>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of HPE. Discover 2022 from the Venetian convention center, formerly the sand convention center in Las Vegas, Dave ante, with John furrier. We're here with Brad parks. Who's the chief product officer at morphia data and Brian Thompson. Who's the vice president of GreenLake cloud product management at Hewlett Packard enterprise gentlemen. Great to see you first time on the queue first time. Wow. I just assumed we've known each other for, so >>We've been around a long time now. I'm happy to be here and thanks for, thanks for making the >>Time. Yeah, you've put a lot of people on the queue, but Morpheus data, when we, you know, we first met, I mean, with your new role here several years ago, tell, give us the update what's Morpheus do, why are you, so why does people, why do people need Morpheus? Think >>People need Morpheus, cuz it is messy, right? Technology promise, you know, simple, better, faster, but it's only gotten more complex, more heterogeneous over the last decade. We are a unified orchestration and automation platform that makes kind of the, the messy labyrinth that is enterprise. It kind of simpler to navigate primary use case. Self-service for developers who wanna push a button, get a database and an abstract deployed into their on-prem or their public cloud without having to wait on it. >>So you've, you've, you've been through the hyper-converged world. You've seen all that hardware come together. The VMware Nutanix of the world's kind of hardware. Now you got this software abstraction where you got operations, you've got AI, you got all kinds of ops AI ops dev ops data ops ops machine, >>You >>Know, they're all there. And so you got developer environments, you got operating environments. It's just getting more complicated at scale. Yep. This is a huge challenge. You guys are tackling this and then by the way, throw in automation in there too. Right? So, so all that's kind of coming together. How does self-service work put all that complication? >>Well, so I was just talking about Robert Christiansen. I know he's probably think he's been on the Q he's on S team and the ven diagram that we see in hundreds of enterprises we talk to is there's a need for central platform engineering at an enterprise to enable developers, to hit a button, get their database, run an I API line, you know, get their app stack deployed. They also wanna do the same thing with Kubernetes, right? Micro clusters deployed, you know, at a service, same thing with Terraform and Ansible. And they're just there aren't enough skilled operators who have moved up that stack. So you have to automate and canonize that knowledge and, and make it easy. >>Brian, one of the sort of pillars of GreenLake is, and as a service is data and we see a change in the way data is data platforms are being architected, data organizations. And one of the things that is a critical principle of sort of what we see as the new data era is self-service infrastructure where the operation of the technical details are an operational detail, not the be all end, all, you have to go beg and get data out. Okay. So you guys are building out, I think, consistent with that principle self-service infrastructure. That's right. So where does Morpheus fit in, in terms of that objective, what's your relationship like and, and help us understand >>That. Yeah. Within GreenLake, specifically think of this as a broad portfolio of different as a service offerings. Part of that key is meeting customers where they are and where they want to be. So we have that array of things which are fully self-service if you will, but serving an it admin type of persona. So it's where as a enterprise, I still have those resources. I want that granular of control all the way through, how do we deliver some of our more advanced cloud services, really trying to serve the end user to your point, how do I empower application owners, developers to, to bring in and, and work with those services? This is key in, in some of those cloud services, we're delivering more of VSC is a key component that we work as we bring to again, provide those interfaces. How do I provide everything from API CLI through a gooey experience that can span across multiple form factors, bring together that more of a homogenous experience? >>What, what options are out there to solve this problem today? I mean, what are the best practices? Is it do it yourself? Is it, you know, a little bit of VMware here, a little bit of, you know, other tooling there, what, what do you see out there in the marketplace? >>I'll give kinda my perspective kind of yeah. Outside the, the tools that we see when we walk into an enterprise, you've got a company that's got a lot of VMware, maybe a little Nutanix, we've got some AWS, they wanna use OpenShift for their clusters. They got Terraform Ansible, and they got service now. And there's a, there's a poor it ops team in the middle, trying to wire all that together. And each of those domains have tried to go up this hill, right. VMware's done with vRealize automation, you know? Yeah. OpenShift will say no where the way, and you use cube vert to >>Do your virtual service now will say the same thing. Right? >>So our goal is, you know, we started in the middle right. Middle out, right. We started unifying that for self-service for developers and finance teams. And we're we're agnostic. We don't have a dog in the fight, right. We don't have a hypervisor business, a hardware business, an ITSM business. We're all about bringing the pieces together. But that said, we work with partners like HP, you have a footprint of thousands of customers who are solving that same problem and need to need to move up stack. So it's been a good win-win. So >>You're not trying to be the cloud operating system per se. I mean, right. The way, the way a VMware wants to be, or you could even argue, well, I guess open, you >>Got, you got the hyperscalers coming down, you got VMware moving up. But again, they all at the end of the day are trying to control their cash cow, right. Their hardcore business. We wanna make them all transparent. So >>Your bet is it's gonna be all of the above. Yeah. That's not gonna change. Right. That's the complexity is, is that right? Or do you think they're gonna consolidate? >>No, I think there's definitely something to that. I also think there's enough. Disparate. Technology's not gonna be one size fits all or one to rule them all. In fact, I think that's part of the examples in the past, like private cloud is we announced yesterday private cloud for enterprise. It's not a new term. People are doing that for quite a while now, but they are typically fairly brittle hand rolled disparate technologies, some poor it team trying to hold it together. So where we can provide that kind of life cycle management in a cloud operating model, remove that complexity and provide that stability. And in that experience across what will be interchangeable parts at times, I think that's really that direction in, >>Yeah. You guys talk about this whole starting in the middle. I like that because there's a skills gap as well. Right. Not only is there for a challenge on it that transforms, there's not enough. People actually know how to manage a Kubernetes cluster spin one up. Yeah. So there's been a rise of managed services. We're seeing come outta the woodwork almost in all areas where it's complex. Yeah. How does that fit into the makeup of as customers, engineer or rearchitect or, or just evolve to edge on premises and public cloud? Yeah. In a cloud operating way, because if I got managed service, do they just plug in, I mean, new orchestrating services, managed services all the above, take us through this dynamic because we're seeing more and more customers saying, just gimme the service. Yeah. >>I, I know manage perspective. This, this kinda goes back to that portfolio of meeting customers where they are. There are some that, that have that expertise in house they're opinionated. They just want a different consumption model. But on the other side of that, it's difficult to attract and retain that type of talent. And if I have limited resources, am I gonna focus on the care and feeding of that underlying infrastructure? Or am I gonna try to up level and focus on things more strategic to the business? So that's where we've certainly been focusing. And I think this type of management capability is what feeds into that. Right? >>Talk about the trust aspect, because if I'm gonna go manage service, it better work. I need to trust it. It's not a zero trust environment. It's actually a trust and verified, but you're seeing the software supply chain is a big discussion point. Developers don't wanna have to get back off their CDC pipeline to go in and manage stuff. So a managed service has to be verified. Yeah. There's a huge trust factor in there. How does what's the status of this now? Is it real? >>I think one of the, one of the pieces we see in terms of trust organizationally, I mean, people in process is always harder than the tech usually. And, and a lot of the trust is just internal. You get, you know, developers don't trust the ops team, right? Security doesn't trust anybody, you know, finance doesn't trust, you know, who's billing them. Part of what we do as a stack is we give each of those stakeholder groups, the ability to get their core needs met without getting each other's way. And from a delivery perspective where we partner with HPE is we are, you know, we're a platform framework, we're a technology provider we're inside, you know, products like the private cloud. We work their GMs team, the manage services team. If they wanna take on more of that operational concern, right. They use us or if the customer wants to manage it themselves. So we we're all about enabling them at the end of the day. And, and HP brings >>And how hard bread is it to unify? UN unification is a great word. I love let's unify everybody. Right. So how, how hard is that? Can you scope that problem statement for us? What does that mean? >>I'll separate it from a technology perspective and then the people process. So a lot of the traditional people that have played in that space that do it yourself, you mention right. Scripting it all together is hard, right? And if you change from cloud a to cloud B, you're set back six months, like why we exist is we wanna very quickly pull the pieces together. We can usually get a POC up and running in about two hours, right? That's a, self-service VMware private cloud, right? That doesn't mean you've solved the organizational inertia. You know, that's, that takes time, weeks, months. And that's where people are like Accenture GreenLake, other SI other channel partners bring that together to, to help make that change happen. >>How mature is the platform? Where are you in terms of determining product market fit? Are you, are you scaling at this point? >>Well, the, the great part about our origin story, right? We got our start as an internal tool set inside a two and a half billion dollar private equity firm that was transforming it at dozens of companies. So we were built for the use case product market fit happened, cuz a bunch of guys needed to get their jobs done. So we've been an outbound since 2015, right? We were top of the stack ranking, you know, all the MQs, all the quadrants, all the analysis. So we think we're their product market fit. The nice thing is customers have actually moved to where we are. Right? Five years ago, cloud management meant cleaning up the lift and shift mess. Now it's automation platform engineering. So it it's a fun time. >>It's it's operational. Yeah. It's they're operationalizing it. >>What's your go to market model. Maybe you could double click on those through >>Partners. So honestly through HP is a big one. We're small, right? We want to be the best unified platform we can be. Our go to market is via technology partners like HPE, right? The other systems integrators, other channel partners globally. So, so yeah. It's >>So then you've got kind of a tiger team overly. Yep. Salesforce is that, that >>Yeah, we've got teams globally. So we've got about 700,000 workloads under management around the world. About 70% of those are OnPrem VMware Nutanix. The rest are up in the public cloud. So we work with partners, solution providers, services, engines to, to help deliver that to >>Customers. What do you make of the 61 billion acquisition of VMware from Broadcom? >>We're, you know, I think your analysis was spot on. It is gonna be a, a war of, you know, what is the, the most profitable to that new Broadcom business and things like vRealize automation, some of these fringe products that are core at a customer use cases, but may not be driving a lot of bottom revenue for VMware, I think are gonna be gonna be on the bubble. And we've seen more interest in the last few weeks from people who just want to hedge their bets. Right. They want to be able to switch from hypervisor a to hypervisor B or cloud a to cloud B without being locked into anyone's stack. And that is, that is why we exist. Mm. >>You wanna comment on that? >>I mean, it's, you know, for HP and from a GreenLake and even just historically, right. It's about customer choice. Mm. We have a strong relationship with VMware. Sure. We have, I don't know how many bajillions of servers out there running VMware that we, we support with. So, you know, it's, it's, it's all just looking at that ecosystem and helping deliver those customer solutions and outcomes is our focus. Yeah. >>Thank >>You. Brian. Talk about the GreenLake success with partners. We're seeing ecosystem is a big part of that and we know the formula for ecosystems create value. What is the pitch that green lakes making to the marketplace right now to attract more folks to build and or integrate into the >>Platform? Yeah. I mean, GreenLake started with a, a vehicle of how do I start to deliver an OPEX model, a consumption model for traditional infrastructure that we've been providing more and more as the services and solutions really have emerged and evolved. It's gone from, how do I just give you kit and a consumption model for it to now looking at embedded solutions with third party ISV software building or wrapping those services around it, really delivering outcomes and solutions you're seeing. And hopefully you'll solve just from announcement more and more of that, where we have kind of turnkey solutions with key partners, how do we bring a marketplace ecosystem together? How do we help enable those kind of full solutions? Because we're not gonna build it all ourselves, right. We wanna make sure that we can deliver those outcomes. >>So marketing is often and should be ahead of the actual product, early days of GreenLake. It was really a, you know, financial model. Sure. Right. Where do, where do you see GreenLake today? How far is it matured? We saw some of the, the announcements yesterday. We saw some demos. Where are we at? >>Yeah. So this actually, I think really the exciting part is you might have heard Antonio refer to as that journey to one each of our different businesses within green or within HPE, they've all been building these cloud services in GreenLake enabled services. But as you saw Alma share the path to the HPE GreenLake cloud platform that really is bringing these services together into a functional platform, right? Common identity, common telemetry services, bringing these together as now, integrable interoperable services. Like you're starting to see that come together and you can really see the Chrome trail of, of where we're going with a very powerful hybrid cloud experience, right? Spanning private public on-prem colo and a, and a full solution set within there. So it that's, that's the exciting part >>For me and Brad Morpheus will be a capability inside of GreenLake that a customer can consume. Do you have to write to GreenLake APIs to enable that? Or is it, is it more just certify that you work inside a GreenLake? What has to get done? I'll say a lot >>Of what they've done is actually written into, into our APIs. Like we've normalized hybrid it. We have a, a database model of every load balance or a cloud endpoint automation tool. So we are, we're all about making it easier to consume it. And the vision that Alma and HP has around GreenLake fits very well with why we exist. So they're able to extract metering data from our, you know, from our API, we know who provisioned what, where how much they spent. So we're a good repository and platform partner for them to, to build on. It's >>Great for that console that you guys have. Yeah. >>You got the, you got the open APIs, you publish those, you guys take advantage of 'em and then sure. Boom. Then you can consume. Got it. All right, guys. Hey, great to see you again, red. Thanks for, for >>Coming on. Thanks. Thanks for having us on >>Our pleasure. Great stuff. Congratulations. Okay. Keep it right there. This is Dave Valante for John furrier. Are you watching the cubes coverage of HPE discover 2022 from Las Vegas? We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the manager risk across the extended attack surface with Armis. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Got the demo. Got here, Bryan Inman sales engineer at Armis. Bryan, thanks for coming on. We're looking forward to the demo. How you doing? >> I'm doing well, John, thanks for having me. >> We heard from Nadir describing Armis' platform, lot of intelligence. It's like a search engine meets data at scale, intelligent platform around laying out the asset map, if you will, the new vulnerability module among other things that really solves CISCO's problems. A lot of great customer testimonials and we got the demo here that you're going to give us. What's the demo about? What are we going to see? >> Well, John, thanks. Great question. And truthfully, I think as Nadir has pointed out what Armis as a baseline is giving you is great visibility into every asset that's communicating within your environment. And from there, what we've done is we've layered on known vulnerabilities associated with not just the device, but also what else is on the device. Is there certain applications running on that device, the versions of those applications, and what are the vulnerabilities known with that? So that's really gives you great visibility in terms of the devices that folks aren't necessarily have visibility into now, unmanaged devices, IoT devices, OT, and critical infrastructure, medical devices things that you're not necessarily able to actively scan or put an agent on. So not only is Armis telling you about these devices but we're also layering on those vulnerabilities all passively and in real time. >> A lot of great feedback we've heard and I've talked to some of your customers. Rhe agentless is a huge deal. The discoveries are awesome. You can see everything and just getting real time information. It's really, really cool. So I'm looking forward to the demo for our guests. Take us on that tour. Let's go with the demo for the guests today. >> All right. Sounds good. So what we're looking at here is within the Armis console is just a clean representation of the passive reporting of what Armis has discovered. So we see a lot of different types of devices from your virtual machines and personal computers, things that are relatively easy to manage. But working our way down, you're able to see a lot of different types of devices that are not necessarily easy to get visibility into, things like your up systems, IT cameras, dash cams, et cetera, lighting systems. And today's day and age where everything is moving to that smart feature, it's great to have that visibility into what's communicating on my network and getting that, being able to layer on the risk factors associated with it as well as the vulnerabilities. So let's pivot over to our vulnerabilities tab and talk about the the AVM portion, the asset vulnerability management. So what we're looking at is the dashboard where we're reporting another clean representation with customizable dashlets that gives you visuals and reporting and things like new vulnerabilities as they come in. What are the most critical vulnerabilities, the newest as they roll in the vulnerabilities by type? We have hardware. We have application. We have operating systems. As we scroll down, we can see things to break it down by vulnerabilities, by the operating system, Windows, Linux, et cetera. We can create dashlets that show you views of the number of devices that are impacted by these CVEs. And scrolling down, we can see how long have these vulnerabilities been sitting within my environment? So what are the oldest vulnerabilities we have here? And then also of course, vulnerabilities by applications. So things like Google Chrome, Microsoft Office. So we're able to give a good representation of the amount of vulnerabilities as they're associated to the hardware and applications as well. So we're going to dig in and take a a deeper look at one of these vulnerabilities here. So I'm excited to talk today about of where Armis AVM is, but also where it's going as well. So we're not just reporting on things like the CVSS score from NIST NVD. We're also able to report on things like the exploitability of that. How actively is this CVE being exploited in the wild? We're reporting EPSS scores. For example, we're able to take open source information as well as a lot of our partnerships that we have with other vendors that are giving us a lot of great value of known vulnerabilities associated with the applications and with hardware, et cetera. But where we're going with this is in very near future releases, we're going to be able to take an algorithm approach of, what are the most critical CVSS that we see? How exploitable are those? What are common threat actors doing with these CVEs? Have they weaponized these CVEs? Are they actively using those weaponized tools to exploit these within other folks' environments? And who's reporting on these? So we're going to take all of these and then really add that Armis flavor of we already know what that device is and we can explain and so can the users of it, the business criticality of that device. So we're able to pivot over to the matches as we see the CVEs. We're able to very cleanly view, what exactly are the devices that the CVE resides on. And as you can see, we're giving you more than just an IP address or a lot more context and we're able to click in and dive into what exactly are these devices. And more importantly, how critical are these devices to my environment? If one of these devices were to go down if it were to be a server, whatever it may be, I would want to focus on those particular devices and ensuring that that CVE, especially if it's an exploitable CVE were to be addressed earlier than say the others and really be able to manage and prioritize these. Another great feature about it is, for example, we're looking at a particular CVE in terms of its patch and build number from Windows 10. So the auto result feature that we have, for example, we've passively detected what this particular personal computer is running Windows 10 and the build and revision numbers on it. And then once Armis passively discovers an update to that firmware and patch level, we can automatically resolve that, giving you a confidence that that has been addressed from that particular device. We're also able to customize and look through and potentially select a few of these, say, these particular devices reside on your guest network or an employee wifi network where we don't necessarily, I don't want to say care, but we don't necessarily value that as much as something internally that holds significantly, more business criticality. So we can select some of these and potentially ignore or resolve for determining reasons as you see here. Be able to really truly manage and prioritize these CVEs. As I scroll up, I can pivot over to the remediation tab and open up each one of these. So what this is doing is essentially Armis says, through our knowledge base been able to work with the vendors and pull down the patches associated with these. And within the remediation portion, we're able to view, for example, if we were to pull down the patch from this particular vendor and apply it to these 60 devices that you see here, right now we're able to view which patches are going to gimme the most impact as I prioritize these and take care of these affected devices. And lastly, as I pivot back over. Again, where we're at now is we're able to allow the users to customize the organizational priority of this particular CVE to where in terms of, this has given us a high CVSS score but maybe for whatever reasons it may be, maybe this CVE in terms of this particular logical segment of my network, I'm going to give it a low priority for whatever the use case may be. We have compensating controls set in place that render this CVE not impactful to this particular segment of my environment. So we're able to add that organizational priority to that CVE and where we're going as you can see that popped up here but where we're going is we're going to start to be able to apply the organizational priority in terms of the actual device level. So what we'll see is we'll see a column added to here to where we'll see the the business impact of that device based on the importance of that particular segment of your environment or the device type, be it critical networking device or maybe a critical infrastructure device, PLCs, controllers, et cetera, but really giving you that passive reporting on the CVEs in terms of what the device is within your network. And then finally, we do integrate with your vulnerability management and scanners as well. So if you have a scanner actively scanning these, but potentially they're missing segments of your net network, or they're not able to actively scan certain devices on your network, that's the power of Armis being able to come back in and give you that visibility of not only what those devices are for visibility into them, but also what vulnerabilities are associated with those passive devices that aren't being scanned by your network today. So with that, that concludes my demo. So I'll kick it back over to you, John. >> Awesome. Great walk through there. Take me through what you think the most important part of that. Is it the discovery piece? Is it the interaction? What's your favorite? >> Honestly, I think my favorite part about that is in terms of being able to have the visibility into the devices that a lot of folks don't see currently. So those IoT devices, those OT devices, things that you're not able to run a scan on or put an agent on. Armis is not only giving you visibility into them, but also layering in, as I said before, those vulnerabilities on top of that, that's just visibility that a lot of folks today don't have. So Armis does a great job of giving you visibility and vulnerabilities and risks associated with those devices. >> So I have to ask you, when you give this demo to customers and prospects, what's the reaction? Falling out of their chair moment? Are they more skeptical? It's almost too good to be true and end to end vulnerability management is a tough nut to crack in terms of solution. >> Honestly, a lot of clients that we've had, especially within the OT and the medical side, they're blown away because at the end of the day when we can give them that visibility, as I've said, Hey, I didn't even know that those devices resided in that portion, but not only we showing them what they are and where they are and enrichment on risk factors, et cetera, but then we show them, Hey, we've worked with that vendor, whatever it may be and Rockwell, et cetera, and we know that there's vulnerabilities associated with those devices. So they just seem to be blown away by the fact that we can show them so much about those devices from behind one single console. >> It reminds me of the old days. I'm going to date myself here. Remember the old Google Maps mashup days. Customers talk about this as the Google Maps for their assets. And when you have the Google Maps and you have the Ubers out there, you can look at the trails, you can look at what's happening inside the enterprise. So there's got to be a lot of interest in once you get the assets, what's going on those networks or those roads, if you will, 'cause you got in packet movement. You got things happening. You got upgrades. You got changing devices. It's always on kind of living thing. >> Absolutely. Yeah, it's what's on my network. And more importantly at times, what's on those devices? What are the risks associated with the the applications running on those? How are those devices communicating? And then as we've seen here, what are the vulnerabilities associated with those and how can I take action with them? >> Real quick, put a plug in for where I can find the demo. Is it online? Is it on YouTube? On the website? Where does someone see this demo? >> Yeah, the Armis website has a lot of demo content loaded. Get you in touch with folks like engineers like myself to provide demos whenever needed. >> All right, Bryan, thanks for coming on this show. Appreciate, Sales Engineer at Armis, Bryan Inman. Given the demo God award out to him. Good job. Thanks for the demo. >> Thanks, thanks for having me. >> Okay. In a moment, we're going to have my closing thoughts on this event and really the impact to the business operations side, in a moment. I'm John Furrier of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, welcome back to the manager risk across the extended attack surface with Armas I'm John fair host of the cube. Got the demo. God here, Brian Inman sales engineer at Armit. Brian. Thanks for coming on. We're looking forward to the demo, how you doing? >>I'm doing well, John, thanks for having me, >>You know, we heard from Nair, you know, describing arm's platform, a lot of intelligence. It's like a search engine meets data at scale intelligent platform around laying out the asset map. If you will, the new vulnerability module among other things that really solves CISO's problems, a lot of great customer testimonials. And we, we got the demo here that you're gonna give us, what's the demo about what are we, what are we gonna see? >>Well, John, thanks. Great question. And truthfully, I think as NAIA has pointed out what AIS as a baseline is giving you is, is great visibility into every asset on your that's communicating within your, within your environment. And from there, what we've done is we've layered on known vulnerabilities associated with not just the device, but also what else is on the device. What's is there certain applications running on that device, the versions of those applications and what are the vulnerabilities known with that? So that's really gives you great visibility in, in terms of the devices that folks aren't necessarily have visibility into now, unmanaged devices, OT devices, OT, and critical infrastructure, medical devices, things that you're not necessarily able to actively scan or put an agent on. So not only is Armas telling you about these devices, but we're also layer layering on those vulnerabilities all passively and in real time, >>A lot of great feedback we've heard and I've talked to some of your customers, the agent list is a huge deal. The Discover's at awesome. You can see everything and, and just getting real time information. It's really, really cool. So I'm looking forward to, for the demo for our guests, take us on that tour. Let's go with the demo for the guests today. >>All right. Sounds good. So what we're looking at here is within the Armas console is just a clean representation of the passive reporting of what Armas has discovered. So we see a lot of different types of devices, you know, from your virtual machines and personal computers, things that are relatively easy to manage, but working our way down, you're able to see a lot of different of the different types of devices that are not necessarily easy to, to get visibility into things like your up systems, IP cameras, dash cams, et cetera, lighting systems, and, and today's day and age, where everything is moving to the, that smart feature. You know, it's, it's great to have that visibility into, you know, what's communicating on my network and getting that, being able to layer on the risk factors associated with it, as well as the vulnerabilities. So let's pivot over to our vulnerabilities tab and talk about the, the ADM portion, the asset vulnerability management. >>So what we're looking at is the dashboard where we're reporting a, a, another clean representation with customizable dashboards that gives you visuals and reporting and things like new vulnerabilities as they come in, you know, what are the most critical vulnerabilities that are the, the newest as they roll in the vulnerabilities by type, we have hardware, we have application, we have operating systems. As we scroll down, we can see things to break it down by vulnerabilities, by the operating system, windows, Linux, et cetera. We can take, you know, create dashes that show you views of the, the number of, of devices that are impacted by these CVEs and scrolling down. We can see, you know, what, how long have these vulnerabilities been sitting within my environment? So how, what are the oldest vulnerabilities we have here? And then also of course, vulnerabilities by applications. So things like Google Chrome, Microsoft office. >>So we're able to give a, a good representation of the amount of vulnerabilities as they're associated to the hardware and applications as well. So we're gonna dig in and take a, a deeper look at one of these vulnerabilities here. So I'm excited to talk today about where Armas