(lively music) >> Good afternoon and welcome back to beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada, where we're here live from the show floor, all four days of AWS re:Invent. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined with my co-host Dave Vellante. Dave, how you doing? >> Good. Beautiful and chilly Las Vegas. Can't wait to get back to New England where it's warm. >> Balmy, New England this time of year in December. Wow, Dave, that's a bold statement. I am super excited about the conversation that we're going to be having next. And, you know, I'm not even going to tee it up. I just want to bring Dilip on. Dilip, thank you so much for being here. How you doing? >> Savannah, Dave, thank you so much. >> Hey, Dilip. >> Excited to be here. >> It's joy to have you. So, you have been working at Amazon for about 20 years. >> Almost. Almost. >> Yes. >> Feels like 20, 19 1/2. >> Which is very exciting. You've had a lot of roles. I'm going to touch on some of them, but you just came over to AWS from the physical retail side. Talk to me about that. >> Yup, so I've been to Amazon for 19 1/2 years. Done pricing, supply chain. I was Jeff Bezos technical advisor for a couple years. >> Casual name drop. >> Casual name drop. >> Savannah: But a couple people here for that name before. >> Humble brag, hashtag. And then I, for the last several years, I was leading our physical retail initiatives. We just walk out Amazon One, bringing convenience to physical spaces. And then in August, with like as those things were getting a lot of traction and we were selling to third parties, we felt that it would be better suited in AWS. And, but along with that, there was also another trend that's been brewing, which is, you know, companies have loved building on AWS. They love the infrastructure services, but increasingly, they're also asking us to build applications that are higher up in the stack. Solving key, turnkey business problems. Just walk out Amazon One or examples of that, Amazon Connect. We just recently announced supply chain, so now there's a bevy interesting services all coming together, higher up in the stack for customers. So it's an exciting time. >> It was interesting that you're able to, you know, transfer from that retail. I mean, normally, in historically, if you're within an industry, retail, manufacturing, automotive whatever. You were kind as locked in a little bit. >> Dilip: Siloed a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Because they had their own, your own value chain. And I guess, data has changed that maybe, that you can traverse now. >> Yeah, if you think about the things that we did, even when we were in retail, the tenants was less about the industries and more about how can we bring convenience to physical spaces? The fact that you don't like to wait in line is no more like likely, you know, five years from now than it is today. So, it's a very durable tenant, but it's equally applicable whether you're in a grocery store, a convenience store, a stadium, an airport. So it actually transcends any, and like supply chain, think of supply chain. Supply chain isn't, you know, targeted to any one particular industry. It has broad applicability. So these things are very, you know, horizontally applicable. >> Anything that makes my life easier, I'm down. >> Savannah: We're all here for the easy button. We've been talking about it a bit this week. I'm in. And the retail store, I mean, I'm in San Francisco. I've had the experience of going through. Very interesting and seamless journey, honestly. It's very exciting. So tell us a little bit more about the applications group at AWS. >> Yup. So as I said, you know, we are, the applications group is a combination of several services. You know, we have communication developer services, which is the ability to add simple email service or video and embed video, voice chat using a chime SDK. In a higher up in the stack, we are taking care of things that IT administrators have to deal with where you can provision an entire desktop with the workspaces or provide a femoral access to it. And then as you go up even higher up in the stack, you have productivity applications like AWS Wicker, which we just did GA, you know, last week in AWS Clean Rooms which we announced as a service in preview. And then you have, you know, Connect, which is our cloud contact center, AWS supply chain. Just walk out Amazon One, it just feels like we're getting started. >> Just a couple things going on. >> So, clean rooms. Part of the governance play, part of data sharing. Can you explain, you know, we were talking offline, but I remember back in the disk drive days. We were in a clean room, they'd show you the clean room, you couldn't go near it unless you had a hazmat suit on. So now you're applying that to data. Explain that concept. >> Yeah, so the companies across, you know, financial services or healthcare, advertising, they all want to be able to combine and pull together data`sets with their partners in order to get these collaborative insights. The problem is either the data's fragmented, it's siloed or you have, you know, data governance issues that's preventing them from sharing. And the key requirement is that they want to be able to share this data without exposing any of the underlying data. Clean rooms are always emerged as a solution to that, but the problem with that is that they're hard to maintain. They're expensive. You have to write complex privacy queries. And if you make a mistake, you risk exposing the same data that you've been, you know, studiously trying to protect. >> Trying to protect. >> You know, take advertising as an industry, as an example. You know, advertisers care about, is my ad effective? But it turns out that if you're an advertiser and let's say you're a Nike or some other advertiser and your pop, you know, you place an ad on the website. Well, you want to stop showing the ad to people who have already purchased the product. However, people who purchased the product,- >> Savannah: It happens all the time. >> that purchasing data is not accessible to them easily. But if you could combine those insights, you know, the publishers benefit, advertisers benefits. So AWS Clean Rooms is that service that allows you very easily to be able to collaborate with a group of folks and then be able to gain these collaborative insights. >> And the consumers benefit. I mean, how many times you bought, you search it. >> It happens all the time. >> They know. And like, I just bought that guys, you know? >> Yeah, no, exactly. >> Four weeks. >> And I'm like, you don't need to serve me that, you know? And we understand the marketing backend. And it's just a waste of money and energy and resources. I mean, we're talking about sustainability as well. I don't think supply chain has ever had a hotter moment than it's had the last two and a half years. Tell me more about the announcement. >> Yup, so super excited about this. As you know, as you said, supply chains have always been very critical and very core for companies. The pandemic exacerbated it. So, ours way of sort of thinking about supply chains is to say that, you know, companies have taken, over the years many, like dozens, like millions and millions of dollars of investment in building their own supply chains. But the problem with supply chains is that the reason that they're not as functional as they could be is because of the lack of visibility. Because they're strung together very many disparate systems, that lack of visibility affects agility. And so, our approach in it was to say that, well, if we could have folks use their existing supply chain what can we do to improve the investment on the ROI of what they're getting? By creating a layer on top of it, that provides them that insights, connects all of these disparate data and then provides them insights to say, well, you know, here's where you overstock, here's where you under stock. You know, this is the, you know, the carbon emission impact of being able to transfer something. So like rather without requiring people to re-platform, what's the way that we can add value in it? And then also build upon Amazon's, you know, years of supply chain experience, to be able to build these predictive analytics for customers. >> So, that's a good, I like that you started with the why. >> Yes. >> Right now, what is it? It's an abstraction layer and then you're connecting into different data points. >> Yes, that's correct. >> Injecting ML. >> Feel like you can pick in, like if you think about supply chain, you can have warehouse management systems, order management systems. It could be in disparate things. We use ML to be able to bring all of this disparate data in and create our unified data lake. Once you have that unified data lake, you can then run an insights layer on top of it to be able to say, so that as the data changes, supply chain is not a static thing. Data's constantly changing. As the data's changing, the data lake now reflects the most up-to-date information. You can have alerts and insights set up on it to say that, what are the kinds of things that you're interested in? And then more importantly, supply chain and agility is about communication. In order to be able to make certain things happen, you need to be able to communicate, you need to make sure that everyone's on the same page. And we allow for a lot of the communication and collaboration tools to be built within this platform so that you're not necessarily leaving to go and toggle from one place to the other to solve your problems. >> And in the pie chart of how people spend their time, they're spending a lot less time communicating and being proactive. >> That's correct. >> And getting ahead of the curve. They're spending more time trying to figure out actually what's going on. >> Yes. >> And that's the problem that you're going to solve. >> Well, and it ensures that the customer at the other end of that supply chain experience is going to have their expectations managed in terms of when their good might get there or whatever's going to happen. >> Exactly. >> I feel like that expectation management has been such a big part of it. Okay, I just have to ask because I'm very curious. What was it like advising Jeff? >> Quite possibly the best job that I've ever had. You know, he's a fascinating individual. >> Did he pay you to say that? >> Nope. But I would've, like, I would've done it for like, it's remarkable seeing how he thinks and his approach to problem solving. It is, you know, you could be really tactical and go very deep. You could be extremely strategic. And to be able to sort of move effortlessly between those two is a unique skill. I learned a lot. >> Yeah, absolutely. So what made you want to evolve your career at Amazon after that? 'Cause I see on your LinkedIn, you say, it was the best job you ever had. With curiosity? >> Yeah, so one of the things, so the role is designed for you to be able to transition to something new. >> Savannah: Oh, cool. >> So after I finished that role, we were just getting into our foray with physical stores. And the idea between physical stores is that, you and I as consumers, we all have a lot of choices for physical stores. You know, there's a lot of options, there's a lot of formats. And so the last thing we wanted to do is come up with another me too offering. So, our approach was that what can we do to improve convenience in physical stores? That's what resulted in just walk out to Amazon Go. That's what resulted in Amazon One, which is another in a fast, convenient, contactless way to pay using the power of your palm. And now, what started in Amazon retail is now expanded to several third parties in, you know, stadiums, convention centers, airports. >> Airport, I just had, was in the Houston airport and got to do a humanless checkout. >> Dilip: Exactly. >> And actually in Honolulu a couple weeks ago as well too. Yeah, so we're going to see more and more of this. >> Yes. >> So what Amazon, I think has over a million employees. A lot of those are warehouse employees. But what advice would you give to somebody who's somewhere inside of Amazon, maybe they're on AWS, maybe they're Amazon. What advice would you give somebody inside that's maybe, you know, hey, I've been at this job for five, six years, three, four years, whatever it is. I want to do something else. And there's so much opportunity inside Amazon, right? What would you advise them? >> My single advice, which is actually transferable and I use it for myself is choose something that makes you a little uncomfortable. >> Dave: Get out of your comfort zone. >> It's like, you got to do that. It's like, it's not the easiest thing to hear, but it's also the most satisfying. Because almost every single time that I've done it for myself, it's resulted in like, you don't really know what the answer is. You don't really know exactly where you're going to end up, but the process and the journey through it, if you experience a little bit of discomfort constantly, it makes you non complacent. It makes you sort of not take the job, sort of in a stride. You have to be on it to do it. So that's the advice that I would give anyone. >> Yeah, that's good. So something that's maybe adjacent and maybe not completely foreign to you, but also something that, you know, you got to go dig a little bit and learn. >> You're planning a career change over here, Dave? >> No, I know a lot of people in Amazon are like, hey, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do next. I mean, I love it here. I live by the LPS, you know, but, and there's so much to choose from. >> It is, you know, when I joined in 2003, there were so many things that we were sort of doing today. None of those existed. It's a fascinating company. And the evolution, you could be in 20 different places and the breadth of the kinds of things that, you know, the Amazon experience provides is timeless. It's fascinating. >> And, you know, you look at a company like Amazon, and, you know, it's so amazing. You look at this ecosystem. I've been around- >> Even a show floor. >> I've been around a lot of time. And the show floor says it all. But I've seen a lot of, you know, waves. And each subsequent wave, you know, we always talk about how many companies were in the Fortune 1000 and aren't anymore. And, but the leaders, you know, survive and they thrive. And I think it's fascinating to try to better understand the culture that enables that. You know, you look at a company like Microsoft that was irrelevant and then came back. You know, even IBM was on death store for a while and they come back and so they. And so, but Amazon just feels, you know, at the moment you feel like, "Oh wow, nothing can stop this machine." 'Cause everybody's trying to disrupt Amazon and then, you know, only the paranoid survive, all that stuff. But it's not like, past is not prologue, all right? So that's why I asked these questions. And you just said that a lot of the services today that although the ideas didn't even exist, I mean, walkout. I mean, that's just amazing. >> I think one of the things that Amazon does really well culturally is that they create the single threaded leadership. They give people focus. If you have to get something done, you have to give people focus. You can't distract them with like seven different things and then say that, oh, by the way, your eighth job is to innovate. It just doesn't work that way. It's like it's hard. Like it can be- >> And where were the energy come from that? >> Exactly. And so giving people that single threaded focus is super important. >> Frank Slootman, the CEO of Snowflake, has a great quote. He wrote on his book. He said, "If you got 14 priorities, you got none." And he asks,- >> Well said. >> he challenges people. If you had to give up everything and do only one thing for the next 365 days, what would that be? It's a really hard question to answer. >> I feel like as we're around New Year's resolution times. I mean when we thinking about that, maybe we can all share our one thing. So, Dilip, you've been with the the applications team for five months. What's coming up next? >> Well, as I said, you know, it feels like it's still day one for applications. If you think about the things, the news that we introduced and the several services that we introduced, it has applicability across a variety of horizontal industries. But then we're also feeling that there's considerable vertical applications that can be built for specific things. Like, it could be in advertising, it could be in financial services, it could be in manufacturing. The opportunities are endless. I think the notion of people wanting applications higher up in the stack and a little more turnkey solutions is also, it's not new for us, but it's also new and creative too. You know, AWS has traditionally been doing. >> So again, this relates to what we were sort of talking about before. And maybe, this came from Jazzy or maybe it came from Bezos. But you hear a lot, it's okay to be misunderstood or if we were misunderstood for a long time. So when people hear up the stack, they think, when you think about apps, you know, in the last 10 years it was taking on-prem and bringing it into the cloud. Okay, you saw that with CREM, email, CRM, service management, you know, data warehouses, et cetera. Amazon is thinking about this in a different way. It's like you're looking at the world saying, okay, how can we improve whatever? Workflows, people's lives, doing something that's not been done before? And that seems to be the kind of applications that you guys are thinking about building. >> Yeah. >> And that's unique. It's not just, okay, we're going to take something on-prem put it in the cloud. Been there, done that. That S-curve is sort of flattening now. But there's a new S-curve which is completely new workflows and innovations and processes that we really haven't thought about yet. Or you're thinking about, I presume. >> Yeah. Having said that, I'd also like to sort of remind folks that when you consider the, you know, the entire spend, the portion of workloads that are running in the cloud is a teeny tiny fraction. It's like less than 5%, like 4% or something like that. So it's a very, there's still plenty of things that can sort of move to the cloud. But you're right that there is another trend of where in the stack and the types of applications that you can provide as well. >> Yeah, new innovation that haven't well thought of yet. >> So, Dilip, we have a new tradition here on theCUBE at re:Invent. Where we're looking for your 30 minute Instagram reel, your hot take, biggest key theme, either for you, your team, or just general vibe from the show. >> General vibe from the show. Well, 19 1/2 years at Amazon, this is actually my first re:Invent, believe it or not. This is my, as a AWS employee now, as re:Invent with like launching services. So that's the first. I've been to re:Invent before, but as an attendee rather than as a person who's, you know, a contributing number of the workforce. >> Working actually? >> If you will. >> Actually doing your job. >> And so I'm just amazed at the energy and the breadth. And the, you know, from the partners to the customers to the diversity of people who are coming here from everywhere. I had meetings from people in New Zealand. Like, you know, the UK, like customers are coming at us from like very many different places. And it's fascinating for me to see. It's new for me as well given, you know, some of my past experience. But this is a, it's been a blast. >> People are pumped. >> People are pumped. >> They can't believe the booth traffic. Not only that quality. >> Right. All of our guests have talked about that. >> Like, yeah, you know, we're going to throw half of these leads away, but they're saying no, I'm having like really substantive conversations with business people. This is, I think, my 10th re:Invent. And the first one was mostly developers. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And, you know, so. Now it's a lot more business people, a lot of developers too. >> Yeah. >> It's just. >> The community really makes it. Dilip, thank you so much for joining us today on theCube. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're fantastic. I could ask you a million questions. Be sure and tell Jeff that we said hi. >> Will do. >> Savannah: Next time you guys are hanging out. And thank all of you. >> You want to go into space? >> Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. I'm perhaps the most space obsessed on the show. And with that, we will continue our out of this world coverage shortly from fabulous Las Vegas where we are at AWS re:Invent. It is day four with Dave Vellante. I'm Savannah Peterson and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (lively music)

>>Welcome to the Cube's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by aws. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome my next guest, Courtney Kissler joins me, the SVP of tech and CTO at Zli. Courtney, welcome to the program. >>Thank you. Thanks for having me. >>Our pleasure to have you Talk to me a little bit about your career path in tech and about your role that you're doing right now. >>Yeah, so I have spent most of my career in retail. So I spent 14 years at Nordstrom, which is where I learned a lot about what it takes to be, you know, a technology leader. And really that's where I started kind of my cloud transformation journey. And then after 14 years at Nordstrom, I ended up going to Starbucks as the VP of retail technology there. And really enjoyed working at a global scale, very different, learned a lot there as well. And also had cloud transformation there too. And then I went to Nike as the VP of Digital Platform Engineering and learned a lot there as well. Different scale and very different retail situation. And two years ago, almost two years, it'll be two years in January, I joined Zuli as SVP and cto. And what I love about Zulily is, I mean, we were really born digital first. And so cloud is a big part of our ecosystem and I love that we are innovators, we are data driven, we're about experimentation, and we leverage cloud in a variety of ways. >>I love that you have an amazing pedigree background of companies that you've worked for. I can imagine all the experiences that you've had and how they've shaped you into the leader that you are today. What are some, for people that are either in maybe starting a little bit farther back in their careers or early in tech, what are some of the recommendations that you have for those that really want to grow their career and invest? What do you, what do you tell them? >>Yeah, so I would say the biggest piece of advice I can give is be a lifelong learner. The thing about technology is the technology is gonna change and evolve, and the way you respond and react to that is what's critical. And so figuring out how to be somebody who could be a problem solver and learning all the time. I, I try really hard to surround myself with people who I can learn from and really grow and, and how might I continue to engage in the technology, you know, landscape, but really make sure that I have a way to continuously learn. >>That's so important to be able to, to have the confidence to raise your hand and say, I, I wanna try something new, or I don't understand something. You know, we, I, I was reading this some stats recently. I want women in tech and I saw that women won't apply for a job, say on LinkedIn unless they meet 100% of the job requirements. Whereas men will apply if they meet only 40%. And I think more women need to know and others that you don't have to meet all those job requirements. There's so much on the job learning. You have to have the appetite, you have to have good mentors, good sponsors, but raise your hand, right. Lean into the conversation. There's amazing things that can happen as a result. >>Absolutely. And that, I love that you touched on, you know, the leaning in and also like this is an industry term, it's not mine, but I love it. Called have a personal board of directors, have people who can help you navigate and network. I would say that's one of the biggest learnings that I had throughout my career was build a community and lean on that community. And often the encouragement that you get from that will also put you in a position to be okay with not having all of the boxes checked before you pursue your next opportunity. >>Right. I love that you talked about having a personal board of directors. I wish, I wish that's advice you probably do too. That, that we had 20 years ago when we started in our careers. But it's, it's such important advice. You know, technology makes it so easy for us to connect these days, whether, you know, you're on Facebook or Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter, leverage that network, but really create that personal board of directors, I think is sage advice for anybody at any stage in their career. I don't think you have to be a newbie to be able to, to see the value in that. I think there can be value in it along the way. I'd love to hear some of your successes where you've solved problems related to cloud in your career. Tell me about some of those. Yeah, >>Yeah, so one just, you know, brief set of context. So I started my career in security infrastructure and operations. So I was learning how to support data centers. I mean, that was part of the landscape when I started my career. And then this thing called the cloud came in to like the environment. And all of us, I think who started as infrastructure, whether you are a CIS admin or those type of traditional roles, thought, what is this gonna do to me? Like as a, as someone who's been in infrastructure for a long time. And what I really appreciated about the leadership at Nordstrom is we said, let's embrace it. Let's figure out how to learn and let's figure out what this might look like for us. And at the time we weren't, we weren't in the cloud, but we said we are going to be, you know, and a lot of companies say this, you know, cloud first. Now it's easy to say, >>Right, >>What does it look like internally? And I think there's multiple dimensions. One is, are you really designing and architecting your applications and capabilities to take advantage of the cloud? I will share that there was a lot of debate internally, and I think a lot of organizations do this where they say, avoid vendor lock in, make sure you have flexibility and it's important to be intentional about the use of cloud. Also super important to leverage the capabilities because one of the things that, you know, I believe in is that cloud can create a way for you to free up your technologists mind share to focus on things that are more strategic. And over time, cloud has become commodity. It's something that you can adopt and leverage to avoid spending time on provisioning servers and doing things that are now automated and part of the cloud offering. >>Right. >>Yeah, >>Go ahead. Sorry. >>Oh, I was gonna say, and also I think skill. So it does take a different skillset. So I do think it's important for organizations to invest and also lean on your cloud partner. So one thing I really appreciate about AWS is that there's a lot of learning and lots of ways to get certified and understand how to be successful in a cloud environment. So I think it's important to also know that, that there is another skill set that needs to be developed in order to be successful. >>What are some of the, the innovations that excite you that are coming down the pipe with respect to cloud that you may adopt at Zil? >>Yeah, that's a great question. You know, we're constantly looking at, you know, what can we, what, what can we take advantage of? And I think what I get excited about is really the ongoing innovation when it comes to data driven insights and how do you incorporate the knowledge of your customers and the broader kind of, I'll call it retail landscape, into continuing to put relevant experiences in front of your customer. And I think doing that at scale is, I mean, you can achieve it in other ways. I think a great way to achieve it is leveraging cloud and the, the scale and performance and speed to, I'll call it like speed to data insights. Like you can get so much out of that and learn. And so for me, I think it's really anything that has to do with data. >>Every company has to be a data company these days. Whether you're in retail or automotive or or manufacturing, you have to become a data driven company. You have to be able to derive those insights you talked about, you know, in the retail space, I always think, oh, I'm such a demanding consumer because I, I've been trained thanks to the cloud that I could get whatever I want, whatever I'm looking for. And these companies will start to learn me in a non-car way, hopefully, and serve up relevant personalized content that, oh yeah, that's right. I need one of those. We ex we have that expectation in our personal lives and I think we bring it into our professional lives as well. And so every company needs to be able to, to be that data company, to deliver what the end user is more and more these days, expecting that the demands are gonna be met. >>Absolutely. And I, I really appreciated what you said too about there's that innovation and expectation of your customer. There's also some really amazing innovation that can happen for your internal developer community, leveraging the cloud. There's tooling, there's data driven insights as well. Like how long is it taking us to deploy software? Well, that's a learning moment. And often cloud can help you solve for speed to delivery, having high confidence in your ability to deliver, because many of the cloud tools allow you to, you know, do a canary deployment. I'm only gonna expose this to a percentage of my customers and then I'll bring it live to everybody else. There's ways to leverage cloud technology that also makes it innovative for the internal developer. And you might even say internal customers. >>That's a great point. I always think the, the internal customer experience and the external customer experience are linked strongly hand in hand. And, and one of the things that we're seeing more and more, I think a lot this year is how influential the developer role is becoming in the, in the decisions and the technologies and what to deliver to the end user customers. So that internal experience and external experience need to be hand in hand for them both to be successful. >>Agree. And you hear a lot of movement in the industry around like platforms and developer experience and DevOps is, is an area that I'm super passionate about. And really ultimately what it is, is how are we all delivering value as fast as possible to our customers with high quality? Cuz you know, if you're doing, if you're doing speed right, you're not compromising quality. And I think this again, is a recognition of where the industry has evolved to. You can use cloud as a platform to accelerate those capabilities. >>Yes, it needs to be that accelerant really for things to be successful. I'd love to get your thoughts on over the last few years, what are some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the workforce and innovation that come to mind? >>Wow. So I think, you know, what I've seen is really the shift in, you mentioned, you know, data, every company is data driven. So the expectation of technology is to also be data driven. And I often think sometimes that many technologists think of, of technology's too complicated. Like we don't, it's too hard to be data driven. And in reality we were kind of wired for being data driven. And so infusing that into how we think about everything we do and making sure that that's part of kind of the, the DNA of the organization. I'm also a big believer in observability. So like really having good knowledge of how are the things that you're building really performing? And that's another area where cloud can help. Where you can, you can really instrument the end to end journey and have transparency to that so that your, your teams are set up for success. They can understand the help, they can see it quickly, and they can respond quickly. >>You know, I always think the horizon for technology is, is infinite. The innovation, the capabilities we need to have good strong teams, diverse teams, teams that bring in different thoughts, different perspectives, different backgrounds. My last question for you is, is on diversity in terms of the tech workforce, what are some of the things that you are seeing and maybe some advice you would give for organizations to be able to really embody diversity, equity and inclusion? >>Yeah, so I'm a big believer in, in inclusion, like I think that it often doesn't get as much focus as it should. So it's, it's very similar to a customer funnel. If you attract a bunch of diverse talent but you can't retain them, then you're gonna continue to have a challenge. So my, my focus is often on am I creating an environment where diverse talent can thrive? Now, Zuli and our broader company Q rate, like we believe passionately in diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it shows up in everything we do. So I I also think actions matter. So it's one thing to say it's important, but it's it like leaders need to demonstrate the commitment. So we've done some pretty, i, I consider to be investments in how do we continue develop our internal talent and grow diverse leaders and leaders from any position. It doesn't mean that you move into management. If we have leaders that are in engineering roles and product management roles, it's like, how do we continue to invest and also create inclusive leadership opportunities where our leaders are learning what does it look like to operate as an inclusive leader? >>So important. But to your point, action, action is so important. Sounds like you guys are doing an amazing job at Zoo Lil, not only in terms of embracing cloud first being born in the cloud, but also from a DEI perspective. I, I love that. Courtney, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us, your recommendations and thoughts. I know the audience found a lot of value in it, as did I. >>Thanks again for having me. >>Oh, my pleasure. For Courtney Kissler, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube Special Program series, women of the Cloud, brought to you by aws. Thanks for watching.

