>> from atop the Salesforce Tower in downtown San Francisco. It's the Q covering Accenture Innovation Date brought to you by ex center >> Hey, welcome back Your body jefe Rick here from the Cube were high atop San Francisco in the essential innovation hub. It's in the middle of the Salesforce Tower. It's a beautiful facility. They think you had it. The grand opening about six months ago. We're here for the grand opening. Very cool space. I got maker studios. They've got all kinds of crazy stuff going on. But we're here today to talk about Cloud in this continuing evolution about cloud in the enterprise and hybrid cloud and multi cloud in Public Cloud and Private Cloud. And we're really excited to have a couple of guys who really helping customers make this journey, cause it's really tough to do by yourself. CEOs are super busy. They worry about security and all kinds of other things. So centers, often a trusted partner. We got two of the leaders from center joining us today's Prasad Sankaran. He's the senior managing director of Intelligent Cloud infrastructure for Center Welcome and Larry Soccer, the global managing director. Intelligent cloud infrastructure offering from central gentlemen. Welcome. I love it. It intelligent cloud. What is an intelligent cloud all about? Got it in your title. It must mean something pretty significant. >> Yeah, I think First of all, thank you for having us, but you're absolutely Everything's around becoming more intelligent around using more automation. And the work that, you know we delivered to our clients and cloud, as you know, is the platform to which all of our clients are moving. So it's all about bringing the intelligence not only into infrastructure, but also into cloud generally. And it's all driven by software, >> right? It's just funny to think where we are in this journey. We talked a little bit before we turn the cameras on and there you made an interesting comment when I said, You know, when did this cloud for the Enterprise start? And you took it back to sass based applications, which, >> you know, you were sitting in the sales force builder. >> That's true. It isn't just the tallest building in here, and everyone all right, everyone's >> had a lot of focus on AWS is rise, etcetera. But the real start was really getting into sass. I mean, I remember We used to do a lot of Siebel deployments for CR M, and we started to pivot to sales, for some were moving from remedy into service. Now I mean, we went through on premise collaboration, email todo 360 5 So So we've actually been at it for quite a while in the particularly the SAS world. And it's only more recently that we started to see that kind of push to the, you know, the public pass, and it's starting to cloud native development. But But this journey started, you know, it was that 78 years ago that we really start to see some scale around it >> and tell me if you agree. I think really, what? The sales forces of the world and the service now is of the world off. 3 65 kind of broke down some of those initial barriers which were all really about security and security. Security secure. It's always too here where now security is actually probably an attribute >> and loud can brink Absolutely. In fact, I'm in those barriers took years to bring down. I still saw clients where they were forcing salesforce tor service. Now to put you know instances on Prime, and I think I think they finally woke up toe. You know, these guys invested ton in their security organizations. You know, there's a little of that needle in the haystack. You know, if you breach a data set, you know what you're getting after. But when you happen to sail sports, it's a lot harder. And so you know. So I think that security problems, I've certainly got away. We still have some compliance, regulatory things, data sovereignty. But I think security and not not that it's all by any means that you know, it's always giving an ongoing problem. But I think they're getting more comfortable with their data being up in the public domain, right? Not public. >> I think it also help them with their progress towards getting cloud native. So, you know, you pick certain applications which were obviously hosted by sales force and other companies, and you did some level of custom development around it. And now I think that's paved the way for more complex applications and different workloads now going into, you know, the public cloud and the private cloud. But that's the next part of the journey, >> right? So Let's back up 1/2 a step cause then, as you said, a bunch of stuff then went into Public Cloud, right? Everyone's putting in AWS and Google. Um, IBM has got a public how there was a lot more. They're not quite so many as there used to be. Um, but then we ran into a whole new home, Those of issues, right, Which is kind of opened up this hybrid cloud. This multi cloud world, which is you just can't put everything into a public clouds there certain attributes that you need to think about and yet from the application point of view, before you decide where you deploy that. So I'm just curious. If you can share now, would you guys do with clients? How should they think about applications? How, after they think about what to deploy where I >> think I'll start in the, You know, Larry has a lot of expertise in this area. I think you know, we have to obviously start from an application centric perspectives. You got to take a look at you know where your applications have to live water. What are some of the data implications on the applications or do you have by way of regulatory and compliance issues? Or do you have to do as faras performance because certain applications have to be in a high performance environment? Certain other applications don't think a lot of these factors will then drive where these applications need to recite. And then what we're seeing in today's world is really accomplish. Complex, um, situation where you have a lot of legacy, but you also have private as well as public cloud. So you approach it from an application perspective. >> Yeah. I mean, if you really take a look at Army, you look at it centers clients, and we were totally focused on up into the market Global 2000 savory. You know, clients typically have application portfolios ranging from 520,000 applications. And really, I mean, if you think about the purpose of cloud or even infrastructure for that, they're there to serve the applications. No one cares if your cloud infrastructure is not performing the absolute. So we start off with an application monetization approach and ultimately looking, you know, you know, with our tech advisory guys coming in, there are intelligent engineering service is to do the cloud native and at mod work our platforms. Guys, who do you know everything from sales forward through ASAP. They should drive a strategy on how those applications going to evolve with its 520,000 and determined hey, and usually using some like the six orders methodology. And I'm I am I going to retire this Am I going to retain it? And I'm gonna replace it with sass. Am I gonna re factor in format? And it's ultimately that strategy that's really gonna dictate a multi in and, you know, hybrid cloud story. So it's based on the applications data, gravity issues where they gonna reside on their requirements around regulatory, the requirements for performance, et cetera. That will then dictate the cloud strategies. I'm you know, not a big fan of going in there and just doing a multi hybrid cloud strategy without a really good up front application portfolio approach, right? How we're gonna modernize that >> it hadn't had a you segment. That's a lot of applications. And you know, how do you know the old thing? How do you know that one by that time, how do you help them pray or size? Where they should be focusing on. Yes, >> it. Typically, what we do is work with our clients to do a full application portfolio analysis, and then we're able to then segment the applications based on, you know, important to the business and some of the factors that both of us mentioned. And once we have that, then we come up with an approach where certain sets of applications have moved to sass certain other applications you moved past. So you know, you're basically doing the re factoring and the modernization, and then certain others, you know, you can just, you know, lift and shift. So it's really a combination off both modernization as well as migration. It's a combination off that, but to do that, you have initially look at the entire set of applications and come up with that approach. >> I'm just curious where within that application assessment, where is cost savings? Where is, uh, this is just old and where is opportunities to innovate faster? Because we know a lot of lot of talk really. Days has cost savings, but what the real advantages is execution speed if you can get it. >> If >> you could go back three or four years and we had there was a lot of CEO discussions around cost savings. I'm not really have seen our clients shift. It costs never goes away, obviously right. But there's a lot greater emphasis now on business agility. You know, howto innovate faster, get, get new capabilities, market faster to change my customer experience. So it's really I t is really trying to step up and, you know, enabled the business toe to compete in the marketplace. So we're seeing a huge shift in emphasis or focus at least starting with, you know, how do I get better business agility outta leverage to cloud and cloud native development to get there upper service levels? Actually, we started seeing increase on Hey, you know, these applications need to work. It's actress, So obviously cost still remains a factor, but we seem much more, you know, much more emphasis on agility, you know, enabling the business on giving the right service levels of right experience to the user. Little customers. Big pivot there, >> Okay. And let's get the definitions out because you know a lot of lot of conversation about public clouds. Easy private clouds, easy but hybrid cloud and multi cloud and confusion about what those are. How do you guys define them? How do you help your customers think about the definition? Yes, >> I think it's a really good point. So what we're starting to see is there were a lot of different definitions out there. But I think as I talk to my clients and our partners, I think we're all starting to come toe. You know, the same kind of definition on multi cloud. It's really about using more than one cloud. But hybrid, I think, is a very important concept because hybrid is really all about the placement off the workload or where your application is going to run on. And then again, it goes to all of these points that we talked about data, gravity and performance and other things. Other factors. But it's really all about where do you place the specific workload >> if you look at that, so if you think about public, I mean obviously gives us the innovation of the public providers. You look at how fast Amazon comes out with new versions of Lambda etcetera, so that's the innovations. There obviously agility. You could spend up environments very quickly which is, you know, one of the big benefits of it. The consumption economic models. So that is the number of drivers that are pushing in the direction of public. You know, on the private side, they're still it's quite a few benefits that don't get talked about as much. Um, so you know, if you look at it performance, you know, if you think the public world, you know, although they're scaling up larger T shirts, et cetera, they're still trying to do that for a large array of applications on the private side, you can really Taylor somethingto very high performance characteristics. Whether it's you know, 30 to 64 terabyte Hana, you can get a much more focused precision environment for business critical workloads like that article, article rack. You know, the Duke clusters everything about fraud analysis. So that's a big part of it. Related to that is the data gravity that Prasad just mentioned. You know, if I've got a 64 terrified Hana database, you know, sitting in my private cloud, it may not be that convenient to go and put get that data shared up in red shift or in Google's tensorflow. So So there's some data gravity out. Networks just aren't there. The Laden sea of moving that stuff around is a big issue. And then a lot of people of investments in their data centers. I mean, the other piece, that's interesting. His legacy, you know, You know, as we start to look at the world a lot, there's a ton of Could still living in, You know, whether it's you, Nick system, that IBM mainframes. There's a lot of business value there, and sometimes the business cases aren't aren't necessarily there toe to replace them. Right. And in world of digital, the decoupling where I can start to use micro service is we're seeing a lot of trends. We worked with one hotel to take the reservation system. You know, Rapid and Micro Service is, um, we then didn't you know, open shift couch base, front end. And now when you go against, you know, when you go and browsing properties, you're looking at rates you actually going into distributed database cash on, you know, in using the latest cloud native technologies that could be dropped every two weeks or every three or four days for my mobile application and It's only when it goes, you know, when the transaction goes back, to reserve the room that it goes back there. So we're seeing a lot of power with digital decoupling, but we still need to take advantage of, you know, we've got these legacy applications. So So the data centers air really were trying to evolve them. And really, just, you know, how do we learn everything from the world of public and struck to bring those saints similar type efficiencies to the to the world of private? And really, what we're saying