hello I'm John Furrier with thecube and welcome to this special presentation of the cube and Horizon 3.ai they're announcing a global partner first approach expanding their successful pen testing product Net Zero you're going to hear from leading experts in their staff their CEO positioning themselves for a successful Channel distribution expansion internationally in Europe Middle East Africa and Asia Pacific in this Cube special presentation you'll hear about the expansion the expanse partner program giving Partners a unique opportunity to offer Net Zero to their customers Innovation and Pen testing is going International with Horizon 3.ai enjoy the program [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're here with Jennifer Lee head of Channel sales at Horizon 3.ai Jennifer welcome to the cube thanks for coming on great well thank you for having me so big news around Horizon 3.aa driving Channel first commitment you guys are expanding the channel partner program to include all kinds of new rewards incentives training programs help educate you know Partners really drive more recurring Revenue certainly cloud and Cloud scale has done that you got a great product that fits into that kind of Channel model great Services you can wrap around it good stuff so let's get into it what are you guys doing what are what are you guys doing with this news why is this so important yeah for sure so um yeah we like you said we recently expanded our Channel partner program um the driving force behind it was really just um to align our like you said our Channel first commitment um and creating awareness around the importance of our partner ecosystems um so that's it's really how we go to market is is through the channel and a great International Focus I've talked with the CEO so you know about the solution and he broke down all the action on why it's important on the product side but why now on the go to market change what's the what's the why behind this big this news on the channel yeah for sure so um we are doing this now really to align our business strategy which is built on the concept of enabling our partners to create a high value high margin business on top of our platform and so um we offer a solution called node zero it provides autonomous pen testing as a service and it allows organizations to continuously verify their security posture um so we our company vision we have this tagline that states that our pen testing enables organizations to see themselves Through The Eyes of an attacker and um we use the like the attacker's perspective to identify exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities so we created this partner program from a perspective of the partner so the partner's perspective and we've built It Through The Eyes of our partner right so we're prioritizing really what the partner is looking for and uh will ensure like Mutual success for us yeah the partners always want to get in front of the customers and bring new stuff to them pen tests have traditionally been really expensive uh and so bringing it down in one to a service level that's one affordable and has flexibility to it allows a lot of capability so I imagine people getting excited by it so I have to ask you about the program What specifically are you guys doing can you share any details around what it means for the partners what they get what's in it for them can you just break down some of the mechanics and mechanisms or or details yeah yep um you know we're really looking to create business alignment um and like I said establish Mutual success with our partners so we've got two um two key elements that we were really focused on um that we bring to the partners so the opportunity the profit margin expansion is one of them and um a way for our partners to really differentiate themselves and stay relevant in the market so um we've restructured our discount model really um you know highlighting profitability and maximizing profitability and uh this includes our deal registration we've we've created deal registration program we've increased discount for partners who take part in our partner certification uh trainings and we've we have some other partner incentives uh that we we've created that that's going to help out there we've we put this all so we've recently Gone live with our partner portal um it's a Consolidated experience for our partners where they can access our our sales tools and we really view our partners as an extension of our sales and Technical teams and so we've extended all of our our training material that we use internally we've made it available to our partners through our partner portal um we've um I'm trying I'm thinking now back what else is in that partner portal here we've got our partner certification information so all the content that's delivered during that training can be found in the portal we've got deal registration uh um co-branded marketing materials pipeline management and so um this this portal gives our partners a One-Stop place to to go to find all that information um and then just really quickly on the second part of that that I mentioned is our technology really is um really disruptive to the market so you know like you said autonomous pen testing it's um it's still it's well it's still still relatively new topic uh for security practitioners and um it's proven to be really disruptive so um that on top of um just well recently we found an article that um that mentioned by markets and markets that reports that the global pen testing markets really expanding and so it's expected to grow to like 2.7 billion um by 2027. so the Market's there right the Market's expanding it's growing and so for our partners it's just really allows them to grow their revenue um across their customer base expand their customer base and offering this High profit margin while you know getting in early to Market on this just disruptive technology big Market a lot of opportunities to make some money people love to put more margin on on those deals especially when you can bring a great solution that everyone knows is hard to do so I think that's going to provide a lot of value is there is there a type of partner that you guys see emerging or you aligning with you mentioned the alignment with the partners I can see how that the training and the incentives are all there sounds like it's all going well is there a type of partner that's resonating the most or is there categories of partners that can take advantage of this yeah absolutely so we work with all different kinds of Partners we work with our traditional resale Partners um we've worked we're working with systems integrators we have a really strong MSP mssp program um we've got Consulting partners and the Consulting Partners especially with the ones that offer pen test services so we they use us as a as we act as a force multiplier just really offering them profit margin expansion um opportunity there we've got some technology partner partners that we really work with for co-cell opportunities and then we've got our Cloud Partners um you'd mentioned that earlier and so we are in AWS Marketplace so our ccpo partners we're part of the ISP accelerate program um so we we're doing a lot there with our Cloud partners and um of course we uh we go to market with uh distribution Partners as well gotta love the opportunity for more margin expansion every kind of partner wants to put more gross profit on their deals is there a certification involved I have to ask is there like do you get do people get certified or is it just you get trained is it self-paced training is it in person how are you guys doing the whole training certification thing because is that is that a requirement yeah absolutely so we do offer a certification program and um it's been very popular this includes a a seller's portion and an operator portion and and so um this is at no cost to our partners and um we operate both virtually it's it's law it's virtually but live it's not self-paced and we also have in person um you know sessions as well and we also can customize these to any partners that have a large group of people and we can just we can do one in person or virtual just specifically for that partner well any kind of incentive opportunities and marketing opportunities everyone loves to get the uh get the deals just kind of rolling in leads from what we can see if our early reporting this looks like a hot product price wise service level wise what incentive do you guys thinking about and and Joint marketing you mentioned co-sell earlier in pipeline so I was kind of kind of honing in on that piece sure and yes and then to follow along with our partner certification program we do incentivize our partners there if they have a certain number certified their discount increases so that's part of it we have our deal registration program that increases discount as well um and then we do have some um some partner incentives that are wrapped around meeting setting and um moving moving opportunities along to uh proof of value gotta love the education driving value I have to ask you so you've been around the industry you've seen the channel relationships out there you're seeing companies old school new school you know uh Horizon 3.ai is kind of like that new school very cloud specific a lot of Leverage with we mentioned AWS and all the clouds um why is the company so hot right now why did you join them and what's why are people attracted to this company what's the what's the attraction what's the vibe what do you what do you see and what what do you use what did you see in in this company well this is just you know like I said it's very disruptive um it's really in high demand right now and um and and just because because it's new to Market and uh a newer technology so we are we can collaborate with a manual pen tester um we can you know we can allow our customers to run their pen test um with with no specialty teams and um and and then so we and like you know like I said we can allow our partners can actually build businesses profitable businesses so we can they can use our product to increase their services revenue and um and build their business model you know around around our services what's interesting about the pen test thing is that it's very expensive and time consuming the people who do them are very talented people that could be working on really bigger things in the in absolutely customers so bringing this into the channel allows them if you look at the price Delta between a pen test and then what you guys are offering I mean that's a huge margin Gap between street price of say today's pen test and what you guys offer when you show people that they follow do they say too good to be true I mean what are some of the things that people say when you kind of show them that are they like scratch their head like come on what's the what's the catch here right so the cost savings is a huge is huge for us um and then also you know like I said working as a force multiplier with a pen testing company that offers the services and so they can they can do their their annual manual pen tests that may be required around compliance regulations and then we can we can act as the continuous verification of their security um um you know that that they can run um weekly and so it's just um you know it's just an addition to to what they're offering already and an expansion so Jennifer thanks for coming on thecube really appreciate you uh coming on sharing the insights on the channel uh what's next what can we expect from the channel group what are you thinking what's going on right so we're really looking to expand our our Channel um footprint and um very strategically uh we've got um we've got some big plans um for for Horizon 3.ai awesome well thanks for coming on really appreciate it you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to the Cube's special presentation with Horizon 3.ai with Raina Richter vice president of emea Europe Middle East and Africa and Asia Pacific APAC for Horizon 3 today welcome to this special Cube presentation thanks for joining us thank you for the invitation so Horizon 3 a guy driving Global expansion big international news with a partner first approach you guys are expanding internationally let's get into it you guys are driving this new expanse partner program to new heights tell us about it what are you seeing in the momentum why the expansion what's all the news about well I would say uh yeah in in international we have I would say a similar similar situation like in the US um there is a global shortage of well-educated penetration testers on the one hand side on the other side um we have a raising demand of uh network and infrastructure security and with our approach of an uh autonomous penetration testing I I believe we are totally on top of the game um especially as we have also now uh starting with an international instance that means for example if a customer in Europe is using uh our service node zero he will be connected to a node zero instance which is located inside the European Union and therefore he has doesn't have to worry about the conflict between the European the gdpr regulations versus the US Cloud act and I would say there we have a total good package for our partners that they can provide differentiators to their customers you know we've had great conversations here on thecube with the CEO and the founder of the company around the leverage of the cloud and how successful that's been for the company and honestly I can just Connect the Dots here but I'd like you to weigh in more on how that translates into the go to market here because you got great Cloud scale with with the security product you guys are having success with great leverage there I've seen a lot of success there what's the momentum on the channel partner program internationally why is it so important to you is it just the regional segmentation is it the economics why the momentum well there are it's there are multiple issues first of all there is a raising demand in penetration testing um and don't forget that uh in international we have a much higher level in number a number or percentage in SMB and mid-market customers so these customers typically most of them even didn't have a pen test done once a year so for them pen testing was just too expensive now with our offering together with our partners we can provide different uh ways how customers could get an autonomous pen testing done more than once a year with even lower costs than they had with with a traditional manual paint test so and that is because we have our uh Consulting plus package which is for typically pain testers they can go out and can do a much faster much quicker and their pain test at many customers once in after each other so they can do more pain tests on a lower more attractive price on the other side there are others what even the same ones who are providing um node zero as an mssp service so they can go after s p customers saying okay well you only have a couple of hundred uh IP addresses no worries we have the perfect package for you and then you have let's say the mid Market let's say the thousands and more employees then they might even have an annual subscription very traditional but for all of them it's all the same the customer or the service provider doesn't need a piece of Hardware they only need to install a small piece of a Docker container and that's it and that makes it so so smooth to go in and say okay Mr customer we just put in this this virtual attacker into your network and that's it and and all the rest is done and within within three clicks they are they can act like a pen tester with 20 years of experience and that's going to be very Channel friendly and partner friendly I can almost imagine so I have to ask you and thank you for calling the break calling out that breakdown and and segmentation that was good that was very helpful for me to understand but I want to follow up if you don't mind um what type of partners are you seeing the most traction with and why well I would say at the beginning typically you have the the innovators the early adapters typically Boutique size of Partners they start because they they are always looking for Innovation and those are the ones you they start in the beginning so we have a wide range of Partners having mostly even um managed by the owner of the company so uh they immediately understand okay there is the value and they can change their offering they're changing their offering in terms of penetration testing because they can do more pen tests and they can then add other ones or we have those ones who offer 10 tests services but they did not have their own pen testers so they had to go out on the open market and Source paint testing experts um to get the pen test at a particular customer done and now with node zero they're totally independent they can't go out and say okay Mr customer here's the here's the service that's it we turn it on and within an hour you're up and running totally yeah and those pen tests are usually expensive and hard to do now it's right in line with the sales delivery pretty interesting for a partner absolutely but on the other hand side we are not killing the pain testers business we do something we're providing with no tiers I would call something like the foundation work the foundational work of having an an ongoing penetration testing of the infrastructure the operating system and the pen testers by themselves they can concentrate in the future on things like application pen testing for example so those Services which we we're not touching so we're not killing the paint tester Market we're just taking away the ongoing um let's say foundation work call it that way yeah yeah that was one of my questions I was going to ask is there's a lot of interest in this autonomous pen testing one because it's expensive to do because those skills are required are in need and they're expensive so you kind of cover the entry level and the blockers that are in there I've seen people say to me this pen test becomes a blocker for getting things done so there's been a lot of interest in the autonomous pen testing and for organizations to have that posture and it's an overseas issue too because now you have that that ongoing thing so can you explain that particular benefit for an organization to have that continuously verifying an organization's posture yep certainly so I would say um typically you are you you have to do your patches you have to bring in new versions of operating systems of different Services of uh um operating systems of some components and and they are always bringing new vulnerabilities the difference here is that with node zero we are telling the customer or the partner package we're telling them which are the executable vulnerabilities because previously they might have had um a vulnerability scanner so this vulnerability scanner brought up hundreds or even thousands of cves but didn't say anything about which of them are vulnerable really executable and then you need an expert digging in one cve after the other finding out is it is it really executable yes or no and that is where you need highly paid experts which we have a shortage so with notes here now we can say okay we tell you exactly which ones are the ones you should work on because those are the ones which are executable we rank them accordingly to the risk level how easily they can be used and by a sudden and then the good thing is convert it or indifference to the traditional penetration test they don't have to wait for a year for the next pain test to find out if the fixing was effective they weren't just the next scan and say Yes closed vulnerability is gone the time is really valuable and if you're doing any devops Cloud native you're always pushing new things so pen test ongoing pen testing is actually a benefit just in general as a kind of hygiene so really really interesting solution really bring that global scale is going to be a new new coverage area for us for sure I have to ask you if you don't mind answering what particular region are you focused on or plan to Target for this next phase of growth well at this moment we are concentrating on the countries inside the European Union Plus the United Kingdom um but we are and they are of course logically I'm based into Frankfurt area that means we cover more or less the countries just around so it's like the total dark region Germany Switzerland Austria plus the Netherlands but we also already have Partners in the nordics like in Finland or in Sweden um so it's it's it it's rapidly we have Partners already in the UK and it's rapidly growing so I'm for example we are now starting with some activities in Singapore um um and also in the in the Middle East area um very important we uh depending on let's say the the way how to do business currently we try to concentrate on those countries where we can have um let's say um at least English as an accepted business language great is there any particular region you're having the most success with right now is it sounds like European Union's um kind of first wave what's them yes that's the first definitely that's the first wave and now we're also getting the uh the European instance up and running it's clearly our commitment also to the market saying okay we know there are certain dedicated uh requirements and we take care of this and and we're just launching it we're building up this one uh the instance um in the AWS uh service center here in Frankfurt also with some dedicated Hardware internet in a data center in Frankfurt where we have with the date six by the way uh the highest internet interconnection bandwidth on the planet so we have very short latency to wherever you are on on the globe that's a great that's a great call outfit benefit too I was going to ask that what are some of the benefits your partners are seeing in emea and Asia Pacific well I would say um the the benefits is for them it's clearly they can they can uh talk with customers and can offer customers penetration testing which they before and even didn't think about because it penetrates penetration testing in a traditional way was simply too expensive for them too complex the preparation time was too long um they didn't have even have the capacity uh to um to support a pain an external pain tester now with this service you can go in and say even if they Mr customer we can do a test with you in a couple of minutes within we have installed the docker container within 10 minutes we have the pen test started that's it and then we just wait and and I would say that is we'll we are we are seeing so many aha moments then now because on the partner side when they see node zero the first time working it's like this wow that is great and then they work out to customers and and show it to their typically at the beginning mostly the friendly customers like wow that's great I need that and and I would say um the feedback from the partners is that is a service where I do not have to evangelize the customer everybody understands penetration testing I don't have to say describe what it is they understand the customer understanding immediately yes penetration testing good about that I know I should do it but uh too complex too expensive now with the name is for example as an mssp service provided from one of our partners but it's getting easy yeah it's great and it's great great benefit there I mean I gotta say I'm a huge fan of what you guys are doing I like this continuous automation that's a major benefit to anyone doing devops or any kind of modern application development this is just a godsend for them this is really good and like you said the pen testers that are doing it they were kind of coming down from their expertise to kind of do things that should have been automated they get to focus on the bigger ticket items that's a really big point so we free them we free the pain testers for the higher level elements of the penetration testing segment and that is typically the application testing which is currently far away from being automated yeah and that's where the most critical workloads are and I think this is the nice balance congratulations on the international expansion of the program and thanks for coming on this special presentation really I really appreciate it thank you you're welcome okay this is thecube special presentation you know check out pen test automation International expansion Horizon 3 dot AI uh really Innovative solution in our next segment Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts will discuss the power of Horizon 3.ai and Splunk in action you're watching the cube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage foreign [Music] [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're with Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts and federal at Horizon 3.ai a great Innovative company Chris great to see you thanks for coming on thecube yeah like I said uh you know great to meet you John long time listener first time caller so excited to be here with you guys yeah we were talking before camera you had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com and boy man you know talk about being in the right place at the right time now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant um and continuing to have that data driving Security in that interplay and your CEO former CTO of his plug as well at Horizon who's been on before really Innovative product you guys have but you know yeah don't wait for a breach to find out if you're logging the right data this is the topic of this thread Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement uh with you guys tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and Horizon AI as you guys expand uh node zero out internationally yeah well so across so you know my role uh within Splunk it was uh working with our most strategic accounts and so I looked back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with with our small customers you know it was um it was still very siled back then like I was selling to an I.T team that was either using this for it operations um we generally would always even say yeah although we do security we weren't really designed for it we're a log management tool and we I'm sure you remember back then John we were like sort of stepping into the security space and and the public sector domain that I was in you know security was 70 of what we did when I look back to sort of uh the transformation that I was witnessing in that digital transformation um you know when I look at like 2019 to today you look at how uh the IT team and the security teams are being have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silent away would not commute communicate one you know the security guys would be like oh this is my box I.T you're not allowed in today you can't get away with that and I think that the value that we bring to you know and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do Innovation across the board but I think what we've we're seeing in the space and I was talking with Patrick Coughlin the SVP of uh security markets about this is that you know what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose-built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data so Splunk itself is ulk know it's an ingest engine right the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it but without data it doesn't do anything right so how do you drive and how do you bring more data in and most importantly from a customer perspective how do you bring the right data in and so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a horizon 3 is that sure we do pen testing but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool we do it continuously so this whole thought I'd be like oh crud like my customers oh yeah we got a pen test coming up it's gonna be six weeks the week oh yeah you know and everyone's gonna sit on their hands call me back in two months Chris we'll talk to you then right not not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot we saw that with Uber this week right um you know and that's a case where we could have helped oh just right we could explain the Uber thing because it was a contractor just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the doctor yeah no problem so um it was uh I got I think it was yeah one of those uh you know games where they would try and test an environment um and with the uh pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like I need to reset my password we need to set my right password and eventually the um the customer service guy said okay I'm resetting it once he had reset and bypassed the multi-factor authentication he then was able to get in and get access to the building area that he was in or I think not the domain but he was able to gain access to a partial part of that Network he then paralleled over to what I would assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains and So within minutes they had access and that's the sort of stuff that we do you know a lot of these tools like um you know you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a GTA architect architecture right I'm gonna get like a z-scale or I'm going to have uh octum and I have a Splunk I've been into the solar system I mean I don't mean to name names we have crowdstriker or Sentinel one in there it's just it's a cacophony of things that don't work together they weren't designed work together and so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen tests that there will be 5 000 servers out there three are misconfigured those three misconfigurations will create the open door because remember the hacker only needs to be right once the defender needs to be right all the time and that's the challenge and so that's what I'm really passionate about what we're doing uh here at Horizon three I see this my digital transformation migration and security going on which uh we're at the tip of the spear it's why I joined sey Hall coming on this journey uh and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk I get into more details on some of the specifics of that but um you know well you're nailing I mean we've been doing a lot of things on super cloud and this next gen environment we're calling it next gen you're really seeing devops obviously devsecops has already won the it role has moved to the developer shift left is an indicator of that it's one of the many examples higher velocity code software supply chain you hear these things that means that it is now in the developer hands it is replaced by the new Ops data Ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking to your point about access there's no more perimeter huge 100 right is really right on things one time you know to get in there once you're in then you can hang out move around move laterally big problem okay so we get that now the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally how do they figure out what to do okay this is the next step they already have Splunk so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success so how would you look at that and describe the challenge is what do they do what is it what are the teams facing with their data and what's next what are they what are they what action do they take so let's use some vernacular that folks will know so if I think about devsecops right we both know what that means that I'm going to build security into the app it normally talks about sec devops right how am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing and so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we can pen test the entire environment from Soup To Nuts right so I'm going to test the end points through to its I'm going to look for misconfigurations I'm going to I'm going to look for um uh credential exposed credentials you know I'm going to look for anything I can in the environment again I'm going to do it at light speed and and what what we're doing for that SEC devops space is to you know did you detect that we were in your environment so did we alert Splunk or the Sim that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around did they more importantly did they log us into their environment and when do they detect that log to trigger that log did they alert on us and then finally most importantly for every CSO out there is going to be did they stop us and so that's how we we do this and I think you when speaking with um stay Hall before you know we've come up with this um boils but we call it fine fix verifying so what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker right we act in a production environment so we're not going to be we're a passive attacker but we will go in on credentialed on agents but we have to assume to have an assumed breach model which means we're going to put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment so we're going to go out and do an asset survey now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well you know so can Splunk see all the assets do the same assets marry up we're going to log all that data and think and then put load that into this long Sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in Enterprise right that's an immediate future ad that they've got um and then we've got the fix so once we've completed our pen test um we are then going to generate a report and we can talk about these in a little bit later but the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found which would be your asset Discovery aspect of that a fix report and the fixed report I think is probably the most important one it will go down and identify what we did how we did it and then how to fix that and then from that the pen tester or the organization should fix those then they go back and run another test and then they validate like a change detection environment to see hey did those fixes taste play take place and you know snehaw when he was the CTO of jsoc he shared with me a number of times about it's like man there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about and it's and it has to do with how we you know how they were uh prioritizing the cves and whatnot because they would take all CBDs it was critical or non-critical and it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot that brings that brings up the efficiency for Splunk specifically the teams out there by the way the burnout thing is real I mean this whole I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can keeps growing how did node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient like that's the question I want to get at because this seems like a very scale way for Splunk customers and teams service teams to be more so the question is how does node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient so so today in our early interactions we're building customers we've seen are five things um and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots right so kind of what I just talked about with you did we detect did we log did we alert did they stop node zero right and so I would I put that you know a more Layman's third grade term and if I was going to beat a fifth grader at this game would be we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk Enterprise customer a Splunk Essentials customer someone using Splunk soar or even just an Enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and just wants to know where am I exposed so by creating and generating these reports and then having um the API that actually generates the dashboard they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in and then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs right so how do we create visibility to logs that that um are have critical impacts and again as I mentioned earlier not all cves are high impact regard and also not all or low right so if you daisy chain a bunch of low cves together boom I've got a mission critical AP uh CPE that needs to be fixed now such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it that would be very bad um and then third would be uh verifying that you have all of the hosts so one of the things that splunk's not particularly great at and they'll literate themselves they don't do asset Discovery so dude what assets do we see and what are they logging from that um and then for from um for every event that they are able to identify one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low code no code environment so they could let you know Splunk customers can use Splunk sword to actually triage events and prioritize that event so where they're being routed within it to optimize the Sox team time to Market or time to triage any given event obviously reducing MTR and then finally I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is um our ability to build glass cables so behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build uh a Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table which is very familiar to the community we're going to have the ability and not too distant future to allow people to search observe on those iocs and if people aren't familiar with it ioc it's an instant of a compromise so that's a vector that we want to drill into and of course who's better at Drilling in the data and smoke yeah this is a critter this is an awesome Synergy there I mean I can see a Splunk customer going man this just gives me so much more capability action actionability and also real understanding and I think this is what I want to dig into if you don't mind understanding that critical impact okay is kind of where I see this coming got the data data ingest now data's data but the question is what not to log you know where are things misconfigured these are critical questions so can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact yeah so I think you know going back to the things that I just spoke about a lot of those cves where you'll see um uh low low low and then you daisy chain together and they're suddenly like oh this is high now but then your other impact of like if you're if you're a Splunk customer you know and I had it I had several of them I had one customer that you know terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like all right there's a lot of other data that you probably also want to bring but they could only afford wanted to do certain data sets because that's and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets and so we provide that opportunity to say hey these are the critical ones to bring in but there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low cve in this case really does mean low cve like an ILO server would be one that um that's the print server uh where the uh your admin credentials are on on like a printer and so there will be credentials on that that's something that a hacker might go in to look at so although the cve on it is low is if you daisy chain with somebody that's able to get into that you might say Ah that's high and we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate so put it on the scale and we prioritize those versus uh of all of these scanners just going to give you a bunch of CDs and good luck and translating that if I if I can and tell me if I'm wrong that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement that's it challenge right print serve a great example looks stupid low end who's going to want to deal with the print server oh but it's connected into a critical system there's a path is that kind of what you're getting at yeah I use Daisy Chain I think that's from the community they came from uh but it's just a lateral movement it's exactly what they're doing in those low level low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in right so that's the beauty thing about the uh the Uber example is that who would have thought you know I've got my monthly Factor authentication going in a human made a mistake we can't we can't not expect humans to make mistakes we're fallible right the reality is is once they were in the environment they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain uh exposed credentials that would have stopped the breach and they did not had not done that in their environment and I'm not poking yeah but it's an interesting Trend though I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well so it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spearfished