>>mhm. >>Good morning. Live from Las Vegas. That snowflake Summit 22. Lisa Martin With Day Volonte David's Great. We have three wall to wall days of coverage at Snowflake Summit 22 this year. >>Yeah, it's all about data and bringing data to applications. And we've got some big announcements coming this week. Super exciting >>collaboration around data. We are excited to welcome our first two guests before the keynote. We have seen Nielsen in S V. P of data and Analytics Service offering head at emphasis. And Chris Dignan alumni is back with us to chief revenue officer at stuff like guys. Great to have you on the programme. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much. So he'll tell us what's going on with emphasis and snowflake and the partnership. Give us all that good stuff. >>Yeah, No, I think with the convergence of, uh, data digital and computing economy, um, you know that convergence is creating so much possibilities for for customers, uh, snowflake and emphases working together to help our customers realise the vision and these possibilities that are getting driven. We share a very strategic partnership where we are thinking ahead for our customers in terms of what, uh, we can do together in order to build solutions in order to bring out the expertise that is needed for such transformations and also influencing the thinking, Um, and the and the point of view in the market together so that, you know there is there is cohesive approach to doing this transformation and getting to those business outcomes. So it's a It's a partnership that's very successful and its strategic for for our customers, and we continue to invest for the market. >>Got some great customer. Some of my favourite CVS, Nike, William Sanoma. Gotta love that one. Chris talked to us about the snowflake data cloud. What makes it so unique and compelling in the market? >>Well, I think our customers, really they are going through digital transformation today, and they're moving from on premise to the cloud and historically speaking, there just hasn't been the right tool set to help them do that. I think snowflake brings to the table an opportunity for them to take all of their data and take it and and allow it to go from one cloud to the other so they can sit on a W s it can sit on Azure can sit on G, C, P and I can move around from cloud to cloud, and they can do analytics on top of that. >>So data has been traditionally really hard. And we saw that in the big data movement. But we learned a lot. Uh, and AI has been, you know, challenging. So what are you seeing with with customers? What are they struggling with? And how are you guys helping them? >>Yeah. So if you look at the customer journey, they have invested in a number of technologies in the past and are now at a juncture where they need to transform that landscape. They have the challenges of legacy debt that they need to, you know, get rid of or transform. They have the challenges of really bringing, you know, a cohesive understanding within the enterprise as to what these possibilities are for their business. Given the strategy that they are pursuing, um, business and I t cycles are not necessarily aligned. Um, you have the challenge of very fragmented data landscape that they have created over a period of time. How do you, you know, put all these together and work with a specific outcome in mind so that you're not doing transformation for the purpose of transformation. But to be able to actually drive new business models, new data driven products and services ability for you to collaborate with your partners and create unique competitive advantage in the market. And how do you bring those purposes together with the transformation that that's really happening? And and that's where you know our our customers, um, you know, grapple with the challenges of bringing it together. So, >>Chris, how do you see? Because it was talking about, uh, legacy that I think technical debt. Um, you kind of started out making the data warehouse easier. Then this data cloud thing comes out. You're like, Oh, that's an interesting vision and all of a sudden it's way more than vision. You get this huge ecosystem you're extending, we're gonna hear the announcements this morning. We won't. We won't spill the beans, but but really expanding the data cloud. So it's hard to keep up with with where you're at. So I think modernisation, right? So how do you think about modernisation? How are your customers thinking about it? And what's the scope of Snowflake. >>Well, you know, I think historically, you asked about AI and Ml and, you know, in the A I world historically, they've lacked data, and I think because we're the data cloud, we're bringing data, you know, and making it available and democratising it for everybody. And then, you know, partners like emphasis are actually helping us bring, you know, applications and new business models to to the table to our customers and their innovating on top of the data that we already have in the Snowflake Data Club. >>Chris, can you talk about some of the verticals where you guys are successful with emphasis that the three that I mentioned are retailers, But I know that finance, healthcare and life sciences are are huge for smooth, like talk to me, give us a perspective of the verticals that are coming to you. Guys saying help us out with transport. >>You know, I'll give you just an example. So So in the in the retail space, for example, Kraft Heinz is a is a joint customer of ours. And, you know, they've been all in on on snowflakes, Data Cloud and one of our big customers as well it is is Albertsons, and Albertans realises, Oh my gosh, I have all this information around the consumer in in the grocery stores and Kraft Heinz. They want access to that, and they actually can make supply chain decisions a lot faster if they have access to it. So with snowflakes data sharing, we can actually allow them to share data. Albertans share data directly with Kraft, Heinz and Kraft. Heinz can actually make supply chain decisions in real time so that these are some of the stuff that emphasis and stuff like help our customers self. >>So traditionally, the data pipeline goes through some very highly specialised individuals, whether the data engineer, the data scientists and data analyst. So that example that you just gave our organisation you mentioned before democratisation. So democratisation needs to be as a businessperson, I actually can get access to the data. So in that example that you gave between Kraft, Heinz and and and Albertson, is it the the highly hyper specialised teams sharing that data? Or is it actually extending into the line of business focus? >>That's so that's the interesting part for us is I think, snowflake, we just recently reorganise my sales team this year into verticals, and the reason we did that is customers no longer want to talk to us about speeds and feeds of how fast my database goes. They want to actually talk about business outcomes. How do I solve for demand forecasting? How do I supply fix my supply chain issues? Those are things. Those are the. That's how we're aligning with emphasis. So well is they've been doing this for a long time, Can only we haven't. And so we need their help on getting us to the next level of of the sales motion and talking to our customers on solving these business challenges in >>terms of that next level. So no question for you. Where are the customer conversations happening? At what level? I mean, we've seen such dramatic changes in the market in the last couple of years. Now we're dealing with inflation rising interest rates. Ukraine. Are you seeing the conversations in terms of building data platforms rising up the C suite? As every company recognises, we're going to be a data company. We're not gonna be a business. >>Absolutely. And I think all the macroeconomic forces that you talked about that's working on the enterprises globally is actually leading them to think about how to future proof their business models. Right? And there are tonnes of learning that they've hired in the last two or three years and digitising in embracing more digital models. The conversation with the customers have really pivoted towards business outcome. It is a C suite conversation. It is no longer just an incremental change for the for the companies they recognise. That data has been touted as a strategic asset for a long time, but I think it's taking a purpose and a meaning as to what it does for for the customers, the conversations are around industry verticals. You know, what are the specific challenges and opportunities that the the enterprises have, uh, and how you realise those and these cuts across multiple different layers. You know, we're talking about how your democratised data, which in our point of view, is absolute, must in terms of putting a foundation that doesn't take super specialised people to be able to run every operation and every bit of data that you process we have invested in building autonomous data and a state that can process data as it comes in without any manual intervention and take it all the way to consumption but also investing in those industry solutions. Along with snowflake, we launched the healthcare and life Sciences solution. We launched the only channel for retail and CPG. And these are great examples of how Snowflake Foundation enables democratisation on one side but also help solve business problems. In fact, with Snowflake, we have a very, uh, special partnership because our point of view on data economy is about how you connect with the network partners externally, and snowflake brings native capabilities. On this, we leverage that to Dr Exchanges for our customers and one of the services company in the recycling business. Uh, we're actually building and in exchange, which will allow the data points from multiple different sources and partners to come together. So they have a better understanding of their customers, their operations, the field operations and things >>like building a data ecosystem. Yes. Alright, They they Is it a two sided market place where you guys are observers and providing the the technology and the process, you know, guidance. What's your role in that? >>Yeah. So, um, we were seeing their revolution coming? Uh, two stages. Maybe even more. Um, customers are comfortable building an ecosystem. That's kind of private for them. Which means that they know who they are sharing data with. They know what the data is getting used for. And how do you really put governance on this? So that on one side you can trust it on the other side. There is a good use of that data, Uh, and not, uh, you know, compromise on their quality or privacy and some of the other regulations. But we do see this opening up to the two sided market places as well. Uh, some of the industry's lend themselves extremely well for that kind of play. We have seen that happening in trading area. We've seen that happen. And, uh, you know, the credit checks and things like that which are usually open for, you know, those kind of ecosystem. But the conversations and the and the programmes are really leading towards towards that in the market. >>You know, Lisa, one of things I wrote about this weekend is I was decided to come to stuff like summit and and see one of the, you know, thesis I have is that we're going to move not just beyond analytics, including analytics, but also building data products that can be monetised and and I'm hoping we're going to see some of that here. Are you seeing that Christian in the customer? It's It's >>a great question, David. So So we have You know, I just thought of it as as he was talking about. We have a customer who's a very large customer of ours who's in the financial services space, and they handle roughly 40% of the credit card transactions that happen in the US and they're coming to us and saying they want to go from zero in data business today to a $2 billion business over the next five years, and they're leaning on us to help them do that. And one of the things that's exciting for me is they're coming to us not saying Hey, how do you do it? You know, they're saying, Hey, we want to build a consumption model on top of snowflake and we want to use you as the delivery mechanism and the billing mechanism to help us actually monetise that data. So yes, the answer is. You know, I I used to sell to, you know, chief Data Officers and and see IOS. Now I'm talking to VPs of sales and I'm talking to chief operating officers and I'm talking to CEOs about how do we actually create a new revenue stream? And that's just I mean, it's exhilarating to have those conversations. That's >>data products. They don't have to worry about the infrastructure that comes from the cloud. They don't have to worry about the governance, as Senior was saying, Just put >>it in stuff like Just >>put stuff like that. So I call it The super cloud is kind of a, you know, a funny little tongue in cheek. But it's happening. It's this layer. It's not just multiple clouds. You see a lot of your critical competitors adjacent competitors saying, Hey, we're now running in in Google or we're running in Azure. We've been running on AWS. This is different. This is different, isn't it? It's a cloud that floats above the The infrastructure of the hyper scale is, and that's that's a new era. I think >>it's a new error. I think they're you know, I think the hyper scholars want to, you know, keep us as a as a data warehouse and and we're not. The customers are not letting them so So I think that's you know where emphasis kind of saw the light early on. And they were our innovation partner of the year, uh, this past year and they're helping us in our customers innovate, >>but you're uniquely qualified to do that where? I don't think it's the hyper scholars agenda. At least I never say never with the hyper scale is, but yeah, they have focused on providing infrastructure. And, yeah, they have databases and other tools. But that that cross cloud that continuum to your point, talking to VPs of sales and how do you generate revenue? That maybe, is a conversation that they have, but not explicitly as to how to actually do it in a data >>cloud. That's right. I mean, those and those are the Those are the fun conversations because you're you're saying, Hey, we can actually create a new revenue stream. And how can we actually help you solve our joint customers problems? So, yes, it is. Well, >>that's competitive differentiation for businesses. I mean, this is, as I mentioned Every company has to be a data company. If they're not, they're probably not going to be around much longer. They've got to be able to to leverage a data platform like snowflake, to find insights, be able to act on them and create value new services, new products to stay competitive, to stay ahead of the competition. That's no longer nice to have >>100%. I mean, I think they're they're all scared. I mean, you know, like if you look in the financial services space, they look at some of the fintech, as you know, the giant £800 gorillas look at the small fintech has huge threats to the business, and they're coming to us and say, How can we innovate our business now? And they're looking at us as the the innovator, and they're looking at emphasis to help them do that. So I think these are These are incredible times. >>So the narrative on Wall Street, of course, this past earnings season was consumption and who has best visibility and and they they were able to snowflake had a couple of large customers dial down consumption, some consumer facing. Here's the thing. If you're selling a data product for more than it costs you to make. If you dial down consumption in the future, you're gonna dial down revenue. So that's it's going to become less and less discretionary over time. And that, to me, is the next error. That's really exciting. >>The key, The key there is understanding the unit of measure. I think that's the number. One question that we get from customers is what is the unit of measure that we care about, that we want to monetise because to your point, it costs you more to make the product. You're not going to sell it right? And so I think that those are the things that the energy that we're spending with customers today is advising them, jointly advising them on how to actually monetise the specific, you know, unit of measure that they care >>about because when they get the Amazon bill or the snowflake bill, the CFO starts knocking the door. The answer has to be well, look at all the revenue that we generated and all the operating profit and the free cash flow that we drove, and then it's like, Oh, I get it. Keep doing it well, if I'm >>if I'm going on sales calls with the VP of sales and his their sales team, fantastic, right generated helping them generate revenue, right? That's a great conversation >>dynamic. And I think the adoption is really driven through the value, uh, that they can drive in their ecosystem. Their products are similar to products and services that these companies sell. And if you're embedding data inside Syria into your products services, that makes you that much more competitive in the market and drive value for your stakeholders. And that's essentially the future business model that we're talking about. On one side, the other one is the agility. Things aren't remaining constant, they are constantly changing, and we talked about some of those forces earlier. All of this is changing. The landscape is changing the the needs in the economy and things like that, and how you adapt to those kind of models in the future and pivoted on data capabilities that lets you identify new opportunities and and create new value. >>Speaking of creating new value last question guys, before we wrap, what's the go to market approach here between the two companies working customers go to get engaged. I imagine both sides. >>Yeah. I mean, the way that partnership looks good to me is is sell with co selling. So So I think, you know, we look at developing joint solutions with emphasis. They've done a wonderful job of leading into our partnership. So, you know, Sue Neill and I have a regular cadence where we talked every quarter, and our sales teams and our partner teams are are all leaning in and co selling. I don't know if you >>have Absolutely, um, you know, we we proactively identify, you know, the opportunities for our customers. And we work together at all levels within, you know, between the two companies to be able to bring a cohesive solution and a proposition for the customers. Really help them understand how to, you know, what is it that they can, um, get to and how you get that journey actually executed. And it's a partnership that works very seamlessly through that entire process, not just upstream when we're selling, but also downstream and we're executing. And we've had tremendous success together and look forward to more. >>Congratulations on that success, guys. Thank you so much for coming on talking about new possibilities with data and AI and sharing some of the impact that the technologies are making. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you. Thank >>you. Thank you So much >>for our guests and a Volonte. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube live in Las Vegas from Snowflake Summit 22 back after the keynote with more breaking news. Mhm, mhm.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome, everyone, to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of the CUBE. We're here to talk about the state of MarTech and AI. We're here with the co-founder and head of AI for Blueshift, Manyam Mallela. Welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you for having me, excited to chat with you. >> Blueshift is a company you've co-founded with a couple other co-founders and you guys have a stellar pedigree going in data AI back before it was fashionable, in the old days, Web 1.0, if you want to call it that. So, you know, we know what you guys have been doing in your careers. Now you got a company on the cutting edge, solving problems for customers as they transition from this new, new way of doing things where users have data and power and control, customers are trying to be more authentic, got walled gardens emerging everywhere but that we're supposed to be away from walled gardens. So there's a whole set of new patterns, new expectations and new behaviors. So all this is challenging, but yet it's an opportunity. So I want to get into it. What is your vision? And what's your view on the MarTech today and AI, and how do you guys fit into that, that story? >> Yeah. Great question, John. We are still in the very early innings of where every digital experience is informed, both creatively from the marketing side of our organization, as well as the AI doing the heavy lifting under the herd to be able to create those experience at scale. And I think today every digital customer and every user out there are leaving a trail of very rich, very frequent interaction data with their brands and organizations that they interact with. You know, if you look at each of us, many, many moments and hours of our digital lives are with these interactions that we do on screens and devices, and that leaves a rich trail of data. And brands that are winning, brands that we want to interact with more, have user privacy and user safety at the center of it. And then they build that authentic connection from there on. And, you know, just like when we log into our favorite streaming shows or streaming applications, we want to see things that are relevant to us. They, in some sense, knowing kind of intimately our preferences or changing taste. And how does a brand or organization react to that but still make room for that authentic connection? >> It's an awesome opportunity. And it's a lot of challenges, and it's just starting, I totally agree. Let me ask you a question, Manyam, if you don't mind. How did you guys come up with Blueshift? I know you guys have been in this game before it was fashionable, so to speak, but you know, solving Web 1.0, 2.0 problems. And then, you know, Walmart Labs, everyone knows the history of Walmart and how fast they were with inventory and how they used data. You have that kind of trajectory. When you saw this opportunity, was it like the team was saying, wow, look at this, it's right in our wheelhouse, or, how did you guys get here, and then how did it all come together? >> Yeah, thanks for offering me an opportunity to share our personal journey. You know, I think prior to starting Blueshift with my co-founders, who I worked with for almost the past 20 years of my life, we were at a company called Kosmix, which was a Silicon Valley, early AI pioneer. We were doing semantics search, and in 2011, Walmart started their Silicon Valley innovation hub, Walmart Labs, with the acquisition of Kosmix. And, you know, we went into Walmart Labs, and until then they were already an e-commerce leader. They had been practicing e-commerce for better part of 12 years prior to that, but they're certainly you know, behind, compared to their peers, right? And the peers to be named! (laughs) But, they saw this lack of what it is that they were doing so well in brick and mortar that they're not able to fully get there on the digital side. And, you know, this was almost a decade ago. And when they brought in our team with a lot of AI and data systems at scale, building things at the cutting edge, you know, we went into it a little bit naively, thinking, you know, hey, we are going to solve this problem for Walmart scale in three months. (laughs) But it took us three years to build those systems of engagement. Despite Walmart having an enormous amount of resources being the number one retailer in the world and the data and the resource at their disposal, we had to rethink a lot of assumptions and the trends that were converging were, you know, uses for interacting with them across multiple formats and channels. And both offline and online, the velocity and complexity of the data was increasing. All the marketing and merchandising teams said even a millisecond delay for me is unconscionable. And how do you get fresh data and activated at the moment of experience, without delay, this significant challenge at scale? And that's what we solve for our organizations. >> It really is the data problem. It's a scale problem. It's all that. And then having the software to have that AI predictive and, you know, it's omnichannel when you think about it, in that retail and that brick and mortar term used for physical space and digital converging. And we saw the pandemic pull forward this same dynamic where events and group behaviors and just interactions were all converging. So this line between physical and digital is now blurred, completely blended, the line between customer experience and marketing has been erased, and you guys are the center of this. What does it mean for the customer? Because the customers out there, your customers, or potential customers. They got problems to solved. They're going all digital cloud-native applications, the digital transformation. This is the new normal, and some are on it, are starting it, some are way behind. What are they- What's the situation with the customers? >> Yeah, that's certainly the maturity of, you know, the, each brand and organization along that, you know, both transformation and from transformation to actually thriving in that ecosystem. And how do we actually win, you know, share of mind and then share of, like, that market that they're looking to does take a while. And, and many are, you know, kind of midway through their journey. I think, there was, initially there is a lot of, you know, push towards let's collect all the data that we can but then, you know, how does the actually data becomes something useful that changes experience for Manyam versus John is really that critical moment. And that moment is when, you know, a lot of things come into place. And if I look at, like, the broader landscape, there are certainly lines of powers like Discovery, like Udacity and LendingTree, and Zumper car pods across all these industries. Who would've thought like, you know, all these industries who you would not think of actually as solving a digital engagement problem are now saying that's the key to our success and our growth. >> Yeah. It's absolutely the number one problem. This is the number one opportunity for all businesses, not just verticals here and there, all verticals. So walk me through your typical customer scenario. You know, what are the challenges that they face? You're in the middle of it, you're solving these problems, what are their challenges that they face and how do you guys solve them? >> Absolutely. So I'll talk through two examples, one from a finance industry, one from online learning, you know, o One of our great customers that we partner with is LendingTree. They offer tens of millions of customers' finance products that span from home loans, students loans, auto loans, credits, all of that. And, and let these people come into their website and collect information that is relevant to the loan that they're considering, but engage them in a way for the next period of time. So if you typically think about engagement, it's not just a one interaction, usually that follows a series of steps an organization has to take to be able to explain all their offerings in a way that is digestible and relevant and personalized to each of those millions of customers and actually have them through the funnel and measure it and report on it and make sure that that is the most relevant to them. So in a finance setting that is about consuming credit products, consuming loan products, consuming reporting products in an online context. I'll give you an example of one of our customers, Udacity. Imagine you are a marketing team of two people, and you are in challenged with, how do you engage 20 million students. You're not going to write 20 million communications that are different for each of those students, certainly. I think you need a system to say what did actually all these students come for? How do I learn what they want at this moment in time? What do they want next? If they actually finished something that they started two months ago, would they be eligible for the right course? Maybe today we are talking about self-driving cars. That's the course that I should bring in front of them. And that's only a small segment of the students but someone else maybe on the media and the production side. How do I personalize the experience so that every single step of the way for that student is, you know, created and delivered at scale? And that's kind of the problem that we solve for our brands, which is they have these millions of touchpoint that are, that they have, how do they bring all their data, very fresh and activated at the moment of action? >> So you guys are creating the 10x marketer. I mean, kind of- >> That's right. That's a very (indistinct)- >> 10X engineer, the famous, you're 10X engineer. >> Right. >> You guys are bringing a lot of heavy lifting to short staffs or folks that don't have a data science team or data engineering team. You're kind of bringing that 10x marketing capability. >> Absolutely. I think that's a great way to put it. I call it the mission impossible, which is, you know, you're signing up for the mission impossible, for every marketing team, it's like, now they're like, they are the product managers they're the data scientists, they're the analysts. They are the creator, you know, author, all of that combined into a role. And now you're entrusted with this really massive challenge. And how do you actually get there? And it's that 10x marketer who are embracing these technologies to get there. >> Well, I'm looking forward to challenging though because I can imagine you get a lot of skeptics out there. I don't believe you. It sounds too good to be true. And I want to get to that in the next segment, but I want to ask you about the state of MarTech and AI specifically. MarTech traditionally has been on Web 2.0 standards, DNS, URLs. It's the naming system of the internet. It's the internet infrastructure. So- >> Right. what needs to change to make that scale higher? Does, is there any new abstraction or any kind of opportunities for doing things in just managing you know, tokens that need to be translated? It's hard to do cross to- I mean, there's a lot of problems with Web 2.0 legacy that kind of holds back the promise of high availability of data, privacy, AI, more machine learning, more exposure of data. Can you share your vision on this next layer? >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of excitement about what Web3 would bring us there in the very early innings of that possibility. But the challenge of, you know, data that leads to authentic experience still remains the same whichever metaverse we might actually interact with a brand name, like, you know, even if I go to a Nike store in the Metaverse, I still need to understand what that customer really prefers and keep up with that customer as they change their preferences. And AI is the key to be able to help a marketer. I call it the, you know, our own group call it like IPA you know, which is ingest all possible data, even from Metaverse, you know, the protocols might change, the formats might change, but then you have to not only have a sense of what happened in the past. I think there are more than enough tools to know what happened. There are only emerging tools to tell you what might happen. How do I predict? So ingest, predict, and then next step is activate. Actually you had to do something with it. How do I activate it, that the experience for you, whether it's Web3 or Web2 changes, and that IPA is kind of our own brew of, you know, AI marketing that we are taking to market. >> And that's the enablement piece, so how does this relate to the customer's data? You guys are storing all the data? Are they coming in? Is there a huge data lake involved? Can I bring in third party data? Does it have to be all be first party? How is that platform-level enabling this new form of customer engagement? >> Absolutely. There's a lot of heavy lifting that the data systems that one has to you know, bring to bear upon the problem, data systems ranging from, you know, distributed search, distributed indexing, low latency systems, data lakes that are built for high velocity, AI machine learning, training model inference, that validation pipeline. And, you know, we certainly leverage a lot of of data lake systems out there, including many of the components that are, you know, provided by our preferred partner, AWS and open source tools. And these data systems are certainly very complex to manage. And for an organization that, with a, you know, 5 to 10 people team of marketers, they're usually short staffed on the, the amount of attention that they get from rest of the organization. And what we have made is that you can ingest a lot more raw data. We do the heavy lifting, but both data management, identity resolution, segmentation, audience building, predictions, recommendations, and then give you also the delivery piece, which is, can I actually send you something? Can I put something in front of the user and measure it and report on it and tell you that, this is the ROI? How do, if all this would be for nothing, if actually you go through all this and there's no real ROI. And we have kind of, you know, our own forester did a total economic impact study with us. And they have found, they have found 781% ROI for implementing Blueshift. And it's a tremendous amount of ROI you get once you are able to reorient your organizations towards that. >> You know, Manyam, one of the problems of being a visionary and a pioneer like you guys are, you're early a lot. And so you must be scratching your head going, oh, the hot buzzword these days is the semantic layer, in Khan, you see snowflake and a bunch of other people kind of pushing this semantic layer. It's basically a data plane essentially for data, right? >> Right. >> And you guys have done that. Been there, done that, but now that's in play, you guys have this. >> That's right. >> You've got all this semantic search built in into the system, all this in data ingestion, it's a full platform. And so I need to ask you how you see this vectoring into the future state of customer engagement. Where, where do you see this intersecting with the organizations you're trying to bring this to? Are they putting more investment in, are they pulling back? Are they, where are, where are they and where are you guys relative to this, this technology? And, and, and, and first of all let's get your reaction to this semantic layer first. >> Right, right. It's a fantastic, you know, as a technologist, I love, you know, kind of the ontology and semantic differences, you know, how, how, you know, data planes, data meshes, data fabrics are put together. And, you know, I saw this, you know, kind of a dichotomy between CIO org and CMO org, right? The CO says like, you know, I have the best data plane, the data mesh, the data fabric. And the CMO says like, but I'm actually trying to accomplish something for this campaign. And they're like, oh, that, does it actually connect the both of pieces? >> So I think, the- >> Yeah? >> The CMO org certainly will need purpose-built applications, on top of the data fabric, on top of the data lakes, on top of the data measures, to be able to help marketing teams both technical and semi-technical to be able to accomplish that. >> Yeah. And then, and the new personas they want turnkey, they want to have it self-service. Again, the 10x marketer is someone with a small staff that can do the staff of hundred people, right? >> That's absolutely- >> So that's where it's going. And this is, this i6s the new normal. >> So, we call them AI marketers. And I think it's a, it's like you're calling a 10x marketer. I think, you know, over time we didn't have, you know this word, business intelligence analyst, but then once the tool are there, then they become business intelligence analysts. I think likewise, once these tools are available then we'll have AI marketers out in the market. >> Well, Manyam, I'd love to do a full, like, one-hour podcast with you. You can go for a long time with these topics given what you guys are working on, how relevant it is, how cool it is right now, and with what you guys have as a team and solution. I really appreciate you coming on the CUBE to chat. For the last minute we have here, give a quick plug for the company, what you guys are up to, size, funding, revenues, what you're looking for. What should people pay attention to? Give the plug. >> Yeah. Yeah, we are a global team, spanning, you know, multiple time zones. You know, we have raised $65 million to date to build out our vision and, you know, over the last eight years of our funding, we have served hundreds of customers and continuing to, you know, take on more. I think, you know, our hope is that over time, the next 10,000 organizations see this as a very much an approachable, you know, problem to solve for themselves, which I think is where we are. AI marketing is real doable, proven ROI. Can we get the next 10,000 customers to embrace that? >> You know, as we always used to say in the kind of web business and search, it's the contextual and the behavioral, you got to bring 'em together here. You got all that technology for the, for the sites and applications for the behavior and converting that contextually into value. Really compelling solution. Thanks for sharing your insight. >> Yeah. Thank you John, really appreciate this. >> Okay, this is CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> When Facebook changed its name to Meta last fall, it catalyzed a chain reaction throughout the tech industry. Software firms, gaming companies, chip makers, device manufacturers, and others have joined in hype machine. Now, it's easy to dismiss the metaverse as futuristic hyperbole, but do we really believe that tapping on a smartphone, or staring at a screen, or two-dimensional Zoom meetings are the future of how we work, play, and communicate? As the internet itself proved to be larger than we ever imagined, it's very possible, and even quite likely that the combination of massive processing power, cheap storage, AI, blockchains, crypto, sensors, AR, VR, brain interfaces, and other emerging technologies will combine to create new and unimaginable consumer experiences, and massive wealth for creators of the metaverse. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in cyber expert, hacker gamer, NFT expert, and founder of ORE System, Nick Donarski. Nick, welcome, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, sir, glad to be here. >> Yeah, okay, so today we're going to traverse two parallel paths, one that took Nick from security expert and PenTester to NFTs, tokens, and the metaverse. And we'll simultaneously explore the complicated world of cybersecurity in the enterprise, and how the blockchain, crypto, and NFTs will provide key underpinnings for digital ownership in the metaverse. We're going to talk a little bit about blockchain, and crypto, and get things started there, and some of the realities and misconceptions, and how innovations in those worlds have led to the NFT craze. We'll look at what's really going on in NFTs and why they're important as both a technology and societal trend. Then, we're going to dig into the tech and try to explain why and how blockchain and NFTs are going to lay the foundation for the metaverse. And, finally, who's going to build the metaverse. And how long is it going to take? All right, Nick, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about your background, your career. You started as a hacker at a really, really young age, and then got deep into cyber as a PenTester. You did some pretty crazy stuff. You have some great stories about sneaking into buildings. You weren't just doing it all remote. Tell us about yourself. >> Yeah, so I mean, really, I started a long time ago. My dad was really the foray into technology. I wrote my first program on an Apple IIe in BASIC in 1989. So, I like to say I was born on the internet, if you will. But, yeah, in high school at 16, I incorporated my first company, did just tech support for parents and teachers. And then in 2000 I transitioned really into security and focused there ever since. I joined Rapid7 and after they picked up Medis boy, I joined HP. I was one of their founding members of Shadowlabs and really have been part of the information security and the cyber community all throughout, whether it's training at various different conferences or talking. My biggest thing and my most awesome moments as various things of being broken into, is really when I get to actually work with somebody that's coming up in the industry and who's new and actually has that light bulb moment of really kind of understanding of technology, understanding an idea, or getting it when it comes to that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, and when you think about what's going on in crypto and NFTs and okay, now the metaverse it's you get to see some of the most innovative people. Now I want to first share a little bit of data on enterprise security and maybe Nick get you to comment. We've reported over the past several years on the complexity in the security business and the numerous vendor choices that SecOps Pros face. And this chart really tells that story in the cybersecurity space. It's an X,Y graph. We've shown it many times from the ETR surveys where the vertical axis, it's a measure of spending momentum called net score. And the horizontal axis is market share, which represents each company's presence in the data set, and a couple of points stand out. First, it's really crowded. In that red dotted line that you see there, that's 40%, above that line on the net score axis, marks highly elevated spending momentum. Now, let's just zoom in a bit and I've cut the data by those companies that have more than a hundred responses in the survey. And you can see here on this next chart, it's still very crowded, but a few call-outs are noteworthy. First companies like SentinelOne, Elastic, Tanium, Datadog, Netskope and Darktrace. They were all above that 40% line in the previous chart, but they've fallen off. They still have actually a decent presence in the survey over 60 responses, but under that hundred. And you can see Auth0 now Okta, big $7 billion acquisition. They got the highest net score CrowdStrike's up there, Okta classic they're kind of enterprise business, and Zscaler and others above that line. You see Palo Alto Networks and Microsoft very impressive because they're both big and they're above that elevated spending velocity. So Nick, kind of a long-winded intro, but it was a little bit off topic, but I wanted to start here because this is the life of a SecOps pro. They lack the talent in a capacity to keep bad guys fully at bay. And so they have to keep throwing tooling at the problem, which adds to the complexity and as a PenTester and hacker, this chaos and complexity means cash for the bad guys. Doesn't it? >> Absolutely. You know, the more systems that these organizations find to integrate into the systems, means that there's more components, more dollars and cents as far as the amount of time and the engineers that need to actually be responsible for these tools. There's a lot of reasons that, the more, I guess, hands in the cookie jar, if you will, when it comes to the security architecture, the more links that are, or avenues for attack built into the system. And really one of the biggest things that organizations face is being able to have engineers that are qualified and technical enough to be able to support that architecture as well, 'cause buying it from a vendor and deploying it, putting it onto a shelf is good, but if it's not tuned properly, or if it's not connected properly, that security tool can just hold up more avenues of attack for you. >> Right, okay, thank you. Now, let's get into the meat of the discussion for today and talk a little bit about blockchain and crypto for a bit. I saw sub stack post the other day, and it was ripping Matt Damon for pedaling crypto on TV ads and how crypto is just this big pyramid scheme. And it's all about allowing criminals to be anonymous and it's ransomware and drug trafficking. And yes, there are definitely scams and you got to be careful and lots of dangers out there, but these are common criticisms in the mainstream press, that overlooked the fact by the way that IPO's and specs are just as much of a pyramid scheme. Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be more regulation, there should, but Bitcoin was born out of the 2008 financial crisis, cryptocurrency, and you think about, it's really the confluence of software engineering, cryptography and game theory. And there's some really powerful innovation being created by the blockchain community. Crypto and blockchain are really at the heart of a new decentralized platform being built out. And where today, you got a few, large internet companies. They control the protocols and the platform. Now the aspiration of people like yourself, is to create new value opportunities. And there are many more chances for the little guys and girls to get in on the ground floor and blockchain technology underpins all this. So Nick, what's your take, what are some of the biggest misconceptions around blockchain and crypto? And do you even pair those two in the same context? What are your thoughts? >> So, I mean, really, we like to separate ourselves and say that we are a blockchain company, as opposed to necessarily saying(indistinct) anything like that. We leverage those tools. We leverage cryptocurrencies, we leverage NFTs and those types of things within there, but blockchain is a technology, which is the underlying piece, is something that can be used and utilized in a very large number of different organizations out there. So, cryptocurrency and a lot of that negative context comes with a fear of something new, without having that regulation in place, without having the rules in place. And we were a big proponent of, we want the regulation, right? We want to do right. We want to do it by the rules. We want to do it under the context of, this is what should be done. And we also want to help write those rules as well, because a lot of the lawmakers, a lot of the lobbyists and things, they have a certain aspect or a certain goal of when they're trying to get these things. Our goal is simplicity. We want the ability for the normal average person to be able to interact with crypto, interact with NFTs, interact with the blockchain. And basically by saying, blockchain in quotes, it's very ambiguous 'cause there's many different things that blockchain can be, the easiest way, right? The easiest way to understand blockchain is simply a distributed database. That's really the core of what blockchain is. It's a record keeping mechanism that allows you to reference that. And the beauty of it, is that it's quote unquote immutable. You can't edit that data. So, especially when we're talking about blockchain, being underlying for technologies in the future, things like security, where you have logging, you have keeping, whether you're talking about sales, where you may have to have multiple different locations (indistinct) users from different locations around the globe. It creates a central repository that provides distribution and security in the way that you're ensuring your data, ensuring the validation of where that data exists when it was created. Those types of things that blockchain really is. If you go to the historical, right, the very early on Bitcoin absolutely was made to have a way of not having to deal with the fed. That was the core functionality of the initial crypto. And then you had a lot of the illicit trades, those black markets that jumped onto it because of what it could do. The maturity of the technology though, of where we are now versus say back in 97 is a much different world of blockchain, and there's a much different world of cryptocurrency. You still have to be careful because with any fed, you're still going to have that FUD that goes out there and sells that fear, uncertainty and doubt, which spurs a lot of those types of scams, and a lot of those things that target end users that we face as security professionals today. You still get mailers that go out, looking for people to give their social security number over during tax time. Snail mail is considered a very ancient technology, but it still works. You still get a portion of the population that falls for those tricks, fishing, whatever it might be. It's all about trying to make sure that you have fear about what is that change. And I think that as we move forward, and move into the future, the simpler and the more comfortable these types of technologies become, the easier it is to utilize and indoctrinate normal users, to be able to use these things. >> You know, I want to ask you about that, Nick, because you mentioned immutability, there's a lot of misconceptions about that. I had somebody tell me one time, "Blockchain's Bs," and they say, "Well, oh, hold on a second. They say, oh, they say it's a mutable, but you can hack Coinbase, whatever it is." So I guess a couple of things, one is that the killer app for blockchain became money. And so we learned a lot through that. And you had Bitcoin and it really wasn't programmable through its interface. And then Ethereum comes out. I know, you know a lot about Ether and you have solidity, which is a lot simpler, but it ain't JavaScript, which is ubiquitous. And so now you have a lot of potential for the initial ICO's and probably still the ones today, the white papers, a lot of security flaws in there. I'm sure you can talk to that, but maybe you can help square that circle about immutability and security. I've mentioned game theory before, it's harder to hack Bitcoin and the Bitcoin blockchain than it is to mine. So that's why people mine, but maybe you could add some context to that. >> Yeah, you know it goes to just about any technology out there. Now, when you're talking about blockchain specifically, the majority of the attacks happen with the applications and the smart contracts that are actually running on the blockchain, as opposed to necessarily the blockchain itself. And like you said, the impact for whether that's loss of revenue or loss of tokens or whatever it is, in most cases that results from something that was a phishing attack, you gave up your credentials, somebody said, paste your private key in here, and you win a cookie or whatever it might be, but those are still the fundamental pieces. When you're talking about various different networks out there, depending on the blockchain, depends on how much the overall security really is. The more distributed it is, and the more stable it is as the network goes, the better or the more stable any of the code is going to be. The underlying architecture of any system is the key to success when it comes to the overall security. So the blockchain itself is immutable, in the case that the owner are ones have to be trusted. If you look at distributed networks, something like Ethereum or Bitcoin, where you have those proof of work systems, that disperses that information at a much more remote location, So the more disperse that information is, the less likely it is to be able to be impacted by one small instance. If you look at like the DAO Hack, or if you look at a lot of the other vulnerabilities that exist on the blockchain, it's more about the code. And like you said, solidity being as new as it is, it's not JavaScript. The industry is very early and very infantile, as far as the developers that are skilled in doing this. And with that just comes the inexperience and the lack of information that you don't learn until JavaScript is 10 or 12 years old. >> And the last thing I'll say about this topic, and we'll move on to NFTs, but NFTs relate is that, again, I said earlier that the big internet giants have pretty much co-opted the platform. You know, if you wanted to invest in Linux in the early days, there was no way to do that. You maybe have to wait until red hat came up with its IPO and there's your pyramid scheme folks. But with crypto it, which is again, as Nick was explaining underpinning is the blockchain, you can actually participate in early projects. Now you got to be careful 'cause there are a lot of scams and many of them are going to blow out if not most of them, but there are some, gems out there, because as Nick was describing, you've got this decentralized platform that causes scaling issues or performance issues, and people are solving those problems, essentially building out a new internet. But I want to get into NFTs, because it's sort of the next big thing here before we get into the metaverse, what Nick, why should people pay attention to NFTs? Why do they matter? Are they really an important trend? And what are the societal and technological impacts that you see in this space? >> Yeah, I mean, NFTs are a very new technology and ultimately it's just another entry on the blockchain. It's just another piece of data in the database. But how it's leveraged in the grand scheme of how we, as users see it, it can be the classic idea of an NFT is just the art, or as good as the poster on your wall. But in the case of some of the new applications, is where are you actually get that utility function. Now, in the case of say video games, video games and gamers in general, already utilize digital items. They already utilize digital points. As in the case of like Call of Duty points, those are just different versions of digital currencies. You know, World of Warcraft Gold, I like to affectionately say, was the very first cryptocurrency. There was a Harvard course taught on the economy of WOW, there was a black market where you could trade your end game gold for Fiat currencies. And there's even places around the world that you can purchase real world items and stay at hotels for World of Warcraft Gold. So the adoption of blockchain just simply gives a more stable and a more diverse technology for those same types of systems. You're going to see that carry over into shipping and logistics, where you need to have data that is single repository for being able to have multiple locations, multiple shippers from multiple global efforts out there that need to have access to that data. But in the current context, it's either sitting on a shipping log, it's sitting on somebody's desk. All of those types of paper transactions can be leveraged as NFTs on the blockchain. It's just simply that representation. And once you break the idea of this is just a piece of art, or this is a cryptocurrency, you get into a world where you can apply that NFT technology to a lot more things than I think most people think of today. >> Yeah, and of course you mentioned art a couple of times when people sold as digital art for whatever, it was 60, 65 million, 69 million, that caught a lot of people's attention, but you're seeing, I mean, there's virtually infinite number of applications for this. One of the Washington wizards, tokenized portions of his contract, maybe he was creating a new bond, that's really interesting use cases and opportunities, and that kind of segues into the latest, hot topic, which is the metaverse. And you've said yourself that blockchain and NFTs are the foundation of the metaverse, they're foundational elements. So first, what is the metaverse to you and where do blockchain and NFTs, fit in? >> Sure, so, I mean, I affectionately refer to the metaverse just a VR and essentially, we've been playing virtual reality games and all the rest for a long time. And VR has really kind of been out there for a long time. So most people's interpretation or idea of what the metaverse is, is a virtual reality version of yourself and this right, that idea of once it becomes yourself, is where things like NFT items, where blockchain and digital currencies are going to come in, because if you have a manufacturer, so you take on an organization like Nike, and they want to put their shoes into the metaverse because we, as humans, want to individualize ourselves. We go out and we want to have that one of one shoe or that, t-shirt or whatever it is, we're going to want to represent that same type of individuality in our virtual self. So NFTs, crypto and all of those digital currencies, like I was saying that we've known as gamers are going to play that very similar role inside of the metaverse. >> Yeah. Okay. So basically you're going to take your physical world into the metaverse. You're going to be able to, as you just mentioned, acquire things- I loved your WOW example. And so let's stay on this for a bit, if we may, of course, Facebook spawned a lot of speculation and discussion about the concept of the metaverse and really, as you pointed out, it's not new. You talked about why second life, really started in 2003, and it's still around today. It's small, I read recently, it's creators coming back into the company and books were written in the early 90s that used the term metaverse. But Nick, talk about how you see this evolving, what role you hope to play with your company and your community in the future, and who builds the metaverse, when is it going to be here? >> Yeah, so, I mean, right now, and we actually just got back from CES last week. And the Metaverse is a very big buzzword. You're going to see a lot of integration of what people are calling, quote unquote, the metaverse. And there was organizations that were showing virtual office space, virtual malls, virtual concerts, and those types of experiences. And the one thing right now that I don't think that a lot of organizations have grasp is how to make one metaverse. There's no real player one, if you will always this yet, There's a lot of organizations that are creating their version of the metaverse, which then again, just like every other software and game vendor out there has their version of cryptocurrency and their version of NFTs. You're going to see it start to pop up, especially as Oculus is going to come down in price, especially as you get new technologies, like some of the VR glasses that look more augmented reality and look more like regular glasses that you're wearing, things like that, the easier that those technologies become as in adopting into our normal lifestyle, as far as like looks and feels, the faster that stuff's going to actually come out to the world. But when it comes to like, what we're doing is we believe that the metaverse should actually span multiple different blockchains, multiple different segments, if you will. So what ORE system is doing, is we're actually building the underlying architecture and technologies for developers to bring their metaverse too. You can leverage the ORE Systems NFTs, where we like to call our utility NFTs as an in-game item in one game, or you can take it over and it could be a t-shirt in another game. The ability for having that cross support within the ecosystem is what really no one has grasp on yet. Most of the organizations out there are using a very classic business model. Get the user in the game, make them spend their money in the game, make all their game stuff as only good in their game. And that's where the developer has you, they have you in their bubble. Our goal, and what we like to affectionately say is, we want to bring white collar tools and technology to blue collar folks, We want to make it simple. We want to make it off the shelf, and we want to make it a less cost prohibitive, faster, and cheaper to actually get out to all the users. We do it by supporting the technology. That's our angle. If you support the technology and you support the platform, you can build a community that will build all of the metaverse around them. >> Well, and so this is interesting because, if you think about some of the big names, we've Microsoft is talking about it, obviously we mentioned Facebook. They have essentially walled gardens. Now, yeah, okay, I could take Tik Tok and pump it into Instagram is fine, but they're really siloed off. And what you're saying is in the metaverse, you should be able to buy a pair of sneakers in one location and then bring it to another one. >> Absolutely, that's exactly it. >> And so my original kind of investment in attractiveness, if you will, to crypto, was that, the little guy can get an early, but I worry that some of these walled gardens, these big internet giants are going to try to co-op this. So I think what you're doing is right on, and I think it's aligned with the objectives of consumers and the users who don't want to be forced in to a pen. They want to be able to live freely. And that's really what you're trying to do. >> That's exactly it. You know, when you buy an item, say a Skin in Fortnite or Skin in Call of Duty, it's only good in that game. And not even in the franchise, it's only good in that version of the game. In the case of what we want to do is, you can not only have that carry over and your character. So say you buy a really cool shirt, and you've got that in your Call of Duty or in our case, we're really Osiris Protocol, which is our proof of concept video game to show that this all thing actually works, but you can actually go in and you can get a gun in Osiris Protocol. And if we release, Osiris Protocol two, you'll be able to take that to Osiris Protocol two. Now the benefit of that is, is you're going to be the only one in the next version with that item, if you haven't sold it or traded it or whatever else. So we don't lock you into a game. We don't lock you into a specific application. You own that, you can trade that freely with other users. You can sell that on the open market. We're embracing what used to be considered the black market. I don't understand why a lot of video games, we're always against the skins and mods and all the rest. For me as a gamer and coming up, through the many, many years of various different Call of Duties and everything in my time, I wish I could still have some this year. I still have a World of Warcraft account. I wasn't on, Vanilla, Burning Crusade was my foray, but I still have a character. If you look at it that way, if I had that wild character and that gear was NFTs, in theory, I could actually pass that onto my kid who could carry on that character. And it would actually increase in value because they're NFT back then. And then if needed, you could trade those on the open market and all the rest. It just makes gaming a much different thing. >> I love it. All right, Nick, hey, we're out of time, but I got to say, Nick Donarski, thanks so much for coming on the program today, sharing your insights and really good luck to you and building out your technology platform and your community. >> Thank you, sir, it's been an absolute pleasure. >> And thank you for watching. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast", and you'll find them. I publish pretty much every week on siliconangle.com and wikibond.com. And you can reach me @dvellante on Twitter or comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can always email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget, check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR, happy 2022 be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Welcome back to AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE. And we're here with Steve Mullaney, who is the president and CEO of Aviatrix. Steve, I got to tell ya, great to see you man. >> We started the whole pandemic, last show we did was with you guys. >> Steve: Don't say we started, we didn't start it. (steve chuckles) >> Right, we kicked it off (all cross talking) >> It's going to be great. >> Our virtual coverage, that hybrid coverage that we did, how ironic? >> Steve: Yeah, was as the world was shutting down. >> So, great to see you face to face. >> Steve: Great to see you too. >> Wow, so you're two years in? >> Steve: Two and a half years yeah. >> Started, the company was standing start $2 billion valuation, raised a bunch of dough. >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's good, you got to feel good about that. >> We were 38 people, two and a half years ago, we're now 400. We had a couple million in ARR, we're now going to be over a 100 million next year, next calendar year, so significant growth. We just raised $200 million, three months ago at a $2 billion valuation. Now have 550 customers, 54 of them are fortune 500, when I started two and a half years ago, we didn't have any fortune 500s, we had probably about a 100 customers. So, massive growth, big growth (indistinct). >> Awesome, I got to ask you, I love to ask CEO's, entrepreneurs, how did you know when to scale? >> You just know it, when you see it. (indistinct) Yeah, there's no formula, you just know it and what you look for is that point where you say, okay, we've now proven the model and until you do that you minimize things and we actually just went through this. We had 12 sales teams, four months ago, we now have 50. 50, five zero and it's that step function as a company, you don't want to linearly grow 'cause you want to hold until you say, it's happening. And then once you say it's happening, okay, the dogs are eating the dog food, this is good then you flip the other way, and then you say, let's grow as fast as we possibly can and that's kind of the mode we're in right now. >> Okay, You've... >> You just know it when you see it. >> Other piece of that is how fast do you scale? And now you're sort of doing that step function as your going. >> Steve: We are going as fast as we possibly can. >> Wow, that's awesome, congratulations and I know you've got to long way to go. So okay, let's talk about the big trends that you're seeing that Aviatrix has taken advantage of, maybe explain a little bit about what you guys do. >> Yeah. So we are, what I like to call Multi- Cloud Native Networking and Network Security. So, if you think of... >> David: What is multicloud native? You got to explain that. >> I got to to explain that. Here's what's happened, it's happening and what I mean by it's happening is, enterprises at two and a half years ago, this is why I joined Aviatrix, all decided for the first time, we mean it now, we are going into Cloud 'cause before that they were just mouthing it. And they said, "We're going into the Cloud." And oh by the way, I knew two and a half years ago of course it was going to be multicloud, 'cause enterprises run workloads where they run best. That's what they do, it's sometimes it's AWS, sometimes it's ads or sometimes it's Google, it's of course going to be multicloud. And so from an enterprise perspective, they love the DevOps, they love the simplicity, the automation, the infrastructure is code, the Terraform, that Cloud operational model, because this is a business transformation, moving to Cloud is not a technology transformation it's the business. It's the CEO saying we are digitizing we have an existential threat to the survival of our company, I want to grow a market share, I want to be more competitive, we're doing this, stop laying across the tracks technology people, will run you over, we're doing this. And so when they do that as an enterprise, I'm BNY Mellon, I'm United Airlines, you name it, your favorite enterprise. I need the visibility and control from a networking and network security perspective like I used to have on-prem. Now I'm not going to do it in the horrible complex operational model the Cisco 1994 data center, do not bring that crap into my wonderful Cloud, so that ain't happening but, all I get from the Native constructs, I don't get enough of that visibility and control, it's a little bit of a black box, I don't get that. So where do I get the best of the Cloud from an operational model, but yet with the visibility and control that I need, that I used to have on-prem from networking network security, that's Aviatrix. And that's where people find us and so from a networking and network security, so that's why I call it multicloud Native because what we do is, create a layer basically an abstraction layer above all the different Clouds, we create one architecture for networking and network security with advanced services not basic services that run on AWS, Azure, Google, Oracle, Ali Cloud, Top Secret Clouds, GovClouds, you name it. And now the customer has one architecture, which is what enterprises want, I want one network, I want one network security architecture, not AWS Native, Azure Native, Google Native. >> David: Right. >> We leverage those native constructs, abstract it, and then provide a single common architecture with demand services, irrespective of what Cloud you're on. >> Dave, I've been saying this for a couple of years now, that Cloud Native... >> Does that make sense Dave? >> Absolutely. >> That abstraction layer, right? And I said, "The guys who do this, who figure this out are going to make a lot of dough." >> Yeah. >> Snowflakes obviously doing it. >> Yeah. >> You guys are doing it, it's the future. >> Yeah. >> And it's really an obvious construct when you look back at the world of call it Legacy IT for a moment... >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because did we have different networks to hookup different things in a data center? >> No, one network. >> One network of course. I don't care if the physical stack comes from Dell, HP or IBM. >> Steve: That's right, I want an attraction layer above that, yeah. >> Exactly. >> So the other thing that happens is, everybody and you'll understand this from being at Oracle, everybody wants to forget about the network. Network security, it's down in the bowels, it's like plumbing, electricity, it's just, it has to be there but people want to forget about it and so you see Datadog, you see Snowflake, you see HashiCorp going IPO in early December. Guess what? That next layer underneath that, I call it the horsemen of the multicloud infrastructure is networking and network security, that's going to be Aviatrix. >> Well, you guys make some announcements recently in that space, every company is a security company but you're really deep into it. >> Well, that's the interesting thing about it. So I said multicloud Native Networking and Network Security, it's integrated, so guess where network security is going to be done in the Cloud? In the network. >> David: Network. >> Yeah in the network. >> What a strange concept but guess what on-prem it's not, you deflect traffic to this thing called a firewall. Well, why was that? I was at Synoptics, I was at Cisco 'cause we didn't care about network security, so that's why firewall companies existed. >> Dave: Right. >> It should be integrated into the infrastructure. So now in the Cloud, your security posture is way worse than it was on-prem. You're connected to the internet by default so guess what? You want your network to do network security, so we announced two things in security; one, we're now a security competency partner for AWS, they do not give that out lightly. We were networks competency four years ago, we're now network security competency. One of the few that are both, they don't do that, that took us nine months of working with them to get there. And they only do that for the people that really are delivering value. And then what we just announced what we call, 'ThreatIQ with ThreatGuard.' So again, built into the network because we are the network, we understand the traffic, we're the control plane and the data plane, we see all traffic. We integrate into the network, we subscribe to threat databases, public databases, where we see what are the malicious IPS. If we have any traffic anywhere in your overall, and this is multicloud, not just AWS, every single Cloud, if we see that malicious traffic going some into IP guess what? It's probably BIT Mining, Bitcoin, crypto mining, it's probably some sort of data ex filtration. It could be some tour thing that you're connected to, whatever it is, you should not have traffic going. And so we do two things we alert and we show you where that all is and then with ThreatGuard, we actually will do a firewall rule right at that gateway, at that point that it's going out and immediately gone. >> You'll take the action. >> We'll take the action. >> Okay. >> And so every single customer, Dave and David, that we've shown this new capability to, it lights up like a Christmas tree. >> Yeah al bet. Okay, but now you've made some controversial statements... >> Steve: Which time? >> Okay, so you said Cisco, I think VMware... >> Dave: He's writing them down. >> I know but I can back it up. >> I think you said the risk, Cisco, VMware and Arista, they're not even in the Cloud conversation now. Arista, Jayshree Ullal is a business hero of mine, so I don't want to... >> Steve: Yeah, mine too. >> I don't want to interrogate her, she's awesome. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But what do you mean by that? Because can't Cisco come at this from their networking perspective and security and bring that in? What do you mean by they're not in the Cloud conversation? >> They're not in the conversation. >> David: Okay, defend that. >> And the reason is they were about four years ago. So when you're four years ago, you're moving into the Cloud, what's the first thing you do? I'm going to grab my CSR and I'm going to try to jam it in the Cloud. Guess what? The CSR doesn't even know it's in the Cloud, it's looking for ports, right? And so what happens is the operational model is horrendous, so all the Cloud people, it just is like oil and water, so they go, oh, that was horrendous. So no one's doing that, so what happens in the Cloud is they realize the number one thing is the Cloud operational model. I need that simplicity, I have to be a single Terraform provider, infrastructure is code. Where do I put my box with my wires? That's what the on-prem hardware people think. >> David: The selling ports your saying? >> The selling boxes. >> David: Yeah. >> And so they'll say, "Oh, we got us software version of it, it runs as a VM, it has no idea it's in the Cloud." It is not Cloud Native, I call that Cloud naive, they don't understand so then the model doesn't work. And so then they say, "Okay, I'm not going to do that." Then the only other thing they can do, is they look at the Cloud providers themselves and they say, "All right, I'm going to use Native constructs, what do you got?" And what happens basically is the Cloud providers say, "Well, we do everything and anything you'll ever need and networking and network security." And the customers, "Oh my God, it's fantastic." Then they try to use it and what they realize is you get very basic level services, and you get no visibility and control because they're a black box, you don't get to go in. How about troubleshooting, Packet Captures, simple things? How about security controls, performance traffic engineering, performance controls, visibility nothing, right? And so then they go, "Oh shit, I'm an enterprise, I'm not just some DevOps Danny three years ago, who was just spinning up workloads and didn't care about security." No, that was the Cloud three years ago. This is now United, BNY, Nike. This is like elite of elite. So when my VC was here, he said, "It's happening." That's what he meant, it's happening. Meaning enterprises, the dogs are eating the dog food and they need visibility and control, they cannot get it from the Cloud providers. >> It's happening in early days Dave. >> So Steve, we're going to stipulate that you can't jam this stuff into Cloud, but those dinosaurs are real and they're there. Explain how you... >> Steve: Well you called them dinosaurs not me but they're roaming the earth and they're going to run out of food pretty soon. (all laughing) The comet hit the earth. >> Hey, they're going to go down fighting. (all laughing) >> But the dinosaurs didn't all die the day after the comet hit the earth... >> Steve: That's right. >> They took awhile. >> Steve: They took a while. >> So, how are you going to saddle them up? That's the question because you're... >> Steve: It's over there walking dead, I don't need to do anything. >> Is it the captain Kirk to con, let them die. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because you're in the Cloud, you're multicloud... >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's great, but 80% of my IT still on-prem and I still have Cisco switches. Isn't that just not your market or? >> When IBM and DEC did we have to do anything with IBM and DEC in the 90s, early 90s, when we created BC client server, IP architectures? No, they weren't in the conversation. >> David: Yeah. >> So, we dint compete with them, just like whatever they do on-prem, keep doing it, I wish you the best. >> But you need to integrate with them and play with them. >> Steve: No. >> Not at all? >> No, no we integrate, here is the thing that's going to happen, so to the on-prem people, it's all point of reference. They look at Cloud as off-prem, I'm going to take my operational model on-prem and I'm going to push it into the Cloud. And if I push it into multiple Clouds, they're going to call that multicloud, see we are multicloud. You're pushing your operational model into the Cloud. What's happening is Cloud has won, it won two and a half years ago with every enterprise. It's like a rock in the water. And what's going to happen is that operational model is moving out to the edge, it's moving to the branch, it's moving to the data center and it's moving into edge computing. That's what's happening... >> So outpost, so I put an outpost in my data center... >> Outpost looks like... >> Is that Aviatrix? >> Absolutely, we're going to get dragged with that... >> Dave: Okay, alright. >> Because we're the networking and network security provider, and as the company pushes out, that operational model is going to move out, not the existing on-prem OT, IT branch office then pushing in. And so, what's happening is you're coming at it from the wrong perspective. And this wave is just going to push over and so I'm just following behind this wave of AWS and Azure and Google. >> Here's the thing, you can do this and you don't have a bunch of legacy deductible debt... >> Steve: Yeah. >> So you can be Cloud Native, multicloud native, I think you called it? >> Steve: Yeah, yeah. >> I love it, you're building castles on the sand. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Jerry Chen's thing. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now, the thing is, today's executives, they're not as naive as Ken Olsen, UNIX as, "Snake oil," who would need a PC, so they're not in denial. >> They're probably not in denial, yeah. >> Right, and so they have some resources, so the problem is they can't move as fast as you can. So, you're going to do really well. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I think they'll eventually get there Steve, but you're going to be, I don't know how many, four or five years ahead, that's a nice lead. >> That's a bet I'll take any day. >> David: Then what you don't think they'll ever get there? >> No, 10 years. (steve laughing) >> Okay, but they're not going out of business. >> No, I didn't say that. >> I know you didn't. >> What they're doing, I wish them all the best. >> Because a lot of their customers move... >> I don't compete with them. >> Yeah. We were out of time. >> Yeah. >> What did you mean by AWS is like Sandals? You mean like cool like Sandals? >> Steve: Oh, no, no, no. I don't want to... >> You mean like the vacation place? >> Have you ever been to Sandals? >> I never done it. What do you mean by that? >> There coming, there coming. Which version of sandals (indistinct)? (people cross talking) >> This is for an enterprise by the way, and look, Sandals is great for a lot of people but if you're a Cloud provider, you have to provide the common set of services for the masses because you need to make money. And oh, by the way, when you go to Sandals, go try it, like get a bottle of wine, they say, "We got red wine or white wine?" "Oh, great, what kind of red wine?" "No, red wine and it's in a box." And they hope that you won't know the difference. The problem is some people in enterprises want Four Seasons, so they want to be able to swipe the card and get a good bottle of wine. And so that's the thing with the Cloud, but the Cloud can't offer up a 200 bottle of wine to everybody. My mom loves box wine, so give her box wine. Where ISBs like us come in, is great but complimentary to the Cloud provider for that person who wants that nice bottle of wine because if AWS had to provide all this level of functionality for everybody, their instant sizes would be too big, >> Too much cost for that. (people cross talking) You're right on. And as long as you can innovate fast and stay ahead of that and keep adding value... >> Well, here's the thing, they're not going to do it for multicloud either though. >> David: I wouldn't trust them to do it with multicloud. >> No. >> David: I wouldn't. >> No enterprise would and I don't think they would ever do it anyway. >> That makes sense. Steve, we've got to go man. You're awesome, love to have you on theCUBE, come back anytime. >> Awesome, thank you. >> All right, keep it right there everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. (bright music)

>>Yeah. >>Hello. Welcome to the Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We have a conversation around a I for the enterprise. What this means I got two great guests. John Finelli, Vice President, virtual GPU at NVIDIA and Maurizio D V D C T o University of Pisa in Italy. Uh, Practitioner, customer partner, um, got VM world coming up. A lot of action happening in the enterprise. John. Great to see you. Nice to meet you. Remotely coming in from Italy for this remote. >>John. Thanks for having us on again. >>Yeah. Nice to meet >>you. I wish we could be in person face to face, but that's coming soon. Hopefully, John, you were talking. We were just talking about before we came on camera about AI for the enterprise. And the last time I saw you in person was in Cuba interview. We were talking about some of the work you guys were doing in AI. It's gotten so much stronger and broader and the execution of an video, the success you're having set the table for us. What is the ai for the enterprise conversation frame? >>Sure. So, um, we, uh we've been working with enterprises today on how they can deliver a I or explore AI or get involved in a I, um uh, in a standard way in the way that they're used to managing and operating their data centre. Um, writing on top of you know, they're Dell servers with B M or V sphere. Um, so that AI feels like a standard workload that night organisation can deliver to their engineers and data scientists. And then the flip side of that, of course, is ensuring that engineers and data scientists get the workloads position to them or have access to them in the way that they need them. So it's no longer a trouble ticket that you have to submit to, I t and you know, count the hours or days or weeks until you you can get new hardware, right By being able to pull it into the mainstream data centre. I can enable self service provisioning for those folks. So we actually we make a I more consumable or easier to manage for I t administrators and then for the engineers and the data scientists, etcetera. We make it easy for them to get access to those resources so they can get to their work right away. >>Quite progress in the past two years. Congratulations on that and looking. It's only the beginning is Day one Mercy. I want to ask you about what's going on as the CTO University piece of what's happening down there. Tell us a little bit about what's going on. You have the centre of excellence there. What does that mean? What does that include? >>Uh, you know, uh, University of Peace. Are you one of one of the biggest and oldest in Italy? Uh, if you have to give you some numbers is around 50 K students and 3000 staff between, uh, professors resurgence and that cabinet receive staff. So I we are looking into data operation of the centres and especially supports for scientific computing. And, uh, this is our our daily work. Let's say this, uh, taking us a lot of times, but, you know, we are able to, uh, reserve a merchant percentage of our time, Uh, for r and D, And this is where the centre of excellence is, Uh, is coming out. Uh, so we are always looking into new kinds of technologies that we can put together to build new solutions to do next generation computing gas. We always say we are looking for the right partners to do things together. And at the end of the day is the work that is good for us is good for our partners and typically, uh, ends in a production system for our university. So is the evolution of the scientific computing environment that we have. >>Yeah. And you guys have a great track record and reputation of, you know, R and D, testing software, hardware combinations and sharing those best practises, you know, with covid impact in the world. Certainly we see it on the supply chain side. Uh, and John, we heard Jensen, your CEO and video talk multiple keynotes. Now about software, uh, and video being a software company. Dell, you mentioned Dale and VM Ware. You know, Covid has brought this virtualisation world back. And now hybrid. Those are words that we used basically in the text industry. Now it's you're hearing hybrid and virtualisation kicked around in real world. So it's ironic that vm ware and El, uh, and the Cube eventually all of us together doing more virtual stuff. So with covid impacting the world, how does that change you guys? Because software is more important. You gotta leverage the hardware you got, Whether it's Dell or in the cloud, this is a huge change. >>Yeah. So, uh, as you mentioned organisations and enterprises, you know, they're looking at things differently now, Um, you know, the idea of hybrid. You know, when you talk to tech folks and we think about hybrid, we always think about you know, how the different technology works. Um, what we're hearing from customers is hybrid, you know, effectively translates into, you know, two days in the office, three days remote, you know, in the future when they actually start going back to the office. So hybrid work is actually driving the need for hybrid I t. Or or the ability to share resources more effectively. Um, And to think about having resources wherever you are, whether you're working from home or you're in the office that day, you need to have access to the same resources. And that's where you know the the ability to virtualize those resources and provide that access makes that hybrid part seamless >>mercy What's your world has really changed. You have students and faculty. You know, Things used to be easy in the old days. Physical in this network. That network now virtual there. You must really be having him having impact. >>Yeah, we have. We have. Of course. As you can imagine, a big impact, Uh, in any kind of the i t offering, uh, from, uh, design new networking technologies, deploying new networking technologies, uh, new kind of operation we find. We found it at them. We were not able anymore to do burr metal operations directly, but, uh, from the i t point of view, uh, we were how can I say prepared in the sense that, uh, we ran from three or four years parallel, uh, environment. We have bare metal and virtual. So as you can imagine, traditional bare metal HPC cluster D g d g X machines, uh, multi GPU s and so on. But in parallel, we have developed, uh, visual environment that at the beginning was, as you can imagine, used, uh, for traditional enterprise application, or VD. I, uh, we have a significant significant arise on a farm with the grid for remote desktop remote pull station that we are using for, for example, uh, developing a virtual classroom or visual go stations. And so this is was typical the typical operation that we did the individual world. But in the same infrastructure, we were able to develop first HPC individual borders of utilisation of the HPC resources for our researchers and, uh, at the end, ai ai offering and ai, uh, software for our for our researchers, you can imagine our vehicle infrastructure as a sort of white board where we are able to design new solution, uh, in a fast way without losing too much performance. And in the case of the AI, we will see that we the performance are almost the same at the bare metal. But with all the flexibility that we needed in the covid 19 world and in the future world, too. >>So a couple things that I want to get John's thoughts as well performance you mentioned you mentioned hybrid virtual. How does VM Ware and NVIDIA fit into all this as you put this together, okay, because you bring up performance. That's now table stakes. He's leading scale and performance are really on the table. everyone's looking at it. How does VM ware an NVIDIA John fit in with the university's work? >>Sure. So, um, I think you're right when it comes to, uh, you know, enterprises or mainstream enterprises beginning their initial foray into into a I, um there are, of course, as performance in scale and also kind of ease of use and familiarity are all kind of things that come into play in terms of when an enterprise starts to think about it. And, um, we have a history with VM Ware working on this technology. So in 2019, we introduced our virtual compute server with VM Ware, which allowed us to effectively virtual is the Cuda Compute driver at last year's VM World in 2020 the CEOs of both companies got together and made an announcement that we were going to bring a I R entire video AI platform to the Enterprise on top of the sphere. And we did that, Um, starting in March this year, we we we finalise that with the introduction of GM wears V, Sphere seven, update two and the early access at the time of NVIDIA ai Enterprise. And, um, we have now gone to production with both of those products. And so customers, Um, like the University of Pisa are now using our production capabilities. And, um, whenever you virtualize in particular and in something like a I where performances is really important. Um, the first question that comes up is, uh doesn't work and And how quickly does it work Or or, you know, from an I t audience? A lot of times you get the How much did it slow down? And and and so we We've worked really closely from an NVIDIA software perspective and a bm wear perspective. And we really talk about in media enterprise with these fair seven as optimist, certified and supported. And the net of that is, we've been able to run the standard industry benchmarks for single node as well as multi note performance, with about maybe potentially a 2% degradation in performance, depending on the workload. Of course, it's very different, but but effectively being able to trade that performance for the accessibility, the ease of use, um, and even using things like we realise, automation for self service for the data scientists, Um and so that's kind of how we've been pulling it together for the market. >>Great stuff. Well, I got to ask you. I mean, people have that reaction of about the performance. I think you're being polite. Um, around how you said that shows the expectation. It's kind of sceptical, uh, and so I got to ask you, the impact of this is pretty significant. What is it now that customers can do that? They couldn't or couldn't feel they had before? Because if the expectations as well as it worked well, I mean, there's a fast means. It works, but like performance is always concerned. What's different now? What what's the bottom line impact on what country do now that they couldn't do before. >>So the bottom line impact is that AI is now accessible for the enterprise across there. Called their mainstream data centre, enterprises typically use consistent building blocks like the Dell VX rail products, right where they have to use servers that are common standard across the data centre. And now, with NVIDIA Enterprise and B M R V sphere, they're able to manage their AI in the same way that they're used to managing their data centre today. So there's no retraining. There's no separate clusters. There isn't like a shadow I t. So this really allows an enterprise to efficiently deploy um, and cost effectively Deploy it, uh, it without because there's no performance degradation without compromising what their their their data scientists and researchers are looking for. And then the flip side is for the data science and researcher, um, using some of the self service automation that I spoke about earlier, they're able to get a virtual machine today that maybe as a half a GPU as their models grow, they do more exploring. They might get a full GPU or or to GPS in a virtual machine. And their environment doesn't change because it's all connected to the back end storage. And so for the for the developer and the researcher, um, it makes it seamless. So it's really kind of a win for both Nike and for the user. And again, University of Pisa is doing some amazing things in terms of the workloads that they're doing, Um, and, uh and, uh, and are validating that performance. >>Weigh in on this. Share your opinion on or your reaction to that, What you can do now that you couldn't do before. Could you share your experience? >>Our experience is, uh, of course, if you if you go to your, uh, data scientists or researchers, the idea of, uh, sacrificing four months to flexibility at the beginning is not so well accepted. It's okay for, uh, for the Eid management, As John was saying, you have people that is know how to deal with the virtual infrastructure, so nothing changed for them. But at the end of the day, we were able to, uh, uh, test with our data. Scientists are researchers veteran The performance of us almost similar around really 95% of the performance for the internal developer developer to our work clothes. So we are not dealing with benchmarks. We have some, uh, work clothes that are internally developed and apply to healthcare music generator or some other strange project that we have inside and were able to show that the performance on the beautiful and their metal world were almost the same. We, the addition that individual world, you are much more flexible. You are able to reconfigure every finger very fast. You are able to design solution for your researcher, uh, in a more flexible way. An effective way we are. We were able to use the latest technologies from Dell Technologies and Vidia. You can imagine from the latest power edge the latest cuts from NVIDIA. The latest network cards from NVIDIA, like the blue Field to the latest, uh, switches to set up an infrastructure that at the end of the day is our winning platform for our that aside, >>a great collaboration. Congratulations. Exciting. Um, get the latest and greatest and and get the new benchmarks out their new playbooks. New best practises. I do have to ask you marriage, if you don't mind me asking why Look at virtualizing ai workloads. What's the motivation? Why did you look at virtualizing ai work clothes? >>Oh, for the sake of flexibility Because, you know, uh, in the latest couple of years, the ai resources are never enough. So we are. If you go after the bare metal, uh, installation, you are going into, uh, a world that is developing very fastly. But of course, you can afford all the bare metal, uh, infrastructure that your data scientists are asking for. So, uh, we decided to integrate our view. Dual infrastructure with AI, uh, resources in order to be able to, uh, use in different ways in a more flexible way. Of course. Uh, we have a We have a two parallels world. We still have a bare metal infrastructure. We are growing the bare metal infrastructure. But at the same time, we are growing our vehicle infrastructure because it's flexible, because we because our our stuff, people are happy about how the platform behaviour and they know how to deal them so they don't have to learn anything new. So it's a sort of comfort zone for everybody. >>I mean, no one ever got hurt virtualizing things that makes it makes things go better faster building on on that workloads. John, I gotta ask you, you're on the end video side. You You see this real up close than video? Why do people look at virtualizing ai workloads is the unification benefit. I mean, ai implies a lot of things, implies you have access to data. It implies that silos don't exist. I mean, that doesn't mean that's hard. I mean, is this real people actually looking at this? How is it working? >>Yeah. So? So again, um you know for all the benefits and activity today AI brings a I can be pretty complex, right? It's complex software to set up and to manage. And, um, within the day I enterprise, we're really focusing in on ensuring that it's easier for organisations to use. For example Um, you know, I mentioned you know, we we had introduced a virtual compute server bcs, um uh, two years ago and and that that has seen some some really interesting adoption. Some, uh, enterprise use cases. But what we found is that at the driver level, um, it still wasn't accessible for the majority of enterprises. And so what we've done is we've built upon that with NVIDIA Enterprise and we're bringing in pre built containers that remove some of the complexities. You know, AI has a lot of open source components and trying to ensure that all the open source dependencies are resolved so you can get the AI developers and researchers and data scientists. Actually doing their work can be complex. And so what we've done is we've brought these pre built containers that allow you to do everything from your initial data preparation data science, using things like video rapids, um, to do your training, using pytorch and tensorflow to optimise those models using tensor rt and then to deploy them using what we call in video Triton Server Inference in server. Really helping that ai loop become accessible, that ai workflow as something that an enterprise can manage as part of their common core infrastructure >>having the performance and the tools available? It's just a huge godsend people love. That only makes them more productive and again scales of existing stuff. Okay, great stuff. Great insight. I have to ask, What's next one's collaboration? This is one of those better together situations. It's working. Um, Mauricio, what's next for your collaboration with Dell VM Ware and video? >>We will not be for sure. We will not stop here. Uh, we are just starting working on new things, looking for new development, uh, looking for the next beast. Come, uh, you know, the digital world is something that is moving very fast. Uh, and we are We will not We will not stop here because because they, um the outcome of this work has been a very big for for our research group. And what John was saying This the fact that all the software stock for AI are simplified is something that has been, uh, accepted. Very well, of course you can imagine researching is developing new things. But for people that needs, uh, integrated workflow. The work that NVIDIA has done in the development of software package in developing containers, that gives the end user, uh, the capabilities of running their workloads is really something that some years ago it was unbelievable. Now, everything is really is really easy to manage. >>John mentioned open source, obviously a big part of this. What are you going to? Quick, Quick follow if you don't mind. Are you going to share your results so people can can look at this so they can have an easier path to AI? >>Oh, yes, of course. All the all the work, The work that is done at an ideal level from University of Visa is here to be shared. So we we as, uh, as much as we have time to write down we are. We are trying to find a way to share the results of the work that we're doing with our partner, Dell and NVIDIA. So for sure will be shared >>well, except we'll get that link in the comments, John, your thoughts. Final thoughts on the on the on the collaboration, uh, with the University of Pisa and Delvian, where in the video is is all go next? >>Sure. So So with University of Pisa, We're you know, we're absolutely, uh, you know, grateful to Morocco and his team for the work they're doing and the feedback they're sharing with us. Um, we're learning a lot from them in terms of things we can do better and things that we can add to the product. So that's a fantastic collaboration. Um, I believe that Mauricio has a session at the M World. So if you want to actually learn about some of the workloads, um, you know, they're doing, like, music generation. They're doing, you know, covid 19 research. They're doing deep, multi level, uh, deep learning training. So there's some really interesting work there, and so we want to continue that partnership. University of Pisa, um, again, across all four of us, uh, university, NVIDIA, Dell and VM Ware. And then on the tech side, you know, for our enterprise customers, um, you know, one of the things that we actually didn't speak much about was, um I mentioned that the product is optimised certified and supported, and I think that support cannot be understated. Right? So as enterprises start to move into these new areas, they want to know that they can pick up the phone and call in video or VM ware. Adele, and they're going to get support for these new workloads as they're running them. Um, we were also continuing, uh, you know, to to think about we spent a lot of time today on, like, the developer side of things and developing ai. But the flip side of that, of course, is that when those ai apps are available or ai enhanced apps, right, Pretty much every enterprise app today is adding a I capabilities all of our partners in the enterprise software space and so you can think of a beady eye enterprises having a runtime component so that as you deploy your applications into the data centre, they're going to be automatically take advantage of the GPS that you have there. And so we're seeing this, uh, future as you're talking about the collaboration going forward, where the standard data centre building block still maintains and is going to be something like a VX rail two U server. But instead of just being CPU storage and RAM, they're all going to go with CPU, GPU, storage and RAM. And that's going to be the norm. And every enterprise application is going to be infused with AI and be able to take advantage of GPS in that scenario. >>Great stuff, ai for the enterprise. This is a great QB conversation. Just the beginning. We'll be having more of these virtualizing ai workloads is real impacts data scientists impacts that compute the edge, all aspects of the new environment we're all living in. John. Great to see you, Maurizio here to meet you and all the way in Italy looking for the meeting in person and good luck in your session. I just got a note here on the session. It's at VM World. Uh, it's session 22 63 I believe, um And so if anyone's watching, Want to check that out? Um, love to hear more. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks to >>its acute conversation. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah,

