(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, which is an open industry collaboration between technologists, consultants, analysts, and of course, practitioners, to help shape the future of cloud. And at this event, one of the key areas we're exploring is the intersection of cloud and data, and how building value on top of hyperscale clouds and across clouds is evolving, a concept we call supercloud. And we're pleased to welcome Harvir Singh, who's the chief data architect and global head of data at Western Union. Harvir, it's good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the program. >> Thanks, David, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. >> So many things stand out from when we first met, and one of the most gripping for me was when you said to me, "When data moves, money moves." And that's the world we live in today, and really have for a long time. Money has moved as bits, and when it has to move, we want it to move quickly, securely, and in a governed manner. And the pressure to do so is only growing. So tell us how that trend is evolved over the past decade in the context of your industry generally, and Western Union, specifically. Look, I always say to people that we are probably the first ones to introduce digital currency around the world because, hey, somebody around the world needs money, we move data to make that happen. That trend has actually accelerated quite a bit. If you look at the last 10 years, and you look at all these payment companies, digital companies, credit card companies that have evolved, majority of them are working on the same principle. When data moves, money moves. When data is stale, the money goes away, right? I think that trend is continuing, and it's not just the trend is in this space, it's also continuing in other spaces, specifically around, you know, acquisition of customers, communication with customers. It's all becoming digital, and it's, at the end of the day, it's all data being moved from one place or another. At the end of the day, you're not seeing the customer, but you're looking at, you know, the data that he's consuming, and you're making actionable items on it, and be able to respond to what they need. So I think 10 years, it's really, really evolved. >> Hmm, you operate, Western Union operates in more than 200 countries, and you you have what I would call a pseudo federated organization. You're trying to standardize wherever possible on the infrastructure, and you're curating the tooling and doing the heavy lifting in the data stack, which of course lessens the burden on the developers and the line of business consumers, so my question is, in operating in 200 countries, how do you deal with all the diversity of laws and regulations across those regions? I know you're heavily involved in AWS, but AWS isn't everywhere, you still have some on-prem infrastructure. Can you paint a picture of, you know, what that looks like? >> Yeah, a few years ago , we were primarily mostly on-prem, and one of the biggest pain points has been managing that infrastructure around the world in those countries. Yes, we operate in 200 countries, but we don't have infrastructure in 200 countries, but we do have agent locations in 200 countries. United Nations says we only have like 183 are countries, but there are countries which, you know, declare themselves countries, and we are there as well because somebody wants to send money there, right? Somebody has an agent location down there as well. So that infrastructure is obviously very hard to manage and maintain. We have to comply by numerous laws, you know. And the last few years, specifically with GDPR, CCPA, data localization laws in different countries, it's been a challenge, right? And one of the things that we did a few years ago, we decided that we want to be in the business of helping our customers move money faster, security, and with complete trust in us. We don't want to be able to, we don't want to be in the business of managing infrastructure. And that's one of the reasons we started to, you know, migrate and move our journey to the cloud. AWS, obviously chosen first because of its, you know, first in the game, has more locations, and more data centers around the world where we operate. But we still have, you know, existing infrastructure, which is in some countries, which is still localized because AWS hasn't reached there, or we don't have a comparable provider there. We still manage those. And we have to comply by those laws. Our data privacy and our data localization tech stack is pretty good, I would say. We manage our data very well, we manage our customer data very well, but it comes with a lot of complexity. You know, we get a lot of requests from European Union, we get a lot of requests from Asia Pacific every pretty much on a weekly basis to explain, you know, how we are taking controls and putting measures in place to make sure that the data is secured and is in the right place. So it's a complex environment. We do have exposure to other clouds as well, like Google and Azure. And as much as we would love to be completely, you know, very, very hybrid kind of an organization, it's still at a stage where we are still very heavily focused on AWS yet, but at some point, you know, we would love to see a world which is not reliant on a single provider, but it's more a little bit more democratized, you know, as and when what I want to use, I should be able to use, and pay-per-use. And the concept started like that, but it's obviously it's now, again, there are like three big players in the market, and, you know, they're doing their own thing. Would love to see them come collaborate at some point. >> Yeah, wouldn't we all. I want to double-click on the whole multi-cloud strategy, but if I understand it correctly, and in a perfect world, everything on-premises would be in the cloud is, first of all, is that a correct statement? Is that nirvana for you or not necessarily? >> I would say it is nirvana for us, but I would also put a caveat, is it's very tricky because from a regulatory perspective, we are a regulated entity in many countries. The regulators would want to see some control if something happens with a relationship with AWS in one country, or with Google in another country, and it keeps happening, right? For example, Russia was a good example where we had to switch things off. We should be able to do that. But if let's say somewhere in Asia, this country decides that they don't want to partner with AWS, and majority of our stuff is on AWS, where do I go from there? So we have to have some level of confidence in our own infrastructure, so we do maintain some to be able to fail back into and move things it needs to be. So it's a tricky question. Yes, it's nirvana state that I don't have to manage infrastructure, but I think it's far less practical than it said. We will still own something that we call it our own where we have complete control, being a financial entity. >> And so do you try to, I'm sure you do, standardize between all the different on-premise, and in this case, the AWS cloud or maybe even other clouds. How do you do that? Do you work with, you know, different vendors at the various places of the stack to try to do that? Some of the vendors, you know, like a Snowflake is only in the cloud. You know, others, you know, whether it's whatever, analytics, or storage, or database, might be hybrid. What's your strategy with regard to creating as common an experience as possible between your on-prem and your clouds? >> You asked a question which I asked when I joined as well, right? Which question, this is one of the most important questions is how soon when I fail back, if I need to fail back? And how quickly can I, because not everything that is sitting on the cloud is comparable to on-prem or is backward compatible. And the reason I say backward compatible is, you know, there are, our on-prem cloud is obviously behind. We haven't taken enough time to kind of put it to a state where, because we started to migrate and now we have access to infrastructure on the cloud, most of the new things are being built there. But for critical application, I would say we have chronology that could be used to move back if need to be. So, you know, technologies like Couchbase, technologies like PostgreSQL, technologies like Db2, et cetera. We still have and maintain a fairly large portion of it on-prem where critical applications could potentially be serviced. We'll give you one example. We use Neo4j very heavily for our AML use cases. And that's an important one because if Neo4j on the cloud goes down, and it's happened in the past, again, even with three clusters, having all three clusters going down with a DR, we still need some accessibility of that because that's one of the biggest, you know, fraud and risk application it supports. So we do still maintain some comparable technology. Snowflake is an odd one. It's obviously there is none on-prem. But then, you know, Snowflake, I also feel it's more analytical based technology, not a transactional-based technology, at least in our ecosystem. So for me to replicate that, yes, it'll probably take time, but I can live with that. But my business will not stop because our transactional applications can potentially move over if need to. >> Yeah, and of course, you know, all these big market cap companies, so the Snowflake or Databricks, which is not public yet, but they've got big aspirations. And so, you know, we've seen things like Snowflake do a deal with Dell for on-prem object store. I think they do the same thing with Pure. And so over time, you see, Mongo, you know, extending its estate. And so over time all these things are coming together. I want to step out of this conversation for a second. I just ask you, given the current macroeconomic climate, what are the priorities? You know, obviously, people are, CIOs are tapping the breaks on spending, we've reported on that, but what is it? Is it security? Is it analytics? Is it modernization of the on-prem stack, which you were saying a little bit behind. Where are the priorities today given the economic headwinds? >> So the most important priority right now is growing the business, I would say. It's a different, I know this is more, this is not a very techy or a tech answer that, you know, you would expect, but it's growing the business. We want to acquire more customers and be able to service them as best needed. So the majority of our investment is going in the space where tech can support that initiative. During our earnings call, we released the new pillars of our organization where we will focus on, you know, omnichannel digital experience, and then one experience for customer, whether it's retail, whether it's digital. We want to open up our own experience stores, et cetera. So we are investing in technology where it's going to support those pillars. But the spend is in a way that we are obviously taking away from the things that do not support those. So it's, I would say it's flat for us. We are not like in heavily investing or aggressively increasing our tech budget, but it's more like, hey, switch this off because it doesn't make us money, but now switch this on because this is going to support what we can do with money, right? So that's kind of where we are heading towards. So it's not not driven by technology, but it's driven by business and how it supports our customers and our ability to compete in the market. >> You know, I think Harvir, that's consistent with what we heard in some other work that we've done, our ETR partner who does these types of surveys. We're hearing the same thing, is that, you know, we might not be spending on modernizing our on-prem stack. Yeah, we want to get to the cloud at some point and modernize that. But if it supports revenue, you know, we'll invest in that, and get the, you know, instant ROI. I want to ask you about, you know, this concept of supercloud, this abstracted layer of value on top of hyperscale infrastructure, and maybe on-prem. But we were talking about the integration, for instance, between Snowflake and Salesforce, where you got different data sources and you were explaining that you had great interest in being able to, you know, have a kind of, I'll say seamless, sorry, I know it's an overused word, but integration between the data sources and those two different platforms. Can you explain that and why that's attractive to you? >> Yeah, I'm a big supporter of action where the data is, right? Because the minute you start to move, things are already lost in translation. The time is lost, you can't get to it fast enough. So if, for example, for us, Snowflake, Salesforce, is our actionable platform where we action, we send marketing campaigns, we send customer communication via SMS, in app, as well as via email. Now, we would like to be able to interact with our customers pretty much on a, I would say near real time, but the concept of real time doesn't work well with me because I always feel that if you're observing something, it's not real time, it's already happened. But how soon can I react? That's the question. And given that I have to move that data all the way from our, let's say, engagement platforms like Adobe, and particles of the world into Snowflake first, and then do my modeling in some way, and be able to then put it back into Salesforce, it takes time. Yes, you know, I can do it in a few hours, but that few hours makes a lot of difference. Somebody sitting on my website, you know, couldn't find something, walked away, how soon do you think he will lose interest? Three hours, four hours, he'll probably gone, he will never come back. I think if I can react to that as fast as possible without too much data movement, I think that's a lot of good benefit that this kind of integration will bring. Yes, I can potentially take data directly into Salesforce, but I then now have two copies of data, which is, again, something that I'm not a big (indistinct) of. Let's keep the source of the data simple, clean, and a single source. I think this kind of integration will help a lot if the actions can be brought very close to where the data resides. >> Thank you for that. And so, you know, it's funny, we sometimes try to define real time as before you lose the customer, so that's kind of real time. But I want to come back to this idea of governed data sharing. You mentioned some other clouds, a little bit of Azure, a little bit of Google. In a world where, let's say you go more aggressively, and we know that for instance, if you want to use Google's AI tools, you got to use BigQuery. You know, today, anyway, they're not sort of so friendly with Snowflake, maybe different for the AWS, maybe Microsoft's going to be different as well. But in an ideal world, what I'm hearing is you want to keep the data in place. You don't want to move the data. Moving data is expensive, making copies is badness. It's expensive, and it's also, you know, changes the state, right? So you got governance issues. So this idea of supercloud is that you can leave the data in place and actually have a common experience across clouds. Let's just say, let's assume for a minute Google kind of wakes up, my words, not yours, and says, "Hey, maybe, you know what, partnering with a Snowflake or a Databricks is better for our business. It's better for the customers," how would that affect your business and the value that you can bring to your customers? >> Again, I would say that would be the nirvana state that, you know, we want to get to. Because I would say not everyone's perfect. They have great engineers and great products that they're developing, but that's where they compete as well, right? I would like to use the best of breed as much as possible. And I've been a person who has done this in the past as well. I've used, you know, tools to integrate. And the reason why this integration has worked is primarily because sometimes you do pick the best thing for that job. And Google's AI products are definitely doing really well, but, you know, that accessibility, if it's a problem, then I really can't depend on them, right? I would love to move some of that down there, but they have to make it possible for us. Azure is doing really, really good at investing, so I think they're a little bit more and more closer to getting to that state, and I know seeking our attention than Google at this point of time. But I think there will be a revelation moment because more and more people that I talk to like myself, they're also talking about the same thing. I'd like to be able to use Google's AdSense, I would like to be able to use Google's advertising platform, but you know what? I already have all this data, why do I need to move it? Can't they just go and access it? That question will keep haunting them (indistinct). >> You know, I think, obviously, Microsoft has always known, you know, understood ecosystems. I mean, AWS is nailing it, when you go to re:Invent, it's all about the ecosystem. And they think they realized they can make a lot more money, you know, together, than trying to have, and Google's got to figure that out. I think Google thinks, "All right, hey, we got to have the best tech." And that tech, they do have the great tech, and that's our competitive advantage. They got to wake up to the ecosystem and what's happening in the field and the go-to-market. I want to ask you about how you see data and cloud evolving in the future. You mentioned that things that are driving revenue are the priorities, and maybe you're already doing this today, but my question is, do you see a day when companies like yours are increasingly offering data and software services? You've been around for a long time as a company, you've got, you know, first party data, you've got proprietary knowledge, and maybe tooling that you've developed, and you're becoming more, you're already a technology company. Do you see someday pointing that at customers, or again, maybe you're doing it already, or is that not practical in your view? >> So data monetization has always been on the charts. The reason why it hasn't seen the light is regulatory pressure at this point of time. We are partnering up with certain agencies, again, you know, some pilots are happening to see the value of that and be able to offer that. But I think, you know, eventually, we'll get to a state where our, because we are trying to build accessible financial services, we will be in a state that we will be offering those to partners, which could then extended to their customers as well. So we are definitely exploring that. We are definitely exploring how to enrich our data with other data, and be able to complete a super set of data that can be used. Because frankly speaking, the data that we have is very interesting. We have trends of people migrating, we have trends of people migrating within the US, right? So if a new, let's say there's a new, like, I'll give you an example. Let's say New York City, I can tell you, at any given point of time, with my data, what is, you know, a dominant population in that area from migrant perspective. And if I see a change in that data, I can tell you where that is moving towards. I think it's going to be very interesting. We're a little bit, obviously, sometimes, you know, you're scared of sharing too much detail because there's too much data. So, but at the end of the day, I think at some point, we'll get to a state where we are confident that the data can be used for good. One simple example is, you know, pharmacies. They would love to get, you know, we've been talking to CVS and we are talking to Walgreens, and trying to figure out, if they would get access to this kind of data demographic information, what could they do be better? Because, you know, from a gene pool perspective, there are diseases and stuff that are very prevalent in one community versus the other. We could probably equip them with this information to be able to better, you know, let's say, staff their pharmacies or keep better inventory of products that could be used for the population in that area. Similarly, the likes of Walmarts and Krogers, they would like to have more, let's say, ethnic products in their aisles, right? How do you enable that? That data is primarily, I think we are the biggest source of that data. So we do take pride in it, but you know, with caution, we are obviously exploring that as well. >> My last question for you, Harvir, is I'm going to ask you to do a thought exercise. So in that vein, that whole monetization piece, imagine that now, Harvir, you are running a P&L that is going to monetize that data. And my question to you is a there's a business vector and a technology vector. So from a business standpoint, the more distribution channels you have, the better. So running on AWS cloud, partnering with Microsoft, partnering with Google, going to market with them, going to give you more revenue. Okay, so there's a motivation for multi-cloud or supercloud. That's indisputable. But from a technical standpoint, is there an advantage to running on multiple clouds or is that a disadvantage for you? >> It's, I would say it's a disadvantage because if my data is distributed, I have to combine it at some place. So the very first step that we had taken was obviously we brought in Snowflake. The reason, we wanted our analytical data and we want our historical data in the same place. So we are already there and ready to share. And we are actually participating in the data share, but in a private setting at the moment. So we are technically enabled to share, unless there is a significant, I would say, upside to moving that data to another cloud. I don't see any reason because I can enable anyone to come and get it from Snowflake. It's already enabled for us. >> Yeah, or if somehow, magically, several years down the road, some standard developed so you don't have to move the data. Maybe there's a new, Mogli is talking about a new data architecture, and, you know, that's probably years away, but, Harvir, you're an awesome guest. I love having you on, and really appreciate you participating in the program. >> I appreciate it. Thank you, and good luck (indistinct) >> Ah, thank you very much. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the entire Cube community. Keep it right there for more great coverage from Supercloud 2. (uplifting music)

>>Hi, we're back day two of Falcon, 2022. We're live from the area in Las Vegas, Silicon angles, the queue. My name is Dave Lanta and Rob Picard is here. He's the security lead for Vanta a company that CrowdStrike just made an investment in. Rob. Thanks for coming to the cube. >>Thank you very much. Happy to be here. So >>That's big news. You know, you got a, a big name, like CrowdStrike strategic investment. Tell us about that. >>Yeah, it's very exciting because CrowdStrike obviously is, you know, a major name in the security space and Vanta is a really leading the way in a lot of the compliance automation, but being able to sort of dip into that, that security space more and more having crowd strike behind us is huge. >>What is compliant? Compliance automation. Tell us more about what Vanta does. Yeah. >>So Vanta ultimately is a tool that gives you an automatic way to prepare for your SOC two audit or your ISO 27 0 1 audit or, you know, insert long list of dozens of standards we're working on here. But in the olden days you would provide a thousand screenshots to an auditor that proves that for the past year, past six months, you've been doing what you say you're doing, Banta just plugs directly into your systems and proves that evidence to them without the need for all of >>That. Okay. So software's a service and you yeah. Software charge monthly or okay. >>Yeah, something like that. >>Educate me if I'm cloud first or cloud only can't I just pull a SOC report off of AWS and send that to the auditors and say, here you go, >>That'll help. Right? Like if you, if you do that, if you're in AWS and you pull their, you know, I think their security hub, you can pull some of these controls in. Right. But the question is, what do you do then about your endpoints, right? What do you do about, Hey, did we off board everybody from all of the systems we have enabled, right? All of the SAS systems we use. And so what van does is we integrate with AWS, but we also integrate with every other system you're using, including your HR system and your identity provider, to make sure that, Hey, you know, all of these things are, are working in sync to ensure your compliance. So >>You're relatively new parent, but you ever, you know, the book, if you give a mouse, a cookie, you will, you will, the whole thing is you give a mouse, a cookie, and then 8 million things happen, all these other dependencies. And it goes around and around and around. Yes. He's gonna want some milk. Okay. I feel like it's the same thing in your world, right? I mean, there is, is, is there an end, when do you know you're done? >>Yeah. I mean, ultimately, you know, you're done when the O auditor hands you, your sock to report, you know, you have your at stage, you say, Hey, I'm sock too compliant. Or, you know, your ISO cert, but even then it's gonna keep going. Right. I think the tricky part is there are some key systems that you, you want to have, you know, your eyes on and you wanna be monitoring and making sure that Hey, in a year from now, when that audit happens, I'm not gonna be surprised at what they find. Right. And those are gonna be your cloud provider. Right. Those are gonna be your HR system telling you when people joined, when people left, and those are gonna be your identity provider and your endpoints, right. >>Are you guys obviously compliance experts? Is, is it really a matter of sort of codifying that expertise? Or is there a machine intelligence component involved, you know, discovery? How does it work? >>That's a great question, actually. And I think part of it is, you know, encoding that expertise in the product and making sure that, you know, there's not necessarily, you know, if you ask any given sock to auditor for like, Hey, what controls should I be using that you're gonna audit me against? And it's your job to come up with the control. So they'll provide you some, you know, their set, but it's gonna be different between them, right? The standard itself is not a list of controls, but what we can do is we can provide you that list of controls and say like, Hey, we've actually worked with a ton of auditors and they've worked with us and we can say, this is what you need to do to get started here. And then if you have custom controls to add later, you want you, you can do that. >>But so there's part of that's encoding the expertise, but then part of it is just understanding the world of, of the auditors enough that we can help guide you through it. Because, you know, like you said, you can go to AWS, you can get download a report, right. That says, look, I have, you know, these, so two controls past right now, but the question is, you know, you still have to then go hand that to an auditor, have conversations with them, get through all of their questions back to you. And that can get really, really in the weeds. So we have like teams of experts who sit on calls with auditors and customers and help them through this stuff when needed. Right. And hopefully it's not needed as much when you're, you know, automating most of it. So >>That's a, a component of your offering is, is a services capability. Is that part of the offering? Is that a for pay service? >>Yeah. So, you know, you have to talk to the sales team to understand how they bundle it all, but, you know, essentially we have these professional services teams and these partners that jump in, I think a lot of times it really is just, Hey, like the auditor asks this question. We don't know how to answer it. We'll send somebody to jump on, >>Let's jump on a call. Exactly. But if you need more intense, you >>Know, work services, then maybe that's available. Yeah. >>Okay. And, and is there a privacy aspect of your software? >>Yeah. So Vanta software does actually also support GDPR and CCPA to kind of help you. You know, it's hard to get your head around that stuff. You wanna talk about like encoding expertise, you know, having people inside Vanta who can talk through the product and say like, Hey, this is what we need to test for in a customer's environment. And this is what we need to point to that maybe, you know, you can't automatically test for, but we can give them some template policies or, or procedures for them to have in their company. And we can provide all of that to try to, to help you feel good about, Hey, we're, we're compliant with GDPR or we're compliant with CCPA and we're not gonna have problems here. And, >>And da is data, data sovereignty I presume is, is part of that. Like, >>You know, data sovereignty, man. I'm not the expert on data sovereignty. I'll tell you that. But I know that is definitely a part of that. I don't know, you know, how deep it goes when it comes to, you know, the requirements of any given company. >>Well, it's tricky because a lot of it hasn't been tested in the, in courts of law. That's just sort of guidelines there. Yeah. And then a lot of times you don't, how do you really know where the data is? Right. I mean, you kind of can infer it, but, >>And you can get real clever. You can start encrypting data that sits somewhere here, but you have the keys over here and say, no, no, no, the keys are in the right country. You know, that counts, >>Right. It gets real tricky. It's not really been tested that the logic of that, what are the hard parts of what you guys do and, and, and what makes you different from everybody else out there? >>Yeah. I mean, I think I'd say a couple things are, are really hard about what we do, right. One is maintaining good reputations with auditors because the goal is ultimately that an auditor sees Vanta and they say, okay, Vanta says that checkbox is checked. I don't have to worry about it. And that's where we are with so many auditors today. Right. But that wasn't like that in the beginning, in the beginning, it was, you know, Hey, we're showing you the code that actually looks and checks that box. Right. But the other hard part is just integrating with the long tail of systems that every customer needs, right? Like if you use a certain HR system and we don't support it, then that's gonna really dampen your value that you get outta the product. So the engineering challenges, maintaining a reliable set of both high quality tests and high quality integrations with these surfaces, >>What are the synergies with, with CrowdStrike kind of, you know, it's, maybe it seems obvious, but explain where you pick up and where they leave off. >>Yeah. I think that's a, that's a great point. So, you know, we have a very, like a very, a very simple agent that will run. If you need something on your laptop that says, Hey, look, this laptop, the disc is encrypted, right? The screen lock is set appropriately for my controls, right? So we have some, some basic capabilities it's based on OS query for, for those interested, but it's not a full fledged endpoint protection platform. Right. And that's where something like CrowdStrike can come in where we can integrate with them and say, okay, Hey, if you're ready to move on to something, that's, that's a little bit more full-fledged and a little bit more of a, you know, gonna protect you against malware and that sort of thing. Then you can move onto CrowdStrike and we can integrate directly with them and we can pull all the information we need and we can check all those boxes for you that say, Hey, you have appropriate malware protection, you have discs encrypted, you have whatever it may be. Right. We can pull that information from them. And we can also help you make sure that the people have access to CrowdStrike itself in your company are the right set of people. >>Who do you sell to, do you sell to the audit function within a company? Or do you sell directly to big auditors? Both. >>So it's, we're mainly selling to the whoever's responsible for getting that. So to getting that ISO, getting GDPR, you know, all these sorts of things at a company, right? So for a small business, right, a startup that's like two people could >>Be the developer >>Team. Exactly. We're selling either to the founders or developers or something like that. And we're saying, Hey, you don't wanna think about this at all. We can get you like 80% of the way there without having to send a single screenshot. And then there's like 20% of like, all right, we'll help you, you know, partner you with the right auditor. That's good for your company and, and get you over the line. But then as we go and we sell to a mid-market company, or, you know, even potentially an enterprise, we're talking to people who have very specific expertise in either security or compliance, who also don't wanna have to do all this manual work. >>And it's a pure SAS model. It runs in the cloud. How does it work? I just pointed at whatever software I want to, to, to, to get, you know, certified >>That's exactly right. It's, it's pure SAS. You go to, you know, the app do vanda.com. You log in and then you go to the integrations page, right. You're, you're starting fresh. And you say, okay, well, AWS, here's how you integrate AWS. Right? We use there assume role functionality and stuff like that to pull in, you know, read only data from AWS. And then you can also go to your Okta and you can say, okay, well, I can connect here through Okta, through, you know, an Okta app or I can connect to my Google through an oof that has the right permissions. So we try to just limit the amount of permissions we have or the scope of our, our, you know, roles. But really it's just, you know, it's all API based integrations that we then just pull the data. We need to prove that you're doing what you say you're doing all >>Well, Rob, congratulations on the funding and the activity here at, at CrowdStrike. Good show. So, you know, good luck to you in the future. >>Thank you very much. All right. >>You're very welcome. All right. Keep it right there, Dave. Valante for the cube. We'll be right back, but right after this strip break from Falcon 22, live from the area in Las Vegas,