because they're not paying attention because they don't have to no one ever told them hey be careful yeah for the community that I came from John that's exactly how they they would uh meet you at a uh an International Event um introduce themselves as a graduate student these are National actor States uh would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such and I was at Adobe at the time that I was working on this instead of having to get the PDF they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches and I don't know if you remember back in like 2008 time frame there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it and John that's or LinkedIn hey I want to get a joke we want to hire you double the salary oh I'm gonna click on that for sure you know yeah right exactly yeah the one thing I would say to you is like uh when we look at like sort of you know because I think we did 10 000 pen tests last year is it's probably over that now you know we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think and find people coming into the environment the funniest thing is that only one of them is a cve related vulnerability like uh you know you guys know what they are right so it's it but it's it's like two percent of the attacks are occurring through the cves but yeah there's all that attention spent to that and very little attention spent to this pen testing side which is sort of this continuous threat you know monitoring space and and this vulnerability space where I think we play a such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one yeah I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers which I loved as a you know watching that movie you know professional hackers are testing testing always testing the environment I love this I got to ask you as we kind of wrap up here Chris if you don't mind the the benefits to Professional Services from this Alliance big news Splunk and you guys work well together we see that clearly what are what other benefits do Professional Services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon 3.ai Alliance so if you're I think for from our our from both of our uh Partners uh as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner right uh is that uh first off the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at so if you're an end user you can buy uh for the Enterprise by the number of IP addresses you're using um but uh if you're a partner working with this there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to msps and what that business model on msps looks like but the unique thing that we do here is this C plus license and so the Consulting plus license allows like a uh somebody a small to mid-sized to some very large uh you know Fortune 100 uh consulting firms use this uh by buying into a license called um Consulting plus where they can have unlimited uh access to as many IPS as they want but you can only run one test at a time and as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and um checking hashes and decrypting hashes that can take a while so but for the right customer it's it's a perfect tool and so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with uh our partners so that we understand ourselves understand how not to just sell to or not tell just to sell through but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bring it into the market yeah I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled uh partners and Professional Services absolutely you know the services that layer on top of Splunk are multi-fold tons of great benefits so you guys Vector right into that ride that way with friction and and the cool thing is that in you know in one of our reports which could be totally customized uh with someone else's logo we're going to generate you know so I I used to work in another organization it wasn't Splunk but we we did uh you know pen testing as for for customers and my pen testers would come on site they'd do the engagement and they would leave and then another release someone would be oh shoot we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back you know four weeks later and so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like well even in March maybe and they're like no no I gotta breach now and and and then when they do go in they go through do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pack on the back and say there's where your problems are you need to fix it and the reality is that what we're going to generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're going to go and find all the permutations of anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you've fixed everything you just go back and run another pen test it's you know for what people pay for one pen test they can have a tool that does that every every Pat patch on Tuesday and that's on Wednesday you know triage throughout the week green yellow red I wanted to see the colors show me green green is good right not red and one CIO doesn't want who doesn't want that dashboard right it's it's exactly it and we can help bring I think that you know I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team because they get that they understand that it's the green yellow red dashboard and and how do we help them find more green uh so that the other guys are in red yeah and get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data know what to look at so many things to pay attention to you know the combination of both and then go to market strategy real brilliant congratulations Chris thanks for coming on and sharing um this news with the detail around the Splunk in action around the alliance thanks for sharing John my pleasure thanks look forward to seeing you soon all right great we'll follow up and do another segment on devops and I.T and security teams as the new new Ops but and super cloud a bunch of other stuff so thanks for coming on and our next segment the CEO of horizon 3.aa will break down all the new news for us here on thecube you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] yeah the partner program for us has been fantastic you know I think prior to that you know as most organizations most uh uh most Farmers most mssps might not necessarily have a a bench at all for penetration testing uh maybe they subcontract this work out or maybe they do it themselves but trying to staff that kind of position can be incredibly difficult for us this was a differentiator a a new a new partner a new partnership that allowed us to uh not only perform services for our customers but be able to provide a product by which that they can do it themselves so we work with our customers in a variety of ways some of them want more routine testing and perform this themselves but we're also a certified service provider of horizon 3 being able to perform uh penetration tests uh help review the the data provide color provide analysis for our customers in a broader sense right not necessarily the the black and white elements of you know what was uh what's critical what's high what's medium what's low what you need to fix but are there systemic issues this has allowed us to onboard new customers this has allowed us to migrate some penetration testing services to us from from competitors in the marketplace But ultimately this is occurring because the the product and the outcome are special they're unique and they're effective our customers like what they're seeing they like the routineness of it many of them you know again like doing this themselves you know being able to kind of pen test themselves parts of their networks um and the the new use cases right I'm a large organization I have eight to ten Acquisitions per year wouldn't it be great to have a tool to be able to perform a penetration test both internal and external of that acquisition before we integrate the two companies and maybe bringing on some risk it's a very effective partnership uh one that really is uh kind of taken our our Engineers our account Executives by storm um you know this this is a a partnership that's been very valuable to us [Music] a key part of the value and business model at Horizon 3 is enabling Partners to leverage node zero to make more revenue for themselves our goal is that for sixty percent of our Revenue this year will be originated by partners and that 95 of our Revenue next year will be originated by partners and so a key to that strategy is making us an integral part of your business models as a partner a key quote from one of our partners is that we enable every one of their business units to generate Revenue so let's talk about that in a little bit more detail first is that if you have a pen test Consulting business take Deloitte as an example what was six weeks of human labor at Deloitte per pen test has been cut down to four days of Labor using node zero to conduct reconnaissance find all the juicy interesting areas of the of the Enterprise that are exploitable and being able to go assess the entire organization and then all of those details get served up to the human to be able to look at understand and determine where to probe deeper so what you see in that pen test Consulting business is that node zero becomes a force multiplier where those Consulting teams were able to cover way more accounts and way more IPS within those accounts with the same or fewer consultants and so that directly leads to profit margin expansion for the Penn testing business itself because node 0 is a force multiplier the second business model here is if you're an mssp as an mssp you're already making money providing defensive cyber security operations for a large volume of customers and so what they do is they'll license node zero and use us as an upsell to their mssb business to start to deliver either continuous red teaming continuous verification or purple teaming as a service and so in that particular business model they've got an additional line of Revenue where they can increase the spend of their existing customers by bolting on node 0 as a purple team as a service offering the third business model or customer type is if you're an I.T services provider so as an I.T services provider you make money installing and configuring security products like Splunk or crowdstrike or hemio you also make money reselling those products and you also make money generating follow-on services to continue to harden your customer environments and so for them what what those it service providers will do is use us to verify that they've installed Splunk correctly improved to their customer that Splunk was installed correctly or crowdstrike was installed correctly using our results and then use our results to drive follow-on services and revenue and then finally we've got the value-added reseller which is just a straight up reseller because of how fast our sales Cycles are these vars are able to typically go from cold email to deal close in six to eight weeks at Horizon 3 at least a single sales engineer is able to run 30 to 50 pocs concurrently because our pocs are very lightweight and don't require any on-prem customization or heavy pre-sales post sales activity so as a result we're able to have a few amount of sellers driving a lot of Revenue and volume for us well the same thing applies to bars there isn't a lot of effort to sell the product or prove its value so vars are able to sell a lot more Horizon 3 node zero product without having to build up a huge specialist sales organization so what I'm going to do is talk through uh scenario three here as an I.T service provider and just how powerful node zero can be in driving additional Revenue so in here think of for every one dollar of node zero license purchased by the IT service provider to do their business it'll generate ten dollars of additional revenue for that partner so in this example kidney group uses node 0 to verify that they have installed and deployed Splunk correctly so Kitty group is a Splunk partner they they sell it services to install configure deploy and maintain Splunk and as they deploy Splunk they're going to use node 0 to attack the environment and make sure that the right logs and alerts and monitoring are being handled within the Splunk deployment so it's a way of doing QA or verifying that Splunk has been configured correctly and that's going to be internally used by kidney group to prove the quality of their services that they've just delivered then what they're going to do is they're going to show and leave behind that node zero Report with their client and that creates a resell opportunity for for kidney group to resell node 0 to their client because their client is seeing the reports and the results and saying wow this is pretty amazing and those reports can be co-branded where it's a pen testing report branded with kidney group but it says powered by Horizon three under it from there kidney group is able to take the fixed actions report that's automatically generated with every pen test through node zero and they're able to use that as the starting point for a statement of work to sell follow-on services to fix all of the problems that node zero identified fixing l11r misconfigurations fixing or patching VMware or updating credentials policies and so on so what happens is node 0 has found a bunch of problems the client often lacks the capacity to fix and so kidney group can use that lack of capacity by the client as a follow-on sales opportunity for follow-on services and finally based on the findings from node zero kidney group can look at that report and say to the customer you know customer if you bought crowdstrike you'd be able to uh prevent node Zero from attacking and succeeding in the way that it did for if you bought humano or if you bought Palo Alto networks or if you bought uh some privileged access management solution because of what node 0 was able to do with credential harvesting and attacks and so as a result kidney group is able to resell other security products within their portfolio crowdstrike Falcon humano Polito networks demisto Phantom and so on based on the gaps that were identified by node zero and that pen test and what that creates is another feedback loop where kidney group will then go use node 0 to verify that crowdstrike product has actually been installed and configured correctly and then this becomes the cycle of using node 0 to verify a deployment using that verification to drive a bunch of follow-on services and resell opportunities which then further drives more usage of the product now the way that we licensed is that it's a usage-based license licensing model so that the partner will grow their node zero Consulting plus license as they grow their business so for example if you're a kidney group then week one you've got you're going to use node zero to verify your Splunk install in week two if you have a pen testing business you're going to go off and use node zero to be a force multiplier for your pen testing uh client opportunity and then if you have an mssp business then in week three you're going to use node zero to go execute a purple team mssp offering for your clients so not necessarily a kidney group but if you're a Deloitte or ATT these larger companies and you've got multiple lines of business if you're Optive for instance you all you have to do is buy one Consulting plus license and you're going to be able to run as many pen tests as you want sequentially so now you can buy a single license and use that one license to meet your week one client commitments and then meet your week two and then meet your week three and as you grow your business you start to run multiple pen tests concurrently so in week one you've got to do a Splunk verify uh verify Splunk install and you've got to run a pen test and you've got to do a purple team opportunity you just simply expand the number of Consulting plus licenses from one license to three licenses and so now as you systematically grow your business you're able to grow your node zero capacity with you giving you predictable cogs predictable margins and once again 10x additional Revenue opportunity for that investment in the node zero Consulting plus license my name is Saint I'm the co-founder and CEO here at Horizon 3. I'm going to talk to you today about why it's important to look at your Enterprise Through The Eyes of an attacker the challenge I had when I was a CIO in banking the CTO at Splunk and serving within the Department of Defense is that I had no idea I was Secure until the bad guys had showed up am I logging the right data am I fixing the right vulnerabilities are my security tools that I've paid millions of dollars for actually working together to defend me and the answer is I don't know does my team actually know how to respond to a breach in the middle of an incident I don't know I've got to wait for the bad guys to show up and so the challenge I had was how do we proactively verify our security posture I tried a variety of techniques the first was the use of vulnerability scanners and the challenge with vulnerability scanners is being vulnerable doesn't mean you're exploitable I might have a hundred thousand findings from my scanner of which maybe five or ten can actually be exploited in my environment the other big problem with scanners is that they can't chain weaknesses together from machine to machine so if you've got a thousand machines in your environment or more what a vulnerability scanner will do is tell you you have a problem on machine one and separately a problem on machine two but what they can tell you is that an attacker could use a load from machine one plus a low from machine two to equal to critical in your environment and what attackers do in their tactics is they chain together misconfigurations dangerous product defaults harvested credentials and exploitable vulnerabilities into attack paths across different machines so to address the attack pads across different machines I tried layering in consulting-based pen testing and the issue is when you've got thousands of hosts or hundreds of thousands of hosts in your environment human-based pen testing simply doesn't scale to test an infrastructure of that size moreover when they actually do execute a pen test and you get the report oftentimes you lack the expertise within your team to quickly retest to verify that you've actually fixed the problem and so what happens is you end up with these pen test reports that are incomplete snapshots and quickly going stale and then to mitigate that problem I tried using breach and attack simulation tools and the struggle with these tools is one I had to install credentialed agents everywhere two I had to write my own custom attack scripts that I didn't have much talent for but also I had to maintain as my environment changed and then three these types of tools were not safe to run against production systems which was the the majority of my attack surface so that's why we went off to start Horizon 3. so Tony and I met when we were in Special Operations together and the challenge we wanted to solve was how do we do infrastructure security testing at scale by giving the the power of a 20-year pen testing veteran into the hands of an I.T admin a network engineer in just three clicks and the whole idea is we enable these fixers The Blue Team to be able to run node Zero Hour pen testing product to quickly find problems in their environment that blue team will then then go off and fix the issues that were found and then they can quickly rerun the attack to verify that they fixed the problem and the whole idea is delivering this without requiring custom scripts be developed without requiring credential agents be installed and without requiring the use of external third-party consulting services or Professional Services self-service pen testing to quickly Drive find fix verify there are three primary use cases that our customers use us for the first is the sock manager that uses us to verify that their security tools are actually effective to verify that they're logging the right data in Splunk or in their Sim to verify that their managed security services provider is able to quickly detect and respond to an attack and hold them accountable for their slas or that the sock understands how to quickly detect and respond and measuring and verifying that or that the variety of tools that you have in your stack most organizations have 130 plus cyber security tools none of which are designed to work together are actually working together the second primary use case is proactively hardening and verifying your systems this is when the I that it admin that network engineer they're able to run self-service pen tests to verify that their Cisco environment is installed in hardened and configured correctly or that their credential policies are set up right or that their vcenter or web sphere or kubernetes environments are actually designed to be secure and what this allows the it admins and network Engineers to do is shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 30 40 or more pen tests a month and you can actually wire those pen tests into your devops process or into your detection engineering and the change management processes to automatically trigger pen tests every time there's a change in your environment the third primary use case is for those organizations lucky enough to have their own internal red team they'll use node zero to do reconnaissance and exploitation at scale and then use the output as a starting point for the humans to step in and focus on the really hard juicy stuff that gets them on stage at Defcon and so these are the three primary use cases and what we'll do is zoom into the find fix verify Loop because what I've found in my experience is find fix verify is the future operating model for cyber security organizations and what I mean here is in the find using continuous pen testing what you want to enable is on-demand self-service pen tests you want those pen tests to find attack pads at scale spanning your on-prem infrastructure your Cloud infrastructure and your perimeter because attackers don't only state in one place they will find ways to chain together a perimeter breach a credential from your on-prem to gain access to your cloud or some other permutation and then the third part in continuous pen testing is attackers don't focus on critical vulnerabilities anymore they know we've built vulnerability Management Programs to reduce those vulnerabilities so attackers have adapted and what they do is chain together misconfigurations in your infrastructure and software and applications with dangerous product defaults with exploitable vulnerabilities and through the collection of credentials through a mix of techniques at scale once you've found those problems the next question is what do you do about it well you want to be able to prioritize fixing problems that are actually exploitable in your environment that truly matter meaning they're going to lead to domain compromise or domain user compromise or access your sensitive data the second thing you want to fix is making sure you understand what risk your crown jewels data is exposed to where is your crown jewels data is in the cloud is it on-prem has it been copied to a share drive that you weren't aware of if a domain user was compromised could they access that crown jewels data you want to be able to use the attacker's perspective to secure the critical data you have in your infrastructure and then finally as you fix these problems you want to quickly remediate and retest that you've actually fixed the issue and this fine fix verify cycle becomes that accelerator that drives purple team culture the third part here is verify and what you want to be able to do in the verify step is verify that your security tools and processes in people can effectively detect and respond to a breach you want to be able to integrate that into your detection engineering processes so that you know you're catching the right security rules or that you've deployed the right configurations you also want to make sure that your environment is adhering to the best practices around systems hardening in cyber resilience and finally you want to be able to prove your security posture over a time to your board to your leadership into your regulators so what I'll do now is zoom into each of these three steps so when we zoom in to find here's the first example using node 0 and autonomous pen testing and what an attacker will do is find a way to break through the perimeter in this example it's very easy to misconfigure kubernetes to allow an attacker to gain remote code execution into your on-prem kubernetes environment and break through the perimeter and from there what the attacker is going to do is conduct Network reconnaissance and then find ways to gain code execution on other machines in the environment and as they get code execution they start to dump credentials collect a bunch of ntlm hashes crack those hashes using open source and dark web available data as part of those attacks and then reuse those credentials to log in and laterally maneuver throughout the environment and then as they loudly maneuver they can reuse those credentials and use credential spraying techniques and so on to compromise your business email to log in as admin into your cloud and this is a very common attack and rarely is a CV actually needed to execute this attack often it's just a misconfiguration in kubernetes with a bad credential policy or password policy combined with bad practices of credential reuse across the organization here's another example of an internal pen test and this is from an actual customer they had 5 000 hosts within their environment they had EDR and uba tools installed and they initiated in an internal pen test on a single machine from that single initial access point node zero enumerated the network conducted reconnaissance and found five thousand hosts were accessible what node 0 will do under the covers is organize all of that reconnaissance data into a knowledge graph that we call the Cyber terrain map and that cyber Terrain map becomes the key data structure that we use to efficiently maneuver and attack and compromise your environment so what node zero will do is they'll try to find ways to get code execution reuse credentials and so on in this customer example they had Fortinet installed as their EDR but node 0 was still able to get code execution on a Windows machine from there it was able to successfully dump credentials including sensitive credentials from the lsas process on the Windows box and then reuse those credentials to log in as domain admin in the network and once an attacker becomes domain admin they have the keys to the kingdom they can do anything they want so what happened here well it turns out Fortinet was misconfigured on three out of 5000 machines bad automation the customer had no idea this had happened they would have had to wait for an attacker to show up to realize that it was misconfigured the second thing is well why didn't Fortinet stop the credential pivot in the lateral movement and it turned out the customer didn't buy the right modules or turn on the right services within that particular product and we see this not only with Ford in it but we see this with Trend Micro and all the other defensive tools where it's very easy to miss a checkbox in the configuration that will do things like prevent credential dumping the next story I'll tell you is attackers don't have to hack in they log in so another infrastructure pen test a typical technique attackers will take is man in the middle uh attacks that will collect hashes so in this case what an attacker will do is leverage a tool or technique called responder to collect ntlm hashes that are being passed around the network and there's a variety of reasons why these hashes are passed around and it's a pretty common misconfiguration but as an attacker collects those hashes then they start to apply techniques to crack those hashes so they'll pass the hash and from there they will use open source intelligence common password structures and patterns and other types of techniques to try to crack those hashes into clear text passwords so here node 0 automatically collected hashes it automatically passed the hashes to crack those credentials and then from there it starts to take the domain user user ID passwords that it's collected and tries to access different services and systems in your Enterprise in this case node 0 is able to successfully gain access to the Office 365 email environment because three employees didn't have MFA configured so now what happens is node 0 has a placement and access in the business email system which sets up the conditions for fraud lateral phishing and other techniques but what's especially insightful here is that 80 of the hashes that were collected in this pen test were cracked in 15 minutes or less 80 percent 26 of the user accounts had a password that followed a pretty obvious pattern first initial last initial and four random digits the other thing that was interesting is 10 percent of service accounts had their user ID the same as their password so VMware admin VMware admin web sphere admin web Square admin so on and so forth and so attackers don't have to hack in they just log in with credentials that they've collected the next story here is becoming WS AWS admin so in this example once again internal pen test node zero gets initial access it discovers 2 000 hosts are network reachable from that environment if fingerprints and organizes all of that data into a cyber Terrain map from there it it fingerprints that hpilo the integrated lights out service was running on a subset of hosts hpilo is a service that is often not instrumented or observed by security teams nor is it easy to patch as a result attackers know this and immediately go after those types of services so in this case that ILO service was exploitable and were able to get code execution on it ILO stores all the user IDs and passwords in clear text in a particular set of processes so once we gain code execution we were able to dump all of the credentials and then from there laterally maneuver to log in to the windows box next door as admin and then on that admin box we're able to gain access to the share drives and we found a credentials file saved on a share Drive from there it turned out that credentials file was the AWS admin credentials file giving us full admin authority to their AWS accounts not a single security alert was triggered in this attack because the customer wasn't observing the ILO service and every step thereafter was a valid login in the environment and so what do you do step one patch the server step two delete the credentials file from the share drive and then step three is get better instrumentation on privileged access users and login the final story I'll tell is a typical pattern that we see across the board with that combines the various techniques I've described together where an attacker is going to go off and use open source intelligence to find all of the employees that work at your company from there they're going to look up those employees on dark web breach databases and other forms of information and then use that as a starting point to password spray to compromise a domain user all it takes is one employee to reuse a breached password for their Corporate email or all it takes is a single employee to have a weak password that's easily guessable all it takes is one and once the attacker is able to gain domain user access in most shops domain user is also the local admin on their laptop and once your local admin you can dump Sam and get local admin until M hashes you can use that to reuse credentials again local admin on neighboring machines and attackers will start to rinse and repeat then eventually they're able to get to a point where they can dump lsas or by unhooking the anti-virus defeating the EDR or finding a misconfigured EDR as we've talked about earlier to compromise the domain and what's consistent is that the fundamentals are broken at these shops they have poor password policies they don't have least access privilege implemented active directory groups are too permissive where domain admin or domain user is also the local admin uh AV or EDR Solutions are misconfigured or easily unhooked and so on and what we found in 10 000 pen tests is that user Behavior analytics tools never caught us in that lateral movement in part because those tools require pristine logging data in order to work and also it becomes very difficult to find that Baseline of normal usage versus abnormal usage of credential login another interesting Insight is there were several Marquee brand name mssps that were defending our customers environment and for them it took seven hours to detect and respond to the pen test seven hours the pen test was over in less than two hours and so what you had was an egregious violation of the service level agreements that that mssp had in place and the customer was able to use us to get service credit and drive accountability of their sock and of their provider the third interesting thing is in one case it took us seven minutes to become domain admin in a bank that bank had every Gucci security tool you could buy yet in 7 minutes and 19 seconds node zero started as an unauthenticated member of the network and was able to escalate privileges through chaining and misconfigurations in lateral movement and so on to become domain admin if it's seven minutes today we should assume it'll be less than a minute a year or two from now making it very difficult for humans to be able to detect and respond to that type of Blitzkrieg attack so that's in the find it's not just about finding problems though the bulk of the effort should be what to do about it the fix and the verify so as you find those problems back to kubernetes as an example we will show you the path here is the kill chain we took to compromise that environment we'll show you the impact here is the impact or here's the the proof of exploitation that we were able to use to be able to compromise it and there's the actual command that we executed so you could copy and paste that command and compromise that cubelet yourself if you want and then the impact is we got code execution and we'll actually show you here is the impact this is a critical here's why it enabled perimeter breach affected applications will tell you the specific IPS where you've got the problem how it maps to the miter attack framework and then we'll tell you exactly how to fix it we'll also show you what this problem enabled so you can accurately prioritize why this is important or why it's not important the next part is accurate prioritization the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix so if you take SMB signing not required as an example by default that CVSs score is a one out of 10. but this misconfiguration is not a cve it's a misconfig enable an attacker to gain access to 19 credentials including one domain admin two local admins and access to a ton of data because of that context this is really a 10 out of 10. you better fix this as soon as possible however of the seven occurrences that we found it's only a critical in three out of the seven and these are the three specific machines and we'll tell you the exact way to fix it and you better fix these as soon as possible for these four machines over here these didn't allow us to do anything of consequence so that because the hardest part is deciding what not to fix you can justifiably choose not to fix these four issues right now and just add them to your backlog and surge your team to fix these three as quickly as possible and then once you fix these three you don't have to re-run the entire pen test you can select these three and then one click verify and run a very narrowly scoped pen test that is only testing this specific issue and what that creates is a much faster cycle of finding and fixing problems the other part of fixing is verifying that you don't have sensitive data at risk so once we become a domain user we're able to use those domain user credentials and try to gain access to databases file shares S3 buckets git repos and so on and help you understand what sensitive data you have at risk so in this example a green checkbox means we logged in as a valid domain user we're able to get read write access on the database this is how many records we could have accessed and we don't actually look at the values in the database but we'll show you the schema so you can quickly characterize that pii data was at risk here and we'll do that for your file shares and other sources of data so now you can accurately articulate the data you have at risk and prioritize cleaning that data up especially data that will lead to a fine or a big news issue so that's the find that's the fix now we're going to talk about the verify the key part in verify is embracing and integrating with detection engineering practices so when you think about your layers of security tools you've got lots of tools in place on average 130 tools at any given customer but these tools were not designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to do is say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us did you stop us and from there what you want to see is okay what are the techniques that are commonly used to defeat an environment to actually compromise if you look at the top 10 techniques we use and there's far more than just these 10 but these are the most often executed nine out of ten have nothing to do with cves it has to do with misconfigurations dangerous product defaults bad credential policies and it's how we chain those together to become a domain admin or compromise a host so what what customers will do is every single attacker command we executed is provided to you as an attackivity log so you can actually see every single attacker command we ran the time stamp it was executed the hosts it executed on and how it Maps the minor attack tactics so our customers will have are these attacker logs on one screen and then they'll go look into Splunk or exabeam or Sentinel one or crowdstrike and say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us or not and to make that even easier if you take this example hey Splunk what logs did you see at this time on the VMware host because that's when node 0 is able to dump credentials and that allows you to identify and fix your logging blind spots to make that easier we've got app integration so this is an actual Splunk app in the Splunk App Store and what you can come is inside the Splunk console itself you can fire up the Horizon 3 node 0 app all of the pen test results are here so that you can see all of the results in one place and you don't have to jump out of the tool and what you'll show you as I skip forward is hey there's a pen test here are the critical issues that we've identified for that weaker default issue here are the exact commands we executed and then we will automatically query into Splunk all all terms on between these times on that endpoint that relate to this attack so you can now quickly within the Splunk environment itself figure out that you're missing logs or that you're appropriately catching this issue and that becomes incredibly important in that detection engineering cycle that I mentioned earlier so how do our customers end up using us they shift from running one pen test a year to 30 40 pen tests a month oftentimes wiring us into their deployment automation to automatically run pen tests the other part that they'll do is as they run more pen tests they find more issues but eventually they hit this inflection point where they're able to rapidly clean up their environment and that inflection point is because the red and the blue teams start working together in a purple team culture and now they're working together to proactively harden their environment the other thing our customers will do is run us from different perspectives they'll first start running an RFC 1918 scope to see once the attacker gained initial access in a part of the network that had wide access what could they do and then from there they'll run us within a specific Network segment okay from within that segment could the attacker break out and gain access to another segment then they'll run us from their work from home environment could they Traverse the VPN and