(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's special showcase with Unstoppable Domains. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. And Matt Gould who's the founder and CEO of Unstoppable Domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company, Unstoppable Domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >> Well, thank you, happy to be here. >> So first of all, love the story you've got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big Web3 wave, which we know that leads into, metaverse unlimited new ways, people are consuming information, content, applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with Web3. So this is kind of what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >> Yeah, well, I would say it's a torrent of change that got unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items and you see it from, you know Gaming and Fortnite and Skins and Warcraft and all these other places. But this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend to a whole lot more applications, from money, which everyone's familiar with, to NFT projects like Board Apes or CryptoBucks. >> You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pod. I think you're on 117 episodes now and growing. You guys do a deep dive, so people watching check out the Unstoppable Podcast. But on the last podcast, Matt, you mentioned some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet, but IP was generated by the United States Department of Commerce and R&D, that became the internet, the internet became the web. Back then it was just get some web pages up and find what you're looking for. Very analog compared to what's now today, now you mentioned gaming. You mentioned how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about the queue for many, many years now, but it's at actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding in groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >> Yeah, well, I think it just goes back to the shift of people's where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much of their assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset compared to literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen. And simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, ways for you to track digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with Web3 is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application and then I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now as we transition from a model in Web2, where you are on a hosted service like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? To a system where it's much more open. You can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you and you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an end-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game, and you can spend it somewhere else. So the user is now enable to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now, you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot in how applications serve up to users. It's going to change their user experiences for instance. >> I think the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying, "I'm done with being mined "and being manipulated by the big Facebook "and the LinkedIns of the world who are using the user." Now, the contract was a free product and you gave up your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does a digital identity architecture work with Unstoppable? How would you guys enabling that? Can you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique, you had an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together, can you explain? >> Yeah, so we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle, when you log on Instagram, you have an Instagram handle. It's your name, right? You have that name that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a 100% of their followers, right? And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers, who are today's small businesses, who build up these large, you know profitable, small businesses online, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. And then they could be deplatformed, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform if that platform raises their fees. You've seen several platforms increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed, right? So we just said, "You know what, "the first thing you're going to want to own "that this is going to be your piece of digital property "is going to be your name across these applications." If you look at every computing network in the history of computing networks, they end up with a naming system. And when we looked back at DNS, you know which came out in the 90s, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier instead of mapping these IP addresses. And then we said to ourselves, "What's going to happen in the future?" Is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their Web2 world in order to identify themselves as they log into all these applications. They're going to have an NFT domain in the Web3 world in order to authenticate and bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. And the bigger breakthrough here is that NFT domain systems all of these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users. They're built on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them and that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging Web3 metaverse. And we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're going to need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of these long IP addresses or hex addresses in the case of crypto. >> Yeah, and also people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name verification, you see the link tree is everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app. I mean, doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people trying to figure it out. I got a github handle. I got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >> Yeah, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app and you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency, and then the first time you try to send it, there's this field where you want to send it and it's this very long hex address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the D apps system replace IP addresses, NFT domains on blockchain systems replace hex addresses for sending and receiving cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you could have an error, or you could send it to the wrong place, it's pretty scary. You could send it to johnfurrier.nft. And so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing it worked with .com domains. And this is the same thing for Bitcoin and other crypto. >> It's interesting, look at the Web2 or trend one to two, Web1 went to two, it was all about use, ease of use, right? And making things simpler, clutter, more pages can't find things that was search, that was Google. Since then, has there actually been an advancement? >> Hmm. >> Facebook certainly is not an advancement, they're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of a free search to all the resources in the world, to which by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the Toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that Web3 crossover? So take us through your vision on digital identity on Web2, Google searching, Facebook's broken, democracy's broken, users aren't in charge to Web3? >> Got it. Well, we can start at Web1. So the way that I think about it is if you go to Web1, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it, right? And then what happened with Web2, was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about Web2, these are all websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or a search engine or whatever. And then as we move to Web3, the new thing that's happening here, is the user is coming onto that experience and they're able to connect in their wallet or their Web3 identity to that app and they can bring their data to the party. So it's kind of like Web1, you just have a static web page, Web2, you have a static webpage with a service, like a server back here, and then Web3, the user can come in and bring their database with them in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that you want data to be portable across apps. So we touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an in-game item for one game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. It also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. But then another thing that happens is I can bring unlimited amount of additional information about myself when I plug in my wallet. And as an example, when I plug into Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enable that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites and I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >> You know, I've always thought about this and always debated it with Dave a lot and my co-host, does top down governance privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation? So what you're getting at here is, "Hey, if you can actually have that solved "(laughing) before it even starts." It was almost as if those services were built for the problem of Web2. >> Yes. >> Not three. >> Right. >> What's your reaction to that? >> I think that is right on the money. And if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots and there have been huge breaches. Like Equifax, you know a few years back is a big one and this all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data, they create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, to be attack. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at Web3. So for those in the audience who have used, a Web3 application, one of these D app, to trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that stored, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on apps or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these defi exchanges, for instance, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the user is actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, "Wow, that's a much better or data model." And that gives so much more control of user 'cause the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. And so I think you're right and like we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see it like if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR and then all the companies are going, "We can't comply with that." They keep postponing it or like changing it a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're going to be in a much better spot. >> And GDPR is again a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. I always said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored and nevermind how they delete someone's entry in a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level they become so complicated. So right on the money there good, good call out. There question for you. Is this then? Okay, so do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is important on the identity side, wallet is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >> Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term and actually work together. So, if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to mattgloud.crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defi trades or whatever. And that doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think we're going to... Still early, so figuring out exactly how the industry is going to shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon and maybe a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging... What you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. And I also think that your financial applications of defi are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. And just a note on this, when you have a wallet that usually has multiple cryptocurrency addresses, so you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. You're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate and we collaborate with several large wallets as well, like blockchain.com and another 30 plus of these to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >> So the wallet basically is a D app, the way you look at it, the integrated. >> Yeah. >> Whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized application with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay. I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm an my own NFT. I mean, how this video's going to be an NFT soon. We get on board with the program here, but how do I log into my app? I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit is there benchmarking? Is there approval process? Is there APIs and SDK kind of thinking around it? How are you thinking about dealing with the apps? >> Yeah, so all of the above. And what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution, but it's consumer based. So what we've done is adapted some SSO protocols that other people have used, the standard ones, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you GET the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are, you know, standard Web2 APIs, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user-controlled NFT. So they're assigning it that with their private public key pair in order to make those updates. So that allows you to connect into both of these systems. We think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. You have an integration of these technologies over time. And we really see these Web3 components and net two domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google off, Facebook off, or you can type in an email address, you could see NFT, Unstoppable Domains or NFT authorization. And you can SSO in to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself, 'cause you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, "Yes, I am a unique individual. "I do live in New York and I just bought a new house." And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. And we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts online for e-commerce specifically in the future because that opens up a whole new market. 'Cause they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information directly to the app. >> I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency, in game end engagement, in game data. And now bringing that to kind of a horizontally scalable like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think that's a huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is you getting any pushback from, ICANN, the International Corporation of Naming and Numbers, they got dot everything now.club, 'cause the clubhouse, they got dot, party.live. I mean the real domain name people are over here, Web2, you guys are coming out with the Web3. Where is that connect for people who are not following along the Web3 trend? How do you rationalize the domain angle here? >> Yeah, well, so I would say that NFT domains are what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago. And they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, 20 to 50 million small businesses who own the majority of these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus. NFT domains, because all of a sudden you have the wallet, you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end users. So instead of being for 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to four billion people who have an internet connection. And so we actually think that the market size for NFT domains is somewhere 50 to a hundred X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for individuals on a day to day basis. So it's like people are going to want you on a use them for receiving cryptocurrency or receiving dollars or payments or USCC coin, where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. And they're not going to want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what Web2 is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are going to want to work with and adopt this new NFT technology, 'cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain names. So like in short, I think NFT domain names are domain names with superpowers. This is the next generation of naming systems. And naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >> Yeah, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean they just can't, they're not built for that. And having people, having their own names, is essentially what decentralization is all about. 'Cause we, what is a company? It's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place, they're decentralized. So then you decentralize the identity and everything's been changed. So completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. You pretty much laid out what's next for Web3, but you guys are in this state of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common use case for folks who are putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see, what's the progression? >> Yeah, so the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately, is we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to 100% year over year. So first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it, if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. And then we want to make it easier for all those people to send crypto back and forth. And I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like... I would say utility focused tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. And that's the really the first step for NFT domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFT domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network top down where you're like a government or corporation, you say, oh, you have to have ID, here's your password, you have to have it. We're going to do it, bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet and up to you domain name, it's going to give them some utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. And we're going to say, "Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile?" Yes. Okay, great. You just attach that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes, Instagram? Yes, TikTok, yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay, yeah, we can attach that back. And then what happens is you end up building up organically digital identifiers for people using these blockchain naming systems. And once they have that, they're going to just... They're going to be able to share that information and that's going to lead to better experiences online for both commerce, but also just better user experiences in general. >> Every company when they web came along first, everyone pro proved the web once. Oh, it's terrible. A bad idea. Oh, it's so, unreliable, so slow. Hard to find things. Web2, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these premalinks became so long, the webpage address fully qualified, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit ceiling. Here, everyone gets their NFT, they start doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. So we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink, permanent. >> Yeah. >> Excellent. >> Yes indeed. I mean, if we're lucky it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >> And the gas prices thing that's always come out always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain's perfect for this 'cause it's, imitable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >> Well, so a couple comments on efficiency. First of all, we picked domains as first product to market. 'Cause you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple times per year. So, the usage for that to set this up and configure it, most people set it up and configure it and then they only have a few changes per year. First of all, the overall you, it's not like a game. >> An IO problem. >> Right, right, right. So that part's good. So we picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking, are computer systems going to get more efficient over time? And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. And I remember the 90s, I had a modem and it was 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56 and then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. And I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time and there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. And you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you would try to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would've had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah, some applications are going to be wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >> Yeah, the motivated parties for innovations here, I mean a point cast failed miserably that was like, they tried to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds, double, triple in homes right now. Matt, congratulations, great stuff. Final, TikTok moment here. How would you summarize in a short clip, the difference between digital identity and Web2 and Web3. >> In Web2, you don't get to own your own online presidence, and in Web3 you do get to own it. So I think if you were going to simplify it, really Web3 is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >> So now users are in charge. >> Exactly, you got it. >> They're not the product anymore. If you got to be the product you might as well monetize the product, and that's the data. Real quick thoughts just to close out the roll of data and all this, your view. >> We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with their users. >> Awesome stuff, Matt, take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What are you guys looking for for hiring, fundraising? Give a quick commercial for what's going on Unstoppable Domains. >> Yeah, so if you haven't already, check us out at unstoppabledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at Unstoppable web. And we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And we are just crossed a hundred people. We're growing, three to five hundred percent year over year. We're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into Web3, even if you're coming from a traditional to background, please reach out. We love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >> And you're a virtual company. You have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >> Yeah, I actually just assumed we are 100% remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet in mostly concentrated in the US and the EU areas. >> I heard a rumor too. Maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >> This is true. And that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. But we also know that recovery is an important part of any organization. So if you push too hard, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. And so we want people to be with us long term, and we do think that this is a 10 year move. And so yeah, do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you- >> That's what I was going to ask you. So what's the consequence of, I don't take vacation. >> Yeah, we literally unplug you. (both laughing) >> You won't be able to get into slack. Right, and that's (indistinct). >> Well, when people start having their avatars be their bought and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFT saying that that's not the real person, it's not the real human. >> Yeah, exactly. We'll be able to check. >> NFT is great innovation, great use case, Matt congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with theCUBE. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, John had a wonderful time. >> All right, this is theCUBE Unstoppable Domains showcasing. We've got 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes. Special showcase with unstoppable domains. I'm John furrier, your host of the cube here in Palo Alto, California and Matt Gould, who is the founder and CEO of unstoppable domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company on stumbled domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >>Thank you. Happy to be here. So >>Love, first of all, love the story you got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big web three wave, which we know where that leads into. Metaverse unlimited new ways. People are consuming information, content applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with web three. So this is kind of the what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >>Yeah. Well, I would say it's a torrent of change and the get unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have a digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items. Do you see it from, you know, gaming and Fortnite and skins and Warcraft and all these other places, but this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend a whole lot more, uh, applications for money, which everyone's familiar with, uh, to, uh, NFT projects, uh, like boarding school. >>You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pot. I think you're on a 117 episodes now and growing, you guys do a deep dive. So people watching check out the unstoppable podcast, but in the last podcast, man, you mentioned, you know, some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet. Um, but IP was, was generated by the United States department of commerce and R and D that became the internet. The internet became the web back then it was just get some webpages up and find what you're looking for. Right. Very analog compared to what's. Now, today, now you mentioned gaming, you mentioned, uh, how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about in the queue for many, many years now, but it's actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding and groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. >>This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >>Yeah, well, I think, uh, it just goes back to the shift of peoples, where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much, how much of assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset, uh, compared to, you know, literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen and simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around, uh, cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, uh, ways for you to track the digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into, uh, your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with web three is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application. >>And I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now. As we transitioned from a model in web to where you're on a hosted service, like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, you know, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? So to assist them where it's much more open, you can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you, uh, and you can, you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an in-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game and you can spend it somewhere else. Uh, so the user is now enabled to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot and how applications, uh, serve up to user. So it's going to change their user experiences. For instance, >>The flip, the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying I'm done with being mined and being manipulated by the big Facebooks and the LinkedIns of the world who were using the user. Now, the contract was a free product and you gave it your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or a marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does the digital identity architecture work with unstoppable? How are you guys enabling that? Could you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique in an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together? Can you explain? >>Yeah. So, uh, we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, uh, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle. When you log on, uh, you know, Instagram, you have an Instagram handle, it's your name, right? You have that name that's that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a hundred percent of their followers, right? And theirs. And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers who are, today's small businesses who build up these large, you know, profitable, small businesses online, uh, you know, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. >>Uh, and then they could be D platform, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform. If that platform raised their fees, you've seen several platforms, increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed. Right. Uh, so we just said, you know what, the first thing you're going to want to own that this is going to be your piece of digital property. It's going to be your name across these applications. And if you look at every computer network in the history of computing networks, the end up with a naming system, and when we've looked back at DDA desk, which came out in the nineties, uh, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier, you know, instead of mapping these IP addresses. Uh, and then we said to ourselves, you know, uh, what's going to happen in the future is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their web two world in order to, uh, identify themselves as they log into all these applications. >>They're going to have an NFT domain in the web three world in order to authenticate and, and, uh, bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. Um, and the bigger breakthrough here is at NMT domain systems or these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users to build on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them. And that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging web three metaverse. Uh, and we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people, you know, with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're gonna need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of, you know, these long IP addresses or a hex addresses in the case of Porto. >>So people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name, verification, you see link trees everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app and it doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people kind of trying to figure it out. I mean, you've got to get up, Angela got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >>Yeah. And, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app, you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency. And then the first time you try to send it, there's this, there's this field where you want to send it. And it's this very long text address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's, it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the DNS system replace IP addresses in Ft domains, uh, on blockchain systems, replace hex addresses for sending and receiving, you know, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just, instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you can have an error or you can send it to the wrong place. It's pretty scary. You could send it to John furrier dot, uh, NFT. And uh, so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing. It worked with the.com domains. And this is the same thing for the coin and other >>Crypto. It's interesting to look at the web two or trend one to two web one went to two. It was all about user ease of use, right? And making things simpler. Clutter, you have more pages. You can't find things that was search that was Google since then. Has there actually been an advancement? Facebook certainly is not an advancement. They're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of, you know, a free search to all the resources in the world, to which, by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that web three crossover. So take us through your vision on digital identity on web to Google searching, Facebook's broken democracy is broken users. Aren't in charge to web three. >>Got it. Well, we can start at web one. So the way that I think about it is if you go to web one, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it. Right. Uh, and then what happened with web two was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about web two, these are all, you know, these are websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or search engine or whatever. And then as we moved to web three, the new thing that's happening here is the user is coming on to that experience. And they're able to connect in their wallet or their web three identity, uh, to that app and they can bring their data to the party. >>So it's kind of like web one, you just have a static web page whip, two, you have a static web page with a service, like a server back here. And then with three, the user can come in and bring their database with them, uh, in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that the, you want data to be portable across apps. So we've touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an end game item for one, a game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. Uh, it also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. >>Uh, but then another thing that happens is I can bring in from, you know, an unlimited amount of additional information about myself. When I plug in my wallet, uh, as an example, when I plug in to Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enabled that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites. And I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >>I always thought about this and I always debated it with David laundry. My cohost does top down governance, privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation. So what you're getting at here is, Hey, if you can actually have that solved before it even starts, it was almost as if those services were built for the problem of web two. Yes, not three. Write your reaction to that. >>I think that is, uh, right on the money. And, uh, if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots. And there have been huge, uh, breaches like Equifax, you know, a few years back is a big one and just all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your, uh, credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data. They create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not, billions, to be attacked. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at web three. >>So for those of the audience who have used the web three application, one of these depths, um, you know, trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect to your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you, you know, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that storage, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on depths or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these DFI exchanges, for instance, uh, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the users actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, wow, that's a much better data model. And that give so much more control of user because the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. Um, and so I think you're right. And like, we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see, like, if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR. And then all the companies are going, we can't comply with that and they keep postponing it or like changing a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're gonna be in a much better spot. >>The GDPR is again, a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. Oh, I said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored. Nevermind how they delete someone's entering a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level it becomes so complicated. So right on the money are good. Good call out there. Question for you. Is this then? Okay. So do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together? Uh, and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is super important on the identity side while it, is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >>Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. Right. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term, uh, and they actually work together. So, you know, like if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to, you know, method, rules dot crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defy trades or whatever. And doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to, uh, you know, sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. >>And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think there's, we're gonna still early. So figuring out exactly how the industry is gonna shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon. And it may be a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging, uh, what you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. Uh, and I also think that your financial applications of defy are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. Um, and just to, you know, a note on this, when you have a wallet, it usually has multiple cryptocurrency address. So you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. Uh, you're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate. And we collaborate with several large wallets as well, uh, like blockchain.com, uh, and you know, another 30 plus of these, uh, to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >>So the wallet, basically as a D app, the way you look at it, you integrate whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized applications with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay, I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm in my own NFT. I mean, hell, this video is going to be an NFT. Soon. We get on board with the program here. Uh, but I do, I log into my app, I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit, is there benchmarking, is there approval process? Is there API APIs and a SDK kind of thinking around it? How do you thinking about dealing with the apps? >>Yeah, so all of the above and what we're trying to, what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution. Uh, but that it's consumer based. So, uh, what we've done is adapted some SSL protocols that other people have used the standard ones, uh, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you keep the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are standard web to API APIs. Uh, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user controlled in FTE. So they're assigning that with their private public key pair order to make those updates. Um, so that, that allows you to connect into both of these systems. Uh, we think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. >>You have an integration of these technologies over time. Uh, and we really see these three components in MTU domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google or Facebook, or you can type in an email address, you can see not ensemble domains or NFT, uh, authorization, and you can SSO in with that, to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself because you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, yes, I am a unique individual. I do live in New York, uh, and I just bought a new house. Right. And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. Um, and we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts, um, online for e-commerce specifically, uh, in the future, because that opens up a whole new market because they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information. >>Yeah. I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency in game to engagement in game data. And now bringing that, so kind of a horizontally scalable, like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think you're, that's huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is, um, you getting any pushback from ICANN, the international corporates have name and numbers. They got dot everything now.club, cause the clubhouse, they got dot, you know, party.live. I mean, so the real domain name people are over here, web too. You guys are coming out with the web three where's that connect for people who are not following along the web three trend. How do they, how do you rationalize the, the domain angle here? >>Yeah, well, uh, so I would say that NFTE domains or what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago and they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being the business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, uh, who, uh, own the majority of these, uh, these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus NFTE domains because all of a sudden you have the, uh, the Walton, if you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end-users. So, and instead of being for, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to 4 billion people who have an internet connection. >>Uh, and so we actually think that the market size we're in a few domains and somewhere 50 to 100 X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for, uh, individuals on a day-to-day basis. So it's like people are gonna want you on to use them for receiving cryptocurrency versus receiving dollars or payments or USCC point where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. Uh, and they're not gonna want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what web is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are gonna want to work with and adopt this new NFC technology. Cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain next. So like in short, I think NMT domain names or domain names with superpowers, this is the next generation of, uh, naming systems and naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >>Yeah. They hit a car, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean, they just can't, they're not built for that. Right. So I mean, and, and having people, having their own names is essentially what decentralization is all about. Cause what does a company, it's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place they're decentralized. So, and then you decentralize the identity and everything's can been changed so completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. Um, you pretty much laid out what's next for web three, but you guys are in this state of, of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the, what are the, um, best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common, uh, use case for folks we're putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see what's the progression? >>Yeah. So the, the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately is, uh, we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I, and I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to a hundred percent year over year. So, uh, first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. Uh, and then we want to make it easier for all those people to sit encrypted back and forth. And I, and I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like, you know, I would say utility focused, uh, tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for, you know, transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. >>Uh, and that's the really the first step freight FTE domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFTE domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, um, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network, top-down where you're like a government or a corporation say, oh, you have to have ID. Here's your password. You have to have it. We're going to do a bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet, NFTE domain name, it's going to give them to the utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. They're going to say, Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile? Yes. Okay, great. You test that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes. Instagram. Yes. Tik TOK. Yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay. Yeah, we can attach that back. Uh, and then what happens is you end up building up organically, uh, digital identifiers for people using these blockchain, uh, naming systems. And once they have that, they're gonna just, they're going to be able to share that information. Uh, and that's gonna lead to better experiences online for, uh, both commerce, but also just better user experiences. >>You know, every company when they web came along, first of all, everyone, poo-pooed the web ones. That was terrible, bad idea. Oh. And so unreliable. So slow, hard to find things. Web two, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these permalinks became so long. The web page address fully qualified, you know, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit a ceiling here. Everyone gets their NFT. They, they started doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. Um, so we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink permanent. Yeah. >>Yes. I mean, if we're lucky, it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity, uh, that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >>And the gas prices thing that's always coming. That's always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain is perfect for this because it's immutable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >>Well, so a couple of comments on efficiency. Uh, first of all, we picked domains as a first product to market because, you know, as you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do, uh, and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. Right? So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple of times per year. So, so the usage for that to set this up and configure it, you know, most people set up and configure it and then it'll have a few changes for years. First of all, the overall it's not like a game problem. Right, right, right. So, so that, that part's good. We picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking our computer, system's going to get more efficient over time. >>And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. Uh, and you know, I remember the nineties, I had a modem and it was, you know, whatever, 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56, then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. Uh, and I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time. And you know, there's, there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. Uh, and you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you had tried to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would have had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah. Some applications are going to wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >>Yeah. The motivated parties for innovations here, I mean, a point cast failed miserably that was like the, they try to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds double, triple on homes right now, Matt. Congratulations. Great stuff. Final tick, tock moment here. How would you summarize short in a short clip? The difference between digital identity in web two and web three, >>Uh, in, in web too, you don't get to own your own online presidents and in web three, you do get to own it. So I think if you were gonna simplify it really web three is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >>So now users are in charge. >>Exactly. >>They're not the product anymore. Going to be the product might as well monetize the product. And that's the data. Um, real quick thoughts just to close out the role of data in all this, your view. >>We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with >>Awesome stuff, man, I take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What do you guys looking for for hiring, um, fundraising, give a quick, a quick commercial for what's going on, on unstoppable domains. Yeah. >>So if you haven't already check us out@ensembledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at unstoppable web, and we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And, uh, we are just crossed a hundred people. We've, we're growing, you know, three to five, a hundred percent year over year. Uh, we're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into web three, even if you're coming from a traditional web two background, please reach out. Uh, we love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >>And you're a virtual company. Do you have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >>Yeah, I actually just assumed we were a hundred percent remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet. Uh, mostly concentrated in the U S and EU areas, >>Rumor to maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >>Uh, this is true. Uh, and that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. And, but we also know that recovery is an important part of any organizations. So if you push too hard, uh, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. Uh, and so we want people to be with us term. Uh, we do think that this is a ten-year move. And so yeah. Do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you have >>To ask me, so what's the consequence of, I don't think vacation. >>Yeah. We literally unplug it. You won't be able to get it. You won't be able to get into slack. Right. And that's a, that's how we regulate. >>Well, when people start having their avatars be their bot and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFD saying that that's not the real person. It's not the real human And FTS. Great innovation, great use case, Matt. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with the cube. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >>John had a wonderful time. All right. Just the >>Cube unstoppable domains showcasing. We got great 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage on John furrier with cube. Thanks for watching.