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm your host, Lisa Martin Rajko same joins me now the chief product officer at elation. Raj. Great to have you on the cube. Welcome. >>It's great to be here, Lisa. And I've been a fan for a while and excited to have a chance to talk with you live. >>And we've got some exciting stuff to talk about elation in terms of the success in the enterprise market. I see more than 25% of the fortune 100 doing great. There is customers elation and snowflake. Before we get into your exciting news. Talk to me a little bit about the evolution of the partnership. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, we've always been a, a close partner and integrator with snowflake and last year snowflake became an investor in elation and they participated in our series D round. And the thing I'm most excited about beyond that is we were announced in the snowflake summit back in June to be their data governance partner of the year for the second year running. And so we've always had a closer relationship with snowflake, both at the go to market level and at the product level. And you know, the stuff that we're about to talk about is a Testament to that. >>Absolutely. It is. So talk to us before we get into the announcement. What you're seeing in the market as organizations are really becoming much more serious about being data driven and building a data culture. What are you seeing with respect to enterprises as well as those smaller folks? >>Yeah, no, it, it, it's, it's a great question. I mean, you, you hear the T tropes data is the new oil data is like water it's essential. And we're seeing that very consistently across every customer, every segment, every geo that we, that we talk to, I, I think the challenges that organizations are seeing that are leading to the amazing growth that we've seen at elation are there's so much data. They don't know where it resides. You've got silos or islands of knowledge that exist across the, the enterprise. And they need a data intelligence platform to bring it all together, to help them make sense of it and ultimately build a data culture that, you know, it lets their employees make data driven decisions as opposed to relying on gut. And so those are some of the macro trends that we're seeing and with the migration of data to the cloud and in particular snowflake, it seemed like a huge opportunity for us to partner even more closely with, with snowflake. And we're, we're excited about the progress that we've seen with them thus far. >>All right, let's get right into it. So first of all, define a data culture and then talk to us about how elation and snowflake are helping organizations to really achieve that. >>Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting. The, the company vision that we have at elation is to empower a curious and rational world. And you know, what that really means is we want to deliver solutions that drive curiosity and drive rational behavior. So making, making decisions based on data and insights, as opposed to gut, or, you know, the, the highest paid, you know, person's opinion or what have you. And so delivering a data culture, building a data culture, which is something we hear from all the CDOs that we talk to is, Hey, elation, help us drive data literacy across the organization, provide that single source of reference. So if anybody has a question about, do we have data that answers this, or, you know, what kind of performance are we seeing in this product area? Give me a starting point for my data exploration journey. And that's really where elation and our data intelligence solutions kind of come into the play. >>So unpack elation cloud service for snowflake. Talk to us about what it is, why you're doing it, what the significance of this partnership and this solution is delivering. >>Absolutely. So the elation cloud service for snowflake is a brand new offering that we just brought to market. And the intent really was, you know, we've had massive success in the global 2000. You mentioned the, the progress that we've had with fortune 100 customers, we see the need for data, culture, and data literacy and governance in organizations, you know, that are massive global multinational enterprises all the way down to divisions of an organization, or even, you know, mid-market and SMB companies. And so we thought there was a huge opportunity to really drive data culture for those organizations that are adopting snowflake, but still need that data intelligence overlay across the, the data that's in the snowflake cloud. And so what we did is we launched the elation cloud service for snowflake as a free trial, and then, you know, low cost purchase solution that, you know, can be adopted for less than a hundred thousand dollars a year. >>Got it. So tar from a target market perspective that lower end of the market for, of course, you know, these days, Raj, as we talk about every company, regardless of size, regardless of industry and location has to be a data company getting there and, and, and, and really defining and going on a journey to get there is really complex. So you're going now down market to meet those customers where they are, how will elation cloud service for snowflake help those customers, those smaller customers really become data driven and, and, and adopt a data culture. >>Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a great question. I, I think the biggest goal that we had was making it really simple and easy for them to begin this journey. So, you know, we are now live in the snowflake partner connect portal. And if someone wants to experience the power of elation cloud service for snowflake, they just need to go to that portal, click the elation tile. And literally within less than two minutes, a brand new instance of elation is spun up. Their snowflake data is automatically being cataloged as part of this trial. And they have 14 days to go through this experience and, and get a sense of the power of elation to give them insights into what's in their snowflake platform, what governance options they can layer on top of their snowflake data cloud and how the data is transforming across their organization. >>So talk to me about who you're talking to within a customer. I was looking at some data that elation provided to me, and I see that according to Gartner data culture is priority number one for chief data officers, but for those smaller organizations, do they have chief data officers? Is that responsibility line still with the CIO? Who are you engaging with? >>Yeah, it's very, very, really great question. I, I think the larger organizations that we sell to definitely have a, a CDO and, you know, CDO sometimes is the chief data and analytics officer in smaller organizations, or even in divisions of big companies that, that, you know, might be target customers for ACS, for snowflake could be a, a VP of analytics could be head of marketing. Operations could be a data engineering function, so that might roll up into the it. And so I think that's, what's interesting is we, we wanted to take the friction out of the, the experience process and the trial process, and whoever is responsible for the snowflake instance and, and leveraging snowflake for, for data and analytics, they can explore and understand what the, a power elation layered on top of snowflake can provide for them. >>Okay. So another, another thing that I uncovered in researching for this segment is McKenzie says data, culture is decision culture. I thought that was a really profound statement, but it's also such a challenge to get there is organizations of all sizes are on various points in their journey to become data driven. What does that mean? How, how well, how do elation and help customers really achieve that data culture so that they can really have that decision culture so they can make faster, better data based decisions? >>Yeah, it, so I, I think a huge part of it, like if we think about our, our, our big area of focus, how do we enable users to find, understand trust, govern, and use data within snowflake in this instance? And so step one to drive data culture is how, how do you provide a single source of reference a, a, a search box, frankly, you know, Google for your, for your data environment, so that you can actually find data, then how do you understand it? You know, what's in there. What does it mean? What are the relationships between these data objects? Can I trust this? Is this sandbox data, or is this production data that can be used for reporting and analytics? How do I govern the data? So I know who's using it, who should use it, what policies are there. And so if, if we go through the set of features that we've built into ation cloud service for snowflake, it enables us to deliver on that promise result at the very end, resulting in the ability to explore the data that exists in the snowflake platform as well. >>Let's go ahead and unpack that. Now, talk to me about some of the key capabilities of the solution and what it's enabling organizations to achieve. >>Yeah, so, you know, it starts with cataloging the data itself. You know, we, we, we are the data catalog company. We basically define that category. And so step one is how do we connect to snowflake and automatically ingest all the metadata that exists within that snowflake cloud, as well as extract the lineage relationships between tables. So you can understand how the data is transforming within the snowflake data cloud. And so that provides visibility to, to begin that fine journey. You know, how, how do I actually discover data on the understand and trust front? I think where things get really interesting is we've integrated deeply with Snowflake's new data governance features. So they've got data policies that provide things like row level security and, and data masking. We integrate directly with those policies, extract them, ingest them into elation so that they can be discovered, can be easily applied or added to other data sets within snowflake directly from the elation UI. >>So now you've got policies layered on top of your data environment. Snowflake's introduced, tagging and classification capabilities. We automatically extract and ingest those tags. They're surfaced in inhalation. So if somebody looks for a data set that they're not familiar with, they can see, oh, here are the policies that this data set is applied to. Here are the tags that are applied. And so snow elation actually becomes almost like a user interface to the data that exists within that snowflake platform. And then maybe just two other things with the lineage that we extract. One of the most important things that you can deliver for users is impact analysis. Hey, if I'm gonna deprecate this table, or if I'm gonna make a change to what this table definition is, what are the downstream objects and users that should know about that? So, Hey, if this table's going away and my Tableau report over here is gonna stop working, boy, it'd be great to be able to get visibility into that before that change is made, we can do that automatically within the elation UI and, and really just make it easier for somebody to govern and manage the data that exists within the snowflake data cloud. >>So easier to govern and manage the data. Let's go up a level or two. Sure. Talk to me about some of the business outcomes that this solution is gonna help organizations to achieve. We talked about every company these days has to be a data company. Consumers expect this very personalized, relevant experience. What are you thinking? Some of the outcomes are gonna be that this technology and this partnership is gonna unlock. >>Yeah, no, I, I, I think step one, and this has always been a huge area of focus for us is just simply driving business productivity. So, you know, the, the data that we see in talking to CDOs and CDOs is the onboarding and, and getting productive the time it takes to onboard and, and get a data analyst productive. It, it can be nine to 12 months. And, you know, we all know the battle for talent these days is significant. And so if we can provide a solution, and this is exactly what we do that enables an organization to get a data analyst productive in weeks instead of months, or, or, you know, potentially even a year, the value that that analyst can deliver to the organization goes up dramatically because they're spending less time looking for data and figuring out who knows what about the data. >>They can go to elation, get those insights and start answering business questions, as opposed to trying to wrangle or figure out does the data exist. And, and, and where does it exist? So that's, that's one key dimension. I'd say the other one that, that I'd highlight is just being able to have a governance program that is monitored managed and well understood. So that, you know, whether it's dealing with CCPA or GDPR, you know, some of the regulatory regimes, the, the ability for an organization to feel like they have control over their data, and they understand where it is who's using it and how it's being used. Those are hugely important business outcomes that CIOs and CDOs tell us they need. And that's why we built the lation cloud service for snowflake >>On the first front. One of the things that popped into my mind in terms of really enabling workforce productivity, workforce efficiency, getting analysts ramped up dramatically faster also seems to me to be something that your customers can leverage from a talent attraction and retention perspective, which in today's market is critical. >>I, I so glad you mentioned that that's, that's actually one of the key pillars that we highlight as well is like, if you give great tools to employees, they're gonna be happier. And, and you'll be a, a preferred employer and people are gonna feel like, oh, this is an organization that I wanna work at because they're making my job easier and they're making it easier for me to deliver value and be productive to the organization. And that's, it's absolutely critical this, this, this war for talent that everybody talks about. It's real and great self-service tools that are empowering to employees are the things that are gonna differentiate companies and allow them to, to unleash the power of data, >>Unleash the power of data, really use it to the competitive advantage that it can and should be used for. When we look at, when you look at customers that are on that journey, that data catalog journey, they, you probably see such a variety of, of locations about where they are in that journey. Do you see a common thread when you're in customer conversations? Is there kind of a common denominator that you, you speak to where you, you really know elation and snowflake here is absolutely the right thing. >>Yeah, no, it, it, it's a good question. I would actually say the fact that a customer is on snowflake. I they're already, you know, a step up on that maturity curve. You know, one of the big use cases that we see with customers that is, is leading to the need for data intelligence solutions that, you know, like that elation can deliver is digital transformation and, and, and cloud migration, you know, we've got legacy data. On-prem, we know we need to move to the cloud to get better agility, better scaling, you know, perhaps, you know, reduced costs, et cetera. And so I think step one, on that, that qualification criteria or that maturity journey is, Hey, if you're already in snowflake, that's a great sign because you're, you're recognizing the power of a data cloud platform and, and, and warehouse like snowflake. And so that's a, a, a great signal to us that this is a customer that wants to, you know, really better understand how they can get value out of, out of their solution. I think the next step on that journey is a recognition that they're not utilizing the data that they have as effectively as they can and should be, and they're not, and, and their employees are still struggling with, you know, where does the data exist? Can I trust it? It, you know, it, who do I know tends to be more important than do I have a tool that will help me understand the data. And so customers that are asking those sorts of questions are ideal customers for the elation cloud service for snowflake solution. >>So enabling those customers to get their hands on it, there's a free trial. Talk to us about that. And where can the audience go to actually click and try? >>Absolutely. So, you know, we'll, we'll be doing our usual marketing and, and promotion of this, but what I'm super excited about, you know, again, I mentioned earlier, you know, this is part of our, our cloud native multi 10 and architecture. We are live in the snowflake partner connect portal. And so if you are logged into snowflake and are an admin, you can go to the partner connect portal and you will see a tile. I think it's alphabetically, sorted and elation starts with a so pretty easy to find. I don't think you'll have to do too much searching. And literally all you have to do is click on that tile, answer a couple quick questions. And in the background in about two minutes, your elation instance will get spun up. We'll we will have sample data sets in there. There's some guided tours that you can walk through to kind of get a feel for the power of snowflake. >>So policy center lineage, you know, tags, our intelligent SQL tool that allows you to smartly query the snowflake data cloud and publish queries, share queries with others, collaborate on them for, for greater insights. And there's, you know, as you would expect with any, you know, online free trial, you know, we've got a built in chat bot. So if you have a question, wanna get a better sense of how a particular feature works or curious about how elation might work. In other areas, you can, you know, ask a question to the chat bot and we've got product specialists on the back end that can answer questions. So we really wanna make that journey as, as seamless and easy as, as possible. And hopefully that results in enough interests that the customer wants to, to, or the, the trial user wants to become a customer. And, and that's where our great sales organization will kind of take the Baton from there. >>And there's the, there's the objective there, and I'm sure Raj folks can find out about the free trial and access it. You, you mentioned through the marketplace, more information on elian.com. I imagine they can go there to access it as well, >>A hundred percent elation.com. We're on Twitter, we're on LinkedIn, but yeah, if you have any questions, you know, you can just search for elation cloud service for snowflake, or just go to the elation.com website. Absolutely. >>All right. Elation cloud service for snowflake. Congratulations on the launch to you and the entire elation team. We look forward to hearing customer success stories and really seeing those business outcomes realize in the next few months, Raj, thanks so much for your time. >>Thank you so much, Lisa. It's great to talk to you. >>Likewise, Raj gin. I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching this cube conversation. Stay right here for more great action on the cube, the leader in live tech coverage.

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days. Cloud storage, immutability and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on, it has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is oftentimes data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats. This is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring but object storage historically was seen as this low cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard trade offs between cost and performance. That has changed. The ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parody with other storage formats. But cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes. My name is Dave Vellante and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues. First up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur, who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi. We'll then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi. And then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss, cool. Let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO, and co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company. David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks, Dave. Nice to be here. >> Great to have you. So look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years. Why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder, Jeff Flowers, and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disc drive was probably 500 gigabytes. And now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even hundred terabyte drives coming down the road. And, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disc drives is going to run out of steam, because even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures of sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth, was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it. And they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab designing and testing this new storage architecture. And when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we could sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite, you know? When you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zettabytes or something like that. And if you look at that as, you know, the potential market size during that data we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions. And so I said, look, this is a great opportunity. If you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on prem. If you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud. We're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like VEEAM, Commvault, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups they're never going to pay a ransom. So once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well so that you can't do a full restore from your backups, and that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know? Write once read many. And those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud. And it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff. But, you know, the net result is, if you store your backups in immutable buckets in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time. So you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that. Once that date is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty, it's obviously a big deal. I mean, especially for companies with a presence overseas but what's really is any digital business these days? How should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws. And if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in country you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore and I've probably forgotten one or two. But the reason we do that is twofold. One is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in country, so you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in may of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws. And we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and it continues to evolve. We see judgements in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the US and the elimination of third party cookies. What does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of, even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things to this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the US. Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues. So it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world. And this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world. And we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia, and so forth. You know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base. And that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah. It's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David. Thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations. What does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud. And I think, storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth. And it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local. And there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential. You know, the most analysts think that the full all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range. Whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month. And so I think people are learning how to, are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow. That's like a six X more expensive and the clouds more than six X. >> Yeah. >> All right, thank you, David. Go ahead, please. >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days, cloud storage, immutability, and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on it, has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is, oftentimes, data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats, this is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring, but object storage, historically, was seen as this low-cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard tradeoffs between cost and performance. That has changed, the ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parity with other storage formats, but cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes, my name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose-built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues, first up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi will then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi, and then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss School, let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO and Co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company, David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Great to have you, so look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years, why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder Jeff Flowers and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disk drive was probably 500 gigabytes and now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even 100 terabyte drives coming down the road and, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disk drives is going to run out of steam because, even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new, highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it and they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab, designing and testing this new storage architecture and when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we can sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite. You know, when you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zetabytes or something like that and if you look at that as you know, the potential market size during that data, we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions and so I said, look, this is a great opportunity, if you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on-prem, if you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud, we're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter, and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches, but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes, but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like Veeam, Convo, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups, they're never going to pay a ransom. So, once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well, so that you can't do a full restore from your backups. And that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you, you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know, write once read many, and those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud, and it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff but, you know, the net result is if you store your backups in immutable buckets, in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time, so you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that, once that data is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it, or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty. It's obviously a big deal, I mean, especially for companies with the presence overseas, but what's really is any digital business these days, how should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws and if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in-country, you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore, and I've probably forgotten one or two, but the reason we do that is twofold; one is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency, and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos, and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in-country, so, you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in May of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws and we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and think it continues to evolve, we see judgments in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the U.S. and the elimination of third party cookies, what does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things of this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the U.S., Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues so it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world and this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi, where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world and we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia and so forth, you know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base and that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah, it's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David, thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations, what does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud and I think storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth, and it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local, and there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential, you know, the most analysts think that the full, all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range, whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud, like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month and so I think people are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow, that's like a six X more expensive in the clouds, more than six X, all right, thank you, David,-- >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business, you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE, a great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, keep it right there. ♪ Whoa ♪ ♪ Brenda in sales got an email ♪ ♪ Click here for a trip to Bombay ♪ ♪ It's not even called Bombay anymore ♪ ♪ But you clicked it anyway ♪ ♪ And now our data's been held hostage ♪ ♪ And now we're on sinking ship ♪ ♪ And a hacker's in our system ♪ ♪ Just 'cause Brenda wanted a trip ♪ ♪ She clicked on something stupid ♪ ♪ And our data's out of our control ♪ ♪ Into the hands of a hacker's ♪ ♪ And he's a giant asshole. ♪ ♪ He encrypted it in his basement ♪ ♪ He wants a million bucks for the key ♪ ♪ And I'm pretty sure he's 15 ♪ ♪ And still going through puberty ♪ ♪ I know you didn't mean to do us wrong ♪ ♪ But now I'm dealing with this all week long ♪ ♪ To make you all aware ♪ ♪ Of all this ransomware ♪ ♪ That is why I'm singing you this song ♪ ♪ C'mon ♪ ♪ Take it from me ♪ ♪ The director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince Nairobi ♪ ♪ 'Cuz he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ (gentle music) >> Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wasabi, hey Drew, good to see you again, thanks for coming back in theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, great to see you. >> All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew, prior to the pandemic, Zero Trust, just like kind of like digital transformation was sort of a buzzword and now it's become a real thing, almost a mandate, what's Wasabi's take on Zero Trust. >> So, absolutely right, it's been around a while and now people are paying attention, Wasabi's take is Zero Trust is a good thing. You know, there are too many places, right, where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of Zero Trust as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, it takes some planning, but you know, done properly and using the right technologies, using the right vendors, the rewards are, of course tremendous, right? You can put to rest the fears of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >> Well, and we're going to talk about this, but there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design and your Zero Trust and you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure, so we're going to talk about that, there's a lot of discussion in the industry, Drew, about immutability and air gaps, I'd like you to share Wasabi's point of view on these topics, how do you approach it and what makes Wasabi different? >> So, in terms of air gap and immutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time is that it makes it that much easier, right, to have a secure immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. You know, we're working with some of the best, you know, partners in the industry, you know, we're working with folks like, you know, Veeam, Commvault, Arc, Marquee, MSP360, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data, you need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable and we can talk a little bit about what immutability is and what it really means. >> You know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about Wasabi's solution because, sometimes people don't understand, you actually are a cloud, you're not building on other people's public clouds and this storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that, tell us a little bit more about Wasabi's approach and your solution. >> Yeah, I appreciate that, so there's definitely some misconception, we are our own cloud storage service, we don't run on top of anybody else, right, it's our systems, it's our software deployed globally and we interoperate because we adhere to the S3 standard, we interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right, we're talking about backup and recovery applications and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, just about everybody who's anybody in this business protecting data has the ability now to access cloud storage and so we've made it really simple, in many cases, you'll see Wasabi as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, you know, put in your private keys, make sure that your account is locked down properly using, let's say multifactor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >> I mean, we just heard from David Friend, if I did my math right, he was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, maybe even a little better than that, how are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >> Yeah, so, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80%, right, less expensive than the hyperscalers. And you know, we talked about this at Vermont, right? There's some secret sauce there and you know, we take a different approach to how we utilize the raw capacity to the effective capacity and the fact is we're also not having to run, you know, a few hundred other services, right? We do storage, plain and simple, all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, you know, going to be a loss leader, right? Customers love it, right, they see the fact that their data is growing 40, 80% year over year, they know they need to have some place to keep it secure, and, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves, in fact, we're seeing a tremendous amount of migration actually right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Wasabi because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyperscaler vendor. >> And immutability is a feature of your product, right? What the feature called? Can you double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the term in S3 is Object Lock and what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period, let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable, untouchable, cannot be altered in any way, shape, or form, the application can't change it, the system administration can't change it, Wasabi can't change it, okay, it is truly carved in stone. And this is something that it's been around for a while, but you're seeing a huge uptick, right, in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors and I named off a few earlier and the best part is that with immutability comes some sense of, well, it comes with not just a sense of security, it is security. Right, when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right, they can't take away the data and that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful, beautiful thing. >> And you look like an S3 bucket, is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, we're fully compatible with the S3 API, so if you're using S3 API based applications today, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data, beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right, that's probably the simplest application, simple being a relative term, as far as lift and shift, right? Because that just means for your next full, right, point that at Wasabi, retain your other fulls, you know, for whatever 30, 60, 90 days, and then once you've kind of made that transition from vine to vine, you know, you're often running with Wasabi. >> I talked to my open about the allure of object storage historically, you know, the simplicity of the get put syntax, but what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance that's comparable to other storage formats? >> Oh yeah, absolutely, and we've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up, but I forgot to answer something earlier, right, you said that immutability is a feature and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature but it's an API request. Okay, so when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know, the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effective or 80% less expensive, you know, that API call, right, is typically something that the other folks charge for, right, and I think we used the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? You can think of cloud storage as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much coffee as you want and the coffee's always warm, right? And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge, you want to, you know, pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there, no charge, and that's an important thing, because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects, and you want to get a list of those objects, or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects, anywhere else it's going to cost you money to look at your data, with Wasabi, no additional charge and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >> Excellent, so thank you for that. So, you mentioned some partners before, how do partners fit into the Wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up? You know, what do they bring? Can you give us maybe, a paint a picture for us example, or two? >> Sure, so, again, we just do storage, right, that is our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customer's data. And so they're working with their application vendors, whether it's, you know, active archive, backup and recovery, IOT, surveillance, media and entertainment workflows, right, those systems already know how to manage the data, manage the metadata, they just need some place to keep the data that is being worked on, being stored and so forth. Right, so just like, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right, you literally can plug in Wasabi as long as your applications support the API, getting started is incredibly easy, right, we offer a 30-day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their POC, right, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty, I'm guessing you talked to, you know, Dave Friend earlier about data sovereignty, right? We're global company, right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world some place that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, as well as your compliance requirements. >> Yeah, we did talk about sovereignty, Drew, this is really, what's interesting to me, I'm a bit of a industry historian, when I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, their CEOs would say, we're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out, and for instance, I know one bought competitor of Carbonite, and then couldn't figure out what to do with it, they couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud in part, because they were afraid it was going to cannibalize their existing business, I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition, it brings innovation and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems. Like, you know, ransomware, of mutability and recovery, I'll give you the last word, Drew. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the on-prem vendors, they're not going to go away anytime soon, right, there's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency, high bandwidth, you know, but, you know, not all data's hot all the time and by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot, you know, let's take, you know, real time analytics for, maybe facial recognition, right, that requires sub-millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work, right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and you're going to want to also tap back into it later, so, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like, you know, cold glacial type of tiered storage, yeah, don't believe the hype, you're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a Wasabi-like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We compliment, you know, what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors, in terms of the hardware vendors, right, we're a beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that, I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >> All right, Drew, thank you for that, definitely we see the momentum, in a moment, Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information technology services at The Hotchkiss School, keep it right there. >> Hey, I'm Nate, and we wrote this song about ransomware to educate people, people like Brenda. >> Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We know you are, but Brenda, you're not alone, this hasn't just happened to you. >> No! ♪ Colonial Oil Pipeline had a guy ♪ ♪ who didn't change his password ♪ ♪ That sucks ♪ ♪ His password leaked, the data was breached ♪ ♪ And it cost his company 4 million bucks ♪ ♪ A fake update was sent to people ♪ ♪ Working for the meat company JBS ♪ ♪ That's pretty clever ♪ ♪ Instead of getting new features, they got hacked ♪ ♪ And had to pay the largest crypto ransom ever ♪ ♪ And 20 billion dollars, billion with a b ♪ ♪ Have been paid by companies in healthcare ♪ ♪ If you wonder buy your premium keeps going ♪ ♪ Up, up, up, up, up ♪ ♪ Now you're aware ♪ ♪ And now the hackers they are gettin' cocky ♪ ♪ When they lock your data ♪ ♪ You know, it has gotten so bad ♪ ♪ That they demand all of your money and it gets worse ♪ ♪ They go and the trouble with the Facebook ad ♪ ♪ Next time, something seems too good to be true ♪ ♪ Like a free trip to Asia! ♪ ♪ Just check first and I'll help before you ♪ ♪ Think before you click ♪ ♪ Don't get fooled by this ♪ ♪ Who isn't old enough to drive to school ♪ ♪ Take it from me, the director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince in Nairobi ♪ ♪ Because he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ >> It's a pretty sweet car. ♪ A kid without facial hair, who lives with his mom ♪ ♪ To learn more about this go to wasabi.com ♪ >> Hey, don't do that. ♪ Cause if we had Wasabi's immutability ♪ >> You going to ruin this for me! ♪ This fifteen-year-old wouldn't have on me ♪ (gentle music) >> Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information Technology Services at The Hotchkiss School, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut, hello, Kevin. >> Hello, it's nice to be here, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about The Hotchkiss School and your role. >> Sure, The Hotchkiss School is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role as the Director of Information Technology Services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >> Yeah, and you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens, what's the unique, you know, or if not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you? >> I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of IT security, IT in general sometimes, so, I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into. >> Because specifically you are potentially spread thin, underfunded, you got students, you got teachers, so there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >> Certainly, because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center, so, data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights and FERPA, some of our students are under 18, so, data privacy laws such as COPPA apply, HIPAA can apply, we have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition so, it's a unique place to be, again, we operate very much like a college would, right, we have all the trappings of a private college in terms of all the operations we do and that's what I love most about working in education is that it's all the industries combined in many ways. >> Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in Drew to the conversation so what are the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your data? >> Well, we take a defense in-depth approach, so we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses, we also keep it simple, you know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching , using multifactor authentication, and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >> Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >> Yeah, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what he's doing, going back to our prior conversation about Zero Trust, right, that defense in-depth approach is beautifully aligned, right, with the Zero Trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right, they need to make sure that the data that they're keeping, evidence, right, is secure and immutable, right, because that's evidence. >> Well, Kevin, paint a picture for us, if you would. So, you were primarily on-prem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and the kind of, I want to get to the before and the after Wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >> Sure, well, I came to The Hotchkiss School about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal, so again, not a lot of funding for IT in general, security, or infrastructure in general, so Nutanix was actually a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hotchkiss and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system that students would use, financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SaaS solutions coming in play, we had also taken some time to do some business continuity, planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue, I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that, so, as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud-based, we didn't really need as much of the on-premise compute and storage as we had, and it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AHV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well and it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small IT shops like ours. >> Yeah, AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor and so you migrated off of VMware avoiding the VTax avoidance, that's a common theme among Nutanix customers and now, did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider Wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >> We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, Wasabi became across our desks and it was such a low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month and then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time, it wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network, you know, some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on the internet that they could be stored as well. So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast, security wise, it has all the features of S3 compliance that works with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily and then there was no egress fees, we can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing as any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs, we need to know what we're going to spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for egress or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously, we need that, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >> So Kevin, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed, were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those concerns as an IT practitioner? >> Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing, there's lots of companies with funny names, I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history, understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from, and really looking into the technology and understanding that the value proposition, the ability to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology in which it lays down data. So, having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for, it may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's not cheap, you know, it's reliable, and that was really our concern. So we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Drew, explain the whole egress charge, we hear a lot about that, what do people need to know? >> First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, Dave, just like theCUBE, let's be very clear about that, second of all, egress charges, so, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get, every put, every list, everything, okay, it's part of their process, it's part of how they make money, it's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services, we don't do that. And I think, you know, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond what is the list price. In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then, right, their additional cost, the egress costs, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >> So, you used a little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation, so here's what I'm imagining, like I have a lot of stuff, right? And I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly, I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff, that's kind of the same thing here. >> Oh, that's a great metaphor, right? That storage locker, right? You know, can you imagine every time you want to open the door to that storage locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >> No, that would be annoying. >> Or, every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard, you have to pay a door opening fee, right, and then if you want to look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay, and it's ridiculous, it's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker, you've already paid the annual fee, probably, 'cause they gave you a discount on that, so why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what Wasabi does and I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody else. >> Okay, good, that's helpful, it helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin, I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and ransomware protection, for example? >> Yes, cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too, right, this is often the checking the box kind of activity, insurance companies require it, but we want to make it something that people want to do and want to engage with so, even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that, so it wasn't just about protecting our school data, it's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something do in all aspects of your life, especially now that the folks are working hybrid often working from home with equipment from the school, the stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home and so knowing how to protect that is important, so we definitely run those programs in a way that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >> So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until, of course, we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples, is that what you're talking about, about having fun? >> Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories, you know, they stop as they run, so they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going, so, you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic, yeah, and that's what I think is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure you know the sender of the email, no, you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not? So, that's where I think the learning comes in. >> Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much, appreciate your time, Kevin, Drew, awesome having you in theCUBE. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thanks. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Announcer: Some things just don't make sense, like showing up a little too early for the big game. >> How early are we? >> Couple months. Popcorn? >> Announcer: On and off season, the Red Sox cover their bases with affordable, best in class cloud storage. >> These are pretty good seats. >> Hey, have you guys seen the line from the bathroom? >> Announcer: Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, it just makes sense. >> You don't think they make these in left hand, do you? >> We learned today how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage, immutability, air gaps, and solid operational processes, let's not forget about that, okay? People and processes are critical and if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign and support of digital transformations. Now, if you want to learn more about immutability and Object Block, click on the Wasabi resource button on this page, or go to wasabi.com/objectblock. Thanks for watching Secure Storage Hot Takes made possible by Wasabi. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, well, see you next time. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit. 22 live from Las Vegas. We're at Caesar's forum, Lisa Martin, with Dave ante. We've been having some great conversations over the last day and a half. This guy just came from main stage interviewing the CEO, Franks Lubin himself, who joins us after our next guest here, we're gonna be talking customers and successes with snowflake Rosemary Hua joins us the global head of retail at snowflake and Patrick Kelly, the VP of product management at their customer 84 51. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thank you. It's nice to be here. So >>Patrick, 84 51. Talk to us about the business, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing. And then we'll talk about how you're working with snowflake. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for, uh, the opportunity to be here. So 84 51 is a retail data science insights and media company. And really what that means is that we, we partner with our, uh, parent company Kroger, as well as consumer packaged goods or brands and brokers and agencies, really to understand shoppers and create relevant, personalized, and valuable experiences for shoppers in source and grocery stores. >>That relevance is key. We all expect that these days, I think the last couple of years as everyone's patience has been wearing. Yeah, very thin. I'm not, I'm not convinced it's gonna come back either, but we expect that brands are gonna interact with us and offer us the next best offer. That's actually relevant and personalized to us. How does AB 4 51 achieve that? >>Yeah, it's a great question. And you're right. That expectation is only growing. Um, and it takes data analytics, data science and all of these capabilities in order to deliver it on that promise, uh, you know, big, a big part of the relationship that retailers and brands have with consumers is about a value exchange. And it's, again, it's about that expectation that brands and retailers need to be able to meet the ever-changing needs of consumers. Uh, whether that be introducing new brands or offering the right price points or promotions or ensuring you meet them where they are, whether it be online, which has obviously been catalyzed by, um, the pandemic over the last two years or in store. So a deep understanding of, of the customer, which is founded in data and the appropriate analytics and science, and then the collaboration back with the retailers and, and the brands so that you can bring that experience to life. Again, that could be a price point on the, on the shelf, um, or it could be a personalized email or, um, website interaction that delivers the right experience for the co for the consumer. So they can see that value and really build loyalty >>In the right time in real time. That's >>One of the most Marrit I'm in real time. That's right. One goes, Mary, I love the concept of the, the actual platform of the retail data cloud. Yes. It's so unique for a technology company. Snowflake's a technology company, you see services companies do it all the time, but yeah, but to actually transform what was considered a data warehouse in the cloud to a platform for data, I call it super cloud. Yeah. Tell us how this came about, um, how you were able to actually develop this and where you are in that journey. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's been a big focus on data sharing. We saw that that's how our customers are interacting with each other is using our data sharing functionality to really bring that ecosystem to life. So that's retailers sharing with their consumer products companies selling through those retailers. And then of course the data service companies that are kind of helping both sides and that data sharing functionality is the kind of under fabric for the data cloud, where we bring in partners. We bring in customers and we bring in tech solutions to the table. Um, and customers can use the data cloud, not only with the powered by partners that we have, but also the data marketplace, getting that data in real time and making some business value out of that data. So that's really the big focus of snowflake is investing in industry to realize the business value >>And talk about ecosystem and how important that is, where, where you leave off and the ecosystem picks up and how that's evolving. >>Absolutely. And I'm sure you can join in on this, but, um, definitely that collaboration between retailers and CPGs, right? I mean, retailers have that rich first party customer data. They see all those transactions, they see when people are shopping and then the brands really need that first party data to figure out what their, how their customers are interacting with their brand. And so that collaborative nature that makes up the ecosystem. And of course, you've got the tech partners in the middle that are kind of providing enrich data assets as well. You guys at 84 51 are a huge part of that ecosystem being, you know, one of the key retailers in, in the United States. Um, have you been seeing that as well with your brands? Yeah, >>Absolutely. I mean data and data science has always been core to the identity of 84 51. Um, and historically a lot of the interaction that we have with brands were through report web based applications, right. And it's a really great seamless way to, to deliver insights to non-technical users. But as the entire market has really started to invest in data and data science and technology and capabilities, you know, we, we launched a collaborative cloud last year and it was really an opportunity for us to reimagine what that experience would look like and to ensure that we are meeting the evolving needs of the industry. And as Rosemary pointed out, you know, data sharing is, is table stakes, right? It's a capability that you don't wanna have to think about. You wanna be thinking about the strategic initiatives, the science that you're gonna create in order to drive action and personalize experiences. So what we've found at 84 51 is really investing in our collaborative cloud, um, and working with leading technology providers like snowflake to make that seamless has been, you know, the, the, the UN unlock to ensure that data and data science can be a competitive advantage for our clients and partners, not just, you know, the retailer in 84 51 >>Is the collaborative cloud built on snowflake. >>Yeah. So the collaborative cloud is really about, um, ensuring that data sharing through snowflake is done seamlessly. So we've really, we've invited our clients and partners to build their own science on 84 51 S first party data asset through Kroger. And our, our data is represents 60 million households, half of the United States, 2 billion transactions annually, the robustness of that data asset. And it's it's it's analysis ready is so impactful to the investment that brands can make in their own data science efforts, because brands wanna invest in data science, not to do data work, not to do cleaning and Muning and, and merging and, and standardizing. They wanna do analysis. That's gonna impact the strategies and ultimately the shopper's lives. So again, we're able to leverage the capabilities of snowflake to ensure data sharing is not part of our day to day conversation. Data sharing is something we can take for granted so that we can talk about the shopper and our strategies. >>So this is why I call it super cloud. So Jerry Chen wrote an article of castles in the cloud. And in there he said, he called it sub clouds. And I'm like, no, it's, uh, by the way, great article. Jerry's brilliant. But so you got AWS, you built on top of AWS. That's right. You got the snowflake data called you're building on top of that. And I was sitting at the table and my kid goes, this is super, I'm like, ah, super clouds. So I didn't really even coin it, but, and then I realized somebody else had use it before, but that is different. It's new, it's around data. It's around vertical industries. Yes. Um, I, I get a lot of heat for that term, but I feel like this look around this industry, everybody's doing that that's that is digital transformation. That's don't you see that with your customers? >>Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of different industry trends where you can't use your own historical first party data to figure out what customers are doing. I mean, with COVID customers are behaving totally differently than they used to. And you can't use your historical data to predict out of stocks or how the customer's gonna be interacting with your brand anymore. And you need that third party macroeconomic data. You need that third party COVID data or foot traffic data to enrich what your businesses are doing. And so, yes, it, it is a super cloud. And I think the big differentiator is that we are cloud agnostic, meaning that, like you said, you can take the technology for granted. You don't have to worry about where the other person has their tech stack. It's all the same experience on the snowflake super cloud as he put it. So, >>So Patrick, talk about the, the, the impact that you have been able to have during COVID. I mean, everybody had supply chain issues, but, you know, if you took, if you took away the machine learning and the data science that you are initiating, would life have been harder? Do you have data on that? You know, the, the, what if we didn't have this capability during the >>Challenges? No, it's, it's a fantastic question. And I'll actually build on the example that Rosemary, um, offered around COVID and better understanding COVID. So, um, in the past, you know, when we talk about data sharing data collaboration, it's basically wasn't possible, right? What's your tech stack, what's mine. How do we share data? I don't wanna send you my data without go releasing governance. It was a non-starter and, you know, through technology like snowflake, as we launched the collaborative cloud, we actually had a pilot client start right at the beginning of 2020. Um, we, we had, you know, speced out it onto use cases that really impactful for their, for their organization. But of course, what happened is, uh, a pandemic hit us and it became the biggest question, CEO executive team, all the way down is what is happening, what is happening in our stores? >>How are shoppers behaving and what, what that client of ours came to realize is while we, we actually, we have access to the E 4 51 collaborative cloud. We can see half of America's behavior last week down to the basket transaction UPC level. Let's get going. So again, the conversation wasn't about, you know, what data sources, how do we scramble? How do we get it together? What technologies, how do we collaborate? It was immediately focused on building the analysis to better understand that. And, and the outcomes that drove actually were all the way from manufacturing impact to marketing, to merchandising, because that brand was able to figure out, Hey, our top selling products, they're, they're not on the shelves. What are shoppers doing? Are they going to a, another brand? Are they not buying it all together? Are they going to a different size? Are they staying within our product portfolio? Are they going to a competitor? And those insights drove everything again from what do we need to manufacture more to, how do we need to communicate and incent our, our, our shoppers, our, our loyal shoppers also what's happening to our non loyals. Are they looking for an, you know, an alternative that a need that we can serve that level of, of shopper and customer understanding going all the way up to a strategic initiatives is something that is enabled through the Supercloud >><laugh>. How do you facilitate privacy as we're seeing this proliferation of privacy legislation? Yeah. I think there's now 22 states that have individual, and California's changing to CPR a at the beginning of yes, January 23. How do you balance that need that ability to share data? Yeah. Equitably fast, quickly, but also balance consumer privacy requirements. >>I mean, I could take a stab first. I mean, at snowflake, right, there is no better place to share your data that in a governed way than with snowflake data sharing, because then you can see and understand how the other side is using your data. Whereas in traditional methods, using an API or using an FTP server, you wouldn't be able to actually see how the other side is using your data. But in addition to that, we have the clean room where you can actually join on that underlying PII data without exposing it, because you can share functions securely on, on both sides. So I think there is no better place to do it than here at snowflake. Um, and because we deeply understand those policies, I think we are kind of keeping up with the times trying to get in front of things so that our data sharing capabilities stay up to date. When you have to expunge records, identify records with CCPA and, and GDPR and, and all the rest that are coming. Um, and so, so, I mean, I think especially with 84 50 ones, um, you know, collaborative cloud also building on top of the clean room, um, in, in further road in the further roadmap, I think, uh, you're gonna see some of that privacy compliant, data sharing, coming to play as well. You >>Know, what's interesting, Patrick is we were just in that session with the Frank Q and a, and he was very candid about when he was talking about, uh, Apache, uh, I'm sorry. Apache iceberg. Yeah. Yes. And he, he basically flat out said, look, you know, you gotta put it into the snowflake data cloud. It's, it's better there, but people might, you know, want to put it outside, not get locked in, et cetera. But what I'm, I'm listening to you saying it's so much easier for you today that could evolve something open source. And, and how do you think about that in terms of placing your bets? >>Yeah, it, it's a great question and really to go back to privacy, um, as a total topic, I mean, you're right. It's extremely relevant topic. It's, it's, you know, very ever changing right now at 84 51. Privacy is, is first it's the foundation. Um, it it's table stakes and that's from a policy that's from a governance, it's from a technology capability standpoint. And it's part of our, our culture because, um, it, it, because it has to be, uh, and, and so when we, when we think about, you know, the products that we're gonna build, how we want to implement, it's, it's a requirement that we leverage technologies that enable us to secure the governance and ensure that we're privacy compliant. Um, the customer data asset that we have is, is, you know, is extremely valuable as we've talked about in this interview, it's also responsibility. And we take that very, very seriously. And so, you know, Dave, back to your question about, you know, decisions to go, you know, open source or leverage for technologies. So there's always a balance. You know, we, we love to push the, the bounds of innovation and, and we wanna be on the forefront of data, sharing data, science, collaboration for this industry. But at the same time, we balance that with making sure that our technology partners are the right ones, because we are not willing to compromise our governance and our fir and our, our privacy, uh, priorities. >>That's gonna be interesting to see how that evolves. And I, I loved that. Frank was so candid about it. I think the key for any cloud player, including a super cloud is you gotta have an ecosystem without an ecosystem. Forget it. And you see a lot of companies. I mean, we were at Dell tech world. They're kind of, they're at the beginnings of that, but the ecosystems, nothing like this, right. Which is amazing, nothing against, against Dell, they're just kind of getting started and you have to be open. You have to have optionality. Yep. You know, so I, I don't know if we'll see the day where they're including data, bricks, data lakes inside of the snowflake cloud. That will be amazing. <laugh> but you know, you never say never in the world of cloud, >>Do you stranger things, Rosemary and Patrick, thank you so much for joining us talking about what 84 51 is doing powered by snowflake and also the rise of the snowflake retail cloud and what that's doing. We'll have to have you back on to hear what's going on as I'm sure the adoption will continue to increase. Absolutely. Thank you so much to both for having us, our pleasure. You appreciate this for our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante stick around Dave will be back with Frankman CEO of snowflake. Next. You won't wanna miss it.

>>Welcome back to Vegas. Lisa Martin here covering snowflake summit 22. We are live at Caesar's forum. A lot of guests here about 10,000 attendees, actually 10,000 plus a lot of folks here at the momentum and the buzz. I gotta tell you the last day and a half we've been covering this event is huge. It's probably some of the biggest we've seen in a long time. We're very pleased to welcome back. One of our cube alumni to the program, Ron Tayo principal and chief data officer at Deloitte one. It's great to have you joining us. >>Yeah, no, thank you. Super excited to be here with you today. >>Isn't it great to be back in person? Oh, >>I love it. I mean the, the energy, the, you know, connections that we're making definitely, definitely loving and loving the experience. >>Good experience, but the opportunity to connect with customers. Yes. I'm hearing a lot of conversations from snowflake folks from their partners like Deloitte from customers themselves. Like it's so great to be back in person. And they're really talking about some of the current challenges that are being faced by so many industries. >>That's right. Oh, that, that is, you know, I would say as a consultant, you know, it all comes down to that personal connection and that relationship. And so I am, I'm all for this and love, you know, being able to connect with our customers. >>Yeah. Talk to me about the Deloitte snowflake partnership. Obviously a ton of news announced from snowflake yesterday. Snowflake is a rocket ship. Talk to us about the partnership, what you guys do together, maybe some joint customer examples. >>Yeah. I mean, so snowflake is a strategic Alliance partner. We won the, you know, SI partner of the year award and for us, the, the shift and the opportunity to help our clients modernize and achieve a level of data maturity in their journey is, is strategically it's super important. And it's really about how do we help them leverage, you know, snowflake has underlying data platform to ultimately achieve, you know, broader goals around, you know, their business strategy. And our approach is always very much connected to overarching business strategies and sense of, is it a finance transformation, a supply chain transformation, a customer transformation, and what are the goals of those transformations and how do we ensure that data is a critical component to enabling that and with, you know, technologies and vendors and partners like snowflake, allowing us to even do that at a faster, better, cheaper pace only increases the overall business case and the value and the impact that it generates. >>And so we are super, super excited about our partnership with snowflake and we believe, you know, the journey is very, very bright. You know, we, this is the future, you know, often tell folks that, you know, data has and will continue to be more valuable than sort of the systems that own it and manage it. And I think we're starting to see that. I think the topic that I discussed today around data collaboration and data sharing is an example of how we're starting to see, you know, the importance and the value of data, you know, become way more important and more of the focus around the strategy for, for organizations >>As the chief data officer, what do data sharing and data collaboration mean to somebody in your position and what are some of the conversations you have with customer other CDOs at customer organizations? >>Yeah, so, so my role is, is sort of twofold. I, I am responsible for our internal data strategy. So when you think about Deloitte as a professional service organization, across four unique businesses, I am a customer of snowflake in our own data modernization journey, and we have our own strategy on how and what we share, not only internally across our businesses, but also externally across, you know, our partners. So, so I bring that perspective, but then I also am a client service professional and serve our clients in their own journey. So I often feel very privileged in, in the opportunity to be able to sort of not only share my own experience from a Deloitte perspective, but also in how we help our clients >>Talk about data maturation. You mentioned, you know, the volume of data just only continues to grow. We've seen so much growth in the last two years alone of data. We've seen all of us be so dependent on things like media and entertainment and retail, eCommerce, healthcare, and life sciences. What, how do you define data maturation and how does Deloitte and snowflake help companies create a pathway to get there? >>Yeah. Yeah. So I would say step one for us is all about the overarching business strategy. And when you sort of double click on the big, broad business strategy and what that means from a data strategy perspective, we have to develop business models where there is an economical construct to the value of data. And it's extremely important specifically when we talk about sharing and collaborating data, I would say the, the, the, the assumption or the, or, or, or, or the posture typically seems to be, it's a one way relationship, our strategy and what we're pushing, you know, again, not only internally within ourselves, but also with our clients, is it has to be a bidirectional relationship. And so you, you hear of, of the concepts of, you know, the, the, the data clean room where you have two partners coming together and agreeing with certain terms to share data bidirectionally. Like I do believe that is the future in how we need to do, you know, more data collaboration, more data sharing at a scale that we've not quite seen. Yes. Yet >>The security and privacy areas are increasingly critical. We've seen the threat landscape change so dramatically the last couple of years, it's not, will we get hit by a cyber talk? It's when yes. For every industry, right? The privacy legislation that just we've seen it with GDPR, CCPA is gonna become CPR in California, other states doing the same thing. How do you help customers kind of balance that line of being able to share data equitably between organizations between companies do so in a secure way, and in a way that ensures data privacy will be maintained. >>Yeah. Yeah. So first absolutely recognizing, evolving, recognize the evolving regulatory landscape. You mentioned, you know, California, there's actually now 22 states that have a, is it 22 now? Right? Yeah. 22 states that have a privacy act enacted. And our projection is in the next 12 to 18 months, all states will have one. And so absolutely a, a perceived challenge, but one that I think is, is addressable. And, and I think that gets to the spirit of the question for us. There's, there's four dimensions that an organization needs to work through when it comes to data sharing. The first one is back to the, the business goal and objective, like, is there truly a business need? And is there value in sharing data? And it needs to have a very solid business model. Okay. So, so that's the first step. The second step is what are the legal terms? >>What are the legal terms? What can you do? What can't you do? Do you have primary rights, secondary rights? The third dimension is around risk. What is the risk and exposure, not only from a data security perspective, but what is the risk if someone uses a data inappropriately, and then the fourth one is around ethics and the ethical use of data. And we see lots of examples where an organization has consent has rights to the data, but the way they used it might have not necessarily been, you know, among the kind of ethical framing. And so for us, those four dimensions is what guides us and our clients in developing a very robust data, sharing data collaboration framework that ensures it's connected to the overall business strategy, but it provides enough of the guardrails to minimize legal and ethical risk. So >>With that in mind, what do the customer conversations look like? Cause you gotta have a lot of players, the business folks, the data folks, every line of business needs data for its functions. Talk to us about how the customer conversations and projects have evolved as data is increasingly important to every line of business. >>Yes. I would say the biggest channel, or maybe the, the, the denominator at this point that we're seeing bring the, let's say diversity of needs to more common denominator has been AI. So every organization at this point is driving massive AI programs. And in order to really scale AI, you know, the, the algorithm cannot execute without data. Yeah. And so for us, at least in our experience with our customers, AI has almost been the, the, the mechanism to have these conversations across the different business stakeholders and do it in a way that, you know, you're not necessarily boiling the ocean, cuz I think that's the other element that makes this a bit hard is, well, what, what data do you want me to share and for what purpose? And when you start to bring it into sort of more individual swim lanes and, and, and our experience with our customers is AI has sort of been that mechanism to say, am I automating, you know, our factory floor? Am I bringing AI and how we engage and serve our customers? Right? Like it be, it be begins to sort of bring a little bit more of, of that repeatability at a, at an individual level. So that's been a, a really good strategy for us in our customers >>In terms of the customer's strategy and kind of looking forward, what are some of the things that excite you about the, the future of data collaboration, especially given all of the news that snowflake announced just yesterday? >>Yes. Yeah. I think for me, and this is both the little bit of the ambition, as well as the push, it's no longer a question of should it's it's how and for what? And so, so yes, I mean the, the, the snowflake data cloud is a network that allows us to integrate, you know, disparate and unique data assets that have never, you know, been possible before. Right. So we're in this network, it's now a matter of figuring out how to use that and for what purpose. And so I, I go back to, we, each individual organization needs to be figuring out the how, and for what not, when this is the future, we all need it. Yeah. And we just need to figure out how that fits in our individual businesses >>In terms of the, how that's such an interesting, I love how you bring that up. It's not, it's not when it's definitely how, because there's gonna be another competing business or several right there in the rear view mirror, ready to take your place. Yep. If you don't act quickly, how does Deloitte and snowflake help customers achieve the, how quickly enough to be able to really take advantage of data sharing and data collaboration so that they can be very competitive? >>Yeah. So there's two main, maybe even three driving forces in this. What we see is when there's a common purpose across director, indirect competitors and the need to share data. So I think the poster child of this was the pandemic, and we started to see organizations again, either competitively or non-com competitively share data in ways for a greater good, right. When there was a purpose, we believe when that element exists, the ability to share data is going to increase. We believe the next big sort of common purpose out there in the world is around ESG. And so that's gonna be a big driver for sharing data. So that's one element. The other one is the concept of developing integrated value chains. So when you think about any individual business and sort of where they are in that piece of the value chain, developing more integrated value across, let's say a manufacturer of goods with a distributor of those goods that ultimately get to an end customer. >>They're not sharing data in a meaningful way to really maximize their overall, you know, profitability. And so that's another really good, meaningful example that we're seeing is where there's value across, you know, a, what appears to be a siloed set of steps, and really looking at it more as an integrated value chain, the need to share data is the only way to unlock that. And so that's, that's the second one. The, the third one I would say is, is around the need to address the consumer across sort of the multiple personas that we all individually sit. Right? So I go into a bank and I'm, I'm a client. I walk into a retail store and I'm a customer. I walk into my physician's office and I'm a patient at the end of the day. I am still the same person. I am still one. And so that consumer element and the convergence of how we are engaging and serving that consumer is the third, big shift that is really going to bring data collaboration and sharing to the next level. >>Do you think snowflake is, is the right partner of the defacto for delight to do that with? >>Absolutely. I think, you know, the head start of the cloud, the data cloud platform and the network that it's already established with all the sort of data privacy and security constraints around it. Like that's a big, that's a big, you know, check right. That we don't have to worry about. It's there for sure. >>Awesome. Sounds like a great partnership, Juan. Thank you so much for joining me on the program. It's great to have you back on the cube in person sharing what Deloitte and snowflake are doing and how you're really helping to transform organizations across every industry. We appreciate >>Your insights. Yeah. No, thank you for having me here. My pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you. >>All right. For Juan. I am Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from snowflake summit 22 at Caesar's forum. You write back with our next guest.

(Upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage day two Snowflake Summit '22 live from Caesar's forum in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante, bringing you wall to wall coverage yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We're excited to welcome Matthew Carroll to the program. The CEO of Immuta, we're going to be talking about removing barriers to secure data access security. Matthew, welcome. >> Thank you for having me, appreciate it. >> Talk to the audience a little bit about Immuta you're a Snowflake premier technology partner, but give him an overview of Immuta what you guys do, your vision, all that good stuff. >> Yeah, absolutely, thanks. Yeah, if you think about what Immunta at it's core is, we're a data security platform for the modern data stack, right? So what does that mean? It means that we embed natively into a Snowflake and we enforce policies on data, right? So, the rules to be able to use it, to accelerate data access, right? So, that means connecting to the data very easily controlling it with any regulatory or security policy on it as well as contractual policies, and then being able to audit it. So, that way, any corporation of any size can leverage their data and share that data without risking leaking it or potentially violating a regulation. >> What are some of the key as we look at industry by industry challenges that Immuta is helping those customers address and obviously quickly since everything is accelerating. >> Yeah. And it's, you're seeing it 'cause the big guys like Snowflake are verticalizing, right? You're seeing a lot of industry specific, you know, concepts. With us, if you think of, like, where we live obviously policies on data regulated, right? So healthcare, how do we automate HIPAA compliance? How do we redesign clinical trial management post COVID, right? If you're going to have billions of users and you're collecting that data, pharmaceutical companies can't wait to collect that data. They need to remove those barriers. So, they need to be able to collect it, secure it, and be able to share it. Right? So, double and triple blinded studies being redesigned in the cloud. Government organizations, how do we share security information globally with different countries instantaneously? Right? So these are some of the examples where we're helping organizations transform and be able to kind of accelerate their adoption of data. >> Matt, I don't know if you remember, I mean, I know you remember coming to our office. But we had an interesting conversation and I was telling Lisa. Years ago I wrote a piece of you know, how to build on top of, AWS. You know, there's so much opportunity. And we had a conversation, at our office, theCUBE studios in Marlborough, Massachusetts. And we both, sort of, agreed that there was this new workload emerging. We said, okay, there's AWS, there's Snowflake at the time, we were thinking, and you bring machine learning, at time where we were using data bricks, >> Yeah. >> As the example, of course now it's been a little bit- >> Yeah. Careful. >> More of a battle, right, with those guys. But, and so, you see them going in their different directions, but the premise stands is that there's an ecosystem developing, new workloads developing, on top of the hyper scale infrastructure. And you guys play a part in that. So, describe what you're seeing there 'cause you were right on in that conversation. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's nice to be, right. >> Yeah. So when you think of this design pattern, right, is you have a data lake, you have a warehouse, and you have an exchange, right? And this architecture is what you're seeing around you now, is this is every single organization in the world is adopting this design pattern. The challenge that where we fit into kind of a sliver of this is, the way we used to do before is application design, right? And we would build lots of applications, and we would build all of our business logic to enforce security controls and policies inside each app. And you'd go through security and get it approved. In this paradigm, any user could potentially access any data. There's just too many data sources, too many users, and too many things that can go wrong. And to scale that is really hard. So, like, with Immuta, what we've done, versus what everyone else has done is we natively embedded into every single one of those compute partners. So ,Snowflake, data breaks, big query, Redshift, synapse on and on. Natively underneath the covers, so that was BI tools, those data science tools hit Snowflake. They don't have to rewrite any of their code, but we automatically enforce policy without them having to do anything. And then we consistently audit that. I call that the separation of policy from platform. So, just like in the world in big data, when we had to separate compute from storage, in this world, because we're global, right? So we're, we have a distributed workforce and our data needs to abide by all these new security rules and regulations. We provide a flexible framework for them to be able to operate at that scale. And we're the only ones in the world doing it. >> Dave Vellante: See the key there is, I mean, Snowflake is obviously building out its data cloud and the functions that it's building in are quite impressive. >> Yeah. >> Dave Vellante: But you know at some point a customer's going to say, look I have other stuff, whether it's in an Oracle database, or data lake or wherever, and that should just be a node on this global, whatever you want to call it, mesh or fabric. And then if I'm hearing you right, you participate in all of that. >> Correct? Yeah We kind of, we were able to just natively inject into each, and then be able to enforce that policy consistently, right? So, hey, can you access HIPAA data? Who are you? Are you authorized to use this? What's the purpose you want to query this data? Is it for fraud? Is it for marketing? So, what we're trying to do as part of this new design paradigm is ensure that we can automate nearly the entire data access process, but with the confidence and de-risk it, that's kind of the key thing. But the one thing I will mention is I think we talk a lot about the core compute, but I think, especially at this summit, data sharing is everything. Right? And this concept of no copy data sharing, because the data is too big and there's too many sets to share, that's the keys to the kingdom. You got to get your lake and your warehouse set with good policy, so you can effectively share it. >> Yeah, so, I wanted to just to follow up, if I may. So, you'd mentioned separating compute from storage and a lot of VC money poured into that. A lot of VC money poured into cloud database. How do you see, do you see Snowflake differentiating substantially from all the other cloud databases? And how so? >> I think it's the ease of use, right? Apple produces a phone that isn't much different than other competitors. Right? But what they do is, end to end, they provide an experience that's very simple. Right? And so yes. Are there other warehouses? Are there other ways to, you know you heard about their analytic workloads now, you know through unistore, where they're going to be able to process analytical workloads as well as their ad hoc queries. I think other vendors are obviously going to have the same capabilities, but I think the user experience of Snowflake right now is top tier. Right? Is I can, whether I'm a small business, I can load my debt in there and build an app really quickly. Or if I'm a JP Morgan or, you know, a West Farmer's I can move legacy, you know monolithic architectures in there in months. I mean, these are six months transitions. When think about 20 years of work is now being transitioned to the cloud in six months. That's the difference. >> So measuring ease of views and time to value, time to market. >> Yeah. That's it's everything is time to value. No one wants to manage the infrastructure. In the Hudup world, no one wants to have expensive customized engineers that are, you know, keeping up your Hudup infrastructure any longer. Those days are completely over. >> Can you share an example of a joint customer, where really the joint value proposition that Immuta and Snowflake bring, are delivering some pretty substantial outcomes? >> Yeah. I, what we're seeing is and we're obviously highly incentivized to get them in there because it's easier on us, right? Because we can leverage their row and com level security. We can leverage their features that they've built in to provide a better experience to our customers. And so when we talk about large banks, they're trying to move Terra data workloads into Snowflake. When we talk about clinical trial management, they're trying to get away from physical copies of data, and leverage the exchanges of mechanism, so you can manage data contracts, right? So like, you know, when we think of even like a company like Latch, right? Like Latch uses us to be able to oversee all of the consumer data they have. Without like a Snowflake, what ends up happening is they end up having to double down and invest on their own people building out all their own infrastructure. And they don't have the capital to invest in third party tools like us that keep them safe, prevent data leaks, allow them to do more and get more value out of their data, which is what they're good at. >> So TCO reduction I'm hearing. >> Matthew Carroll: Yes, exactly. >> Matt, where are you as a company, you've obviously made a lot of progress since we last talked. Maybe give us the update on you know, the headcount, and fundraising, and- >> Yeah, we're just at about 250 people, which scares me every day, but it's awesome. But yeah, we've just raised 100 million dollars- >> Lisa Martin: Saw that, congratulations. >> Series E, thank you, with night dragon leading it. And night dragon was very tactical as well. We are moving, we found that data governance, I think what you're seeing in the market now is the catalog players are really maturing, and they're starting to add a suite of features around governance, right? So quality control, observability, and just traditional asset management around their data. What we are finding is is that there's a new gap in this space, right? So if you think about legacy it's we had infrastructure security we had the four walls and we protect our four walls. Then we moved to network security. We said, oh, the adversary is inside zero trust. So, let's protect all of our endpoints, right? But now we're seeing is data is the security flaw data could be, anyone could potentially access it in this organization. So how do we protect data? And so what we have matured into is a data security company. What we have found is, there's this next generation of data security products that are missing. And it's this blend between authentication like an, an Okta or an AuthO and auth- I'm sorry, authorization. Like Immuta, where we're authorizing certain access. And we have to pair together, with the modern observability, like a data dog, to provide an a layer above this modern data stack, to protect the data to analyze the users, to look for threats. And so Immuta has transformed with this capital. And we brought Dave DeWalt onto our board because he's a cybersecurity expert, he gives us that understanding of what is it like to sell into this modern cyber environment. So now, we have this platform where we can discover data, analyze it, tag it, understand its risk, secure it to author and enforce policies. And then monitor, the key thing is monitoring. Who is using the data? Why are they using the data? What are the risks to that? In order to enforce the security. So, we are a data security platform now with this raise. >> Okay. That, well, that's a new, you know, vector for you guys. I always saw you as an adjacency, but you're saying smack dab in the heart >> Matthew Carroll: Yes. Yeah. We're jumping right in. What we've seen is there is a massive global gap. Data is no longer just in one country. So it is, how do we automate policy enforcement of regulatory oversight, like GDPR or CCPA, which I think got this whole category going. But then we quickly realized is, well we have data jurisdiction. So, where does that data have to live? Where can I send it to? Because from Europe to us, what's the export treaty? We don't have defined laws anymore. So we needed a flexible framework to handle that. And now what we're seeing is data leaks, upon data leaks, and you know, the Snowflakes and the other cloud compute vendors, the last thing they ever want is a data leak out of their ecosystem. So, the security aspects are now becoming more and more important. It's going to be an insider threat. It's someone that already has access to that and has the rights to it. That's going to be the risk. And there is no pattern for a data scientist. There's no zero trust model for data. So we have to create that. >> How are you, last question, how are you going to be using a 100 million raised in series E funding, which you mentioned, how are you going to be leveraging that investment to turn the volume up on data security? >> Well, and we still have also another 80 million still in the bank from our last raise, so 180 million now, and potentially more soon, we'll kind of throw that out there. But, the first thing is M and A I believe in a recessing market, we're going to see these platforms consolidate. Larger customer of ours are driving us to say, Hey, we need less tools. We need to make this easier. So we can go faster. They're, even in a recessing market, these customers are not going to go slower. They're moving in the cloud as fast as possible, but it needs to be easier, right? It's going back to the mid nineties kind of Lego blocks, right? Like the IBM, the SAP, the Informatica, right? So that's number one. Number two is investing globally. Customer success, engineering, support, 24 by seven support globally. Global infrastructure on cloud, moving to true SaaS everywhere in the world. That's where we're going. So sales, engineering, and customer success globally. And the third is, is doubling down on R and D. That monitor capability, we're going to be building software around. How do we monitor and understand risk of users, third parties. So how do you handle data contracts? How do you handle data use agreements? So those are three areas we're focused on. >> Dave Vellante: How are you scaling go to market at this point? I mean, I presume you are. >> Yeah, well, I think as we're leveraging these types of engagements, so like our partners are the big cloud compute vendors, right? Those data clouds. We're injecting as much as we can into them and helping them get more workloads onto their infrastructure because it benefits us. And then obviously we're working with GSIs and then RSIs to kind of help with this transformation, but we're all in, we're actually deprecating support of legacy connectors. And we're all in on cloud compute. >> How did the pivot to all in on security, how did it affect your product portfolio? I mean, is that more positioning or was there other product extensions that where you had to test product market fit? >> Yeah. This comes out of customer drive. So we've been holding customer advisory boards across Europe, Asia and U.S. And what we just saw was a pattern of some of these largest banks and pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies in the world was, hey we need to understand who is actually on our data. We have a better understanding of our data now, but we don't actually understand why they're using our data. Why are they running these types of queries? Is this machine, you know logic, that we're running on this now, we invested all this money in AI. What's the risk? They just don't know. And so, yeah, it's going to change our product portfolio. We modularized our platform to the street components over the past year, specifically now, so we can start building custom applications on top of it, for specific users like the CSO, like, you know, the legal department, and like third party regulators to come in, as well as as going back to data sharing, to build data use agreements between one or many entities, right? So an SMP global can expose their data to third parties and have one consistent digital contract, no more long memo that you have to read the contract, like, Immuta can automate those data contracts between one or many entities. >> Dave Vellante: And make it a checkbox item. >> It's just a checkbox, but then you can audit it all, right? >> The key thing is this, I always tell people, there's negligence and gross negligence. Negligence, you can go back and fix something, gross negligence you don't have anything to put into controls. Regulators want you to be at least negligent, grossly negligent. They get upset. (laughs) >> Matthew, it sounds like great stuff is going on at Immuta, lots of money in the bank. And it sounds like a very clear and strategic vision and direction. We thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE this morning. >> Thank you so much >> For our guest and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE's coverage of day two, Snowflake Summit '22, coming at ya live, from the show floor in Las Vegas. Be right back with our next guest. (Soft music)

(ethereal music) >> Good morning, everyone, and welcome to theCUBE's day-two coverage of Snowflake Summit '22. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We are live in Las Vegas at Caesar's Forum, looking forward to an action-packed day here on theCUBE. Our first guest joins us, Bill Stratton, the global industry lead, media, entertainment and advertising at Snowflake. Bill, great to have you on the program talking about industry specifics. >> Glad to be here, excited to have a conversation. >> Yeah, the media and entertainment industry has been keeping a lot of us alive the last couple of years, probably more of a dependence on it than we've seen stuck at home. Talk to us about the data culture in the media, entertainment and advertising landscape, how is data being used today? >> Sure. Well, let's start with what you just mentioned, these last couple of years, I think, coming out of the pandemic, a lot of trends and impact to the media industry. I think there were some things happening prior to COVID, right? Streaming services were starting to accelerate. And obviously, Netflix was an early mover. Disney launched their streaming service right before the pandemic, Disney+, with ESPN+ as well. I think then, as the pandemic occurred these last two years, the acceleration of consumers' habits, obviously, of not just unbundling their cable subscription, but then choosing, you know, what services they want to subscribe to, right? I mean, I think we all sort of grew up in this era of, okay, the bundle was the bundle, you had sports, you had news, you had entertainment, whether you watched the channel or not, you had the bundle. And what the pandemic has accelerated is what I call, and I think a lot of folks call, the golden age of content. And really, the golden age of content is about the consumer. They're in control now, they pick and choose what services they want, what they watch, when they watch it. And I think that has extremely, sort of accelerated this adoption on the consumer side, and then it's creating this data ecosystem, as a result of companies like Disney having a direct-to-consumer relationship for the first time. It used to be a Disney or an NBC was a wholesaler, and the cable or satellite company had the consumer data and relationship. Now, the companies that are producing the content have the data and the consumer relationships. It's a fascinating time. >> And they're still coming over the top on the Telco networks, right? >> Absolutely right. >> Telco's playing in this game? >> Yeah, Telco is, I think what the interesting dynamic with Telco is, how do you bundle access, high speed, everybody still needs high speed at their home, with content? And so I think it's a similar bundle, but it takes on a different characteristic, because the cable and Telcos are not taking the content risk. AT&T sold Warner Media recently, and I think they looked at it and said, we're going to stay with the infrastructure, let somebody else do the content. >> And I think I heard, did I hear this right the other day, that Roku is now getting into the content business? >> Roku is getting into it. And they were early mover, right? They said the TVs aren't, the operating system in the television is not changing fast enough for content. So their dongle that you would slide into a TV was a great way to get content on connected televisions, which is the fastest growing platform. >> I was going to say, what are the economics like in this business? Because the bundles were sort of a limiting factor, in terms of the TAM. >> Yeah. >> And now, we get great content, all right, to watch "Better Call Saul", I have to get AMC+ or whatever. >> You know, your comment, your question about the economics and the TAM is an interesting one, because I think we're still working through it. One of the things, I think, that's coming to the forefront is that you have to have a subscription revenue stream. Okay? Netflix had a subscription revenue stream for the last six, eight, 10 years, significantly, but I think you even see with Netflix that they have to go to a second revenue model, which is going to be an ad-supported model, right? We see it in the press these last couple days with Reid Hastings. So I think you're going to see, obviously subscription, obviously ad-supported, but the biggest thing, back to the consumer, is that the consumer's not going to sit through two minutes of advertising to watch a 22 minute show. >> Dave: No way. >> Right? So what's then going to happen is that the content companies want to know what's relevant to you, in terms of advertising. So if I have relevancy in my ad experience, then it doesn't quite feel, it's not intrusive, and it's relevant to my experience. >> And the other vector in the TAM, just one last follow-up, is you see Amazon, with Prime, going consumption. >> Bill: That's right. >> You get it with Prime, it's sort of there, and the movies aren't the best in the world, but you can buy pretty much any movie you want on a consumption basis. >> Yeah. Just to your last quick point, there is, we saw last week, the Boston Red Sox are bundling tickets, season tickets, with a subscription to their streaming service. >> NESN+, I think it is, yeah. So just like Prime, NESN+- >> And it's like 30 bucks a month. >> -just like Prime bundling with your delivery service, you're going to start to see all kinds of bundles happen. >> Dave: Interesting. >> Man, the sky is the limit, it's like it just keeps going and proliferating. >> Bill: It does. >> You talk about, on the ad side for a second, you mentioned the relevance, and we expect that as consumers, we're so demanding, (clears throat) excuse me, we don't have the patience, one of the things I think that was in short supply during COVID, and probably still is, is patience. >> That's right. >> I think with all of us, but we expect that brands know us enough to surf up the content that they think we watched, we watched "Breaking Bad", "Better Call Saul", don't show me other things that aren't relevant to the patterns I've been showing you, the content creators have to adapt quickly to the rising and changing demands of the consumer. >> That's right. Some people even think, as you go forward and consumers have this expectation, like you just mentioned, that brands not only need to understand their own view of the consumer, and this is going to come into the Snowflake points that we talk about in a minute, but the larger view that a brand has about a consumer, not just their own view, but how they consume content, where they consume it, what other brands they even like, that all builds that picture of making it relevant for the consumer and viewer. >> Where does privacy come into the mix? So we want it to be relevant and personalized in a non-creepy way. Talk to us about the data clean rooms that Snowflake launched, >> Bill: That's right. >> and how is that facilitating from a PII perspective, or is it? >> Yeah. Great question. So I think the other major development, in addition to the pandemic, driving people watching all these shows is the fact that privacy legislation is increasing. So we started with California with the CCPA, we had GDPR in Europe, and what we're starting to see is state by state roll out different privacy legislations. At some point, it may be true that we have a federal privacy legislation, and there are some bills that are working through the legislature right now. Hard to tell what's going to happen. But to your question, the importance of privacy, and respecting privacy, is exactly happening at the same time that media companies and publishers need to piece together all the viewing habits that you have. You've probably watched, already this morning, on your PC, on your phone, and in order to bring that experience together a media company has to be able to tie that together, right? Collaborate. So you have collaboration on one side, and then you have privacy on the other, and they're not necessarily, normally, go together, Right? They're opposing forces. So now though, with Snowflake, and our data clean room, we like to call it a data collaboration platform, okay? It's not really what a data warehouse function traditionally has been, right? So if I can take data collaboration, and our clean room, what it does is it brings privacy controls to the participants. So if I'm an advertiser, and I'm a publisher, and I want to collaborate to create an advertising campaign, they both can design how they want to do that privacy-based collaboration, Because it's interesting, one company might have a different perspective of privacy, on a risk profile, than another company. So it's very hard to say one size is going to fit all. So what we at Snowflake do, with our infrastructure, is let you design how you create your own clean room. >> Is that a differentiator for Snowflake, the clean rooms? >> It's absolutely a very big differentiator. Two reasons, or probably two, three reasons, really. One is, it's cross cloud. So all the advertisers aren't going to be in the same cloud, all the publishers aren't going to be in the same cloud. One big differentiator there. Second big differentiator is, we want to be able to bring applications to the data, so our clean room can enable you to create measurement against an ad campaign without moving your data. So bringing measurement to the data, versus sending data to applications then improves the privacy. And then the third one is, frankly, our pricing model. You only pay for Snowflake what you use. So in the advertising world, there's what's called an ad tech tax, there is no ad tech tax for Snowflake, because we're simply a pay-as-you-go service. So it's a very interesting dynamic. >> So what's that stack look like, in your world? So I've pulled up Frank's chart, I took a picture of his, he's called it the new, modern data stack, I think he called it, but it had infrastructure in the bottom, okay, that's AWS, Google, Azure, and then a lot of you, live data, that would be the media data cloud, the workload execution, the specific workload here is media and entertainment, and then application development, that's a new layer of value that you're bringing in, marketplace, which is the whole ecosystem, and then monetization comes from building on top. >> Bill: Yes. >> So I got AWS in there, and other clouds, you got a big chunk of that, where do your customers add value on top of that? >> Yeah. So the way you described it, I think, with Frank's point, is right on. You have the infrastructure. We know that a lot of advertisers, for example, aren't going to use Amazon, because the retailer competes with Amazon, So they want to might be in Google or Azure. And then sort of as you go up the stack, for the data layer that is Snowflake, especially what we call first-party data, is sitting in that Snowflake environment, right? But that Snowflake environment is a distributed environment, so a Disney, who was on stage with me yesterday, she talked about, Jaya talked about their first-party datas in Snowflake, their advertisers' datas in their own Snowflake account, in their own infrastructure. And then what's interesting is is that application layer is coming to the data, and so what we're really seeing is an acceleration of companies building that application natively on Snowflake to do measurement, to do targeting, to do activation. And so, that growth of that final application layer is what we're seeing as the acceleration in the stack. >> So the more data that's in that massive distributed data cloud, the more value your customers can get out of it. And I would imagine you're just looking to tick things off that where customers are going outside of the Snowflake data cloud, let's attack that so they don't have to. >> Yeah, I think these partners, (clears throat) excuse me, and customers, it's an interesting dynamic, because they're customers of ours. But now, because anybody who is already in Snowflake can be their customer, then they're becoming our partner. So it's an interesting dynamic, because we're bringing advertisers to a Disney or an NBCU, because they already have their data in Snowflake. So the network effect that's getting created because of this layer that's being built is accelerated. >> In 2013, right after the second reinvent, I wrote a piece called "How to Compete with the Amazon Gorilla." And it seemed to us pretty obvious at the time, you're not going to win an infrastructure again, you got to build on top of it, you got to build ecosystems within industries, and the data, the connection points, that network effect that you just talked about, it's actually quite thrilling to see you guys building that. >> Well, and I think you know this too, I mean, Amazon's a great partner of ours as well, right? So they're part of our media data cloud, as Amazon, right? So we're making it easier and easier for companies to be able to spin up a clean room in places like AWS, so that they get the privacy controls and the governance that's required as well. >> What do you advise to, say, the next generation of media and advertising companies who may be really early in the data journey? Obviously, there's competition right here in the rear view mirror, but we've seen services that launch and fail, what do you advise to those folks that maybe are early in the journey and how can Snowflake help them accelerate that to be able to launch services they can monetize, and get those consumers watching? >> I think the first thing for a lot of these brands is that they need to really own their data. And what I mean by that is, they need to understand the consumer relationship that they have, they need to take the privacy and the governance very seriously, and they need to start building that muscle. It's almost, it's a routine and a muscle that they just need to continue to kind of build up, because if you think about it, a media company spends two, three hours a day with their customer. You might watch two hours of a streaming show, but how much time do you spend with a single brand a day? Maybe 30 seconds, maybe 10 seconds, right? And so, their need to build the muscle, to be able to collect the data in a privacy-compliant way, build the intelligence off of that, and then leverage the intelligence. We talked about it a few days ago, and you look at a retailer, as a really good example, a retailer is using Snowflake and the retail data cloud to optimize their supply chain. Okay? But their supply chain extends beyond their own infrastructure to the advertising and marketing community, because if I can't predict demand, how do I then connect it to my supply chain? So our media data cloud is helping retailers and consumer product goods companies actually drive demand into their reconstructed supply chain. So they both work together. >> So you have a big focus, obviously, on the monetization piece, of course, that's a great place to start. Where do you see the media data cloud going? >> Yeah. I think we'll start to expand beyond advertising and beyond marketing. There's really important sub-segments of media. Gaming is one. You talk about the pandemic and teenagers playing games on their phones. So we'll have an emphasis around gaming. We'll have an emphasis in sports. Sports is going through a big change in an ecosystem. And there's a big opportunity to connect the dots in those ecosystems as well. And then I think, to what we were just talking about, I think connecting commerce and media is a very important area. And I think the two are still very loosely connected today. It used to be, could I buy the Jennifer Aniston sweater from "Friends", right? That was always the analogy. Now, media and social media, and TikTok and everything else, are combining media and commerce very closely. So I think we'll start to see more focus around that as well. So that adds to your monetization. >> Right, right. And you can NFT that. (Lisa laughs) >> Bill: That's right, there you go, you can mint an NFT on that. >> It's the tip of the iceberg. >> Absolutely. >> There's so much more potential to go. Bill, thank you so much for joining us bright and early this morning, talking about what snowflake is doing in media, entertainment and advertising. Exciting stuff, relevant to all of us, we appreciate your insights and your forward-looking statements. >> Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. >> Our pleasure. >> Thank you. >> Good >> Bill: Bye now. >> For our guest and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're up early with us watching theCUBE's day-two coverage of Snowflake Summit '22. We'll be back in a moment with our next guest. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to this "CUBE Conversation" featuring Dremio. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. And I'm excited today to be joined by Mark Lyons the VP of product management at Dremio. Mark thanks for joining us today. >> Hey Lisa, thank you for having me. Looking forward to the top. >> Yeah. Talk to me about what's going on at Dremio. I had the chance to talk to your chief product officer Tomer Shiran in a couple months ago but talk to us about what's going on. >> Yeah, I remember that at re:Invent it's been an exciting few months since re:Invent here at Dremio and just in the new year we raised our Series E since then we ran into our subsurface event which we had over seven, 8,000 registrants and attendees. And then we announced our Dremio cloud product generally available including Dremio Sonar, which is SQL query engine and Dremio Arctic in public preview which is a better store for the lakehouse. >> Great. And we're going to dig into both of those. I saw that over 400 million raised in that Series E raising the valuation of Dremio to 2 billion. So a lot of growth and momentum going on at the company I'm sure. If we think about businesses in any industry they've made large investments in data warehouses, proprietary data warehouses. Talk to me about historically what they've been able to achieve, but then what some those bottlenecks are that they're running into. >> Yeah, for sure. My background is actually in the data warehouse space. I spent over the last eight, maybe close to 10 years and we've seen this shift go on from the traditional enterprise data warehouse to the data lake to the the last couple years is really been the time of the cloud data warehouse. And there's been a large amount of adoption of cloud data warehouses, but fundamentally they still come with a lot of the same challenges that have always existed with the data warehouse, which is first of all you have to load your data into it. So that data's coming from lots of different sources. In many cases, it's landing in a files in the data lake like a repository like S3 first. And then there's a loading process, right? An ETL process. And those pipelines have to be maintained and stay operational. And typically as the data warehouse life cycle of processing moves on the scope of the data that consumers get to access gets smaller and smaller. The control of that data gets tighter and change process gets heavier, and it goes from quick changes of adding a column or adding a field to a file to days if not weeks for businesses to modify their data pipelines and test new scenarios offer new features in the application or answer new questions that the business is interested you know, from an analytics standpoint. So typically we see the same thing even with these cloud data warehouses, the scope of the data shrinks, the time to get answers gets longer. And when new engines come along the same story we see, and this is going on right now in the data warehouse space there's new data that are coming and they say, well we're a thousand faster times faster than the last data warehouse. And then it's like, okay, great. But what's the process? The process is to migrate all your data to the new data warehouse, right? And that comes with all the same baggage. Again, it's a proprietary format that you load your data into. So I think people are ready for a change from that. >> People are not only ready for a change, but as every company has to become a data company these days and access to real time data is no longer a nice to have. It's absolutely essential. The ability to scale the ability to harness the value from as much data as possible and to do so fast is real really table stakes for any organization. How is Dremio helping customers in that situation to operationalize their data? >> Yeah, so that's why I was so intrigued and loved about Dremio when I joined three, four, five months back. Coming from the warehouse space, when I first saw the product I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so much easier for folks. They can access a larger scope of their data faster, which to your point, like is table stakes for all organizations these days they need to be able to analyze data sooner. Sooner is the better. Data has a halflife, right? Like it decays. The value of data decays over time. So typically the most valuable data is the newest data. And that all depends on what we're the industries we're talking about the types of data and the use cases, but it's always basically true that newer data is more valuable and they need to be able to analyze as much of it as possible. The story can't be, no, we have to wait weeks or months to get a new data source or the story can't be you know, that data that includes seasonality. You know, we weren't able to keep in the same location because it's too expensive to keep it in the warehouse or whatever. So for Dremio and our customers our story is simple, is leverage the data where it is so access data in all sorts of sources, whether it's a post press database or an S3 bucket, and don't move the data don't copy the data, analyze it in place. And don't limit the scope of the data you're trying to analyze. If you have new use cases you have additional data sets that you want to add to those use cases, just bring them in, into S3 and you are off to the races and you can easily analyze more data and give more power to the end user. So if there's a field that they want to calculate the simple change convert this miles field, the kilometers well, the end users should be empowered to just make a calculation on the data like that. That should not require an entire cycle through a data engineering team and a backlog and a ticket and pushing that to production and so forth which in many cases it does at many organizations. It's a lot of effort to make new calculations on the data or derive new fields, add a new column and so forth. So Dremio makes the data engineers life easier and more productive. It also makes the data consumers life much easier and happier, and they can just do their job without worrying about and waiting. >> Not only can they do their job but from a business, a high level perspective the business is probably has the opportunity to be far more competitive because it's got a bigger scope of data, as you mentioned, access to it more widely faster and those are only good things in terms of- >> More use cases, more experiments, right? So what I've seen a lot is like there's no shortage of ideas of what people can do with the data. And projects that might be able to be undertaken but no one knows exactly how valuable that will be. How whether that's something that should be funded or should not be funded. So like more use cases, more experiments try more things. Like if it's cheap to try these data problems and see if it's valuable to the business then that's better for the business. Ultimately the business will be more competitive. We'll be able to try more new products we'll be able to have better operational kind of efficiencies, lower risk all those things. >> Right. What about data governance? Talk to me about how the Lakehouse enables that across all these disparate data volumes. >> I think this is where things get really interesting with the Lakehouse concept relative to where we used to be with a data lake, which was a parking ground for just lots of files. And that came with a lot of challenges when you just had a lot of files out there in a data lake, whether that was HDFS, right. I do data lake back in the day or now a cloud storage object, storage data lake. So historically I feel like governance, access authentication, auditing all were extremely challenging with the data lake but now in the modern kind of lake in the modern lakehouse world, all those challenges have been solved. You have great everything from the front of the house with all and access policies and data masking everything that you would expect through commits and tables and transactions and inserts and updates and deletes, and auditing of that data able to see, well who made the changes to the data, which engine, which user when were they made and seeing the whole history of a table and not just one, not just a mess of files in a file store. So it's really come a long way. I feel like where the renaissance stage of the 2.0 data lakes or lakehouses as people call them. But basically what you're seeing is a lot of functionality from the traditional warehouse, all available in the lake. And warehouses had a lot of governance built in. And whether that is encryption and column access policies and row access policies. So only the right user saw the right data or some data masking. So that like the social security was masked out but the analyst knew it was a social security number. That was all there. Now that's all available on the lakehouse and you don't need to copy data into a data warehouse just to meet those type of requirements. Huge one is also deletes, right? Like I feel like deletes were one of the Achilles heels of the original data lake when there was no governance. And people were just copying data sets around modifying data sets for whatever their analytics use case was. If someone said, "Hey, go delete the right. To be forgotten GDPR." Now you've got Californias CCPA and others all coming online. If you said, go delete this per you know, this records or set of records from there from a lake original lake. I think that was impossible, probably for many people to do it with confidence, like to say that like I fully deleted this. Now with the Apache like iceberg cable format that is stores in the lakehouse architecture, you actually have delete functionality, right? Which is a key component that warehouses are traditionally brought to the table. >> That's a huge component from a compliance perspective. You mentioned GDPR, CCPA, which is going to be CPRA in less than a year, but there's so many other regulations data privacy regulations that are coming up that the ability to delete that is going to be table stakes for organizations, something that you guys launched. And we just have a couple minutes left, but you launched I love the name, the forever free data Lakehouse platform. That sounds great. Forever Free. Talk to me about what that really means is consisting of two products the Sonar and Arctic that you mentioned, but talk to me about this Forever Free data Lakehouse. >> Yeah. I feel like this is an amazing step forward in this, in the industry. And because of the Dremio cloud architecture, where the execution and data lives in the customer's cloud account we're able to basically say, hey, the Dremio software the Dremio service side of this platform is Forever Free for users. Now there is a paid tier but there's a standard tier that is truly forever free. Now that that still comes with infrastructure bills from like your cloud provider, right? So if you use AWS, you still have an S3 bill like for your data sets because we're not moving them. They're staying in your Amazon account in your S3 bucket. You still do still have to pay for right. The infrastructure, the EC2 and the compute to do the data analytics but the actual softwares is free forever. And there's no one else in our space offering that at in our space, everything's a free trial. So here's your $500 of credit. Come try my product. And what we're saying is with this kind of our unique architectural approach and this is what I think is preferred by customers too. You know, we take care of all the query planning all the engine management, all the administrative the platform, the upgrades fully available zero downtime platform. So they get all the benefits of SaaS as well as the benefits of maintaining control over their data. And because that data staying in their account and the execution of the analytics is staying in their account. We don't incur that infrastructure bill. So we can have a free forever tier a forever free tier of our platform. And we've had tremendous adoption. I think we announced this beginning of March first week of March. So it's not even the end of March. Hundreds and hundreds of signups and many customers actively are users actively on the platform now live querying their data >> Just kind of summarizes the momentum that Dremio we seeing. Mark, thank you so much. We're out of time, but thanks for talking to me- >> Thank you. >> About what's new at Dremio. What you guys are doing. Next time, we'll have to unpack this even more. I'm sure there's loads more we could talk about but we appreciate that. >> Yeah, this was great. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. >> My pleasure for Mark Lyons. I'm Lisa Martin. Keep it right here on theCUBE your leader in high tech hybrid event coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of women in data science, worldwide conference widths 2022. I'm Lisa Martin coming to you from Stanford university at the Arriaga alumni center. And I'm pleased to welcome my next guest. Hannah Sperling joins me business process intelligence or BPI, academic and research alliances at SAP HANA. Welcome to the program. >>Hi, thank you so much for having me. >>So you just flew in from Germany. >>I did last week. Yeah. Long way away. I'm very excited to be here. Uh, but before we get started, I would like to say that I feel very fortunate to be able to be here and that my heart and vicious still goes out to people that might be in more difficult situations right now. I agree >>Such a it's one of my favorite things about Wiz is the community that it's grown into. There's going to be about a 100,000 people that will be involved annually in woods, but you walk into the Arriaga alumni center and you feel this energy from all the women here, from what Margo and teams started seven years ago to what it has become. I was happened to be able to meet listening to one of the panels this morning, and they were talking about something that's just so important for everyone to hear, not just women, the importance of mentors and sponsors, and being able to kind of build your own personal board of directors. Talk to me about some of the mentors that you've had in the past and some of the ones that you have at SAP now. >>Yeah. Thank you. Um, that's actually a great starting point. So maybe talk a bit about how I got involved in tech. Yeah. So SAP is a global software company, but I actually studied business and I was hired directly from university, uh, around four years ago. And that was to join SAP's analytics department. And I've always had a weird thing for databases, even when I was in my undergrad. Um, I did enjoy working with data and so working in analytics with those teams and some people mentoring me, I got into database modeling and eventually ventured even further into development was working in analytics development for a couple of years. And yeah, still am with a global software provider now, which brought me to women and data science, because now I'm also involved in research again, because yeah, some reason couldn't couldn't get enough of that. Um, maybe learn about the stuff that I didn't do in my undergrad. >>And post-grad now, um, researching at university and, um, yeah, one big part in at least European data science efforts, um, is the topic of sensitive data and data privacy considerations. And this is, um, also topic very close to my heart because you can only manage what you measure, right. But if everybody is afraid to touch certain pieces of sensitive data, I think we might not get to where we want to be as fast as we possibly could be. And so I've been really getting into a data and anonymization procedures because I think if we could random a workforce data usable, especially when it comes to increasing diversity in stem or in technology jobs, we should really be, um, letting the data speak >>And letting the data speak. I like that. One of the things they were talking about this morning was the bias in data, the challenges that presents. And I've had some interesting conversations on the cube today, about data in health care data in transportation equity. Where do you, what do you think if we think of international women's day, which is tomorrow the breaking the bias is the theme. Where do you think we are from your perspective on breaking the bias that's across all these different data sets, >>Right. So I guess as somebody working with data on a daily basis, I'm sometimes amazed at how many people still seem to think that data can be unbiased. And this has actually touched upon also in the first keynote that I very much enjoyed, uh, talking about human centered data science people that believe that you can take the human factor out of any effort related to analysis, um, are definitely on the wrong path. So I feel like the sooner that we realize that we need to take into account certain bias sees that will definitely be there because data is humanly generated. Um, the closer we're going to get to something that represents reality better and might help us to change reality for the better as well, because we don't want to stick with the status quo. And any time you look at data, it's definitely gonna be a backward looking effort. So I think the first step is to be aware of that and not to strive for complete objectivity, but understanding and coming to terms with the fact just as it was mentioned in the equity panel, that that is logically impossible, right? >>That's an important, you bring up a really important point. It's important to understand that that is not possible, but what can we work with? What is possible? What can we get to, where do you think we are on the journey of being able to get there? >>I think that initiatives like widths of playing an important role in making that better and increasing that awareness there a big trend around explainability interpretability, um, an AI that you see, not just in Europe, but worldwide, because I think the awareness around those topics is increasing. And that will then, um, also show you the blind spots that you may still have, no matter how much you think about, um, uh, the context. Um, one thing that we still need to get a lot better at though, is including everybody in these types of projects, because otherwise you're always going to have a certain selection in terms of prospectus that you're getting it >>Right. That thought diversity there's so much value in thought diversity. That's something that I think I first started talking about thought diversity at a Wood's conference a few years ago, and really understanding the impact there that that can make to every industry. >>Totally. And I love this example of, I think it was a soap dispenser. I'm one of these really early examples of how technology, if you don't watch out for these, um, human centered considerations, how technology can, can go wrong and just, um, perpetuate bias. So a soap dispenser that would only recognize the hand, whether it was a certain, uh, light skin type that w you know, be placed underneath it. So it's simple examples like that, um, that I think beautifully illustrate what we need to watch out for when we design automatic decision aids, for example, because anywhere where you don't have a human checking, what's ultimately decided upon you end up, you might end up with much more grave examples, >>Right? No, it's, it's I agree. I, Cecilia Aragon gave the talk this morning on the human centered guy. I was able to interview her a couple of weeks ago for four winds and a very inspiring woman and another herself, but she brought up a great point about it's the humans and the AI working together. You can't ditch the humans completely to your point. There are things that will go wrong. I think that's a sends a good message that it's not going to be AI taking jobs, but we have to have those two components working better. >>Yeah. And maybe to also refer to the panel discussion we heard, um, on, on equity, um, I very much liked professor Bowles point. Um, I, and how she emphasized that we're never gonna get to this perfectly objective state. And then also during that panel, um, uh, data scientists said that 80% of her work is still cleaning the data most likely because I feel sometimes there is this, um, uh, almost mysticism around the role of a data scientist that sounds really catchy and cool, but, um, there's so many different aspects of work in data science that I feel it's hard to put that all in a nutshell narrowed down to one role. Um, I think in the end, if you enjoy working with data, and maybe you can even combine that with a certain domain that you're particularly interested in, be it sustainability, or, you know, urban planning, whatever that is the perfect match >>It is. And having that passion that goes along with that also can be very impactful. So you love data. You talked about that, you said you had a strange love for databases. Where do you, where do you want to go from where you are now? How much more deeply are you going to dive into the world of data? >>That's a good question because I would, at this point, definitely not consider myself a data scientist, but I feel like, you know, taking baby steps, I'm maybe on a path to becoming one in the future. Um, and so being at university, uh, again gives me, gives me the opportunity to dive back into certain courses and I've done, you know, smaller data science projects. Um, and I was actually amazed at, and this was touched on in a panel as well earlier. Um, how outdated, so many, um, really frequently used data sets are shown the realm of research, you know, AI machine learning, research, all these models that you feed with these super outdated data sets. And that's happened to me like something I can relate to. Um, and then when you go down that path, you come back to the sort of data engineering path that I really enjoy. So I could see myself, you know, keeping on working on that, the whole data, privacy and analytics, both topics that are very close to my heart, and I think can be combined. They're not opposites. That is something I would definitely stay true to >>Data. Privacy is a really interesting topic. We're seeing so many, you know, GDPR was how many years did a few years old that is now, and we've got other countries and states within the United States, for example, there's California has CCPA, which will become CPRA next year. And it's expanding the definition of what private sensitive data is. So we're companies have to be sensitive to that, but it's a huge challenge to do so because there's so much potential that can come from the data yet, we've got that personal aspect, that sensitive aspect that has to be aware of otherwise there's huge fines. Totally. Where do you think we are with that in terms of kind of compliance? >>So, um, I think in the past years we've seen quite a few, uh, rather shocking examples, um, in the United States, for instance, where, um, yeah, personal data was used or all proxies, um, that led to, uh, detrimental outcomes, um, in Europe, thanks to the strong data regulations. I think, um, we haven't had as many problems, but here the question remains, well, where do you draw the line? And, you know, how do you design this trade-off in between increasing efficiency, um, making business applications better, for example, in the case of SAP, um, while protecting the individual, uh, privacy rights of, of people. So, um, I guess in one way, SAP has a, as an easier position because we deal with business data. So anybody who doesn't want to care about the human element maybe would like to, you know, try building models and machine generated data first. >>I mean, at least I would feel much more comfortable because as soon as you look at personally identifiable data, you really need to watch out, um, there is however ways to make that happen. And I was touching upon these anonymization techniques that I think are going to be, um, more and more important in the, in the coming years, there is a proposed on the way by the European commission. And I was actually impressed by the sophisticated newness of legislation in, in that area. And the plan is for the future to tie the rules around the use of data science, to the specific objectives of the project. And I think that's the only way to go because of the data's out there it's going to be used. Right. We've sort of learned that and true anonymization might not even be possible because of the amount of data that's out there. So I think this approach of, um, trying to limit the, the projects in terms of, you know, um, looking at what do they want to achieve, not just for an individual company, but also for us as a society, think that needs to play a much bigger role in any data-related projects where >>You said getting true anonymization isn't really feasible. Where are we though on the anonymization pathway, >>If you will. I mean, it always, it's always the cost benefit trade off, right? Because if the question is not interesting enough, so if you're not going to allocate enough resources in trying to reverse engineer out an old, the tie to an individual, for example, sticking true to this, um, anonymization example, um, nobody's going to do it right. We live in a world where there's data everywhere. So I feel like that that's not going to be our problem. Um, and that is why this approach of trying to look at the objectives of a project come in, because, you know, um, sometimes maybe we're just lucky that it's not valuable enough to figure out certain details about our personal lives so that nobody will try, because I am sure that if people, data scientists tried hard enough, um, I wonder if there's challenges they wouldn't be able to solve. >>And there has been companies that have, you know, put out data sets that were supposedly anonymized. And then, um, it wasn't actually that hard to make interferences and in the, in the panel and equity one lab, one last thought about that. Um, we heard Jessica speak about, uh, construction and you know, how she would, um, she was trying to use, um, synthetic data because it's so hard to get the real data. Um, and the challenge of getting the synthetic data to, um, sort of, uh, um, mimic the true data. And the question came up of sensors in, in the household and so on. That is obviously a huge opportunity, but for me, it's somebody who's, um, very sensitive when it comes to privacy considerations straight away. I'm like, but what, you know, if we generate all this data, then somebody uses it for the wrong reasons, which might not be better urban planning for all different communities, but simple profit maximization. Right? So this is something that's also very dear to my heart, and I'm definitely going to go down that path further. >>Well, Hannah, it's been great having you on the program. Congratulations on being a Wood's ambassador. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of great lessons and experiences that you'll take back to Germany from here. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time for Hannah Sperling. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the QS live coverage of women in data science conference, 2020 to stick around. I'll be right back with my next guest.

(bright music) >> In the 2010s, organizations became keenly aware that data would become the key ingredient to driving competitive advantage, differentiation, and growth. But to this day, putting data to work remains a difficult challenge for many, if not most organizations. Now, as the cloud matures, it has become a game changer for data practitioners by making cheap storage and massive processing power readily accessible. We've also seen better tooling in the form of data workflows, streaming, machine intelligence, AI, developer tools, security, observability, automation, new databases and the like. These innovations they accelerate data proficiency, but at the same time, they add complexity for practitioners. Data lakes, data hubs, data warehouses, data marts, data fabrics, data meshes, data catalogs, data oceans are forming, they're evolving and exploding onto the scene. So in an effort to bring perspective to the sea of optionality, we've brought together the brightest minds in the data analyst community to discuss how data management is morphing and what practitioners should expect in 2022 and beyond. Hello everyone, my name is Dave Velannte with theCUBE, and I'd like to welcome you to a special Cube presentation, analysts predictions 2022: the future of data management. We've gathered six of the best analysts in data and data management who are going to present and discuss their top predictions and trends for 2022 in the first half of this decade. Let me introduce our six power panelists. Sanjeev Mohan is former Gartner Analyst and Principal at SanjMo. Tony Baer, principal at dbInsight, Carl Olofson is well-known Research Vice President with IDC, Dave Menninger is Senior Vice President and Research Director at Ventana Research, Brad Shimmin, Chief Analyst, AI Platforms, Analytics and Data Management at Omdia and Doug Henschen, Vice President and Principal Analyst at Constellation Research. Gentlemen, welcome to the program and thanks for coming on theCUBE today. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you. >> All right, here's the format we're going to use. I as moderator, I'm going to call on each analyst separately who then will deliver their prediction or mega trend, and then in the interest of time management and pace, two analysts will have the opportunity to comment. If we have more time, we'll elongate it, but let's get started right away. Sanjeev Mohan, please kick it off. You want to talk about governance, go ahead sir. >> Thank you Dave. I believe that data governance which we've been talking about for many years is now not only going to be mainstream, it's going to be table stakes. And all the things that you mentioned, you know, the data, ocean data lake, lake houses, data fabric, meshes, the common glue is metadata. If we don't understand what data we have and we are governing it, there is no way we can manage it. So we saw Informatica went public last year after a hiatus of six. I'm predicting that this year we see some more companies go public. My bet is on Culebra, most likely and maybe Alation we'll see go public this year. I'm also predicting that the scope of data governance is going to expand beyond just data. It's not just data and reports. We are going to see more transformations like spark jawsxxxxx, Python even Air Flow. We're going to see more of a streaming data. So from Kafka Schema Registry, for example. We will see AI models become part of this whole governance suite. So the governance suite is going to be very comprehensive, very detailed lineage, impact analysis, and then even expand into data quality. We already seen that happen with some of the tools where they are buying these smaller companies and bringing in data quality monitoring and integrating it with metadata management, data catalogs, also data access governance. So what we are going to see is that once the data governance platforms become the key entry point into these modern architectures, I'm predicting that the usage, the number of users of a data catalog is going to exceed that of a BI tool. That will take time and we already seen that trajectory. Right now if you look at BI tools, I would say there a hundred users to BI tool to one data catalog. And I see that evening out over a period of time and at some point data catalogs will really become the main way for us to access data. Data catalog will help us visualize data, but if we want to do more in-depth analysis, it'll be the jumping off point into the BI tool, the data science tool and that is the journey I see for the data governance products. >> Excellent, thank you. Some comments. Maybe Doug, a lot of things to weigh in on there, maybe you can comment. >> Yeah, Sanjeev I think you're spot on, a lot of the trends the one disagreement, I think it's really still far from mainstream. As you say, we've been talking about this for years, it's like God, motherhood, apple pie, everyone agrees it's important, but too few organizations are really practicing good governance because it's hard and because the incentives have been lacking. I think one thing that deserves mention in this context is ESG mandates and guidelines, these are environmental, social and governance, regs and guidelines. We've seen the environmental regs and guidelines and posts in industries, particularly the carbon-intensive industries. We've seen the social mandates, particularly diversity imposed on suppliers by companies that are leading on this topic. We've seen governance guidelines now being imposed by banks on investors. So these ESGs are presenting new carrots and sticks, and it's going to demand more solid data. It's going to demand more detailed reporting and solid reporting, tighter governance. But we're still far from mainstream adoption. We have a lot of, you know, best of breed niche players in the space. I think the signs that it's going to be more mainstream are starting with things like Azure Purview, Google Dataplex, the big cloud platform players seem to be upping the ante and starting to address governance. >> Excellent, thank you Doug. Brad, I wonder if you could chime in as well. >> Yeah, I would love to be a believer in data catalogs. But to Doug's point, I think that it's going to take some more pressure for that to happen. I recall metadata being something every enterprise thought they were going to get under control when we were working on service oriented architecture back in the nineties and that didn't happen quite the way we anticipated. And so to Sanjeev's point it's because it is really complex and really difficult to do. My hope is that, you know, we won't sort of, how do I put this? Fade out into this nebula of domain catalogs that are specific to individual use cases like Purview for getting data quality right or like data governance and cybersecurity. And instead we have some tooling that can actually be adaptive to gather metadata to create something. And I know its important to you, Sanjeev and that is this idea of observability. If you can get enough metadata without moving your data around, but understanding the entirety of a system that's running on this data, you can do a lot. So to help with the governance that Doug is talking about. >> So I just want to add that, data governance, like any other initiatives did not succeed even AI went into an AI window, but that's a different topic. But a lot of these things did not succeed because to your point, the incentives were not there. I remember when Sarbanes Oxley had come into the scene, if a bank did not do Sarbanes Oxley, they were very happy to a million dollar fine. That was like, you know, pocket change for them instead of doing the right thing. But I think the stakes are much higher now. With GDPR, the flood gates opened. Now, you know, California, you know, has CCPA but even CCPA is being outdated with CPRA, which is much more GDPR like. So we are very rapidly entering a space where pretty much every major country in the world is coming up with its own compliance regulatory requirements, data residents is becoming really important. And I think we are going to reach a stage where it won't be optional anymore. So whether we like it or not, and I think the reason data catalogs were not successful in the past is because we did not have the right focus on adoption. We were focused on features and these features were disconnected, very hard for business to adopt. These are built by IT people for IT departments to take a look at technical metadata, not business metadata. Today the tables have turned. CDOs are driving this initiative, regulatory compliances are beating down hard, so I think the time might be right. >> Yeah so guys, we have to move on here. But there's some real meat on the bone here, Sanjeev. I like the fact that you called out Culebra and Alation, so we can look back a year from now and say, okay, he made the call, he stuck it. And then the ratio of BI tools to data catalogs that's another sort of measurement that we can take even though with some skepticism there, that's something that we can watch. And I wonder if someday, if we'll have more metadata than data. But I want to move to Tony Baer, you want to talk about data mesh and speaking, you know, coming off of governance. I mean, wow, you know the whole concept of data mesh is, decentralized data, and then governance becomes, you know, a nightmare there, but take it away, Tony. >> We'll put this way, data mesh, you know, the idea at least as proposed by ThoughtWorks. You know, basically it was at least a couple of years ago and the press has been almost uniformly almost uncritical. A good reason for that is for all the problems that basically Sanjeev and Doug and Brad we're just speaking about, which is that we have all this data out there and we don't know what to do about it. Now, that's not a new problem. That was a problem we had in enterprise data warehouses, it was a problem when we had over DoOP data clusters, it's even more of a problem now that data is out in the cloud where the data is not only your data lake, is not only us three, it's all over the place. And it's also including streaming, which I know we'll be talking about later. So the data mesh was a response to that, the idea of that we need to bait, you know, who are the folks that really know best about governance? It's the domain experts. So it was basically data mesh was an architectural pattern and a process. My prediction for this year is that data mesh is going to hit cold heart reality. Because if you do a Google search, basically the published work, the articles on data mesh have been largely, you know, pretty uncritical so far. Basically loading and is basically being a very revolutionary new idea. I don't think it's that revolutionary because we've talked about ideas like this. Brad now you and I met years ago when we were talking about so and decentralizing all of us, but it was at the application level. Now we're talking about it at the data level. And now we have microservices. So there's this thought of have we managed if we're deconstructing apps in cloud native to microservices, why don't we think of data in the same way? My sense this year is that, you know, this has been a very active search if you look at Google search trends, is that now companies, like enterprise are going to look at this seriously. And as they look at it seriously, it's going to attract its first real hard scrutiny, it's going to attract its first backlash. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It means that it's being taken seriously. The reason why I think that you'll start to see basically the cold hearted light of day shine on data mesh is that it's still a work in progress. You know, this idea is basically a couple of years old and there's still some pretty major gaps. The biggest gap is in the area of federated governance. Now federated governance itself is not a new issue. Federated governance decision, we started figuring out like, how can we basically strike the balance between getting let's say between basically consistent enterprise policy, consistent enterprise governance, but yet the groups that understand the data and know how to basically, you know, that, you know, how do we basically sort of balance the two? There's a huge gap there in practice and knowledge. Also to a lesser extent, there's a technology gap which is basically in the self-service technologies that will help teams essentially govern data. You know, basically through the full life cycle, from develop, from selecting the data from, you know, building the pipelines from, you know, determining your access control, looking at quality, looking at basically whether the data is fresh or whether it's trending off course. So my prediction is that it will receive the first harsh scrutiny this year. You are going to see some organization and enterprises declare premature victory when they build some federated query implementations. You going to see vendors start with data mesh wash their products anybody in the data management space that they are going to say that where this basically a pipelining tool, whether it's basically ELT, whether it's a catalog or federated query tool, they will all going to get like, you know, basically promoting the fact of how they support this. Hopefully nobody's going to call themselves a data mesh tool because data mesh is not a technology. We're going to see one other thing come out of this. And this harks back to the metadata that Sanjeev was talking about and of the catalog just as he was talking about. Which is that there's going to be a new focus, every renewed focus on metadata. And I think that's going to spur interest in data fabrics. Now data fabrics are pretty vaguely defined, but if we just take the most elemental definition, which is a common metadata back plane, I think that if anybody is going to get serious about data mesh, they need to look at the data fabric because we all at the end of the day, need to speak, you know, need to read from the same sheet of music. >> So thank you Tony. Dave Menninger, I mean, one of the things that people like about data mesh is it pretty crisply articulate some of the flaws in today's organizational approaches to data. What are your thoughts on this? >> Well, I think we have to start by defining data mesh, right? The term is already getting corrupted, right? Tony said it's going to see the cold hard light of day. And there's a problem right now that there are a number of overlapping terms that are similar but not identical. So we've got data virtualization, data fabric, excuse me for a second. (clears throat) Sorry about that. Data virtualization, data fabric, data federation, right? So I think that it's not really clear what each vendor means by these terms. I see data mesh and data fabric becoming quite popular. I've interpreted data mesh as referring primarily to the governance aspects as originally intended and specified. But that's not the way I see vendors using it. I see vendors using it much more to mean data fabric and data virtualization. So I'm going to comment on the group of those things. I think the group of those things is going to happen. They're going to happen, they're going to become more robust. Our research suggests that a quarter of organizations are already using virtualized access to their data lakes and another half, so a total of three quarters will eventually be accessing their data lakes using some sort of virtualized access. Again, whether you define it as mesh or fabric or virtualization isn't really the point here. But this notion that there are different elements of data, metadata and governance within an organization that all need to be managed collectively. The interesting thing is when you look at the satisfaction rates of those organizations using virtualization versus those that are not, it's almost double, 68% of organizations, I'm sorry, 79% of organizations that were using virtualized access express satisfaction with their access to the data lake. Only 39% express satisfaction if they weren't using virtualized access. >> Oh thank you Dave. Sanjeev we just got about a couple of minutes on this topic, but I know you're speaking or maybe you've always spoken already on a panel with (indistinct) who sort of invented the concept. Governance obviously is a big sticking point, but what are your thoughts on this? You're on mute. (panelist chuckling) >> So my message to (indistinct) and to the community is as opposed to what they said, let's not define it. We spent a whole year defining it, there are four principles, domain, product, data infrastructure, and governance. Let's take it to the next level. I get a lot of questions on what is the difference between data fabric and data mesh? And I'm like I can't compare the two because data mesh is a business concept, data fabric is a data integration pattern. How do you compare the two? You have to bring data mesh a level down. So to Tony's point, I'm on a warpath in 2022 to take it down to what does a data product look like? How do we handle shared data across domains and governance? And I think we are going to see more of that in 2022, or is "operationalization" of data mesh. >> I think we could have a whole hour on this topic, couldn't we? Maybe we should do that. But let's corner. Let's move to Carl. So Carl, you're a database guy, you've been around that block for a while now, you want to talk about graph databases, bring it on. >> Oh yeah. Okay thanks. So I regard graph database as basically the next truly revolutionary database management technology. I'm looking forward for the graph database market, which of course we haven't defined yet. So obviously I have a little wiggle room in what I'm about to say. But this market will grow by about 600% over the next 10 years. Now, 10 years is a long time. But over the next five years, we expect to see gradual growth as people start to learn how to use it. The problem is not that it's not useful, its that people don't know how to use it. So let me explain before I go any further what a graph database is because some of the folks on the call may not know what it is. A graph database organizes data according to a mathematical structure called a graph. The graph has elements called nodes and edges. So a data element drops into a node, the nodes are connected by edges, the edges connect one node to another node. Combinations of edges create structures that you can analyze to determine how things are related. In some cases, the nodes and edges can have properties attached to them which add additional informative material that makes it richer, that's called a property graph. There are two principle use cases for graph databases. There's semantic property graphs, which are use to break down human language texts into the semantic structures. Then you can search it, organize it and answer complicated questions. A lot of AI is aimed at semantic graphs. Another kind is the property graph that I just mentioned, which has a dazzling number of use cases. I want to just point out as I talk about this, people are probably wondering, well, we have relation databases, isn't that good enough? So a relational database defines... It supports what I call definitional relationships. That means you define the relationships in a fixed structure. The database drops into that structure, there's a value, foreign key value, that relates one table to another and that value is fixed. You don't change it. If you change it, the database becomes unstable, it's not clear what you're looking at. In a graph database, the system is designed to handle change so that it can reflect the true state of the things that it's being used to track. So let me just give you some examples of use cases for this. They include entity resolution, data lineage, social media analysis, Customer 360, fraud prevention. There's cybersecurity, there's strong supply chain is a big one actually. There is explainable AI and this is going to become important too because a lot of people are adopting AI. But they want a system after the fact to say, how do the AI system come to that conclusion? How did it make that recommendation? Right now we don't have really good ways of tracking that. Machine learning in general, social network, I already mentioned that. And then we've got, oh gosh, we've got data governance, data compliance, risk management. We've got recommendation, we've got personalization, anti money laundering, that's another big one, identity and access management, network and IT operations is already becoming a key one where you actually have mapped out your operation, you know, whatever it is, your data center and you can track what's going on as things happen there, root cause analysis, fraud detection is a huge one. A number of major credit card companies use graph databases for fraud detection, risk analysis, tracking and tracing turn analysis, next best action, what if analysis, impact analysis, entity resolution and I would add one other thing or just a few other things to this list, metadata management. So Sanjeev, here you go, this is your engine. Because I was in metadata management for quite a while in my past life. And one of the things I found was that none of the data management technologies that were available to us could efficiently handle metadata because of the kinds of structures that result from it, but graphs can, okay? Graphs can do things like say, this term in this context means this, but in that context, it means that, okay? Things like that. And in fact, logistics management, supply chain. And also because it handles recursive relationships, by recursive relationships I mean objects that own other objects that are of the same type. You can do things like build materials, you know, so like parts explosion. Or you can do an HR analysis, who reports to whom, how many levels up the chain and that kind of thing. You can do that with relational databases, but yet it takes a lot of programming. In fact, you can do almost any of these things with relational databases, but the problem is, you have to program it. It's not supported in the database. And whenever you have to program something, that means you can't trace it, you can't define it. You can't publish it in terms of its functionality and it's really, really hard to maintain over time. >> Carl, thank you. I wonder if we could bring Brad in, I mean. Brad, I'm sitting here wondering, okay, is this incremental to the market? Is it disruptive and replacement? What are your thoughts on this phase? >> It's already disrupted the market. I mean, like Carl said, go to any bank and ask them are you using graph databases to get fraud detection under control? And they'll say, absolutely, that's the only way to solve this problem. And it is frankly. And it's the only way to solve a lot of the problems that Carl mentioned. And that is, I think it's Achilles heel in some ways. Because, you know, it's like finding the best way to cross the seven bridges of Koenigsberg. You know, it's always going to kind of be tied to those use cases because it's really special and it's really unique and because it's special and it's unique, it's still unfortunately kind of stands apart from the rest of the community that's building, let's say AI outcomes, as a great example here. Graph databases and AI, as Carl mentioned, are like chocolate and peanut butter. But technologically, you think don't know how to talk to one another, they're completely different. And you know, you can't just stand up SQL and query them. You've got to learn, know what is the Carl? Specter special. Yeah, thank you to, to actually get to the data in there. And if you're going to scale that data, that graph database, especially a property graph, if you're going to do something really complex, like try to understand you know, all of the metadata in your organization, you might just end up with, you know, a graph database winter like we had the AI winter simply because you run out of performance to make the thing happen. So, I think it's already disrupted, but we need to like treat it like a first-class citizen in the data analytics and AI community. We need to bring it into the fold. We need to equip it with the tools it needs to do the magic it does and to do it not just for specialized use cases, but for everything. 'Cause I'm with Carl. I think it's absolutely revolutionary. >> Brad identified the principal, Achilles' heel of the technology which is scaling. When these things get large and complex enough that they spill over what a single server can handle, you start to have difficulties because the relationships span things that have to be resolved over a network and then you get network latency and that slows the system down. So that's still a problem to be solved. >> Sanjeev, any quick thoughts on this? I mean, I think metadata on the word cloud is going to be the largest font, but what are your thoughts here? >> I want to (indistinct) So people don't associate me with only metadata, so I want to talk about something slightly different. dbengines.com has done an amazing job. I think almost everyone knows that they chronicle all the major databases that are in use today. In January of 2022, there are 381 databases on a ranked list of databases. The largest category is RDBMS. The second largest category is actually divided into two property graphs and IDF graphs. These two together make up the second largest number databases. So talking about Achilles heel, this is a problem. The problem is that there's so many graph databases to choose from. They come in different shapes and forms. To Brad's point, there's so many query languages in RDBMS, in SQL. I know the story, but here We've got cipher, we've got gremlin, we've got GQL and then we're proprietary languages. So I think there's a lot of disparity in this space. >> Well, excellent. All excellent points, Sanjeev, if I must say. And that is a problem that the languages need to be sorted and standardized. People need to have a roadmap as to what they can do with it. Because as you say, you can do so many things. And so many of those things are unrelated that you sort of say, well, what do we use this for? And I'm reminded of the saying I learned a bunch of years ago. And somebody said that the digital computer is the only tool man has ever device that has no particular purpose. (panelists chuckle) >> All right guys, we got to move on to Dave Menninger. We've heard about streaming. Your prediction is in that realm, so please take it away. >> Sure. So I like to say that historical databases are going to become a thing of the past. By that I don't mean that they're going to go away, that's not my point. I mean, we need historical databases, but streaming data is going to become the default way in which we operate with data. So in the next say three to five years, I would expect that data platforms and we're using the term data platforms to represent the evolution of databases and data lakes, that the data platforms will incorporate these streaming capabilities. We're going to process data as it streams into an organization and then it's going to roll off into historical database. So historical databases don't go away, but they become a thing of the past. They store the data that occurred previously. And as data is occurring, we're going to be processing it, we're going to be analyzing it, we're going to be acting on it. I mean we only ever ended up with historical databases because we were limited by the technology that was available to us. Data doesn't occur in patches. But we processed it in patches because that was the best we could do. And it wasn't bad and we've continued to improve and we've improved and we've improved. But streaming data today is still the exception. It's not the rule, right? There are projects within organizations that deal with streaming data. But it's not the default way in which we deal with data yet. And so that's my prediction is that this is going to change, we're going to have streaming data be the default way in which we deal with data and how you label it and what you call it. You know, maybe these databases and data platforms just evolved to be able to handle it. But we're going to deal with data in a different way. And our research shows that already, about half of the participants in our analytics and data benchmark research, are using streaming data. You know, another third are planning to use streaming technologies. So that gets us to about eight out of 10 organizations need to use this technology. And that doesn't mean they have to use it throughout the whole organization, but it's pretty widespread in its use today and has continued to grow. If you think about the consumerization of IT, we've all been conditioned to expect immediate access to information, immediate responsiveness. You know, we want to know if an item is on the shelf at our local retail store and we can go in and pick it up right now. You know, that's the world we live in and that's spilling over into the enterprise IT world We have to provide those same types of capabilities. So that's my prediction, historical databases become a thing of the past, streaming data becomes the default way in which we operate with data. >> All right thank you David. Well, so what say you, Carl, the guy who has followed historical databases for a long time? >> Well, one thing actually, every database is historical because as soon as you put data in it, it's now history. They'll no longer reflect the present state of things. But even if that history is only a millisecond old, it's still history. But I would say, I mean, I know you're trying to be a little bit provocative in saying this Dave 'cause you know, as well as I do that people still need to do their taxes, they still need to do accounting, they still need to run general ledger programs and things like that. That all involves historical data. That's not going to go away unless you want to go to jail. So you're going to have to deal with that. But as far as the leading edge functionality, I'm totally with you on that. And I'm just, you know, I'm just kind of wondering if this requires a change in the way that we perceive applications in order to truly be manifested and rethinking the way applications work. Saying that an application should respond instantly, as soon as the state of things changes. What do you say about that? >> I think that's true. I think we do have to think about things differently. It's not the way we designed systems in the past. We're seeing more and more systems designed that way. But again, it's not the default. And I agree 100% with you that we do need historical databases you know, that's clear. And even some of those historical databases will be used in conjunction with the streaming data, right? >> Absolutely. I mean, you know, let's take the data warehouse example where you're using the data warehouse as its context and the streaming data as the present and you're saying, here's the sequence of things that's happening right now. Have we seen that sequence before? And where? What does that pattern look like in past situations? And can we learn from that? >> So Tony Baer, I wonder if you could comment? I mean, when you think about, you know, real time inferencing at the edge, for instance, which is something that a lot of people talk about, a lot of what we're discussing here in this segment, it looks like it's got a great potential. What are your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it right. You know, you hit it right on the head there. Which is that, what I'm seeing is that essentially. Then based on I'm going to split this one down the middle is that I don't see that basically streaming is the default. What I see is streaming and basically and transaction databases and analytics data, you know, data warehouses, data lakes whatever are converging. And what allows us technically to converge is cloud native architecture, where you can basically distribute things. So you can have a node here that's doing the real-time processing, that's also doing... And this is where it leads in or maybe doing some of that real time predictive analytics to take a look at, well look, we're looking at this customer journey what's happening with what the customer is doing right now and this is correlated with what other customers are doing. So the thing is that in the cloud, you can basically partition this and because of basically the speed of the infrastructure then you can basically bring these together and kind of orchestrate them sort of a loosely coupled manner. The other parts that the use cases are demanding, and this is part of it goes back to what Dave is saying. Is that, you know, when you look at Customer 360, when you look at let's say Smart Utility products, when you look at any type of operational problem, it has a real time component and it has an historical component. And having predictive and so like, you know, my sense here is that technically we can bring this together through the cloud. And I think the use case is that we can apply some real time sort of predictive analytics on these streams and feed this into the transactions so that when we make a decision in terms of what to do as a result of a transaction, we have this real-time input. >> Sanjeev, did you have a comment? >> Yeah, I was just going to say that to Dave's point, you know, we have to think of streaming very different because in the historical databases, we used to bring the data and store the data and then we used to run rules on top, aggregations and all. But in case of streaming, the mindset changes because the rules are normally the inference, all of that is fixed, but the data is constantly changing. So it's a completely reversed way of thinking and building applications on top of that. >> So Dave Menninger, there seem to be some disagreement about the default. What kind of timeframe are you thinking about? Is this end of decade it becomes the default? What would you pin? >> I think around, you know, between five to 10 years, I think this becomes the reality. >> I think its... >> It'll be more and more common between now and then, but it becomes the default. And I also want Sanjeev at some point, maybe in one of our subsequent conversations, we need to talk about governing streaming data. 'Cause that's a whole nother set of challenges. >> We've also talked about it rather in two dimensions, historical and streaming, and there's lots of low latency, micro batch, sub-second, that's not quite streaming, but in many cases its fast enough and we're seeing a lot of adoption of near real time, not quite real-time as good enough for many applications. (indistinct cross talk from panelists) >> Because nobody's really taking the hardware dimension (mumbles). >> That'll just happened, Carl. (panelists laughing) >> So near real time. But maybe before you lose the customer, however we define that, right? Okay, let's move on to Brad. Brad, you want to talk about automation, AI, the pipeline people feel like, hey, we can just automate everything. What's your prediction? >> Yeah I'm an AI aficionados so apologies in advance for that. But, you know, I think that we've been seeing automation play within AI for some time now. And it's helped us do a lot of things especially for practitioners that are building AI outcomes in the enterprise. It's helped them to fill skills gaps, it's helped them to speed development and it's helped them to actually make AI better. 'Cause it, you know, in some ways provide some swim lanes and for example, with technologies like AutoML can auto document and create that sort of transparency that we talked about a little bit earlier. But I think there's an interesting kind of conversion happening with this idea of automation. And that is that we've had the automation that started happening for practitioners, it's trying to move out side of the traditional bounds of things like I'm just trying to get my features, I'm just trying to pick the right algorithm, I'm just trying to build the right model and it's expanding across that full life cycle, building an AI outcome, to start at the very beginning of data and to then continue on to the end, which is this continuous delivery and continuous automation of that outcome to make sure it's right and it hasn't drifted and stuff like that. And because of that, because it's become kind of powerful, we're starting to actually see this weird thing happen where the practitioners are starting to converge with the users. And that is to say that, okay, if I'm in Tableau right now, I can stand up Salesforce Einstein Discovery, and it will automatically create a nice predictive algorithm for me given the data that I pull in. But what's starting to happen and we're seeing this from the companies that create business software, so Salesforce, Oracle, SAP, and others is that they're starting to actually use these same ideals and a lot of deep learning (chuckles) to basically stand up these out of the box flip-a-switch, and you've got an AI outcome at the ready for business users. And I am very much, you know, I think that's the way that it's going to go and what it means is that AI is slowly disappearing. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think if anything, what we're going to see in 2022 and maybe into 2023 is this sort of rush to put this idea of disappearing AI into practice and have as many of these solutions in the enterprise as possible. You can see, like for example, SAP is going to roll out this quarter, this thing called adaptive recommendation services, which basically is a cold start AI outcome that can work across a whole bunch of different vertical markets and use cases. It's just a recommendation engine for whatever you needed to do in the line of business. So basically, you're an SAP user, you look up to turn on your software one day, you're a sales professional let's say, and suddenly you have a recommendation for customer churn. Boom! It's going, that's great. Well, I don't know, I think that's terrifying. In some ways I think it is the future that AI is going to disappear like that, but I'm absolutely terrified of it because I think that what it really does is it calls attention to a lot of the issues that we already see around AI, specific to this idea of what we like to call at Omdia, responsible AI. Which is, you know, how do you build an AI outcome that is free of bias, that is inclusive, that is fair, that is safe, that is secure, that its audible, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'd take a lot of work to do. And so if you imagine a customer that's just a Salesforce customer let's say, and they're turning on Einstein Discovery within their sales software, you need some guidance to make sure that when you flip that switch, that the outcome you're going to get is correct. And that's going to take some work. And so, I think we're going to see this move, let's roll this out and suddenly there's going to be a lot of problems, a lot of pushback that we're going to see. And some of that's going to come from GDPR and others that Sanjeev was mentioning earlier. A lot of it is going to come from internal CSR requirements within companies that are saying, "Hey, hey, whoa, hold up, we can't do this all at once. "Let's take the slow route, "let's make AI automated in a smart way." And that's going to take time. >> Yeah, so a couple of predictions there that I heard. AI simply disappear, it becomes invisible. Maybe if I can restate that. And then if I understand it correctly, Brad you're saying there's a backlash in the near term. You'd be able to say, oh, slow down. Let's automate what we can. Those attributes that you talked about are non trivial to achieve, is that why you're a bit of a skeptic? >> Yeah. I think that we don't have any sort of standards that companies can look to and understand. And we certainly, within these companies, especially those that haven't already stood up an internal data science team, they don't have the knowledge to understand when they flip that switch for an automated AI outcome that it's going to do what they think it's going to do. And so we need some sort of standard methodology and practice, best practices that every company that's going to consume this invisible AI can make use of them. And one of the things that you know, is sort of started that Google kicked off a few years back that's picking up some momentum and the companies I just mentioned are starting to use it is this idea of model cards where at least you have some transparency about what these things are doing. You know, so like for the SAP example, we know, for example, if it's convolutional neural network with a long, short term memory model that it's using, we know that it only works on Roman English and therefore me as a consumer can say, "Oh, well I know that I need to do this internationally. "So I should not just turn this on today." >> Thank you. Carl could you add anything, any context here? >> Yeah, we've talked about some of the things Brad mentioned here at IDC and our future of intelligence group regarding in particular, the moral and legal implications of having a fully automated, you know, AI driven system. Because we already know, and we've seen that AI systems are biased by the data that they get, right? So if they get data that pushes them in a certain direction, I think there was a story last week about an HR system that was recommending promotions for White people over Black people, because in the past, you know, White people were promoted and more productive than Black people, but it had no context as to why which is, you know, because they were being historically discriminated, Black people were being historically discriminated against, but the system doesn't know that. So, you know, you have to be aware of that. And I think that at the very least, there should be controls when a decision has either a moral or legal implication. When you really need a human judgment, it could lay out the options for you. But a person actually needs to authorize that action. And I also think that we always will have to be vigilant regarding the kind of data we use to train our systems to make sure that it doesn't introduce unintended biases. In some extent, they always will. So we'll always be chasing after them. But that's (indistinct). >> Absolutely Carl, yeah. I think that what you have to bear in mind as a consumer of AI is that it is a reflection of us and we are a very flawed species. And so if you look at all of the really fantastic, magical looking supermodels we see like GPT-3 and four, that's coming out, they're xenophobic and hateful because the people that the data that's built upon them and the algorithms and the people that build them are us. So AI is a reflection of us. We need to keep that in mind. >> Yeah, where the AI is biased 'cause humans are biased. All right, great. All right let's move on. Doug you mentioned mentioned, you know, lot of people that said that data lake, that term is not going to live on but here's to be, have some lakes here. You want to talk about lake house, bring it on. >> Yes, I do. My prediction is that lake house and this idea of a combined data warehouse and data lake platform is going to emerge as the dominant data management offering. I say offering that doesn't mean it's going to be the dominant thing that organizations have out there, but it's going to be the pro dominant vendor offering in 2022. Now heading into 2021, we already had Cloudera, Databricks, Microsoft, Snowflake as proponents, in 2021, SAP, Oracle, and several of all of these fabric virtualization/mesh vendors joined the bandwagon. The promise is that you have one platform that manages your structured, unstructured and semi-structured information. And it addresses both the BI analytics needs and the data science needs. The real promise there is simplicity and lower cost. But I think end users have to answer a few questions. The first is, does your organization really have a center of data gravity or is the data highly distributed? Multiple data warehouses, multiple data lakes, on premises, cloud. If it's very distributed and you'd have difficulty consolidating and that's not really a goal for you, then maybe that single platform is unrealistic and not likely to add value to you. You know, also the fabric and virtualization vendors, the mesh idea, that's where if you have this highly distributed situation, that might be a better path forward. The second question, if you are looking at one of these lake house offerings, you are looking at consolidating, simplifying, bringing together to a single platform. You have to make sure that it meets both the warehouse need and the data lake need. So you have vendors like Databricks, Microsoft with Azure Synapse. New really to the data warehouse space and they're having to prove that these data warehouse capabilities on their platforms can meet the scaling requirements, can meet the user and query concurrency requirements. Meet those tight SLS. And then on the other hand, you have the Oracle, SAP, Snowflake, the data warehouse folks coming into the data science world, and they have to prove that they can manage the unstructured information and meet the needs of the data scientists. I'm seeing a lot of the lake house offerings from the warehouse crowd, managing that unstructured information in columns and rows. And some of these vendors, Snowflake a particular is really relying on partners for the data science needs. So you really got to look at a lake house offering and make sure that it meets both the warehouse and the data lake requirement. >> Thank you Doug. Well Tony, if those two worlds are going to come together, as Doug was saying, the analytics and the data science world, does it need to be some kind of semantic layer in between? I don't know. Where are you in on this topic? >> (chuckles) Oh, didn't we talk about data fabrics before? Common metadata layer (chuckles). Actually, I'm almost tempted to say let's declare victory and go home. And that this has actually been going on for a while. I actually agree with, you know, much of what Doug is saying there. Which is that, I mean I remember as far back as I think it was like 2014, I was doing a study. I was still at Ovum, (indistinct) Omdia, looking at all these specialized databases that were coming up and seeing that, you know, there's overlap at the edges. But yet, there was still going to be a reason at the time that you would have, let's say a document database for JSON, you'd have a relational database for transactions and for data warehouse and you had basically something at that time that resembles a dupe for what we consider your data life. Fast forward and the thing is what I was seeing at the time is that you were saying they sort of blending at the edges. That was saying like about five to six years ago. And the lake house is essentially on the current manifestation of that idea. There is a dichotomy in terms of, you know, it's the old argument, do we centralize this all you know in a single place or do we virtualize? And I think it's always going to be a union yeah and there's never going to be a single silver bullet. I do see that there are also going to be questions and these are points that Doug raised. That you know, what do you need for your performance there, or for your free performance characteristics? Do you need for instance high concurrency? You need the ability to do some very sophisticated joins, or is your requirement more to be able to distribute and distribute our processing is, you know, as far as possible to get, you know, to essentially do a kind of a brute force approach. All these approaches are valid based on the use case. I just see that essentially that the lake house is the culmination of it's nothing. It's a relatively new term introduced by Databricks a couple of years ago. This is the culmination of basically what's been a long time trend. And what we see in the cloud is that as we start seeing data warehouses as a check box items say, "Hey, we can basically source data in cloud storage, in S3, "Azure Blob Store, you know, whatever, "as long as it's in certain formats, "like, you know parquet or CSP or something like that." I see that as becoming kind of a checkbox item. So to that extent, I think that the lake house, depending on how you define is already reality. And in some cases, maybe new terminology, but not a whole heck of a lot new under the sun. >> Yeah. And Dave Menninger, I mean a lot of these, thank you Tony, but a lot of this is going to come down to, you know, vendor marketing, right? Some people just kind of co-op the term, we talked about you know, data mesh washing, what are your thoughts on this? (laughing) >> Yeah, so I used the term data platform earlier. And part of the reason I use that term is that it's more vendor neutral. We've tried to sort of stay out of the vendor terminology patenting world, right? Whether the term lake houses, what sticks or not, the concept is certainly going to stick. And we have some data to back it up. About a quarter of organizations that are using data lakes today, already incorporate data warehouse functionality into it. So they consider their data lake house and data warehouse one in the same, about a quarter of organizations, a little less, but about a quarter of organizations feed the data lake from the data warehouse and about a quarter of organizations feed the data warehouse from the data lake. So it's pretty obvious that three quarters of organizations need to bring this stuff together, right? The need is there, the need is apparent. The technology is going to continue to converge. I like to talk about it, you know, you've got data lakes over here at one end, and I'm not going to talk about why people thought data lakes were a bad idea because they thought you just throw stuff in a server and you ignore it, right? That's not what a data lake is. So you've got data lake people over here and you've got database people over here, data warehouse people over here, database vendors are adding data lake capabilities and data lake vendors are adding data warehouse capabilities. So it's obvious that they're going to meet in the middle. I mean, I think it's like Tony says, I think we should declare victory and go home. >> As hell. So just a follow-up on that, so are you saying the specialized lake and the specialized warehouse, do they go away? I mean, Tony data mesh practitioners would say or advocates would say, well, they could all live. It's just a node on the mesh. But based on what Dave just said, are we gona see those all morphed together? >> Well, number one, as I was saying before, there's always going to be this sort of, you know, centrifugal force or this tug of war between do we centralize the data, do we virtualize? And the fact is I don't think that there's ever going to be any single answer. I think in terms of data mesh, data mesh has nothing to do with how you're physically implement the data. You could have a data mesh basically on a data warehouse. It's just that, you know, the difference being is that if we use the same physical data store, but everybody's logically you know, basically governing it differently, you know? Data mesh in space, it's not a technology, it's processes, it's governance process. So essentially, you know, I basically see that, you know, as I was saying before that this is basically the culmination of a long time trend we're essentially seeing a lot of blurring, but there are going to be cases where, for instance, if I need, let's say like, Upserve, I need like high concurrency or something like that. There are certain things that I'm not going to be able to get efficiently get out of a data lake. And, you know, I'm doing a system where I'm just doing really brute forcing very fast file scanning and that type of thing. So I think there always will be some delineations, but I would agree with Dave and with Doug, that we are seeing basically a confluence of requirements that we need to essentially have basically either the element, you know, the ability of a data lake and the data warehouse, these need to come together, so I think. >> I think what we're likely to see is organizations look for a converge platform that can handle both sides for their center of data gravity, the mesh and the fabric virtualization vendors, they're all on board with the idea of this converged platform and they're saying, "Hey, we'll handle all the edge cases "of the stuff that isn't in that center of data gravity "but that is off distributed in a cloud "or at a remote location." So you can have that single platform for the center of your data and then bring in virtualization, mesh, what have you, for reaching out to the distributed data. >> As Dave basically said, people are happy when they virtualized data. >> I think we have at this point, but to Dave Menninger's point, they are converging, Snowflake has introduced support for unstructured data. So obviously literally splitting here. Now what Databricks is saying is that "aha, but it's easy to go from data lake to data warehouse "than it is from databases to data lake." So I think we're getting into semantics, but we're already seeing these two converge. >> So take somebody like AWS has got what? 15 data stores. Are they're going to 15 converge data stores? This is going to be interesting to watch. All right, guys, I'm going to go down and list do like a one, I'm going to one word each and you guys, each of the analyst, if you would just add a very brief sort of course correction for me. So Sanjeev, I mean, governance is going to to be... Maybe it's the dog that wags the tail now. I mean, it's coming to the fore, all this ransomware stuff, which you really didn't talk much about security, but what's the one word in your prediction that you would leave us with on governance? >> It's going to be mainstream. >> Mainstream. Okay. Tony Baer, mesh washing is what I wrote down. That's what we're going to see in 2022, a little reality check, you want to add to that? >> Reality check, 'cause I hope that no vendor jumps the shark and close they're offering a data niche product. >> Yeah, let's hope that doesn't happen. If they do, we're going to call them out. Carl, I mean, graph databases, thank you for sharing some high growth metrics. I know it's early days, but magic is what I took away from that, so magic database. >> Yeah, I would actually, I've said this to people too. I kind of look at it as a Swiss Army knife of data because you can pretty much do anything you want with it. That doesn't mean you should. I mean, there's definitely the case that if you're managing things that are in fixed schematic relationship, probably a relation database is a better choice. There are times when the document database is a better choice. It can handle those things, but maybe not. It may not be the best choice for that use case. But for a great many, especially with the new emerging use cases I listed, it's the best choice. >> Thank you. And Dave Menninger, thank you by the way, for bringing the data in, I like how you supported all your comments with some data points. But streaming data becomes the sort of default paradigm, if you will, what would you add? >> Yeah, I would say think fast, right? That's the world we live in, you got to think fast. >> Think fast, love it. And Brad Shimmin, love it. I mean, on the one hand I was saying, okay, great. I'm afraid I might get disrupted by one of these internet giants who are AI experts. I'm going to be able to buy instead of build AI. But then again, you know, I've got some real issues. There's a potential backlash there. So give us your bumper sticker. >> I'm would say, going with Dave, think fast and also think slow to talk about the book that everyone talks about. I would say really that this is all about trust, trust in the idea of automation and a transparent and visible AI across the enterprise. And verify, verify before you do anything. >> And then Doug Henschen, I mean, I think the trend is your friend here on this prediction with lake house is really becoming dominant. I liked the way you set up that notion of, you know, the data warehouse folks coming at it from the analytics perspective and then you get the data science worlds coming together. I still feel as though there's this piece in the middle that we're missing, but your, your final thoughts will give you the (indistinct). >> I think the idea of consolidation and simplification always prevails. That's why the appeal of a single platform is going to be there. We've already seen that with, you know, DoOP platforms and moving toward cloud, moving toward object storage and object storage, becoming really the common storage point for whether it's a lake or a warehouse. And that second point, I think ESG mandates are going to come in alongside GDPR and things like that to up the ante for good governance. >> Yeah, thank you for calling that out. Okay folks, hey that's all the time that we have here, your experience and depth of understanding on these key issues on data and data management really on point and they were on display today. I want to thank you for your contributions. Really appreciate your time. >> Enjoyed it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> In addition to this video, we're going to be making available transcripts of the discussion. We're going to do clips of this as well we're going to put them out on social media. I'll write this up and publish the discussion on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. No doubt, several of the analysts on the panel will take the opportunity to publish written content, social commentary or both. I want to thank the power panelists and thanks for watching this special CUBE presentation. This is Dave Vellante, be well and we'll see you next time. (bright music)