is this emerging approach where I can start to take advantage of the innovation cycles that land is that you know, the red shifts the azure functions of the public world. But then maybe keep some of my more business critical regulated workloads. You know, that's the other side of the private side, right? I've got G X p compliance. If I've got hip data that I need to worry about GDP are you know, the whole set of regular two requirements Over time, we do anticipate the public guys will get much better and more compliant. In fact, they made great headway already, but they're Still not a number of clients are still, you know, not 100% comfortable from rail client's perspective. >> Gotta meet Teresa Carlson. She'll change him. Who runs that AWS Public Sector is doing amazing things, obviously with big government contracts. But but you raise real inching point later. You almost described what I would say is really a hybrid application in this thing. This hotel example that you use because it's is, you know, kind of break in the application and leveraging micro service is to do things around the core that allowed to take advantage of some this agility and hyper fast development, yet still maintain that core stuff that either doesn't need to move Works fine. Be too expensive. Drea Factor. It's a real different weight. Even think about workloads and applications into breaking those things into bits. >> And we see that pattern all over the place. I'm gonna give you the hotel Example Where but finance, you know, look at financial service. Is retail banking so open banking a lot. All those rito applications are on the mainframe. I'm insurance claims and and you look at it, the business value, replicating a lot of like the regulatory stuff, the locality stuff. It doesn't make sense to write it. There's no rule inherent business values of I can wrap it, expose it and you know the micro service's architecture now. D'oh cloud native front end. That's gonna give me a 360 view a customer, Change the customer experience. You know, I've got a much you know, I can still get that agility. The the innovation cycles by public. Bye bye. Wrapping my legacy environment >> in person, you rated jump in and I'll give you something to react to, Which is which is the single glass right now? How do I How did I manage all this stuff now? Not only do I have distributed infrastructure now, I've got distributed applications and the thing that you just described and everyone wants to be that single pane of glass Everybody wants to be the app that's upon everybody. Screen. How are you seeing people deal with the management complexity of these kind of distributed infrastructures? If you will Yeah, >> I think that that's that's an area that's, ah, actually very topical these days because, you know, you're starting to see more and more workers. Goto private cloud and so you've got a hybrid infrastructure you're starting to see move movement from just using the EMS to, you know, the cantinas and Cuban Edie's. And, you know, we talked about Serval s and so on. So all of our clients are looking for a way, and you have different types of users as well. Yeah, developers. You have data scientists. You have, you know, operators and so on. So they're all looking for that control plane that allows them access and a view toe everything that is out there that is being used in the enterprise. And that's where I think you know, a company like Accenture were able to use the best of breed toe provide that visibility to our clients. >> Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It's becoming, you know, with all the promise of cloud and all the power. And these new architectures is becoming much more dynamic, ephemeral, with containers and kubernetes with service computing that that one application for the hotel, they're actually started, and they've got some actually, now running a native us of their containers and looking at serverless. So you gonna even a single application can span that and one of things we've seen is is first. You know, a lot of our clients used to look at, you know, application management, you know, different from their their infrastructure. And the lines are now getting very blurry. You need to have very tight alignment. You take that single application. You know, if any my public side goes down or my mid tier with my you know, you know, open shipped on VM where it goes down on my back and mainframe goes down. Or the networks that connected to go down the devices that talked it. It's a very well, despite the power, very complex environment. So what we've been doing is first we've been looking at, you know, how do we get better synergy across what we you know, application service is teams that do the application manager an optimization cloud infrastructure, you know, how do we get better alignment that are embedded security, You know, how do you know what are managed to Security Service's and bringing those together? And then what we did was we looked at, you know, we got very aggressive of cloud for a strategy and, you know, how do we manage the world of public. But when looking at the public providers of hyper scale er's and how they hit incredible degrees of automation, we really looked at, said and said, Hey, look, you gotta operate differently in this new world. What can we learn from how the public guys they're doing that? We came up with this concept We call it running different. You know, how do you operate differently in this new multi speed? You know, you know, hot, very hybrid world across public, private demon, legacy environment and started looking say OK, what is it that they do? You know, first they standardize, and that's one of the big challenges you know, going to almost all of our clients in this a sprawl. And you know, whether it's application sprawl, its infrastructure, sprawl and >> my business is so unique. The Larry no business out there has the same process that we have. So we started make you know how to be >> standardized like center hybrid cloud solution apart with HP. Envy em where we, you know, how do we that was an example. So we can get thio because you can't automate unless you standardise. So that was the first thing you know, standardizing service catalog. Standardizing that, um, you know, the next thing is the operating model. They obviously operate differently. So we've been putting a lot of time and energy and what I call a cloud and agile operating model. And also a big part of that is truly you hear a lot about Dev ops right now, but truly putting the security and and operations into Deb set cops of bringing, you know, the development in the operations much tied together. So spending a lot of time looking at that and transforming operations re skilling the people you know, the operators of the future aren't eyes on glass there. Developers, they're writing the data ingestion, the analytic algorithms, you know, to do predictive operations. They're writing the automation script to take work, you know, test work out. Right. And over time, they'll be tuned in the air. Aye, aye. Engines to really optimize the environment and then finally has presided. Looted thio. Is that the platforms that control planes? That doing that? So, you know, we What we've been doing is we've had a significant investments in the eccentric cloud platform, our infrastructure automation platforms and then the application teams with it with our my wizard framework, and we've been starting to bring that together. You know, it's an integrated control plane that can plug into our clients environments to really manage seamlessly, you know, and provide, you know, automation Analytics. Aye, aye. Across APS, cloud infrastructure and even security. Right. And that, you know, that really is a iob is right. I mean, that's delivering on, you know, as the industry starts toe define and really coalesce around, eh? I ops, that's what we use. >> So just so I'm clear that so it's really your layer your software layer kind of management layer that that integrates all these different systems and provides kind of a unified view. Control, I reporting et cetera. Right >> Exactly. Then can plug in and integrate, you know, third party tools. I had to do some strategic function. >> I'm just I'm just >> curious is one of the themes that we here out in the press right now is this is this kind of pull back of public cloud app. Some of them are coming back. Or maybe it was, you know, kind of a rush. Maybe a little bit too aggressively. What are some of the reasons why people are pulling stuff back out of public clouds, that just with the wrong it was just the wrong application? The costs were not what we anticipated to be. We find it, you know, what are some of the reasons that you see after coming back in house? Yeah, >> I think it's >> a variety of factors. I mean, it's certainly cost, I think is one. So as there are multiple private options and you know, we don't talk about this, but the hyper skills themselves are coming out with their own different private options, like Aunt Ours and out pulls and other stack and on. And Ali Baba has obsessed I and so on. So you see a proliferation of that and you see many more options around private cloud. So I think the cost is certainly a factor. The second is I think data gravity is, I think, a very important point because as you're starting to see how different applications have to work together, then that becomes a very important point. The third is just about compliance, and, you know, the regulatory environment. As we look across the globe, you know, even outside the U. S. We look at Europe and other parts of Asia as clients and moving more to the cloud. You know, that becomes an important factor. So as you start to balance these things, I think you have to take a very application centric view. You see some of those some some maps moving back, and and I think that's the part of the hybrid world is that you know, you can have a nap running on the private cloud and then tomorrow you can move this. Since it's been containerized to run on public and it's, you know, it's all managed that look >> e. I mean, cost is a big factor if you actually look at it. Most of our clients, you know, they typically you were big cap ex businesses, and all of a sudden they're using this consumption consumption model. And they weren't really They didn't have a function to go and look at the thousands or millions of lines of it, right? You know, as your statement, exactly think they misjudged, you know, some of the scale on B e e. I mean, that's one of the reasons we started. It's got to be an application lead modernization that really that will dictate that. And I think in many cases, people didn't may not have thought through which application. What data? There The data, gravity data. Gravity's a conversation I'm having just by with every client right now. You know, I've got a 64 terabyte hana, and that's the core. My crown jewels. That data, you know, how do I get that to tensorflow? How'd I get that >> right? But if Andy was >> here, though, Andy would say, we'll send down the snow. The snow came from which virgin snow plows Snowball snowball. Well, they're snowballs. But we've seen the >> hold of a truck killer >> that comes out and he'd say, Take that and stick it in the cloud. Because if you've got that data in a single source right now, you can apply multitude of applications across that thing. So they you know they're pushing. Get that date end in this single source course than to move it, change it, you know you run it. All these micro lines of billing statement take >> the hotel. I mean, their data stolen the mainframe. So if they may want need to expose it? Yeah, they have a database cash, and they move it out. You know, the particulars of data sets get larger, it becomes, you know, the data. Gravity becomes a big issue. Because no matter how much you know, while Moore's law might be might have elongated from 18 to 24 months, the network will always be the bottle, Mac. So ultimately, we're seeing, you know, a CZ. We proliferate more and more data, all data sets get bigger and better than network becomes more of a bottleneck. Conned. That's a lot of times you gotta look at your applications. They have. I've got some legacy database I need to get. Thio. I need this to be approximately somewhere where I don't have, you know, high bandwith o r. Right Or, you know, highlight and see type or so egress costs a pretty big deals. My date is up in the cloud, and I'm gonna get charged for pulling it off. You know that That's been a big issue. >> You know, it's funny, I think, and I think a lot of the issue, obviously complexity building. It's a totally different building model, but I think to a lot of people will put stuff in a public cloud and then operated as if they bought it. And they're running in the data center in this kind of this. Turn it on, turn it off when you need it. Everyone turns. Everyone loves to talk about the example turning it on when you need it. But nobody ever talks about turning it off when you don't. But but the kind of clothes on our conversation I won't talk about a I and applied a I. CoSine is a lot of talk in the market place, but a time machine learning. But as you guys know pride better than anybody, it's the application of a I and specific applications, which really on unlocks the value. And as we're sitting here talking about this complexity, I can't help but think that, you know, applied a I in a management layer like your run differently, set up to actually know when to turn things on, when to turn things off when you moved in but not moved, it's gonna have to be machines running that right cause the data sets and the complexity of these systems is going to be just overwhelming. Yeah, yeah, >> absolutely completely agree with you in fact. Ah, essential. We actually referred to the Seoul area as Applied