>>VM is one of the more interesting stories we've covered in the past decade. Born in 2006 with a simple premise to make backing up virtualized systems easy, fast, consistent and cost effective. The company's timing was perfect as it rode the coattails of the virtualization trend with a laser focus on developing great products that just work. That's the tagline fast forward to 2021 and the team has surpassed the billion dollar mark in revenues and is transformed into a leading the, leading the number one independent pure play company for backup and data protection. Software company is expanding its tam extending from its on prem routes into cloud, cloud data backup containers and SAS data protection and with me to talk about its progress and how it thinks about the future of Bill Largent is the Ceo and chairman of VM and Jim Krueger. The CMO at the company. Gentlemen welcome, Great to see you again. >>Hey, great to see you again. Dave. >>Thank you, Dave, Great to be here. >>It's great, great introduction but I appreciate that set up >>following you guys for a long time but you know, you don't sit still so give us the business update. I mean you guys are cranking you just put out a press release on your progress. You're pretty transparent for a private company. We love that. But give us the update bill. >>Yeah, thanks very much. I'll do that really. We're pretty excited about the press release. We said Q one how we're 25% up air our growth, we've made a great transition with our team um super strong on our performance, our economic performance. We like being transparent were transparent with Clearly our owners now insight venture partners and that's been a big transaction that occurred in the last 15, 14 months. And we're we're transparent with our customers, our partners, our distributors, so and our vendors. So we're just that way we like to make sure we're good partners with all those along the line and we care quite a bit about him. So I think that transparency helps us with our customer base and where we're going with our product and what we've had to offer. We're now over 4500, employees strong around the globe. 40 plus countries operating uh, well, in all those jurisdictions with the covid being coming out of, I would say, coming out of hopefully coming out of the rough time period from from the geographical geopolitical covid issues. So we believe we've done extremely well through then businesses continued to grow for us. So we're really excited about where things are, insight has done a great job and helping us advance our business and thinking about looking at new tams to go after. And we're pretty excited about it. So. Well >>I had 13 consecutive quarters of double-digit growth for a company of of of your age and size is is very impressive. You don't see that often. >>Yeah we've we work pretty hard at that. It's I'd say we really focus on that year to year even though our quarters just keep popping along very nicely for us. You know, starting back in oh six, having been around since then we did start at absolute zero. We didn't have a didn't have a bit in the bank at that time. Uh Now it's a whole different story with our second year over a billion dollars. And when you look at A. T. C. V. Kind of calculation and us transforming into an A. R. R. A. Heavy perpetual base. So we've transitioned with new product offering being all subscription base. So that's uh that's making us um making us even more competitive than than we have been passed. >>I like how you couch that because you don't want to be trapped into that, you know, the quarterly shot clock, but still it's quite impressive performance. And with the A. R. R. That sort of smooth things out, jim I want to ask you about vermin again, virtual this year, second year in a row. Uh You know, it's been it's been frustrating because we can't be face to face, but well, what have you learned about the sort of virtual events? How is it performed for you? Do you see that continuing in some way, shape or form when you get back to physical? How are you thinking about that? >>Yeah, we had, we had two major virtual events last year. And so to your point, we we did learn a lot in terms of what works, what doesn't work, and we've continued to refine refine the plans. Uh One thing that it does is it just really opens the doors for a much broader audience. Typically we get about 2000 ISH people Uh that attend in person for vermin. Uh and uh and last year we had actually about 28,000 people representing 150 countries that registered for the event, and we had over 11,000 that actually attended. Uh and the engagement was, was really good and we, we were our scores in terms of satisfaction, we're, you know, four plus out of five. And so I think we did a pretty good job, but we continue to learn one of the things that you need to do is you need to sort of shorten the agenda because the attention span is not not very long. So all of our sessions are 30 minutes or less and we've actually uh put it over two days where it's about 3.5 hours each day, so we try to keep it a little bit lighter. We still have 30 different breakout sessions. We have keynotes, um, uh, some great speakers that are coming, some great customers that are coming, but you have to integrate some fun, some incentives, things of that sort. So we've been creating a lot of buzz leading up to Vermont with um, a lot of social activity. We have some some new uh, VM Nike kicks that people can win, which has generated a lot of excitement uh, and uh, and we'll be doing a lot of incentives and prizes and things as a part of the event. Uh, so, so that that's a key learning that we, we, we know that people love and just creates a lot of us in addition to of course the great content >>VM has good swag too, is an analyst. I always appreciate that VM and pure storage as you guys are at the top of the living >>area and a >>big thanks for that. But I gotta ask you, so one of the hard parts because you guys are all channel, 100% channel have been from day zero. That's some, that's gotta be tough because we've been in this business a long time doing hybrid for a long time and the sellers love to be belly to belly. They never wanted sort of hybrid. So it's gotta be tougher for the partners as well who are big channel. So how do you integrate the partners? What can we expect, you know, in these types of things going forward? >>Yeah. So I can start with just with the man bill and then we can talk a little bit more, but for the moment we actually have a really strong partner registration, so partners are attending Vermont as well, we have separate sort of cordoned off content specifically for our partners, so they're definitely a key part of that. We have 38 uh sponsors uh that uh you know a part of our ecosystem uh and uh so you know, partners kind of overall are a really key part of iman in addition to to customers attending as well. Uh So that's one way that we continue to connect with with our partners >>bill, that's part of the tam expansion, obviously it's leverage. Right? >>Absolutely. It is and you know, we'll stay with that two tier distribution system that we have affected with those partners and distributors as to how we work through them. Uh Partners are absolutely key key for us all around the globe. Different kinds of partners in the U. S. A rather large wind sell a lot of small ones uh same in the media and same in A P. J. So we'll keep that network going. Why? Because they're they're an extension of the VM arm of our internal sales group that numbers well over 2000 of our people that focus on the selling. But the partners are key. They've adapted nicely I believe, to a lot of virtual events like we're going through now and they to sound like they're as excited as we are about getting things back in uh in person. >>So I always been fascinated by tam expansion. It's part of the Ceos job you have. You know, I love the fact that that incite the board promoted from within somebody. They tapped a Ceo who knew the business. You have to do a reset your at $5 billion Mantra. And so when you're thinking about your tam expansion, cast an acquisition cloud, uh, you guys have been into the SAS backup world for for a bit now it's starting to produce. How are you thinking about the future and opportunities ahead. >>We've got great opportunities with cast and so into the cooper Nettie space. That's a huge uh, market expansion for us in an evolving marketplace. So our goal was, let's be that thought leader. Let's get the best technology that's out there and then you'll see us execute really well. This on the sales side. This uh, this year also 2021 here and beyond the public cloud. Peace with azure with aws with our Google offering. So we're continuing to bring those up the up to up to speed in a sense of size because there's this tremendous future there, that's a big expansion of our team. Also I think Jim might talk a little bit about jumping into that security space a little bit. That is going to be big, It's big for us, It's a selling um selling feature that I think has come a long way. So it is about expanding that tam and our focus is always long term. It is, yeah, evaluation is important, but more important is that, you know, that long term customer service uh meaning new products for them like Office 3 65 that we brought out that has had tremendous growth for us. Uh so we're really excited about the growth, but again, our focus is on for that customer over the long term. It's uh it's years out, it's not the quarters and it's not about that valuation, it's really about how we keep them going in their business. >>So jim talk about that positioning, I mean, you're not a security company, you're not like building firewalls and and perimeters and so forth. But the notion of security and data protection plays in there. I mean, you think about these ransomware attacks, if I can actually recover from a ransomware attack, I got way more leverage and you're part of that recovery process. So those lines are blurring. How do you think about it? >>Yeah, that's that's definitely a key benefit that our solution provides in terms of protection from that. Uh And as we've had new releases into the market v 10 last year, the 11 this year, we've continued to up the ante relative to the protection from ransomware that's obviously a hot topic in the marketplace. And uh, and and we have some some great differentiators that we brought to market. And I think that that's part of why we're seeing the, you know, the strong growth, Uh, B 11, you know, Focus on ransomware, but over 200 new features and capabilities that we have brought to market to make it easier for our customers. We have kind of three key pillars around simplicity, flexibility, reliability, uh, and also just super powerful with the features and capabilities that we bring the market. So, uh, so we're seeing great traction there. Uh, and uh, and that's definitely an area that we're focused on. Uh, as again, we're not a security company, but we do protect from that. And some of the capabilities, you know, give you, if you do run into that situation, the capability to recover quickly and not have to pay a ransom And keep your business running, which is a key focus for us across all of our 400,000 plus customers. >>What about cloud? Cloud is a lot of people, you know, traditionally on prem vendors, they're like threatened by cloud. But clouds a gift for wien I mean it's like the internet is a gift is this big platform that's been built out, you can build on top of it. So how are you guys thinking about the cloud opportunity and the SAS data protection? >>Yeah, we want to go and >>Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, Jim. Yeah, it is a tremendous market opportunity for us. We've evolved as, you know, get back to our roots and 06, it was about um protecting those virtual workloads and we've evolved from there with evolved from there maintaining that that on print businesses is not going away. The public cloud businesses skyrocketed the private cloud business the same way. And we want to have products for all um all of those and the ability to move and move data's move, move workloads around, move those datas around, move that data around. So big piece for us, the casting piece, I keep getting back in how that might evolve with the SAs offering or not. Well, we'll tell over time period here as we work on that product roadmap. So, absolutely tremendous opportunity for us. >>Well, when you think about hybrid jim, I mean, the first thing that people say is for developers, containers, first thing you do is containerized the app and then you don't care where run anywhere right at once. Run it anywhere. That's a big opportunity. >>Yeah, so, so we're definitely focused on building a single platform for all environments. Uh So with the storage integration with the top three hyper scale ear's uh moving into kubernetes and containers, uh backup and protection. Uh So that that's a key part of our strategy. It's again to make it easy for customers To be able to manage all of their backup from one single console. Uh So so that's a key strategy and their own, you know, the research that we've done, I think, you know, due to Covid, we're actually seeing an increase in the move to the cloud, uh and we play in in in two key areas, ones with the hyper sailors and providing, you know, the backup and recovery within those environments, but then also with our service providers and as a service we're seeing really strong growth within that market and that ecosystem. So uh you know, working to to partner with them closely and continue to build that ecosystem and support them and their efforts to to uh to drive growth in the market as well. >>All right I'm gonna let you guys go the last question bill is so what's life like with insight? I know these guys are players. We've we've seen the moves they make is what's the future like? Is I. P. O. Still on the table? What can you tell us about life with insight? >>It's a great question. Well keep in mind we worked with insight in our prior entity uh starting in I think in 2002 we brought them in. So and our partner that's on our account has been with us since that time even though after we sold the business they were out of him. So uh No I'm really well they've been a big help their operations operationally efficiency, efficiently focused. I'd say they're helping us bring new ideas back to the M. And A activity back to your I. P. O. Question. I think that's an avenue for us. We clearly are pushing in that direction to get set up that way. What's it do for us? It gives us that bigger currency versus just cash. It gives you that stock currency to use on M. And A activity that you know I think you saw us do that with Kasten. Uh in the sense of acquiring M. And A. That's been different for vein. We build it from within that was a buy from outside. You'll see us do both both of those in the future. Very important I think uh you know without being too predictive I would say hopefully that's something you see in the I. P. O. Side that in the next 12 24 months a run like that. >>Well, Hey, uh, as an upside of observing the street wants growth, they want execution, they want consistency and you guys bring all those guys. Thanks so much for coming back in the Cube. Always a pleasure. And look forward to seeing you face to face. Hopefully before 22. >>It would be nice. >>All right. Thank you. Thanks. >>Dave. All right. >>You're welcome. Alright, keep it right, everybody. This is Dave Volonte for the Cubes, continuous coverage of them on 2021, the virtual edition, We're right back.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special cloud virtual event, theCUBE on cloud. This is our continuing editorial series of the most important stories in cloud. We're going to explore the cutting edge most relevant technologies and companies that will impact business and society. We have special guests from Jeff Barr, Michael Liebow, Jerry Chen, Ben Haynes, Michael skulk, Mike Feinstein from AWS all today are presenting the top startups in the AWS ecosystem. This is the AWS showcase of startups. I'm showing with Dave Vellante. Dave great to see you. >> Hey John. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> So awesome day today. We're going to feature a 10 grade companies amplitude, auto grid, big ID, cordial Dremio Kong, multicloud, Reltio stardog wire wheel, companies that we've talked to. We've researched. And they're going to present today from 10 for the rest of the day. What's your thoughts? >> Well, John, a lot of these companies were just sort of last decade, they really, were keyer kicker mode, experimentation mode. Now they're well on their way to hitting escape velocity which is very exciting. And they're hitting tens of millions dollars of ARR, many are planning IPO's and it's just it's really great to see what the cloud has enabled and we're going to dig into that very deeply today. So I'm super excited. >> Before we jump into the keynote (mumbles) our non Huff from AWS up on stage Jeremy is the brains behind this program that we're doing. We're going to do this quarterly. Jeremy great to see you, you're in the global startups program at AWS. Your job is to keep the crops growing, keep the startups going and keep the flow of innovation. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah. Made it to startup showcase day. I'm super excited. And as you mentioned my team the global startup program team, we kind of provide white glove service for VC backed startups and help them with go to market activities. Co-selling with AWS and we've been looking for ways to highlight all the great work they're doing and partnering with you guys has been tremendous. You guys really know how to bring their stories to life. So super excited about all the partner sessions today. >> Well, I really appreciate the vision and working with Amazon this is like truly a bar raiser from theCUBE virtual perspective, using the virtual we can get more content, more flow and great to have you on and bring that the top hot startups around data, data ops. Certainly the most important story in tech is cloud scale with data. You you can't look around and seeing more innovation happening. So I really appreciate the work. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, and don't forget, we're making this a quarterly series. So the next one we've already been working on it. The next one is Wednesday, June 16th. So mark your calendars, but super excited to continue doing these showcases with you guys in the future. >> Thanks for coming on Jeremy. I really appreciate it,. Dave so I want to just quick quickly before we get Jeff up here, Jeff Barr who's a luminary guests for us this week who has been in the industry has been there from the beginning of AWS the role of data, and what's happened in cloud. And we've been watching the evolution of Amazon web services from the beginning, from the startup market to dominate in the enterprise. If you look at the top 10 enterprise companies Amazon wasn't on that list in 2010 they weren't even bringing the top 10 Andy Jassy's keynote at reinvent this past year. Highlighted that fact, I think they were number five or four as vendor in just AWS. So interesting to see that you've been reporting and doing a lot of analysis on the role of data. What's your analysis for these startups and as businesses need to embrace the new technologies and be on the right side of history not part of that old guard, incumbent failed model. >> Well, I think again, if you look back on the early days of cloud, it was really about storage and networking and compute infrastructure. And then we collected all this data and now you're seeing the next generation of innovation and value. We're going to talk to Michael Liebow about this is really if you look at all the value points in the leavers, it's all around data and data is going through a massive change in the way that we think about it, that we talk about it. And you hear that a lot. Obviously you talk about the volumes, the giant volumes but there's something else going on as AWS brings the cloud to the edge. And of course it looks at the data centers, just another edge device, data is getting highly decentralized. And what we're seeing is data getting into the hands of business owners and data product builders. I think we're going to see a new parlance emerge and that's where you're seeing the competitive advantage. And if you look at all the real winners these days in the marketplace especially in the digital with COVID, it all comes back to the data. And we're going to talk about that a lot today. >> One of the things that's coming up in all of our cube interviews, certainly we've seen, I mean we've had a great observation space across all the ecosystems, but the clear thing that's coming out of COVID is speed, agility, scale, and data. If you don't have that data you are going to be a non-player. And I think I heard some industry people talking about the future of how the stock market's going to work and that if you're not truly in market with an AI or machine learning data value play you probably will be shorted on the stock market or delisted. I think people are looking at that as a table stakes competitive advantage item, where if you don't have some sort of data competitive strategy you're going to be either delisted or sold short. And that's, I don't think delisted but the point is this table-stakes Dave. >> Well, I think too, I think the whole language the lingua franca of data is changing. We talk about data as an asset all the time, but you think about it now, what do we do with assets? We protect it, we hide it. And we kind of we don't share it. But then on the other hand, everybody talks about sharing the data and that is a huge trend in the marketplace. And so I think that everybody is really starting to rethink the whole concept of data, what it is, its value and how we think about it, talk about it, share it make it accessible, and at the same time, protect it and make it governed. And I think you're seeing, computational governance and automation really hidden. Couldn't do this without the cloud. I mean, that's the bottom line. >> Well, I'm super excited to have Jeff Barr here from AWS as our special keynote guests. I've been following Jeff's career for a long, long time. He's a luminaries, he's a technical, he's in the industry. He's part of the community, he's been there from the beginning AWS just celebrate its 15th birthday as he was blogging hard. He's been a hardcore blogger. I think Jeff, you had one of the original ping service. If I remember correctly, you were part of the web services foundational kind of present at creation. No better guests to have you Jeff thanks for coming up on our stage. >> John and Dave really happy to be here. >> So I got to ask you, you've been blogging hard for the past decade or so, going hard and your job has evolved from blogging about what's new with Amazon. A couple of building blocks a few services to last reinvent them. You must have put out I don't know how many blog posts did you put out last year at every event? I mean, it must have been a zillion. >> Not quite a zillion. I think I personally wrote somewhere between 20 and 25 including quite a few that I did in the month or so run up to reinvent and it's always intense, but it's always really, really fun. >> So I've got to ask you in the past couple of years, I mean I quoted Andy Jassy's keynote where we highlight in 2010 Amazon wasn't even on the top 10 enterprise players. Now in the top five, you've seen the evolution. What is the big takeaway from your standpoint as you look at the enterprise going from Amazon really dominating the start of a year startups today, you're in the cloud, you're born in the cloud. There's advantage to that. Now enterprises are kind of being reborn in the cloud at the same time, they're building these new use cases rejuvenating themselves and having innovation strategy. What's your takeaway? >> So I love to work with our customers and one of the things that I hear over and over again and especially the last year or two is really the value that they're placing on building a workforce that has really strong cloud skills. They're investing in education. They're focusing on this neat phrase that I learned in Australia called upskilling and saying let's take our set of employees and improve their skill base. I hear companies really saying we're going to go cloud first. We're going to be cloud native. We're going to really embrace it, adopt the full set of cloud services and APIs. And I also see that they're really looking at cloud as part of often a bigger picture. They often use the phrase digital transformation, in Amazon terms we'd say they're thinking big. They're really looking beyond where they are and who they are to what they could be and what they could grow into. Really putting a lot of energy and creativity into thinking forward in that way. >> I wonder Jeff, if you could talk about sort of how people are thinking about the future of cloud if you look at where the spending action is obviously you see it in cloud computing. We've seen that as the move to digital, serverless Lambda is huge. If you look at the data it's off the charts, machine learning and AI also up there containers and of course, automation, AWS leads in all of those. And they portend a different sort of programming model a different way of thinking about how to deploy workloads and applications maybe different than the early days of cloud. What's driving that generally and I'm interested in serverless specifically. And how do you see the next several years folding out? >> Well, they always say that the future is the hardest thing to predict but when I talked to our enterprise customers the two really big things that I see is there's this focus that says we need to really, we're not simply like hosting the website or running the MRP. I'm working with one customer in particular where they say, well, we're going to start on the factory floor all the way up to the boardroom effectively from IOT and sensors on the factory floor to feed all the data into machine learning. So they understand that the factory is running really well to actually doing planning and inventory maintenance to putting it on the website to drive the analytics, to then saying, okay, well how do we know that we're building the right product mix? How do we know that we're getting it out through the right channels? How are our customers doing? So they're really saying there's so many different services available to us in the cloud and they're relatively easy and straightforward to deploy. They really don't think in the old days as we talked about earlier that the old days where these multi-year planning and deployment cycles, now it's much more straightforward. It's like let's see what we can do today. And this week and this month, and from idea to some initial results is a much, much shorter turnaround. So they can iterate a lot more quickly which is just always known to produce better results. >> Well, Jeff and the spirit of the 15th birthday of AWS a lot of services have been built from the original three. I believe it was the core building blocks and there's been a lot of history and it's kind of like there was a key decoupling of compute from storage, those innovations what's the most important architectural change if any has happened or built upon those building blocks with AWS that you could share with companies out there as many people are coming into the cloud not just lifting and shifting and having that innovation but really building cloud native and now hybrid full cloud operations, day two operations. However you want to look at it. That's a big thing. What architecturally has changed that's been innovative from those original building blocks? >> Well, I think that the basic architecture has proven to be very, very resilient. When I wrote about the 15 year birthday of Amazon S3 a couple of weeks ago one thing that I thought was really incredible was the fact that the same APIs that you could have used 15 years ago they all still work. The put, the get, the list, the delete, the permissions management, every last one of those were chosen with extreme care. And so they all still work. So one of the things you think about when you put APIs out there is in Amazon terms we always talk about going through a one-way door and a one way door says, once you do it you're committed for the indefinite future. And so you we're very happy to do that but we take those steps with extreme care. And so those basic building blocks so the original S3 APIs, the original EC2 APIs and the model, all those things really worked. But now they're running at this just insane scale. One thing that blows me away I routinely hear my colleagues talking about petabytes and exabytes, and we throw around trillions and quadrillions like they're pennies. It's kind of amazing. Sometimes when you hear the scale of requests per day or request per month, and the orders of magnitude are you can't map them back to reality anymore. They're simply like literally astronomical. >> If I can just jump in real quick Dave before you ask Jeff, I was watching the Jeff Bezos interview in 1999 that's been going around on LinkedIn in a 60 minutes interview. The interviewer says you are reporting that you can store a gigabyte of customer data from all their purchases. What are you going to do with that? He basically nailed the answer. This is in 99. We're going to use that data to create, that was only a gig. >> Well one of the things that is interesting to me guys, is if you look at again, the early days of cloud, of course I always talked about that in small companies like ours John could have now access to information technology that only big companies could get access to. And now you've seen we just going to talk about it today. All these startups rise up and reach viability. But at the same time, Jeff you've seen big companies get the aha moment on cloud and competition drives urgency and that drives innovation. And so now you see everybody is doing cloud, it's a mandate. And so the expectation is a lot more innovation, experimentation and speed from all ends. It's really exciting to see. >> I know this sounds hackneyed and overused but it really, really still feels just like day one. We're 15 plus years into this. I still wake up every morning, like, wow what is the coolest thing that I'm going to get to learn about and write about today? We have the most amazing customers, one of the things that is great when you're so well connected to your customers, they keep telling you about their dreams, their aspirations, their use cases. And we can just take that and say we can actually build awesome things to help you address those use cases from the ground on up, from building custom hardware things like the nitro system, the graviton to the machine learning inferencing and training chips where we have such insight into customer use cases because we have these awesome customers that we can make these incredible pieces of hardware and software to really address those use cases. >> I'm glad you brought that up. This is another big change, right? You're getting the early days of cloud like, oh, Amazon they're just using off the shelf components. They're not buying these big refrigerator sized disc drives. And now you're developing all this custom Silicon and vertical integration in certain aspects of your business. And that's because workload is demanding. You've got to get more specialized in a lot of cases. >> Indeed they do. And if you watch Peter DeSantis' keynote at re-invent he talked about the fact that we're researching ways to make better cement that actually produces less carbon dioxide. So we're now literally at the from the ground on up level of construction. >> Jeff, I want to get a question from the crowd here. We got, (mumbles) who's a good friend of theCUBE cloud Arate from the beginning. He asked you, he wants to know if you'd like to share Amazon's edge aspirations. He says, he goes, I mean, roadmaps. I go, first of all, he's not going to talk about the roadmaps, but what can you share? I mean, obviously the edge is key. Outpost has been all in the news. You obviously at CloudOps is not a boundary. It's a distributed network. What's your response to-- >> Well, the funny thing is we don't generally have technology roadmaps inside the company. The roadmap is always listen really well to customers not just where they are, but the customers are just so great at saying, this is where we'd like to go. And when we hear edge, the customers don't generally come to us and say edge, they say we need as low latency as possible between where the action happens within our factory floors and our own offices and where we might be able to compute, analyze, store make decisions. And so that's resulted in things like outposts where we can put outposts in their own data center or their own field office, wavelength, where we're working with 5G telecom providers to put computing storage in the carrier hubs of the various 5G providers. Again, with reducing latency, we've been doing things like local zones, where we put zones in an increasing number of cities across the country with the goal of just reducing the average latency between the vast majority of customers and AWS resources. So instead of thinking edge, we really think in terms of how do we make sure that our customers can realize their dreams. >> Staying on the flywheel that AWS has built on ship stuff faster, make things faster, smaller, cheaper, great mission. I want to ask you about the working backwards document. I know it's been getting a lot of public awareness. I've been, that's all I've learned in interviewing Amazon folks. They always work backwards. I always mentioned the customer and all the interviews. So you've got a couple of customer references in there check the box there for you. But working backwards has become kind of a guiding principles, almost like a Harvard Business School case study approach to management. As you guys look at this working backwards and ex Amazonians have written books about it now so people can go look at, it's a really good methodology. Take us back to how you guys work back from the customers because here we're featuring 10 startups. So companies that are out there and Andy has been preaching this to customers. You should think about working backwards because it's so fast. These companies are going into this enterprise market your ecosystem of startups to provide value. What things are you seeing that customers need to think about to work backwards from their customer? How do you see that? 'Cause you've been on the community side, you see the tech side customers have to move fast and work backwards. What are the things that they need to focus on? What's your observation? >> So there's actually a brand new book called "Working Backwards," which I actually learned a lot about our own company from simply reading the book. And I think to me, a principal part of learning backward it's really about humility and being able to be a great listener. So you don't walk into a customer meeting ready to just broadcast the latest and greatest that we've been working on. You walk in and say, I'm here from AWS and I simply want to learn more about who you are, what you're doing. And most importantly, what do you want to do that we're not able to help you with right now? And then once we hear those kinds of things we don't simply write down kind of a bullet item of AWS needs to improve. It's this very active listening process. Tell me a little bit more about this challenge and if we solve it in this way or this way which one's a better fit for your needs. And then a typical AWS launch, we might talk to between 50 and 100 customers in depth to make sure that we have that detailed understanding of what they would like to do. We can't always meet all the needs of these customers but the idea is let's see what is the common base that we can address first. And then once we get that first iteration out there, let's keep listening, let's keep making it better and better and better as quickly. >> A lot of people might poopoo that John but I got to tell you, John, you will remember this the first time we ever met Andy Jassy face-to-face. I was in the room, you were on the speaker phone. We were building an app on AWS at the time. And he was asking you John, for feedback. And he was probing and he pulled out his notebook. He was writing down and he wasn't just superficial questions. He was like, well, why'd you do it that way? And he really wanted to dig. So this is cultural. >> Yeah. I mean, that's the classic Amazon. And that's the best thing about it is that you can go from zero startups zero stage startup to traction. And that was the premise of the cloud. Jeff, I want to get your thoughts and commentary on this love to get your opinion. You've seen this grow from the beginning. And I remember 'cause I've been playing with AWS since the beginning as well. And it says as an entrepreneur I remember my first EC2 instance that didn't even have custom domain support. It was the long URL. You seen the startups and now that we've been 15 years in, you see Dropbox was it just a startup back in the day. I remember these startups that when they were coming they were all born on Amazon, right? These big now unicorns, you were there when these guys were just developers and these gals. So what's it like, I mean, you see just the growth like here's a couple of people with them ideas rubbing nickels together, making magic happen who knows what's going to turn into, you've been there. What's it been like? >> It's been a really unique journey. And to me like the privilege of a lifetime, honestly I've like, you always want to be part of something amazing and you aspire to it and you study hard and you work hard and you always think, okay, somewhere in this universe something really cool is about to happen. And if you're really, really lucky and just a million great pieces of luck like lineup in series, sometimes it actually all works out and you get to be part of something like this when it does you don't always fully appreciate just how awesome it is from the inside, because you're just there just like feeding the machine and you are just doing your job just as fast as you possibly can. And in my case, it was listening to teams and writing blog posts about their launches and sharing them on social media, going out and speaking, you do it, you do it as quickly as possible. You're kind of running your whole life as you're doing that as well. And suddenly you just take a little step back and say, wow we did this kind of amazing thing, but we don't tend to like relax and say, okay, we've done it at Amazon. We get to a certain point. We recognize it. And five minutes later, we're like, okay, let's do the next amazingly good thing. But it's been this just unique privilege and something that I never thought I'd be fortunate enough to be a part of. >> Well, then the last few minutes we have Jeff I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us for this inaugural launch of theCUBE on cloud startup showcase. We are showcasing 10 startups here from your ecosystem. And a lot of people who know AWS for the folks that don't you guys pride yourself on community and ecosystem the global startups program that Jeremy and his team are running. You guys nurture these startups. You want them to be successful. They're vectoring out into the marketplace with growth strategy, helping customers. What's your take on this ecosystem? As customers are out there listening to this what's your advice to them? How should they engage? Why is these sets of start-ups so important? >> Well, I totally love startups and I've spent time in several startups. I've spent other time consulting with them. And I think we're in this incredible time now wheres, it's so easy and straightforward to get those basic resources, to get your compute, to get your storage, to get your databases, to get your machine learning and to take that and to really focus on your customers and to build what you want. And we see this actual exponential growth. And we see these startups that find something to do. They listen to one of their customers, they build that solution. And they're just that feedback cycle gets started. It's really incredible. And I love to see the energy of these startups. I love to hear from them. And at any point if we've got an AWS powered startup and they build something awesome and want to share it with me, I'm all ears. I love to hear about them. Emails, Twitter mentions, whatever I'll just love to hear about all this energy all those great success with our startups. >> Jeff Barr, thank you for coming on. And congratulations, please pass on to Andy Jassy who's going to take over for Jeff Bezos and I saw the big news that he's picking a successor an Amazonian coming back into the fold, Adam. So congratulations on that. >> I will definitely pass on your congratulations to Andy and I worked with Adam in the past when AWS was just getting started and really looking forward to seeing him again, welcoming back and working with him. >> All right, Jeff Barr with AWS guys check out his Twitter and all the social coordinates. He is pumping out all the resources you need to know about if you're a developer or you're an enterprise looking to go to the next level, next generation, modern infrastructure. Thanks Jeff for coming on. Really appreciate it. Our next guests want to bring up stage Michael Liebow from McKinsey cube alumni, who is a great guest who is very timely in his McKinsey role with a paper he and his colleagues put out called cloud's trillion dollar prize up for grabs. Michael, thank you for coming up on stage with Dave and I. >> Hey, great to be here, John. Thank you. >> One of the things I loved about this and why I wanted you to come on was not only is the report awesome. And Dave has got a zillion questions, he want us to drill into. But in 2015, we wrote a story called Andy Jassy trillion dollar baby on Forbes, and then on medium and silken angle where we were the first ones to profile Andy Jassy and talk about this trillion dollar term. And Dave came up with the calculation and people thought we were crazy. What are you talking about trillion dollar opportunity. That was in 2015. You guys have put this together with a serious research report with methodology and you left a lot on the table. I noticed in the report you didn't even have a whole section quantified. So I think just scratching the surface trillion. I'd be a little light, Dave, so let's dig into it, Michael thanks for coming on. >> Well, and I got to say, Michael that John's a trillion dollar baby was revenue. Yours is