do something damaging and once they're in could they Traverse the VPN and get into my cloud then they'll break in from the outside all of these perspectives are available to you in Horizon 3 and node zero as a single SKU and you can run as many pen tests as you want if you run a phishing campaign and find that an intern in the finance department had the worst phishing behavior you can then inject their credentials and actually show the end-to-end story of how an attacker fished gained credentials of an intern and use that to gain access to sensitive financial data so what our customers end up doing is running multiple attacks from multiple perspectives and looking at those results over time I'll leave you two things one is what is the AI in Horizon 3 AI those knowledge graphs are the heart and soul of everything that we do and we use machine learning reinforcement techniques reinforcement learning techniques Markov decision models and so on to be able to efficiently maneuver and analyze the paths in those really large graphs we also use context-based scoring to prioritize weaknesses and we're also able to drive collective intelligence across all of the operations so the more pen tests we run the smarter we get and all of that is based on our knowledge graph analytics infrastructure that we have finally I'll leave you with this was my decision criteria when I was a buyer for my security testing strategy what I cared about was coverage I wanted to be able to assess my on-prem cloud perimeter and work from home and be safe to run in production I want to be able to do that as often as I wanted I want to be able to run pen tests in hours or days not weeks or months so I could accelerate that fine fix verify loop I wanted my it admins and network Engineers with limited offensive experience to be able to run a pen test in a few clicks through a self-service experience and not have to install agent and not have to write custom scripts and finally I didn't want to get nickeled and dimed on having to buy different types of attack modules or different types of attacks I wanted a single annual subscription that allowed me to run any type of attack as often as I wanted so I could look at my Trends in directions over time so I hope you found this talk valuable uh we're easy to find and I look forward to seeing seeing you use a product and letting our results do the talking when you look at uh you know kind of the way no our pen testing algorithms work is we dynamically select uh how to compromise an environment based on what we've discovered and the goal is to become a domain admin compromise a host compromise domain users find ways to encrypt data steal sensitive data and so on but when you look at the the top 10 techniques that we ended up uh using to compromise environments the first nine have nothing to do with cves and that's the reality cves are yes a vector but less than two percent of cves are actually used in a compromise oftentimes it's some sort of credential collection credential cracking uh credential pivoting and using that to become an admin and then uh compromising environments from that point on so I'll leave this up for you to kind of read through and you'll have the slides available for you but I found it very insightful that organizations and ourselves when I was a GE included invested heavily in just standard vulnerability Management Programs when I was at DOD that's all disa cared about asking us about was our our kind of our cve posture but the attackers have adapted to not rely on cves to get in because they know that organizations are actively looking at and patching those cves and instead they're chaining together credentials from one place with misconfigurations and dangerous product defaults in another to take over an environment a concrete example is by default vcenter backups are not encrypted and so as if an attacker finds vcenter what they'll do is find the backup location and there are specific V sender MTD files where the admin credentials are parsippled in the binaries so you can actually as an attacker find the right MTD file parse out the binary and now you've got the admin credentials for the vcenter environment and now start to log in as admin there's a bad habit by signal officers and Signal practitioners in the in the Army and elsewhere where the the VM notes section of a virtual image has the password for the VM well those VM notes are not stored encrypted and attackers know this and they're able to go off and find the VMS that are unencrypted find the note section and pull out the passwords for those images and then reuse those credentials across the board so I'll pause here and uh you know Patrick love you get some some commentary on on these techniques and other things that you've seen and what we'll do in the last say 10 to 15 minutes is uh is rolled through a little bit more on what do you do about it yeah yeah no I love it I think um I think this is pretty exhaustive what I like about what you've done here is uh you know we've seen we've seen double-digit increases in the number of organizations that are reporting actual breaches year over year for the last um for the last three years and it's often we kind of in the Zeitgeist we pegged that on ransomware which of course is like incredibly important and very top of mind um but what I like about what you have here is you know we're reminding the audience that the the attack surface area the vectors the matter um you know has to be more comprehensive than just thinking about ransomware scenarios yeah right on um so let's build on this when you think about your defense in depth you've got multiple security controls that you've purchased and integrated and you've got that redundancy if a control fails but the reality is that these security tools aren't designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to ask yourself is did you detect node zero did you log node zero did you alert on node zero and did you stop node zero and when you think about how to do that every single attacker command executed by node zero is available in an attacker log so you can now see you know at the bottom here vcenter um exploit at that time on that IP how it aligns to minor attack what you want to be able to do is go figure out did your security tools catch this or not and that becomes very important in using the attacker's perspective to improve your defensive security controls and so the way we've tried to make this easier back to like my my my the you know I bleed Green in many ways still from my smoke background is you want to be able to and what our customers do is hey we'll look at the attacker logs on one screen and they'll look at what did Splunk see or Miss in another screen and then they'll use that to figure out what their logging blind spots are and what that where that becomes really interesting is we've actually built out an integration into Splunk where there's a Splunk app you can download off of Splunk base and you'll get all of the pen test results right there in the Splunk console and from that Splunk console you're gonna be able to see these are all the pen tests that were run these are the issues that were found um so you can look at that particular pen test here are all of the weaknesses that were identified for that particular pen test and how they categorize out for each of those weaknesses you can click on any one of them that are critical in this case and then we'll tell you for that weakness and this is where where the the punch line comes in so I'll pause the video here for that weakness these are the commands that were executed on these endpoints at this time and then we'll actually query Splunk for that um for that IP address or containing that IP and these are the source types that surface any sort of activity so what we try to do is help you as quickly and efficiently as possible identify the logging blind spots in your Splunk environment based on the attacker's perspective so as this video kind of plays through you can see it Patrick I'd love to get your thoughts um just seeing so many Splunk deployments and the effectiveness of those deployments and and how this is going to help really Elevate the effectiveness of all of your Splunk customers yeah I'm super excited about this I mean I think this these kinds of purpose-built integration snail really move the needle for our customers I mean at the end of the day when I think about the power of Splunk I think about a product I was first introduced to 12 years ago that was an on-prem piece of software you know and at the time it sold on sort of Perpetual and term licenses but one made it special was that it could it could it could eat data at a speed that nothing else that I'd have ever seen you can ingest massively scalable amounts of data uh did cool things like schema on read which facilitated that there was this language called SPL that you could nerd out about uh and you went to a conference once a year and you talked about all the cool things you were splunking right but now as we think about the next phase of our growth um we live in a heterogeneous environment where our customers have so many different tools and data sources that are ever expanding and as you look at the as you look at the role of the ciso it's mind-blowing to me the amount of sources Services apps that are coming into the ciso span of let's just call it a span of influence in the last three years uh you know we're seeing things like infrastructure service level visibility application performance monitoring stuff that just never made sense for the security team to have visibility into you um at least not at the size and scale which we're demanding today um and and that's different and this isn't this is why it's so important that we have these joint purpose-built Integrations that um really provide more prescription to our customers about how do they walk on that Journey towards maturity what does zero to one look like what does one to two look like whereas you know 10 years ago customers were happy with platforms today they want integration they want Solutions and they want to drive outcomes and I think this is a great example of how together we are stepping to the evolving nature of the market and also the ever-evolving nature of the threat landscape and what I would say is the maturing needs of the customer in that environment yeah for sure I think especially if if we all anticipate budget pressure over the next 18 months due to the economy and elsewhere while the security budgets are not going to ever I don't think they're going to get cut they're not going to grow as fast and there's a lot more pressure on organizations to extract more value from their existing Investments as well as extracting more value and more impact from their existing teams and so security Effectiveness Fierce prioritization and automation I think become the three key themes of security uh over the next 18 months so I'll do very quickly is run through a few other use cases um every host that we identified in the pen test were able to score and say this host allowed us to do something significant therefore it's it's really critical you should be increasing your logging here hey these hosts down here we couldn't really do anything as an attacker so if you do have to make trade-offs you can make some trade-offs of your logging resolution at the lower end in order to increase logging resolution on the upper end so you've got that level of of um justification for where to increase or or adjust your logging resolution another example is every host we've discovered as an attacker we Expose and you can export and we want to make sure is every host we found as an attacker is being ingested from a Splunk standpoint a big issue I had as a CIO and user of Splunk and other tools is I had no idea if there were Rogue Raspberry Pi's on the network or if a new box was installed and whether Splunk was installed on it or not so now you can quickly start to correlate what hosts did we see and how does that reconcile with what you're logging from uh finally or second to last use case here on the Splunk integration side is for every single problem we've found we give multiple options for how to fix it this becomes a great way to prioritize what fixed actions to automate in your soar platform and what we want to get to eventually is being able to automatically trigger soar actions to fix well-known problems like automatically invalidating passwords for for poor poor passwords in our credentials amongst a whole bunch of other things we could go off and do and then finally if there is a well-known kill chain or attack path one of the things I really wish I could have done when I was a Splunk customer was take this type of kill chain that actually shows a path to domain admin that I'm sincerely worried about and use it as a glass table over which I could start to layer possible indicators of compromise and now you've got a great starting point for glass tables and iocs for actual kill chains that we know are exploitable in your environment and that becomes some super cool Integrations that we've got on the roadmap between us and the Splunk security side of the house so what I'll leave with actually Patrick before I do that you know um love to get your comments and then I'll I'll kind of leave with one last slide on this wartime security mindset uh pending you know assuming there's no other questions no I love it I mean I think this kind of um it's kind of glass table's approach to how do you how do you sort of visualize these workflows and then use things like sore and orchestration and automation to operationalize them is exactly where we see all of our customers going and getting away from I think an over engineered approach to soar with where it has to be super technical heavy with you know python programmers and getting more to this visual view of workflow creation um that really demystifies the power of Automation and also democratizes it so you don't have to have these programming languages in your resume in order to start really moving the needle on workflow creation policy enforcement and ultimately driving automation coverage across more and more of the workflows that your team is seeing yeah I think that between us being able to visualize the actual kill chain or attack path with you know think of a of uh the soar Market I think going towards this no code low code um you know configurable sore versus coded sore that's going to really be a game changer in improve or giving security teams a force multiplier so what I'll leave you with is this peacetime mindset of security no longer is sustainable we really have to get out of checking the box and then waiting for the bad guys to show up to verify that security tools are are working or not and the reason why we've got to really do that quickly is there are over a thousand companies that withdrew from the Russian economy over the past uh nine months due to the Ukrainian War there you should expect every one of them to be punished by the Russians for leaving and punished from a cyber standpoint and this is no longer about financial extortion that is ransomware this is about punishing and destroying companies and you can punish any one of these companies by going after them directly or by going after their suppliers and their Distributors so suddenly your attack surface is no more no longer just your own Enterprise it's how you bring your goods to Market and it's how you get your goods created because while I may not be able to disrupt your ability to harvest fruit if I can get those trucks stuck at the border I can increase spoilage and have the same effect and what we should expect to see is this idea of cyber-enabled economic Warfare where if we issue a sanction like Banning the Russians from traveling there is a cyber-enabled counter punch which is corrupt and destroy the American Airlines database that is below the threshold of War that's not going to trigger the 82nd Airborne to be mobilized but it's going to achieve the right effect ban the sale of luxury goods disrupt the supply chain and create shortages banned Russian oil and gas attack refineries to call a 10x spike in gas prices three days before the election this is the future and therefore I think what we have to do is shift towards a wartime mindset which is don't trust your security posture verify it see yourself Through The Eyes of the attacker build that incident response muscle memory and drive better collaboration between the red and the blue teams your suppliers and Distributors and your information uh sharing organization they have in place and what's really valuable for me as a Splunk customer was when a router crashes at that moment you don't know if it's due to an I.T Administration problem or an attacker and what you want to have are different people asking different questions of the same data and you want to have that integrated triage process of an I.T lens to that problem a security lens to that problem and then from there figuring out is is this an IT workflow to execute or a security incident to execute and you want to have all of that as an integrated team integrated process integrated technology stack and this is something that I very care I cared very deeply about as both a Splunk customer and a Splunk CTO that I see time and time again across the board so Patrick I'll leave you with the last word the final three minutes here and I don't see any open questions so please take us home oh man see how you think we spent hours and hours prepping for this together that that last uh uh 40 seconds of your talk track is probably one of the things I'm most passionate about in this industry right now uh and I think nist has done some really interesting work here around building cyber resilient organizations that have that has really I think helped help the industry see that um incidents can come from adverse conditions you know stress is uh uh performance taxations in the infrastructure service or app layer and they can come from malicious compromises uh Insider threats external threat actors and the more that we look at this from the perspective of of a broader cyber resilience Mission uh in a wartime mindset uh I I think we're going to be much better off and and will you talk about with operationally minded ice hacks information sharing intelligence sharing becomes so important in these wartime uh um situations and you know we know not all ice acts are created equal but we're also seeing a lot of um more ad hoc information sharing groups popping up so look I think I think you framed it really really well I love the concept of wartime mindset and um I I like the idea of applying a cyber resilience lens like if you have one more layer on top of that bottom right cake you know I think the it lens and the security lens they roll up to this concept of cyber resilience and I think this has done some great work there for us yeah you're you're spot on and that that is app and that's gonna I think be the the next um terrain that that uh that you're gonna see vendors try to get after but that I think Splunk is best position to win okay that's a wrap for this special Cube presentation you heard all about the global expansion of horizon 3.ai's partner program for their Partners have a unique opportunity to take advantage of their node zero product uh International go to Market expansion North America channel Partnerships and just overall relationships with companies like Splunk to make things more comprehensive in this disruptive cyber security world we live in and hope you enjoyed this program all the videos are available on thecube.net as well as check out Horizon 3 dot AI for their pen test Automation and ultimately their defense system that they use for testing always the environment that you're in great Innovative product and I hope you enjoyed the program again I'm John Furrier host of the cube thanks for watching

>>Welcome back to the aria in Las Vegas, Dave Valante with Dave Nicholson, Falcon 22, the Cube's continuous coverage. Sean Henry is here. He's the president of the services division and he's the chief security officer at CrowdStrike. And he's joined by Kevin mania, CEO of Mandy. Now part of Google Jens. Welcome to the cube. Thank you. Congrats on closing the Google deal. Thank you. That's great. New chapter, >>New >>Chapter coming fresh off the keynote, you and George. I really en enjoyed that. Let's start there. One of the things you talked about was the changes you've been, you've been in this business for a while. I think you were talking about, you know, doing some of these early stuff in the nineties. Wow. Things have changed a lot the queen, right? Right. You used to put the perimeter around the queen. Yeah. Build the Mo the Queen's left or castle new ballgame. But you were talking about the board level knowledge of security in the organization. Talk about that change. That's occurred in the last >>Decade. You know, boards are all about governance, right? Making sure everybody's doing the right things. And they've kind of had a haul pass on cybersecurity for a long time. Like we expect them to be great at financial diligence, they understand the financials of an organization. You're gonna see a maturity, I think in cybersecurity where I think board members all know, Hey, there's risk out there. And we're on our own to kind of defend ourselves from it, but they don't know how to quantify it. And they don't know how to express it. So bottom line boards are interested in cyber and we just have to mature as an industry to give them the tools they need to measure it appropriately. >>Sean, one of the things I wanted to ask you. So Steven Schmidt, I noticed changed his title from CISOs chief inf information security officer, the chief security officer. Your title is chief security officer. Is that a nuance that has meaning to you or is it just less acronym? >>It depends on the organization that you're in, in our organization, the chief security officer owns all risks. So I have a CISO that comes underneath me. Yep. And I've got a security folks that are handling our facilities, our personnel, those sorts of things, all, all of our offices around the globe. So it's all things security. One of the things that we've found and Kevin and I were actually talking about this earlier is this intersection between the physical world and the virtual world. And if you've got adversaries that want gain access to your organization, they might do it remotely by trying to hack into your network. But they also might try to get one of your employees to take an action on their behalf, or they might try to get somebody hired into your company to take some nefarious acts. So from a security perspective, it's about building an envelope around all things valuable and then working it in a collaborative way. So there's a lot of interface, a lot of interaction and a lot of value in putting those things together. And, >>And you're also president of the services division. Is that a P and L role or >>It is, we have a it's P P O P and L. And we have an entire organization that's doing incident response and it's a lot of the work that we're doing with, with Kevin's folks now. So I've got both of those hats today. >>Okay. So self-funded so in a way, okay. Where are companies most at risk today? >>Huh? You wanna go on that one first? Sean, you talk fast than me. So it's bigger bang for the buck. If >>You >>Talk, you know, when I, when I think about, about companies in terms of, of their risk, it's a lot of it has to do with the expansion of the network. Companies are adding new applications, new devices, they're expanding into new areas. There are new technologies that are being developed every day and that are being embraced every day. And all of those technologies, all of those applications, all of that hardware is susceptible to attack. Adversaries are looking for the vulnerabilities they can exploit. And I think just kind of that sprawl is something that is, is disconcerting to me from a security perspective, we need to know where our assets are, where the vulnerabilities lie, how do we plug the holes? And having that visibility is really critical to ensure that you're you're in, involved in mitigating that, that new architecture, >>Anything you >>Did. Yeah. I would like when I, so I can just tell you what I'm hearing from CISOs out there. They're worried about identity, the lateral movement. That's been kind of part of every impactful breach. So in identity's kind of top three of mind, I would say zero trust, whatever that means. And we all have our own definitions of migration to zero trust and supply chain risk. You know, whether they're the supplier, they wanna make sure they can prove to their customers, they have great security practices. Or if they're a consumer of a supply chain, you need to understand who's in their supply chain. What are their dependencies? How secure are they? Those are just three topics that come up all the time. >>As we extend, you know, talking about XDR the X being extend. Do you see physical security as something that's being extended into? Or is it, or is it already kind of readily accepted that physical security goes hand in hand with information security? >>I, I don't think a lot of people think that way there certainly are some and Dave mentions Amazon and Steve Schmidt as a CSO, right? There's a CSO that works for him as well. CJ's clear integration. There's an intelligence component to that. And I think that there are certain organizations that are starting to recognize and understand that when we say there's no real perimeter, it, it expands the network expands into the physical space. And if you're not protecting that, you know, if you don't protect the, the server room and somebody can actually walk in the doors unlocked, you've got a vulnerability that might be exploited. So I think to, to recognize the value of that integration from a security perspective, to be holistic and for organizations to adopt a security first philosophy that all the employees recognize they're, they're the, the first line of defense. Oftentimes not just from a fish, but by somebody catching up with them and handing 'em a thumb drive, Hey, can you take a look at this document? For me, that's a potential vulnerability as well. So those things need to be integrated. >>I thought the most interesting part of the keynote this morning is when George asked you about election security and you immediately went to the election infrastructure. I was like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But then I was so happy to hear you. You went to the disinformation, I learned something there about your monitoring, the network effects. Sure. And, and actually there's a career stream around that. Right. The reason I had so years ago I interviewed was like, this was 2016, Robert Gates. Okay. Former defense. And I, I said, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber can't we go on the offense. He said, wait a minute, we have the most to lose. Right. But, but you gave an example where you can identify the bots. Like let's say there's disinformation out there. You could actually use bots in a positive way to disseminate the, the truth in theory. Good. Is, is that something that's actually happening >>Out there? Well, I think we're all still learning. You know, you can have deep fakes, both audible files or visual files, right. And images. And there's no question. The next generation, you do have to professionalize the news that you consume. And we're probably gonna have to professionalize the other side critical thinking because we are a marketplace of ideas in an open society. And it's hard to tell where's the line between someone's opinion and intentional deception, you know, and sometimes it could be the source, a foreign threat, trying to influence the hearts and minds of citizens, but there's gonna be an internal threat or domestic threat as well to people that have certain ideas and concepts that they're zealots about. >>Is it enough to, is it enough to simply expose where the information is coming from? Because, you know, look, I, I could make the case that the red Sox, right. Or a horrible baseball team, and you should never go to Fenway >>And your Yankees Jersey. >>Right. Right. So is that disinformation, is that misinformation? He'd say yes. Someone else would say no, but it would be good to know that a thousand bots from some troll farm, right. Are behind us. >>There's, it's helpful to know if something can be tied to identity or is totally anonymous. Start just there. Yeah. Yeah. You can still protect the identity over time. I think all of us, if you're gonna trust the source, you actually know the source. Right. So I do believe, and, and by the way, much longer conversation about anonymity versus privacy and then trust, right. And all three, you could spend this whole interview on, but we have to have a trustworthy internet as well. And that's not just in the tech and the security of it, but over time it could very well be how we're being manipulated as citizens and people. >>When you guys talk to customers and, and peers, when somebody gets breached, what's the number one thing that you hear that they wished they'd done that they didn't. >>I think we talked about this earlier, and I think identity is something that we're talking about here. How are you, how are you protecting your assets? How do you know who's authorized to have access? How do you contain the, the access that they have? And the, the area we see with, with these malware free attacks, where adversaries are using the existing capabilities, the operating system to move laterally through the network. I mean, Kevin's folks, my folks, when we respond to an incident, it's about looking at that lateral movement to try and get a full understanding of where the adversary's been, where they're going, what they're doing, and to try to, to find a root cause analysis. And it really is a, a critical part. >>So part of the reason I was asking you about, was it a P and L cuz you, you wear two hats, right? You've got revenue generation on one side and then you've got you protect, you know, the company and you've got peer relationships. So the reason I bring this up is I felt like when stucks net occurred, there was a lot of lip service around, Hey, we, as an industry are gonna work together. And then what you saw was a lot of attempts to monetize, you know, private data, sell private reports and things of that nature you were referencing today, Kevin, that you think the industry's doing a much better job of, of collaboration. Is it, can you talk about that and maybe give some examples? >>Absolutely. I mean, you know, I lived through it as a victim of a breach couple years ago. If you see something new and novel, I, I just can't imagine you getting away with keeping it a secret. I mean, I would even go, what are you doing? Harboring that if you have it, that doesn't mean you tell the whole world, you don't come on your show and say, Hey, we got something new novel, everybody panic, you start contacting the people that are most germane to fixing the problem before you tell the world. So if I see something that's new in novel, certainly con Sean and the team at CrowdStrike saying, Hey, there's because they protect so many endpoints and they defend nations and you gotta get to Microsoft. You have to talk to pan. You have to get to the companies that have a large capability to do shields up. And I think you do that immediately. You can't sit on new and novel. You get to the vendor where the vulnerability is, all these things have to happen at a great rate to speak. >>So you guys probably won't comment, but I'm betting dollars to donuts. This Uber lapses hack you guys knew about. >>I turned to you. >>No comment. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that the, that wasn't novel. My point being, let me, let me ask it in a more generic fashion that you can maybe comment you you're. I think you're my, my inference is we're com the industry is compressing the time between a zero day and a fix. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like dramatically. >>Yes. Oh, awareness of it and AIX. Yes. Yeah. >>Okay. Yeah. And a lot of the hacks that we see as lay people in the media you've known about for quite some time, is that fair or no, not necessarily. >>It's, you know, it's harder to handle an intrusion quietly and discreetly these days, especially with what you're up against and, and most CEOs, by the way, their intent isn't, let's handle it quietly and discreetly it's what do we do about it? And what's the right way to handle it. And they wanna inform their customers and they wanna inform people that might be impacted. I wouldn't say we know it all that far ahead of time >>And, and depends. And, and I, I think companies don't know it. Yeah. Companies don't know they've been breached for weeks or months or years in some cases. Right. Which talks about a couple things, first of all, some of the sophistication of the adversaries, but it also talks about the inability of companies to often detect this type of activity when we're brought in. It's typically very quickly after the company finds out because they recognize they've gotta take action. They've got liability, they've got brand protection. There, whole sorts of, of things they need to take care of. And we're brought in it may or may not be, become public, but >>CrowdStrike was founded on the premise that the unstoppable breach is a myth. Now that's a, that's a bold sort of vision. We're not there yet, obviously. And a and a, and a, a CSO can't, you know, accept that. Right. You've gotta always be vigilant, but is that something that is, that we're gonna actually see manifest, you know, in any, any time in the near term? I mean, thinking about the Falcon platform, you guys are users of that. I don't know if that is part of the answer, but part of it's technology, but without the cultural aspects, the people side of things, you're never gonna get there. >>I can tell you, I started Maning in 2004 at the premise security breaches are inevitable, far less marketable. Yeah. You know, stop breaches. >>So >>Yeah. I, I think you have to learn how to manage this, right? It's like healthcare, you're not gonna stop every disease, but there's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate the consequences of those things. The same thing with network security, there's a lot of actions that organizations can take to help protect them in a way that allows them to live and, and operate in a, in a, a strong position. If companies are lackadaisical that irresponsible, they don't care. Those are companies that are gonna suffer. But I think you can manage this if you're using the right technology, the right people, you've got the right philosophy security first >>In, in the culture. >>Well, I can tell you very quickly, three reasons why people think, why is there an intrusion? It should just go away. Well, wherever money goes, crime follows. We still have crime. So you're still gonna have intrusions, whether it has to be someone on the inside or faulty software and people being paid the right faulty software, you're gonna have war. That's gonna create war in the cyber domain. So information warriors are gonna try to have intrusions to get to command and control. So wherever you have command and control, you'll have a war fighter. And then wherever you have information, you have ESP Espino. So you're gonna have people trying to break in at all times. >>And, and to tie that up because everything Kevin said is absolutely right. And what he just said at the very end was people, there are human beings that are on the other side of every single attack. And think about this until you physically get physically get to the people that are doing it and stop them. Yes, this will go on forever because you can block them, but they're gonna move and you can block them again. They're gonna move their objectives. Don't change because the information you have, whether it's financial information, intellectual property, strategic military information, that's still there. They will always come at it, which is where that physical component comes in. If you're able to block well enough and they can't get you remotely, they might send somebody in. Well, >>I, in the keynote, I, I'm not kidding. I'm looking around the room and I'm thinking there's at least one person here that is here primarily to gather intelligence, to help them defeat. What's being talked about here. >>Well, you said it's, >>It's kind >>Of creepy. You said the adversary is, is very well equipped and motivated. Why do you Rob banks? Well, that's where the money is, but it's more than that. Now with state sponsored terrorism and, you know, exfiltration of state secrets, I mean, there's, it's high stake's games. You got, this >>Has become a tool of nation states in terms from a political perspective, from a military perspective, if you look at what happened with Ukraine and Russia, all the work that was done in advanced by the Russians to soften up the Ukrainians, not just collection of intelligence, not just denial of services, but then disruptive attacks to change the entire complexity of the battlefield. This, this is a, an area that's never going away. It's becoming ingrained in our lives. And it's gonna be utilized for nefarious acts for many, many decades to come. >>I mean, you're right, Sean, we're seeing the future of war right before us is, is there's. There is going to be, there is a cyber component now in war, >>I think it signals the cyber component signals the silent intention of nations period, the silent projection of power probably before you see kinetics. >>And this is where gates says we have a lot more to lose as a country. So it's hard for us to go on the offense. We have to be very careful about our offensive capabilities because >>Of one of the things that, that we do need to, to do though, is we need to define what the red lines are to adversaries. Because when you talk about human beings, you've gotta put a deterrent in place so that if the adversaries know that if you cross this line, this is what the response is going to be. It's the way things were done during nuclear proliferation, right? Right. During the cold war, here's what the actions are gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna be mutual destruction and you can't do it. And we didn't have a nuclear war. We're at a point now where adversaries are pushing the envelope constantly, where they're turning off the lights in certain countries where they're taking actions that are, are quite detrimental to the host governments and those red lines have to be very clear, very clearly defined and acted upon if they're >>Crossed as security experts. Can you always tie that signature back to say a particular country or a particular group? >>Absolutely. 100% every >>Time I know. Yeah. No, it it's. It's a great question. You, you need to get attribution right. To get to deterrence, right. And without attribution, where do you proportionate respond to whatever act you're responding to? So attribution's critical. Both our companies work hard at doing it and it, and that's why I think you're not gonna see too many false flag operations in cyberspace, but when you do and they're well crafted or one nation masquerades is another, it, it, it's one of the last rules of the playground I haven't seen broken yet. And that that'll be an unfortunate day. >>Yeah. Because that mutually assure destruction, a death spot like Putin can say, well, it wasn't wasn't me. Right. So, and ironically, >>It's human intelligence, right. That ultimately is gonna be the only way to uncover >>That human intelligence is a big component. >>For sure. Right. And, and David, like when you go back to, you were referring to Robert Gates, it's the asymmetry of cyberspace, right? One person in one nation. That's not a control by asset could still do an act. And it, it just adds to the complexity of, we have attribution it's from that nation, but was it in order? Was it done on behalf of that nation? Very complicated. >>So this is an industry of superheroes. Thank you guys for all you do and appreciate you coming on the cube. Wow. >>I love your Cape. >>Thank all right. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave ante be right back from Falcon 22 from the area you watching the cue.

