>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage here. Monaco took a trip all the way out here to cover the Monaco crypto summit. I'm John feer, host of the cube, a lot of action happening presented by digital bits and this ecosystem that's coming together, building on top of digital bits and other blockchains to bring value at the application. These new app, super apps are emerging. Almost every category's gonna be decentralized. This is our opinion and the world believes it. And they're here as well. We've got Oscar ballet CEO co-founder of Agora verse ago is a shopping metaverse coming out soon. We'll get the dates, Oscar. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you very much for having me. >>We were just talking before you came on camera. You're a young gun, young entrepreneur. You're a gamer. Yeah, a little bit too old to miss the eSports windows. You said, you know, like 25. It's great until that's you missed the window. I wish I was 25 gaming the pandemic with remote work, big tailwind acceleration around the idea of this new digital VI virtual hybrid world. We're living in where people want to have experiences that are similar to physical and virtual. You're doing something really cool around shopping. Yeah. Take a explain. What's going on when the, I know it's not out yet. It's in preview. Yeah. Take a minute to explain. >>Absolutely. So a goers really is a way to create those online storefront environments, virtual environments that are really much inspired by video games in their usage and kind of how the experience goes forward. We want to recreate the brand's theme, aesthetic storytelling or the NFT project as well. All of that created in a virtual setting, which is way more interesting than looking at a traditional webpage. And also you can do some crazy stuff that you can't do in real life, in a real life store, you know, with some crazy effects and lighting and stuff. So it's, it's a whole new frontier that we are trying to cover. And we believe that there is a real use case for shopping centric S experiences and to actually make the S a bit more than a buzzword than that. It is at the moment. >>Okay. So a Agora is the shopping. Metaverse a Agora verse is the company name and product name. You're on the Solona blockchain. Got my notes here, but I gotta ask you, I mean, people are trying to do this right now. We see a lot of high end clients like Microsoft showroom, showroom vibes. Yeah. Not so much. E-commerce per se, but more like the big, I mean it's low hanging fruit. Yeah. How do you guys compare to some other apps out there? Other metaverses? >>I think compared to the bigger companies, we are way more flexible and we can act way more quickly than they can. They still have a lot of ground to cover. And a lot of convincing to do with their communities of users metaverse is not really the most popular topic at the moment. It's still very much kind of looked at as a trend, as something that is just passing and they have to deal with this community interaction that is not really favorable for them. There are other questions about the metaverse that are not being talked about as often, but the ecological costs, for example, of running a metaverse like Facebook envisions it, of running those virtual headsets, running those environments. It's very costy on, on, on the ecological side of things and it's not as often mentioned. And I think that's actually their biggest challenge. >>Can you get an example for folks that don't are in the weeds on that? What's the what's what do you mean by that? The cost of build the headsets? Is it the >>Servers? It's more of the servers, really? You need to run a lot of servers, which is really costly on the environment and environmental questions are at the center of public debates. Anyways, and companies have to play that game as well. So they will have to find kind of this balance between, well, building this cool metaverse, but doing it in an ecological friendly manner as well. I think that's their toughest challenge. >>And what's your solution just using the blockchain? Well, an answer to that, cause some people say, Hey, that's not that's, that's not. So eco-friendly either, >>That's part of it. And it's also part of why we're choosing an ecosystem such as Lana as a starter. It's not limited to only Salana, but Salala is, is known as a blockchain. That is very much ecological. Inclined transactions are less polluting. And definitely this problem is, is tackled in the fact that we are offering this product on a case by case scenario brands come to us, we build this environment and we run something that is proper to them. So the scale of it is also way less important that what Facebook is trying to build. >>Yeah. They're trying to build the all encompassing. Yeah. All singing old dancing, as we say system, and then they're not getting a lot of luck. They just got slammed dunked this week on the news, I saw the, you know, FTC moved against them on the acquisition of the exercise app. >>It's it's a tough, it's a tough battle for them. Let's say they >>Still have, they got a headwind. I wouldn't say tailwind. They broke democracy. So they gotta pay for it. Right. Exactly. I always say definitely revenge going on there. I'm not a big fan of what they did. The FTC. I think that's bad move. They shouldn't block acquisitions, but they do buy, they don't really build much. That's well documented. Facebook really hasn't built anything except for Facebook. That's right. Mean what's the one thing Facebook has done besides Facebook. >>I mean, >>It's everything they've tried is failed except for Facebook. Yeah. >>So we'll see what's going on with the Methodist side. >>Well, so successful, not really one trick bony. Yeah. They bought Instagram. They bought WhatsApp, you know, and not really successful. >>That's true. They do have the, the means though, to maybe become successful with something. So >>You're walking out there, John just said, Facebook's not successful. I meant they don't. They have a one product company. They use their money to buy everything. Yeah. And that's some people don't like that, but anyway, the startups like to get bought out. Yeah. Okay. So let's get back to the metaverse it's coming out is the business model to build for others. Are you gonna have a system for users? What's what's the approach? How do you, how are we view viewing this? What's the, the business you're going after? >>So we are very much a B2B type of service where we can create custom kind of tailor made virtual environments for brands, where we dedicate our team to building those environments, which has been what we have been at the start to really kickstart the initiative. But we're also developing the tool that will allow antibody to develop their own shop themselves, using what we give them to do something kind of like the Sims for those that know, building their environment and building their shop, which will they, they, they will then be to put online and for anybody of their user base customers to have a look at. So it's, it's kind of, yeah, the tailor made experience, but also the more broader experience where we want to create this tool, develop this tool, make it accessible to the public with a subscription based model where any individual that has an idea and maybe a product that is interesting for the metaverse be able to create this virtual storefront and upload it directly. >>How long does it take to build an environment? Let's say I was, I wanna do a cube. Yeah. I go to a lot of venues all around the world. Yeah. MOSCON and San Francisco, the San convention center in Las Vegas, we're here in Monaco. How do I replicate these environments? Do I call you up and say, Hey, I need some artists. Do you guys render it? What's the take us through the process. >>Yeah. It's, it's basically a case by case scenario at the moment, very much. We're working with our partners that find brands that are interested in getting into the metaverse and we then design the shops. Well, it depends on the brands. Some have a really clear idea of what they want. Some are a bit more open to it and they're like, well, we have this and this, can you build something? >>I mean, I mean, I can see the apple store saying, Hey, you know, they're pretty standard apple stores. You got cases of iWatches. Yeah. I mean that's easily to, replicateable probably good ROI for them. >>Exactly. It's it's is that what you're thinking? Their team. Exactly. Yeah. It depends. And we, we want to add a layer of something cuz just replicating the store simply. Yeah. It's it's maybe not as interesting, you know, it just, oh, okay. I'm in the store. It's white, everywhere. It's apple. Right. It's like, oh I'm in at the dentist, but we want to add some video game elements to the, to those experiences. But very subtle ones, ones that won't make you feel, oh, I'm playing one of these games, you know? It's yeah. Very supple. >>You can, you can jump into immersive experience as defined by the brand. Yeah. I mean the brand will control the values. So you're say apple and you're at the iWatch table. Yeah. You could have a digital assistant pop in there with an avatar. Exactly. You can jump down a rabbit hole and say, Hey, I want this iWatch. I'm a bike mountain biker. For example, I could get experience of mountain biking with my watch on I fall off, ambulance sticks me up. I mean, all these things that they advertise is what goes >>On. Yeah. And we can recreate these experiences and what they're advertising and into a more immersive experience is what we're trying to our, our goal is to create experiences. We know that, you know, why does someone is someone spend so much at Disneyland? It's like triple the price of whatever, because you know, it's Mickey mouse around you. It's, that's the experience that comes around. And often the experience is more important than the product. Sometimes >>It's hard. It's really hard to get that first class citizen experience with the event or venue physical. Yeah. Which is a big challenge. I know the metaverse are gonna try to solve this. So I gotta ask you what's your vision on solving that? Okay. Cause that's the holy grail. That's what we're talking about here. Yeah. I got a physical event or place. I wanna replicate it in the metaverse but create that just as good first party citizen like experience. >>Yeah. I mean that's the whole event event type of business side of the metaverse is also a huge one. It's one that we are choosing to tackle after the e-commerce one. But it's definitely something that has been asked a lot by the brands where like we want to create, like, we want to release this store for an event that is in real life, but we want to make it accessible to the largest number. That's why we saw with Fortnite as well. All those events, the fashion week in the central land. And >>Sand's a Cub in the Fortnite too. >>There you go. And so the, the event aspect is super important and we want those meta shops to be places where a brand can organize an event. Let's say they want to make the entrance paid. They can do an NFD for that if they want. And then they have to, the user has to connect the NFD to access the event with an idea. Right. But that's definitely possible. And that's how we leverage blockchain as well with those companies and say, you know, you're not familiar with >>This method. You're badging, you know, you're the gaming where we were talking earlier. Yeah. Badging and credentials and access methods. A tech concept can be easily forwarded to NFTs. Yeah, >>Exactly. Exactly. And brands are interested in that. >>Sure. Of course. Yeah. By being the NFT. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I gotta ask you the origination story. Take me through the, the, how this all started. Yeah. Was it a seat of an idea you and your friends get together? Yeah. It was an it scratch. And when you're really into this, what's the origination story and where you're at now. >>So we started off in January really with a, quite a, a different idea. It was called the loft business club. It's an NFT collection on the Salina blockchain. And the whole idea beyond it is that NFT holders would have access to their virtual apartments that we called the lofts. It got very popular. We got a really big following at the start. It was really the trend back in January, February. And we managed to, to sell out successfully the whole collection of 5,000 NFTs. And yeah, we started as a group of friends, really like-minded friends from my hometown in, in, met in France who are today, the co-founders and the associates with different backgrounds. Leo has the marketing side of things. A club has the 3d designing. We had all our different skills coming into it. Obviously my English was quite helpful as well cause French people in English it's, it's not often the best French English. Yeah. And I was, the COO has been doing amazing on the kind of the serious stuff. You know, the taxis lawyers >>Operational to all of trains running on time. >>Exactly >>Sure. People get their jobs done. >>Yeah, exactly. So >>It's well too long of a lunch cuz you know, French would take what, two hour lunches. Yeah. You >>Have to enjoy it. Yeah. >>Coffee and stuff. That's wine, you know about creative, >>But yeah, it's, it's a friend stuff that started as a, as a passion project and got so quick. And today I'm here talking to you in this setting. It's like, >>You're pretty excited. >>I mean it's super excited. It's such a we're you know, we feel like we're building something that's new and our developer team, we're now a team of 15 in total with developers based in Paris, mostly. And everybody is, is feeling like, you know, they're contributing to something new and that's, what's exciting about it. You know, it's something that's not really done or it's trying to be done, but nobody really knows the way >>It's pioneering days. But the, but the pandemic has shifted the culture faster because people like certainly the gen Zs are like, I don't wanna reuse that old stuff. Yeah. And, but they still want to go to like games or events or go to stores. Yeah. But once to go to a store, I mean, I go to apple store all the time where I live in Palo Alto, California. And it's like, yeah, I love that store. And I know it by heart. I don't, I don't have to go there. Yeah. Walking into the genius bar virtually I get the same job done. Yeah, >>Exactly. That's that's what we want to do. And the other pandemic is just it's it's been all about improving, you know, people's condition, life conditions at home, I think. And that's what kind of boosted the whole metaverse conversation and Facebook really grabbing onto it as well. It's just that people were stuck at home and for gamers, that's fine. We used to be stuck at home playing video games all day. Yeah. We survived the pandemic fine. But for other people it was a bit more of a new >>Experience. Well, Oscar, one of the cool things is that you said like mind you and your founding team, always the secret to success. But now you see a lot of old guys like me and gals coming in too, your smart people are like-minded they get it. Especially ones that have seen the ways before, when you have this kind of change, it's a cultural shift and technology shift and business model shift at the same time. Yeah. And to me there's gonna be chaos, but at the end of the day, >>I mean there's fun and >>Chaos. That's opportunity. There's a fun and fun and opportunity. >>It's fun and chaos, you know, and yeah. Likeminded people and the team has really been the driving factor with our company. We are all very much excited about what we're doing and it's been driving us forward. >>Well, keep in touch. Thanks for coming on the cube and sharing, sharing a story with us in the world. We really appreciate we'll keep in touch with you guys. Do love what you do. Oscar ballet here inside the cube Argo verse eCommerce shop. The beginning of this wave is happening. The convergence of physical virtual is a hybrid mode. It's a steady state. It is not gonna go away. It's only gonna get bigger, more cooler, more relevant than ever before. Cube covering it like a blanket here in Monaco, crypto summit. I'm John furrier. We'll be right back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's special showcase with Unstoppable Domains. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. And Matt Gould who's the founder and CEO of Unstoppable Domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company, Unstoppable Domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >> Well, thank you, happy to be here. >> So first of all, love the story you've got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big Web3 wave, which we know that leads into, metaverse unlimited new ways, people are consuming information, content, applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with Web3. So this is kind of what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >> Yeah, well, I would say it's a torrent of change that got unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items and you see it from, you know Gaming and Fortnite and Skins and Warcraft and all these other places. But this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend to a whole lot more applications, from money, which everyone's familiar with, to NFT projects like Board Apes or CryptoBucks. >> You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pod. I think you're on 117 episodes now and growing. You guys do a deep dive, so people watching check out the Unstoppable Podcast. But on the last podcast, Matt, you mentioned some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet, but IP was generated by the United States Department of Commerce and R&D, that became the internet, the internet became the web. Back then it was just get some web pages up and find what you're looking for. Very analog compared to what's now today, now you mentioned gaming. You mentioned how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about the queue for many, many years now, but it's at actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding in groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >> Yeah, well, I think it just goes back to the shift of people's where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much of their assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset compared to literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen. And simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, ways for you to track digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with Web3 is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application and then I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now as we transition from a model in Web2, where you are on a hosted service like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? To a system where it's much more open. You can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you and you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an end-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game, and you can spend it somewhere else. So the user is now enable to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now, you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot in how applications serve up to users. It's going to change their user experiences for instance. >> I think the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying, "I'm done with being mined "and being manipulated by the big Facebook "and the LinkedIns of the world who are using the user." Now, the contract was a free product and you gave up your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does a digital identity architecture work with Unstoppable? How would you guys enabling that? Can you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique, you had an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together, can you explain? >> Yeah, so we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle, when you log on Instagram, you have an Instagram handle. It's your name, right? You have that name that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a 100% of their followers, right? And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers, who are today's small businesses, who build up these large, you know profitable, small businesses online, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. And then they could be deplatformed, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform if that platform raises their fees. You've seen several platforms increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed, right? So we just said, "You know what, "the first thing you're going to want to own "that this is going to be your piece of digital property "is going to be your name across these applications." If you look at every computing network in the history of computing networks, they end up with a naming system. And when we looked back at DNS, you know which came out in the 90s, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier instead of mapping these IP addresses. And then we said to ourselves, "What's going to happen in the future?" Is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their Web2 world in order to identify themselves as they log into all these applications. They're going to have an NFT domain in the Web3 world in order to authenticate and bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. And the bigger breakthrough here is that NFT domain systems all of these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users. They're built on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them and that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging Web3 metaverse. And we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're going to need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of these long IP addresses or hex addresses in the case of crypto. >> Yeah, and also people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name verification, you see the link tree is everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app. I mean, doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people trying to figure it out. I got a github handle. I got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >> Yeah, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app and you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency, and then the first time you try to send it, there's this field where you want to send it and it's this very long hex address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the D apps system replace IP addresses, NFT domains on blockchain systems replace hex addresses for sending and receiving cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you could have an error, or you could send it to the wrong place, it's pretty scary. You could send it to johnfurrier.nft. And so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing it worked with .com domains. And this is the same thing for Bitcoin and other crypto. >> It's interesting, look at the Web2 or trend one to two, Web1 went to two, it was all about use, ease of use, right? And making things simpler, clutter, more pages can't find things that was search, that was Google. Since then, has there actually been an advancement? >> Hmm. >> Facebook certainly is not an advancement, they're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of a free search to all the resources in the world, to which by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the Toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that Web3 crossover? So take us through your vision on digital identity on Web2, Google searching, Facebook's broken, democracy's broken, users aren't in charge to Web3? >> Got it. Well, we can start at Web1. So the way that I think about it is if you go to Web1, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it, right? And then what happened with Web2, was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about Web2, these are all websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or a search engine or whatever. And then as we move to Web3, the new thing that's happening here, is the user is coming onto that experience and they're able to connect in their wallet or their Web3 identity to that app and they can bring their data to the party. So it's kind of like Web1, you just have a static web page, Web2, you have a static webpage with a service, like a server back here, and then Web3, the user can come in and bring their database with them in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that you want data to be portable across apps. So we touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an in-game item for one game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. It also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. But then another thing that happens is I can bring unlimited amount of additional information about myself when I plug in my wallet. And as an example, when I plug into Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enable that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites and I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >> You know, I've always thought about this and always debated it with Dave a lot and my co-host, does top down governance privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation? So what you're getting at here is, "Hey, if you can actually have that solved "(laughing) before it even starts." It was almost as if those services were built for the problem of Web2. >> Yes. >> Not three. >> Right. >> What's your reaction to that? >> I think that is right on the money. And if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots and there have been huge breaches. Like Equifax, you know a few years back is a big one and this all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data, they create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, to be attack. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at Web3. So for those in the audience who have used, a Web3 application, one of these D app, to trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that stored, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on apps or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these defi exchanges, for instance, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the user is actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, "Wow, that's a much better or data model." And that gives so much more control of user 'cause the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. And so I think you're right and like we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see it like if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR and then all the companies are going, "We can't comply with that." They keep postponing it or like changing it a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're going to be in a much better spot. >> And GDPR is again a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. I always said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored and nevermind how they delete someone's entry in a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level they become so complicated. So right on the money there good, good call out. There question for you. Is this then? Okay, so do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is important on the identity side, wallet is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >> Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term and actually work together. So, if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to mattgloud.crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defi trades or whatever. And that doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think we're going to... Still early, so figuring out exactly how the industry is going to shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon and maybe a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging... What you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. And I also think that your financial applications of defi are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. And just a note on this, when you have a wallet that usually has multiple cryptocurrency addresses, so you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. You're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate and we collaborate with several large wallets as well, like blockchain.com and another 30 plus of these to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >> So the wallet basically is a D app, the way you look at it, the integrated. >> Yeah. >> Whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized application with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay. I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm an my own NFT. I mean, how this video's going to be an NFT soon. We get on board with the program here, but how do I log into my app? I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit is there benchmarking? Is there approval process? Is there APIs and SDK kind of thinking around it? How are you thinking about dealing with the apps? >> Yeah, so all of the above. And what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution, but it's consumer based. So what we've done is adapted some SSO protocols that other people have used, the standard ones, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you GET the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are, you know, standard Web2 APIs, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user-controlled NFT. So they're assigning it that with their private public key pair in order to make those updates. So that allows you to connect into both of these systems. We think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. You have an integration of these technologies over time. And we really see these Web3 components and net two domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google off, Facebook off, or you can type in an email address, you could see NFT, Unstoppable Domains or NFT authorization. And you can SSO in to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself, 'cause you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, "Yes, I am a unique individual. "I do live in New York and I just bought a new house." And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. And we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts online for e-commerce specifically in the future because that opens up a whole new market. 'Cause they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information directly to the app. >> I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency, in game end engagement, in game data. And now bringing that to kind of a horizontally scalable like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think that's a huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is you getting any pushback from, ICANN, the International Corporation of Naming and Numbers, they got dot everything now.club, 'cause the clubhouse, they got dot, party.live. I mean the real domain name people are over here, Web2, you guys are coming out with the Web3. Where is that connect for people who are not following along the Web3 trend? How do you rationalize the domain angle here? >> Yeah, well, so I would say that NFT domains are what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago. And they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, 20 to 50 million small businesses who own the majority of these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus. NFT domains, because all of a sudden you have the wallet, you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end users. So instead of being for 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to four billion people who have an internet connection. And so we actually think that the market size for NFT domains is somewhere 50 to a hundred X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for individuals on a day to day basis. So it's like people are going to want you on a use them for receiving cryptocurrency or receiving dollars or payments or USCC coin, where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. And they're not going to want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what Web2 is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are going to want to work with and adopt this new NFT technology, 'cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain names. So like in short, I think NFT domain names are domain names with superpowers. This is the next generation of naming systems. And naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >> Yeah, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean they just can't, they're not built for that. And having people, having their own names, is essentially what decentralization is all about. 