EBITDA. So we're talking about seven to X, seven to eight X. What we were talking back then, but great job on the report. Fantastic work. >> Thank you. >> So tell us about the report gives a quick lowdown. I got some questions. You guys are unlocking the value drivers but give us a quick overview of this report that people can get for free. So everyone who's registered will get a copy but give us a quick rundown. >> Great. Well the question I think that has bothered all of us for a long time is what's the business value of cloud and how do you quantify it? How do you specify it? Because a lot of people talk around the infrastructure or technical value of cloud but that actually is a big problem because it just scratches the surface of the potential of what cloud can mean. And we focus around the fortune 500. So we had to box us in somewhat. And so focusing on the fortune 500 and fast forwarding to 2030, we put out this number that there's over a trillion dollars worth of value. And we did a lot of analysis using research from a variety of partners, using third-party research, primary research in order to come up with this view. So the business value is two X the technical value of cloud. And as you just pointed out, there is a whole unlock of additional value where organizations can pioneer on some of the newest technologies. And so AWS and others are creating platforms in order to do not just machine learning and analytics and IOT, but also for quantum or mixed reality for blockchain. And so organizations specific around the fortune 500 that aren't leveraging these capabilities today are going to get left behind. And that's the message we were trying to deliver that if you're not doing this and doing this with purpose and with great execution, that others, whether it's others in your industry or upstarts who were motioning into your industry, because as you say cloud democratizes compute, it provides these capabilities and small companies with talent. And that's what the skills can leverage these capabilities ahead of slow moving incumbents. And I think that was the critical component. So that gives you the framework. We can deep dive based on your questions. >> Well before we get into the deep dive, I want to ask you we have startups being showcased here as part of the, it will showcase, they're coming out of the ecosystem. They have a lot of certification from Amazon and they're secure, which is a big issue. Enterprises that you guys talk to McKinsey speaks directly to I call the boardroom CXOs, the top executives. Are they realizing that the scale and timing of this agility window? I mean, you want to go through these key areas that you would break out but as startups become more relevant the boardrooms that are making these big decisions realize that their businesses are up for grabs. Do they realize that all this wealth is shifting? And do they see the role of startups helping them? How did you guys come out of them and report on that piece? >> Well in terms of the whole notion, we came up with this framework which looked at the opportunity. We talked about it in terms of three dimensions, rejuvenate, innovate and pioneer. And so from the standpoint of a board they're more than focused on not just efficiency and cost reduction basically tied to nation, but innovation tied to analytics tied to machine learning, tied to IOT, tied to two key attributes of cloud speed and scale. And one of the things that we did in the paper was leverage case examples from across industry, across-region there's 17 different case examples. My three favorite is one is Moderna. So software for life couldn't have delivered the vaccine as fast as they did without cloud. My second example was Goldman Sachs got into consumer banking is the platform behind the Apple card couldn't have done it without leveraging cloud. And the third example, particularly in early days of the pandemic was Zoom that added five to 6,000 servers a night in order to scale to meet the demand. And so all three of those examples, plus the other 14 just indicate in business terms what the potential is and to convince boards and the C-suite that if you're not doing this, and we have some recommendations in terms of what CEOs should do in order to leverage this but to really take advantage of those capabilities. >> Michael, I think it's important to point out the approach at sometimes it gets a little wonky on the methodology but having done a lot of these types of studies and observed there's a lot of superficial studies out there, a lot of times people will do, they'll go I'll talk to a customer. What kind of ROI did you get? And boom, that's the value study. You took a different approach. You have benchmark data, you talked to a lot of companies. You obviously have a lot of financial data. You use some third-party data, you built models, you bounded it. And ultimately when you do these things you have to ascribe a value contribution to the cloud component because fortunate 500 companies are going to grow even if there were no cloud. And the way you did that is again, you talk to people you model things, and it's a very detailed study. And I think it's worth pointing out that this was not just hey what'd you get from going to cloud before and after. This was a very detailed deep dive with really a lot of good background work going into it. >> Yeah, we're very fortunate to have the McKinsey Global Institute which has done extensive studies in these areas. So there was a base of knowledge that we could leverage. In fact, we looked at over 700 use cases across 19 industries in order to unpack the value that cloud contributed to those use cases. And so getting down to that level of specificity really, I think helps build it from the bottom up and then using cloud measures or KPIs that indicate the value like how much faster you can deploy, how much faster you can develop. So these are things that help to kind of inform the overall model. >> Yeah. Again, having done hundreds, if not thousands of these types of things, when you start talking to people the patterns emerge, I want to ask you there's an exhibit tool in here, which is right on those use cases, retail, healthcare, high-tech oil and gas banking, and a lot of examples. And I went through them all and virtually every single one of them from a value contribution standpoint the unlocking value came down to data large data sets, document analysis, converting sentiment analysis, analytics. I mean, it really does come down to the data. And I wonder if you could comment on that and why is it that cloud is enabled that? >> Well, it goes back to scale. And I think the word that I would use would be data gravity because we're talking about massive amounts of data. So as you go through those kind of three dimensions in terms of rejuvenation one of the things you can do as you optimize and clarify and build better resiliency the thing that comes into play I think is to have clean data and data that's available in multiple places that you can create an underlying platform in order to leverage the services, the capabilities around, building out that structure. >> And then if I may, so you had this again I want to stress as EBITDA. It's not a revenue and it's the EBITDA potential as a result of leveraging cloud. And you listed a number of industries. And I wonder if you could comment on the patterns that you saw. I mean, it doesn't seem to be as simple as Negroponte bits versus Adam's in terms of your ability to unlock value. What are the patterns that you saw there and why are the ones that have so much potential why are they at the top of the list? >> Well, I mean, they're ranked based on impact. So the five greatest industries and again, aligned by the fortune 500. So it's interesting when you start to unpack it that way high-tech oil, gas, retail, healthcare, insurance and banking, right? Top. And so we did look at the different solutions that were in that, tried to decipher what was fully unlocked by cloud, what was accelerated by cloud and what was perhaps in this timeframe remaining on premise. And so we kind of step by step, expert by expert, use case by use case deciphered of the 700, how that applied. >> So how should practitioners within organizations business but how should they use this data? What would you recommend, in terms of how they think about it, how they apply it to their business, how they communicate? >> Well, I think clearly what came out was a set of best practices for what organizations that were leveraging cloud and getting the kind of business return, three things stood out, execution, experience and excellence. And so for under execution it's not just the transaction, you're not just buying cloud you're changing their operating model. And so if the organization isn't kind of retooling the model, the processes, the workflows in order to support creating the roles then they aren't going to be able, they aren't going to be successful. In terms of experience, that's all about hands-on. And so you have to dive in, you have to start you have to apply yourself, you have to gain that applied knowledge. And so if you're not gaining that experience, you're not going to move forward. And then in terms of excellence, and it was mentioned earlier by Jeff re-skilling, up-skilling, if you're not committed to your workforce and pushing certification, pushing training in order to really evolve your workforce or your ways of working you're not going to leverage cloud. So those three best practices really came up on top in terms of what a mature cloud adopter looks like. >> That's awesome. Michael, thank you for coming on. Really appreciate it. Last question I have for you as we wrap up this trillion dollar segment upon intended is the cloud mindset. You mentioned partnering and scaling up. The role of the enterprise and business is to partner with the technologists, not just the technologies but the companies talk about this cloud native mindset because it's not just lift and shift and run apps. And I have an IT optimization issue. It's about innovating next gen solutions and you're seeing it in public sector. You're seeing it in the commercial sector, all areas where the relationship with partners and companies and startups in particular, this is the startup showcase. These are startups are more relevant than ever as the tide is shifting to a new generation of companies. >> Yeah, so a lot of think about an engine. A lot of things have to work in order to produce the kind of results that we're talking about. Brad, you're more than fair share or unfair share of trillion dollars. And so CEOs need to lead this in bold fashion. Number one, they need to craft the moonshot or the Marshot. They have to set that goal, that aspiration. And it has to be a stretch goal for the organization because cloud is the only way to enable that achievement of that aspiration that's number one, number two, they really need a hardheaded economic case. It has to be defined in terms of what the expectation is going to be. So it's not loose. It's very, very well and defined. And in some respects time box what can we do here? I would say the cloud data, your organization has to move in an agile fashion training DevOps, and the fourth thing, and this is where the startups come in is the cloud platform. There has to be an underlying platform that supports those aspirations. It's an art, it's not just an architecture. It's a living, breathing live service with integrations, with standardization, with self service that enables this whole program. >> Awesome, Michael, thank you for coming on and sharing the McKinsey perspective. The report, the clouds trillion dollar prize is up for grabs. Everyone who's registered for this event will get a copy. We will appreciate it's also on the website. We'll make sure everyone gets a copy. Thanks for coming, I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Thanks, Michael. >> Okay, Dave, big discussion there. Trillion dollar baby. That's the cloud. That's Jassy. Now he's going to be the CEO of AWS. They have a new CEO they announced. So that's going to be good for Amazon's kind of got clarity on the succession to Jassy, trusted soldier. The ecosystem is big for Amazon. Unlike Microsoft, they have the different view, right? They have some apps, but they're cultivating as many startups and enterprises as possible in the cloud. And no better reason to change gears here and get a venture capitalist in here. And a friend of theCUBE, Jerry Chen let's bring them up on stage. Jerry Chen, great to see you partner at Greylock making all the big investments. Good to see you >> John hey, Dave it's great to be here with you guys. Happy marks.Can you see that? >> Hey Jerry, good to see you man >> So Jerry, our first inaugural AWS startup showcase we'll be doing these quarterly and we're going to be featuring the best of the best, you're investing in all the hot startups. We've been tracking your careers from the beginning. You're a good friend of theCUBE. Always got great commentary. Why are startups more important than ever before? Because in the old days we've talked about theCUBE before startups had to go through certain certifications and you've got tire kicking, you got to go through IT. It's like going through security at the airport, take your shoes off, put your belt on thing. I mean, all kinds of things now different. The world has changed. What's your take? >> I think startups have always been a great way for experimentation, right? It's either new technologies, new business models, new markets they can move faster, the experiment, and a lot of startups don't work, unfortunately, but a lot of them turned to be multi-billion dollar companies. I thing startup is more important because as we come out COVID and economy is recovery is a great way for individuals, engineers, for companies for different markets to try different things out. And I think startups are running multiple experiments at the same time across the globe trying to figure how to do things better, faster, cheaper. >> And McKinsey points out this use case of rejuvenate, which is essentially retool pivot essentially get your costs down or and the next innovation here where there's Tam there's trillion dollars on unlock value and where the bulk of it is is the innovation, the new use cases and existing new use cases. This is where the enterprises really have an opportunity. Could you share your thoughts as you invest in the startups to attack these new waves these new areas where it may not look the same as before, what's your assessment of this kind of innovation, these new use cases? >> I think we talked last time about kind of changing the COVID the past year and there's been acceleration of things like how we work, education, medicine all these things are going online. So I think that's very clear. The first wave of innovation is like, hey things we didn't think we could be possible, like working remotely, e-commerce everywhere, telemedicine, tele-education, that's happening. I think the second order of fact now is okay as enterprises realize that this is the new reality everything is digital, everything is in the cloud and everything's going to be more kind of electronic relation with the customers. I think that we're rethinking what does it mean to be a business? What does it mean to be a bank? What does it mean to be a car company or an energy company? What does it mean to be a retailer? Right? So I think the rethinking that brands are now global, brands are all online. And they now have relationships with the customers directly. So I think if you are a business now, you have to re experiment or rethink about your business model. If you thought you were a Nike selling shoes to the retailers, like half of Nike's revenue is now digital right all online. So instead of selling sneakers through stores they're now a direct to consumer brand. And so I think every business is going to rethink about what the AR. Airbnb is like are they in the travel business or the experience business, right? Airlines, what business are they in? >> Yeah, theCUBE we're direct to consumer virtual totally opened up our business model. Dave, the cloud premise is interesting now. I mean, let's reset this where we are, right? Andy Jassy always talks about the old guard, new guard. Okay we've been there done that, even though they still have a lot of Oracle inside AWS which we were joking the other day, but this new modern era coming out of COVID Jerry brings this up. These startups are going to be relevant take territory down in the enterprises as new things develop. What's your premise of the cloud and AWS prospect? >> Well, so Jerry, I want to to ask you. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> The other night, last Thursday, I think we were in Clubhouse. Ben Horowitz was on and Martine Casado was laying out this sort of premise about cloud startups saying basically at some point they're going to have to repatriate because of the Amazon VIG. I mean, I'm paraphrasing and I guess the premise was that there's this variable cost that grows as you scale but I kind of shook my head and I went back. You saw, I put it out on Twitter a clip that we had the a couple of years ago and I don't think, I certainly didn't see it that way. Maybe I'm getting it wrong but what's your take on that? I just don't see a snowflake ever saying, okay we're going to go build our own data center or we're going to repatriate 'cause they're going to end up like service now and have this high cost infrastructure. What do you think? >> Yeah, look, I think Martin is an old friend from VMware and he's brilliant. He has placed a lot of insights. There is some insights around, at some point a scale, use of startup can probably run things more cost-effectively in your own data center, right? But I think that's fewer companies more the vast majority, right? At some point, but number two, to your point, Dave going on premise versus your own data center are two different things. So on premise in a customer's environment versus your own data center are two different worlds. So at some point some scale, a lot of the large SaaS companies run their own data centers that makes sense, Facebook and Google they're at scale, they run their own data centers, going on premise or customer's environment like a fortune 100 bank or something like that. That's a different story. There are reasons to do that around compliance or data gravity, Dave, but Amazon's costs, I don't think is a legitimate reason. Like if price is an issue that could be solved much faster than architectural decisions or tech stacks, right? Once you're on the cloud I think the thesis, the conversation we had like a year ago was the way you build apps are very different in the cloud and the way built apps on premise, right? You have assume storage, networking and compute elasticity that's independent each other. You don't really get that in a customer's data center or their own environment even with all the new technologies. So you can't really go from cloud back to on-premise because the way you build your apps look very, very different. So I would say for sure at some scale run your own data center that's why the hyperscale guys do that. On-premise for customers, data gravity, compliance governance, great reasons to go on premise but for vast majority of startups and vast majority of customers, the network effects you get for being in the cloud, the network effects you get from having everything in this alas cloud service I think outweighs any of the costs. >> I couldn't agree more and that's where the data is, at the way I look at it is your technology spend is going to be some percentage of revenue and it's going to be generally flat over time and you're going to have to manage it whether it's in the cloud or it's on prem John. >> Yeah, we had a quote on theCUBE on the conscious that had Jerry I want to get your reaction to this. The executive said, if you don't have an AI strategy built into your value proposition you will be shorted as a stock on wall street. And I even went further. So you'll probably be delisted cause you won't be performing with a tongue in cheek comment. But the reality is that that's indicating that everyone has to have AI in their thing. Mainly as a reality, what's your take on that? I know you've got a lot of investments in this area as AI becomes beyond fashion and becomes table stakes. Where are we on that spectrum? And how does that impact business and society as that becomes a key part of the stack and application stack? >> Yeah, I think John you've seen AI machine learning turn out to be some kind of novelty thing that a bunch of CS professors working on years ago to a funnel piece of every application. So I would say the statement of the sentiment's directionally correct that 20 years ago if you didn't have a web strategy or a website as a company, your company be sure it, right? If you didn't have kind of a internet website, you weren't real company. Likewise, if you don't use AI now to power your applications or machine learning in some form or fashion for sure you'd be at a competitive disadvantage to everyone else. And just like if you're not using software intelligently or the cloud intelligently your stock as a company is going to underperform the rest of the market. And the cloud guys on the startups that we're backing are making AI so accessible and so easy for developers today that it's really easy to use some level of machine learning, any applications, if you're not doing that it's like not having a website in 1999. >> Yeah. So let's get into that whole operation side. So what would you be your advice to the enterprises that are watching and people who are making decisions on architecture and how they roll out their business model or value proposition? How should they look at AI and operations? I mean big theme is day two operations. You've got IT service management, all these things are being disrupted. What's the operational impact to this? What's your view on that? >> So I think two things, one thing that you and Dave both talked about operation is the key, I mean, operations is not just the guts of the business but the actual people running the business, right? And so we forget that one of the values are going to cloud, one of the values of giving these services is you not only have a different technology stack, all the bits, you have a different human stack meaning the people running your cloud, running your data center are now effectively outsource to Amazon, Google or Azure, right? Which I think a big part of the Amazon VIG as Dave said, is so eloquently on Twitter per se, right? You're really paying for those folks like carry pagers. Now take that to the next level. Operations is human beings, people intelligently trying to figure out how my business can run better, right? And that's either accelerate revenue or decrease costs, improve my margin. So if you want to use machine learning, I would say there's two areas to think about. One is how I think about customers, right? So we both talked about the amount of data being generated around enterprise individuals. So intelligently use machine learning how to serve my customers better, then number two AI and machine learning internally how to run my business better, right? Can I take cost out? Can I optimize supply chain? Can I use my warehouses more efficiently my logistics more efficiently? So one is how do I use AI learning to be a more familiar more customer oriented and number two, how can I take cost out be more efficient as a company, by writing AI internally from finance ops, et cetera. >> So, Jerry, I wonder if I could ask you a little different subject but a question on tactical valuations how coupled or decoupled are private company valuations from the public markets. You're seeing the public markets everybody's freaking out 'cause interest rates are going to go up. So the future value of cash flows are lower. Does that trickle in quickly into the private markets? Or is it a whole different dynamic? >> If I could weigh in poly for some private markets Dave I would have a different job than I do today. I think the reality is in the long run it doesn't matter as much as long as you're investing early. Now that's an easy answer say, boats have to fall away. Yes, interest rates will probably go up because they're hard to go lower, right? They're effectively almost zero to negative right now in most of the developed world, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to trade my Twilio shares or Salesforce shares for like a 1% yield bond, right? I'm going to hold the high growth tech stocks because regardless of what interest rates you're giving me 1%, 2%, 3%, I'm still going to beat that with a top tech performers, Snowflake, Twilio Hashi Corp, bunch of the private companies out there I think are elastic. They're going to have a great 10, 15 year run. And in the Greylock portfolio like the things we're investing in, I'm super bullish on from Roxanne to Kronos fear, to true era in the AI space. I think in the long run, next 10 years these things will outperform the market that said, right valuation prices have gone up and down and they will in our careers, they have. In the careers we've been covering tech. So I do believe that they're high now they'll come down for sure. Will they go back up again? Definitely, right? But as long as you're betting these macro waves I think we're all be good. >> Great answer as usual. Would you trade them for NFTs Jerry? >> That $69 million people piece of artwork look, I mean, I'm a longterm believer in kind of IP and property rights in the blockchain, right? And I'm waiting for theCUBE to mint this video as the NFT, when we do this guys, we'll mint this video's NFT and see how much people pay for the original Dave, John, Jerry (mumbles). >> Hey, you know what? We can probably get some good bang for that. Hey it's all about this next Jerry. Jerry, great to have you on, final question as we got this one minute left what's your advice to the people out there that either engaging with these innovative startups, we're going to feature startups every quarter from the in the Amazon ecosystem, they are going to be adding value. What's the advice to the enterprises that are engaging startups, the approach, posture, what's your advice. >> Yeah, when I talk to CIOs and large enterprises, they often are wary like, hey, when do I engage a startup? How, what businesses, and is it risky or low risk? Now I say, just like any career managing, just like any investment you're making in a big, small company you should have a budget or set of projects. And then I want to say to a CIO, Hey, every priority on your wish list, go use the startup, right? I mean, that would be 10 for 10 projects, 10 startups. Probably too much risk for a lot of tech companies. But we would say to most CIOs and executives, look, there are strategic initiatives in your business that you want to accelerate. And I would take the time to invest in one or two startups each quarter selectively, right? Use the time, focus on fewer startups, go deep with them because we can actually be game changers in terms of inflecting your business. And what I mean by that is don't pick too many startups because you can't devote the time, but don't pick zero startups because you're going to be left behind, right? It'd be shorted as a stock by the John, Dave and Jerry hedge fund apparently but pick a handful of startups in your strategic areas, in your top tier three things. These really, these could be accelerators for your career. >> I have to ask you real quick while you're here. We've got a couple minutes left on startups that are building apps. I've seen DevOps and the infrastructure as code movement has gone full mainstream. That's really what we're living right now. That kind of first-generation commercialization of DevOps. Now DevSecOps, what are the trends that you've seen that's different from say a couple of years ago now that we're in COVID around how apps are being built? Is it security? Is it the data integration? What can you share as a key app stack impact (mumbles)? >> Yeah, I think there're two things one is security is always been a top priority. I think that was the only going forward period, right? Security for sure. That's why you said that DevOps, DevSecOps like security is often overlooked but I think increasingly could be more important. The second thing is I think we talked about Dave mentioned earlier just the data around customers, the data on premise or the cloud, and there's a ton of data out there. We keep saying this over and over again like data's new oil, et cetera. It's evolving and not changing because the way we're using data finding data is changing in terms of sources of data we're using and discovering and also speed of data, right? In terms of going from Basser real-time is changing. The speed of business has changed to go faster. So I think these are all things that we're thinking about. So both security and how you use your data faster and better. >> Yeah you were in theCUBE a number of years ago and I remember either John or I asked you about you think Amazon is going to go up the stack and start developing applications and your answer was you know what I think no, I think they're going to enable a new set of disruptors to come in and disrupt the SaaS world. And I think that's largely playing out. And one of the interesting things about Adam Selipsky appointment to the CEO, he comes from Tableau. He really helped Tableau go from that sort of old guard model to an ARR model obviously executed a great exit to Salesforce. And now I see companies like Salesforce and service now and Workday is potential for your scenario to really play out. They've got in my view anyway, outdated pricing models. You look at what's how Snowflake's pricing and the consumption basis, same with Datadog same with Stripe and new startups seem to really be a leading into the consumption-based pricing model. So how do you, what are your thoughts on that? And maybe thoughts on Adam and thoughts on SaaS disruption? >> I think my thesis still holds that. I don't think Selipsky Adam is going to go into the app space aggressively. I think Amazon wants to enable next generation apps and seeing some of the new service that they're doing is they're kind of deconstructing apps, right? They're deconstructing the parts of CRM or e-commerce and they're offering them as services. So I think you're going to see Amazon continue to say, hey we're the core parts of an app like payments or custom prediction or some machine learning things around applications you want to buy bacon, they're going to turn those things to the API and sell those services, right? So you look at things like Stripe, Twilio which are two of the biggest companies out there. They're not apps themselves, they're the components of the app, right? Either e-commerce or messaging communications. So I can see Amazon going down that path. I think Adam is a great choice, right? He was a longterm early AWS exact from the early days latent to your point Dave really helped take Tableau into kind of a cloud business acquired by Salesforce work there for a few years under Benioff the guy who created quote unquote cloud and now him coming home again and back to Amazon. So I think it'll be exciting to see how Adam runs the business. >> And John I think he's the perfect choice because he's got operations chops and he knows how to... He can help the startups disrupt. >> Yeah, and he's been a trusted soldier of Jassy from the beginning, he knows the DNA. He's got some CEO outside experience. I think that was the key he knows. And he's not going to give up Amazon speed, but this is baby, right? So he's got him in charge and he's a trusted lieutenant. >> You think. Yeah, you think he's going to hold the mic? >> Yeah. We got to go. Jerry Chen thank you very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on our inaugural cube on cloud AWS startup event. Now for the 10 startups, enjoy the sessions at 12:30 Pacific, we're going to have the closing keynote. I'm John Ferry for Dave Vellante and our special guests, thanks for watching and enjoy the rest of the day and the 10 startups. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of an AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to the AI ops virtual forum. Finally, some Artan extended to be talking with rich lane now, senior analyst, serving infrastructure and operations professionals at Forrester. Rich. It's great to have you today. >>Thank you for having me. I think it's going to be a really fun conversation to have today. >>It is. We're going to be setting the stage for, with Richard, for the it operations challenges and the need for AI ops. That's kind of our objective here in the next 15 minutes. So rich talk to us about some of the problems that enterprise it operations are facing now in this year, that is 2020 that are going to be continuing into the next year. >>Yeah, I mean, I think we've been on this path for a while, but certainly the last eight months has, uh, has accelerated, uh, this problem and, and brought a lot of things to light that, that people were, you know, they were going through the day to day firefighting as their goal way of life. Uh, it's just not sustainable anymore. You a highly distributed environment or in the need for digital services. And, you know, one of them has been building for a while really is in the digital age, you know, we're providing so many, uh, uh, the, the interactions with customers online. Um, we've, we've added these layers of complexity, um, to applications, to infrastructure, you know, or we're in the, in the cloud or a hybrid or multi-cloud, or do you know you name it using cloud native technologies? We're using legacy stuff. We still have mainframe out there. >>Uh, you know, the, just the, the vast amount of things we have to keep track of now and process and look at the data and signals from, it's just, it's a really untenable for, for humans to do that in silos now, uh, in, in, you know, when you add to that, you know, when companies are so heavily invested in gone on the digital transformation path, and it's accelerated so much in the last, uh, year or so that, you know, we're getting so much of our business in revenue derived from these services that they become core to the business. They're not afterthoughts anymore. It's not just about having a website presence. It's, it's about deriving core business value from the services you're providing to your, through your customers. And a lot of cases, customers you're never going to meet or see at that. So it's even more important to be vigilant. >>And on top of the quality of that service that you're giving them. And then when you think about just the staffing issues we have, there's just not enough bodies to go around it in operations anymore. Um, you know, we're not going to be able to hire, you know, like we did 10 years ago, even. Uh, so that's where we need the systems to be able to bring those operational efficiencies to bear. When we say operational efficiencies, we don't mean, you know, uh, lessening head count because we can't do that. That'd be foolish. What we mean is getting the head count. We have back to burping on and higher level things, you know, working on, uh, technology refreshes and project work that that brings better digital services to customers and get them out of doing these sort of, uh, low, uh, complexity, high volume tasks that they're spending at least 20%, if not more on our third day, each day. So I think that the more we can bring intelligence to bear and automation to take those things out of their hands, the better off we are going forward. >>And I'm sure those workers are wanting to be able to have the time to deliver more value, more strategic value to the organization, to their role. And as you're saying, you know, was the demand for digital services is spiking. It's not going to go down and as consumers, if w if we have another option and we're not satisfied, we're going to go somewhere else. So, so it's really about not just surviving this time right now, it's about how do I become a business that's going to thrive going forward and exceeding expectations that are now just growing and growing. So let's talk about AI ops as a facilitator of collaboration, across business folks, it folks developers, operations, how can it facilitate collaboration, which is even more important these days? >>Yeah. So one of the great things about it is now, you know, years ago, have I gone years, as they say, uh, we would buy a tool to fit each situation. And, you know, someone that worked in network and others who will somebody worked in infrastructure from a, you know, Linux standpoint, have their tool, somebody who's from storage would have their tool. And what we found was we would have an incident, a very high impact incident occur. Everybody would get on the phone, 24 people all be looking at their siloed tool, they're siloed pieces of data. And then we'd still have to try to like link point a to B to C together, you know, just to institutional knowledge. And, uh, there was just ended up being a lot of gaps there because we couldn't understand that a certain thing happening over here was related to an advantage over here. >>Um, now when we bring all that data into one umbrella, one data Lake, whatever we want to call it, a lot of smart analytics to that data, uh, and normalize that data in a way we can contextualize it from, you know, point a to point B all the way through the application infrastructure stack. Now, the conversation changes now, the conversation changes to here is the problem, how are we going to fix it? And we're getting there immediately versus three, four or five hours of, uh, you know, hunting and pecking and looking at things and trying to try to extrapolate what we're seeing across disparate systems. Um, and that's really valuable. And in what that does is now we can change the conversation for measuring things. And in server up time and data center, performance metrics as to how are we performing as a business? How are we overall in, in real time, how are businesses being impacted by service disruption? >>We know how much money losing per minute hour, or what have you, uh, and what that translate lights into brand damage and things along those lines, that people are very interested in that. And, you know, what is the effect of making decisions either brief from a product change side? You know, if we're, we're, we're always changing the mobile apps and we're always changing the website, but do we understand what value that brings us or what negative impact that has? We can measure that now and also sales, marketing, um, they run a campaign here's your, you know, coupon for 12% off today only, uh, what does that drive to us with user engagement? We can measure that now in real time, we don't have to wait for those answers anymore. And I think, you know, having all those data and understanding the cause and effect of things increases, it enhances these feedback loops of we're making decisions as a business, as a whole to make, bring better value to our customers. >>You know, how does that tie into ops and dev initiatives? How does everything that we do if I make a change to the underlying architectures that help move the needle forward, does that hinder things, uh, all these things factor into it. In fact, there into the customer experience, which is what we're trying to do at the end of the day, w w whether operations people like it or not, we are all in the customer experience business now. And we have to realize that and work closer than ever with our business and dev partners to make sure we're delivering the highest level of customer experience we can. >>Uh, customer experience is absolutely critical for a number of reasons. I always kind of think it's inextricably linked with employee experience, but let's talk about long-term value because as organizations and every industry has pivoted multiple times this year and will probably continue to do so for the foreseeable future, for them to be able to get immediate value that let's, let's not just stop the bleeding, but let's allow them to get a competitive advantage and be really become resilient. What are some of the, uh, applications that AI ops can deliver with respect to long-term value for an organization? >>Yeah, and I think that it's, you know, you touched upon this a very important point that there is a set of short term goals you want to achieve, but they're really going to be looking towards 12, 18 months down the road. What is it going to have done for you? And I think this helps framing out for you what's most important because it'd be different for every enterprise. Um, and it also shows the ROI of doing this because there is some, you know, change is going to be involved with things you're gonna have to do. But when you look at the, the, the longer time horizon of what it brings to your business as a whole, uh it's to me, at least it all seems, it seems like a no brainer to not do it. Um, you know, thinking about the basic things, like, you know, faster remediation of, of, uh, client impacting incidents, or maybe, maybe even predictive of sort of detection of these incidents that will affect clients. >>So now you're getting, you know, at scale, you know, it's very hard to do when you have hundreds of thousands of optics of the management that relate to each other, but now you're having letting the machines and the intelligence layer find out where that problem is. You know, it's not the red thing, it's the yellow thing. Go look at that. Um, it's reducing the amount of finger pointing and what have you like resolved between teams now, everybody's looking at the same data, the same sort of, uh, symptoms and like, Oh yeah, okay. This is telling us, you know, here's the root cause you should investigate this huge, huge thing. Um, and, and it's something we never thought we'd get to where, uh, this, this is where we smart enough to tell us these things, but this, again, this is the power of having all the data under one umbrella >>And the smart analytics. >>Um, and I think really, you know, it's a boat. Uh, if you look at where infrastructure and operations people are today, and especially, you know, eight months, nine months, whatever it is into the pandemic, uh, a lot of them are getting really burnt out with doing the same repetitive tasks over and over again. Um, just trying to keep the lights on, you know, we need, we need to extract those things for those people, uh, just because it just makes no sense to do something over and over again, the same remediation step, just we should automate those things. So getting that sort of, uh, you know, drudgery off their hands, if you will, and, and get them into, into all their important things they should be doing, you know, they're really hard to solve problems. That's where the human shine, um, and that's where, you know, having a, you know, really high level engineers, that's what they should be doing, you know, and just being able to do things I >>Think in a much faster, >>In a more efficient manner, when you think about an incident occurring, right. In, in a level, one technician picks that up and he goes and triaged that maybe run some tests. He has a script, >>Uh, or she, uh, and, >>You know, uh, they open a ticket and they enrich the ticket. They call it some log files. They can look up for the servers on it. You're in an hour and a half into an incident before anyone's even looked at it. If we could automate all of that, >>Why wouldn't we, that makes it easier for everyone. Um, >>Yeah. And I really think that's where the future is, is, is, is bringing this intelligent automation to bear, to take, knock down all the little things that consume the really, the most amount of time. When you think about it, if you aggregate it over the course of a quarter or a year, a great deal of your time is spent just doing that minutiae again, why don't we automate that? And we should. So I really think that's, that's where you get to look long-term. I think also the sense of we're going to be able to measure everything in the sense of business KPIs versus just IT-centric KPIs. That's really where we going to get to in the digital age. And I think we waited too long to do that. I think our operations models were all voted. I think, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of the KPIs we look at today are completely outmoded. They don't really change if you think about it. When we look at the monthly reports over the course of a year, uh, so let's do something different. And now having all this data and the smart analytics, we can do something different. Absolutely. I'm glad >>That you brought up kind of looking at the impact that AI ops can make on, on minutiae and burnout. That's a really huge problem that so many of us are facing in any industry. And we know that there's some amount of this that's going to continue for a while longer. So let's get our let's leverage intelligent automation to your point, because we can to be able to allow our people to not just be more efficient, but to be making a bigger impact. And there's that mental component there that I think is absolutely critical. I do want to ask you what are some of these? So for those folks going, all right, we've got to do this. It makes sense. We see some short-term things that we need. We need short-term value. We need long-term value as you've just walked us through. What are some of the obstacles that you'd say, Hey, be on the lookout for this to wipe it out of the way. >>Yeah. I, I think there's, you know, when you think about the obstacles, I think people don't think about what are big changes for their organization, right? You know, they're, they're going to change process. They're going to change the way teams interact. They're they're going to change a lot of things, but they're all for the better. So what we're traditionally really bad in infrastructure and operations is communication, marketing, a new initiative, right? We don't go out and get our peers agreement to it where the product owner is, you know, and say, okay, this is what it gets you. This is where it changes. People just hear I'm losing something, I'm losing control over something. You're going to get rid of the tools that I have, but I love I've spent years building out perfecting, um, and that's threatening to people and understandably so because people think if I start losing tools, I start losing head count. >>And then, whereas my department at that point, um, but that's not what this is all about. Uh, this, this isn't a replacement for people. This isn't a replacement for teams. This isn't augmentation. This is getting them back to doing the things they should be doing and less of the stuff they shouldn't be doing. And frankly, it's, it's about providing better services. So when in the end, it's counterintuitive to be against it because it's gonna make it operations look better. It's gonna make us show us that we are the thought leaders in delivering digital services that we can, um, constantly be perfecting the way we're doing it. And Oh, by the way, we can help the business be better. Also at the same time. Uh, I think some of the mistakes people really don't make, uh, really do make, uh, is not looking at their processes today, trying to figure out what they're gonna look like tomorrow when we bring in advanced automation and intelligence, uh, but also being prepared for what the future state is, you know, in talking to one company, they were like, yeah, we're so excited for this. >>Uh, we, we got rid of our old 15 year old laundering system and the same day we stepped a new system. Uh, one problem we had though, was we weren't ready for the amount of incidents that had generated on day one. And it wasn't because we did anything wrong or the system was wrong or what have you. It did the right thing actually, almost too. Well, what it did is it uncovered a lot of really small incidents through advanced correlations. We didn't know we had, so there were things lying out there that were always like, huh, that's weird. That system acts strange sometimes, but we can never pin it down. We found all of those things, which is good. It goes, but it kind of made us all kind of sit back and think, and then our readership are these guys doing their job. Right? >>And then we had to go through an evolution of, you know, just explaining we were 15 years behind from a visibility standpoint to our environment, but technologies that we deployed in applications had moved ahead and modernized. So this is like a cautionary tale of falling too