>>Okay. We're here at the cube covering Couchbase connect online 2021 modernized. Now this is Dave Vellante and I'm here with Couchbase CEO, Matt Kane. We just saw them at your keynote, blending out the journey to the modern enterprise. Thanks for taking some time with us. >>Hey, thanks, Dave. Great to see you again. Hope everything's well with you. >>Good. Thank you. You know, hanging in there. So look, the big themes from my standpoint, where it's not just about what I call paving the cow path. What I mean by that is just moving old to new, you know, that's good. And it's gonna allow you to simplify and be more agile. But the point I take away is you should also build a new capabilities, maybe share some of your thoughts and add some color, please, to those takeaways. >>I think that's a great takeaway, Dave. And when we think about this, we step back and we put ourselves in the shoes of our customers and whether it's retail customers or next generation financial services or healthcare providers, or what have you each and every one of our customers around the world are thinking about how to create better experiences for their customers. And Dave, we go through this every day, whether it's on our personal lives or in our professional lives, we expect our technology to help us and create better, highly interactive, personalized experiences via the applications that we leverage throughout the day. And you and I have probably access tens if not, hundreds of applications up to this point, uh, today. And we'll, we'll do that as we continue to go forward. And so if you think about, well, what are the challenges of these enterprises to create those experiences? >>Well, at the end of the day, they're writing applications and those applications need to draw upon massive amounts of data and to provide the experiences that we're talking about today. It's not just structured information, but it's unstructured information. And how do I put that together in a seamless way that I create real-time runtime experiences? Well, at the end of the day software, um, developers can, can write code to do anything, but on the critical path of all that is a database. And if you don't have a database that can serve these applications, you're dead in the water. And so as the enterprise thinks about building applications, they're constantly thinking about new capabilities. How can I provide a recommendation engine for Dave, or how can I ensure that the promotion fits the needs of him and his family when he's booking a particular trip, but at the same time, there's legacy applications that have been built and optimized for many, many years, that that are storing critical information and algorithms that need to be combined with those new capabilities to create the experience of people are after. >>And so when you really look at it from a database perspective, you have to modernize your application stack, but you also have to combine that with new capabilities. Now that's easier said than done. The challenge is to do at a database layer are fundamentally sophisticated and some of the most advanced computer science challenges that exist in all of technology. And that is what Couchbase is about. We have carefully architected a platform that bridges some of the best of relational technology with that of modern, no SQL technology in a single integrated platform that services not only enterprise architects, but application developers to provide the very experiences that you and I have come to expect, and that we're going to expect to increase as, as we go forward. So you're absolutely right. It is about putting those two things together. So is that, >>Is that w what you just described is that what you mean by multimodal two-part question? And then the second part is, are you seeing any industry patterns where that appears to be more relevant? >>So when we, when we talk about multimodal, Dave, we're very specific in, in what that means, and, and that's essentially taking a platform approach to data management. So how do we ensure that we have multiple ways to manage data inside of our platform? Couchbase is a key value cache or a document data store. We support, uh, acid transactions, and we've also added operational analytics. And so if you think about all of those modalities, a lot of application teams would think, well, do I need disparate solutions, uh, you know, to, to solve those problems. We think it's of fundamental importance as the modern database for enterprise applications, that we put that together in a single platform, because that's how applications want to be, uh, developed on top of that. We layer on additional services that developers can take advantage of to right, you know, these really rich, personalized, uh, applications. >>And so, as we think about our path forward and some of the market dynamics, we see one of the dynamics that we think is going to play out over the next few years is enterprises. Can't continue to proliferate point solutions for all these disparate problems that they solve. They need to bet on strategic solutions that are going to be platforms to support many of these needs as these go, as they go forward, particularly as they think about long-term total cost of ownership. And when we think about the modalities we're supporting and the enterprise applications we support, we want to ensure that we are a tool that can be leveraged for the right use cases, and then make sure that we have the connection points to other solutions that were not built and optimize for, to have a complete solution for our enterprise customers. So multi-modal layer consolidation platform approach. We think this is going to be absolutely critical as we get into the next chapters of the database transition. >>Great. Thank you for that. So you just described, you know, your UVP to me anyway, your unique value proposition. And I wonder if you could, in thinking about the market big waves that are occurring now, the hybrid work, digitization, the reliance on cloud and cloud migration, how does your unique value prop tie in if you will vector in to those trends that we also often talk about? >>Yeah. Great question, Dave. I appreciate you raising that. So what, what I was articulating, um, were some really important attributes of what may Couchbase Couchbase that were multimodal. We take a platform approach under the hood. Dave, we take great pride in the architectural approach that we have, um, up to this point in building that platform, uh, we're an in-memory shared nothing scale out cloud native architecture that has been designed for today and the future scale and performance. We've architected our platform to run anywhere. So enterprises enjoy the benefits of running in all major public clouds. They can run in private data centers and they can run all the way out to the edge in a single integrated platform with continuity between any point of that network. Topology, if I'm an active, active, active, fail over active, active, passive, any one of those configurations, that is the dependency of distributed applications. >>And we as users want the application to be up and running with the appropriate amount of data wherever. And whenever we are Couchbase has been built for the highest scale and performance to run in that distributed environment. With those modalities that I talked about now to increase, uh, our relevance in the enterprise. There are two personas that we think about a lot. One of them are the architects who are responsible for ensuring that things run in public clouds, that they scale and perform that they meet the SLS of the businesses they serve. But critically important. As you know, Dave is the role of application developers. They got to write killer apps. And so if you think about the needs of enterprise architects, scale performance, reliability, GDPR, CCPA security, those are really, really important. Developers are focused on flexibility, ease of use agility also really, really important, putting those together in an integrated platform. That's what makes Couchbase Couchbase. And there is no other vendor that can bring those capabilities tied to the themes of data, explosion, everything happening at the edge, a single platform that can leverage structured and unstructured information. When we talk about being ready for this moment and why we're so excited about our future and why you're hearing customers say the amazing things they are at our show, it's because of that unique architecture and, and the fact that Couchbase is truly differentiated as a modern database for enterprise applications for the future. >>You know, sometimes those things are counter poised, right? The architectural Providence, and the need for developer agility. That is a nontrivial challenge. Um, in, in one the computer science challenge that obviously you're focused on your big news here, uh, at the show is Couchbase Capella, Capella, by the way, as the brightest star in the constellation, or I go for those of you space nuts. Well, what are the critical aspects of Capella related to Couchbase's cloud strategy? And what does this announcement mean for your customers, Matt? Yeah, >>We couldn't be more excited about a Capella and I'd like to take a moment to congratulate the teams that have been working so hard at Couchbase to, to get to this moment. Um, also want to thank our customers for all the input, uh, that, that we take very seriously. And in thinking through our innovation, um, is we think about all the things we've talked about up to this point. Those are fundamentally important. And we think about the capability of a database that enterprises need. What we also spend a lot of time thinking about is how do customers consume all of that capability, right? And, and enterprises want freedom of choice on how they consume deploy, run, and manage their database for a lot of our customers, they're very happy leveraging our platform and managing that. And they're very diverse, very customized, specific environments, but there are a lot of customers that want us to take over the management and the operation of the database. >>They want the fastest path to D developer, agility and productivity, uh, and they want the best TCO relative to other databases of service offerings. And that is exactly what we have provided with Couchbase Capella. So customers can now come to us, they're up and running with the best database in the industry. Self-serve easy to use up and going, you know, the, the, the most simple experience and the fastest path to value, but that TCO point is fundamentally important. And what's interesting the way we've architected this, the more you scale with Couchbase Capella, the better the TCO gets. And I think that demonstrates our focus on enterprise, the mission critical nature of, of the applications that we support. Um, but you know, we're, we're really excited about Capella. We think it's going to be a great experience for our existing customers, our new customers, um, along with the announcement of the product today, you've heard some things about some of the packaging and ways in which developers can try out the solution in a really unique and cool way. We're providing other great experiences for developers on technical integrations and ideas from other customers on how to take advantage of the Couchbase platform. So we're thinking pretty holistically about consumption, uh, experience. Uh, and again, the fact that it's built on a kind of the foundation of, of Couchbase server seven oh, and, and our, our core platform with all the advantages that that brings with it. Uh, we're, we're pretty excited about the, uh, the announcement and all that that has for, for the company in front of us. So let's on >>For a minute and I want to double click on the, how you see the uniqueness of Capella. So when I think about Couchbase's heritage, the idea of next-generation not, not only SQL database, the acid properties that you talked about, the scale and the performance required for mission critical workloads and your focus on sequel fluency, these tenants of differentiated Couchbase, is it sort of the same kind of approach for Capella and what specifically differentiates Capella in your mind from the spate of other database databases, a service offerings that are out there in the marketplace? >>Well, look at it. When, when enterprises are thinking about applications, particularly the applications that they're running their business on, I like to say the good enough is not a viable strategy for the database. And what that means is you've got to have high performance, you've got to have scale, you've got to have, you know, distributed, uh, attributes. We believe fundamentally that you need to go cloud to edge. Um, that's going to be paramount and we're going to continue to innovate on our core database. So to take all of that power and then put it in a consumption model, as easy as Capella, I mean, Dave, we now have people being able to get up and running in a matter of minutes and, and they're writing applications, uh, on Capella leveraging the full power and breadth of all the capabilities, uh, in, in Couchbase. And going back to something that we talked about earlier dynamics in, in the industry will enterprise is really need to think about total cost of ownership. >>So how am I innovating and solving some of my most fundamental application challenges, but mindful of, you know, the cost and the return of that over time for us to come out with the highest performing database at the lowest TCO for those applications. I mean that that's pretty radical innovation and, and pretty true differentiation that our enterprise and other customer segments are really looking forward to. And then you layer in the fact that we're doing all of this in the de facto language that everybody in the world, the database speaks, which is cul you know, we like to say, it's easy SQL you get up and running, you're going, we speak your dialect. And we give you all of the benefits of this modern platform that are gonna make your job easier. Uh, you know, I think there's a reason why it's the brightest star in, uh, in, in the hemisphere. >>You know, it's funny, you, you, you, you used to talk about your, your S your SQL prowess. And, and that was that, that was the epiphany to me in the early days of big data. It was like the killer app for big data was SQL. And that changed. Everybody's thinking, let's talk about what's next for Couchbase you're a public company now, what are your priorities? How are you spending your time met? >>Well, look, Dave, we're, we're, uh, we're, we're gonna main remain maniacally focused on ensuring that we continue to innovate and solve the biggest problems, the biggest database challenges for enterprise customers. Um, we believe deeply in architecting differentiation that can be sustained over time. Uh, we've done that up to this point and we're going to remain steadfast in that mission. Uh, at the same time, we are entirely focused on satisfying our customers and, uh, demonstrating that we're a business partner, not just, just a vendor. So, you know, building partnerships, making sure we have the appropriate technical integration, supporting customers on their digital transformation strategies, continuing to invest in those capabilities to support customer journeys and make sure they're successful through that through their transformation. I mean, we're investing across all aspects of the business, across all aspects of the world. Uh, we're going to continue to be extremely proud of not just what we do, but how we do it. >>We are a values based organization. We have an incredible world-class team that we continue to grow on on a daily basis. And I'm going to make sure that we're spending time on each one of those and those things are in harmony. So we can continue to build a very vibrant, uh, company that's going to be around for a long, long time and continue to do great things for our customers. When we think about next generation technology, we are in the early innings of what we believe to be truly a generational market transition and the demands of applications and all things digital and combining, you know, technology that goes truly out to the edge and redefining what the edge is even, uh, and, and really thinking through how a platform needs to go, where the data resides to provide people, the experience and machines, the experiences that they need, uh, to, uh, complete their mission of digital transformation. Uh, there's some really mind-bending stuff that we're thinking through as we get, as we get way out there. Uh, but we're gonna continue to do it through the lens of solving big customer problems, making sure they're successful and then continuing to innovate as we go forward. >>Well, we're really excited to follow you guys report on this. And the database is no longer just kind of a bespoke bucket. It's a fundamental component of, of a digital fabric that's growing and becoming ubiquitous as part of a new data era. So we want to thank everybody for watching this keynote summary with Matt Kane, CEO of Couchbase Matt. We wish you all the best in the years ahead, and we look forward to seeing you in person, hopefully in the near future. >>Thanks a lot. See you soon, Dave. Appreciate >>It. All right. Thank you for watching our coverage at Couchbase connect 2021 modernized. Now keep it right there for more coverage that educates and inspires. You're watching the cube.

(cheerful music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to today's session of theCUBE's presentation of AWS Startup Showcase, New Breakthroughs in DevOps, Data Analytics, Cloud Management Tools, featuring Okera from the cloud management migration track. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got two great special guests today, Nong Li, founder and CTO of Okera, and Sanjeev Mohan, principal @SanjMo, and former research vice president of big data and advanced analytics at Gartner. He's a legend, been around the industry for a long time, seen the big data trends from the past, present, and knows the future. Got a great lineup here. Gentlemen, thank you for this, so, life in the trenches, lessons learned across compliance, cloud migration, analytics, and use cases for Fortune 1000s. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So Sanjeev, great to see you, I know you've seen this movie, I was saying that in the open, you've at Gartner seen all the visionaries, the leaders, you know everything about this space. It's changing extremely fast, and one of the big topics right out of the gate is not just innovation, we'll get to that, that's the fun part, but it's the regulatory compliance and audit piece of it. It's keeping people up at night, and frankly if not done right, slows things down. This is a big part of the showcase here, is to solve these problems. Share us your thoughts, what's your take on this wide-ranging issue? >> So, thank you, John, for bringing this up, and I'm so happy you mentioned the fact that, there's this notion that it can slow things down. Well I have to say that the old way of doing governance slowed things down, because it was very much about control and command. But the new approach to data governance is actually in my opinion, it's liberating data. If you want to democratize or monetize, whatever you want to call it, you cannot do it 'til you know you can trust said data and it's governed in some ways, so data governance has actually become very interesting, and today if you want to talk about three different areas within compliance regulatory, for example, we all know about the EU GDPR, we know California has CCPA, and in fact California is now getting even a more stringent version called CPRA in a couple of years, which is more aligned to GDPR. That is a first area we know we need to comply to that, we don't have any way out. But then, there are other areas, there is insider trading, there is how you secure the data that comes from third parties, you know, vendors, partners, suppliers, so Nong, I'd love to hand it over to you, and see if you can maybe throw some light into how our customers are handling these use cases. >> Yeah, absolutely, and I love what you said about balancing agility and liberating, in the face of what may be seen as things that slow you down. So we work with customers across verticals with old and new regulations, so you know, you brought up GDPR. One of our clients is using this to great effect to power their ecosystem. They are a very large retail company that has operations and customers across the world, obviously the importance of GDPR, and the regulations that imposes on them are very top of mind, and at the same time, being able to do effective targeting analytics on customer information is equally critical, right? So they're exactly at that spot where they need this customer insight for powering their business, and then the regulatory concerns are extremely prevalent for them. So in the context of GDPR, you'll hear about things like consent management and right to be forgotten, right? I, as a customer of that retailer should say "I don't want my information used for this purpose," right? "Use it for this, but not this." And you can imagine at a very, very large scale, when you have a billion customers, managing that, all the data you've collected over time through all of your devices, all of your telemetry, really, really challenging. And they're leveraging Okera embedded into their analytics platform so they can do both, right? Their data scientists and analysts who need to do everything they're doing to power the business, not have to think about these kind of very granular customer filtering requirements that need to happen, and then they leverage us to do that. So that's kind of new, right, GDPR, relatively new stuff at this point, but we obviously also work with customers that have regulations from a long long time ago, right? So I think you also mentioned insider trading and that supply chain, so we'll talk to customers, and they want really data-driven decisions on their supply chain, everything about their production pipeline, right? They want to understand all of that, and of course that makes sense, whether you're the CFO, if you're going to make business decisions, you need that information readily available, and supply chains as we know get more and more and more complex, we have more and more integrated into manufacturing and other verticals. So that's your, you're a little bit stuck, right? You want to be data-driven on those supply chain analytics, but at the same time, knowing the details of all the supply chain across all of your dependencies exposes your internal team to very high blackout periods or insider trading concerns, right? For example, if you knew Apple was buying a bunch of something, that's maybe information that only a select few people can have, and the way that manifests into data policies, 'cause you need the ability to have very, very scalable, per employee kind of scalable data restriction policies, so they can do their job easier, right? If we talk about speeding things up, instead of a very complex process for them to get approved, and approved on SEC regulations, all that kind of stuff, you can now go give them access to the part of the supply chain that they need, and no more, and limit their exposure and the company's exposure and all of that kind of stuff. So one of our customers able to do this, getting two orders of magnitude, a 100x reduction in the policies to manage the system like that. >> When I hear you talking like that, I think the old days of "Oh yeah, regulatory, it kind of slows down innovation, got to go faster," pretty basic variables, not a lot of combination of things to check. Now with cloud, there seems to be combinations, Sanjeev, because how complicated has the regulatory compliance and audit environment gotten in the past few years, because I hear security in a supply chain, I hear insider threats, I mean these are security channels, not just compliance department G&A kind of functions. You're talking about large-scale, potentially combinations of access, distribution, I mean it seems complicated. How much more complicated is it now, just than it was a few years ago? >> So, you know the way I look at it is, I'm just mentioning these companies just as an example, when PayPal or Ebay, all these companies started, they started in California. Anybody who ever did business on Ebay or PayPal, guess where that data was? In the US in some data center. Today you cannot do it. Today, data residency laws are really tough, and so now these organizations have to really understand what data needs to remain where. On top of that, we now have so many regulations. You know, earlier on if you were healthcare, you needed to be HIPAA compliant, or banking PCI DSS, but today, in the cloud, you really need to know, what data I have, what sensitive data I have, how do I discover it? So that data discovery becomes really important. What roles I have, so for example, let's say I work for a bank in the US, and I decide to move to Germany. Now, the old school is that a new rule will be created for me, because of German... >> John: New email address, all these new things happen, right? >> Right, exactly. So you end up with this really, a mass of rules and... And these are all static. >> Rules and tools, oh my god. >> Yeah. So Okera actually makes a lot of this dynamic, which reduces your cloud migration overhead, and Nong used some great examples, in fact, sorry if I take just a second, without mentioning any names, there's one of the largest banks in the world is going global in the digital space for the first time, and they're taking Okera with them. So... >> But what's the point? This is my next topic in cloud migration, I want to bring this up because, complexity, when you're in that old school kind of data center, waterfall, these old rules and tools, you have to roll this out, and it's a pain in the butt for everybody, it's a hassle, huge hassle. Cloud gives the agility, we know that, and cloud's becoming more secure, and I think now people see the on-premise, certainly things that'd be on-premises for secure things, I get that, but when you start getting into agility, and you now have cloud regions, you can start being more programmatic, so I want to get you guys' thoughts on the cloud migration, how companies who are now lifting and shifting, replatforming, what's the refactoring beyond that, because you can replatform in the cloud, and still some are kind of holding back on that. Then when you're in the cloud, the ones that are winning, the companies that are winning are the ones that are refactoring in the cloud. Doing things different with new services. Sanjeev, you start. >> Yeah, so you know, in fact lot of people tell me, "You know, we are just going to lift and shift into the cloud." But you're literally using cloud as a data center. You still have all the, if I may say, junk you had on-prem, you just moved it into the cloud, and now you're paying for it. In cloud, nothing is free. Every storage, every processing, you're going to pay for it. The most successful companies are the ones that are replatforming, they are taking advantage of the platform as a service or software as a service, so that includes things like, you pay as you go, you pay for exactly the amount you use, so you scale up and scale down or scale out and scale in, pretty quickly, you know? So you're handling that demand, so without replatforming, you are not really utilizing your- >> John: It's just hosting. >> Yeah, you're just hosting. >> It's basically hosting if you're not doing anything right there. >> Right. The reason why people sometimes resist to replatform, is because there's a hidden cost that we don't really talk about, PaaS adds 3x to IaaS cost. So, some organizations that are very mature, and they have a few thousand people in the IT department, for them, they're like "No, we just want to run it in the cloud, we have the expertise, and it's cheaper for us." But in the long run, to get the most benefit, people should think of using cloud as a service. >> Nong what's your take, because you see examples of companies, I'll just call one out, Snowflake for instance, they're essentially a data warehouse in the cloud, they refactored and they replatformed, they have a competitive advantage with the scale, so they have things that others don't have, that just hosting. Or even on-premise. The new model developing where there's real advantages, and how should companies think about this when they have to manage these data lakes, and they have to manage all these new access methods, but they want to maintain that operational stability and control and growth? >> Yeah, so. No? Yeah. >> There's a few topics that are all (indistinct) this topic. (indistinct) enterprises moving to the cloud, they do this maybe for some cost savings, but a ton of it is agility, right? The motor that the business can run at is just so much faster. So we'll work with companies in the context of cloud migration for data, where they might have a data warehouse they've been using for 20 years, and building policies over that time, right? And it's taking a long time to go proof of access and those kind of things, made more sense, right? If it took you months to procure a physical infrastructure, get machines shipped to your data center, then this data access taking so long feels okay, right? That's kind of the same rate that everything is moving. In the cloud, you can spin up new infrastructure instantly, so you don't want approvals for getting policies, creating rules, all that stuff that Sanjeev was talking about, that being slow is a huge, huge problem. So this is a very common environment that we see where they're trying to do that kind of thing. And then, for replatforming, again, they've been building these roles and processes and policies for 20 years. What they don't want to do is take 20 years to go migrate all that stuff into the cloud, right? That's probably an experience nobody wants to repeat, and frankly for many of them, people who did it originally may or may not be involved in this kind of effort. So we work with a lot of companies like that, they have their, they want stability, they got to have the business running as normal, they got to get moving into the new infrastructure, doing it in a new way that, you know, with all the kind of lessons learned, so, as Sanjeev said, one of these big banks that we work with, that classical story of on-premise data warehousing, maybe a little bit of Hadoop, moved onto AWS, S3, Snowflake, that kind of setup, extremely intricate policies, but let's go reimagine how we can do this faster, right? What we like to talk about is, you're an organization, you need a design that, if you onboarded 1000 more data users, that's got to be way, way easier than the first 10 you onboarded, right? You got to get it to be easier over time, in a really, really significant way. >> Talk about the data authorization safety factor, because I can almost imagine all the intricacies of these different tools creates specialism amongst people who operate them. And each one might have their own little authorization nuance. Trend is not to have that siloed mentality. What's your take on clients that want to just "Hey, you know what? I want to have the maximum agility, but I don't want to get caught in the weeds on some of these tripwires around access and authorization." >> Yeah, absolutely, I think it's real important to get the balance of it, right? Because if you are an enterprise, or if you have diversive teams, you want them to have the ability to use tools as best of breed for their purpose, right? But you don't want to have it be so that every tool has its own access and provisioning and whatever, that's definitely going to be a security, or at least, a lot of friction for you to get things going. So we think about that really hard, I think we've seen great success with things like SSO and Okta, right? Unifying authentication. We think there's a very, very similar thing about to happen with