ABM is, but also where it's going as well. So we're not just reporting on things like the CVSs score from, from N N VD. We're also able to report on things like the exploitability of that, right? How, how actively is this, this CVE being exploited in the wild, right? We're reporting E EPSS scores. For example, we're able to take open source information as well as a lot of our partnerships that we have with other vendors that are giving us a lot of great value of known vulnerabilities associated with the applications and with hardware, et cetera. >>But we're where we're going with. This is we're in Fu very near future releases. We're gonna be able to, to take sort of an algorithm approach of what are the most critical CVSs that we see, how exploitable are those, what are common threat actors doing with these, these CVEs have they weaponized these CVS? Are they actively using those weaponized tools to exploit these within, within other folks' environments? And who's reporting on these. So we're gonna take all of these and then really add that Armas flavor of we already know what that device is, and we can explain. And, and so can the users of it, the business criticality of that device, right? So we're able to pivot over to the matches as we see the CVEs, we're able to very cleanly view, what are, what exactly are the devices that the CVE resides on, right? >>And as you can see, we're giving you more than just an IP address or more, you know, a lot more context, and we're able to click in and dive into what exactly are these devices and how, and more importantly, how critical are these devices to, to my, my environment, if one of these devices were to go down, if it were to be a server, if you know, whatever it may be, I would wanna focus on those particular devices and ensuring that that CVE, especially if it's an exploitable CVE were to be addressed or early, earlier than, than say the others, and really be able to manage and prioritize these another great feature about it is, you know, for example, we're looking at a, a particular CVE in terms of its its patch and build number from windows 10. So the AutoSol feature that we have, for example, we've passively detected what this particular personal computer is running windows 10 and the build and revision numbers on it. >>And then once Armas passively discovers an update to that firmware and patch level, we can automatically resolve that, giving you a, a confidence that that has been addressed from that particular device. We're also able to customize and look through and potentially select a few of these, say, you know, these particular devices reside on your guest network or an employee wifi network where we don't necessarily, I don't wanna say care, but we don't necessarily value that as much as something in, you know, internally that has holds significantly more business criticality. So we can select some of these and potentially ignore or resolve for determining reasons. As you see here, be able to really truly manage and prioritize these, these CVEs. As I scroll up, I can pivot over to the remediation tab and open up each one of these. So what this is doing is essentially Arma says, you know, through our knowledge base, been able to work with the vendors and, and pull down the patches associated with these. >>And within the remediation portion, we're able to view, for example, if we were to pull down the patch from this particular vendor and apply it to these 60 devices that you see here, right now, we're able to F to view, you know, which patches are gonna gimme the most impact as I prioritize these and take care of these affected devices. And lastly, as I pivot back, go again, where we're at now is we're able to allow the, the users to customize the organizational priority of this particular CVE, to where in terms of, you know, this has, has given us a high CVSs score, but maybe for whatever reasons it may be maybe this CVE in terms of this particular logical segment of my network, I'm gonna give it a low priority for whatever the use case may be. We have compensating controls set in place that, that render this CVE, not impactful to this particular segment of my environment. >>So we're able to add that organizational priority to that CVE and where we're going, as you can see that that popped up here, but where we're going is we're gonna start to be able to apply the, the organizational priority in terms of the actual device level. Right? So what we'll see is we'll see a, a column added to here to where we'll see the, the business impact of that device, based on the importance of that particular segment of your environment or the device type, be it, you know, critical networking device, or maybe a, a critical infrastructure device, PLCs controllers, et cetera, but really giving you that passive reporting on the CVEs in terms of what the device is within your network. And then finally we do integrate with your vulnerability, vulnerability management, and scanners as well. So if you have a scanner actively scanning these, but potentially they're missing segments of your net network, or they're not able to actively scan certain devices on your network, that's the power of Armas being able to come back in and give you that visibility of not only what those devices are for visibility into them, but also what vulnerabilities are associated with those passive devices that aren't being scanned by your network today. >>So with that that's, that concludes my demo. So I'll kick it back over to you, John. >>Awesome. Great, great walk through there. Take me through what you think the most important part of that. Is it the discovery piece? Is it the interaction what's your favorite? >>Honestly, I think my favorite part about that is, you know, in terms of being able to have the visibility into the devices, that a lot of folks don't see currently. So those OT devices, those OT devices, things that you're not able to, to run a scan on or put an agent on Armas is not only giving you visibility into them, but also layering in, as I said before, those vulnerabilities on top of that, that's just visibility that a lot of folks today don't have. So Armas does a great job of giving you visibility and vulnerabilities and risks associated with those devices. >>So I have to ask you, when you give this demo to customers and prospects, what's the reaction falling outta their chair moment? Are they more skeptical? It's almost too good to be true. And the end to end vulnerability management's is a tough nut to crack in terms of solution. >>Well, honestly, a lot of clients that we've had, you know, especially within the OT and the medical side, they're, they're blown away because at the end of the day, when we can give them that visibility, as I've said, you know, Hey, I, I didn't even know that those devices resided in that, that portion, but not only are we showing them what they are and where they are and enrichment on risk factors, et cetera. But then we show them, Hey, there's a known, you know, we've worked with that vendor, whatever it may be and, you know, Rockwell, et cetera. And we know that there's vulnerabilities associated with those devices. So they just seem to be blown away by the fact that we can show them so much about those devices from behind one single console. >>You know, it reminds me of the old days. I'm gonna date myself here. Remember the old Google maps, mashup days. This is customers. Talk about this as the Google maps for their assets. And when you have the Google maps and you have the Ubers out there, you can look at the trails, you can look at what's happening inside the, inside the enterprise. So there's gotta be a lot of interest in once you get the assets what's going on, on those, on, in those, on those networks or those roads, if you will, cuz you got in packet movement, you got things happening, you got upgrades, you got changing devices. It's always on kind of living thing. >>Absolutely. Yeah. It's what's on my network. And more importantly at times what's on those devices, right? Are the, what are the risks associated with the, the applications running on those? How are those devices communicating? And then as we've seen here, what are the vulnerabilities associated with those and how can I take action with them? >>All right. Real quick, put a plug in for where I can find the demo. Is it online is on YouTube, on the website. Where does someone see this demo? >>Yeah, the Amis website has a lot of demo content loaded. Get you in touch with folks like engineers like myself to, to provide demos whenever, whenever needed. >>All right, Brian, thanks for coming on this show. Appreciate sales engineer, Armas Brian Inman, given the demo God award out to him. Good job. Thanks for the demo. >>Thanks. Thanks for having me. >>Okay. You know, in a moment we're gonna have my closing thoughts on this event and really the impact to the business operation side. In a moment I'm John fur the cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: The cube presents, the Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022. I'm your host Keith Townsend. It's been a amazing day, three days of coverage 7,500 people, 170 sponsors, a good mix of end user organizations, vendors, just people with open source at large. I've loved the conversations. We're not going to stop that coverage just because this is the last session of the conference. Colin Murphy, senior software engineer, Adobe, >> Adobe. >> Oh, wow. This is going to be fun. And then Liam Randall, the chair of CNCF Cloud Native WebAssembly Day. >> That's correct. >> And CNCF & CEO of Cosmonic. >> That's right. >> All right. First off, let's talk about the show. How has this been different than other, if at all of other Kubecons? >> Well, first I think we all have to do a tremendous round of applause, not only for the vendors, but the CNC staff and all the attendees for coming out. And you have to say, Kubecon is back. The online experiences have been awesome but this was the first one, where Hallwaycon was in full effect. And you had the opportunity to sit down and meet with so many intelligent and inspiring peers and really have a chance to learn about all the exciting innovations that have happened over the last year. >> Colin. >> Yeah, it's been my most enjoyable Kubecon I've ever been to. And I've been to a bunch of them over the last few years. Just the quality of people. The problems that we're solving right now, everywhere from this newer stuff that we're talking about today with WebAssembly but then all these big enterprises trying to getting involved in Kubernetes >> Colin, to your point about the problems that we're solving, in many ways the pandemic has dramatically accelerated the pace of innovation, especially inside the CNCF, which is by far the most critical repository of open source projects that enterprises, governments and individuals rely on around the world, in order to deliver new experiences and to have coped and scaled out within the pandemic over the last few years. >> Yeah, I'm getting this feel, this vibe of the overall show that feels like we're on the cuff for something. There's other shows throughout the year, that's more vendor focused that talk about cloud native. But I think this is going to be the industry conference where we're just getting together and talking about it and it's going to probably be, in the next couple of years, the biggest conference of the year, that's just my personal opinion. >> I actually really strongly agree with you. And I think that the reason for that is the diversity that we get from the open source focus of Kubecon Kubecon has started where the industry really started which was in shared community projects. And I was the executive at Capital One that led the donation of cloud custodian into the CNCF. And I've started and put many projects here. And one of the reasons that you do that is so that you can build real scalable communities, Vendors that oftentimes even have competing interest but it gives us a place where we can truly collaborate where we can set aside our personal agendas and our company's agendas. And we can focus on the problems at hand. And how do we really raise the bar for technology for everybody. >> Now you two are representing a project that, you know as we look at kind of, how the web has evolved the past few decades, there's standards, there's things that we know that work, there's things that we know that don't work and we're beyond cloud native, we're kind of resistant to change. Funny enough. >> That's right. >> So WebAssembly, talk to me about what problem is WebAssembly solving that need solving? >> I think it's fitting that here on the last day of Kubecon, we're starting with the newest standard for the web and for background, there's only four languages that make up what we think of as the modern web. There's JavaScript, there's HTML, there's CSS, and now there's a new idea that's WebAssembly. And it's maybe not a new idea but it's certainly a new standard, that's got massive adoption and acceleration. WebAssembly is best thought of as almost like a portable little virtual machine. And like a lot of great ideas like JavaScript, it was originally designed to bring new experiences to browsers everywhere. And as organizations looked at the portability and security value props that come from this tiny little virtual machine, it's made a wonderful addition to backend servers and as a platform for portability to bring solutions all the way out to the edge. >> So what are some of the business cases for WebAssembly? Like what problem, what business problem are we solving? >> So it, you know, we would not have been able to bring Photoshop to the web without WASM. >> Wow. >> And just to be clear, I had nothing to do with that effort. So I want to make sure everybody understands, but if you have a lot of C++ or C code and you want to bring that experience to the web browser which is a great cost savings, cause it's running on the client's machines, really low latency, high performance experiences in the browser, WASM, really the only way to go. >> So I'm getting hints of fruit berry, Java. >> Liam: Yeah, absolutely. >> Colin: Definitely. >> You know, the look, WebAssembly sounds similar to promises you've heard before, right ones, run anywhere. The difference is, is that WebAssembly is not driven by any one particular vendor. So there's no one vendor that's trying to bring a plug in to every single device. WebAssembly was a recognition, much like Kubecon, the point that we started with around the diversity of thought ideas and representation of shared interest, of how do we have a platform that's polyglot? Many people can bring languages to it, and solutions that we can share and then build from there. And it is unlocking some of the most amazing and innovative experiences, both on the web backend servers and all the way to the edge. Because WebAssembly is a tiny little virtual machine that runs everywhere. Adobe's leadership is absolutely incredible with the things that they're doing with WebAssembly. They did this awesome blog post with the Google Chrome team that talked about other performance improvements that were brought into Chrome and other browsers, in order to enable that kind of experience. >> So I get the general concept of WebAssembly and it's one of those things that I have to ask the question, and I appreciate that Adobe uses it but without the community, I mean, I've dedicated some of my team's resources over the years to some really cool projects and products that just died on the buying cause there was no community around. >> Yeah. >> Who else uses WebAssembly? >> Yeah, I think so. We actually, inside the CNCF now, have an entire day devoted just to WebAssembly and as the co-chair of the CNCF Cloud Native WebAssembly Day, we really focus on bringing those case studies to the forefront. So some of the more interesting talks that we had here and at some of the precursor weekend conferences were from BMW, for example, they talked about how they were excited about not only WebAssembly, but a framework that they use on WebAssembly called WASM cloud, that lets them a flexibly scale machine learning models from their own edge, in their own vehicles through to their developer's workstations and even take that data onto their regular cloud Kubernetes and scale analysis and analytics. They invested and they just released a machine learning framework for one of the many great WebAssembly projects called WASM cloud, which is a CNCF project, a member project here in the CNCF. >> So how does that fit in overall landscape? >> So think of WebAssembly, like you think of HTML. It's a technology that gives you a lot of concept and to accelerate your journey on those technologies, people create frameworks. For example, if you were going to write a UI, you would not very likely start with an empty document you'd start with a react or view. And in a similar vein, if you were going to start a new microservice or backend application, project for WebAssembly, you might use WASM cloud or you might use ATMO or you might use a Spin. Those are three different types of projects. They all have their own different value props and their own different opinions that they bring to them. But the point is is that this is a quickly evolving space and it's going to dramatically change the type of experiences that we bring, not only to web browsers but to servers and edges everywhere. >> So Colin, you mentioned C+ >> Colin: Yeah. >> And other coding. Well , talk to me about the ramp up. >> Oh, well, so, yeah, so, C++ there was a lot of work done in scripting, at Adobe. Taking our C++ code and bringing it into the browser. A lot of new instructions, Cimdi, that were brought to make a really powerful experience, but what's new now is the server side aspect of things. So, just what kind of, what Liam was talking about. Now we can run this stuff in the data center. It's not just for people's browsers anymore. And then we can also bring it out to the edge too, which is a new space that we can take advantage of really almost only through WebAssembly and some JavaScript. >> So wait, let me get this kind of under hook. Before, if I wanted a rich experience, I have to run a heavy VDI instance on the back end so that I'm basically getting remote desktop calls from a light thin client back to my backend server, that's heavy. >> That is heavy. >> WebAssembly is alternative to that? >> Yes, absolutely. Think of WebAssembly as a tiny little CPU that is a shim, that we can take the places that don't even traditionally have a concept of a processor. So inside the browser, for example, traditionally cloud native development on the backend has been dominated by things like Docker and Docker is a wonderful technology and Container is a wonderful technology that really drove the last 10 years of cloud native with the great lift and shift, if you will. Take our existing applications, package them up in this virtual desktop and then deliver them. But to deliver the next 10 years of experiences, we need solutions that let us have portability first and a security model that's portable across the entire landscape. So this isn't just browsers and servers on the back end, WebAssembly creates an a layer of equality from truly edge to edge. It's can transcend different CPUs, different operating systems. So where containers have this lower bound off you need to be running Linux and you need to be in a place where you're going to bring Kubernetes. WebAssembly is so small and portable, it transcends that lower bound. It can go to places like iOS. It can go to places like web browsers. It can even go to teeny tiny CPUs that don't even traditionally have a full on operating systems inside them. >> Colin: Right, places where you can't run Docker. >> So as I think about that, and I'm a developer and I'm running my back end and I'm running whatever web stack that I want, how does this work? Like, how do I get started with it? >> Well, there's some great stuff Liam already mentioned with WASM cloud and Frmion Spin. Microsoft is heavily involved now on providing cloud products that can take advantage of WebAssembly. So we've got a lot of languages, new languages coming in.net and Ruby, Rust is a big one, TinyGo, really just a lot of places to get involved. A lot of places to get started. >> At the highest level Finton Ryan, when he was at Gartner, he's a really well known analyst. He wrote something profound a few years ago. He said, WebAssembly is the one technology, You don't need a strategy to adopt. >> Mm. >> Because frankly you're already using it because there's so many wonderful experiences and products that are out there, like what Adobe's doing. This virtual CPU is not just a platform to run on cloud native and to build applications towards the edge. You can embed this virtual CPU inside of applications. So cases where you would want to allow your users to customize an application or to extend functionality. Give you an example, Shopify is a big believer in WebAssembly because while their platform covers, two standard deviations or 80% of the use cases, they have a wonderful marketplace of extensions that folks can use in order to customize the checkout process or apply specialized discounts or integrate into a partner ecosystem. So when you think about the requirements for those scenarios, they line up to the same requirements that we have in browsers and servers. I want real security. I want portability. I want reuseability. And ultimately I want to save money and go faster. So organizations everywhere should take a few minutes and do a heads up and think about one, where WebAssembly is already in their environment, inside of places like Envoy and Istio, some of the most popular projects in the cloud native ecosystem, outside of Kubernetes. And they should perhaps consider studying, how WebAssembly can help them to transform the experiences that they're delivering for their customers. This may be the last day of Kubecon, but this is certainly not the last time we're going to be talking about WebAssembly, I'll tell you that. >> So, last question, we've talked a lot about how to get started. How about day two, when I'm thinking about performance troubleshooting and ensuring clients have a great experience what's day two operation like? >> That's a really good question. So there's, I know that each language kind of brings their own tool chain and their, and you know we saw some great stuff on, on WASM day. You can look it up around the .net experience for debugging, They really tried to make it as seamless and the same as it was for native code. So, yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, right now it's still trying to figure out server side, It's still, as Liam said, a shifting landscape. But we've got some great stuff out here already >> You know, I'd make an even bigger call than that. When I think about the last 20 years as computing has evolved, we've continued to move through these epics of tech that were dominated by a key abstraction. Think about the rise of virtualization with VMware and the transition to the cloud. The rise of containerization, we virtualized to OS. The rise of Kubernetes and CNCF itself, where we virtualize cloud APIs. I firmly believe that WebAssembly represents the next epic of tech. So I think that day two WebAssembly continues to become one of the dominant themes, not only across cloud native but across the entire technical computing landscape. And it represents a fundamentally gigantic opportunity for organizations such as Adobe, that are always market leading and at the cutting edge of tech, to bring new experiences to their customers and for vendors to bring new platforms and tools to companies that want to execute on that opportunity. >> Colin Murphy, Liam Randall, I want to thank you for joining the Cube at Kubecon Cloudnativecon 2022. I'm now having a JavaScript based app that I want to re-look at, and maybe re-platforming that to WebAssembly. It's some lot of good stuff there. We want to thank you for tuning in to our coverage of Kubecon Cloudnativecon. And we want to thank the organization for hosting us, here from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's special showcase with Unstoppable Domains. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. And Matt Gould who's the founder and CEO of Unstoppable Domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company, Unstoppable Domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >> Well, thank you, happy to be here. >> So first of all, love the story you've got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big Web3 wave, which we know that leads into, metaverse unlimited new ways, people are consuming information, content, applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with Web3. So this is kind of what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >> Yeah, well, I would say it's a torrent of change that got unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items and you see it from, you know Gaming and Fortnite and Skins and Warcraft and all these other places. But this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend to a whole lot more applications, from money, which everyone's familiar with, to NFT projects like Board Apes or CryptoBucks. >> You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pod. I think you're on 117 episodes now and growing. You guys do a deep dive, so people watching check out the Unstoppable Podcast. But on the last podcast, Matt, you mentioned some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet, but IP was generated by the United States Department of Commerce and R&D, that became the internet, the internet became the web. Back then it was just get some web pages up and find what you're looking for. Very analog compared to what's now today, now you mentioned gaming. You mentioned how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about the queue for many, many years now, but it's at actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding in groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >> Yeah, well, I think it just goes back to the shift of people's where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much of their assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset compared to literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen. And simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, ways for you to track digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with Web3 is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application and then I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now as we transition from a model in Web2, where you are on a hosted service like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? To a system where it's much more open. You can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you and you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an end-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game, and you can spend it somewhere else. So the user is now enable to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now, you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot in how applications serve up to users. It's going to change their user experiences for instance. >> I think the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying, "I'm done with being mined "and being manipulated by the big Facebook "and the LinkedIns of the world who are using the user." Now, the contract was a free product and you gave up your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does a digital identity architecture work with Unstoppable? How would you guys enabling that? Can you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique, you had an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together, can you explain? >> Yeah, so we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle, when you log on Instagram, you have an Instagram handle. It's your name, right? You have that name that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a 100% of their followers, right? And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers, who are today's small businesses, who build up these large, you know profitable, small businesses online, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. And then they could be deplatformed, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform if that platform raises their fees. You've seen several platforms increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed, right? So we just said, "You know what, "the first thing you're going to want to own "that this is going to be your piece of digital property "is going to be your name across these applications." If you look at every computing network in the history of computing networks, they end up with a naming system. And when we looked back at DNS, you know which came out in the 90s, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier instead of mapping these IP addresses. And then we said to ourselves, "What's going to happen in the future?" Is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their Web2 world in order to identify themselves as they log into all these applications. They're going to have an NFT domain in the Web3 world in order to authenticate and bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. And the bigger breakthrough here is that NFT domain systems all of these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users. They're built on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them and that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging Web3 metaverse. And we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're going to need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of these long IP addresses or hex addresses in the case of crypto. >> Yeah, and also people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name verification, you see the link tree is everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app. I mean, doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people trying to figure it out. I got a github handle. I got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >> Yeah, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app and you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency, and then the first time you try to send it, there's this field where you want to send it and it's this very long hex address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the D apps system replace IP addresses, NFT domains on blockchain systems replace hex addresses for sending and receiving cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you could have an error, or you could send it to the wrong place, it's pretty scary. You could send it to johnfurrier.nft. And so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing it worked with .com domains. And this is the same thing for Bitcoin and other crypto. >> It's interesting, look at the Web2 or trend one to two, Web1 went to two, it was all about use, ease of use, right? And making things simpler, clutter, more pages can't find things that was search, that was Google. Since then, has there actually been an advancement? >> Hmm. >> Facebook certainly is not an advancement, they're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of a free search to all the resources in the world, to which by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the Toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that Web3 crossover? So take us through your vision on digital identity on Web2, Google searching, Facebook's broken, democracy's broken, users aren't in charge to Web3? >> Got it. Well, we can start at Web1. So the way that I think about it is if you go to Web1, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it, right? And then what happened with Web2, was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about Web2, these are all websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or a search engine or whatever. And then as we move to Web3, the new thing that's happening here, is the user is coming onto that experience and they're able to connect in their wallet or their Web3 identity to that app and they can bring their data to the party. So it's kind of like Web1, you just have a static web page, Web2, you have a static webpage with a service, like a server back here, and then Web3, the user can come in and bring their database with them in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that you want data to be portable across apps. So we touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an in-game item for one game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. It also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. But then another thing that happens is I can bring unlimited amount of additional information about myself when I plug in my wallet. And as an example, when I plug into Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enable that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites and I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >> You know, I've always thought about this and always debated it with Dave a lot and my co-host, does top down governance privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation? So what you're getting at here is, "Hey, if you can actually have that solved "(laughing) before it even starts." It was almost as if those services were built for the problem of Web2. >> Yes. >> Not three. >> Right. >> What's your reaction to that? >> I think that is right on the money. And if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots and there have been huge breaches. Like Equifax, you know a few years back is a big one and this all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data, they create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions, to be attack. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at Web3. So for those in the audience who have used, a Web3 application, one of these D app, to trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that stored, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on apps or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these defi exchanges, for instance, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the user is actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, "Wow, that's a much better or data model." And that gives so much more control of user 'cause the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. And so I think you're right and like we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see it like if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR and then all the companies are going, "We can't comply with that." They keep postponing it or like changing it a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're going to be in a much better spot. >> And GDPR is again a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. I always said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored and nevermind how they delete someone's entry in a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level they become so complicated. So right on the money there good, good call out. There question for you. Is this then? Okay, so do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is important on the identity side, wallet is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >> Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term and actually work together. So, if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to mattgloud.crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defi trades or whatever. And that doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think we're going to... Still early, so figuring out exactly how the industry is going to shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon and maybe a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging... What you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. And I also think that your financial applications of defi are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. And just a note on this, when you have a wallet that usually has multiple cryptocurrency addresses, so you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. You're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate and we collaborate with several large wallets as well, like blockchain.com and another 30 plus of these to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >> So the wallet basically is a D app, the way you look at it, the integrated. >> Yeah. >> Whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized application with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay. I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm an my own NFT. I mean, how this video's going to be an NFT soon. We get on board with the program here, but how do I log into my app? I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit is there benchmarking? Is there approval process? Is there APIs and SDK kind of thinking around it? How are you thinking about dealing with the apps? >> Yeah, so all of the above. And what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution, but it's consumer based. So what we've done is adapted some SSO protocols that other people have used, the standard ones, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you GET the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are, you know, standard Web2 APIs, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user-controlled NFT. So they're assigning it that with their private public key pair in order to make those updates. So that allows you to connect into both of these systems. We think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. You have an integration of these technologies over time. And we really see these Web3 components and net two domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google off, Facebook off, or you can type in an email address, you could see NFT, Unstoppable Domains or NFT authorization. And you can SSO in to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself, 'cause you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, "Yes, I am a unique individual. "I do live in New York and I just bought a new house." And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. And we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts online for e-commerce specifically in the future because that opens up a whole new market. 'Cause they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information directly to the app. >> I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency, in game end engagement, in game data. And now bringing that to kind of a horizontally scalable like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think that's a huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is you getting any pushback from, ICANN, the International Corporation of Naming and Numbers, they got dot everything now.club, 'cause the clubhouse, they got dot, party.live. I mean the real domain name people are over here, Web2, you guys are coming out with the Web3. Where is that connect for people who are not following along the Web3 trend? How do you rationalize the domain angle here? >> Yeah, well, so I would say that NFT domains are what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago. And they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, 20 to 50 million small businesses who own the majority of these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus. NFT domains, because all of a sudden you have the wallet, you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end users. So instead of being for 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to four billion people who have an internet connection. And so we actually think that the market size for NFT domains is somewhere 50 to a hundred X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for individuals on a day to day basis. So it's like people are going to want you on a use them for receiving cryptocurrency or receiving dollars or payments or USCC coin, where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. And they're not going to want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what Web2 is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are going to want to work with and adopt this new NFT technology, 'cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain names. So like in short, I think NFT domain names are domain names with superpowers. This is the next generation of naming systems. And naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >> Yeah, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean they just can't, they're not built for that. And having people, having their own names, is essentially what decentralization is all about. 'Cause we, what is a company? It's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place, they're decentralized. So then you decentralize the identity and everything's been changed. So completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. You pretty much laid out what's next for Web3, but you guys are in this state of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common use case for folks who are putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see, what's the progression? >> Yeah, so the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately, is we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to 100% year over year. So first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it, if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. And then we want to make it easier for all those people to send crypto back and forth. And I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like... I would say utility focused tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. And that's the really the first step for NFT domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFT domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network top down where you're like a government or corporation, you say, oh, you have to have ID, here's your password, you have to have it. We're going to do it, bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet and up to you domain name, it's going to give them some utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. And we're going to say, "Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile?" Yes. Okay, great. You just attach that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes, Instagram? Yes, TikTok, yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay, yeah, we can attach that back. And then what happens is you end up building up organically digital identifiers for people using these blockchain naming systems. And once they have that, they're going to just... They're going to be able to share that information and that's going to lead to better experiences online for both commerce, but also just better user experiences in general. >> Every company when they web came along first, everyone pro proved the web once. Oh, it's terrible. A bad idea. Oh, it's so, unreliable, so slow. Hard to find things. Web2, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these premalinks became so long, the webpage address fully qualified, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit ceiling. Here, everyone gets their NFT, they start doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. So we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink, permanent. >> Yeah. >> Excellent. >> Yes indeed. I mean, if we're lucky it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >> And the gas prices thing that's always come out always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain's perfect for this 'cause it's, imitable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >> Well, so a couple comments on efficiency. First of all, we picked domains as first product to market. 'Cause you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple times per year. So, the usage for that to set this up and configure it, most people set it up and configure it and then they only have a few changes per year. First of all, the overall you, it's not like a game. >> An IO problem. >> Right, right, right. So that part's good. So we picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking, are computer systems going to get more efficient over time? And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. And I remember the 90s, I had a modem and it was 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56 and then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. And I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time and there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. And you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you would try to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would've had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah, some applications are going to be wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >> Yeah, the motivated parties for innovations here, I mean a point cast failed miserably that was like, they tried to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds, double, triple in homes right now. Matt, congratulations, great stuff. Final, TikTok moment here. How would you summarize in a short clip, the difference between digital identity and Web2 and Web3. >> In Web2, you don't get to own your own online presidence, and in Web3 you do get to own it. So I think if you were going to simplify it, really Web3 is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >> So now users are in charge. >> Exactly, you got it. >> They're not the product anymore. If you got to be the product you might as well monetize the product, and that's the data. Real quick thoughts just to close out the roll of data and all this, your view. >> We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with their users. >> Awesome stuff, Matt, take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What are you guys looking for for hiring, fundraising? Give a quick commercial for what's going on Unstoppable Domains. >> Yeah, so if you haven't already, check us out at unstoppabledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at Unstoppable web. And we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And we are just crossed a hundred people. We're growing, three to five hundred percent year over year. We're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into Web3, even if you're coming from a traditional to background, please reach out. We love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >> And you're a virtual company. You have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >> Yeah, I actually just assumed we are 100% remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet in mostly concentrated in the US and the EU areas. >> I heard a rumor too. Maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >> This is true. And that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. But we also know that recovery is an important part of any organization. So if you push too hard, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. And so we want people to be with us long term, and we do think that this is a 10 year move. And so yeah, do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you- >> That's what I was going to ask you. So what's the consequence of, I don't take vacation. >> Yeah, we literally unplug you. (both laughing) >> You won't be able to get into slack. Right, and that's (indistinct). >> Well, when people start having their avatars be their bought and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFT saying that that's not the real person, it's not the real human. >> Yeah, exactly. We'll be able to check. >> NFT is great innovation, great use case, Matt congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with theCUBE. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, John had a wonderful time. >> All right, this is theCUBE Unstoppable Domains showcasing. We've got 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes. Special showcase with unstoppable domains. I'm John furrier, your host of the cube here in Palo Alto, California and Matt Gould, who is the founder and CEO of unstoppable domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company on stumbled domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >>Thank you. Happy to be here. So >>Love, first of all, love the story you got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big web three wave, which we know where that leads into. Metaverse unlimited new ways. People are consuming information, content applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with web three. So this is kind of the what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >>Yeah. Well, I would say it's a torrent of change and the get unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have a digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items. Do you see it from, you know, gaming and Fortnite and skins and Warcraft and all these other places, but this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend a whole lot more, uh, applications for money, which everyone's familiar with, uh, to, uh, NFT projects, uh, like boarding school. >>You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pot. I think you're on a 117 episodes now and growing, you guys do a deep dive. So people watching check out the unstoppable podcast, but in the last podcast, man, you mentioned, you know, some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet. Um, but IP was, was generated by the United States department of commerce and R and D that became the internet. The internet became the web back then it was just get some webpages up and find what you're looking for. Right. Very analog compared to what's. Now, today, now you mentioned gaming, you mentioned, uh, how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about in the queue for many, many years now, but it's actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding and groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. >>This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >>Yeah, well, I think, uh, it just goes back to the shift of peoples, where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much, how much of assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset, uh, compared to, you know, literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen and simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around, uh, cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, uh, ways for you to track the digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into, uh, your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with web three is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application. >>And I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now. As we transitioned from a model in web to where you're on a hosted service, like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, you know, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? So to assist them where it's much more open, you can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you, uh, and you can, you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an in-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game and you can spend it somewhere else. Uh, so the user is now enabled to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot and how applications, uh, serve up to user. So it's going to change their user experiences. For instance, >>The flip, the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying I'm done with being mined and being manipulated by the big Facebooks and the LinkedIns of the world who were using the user. Now, the contract was a free product and you gave it your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or a marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does the digital identity architecture work with unstoppable? How are you guys enabling that? Could you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique in an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together? Can you explain? >>Yeah. So, uh, we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, uh, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle. When you log on, uh, you know, Instagram, you have an Instagram handle, it's your name, right? You have that name that's that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a hundred percent of their followers, right? And theirs. And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers who are, today's small businesses who build up these large, you know, profitable, small businesses online, uh, you know, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. >>Uh, and then they could be D platform, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform. If that platform raised their fees, you've seen several platforms, increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed. Right. Uh, so we just said, you know what, the first thing you're going to want to own that this is going to be your piece of digital property. It's going to be your name across these applications. And if you look at every computer network in the history of computing networks, the end up with a naming system, and when we've looked back at DDA desk, which came out in the nineties, uh, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier, you know, instead of mapping these IP addresses. Uh, and then we said to ourselves, you know, uh, what's going to happen in the future is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their web two world in order to, uh, identify themselves as they log into all these applications. >>They're going to have an NFT domain in the web three world in order to authenticate and, and, uh, bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. Um, and the bigger breakthrough here is at NMT domain systems or these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users to build on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them. And that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging web three metaverse. Uh, and we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people, you know, with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're gonna need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of, you know, these long IP addresses or a hex addresses in the case of Porto. >>So people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name, verification, you see link trees everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app and it doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people kind of trying to figure it out. I mean, you've got to get up, Angela got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >>Yeah. And, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app, you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency. And then the first time you try to send it, there's this, there's this field where you want to send it. And it's this very long text address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's, it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the DNS system replace IP addresses in Ft domains, uh, on blockchain systems, replace hex addresses for sending and receiving, you know, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just, instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you can have an error or you can send it to the wrong place. It's pretty scary. You could send it to John furrier dot, uh, NFT. And uh, so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing. It worked with the.com domains. And this is the same thing for the coin and other >>Crypto. It's interesting to look at the web two or trend one to two web one went to two. It was all about user ease of use, right? And making things simpler. Clutter, you have more pages. You can't find things that was search that was Google since then. Has there actually been an advancement? Facebook certainly is not an advancement. They're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of, you know, a free search to all the resources in the world, to which, by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that web three crossover. So take us through your vision on digital identity on web to Google searching, Facebook's broken democracy is broken users. Aren't in charge to web three. >>Got it. Well, we can start at web one. So the way that I think about it is if you go to web one, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it. Right. Uh, and then what happened with web two was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about web two, these are all, you know, these are websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or search engine or whatever. And then as we moved to web three, the new thing that's happening here is the user is coming on to that experience. And they're able to connect in their wallet or their web three identity, uh, to that app and they can bring their data to the party. >>So it's kind of like web one, you just have a static web page whip, two, you have a static web page with a service, like a server back here. And then with three, the user can come in and bring their database with them, uh, in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that the, you want data to be portable across apps. So we've touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an end game item for one, a game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. Uh, it also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. >>Uh, but then another thing that happens is I can bring in from, you know, an unlimited amount of additional information about myself. When I plug in my wallet, uh, as an example, when I plug in to Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enabled that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites. And I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >>I always thought about this and I always debated it with David laundry. My cohost does top down governance, privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation. So what you're getting at here is, Hey, if you can actually have that solved before it even starts, it was almost as if those services were built for the problem of web two. Yes, not three. Write your reaction to that. >>I think that is, uh, right on the money. And, uh, if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots. And there have been huge, uh, breaches like Equifax, you know, a few years back is a big one and just all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your, uh, credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data. They create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not, billions, to be attacked. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at web three. >>So for those of the audience who have used the web three application, one of these depths, um, you know, trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect to your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you, you know, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that storage, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on depths or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these DFI exchanges, for instance, uh, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the users actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, wow, that's a much better data model. And that give so much more control of user because the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. Um, and so I think you're right. And like, we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see, like, if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR. And then all the companies are going, we can't comply with that and they keep postponing it or like changing a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're gonna be in a much better spot. >>The GDPR is again, a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. Oh, I said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored. Nevermind how they delete someone's entering a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level it becomes so complicated. So right on the money are good. Good call out there. Question for you. Is this then? Okay. So do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together? Uh, and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is super important on the identity side while it, is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >>Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. Right. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term, uh, and they actually work together. So, you know, like if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to, you know, method, rules dot crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defy trades or whatever. And doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to, uh, you know, sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. >>And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think there's, we're gonna still early. So figuring out exactly how the industry is gonna shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon. And it may be a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging, uh, what you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. Uh, and I also think that your financial applications of defy are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. Um, and just to, you know, a note on this, when you have a wallet, it usually has multiple cryptocurrency address. So you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. Uh, you're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate. And we collaborate with several large wallets as well, uh, like blockchain.com, uh, and you know, another 30 plus of these, uh, to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >>So the wallet, basically as a D app, the way you look at it, you integrate whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized applications with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay, I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm in my own NFT. I mean, hell, this video is going to be an NFT. Soon. We get on board with the program here. Uh, but I do, I log into my app, I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit, is there benchmarking, is there approval process? Is there API APIs and a SDK kind of thinking around it? How do you thinking about dealing with the apps? >>Yeah, so all of the above and what we're trying to, what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution. Uh, but that it's consumer based. So, uh, what we've done is adapted some SSL protocols that other people have used the standard ones, uh, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you keep the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are standard web to API APIs. Uh, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user controlled in FTE. So they're assigning that with their private public key pair order to make those updates. Um, so that, that allows you to connect into both of these systems. Uh, we think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. >>You have an integration of these technologies over time. Uh, and we really see these three components in MTU domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google or Facebook, or you can type in an email address, you can see not ensemble domains or NFT, uh, authorization, and you can SSO in with that, to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself because you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, yes, I am a unique individual. I do live in New York, uh, and I just bought a new house. Right. And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. Um, and we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts, um, online for e-commerce specifically, uh, in the future, because that opens up a whole new market because they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information. >>Yeah. I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency in game to engagement in game data. And now bringing that, so kind of a horizontally scalable, like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think you're, that's huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is, um, you getting any pushback from ICANN, the international corporates have name and numbers. They got dot everything now.club, cause the clubhouse, they got dot, you know, party.live. I mean, so the real domain name people are over here, web too. You guys are coming out with the web three where's that connect for people who are not following along the web three trend. How do they, how do you rationalize the, the domain angle here? >>Yeah, well, uh, so I would say that NFTE domains or what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago and they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being the business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, uh, who, uh, own the majority of these, uh, these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus NFTE domains because all of a sudden you have the, uh, the Walton, if you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end-users. So, and instead of being for, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to 4 billion people who have an internet connection. >>Uh, and so we actually think that the market size we're in a few domains and somewhere 50 to 100 X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for, uh, individuals on a day-to-day basis. So it's like people are gonna want you on to use them for receiving cryptocurrency versus receiving dollars or payments or USCC point where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. Uh, and they're not gonna want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what web is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are gonna want to work with and adopt this new NFC technology. Cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain next. So like in short, I think NMT domain names or domain names with superpowers, this is the next generation of, uh, naming systems and naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >>Yeah. They hit a car, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean, they just can't, they're not built for that. Right. So I mean, and, and having people, having their own names is essentially what decentralization is all about. Cause what does a company, it's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place they're decentralized. So, and then you decentralize the identity and everything's can been changed so completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. Um, you pretty much laid out what's next for web three, but you guys are in this state of, of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the, what are the, um, best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common, uh, use case for folks we're putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see what's the progression? >>Yeah. So the, the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately is, uh, we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I, and I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to a hundred percent year over year. So, uh, first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. Uh, and then we want to make it easier for all those people to sit encrypted back and forth. And I, and I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like, you