intelligence. Ah, and that's our guy, right? And, uh, it is absolutely to add more and more automation Move everything Maur toe where it's being run by the machine rather than, you know, having people really working on these things >> yet, e I mean, if you think you hit the nail on the head, we're gonna a eyes e. I mean, given how things getting complex, more ephemeral, you think about kubernetes et cetera. We're gonna have to leverage a humans or not to be able to get, you know, manage this. The environment is important, right? What's interesting way we've used quite effectively for quite some time. But it's good at some stuff, not good at others. So we find it's very good at, like, ticket triage, like ticket triage, chicken routing, et cetera. You know, any time we take over account, we tune our AI ai engines. We have ticket advisers, etcetera. That's what probably got the most, you know, most bang for the buck. We tried in the network space. Less success to start even with, you know, commercial products that were out there. I think where a I ultimately bails us out of this is if you look at the problem. You know, a lot of times we talked about optimizing around cost, but then performance. I mean, and it's they they're somewhat, you know, you gotta weigh him off each other. So you've got a very multi dimensional problem on howto I optimize my workloads, particularly. I gotta kubernetes cluster and something on Amazon, you know, sums running on my private cloud, etcetera. So we're gonna get some very complex environment. And the only way you're gonna be ableto optimize across multi dimensions that cost performance service levels, you know, and then multiple options don't do it public private, You know, what's my network costs etcetera. Isn't a I engine tuning that ai ai engines? So ultimately, I mean, you heard me earlier on the operators. I think you know, they write the analytic albums, they do the automation scripts, but they're the ultimate ones who then tune the aye aye engines that will manage our environment, right. And I think it kubernetes will be interesting because it becomes a link to the control plane optimize workload placement between >> when the best thing to you. Then you have dynamic optimization can. You might be up to my tanks at us right now, but you might be optimizing for output the next day. So exists really a you know, kind of Ah, never ending >> when you got you got to see them >> together with it. And multi dimension optimization is very difficult. So I mean, you know, humans can't get their head around. Machines can, but they need to be trained. >> Well, Prasad, Larry, Lots of great opportunities for for centuries bring that expertise to the table. So thanks for taking a few minutes to walk through some of these things. Our pleasure. Thank you. Raise Prasad is Larry. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. We are high above San Francisco in the Salesforce Tower. Theis Center. Innovation have in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

>> Hey, welcome back. Your body, Jefe Rick here from the Cube were high atop San Francisco in the century innovation hub. It's in the middle of the Salesforce Tower. It's a beautiful facility. They think you had it. The grand opening about six months ago. We're here for the grand opening. Very cool space. I got maker studios. They've got all kinds of crazy stuff going on. But we're here today to talk about Cloud in this continuing evolution about cloud in the enterprise and hybrid cloud and multi cloud in Public Cloud and Private Cloud. And we're really excited to have a couple of guys who really helping customers make this journey, cause it's really tough to do by yourself. CEOs are super busy. There were about security and all kinds of other things, so centers, often a trusted partner. We got two of the leaders from center joining us today's Prasad Sankaran. He's the senior managing director of Intelligent Cloud infrastructure for Center Welcome and Larry Soccer, the global managing director. Intelligent cloud infrastructure offering from central gentlemen. Welcome. I love it. It intelligent cloud. What is an intelligent cloud all about? Got it in your title. It must mean something pretty significant. >> Yeah, I think First of all, thank you for having us, but yeah, absolutely. Everything's around becoming more intelligent around using more automation. And the work that, you know we delivered to our clients and cloud, as you know, is the platform to reach. All of our clients are moving. So it's all about bringing the intelligence not only into infrastructure, but also into cloud generally. And it's all driven by software, >> right? It's just funny to think where we are in this journey. We talked a little bit before we turn the cameras on and there you made an interesting comment when I said, You know, when did this cloud for the Enterprise start? And you took it back to sass based applications, which, >> you know you were sitting in the sales force builder. >> That's true. It isn't just the tallest building in >> everyone's, you know, everyone's got a lot of focus on AWS is rise, etcetera. But the real start was really getting into sass. I mean, I remember we used to do a lot of Siebel deployments for CR M, and we started to pivot to sales, for some were moving from remedy into service now. I mean, we've went through on premise collaboration, email thio 3 65 So So we've actually been at it for quite a while in the particularly the SAS world. And it's only more recently that we started to see that kind of push to the, you know, the public pass, and it's starting to cloud native development. But But this journey started, you know, it was that 78 years ago that we really started. See some scale around it. >> And I think and tell me if you agree, I think really, what? The sales forces of the world and and the service now is of the world office 3 65 kind of broke down some of those initial beers, which are all really about security and security, security, security, Always to hear where now security is actually probably an attributes and loud can brink. >> Absolutely. In fact, I mean, those barriers took years to bring down. I still saw clients where they were forcing salesforce tor service Now to put, you know, instances on prime and I think I think they finally woke up toe. You know, these guys invested ton in their security organizations. You know there's a little of that needle in the haystack. You know, if you breach a data set, you know what you're getting after. But when Europe into sales force, it's a lot harder. And so you know. So I think that security problems have certainly gone away. We still have some compliance, regulatory things, data sovereignty. But I think security and not not that it sold by any means that you know, it's always giving an ongoing problem. But I think they're getting more comfortable with their data being up in the in the public domain, right? Not public. >> And I think it also helped them with their progress towards getting cloud native. So, you know, you pick certain applications which were obviously hosted by sales force and other companies, and you did some level of custom development around it. And now I think that's paved the way for more complex applications and different workloads now going into, you know, the public cloud and the private cloud. But that's the next part of the journey, >> right? So let's back up 1/2 a step, because then, as you said, a bunch of stuff then went into public cloud, right? Everyone's putting in AWS and Google. Um, IBM has got a public how there was a lot more. They're not quite so many as there used to be, Um, but then we ran into a whole new host of issues, right, which is kind of opened up this hybrid cloud. This multi cloud world, which is you just can't put everything into a public clouds. There's certain attributes is that you need to think about and yet from the application point of view before you decide where you deploy that. So I'm just curious. If you can share now, would you guys do with clients? How should they think about applications? How should they think about what to deploy where I think >> I'll start in? The military has a lot of expertise in this area. I think you know, we have to obviously start from an application centric perspective. You go to take a look at you know where your applications have to live water. What are some of the data implications on the applications, or do you have by way of regulatory and compliance issues, or do you have to do as faras performance because certain applications have to be in a high performance environment. Certain other applications don't think a lot of these factors will. Then Dr where these applications need to recite and then what we think in today's world is really accomplish. Complex, um, situation where you have a lot of legacy. But you also have private as well as public cloud. So you approach it from an application perspective. >> Yeah. I mean, if you really take a look at Army, you look at it centers clients, and we were totally focused on up into the market Global 2000 savory. You know how clients typically have application portfolios ranging from 520,000 applications? And really, I mean, if you think about the purpose of cloud or even infrastructure for that, they're there to serve the applications. No one cares if your cloud infrastructure is not performing the absolute. So we start off with an application monetization approach and ultimately looking, you know, you know, with our tech advisory guys coming in, there are intelligent engineering service is to do the cloud native and at mod work our platforms, guys, who do you know everything from sales forward through ASAP. They should drive a strategy on how those applications gonna evolve with its 520,000 and determined hey, and usually using some, like the six orders methodology. And I'm I am I going to retire this Am I going to retain it? And, you know, I'm gonna replace it with sass. Am I gonna re factor in format? And it's ultimately that strategy that's really gonna dictate a multi and, you know, every cloud story. So it's based on the applications data, gravity issues where they gonna reside on their requirements around regulatory, the requirements for performance, etcetera. That will then dictate the cloud strategies. I'm you know, not a big fan of going in there and just doing a multi hybrid cloud strategy without a really good up front application portfolio approach, right? How we gonna modernize that >> it had. And how do you segment? That's a lot of applications. And you know, how do you know the old thing? How do you know that one by that time, how do you help them pray or size where they should be focusing on us? >> So typically what we do is work with our clients to do a full application portfolio analysis, and then we're able to then segment the applications based on, you know, important to the business and some of the factors that both of us mentioned. And once we have that, then we come up with an approach where certain sets of applications he moved to sass certain other applications you move to pass. So you know, you're basically doing the re factoring and the modernization and then certain others you know, you can just, you know, lift and shift. So it's really a combination off both modernization as well as migration. It's a combination off that, but to do that, you have to initially look at the entire set of applications and come up with that approach. >> I'm just curious where within that application assessment, um, where is cost savings? Where is, uh, this is just old. And where is opportunities to innovate faster? Because we know a lot of lot of talk really. Days has cost savings, but what the real advantages is execution speed if you can get it. If >> you could go back through four years and we had there was a lot of CEO discussions around cost savings, I'm not really have seen our clients shift. It costs never goes away, obviously right. But there's a lot greater emphasis now on business agility. You know, howto innovate faster, get getting your capabilities to market faster, to change my customer experience. So So it's really I t is really trying to step up and, you know, enabled the business toe to compete in the marketplace. We're seeing a huge shift in emphasis or focus at least starting with, you know, how'd I get better business agility outta leverage to cloud and cloud native development to get their upper service levels? Actually, we started seeing increase on Hey, you know, these applications need to work. It's actress. So So Obviously, cost still remains a factor, but we seem much more for, you know, much more emphasis on agility, you know, enabling the business on, given the right service levels of right experience to the user, little customers. Big pivot there, >> Okay. And let's get the definitions out because you know a lot of lot of conversation about public clouds, easy private clouds, easy but hybrid cloud and multi cloud and confusion about what those are. How do you guys define him? How do you help your customers think about the definition? Yes, >> I think it's a really good point. So what we're starting to see is there were a lot of different definitions out there. But I think as I talked more clients and our partners, I think we're all starting to, you know, come to ah, you know, the same kind of definition on multi cloud. It's really about using more than one cloud. But hybrid, I think, is a very important concept because hybrid is really all about the placement off the workload or where your application is going to run on. And then again, it goes to all of these points that we talked about data, gravity and performance and other things. Other factors. But it's really all about where do you place the specific look >> if you look at that, so if you think about public, I mean obviously gives us the