hello and welcome to this special cube conversation i'm dave nicholson and this is part of our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 i have two very special guests with me and we are going to talk about the topic of security uh i have sunil potti who is vice president and general manager of google cloud security uh who in a previous life had senior leadership roles at nutanix and citrix along with lior div who is the ceo and co-founder of cyber reason lior was formerly a commander in the much famed unit 8200 uh part of the israeli defense forces uh where he was actually a medal of honor recipient uh very uh honored to have him here this morning sunil and lior welcome to the cube sunil welcome back to the cube yeah great to be here david and and to be in the presence of a medal of honor recipient by the way a good friend of mine leor so be here well good to have both of you here so uh i'm the kind of person who likes my dessert before my uh before my entree so why don't we just get right to it you're the two of you are here to announce something very very significant uh in the field of security uh sunil do you want to start us out what are we here to talk about yeah i mean i think maybe uh you know just to set this context um as as many of you know about a decade ago a nation's sponsored attack you know actually got into google plus a whole bunch of tech companies you know the project aurora was quite uh you know infamous for a certain period of time and actually google realized almost a decade ago that look you know security can't just be a side thing it has to be the primary thing including one of the co-founders becoming for lack of a better word the chief security officer for a while but one of the key takeaways from that whole incident was that look you have to be able to detect everything and trust nothing and and the underpinning for at least one of them led to this whole zero trust architectures that everybody now knows about but the other part which is not as popular at least in industry vernacular but in many ways equally important and some ways more important is the fact that you need to be able to detect everything so that you can actually respond and that led to the formation of you know a project internal to google to actually say that look let's democratize uh storage and make sure that nobody has to pay for capturing security events and that led to the formation of this uh new industry concept called a security data lake in chronicle was born and then as we started evolving that over into the enterprise segment partnering with you know cyber reason on one hand created a one plus one equals three synergy between say the presence around what do you detect from the end point but also generally just so happens that as lior will tell you the cyber reason technology happens to start with endpoint but it's actually the core tech is around detecting events but doing it in a smart way to actually respond to them in much more of a contextual manner but beyond just that you know synergy between uh you know a world-class planet scale you know security data like forming the foundation and integrating you know in a much more cohesive way with uh cyber reasons detection response offering the spirit was actually that this is the first step of a long journey to really hit the reset button in terms of going from reactive mode of security to a proactive mode of security especially in a nation-state-sponsored attack vector so maybe leo you can speak a few minutes on that as well absolutely so um as you said i'm coming from a background of uh nation state hacking so for us at cyberism it's uh not is foreign uh what the chinese are doing uh on a daily basis and the growing uh ransomware cartel that's happening right now in russia um when we looked at it we said then uh cyberism is very famous by our endpoint detection and response capability but when we establish cyber reason we establish the cyberism on a core or almost fundamental idea of finding malicious operation we call it the male idea so basically instead of looking for alerts or instead of looking for just pieces of data we want to find the hackers we want to find the attack we want to be able to tell basically the full story of what's going on uh in order to do that we build the inside cyberism basically from day one the ability to analyze any data in real time in order to stitch it into the story of the male the malicious operation but what we realize very quickly that while our solution can process more than 27 trillion events a week we cannot feed it fast enough just from end point and we are kind of blind when it comes to the rest of the attack surface so we were looking uh to be honest quite a while for the best technology that can feed this engine and to as sunil said the one plus one equal three or four or five to be able to fight against those hackers so in this journey uh we we found basically chronicle and the combination of the scale that chronicle bringing the ability to feed the engine and together basically to be able to find those hackers in real time and real time is very very important and then to response to those type of attack so basically what is uh exciting here we created a solution that is five times faster than any solution that exists right now in the market and most importantly it enables us to reverse the atmospheric advantage and basically to find them and to push them out so we're moving from hey just to tell you a story to actually prevent hackers to being in your environment so leor can you i want to double click on that just just a little bit um can you give give us a kind of a concrete example of this difference between simply receiving alerts and uh and actually um you know taking taking uh uh correlating creating correlations and uh and actually creating actionable proactive intelligence can you give us an example of that working in in the real world yeah absolutely we can start from a simple example of ransomware by the time that i will tell you that there is a ransomware your environment and i will send an alert uh it will be five computers that are encrypted and by the time that you gonna look at the alert it's gonna be five thousand uh basically machines that are encrypted and by the time that you will do something it's going to be already too little too late and this is just a simple example so preventing that thing from happening this is critical and very timely manner in order to prevent the damage of ransomware but if you go aside from ransomware and you look for example of the attack like solarwind basically the purpose of this attack was not to create damage it was espionage the russian wanted to collect data on our government and this is kind of uh the main purpose that they did this attack so the ability to be able to say hey right now there is a penetration this is the step that they are doing and there is five ways to push them out of the environment and actually doing it this is something that today it's done manually and with the power of chronicle and cyberism we can do it automatically and that's the massive difference sunil are there specific industries that should be really interested in this or is this a is this a broad set of folks that should be impacted no you know in some ways uh you know the the the saying these days to learn's point on ransomware is that you know if if a customer or an enterprise has a reasonable top-line revenue you're a target you know you're a target to some extent so in that sense especially given that this has moved from pure espionage or you know whether it be you know government oriented or industrial espionage to a financial fraud then at that point in time it applies to pretty much a wide gamut of industries not just financial services or you know critical infrastructure companies like oil and gas pipeline or whatever it could be like any company that has any sort of ip that they feel drives their top line business is now a target for such attacks so when you talk about the idea of partnership and creating something out of a collaboration what's the meat behind this what what what do you what are you guys doing beyond saying you know hey sunil lior these guys really like each other and they respect what the other is doing what's going on behind the scenes what are you actually implementing here moving forward so every partnership is starting with love so it's good [Laughter] but then it need to translate to to really kind of pure value to our customers and pure value coming from a deep integration when it's come to the product so basically uh what will happen is every piece of data that we can collect at cyber is in uh from endpoint any piece of data that the chronicle can collect from any log that exists in the world so basically this is kind of covering the whole attack surface so first we have access to every piece of information across the full attack surface then the main question is okay once you collect all this data what you're gonna do with it and most of companies or all the companies today they don't have an answer they're saying oh we're gonna issue an alert and we hope that there is a smart person behind the keyboard that can understand what just happened and make a decision and with this partnership and with this integration basically we're not asking and outsourcing the question what to do to the user we're giving them the answer we're telling them hey this is the story of the attack this is all the pieces that's going on right now and in most cases we're gonna say hey and by the way we just stopped it so you can prevent it from the future when will people be able to leverage this capability in an integrated way and and and by the way restate how this is going to market as an integrated solution what is what is the what is what are we going to call this moving forward so basically this is the cyber reason xdr uh powered by chronicle and we are very very um uh happy about it yeah and i think just to add to that i would say look the the meta strategy here and the way it'll manifest is in this offering that comes out in early 2022 um is that if you think about it today you know a classical quote-unquote security pipeline is to detect you know analyze and then respond obviously you know just just doing those three in a good way is hard doing it in real time at scale is even harder so just that itself was where cyber reason and chronicle would add real value where we are able to collect a lot of events react in real time but a couple of things that i think that you know to your original point of why this is probably going to be a little for game changer in the years to come is we're trying to change that from detect analyze respond to detect understand and anticipate so because ultimately that's really how we can change you know the profile from being reactive in a world of ransomware or anything else to being proactive against a nation sponsored or nation's influenced attacks because they're not going to stop right so the only way to do this is to rather than just go back up the hatches is just really you know change change the profile of how you'll actually anticipate what they were probably going to do in 6 months or 12 months and so the the graph technology that powers the heart of you know cyber reason is going to be intricately woven in with the contextual information that chronicle can get so that the intermediate step is not just about analysis but it's about truly understanding the overall strategy that has been employed in the past to predict what could happen in the future so therefore then actions could be taken downstream that you can now say hey most likely this these five buckets have this kind of personal information data there's a reasonable chance that you know if they're exposed to the internet then as you create more such buckets in that project you're going to be susceptible to more ransomware attacks or some other attacks right and that's the the the kind of thinking or the transformation that we're trying to bring out with this joint office so lior uh this this concept of uh of mallops and uh cyber reason itself you weren't just born yesterday you've been you've been uh you have thousands of customers around the globe he does look like he was born i i know i know i know well you you know it used to be that the ideal candidate for ceo of a startup company was someone who dropped out of stanford i think it's getting to the point where it's people who refused admission to stanford so uh the the dawn of the 14 year old ceo it's just it's just around the corner but uh but lior do you get frustrated when you see um you know when you become aware of circumstances that would not have happened had they implemented your technology as it exists today yeah we have a for this year it was a really frustrating year that starting with solarwind if you analyze the code of solarwind and we did it but other did it as well basically the russians were checking if cyberism is installed on the machine and if we were installed on the machine they decided to stop the attack this is something that first it was a great compliment for us from you know our not friend from the other side that decided to stop the attack but on a serious note it's like we were pissed because if people were using this technology we know that they are not going to be attacked when we analyze it we realize that we have three different ways to find the solar wind hackers in a three different way so this is just one example and then the next example in the colonial pipeline hack we were the one that found darkseid as a group that we were hacking we were the first one that released a research on them and we showed how we can prevent the basically what they are doing with our technology so when you see kind of those type of just two examples and we have many of them on a daily basis we just know that we have the technology in order to do that now when we're combining uh the chronicle technology into the the technology that we already have we basically can reverse the adversary advantage this is something that you're not doing in a single day but this is something that really give power to the defenders to the communities of siso that exist kind of across the us um and i believe that if we're going to join forces and lean into this community and and basically push the solution out the ability for us to fight against those cartels specifically the ransomware cartels is going to be massive sunil this time next year when we are in uh google cloud next 2022 um are you guys going to come back on and offer up the we told you so awards because once this is actually out there and readily available the combination of chronicle and cyber reasons technology um it's going to be hard for some csos to have an excuse uh it may be it may be a uncomfortable to know that uh they could have kept the door secure uh but didn't yeah where's that bad business is that bad business to uh hand out awards for doing dumb things i don't know about uh you know a version of darwin awards probably don't make sense but but but generally speaking so i do think uh you know we're all like as citizens in this right because you know we talk about customers i mean you know alphabet and google is a customer in some ways cyber reason is a customer the cube is a customer right so i think i think the robot hitting the road a year from now will be we should we should do this where i don't know if the cube does more than two folks at the same time david but we should i mean i'm sure we'll have enough to have at least a half a dozen in in the room to kind of talk about the solution because i think the the you know as you can imagine this thing didn't materialize i mean it's been being cooked for a while between your team and our team and in fact it was inspired by feedback from some joint customers out in the market and all that good stuff so so a year from now i think the best thing would be not just having customers to talk about the solution but to really talk about that transformation from respond to anticipate and do they feel better on their security posture in a world that they know like and leo should probably spend a few minutes on this is i think we're on the tip of the sphere of this nation-state era and what we've just seen in the last few years is what maybe the nation-states have seen over two decades ago and they're going to run those playbooks on the enterprise for the next decade or so yeah leor talk about that for a minute yeah it's it's really you know just to continue the sunil thought it's it's really about finding the unknown because what's happening on the other side it's like specifically china and russia and lately we saw iran starting to gain uh power um basically their job is to become better and better and to basically innovate and create a new type of attack on a daily basis as technology has evolved so basically there is a very simple equation as we're using more technology and relying more on technology the other side is going to exploit it in order to gain more power espionage and create financial damage but it's important to say that this evolution it's not going to stop this is just the beginning and a lot of the data that was belong just to government against government fight basically linked in the past few years now criminals starting to use it as well so in a sense if you think about it what's happening right now there is basically a cold war that nobody is talking about it between kind of the giant that everybody is hacking everybody and in the crossfire we see all of those enterprises across the world it was not a surprise that um you know after the biden and putin uh meeting suddenly it was a quiet it was no ransomware for six weeks and after something changing the politics suddenly we can see a a groin kind of attack when it's come to ransomware that we know that was directed from russia in order to create pressure on the u.s economy sunil wrap us up what are your f what are what are your final thoughts and uh what's what's the what's the big takeaway here no i think you know i i think the key thing for everyone to know is look i think we are going into an era of state-sponsored uh not espionage as much as threat vectors that affect every business and so in many ways the chiefs the chief information security officer the chief risk officer in many ways the ceo and the board now have to pay attention to this topic much like they paid attention to mobile 15 years ago as a transformation thing or maybe cloud 10 years ago i think cyber has been one of those it's sort of like the wireless error david like it existed in the 90s but didn't really break around until iphone hit or the world of consumerization really took off right and i think we're at the tip of the spear of that cyber really becoming like the era of mobile for 15 years ago and so i think that's the if there's like a big takeaway i think yes there's lots of solutions the good news is great innovations are coming through companies like cyber reason working with you know proven providers like google and so forth and so there's a lot of like support in the ecosystem but i think if there was one takeaway that was that everybody should just be ready internalized we don't have to be paranoid about it but we anticipate that this is going to be a long game that we'll have to play together well with that uh taking off my journalist hat for a moment and putting on my citizen hat uh it's reassuring to know that we have really smart people working on this uh because when we talk about critical infrastructure control systems and things like that being under threat um that's more significant than simply having your social security number stolen in a in a data breach so um with that uh i'd like to thank you sunil leor thank you so much for joining us on this special cube conversation this is dave nicholson signing off from our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 [Music] you

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

absolutely I think if I were to net it out Jeff what I'm sensing is there is a whole movement to shift security left which is this whole idea of IT stepping up as the first line of defense reduce cyber exposure take care of patching multi-factor authentication reduce their tax surface intrinsic security right so you know DevOps active ops take care of it right up front with all the apps even get built right then there is another movement to shift things right which is take care of the new new aspects of the attack surface right what the hackers always take advantage of of other areas where in a sense we are unprepared and for a long time they've seen us being unprepared in terms of reducing the attack surface and then they go after the new aspects of the tak surface and what are those IT I ot ot data as as an attack surface and the edge right so so these are areas where there's a lot of activity a lot of innovation you know on the on the air on the floor here if you walk the corners shifting left shifting right as in all the new aspects of the tax F is I'm seeing a lot of conversations a lot of innovation in that area I think it also boils down to real-world examples we've been really understand the demographics that we're working for I think today it's the first time really in history that we have four generations working side-by-side in the workforce so we have to understand that people learn differently training should be adjusted to the type of people that we're teaching but phishing doesn't just oil down to clicking on links phishing teaches also it boils down to tricking somebody getting someone's trust and it can come in different forms for example think of social media how do people connect we're connecting across social media on many different platforms I'll give a very easy example LinkedIn LinkedIn is for business have form we're all connected on LinkedIn why we connect on LinkedIn because that's a social platform that people feel safe on because we're able to connect to each other in a business form I want to think of the person who's getting the first job with an organization their first job in maybe their project manager and they're working for Bank a excited to be working for Bank a hey I'm gonna list all the projects I'm working for so here's now my resume on LinkedIn I'm working on project ABCD and this is my manager I report to perfect there's some information sitting there on LinkedIn now what else I will tell you is that you might have somebody who's looking to get into that Bank what will they do let's look for the lowest hanging fruit who this new project manager oh I see they're working on these projects and they're reporting in to someone well I'm not a project manager I'm a senior project manager from a competing bank I'm gonna befriend them and tell them that I'm really excited about the work they're doing here there's social engineering their way into their friendship into the good graces into their trust once done the video becomes a trusted source people share information freely so people are putting too much information out there on social trusting too easily opening the door for more than a phishing attack and things are just rapidly going out of control right so my co-founder and I both came from the world of being practitioners and we saw how limited the space wasn't actually changing human behavior I was given some animated powerpoints that use this to keep the Russians out of your Network which is a practical joke unless your job is on the line I took a huge step back and I said there are other fields that have figured this out behavioral science being one of them they use positive reinforcement gamification marketing and advertisement has figured out how to engage this human element just look around the RSA floor and there are so many learnings of how we make decisions as human beings that can be applied into changing people's behaviors and security so that's what we did adventure so this is my first early stage company we're still seeking series a we're a young company but our mantras we are the data value company so they have had this very robust analytics engine that goes into the heart of data I can track it and map it and make it beautiful and Along Came McNeely who actually sits on our board Oh does he and they said we need someone who's this week it's all happening so they asked Scott McNealy who is the craziest person in privacy and data that you know and he said oh my god get the done any woman so they got the den of a woman and that's what I do now so I'm taking this analytics value engine I'm pointing it to the board as I've always said Grace Hopper said data value and data risk has to be on the corporate balance sheet and so that's what we're building is a data balance sheet for everyone to use to actually value data for me it starts with technology that takes look we've only got so many security practitioners in the company actually defend your email example we've got to defend every user from those kinds of problems and so how do I find technology solutions that help take that load off the security practitioners so they can focus on the niche examples that are really really well-crafted emails and and and help take that load off the user because users just you're not going to be able to handle that right it's not fair to ask them and like you said it was just poorly timed that helps protect it so how do we help make sure that we're taking that technology load off identify the threats in advance and and protect them and so I think one of the biggest things that Chris and I talk a lot about is how do our solutions help make it easier for people to secure themselves instead of just providing only a technology technology advantage so the virtual analyst is able to sit on premises so it's localized learning collector has to understand the nature of those strats collect to be able to look at the needles of the needles if you will make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that right so it's really an assist tool that a network in min or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time so we have this we call it a thread research group within the company and their job is to take all the data from the sensors we have I mean we have we look at about 25 petabytes of data every day all our solutions are cloud solutions as well as on forum so we get the benefit of basically seeing all the data's that are hitting our customers every day I mean we block about 1 million attacks every minutes like every minute 1 billion attacks every minute minute right we protect over 3 million databases and you know we've mitigated some of the largest DDoS attacks that's ever been reported so we have a lot of date right that we're seen and the interesting thing is that you're right we are having to always we're using that threat research data to see what's happening how the threat landscape is changing therefore guiding us on how we need to augment and add to our products to prevent that but interestingly we're also consuming AI and machine learning as well on our products because we're able to use those solutions to actually do a lot of attack analytics and do a lot of predictive and research for our customers that can kind of guide them about you know where things are happening because what's happening is that before a lot of the tacks were just sort of fast and furious now we're seeing a pattern towards snow snow and continuous if that makes sense we're seeing all these patterns and threats coming in so we're fighting against those technologies like AI Barossa using those technologies to help us soon you know decide where we need to continue to add capabilities to stop it you know the whole bad box thing wasn't a problem right a number of years ago and so it's it's ever-changing your world which frankly speaking makes it an interesting place to be yes who wants to be in a static in a boring place right well I mean we do you're a good package or a bad package you have to traverse the network to be interesting we've all you know put our phones in airplane mode at blackhat or events like that but we don't want to be on it they're really boring when they're offline but they're also really boring too attackers when they're offline as soon as you turn them on you have a problem or could have a problem but as things traverse the network what better place to see who and what's on your network and on the gear and end of the day we're able to provide that visibility we're able to provide that enforcement so as you mentioned 2020 is now the year of awareness for us so the threat aware network we're able to do things like look at encrypted traffic do heuristics and analysis to figure out should that even be on my network because as you bring it into a network and you have to decrypt it a there's privacy concerns of that in these times but also it's computationally expensive to do that so it becomes a challenge from a both a financial perspective as well as a compliance perspective so we're helping solve s even kind of offset that traffic and be able to ensure your network secure so when we started developing our cyber recovery solution about five years ago we used the NIST cybersecurity framework which is a very well known standard that defines really five pillars of how organizations can think about building a cyber resilience strategy a cyber resilience strategy really encompasses everything from perimeter threat detection and response all the way through incident response after an attack and everything that happens in between protecting the data and recovering the data right and critical systems so I think of cyber resilience is that holistic strategy of protecting an organization and its data from a cyberattack yeah I think the human element is the hardest part you know in mind of this conference and its theme the human element the hardest part about this job is that it's not just mechanical issues and routing issues and networking issues but is about dealing with all types of humans innocent humans that do strange and bad things unknowingly and it's in malicious people who do very bad things that is by design and so the research suggests that no matter what we do in security awareness training some four percent of our employee base will continually bail security awareness that's what we fished and actively and so one of the things that we need to do is use automation and intelligence so that you can comb through all of that data and make a better informed decision about what risks are going to mitigate right and for this four percent are habitually abusing the system and can't be retrained well you can isolate them right and make sure that they're separated and then they're not able to to do things that may harm the organization you