'Cause we, what is a company? It's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place, they're decentralized. So then you decentralize the identity and everything's been changed. So completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. You pretty much laid out what's next for Web3, but you guys are in this state of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common use case for folks who are putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see, what's the progression? >> Yeah, so the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately, is we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to 100% year over year. So first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it, if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. And then we want to make it easier for all those people to send crypto back and forth. And I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like... I would say utility focused tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. And that's the really the first step for NFT domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFT domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network top down where you're like a government or corporation, you say, oh, you have to have ID, here's your password, you have to have it. We're going to do it, bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet and up to you domain name, it's going to give them some utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. And we're going to say, "Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile?" Yes. Okay, great. You just attach that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes, Instagram? Yes, TikTok, yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay, yeah, we can attach that back. And then what happens is you end up building up organically digital identifiers for people using these blockchain naming systems. And once they have that, they're going to just... They're going to be able to share that information and that's going to lead to better experiences online for both commerce, but also just better user experiences in general. >> Every company when they web came along first, everyone pro proved the web once. Oh, it's terrible. A bad idea. Oh, it's so, unreliable, so slow. Hard to find things. Web2, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these premalinks became so long, the webpage address fully qualified, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit ceiling. Here, everyone gets their NFT, they start doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. So we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink, permanent. >> Yeah. >> Excellent. >> Yes indeed. I mean, if we're lucky it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >> And the gas prices thing that's always come out always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain's perfect for this 'cause it's, imitable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >> Well, so a couple comments on efficiency. First of all, we picked domains as first product to market. 'Cause you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple times per year. So, the usage for that to set this up and configure it, most people set it up and configure it and then they only have a few changes per year. First of all, the overall you, it's not like a game. >> An IO problem. >> Right, right, right. So that part's good. So we picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking, are computer systems going to get more efficient over time? And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. And I remember the 90s, I had a modem and it was 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56 and then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. And I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time and there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. And you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you would try to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would've had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah, some applications are going to be wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >> Yeah, the motivated parties for innovations here, I mean a point cast failed miserably that was like, they tried to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds, double, triple in homes right now. Matt, congratulations, great stuff. Final, TikTok moment here. How would you summarize in a short clip, the difference between digital identity and Web2 and Web3. >> In Web2, you don't get to own your own online presidence, and in Web3 you do get to own it. So I think if you were going to simplify it, really Web3 is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >> So now users are in charge. >> Exactly, you got it. >> They're not the product anymore. If you got to be the product you might as well monetize the product, and that's the data. Real quick thoughts just to close out the roll of data and all this, your view. >> We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with their users. >> Awesome stuff, Matt, take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What are you guys looking for for hiring, fundraising? Give a quick commercial for what's going on Unstoppable Domains. >> Yeah, so if you haven't already, check us out at unstoppabledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at Unstoppable web. And we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And we are just crossed a hundred people. We're growing, three to five hundred percent year over year. We're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into Web3, even if you're coming from a traditional to background, please reach out. We love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >> And you're a virtual company. You have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >> Yeah, I actually just assumed we are 100% remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet in mostly concentrated in the US and the EU areas. >> I heard a rumor too. Maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >> This is true. And that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. But we also know that recovery is an important part of any organization. So if you push too hard, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. And so we want people to be with us long term, and we do think that this is a 10 year move. And so yeah, do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you- >> That's what I was going to ask you. So what's the consequence of, I don't take vacation. >> Yeah, we literally unplug you. (both laughing) >> You won't be able to get into slack. Right, and that's (indistinct). >> Well, when people start having their avatars be their bought and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFT saying that that's not the real person, it's not the real human. >> Yeah, exactly. We'll be able to check. >> NFT is great innovation, great use case, Matt congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with theCUBE. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, John had a wonderful time. >> All right, this is theCUBE Unstoppable Domains showcasing. We've got 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes. Special showcase with unstoppable domains. I'm John furrier, your host of the cube here in Palo Alto, California and Matt Gould, who is the founder and CEO of unstoppable domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company on stumbled domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >>Thank you. Happy to be here. So >>Love, first of all, love the story you got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big web three wave, which we know where that leads into. Metaverse unlimited new ways. People are consuming information, content applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with web three. So this is kind of the what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >>Yeah. Well, I would say it's a torrent of change and the get unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have a digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items. Do you see it from, you know, gaming and Fortnite and skins and Warcraft and all these other places, but this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend a whole lot more, uh, applications for money, which everyone's familiar with, uh, to, uh, NFT projects, uh, like boarding school. >>You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pot. I think you're on a 117 episodes now and growing, you guys do a deep dive. So people watching check out the unstoppable podcast, but in the last podcast, man, you mentioned, you know, some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet. Um, but IP was, was generated by the United States department of commerce and R and D that became the internet. The internet became the web back then it was just get some webpages up and find what you're looking for. Right. Very analog compared to what's. Now, today, now you mentioned gaming, you mentioned, uh, how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about in the queue for many, many years now, but it's actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding and groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. >>This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >>Yeah, well, I think, uh, it just goes back to the shift of peoples, where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much, how much of assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset, uh, compared to, you know, literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen and simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around, uh, cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, uh, ways for you to track the digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into, uh, your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with web three is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application. >>And I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now. As we transitioned from a model in web to where you're on a hosted service, like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, you know, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? So to assist them where it's much more open, you can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you, uh, and you can, you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an in-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game and you can spend it somewhere else. Uh, so the user is now enabled to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot and how applications, uh, serve up to user. So it's going to change their user experiences. For instance, >>The flip, the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying I'm done with being mined and being manipulated by the big Facebooks and the LinkedIns of the world who were using the user. Now, the contract was a free product and you gave it your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or a marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does the digital identity architecture work with unstoppable? How are you guys enabling that? Could you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique in an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together? Can you explain? >>Yeah. So, uh, we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, uh, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle. When you log on, uh, you know, Instagram, you have an Instagram handle, it's your name, right? You have that name that's that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a hundred percent of their followers, right? And theirs. And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers who are, today's small businesses who build up these large, you know, profitable, small businesses online, uh, you know, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. >>Uh, and then they could be D platform, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform. If that platform raised their fees, you've seen several platforms, increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed. Right. Uh, so we just said, you know what, the first thing you're going to want to own that this is going to be your piece of digital property. It's going to be your name across these applications. And if you look at every computer network in the history of computing networks, the end up with a naming system, and when we've looked back at DDA desk, which came out in the nineties, uh, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier, you know, instead of mapping these IP addresses. Uh, and then we said to ourselves, you know, uh, what's going to happen in the future is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their web two world in order to, uh, identify themselves as they log into all these applications. >>They're going to have an NFT domain in the web three world in order to authenticate and, and, uh, bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. Um, and the bigger breakthrough here is at NMT domain systems or these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users to build on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them. And that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging web three metaverse. Uh, and we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people, you know, with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're gonna need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of, you know, these long IP addresses or a hex addresses in the case of Porto. >>So people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name, verification, you see link trees everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app and it doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people kind of trying to figure it out. I mean, you've got to get up, Angela got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >>Yeah. And, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app, you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency. And then the first time you try to send it, there's this, there's this field where you want to send it. And it's this very long text address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's, it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the DNS system replace IP addresses in Ft domains, uh, on blockchain systems, replace hex addresses for sending and receiving, you know, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just, instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you can have an error or you can send it to the wrong place. It's pretty scary. You could send it to John furrier dot, uh, NFT. And uh, so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing. It worked with the.com domains. And this is the same thing for the coin and other >>Crypto. It's interesting to look at the web two or trend one to two web one went to two. It was all about user ease of use, right? And making things simpler. Clutter, you have more pages. You can't find things that was search that was Google since then. Has there actually been an advancement? Facebook certainly is not an advancement. They're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of, you know, a free search to all the resources in the world, to which, by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that web three crossover. So take us through your vision on digital identity on web to Google searching, Facebook's broken democracy is broken users. Aren't in charge to web three. >>Got it. Well, we can start at web one. So the way that I think about it is if you go to web one, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it. Right. Uh, and then what happened with web two was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about web two, these are all, you know, these are websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or search engine or whatever. And then as we moved to web three, the new thing that's happening here is the user is coming on to that experience. And they're able to connect in their wallet or their web three identity, uh, to that app and they can bring their data to the party. >>So it's kind of like web one, you just have a static web page whip, two, you have a static web page with a service, like a server back here. And then with three, the user can come in and bring their database with them, uh, in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that the, you want data to be portable across apps. So we've touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an end game item for one, a game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. Uh, it also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. >>Uh, but then another thing that happens is I can bring in from, you know, an unlimited amount of additional information about myself. When I plug in my wallet, uh, as an example, when I plug in to Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enabled that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites. And I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >>I always thought about this and I always debated it with David laundry. My cohost does top down governance, privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation. So what you're getting at here is, Hey, if you can actually have that solved before it even starts, it was almost as if those services were built for the problem of web two. Yes, not three. Write your reaction to that. >>I think that is, uh, right on the money. And, uh, if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots. And there have been huge, uh, breaches like Equifax, you know, a few years back is a big one and just all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your, uh, credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data. They create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not, billions, to be attacked. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at web three. >>So for those of the audience who have used the web three application, one of these depths, um, you know, trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect to your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you, you know, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that storage, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on depths or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these DFI exchanges, for instance, uh, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the users actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, wow, that's a much better data model. And that give so much more control of user because the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. Um, and so I think you're right. And like, we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see, like, if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR. And then all the companies are going, we can't comply with that and they keep postponing it or like changing a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're gonna be in a much better spot. >>The GDPR is again, a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. Oh, I said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored. Nevermind how they delete someone's entering a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level it becomes so complicated. So right on the money are good. Good call out there. Question for you. Is this then? Okay. So do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together? Uh, and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is super important on the identity side while it, is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >>Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. Right. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term, uh, and they actually work together. So, you know, like if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to, you know, method, rules dot crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defy trades or whatever. And doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to, uh, you know, sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. >>And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think there's, we're gonna still early. So figuring out exactly how the industry is gonna shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon. And it may be a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging, uh, what you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. Uh, and I also think that your financial applications of defy are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. Um, and just to, you know, a note on this, when you have a wallet, it usually has multiple cryptocurrency address. So you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. Uh, you're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate. And we collaborate with several large wallets as well, uh, like blockchain.com, uh, and you know, another 30 plus of these, uh, to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >>So the wallet, basically as a D app, the way you look at it, you integrate whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized applications with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay, I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm in my own NFT. I mean, hell, this video is going to be an NFT. Soon. We get on board with the program here. Uh, but I do, I log into my app, I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit, is there benchmarking, is there approval process? Is there API APIs and a SDK kind of thinking around it? How do you thinking about dealing with the apps? >>Yeah, so all of the above and what we're trying to, what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution. Uh, but that it's consumer based. So, uh, what we've done is adapted some SSL protocols that other people have used the standard ones, uh, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you keep the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are standard web to API APIs. Uh, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user controlled in FTE. So they're assigning that with their private public key pair order to make those updates. Um, so that, that allows you to connect into both of these systems. Uh, we think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. >>You have an integration of these technologies over time. Uh, and we really see these three components in MTU domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google or Facebook, or you can type in an email address, you can see not ensemble domains or NFT, uh, authorization, and you can SSO in with that, to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself because you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, yes, I am a unique individual. I do live in New York, uh, and I just bought a new house. Right. And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. Um, and we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts, um, online for e-commerce specifically, uh, in the future, because that opens up a whole new market because they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information. >>Yeah. I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency in game to engagement in game data. And now bringing that, so kind of a horizontally scalable, like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think you're, that's huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is, um, you getting any pushback from ICANN, the international corporates have name and numbers. They got dot everything now.club, cause the clubhouse, they got dot, you know, party.live. I mean, so the real domain name people are over here, web too. You guys are coming out with the web three where's that connect for people who are not following along the web three trend. How do they, how do you rationalize the, the domain angle here? >>Yeah, well, uh, so I would say that NFTE domains or what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago and they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being the business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, uh, who, uh, own the majority of these, uh, these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus NFTE domains because all of a sudden you have the, uh, the Walton, if you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end-users. So, and instead of being for, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to 4 billion people who have an internet connection. >>Uh, and so we actually think that the market size we're in a few domains and somewhere 50 to 100 X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for, uh, individuals on a day-to-day basis. So it's like people are gonna want you on to use them for receiving cryptocurrency versus receiving dollars or payments or USCC point where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. Uh, and they're not gonna want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what web is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are gonna want to work with and adopt this new NFC technology. Cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain next. So like in short, I think NMT domain names or domain names with superpowers, this is the next generation of, uh, naming systems and naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >>Yeah. They hit a car, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean, they just can't, they're not built for that. Right. So I mean, and, and having people, having their own names is essentially what decentralization is all about. Cause what does a company, it's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place they're decentralized. So, and then you decentralize the identity and everything's can been changed so completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. Um, you pretty much laid out what's next for web three, but you guys are in this state of, of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the, what are the, um, best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common, uh, use case for folks we're putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see what's the progression? >>Yeah. So the, the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately is, uh, we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I, and I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to a hundred percent year over year. So, uh, first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. Uh, and then we want to make it easier for all those people to sit encrypted back and forth. And I, and I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like, you know, I would say utility focused, uh, tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for, you know, transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. >>Uh, and that's the really the first step freight FTE domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFTE domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, um, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network, top-down where you're like a government or a corporation say, oh, you have to have ID. Here's your password. You have to have it. We're going to do a bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet, NFTE domain name, it's going to give them to the utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. They're going to say, Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile? Yes. Okay, great. You test that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes. Instagram. Yes. Tik TOK. Yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay. Yeah, we can attach that back. Uh, and then what happens is you end up building up organically, uh, digital identifiers for people using these blockchain, uh, naming systems. And once they have that, they're gonna just, they're going to be able to share that information. Uh, and that's gonna lead to better experiences online for, uh, both commerce, but also just better user experiences. >>You know, every company when they web came along, first of all, everyone, poo-pooed the web ones. That was terrible, bad idea. Oh. And so unreliable. So slow, hard to find things. Web two, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these permalinks became so long. The web page address fully qualified, you know, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit a ceiling here. Everyone gets their NFT. They, they started doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. Um, so we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink permanent. Yeah. >>Yes. I mean, if we're lucky, it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity, uh, that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >>And the gas prices thing that's always coming. That's always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain is perfect for this because it's immutable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >>Well, so a couple of comments on efficiency. Uh, first of all, we picked domains as a first product to market because, you know, as you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do, uh, and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. Right? So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple of times per year. So, so the usage for that to set this up and configure it, you know, most people set up and configure it and then it'll have a few changes for years. First of all, the overall it's not like a game problem. Right, right, right. So, so that, that part's good. We picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking our computer, system's going to get more efficient over time. >>And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. Uh, and you know, I remember the nineties, I had a modem and it was, you know, whatever, 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56, then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. Uh, and I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time. And you know, there's, there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. Uh, and you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you had tried to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would have had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah. Some applications are going to wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >>Yeah. The motivated parties for innovations here, I mean, a point cast failed miserably that was like the, they try to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds double, triple on homes right now, Matt. Congratulations. Great stuff. Final tick, tock moment here. How would you summarize short in a short clip? The difference between digital identity in web two and web three, >>Uh, in, in web too, you don't get to own your own online presidents and in web three, you do get to own it. So I think if you were gonna simplify it really web three is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >>So now users are in charge. >>Exactly. >>They're not the product anymore. Going to be the product might as well monetize the product. And that's the data. Um, real quick thoughts just to close out the role of data in all this, your view. >>We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with >>Awesome stuff, man, I take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What do you guys looking for for hiring, um, fundraising, give a quick, a quick commercial for what's going on, on unstoppable domains. Yeah. >>So if you haven't already check us out@ensembledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at unstoppable web, and we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And, uh, we are just crossed a hundred people. We've, we're growing, you know, three to five, a hundred percent year over year. Uh, we're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into web three, even if you're coming from a traditional web two background, please reach out. Uh, we love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >>And you're a virtual company. Do you have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >>Yeah, I actually just assumed we were a hundred percent remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet. Uh, mostly concentrated in the U S and EU areas, >>Rumor to maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >>Uh, this is true. Uh, and that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. And, but we also know that recovery is an important part of any organizations. So if you push too hard, uh, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. Uh, and so we want people to be with us term. Uh, we do think that this is a ten-year move. And so yeah. Do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you have >>To ask me, so what's the consequence of, I don't think vacation. >>Yeah. We literally unplug it. You won't be able to get it. You won't be able to get into slack. Right. And that's a, that's how we regulate. >>Well, when people start having their avatars be their bot and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFD saying that that's not the real person. It's not the real human And FTS. Great innovation, great use case, Matt. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with the cube. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >>John had a wonderful time. All right. Just the >>Cube unstoppable domains showcasing. We got great 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage on John furrier with cube. Thanks for watching.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> When Facebook changed its name to Meta last fall, it catalyzed a chain reaction throughout the tech industry. Software firms, gaming companies, chip makers, device manufacturers, and others have joined in hype machine. Now, it's easy to dismiss the metaverse as futuristic hyperbole, but do we really believe that tapping on a smartphone, or staring at a screen, or two-dimensional Zoom meetings are the future of how we work, play, and communicate? As the internet itself proved to be larger than we ever imagined, it's very possible, and even quite likely that the combination of massive processing power, cheap storage, AI, blockchains, crypto, sensors, AR, VR, brain interfaces, and other emerging technologies will combine to create new and unimaginable consumer experiences, and massive wealth for creators of the metaverse. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in cyber expert, hacker gamer, NFT expert, and founder of ORE System, Nick Donarski. Nick, welcome, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, sir, glad to be here. >> Yeah, okay, so today we're going to traverse two parallel paths, one that took Nick from security expert and PenTester to NFTs, tokens, and the metaverse. And we'll simultaneously explore the complicated world of cybersecurity in the enterprise, and how the blockchain, crypto, and NFTs will provide key underpinnings for digital ownership in the metaverse. We're going to talk a little bit about blockchain, and crypto, and get things started there, and some of the realities and misconceptions, and how innovations in those worlds have led to the NFT craze. We'll look at what's really going on in NFTs and why they're important as both a technology and societal trend. Then, we're going to dig into the tech and try to explain why and how blockchain and NFTs are going to lay the foundation for the metaverse. And, finally, who's going to build the metaverse. And how long is it going to take? All right, Nick, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about your background, your career. You started as a hacker at a really, really young age, and then got deep into cyber as a PenTester. You did some pretty crazy stuff. You have some great stories about sneaking into buildings. You weren't just doing it all remote. Tell us about yourself. >> Yeah, so I mean, really, I started a long time ago. My dad was really the foray into technology. I wrote my first program on an Apple IIe in BASIC in 1989. So, I like to say I was born on the internet, if you will. But, yeah, in high school at 16, I incorporated my first company, did just tech support for parents and teachers. And then in 2000 I transitioned really into security and focused there ever since. I joined Rapid7 and after they picked up Medis boy, I joined HP. I was one of their founding members of Shadowlabs and really have been part of the information security and the cyber community all throughout, whether it's training at various different conferences or talking. My biggest thing and my most awesome moments as various things of being broken into, is really when I get to actually work with somebody that's coming up in the industry and who's new and actually has that light bulb moment of really kind of understanding of technology, understanding an idea, or getting it when it comes to that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, and when you think about what's going on in crypto and NFTs and okay, now the metaverse it's you get to see some of the most innovative people. Now I want to first share a little bit of data on enterprise security and maybe Nick get you to comment. We've reported over the past several years on the complexity in the security business and the numerous vendor choices that SecOps Pros face. And this chart really tells that story in the cybersecurity space. It's an X,Y graph. We've shown it many times from the ETR surveys where the vertical axis, it's a measure of spending momentum called net score. And the horizontal axis is market share, which represents each company's presence in the data set, and a couple of points stand out. First, it's really crowded. In that red dotted line that you see there, that's 40%, above that line on the net score axis, marks highly elevated spending momentum. Now, let's just zoom in a bit and I've cut the data by those companies that have more than a hundred responses in the survey. And you can see here on this next chart, it's still very crowded, but a few call-outs are noteworthy. First companies like SentinelOne, Elastic, Tanium, Datadog, Netskope and Darktrace. They were all above that 40% line in the previous chart, but they've fallen off. They still have actually a decent presence in the survey over 60 responses, but under that hundred. And you can see Auth0 now Okta, big $7 billion acquisition. They got the highest net score CrowdStrike's up there, Okta classic they're kind of enterprise business, and Zscaler and others above that line. You see Palo Alto Networks and Microsoft very impressive because they're both big and they're above that elevated spending velocity. So Nick, kind of a long-winded intro, but it was a little bit off topic, but I wanted to start here because this is the life of a SecOps pro. They lack the talent in a capacity to keep bad guys fully at bay. And so they have to keep throwing tooling at the problem, which adds to the complexity and as a PenTester and hacker, this chaos and complexity means cash for the bad guys. Doesn't it? >> Absolutely. You know, the more systems that these organizations find to integrate into the systems, means that there's more components, more dollars and cents as far as the amount of time and the engineers that need to actually be responsible for these tools. There's a lot of reasons that, the more, I guess, hands in the cookie jar, if you will, when it comes to the security architecture, the more links that are, or avenues for attack built into the system. And really one of the biggest things that organizations face is being able to have engineers that are qualified and technical enough to be able to support that architecture as well, 'cause buying it from a vendor and deploying it, putting it onto a shelf is good, but if it's not tuned properly, or if it's not connected properly, that security tool can just hold up more avenues of attack for you. >> Right, okay, thank you. Now, let's get into the meat of the discussion for today and talk a little bit about blockchain and crypto for a bit. I saw sub stack post the other day, and it was ripping Matt Damon for pedaling crypto on TV ads and how crypto is just this big pyramid scheme. And it's all about allowing criminals to be anonymous and it's ransomware and drug trafficking. And yes, there are definitely scams and you got to be careful and lots of dangers out there, but these are common criticisms in the mainstream press, that overlooked the fact by the way that IPO's and specs are just as much of a pyramid scheme. Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be more regulation, there should, but Bitcoin was born out of the 2008 financial crisis, cryptocurrency, and you think about, it's really the confluence of software engineering, cryptography and game theory. And there's some really powerful innovation being created by the blockchain community. Crypto and blockchain are really at the heart of a new decentralized platform being built out. And where today, you got a few, large internet companies. They control the protocols and the platform. Now the aspiration of people like yourself, is to create new value opportunities. And there are many more chances for the little guys and girls to get in on the ground floor and blockchain technology underpins all this. So Nick, what's your take, what are some of the biggest misconceptions around blockchain and crypto? And do you even pair those two in the same context? What are your thoughts? >> So, I mean, really, we like to separate ourselves and say that we are a blockchain company, as opposed to necessarily saying(indistinct) anything like that. We leverage those tools. We leverage cryptocurrencies, we leverage NFTs and those types of things within there, but blockchain is a technology, which is the underlying piece, is something that can be used and utilized in a very large number of different organizations out there. So, cryptocurrency and a lot of that negative context comes with a fear of something new, without having that regulation in place, without having the rules in place. And we were a big proponent of, we want the regulation, right? We want to do right. We want to do it by the rules. We want to do it under the context of, this is what should be done. And we also want to help write those rules as well, because a lot of the lawmakers, a lot of the lobbyists and things, they have a certain aspect or a certain goal of when they're trying to get these things. Our goal is simplicity. We want the ability for the normal average person to be able to interact with crypto, interact with NFTs, interact with the blockchain. And basically by saying, blockchain in quotes, it's very ambiguous 'cause there's many different things that blockchain can be, the easiest way, right? The easiest way to understand blockchain is simply a distributed database. That's really the core of what blockchain is. It's a record keeping mechanism that allows you to reference that. And the beauty of it, is that it's quote unquote immutable. You can't edit that data. So, especially when we're talking about blockchain, being underlying for technologies in the future, things like security, where you have logging, you have keeping, whether you're talking about sales, where you may have to have multiple different locations (indistinct) users from different locations around the globe. It creates a central repository that provides distribution and security in the way that you're ensuring your data, ensuring the validation of where that data exists when it was created. Those types of things that blockchain really is. If you go to the historical, right, the very early on Bitcoin absolutely was made to have a way of not having to deal with the fed. That was the core functionality of the initial crypto. And then you had a lot of the illicit trades, those black markets that jumped onto it because of what it could do. The maturity of the technology though, of where we are now versus say back in 97 is a much different world of blockchain, and there's a much different world of cryptocurrency. You still have to be careful because with any fed, you're still going to have that FUD that goes out there and sells that fear, uncertainty and doubt, which spurs a lot of those types of scams, and a lot of those things that target end users that we face as security professionals today. You still get mailers that go out, looking for people to give their social security number over during tax time. Snail mail is considered a very ancient technology, but it still works. You still get a portion of the population that falls for those tricks, fishing, whatever it might be. It's all about trying to make sure that you have fear about what is that change. And I think that as we move forward, and move into the future, the simpler and the more comfortable these types of technologies become, the easier it is to utilize and indoctrinate normal users, to be able to use these things. >> You know, I want to ask you about that, Nick, because you mentioned immutability, there's a lot of misconceptions about that. I had somebody tell me one time, "Blockchain's Bs," and they say, "Well, oh, hold on a second. They say, oh, they say it's a mutable, but you can hack Coinbase, whatever it is." So I guess a couple of things, one is that the killer app for blockchain became money. And so we learned a lot through that. And you had Bitcoin and it really wasn't programmable through its interface. And then Ethereum comes out. I know, you know a lot about Ether and you have solidity, which is a lot simpler, but it ain't JavaScript, which is ubiquitous. And so now you have a lot of potential for the initial ICO's and probably still the ones today, the white papers, a lot of security flaws in there. I'm sure you can talk to that, but maybe you can help square that circle about immutability and security. I've mentioned game theory before, it's harder to hack Bitcoin and the Bitcoin blockchain than it is to mine. So that's why people mine, but maybe you could add some context to that. >> Yeah, you know it goes to just about any technology out there. Now, when you're talking about blockchain specifically, the majority of the attacks happen with the applications and the smart contracts that are actually running on the blockchain, as opposed to necessarily the blockchain itself. And like you said, the impact for whether that's loss of revenue or loss of tokens or whatever it is, in most cases that results from something that was a phishing attack, you gave up your credentials, somebody said, paste your private key in here, and you win a cookie or whatever it might be, but those are still the fundamental pieces. When you're talking about various different networks out there, depending on the blockchain, depends on how much the overall security really is. The more distributed it is, and the more stable it is as the network goes, the better or the more stable any of the code is going to be. The underlying architecture of any system is the key to success when it comes to the overall security. So the blockchain itself is immutable, in the case that the owner are ones have to be trusted. If you look at distributed networks, something like Ethereum or Bitcoin, where you have those proof of work systems, that disperses that information at a much more remote location, So the more disperse that information is, the less likely it is to be able to be impacted by one small instance. If you look at like the DAO Hack, or if you look at a lot of the other vulnerabilities that exist on the blockchain, it's more about the code. And like you said, solidity being as new as it is, it's not JavaScript. The industry is very early and very infantile, as far as the developers that are skilled in doing this. And with that just comes the inexperience and the lack of information that you don't learn until JavaScript is 10 or 12 years old. >> And the last thing I'll say about this topic, and we'll move on to NFTs, but NFTs relate is that, again, I said earlier that the big internet giants have pretty much co-opted the platform. You know, if you wanted to invest in Linux in the early days, there was no way to do that. You maybe have to wait until red hat came up with its IPO and there's your pyramid scheme folks. But with crypto it, which is again, as Nick was explaining underpinning is the blockchain, you can actually participate in early projects. Now you got to be careful 'cause there are a lot of scams and many of them are going to blow out if not most of them, but there are some, gems out there, because as Nick was describing, you've got this decentralized platform that causes scaling issues or performance issues, and people are solving those problems, essentially building out a new internet. But I want to get into NFTs, because it's sort of the next big thing here before we get into the metaverse, what Nick, why should people pay attention to NFTs? Why do they matter? Are they really an important trend? And what are the societal and technological impacts that you see in this space? >> Yeah, I mean, NFTs are a very new technology and ultimately it's just another entry on the blockchain. It's just another piece of data in the database. But how it's leveraged in the grand scheme of how we, as users see it, it can be the classic idea of an NFT is just the art, or as good as the poster on your wall. But in the case of some of the new applications, is where are you actually get that utility function. Now, in the case of say video games, video games and gamers in general, already utilize digital items. They already utilize digital points. As in the case of like Call of Duty points, those are just different versions of digital currencies. You know, World of Warcraft Gold, I like to affectionately say, was the very first cryptocurrency. There was a Harvard course taught on the economy of WOW, there was a black market where you could trade your end game gold for Fiat currencies. And there's even places around the world that you can purchase real world items and stay at hotels for World of Warcraft Gold. So the adoption of blockchain just simply gives a more stable and a more diverse technology for those same types of systems. You're going to see that carry over into shipping and logistics, where you need to have data that is single repository for being able to have multiple locations, multiple shippers from multiple global efforts out there that need to have access to that data. But in the current context, it's either sitting on a shipping log, it's sitting on somebody's desk. All of those types of paper transactions can be leveraged as NFTs on the blockchain. It's just simply that representation. And once you break the idea of this is just a piece of art, or this is a cryptocurrency, you get into a world where you can apply that NFT technology to a lot more things than I think most people think of today. >> Yeah, and of course you mentioned art a couple of times when people sold as digital art for whatever, it was 60, 65 million, 69 million, that caught a lot of people's attention, but you're seeing, I mean, there's virtually infinite number of applications for this. One of the Washington wizards, tokenized portions of his contract, maybe he was creating a new bond, that's really interesting use cases and opportunities, and that kind of segues into the latest, hot topic, which is the metaverse. And you've said yourself that blockchain and NFTs are the foundation of the metaverse, they're foundational elements. So first, what is the metaverse to you and where do blockchain and NFTs, fit in? >> Sure, so, I mean, I affectionately refer to the metaverse just a VR and essentially, we've been playing virtual reality games and all the rest for a long time. And VR has really kind of been out there for a long time. So most people's interpretation or idea of what the metaverse is, is a virtual reality version of yourself and this right, that idea of once it becomes yourself, is where things like NFT items, where blockchain and digital currencies are going to come in, because if you have a manufacturer, so you take on an organization like Nike, and they want to put their shoes into the metaverse because we, as humans, want to individualize ourselves. We go out and we want to have that one of one shoe or that, t-shirt or whatever it is, we're going to want to represent that same type of individuality in our virtual self. So NFTs, crypto and all of those digital currencies, like I was saying that we've known as gamers are going to play that very similar role inside of the metaverse. >> Yeah. Okay. So basically you're going to take your physical world into the metaverse. You're going to be able to, as you just mentioned, acquire things- I loved your WOW example. And so let's stay on this for a bit, if we may, of course, Facebook spawned a lot of speculation and discussion about the concept of the metaverse and really, as you pointed out, it's not new. You talked about why second life, really started in 2003, and it's still around today. It's small, I read recently, it's creators coming back into the company and books were written in the early 90s that used the term metaverse. But Nick, talk about how you see this evolving, what role you hope to play with your company and your community in the future, and who builds the metaverse, when is it going to be here? >> Yeah, so, I mean, right now, and we actually just got back from CES last week. And the Metaverse is a very big buzzword. You're going to see a lot of integration of what people are calling, quote unquote, the metaverse. And there was organizations that were showing virtual office space, virtual malls, virtual concerts, and those types of experiences. And the one thing right now that I don't think that a lot of organizations have grasp is how to make one metaverse. There's no real player one, if you will always this yet, There's a lot of organizations that are creating their version of the metaverse, which then again, just like every other software and game vendor out there has their version of cryptocurrency and their version of NFTs. You're going to see it start to pop up, especially as Oculus is going to come down in price, especially as you get new technologies, like some of the VR glasses that look more augmented reality and look more like regular glasses that you're wearing, things like that, the easier that those technologies become as in adopting into our normal lifestyle, as far as like looks and feels, the faster that stuff's going to actually come out to the world. But when it comes to like, what we're doing is we believe that the metaverse should actually span multiple different blockchains, multiple different segments, if you will. So what ORE system is doing, is we're actually building the underlying architecture and technologies for developers to bring their metaverse too. You can leverage the ORE Systems NFTs, where we like to call our utility NFTs as an in-game item in one game, or you can take it over and it could be a t-shirt in another game. The ability for having that cross support within the ecosystem is what really no one has grasp on yet. Most of the organizations out there are using a very classic business model. Get the user in the game, make them spend their money in the game, make all their game stuff as only good in their game. And that's where the developer has you, they have you in their bubble. Our goal, and what we like to affectionately say is, we want to bring white collar tools and technology to blue collar folks, We want to make it simple. We want to make it off the shelf, and we want to make it a less cost prohibitive, faster, and cheaper to actually get out to all the users. We do it by supporting the technology. That's our angle. If you support the technology and you support the platform, you can build a community that will build all of the metaverse around them. >> Well, and so this is interesting because, if you think about some of the big names, we've Microsoft is talking about it, obviously we mentioned Facebook. They have essentially walled gardens. Now, yeah, okay, I could take Tik Tok and pump it into Instagram is fine, but they're really siloed off. And what you're saying is in the metaverse, you should be able to buy a pair of sneakers in one location and then bring it to another one. >> Absolutely, that's exactly it. >> And so my original kind of investment in attractiveness, if you will, to crypto, was that, the little guy can get an early, but I worry that some of these walled gardens, these big internet giants are going to try to co-op this. So I think what you're doing is right on, and I think it's aligned with the objectives of consumers and the users who don't want to be forced in to a pen. They want to be able to live freely. And that's really what you're trying to do. >> That's exactly it. You know, when you buy an item, say a Skin in Fortnite or Skin in Call of Duty, it's only good in that game. And not even in the franchise, it's only good in that version of the game. In the case of what we want to do is, you can not only have that carry over and your character. So say you buy a really cool shirt, and you've got that in your Call of Duty or in our case, we're really Osiris Protocol, which is our proof of concept video game to show that this all thing actually works, but you can actually go in and you can get a gun in Osiris Protocol. And if we release, Osiris Protocol two, you'll be able to take that to Osiris Protocol two. Now the benefit of that is, is you're going to be the only one in the next version with that item, if you haven't sold it or traded it or whatever else. So we don't lock you into a game. We don't lock you into a specific application. You own that, you can trade that freely with other users. You can sell that on the open market. We're embracing what used to be considered the black market. I don't understand why a lot of video games, we're always against the skins and mods and all the rest. For me as a gamer and coming up, through the many, many years of various different Call of Duties and everything in my time, I wish I could still have some this year. I still have a World of Warcraft account. I wasn't on, Vanilla, Burning Crusade was my foray, but I still have a character. If you look at it that way, if I had that wild character and that gear was NFTs, in theory, I could actually pass that onto my kid who could carry on that character. And it would actually increase in value because they're NFT back then. And then if needed, you could trade those on the open market and all the rest. It just makes gaming a much different thing. >> I love it. All right, Nick, hey, we're out of time, but I got to say, Nick Donarski, thanks so much for coming on the program today, sharing your insights and really good luck to you and building out your technology platform and your community. >> Thank you, sir, it's been an absolute pleasure. >> And thank you for watching. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast", and you'll find them. I publish pretty much every week on siliconangle.com and wikibond.com. And you can reach me @dvellante on Twitter or comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can always email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget, check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR, happy 2022 be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube covering Fortinet security summit brought to you by Fortinet. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of 40 net championship security summit from beautiful Napa valley. Lisa Martin here with John farrier, John, and has been phenomenal to do an event in person outdoors and Napa valley. >>You're so bright. We have to wear shades. It's been sunny and it's been hot. It's been great. It's been a great, it's been a great day. I mean, I think Fordanet stepping up to that sponsorship for the PGA is a bold move they're doing well on the business front. They're expanding it. It's good for their customers. It's a new, bold marketing step. Affordanet honestly, they're doing extremely well on the business front. As I mentioned, they got a lot of cash coming in. They got happy customers and they're all here. And golf is a great environment for tech buyers. We know that. So it's great to have the cube on the sports circuit and, uh, we'll be doing more of them. It's it's awesome. >>Good. I, it is great to be on this sport circuit. One of the things that I talked with several folks about today, John Madison being one that CEO, CFO, COO, and then Kenzie, the CEO of Fordanet about the cultural synergies between the PGA and Ford nine. It was really nice to hear how both of these companies, both of these organizations are so invested in things like women in technology and steam and stem programs, and they really align on those two cultures. >>Yeah, there's a, it's a, it's a, it's a culture fit. I mean, they basically, it's a winning formula. Look at Ford and net. Um, you know, and having that kind of representation is good. They, they have a great reputation put in. It does PGA does as well and it's quality, right? So people like, like quality and they want to line that. So it's a great business move for Fordanet to, uh, to do the, uh, the golf sponsorship, uh, multiple years. I think it's six years, five or six years, they get they're doing this. Um, it's phenomenal. I think they're going to Fortnite is going to turn into a marketing powerhouse. I think you're going to start to see John Madison and the team, uh, really gin up some nice new things, because you can do a lot with the PGA. Again, this foundations is charities, again, a lot of causes that are involved in, in fundraising around the PGA and you got the tour players and honestly the tech scene. So I think tech and sports has always been something that I've loved. And I think, you know, we'd love to come and bring our sets here and having the cube here is just a really fun kind of winning formula as well. We'd love it. And we, and we wish we could eat it for more days this year. I think we will, but this has been so much, >>It has been so much fun. There's been about over 300 customers and partners here. Fortnite is a, is a hundred percent partner driven organization. Lot of innovation being discussed the last eight hours or so, but one of the things that you definitely feel is the strength in their partner, community and Fortinets commitment to it. Also something that really impresses me is their commitment to helping to fill the cybersecurity skills gap. This is a gap that has been growing for the last five years. They last week announced a pledge to train 1 million people in the next five years to help shorten that gap. And as we know that the threat landscape is only continuing to expand. So the great combination there, >>And it's a, cause that's a good business logic behind it because there's a of negative unemployment. They need more people to do cybersecurity careers, but also you mentioned women in tech, you know, a lot of that's a big movement too. You start to see a much more women in tech scene here. We had, uh, Merritt bear on principal office of the CSO at Amazon web services on she's amazing. She's wearing the Amazon Krypto shirts. That was a home run, love that interview, but you started to see them afford a net with the whole scene. Here is they're taking their message directly to their customers and they're including their customers. So the magic of this formula that they have with the PGA and this whole program is they don't have live concert series. They got a pavilion here with all their top partners, with customers that doing a summit behind us with their top marquee customers. And they're telling the story direct and you're going, I think you need to shift to see Fordanet really do more of that. What we love in the key, which is take that direct to, to media model, to their customers and contents data. We had great conversations here. I mean, that's all you, you know, viewing the, uh, head VP SVP of at and T cybersecurity, uh, amazing, uh, uh, candidate there's great cube guests. And he was just traveling some serious wisdom. So great guests all along. Fantastic. >>Well, it's, it's been an inspiring day. It's nice that 40 minute has taken the step to do an in-person event. Obviously they did it extremely safely. We were outdoors, but people are, I think a lot of people and I'm speaking for myself, for sure, ready for this to come back and meet the threat landscape that changes that that 40 net has seen in the last 18 months are phenomenal. The growth in ransomware, nearly 11 X in a year. And you had this massive shift to work from home. And now they're talking about how they're partnering with links us, for example, to help enterprises, to really make that remote work environment far more secure, faster, and optimize for the worker. Who's on video conferencing, communication tools. All the kids at home gaming are probably going to be pretty bummed about this, but it really shows coordinates commitment to this. There's a lot of permanence to what we're seeing here in this model. >>I know you and I have done ton of interviews together and, uh, with great guests around cybersecurity and the phrase always comes up and over the past decade, there's there is no more perimeter here. You couldn't, you couldn't, it was louder than ever here because now you have so much going on connected devices. The future of work is at home with the virtual, uh, issues with the pandemic. And now with the Delta variant, uh, continuing at forward, it's a reality, we're in a hybrid world and, um, everything's going hybrid. And I think that's a new thing for companies to operationalize. So they got, there's no playbook. So there is a security playbook. And what these guys are doing is building an ecosystem to build product that people can wrap services around and to solve the key security problems. And that's that, that to me is a good business model. And the SAS is, again, you're seeing everyone go SAS. They want to go SAS product, or, you know, uh, some sort of business models involved in cloud. So cloud security, SAS all kind of rolled up. It's really kinda interesting trend. >>Yeah. We've talked about a whole bunch of trends today. One of them is just one of the marketing terms I've been using and I don't like to use it, but around for years as a future ready people, tech companies always describing solutions and technologies and products is future ready? Well, what does that really mean? Well, when the pandemic struck, none of us were future ready, but what we did hear and see and feel today from 40 net and their partners is how much acceleration they've done. So that going forward, we are going to be future ready for situations that arise like in this challenging cybersecurity landscape that businesses in every industry can prepare for. >>I think, I think the talks here in the cyber security summit behind us, it's interesting. Uh, Tufin one of their customers on a lot of the talks were the same thing, talking about the cultural shift, the cultural shift and security departments has to become more agile. And so that is a big untold story right now is that security departments. Aren't well-liked, they slow things down. I mean, you know, app review everything's gotta be looked at and it takes weeks. That is not good for developers. So app developers in the cloud, they want minutes, you know, shift left is something that we talk about all the time in our events with the developers dev ops movement is putting pressure on the security teams, culturally, who moves first. You don't go faster. You're going to be replaced, but you can't replace a security team. So I find that whole security cloud team dynamic, real organizational challenges. That's something I'm going to look into is one of my key takeaways from this this week. Yeah. >>A huge organizational change. And with that comes, you know, obviously different cultures with these organizations, but at the same time, there really is no more choice. They have to be working together. And as Kenzie and I were talking about, you know, security is no longer an ITP, this is a board level initiative and discussion businesses in every industry, whether it's a retailer or PGA tour have to be prepared. >>Yeah. I mean, I'm a security Hawk. I think every company needs to be prepared to take an offensive strike and be ready on the defense. And this is a huge agility and speed cause ransomware, you get taken down, you know, I mean that's business critical issue. You're dead, you're dead in the water. So, so again, this is all part of his quote digital transformation, uh, that everyone's talking about and is a do over, everyone's doing it over and doing it with the cloud. And I remember just recently in 2012, people were saying, oh, the cloud is not secure. It's now some more secure than anything else. So we starting to see that shift so that realities hit everybody. So it's been great. >>What are some of the things that excited you about the conversations that you had today? >>I was pretty impressed by the fact that one was a physical advantage. You mentioned. So, you know, people in personal, I found it refreshing. I think people here, I noticed we're one relieved to be out and about in public and talking on the cube. Um, but I was really impressed with, uh, the guests from Amazon web services. She was a crypto shirt that got me there. But I think this idea that security is not just a guy thing, right? So to me, women in tech was a, was a big conversation. I thought it was very positive this week, um, here and still a lot more work to do, but I think that's, what's cool. And just the talks were great. I mean, it's cutting edge concepts here. And I thought at, and T was great. I thought, uh, Tufin was a great conversation and again, all the guests that were awesome. So what did you think, what was your take? >>Just how much acceleration we've seen in the last year on innovation and partnerships that really jumped out that when, like I said, we talked about future ready and go, wow. So much of the world wasn't future ready a year and a half ago when this came out and all of the innovation and the positivities that have come out of technology companies creating, because we don't have a choice. We have to figure out secure work from home. For example, we know that some amount of it's going to persist hybrid maybe here to stay, to see what 40 net and their partner ecosystem have done in a short time period. Given the fact that you mentioned ransomware and their global threat landscape, I was talking with Derek, nearly X increased in ransomware and just, >>And they've got four to guard. They got all this. I think your interview with Ken, the CEO, I thought it was really compelling. It was one point he said, um, we're making a lot more investments when you asked him a pointed question. And I think that theme comes across really strong in all of our interviews today. And the conversations in the hallway here is that people that are making the investments are doing well. And so there's more investments being made and that's like, people kind of say, oh yeah, we can do this one, but you have to now. And so the other thing that I thought was awesome with John Madison, talking about their strategy around the PGA, it's a bold move, but it's kind of got this mindset of always innovating, but they're not, they go step at a time, so they get better. So I'm, I'm expecting next year to be better than this year, bigger, uh, and more integrated because that's what they do. They make things better. Um, I think that's gonna be fun to watch, but I think that's a bold move for Affordanet to be doing this kind of marketing. It's really, they haven't done that in the, in the past. So I think this is a really bold move. >>I agree. And they've spun this out of their accelerate event, which is an event that we've covered for years in person. So this was the first time that they've pulled the security summit out as its own event. And clearly there was a great buzz behind us all day. Lots of, lots of topics, a lot of discussions, a lot of partnership. And you're right. A lot of talk about investment investment in their partner ecosystem and investment internally. Yes. >>It's fun too. On a personal note, we've been following Fordanet for many, many years. You and I both got doing the interviews and you do and go to the events is watching them grow and be successful. And it's kind of proud though. I, yeah, I'll go for it. And that kind of rooting for him. And I want to thank them for inviting the cube here because we're so psyched to be here and be part of this awesome event. And again, golf, the cube kind of go together, right? Sports, the cubes. We love it. So always fun. So thanks to, for, to net out there for, uh, supporting us and being, being part of the cube. >>Well, you got the gear, you got your Fordanet Gulf t-shirt I got one too. And pink. It's beautiful. Yeah. You got some shades, but we also have some gear here help us in the morning for our next shows. Be caffeinated. Yeah. But no, it's been great. It's been great to be here. Great to hook co-host with you again in person if for 20 months or so, and looking forward to seeing how 49 and how back >>He was back up the vents. Thanks to the crew. Chuck Leonard, every one's era, Brendan. Right. Well done. Fordanet thank you. Thank you for >>John's been great. Thanks for having me up here today. Looking forward to the next time from Napa valley, Lisa Martin, for John farrier, you've been watching the cube