>>Yeah. Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS public sector summit here in Washington D. C. We're live on the ground for two days. Face to face conference and expo hall and everything here but keith brooks who is the director and head of technical business development for a dress government Govcloud selling brains 10th birthday. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. Thank you john happy to be E. C. 2 15 S three is 9.5 or no, that maybe they're 10 because that's the same day as sqs So Govcloud. 10 years, 20 years. What time >>flies? 10 years? >>Big milestone. Congratulations. A lot of history involved in Govcloud. Yes. Take us through what's the current situation? >>Yeah. So um let's start with what it is just for the viewers that may not be familiar. So AWS Govcloud is isolated. AWS cloud infrastructure and services that were purposely built for our U. S. Government customers that had highly sensitive data or highly regulated data or applications and workloads that they wanted to move to the cloud. So we gave customers the ability to do that with AWS Govcloud. It is subject to the fed ramp I and D O D S R G I L four L five baselines. It gives customers the ability to address ITAR requirements as well as Seaga's N'est ce MMC and Phipps requirements and gives customers a multi region architecture that allows them to also designed for disaster recovery and high availability in terms of why we built it. It starts with our customers. It was pretty clear from the government that they needed a highly secure and highly compliant cloud infrastructure to innovate ahead of demand and that's what we delivered. So back in august of 2011 we launched AWS GovCloud which gave customers the best of breed in terms of high technology, high security, high compliance in the cloud to allow them to innovate for their mission critical workloads. Who >>was some of the early customers when you guys launched after the C. I. A deal intelligence community is a big one but some of the early customers. >>So the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense were all early users of AWS GovCloud. But one of our earliest lighthouse customers was the Nasa jet propulsion laboratory and Nasa Jpl used AWS GovCloud to procure Procure resources ahead of demand which allowed them to save money and also take advantage of being efficient and only paying for what they needed. But they went beyond just I. T. Operations. They also looked at how do they use the cloud and specifically GovCloud for their mission programs. So if you think back to all the way to 2012 with the mars curiosity rover, Nasa Jpl actually streamed and processed and stored that data from the curiosity rover on AWS Govcloud They actually streamed over 150 terabytes of data responded to over 80,000 requests per second and took it beyond just imagery. They actually did high performance compute and data analytics on the data as well. That led to additional efficiencies for future. Over there >>were entire kicking they were actually >>hard core missing into it. Mission critical workloads that also adhere to itar compliance which is why they used AWS GovCloud. >>All these compliance. So there's also these levels. I remember when I was working on the jetty uh stories that were out there was always like level for those different classifications. What does all that mean like? And then this highly available data and highly high availability all these words mean something in these top secret clouds. Can you take us through kind of meetings >>of those? Yeah absolutely. So it starts with the federal compliance program and the two most popular programs are Fed ramp and Dodi srg fed ramp is more general for federal government agencies. There are three levels low moderate and high in the short and skinny of those levels is how they align to the fisma requirements of the government. So there's fisma low fisma moderate fisma high depending on the sensitivity of the government data you will have to align to those levels of Fed ramp to use workloads and store data in the cloud. Similar story for D. O. D. With srg impact levels to 45 and six uh impacts levels to four and five are all for unclassified data. Level two is for less sensitive public defense data levels. Four and five cover more sensitive defense data to include mission critical national security systems and impact level six is for classified information. So those form the basis of security and compliance, luckily with AWS GovCloud celebrating our 10th anniversary, we address Fed ramp high for our customers that require that and D. O. D impact levels to four and five for a sensitive defense guy. >>And that was a real nuanced point and a lot of the competition can't do that. That's real people don't understand, you know, this company, which is that company and all the lobbying and all the mudslinging that goes on. We've seen that in the industry. It's unfortunate, but it happens. Um, I do want to ask you about the Fed ramp because what I'm seeing on the commercial side in the cloud ecosystem, a lot of companies that aren't quote targeting public sector are coming in on the Fed ramp. So there's some good traction there. You guys have done a lot of work to accelerate that. Any new, any new information to share their. >>Yes. So we've been committed to supporting the federal government compliance requirements effectively since the launch of GovCloud. And we've demonstrated our commitment to Fed ramp over the last number of years and GovCloud specifically, we've taken dozens of services through Fed ramp high and we're 100% committed to it because we have great relationships with the Fed ramp, Jabor the joint authorization board. We work with individual government agencies to secure agency A. T. O. S. And in fact we actually have more agency A. T. O. S. With AWS GovCloud than any other cloud provider. And the short and skinny is that represents the baseline for cloud security to address sensitive government workloads and sensitive government data. And what we're seeing from industry and specifically highly regulated industries is the standard that the U. S. Government set means that they have the assurance to run control and classified information or other levels of highly sensitive data on the cloud as well. So Fed ramp set that standard. It's interesting >>that the cloud, this is the ecosystem within an ecosystem again within crossover section. So for instance um the impact of not getting Fed ramp certified is basically money. Right. If you're a supplier vendor uh software developer or whatever used to being a miracle, no one no one would know right bed ramp. I'm gonna have to hire a whole department right now. You guys have a really easy, this is a key value proposition, isn't it? >>Correct. And you see it with a number of I. S. V. S. And software as the service providers. If you visit the federal marketplace website, you'll see dozens of providers that have Fed ramp authorized third party SAAS products running on GovCloud industry leading SAAS companies like Salesforce dot com driven technology Splunk essay PNS to effectively they're bringing their best of breed capabilities, building on top of AWS GovCloud and offering those highly compliant fed ramp, moderate fed ramp high capabilities to customers both in government and private industry that need that level of compliance. >>Just as an aside, I saw they've got a nice tweet from Teresa Carlson now it's plunk Govcloud yesterday. That was a nice little positive gesture uh, for you guys at GovCloud, what other areas are you guys moving the needle on because architecturally this is a big deal. What are some areas that you're moving the needle on for the GovCloud? >>Well, when I look back across the last 10 years, there were some pretty important developments that stand out. The first is us launching the second Govcloud infrastructure region in 2018 And that gave customers that use GovCloud specifically customers that have highly sensitive data and high levels of compliance. The ability to build fault tolerant, highly available and mission critical workloads in the cloud in a region that also gives them an additional three availability zones. So the launch of GovCloud East, which is named AWS GovCloud Us East gave customers to regions a total of six availability zones that allowed them accelerate and build more scalable solutions in the cloud. More recently, there is an emergence of another D O D program called the cybersecurity maturity model, C M M C and C M M C is something where we looked around the corner and said we need to Innovate to help our customers, particularly defense customers and the defense industrial based customers address see MMC requirements in the cloud. So with Govcloud back in December of 2020, we actually launched the AWS compliant framework for federal defense workloads, which gives customers a turnkey capability and tooling and resources to spin up environments that are configured to meet see MMC controls and D. O. D. Srg control. So those things represent some of the >>evolution keith. I'm interested also in your thoughts on how you see the progression of Govcloud outside the United States. Tactical Edge get wavelength coming on board. How does how do you guys look at that? Obviously us is global, it's not just the jet, I think it's more of in general. Edge deployments, sovereignty is also going to be world's flat, Right? I mean, so how does that >>work? So it starts back with customer requirements and I tie it back to the first question effectively we built Govcloud to respond to our U. S. Government customers and are highly regulated industry customers that had highly sensitive data and a high bar to meet in terms of regulatory compliance and that's the foundation of it. So as we look to other customers to include those outside of the US. It starts with those requirements. You mentioned things like edge and hybrid and a good example of how we marry the two is when we launched a W. S. Outpost in Govcloud last year. So outpost brings the power of the AWS cloud to on premises environments of our customers, whether it's their data centers or Coehlo environments by bringing AWS services, a. P. I. S and service and points to the customer's on premises facilities >>even outside the United States. >>Well, for Govcloud is focused on us right now. Outside of the U. S. Customers also have availability to use outpost. It's just for us customers, it's focused on outpost availability, geography >>right now us. Right. But other governments gonna want their Govcloud too. Right, Right, that's what you're getting at, >>Right? And it starts with the data. Right? So we we we spent a lot of time working with government agencies across the globe to understand their regulations and their requirements and we use that to drive our decisions. And again, just like we started with govcloud 10 years ago, it starts with our customer requirements and we innovate from there. Well, >>I've been, I love the D. O. D. S vision on this. I know jet I didn't come through and kind of went scuttled, got thrown under the bus or whatever however you want to call it. But that whole idea of a tactical edge, it was pretty brilliant idea. Um so I'm looking forward to seeing more of that. That's where I was supposed to come in, get snowball, snowmobile, little snow snow products as well, how are they doing? And because they're all part of the family to, >>they are and they're available in Govcloud and they're also authorized that fed ramp and Gov srg levels and it's really, it's really fascinating to see D. O. D innovate with the cloud. Right. So you mentioned tactical edge. So whether it's snowball devices or using outposts in the future, I think the D. O. D. And our defense customers are going to continue to innovate. And quite frankly for us, it represents our commitment to the space we want to make sure our defense customers and the defense industrial base defense contractors have access to the best debris capabilities like those edge devices and edge capable. I >>think about the impact of certification, which is good because I just thought of a clean crows. We've got aerospace coming in now you've got D O. D, a little bit of a cross colonization if you will. So nice to have that flexibility. I got to ask you about just how you view just in general, the intelligence community a lot of uptake since the CIA deal with amazon Just overall good health for eight of his gum cloud. >>Absolutely. And again, it starts with our commitment to our customers. We want to make sure that our national security customers are defense customers and all of the customers and the federal government that have a responsibility for securing the country have access to the best of breed capability. So whether it's the intelligence community, the Department of Defense are the federal agencies and quite frankly we see them innovating and driving things forward to include with their sensitive workloads that run in Govcloud, >>what's your strategy for partnerships as you work on the ecosystem? You do a lot with strategy. Go to market partnerships. Um, it's got its public sector pretty much people all know each other. Our new firms popping up new brands. What's the, what's the ecosystem looks like? >>Yeah, it's pretty diverse. So for Govcloud specifically, if you look at partners in the defense community, we work with aerospace companies like Lockheed martin and Raytheon Technologies to help them build I tar compliant E. R. P. Application, software development environments etcetera. We work with software companies I mentioned salesforce dot com. Splunk and S. A. P. And S. To uh and then even at the state and local government level, there's a company called Pay It that actually worked with the state of Kansas to develop the Icann app, which is pretty fascinating. It's a app that is the official app of the state of Kansas that allow citizens to interact with citizens services. That's all through a partner. So we continue to work with our partner uh broad the AWS partner network to bring those type of people >>You got a lot of MST is that are doing good work here. I saw someone out here uh 10 years. Congratulations. What's the coolest thing uh you've done or seen. >>Oh wow, it's hard to name anything in particular. I just think for us it's just seeing the customers and the federal government innovate right? And, and tie that innovation to mission critical workloads that are highly important. Again, it reflects our commitment to give these government customers and the government contractors the best of breed capabilities and some of the innovation we just see coming from the federal government leveraging the count now. It's just super cool. So hard to pinpoint one specific thing. But I love the innovation and it's hard to pick a favorite >>Child that we always say. It's kind of a trick question I do have to ask you about just in general, the just in 10 years. Just look at the agility. Yeah, I mean if you told me 10 years ago the government would be moving at any, any agile anything. They were a glacier in terms of change, right? Procure Man, you name it. It's just like, it's a racket. It's a racket. So, so, but they weren't, they were slow and money now. Pandemic hits this year. Last year, everything's up for grabs. The script has been flipped >>exactly. And you know what, what's interesting is there were actually a few federal government agencies that really paved the way for what you're seeing today. I'll give you some examples. So the Department of Veterans Affairs, they were an early Govcloud user and way back in 2015 they launched vets dot gov on gov cloud, which is an online platform that gave veterans the ability to apply for manage and track their benefits. Those type of initiatives paved the way for what you're seeing today, even as soon as last year with the U. S. Census, right? They brought the decennial count online for the first time in history last year, during 2020 during the pandemic and the Census Bureau was able to use Govcloud to launch and run 2020 census dot gov in the cloud at scale to secure that data. So those are examples of federal agencies that really kind of paved the way and leading to what you're saying is it's kind >>of an awakening. It is and I think one of the things that no one's reporting is kind of a cultural revolution is the talent underneath that way, the younger people like finally like and so it's cooler. It is when you go fast and you can make things change, skeptics turned into naysayers turned into like out of a job or they don't transform so like that whole blocker mentality gets exposed just like shelf where software you don't know what it does until the cloud is not performing, its not good. Right, right. >>Right. Into that point. That's why we spend a lot of time focused on education programs and up skilling the workforce to, because we want to ensure that as our customers mature and as they innovate, we're providing the right training and resources to help them along their journey, >>keith brooks great conversation, great insight and historian to taking us to the early days of Govcloud. Thanks for coming on the cube. Thanks thanks for having me cubes coverage here and address public sector summit. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break. Mhm. Mhm mm.

>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to AWS Public Sector Summit here in our nation's capital, Washington DC. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, John Furrier. We are joined by Daniel Castro. He is the Vice President Information Technology and Innovation Foundation, a think tank based here in town. Welcome, Daniel. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, the theme of this conference is all about modernizing government IT. I want to just start by asking a think tank analyst, how do you define IT modernization, particularly as it relates to the public sector? >> Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about how we've had this evolution, and how we do egovernment, right? And we've talked about the stages of egovernment before, for a long time, and it used to be that you had this very basic model. You put some information online, and then you had the transactional model, so you have some communication. Then you'd have something that was a little more interactive. So, maybe you get some more back and forth there. And now I think we're getting into this new model of egovernment. This next stage where we can possibly start automating a lot of more. We can start using AI. We can use IoT, and I think that's where there's a lot of excitement now because there's so much possibility with what we can do with government that didn't exist before, even five years ago. And so, to me, it's exciting to see things like where you can ask Alexa to do something with government, and you can start seeing this next wave that didn't exist even a few years ago. >> What kind of efficiencies do you see, because that seems to be a theme, using data, undifferienciated heavy-lifting tasks, where do you see the use cases in government for being more efficient with cloud and data? >> Well, I have a little bit of experience in government. I used to work in government, and one thing that a lot of people will tell you is that there's a lot of really boring things that you have to do when you're in government. There's a lot of really exciting things, really great things you can do when you're in government that's what attracts, I think, great people. But what I see is the possibility to take a lot of those boring activities out of government. The paperwork associated with your leave, and filing a claim, or all these things that people don't like, to me, that's the possibility. Can we get rid of the boring part of government and just have the really value-added part. And with data, I think that's where we're moving 'cause it's not about moving papers around and tracking. Government has a big information problem, it's can we really get to the core problem, which is the analytics, the decision-making, the problem solving. And that to me, you see so many companies on the floor that are saying, we'll take care of the security problem for you. We'll take care of the storage problem for you. we'll take care of the applications, and leave you to do that you actually wanted to do when you came to government. >> Get rid of the manual tasks, and leaving more room for the creative. And as you said, the analytical, the problem-solving. >> Right. >> Well the thing I want to ask you is that I'm old enough to see the original internet wave. And the US did a great job under the Department of Commerce when the internet came out, the domain name system. They worked internationally with ICANN, variety of other organizations, and so you had this nice growth of the internet. Now it just seems like it's highly accelerated, you got Facebook, you got YouTube. You got all these things going on. You have Amazon, these big whales of tech companies. There's a huge tech-lash going on. There's a lot of tech for good as well. So, we were just talking in our last segment, the pile for tech for good opportunities is a lot higher than the tech for bad, but everyone's focused on the bad actors right now. These are private companies. These aren't public entities, Facebook, YouTube, Amazon so they can't arrest anyone. They can't, they do what they do, right? >> Right. >> So where's the new way to get this under control? What's the think tank's perspectve? What's the community perspective in DC around this? >> What strikes me is the level of optism we see around technology has changed significantly, and part of that's driven by the tech-lash. If you go back to the '90s, people were excited about the potential of the internet, and what it could mean. We've done some analysis looking at even just the reporting in the media. We did sentiment anaylysis of how technology's being described, not just IT, but technology overall and innovation overall. You see a downward trend in the last 20 years. It's been steady, and it's been faster in the last 10 years. That affects, I think, the ability to get the public on board with new technology. It affects the ability of government to say, we're using technology for these new purposes. And it affects the policies. When you mentioned ICANN, the Departmemt of Commerce said We're going to do something fundamentally different with the internet, we're going to help create it, but keep our hands off it That idea was radical and new and exciting and innovative. Now we have all these new technologies like whether it's Jones or IoT or AI, but we don't have government necessarily saying, this is exciting and new and maybe we should do things different this time. We should think about a creative way of ensuring that we are not in the way of innovation. That we're putting in good guard rails to protect people, and instead they want to do kind of the old model, of let's regulate the technology, or focus on how it can go wrong instead of really focusing on how it might go right. >> Well, I got to say, we need more think tanks like what you guys are doing because my personal feeling, not being a very political person, and being from California, is you can't regulate what you don't understand. So if you don't understand it, then get out of the way, and a lot of people that I see in DC, certainly in elected official sides, they really don't know what they're talking about. They're mostly either lawyers or not tech savvy. And the ones that are tech savvy seem to be kind of oppressed, like where are they? Where's the revolution? >> So what's the answer then? I mean they... (laughs) >> Well, I think we have to educate more about what the potential is. When you see people start to understand, here's the technology, here's the benefits. But these are the 10 things we need to do to get there. They understand they need to do more. The problem is, some of the technology, it is kind of confusing to policy makers. Do you try to explain what machine learning is to a 70 year old elected official, and not all of them are familiar with it. Some of them are, but you look at the, Congress has an AI caucus. Congress also has a blockchain caucus, which do you think is bigger? >> Blockchain. >> Blockchain, of course, right? Because people think there's money there, it's immutable. But AI's going to be the one-- >> Infrastructure dynamic around supply chain. >> Yeah. >> Which is a data challenge because now you got encryption, and you have all kinds of immutability. So again, this is an exciting time but what do you do? Do you jump in? Nurture it? Regulate it? >> I think government, what traditionally people think about government is the lag around technology. What I like about this conference is, I think it'll show that government can be the leader in technology. When government's the leader in technology, it de-risks it for both the private sector and the rest of government. So it can say, we're going to be on the cutting edge. We're going to show how it can be done, and by being an early adopter, we can also help shape the technology. So when people are concerned about bias in AI or something, if government's an early adopter, they can help address some of those problems whether it's by making their own data sets available or showing-- >> When government is experimenting with the algorithms and then makes some mistakes, it builds more bias into it. It has more consequences, it feels like that at least. >> I think that's true, but I think the difference is nobody expects the private sector to necessarily put citizen's interest first, but that is government's role. Government's role is to say, how can we make our community better? So when it has a primary seat at the table, it can help shape the technology to get to those types of concerns. Now, of course you have to have a good government. So it's also important that we elect people who are excited about technology and protecting all people. The CIA, and now the DoD with Jedi, and a variety of other contracts going on, I think can be that leader again. If you look at the CIA is done, I think that is a great use case example, a leader gestating since 2013. DoD now on it. My friend, John Markoff, former New York Times columnist, wrote a book, What the Door Mouse Said. It's about how the hippy counter culture created the computer revolution, really from the build-up of technology around government funding to institutions and academic institutions. The counterculture developed, aka, the computer revolution. So I see a similar thing kind of happening now. It feels like you have all this tech out there. You've got this counterculture of people saying, why is there all this red tape? Why can't we use this data? Why is LinkedIn a site load of data? Why is Facebook doing what they're doing? So, I think the question should be asked, the question is, how should we take that position as the government to foster innovation, curb the bad, accelerate good, reward good. So the incentives could be digital I'd love to get your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I think that's a good point. What I see, we had a panel this morning on open data, and one of the big themes there was around the idea of collaboration. It's about partnerships between government and industry whether it's government providing the data, or industry providing the data, and also focusing on specific problems. I think that's how you get out of the siloed approach which is the concern that you have one federal agency, for example, focusing on, this is my problem. And I have the blinders on and not looking how it affects everyone else, and arguably that's the critique that a lot of people have about companies, that they're focused on one problem. They're not looking at the effects they have on the rest of the economy or society. I think you have collaberation on specific problems whether it's the opioid crisis or health care, or energy, then you start getting people from lots of different backgrounds saying, here's the resources we can bring to bear on these problems, and here's how we're going to fix it, and here's how we're going to do things differently. A lot of that gets to, do you have data that you can share? Do you have IT infrastructure that's interoperable? And do you have just kind of an organizational structure, that allows and encourages that type of collaboration? So I think when you keep kind of pushing it then, saying this is the future we want. These are the problems we're going to solve. Then it forces, even governments that are traditionally rigid to start re-orienting around new ways of solving problems. >> Well you know, open source software really could be an indicator of where this could go because you look at the generations of evolution in open source software. Collaberation that come out of that could be applied to data. >> Absolutely, and it forced second government agencies to rethink how they operate. It forced them to say, well maybe this traditional procurement model doesn't work. How else can we do things? How can we move to more service support? Those types of changes came about from a change in licensing the software. (laughs) >> Exactly. Well, Daniel, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It's been a pleasure, and we look forward to having you on again soon. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for John Furrier, we will have much more from AWS Public Sector Summit, here on theCUBE Teresa Carlson is coming up next. Stay tuned.