innovation of the public providers. You look at how fast Amazon comes out with new versions of Lambda etcetera. So that's the innovations there obviously agility. You could spend up environments very quickly, which is, you know, one of the big benefits of it. The consumption, economic models. So that is the number of drivers that are pushing in the direction of public. You know, on the private side, they're still it's quite a few benefits that don't get talked about as much. Um, so you know, if you look at it, um, performance if you think the public world, you know, Although they're scaling up larger T shirts, et cetera, they're still trying to do that for a large array of applications on the private side, you can really Taylor somethingto very high performance characteristics. Whether it's you know, 30 to 64 terabyte Hana, you can get a much more focused precision environment for business. Critical workloads like that article, article rack, the Duke clusters, everything about fraud analysis. So that's a big part of it. Related to that is the data gravity that Prasad just mentioned. You know, if I've got a 64 terabyte Hana database you know, sitting in my private cloud, it may not be that convenient to go and put get that data shared up in red shift or in Google's tensorflow. So So there's some data gravity out. Networks just aren't there. The laden sea of moving that stuff around is a big issue. And then a lot of people of investments in their data centers. I mean, the other piece, that's interesting. His legacy, you know, you know, as we start to look at the world a lot, there's a ton of code still living in, You know, whether it's you, nick system, just IBM mainframes. There's a lot of business value there, and sometimes the business cases aren't aren't necessarily there toe to replace them. Right? And in world of digital, the decoupling where I can start to use micro service is we're seeing a lot of trends. We worked with one hotel to take their reservation system. You know, Rapid and Micro Service is, um, we then didn't you know, open shift couch base, front end. And now, when you go against, you know, when you go and browsing properties, you're looking at rates you actually going into distributed database cash on, you know, in using the latest cloud native technologies that could be dropped every two weeks or everything three or four days for my mobile application. And it's only when it goes, you know, when the transaction goes back, to reserve the room that it goes back there. So we're seeing a lot of power with digital decoupling, But we still need to take advantage of, you know, we've got these legacy applications. So So the data centers air really were trying to evolve them. And really, just, you know, how do we learn everything from the world of public and struck to bring those saints similar type efficiencies to the to the world of private? And really, what we're seeing is this emerging approach where I can start to take advantage of the innovation cycles. The land is that, you know, the red shifts the functions of the public world, but then maybe keep some of my more business critical regulated workloads. You know, that's the other side of the private side, right? I've got G X p compliance. If I've got hip, a data that I need to worry about GDP are there, you know, the whole set of regular two requirements. Now, over time, we do anticipate the public guys will get much better and more compliant. In fact, they made great headway already, but they're still not a number of clients are still, you know, not 100% comfortable from my client's perspective. >> Gotta meet Teresa Carlson. She'll change him, runs that AWS public sector is doing amazing things, obviously with big government contracts. But but you raise real inching point later. You almost described what I would say is really a hybrid application in this in this hotel example that you use because it's is, you know, kind of breaking the application and leveraging micro service is to do things around the core that allowed to take advantage of some this agility and hyper fast development, yet still maintain that core stuff that either doesn't need to move. Works fine, be too expensive. Drea Factor. It's a real different weight. Even think about workloads and applications into breaking those things into bits. >> And we see that pattern all over the place. I'm gonna give you the hotel Example Where? But finance, you know, look at financial service. Is retail banking so open banking a lot. All those rito applications are on the mainframe. I'm insurance claims and and you look at it the business value of replicating a lot of like the regulatory stuff, the locality stuff. It doesn't make sense to write it. There's no rule inherent business values of I can wrap it, expose it and in a micro service's architecture now D'oh cloud native front end. That's gonna give me a 360 view a customer, Change the customer experience. You know, I've got a much you know, I can still get that agility. The innovation cycles by public. Bye bye. Wrapping my legacy environment >> and percent you raided, jump in and I'll give you something to react to, Which is which is the single planet glass right now? How do I How did I manage all this stuff now? Not only do I have distributed infrastructure now, I've got distributed applications in the and the thing that you just described and everyone wants to be that single pane of glass. Everybody wants to be the app that's upon everybody. Screen. How are you seeing people deal with the management complexity of these kind of distributed infrastructures? If you will Yeah, >> I think that that's that's an area that's, ah, actually very topical these days because, you know, you're starting to see more and more workers go to private cloud. And so you've got a hybrid infrastructure you're starting to see move movement from just using the EMS to, you know, cantinas and Cuba needs. And, you know, we talked about Serval s and so on. So all of our clients are looking for a way, and you have different types of users as well. Yeah, developers. You have data scientists. You have, you know, operators and so on. So they're all looking for that control plane that allows them access and a view toe everything that is out there that is being used in the enterprise. And that's where I think you know, a company like Accenture were able to use the best of breed toe provide that visibility to our clients, >> right? Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It's becoming, you know, with all the promises, cloud and all the power. And these new architectures is becoming much more dynamic, ephemeral, with containers and kubernetes with service computing that that that one application for the hotel, they're actually started in. They've got some, actually, now running a native us of their containers and looking at surveillance. So you're gonna even a single application can span that. And one of things we've seen is is first, you know, a lot of our clients used to look at, you know, application management, you know, different from their their infrastructure. And the lines are now getting very blurry. You need to have very tight alignment. You take that single application, if any my public side goes down or my mid tier with my you know, you know, open shipped on VM, where it goes down on my back and mainframe goes down. Or the networks that connected to go down the devices that talk to it. It's a very well. Despite the power, it's a very complex environment. So what we've been doing is first we've been looking at, you know, how do we get better synergy across what we you know, Application Service's teams that do that Application manager, an optimization cloud infrastructure. How do we get better alignment that are embedded security, You know, how do you know what are managed to security service is bringing those together. And then what we did was we looked at, you know, we got very aggressive with cloud for a strategy and, you know, how do we manage the world of public? But when looking at the public providers of hyper scale, er's and how they hit Incredible degrees of automation. We really looked at, said and said, Hey, look, you gotta operate differently in this new world. What can we learn from how the public guys we're doing that We came up with this concept. We call it running different. You know, how do you operate differently in this new multi speed? You know, you know, hot, very hybrid world across public, private demon, legacy, environment, and start a look and say, OK, what is it that they do? You know, first they standardize, and that's one of the big challenges you know, going to almost all of our clients in this a sprawl. And you know, whether it's application sprawl, its infrastructure, sprawl >> and my business is so unique. The Larry no business out there has the same process that way. So >> we started make you know how to be standardized like center hybrid cloud solution important with hp envy And where we how do we that was an example of so we can get to you because you can't automate unless you standardise. So that was the first thing you know, standardizing our service catalog. Standardizing that, um you know, the next thing is the operating model. They obviously operate differently. So we've been putting a lot of time and energy and what I call a cloud and agile operating model. And also a big part of that is truly you hear a lot about Dev ops right now. But truly putting the security and and operations into Deb said cops are bringing, you know, the development in the operations much tied together. So spending a lot of time looking at that and transforming operations re Skilling the people you know, the operators of the future aren't eyes on glass there. Developers, they're writing the data ingestion, the analytic algorithms, you know, to do predictive operations. They're riding the automation script to take work, you know, test work out right. And over time they'll be tuning the aye aye engines to really optimize environment. And then finally, has Prasad alluded to Is that the platforms that control planes? That doing that? So, you know what we've been doing is we've had a significant investments in the eccentric cloud platform, our infrastructure automation platforms, and then the application teams with it with my wizard framework, and we started to bring that together you know, it's an integrated control plane that can plug into our clients environments to really manage seamlessly, you know, and provide. You know, it's automation. Analytics. Aye, aye. Across APS, cloud infrastructure and even security. Right. And that, you know, that really is a I ops, right? I mean, that's delivering on, you know, as the industry starts toe define and really coalesce around, eh? I ops. That's what we you A ups. >> So just so I'm clear that so it's really your layer your software layer kind of management layer that that integrates all these different systems and provides kind of a unified view. Control? Aye, aye. Reporting et cetera. Right? >> Exactly. Then can plug in and integrate, you know, third party tools to do straight functions. >> I'm just I'm just curious is one of the themes that we here out in the press right now is this is this kind of pull back of public cloud app, something we're coming back. Or maybe it was, you know, kind of a rush. Maybe a little bit too aggressively. What are some of the reasons why people are pulling stuff back out of public clouds that just with the wrong. It was just the wrong application. The costs were not what we anticipated to be. We find it, you know, what are some of the reasons that you see after coming back in house? Yeah, I think it's >> a variety of factors. I mean, it's certainly cost, I think is one. So as there are multiple private options and you know, we don't talk about this, but the hyper skills themselves are coming out with their own different private options like an tars and out pulls an actor stack and on. And Ali Baba has obsessed I and so on. So you see a proliferation of that, then you see many more options around around private cloud. So I think the cost is certainly a factor. The second is I think data gravity is, I think, a very important point because as you're starting to see how different applications have to work together, then that becomes a very important point. The third is just about compliance, and, you know, the regulatory environment. As we look across the globe, even outside the U. S. We look at Europe and other parts of Asia as clients and moving more to the cloud. You know that becomes an important factor. So as you start to balance these things, I think you have to take a very application centric view. You see some of those some some maps moving back, and and I think that's the part of the hybrid world is that you know, you can have a nap running on the private cloud and then tomorrow you can move this. Since it's been containerized to run on public and it's, you know, it's all managed. That left >> E. I mean, cost is a big factor if you actually look at it. Most of our clients, you know, they typically you were a big cap ex businesses, and all of a sudden they're using this consumption, you know, consumption model. And they went, really, they didn't have a function to go and look at be thousands or millions of lines of it, right? You know, as your statement Exactly. I think they misjudged, you know, some of the scale on Do you know e? I mean, that's one of the reasons we started. It's got to be an application led, you know, modernization, that really that will dictate that. And I think In many cases, people didn't. May not have thought Through which application. What data? There The data, gravity data. Gravity's a conversation I'm having just by with every client right now. And if I've got a 64 terabyte Hana and that's the core, my crown jewels that data, you know, how do I