authorization. You want that single control plane that can integrate with all the tools, and still get the best of what you need, but it's much, much easier (indistinct). >> Okta's a great example, if people don't want to build their own thing and just go with that, same with what you guys are doing. That seems to be the dots that are connecting you, Sanjeev. The ease of use, but yet the stability factor. >> Right. Yeah, because John, today I may want to bring up a SQL editor to go into Snowflake, just as an example. Tomorrow, I may want to use the Azure Bot, you know? I may not even want to go to Snowflake, I may want to go to an underlying piece of data, or I may use Power BI, you know, for some reason, and come from Azure side, so the point is that, unless we are able to control, in some sort of a centralized manner, we will not get that consistency. And security you know is all or nothing. You cannot say "Well, I secured my Snowflake, but if you come through HTFS, Hadoop, or some, you know, that is outside of my realm, or my scope," what's the point? So that is why it is really important to have a watertight way, in fact I'm using just a few examples, maybe tomorrow I decide to use a data catalog, or I use Denodo as my data virtualization and I run a query. I'm the same identity, but I'm using different tools. I may use it from home, over VPN, or I may use it from the office, so you want this kind of flexibility, all encompassed in a policy, rather than a separate rule if you do this and this, if you do that, because then you end up with literally thousands of rules. >> And it's never going to stop, either, it's like fashion, the next tool's going to come out, it's going to be cool, and people are going to want to use it, again, you don't want to have to then move the train from the compliance side this way or that way, it's a lot of hassle, right? So we have that one capability, you can bring on new things pretty quickly. Nong, am I getting it right, this is kind of like the trend, that you're going to see more and more tools and/or things that are relevant or, certain use cases that might justify it, but yet, AppSec review, compliance review, I mean, good luck with that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean we certainly expect tools to continue to get more and more diverse, and better, right? Most innovation in the data space, and I think we... This is a great time for that, a lot of things that need to happen, and so on and so forth. So I think one of the early goals of the company, when we were just brainstorming, is we don't want data teams to not be able to use the tools because it doesn't have the right security (indistinct), right? Often those tools may not be focused on that particular area. They're great at what they do, but we want to make sure they're enabled, they do some enterprise investments, they see broader adoption much easier. A lot of those things. >> And I can hear the sirens in the background, that's someone who's not using your platform, they need some help there. But that's the case, I mean if you don't get this right, there are some consequences, and I think one of the things I would like to bring up on next track is, to talk through with you guys is, the persona pigeonhole role, "Oh yeah, a data person, the developer, the DevOps, the SRE," you start to see now, developers and with cloud developers, and data folks, people, however they get pigeonholed, kind of blending in, okay? You got data services, you got analytics, you got data scientists, you got more democratization, all these things are being kicked around, but the notion of a developer now is a data developer, because cloud is about DevOps, data is now a big part of it, it's not just some department, it's actually blending in. Just a cultural shift, can you guys share your thoughts on this trend of data people versus developers now becoming kind of one, do you guys see this happening, and if so, how? >> So when, John, I started my career, I was a DBA, and then a data architect. Today, I think you cannot have a DBA who's not a developer. That's just my opinion. Because there is so much of CICD, DevOps, that happens today, and you know, you write your code in Python, you put it in version control, you deploy using Jenkins, you roll back if there's a problem. And then, you are interacting, you're building your data to be consumed as a service. People in the past, you would have a thick client that would connect to the database over TCP/IP. Today, people don't want to connect over TCP/IP necessarily, they want to go by HTTP. And they want an API gateway in the middle. So, if you're a data architect or DBA, now you have to worry about, "I have a REST API call that's coming in, how am I going to secure that, and make sure that people are allowed to see that?" And that was just yesterday. >> Exactly. Got to build an abstraction layer. You got to build an abstraction layer. The old days, you have to worry about schema, and do all that, it was hard work back then, but now, it's much different. You got serverless, functions are going to show way... It's happening. >> Correct, GraphQL, and semantic layer, that just blows me away because, it used to be, it was all in database, then we took it out of database and we put it in a BI tool. So we said, like BusinessObjects started this whole trend. So we're like "Let's put the semantic layer there," well okay, great, but that was when everything was surrounding BusinessObjects and Oracle Database, or some other database, but today what if somebody brings Power BI or Tableau or Qlik, you know? Now you don't have a semantic layer access. So you cannot have it in the BI layer, so you move it down to its own layer. So now you've got a semantic layer, then where do you store your metrics? Same story repeats, you have a metrics layer, then the data centers want to do feature engineering, where do you store your features? You have a feature store. And before you know, this stack has disaggregated over and over and over, and then you've got layers and layers of specialization that are happening, there's query accelerators like Dremio or Trino, so you've got your data here, which Nong is trying really hard to protect, and then you've got layers and layers and layers of abstraction, and networks are fast, so the end user gets great service, but it's a nightmare for architects to bring all these things together. >> How do you tame the complexity? What's the bottom line? >> Nong? >> Yeah, so, I think... So there's a few things you need to do, right? So, we need to re-think how we express security permanence, right? I think you guys have just maybe in passing (indistinct) talked about creating all these rules and all that kind of stuff, that's been the way we've done things forever. We get to think about policies and mechanisms that are much more dynamic, right? You need to really think about not having to do any additional work, for the new things you add to the system. That's really, really core to solving the complexity problem, right? 'Cause that gets you those orders of magnitude reduction, system's got to be more expressive and map to those policies. That's one. And then second, it's got to be implemented at the right layer, right, to Sanjeev's point, close to the data, and it can service all of those applications and use cases at the same time, and have that uniformity and breadth of support. So those two things have to happen. >> Love this universal data authorization vision that you guys have. Super impressive, we had a CUBE Conversation earlier with Nick Halsey, who's a veteran in the industry, and he likes it. That's a good sign, 'cause he's seen a lot of stuff, too, Sanjeev, like yourself. This is a new thing, you're seeing compliance being addressed, and with programmatic, I'm imagining there's going to be bots someday, very quickly with AI that's going to scale that up, so they kind of don't get in the innovation way, they can still get what they need, and enable innovation. You've got cloud migration, which is only going faster and faster. Nong, you mentioned speed, that's what CloudOps is all about, developers want speed, not things in days or hours, they want it in minutes and seconds. And then finally, ultimately, how's it scale up, how does it scale up for the people operating and/or programming? These are three major pieces. What happens next? Where do we go from here, what's, the customer's sitting there saying "I need help, I need trust, I need scale, I need security." >> So, I just wrote a blog, if I may diverge a bit, on data observability. And you know, so there are a lot of these little topics that are critical, DataOps is one of them, so to me data observability is really having a transparent view of, what is the state of your data in the pipeline, anywhere in the pipeline? So you know, when we talk to these large banks, these banks have like 1000, over 1000 data pipelines working every night, because they've got that hundred, 200 data sources from which they're bringing data in. Then they're doing all kinds of data integration, they have, you know, we talked about Python or Informatica, or whatever data integration, data transformation product you're using, so you're combining this data, writing it into an analytical data store, something's going to break. So, to me, data observability becomes a very critical thing, because it shows me something broke, walk me down the pipeline, so I know where it broke. Maybe the data drifted. And I know Okera does a lot of work in data drift, you know? So this is... Nong, jump in any time, because I know we have use cases for that. >> Nong, before you get in there, I just want to highlight a quick point. I think you're onto something there, Sanjeev, because we've been reporting, and we believe, that data workflows is intellectual property. And has to be protected. Nong, go ahead, your thoughts, go ahead. >> Yeah, I mean, the observability thing is critically important. I would say when you want to think about what's next, I think it's really effectively bridging tools and processes and systems and teams that are focused on data production, with the data analysts, data scientists, that are focused on data consumption, right? I think bridging those two, which cover a lot of the topics we talked about, that's kind of where security almost meets, that's kind of where you got to draw it. I think for observability and pipelines and data movement, understanding that is essential. And I think broadly, on all of these topics, where all of us can be better, is if we're able to close the loop, get the feedback loop of success. So data drift is an example of the loop rarely being closed. It drifts upstream, and downstream users can take forever to figure out what's going on. And we'll have similar examples related to buy-ins, or data quality, all those kind of things, so I think that's really a problem that a lot of us should think about. How do we make sure that loop is closed as quickly as possible? >> Great insight. Quick aside, as the founder CTO, how's life going for you, you feel good? I mean, you started a company, doing great, it's not drifting, it's right in the stream, mainstream, right in the wheelhouse of where the trends are, you guys have a really crosshairs on the real issues, how you feeling, tell us a little bit about how you see the vision. >> Yeah, I obviously feel really good, I mean we started the company a little over five years ago, there are kind of a few things that we bet would happen, and I think those things were out of our control, I don't think we would've predicted GDPR security and those kind of things being as prominent as they are. Those things have really matured, probably as best as we could've hoped, so that feels awesome. Yeah, (indistinct) really expanded in these years, and it feels good. Feels like we're in the right spot. >> Yeah, it's great, data's competitive advantage, and certainly has a lot of issues. It could be a blocker if not done properly, and you're doing great work. Congratulations on your company. Sanjeev, thanks for kind of being my cohost in this segment, great to have you on, been following your work, and you continue to unpack it at your new place that you started. SanjMo, good to see your Twitter handle taking on the name of your new firm, congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, such a pleasure. >> Appreciate it. Okay, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, you're watching today's session presentation of AWS Startup Showcase, featuring Okera, a hot startup, check 'em out, great solution, with a really great concept. Thanks for watching. (calm music)

(tranquil music) >> Alation was an early pioneer in solving some of the most challenging problems in so-called big data. Founded early last decade, the company's metadata management and data catalog have always been considered leading examples of modern tooling by customers and analysts alike. Governance is one area that customers identified as a requirement to extend their use of Alation's platform. And it became an opportunity for the company to expand its scope and total available market. Alation is doing just that today, announcing new data governance capabilities, and partner integrations that align with the market's direction of supporting federated governance. In other words, a centralized view of policy to accommodate distributed data in this world of an ever expanding data cloud, which we talk about all the time in theCUBE. And with me to discuss these trends and this announcement is Satyen Sangani, who's the CEO and co-founder of Alation. Satyen, welcome back to the CUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you Dave, It's great to be back. >> Okay, so you heard my open, please tell us about the patterns that you were seeing in the market and what you were hearing from customers that led you in this direction and then we'll get into the announcement. >> Yeah, so I think there are really two patterns, right? I mean, when we started building this notion of a data catalog, as you said a decade ago, there was this idea that metadata management broadly classified was something that belonged in IT, lived in IT and was essentially managed by IT, right? I always liken it to kind of an inventory management system within a warehouse relative to Amazon.com, which has obviously broadly published for the business. And so, with the idea of bringing all of this data directly to the business and allowing people arbitrarily, depending on their role to use the data. You know, you saw one trend, which was just this massive, shift in how much data was available at any given time. I think the other thing that happened was that at the same time, data governance went through a real transitionary phase where there was a lot of demand often spurred by regulations. Whether that's GDPR, CCPA or more recently than that, certainly the Basel accord. And if you think about all of those regulations, people had to get something in a place. Now what we ended up finding out was when we were selling in to add accounts, people would say, well guess what? I've got this data governance thing going on, but nobody's really using it. I built this business glossary, it's been three years. Nothing's been really very effective. And we were never able to get the value and we need to get value because there are so many more people now accessing and using and leveraging the data. And so with that, we started really considering whether or not we needed to build a formal capability in the market. And that's what we're today that we're doing. >> I liked the way you framed that. And if you think back, we were there as you were in the early big day-to-days. And all the talk was about volume, variety and velocity. And those are sort of IT concepts. How do you deal with all these technical challenges? And then the fourth V which you just mentioned was value. And that's where the line of business really comes in. So let's get into the news. What are you announcing today? >> So we're announcing a new application on top of Alation's Catalog platform, which is an Alations data governance application. That application will be released with our 2021.3 release on September 14th. And what's exciting about that is that we are going to now allow customers to discreetly and elegantly and quickly consume a new application to get data governance regimes off the ground and initiatives off the ground, much more quickly than they've ever been able to do. This app is really all about time to value. It's about allowing customers to be able to consume what they need when they need it in order to be able to get successful governance initiatives going. And so that's what we're trying to deliver. >> So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you think about data governance and specifically your data governance approach. And maybe what's different about Alation's solution. >> Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that are different. I think the first thing that's most critically different is that we move beyond this notion of sort of policy declaration into the world of policy application and policy enforcement, right? I think a lot of data governance regimes basically stand up and say, look you know, it's all about people and then process and then technology. And what we need to do is declare who all the governors are and who all the stewards are. And then we're going to get all our policies in the same place and then the business will follow them. And the reality is people don't change their workflows to go off and arbitrarily follow some data governance policy that they don't know exists, or they don't want to actually have to follow up. And so really what you've got to do is make sure that the policy and the knowledge exists as in where the data exists. And that's why it's so critical to build governance into the catalog. And so what we're doing here is we're basically saying, look, you could declare policies with a new policy center inside of Alation. Those policies will get automatically created in some cases by integrating with technologies like Snowflake. But beyond that, what we're also doing is we're saying, look, we're going to move into the world of taking those policies and applying them to the data on an automated basis using ML and AI and basically saying that now it doesn't have to be some massive boil the ocean three-year regime to get very little value in a very limited business loss rate. Rather all of your data sets, all of your terms can be put into a single place on an automated basis. That's constantly being used by people and constantly being updated by the new systems that are coming online. And that's what's exciting about it. >> So I just want to follow up on that. So if I'm hearing you correctly, it's the humans are in the loop, but it's not the only source of policy, right? The machines are assisting. And in some cases managing end-to-end that policy. Is that right? >> You've got it. I think the the biggest challenge with data governance today is that it basically relies a little bit like the Golden Gate Bridge. You know, you start painting it and by the time you're done painting it, you've got to go back and start painting it again, because it relies upon people. And there's just too much change in the weather and there's too much traffic and there's just too much going on in the world of data. And frankly in today's world, that's not even an apt analogy because often what happens is midway through. You've got to restart painting from the very beginning because everything's changed. And so there's so much change in the IT landscape that the traditional way of doing data governance just doesn't work. >> Got it, so in winning through the press release, three things kind of stood out. I wonder if we could unpack them, there were multi-cloud, governance and security. And then of course the AI or what I like to call machine intelligence in there. And what you call the people centric approach. So I wonder if we could dig in into these and help us understand how they fit together. So thinking about multi-cloud governance, how do you think about that? Why is that so challenging and how are you solving that problem? >> Yeah, well every cloud technology provider has its own set of capabilities and platforms. And often those slight differences are causing differences in how those technologies are adopted. And so some teams optimize for certain capabilities and certain infrastructure over others. And that's true even within businesses. And of course, IT teams are also trying to diversify their IT portfolios. And that's another reason to go multi-cloud. So being able to have a governance capability that spans, certainly all of the good grade called megascalers, but also these new, huge emerging platforms like Snowflake of course and others. Those are really critical capabilities that are important for our customers to be able to get a handle on top of. And so this idea of being cloud agnostic and being able to sort of have a single control plane for all of your policies, for all of your data sets, that's a critical must have in a governance regime today. So that's point number one. >> Okay and then the machine learning piece, the AI, you're obviously injecting that into the application, but maybe tell us what that means both maybe technically and from a business stand point. >> Yeah, so this idea of a data policy, right? Can be sometimes by operational teams, but basically it's a set of rules around how one should and should not be able to use data, right? And so those are great rules. It could be that people who are in one country shouldn't be able to access the data of another country, very simple role, right? But how do you actually enforce that? Like you can declare it, but if there is a end point on a server that allows you to access the data, the policy is effectively moot. And so what you got to go do is make sure that at the point of leverage or at the point of usage, people know what the policy happens to be. And that's where AI come in. You can say let's document all the data sets that happened to be domiciled in Korea or in China. And therefore make sure that those are arbitrarily segregated so that when people want to use that as datasets, they know that the policy exists and they know that it's been applied to that particular dataset. That's somewhere where AI and ML can be super valuable rather than a human being trying to document thousands of databases or tens of thousands of data sets, which is really kind of a (mumbles) exercise. And so, that application of automation is really critical and being able to do governance at the scale that most enterprises have to do it. >> You got it 'cause humans just can't do that at scale. Now what do you mean by people-centric approach? Can you explain that? >> Yeah, often what I find with governance is that there's this notion of kind of there's this heavy notion of how one should deal with the data, right? So often what I find is that there are certain folks who think, oh well, we're going to declare the rules and people are just going to follow them. And if you've ever been well, a parent or in some cases seeing government operate, you realize that that actually isn't how things work. And involve them in how things are run. And if you do that, right? You're going to get a lot more success in how you apply rules and procedures because people will understand that and people know why they exist. And so what we do within this governance regime is we basically say, look, we want to make sure that the people who are using the data, leveraging the data are also the people who are stewarding the data. There shouldn't be a separate role of data steward that is arbitrarily defined off, just because you've been assigned to a job that you never wanted to do. Rather it should be a part of your day job. And it should be something that you do because you really want to do it. And it's a part of your workflow. And so this idea of being people centric is all about how do you engage the analyst, the product managers, the sales operation managers, to document those sales data sets and those product data sets. So that in fact, those people can be the ones who are answering the questions, not somebody off to the side who knows nothing about the data. >> Yeah, I think you've talked in previous CUBE interviews about context and that really fits to this discussion. So these capabilities are part of an application, which is what? it's a module onto your existing platform. And it's sort of it's a single platform, right? I mean, we're not bespoke products. Maybe you can talk about that. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, it's funny because we've evolved and built a relation with a lot of capability. I mean, interestingly we're launching this data governance application but I would say 60% of our almost 300 customers would say they do a form or a significant part of data governance, leveraging relations. So it's not like we're new to this market. We've been selling in this market for years. What's different though, is that we've talked a lot about the catalog as a platform over the last year. And we think that that's a really important concept because what is a platform? It's a capability that has multiple applications built on top of it, definitionally. And it's also a capability where third party developers can leverage APIs and SDKs to build applications. And thirdly, it has all of the requisite capabilities and content. So that those application developers, whether it's first party from Alation or third party can really build those applications efficiently, elegantly and economically well. And the catalog is a natural platform because it contains all of the knowledge of the datasets. And it has all of the people who might be leveraging data in some fundamental way. And so this idea of building this data governance module allows a very specialized audience of people in governance to be able to leverage the full capabilities of the platform, to be able to do their work faster, easier, much more simply and easily than they ever could have. And that's why we're so excited about this launch, because we think it's one example of many applications, whether it's ourselves building it or third parties that could be done so much more elegantly than it previously could have been. Because we have so much knowledge of the data and so much knowledge of how the company operates. >> Irrespective of the underlying cloud platform is what I heard before. >> irrespective of the underlying cloud platform, because the data as you know, lives everywhere. It's going to live in AWS, it's going to live in Snowflake. It's going to live on-premise inside of an Oracle database. That's not going to be changed. It's going to live in Teradata. It's going to live all over the place. And as a consequence of that, we've got to be able to connect to everything and we've got to be able to know everything. >> Okay, so that leads me to another big part of the announcement, which is the partnership and integration with Snowflake. Talk about how that came about. I mean, why snowflake? How should customers think about the future of data management. In the context of this relationship, obviously Snowflake talks about the data cloud. I want to understand that better and where you fit. >> Yeah, so interestingly, this partnership like most great partnerships was born in the field. We at the late part of last year had observed with Snowflake that we were in scores of their biggest accounts. And we found that when you found a really, really large Snowflake engagement, often you were going to be complementing that with a reasonable engagement with Alation. And so seeing that pattern as we were going out and raising our funding route at the beginning of this year, we basically found that Snowflake obviously with their Snowflake Ventures Investment arm realized how strategic having a great answer in the governance market happened to be. Now there are other use cases that we do with Snowflake. We can certainly get into those. But what we realized was that if you had a huge scale, Snowflake engagement, governance was a rate limiter to customers' ability to grow faster. And therefore also Snowflake's ability to grow faster within that account. And so we worked with them to not only develop a partnership but much more critically a roadmap that was really robust. And so we're now starting to deliver on that roadmap and are super excited to share a lot of those capabilities in this release. And so that means that we're automatically ingesting policies and controls from Snowflake into Alation, giving full transparency into both setting and also modifying and understanding those policies for anybody. And so that gives you another control plane through which to be able to manage all of the data inside of your enterprise, irrespective of how many instances of Snowflake you have and irrespective of how many controls you have available to you. >> And again, on which cloud runs on. So I want to follow up with that really interesting because Snowflake's promise of the data cloud, is it essentially abstracts the underlying complexity of the cloud. And I'm trying to understand, okay, how much of this is vision, how much is is real? And it's fine to have a Northstar, but sometimes you get lost in the marketing. And then the other part of the promise, and of course, big value proposition is data sharing. I mean, I think they've nailed that use case, but the challenge when you start sharing data is federated governance. And as well, I think you mentioned Oracle, Teradata that stuff's not all in the cloud, a lot of that stuff on-prem and you guys can deal with that as well. So help us sort of to those circles, if you can. Where do you fit into that equation? >> I think, so look, Snowflake is a magical technology and in the sense that if you look at the data, I mean, it reveals a very, very clear story of the ability to adopt Snowflake very quickly. So any data team with an organization can get up and running with the Snowflake instance with extraordinary speed and capability. Now that means that you could have scores, hundreds of instances of Snowflake within a single institution. And to the extent that you want to be able to govern that data to your point, you've got to have a single control plane through which you can manage all of those various instances. Whether they're combined or merged or completely federated and distinct from each other. Now, the other problem that comes up on governance is also discoverability. If you have all these instances, how do you know what the right hand is doing if the left hand is working independently of it? You need some way to be able to coordinate that effort. And so that idea of discoverability and governance is really the value proposition that Alation brings to the table. And the idea there is that people can then can get up and running much more quickly because, hey, what if I want to spin up a Snowflake instance, but there's somebody else, two teams over those already solved the problem or has the data that I need? Well, then maybe I don't even need to do that anymore. Or maybe I can build on top of that work to be able to get to even better outcome even faster. And so that's the sort of kind of one plus one equals three equation that we're trying to build with them. >> So that makes sense and that leads me to one of my favorite topics with the notion is this burgeoning movement around the concept of a data mesh in it. In other words, the notion that increasingly organizations are going to push to decentralize their data architectures and at the same time support a centralized policy. What do you think about this trend? How do you see Alation fitting in? >> Yeah, maybe in a different CUBE conversation. We can talk a little bit about my sort of stylized history of data, but I've got this basic theory that like everybody started out what sort of this idea of a single source of truth. That was a great term back in the 90s where people were like, look, we just need to build a single source of truth and we can take all of our data and physically land it up in a single place. And when we do that, it's going to all be clean, available and perfect. And we'll get back to the garden of Eden, right? And I think that idea has always been sort of this elusive thing that nobody's ever been able to really accomplish, right? Because in any data environment, what you're going to find is that if people use data, they create more data, right? And so in that world, you know, like that notion of centralization is always going to be fighting this idea of data sprawl. And so this concept of data mesh I think is, you know, there's formal technical definitions. But I'll stick with maybe a very informal one, which is the one that you offered. Which is just sort of this decentralized mode of architecture. You can't have decentralization if nobody knows how to access those different data points, 'cause otherwise they'll just have copies and sprawl and rework. And so you need a catalog and you need centralized policies so that people know what's available to them. And people have some way of being able to get conformed data. Like if you've got data spread out all over the place, how do you know which is the right master? How do you know what's the right customer record? How do you know what's your right chart of accounts? You've got to have services that exist in order to be able to find that stuff and to be able to leverage them consistently. And so, to me the data mesh is really a continuation of this idea, which the catalog really enabled. Which is if you can build a single source of reference, not a single source of truth, but a single place where people can find and discover the data, then you can govern a single plane and you can build consistent architectural rules so that different services can exist in a decentralized way without having to sort of bear all the costs of centralization. And I think that's a super exciting trend 'cause it gives power back to people who want to use the data more quickly and efficiently. >> And I think as we were talking about before, it's not about just the IT technical aspects, hey, it works. It's about putting power in the hands of the lines of business. And a big part of the data mesh conversation is around building data products and putting context or putting data in the hands of the people who have the context. And so it seems to me that Alation, okay, so you could have a catalog that is of the line of businesses catalog, but then there's an Uber catalog that sort of rolls up. So you've got full visibility. It seems that you've fit perfectly into that data mesh. And whether it's a data hub, a data warehouse, data lake, I mean, you don't care. I mean, that's just another node that you can help manage. >> That's exactly right. I mean, it's funny because we all look at these market scapes where people see these vendor landscapes of 500 or 800 different data and AI and ML and data architecture vendors. And often I get asked, well, why doesn't somebody come along and like consolidate all this stuff? And the reality is that tools are a reflection of how people think. And when people have different problems and different sets of experiences, they're going to want to use the best tool in order to be able to solve their problem. And so the nice thing about having a mesh architecture is you can use whatever tool you want. You just have to expose your data in a consistent way. And if you have a catalog, you can be able to have different teams using different infrastructure, different tools, different fundamental methods of building the software. But as long as they're exposing it in a consistent way, it doesn't matter. You don't necessarily need to care how it's built. You just need to know that you've got good data available to you. And that's exactly what a catalog does. >> Well, at least your catalog. I think the data mesh, it should be tools that are agnostic. And I think there are certain tools that are, I think you guys started with that principle. Not every data catalog is going to enable that, but I think that is the trend Satyen. And I think you guys have always fit into that. It's just that I think you were ahead of the time. Hey, we'll give you the last word. Give us the closing thoughts and bring us home. >> Well, I mean that's exactly right. Like, not all the catalogs are created equal and certainly not all governance is created equal. And I think most people say these words and think that are simple to get into. And then it's a death by a thousand cuts. I was literally on the phone with a chief data officer yesterday of a major distributor. And they basically said, look, like we've got sprawl everywhere. We've got data everywhere. We've got it in every type of system. And so having that sophistication turned into something that's actually easy to use is a super hard problem. And it's the one that we're focused on every single day that we wake up and every single night when we go to sleep. And so, that's kind of what we do. And we're here to make governance easy, to make data discovery easy. Those are the things that we hold our hats on. And we're super excited to put this release out 'cause we think it's going to make customers so much more capable of building on top of the problems that they've already solved. And that's what we're here to do. >> Good stuff, Satyen. Thanks so much, congratulations on the announcement and great to see you again. >> You too, Dave. Great talking. >> All right, thanks for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante, we'll see you next time. (tranquil music)