>>Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Cube Live, AWS Reinvent 2022. This is our first day of three and a half days of wall to wall coverage on the cube. Lisa Martin here with Dave Valante. Dave, it's getting louder and louder behind us. People are back. They're excited. >>You know what somebody told me today? Hm? They said that less than 15% of the audience is developers. I'm like, no way. I don't believe it. But now maybe there's a redefinition of developers because it's all about the data and it's all about the developers in my mind. And that'll never change. >>It is. And one of the things we're gonna be talking about is app modernization. As customers really navigate the journey to do that so that they can be competitive and, and meet the demands of customers. We've got an alumni back with us to talk about that. AJ Patel joins us, the SVP and GM Modern Apps and Management business group at VMware. Aj, welcome back. Thank >>You. It's always great to be here, so thank you David. Good to see >>You. Isn't great. It's great to be back in person. So the VMware Tansu team here back at Reinvent on the Flow Shore Flow show floor. There we go. Talk about some of the things that you guys are doing together, innovating with aws. >>Yeah, so it's, it's great to be back after in person after multiple years and the energy level continues to amaze me. The partnership with AWS started on the infrastructure side with VMware cloud on aws. And when with tanza, we're extending it to the application space. And the work here is really about how do you make developers productive To your earlier point, it's all about developers. It's all about getting applications in production securely, safely, continuously. And tanza is all about making that bridge between great applications being built, getting them deployed and running, running and operating at scale. And EKS is a dominant Kubernetes platform. And so the better together story of tanu and EKS is a great one for us, and we're excited to announce some sort of innovations in that area. >>Well, Tanu was so front and center at VMware Explorer. I wasn't at in, in VMware Explorer, Europe. Right. But I'm sure it was a similar kind of focus. When are customers choosing Tanu? Why are they choosing Tanu? What's, what's, what's the update since last August when >>We, you know, the market settled into three main use cases. One is all about developer productivity. You know, consistently we're all dealing with skill set gap issues. How do we make every developer productive, modern developer? And so 10 is all about enabling that develop productivity. And we can talk quite a bit about it. Second one is security's front and center and security's being shifted left right into how you build great software. How do you secure that through the entire supply chain process? And how do you run and operationalize secure at runtime? So we're hearing consistently about making secure software supply chain heart of what our solution is. And third one is, how do I run and operate the modern application at scale across any Kubernetes, across any cloud? These are the three teams that are continuing to get resonance and empowering. All of this is exciting. David is this formation of platform teams. I just finished a study with Bain Consulting doing some research for me. 40% of our organization now have some form of a central team that's responsive for, for we call platform engineering and building platforms to make developers productive. That is a big change since about two years ago even. So this is becoming mainstream and customers are really focusing on delivering in value to making developers productive. >>Now. And, and, and the other nuance that I see, and you kinda see it here in the ecosystem, but when you talk about your customers with platform engineering, they're actually building their, they're pointing their business. They gonna page outta aws, pointing their businesses to their customers, right? Becoming software companies, becoming cloud companies and really generating new forms of revenue. >>You know, the interesting thing is, some of my customers I would never have thought as leading edge are retailers. Yeah. And not your typical Starbucks that you get a great example. I have an auto parts company that's completely modernizing how they deliver point of sale all the way to the supply chain. All built on ES at scale. You're typically think of that a financial services or a telco leading the pack. But I'm seeing innovation in India. I'm seeing the innovation in AMEA coming out of there, across the board. Every industry is becoming a product company. A digital twin as we would call it. Yeah. And means they become software houses. Yeah. They behave more like you and I in this event versus a, a traditional enterprise. >>And they're building their own ecosystems and that ecosystem's generating data that's generating more value. And it's just this cycle. It's, >>It's a amazing, it's a flywheel. So innovation continues to grow. Talk about really unlocking the developer experience and delivering to them what they need to modernize apps to move as fast and quickly as they want to. >>So, you know, I think AWS coin this word undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you think of a typical developer today, how much effort does he have to put in before he can get a single line of code out in production? If you can take away all the complexity, typically security compliance is a big headache for them, right? Developer doesn't wanna worry about that. Infrastructure provisioning, getting all the configurations right, is a headache for them. Being able to understand what size of infrastructure or resource to use cost effectively. How do you run it operationally? Cuz the application team is responsible for the operational cost of the product or service. So these are the un you know, heavy lifting that developers want to get away from. So they wanna write great code, build great experiences. And we've always talked about frameworks a way to abstract with the complexity. And so for us, there's a massive opportunity to say, how do I simplify and take away all the heavy lifting to get an idea into production seamlessly, continuously, securely. >>Is that part of your partnership? Because you think about a aws, they're really not about frameworks, they're about primitives. I mean, Warner Vos even talks about that in his, in his speech, you know, but, but that makes it more challenging for developers. >>No, actually, if you look at some of their initial investments around proton and et cetera work, they're starting to do, they're recognized, you know, PS is a bad, bad word, but the outcomes a platform as a service offers is what everybody wants. Just talking to the AWS leaders, responsible area, he actually has a separate build team. He didn't know what to call the third team. He has a Kubernetes team, he has a serverless team and has a build team. And that build team is everything above Kubernetes to make the developer productive. Right. And the ecosystem to bring together to make that happen. So I think AWS is recognizing that primitives are great for the elite developers, but if they want to get the mass scale and adoption in the business, it, if you will, they're gonna have to provide richer set of building blocks and reduce the complex and partnership like ours. Make that a reality. And what I'm excited about is there's a clear gap here, and t's the best platform to kind of fill that gap. Well, >>And I, I think that, you know, they're gonna double down triple, I just wrote about this double down, triple down on the primitives. Yes. They have to have the best, you know, servers and storage and database. And I think the way they, they, I call it taping the seams is with the ecosystem. Correct. You know, and they, nobody has a, a better ecosystem. I mean, you guys are, you know, the, the postage child for the ecosystem and now this even exceeds that. But partnering up, that's how they >>Continue to, and they're looking for someone who's open, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the first question is, you know, are you proprie or open? Because one of the things they're fighting against is the lock in. So they can find a friendly partner who is open source, led, you know, upstream committing to the code, delivering that innovation, and bring the ecosystem into orchestrated choreography. It's like singing a music, right? They're running a, running an application delivery team is like running a, a musical orchestra. There's so many moving parts here, right? How do you make them sing together? And so if Tan Zoo and our platform can help them sing and drive more of their services, it's only more valuable for them. And >>I think the partners would generally say, you know, AWS always talking about customer obsession. It's like becomes this bromine, you go, yeah, yeah. But I actually think in the field, the the sellers would say, yeah, we're gonna do what the customer, if that means we're gonna partner up. Yeah. And I think AWS's comp structure makes it sort >>Of, I learned today how, how incentives with marketplaces work. Yeah. And it is powerful. It's very powerful. Yeah. Right. So you line up the sales incentive, you line up the customer and the benefits, you line up bringing the ecosystem to drive business results and everybody, and so everybody wins. And which is what you're seeing here, the excitement and the crowd is really the whole, all boats are rising. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. And it's driven by the fact that customers are getting true value out of it. >>Oh, absolutely. Tremendous value. Speaking of customers, give us an example of a customer story that you think really articulates the value of what Tanzi was delivering, especially making that developer experience far simpler. What are some of those big business outcomes that that delivers? >>You know, at Explorer we had the CIO of cvs and with their acquisition of Aetna and CVS Health, they're transforming the, the health industry. And they talked about the whole covid and then how they had to deliver the number of, you know, vaccines to u i and how quickly they had to deliver on that. It talked about Tanu and how they leverage, leverage a Tanza platform to get those new applications out and start to build that. And Ro was basically talking about his number one prior is how does he get his developers more productive? Number to priority? How does he make sure the apps are secure? Number three, priority, how does he do it cost effectively in the world? Particularly where we're heading towards where, you know, the budgets are gonna get tighter. So how do I move more dollars to innovation while I continue to drive more efficiency in my platform? And so cloud is the future. How does he make the best use of the cloud both for his developers and his operations team? Right? >>What's happening in serverless, I, in 2017, Andy Chassy was in the cube. He said if AWS or if Amazon had to build all over again, they would build in, in was using serverless. And that was a big quote. We've mined that for years. And as you were talking about developer productivity, I started writing down all the things developers have to do. Yep. With it, they gotta, they gotta build a container image. They said they gotta deploy an EC two instance. They gotta allocate memory, they gotta fence off the apps in a virtual machine. They gotta run the, you know, compute against the app goes, they gotta pay for all that. So, okay, what's your story on, what's the market asking for in terms of serverless? Because there's still some people who want control over the run time. Help us sift through that. >>And it really comes back to the application pattern or the type you're running. If it's a stateless application that you need to spin up and spin down. Serverless is awesome. Why would I wanna worry about scaling it up in, I wanna set up some SLAs, SLIs service level objectives or, or, or indicators and then let the systems bring the resources I need as I need them. That's a perfect example for serverless, right? On the other hand, if you have a, a more of a workflow type application, there's a sequence, there's state, try building an application using serverless where you had to maintain state between two, two steps in the process. Not so much fun, right? So I don't think serverless is the answer for everything, but many use cases, the scale to zero is a tremendous benefit. Events happen. You wanna process something, work is done, you quietly go away. I don't wanna shut down the server started up, I want that to happen magically. So I think there's a role of serverless. So I believe Kubernetes and servers are the new runtime platform. It's not one or the other. It's about marrying that around the application patterns. I DevOps shouldn't care about it. That's an infrastructure concern. Let me just run application, let the infrastructure manage the operations of it, whether it's serverless, whether it's Kubernetes clusters, whether it's orchestration, that's details right. I I I shouldn't worry about it. Right. >>So we shouldn't think of those as separate architectures. We should think of it as an architecture, >>The continuum in some ways Yeah. Of different application workload types. And, and that's a toolkit that the operator has at his disposal to configure and saying, where does, should that application run? Should I want control? You can run it on a, a conveyance cluster. Can I just run it on a serverless infrastructure and and leave it to the cloud provider? Do it all for me. Sure. What, what was PAs? PAs was exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. Write the code once you do the rest. Yeah. Okay. Those are just elements of that. >>And then K native is kinda in the middle, >>Right? K native is just a technology that's starting to build that capability out in a standards way to make serverless available consistently across all clouds. So I'm not building to a, a lambda or a particular, you know, technology type. I'm building it in a standard way, in a standard programming model. And infrastructure just >>Works for me on any cloud. >>The whole idea portability. Consistency. >>Right. Powerful. Yep. >>What are some of the things that, that folks can expect to learn from VMware Tan to AWS this week at the >>Show? Yeah, so there's some really great announcements. First of all, we're excited to extend our, our partnership with AWS in the area of eks. What I mean by that is we traditionally, we would manage an EKS cluster, you visibility of what's running in there, but we weren't able to manage the lifecycle With this announcement. We can give you a full management of lifecycle of S workloads. Our customers have 400 plus EKS clusters, multiple teams sharing those in a multi-tenanted way with common policy. And they wanna manage a full life cycle, including all the upstream open source component that make up Kubernetes people. That ES is the one thing, it's a collection of a lot of open, open source packages. We're making it simple to manage it consistently from a single place on the security front. We're now making tons of service mesh available in the marketplace. >>And if you look at what service MeSHs, it's an overlay. It's an abstraction. I can create an idea of a global name space that cuts across multiple VPCs. I'm, I'm hearing at Amazon's gonna make some announcements around VPC and how they stitch VPCs together. It's all moving towards this idea of abstractions. I can set policy at logical level. I don't have to worry about data security and the communication between services. These are the things we're now enabling, which are really an, and to make EKS even more productive, making enterprise grade enterprise ready. And so a lot of excitement from the EKS development teams as well to partner closely with us to make this an end to end solution for our >>Customers. Yeah. So I mean it's under chasy, it was really driving those primitives and helping developers under continuing that path, but also recognizing the need for solutions. And that's where the ecosystem comes in, >>Right? And the question is, what is that box? As you said last time, right? For the super cloud, there is a cloud infrastructure, which is becoming the new palette, but how do you make sense of the 300 plus primitives? How do you bring them together? What are the best practices, patterns? How do I manage that when something goes wrong? These are real problems that we're looking to solve. >>And if you're gonna have deeper business integration with the cloud and technology in general, you have to have that >>Abstraction. You know, one of the simple question I ask is, how do you know you're getting value from your cloud investment? That's a very hard question. What's your trade off between performance and cost? Do you know where your security, when a lock 4G happens, do you know all the open source packages you need to patch? These are very simple questions, but imagine today having to do that when everybody's doing in a bespoke manner using the set of primitives. You need a platform. The industry is shown at scale. You have to start standardizing and building a consistent way of delivering and abstracting stuff. And that's where the next stage of the cloud journey >>And, and with the economic environment, I think people are also saying, okay, how do we get more? Exactly. We're in the cloud now. How do we get more? How do we >>Value out of the cloud? >>Exactly. Totally. >>How do we transform the business? Last question, AJ for you, is, if you had a bumper sticker and you're gonna put it on your fancy car, what would it say about VMware tan zone aws? >>I would say tan accelerates apps. >>Love >>It. Thank you so much. >>Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Appreciate it. Always great to be here. >>Pleasure. Likewise. For our guest, I'm Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube, the leader in emerging and enterprise tech coverage.

>>Live from Miami, Florida. It's the cube covering IBM's data and AI forum brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to downtown Miami. Everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental hotel covering the IBM data AI form hashtag data AI forum. My name is Dave Volante and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Ritika gunner is here. She's the vice president of data and AI expert labs and learning at IBM. Ritika, great to have you on. Again, always a pleasure to be here. Dave. I love interviewing you because you're a woman executive that said a lot of different roles at IBM. Um, you know, you've, we've talked about the AI ladder. You're climbing the IBM ladder and so it's, it's, it's, it's awesome to see and I love this topic. It's a topic that's near and dear to the cubes heart, not only women in tech, but women in AI. So great to have you. Thank you. So what's going on with the women in AI program? We're going to, we're going to cover that, but let me start with women in tech. It's an age old problem that we've talked about depending on, you know, what statistic you look at. 15% 17% of, uh, of, of, of the industry comprises women. We do a lot of events. You can see it. Um, let's start there. >>Well, obviously the diversity is not yet there, right? So we talk about women in technology, um, and we just don't have the representation that we need to be able to have. Now when it comes to like artificial intelligence, I think the statistic is 10 to 15% of the workforce today in AI is female. When you think about things like bias and ethicacy, having the diversity in terms of having male and female representation be equal is absolutely essential so that you're creating fair AI, unbiased AI, you're creating trust and transparency, set of capabilities that really have the diversity in backgrounds. >>Well, you work for a company that is as chairman and CEO, that's, that's a, that's a woman. I mean IBM generally, you know, we could see this stuff on the cube because IBM puts women on a, we get a lot of women customers that, that come on >>and not just because we're female, because we're capable. >>Yeah. Well of course. Right. It's just because you're in roles where you're spokespeople and it's natural for spokespeople to come on a forum like this. But, but I have to ask you, with somebody inside of IBM, a company that I could say the test to relative to most, that's pretty well. Do you feel that way or do you feel like even a company like IBM has a long way to go? >>Oh, um, I personally don't feel that way and I've never felt that to be an issue. And if you look at my peers, um, my um, lead for artificial intelligence, Beth Smith, who, you know, a female, a lot of my peers under Rob Thomas, all female. So I have not felt that way in terms of the leadership team that I have. Um, but there is a gap that exists, not necessarily within IBM, but in the community as a whole. And I think it goes back to you want to, you know, when you think about data science and artificial intelligence, you want to be able to see yourself in the community. And while there's only 10 to 15% of females in AI today, that's why IBM has created programs such as women AI that we started in June because we want strong female leaders to be able to see that there are, is great representation of very technical capable females in artificial intelligence that are doing amazing things to be able to transform their organizations and their business model. >>So tell me more about this program. I understand why you started it started in June. What does it entail and what's the evolution of this? >>So we started it in June and the idea was to be able to get some strong female leaders and multiple different organizations that are using AI to be able to change their companies and their business models and really highlight not just the journey that they took, but the types of transformations that they're doing and their organizations. We're going to have one of those events tonight as well, where we have leaders from Harley Davidson in Miami Dade County coming to really talk about not only what was their journey, but what actually brought them to artificial intelligence and what they're doing. And I think Dave, the reason that's so important is you want to be able to understand that those journeys are absolutely approachable. They're doable by any females that are out there. >>Talk about inherent bias. The humans are biased and if you're developing models that are using AI, there's going to be inherent bias in those models. So talk about how to address that and why is it important for more diversity to be injected into those models? >>Well, I think a great example is if you took the data sets that existed even a decade ago, um, for the past 50 years and you created a model that was to be able to predict whether to give loans to certain candidates or not, all things being equal, what would you find more males get these loans than females? The inherent data that exists has bias in it. Even from the history based on what we've had yet, that's not the way we want to be able to do things today. You want to be able to identify that bias and say all things being equal, it is absolutely important that regardless of whether you are a male or a female, you want to be able to give that loan to that person if they have all the other qualities that are there. And that's why being able to not only detect these things but have the diversity and the kinds of backgrounds of people who are building AI who are deploying this AI is absolutely critical. >>So for the past decade, and certainly in the past few years, there's been a light shined on this topic. I think, you know, we were at the Grace Hopper conference when Satya Nadella stuck his foot in his mouth and it said, Hey, it's bad karma for you know, if you feel like you're underpaid to go complain. And the women in the audience like, dude, no way. And he, he did the right thing. He goes, you know what, you're right. You know, any, any backtrack on that? And that was sort of another inflection point. But you talk about the women in, in AI program. I was at a CDO event one time. It was I and I, an IBM or had started the data divas breakfast and I asked, can I go? They go, yeah, you can be the day to dude. Um, which was, so you're seeing a lot of initiatives like this. My question is, are they having the impact that you would expect and that you want to have? >>I think they absolutely are. Again, I mean, I'll go back to, um, I'll give you a little bit of a story. Um, you know, people want to be able to relate and see that they can see themselves in these females leaders. And so we've seen cases now through our events, like at IBM we have a program called grow, which is really about helping our female lead female. Um, technical leaders really understand that they can grow, they can be nurtured, and they have development programs to help them accelerate where they need to be on their technical programs. We've absolutely seen a huge impact from that from a technology perspective. In terms of more females staying in technology wanting to go in the, in those career paths as another story. I'll, I'll give you kind of another kind of point of view. Um, Dave and that is like when you look at where it starts, it starts a lot earlier. >>So I have a young daughter who a year, year and a half ago when I was doing a lot of stuff with Watson, she would ask me, you know, not only what Watson's doing, but she would say, what does that mean for me mom? Like what's my job going to be? And if you think about the changes in technology and cultural shifts, technology and artificial intelligence is going to impact every job, every industry, every role that there is out there. So much so that I believe her job hasn't been invented yet. And so when you think about what's absolutely critical, not only today's youth, but every person out there needs to have a foundational understanding, not only in the three RS that you and I know from when we grew up have reading, writing and arithmetic, we need to have a foundational understanding of what it means to code. And you know, having people feel confident, having young females feel confident that they can not only do that, that they can be technical, that they can understand how artificial intelligence is really gonna impact society. And the world is absolutely critical. And so these types of programs that shed light on that, that help bridge that confidence is game changing. >>Well, you got kids, I >>got kids, I have daughters, you have daughter. Are they receptive to that? So, um, you know, I think they are, but they need to be able to see themselves. So the first time I sent my daughter to a coding camp, she came back and said, not for me mom. I said, why? Because she's like, all the boys, they're coding in their Minecraft area. Not something I can relate to. You need to be able to relate and see something, develop that passion, and then mix yourself in that diverse background where you can see the diversity of backgrounds. When you don't have that diversity and when you can't really see how to progress yourself, it becomes a blocker. So as she started going to grow star programs, which was something in Austin where young girls coded together, it became something that she's really passionate about and now she's Python programming. So that's just an example of yes, you need to be able to have these types of skills. It needs to start early and you need to have types of programs that help enhance that journey. >>Yeah, and I think you're right. I think that that is having an impact. My girls who code obviously as a some does some amazing work. My daughters aren't into it. I try to send them to coder camp too and they don't do it. But here's my theory on that is that coding is changing and, and especially with artificial intelligence and cognitive, we're a software replacing human skills. Creativity is going to become much, much more important. My daughters are way more creative than my sons. I shouldn't say that, but >>I think you just admitted that >>they, but, but in a way they are. I mean they've got amazing creativity, certainly more than I am. And so I see that as a key component of how coding gets done in the future, taking different perspectives and then actually codifying them. Your, your thoughts on that. >>Well there is an element of understanding like the outcomes that you want to generate and the outcomes really is all about technology. How can you imagine the art of the possible with technology? Because technology alone, we all know not useful enough. So understanding what you do with it, just as important. And this is why a lot of people who are really good in artificial intelligence actually come from backgrounds that are philosophy, sociology, economy. Because if you have the culture of curiosity and the ability to be able to learn, you can take the technology aspects, you can take those other aspects and blend them together. So understanding the problem to be solved and really marrying that with the technological aspects of what AI can do. That's how you get outcomes. >>And so we've, we've obviously talking in detail about women in AI and women in tech, but it's, there's data that shows that diversity drives value in so many different ways. And it's not just women, it's people of color, it's people of different economic backgrounds, >>underrepresented minorities. Absolutely. And I think the biggest thing that you can do in an organization is have teams that have that diverse background, whether it be from where they see the underrepresented, where they come from, because those differences in thought are the things that create new ideas that really innovate, that drive, those business transformations that drive the changes in the way that we do things. And so having that difference of opinion, having healthy ways to bring change and to have conflict, absolutely essential for progress to happen. >>So how did you get into the tech business? What was your background? >>So my background was actually, um, a lot in math and science. And both of my parents were engineers. And I have always had this unwavering, um, need to be able to marry business and the technology side and really figure out how you can create the art of the possible. So for me it was actually the creativity piece of it where you could create something from nothing that really drove me to computer science. >>Okay. So, so you're your math, uh, engineer and you ended up in CS, is that right? >>Science. Yeah. >>Okay. So you were coded. Did you ever work as a programmer? >>Absolutely. My, my first years at IBM were all about coding. Um, and so I've always had a career where I've coded and then I've gone to the field and done field work. I've come back and done development and development management, gone back to the field and kind of seen how that was actually working. So personally for me, being able to create and work with clients to understand how they drive value and having that back and forth has been a really delightful part. And the thing that drives me, >>you know, that's actually not an uncommon path for IBM. Ours, predominantly male IBM, or is in the 50 sixties and seventies and even eighties. Who took that path? They started out programming. Um, I just think, trying to think of some examples. I know Omar para, who was the CIO of Aetna international, he started out coding at IBM. Joe Tucci was a programmer at IBM. He became CEO of EMC. It was a very common path for people and you took the same path. That's kind of interesting. Why do you think, um, so many women who maybe maybe start in computer science and coding don't continue on that path? And what was it that sort of allowed you to break through that barrier? >>No, I'm not sure why most women don't stay with it. But for me, I think, um, you know, I, I think that every organization today is going to have to be technical in nature. I mean, just think about it for a moment. Technology impacts every part of every type of organization and the kinds of transformation that happens. So being more technical as leaders and really understanding the technology that allows the kinds of innovations and business for informations is absolutely essential to be able to see progress in a lot of what we're doing. So I think that even general CXOs that you see today have to be more technically acute to be able to do their jobs really well and marry those business outcomes with what it fundamentally means to have the right technology backbone. >>Do you think a woman in the white house would make a difference for young people? I mean, part of me says, yeah, of course it would. Then I say, okay, well some examples you can think about Margaret Thatcher in the UK, Angela Merkel, and in Germany it's still largely male dominated cultures, but I dunno, what do you think? Maybe maybe that in the United States would be sort of the, >>I'm not a political expert, so I wouldn't claim to answer that, but I do think more women in technology, leadership role, CXO leadership roles is absolutely what we need. So, you know, politics aside more women in leadership roles. Absolutely. >>Well, it's not politics is gender. I mean, I'm independent, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, right? Absolutely. Oh yeah. Well, companies, politics. I mean you certainly see women leaders in a, in Congress and, and the like. Um, okay. Uh, last question. So you've got a program going on here. You have a, you have a panel that you're running. Tell us more about. >>Well this afternoon we'll be continuing that from women leaders in AI and we're going to do a panel with a few of our clients that really have transformed their organizations using data and artificial intelligence and they'll talk about like their backgrounds in history. So what does it actually mean to come from? One of, one of the panelists actually from Miami Dade has always come from a technical background and the other panelists really etched in from a non technical background because she had a passion for data and she had a passion for the technology systems. So we're going to go through, um, how these females actually came through to the journey, where they are right now, what they're actually doing with artificial intelligence in their organizations and what the future holds for them. >>I lied. I said, last question. What is, what is success for you? Cause I, I would love to help you achieve that. That objective isn't, is it some metric? Is it awareness? How do you know it when you see it? >>Well, I think it's a journey. Success is not an endpoint. And so for me, I think the biggest thing I've been able to do at IBM is really help organizations help businesses and people progress what they do with technology. There's nothing more gratifying than like when you can see other organizations and then what they can do, not just with your technology, but what you can bring in terms of expertise to make them successful, what you can do to help shape their culture and really transform. To me, that's probably the most gratifying thing. And as long as I can continue to do that and be able to get more acknowledgement of what it means to have the right diversity ingredients to do that, that success >>well Retika congratulations on your success. I mean, you've been an inspiration to a number of people. I remember when I first saw you, you were working in group and you're up on stage and say, wow, this person really knows her stuff. And then you've had a variety of different roles and I'm sure that success is going to continue. So thanks very much for coming on the cube. You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break, we're here covering the IBM data in a AI form from Miami right back.

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering IBM Think 2019. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back, we're here at Moscone North. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day four of our wall to wall coverage of IBM the Think. The second annual IBM Think, first year at Moscone. Dave Vellante here with Stu Miniman. Eric Herzog is here, he's the CMO of IBM Storage and Sam Werner is the VP of Offering Management for Storage Software at IBM. Guys welcome back to theCUBE. Always good to see ya both. >> Thanks >> Thank you. >> So we were joking yesterday and today, of course multi cloud, the clouds opened, it's been raining, it's been sunny today, so multi cloud is all the rage. Evidently you guys have done some work in multi cloud. Some research that you can share with us. >> Yeah, so couple things. First of all, the storage vision in multi cloud at IBM for years. We work with all the cloud providers including IBM cloud, but we work with Amazon and we work with Azure, we work with Google cloud and in fact our Spectrum Protect, modern data protection product, has about 350 small and medium cloud providers across the world that use it for the engine for their back up as a service. So we've been doing that for a long time, but I think what you're getting is, what we found in a survey multi cloud and I actually had had a panel yesterday and all three of my panelists, including Aetna, use a minimum of five different public cloud providers. So what we're seeing is hybrid is a subset of that, right? On and off, but even if someone is saying, I'm using cloud providers, they're using between five and 10, not counting software as a service because many of the people in the survey didn't realize software as a service is theoretically a type of cloud deployment, right? >> So that's obviously not just the big three or the big five, we're talking about a lot of small guys. Some of the guys maybe you could have used in your Spectrum Protect for back up, local cloud providers, right? And then add sas to that, you could probably double or triple it, right? >> Right, well we've have been very successful with sas providers so for example, one of people on the panel, a company called Follett, they're a privately held, in the mid close to a billion dollars, they provide services to universities and school districts and they have a software package for universities for the bookstores to manage the textbooks and another software as a service for school districts across the United States. They have 1,500 and it's all software service. No on prem licensing and that's an example. That's in my mind, that's a cloud deployment, right? >> Ginni talked Tuesday about chapter two how chapter one was kind of, I call it commodity cloud, but you know, apps that are customer facing, chapter two, a lot of chapter two anyways, is going to be about hybrid and multi cloud. I feel like to date it's largely been, not necessarily a purposeful strategy to go multi cloud, it's just we're multi vendor. Do you see customers actually starting to think about a multi cloud strategy? If so, what's behind that and then more specifically, what are you guys doing from a software stand point to support that? >> Yeah, so in the storage space where we are, we find customers are now trying to come up with a data management strategy in a multi cloud model, especially as they want to bring all their data together to come up with insights. So as they start wanting to build an AI strategy and extend what they're doing with analytics and try to figure out how to get value out of the data they're building a model that's able to consolidate the data, allow them to ingest it and then actually build out AI models that can gain insights from it. So for our software portfolio, we're working with the different types of service providers. We're working closely with all the big cloud providers and getting our software out there and giving our customers flexible ways to move and manage their data between the clouds and also have clear visibility into all the data so they can bring it together. >> You know, I wonder sort of what the catalyst is there? I wrote an article that's going up on SiliconANGLE later and I talked about how the first phase was kind of tire kicking of cloud and then when the down turn hit, people went from capex to opex. It was sort of a CFO mandate and then coming out of the down turn, the lines of business were like, whoa agility, I love this. So shadow IT and then IT sort of bought in and said, "we got to clean up this mess." and that seems to be why, at least one catalyst, for companies saying, "hey, we want a single data management strategy." Are you seeing that or is there more to it? >> Well I think first of all, we're absolutely seeing it and there's a lot of drivers behind it There's absolutely IT realizing they need to get control over this again. >> Governance, compliance, security, edix >> And think about all the new regulations. GDPR's had a huge impact. All a sudden, these IT organizations need to really track the data and be able to take action on it and now you have all these new roles in organizations, like data scientists who want to get their hands on data. How do you make sure that you have governance models around that data to ensure you're not handing them things like pi? So they realized very quickly that they need to have much better control. The other thing you've seen is, the rise of the vulnerabilities. You see much more public attacks on data. You've seen C level executives lose their jobs over this. So there's a lot more stress about how we're keeping all this data safe. >> You're right. Boards are gettin' flipped and it's a big, big risk these days >> Well the other thing you're seeing is legal issues. Canada, the data has to stay in Canada. So if you're multi national and you're a Japanese company, all your Canadian offices, the data has to be some cloud of ours got an office in Canada. So if you're a Japanese headquarter company, using NTT cloud, then you got to use IBM or Amazon or Azure, 'cause you have to have a data center inside the country just to have the cloud data. You also have shier maturity in the market. I would argue, the cloud used to be called the web and before it was the web, it was called the internet and so now that you're doing that, what happens in the bigger companies, procurement is involved, just the way they've been involved in storage servers and networking for a long time. Great you're using CISCO for the network. You did get a quote from HP or using IBM storage, but make sure you get at least one other quote so as that influences aside from definitely getting the control is when procurement get involved, everything goes out for RFP or RFQ or at ten dure, as they say in Europe and you have to have multiple vendors and you sometimes may end up for purely, we need the way to club 'em on price so we need IBM cloud and Microsoft so we can keep 'em honest. So when everyone rushed the cloud, they didn't necessarily do that, but now that it's maturing >> Yeah, it's a sign of maturity. >> It's a sign of maturity that people want to control pricing. >> Alright, so one of the other big themes we've been talking a lot about this week is AI. So Eric talks about, when we roll back the clock, I think back to the storage world, we've been talking about intelligence in storage for longer than my career. So Sam, maybe you can tell us what's different about AI in storage than the intelligence we've been talking and what's the latest about how AI fits into the portfolio? >> Yeah, that's a great question and actually a lot of times we talk about AI and how storage is really important to make the data available for AI, but we're also embedding AI in our storage products. If you think about it, if you have a problem with your storage product, you don't just take down one application. You can take down an entire company, so you've got to make sure your storage is really resilient. So we're building AI in that can actually predict failures before they happen so that our storage never takes any outages or has any down time. We can also predict by looking at behavior out in the network, we can predict or identify issues that a host might be causing on the network and proactively tell a customer before they get the call that the applications are slowing down and we can point out exactly which host is causing the problem. So we're actually proactively finding problems out on the storage network before they become an issue. >> Yeah and Eric, what is it about the storage portfolio that IBM has that makes it a good solution for customers that are deploying AI as an application in use cases? >> Yeah so we look at all, so one is AI, in the box if you will, in the array and we've done a ton of work there, but the other is as the underlying foundation for AI workloads and applications so a couple things. Clearly, AI often is performance dependent and we're focused on all flash. Second thing as Sam already put it out, resilience and availability. If you're going to use AI in an automotive factory to control the supply chain and to control the actual factory floor, you can't have it go down because they could be out tens of millions, hundreds of millions of year just for that day of building Mercedes or Toyotas or whatever they're building if you have an automated factory. The other areas we've created what we call, the data pipeline and it involves three, four members of our storage software family. Our Spectrum Scale, a highly parallel file system that allows incredible performance for AI. Our Spectrum Discover which allows you to use meta data which is information about the data to more accurately plan and the AI software from any vendor can use an API and go in and see this meta data information to make the AI software more efficient that they would use. Our IBM Cloud Object Storage and our Spectrum Archive, you have to archive the data, but easily bring it back because AI is like a human. We are, smart humans are learning non-stop, whether you're five, whether you're 25, or whether you're 75, you're always learning. You read the newspaper, you see of course theCUBE and you learn new things, but you're always comparing that to what you used to know. Are the Russians our friends or our enemies? It depends on your point in time. Do we love what's going on in Germany? It depends on your point in time. In 1944, I'd say probably not. Today you'd say, what a great Democratic country, but you have to learn and so this data pipeline, this loop, our software is on our storage arrays and allows it to be used. We'll even sell the software without our storage arrays for use on any AI server platform, so that softwares really the huge differentiator for us. >> So can you, as a follow up to that, can you address the programmability of your portfolio? Whether it's through software or maybe the infrastructure as well. Infrastructure, I'm thinking infrastructure's code. You mentioned you know API's. You mentioned the ability to go into like Spectrum Discover for example, access meta data. How programmable is your infrastructure and how are you enabling that? >> I mean across our entire portfolio, we build restful API's to make our infrastructure completely extensible. We find that more and more enterprises are looking to automate the deployment of the infrastructure and so we provide API's for programming and deploying that. We're also moving towards containerizing most of our storage products so that as enterprises move towards cubernetes type clusters, we work with both Red Hat and with our own ICP and as customers move towards those deployment models and automate the deployment of their clusters, we're making all of our storage's available to be deployed within those environments. >> So do you see an evolution of the role of a storage admin, from one that's sort of provisioning luns to one that's actually becoming a coder, maybe learning Python, learning how to interact through API's, maybe even at some point developing applications for automation? Is that happening? >> I think there's absolutely a shift in the skills. I think you've got skills going in two directions. One, in the way of somebody else to administer hardware and replace parts as they fail. So you have lower skilled jobs on that side and then I believe that yes, people who are managing the infrastructure have to move up and move towards coding and automating the infrastructure. As the amount of data grows, it becomes too difficult to manage it in the old manual ways of doing it. You need automation and intelligence in the storage infrastructure that can identify problems and readjust. For example, in our storage infrastructure, we have automated data placement that puts it on the correct tier. That use to be something a storage administrator had to do manually and figure out how to place data. Now the storage can do it themselves, so now they need to move up into the automation stack. >> Yeah, so we've been talking about automation and storage also for a lot of years. Eric, how are enterprises getting over that fear that either I'm going to lose my job or you know, this is my business we're talking about here. How do I let go and trust? I love, I saw downstairs, there was a in the automation booth for IBM, it was free the humans, so we understand that we need to go there. We can't not put automation with the scale and how things are moving, but what's the reality out in the field? >> So I think that the big difference is and this is going to sound funny, but the economic down turn of seven, eight and nine, when downturn hit and certainly was all over the IT press, layoff, layoff, layoff, layoff, layoffs, so we also know that storage is growing exponentially, so for example, if I'm Fortune 500 company x and I had 100 people doing storage across the planet. If I laid off 50 of them and now I'm recovered. I'm making tons of money, my IT budget is back up. I didn't go to the CIO and say, you can hire the 50 storage people back. You can hire 50 people back, but no more than five or six can be storage people. Everything else has to be dev ops or something else. So what that means is, they are managing an un-Godly amounts of more storage every year with essentially the same people they had in 2008 or maybe a tiny bit more. So what matters is, you don't manage a peta bite or in the old days, half a peta bite. Now, one storage admin or back up admin or anyone in that space, they want you to manage 20 peta bites and if you don't have automation, that will never happen. >> Stu and I were interviewing Steven Hill from KPMG yesterday and he was talking about the macro numbers show we're not (stutters) as globally and even in the US, we're not seeing productivity gains. I'm saying yeah, you're not looking at the storage business you know, right? Because if you look at anybody who's running storage, they're doing way more with much less, to your point. >> Which is why, so for example when Sam talked about our easy tier, we can tier, not only as AI base. So in the old days, when you guys weren't even born yet, when I was doing it. >> Well I don't know about that >> What was it? It was move the data after 90, so first it was manual movement, then it was set up something, a policy. Remember policy automation was the big deal 10 years ago? Automatically move the data when its 90, 60, or 30 days old. AI based, what we have an easy tier, automatically will determine what tier it should go on, whether when the data's hot or when the data's cold and on top of that, because we can tier over 440 arrays that are not IBM logo'd, multi vendor tiering, we can tier from our box to an EMC box. So if you have a flash array, you've got an old or all hard drive that you've moved into your back up in archive tier, we can automatically tier to that. We can tier from the EMC array out to the Cloud, but it's all done automatically. The admin doesn't do anything, it just says source and target and the AI does all the work. That's how you get the productivity that you're talking about, that you need in storage and back ups even worse because you got to keep everything now, which Sam mentioned GDPR, all these new regulations and the Federal Government its like keep the data forever. >> But in that case, the machine can determine whether or not it's okay to put it in the Cloud, if it's in Canada or Germany or wherever, the machine can adjudicate and make those decisions. >> And that's what the AI, so in that case you're using AI inside of the storage system versus what we talked about with our other software that makes our storage systems a great platform for other AI workloads that are not, if you will, AI for storage. AI for everything else, cars or hospitals or resume analysis. That's what the platform can, but we put all this AI inside of the system 'cause there aren't that big, giant, global, Fortune 500 has 55 storage admins and in 2007 or eight, they had 100, but they've quintupled the amount of storage easily if not 10x'd it, so who's going to manage that? Automation. >> Guys, good discussion. Not everyday, boring, old storage. It's talking about intelligence, real intelligence this time. Eric, Sam, thanks very much for coming to theCUBE. Great to see you guys again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. Alright, keep it right there everybody. Stu and I will be back with our next guest shortly, right after this break. John Furrier is also here. IBM Think, Day four, you're watching theCUBE. Be right back. (tech music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2019, brought to you by IBM. >> Hello everyone welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here at IBM Think 2019 in San Francisco, our exclusive coverage, day four, four days of coverage events winding down, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, our next guest, Eric Herzog, CUBE alumni, CMO of IBM storage and VP of storage channels, Eric great to see you wearing the Hawaiian shirt as usual. >> Great, I can't come to theCUBE and not wear the Hawaiian shirt. You guys give me too much of a heart attack. >> Love getting you on to get down and dirty on storage and the impact of Cloud and infrastructure. First, you gave a great talk yesterday to a packed house, I saw that on social media, great response, what's going on for you at the show, tell us. >> So the big focuses for us are around four key initiatives. One is multi-cloud particularly from a hybrid perspective and in fact, I had three presenters with me, panelists and users, all of them were using multiple public cloud providers and all of them had a private cloud. One of them also was a software as a service vendor, so clearly they're really monetizing it. So that's one, the second one is around AI, both AI that we use inside of our storage to make it more efficient and more cost effective for the end user, but also as the platform for AI work loads and applications. Cyber resiliency is our other big theme, we've got all kinds of security, yes everyone is used to of course the Great Wall of China protecting you and then of course chasing the bad guy down when they breach you, but when they breach you it'd sure be nice if everything had data at rest encryption, or when you tiered out to the cloud you knew that it was being backed up or tiered out fully encrypted or how about something that can help you with ransomware and malware. So we have that, and that's a storage product not a regular, you know what you think of from a security vendor. So those are the big things that we've been harking on at the show. >> One of the things that I've observed, you've been very active out in the field, we've seen you at a lot of different events, Cisco Live, others, you guys have had an interesting storage product portfolio, very broad and specific leadership categories, but you also have the ability to work with other partners. This has been a big part of your strategy, you get the channels. What is, how would you summarize the current story around IBM storage and systems, because it's now an ingredient part of other people's infrastructure with cloud storage then becomes a key equation, how would you describe the IBM storage posture, product portfolio, what are the key things? >> So I think the key thing from a portfolio perspective, while it looks broad it's really four things. Software defined storage which we also happened to have bet on on array so theoretically that's one product line, same exact software. Other vendors don't do that, they have an array pack and you buy the array but if you buy their software defined storage it's actually different software, for us it's the same software. Then we have modern data protection and then we have management playing. That's kind of it. I do think one of the big differentiator for us, is even though we're part of IBM, we have already been working with everyone any way. So as we talked about at Cisco Live, for Spectrum Protect alone, our modern data protection platform, we have 400 small and medium cloud service providers all over the world that their back up service is based on it, so even though IBM Cloud has their own cloud division theoretically, we're enabling the competition but we've had that story at IBM storage now for four years. >> So storage anywhere basically is the theme here, AI anywhere storage anywhere, I mean it's not the official tagline but that's the philosophy with software. >> And that's yeah, so even if you think look at AI. We have an AI reference architecture with the power product line, we also have an AI reference architecture with the Nvidia product line, and we're working on a third one right now with another major server vendor because we want our storage to be anywhere there's AI and anywhere there's a cloud, big medium or small. >> Alright, Eric let's tease that out a little bit because I had a great conversation with an IBM fellow yesterday and we think back ten years ago, when you talked about hybrid and multi cloud, when you talked about an application it's "Am I spanning between environments? "Am I bursting between environments?" And architectures just didn't work that way. Today microservices architecture, there's pieces of the solution that can live in lots of environments, Compute I can spin up almost anywhere at any time, data doesn't move and I need to worry about my data, I need to worry about security so there's certain things that multi cloud like data protection, cyber resiliency, those kind of ones need to live everywhere, but when I talk about storage, I'm not moving my storage and my persistent database all over the place. So help us kind of tease out as to what is the multi everywhere and what is the you know the data that the Compute's going to actually move to that data, help us squint through that a little bit. >> So let's do the storage part first. So most applications, workloads, and use cases that are either business critical or mission critical are going to stay on prem, doesn't mean you can't use a public cloud provider for overflow whether that be IBM or Amazon or Microsoft or like I said the 400 cloud providers that we sell to that are not IBM, so but you're still going to have this hybridness where the data is partially on prem and off prem, in that case you're going to be using the public cloud provider, and by the way we did a survey, IBM did, and when you're looking enterprise, so let's say companies that are three or four billion US and up, anywhere in the world, you're seeing that most of them are using five or six different public clouds, whether that be salesforce.com which really is sales enablement software as a service. We have a startup that we work with who uses IBM's flash system and they do cyber security as a service, that's their whole business. So all of this software vendors that now deliver not on prem but you know over the cloud. Then you've got regular public cloud providers for file, block, and object for example we not only support IBM Cloud object storage protocol, but S3. So we have customers that put data out in S3, we have customers that put it out on other clouds because as you know S3's become the de facto standard so all the mid to small cloud providers use it. So I think what you've got is hybrid cloud is a sort of a subset of multi cloud and then multi cloud what you're seeing is because of software as service could even be geographic issues, we have a lot of data centers at IBM Cloud so do the three major cloud providers, but we are not in all 212 countries so if you have the law like in Canada where the data has to physically stay within the premises of Canada, now we all happen to have data centers that are big enough, but that doesn't mean we have data centers in every country, so you have legal issues, you have applications what applications are good, that make sense, what about pricing, and as you know some big companies still buy regionally. >> Eric, one of the things I'd love to get your perspective on is the SAS providers because if we look at the storage market in many ways, you know there was like the threat of public cloud, but really you got to follow the application, follow the data and as SAS proliferation happens, your data is going to go with that, you know you have them as customers in a lot of environments, what are you seeing from the SAS providers, how do they choose what offerings they have and how do they look at their data center versus public cloud mix? >> So when you look at a SAS provider, they've got a couple of different parameters that they look at which is why we've been very successful. One is performance, they already know their subject to the vicissitudes of the cloud so you can't have any bottle neck in your core data center because you're serving that app up, and if it's too slow or it doesn't work right, then of course the end user will go buy a different piece of software from another SAS provider. Second one is availability, because you have no idea when wiki bomb theCUBE is going to turn on that service, it could be the middle of the night right? If you guys expand to Asia, you guys will be asleep but your guy in Australia will be using that software, so it can't ever go down, so availability. Resiliency, can it handle pounding. If CUBE wiki bomb becomes ginormous, and you buy all these other analyst firms and the next thing you know the biggest analyst firm in the world, if you have thousands of people guess what now you're hammering on that software, so it's got to be able to take that workload abuse, right? And that's the kind of thing, so they look for that. >> That's scale basically, scale is critical. >> Right, they cannot have any issues of resiliency or availability and performance so A: they're usually going all flash, some of them will buy like a tape or the older all hard drive arrays as a backup store, ideal for IBM cloud object storage but again the main thing they focus on is flash because they're serving up that software. >> Let me ask you a question, so I know you've been in this business for a long time, storage you know everything about the speeds and fees but also you've been a historian too, you're on the front edge. IBM has got a killer strategy with cloud private, doing very well with Openshift and Redhat acquisition, you're now poised to essentially bring cloud scale across multiple clouds and with AI, it really puts storage at the center of the action. How is storage now positioned and how should customers think about storage, because scale is table stakes, enabling developers to program infrastructure as code, how does storage and how has it changed and how are you guys positioned to take advantage of that? How would you kind of explain that to a customer? >> Yeah so I think there's a couple of changes, first of all you're looking for a storage vendor which should be us, but you're looking for a storage vendor that is always making sure, for example when micro services first came out and containers, okay great except when containers came out and it's still a problem, you don't have storage consistency whereas in a VM ware or a hyper V or you know KVM environment, you do. So when you move things around, you don't lose the dataset, well we have persistency storage. So the key thing that you want to look for is a storage vendor that will stay on that leading edge as you move. Our copy data manager has an API so the developers can spit up their own environments but use real data, so as you guys know well from your pasts that the last thing you want to do is have the dev ops guy be developing things on faux datasets, try to put it in production, and then the real dataset doesn't work, at the same time if they put it out to a public cloud provider you could have a legal or security breach, right? So by being able to take modern data protection, as an example, and not just to have grandfather, father son back up, we all remember that I remember it better than you guys since I'm older, but that's back up right? It's not back up any more, it's modern data protection. You need to be able to take the snapshot, the replica or the back up dataset and use it for development, so you want a storage vendor that's going to be on the leading edge of that. We've done that at IBM on the Kenner side, the modern data protection side, and we'll continue to the do that. The whole multi cloud thing, IBM as you know is now all about multi cloud, what Redhat's been in, the storage division of IBM has been working with Redhat for 15 years. Going to the Redhat summit every year, I know you guys do theCUBE from there sometimes. >> You're on, but this is software defined so at the end of the day a software defined bet with arrays have paid off. >> Yes. >> You'd say that would be kind of a key linchpin. >> I would argue that, while there's some hardware aspects to it, so for example our flash core modules give us a big differentiator from a flash perspective, in general the number one differentiator for a strong, powerful array vendor is actually the underlying software code. The RAID stack, what you can wrap around it, file block and object support, what could you enhance, our Spectrum discover, allowing you to use metadata about unstructured data whether that be in the file space of the object store. That allows the data scientist to dramatically reduce the time it takes to prep the data when they're doing either AI or an analytic workload, so we just saved them money but we're really a storage company that came up with something that a data scientist could use because we understand how storage is at the central foundation and how you could literally use the metadata for something actually valuable, not to a storage person because a data scientist is not the storage guy of course. >> Yeah and Eric I would love to get your feedback, what are some of those key discussions you're having with customers here at the show? We've been talking a lot this week digital transformation, AI into everything there, are those some of the themes? What are the struggles that really the enterprises of today are facing and how your group's helping them? >> So one of the big things is understanding that it's going to be multi cloud and so because we've already been the Switzerland of the storage industry and working with every cloud provider, all the big ones, including ones that compete with our own sister division, but all the little small ones too, right? And all the software as service vendors we work with that we're the safe bet, you don't have to worry about it. Because whoever you pick, or for a big enterprise, in fact I had Aetna on stage with me and he said he's using seven different clouds, one of which is their private cloud and then six different cloud providers they use, and he said not counting salesforce.com and I forgot the other name, so really if you count the softwares there, she really got like nine clouds. She said I use IBM cause I know it's going to work with whoever, and you're not going to say oh I don't work with this one or that one. So that's been obviously making sure everyone realizes that, the whole company is embracing it as you saw and what we're going to do obviously with Redhat and continue for them to participate with all of their existing customer base that they've been doing for years. >> So you see multi cloud and sweet spot, that highlights your value proposition, would you say that to be true? >> I would say that and then the second one is around AI. All the storage vendors including us have had AI sort of inside, what I'll call inside of the box, inside of the array and use that to make the array better, but now with AI being ubiquitous from a work load perspective, you have to have the right foundation underneath that, again performance resiliency availability, if you're going to use AI in a giant car factory, and it's going to run all of those machines, you better make sure the thing never fails because then the assembly line goes down and those things are hundreds of millions of dollars of build every day. So that's the kind of thing you got to look for, so AI's got to have the right platform underneath it as well. >> Eric you have some reporting from the field as you're out in the, doing a lot of talks a lot of customers, give it a couple of anecdotal examples of where the leading edge is in storage and where are use cases that would be a good tell sign of where this kind of multi cloud is going. Can you just give some examples of the use cases, situation, and kind of why is that relevant for where everyone will be going? Where is the puck going to be, so I can skate to where the puck is, as they say. >> So from a multi cloud perspective, A: you've got to deal with how your company is structured, if you have a divisionalized company or one that really lets the regions make their own buy decisions, then you may have NTT Cloud in Japan, you may have Ali Baba in China, you may have IBM Cloud Australia, and then you might have Amazon in Latin America. And as IT guys you got to make sure you're dealing with that, and embrace it. One of the things I think from an IT perspective is why I'm wearing the Hawaiian shirt, you don't fight the wave, you ride the wave. And that's what everyone's got to realize so, they're going to use multi cloud, and remember the cloud was the web was the internet, it's actually all the same stuff from a long time ago, the mid 90's, which also means now procurement's involved and when procurement's involved, what are they going to say to you? Did you get a bid from IBM Cloud, did you see that bid from Amazon and Microsoft? So it's changed the whole thing of, I can just go to any cloud I want to, now procurement's involved that even mid-size companies procurement says you did get another bid right, did you not? Which for server, storage, and network vendors that's been the way it's been for 35, 40 years. >> The bids are changing too, so what are the requirements now? Amazon has a cloud, they have storage, you have storage, but people have on premise they have multiple environments. If the world is one big data center, with multiple regions and locations, this is the resilience you spoke of, what's the new requirements as procurement gets involved because procurement isn't dictating the requirements, they're getting the requirements from the application work loads and the infrastructure, so what are the new requirements that you see? >> So I think the thing you're seeing is if you take cloud just a couple years ago, I'm going to put my storage out there, okay great, I need this kind of availability, ooh that's extra money, sorry Mr. Wikibomb, Mr. CUBE we got to charge you a little extra for that. Oh we need a certain amount of performance, oh that's a little extra. And then for heavy transactional work loads the data's constantly moving back and forth, oh we forgot to tell you that we're charging you every time you move the data in and every time you move the data out. So as you're putting together these RFPs you needs to be aware of that. >> Those are hidden costs. >> Those are hidden costs that are, I think the reason you're seeing such the ride of the hybrid is people went to public cloud and then someone in finance, or maybe even in the IT group sat down with a spread sheet and said "Oh my god, we could've just bought an IBM array "or someone else's array" and actually had less money even counting support, because all every time we're moving the data, but for archive, for back up we don't move the data around a lot, it's a great solution for anything. Then you have the whole factoring of software as a service, so part of that is the software itself, if you're going to go up against salesforce.com then whoever does, they better make sure the software's good, then on top of that again you negotiate with the software vendor, I need it globally, okay what's the fee for that? So I think the IT guys need to understand that with the ubiquity of the cloud, you've got to ask way more questions, in the storage array business, everyone's got five nines and almost everybody's got six nines, well way back when it was four nines then it was five and now it's six, so you don't ask anymore because you know it just changes right? And the cloud is still new enough and the whole software as a service is a different angle, and a lot of people don't even realize software as a service is cloud, but when you say that they go, what are you talking about, it's just I'm getting it over a service. Where do you think it comes from? A cloud data center. >> Well the trend is software defined, you guys are on that early. Congratulations, and don't forget the hardware, the high performance hardware as well, arrays and what not. So great job. Eric thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Great, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day four of our live coverage here in Moscone North, in San Francisco for IBM Think 2019. Great packed house here at IBM Think, back for more coverage after this short break. (electronic outro music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2018 brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to the live CUBE coverage. This is day three of VMworld 2018. We're live in Las Vegas this is theCUBE's special coverage. Our ninth year covering VMworld. Kicking off day three, we've got two sets. Our next guest, Brian Reagan, who's the CMO of Actifio, theCUBE alumni. Great to see you. Great company doing some great things on the marketing side. You guys taking a different approach than others. Let the product do the talking. Let the solution speak for itself. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. It's great to be back and, Dave, it's always a pleasure. It's great to be at VMworld. >> You guys, I don't want to say, a different approach, but you're here at VMworld. There's a lot of pomp and circumstance. There's a lot of big booths, a lot of glam, a lot of attention getting. You got to do that but you don't want to overspend on that. You really want to just be in the community. What's your strategy? How are you as a CMO going into a world that wants more content? They want more data. They want to get solutions built. They love the glam, but the meat and potatoes is what they want. >> Monday night we had an event at TopGolf and I was talking to a couple customers and they basically were all saying the same thing to me which was, I come to VMworld to basically collect squeezy balls for my kids. They're going back to school. I'm going to collect a lot of toys. I'm going to do the solution expo. Great, great opportunity to really breakthrough from a swag standpoint, but no one's coming here to necessarily research the company that they want to disrupt or transform their business around. What we believe for VMware and, quite frankly, just in general is this is a great place to engage with customers. They're all here. This is the IT, this is COMDEX 2018. We need to be here, but we don't necessarily need to be in a solutions exchange where it's just an arms race about swag. >> What's your relationship with VMware? How do you guys fit in the ecosystem? What's the value proposition? What is the Actifio relationship to the community? How do you guys walk that line and how do you deliver those solutions? >> Pretty much throw a rock and you'll hit a vendor out here who has a great VMware solution, right? We are no exception. Everyone does VMware. Quite frankly, it's actually really easy nowadays. There's zero differentiation. I hate to say it, but everyone does VMware the same way. There is really no disruption in this marketplace because everyone does VADP. Everyone does Snapshot. Quite frankly, what we major on and what we focus on is actually the workloads that are franchise critical to businesses, which really are databases. Yeah, they might run out of VM, but often times they run on physical machines. Let's focus on databases. If they happen to be VMware, great. You know what, we like everybody else has a great VMware solution, but it's easy. Let's focus on the hard stuff which is databases which run the business and dX is all around databases and applications that run the business. That's where we major on. That's where our value comes in. That's where our customers see the most value from Actifio. >> My take away is, five/ten years ago it was all about integration and that was a differentiation, who could get the SDK faster, >> Exactly right, yeah. >> And you say, we were, we own them and that app would be right there. Okay, fine. That's done, okay. Fast forward to 2018, what's your perspective on VMware, what they're doing, the market momentum. You mentioned databases. You see them with Amazon bringing database now on prem. A lot has changed. What's your perspective? >> I think VMware is really... You talk to any CIO, any IT leadership, VMware is a critical part of the conversation so I don't mean to, in any way, diminish the value that VMware brings to the enterprise. And actually they are enabling cloud in every enterprise today whether it's private, whether it's hybrid, whether it's I'm going to do public, but I'm going to do public in VMware in the Amazon Cloud. VMware is table stakes in terms of running mission critical applications. What we believe is the next level of integration is what's the app running in VMware, right? What is it Oracle? I'm running Oracle rack inside of VMware. I'm running SAP inside of VMware. That's the next level of integration that becomes the differentiation and, quite frankly, the value creation in a lot of these enterprises. >> How do you guys differentiate, John was talking about all the glam and all the noise, a lot of noise, tons of noise around data protection. You guys pioneered the whole copy data management space. Where are you seeing growth? Where's the momentum, maybe you can give some examples. >> 2/3 of our business is now actually leading with DevOps and cloud. The real lever there is time. People want more time back in their day and they want more time back because whether it's-- there was a great article that SearchITOperations published about Aetna where they have tens of multi-terabyte databases and, quite frankly, it breaks every piece of infrastructure that they had, but they want to be able to serve those multi-terabyte databases out to their developers within minutes, as opposed to weeks or months or however long it takes traditional operations. Let's serve that need. Let's solve the time problem and all of a sudden digital transformation becomes a reality. dX and continuous integration, continuous development is really easy when you're talking about megabyte-sized JSON files. When you talk about 100 terabyte databases, it becomes really hard. With Actifio, we solve that problem. Now, we're enabling dX at scale in these large enterprises. It's really a time problem. >> Aetna's a customer obviously. We heard a similar story from Live Nation, which is another customer, but go ahead, John, sorry. >> What's the drivers in this because this is a unique thing? Because databases, as we said on theCUBE here on our analysis, the battleground in cloud, on premise in cloud database is the crucial thing. Look at Amazon, they're going after Oracle. RDS, their relational database service, on VMware on premise. Amazon's never done that before so clearly the database is a hard nut to crack, one. Two, it's super important. It's the pacing item on all migrations, all activity. What's driving your business because you're targeting that, trying to improve ease of use, but what's the market force? Migration, developer scale? What are some of the things that are driving your business? >> Yes and yes, right? It's help me collapse my cycle time. Typically, the time to actually get a copy of data for a developer is measured in weeks or months. >> In the old way. >> In the old way. CICD is talking about a daily check-in. And daily check-in, weeks and months, it just doesn't jive. If I can actually collapse that down into, yes, no matter how big that database is, I can give it to you in a 15 minute, 30 minute SLA. >> The mismatch between data pipelining to developer need is a gap, huge problem that you solve. What about some of the consequences if that's not solved? >> What do people do to compromise the time problem? They subset. They give their developers, it's a 100 terabyte production database, they give them a terabyte or 1/2 a terabyte of actual subsetted data so they run their queries in development and they work great. Then they roll them into production, all of a sudden they break because 100 terabytes is a different animal. >> And that could be a terrible experience for the application where data has to drive all the value. So speed of data insertion into the application is the critical cloud negative and/or developer need. >> It drives quality. It drives customer satisfaction. It drives, quite frankly, in regulated industries, it drives compliance. >> I feel like the Geico commercial. Everybody knows that this is a problem. Why aren't people doing this? Is it just too hard? I mean, this is a card. What specifically do you guys have for IP? What makes it happen? What do you guys do? >> 57 patents later, we have cracked the code on how to do really application native virtualization of data and the ability to serve it up through workflows, through automation in some of the largest enterprises in the world. We are enterprise tested, battle tested. Quite frankly, the applications and data that serves the largest enterprises, that's where we shine. >> What are some of the value points you can point to anecdotally or publicly around the value your customers have gotten from having thae ability to have data addressable and almost in real-time for developers because there's got to be some new experiences or new capabilities that they're realizing. Can you share just some of things that come out of this? >> An IT leader in a major bank that you've heard of said to us after we went through the initial phase of deployment, you've just given me an extra quarter of development in every year. >> Extra quarter of time. >> Extra quarter of time. We've collapsed down and we now have five quarters of development cycles as opposed to four. That, quite frankly, if you put a dollar value on it is measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars. >> Developer productivity, any new cool things that have happened, top line revenue growth, any impact to applications? >> Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you think about what is the battle front now, whether it's online banking, whether it's retail, whether it's healthcare even. What is the battle front? It is your app, your phone, your mobile device. It is the ability to self-serve content, information and transactions. All of that is happening because people are transforming the way they're doing business around applications today. >> Customers are going to eat this up. You solve the holy grail problem. It's so obvious to us, but getting data in real-time, having speed and scale and relevance is super critical. How do you guys compare with the competition? Are you guys ahead? How do you guys compare versus other solutions? Are there anything like you guys? What's out in the marketplace? Share your perspective on the landscape on how you guys compare. >> You're asking a marketing guy how we compare to the competition. >> Of course you're going to say you blow them away? >> Of course, I have this very convenient chart that shows us being the leader compared to everybody. The reality is 3,000 customers, 37 countries, nine years in the marketplace. We have been there and done that at scale in the enterprise. Five of the top global 20 financial institutions. Four of the 10 energy companies in the world. Four of the 10 top retail organizations in the world. We have done it for the largest companies in the world and we continue to deliver value at scale in the enterprise. >> You said before hundreds of millions of value. That sounds like a lot and people might go, oh, but how do you do that? Your cloud and your devops which is all about agility and speed, if you take a net present value, a discounted cash flow, a break even or whatever curve you draw, and I think I heard three months, right? You compress that by a quarter and then look at the numbers, that's the value. >> Huge. >> So if it's $200 million in revenue, do the math. If it's $10 in revenue, okay, it's not going to be as much, but the companies that you're talking about, the industries, talking about big, big projects and a lot of revenue associated with them. You talked about cloud and devops, how is your business model cloud and devops? Can you talk about that in terms of the way we do business, customer to Actifio? >> Increasingly, cloud has been for us a place where all of these use cases are executed. As a result, the business model has been BYO. I'm going to buy a license from Actifio. I'm going to bring it to Amazon, Azure, Google, what have you. More and more we're seeing a mixture of marketplace transactions plus the traditional cloud marketplace. You mentioned Live Nation. They are in many ways way ahead of the curve in terms of just going wholesale. I'm out of the data center business. I'm all in on cloud and I'm just going to buy everything through the marketplace. Increasingly, we're seeing marketplace transactions becoming a relevant part of our business. The fact that we've integrated with the top six public cloud providers and increasingly we're going to expand out to Huawei and Alicloud and more, it's not just a destination to connect a use case. It is becoming a platform to conduct transactions as well. >> And a really important channel. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Brian, great to hear from you. Congratulations on your success. Love the business model. We've been saying on theCUBE, so many years, data's at the center and the time to get the data from any database or a database into the application speed is critical. That makes great value so thanks for doing that. Appreciate it. >> Thank you guys. Always a pleasure to be here. >> Check out Actifio. Of course, we're bringing the data to you in real-time here on theCUBE at VMworld. We're live in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us for more after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: New York City, it's the Cube covering CyberConnect 2017 brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is the Cube's live coverage in New York City's Grand Hyatt Ballroom for CyberConnect 2017 presented by Centrify. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of the Cube with my co-host this week is Dave Vellante, my partner and co-founder and co-CEO with me in SiliconAngle Media in the Cube. Our next guest is James Scott who is the co-founder and senior fellow at ICIT. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me. >> You guys are putting on this event, really putting the content together. Centrify, just so everyone knows, is underwriting the event but this is not a Centrify event. You guys are the key content partner, developing the content agenda. It's been phenomenal. It's an inaugural event so it's the first of its kind bringing in industry, government, and practitioners all together, kind of up leveling from the normal and good events like Black Hat and other events like RSA which go into deep dives. Here it's a little bit different. Explain. >> Yeah, it is. We're growing. We're a newer think tank. We're less than five years old. The objective is to stay smaller. We have organizations, like Centrify, that came out of nowhere in D.C. so we deal, most of what we've done up until now has been purely federal and on the Hill so what I do, I work in the intelligence community. I specialize in social engineering and then I advise in the Senate for the most part, some in the House. We're able to take these organizations into the Pentagon or wherever and when we get a good read on them and when senators are like, "hey, can you bring them back in to brief us?" That's when we know we have a winner so we started really creating a relationship with Tom Kemp, who's the CEO and founder over there, and Greg Cranley, who heads the federal division. They're aggressively trying to be different as opposed to trying to be like everyone else, which makes it easy. If someone wants to do something, they have to be a fellow for us to do it, but if they want to do it, just like if they want to commission a paper, we just basically say, "okay, you can pay for it but we run it." Centrify has just been excellent. >> They get the community model. They get the relationship that you have with your constituents in the community. Trust matters, so you guys are happy to do this but more importantly, the content. You're held to a standard in your community. This is new, not to go in a different direction for a second but this is what the community marketing model is. Stay true to your audience and trust. You're relied upon so that's some balance that you guys have to do. >> The thing is we deal with cylance and others. Cylance, for example, was the first to introduce machine learning artificial intelligence to get passed that mutating hash for endpoint security. They fit in really well in the intelligence community. The great thing about working with Centrify is they let us take the lead and they're very flexible and we just make sure they come out on top each time. The content, it's very content driven. In D.C., we have at our cocktail receptions, they're CIA, NSA, DARPA, NASA. >> You guys are the poster child of be big, think small. >> Exactly. Intimate. >> You say Centrify is doing things differently. They're not falling in line like a lemming. What do you mean by that? What is everybody doing that these guys are doing differently? >> I think in the federal space, I think commercial too, but you have to be willing to take a big risk to be different so you have to be willing to pay a premium. If people work with us, they know they're going to pay a premium but we make sure they come out on top. What they do is, they'll tell us, Centrify will be like, "look, we're going to put x amount of dollars into a lunch. "Here are the types of pedigree individuals "that we need there." Maybe they're not executives. Maybe they're the actual practitioners at DHS or whatever. The one thing that they do different is they're aggressively trying to deviate from the prototype. That's what I mean. >> Like a vendor trying to sell stuff. >> Yeah and the thing is, that's why when someone goes to a Centrify event, I don't work for Centrify (mumbles). That's how they're able to attract. If you see, we have General Alexander. We've got major players here because of the content, because it's been different and then the other players want to be on the stage with other players, you know what I mean. It almost becomes a competition for "hey, I was asked to come to an ICIT thing" you know, that sort of thing. That's what I mean. >> It's reputation. You guys have a reputation and you stay true to that. That's what I was saying. To me, I think this is the future of how things get done. When you have a community model, you're held to a standard with your community. If you cross the line on that standard, you head fake your community, that's the algorithm that brings you a balance so you bring good stuff to the table and you vet everyone else on the other side so it's just more of a collaboration, if you will. >> The themes here, what you'll see is within critical infrastructure, we try to gear this a little more towards the financial sector. We brought, from Aetna, he set up the FS ISAC. Now he's with the health sector ISAC. For this particular geography in New York, we're trying to have it focus more around health sector and financial critical infrastructure. You'll see that. >> Alright, James, I've got to ask you. You're a senior fellow. You're on the front lines with a great Rolodex, great relationships in D.C., and you're adivising and leaned upon by people making policy, looking at the world and the general layout in which, the reality is shit's happening differently now so the world's got to change. Take us through a day in the life of some of the things you guys are seeing and what's the outlook? I mean, it's like a perfect storm of chaos, yet opportunity. >> It really depends. Each federal agency, we look at it from a Hill perspective, it comes down to really educating them. When I'm in advising in the House, I know I'm going to be working with a different policy pedigree than a Senate committee policy expert, you know what I mean. You have to gauge the conversation depending on how new the office is, House, Senate, are they minority side, and then what we try to do is bring the issues that the private sector is having while simultaneously hitting the issues that the federal agency space is. Usually, we'll have a needs list from the CSWEP at the different federal agencies for a particular topic like the Chinese APTs or the Russian APT. What we'll do is, we'll break down what the issue is. With Russia, for example, it's a combination of two types of exploits that are happening. You have the technical exploit, the malicious payload and vulnerability in a critical infrastructure network and then profiling those actors. We also have another problem, the influence operations, which is why we started the Center for Cyber Influence Operations Studies. We've been asked repeatedly since the elections last year by the intelligence community to tell us, explain this new propaganda. The interesting thing is the synergies between the two sides are exploiting and weaponizing the same vectors. While on the technical side, you're exploiting a vulnerability in a network with a technical exploit, with a payload, a compiled payload with a bunch of tools. On the influence operations side, they're weaponizing the same social media platforms that you would use to distribute a payload here but only the... >> Contest payload. Either way you have critical infrastructure. The payload being content, fake content or whatever content, has an underpinning that gamification call it virality, network effect and user psychology around they don't really open up the Facebook post, they just read the headline and picture. There's a dissonance campaign, or whatever they're running, that might not be critical to national security at that time but it's also a post. >> It shifts the conversation in a way where they can use, for example, right now all the rage with nation states is to use metadata, put it into big data analytics, come up with a psychographic algorithm, and go after critical infrastructure executives with elevated privileges. You can do anything with those guys. You can spearfish them. The Russian modus operandi is to call and act like a recruiter, have that first touch of contact be the phone call, which they're not expecting. "Hey, I got this job. "Keep it on the down low. Don't tell anybody. "I'm going to send you the job description. "Here's the PDF." Take it from there. >> How should we think about the different nation state actors? You mentioned Russia, China, there's Iran, North Korea. Lay it out for us. >> Each geography has a different vibe to their hacking. With Russia you have this stealth and sophistication and their hacking is just like their espionage. It's like playing chess. They're really good at making pawns feel like they're kings on the chessboard so they're really good at recruiting insider threats. Bill Evanina is the head of counterintel. He's a bulldog. I know him personally. He's exactly what we need in that position. The Chinese hacking style is more smash and grab, very unsophisticated. They'll use a payload over and over again so forensically, it's easy to... >> Dave: Signatures. >> Yeah, it is. >> More shearing on the tooling or whatever. >> They'll use code to the point of redundancy so it's like alright, the only reason they got in... Chinese get into a network, not because of sophistication, but because the network is not protected. Then you have the mercenary element which is where China really thrives. Chinese PLA will hack for the nation state during the day, but they'll moonlight at night to North Korea so North Korea, they have people who may consider themselves hackers but they're not code writers. They outsource. >> They're brokers, like general contractors. >> They're not sophisticated enough to carry out a real nation state attack. What they'll do is outsource to Chinese PLA members. Chinese PLA members will be like, "okay well, here's what I need for this job." Typically, what the Chinese will do, their loyalties are different than in the west, during the day they'll discover a vulnerability or an O day. They won't tell their boss right away. They'll capitalize off of it for a week. You do that, you go to jail over here. Russia, they'll kill you. China, somehow this is an accepted thing. They don't like it but it just happens. Then you have the eastern European nations and Russia still uses mercenary elements out of Moscow and St. Petersburg so what they'll do is they will freelance, as well. That's when you get the sophisticated, carbonic style hack where they'll go into the financial sector. They'll monitor the situation. Learn the ins and outs of everything having to do with that particular swift or bank or whatever. They go in and those are the guys that are making millions of dollars on a breach. Hacking in general is a grind. It's a lot of vulnerabilities work, but few work for long. Everybody is always thinking there's this omega code that they have. >> It's just brute force. You just pound it all day long. >> That's it and it's a grind. You might have something that you worked on for six months. You're ready to monetize. >> What about South America? What's the vibe down there? Anything happening in there? >> Not really. There is nothing of substance that really affects us here. Again, if an organization is completely unprotected. >> John: Russia? China? >> Russia and China. >> What about our allies? >> GCHQ. >> Israel? What's the collaboration, coordination, snooping? What's the dynamic like there? >> We deal, mostly, with NATO and Five Eyes. I actually had dinner with NATO last night. Five Eyes is important because we share signals intelligence and most of the communications will go through Five Eyes which is California, United States, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. Those are our five most important allies and then NATO after that, as far as I'm concerned, for cyber. You have the whole weaponization of space going on with SATCOM interception. We're dealing with that with NASA, DARPA. Not a lot is happening down in South America. The next big thing that we have to look at is the cyber caliphate. You have the Muslim brotherhood that funds it. Their influence operations domestically are extremely strong. They have a lot of contacts on the Hill which is a problem. You have ANTIFA. So there's two sides to this. You have the technical exploit but then the information warfare exploit. >> What about the bitcoin underbelly that started with the silk roads and you've seen a lot of bitcoin. Money laundering is a big deal, know your customer. Now regulation is part of big ICOs going on. Are you seeing any activity from those? Are they pulling from previous mercenary groups or are they arbitraging just more free? >> For updating bitcoin? >> The whole bitcoin networks. There's been an effort to commercialize (mumbles) so there's been a legitimate track to bring that on but yet there's still a lot of actors. >> I think bitcoin is important to keep and if you look at the more black ops type hacking or payment stuff, bitcoin is an important element just as tor is an important element, just as encryption is an important element. >> John: It's fundamental, actually. >> It's a necessity so when I hear people on the Hill, I have my researcher, I'm like, "any time you hear somebody trying to have "weakened encryption, back door encryption" the first thing, we add them to the briefing schedule and I'm like, "look, here's what you're proposing. "You're proposing that you outlaw math. "So what? Two plus two doesn't equal four. "What is it? Three and a half? "Where's the logic?" When you break it down for them like that, on the Hill in particular, they begin to get it. They're like, "well how do we get the intelligence community "or the FBI, for example, to get into this iphone?" Civil liberties, you've got to take that into consideration. >> I got to ask you a question. I interviewed a guy, I won't say his name. He actually commented off the record, but he said to me, "you won't believe how dumb some of these state actors are "when it comes to cyber. "There's some super smart ones. "Specifically Iran and the Middle East, "they're really not that bright." He used an example, I don't know if it's true or not, that stuxnet, I forget which one it was, there was a test and it got out of control and they couldn't pull it back and it revealed their hand but it could've been something worse. His point was they actually screwed up their entire operation because they're doing some QA on their thing. >> I can't talk about stuxnet but it's easy to get... >> In terms of how you test them, how do you QA your work? >> James: How do you review malware? (mumbles) >> You can't comment on the accuracy of Zero Days, the documentary? >> Next question. Here's what you find. Some of these nation state actors, they saw what happened with our elections so they're like, "we have a really crappy offensive cyber program "but maybe we can thrive in influence operations "in propaganda and whatever." We're getting hit by everybody and 2020 is going to be, I don't even want to imagine. >> John: You think it's going to be out of control? >> It's going to be. >> I've got to ask this question, this came up. You're bringing up a really good point I think a lot of people aren't talking about but we've brought up a few times. I want to keep on getting it out there. In the old days, state on state actors used to do things, espionage, and everyone knew who they were and it was very important not to bring their queen out, if you will, too early, or reveal their moves. Now with Wikileaks and public domain, a lot of these