>>From around the globe. It's the cube covering Fortinet security summit brought to you by Fortinet. >>Okay. Welcome back everyone. To the cubes, coverage of Fortinets championship golf tournament, we're here for the cybersecurity summit. David got a great guest, Ruby cutoff CEO, and co-founder of Tufin great to have you on. Thank you for coming on the cube. We were chatting before. Came on. Camera, big talk. You just gave it. Thanks mom. Thanks >>For having me >>Not a bad place here. Golf tournament, golf and cybersecurity, kind of go together. You know, keep the ball in the middle of the fairway. You know, don't let it get out of bounds, you know, >>And it's a beautiful place. So, uh, very happy to be here and be a premier sponsor of the event. >>Congratulations and a good, good to have you on let's get into the cybersecurity. We were talking before we came on camera around how transformation is really hard. We went to the cloud is really hard refactoring. You're just really hard, but security is really, really hard. That's true. So how do you look at how security is perceived in companies? Is there dynamics that are being amplified by the rapid moved movement to the cloud? You seeing apps being developed really fast changes fast. What's the, what's the barometer of the industry right now? Sure, >>Sure. It's interesting. And this hasn't really changed in the past, but we've seen like exacerbated getting worse and worse. I think a lot of companies security is actually seen as a blocker and frankly security is probably the most hated department in the organization because a lot of times, first of all, the security says no, but also they just take their time. So if you think about organizations, enterprises, they run on top of their enterprise applications. They have applications that their own in-house developers are writing, and those developers are changing their apps all the time. They're driving change in it as well. So you end up having dozens of change requests from developers want to open connectivity. You want to go from point a to point B on the network. They open a ticket. It reaches the network security team that ticket might take several days until it's implemented in production. So the level of service that security provides the application teams today is really not very high. So you can really understand why security is not, um, looked upon favorably by the rest of the organization. >>And some organizations. My perception is, is that, you know, the hardcore security teams that have been around for awhile, they've got standards and they're hardcore, a new app comes in, it's gotta be approved. Something's gotta get done. And it's slower, right? It slows people down the perception. It could be slow. How is it changing? Yes, >>So it changing because when you're moving to the cloud and a lot of organizations are adopting the cloud in many ways, private cloud, public cloud hybrid cloud, you know, they're working in cloud native environments and those environments, you know, the developers are, they own the keys to the kingdom, right? They're managing AWS Azure, Google cloud to managing get hub. You know, they got the place to themselves. So they're pushing changes in their apps without asking it for permission. So they're suddenly exposed to this is how fast it can really be. And while anything that they do in the on-prem or sort of traditional applications is still moving very slowly unless they're using an automated approach to policy. So one of the things that I spoke about today is the need for organizations to adopt a policy centric approach. So they need to define a policy of who can talk to whom and what conduct to what across the entire organizational network, whether it's firewalls routers, which is cloud platforms. >>And then once you have that policy, you can start automated based on the policy. So the concept is somebody opens a ticket, a developer wants to make a change. They want a ticket in service. Now remedy that ticket reaches, uh, some system that's going to check for compliance against the policy. If you're able to immediately tell if that change is compliant or not, then you're able to make that split-second decision, which might take an analyst a couple of days, and then you can design the perfect minimal change to implement on the network. That is really agile, right? That's what developers want to see. And a lot of security departments are really struggling with that today. >>Why, why are they? That seems like a no brainer because policy-based innovation has been around in the network layer for many, many years decades. Right? We'll see, makes things go better, faster. Why would they be against it? Where were they? >>Yeah. So they're not really against it. I think it's just the sheer complexity and size of today's networks is nothing compared to where it was 10 years ago. So you have tens to hundreds of firewalls in large enterprises, thousands of routers and switches, load balancers, private cloud SDN, like NSX and ACI public cloud Kubernetes. It's just a plethora of networking. So we're thinking of it as proliferation of networking is getting worse and worse, especially with IOT and now moving to the cloud. So it is just so complex that if you don't have specialized tools, there's absolutely no way they'll, you'll be able to. >>So your talk must so gone over well, because I do a lot of interviews and I hear developers talking about shift left, right? Which is, you know, basically vernacular for do security in the dev CIC D pipelining. So while you're there rather than having to go fix the bugs later, this seems to be a hot trend. People like it, they want it, they want to check it off, get it done, move on this policy-based automation, help them here. >>It does in some ways, I mean, so you need a policy for the cloud as well, but there's a different challenge that I see altogether in the cloud. And one of the challenges that we're saying is that there's actually a political divide. You have network security folks who are managing, you know, firewalls routers, switches, and maybe the hub to the cloud. And then inside the spokes inside the cloud itself, you have a different team, cloud operators, cloud security folks. And those two teams don't really talk to each other. Some companies have set up centers of excellence, where they're trying to bring all the experts together. But most companies, network security, folks who want to understand what's happening inside the cloud are sort of given the Heisman. They're not invited to meetings. Um, and there's lack of which I think is tragic because it's not going to go over well. So there's huge challenges in security in the cloud. And unless these two departments are going to talk to each other and work together, we're not going to get anywhere near the level of security that we need. >>The cloud team, the cloud guys, if you will, you know, quote guys or gals and the security guys and gals, they're not getting along. What's the, what's the, is it historical? Just legacy structures? Is it more of my department? I own the keys to the kingdom. So go through me kind of the vibe, or is it more of just evolution of the, developer's going to say, I'm going to go around you like shadow it, um, created the cloud. Is there like a shadow security, but trend around this? >>Yeah, there is. And I think it stems from what we covered in the beginning, which is, you know, app developers are now used to and trained to fear security. Every change they want on the on-prem network takes a week, right? They're moving to the cloud. Suddenly they're able to roam freely, do things quickly. If network security folks come by and say, oh, we want to take a look at those changes. What they're hearing, the music is all we're going to slow you down. And the last thing cloud guys want to hear is that we're going to slow you down. So they have they're fearfully. You know, they're, they're rightly afraid of what's going to happen. If they enable a very cumbersome and slow process, we got to work differently. Right? So there's new paradigms with dev DevSecOps where security is built into the CIC pipeline, where it doesn't slow down app developers, but enables compliance and visibility into the cloud environments at the same time. Great stuff. >>Great insight. I want to ask you your, one of your things in your top that I found interesting. And I like to have you explain it in more detail is you think security can be an enabler for digital transformation. Digital transformation can kick the wrong yeah. With transforming. Okay. Everyone knows that, but security, how does security become that enabler? >>So, I mean, today security is a, um, as a blocker to digital transformation. I think anybody that claims, Hey, we're on a path to digital transformation. We're automated, we're digitally transformed. And yet you asked the right people and you find out every change takes a week on the network. You're not digitally transformed, right? So if you adopt a, a framework where you're able to make changes in a compliant secure matter and make changes in minutes, instead of days, suddenly you'll be able to provide a level of service to app developers like they're getting in the cloud, that's digital transformation. So I see the network change process as pretty much the last piece of it that has not been digitally transformed yet. >>And this is where a lot of opportunity is. Exactly. All right. So talk about what you guys are doing to solve that problem, because you know, this is a big discussion. Obviously security is on everyone's mind. They're reactive to proactive that buying every tool they can platforms are coming out. You're starting to see a control plane. You're starting to see things like collective intelligence networks forming, uh, what's the solution to all this, >>Right? So what we've developed is a security policy layer that sits on top of all the infrastructure. So we've got, uh, four products in the two for an orchestration suite where we can connect to all the major firewalls, router, switches, cloud platforms, private cloud SDN. So we see the configuration in all those different platforms. We know what's happening on the ground. We build a typology model. That is one of the industry's best apology models that enables us to query and say, okay, from point a to point B, which firewalls, router switches and cloud platforms will you traverse. And then we integrate it with ticketing system, like a remedy or service now, so that the user experiences a developer opens a ticket for a change that ticket gets into Tufin. We check it against the policy that was defined by the security managers, the security manager defined a policy of who can talk to whom and what conducted what across the physical network and the cloud. >>So we can tell within a split second, is this compliant or not? If it's not compliant, we don't waste an engineer's time. We kick it back to the original user. But if it is compliant, we use that typology model to perform network change design. So we design the perfect minimal change to implement an every firewall router switch cloud platform. And then the last mile is we provision that change automatically. So we're able to make a change in minutes, instead of days would dramatically better security and accuracy. So the ROI on Tufin is not just security, but agility balanced with security at the same time. So you like the rules of the road, >>But the roads are changing all the time. That's how do you keep track of what's going on? You must have to have some sort of visualization technology when you lay out the topology and things start to be compliant, and then you might see opportunity to do innovative buckets. Hey, you know, I love this policy, but I'm, I'm going to work on my policy because sure. Got to up your game on policy and continue to iterate. Is that how do they, how do your customers Daniel? >>So listen, we we're, uh, we're not a tiny company anymore. We've grown. We went public in April of 2019 race and capital. We have over 500 employees, we sold over 2000 customers worldwide. So, um, you know, when customers ask us for advice, we come in and help them with consulting or professional services in terms of deployment. And the other piece is we gotta keep up all the time with what's happening with Fortnite. For example, as, as one of our strategic partners, every time fortnight makes the change we're on the beta program. So we know about a code change. We're able to test them the lab we know about their latest features. We got to keep up with all that. So that takes a lot of engineering efforts. We've hired a lot of engineers and we're hiring more. Uh, so it takes a lot of investment to do this at scale. And we're able to deliver that for our customers. >>I want the relationship with 400. I see you're here at the golf tournament. You're part of the pavilion. You're part of the tournament by the way. Congratulations. Great, great, great event. Thank you. What's the relationship with food and air from a product and a customer technology standpoint, >>We're working closely with Fortnite, where they're a strategic partner of ours. We're integrated into their Fordham manager, APIs. We're a fabric ready solution for them. So obviously working closely. Some of our biggest customers are fortnight's biggest customers will get the opportunity to sponsor this event, which is great tons of customers here and very interesting conversations. So we're very happy with that relationship. >>This is good. Yeah. So that ask you, what have you learned? I think you got great business success. Looking back now to where we are today, the speed of the market, what's your big takeaway in terms of how security changed and it continues to be challenging and these opportunities, what was the big takeaway for you? >>Well, I guess if you were like spanning my career, uh, the big takeaway is, uh, first of all, and just in startup world, patients think things come to those away, but also, um, you know, just, you got to have the basics, right? What we do is foundational. And there were times when people didn't believe in what we do or thought, you know, this is minor. This is not important as people move to the cloud, this won't matter. Oh, it matters. It matters not just in on-prem and it matters in the cloud as well. You gotta have a baseline of a policy and you gotta base everything around that. Um, and so w we've sort of had that mantra from day one and we were right. And we're, we're very happy to be where we are today. Yeah. >>And, you know, as a founder, a co-founder of the company, you know, most of the most successful companies I observed is usually misunderstood for a long time. That's true. Jesse's favorite quote on the cube. He's now the CEO of Amazon said we were misunderstood for a long time. I'm surprised it took people this long to figure out what we were doing. And, and that was good. A good thing. So, you know, just having that north star vision, staying true to the problem when there were probably opportunities that you are like, oh, we, you know, pressure or sure. Yeah. I mean, you stayed the course. What was the, what was the key thing? Grit focused. Yes. >>Looking to startup life. It's sorta like being in sales. We, we got told no, a thousand times before we got told yes. Or maybe a hundred times. So, uh, you gotta, you gotta be, um, you got to persevere. You gotta be really confident in what you're doing and, uh, just stay the course. And we felt pretty strongly about what we're building, that the technology was right. That the need of the market was right. And we just stuck to our guns. >>So focus on the future. What's the next five, five years look like, what's your focus? What's the strategic imperative for you guys. What's your, what's your, what do you mean working on? >>So there's several things that on the business side, we're transitioning to a subscription-based model and we're moving into SAS. One of our products is now a SAS based product. So that's very important to us. We also are now undergoing a shift. So we have a new version called Tufin Aurora Tufin Aurora is a transformation. It's our next generation product. Uh, we're rearchitected the entire, uh, underlying infrastructure to be based on microservices so we could be cloud ready. So that's a major focus in terms of engineering, uh, and in terms of customers, you know, we're, we're selling to larger and larger enterprises. And, uh, we think that this policy topic is critical, not just in the on-prem, but in the cloud. So in the next three years, as people move more and more to the cloud, we believe that what we do will be, become even more relevant as organization will straddle on-premise networks and the cloud. So >>Safe to say that you believe that policy based architecture is the key to automation. >>Absolutely. You can't automate what you don't know, and you can't people, like I mentioned this in my talk, people say, oh, I can do this. I can cook up an Ansible script and automate, all right, you'll push a change, but what is the logic? Why did you make that decision? Is it based on something you've got to have a core foundation? And that foundation is the policy >>Really great insight. Great to have you on the cube. You've got great success and working knowledge and you're in the right place. And you're skating to where the puck is and will be, as they say, congratulations on your success. Thank >>You very much. Thanks for having >>Me. Okay. Keep coming here. The Fortinet championship summit day, cybersecurity summit, 40 minutes golf tournament here in Napa valley. I'm John Firmicute. Thanks for watching.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube covering Fortinet security summit brought to you by Fortinet. >>Welcome back to Napa Lisa Martin here at the 40, that championship security summit. I'm pleased to welcome the CEO of links us who joins me next. Harry do Hurst, Harry, welcome to the program. Great to you're here we are in an in-person event. One, which is fantastic. Two we're outdoors, three we're in Napa. >>What's not to love. >>There's nothing, nothing not to love. So you had a session this morning. Talk to me about some of the things that you shared with attendees. >>So the session was, was talking about hybrid work and really the how to make that successful. And, you know, we, as a business have really focused making it, not just work for companies, but for companies to thrive and to really embrace, um, the hybrid work and, and, and extract the Mo the most benefit from it. So we, we spoke about the challenges that, that, that, uh, that has, and some of the solutions to, uh, to solving those challenges. >>Tell me about some of the solutions I'm very familiar with as someone who has been working from home for 18 months, some of the challenges I know, understand it too, from an enterprise security perspective, but what are some of the solutions that links us CS? >>So the solutions are fall into kind of three main categories. The first is of course having the best and latest wireless technologies. So that's wifi six wifi, um, it's of course, needs to be coupled with having a good pipe into your home, or all leveraging 5g and other wireless technologies to have, have great connectivity, then having mesh networking to enable it to be wall-to-wall coverage, seamless roaming between, between all the devices to mean that your, your network infrastructure within the home is very robust. Th th the second kind of pillar of, of, of solution is, is around. Now, you can bring enterprise grade security into the home. Typically it would sit in server cupboards in, in, in, in offices and now, um, with, with us and fortunate, we've created a product which brings that enterprise grade technology for the first time into the, into the home. So it managers no longer have to, um, compromise when it comes to security and they can apply the same policies that they would be doing in an office of 10,000 people to 10,000 offices that are in individual's homes. And, and that's a kind of a first, first world first, I would say, but, um, is going to be critical. And again, it, it, it's about moving from it's good enough to let's make it amazing. Um, and let's not compromise on something as critical as security and safety. >>Absolutely. We know we've spoken a lot with 40 net today and over the last year and a half about the massive changes to the threat landscape, the expansion of it, especially with this pivot, when suddenly there were all of these devices, personal devices on home networks, corporate devices on home networks, it's really changed, not just the threat landscape, but also what enterprises need to do. You guys, you mentioned this new announcement came out yesterday, the Linx has homework solution powered by Fordanet talk to us about that, the Genesis of it, and what we're enterprises can actually get access to this. >>Sure. So, so yeah, this is a product that really it's been a meeting of minds. You know, lynxes, lynxes are a leader and have been a leader since the very beginning of wireless. And, and we are, you know, a leader today. Um, Fortnite of course, we're a leader in enterprise security. So the two combined providing the best in class, uh, home internet experience coupled with, um, the, the security, which can be managed by the business. So when as a, as a, as an end user, as a, as a, as an employee, when I plug in this equipment, it automatically phones home to, to, to, to link LyncSys. And then in turn to force net, we know that it's Harriet LyncSys, that that has been been plugged in. It will spin up a network for me, personally, and my family to use in the home. So the, the benefit to the, to the, to the consumer is that there's a fantastic wifi, six mesh solution throughout their home, which is most likely a significant upgrade on their Verizon equipment or whatever it might be. Um, and it's been spins up a corporate network and that corporate network for all intensive purposes is, is imitating exactly like if you were sitting at your desk in the office, in the corporate office. So it becomes an extension of the corporate network. Um, and as I say, it sits behind, behind the FortiGate. >>Talk to me about the Genesis of the solution. Was it the pandemic, because lynxes has seen the challenges from the consumer centric point of view. Talk to me about really kind of the catalyst for these two powerhouses coming together. >>So it was actually something that we were working on three pandemic and fortunate work. We're, we're, we're also looking at how to support the remote work because remote work is not like totally new, this, this pandemic has rapidly accelerated it, but, um, there was already a market and growing, this has just accelerated it. So both businesses independently of one another, where we're kind of toying with it. So when, when we then kind of came together, it was, it was a no brainer. And there was a kind of light bulb moment. And, and we, we realized that the combined solution with the two businesses and bringing together the expertise from both was really, would be how, how we would succeed. >>Do you see any in the last, I know it was just announced yesterday, but any, any industries in particular that you think are really like low-hanging fruit for this type of technology? >>I mean, I think finance is of course, um, you know, there's the high stakes poker in, in that industry. So, um, same goes for healthcare, um, and, and, and even education. So ones that where security is paramount of, and of course security is paramount everywhere, but those ones in particular, given the nature of, of the, those industries. So, so we really expect to see banking, finance, healthcare, uh, pharma, as, as key verticals that we would, uh, we would expect to be successful. >>Okay, excellent. Well, one of the challenges with the ransomware increases, the 40 net threat landscape report showed it's nearly up 11% in the last 12 months. Of course, we have that rapid pivot to work from home 18 months ago, and ransomware and phishing and, and techniques and social engineering getting so much more sophisticated and personalized. Now you've got someone working from home who probably has a million distractions, kids, spouses, et cetera. So easy to click on a link that for most of it looks very legitimate. So having a solution like this in place is really critical for >>Absolutely. And, and I think, you know, until those vulnerabilities are sealed, you know, the attacks will continue. And this solution is part of the, the, the soul for that. Because as soon as, as soon as these, these holes in the bucket of a tape shut, um, you know, the, the appetite to, to invest time in, in attacks, we'll, we'll, we'll fade, >>Hopefully that's the direction that we need to see it going, right. Not up until the right down. Talk to me about, so you mentioned from the it perspective, I'm looking for the benefits for an enterprise, it organization, centralized visibility, they can see in terms of productivity. I imagine it's much better for the end user, but give me that kind of it business perspective, how does this help them come together? >>So for all intents and purposes, the it manager will see within their, their fortunate, uh, interface, these devices, these links devices in people's homes, just in the same way that they would see 40 gates in their office in New York or their office in Pittsburgh. So, um, you know, it really is this, there were 15,000 people in five offices. There's now 15,000 people in 15,000 offices, and, but they can push and manage an and, and push those security, um, policies seamlessly down to all 15,000. They can categorize them. They can, they can do fall intensive purposes. Those, those employees are sitting in the, in one of their facilities. And, and that's really the, the bar that I believe companies should be holding themselves to because, um, it, it provides security for the company. It provides security for the employee, and of course, then by them being able to connect efficiently and secure securely and with great speed and no interruption, that's good for productivity, which is good for the company's profitability. >>Absolutely. It's all interconnected. And this is tuned for video conferencing. Is that >>Yes. So, so we've actually partnered with, um, both zoom and teams, Microsoft teams to, um, we've done an integration with them whereby we're able to identify and optimize that traffic within the network. So, so that adds an added benefit to, to users of those services. And we'll, we'll, we'll be rolling out further, um, partnerships with other key, um, utilities that enable that to optimization to, to, to help it be streamlined. >>So prioritize zoom and teams for the parents kick the kids >>Off. I mean, we've all experienced. The apple TV gets fired up, zoom goes down or, or fought for fortnight, uh, gaming sessions cause you know, havoc within the home. So it it's that application prioritization and optimization that, that I think will also really benefit, um, companies and the employees. The, the frustration is immense. >>I agree I've experienced some of that, but what you're really doing is providing a very secure lifeline that the enterprise needs, the employee needs. It, it's all tied together, productive employees, that our customer experience that our products and services it's, it's really these days, especially considering we don't know how much longer this is going to persist. We expect that there will be some amount of hybrid that will probably be permanent, but that's a lifeline. >>Yes, no, absolutely. I think to your point around the permanence of this, you know, of course we're not all going to be hermits and leave live at home forever, but that, you know, I think this has opened both companies and individuals eyes to what's possible. And I think if you implement these, these types of measures, then you you're setting it up for success. And, and, um, you know, I believe that the solution that we've launched is, is a part of the, the, the piece of the puzzle. >>Maybe the acceleration of it had a bit of a silver lining from what we've all experienced in the last 18 months. Yes. Yes. Talk to me about some of the comments and the feedback that you got from your session this morning. I'm sure people are very excited to hear about what you're doing. >>Yeah. I mean, since, since the announcement came out yesterday, there's been, there's been certainly a lot of interests in appetite. Um, and yeah, we're super excited about the reception it's received. Um, I think that a lot of people that are like, oh, wow, of course, why, why wouldn't this exist already? Um, and, and when you look at it like that, it kind of is obvious, but it, you know, no one expected of course the pandemic and therefore the, no one was ready for it and it's taken us a year or so to, to get a product that's, that's, that's viable and ready and going to be going to be really, really, um, a great utility for companies, but there really was nothing else out there. >>It is surprising in a sense, but then you're right. No one was prepared for the pandemic. We didn't see it coming. And we didn't think that this was a situation that we were going to have to prepare for, let alone live for as long as, as TBD, long as we have. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. That's um, I think it caught everyone by surprise. I think maybe if, if it had happened several years later than the hybrid work movement had started, it was in its infancy. It got very, very quickly ramped up to adulthood. >>I definitely >>Did. So, uh, so great news, very exciting. What you guys are doing with 49. I'm sure that there's going to be great customer feedback. We'll be excited to watch what happens as it gets deployed and rolled out and see how this really transforms the enterprise experience, the employee experience. And I imagine this is a great differentiator for links us business. No. Um, I think it's, it's a really exciting next chapter of, of our, of our history. You know, we've been around for 30 plus years and, um, I think this is, this is a real step change in, in, in where we're focused and I'm super excited about the future. >>I like that change in the future. Well, here we are in beautiful Napa. You said you're not a golfer, but your wife has, >>My wife is golfing. I I'm going to be keeping very many fingers crossed tomorrow during the program for this, for the safety of the spectators. >>That's awesome that she's in the program and here you are settled with all these meetings and all those >>Things. >>Exactly. Well, Harry, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for joining me on the program, explaining the links as homework solution powered by 49 and all the great things that are going to come from that. Thank you for Harry. Do Hurst. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube and Napa at the 40 minute security championship.

>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health client conversation. And we're probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and it's clients. We're going to look back at some of the challenges of 2020 and look forward to, you know, present year's priorities. We'll also touch on the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Vellante. I'll be your host and I'm from theCUBE. And with me are Doctor Alex Towbin, who's Associate Chief Clinical Operations and Informatics at Cincinnati ChilDoctoren's Hospital and John Chrisman of course from IBM Watson health. Welcome gentlemen, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Yeah I know from talking to many clients around the world, of course virtually this past year, 11 months or so that relationships with technology partners they've been critical over during the pandemic to really help folks get through that. Not that we're through it yet but, we're still through the year now, there's I'm talking professionally and personally and Doctor Towbin, I wonder if you could please talk about 2020 and what role the IBM partnership played in helping Cincinnati children's, you know press on in the face of incredible challenges? >> Yeah, I think our story of 2020 really starts before the pandemic and we were fortunate to be able to plan a disaster and do disaster drill scenarios. And so, as we were going through those disaster drill scenarios, we were trying to build a solution that would enable us to be able to work if all of our systems were down and we worked with IBM Watson Health to design that solution to implement it, it involves using other solutions from our primary one. And we performed that disaster drill in the late January, early February timeframe of 2020. And while that drill had nothing to do with COVID it got us thinking about how to deal with a disaster, how to prepare for a disaster. And so we've just completed that and COVID was coming on the horizon. I'm starting to hear about it coming into the U.S for the first time. And we took that very seriously on our department. And so, because we had prepared for this this disaster drill had gone through the entire exercise and we built out different scenarios for what could happen with COVID what would be our worst case scenarios and how we would deal with them. And so we were able to then bring that to quickly down to two options on how our department and our hospital would handle COVID and deal with that within the radiology department and like many other sites that becomes options of working from home or working in a isolated way and an and an office scenario like where I'm sitting now and we planned out both scenarios and eventually made the decision. Our decision at that point was to work in our offices. We're fortunate to have private offices where we can retreat to and something like that. And so then our relationship with IBM was helpful and that we needed to secure more pieces of hardware. And so even though IBM is our PACS vendor and our enterprise imaging vendor, they also help us to secure the high resolution monitors that are needed. And we needed a large influx of those during the pandemic and IBM was able to help us to get those. >> Wow! So yeah you were able to sort of test your organization resilience before the pandemic. I mean, John, that's quite an accomplishment for last year. I'm sure there are many others. I wonder if one of you could pick it up from here and bring your perspectives into it and, you know maybe ask any questions that you would like to ask them. >> Yeah, sure, Doctor Towbin, that's great that we were able to help you with the hardware and procure things. So I'm just curious before the pandemic how many of the radiologists ever got to read from home, was that a luxury back then? And then post pandemic, are you guys going to shift to how many are on-site versus remote? >> Yeah, so we have a couple of scenarios. We've had talk about it both from our PACS perspective as well as from our VNA enterprise imaging perspective from PACS perspective we always designed our solution to be able to work from a home machine. Our machines, people would access that through a hospital-based VPN. So they would log in directly to VPN and then access the PACS that way. And that worked well. And many of our radiologists do that particularly when they're on call works best for our neuroradiologist who are on call a little bit more frequently. And so they do read from home in that scenario. With enterprise imaging and are used to the enterprise viewer and iConnect access. We always wanted that solution to work over the internet. And so it's set up securely through the internet but not through the VPN. And we have radiologists use that as a way to view studies from home, even not from home, so it can be over one of their mobile devices, such as an iPad and could be at least reviewing studies then. We, for the most part for our radiologist in the hospital that's why we made the decision to stay in the hospital. At COVID time, we have such a strong teaching mission in our department in such a commitment to the education of our trainees. We think that hospital being in the hospital is our best way to do that, it's so hard. We find to do it over something like zoom or other sharing screen-sharing technology. So we've stayed in and I think we'll continue to stay in. There will be some of those needs from a call perspective for example, reading from home, and that will continue. >> And then what's your success been with this with the technology and the efficiency of reading from home? Do you feel like you're just as efficient when you're at home versus onsite? >> The technology is okay. The, our challenges when we're reading from the PACS which is the preferred way to do it rather than the enterprise archive, the challenge is we have to use the PACS So we have to be connected through VPN which limits our bandwidth and that makes it a little bit slower to read. And also the dictation software is a little bit slower when we're doing it. So moving study to study that rapid turnover doesn't happen but we have other ways to make, to accelerate the workflow. We cashed studies through the worklist. So they're on the machine, they load a little bit more rapidly and that works pretty well. So not quite as fast, but not terrible. >> We appreciate your partnership. I know it's been going on 10 years. I think you guys have a policy that you have to look at the market again every 10 years. So what do you think of how the market's changed and how we've evolved with the VNA and with the zero footprint viewers? A lot of that wasn't available when you initially signed up with Amicas years ago, so. >> Yeah, we signed up so we've been on this platform and then, you know now the IBM family starting in 2010, so it's now now 11 years that we're, we've been on as this version of the PACS and about eight, seven or eight years from the iConnect platform. And through that, we've seen quite an evolution. We were one of the first Amicas clients to be on version six and one of the largest enterprises. And that went from, we had trouble at the launch of that product. We've worked very closely with Amicas then to merge. And now IBM from the development side, as well as the support side to have really what we think is a great product that works very well for us and drives our entire workflow all the operations of our department. And so we've really relished that relationship with now IBM. And it's been a very good one, and it's allowed us to do the things like having disaster drill planning that we talked about earlier as far as where I see the market I think PACS in particular is on the verge of the 3.0 version as a marketplace. So PACSS 1 one was about building the packs, I think, and and having electronic imaging digital imaging, PACS 2.0 is more of web-based technology, getting it out of those private networks within a radiology department. And so giving a little bit more to the masses and 3.0 is going to be more about incorporating machine learning. I really see that as the way the market's going to go and to where I think we're at the infancy of that part of the market now about how do you bring books in for machine learning algorithms to help to drive workflow or to drive some image interpretation or analysis, as far as enterprise imaging, we're on the cusp of a lot there as well. So we've been really driving deep with enterprise imaging leading nationally enterprise imaging and I have a role in the MSAM Enterprise Imaging Community. And through all of that work we've been trying to tackle works well from enterprise imaging point of view the challenges are outside of radiology, outside of cardiology and the places where we're trying to deal with medical photos, the photographs taken with a smart device or a digital camera of another type, and trying to have workflow that makes sense for providers not in those specialty to that don't have tools like a DICOM modality workloads store these giant million-dollar MRI scanners that do all the work for you, but dealing with off the shelf, consumer electronics. So making sure the workflow works for them, trying to tie reports in trying to standardize the language around it, so how do we tag photos correctly so that we can identify relevancy all of those things we're working through and are not yet standard within our, within the industry. And so we're doing a lot there and trying and seeing the products in the marketplace continuing to evolve around that on the viewer side, there's really been a big emergence as you mentioned about the zero footprint viewers or the enterprise viewer, allowing easy access easy viewing of images throughout the enterprise of all types of imaging through obtained in the enterprise and will eventually incorporate video pathology. The market is also trying to figure out if there can be one type of viewer that does them all that and so that type of universal viewer, a viewer that cardiologists can use the same as a radiologist the same as a dermatologist, same as a pathologist we're all I think a long way away from that. But that's the Marcus trying to figure those two things out. >> Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with your assessment. You talked about the non DICOM areas, and I know you've you've partnered with us, with ImageMover and you've got some mobile device capture taking place. And you're looking to expand that more to the enterprise. Are you also starting to use the XDS registry? That's part of the iConnect enterprise archive, or as well as wrapping things in DICOM, or are you going to stick with just wrapping things in DICOM? >> Yeah, so far we've been very bunched pro DICOM and using that throughout the enterprise. And we've always thought, or maybe we've evolved to think that there is going to be a role for XDS are I think our early concerns with XDS are the lack of other institutions using it. And so, even though it's designed for portability if no one else reads it, it's not portable. If no one else is using that. But as we move more and more into other specialties things like dermatology, ophthalmology, some of the labeling that's needed in those images and the uses, the secondary uses of those images for education, for publication, for dermatology workflow or ophthalmology workflow, needs to get back to that native file and the DICOM wrap may not make sense for them. And so we've been actively talking about switching towards XDS for some of the non DICOM, such as dermatology. We've not yet done that though. >> Given the era children's hospital has the impact on your patient load, then similar to what regular adult hospitals are, or have you guys had a pretty steady number of studies over the last year? >> In relay through the pandemic, we've had, it has been decreased, but children fortunately have not been as severely affected as adults. There is definitely disease in children and we see a fair amount of that. There are some unique things that happen in kids but that fortunately rare. So there's this severe inflammatory response that kids can get and can cause them to get very sick but it is quite rare. Our volumes are, I think I'm not I think our volumes are stable and our advanced imaging things like CT, MRI, nuclear medicine, they're really most decreased in radiography. And we see some weird patterns, inpatient volumes are relatively stable. So our single view chest x-rays, for example, have been stable. ER, visits are way down because people are either wearing masks, isolating or not wanting to come to the ER. So they're not getting sick with things like the flu or or even common colds or pneumonias. And so they're not coming into the ER as much. So our two view x-rays have dropped by like 30%. And so we were looking at this just yesterday. If you follow the graphs for the two we saw a dip of both around March, but essentially the one view chest were a straight line and the two view chest were a straight line and in March dropped 30 to 50% and then stayed at that lower level. Other x-rays are on the, stay at that low level side. >> Thanks, I know in 2021 we've got a big upgrade coming with you guys soon and you're going to stay in our standalone mode. I understand what the PACSS and not integrate deeply to the VNA. And so you'll have a couple more layers of storage there but can you talk about your excitement about going to 8.1 and what you're looking forward to based on your testimony. >> Yeah we're actually in, we're upgrading as we're talking which is interesting, but it's a good time for talking. I'm not doing that part of the work. And so our testing has worked well. I think we're, we are excited. We, you know, we've been on the product as I mentioned for over 10 years now. And for many of those years we were among the first, at each version. Now we're way behind. And we want to get back up to the latest and greatest and we want to stay cutting edge. There've been a lot of reasons why we haven't moved up to that level, but we do. We're very careful in our testing and we needed a version that would work for us. And there were things about previous versions that just didn't and as you mentioned, we're staying in that standalone mode. We very much want to be on the integrated mode in our future because enterprise imaging is so important and understanding how the comparisons fit in with the comparison in dermatology or chest wall deformity clinic, or other areas how those fit into the radiology story is important and it helped me as a radiologist be a better radiologist to see all those other pictures. So I want them there but we have to have the workflow, right. And so that's the part that we're still working towards and making sure that that fits so we will get there. It'll probably be in the next year or two to get to that immigrating mode. >> As you, look at the number of vendors you have I think you guys prefer to have less vendor partners than than more I know in the cardiology area you guys do some cardiology work. What has been the history or any, any look to the future of that related to enterprise imaging? Do you look to incorporate more of that into a singular solution? >> Cardiology is entirely part of our enterprise imaging solution. We all the cardiology amendments go to our vendor neutral archive on the iConnect platform. All of them are viewed across the enterprise using our enterprise viewer. They have their unique specialty viewer which is, you know, fine. I'm a believer that specialty, different specialties, deserve to have their specialty viewers to do theirs specialty reads. And at this point I don't think the universal viewer works or makes sense until we have that. And so all the cardiology images are there. They're all of our historical cardiology images are migrated and part of our enterprise solution. So they're part of the entire reference the challenge is they're just not all in PACSS. And so that's where, you know, an example, great example, why we need to get to this to the integrated mode to be able to see those. And the reason we didn't do that is the cardiology archive is so large to add a storage to the PACS archive. Didn't make sense if we knew we were going to be in an integrated mode eventually, and we didn't want to double our PACS storage and then get rid of it a couple of years later. >> So once you're on a new version of merge PACS and you're beyond this, what are your other goals in 2021? Are you looking to bring AI in? Are you using anybody else's AI currently? >> Yeah, we do have AI clinical it's phone age, so it's not not a ton of things but we've been using it clinically, fully integrated, it launches. When I open a study, when I opened a bone age study impacts it launches we have a bone age calculator as well that we've been using for almost two decades now. And so that we have to use that still but launching that automatically includes the patient's sex and birth date, which are keys for determining bone age, and all that information is there automatically. But at the same time, the images are sent to the machine learning algorithm. And in the background the machine determines a bone age that in the background it sends it straight to our dictation system and it's there when we opened the study. And so if I agree with that I signed the report and we're done. If I disagree, I copy it from my calculator and put it in until it takes just a couple of clicks. We are working on expanding. We've done a lot of research in artificial intelligence and the department. And so we've been things are sort of in the middle of translation of moving it from the research pure research realm to the clinical realm, something we're actively working on trying to get them in. Others are a little bit more difficult. >> That's the question on that John, Doctor, when you talk about injecting, you know machine intelligence into the equation. >> Yeah. >> What, how do you sort of value that? Does that give you automation? Does it improve your quality? Does it speed the outcome and maybe it's all of those but how do you sort of evaluate the impact to your organisation? >> I there's a lot of ways you can do it. And you touched on one of my favorite one of my favorite talking points, in a lot of what we've been doing and early machine learning is around image interpretation helping me as a radiologist to see a finding. Unfortunately, most of the things are fairly simple tasks that it's asking us to do. Like, is there a broken bone? Yes or no, I'm not trying to sound self-congratulatory or anything, but I'm really good at finding broken bones. I get, I've been doing it for a long time and, and radio, you know so machines doing that, they're going to perform as well as I can perform, you know, and that's the goal. Maybe they'll perform a little bit better maybe a little bit worse but we're talking tiny increments there they're really to me, not much value of that it's not something I would want. I don't value that at a time where I think machine learning can have real value around more on some of the things that you mentioned. So can it make me more efficient? Can it do the things that are so annoying that and they'd take, they're so tedious that they make me unhappy. A lot of little measurements for example are like that an example. So in a patient with cancer, we measure a little tumors everywhere and that's really important for their care, but it's tedious and so if a machine could do that in an automated way and I checked it that, you know, patient when because he or she can get that good quality care and I have a, you know, a workflow efficiency game. So that one's important. Another one that would be important is if the machine can see things I can't see. So I'm really good at finding fractures. I'm not really good at understanding what all the pixels mean and, you know in that same patient with cancer, oh what do all the pixels mean in that tumor? I know it's a tumor. I can see the tumor, I can say it's a tumor but sometimes those pixels have a lot of information in them and may give us prognosis, you know, say that this patient may, maybe this patient will do well with this specific type of chemotherapy or a specific or has a better prognosis with one with one drug compared to another. Those are things that we can't usually pick out. You know, it's beyond the level of that are I can perceive that one is really the cutting edge of machine learning. We're not there yet and then the other thing are things that, you know just the behind the scenes stuff that I don't necessarily need to be doing, or, you know so it's the non interpretive artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Right. >> And that's what I've been also trying to push. So an example of when the algorithms that we've been developing here we check airways. And this is a little bit historical in our department, but we want to make sure we're not missing a severe airway infection. That can be deadly, it's incredibly rare. Vaccines have made it go away completely but we still check airways. And so what happens is the technologist takes the x-ray. They come in to ask us if it's okay, we are interrupted from what we're doing. We open up the study, say yes or no. Okay, not okay, if it's not okay they go back, take another study. Then come back to us again and say, is it okay or not? And we repeat this a couple of times it takes them time that they don't need to spend and takes us time. And so we have, we've built an algorithm where the machine can check that and their machine is as good or a little bit worse than us, but give can give that feedback. >> Dave: Got it. >> The challenge is getting that feedback to the technologist quickly. And so that's, that's I think part for us to work on stuff. >> Thank you for that. So, John, we've probably got three or four minutes left. I'll let you bring it home and appreciate that Doctor Towbin >> I think one of the biggest impacts probably I knew this last year with the pandemic, Doctor Towbin is this, I know you're a big foodie. So having been to some good restaurants and dinners with the hot nurse in a house how's the pandemic affected you personally. And some of the things you like to do outside of work. >> Everything is shut down. And everything has changed. I have not left the house since March besides come to work and my family hasn't either. And so we're hardcore quarantining and staying you know, staying out and keeping it home. So we've not gone out to dinner or done much else. >> So its DoorDash and Uber Eats or just learned to cook at home. >> It's all cooking at home. We're fortunate, my wife loves to cook. My kids love to cook. I enjoy cooking, but I don't have the time as often. So we've done a lot of different are on our own experimenting. Maybe when the silver lining one of the things I've really relished about all this is all this time I get to spend with my family. And that closeness that we've been able to achieve because of being confined in our house the whole time. And so I've played get to play video games with my kids every night. We'd been on a big Fortnite Keck lately since it's been down making. So we've been playing that every night since we've watched movies a lot. And so as a family, we've, I it's something I'll look back fondly even though it's been a very difficult time but it's been an enjoyable time. >> I agree, I've enjoyed more family time this year as well, but final question is in 2021, beyond the PACS upgrade what are the top other two projects that you want to accomplish with us this year? And how can we help you? >> I think our big one is are the big projects are unexpanded enterprise imaging. And so we want to continue rolling out to other areas that will include eventually incorporating scopes, all the images from the operating room. We need to be able to get into pathology. I think the pathology is really going to be a long game. Unfortunately, I've been saying that already for 10 years and it's still probably another 10 years ago but we need to go. We can start with the gross pathology images all the pictures that we take for tumor boards and get those in before we start talking about whole slide scanning and getting in more of the more of the photographs in the institution. So we have a route ambulatory but we need inpatient and ER. >> All right one last question. What can IBM do to be a better partner for you guys? >> I think it's keep listening keep listening and keep innovating. And don't be afraid to be that innovative partner sort of thinking as the small company that startup, rather than the giant bohemoth that can sometimes happen with large companies, it's harder. It is fear to turn quickly, but being a nimble company and making quick decisions, quick innovations. >> Great, quick question. How would you grade IBM, your a tough grader? >> It depends on what I am a tough grader but it depends on what, you know as the overall corporate partnership? >> Yeah the relationship. >> I'd say it's A minus. >> Its pretty good. >> I think, I mean, I, we get a lot of love from IBM. I'm talking specifically in the imaging space. I not, maybe not, I don't know as much on the hardware side but we, yeah, we have a really good relationship. We feel like we're listened to and we're valued. >> All right, well guys, thanks so much. >> So even if it's not an A plus- >> Go ahead. >> I think there's some more to, you know, from the to keep innovating side there's little things that we just let you know we've been asking for that we don't always get but understand the company has to make business decisions not decisions on what's best for me. >> Of course got to hold that carrot out too. Well thanks guys, really appreciate your time. Great conversation. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right and thank you for spending some time with us. You're watching client conversations with IBM Watson Health.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Online brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's Virtual coverage of Amazon Web Services, AWS Public Sector Summit Online. We couldn't be there in person, but we're doing remote interviews. I'm John Furrier, your host of the cube. We've got a great segment from Asia Pacific on the other side of the world from California, about social impact, transforming teaching and learning with Cloud technology we've got three great guests. Hugo Richard is the CEO and co-founder of Dystech and Janine Teo CEO and founder of Solve Education founders and CEOs of startups is great Vincent Quah is the APAC Regional Head of Education, Healthcare Not-For-Profit and Research for AWS. (indistinct) big program. Vincent, thanks for coming on Janine and Hugo thank you for joining. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Thanks John So, we're not there in person. We're doing remote interviews. I'm really glad to have this topic because now more than ever social change is happening. This next generation is building software and applications to solve big problems. And it's not like yesterday's problems, they're today's problems and learning and mentoring and starting companies are all happening virtually, digitally, and also in person. So the world's changing. So I got to ask you, Vincent we'll start with you Amazon, obviously big (indistinct) culture. You got two great founders here and CEOs doing some great stuff. Tell us a little bit what's going on at APAC, a lot of activity. I mean re-invent and the summits out there are really popular. Give us an update on what's happening. >> Thank you, thank you for the question, John. I think it's extremely exciting, especially in today's context, that we are seeing so much activities, especially in the education technology sector. One of the challenges that we saw from our education technology customers is that they're always looking for help and support in many of the innovation that they're trying to develop. The second area of observation that we had was that they are always alone with very limited resources and they usually do not know where to look for in terms of support and in terms of not who they can reach out to from a community standpoint, that is actually how we started and developed this program called AWS EdStart. It is a program specifically for education technology companies that are targeting, delivering innovative education solutions for the education sector. And we bring specific benefits to these education technology companies when they joined the program, AWS EdStart. Yeah, three specific areas, one is that we support them with technical support, which is really, really key trying to help them navigate in the various ranges of AWS services that allows them to develop innovative services. The second area is leaking them and building a community of like-minded education technology founders, and linking them also to investors and VCs. And lastly, of course, in supporting innovation, we support them with a bit of AWS Cloud credits, promotional credits for them so that they can go and experiment and develop innovations for their customers. >> That's great stuff I want to get into that program a little bit further because I think, you know, that's a great example of kind of benefits AWS provides (indistinct) free credits or, no one is going to turn away free credits. We'll take the free credits all the time, all day long, but really it's about the innovation. Janine I want to get your thoughts. How was Solve Education born? What problems were you solving? What made you start this company and tell us your story. >> Thank you so much for the question. So actually my co-founder was invited to speak at an African Innovation Forum couple of years back, and the topic that he was sharing with, how can Africa skip over the industrialization phase and go direct to the knowledge economy and that discussion went towards, in order to have access to the knowledge commonly you need knowledge and how do you get knowledge well through education. So that's when everybody in the Congress was a bit stuck, right? And the advice was in order to scale fast, we need to figure out a way to not while, you know, engaging the government and schools and teachers, but not depend on them for the success of the education initiative. So, and that's was what (indistinct) walk away from the conference. And when we met in Jakarta, we started talking about that also. So while I'm Singaporean, I worked in many developing countries. And the problem that we're trying to solve is it might be shocking to you, but UNESCO recently published over 600 million children and youth are not learning. And that is a big number globally, right? And out of all the SDGs per se, from UN, education, and perhaps I'm biased, because I'm a computer engineer, but I see that education is the only one that can be solved by transforming (indistinct) versus the other SDGs like, you know, poverty or hunger, right? Actually require big amount of logistic coordination and so on. So we saw a very interesting trend with mobile phones, particularly smart phones becoming more and more ubiquitous. And with that, we saw a very interesting opportunity for us to disseminate education through mobile technology. So we in self-education elevate people on a public through providing education and employment opportunities, (indistinct) on tech. And we.. our vision is to enable people to empower themselves. And what we do is that we build an open platform that provides everyone active education. >> Hugo How about your company? What problem are you solving? How did it all get started? Tell us your vision. >> Thanks, John. Well, look, it all started with a joke, one of the co-founder, Matthew, had a, he has a child who has severe learning disorder and dyslexia, and he made a joke one day about having (indistinct) that could support those kids. And I took the joke seriously. So we started sitting down and, you know, trying to figure out how we can make this happen. So it turns out that dyslexia is the most common learning disorder in the world. We have an estimated 10 to 20% of the worldwide population with the disorder, due to in context, that's between 750 million up to 1.5 billion individuals with that learning disorder. And so where we sort of try and tackle the problem is that we've identified that there's two key things for children with dyslexia. The first one is that knowing that it is dyslexia, meaning being assessed. And the second one is, so what, what do we do about it? And so given all expertise in data science and AI, we clearly saw an opportunity of sort of building something that could assess individual children and adults with dyslexia. The big problem with the assessment is that it's very expensive. We've met parents in the U.S. specifically who paid up to 6,000 U.S. Dollars for a diagnosis with an educational psychologist. On the other side, we have parents who wait 12 months before having a spot. So what we saw clearly is that the observable symptom of dyslexia are reading, and everyone has a smartphone and (indistinct) from smartphone is actually really good to record your voice. So we started collecting audio recordings from children and adults who have been diagnosed with dyslexia. And we then try to model and to recognize the likelihood of dyslexia by analyzing audio recording. So in theory, it's like diagnosed dyslexic, helping other undiagnosed dyslexic being diagnosed. So we have now (indistinct) them. That can take about 10 minutes, which requires no prior training costs, 20 U.S. Dollar, and anyone can use it to assess someone's likelihood of dyslexia. >> You know, this is the kind of thing that really changes the game because you also have learning for questions that are nonlinear and different. You've got YouTube, you've got videos, you have knowledge bases, you've got community. Vincent mentioned that Janine, you mentioned, you know, making the bits of driver and changing technology. This is the kind of thing that seems obvious now as look at it, but now you've got to put it into action. So, you know, one of the benefits of Cloud on AWS, we'll give a plug for Vincent's company here is that you can move faster. And that's something that Andy Jassy always talks about and Teresa Carlson, being builders and moving fast, but you got to build it. So Janine and Hugo, please take a minute to explain, okay, you got the idea, you're kicking the tires, you're putting it together. Now you've got to actually start writing code. What happens next? Janine, we'll start with you. >> Well, what happens next? Okay. So for us, we know education technology is not new, right. And education games are not new, but before we even started, we look at what's available and we quickly realized that the digital divide is very real, most technology out there first are not designed for (indistinct) devices, and also not designed for people who do not have internet at home. so with just that assessment, we quickly realized we need to do something about, and that's something that problem is. One is just one part of the whole puzzle. There's two other very important things. One is advocacy. Can we prove that we can teach through mobile devices? And then the second thing is motivation. And again, it's also really obvious, but, and people might think that, you know, marginalized communities are super motivated to learn. Well, I wouldn't say that they are not motivated, but just like all of us behavioral change is really hard, right? I would love to workout everyday, but you know, I don't really do that. So how do we use technology to, you know, to induce that behavioral change so that we can help support their motivation to learn. So those are the different things that we work on, certainly with it. >> Yeah, and then a motivated community, is even more impactful because then once the flywheel gets going, then it's powerful. Hugo your reaction to, you know, you got the idea, you got the vision, you're starting to put, take one step in front of the other. You got AWS, take us through the progression on the startup. >> Yeah, sure. I mean, what Janine said is, very likely to, to what we're trying to do, but for us, there's three key things that in order for us to be successful and help as much people as we can, it is three things. The first one is reliability. The second one is accessibility and the other one is affordability. So the reliability means that we have been doing a lot of work in the scientific approach as to how are we going to make this work And so we've.. We have a couple of scientific publications and we had to collect data and, you know, sort of publish this into AI conferences and things like that. So it makes sure that we have the scientific evidence behind us that support us. And so what that means is that we have to have a large amount of data and then put this to work, right on the other side of the accessibility and affordability means that Janine said, you know, it needs to be on the Cloud because if it's on the Cloud, it's accessible for anyone with any device, with an internet connection, which is, you know, covering most of the globe. So it's a good start. And so, the Cloud obviously allow us to deliver the same experience and the same value to clients and parent and teacher and (indistinct) professional around the world. And that's why, you know, it's been amazing, to be able to use the technology on the AI side as well obviously there is a lot of benefit of being able to leverage the computational power of the Cloud, to make better algorithm and better training. >> (indistinct) to come back to both of you on the AI question. I think that's super important. Vincent I want to come back to you though, because in Asia Pacific and that side of the world, you still have the old guard, the incumbents around education and learning, but there's great penetration with mobile and broadband. You have great trends as a tailwind for Amazon and these kinds of opportunities EdStart, what trends are you seeing that are now favoring you? Because with COVID, you know, the world is almost kind of like been a line in the sand is before COVID and after COVID, there's more demand for learning and education and community now than ever before, not just for education, the geopolitical landscape, everything around the younger generation is more channels, more data, the more engagement, how are you looking at this? What's your vision of these