far behind from a sort of a monitoring and intelligence and automation standpoint. Um, so I thought that was a really good story for something like, think about as Eagle would deploy these modern systems. But I think if he really, you know, the marketing to people, so they're not threatened, I think thinking about your process and then what's, what's your day one and then look like, and then what's your six and 12 months after that looks like, I think settling all that stuff upfront just sets you up for success. >>All right. Rich, take us home here. Let's summarize. How can clients build a business case for AI ops? What do you recommend? >>Yeah. You know, I actually get that question a lot. It's usually, uh, almost always the number one, uh, question in, in, um, you know, webinars like this and conversations that, that the audience puts in. So I wouldn't be surprised, but if that was true, uh, going forward from this one, um, yeah, people are like, you know, Hey, we're all in. We want to do this. We know this is the way forward, but the guy who writes the checks, the CIO, the VP of ops is like, you know, I I've signed lots of checks over the years for tools wise is different. Um, and when I guide people to do is to sit back and, and start doing some hard math, right. Uh, one of the things that resonates with the leadership is dollars and cents. It's not percentages. So saying, you know, it's, it brings us a 63% reduction and MTTR is not going to resonate. >>Uh, Oh, even though it's a really good number, you know, uh, I think what it is, you have to put it in terms of avoid, if we could avoid that 63%. Right. You know, um, what does that mean for our, our digital services as far as revenue, right. We know that every hour system down, I think, uh, you know, typically in the market, you see is about $500,000 an hour for enterprise. We'll add that up over the course of the year. What are you losing in revenue? Add to that brand damage loss of customers, you know, uh, Forrester puts out a really big, uh, casino, um, uh, customer experience index every year that measures that if you're delivering good Udall services, bad digital services, if you could raise that up, what does that return to you in revenue? And that's a key thing. And then you just look at the, the, uh, hours of lost productivity. >>I call it, I might call it something else, but I think it's a catchy name. Meaning if a core internal system is down say, and you know, you have a customer service desk of a thousand customer service people, and they can't do that look up or fix that problem for clients for an hour. How much money does that lose you? And you multiply it out. You know, average customer service desk person makes X amount an hour times this much time. This many times it happens. Then you start seeing the real, sort of a power of AI ops for this incident avoidance, or at least lowering the impact of these incidents. And people have put out in graphs and spreadsheets and all this, and then I'm doing some research around this actually to, to, to put out something that people can use to say, the project funds itself in six to 12 months, it's paid for itself. And then after that it's returning money to the business. Why would you not do that? And when you start framing the conversation, that way, the little light bulb turn on for the people that sign the checks. For sure. >>That's great advice for folks to be thinking about. I loved how you talked about the 63% reduction in something. I think that's great. What does it impact? How does it impact the revenue for the organization? If we're avoiding costs here, how do we drive up revenue? So having that laser focus on revenue is great advice for folks in any industry, looking to build a business case for AI ops. I think you set the stage for that rich beautifully, and you were right. This was a fun conversation. Thank you for your time. Thank you. And thanks for watching >>From around the globe with digital coverage. >>Welcome back to the Broadcom AI ops, virtual forum, Lisa Martin here talking with Eastman Nasir global product management at Verizon. We spent welcome back. >>Hi. Hello. Uh, what a pleasure. >>So 2020 the year of that needs no explanation, right? The year of massive challenges and wanting to get your take on the challenges that organizations are facing this year as the demand to deliver digital products and services has never been higher. >>Yeah. So I think this is something it's so close to all the far far, right? It's, uh, it's something that's impacted the whole world equally. And I think regardless of which industry you rent, you have been impacted by this in one form or the other, and the ICT industry, the information and communication technology industry, you know, Verizon being really massive player in that whole arena. It has just been sort of struck with this massive consummation we have talked about for a long time, we have talked about these remote surgery capabilities whereby you've got patients in Kenya who are being treated by an expert sitting in London or New York, and also this whole consciousness about, you know, our carbon footprint and being environmentally conscious. This pandemic has taught us all of that and brought us to the forefront of organization priorities, right? The demand. I think that's, that's a very natural consequence of everybody sitting at home. >>And the only thing that can keep things still going is this data communication, right? But I wouldn't just say that that is, what's kind of at the heart of all of this. Just imagine if we are to realize any of these targets of the world is what leadership is setting for themselves. Hey, we have to be carbon neutral by X year as a country, as a geography, et cetera, et cetera. You know, all of these things require you to have this remote working capabilities, this remote interaction, not just between humans, but machine to machine interactions. And this there's a unique value chain, which is now getting created that you've got people who are communicating with other people or communicating with other machines, but the communication is much more. I wouldn't even use the term real time because we've used real time for voice and video, et cetera. >>We're talking low latency, microsecond decision-making that can either cut somebody's, you know, um, our trees or that could actually go and remove the tumor, that kind of stuff. So that has become a reality. Everybody's asking for it, remote learning, being an extremely massive requirement where, you know, we've had to enable these, uh, these virtual classrooms ensuring the type of connectivity, ensuring the type of type of privacy, which is just so, so critical. You can't just have everybody in a go on the internet and access a data source. You have to be concerned about the integrity and security of that data as the foremost. So I think all of these things, yes, we have not been caught off guard. We were pretty forward-looking in our plans and our evolution, but yes, it's fast track the journey that we would probably believe we would have taken in three years. It has brought that down to two quarters where we've had to execute them. >>Right. Massive acceleration. All right. So you articulated the challenges really well. And a lot of the realities that many of our viewers are facing. Let's talk now about motivations, AI ops as a tool, as a catalyst for helping organizations overcome those challenges. >>So yeah. Now on that I said, you can imagine, you know, it requires microsecond decision-making which human being on this planet can do microsecond decision-making on complex network infrastructure, which is impacting end user applications, which have multitudes of effect. You know, in real life, I use the example of a remote surgeon. Just imagine that, you know, even because of you just use your signal on the quality of that communication for that microsecond, it could be the difference between killing somebody in saving somebody's life. And it's not predictable. We talk about autonomous vehicles. Uh, we talk about this transition to electric vehicles, smart motorways, et cetera, et cetera, in federal environment, how is all of that going to work? You have so many different components coming in. You don't just have a network and security anymore. You have software defined networking. That's coming, becoming a part of that. >>You have mobile edge computing that is rented for the technologies. 5g enables we're talking augmented reality. We're talking virtual reality. All of these things require that resources and why being carbon conscious. We told them we just want to build a billion data centers on this planet, right? We, we have to make sure that resources are given on demand and the best way of resources can be given on demand and could be most efficient is that the thing is being made at million microsecond and those resources are accordingly being distributed, right? If you're relying on people, sipping their coffees, having teas, talking to somebody else, you know, just being away on holiday. I don't think we're going to be able to handle that one that we have already stepped into. Verizon's 5g has already started businesses on that transformational journey where they're talking about end user experience personalization. >>You're going to have events where people are going to go, and it's going to be three-dimensional experiences that are purely customized for you. How, how does that all happen without this intelligence sitting there and a network with all of these multiple layers? So spectrum, it doesn't just need to be intuitive. Hey, this is my private IP traffic. This is public traffic. You know, it has to not be in two, or this is an application that I have to prioritize over another task to be intuitive to the criticality and the context of those transactions. Again, that's surgeons. So be it's much more important than postman setting and playing a video game. >>I'm glad that you think that that's excellent. Let's go into some specific use cases. What are some of the examples that you gave? Let's kind of dig deeper into some of the, what you think are the lowest hanging fruit for organizations kind of pan industry to go after. >>Excellent. Brian, and I think this, this like different ways to look at the lowest hanging fruit, like for somebody like revising who is a managed services provider, you know, very comprehensive medicines, but we obviously have food timing, much lower potentially for some of our customers who want to go on that journey. Right? So for them to just go and try and harness the power of the foods might be a bit higher hanging, but for somebody like us, the immediate ones would be to reduce the number of alarms that are being generated by these overlay services. You've got your basic network, then you've got your whole software defined networking on top of that, you have your hybrid clouds, you have your edge computing coming on top of that. You know? So all of that means if there's an outage on one device on the network, I want to make this very real for everybody, right? >>It's like device and network does not stop all of those multiple applications or monitoring tools from raising and raising thousands of alarm and everyone, one capacity. If people are attending to those thousands of alarms, it's like you having a police force and there's a burglary in one time and the alarm goes off and 50 bags. How, how are you kind of make the best use of your police force? You're going to go investigate 50 bags or do you want to investigate where the problem is? So it's as real as that, I think that's the first wins where people can save so much cost, which is coming from being wasted and resources running around, trying to figure stuff out immediately. I'm tied this with network and security network and security is something which has you did even the most, you know, I mean single screens in our engineering, well, we took it to have network experts, separate people, security experts, separate people to look for different things, but there are security events that can impact the performance of a network. >>And then just drop the case on the side of et cetera, which could be falsely attributed to the metric. And then if you've got multiple parties, which are then the chapter clear stakeholders, you can imagine the blame game that goes on finding fingers, taking names, not taking responsibility that don't has all this happened. This is the only way to bring it all together to say, okay, this is what takes priority. If there's an event that has happened, what is its correlation to the other downstream systems, devices, components, and these are applications. And then subsequently, you know, like isolating it to the right cost where you can most effectively resolve that problem. Thirdly, I would say on demand, virtualized resource, virtualized resources, the heart and soul, the spirit of status that you can have them on demand. So you can automate the allocation of these resources based on customer's consumption their peaks, their cramps, all of that comes in. >>You see, Hey, typically on a Wednesday, the traffic was up significantly for this particular application, you know, going to this particular data center, you could have this automated system, uh, which is just providing those resources, you know, on demand. And so it is to have a much better commercial engagement with customers and just a much better service assurance model. And then one more thing on top of that, which is very critical is that as I was saying, giving that intelligence to the networks to start having context of the criticality of a transaction, that doesn't make sense to them. You can't have that because for that, you need to have this, you know, monkey their data. You need to have multi-cam system, which are monitoring and controlling different aspects of your overall end user application value chain to be communicating with each other. And, you know, that's the only way to sort of achieve that goal. And that only happens with AI. It's not possible >>So it was when you clearly articulated some obvious, low hanging fruit and use cases that organizations can go after. Let's talk now about some of the considerations, you talked about the importance of a network and AI ops, the approach I assume, needs to be modular support needs to be heterogeneous. Talk to us about some of those key considerations that you would recommend. >>Absolutely. So again, basically starting with the network, because if there's, if the metrics sitting at the middle of all of this is not working, then things can communicate with each other, right? And the cloud doesn't work, nothing metal. That's the hardest part of this, but that's the frequency. When you talk about machine to machine communication or IOT, it's just the biggest transformation of the span of every company is going for IOT now to drive those costs, efficiencies, and had, something's got some experience, the integrity of the topic karma, right? The security, integrity of that. How do you maintain integrity of your data beyond just a secure network components? That is true, right? That's where you're getting to the whole arena blockchain technologies, where you have to use digital signatures or barcodes that machine then, and then an intelligence system is automatically able to validate and verify the integrity of the data and the commands that are being executed by those end-user told them what I need to tell them that. >>So it's IOT machines, right? That is paramount. And if anybody is not keeping that into their equation, that in its own self is any system that is therefore maintaining the integrity of your commands and your hold that sits on those, those machines. Right? Second, you have your network. You need to have any else platform, which is able to restless all the fast network information, et cetera. And coupled with that data integrity piece, because for the management, ultimately they need to have a coherent view of the analytics, et cetera, et cetera. They need to know where the problems are again, right? So let's say if there's a problem with the integrity of the commands that are being executed by the machine, that's a much bigger problem than not being able to communicate with that machine and the best thing, because you'd rather not talk to the machine or have to do anything if it's going to start doing wrong things. >>So I think that's where it is. It's very intuitive. It's not true. You have to have subsequently if you have some kind of faith and let me use that use case self autonomous vehicles. Again, I think we're going to see in the next five years, because he's smart with the rates, et cetera, it won't separate autonomous cars. It's much more efficient, it's much more space, et cetera, et cetera. So within that equation, you're going to have systems which will be specialists in looking at aspects and transactions related to those systems. For example, in autonomous moving vehicles, brakes are much more important than the Vipers, right? So this kind of intelligence, it will be multiple systems who have to sit, N nobody has to, one person has to go in one of these systems. I think these systems should be open source enough that they, if you were able to integrate them, right, if something's sitting in the cloud, you were able to integrate for that with obviously the regard of the security and integrity of your data that has to traverse from one system to the other extremely important. >>So I'm going to borrow that integrity theme for a second, as we go into our last question, and that is this kind of take a macro look at the overall business impact that AI ops can help customers make. I'm thinking of, you know, the integrity of teams aligning business in it, which we probably can't talk about enough. We're helping organizations really effectively measure KPIs that deliver that digital experience that all of us demanding consumers expect. What's the overall impact. What would you say in summary fashion? >>So I think the overall impact is a lot of costs. That's customized and businesses gives the time to the time of enterprises. Defense was inevitable. It's something that for the first time, it will come to life. And it's something that is going to, you know, start driving cost efficiencies and consciousness and awareness within their own business, which is obviously going to have, you know, it domino kind of an effect. So one example being that, you know, you have problem isolation. I talked about network security, this multi-layers architecture, which enables this new world of 5g, um, at the heart of all of it, it has to identify the problem to the source, right? Not be bogged down by 15 different things that are going wrong. What is causing those 15 things to go wrong, right? That speed to isolation in its own sense can make millions and millions of dollars to organizations after we organize it. Next one is obviously overall impacted customer experience. Uh, 5g was given out of your customers, expecting experiences from you, even if you're not expecting to deliver them in 2021, 2022, it would have customers asking for those experience or walking away, if you do not provide those experience. So it's almost like a business can do nothing every year. They don't have to reinvest if they just want to die on the line, businesses want remain relevant. >>Businesses want to adopt the latest and greatest in technology, which enables them to, you know, have that superiority and continue it. So from that perspective that continue it, he will read that they write intelligence systems that tank rationalizing information and making decisions supervised by people, of course were previously making some of those. >>That was a great summary because you're right, you know, with how demanding consumers are. We don't get what we want quickly. We churn, right? We go somewhere else and we could find somebody that can meet those expectations. So it has been thanks for doing a great job of clarifying the impact and the value that AI ops can bring to organizations that sounds really now is we're in this even higher demand for digital products and services, which is not going away. It's probably going to only increase it's table stakes for any organization. Thank you so much for joining me today and giving us your thoughts. >>Pleasure. Thank you. We'll be right back with our next segment. >>Digital applications and services are more critical to a positive customer and employee experience than ever before. But the underlying infrastructure that supports these apps and services has become increasingly complex and expanding use of multiple clouds, mobile and microservices, along with modern and legacy infrastructure can make it difficult to pinpoint the root cause when problems occur, it can be even more difficult to determine the business impact your problems that occur and resolve them efficiently. AI ops from Broadcom can help first by providing 360 degree visibility, whether you have hybrid cloud or a cloud native AI ops from Broadcom provides a clear line of sight, including apt to infrastructure and network visibility across hybrid environments. Second, the solution gives you actionable insights by correlating an aggregating data and applying AI and machine learning to identify root causes and even predict problems before users are impacted. Third AI ops from Broadcom provides intelligent automation that identifies potential solutions when problems occur applied to the best one and learns from the effectiveness to improve response in case the problem occurs. Again, finally, the solution enables organizations to achieve digit with jelly by providing feedback loops across development and operations to allow for continuous improvements and innovation through these four capabilities. AI ops from Broadcom can help you reduce service outages, boost, operational efficiency, and effectiveness and improve customer and employee experience. To learn more about AI ops from Broadcom, go to broadcom.com/ai ops from around the globe. >>It's the cube with digital coverage of AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome back to the AI ops virtual forum, Lisa Martin here with Srinivasan, Roger Rajagopal, the head of product and strategy at Broadcom. Raj, welcome here, Lisa. I'm excited for our conversation. So I wanted to dive right into a term that we hear all the time, operational excellence, right? We hear it everywhere in marketing, et cetera, but why is it so important to organizations as they head into 2021? And tell us how AI ops as a platform can help. >>Yeah. Well, thank you. First off. I wanna, uh, I want to welcome our viewers back and, uh, I'm very excited to, uh, to share, um, uh, more info on this topic. You know, uh, here's what we believe as we work with large organizations, we see all our organizations are poised to get out of the, uh, the pandemic and look for a brood for their own business and helping customers get through this tough time. So fiscal year 2021, we believe is going to be a combination of, uh, you know, resiliency and agility at the, at the same time. So operational excellence is critical because the business has become more digital, right? There are going to be three things that are going to be more sticky. Uh, you know, remote work is going to be more sticky, um, cost savings and efficiency is going to be an imperative for organizations and the continued acceleration of digital transformation of enterprises at scale is going to be in reality. So when you put all these three things together as a, as a team that is, uh, you know, that's working behind the scenes to help the businesses succeed, operational excellence is going to be, make or break for organizations, >>Right with that said, if we kind of strip it down to the key capabilities, what are those key capabilities that companies need to be looking for in an AI ops solution? >>Yeah, you know, so first and foremost, AI ops means many things to many, many folks. So let's take a moment to simply define it. The way we define AI ops is it's a system of intelligence, human augmented system that brings together full visibility across app infra and network elements that brings together disparate data sources and provides actionable intelligence and uniquely offers intelligent automation. Now, the, the analogy many folks draw is the self-driving car. I mean, we are in the world of Teslas, uh, but you know, uh, but self-driving data center is it's too far away, right? Autonomous systems are still far away. However, uh, you know, application of AI ML techniques to help deal with volume velocity, veracity of information, uh, is, is critical. So that's how we look at AI ops and some of the key capabilities that we, uh, that we, uh, that we work with our customers to help them on our own for eight years. >>Right? First one is eyes and ears. What we call full stack observability. If you do not know what is happening in your systems, uh, you know, that that serve up your business services. It's going to be pretty hard to do anything, uh, in terms of responsiveness, right? So from stack observability, the second piece is what we call actionable insights. So when you have disparate data sources, tools, sprawls data coming at you from, uh, you know, uh, from a database systems, it systems customer management systems, ticketing systems. How do you find the needle from the haystack? And how do you respond rapidly from a myriad of problems as CEO of red? The third area is what we call intelligent automation. Well, identifying the problem to act on is important, and then acting on automating that and creating, uh, a recommendation system where, uh, you know, you can be proactive about it is even more important. And finally, all of this focuses on efficiency. What about effectiveness? Effectiveness comes when you create a feedback loop, when what happens in production is related to your support systems and your developers so that they can respond rapidly. So we call that continuous feedback. So these are the four key capabilities that, uh, you know, uh, you should look for in an AI ops system. And that's what we offer as well. >>Russia, there's four key capabilities that businesses need to be looking for. I'm wondering how those help to align business. And it it's, again like operational excellence. It's something that we talk about a lot is the alignment of business. And it a lot more challenging, easier said than done, right. But I want you to explain how can AI ops help with that alignment and align it outputs to business outcomes? >>Yeah. So, you know, one of the things, uh, I'm going to say something that is, uh, that is, uh, that is simple, but, but, but this harder, but alignment is not on systems alignment is with people, right? So when people align, when organizations align, when cultures align, uh, dramatic things can happen. So in the context of AI ops VC, when, when SRE is aligned with the DevOps engineers and information architects and, uh, uh, you know, it operators, uh, you know, they enable organizations to reduce the gap between intent and outcome or output and outcome that said, uh, you know, these personas need mechanisms to help them better align, right. Help them better visualize, see the, you know, what we call single source of truth, right? So there are four key things that I want to call out. When we work with large enterprises, we find that customer journey alignment with the, you know, what we call it systems is critical. >>So how do you understand your business imperatives and your customer journey goals, whether it is car to a purchase or whether it is, uh, you know, bill shock scenarios and Swan alignment on customer journey to your it systems is one area that you can reduce the gap. The second area is how do you create a scenario where your teams can find problems before your customers do right outage scenarios and so on. So that's the second area of alignment. The third area of alignment is how can you measure business impact driven services? Right? There are several services that an organization offers versus an it system. Some services are more critical to the business than others, and these change in a dynamic environment. So how do you, how do you understand that? How do you measure that and how, how do you find the gaps there? So that's the third area of alignment that we, that we help and last but not least there are, there are things like NPS scores and others that, that help us understand alignment, but those are more long-term. But in the, in the context of, uh, you know, operating digitally, uh, you want to use customer experience and business, uh, you know, a single business outcome, uh, as a, as a key alignment factor, and then work with your systems of engagement and systems of interaction, along with your key personas to create that alignment. It's a people process technology challenge. >>So, whereas one of the things that you said there is that it's imperative for the business to find a problem before a customer does, and you talked about outages there, that's always a goal for businesses, right. To prevent those outages, how can AI ops help with that? Yeah, >>So, you know, outages, uh, talk, you know, go to resiliency of a system, right? And they also go to, uh, uh, agility of the same system, you know, if you're a customer and if you're whipping up your mobile app and it takes more than three milliseconds, uh, you know, you're probably losing that customer, right. So outages mean different things, you know, and there's an interesting website called down detector.com that actually tracks all the old pages of publicly available services, whether it's your bank or your, uh, you know, tele telecom service or a mobile service and so on and so forth. In fact, the key question around outages for, from, uh, from, uh, you know, executives are the question of, are you ready? Right? Are you ready to respond to the needs of your customers and your business? Are you ready to rapidly resolve an issue that is impacting customer experience and therefore satisfaction? >>Are you creating a digital trust system where customers can be, you know, um, uh, you know, customers can feel that their information is secure when they transact with you, all of these, getting into the notion of resiliency and outages. Now, you know, one of the things that, uh, that I, I often, uh, you know, work with customers around, you know, would that be find as the radius of impact is important when you deal with outages? What I mean by that is problems occur, right? How do you respond? How quickly do you take two seconds, two minutes, 20 minutes, two hours, 20 hours, right? To resolve the problem that radius of impact is important. That's where, you know, you have to bring a gain people, process technology together to solve that. And the key thing is you need a system of intelligence that can aid your teams, you know, look at the same set of parameters so that you can respond faster. That's the key here. >>We look at digital transformation at scale. Raj, how does AI ops help influence that? >>You know, um, I'm going to take a slightly long-winded way to answer this question. See when it comes to digital transformation at scale, the focus on business purpose and business outcome becomes extremely critical. And then the alignment of that to your digital supply chain, right, are the, are the, are the key factors that differentiate winners in the, in their digital transformation game? Really, what we have seen, uh, with, with winners is they operate very differently. Like for example, uh, you know, Nike matures, its digital business outcomes by shoes per second, right? Uh, Apple by I-phones per minute, Tesla by model threes per month, are you getting this, getting it right? I mean, you want to have a clear business outcome, which is a measure of your business, uh, in effect, I mean, ENC, right? Which, which, uh, um, my daughter use and I use very well. >>Right. Uh, you know, uh, they measure by revenue per hour, right? I mean, so these are key measures. And when you have a key business outcome measure like that, you can everything else, because you know what these measures, uh, you know, uh, for a bank, it may be deposits per month, right now, when you move money from checking account to savings account, or when you do direct deposits, those are, you know, banks need liquidity and so on and so forth. But, you know, the, the key thing is that single business outcome has a Starburst effect inside the it organization that touches a single money moment from checking a call to savings account can touch about 75 disparate systems internally. Right? So those think about it, right? I mean, all, all we're doing is moving money from checking account a savings account. Now that goats into a it production system, there are several applications. >>There is a database, there is, there are infrastructures, there are load balancers that are webs. You know, you know, the web server components, which then touches your, your middleware component, which is a queuing system, right. Which then touches your transactional system. Uh, and, uh, you know, which may be on your main frames, what we call mobile to mainframe scenario, right? And we are not done yet. Then you have a security and regulatory compliance system that you have to touch a fraud prevention system that you have to touch, right? A state department regulation that you may have to meet and on and on and on, right? This is the chat that it operations teams face. And when you have millions of customers transacting, right, suddenly this challenge cannot be managed by human beings alone. So therefore you need a system of intelligence that augments human intelligence and acts as your, you know, your, your eyes and ears in a way to, to point pinpoint where problems are. >>Right. So digital transformation at scale really requires a very well thought out AI ops system, a platform, an open extensible platform that, uh, you know, uh, that is heterogeneous in nature because there's tools, products in organizations. There is a lot of databases in systems. There are millions of, uh, uh, you know, customers and hundreds of partners and vendors, you know, making up that digital supply chain. So, you know, AI ops is at the center of an enabling an organization achieve digital op you know, transformation at scale last but not least. You need continuous feedback loop. Continuous feedback loop is the ability for a production system to inform your dev ops teams, your finance teams, your customer experience teams, your cost modeling teams about what is going on so that they can so that they can reduce the intent, come gap. >>All of this need to come together, what we call BizOps. >>That was a great example of how you talked about the Starburst effect. I actually never thought about it in that way, when you give the banking example, but what you should is the magnitude of systems. The fact that people alone really need help with that, and why intelligent automation and AI ops can be transformative and enable that scale. Raj, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for joining me today. And we'll be right back with our next segment. Welcome back to the AI ops virtual forum. We've heard from our guests about the value of AI ops and why and how organizations are adopting AI ops platforms. But now let's see AI ops inaction and get a practical view of AI ops to deep Dante. The head of AI ops at Broadcom is now going to take you through a quick demo. >>Hello. So they've gotta head off AI ops and automation here. What I'm going to do today is talk through some of the key capabilities and differentiators of Broadcom's CII ops solution in this solution, which can be delivered on cloud or on-prem. We bring a variety of metric alarm log and applauded data from multiple sources, EPM, NetApps, and infrastructure monitoring tools to provide a single point of observability and control. Let me start where our users mostly stock key enterprises like FSI, telcos retailers, et cetera, do not manage infrastructure or applications without having a business context. At the end of the day, they offer business services governed by SLS service level objectives and SLI service level indicators are service analytics, which can scale to a few thousand services, lets our customers create and monitor the services as per their preference. They can create a hierarchy of services based on their business practice. >>For example, here, the sub services are created based on functional subsistence for certain enterprises. It could be based on location. Users can import these services from their favorite CMDB. What's important to note that not all services are born equal. If you are a modern bank, you may want to prioritize tickets coming from digital banking, for example, and this application lets you rank them as per the KPI of your choice. We can source the availability, not merely from the state of the infrastructure, whether they're running or not. But from the SLS that represent the state of the application, when it comes to triaging issues related to the service, it is important to have a complete view of the topology. The typology can show both east-west elements from mobile to mainframe or not South elements in a network flow. This is particularly relevant for a large enterprise who could be running the systems of engagement on the cloud and system of records on mainframe inside the firewall here, you can see that the issue is related to the mainframe kick server. >>You can expand to see the actual alarm, which is sourced from the mainframe operational intelligence. Similarly, clicking on network will give the hub and spoke view of the network devices, the Cisco switches and routers. I can click on the effected router and see all the details Broadcom's solution stores, the ontological model of the typology in the form of a journal graph where one can not only view the current state of the typology, but the past as well, talking of underlying data sources, the solution uses best of the pre data stores for structured and unstructured data. We have not only leveraged the power of open source, but have actively contributed back to the community. One of the key innovations is evident in our dashboarding framework because we have enhanced the open source Grafana technology to support these diverse data sources here. You can see a single dashboard representing applications to infrastructure, to mainframe again, sourcing a variety of data from these sources. >>When we talk to customers, one of the biggest challenges that they face today is related to alarms because of a proliferation of tools. They are currently drowning in an ocean of hundreds and thousands of alarms. This increases the Elmont support cost to tens of dollars per ticket, and also affects LTO efficiency leading to an average of five to six hours of meantime to resolution here is where we have the state of the art innovation utilizing the power of machine learning and ontology to arrive at the root cause we not only clusterize alarms based on text, but employ the technique of 41st. We look at the topology then at the time window duplicate text based on NLP. And lastly learn from continuous training of the model to deduce what we call situations. This is an example of a situation. As you can see, we provide a time-based evidence of how things unfolded and arrive at a root cause. >>Lastly, the solution provides a three 60 degree closed loop remediation either through a ticketing system or by direct invocation of automation actions instead of firing hard-coded automation runbooks for certain conditions, the tool leverage is machine learning to rank automation actions based on past heuristics. That's why we call it intelligent automation to summarize AI ops from Broadcom helps you achieve operational excellence through full stack observability, coupled with AIML that applies across modern hybrid cloud environments, as well as legacy ones uniquely. It ties these insights with intelligent automation to improve customer experience. Thank you for watching from around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to our final segment today. So we've discussed today. The value that AI ops will bring to organizations in 2021, we'll discuss that through three different perspectives. And so now we want to bring those perspectives together and see if we can get a consensus on where AI ops needs to go for folks to be successful with it in the future. So bringing back some folks Richland is back with us. Senior analysts, serving infrastructure and operations professionals at Forrester smartness here is also back in global product management at Verizon and Srinivasan, Reggie Gopaul head of product and strategy at Broadcom guys. Great to have you back. So let's jump in and rich, we're going to, we're going to start with you, but we are going to get all three of you, a chance to answer the questions. So we've talked about why organizations should adopt AI ops, but what happens if they choose not to what challenges would they face? Basically what's the cost of organizations doing nothing >>Good question, because I think in operations for a number of years, we've kind of stand stood, Pat, where we are, where we're afraid change things sometimes, or we just don't think about a tooling as often. The last thing to change because we're spending so much time doing project work and modernization and fighting fires on a daily basis. >>Problem is going to get worse. If we do nothing, >>You know, we're building new architectures like containers and microservices, which means more things to mind and keep running. Um, we're building highly distributed systems. We're moving more and more into this hybrid world, a multi-cloud world, uh, it's become over-complicate and I'll give a short anecdote. I think, eliminate this. Um, when I go to conferences and give speeches, it's all infrastructure operations people. And I say, you know, how many people have three X, five X, you know, uh, things to monitor them. They had, you know, three years ago, two years ago, and everyone's saying how many people have hired more staff in that time period, zero hands go up. That's the gap we have to fill. And we have to fill that through better automation, more intelligent systems. It's the only way we're going to be able to fill back out. >>What's your perspective, uh, if organizations choose not to adopt AI ops. Yeah. So I'll do that. Yeah. So I think it's, I would just relate it to a couple of things that probably everybody >>Tired off lately and everybody can relate to. And this would resonate that we have 5g, which is all set to transform the world. As we know it, I don't have a lot of communication with these smart cities, smart communities, IOT, which is going to make us pivotal to the success of businesses. And as you've seen with this call with, you know, transformation of the world, that there's a, there's a much bigger cost consciousness out there. People are trying to become much more, forward-looking much more sustainable. And I think at the heart of all of this, that the necessity that you have intelligent systems, which are bastardizing more than enough information that previously could've been overlooked because if you don't measure engagement, not going right. People not being on the same page of this using two examples or hundreds of things, you know, that play a part in things, but not coming together in the best possible way. So I think it has an absolute necessity to drive those cost efficiencies rather than, you know, left right and center laying off people who are like 10 Mattel to your business and have a great tribal knowledge of your business. So to speak, you can drive these efficiencies through automating a lot of those tasks that previously were being very manually intensive or resource intensive. And you could allocate those resources towards doing much better things, which let's be very honest going into 20, 21 after what we've seen with 2020, it's going to be mandate treat. >>And so Raj, I saw you shaking your head there when he was mom was sharing his thoughts. What are your thoughts about that sounds like you agree. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, uh, to put things in perspective, right? I mean we're firmly in the digital economy, right? Digital economy, according to the Bureau of economic analysis is 9% of the U S GDP. Just, you know, think about it in, in, in, in, in the context of the GDP, right? It's only ranked lower, slightly lower than manufacturing, which is at 11.3% GDP and slightly about finance and insurance, which is about seven and a half percent GDP. So the digital economy is firmly in our lives, right. And as Huisman was talking about it, you know, software eats the world and digital, operational excellence is critical for customers, uh, to, uh, you know, to, uh, to drive profitability and growth, uh, in the digital economy. >>It's almost, you know, the key is digital at scale. So when, uh, when rich talks about some of the challenges and when Huseman highlights 5g as an example, those are the things that, that, that come to mind. So to me, what is the cost or perils of doing nothing? You know, uh, it's not an option. I think, you know, more often than not, uh, you know, C-level execs are asking head of it and they are key influencers, a single question, are you ready? Are you ready in the context of addressing spikes in networks because of the pandemic scenario, are you ready in the context of automating away toil? Are you ready to respond rapidly to the needs of the digital business? I think AI ops is critical. >>That's a great point. Roger, where does stick with you? So we got kind of consensus there, as you said, wrapping it up. This is basically a, not an option. This is a must to go forward for organizations to be successful. So let's talk about some quick wins, or as you talked about, you know, organizations and sea levels asking, are you ready? What are some quick wins that that organizations can achieve when they're adopting AI? >>You know, um, immediate value. I think I would start with a question. How often do your customers find problems in your digital experience before you do think about that? Right. You know, if you, if you, you know, there's an interesting web, uh, website, um, uh, you know, down detector.com, right? I think, uh, in, in Europe there is an equal amount of that as well. It ha you know, people post their digital services that are down, whether it's a bank that, uh, you know, customers are trying to move money from checking account, the savings account and the digital services are down and so on and so forth. So some and many times customers tend to find problems before it operations teams do. So a quick win is to be proactive and immediate value is visibility. If you do not know what is happening in your complex systems that make up your digital supply chain, it's going to be hard to be responsive. So I would start there >>Visibility this same question over to you from Verizon's perspective, quick wins. >>Yeah. So I think first of all, there's a need to ingest this multi-care spectrum data, which I don't think is humanly possible. You don't have people having expertise, you know, all the seven layers of the OSI model and then across network and security and at the application level. So I think you need systems which are now able to get that data. It shouldn't just be wasted reports that you're paying for on a monthly basis. It's about time that you started making the most of those in the form of identifying what are the efficiencies within your ecosystem. First of all, what are the things, you know, which could be better utilized subsequently you have the >>Opportunity to reduce the noise of a trouble tickets handling. It sounds pretty trivial, but >>An average you can imagine every trouble tickets has the cost in dollars, right? >>So, and there's so many tickets and there's art >>That get created on a network and across an end user application value, >>We're talking thousands, you know, across and end user >>Application value chain could be million in >>A year. So, and so many of those are not really, >>He, you know, a cause of concern because the problem is something. >>So I think that whole triage is an immediate cost saving and the bigger your network, the bigger >>There's a cost of things, whether you're a provider, whether you're, you know, the end customer at the end of the day, not having to deal with problems, which nobody can resolve, which are not meant to be dealt with. There's so many of those situations, right, where service has just been adopted, >>Which is just coordinate quality, et cetera, et cetera. So many reasons. So those are the, >>So there's some of the immediate cost saving them. They are really, really significant. >>Secondly, I would say Raj mentioned something about, you know, the user, >>Your application value chain, and an understanding of that, especially with this hybrid cloud environment, >>Et cetera, et cetera, right? The time it takes to identify a problem in an end user application value chain across the seven layers that I mentioned with the OSI reference model across network and security and the application environment. It's something that >>In its own self has massive cost to business, >>Right? That could be >>No sale transactions that could be obstructed because of this. There could be, and I'm going to use a really interesting example. >>We talk about IOT. The integrity of the IOT machine is exciting. >>Family is pivotal in this new world that we're stepping into. >>You could be running commands, >>Super efficient. He has, everything is being told to the machine really fast with sending yeah. >>Everything there. What if it's hacked? And if that's okay, >>Robotic arm starts to involve the things you don't want it to do. >>So there's so much of that. That becomes a part of this naturally. And I believe, yes, this is not just like from a cost >>standpoint, but anything going wrong with that code base, et cetera, et cetera. These are massive costs to the business in the form of the revenue. They have lost the perception in the market as a result, the fed, >>You know, all that stuff. So >>These are a couple of very immediate problems, but then you also have the whole player virtualized resources where you can automate the allocation, you know, the quantification of an orchestration of those virtualized resources, rather than a person having to, you know, see something and then say, Oh yeah, I need to increase capacity over here, because then it's going to have this particular application. You have systems doing this stuff and to, you know, Roger's point your customer should not be identifying your problems before you, because this digital is where it's all about perception. >>Absolutely. We definitely don't want the customers finding it before. So rich, let's wrap this particular question up with you from that senior analyst perspective, how can companies use make big impact quickly with AI ops? Yeah, >>Yeah, I think, you know, and it was been really summed up some really great use cases there. I think with the, uh, you know, one of the biggest struggles we've always had in operations is isn't, you know, the mean time to resolve. We're pretty good at resolving the things. We just have to find the thing we have to resolve. That's always been the problem and using these advanced analytics and machine learning algorithms now across all machine and application data, our tendency is humans is to look at the console and say, what's flashing red. That must be what we have to fix, but it could be something that's yellow, somewhere else, six services away. And we have made things so complicated. And I think this is what it was when I was saying that we can't get there anymore on our own. We need help to get there in all of this stuff that the outline. >>So, so well builds up to a higher level thing of what is the customer experience about what is the customer journey? And we've struggled for years in the digital world and measuring that a day-to-day thing. We know an online retail. If you're having a bad experience at one retailer, you just want your thing. You're going to go to another retailer, brand loyalty. Isn't one of like it, wasn't a brick and mortal world where you had a department store near you. So you were loyal to that because it was in your neighborhood, um, online that doesn't exist anymore. So we need to be able to understand the customer from that first moment, they touch a digital service all the way from their, their journey through that digital service, the lowest layer, whether it be a database or the network, what have you, and then back to them again, and we're not understanding, is that a good experience? >>We gave them. How does that compare to last week's experience? What should we be doing to improve that next week? Uh, and I think companies are starting and then the pandemic certainly, you know, push this timeline. If you listened to the, the, the CEO of Microsoft, he's like, you know, 10 years of digital transformation written down. And the first several months of this, um, in banks and in financial institutions, I talked to insurance companies, aren't slowing down. They're trying to speed up. In fact, what they've discovered is that they're, you know, obviously when we were on lockdown or what have you, they use of digital servers is spiked very high. What they've learned is they're never going to go back down. They're never going to return to pretend endemic levels. So now they're stuck with this new reality. Well, how do we service those customers and how do we make sure we keep them loyal to our brand? >>Uh, so, you know, they're looking for modernization opportunities. A lot of that that's things have been exposed. And I think Raj touched upon this very early in the conversation is visibility gaps. Now that we're on the outside, looking in at the data center, we know we architect things in a very way. Uh, we better ways of making these correlations across the Sparrow technologies to understand where the problems lies. We can give better services to our customers. And I think that's really what we're going to see a lot of the innovation and the people really clamoring for these new ways of doing things that starting, you know, now, I mean, I've seen it in customers, but I think really the push through the end of this year to next year when, you know, economy and things like that straightened out a little bit more, I think it really, people are gonna take a hard look of where they are and is, you know, AI ops the way forward for them. And I think they'll find it. The answer is yes, for sure. >>So we've, we've come to a consensus that, of what the parallels are of organizations, basically the cost of doing nothing. You guys have given some great advice on where some of those quick wins are. Let's talk about something Raj touched on earlier is organizations, are they really ready for truly automated AI? Raj, I want to start with you readiness factor. What are your thoughts? >>Uh, you know, uh, I think so, you know, we place our, her lives on automated systems all the time, right? In our, in our day-to-day lives, in the, in the digital world. I think, uh, you know, our, uh, at least the customers that I talk to our customers are, uh, are, uh, you know, uh, have a sophisticated systems. Like for example, advanced automation is a reality. If you look at social media, AI and ML and automation are used to automate away, uh, misinformation, right? If you look at financial institutions, AI and ML are used to automate away a fraud, right? So I want to ask our customers why can't we automate await oil in it, operation systems, right? And that's where our customers are. Then the, you know, uh, I'm a glass half full, uh, cleanup person, right? Uh, this pandemic has been harder on many of our customers, but I think what we have learned from our customers is they've Rose to the occasion. >>They've used digital as a key needs, right? At scale. That's what we see with, you know, when, when Huseman and his team talk about, uh, you know, network operational intelligence, right. That's what it means to us. So I think they are ready, the intersection of customer experience it and OT, operational technology is ripe for automation. Uh, and, uh, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna sort of give a shout out to three key personas in this mix. It's about people, right? One is the SRE persona, you know, site, reliability engineer. The other is the information security persona. And the third one is the it operator automation engineer persona. These folks in organizations are building a system of intelligence that can respond rapidly to the needs of their digital business. We at Broadcom, we are in the business of helping them construct a system of intelligence that will create a human augmented solution for them. Right. So when I see, when I interact with large enterprise customers, I think they, they, you know, they, they want to achieve what I would call advanced automation and AI ML solutions. And that's squarely, very I ops is, you know, is going as it, you know, when I talk to rich and what, everything that rich says, you know, that's where it's going and that's what we want to help our customers to. So, which about your perspective of organizations being ready for truly automated AI? >>I think, you know, the conversation has shifted a lot in the last, in, in pre pandemic. Uh, I'd say at the end of last year, we're, you know, two years ago, people I'd go to conferences and people come up and ask me like, this is all smoke and mirrors, right? These systems can't do this because it is such a leap forward for them, for where they are today. Right. We we've sort of, you know, in software and other systems, we iterate and we move forward slowly. So it's not a big shock. And this is for a lot of organizations that big, big leap forward where they're, they're running their operations teams today. Um, but now they've come around and say, you know what? We want to do this. We want all the automations. We want my staff not doing the low complexity, repetitive tasks over and over again. >>Um, you know, and we have a lot of those kinds of legacy systems. We're not going to rebuild. Um, but they need certain care and feeding. So why are we having operations? People do those tasks? Why aren't we automating those out? I think the other piece is, and I'll, I'll, I'll send this out to any of the operations teams that are thinking about going down this path is that you have to understand that the operations models that we're operating under in, in INO and have been for the last 25 years are super outdated and they're fundamentally broken for the digital age. We have to start thinking about different ways of doing things and how do we do that? Well, it's, it's people, organization, people are going to work together differently in an AI ops world, um, for the better. Um, but you know, there's going to be the, the age of the 40 person bridge call thing. >>Troubleshooting is going away. It's going to be three, four, five focused engineers that need to be there for that particular incident. Um, a lot of process mailer process we have in our level, one level, two engineering. What have you running of tickets, gathering of artifacts, uh, during an incident is going to be automated. That's a good thing. We should be doing those, those things by hand anymore. So I'd say that the, to people's like start thinking about what this means to your organization. Start thinking about the great things we can do by automating things away from people, having to do them over and over again. And what that means for them, getting them matched to what they want to be doing is high level engineering tasks. They want to be doing monitorization, working with new tools and technologies. Um, these are all good things that help the organization perform better as a whole great advice and great kind of some of the thoughts that you shared rich for what the audience needs to be on the lookout. For one, I want to go over to you, give me your thoughts on what the audience that should be on the lookout for, or put on your agendas in the next 12 months. >>So there's like a couple of ways to answer that question. One thing would be in the form of, you know, what are some of the things they have to be concerned about in terms of implementing this solution or harnessing its power. The other one could be, you know, what are the perhaps advantages they should look to see? So if I was to talk about the first one, let's say that, what are some of the things I have to watch out for like possible pitfalls that everybody has data, right? So yeah, there's one strategy we say, okay, you've got the data, let's see what we can do with them. But then there's the exact opposite side, which has to be considered when you're doing that analysis. What are the use cases that you're looking to drive? Right. But then use cases you have to understand, are you taking a reactive use case approach? >>Are you taking active use cases, right? Or, yeah, that's a very, very important concentration. Then you have to be very cognizant of where does this data that you have, where does it reside? What are the systems and where does it need to go to in order for this AI function to happen and subsequently if there needs to be any backward communication with all of that data in a process manner. So I think these are some of the very critical points because you can have an AI solution, which is sitting in a customer data center. It could be in a managed services provider data center, like, right, right. It could be in a cloud data center, like an AWS or something, or you could have hybrid views, et cetera, all of that stuff. So you have to be very mindful of where you're going to get the data from is going to go to what are the use cases you're trying to get out to do a bit of backward forward. >>Okay, we've got this data thing and I think it's a journey. Nobody can come in and say, Hey, you've built this fantastic thing. It's like Terminator two. I think it's a journey where we built starting with the network. My personal focus always comes down to the network and with 5g so much, so much more right with 5g, you're talking low latency communication. That's like the true power of 5g, right? It's low latency, it's ultra high bandwidth, but what's the point of that low latency. If then subsequently the actions that need to be taken to prevent any problems in application, IOT applications, remote surgeries, uh, self driving vehicles, et cetera, et cetera. What if that's where people are sitting and sipping their coffees and trying to take action that needs to be in low latency as well. Right? So these are, I think some of the fundamental things that you have to know your data, your use cases, that location, where it needs to be exchanged, what are the parameters around that for extending that data? >>And I think from that point at one word, it's all about realizing, you know, sense of business outcomes. Unless AI comes in as a digital labor that shows you, I have, I have reduced your this amount of time and that's a result of big problems or identified problems for anything. Or I have saved you this much resource in a month, in a year or whatever timeline that people want to see it. So I think those are some of the initial starting points, and then it all starts coming together. But the key is it's not one system that can do everything. You have to have a way where, you know, you can share data once you've caught all of that data into one system. Maybe you can send it to another system at make more, take more advantage, right? That system might be an AI and IOT system, which is just looking at all of your street and make it sure that Hey parents. So it's still off just to be more carbon neutral and all that great stuff, et cetera, et cetera, >>Stuff for the audience to can cigarette rush, take us time from here. What are some of the takeaways that you think the audience really needs to be laser focused on as we move forward into the next year? You know, one thing that, uh, I think a key takeaway is, um, uh, you know, as we embark on 2021, closing the gap between intent and outcome and outputs and outcome will become critical, is critical. Uh, you know, especially for, uh, you know, uh, digital transformation at scale for organizations context in the, you know, for customer experience becomes even more critical as who Swan Huseman was talking, uh, you know, being network network aware network availability is, is a necessary condition, but not sufficient condition anymore. Right? The what, what, what customers have to go towards is going from network availability to network agility with high security, uh, what we call app aware networks, right? How do you differentiate between a trade, a million dollar trade that's happening between, uh, you know, London and New York, uh, uh, versus a YouTube video training that an employee is going through? Worse is a YouTube video that millions of customers are, are >>Watching, right? Three different context, three different customer scenarios, right? That is going to be critical. And last but not least feedback loop, uh, you know, responsiveness is all about feedback loop. You cannot predict everything, but you can respond to things faster. I think these are sort of the three, three things that, uh, that, uh, you know, customers aren't going to have to have to really think about. And that's also where I believe AI ops, by the way, AI ops and I I'm. Yeah. You know, one of the points that was smart and shout out to what he was saying was heterogeneity is key, right? There is no homogeneous tool in the world that can solve problems. So you want an open extensible system of intelligence that, that can harness data from disparate data sources provide that visualization, the actionable insight and the human augmented recommendation systems that are so needed for, uh, you know, it operators to be successful. I think that's where it's going. >>Amazing. You guys just provided so much content context recommendations for the audience. I think we accomplished our goal on this. I'll call it power panel of not only getting to a consensus of what, where AI ops needs to go in the future, but great recommendations for what businesses in any industry need to be on the lookout for rich Huisman Raj, thank you for joining me today. We want to thank you for watching. This was such a rich session. You probably want to watch it again. Thanks for your time. Thanks so much for attending and participating in the AI OBS virtual forum. We really appreciate your time and we hope you really clearly understand the value that AI ops platforms can deliver to many types of organizations. I'm Lisa Martin, and I want to thank our speakers today for joining. We have rich lane from Forrester who's fund here from Verizon and Raj from Broadcom. Thanks everyone. Stay safe..

>>the >>globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS >>reinvent 2020 >>sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Everyone welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host. Got a great segment here with two analyst day Volonte and Zia's Carvell who's head principles of zk research dot com. Guys. Great to see you A W s Kino. Thanks for >>coming on. Let's be back in the cube. >>Welcome back. Great to see you guys. Wanna get your thoughts? Um, it's mainly you because we talked with the enterprise a lot. You are leading analyst. You cover a broad range from networking all the way up to the C suite for enterprise buyers and and technology trends. Um, Andy Jassy laid down, in my opinion, what was directionally his next 20 mile stare. The next conquest for Amazon. And that is global. I t spend they locked in the infrastructures of service pass kicking ass. There. Check check. Hello, Enterprise. Different ballgame. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, they have so much in different areas, obviously. You know, they have dominated cloud instances right there. Mawr compute storage memory. You know insists that anybody but you can see him, um, spreading their wings now, right? I think one of the more interesting announcements was actually what they're doing with Amazon connect. That's their contact center platform. And this is something that I think, Even last year, a lot of people weren't really even sure if they'd be in a long primary in the pocket. People about this market, they were asking, If you really think Amazon's in this, there's something they're experimenting. But we're here to stay. And I think one of the interesting things that they bring to market is, you know, almost unprecedented scale with their cloud platform as well as all the machine learning algorithms. And I think if if you believe that machine learning artificial intelligence is changing, I t. Forever and that's everything from the infrastructure to the network through the applications, then they have an inherent advantage because they have all those machine learning albums built into this stuff that they dio and so they can constantly look at these different markets and disruptive, disruptive, disrupt and take more and more sharing that and that's what they've done. E think that's you know, the context and announcements were great example that they're not doing the telephony things, and, you know, they're kind of bare table stakes. They do that pretty well, but they've just unloaded a whole bunch of ai based features that >>Dave, what's your take on this context center? Because it's not just call centers. I mean, there was a whole industry around call center, unified communications. That whole world. This is about the contact. It's about the person. This is not just a nuanced thing like telephony or, you know, PBX is in the old days. Remember those days? Things is not about the call. It's about the contact. This is what Jazzy saying. >>I think that way had Diana or on early. And I said, I like the fact that their AWS specifically is going after these solutions because several years ago it was just sort of. Here's a bunch of tools. Go figure it out. I think the contact center is I mean, everybody can relate Thio the pains of going through getting rerouted, having to restate all your credentials, not knowing who you are. And so between machine learning, Alexa, Natural language processing, better work flows. I mean there's this huge opportunity toe reinvent the whole call center contact center. So, uh, yeah, I think you called it John. It's a no brainer for a W s toe Really disrupt that >>business. Well, it also puts him in a position. You know, news is breaking on the day of and yet his keynote here at reinvent that, uh, you got Salesforce spying slack for 27 close toe, $28 billion. That's a 55% premium over when they announced it. And that's like a 30 x or 50 x on on revenue. Massive number to confess the message board software. I mean, so So. So. If Amazon can come in and get the context center model, which is not just voice, it's chat, it's machine learning. It's bots. And the innovation to create a step function kind of brings it back into the that integration of user network compute. You know, I just think that it feels very edgy in the sense of edge computing, because if I'm a person, I'm mobile. If I'm a person at work or at home, so there's a whole redefinition Zs, what's your take on this edge? Play from Amazon in context toe the enterprise software landscape. That seems to be, you know, focus on buying companies like Salesforce. >>Well, I think edges really the next big foray for computing. If one of the things and you ask we talked about this, you know, was that the compute, the unit of Compute, has gotten smaller and smaller, Right? We went from data centers to servers to virtual machines, the virtual machines and clouds. Now we're talking about containers and containers on edges, and this requires, um if you if you believe in the world of distributed computing where we're gonna have mawr containers running in MAWR, places on MAWR edges, right. The value proposition where companies is now they can move their data closer to the customer. They could move data closer to the user. And so, if I'm a retailer and I'm trying to understand what a customer is doing, I could do that in store. If I'm Tesla and I'm trying to understand what the drivers doing, I could do that in car, right? If I'm a cellular provider, I could do it by cellular edge. So the edge, I think, is where a lot of the innovation is going to be at Amazon has the luxury of this massive global network. You know, they just announced the number another a number of other local nodes, including Boston and a few other places. So they've got the footprint in place. And this this is what makes Amazon's are difficult to compete with, right? They built this massive network and this all these, no doubt for their e commerce business. And now they're leveraging that deliver I t services. You can't just go build this from the ground up the variety, right? You have to be able to monetize it another way. And they've been doing that with the commerce for a long time. And so it makes them. It makes it very, very difficult for them to capture Google could with Daniel forget about the item. Oh, yeah, so good. Microsoft. Possibly. But they I think that the more distributed compute becomes the more favors Amazon, >>I would add to that if I could, John, I mean, look good. Look at the prevailing way in which many of the infrastructure the old guard is Andy. Jesse calls them. Companies have pursued the edge they've essentially taking, taking x 86 boxes and, you know, maybe made him rugged and throwing them over the fence to the edge. And that really is not gonna play the edges. Now there's not one edge. I mean, there's a very highly specific use cases and factories and windmills. And maybe maybe it's small retail organizations, and whatever it is that those are gonna be really unique situations. And I think the idea of putting a programmable infrastructure at the edge is gonna win. I also think that the edge architecture is gonna be different. It's going to require much more efficient processing to do a I Influencing a lot of the data is gonna be, uh, stay at the edge. A lot of it's not gonna be persisted. Some of it's gonna come back to the cloud. But I think most of it is actually gonna gonna either not be persisted or stay at the edge and be affected in real time. When you think of autonomous vehicles so totally different programming model, >>well, I think that's the point of what I was saying earlier Zeus was talking about Is that it's It's the edges is just different. I mean, you got purpose built stuff. I mean, they were talking by the way they have snowball. So they have, ah, hard edge device. And they got out outpost now in multiple flavors and sizes. But they also were talking about computer vision and machine learning. We're going together for that. The panoramic appliance. I think it was where there's all these different cases to your point, Dave, where it's just different. At the edge, you have the zones for five G. I mean, if you go to a five g tower, that's essentially an edge. Just there's equipment up to this. Radios is transceivers and other back haul equipment. So when you look at the totality of what it is, the diversity, I think that's why this whole idea of Lambda and Containers is interesting. Toe Zia's. When you were saying about the compute sizes being small, because if you could put compute at the edge on small pieces to match the form factor that becomes interesting. I think that's what this Lambda container announcement I found interesting because I see that playing directly into that your reaction to >>that. It actually, um, makes it. If not done correctly, it could make I t much more complex because, um, containers air interesting because they're not like virtual machines. First live in perpetuity. Containers you They're very ephemeral, right? You spin them up to 30 seconds, you spin them up for a couple of minutes that you deprecate them. So at any given point in time, you could have thousands of containers, a handful of containers, millions of containers, Right? But it necessitates a common management. Uh huh. Underlay that could be used to visualize where these containers are, what's running on them. And that's what AWS provides. You know, all the stuff they're doing Lambda and Eks and things like that that lends itself to that. So a customer can then go and almost create a container architecture that spans all their cloud's edges, even on Prem. Now, uh, when Amazon has but still be able to manage it and simplify it, I think somebody's trying to do it themselves. They're gonna find that the complexity almost becomes untenable. Unless you have a Nike organization the size of Amazon companies don't. So we're >>gonna here, we're gonna hear from Deepak singing in a few sessions. He did the eks anywhere. That's essentially kubernetes service on the data center. But look at what they did with eks anywhere and then CCS, which has a common control plane to your point, that's compelling. And so, you know, if you're a developer or you're an enterprise, you might not have If you want to go with this. I t world. We talked about earlier zeros before you came on on our last segment. Most I t is not that built out in terms of capabilities. So learning new stuff is hard, so operating Amazon might be foreign to most I t shops. This is a challenge. Did you agree with that? Or or how do you see that? >>Um, well, a lot of Amazon used, obviously just the interviews and numbers of fucked that right. Um, but I think the concept of in a world where you have that common operating layer that spans it's no longer geographically limited to a data center or to a server. You know, it's it's now distributed across your entire multi cloud or distributed cloud environment. And so one of the important things right people remember is the world is becoming more dynamic and or distributed, and your I t strategy has to follow that. If you're doing things that are counted that you're not only standing still, you're actually going backwards. And so what Amazon is doing is they're allowing companies to be is dynamic distributors. They need to be to be able to maintain that that common operating layer that actually makes it management, because without it, you just you wind up in a situation. Like I said, that's incredible. A lot of people facing that today. And that's why that's why there's this big divergence, right? This five native cos they're going fast and legacy companies that can. >>Guys, I want to spend the next 10 minutes we have getting into more of the business side from this keynote because because I know your research on digital transmission first. I know you know the networking side up and down the stack and all that good stuff, but you've been doing a lot of research around the digital transformation with the cloud. Dave, you just put out a great great breaking and else think your 55th, um, episode on digital transformation with the cloud. It's very clear that Jackie is basically preaching, saying, Hey, Clay Christensen is former professor who passed away. He brought up this whole innovator's dilemma kind of theme and saying, Hey, if you don't get the reality that you're in, you better wake up and smell the coffee. It's a wake up call. That's what he's basically saying That's my take away. This is really this business management lesson. Leadership thinking is super important, and I know we've We've talked about people process, technology. Uh, let's Covad eyes this real quick. Bottom line. What is the playbook? Do you agree with jazz? His point of view here? Um, he's pretty being hardcore. He's like, literally saying adapter die in his own way. What, you guys thoughts on this? This is a true forcing function. This cove, In reality, >>I mean I mean, if you talk about the business transformation, digital transformation, business transformation, you know, what does that mean? I, like, said earlier that the last 10 years about I t transformation, I think the next 10 is gonna be about business transformation, organizational industry transformation, and I think what that means is the entire operational stack is gonna get digitized. So your sales you're marketing your your customer support your logistics. You know you're gonna have one interface to the customer as opposed toe, you know, fragmented stovepipe siloed. You know, data sets all over the place, and that is a major change. And I think that's ultimately what a W. S is trying to affect with its model and has obviously big challenges in doing so. But But that, to me, is what digital transformation is ultimately all about. And I think you're going to see it unfold very rapidly over the next several >>years. What's your reaction? What's your view on on the on Jackie? >>And he talked about his eight steps toe reinvention. Um and e think what digital transformation to me is the willingness to re invent disruptive own business even in the face that it might look horrible for your business, right? But understanding he is there something that I think is true. And a lot of, um, business leaders don't fully by this that if something is good for your customer, they're going to do it, and you can either make it happen, or you gonna watch it happen and then have the market taken away from me because there's a lot of cases you look at how slow you know, A lot of the banks, you know, operated until you know, the a lot of these, uh, cloud native, uh, money exchange systems came around the cape. Alan Ben more and things like that, right? Even retailers Amazon completely disrupted that model. You could say that Amazon killed, you know, Toys R us, but 20 rescue Toys R Us E. And I think there's got to be this hard willingness to look at your business model and be willing to disrupt yourself. And what Kobe did, John, I think, is a taught us a lesson that you have to be prepared for anything because nobody saw this coming. And sure you can. And a lot of companies thrived out of this, and a lot of one's gone away, but that the ability to be agile has never been more important. But you're only is Angela's. Ike lets you be, and that's what that's what. The W. Is going to sell us the ability to do anything you want with your business. But the staff, you have to have the business because they're willing to do that. >>You know, that's a great point. That's so smart. It's crime that's worth calling out. And we were talking before we came on live about our business with the Cube. There's no virtual, there's no floor anymore. So we had to go virtual if we weren't in the cloud. If we weren't doing R and D and tinkering with some software and having our studio, we'd be out of business. Dave. Everyone knows it. Now Get the Cube virtual. We have some software were position, and this kind of speaks directly to what Andy Jassy said. He said. Quote. If you're not in the process of figuring out as a company, how you're going to reinvent your customer experience in your product and reinvent who you are, you are starting to unwind. You may not realize it, but you are. What he's saying is you better wake up and smell the coffee and I want to get your guys reacted. You, particularly you around your experience and research. I've noticed that some customers that had cloud going on did well with co vid and said ones that didn't are still struggling not to catch up. So you're kind of intense. You got some companies that were that were on the wave, Maybe kind of figuring it out, that we're in good position and some that were flat footed and are desperate. Um, seems to be a trend. Do you agree with that? And what's your view on this idea of being ready? What does that even mean to be? Have readiness or >>take, you don't get the data points that Andy threw up there, right? That 50% of the companies that were the global fortune $500.2000 or are no longer here, Right? That Zatz Pretty shocking statistic. And that does come, uh, you know, from the willingness to disrupt your business. And if you got you're right. The companies that had a good, solid class raging in place, we're able to adapt their business very quickly. You could you look at retailers. Some had a very strong online presence. They had online customer service set up those companies didn't find other ones, were really forced to try and figure out how to let people in the store had a mimic. You know, the in store experience, you know, through from, uh, you know, support interface or whatever. Those are the ones that really struggling. So you're right. I think companies that were on the offensive plug to Dover companies that were fully in the cloud really accelerated their business and ones that didn't buy into it. I think they're struggling to survive in a lot of They're gone. >>Yeah, and all that. John, When Jesus was talking about his view of digital transformation, I was just writing down some of the examples to your point. The folks that were sort of had were cloud ready, covert ready, if you will. And those that weren't But think about think about automobiles. You know, there's testily even a manufacturer of automobiles or they software company. Personal health has completely changed over the last nine months with remote. You know, uh, telehealth automated manufacturing. You think about digital cash, e commerce and retail is completely, you know, accelerated. Obviously toe online. Think about kids in college and kids in high school and remote learning farming. You know, we've done a great job in terms of mono crops and actually creating a lot of food. But now I think the next 10 years is gonna be how do we get more nutritious food to people and so virtually every industry is ripe for disruption, and the cloud is the underpinning of that disruption. >>Alright, guys, got a few more minutes left. I want to get your thoughts quickly on the keynote. What it means for the customers that we're watching again. This is not a sales and marketing conference as they talk about. But if you're sitting in the audience, you guys, we're watching and we're virtual um Did it hit home with you? If you're a customer, what did he what? Give us Give the grades. Where do you Where do you hit a home run? Where he missed. Did he leave anything out? What's your take Zia's? We'll start with you. >>Um, I thought it was actually really good Keynote. I thought you did a good job of making the case for AWS. They talked about the open. They have more instances than anybody. So you could do almost any kind of compute in their cloud. I think one of the important lessons variety to is the importance. You can't just do everything. The software right? Hardware Still important silicon still important that, and to meet the needs of very special he needs from things like machine learning and AI. Amazon's actually spending their own silicon very much like Athens doing with their computers. And so if you are going to be a customer service focused company, you need to think of the I T. Stack and everything from the silicon, the hardware through the software, and build that integrated experience to Amazon's giving a tools to do that Now E. Do I would like to see Amazon be a little more, um, a supposed the cloud competitive friendly. The one thing I hear from customers all the time is they love the Amazon tools. They love the optimization capabilities, but you know, if they are adopting some kind of multi cloud strategy, the Amazon tools don't work in Azure and the capital don't work in Amazon. The same with Google, and it would be well within the best interests of those three companies. They find a way to get together and allow their common framework to work across clouds. Amazon's already got a lead that they could do that, and I don't think it's gonna be, but that that is something I think that's still missing from this world is they make it very difficult for customers to move the multi cloud. >>Well, some would say some people are saying, saying that the number one in the cloud I mean, got cloud wars Bob Evans over there saying Microsoft is dominating number one position over everybody else, multiple quarters in a row Now he's looking at revenue and granted. You got a lot of propping up there you got. You know, Windows server and sequel. You got a bunch of professional services, But clearly the I as in past side of the market, Microsoft is, like, way behind um So, yeah, they've got the numbers little legacy in their Microsoft should, and they got a little base. If I'm Amazon, I'm not. I'm worried about Microsoft more than anybody. I think you know, I looking at the Civil War between the Seattle forces. I mean, this is really Microsoft's gotta greatest all base, and they could flip that license deals and >>the cloud is good enough. I mean, it's myself doing very, very well with its classic Microsoft. You know >>they your point. Microsoft is the king of good enough, right? They put out features. They market heavily to the I t pro on. They put out licensing packages, so you're almost foolish to not at least fry their products. And then they do roll it out. So it's good enough and then you live with it for a while. But ultimately, whenever people use Microsoft, they do have an alternative under in there for a very special case. But e don't wanna >>the king of good enough. That's a great line. I love that. I'm gonna use that. But this Babel fish thing for Aurora that is a huge dagger. Potentially, it's an escape valve for customers. They wanna leave Microsoft. But clearly, if Microsoft you're gonna get penalized by running your license on Amazon. >>If our CEO our i t c t, I'd say, Okay, I definitely want to do business with with Amazon. That's what I heard today from Jassy, and I would want to hedge my bets either with Microsoft, especially if I'm a Microsoft shop or with Google's from analytics heavy unquestionably. I'd want to hedge my bets and have some kind of 70 30 80 20 mix. >>Look, if you're Andy Jassy and he's told me my interview, do it directly. I asked this question. He was very forthright. He doesn't hide from the fact that, uh, customers have multiple clouds, but they have a primary and secondary, but they're not gonna have, like, five or six major clouds. Yeah, it's hard to get these teams trained at to begin with. So there's a hedge. There's a supplier leverage. I get that. He's totally gets that. But if you're Amazon, you're gonna have your annual conference. You really don't wanna be in the business of talking about the other guys cloud, you say hybrid, right? It's on my show. You know, like you're competing. This is there's definitely competition between Microsoft and A W s. So you gotta respect that. But yeah, of course. There's multiple clouds called hybrid eks everywhere. Uh, container service. I mean, >>especially global, right? Different cloud providers of different strengths in different regions. You know, Microsoft, very strong in the Gulf. AWS isn't you know. So if you're a global company, um, you know, then you almost by default, have to go multi cloud multiple cloud vendors because of geographic differences. Obviously, China, with its own set of cloud providers. So, you know, smaller midsize businesses could get away with one, but As soon as you become global, you have to use more. >>Well, I'm a big fan of distributed computing. I loved the large scale concept of distribute computing. You got regions. Now you've got local zones. You got I O t edge. You got cloud going on Prem Edge. It's really an edge game at this point. Greater now distributed hyper Put hyper next to anything hyper cloud on your sounds better Piper >>Cube. And the opportunities the cloud providers and Amazon, you know, certainly is leading. This is the ability to take this complex, hyper distributed world and use their management tools toe create a normalized operating simplify What would be an overly complex world about it? >>Okay, we got a break. Just quick plug. There's a big salesforce event coming up on December 10th. Check it out on the Amazon site that that plug in you watching the cube stay tuned for more coverage after this break