(energetic classical music) >> Welcome to Cube Conversations. I'm Stu Miniman. Here with the CEO and co-founder of ThousandEyes Mohit Lad. Thanks so much for joining us here in our Palo Alto studio. >> Thanks too. I'm excited to be here. >> Alright, we always love when we get the founders on. So before we get into the company, take us back. What was the why, what were you seeing in the marketplace, and bring our audience a little bit about your background in the team and what you bring to the table. >> Sounds good. So, my background, personally, is I finished my PhD at TCLA and studied computer science, focused more on the Internet. And one of the reasons we focused-- my co-founder was my colleague as well-- and one of the reasons we focused on studying the Internet was we believed that it was going to dramatically transform our lives, and the quality of our life eventually will be highly dependent on the quality of the Internet. So that's essentially the reason we focused on researching on the Internet, on connectivity and performance. And then as we came out of grad school, and looked at the market, it was clear to us that the ship of the enterprise was dramatically changing because of the adoption of cloud, and SaaS, and infrastructure of service, and that the Internet was going to be a key component of what an enterprise looks like, and it was a black box. So our thesis behind starting the company was to really help companies understand how to manage Internet-centric WAN environments, which is what today's world looks like. >> Okay, for people that don't know ThousandEyes give us how long's the company been in business, the state of the product, how many customers you have, funding, and the like. Give us a snapshot. >> Yeah, so we started in 2010. We had an odd start in many ways because we didn't start with venture funding, so started with a small national SAANS foundation grant. And the result of that was we were very focused on customers from the early days. So for the first two years, very small, about three or four people, and then raised our first round funding in 2012 through Sequoia Capital. As of today, we're about 220 plus employees headquartered in San Francisco. And we split our engineering between San Francisco and London, so these are the two hubs. We also have offices in Austin and New York. And in terms of customers, close to 500 customers at this point of time, a heavy concentration in the mid to high end of the market, so we have more than 50 Fortune 500s, a large concentration of the top financials, and really what excites us is the fact that we're helping decode some really, really complex environments that are becoming more and more complex. >> Yeah, I loved that starting point. You find, in the networking world, there's a lot. It's government, it's scientific, need to understand this. Internet's been a distributor of architecture since the early days, but it's been going through a lot of transformations. Heck, even the TV show Silicon Valley's even talking about a "new Internet." And it's so funny for me to watch that because I'm like, oh wait, I'm talking to the people in here in Silicon Valley that are actually building that with blockchain and decentralization and the like, so its mirroring what's happening in the real world. >> Yeah, and the thing that people sometimes don't realize is the Internet was not built for enterprises. And I tell customers that when you're going to Office 365, when you're going to Amazon, you're relying on the same Internet that your kids are using to watch cat videos. And that's what's carrying your production traffic, and it's really difficult for enterprises to actually make sense of what's slowing things down, where the risk is, what's breaking, and that's where we really help companies understand and take control and thrive in these connected environments. >> It was funny, years ago we used to talk about "the consumerization of IT," and what people use at home will work its way into the enterprise, but you're right. What do businesses need that's different? ThousandEyes has, I believe you call it "Network Intelligence." How is that different than the public standard Internet that you like, and tell us a little bit about what your secret sauce is and what you're bringing to the customers. >> If you think about enterprises from 20 years ago, all the applications would be on the data centers, and it would be a pretty closed environment connected through MPLS connections and so on. So you could deploy the standard APM technologies on the data center to understand what's going on with the applications. And now if you fast forward to today, when you're using something like Office 365 or SalesForce or Workday, or so on, the applications don't sit on your premises anymore, and your network is not just your priority network, but a large portion, in fact, majority of your environment is actually the public Internet. So what is needed for you to thrive in this environment is the ability to actually understand what you depend on and be able to map out not just the user experience of applications that you don't control anymore, but the underlying factors that are impacting that application. And so what we're doing is essentially creating a huge, humongous data set on public performance of the Internet, of different components of the Internet. And we do this with some tremendous data collection but also a lot of smart heuristics that we've built on top, which makes sense of it. And then we marry this data with data we also collect from inside the enterprise. So what we're creating is this environment of a seamless network, and take off this notion of networks today are borderless, right? They really don't have any sort of borders around where the edges and so on. And what we're doing is making sure that customers can look at these hybrid environments as if it's their own private network. >> It's interesting, I think back, when we moved from the client/server era to now, the SaaS environments, like, oh, it'll just magically all work anywhere. I think back to Citrix, has a very heavy networking piece to be able to make those work anywhere. What needs to be fixed, what's kind of under the covers that most people don't understand that in a SaaS environment, solutions like yours are helping to make sure that I can have the promise of anywhere, any device, any cloud? >> Yeah, so a few different things. It's not just the applications are moving to cloud, SaaS. The users are also starting to be a lot more remote and mobile, and what that creates is an environment where a user may be unhappy with the performance of Office 365, and IT's responsible for solving that issue when the traffic is entirely bypassing the corporate environment. So it's going from a Starbucks coffee shop to Office 365 servers, and that's the environment that you're responsible for even though you don't physically control that. And as you think about that, the way we thought about the solution was not just essentially give people visibility into these complex environments, but also create an ecoystem where all these SaaS companies that you rely on as an enterprise are ThousandEyes customers. And we help them decode the Internet, and to large extent, deal with the Internet when they're delivering an application. But as an enterprise, if you're using one of these top SaaS applications, by using ThousandEyes you can not only understand the performance, but you can speak the same language with them when you are trying to troubleshoot and come into a consistent understanding of what the performance is. >> So, you're working with the SaaS providers, you're working with the enterprise, sounds like you're working with both. If I'm an enterprise CIO, and okay, yes, I'm pushing my people to work remote and everything like that, I can't worry about 10,000 employees and the network that they had. Help explain how that works. >> Right, so the requirements of a solution for today's world is beyond just giving visibility. Even if you rewind to the world from 20 years ago, you would find that when there's an issue, there's a lot of finger-pointing going on between the server team, the app team, the network team, and that finger-pointing has become worse in a multi-tenant environment, especially as you use third parties for your applications. So as an example from a few weeks ago, Amazon had a major outage in the East coast. And not only did it take down applications that were hosted on Amazon, but we had customers that were surprised that their applications were not working, and the reason they were not working was they were making, for example, API calls, where the API provider was hosted in Amazon. So they did not even realize the dependencies that they were bringing into their environment. So we had a situation where if we're using a messaging service, and I can't message the person sitting in front of me, because it's going through the Amazon environment. And so its really important in this ecoystem that we as a technology provider create something that helps you connect with each other, rather than just be a siloed solution and that's a huge part of our value chain is to make sure that we can provide you the technology that helps you see through different environments, but also establish good communications back and forth. >> Mohit, networking as an industry has tended to be one of the slower moving pieces of our market. The WAN has been going through such a transformation. You launched in 2010, from 2010 to now 2018, cloud is a much bigger piece, SDWAN wasn't part of our vocabulary. How are thing different now than when you launched the company and how has that impacted your product and your engagement with customers? >> That's a great question. One of the things that I see a lot is this shift in, at least some of the leading customers that we have, a shift towards the notion of network as a core competency. And what I mean by this is when you had environments which were static, so, you're familiar with Visio. People would use Visio to do their network topology maps. They would not change for five years, or maybe three years, depending on the customers. But if you do a Visio map of your extended environment today, it's invalid one second after it's done because the Internet is constantly changing. And so the notion of this network being a static thing is not valid anymore, and companies that need to thrive have to really treat the network as a core competency--and by network, it's not just a network, it's a skill set around networks. Coming back to the trends, the trends that you're seeing are essentially being driven by the fact that you do need to take control of the network, you do need to actually manage it, much more than you used to manage it in the past, and that will give you an edge when it comes to performance to cloud applications, better connectivities, sometimes in situations like SDVAN, it's around reducing cost through MPLS links. >> You've got kind of opposing forces when you look at that. Networking should be a core competency, but don't we have to have to have more intelligence in the network? Leverage all the analytics: machine learning and AI should manage that, 'cause it's changing so fast I can't wait for a person to do that. How do you balance that, how do your customers look at that, and how's that fit into your product? >> So absolutely right, I think networking should be a core competency but networking is not just about connecting devices and using wires to connect things. It's around really understanding what's happening, even understanding what the network actually looks like, because that's something you don't control. There's a lot of focus that we put on analytics, and one of the notions that we've developed over the many years is this notion of network intelligence. And the idea is pretty straightforward. When you're using an Amazon or an Azure, you're going through the same public environments that other customers are going through, and what we do is we essentially mine our entire data set, really understand what are the aspects of the network that are affecting multiple customers, and bridge that into a single cohesive view that is beneficial for you guys. So for example, if you have connectivity issues from the offices here at the CUBE to an Amazon, you would not only know whether it's just you, but you would have more perspective on, hey, this is a larger segment of the customer base of ThousandEyes is actually going through an issue, and here's where the specific issues are. So one of the benefits that the ThousandEyes ecosystem brings to customers is every customer that we add creates more value in the data set. >> How will some of the big waves coming like 5G, IoT, all of the Edge pieces, does that tie into the offering that you have? >> Ultimately, the common denominator for all of this is the Internet, right? Some of these technologies are more towards the last mile, but they have to go through the same core, the Internet, and it's really interesting because one of the user events we did in London a couple weeks ago, we had one of our customers, a large manufacturing company, and they were talking about how they were drilling in Texas, but the drilling was controlled through a site in Belgium, and all of this only worked because the connectivity was reliable. So they were using ThousandEyes to actually ensure that the connectivity between their giant 50 ton driller was maintained to their headquarters. So those are the kinds of applications that, we didn't build it for this specific application, but the fact is we find new ways that ThousandEyes is being used, essentially because there's more and more reliance on the Internet to make things work. >> Any other customer use cases that you want to highlight? Any customer case studies you can share? >> Yeah, so we primarily help with very broadly two sorts of use cases. So one aspect is if you are providing an online service that really depends on the Internet, has a global audience, or even a large regional audience, we help those customers really understand the user experience across the Internet and understand what parts of the Internet may be impacting the applications. So think about all the major SaaS companies that use ThousandEyes, all the major retail banks, they have an online asset that they care about, that's one use case. And then the other use case is enterprise companies. So this is everything from oil and gas, to tech enterprises, to financials. They depend more and more on the Internet when they are going into Cloud and SaaS, and for them it's really unnerving when they look at the environment they're getting into and have no visibility into this black box. So that's where we provide them intelligence into this extended environment and help them understand why a user may be having issues to Office 365 or WebEx, or all of the WYS or IP solutions that are also more and more Internet dependent. >> Mohit, how are your customers doing with the rapid pace of change here? You've talked about networking is a skillset. Finding the right skillset and training people up has always been a big challenge, but what are you seeing in the customers you're talking to? How are they doing these days? >> So the customer's very, depending on the maturity and the transition that they're going through, I still find in a lot of regions that the cloud is still new, SaaS is still new, and we're in many ways in a bubble in the value. Things happen pretty quickly here, but as you step outside you realize that some of the companies are ready to scorse and still making their first strides into SaaS and cloud, and one of the things we help these sets of customers with is essentially helping them plan towards that move. So if you have a large deployment, if you're making a large shift in your infrastructure, even, you think about, let's say a situation where I want to get rid of MPLS, I want to rely on direct Internet circuits, that's a big change, and we can help you measure the performance of MPLS performance of Internet and help you make that data-driven decision. Coming back to the notion of how our customer is doing, there are customers that have realized that network skillsets and engineering around that is core, so they invest a lot of efforts into building that core mindset. There are customers that are starting to build that, and there are customers that are looking at partners to bring that expertise in. So these customers will never build a core set of function around networking, but they look at partners, managed service providers that can bring that expertise into the environments. >> Last thing I want to ask you. You're talking about global networks, we haven't talked about security. Governance and compliance is usually some of the biggest challenges that we are having. The macroeconomic challenges of the Internet. We interviewed the president of ICANN a few years ago, and he gave a warning to our audience that said we might not have one Internet in this near future. We already are starting to see a fragmented Internet, and that could be a huge challenge. Security, governance, compliance, big topics here, but maybe bring us home on that as to what you're seeing and how that affects. >> So one of the things the Internet does, it connects people, right? And when it connects people it also makes it easy for the bad guys to reach the good guys, and so things that concern our audiences in terms of security. The way the Internet works, it's very easy for somebody to announce your address space, for example, and this has happened on several occasions, which creates a denial of service, a different denial of service where all the traffic would go to a party, which is announcing your address space, but not you. So there's all these issues where DNS mapping could be changed, the routing could be changed, and our DDoS attack that happens takes a lot of the upstream environment that you have out of the equation. And so as every day passes, there's more and more things that are being discovered in terms of how attacks can be generated, and how organizations can be brought down. So one example I'll give you which is very specific I've seen is in denial-of-service attacks, this is starting to become pretty routine in today's world. It started with the solutions being on-prem solutions that would detect the volume of traffic and try to filter traffic, and then it moved to using cloud-based solutions, because the volume of traffic would be so high, that you could not actually do this on your end. So you use these cloud-based solutions. You would turn them on when you would detect an attack, and then turn them off. And the financials in particular were always under attack, so now they've gone to a model where they're always turning these things on. A DDoS mediation service, which is based in the cloud. And what has happened, this is a really interesting phenomenon that we've seen, is, let's say, a particular bank, let's say Bank of America is under attack. The same provider that's protecting Bank of America is also protecting Wells Fargo and JP Morgan, and that infrastructure under stress could mean that Wells Fargo could actually have availability issues even though they are not under attack. So one of the things we see in the Internet is this notion of collateral damage, where you may not be the actual victim or target of an attack, but because of shared infrastructure, you're collateral damage. These are the scenarios which place more and more of an importance on gathering this intelligence on what's going on in the Internet. >> Mohit Lad, really appreciate you coming to help share with our audience everything that's happening in the WAN, network intelligence, multi-cloud, global environment world. Look forward to catching up with you more in the future. This has been a CUBE Conversation, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching the CUBE. (energetic classical music)

(Latin music) >> Narrator: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE! Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to by Blockchain Industries. (Latin music) >> Welcome back to our exclusive Puerto Rico coverage, here, this is theCUBE for Blockchain Unbound, the future of blockchain cryptocurrency, the decentralized web, the future of society, the world, of work, et cetera, play, it's all happening right here, I'm reporting it, the global internet's coming together, my next guest is Fred Krueger, a founder and CEO of a new innovative approach called WorkCoin, the future of work, he's tackling. Fred, great to see you! >> Thank you very much, John. >> So we saw each other in Palo Alto at the D10e at the Four Seasons, caught up, we're Facebook friends, we're LinkedIn friends, just a quick shout out to you, I saw you livestreaming Brock Pierce's keynote today, which I thought was phenomenal. >> Yeah, it was a great keynote. >> Great work. >> And it's Pi Day. >> It's Pi Day? >> And I'm a mathematician, so, it's my day! (Fred laughs) >> It's geek day. >> It's geek day. >> All those nerds are celebrating. So, Fred, before we get into WorkCoin, I just want to get your thoughts on the Brock Pierce keynote, I took a video of it, with my shaky camera, but I thought the content was great. You have it up on Facebook on your feed, I just shared it, what was your takeaway of his message? I thought it was unedited, obviously, no New York Times spin here, no-- >> Well first of all, it's very authentic, I've known Brock 10 years, and, I think those of us who have known Brock a long time know that he's changed. He became very rich, and he's giving away, and he really means the best. It's completely from the heart, and, it's 100% real. >> Being in the media business, kind of by accident, and I'm not a media journalist by training, we're all about the data, we open our datas, everyone knows we share the free content. I saw the New York Times article about him, and I just saw it twisted, okay? The social justice warriors out there just aren't getting the kind of social justice that he's actually trying to do. So, you've known him for 10 years, I see as clear as day, when it's unfiltered, you say, here's a guy, who's eccentric, smart, rich now, paying it forward? >> Yep. >> I don't see anything wrong with that. >> Look, I think that the-- >> What is everyone missing? >> There's a little jealously, let's be honest, people resent a little bit, and I think part of it's the cryptocurrency world's fault. When your symbol of success is the Lamborghini, it's sort of like, this is the most garish, success-driven, money-oriented crowd, and it reminds me a little bit of the domain name kind of people. But Brock's ironically not at all that, so, he's got a-- >> If you look at the ad tech world, and the domain name world, 'cause they're all kind of tied together, I won't say underbelly, but fast and loose would be kind of the way I would describe it. >> Initially, yes, ad tech, right? So if you look at ad tech back in say, I don't know, 2003, 2004, it was like gunslingers, right? You wanted to by some impressions, you'd go to a guy, the guy'd be like, "I got some choice impressions, bro." >> I'll say a watch too while I'm at it. >> Yeah, exactly. (John laughs) That was the ad tech world, right? And that world was basically replaced by Google and Facebook, who now control 80% of the inventory, and it's pretty much, you go to a screen, it's all service and that's it. I don't know if that's going to be the case in cryptocurrencies, but right now, initially, you sort of have this, they're a Wild West phenomenon. >> Any time you got alpha geeks, and major infrastructure application developer shift happening, which is happening, you kind of look at these key inflection points, you need to kind of have a strong community self-policing policy, if you look at the original DNS days, 'cause you remember, I was there too, Jon Postel, rest in peace, godspeed, we all know what he did, Vint Cerf with TCP/IP, the core dudes, and gals, back then, they were tight! So any kind of new entrants that came in had to prove their worth. I won't say they were the most welcoming, 'cause they were nervous of people to infect the early formation, mostly they're guys, they're nerds. >> Right, so I think if you look back at domain names, back in the day, a lot of people don't know this, but Jon Postel actually kept the list of domain names in a text file, right? You had basically wanted a domain name, you called Jon up, and you said, "I'd like my name added to the DNS," and he could be like, "Okay, let me add it "to the text file." Again, these things all start in a very sort of anarchic way, and now-- >> But they get commercial. >> It gets commercial, and it gets-- >> SAIC, Network Solutions, in various time, we all know the history, ICANN, controlled by the Department of Commerce up until a certain point in time-- >> Uh, 'til about four years ago, really. >> So, this is moving so fast. You're a student of the industry, you're also doing a startup called WorkCoin, what is the formula for success, what is your strategy, what are you guys doing at WorkCoin, take a minute to explain what you guys are doing, your team, your approach-- >> So let's start with the problem, right? If you look at freelancing, right now, everybody knows that a lot of people freelance, and I don't think people understand how many people freelance. There are 57 million people in America who freelance. It's close to 50%, of us, don't actually have jobs, other than freelancing. And so, this is a slow moving train, but it's basically moving in the direction of more freelancers, and we're going to cross the 50% mark-- >> And that's only going to get bigger, because of virtual work, the global workforce, no boundaries-- >> Right, and so it's global phenomena, right? Freelancing is just going up, and up, and up. Now, you would think in this world, there would be something like Google where you could sit there, and go type patent attorney, and you could get 20 patent attorneys that would be competing for your business, and each one would have their price, and, you could just click, and hire a patent attorney, right? Is that the case? >> No. >> No, okay. >> I need a patent attorney. >> So, what if you have to hire a telegram manager for your telegram channel? Can you find those just by googling telegram manager, no. So basically-- >> The user expectation is different than the infrastructure can deliver it, that's what you're basically saying. >> No, what I'm saying is it should be that way, it is not that way, and the reason it's not that way is that basically, there's no economics to do that with credit cards, so, if you're building a marketplace where it's kind of these people are find each other, you need the economics to make sense. And when you're being charged 3.5% each way, plus you have to worry about chargebacks, buyer fraud, and everything else, you can't built a marketplace that's open and transparent. It's just not possible. And I realized six months ago, that with crypto, you actually could. Not that it's going to be necessarily easy, but, technically, it is possible. There's zero marginal cost, once I'm taking in crypto, I'm paying out crypto, in a sort of open marketplace where I can actually see the person, so I could hire John Furrier, not John F., right? >> But why don't you go to LinkedIn, this is what someone might say. >> Well, if you go to LinkedIn, first of all, the person there might not be in the market, probably is not in the market for a specific service, right? You can go there, then you need to message them. And you just say, "Hey, your profile looks great, "I noticed you're a patent attorney, "you want to file this patent for me?" And then you have to negotiate, it's not a transactional mechanism, right? >> It's a lot of steps. >> It's not transactional, right? So it's not click, buy, fund, engage, it just doesn't work that way. It's just such a big elephant in the room problem, that everybody has these problems, nobody can find these good freelancers. What do you end up doing? You end up going to Facebook, and you go, "Hey, does anybody know any good patent attorneys?" That's what you do. >> That's a bounty. >> Well, it's kind of, yeah. >> It's kind of a social bounty. "Hey hive, hey friends, does anyone know anything?" >> It's social proof, right? Which is another thing that's very important, because, if John, if you were-- >> Hold on, take a minute to explain what social proof is for the folks. >> Social proof is just the simple concept that it's a recommendation coming from somebody that you know, and trust. So, for example, I may not be interested in your video services, John, but I know you, and I am in the business of a graphic designer, and you're like, "Fred, I know this amazing graphic designer, "and she's relatively cheap." Okay, well that's probably good enough for me to at least start looking at her work, and going the next step. On the other hand, if I'm just looking at 100 graphic designers, I do not know. >> It's customized contextual data, around a specific transaction from a trusted source. So you socially, are connected to, or related. >> It, sort of, think about this, it doesn't even have to be a source that you know, it could be just a source that you know of, right? So, to use the Brock example again, Brock's probably not going to be selling his services on my platform, but what if he recommends somebody, people like giving the gift of recommendation. So Brock knows a lot of people, may not be doing as well as him, right? And he's like, "Well, this guy could be a fantastic guy "to hire as social media manager," for example. Helping out a guy that needs a little bit of work. >> And endorsement's a major thing. >> It is giving something, right? You're giving your own brand, by saying, "I stand behind this person." >> Alright, so tell me about where you are with WorkCoin, honestly, people might not know your background, if you check him out on LinkedIn, Fred Krueger, mathematician, Stanford PhD, well-educated, from a centralized organization, like Stanford, has a good reputation, you're a math guy, is there math involved? Obviously, Blockchain's math related, you got crypto, how are you guys building this out, share a little bit of, if you can, show a little leg on the tech-- >> The tech is sort of simple. So basically the way it is, is right now it's built in Google Cloud, but we have an interface where you can fund the thing, and so it's built, first of all, that's the first thing. We built it on web and mobile. And you can basically buy WorkCoins from the platform itself, using Ethereum, and also, we've integrated with Sensei, a different token. So, we can integrate with different tokens, so you're using these tokens to fund the coin, to fund your account, right? And then, once you have the tokens in your account, you can then buy services with them, right? And then the service provider, the minute they finish delivery of the service, to your expectation, they get the coin in their account, and then they can transfer that coin back into Ethereum, or Bitcoin, or whatever, to cash out. >> Okay, so wait, now that product's built, has the coins been issued? Are you guys doing an ICO? Are you raising money? >> So we're in the middle of an ICO-- >> Private? >> Private, only for now. So we've raised just under $4,000,000-- >> Great, congratulations. >> I have no idea if that's good or not-- >> Well, it's better than a zero (laughs). >> It's better than zero, right? It is better than zero, right? >> So there's interest obviously. >> Yeah, so look, we've got a lot of interest in our product, and I think part of the interest is it's very simple. A lot of people can go, "I think this thing makes sense." Now, does that mean we're going to be completely successful in taking over the world, I don't know. >> Well, I mean, you got some tailwinds at your back. One, the infrastructure in e-commerce, and the things that you're going after, are 20-year-old stacks. Number two, the business model, and expectation of the users, is shifting radically, and expectations are different, and there's no actual product that does it (laughs), so. >> So a lot of these ICOs, I think they're going to have technical problems actually building into the specification. 'Cause it's difficult, when you're dealing with the Blockchain, first of all, you're building on some movable platform, right? I met some people just today who are building on Hash-Craft, now, that's great, but Hash-Craft is like one day old, you know? So you're building on something that is one day old, and they've just announced their coin five minutes ago, you know. Again, that's great, but normally as a developer myself, I'm used to building on things that are years old, I mean, even something that's three years old is new. >> This momentum going on, that someone might want to tout Hash-Craft for is, 'cause it's got momentum-- >> It's got total momentum. >> They're betting on an ecosystem. But that brings up the other thing I want to get your thoughts on, because we've observed this at Polycon, we've been watching the industry landscape now, onto our 10th year, there's almost an ecosystem stake in the ground. The good news is, ecosystem's developing. You got entrepreneurs, you got projects, you got funding coming in, but as it's going to be a fight for the ecosystem, because you can't have zillion ecosystems, eventually they have to be-- >> Well, you know-- >> Or can you? >> Here's the problem, that everybody's focused on the plumbing right now, right, the infrastructure? But, what they should be focusing it on is the app. And I've a question for you, and I've asked this question to my advisors and investors, which are DNA Fund, and I say-- >> Let's see if I get it right, it's a test here on the spot, I love this, go. >> Okay, so here's the question, how many, in your wallet right now, on your mobile phone, show me how many Blockchain apps you have right now. >> Uh, zero, on my phone? >> Okay, zero. >> Well I have a burner phone for my other one, so (laughs). >> But on any phone, on any phone that you possess, how many Blockchain apps do you have on your phone? >> Wallet or apps? >> An app that you-- >> Zero. >> An app, other than a wallet, zero, right? Every single person I've asked in this conference has the same number, zero. Now, think about this, if you'd-- >> Actually, I have one. >> Uh, which one? >> It's called Cube Coin. >> Okay, there you go, Cube Coin. But, here's the problem, if you went to a normal-- >> Can I get WorkCoin right now? >> Yeah, well not right now, but I have it on my wallet. So for example, it's in test flight, but my point is I have a fully functional thing I can go buy services, use the coin, everything, in an app. I think this is one of the things-- >> So, hypothetically, if I had an application that was fully functional, with Blockchain, with cryptocurrency, with ERC 2 smart contracts, I would be ahead of the game? >> You would be ahead of the game. I mean, I think-- >> Great news, guys! >> And I think you absolutely are thinking the right thinking, because, everybody's just looking at the plumbing, and, look, I love EOS, but, it's sort of a new operating system, same as Hash-Craft, but you need apps to run on your thing-- >> First of all, I love chatting with you, you're super smart, folks out there, Fred is someone you should check out, you got great advisor potential. You're right on this, I want to test something out with you, I've been thinking about this for a while. If you think about the OSI model, OSI stack, for the younger kids, that was a key movement that generated the key standards in the stack for inner networking, and physical devices. So, it was started from the bottom up. The top of the stack actually never standardized, it became the presentation session layer, they differentiated, then eventually became front end. If you look at what's happening now, the top of the stack is really the ones that's standardizing, or standardizing with business logic, the bottom of the stack has many different versions of say, Blockchain, so the question is is that, it might be the world that will never have a TCP/IP moment, it might be that the business app logic will dictate to some sort of abstraction layer, down to programmable plumbing. You see this with cloud with DevOps. So the question is, do see it that way? I'm thinking out loud here, but when I'm seeing the trend here, it's just that, people who make the business logic decisions first, and nail those, that they're far more successful swapping out and hedging on the plumbing. >> Look, I think you mentioned the word alpha geek, and I think you've just defined yourself as an alpha geek. Let's just go in Denzel Washington's set in the movie Philadelphia, talk to me like I'm a five year old, okay? What is the problem you're solving? >> The app, you said it, it's the app! >> My point is like, everybody is walking around with apps, if the thing doesn't fit on an app, it's not solving any problem, that's the bottom line. I don't care whether you're-- >> You're validating the concept that all that matters is the app, the plumbing will sort itself out. >> I think so. >> Is that a dependency, or is it an interdependency? >> What do you need in a plumbing? Here's how I think you should think. Do I need 4,000 transactions per second? I would say, rarely, most people are not sitting there going, "I need to do 4,000 transactions per second." >> If you need that, you've already crossed the finish line, you probably want a proprietary solution. >> Just to put things in perspective, Bitcoin does 300,000 transactions per day. >> Well, why does Ripple work? Ripple works because they nailed the business model. >> I'll tell you what I think of Ripple-- >> What's your take? >> Why ripple works, I think all, and I'm not the first person to say this, but I think that, the thing that works right now, the core application of all this stuff, is money, right? That's the core thing. Now, if you're talking about documents on the Blockchain, is that going to be useful, perhaps. In a realist's say in the Blockchain, perhaps. Poetry on the Blockchain, maybe. Love on the Blockchain? Why ban it, you know? >> Hey, there's crypto-kiddies on the Blockchain, love is coming next. >> Love is coming next. But, the core killer app, the killer app, is money. It's paying people. That is the killer app of the Blockchain right now, okay? So, every single one of the things that's really successful is about paying people. So what is Bitcoin? Bitcoin is super great, for taking money, and moving it out of China, and into the United States. Or out of Nigeria, and into Switzerland, right? You want to take $100,000 out of Nigeria, and move it to Switzerland? Bitcoin is your answer. Now, you want to move money from bank A to bank B, Ripple is your answer, right? (John laughs) If you want to move money from Medellin, Colombia, that you use in narcos, Moneiro is probably your crypto of choice, you know? (John laughs) Business truly anonymous. And I think it's really about payment, right? And so, I