get that to tensorflow? How'd I get that? >> Right? But if Andy was here, though, and he would say we'll send down the stove, the snow came from which virgin snow plows? Snowball Snowball. Well, they're snowballs. But I have seen the whole truck killer that comes out and he'd say, Take that and stick it in the cloud. Because if you've got that data in a single source right now, you can apply multitude of applications across that thing. So they, you know, they're pushing. Get that date end in this single source. Of course. Then to move it, change it. You know, you run into all these micro lines of billing statement, take >> the hotel. I mean, their data stolen the mainframe, so if they anyone need to expose it, Yeah, they have a database cash, and they move it out, You know, particulars of data sets get larger, it becomes, you know, the data. Gravity becomes a big issue because no matter how much you know, while Moore's Law might be might have elongated from 18 to 24 months, the network will always be the bottle Mac. So ultimately, we're seeing, you know, a CZ. We proliferate more and more data, all data sets get bigger and better. The network becomes more of a bottleneck. And that's a It's a lot of times you gotta look at your applications. They have. I've got some legacy database I need to get Thio. I need this to be approximately somewhere where I don't have, you know, high bandwith. Oh, all right. Or, you know, highlight and see type. Also, egress costs a pretty big deals. My date is up in the cloud, and I'm gonna get charged for pulling it off. You know, that's being a big issue, >> you know, it's funny, I think, and I think a lot of the the issue, obviously complexity building. It's a totally from building model, but I think to a lot of people will put stuff in a public cloud and then operated as if they bought it and they're running in the data center in this kind of this. Turn it on, Turn it off when you need it. Everyone turns. Everyone loves to talk about the example turning it on when you need it. But nobody ever talks about turning it off when you don't. But it kind of close on our conversation. I won't talk about a I and applied a Iot because he has a lot of talk in the market place. But, hey, I'm machine learning. But as you guys know pride better than anybody, it's the application of a I and specific applications, which really on unlocks the value. And as we're sitting here talking about this complexity, I can't help but think that, you know, applied a I in a management layer like your run differently, set up to actually know when to turn things on, when to turn things off when you moved in but not moved, it's gonna have to be machines running that right cause the data sets and the complexity of these systems is going to be just overwhelming. Yeah, yeah, >> absolutely. Completely agree with you. In fact, attack sensual. We actually refer to this whole area as applied intelligence on That's our guy, right? And it is absolutely to add more and more automation move everything Maur toe where it's being run by the machine rather than you know, having people really working on these things >> yet, e I mean, if you think you hit the nail on the head, we're gonna a eyes e. I mean, given how things getting complex, more ephemeral, you think about kubernetes et cetera. We're gonna have to leverage a humans or not to be able to get, you know, manage this. The environments comported right. What's interesting way we've used quite effectively for quite some time. But it's good at some stuff, not good at others. So we find it's very good at, like, ticket triage, like ticket triage, chicken rounding et cetera. You know, any time we take over account, we tune our AI ai engines. We have ticket advisers, etcetera. That's what probably got the most, you know, most bang for the buck. We tried in the network space, less success to start even with, you know, commercial products that were out there. I think where a I ultimately bails us out of this is if you look at the problem. You know, a lot of times we talked about optimizing around cost, but then performance. I mean, and it's they they're somewhat, you know, you gotta weigh him off each other. So you've got a very multi dimensional problem on howto I optimize my workloads, particularly. I gotta kubernetes cluster and something on Amazon, you know, sums running on my private cloud, etcetera. So we're gonna get some very complex environment. And the only way you're gonna be ableto optimize across multi dimensions that cost performance service levels, you know, And then multiple options don't do it public private, You know, what's my network costs etcetera. Isn't a I engine tuning that ai ai engines? So ultimately, I mean, you heard me earlier on the operators. I think you know, they write the analytic albums, they do the automation scripts, but they're the ultimate one too. Then tune the aye aye engines that will manage our environment. And I think it kubernetes will be interesting because it becomes a link to the control plane optimize workload placement. You know, between >> when the best thing to you, then you have dynamic optimization. Could you might be optimizing eggs at us right now. But you might be optimizing for output the next day. So exists really a you know, kind of Ah, never ending when you got me. They got to see them >> together with you and multi dimension. Optimization is very difficult. So I mean, you know, humans can't get their head around. Machines can, but they need to be trained. >> Well, Prasad, Larry, Lots of great opportunities for for centuries bring that expertise to the tables. So thanks for taking a few minutes to walk through some of these things. Our pleasure. Thank you, Grace. Besides Larry, I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. We are high above San Francisco in the Salesforce Tower, Theis Center, Innovation hub in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Hey, welcome back. Your body, Jefe Rick here from the Cube were high atop San Francisco in the century innovation hub. It's in the middle of the Salesforce Tower. It's a beautiful facility. They think you had it. The grand opening about six months ago. We're here for the grand opening. Very cool space. I got maker studios. They've got all kinds of crazy stuff going on. But we're here today to talk about Cloud in this continuing evolution about cloud in the enterprise and hybrid cloud and multi cloud in Public Cloud and Private Cloud. And we're really excited to have a couple of guys who really helping customers make this journey, cause it's really tough to do by yourself. CEOs are super busy. There were about security and all kinds of other things, so centers, often a trusted partner. We got two of the leaders from center joining us today's Prasad Sankaran. He's the senior managing director of Intelligent Cloud infrastructure for Center Welcome and Larry Soccer, the global managing director. Intelligent cloud infrastructure offering from central gentlemen. Welcome. I love it. It intelligent cloud. What is an intelligent cloud all about? Got it in your title. It must mean something pretty significant. >> Yeah, I think First of all, thank you for having us, but yeah, absolutely. Everything's around becoming more intelligent around using more automation. And the work that, you know we delivered to our clients and cloud, as you know, is the platform to reach. All of our clients are moving. So it's all about bringing the intelligence not only into infrastructure, but also into cloud generally. And it's all driven by software, >> right? It's just funny to think where we are in this journey. We talked a little bit before we turn the cameras on and there you made an interesting comment when I said, You know, when did this cloud for the Enterprise start? And you took it back to sass based applications, which, >> you know you were sitting in the sales force builder. >> That's true. It isn't just the tallest building in >> everyone's, you know, everyone's got a lot of focus on AWS is rise, etcetera. But the real start was really getting into sass. I mean, I remember we used to do a lot of Siebel deployments for CR M, and we started to pivot to sales, for some were moving from remedy into service now. I mean, we've went through on premise collaboration, email thio 3 65 So So we've actually been at it for quite a while in the particularly the SAS world. And it's only more recently that we started to see that kind of push to the, you know, the public pass, and it's starting to cloud native development. But But this journey started, you know, it was that 78 years ago that we really started. See some scale around it. >> And I think and tell me if you agree, I think really, what? The sales forces of the world and and the service now is of the world office 3 65 kind of broke down some of those initial beers, which are all really about security and security, security, security, Always to hear where now security is actually probably an attributes and loud can brink. >> Absolutely. In fact, I mean, those barriers took years to bring down. I still saw clients where they were forcing salesforce tor service Now to put, you know, instances on prime and I think I think they finally woke up toe. You know, these guys invested ton in their security organizations. You know there's a little of that needle in the haystack. You know, if you breach a data set, you know what you're getting after. But when Europe into sales force, it's a lot harder. And so you know. So I think that security problems have certainly gone away. We still have some compliance, regulatory things, data sovereignty. But I think security and not not that it sold by any means that you know, it's always giving an ongoing problem. But I think they're getting more comfortable with their data being up in the in the public domain, right? Not public. >> And I think it also helped them with their progress towards getting cloud native. So, you know, you pick certain applications which were obviously hosted by sales force and other companies, and you did some level of custom development around it. And now I think that's paved the way for more complex applications and different workloads now going into, you know, the public cloud and the private cloud. But that's the next part of the journey, >> right? So let's back up 1/2 a step, because then, as you said, a bunch of stuff then went into public cloud, right? Everyone's putting in AWS and Google. Um, IBM has got a public how there was a lot more. They're not quite so many as there used to be, Um, but then we ran into a whole new host of issues, right, which is kind of opened up this hybrid cloud. This multi cloud world, which is you just can't put everything into a public clouds. There's certain attributes is that you need to think about and yet from the application point of view before you decide where you deploy that. So I'm just curious. If you can share now, would you guys do with clients? How should they think about applications? How should they think about what to deploy where I >> think I'll start in? The military has a lot of expertise in this area. I think you know, we have to obviously start from an application centric perspective. You go to take a look at you know where your applications have to live water. What are some of the data implications on the applications, or do you have by way of regulatory and compliance issues, or do you have to do as faras performance because certain applications have to be in a high performance environment. Certain other applications don't think a lot of these factors will. Then Dr where these applications need to recite and then what we think in today's world is really accomplish. Complex, um, situation where you have a lot of legacy. But you also have private as well as public cloud. So you approach it from an application perspective. >> Yeah. I mean, if you really take a look at Army, you look at it centers clients, and we were totally focused on up into the market Global 2000 savory. You know how clients typically have application portfolios ranging from 520,000 applications? And really, I mean, if you think about the purpose of cloud or even infrastructure for that, they're there to serve the applications. No one cares if your cloud infrastructure is not performing the absolute. So we start off with an application monetization approach and ultimately looking, you know, you know, with our tech advisory guys coming in, there are intelligent engineering service is to do the cloud native and at mod work our platforms, guys, who do you know everything from sales forward through ASAP. They should drive a strategy on how those applications gonna evolve with its 520,000 and determined hey, and usually using some, like the six orders methodology. And I'm I am I going to retire this Am I going to retain it? And, you know, I'm gonna replace it with sass. Am I gonna re factor in format? And it's ultimately that strategy that's really gonna dictate a multi and, you know, every cloud story. So it's based on the applications data, gravity issues where they gonna reside on their requirements around regulatory, the requirements for performance, etcetera. That will then dictate the cloud strategies. I'm you know, not a big fan of going in there and just doing a multi hybrid cloud strategy without a really good up front application portfolio approach, right? How we gonna modernize that >> it had. And how do you segment? That's a lot of applications. And you know, how do you know the old thing? How do you know that one by that time, how do you help them pray or size where they should be focusing on us? >> So typically what we do is work with our clients to do a full application portfolio analysis, and then we're able to then segment the applications based on, you know, important to the business and some of the factors that both of us mentioned. And once we have that, then we come up with an approach where certain sets of applications he moved to sass certain other applications you move to pass. So you know, you're basically doing the re factoring and the modernization and then certain others you know, you can just, you know, lift and shift. So it's really a combination off both modernization as well as migration. It's a combination off that, but to do that, you have to initially look at the entire set of applications and come up with that approach. >> I'm just curious where within that application assessment, um, where is cost savings? Where is, uh, this is just old. And where is opportunities to innovate faster? Because we know a lot of lot of talk really. Days has cost savings, but what the real advantages is execution speed if you can get it. If >> you could go back through four years and we had there was a lot of CEO discussions around cost savings, I'm not really have seen our clients shift. It costs never goes away, obviously right. But there's a lot greater emphasis now on business agility. You know, howto innovate faster, get getting your capabilities to market faster, to change my customer experience. So So it's really I t is really trying to step up and, you know, enabled the business toe to compete in the marketplace. We're seeing a huge shift in emphasis or focus at least starting with, you know, how'd I get better business agility outta leverage to cloud and cloud native development to get their upper service levels? Actually, we started seeing increase on Hey, you know, these applications need to work. It's actress. So So Obviously, cost still remains a factor, but we seem much more for, you know, much more emphasis on agility, you know, enabling the business on, given the right service levels of right experience to the user, little customers. Big pivot there, >> Okay. And let's get the definitions out because you know a lot of lot of conversation about public clouds, easy private clouds, easy but hybrid cloud and multi cloud and confusion about what those are. How do you guys define him? How do you help your customers think about the definition? Yes, >> I think it's a really good point. So what we're starting to see is there were a lot of different definitions out there. But I think as I talked more clients and our partners, I think we're all starting to, you know, come to ah, you know, the same kind of definition on multi cloud. It's really about using more than one cloud. But hybrid, I think, is a very important concept because hybrid is really all about the placement off the workload or where your application is going to run on. And then again, it goes to all of these points that we talked about data, gravity and performance and other things. Other factors. But it's really all about where do you place the specific look >> if you look at that, so if you think about public, I mean obviously gives us the innovation of the public providers. You look at how fast Amazon comes out with new versions of Lambda etcetera. So that's the innovations there obviously agility. You could spend up environments very quickly, which is, you know, one of the big benefits of it. The consumption, economic models. So that is the number of drivers that are pushing in the direction of public. You know, on the private side, they're still it's quite a few benefits that don't get talked about as much. Um, so you know, if you look at it, um, performance if you think the public world, you know, Although they're scaling up larger T shirts, et cetera, they're still trying to do that for a large array of applications on the private side, you can really Taylor somethingto very high performance characteristics. Whether it's you know, 30 to 64 terabyte Hana, you can get a much more focused precision environment for business. Critical workloads like that article, article rack, the Duke clusters, everything about fraud analysis. So that's a big part of it. Related to that is the data gravity that Prasad just mentioned. You know, if I've got a 64 terabyte Hana database you know, sitting in my private cloud, it may not be that convenient to go and put get that data shared up in red shift or in Google's tensorflow. So So there's some data gravity out. Networks just aren't there. The laden sea of moving that stuff around is a big issue. And then a lot of people of investments in their data centers. I mean, the other piece, that's interesting. His legacy, you know, you know, as we start to look at the world a lot, there's a ton of code still living in, You know, whether it's you, nick system, just IBM mainframes. There's a lot of business value there, and sometimes the business cases aren't aren't necessarily there toe to replace them. Right? And in world of digital, the decoupling where I can start to use micro service is we're seeing a lot of trends. We worked with one hotel to take their reservation system. You know, Rapid and Micro Service is, um, we then didn't you know, open shift couch base, front end. And now, when you go against, you know, when you go and browsing properties, you're looking at rates you actually going into distributed database cash on, you know, in using the latest cloud native technologies that could be dropped every two weeks or everything three or four days for my mobile application. And it's only when it goes, you know, when the transaction goes back, to reserve the room that it goes back there. So we're seeing a lot of power with digital decoupling, But we still need to take advantage of, you know, we've got these legacy applications. So So the data centers air really were trying to evolve them. And really, just, you know, how do we learn everything from the world of public and struck to bring those saints similar type efficiencies to the to the world of private? And really, what we're seeing is this emerging approach where I can start to take advantage of the innovation cycles. The land is that, you know, the red shifts the functions of the public world, but then maybe keep some of my more business critical regulated workloads. You know, that's the other side of the private side, right? I've got G X p compliance. If I've got hip, a data that I need to worry about GDP are there, you know, the whole set of regular two requirements. Now, over time, we do anticipate the public guys will get much better and more compliant. In fact, they made great headway already, but they're still not a number of clients are still, you know, not 100% comfortable from my client's perspective. >> Gotta meet Teresa Carlson. She'll change him, runs that AWS public sector is doing amazing things, obviously with big government contracts. But but you raise real inching point later. You almost described what I would say is really a hybrid application in this in this hotel example that you use because it's is, you know, kind of breaking the application and leveraging micro service is to do things around the core that allowed to take advantage of some this agility and hyper fast development, yet still maintain that core stuff that either doesn't need to move. Works fine, be too expensive. Drea Factor. It's a real different weight. Even think about workloads and applications into breaking those things into bits. >> And we see that pattern all over the place. I'm gonna give you the hotel Example Where? But finance, you know, look at financial service. Is retail banking so open banking a lot. All those rito applications are on the mainframe. I'm insurance claims and and you look at it the business value of replicating a lot of like the regulatory stuff, the locality stuff. It doesn't make sense to write it. There's no rule inherent business values of I can wrap it, expose it and in a micro service's architecture now D'oh cloud native front end. That's gonna give me a 360 view a customer, Change the customer experience. You know, I've got a much you know, I can still get that agility. The innovation cycles by public. Bye bye. Wrapping my legacy environment >> and percent you raided, jump in and I'll give you something to react to, Which is which is the single planet glass right now? How do I How did I manage all this stuff now? Not only do I have distributed infrastructure now, I've got distributed applications in the and the thing that you just described and everyone wants to be that single pane of glass. Everybody wants to be the app that's upon everybody. Screen. How are you seeing people deal with the management complexity of these kind of distributed infrastructures? If you >> will Yeah, I think that that's that's an area that's, ah, actually very topical these days because, you know, you're starting to see more and more workers go to private cloud. And so you've got a hybrid infrastructure you're starting to see move movement from just using the EMS to, you know, cantinas and Cuba needs. And, you know, we talked about Serval s and so on. So all of our clients are looking for a way, and you have different types of users as well. Yeah, developers. You have data scientists. You have, you know, operators and so on. So they're all looking for that control plane that allows them access and a view toe everything that is out there that is being used in the enterprise. And that's where I think you know, a company like Accenture were able to use the best of breed toe provide that visibility to our clients, >> right? Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It's becoming, you know, with all the promises, cloud and all the power. And these new architectures is becoming much more dynamic, ephemeral, with containers and kubernetes with service computing that that that one application for the hotel, they're actually started in. They've got some, actually, now running a native us of their containers and looking at surveillance. So you're gonna even a single application can span that. And one of things we've seen is is first, you know, a lot of our clients used to look at, you know, application management, you know, different from their their infrastructure. And the lines are now getting very blurry. You need to have very tight alignment. You take that single application, if any my public side goes down or my mid tier with my you know, you know, open shipped on VM, where it goes down on my back and mainframe goes down. Or the networks that connected to go down the devices that talk to it. It's a very well. Despite the power, it's a very complex environment. So what we've been doing is first we've been looking at, you know, how do we get better synergy across what we you know, Application Service's teams that do that Application manager, an optimization cloud infrastructure. How do we get better alignment that are embedded security, You know, how do you know what are managed to security service is bringing those together. And then what we did was we looked at, you know, we got very aggressive with cloud for a strategy and, you know, how do we manage the world of public? But when looking at the public providers of hyper scale, er's and how they hit Incredible degrees of automation. We really looked at, said and said, Hey, look, you gotta operate differently in this new world. What can we learn from how the public guys we're doing that We came up with this concept. We call it running different. You know, how do you operate differently in this new multi speed? You know, you know, hot, very hybrid world across public, private demon, legacy, environment, and start a look and say, OK, what is it that they do? You know, first they standardize, and that's one of the big challenges you know, going to almost all of our clients in this a sprawl. And you know, whether it's application sprawl, its infrastructure, sprawl >> and my business is so unique. The Larry no business out there has the same process that way. So >> we started make you know how to be standardized like center hybrid cloud solution important with hp envy And where we how do we that was an example of so we can get to you because you can't automate unless you standardise. So that was the first thing you know, standardizing our service catalog. Standardizing that, um you know, the next thing is the operating model. They obviously operate differently. So we've been putting a lot of time and energy and what I call a cloud and agile operating model. And also a big part of that is truly you hear a lot about Dev ops right now. But truly putting the security and and operations into Deb said cops are bringing, you know, the development in the operations much tied together. So spending a lot of time looking at that and transforming operations re Skilling the people you know, the operators of the future aren't eyes on glass there. Developers, they're writing the data ingestion, the analytic algorithms, you know, to do predictive operations. They're riding the automation script to take work, you know, test work out right. And over time they'll be tuning the aye aye engines to really optimize environment. And then finally, has Prasad alluded to Is that the platforms that control planes? That doing that? So, you know what we've been doing is we've had a significant investments in the eccentric cloud platform, our infrastructure automation platforms, and then the application teams with it with my wizard framework, and we started to bring that together you know, it's an integrated control plane that can plug into our clients environments to really manage seamlessly, you know, and provide. You know, it's automation. Analytics. Aye, aye. Across APS, cloud infrastructure and even security. Right. And that, you know, that really is a I ops, right? I mean, that's delivering on, you know, as the industry starts toe define and really coalesce around, eh? I ops. That's what we you A ups. >> So just so I'm clear that so it's really your layer your software layer kind of management layer that that integrates all these different systems and provides kind of a unified