>>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco and welcome back to the cubes coverage. Just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual. We're not face to face the cubes been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro, his beast vice president of product, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom. You are the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multi-cloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area it's converged in multiple theaters and technology super important. So I want to get into that with you. But first thousand eyes was recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important, the new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco is going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talking programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco. Tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, surely been an exciting six months, 4,000 eyes on the entire team and our customers as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to enable your employees to be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the COVID dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, the home of the conference and book talk track we'll get to in a second, but it exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandoned from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home VPNs or passe. Maybe it's SD when maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running off for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed this at scale. What's your view on this? And what does thousand nights thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was a early, simple, uh, connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. And you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone. We'll totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing barrel independence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say key functions of that application. >>Those three things together ultimately are creating that level of complex service chain. It really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience and ultimately the it organization it's really chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And yet then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it and be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, as you're getting to some of these high-scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation self-healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices earlier, you mentioned data out of the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're going to look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on cube before. How does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things what's important to look at? Can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. Your first off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talked about right aside, you know, data, um, alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen, and you have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data to become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly. They'll allow you to be able to see the unseen, allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the form of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back to the network fabric, whether that is a dressing you're modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen within our customers using thousand eyes data, be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then use that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as our employees, >>Classic policy based activities take into a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it people like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or arcane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I got to ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you know, we saw it within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams were really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have naturally thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their CTP and infrastructure across, uh, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes endpoint point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device in the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you got the cloud. How is your technology help the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, a great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence to action and where in the past you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the Nike organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes and how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language and allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, within thousand eyes in terms of a need, enabling that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our Sherlyn capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, what, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization. But it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. They're having worked collaboratively with the different ESPs that they're pairing with, with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I've got to ask you the question we think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it. Teams. Um, you see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them. It's got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because it does a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a, a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler. The new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. Talk about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a worm situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve the issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment in time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you the ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your bounds, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that, as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type event analogy, you'll be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to, uh, be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light as people using say, thousand eyes, as part of saying se land base for allow where you're looking to say benchmark and gain confidence as you look to scale out and either, you know, benchmarking different ESPs within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch to give you that competence, to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights. The classic financial model ROI got baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't love automation, automation's awesome, right? Automate things. But as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products, it means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you look at automation and everything as a, and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the value that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only process and gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you'd say, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need the level of automation. You'd be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And, you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally difficult to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking, salt >>Feature it's under the hood, the feature of everything, because the service is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness and the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>And ultimately, I think, you know, when you look at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a product perspective, we, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure it's running upon, but the network it's connected to. And then ultimately the user in the sense of that user and by leveraging a thousand eyes, being able to then integrate thousand 18 to how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the developers looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of how your users will access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. And we've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on sharing. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Do you have a car, a vice president of product here with thousand eyes. Now, part of Cisco I'm John farrier, host of the cube cube virtual for dev net. Create virtual. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube >>with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its Ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the Cube. Virtual 2020. Coverage of VM Ware, VM World 2020 Virtual. I'm Sean for your host of the Cube. Join with Dave Alonso. We got a great guest. Carol Carpenter, Who's the chief marketing officer of VM Ware Cube Alumni move from Google Cloud to VM Ware. Carol, great to see you. And thanks for coming on the Cube for VM World 2020. Virtual coverage. Thank you. >>Yeah. Thank you both for having me here. Delighted to be here. >>So we've talked about many times before, but you're very in the cloud. Native space. You know the market pretty well. I gotta ask you what attracted you to come to the end? Where what was the What was the reason? Now you're heading up marketing for VM. Where what was the driving force? >>Well, a few things, you know, Number one. I've always had a passion for this space. I love the cloud. I was involved in an early stage company prior to Google Cloud that really had the promise of helping people get enterprises, get to the cloud faster. Um, and when I, you know, look around and I Look which kind of which companies are shaping the future of technology? VM ware, Certainly one of those companies. Second reason goes without saying the people in the culture, incredible leadership and empowerment all throughout Vienna, where and it's it's quite exceptional. And the third is I really think customers are on a really tough journey. Um, and having been at a hyper scaler, having worked at places where you know, cos air in a more traditional legacy environment, it makes it made me realize like this is a tough journey. And I think the, um where is uniquely positioned to help enterprises with what is a complex journey, and it's a multi cloud world. I'm sure you know that our customers know it. And how do you make all these disparate systems and tools work together to deliver the business results? I believe the M where is uniquely positioned Thio. >>It's interesting. VM Ware is going to a whole nother level. We've been commenting on our analysis segments around the business performance, obviously, and the moves they've made over the years. This is our 11th VM world. Keep started 10 years. 11 years ago. Um, we've been seeing the moves so great. Technology moves, product moves, business performance. The relationship with the clouds is all in place. But then Cove, it hits, okay? And then all that gets accelerate even further because you've got, you know, companies that I have to use this downtime to re modernized. And some people get a tailwind with modern application opportunities. So it's interesting time to be, you know, on this trajectory with VM ware and the clouds, what's your thoughts? Because you join right in the middle of all this and you're in and I of the storm. What's your view on this? Because this is a, uh, forcing function for companies to not only accelerate the transformation, but to move faster. >>Yeah, for sure. You know, it's been an incredibly challenging time, I think for everyone, and I hope everyone who's watching and listening is safe. Um, you know, we talk about decades of progress being made in two weeks, and I guess that's the silver lining. If there is one, which is this ultimate work? Remote work from home that we've enabled and the work anywhere. It's been completely liberating in so many ways. Um, you know, it's an area where I look at, there's how we lead our teams and how do we maintain relationships with customers, which obviously requires a different type of interaction, of different type of outreach? And and then there's what are the solutions at scale And you know, im I pleased to say, like there were absolute big lifts in certain areas of our business, particularly around, you know, remote work and our digital workspace solutions, you know, really enabling companies to get thousands of workers up and running quickly. That, combined with our security solutions and our SD wan solution to really enable all of these remote homes to become thousands of remote offices. So there's all of that, which is incredibly positive. And at the same time, you know, I have to tell you, I joke, but I still haven't figured out where the bathroom is, you know, free three plus months. So that way I miss the human connection. I miss being able to just see people and give people a hug now and then when you want Thio >>e mean, VM. Where? Carol, It's amazing. Company. You mentioned the culture before. It really started as a workstation virtualization company, right? And then so many challenges, you know, and use a computing. You guys do an acquisition bringing Sanjay Poon in all of a sudden, you're the leader there cloud, you know, fumbled a little bit, but all of a sudden, the cloud strategy kicking on all cylinders, we see that, you know, growing like crazy. The networking piece, the storage piece you mentioned security, which is a amazing opportunity. Containers. They're gonna kill kill VM ware. Well, I guess. Guess what? We're embracing them. It seems like culturally vm where it just has this attitude of if there's a wave, you know, we're gonna ride it, we're gonna embrace it and figure out how to deliver value to our customers. What's your thinking on that? >>Yeah. I mean, it's such a VM ware, such an innovative company. And that is another reason that attracted me on disability to look at what customers need. Like, this is an incredibly were an incredibly customer centric company, listening to customers, understanding their needs and providing a bridge to where they need to go while also providing them the resiliency and needs they have today. That is what thrills me. And I think we have such an incredible opportunity to continue to drive that future innovation while also being that bridge. Um, I have to tell you, you know, I've known VM Ware for a long time, and what appealed to me is this broader portfolio and this opportunity to actually tell a broader business value story to be able to actually tell that story about not just digital transformation but business transformation. So that's what that's. That's the journey we're on and it's it's happening. It's really I mean, you look at all the customers, whether it's, you know, JPMorgan Chase to, um, a nonprofit like feeding America to, you know, large companies like Nike. It's really incredible the impact and value we could bring. And I feel that my job and the marketing team's job is, I tell them like they're all these diamonds in the backyard. It's just some of them are a little dirty, and some are they're just not fully revealed, and it's our job, todo and you know, dust them off and tell the story to help customers and prospects understand the value we could bring. >>That's how should we be thinking? How should we be thinking about that? That business value, transformation, business transformation? You you? Certainly when you think of an application's company that there's easily connect the dots. But how should we be thinking about VM Ware in that value chain? You an enabler for that transformation? Can you provide some color there? >>Yeah, let me give you some specific examples like Look at, um, so the addition of Tan Xue to the portfolio is what enables us to have these discussions that, let's face it, the only reason people need or want infrastructure is because they want to deploy an application. They want to write an application. They want to move an application. And Tan Xue, which is our container based, kubernetes based orchestration solution and lots more to it. That's what how it is in simple terms that gives us the ability to work with companies, lines of business as well as developers around riel. Business transformation. So two quick examples one. I can't say the name quite yet, but I think very large pharmaceutical company who wants to launch and have a mobile app to help patients. People who are taking Cove in 19 tests get the results, understand the results, ask questions about the results and have one place to go that's really powerful. And to be able to develop an app that is scale built for scale, built for enterprise, built to be resilient when patients are trying to get information. Um, in four weeks, I mean, that's pretty. That's quite incredible. Another example is, you know, very large e commerce company that, you know, you mentioned Cove it and some of the challenges we know retail has certainly been kind of, ah, tale of two cities, right? Some companies with lots of lift and others with real struggle in the physical world. But anyway, large retailer who had to within weeks flip to curbside pickup, Um, being able to look customers being able to look at inventory on demand, those kinds of capabilities required ah, wholesale rewrite of many of their e commerce applications. Again, that's a place where we can go in and we can talk to them about that. And by the way, as you know, the challenge is it's one thing to write and deploy an app, and then it's another to actually run it at scale, which then requires the networking, scalability and flexibility it requires. The virtual, um, storage. It requires all the other elements that we bring to the table. So I think that is the That's kind of the landing spot. But it's not the ending spot when we talk to customers. >>Carol talk about the challenge of VM World 2020 this year. It's not in person. It's one of them. It's an industry event. It's been one every year. It's a place where there's deep community, deep technical demos, beep deep discussions. Ah, lot of face to face hallway conversations. That's not happening. It's virtual. Um, you came right in the middle of all this. You guys pulled it together. Um, got a You got keynote sessions and thanks for including the Cube. We really appreciate that as well. But you have all this content. How did you handle that? And how's that going and and share some, uh, color on what it took to pull it off. And what's your expectation? >>Yeah, So you know. Yes. VM world is considered the gold standard when it comes to industry events. I mean, from the outside in this is the canonical I t event. And so I feel, really, you know, honored that this franchise is now in my hands and have an incredible team of people who obviously have been working on it for prior to my joining. So I just feel honored to be part of it. Um, this is going to be the world's largest VM world. And on the one hand, miss the energy in the room, Miss seeing people, everything you talked about, the serendipitous interactions that the food line or coffee bar. Um, but going virtual has so many benefits. Some of the things we were talking about earlier, the ability to reach many, many more people. This event is going to be 5 to 6 times larger than our physical event. And that's not even including the VM world that we're running in Asia in China. And the other thing that makes me super happy is that over 65% of our registrants and of the attendees here are actually first time VM world attendees. So this ability to broad in our tent and make it easier I mean, let's face it. You know, being able to fly, whether it was Vegas or San Francisco is originally planned. Stay in these expensive hotels and take that time it was. It's a big ask. So by going virtual, we actually have expanded our audience tremendously. Three other thing I am really excited about is we have 800 plus content sessions. We are following the sun. We have live Q and A after every session. We have really the best mobile app for any events, so I encourage you to take a look at that which does enable the chat interaction as well as you know, path funding through the many channels we have of contact. Its's Look, we're learning, and I'd love to follow up with you later to hear what you've learned because I know you've also been doing a lot. Virtually, I think the world is going to move to something that's more hybrid, some combination of virtual and small group, you know, in person, some local events of some sort. Um, but this one I'm super excited about, we we really have seen high engagement, and I just think, Well, I look forward to hearing everyone's feedback. E >>I think one of the things that we've been hearing is is that I can now go to the M world. I can participate now virtually it's it's kind of I would call First Generation writes me the Web early days. But you're right. I think it's gonna open up the eyes to a bigger community, access a bigger pool of data, bigger pool of interactions and community. And when they do come back face to face, people be ableto fly and meet people they met online. So we think this is gonna be a real trend where it's like the r A. Y of this virtual space is tremendous. You could do demos. You conserve yourselves, you could consume a demo, but then meet people face to face. >>And by the way, we have, you know, a tremendous number of fun activities. Hopefully you've taken part in some of them. Everything from puppy therapy Thio magic shows to yoga Thio Um you know John Legend legend performing. So I agree. I think the level personalization and ability to self serve is going to be out of this world. So yeah, it's just the best. >>Your event, just some key things that we can share with the audience. Cloud City has over 60 solution Demos Uh, there's a VM World challenge That's fun. There's also an ex Ask the expert section where you got Joe Beta and Ragu and other luminaries there to ask the questions of the That's the top talent in the company all online. And of course, you get the CTO Innovation keynote with Greg Lavender. So you know you're bringing the big guns out on display on it. Z free access. Um, it's awesome. Congratulations. We're looking forward Toa see, with the day that looks like after, So what's the story line for you? If you had to summarize out the VM World 2020 this year, what's coming out from the data? What are you hearing? Is the key themes, Actually, the tagline. You know, uh, you know, possible together, Digital foundation, unpredictable world. But what are you hearing, uh, in the virtual hallways? >>Well, a few things, but I'd say the top take away is that VM where has spread its wings, has embraced mawr of the different ICTY audiences and is driving business transformation for companies in new and pretty unique ways. What and then obviously like slew of announcements, new partnerships, new capabilities, everything around multi cloud we have. As you know, every single cloud provider is a partner on the security front, intrinsic security built in throughout the entire stack. The the other part that I I think it's super exciting are these partnerships were announcing everything from what we're doing with and video to make a i mawr accessible for enterprises in production to what we're doing around sassy, secure access Service Edge. Being able to provide a holistic, secure, distributed environment so that every worker, no matter where they are, every endpoint, every remote office could be fully secured. >>You know, in VM where is the gold standard of Of of the Ecosystem and VM world? Of course, they're all in the showcase and it was hard fought. I mean, it took a long time to get there, and you know, the challenges of building that. And now you mentioned in video. You see all these new tail winds coming in and and then I've seen companies launch at VM World. And so you know that ecosystem is, as I say, it is very difficult to build. But then becomes a huge asset because this just gives you so much leverage. A zone organization, your company's your partners, your customers. >>Thank you, Dave. Yeah, we're super excited. And I should say that like the partner and the ecosystem here is unparalleled. And our challenge is how do we provide? And you know, this Like, how do we provide the strategic vision and that practitioner level content? So we're gonna you know, that's what we're committed. Teoh is making sure that our practitioners get everything they need in every every area of expertise, as well as making sure we're conveying our business story. >>Carol, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate the inside one final question for you as we get through this crisis soon hybrid comes back for events, certainly. But as the CMO the next gen story, you now have a chief customer officer. We interviewed him. Well, the n words go to the next level. What's your goals? What are you trying to accomplish? And you've got a lot of things going on. Certainly a big story to tell. A lot of ingredients. Toe kinda cook a great, great story here. What's your goals? See him over the next year. >>You know, my goal is to help drive the business transformation and you've heard it from Submit. You've heard it from others at this point. But really, you know, the company is going We're going through a dramatic transformation from being, you know, ah, license on Prem Company to being a multi cloud, modern SAS company. So my goal is to support that. And that means modernizing the way we do marketing which, you know, you say, Well, what does that mean? It means customer focus, customer lifecycle marketing. It means agility, being able to actually use data to drive how we interact with customers and users so that they have those great experiences and they continue to use the product and Dr Adoption and Growth. And the other part of it is, um, b two b marketing, as you may or may not have noticed, is incredibly boring and dull. And I know I'm guilty of this, too. We get caught up in a lot of but jargon and the language, and I am on a mission that we're going to do great B two B marketing that helps customers understand what we do and where we express the value simply clearly and in in differentiated way. >>That's awesome. >>Yeah, Why should the consumer guys have all the fun? Right? >>Right, Well, and that's part of being, by the way a SAS or subscription company is. Everything we do needs to be consumer simple at scale and with the secure ability and the reliability of what an enterprise means. >>Well, I got to tell you that the irony of all this virtual ization of the world with Covic virtual events e one of the big surprise is we're gonna be looking back at is how much it's opened up Thio Mawr audiences and new ways of modernizing and taking advantage of that. Certainly with content in community, you guys are well positioned. Congratulations for a great event. Thank you for coming on and sharing your insights, and we'll keep in touch. We'll try. We'll try to make it exciting, Mister Cube. Thank you. Appreciate >>it. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, John. >>I'm Jennifer David. Lot Cube. Coverage of the M 2020 Virtual. This is the Virtual Cube. Have now virtual sets everywhere. All around the world. It's global. Thanks for watching

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage VMworld 2020. Brought to you by the VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Everyone, welcome to "theCUBE's" virtual coverage of VMworld 2020. I'm John furrier with my cohosts, Stuart Miniman and Dave Vellante. 10 years covering VM it's our 11th Vmworld, 2010 was our first. Guys, this is an unusual event. It's not in person. Analyzing the keynotes and essentially the main announcements in the general sessions. Let's analyze VMworld 2020. I know it's hard, we're not in person. A lot of the hallway conversations we're grabbing on Twitter. Obviously we've got our Cube interviews on "theCube".net. There's a link on the front page of the VMworld site. Check it out and go check out all the dozens of interviews we're doing here with our community. But, the event is "Digital Foundation "For An Unpredictable World," that's the theme. Most of the announcements are around future architecture, but the blocking and tackling is around AI With NVIDIA. You got security and you got some really key announcements around networking Stuart. So guys, what's your take on all this? Because, VMware has to set the table. They've made good moves under Gelsinger, last few years, you're seeing another Q2 successful quarter, Dave, you're starting to see VMware's investments pay off Raghu and the brain child who are behind VMware making these calls Stuart. Guys, this is the VMware's moment to go to the next level. What's your thoughts, Dave, we'll start with you. >> Well, I mean, as always you saw VMware have on stage some really high profile guests. So John Donahoe from Nike, who knows a little bit about the enterprise, right? He left ServiceNow after a couple of years, stint. Ironically ServiceNow is pushing a hundred billion dollar valuation. Nike's at 150. But he's more comfortable in the consumer world. CEO of Nvidia. I think that's a key move, Nvidia the arm acquisition. That's going to be critical at the edge. You're seeing VMware just throw its blanket around telco Edge cloud with VMware cloud and AWS, which is doing very well. We're going to talk about that in our cube segment. You're, seeing them really go after hybrid. And so they're really about expanding their marketplace and they've done a great job of that. For translating engineering into customer value and getting paid for it. >> I want to come back to you Dave, on this edge because some of the key trends that I think we've been on now that the whole world is kind of realizing that they're kind of going mainstream. One's been the edge and you mentioned ARM, and we got analysis on that. Stuart, cloud native, we've been banging on the cloud native drone. We've been riding that wave, now with the Snowflake IPO just happened earlier, you starting to see cloud native, everything is coming true. It's kind of evolving in front of us right now and the whole world is now on board with this new mega trend enterprise computing companies, the largest IPO, since we enrolled, actually if you look at Snowflake, so you start to see cloud native and Enterprise Technology as the next wave, this is huge. And VMware is a big part of it. Your thoughts from how they did the show. >> Yeah, so John, one of the questions we always ask is, how fast are customers moving? Are the vendors moving along with them? Our friend and often co-hosts in "theCube" Keith Townsend said, and it was kind of faint praise. "VMware has moved at the speed of the CIO." Dave, I've heard you so many times this year say that the impact of the pandemic, that the financial ramifications has been an accelerator for many of the transformational journeys that we've been talking about. Move to cloud much faster adopting cloud native faster. Companies that have gone through their digital transformation, are able to react much faster. And to be honest, I'm not sure that VMware's moving fast enough. We've seen them do a number of big acquisitions over the last few years. Some of them are doing great. Carbon Black, great to see them go deeper into the security space. We've talked a lot about that before. Some of the others, Pivotal came out of VMware and got pulled back in. Datrium was a recent acquisition. What we hear inside is, some of those groups and product lines have been trimmed back. So as companies are looking to move faster, they're looking to AWS is that bar. And while AWS is a big partner for VMware and very important, how many people will get to VMware on AWS and say, well, maybe I can scale back what my VMware state is, or maybe those some environments. So, we've said for the longest time, cloud is a double edged sword for many players you need to partner as closely as you can to keep that momentum going forward. But VMware is also getting cut by some of those deals. Boy, John, there was a big news a couple of weeks before the show here about how the VMware cloud on AWS, it's doing great. And if it's a big deal, the channel often gets cut out of it and Amazon's taking it. So there definitely are some things that put up a little bit warning lights for me as to who is winning, when it comes to the partnership. >> That's a great point, the ecosystem in VMware, out of 10 years we've been covering here, this is our 11th year with ""theCube"," we've always had that ecosystems evolving. And I think cloud native to me really sees how that's driving them with cloud. We saw that, serverless, you starting to see cloud native. And what cloud proved Dave was that developers really shouldn't care about the infrastructure being abstracted away. But now you look at multiple clouds, with VMware's now moving into having a multicloud kind of backbone, connected to these environments as a key strategy. But then you look at the edge. The edge is about purpose built devices, run with software and data. So whether it's at an office on a person or in space, you have these devices that is really not about the hardware, it's about the software running on them. They have to run into multiple environments. They are purpose built. They do have to run like cloud native. The edge is the next opportunity for VMware with multicloud. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Well, I think there's no question. And again, the relevance of Nvidia on stage, we think that ARM and Nvidia are going to dominate AI inferencing at the edge real time, and you're going to need much more efficient processing at the edge than you're going to get with traditional x86 architectures. So today what we're seeing is a lot of companies, Dell, HPE included a throwing over x86 boxes to the edge. I think they clearly realized that ARM is going to be a player there and now with the Nvidia move. And I think, multicloud is really something that is starting to become real. I've often said multi-cloud has been more of a symptom of multi-vendor than an actual strategy. Well, that's changing. I think people don't want lock-in. I think they realize that they've got the right horse for the right course, and you're seeing Red Hat and VMware emerge as real leaders there. You're seeing it in the data, you're seeing VMware cloud on AWS. Okay, that's in AWS, but you're also seeing VMware Cloud Foundation and it's other VMware cloud capabilities emerging as in demand, a lot of spending velocity, a lot of interest gaining share. And so these are becoming real and they're becoming fundamental strategies as to your points Stuart, CIO's are catching up. And it's, actually becoming not just slideware, but real aware. >> Well, I'll debate that whole idea that CIO's are catching up, but I'd say CSOs already caught up. CIO's are catching up to the CSO, but this brings up the question Stuart, of what a modern app is. And this is one of the highlights of the show, modern applications, and feels a lot like kind of window dressing to the cloud native conversation because Tanzu is built into it but cloud native really is. This is where the modern apps are being built. And it's about security, it's about multiple clouds. So the question for you is, are we going to have a cloudless architecture? Because we've got serverless. Because if you think about modern apps, should you really care about which cloud it runs on? I'm sure Andy Jassy would be saying he does care. And you see Google almost shying away from having that conversation. But, Tanzu kind of speaks to a cloudless strategy. Is that something you see? >> John you're absolutely right. The goal we want is... Developers don't even want to think about the infrastructure at all. So cloudless serverless, storageless, it would all be wonderful if they didn't have to do that. Now, of course, data is the lifeblood of my business. We need to make sure that things are secure all the time. Serverless is wonderful and there's even some early connections that VMware and others in the traditional infrastructure space are tying to serverless environment. But if I look at VMware, John, this still isn't, where the app dev team people come, this is an infrastructure show and it needs to be an enabler for what they're doing. If you look at how Kubernetes integrates into VMware, it's, take your virtual estate and let's put containers in it and it can be managed in that environment. Or we've got some new tools we're developing and do some of that multicloud world, as opposed to the companies that are born in the cloud, or have a heavy leaning towards the cloud. This might not be attractive for them, but in many ways, it's extending what VMware has done for a long time. They've, got strong position here. And that's why John, as you've said, all the other clouds want to partner with VMware ' 'cause they've got just so many customers there that they will be... it's hybrid today it will be hybrid in the future. The public cloud is a pool, but the edge is also a pool. So that those new architectures like are starting to be put forward with project Monterey, give people a roadmap as to where they can go. And VMware absolutely is a key player in that discussion. >> Yeah, well, I want to bring this up real quick on project Monterey and then I want to get Dave's reaction too what the buyers are thinking about. 'Cause you know, we can debate the speed of the CIO and I'd love to have that debate in a separate segment. I think,COVID and the security threats are forcing the businesses to really be focused because if you not thinking about having an environment where people are working remotely and that's with COVID, and I'll see with the security vectors, if you don't have an architecture Stuart, then you're going to be screwed. So I think project Monterey feels to me as that VMware answer like, look, and you can have an end to end architecture. I think there's marketechure there's architecture, that's one thought. So let's react to that Stuart. How much of that do you see as, look at, if you want to move faster CIO, because they have to now move fast. COVID showed that and the ones that aren't are failing and it doesn't change the buyer behavior, Dave. Stuart we'll start with you Monterey. >> John I don't think we know yet. It is more marketecture I'd say you got to get into the whisper suites, have those discussions. There was not as much, pre-briefing on this. We talked for awhile, VMware on AWS, those solutions, they take two or three years to bake out. So I think Monterey is a good vision. They have some of the architectural underpinnings, but I'm not ready to say, "hey, you want to deploy that gear in 2020? "That's the blueprint that you want to use going forward," but it gets VMware a seat at the table. >> I'm a big fan of the project I think it's about time someone put a stake in the ground. So this is what a modern architecture looks like and love to debate that further, we'll do that another time, Dave buyers. Were they buying the VMware? What's your data tell you in terms of where the customers are right now in 2020, you've been doing a ton of breaking analysis on COVID fire behavior, spending patterns. How does VMware potentially its ecosystem stack up with all these focused cloud native, multicloud modern app and security and networking? >> Well, let's start with some data and I'll bring up this slide, which is this kind of wheel slide. And it's ETR data that talks to what we call net score. And essentially what it's doing is it's taking the green in this wheel, which is spending more and it's subtracting the red, which is spending less or leaving. And then you see that in the middle is 53% are flat. So they've got a net score at 29. What does that mean? That means this is a mature company, which is amazing to me that VMware continues to really outperform from a financial standpoint. Yeah, so you could see that, we subtract the red from the green. This is again a sign of a mature company, but the key is they've got to continue to invest. Now they make a lot of inorganic acquisitions and some organic acquisitions, but Dell, as we know, is using VMware's cashflow to restructure its balance sheet to go public, et cetera. So if you could bring up the next slide, if you would guys. This is a slide I like to share. And it shows in the vertical axis, spending momentum, which is net score and the horizontal axis, which is presence in the survey. It's a 1200 person survey or a respondent survey, IT buyers. Look where VMware cloud on AWS is. So while VMware has a 29%, net score, look at VMware cloud on AWS, look at VMware cloud, which is cloud foundation. And you can see Red Hat is in there with OpenShift, even OpenStack, believe it or not and telcos. And then just see the hyperscalers in the upper right. Everybody wants to be AWS or Azure, and you sort of see Google there. But the point of this is the momentum in hybrid cloud and multicloud, and VMware really is clearly in a very, very strong position there. So, back to your point about project Monterey, they're basically using this hybrid cloud notion to go everywhere. It's that TAM expansion that I love to talk about. And it's the innovation. The big question is if Dell's going to be squeezing VMware R&D, will it be able to continue to execute on that translation of engineering into product and customer value? That's going to be a challenge. We saw it decades ago, where IBM got squeezed doing stock buybacks and dividends R&D is the lifeblood of innovation. And so that's something that we have to watch very closely, I think. >> Just to one quick followup, Dave, we're talking about the financial pieces here we are in 2020, there's been the discussions and I know you've dug into it a bunch. By the time we get to VMworld 2021 will the ownership of VMware and the role that Michael Dell has, change? And will that impact that investment capability that you talked about? The cashflow just, I know you've done a lot of research on this and could it help educate our audience? >> Well, it's going to change the income statement of Dell because they won't have VMware in there anymore. It won't change VMware's cashflow. It will affect VMware and Dell's balance sheet. And so two companies, one chairman and the chairman is going to say, okay, let's rebalance the balance sheets and create an equilibrium. So Dell has less debt, VMware has more debt and we'll try to thread the needle so they're both investment grade, which will lower the interest costs on that debt. But fundamentally, I don't think it's going to change anything in terms of strategy, go to market, the close relationship was between Dell and VMware. the thing to watch is VMware's, Dell's piggyback. And so I would rather see a lot of that go... once this equilibrium is reached, I want to see that go more in R&D. You know, again, remember IBM has spent $6 billion in R&D for the past two decades IBM was right there. They could have invested in cloud the same way Amazon did. And in the same way that Microsoft did, they were kind of equal 20 years ago. And look what happened. You don't want that to happen to VMware. They must continue to spend on R&D and innovate. >> Oh, well let's get to the innovation strategy in a second, but I want to ask the ecosystem question, because if you go back in history guys, and remember when Pat Gelsinger had that year, where he was basically given the presentation of his life, and he was in the hot seat and there's a lot of rumors spinning around. Since then it's just been nothing but exceptional performance on as a company executing, all new bets have been played it's almost like he'd cleaned house, put the ship in the right direction they've been smooth sailing since strategically making all the right moves. Okay now that VMware is back on their footings and Dave they have a solid foundation, what happens to the ecosystem because now that their houses in order, what do they do with the ecosystem? How do you see it evolving? >> Well look, I mean the ecosystem is looking for alternatives. I mean they have to participate in VMware. It's part of their go to market. You remember Todd Neilson used to say, "For every dollar spend on a VMware license, "15 or 20 or $18 is spent in the ecosystem," you don't hear that type of ratio anymore. Maybe it still exists I'm sure it does because it's a very vibrant and robust ecosystem but look, let's face it. Jeff Clark and Michael Dell are very clear. We are going to do a much closer integration than EMC ever did. And look at HPE we're looking for alternatives, driving to the edge. That's a huge opportunity for people. VMware becomes the ecosystems cash cow, but they need new growth and new strategic opportunities. And so they got to play nice, but there's more green fields out there. >> Stuart multicloud and cloud native with Tansu I think this is a really big opportunity to reset the ecosystem with services, because it used to be vendors, you bolt on some data backup and recovery, and you have a bunch of people doing storage around VMware, and these big white spaces, they're kind of huge white spaces. But now, when you start getting into cloud native, is a whole new landscape developing. Your thoughts because we're seeing some activity, certainly companies that are building on top of clouds that are building on top of clouds. So you've got Snowflake builds on Amazon now, other clouds and you have companies building on Snowflake. So you're starting to see this kind of new interconnected cloud native landscape, your thoughts. >> Yeah, well John there's definitely a huge tug of war in the ecosystem. One of the things that's been really nice if you were a VMware partner, let's take data protection. Huge ecosystem companies like Veeam, that were created in that environment. Hot companies like Rubrik and Cohesity grew very much working in VMware. All of them now play natively with the cloud environments, but they also get pulled along when you do a VMware Cloud on AWS, on Azure, on Google, on Oracle. So VMware will pull some of the ecosystem with them, but that tug of war is well, if the customer decides to just go fully cloud native, that software needs to work there and you would think that the vendor actually makes more money if it's just natively there, there's not that middleman extra piece. So VMware has a slice the pie and like Microsoft or Oracle behind them, can they justify that value for the license that you're paying when I go to some of these environments. So VMware does not have the pull in the ecosystem Dave talked a bit about it. HPE, Cisco, IBM, all companies that were early, early big huge proponent of VMware now very much are investing heavily in alternative. So VMware major player but no longer the gravity that everyone orbits around. >> Dave, what do you think? >> I want to bring up another data point if I could I want to share something with you. This is a slide that talks about... It asks customers. Why would you not work with VMware? Why would you replace them? What are the reasons? And three things stand out to me, it's not around cloud on the very left alignment with Cloud they've taken care of that with the AWS deal and even now Oracle. And you look at the right hand side, you see technology lead or lag that's innovation. Look at how that gray a couple surveys ago, has gone down to the yellow. So that's off the table, not a problem with innovation, look at total cost of ownership that's gone down, in terms of concerns. The one concern is price and that stays up there. If that's your biggest challenge, that your price is too high, that says to me that VMware's ticking all the boxes of value. So they're in a really, really good position if they can continue to innovate and that's why I've been harping so much on innovation and R&D and key acquisitions they're are great acquire of companies. So, I see this as this data is very, very positive for VMware. If your price is too high and that's your big objection, all you need as good salespeople. >> Or also you'd lower the price and you shift the value to say new features, say cloud native or security. I'll see the movement they've been making with NSX Gelsinger famous quotes are things like, "Kubernetes the dial tone of the internet, "and NSX is the crown jewel security is a do over." So NSX Dave and Stuart, this been a big part of their theme every year. That's a core feature for their security play. That's where they're going to put a lot of value in there. You guys, what's your thoughts on that because you've got Cisco in going that " mh we're frenemies" that's what Sanjay Poonen says, but are they really frenemies? >> But culturally VMware is an engineering driven company they a great engineering team and they don't have dogma about these new... they don't get defensive about some new trends. They embraced Kubernetes, they finally figured out Cloud, they were sort of defensive originally, but they realized hey, and they got religion. So that's the smart thing to do, go on to the next way maybe take a little bit of heat if you've got to go through a transition, but they've done a phenomenal job of making those transitions and staying relevant >> What's the big wave guys? What's the big wave that VMware's riding? The 10 years out we're in we've seen the movie, we've been through a decade with VM world coverage Stuart Dave next 10 years, what's the big wave or waves plural? >> Well, cloud is the first one that they addressed no doubt and then they are in my mind, the leader, or certainly a leader in multicloud. Edge I think there's a big question Mark there, AI is going to be everywhere. I think security is the really interesting opportunity for VMware and it's going to be... the big battle and security is, do you go after these point products like Okta and CrowdStrike and Zscaler and SailPoint who are really doing very well right now in the market or do you want an integrated stack that can be, you good enough VMware will say it's best to breed. We'll see that is a huge opportunity for them because security just keeps getting more and more critical. We've seen that with COVID. >> Let's do final word on your thoughts on the next 10 years for VMware looking back and learn and looking forward. >> Yeah well Dave just building off what you were just saying there, we said that the mission for Pat Gelsinger was, could he do for VMware, what Indel had done for the longest time, which has expanded Tam, expand what markets to go into, but not completely tick off the ecosystem and have them run away. So you saw here at the show, I mean Dave, Zscaler is a partner there. Security absolutely is a monster opportunity and John networking, networking, right. But it should be multibillion dollar business for VMware and they can eat some of that multicloud environment. we talk specifically about SD-WAN, now that cloud's doing well. So VMware that's software across environments, hybrid cloud multicloud, they're well positioned today, they just need to move a little bit faster and make sure they don't bleed talent and continue to support their customers because Dave, you're right how many times have people said, "Microsoft too expensive. "Oracle's too expensive." Here we are in 2020, they still have pretty strong positions VMware still has a very strong position. >> Well, I'll just add, I think it just shows what happens when you have a technical visionary, like Gelsinger in the lead and you have an industry visionary of not just technical, not just financial, but industry luminary like Michael Dell. These are very powerful... VMware and Dell have extremely capable management teams and you're seeing it in action >> And you've got Sanjay Poonen who's a great executer as well, he knows how to execute, he knows technology. Guys it's been a great run. I got to say for me personally, I'm so excited that, for 10 years that we've had "theCube" and the team covering the enterprise tech space, you can't be more excited. At least I'm so excited at the number one IPO in the history of wall street is an enterprise tech company. You can't see any more proof points that enterprise technology is now with the whole end to end architecture with the edge. We're talking about space, we're talking about cybersecurity. We're having now conversations with "theCube" that is now ranging... It reminds me David of the B to C world it's almost like consumerized. Now the enterprise technology is now so important that is now taking over the appeal on wall street entrepreneurs, and to me, VMware can tap into that on this next wave and this will be huge. Your thoughts on- >> I think the Snowflake IPO tells us several things. One, I totally agree, it says the technology is the now trend, no question about it. It also really underscores the cloud and it underscores the demand for issues other than the big Apple, Amazon, Google, et cetera. But it's really interesting to see as well the street continues to reward growth. I mean, Snowflake has as a valuation higher than Workday comparable to VMware. In fact it exceeded VMware on its first day. So that says that the street is rewarding growth. It's rewarding technology, it's rewarding cloud. And so that's that to me says great opportunities for companies like VMware who have both growth, great cash flow, they're profitable and they have a huge, huge customer base. So right now things look good for tech >> Dave enterprise tech is hot, it's sexy. Don't you think? Enterprise tech these days? >> Used to be storage is sexy. Now Enterprise tech sexy. >> You guys great run great analysis again, VMworld's virtual, we didn't have the face to face. We didn't have the hang space, but we have the virtual cube. Virtualization has come to "theCube". We have multiple tracks on our site, check out the content. Thanks for the analysis guys. Great keynote announcement coverage of the Vmworld 2020. This is "theCube". Thanks for watching. (digital music)