trends? Can you share your thoughts on how that's impacting learning and teaching? >> So there're three things that I want to quickly touch on. Number one, I think governments are beginning to recognize that they really need to change the way they approach solving social and economic problems. The pandemic has certainly calls into question that if you do not have a digital strategy, you can't find a better time to now develop and not just develop a digital strategy, but actually to put it in place. And so government are shifting very, very quickly into the Cloud and adopting digital strategy and use digital strategy to address some of the key problems that they are facing. And they have to solve them in a very short period of time. Right, We will talk about speed, the agility of the Cloud, and that's why the Cloud is so powerful for government to adopt. The second thing is that we saw a lot of schools close down across the world, UNESCO reported, what 1.5 billion students out of schools. So how then do you continue teaching and learning when you don't have physical classroom open and that's where education technology companies and, you know, heroes like Janine's company and others, there are so many of them around are able to come forward and offer their services and help schools go online, run classrooms online, continue to allow teaching and learning, you know, online. And this has really benefited the overall education system. The third thing that is happening is that I think tertiary education and maybe even (indistinct) education model will have to change. And they recognize that, you know, again, it goes back to the digital strategy that they've got to have a clear digital strategy and the education technology companies like what, who we have here today. Just the great partners that the education system need to look at to help them solve some of these problems and get to addressing giving a solution very, very quickly. >> Well, I know you're being kind of polite to the old guard, but I'm not that polite. I'll just be, say it. There's some old technology out there and Janine and Hugo, you're young enough not to know what IT means because you're born in the Cloud. So that's good for you. I remember what I teach. Like in fact, there's a, there's a joke here in the United States so with everyone at home the teachers have turned into the IT department, meaning they're helping the parents and the kids figure out how to go unmute and how to configure a network address translation if their routers don't work, real problems. I mean, this was technology, schools were operating with low tech Zoom's out there. You've got video conferencing, you've got all kinds of things, but now there's all that support that's involved. And so what's happening is it's highlighting the real problems of the institutional technology. So Vincent, I'll start with you. This is a big problem. So Cloud solves that one, you guys have pretty much helped IT do things that they don't want to do anymore by automation. This is an opportunity, not necessarily.. There's a problem today, but it's an opportunity tomorrow. Could you just quickly talk about how you see the Cloud, helping all this manual training and learning new tools. >> Absolutely. So I want to say and put forth a hypothesis and that hypothesis is simply this. We are all now living in a Cloud empowered economy, whether we like it or not, we are touching and using services that are powered by the Cloud. And a lot of them are powered by the AWS Cloud, but we don't know about it. A lot of people just don't know, right? Whether you are watching Netflix, well in the old days, you're buying tickets and booking hotels on Expedia, or now you're actually playing games on Epic Entertainment, you know, playing Fortnite and all those kinds of games you're already using and a consumer of the Cloud. And so one of the big ideas that we have is we really want to educate and create awareness of top computing for every single person. If it can be used for innovation and to bring about benefits to society that is a common knowledge that everyone needs to have. And so the first big idea is, want to make sure that everyone actually is educated on Cloud literacy. The second thing is for those who have not embarked on a clear Cloud strategy, this is the time don't wait for another pandemic to happen because you want to be ready. You want to be prepared for the unknown, which is what a lot of people are faced with. And you want to get ahead of the curve. And so education, training yourself, getting some learning done. And that's really very, very important as a next step to prepare yourself to face the uncertainty and having programs like AWS EdStart actually helps to empower and catalyze innovation in the education industry that our two founders have actually demonstrated. So back to you, John. >> Congratulation on the EdStart, we'll get into that and real quickly, EdStart but let's first get the born in the Cloud generation Janine and Hugo you guys are competing, you got to get your apps out there. You've got to get your solutions. You're born in the Cloud. You have to go compete with the existing solutions. How do you view that? What's your strategy? What's your mindset, Janine, we'll start with you. >> So for us, we are very aware that we are solving a problem that has never been solved, right? If not, we wouldn't have so many people who are not learning. So this is a very big problem. And being able to leverage on Cloud technology means that we are able to just focus on what we do best, right? How do we make sure that learning is sufficient and learning is effective. And how do we get people motivated and all those sort of great things leveraging on game mechanics, social network, and incentives. And then while we do that on the Cloud side, we can just put that almost ourselves, everything to AWS Cloud technology to help us not worry about that. And you were absolutely right. The pandemic actually woke up a lot of people and has organizations like myself. We start to get queries from governments and other, even big NGOs on, you know, because before COVID we had to really do our best to convince them until (indistinct) are dry >> (indistinct) knock on doors and convince people. >> Yes. And now we don't have to do that. It's the other way around. So we are really, you know, we appreciate this opportunity and also we want to help people realize that in order to.. By adopting either a blended approach or adopting technology means that you can do mass customization of learning as well. And that's, what we could do to really push learning to the next level. So, and, there are a few other creative things that we've done with governments, for example, with the government of East Java on top of just using the education platform, as it is an educational platform, which is education (indistinct) on our civilization, they have added in a module that teaches COVID because, you know, their health care system is really under a lot of strain there, right? And adding this component in and the most popular mini game in that component is this game called Hoax Or Not. And it teaches people to identify what's fake news and what's real news. And that really went very popular and very well in that region of 25 million people. So that became not only just boring school subjects, but it can be used to teach many different things. And following that project, we are working with the Federal Government of Indonesia to talk about (indistinct) and even a very difficult topic like sex education as well. >> Yeah. And the learning is nonlinear, it's horizontally scalable, it's network graph. So you can learn, share about news. And this is contextual data. It's not just learning, it's everything. It's not like, you know, linear learning. It's a whole nother ballgame, Hugo, your competitive strategy. You're out there now, you got the COVID world. How are you competing? How's Amazon helping you? >> Absolutely John, look, this is an interesting one because the common competitor that we have are educational psychologist, they're not at tech. So I wouldn't say that we're competing against a competitor per se. I would say that we are competing against some old way of doing things. The challenge for us is to empower people, to be comfortable with having a machine, you know, analyzing your kid's audio recording and telling you if it's likely to be dyslexia. And this concept obviously is very new. You know, we can see this in other industry with AI, you know, you have the app that Stanford created to diagnose skin cancer by taking a photo of your skin. So it's being done in different industry. So the biggest challenge for us is really about the old way of doing things. What's been really interesting for us is that you know, education is lifelong, you know, you have a big pot in school, but when you're an adult you learn and, you know, we've been doing some very interesting work with the Justice Department where, you know, we look at inmate and, and, you know, often when people go to jail, they have, you know, some literacy difficulty. And so we've been doing some very interesting work in this field. We're also doing some very interesting work with HR and company who want to understand their staff and put management in place so that every single person in the company are empowered to do the job and, you know, achieve success. So, you know, we're not competing against Ed Tech. And often when we talk to other Ed Tech company, we come before, you know, we don't provide a learning solution. We provide an assessment solution, an E assessment solution. So really John, what we competing against is an old way of doing things. >> And that's exactly why the Cloud's so successful. You change the economics. You're actually a net new benefit. And I think the Cloud gives you speed. And your only challenge is getting the word out because the economics are just game changing, right? So that's how Amazon does so well, by the way, you can take all our recordings from theCUBE interviews, all my interviews and let me know how I do, okay. So got all the, got all the voice recordings for my interview. I'm sure the test will come back challenging. So take a look at that. >> Absolutely. >> Vincent I want to come back to you, but I want to ask the two founders real quick for the folks watching okay and hear about Amazon. They know the history, they know the startups that started on Amazon that became unicorns that went public. I mean, just a long list of successes born in the Cloud. You get big pay when you're successful, love that business model. But for the folks watching that are in the virtual garages or in their houses innovating and building out new ideas, what does EdStart mean for them? How does it work? Would you would recommend it? And what are some of the learnings that you have from working with EdStart? Janine We'll start with you. >> For me. So I would, for me, I would definitely highly recommend EdStart. And the reason is because EdStart, our relationship with EdStart, is almost not like a client-supplier relationship it's almost like business partners. So they not only help us with providing the technology. But on top of that, they have their system architects to work with my tech team and they have, you know, open technical hours for us to interact. And on top of that, they do many other things like building a community where, you know, people like me and Google can meet. And also other opportunities like getting out there, right? As you know, all of the startups run on a very thin budget. So how do we not pour millions of dollars into getting all that out there is another big benefit as well. So I'll definitely very much recommend EdStart. And I think another big thing is this, right? Now that we have COVID and we have demands coming from all other places including like, even (indistinct) from the Government of Gambia, you know, so how do we quickly deploy our technology right there? Or how do we deploy our technology from the people who are demanding our solution in Nigeria, right? With technology it is almost brainless. >> Yeah. The great enabling technology ecosystem to support you. I think, at the regions too. So the regions do help. I love we call them cube regions because we're on Amazon, we have our Cloud Hugo, EdStart your observations, experience and learnings from working with AWS. >> Absolutely. Look, there's a lot to say, so I'll try and make it short for anyone, but, so for us and me personally, and also as an individual and as a founder, it's really been a 365 sort of support. So like Janine mentioned, there's the community where you can connect with existing entrepreneur. You can connect with experts in different industry. You can ask technical experts and have a, you know, office hour every week. Like you said, Janine with, your tech team talking to a Cloud architect just to unlock any problem that you may have. And, you know, on the business side, I would add something which for us has been really useful is the fact that when we've approached government, being able to say that we have the support of AWS and that we work with them to establish data integrity, making sure everything is properly secured and all that sort of thing has been really helpful in terms of moving forward with discussion with potential client and government as well. So there's also the business aspect side of things, where when people see you, there's a perceived value that, you know, your entourage is smart people and people who are capable of doing great things. So that's been also really helpful. >> You know, that's a great point. The AppSec review process as you do deals is a lot easier when you're on AWS. Vincent we're a little bit over time. What a great panel here. Close us out, share with us what's next for you guys. You've got a great startup ecosystem and doing some great work out there and education as well, healthcare, how's your world going on? Take a minute to explain what's going on in your world. >> John I'm part of the public sector team worldwide in AWS, we have very clear mission statements. And the first is, you know, we want to bring about disruptive innovation. And the AWS Cloud is really the platform where so many of our Ed Techs, whether it's (indistinct) Health Tech, Gulf Tech, all those who are developing solutions to help our governments and our education institutions, our healthcare institutions to really be better at what they do. We want to bring about those disruptive innovations to the market, as fast as possible. It's just an honor and a privilege for us to be working. And why is that important? It's because it's linked to our second mission, which is to really make the world a better place to really deliver.. The kind of work that Hugo and Janine are doing. We cannot do it by ourselves. We need specialists and really people with brilliant ideas and think big vision to be able to carry out what they are doing. And so we're just honored and privileged to be part of their work. And in delivering this impact to society. >> The expansion of AWS out in your area has been phenomenal growth. I've been saying to Teresa Carlson and Andy Jassy and the folks at AWS for many, many years, that when you move fast with innovation, the public sector and the private partnerships come together, you starting to see that blending. And you've got some great founders here making a social impact, transforming teaching and learning. So congratulations, Janine and Hugo. Thank you for sharing your story on theCUBE. Thanks for joining. >> Thank you for having us >> thanks John >> Thank you, John. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE Virtual we're remote. We're not in person this year because of the pandemic you're watching AWS Public Sector Online Summit. Thank you for watching. (soft music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante over the past 150 days virtually everybody that i know in the technology industry has become an expert on covid in some way shape or form we've all lived the reality that covet 19 has accelerated by at least two years many trends that were in motion well before the virus hit the cyber security sector is no exception and one of the best examples where we have witnessed the accelerated change hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll update you on the all-important security sector which remains one of the top spending priorities for organizations and i want to give you a shout out to my colleague eric bradley from etr who gave me some really good data and some macro insights as well as some anecdotal data from csos for this episode let's take a look at the big picture first now for many years we've talked about the shifting patterns in networking moving from what's often referred to as a north-south architecture meaning a hierarchical network that supports you know age-old organizational structures well today the network is flattening into what they often refer to as an east-west model and the moat or perimeter it's been vaporized the perimeter is now wherever the user is and users are at home or they're at their beach houses thanks to kovid now this is a bad actor's dream as the threat surfaced has expanded by orders of magnitude and as we've said in the past the adversary is well funded extremely capable and highly motivated because the roi of infiltration and exfiltration is outstanding the cso's job quite simply stated is to lower that return on investment now the other big trend that we see is that the cloud and sas are reducing reliance on hardware-based solutions like traditional firewalls because so many workers are now at home they're in their accessing sensitive data identity and endpoint security are exploding xdr or extended detection and response and zero trust networks are on the rise organizations are increasingly relying on analytics and automation to detect and remediate threats you know alerts just don't cut it anymore i need action and so to do so they're turning to a number of best of breed point products that have the potential to become the next great security platforms and this is setting up an epic battle between hot startups that are growing very very quickly and entrenched incumbents that really aren't going to go down without a fight finally while security is clearly a top spending priority customers and their cfos continue to be somewhat circumspect with respect to how much they allocate toward security budgets especially in the context of a shrinking i.t spending climate that we have said is dropping between five and eight percent in 2020. now security is critical but even in these times spending is governed by these tight budgets well cyber remains a top category in the etr taxonomy in terms of its presence in the data set what this chart tells us is that cios and i.t buyers have other priorities that they have to fund this data shows a comparison of net scores over three survey dates october of last year april and july net score remember is an indicator of momentum which is calculated by subtracting the percent of customers spending less on the technology from those spending more it's more complicated than that but that's that's the basics and you can see that at a 29 net score the security sector is just one of many priorities that i.t buyers face now remember this is the july survey and it's asking customers are you planning to spend more or less in the second half of 2020 relative to the first half and it's a forward-looking metric so what may be happening here is that the height of the lockdown and in the u.s anyway and the pivot to work from home organizations were spending heavily and are now fine-tuning those investments and maybe addressing other digital priorities let's look back and do some pre and post-covet assessments of various players within the etr data set i'm gonna go fairly quickly through these next slides but i want to give you a perspective as to how the security landscape and the vendor momentum has changed in the past eight months first i'm going to take you back to the january data set we actually originally did this exercise last year and then we updated it right at the beginning of 2020. the chart shows the top-ranked cyber security companies based on two metrics the left-hand side sorts the data and ranks companies based on net score or spending momentum and the right-hand side shows the ranking by shared n which is a measure of the pervasiveness of a company in the data set i.e the number of mentions that they get in the sector and what we did is we gave four stars to those companies that showed up in the top of both of those rankings and two stars to those that were close so you can see that microsoft splunk palo alto and proofpoint as well as octa and crowdstrike and then we added z scalar in january as new and then cyber arc software all got four stars then we gave cisco and fortinet two stars now this next chart shows the same thing at the height of the u.s lockdown now you may say okay what's the difference there's still microsoft palo alto proof point octa cyber arc z scaler and crowdstrike at four stars with cisco and fortnite having two star stars splunk fell off but that's it well what's different is instead of making the cut the top 22 which we did last time we narrowed it down to the top ten in order for a company to make that grade so if we had done that in january octa crowdstrike zscaler and cyberark they wouldn't have made the cut but in april they did as their presence in the dataset grew and we strongly believe this is a direct result of the work from home pivot crowdstrike endpoint octa identity access management z-scaler cloud security and they're disrupting traditional appliance-based firewalls now just to note we placed dell emc which was rsa and ibm in the list just for context now let's take a look at the most recent july survey now a lot of i'm out on a limb a little bit here because many of these companies they haven't reported yet so we don't have full visibility on their business outlook but we show the same data for the most recent survey the red line that you see there is the top 10 cutoff point and you can see splunk which didn't make the cut in april is back on the four-star list it's very possible buyers took a pause last quarter and focused attention on work from home but splunk continues to impress as it shifts toward the subscription model that we've talked about in the past splunk has a very strong hold on the sim space but everyone wants a piece of splunk especially some of the traditional firewall companies who they're seeing their hardware business dying so we're watching the competition from these players but also some other players like tennable now proof point fell off the four-star list because its net score didn't make the top ten crowdstrike cyber arc and zscaler also fell back because they dropped below the top 10 in shared in but we still really like these companies and expect them to continue to do well you know it could be some anomalies in the survey but we're trying to be as transparent as possible with you share the data listen to it interpret it and really adjust our models accordingly each quarter now let me make a few points and try to interpret what might be happening here first i want to point out octa pops to the top of the net score ranking overtaking crowdstrike's momentum from the last survey now one customer in the financial services sector told eric bradley on a recent then we're seeing amazing things from octa but the traditional firewall companies are stepping into identity they may not be best of breed but they have a level of integration and that's appealing to this individual this person also specifically called out palo alto and fortinet is trying to encroach on that space so keep your eyes on that now crowdstrike has declined noticeably which surprised us z z scalar is actually showing more momentum relative to the last survey so that's a positive palo alto and microsoft are consistently holding serve and continue to be leaders proof point and cyber arc are showing a bit of a velocity drop and sales point and tenable are also catching our attention in this survey and of course sales sale point which is identity management had a great quarter and reinstituted its guidance giving us the benefit of hindsight on its performance so it was actually pretty easy to give them two stars now just a side note by the way we've cut the data here with those companies that have more than 50 mentions in the sector we didn't do that the first time we did this we allowed companies with less than 50. so we're trying to tighten that up a bit so we still maintain strongly that you're seeing cloud endpoint and identity as the big security themes here csos need tools to be responsive they don't want to just get an alert secops pros would rather immediately shut off access and risk pissing off a user than getting hacked and companies are increasingly turning to ai to detect and they're relying on automation to remediate or protect and fence off critical resources let's now look at the two players or players in our two-dimensional view followers of this program know that we like to plot vendors within a sector across two of our favorite metrics net score or spending momentum which is a simple metric that tracks those spending more versus less on the technology and market share which measu measures a vendor's pervasiveness in the data set and it's calculated by taking the number of mentions a vendor gets within a sector divided by the total responses what we show here are the key security players that we've highlighted over the last several quarters let me start with microsoft microsoft has consistently performed well in the security sector as well as other parts of the etr taxonomy as you know they have a huge presence in the survey which is indicated on the horizontal axis and you can see they have a very solid net score which is shown on the y-axis impressive for a company their size now one interesting thing is you don't see aws in this chart and it's because aws and microsoft at least so far have somewhat different strategies with respect to security microsoft with its long application software history and sas presence across office 365 and sharepoint etc with active directory has been really focused on selling security solutions to directly protect its apps they have offerings like defender atp which is advanced threat protection sentinel which is microsoft sim cloud offering azure identity access management and the company's really going hard after this space now aws of course prioritizes security but they don't show an etr data set the same way microsoft does it's almost like aws is hiding in plain sight look aws has always put a great deal of emphasis on security and securing its infrastructure like the s3 buckets and it's you know it announced iam for ec2 way back in 2012. and last year at its reinforced conference you saw an impressive focus on security in a burgeoning security ecosystem in fact when you think of getting started in aws you really think about three things ec2 s3 and iam so i'd expect to see aws really become more prominent over time in the data set now i'll spend a minute talking about octa for the first time since we've been analyzing the security space with etr data octa has the highest net score at 58 percent it had consistently been crowdstrike with this moniker and the momentum lead the company though is dropped in this quarter survey and that's something that we're watching and by the way we're not implying that octa and crowdstrike are direct competitors they're not now as you can see nonetheless that crowdstrike z scalar and sales point sale sale point show very elevated net scores and we've plotted tenable here which is also showing some strength so you can see the respective positions of proof point and fortinet these are more mature companies they were founded in the early part of the century so you'd expect them to have somewhat lower net scores given their history and maturity and then there's cisco they've got a huge presence in the data and big in security cisco's doing really well in that space it consistently grows its security business in the double digits each quarter and it's a real feather in the cisco portfolio cap this is important because cisco's traditional hardware business continues to come under pressure splunk we talked about a lot and it's no surprise at their leadership position but i want to talk a little bit more about palo alto networks here's a company that we've talked about quite a bit in the past they are a tier one player in security they got great service csos want to work with them because they are thought leaders they're like a gold standard and have an impressive portfolio of great solutions but their traditional firewall business is coming under pressure for the reasons that we discussed earlier now palo alto has expanded its portfolio into the cloud and with prisma the company's suite of security services it will maintain a leadership position in our view but palo alto networks as we've discussed had some missteps with its product transition its sales execution and some of some challenges with its pricing models and it hurt their stock price but we've always said that they would work through these issues and that that was a buying opportunity the other thing about palo alto is you know they're considered the expensive choice you got to pay for that gold standard but that's what customers you know will tell us and so you're paying up for those top tier offerings but that's a sort of two-edged sword for palo alto here's an example why people often compare fortinet to palo alto and as we've shared in previous segments the valuation divergence between palo alto and fortinet where the the latter was making a smoother transition to its future and people often tell us that fortinet well you know maybe it's considered not as elite as palo alto they are a value choice their stuff just works and fortinet is a great alternative to palo alto and that has served them very well now let's take a closer look at the valuations of some of these companies we started off this segment by saying that the pandemic has affected every sector and especially cyber security so the next chart that we're showing here is the progression of key valuation metrics since earlier this year what we show are the valuations of nine of the companies in the sector since mid-february the data tracks their respective valuations their revenue multiples their growth rates in both value and revenue revenue growth is shown in the last column for the most recent quarterly report now the companies in red have yet to report the report any day now so he said i'm flying a little bit blind here and we'll have to take a look after the earnings to see how the survey data aligns with the actual results but let me make a few points here first here's the s p in nasdaq performance you see it in february in june and august pandemic recession what are you talking about you'd never know it looking at this data the nasdaq especially is up 14 said since mid february which is quite astounding next i want to come back to the discussion about palo alto and fortinet fortinet already has reported this quarter and palo alto has not but you can see based on the revenue multiples highlighted in red that the valuation divergence is starting to shrink a little bit and we'll see if that holds up after palo alto reports now the big eye popper in this chart is the valuation increases from february to august for octa crowdstrike and z scalar 52 67 and 104 percent increase respectively now you can't say we didn't warn you that these companies were all well positioned when we reported last year and in our january episode but i did say actually to be honest in the last episode that these three i thought were getting a little expensive that was a couple months ago and since then they've continued to run up so if you've been waiting for an entry point based on my advice well i'm sorry for that but look at the revenue multiples look at the expansion in the orange octa goes from 34x to 52x crowdstrike from 39x to 66x z scalar 25x to 43x i mean wow let's see what happens after these three report by this time i would have hoped that they'd taken a little breather maybe over the summer and you could have jumped in to these stocks but they just keep going up and despite the decline in net score for crowdstrike i still really like all three of these companies and feel that they're very well positioned from a product standpoint and customer feedback perspective and finally i want to mention sale point which we said last time was one to watch sale point crushed its quarter bringing in some large deals and providing forward guidance nearly a 50 percent valuation increase since february in a revenue multiple expansion from last quarter where the street last quarter wasn't really thrilled with their numbers but identity management is hot and so now is sales point from the streets perspective the last thing i'll say here is watch the growth rates expectations are very high for some of these companies and the street will cream any of them that misses now that may be your opportunity to jump in because i like these companies i think they're disruptors but as always do your research and watch out for the big whales trying to freeze the markets on these guys all right let's wrap up we've covered a lot of ground today and surf the landscape a little bit so look the trend is plain as day the move to sas is entrenched and by the way this isn't necessarily all good news for buyers cios and cfos tell me that the dark side of capex to opex is unpredictable bills but the flexibility and business value gained is outweighing the downside and every vendor in this space is transitioning into a sas and annual recurring revenue model we believe the remote work trend is here to stay organizations are re-architecting their business around work from home and we think that they're seeing some real benefits they've made investments and it's driving new modes of work and productivity they're not just going to throw away those investments why should they what just to go back to the old way it's not going to happen and if we as we've said previously look the internet it's like the new private network so you've got a question vpns and sd-wan they start to look like stop gaps and of course you know the cloud endpoint security cloud-based iam they are clearly winning in the marketplace you know we're also seeing new security regimes emerge where the cso and the secops team are not this island we we've seen even some csos falling back under the cio which used to be taboo he used to be thought of that's like the fox guarding the hen house but this idea of shared responsibility is not just between the cloud providers and the secops teams because security is a board level priority everyone in the business is becoming more aware more attuned and despite the millennials fascination with and undotted courage when it comes to tick tock i digress now the last two points are interesting i remember reading a post by john oltzek who was an esg security analyst and he predicted last year that integrated suites would win out over the buffet of point products on the market and you know generally i i agreed with that assessment but look at least in the near term and probably mid-term that doesn't seem to be happening as we we've seen these hot companies really take off the ones that we've highlighted now these companies have ambitions beyond selling products and they would bristle at me lumping them into point products their boards are going after platform plays so they're on a collision course with each other and the big guys this should be fun to watch because the big integrated companies are well funded they got great cash flow they got large customer bases and and i've said they're not going down without a fight so i would expect eventually there's going to be more of an equilibrium to what seems to be right now a bifurcated and unbalanced market today so you're going to see more m a activity expect that however at these valuations some of these companies that we've highlighted they're becoming acquisition proof as such they'd better keep innovating or they're going to be in big trouble all right that's it for today remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe i publish weekly on wikibon.com we've added in the wikibon menu bar a breaking analysis link that has all the episodes in there i also publish on siliconangle.com so check that out and please do comment on my linkedin posts don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action get in touch on twitter i'm at d vellante or email me at david.vellante at siliconangle.com this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr thanks for watching everybody be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> Woman: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting without leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to the special CUBE conversation, I'm John Furrier, host theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California, and doing a remote interview in our quarantine studio where we're getting the stories out there and sharing the content during the time of crisis when we're sheltering in place, as we get through this and get through the other side of the new normal. It's not necessarily normal, but it'll certainly create some normalcy around some of the new work at home, but also cybersecurity, I want to bring in a special guest who's going to talk with me about the impact of COVID-19 on cybersecurity, work at home, work in general, and also businesses practices. So, welcome Bill Welsh, who's the CEO of IronNet, who has taken over the helm run of the operations with General Keith Alexander, CUBE alumni as well, former NSA and former Cyber Command who's now leading a new innovative company called IronNet, which is deploying something really clever, but also something really realistic around cybersecurity so, Bill, thanks for joining me. >> Hey John, thanks for being with you. >> So, obviously, the COVID-19 crisis has created, essentially, a lot of exposure to the real world and, in general, around what it's like to work at home. Obviously, the economy's are crippled. This