>>Bye from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hey, welcome back. Everyone's keeps coverage here in San Francisco at the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm John, your host, as cybersecurity goes to the next generation as the new cloud scale, cyber threats are out there, the real impact a company's business and society will be determined by the industry. This technology and the people that a cube alumni here, caramel Jaffer, SVP, senior vice president of strategy and corporate development for iron net. Welcome back. Thanks to Shawn. Good to be here. Thanks for having so iron net FC general Keith Alexander and you got to know new CEO of there. Phil Welsh scaler and duo knows how to scale up a company. He's right. Iron is doing really well. The iron dome, the vision of collaboration and signaling. Congratulations on your success. What's a quick update? >> Well look, I mean, you know, we have now built the capability to share information across multiple companies, multiple industries with the government in real time at machine speed. >>Really bringing people together, not just creating collected security or clip to defense, but also collaborating real time to defend one another. So you're able to divide and conquer Goliath, the enemy the same way they come after you and beat them at their own game. >> So this is the classic case of offense defense. Most corporations are playing defense, whack-a-mole, redundant, not a lot of efficiencies, a lot of burnout. Exactly. Not a lot of collaboration, but everyone's talking about the who the attackers are and collaborating like a team. Right? And you guys talk about this mission. Exactly. This is really the new way to do it. It has, the only way it works, >> it is. And you know, you see kids doing it out there when they're playing Fortnite, right? They're collaborating in real time across networks, uh, to, you know, to play a game, right? You can imagine that same construct when it comes to cyber defense, right? >>There's no reason why one big company, a second big company in a small company can't work together to identify all the threats, see that common threat landscape, and then take action on it. Trusting one another to take down the pieces they have folk to focus on and ultimately winning the battle. There's no other way a single company is gonna be able defend itself against a huge decency that has virtually unlimited resources and virtually unlimited human capital. And you've got to come together, defend across multiple industries, uh, collectively and collaboratively. >> Do you mean, we talked about this last time and I want to revisit this and I think it's super important. I think it's the most important story that's not really being talked about in the industry. And that is that we were talking last time about the government protects businesses. If someone dropped troops on the ground in your neighborhood, the government would protect you digitally. >>That's not happening. So there's really no protection for businesses. Do they build their own militia? Do they build their own army? Who was going to, who's going to be their heat shield? So this is a big conversation and a big, it brings a question. The role of the government. We're going to need a digital air force. We're going to need a digital army, Navy, Navy seals. We need to have that force, and this has to be a policy issue, but in the short term, businesses and individuals are sitting out there being attacked by sophisticated mission-based teams of hackers and nation States, right? Either camouflaging or hiding, but attacking still. This is a huge issue. What's going on? Are people talking about this in D C well, >> John, look not enough. People are talking about it, right? And forget DC. We need to be talking about here, out here in the Silicon Valley with all these companies here at the RSA floor and bring up the things you're bringing up because this is a real problem we're facing as a nation. >>The Russians aren't coming after one company, one state. They're coming after our entire election infrastructure. They're coming after us as a nation. The Chinese maybe come after one company at a time, but their goal is to take our electoral properties, a nation, repurpose it back home. And when the economic game, right, the Iranians, the North Koreans, they're not focused on individual actors, but they are coming after individual actors. We can't defend against those things. One man, one woman, one company on an Island, one, one agency, one state. We've got to come together collectively, right? Work state with other States, right? If we can defend against the Russians, California might be really good at it. Rhode Island, small States can be real hard, defends against the Russians, but if California, Rhode Island come together, here's the threats. I see. Here's what it's. You see share information, that's great. Then we collaborate on the defense and work together. >>You take these threats, I'll take those threats and now we're working as a team, like you said earlier, like those kids do when they're playing fortnight and now we're changing the game. Now we're really fighting the real fight. >> You know, when I hear general Keith Alexander talking about his vision with iron net and what you guys are doing, I'm inspired because it's simply put, we have a mission to protect our nation, our people, and a good businesses, and he puts it into kind of military, military terms, but in reality, it's a simple concept. Yeah, we're being attacked, defend and attack back. Just basic stuff. But to make it work as the sharing. So I got to ask you, I'm first of all, I love the, I love what he has, his vision. I love what you guys are doing. How real are we? What's the progression? >>Where are we on the progress bar of that vision? Well, you know, a lot's changed to the last year and a half alone, right? The threats gotten a lot, a lot more real to everybody, right? Used to be the industry would say to us, yeah, we want to share with the government, but we want something back for, right. We want them to show us some signal to today. Industry is like, look, the Chinese are crushing us out there, right? We can beat them at a, at some level, but we really need the governor to go do its job too. So we'll give you the information we have on, on an anonymized basis. You do your thing. We're going to keep defending ourselves and if you can give us something back, that's great. So we've now stood up in real time of DHS. We're sharing with them huge amounts of data about what we're seeing across six of the top 10 energy companies, some of the biggest banks, some of the biggest healthcare companies in the country. >>Right? In real time with DHS and more to come on that more to come with other government agencies and more to come with some our partners across the globe, right? Partners like those in Japan, Singapore, Eastern Europe, right? Our allies in the middle East, they're all the four lenses threat. We can bring their better capability. They can help us see what's coming at us in the future because as those enemies out there testing the weapons in those local areas. I want to get your thoughts on the capital markets because obviously financing is critical and you're seeing successful venture capital formulas like forge point really specialized funds on cyber but not classic industry formation sectors. Like it's not just security industry are taking a much more broader view because there's a policy implication is that organizational behavior, this technology up and down the stack. So it's a much broad investment thesis. >>What's your view of that? Because as you do, you see that as a formula and if so, what is this new aperture or this new lens of investing to be successful in funding? Companies will look, it's really important what companies like forge point are doing. Venture capital funds, right? Don Dixon, Alberta Pez will land. They're really innovating here. They've created a largest cybersecurity focused fund. They just closed the recently in the world, right? And so they really focus on this industry. Partners like, Kleiner Perkins, Ted Schlein, Andrea are doing really great work in this area. Also really important capital formation, right? And let's not forget other funds. Ron Gula, right? The founder of tenable started his own fund out there in DC, in the DMV area. There's a lot of innovation happening this country and the funding on it's critical. Now look, the reality is the easy money's not going to be here forever, right? >>It's the question is what comes when that inevitable step back. We don't. Nobody likes to talk about it. I said the guy who who bets on the other side of the craps game in Vegas, right? You don't wanna be that guy, but let's be real. I mean that day will eventually come. And the question is how do you bring some of these things together, right? Bring these various pieces together to really create long term strategies, right? And that's I think what's really innovative about what Don and Alberto are doing is they're building portfolio companies across a range of areas to create sort of an end to end capability, right? Andrea is doing things like that. Ted's doing stuff like that. It's a, that's really innovation. The VC market, right? And we're seeing increased collaboration VC to PE. It's looking a lot more similar, right? And now we're seeing innovative vehicles like stacks that are taking some of these public sort of the reverse manner, right? >>There's a lot of interests. I've had to be there with Hank Thomas, the guys chief cyber wrenches. So a lot of really cool stuff going on in the financing world. Opportunities for young, smart entrepreneurs to really move out in this field and to do it now. And money's still silver. All that hasn't come as innovation on the capital market side, which is awesome. Let's talk about the ecosystem in every single market sector that I've been over, my 30 year career has been about a successful entrepreneurship check, capital two formation of partnerships. Okay. You're on the iron net, front lines here. As part of that ecosystem, how do you see the ecosystem formula developing? Is it the same kind of model? Is it a little bit different? What's your vision of the ecosystem? Look, I mean partnerships channel, it's critical to every cyber security company. You can't scale on your own. >>You've got to do it through others, right? I was at a CrowdStrike event the other day. 91% of the revenue comes from the channel. That's an amazing number. You think about that, right? It's you look at who we're trying to talk about partnering with. We're talking about some of the big cloud players. Amazon, Microsoft, right? Google, right on the, on the vendor side. Pardon me? Splunk crashes, so these big players, right? We want to build with them, right? We want to work with them because there's a story to tell here, right? When we were together, the AECOS through self is defendant stronger. There's no, there's no anonymity here, right? It's all we bring a specialty, you bring specialty, you work together, you run out and go get the go get the business and make companies safer. At the end of the day, it's all about protecting the ecosystem. What about the big cloud player? >>Cause he goes two big mega trends. Obviously cloud computing and scale, right? Multi-cloud on the horizon, hybrids, kind of the bridge between single public cloud and multi-cloud and then AI you've got the biggies are generally will be multiple generations of innovation and value creation. What's your vision on the impact of the big waves that are coming? Well, look, I mean cloud computing is a rate change the world right? Today you can deploy capability and have a supercomputer in your fingertips in in minutes, right? You can also secure that in minutes because you can update it in real time. As the machine is functioning, you have a problem, take it down, throw up a new virtual machine. These are amazing innovations that are creating more and more capability out there in industry. It's game changing. We're happy, we're glad to be part of that and we ought to be helping defend that new amazing ecosystem. >>Partnering with companies like Microsoft. They didn't AWS did, you know, you know, I'm really impressed with your technical acumen. You've got a good grasp of the industry, but also, uh, you have really strong on the societal impact policy formulation side of government and business. So I want to get your thoughts for the young kids out there that are going to school, trying to make sense of the chaos that's going on in the world, whether it's DC political theater or the tech theater, big tech and in general, all of the things with coronavirus, all this stuff going on. It's a, it's a pretty crazy time, but a lot of work has to start getting done that are new problems. Yeah. What is your advice as someone who's been through the multiple waves to the young kids who have to figure out what half fatigue, what problems are out there, what things can people get their arms around to work on, to specialize in? >>What's your, what's your thoughts and expertise on that? Well, John, thanks for the question. What I really like about that question is is we're talking about what the future looks like and here's what I think the future looks like. It's all about taking risks. Tell a lot of these young kids out there today, they're worried about how the world looks right? Will America still be strong? Can we, can we get through this hard time we're going through in DC with the world challenges and what I can say is this country has never been stronger. We may have our own troubles internally, but we are risk takers and we always win. No matter how hard it gets them out of how bad it gets, right? Risk taking a study that's building the American blood. It's our founders came here taking a risk, leaving Eagle to come here and we've succeeded the last 200 years. >>There is no question in my mind that trend will continue. So the young people out there, I don't know what the future has to hold. I don't know if the new tape I was going to be, but you're going to invent it. And if you don't take the risks, we're not succeed as a nation. And that's what I think is key. You know, most people worry that if they take too many risks, they might not succeed. Right? But the reality is most people you see around at this convention, they all took risks to be here. And even when they had trouble, they got up, they dust themselves off and they won. And I believe that everybody in this country, that's what's amazing about the station is we have this opportunity to, to try, if we fail to get up again and succeed. So fail fast, fail often, and crush it. >>You know, some of the best innovations have come from times where you had the cold war, you had, um, you had times where, you know, the hippie revolution spawn the computer. So you, so you have the culture of America, which is not about regulation and stunting growth. You had risk-taking, you had entrepreneurship, but yet enough freedom for business to operate, to solve new challenges, accurate. And to me the biggest imperative in my mind is this next generation has to solve a lot of those new questions. What side of the street is the self driving cars go on? I see bike lanes in San Francisco, more congestion, more more cry. All this stuff's going on. AI could be a great enabler for that. Cyber security, a direct threat to our country and global geopolitical landscape. These are big problems. State and local governments, they're not really tech savvy. They don't really have a lot ID. >>So what do they do? How do they serve their, their constituents? You know, look John, these are really important and hard questions, but we know what has made technology so successful in America? What's made it large, successful is the governor state out of the way, right? Industry and innovators have had a chance to work together and do stuff and change the world, right? You look at California, you know, one of the reasons California is so successful and Silicon Valley is so dynamic. You can move between jobs and we don't enforce non-compete agreements, right? Because you can switch jobs and you can go to that next higher value target, right? That shows the value of, you know, innovation, creating innovation. Now there's a real tendency to say, when we're faced with challenges, well, the government has to step in and solve that problem, right? The Silicon Valley and what California's done, what technology's done is a story about the government stayed out and let innovators innovate, and that's a real opportunity for this nation. >>We've got to keep on down that path, even when it seemed like the easier answer is, come on in DC, come on in Sacramento, fix this problem for us. We have demonstrated as a country that Americans and individual are good at solve these problems. We should allow them to do that and innovate. Yeah. One of my passions is to kind of use technology and media to end communities to get to the truth faster. A lot of, um, access to smart minds out there, but young minds, young minds, uh, old minds, young minds though. It's all there. You gotta get the data out and that's going to be a big thing. That's the, one of the things that's changing is the dark arts of smear campaigns. The story of Bloomberg today, Oracle reveals funding for dark money, group biting, big tech internet accountability projects. Um, and so the classic astroturfing get the Jedi contract, Google WASU with Java. >>So articles in the middle of all this, but using them as an illustrative point. The lawyers seem to be running the kingdom right now. I know you're an attorney, so I'm recovering, recovering. I don't want to be offensive, but entrepreneurship cannot be stifled by regulation. Sarbanes Oxley slowed down a lot of the IPO shifts to the latest stage capital. So regulation, nest and every good thing. But also there's some of these little tactics out in the shadows are going to be revealed. What's the new way to get this straightened out in your mind? We'll look, in my view, the best solution for problematic speech or pragmatic people is more speech, right? Let's shine a light on it, right? If there are people doing shady stuff, let's talk about it's an outfit. Let's have it out in the open. Let's fight it out. At the end of the day, what America's really about is smart ideas. >>Winning. It's a, let's get the ideas out there. You know, we spent a lot of time, right now we're under attack by the Russians when it comes to our elections, right? We spent a lot of time harping at one another, one party versus another party. The president versus that person. This person who tells committee for zap person who tells committee. It's crazy when the real threat is from the outside. We need to get past all that noise, right? And really get to the next thing which is we're fighting a foreign entity on this front. We need to face that enemy down and stop killing each other with this nonsense and turn the lights on. I'm a big believer of if something can be exposed, you can talk about it. Why is it happening exactly right. This consequences with that reputation, et cetera. You got it. >>Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate your insight. Um, I want to just ask you one final question cause you look at, look at the industry right now. What is the most important story that people are talking about and what is the most important story that people should be talking about? Yeah. Well look, I think the one story that's out there a lot, right, is what's going on in our politics, what's going on in our elections. Um, you know, Chris Krebs at DHS has been out here this week talking a lot about the threat that our elections face and the importance about States working with one another and States working with the federal government to defend the nation when it comes to these elections in November. Right? We need to get ahead of that. Right? The reality is it's been four years since 2016 we need to do more. That's a key issue going forward. What are the Iranians North Koreans think about next? They haven't hit us recently. We know what's coming. We got to get ahead of that. I'm going to come again at a nation, depending on staff threat to your meal. Great to have you on the QSO is great insight. Thanks for coming on sharing your perspective. I'm John furrier here at RSA in San Francisco for the cube coverage. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020, San Francisco. Brought to you by, SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back everyone. CUBE coverage here in Moscone in San Francisco for RSA, 2020. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We've got a great guest here talking about cybersecurity and the impact with AI and the role of data. It's always great to have Derek Manky on Chief Security Insights Global Threat Alliances with FortiGuard Lab, part of Fortinet, FortiGuard Labs is great. Great organization. Thanks for coming on. >> It's a pleasure always to be here-- >> So you guys do a great threat report that we always cover. So it covers all the bases and it really kind of illustrates state of the art of viruses, the protection, threats, et cetera. But you're part of FortiGuard Labs. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Part of Fortinet, which is a security company, public. What is FortiGuard Labs? What do you guys do, what's your mission? >> So FortiGuard Labs has existed since day one. You can think of us as the intelligence that's baked into the product, It's one thing to have a world-class product, but you need a world-class intelligence team backing that up. We're the ones fighting those fires against cybercrime on the backend, 24/7, 365 on a per second basis. We're processing threat intelligence. We've got over 10 million attacks or processing just per minute, over a hundred billion events, in any given day that we have to sift through. We have to find out what's relevant. We have to find gaps that we might be missing detection and protection. We got to push that out to a customer base of 450,000 customers through FortiGuard services and 5 million firewalls, 5 million plus firewalls we have now. So it's vitally important. You need intelligence to be able to detect and then protect and also to respond. Know the enemy, build a security solution around that and then also be able to act quickly about it if you are under active attack. So we're doing everything from creating security controls and protections. So up to, real time updates for customers, but we're also doing playbooks. So finding out who these attackers are, why are they coming up to you. For a CSO, why does that matter? So this is all part of FortiGuard Labs. >> How many people roughly involved ? Take us a little inside the curtain here. What's going on? Personnel size, scope. >> So we're over 235. So for a network security vendor, this was the largest global SOC, that exists. Again, this is behind the curtain like you said. These are the people that are, fighting those fires every day. But it's a large team and we have experts to cover the entire attack surface. So we're looking at not just a viruses, but we're looking at as zero-day weapons, exploits and attacks, everything from cyber crime to, cyber warfare, operational technology, all these sorts of things. And of course, to do that, we need to really heavily rely on good people, but also automation and artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> You guys are walking on a tight rope there. I can only imagine how complex and stressful it is, just imagining the velocity alone. But one of the trends that's coming up here, this year at RSA and is kind of been talking about in the industry is the who? Who is the attacker because, the shifts could shift and change. You got nation states are sitting out there, they're not going to have their hands dirty on this stuff. You've got a lot of dark web activity. You've got a lot of actors out there that go by different patterns. But you guys have an aperture and visibility into a lot of this stuff. >> Absolutely. >> So, you can almost say, that's that guy. That's the actor. That's a really big part. Talk about why that's important. >> This is critically important because in the past, let's say the first generation of, threat intelligence was very flat. It was to watch. So it was just talking about here's a bad IP, here's a bad URL, here's a bad file block hit. But nowadays, obviously the attackers are very clever. These are large organizations that are run a lot of people involved. There's real world damages happening and we're talking about, you look at OT attacks that are happening now. There's, in some cases, 30, $40 million from targeted ransom attacks that are happening. These people, A, have to be brought to justice. So we need to understand the who, but we also need to be able to predict what their next move is. This is very similar to, this is what you see online or CSI. The police trynna investigate and connect the dots like, plotting the strings and the yarn on the map. This is the same thing we're doing, but on a way more advanced level. And it's very important to be able to understand who these groups are, what tools they use, what are the weapons, cyber weapons, if you will, and what's their next move potentially going to be. So there's a lot of different reasons that's important. >> Derek, I was riffing with another guest earlier today about this notion of, government protection. You've got a military troops drop on our shores and my neighborhood, the Russians drop in my neighborhood. Guess what, the police will probably come in, and, or the army should take care of it. But if I got to run a business, I got to build my own militia. There's no support out there. The government's not going to support me. I'm hacked. Damage is done. You guys are in a way providing that critical lifeline that guard or shield, if you will, for customers. And they're going to want more of it. So I've got to ask you the hard question, which is, how are you guys going to constantly be on the front edge of all this? Because at the end of the day, you're in the protection business. Threats are coming at the speed of milliseconds and nanoseconds, in memory. You need memory, you need database. You've got to have real time. It's a tsunami of attack. You guys are the front lines of this. You're the heat shield. >> Yes, absolutely. >> How do you take it to the next level? >> Yeah, so collaboration, integration, having a broad integrated platform, that's our bread and butter. This is what we do. End-to-end security. The attack surface is growing. So we have to be able to, A, be able to cover all aspects of that attack surface and again, have intelligence. So we're doing sharing through partners. We have our core intelligence network. Like I said, we're relying heavily on machine learning models. We're able to find that needle in the haystack. Like, as I said earlier, we're getting over a hundred billion potential threat events a day. We have to dissect that. We have to break it down. We have to say, is this affecting endpoint? Is this effect affecting operational technology? What vertical, how do we process it? How do we verify that this is a real threat? And then most importantly, get that out in time and speed to our customers. So I started with automation years ago, but now really the way that we're doing this is through broad platform coverage. But also machine learning models for and-- >> I want to dig into machine learning because, I love that needle in the haystack analogy, because, if you take that to the next step, you got to stack a needles now. So you find the needle in the haystack. Now you got a bunch of needles, where do you find that? You need AI, you got to have some help. But you still got the human component. So talk about how you guys are advising customers on how you're using machine learning and get that AI up and running for customers and for yourselves. >> So we're technology people. I always look at this as the stack. The stack model, the bottom of the stack, you have automation. You have layer one, layer two. That's like the basic things for, feeds, threat feeds, how we can push out, automate, integrate that. Then you have the human. So the layer seven. This is where our human experts are coming in to actually advise our customers. We're creating a threat signals with FortiGuard Labs as an example. These are bulletins that's a quick two to three page read that a CSO can pick up and say, here's what FortiGuard Labs has discovered this week. Is this relevant to my network? Do I have these protections in place. There's also that automated, and so, I refer to this as a centaur model. It's half human half machine and, the machines are driving a lot of that, the day to day mundane tasks, if you will, but also finding, collecting the needles of needles. But then ultimately we have our humans that are processing that, analyzing it, creating the higher level strategic advice. We recently, we've launched a FortiAI, product as well. This has a concept of a virtual-- >> Hold on, back up a second. What's it called? >> FortiAI. >> So it's AI components. Is it a hardware box or-- >> This is a on-premise appliance built off of five plus years of learning that we've done in the cloud to be able to identify threats and malware, understand what that malware does to a detailed level. And, where we've seen this before, where is it potentially going? How do we protect against it? Something that typically you would need, four to five headcount in your security operations center to do, we're using this as an assist to us. So that's why it's a virtual analyst. It's really a bot, if you will, something that can actually-- >> So it's an enabling opportunity for the customers. So is this virtual assistant built into the box. What does that do, virtual analyst. >> So the virtual analyst is able to, sit on premises. So it's localized learning, collect threats to understand the nature of those threats, to be able to look at the needles of the needles, if you will, make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that. So it's really an assist tool that a network admin or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time of resources. >> So, if you look at the history of like our technology industry from a personalization standpoint, AI and data, whether you're a media business, personalization is ultimately the result of good data AI. So personalization for an analyst, would be how not to screw up their job. (laughs) One level. The other one is to be proactive on being more offensive. And then third collaboration with others. So, you starting to see that kind of picture form. What's your reaction to that? >> I think it's great. There's stepping stones that we have to go through. The collaboration is not always easy. I'm very familiar with this. I mean I was, with the Cyber Threat Alliance since day one, I head up and work with our Global Threat Alliances. There's always good intentions, there's problems that can be created and obviously you have things like PII now and data privacy and all these little hurdles they have to come over. But when it works right together, this is the way to do it. It's the same thing with, you talked about the data naturally when he started building up IT stacks, you have silos of data, but ultimately those silos need to be connected from different departments. They need to integrate a collaborate. It's the same thing that we're seeing from the security front now as well. >> You guys have proven the model of FortiGuard that the more you can see, the more visibility you can see and more access to the data in real time or anytime scale, the better the opportunity. So I got to take that to the next level. What you guys are doing, congratulations. But now the customer. How do I team up with, if I'm a customer with other customers because the bad guys are teaming up. So the teaming up is now a real dynamic that companies are deploying. How are you guys looking at that? How is FortiGuard helping that? Is it through services? Is it through the products like virtual assistant? Virtual FortiAI? >> So you can think of this. I always make it an analogy to the human immune system. Artificial neural networks are built off of neural nets. If I have a problem and an infection, say on one hand, the rest of the body should be aware of that. That's collaboration from node to node. Blood cells to blood cells, if you will. It's the same thing with employees. If a network admin sees a potential problem, they should be able to go and talk to the security admin, who can go in, log into an appliance and create a proper response to that. This is what we're doing in the security fabric to empower the customer. So the customer doesn't have to always do this and have the humans actively doing those cycles. I mean, this is the integration. The orchestration is the big piece of what we're doing. So security orchestration between devices, that's taking that gap out from the human to human, walking over with a piece of paper to another or whatever it is. That's one of the key points that we're doing within the actual security fabric. >> So that's why silos is problematic. Because you can't get that impact. >> And it also creates a lag time. We have a need for speed nowadays. Threats are moving incredibly fast. I think we've talked about this on previous episodes with swarm technology, offensive automation, the weaponization of artificial intelligence. So it becomes critically important to have that quick response and silos, really create barriers of course, and make it slower to respond. >> Okay Derek, so I got to ask you, it's kind of like, I don't want to say it sounds like sports, but it's, what's the state of the art in the attack vectors coming in. What are you guys seeing as some of the best of breed tax that people should really be paying attention to? They may, may not have fortified down. What are SOCs looking at and what are security pros focused on right now in terms of the state of the art. >> So the things that keep people up at night. We follow this in our Threat Landscape Report. Obviously we just released our key four one with FortiGuard Labs. We're still seeing the same culprits. This is the same story we talked about a lot of times. Things like, it used to be a EternalBlue and now BlueKeep, these vulnerabilities that are nothing new but still pose big problems. We're still seeing that exposed on a lot of networks. Targeted ransom attacks, as I was saying earlier. We've seen the shift or evolution from ransomware from day to day, like, pay us three or $400, we'll give you access to your data back to going after targeted accounts, high revenue business streams. So, low volume, high risk. That's the trend that we're starting to see as well. And this is what I talk about for trying to find that needle in the haystack. This is again, why it's important to have eyes on that. >> Well you guys are really advanced and you guys doing great work, so congratulations. I got to ask you to kind of like, the spectrum of IT. You've got a lot of people in the high end, financial services, healthcare, they're regulated, they got all kinds of challenges. But as IT and the enterprise starts to get woke to the fact that everyone's vulnerable. I've heard people say, well, I'm good. I got a small little to manage, I'm only a hundred million dollar business. All I do is manufacturing. I don't really have any IP. So what are they going to steal? So that's kind of a naive approach. The answer is, what? Your operations and ransomware, there's a zillion ways to get taken down. How do you respond to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Going after the crown jewels, what hurts? So it might not be a patent or intellectual property. Again, the things that matter to these businesses, how they operate day to day. The obvious examples, what we just talked about with revenue streams and then there's other indirect problems too. Obviously, if that infrastructure of a legitimate organization is taken over and it's used as a botnet and an orchestrated denial-of-service attack to take down other organizations, that's going to have huge implications. >> And they won't even know it. >> Right, in terms of brand damage, has legal implications as well that happened. This is going even down to the basics with consumers, thinking that, they're not under attack, but at the end of the day, what matters to them is their identity. Identity theft. But this is on another level when it comes to things to-- >> There's all kinds of things to deal with. There's, so much more advanced on the attacker side. All right, so I got to ask you a final question. I'm a business. You're a pro. You guys are doing great work. What do I do, what's my strategy? How would you advise me? How do I get my act together? I'm working the mall every day. I'm trying my best. I'm peddling as fast as I can. I'm overloaded. What do I do? How do I go the next step? >> So look for security solutions that are the assist model like I said. There's never ever going to be a universal silver bullet to security. We all know this. But there are a lot of things that can help up to that 90%, 95% secure. So depending on the nature of the threats, having a first detection first, that's always the most important. See what's on your network. This is things where SIM technology, sandboxing technology has really come into play. Once you have those detections, how can you actually take action? So look for a integration. Really have a look at your security solutions to see if you have the integration piece. Orchestration and integration is next after detection. Finally from there having a proper channel, are there services you looked at for managed incident response as an example. Education and cyber hygiene are always key. These are free things that I push on everybody. I mean we release weekly threat intelligence briefs. We're doing our quarterly Threat Landscape Reports. We have something called threat signals. So it's FortiGuard response to breaking industry events. I think that's key-- >> Hygiene seems to come up over and over as the, that's the foundational bedrock of security. >> And then, as I said, ultimately, where we're heading with this is the AI solution model. And so that's something, again that I think-- >> One final question since it's just popped into my head. I wanted, and that last one. But I wanted to bring it up since you kind of were, we're getting at it. I know you guys are very sensitive to this one topic cause you live it every day. But the notion of time and time elapsed is a huge concern because you got to know, it's not if it's when. So the factor of time is a huge variable in all kinds of impact. Positive and negative. How do you talk about time and the notion of time elapsing. >> That's great question. So there's many ways to stage that. I'll try to simplify it. So number one, if we're talking about breaches, time is money. So the dwell time. The longer that a threat sits on a network and it's not cleaned up, the more damage is going to be done. And we think of the ransom attacks, denial-of-service, revenue streams being down. So that's the incident response problem. So time is very important to detect and respond. So that's one aspect of that. The other aspect of time is with machine learning as well. This is something that people don't always think about. They think that, artificial intelligence solutions can be popped up overnight and within a couple of weeks they're going to be accurate. It's not the case. Machines learn like humans too. It takes time to do that. It takes processing power. Anybody can get that nowadays, data, most people can get that. But time is critical to that. It's a fascinating conversation. There's many different avenues of time that we can talk about. Time to detect is also really important as well, again. >> Let's do it, let's do a whole segment on that, in our studio, I'll follow up on that. I think it's a huge topic, I hear about all the time. And since it's a little bit elusive, but it kind of focuses your energy on, wait, what's going on here? I'm not reacting. (laughs) Time's a huge issue. >> I refer to it as a latency. I mean, latency is a key issue in cybersecurity, just like it is in the stock exchange. >> I mean, one of the things I've been talking about with folks here, just kind of in fun conversation is, don't be playing defense all the time. If you have a good time latency, you going to actually be a little bit offensive. Why not take a little bit more offense. Why play defense the whole time. So again, you're starting to see this kind of mentality not being, just an IT, we've got to cover, okay, respond, no, hold on the ballgame. >> That comes back to the sports analogy again. >> Got to have a good offense. They must cross offense. Derek, thanks so much. Quick plug for you, FortiGuard, share with the folks what you guys are up to, what's new, what's the plug. >> So FortiGuard Labs, so we're continuing to expand. Obviously we're focused on, as I said, adding all of the customer protection first and foremost. But beyond that, we're doing great things in industry. So we're working actively with law enforcement, with Interpol, Cyber Threat Alliance, with The World Economic Forum and the Center for Cyber Security. There's a lot more of these collaboration, key stakeholders. You talked about the human to human before. We're really setting the pioneering of setting that world stage. I think that is, so, it's really exciting to me. It's a lot of good industry initiatives. I think it's impactful. We're going to see an impact. The whole goal is we're trying to slow the offense down, the offense being the cyber criminals. So there's more coming on that end. You're going to see a lot great, follow our blogs at fortinet.com and all-- >> Great stuff. >> great reports. >> I'm a huge believer in that the government can't protect us digitally. There's going to be protection, heat shields out there. You guys are doing a good job. It's only going to be more important than ever before. So, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming I really appreciate. >> Never a dull day as we say. >> All right, it's theCUBE's coverage here in San Francisco for RSA 2020. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco It's theCUBE. Covering RSA Conference 2020, San Francisco. Brought to you by Silicon Angled Media >> Hi everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage here at RSA Conference 2020. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE We're on the floor getting all the data, sharing it with you here, Cube coverage. Got the best new generation shift happening as cloud computing goes to the whole other level. Multi-cloud, hybrid cloud changing the game. You're seeing the companies transition from an on-premises to cloud architecture. This is forcing all the companies to change. So a new generation of security is here and we've got a great guest, so a hot start-up. Masha Sedova, co-founder of Elevate Security. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you so much for having me, John. >> So the next generation in what will be a multi-generational security paradigm, is kind of happening right now with the beginning of, we're seeing the transition, Palo Alto Networks announced earnings yesterday down 13% after hours because of the shift to the cloud. Now I think they're going to do well, they're well positioned, but it highlights this next generation security. You guys are a hot start-up, Elevate Security. What is the sea change? What is going on with security? What is this next generation paradigm about? >> Yeah, so it's interesting that you talk about this as next generation. In some ways, I see this as a two-prong move between, yes, we're moving more into the cloud but we're also going back to our roots. We're figuring out how to do asset management right, we're figuring out how to do patching right, and for the first time, we're figuring how to do the human element right. And that's what where we come in. >> You know, the disruption of these new shifts, it also kind of hits like this, the old expression, 'same wine, new bottle', all this, but it's a data problem. Security has always been a data problem, and we've seen some learnings around data. Visualization, wrangling, there's a lot of best practices around there. You guys are trying to change the security paradigm by incorporating a data-centric view with changing the behavior of the humans and the machines and kind of making it easier to manage. Could you share what you guys are doing? What's the vision for Elevate? >> Yeah, so we believe and we've seen, from our experience being practitioners, you can't change what you can't measure. If you don't have visibility, you don't know where you're going. And that's probably been one of the biggest pain-point in the security awareness space traditionally. We just roll out training and hope it works. And it doesn't, which is why human error is a huge source of our breaches. But we keep rolling out the same one-size fits all approach without wanting to measure or, being able to. So, we've decided to turn the problem on its head and we use existing data sets that most organizations who have a baseline level of maturity already have in place. Your end point protections, your DLP solutions, your proxies, your email security gateways and using that to understand what your employees are doing on the network to see if user generated incidents are getting better over time or getting worse. And using that as the instrumentation and the level of visibility into understanding how you should be orchestrating your program in this space. >> You know, that's a great point. I was just having a conversation last night at one of the cocktail parties here around RSA and we were debating on, we talk about the kind of breaches, you mentioned breaches, well there's the pure breach where I'm going to attack and penetrate the well fortified network. But then there's just human error, an S3 bucket laying open or some configuration problem. I guess it's not really a breach, it's kind of an open door so the kind of notion of a breach is multifold. How do you see that, because again, human error, insider threats or human error, these are enabling the hackers. >> Yeah >> This is not new. >> Yeah. >> How bad is the problem? >> It depends on what report you read. The biggest number I've seen so far is something like 95% of breaches have human error. But I honestly, I couldn't tell you what the 5% that don't include it because if you go far enough back, it's because a patch wasn't applied and there is a human being involved there because there is vulnerability in code, that's probably a secure coding practice when you're a development organization. Maybe it's a process that wasn't followed or even created in the first place. There's a human being at the core of every one of these breaches and, it needs to be addressed as holistically as our technologies and our processes right now in the space. >> The evolution of human intelligence augmented by machines will certainly help. >> That's it, yeah. >> I mean, I've got to ask you, obviously you're well-funded. Costanova Ventures well known in the enterprise space, Greg Sands and the team there, really strong, but you guys entered the market, why? I mean you guys, you and your founder both at Salesforce.com. Salesforce gurus doing a lot of work there. Obviously you've seen the large scale, first wave of the cloud. >> Yeah >> Why do the start-up? What was the problem statement you guys were going after? >> So, my co-founder and I both came from the world of being practitioners and we saw how limited the space was and actually changing human behavior, I was given some animated PowerPoints, said use this to keep the Russians out of your network, which is a practical joke unless your job is on the line, so I took a huge step back and I said, there are other fields that have figured this out. Behavioral science being one of them, they use positive reinforcement, gamification, marketing and advertisements have figured out how to engage the human element, just look around the RSA floor, and there's so many learnings of how we make decisions as human beings that can be applied into changing people's behaviors in security. So that's what we did. >> And what was the behavior you're trying to change? >> Yeah, so the top one's always that our attackers are getting into organizations, so, reducing phishing click-throughs an obvious one, increasing reporting rates, reducing malware infection rates, improving sensitive data handling, all of which have ties back to, as I was mentioning earlier, security data sources. So, we get to map those and use that data to then drive behavior change that's rooted in concepts like social proof, how are you doing compared to your peers? We make dinner decisions on that and Amazon buying decisions on that, why not influence security like that? >> So building some intelligence into the system, is there a particular market you're targeting? I mean, here people like to talk in segments, is there a certain market that you guys are targeting? >> Yeah, so the amazing thing about this is, and probably no surprise, the human element is a ubiquitous problem. We are in over a dozen different industries and we've seen this approach work across all of those industries because human beings make the same mistakes, no matter what kind of company they're in. We really work well with larger enterprises. We work well with larger enterprises because they tend to have the data sets that really provides insights into human behavior. >> And what's the business model you guys envision happening with your service product? >> We sell to enterprises and security, the CISO and the package as a whole, gives them the tools to have the voice internally in their organization We sell to Fortune 1000 companies, >> So it's a SAAS service? >> Yeah, SAAS service, yeah. >> And so what's the technology secret sauce? (laughing) >> Um, that's a great question but really, our expertise is understanding what information people need at what time and under what circumstances, that best changes their behavior. So we really are content diagnostic, we are much more about the engine that understands what content needs to be presented to whom and why. So that everyone is getting only the information they need, they understand why they need it and they don't need anything extra-superfluous to their... >> Okay, so I was saying on theCUBE, my last event was at, CIO's can have good days and bad days. They have good days, CISOs really have good days, many will say bad days, >> Masha: Yeah, it's a hard job. >> So how do I know I need the Elevate Solution? What problem do I have, what's in it for me? What do I get out of it? When do I know when to engage with you guys? >> I take a look at how many user generated incidents your (mumbles) responding to, and I would imagine it is a large majority of them. We've seen, while we were working at Salesforce and across our current customers, close to a 40% reduction rate in user generated incidents, which clearly correlates to time spent on much more useful things than cleaning up mistakes. It's also one of the biggest ROI's you can get for the cheapest investment. By investing a little bit in your organization now, the impact you have in your culture and investing in the future decision, the future mistakes that never get made, are actually untold, the benefit of that is untold. >> So you're really kind of coming in as a holistic, kind of a security data plane if you will, aggregating the data points, making a visualization in human component. >> You've got it. >> Now, what's the human touchpoint? Is it a dashboard? Is it notifications? Personalization? How is the benefit rendered for the customer? >> So we give security teams and CSOs a dashboard that maps their organization's strengths and weaknesses. But for every employee, we give personalized, tailored feedback. Right now it shows up in an email that they get on an ongoing basis. We also have one that we tailor for executives, so the executive gets one for their department and we create an executive leaderboard that compares their performance to fellow peers and I'll tell you, execs love to win, so we've seen immense change from that move alone. >> Well, impressive pedigree on your entrepreneurial background, I see Salesforce has really kind of, I consider real first generation cloud before cloud actually happened, and there's a lot of learn, it was always an Apple case, now it's AWS, but it's it's own cloud as we all know, what are the learnings that you saw from Salesforce that you said hey, I'm going to connect those dots to the new opportunity? What's the real key there? >> So, I had two major aha's that I've been sharing with my work since. One, it's not what people know, but it's what they do that matters, and if you can sit with a moment and think about that, you realize it's not more training, because people might actually know the information, but they just choose not to do it. How many people smoke, and they still know it kills them? They think that it doesn't apply to them, same thing with security. I know what I need to do, I'm just not incentivized to do it, so there's a huge motivation factor that needs to be addressed. That's one thing that I don't see a lot of other players on the market doing and one thing we just really wanted to do as well. >> So it sounds like you guys are providing a vision around using sheet learning and AI and data synthesis wrangling and all that good stuff, to be an assistant, a personal assistant to security folks, because it sounds like you're trying to make their life easier, make better decisions. Sounds like you guys are trying to distract away all these signals, >> You're right. >> See what to pay attention to. >> And make it more relevant, yeah. Well think about what Fitbit did for your own personal fitness. It curates a personal relationship based on a whole bunch of data. How you're doing, goals you've set, and all of a sudden, a couple of miles walk leads to an immense lifestyle change. Same thing with security, yeah. >> That's interesting, I love the Fitbit analogy because if you think about the digital ecosystem of an enterprise, it used to be siloed, IT driven, now with digital, everything's connected so technically, you're instrumenting a lot of things for everything. >> Yeah. >> So the question's not so much instrumentation, it's what's happening when and contextually why. >> That's it, why, that's exactly it. Yeah, you totally got it. >> Okay. I got it. >> Yeah, I can see the light bulb. >> Okay, aha, ding ding. All right, so back to the customer pain point. You mentioned some data points around KPI's that they might or things that they might want to call you so it's incidents, what kind of incidents? When do I know I need to get you involved? Will you repeat those again? >> There's two places where it's a great time to involve. Now, because of the human element is, or think about this as an investment. If you do non-investor security culture, one way or another, you have security culture. It's either hurting you or it's helping you and by hurting you, people are choosing to forego investing security processes or secure cultures and you are just increasing your security debt. By stepping in to address that now, you are actually paying it forward. The second best time, is after you realize you should have done that. Post-breaches or post incidents, is a really great time to come in and look at your culture because people are willing to suspend their beliefs of what good behavior looks like, what's acceptable and when you look at an organization and their culture, it is most valuable after a time of crisis, public or otherwise, and that is a really great time to consider it. >> I think that human error is a huge thing, whether it's as trivial as leaving an S3 bucket open or whatever, I think it's going to get more acute with service meshes and cloud-native microservices. It's going to get much more dynamic and sometimes services can be stood up and torn down without any human knowledge, so there's a lot of blind spots potentially. This brings up the question of how does the collaboration piece, because one of the things about the security industry is, it's a community. Sharing data's important, having access to data, how do you think about that as the founder of a start-up that has a 20 mile steer to the future around data access, data diversity, blind spots, how do you look at that and how do you advise your clients to think about that? >> I've always been really pro data sharing. I think it's one of the things that has held us back as an industry, we're very siloed in this space, especially as it relates to human behavior. I have no idea, as a regular CISO of a company, if I am doing enough to protect my employees, is my phishing click (mumbles), are my malware download rates above normal, below or should I invest more, am I doing enough? How do I do compared to my peers and without sharing industry stats, we have no idea if we're investing enough or quite honestly, not enough in this space. And the second thing is, what are approaches that are most effective? So let's say I have a malware infection problem, which approach, is it this training? Is it a communication? Is it positive reinforcement, is it punishment? What is the most effective to leverage this type of output? What's the input output relation? And we're real excited to have shared data with Horizon Data Breach Report for the first time this year, to start giving back to the communities, specifically to help answer some of these questions. >> Well, I think you're onto something with this behavioral science intersection with human behavior and executive around security practices. I think it's going to be an awesome, thanks for sharing the insights, Miss Masha on theCUBE here. A quick plug for your company, (mumbles) you're funded, Series A funding, take us through the stats, you're hiring what kind of positions, give a plug to the company. >> So, Elevate Security, we're three years old. We have raised ten million to date. We're based in both Berkeley and Montreal and we're hiring sales reps on the west coast, a security product manager and any engineering talent really focused on building an awesome data warehouse infrastructure. So, please check out our website, www.elevatesecurity.com/careers for jobs. >> Two hot engineering markets, Berkeley I see poaching out of Cal, and also Montreal, >> Montreal, McGill and Monterey. >> You got that whole top belt of computer science up in Canada. >> Yeah. >> Well, congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, sharing your story. >> Thank you. >> Security kind of giving the next generation all kinds of new opportunities to make security better. Some CUBE coverage here in San Francisco, at the Moscone Center. I'm John Furrier, we'll be right back after this break. (upbeat music)

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering. Next work. 2019 America's Do You buy Juniper Networks? Come back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in Las Vegas at Caesar's at the Juniper. Next work event. About 1000 people kind of going over a lot of new cool things. 400 gigs. Who knew that was coming out of new information for me? But that's not what we're here today. We're here for the fourth installment of around the Cube unpacking. I were happy to have all the winners of the three previous rounds here at the same place. We don't have to do it over the phone s so we're happy to have him. Let's jump into it. So winner of Round one was Bob Friday. He is the VP and CTO at Missed the Juniper Company. Bob, Great to see you. Good to be back. Absolutely. All the way from Seattle. Sharna Parky. She's a VP applied scientist at Tech CEO could see Sharna and, uh, from Google. We know a lot of a I happen to Google. Rajan's chef. He is the V p ay ay >>product management on Google. Welcome. Thank you, Christy. Here >>All right, so let's jump into it. So just warm everybody up and we'll start with you. Bob, What are some When you're talking to someone at a cocktail party Friday night talking to your mom And they say, What is a I What >>do you >>give him? A Zen examples of where a eyes of packing our lives today? >>Well, I think we all know the examples of the south driving car, you know? Aye, aye. Starting to help our health care industry being diagnosed cancer for me. Personally, I had kind of a weird experience last week at a retail technology event where basically had these new digital mirrors doing facial recognition. Right? And basically, you start to have little mirrors were gonna be a skeevy start guessing. Hey, you have a beard, you have some glasses, and they start calling >>me old. So this is kind >>of very personal. I have a something for >>you, Camille, but eh? I go walking >>down a mall with a bunch of mirrors, calling me old. >>That's a little Illinois. Did it bring you out like a cane or a walker? You know, you start getting some advertising's >>that were like Okay, you guys, this is a little bit over the top. >>Alright, Charlotte, what about you? What's your favorite example? Share with people? >>Yeah, E think one of my favorite examples of a I is, um, kind of accessible in on your phone where the photos you take on an iPhone. The photos you put in Google photos, they're automatically detecting the faces and their labeling them for you. They're like, Here's selfies. Here's your family. Here's your Children. And you know, that's the most successful one of the ones that I think people don't really think about a lot or things like getting loan applications right. We actually have a I deciding whether or not we get loans. And that one is is probably the most interesting one to be right now. >>Roger. So I think the father's example is probably my favorite as well. And what's interesting to me is that really a I is actually not about the Yeah, it's about the user experience that you can create as a result of a I. What's cool about Google photos is that and my entire family uses Google photos and they don't even know actually that the underlying in some of the most powerful a I in the world. But what they know is they confined every picture of our kids on the beach whenever they whenever they want to. Or, you know, we had a great example where we were with our kids. Every time they like something in the store, we take a picture of it, Um, and we can look up toy and actually find everything that they've taken picture. >>It's interesting because I think most people don't even know the power that they have. Because if you search for beach in your Google photos or you search for, uh, I was looking for an old bug picture from my high school there it came right up until you kind of explore. You know, it's pretty tricky, Raja, you know, I think a lot of conversation about A They always focus the general purpose general purpose, general purpose machines and robots and computers. But people don't really talk about the applied A that's happening all around. Why do you think that? >>So it's a good question. There's there's a lot more talk about kind of general purpose, but the reality of where this has an impact right now is, though, are those specific use cases. And so, for example, things like personalizing customer interaction or, ah, spotting trends that did that you wouldn't have spotted for turning unstructured data like documents into structure data. That's where a eyes actually having an impact right now. And I think it really boils down to getting to the right use cases where a I right? >>Sharon, I want ask you. You know, there's a lot of conversation. Always has A I replace people or is it an augmentation for people? And we had Gary Kasparov on a couple years ago, and he talked about, you know, it was the combination if he plus the computer made the best chess player, but that quickly went away. Now the computer is actually better than Garry Kasparov. Plus the computer. How should people think about a I as an augmentation tool versus a replacement tool? And is it just gonna be specific to the application? And how do you kind of think about those? >>Yeah, I would say >>that any application where you're making life and death decisions where you're making financial decisions that disadvantage people anything where you know you've got u A. V s and you're deciding whether or not to actually dropped the bomb like you need a human in the loop. If you're trying to change the words that you are using to get a different group of people to apply for jobs, you need a human in the loop because it turns out that for the example of beach, you type sheep into your phone and you might get just a field, a green field and a I doesn't know that, uh, you know, if it's always seen sheep in a field that when the sheep aren't there, that that isn't a sheep like it doesn't have that kind of recognition to it. So anything were we making decisions about parole or financial? Anything like that needs to have human in the loop because those types of decisions are changing fundamentally the way we live. >>Great. So shift gears. The team are Jeff Saunders. Okay, team, your mind may have been the liquid on my bell, so I'll be more active on the bell. Sorry about that. Everyone's even. We're starting a zero again, so I want to shift gears and talk about data sets. Um Bob, you're up on stage. Demo ing some some of your technology, the Miss Technology and really, you know, it's interesting combination of data sets A I and its current form needs a lot of data again. Kind of the classic Chihuahua on blue buried and photos. You got to run a lot of them through. How do you think about data sets? In terms of having the right data in a complete data set to drive an algorithm >>E. I think we all know data sets with one The tipping points for a I to become more real right along with cloud computing storage. But data is really one of the key points of making a I really write my example on stage was wine, right? Great wine starts a great grape street. Aye, aye. Starts a great data for us personally. L s t M is an example in our networking space where we have data for the last three months from our customers and rule using the last 30 days really trained these l s t m algorithms to really get that tsunami detection the point where we don't have false positives. >>How much of the training is done. Once you once you've gone through the data a couple times in a just versus when you first started, you're not really sure how it's gonna shake out in the algorithm. >>Yeah. So in our case right now, right, training happens every night. So every night, we're basically retraining those models, basically, to be able to predict if there's gonna be an anomaly or network, you know? And this is really an example. Where you looking all these other cat image thinks this is where these neural networks there really were one of the transformational things that really moved a I into the reality calling. And it's starting to impact all our different energy. Whether it's text imaging in the networking world is an example where even a I and deep learnings ruling starting to impact our networking customers. >>Sure, I want to go to you. What do you do if you don't have a big data set? You don't have a lot of pictures of chihuahuas and blackberries, and I want to apply some machine intelligence to the problem. >>I mean, so you need to have the right data set. You know, Big is a relative term on, and it depends on what you're using it for, right? So you can have a massive amount of data that represents solar flares, and then you're trying to detect some anomaly, right? If you train and I what normal is based upon a massive amount of data and you don't have enough examples of that anomaly you're trying to detect, then it's never going to say there's an anomaly there, so you actually need to over sample. You have to create a population of data that allows you to detect images you can't say, Um oh, >>I'm going to reflect in my data set the percentage of black women >>in Seattle, which is something below 6% and say it's fair. It's not right. You have to be able thio over sample things that you need, and in some ways you can get this through surveys. You can get it through, um, actually going to different sources. But you have to boot, strap it in some way, and then you have to refresh it, because if you leave that data set static like Bob mentioned like you, people are changing the way they do attacks and networks all the time, and so you may have been able to find the one yesterday. But today it's a completely different ball game >>project to you, which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You start with the data, and I say this is a ripe opportunity to apply some. Aye, aye. Or do you have some May I objectives that you want to achieve? And I got to go out and find the >>data. So I actually think what starts where it starts is the business problem you're trying to solve. And then from there, you need to have the right data. What's interesting about this is that you can actually have starting points. And so, for example, there's techniques around transfer, learning where you're able to take an an algorithm that's already been trained on a bunch of data and training a little bit further with with your data on DSO, we've seen that such that people that may have, for example, only 100 images of something, but they could use a model that's trained on millions of images and only use those 100 thio create something that's actually quite accurate. >>So that's a great segue. Wait, give me a ring on now. And it's a great Segway into talking about applying on one algorithm that was built around one data set and then applying it to a different data set. Is that appropriate? Is that correct? Is air you risking all kinds of interesting problems by taking that and applying it here, especially in light of when people are gonna go to outweigh the marketplace, is because I've got a date. A scientist. I couldn't go get one in the marketplace and apply to my data. How should people be careful not to make >>a bad decision based on that? So I think it really depends. And it depends on the type of machine learning that you're doing and what type of data you're talking about. So, for example, with images, they're they're they're well known techniques to be able to do this, but with other things, there aren't really and so it really depends. But then the other inter, the other really important thing is that no matter what at the end, you need to test and generate based on your based on your data sets and on based on sample data to see if it's accurate or not, and then that's gonna guide everything. Ultimately, >>Sharon has got to go to you. You brought up something in the preliminary rounds and about open A I and kind of this. We can't have this black box where stuff goes into the algorithm. That stuff comes out and we're not sure what the result was. Sounds really important. Is that Is that even plausible? Is it feasible? This is crazy statistics, Crazy math. You talked about the business objective that someone's trying to achieve. I go to the data scientist. Here's my data. You're telling this is the output. How kind of where's the line between the Lehman and the business person and the hard core data science to bring together the knowledge of Here's what's making the algorithm say this. >>Yeah, there's a lot of names for this, whether it's explainable. Aye, aye. Or interpret a belay. I are opening the black box. Things like that. Um, the algorithms that you use determine whether or not they're inspect herbal. Um, and the deeper your neural network gets, the harder it is to inspect, actually. Right. So, to your point, every time you take an aye aye and you use it in a different scenario than what it was built for. For example, um, there is a police precinct in New York that had a facial recognition software, and, uh, victim said, Oh, it looked like this actor. This person looked like Bill Cosby or something like that, and you were never supposed to take an image of an actor and put it in there to find people that look like them. But that's how people were using it. So the Russians point yes, like it. You can transfer learning to other a eyes, but it's actually the humans that are using it in ways that are unintended that we have to be more careful about, right? Um, even if you're a, I is explainable, and somebody tries to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. The risk is much higher >>now. I think maybe I had, You know, if you look at Marvis kind of what we're building for the networking community Ah, good examples. When Marvis tries to do estimate your throughput right, your Internet throughput. That's what we usually call decision tree algorithm. And that's a very interpretive algorithm. and we predict low throughput. We know how we got to that answer, right? We know what features God, is there? No. But when we're doing something like a NAMI detection, that's a neural network. That black box it tells us yes, there's a problem. There's some anomaly, but that doesn't know what caused the anomaly. But that's a case where we actually used neural networks, actually find the anomie, and then we're using something else to find the root cause, eh? So it really depends on the use case and where the night you're going to use an interpreter of model or a neural network which is more of a black box model. T tell her you've got a cat or you've got a problem >>somewhere. So, Bob, that's really interested. So can you not unpacking? Neural network is just the nature of the way that the communication and the data flows and the inferences are made that you can't go in and unpack it, that you have to have the >>separate kind of process too. Get to the root cause. >>Yeah, assigned is always hard to say. Never. But inherently s neural networks are very complicated. Saito set of weights, right? It's basically usually a supervised training model, and we're feeding a bunch of data and trying to train it to detect a certain features, sir, an output. But that is where they're powerful, right? And that's why they basically doing such good, Because they are mimicking the brain, right? That neural network is a very complex thing. Can't like your brain, right? We really don't understand how your brain works right now when you have a problem, it's really trialling there. We try to figure out >>right going right. So I want to stay with you, bought for a minute. So what about when you change what you're optimizing? Four? So you just said you're optimizing for throughput of the network. You're looking for problems. Now, let's just say it's, uh, into the end of the quarter. Some other reason we're not. You're changing your changing what you're optimizing for, Can you? You have to write separate algorithm. Can you have dynamic movement inside that algorithm? How do you approach a problem? Because you're not always optimizing for the same things, depending on the market conditions. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a good example, you know, again, with Marvis is really with what we call reinforcement. Learning right in reinforcement. Learning is a model we use for, like, radio resource management. And there were really trying to optimize for the user experience in trying to balance the reward, the models trying to reward whether or not we have a good balance between the network and the user. Right, that reward could be changed. So that algorithm is basically reinforcement. You can finally change hell that Algren works by changing the reward you give the algorithm >>great. Um, Rajan back to you. A couple of huge things that have come into into play in the marketplace and get your take one is open source, you know, kind of. What's the impact of open source generally on the availability, desire and more applications and then to cloud and soon to be edge? You know, the current next stop. How do you guys incorporate that opportunity? How does it change what you can do? How does it open up the lens of >>a I Yeah, I think open source is really important because I think one thing that's interesting about a I is that it's a very nascent field and the more that there's open source, the more that people could build on top of each other and be able to utilize what what others others have done. And it's similar to how we've seen open source impact operating systems, the Internet, things like things like that with Cloud. I think one of the big things with cloud is now you have the processing power and the ability to access lots of data to be able to t create these thes networks. And so the capacity for data and the capacity for compute is much higher. Edge is gonna be a very important thing, especially going into next few years. You're seeing Maur things incorporated on the edge and one exciting development is around Federated learning where you can train on the edge and then combine some of those aspects into a cloud side model. And so that I think will actually make EJ even more powerful. >>But it's got to be so dynamic, right? Because the fundamental problem used to always be the move, the computer, the data or the date of the computer. Well, now you've got on these edge devices. You've got Tanya data right sensor data all kinds of machining data. You've got potentially nasty hostile conditions. You're not in a nice, pristine data center where the environmental conditions are in the connective ity issues. So when you think about that problem yet, there's still great information. There you got latent issues. Some I might have to be processed close to home. How do you incorporate that age old thing of the speed of light to still break the break up? The problem to give you a step up? Well, we see a lot >>of customers do is they do a lot of training on the cloud, but then inference on the on the edge. And so that way they're able to create the model that they want. But then they get fast response time by moving the model to the edge. The other thing is that, like you said, lots of data is coming into the edge. So one way to do it is to efficiently move that to the cloud. But the other way to do is filter. And to try to figure out what data you want to send to the clouds that you can create the next days. >>Shawna, back to you let's shift gears into ethics. This pesky, pesky issue that's not not a technological issue at all, but right. We see it often, especially in tech. Just cause you should just cause you can doesn't mean that you should. Um so and this is not a stem issue, right? There's a lot of different things that happened. So how should people be thinking about ethics? How should they incorporate ethics? Um, how should they make sure that they've got kind of a, you know, a standard kind of overlooking kind of what they're doing? The decisions are being made. >>Yeah, One of the more approachable ways that I have found to explain this is with behavioral science methodologies. So ethics is a massive field of study, and not everyone shares the same ethics. However, if you try and bring it closer to behavior change because every product that we're building is seeking to change of behavior. We need to ask questions like, What is the gap between the person's intention and the goal we have for them? Would they choose that goal for themselves or not? If they wouldn't, then you have an ethical problem, right? And this this can be true of the intention, goal gap or the intention action up. We can see when we regulated for cigarettes. What? We can't just make it look cool without telling them what the cigarettes are doing to them, right so we can apply the same principles moving forward. And they're pretty accessible without having to know. Oh, this philosopher and that philosopher in this ethicist said these things, it can be pretty human. The challenge with this is that most people building these algorithms are not. They're not trained in this way of thinking, and especially when you're working at a start up right, you don't have access to massive teams of people to guide you down this journey, so you need to build it in from the beginning, and you need to be open and based upon principles. Um, and it's going to touch every component. It should touch your data, your algorithm, the people that you're using to build the product. If you only have white men building the product, you have a problem you need to pull in other people. Otherwise, there are just blind spots that you are not going to think of in order to still that product for a wider audience, but it seems like >>they were on such a razor sharp edge. Right with Coca Cola wants you to buy Coca Cola and they show ads for Coca Cola, and they appeal to your let's all sing together on the hillside and be one right. But it feels like with a I that that is now you can cheat. Right now you can use behavioral biases that are hardwired into my brain is a biological creature against me. And so where is where is the fine line between just trying to get you to buy Coke? Which somewhat argues Probably Justus Bad is Jule cause you get diabetes and all these other issues, but that's acceptable. But cigarettes are not. And now we're seeing this stuff on Facebook with, you know, they're coming out. So >>we know that this is that and Coke isn't just selling Coke anymore. They're also selling vitamin water so they're they're play isn't to have a single product that you can purchase, but it is to have a suite of products that if you weren't that coke, you can buy it. But if you want that vitamin water you can have that >>shouldn't get vitamin water and a smile that only comes with the coat. Five. You want to jump in? >>I think we're going to see ethics really break into two different discussions, right? I mean, ethics is already, like human behavior that you're already doing right, doing bad behavior, like discriminatory hiring, training, that behavior. And today I is gonna be wrong. It's wrong in the human world is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the other component to this ethics discussion is really round privacy and data. It's like that mirror example, right? No. Who gave that mirror the right to basically tell me I'm old and actually do something with that data right now. Is that my data? Or is that the mirrors data that basically recognized me and basically did something with it? Right. You know, that's the Facebook. For example. When I get the email, tell me, look at that picture and someone's take me in the pictures Like, where was that? Where did that come from? Right? >>What? I'm curious about to fall upon that as social norms change. We talked about it a little bit for we turn the cameras on, right? It used to be okay. Toe have no black people drinking out of a fountain or coming in the side door of a restaurant. Not that long ago, right in the 60. So if someone had built an algorithm, then that would have incorporated probably that social norm. But social norms change. So how should we, you know, kind of try to stay ahead of that or at least go back reflectively after the fact and say kind of back to the black box, That's no longer acceptable. We need to tweak this. I >>would have said in that example, that was wrong. 50 years ago. >>Okay, it was wrong. But if you ask somebody in Alabama, you know, at the University of Alabama, Matt Department who have been born Red born, bred in that culture as well, they probably would have not necessarily agreed. But so generally, though, again, assuming things change, how should we make sure to go back and make sure that we're not again carrying four things that are no longer the right thing to do? >>Well, I think I mean, as I said, I think you know what? What we know is wrong, you know is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the more subtle thing is when we start relying on these Aye. Aye. To make decisions like no shit in my car, hit the pedestrian or save my life. You know, those are tough decisions to let a machine take off or your balls decision. Right when we start letting the machines Or is it okay for Marvis to give this D I ps preference over other people, right? You know, those type of decisions are kind of the ethical decision, you know, whether right or wrong, the human world, I think the same thing will apply in the eye world. I do think it will start to see more regulation. Just like we see regulation happen in our hiring. No, that regulation is going to be applied into our A I >>right solutions. We're gonna come back to regulation a minute. But, Roger, I want to follow up with you in your earlier session. You you made an interesting comment. You said, you know, 10% is clearly, you know, good. 10% is clearly bad, but it's a soft, squishy middle at 80% that aren't necessarily super clear, good or bad. So how should people, you know, kind of make judgments in this this big gray area in the middle? >>Yeah, and I think that is the toughest part. And so the approach that we've taken is to set us set out a set of AI ai principles on DDE. What we did is actually wrote down seven things that we will that we think I should do and four things that we should not do that we will not do. And we now have to actually look at everything that we're doing against those Aye aye principles. And so part of that is coming up with that governance process because ultimately it boils down to doing this over and over, seeing lots of cases and figuring out what what you should do and so that governments process is something we're doing. But I think it's something that every company is going to need to do. >>Sharon, I want to come back to you, so we'll shift gears to talk a little bit about about law. We've all seen Zuckerberg, unfortunately for him has been, you know, stuck in these congressional hearings over and over and over again. A little bit of a deer in a headlight. You made an interesting comment on your prior show that he's almost like he's asking for regulation. You know, he stumbled into some really big Harry nasty areas that were never necessarily intended when they launched Facebook out of his dorm room many, many moons ago. So what is the role of the law? Because the other thing that we've seen, unfortunately, a lot of those hearings is a lot of our elected officials are way, way, way behind there, still printing their e mails, right? So what is the role of the law? How should we think about it? What shall we What should we invite from fromthe law to help sort some of this stuff out? >>I think as an individual, right, I would like for each company not to make up their own set of principles. I would like to have a shared set of principles that were following the challenge. Right, is that with between governments, that's impossible. China is never gonna come up with same regulations that we will. They have a different privacy standards than we D'oh. Um, but we are seeing locally like the state of Washington has created a future of work task force. And they're coming into the private sector and asking companies like text you and like Google and Microsoft to actually advise them on what should we be regulating? We don't know. We're not the technologists, but they know how to regulate. And they know how to move policies through the government. What will find us if we don't advise regulators on what we should be regulating? They're going to regulate it in some way, just like they regulated the tobacco industry. Just like they regulated. Sort of, um, monopolies that tech is big enough. Now there is enough money in it now that it will be regularly. So we need to start advising them on what we should regulate because just like Mark, he said. While everyone else was doing it, my competitors were doing it. So if you >>don't want me to do it, make us all stop. What >>can I do? A negative bell and that would not for you, but for Mark's responsibly. That's crazy. So So bob old man at the mall. It's actually a little bit more codified right, There's GDP are which came through May of last year and now the newness to California Extra Gatorade, California Consumer Protection Act, which goes into effect January 1. And you know it's interesting is that the hardest part of the implementation of that I think I haven't implemented it is the right to be for gotten because, as we all know, computers, air, really good recording information and cloud. It's recorded everywhere. There's no there there. So when these types of regulations, how does that impact? Aye, aye, because if I've got an algorithm built on a data set in in person, you know, item number 472 decides they want to be forgotten How that too I deal with that. >>Well, I mean, I think with Facebook, I can see that as I think. I suspect Mark knows what's right and wrong. He's just kicking ball down tires like >>I want you guys. >>It's your problem, you know. Please tell me what to do. I see a ice kind of like any other new technology, you know, it could be abused and used in the wrong waste. I think legally we have a constitution that protects our rights. And I think we're going to see the lawyers treat a I just like any other constitutional things and people who are building products using a I just like me build medical products or other products and actually harmful people. You're gonna have to make sure that you're a I product does not harm people. You're a product does not include no promote discriminatory results. So I >>think we're going >>to see our constitutional thing is going applied A I just like we've seen other technologies work. >>And it's gonna create jobs because of that, right? Because >>it will be a whole new set of lawyers >>the holdings of lawyers and testers, even because otherwise of an individual company is saying. But we tested. It >>works. Trust us. Like, how are you gonna get the independent third party verification of that? So we're gonna start to see a whole terrorist proliferation of that type of fields that never had to exist before. >>Yeah, one of my favorite doctor room. A child. Grief from a center. If you don't follow her on Twitter Follower. She's fantastic and a great lady. So I want to stick with you for a minute, Bob, because the next topic is autonomous. And Rahman up on the keynote this morning, talked about missed and and really, this kind of shifting workload of fixing things into an autonomous set up where the system now is, is finding problems, diagnosing problems, fixing problems up to, I think, he said, even generating return authorizations for broken gear, which is amazing. But autonomy opens up all kinds of crazy, scary things. Robert Gates, we interviewed said, You know, the only guns that are that are autonomous in the entire U. S. Military are the ones on the border of North Korea. Every single other one has to run through a person when you think about autonomy and when you can actually grant this this a I the autonomy of the agency toe act. What are some of the things to think about in the word of the things to keep from just doing something bad, really, really fast and efficiently? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we discussed, right? I mean, I think Pakal purposes we're far, you know, there is a tipping point. I think eventually we will get to the CP 30 Terminator day where we actually build something is on par with the human. But for the purposes right now, we're really looking at tools that we're going to help businesses, doctors, self driving cars and those tools are gonna be used by our customers to basically allow them to do more productive things with their time. You know, whether it's doctor that's using a tool to actually use a I to predict help bank better predictions. They're still gonna be a human involved, you know, And what Romney talked about this morning and networking is really allowing our I T customers focus more on their business problems where they don't have to spend their time finding bad hard were bad software and making better experiences for the people. They're actually trying to serve >>right, trying to get your take on on autonomy because because it's a different level of trust that we're giving to the machine when we actually let it do things based on its own. But >>there's there's a lot that goes into this decision of whether or not to allow autonomy. There's an example I read. There's a book that just came out. Oh, what's the title? You look like a thing. And I love you. It was a book named by an A I, um if you want to learn a lot about a I, um and you don't know much about it, Get it? It's really funny. Um, so in there there is in China. Ah, factory where the Aye Aye. Is optimizing um, output of cockroaches now they just They want more cockroaches now. Why do they want that? They want to grind them up and put them in a lotion. It's one of their secret ingredients now. It depends on what parameters you allow that I to change, right? If you decide Thio let the way I flood the container, and then the cockroaches get out through the vents and then they get to the kitchen to get food, and then they reproduce the parameters in which you let them be autonomous. Over is the challenge. So when we're working with very narrow Ai ai, when use hell the Aye. Aye. You can change these three things and you can't just change anything. Then it's a lot easier to make that autonomous decision. Um and then the last part of it is that you want to know what is the results of a negative outcome, right? There was the result of a positive outcome. And are those results something that we can take actually? >>Right, Right. Roger, don't give you the last word on the time. Because kind of the next order of step is where that machines actually write their own algorithms, right? They start to write their own code, so they kind of take this next order of thought and agency, if you will. How do you guys think about that? You guys are way out ahead in the space, you have huge data set. You got great technology. Got tensorflow. When will the machines start writing their own A their own out rhythms? Well, and actually >>it's already starting there that, you know, for example, we have we have a product called Google Cloud. Ottawa. Mel Village basically takes in a data set, and then we find the best model to be able to match that data set. And so things like that that that are there already, but it's still very nascent. There's a lot more than that that can happen. And I think ultimately with with how it's used I think part of it is you have to start. Always look at the downside of automation. And what is what is the downside of a bad decision, whether it's the wrong algorithm that you create or a bad decision in that model? And so if the downside is really big, that's where you need to start to apply Human in the loop. And so, for example, in medicine. Hey, I could do amazing things to detect diseases, but you would want a doctor in the loop to be able to actually diagnose. And so you need tohave have that place in many situations to make sure that it's being applied well. >>But is that just today? Or is that tomorrow? Because, you know, with with exponential growth and and as fast as these things are growing, will there be a day where you don't necessarily need maybe need the doctor to communicate the news? Maybe there's some second order impacts in terms of how you deal with the family and, you know, kind of pros and cons of treatment options that are more emotional than necessarily mechanical, because it seems like eventually that the doctor has a role. But it isn't necessarily in accurately diagnosing a problem. >>I think >>I think for some things, absolutely over time the algorithms will get better and better, and you can rely on them and trust them more and more. But again, I think you have to look at the downside consequence that if there's a bad decision, what happens and how is that compared to what happens today? And so that's really where, where that is. So, for example, self driving cars, we will get to the point where cars are driving by themselves. There will be accidents, but the accident rate is gonna be much lower than what's there with humans today, and so that will get there. But it will take time. >>And there was a day when will be illegal for you to drive. You have manslaughter, right? >>I I believe absolutely there will be in and and I don't think it's that far off. Actually, >>wait for the day when I have my car take me up to Northern California with me. Sleepy. I've only lived that long. >>That's right. And work while you're while you're sleeping, right? Well, I want to thank everybody Aton for being on this panel. This has been super fun and these air really big issues. So I want to give you the final word will just give everyone kind of a final say and I just want to throw out their Mars law. People talk about Moore's law all the time. But tomorrow's law, which Gardner stolen made into the hype cycle, you know, is that we tend to overestimate in the short term, which is why you get the hype cycle and we turn. Tend to underestimate, in the long term the impacts of technology. So I just want it is you look forward in the future won't put a year number on it, you know, kind of. How do you see this rolling out? What do you excited about? What are you scared about? What should we be thinking about? We'll start with you, Bob. >>Yeah, you know, for me and, you know, the day of the terminus Heathrow. I don't know if it's 100 years or 1000 years. That day is coming. We will eventually build something that's in part of the human. I think the mission about the book, you know, you look like a thing and I love >>you. >>Type of thing that was written by someone who tried to train a I to basically pick up lines. Right? Cheesy pickup lines. Yeah, I'm not for sure. I'm gonna trust a I to help me in my pickup lines yet. You know I love you. Look at your thing. I love you. I don't know if they work. >>Yeah, but who would? Who would have guessed online dating is is what it is if you had asked, you know, 15 years ago. But I >>think yes, I think overall, yes, we will see the Terminator Cp through It was probably not in our lifetime, but it is in the future somewhere. A. I is definitely gonna be on par with the Internet cell phone, radio. It's gonna be a technology that's gonna be accelerating if you look where technology's been over last. Is this amazing to watch how fast things have changed in our lifetime alone, right? Yeah, we're just on this curve of technology accelerations. This in the >>exponential curves China. >>Yeah, I think the thing I'm most excited about for a I right now is the addition of creativity to a lot of our jobs. So ah, lot of we build an augmented writing product. And what we do is we look at the words that have happened in the world and their outcomes. And we tell you what words have impacted people in the past. Now, with that information, when you augment humans in that way, they get to be more creative. They get to use language that have never been used before. To communicate an idea. You can do this with any field you can do with composition of music. You can if you can have access as an individual, thio the data of a bunch of cultures the way that we evolved can change. So I'm most excited about that. I think I'm most concerned currently about the products that we're building Thio Give a I to people that don't understand how to use it or how to make sure they're making an ethical decision. So it is extremely easy right now to go on the Internet to build a model on a data set. And I'm not a specialist in data, right? And so I have no idea if I'm adding bias in or not, um and so it's It's an interesting time because we're in that middle area. Um, and >>it's getting loud, all right, Roger will throw with you before we have to cut out, or we're not gonna be able to hear anything. So I actually start every presentation out with a picture of the Mosaic browser, because what's interesting is I think that's where >>a eyes today compared to kind of weather when the Internet was around 1994 >>were just starting to see how a I can actually impact the average person. As a result, there's a lot of hype, but what I'm actually finding is that 70% of the company's I talked to the first question is, Why should I be using this? And what benefit does it give me? Why 70% ask you why? Yeah, and and what's interesting with that is that I think people are still trying to figure out what is this stuff good for? But to your point about the long >>run, and we underestimate the longer I think that every company out there and every product will be fundamentally transformed by eye over the course of the next decade, and it's actually gonna have a bigger impact on the Internet itself. And so that's really what we have to look forward to. >>All right again. Thank you everybody for participating. There was a ton of fun. Hope you had fun. And I look at the score sheet here. We've got Bob coming in and the bronze at 15 points. Rajan, it's 17 in our gold medal winner for the silver Bell. Is Sharna at 20 points. Again. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much and look forward to our next conversation. Thank Jeffrey Ake signing out from Caesar's Juniper. Next word unpacking. I Thanks for watching.

(upbeat intro) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to the Palo Alto studios of theCUBE, I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE, we're here with a special power panel on industrial IOT, also known as IIOT, industrial IOT, and cybersecurity, with the theme being apocalypse now or later, when will the rug be pulled out from everyone, when will people have to make a move on making sure that the network and security are all teed up and all locked down, as IOT increases the surface area of networks, industrial IOT, where critical equipment or infrastructure is being run for businesses. Got a great panel here, we got Gabe Lowy who's the founder and CEO of Tectonic Advisors, and author of an upcoming research paper on this particular topic. Bryan Skene, vice president of product development at Tempered Networks, and Greg Ness, the CMO, who happened to be available to join us from Tempered Networks as well. Guys, thanks for spending the time to come on this power panel. >> Great to be here. >> So, convergence is a theme we've heard every wave of innovation, the convergence of this, the convergence of networks and apps. Now more than ever, there's a confluence of multiple waves of convergence happening, you're seeing it right now, infrastructure turned into cloud, big data turned into machine learning and AI, you've got future infrastructure like Blockchain around the corner, but in the middle of all this, the security, data, networking, this is kind of the beginning of a cloud 2.0 dynamic, where pure cloud is great for computing network, you native born in the cloud, you scale it up, it's great. Still got challenges but if you're a large company, and you want to actually operate cloud scale anything, and have instrumentation, internet of things, devices, sensors, in factory's, in plants, in cars, your game is changing, if it's connected to the network, it's got power and connectivity, a terrorist, a hacker, a digital terrorist can come in and do all kinds of damage. This is the topic. So Greg, we talked about this panel, what was the motivation for this, what's your thoughts? >> Well, it occurred to us that you know, as you look at all the connectivity that's you know, underway, billions of devices being connected, the level of scale, complexity, and the porosity of what's being connected, is just really incomprehensible, to the people that developed the internet, and it's raising a lot of issues. All around, basically, the number of devices the inability to protect and secure and update those devices, and the sheer amount of money and effort that would have to be applied to protect them is beyond the scope of current IT security stuff. IT's not ready. >> IT, certainly, you and I talk about this all the time, but you know, I love the hype and you know, digital transformation's going to save the world Gabe, talk about the dynamics because the title of this panel, really the subtitle is apocalypse now or later, and this seems to be the modus operandus is that you know, you know what has to hit the fan before any action is taken, you see Capital One, there isn't a day gone by where there's some major breach, major hack, it's a firewall for Capital One, going to an open S3 bucket from some girl whose bragging about it on Twitter, wasn't really a serious hacker, then you've got adversaries that are organized, whether it's state sponsored and or real money making underbelly activities happening, you know there are digital terrorists out there, there are digital thieves, the surface area with IOT is absolutely opened up, we kind of know that, but industrial IOT, just talking about industrial equipment, industrial activities, whether it's critical infrastructure or planting equipment for a company, this is a huge digital problem. What's your take, what's your thesis? >> Yes it is, and building on what Greg said, there's an interesting gap from both sides. The first is that this industrial equipment or critical infrastructure, some of it goes back 20, 25 years. It was not architected to be connected to the internet, but yet with this digital transformation that you eluded to, companies want to find ways of getting that data, putting it into various analytics engines to improve cost efficiencies or decision outcomes. But how do you do that with a lot of equipment out there that runs on different operating systems and really was not built for internet connections. The other side of the gap is that your traditional IT security technologies, firewalls, intrusion protection, VPN's, they in turn were not built or architected to secure this IIOT infrastructure. And that gap creates the vulnerability that opens the door for cyber criminals to come in, or state sponsored cyber attackers to come in and do some serious damage. >> Bryan, I want you to weight in here. You're a network guy, you've been around the block, you've seen the networks evolve, the primitives were clear, the building blocks internet were, the DNS ran, most of what the internet right now, whether you're talking about from the marketing to routing, it's all DNS based, it's IP addresses as well under that. So you've got the IP address, you've got DNS, what else is there? What can be done? Why aren't these problems being solved by traditional firewalls and traditional players out there, is it just the limitation of the infrastructure? Or is there just more cultural DNA, you've got to evolve, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, um the way I think about this is that the internet that we know and we use was mostly built for human beings, I mean, it's been built for humans to use it, humans have discriminating tastes, they decide what to click on, for the most part they are skeptical, they learn through trial and error what's happened with- when people try to fool other people, a machine or you know, you've got a webpage and it's got something misleading, you learn that, you don't click on that any more. And the infrastructure we have today is built to help people avoid these problems, as well as drop packets when they can detect that something is just absolutely wrong. But machines, they don't know any of that, they're not discriminating, they've been built to, well if it's going to be on a network, to trust everything that's talking to them, and to send data and assume that the other side is also trusting them and just acting on the data. So it's just a fundamentally different problem, you know what traditionally the machine networks have had air gaps, they've been air gapped away from any other kinds of data or potential threat. And those air gaps are gone. >> So air gaps were supposed to save us, weren't they? But they're not are they? >> Well, they kept us going as Gabe alluded, for 20 -25 years, machines have been operating, operating critical infrastructure, but you know, with digitalization, with the opportunity to look at that data in the cloud, and do machine learning, and by the way machine learning's being done in the cloud just for scale, so the problem with getting the data from machines, or other things back into the cloud is a huge issue, and if there's an air gap between say the cloud and the thing, we might be somewhere. >> So a lot of incompatible architectures relative to what everyone's doing with cloud, and say hybrid and multi cloud. Gabe, you know the two worlds of information technology or IT people, and operational technology people, that tend to run the IOT world, you know you do sensors to factory floors to whatever, called OT people, operational technologies. I've always said that's a train wreck between those two cultures, they kind of don't like each other. You got IT guys, they're stacking and racking equipment, OT guys, stay out of my world I run propietary stacks, it's lockdown. Pretty locked down from a security standpoint, IT are pretty promiscuous just in the nature of it. As those two worlds collide, is that the thesis of the catastrophe model, as you see that world coming together, what's your thoughts on this? >> Yes, good question. That world has to come together, and I'll give you an analogy to this. About 10, 12 years ago, a lot of people were doubtful that Devops would ever take off, 'cause development guys really didn't like operations guys, they didn't like dealing with them. Here we are 10 years or so later, and everyone's pretty much adopted it, and they're seeing the benefits of it. This OT IT convergence takes it to a much higher level, because the stakes are so much higher, because a cyber attack can cause catastrophic damage. And as a result, these two teams are not only going to have to work together in harmony, but they're going to have to learn each other's stacks in the case of the OT guys, it's their traditional OSI networking stack for IT networks. And for the IT guys, they're going to have to learn the Purdue model, which was the model that's principally used in architecting these OT systems. And unless these two teams do work together, the vulnerabilities and probabilities for a catastrophic event increases significantly. >> That's a great example, Devops was poo-pooed on earlier on, I mean Greg, we were back in 2008 riffing on this, now it's the mainstream. Agilities come from it, the Lean startup, all kinds of cool things, people are talking about, we love cloud, great. Now we bring the OT world together, and IT world together, Gabe, what is the benefit, what is the key ethos around operating technologies and IT guys coming together? Because you know, dev ops would simply abstract away the complexity so developers don't have to do configuration and management, all that provisioning stuff, and still have the reliability. They called it infrastructure as code, so Devops was infrastructure as code, what's the ethos of the two worlds coming together from IT and OT? >> I think the ethos is at a very high level, it's risk management. Because the stakes are so high that the types of losses that could be incurred, you know you mentioned Capital One at the top of the program, yes those are financial losses, but imagine if the losses resulted in thousands or tens of thousands of people getting infected, or perhaps dying. So the need for these two teams to work together is absolutely critical, and so I'd say the key strategic approach to this, both from the IT and the OT side, is to go into it- into strategy or cyber strategy with the premise that the company has already been compromised. And so that starts to get your thinking away from legacy types of technologies that were not architected to prevent these new threats, or defend against them, and now these teams have to start working together from a totally different standpoint, to try and prevent the risks of those catastrophic losses. >> Greg, I want to get your thoughts, you've been in the IT businesses for a long time, you've been a major player in it, historian as well as us in IT, what do you see as contrast between the two cultures of IT and OT, because you got to lock down these networks, you got to have the teamwork between the two, because the surface area with IOT and industrial IOT is so massive, it's so complicated yet it's an opportunity at the same time it's an exposure, I mean just people working at home in IT, I mean the home is a great place to target people because all you got to do is get that light bulb from nest and you're at a fully threaded processor, you could run malware and get all the passwords from the person working at home. So again, from home to industrial, does IT even have the chops to get there? >> Not the way they're architected today around the TCP- IP stack, and that's the challenge, right? So from the 90's to this era, whether it's the mainframes to the networks to the internet to the enterprise web et cetera, compared to this we've had relatively incremental change, as surprising as that sounds. You know, devices being added and every year, every other year, every three years, people are upgrading those endpoints, they're adding more sophisticated security. But this world that you referred to, the world's in collision. It's not evolving at all in parallel. So, you've got devices with no security in mind they're being connected, and you know, calling it the industrial internet of things almost underwhelms what the risk is, it should be the internet of places or spaces, because what these devices can control, control of a factory, a hospital, et cetera, and you think back you know, yes you've got historical perspective, you don't have to go back very far when the Russians were attacking Ukraine, you know, WannaCry, NotPetya, you know they spread all over the place in a matter of weeks, UK hospitals were running on carbon paper, postponing procedures, Maersk shipping had they're shipping- they lost control of their ships at sea, and now you've got VxWorks coming along, saying you know, you're going to