tools are being democratized so that they can covertly put stuff out in the open for enemies of our country to just attack us at will. Is that happening? I hear about it, meaning that I might be Russia or I might be someone else. I don't want to reveal my hand but hey, you ISIS guys out there, all you guys in the Middle East might want to use this great hack and put it out in the open. >> I think yeah. The new world order, I guess. The order of things, the power positions are completely flipped, B side, counter, whatever. It's completely not what the establishment was thinking it would be. What's happening is Facebook is no more relevant, I mean Facebook is more relevant than the UN. Wikileaks has more information pulsating out of it than a CIA analyst, whatever. >> John: There's a democratization of the information? >> The thing is we're no longer a world that's divided by geographic lines in the sand that were drawn by these two guys that fought and lost a war 50 years ago. We're now in a tribal chieftain digital society and we're separated by ideological variation and so you have tribe members here in the US who have fellow tribe members in Israel, Russia, whatever. Look at Anonymous. Anonymous, I think everyone understands that's the biggest law enforcement honeypot there is, but you look at the ideological variation and it's hashtags and it's keywords and it's forums. That's the Senate. That's congress. >> John: This is a new reality. >> This is reality. >> How do you explain that to senators? I was watching that on TV where they're trying to grasp what Facebook is and Twitter. (mumbles) Certainly Facebook knew what was going on. They're trying to play policy and they're new. They're newbies when it comes to policy. They don't have any experience on the Hill, now it's ramping up and they've had some help but tech has never been an actor on the stage of policy formulation. >> We have a real problem. We're looking at outside threats as our national security threats, which is incorrect. You have dragnet surveillance capitalists. Here's the biggest threats we have. The weaponization of Facebook, twitter, youtube, google, and search engines like comcast. They all have a censorship algorithm, which is how they monetize your traffic. It's censorship. You're signing your rights away and your free will when you use google. You're not getting the right answer, you're getting the answer that coincides with an algorithm that they're meant to monetize and capitalize on. It's complete censorship. What's happening is, we had something that just passed SJ res 34 which no resistance whatsoever, blew my mind. What that allows is for a new actor, the ISPs to curate metadata on their users and charge them their monthly fee as well. It's completely corrupt. These dragnet surveillance capitalists have become dragnet surveillance censorists. Is that a word? Censorists? I'll make it one. Now they've become dragnet surveillance propagandists. That's why 2020 is up for grabs. >> (mumbles) We come from the same school here on this one, but here's the question. The younger generation, I asked a gentleman in the hallway on his way out, I said, "where's the cyber west point? "We're the Navy SEALS in this new digital culture." He said, "oh yeah, some things." We're talking about the younger generation, the kids playing Call of Duty Destiny. These are the guys out there, young kids coming up that will probably end up having multiple disciplinary skills. Where are they going to come from? So the question is, are we going to have a counterculture? We're almost feeling like what the 60s were to the 50s. Vietnam. I kind of feel like maybe the security stuff doesn't get taken care of, a revolt is coming. You talk about dragnet censorship. You're talking about the lack of control and privacy. I don't mind giving Facebook my data to connect with my friends and see my thanksgiving photos or whatever but now I don't want fake news jammed down my throat. Anti-Trump and Anti-Hillary spew. I didn't buy into that. I don't want that anymore. >> I think millennials, I have a 19 year old son, my researchers, they're right out of grad school. >> John: What's the profile like? >> They have no trust whatsoever in the government and they laugh at legislation. They don't care any more about having their face on their Facebook page and all their most intimate details of last night's date and tomorrow's date with two different, whatever. They just don't... They loathe the traditional way of things. You got to talk to General Alexander today. We have a really good relationship with him, Hayden, Mike Rogers. There is a counterculture in the works but it's not going to happen overnight because we have a tech deficit here where we need foreign tech people just to make up for the deficit. >> Bill Mann and I were talking, I heard the general basically, this is my interpretation, "if we don't get our shit together, "this is going to be an f'd up situation." That's what I heard him basically say. You guys don't come together so what Bill talked about was two scenarios. If industry and government don't share and come together, they're going to have stuff mandated on them by the government. Do you agree? >> I do. >> What's going to happen? >> The argument for regulation on the Hill is they don't want to stifle innovation, which makes sense but then ISPs don't innovate at all. They're using 1980s technology, so why did you pass SJ res 34? >> John: For access? >> I don't know because nation states just look at that as, "oh wow another treasure trove of metadata "that we can weaponize. "Let's start psychographically charging alt-left "and alt-right, you know what I mean?" >> Hacks are inevitable. That seems to be the trend. >> You talked before, James, about threats. You mentioned weaponization of social. >> James: Social media. >> You mentioned another in terms of ISPs I think. >> James: Dragnet. >> What are the big threats? Weaponization of social. ISP metadata, obviously. >> Metadata, it really depends and that's the thing. That's what makes the advisory so difficult because you have to go between influence operations and the exploit because the vectors are used for different things in different variations. >> John: Integrated model. >> It really is and so with a question like that I'm like okay so my biggest concern is the propaganda, political warfare, the information warfare. >> People are underestimating the value of how big that is, aren't they? They're oversimplifying the impact of info campaigns. >> Yeah because your reality is based off of... It's like this, influence operations. Traditional media, everybody is all about the narrative and controlling the narrative. What Russia understands is to control the narrative, the most embryo state of the narrative is the meme. Control the meme, control the idea. If you control the idea, you control the belief system. Control the belief system, you control the narrative. Control the narrative, you control the population. No guns were fired, see what I'm saying? >> I was explaining to a friend on Facebook, I was getting into a rant on this. I used a very simple example. In the advertising world, they run millions of dollars of ad campaigns on car companies for post car purchase cognitive dissonance campaigns. Just to make you feel good about your purchase. In a way, that's what's going on and explains what's going on on Facebook. This constant reinforcement of these beliefs whether its for Trump or Hillary, all this stuff was happening. I saw it firsthand. That's just one small nuance but it's across a spectrum of memes. >> You have all these people, you have nation states, you have mercenaries, but the most potent force in this space, the most hyperevolving in influence operations, is the special interest group. The well-funded special interests. That's going to be a problem. 2020, I keep hitting that because I was doing an interview earlier. 2020 is going to be a tug of war for the psychological core of the population and it's free game. Dragnet surveillance capitalists will absolutely be dragnet surveillance propagandists. They will have the candidates that they're going to push. Now that can also work against them because mainstream media, twitter, Facebook were completely against trump, for example, and that worked in his advantage. >> We've seen this before. I'm a little bit older, but we are the same generation. Remember when they were going to open up sealex? Remember the last mile for connectivity? That battle was won before it was even fought. What you're saying, if I get this right, the war and tug of war going on now is a big game. If it's not played in one now, this jerry rigging, gerrymandering of stuff could happen so when people wake up and realize what's happened the game has already been won. >> Yeah, your universe as you know it, your belief systems, what you hold to be true and self evident. Again, the embryo. If you look back to the embryo introduction of that concept, whatever concept it is, to your mind it came from somewhere else. There are very few things that you believe that you came up with yourself. The digital space expedites that process and that's dangerous because now it's being weaponized. >> Back to the, who fixes this. Who's the watchdog on this? These ideas you're talking about, some of them, you're like, "man that guy has lost it, he's crazy." Actually, I don't think you're crazy at all. I think it's right on. Is there a media outlet watching it? Who's reporting on it? What even can grasp what you're saying? What's going on in D.C.? Can you share that perspective? >> Yeah, the people that get this are the intelligence community, okay? The problem is the way we advise is I will go in with one of the silos in the NSA and explain what's happening and how to do it. They'll turn around their computer and say, "show me how to do it. "How do you do a multi vector campaign "with this meme and make it viral in 30 minutes." You have to be able to show them how to do it. >> John: We can do that. Actually we can't. >> That sort of thing, you have to be able to show them because there's not enough practitioners, we call them operators. When you're going in here, you're teaching them. >> The thing is if they have the metadata to your treasure trove, this is how they do it. I'll explain here. If they have the metadata, they know where the touch points are. It's a network effect mole, just distributive mole. They can put content in certain subnetworks that they know have a reaction to the metadata so they have the knowledge going in. It's not like they're scanning the whole world. They're monitoring pockets like a drone, right? Once they get over the territory, then they do the acquired deeper targets and then go viral. That's basically how fake news works. >> See the problem is, you look at something like alt-right and ANTIFA. ANTIFA, just like Black Lives Matter, the initiatives may have started out with righteous intentions just like take a knee. These initiatives, first stage is if it causes chaos, chaos is the op for a nation state in the US. That's the op. Chaos. That's the beginning and the end of an op. What happens is they will say, "oh okay look, this is ticking off all these other people "so let's fan the flame of this take a knee thing "hurt the NFL." Who cares? I don't watch football anyway but you know, take a knee. It's causing all this chaos. >> John: It's called trolling. >> What will happen is Russia and China, China has got their 13 five year plan, Russia has their foreign influence operations. They will fan that flame to exhaustion. Now what happens to the ANTIFA guy when he's a self-radicalized wound collector with a mental disorder? Maybe he's bipolar. Now with ANTIFA, he's experienced a heightened more extreme variation of that particular ideology so who steps in next? Cyber caliphate and Muslim brotherhood. That's why we're going to have an epidemic. I can't believe, you know, ANTIFA is a domestic terrorist organization. It's shocking that the FBI is not taking this more serious. What's happening now is Muslim brotherhood funds basically the cyber caliphate. The whole point of cyber caliphate is to create awareness, instill the illusion of rampant xenophobia for recruiting. They have self-radicalized wound collectors with ANTIFA that are already extremists anyway. They're just looking for a reason to take that up a notch. That's when, cyber caliphate, they hook up with them with a hashtag. They respond and they create a relationship. >> John: They get the fly wheel going. >> They take them to a deep web forum, dark web forum, and start showing them how it works. You can do this. You can be part of something. This guy who was never even muslim now is going under the ISIS moniker and he acts. He drives people over in New York. >> They fossilized their belief system. >> The whole point to the cyber caliphate is to find actors that are already in the self-radicalization phase but what does it take psychologically and from a mentoring perspective, to get them to act? That's the cyber caliphate. >> This is the value of data and context in real time using the current events to use that data, refuel their operation. It's data driven terrorism. >> What's the prescription that you're advising? >> I'm not a regulations kind of guy, but any time you're curating metadata like we're just talking about right now. Any time you have organizations like google, like Facebook, that have become so big, they are like their own nation state. That's a dangerous thing. The metadata curation. >> John: The value of the data is very big. That's the point. >> It is because what's happening... >> John: There's always a vulnerability. >> There's always a vulnerability and it will be exploited and all that metadata, it's unscrubbed. I'm not worried about them selling metadata that's scrubbed. I'm worried about the nation state or the sophisticated actor that already has a remote access Trojan on the network and is exfiltrating in real time. That's the guy that I'm worried about because he can just say, "forget it, I'm going to target people that are at this phase." He knows how to write algorithms, comes up with a good psychographic algorithm, puts the data in there, and now he's like, "look I'm only going to promote this concept, "two people at this particular stage of self-radicalization "or sympathetic to the kremlin." We have a big problem on the college campuses with IP theft because of the Chinese Students Scholar Associations which are directly run by the Chinese communist party. >> I heard a rumor that Equifax's franchising strategy had partners on the VPN that were state sponsored. They weren't even hacking, they had full access. >> There's a reason that the Chinese are buying hotels. They bought the Waldorf Astoria. We do stuff with the UN and NATO, you can't even stay there anymore. I think it's still under construction but it's a no-no to stay there anymore. I mean western nations and allies because they'll have bugs in the rooms. The WiFi that you use... >> Has fake certificates. >> Or there's a vulnerability that's left in that network so the information for executives who have IP or PII or electronic health records, you know what I mean? You go to these places to stay overnight, as an executive, and you're compromised. >> Look what happened with Eugene Kaspersky. I don't know the real story. I don't know if you can comment, but someone sees that and says, "this guy used to have high level meetings "at the Pentagon weekly, monthly." Now he's persona non grata. >> He fell out of favor, I guess, right? It happens. >> James, great conversation. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Congratulations on the great work you guys are doing here at the event. I know the content has been well received. Certainly the key notes we saw were awesome. CSOs, view from the government, from industry, congratulations. James Scott who is the co founder and senior fellow of ICIT, Internet Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> James: Institute of Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> T is for tech. >> And the Center for Cyber Influence Operations Studies. >> Good stuff. A lot of stuff going on (mumbles), exploits, infrastructure, it's all mainstream. It's the crisis of our generation. There's a radical shift happening and the answers are all going to come from industry and government coming together. This is the Cube bringing the data, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching. More live coverage after this short break. (music)

>> Narrator: Live from New York City, It's theCUBE. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify, and The Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. (synth music tag) >> And government industries together for the first time. A unique kind of collaboration unlike normal events, like black hat or RSA, that are mostly about hacks and really geeky sessions. There's a great place for that, but again, this is the first of its kind, and it's presented by Centrify's theCUBE as an exclusive partner here, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, co-founder of SiliconANGLE, my co-founder, Dave Vellante here. Dave, I mean, Centrify really taking an industry proactive role, not having their own event. Instead, using their money to fund an industry event. This is the trend in digital media. Presented by Centrify, not 'sponsored by' or 'their event'. This, we've seen this in the big data space before where events are sponsored for the community. You know, cyber security, really a big topic. You know, General Keith Alexander, retired general, was on stage as the keynote. Really talking about the crisis in the United States and around the world, around cyber security, cyber war, a whole new reality. This is the thrust of the event. >> Well, they say content is king. Well, context is kind of the empire, and the context here is, the world is changing. And the seriousness of that change is significant. General Alexander, many people may not know, General Keith, former, retired General Keith Alexander, he was the first Head of Chief $of Cyber Security at U.S., appointed by Obama. John, he was appointed Director of the NSA in 2005. Now, you guys remember, I'm sure, Stuxnet was right around 2004, 2005 when it was developed, and it bridged the Bush to the Obama administration. So he had the, all the inside baseball. He didn't talk about Stuxnet, but that was, >> He did share some nice war stories. >> Yeah, but that was the first and most significant, the way they got into Natanz, and he was at the center of all that. And he did share some war stories. He talked about Snowden, he talked about collaboration with the FBI, he talked about saving lives. And basically he said, hey, I stood in front of the ACLU. They basically undressed him, right? And then came back and said, hey, this is one of the most ethical agencies, and law-abiding agencies I've ever, he's seen, so he read that note from the head of the ACLU, it was very proud of that. >> Yeah, and the Stuxnet, it was in the news obviously, just yesterday it was reported, actually the day before November 1st, November 2nd, that Stuxnet was highly underestimated. In fact, the digital certificates that were spoofed were, been hanging around, the malware's been out there. Then again, this is, this is an indictment of the problem that we have, which is, we've got to get the security. Now, the things that the General talked about, I want to get your reaction to, because certainly I honed in on a couple key things. "Foundational tech for common defense." So he talked a lot about the Constitution and the role of government, I did a tweet on that, but what is the role of the government? That's the common defense of the United States, citizens and business. One. Not just protect the Department of Defense. At the same time, he did kind of put a plug in that we need the civil liberties and privacy to be addressed. But this is the biggest crisis we have, and it's a problem that can only be solved by working together. And if you look at, Dave, the trends that we're following on theCUBE and SiliconANGLE and Wikibon, the common thread is community. If you look at blockchain and what's going on in that disruptive, decentralized world, the role of the community is critical. If you look at what's going on in security, it's the role of the community. If you look at open source, the biggest success story of our multiple generations and now impacting the younger generation in the computer science industry and the computer industry, open source software. Community. You're starting to see the role of communities where knowing your neighbor, knowing who's involved with things, is really critical, and you can't highlight it any more than this conference that Centrify's presenting with these gurus, because they're all saying the same thing. You've got to share the data. The community's got to work together. So, common defense, maintaining civil liberties and maintaining privacy at the same time, solving the biggest crisis of our time. >> Well the other big thing and, John, you actually made this prediction to me a couple weeks ago, was that government and industry are going to start working together. It's going, it has to happen. General Alexander basically said that, is it the government's role, job, to protect commercial industry? And it was an emphatic yes, and he pulled out his fake version of the Constitution, and said yes, and he got in front of Panetta, in front of the US Senate, and made the case for that. And I think there's no question about it. Industries control critical infrastructure. And industries aren't in a good position to protect that critical infrastructure. They need help from the government, and the government has some of the most advanced technologies in the world. >> And the other thing we've been hearing from this, the executive at Aetna, is attack, maintaining intelligence on the data and sharing is critical to resolve the problem, but his point was that most people spend time on an attack vector that's usually wrong. He said, quote, "You're better off having people be idle, than chasing down on an attack vector that's wrong." So his point is, report that to the agencies quickly, to, one, reverse-engineer the problem. Most likely you're going to get better intel on the attack, on the vector, then you can start working effectively. So he says a lot of problems that are being solved by unconventional means. >> Well, General Alexander said that when he was head of Cyber Command, his number one challenge was visibility, on the attacks, they could only respond to those attacks. So, my question to you, John, is how will data, big data, machine learning, AI, whatever you want to call it, how will that affect our ability as an industry to proactively identify threats and thwart them, as opposed to just being a response mechanism? >> I think it's going to be critical. I think if you look at the AI and machine learning, AI is basically machine learning on steroids, that's really kind of what it is now, but it hopefully will evolve into bigger things, is really going through the massive amounts of data. One of the points that General Alexander talked about was the speed and velocity of how things are changing, and that most IT departments can't even keep up with that right now, never mind security. So machine learning will allow things to happen that are different analysis faster, rather than relying on data lakes and all kinds of old modeling, it's just not fast enough, so speed. The other thing too is that, as you start looking at security, this decentralized approach, most attacks are coming in on state-sponsored but democratized attacks, meaning you don't have, you can use open source and public domain software to provide attacks. This is what he's been talking about. So the number one thing is the data. Sharing the data, being part of a community approach where companies can work in sectors, because there's a lot of trend data coming out that most attackers will come out, or state-sponsored attacks, will target specific things. First of all, the one problem that can be solved immediately is that there's no way any of the United States military and-or energy grid should be attached to the Internet. And you can mask out all foreign attacks just by saying only people in the US should be accessing. That's one network conventional thing you can do. But getting the data out there is critical, but working in sectors. Most attacks happen like on the financial services industry, so if you sit in there and trying to solve the problem and keeping it on the down-low, you're going to get fired anyway, you know? The business is probably going to get hurt. Report it early, with your peers in the community, share some data, anonymize that data, don't make it, you know, privacy breaching, but get it out there. Number one thing. >> Well, here's the problem is, 80 billion dollars is spent a year on security, and the vast majority of that is still spent on perimeter security, and we heard today that the number one problem is things like credential stuffing, and password, poor user behavior, and our response to that is education. Jim Routh talked about, that's a conventional response. We need unconventional responses. I mean, the bottom line is that there's no silver bullet to security. You talked about, critical infrastructure should not be connected to the internet, but even then, when you have an air gap, you go back to Stuxnet, Natanz had an air gap. Mossad got through the air gap. There's always a way to get through somehow. So there's no one silver bullet. It's a portfolio of approaches and practices, and education, and unconventional processes that you have to apply. And as we talked about, >> Well I mean, there's no silver bullet, but there are solutions. And I think that's what he's saying. He gave it, General Alexander gave specific examples, when he was in charge, of the NSA command center was, you know, terrorist attacks being thwarted. Those are actual secure problems on the terrorism front that were solved. There was a silver bullet for that, it's called technology. So as you generalize it, Dave, I can hear what you're saying, because IT guys want a silver bullet. I want to buy a product that solves my security problem. >> So here's the problem I have with that is, I used to read Art Coviello's, you know, memo every year, >> Yeah. >> It was like, he tried to do like the, and he still does. But I look back every year and I say, Do we feel safer and more secure than we were last year? And every year the answer is no. So we, despite all the technology, and we've talked about this on theCUBE with Pat Gelsinger, security is essentially a do-over. We do need unconventional new ways, >> No debate. >> Of attacking the problem. >> No debate. Well I noticed, I'm just highlighting the point, I mean if you look at it from an IT perspective, the old conventional wisdom was, I want to buy a product. Hey, vendor, sell me your security product. What General's kind of pointing out is, he's kind of pointing out and connecting the dots, is like, hey, what they learned in the NSA was, it's an ongoing iterative thing that's happening in real time. It's not an IT solution anymore. It's a more of a holistic problem. Meaning, if you don't under stand the problem space, you can't attack it. So when they talked about the terrorist attack, they had a phone record, and they had to give it to the FBI. The FBI had to get into it. They discovered the guy in basically 24 hours, and then it took a week to kind of vet the information. Luckily they caught it and saved a subway attack in New York City in 2008 that would have been devastating. Okay, still, they were successful, but, weeks. So machine learning, and to your point, is only going to accelerate those benefits. And again, the real counterpoint as General pointed out is, civil liberties and privacy. >> Well, talk- >> I mean, what do you want? You want subway attacks, or you want to have your email, and your email be clean, or you want to have people read your email, and no subway attacks? I mean, come on. >> Well, you and I have talked about this on theCUBE over a number of years, and talking about Snowden, and General Alexander brought it up, you know, basically saying, hey, he told he story and he was pretty emphatic as to, his job is to protect, not only the citizens of the United States, but the infrastructure, and basically saying that we couldn't have done it without the laws that allowed us to analyze the metadata. >> I think, I think, in my opinion, what I think's going to happen is, we're going to have a completely reimagined situation on government. If you look at the trends with GovCloud, what's going on with AWS, Amazon Web Services, in the federal area, is an acceleration of massive agility and change happening. You're going to see a reimagine of credentials. Reimagining of culture around hiring and firing people that are the right people. You know I said, and I always say, there should be a Navy SEALs for cyber, a West Point for cyber. So I think you're going to start to see a cultural shift from a new generation of leaders, and a new generation of citizens in the US, that are going to look at citizenship differently. So for instance, Centrify, which is putting on this event, has an identity solution. That's an easy solution. Take it out of IT's problem, no one should be patching 1200 different IT systems in the government. Screw it. It's like a driver's license. Here's your credential, you know? >> So, >> So there's new ways to think of it. Radical ways, progressive ways, whatever you want to call it, I think those are going to be coming fast. Blockchains is a solution. >> I was going to ask you about that. So, four out of five breaches are password related. From credential stuffing or just bad password behavior. Everybody uses the same password, because they can remember it, across all these sites. So four out of five of the breaches can be traced back to poor password behavior. So, will things like blockchain or single sign-on, really, the answer, that's about the wrong question. When will, and how will, things like blockchain come to front and center, to solve that problem? >> I don't know, Dave. I mean, all I know is in today's Wall Street Journal, Andy Kessler writes a story that if you want to predict the future, it's all about dodgeball. You've got to get in the game and get hit by a few balls to know what's kind of going on around you. >> Dave: So you've got to fail first. >> Everybody has an opinion, nobody actually knows the answer, this has been a premise in the tech business. In my opinion, my opinion is, to reimagine things, you've got to look at it differently. So if you look at Jim Routh, the CSO at Aetna said, he said, look, we're going to solve these problems in a way, and he said, I'm not even a computer science major, I'm a history major, and I'm running Aetna's security practice. And his point was, he's a history major, civilizations crumble when trust crumbles. Okay, so trust is a huge issue, so trust on the government, trust on the systems, trust with email, so that, so he's looking at it and saying, hey, I want systems that don't erode trust, because the civilization of the world will disintegrate. So trust is a big factor, these are the new things that the best minds have to solve. >> I think the other thing, that really important topic that came up is, is public policy, and there was a discussion on sort of the, you know, hacktivists versus state-sponsored terrorism, so the payload, or the signature of a hacktivist malware is dramatically different than that of a state-sponsored initiative. State-sponsored initiatives are much more sophisticated and much more dangerous. And so, Robert Gates, when he was on theCUBE, brought this up, and he said, listen, we have the best technology in the world. The best security in the world. And we apply that largely for defense, and he said, we could go on the offensive. He said the problem is, so can everyone else, and we have, as a nation, a lot more to lose. So when you, we talked about Stuxnet earlier, Stuxnet basically was your tax dollars at work, getting into the hands eventually of the bad guys, who then use that to come back and say, okay, we can attack critical infrastructure, US, so you better be careful. >> It's bigger than that, though, Dave. That's a one, that's an old point, which is a good point, but Stuxnet was the beginning of a movement that state-sponsored actors were doing. In the old days, a state-sponsored actor, in the Iran case, came from a state sponsor, they revealed their hands in their hack a little too early, and we could counter that. But when you look at the specific attacks over the past 15 years, if a state-sponsored attack on the US was happening, it was their, they had to show their hand. That's different now, with WikiLeaks and public domain, states can still remain anonymous and saying "It wasn't us!" And point to these organizations by democratizing hacker tools. So whether it's Stuxnet or something else, you're seeing state-sponsored actors, and I won't, China, Russia, whoever they are, they can actually enable other people who hate the US to attack us. Their signature's not even on it. So by democratizing the hacker tools, increases the number of people that could attack the US. And so the state sponsors aren't even doing anything. >> Well, so, Jim Routh talked about WannaCry and NotPetya, which were, you know, generally believed to be ransomware. He said no, they weren't ransomware. They only collected about 140 thousand from that in US dollars. They were really about state-sponsored political acts. I don't know, sending warnings. We're going to ask him about that when he comes in theCUBE. >> Alright. We've got a big day here. New York City here for CyberConnect 2017, this is the inaugural event presented by Centrify. All the top leaders in the industry and government are here solving the problem, the crisis of our generation's cyber attack security, both government and industry coming together. This is theCUBE, we'll be back, more live coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from New York City, it's the CUBE covering CyberConnect 2017 brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Okay welcome back everyone. This is the CUBE's live coverage in New York City exclusively with the CyberConnect 2017, it's an inaugural event presented by Centrify. It's not a Centrify event. Centrify one of the fastest growing security startups in Silicon Valley and around the world. It is underwriting this great event bringing industry, government and practitioners together to add value on top of the great security conversations. I'm John Furrier, your host with Dave Vellante, my co-host, my next guest is Bill Mann who's the Chief Product Officer with Centrify. Welcome back to the CUBE, great to see you. >> Hey, great to be here. >> Thanks and congratulations for you guys doing what I think is a great community thing, underwriting an event, not just trying to take the event, make it about Centrify, it's really an organically driven event with the team of customers you have, and industry consultants and practitioners, really, really great job, congratulations. >> Bill: Thank you. >> Alright so now let's get down to the meat of the conversation here at the show in the hallways is general's conversation, General Alexander talking about his experience at the NSA and the Fiber Command Center. Really kind of teasing out the future of what cyber will be like for an enterprise whether it's a slow moving enterprise or a fast moving bank or whatever, the realities are this is the biggest complexity and challenge of our generation. Identity's at the heart of it. You guys were called the foundational element of a new solution that has people have to coming together in a community model sharing data, talking to each other, why did he call you guys foundational? >> I think he's calling us foundational because I think he's realizing that having strong identity in an environment is kind of the keys to getting yourself in a better state of mind and a better security posture. If we look at the kind of the foundational principles of identity, it's really about making sure you know who the people are within your organization, by doing identity assurance so that's a foundational principle. The principle of giving people the least amount of access within an organization, that's a foundational principle. The principle of understanding what people did and then using that information and then adjusting policy, that's a foundational principle. I think that's the fundamental reason why he talks about it as a foundational principle and let's face it, most organizations are now connected to the Cloud, they've got mobile user, they've got outsourced IT so something's got to change, right. I mean the way we've been running security up until now. If it was that great, we wouldn't have had all the threats, right? >> And all kinds of silver bullets have been rolling out, Dave and I were commenting and Dave made a point on our intro today that there's no silver bullet in security, there's a lot of opportunities to solve problems but there's no, you can't buy one product. Now identity is a foundational element. Another interesting thing I want to get your reaction to was on stage was Jim from Aetna, the Chief Security Officer and he was kind of making fun with himself by saying I'm not a big computer science, I was a history major and he made a comment about his observation that when civilizations crumble, it's because of trust is lost. And kind of inferring that you can always connect the dots that trust in fundamental and that email security and most of the solutions are really killing the trust model rather than enhancing it and making it more secure so a holistic view of trust stability and enhancement can work in security. What's your reaction to that? >> So it's a complicated area. Trust is complicated let me just kind of baseline that for the moment. I think that we unfortunately, need to have better trust but the way we're approaching trust at the moment is the wrong way so let me give you a simple example. When we go, when we're at home and we're sleeping in our homes and the doors and windows are closed, we inherently trust the security of our environment because the doors and windows are closed but reality is the doors and windows can be really easily opened right, so we shouldn't be trusting that environment at all but we do so what we need to instead do is get to a place where we trust the known things in our environment very, very well and understand what are the unknown things in our environment so the known things in our environment can be people right, the identity of people, can be objects like knowing that this is really Bill's phone, it's a registered phone and it's got a device ID is better than having any phone being used for access so like I said, trust, it's complicated. >> John: But we don't know it has malware on there though. You could have malware. >> You could have malware on there but look, then you've got different levels of trust, right. You've got zero trust when you don't know anything about it. You've got higher levels of trust when you know it's got no malware. >> So known information is critical. >> Known information is critical and known information can then be used to make trust decisions but it's when we make decisions on trust without any information and where we infer that things are trustworthy when they shouldn't be like the home example where you think the doors are closed but it's so easy to break through them, that's when we infer trust so trust is something that we need to build within the environment with information about all the objects in the environment and that's where I think we can start building trust and that's I think how we have to approach the whole conversation about trust. Going back to your example, when you receive an email from somebody, you don't know if it came from that person right. Yet I'm talking to you, I trust that I'm talking to you, right, so that's where the breakdown happens and once we have that breakdown, society can breakdown as well. >> But going back to your device example so there are situations today. I mean you try to log on to your bank from your mobile device and it says do you want to remember this device, do you want to trust this device? Is that an example of what you're talking about and it might hit me a text with a two factor authentication. >> That's an example, that's absolutely an example of trust and then so there's a model in security called the zero trust model and I spoke about it earlier on today and that model of security is the foundational principles of that is understanding who the user is, understanding what endpoint or device they're coming from and that's exactly what you've described which is understanding the context of that device, the trustworthy of the device, you know the location of that device, the posture of that device. All of those things make that device more trustworthy than knowing nothing about that device and those are the kind of fundamental constructs of building trust within the organization now as opposed to what we've got at the moment is we're implying trust without any information about really trust right. I mean most of us use passwords and most of us use password, password so there's no difference between both of you, right and so how can I trust-- >> I've never done that. >> I know but how can we trust each other if we're using you know, data like that to describe ourselves. >> Or using the data in your Linkedin profile that could be socially engineered. >> Bill: Exactly. >> So there's all kinds of ways to crack the passwords so you brought up the trust so this is a, spoofing used to be a common thing but that's been resolved that some, you know same calling some techniques and other things but now when you actually have certificates being compromised, account compromised, that's where you know, you think you know who that person is but that's not who it is so this is a new dynamic and was pointed out in one of the sessions that this account, real compromises of identity is a huge issue. What are you guys doing to solve that problem? Have you solved that problem? >> We're addressing parts of solving that problem and the part of the problem that we're trying to solve is increasing the posture of multi factor authentication of that user so you know more certainty that this is really who that person is. But the fact of the matter is like you said earlier on, trying to reduce the risk down to zero is almost impossible and I think that's what we have to be all clear about in this market, this is not about reducing risk to zero, it's about getting the risk down to something which is acceptable for the type of business you are trying to work on so implementing MFA is a big part of what Centrify advocates within organizations. >> Explain MFA real quick. >> Oh, multi factor authentication. >> Okay, got it. >> Something that we're all used to when we're using, doing online banking at the moment but unfortunately most enterprises don't implement MFA for all the use cases that they need to be able to implement before. So I usually describe it as MFA everywhere and the reason I say MFA everywhere, it should be for all users, not a subset of the users. >> Should be all users, yeah. >> And it should be for all the accesses when they're accessing salesforce.com for concur so all the application, all the servers that they access, all the VPNs that they access, all the times that they request any kind of privilege command, you should reauthenticate them as well at different points in time. So implementing MFA like that can reduce the risk within the organization. >> So I buy that 100% and I love that direction, I'd ask you then a hard question. Anyone who's an Apple user these days knows how complicated MFA could be, I get this iCloud verification and it sends me a code to my phone which could be hacked potentially so you have all these kinds of complexities that could arise depending upon how complicated the apps are. So how should the industry think about simplifying and yet maintaining the security of the MFA across workloads so application one through n. >> So let me kind of separate the problems out so we focus on the enterprise use case so what you're describing is more the consumer use case but we have the same problem in the enterprise area as well but at least in the enterprise area I think that we're going to be able to address the problems sooner in the market. >> John: Because you have the identity baseline? >> One, we have the identity and there's less applications that the enterprise is using. >> It's not Apple. >> It's not like endpoints. >> But take Salesforce, that's as much of a pain, right. >> But with applications like Salesforce, and a lot of the top applications out there, the SaaS applications out there, they already support SAML as a mechanism for eliminating passwords altogether and a lot of the industry is moving towards using API mechanisms for authentication. Now your example for the consumer is a little bit more challenging because now you've got to get all these consumer applications to tie in and so forth right so that's going to be tougher to do but you know, we're focused on trying to solve the enterprise problem and even that is being a struggle in the industry. It's only now that you're seeing standards like SAML and OWASP getting implemented whereby we can make assertions about an identity and then an application can then consume that assertion and then move forward. >> Even in those situations if I may Bill, there's take the trust to another level which is there's a trusted third party involved in those situations. It might be Twitter, Linkedin, Facebook or Google, might be my bank, it might be RSA in some cases. Do you envision a day where we can eliminate the trusted third party with perhaps blockchain. >> Oh I actually do. Yeah, no, I do, I think the trusted third party model that we've got is broken fundamentally because if a break in to the bank, that's it, you know the third party trust but I'm a big fan of blockchain mainly because it's going to be a trusted end party right so there's going to be end parties that are vouching for Bill's identity on the blockchain so and it's going to be harder to get to all those end minors and convince them that they need to change their or break into them right. So yeah I'm a big fan of the trust model changing. I think that's going to be one of the biggest use cases for blockchain when it comes to trust and the way we kind of think about certificates and browsers and SSL certificates and so forth. >> I think you're right on the money and what i would add to that is looking at this conference, CyberConnect, one theme that I see coming out of this is I hear the word reimagining the future here, reimagining security, reimagining DNS, reimagining so a lot of the thought leaders that are here are talking about things like okay, here's what we have today. I'm not saying throwing it away but it's going to be completely different in the new world. >> Yeah and I think you know the important thing about the past is got to learn from the past and we got to apply some of the lessons to the future and things are just so different now. We know with microservices versus monolithic application architectures you know security used to be an afterthought before but you know, you talk to the average developer now, they want to add security in their applications, they realize that right so, and that's going to, I mean, maybe I'm being overly positive but I think that's going to take us to a better place. >> I think we're in a time. >> We need to be overly positive Bill. >> You're the chief officer, you have to have a 20 mouth stare and I think you know legacy always has been a thing we've heard in the enterprise but I just saw a quote on Twitter on the internet and it was probably, it's in quotes so it's probably right, it's motivating, a motivating quote. If you want to create the future, you've got to create a better version of the past and they kind of use taxis versus Uber obviously to answer of a shift in user behavior so that's happening in this industry. There's a shift of user experience, user expectations, changing internet infrastructure, you mentioned blockchain, a variety of other things so we're actually in a time where the better mouse trap actually will work. If you could come out with a great product that changes the economics and the paradigm or use case of an old legacy. So in a way by theory if you believe that, legacy shouldn't be a problem. >> You know and I certainly believe that. Having a kid who's in middle school at the moment, and the younger generation, to understand security way more than we ever used to and you know, this generation, this coming generation understands the difference between a password and a strong password and mobile be used as a second factor authentication so I think that the whole tide will rise here from a security perspective. I firmly believe that. >> Dave: You are an optimist. >> Well about government 'cause one thing that I liked about the talk here from the general was he was pretty straight talk and one of his points, I'm now generalizing and extrapolating out is that the HR side of government has to change in other words the organizational behavior of how people look at things but also the enterprise, we've heard that a lot in our Cloud coverage. Go back eight years when the Clouderati hit, oh DevOps is great but I can't get it through 'cause I've got to change my behavior of my existing staff. So the culture of the practitioners have to change. >> Bill: Yes, absolutely. >> 'Cause the new generation's coming. >> Oh absolutely, absolutely. I was speaking to a customer this morning who I won't mention and literally they told me that their whole staff has changed and they had to change their whole staff on this particular project around security because they found that the legacy thinking was there and they really wanted to move forward at a pace and they wanted to make changes that their legacy staff just wouldn't let 'em move forward with so basically, all of their staff had been changed and it was a memorable quote only because this company is a large organization and it's struggling with adopting new technologies and it was held back. It was not held back because of product or strategies, >> John: Or willingness. >> Or willingness. It was held back by people who were just concerned and wanted to stick to the old way of doing things and that has to change as well so I think you know, there's times will change and I think this is one of those times where security is one of those times where you got to push through change otherwise I mean I'm also a believer that security is a competitive advantage for an organization as well and if you stick with the past, you're not going to be able to compete in the future. >> Well, and bad user behavior will always trump good security. It was interesting to hear Jim Routh today talk about unconventional message and I was encouraged, he said, you know spoofing, we got DMARC, look alike domains, we got sink holes, display name deception, we've got, you know we can filter the incoming and then he talked about compromised accounts and he said user education and I went oh, but there's hope as an optimist so you've got technologies on the horizon to deal with that even right so you. >> I'm also concerned that the pace at which the consumer world is moving forward on security, online banking and even with Google and so forth that the new generation will come into the workforce and be just amazed how legacy the environments are right, 'cause the new generation is used to using you know, Google Cloud, Google Mail, Google everything and everything works, it's all integrated already and if they're coming to the workplace and that workplace is still using legacy technologies right, they're not going to be able to hire those people. >> Well I'll give you an example. When I went to college, I was the first generation, computer science major that didn't have to use punch cards and I was blown away like actually people did that like what, who the hell would ever do that? And so you know, I was the younger guy coming up, it was like, I was totally looking down. >> Dave: That's ridiculous. >> I would thank God I don't do that but they loved it 'cause they did it. >> I mean I've got the similar story, I was the first generation in the UK. We were the first Mac-Lab in the UK, our university had the first large Mac, Apple Macintosh Lab so when I got into the workplace and somebody put a PC in front of me, I was like hold on, where's the mouse, where's the windows, I couldn't handle it so I realized that right so I think we're at that kind of junction at the moment as well. >> We got two minutes left and I want to ask you kind of a question around the comment you just made a minute ago around security as a competitive advantage. This is really interesting, I mean you really can't say security is a profit center because you don't sell security products if you're deploying state of the art security practices but certainly it shouldn't be a cost center so we've seen on our CUBE interviews over the past year specifically, the trend amongst CCOs and practitioners is when pressed, they say kind of, I'm again generalizing the trend, we're unbundling the security department from IT and making it almost a profit center reporting to the board and or the highest levels, not like a profit center but in a way, that's the word they use because if we don't do that, our ability to make a profit is there so you've brought up competitive strategy, you have to have a security and it's not going to be underneath an IT umbrella. I'm not saying everyone's doing it but the trend was to highlight that they have to break out security as a direct report as if it was a profit center because their job is so critical, they don't want to be caught in an IT blanket. Do you see that trend and your comment and reaction to that statement? >> I see that trend but I see it from a perspective of transparency so I think that taking security out of the large umbrella of IT and given its own kind of foundation, own reporting structure is all about transparency and I think that modern organizations understand now the impact a breach can have to a company. >> John: Yeah, puts you out of business. >> Right, it puts you out of business right. You lose customers and so forth so I think having a security leader at the table to be able to describe what they're doing is giving the transparency for decision makers within the organization and you know, one of my other comments about it being a competitive advantage, I personally think let's take the banking arena, it's so easy to move from bank A to bank B and I personally think that people will stay with a certain bank if that bank has more security features and so forth. I mean you know, savings, interest rates going to be one thing and mortgage rates are going to be one thing but if all things are even. >> It's a product feature. >> It's a product feature and I think that again, the newer generation is looking for features like that, because they're so much more aware of the threat landscape. So I think that's one of the reasons why I think it's a competitive advantage but I agree with you, having more visibility for an organization is important. >> You can't make a profit unless the lights are on, the systems are running and if you have a security hack and you're not running, you can't make a profit so it's technically a profit center. Bill I believe you 100% on the competitive strategy. It certainly is going to be table stakes, it's part of the product and part of the organization's brand, everything's at stake. Big crisis, crisis of our generation, cyber security, cyber warfare for the government, for businesses as a buzz thing and business, this is the Centrify presented event underwritten by Centrify here in New York City. CyberConnect 2017, the CUBE's exclusive coverage. More after this short break. (electronic jingle)

>> Host: New York City, it's The Cube covering Cyber Connect 2017, brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This the Cube's live coverage in New York City. This is the Cyber Connect 2017, presented by Centrify, underwritten by such a large industry event. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Byron Acohido who's the journalist at lastwatchdog.com. Thanks for joining us, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you, pleasure to be here. >> So, seasoned journalist, there's a lot to report. Cyber is great, we heard a great talk this morning around the national issues around the government. But businesses are also struggling, too, that seems to be the theme of this event, inaugural event. >> It really is a terrific topic that touches everything that we're doing, the way we live our lives today. So, yeah, this is a terrific event where some of the smartest minds dealing with it come together to talk about the issues. >> What's the top level story in your mind in this industry right now? Chaos, is it data, civil liberties, common threats? How do you stack rank in level of importance, the most important story? >> You know, it really is all of the above. I had the privilege to sit at lunch with General Keith Alexander. I've seen him speak before at different security events. So it was a small group of the keynote speakers, and Tom Kemp, the CEO of Centrify. And he just nailed it. He basically, what resonated with me was he said basically we're kind of like where we were, where the world was at the start of World War I, where Russia and Germany and England, we're all kind of lining up, and Serbia was in the middle, and nobody really knew the significance of what lay ahead, and the US was on the sidelines. And all these things were just going to converge and create this huge chaos. That's what he compared it today, except we're in the digital space with that, because we're moving into cloud computing, mobile devices, destruction of privacy, and then now the nation states, Russia is lining up, North Korea, and Iran. We are doing it too, that was probably one of the most interesting things that came at you. >> His rhetoric was very high on the, hey, get our act together, country, attitude. Like, we got a lot to bring to the table, he highlighted a couple use cases and some war stories that the NSA's been involved in, but almost kind of teasing out, like we're kind of getting in our own way if we don't reimagine this. >> Yes, he is a very great advocate for the private sector industry, but not just industry, the different major verticals like especially the financial sector and the energy sector to put aside some of the competitive urges they have and recognize that this is going on. >> Okay, but I got to ask you, as a journalist, Last Watchdog, General Alexander definitely came down, when he sort of addressed privacy, and Snowden, and the whole story he told about the gentleman from the ACLU who came in a skeptic and left an advocate. As a journalist whose job is to be a skeptic, did you buy that? Does your community buy that? What's the counterpoint to that narrative that we heard this morning? >> Well, actually I think he hit it right on the head. As a journalist, why I got into this business and am still doing it after all these years is if I can do a little bit to shed a little bit of light on something that helps the public recognize what's going on, that's what I'm here to do. And this topic is just so rich and touches everything. We were talking just about the nation state level of it, but really it effects down to what we're doing as a society, what Google, and Facebook, and Twitter, how they're shaping our society and how that impacts privacy. >> We were talking last night, Dave, about the Twitter, and Facebook, and Alphabet in front of the Senate hearings last week, and how it means, in terms, he brought it up today. The common protection of America in this time, given the past election, that was the context of the Google thing, really has got a whole opportunity to reimagine how we work as a society in America, but also on the global stage. You got China, Russia, and the big actors. So, it's interesting, can we eventually reimagine, use this opportunity as the greatest crisis to transform the crap that's out there today. Divisiveness, no trust. We're living in an era now where, in my life time I can honestly say I've never seen it this shitty before. I mean, it's bad. I mean, it's like the younger generation looking at us, looking at, oh, Trump this, Trump that, I don't trust anybody. And the government has an opportunity. >> Alright, but wait a minute. So, I'm down the middle, as you know, but I'm going to play skeptic here a little bit. What I basically heard from General Alexander this morning was we got vetted by the ACLU, they threw sort of holy water on it, and we followed the law. And I believe everything he said, but I didn't know about that law until Snowden went public, and I agree with you, Snowden should be in jail. >> John: I didn't say that. >> You did, you said that a couple, few years ago on The Cube, you said that. Anyway, regardless. >> I'm going to go find the archive. >> Maybe I'm rewriting history, but those laws were enacted kind of in a clandestine manner, so I put it out to both of you guys. As a citizen, are you willing to say, okay, I'll give up maybe some of my privacy rights for protection? I know where I stand on that, but I'm just asking you guys. I mean, do all your readers sort of agree with that narrative? Do all of The Cube? >> If you look at the World War I example the general, he brought up at lunch, I wasn't there, but just me thinking about that, it brings up a good perspective. If you look at reinventing how society in America is done, what will you give up for safety? These are some of the questions. What does patriotizing mean for if industry's going to work together, what does it mean to be a patriot? What I heard from the general onstage today was, we're screwed if we don't figure this out, because the war, it's coming. It's happening at massive speeds. >> Again, I know where I stand on this. I'm a law-abiding citizen. >> - Byron, what do you think? >> Go ahead and snoop me, but I know people who would say no, that's violating my constitutional rights. I dunno, it's worth a debate, is all I'm saying. >> It's a core question to how we're living our lives today, especially here in the US. In terms of privacy, I think the horse has left the barn. Nobody cares about privacy if you just look at the way we live our lives. Google and Facebook have basically thrown the privacy model-- >> GPS. >> That came about because we went through World War I and World War II, and we wanted the right to be left alone and not have authoritative forces following us inside the door. But now we don't live in just a physical space, we live in a cyberspace. >> I think there's new rules. >> There is no privacy. >> Don't try and paint me into a corner here, I did maybe say some comments. Looking forward the new realities are, there are realities happening, and I think the general illuminated a lot of those today. I've been feeling that. However, I think when you you define what it means to be a patriot of the United States of America and freedom, that freedom has to be looked through the prism of the new realities. The new realities are, as the General illuminated, there are now open public domain tools for anyone to attack the United State, industry and government, he brought it up. Who do they protect, the banks? So, this ends up, I think will be a generational thing that the younger generation and others will have to figure out, but the leaders in industry will have to step up. And I think that to me is interesting. What does that look like? >> I think leadership is the whole key to this. I think there's a big thread about where the burden lies. I write about that a lot as a central theme, where is the burden? Well, each of us have a burden in this society to pay attention to our digital footprint, but it's moving and whirling so fast, and the speaker just now from US Bank said there is no such thing as unprecedented, it's all ridiculous the way things are happening. So, it has to be at the level of the leaders, a combination, and I think this is what the general was advocating, a combination of the government as we know it, as we've built it, by and for the people, and industry recognizing that if they don't do it, regulations are going to be pushed down, which is already happening here in New York. New York State Department of Financial Services now imposes rules on financial services companies to protect their data, have a CSO, check their third parties. That just went in effect in March. >> Let's unpack that, because I think that's what new. If they don't do this, they don't partner, governments and industry don't partner together, either collectively as a vertical or sector with the government, then the government will impose new mandates on them. That's kind of what you're getting at. That's what's happening. >> It'll be a push and shove. Now the push is because industry has not acted with enough urgency, and even though they were seeing them in the headlines. California's already led the way in terms of its Data Loss Disclosure law that now 47 states have, but it's a very, I mean, that's just the level the government can push, and then industry has to react to that. >> I got to say, I'm just being an observer in the industry, we do The Cube, and how many events will we hear the word digital transformation. If people think digital transformation is hard now, imagine if the government imposes all these restrictions. >> What about GDPR? >> Byron: That's a good question, yeah. >> You're trying to tell me the US government is going to be obliged to leak private information because of a socialist agenda, which GDPR has been called. >> No, that's another one of these catalysts or one of these drivers that are pushing. We're in a global society, right? >> Here's my take, I'll share my opinion on this, Dave, I brought it up earlier. What the general was pointing out is the terror states now have democratized tools that other big actors are democratizing through the public domain to allow any enemy of the United States to attack with zero consequences, because they're either anonymous. But let's just say they're not anonymous, let's just say they get caught. We can barely convert drug dealers, multiple jurisdictions in court and around the world. What court is out there that will actually solve the problem? So, the question is, if they get caught, what is the judicial process? >> Navy SEALs? >> I mean, obviously, I'm using the DEA and drug, when we've been fighting drug for multiple generations and we still have to have a process to multiple years to get that in a global court. I mean, it's hard. My point is, if we can't even figure it out for drug trade, generations of data, how fast are we going to get cyber criminals? >> Well, there is recognition of this, and there is work being done, but the gap is so large. Microsoft has done a big chunk of this in fighting botnets, right? So, they've taken a whole legal strategy that they've managed to impose in maybe a half-dozen cases the last few years, where they legally went and got legal power to shut down hosting services that were sources of these botnets. So, that's just one piece of it. >> So, this World War I analogy, let's just take it to the cloud wars. So, in a way, Dave, we asked Amazon early on, Amazon Web Services how their security was. And you questioned, maybe cloud has better security than on premise, at that time eight years ago. Oh my God, the cloud is so insecure. Now it looks like the cloud's more secure, so maybe it's a scale game. Cloud guys might actually be an answer, if you take your point to the next level. What do you think? >> Correct me if I'm wrong, you haven't seen these kind of massive Equifax-like breaches at Amazon and Google. >> That we know about. >> That we know about. >> What do you think? Don't they have to disclose? >> Cloud players have an opportunity? >> That we know about. >> That's what I was saying. The question on the table is, are the cloud guys in a better position to walk around and carry the heavy stick on cyber? >> Personally, I would say no question. There's homogeneity of the infrastructure, and standardization, and more automation. >> What do you think? What's your community think? >> I think you're right, first of all, but I think it's not the full answer. I think the full answer is what the general keeps hammering on, which is private, public, this needs to be leadership, we need to connect all these things where it makes sense to connect them, and realize that there's a bigger thing on the horizon that's already breathing down our necks, already blowing fire like a dragon at us. It's a piece of the, yeah. >> It's a community problem. The community has to solve the problem at leadership level for companies and industry, but also what the security industry has always been known for is sharing. The question is, can they get to a data sharing protocol of some sort? >> It's more than just data sharing. I mean, he talked about that, he talked about, at lunch he did, about the ISAC sharing. He said now it's more, ISACs are these informational sharing by industry, by financial industry, health industry, energy industry, they share information about they've been hacked. But he said, it's more than that. We have to get together at the table and recognize where these attacks are coming, and figure out what the smart things are doing, like at the ISP level. That's a big part of the funnel, crucial part of the funnel, is where traffic moves. That's where it needs to be done. >> What about the the balance of power in the cyber war, cyber warfare? I mean, US obviously, US military industrial complex, Russia, China, okay, we know what the balance of power is there. Is there much more of a level playing field in cyber warfare, do you think, or is it sort of mirror the size of the economy, or the sophistication of the technology? >> No, I think you're absolutely right. There is much more of a level playing field. I mean, North Korea can come in and do a, this is what we know about, or we think we know about, come in and do a WannaCry attack, develop a ransomware that actually moves on the internet of things to raise cash, right, for North Korea. So there, yeah, you're absolutely right. >> That's funding their Defense Department. >> As Robert Gates said when he was on The Cube, we have to be really careful with how much we go on the offense with cyber security, because we have more to lose than anybody with critical infrastructure, and the banking system, the electrical grid, nuclear facilities. >> I interviewed a cyber guy on The Cube in the studio from Vidder, Junaid Islam. He's like, we can look at geo and not have anyone outside the US access our grid. I mean, no one should attack our resources from outside the US, to start with. So, core network access has been a big problem. >> Here's something, I think I can share this because I think he said he wouldn't mind me sharing it. At the lunch today, to your point that we have more to lose is, the general said yeah, we have terrific offensive capability. Just like in the analog world, we have all the great bombers, more bombers than anybody else. But can we stop people from getting, we don't have the comparable level of stopping. >> The defense is weak. >> The defense, right. Same thing with cyber. He said somebody once asked him how many of your, what percentage of your offensive attacks are successful? 