view. Control? Aye, aye. Reporting et cetera. Right? >> Exactly. Then can plug in and integrate, you know, third party tools to do straight functions. >> I'm just I'm just curious is one of the themes that we here out in the press right now is this is this kind of pull back of public cloud app, something we're coming back. Or maybe it was, you know, kind of a rush. Maybe a little bit too aggressively. What are some of the reasons why people are pulling stuff back out of public clouds that just with the wrong. It was just the wrong application. The costs were not what we anticipated to be. We find it, you know, what are some of the reasons that you see after coming back in house? Yeah, I think it's >> a variety of factors. I mean, it's certainly cost, I think is one. So as there are multiple private options and you know, we don't talk about this, but the hyper skills themselves are coming out with their own different private options like an tars and out pulls an actor stack and on. And Ali Baba has obsessed I and so on. So you see a proliferation of that, then you see many more options around around private cloud. So I think the cost is certainly a factor. The second is I think data gravity is, I think, a very important point because as you're starting to see how different applications have to work together, then that becomes a very important point. The third is just about compliance, and, you know, the regulatory environment. As we look across the globe, even outside the U. S. We look at Europe and other parts of Asia as clients and moving more to the cloud. You know that becomes an important factor. So as you start to balance these things, I think you have to take a very application centric view. You see some of those some some maps moving back, and and I think that's the part of the hybrid world is that you know, you can have a nap running on the private cloud and then tomorrow you can move this. Since it's been containerized to run on public and it's, you know, it's all managed. That >> left E. I mean, cost is a big factor if you actually look at it. Most of our clients, you know, they typically you were a big cap ex businesses, and all of a sudden they're using this consumption, you know, consumption model. And they went, really, they didn't have a function to go and look at be thousands or millions of lines of it, right? You know, as your statement Exactly. I think they misjudged, you know, some of the scale on Do you know e? I mean, that's one of the reasons we started. It's got to be an application led, you know, modernization, that really that will dictate that. And I think In many cases, people didn't. May not have thought Through which application. What data? There The data, gravity data. Gravity's a conversation I'm having just by with every client right now. And if I've got a 64 terabyte Hana and that's the core, my crown jewels that data, you know, how do I get that to tensorflow? How'd I get that? >> Right? But if Andy was here, though, and he would say we'll send down the stove, the snow came from which virgin snow plows? Snowball Snowball. Well, they're snowballs. But I have seen the whole truck killer that comes out and he'd say, Take that and stick it in the cloud. Because if you've got that data in a single source right now, you can apply multitude of applications across that thing. So they, you know, they're pushing. Get that date end in this single source. Of course. Then to move it, change it. You know, you run into all these micro lines of billing statement, take >> the hotel. I mean, their data stolen the mainframe, so if they anyone need to expose it, Yeah, they have a database cash, and they move it out, You know, particulars of data sets get larger, it becomes, you know, the data. Gravity becomes a big issue because no matter how much you know, while Moore's Law might be might have elongated from 18 to 24 months, the network will always be the bottle Mac. So ultimately, we're seeing, you know, a CZ. We proliferate more and more data, all data sets get bigger and better. The network becomes more of a bottleneck. And that's a It's a lot of times you gotta look at your applications. They have. I've got some legacy database I need to get Thio. I need this to be approximately somewhere where I don't have, you know, high bandwith. Oh, all right. Or, you know, highlight and see type. Also, egress costs a pretty big deals. My date is up in the cloud, and I'm gonna get charged for pulling it off. You know, that's being a big issue, >> you know, it's funny, I think, and I think a lot of the the issue, obviously complexity building. It's a totally from building model, but I think to a lot of people will put stuff in a public cloud and then operated as if they bought it and they're running in the data center in this kind of this. Turn it on, Turn it off when you need it. Everyone turns. Everyone loves to talk about the example turning it on when you need it. But nobody ever talks about turning it off when you don't. But it kind of close on our conversation. I won't talk about a I and applied a Iot because he has a lot of talk in the market place. But, hey, I'm machine learning. But as you guys know pride better than anybody, it's the application of a I and specific applications, which really on unlocks the value. And as we're sitting here talking about this complexity, I can't help but think that, you know, applied a I in a management layer like your run differently, set up to actually know when to turn things on, when to turn things off when you moved in but not moved, it's gonna have to be machines running that right cause the data sets and the complexity of these systems is going to be just overwhelming. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Completely agree with you. In fact, attack sensual. We actually refer to this whole area as applied intelligence on That's our guy, right? And it is absolutely to add more and more automation move everything Maur toe where it's being run by the machine rather than you know, having people really working on these things >> yet, e I mean, if you think you hit the nail on the head, we're gonna a eyes e. I mean, given how things getting complex, more ephemeral, you think about kubernetes et cetera. We're gonna have to leverage a humans or not to be able to get, you know, manage this. The environments comported right. What's interesting way we've used quite effectively for quite some time. But it's good at some stuff, not good at others. So we find it's very good at, like, ticket triage, like ticket triage, chicken rounding et cetera. You know, any time we take over account, we tune our AI ai engines. We have ticket advisers, etcetera. That's what probably got the most, you know, most bang for the buck. We tried in the network space, less success to start even with, you know, commercial products that were out there. I think where a I ultimately bails us out of this is if you look at the problem. You know, a lot of times we talked about optimizing around cost, but then performance. I mean, and it's they they're somewhat, you know, you gotta weigh him off each other. So you've got a very multi dimensional problem on howto I optimize my workloads, particularly. I gotta kubernetes cluster and something on Amazon, you know, sums running on my private cloud, etcetera. So we're gonna get some very complex environment. And the only way you're gonna be ableto optimize across multi dimensions that cost performance service levels, you know, And then multiple options don't do it public private, You know, what's my network costs etcetera. Isn't a I engine tuning that ai ai engines? So ultimately, I mean, you heard me earlier on the operators. I think you know, they write the analytic albums, they do the automation scripts, but they're the ultimate one too. Then tune the aye aye engines that will manage our environment. And I think it kubernetes will be interesting because it becomes a link to the control plane optimize workload placement. You know, between >> when the best thing to you, then you have dynamic optimization. Could you might be optimizing eggs at us right now. But you might be optimizing for output the next day. So exists really a you know, kind of Ah, never ending when you got me. They got to see them >> together with you and multi dimension. Optimization is very difficult. So I mean, you know, humans can't get their head around. Machines can, but they need to be trained. >> Well, Prasad, Larry, Lots of great opportunities for for centuries bring that expertise to the tables. So thanks for taking a few minutes to walk through some of these things. Our pleasure. Thank you, Grace. Besides Larry, I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. We are high above San Francisco in the Salesforce Tower, Theis Center, Innovation hub in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Announcer: Live from New York City It's TheCube. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> It got out of control, they were testing it. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in New York City for CyberConnect 2017. This is Cube's coverage is presented by Centrify. It's an industry event, bringing all the leaders of industry and government together around all the great opportunities to solve the crisis of our generation. That's cyber security. We have Cricket Liu. Chief DNS architect and senior fellow at Infoblox. Cricket, great to see you again. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, nice to be back John. >> So we're live here and really this is the first inaugural event of CyberConnect. Bringing government and industry together. We saw the retired general on stage talking about some of the history, but also the fluid nature. We saw Jim from Aetna, talking about how unconventional tactics and talking about domains and how he was handling email. That's a DNS problem. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You're the DNS guru. DNS has become a role in this. What's going on here around DNS? Why is it important to CyberConnect? >> Well, I'll be talking tomorrow about the first anniversary, well, a little bit later than the first anniversary of the big DDoS attack on Dyn. The DNS hosting provider up in Manchester, New Hampshire. And trying to determine if we've actually learned anything, have we improved our DNS infrastructure in any way in the ensuing year plus? Are we doing anything from the standards, standpoint on protecting DNS infrastructure. Those sorts of things. >> And certainly one of the highlight examples was mobile users are masked by the DNS on, say, email for example. Jim was pointing that out. I got to ask you, because we heard things like sink-holing addresses, hackers create domain names in the first 48 hours to launch attacks. So there's all kinds of tactical things that are being involved with, lets say, domain names for instance. >> Cricket: Yeah, yeah. >> That's part of the critical infrastructure. So, the question is how, in DDoS attacks, denial-of-service attacks, are coming in in the tens of thousands per day? >> Yeah, well that issue that you talked about, in particular the idea that the bad guys register brand new domain names, domain names that initially have no negative reputation associated with them, my friend Paul Vixie and his new company Farsight Security have been working on that. They have what is called a -- >> John: What's the name of the company again? >> Farsight Security. >> Farsight? >> And they have what's called a Passive DNS Database. Which is a database basically of DNS telemetry that is accumulated from big recursive DNS servers around the internet. So they know when a brand new domain name pops up, somewhere on the internet because someone has to resolve it. And they pump all of these brand new domain names into what's called a response policy zone feed. And you can get for example different thresh holds. I want to see the brand new domain names created over the last 30 minutes or seen over the last 30 minutes. And if you block resolution of those brand new domain names, it turns out you block a tremendous amount of really malicious activity. And then after say, 30 minutes if it's a legitimate domain name it falls off the list and you can resolve it. >> So this says your doing DNS signaling as a service for new name registrations because the demand is for software APIs to say "Hey, I want to create some policy around some techniques to sink-hole domain address hacks. Something like that? >> Yeah, basically this goes hand in hand with this new system response policy zone which allows you to implement DNS policy. Something that we've really never before done with DNS servers, which that's actually not quite true. There have been proprietary solutions for it. But response policy zones are an open solution that give you the ability to say "Hey I do want to allow resolution of this domain name, but not this other domain name". And then you can say "Alright, all these brand new domain names, for the first 30 minutes of their existence I don't want-- >> It's like a background check for domain names. >> Yeah, or like a wait list. Okay, you don't get resolved for the first 30 minutes, that gives the sort of traditional, reputational, analyzers, Spamhaus and Serval and people like that a chance to look you over and say "yeah, it's malicious or it's not malicious". >> So serves to be run my Paul Vixie who is the contributor to the DNS protocol-- >> Right, enormous contributor. >> So we should keep an eye on that. Check it out, Paul Vixie. Alright, so DNS's critical infrastructure that we've been talking about, that you and I, love to riff about DNS and the role What's it enabled? Obviously it's ASCII, but I got to ask you, all these Unicode stuff about the emoji and the open source, really it highlight's the Unicode phenomenon. So this is a hacker potential haven. DNS and Unicode distinction. >> It's really interesting from a DNS standpoint, because we went to a lot of effort within the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, some years ago, back when I was more involved in the IETF, some people spent a tremendous amount of effort coming up with a way to use allow people to use Unicode within domain name. So that you could type something into your browser that was in traditional or simplified Chinese or that was in Arabic or was in Hebrew or any number of other scripts. And you could type that in and it would be translated into something that we call puny code, in the DNS community, which is an ASCII equivalent to that. The issue with that though, becomes that there are, we would say glifs, most people I guess would say characters, but there are characters in Unicode that look just like, say Latin alphabet characters. So there's a lowercase 'a' for example, in cyrillic, it's not a lowercase 'a' in the Latin alphabet, it's a cyrillic 'a', but it looks just like an 'a'. So it's possible for people to register names, domain names, that in there Unicode representation, look like for example, PayPal, which of course has two a's in it, and those two a's could be cyrillic a's. >> Not truly the ASCII representation of PayPal which we resolve through the DNS. >> Exactly, so imagine how subtle an attack that would be if you were able to send out a bunch of email, including the links that said www.