have to update that, because there's some serious vulnerabilities here, VxWorks is deployed to cross billions of devices, so I don't think historically there's really a precedent, I mean, if you want to tap into a common interest with military history, you don't even have the semblance of a Maginot Line, and that was a pretty imperfect protection scheme. >> I mean, the opportunity to infect governments, take 'em down within misinformation to actually harming people say through hospital hacks for instance, you know, people could- lives were in danger. And there's also other threats, I mean, you mentioned, it takes one device to be penetrated, at home or at work, I saw an article, came across my desk I saw IBM did some research, this concept of war shipping, where hackers ship their exploits directly on WiFi devices, so people get these devices, hey, free you know, nest light bulb or whatever's going on, they install in their home, oh it's got, I got a free WiFi router, uh-uh, it's got built in malware. It's just got WiFi connectivity. So again, the exploits are getting more complicated, Bryan, the network has to be smart. At the end of the day, this cloud 2.0 theme is beyond compute and storage, networking and security are two underdeveloped areas that need to evolve very quickly to solve these problems, what's your take on this. >> Well, my take on that is that our approach is that if the network has to be so smart that it can watch everything and understand what's good and bad, then we're doomed, so we're going to need to also combine watching packets, the traditional method, deep packet inspection, with divide and conquer. Frankly, it's-as Tom and I said before, the air gaps are gone for OT. I think we need to figure out a way to divide up the networks of things, and give them clean networks if possible, and try to segment them away from the network that the rest of the things are on. So, you know, we don't have enough compute power, we don't have enough memory and resources, but that's not really the fit. We just don't understand what is good traffic versus bad traffic, and we talk about Day Zero attack, and we talk about, try to chase that down with signatures, and you know the- you can watch transactions, people say AI and machine learning, but machine learning means learning good and bad from people. >> How do companies fix this, what's the answer to all this, or is there one? Or it's just going to take catastrophic loss to wake people up? >> Well we can't react to the problem, that's one thing that we all can probably- we all know that if we wait for the catastrophe, and then we try to react to that and solve it, that it's already gone, it's too late. I mean, this is a geometric expansion in complexity of the problem, I don't think there's a silver bullet, I think that there's going to be several things that need to be done, one is to keep inspecting traffic, but another one is again segmenting things that should be talking to each other, away from things that they should not be talking to. And trying to control the peers in the network of things. And you know, Greg something you said reminded me, fundamentally with networking, the TCP-IP, we are using the IP address, to mean the location say if we're talking about places, we're talking about the location of something and the identity of that thing, and most of our security policies, are spelled out in terms of something, an IP address, that is not under our control, and the network has to be kind of so complex as it is growing, with mass proxies, you know, motion, mobility, things are moving. A lot of this wasn't foreseen. >> So, Gabe and Greg, do we have to build new software, a new naming system? Do we have to kind of level up and put an extraction layer on top of the existing systems? What's the answer? >> The answer is a layered approach. Because to try and do a complete rebuild or a retrofit particularly with different operating systems, different versions, incompatible systems, billions of devices, and various types of security solutions that were not built for this, that's not a practical solution. So you've really got to go with an overlay strategy, people are always going to be the vulnerability, they'll fall for fishing attacks, that's why the strategy is that we're already compromised. So if the attacker is already in our network, how do we contain them from doing serious damage? So one strategy for this is micro-segmentation, which is a much more granular approach, to prevent that lateral movement once the attacker is inside the network. And then when you go from there, you can pair that with host identity protocol which has been around for a while, but that was architected specifically to address the networking and security requirements for IIOT environment, because it addresses that gap that we were talking about between traditional security solutions that lack this functionality, and it only allows white-listed communications between hosts or devices that are already approved and only approved to communicate with one another. So you could effectively do a lockdown even if the attacker is already inside your network. >> I want to get back to some of the criteria on this, and I want to also put the plug in for the TechTonic advisors report that's coming out that you are the author of, called securing critical infrastructure against cyber attacks, I read it, great paper. The line that I read, I want to get your thoughts I'm going to read it out loud, I'd love to get your thoughts on this Gabe or anyone else who wants to chime in, it says industrial IOT cybersecurity is beyond the scope of traditional firewall and VPN solutions would struggle to keep up with the scale and variety of modern attacks. What do you mean by that? Give an example, tell me what you mean by that sentence, and what examples can you give? >> Well, I'd say the most important thing is that firewalls were initially built to protect what we call north-south traffic. In other words, traffic that's coming in from the internet into the organization and back out. But now with network expansion, cloud adoption and more and more devices, industrial devices being connected, these firewalls cannot defend against that. They simply were not architected for it, they cannot scale to those proportions, and even if you're using software only versions, those aren't effective either because they do not protect against east-west or in other words lateral traffic. So if you're an organization moving IIOT data from your OT systems across your network into IP analytics systems or software, that's lateral movement. Your firewall- traditional firewall, just not going to be able to handle that and protect against it, so in simple terms, we need a new overlay not to say that firewalls are going away any time soon, they can still protect north-south traffic, but we need a new type of overlay that can protect this type of traffic, micro-segmentation is the strategy to do that and using host identity protocol or HIP protocol is what fills that gap that your traditional security tools were not designed to protect against. >> Greg, I want you to weigh in on this, because you're in this business now, you know the IT world, the criticality of what you just said is super critical to the nature of business, you know the catastrophic example's there, but IT does not move that fast, you know IT, IT'S like molasses, I mean they're slow. What is going to light a fire under IT to get them to be sensitive, I mean it's pretty obvious, can they get there, do they have to re-structure what has to happen in the IT world, because you know, it is a catastrophic end game here if they don't nail down this traffic protection. >> Well a part of the- you know, part of it is education. Because we've been- we've seen wave and wave of incremental innovation in the network, and when it happened it seemed so big and and it produced huge market cap growth with a lot of companies, you know play this guessing game of who is really connecting to the network. And it's evolved kind of gradually, to this big leap we have ahead of us, and IT is going to have to become aware that IIOT is a fundamentally different problem and challenge to solve, and that's going to require new thinking, new purpose built, like Gabe said, approaches, anything like the traditional firewall segmentation is just not going to address what we talked about, the scale issues, the resilience right? So, some of these devices, you don't want them off for one or two percent of the time. And the implications are that it's much more serious. So I think that, you know, more types of attacks are inevitable, and they're going to be even more catastrophic, and we're all aware that NotPetya and WannaCry raised a lot of eyebrows just for how quick it spread and the damage it caused. And we've just seen VxWorks vulnerabilities being announced. We need to prepare now. >> Malware and worms are still popular, it's a problem. Well guys, thanks so much for spending the time on this panel, I'll give you the final word here, share what you think is going to happen over the next 24 months, 12 months, is it going to take catastrophic failure, what's going to happen in your mind, what's going to end up being the trajectory over the next, you know say year. >> Well, unfortunately, sometimes it might take a catastrophic event to get things moving, hopefully not, but I think there's growing recognition as IIOT is growing, that they need new ways to secure this movement of data between OT and IT, and in order to facilitate that securing of data, you're going to have to have that OT and IT convergence occur, because the risk, as you sort of eluded to earlier John, we hear in the headlines about massive data breaches and all this data that's stolen. But the risk in IIOT is not only the exfiltration of the data, the risk is that the attacker has the capacity to take over the infrastructure. And if that happens in a hospital, if it happens with a water treatment facility or government type of defense installation, the outcomes can be disastrous. So the first thing that has to happen is OT IT convergence. Second, they have to start thinking strategically from a standpoint that they have already been breached, and so that changes their viewpoint about the technologies that they have to deploy, and where they have to move to to efficiently get to what I call the iddies, and that's the- you still need the availability, you've got to have visibility into this traffic, you need reliability of this network, obviously it's got to be at scale, it's got to be manageable, and you need security. >> Well, we'd like to have you on again Gabe, because we've talked about this from a national security perspective, not only the hackers potentially risking the business risk there, there's a national security overlay because you know, if the government's attacking our businesses, that's like showing up on the shores of our country, its the government's job to protect the freedom's and safety of the citizens, that includes companies. So why are companies defending themselves with all this capability, what's the role of government in all of this, that's a very important, I think a longer conversation. So, let's pick that one up, a separate one, my favorite topic these days. Critical infrastructure even if it's just business it's the grid, it's the plants that run our country. >> And John, what I'd like to add to that is, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a CIO down here in California yesterday, and we were talking about the ransomware right, that was taking down all these cities. And you know, he goes well the difference between what you guys are talking about and that, is that you can back up your IT systems, right, into the cloud, and that's a growing business to kind of protect and then replicate game over, and he goes, can you back up a hospital? Can you back up a manufacturing plant? Can you back up a fleet of ships? You know, can you back up a control center? Not really, when you lose physical control, it's game over. And people, I think that really needs to sink in. And that was, I think in Gabe's paper when I first read it, that's what really struck me about it, this is a different ballgame. >> Well, I mean, there's many points, there's the technical point there, and there's also the societal point of- you imagine things being taken over by hackers that physically can harm people, and that's again the societal side, technically the incompatible architecture's coming home to roost now, because there's the problem right there, that's the collision that's happened I think, and a lot of education needs to happen fast, Gabe, thanks for writing that paper critical infrastructure against cyber and securing it, Bryan thanks for coming on appreciate it, you want to say, get the final word Bryan, go ahead. Your thoughts, next 12 months. >> I think that if our future, it depends on OT and IT coming together and a lot of education, a lot of change, I don't think we're going to get there, I think that what's going to happen in the next 24 months is that you know, there are lots of innovative schemes and companies and people, working on this and what we need to do is lay down infrastructure that allows OT and IT to keep operating, and not have to do a forklift upgrade and everything that they do, their processes or teach the things how to protect themselves, and again I'm going to go back to air gaps in network, make a logical air gap, if you imagine driverless cars driving around they're not going to, imagine them sharing the same network that we're using to use Snapchat and look at cities and you know, sitting on the internet and looking at Facebook. We're not going to want that. So we need to try and figure out a way to separate the location of the thing from the identity, create policies in terms of the identity, manage that a new layer, and do it in such a way that doesn't change IT. To me that's the key, 'cause I- we've said it here, IT's doesn't move that fast, they can't. It's not a matter of willpower, it's a matter of momentum and intertia. >> Well, I think the forcing function on this is going to be catastrophic event, the subtitle of this panel, apocalypse now or later. And in my opinion, Greg's been, you know, on this JetEye department of defense story. I believe this is one of the most important stories in the technology industry in a long long time, it really highlights the confluence and convergence of two differently designed infrastructure technologies, that have to in a very short time, be re-platformed at high speed, in a very fast short time frame, because the stakes are so high. So guys, thanks so much for spending the time here on this power panel, IIOT, industrial IOT and cyber security apocalypse now or later, something's going to have to happen, it has to happen fast. Gabe, Bryan, Greg thanks for taking the time. This is a cube conversation here in Palo Alto power panel, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back. Everyone's Cube Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS. Reinforce Amazon Web sources. First inaugural conference around security. It's not Osama. It's a branded event. Big time ecosystem developing. We have returning here. Cube Alumni Bill Jeff for VP of strategy and the partnerships that Iron Net Cyber Security Company. Welcome back. Thanks. General Keith Alexander, who was on a week and 1/2 ago. And it was public sector summit. Good to see you. Good >> to see you. Thanks for >> having my back, but I want to get into some of the Iran cyber communities. We had General Qi 1000. He was the original commander of the division. So important discussions that have around that. But don't get your take on the event. You guys, you're building a business. The minute cyber involved in public sector. This is commercial private partnership. Public relations coming together. Yeah. Your models are sharing so bringing public and private together important. >> Now that's exactly right. And it's really great to be here with eight of us were really close partner of AWS is we'll work with them our entire back in today. Runs on AWS really need opportunity. Get into the ecosystem, meet some of the folks that are working that we might work with my partner but to deliver a great product, right? And you're seeing a lot of people move to cloud, right? And so you know some of the big announcement that are happening here today. We're willing. We're looking to partner up with eight of us and be a first time provider for some key new Proactiv elves. AWS is launching in their own platform here today. So that's a really neat thing for us to be partnered up with this thing. Awesome organization. I'm doing some of >> the focus areas around reinforcing your party with Amazon shares for specifics. >> Yes. So I don't know whether they announced this capability where they're doing the announcement yesterday or today. So I forget which one so I'll leave that leave that leave that once pursued peace out. But the main thing is, they're announcing couple of new technology plays way our launch party with them on the civility place. So we're gonna be able to do what we were only wanted to do on Prem. We're gonna be able to do in the cloud with AWS in the cloud formation so that we'll deliver the same kind of guy that would deliver on prime customers inside their own cloud environments and their hybrid environment. So it's a it's a it's a sea change for us. The company, a sea change for a is delivering that new capability to their customers and really be able to defend a cloud network the way you would nonpregnant game changer >> described that value, if you would. >> Well, so you know, one of the key things about about a non pregnant where you could do you could look at all the flows coming past you. You look at all the data, look at in real time and develop behavior. Lana looks over. That's what we're doing our own prime customers today in the cloud with his world who looked a lox, right? And now, with the weight of your capability, we're gonna be able to integrate that and do a lot Maur the way we would in a in a in a normal sort of on Prem environment. So you really did love that. Really? Capability of scale >> Wagon is always killed. The predictive analytics, our visibility and what you could do. And too late. Exactly. Right. You guys solve that with this. What are some of the challenges that you see in cloud security that are different than on premise? Because that's the sea, So conversation we've been hearing. Sure, I know on premise. I didn't do it on premises for awhile. What's the difference between the challenge sets, the challenges and the opportunities they provide? >> Well, the opportunities air really neat, right? Because you've got that even they have a shared responsibility model, which is a little different than you officially have it. When it's on Prem, it's all yours essential. You own that responsibility and it is what it is in the cloud. Its share responsible to cloud provider the data holder. Right? But what's really cool about the cloud is you could deliver some really interesting Is that scale you do patch updates simultaneously, all your all your back end all your clients systems, even if depending how your provisioning cloud service is, you could deliver that update in real time. You have to worry about. I got to go to individual systems and update them, and some are updated. Summer passed. Some aren't right. Your servers are packed simultaneously. You take him down, you're bringing back up and they're ready to go, right? That's a really capability that for a sigh. So you're delivering this thing at scale. It's awesome now, So the challenge is right. It's a new environment so that you haven't dealt with before. A lot of times you feel the hybrid environment governed both an on Prem in sanitation and class sensation. Those have to talkto one another, right? And you might think about Well, how do I secure those those connections right now? And I think about spending money over here when I got all seduced to spend up here in the cloud. And that's gonna be a hard thing precisely to figure out, too. And so there are some challenges, but the great thing is, you got a whole ecosystem. Providers were one of them here in the AWS ecosystem. There are a lot here today, and you've got eight of us as a part of self who wants to make sure that they're super secure, but so are yours. Because if you have a problem in their cloud, that's a challenge. Them to market this other people. You talk about >> your story because your way interviews A couple weeks ago, you made a comment. I'm a recovering lawyer, kind of. You know, we all laughed, but you really start out in law, right? >> How did you end up here? Yeah, well, the truth is, I grew up sort of a technology or myself. My first computer is a trash 80 a trs 80 color computer. RadioShack four k of RAM on board, right. We only >> a true TRS 80. Only when I know what you're saying. That >> it was a beautiful system, right? Way stored with sword programs on cassette tapes. Right? And when we operated from four Keita 16 k way were the talk of the Rainbow Computer Club in Santa Monica, California Game changer. It was a game here for 16. Warning in with 60 give onboard. Ram. I mean, this is this is what you gonna do. And so you know, I went from that and I in >> trouble or something, you got to go to law school like you're right >> I mean, you know, look, I mean, you know it. So my dad, that was a chemist, right? So he loved computers, love science. But he also had an unrequited political boners body. He grew up in East Africa, Tanzania. It was always thought that he might be a minister in government. The Socialist came to power. They they had to leave you at the end of the day. And he came to the states and doing chemistry, which is course studies. But he still loved politics. So he raised at NPR. So when I went to college, I studied political science. But I paid my way through college doing computer support, life sciences department at the last moment. And I ran 10 based. He came on climate through ceilings and pulled network cable do punch down blocks, a little bit of fibrous placing. So, you know, I was still a murderer >> writing software in the scythe. >> One major, major air. And that was when when the web first came out and we had links. Don't you remember? That was a text based browser, right? And I remember looking to see him like this is terrible. Who would use http slash I'm going back to go for gophers. Awesome. Well, turns out I was totally wrong about Mosaic and Netscape. After that, it was It was it was all hands on >> deck. You got a great career. Been involved a lot in the confluence of policy politics and tech, which is actually perfect skill set for the challenge we're dealing. So I gotta ask you, what are some of the most important conversations that should be on the table right now? Because there's been a lot of conversations going on around from this technology. I has been around for many decades. This has been a policy problem. It's been a societal problem. But now this really focus on acute focus on a lot of key things. What are some of the most important things that you think should be on the table for techies? For policymakers, for business people, for lawmakers? >> One. I think we've got to figure out how to get really technology knowledge into the hands of policymakers. Right. You see, you watch the Facebook hearings on Capitol Hill. I mean, it was a joke. It was concerning right? I mean, anybody with a technology background to be concerned about what they saw there, and it's not the lawmakers fault. I mean, you know, we've got to empower them with that. And so we got to take technologist, threw it out, how to get them to talk policy and get them up on the hill and in the administration talking to folks, right? And one of the big outcomes, I think, has to come out of that conversation. What do we do about national level cybersecurity, Right, because we assume today that it's the rule. The private sector provides cyber security for their own companies, but in no other circumstance to expect that when it's a nation state attacker, wait. We don't expect Target or Wal Mart or any other company. J. P. Morgan have surface to air missiles on the roofs of their warehouses or their buildings to Vegas Russian bear bombers. Why, that's the job of the government. But when it comes to cyberspace, we expect Private Cummings defending us everything from a script kiddie in his basement to the criminal hacker in Eastern Europe to the nation state, whether Russia, China, Iran or North Korea and these nation states have virtually a limited resource. Your armies did >> sophisticated RND technology, and it's powerful exactly like a nuclear weaponry kind of impact for digital. >> Exactly. And how can we expect prices comes to defend themselves? It's not. It's not a fair fight. And so the government has to have some role. The questions? What role? How did that consist with our values, our principles, right? And how do we ensure that the Internet remains free and open, while still is sure that the president is not is not hampered in doing its job out there. And I love this top way talk about >> a lot, sometimes the future of warfare. Yeah, and that's really what we're talking about. You go back to Stuxnet, which opened Pandora's box 2016 election hack where you had, you know, the Russians trying to control the mean control, the narrative. As you pointed out, that that one video we did control the belief system you control population without firing a shot. 20 twenties gonna be really interesting. And now you see the U. S. Retaliate to Iran in cyberspace, right? Allegedly. And I was saying that we had a conversation with Robert Gates a couple years ago and I asked him. I said, Should we be Maur taking more of an offensive posture? And he said, Well, we have more to lose than the other guys Glasshouse problem? Yeah, What are your thoughts on? >> Look, certainly we rely intimately, inherently on the cyber infrastructure that that sort of is at the core of our economy at the core of the world economy. Increasingly, today, that being said, because it's so important to us all the more reason why we can't let attacks go Unresponded to write. And so if you're being attacked in cyberspace, you have to respond at some level because if you don't, you'll just keep getting punched. It's like the kid on the playground, right? If the bully keeps punching him and nobody does anything, not not the not the school administration, not the kid himself. Well, then the boy's gonna keep doing what he's doing. And so it's not surprising that were being tested by Iran by North Korea, by Russia by China, and they're getting more more aggressive because when we don't punch back, that's gonna happen. Now we don't have to punch back in cyberspace, right? A common sort of fetish about Cyrus is a >> response to the issue is gonna respond to the bully in this case, your eggs. Exactly. Playground Exactly. We'll talk about the Iran. >> So So if I If I if I can't Yeah, the response could be Hey, we could do this. Let them know you could Yes. And it's a your move >> ate well, And this is the key is that it's not just responding, right. So Bob Gates or told you we can't we talk about what we're doing. And even in the latest series of alleged responses to Iran, the reason we keep saying alleged is the U. S has not publicly acknowledged it, but the word has gotten out. Well, of course, it's not a particularly effective deterrence if you do something, but nobody knows you did it right. You gotta let it out that you did it. And frankly, you gotta own it and say, Hey, look, that guy punch me, I punch it back in the teeth. So you better not come after me, right? We don't do that in part because these cables grew up in the intelligence community at N S. A and the like, and we're very sensitive about that But the truth is, you have to know about your highest and capabilities. You could talk about your abilities. You could say, Here are my red lines. If you cross him, I'm gonna punch you back. If you do that, then by the way, you've gotta punch back. They'll let red lines be crossed and then not respond. And then you're gonna talk about some level of capabilities. It can't all be secret. Can't all be classified. Where >> are we in this debate? Me first. Well, you're referring to the Thursday online attack against the intelligence Iranian intelligence community for the tanker and the drone strike that they got together. Drone take down for an arm in our surveillance drones. >> But where are we >> in this debate of having this conversation where the government should protect and serve its people? And that's the role. Because if a army rolled in fiscal army dropped on the shores of Manhattan, I don't think Citibank would be sending their people out the fight. Right? Right. So, like, this is really happening. >> Where are we >> on this? Like, is it just sitting there on the >> table? What's happening? What's amazing about it? Hi. This was getting it going well, that that's a Q. What's been amazing? It's been happening since 2012 2011 right? We know about the Las Vegas Sands attack right by Iran. We know about North Korea's. We know about all these. They're going on here in the United States against private sector companies, not against the government. And there's largely been no response. Now we've seen Congress get more active. Congress just last year passed to pass legislation that gave Cyber command the authority on the president's surgery defenses orders to take action against Russia, Iran, North Korea and China. If certain cyber has happened, that's a good thing, right to give it. I'll be giving the clear authority right, and it appears the president willing to make some steps in that direction, So that's a positive step. Now, on the back end, though, you talk about what we do to harden ourselves, if that's gonna happen, right, and the government isn't ready today to defend the nation, even though the Constitution is about providing for the common defense, and we know that the part of defense for long. For a long time since Secretary Panetta has said that it is our mission to defend the nation, right? But we know they're not fully doing that. How do they empower private sector defense and one of keys That has got to be Look, if you're the intelligence community or the U. S. Government, you're Clinton. Tremendous sense of Dad about what you're seeing in foreign space about what the enemy is doing, what they're preparing for. You have got to share that in real time at machine speed with industry. And if you're not doing that and you're still count on industry to be the first line defense, well, then you're not empowered. That defense. And if you're on a pair of the defense, how do you spend them to defend themselves against the nation? State threats? That's a real cry. So >> much tighter public private relationship. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And it doesn't have to be the government stand in the front lines of the U. S. Internet is, though, is that you could even determine the boundaries of the U. S. Internet. Right? Nobody wants an essay or something out there doing that, but you do want is if you're gonna put the private sector in the in the line of first defense. We gotta empower that defense if you're not doing that than the government isn't doing its job. And so we gonna talk about this for a long time. I worked on that first piece of information sharing legislation with the House chairman, intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers and Dutch Ruppersberger from Maryland, right congressman from both sides of the aisle, working together to get a fresh your decision done that got done in 2015. But that's just a first step. The government's got to be willing to share classified information, scaled speed. We're still not seeing that. Yeah, How >> do people get involved? I mean, like, I'm not a political person. I'm a moderate in the middle. But >> how do I How do people get involved? How does the technology industry not not the >> policy budgets and the top that goes on the top tech companies, how to tech workers or people who love Tad and our patriots and or want freedom get involved? What's the best approach? >> Well, that's a great question. I think part of is learning how to talk policy. How do we get in front policymakers? Right. And we're I run. I run a think tank on the side at the National Institute at George Mason University's Anton Scalia Law School Way have a program funded by the Hewlett Foundation who were bringing in technologists about 25 of them. Actually. Our next our second event. This Siri's is gonna be in Chicago this weekend. We're trained these technologies, these air data scientists, engineers and, like talk Paul's right. These are people who said We want to be involved. We just don't know how to get involved And so we're training him up. That's a small program. There's a great program called Tech Congress, also funded by the U. A. Foundation that places technologists in policy positions in Congress. That's really cool. There's a lot of work going on, but those are small things, right. We need to do this, its scale. And so you know, what I would say is that their technology out there want to get involved, reach out to us, let us know well with our partners to help you get your information and dad about what's going on. Get your voice heard there. A lot of organizations to that wanna get technologies involved. That's another opportunity to get in. Get in the building is a >> story that we want to help tell on be involved in David. I feel passion about this. Is a date a problem? So there's some real tech goodness in there. Absolutely. People like to solve hard problems, right? I mean, we got a couple days of them. You've got a big heart problems. It's also for all the people out there who are Dev Ops Cloud people who like to work on solving heart problems. >> We got a lot >> of them. Let's do it. So what's going on? Iron? Give us the update Could plug for the company. Keith Alexander found a great guy great guests having on the Cube. That would give the quick thanks >> so much. So, you know, way have done two rounds of funding about 110,000,000. All in so excited. We have partners like Kleiner Perkins Forge point C five all supporting us. And now it's all about We just got a new co CEO in Bill Welshman. See Scaler and duo. So he grew Z scaler. $1,000,000,000 valuation he came in to do Oh, you know, they always had a great great exit. Also, we got him. We got Sean Foster in from from From Industry also. So Bill and Sean came together. We're now making this business move more rapidly. We're moving to the mid market. We're moving to a cloud platform or aggressively and so exciting times and iron it. We're coming toe big and small companies near you. We've got the capability. We're bringing advanced, persistent defense to bear on his heart problems that were threat analytics. I collected defence. That's the key to our operation. We're excited >> to doing it. I call N S A is a service, but that's not politically correct. But this is the Cube, so >> Well, look, if you're not, if you want to defensive scale, right, you want to do that. You know, ECE knows how to do that key down here at the forefront of that when he was in >> the government. Well, you guys are certainly on the cutting edge, riding that wave of common societal change technology impact for good, for defence, for just betterment, not make making a quick buck. Well, you know, look, it's a good business model by the way to be in that business. >> I mean, It's on our business cards. And John Xander means it. Our business. I'd say the Michigan T knows that he really means that, right? Rather private sector. We're looking to help companies to do the right thing and protect the nation, right? You know, I protect themselves >> better. Well, our missions to turn the lights on. Get those voices out there. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the lights. Keep covers here. Day one of two days of coverage. Eight of us reinforce here in Boston. Stay with us for more Day one after this short break.