look at WorkCoin as, what is the killer thing you're doing here, you're paying people. You're paying people for work, so, it's designed for that. That's so simple. >> The killer app is money, Miko Matsumura would say, open source money, that's his narrative, love that vision. Okay, if money's the killer app, the rest is all kind of window dressing around trying to race to-- >> I think it's the killer, it's the initial killer app. I think we need to get to the point where we all, not all of us, but where enough of us start transacting, with money, with digital money, and then after digital money, there will be other killer apps, right? It's sort of like, if you look at the internet, and again, I'm repeating somebody else's argument-- >> It's Fred Krueger's hierarchy of needs, money-- >> Money starts, right? >> Money is the baseline. >> The initial thing, what was the first thing of internet? I was on the internet before it was the internet. It was called the ARPANET, at Stanford, right? I don't know if you remember those days-- >> I do remember, yeah, I was in college. >> But the ARPANET, it was email, right? We had the first versions of email. And that was back in 1986. >> Email was the killer app for 15, 20 years. >> It was the killer app, right? And I think-- >> For 15 or 20 years. >> Absolutely, well before websites, you know? So I think, we got to solve money first. And I bless everybody who has got some other model, and maybe they're right, maybe notarization of documents on the internet is a-- >> There's going to be use cases for Blockchain, some obvious low-hanging fruit, but, that's not revolutionary, that's not game-changing, what is game-changing is the promise of a new decentralized infrastructure. >> Here's the great thing that's absolutely killer about what this whole world is, and this is why I'm very bullish, it's, if you look at the internet of transmitting value, from one node to another node, credit cards just do not do a very good job of that, right? So, you can't put a credit card inside a machine, very well, at all, right? It doesn't work! And very simple reason, why? Because you get those Amex fraud alerts. (John laughs) Now the machine, if he's paying another machine, the second machine doesn't know how to interpret the first machine's Amex fraud alerts. So, the machine has to pay in, the machine's something that's immutable. I'm paying you a little bit of token. The classic example is the self-driving car that pays the gas pump, 'cause it's a gas self-driving car, it pays it to fill up, and the gas pump may have to pay its landlord in rent, and all of this is done with tokens, right? With credit cards, that does not work. So it has to be tokens. >> Well, what credit cards did for other transactions a little bit simplifies your things, there's a whole 'nother wave coming, that just makes it easier and reduces the steps. >> It reduces the friction, and that's why I think, actually, the killer app's going to be marketplaces, because, if you look at a marketplace, whether it's a marketplace like ours, for freelancers, or your marketplace for virtual goods, and like wax, or whatever it is, right? I think marketplaces, where there's no friction, where once you've paid, it's in. There's no like, I want my money back. That is a killer app, it's an absolute killer app. I think we're going to see real massive consumer adoption with that, and that's ultimately, I think, that's what we need, because if it's all just business models, and people touting their 4,000 transactions a second, that's not going to fly. >> Well Fred, you have a great social graph, that's socially proved, you got a great credentials, in mathematics, PhD from Stanford, you reinvent nine, how many exits? >> Nine exits. >> Nine exits. You're reinventing freelancing on the Blockchain, you're an alpha geek, but you can also explain things to a five year old, great to have you on-- >> Thank you very much John. >> Talk about the WorkCoin, final word, get the plugin for WorkCoin, can people use it now, when is it going to be available-- >> Look, you can go check out our platform, as Miko said, Miko's an advisor, and Miko said, "Fred, think of it as a museum, "you can come visit the museum, "you're not going to see a zillion, "but you can do searches there, you can find people." The museum is not fully operational, right? You can come and check it out, you can take a look at the trains at the museum, the trains will finally operate once we're finished with our ICO, we can really turn the thing on, and everything will work, and what I'd like you to do, actually, you can follow our ICO, if you're not American, you can invest in our ICO-- >> WorkCoin dot-- >> Net. >> Workcoin.net >> Workcoin.net, and, really, at the end, if you have some skill that you can sell on the internet, you're a knowledge worker, you can do anything. List your skill for sale, right? And then, that's the first thing. If you're a student at home, maybe you can do research reports. I used to be a starving student at Stanford. I was mainly spending my time in the statistics department, if somebody said, "Fred, instead of grading "undergrad papers, we'll pay you money "to do statistical work for a company," I would be like, "That would be amazing!" Of course, nobody said that. >> And anyways, you could also have the ability to collaborate with some quickly, and do a smart contract, you could do some commerce, and get paid. >> And get paid for it! >> Hey, hey! >> How 'about that, so I just see-- >> Move from the TA's grading papers payroll, which is like peanuts-- >> And maybe make a little bit more doing something that's more relevant to my PhD. All I know is there's so many times where I've said, my math skills are getting rusty, and I was like, I'd really wish I could talk to somebody who knew something about this distribution, or, could help me-- >> And instantly, magically have them-- And I can't even find them! Like, I have no idea, I have no idea how I would go and find people at Stanford Institute, I would have no idea. So if I could type Stanford, statistics, and find 20 people there, or USC Statistics, imagine that, right? That could change the world-- >> That lowers the barriers, friction barriers, to-- >> Everybody could be hiring graduate students. >> Well it's not just hiring, collaborating too. >> Collaborating, yeah. >> Everything. >> And any question that you have, you know? >> Doctor doing cancer research, might want to find someone in China, or abroad, or in-- >> It's a worldwide thing, right? We have to get this platform so it's open, and so everybody kind of goes there, and it's like your identity on there, there's no real boundary to how we can get. Once we get started, I'm sure this'll snowball. >> Fred, I really appreciate you taking the time-- >> Thanks a lot for your time. >> And I love your mission, and, we support you, whatever you need, WorkCoin, we got to find people out there to collaborate with, otherwise you're going to get pushed fake news and fake data, best way to find it is through someone's profile on WorkCoin-- >> Thanks. >> Was looking forward to seeing the product, I'm John Furrier, here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, Restart Week, a lot of great things happening, Brock Pierce on the keynote this morning really talking about his new venture fund, Restart, which is going to be committed 100% to Puerto Rico, this is where the action will be, we will be following this exclusive story, continuing, we'll be back with more, thanks for watching. (soothing electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Nice, France. Its the Cube, covering .Next Conference 2017, Europe. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching, Silicon Angle Medias production of the Cube. World Wide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guest, Anja Manuel, who's a Co-founder and partner at, Rice Hadley Gates. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Anja: Thank you for having me, Stu. >> So, I've attended all five of the Nutanix conferences. And definitely, when we get a speaker at the Key Note from R.H.G. is one of the highlights. So, Condoleezza Rice, everybody's like, how does Nutanix get Condie Rice to come in? Robert Gates, we've actually had the pleasure of having him on the Cube. We've had Stephen Hadley on in D.C. also. And a little bit different conversation than some of the, kind of, in the weeds technical discussion. So, Anja for our audience that's not familiar, give us a little bit about your background, what you led you in to be one of the founders. >> Absolutely. Well, I've done a bit of everything. I've been an investment banker, a lawyer doing international cases. I have worked at the State Department for Condie Rice, mostly on Asia issues. And, then at the very end of 2008, Condie, Steve and I founded this firm. And we feel very lucky to be working with each other and some of the great, young and already, some already large, some fast growing tech companies in the Valley. And helping them expand around the world. And it's been a particular pleasure to work with Dheeraj and his team at Nutanix. When we started with them, they were a couple hundred people. And now look around, you've got 2,000 people at this conference. So, we're very proud of them. >> Yeah, absolutely. Great growth for Nutanix, their eco-system's blossoming. One of the jokes I always have here on the Cube is, when I talk to any end user customers, its like, well your industry's not changing that much, right? And of course, it doesn't matter what industry you're in. Digital disruption is more than just what it's affecting. Globalization is just a fact of life. It brings, especially for a lot our audiences, USA based, we reach a global audience. But when we come to some of these international events, it really puts a point on some of the things going on globally. What're you talking to, when you speak to the CIOs and you're talking to Nutanix customers and partners, what are some of the big challenges? What are the things that they need to be looking at? >> Sure, globalization is happening and of course, it's more pronounced in tech. This is the first industry that really shows no sectoral boundaries. The big platform companies can basically go into any industry sector and no geographic boundaries. It's very easy to expand internationally. So, what I'm going to be talking about today on the main stage is just globalization and its backlash. As you know we've seen, after decades of evermore, open boarders, increase trade, easier immigration, and the last year or two, you've seen really the West in sort of, what I would call a defensive crouch. And there are real reasons for it in the US where you and I both live. If you are a white male, who has a high school education or less, you live on average, 10 years less than all of the very highly educated people in this room. And there is a real issue of people being left behind. And you can see that impact politically. You see it in the US, with Trump, and I would also argue on the left with Bernie Sanders. You see it with Brexit. You see it in the impact that Marine Le Pen and Aten a Tiva for Deutschland and others have had on European politics. And I would say that impact is strong, even though those right wing parties in Europe didn't win, they're setting the agenda much more than you would've seen 10 years ago. So it's something for the tech companies to consider as they keep expanding. >> Yeah, it's a trade. On the one hand, you said that there's no boundaries for tech, but one of the things a lot of the tech community, we look at, is some of those fragments that are happening. So, like, the internet. Is the internet a global internet or does China have their own internet? Will Germany just create their own internet? And how much is governance, and having data something we look and Nutanix looks at a lot, require that you have it within those boarders, and the boundaries between government and corporations now? There's certain countries where governments are heavily involved and certain ones where it almost feels that they're fighting. In the US, it's, is the government actually helping business or stopping business? >> That's right. >> Is something that we ask a lot. So I'm curious, your thoughts. >> Well, right now, we still have one global interoperable internet and that has been a huge boon to economies all around the world. Not just the American one. And it's this little known organization called ICANN, which was started in the 1990s. It has a convoluted thing called the multi stake holder model, where they say, we're going to get people, the technologists who are working on this and GOs and governments and everyone talking about how do we actually manage this thing and make sure that it stays interoperable and global. And I'm quite happy that that system of internet governance still stands and that it hasn't been taken over by individual governments or by the United Nations. You talked about data localization. It's a real issue. We see this with a lot of the tech companies that we work with out in California. More and more. You see the Russians doing it. You see the Chinese doing it. And I worry that if that trend really continues, you will have less interaction, for example, between Chinese and Americans, which is something we so dramatically need, now that our governments seem to be more and more at odds with each other. It's more important than ever that the companies and the people are talking to each other. >> Yeah, I actually, we interviewed the former president of ICANN, Fadi Chehade, a couple of years ago and he was raising red flags as to concern about would the US step back. Cause really, it put that in place, and had a very strong connection there. So would the US, kind of, advocate from some of this or how would that be involved? So you're happy with the way ICANN's going and kind of the global discussion? >> I was very happy to see that the United States allowed it to be privatized. Which is something that'd been planned for a long time. So we're quite happy that it happened the way it did. And that even the new Trump administration didn't stop that from going through, yeah. >> All right, you've written a lot about India, some of the others. How do companies, even in the global market place? Do they have to specialize in what they're doing? Certain regionalizations, that they need to do or how do they, global company, interact in some of the more emerging markets? >> Yeah, they do have to specialize. And I think sometimes, in Silicon Valley, we're so confident in our own abilities that sometimes we think, well if it's invented here, naturally the world will love it. That worked for Facebook. It worked for Google. It doesn't necessarily work for every technology company. And so, yes, of course you have to tailor it to the local market. And there are some innovations coming out of China and India that are, frankly, really impressive and we should adopt some of them. And China, the web payments infrastructure is much more advanced than what you see in the US. Lots of people do everything through their WeChat account. They pay, they interact, they talk. It's not just texting. It's a whole echo system in a way that we haven't really seen as much in the US and Europe. So we can learn from them as well. >> Yeah so another interesting topic is, Silicon Valley prides itself on being the center of innovation. What're you seeing globally, are there certain areas or pockets? Can there be other Silicon Valleys for different technologies or is Silicon Valley going to be the Silicon Valley for all of these waves? >> Well, we are the biggest Silicon Valley. And it is a very unique eco-system. I'm lucky enough to teach at Stanford and to work with some of these tech companies. The idea that a university and a venture capital eco-system and entrepreneurs all work together in something that isn't directed by the state is very very important. And you do see these springing up everywhere. You have it in Bangalore. You have it in Boston, where you're from. You have it outside of London. You're seeing a little bit in Berlin happening. You're seeing it in China in a much bigger way than I think people appreciate. I'll give you one story. I was at the Chinese World Internet Forums, sort of their vision of the world internet, a year and a half ago. And I get back to my hotel at midnight, ready to just go to bed, and there are a thousand people in the lobby. All with their phones out. And I'm wondering, who's coming? Is it Xi Xin Ping? Is it some rock star? In walks Jack Ma and the CEO of Xiaomi phones. And a huge shout goes up as if it's the Beatles. So if you're a young millennial Chinese person, you want to be Jack Ma. So innovation fever has captured them as well. >> Yeah, what about companies being global versus being based in a country? What advice do you give to how they balance that headquarters versus being a global company? >> Yeah, this is one of the ironies and all the protectionist talk you see from governments because I think the cat is out of the bag. So to speak. Every company we work with, even the very young ones, they're global from the very beginning. Even if you think your headquarters are in New York or in California, you're supply chain most likely, incorporates 10 different countries. Your customers are somewhere else. Maybe you don't advertise it because you try to be an all American company or all European company, but there's actually no such thing as a domestic company anymore. >> I want to give you the final word. Nutanix, you give some advice. I'm sure there's things we can't talk about. But how are they doing as being a global company? What are some of the things a company like Nutanix that they'll face as they expand globally? >> Yeah, Nutanix is very impressive. First of all, if you look at Dheeraj and Sudheesh and their senior management team, what I love about working with them, is that they are good technically, they're great at the people to people skills and they are instantly global just like we just talked about. If you look at their management team, they're from all over the world. And they very quickly got people out into all the different regions. I think they try to be sensitive to how their product would be used in different places around the world. So I'm quite optimistic about what they're going to be able to achieve. >> Okay, I do have one last question for you. I was just thinking about that globalization. One of the concerns we have these days is getting enough women in tech and with your global viewpoint, just women in the workforce is still something that we're challenged with in many parts of the globe. What's your take? >> Yeah, strangely, women in the workforce are doing better in China, for example, than in the US, Europe, India, other places. I love living and working in Silicon Valley. We really have a problem. And we need to do more. And it's on the stem side. It's on the investor side. You've seen all of the news coming out about how it's so much harder for a woman entrepreneurs to get funded. There's no reason. There's actually a recent study done saying that women who get funded, their companies do, on average, far better than companies founded by men. So clearly there's some problem going on here and I'm happy that Silicon Valley's finally paying attention. >> Well Anju Manuel, really appreciate you joining us for this segment. I'm Stu Miniman and we will be back with more coverage here from Nutanix .Next in Nice, France. You're watching the Cube.

>> Hello, we are here On the Ground. This is theCUBE's On the Ground program at Centrify's Headquarters. We go to Cricket Liu, chief DNS officer at Infoblox. Been with the company from the beginning. Great to see you again. Wrote the book on DNS. What year was that? That was between DNS, was like, when I was born. >> Yeah, 1992. September 1992 was when it was published. >> Great to see you. We've done some podcasts together over the years. >> Yeah, good to see you too. >> DNS, now obviously global, ICANN's now global, it's part of the U.N., all different governance bodies, but it's certainly still critical infrastructure. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Critical infrastructure is now the big conversation as the security paradigm has moved from data center to the Cloud, there's no perimeter anymore. >> Yeah. >> How is that changing the DNS game? >> Well, I think that folks are starting to realize how critical DNS is. In October of last year, we had that huge DDoS attack against Dyn, the big DNS hosting provider in New Hampshire and I think that woke a lot of folks up. A lot of folks realized, holy cow, these guys are not too big to fail as they say. Even though they have enormous infrastructure, widely distributed around the globe, they have such a concentrational power that a huge number of really, really popular web properties were inaccessible for quite sometime, so I think that caused a lot of people to look at their own DNS infrastructure and to reevaluate it and say, well maybe I need to do something. >> Interesting about the stack wars that are going on, that attack, as we've lived through and you've been part of it as chief technical officer in many companies. DNS was always that part where it'd be secure but now you have block change, you have new kinds of infrastructure with mobile computing now over 10 years post iPhone. >> Yep, the critical moment. >> How has infrastructure changed, beyond DNS 'cause it still needs to work together? >> Yeah, well, it's funny because we do have all of these new types of devices. We do have new technologies. But a lot of things have remained the same. DNS is still the same. The remarkable thing is that the latest version in my book is 10 years old, actually 11 years old now, so it's older than the iPhone and people still buy it because the underlying theory is still the same. It hasn't changed. It's a testament, really, to the quality of the original design of DNS that it still works for anything and that it's scaled to serve a network as diverse and as large as the internet is today. >> What's your biggest observation, looking back over the past decade with DNS, about the emergence of virtual machines, now Cloud. Again, the game is still the same 'cause DNS is the plumbing and it provides a lot of the key critical infrastructure for the web and now mobile. What's the biggest observations that you've seen over the decade? >> Well I'd say one of the things that's happened over the last several years that's maybe the most important development in DNS is something that we call response policy zones. Up until now, DNS servers have just been sort of blithely complicit when it comes to, for example, malware. Malware wakes up on a device and it assumes that it has DNS available to it and it uses DNS, for example, to find command to control server, maybe a drop server to exfiltrate data to. In the DNS server, even though it's being asked to look up the address record for CommandAndControlServer.Malware.Org, it just happily goes along with it. A few years ago, Paul Vixie, who I've known for a very long time, came up with this idea called response policy zones which is basically to imbue our DNS servers with resolution policy so that you can tell them, hey if you get a query for a domain name that we know is being used maliciously, don't answer it. Don't resolve it like you normally do. Instead, hand back a little white lie like that doesn't exist and moreover, log the fact that somebody looked it up because it's a good indication that they're infected. >> So bringing policy to DNS is really making it more intelligent. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And certainly as networks grow, I was just watching some of my friends setting up the wireless at Burning Man and the whole new change of how Wi-Fi is being deployed and how networks are being constructed is really coming down to some of the basic principles of DNS to route more, be responsive, and this is kind of a new change. >> Yeah, there's a lot going on in changes to the deployment of DNS. It used to be that most big companies ran all their own DNS infrastructure. At this point, I think most large companies don't bother running, for example, what we'd call their external authoritative DNS infrastructure. They give that to a big hosting provider to do, somebody like Dyn or Verisign or Neustar or somebody like that, so that's a big change. >> Cricket, I want to ask you about the CyberConnect Event going on in New York. Infoblox is involved. Security is paramount, so now an industry event. Centrify is the main sponsor. You guys are involved as a vendor, but it's not a vendor event, it's a industry event. It's a broad category. What's your thoughts on this kind of industry event? Usually in events it's been Black Hat or vendor events pushing their wares and selling their stuff but now security is global. What's your take on this event? >> Well, I'm hoping to be able to spend a little bit of time talking to folks who come to the event about DNS and how it can be used as a tool in their security tool chain. The folks who come to us as Infoblox to our events already know about DNS. They're already network administrators or they're responsible for DNS or something like that. My hope is that we can reach a broader audience through CyberConnect and actually talk to folks who maybe haven't considered DNS as a security tool. Who maybe haven't thought about the necessity to bolster their DNS infrastructure. >> One final question since we're on bonus material time. I've got to ask you about the global landscape. I mean, in my early days involved in DNS when I came was from the '98 to the 2000 time frame. International domain names were Unicode. That's not ASCII. So that technically wasn't DNS, but still, they were keywords. They had this global landscape in, say, China, that actually wasn't DNS so there's all these abstraction layers. Has anything actually evolved out of that trend of really bringing an abstraction layer on top of DNS and certainly now with the nation-states with security are issues, China, Russia, et cetera. How does all that play out? >> Well, international domain names have actually taken off in some areas. And basically it's as you say, you have the ability now to use Unicode labels in domain names in certain contexts, for example, if you're using your web browser you can type in a Unicode domain name and then what the web browser does is it translates it into an equivalent ASCII representation and then resolves it using DNS which is the traditional DNS that doesn't actually know about Unicode. There are actually some very interesting security implications to using Unicode. For example, people can register things that have Unicode, we would say, glyphs in them that look exactly like regular ASCII characters. For example, you could register paypal.com where the A's are actually lowercase A's in Cyrillic. It's not the same code point as an ASCII A. So it's visually. >> Great for hackers. >> Oh yeah. Visually indistinguishable from paypal.com in a lot of contexts and people might click on it and go to a page that looks like PayPal's. >> John: So its a phishing dream. >> Yeah, really dangerous potentially and so we're working out some of the implications of that, trying to figure out, within, for example, web browsers, how do we protect the user from things like this? >> And a lot of SSL out there, now you're seeing HTTPS everywhere. Is that now the norm? >> Yeah, actually, within the internet engineering task force, the IETF, after it became obvious that state-sponsored-- >> John: Attacks. >> Eavesdropping. >> You were smiling. >> Was kind of the norm. >> Got to find the right word. >> Yeah, the IETF embarked on an effort called DPRIVE and DPRIVE is basically a bunch of individual tracks to encrypt basically every single part of the DNS channel, especially that between what we call a stub resolver and the recursive DNS server so that if you're a customer here in the United States and a subscriber to an ISP like Comcast or whomever, you can make sure that that first hop between your computer and the ISP is secured. >> We're getting down and dirty under the hood with Cricket Liu on DNS. I got to ask kind of up level to the consumer. One of the things that kind of pisses me off the most when I'm surfing the web is you see the browser doesn't resolve or you go hit someone's website, oh yeah, something.io, these new domain names, top level gTLDs are out there, .media, all these, and companies have firewalls or whatever their equipment is and it doesn't let it through. Because they're trying to protect the perimeter still, must be, I mean, what does that mean when companies aren't letting those URLs then, it is a firewall issue or is it more they're still perimeter based, they're not resolving it, they're afraid of malware? Somethings aren't resolving in? What does that mean? >> Well I think as often as not it's an operational problem. It could be just a misconfiguration on the part of the folks who are hosting the target website's DNS. It could be that. I don't know a lot of folks who-- >> So it's one of their policies or something, it's just kind of locking down. >> Could be that too. Or it could be, for example, that they have a proxy server and they're trying to limit access to the internet by category. Maybe it does categorization and filtering by-- >> Can you work on that? Can you write some code for that? Well thanks, great to see you, thanks for sharing this conversation here On The Ground at Centrify. >> You're welcome. >> And good luck with the CyberConnect Conference. >> Yeah, nice to see you too. >> Alright, I'm John Furrier with On The Ground here on theCUBE at Centfity's headquarters in Silicon Valley. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live, from Washington DC, it's the CUBE, covering .NEXT Conference. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to Nutanix NEXTConf everybody. #NEXTConf, this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with Stu Miniman. Stephen Hadley is here. He's the former US National Security Advisor, and currently with RHG, who is an advisor to Nutanix. He's an expert on national security and foreign policy, and public policy. Stephen, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. >> Nice to be here. >> So very important topic. One that you just can't talk about enough. So lets start. We're here at this sort of infrastructure show. We're up-leveling it now to this very important topic of security. There's so many things that are going on. We interviewed Pat Gelsinger on theCUBE five or six years ago and asked him, is security a do-over? He had a one word answer. Yes. So, where are we at? What's the state of cyber today? >> Well, let's talk in a couple respects. You know, one of the things that's been interesting to follow your industry, and I'm not a technical person. But, interesting following your industry, a lot of what was done, social media and all the rest, started to be fun. It was almost a toy. And what has happened, is you now have become, this industry and the services it provide are a international, global, and national resource. And is at the center of how we do business today. And it's been interesting to watch the industry deal with that challenge. It started out, what do you do about child pornography that gets onto the various sites and the like? Then it got to be, what do you do about terrorism? Now it's, what do you do about false news? And it's been interesting to see the industry, and I think very effectively, start to respond to what are the responsibilities they have to their users, in these various troublesome areas. And what are the solutions, technologically and process-wise. And I think the industry is taking the lead, and I would encourage them to do so, because I think the industry needs to define the solutions. If you wait to Washington to define the solutions, we'll get it wrong, as we usually do in Washington. >> Well, so let's come back and talk about that. But, I like to think of three categories of cyber threats. You've got the hackers. Like you said, maybe it's child porn or something else like that. You've got criminals, organized crime. And then you've got state-sponsored. Where do you feel the industry, that you've just sort of said, the industry really has to lead. Where do you think the industry should put its focus? Should they think about the attackers? Should they think more about the defense? Is that a right way to look at it? Those sort of three categories of threats? >> I think those are three categories. They are different kinds of threats. I think the industry is going to have to deal with all of them. I think the principal focus is going to be on defense. There has been a discussion in the literature, should companies have the ability to go on offense? And to respond to cyber attacks, by trying to reach out and hurt the attacker. That's a tricky question. And I guess, as a national security type, my instinct is, the industry needs to lead on defense. The government needs to think about offensive responses. I think particularly since one of the problems you've got in this business is the attribution problem. Someone marches into your country, you know who's doing it. If you get a cyber attack, it's not clear who the enemy is. And who the attack is coming from. And it makes the issue of response very difficult. Secondly, the problem of collateral damage. As we saw, beginning with Stuxnet, and in these latest attacks. You try to hit somebody over here offensively with cyber, and turns out your hitting users in 150 countries. So I think the industry's responsibility is to defend and to try to prevent their systems being used by various nefarious characters. The issue of how to respond to cyber attacks, I think is much more a state function. A law enforcement function, in terms of ordinary criminals and the like. A national security function, in terms of nation states. >> Well Robert Gates in theCUBE last April said that even governments have to be very careful about using cyber as an offensive weapon. You mention Stuxnet, and we saw what happened. But there are no standards with cyber war. With conventional warfare there's the Geneva Convention, there's standards that we can apply. With cyber it's the Wild West. So, what is industry's role in terms of creating those standards of cyber attacks? >> I think industry can inform it. I think it's going to be difficult for industry to take the lead. And I think one of the, my response would be, one of the problems is, cyber attacks, the attackers pay no penalty with cyber attacks. It's hard to find. It's hard to prove. And there's no responses. And, there's a whole question of what is the right response? So for example, some years ago, over eight 10 years ago, Russia pretty clearly took down the Estonian government, which was a real E government. Now NATO is, Estonia is in NATO. NATO, one of the pillars of NATO is an attack on one, is an attack on all. Was that an attack? Huge debate within NATO. Was it an attack, was not an attack? Nobody died. Traditional measure of where you've been attacked. On the other hand, a government was almost paralyzed. What's the right response? Do you have to respond only in cyberspace? Would you think of responding conventionally, through conventional military power to a cyber attack? None of that has been worked out. And, as a consequence, nobody pays any price for cyber attacks. My own view particularly with respect to state-sponsored cyber attacks, is until the country pays a disproportionate attack in cyberspace, for a cyber attack, you won't get them to stop. But as you just talked about rightly, it's very hard to respond in cyberspace, because of the unintended consequences and the cyber collateral damage, if you will. My hope, the way out of this, is, as you've seen in these last attacks over the last week or so, which were targeted, I think the most recent one was targeted on Ukraine, and ended up affecting 150 countries. I would hope that some of these at some point are going to bring the international community to it's senses. And people are going to basically say look, we're all vulnerable. We're all at risk. The United States is more dependent probably than other countries, but China isn't too far behind. And for the United States and China to start leading an international conversation about developing the rules of the road. I think that would be good. I think though there needs to be a panel from industry, that supports that effort. Or my worry is the governments will get it wrong, and will impair the growth of the industry, which is bringing so much benefit to the global community. >> Really interesting point. A couple of years ago, we interviewed the President of ICANN. The organization that >> Stephen: Yeah, I know him. >> oversees the entire internet >> Stephen: Good guy. >> Stu: Fadi, and he was really concerned that companies like China, and Germany were going to say, we're going to have our own internet. We're just going to wall things off. Kind of goes against what you're saying, is we need to work together. We see, dissonance between private corporations, and governments now. How do we get globally working on technology, working together? Rather than fragmenting more. >> And you make a very good point. It's working together on the basis of our principals. Look, our view is that a global internet, free access for everyone is a powerful political statement, and can be empowering of individuals. So it is a small d, democratic institution. And it is an enormous economic power. It would be a tragedy if individual countries start to Balkanize the internet. And start to make them national systems. Because you know the countries that will do it, are countries that are authoritarian, and will convert a device that actually empowers individuals to be a device by which the state controls individuals. Secondly, it will risk cutting them off from the global community. Which will have economic consequences, much less social consequences. So, I think it is important for us to try to take the lead and start that conversation, and to do it while we're still talking about a global internet, and really haven't lost that. So this conversation needs to start sooner rather than later. >> You're the Chairman of the United States Institute of Peace. I have to believe that there is some parallels between the work you're doing there, and what we were just discussing. Trying to get cooperation across communities. >> There is, in this sense. One of the things that USIP has found is, and when I was in government I always used to think about what governments can do to resolve conflicts, end wars and preserve peace. And that's sort of top-down government policy. What US Institute of Peace is doing, is bottom-up. Facilitating groups, civil society, and peace-builders and peace makers, in war-torn communities to begin to resolve the ethnic conflicts, the tribal conflicts, the religious conflicts that are really the kindling, and the fuel for conflict. And through an affiliated organization of the USIP called Peace Tech Lab, technology people are coming together with civil society people and saying, what are the tools you need that we can put on an app, and use on an internet platform that will allow you to do your bottom-up peace building work? And it's very powerful. So for example, election violence. Always a big problem. There are civil society groups using technology that we're able to monitor through social media the first signs of electoral violence, and bombard them with text messages and the like, to try to bring down the temperature. So, what we're seeing at USIP is, there is a bottom-up component of peace building that can be technologically enabled, to allow people to try to maintain peace in their communities. It is the new frontier in some sense, for the work of the US Institute of Peace. >> So, with Stuxnet we saw that malware had the potential to kill people. Maybe in and of itself, that malware didn't kill people, although people died in that whole dynamic, with two nuclear engineers in Iran. My question is, and Stuxnet is 15 year old technology. >> Yeah, I don't think it's Stuxnet was responsible for any of technicians. >> Dave: No, right, so let's clarify that. >> There was a separate. >> And it was associated with that whole initiative, and. >> There was an effort to set back the Iran nuclear program. >> Yes, right, but it wasn't the malware itself. But the malware was demonstrated to do damage, and it could theoretically, and probably in practice, kill people. And it's, as I say, 15 year old technology, and just scratching the surface. So, god knows where we are today. You may know, I don't. But you've sort of put forth this notion that countries, states need to come together, and sort of address this problem. My question is that, I'm inferring that the US has a lead. And as the leader, with the best weapon, what's the motivation for the United States and other countries, who are the "haves", to work with the "have-nots", and actually create these standards? Is it because we have more to lose? I wonder if you could comment. >> I think it's vulnerability. I mean look, we're more dependent on the internet. We're more dependent on cyber systems. Look, to your point, if you bring down and get into the control systems that allow you to shut off the water filtration plants, and bring down the electric grid, a lot of people are going to die. They're going to start in hospitals, and it's going to get worse. So, what is the task? The first task is, and we've known about this problem, of the vulnerability for critical interest structure since the 1990s, that the first studies were written. Government has been slow. Quite frankly, industry has been slow. And it's, I think that train is finally moving. Some sectors are farther ahead. The financial sector is much better and further along at hardening their infrastructure against cyber penetration. But we still are very vulnerable through control systems, in our water system, electric grid, all the rest. And of course, the internet of things, has only multiplied the portals through which people can get into these systems. So there's a huge task of defense. And hardening that needs to go on. And that's a responsibility of industry, and government working together. It can only be done if industry and government work together. That's the process we need within the country. Secondly then, can the US lead in a process to try to develop rules of the road that provide another layer of protection? But it's got to start with hardening our infrastructure here at home. >> I got to ask you about fake news. Fake news in Russia. Is Russia an adversary? Should they be perceived, from a diplomacy standpoint, should we be antagonistic? Or should we try to be more friendly? As it relates to what's been going on with fake news. I wonder if you could tie those together and give us your thoughts. >> Well look, one of the things that's different about Russia today, is what we've seen in the election. This effort through hacking, through disclosing emails, through probing our electoral infrastructure, through a variety of things the Russians are doing. They intervened in our election process, in a bigger way than we've ever seen before, and they're doing the same thing in Europe. That is a new problem. We need to get to the bottom of it, to know what happened. People do it from the standpoint of retaliating against Russia. I think the bigger problem is we need to harden our electoral infrastructure. Our electoral infrastructure turns out to be critical infrastructure that we have to harden, just like our electric grid, and our water supply systems. And you know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If we don't harden our electoral infrastructure so this cannot happen again, next time it happens, it's our fault. >> So kind of a cyber Star Wars. Is it, we don't know if it's technically feasible. That's not your area of expertise, that's industry's problem to figure out. >> Stephen: Yes sir. >> Stephen, you are a fantastic guest. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate your insights. >> Stephen: Delighted to be here, thanks very much. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest, right after this short break. This is theCUBE, we're live from Nutanix .NEXT, NEXTConf Be right back.

(upbeat techno music) >> Host: Live, from Boston Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome to day two of the Red Hat Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We are welcoming Jim Whitehurst, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Thanks so much for taking the time to sit down with us. >> Thanks, it's great to be here. >> So, I want to talk about the theme of this year's conference, which is celebrating the impact of the individual. In your keynote you talked about the goal of leadership today is to create a context for the individual to try, to modify, to fail, to just keep going. Sounds great. How do you do that? >> Well that's why I say, leadership is about creating a context for that to happen. So you have to create a safe environment for people to try and fail. And you know, this is a tough one, because somebody fails 20 times, you know, maybe it's time him to find a new career. >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> But, you have to create the opportunity for people to fail in a safe way and actually then learn from that. And one of the things I talk a lot about, especially CEOs and CIOs is, you got to create that context. The world that we used to live in was all about taking variance out, you know, Lean Six Sigma process. Innovation's all about injecting variance in, and there's no way to inject variance in without making errors. So how do you, I want to say reward making errors, but you certainly want to reward risk taking and recognize, by definition, some risks aren't going to play out. And that's all about culture. Yeah, it's about process and reward systems, but it's mainly about culture. >> So reward, risk taking, no blaming, what are some other defining elements of this culture in which individuals can feel free to take risks? >> Well, I think a big part of it is you have to celebrate the people who try things And you celebrate taking the risk. You don't necessarily celebrate the successes, right? It's like, you know, in school, you miss something, that's bad, you get something right, that's good. Well we have a tendency to say, let's celebrate the successes, versus actually celebrating the risk taking. And so, there are some processes and systems you have to put in place. You have to have systems in place to make sure no one can risk 100 million dollars. If every Red Hatter could risk 100 million dollars, we'd be in trouble. But you have to figure out how you give enough latitude, enough free time. And, I was just yesterday talking to some Red Hatters who had moved over from IBM. They said, "It's great, we can try new things." Now, try new things within a context of a certain amount of budget or a certain amount of time. So there are processes and systems you have to put in place, but ultimately it's culture more than anything else. It trumps anything else. >> Jim, in your keynote, you said, planning is dead, and that, you know, we're lousy predictors, things are changing so fast. Your role though, you're CEO of a public company that has 60 quarters of consecutive revenue growth. So, it seems you guys are doing pretty well at getting involved in some of the waves that are happening, understanding how to keep growing at a steady pace. Maybe you can reconcile that a little bit for us, as to how you're doing that. >> Yeah, so, one of the reasons that I think that we've been able to navigate a whole set of fairly significant transitions in technology is that we don't select technology, we select communities. And I think that's a really important subtlety. So, we didn't come in and say, "Oh, we like OpenStack more than we like CloudStack of Eucalyptus or the other opensource IaaS that were out five years ago. We looked and observed that OpenStack had built the biggest user base. You know the reason we're significantly involved in Kubernetes today, versus Diego, or Swarm, or the other orchestrators for containers out there, is we observed it was building the biggest community. And, we don't just glom on, we actually kind of get in and contribute ourselves. But we look more to say what are the best communities and let's get involved in that. I don't know what the Kubernetes roadmap is for the next five years, but I'm confident that it has the best community that will drive the right direction for-- >> It's probably a little over-simplified to say you looked for the VHS ecosystem versus the Betamax best technology. >> Rachael: (laughs) >> No, exactly. Exactly, but that's what we think we're good at is observing when a community is the best community. And I say that, it's not just a matter of observation. Whether it's OpenStack or Kubernetes, we get in a help think about governance, right? So, one of the things I think really helped OpenStack is we saw it had the best user community, but we help put together the governance structure, which truly made it neutral, made it open. And so, we try to actually help in doing that, but it really is about identifying communities rather than technologies. >> Is it ever possible that you could identify the right community that might have certain elements, but it's got elements that wouldn't quite work for the opensource way, can you change that community? Is it possible to go in and push a new culture into that community? >> We think we're actually pretty good at that. Now, I think there's a mix of not every community has to be the same. We often talk about, there is no opensource community. There are are literally two million open source communities. And Linux has a culture, many of our projects in JBoss. So Drools is different than Fuse that's different than others. And so, it's okay that the cultures can be different. The key is they all have to have a common element about being open, and committing to being open, and truly being a meritocracy, cause if they best ideas don't win, that's when communities fall apart. And that's actually one of the biggest places where they fall apart. So, I do think we can influence open, and I think just by our contributions we probably influence the cultures of some of those communities. But we don't try to say is there's a Red Hat way to do community. There are a lot of different ways. >> Jim, we look at the cloud space, open is one of these terms that doesn't necessarily mesh with your definition with what the cloud guys do. You guys, of course, supported Red Hat Linux in every single cloud environment that I can think of. For many years you have a expanded partnership with AWS. But, I was debating with Sam Ramji yesterday, from Google, about like, there is no open cloud. There are clouds that use opensource, opensource can live here, but all the big public clouds are built on their platforms and openness is a challenge there. What's your thought as to how you fit there? And then we'll want to get into some of the discussion of the AWS announcement. >> Yeah, sure. So, in defense of the public clouds, it's impossible to offer a physical offering that has hardware in a software stack without it having some of your technologies that don't make it totally open, right? Or transferable. >> Is this why we never saw a Red Hat Open Cloud? >> Well, it's just that, yeah, it doesn't quite make sense in our context for that reason as well. So the role we try to play is, we do try to play the abstracter role, and we do that at multiple levels. So, Red Hat Enterprise Linux runs across a physical data center, virtual data center, and the major clouds. And that's an abstraction point that we think adds value. Because all the way back to 15 years ago, Red Hat Enterprise Linux meant that you could run the same application on a Dell server or an IBM, or an HP Blade, right? And so, we're working to apply that at the cloud level, certainly at the operating system level, but, because of all the services and the growth containers, we needed to do it at another level, and that's what we're doing with OpenShift. So, OpenShift allows you to run on physical, or on virtual in your own data center, on the major public clouds, and take advantages of the services underneath, but do it in a little bit more of an abstracted way. >> All right. So, we had Optum on yesterday, who was also part of the keynote. He's using OpenShift. He's using AWS. He was very excited about the opportunity of OpenShift being able to extend those Amazon services. You and Andy Jassy doing a video this morning. Give us a little bit of the inside look. You know, how long did it take to put this together? My understanding, it's not shipping today, but coming a little bit later this year. Give us a little bit behind what happened. >> Yeah, so. You know, this really started off with a breakfast Andy and I had in January, where we said, look, our teams are working really well together, and we've been partners since 2008, but kind of from the bottom up, I think we were taking very much an incremental approach of what we could do together, what customers we could work with. And, I think it's a little bit in the context of they've been out some other kind of big deals with some other vendors, and so, why don't we think about, what's a true net new offering. So let's now just talk about, oh, running it on Amazon's lower cost. I mean, clearly there's a cost thing there, but, what can we do that's like, wow, actually changes the life of some of the people who are using our technologies. And so what we decided is, well, wouldn't it be amazing, literally at breakfast we were talking about it, if OpenShift, which is used by enterprises all around the world, could actually leverage the thousands of services that AWS is putting out, right? So, right now, if you want to use all of these services, you have to be on AWS, which is great, but there are a lot of customers for whatever reasons, for regulatory reasons, or just by choice or economics, who decided to run on-premise or elsewhere. And so, by making those thousands of services available, it's a win-win all around. For Amazon, it's a ability to expose some really amazing innovation to many, many thousands, hundreds of thousands of developers, and for us it's a way to expose all this innovation to our developers, without kind of forcing someone necessarily to go all-in on cloud. Now, I'll say that we were literally, you know, Sunday night still getting the final contract done. >> Rebecca: (laughing) >> But I would say, when you have a really clear, differentiated source of value for customers, the deal came together, I think, relatively quickly. >> Yeah, et cetera. One of the things we've been trying to reconcile a little bit is, when you talk to customers about where their applications live, that hybrid or multi-cloud world, versus the offerings that are out there, it was a mismatch, because, you know, they were like, oh, I'm using VMware in one place, and I'm using Amazon somewhere else. I've got my SaaS in a different place. We're starting to see Amazon mature their discussion of hybrid through partnerships of yours. OpenShift looks like something that can really help enable customers to kind of get their arms around those environments in many locations. >> Well, I think so. One of the things, if you really go and talk to developers, developers really don't care that much about infrastructure software, and they shouldn't care. And, it's interesting. I think developers right now are really enamored by containers, because containers somewhat makes their life easy. But, I was talking to some of the folks in Red Hat that deal a lot with developers, and they say, ultimately developers shouldn't want to care and don't want to care about even containers. They just want to write code, and they want code to work, right? And one of the cool things about OpenShift is that's kind of what you're doing, is you're saying write code. Yeah, use any of the services you want from anywhere you want to use it. They're all there. They're all available. You don't have to worry about, I want this service, so I have to run this on Amazon, or, hey, I got my database on-premise, so I got to run here. Let's just make it easy. And I think that's one of the cool things about this announcement that's cool for developers, but it's also unique that it's something that only we could bring together. >> Yeah, serverless is something that's been gaining a lot of buzz to kind of say, right, it's underneath there. There's probably going to be containers, but my people writing applications don't want to worry about that. Speak to, it's the application affinity and that tie to kind of modernization of applications that seems to be one of the biggest challenges we've been facing for the last couple of years. Why are companies coming to Red Hat, working across your solution set to help them with that challenge of their older applications, but also kind of building the new businesses. >> Well I think for a couple reasons. So first off, if we really think about what Red Hat is, we call ourselves a software company, but we give away all our IP, so that's a stretch, right? >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> You know, when we think about our overall mission is, we think, there's enterprise customers here with a set of challenges, and there's all this phenomenal innovation happening in opensource communities. How do we build a bridge between those. So certainly that's product. So we create opensource, well, products out of opensource projects. It's about architecture, and then it's about process. And we talked about open innovation labs. But in part of thinking about that's what we do, we obviously start off say, well, what are enterprise problems, and what are technologies that help solve those problems? So, one of the things that we've driven so hard into our container platform is the ability to run stateful applications, right? So it's great to talk about scale-out and cloud native, and we certainly do that, but go talk to any CIO and 99.9% of their application portfolio is stateful. And so, we think about that and we drive those needs. And the reason we're the second largest contributor of Kubernetes isn't just because we're nice people. It's because we're trying to drive enterprise needs into these projects. And so, I do think that technologies that would ultimately emerge, and the products we're able to put out, help enterprises consume opensource in a way that is actually value adding. >> I wanted to ask you about the examples that you used in the keynote today. The three that you highlighted were governance. >> Jim: Yeah. >> And I think that that was really interesting because you're showing how opensource is bringing new innovations and ideas into government and agencies not necessarily known for innovation. Where do you see the future of technology in government coming together? >> Well, one of the reasons I wanted to use government examples is that I actually wanted to highlight, well, what's the role of government when you start thinking about innovation. So, certainly, we could've brought up a lot of examples. You know, yesterday the Optum folks that are big users of our platform, and they've kind of created a context for innovation among their developers. But the reason I wanted to highlight governments, and really try to do it from regions around the world, was to say there is a role for government when you start thinking about what is the new system underneath the economy. So, in the 1940s and 50s in the US the interstate highway system was an important piece of infrastructure. We've always thought about roads and bridges and airports as important for creating the underpinnings for an economy, and that's really, really important in a world of physical goods. And it's not that we don't have physical goods now, but more and more we still have to start thinking about information assets. And look, I've gone and seen the FCC and advocated for net neutrality and all that stuff. And so, certainly broadband as a fundamental infrastructure's important, but I think that government plays a more important role. Whether that's education, and we could spend two hours on education, but even kind of creating these contexts where you make data available. That's what I loved about the British-Columbia example. But broadly it's like, how do you create a context for more citizen participation. I think it's just as important in the 21st Century as roads and bridges were in the 20th Century. >> Jim, you mentioned net neutrality. I'm curious your take on just kind of the global discussion that's going on. A lot of your customers here are international, you've got open communities. The question about net neutrality, trade. It feels like many people, we interviews the president of ICANN a few years ago, and was worried about, you know, are we going to have seven internets, not one internet, because there are certain Asian, and even like Germany, worried about cutting things off. How does that impact your thinking? Do you guys get involved in some of those governmental discussions? >> Well we do. A matter of fact, we actually do have, I'd say a small government affairs team that advocates around these issues. Because we see it too, even with OpenShift, where you start saying, well, different privacy laws in Europe versus the US, but what if someone's running OpenShift in Europe, but it's actually instantiated in the US, and who can get access to what data. Those are really, really important issues. And it is a little bit like, you know, we ought to pick the same railroad gauge, right? To some extent, we need to have a set of consistent policies, not necessarily in every area, but enough that you can actually have the free flow of information, without worrying about, oh my god, I'm exposing myself to felony privacy issues because I'm hosting this application on a cloud that happens to be in the US. So there's some real issues that we have to work through. And they're so bleeding edge and so complex, I'm not sure that we're quite ready to get those done. But these are going to be critical, critical to the economy of the 21st Century. >> The other thing, I can't let you go without asking you about just the opensource business models themself. I've been listening to podcasts. We had a couple of companies go IPO recently. >> Jim: Yeah. >> They're better involved, and they're like, oh wait, I'm an enterprise company, I'm a software company. VC, you shouldn't invest in opensource because they can't monetize what they're doing. What's your take on the investment and business prospect for the other companies that are not Red Hat? >> Well, look, I'm thrilled to see Cloudera going public. Obviously Hortonworks public. MuleSoft recently. And I know some of those are hybrid models, they have an open core, and they have some other proprietary around it. But look, it's still dollars that are getting invested in opensource software I think we've clearly proven a model that you can have 100% opensource and build a successful business. For a whole set of technologies, it's clearly a better innovation model. The thing that I continue to push people is, don't think about it as selling IP. And this is, I've actually had conversations with several university presidents about this same issue. University education is more about the content. Don't be scared of MOOCs, right? And most people kind of get that, a university education, yeah, content's a part of it. But there are 50 other things that make up an education. So that's when I always come back to opensource companies and say, assume the content's free, because it's going to be better if it's totally free. And now think about, how do you build a model around the fact that content's free. And, I think education's a great one. Your industry in media is certainly one that needs to continue to innovate around business models as well. So, rather than saying, let's take a development model that's superior in a number of regards for a set of technologies, especially around infrastructure, and say, let's hamper it, and make it work in the old school business model. Let's continue to work to innovate business models that allow the innovation to happen, because it's going to happen, right? You do have to recognize that so much of what you're seeing in opensource is really a byproduct of what Google and Facebook and others are doing. And that's going to continue, so the best innovation's going to come there. You got to figure out business models that work for it. >> You got to figure them out Thank you so much, Jim. Jim Whitehurst, we appreciate your time. >> It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will return with more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat techno music)