-- >> Someone's hacked your PayPal account, click here. >> Yeah, exactly. And if you eyeballed it you'd think Well, sure that's www.PayPal.com, but little do you know it's actually not the -- >> So Jim Ruth talked about applying some unconventional methods, because the bad guys don't subscribe to the conventional methods . They don't buy into it. He said that they change up their standards, is what I wrote down, but that was maybe their sort of security footprint. 1.5 times a day, how does that apply to your DNS world, how do you even do that? >> Well, we're beginning to do more and more with analytics DNS. The passive DNS database that I talked about. More and more big security players, including Infoblox are collecting passive DNS data. And you can run interesting analytics on that passive DNS data. And you can, in some cases, automatically detect suspicious or malicious behavior. For example you can say "Hey, look this named IP address mapping is changing really, really rapidly" and that might be an indication of let's say, fast flux. Or you can say "These domain names have really high entropy. We did an engram analysis of the labels of these". The consequence of that we believe that this resolution of these domain names, is actually being used to tunnel data out of an organization or into an organization. So there's some things you can do with these analytical algorithms in order to suss out suspicious and malicious. >> And you're doing that in as close to real time as possible, presumably right? >> Cricket: That's right. >> And so, now everybody's talking about Edge, Edge computing, Edge analytics. How will the Edge effect your ability to keep up? >> Well, the challenge I think with doing analytics on passive DNS is that you have to be able to collect that data from a lot of places. The more places that you have, the more sensors that you have collecting passive DNS data the better. You need to be able to get it out from the Edge. From those local recursive DNS servers that are actually responding to the query's that come from say your smart phone or your laptop or what have you. If you don't have that kind of data, you've only got, say, big ISPs, then you may not detect the compromise of somebody's corporate network, for example. >> I was looking at some stats when I asked the IOT questions, 'cause you're kind of teasing out kind of the edge of the network and with mobile and wearables as the general was pointing out, is that it's going to create more service area, but I just also saw a story, I don't know if it's from Google or wherever, but 80% plus roughly, websites are going to have SSL HTBS that they're resolving through. And there's reports out here that a lot of the anti virus provisions have been failing because of compromised certificates. And to quote someone from Research Park, and we want to get your reaction to this "Our results show", this is from University of Maryland College Park. "Our results show that compromised certificates pose a bigger threat than we previously believed, and is not restricted to advanced threats and digitally signed malware was common in the wild." Well before Stuxnet. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so breaches have been caused by compromising certificates of actual authority. So this brings up the whole SSL was supposed to be solving this, that's just one problem. Now you've got the certificates, well before Stuxnet. So Stuxnet really was kind of going on before Stuxnet. Now you've got the edge of the network. Who has the DNS control for these devices? Is it kind of like failing? Is it crumbling? How do we get that trust back? >> That's a good question. One of the issues that we've had is that at various points, CAs, Certificate Authorities, have been conned into issuing certificates for websites that they shouldn't have. For example, "Hey, generate a cert for me". >> John: The Chinese do it all the time. >> Exactly. I run www. Bank of America .com. They give it to the wrong guy. He installs it. We have I think, something like 1,500 top level certification authorities. Something crazy like that. Dan Komenski had a number in one of his blog posts and it was absolutely ridiculous. The number of different CA's that we trust that are built into the most common browsers, like Chrome and Firefox and things like that. We're actually trying to address some of those issues with DNS, so there are two new resource records being introduced to DNS. One is TLSA. >> John: TLSA? >> Yeah, TLSA. And the other one is called CAA I think, which always makes me think of a California Automotive Association. (laughter) But TLSA is basically a way of publishing data in your own zone that says My cert looks like this. You can say "This is my cert." You can just completely go around the CA. And you can say "This is my cert" and then your DNS sec sign your zone and you're done. Or you can do something short of that and you can say "My cert should look like this "and it should have this CA. "This is my CA. "Don't trust any other one" >> So it's metadata about the cert or the cert itself. >> Exactly, so that way if somebody manages to go get a cert for your website, but they get that cert from some untrustworthy CA. I don't know who that would be. >> John: Or a comprimised-- >> Right, or a compromised CA. No body would trust it. No body who actually looks up the TSLA record because they'll go "Oh, Okay. I can see that Infoblox's cert that their CA is Symantech. And this is not a Symantech signed cert. So I'm not going to believe it". And at the same time this CAA record is designed to be consumed by the CA's themselves, and it's a way of saying, say Infoblox can say "We are a customer of Symantech or whoever" And when somebody goes to the cert and says "Hey, I want to generate a certificate for www.Infoblox.com, they'll look it up and say "Oh, they're a Symantech customer, I'm not going to do that for you". >> So it creates trust. So how does this impact the edge of the network, because the question really is, the question that's on everyone's mind is, does the internet of things create more trust or does it create more vulnerabilities? Everyone knows it's a surface area, but still there are technical solutions when you're talking about, how does this play out in your mind? How does Infoblox see it? How do you see it? What's Paul Vixie working on, does that tie into it? Because out in the hinterlands and the edge of the network and the wild, is it like a DNS server on the device. It could be a sensor? How are they resolving things? What is the protocol for these? >> At least this gives you a greater assurance if you're using TLS to encrypt communication between a client and a web server or some other resource out there on the internet. It at least gives you a better assurance that you really aren't being spoofed. That you're going to the right place. That your communications are secure. So that's all really good. IOT, I think of as slightly orthogonal to that. IOT is still a real challenge. I mean there is so many IOT devices out there. I look at IOT though, and I'll talk about this tomorrow, and actually I've got a live event on Thursday, where I'll talk about it some more with my friend Matt Larson. >> John: Is that going to be here in New York? >> Actually we're going to be broadcasting out of Washington, D.C. >> John: Were you streaming that? >> It is streamed. In fact it's only streamed. >> John: Put a plug in for the URL. >> If you go to www.Infoblox.com I think it's one of the first things that will slide into your view. >> So you're putting it onto your company site. Infoblox.com. You and Matt Larson. Okay, cool. Thursday event, check it out. >> It is somewhat embarrassingly called Cricket Liu Live. >> You're a celebrity. >> It's also Matt Larson Live. >> Both of you guys know what you're talking about. It's great. >> So there's a discussion among certain boards of directors that says, "Look, we're losing the battle, "we're losing the war. "We got to shift more on response "and at least cover our butts. "And get some of our response mechanisms in place." What do you advise those boards? What's the right balance between sort of defense perimeter, core infrastructure, and response. >> Well, I would certainly advocate as a DNS guy, that people instrument their DNS infrastructure to the extent that they can to be able to detect evidence of compromise. And that's a relatively straight forward thing to do. And most organizations haven't gone through the trouble to plumb their DNS infrastructure into their, for example, their sim infrastructure, so they can get query log information, they can use RPZs to flag when a client looks up the domain name of a known command and control server, which is a clear indication of compromise. Those sorts of things. I think that's really important. It's a pretty easy win. I do think at this point that we have to resign ourselves to the idea that we have devices on our network that are infected. That game is lost. There's no more crunchy outer shell security. It just doesn't really work. So you have to have defensive depth as they say. >> Now servs has been around for such a long time. It's been one of those threats that just keeps coming. It's like waves and waves. So it looks like there's some things happening, that's cool. So I got to ask you, CyberConnect is the first real inaugural event that brings industry and some obviously government and tech geeks together, but it's not black hat or ETF. It's not those geeky forums. It's really a business community coming together. What's your take of this event? What's your observations? What are you seeing here? >> Well, I'm really excited to actually get the opportunity to talk to people who are chiefly security people. I think that's kind of a novelty for me, because most of the time I think I speak to people who are chiefly networking people and in particular that little niche of networking people who are interested in DNS. Although truth be told, maybe they're not really interested in DNS, maybe they just put up with me. >> Well the community is really strong. The DNS community has always been organically grown and reliable. >> But I love the idea of talking about DNS security to a security audience. And hopefully some of the folks we get to talk to here, will come away from it thinking oh, wow, so I didn't even realize that my DNS infrastructure could actually be a security tool for me. Could actually be helpful in any way in detecting compromise. >> And what about this final question, 'cause I know we got a time check here. But, operational impact of some of these DNS changes that are coming down from Paul Vixie, you and Matt Larson doing some things together, What's the impact of the customer and they say "okay, DNS will play a role in how I role out my architecture. New solutions for cyber, IOT is right around the corner. What's the impact to them in your mind operationally. >> There certainly is some operational impact, for example if you want to subscribe to RPZ feeds, you've got to become a customer of somebody who provides a commercial RPZ feed or somebody who provides a free RPZ feed. You have to plumb that into your DNS infrastructure. You have to make sure that it continues transferring. You have to plumb that into your sim, so when you get a hit against an RPZ, you're notified about it, your security folks. All that stuff is routine day to day stuff. Nothing out of the ordinary. >> No radical plumbing changes. >> Right, but I think one of the big challenges in so many of the organizations that I go to visit, the security organization and the networking organization are in different silos and they don't necessarily communicate a lot. So maybe the more difficult operational challenge is just making sure that you have that communication. And that the security guys know the DNS guys, the networking guys, and vice versa. And they cooperate to work on problems. >> This seems to be the big collaboration thing that's happening here. That it's more of a community model coming together, rather than security. Cricket Liu here, DNS, Chief Architect of DNS and senior fellow of Infoblox. The legend in the DNS community. Paul Vixie amongst the peers. Really that community holding down the fort I'll see a lot of exploits that they have to watch out for. Thanks for your commentary here at the CyberConnect 2017 inaugural event. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)