is an invisible threat. I've been chirping on Twitter and saying we've been fighting a digital war for a long time. There's been, the Internet has provided nation states the opportunity to attack folks using other mechanisms, open source and others, but if you look at this COVID-19, whether it's a bio weapon or not, it has crippled the country in the United States and caused crippling around the world, but it's just a threat and causing disruption, this is almost like a nuke, if you will, digital nuke. This is changing the game. You guys are in the cyber intelligence, cybersecurity area, what's your take on all of this and what are you hearing? >> Well I agree with you, John, I think that this is the invisible enemy, and as you know, right now with that going on, there's going to be adversaries that are going to take advantage of it. You see right now in some of the nation states where they're looking at opportunities to use this, to go after other countries, maybe just to test and see what their vulnerabilities are. You're seeing some activity overseas with nation states where they're looking at some of the military incursions, they're thinking about possible weaknesses with this invisible enemy. You know, it's affecting us in so many ways, whether it's economic, financial, our healthcare system, our supply chains, whether it's our, the supplies and groceries that we get to our people, so these are all challenging times that the adversaries are not going to just sit back and say oh well, you're in a crisis right now, we'll wait for the crisis to be alieved, we are now going to take advantage of it. >> And certainly the death toll is also the human impact as well, this is real world. This is something that we can have a longer conversation on, the time when we get more data in, and we'll certainly want to track this new, kind of digital warfare kind of paradigm, whether it's bio and or packets in cybersecurity, but the real impact has been this at scale exposure of problems and opportunities. For instance, IT folks were telling me that they underprovisioned their VPN access, now it's 100% everyone's at home. That's a disruption, that's not a hurricane, that's not a flood, this is now a new distraction to their operations. Other folks are seeing more hacks and more surface area, more threats from the old side getting hit. This has certainly impacted the cyber, but also people's anxiety at home. How are you guys looking at this, what are you guys doing, what's going on IronNet right now around cyber and COVID-19. >> Yeah, and what we're seeing right now is that our customers are seeing increasing awareness of their employees to understand what is going on around them and one of the things that we formed the company was the ability to assist enterprises of all sizes to collectively defend against threats that target their industries. We believe that collective defense is our collective responsibility. And it can't be just about technology, it's about some of the IT systems you talked about, being able to leverage them together. When I look at our top energy companies that we partner with, these individuals have great operators, but when you think about it, they have operators just for their company. What we're able to do within our environment, in our Iron Dome, is bring all that in together. We bring the human element and the IT element in order to help them solve positive outcomes for their industries. >> I want to dig into that because I think one of the things that I'm seeing coming out of this trend, post-pandemic is going to be the real emphasis on community. You're seeing people realizing through, whether it's doing Zoomification or Cubification, doing CUBE interviews and zooming and talking, I think you're going to see this element of I could do better, I can contribute either to society or to the collective at whole, and I think this collective idea you guys have with Iron Dome is very relevant because I think people are going to say wow, if I contribute, we might not have this kind of crisis again. This is something that's new, you guys have been on this collective thing with Iron Dome for a long time. I think this is pretty clever and I think it's going to be very relevant. Can you explain the Iron Dome collective, intelligence paradigm in the vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. And just to back up a little bit, what I will tell you is that we observed, as far as the problem statement, was that cyber is an element of national power, and people are using it to achieve their political, economic, and military objectives and now what you're seeing is are there other ways, cause while this COVID-19 may or may not have been anything as far as a bio-weapon, now others will see, well here's a way to bring down a country or an economy or something like that. We're also seeing that the cyber attacks are getting more and more destructive, whether it's WannaCry or NotPetya, we're also seeing the toolkits being more advanced, we're seeing how slow the response is by their cyber tools, so what we've looked at is we said wait, stop defending in isolation. That's what enterprises have been doing, they've been defending in isolation, no sharing, no collective intelligence as I would call it. And what we've been able to do is bring the power of those people to come together to collectively defend when something happens. So instead of having one security operation center defending a company, you can bring five or six or seven to defend the entire energy grid, this is one example. And over in Asia, we have the same thing. We have one of our largest customers over there, they have 450 companies, so if you think about it, 450 companies times the number of stock operators that they have in the security operation centers, you can think about the magnitude that we can bring the bearer of the arms, the warriors, to attack this crisis. >> So you're getting more efficiency, more acute response than before, so you got speed. So what you're saying is the collective intelligence provides what value? Speed, quality-- Yeah, it's at cloud scale, network speed, you get the benefit of all these operators, individuals that have incredible backgrounds in offensive and defensive operator experience including the people that we have, and then our partnership with either national governments or international governments that are allies, to make sure that we're sharing that collective intelligence so they can take action because what we're doing is we're making sure that we analyze the traffic, we're bringing the advanced analytics, we're bringing the expert systems, and we're bringing the experts to there, both at a technology level and also a personnel level. >> You know, General Alexander, one of the architects behind the vision here, who's obviously got a background in the military, NSA, Cyber Command, et cetera, uses the analogy of an airport radar, and I think that's a great metaphor because you need to have real-time communications on anything going on in as telemetry to what's landing or approaching or almost like landing that airplane, so he uses that metaphor and he says if there's no communication but it lags, you don't have it. He was using that example. Do you guys still use that example or can you explain further this metaphor? >> Absolutely, and I think another example that we have seen some of our customers really, in our prospects and partners really embrace is this concept of an immersive visualization, almost gaming environment. You look at what is happening now where people have the opportunity, even at home because of COVID-19, my teenage boys are spending way too much time probably on Call of Duty and Fortnite and that, but apply that same logic to cyber. Apply that logic to where you could have multiple players, multiple individuals, you can invite people in, you can invite others that might have subject matter expertise, you might be able to go and invite some of the IT partners that you have whether it's other companies to come in that are partners of yours, to help solve a problem and make it visualized, immersive, and in a gaming environment, and that is what we're doing in our Iron Dome. >> I think that's compelling and I've always loved the vision of abstracting away gaming to real world problems because it's very efficient, those kids are great, and the new Call of Duty came out so everyone's-- >> And they're also the next generation, they're the next generation of individuals that are going to be taking over security for us. So this is a great in mind... Cause this is something they already know, something they're already practicing, and something they're experts at and if you look at how the military is advancing, they've gone from having these great fighter pilots to putting people in charge of drones. It's the same thing with us is that possibility of having a cyber avatar go and fight that initiative is going to be something that we're doing. >> I think you guys are really rethinking security and this brings up my next topic I want to get your thoughts on is this crisis of COVID-19 has really highlighted old and new, and it's really kind of exposed again, at scale because it's an at scale problem, everyone's been forced to shelter in place and it exposes everything from deliveries to food to all the services and you can see what's important, what's not in life and it exposes kind of the old and new. So you have a lot of old antiquated, outdated systems and you have new emerging ones. How do you see those two sides of the street, old and new, what's emerging, what's your vision on what you think will be important post-pandemic? >> Well, I think the first thing is the individuals that are really the human element. So one, we have to make sure that individuals at home are, have all the things that they require in order to be successful and drive great outcomes, because I believe that the days of going into an office and sitting into a cube is yes, that is the old norm, but the new norm is individuals who either at home or on a plane, on a train, on a bus, or wherever they might be, practicing and being a part of it. So I think that the one thing we have to get our arms around is the ability to invite people into this experience no matter where they are and meet them where they are, so that's number one. Number two is making sure that those networks are available and that they're high speed, right? That we are making sure that they're not being used necessarily for streaming of Netflix, but being able to solve the cyber attacks. So there might be segmentation, there might be, as you said, this collective intelligent sharing that'll go across these entities. >> You know, it's interesting, Bill, you're bringing up something that we've been riffing on and I want to just expose that to you and kind of think out loud here. You're mentioning the convergence of physical, hybrid, 100% virtual as it kind of comes together. And then community and collective intelligence, we just talked about that, certainly relevant, you can see more movement on that side and more innovation. But the other thing that comes out of the woodwork and I want to get your thoughts on this is the old IoT Edge, Internet of things. Because if you think about that convergence of operational technologies and Internet technologies, ID, you now have that world's been going on for awhile, so obviously, you got to have telemetry on physical devices, you got to bring it in IT, so as you guys have this Iron Dome, collective view, hallux of view of things, it's really physical and virtual coming together. The virtualization-- >> It's all the above, it's all the above. The whole concept of IoT and OT and whether it's a device that's sitting in a solar wind panel or whether it's a device that's sitting in your network, it could be the human element, or it could actually be a device, that is where you require that cyber posture, that ability to do analytics on it, the ability to respond. And the ability to collectively see all of it, and that goes to that whole visualization I talked to you about, is being able to see your entire network, you can't protect something if you can't see it, and that's something that we've done across IronDome, and with our customers and prospects and with IronDefense, so it's something that absolutely is part of the things we're seeing in the cyber world. >> I want to get your reaction to some commentary that we've been having, Dave Vellante and myself on the team, and we were talking about how events have been shut down, the physical space, the venues where they have events. Obviously, we go to a lot of events with theCUBE, you know that. So, obviously that's kind of our view, but when you think about Internet of things, you think about collective intelligence with community, whether it's central to gamification or Iron Dome that you're innovating on, as we go through the pandemic, there's going to be a boomerang back, we think, to the importance of the physical space, cause at some point, we're going to get back to the real world, and so, the question is what operational technology, what version of learnings do we get from this shelter in place that gets applied to the physical world? This is the convergence of physical and virtual. We see as a big way, want to get your reaction to that. >> I absolutely agree with you, I think that we're going to learn some incredible lessons in so many different ways whether it's healthcare, financial, but I also, believe that's what you said, is that convergence of physical and virtual will become almost one in the same. We will see individuals that will leverage the physical when they need to and leverage the virtual when they need to. And I think that that's something that we will see more and more of of companies looking at how they actually respond and support their customer base. You know, some might decide to have more individuals in an at-home basis, to support a continuity of operations, some might decide that we're going to have some physical spaces and not others, and then we're going to leverage physical IT and some virtual IT, especially the cloud infrastructures are going to become more and more valuable as we've seen within our IronDome infrastructure. >> You know, we were riffing the other day in the remote interviews, theCUBE is going virtual, and we were joking that Amazon Web Services was really created through the trend of virtualization. I mean, VMware and the whole server virtualization created the opportunity for Amazon to abstract and create value. And we think that this next wave is going to be this pandemic has woken us up to this remote, virtual contribution, and it might create a lot of opportunities, for us, for instance, virtual CUBE, for virtual business. I'm sure you, as the CEO of IronNet, are thinking about how you guys recover post-pandemic, is it going to be a different world, are you going to have a mix of virtual, digital, integrated into your physical, whether it's how you market your products and engage customers to solving technical problems. This is a new management challenge, and it's an opportunity if you get it right, it could be a headwind or a tailwind, depending on how you look at it. So I want to get your thoughts on this virtualization post-pandemic management structure, management philosophy, obviously, dislocation with spacial economics, I get that and I always go to work in the office much but, beyond that, management style, posture, incentives. >> Yes, I think that there's a lot of things unpacked there. I mean, one is it is going to be about a lot of more communication. You know, I will tell you that since we have gone into this quarantine, we're holding weekly all hands, every Friday, all in a virtual environment. I think that the transparency will be even more. You know, one of the things that I'm most encouraged by and inspired by is the productivity. I will tell you, getting access to individuals has gotten easier and easier for us. The ability to get people into this virtual environment. They're not spending hours upon hours on commuting or flying on planes or going different places, and it doesn't mean that that won't be an important element of business, but I think it's going to give time back to individuals to focus on what is the most important priorities for the companies that they're driving. So this is an opportunity, I will tell you, our productivity has increased exponentially. We've seen more and more meetings, where more and more access to very high level individuals, who have said we want to hear what you guys are doing, and they have the time to do it now instead of jumping on a plane and wasting six hours and not being productive. >> It's interesting, it's also a human element too, you can hear babies crying, kids playing, dogs barking, you kind of laugh and chuckle in the old days, but now this is a humanization piece of it, and that should foster real communities, so I think... Obviously, we're going to be watching this virtualization of communities, collective intelligence and congratulations, I think Iron Dome, and iron offense, obviously which is core product, I think your Iron Dome is a paradigm that is super relevant, you guys are visionaries on this and I think it's turning out to be quite the product, so I want to congratulate you on that. Thanks for-- >> Thank you, John. Thanks for your time today and stay safe. >> Bill, thanks for joining us and thanks for your great insights on cyber COVID-19, and we'll follow up more on this trend of bio weaponry and kind of the trajectory of how cyber and scale cloud is going to shape how we defend and take offense in the future on how to defend our country and to make the world a safer place. I'm John Furrier, you're watching theCUBE here and our remote interviews in our quarantine studio in Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (lively music)

>>Bye from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hey, welcome back. Everyone's keeps coverage here in San Francisco at the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm John, your host, as cybersecurity goes to the next generation as the new cloud scale, cyber threats are out there, the real impact a company's business and society will be determined by the industry. This technology and the people that a cube alumni here, caramel Jaffer, SVP, senior vice president of strategy and corporate development for iron net. Welcome back. Thanks to Shawn. Good to be here. Thanks for having so iron net FC general Keith Alexander and you got to know new CEO of there. Phil Welsh scaler and duo knows how to scale up a company. He's right. Iron is doing really well. The iron dome, the vision of collaboration and signaling. Congratulations on your success. What's a quick update? >> Well look, I mean, you know, we have now built the capability to share information across multiple companies, multiple industries with the government in real time at machine speed. >>Really bringing people together, not just creating collected security or clip to defense, but also collaborating real time to defend one another. So you're able to divide and conquer Goliath, the enemy the same way they come after you and beat them at their own game. >> So this is the classic case of offense defense. Most corporations are playing defense, whack-a-mole, redundant, not a lot of efficiencies, a lot of burnout. Exactly. Not a lot of collaboration, but everyone's talking about the who the attackers are and collaborating like a team. Right? And you guys talk about this mission. Exactly. This is really the new way to do it. It has, the only way it works, >> it is. And you know, you see kids doing it out there when they're playing Fortnite, right? They're collaborating in real time across networks, uh, to, you know, to play a game, right? You can imagine that same construct when it comes to cyber defense, right? >>There's no reason why one big company, a second big company in a small company can't work together to identify all the threats, see that common threat landscape, and then take action on it. Trusting one another to take down the pieces they have folk to focus on and ultimately winning the battle. There's no other way a single company is gonna be able defend itself against a huge decency that has virtually unlimited resources and virtually unlimited human capital. And you've got to come together, defend across multiple industries, uh, collectively and collaboratively. >> Do you mean, we talked about this last time and I want to revisit this and I think it's super important. I think it's the most important story that's not really being talked about in the industry. And that is that we were talking last time about the government protects businesses. If someone dropped troops on the ground in your neighborhood, the government would protect you digitally. >>That's not happening. So there's really no protection for businesses. Do they build their own militia? Do they build their own army? Who was going to, who's going to be their heat shield? So this is a big conversation and a big, it brings a question. The role of the government. We're going to need a digital air force. We're going to need a digital army, Navy, Navy seals. We need to have that force, and this has to be a policy issue, but in the short term, businesses and individuals are sitting out there being attacked by sophisticated mission-based teams of hackers and nation States, right? Either camouflaging or hiding, but attacking still. This is a huge issue. What's going on? Are people talking about this in D C well, >> John, look not enough. People are talking about it, right? And forget DC. We need to be talking about here, out here in the Silicon Valley with all these companies here at the RSA floor and bring up the things you're bringing up because this is a real problem we're facing as a nation. >>The Russians aren't coming after one company, one state. They're coming after our entire election infrastructure. They're coming after us as a nation. The Chinese maybe come after one company at a time, but their goal is to take our electoral properties, a nation, repurpose it back home. And when the economic game, right, the Iranians, the North Koreans, they're not focused on individual actors, but they are coming after individual actors. We can't defend against those things. One man, one woman, one company on an Island, one, one agency, one state. We've got to come together collectively, right? Work state with other States, right? If we can defend against the Russians, California might be really good at it. Rhode Island, small States can be real hard, defends against the Russians, but if California, Rhode Island come together, here's the threats. I see. Here's what it's. You see share information, that's great. Then we collaborate on the defense and work together. >>You take these threats, I'll take those threats and now we're working as a team, like you said earlier, like those kids do when they're playing fortnight and now we're changing the game. Now we're really fighting the real fight. >> You know, when I hear general Keith Alexander talking about his vision with iron net and what you guys are doing, I'm inspired because it's simply put, we have a mission to protect our nation, our people, and a good businesses, and he puts it into kind of military, military terms, but in reality, it's a simple concept. Yeah, we're being attacked, defend and attack back. Just basic stuff. But to make it work as the sharing. So I got to ask you, I'm first of all, I love the, I love what he has, his vision. I love what you guys are doing. How real are we? What's the progression? >>Where are we on the progress bar of that vision? Well, you know, a lot's changed to the last year and a half alone, right? The threats gotten a lot, a lot more real to everybody, right? Used to be the industry would say to us, yeah, we want to share with the government, but we want something back for, right. We want them to show us some signal to today. Industry is like, look, the Chinese are crushing us out there, right? We can beat them at a, at some level, but we really need the governor to go do its job too. So we'll give you the information we have on, on an anonymized basis. You do your thing. We're going to keep defending ourselves and if you can give us something back, that's great. So we've now stood up in real time of DHS. We're sharing with them huge amounts of data about what we're seeing across six of the top 10 energy companies, some of the biggest banks, some of the biggest healthcare companies in the country. >>Right? In real time with DHS and more to come on that more to come with other government agencies and more to come with some our partners across the globe, right? Partners like those in Japan, Singapore, Eastern Europe, right? Our allies in the middle East, they're all the four lenses threat. We can bring their better capability. They can help us see what's coming at us in the future because as those enemies out there testing the weapons in those local areas. I want to get your thoughts on the capital markets because obviously financing is critical and you're seeing successful venture capital formulas like forge point really specialized funds on cyber but not classic industry formation sectors. Like it's not just security industry are taking a much more broader view because there's a policy implication is that organizational behavior, this technology up and down the stack. So it's a much broad investment thesis. >>What's your view of that? Because as you do, you see that as a formula and if so, what is this new aperture or this new lens of investing to be successful in funding? Companies will look, it's really important what companies like forge point are doing. Venture capital funds, right? Don Dixon, Alberta Pez will land. They're really innovating here. They've created a largest cybersecurity focused fund. They just closed the recently in the world, right? And so they really focus on this industry. Partners like, Kleiner Perkins, Ted Schlein, Andrea are doing really great work in this area. Also really important capital formation, right? And let's not forget other funds. Ron Gula, right? The founder of tenable started his own fund out there in DC, in the DMV area. There's a lot of innovation happening this country and the funding on it's critical. Now look, the reality is the easy money's not going to be here forever, right? >>It's the question is what comes when that inevitable step back. We don't. Nobody likes to talk about it. I said the guy who who bets on the other side of the craps game in Vegas, right? You don't wanna be that guy, but let's be real. I mean that day will eventually come. And the question is how do you bring some of these things together, right? Bring these various pieces together to really create long term strategies, right? And that's I think what's really innovative about what Don and Alberto are doing is they're building portfolio companies across a range of areas to create sort of an end to end capability, right? Andrea is doing things like that. Ted's doing stuff like that. It's a, that's really innovation. The VC market, right? And we're seeing increased collaboration VC to PE. It's looking a lot more similar, right? And now we're seeing innovative vehicles like stacks that are taking some of these public sort of the reverse manner, right? >>There's a lot of interests. I've had to be there with Hank Thomas, the guys chief cyber wrenches. So a lot of really cool stuff going on in the financing world. Opportunities for young, smart entrepreneurs to really move out in this field and to do it now. And money's still silver. All that hasn't come as innovation on the capital market side, which is awesome. Let's talk about the ecosystem in every single market sector that I've been over, my 30 year career has been about a successful entrepreneurship check, capital two formation of partnerships. Okay. You're on the iron net, front lines here. As part of that ecosystem, how do you see the ecosystem formula developing? Is it the same kind of model? Is it a little bit different? What's your vision of the ecosystem? Look, I mean partnerships channel, it's critical to every cyber security company. You can't scale on your own. >>You've got to do it through others, right? I was at a CrowdStrike event the other day. 91% of the revenue comes from the channel. That's an amazing number. You think about that, right? It's you look at who we're trying to talk about partnering with. We're talking about some of the big cloud players. Amazon, Microsoft, right? Google, right on the, on the vendor side. Pardon me? Splunk crashes, so these big players, right? We want to build with them, right? We want to work with them because there's a story to tell here, right? When we were together, the AECOS through self is defendant stronger. There's no, there's no anonymity here, right? It's all we bring a specialty, you bring specialty, you work together, you run out and go get the go get the business and make companies safer. At the end of the day, it's all about protecting the ecosystem. What about the big cloud player? >>Cause he goes two big mega trends. Obviously cloud computing and scale, right? Multi-cloud on the horizon, hybrids, kind of the bridge between single public cloud and multi-cloud and then AI you've got the biggies are generally will be multiple generations of innovation and value creation. What's your vision on the impact of the big waves that are coming? Well, look, I mean cloud computing is a rate change the world right? Today you can deploy capability and have a supercomputer in your fingertips in in minutes, right? You can also secure that in minutes because you can update it in real time. As the machine is functioning, you have a problem, take it down, throw up a new virtual machine. These are amazing innovations that are creating more and more capability out there in industry. It's game changing. We're happy, we're glad to be part of that and we ought to be helping defend that new amazing ecosystem. >>Partnering with companies like Microsoft. They didn't AWS did, you know, you know, I'm really impressed with your technical acumen. You've got a good grasp of the industry, but also, uh, you have really strong on the societal impact policy formulation side of government and business. So I want to get your thoughts for the young kids out there that are going to school, trying to make sense of the chaos that's going on in the world, whether it's DC political theater or the tech theater, big tech and in general, all of the things with coronavirus, all this stuff going on. It's a, it's a pretty crazy time, but a lot of work has to start getting done that are new problems. Yeah. What is your advice as someone who's been through the multiple waves to the young kids who have to figure out what half fatigue, what problems are out there, what things can people get their arms around to work on, to specialize in? >>What's your, what's your thoughts and expertise on that? Well, John, thanks for the question. What I really like about that question is is we're talking about what the future looks like and here's what I think the future looks like. It's all about taking risks. Tell a lot of these young kids out there today, they're worried about how the world looks right? Will America still be strong? Can we, can we get through this hard time we're going through in DC with the world challenges and what I can say is this country has never been stronger. We may have our own troubles internally, but we are risk takers and we always win. No matter how hard it gets them out of how bad it gets, right? Risk taking a study that's building the American blood. It's our founders came here taking a risk, leaving Eagle to come here and we've succeeded the last 200 years. >>There is no question in my mind that trend will continue. So the young people out there, I don't know what the future has to hold. I don't know if the new tape I was going to be, but you're going to invent it. And if you don't take the risks, we're not succeed as a nation. And that's what I think is key. You know, most people worry that if they take too many risks, they might not succeed. Right? But the reality is most people you see around at this convention, they all took risks to be here. And even when they had trouble, they got up, they dust themselves off and they won. And I believe that everybody in this country, that's what's amazing about the station is we have this opportunity to, to try, if we fail to get up again and succeed. So fail fast, fail often, and crush it. >>You know, some of the best innovations have come from times where you had the cold war, you had, um, you had times where, you know, the hippie revolution spawn the computer. So you, so you have the culture of America, which is not about regulation and stunting growth. You had risk-taking, you had entrepreneurship, but yet enough freedom for business to operate, to solve new challenges, accurate. And to me the biggest imperative in my mind is this next generation has to solve a lot of those new questions. What side of the street is the self driving cars go on? I see bike lanes in San Francisco, more congestion, more more cry. All this stuff's going on. AI could be a great enabler for that. Cyber security, a direct threat to our country and global geopolitical landscape. These are big problems. State and local governments, they're not really tech savvy. They don't really have a lot ID. >>So what do they do? How do they serve their, their constituents? You know, look John, these are really important and hard questions, but we know what has made technology so successful in America? What's made it large, successful is the governor state out of the way, right? Industry and innovators have had a chance to work together and do stuff and change the world, right? You look at California, you know, one of the reasons California is so successful and Silicon Valley is so dynamic. You can move between jobs and we don't enforce non-compete agreements, right? Because you can switch jobs and you can go to that next higher value target, right? That shows the value of, you know, innovation, creating innovation. Now there's a real tendency to say, when we're faced with challenges, well, the government has to step in and solve that problem, right? The Silicon Valley and what California's done, what technology's done is a story about the government stayed out and let innovators innovate, and that's a real opportunity for this nation. >>We've got to keep on down that path, even when it seemed like the easier answer is, come on in DC, come on in Sacramento, fix this problem for us. We have demonstrated as a country that Americans and individual are good at solve these problems. We should allow them to do that and innovate. Yeah. One of my passions is to kind of use technology and media to end communities to get to the truth faster. A lot of, um, access to smart minds out there, but young minds, young minds, uh, old minds, young minds though. It's all there. You gotta get the data out and that's going to be a big thing. That's the, one of the things that's changing is the dark arts of smear campaigns. The story of Bloomberg today, Oracle reveals funding for dark money, group biting, big tech internet accountability projects. Um, and so the classic astroturfing get the Jedi contract, Google WASU with Java. >>So articles in the middle of all this, but using them as an illustrative point. The lawyers seem to be running the kingdom right now. I know you're an attorney, so I'm recovering, recovering. I don't want to be offensive, but entrepreneurship cannot be stifled by regulation. Sarbanes Oxley slowed down a lot of the IPO shifts to the latest stage capital. So regulation, nest and every good thing. But also there's some of these little tactics out in the shadows are going to be revealed. What's the new way to get this straightened out in your mind? We'll look, in my view, the best solution for problematic speech or pragmatic people is more speech, right? Let's shine a light on it, right? If there are people doing shady stuff, let's talk about it's an outfit. Let's have it out in the open. Let's fight it out. At the end of the day, what America's really about is smart ideas. >>Winning. It's a, let's get the ideas out there. You know, we spent a lot of time, right now we're under attack by the Russians when it comes to our elections, right? We spent a lot of time harping at one another, one party versus another party. The president versus that person. This person who tells committee for zap person who tells committee. It's crazy when the real threat is from the outside. We need to get past all that noise, right? And really get to the next thing which is we're fighting a foreign entity on this front. We need to face that enemy down and stop killing each other with this nonsense and turn the lights on. I'm a big believer of if something can be exposed, you can talk about it. Why is it happening exactly right. This consequences with that reputation, et cetera. You got it. >>Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate your insight. Um, I want to just ask you one final question cause you look at, look at the industry right now. What is the most important story that people are talking about and what is the most important story that people should be talking about? Yeah. Well look, I think the one story that's out there a lot, right, is what's going on in our politics, what's going on in our elections. Um, you know, Chris Krebs at DHS has been out here this week talking a lot about the threat that our elections face and the importance about States working with one another and States working with the federal government to defend the nation when it comes to these elections in November. Right? We need to get ahead of that. Right? The reality is it's been four years since 2016 we need to do more. That's a key issue going forward. What are the Iranians North Koreans think about next? They haven't hit us recently. We know what's coming. We got to get ahead of that. I'm going to come again at a nation, depending on staff threat to your meal. Great to have you on the QSO is great insight. Thanks for coming on sharing your perspective. I'm John furrier here at RSA in San Francisco for the cube coverage. Thanks for watching.

(bouncy music) >> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. Live here in Barcelona it's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2019. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante, my co-host for the week, and Stu Miniman, who's also here doing interviews. Our next two guests is Mike Bundy, Senior Director of Global Cisco Alliance with Pure Storage, and Z, who's in charge of product strategy for Cisco. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having us here. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you. >> We're in the DevNet zone. It's packed with people learning real use cases, rolling up their sleeves. Talk about the Cisco Pure relationship. How do you guys fit into all this? What's the alliance? >> You want to start? >> Sure. So, we have a partnership with Cisco, primarily around a solution called Flashstack in the converged infrastructure space. And most recently, we've evolved a new use-case and application together for artificial intelligence that Z's business unit have just released a new platform that works with Cisco and NVIDEA to accomplish customer application needs mainly in machine learning but all aspects of artificial intelligence, so. >> So AI is obviously a hot trend in machine learning but today at Cisco, the big story was not about the data center as much anymore as it's the data at the center of the value proposition which spans the on-premises, IoT edge, and multiple clouds so data now is everywhere. You've got to store it. It's going to be stored in the cloud, it's on-premise. So data at the center means a lot of things. You can program with it. It's got to be addressable. It has to be smart and aware and take advantage of the networking. So with all of that as the background, backdrop, what is the AI approach? How should people think about AI in context to storing data, using data? Not just moving packets from point A to point B, but you're storing it, you're pulling it out, you're integrating it into applications. A lot of moving parts there. What's the-- >> Yeah, you got a really good point here. When people think about machine learning, traditionally they just think about training. But we look at it as more than just training. It's the whole data pack line that starts with collecting the data, store the data, analyze the data, train the data, and then deploy it. And then put the data back. So it's really a very, it's a cycle there. It's where you need to consider how you actually collect the data from edge, how you store them, in the speed that you can, and give the data to the training side. So I believe when we work with Pure, we try to create this as a whole data pack line and think about the entire data movement and the storage need that we look at here. >> So we're in the DevNet zone and I'm looking at the machine learning with Python, ML Library, (mumbles) Flow, Appache Spark, a lot of this data science type stuff. >> Yup. >> But increasingly, AI is a workload that's going mainstream. But what are the trends that you guys are seeing in terms of traditional IT's involvement? Is it still sort of AI off on an island? What are you seeing there? >> So I'll take a guess, a stab at it. So really, every major company industry that we work with have AI initiatives. It's the core of the future for their business. What we're trying to do is partner with IT to get ahead of the large infrastructure demands that will come from those smaller, innovative projects that are in pilot mode so that they are a partner to the business and the data scientists rather than a laggard in the business, the way that sometimes the reputation that IT gets. We want to be the infrastructure, solid, like a cloud-like experience for the data scientists so they can worry more about the applications, the data, what it means to the business, and less about the infrastructure. >> Okay. And so you guys are trying to simplify that infrastructure, whether it's converged infrastructure, and other unifying approaches. Are you seeing the shift of that heavy lifting, of people now shifting resources to new workloads like AI? Maybe you could discuss what the trends are there? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think AI started with more like a data science experiment. You see a couple of data scientists experimenting. Now it's really getting into mainstream. More and more people are into that. And as, I apologize. >> Mike. >> Mike. >> Mike, can we restart that question? (all laughing) My deep apology. I need a GPU or something in my brain. I need to store that data better. >> You're on Fortnite. Go ahead. >> Yes, so as Mike has said earlier on, it's not just the data scientists. It's actually an IT challenge as well and I think with Cisco, what we're trying to do with Pure here is, you know that Cisco thing, we're saying, "We're a bridge." We want to bridge the gap between the data scientists and the IT and make it not just AI as an experiment but AI at scale, at production level, and be ready to actually create real impact with the technology infrastructure that we can enable. >> Mike, talk about Pure's position. You guys have announced Pure in the cloud? >> Yes. >> You're seeing that software focus. Software is the key here. >> Absolutely. >> You're getting into a software model. AI and machine learning, all this we're talking about is software. Data is now available to be addressed and managed in that software life cycle. How is the role of the software for you guys with converged infrastructure at the center of all the Cisco announcements. You were out on stage today with converged infrastructure to the edge. >> Yes, so, if you look at the platform that we built, it's referenced back, being called the Data Hub. The Data Hub has a very tight synergy with all the applications you're referring to: Spark, Tensor Flow, et cetera, et cetera, Cafe. So, we look at it as the next generation analytics and the platform has a super layer on top of all those applications because that's going to really make the integration possible for the data scientists so they can go quicker and faster. What we're trying to do underneath that is use the Data Hub that no matter what the size, whether it's small data, large data, transaction based or more bulk data warehouse type applications, the Data Hub and the FlashBlade solution underneath handle all of that very, very different and probably more optimized and easier than traditional legacy infrastructures. Even traditional, even Flash, from some of our competitors, because we built this purpose-built application for that. Not trying to go backwards in terms of technology. >> So I want to put both you guys on the spot for a question. We hear infrastructure as code going on many, many years since theCUBE started nine years ago. Infrastructure as code, now it's here. The network is programmable, the infrastructure is programmable, storage is programmable. When a customer or someone asks you, how is infrastructure, networks, and storage programmable and what do I do? I used to provision storage, I've got servers. I'm going to the cloud. What do I do? How do I become AI enabled so that I could program the infrastructure? How do you guys answer that question? >> So a lot of that comes to the infrastructure management layer. How do you actually, using policy and using the right infrastructure management to make the right configuration you want. And I think one thing from programmability is also flexibility. Instead of having just a fixed configuration, what we're doing with Pure here is really having that flexibility where you can put Pure storage, different kind of storage with different kind of compute that we have. No matter we're talking about two hour use, four hour use, that kind of compute power is different and can max with different storage, depending on what the customer use case is. So that flexibility driven to the programmability that is managed by the infrastructure management layer. And we're extending that. So Pure and Cisco's infrastructure management actually tying together. It's really single pane of glass within the side that we can actually manage both Pure and Cisco. That's the programmability that we're talking about. >> Your customers get Pure storage, end-to-end manageability? >> With the Cisco compute, it's a single pane of glass. >> Okay. >> So where do I buy? I want to get started. What do you got for me? (laughing) >> It's pretty simple. It's three basic components. Cisco Compute and a platform for machine learning that's powered by NVIDEA GPUs; Cisco FlashBlade, which is the Data Hub and storage component; and then network connectivity from the number one network provider in the world, from Cisco. It's very simple. >> And it's a SKU, it's a solution? >> Yup, it's very simple. It's data-driven. It's not tied to a specific SKU. It's more flexible than that so you have better optimization of the network. You don't buy a 1000 series X and then only use 50% of it. It's very customizable. >> Okay, do I can customize it for my, whatever, data science team or my IT workloads? >> Yes, and provision it for multi-purpose, same way a service provider would if you're a large IT organization. >> Trend around breaking silos has been discussed heavily. Can you talk about multiple clouds, on-premise in cloud and edge all coming together? How should companies think about their data architecture because silos are good for certain things, but to make multi-cloud work and all this end-to-end and intent-based networking and all the power of AI's around the corner, you got to have the data out there and it's got to be horizontally scalable, if you will. How do you break down those silos? What's your advice, is there a use case for an architecture? >> I think it's a classic example of how IT has evolved to not think just silos and be multi-cloud. So what we advocate is to have a data platform that transpires the entire community, whether it's development, test, engineering, production applications, and that runs holistically across the entire organization. That would include on-prem, it would include integration with the cloud because most companies now require that. So you can have different levels of high availability or lower cost if your data needs to be archived. So it's really building and thinking about the data as a platform across the company and not just silos for various applications. >> So replication never goes away. >> Never goes away. (laughing) >> It's going to be around for a long, long time. >> Dev Test never goes away either. >> Your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, so adding on top of that, we believe where your infrastructure should go is where the data goes. You want to follow where the data is and that's exactly why we want to partner with Pure here because we see a lot of the data are sitting today in the very important infrastructure which is built by Pure Storage and we want to make sure that we're not just building a silo box sitting there where you have to pour the data in there all the time, but actually connect to our server with Pure Storage in the most manageable way. And for IT, it's the same kind of manual layer. You're not thinking about, oh, I have to manage all this silo box, or the shadow IT that some data scientists would have under their desk. That's the least thing you want. >> And the other thing that came up in the key note today, which we've been saying on theCUBE, and all the experts reaffirm, is that moving data costs money. You've got latency costs and also just cost to move traffic around. So moving compute to the edge or moving compute to the data has been a big, hot trend. How has the compute equation changed? Because I've got storage. I'm not just moving packets around. I'm storing it, I'm moving it around. How does that change the compute? Does that put more emphasis on the compute? >> It's definitely putting a lot more emphasis on compute. I think it's where you want compute to happen. You can pull all the data and want it to happen in the center place. That's fine if that's the way you want to manage it. If you have already simplified the data, you want to put it in that's the way. If you want to do it at the edge, near where the data source is, you can also do the cleaning there. So we want to make sure that, no matter how you want to manage it, we have the portfolio that can actually help you to manage that. >> And it's alternative processors. You mentioned NVIDEA. >> Exactly. >> You guys are the first to do a deal with them. >> And other ways, too. You've got to take advantage of technology like Kubernetes, as an example. So you can move the containers where they need to be and have policy managers for the compute requirements and also storage, so that you don't have contention or data integrity issues. So embracing those technologies in a multi-cloud world is very, very essential. >> Mike, I want to ask you a question around customer trends. What are you seeing as a pattern from a customer standpoint, as they prepare for AI, and start re-factoring some of their IT and/or resources, is there a certain use-case that they set up with Pure in terms of how they set up their storage? Is it different by customer? Is there a common trend that you see? >> Yeah, there are some commonalities. Take financial services, quant-trading as an example. We have a number of customers that leverage our platform for that because it's very time-sensitive, high-availability data. So really, I think that the trend overall of that would be: step back, take a look at your data, and focus on, how can I correlate and organize that? And really get it ready so that whatever platform you use from a storage standpoint, you're thinking about all aspects of data and get it in a format, in a form, where you can manage and catalog, because that's kind of essential to the entire thing. >> It really highlights the key things that we've been saying in storage for a long time. High-availability, integrity of the data, and now you've got application developers programming with data. With APIs, you're slinging APIs around like it's-- >> The way it should be. >> That's the way it should be. This is like Nirvana finally got here. How far along are we in the progress? How far? Are we early? Are we moving the needle? Where are the customers? >> You mean in terms of a partnership? >> Partnership, customer AI, in general. You guys, you've got storage, you've got networking and compute all working together. It has to be flexible, elastic, like the cloud. >> My feeling, Mike can correct me, or you can disagree with me. (laughing) I think right now, if we look at what all the analysts are saying, and what we're saying, I think most of the companies, more than 50% of companies either have deployed AI MO or are considering a plan of deploying that. But having said that, we do see that we're still at a relatively early stage because the challenges of making AI deployment at scale, where data scientists and IT are really working together. You need that level of security and that level of skill of infrastructure and software and evolving DevNet. So my feeling is we're still at a relatively early stage. >> Yeah, I think we are in the early adopter phase. We've had customers for the last two years that have really been driving this. We work with about seven of the automated car-driving companies. But if you look at the data from Morgan Stanley and other analysts, there's about a $13 billion infrastructure that's required for AI over the next three years, from 2019-2021, so that is probably 6X, 7X what it is today, so we haven't quite hit that bell curve yet. >> So people are doing their homework right now, setting up their architecture? >> It's the leaders. It's leaders in the industry, not the mainstream. >> Got it. >> And everybody else is going to close that gap, and that's where you guys come in, is helping them do that. >> That's scale. (talking over one another) >> That's what we built this platform with Cisco on, is really, the Flashstack for AI is around scale, for tens and twenties of petabytes of data that will be required for these applications. >> And it's a targeted solution for AI with all the integration pieces with Cisco built in? >> Yes. >> Great, awesome. We'll keep track of it. It's exciting. >> Awesome. >> It's cliche to say future-proof but in this case, it literally is preparing for the future. The bridge to the future, as the new saying at Cisco goes. >> Yes, absolutely. >> This is theCube coverage live in Barcelona. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break. Thanks for watching. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallente. Stay with us. (upbeat electronic music)

(futuristic electronic music) >> Live from Las Vegas, its theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone. Live here in Las Vegas with AWS, Amazon Web Services, re:Invent 2018's CUBE coverage. Two sets, wall-to-wall coverage here on the ground floor. I'm here with Dave Vellante. Dave, six years we've been coming to re:Invent. Every year except for the first year. What a progression. We got great news. Always raising the bar, as they say at Amazon. This year, big announcements. One of them is blockchain. Really kind of laying out early formation of how they're going to roll out, thinking about blockchain. We're here to talk about here, with Rahul Pathak, who's the GM of analytics, and data lakes, and blockchain. Managing that. And Shawn Bice who's the vice president of non-relational databases. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> I wish my voice was a little bit stronger. I love this segment. You know, we've been doing blockchain. We've been following one of the big events in the industry. If you separate out the whole token ICO scam situation, token economics is actually a great business model opportunity. Blockchain is an infrastructure, a decentralized infrastructure, that's great. But it's early. Day one really for you guys in a literal sense. How are you guys doing blockchain? Take a minute to explain the announcement because there are use cases, low-hanging use cases, that look a lot like IoT and supply chain that people are interested in. So take a minute to explain the announcements and what it means. >> Absolutely, so when we began looking at blockchain and blockchain use cases, we really realized there are two things that customers are trying to do. One case is really keep an immutable record of transactions and in a scenario where centralized trust is okay. And for that we have Amazon QLDB, which is an immutable cryptographically verifiable ledger. And then in scenarios where customers really wanted the decentralized trust and the smart contracts, that's where blockchain frameworks like Hyperledger Fabric and Ethereum play a role. But they're just super complicated to use and that's why we built Managed Blockchain, to make it easy to stand up, scale, and monitor these networks, so customers can focus on building applications. And in terms of use cases on the decentralized side, it's really quite diverse. I mean, we've got a customer, Guardian Life Insurance, so they're looking at Managed Blockchain 'cause they have this distributed network of partners, providers, patients, and customers, and they want to provide decentralized verifiable records of what's taking place. And it's just a broad set of use cases. >> And then we saw in the video this morning, I think it was Indonesian farmers, right? Wasn't that before the keynote? Did you see that? It was good. >> I missed that one. >> Yeah, so they don't have bank accounts. >> Oh, got it. >> And they got a reward system, so they're using the blockchain to reward farmers to participate. >> So a lot of people ask the question is, why do I need blockchain? Why don't you just put in database? So there are unique, which is true by the way, 'cause latency's an issue. (chuckles) Certainly, you might want to avoid blockchain in the short term, until that gets fixed. Assume that every one will get fixed over time, but what are some of the use cases where blockchain actually is relevant? Can you be specific because that's really people starting to make their selection criteria on. Look, I still use a database. I'm going to have all kinds of token and models around, but in a database. Where is the blockchain specifically resonating right now? >> I'll take a shot at this or we can do it together, but when you think of QLDB, it's not that customers are asking us for a ledger database. What they were really saying is, hey, we'd like to have this complete immutable, cryptographically verifiable trail of data. And it wasn't necessarily a blockchain conversation, wasn't necessarily a database conversation, it was like, I really would like to have this complete cyrptographic verifiable trail of data. And it turns out, as you sort of look at the use cases, in particular, the centralized trust scenario, QLDB does exactly that. It's not about decentralized trust. It's really about simply being able to have a database that when you write to that database, you write a transaction to the database, you can't change it. You know, a typical database people are like, well, hey, wait a second, what does immutable really mean? And once you get people to understand that once that transaction is written to a journal, it cannot be changed at all and attached, then all of a sudden there's that breakthrough moment of it being immutable and having that cryptographic trail. >> And the advantage relative to a distributive blockchain is performance, scale, and all the challenges that people always say. >> Yeah, exactly. Like with QLDB, you can find it's going to be two to three times faster cause you're not doing that distributing consensus. >> How about data lakes? Let's talk about data lakes. What problem were you guys trying to solve with the data lakes? There's a lot of them, but. (chuckles) >> That's a great question. So, essentially it's been hard for customers to set up data lakes 'cause you have to figure out where to get data from, you have to land it in S3, you've got to secure it, you've then got to secure every analytic service that you've got, you might have to clean your data. So with lake formation, what we're trying to do is make it super easy to set up data lakes. So we have blueprints for common databases and data sources. We bring that data into an S3 data lake and we've created a central catalog for that data where customers can define granular access policies with the table, and the column, and the row level. We've also got ML-based data cleansing and data deduplication. And so now customers can just use lake formation, set up data lakes, curate their data, protect it in a single place, and have those policies that enforce across all of the analytic services that they might use. >> So does it help solve the data swamp problem, get more value out of the data lake? And if so, how? >> Absolutely, so the way it does that is by automatically cataloging all datas that comes in. So we can recognize what the data is and then we allow customers to add business metadata to that so they can tag this as customer data, or PII data, or this is my table of sales history. And that then becomes searchable. So we automatically generate a catalog as data comes in and that addresses the, what do I have in my data lake problem. >> Okay, so-- >> Go ahead. >> So, Rahul, you're the general manager. Shawn, what's your job, what do you do? >> So our team builds all the non-relational databases at Amazon. So DynamoDB, Neptune, ElastiCache, Timestream, which you'll hear about today, QLDB, et cetera. So all those things-- >> Beanstalk too, Elastic Beanstalk? >> No we do not build Beanstalk. >> Okay, we're a customer of DynamoDB, by the way. >> Great! >> We're happy customers. >> That's great! >> And we use ElastiCache, right? >> Yup, the elastic >> There you go! >> surge still has it. >> So-- >> Haven't used Neptune yet. >> What's the biggest problem stigmas that you guys are trying to raise the bar on? What's the key focus as you get this new worlds and use cases coming together? These are new use cases. How are you guys evaluating it? How are you guys raising the bar? >> You know, that's a really good question you ask. What I've found in my experience is developers that have been building apps for a long time, most people are familiar with relational databases. For years we've been building apps in that context, but when you kind of look at how people are building apps today, it's very different than how they did in the past. Today developer do what they do best. They take an application, a big application, break it down into smaller parts, and they pick the right tool for the right job. >> I think the game developer mark is going to be a canary in the coal mine for developers, and it's a good spot for data formation in these kind of unstructured, non-relational scenarios. Okay, now all this engagement data, could be first person shooter, whatever it is, just throw it, I need to throw it somewhere, and I'll get to it and let it be ready to be worked on by analytics. >> Well, yeah, if you think about that gamer scenario, think about if you and I are building a game, who knows if there's going to be one user, ten players, or 10 million, or 100 million. And if we had 100 million, it's all about the performance being steady. At 100 million or ten. >> You need a fleet of servers. (John laughing) >> And a fleet of servers! >> Have you guys played Fortnite? Or do you have kids that play? >> I look over my kid's shoulder. I might play it. >> I've played, but-- >> They run all their analytics on us. They've got about 14 petabytes in S3 using S3 as their data lake, with EMR and Athena for analytics. >> We got a season-- >> I mean, think about that F1 example on keynotes today. Great example of insights. We apply that kind of concept to Fortnite, by the way, Fortnite has theCUBE in there. It's always a popular term. We noticed that, the hastag, #wherestheCUBEtoday. (Rahul chuckling) I couldn't resist. But the analytics you could get out of all that data, every interaction, all that gesture data. I mean, what are some of the things they're doing? Can you share how they're using the new tech to scale up and get these insights? >> Yeah, absolutely. So they're doing a bunch of things. I mean, one is just the health of the systems when you've got hundreds of millions of players. You need to know if you're up and it's working. The second is around engagement. What games, what collection of people work well together. And then it's what incentives they create in the game, what power ups people buy that lead to continued engagement, 'cause that defines success over the long term. What gets people coming back? And then they have an offline analytics process where they're looking at reporting, and history, and telemetry, so it's very comprehensive. So you're exactly right about gaming and analytics being a huge consumer of databases. >> Now, Shawn, didn't you guys have hard news today on DynamoDB, or? >> Yeah today we announce DynamoDB On-Demand, so customers that basically have workloads that could spike up and then all of a sudden drop off, a lot of these customers basically don't even want to think about capacity planning. They don't want to guess. They just want to basically pay only for what they're using. So we announced DynamoDB On-Demand. The developer experience is simple. You create a table and you putyour read/write capacity in the on-demand mode, and you literally only pay for the request that your workload puts through system. >> It's a great service actually. Again, making life easier for customers. Lower the bill, manage capacity, make things go better, faster, enables value. >> It's all about improving the customer experience. >> Alright, guys, I really appreciate you coming in. I'm really interested in following what you guys do in the future. I'm sure a lot of people watching will be as well, as analytics and AI become a real part of, as you guys move the stack and create that API model for, what you did for infrastructure, for apps. A total game changer, we believe. We're interested in following you guys, I'm sure others are. Where are you going to be this year? What's your focus? Where can people find out more besides going to Amazon site? Is there certain events you're going to be at? How do people get more information and what's the plans? >> There's actually some sessions on lake formation, blockchain that we're doing here. We'll have a continuous stream of summits, so as the AWS Summit calendar for 2019 gets published that's a great place to go for more information. And then just engage with us either on social media or through the web and we'll be happy to follow up. >> Alright, well, we'll do a good job on amplifying. A lot of people are interested, certainly blockchain, super hot. But people want better, stronger, more stable, but they want the decentralized immutable database model. >> Cryptographically verifiable! >> And see as everyone knows. >> Scalable! >> Anyone who wants to keep those, they talk about CUBE coins but I haven't said CUBE coin once on this episode. Wait for those tokens to be released soon. More coverage after this short break, stay with us. I'm John Furrier, and Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (futuristic buzzing) (futuristic electronic music)