100%. You know, we do have, we saw some of that with leaks of the NSA's weapons that happened this year, that gone out. >> It's like Swiss cheese, the leaks are everywhere, and it's by the network itself. I ran into a guy who was running one of the big ports, I say the city to reveal who it was, but he's like, oh my God, these guys are coming in the maritime network, accessing the core internet, unvetted. Pure core access, his first job as CIO was shut down the core network, so he has to put a VPN out there and segment the network, and validate all the traffic coming through. But the predecessor had direct internet access to their core network. >> Yeah, I think the energy sector, there's a sponsor here, ICIT, that's in the industrial control space, that I think that's where a lot of attention is going to go in the next couple of years, because as we saw with these attacks of the Ukraine, getting in there and shutting down their power grid for half a day or whatever, or with our own alleged, US own involvement in something like Stuxnet where we get into the power grid in Iran, those controls are over here with a separate legacy. Once you get in, it's really easy to move around. I think that needs to be all cleaned up and locked down. >> They're already in there, the malware's sitting in there, it's idle. >> We're already over there probably, I don't know, but that's what I would guess and hope. >> I don't believe anything I read these days, except your stuff, of course, and ours. Being a journalist, what are you working on right now? Obviously you're out there reporting, what are the top things you're looking at that you're observing? What's your observation space relative to what you're feeding into your reports? >> This topic, security, I'm going to retire and be long gone on this. This is a terrific topic that means so much and connects to everything. >> A lot of runway on this topic, right? >> I think the whole area of what, right there, your mobile device and how it plugs into the cloud, and then what that portends for internet of things. We have this whole 10-year history of the laptops, and we're not even solving that, and the servers are now moving here to these mobile devices in the clouds and IOT. It's just, attack surface area is just, continues to get bigger. >> And the IT cameras. >> The other thing I noticed on AETNA's presentation this morning on the keynote, Jim was he said, a lot of times many people chase the wrong attack vector, because of not sharing, literally waste cycle times on innovation. So, it's just interesting market. Okay, final thoughts, Byron. This event, what's the significance of this event? Obviously there's Black Hat out there and other industry events. What is so significant about CyberConnect from your perspective? Obviously, our view is it's an industry conversation, it's up-leveled a bit. It's not competing with other events. Do you see it the same way? What is your perspective on this event? >> I think that it's properly named, Connect, and I think that is right at the center of all this, when you have people like Jim Ralph from AETNA, which is doing these fantastic things in terms of protecting their network and sharing that freely, and the US Bank guy that was just on, and Verizon is talking later today. They've been in this space a long time sharing terrific intelligence, and then somebody like the general, and Tom Kemp, the CEO of Centrify, talking about giving visibility to that, a real key piece that's not necessarily sexy, but by locking that down, that's accessing. >> How is the Centrify message being received in the DC circles? Obviously they're an enterprise, they're doing very well. I don't know their net revenue numbers because they're private, they don't really report those. Are they well-received in the DC and the cyber communities in terms of what they do? Identity obviously is a key piece of the kingdom, but it used to be kind of a fenced off area in enterprise software model. They seem to have more relevance now. Is that translating for them in the marketplace? >> I would think so, I mean, the company's growing. I was just talking to somebody. The story they have to tell is substantive and really simple. There's some smart people over there, and I think there are friendly ears out there to hear what they have to say. >> Yeah, anything with identity, know your customer's a big term, and you hear in blockchain and anti-money laundering, know your customer, big term, you're seeing more of that now. Certainly seeing Facebook, Twitter, and Alphabet in front of the Senate getting peppered, I thought that was interesting. We followed those guys pretty deeply. They got hammered, like what's going on, how could you let this happen? Not that it was national security, but it was a major FUD campaign going on on those platforms. That's data, right, so it wasn't necessarily hacked, per se. Great stuff, Byron, thanks for joining us here on The Cube, appreciate it. And your website is lastwatchdog.com. >> Yes. >> Okay, lastwatchdog.com. Byron Acohido here inside The Cube. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from New York City It's TheCube. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> It got out of control, they were testing it. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in New York City for CyberConnect 2017. This is Cube's coverage is presented by Centrify. It's an industry event, bringing all the leaders of industry and government together around all the great opportunities to solve the crisis of our generation. That's cyber security. We have Cricket Liu. Chief DNS architect and senior fellow at Infoblox. Cricket, great to see you again. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, nice to be back John. >> So we're live here and really this is the first inaugural event of CyberConnect. Bringing government and industry together. We saw the retired general on stage talking about some of the history, but also the fluid nature. We saw Jim from Aetna, talking about how unconventional tactics and talking about domains and how he was handling email. That's a DNS problem. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You're the DNS guru. DNS has become a role in this. What's going on here around DNS? Why is it important to CyberConnect? >> Well, I'll be talking tomorrow about the first anniversary, well, a little bit later than the first anniversary of the big DDoS attack on Dyn. The DNS hosting provider up in Manchester, New Hampshire. And trying to determine if we've actually learned anything, have we improved our DNS infrastructure in any way in the ensuing year plus? Are we doing anything from the standards, standpoint on protecting DNS infrastructure. Those sorts of things. >> And certainly one of the highlight examples was mobile users are masked by the DNS on, say, email for example. Jim was pointing that out. I got to ask you, because we heard things like sink-holing addresses, hackers create domain names in the first 48 hours to launch attacks. So there's all kinds of tactical things that are being involved with, lets say, domain names for instance. >> Cricket: Yeah, yeah. >> That's part of the critical infrastructure. So, the question is how, in DDoS attacks, denial-of-service attacks, are coming in in the tens of thousands per day? >> Yeah, well that issue that you talked about, in particular the idea that the bad guys register brand new domain names, domain names that initially have no negative reputation associated with them, my friend Paul Vixie and his new company Farsight Security have been working on that. They have what is called a -- >> John: What's the name of the company again? >> Farsight Security. >> Farsight? >> And they have what's called a Passive DNS Database. Which is a database basically of DNS telemetry that is accumulated from big recursive DNS servers around the internet. So they know when a brand new domain name pops up, somewhere on the internet because someone has to resolve it. And they pump all of these brand new domain names into what's called a response policy zone feed. And you can get for example different thresh holds. I want to see the brand new domain names created over the last 30 minutes or seen over the last 30 minutes. And if you block resolution of those brand new domain names, it turns out you block a tremendous amount of really malicious activity. And then after say, 30 minutes if it's a legitimate domain name it falls off the list and you can resolve it. >> So this says your doing DNS signaling as a service for new name registrations because the demand is for software APIs to say "Hey, I want to create some policy around some techniques to sink-hole domain address hacks. Something like that? >> Yeah, basically this goes hand in hand with this new system response policy zone which allows you to implement DNS policy. Something that we've really never before done with DNS servers, which that's actually not quite true. There have been proprietary solutions for it. But response policy zones are an open solution that give you the ability to say "Hey I do want to allow resolution of this domain name, but not this other domain name". And then you can say "Alright, all these brand new domain names, for the first 30 minutes of their existence I don't want-- >> It's like a background check for domain names. >> Yeah, or like a wait list. Okay, you don't get resolved for the first 30 minutes, that gives the sort of traditional, reputational, analyzers, Spamhaus and Serval and people like that a chance to look you over and say "yeah, it's malicious or it's not malicious". >> So serves to be run my Paul Vixie who is the contributor to the DNS protocol-- >> Right, enormous contributor. >> So we should keep an eye on that. Check it out, Paul Vixie. Alright, so DNS's critical infrastructure that we've been talking about, that you and I, love to riff about DNS and the role What's it enabled? Obviously it's ASCII, but I got to ask you, all these Unicode stuff about the emoji and the open source, really it highlight's the Unicode phenomenon. So this is a hacker potential haven. DNS and Unicode distinction. >> It's really interesting from a DNS standpoint, because we went to a lot of effort within the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, some years ago, back when I was more involved in the IETF, some people spent a tremendous amount of effort coming up with a way to use allow people to use Unicode within domain name. So that you could type something into your browser that was in traditional or simplified Chinese or that was in Arabic or was in Hebrew or any number of other scripts. And you could type that in and it would be translated into something that we call puny code, in the DNS community, which is an ASCII equivalent to that. The issue with that though, becomes that there are, we would say glifs, most people I guess would say characters, but there are characters in Unicode that look just like, say Latin alphabet characters. So there's a lowercase 'a' for example, in cyrillic, it's not a lowercase 'a' in the Latin alphabet, it's a cyrillic 'a', but it looks just like an 'a'. So it's possible for people to register names, domain names, that in there Unicode representation, look like for example, PayPal, which of course has two a's in it, and those two a's could be cyrillic a's. >> Not truly the ASCII representation of PayPal which we resolve through the DNS. >> Exactly, so imagine how subtle an attack that would be if you were able to send out a bunch of email, including the links that said www.-- >> Someone's hacked your PayPal account, click here. >> Yeah, exactly. And if you eyeballed it you'd think Well, sure that's www.PayPal.com, but little do you know it's actually not the -- >> So Jim Ruth talked about applying some unconventional methods, because the bad guys don't subscribe to the conventional methods . They don't buy into it. He said that they change up their standards, is what I wrote down, but that was maybe their sort of security footprint. 1.5 times a day, how does that apply to your DNS world, how do you even do that? >> Well, we're beginning to do more and more with analytics DNS. The passive DNS database that I talked about. More and more big security players, including Infoblox are collecting passive DNS data. And you can run interesting analytics on that passive DNS data. And you can, in some cases, automatically detect suspicious or malicious behavior. For example you can say "Hey, look this named IP address mapping is changing really, really rapidly" and that might be an indication of let's say, fast flux. Or you can say "These domain names have really high entropy. We did an engram analysis of the labels of these". The consequence of that we believe that this resolution of these domain names, is actually being used to tunnel data out of an organization or into an organization. So there's some things you can do with these analytical algorithms in order to suss out suspicious and malicious. >> And you're doing that in as close to real time as possible, presumably right? >> Cricket: That's right. >> And so, now everybody's talking about Edge, Edge computing, Edge analytics. How will the Edge effect your ability to keep up? >> Well, the challenge I think with doing analytics on passive DNS is that you have to be able to collect that data from a lot of places. The more places that you have, the more sensors that you have collecting passive DNS data the better. You need to be able to get it out from the Edge. From those local recursive DNS servers that are actually responding to the query's that come from say your smart phone or your laptop or what have you. If you don't have that kind of data, you've only got, say, big ISPs, then you may not detect the compromise of somebody's corporate network, for example. >> I was looking at some stats when I asked the IOT questions, 'cause you're kind of teasing out kind of the edge of the network and with mobile and wearables as the general was pointing out, is that it's going to create more service area, but I just also saw a story, I don't know if it's from Google or wherever, but 80% plus roughly, websites are going to have SSL HTBS that they're resolving through. And there's reports out here that a lot of the anti virus provisions have been failing because of compromised certificates. And to quote someone from Research Park, and we want to get your reaction to this "Our results show", this is from University of Maryland College Park. "Our results show that compromised certificates pose a bigger threat than we previously believed, and is not restricted to advanced threats and digitally signed malware was common in the wild." Well before Stuxnet. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so breaches have been caused by compromising certificates of actual authority. So this brings up the whole SSL was supposed to be solving this, that's just one problem. Now you've got the certificates, well before Stuxnet. So Stuxnet really was kind of going on before Stuxnet. Now you've got the edge of the network. Who has the DNS control for these devices? Is it kind of like failing? Is it crumbling? How do we get that trust back? >> That's a good question. One of the issues that we've had is that at various points, CAs, Certificate Authorities, have been conned into issuing certificates for websites that they shouldn't have. For example, "Hey, generate a cert for me". >> John: The Chinese do it all the time. >> Exactly. I run www. Bank of America .com. They give it to the wrong guy. He installs it. We have I think, something like 1,500 top level certification authorities. Something crazy like that. Dan Komenski had a number in one of his blog posts and it was absolutely ridiculous. The number of different CA's that we trust that are built into the most common browsers, like Chrome and Firefox and things like that. We're actually trying to address some of those issues with DNS, so there are two new resource records being introduced to DNS. One is TLSA. >> John: TLSA? >> Yeah, TLSA. And the other one is called CAA I think, which always makes me think of a California Automotive Association. (laughter) But TLSA is basically a way of publishing data in your own zone that says My cert looks like this. You can say "This is my cert." You can just completely go around the CA. And you can say "This is my cert" and then your DNS sec sign your zone and you're done. Or you can do something short of that and you can say "My cert should look like this "and it should have this CA. "This is my CA. "Don't trust any other one" >> So it's metadata about the cert or the cert itself. >> Exactly, so that way if somebody manages to go get a cert for your website, but they get that cert from some untrustworthy CA. I don't know who that would be. >> John: Or a comprimised-- >> Right, or a compromised CA. No body would trust it. No body who actually looks up the TSLA record because they'll go "Oh, Okay. I can see that Infoblox's cert that their CA is Symantech. And this is not a Symantech signed cert. So I'm not going to believe it". And at the same time this CAA record is designed to be consumed by the CA's themselves, and it's a way of saying, say Infoblox can say "We are a customer of Symantech or whoever" And when somebody goes to the cert and says "Hey, I want to generate a certificate for www.Infoblox.com, they'll look it up and say "Oh, they're a Symantech customer, I'm not going to do that for you". >> So it creates trust. So how does this impact the edge of the network, because the question really is, the question that's on everyone's mind is, does the internet of things create more trust or does it create more vulnerabilities? Everyone knows it's a surface area, but still there are technical solutions when you're talking about, how does this play out in your mind? How does Infoblox see it? How do you see it? What's Paul Vixie working on, does that tie into it? Because out in the hinterlands and the edge of the network and the wild, is it like a DNS server on the device. It could be a sensor? How are they resolving things? What is the protocol for these? >> At least this gives you a greater assurance if you're using TLS to encrypt communication between a client and a web server or some other resource out there on the internet. It at least gives you a better assurance that you really aren't being spoofed. That you're going to the right place. That your communications are secure. So that's all really good. IOT, I think of as slightly orthogonal to that. IOT is still a real challenge. I mean there is so many IOT devices out there. I look at IOT though, and I'll talk about this tomorrow, and actually I've got a live event on Thursday, where I'll talk about it some more with my friend Matt Larson. >> John: Is that going to be here in New York? >> Actually we're going to be broadcasting out of Washington, D.C. >> John: Were you streaming that? >> It is streamed. In fact it's only streamed. >> John: Put a plug in for the URL. >> If you go to www.Infoblox.com I think it's one of the first things that will slide into your view. >> So you're putting it onto your company site. Infoblox.com. You and Matt Larson. Okay, cool. Thursday event, check it out. >> It is somewhat embarrassingly called Cricket Liu Live. >> You're a celebrity. >> It's also Matt Larson Live. >> Both of you guys know what you're talking about. It's great. >> So there's a discussion among certain boards of directors that says, "Look, we're losing the battle, "we're losing the war. "We got to shift more on response "and at least cover our butts. "And get some of our response mechanisms in place." What do you advise those boards? What's the right balance between sort of defense perimeter, core infrastructure, and response. >> Well, I would certainly advocate as a DNS guy, that people instrument their DNS infrastructure to the extent that they can to be able to detect evidence of compromise. And that's a relatively straight forward thing to do. And most organizations haven't gone through the trouble to plumb their DNS infrastructure into their, for example, their sim infrastructure, so they can get query log information, they can use RPZs to flag when a client looks up the domain name of a known command and control server, which is a clear indication of compromise. Those sorts of things. I think that's really important. It's a pretty easy win. I do think at this point that we have to resign ourselves to the idea that we have devices on our network that are infected. That game is lost. There's no more crunchy outer shell security. It just doesn't really work. So you have to have defensive depth as they say. >> Now servs has been around for such a long time. It's been one of those threats that just keeps coming. It's like waves and waves. So it looks like there's some things happening, that's cool. So I got to ask you, CyberConnect is the first real inaugural event that brings industry and some obviously government and tech geeks together, but it's not black hat or ETF. It's not those geeky forums. It's really a business community coming together. What's your take of this event? What's your observations? What are you seeing here? >> Well, I'm really excited to actually get the opportunity to talk to people who are chiefly security people. I think that's kind of a novelty for me, because most of the time I think I speak to people who are chiefly networking people and in particular that little niche of networking people who are interested in DNS. Although truth be told, maybe they're not really interested in DNS, maybe they just put up with me. >> Well the community is really strong. The DNS community has always been organically grown and reliable. >> But I love the idea of talking about DNS security to a security audience. And hopefully some of the folks we get to talk to here, will come away from it thinking oh, wow, so I didn't even realize that my DNS infrastructure could actually be a security tool for me. Could actually be helpful in any way in detecting compromise. >> And what about this final question, 'cause I know we got a time check here. But, operational impact of some of these DNS changes that are coming down from Paul Vixie, you and Matt Larson doing some things together, What's the impact of the customer and they say "okay, DNS will play a role in how I role out my architecture. New solutions for cyber, IOT is right around the corner. What's the impact to them in your mind operationally. >> There certainly is some operational impact, for example if you want to subscribe to RPZ feeds, you've got to become a customer of somebody who provides a commercial RPZ feed or somebody who provides a free RPZ feed. You have to plumb that into your DNS infrastructure. You have to make sure that it continues transferring. You have to plumb that into your sim, so when you get a hit against an RPZ, you're notified about it, your security folks. All that stuff is routine day to day stuff. Nothing out of the ordinary. >> No radical plumbing changes. >> Right, but I think one of the big challenges in so many of the organizations that I go to visit, the security organization and the networking organization are in different silos and they don't necessarily communicate a lot. So maybe the more difficult operational challenge is just making sure that you have that communication. And that the security guys know the DNS guys, the networking guys, and vice versa. And they cooperate to work on problems. >> This seems to be the big collaboration thing that's happening here. That it's more of a community model coming together, rather than security. Cricket Liu here, DNS, Chief Architect of DNS and senior fellow of Infoblox. The legend in the DNS community. Paul Vixie amongst the peers. Really that community holding down the fort I'll see a lot of exploits that they have to watch out for. Thanks for your commentary here at the CyberConnect 2017 inaugural event. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone and welcome to this special CUBE conversation here in our studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and cohost of theCUBE, with a special preview of CyberConnect 2017, a global security conference presented by Centrify, it's an industry-independent event. I'm here with the CEO and Founder of Centrify, Tom Kemp. Tom, thanks for joining me on this preview of CyberConnect 2017. >> It's great to be here again. >> So, you guys, obviously, as a company are no longer struggling, you're clearly clearing the runway on growth. Congratulations on the success. This event will be broadcasting live on theCUBE as folks should know on the site. CyberConnect 2017 is a different kind of event, it's really the first of its kind where it's an industry gathering, not just a Black Hat, I mean, RSA's got Black Hat and they try to weave a little business in. This is all about leadership in the industry. Is that right? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's really a dearth of business-focused discussions with C-Level people discussing the issues around security. And so, what we found was, was that most of the conversations were about the hackers, you know, the methodology of goin' in and hacking in. And, that doesn't really help the business people, they have to understand what are the higher level strategies that should be deployed to make their organizations more secure. So, we kind of wanted to up-level the conversation regarding security and help C-Level people, board people, figure out what they should be doing. >> And, we've obviously been reporting at SiliconANGLE, obviously, the latest and greatest on hacks. You know, you've seen everything from cyber threats, where are real hacking, to nuanced things like the rushing dissidents campaign on Facebook around voter impressions. And we saw that in the hearings in the senate where Facebook got really grilled by, you know, "Is it a real threat," no, but it is a threat in the sense that they're putting opinion-shaping. So, there's a broad range of business issues, some are highly-nuanced, some are very specific business values, you're out of business if you get hacked. So, how do you see that, because is that the discussion point? Is it more policy, all of the above, what is the overall conversations going to be like at CyberConnect 2017? >> Yeah, I think it's, look, the reality is, is that breaches before were about potentially stealing your data. But, now it's an impact on your brand. Like, what if the Russians were doing that to Pepsi or Coca-Cola, et cetera? They could just completely setup a lot of negative sentiment about you, so there's a lot of different ways to impact organizations as well. And so, what we're doing at CyberConnect is, putting forth CIOs of Aetna, US Bank, and having them describe what they do. I mean, think about a major healthcare company, Aetna, US Bank, the list goes on, you know, Blue Cross Blue Shield. And we're having the major CSOs of these large organizations tell their peers what they're doing to protect their company, their brands, et cetera. >> Well, I want to get back to the business impact in a second, but some notable key notes here. Securing a Nation Amid Change, A Roadmap to Freedom, from Retired General Keith Alexander, Former Director of the NSA and Chief of the U.S. Cyber Command. Why is he there, what's the focus for his talk? >> Well, you can't ignore the government aspect. Well, first of all, government is a huge target and we obviously saw that with the election, we saw that with the hack of the Office of Personnel Management, et cetera. And so, you know, nation states are going after governments as well as criminal organizations, so General Alexander can talk about what he did to protect us as citizens and our government. But, he also has a great insight in terms of what hackers are doing to go after critical infrastructure. >> John: He's got some experience thinking about it, so he's going to bring that thinking in? >> Absolutely, and he's going to give us an update on the latest vectors of attacks that are happening, and give us some insight on what he experienced trying to protect the United States but also trying to protect our businesses and infrastructure. So, we wanted to have him kick things off to give, you know, what more, the NSA, the ex-NSA head telling us what's going on. >> And you got amazing guests here, again the CSO from Aetna, the Chief Security Officer from Cisco, The Global Value Chain, you got US Bank. You got Amazon Web Services here talking about the Best Practice of Running Workloads on an Amazon Service Cloud. So, you got the gamut of industry, as well as some government people who have experienced dealing with this from a practitioners standpoint? What's the convoluence of that, what's the trends that are coming out of those? What can people expect to hear and look forward to watching the videos for? >> You know, I think it's going to be some of the trends that you guys talk about. It's like, how can you leverage AI and machine learning to help better protect your organization as well? So, that's going to be one huge trend. I think the other trend, and that's why we have the folks from Amazon, is in a world in which we're increasingly using mobile and Cloud and leaving the perimeter, you know, in a world where there's no perimeter, how can you secure your users, your data, et cetera? So, I think the focus of the conference is going to be very much on leveraging modern and new technologies, AI, machine learning, discussing concepts like Zero Trust. And then, also, figuring out and helping people really get some good ideas as they make the move to Cloud, how can they secure themselves, make themselves, more secure than when they had the traditional perimeter set up? >> I mean, given the security landscape, you and I discussed this in and around the industry, go back seven years, "Oh, Cloud's un-secure," now Cloud seems to be more secure then on perim because of the work that Amazon, for instance, they upped their game significantly in security, haven't they? >> Absolutely, and you know, it's interesting, it's, I mean, you see it first hand, Google comes out with announcements, Microsoft, Oracle, et cetera, and security is a key issue. And they're trying to provide a more secure platform to get people comfortable moving with the Cloud. At the same time, there's vendors such as Centrify, that's there's value-add that we can provide and one area that we specifically provide is in the area of identity and controlling who can access what, as well. So, yeah, it completely reshapes how you do security, and the vendors are contributing. What's so important that the solutions that we had before are being completely disruptive and they need to be completely adopted for the new Cloud world. >> I know it's your first event, you guys are underwriting this, it's presented by Centrify, it's not sponsored by, it's not your show. Although you're doing a lot of heavy lifting in supporting this, but your vision for this CyberConnect is really more of a gathering amongst industry folks. We're certainly glad to be a part of it, thanks for inviting us, we're glad to be there. But, this is not a Centrify-only thing, explain the presented by Centrify vis-a-vis CyberConnect. >> So, and we've also put forth another organization that we've worked with. It's an organization called ICIT, the Institute for Critical Information Technology. And, what they are, is they're a think tank. And they are very much about how can we support and secure the infrastructure of the United States, as well? We didn't want this to be a vendor fest, we wanted to be able to have all parties, no matter what technologies they use, to be able to come together and get value of this. It benefits Centrify because it raises awareness and visibility for us, but even more important, that we wanted to give back to the community and offer something unique and different. That this is not just another vendor fest show, et cetera, this is something where it's a bringing together of really smart people that are on the front-lines of securing their organizations. And we just felt that so much value could be driven from it. Because, all the other shows are always about how you can hack and ATM and all that stuff, and that's great, that's great for a hacker but that doesn't really help business people. >> Or vendors trying to sell something, right? >> Exactly. >> Another platform to measure something? >> Yeah, exactly. >> This is more of a laid-back approach. Well, I think that's great leadership, I want to give you some props for that. Knowing that you guys are very, as you say, community-centric. Now you mentioned community, this is about giving back and that's certainly going to be helpful. But, security has always been kind of a community thing, but now you're starting to see the business and industry community coming together. What's your vision for the security community at this CSO level? What's needed, what's your vision? >> I think what's needed is better sharing of best practices, and really, more collaboration because the same attacks that are going to happen for, say one healthcare organization, the hackers are going to use the same means and methods, as well. And so, if you get the CSOs in the room together and hear what the others are experiencing, it's just going to make them more better. So, the first thing, is to open up the communication. The second thing is, is that could we figure out a way, from a platform or a technology perspective, to share that information and share that knowledge? But, the first step is to get the people in the room to hear from their peers of what's going on. And, frankly, government at one point was supposed to be doing it, it's not really doing it, so, I think an event like this could really help in that regard. >> Well, and also, I would just point out the growth in GovCloud and following some of the stuff going on at Amazon, as an example, had been skyrocketing. So, you're starting to see industry and government coming together? >> Yeah. >> And now you got a global landscape, you know, this is interesting times and I want to get your reaction to some of the things that have been said here on theCUBE but also, out in the marketplace where, you know, it used to be state-actor game, not state on state. And then, if they revealed their cards, then they're out in the open. But now, the states are sponsoring, through open source, and also, in these public domains, whether it's a WikiLeaks or whatever, you're starting to see actors being subsidized or sponsored. And so that opens up the democratization capability for people to organize and attack the United States. And companies. >> Oh, absolutely, and you could right now, they have a help desk, and it's like ordering a service. "Oh, you want 500 bots going after this?" >> John: Smear a journalist for $10k. >> (laughing) Exactly, it's like as a service. Hacking as a service, they have help desk, et cetera. And, the interesting thing is. >> It's a business model. >> It's a business model, you're absolutely right. The people, it's all pay to play, right? And, just the number of resources being devoted and dedicated, and we're talking about thousands of people in Russia, thousands of people in North Korea, and thousands of people in China. And, what came out just recently, is now that they're shifting their target to individuals, and so, now you may have an individual that there may be a person just dedicated to them in China, or Russia or North Korea, trying to hack into them as well. So, it's getting really scary. >> It's almost too hard for one company with brute force, this is where the collective intelligence of the community really plays a big difference on the best practices because when you thought you had one model nailed, not just tech, but business model, it might shift. So, it seems like a moving train. >> Yeah, and we're having Mist show up, and so we're getting the government. But, I really think that there does need to be, kind of, more of an open-sourcing of knowledge and information to help better fine tune the machine learning that's needed and required to prevent these type of breaches. >> So, what can we expect? Obviously, this is a preview to the show, we'll be there Monday broadcasting live all day. What can people expect of the event, content-wise, what are your favorites? >> Well, I mean, first of all, just the people that we have there. We're going to get the two CCOs from two of the biggest healthcare companies, we're going to get the former head of the NSA, we're going to get the CSO of US Bank, I mean, we're talking the biggest financial services organizations. We're going to have the biggest healthcare organizations. We're going to have the people doing cyber. >> John: MasterCard's there. >> Yeah, MasterCard, we have the German government there as well, so we've got government, both U.S. as well as European. We've got all the big people in terms of, that have to secure the largest banks, the largest healthcare, et cetera. And then, we also have, as you talked about, obviously Centrify's going to be there, but we're going to have AWS, and we're going to have some other folks from some of the top vendors in the industry as well. So, it's going to be a great mixture of government, business, as well as vendors. Participating and contributing and talking about these problems. >> So, it's an inaugural event? >> Yes. >> So, you're looking for some success, we'll see how it goes, we'll be there. What can you expect, are you going to do this every year? Twice a year, what's the thoughts on the even itself? >> It's been amazing, the response. So, we just thought we were going to have 400 people, we sold out, we're getting close to 600 people. And now, we're going to have over 1,000 people that are going to be doing the live streaming. There's just a huge, pent-up demand for this, as well. So, we actually had to shut down registration and said sold out a week or two ago. And, so far, it looks really good, let's see how it goes. It looks like we can easily double this. We're already thinking about next year, we'll see how the event goes. If you just look at the line-up, look at the interest, or whatever, there's a pent-up demand to better secure government and enterprises. >> And leadership, like you guys are taking this as an issue, plus, others coming together. We're certainly super glad to be a part of the community, and we look forward to the coverage. This is really, kind of, what the industry needs. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Tom Kemp, the CEO and Founder of Centrify, really fast growing start up, doing an event for the community. Very strong approach, I love the posture, I think that's the way to go than these vendor shows. You know how I feel about that. It's all about the community, this is a community. I mean, look at the Bitcoin, the Blockchain, know you're customer isn't into money laundering. It's an identity game. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Now, by the way, quick, is there going to be any Blockchain action there? >> Oh, I don't know about that, I don't think so. >> Next year. (laughing) >> Next year, exactly. >> It's certainly coming, Blockchain security, as well as a lot of great topics. Check out CyberConnect 2017. If you can't make it to New York, they're sold out, theCUBE.net is where you can watch it live. And, of course, we'll have all the video coverage on demand, on theCUBE.net, as well. So, we'll have all the sessions and some great stuff. Tom Kemp, CEO. I'm John Furrier from theCUBE, here in Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(clicking noise) >> Hello, I'm John Furrier, SiliconANGLE media, co-host of theCUBE. We are here on the ground in, here in Santa Clara, California, Centrify's headquarters, with Tom Kemp, the CEO of Centrify, and Parham Eftekhari, who's the co-founder and senior fellow of ICIT, which is the Institute of Critical Infrastructure Technologies, here to talk about security conversation. Guys, welcome to theCUBE's On the Ground. >> Thank you. >> Great to be here. >> Great to see you again, Tom. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And congratulations on all your success. And Parham, GovCloud is hot. We were just in D.C. with Amazon Web Services Public Sector Summit. It's gotten more and more to the point where cyber is in the front conversation, and the political conversation, but on the commercial side as well. There's incidents happening every day. Just this past month, HBO, Game of Thrones has been hijacked and ransomed. I guess that's ransom, or technically, and a hack. That's high-profile, but case after case of high-profile incidents. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay, on the commercial side. Public sector side, nobody knows what's happening. Why is security evolving slow right now? Why isn't it going faster? Can you guys talk about the state of the security market? >> Yeah, well, ya know, I think first of all, you have to look at the landscape. I mean, our public and private sector organizations are being pummeled every day by nation states, mercenaries, cyber criminals, script kiddies, cyber jihadists, and they're exploiting vulnerabilities that are inherent in our antiquated legacy systems that are put together by, ya know, with a Frankenstein network as well as devices and systems and apps that are built without security by design. And we're seeing the results, as you said, right? We're seeing an inundation of breaches on a daily basis, and many more that we don't hear about. We're seeing weaponized data that's being weaponized and used against us to make us question the integrity of our democratic process and we're seeing, now, a rise in the focus on what could be the outcome of a cyberkinetic incident, which, ultimately, in the worst case scenario, could have a loss of life. And so I think as we talk about cyber and what it is we're trying to accomplish as a community, we ultimately have a responsibility to elevate the conversation and make sure that it's not an option, but it is a priority. >> Yeah, no, look, I mean, here we are in a situation in which the industry is spending close to 80 billion dollars a year, and it's growing 10 percent, but the number of attacks are increasing much more than 10 percent, and as Parham said, you know, we literally had an election impacted by cyber security. It's on the front page with HBO, et cetera. And I really think that we're now in a situation where we really need to rethink how we do security in, as enterprises and as even individuals. >> And it's seems, talking about HBO, talking about the government, you mentioned, just the chaos that's going on here in America, you almost don't know what you don't know. And with the whole news cycle going on around this, but this gets back to this notion of critical infrastructure. I love that name, and you have in your title 'ICIT,' Institute of Critical Infrastructure, because, ya know, and certainly the government has had critical infrastructure. There's been bridges, and roads, and whatnot, they've had the DNS servers, there's been some critical infrastructure at the airports and whatnot, but for corporations, the critical infrastructure used to be the front door. And then their data center. Now with cloud, no perimeter, we've talked about this on theCUBE before, you start to change the notion of what critical infrastructure is. So, I guess, Parham, what does critical infrastructure mean, from a public and commercial perspective? Tell me, you can talk about it. And what's the priorities for the businesses and governments to figure out what's the order of operations to get to the bottom of making sure everything's secure? >> Yeah, it's interesting, that's a great question, you know, when most people think about critical infrastructure as legacy technology, or legacy's, you know, its roads, its bridges, its dams. But if you look at the Department of Homeland Security, they have 16 sectors that they're tasked with protecting. Includes healthcare, finance, energy, communications, right? So as we see technology start to become more and more ingrained in all these different sectors, and we're not just talking about data, we're talking about ICS data systems. A digital attack against any one of these critical infrastructure sectors is going to have different types of outcomes, whether you're talking about a commercial sector organization, or the government. You know, one of the things that we always talk about is really the importance of elevating the conversation, as I mentioned earlier, and putting security before profits. I think, ultimately, we've gotten to this situation because a lot of companies do a cost-benefit analysis, say, "You know what? I may be in the healthcare sector, "and ultimately it'll be cheaper for me to be breached, "pay my fines, and deal with potentially even the "loss to brand, to my brand, in terms of brand value, "and that'll cheaper than investing what "I need to to protect my patients and their information." And that's the wrong way to look at it. I think now, as we were talking about this week, the cost of all this is going higher, which is going to help, but I think we need to start seeing this fundamental mind-shift in how we are prioritizing security, as I mentioned earlier. It's not an option, it must be a requisite. >> Yeah, I think what we're seeing now, is in the years past, the hackers would get at some bits of information, but now we're seeing with HBO, with Sony, they can strip mine an entire company. >> They put them out of business. >> Exactly. >> The money that they're doing with ransomeware, which is a little bit higher profile, ransomware, I mean, there's a specific business outcome, here, and it's not looking good, they go out of business. >> Oh, absolutely, and so Centrify, we just recently sponsored a survey, and nowadays, if you announce that you got breached, and you have to, now. It's 'cause you have to tell your shareholders, you have to tell your customers. Your stock drops, on average, five percent in a day. And so we're talking about billions of dollars of market capitalization that can disappear with a breach as well. So we're beyond, it's like, "Oh, they stole some data, "we'll send out a letter to our customers, "and we'll give 'em free Experian for a year." Or something like that." Now, it's like, all your IP, all the content, and John, I think you raised a very good point, as well. In the case of the federal government, it's still about the infrastructure being physical items, and of course, with internet a thing since now it's connected to the internet, so it's really scary that a bridge can flip open by some guy in the Ukraine or Russia fiddling with it. But now with enterprises, it's less and less physical, the store, and we're now going through this massive shift to the cloud, and more and more of your IP is controlled and run. It's the complete deperimeterization that makes things every more complicated. >> Well it's interesting you mentioned the industrial aspect of it, with the bridge, because this is actually a real issue with self-driving cars, this was on everyone's mind, we were just covering some content, covering Ford's event yesterday in San Francisco. They got this huge problem. Ya know, hacking of the cars. So, industrial IOT opens up, again, the surface area, but this kind of brings the question down to customers, that you guys have or companies or governments. How do they become resilient? How do they put steps in place? Because, you know, I was just talking to someone who runs a major port in the U.S., and the issues there are maritime, right? So you talk about infrastructure, container ships, obviously worry about terrorists and other things happening. But just the general IT infrastructure is neanderthal, it's like, 30 years old. >> Yeah. >> So you have legacy infrastructure, as you mentioned, but businesses also have legacy, so how do you balance where you are? How do you know the progress bar of your protection? How do you know the things you need to put in place? How do you get to resilience? >> Yeah, but see, I think there also needs to be a rethink of security. Because the traditional ways that people did it, was protecting the perimeter, having antivirus, firewalls, et cetera. But things have really changed and so now what we're seeing is that an entity has become the top attack vector going in. And so if you look at all these hacks and breaches, it's the stealing of usernames and passwords, so people are doing a good job of, the hackers are social engineering the actual users, and so, kind of a focus needs to shift of securing the old perimeter, to focusing on securing the user. Is it really John Furrier trying to access e-mail? Can we leverage biometrics in this? And trying to move to the concept of a zero-trust model, and where you have to, can't trust the network, can't trust the IP address, but you need to factor in a lot of different aspects. >> It's interesting, I was just following this blog chain because we've been covering a lot of the blog chains, immutable and encrypted, the wallets were targets. (laughing) Hey, this Greta the Wall, where they store the money. Now we own that encrypted data. So, again, this is the, hackers are fast, so, again, back to companies because they have to put if they have shareholder issues, or they have some corporate governance issues. But at the end of the day, it's a moving train. How does the government offer support? How do companies put it in place? What do they need to do? >> Yeah, well, there's a couple of things you can look at. First of all, you know, as a think tank, we're active on Capital Hill, working with members of both minority and majority sides, we're actively proposing bipartisan legislation, which provides a meaningful movement forward to secure and address some of the issues you're talking about. Senator Markey recently put out the Cyber Shield Act, which creates a type of score, right? For a device, kind of like the ENERGY STAR in the energy sector. So just this week, ICIT put out a paper in support of an amendment by Senator Lindsey Graham, which actually addresses the inherent vulnerabilities in our election systems, right? So there's a lot of good work being done. And that really goes to the core of what we do, and the reasons that we're partnering together. ICIT is in the business of educating and advising. We put out research, we make it freely available, we don't believe in com`moditizing information, we believe in liberating it. So we get it in the hands of as many people as possible, and then we get this objective research, and use it as a stepping stone to educate and to advise. And it could be through meetings, it could be through events, it could be through conversation with the media. But I think this educational process is really critical to start to change the minds of-- >> You know, if I can add to that, I think what really needs to be done with security, is better information sharing. And it's with other governments and enterprises that are under attack. Sharing that information as opposed to only having it for themselves and their advantage, and then also what's required is better knowledge of what are the best practices that need to be done to better protect both government and enterprises. >> Well, guys, I want to shift gears and talk about the CyberConnect event, which is coming up in November, an industry event. You guys are sponsoring, Centrify, but you guys are also on the ball, there's a brand new content program. It's an independent event, it's targeted to the industry, not a Centrify user group. Parham, I want to put you on the spot before we get to the CyberConnect event. You mentioned the elections. What's the general, and I'm Silicon Valley and so I had to ask the question 'cause you're in the trenches down in D.C. What is the general sentiment in D.C. right now on the hacking? Because, I was explaining it to my son the other day, like, "Yeah, the Russians probably hacked everybody, "so technically the election "fell into that market basket of hats." So maybe they did hack you. So I'm just handwaving that, but it probably makes sense. The question is, how real is the hacking threat in the minds of the folks in D.C. around Russia and potentially China and these areas? >> Yeah, I think the threat is absolutely real, but I think there has to be a difference between media, on both sides, politicizing the conversation. There's a difference between somebody going in and actually, you know, changing your vote from one side to the other. There's also the conversation about the weaponization of data and what we do know that Russia is doing with regards to having armies of trolls out there or with fake profiles, and are creating faux conversations and steering public sentiment of perception in directions that maybe wasn't already there. And so I think part of the hysteria that we see, I think we're fearful and we have a right to be fearful, but I think taking the emotion and the politics out of it, and actually doing forensic assessments from an objective perspective to understanding what truly is going on. We are having our information stolen, there is a risk that a nation state could execute a very high-impact, digital attack that has a loss of life. We do know that foreign states are trying to impact the outcomes of our democratic processes. I think it's important to understand, though, how are they doing it and is what we're reading about truly what's happening kind of on the streets. >> And that's where the industrial thing you were kind of tying together, that's the loss of life potential, using digital as an attack vector into something that could have a physical, and ultimately deadly outcome. Yeah, we covered, also that story that was put out, about the fake news infrastructure. It's not just the content that they're making up, it's actually the infrastructure fake news. Bionets, and whatnot. And I think Mike Rowe wrote a story on this, where they actually detailed, you can smear a journalist for 40K. >> Yeah. >> These are actually out there, that are billed for specifically these counter... Programs. >> As a service. You know, go on a forum on the Deep Web and you can contract these types of things out. And it's absolutely out there. >> And then what do you say to your average American friends, that you're saying, hey, having a cocktail with, you're at a dinner. What's going on with security? What do you say to them? You should be worried, calm down, no we're on it. What's the message that you share with your friends that aren't in the industry? >> Personally, I think the message is that, you know, you need to vigilant, you need to, it may be annoying, but you do have to practice good cyber hygiene, think about your passwords, think about what you're sharing on social media. We'd also talk, and I personally believe that, some of these things will not change unless we as consumers change what is acceptable to us. If we stop buying devices or systems or apps based on the convenience that it brings to our lives, and we say, "I'm not going to spend money on that car, "because I don't know if it's secure enough for me." You will see industry change very quickly. So I think-- >> John: Consumer behavior is critical. >> Absolutely. That's definitely a piece of it. >> Alright, guys, so exciting event coming up, theCUBE will be covering the CyberConnect event in November. The dates, I think, November-- >> Sixth and seventh. >> Sixth and seventh in New York City at the Grand Hyatt. Talk about the curriculum, because this is a unique event, where you guys are bringing your sponsorship to the table, but providing an open industry event. What's the curriculum, what's the agenda, what's the purpose of the event? >> Yeah, Tom. >> Okay, I'll take it, yeah. I mean, historically, like other security vendors, we've had our users' conference, right? And what we've found is that, as you alluded to, that there just needs to be better education of what's going on. And so, instead of just limiting it to us talking to our customers about us, we really need to broaden the conversation. And so that's why we brought in ICIT, to really help us broaden the conversation, raise more awareness and visibility for what needs to be done. So this is a pretty unique conference in that we're having a lot of CSOs from some incredible enterprise, as well as government. General Alexander, the former of the Cyber Security Command is a keynote, but we have the CSO of Aetna, Blue Cross involved, as well. So we want to raise the awareness in terms of, what are the best practices? What are the leading minds thinking about security? And then parallel, also, for our customers, we're going to have a parallel track where, if they want to get more product-focused technology. So this is not a Centrify event. This is an industry event, ya know. Black Hat is great, RSA is great, but it's really more at the, kind of the bits and bytes-- >> They're very narrow, but you are only an identity player. There's a bigger issue. What about these other issues? Will you discuss-- >> Oh, absolutely. >> Yeah, well-- >> Is it an identity or is it more? >> It actually is more, and this is one of the reasons, at a macro level, the work that we've done at Centrify, for a number of years now. You know, we have shared the same philosophy that we have a responsibility, as experts in the cyberspace, to move the industry forward and to really usher in, almost a cyber security renaissance, if you will. And so, this is really the vision behind CyberConnect. So if you look at the curriculum, we're talking about, you know, corporate espionage, and how it's impacting commercial organizations. We're talking about the role of machine-learning based artificial intelligence. We'll be talking about the importance of encrypting your data. About security by design. About what's going on with the bot net epidemic that's out there. So there absolutely will be a very balanced program, and it is, again, driven and grounded in that research that ICIT is putting out in the relationships that we have with some of these key players. >> So you institute a critical infrastructure technology, the think tank that you're the co-founder of. You're bringing that broader agenda to CyberConnect. >> That's correct, absolutely. >> So this is awesome, congratulations, I got to ask, on the thought leadership side, you guys have been working together. Can you just talk about your relationship between Centrify and ICIT? So you're independent, you guys are a vendor. Talk about this relationship and why it's so important to this event. >> Well, absolutely. I mean, look, as a security vendor, you know, a lot of, a big percentage of security vendors sell into the U.S. federal government, and through those conversations that a lot of the CSOs at these governments were pointing at us to these ICIT guys, right? And we got awareness and visibility thought that. And it was like, they were just doing great stuff in terms of talking about, yes, Centrify is a leading identity provider, but people are looking for a complete solution, looking for a balanced way to look at it. And so we felt that it would be a great opportunity to partner with these guys. And so we sponsored an event that they did, Winter Summit. And then they did such a great job and the content was amazing, the people they had, that we said, "You know what? "Let's make this more of a general thing and "let's be in the background helping facilitate this, "but let the people hear about this good information." >> So you figured out the community model? (laughs) No, 'cause this is really what works. You got to enable, you're enabling this conversation, and more than ever in the security system, would love to get your perspective on this, is that there's an ethos developing, has been developed. And it's expanding aggressively. Kind of opens doors on one side, but security's all about data sharing. You mentioned that-- >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From a hacking standpoint, that's more of a statutory filing, but here, the security space is highly communicative. They talk to each other, and it's a trust relationship, so you're essentially bringing an independent event, you're funding it. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> It's not your event, this is an independent event. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, and so Tom said it very well, as an institute, we rely on the financial capital that comes in from our partners, like Centrify. And so we would be unable to deliver at a large scale the value that we do to the legislative community, to federal agencies, and the commercial sector, and the institute's research is being shared on NATO libraries and embassies around the world. So this is really a global operation that we have. And so when we talk about layered security, right, we're not into a silver bullet solution. A lot of faux experts out there say, "I have the answer." We know that there's a layered approach that needs to be done. Centrify, they have the technology that plays a part in that, but, even more important than that for us is that they share that same philosophy and we do see ourselves as being able to usher in the changes required to move everything forward. And so it's been a great, you know, we have a lot of plans for the next few years. >> Yeah, that's great work, you're bringing in some great content to the table, and that's what people want, and they can see who's enabling it, that's a great business model for everyone. I got to ask one question, though, about your business. I love the critical infrastructure focus and I like your value you guys are bringing. But you guys have this fellow program. Can you just talk about this, 'cause your a part of the fellowship-- >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You're on a level, and I don't want to say credit 'cause you're not really going to get credit. But it's a badge, it's a bar. >> Yeah, yeah, no-- >> Explain the fellow program. >> That's a great question. At the institute, we have a core group of experts who represent different technology niches. They make up our fellow program, and so as I discussed earlier, when we're putting out research, when we're educating the media, when we're advising congress, when we're doing the work of the institute, we're constantly turning back to our fellow program members to provide some of that research and expertise. And sharing, you know, not just providing financial capital, but really bringing that thought leadership to the table. Centrify is a part of our fellows program, and so we've been working with them for a number of years. It's very exclusive and there's a process. You have to be referred in by an existing fellow program member. We have a lot of requests, but it really comes down to, do you understand what we're trying to accomplish? Do you share our same mission, our same values? And can you be part of this elite community that we've built? And so, you know, Centrify is a big part of that. >> And the cloud, obviously, is accelerating everything. You've got the cloud action, certainly, in your space, and we know what's going on in our world. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> The world is moving at a zillion miles an hour. It's like literally moving a train. So, congratulations, CyberConnect event in November. Great event, check it out, theCUBE will be there, we'll have live coverage, we broadcast, be documenting all the action and bringing it to you on theCUBE, obviously, (mumbles) John Furrier, here at Centrify's headquarters in California, in Silicon Valley, thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE covering DataWorks Summit 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Good morning, welcome to theCUBE. We are live at day 2 of the DataWorks Summit, and have had a great day so far, yesterday and today, I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host George Gilbert. George and I are very excited to be joined by a multiple CUBE alumni, the co-founder and VP of Engineering at Hortonworks Arun Murthy. Hey, Arun. >> Thanks for having me, it's good to be back. >> Great to have you back, so yesterday, great energy at the event. You could see and hear behind us, great energy this morning. One of the things that was really interesting yesterday, besides the IBM announcement, and we'll dig into that, was that we had your CEO on, as well as Rob Thomas from IBM, and Rob said, you know, one of the interesting things over the last five years was that there have been only 10 companies that have beat the S&P 500, have outperformed, in each of the last five years, and those companies have made big bets on data science and machine learning. And as we heard yesterday, these four meta-trains IoT, cloud streaming, analytics, and now the fourth big leg, data science. Talk to us about what Hortonworks is doing, you've been here from the beginning, as a co-founder I've mentioned, you've been with Hadoop since it was a little baby. How is Hortonworks evolving to become one of those big users making big bets on helping your customers, and yourselves, leverage machine loading to really drive the business forward? >> Absolutely, a great question. So, you know, if you look at some of the history of Hadoop, it started off with this notion of a data lake, and then, I'm talking about the enterprise side of Hadoop, right? I've been working for Hadoop for about 12 years now, you know, the last six of it has been as a vendor selling Hadoop to enterprises. They started off with this notion of data lake, and as people have adopted that vision of a data lake, you know, you bring all the data in, and now you're starting to get governance and security, and all of that. Obviously the, one of the best ways to get value over the data is the notion of, you know, can you, sort of, predict what is going to happen in your world of it, with your customers, and, you know, whatever it is with the data that you already have. So that notion of, you know, Rob, our CEO, talks about how we're trying to move from a post-transactional world to a pre-transactional world, and doing the analytics and data sciences will be, obviously, with me. We could talk about, and there's so many applications of it, something as similar as, you know, we did a demo last year of, you know, of how we're working with a freight company, and we're starting to show them, you know, predict which drivers and which routes are going to have issues, as they're trying to move, alright? Four years ago we did the same demo, and we would say, okay this driver has, you know, we would show that this driver had an issue on this route, but now, within the world, we can actually predict and let you know to take preventive measures up front. Similarly internally, you know, you can take things from, you know, mission-learning, and log analytics, and so on, we have a internal problem, you know, where we have to test two different versions of HDP itself, and as you can imagine, it's a really, really hard problem. We have the support, 10 operating systems, seven databases, like, if you multiply that matrix, it's, you know, tens of thousands of options. So, if you do all that testing, we now use mission-learning internally, to look through the logs, and kind of predict where the failures were, and help our own, sort of, software engineers understand where the problems were, right? An extension of that has been, you know, the work we've done in Smartsense, which is a service we offer our enterprise customers. We collect logs from their Hadoop clusters, and then they can actually help them understand where they can either tune their applications, or even tune their hardware, right? They might have a, you know, we have this example I really like where at a really large enterprise Financial Services client, they had literally, you know, hundreds and, you know, and thousands of machines on HDP, and we, using Smartsense, we actually found that there were 25 machines which had bad NIC configuration, and we proved to them that by fixing those, we got a 30% to put back on their cluster. At that scale, it's a lot of money, it's a lot of cap, it's a lot of optics So, as a company, we try to ourselves, as much as we, kind of, try to help our customers adopt it, that make sense? >> Yeah, let's drill down on that even a little more, cause it's pretty easy to understand what's the standard telemetry you would want out of hardware, but as you, sort of, move up the stack the metrics, I guess, become more custom. So how do you learn, not just from one customer, but from many customers especially when you can't standardize what you're supposed to pull out of them? >> Yeah so, we're sort of really big believers in, sort of, doctoring your own stuff, right? So, we talk about the notion of data lake, we actually run a Smartsense data lake where we actually get data across, you know, the hundreds of of our customers, and we can actually do predictive mission-learning on that data in our own data lake. Right? And to your point about how we go up the stack, this is, kind of, where we feel like we have a natural advantage because we work on all the layers, whether it's the sequel engine, or the storage engine, or, you know, above and beyond the hardware. So, as we build these models, we understand that we need more, or different, telemetry right? And we put that back into the product so the next version of HDP will have that metrics that we wanted. And, now we've been doing this for a couple of years, which means we've done three, four, five turns of the crank, obviously something we always get better at, but I feel like, compared to where we were a couple of years ago when Smartsense first came out, it's actually matured quite a lot, from that perspective. >> So, there's a couple different paths you can add to this, which is customers might want, as part of their big data workloads, some non-Hortonworks, you know, services or software when it's on-prem, and then can you also extend this management to the Cloud if they want to hybrid setup where, in the not too distant future, the Cloud vendor will be also a provider for this type of management. >> So absolutely, in fact it's true today when, you know, we work with, you know, Microsoft's a great partner of ours. We work with them to enable Smartsense on HDI, which means we can actually get the same telemetry back, whether you're running the data on an on-prem HDP, or you're running this on HDI. Similarly, we shipped a version of our Cloud product, our Hortonworks Data Cloud, on Amazon and again Smartsense preplanned there, so whether you're on an Amazon, or a Microsoft, or on-prem, we get the same telemetry, we get the same data back. We can actually, if you're a customer using many of these products, we can actually give you that telemetry back. Similarly, if you guys probably know this we have, you were probably there in an analyst when they announced the Flex Support subscription, which means that now we can actually take the support subscription you have to get from Hortonworks, and you can actually use it on-prem or on the Cloud. >> So in terms of transforming, HDP for example, just want to make sure I'm understanding this, you're pulling in data from customers to help evolve the product, and that data can be on-prem, it can be in a Microsoft lesur, it can be an AWS? >> Exactly. The HDP can be running in any of these, we will actually pull all of them to our data lake, and they actually do the analytics for us and then present it back to the customers. So, in our support subscription, the way this works is we do the analytics in our lake, and it pushes it back, in fact to our support team tickets, and our sales force, and all the support mechanisms. And they get a set of recommendations saying Hey, we know this is the work loads you're running, we see these are the opportunities for you to do better, whether it's tuning a hardware, tuning an application, tuning the software, we sort of send the recommendations back, and the customer can go and say Oh, that makes sense, the accept that and we'll, you know, we'll update the recommendation for you automatically. Then you can have, or you can say Maybe I don't want to change my kernel pedometers, let's have a conversation. And if the customer, you know, is going through with that, then they can go and change it on their own. We do that, sort of, back and forth with the customer. >> One thing that just pops into my mind is, we talked a lot yesterday about data governance, are there particular, and also yesterday on stage were >> Arun: With IBM >> Yes exactly, when we think of, you know, really data-intensive industries, retail, financial services, insurance, healthcare, manufacturing, are there particular industries where you're really leveraging this, kind of, bi-directional, because there's no governance restrictions, or maybe I shouldn't say none, but. Give us a sense of which particular industries are really helping to fuel the evolution of Hortonworks data lake. >> So, I think healthcare is a great example. You know, when we started off, sort of this open-source project, or an atlas, you know, a couple of years ago, we got a lot of traction in the healthcare sort of insurance industry. You know, folks like Aetna were actually founding members of that, you know, sort of consortium of doing this, right? And, we're starting to see them get a lot of leverage, all of this. Similarly now as we go into, you know, Europe and expand there, things like GDPR, are really, really being pardoned, right? And, you guys know GDPR is a really big deal. Like, you pay, if you're not compliant by, I think it's like March of next year, you pay a portion of your revenue as fines. That's, you know, big money for everybody. So, I think that's what we're really excited about the portion with IBM, because we feel like the two of us can help a lot of customers, especially in countries where they're significantly, highly regulated, than the United States, to actually get leverage our, sort of, giant portfolio of products. And IBM's been a great company to atlas, they've adopted wholesale as you saw, you know, in the announcements yesterday. >> So, you're doing a Keynote tomorrow, so give us maybe the top three things, you're giving the Keynote on Data Lake 3.0, walk us through the evolution. Data Lakes 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, where you are now, and what folks can expect to hear and see in your Keynote. >> Absolutely. So as we've, kind of, continued to work with customers and we see the maturity model of customers, you know, initially people are staying up a data lake, and then they'd want, you know, sort of security, basic security what it covers, and so on. Now, they want governance, and as we're starting to go to that journey clearly, our customers are pushing us to help them get more value from the data. It's not just about putting the data lake, and obviously managing data with governance, it's also about Can you help us, you know, do mission-learning, Can you help us build other apps, and so on. So, as we look to there's a fundamental evolution that, you know, Hadoop legal system had to go through was with advance of technologies like, you know, a Docker, it's really important first to help the customers bring more than just workloads, which are sort of native to Hadoop. You know, Hadoop started off with MapReduce, obviously Spark's went great, and now we're starting to see technologies like Flink coming, but increasingly, you know, we want to do data science. To mass market data science is obviously, you know, people, like, want to use Spark, but the mass market is still Python, and R, and so on, right? >> Lisa: Non-native, okay. >> Non-native. Which are not really built, you know, these predate Hadoop by a long way, right. So now as we bring these applications in, having technology like Docker is really important, because now we can actually containerize these apps. It's not just about running Spark, you know, running Spark with R, or running Spark with Python, which you can do today. The problem is, in a true multi-tenant governed system, you want, not just R, but you want specifics of a libraries for R, right. And the libraries, you know, George wants might be completely different than what I want. And, you know, you can't do a multi-tenant system where you install both of them simultaneously. So Docker is a really elegant solution to problems like those. So now we can actually bring those technologies into a Docker container, so George's Docker containers will not, you know, conflict with mine. And you can actually go to the races, you know after the races, we're doing data signs. Which is really key for technologies like DSX, right? Because with DSX if you see, obviously DSX supports Spark with technologies like, you know, Zeppelin which is a front-end, but they also have Jupiter, which is going to work the mass market users for Python and R, right? So we want to make sure there's no friction whether it's, sort of, the guys using Spark, or the guys using R, and equally importantly DSX, you know, in the short map will also support things like, you know, the classic IBM portfolio, SBSS and so on. So bringing all of those things in together, making sure they run with data in the data lake, and also the computer in the data lake, is really big for us. >> Wow, so it sounds like your Keynote's going to be very educational for the folks that are attending tomorrow, so last question for you. One of the themes that occurred in the Keynote this morning was sharing a fun-fact about these speakers. What's a fun-fact about Arun Murthy? >> Great question. I guess, you know, people have been looking for folks with, you know, 10 years of experience on Hadoop. I'm here finally, right? There's not a lot of people but, you know, it's fun to be one of those people who've worked on this for about 10 years. Obviously, I look forward to working on this for another 10 or 15 more, but it's been an amazing journey. >> Excellent. Well, we thank you again for sharing time again with us on theCUBE. You've been watching theCUBE live on day 2 of the Dataworks Summit, hashtag DWS17, for my co-host George Gilbert. I am Lisa Martin, stick around we've got great content coming your way.

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. (techno music) >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. And welcome back to Red Hat Summit. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Stu, we were saying this is your 100th Red Hat Summit, so congratulations on reaching that milestone. Joe Dickman is here. He's the senior vice president of Vizuri. Cool name, love it. And Michael Quintero, or Quintero if you prefer, of LogistiCare. He's an enterprise solutions architect. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. >> So Vizuri. Love the name. It strikes a visualization. It's (mumbles) trendy. Tell us about Vizuri, and tell us about your relationship with LogistiCare, and we'll get into it. >> Vizuri is the private division of a company called AEM Corporation. We created the brand to serve the commercial market for research and development. We became partners with JBoss before Red Hat's acquisition, so we jumped into open source in like 2003. And since then, we've built a business around open source technologies, and market leading technologies that bring value. We found LogistiCare because they solicited us for some work to help them transform their organization. And it's worked out well. I mean, Michael and I have been working together for about 18 months. >> So, tell us a little bit about LogistiCare. >> So LogistiCare is the world's largest provider of non-emergency medical transportation. So, we service the health market around people have benefits. The insurance companies don't provide transportation, and the members come to us and we broker the transportation for them. Been in business for quite some time. Do about 70 million trips a year, a little bit more. And we have roughly 80% of that market. And we just want to stay on top of, and be recognized as the world leader in that capability with the best services and the care for our members. >> So JBoss of course was like the second pillar for Red Hat after Red Hat (mumbles) Rob Bearden, who was a CEO at the time, and Cube alum and friend. But so, how did you utilize that capability, the sort of whole middleware, and how does that affect your digital transformation? And where did you guys all fit together? >> So, well digital transformation is a business strategy, not a technology. So, we looked at our need to be more flexible, and dynamic, and innovate. Our legacy, our what we call classic internally, software stack is limiting. It's not service oriented. It's not extensible. It's a compiled, executable, distributed -- serves the business very well. In fact, we're still using it today in some aspects. We haven't fully replaced it. But it's long in the tooth, and it's difficult for us to reach that new business requirement and test and deliver it scale. So, I joined the company to help modernize that architecture. Very quickly recognized that in order to get to scale, and loosely coupling, and massive customization, that microservices was a good solution for us. And when we surveyed the market for a partner that could help take us there, software wise, Red Hat has the most complete stack. They offer everything we need to do, and then they have the things we think we're going to do in the future. So, we looked around for somebody who could help us get to the Red Hat, enable to that, with Docker, and get to an auto-scaling kind of solution so we have infrastructure on demand. And we found Vizuri as a partner. They were able to help us enable the technology and teach us how to do things that we weren't presently doing. Because we didn't have any kind of scale solution in-house, it was just put more web servers out there. >> We started small, it started with a Business Process Management System. If you think about all the logistics that are necessary for coordinating medical transport, "I'm a dialysis patient. I'm somebody that is home-bound. I need to get to a physician appointment." We took that domain knowledge, that's part of one of the pillars of digital transformation. It's infrastructure, it's integration, and it's knowledge management. We started with knowledge management. Think about all the complex business rules for manage care organizations, reimbursement, right? Which is what LogistiCare does. Quickly after we solved that problem, we looked at integration, and we said, "Well now we have all these trading partners." So we guided LogistiCare into their next purchase which was Fuse. So now we had an API strategy for publicly linking them to other consumer providers, because they are a logistics organization for reimbursement. And as Michael said, we started building data centers. Or LogistiCare did. But guess what? Containers and OpenShift came in and we started provisioning our development environments to Amazon Web Services. And when they saw the cost-savings, they abandoned building out on-prem data centers, and went Cloud-native. >> So there's also a revenue drive, or component, as well, right? >> It is. It is. It's an OpEx (mumbles) and the CapEx cost-savings. >> Let's unpack both of those. >> Joe: Sure. >> Where do you want to start? Cost or the telephone numbers? (laughs) >> So, we're mostly a call center based company in history. Right? We have 20-something call centers around the country. We service most of the U.S. And we have a variety of contracts with medical care providers, like Aetna, and Wellpoint, and Blue Cross, and those type people. And then the managed care organizations come in. So, we look to reduce our OpEx by diminishing the number and the interfaces that we have with our call centers. People don't have to call in to the call centers to do business with us. You know, something like one-minute reduction in call-time is about a six or seven million dollar a year benefit for us. And there's a lot of things that people can do for themselves. I mean, you can call in and cancel a trip that they've had scheduled. We figured that about 30% of the cancellation rate, if we could get that done through a service interface, through an IVR, where you can come in and say "I'm not going to go." and cancel it. That's a five or six million dollar savings for us right there. Just in 30%. >> Michael, I'm curious. Was there any hesitancy inside to say, "Okay. I'm going to kill data centers, going to go to a public Cloud." You know, how did that transition go? And anything, you know, kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly that you could share. >> So, well, we're a healthcare company. HIPA and HITRUST certified coming. And there's a certain amount of fear on Cloud migration. So we had to demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and abilities around getting secure, scalable solutions out to the Cloud. And this is our core application. If we don't do this well, we could become Blockbuster and go away. Right? So we don't want that. So, we had Vizuri come to the table and help us understand just how secure we can be, how OpenShift is helping us make sure our information is never violated. There's great integrity in it. And then we did prototyping, and we actually evaluated it, and we have third parties that come in and take a look at our solution and say, "Can I penetrate that? Can I get into your information?" So, and, we also are subject to audit, not only by the federal government, but by all of our payer partners. So we have to be above the line in every criteria, and we think that we are. >> The other thing that you mention was, when we talk about OpEx, right? That's human capital. He talked about the minute per time on a call. We also reduce tribal knowledge. Think about all these new managed care organizations in health care. Is it the call center representative, is it our responsibility to train them on this car, and this company requires a car service, this company requires an ambulance. That knowledge, if we could eliminate that and put that in the middle tier. Now what we do is we have given them a business scale. Now they have a business strategy for taking on new managed health care organizations. Do you have different compliance rules? Do you have different knowledge? It is no longer us having to go back out to those 20 call centers and re-train everybody, because you never know where the consumers are coming from. So, what they do is they answer the phone, they put their information into the system, and the system makes the deterministic call as to what car service, when, and how it's reimbursed. >> So, you say you automated essentially that tribal knowledge. >> Joe: We did. >> Eliminated it. >> And we reduced it so it not only reduced the calls per time frame, but it sped up our time of getting a call center agent from three weeks of training down to basically one. >> Yes, and we have the ability now to support all of our contracts from any call center. So if there's disaster recovery models, or, you know, Phoenix for instance is one of our larger call centers and they get heavy downpours of rain there. There are times when people can't get to work, or they have outages. We can't afford for that function to be offline. So those skills are very easily moved to another call center to support the members that would call in there. Just route the calls. And there's no local knowledge about, you know, my contract in Arizona does a certain thing, or in the Southwest, so it's very simple to support our population from any call center. That gives us the benefit of providing very high quality service, 'cause people when they call in, they expect us to service them. >> Joe, I want to follow up. We were talking about kind of, you know, hesitancy, healthcare tends to be a little bit conservative. I hear things like microservices, and containers. You know, these are still relatively new things. Is (mumbles) -- sorry, OpenShift the solution that allows you to deliver that with confidence to your customers? >> Yes. OpenShift. (laughs) >> Yeah, sorry about that. (laughs) >> No worries. (laughs) OpenShift does. What happens is the Docker container format enables us to pre-configure those servers and those workloads, and we talked about microservices. We wanted to reduce the business decisions or the integrations into the smallest component. What we also wanted to do was provide some taxonomy with them. These are for billing, these are for scheduling, these are for a different aspect of the business. By that, we can change, and we can change often. >> Mhm. >> How long did it take before if we wanted to make a change to some of the infrastructure? >> So. >> Weeks? Months? >> Well, even longer. I mean infrastructure is hard to acquire. And you only talk about CapEx expense. It's very easy, I mean there's a refresh cycle for equipment that you get. So even when you have it, you have to pay attention to maintenance and keeping that thing going forward. As you add scale to your business, you got to go acquire more storage. And it's not a dynamic thing. You have to plan -- the planning cycle is very difficult. We moved to the Cloud. Now we have infrastructure on demand. There's a myriad of choices of platforms and solutions that we can apply to our business model. Things we hadn't even thought of before. We're actually looking now at potentially moving our call centers away from our in-house standard, and moving to an Amazon provided call center solution. Because it can scale. And we can consolidate. And we can provide service from anywhere in the world. That's a big benefit to us. >> It is. So call center as a service, essentially. >> Michael: Yes. >> Is something you're evaluating. >> Think about how big they are. 80 million rides, right. What they didn't want to do is be disintermediated by the newcomers. Right? The Uber's, the Lyft's. They had a large footprint. So, he used the word Blockbuster before, and that's what they use a lot internally. >> Dave: There's one left, in Alaska, I heard. (laughs) >> Who remembers Blockbuster? And then they remember how Blockbuster was no longer in business. So what they wanted to do is to ensure that -- they agilely transformed not only the software engineering discipline, but their firm beliefs. So, everybody from business analysis through implementation has this new agile approach. And one of the features that we developed, we used to send people home after four hours of dialysis in taxi cabs. So, an executive, or team, at LogistiCare said, "We need dependency. We need certified drivers." They actually entered into a business relationship with Lyft. And you want to talk about an agile enterprise? We developed a custom interface into Lyft with a scheduling service that never existed, within five weeks. >> Michael: That's right. >> We would never have been able to do that. And we moved our first ride after five weeks, and since then, we're currently up to about five or six thousand. But it's going to scale to thousands. And the goal is to, again, as Michael said, let people interface with LogistiCare by their device of choice. If we don't have to have people call in to cancel rides, or call in to schedule, then the business scales, and it scales without human capital. >> And the enablers there, (mumbles) we always talk about it, people, process, and technology. So the technology behind that was, what, you're living this API economy that everybody talks about. >> Michael And Joe: We are. >> Joe: That is exactly what we did. >> And then you've got underneath that, OpenShift, what else is sort of there that you're leveraging? >> BPMS, BRMS. So, Business Process Management System. Business Rules Management System. JBoss fused for an integration strategy and Camel Routes. And then Openshift, and then we do Ansible for doing server provisioning. >> And I have to ask you about the security question again. Stu was (mumbles) poking at it before. We've heard from a lot of practitioners that the security in the Cloud is just fine, it is great actually. The challenge is, it doesn't necessarily exactly map the edicts of our organization. So, is that, did you find that? And did you have to maybe change the way in which you plugged into AWS, or was it just sort of out of the box for you? >> So, you have to understand the shared responsibility model when you move to the Cloud, right? I mean they're very good at the security in the Cloud, or of the Cloud, and you have to be good at the security in the Cloud. You can choose bad technology at Amazon and be insecure. But they have a published, HIPA standard, that if you use these technologies, then you can be HIPA certified. We applied our HITRUST certification standards to our choices. We're making very solid -- and this isn't willy nilly. I mean I've been in a HIPA solution for 20 years. So it's not like I don't know what is required, and what the auditors are going to ask us. So, but I do want to redress one point that we can't go past. Is that (mumbles) Our customers are getting better service from all this we're doing. >> Joe: I agree. >> When somebody calls us and says, "I'm ready to go home from the doctor." and they didn't know what time they were going to go home when they scheduled their ride to the doctor, we can get somebody there in 10 minutes now to come and get them and take them home. >> Dave: Wow. >> That's a great satisfier. Rather than having to wait 90 minutes for us to find somebody that can go pick them up. That world has changed, right? And that's a great customer satisfier and that is why they're going to love continuing to do business with us. >> Great business outcome from something that you probably couldn't have done, you know, five years ago? Even maybe two years ago. >> They're a social caring organization. One of the largest rides that they do is for kidney dialysis. And those people, I mean, I've never had it, but somebody sitting there after four hours of dialysis, the last thing you want to do is wait 90 minutes for a cab. You want to go home. You also want to have an authoritative source that the drivers are credentialed drivers. And that's something that we're working on so that not only do these older generations, right? And think about the baby boomers, which I'm actually part of. >> Michael: Me too. (laughs) >> The age population is growing. So the need for these types of services is growing too. And we become accustomed and we get set in our ways. And people might be fearful. Any taxi showing up, versus now, a Lyft shows up, you know who the driver is. You see the car, you see that. There's a high degree of confidence that LogistiCare has the best interests of their constituents. So they manage that type of business. So it's not just technology, it really is a caring and methodical organization. >> But we have the ability to follow patterns that are already established. We look at how Netflix handles their widely distributed kinds of interface devices. You know, how do they figure out what kind of data-stream to send back to what he's got in his hand versus what I have. We're following the same kind of model, and we're using the technology platform to our best advantage to make sure that we're talking to someone who's got a flip-phone differently than we are talking to someone who's got a (mumbles) Plus, right? (Dave laughs) Because the payload can't be the same, but the backend services don't need to know that. We built a solution here that can examine the request and return the right data-stream. So, "Where's my ride?" Might be "Just around the corner." or it might be a map with a breadcrumb trail and a picture of the driver and all of that. Like you get with a Lyft or an Uber. So, you know, we're building it. >> Great case study, gentlemen. Thanks very much for coming to the Cube and sharing it. >> Well, thank you very much for having, we enjoyed the time. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody. We'll be right back with our next guests. This is the Cube. We're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. Be right back. (electronic music)