know, I would say utility focused, uh, tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for, you know, transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. >>Uh, and that's the really the first step freight FTE domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFTE domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, um, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network, top-down where you're like a government or a corporation say, oh, you have to have ID. Here's your password. You have to have it. We're going to do a bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet, NFTE domain name, it's going to give them to the utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. They're going to say, Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile? Yes. Okay, great. You test that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes. Instagram. Yes. Tik TOK. Yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay. Yeah, we can attach that back. Uh, and then what happens is you end up building up organically, uh, digital identifiers for people using these blockchain, uh, naming systems. And once they have that, they're gonna just, they're going to be able to share that information. Uh, and that's gonna lead to better experiences online for, uh, both commerce, but also just better user experiences. >>You know, every company when they web came along, first of all, everyone, poo-pooed the web ones. That was terrible, bad idea. Oh. And so unreliable. So slow, hard to find things. Web two, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these permalinks became so long. The web page address fully qualified, you know, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit a ceiling here. Everyone gets their NFT. They, they started doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. Um, so we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink permanent. Yeah. >>Yes. I mean, if we're lucky, it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity, uh, that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >>And the gas prices thing that's always coming. That's always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain is perfect for this because it's immutable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >>Well, so a couple of comments on efficiency. Uh, first of all, we picked domains as a first product to market because, you know, as you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do, uh, and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. Right? So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple of times per year. So, so the usage for that to set this up and configure it, you know, most people set up and configure it and then it'll have a few changes for years. First of all, the overall it's not like a game problem. Right, right, right. So, so that, that part's good. We picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking our computer, system's going to get more efficient over time. >>And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. Uh, and you know, I remember the nineties, I had a modem and it was, you know, whatever, 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56, then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. Uh, and I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time. And you know, there's, there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. Uh, and you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you had tried to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would have had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah. Some applications are going to wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >>Yeah. The motivated parties for innovations here, I mean, a point cast failed miserably that was like the, they try to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds double, triple on homes right now, Matt. Congratulations. Great stuff. Final tick, tock moment here. How would you summarize short in a short clip? The difference between digital identity in web two and web three, >>Uh, in, in web too, you don't get to own your own online presidents and in web three, you do get to own it. So I think if you were gonna simplify it really web three is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >>So now users are in charge. >>Exactly. >>They're not the product anymore. Going to be the product might as well monetize the product. And that's the data. Um, real quick thoughts just to close out the role of data in all this, your view. >>We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with >>Awesome stuff, man, I take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What do you guys looking for for hiring, um, fundraising, give a quick, a quick commercial for what's going on, on unstoppable domains. Yeah. >>So if you haven't already check us out@ensembledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at unstoppable web, and we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And, uh, we are just crossed a hundred people. We've, we're growing, you know, three to five, a hundred percent year over year. Uh, we're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into web three, even if you're coming from a traditional web two background, please reach out. Uh, we love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >>And you're a virtual company. Do you have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >>Yeah, I actually just assumed we were a hundred percent remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet. Uh, mostly concentrated in the U S and EU areas, >>Rumor to maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >>Uh, this is true. Uh, and that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. And, but we also know that recovery is an important part of any organizations. So if you push too hard, uh, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. Uh, and so we want people to be with us term. Uh, we do think that this is a ten-year move. And so yeah. Do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you have >>To ask me, so what's the consequence of, I don't think vacation. >>Yeah. We literally unplug it. You won't be able to get it. You won't be able to get into slack. Right. And that's a, that's how we regulate. >>Well, when people start having their avatars be their bot and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFD saying that that's not the real person. It's not the real human And FTS. Great innovation, great use case, Matt. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with the cube. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >>John had a wonderful time. All right. Just the >>Cube unstoppable domains showcasing. We got great 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage on John furrier with cube. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this Cube conversation sponsored by Citrix. This is the third and final installment in the Citrix launchpad series. We're going to be talking about the launchpad series for work. Lisa Martin here with Dion Hinchcliffe, VP and principal analyst at Constellation research. Dion, welcome to the program. >> No, thanks Lisa. Great to be here. >> So we have seen a tremendous amount of change in the last 18, 19 months. You know, we saw this massive scatter to work from home a year and a half ago. Now we're in this sort of distributed environment. That's been persisting for a long time. Talk to me about, we're going to be talking about some of the things that Citrix is seeing and some of the things that they're doing to help individuals and teams, but give me your lens from Constellation's perspective. What are some of the major challenges with this distributed environment that you've seen? >> Sure. Well, so we've gone from this, you know, the world of work, the way that it was now, we're all very decentralized, you know, work from anywhere. Remote work is really dominating, you know, white collar types of activities in the workplace and workplaces that in our homes for most of us even today. But that started to change. Some people are going back. Although I just recently spoke to a panel of CIOs that says they have no plans anytime soon, but they're very aware that they need to have workable plans for when we start sending people back to the office and there's this big divide. How are we going to make sure that we have one common culture? We have a collaborative organization when, you know, a good percentage of our workers are in the office, but also maybe as much as half the organization is at home. And so, how to make processes seamless, how to make people collaborate and make sure there's equity and inclusion so that the people at home aren't left out and then people in the office, maybe you don't have an unfair advantage. So those are all the conversations. And of course, because this is a technology revolution, remote work was enabled by technology. We're literally looking at it again for this hybrid work, this, you know, this divided organization that we're going to have. >> You mentioned culture that's incredibly important, but also challenging to do with this distribution. I was looking at some research that Citrix provided, asking individuals from a productivity perspective, and two thirds said, hey, for our organizations that have given us more tools for collaboration and communication, yes, we are absolutely more productive. But the kicker is, the same amount of people, about two thirds that answered the survey said, we've now got about ten tools. So complexity is more challenging. It's harder to work individually. It's harder to work in teams. And so Citrix is really coming to the table here with the launchpad series for work, saying let's help these individuals and these teams, because as we, we think, and I'm sure you have insight Dion on this as well, this hybrid model that we're starting to see emerge is going to be persistent for a while. >> Yeah. For the foreseeable future. Cause we don't know what the future holds. So we'll have to hold the hybrid model as the primary model. And we may eventually go back to the way that we were. But for the next several years, there's going to be that. And so we're trying to wrap our arms around that. And I think that we're seeing with things like the Citrix announcements, a wave of responses saying, all right, let's really design properly for these changes. You know, we kind of just adapted quickly when everyone went to remote last year and now we're actually adding features to streamline, to reduce the friction, to simplify remote work, which does use, you have to use more applications. You have to switch between different things. You have to, you know, your employee experience in the digital world is just more cluttered and complicated, but it doesn't have to be. And so I, you know, we can look to some of these announcements for last year, I think address some of that. >> Let's break some of that down because to your point, it doesn't have to be complex complicated. It shouldn't be. Initially this scatter was, let's do everything we can to ensure that our teams and our people can be productive, can communicate, can collaborate. And now, since this is going to be persistent for quite some time, to your point, let's design for this distributed environment, this hybrid workforce of the future. Talk to me about the, one of the things that Citrix is doing with Citrix workspace, the app personalization, I can imagine as an individual contributor, but also as a team leader, the ability to customize this to the way that I work best is critical. >> And it really is, especially when you know, you have workers, you know, 18 or 19 months worth of new hires that you've never met. They don't really feel like, you know, this is maybe their organization. But if you allow them to shape it a little bit, make it contextual for them. So they don't just come into this cookie cutter digital experience that actually is kind of more meaningful for them. It makes it easier for them to get their job done and things are the way that they want them and where they want them. I think that makes a lot of sense. And so the app personalization announcements is important for remote workers in particular, but all workers to say, hey, can I start tailoring, you know, parts of my employee experience? So they make more sense for me. And I feel like I belong a little bit more. I think it's significant. >> It is. Let's talk about it from a security perspective though. We've seen massive changes in the security landscape in the last year and a half. We've seen some Citrix data that I was looking at, said between 2019 and 2020, ransomware up 435%, malware up 358%. And of course the weakest link being humans. Talk to me from a Citrix workspace perspective about some of the things that they've done to ensure that those security policies can be applied. >> Well, and the part that I really liked about the launchpad announcements around work in terms of security was this much more intelligent analysis. You know, one of the most frustrating things is you're trying to get work done remotely and maybe you're you're in crunch mode and all of a sudden the security system clamps down because they think you're doing something that, you know, you might be sharing information you shouldn't be and now you can't, get your deadline met. I really liked how the analytics inside the new security features really try to make sure they're applying intelligent analysis of behavior. And only when it's clear that a bad actor is in there doing something, then they can restrict access, protect information. And so I have no doubt they'll continue to evolve the product so that it's even even more effective in terms of how it can include or exclude bad actors from doing things inside your system. And so this is the kind of intelligence security increasingly based on AI type technologies that I think that will keep our workers productive, but clamp down on the much higher rate of that activity we see out there. Because we do have so many more endpoints there's a thousand or more times more endpoints in today's organizations because of remote work. >> Right. And one of the things that we've seen with ransomware, I mentioned those numbers that Citrix was sharing. It's gotten so much more personalized, so it's harder and harder to catch these things. One of the things that I found interesting, Dion, that from a secure collaboration perspective, that Citrix is saying is that, you know, we need to go, security needs to go beyond the devices and the endpoints and the apps that an employee is using, which of which we said, there are at least 10 apps that are being used today and it needs to actually be applied at a content level, the content creation level. Talk to me about your thoughts about that. >> I think that's exactly right. So if you know the profile of that worker and the types of things they normally do, and you see unusual behavior that is uncharacteristic to that worker, because you know their patterns, the types of content, the locations of that content that they might normally have access to. And if they're just accessing things, you know, periodically, that's usually not a problem. When they suddenly access a large volume of information and appear to be downloading it, those are the types of issues and especially of content they don't normally use for their work. Then you can intervene and take more intelligent actions as opposed to just trying to limit all content for example. So that knowledge workers can actually get access to all that great information in your IT systems. You can now give them access to it, but when clearly something, something bad is happening, the system automatically does it and steps in. >> I was looking at some of the data with respect to updates to Citrix analytics that it can now auto change permissions on shared files to read only, I think you alluded to this earlier, when it detects that excess sharing is going on. >> And, inappropriate access sharing. So sometimes it's okay for a worker to access, you know, documents. But the big fear is that a bad actor gets access. They get a USB key and they download a bunch of files and they get a whole bunch of IP or important knowledge. Well, when you have a system that's continually monitoring and you know, the unblinking gaze of Citrix security capabilities are looking at the patterns, not just the content alone or just the device alone, but at the, at the usage patterns and saying, I can make this read only because that's clearly the, you know, we don't want them to be able to download this because this activity is completely out of bounds or very unusual. >> Right. One of the things also that Citrix is doing is integrating with Microsoft teams. I was listening to a fun quiz show the other day that said, what were the top two apps downloaded in 2020? And I guessed one of them correctly, Tiktok though. I still don't know how to use it. And the second one was Zoom, and I'm sure Microsoft teams is way up there. I was looking at some stats that said, I think as of the spring of 2020, there were 145 million daily users of Microsoft teams. So that, from a collaboration perspective, something that a lot of folks are dependent on during the pandemic. And now within Teams, I can access Microsoft workspace? Citrix workspace. >> Yes. Well, and it's more significant than it sounds because there's a real hunger to find a center of gravity for the employee experience. What do I put that? Where should they be spending most of their time? Where should I be training them to focus most of their attention? And obviously workers collaborate a lot and Teams as part of Office 365, is a juggernaut? You know, the rise of it during the pandemic has been incredible. And just to show this, I have a digital workplace advisory board. Its companies who are heading, are the farthest along in designing digital employee experiences, and 31% of them said, this January, they're planning on centralizing the employee experience in Teams. Now, if you're a Citrix customer, you have workspace you go, how do I, I don't want to be left out. This announcement allows you to say, you can have the goodness of teams and its capabilities and the power of Citrix workspace, and you have them in one place and really creating a true center of gravity and simplifying and streamlining the employee experience. You don't have this fragmented pieces. Everything's right there in one place, in one pane of glass. And so I like this announcement. It brings Citrix up to parody with a lot of their competitors and actually eclipses several of them as well. So I really like to see this. >> So then from within teams, I can access Citrix workspace. I can share documents with team members and collaborate as well as that kind of the idea. >> Yes. That is the idea, and of course, they'll continue to evolve that, but now you can do your work in Citrix workspace and when documents are involved and you want to bring your team in, they're already right there inside that experience. >> That ability to streamline things, so critical, given the fact that we're still in this distributed environment, I'm sure families are still dealing with some, some amount of remote learning, or there's still distractions from the, do I live at work, do I work from home environment? One of the grips I really felt for when this happened, Dion, was the contact center. I thought these poor people, more people now with shorter and shorter fuses trying to get updates on whatever it was that they were, if they had something ordered and of course all the shipping delays. And the contact center of course went (blowing sound) scattered as well. And we've got people working from home, trying to do their jobs. Talk to me about some of those things that Citrix is doing to enable with Google, those contact center workers to have a good experience so that ultimately the employee experience is good, so is the customer experience? >> The contact center worker has the toughest of all of the different employee profiles I've seen, they have the most they have to learn, the most number of applications. They're typically not highly skilled workers. So they might only just have a, you know, high school education. Yet, they're being asked to cram all of these technologies, each one with a different employee experience, and they don't stay very long as a result of that. You might train them for two months before they're effective and they only stay for six months on average. And so, both businesses really want to be able to streamline onboarding and provisioning a and getting them set up and effective. And they want it too, if you want happy contact center workers making your customers happy and staying around. And so this announcements really allows you to deploy pre-configured Citrix workspaces on, on Chrome OS so that, you know, if you need to field a whole bunch of workers or you have a big dose say you're a relief company and you have a lot of disaster care workers. You can certainly this issue that these devices very easily, they're ready to go with their employee experience and all the right things in place so they can be effective with the least amount of effort. So I guess, it's a big step forward for a worker that is often neglected and underserved. >> Right. Definitely often neglected. And you, you brought up a good point there. And one of the things that, that peaked in my mind, as you talked about, you know, the onboarding experience, the retention, well, these contact center folks are the front lines to the customer. So from a brand reputation perspective, that's on the line, for companies in every industry where people with short fuses are dealing with contact center folks. So the ability to onboard them to give them a much more seamless experience is critical for the brand reputation, customer retention for every industry, I would imagine. >> Absolutely. Especially when you're setting up a contact center or you have a new product launching and you want, you know, you've got to bring, onboard all these new workers, you can do it, and they are going to have the least challenges. They're going to be ready to go right out of the box, be able to receive their package, with their device and their Citrix employee experience, ready to go. You know, just turn the machine on and they're off to the races. And that's the vision and that's the right one. So I was glad to see that as well. >> Yeah. Fantastic. One of the things also that Citrix did, the Citrix workspace app builder, so that Citrix workspace can now be a system of record for certain things like collaboration, surveys, maybe even COVID-19 information, that system of record. Talk to me about why that's so critical for the distributed worker. >> So we've had this, this longstanding challenge in that we've had our systems of record, you know, these are CRM systems, ERP, things like that, which we use to run our business. And then we've had our collaboration tools and they're separate, even though we're collaborating on sales deals and we're collaborating on our supply chain. And so like, the team's announcement was in the same game. We can say, let's close that gap between our systems of record and our collaboration tools. Well, this announcement says, all right, well, we still have these isolated systems of record. How can we streamline them to build and start connecting together a little bit so that we have processes that might cross all of those things, right? It's still going to order comes in from the CRM system. Then you can complete it in the, in the ERP system, you know, ordering that product for them. So they actually get it. You know, and that's probably overkill, that scenario for this particular example. But for example, collecting data from workers saying, let's build some forms and collect some data and then feed it to this process, or this system record. You can do it much more easily than before, before you would have to hire a development team or a contractor to develop another system that would integrate, you know, CRM or ERP or whatever. Now you can do it very quickly inside that builder. First simple, basic applications, and get a lot of the low hanging fruit off your plate and more automated inside of your Citrix workspace. >> And automation has been one of the keys that we've seen to streamlining worker productivity in the last 18 months. Another thing that I was looking at is, you know, the fact that we have so many different apps and we're constantly switching apps, context is constantly changing. Is this sort of system of record going to allow or reduce the amount of context switching that employees have to do? >> Yep. Almost all of these announcements have some flavor to that saying, can we start bringing more systems together in one place? So you're not switching between applications. You don't have different and disconnected sets of data that if you need to, and if they are disconnected, you can connect them, right. That's what the app builder announcement again is about saying, all right, if you're already, always using these three applications to do something, and you're switching between them, maybe you can just build something that connect them into one experience and, you know, maybe a low level of IT person, or even a business user can do that. That's the big trend right now. >> That's so important for that continued productivity, as things will continue to be a little bit unstable, I guess, for awhile. One more thing that I saw that Citrix is announcing is integrations with, Wrike I've been a Wrike user myself. I like to have program project management tools that I can utilize to keep track of projects, but they've done a number of integrations, one of them with Wrike Signature, which I thought was really cool. So for, to secure e-signature within Wrike, based on a program or a project that you're working on. Talk to me about some of the boosts to Wrike that they've done and how you think that's going to be influential in the employee experience. >> Well, first let's just say that the Wrike acquisition was a really important one for Citrix to go above just the basic digital workplace and simple systems of record. This is a really a mass collaboration tool for managing work itself. And so they're, this is taking Citrix up the stack in the more sophisticated work scenarios. And, and when you, we are in more sophisticated work scenarios, you want to be able to pull in different data sets. So, you know, they have the Citrix ShareFile support. You want to be able to bring in really important things like, you know, signing contracts or signing sales deals or mortgage applications, or all sorts of exciting things that actually run in your business. And so, Wrike Signatures, support's really important so that when you have key processes that involve people putting signatures on documents, you can just build collaborative work management flows that, that take all that into account without having to leave the experience. Everything's in one place as much as possible. And this is the big push and we need to have all these different systems. We don't have too many apps. What we have is too many touchpoints, so lets start combining some of these. And so the Wrike integrations, really help you do that. >> Well, and ultimately it seems like what Citrix is doing with the work launchpad series. All the announcements here is really helping workers to work how and where they want to work. Which is very similar to what we say when we're talking about the end user customer experience. When tech companies like Citrix say, we have to meet our customers where they are, it sounds like that's the same thing that's happening here. >> It is. And I would just add on top of that and to make it all safe. So you can bring all these systems together, work from anywhere, and you can feel confident that you're going to do so securely and safely. And it's that whole package I think that's really critical here. >> You're right, I'm glad you brought up that security. All right, Dion take out your crystal ball for me. As we wrap things up, you're saying, you know, going into the future, we're going to be moving from this distributed workforce to this hybrid. What are some of the things that you see as really critical happening in the next six to nine months? >> Well, there's a real push to say, we need to bring in all the workers that we've hired over the last year. Maybe not bringing them in, in person, but can we use these collaborative tools and technologies to bring them, hold them closer so they get to know us. And so, you know, things like, having Microsoft teams integrated right into your Citrix workspace makes it easier for you to collaborate with remote workers and inside any process wherever you are. So whether you're in the office or not, it should bring workers closer, especially those remote ones that are at risk of being left out as they move to hybrid work. And then it's really important. And so the things like the app builder are going to also allow building those connections. And I think that workers and businesses are really going to try and build those bridges, because the number one thing I'm hearing from business leaders and IT leaders is, is it, you know, we're worried about splitting into two different organizations, the ones that are remote and the ones that are in the office and any way that we can bring all of them together in an easy way, in a natural way, situate the digital employee experience so that we really back or back to one company, one common culture, everybody has equal access and equity to the employee experience. That's going to be really important. And I think that Citrix launchpad announcements around work really are a step, a major step in the right direction for that. There's still more things that have to be done and all, all vendors are working on that. But it's nice to see. I really liked what Citrix is doing here to move the ball forward towards where we're all going. >> It is nice to see, and those connections are critically important. I happen to be at an in-person event last week, and several folks had just had been hired during the pandemic and just got to meet some of their teams. So in terms of, of getting that cultural alignment, once again, this is a great step towards that. Dion thank you for joining me on the program, talking about the Citrix launchpad series for work, all the great new things that they're announcing and sharing with us as some of the things that you see coming down the pike. We appreciate your time. >> Thanks Lisa, for having me. >> For Dion Hinchcliffe. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube conversation. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson and we are recapping the Citrix launchpad series. This series presents announcements on LinkedIn live on a variety of subjects, specifically cloud, security, and work. Three topics that I think all of us are keenly aware of going through the last 18 months of the pandemic. Citrix has taken time to sort of regroup and look at ways that security can be improved so that it isn't a hindrance for members of staff, but instead offers a unified integrated way of dealing with security across all of the variety of situations we find ourselves in today. Everything from a mobile device in a cafe through actually working back in the office when we get the opportunity to, to accessing information on a company issued laptop in a home office, secured networks, unsecured networks, secured browsers, unsecured browsers, the permutations are nearly endless. So Citrix has taken an interesting point of view, starting from the perspective of zero trust, meaning everything must be authenticated. They apply contextualism to their strategies. So the context and the posture of the access, the device, the location, all of those matter so that security protocols are tailored to help enhance productivity and security instead of, again, being a hindrance. So I highly recommend you go to the Citrix launchpad site dedicated to security. Two senior Citrix execs, Tim and Joe, will go through great detail on the announcements, but let's recap a little bit from an overview perspective. The first is this idea of secure private access. You combine that with secure internet access, and now you have a package that allows this contextual security posture that can change and adapt based upon varying conditions. Additionally, they have announced a partnership with Google where all of these capabilities are built into the Chrome OS. So now you have a device level native support for these protocols. They're also talking about bot management as something that is critical to security, moving forward. Bots out fishing, you want to kill them. You don't want them getting into your system, but there are some bots that are okay that have poking around in your environment. So again, go into the details with Tim and Joe. Having said that, I am delighted to have a very special guest here. Friend of theCUBE, veteran of theCUBE, author, advisor, author of the book, Cyber Minds and Tech Executive, Shira Rubinoff, is going to join us in just a moment. (upbeat music) Hello, and welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson, and we are recapping the Citrix launchpad series with a focus on the topic of security. Now, whenever we're going to talk security on theCUBE, we have a CUBE veteran and smartest person on cybersecurity that we know, Shira Rubinoff. She's a cybersecurity executive author and advisor, specifically author of the excellent book on the subject, Cyber Minds. Shira, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >> How are you today? >> Doing great, always great to be on theCUBE and talk to you folks and certainly be part of something from Citrix. >> Well, that might be the last pleasant thing that we say, because we are surrounded by security threats. So are you ready to get serious? >> Oh, always with a smile, serious with a smile. >> So, one kind of overriding question that a lot of people have now, if you're an IT executive, you've experienced a complete change in the world from so many different angles, but how has the pandemic changed the way you think of security? What are the dynamics at play, things that are different now that we couldn't have anticipated maybe two or three years ago? >> Interesting question. Certainly, if we look at the scope and the ecosystem of the way that organizations operated, it was pretty much in the high 90% of people being in the office with just the few percentage being working from home. And that had to shift literally overnight to literally the flip side of it, having the multitude of the organization work from home, work remotely, and maybe the few people that had to be in the office were there. So all of a sudden organizations were left with this, how do we secure down our organization? How do we keep our employees safe? How do we keep our organization safe? How do we connect to the outside world? What do we do to maintain the proper cyber? That's call it cyber hygiene within an organization. And that's a topic that I talk about quite frequently. When you look at cybersecurity as a whole, we look at the cyber posture of an organization. We also have to break it down and say, what does an organization need to do to be fully cyber secure? So of course, the ongoing training and that had to shift as well. We have now training for the organization and employees, but also think about the consumers and who else is interacting with organizations. We have to switch how that is done. And that has to be ongoing in the global awareness, the cybersecurity of course is at top of mind. And then that would lead to us to zero trust. Zero trust is a massive, massive piece of cybersecurity need for organizations. We think about it as who needs the data is king. Whoever has the data, they rule the world. They own the organization, they do what they need to do. Zero trust, limited access, knowledge of who gets in, why they get in, the need to get in, and the need for that within organization. So zero trust is a very key component and Citrix is very focused on as well. We talk about updated security and patching and all that has to happen, think about remotely. So not only are we thinking about all these topics, we have to think about them going at warp speed with people that might be working remote, who also have other things they have to take care of. Maybe they're taking care of elderly parents, maybe they're having to watch their kids on zoom, making sure they're staying on zoom, and all sorts of things with school, and other maybe roommates who are working for other organizations, not having important information in the backgrounds of their zoom while they're having these important conversations with organizations. But also think about the multiple devices people are using. They may have an area that's set up properly in order to do their work, but then again, they have to be in another room at the same time. Oh, let me just grab my device. So the whole area of the multiple devices, the warp speed of working and not, let's call this pause. And this is one of the key elements that I would tell all organizations to stop and pause, to think about what you're doing before you do it. Give the headaches, but that was not interplayed when the height of the pandemic. The height of the pandemic, we were worried about what's going on? Need knowledge of information, where we're getting this information, downloading it, clicking on links. Then we're working at the same time, taking care of people. So all these things are happening simultaneously, leaving these open vectors for the tax surface to be that much more heightened for the bad actors to get in. >> So, you advise some of the largest companies in the world on this subject, and obviously you're not going to reveal any names or specifics, but as a general overall view from your perspective, how are we doing right now? Is the average large organization now sort of back on cruise control, having figured everything out for this new reality? On a scale of 1 to 10, how well are we executing against all of these changes? >> That's a great question. Let me talk about the global whole. I think organizations are actually doing really well. I think there was a quick ramp up to figure out how to get it done, but because of also the shift of sharing of information that some of these largest companies across the world, they came together to share information with bad actors, to share information about the tax, to share information about what to do if something happens, who's out there and buying together almost like a whole. So it wasn't each finger on its own. It's a hand as a whole looking at it from a stronger perspective. So I think that shift coupled with the fact of the knowledge and understanding of what companies needed to do in terms of locking down the organization, but also allowing and helping their employees, empowering them to get their work done, but get it done in a secure safe fashion. And I believe now, obviously, we all know, they obviously, but the ransomware attacks are now prevalent and they're becoming even more intense with the rise of 5G, a way that attacks could happen, the warp speed. We're now having to understand that being reactive is not enough, being proactive is something that is wonderful to see organizations are doing as well. It used to be okay, let's be reactive. If something happens, what do we do? Let's have a plan in place. But that's not good enough and we've seen that happen because these attacks are coming a warp speed. So the proactivity of these organizations that they've taken is applaudable in general. I can't talk for all the companies, but the ones that I've been consulting to and have interactions with, I'm pleasantly surprised and not surprised as well, that the way that they've taken their cyber posture so seriously, and where they focus in, not only on the organization as a whole, but their employees as individuals, what their needs are and being able to give them what they need to do their jobs well. >> Yeah, that makes sense. You can almost think of it like cybersecurity is a team sport and to the extent that all of that proactive work that an organization can do can be absolutely undermined if we don't do our parts as endpoints, as endpoint people. And when someone reads Cyber Minds, I think there's an undercurrent that I definitely sensed. And then when I looked more closely into your background, I realized that, yes, in fact, you do have a background in psychology. I want to shift to a question along that line, if you don't mind. Thinking about the psychology of people who have lived through the pandemic, this concept of our personal hygiene and our personal security has been in the forefront of our mind. As you leave the house, and there's hand sanitizer and masks and maybe gloves, we're very, very aware of this. How has that affected us from a cybersecurity team sport perspective? Has that made us better players on the field? What are your thoughts in that regard? >> I actually love that question. As we saw the pandemic heightened, everyone became hyper aware of their own personal, what's called cleanliness. And in terms of where they are, what they're doing, if they're masking, if they're putting on gloves, the sanitizers are everywhere, six feet apart. Everybody's thinking about that. It's a forefront. It became a way of life. And if you then do you shift that and you're saying, okay, let's look at the technology or the cybersecurity part of it, your own personal safety, your own personal cybersecurity. I think we failed a lot in that area. I think because of the fact, if you think about the human psychology and the pieces that people needed to know information, everybody was hungry for the latest and greatest information. What's going on? What are the stats? How many people? Just terrible, terrible pandemic with so many people getting sick. So many people dying and wanting to know, what is going on? what are the latest rule sets? What can I do? What else can I do to protect myself? What is my business doing? So we also had bad actors sending out the phishing attacks, heightened tremendously. There is information being sent out, click here for the latest here. This is Dr. Fauchi, his latest report. Everything going out there was not necessarily to help us, but to hurt us. And because of people's human psychology of thinking, I need to protect myself, so I need the information. The stop and pause is, is this the right information? Is this a safe place to go? But then there's also the other flip side of, if I'm not interacting, I'm not there. Think about the different generational people we have going on. Gen Z, millennials, all sorts of it. Everybody's all over social media. And everybody needs to and wants to have a presence there, certainly in this world. So putting out lots of information and being present was very critical 'cause people weren't in-person anymore. So people were interacting online, whether it being on social, whether it being telling people where they're going, what they're doing, what they're eating, what their favorite animal is, all sorts of things that they were doing. But they were giving over personal information that made have be utilized as passwords or ways to get to know somebody, to either do a spear phishing attack or any types of attacks to gather information to hurt, not just a personal to steal money or to steal someone's identity or to come in and hurt the company, but information was everywhere. So we were taking care of our personal cleanliness, but our cyber hygiene with our psychologies aspect of cybersecurity itself, I think took a big dive. And I think that people started becoming aware as these attack surfaces grew. There were also different types of attacks that were happening where phone calls were coming in and saying, somebody is breaking into your bank account. Just verify yourself, give me the last four digits. I need to know who you are. So playing on the human psyche of fear, somebody is trying to get you nervous. So what are you going to do? You're going to act quickly without thinking. Or all sorts of, I think we were talking earlier about extended warranties for different things. That also grew extensively, but how did they do that? They were gathering information, personal information to give you something you want. So if you're playing again on the human psychology of people, when people get what they want, they're more likely to give over something they may not give to somebody else anyway. And one of my biggest example or a strong example is back in the day with Candy Crush. If you think about that game, before you sign up for that game, you literally have to give over your kidney. You're giving over access to your camera, to your contacts. If you look back at the permissions you are giving, it's really unbelievable that everybody was clicking yes, because they wanted to play a game. So take that example and transfer that into real life. We were doing the same thing. So the importance of brushing up on that personal cyber hygiene and really understanding what people needed to do to heighten their own security themselves, less sharing on social, not giving over information that they shouldn't, not allowing a trusted source who isn't really a trusted source into it. Having strong zero trust, not just organizations, but for yourself was very important. >> Yeah now, did we, Chuck. Chuck's my producer. Did we get Shira's social security number and her date of birth? Shira, can you give us that? >> Sure, it's 555-55-5555. >> Excellent Aha, phishing attack. >> There you go, go for it. (laughs) >> So you think there could be a little bit of security fatigue that might come into play when we're thinking of living up to our responsibilities as those end points? >> I think there was just fatigue in general and people were tired of being locked in the house. People were tired of having everybody under the same roof all the time, 24/7. Trying to get work done, trying to get school done, taking care of people, what they needed to do, having groceries delivered, going into groceries, all the thoughts that they had to do that was just a way of life before that we all took for granted during the pandemic. It was just a whole shift. People were just antsy, jumpy. We needed to connect and we need to connect in any way we could. So all these open vectors became a problem that ended up hurting us rather than helping us. So this has been something that was a big mind shift as a pandemic continued. People started realizing what was going on and organizations took a good stand on educating the population and telling them, look, these are the things that are happening. This is what we need to do. Certainly a lot of the companies I'm working with did such a great job with that. Giving their employees the wherewithal of wanting to connect, but doing in a secure manner. Giving them the tools of what they needed to do personal, only also in their personal lives, not just for their work lives. So that was helpful too. And as we're coming out of it, hopefully continue to come completely out of it, we'll see the shift back into, let's take that stop and pause. Let's think what we're doing. >> Yeah, well, we are all looking back to whatever resemblance of normal we can get to. Shira, I can spend hours picking your brain on a variety of subjects. Unfortunately, we are coming to the end of our time together. Do you promise to come back? >> Certainly, a big fan of theCUBE. >> Well, fantastic. Shira Rubinoff, thank you so much for your time. This is Dave Nicholson with a very special CUBE conversation, signing out. Thanks for watching. >> Shira: Thank you too. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here, remote in Washington, DC, not in Palo Alto, but we're all around the world with theCUBE as we are virtual. We're here recapping the Citrix Launchpad: Cloud (accelerating IT modernization) announcements with CUBE alumni Kevin Jackson, Kevin L. Jackson, CEO of GC Global Net. Kevin, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> No, thank you very much, John. It's always a pleasure to be on theCUBE. >> It's great to have. You always have great insights. But here, we're recapping the event, Citrix Launchpad: Cloud (accelerator IT modernization). And again, we're seeing this theme constantly now, IT modernization, application modernization. People are now seeing clearly what the pandemic has shown us all that there's a lot of projects that need to be up-leveled or kill. There's a lot of things happening and going on. What's your take of what you heard? >> Well, you know, from a general point of view, organizations can no longer put off this digitalization and the modernization of their IT. Many of these projects have been on a shelf waiting for the right time or, you know, the budget to get right. But when the pandemic hit, everyone found themselves in the virtual world. And one of the most difficult things was how do you make decisions in the virtual world when you can't physically be with someone? How do you have a meeting when you can't shake someone's hand? And they all sort of, you know, stared at each other and virtually, of course, to try to figure this out. And they dusted off all of the technologies they had on the shelf that they were, you know, they were told to use years ago, but just didn't feel that it was right. And now it became necessary. It became the way of life. And the thing that really jumped at me yesterday, well, jumped at me with Launchpad, the Launchpad of the cloud is that Citrix honed in on the key issues with this virtual world. I mean, delivering applications, knowing what the internet state is so that you could select the right sources for information and data. And making security holistic. So you didn't have to, it was no longer sort of this bolted on thing. So, I mean, we are in the virtual world to stay. >> You know, good call out there. Honing in was a good way to put it. One quote I heard from Tim (Minahan) was, you know, he said one thing that's become painfully evident is a lot of companies are going through the pandemic and they're experiencing the criticality of the application experience. And he says, "Application experience is the new currency." Okay, so the pandemic, we all kind of know what's going on there. It's highlighting all the needs. But this idea of an application experience is the new currency is a very interesting comment because, I mean, you nailed it. Everyone's working from home. The whole work is shifting. And the applications, they kind of weren't designed to be this way 100%. >> Right, right. You know, the thing about the old IT was that you would build something and you would deploy it and you would use it for a period of time. You know, a year, two years, three years, and then there would be an upgrade. You would upgrade your hardware, you would upgrade your applications, and then you go through the process again, you know? What was it referred to as, it wasn't modernization, but it was refresh. You know, you would refresh everything. Well today, refresh occurs every day. Sometimes two or three times a day. And you don't even know it's occurring. Especially in the application world, right? I think I was looking at something about Chrome, and I think we're at like Chrome 95. It's like Chrome is updated constantly as a regular course of business. So you have to deploy this, understand when it's going to be deployed, and the customers and users, you can't stop their work. So this whole application delivery and security aspect is completely different than before. That's why this, you know, this intent driven solution that Citrix has come up with is so revolutionary. I mean, by being able to know the real business needs and requirements, and then translating them to real policies that can be enforced, you can really, I guess, project the needs, requirement of the organization anywhere in the world immediately with the applications and with this security platform. >> I want to get your reactions to something because that's right on point there, because when we look at the security piece and the applications you see, okay, your mind goes okay, old IT, new IT. Now with cloud, with the pandemic showing that cloud scale matters, a couple themes have come from that used to be inside the ropes concepts. Virtualization, virtual, and automation. Those two concepts are going mainstream because now automation with data and virtual, virtual work, virtual CUBE, I mean, we're doing virtual interviews. Virtualization is coming here. So building on those things. New things are happening around those two concepts. Automation is becoming much more programmable, much more real time, not just repetitive tasks. Virtual is not just doing virtual work from home. It's integrating that virtual experience into other applications. This requires a whole new organizational structure mindset. What's your thoughts on that? >> Well, one of the things is the whole concept of automation. It used to be a nice to have. Something that you could do maybe to improve your particular process, not all of the processes. And then it became the only way of reacting to reality. Humans, it was no longer possible for humans to recognize a need to change and then execute on that change within the allotted time. So that's why automation became a critical element of every business process. And then it expanded that this automated process needed to be connect and interact with that automated process and the age of the API. And then the organization grew from only relying on itself to relying on its ecosystem. Now an organization had to automate their communications, their integration, the transfer of data and information. So automation is key to business and globalization creates that requirement, or magnifies that requirement. >> One of the things we heard in the event was, obviously Citrix has the experience with virtual apps, virtual desktop, all that stuff, we know that. But as the cloud grows in, they're making a direct statement around Citrix is going to add value on top of the cloud services. Because that's the reality of the hybrid, and now soon to be multi-cloud workflows or architectures. How do you see that evolve? Is that something that's being driven by the cloud or the app experience or both? What's your take on that focus of Citrix taking their concepts and leadership to add value on top of the cloud? >> To be honest, I don't like referring to the cloud. It gives an impression that there's only a single cloud and it's the same no matter what. That couldn't be further from the truth. A typical organization will consume services from three to five cloud service providers. And these providers aren't working with each other. Their services are unique, independent. And it's up to the enterprise to determine which applications and how those applications are presented to their employees. So it's the enterprise that's responsible for the employee experience. Integrating data from one cloud service provider to another cloud service provider within this automated business process or multiple business processes. So I see Citrix is really helping the enterprise to continually monitor performance from these independent cloud service provider and to optimize that experience. You know, the things like, where is the application being consumed for? What is the latency today on the internet? What type of throughput do I need from cloud service provider A versus cloud service provider B? All of this is continually changing. So the it's the enterprise that needs to constantly monitor the performance degradation and look at outages and all of that. So I think, you know, Citrix is on point by understanding that there's no single cloud. Hybrid and multi-cloud is the cloud. It's the real world. >> You know, that's a great call. And I think it's naive for enterprises to think that, you know, Microsoft is sitting there saying hmm, let's figure out a way to really work well with AWS. And vice versa, right? I mean, and you got Google, right? They all have their own specialties. I mean, Amazon web service has got great compliance action going on there. Much back stronger than Microsoft. Microsoft's got much deeper legacy and integration to their base, and Google's doing great with developers. So they're all kind of picking their lanes, but they all exist. So the question in the enterprise is what? Do I, how do I deal with that? And again, this is an opportunity for Citrix, right? So this kind of comes down to the single pane of glass (indistinct) always talks about, or how do I manage this new environment that I need to operate in? Because I will want to take advantage of some of the Google goodness and the Azure and the AWS. But now I got my own on premises. Bare metals grow. You're seeing more bare metal deals going down now because the cloud operations has come on premises. >> Yeah, and in fact, that's hybrid IT, right? I always see that there are an enterprise, when enterprise thinks about modernizing or digitally transforming a business process, you have three options, right? You could put it in your own data center. In fact, building a data center and optimizing a data center for a particular process is the cheapest and most efficient way of executing a business process. But it's only way cheaper and efficient if that process is also stable and consistent. I'll say, but some are like that. But you can also do a managed service provider. But that is a distinctly different approach. And the third option is a cloud service provider. So this is a hybrid IT environment. It's not just cloud. It's sort of, you know, it's not smart to think everything's going to go into the cloud. >> It's distributed computing. We see (indistinct). >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, in today's paperless world, don't you still use a pen and paper and pencil? Yes. The right tool for the right job. So it's hybrid IT. Cloud is not always a perfect thing. And that's something that I believe Citrix has looked at. That interface between the enterprise and all of these choices when it comes to delivering applications, delivering the data, integrating that data, and making it secure. >> And I think that's a winning positioning to have this app experience, the currency narrative, because that ultimately is an outcome that you need to win on. And with the cloud and the cloud scale that goes on with all the multiple services now available, the company's business model is app driven, right? That's their application. So I love that, and I love that narrative. Also like this idea of app delivering security. It's kind of in the weeds a little bit, but it highlights this hybrid IT concept you were saying. So I got to ask you as the expert in the industry in this area, you know, as you have intent, what do they call it? Intent driven solution for app delivering security. Self healing, continuous optimization, et cetera, et cetera. The KPIs are changing, right? So I want to get your thoughts on that. Because now, as IT shifts to be much faster, whether it's security teams or IT teams to service that DevOps speed, shifting left everyone talks about, what's the KPIs that are changing? What is the new KPIs that the managers and people can work through as a north star or just tactically? What's your thoughts? >> Well, actually, every KPI has to relate to either the customer experience or the employee experience, and sometimes even more important, your business partner experience. That's the integration of these business processes. And one of the most important aspects that people really don't think about is the API, the application programming interface. You know, you think about software applications and you think about hardware, but how is this hardware deployed? How do you deploy and expand the number of servers based upon more usage from your customer? It's via the API. You manage the customer experience via APIs. You manage your ability to interact with your business partners through the API, their experience. You manage how efficient and effective your employees are through their experience with the IT and the applications through the API. So it's all about that, you know, that experience. Everybody yells customer experience, but it's also your employee experience and your partner experience. So that depends upon this integrated holistic approach to applications and the API security. The web app, the management of bots, and the protection of your APIs. >> Yeah, that really nailed it. I think the position is good. You know, if you can get faster app delivery, keep the security in line, and not bolt it on after the fact and reduce costs, that's a winning formula. And obviously, stitching together the service layer of app and software for all the cloud services is really key. I got to ask you though, Kevin, since you and I have riffed on theCUBE about this before, more importantly now than ever with the pandemic, look at the work edge. People working at home and what's causing the office spaces changing. The entire network architecture. I mean, I was talking to a big enterprise that said, oh yeah, we had, you know, the network for the commercial and the network for dial up now 100% provisioned for everyone at home. The radical change to the structural interface has completely changed the game. What is your view on this? I mean, give us your, where does it go? What happens next? >> So it's not what's next, it's where we are right now. And you need to be able to be, work from anywhere at any time across multiple devices. And on top of that, you have to be able to adapt to constant change in both the devices, the applications, the environment, and a business model. I did a interview with Citrix, actually, from an RV in the middle of a park, right? And it's like, we did video, we did it live. I think it was through LinkedIn live. But I mean, you need to be able to do anything from anywhere. And the enterprise needs to support that business imperative. So I think that's key. It's it's not the future, it's the today. >> I mean, the final question I have for you is, okay, is the frog in the boiling water? At what point does the CIO and the IT leaders, I mean, their minds are probably blown. I can only imagine. The conversations I've been having, it's been, you know, be agile, do it in the cloud, do it at speed, fix the security, programmable infrastructure. What? How fast can I run? This is the management challenge. How are people dealing with this when you talk to them? >> First of all, the IT professional needs to focus on the business needs, the business requirements, the business key performance indicators, not technology, and a business ROI. The CIO has to be right there in the C sweep of understanding what's needed by the business. And there also has to be an expert in being able to translate these business KPIs into IT requirements, all right? And understanding that all of this is going to be within a realm of constant change. So the CIO, the CTO, and the IT professional needs to realize their key deliverable is business performance. >> Kevin, great insight. Loved having you on theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate your time highlighting and recapping the Citrix Launchpad: Cloud announcements. Accelerating IT modernization can't go fast enough. People, they want to go faster. >> Faster, faster, yes. >> So great stuff. Thanks for coming, I appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. I really enjoyed it. >> Okay, it's theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, good day, everybody. John Walls here on theCUBE. We continue our coverage here at Postgres Vision in 2021. Talking today with Andy Harris, who is the Chief Technology Officer at Osirium, a leader in the Privileged Access Management Space, and Andy, good day to you. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. >> Good morning to you and good afternoon, yes. >> That's right. Joining us from overseas over in England, we're on this side of the big pond, but nonetheless, we're joined by the power of Zoom. So again, thanks for the time. Andy, for those who aren't familiar who are watching about Osirium, share a little bit about your various service levels of what you provide, the kind of solutions you provide, and how you've achieved a great success in this space. >> Okay. I know these things, mine will be boring. So I'll just put a little slide up now, which is the minimum I think I can get away with which is that we're all about managing privilege. So that's privileged at the endpoint, Privileged Access Management, and Privileged Process Automation. So wherever a CIS admin has to do something on a machine that needs privilege, we like to be involved. Obviously, we like to be able to delegate all the way down to the business functions with Privileged Process Automation and with the EDB or the BDR part of that functionality in EDB that really fits in to our Privileged Access Management. So what I'll do just to take you away from our product. So I'll just quickly show you a slide of the architecture, which is as simple as we have these nodes. If you like the running ADB BDR and they can perform log-ins to a target device using privileged credentials, which we control when we might be really long up to about 128 characters. >> So Andy, if you would, I think you had put together a little show and tell you a demonstration for how when these systems are perhaps under siege if you will. That there are ways in which obviously you've developed to counter this and to be able to continue secure communications, which in the privilege assets world as you know is paramount. >> Yes, indeed. So I'll show you another slide, which gives you a kind of a overview of everything that's going on and you're going to see a little demonstration of two nodes here that has the BDL technology on and they can make these logins, and we have these characters, Bob and Allison. I've just noticed how it marks in department turn Alice to Allison. they should really be Alice because you get Bob, Alice, Carol, Dave, which are the standard encryption users. And what we're going to do is we're going to demonstrate that you can have breaks in the network. So I'm just sharing the network breaks slide. I'm showing the second network break slide. And then we have this function that we've built which we're going to demonstrate for you today, which is called evil beatings. And what it does is whilst there is a politician in the network, we are going to refresh many thousands of times the credentials on the target device. And then we're going to heal the break in the network and then prove that everything is still working. So right now, I'm going to zoom over to my live connection, terminal connections to the machine. And I'm going to run this command here, which is Python EV3. And I'm going to put a hundred cycles in it which is going to do around about 10,000 password refreshes. Okay. And I'm then going to go over to Chrome, and I should have a system here waiting for me. And in this system, you'll see that I've got the device demo and I've got this come online, SSH. And if I click on this I've got a live connection to this machine. Even whilst I have a huge number of queued up and I'll just show you the queued out connections through the admin interface. The system is working extremely hard at the moment. And in fact, if I show you this slide here, you can see that I have all of these queued credential resets and that is giving our system an awful lot of grief. Yeah. I can go back to the device connection and it is all here still top. Why not? And as you can see, it is all working perfectly. And if I was a user of EDB, I think this has to be one of the demonstrations I'd be interested in because it's one of the first things that we did when we dropped that functionality into our products. We wanted to know how well it would work under extreme conditions because you don't think of extreme conditions as normal working, but whenever you have 10 nodes in different countries, there will always be a network break somewhere and someone will always need to be refreshing passwords a ridiculous rates of knots. So Andy let's talk about this kind of the notion that you're providing here, this about accountability and visibility, audit-ability, all these insights that you're providing through this kind of demonstration you've given us how critical is that today, especially when we know there are so many possible intrusions and so many opportunities with legacy systems and new apps and all of this. I mean talking about those three pillars, if you will, the importance of that and what we just saw in terms of providing that peace of mind that everybody wants in their system. >> That's a cracking question. I'm going to enjoy that question. Legacy systems, that's a really good question. If you, we have NHS, which is our national health service and we have hospitals and you have hospitals every country has hospitals. And the equipment that they use like the MRI scanners, the electro-microscope, some of the blood analysis machines, the systems in those costs multiple Gillions of dollars or should use dollars euros, dollars, pounds and the operating systems running those systems, the lifetime of that piece of equipment is much much longer than the lifetime of an operating system. So we glibly throw around this idea of legacy systems and to a hospital that's a system that's a mere five years old and has got to be delivering for another 15 years. But in reality, all of this stuff gets, acquires vulnerabilities because our adversaries the people that want to do organizations bad things ransomware and all the rest of it they are spending all that time learning about the vulnerabilities of old systems. So the beauty of what we do is being able to take those old legacy systems and put a zero trust safety shell around them, and then use extremely long credentials which can't be cracked. And then we make sure that those credentials don't go anywhere near any workstations. But what they do do, is they're inside that ADB database encrypted with a master encryption key, and they make that jump just inside the zero trust boundary so that Bob and Alice outside can get administration connections inside for them to work. So what we're doing is providing safety for those legacy systems. We are also providing an environment for old apps to run in as well. So we have something called a map server which I didn't think you'd asked us that question. I'd have to find you some slides or presentations, which we want to do. We have a map server, which is effectively a very protected window server, and you can put your old applications on them and you can let them age gracefully and carry on running. Dot net 3.5 and all of those old things. And we can map your connection into the older application and then map those connections out. But in terms of the other aspects of it is the hospital stay open 24 hours a day banks run 24 hours a day and they need to be managed from anywhere. We're in a global pandemic, people are working from home. That means that people are working from laptops and all sorts of things that haven't been provisioned by centrality and could all have all sorts of threats and problems to them. And being able to access any time is really important. And because we are changing the credentials on these machines on a regular basis, you cannot lose one. It's absolutely critical. You cannot go around losing Windows active directory domain credentials it just can't be done. And if you have a situation where you've just updated a password and you've had a failure one of those 10 nodes has the correct set of credentials. And when the system heals, you have to work out which one of the 10 it is and the one that did it last must be the one that updates all the other 10 nodes. And I think the important thing is as Osirium we have the responsibility for doing the updates and we have the responsibility for tracking all those things. But we hand the responsibility of making sure that all the other 10 nodes are up to date which just drop it into bi-directional replication and it just happens. And you've seen it happen. I mean, might be just for the fun of it, We'll go back to that demonstration Chrome, and you can see we're still connected to that machine. That's all still running fine but we could go off to our management thing, refresh it and you see that everything there is successful. I can go to a second machine and I can make a second connection to that device. Yet, in the meantime that password has been changed, Oh, I mean, I wouldn't like to tell you how many times it's been changed. I need to be on a slightly different device. I was going to do a reveal password for you, I'll make another connection but the passwords will be typically, do a top on that just to create some more load. But the passwords will typically be... I'll come back to me. They'll typically be 128 characters long. >> Andy, if I could, I mean, 'cause I think you're really showing this very complex set of challenges that you have these days, right? In terms of providing access to multiple devices across, in multiple networking challenges, when you talk to your prospective clients about the kind of how this security perimeters changed, it's very different now than it was four or five years ago. What are the key points that you want them to take away from your discussion about how they have to think about security and access especially in this day and age when we've even seen here in the States. Some very serious intrusions that I think certainly get everybody's attention. >> That's a great question again. They're all... The way that I would answer that question would definitely depend on the continent that I was talking to. But my favorite answer will be a European answer, so I'll give you a European answer. One of the things that you're doing when you come along and provide Privileged Access Management to a traditional IT team, is your taking away the sysadmins right now, before privilege access, they will know the passwords. They will be keeping the passwords in a password vault or something like this. So they own the passwords, they own the credentials. And when you come along with a product like privilege access management you're taking over management of those credentials and you're protecting those systems from a whole wide range of threats. And one of those threats is from the system administrators themselves. And they understand that. So what I would say, it's an interesting question. 'Cause I'm like, I'm thinking I've got two ways of answering I can answer as if I'm talking to management or as if I'm talking to the people who are actually going to use the products and I feel more aligned with the, I feel more aligned with the actual users. >> Yeah, I think let's just, we'll focus on that and I'll let you know, we just have a moment or two left. So if you could maybe boil it down for me a little bit. >> Boiling it down, I would say now look here CIS admins. It's really important that you get your job done but you need to understand that those privileged accounts that you're using on those systems are absolute gold dust if they get into the hands of your adversaries and you need protections income away from those adversaries, but we trust you and we are going to get you the access to your machines as fast as possible. So we're a little bit like a nightclub bouncer but we're like the Heineken of nightclub bounces. When you arrive, we know it's you and we're going to get you to your favorite machine logged on as domain admin, as fast as possible. And while you're there, we're going to cut that session recording of you. And just keep you safe and on the right side. >> All right, I'm going to enjoy my night in the nightclub. Now I can sleep easy tonight knowing that Andy Harris and Osirium are on the case. Thanks, Andy. Andy Harris speaking with us. So the Chief Technology Officer from Osirium as part of our Postgres vision, 2021, coverage here on theCUBE. (upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with Amanda Silver, corporate vice president, product developer division at Microsoft. Amanda, Great to see you you were on last year, Dr khan. Great to see you again a full year later were remote. Thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy with build happening this week as well. Thanks for making the time to come on the cube for Dr khan. >>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm joining you like many developers around the globe from my personal home office, >>developers really didn't skip a beat during the pandemic and again, it was not a good situation but developers, as you talked about last year on the front lines, first responders to creating value quite frankly, looking back you were pretty accurate in your prediction, developers did have an impact this year. They did create the kind of change that really changed the game for people's lives, whether it was developing solutions from a medical standpoint or even keeping systems running from call centres to making sure people got their their their goods or services and checks and and and kept sanity together. So. >>Yeah absolutely. I mean I think I think developers you know get the M. V. P. Award for this year because you know at the end of the day they are the digital first responders to the first responders and the pivot that we've had to make over the past year in terms of supporting remote telehealth, supporting you know online retail, curbside pickup. All of these things were done through developers being the ones pushing the way forward remote learning. You know my kids are learning at home right behind me right now so you might hear them during the interview that's happening because developers made that happen. >>I don't think mom please stop hogging the band with, they've got a gigabit. Stop it. Don't be streaming. My kids are all game anyway, Hey, great to have you on and you have to get the great keynote, exciting to see you guys continue the collaboration with Docker uh with GIT hub and Microsoft, A great combination, it's a 123 power punch of value. You guys are really kind of killing it. We heard from scott and dan has been on the cube. What's your thoughts on the partnership with the developer division team at Microsoft with Doctor, What's it all about this year? What's the next level? >>Well, I mean, I think, I think what's really awesome about this partnership is that we all have, we all are basically sharing a common mission. What we want to do is make sure that we're empowering developers, that we're focused on their productivity and that we're delivering value to them so they can do their job better so that they can help others. So that's really kind of what drives us day in and day out. So what we focus on is developer productivity. And I think that's a lot of what dana was talking about in her session, the developer division. Specifically, we really try to make sure that we're improving the state of the art from modern developers. So we want to make sure that every keystroke that they take, every mouse move that they make, it sounds like a song but every every one of those matter because we want to make sure that every developers writing the code that only they can write and in terms of the partnership and how that's going. You know my team and the darker team have been collaborating a ton on things like dr desktop and the Doctor Cli tool integrations. And one of the things that we do is we think about pain points and various workflows. We want to make sure that we're shaving off the edges of all of the user experience is the developers have to go through to piece all of these applications together. So one of the big pain points that we have heard from developers is that signing into the Azure cloud and especially our sovereign clouds was challenging. So we contributed back to uh back to doctor to actually make it easier to sign into these clouds. And so dr developers can now use dr desktop and the Doctor Cli to actually change the doctor context so that its Azure. So that makes it a lot easier to connect the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just >>going to say, I love the reference of the police song. Every breath you take, every >>mouth moving. Great, >>great line there. Uh, but I want to ask you while you're on this modern cloud um, discussion, what is I mean we have a lot of developers here at dr khan. As you know, you guys know developers in your ecosystem in core competency. From Microsoft, Kublai khan is a very operator like focus developed. This is a developer conference. You guys have build, what is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? Could you just share your thoughts because this comes up a lot. You know, what's through the art? What's next jan new guard guard? It's his legacy. What is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? >>Fantastic question. And extraordinarily relevant to this particular conference. You know what I think about often times it's really what is the inner loop and the outer loop look like in terms of cycle times? Because at the end of the day, what matters is the time that it takes for you to make that code change, to be able to see it in your test environment and to be able to deploy it to production and have the confidence that it's delivering the feature set that you need it to. And it's, you know, it's secure, it's reliable, it's performance, that's what a developer cares about at the end of the day. Um, at the same time, we also need to make sure that we're growing our team to meet our demand, which means we're constantly on boarding new developers. And so what I take inspiration from our, some of the tech elite who have been able to invest significant amounts in, in tuning their engineering systems, they've been able to make it so that a new developer can join a team in just a couple of minutes or less that they can actually make a code change, see that be reflected in their application in just a few seconds and deploy with confidence within hours. And so our goal is to actually be able to take that state of the art metric and democratize that actually bring it to as many of our customers as we possibly can. >>You mentioned supply chain earlier in securing that. What are you guys doing with Docker and how to make that partnership better with registries? Is there any update there in terms of the container registry on Azure? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we we have definitely seen recent events and and it almost seems like a never ending attacks that that you know, increasingly are getting more and more focused on developer watering holes is how we think about it. Kind of developers being a primary target um for these malicious hackers. And so what it's more important than ever that every developer um and Microsoft especially uh really take security extraordinarily seriously. Our engineers are working around the clock to make sure that we are responding to every security incident that we hear about and partnering with our customers to make sure that we're supporting them as well. One of the things that we announced earlier this week at Microsoft build is that we've actually taken, get have actions and we've now integrated that into the Azure Security Center. And so what this means is that, you know, we can now do things like scan for vulnerabilities. Um look at things like who is logging in, where things like that and actually have that be tracked in the Azure security center so that not just your developers get that notification but also your I. T. Operations. Um In terms of the partnership with dR you know, this is actually an ongoing partnership to make sure that we can provide more guidance to developers to make sure that they are following best practices like pulling from a private registry like Docker hub or at your container registry. So I expect that as time goes on will continue to more in partnership in this space >>and that's going to give a lot of confidence. Actually, productivity wise is going to be a big help for developers. Great stuff is always good, good progress. They're moving the needle. >>Last time we >>spoke we talked about tools and setting Azure as the doctor context duty tooling updates here at dot com this year. That's notable. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one major thing that we've been working on which has a big dependency on docker is get help. Code space is now one of the biggest pain points that developers have is setting up a new DEV box, which they often have to do when they are on boarding a new employee or when they're starting a new project or even if they're just kicking the tires on a new technology that they want to be able to evaluate and sometimes creating a developer environment can actually take hours um and especially when you're trying to create a developer environment that matches somebody else's developer environment that can take like a half a day and you can spend all of your time just debugging the differences in environment variables, for example, um, containers actually makes that much easier. So what you can do with this, this services, you can actually create death environment spun up in the cloud and you can access it in seconds and you get from there are working coding environment and a runtime environment and this is repeatable via containers. So it means that there's no inadvertent differences introduced by each DEV. And you might be interested to know that underneath this is actually using Docker files and dr composed to orchestrate the debits and the runtime bits for a whole bunch of different stacks. And so this is something that we're actually working on in collaboration with the with the doctor team to have a common the animal format. And in fact this week we actually introduced a couple of app templates so that everybody can see this all in action. So if you check out a ca dot m s forward slash app template, you can see this in action yourself. >>You guys have always had such a strong developer community and one thing I love about cloud as it brings more agility, as we always talk about. But when you start to see the enterprise grow into, the direction is going now, it's almost like the developer communities are emerging, it's no longer about all the Lennox folks here and the dot net folks there, you've got windows, you've got cloud, >>it's almost >>the the the solidification of everyone kind of coming together. Um and visual studio, for instance, last year, I think you were talking about that to having to be interrogated dr composed, et cetera. >>How do you see >>this melting pot emerging? Because at the end of the day, you pick the language you love and you got devops, which is infrastructure as code doesn't matter. So give us your take on where we are with that whole progress of of making that happen. >>Well, I mean I definitely think that, you know, developer environments and and kind of, you know, our approach to them don't need to be as dogmatic as they've been in the past. I really think that, you know, you can pick the right tool and language and stand developer stack for your team, for your experience and you can be productive and that's really our goal. And Microsoft is to make sure that we have tools for every developer and every team so that they can build any app that they want to want to create. Even if that means that they're actually going to end up ultimately deploying that not to our cloud, they're going to end up deploying it to AWS or another another competitive cloud. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been doing to make that really much easier. We have integrated container tools in visual studio and visual studio code and better cli integrations like with the doctor context that we had talked about a little bit earlier. We continue to try to make it easier to build applications that are targeting containers and then once you create those containers it's much easier to take it to another environment. One of the examples of this kind of work is now that we have WsL and the Windows subsystem for Lennox. This makes it a lot easier for developers who prefer a Windows operating system as their environment and maybe some tools like Visual Studio that run on Windows, but they can still target Lennox with as their production environment without any impedance mismatch. They can actually be as productive as they would be if they had a Linux box as their Os >>I noticed on this session, I got to call this out. I want to get your reaction to it interesting. Selection of Microsoft talks, the container based development. Visual studio code is one that's where you're going to show some some some container action going on with note and Visual Studio code. And then you get the machine learning with Azure uh containers in the V. S. Code. Interesting how you got, you know, containers with V. S. And now you've got machine learning. What does that tell the world about where Microsoft's at? Because in a way you got the cutting edge container management on one side with the doctor integration. Now you get the machine learning which everyone's talking about shifting, left more automation. Why are these sessions so important? Why should people attend? And what's the what's the bottom line? >>Well, like I said, like containers basically empower developer productivity. Um that's what creates the reputable environments, that's what allows us to make sure that, you know, we're productive as soon as we possibly can be with any text act that we want to be able to target. Um and so that's kind of almost the ecosystem play. Um it's how every developer can contribute to the success of others and we can amor ties the kinds of work that we do to set up an environment. So that's what I would say about the container based development that we're doing with both visual studio and visual studio code. Um in terms of the machine learning development, uh you know, the number of machine learning developers in the world is relatively small, but it's growing and it's obviously a very important set of developers because to train a machine learning uh to train an ml model, it actually requires a significant amount of compute resources, and so that's a perfect opportunity to bring in the research that are in a public cloud. Um What's actually really interesting about that particular develop developer stack is that it commonly runs on things like python. And for those of you who have developed in python, you know, just how difficult it is to actually set up a python environment with the right interpreter, with the right run time, with the right libraries that can actually get going super quickly, um and you can be productive as a developer. And so it's actually one of the hardest, most challenging developer stacks to actually set up. And so this allows you to become a machine learning developer without having to spend all of your time just setting up the python runtime environment. >>Yeah, it's a nice, nice little call out on python, it's a double edged sword. It's easier to sling code around on one hand, when you start getting working then you gotta it gets complicated can get well. Um Well the great, great call out there on the island, but good, good, good project. Let me get your thoughts on this other tool that you guys are talking about project tie. Uh This is interesting because this is a trend that we're seeing a lot of conversations here on the cube about around more too many control planes. Too many services. You know, I no longer have that monolithic application. I got micro micro applications with microservices. What the hell is going on with my services? >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, containers brought an incredible amount of productivity in terms of having repeatable environments, both for dev environments, which we talked about a lot on this interview already, but also obviously in production and test environments. Super important. Um and with that a lot of times comes the microservices architecture that we're also moving to and the way that I view it is the microservices architecture is actually accompanied by businesses being more focused on the value that they can actually deliver to customers. And so they're trying to kind of create separations of concerns in terms of the different services that they're offering, so they can actually version and and kind of, you know, actually improve each of these services independently. But what happens when you start to have many microservices working together in a SAS or in some kind of aggregate um service environment or kind of application environment is it starts to get unwieldy, it's really hard to make it so that one micro service can actually address another micro service. They can pass information back and forth. And you know what used to be maybe easy if you were just building a client server application because, you know, within the server tear all of your code was basically contained in the same runtime environment. That's no longer the case when every microservices actually running inside of its own container. So the question is, how can we improve program ability by making it easier for one micro service that's being used in an application environment, be to be able to access another another service and kind of all of that context. Um and so, you know, you want to be able to access the service is the the api endpoint, the containers, the ingress is everything, make everything work together as though it felt just as easy as as um you know, server application development. Um And so what this means as well is that you also oftentimes need to get all of these different containers running at the same time and that can actually be a challenge in the developer and test loop as well. So what project tie does is it improves the program ability and it actually allows you to just write a command like thai run so that you can actually in stan she ate all of these containers and get them up and running and basically deploy and run your application in that environment and ultimately make the dev testing or loop much faster >>than productivity gain. Right. They're making it simple to stand up. Great, great stuff. Let me ask you a question as we kind of wrap down here for the folks here at Dakar Con, are >>there any >>special things you'd like to talk about the development you think are important for the developers here within this space? It's very dynamic. A lot of change happening in a good way. Um, but >>sometimes it's hard to keep >>track of all the cool stuff happening. Could you take a minute to, to share your thoughts on what you think are the most important develops developments in this space? That that might be interesting to ducker con attendees. >>I think the most important things are to recognize that developer environments are moving to containerized uh, environments themselves so that they can be repeated, they can be shared, the work, configuring them can be amortized across many developers. That's important thing. Number one important thing. Number two is it doesn't matter as much what operating system you're running as your chrome, you know, desktop. What matters is ultimately the production environment that you're targeting. And so I think now we're in a world where all of those things can be mixed and matched together. Um and then I think the next thing is how can we actually improve microservices, uh programming development together um so that it's easier to be able to target multiple micro services that are working in aggregate uh to create a single service experience or a single application. And how do we improve the program ability for that? >>You know, you guys have been great supporters of DACA and the community and open source and software developers as they transform and become quite frankly the superheroes for the transformation, which is re factoring businesses. So this has been a big thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on how this is all coming together inside Microsoft, you've got your division, you get the developer division, you got GIT hub, got Azure. Um, and then just historically, and he put this up last year army of an ecosystem. People who have been contributing encoding with Microsoft and the partners for many, many decades. >>Yes. The >>heart Microsoft now, how's it all working? What's the news? I get Lincoln, Lincoln, but there's no yet developer model there yet, but probably is soon. >>Um Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty broad question, but in some ways I think it's interesting to put it in the context of Microsoft's history. You know, I think when I think back to the beginning of my career, it was kind of a one stack shop, you know, we was all about dot net and you know, of course we want to dot net to be the best developer environment that it can possibly be. We still actually want that. We still want that need to be the most productive developer environment. It could we could possibly build. Um but at the same time, I think we have to recognize that not all developers or dot net developers and we want to make sure that Azure is the most productive cloud for developers and so to do that, we have to make sure that we're building fantastic tools and platforms to host java applications, javascript applications, no Js applications, python applications, all of those things, you know, all of these developers in the world, we want to make sure it can be productive on our tools and our platforms and so, you know, I think that's really kind of the key of you know what you're speaking of because you know, when I think about the partnership that I have with the GIT hub team or with the Azure team or with the Azure Machine learning team or the Lincoln team, um A lot of it actually comes down to helping empower developers, improving their productivity, helping them find new developers to collaborate with, um making sure that they can do that securely and confidently and they can basically respond to their customers as quickly as they possibly can. Um and when, when we think about partnering inside of Microsoft with folks like linkedin or office as an example, a lot of our partnership with them actually comes down to improving their colleagues efficiency. We build the developer tools that office and lengthen are built on top of and so every once in a while we will make an improvement that has, you know, 5% here, 3% there and it turns into an incredible amount of impact in terms of operations, costs for running these services. >>It's interesting. You mentioned earlier, I think there's a time now we're living in a time where you don't have to be dogmatic anymore, you can pick what you like and go with it. Also that you also mentioned just now this idea of distributed applications, distributed computing. You know, distributed applications and microservices go really well together. Especially with doctor. >>Can you share >>your thoughts on the framework that you guys released called Dapper? >>Yeah, yeah. We recently released Dapper. It's called D A P R. You can look it up on GIT hub and it's a programming model for common microservices pattern, two common microservices patterns that make it really easy and automatic to create those kinds of microservices. So you can choose to work with your favorite state stores or databases or pub sub components and get things like cloud events for free. You can choose either http or g R B C so that you can get mesh capabilities like service discovery and re tries and you can bring your own secret store and easily be able to call it from any environment variable. It's also like I was talking about earlier, multi lingual. Um so you don't need to embrace dot net, for example, as you're programming language to be able to benefit from Dapper, it actually supports many programming languages and Dapper itself is actually written and go. Um and so, you know, all developers can benefit from something like Dapper to make it easier to create microservices applications. >>I mean, always great to have you on great update. Take a minute to give an update on what's going on with your division. I know you had to build conference this week. V. S has got the new preview title. We just talked about what are the things you want to get to plug in for? Take a minute to get to plug in for what you're working on, your goals, your objectives hiring, give us the update. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we we built integrated container tools in visual studio uh and the Doctor extension and Visual Studio code and cli extensions. Uh and you know, even in this most recent release of our Visual Studio product, Visual Studio 16 10, we added some features to make it easier to use DR composed better. So one of the examples of this is that you can actually have uh Oftentimes you need to be able to use multiple doctor composed files together so that you can actually configure various different container environments for a single single application. But it's hard sometimes to create the right Yeah. My file so that you can actually invoke it and invoke the the container and the micro services that you need. And so what this allows you to do is to actually have just a menu of the different doctor composed files so that you can select the runtime and test environment that you need for the subset of the portion of the application that you're working on at the end of the day. This is always about developer productivity. You know, like I said, every keystroke matters. Um and we want to make sure that you as a developer can focus on the code that only you can Right. >>Amanda Silver, corporate vice president product development division of Microsoft. Always great to see you and chat with you remotely soon. We'll be back in in real life with real events soon as we come out of the pandemic and thanks for sharing your insight and congratulations on your success this year and and congratulations on your announcement here at Dakar Gone. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>Okay Cube coverage for Dunkirk on 2021. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm

(introductory upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this Cube conversation. I'm Natalie Ehrlich your host for theCube. Today we're going to speak with an AI enhancing data startup that recently raised $75 million in C-series funding. Now we're joined by the chief marketing officer of Exosporium Ajay Khanna. [Natalie] Thank you so much for being with us today. >> Thank you so much, Natalie. Thanks for inviting me in. >> So tell us what is Exosporium. >> Sure. So Exosporium, we provide external data platform and this platform helps you discover thousands of relevant data signals external data signals that you can then use in your analytics or in your machine learning models and all. So what we are offering here is this a unique end to end platform where you can have access to thousands and thousands of data signals. And then you can take those signals and match it with your internal data. You can enrich your internal data, do the transformations and then build pipelines that business analysts can use and take it to their, their tool of their choice. Or what data scientists can do is take that enriched data and improve their ML algorithms. So that is the end-to-end platform that we provide. >> That's really fascinating. So you're constantly improving on the data and providing better analytics. Can you tell us how specifically are you helping your customers? >> Ajay: Absolutely. So as we kind of jump into the customer use cases let's first discuss this challenge with the external data, right? So when we refer to external data with the increase in AI and ML adoption there has been increase in interest in external data like getting the company data from external sources whether it is formal graphics, technographic data, you want socio-economic data, you may want like foot traffic data. You may want to include like data about website visits and, and the tons of data out there website interaction that are not within your organization but you want to get that data to get better understanding of your customers. But the challenge is that getting external data is really hard. So, and what I mean by that is that it is hard to access. First of all you don't even know how many data sources out there. It could be thousands of data sources. If you just go to data.gov there are like 250,000 data sources out there. So that is the first problem to tackle is where do I get the data from? And how do I get? And even before that what is the data that is going to impact my business? So having that issue of like data access is, is big problem. Second thing is that once you know which data you want to get it is very hard to use within your systems, or it is hard to kind of like you're going to just directly use the data into your analytics or into machine learning. You have to clean it up. You have to evaluate the quality of the data. You have to do the proper alignment and matching and integration and so on and so forth. And by various estimates like data scientists and analysts spend 80% of their time doing just that job. And the third is around the, compliance issues. We want to make sure that data is compliant with the GDPR or CCPA kind of regulations. So what we are helping our customers do is have an easy access to all these relevant data sources and where the system can recommend that, okay this is the relevant data which is going to make an impact to your business. This is the relevant data, which is going to make your ML and analytics better, and then match that data with your internal data sources automatically so that you can focus on the business value that you want to generate and take that data... Once you understand the impact of the data take it to your actual business use cases of the models that you have created. So our customers are in like various kind of industries, right? They are in CPG, they are in retail. Our customers are coming from various FinTech organizations like payments and lending and insurance. And they are using us for like various use cases. Like whether it is lead gen or whether it is a lead enrichment fraud and risk kind of use cases understanding the loan risk loan application risks and the by having access to these additional data sources that helps them make better decisions about their customers, about their business. >> Natalie: Fascinating. Well tell us, how do you see this market evolving? >> Market is, is, is really dynamic. And we have seen this whole market changing the whole data market, kind of like changing in, last year and a half with the pandemic coming in, right? So the models that we were working on for credit risk for evaluating loan applications were not working anymore. The data that we had was not really usable to make those decisions. So many of our customers, they had to depend on external data to make those credit decisions, right? I mean, if I have to approve an application for a small or a medium business restaurant and the restaurant is closed for last to five months how do I do that? So they were looking for additional data sources like foot traffic data about the Yelp reviews or about the ratings around how they're signed up for various delivery services and use those alternative sources to make those decisions. I think with these kind of like, as the situation come in, companies will become much more agile to react to these kinds of either data losses or changes in the data that they need. And some of the things that we also see right now is where Google is stopping the third party cookies with Chrome, right? Or Apple saying that with iOS 14, there are new transparency requirements that you have to, you have to abide by. So if those signals are gone, then how do companies better understand their customers? How do the companies will redesign their information, that they are delivering to their customers or the products that they are presenting to their customers. So having that agility will be determining the competitive advantage for these companies. And once these data signal losses happen, you cannot start evaluating the alternate data at that point in time because it takes like six, seven months to going to find the data sources and negotiate for those data sources bring them on board and then integrate them to kind of start using them. Then it is already too late. So what we are seeing is that companies will be much more agile and looking for a lot of external data sources to bring them in seamlessly and be able to make their business decision by incorporating those data sources as well. So, so that's how we are seeing that the use of external data is going to, going to increase with the time. >> Fascinating. And also that you mentioned the pandemic and the company added new data signals to help organizations understand risk. >> Ajay: Absolutely. Can you explain how that actually works to our audience? >> Ajay: Sure. So let's take a couple of scenarios, right? So for example, there is a lending organization and then they are looking for approving a loan application for a small medium business. And they had like three years back revenues or three years previous employee data or their tax returns and everything. But that is irrelevant right now because the business is not running. So how can they use alternate data signals to make that loan decisions or credit decisions? So they will be relying on some of like foot traffic data. They may rely on ratings and reviews. They may rely on, on other delivery services subscription that they have subscribed to and helping their customers, and then use those additional signals to make those credit decisions. This is like one situation. Another situation that we came across was in, CPG where food and beverages, sellers, whether those are like convenience stores or whether those are like small restaurants they're going in and out of business. And now when they're coming back in or the new restaurants or convenience stores are emerging, how do this food and beverage provider find those new customers? What are the additional signals they can use to go to that customer right away and say that, okay we are there with you. We are here to kind of like support your business. What are the additional things that you need to kind of like bring everything back to business? What are the additional shelf spaces available to place your product out there? Because now you don't have data, there's a data lag now. So you need to kind of like provide that additional data to your field operations so that they can find the right businesses. They can find they can prioritize them and they can see that, okay these are the businesses which are going to kind of like come back and we need to proactively go and market to them. So that once we are out of this COVID which hopefully we are now and how to support the small businesses that come come right back on track. >> Very, very interesting. And recently your company Exosporium closed $75 million in seed series funding and not even a year before another $31 million. So what do you attribute to that success? >> I think it is, it is the whole idea of a increase in adoption of AI and ML that we are seeing in the last few years. And as this adoption increases there is an increase in appetite for external data. So companies do realize that just having ML algorithms is not enough. That is not a competitive advantage. Everybody has the same algorithms. The advantage is the data that you have, advantages the domain expertise that you have, and then having the wide variety of data that is really important. So what we are seeing is that there is an increase in trust and getting access to these external data sources as a competitive advantage and then having that access easily and being able to easily use that external data into your analytics, into your ML models. That's where the, the real kind of advantages where you can actually bring your big ideas to life and execute on those ideas, but are coming from your business analysts and from your data scientists. So I think that increased interest is what we are seeing here. >> Well, that's a fascinating point on how data is really the central point of analytics. Really appreciate your fantastic insights on this program for this conversation on theCUBE. I'm Natalie Ehrlich your host. And that was Ajay Khanna the chief marketing officer of Exosporium. Thanks so much for joining us today. 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from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante the convenience of online access to bank accounts payment apps crypto exchanges and other transaction systems has created enormous risks which the vast majority of individuals either choose to ignore or simply don't understand the internet has become the new private network and unfortunately it's not so private apis scripts spoofing insider crime sloppy security hygiene by users and much more all increase our risks the convenience of cloud-based services in many respects exacerbates the problem but software built in the cloud is a big part of the solution hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll try to raise awareness about a growing threat to your liquid assets and hopefully inspire you to do some research and take actions to lower the probability of you losing thousands hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars let's go back to 2019 in an event that should have forced us to act but for most of us didn't in september of that year jack dorsey's twitter twitter account was hacked the hackers took over his account and posted racial slurs and other bizarre comments before twitter could regain control of the account and assure us that this wasn't a system-wide attack most concerning however was the manner in which the attackers got a hold of dorsey's twitter account they used an increasingly common and relatively easy to execute technique referred to as a sim hijack or a sim swap the approach allows cyber thieves to take control of a victim's phone number now they often will target high-profile individuals like ceos and celebrities to embarrass or harass them but increasingly they're going after people's money of course now just in the past month we've seen a spate of attacks where individuals have lost cash it's a serious problem of increasing frequency so let's talk a little bit about how it works now some of you are familiar with this technique but most people that we talk to either aren't aware of it or aren't concerned you should be in a sim hack like this one documented on medium in may of 2019 four months prior to the dorsey attack the hackers who have many of your credentials that have likely been posted on the dark web they have your email they have your frequently used passwords your phone number your address your mother's maiden name name of your favorite pet and so forth they go in and they spoof a mobile phone carrier rep into thinking that it's you and they convince the agent that they've switched phones or have some other ruse to get a new sim card sent to them or they pay insiders at the phone carrier to steal sim card details hey 100 bucks a card big money now once in possession of the sim card info the attacker now can receive sms messages as part of two-factor authentication systems that are often used to verify identity they can't use face id on mobile but what they can do is go into your web account and change the password or other information the website then sends an sms and now the attacker has the code and is in then the individual can lock you out and steal your money before you even know what hit you all right so what can you do about it first there's no system that is hack proof if the bad guys want to get you and the value is high enough they will get you but that's the key roi what's roi simply put it's a measure of return derived from dividing the value stolen by the cost of getting that value it's benefit divided by cost so a good way to dissuade a criminal is to increase the denominator if you make it harder to steal the value goes down the roi is less here's a layered system shared by jason floyer the son of our very own david floyer smart dna there so we appreciate his contribution to the cube the system involves three layers of protection first you got to think about all the high value online systems that you have here are just a few you got bank accounts you have investment accounts you might have betting sites that has cash in it e-commerce sites and so forth now many of these sites if not most will use sms-based two-factor authentication to identify you now that exposes you to the sim hack the system that jason proposes let's start in the middle of this chart the first thing is you got to acknowledge that the logins that you're using to access your critical systems are already public so the first thing you do is to get a in quotes secure email in other words one that no one knows about and isn't on the dark web find a provider that you trust maybe the one maybe one that doesn't sell ads but that look that's your call or maybe go out and buy a domain and create a private email address now the second step is to use a password manager now for those who don't know what that is you're probably already using one that comes with your chrome browser for example and it remembers your passwords and autofills them now if you on your iphone if you're an iphone user go to settings passwords and security recommendations or if you're on an android phone open your chrome app and go to settings passwords check passwords you're likely to see a number of recommendations as in dozens or maybe even hundreds that have been compromised reuse passwords and or or are the subject of a data breach so a password manager is a single cloud-based layer that works on your laptop and your mobile phone and allows you to largely automate the creation management and maintenance of your online credentials now the third layer here involves an external cloud-based or sometimes app-based two-factor authentication system that doesn't use sms one that essentially turns your phone into a hardware authentication device much like an external device that you would use like a yubikey now that's also a really good idea to use as that third layer that hardware fob so the system basically brings together all your passwords under one roof under one system with some layers that lower the probability of your money getting stolen again it doesn't go to zero percent but it's dramatically better than the protection that most people have here's another view of that system and this venn the password manager in the middle manages everything and yes there's a concern that all your passwords are in one place but once set up it's more secure than what you're likely doing today we'll explain that and it'll make your life a lot easier the key to this system is there's there's a single password that you have to remember for the password manager and it takes care of everything else now for many password managers you can also add a non-sms based third-party two-factor authentication capability we'll come back and talk about that in a moment so the mobile phone here uses facial recognition if it's enabled so it would require somebody they had either have you at gunpoint to use your phone and to stick it in front of your face to get into your accounts or you know eventually they'll become experts at deep fakes that's probably something we're going to have to contend with down the road so it's the desktop or laptop via web access that is of the greatest concern in this use case this is where the non-sms-based third-party two-factor authentication comes into play it's installed on your phone and if somebody comes into your account from an unauthorized device it forces a two-factor authentication not using sms but using a third-party app as you guessed it is running in the cloud this is where the cloud creates this problem but it's also here to help solve this problem but the key is this app it generates a verification code that changes on your phone every 20 seconds and you can't get into the website without entering that auto generated code well normal people can't get in there's probably some other back door if they really want to get you but i think you see that this is a better system than what 99 of the people have today but there's more to the story so just as with enterprise tech and dealing with the problem of ransomware air gaps are an essential tool in com combating our personal cyber crime so we've added a couple of items to jason's slide so the this air gap and the secure password notion what you want to do is make sure that that password manager is strong and it's easy for you to remember it's never used anywhere except for the password manager which also uses the secure email now if you've set up a non s if you've set up a two factor authentication sms or otherwise you're even more protected non-sms is better for the reasons we've described now for your crypto if you got a lot first of all get out of coinbase not only does coinbase gouge you on transaction costs but we'd recommend storing a good chunk of your crypto in an air-gapped vault now what you want to do is you want to make a few copies of this critical information you want to keep your secure password on you in one spot or memorize it but maybe keep a copy in your wallet your physical wallet and put the rest in a fireproof filing cabinet and a safety deposit box and or fire proof lock a lock box or a book in your library but but have multiple copies that somebody has to get to in order to hack you and you want to put also all your recovery codes so when you set all this up you're going to get recovery codes for the password manager in your crypto wallets that you own yeah it gets complicated and it's a pain but imagine having 30 percent or more of your liquid assets stolen now look we've really just scratched the surface here and you you're going to have to do some research and talk to people who have set this stuff up to get it right so figure out your secure email provider and then focus on the password manager now just google it and take your time deciding which one is the best for you here's a sample there are many some are free you know the better ones are for pay but carve out a full day to do research and set up your system take your time and think about how you use it before pulling the trigger on these tools and document everything offline air gap it now the other tooling that you want to use is the non-sms based third-party authentication app so in case you get sim hacked you've got further protection this turns your phone into a secure token generator without using sms unfortunately it's even more complicated because not only are there a lot of tools but not all your financial systems and apps we will support the same two-factor authentication app your password manager for example might only support duo your crypto exchange might support authy but your bank might only support symantec vip or it forces you to have a key fob or use sms so it's it's a mishmash so you may need to use multiple authentication apps to protect your liquid assets yeah i'm sorry but the consequences of not protecting your money and identity are worth the effort okay well i know there's a deviation from our normal enterprise tech discussions but look we're all the cios of our respective home i.t we're the network admin the storage admin the tech support help desk and we're the chief information security officer so as individuals we can only imagine the challenges of securing the enterprise and one of the things we talk about a lot in the cyber security space is complexity and fragmentation it's just the way it is now here's a chart from etr that we use frequently which lays out the security players in the etr data set on two dimensions net score or spending velocity in the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness within the data set on the horizontal now for change i'm not going to elaborate on any of the specific vendors today you've seen a lot of this before but the chart underscores the complexity and fragmentation of this market and this is just really literally one tiny subset but the cloud which i said at the outset is a big reason that we got into this problem holds a key to solving it now here's one example listen to this clip of dave hatfield the longtime industry exec he's formerly an executive with pure storage he's now the ceo of laceworks lace work a very well-funded cloud-based security company that in our view is attacking one of the biggest problems in security and that's the fragmentation issue that we've often discussed take a listen so at the core of what we do you know you know it's um it's really trying to merge when we look at we look at security as a data problem security and compliance is the data problem and when you apply that to the cloud it's a massive data problem you know you literally have trillions of data points you know across shared infrastructure that we you need to be able to ingest and capture uh and then you need to be able to process efficiently and provide context back to the end user and so we approached it very differently than how legacy approaches have been uh in place you know largely rules-based engines that are written to be able to try and stop the bad guys and they miss a lot of things and so our data-driven approach uh that we patented is called uh polygraph it's it's a security architecture and there are three primary benefits it does a lot of things but the three things that we think are most profound first is it eliminates the need for you know dozens of point solutions um i was shocked when i you know kind of learned about security i was at symantec back in the day and just to see how fragmented this market is it's one of the biggest markets in tech 124 billion dollars in annual spend growing at 300 billion dollars in the next three years and it's massively fragmented and the average number of point solutions that customers have to deal with is dozens like literally 75 is the average number and so we wanted to take a platform approach to solve this problem where the larger the attack service that you put in the more data that you put into our machine learning algorithms the smarter that it gets and the higher the efficacies look hatfield nailed it in our view i mean the cloud and edge explodes the threat surface and this becomes a data problem at massive scale now is lace work going to solve all these problems no of course not but having researched this it's common for individuals to be managing dozens of tools and enterprises as hatfield said 75 on average with many hundreds being common the number one challenge we hear from csos and they'll tell you this is a lack of talent lack of human skills and bandwidth to solve the problem and a big part of that problem is fragmentation multiple apis scripts different standards that are constantly being updated and evolved so if the cloud can help us reduce tooling creep and simplify and automate at scale as the network continues to expand like the universe we can keep up with the adversaries they're never going to get ahead of them so look i know this topic is a bit off our normal swim lane but we think this is so important and no people that have been victimized so we wanted to call your attention to the exposure and try to get you to take some action even if it's baby steps so let's summarize you really want to begin by understanding where your credentials have been compromised because i promise they have been just look at your phone or look into your browser and see those recommendations and you're going to go whoa i got to get on this at least i hope you do that now you want to block out an entire day to focus on this and dig into it in order to protect you or your and your family's assets there's a lot of stake here and look one day is not going to kill you it's worth it then you want to begin building those three layers that we showed you choose a private email that is secure quote-unquote quote-unquote research the password manager that's find the one that's going to work for you do you want one that's web-based or an app that you download how does the password manager authenticate what do the reviews say how much does it cost don't rush into this you may want to test this out on a couple of low risk systems before fully committing because if you screw it up it's really a pain to unwind so don't rush into it then you want to figure out how to use your non-sms based two-factor authentication apps and identify which assets you want to protect you don't want to protect everything do you really care about your credentials on a site where you signed up years ago and never use it anymore it doesn't have any credit cards in it just delete it from your digital life and focus on your financial accounts your crypto and your sites where your credit card or other sensitive information lives and can be stolen also it's important to understand which institutions utilize which authentication methods really important that you make sure to document everything and air gap the most sensitive credentials and finally you're going to have to keep iterating and improving your security because this is a moving target you will never be 100 protected unfortunately this isn't a one-shot deal you're going to do a bunch of work it's hard but it's important work you're going to maintain your password you're going to change them every now and then maybe every few months six months maybe once a year whatever whatever is right for you and then a couple years down the road maybe two or three years down the road you might have to implement an entirely new system using the most modern tooling which we believe is going to be cloud-based or you could just ignore it and see what happens okay that's it for now thanks to the community for your comments and input and thanks again to jason floyer whose analysis around this topic was extremely useful remember i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes are all available as podcasts all you can do is research breaking analysis podcasts or you can always connect on twitter i'm at d vallante or email me at david.velante siliconangle.com of course i always appreciate the comments on linkedin and clubhouse follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Quantcast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies, The Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe for Success. We're here with Peter Day, the CTO, Quantcast and Shruti Koparkar, Head of Product Marketing Quancast. Thanks for coming on. Talk about the changing advertising landscape. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> So we've been hearing the story out to the big players, want to keep the data, make that centralized, control all the leverage, and then you've got the other end. You've got the open internet that still wants to be free and valuable for everyone. What's what are you guys doing to solve this problem? Because if cookies go away, what's going to happen there? How do people track things? You guys are in this business? First question, what is Quancast strategy to adapt to third-party cookies going away? What's going to be the answer? >> Yeah, so very rightly said, John. The mission, the Quancast mission is to champion of free and open internet. And with that in mind, our approach to this a world without third party cookies is really grounded in three fundamental things. First is industry standards. We think it's really important to participate and to work with organizations who are defining the standards that will guide the future of advertising. So with that in mind we've been participating with IAB Tech Lab, We've been part of their project, we are same thing with Prebid, who's kind of trying to figure out the pipes of identity the ID pipes of the future. And then also is W3C which is the World Wide Web Consortium. And our engineers and our engineering team are participating in their weekly meetings, trying to figure out what's happening with the browsers and keeping up with the progress there on things such as Google's FLoC. The second sort of thing is interoperability. As you've mentioned that a lots of different ID solutions that are emerging. You have UID 2.0, you have LiveRamp, you have Google's FLoC, and there will be more, there are more, and they will continue to be more. We really think it is important to build a platform that can ingest all of these signals. And so that's what we've done. The reason really is to meet our customers where they are at. Today our customers use multiple Data Management Platforms, DMPs. And that's why we support multiple of those. This is not going to be much different than that. We have to meet our customers where we are, or where they are at. And then finally, of course, which is at the very heart of who Quancast is, is innovation. As you can imagine being able to take all of these multiple signals in, including the IDs and the cohorts, but also others like contextual first party consent is becoming more and more important. And then there are many other signals like time, language, geolocation. So all of these signals can help us understand user behavior, intent and interests. In absence of third party cookies. However there's something to note about these. They're very raw, they're complex, they're messy, all of these different signals. They are changing all the time, their real time. And those incomplete in information isolation, just one of these signals can not help you build up true and complete picture. So what you really need is a technology like AI and Machine Learning, to really bring all of these signals together, combine them statistically, and get an understanding of user behavior intent and interest, and then act on it. Be it in terms of providing audience insights, or responding to bid requests and so on and so forth. So those are sort of the three fundamentals that our approach is grounded in which is industry standards, interoperability, and innovation. And you know, you have Peter here >> Yeah. who is the expert so you can dive much deeper into it. >> So Peter is CTO. You've got to tell us, how is this going to actually work? What are you guys doing from a technology standpoint to help with data-driven advertising and a third-party cookieless world? >> Well, we've been this is not a shock. You know, I think anyone who's been close to this space has known that the third party cookie has been reducing in quality in terms of its pervasiveness and its longevity for many years now. And the kind of death knell is really Google Chrome, making the changes that, they're going to be making. So we've been embarrassing in this space for many years and we've had to make a number of hugely diverse investments. So one of them is in how to, as a marketer how do I tell it my marketing still working in a world without (indistinct). The majority of marketers, completely relying on third party cookies today. It's tell them if their marketing is working or not. And so we've had to invest heavily and statistical techniques, which are closer to kind of echo metric models that marketers are used to have things like out of home advertising. It's going to be establishing whether their advertising is working or not in a digital environment. And actually this as with often the case in these kind of times of massive disruption, there's always opportunity to make things better. And we really think that's true. And you know, digital measurement is often mistaken precision for accuracy and there's a real opportunity to kind of see the wood for the trees if you'd like. And start to come up with better methods of measuring the effectiveness of advertising without third party cookies. And we've had to make countless other investments in areas like contextual modeling, and targeting that third-party cookies and connecting directly to publishers rather than going through this kind of loom escape that's going to tied together third party cookies. So I could, if I was to enumerate all the investments we've made I think it would be here till midnight, but we've had to make a number of investments over a number years. And that level investments only increasing at the moment. >> Peter, on that contextual, can you just double click on that and tell us more? >> Yeah, I mean, contextual it is, unfortunately when I think this is really poorly defined. It can mean everything from a publisher saying, Hey trust us this page is about SUV's, it's a what's possible now. And it's only really been possible the last couple of years which is to build statistical models of the entire internet based on the content that people are actually consuming. And this type of technology requires massive data processing capabilities, it's able to take advantage of the latest innovations in areas like natural language processing. And really gives computers, that kind of much deeper and richer understanding of the internet, which ultimately makes it possible to kind of organize the internet, in terms of the types of content of pages. So this type of technology has only been possible for the last few years. And, but we've been using contextual signals since our inception. Had always been massively predictive in terms of audience behaviors, in terms of where advertising is likely to work. And so we've been very fortunate to keep that investment going and take advantage of many of these innovations that are happening in academia and in kind of an adjacent areas >> On the AI and Machine Learning aspect. That seems to be a great differentiator in this day and age for getting the most out of the data. How is machine learning and AI factoring into your platform? >> I think it's how we've always operated, right from our inception. When we started as a measurement company. The way that we were giving our customers at the time we were just publishers, just the publisher side of our business. Insights into who their audience was, which was using Machine Learning techniques. And that's never really changed. The foundation of our platform has always been Machine Learning from before it was cool. A lot of our, kind of a lot of our co-teams have backgrounds in Machine Learning, and the PhDs in statistics and Machine Learning. And that really drives our decision-making. I mean, data is only useful if you can make sense of it and if you can organize it, and if you can take action on it, and to do that at this kind of scale it's absolutely necessary to use Machine Learning technology. >> So you mentioned contextual also, you know, in advertising we have everyone knows and that world that you got the contextual and behavioral dynamics. The behavior that's kind of generally can everyone's believing is happening. The consensus is undeniable is that, people are wanting to expect an environment where there's trust, there's truth, but also they want to be locked in. They don't want to get walled into a walled garden. Nobody wants to be in a wall garden. They want to be free to pop around and visit sites. It's more horizontal scalability than ever before yet. The bigger players are becoming walled garden vertical platforms. So with future of AI, the experience is going to come from this data. So the behaviors out there. How do you get >> Yeah. that contextual relevance and provide the horizontal scale that users expect? >> Yeah, I think it's a really good point and we're definitely at this kind of tipping point, we think in the broader industry. I think, you know, every publisher, right? We're really blessed to work with the biggest publishers in the world. All the way through to my mom's blog, right? So we get to hear the perspectives of the publishers at every scale. And they consistently tell us the same thing. Which is they want some more directly connect to consumers. They don't want to be tied into these walled gardens, which dictate how they must present their content. And in some cases what content they're allowed to present. And so, you know, our job as a company is to really provide level the playing field a little bit. Provide them the same capabilities they're only used to in the walled gardens, but let, give them more choice. In terms of how they structure their content, how they organize their content, how they organize their audiences, but make sure that they can fund that effectively. By making their audiences and their environments discoverable by marketers, measurable by marketers, and connect them as directly as possible to make that kind of ad funded economic model, as effective in the open internet as it is in social. And so a lot of the investments we've made over recent years have been really to kind of realize that vision, which is, it should be as easy for a marketer to be able to understand people on the open internet, as it is in social media. It should be as effective for them to reach people in that environment, is really high quality content as it is on Facebook. And so we've invested a lot of our R&D dollars in making that true. And we're now live with the Quantcast Platform which does exactly that. And as third party cookies go away, it only kind of exaggerate all kind of further emphasizes the need for direct connections between brands and publishers. And so we just want to build a technology that helps make that true, and gives the kind of technology to these marketers and publishers to connect, and to deliver great experiences without relying on these kind of walled gardens. >> Yeah. The direct to consumer, direct to audience is a new trend. You're seeing it everywhere. How do you guys support this new kind of signaling from for that's happening in these new world? How do you ingest the content, ingest this consent signaling? >> We were really fortunate to have an amazing an amazing R&D team. And, you know, we've had to do all sorts to make this, you know, to realize our vision. This has meant things like we, you know we have crawlers which stand the entire internet at this point, extract the content of the pages, and kind of make sense of it, and organize it. And organize it for publishers so that they can understand how their audiences overlap with potentially their competitors or collaborators, but more importantly, organize it for marketers. So they can understand what kind of high-impact opportunities are there for them there. So, you know, we've had to build a lot of technology. We've had to build analytics engines which can get answers back in seconds, so that, you know marketers and publishers can kind of interact with it with their own data and make sense of it and present it in a way that is compelling and then help them drive their strategy as well as their execution. We've had to invest in areas like consent management. Because we believe that a free and open internet is absolutely reliant on trust. And therefore we spend a lot of our time thinking about how do we make it easy for end-users to understand who has access to that data and easy friendly and users to be able to opt out. And as a result of that, we've now got the world's most widely adopted consent management platform. So it's hard to tackle one of these problems without tackling all of them. And we're fortunate enough to have had a large enough R&D budget over the last four or five years, make a number of investments, everything from consent and identity, through to contextual signals, through to measurement technologies, which really bring advertisers and publishers closer together. >> Great insight there. Shruti last word for you. What's the customer view here as you bring these new capabilities of the platform. What's what are you guys seeing as the highlight from a platform perspective? >> So the initial response that we've seen from our customers has been very encouraging. Both on the publisher side, as well as the marketer side. I think, you know, one of the things we hear quite a lot is you guys are at least putting forth a solution and action solution for us to test. Peter mentioned measurement. That really is where we started because you cannot optimize what you cannot measure. So that is where his team has started. And we have some measurement, very very initial capabilities still in alpha, but they are available in the platform for marketers to test out today. So the initial response has been very encouraging. People want to engage with us. Of course, our, you know, our fundamental value proposition which is that the Quantcast platform was never built to be reliant on third party data, these stale segments. Like we operate we've always operated on real time live data. The second thing is our premium publisher relationships. We have had the privilege of working like Peter served with some of the biggest publishers but we also have a very wide footprint. We have first party tags across over a hundred million plus web and mobile destinations. And, you know, as you must've heard like that sort of first party footprint, is going to come in really handy in a world without third party cookies. We are encouraging all of our customers, publishers and marketers to grow their first party data. And so that's something that's a strong point that customers love about us and lean into it quite a bit. So, yeah, the initial response has been great. Of course it doesn't hurt that we've made all these R&D investments. We can talk about consent, and, you know, I often say that consent it sounds simple, but it isn't, there's a lot of technology involved. But there's lots of legal work involved as it as well. We have a very strong legal team who has expertise built in. So yeah, a very good response initially. >> Democratization, everyone's a publisher, everyone's a media company. They have to think about being a platform. You guys provide that. So congratulations Peter, thanks for dropping the gems there. Shruti thanks for sharing the product highlights. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is the Quancast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies and what's next The Cookie Conundrum, the Recipe for success with Quancast I'm John Berger with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to the Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe For Success an industry conference and summit from Quancast on the demise of third-party cookies. We've got a great industry panel here to break it down. Chris Guenther, senior vice president global head of Programmatic at News Corp. Chris, thanks for coming on. Xiao Lin, managing director solutions at Xaxis, and Somer Simpson, vice president of product at Quancast stellar panel. Looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for coming on and chatting about the cookie conundrum. >> Thank you for having us. >> So, Chris, we'll start with you at News Corp obviously major publisher. Deprecation of third-party cookies affects everyone. You guys have a ton of traffic, ton of audience across multiple formats. Tell us about the impact to you guys and the reliance you guys had on them. And what are you going to do to prepare for this next level change? >> Sure. I mean, I think like everyone in this industry there is a, you know, a significant reliance and I think it's something that a lot talk about audience targeting, but obviously they realize that third party cookies pervasive across the whole ad tech ecosystem, MarTech stack. And so, you know, we have to think about, you know how that impact, you know, our vendor the vendors we work with, what it means in terms of our use cases across marketing, across advertising across site experience. So, you know, without a doubt, it's significant. But you know, we look at it as listen. It's disruptive in disruption and change is always a little scary, but overall it's a it's a long overdue reset. I mean, I think that, you know, our perspective is that the the cookies, as we all know, is it was a crutch, right? It's sort of a technology being used in way it shouldn't. And so, as we look at what's going to happen presumably after Jan 2022, then it's a good way to kind of fix on some bad practices practices that lead to data, leakage, practice sort of devalued for our perspective. Some of the, you know, we offered as, as publishers. And I think that this is a key thing is that we're not just looking to as we look through post gen world, not just kind of recreating the prior world. Because the prior world was flawed or I guess I could say the current world since it hasn't changed yet. But the current world is flawed. Let's not just replicate that. You know, let's make sure that third party cookies goes away other work around like fingerprinting and things like that, you know, also go away. So, you know, philosophically that's where our head's at. And so, you know, as we look at how we are preparing you look at sort of what are the core building blocks of preparing for this world. Obviously one of the key ones is privacy compliance. Like how do we treat our users with consent? You know, obviously are we aligned with the regulatory environments? You know, in some ways we're not looking just to Jan 2022 but Jan 2023, where there's going to be the majority of our audiences, we covered by regulation. And so I think from regulation up to data gathering, to data activation, all built around an internal identifier that we've developed that allows us to have a a consistent look at our user is whether they're logged in or obviously, anonymous. So it's really looking across all those components, across all our sites, and all in a privacy compliant way. So a lot of work to be done, a lot of work in progress but you know, we're excited about what's going on. >> I like how you framed it, you know, old world or next gen kind of the current situation is kind of flawed. And as you think about Programmatic, the concept is mind blowing and what needs to be done. So we'll come back to that because I think that original content view is certainly relevant. It's a huge investment, and you've got great content and audience consuming it. Xiao, from a major media standpoint get your perspective on the impact because you've got clients who want to get their message out in front of the audience at the right time, at the right place and the right context. Right? So yeah, privacy, you got consent and all of these things kind of boiling up how do you help clients prepare? Because now they can go direct to the consumer. You know, everyone, everyone has a megaphone now everyone's you know, everyone's here, everyone's connected. So how are you impacted by this new notion? >> You know, if the cookieless future was a tik tok dance, we'd be dancing right now and at least until the next year. This has been top of mind for us and our clients for quite some time. But I think as each day passes the picture becomes clearer and more in focus. The end of the third party cookie does not mean the end of Programmatic. So clients work with us in transforming their investments into real business outcomes based on our expertise and based on our tech. So we continue to be in a great position to lead, to educate, to partner, and to grow with them along this cookieless future. The impact will be all encompassing in changing the ways we do things now and also accelerating the things that we've already been building on. So we take it from the top. Planning will have a huge impact because it's going to start becoming more strategic around real business outcomes. We're omni-channel. So clients wants to drive outcomes through multiple touch points of a consumer's journey. Whether that's programmatic, whether that's as a cookie free environment like connected TV, out of home, audio, gaming, and so forth. So we're going to see more of these strategic holistic plans. Creative will have a lot of impact. It will start becoming more important with Creative testing, Creative insights, you know, Creative in itself is cookieless. So there will be more focus on how to drive a brand dialogue, to connect to consumers with less targeting, with less cookies. With the cohesiveness of holistic planning, Creative can align through multiple channels. And lastly, the role of AI will become increasingly important. You know, we've always looked to build our tech, our products, to compliment new and existing technology as well as the client's own data and tech stack to deliver these outcomes for them. And AI in its core is just taking inputted data and having an output of your desired outcomes. So input data could be DSP data beyond cookies such as browser, such as location, such as contextual, a publisher taking client's first party data, first party CRM data like store visitation sales site activity. And using that to optimize in real time regardless of what vendor or what channel we're on. So as we're learning more about this cookieless dance, we're helping our clients on the steps of it, and also introducing our own moves. >> That's awesome. Data is going to be a key value proposition, you know connecting in with content real time. Great stuff. Somer, with your background in journalism and you're the tech VP of product at Quancast. You have the keys to the kingdom over there. It's interesting, journalism is about truth you know, good content, original content. But now you have a data challenge, problem, opportunity on both sides, brands and publishers coming together. This is a data problem in a way. It's a tech stack, not so much just, you know getting the right ads to show up at the right place, the right time. It's really bigger than that now. What's your take on this? >> You know, I, so first I think that consumers already sort of accept that there is a reasonable value exchange, you know, for their data, in order to access free content. Right? And that's a critical piece for us to all kind of understand. Over the past. Yeah, probably two years, since even before the GDPR, we've been doing a ton of discovery with customers, both publishers and marketers. And so, you know, we kind of known this this cookie going away thing is, has been coming and you know, Google's announcement just kind of confirmed it. And it's been really really interesting since Google's announcement how the conversations have changed with our customers and other folks that we talk to. And I've almost gone from being like a product manager to a therapist because there's such an emotional response. From the marketer perspective, there's real fear there. There's like, Oh my God, how you know, it's not just about delivering ads. It's about how do I control frequency? How do I measure, you know, success? You know, because the technology has grown so much over the years to really give marketers the ability to deliver personalized, you know, advertising good content to consumers and be able to monitor it and control it so that it's not too, too intrusive. On the publisher perspective side, we see a slightly different response. It's more of a yes. Right? You know, we're taking back control and we're going to stop the data leakage. We're going to get the value back for our inventory. Both things are a good thing. But if it's not managed, it's going to be like ships passing in the night. Right? In terms of, you know, them coming together. Right? And that's the critical pieces that they have to come together. They have to get closer. You got to cut out a lot of like that LUMAscape in the middle so that they can talk to each other and understand what's the value exchange happening between marketers and publishers and how do we do that without cookies? >> Yeah. It's a fascinating, I love your insight there. I think it's so relevant. And it's got broader implications because, you know, if you look at how data is impacting some of these big structural changes and refactoring of industries look at cybersecurity, you know no one wants to share their data but now if they share, they get more insight more machine learning, benefit, more AI benefit. So now we have the sharing notion but that goes against counter the big guys that want a walled garden. They want to hoard all the data and control that to provide their own personalization. So you have this confluence of, hey I want to hoard the data and then now I want to share the data. So Chris and Homer, in the wheelhouse you've got original content and there's other providers out there. So is there the sharing model coming? with privacy and these kinds of services is the open come back again? How do you guys see this? The confluence of open versus walled gardens. Because you need the data to make machine learning good. >> I'll start off. I mean, listen, I think you have to give credit to the walled gardens I've created. And I think as we look as publishers, what are we offering to our clients? What are we offering to the buy-side? We need to be compelling. We shouldn't just be, obviously, as journalists I think that there is a case of, you know the importance of funding journalism. But ultimately we need to make sure we're meeting the the KPIs and the business needs of the buy-side. And I think around that, it is, you know there's sort of three core pillars to that. It's ease of access, it's scope of activation and targeting, and finally, measurable results. So as I think, as us, as an individual publisher of so we have multiple publications so we do have scale, but then in partnership with other publishers perhaps organizations like Prebid, you know I think we can, we're trying to address that. And I think we can offer something that's compelling and transparent in terms of what these results are. But obviously, you know, I want to make sure it's clear that transparent terms of results, but obviously where there's privacy in terms of the data. And I I think we've all heard about like data clean rooms, a lot of them out there flogging those wares. And I think there's something valuable, but you know I think it's who is sort of the right partner or partners, and ultimately who allows us to get as close as possible to the buy side. And so that we can share that data for targeting shared for perhaps for measurement, but obviously all in a privacy compliant way. >> Somer, what's your take on this? Because you talk about the future of the open internet democratization. The network effect that we're seeing in virality and across multiple omni-channels as Xiao pointed out, it's happening. That's the distribution now. So that's almost an open garden model. So it's like >> Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's, you know back in the day, you know, Nightrider who was the first group that I, that I worked for, you know each of those individual properties were not hugely valuable on their own from a digital perspective. but together as a unit, they became valuable. Right. And got a scale for advertisers. Now we're in a place where, you know, I kind of think that each of those big networks are going to have to come together and work together to compare in size to the, to the walled gardens. And yeah, this is something that we've talked about before, an open garden. I think that's the definitely the right route to take. And I agree with Chris. It's about publishers getting as close to the marketers as possible, working with the tech companies that enable them to do that, and doing so in a very privacy centric way. >> Xiao how do we bring the brands and agencies together to get ready for third-party cookies? Because there is a therapist moment here of it's going to be okay, the parachute will open. The future is not going to be as grim. It's a real opportunity, but if managed properly. What's your take on this? Is it just more first party data strategy? And what's your assessment of this? >> So we're collaborating right now with ball grants on how to distill very complex cookieless future you know, what's going to happen in the future. To six steps that we can take right now and marketers should take. The first step is gather Intel on what's working on your current campaign analyzing the data sets across cookie free environment. So you can translate those tactics eventually when the cookies do go away. So we have to look at things like temporal or time analysis. We can look at log level data. We can look at site analytics data. We can look at brand measurement tools and how Creative really impacts the campaign success. The second thing we can look at is geo-targeting strategies. The geo-targeting strategy has been underrated because the granularity and DL data could go down all the way to the local level, even beyond zip code. So for example, the census block data. And this is especially important for CPG brands. So we're working closely with the client teams to understand not only the online data, but the offline data and how we can utilize that in the future. We want to optimize investments around markets that are working, so strong markets, and then test in underperforming markets. The third thing we can look at is contextual. So contextual by itself is cookie free. We could build on small-scale usage to test and learn various keywords and content categories based sets, working closely with partners to find ways to leverage their data, to mimic audiences that you are trying to target right now with cookies. The fourth one is publisher data or publisher targeting. So working with your publishers that you have strong relationships with who can curate similar audiences using their own first party data and conducting RFIs to understand the scale and reach against your audience and your future roadmap. So work with your top publishers based on historical data to try to recreate your best strategies. The fifth thing, and I think this is very important, is first party data. That's going to matter more than ever in the cookieless future. Brands will need to think about how to access and develop the first party data starting with the consumer, seeing of value in exchange for the information it's a goldmine and understanding your consumer their intent, their journey. And you need a really great data sciences team to extract insights out of that data, which will be crucial. So partner with strategic onboarding vendors and vet their ability to accept first party data into a clean room environment for targeting, for modeling, for insights. And lastly, the sixth thing that we can do is begin inform prospecting by dedicating test budget to start gaining learnings about cookieless. One, one place that we can start, and it is under invested right now, is Safari and Firefox. They have been cookieless for quite some time. So you can start here and begin testing here. Work with your data scientist team to understand the right mixes to target and start exploring other channels outside of just programmatic cookies. Like CTV, digit auto home, radio, gaming, and so forth. So those are the six steps that we're taking right now with our clients to prepare and plan for the cookieless future. >> So, Chris, let's go back to you. What's the solution here? Is there one, is there multiple solutions? What's the future look like for a cookieless future? >> I think the one certain answer is there definitely is not just one solution. As we all know right now, there seems to be endless solutions, a lot of ideas out there, proposals when the W3C, work happening within other industry bodies, you know, private company solutions being offered. And you know, it's a little bit, it's enough to make everyone's head spin and to try to track it to understand it and understand the impact. And as a publisher, we're obviously, you know, a lot of people are knocking on our door, you know they're saying, hey, our solution is one that it's going to bring in lots of money. You know, all the buy-side is going to use it. This is the one like unlock all the spend. And it's our experience so far is that none of these solutions are, cause I think everyone's still testing and learning. No one on the buy side from our, from our knowledge is really committed to one or a few. It's all about a testing stage. I think that, you know, putting aside all that noise I think what matters the most to us as publishers, actually something Somer mentioned before. It's about control. You know, if we're going to work with a, you know, again outside of our sort of independent internal identifier work that we're doing, if we're going to work with an outside party or an outside approach, does it give us control >> As a publisher to ensure that it is, you know we control the, the data from our users, you know there isn't that data leakage, it's privacy compliant. You know, what information gets shared out there? What is it what's released within, you know within the bitstream? If it is something that's attached to a, someone, a declared user, a registered user that if that then is not somehow amplified or leverage off in another site in a way that is leveraging bit stream data or fingerprinting and going again. And so I think that the spirit of what we're trying to do in a post third party cookie world. And so those controls are critical. And I think to have those controls as publisher we have to be collectively be disciplined. And you know, what solutions that we sort of we test out and what we eventually adopt. But even when that adoption point arrives it definitely will not be one. There will be multiple because there's just too many cases to address. >> Great, great insight there from you guys at News Corp. Somer, let's get back to you. I want to get your thoughts. You've been in many waves of innovation, ups and downs. We're on a new one now. We talked about the open internet and democratization. Journalism is under a lot of pressure now but there's now a wave of quality people, really leaning in towards fighting misinformation, understanding truth and community and data is at the heart of it. What do you see as the new future for journalists to reward journalism? Is there a way, is there a path forward? >> So there's what I hope is going to happen. And then I'm just going to ignore what could, right. You know, there's a trend in market right now at a number of fronts, right? So there are marketers who are leaning in to wanting to spend their marketing dollars with quality journalists, focusing on BiPAC owned and operated, really leaning into supporting those businesses that have been and those publishers that have been ignored for years. I really hope that this trend continues. We are leaning into helping marketers curate that supply, right. And, and really, you know, speak with their dollars about the things that they support and value in market. So I'm hoping that that trend continues. And it's not just sort of like a marketing blip but we will do everything possible to kind of encourage that behavior and give people the information that they need to find. You know, truly high quality journalism. >> That's awesome. Chris, Xiao, Somer, thanks for coming on and sharing your insight on this panel on the cookieless future. Before we go, just quick summary, each of you if you don't mind just giving a quick sound bite or bumper sticker of what we can expect. If you had to throw a prediction for what's going to happen in the next 24 months. Chris, we'll start with you. >> It's going to be quite a ride. I think that's an understatement. I think that there, I wouldn't be surprised if if Google delays the change to the Chrome by a couple months. And may give the industry some much needed time. But no one knows, I guess, I guess I'm not except for someone somewhere, we are deep within Chrome. So I think we all have to operate in a way that changes that happen, changes that happen quickly. And it's going to cover across all facets of the industry, all facets of, you know, from advertising and marketing. So just be prepared. >> Okay. Xiao. Along those same lines, be prepared. Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. You know, we're all dancing in this together. I think for us, it's planning and preparing and also building on what we've already been working on. So omni-channel, AI, Creative, and I think clients will lean more into those different channels. >> Awesome. Somer, take us home. Last words. >> I think we're in the throwing spaghetti against the wall stage, right? So this is a time of discovery of leaning and trying everything out learning and iterating as fast as we possibly can. >> Awesome. And I love the cat in the background over your shoulder. I can't stop staring at your wonderful cat. Somer, thanks for coming on. Xiao, Chris, thanks for coming on this awesome panel industry breakdown of the Cookie Conundrum, a Recipe for Success data AI open the future is here. It's coming. It's coming fast. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching.