>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE presenting Enterprise Digital Resilience on Hybrid and multicloud brought to you by io/tahoe >> Hello everyone, and welcome to our continuing series covering data automation brought to you by io/tahoe. Today we're going to look at how to ensure enterprise resilience for hybrid and multicloud, let's welcome in Ajay Vohora who's the CEO of io/tahoe Ajay, always good to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Great to be back David, pleasure. >> And he's joined by Fadzi Ushewokunze, who is a global principal architect for financial services, the vertical of financial services at Red Hat. He's got deep experiences in that sector. Welcome Fadzi, good to see you. >> Thank you very much. Happy to be here. >> Fadzi, let's start with you. Look, there are a lot of views on cloud and what it is. I wonder if you could explain to us how you think about what is a hybrid cloud and how it works. >> Sure, Yeah. So, a hybrid cloud is an IT architecture that incorporates some degree of workload portability, orchestration and management across multiple clouds. Those clouds could be private clouds or public clouds or even your own data centers. And how does it all work? It's all about secure interconnectivity and on demand allocation of resources across clouds. And separate clouds can become hybrid when you're seamlessly interconnected. And it is that interconnectivity that allows the workloads to be moved and how management can be unified and orchestration can work. And how well you have these interconnections has a direct impact of how well your hybrid cloud will work. >> Okay, so well Fadzi, staying with you for a minute. So, in the early days of cloud that term private cloud was thrown around a lot. But it often just meant virtualization of an on-prem system and a network connection to the public cloud. Let's bring it forward. What, in your view does a modern hybrid cloud architecture look like? >> Sure, so, for modern hybrid clouds we see that teams or organizations need to focus on the portability of applications across clouds. That's very important, right. And when organizations build applications they need to build and deploy these applications as a small collections of independently loosely coupled services. And then have those things run on the same operating system, which means in other words, running it all Linux everywhere and building cloud native applications and being able to manage it and orchestrate these applications with platforms like Kubernetes or Red Hat OpenShift, for example. >> Okay, so, Fadzi that's definitely different from building a monolithic application that's fossilized and doesn't move. So, what are the challenges for customers, you know, to get to that modern cloud is as you've just described it as it skillsets, is it the ability to leverage things like containers? What's your View there? >> So, I mean, from what we've seen around the industry especially around financial services where I spend most of my time. We see that the first thing that we see is management, right. Now, because you have all these clouds, you know, all these applications. You have a massive array of connections, of interconnections. You also have massive array of integrations portability and resource allocation as well. And then orchestrating all those different moving pieces things like storage networks. Those are really difficult to manage, right? So, management is the first challenge. The second one is workload placement. Where do you place this cloud? How do you place these cloud native operations? Do you, what do you keep on site on prem and what do you put in the cloud? That is the other challenge. The major one, the third one is security. Security now becomes the key challenge and concern for most customers. And we're going to talk about how to address that. >> Yeah, we're definitely going to dig into that. Let's bring Ajay into the conversation. Ajay, you know, you and I have talked about this in the past. One of the big problems that virtually every company face is data fragmentation. Talk a little bit about how io/tahoe, unifies data across both traditional systems, legacy systems and it connects to these modern IT environments. >> Yeah, sure Dave. I mean, a Fadzi just nailed it there. It used to be about data, the volume of data and the different types of data, but as applications become more connected and interconnected the location of that data really matters. How we serve that data up to those apps. So, working with Red Hat and our partnership with Red Hat. Being able to inject our data discovery machine learning into these multiple different locations. whether it be an AWS or an IBM cloud or a GCP or on prem. Being able to automate that discovery and pulling that single view of where is all my data, then allows the CIO to manage cost. They can do things like, one, I keep the data where it is, on premise or in my Oracle cloud or in my IBM cloud and connect the application that needs to feed off that data. And the way in which we do that is machine learning that learns over time as it recognizes different types of data, applies policies to classify that data and brings it all together with automation. >> Right, and one of the big themes that we've talked about this on earlier episodes is really simplification, really abstracting a lot of that heavy lifting away. So, we can focus on things Ajay, as you just mentioned. I mean, Fadzi, one of the big challenges that of course we all talk about is governance across these disparate data sets. I'm curious as your thoughts how does Red Hat really think about helping customers adhere to corporate edicts and compliance regulations? Which of course are particularly acute within financial services. >> Oh yeah, yes. So, for banks and payment providers like you've just mentioned there. Insurers and many other financial services firms, you know they have to adhere to a standard such as say a PCI DSS. And in Europe you've got the GDPR, which requires stringent tracking, reporting, documentation and, you know for them to, to remain in compliance. And the way we recommend our customers to address these challenges is by having an automation strategy, right. And that type of strategy can help you to improve the security on compliance of of your organization and reduce the risk out of the business, right. And we help organizations build security and compliance from the start with our consulting services, residencies. We also offer courses that help customers to understand how to address some of these challenges. And there's also, we help organizations build security into their applications with our open source middleware offerings and even using a platform like OpenShift, because it allows you to run legacy applications and also containerized applications in a unified platform. Right, and also that provides you with, you know with the automation and the tooling that you need to continuously monitor, manage and automate the systems for security and compliance purposes. >> Ajay, anything, any color you could add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I'm pleased Fadzi brought up OpenShift. I mean we're using OpenShift to be able to take that security application of controls to the data level and it's all about context. So, understanding what data is there, being able to assess it to say, who should have access to it, which application permission should be applied to it. That's a great combination of Red Hat and io/tahoe. >> Fadzi, what about multi-cloud? Doesn't that complicate the situation even further, maybe you could talk about some of the best practices to apply automation across not only hybrid cloud, but multi-cloud as well. >> Yeah, sure, yeah. So, the right automation solution, you know can be the difference between, you know cultivating an automated enterprise or automation carries. And some of the recommendations we give our clients is to look for an automation platform that can offer the first thing is complete support. So, that means have an automation solution that provides, you know, promotes IT availability and reliability with your platform so that, you can provide enterprise grade support, including security and testing integration and clear roadmaps. The second thing is vendor interoperability in that, you are going to be integrating multiple clouds. So, you're going to need a solution that can connect to multiple clouds seamlessly, right? And with that comes the challenge of maintainability. So, you're going to need to look into a automation solution that is easy to learn or has an easy learning curve. And then, the fourth idea that we tell our customers is scalability. In the hybrid cloud space, scale is the big, big deal here. And you need to deploy an automation solution that can span across the whole enterprise in a consistent manner, right. And then also that allows you finally to integrate the multiple data centers that you have. >> So, Ajay, I mean, this is a complicated situation for if a customer has to make sure things work on AWS or Azure or Google. They're going to spend all their time doing that. What can you add to really just simplify that multi-cloud and hybrid cloud equation. >> Yeah, I can give a few customer examples here. One being a manufacturer that we've worked with to drive that simplification. And the real bonuses for them has been a reduction in cost. We worked with them late last year to bring the cost spend down by $10 million in 2021. So, they could hit that reduced budget. And, what we brought to that was the ability to deploy using OpenShift templates into their different environments, whether it was on premise or in, as you mentioned, AWS. They had GCP as well for their marketing team and across those different platforms, being able to use a template, use prebuilt scripts to get up and running and catalog and discover that data within minutes. It takes away the legacy of having teams of people having to jump on workshop calls. And I know we're all on a lot of teams zoom calls. And in these current times. They're just simply using enough hours of the day to manually perform all of this. So, yeah, working with Red Hat, applying machine learning into those templates, those little recipes that we can put that automation to work regardless which location the data's in allows us to pull that unified view together. >> Great, thank you. Fadzi, I want to come back to you. So, the early days of cloud you're in the Big Apple, you know financial services really well. Cloud was like an evil word and within financial services, and obviously that's changed, it's evolved. We talk about the pandemic has even accelerated that. And when you really dug into it, when you talk to customers about their experiences with security in the cloud, it was not that it wasn't good, it was great, whatever, but it was different. And there's always this issue of skill, lack of skills and multiple tools, set up teams. are really overburdened. But in the cloud requires, you know, new thinking you've got the shared responsibility model. You've got to obviously have specific corporate, you know requirements and compliance. So, this is even more complicated when you introduce multiple clouds. So, what are the differences that you can share from your experiences running on a sort of either on prem or on a mono cloud or, you know, versus across clouds? What, do you suggest there? >> Sure, you know, because of these complexities that you have explained here mixed configurations and the inadequate change control are the top security threats. So, human error is what we want to avoid, because as you know, as your clouds grow with complexity then you put humans in the mix. Then the rate of errors is going to increase and that is going to expose you to security threats. So, this is where automation comes in, because automation will streamline and increase the consistency of your infrastructure management also application development and even security operations to improve in your protection compliance and change control. So, you want to consistently configure resources according to a pre-approved, you know, pre-approved policies and you want to proactively maintain them in a repeatable fashion over the whole life cycle. And then, you also want to rapidly the identify system that require patches and reconfiguration and automate that process of patching and reconfiguring. So that, you don't have humans doing this type of thing, And you want to be able to easily apply patches and change assistance settings according to a pre-defined base like I explained before, you know with the pre-approved policies. And also you want ease of auditing and troubleshooting, right. And from a Red Hat perspective we provide tools that enable you to do this. We have, for example a tool called Ansible that enables you to automate data center operations and security and also deployment of applications. And also OpenShift itself, it automates most of these things and obstruct the human beings from putting their fingers and causing, you know potentially introducing errors, right. Now, in looking into the new world of multiple clouds and so forth. The differences that we're seeing here between running a single cloud or on prem is three main areas, which is control, security and compliance, right. Control here, it means if you're on premise or you have one cloud you know, in most cases you have control over your data and your applications, especially if you're on prem. However, if you're in the public cloud, there is a difference that the ownership it is still yours, but your resources are running on somebody else's or the public clouds, EWS and so forth infrastructure. So, people that are going to do these need to really, especially banks and governments need to be aware of the regulatory constraints of running those applications in the public cloud. And we also help customers rationalize some of these choices. And also on security, you will see that if you're running on premises or in a single cloud you have more control, especially if you're on prem. You can control the sensitive information that you have. However, in the cloud, that's a different situation especially from personal information of employees and things like that. You need to be really careful with that. And also again, we help you rationalize some of those choices. And then, the last one is compliance. As well, you see that if you're running on prem on single cloud, regulations come into play again, right? And if you're running on prem, you have control over that. You can document everything, you have access to everything that you need, but if you're going to go to the public cloud again, you need to think about that. We have automation and we have standards that can help you you know, address some of these challenges. >> So, that's really strong insights, Fadzi. I mean, first of all Ansible has a lot of market momentum, you know, Red Hat's done a really good job with that acquisition. Your point about repeatability is critical, because you can't scale otherwise. And then, that idea you're putting forth about control, security and compliance. It's so true, I called it the shared responsibility model. And there was a lot of misunderstanding in the early days of cloud. I mean, yeah, maybe AWS is going to physically secure the you know, the S3, but in the bucket but we saw so many misconfigurations early on. And so it's key to have partners that really understand this stuff and can share the experiences of other clients. So, this all sounds great. Ajay, you're sharp, financial background. What about the economics? You know, our survey data shows that security it's at the top of the spending priority list, but budgets are stretched thin. I mean, especially when you think about the work from home pivot and all the areas that they had to, the holes that they had to fill there, whether it was laptops, you know, new security models, et cetera. So, how to organizations pay for this? What's the business case look like in terms of maybe reducing infrastructure costs, so I can pay it forward or there's a there's a risk reduction angle. What can you share there? >> Yeah, I mean, that perspective I'd like to give here is not being multi-cloud as multi copies of an application or data. When I think back 20 years, a lot of the work in financial services I was looking at was managing copies of data that were feeding different pipelines, different applications. Now, what we're seeing at io/tahoe a lot of the work that we're doing is reducing the number of copies of that data. So that, if I've got a product lifecycle management set of data, if I'm a manufacturer I'm just going to keep that at one location. But across my different clouds, I'm going to have best of breed applications developed in-house, third parties in collaboration with my supply chain, connecting securely to that single version of the truth. What I'm not going to do is to copy that data. So, a lot of what we're seeing now is that interconnectivity using applications built on Kubernetes that are decoupled from the data source. That allows us to reduce those copies of data within that you're gaining from a security capability and resilience, because you're not leaving yourself open to those multiple copies of data. And with that come cost of storage and a cost to compute. So, what we're saying is using multi-cloud to leverage the best of what each cloud platform has to offer. And that goes all the way to Snowflake and Heroku on a cloud managed databases too. >> Well and the people cost too as well. When you think about, yes, the copy creep. But then, you know, when something goes wrong a human has to come in and figure it out. You know, you brought up Snowflake, I get this vision of the data cloud, which is, you know data. I think we're going to be rethinking Ajay, data architectures in the coming decade where data stays where it belongs, it's distributed and you're providing access. Like you said, you're separating the data from the applications. Applications as we talked about with Fadzi, much more portable. So, it's really the last 10 years it'd be different than the next 10 years ago Ajay. >> Definitely, I think the people cost reduction is used. Gone are the days where you needed to have a dozen people governing, managing byte policies to data. A lot of that repetitive work, those tasks can be in part automated. We're seen examples in insurance where reduced teams of 15 people working in the back office, trying to apply security controls, compliance down to just a couple of people who are looking at the exceptions that don't fit. And that's really important because maybe two years ago the emphasis was on regulatory compliance of data with policies such as GDPR and CCPA. Last year, very much the economic effect to reduce head counts and enterprises running lean looking to reduce that cost. This year, we can see that already some of the more proactive companies are looking at initiatives, such as net zero emissions. How they use data to understand how they can become more, have a better social impact and using data to drive that. And that's across all of their operations and supply chain. So, those regulatory compliance issues that might have been external. We see similar patterns emerging for internal initiatives that are benefiting that environment, social impact, and of course costs. >> Great perspectives. Jeff Hammerbacher once famously said, the best minds of my generation are trying to get people to click on ads and Ajay those examples that you just gave of, you know social good and moving things forward are really critical. And I think that's where data is going to have the biggest societal impact. Okay guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming to the program. Really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Dave. >> Keep it right there, for more insight and conversation around creating a resilient digital business model. You're watching theCube. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE presenting Enterprise Digital Resilience on Hybrid and multicloud brought to you by io/tahoe >> Hello everyone, and welcome to our continuing series covering data automation brought to you by io/tahoe. Today we're going to look at how to ensure enterprise resilience for hybrid and multicloud, let's welcome in Ajay Vohora who's the CEO of io/tahoe Ajay, always good to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Great to be back David, pleasure. >> And he's joined by Fadzi Ushewokunze, who is a global principal architect for financial services, the vertical of financial services at Red Hat. He's got deep experiences in that sector. Welcome Fadzi, good to see you. >> Thank you very much. Happy to be here. >> Fadzi, let's start with you. Look, there are a lot of views on cloud and what it is. I wonder if you could explain to us how you think about what is a hybrid cloud and how it works. >> Sure, Yeah. So, a hybrid cloud is an IT architecture that incorporates some degree of workload portability, orchestration and management across multiple clouds. Those clouds could be private clouds or public clouds or even your own data centers. And how does it all work? It's all about secure interconnectivity and on demand allocation of resources across clouds. And separate clouds can become hybrid when you're seamlessly interconnected. And it is that interconnectivity that allows the workloads to be moved and how management can be unified and orchestration can work. And how well you have these interconnections has a direct impact of how well your hybrid cloud will work. >> Okay, so well Fadzi, staying with you for a minute. So, in the early days of cloud that term private cloud was thrown around a lot. But it often just meant virtualization of an on-prem system and a network connection to the public cloud. Let's bring it forward. What, in your view does a modern hybrid cloud architecture look like? >> Sure, so, for modern hybrid clouds we see that teams or organizations need to focus on the portability of applications across clouds. That's very important, right. And when organizations build applications they need to build and deploy these applications as a small collections of independently loosely coupled services. And then have those things run on the same operating system, which means in other words, running it all Linux everywhere and building cloud native applications and being able to manage it and orchestrate these applications with platforms like Kubernetes or Red Hat OpenShift, for example. >> Okay, so, Fadzi that's definitely different from building a monolithic application that's fossilized and doesn't move. So, what are the challenges for customers, you know, to get to that modern cloud is as you've just described it as it skillsets, is it the ability to leverage things like containers? What's your View there? >> So, I mean, from what we've seen around the industry especially around financial services where I spend most of my time. We see that the first thing that we see is management, right. Now, because you have all these clouds, you know, all these applications. You have a massive array of connections, of interconnections. You also have massive array of integrations portability and resource allocation as well. And then orchestrating all those different moving pieces things like storage networks. Those are really difficult to manage, right? So, management is the first challenge. The second one is workload placement. Where do you place this cloud? How do you place these cloud native operations? Do you, what do you keep on site on prem and what do you put in the cloud? That is the other challenge. The major one, the third one is security. Security now becomes the key challenge and concern for most customers. And we're going to talk about how to address that. >> Yeah, we're definitely going to dig into that. Let's bring Ajay into the conversation. Ajay, you know, you and I have talked about this in the past. One of the big problems that virtually every company face is data fragmentation. Talk a little bit about how io/tahoe, unifies data across both traditional systems, legacy systems and it connects to these modern IT environments. >> Yeah, sure Dave. I mean, a Fadzi just nailed it there. It used to be about data, the volume of data and the different types of data, but as applications become more connected and interconnected the location of that data really matters. How we serve that data up to those apps. So, working with Red Hat and our partnership with Red Hat. Being able to inject our data discovery machine learning into these multiple different locations. whether it be an AWS or an IBM cloud or a GCP or on prem. Being able to automate that discovery and pulling that single view of where is all my data, then allows the CIO to manage cost. They can do things like, one, I keep the data where it is, on premise or in my Oracle cloud or in my IBM cloud and connect the application that needs to feed off that data. And the way in which we do that is machine learning that learns over time as it recognizes different types of data, applies policies to classify that data and brings it all together with automation. >> Right, and one of the big themes that we've talked about this on earlier episodes is really simplification, really abstracting a lot of that heavy lifting away. So, we can focus on things Ajay, as you just mentioned. I mean, Fadzi, one of the big challenges that of course we all talk about is governance across these disparate data sets. I'm curious as your thoughts how does Red Hat really think about helping customers adhere to corporate edicts and compliance regulations? Which of course are particularly acute within financial services. >> Oh yeah, yes. So, for banks and payment providers like you've just mentioned there. Insurers and many other financial services firms, you know they have to adhere to a standard such as say a PCI DSS. And in Europe you've got the GDPR, which requires stringent tracking, reporting, documentation and, you know for them to, to remain in compliance. And the way we recommend our customers to address these challenges is by having an automation strategy, right. And that type of strategy can help you to improve the security on compliance of of your organization and reduce the risk out of the business, right. And we help organizations build security and compliance from the start with our consulting services, residencies. We also offer courses that help customers to understand how to address some of these challenges. And there's also, we help organizations build security into their applications with our open source middleware offerings and even using a platform like OpenShift, because it allows you to run legacy applications and also containerized applications in a unified platform. Right, and also that provides you with, you know with the automation and the tooling that you need to continuously monitor, manage and automate the systems for security and compliance purposes. >> Ajay, anything, any color you could add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I'm pleased Fadzi brought up OpenShift. I mean we're using OpenShift to be able to take that security application of controls to the data level and it's all about context. So, understanding what data is there, being able to assess it to say, who should have access to it, which application permission should be applied to it. That's a great combination of Red Hat and io/tahoe. >> Fadzi, what about multi-cloud? Doesn't that complicate the situation even further, maybe you could talk about some of the best practices to apply automation across not only hybrid cloud, but multi-cloud as well. >> Yeah, sure, yeah. So, the right automation solution, you know can be the difference between, you know cultivating an automated enterprise or automation carries. And some of the recommendations we give our clients is to look for an automation platform that can offer the first thing is complete support. So, that means have an automation solution that provides, you know, promotes IT availability and reliability with your platform so that, you can provide enterprise grade support, including security and testing integration and clear roadmaps. The second thing is vendor interoperability in that, you are going to be integrating multiple clouds. So, you're going to need a solution that can connect to multiple clouds seamlessly, right? And with that comes the challenge of maintainability. So, you're going to need to look into a automation solution that is easy to learn or has an easy learning curve. And then, the fourth idea that we tell our customers is scalability. In the hybrid cloud space, scale is the big, big deal here. And you need to deploy an automation solution that can span across the whole enterprise in a consistent manner, right. And then also that allows you finally to integrate the multiple data centers that you have. >> So, Ajay, I mean, this is a complicated situation for if a customer has to make sure things work on AWS or Azure or Google. They're going to spend all their time doing that. What can you add to really just simplify that multi-cloud and hybrid cloud equation. >> Yeah, I can give a few customer examples here. One being a manufacturer that we've worked with to drive that simplification. And the real bonuses for them has been a reduction in cost. We worked with them late last year to bring the cost spend down by $10 million in 2021. So, they could hit that reduced budget. And, what we brought to that was the ability to deploy using OpenShift templates into their different environments, whether it was on premise or in, as you mentioned, AWS. They had GCP as well for their marketing team and across those different platforms, being able to use a template, use prebuilt scripts to get up and running and catalog and discover that data within minutes. It takes away the legacy of having teams of people having to jump on workshop calls. And I know we're all on a lot of teams zoom calls. And in these current times. They're just simply using enough hours of the day to manually perform all of this. So, yeah, working with Red Hat, applying machine learning into those templates, those little recipes that we can put that automation to work regardless which location the data's in allows us to pull that unified view together. >> Great, thank you. Fadzi, I want to come back to you. So, the early days of cloud you're in the Big Apple, you know financial services really well. Cloud was like an evil word and within financial services, and obviously that's changed, it's evolved. We talk about the pandemic has even accelerated that. And when you really dug into it, when you talk to customers about their experiences with security in the cloud, it was not that it wasn't good, it was great, whatever, but it was different. And there's always this issue of skill, lack of skills and multiple tools, set up teams. are really overburdened. But in the cloud requires, you know, new thinking you've got the shared responsibility model. You've got to obviously have specific corporate, you know requirements and compliance. So, this is even more complicated when you introduce multiple clouds. So, what are the differences that you can share from your experiences running on a sort of either on prem or on a mono cloud or, you know, versus across clouds? What, do you suggest there? >> Sure, you know, because of these complexities that you have explained here mixed configurations and the inadequate change control are the top security threats. So, human error is what we want to avoid, because as you know, as your clouds grow with complexity then you put humans in the mix. Then the rate of errors is going to increase and that is going to expose you to security threats. So, this is where automation comes in, because automation will streamline and increase the consistency of your infrastructure management also application development and even security operations to improve in your protection compliance and change control. So, you want to consistently configure resources according to a pre-approved, you know, pre-approved policies and you want to proactively maintain them in a repeatable fashion over the whole life cycle. And then, you also want to rapidly the identify system that require patches and reconfiguration and automate that process of patching and reconfiguring. So that, you don't have humans doing this type of thing, And you want to be able to easily apply patches and change assistance settings according to a pre-defined base like I explained before, you know with the pre-approved policies. And also you want ease of auditing and troubleshooting, right. And from a Red Hat perspective we provide tools that enable you to do this. We have, for example a tool called Ansible that enables you to automate data center operations and security and also deployment of applications. And also OpenShift itself, it automates most of these things and obstruct the human beings from putting their fingers and causing, you know potentially introducing errors, right. Now, in looking into the new world of multiple clouds and so forth. The differences that we're seeing here between running a single cloud or on prem is three main areas, which is control, security and compliance, right. Control here, it means if you're on premise or you have one cloud you know, in most cases you have control over your data and your applications, especially if you're on prem. However, if you're in the public cloud, there is a difference that the ownership it is still yours, but your resources are running on somebody else's or the public clouds, EWS and so forth infrastructure. So, people that are going to do these need to really, especially banks and governments need to be aware of the regulatory constraints of running those applications in the public cloud. And we also help customers rationalize some of these choices. And also on security, you will see that if you're running on premises or in a single cloud you have more control, especially if you're on prem. You can control the sensitive information that you have. However, in the cloud, that's a different situation especially from personal information of employees and things like that. You need to be really careful with that. And also again, we help you rationalize some of those choices. And then, the last one is compliance. As well, you see that if you're running on prem on single cloud, regulations come into play again, right? And if you're running on prem, you have control over that. You can document everything, you have access to everything that you need, but if you're going to go to the public cloud again, you need to think about that. We have automation and we have standards that can help you you know, address some of these challenges. >> So, that's really strong insights, Fadzi. I mean, first of all Ansible has a lot of market momentum, you know, Red Hat's done a really good job with that acquisition. Your point about repeatability is critical, because you can't scale otherwise. And then, that idea you're putting forth about control, security and compliance. It's so true, I called it the shared responsibility model. And there was a lot of misunderstanding in the early days of cloud. I mean, yeah, maybe AWS is going to physically secure the you know, the S3, but in the bucket but we saw so many misconfigurations early on. And so it's key to have partners that really understand this stuff and can share the experiences of other clients. So, this all sounds great. Ajay, you're sharp, financial background. What about the economics? You know, our survey data shows that security it's at the top of the spending priority list, but budgets are stretched thin. I mean, especially when you think about the work from home pivot and all the areas that they had to, the holes that they had to fill there, whether it was laptops, you know, new security models, et cetera. So, how to organizations pay for this? What's the business case look like in terms of maybe reducing infrastructure costs, so I can pay it forward or there's a there's a risk reduction angle. What can you share there? >> Yeah, I mean, that perspective I'd like to give here is not being multi-cloud as multi copies of an application or data. When I think back 20 years, a lot of the work in financial services I was looking at was managing copies of data that were feeding different pipelines, different applications. Now, what we're seeing at io/tahoe a lot of the work that we're doing is reducing the number of copies of that data. So that, if I've got a product lifecycle management set of data, if I'm a manufacturer I'm just going to keep that at one location. But across my different clouds, I'm going to have best of breed applications developed in-house, third parties in collaboration with my supply chain, connecting securely to that single version of the truth. What I'm not going to do is to copy that data. So, a lot of what we're seeing now is that interconnectivity using applications built on Kubernetes that are decoupled from the data source. That allows us to reduce those copies of data within that you're gaining from a security capability and resilience, because you're not leaving yourself open to those multiple copies of data. And with that come cost of storage and a cost to compute. So, what we're saying is using multi-cloud to leverage the best of what each cloud platform has to offer. And that goes all the way to Snowflake and Heroku on a cloud managed databases too. >> Well and the people cost too as well. When you think about, yes, the copy creep. But then, you know, when something goes wrong a human has to come in and figure it out. You know, you brought up Snowflake, I get this vision of the data cloud, which is, you know data. I think we're going to be rethinking Ajay, data architectures in the coming decade where data stays where it belongs, it's distributed and you're providing access. Like you said, you're separating the data from the applications. Applications as we talked about with Fadzi, much more portable. So, it's really the last 10 years it'd be different than the next 10 years ago Ajay. >> Definitely, I think the people cost reduction is used. Gone are the days where you needed to have a dozen people governing, managing byte policies to data. A lot of that repetitive work, those tasks can be in part automated. We're seen examples in insurance where reduced teams of 15 people working in the back office, trying to apply security controls, compliance down to just a couple of people who are looking at the exceptions that don't fit. And that's really important because maybe two years ago the emphasis was on regulatory compliance of data with policies such as GDPR and CCPA. Last year, very much the economic effect to reduce head counts and enterprises running lean looking to reduce that cost. This year, we can see that already some of the more proactive companies are looking at initiatives, such as net zero emissions. How they use data to understand how they can become more, have a better social impact and using data to drive that. And that's across all of their operations and supply chain. So, those regulatory compliance issues that might have been external. We see similar patterns emerging for internal initiatives that are benefiting that environment, social impact, and of course costs. >> Great perspectives. Jeff Hammerbacher once famously said, the best minds of my generation are trying to get people to click on ads and Ajay those examples that you just gave of, you know social good and moving things forward are really critical. And I think that's where data is going to have the biggest societal impact. Okay guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming to the program. Really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Dave. >> Keep it right there, for more insight and conversation around creating a resilient digital business model. You're watching theCube. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE presenting Enterprise Digital Resilience on Hybrid and multicloud brought to you by io/tahoe >> Hello everyone, and welcome to our continuing series covering data automation brought to you by io/tahoe. Today we're going to look at how to ensure enterprise resilience for hybrid and multicloud, let's welcome in Ajay Vohora who's the CEO of io/tahoe Ajay, always good to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Great to be back David, pleasure. >> And he's joined by Fadzi Ushewokunze, who is a global principal architect for financial services, the vertical of financial services at Red Hat. He's got deep experiences in that sector. Welcome Fadzi, good to see you. >> Thank you very much. Happy to be here. >> Fadzi, let's start with you. Look, there are a lot of views on cloud and what it is. I wonder if you could explain to us how you think about what is a hybrid cloud and how it works. >> Sure, Yeah. So, a hybrid cloud is an IT architecture that incorporates some degree of workload portability, orchestration and management across multiple clouds. Those clouds could be private clouds or public clouds or even your own data centers. And how does it all work? It's all about secure interconnectivity and on demand allocation of resources across clouds. And separate clouds can become hybrid when you're seamlessly interconnected. And it is that interconnectivity that allows the workloads to be moved and how management can be unified and orchestration can work. And how well you have these interconnections has a direct impact of how well your hybrid cloud will work. >> Okay, so well Fadzi, staying with you for a minute. So, in the early days of cloud that term private cloud was thrown around a lot. But it often just meant virtualization of an on-prem system and a network connection to the public cloud. Let's bring it forward. What, in your view does a modern hybrid cloud architecture look like? >> Sure, so, for modern hybrid clouds we see that teams or organizations need to focus on the portability of applications across clouds. That's very important, right. And when organizations build applications they need to build and deploy these applications as a small collections of independently loosely coupled services. And then have those things run on the same operating system, which means in other words, running it all Linux everywhere and building cloud native applications and being able to manage it and orchestrate these applications with platforms like Kubernetes or Red Hat OpenShift, for example. >> Okay, so, Fadzi that's definitely different from building a monolithic application that's fossilized and doesn't move. So, what are the challenges for customers, you know, to get to that modern cloud is as you've just described it as it skillsets, is it the ability to leverage things like containers? What's your View there? >> So, I mean, from what we've seen around the industry especially around financial services where I spend most of my time. We see that the first thing that we see is management, right. Now, because you have all these clouds, you know, all these applications. You have a massive array of connections, of interconnections. You also have massive array of integrations portability and resource allocation as well. And then orchestrating all those different moving pieces things like storage networks. Those are really difficult to manage, right? So, management is the first challenge. The second one is workload placement. Where do you place this cloud? How do you place these cloud native operations? Do you, what do you keep on site on prem and what do you put in the cloud? That is the other challenge. The major one, the third one is security. Security now becomes the key challenge and concern for most customers. And we're going to talk about how to address that. >> Yeah, we're definitely going to dig into that. Let's bring Ajay into the conversation. Ajay, you know, you and I have talked about this in the past. One of the big problems that virtually every company face is data fragmentation. Talk a little bit about how io/tahoe, unifies data across both traditional systems, legacy systems and it connects to these modern IT environments. >> Yeah, sure Dave. I mean, a Fadzi just nailed it there. It used to be about data, the volume of data and the different types of data, but as applications become more connected and interconnected the location of that data really matters. How we serve that data up to those apps. So, working with Red Hat and our partnership with Red Hat. Being able to inject our data discovery machine learning into these multiple different locations. whether it be an AWS or an IBM cloud or a GCP or on prem. Being able to automate that discovery and pulling that single view of where is all my data, then allows the CIO to manage cost. They can do things like, one, I keep the data where it is, on premise or in my Oracle cloud or in my IBM cloud and connect the application that needs to feed off that data. And the way in which we do that is machine learning that learns over time as it recognizes different types of data, applies policies to classify that data and brings it all together with automation. >> Right, and one of the big themes that we've talked about this on earlier episodes is really simplification, really abstracting a lot of that heavy lifting away. So, we can focus on things Ajay, as you just mentioned. I mean, Fadzi, one of the big challenges that of course we all talk about is governance across these disparate data sets. I'm curious as your thoughts how does Red Hat really think about helping customers adhere to corporate edicts and compliance regulations? Which of course are particularly acute within financial services. >> Oh yeah, yes. So, for banks and payment providers like you've just mentioned there. Insurers and many other financial services firms, you know they have to adhere to a standard such as say a PCI DSS. And in Europe you've got the GDPR, which requires stringent tracking, reporting, documentation and, you know for them to, to remain in compliance. And the way we recommend our customers to address these challenges is by having an automation strategy, right. And that type of strategy can help you to improve the security on compliance of of your organization and reduce the risk out of the business, right. And we help organizations build security and compliance from the start with our consulting services, residencies. We also offer courses that help customers to understand how to address some of these challenges. And there's also, we help organizations build security into their applications with our open source middleware offerings and even using a platform like OpenShift, because it allows you to run legacy applications and also containerized applications in a unified platform. Right, and also that provides you with, you know with the automation and the tooling that you need to continuously monitor, manage and automate the systems for security and compliance purposes. >> Ajay, anything, any color you could add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I'm pleased Fadzi brought up OpenShift. I mean we're using OpenShift to be able to take that security application of controls to the data level and it's all about context. So, understanding what data is there, being able to assess it to say, who should have access to it, which application permission should be applied to it. That's a great combination of Red Hat and io/tahoe. >> Fadzi, what about multi-cloud? Doesn't that complicate the situation even further, maybe you could talk about some of the best practices to apply automation across not only hybrid cloud, but multi-cloud as well. >> Yeah, sure, yeah. So, the right automation solution, you know can be the difference between, you know cultivating an automated enterprise or automation carries. And some of the recommendations we give our clients is to look for an automation platform that can offer the first thing is complete support. So, that means have an automation solution that provides, you know, promotes IT availability and reliability with your platform so that, you can provide enterprise grade support, including security and testing integration and clear roadmaps. The second thing is vendor interoperability in that, you are going to be integrating multiple clouds. So, you're going to need a solution that can connect to multiple clouds seamlessly, right? And with that comes the challenge of maintainability. So, you're going to need to look into a automation solution that is easy to learn or has an easy learning curve. And then, the fourth idea that we tell our customers is scalability. In the hybrid cloud space, scale is the big, big deal here. And you need to deploy an automation solution that can span across the whole enterprise in a consistent manner, right. And then also that allows you finally to integrate the multiple data centers that you have. >> So, Ajay, I mean, this is a complicated situation for if a customer has to make sure things work on AWS or Azure or Google. They're going to spend all their time doing that. What can you add to really just simplify that multi-cloud and hybrid cloud equation. >> Yeah, I can give a few customer examples here. One being a manufacturer that we've worked with to drive that simplification. And the real bonuses for them has been a reduction in cost. We worked with them late last year to bring the cost spend down by $10 million in 2021. So, they could hit that reduced budget. And, what we brought to that was the ability to deploy using OpenShift templates into their different environments, whether it was on premise or in, as you mentioned, AWS. They had GCP as well for their marketing team and across those different platforms, being able to use a template, use prebuilt scripts to get up and running and catalog and discover that data within minutes. It takes away the legacy of having teams of people having to jump on workshop calls. And I know we're all on a lot of teams zoom calls. And in these current times. They're just simply using enough hours of the day to manually perform all of this. So, yeah, working with Red Hat, applying machine learning into those templates, those little recipes that we can put that automation to work regardless which location the data's in allows us to pull that unified view together. >> Great, thank you. Fadzi, I want to come back to you. So, the early days of cloud you're in the Big Apple, you know financial services really well. Cloud was like an evil word and within financial services, and obviously that's changed, it's evolved. We talk about the pandemic has even accelerated that. And when you really dug into it, when you talk to customers about their experiences with security in the cloud, it was not that it wasn't good, it was great, whatever, but it was different. And there's always this issue of skill, lack of skills and multiple tools, set up teams. are really overburdened. But in the cloud requires, you know, new thinking you've got the shared responsibility model. You've got to obviously have specific corporate, you know requirements and compliance. So, this is even more complicated when you introduce multiple clouds. So, what are the differences that you can share from your experiences running on a sort of either on prem or on a mono cloud or, you know, versus across clouds? What, do you suggest there? >> Sure, you know, because of these complexities that you have explained here mixed configurations and the inadequate change control are the top security threats. So, human error is what we want to avoid, because as you know, as your clouds grow with complexity then you put humans in the mix. Then the rate of errors is going to increase and that is going to expose you to security threats. So, this is where automation comes in, because automation will streamline and increase the consistency of your infrastructure management also application development and even security operations to improve in your protection compliance and change control. So, you want to consistently configure resources according to a pre-approved, you know, pre-approved policies and you want to proactively maintain them in a repeatable fashion over the whole life cycle. And then, you also want to rapidly the identify system that require patches and reconfiguration and automate that process of patching and reconfiguring. So that, you don't have humans doing this type of thing, And you want to be able to easily apply patches and change assistance settings according to a pre-defined base like I explained before, you know with the pre-approved policies. And also you want ease of auditing and troubleshooting, right. And from a Red Hat perspective we provide tools that enable you to do this. We have, for example a tool called Ansible that enables you to automate data center operations and security and also deployment of applications. And also OpenShift itself, it automates most of these things and obstruct the human beings from putting their fingers and causing, you know potentially introducing errors, right. Now, in looking into the new world of multiple clouds and so forth. The differences that we're seeing here between running a single cloud or on prem is three main areas, which is control, security and compliance, right. Control here, it means if you're on premise or you have one cloud you know, in most cases you have control over your data and your applications, especially if you're on prem. However, if you're in the public cloud, there is a difference that the ownership it is still yours, but your resources are running on somebody else's or the public clouds, EWS and so forth infrastructure. So, people that are going to do these need to really, especially banks and governments need to be aware of the regulatory constraints of running those applications in the public cloud. And we also help customers rationalize some of these choices. And also on security, you will see that if you're running on premises or in a single cloud you have more control, especially if you're on prem. You can control the sensitive information that you have. However, in the cloud, that's a different situation especially from personal information of employees and things like that. You need to be really careful with that. And also again, we help you rationalize some of those choices. And then, the last one is compliance. As well, you see that if you're running on prem on single cloud, regulations come into play again, right? And if you're running on prem, you have control over that. You can document everything, you have access to everything that you need, but if you're going to go to the public cloud again, you need to think about that. We have automation and we have standards that can help you you know, address some of these challenges. >> So, that's really strong insights, Fadzi. I mean, first of all Ansible has a lot of market momentum, you know, Red Hat's done a really good job with that acquisition. Your point about repeatability is critical, because you can't scale otherwise. And then, that idea you're putting forth about control, security and compliance. It's so true, I called it the shared responsibility model. And there was a lot of misunderstanding in the early days of cloud. I mean, yeah, maybe AWS is going to physically secure the you know, the S3, but in the bucket but we saw so many misconfigurations early on. And so it's key to have partners that really understand this stuff and can share the experiences of other clients. So, this all sounds great. Ajay, you're sharp, financial background. What about the economics? You know, our survey data shows that security it's at the top of the spending priority list, but budgets are stretched thin. I mean, especially when you think about the work from home pivot and all the areas that they had to, the holes that they had to fill there, whether it was laptops, you know, new security models, et cetera. So, how to organizations pay for this? What's the business case look like in terms of maybe reducing infrastructure costs, so I can pay it forward or there's a there's a risk reduction angle. What can you share there? >> Yeah, I mean, that perspective I'd like to give here is not being multi-cloud as multi copies of an application or data. When I think back 20 years, a lot of the work in financial services I was looking at was managing copies of data that were feeding different pipelines, different applications. Now, what we're seeing at io/tahoe a lot of the work that we're doing is reducing the number of copies of that data. So that, if I've got a product lifecycle management set of data, if I'm a manufacturer I'm just going to keep that at one location. But across my different clouds, I'm going to have best of breed applications developed in-house, third parties in collaboration with my supply chain, connecting securely to that single version of the truth. What I'm not going to do is to copy that data. So, a lot of what we're seeing now is that interconnectivity using applications built on Kubernetes that are decoupled from the data source. That allows us to reduce those copies of data within that you're gaining from a security capability and resilience, because you're not leaving yourself open to those multiple copies of data. And with that come cost of storage and a cost to compute. So, what we're saying is using multi-cloud to leverage the best of what each cloud platform has to offer. And that goes all the way to Snowflake and Heroku on a cloud managed databases too. >> Well and the people cost too as well. When you think about, yes, the copy creep. But then, you know, when something goes wrong a human has to come in and figure it out. You know, you brought up Snowflake, I get this vision of the data cloud, which is, you know data. I think we're going to be rethinking Ajay, data architectures in the coming decade where data stays where it belongs, it's distributed and you're providing access. Like you said, you're separating the data from the applications. Applications as we talked about with Fadzi, much more portable. So, it's really the last 10 years it'd be different than the next 10 years ago Ajay. >> Definitely, I think the people cost reduction is used. Gone are the days where you needed to have a dozen people governing, managing byte policies to data. A lot of that repetitive work, those tasks can be in part automated. We're seen examples in insurance where reduced teams of 15 people working in the back office, trying to apply security controls, compliance down to just a couple of people who are looking at the exceptions that don't fit. And that's really important because maybe two years ago the emphasis was on regulatory compliance of data with policies such as GDPR and CCPA. Last year, very much the economic effect to reduce head counts and enterprises running lean looking to reduce that cost. This year, we can see that already some of the more proactive companies are looking at initiatives, such as net zero emissions. How they use data to understand how they can become more, have a better social impact and using data to drive that. And that's across all of their operations and supply chain. So, those regulatory compliance issues that might have been external. We see similar patterns emerging for internal initiatives that are benefiting that environment, social impact, and of course costs. >> Great perspectives. Jeff Hammerbacher once famously said, the best minds of my generation are trying to get people to click on ads and Ajay those examples that you just gave of, you know social good and moving things forward are really critical. And I think that's where data is going to have the biggest societal impact. Okay guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming to the program. Really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Dave. >> Keep it right there, for more insight and conversation around creating a resilient digital business model. You're watching theCube. (soft music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we want to dig into the so called multi-cloud arena some of the questions we're getting from our community are what is a multi cloud did we really need it what problems does multi-cloud solve and importantly what problems does it create how is this thing called multi cloud likely to evolve and who are some of the key players to watch how do they stack up relative to each other you know recently I got a couple of interesting questions from a customer that says I have all this AI action going on and doing sophisticated modeling and this data lives and oh clouds all over the place how do I cross connect to the data and the workloads that are running on these clouds with the consistence this consistent experience of what our other customers doing another question came up in the community today is there a financial advantage to multi cloud or is it just about avoiding lock-in so I'm gonna take a stab at addressing these questions so first of all let's look at some of the noise that's going on in the marketplace and try to extract a little signal every vendor especially the ones who don't own a cloud are touting this thing called multi cloud and they tell us that customers want to avoid lock-in and organizations want seamless integration across clouds and they say we the vendor are uniquely qualified to deliver that capability although as you can see here in for a not everybody agrees because some feel that multi cloud is less secure more complicated in higher cost now the reality is that one two and three are true as is for a to a certain degree but generally I would say that multi cloud to date is more of a symptom of multi vendor then a clear strategy but that's beginning to change and there's a substantial opportunity out there for anyone to win so let's explore this a little bit and an exclusive sit-down with aunty Jessie prior to reinvent 2019 John Fourier got Jessie to talk about this trend here's what he said we have a large number of companies who have gone all-in on AWS and that's growing but there's gonna be other companies who decide that they're going to use multiple clouds for different reasons you wouldn't have to say that the vast majority of organizations pursuing cloud tend to pick a predominant provider that it's not a 50/50 scenario it's rather it's more like a 70/30 or 8020 or even a 90/10 faria went on to write somewhat paraphrasing I think Jesse in my view it's not hard to find the reasons for using multiple clouds right is M&A there's shadow IT there's developer preference but it's really not multi cloud by design it's just more of the same Enterprise IT mishmash that we've seen for decades so I generally have to say I agree with that but it is changing and I want to dig into that a bit so first let me recap the basic premise that we work off of first cloud is winning in the marketplace we know this building data centers is not the best use of capital unless you're a data center operator or a hyper scaler or you know maybe a SAS provider maybe so more and more work is going to continue to move to the cloud this was pretty much the first wave of cloud if you will a cloud of remote infrastructure services for very obvious workloads like web test dev analytics and certain SAS offerings the second wave of cloud which we've been talking about for 15 years was or should I say is a hybrid connecting remote cloud services to on-prem workloads and the third wave which is really hitting somewhat in parallel is this thing that we call multi cloud now it's not a perfect analogy but these multi generational waves remind us of the early days of networking now some of you may remember that years ago the industry was comprised of multiple dominant vendors that control their own proprietary network stacks for example IBM had SN a digital or deck had decnet all the many computer vendors had their own proprietary nets now in the early to mid-1980s the OSI model emerged with the objective of creating interoperability amongst all these different communication systems and the idea was we're going to standardize on protocols and the model had seven layers all the way from the physical layer through the application but really in reality was a pipe dream because we were way too complicated and and it sort of assumed that customers are gonna rip and replace their existing networks and then standardize on the OSI model now in reality that was never gonna happen however what it did is it open the door for new companies and you saw firms like Cisco and 3com emerged with tcp/ip and Ethernet becoming standardized and enabling connections between these systems and it totally changed the industry as we now know it so what does this have to do with multi-cloud well today you kind of have a similar situation with dominant public cloud leaders like AWS and azure and in this analogy they are the proprietary siloed networks of the past like IBM and digital they're more open obviously but still ultimately customers are going to put workloads on the right cloud for the right job and that includes putting work on Prem and connecting it to the public cloud with call it a substantially similar and ideally identical experience that's what we call hybrid now that's today's big wave and you're seeing it with Amazon's outposts and VMware and Amazon and Azure stack etc so while all this hybrid action is getting wired up customers are putting work into AWS and Azure and certainly Google and IBM cloud and the Oracle cloud and so forth now customers are wanting to connect across clouds with a substantially similar experience because that reduces cost and of course it speeds business outcomes that's what we call multi cloud now I'm not by any means suggesting that Amazon and Microsoft are gonna go the way of the mini computer vendors I don't believe that I think leaders today are much more savvy and tuned into how to surf the waves they're more paranoid and they're frankly just smarter than back in the 70s and 80s but it's not a rite of passage if they ignore the trends they will face challenges that could become driftwood so you're seeing the emergence of some of the moves from the vendor crowd the big whales connecting their infrastructure like AWS and VMware and Microsoft and Oracle quite interesting and IBM Red Hat with everybody cisco Dell HPE with everyone Google with anthos and a lot of other players all are trying to stake a claim in this hybrid and multi cloud world but you also have these emerging players that are innovators companies like CrowdStrike in security cumulant in the backup space and many dozens of well-funded players looking to grab a share of this multi cloud pie and it's worth pointing out that they're all kind of going gaga over kubernetes now of course this makes sense because kubernetes has emerged as a standard it's certainly very popular with developers why because it enables portability and allows them to package applications and of course all they're related to tendencies around those applications and then hand that app off for testing or deployment and it's gonna behave in the exact same way as when they ran it locally this we've seen and we know this but I want to share something I had a great conversation with Bernard golden yesterday and he made an excellent point about well you know kubernetes and containers he said this portability is a necessary but insufficient condition for multi cloud to succeed you still have to have an integrated management approach to security ID management monitoring performance reporting and end get into cross-training of people and skills etc ok I want to shift gears and as always I want to dig into these segments and bring in the et our perspective now pretty sure ETR is a lot of data on multi cloud from their ven meetings and other surveys but what I've done today is pulled some data that I'm using is indicators or proxies for multi cloud so I can't go out and buy me some multi cloud today it doesn't really exist in that form so what we have to do is highlight some of the trends in the data and draw some inferences from that so let's take a look at this chart what it shows is the relative position of a number of companies that my view are participating in the multi cloud arena the chart plots these companies showing net score or remember spending momentum on the y-axis and we've just opposed that to what's called market share on the x-axis market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set and what we've done is we've filtered on three sectors cloud container orchestration and container platforms using that as a proxy for multi cloud so these are buyers 791 of them as you can see by the end who are spenders in these three areas and we're isolating on select group of names and as a last filter we selected only companies with 50 or more results in the data set from this survey and we're using this as a multi cloud sector proxy so let me make a couple of comments here first I know kubernetes is not a company but ETR captures spending on kubernetes it's one of the hottest areas in the data set with a nearly 82% net score so we're capturing that as a reference point the next thing I want to say is you can see the big cloud players Azure and AWS and once again as in previous breaking analysis segments we see those two look they're leaders they're out the lead both companies showing very very strong momentum from a net score standpoint now AWS you might say why are you including a diversity if they don't explicitly have a multi cloud offering but in my view you cannot talk about multi cloud without including the leading cloud supplier you also see Google not so much in the market share of the big two but Google's showing strong net score we've talked about that before and they're very well positioned in multi cloud with anthos there behind their playing cloud agnostic to try to catch up again remember this is a proxy that we are running it's not necessarily a reflection of firms specific multi cloud offerings it's an indicator based on the filters that we've run now let's take a look at some of the others rubric the data protection specialists and CrowdStrike was a security darling they show some real strengths both have multi cloud offerings and they have strategies around their look at how she Corp they stand out as an important player in our view as they provide developer tooling to run secure and and deploy applications across clouds VMware cloud is I believe it's a vfc VMware cloud foundation and it's right there in the mix and you can also see fortunate in there as well executing from a security position I talked about them last week in my braking analysis they have a nice cloud portfolio and they're benefiting from execution strong execution let me call your attention to IBM in Red Hat Red Hat OpenShift look at their respective positions on this chart IBM spending velocity or net score is low but Red Hat has quite strong spending velocity and this is CEO Arvind Krishna's opportunity leverage IBM's large install based presence shown here as market share or pervasiveness and bring red hat to the right and leverage open shifts coolness to increase IBM's relevance and elevate it elevated spending velocity if arvind can make the kind of progress that i'm showing here in this picture he'll end up being CEO of the decade but that really is IBM's opportunity you can also see I put Oracle in the chart as well because of their multi cloud relationship with Microsoft which which I actually think has great potential for running mission-critical Oracle databases as I've noted many times I've you know IBM and Oracle both have clouds they're in the cloud game there are hyper scalar clouds but they have very large installed software franchises why is that important because it insulates them from the I ass ix knife fight and the pricing pressures that are putting forth by the hyper scalars the finally I have to mention Cisco I've said many times comes at multi cloud from a position of strength and networking and of course security they've got a huge market presence and not without challenges but they clearly are a player here ok now let's go on and look at some similar proxy data basically the same cut isolated on a few big players participating in multi cloud so again same cut as before but this is this shows a time series isolating on some of those Biggie's showing their net score or spending momentum in cloud and container related sectors that I talked about you got Azure leading GCP showing momentum IBM Red Hat with open shift and VMware all with solid net scores that are in the green cisco not as strong from a net score or spending velocity standpoint but it's shared in or presence in the data set is significant in this cut so two takeaways here really are one this is a wide-open race it's jump ball you really can't pick a winner yet and to each is gonna come at this from their own unique position of strength which brings me to how we see this space evolving this simple chart here really shows how we see the multi cloud infrastructure stack emerging starting at the bottom we show in the stack networking you gotta have networking to cross connect clouds and this is where cisco you has to win the day not optional for them some big players are going after the control plane including Microsoft arc Google with anthos VMware with tans ooh IBM Red Hat and we think eventually AWS is a possibility to enter that game on the data plane you got some big whales like Dell EMC you got NetApp you've got HPE at IBM the big storage players as well you have specialists like pure who's doing some interesting things in block in the cloud and cumulonimbus mention you have a bunch of companies like Veritas cohesive the rubric vMac TIFIA is gonna be in there CommVault I mentioned Klum EO before IBM is another one you got a whole bunch of folks in networking big portfolio plays from the likes of Cisco I said to network I met security from Cisco Palo Alto fortunate along with many of the security specialists we've highlighted in the past like CrowdStrike and there are many many others now on the leftmost side of this chart is really interesting we showed the full stack interconnects here we're referring to the direct cloud to cloud connections in functions up and down the entire stack examples here are AWS VMware yes that hybrid but also emerging at the edge and Microsoft and Oracle so the bottom line is we're seeing a battle brewing between the big companies with larger appetites gobbling up major portions of the market with integrated suites that are playing out within each layer of the stack competing with smaller and nimble players that are delivering best to breed function along those stack layers all right let me summarize so here are the questions that I said I would answer let's see how I did what the heck is multi cloud well let me first say it feels like everything in IT is additive what do I mean by that well we never get rid of stuff you keep things forever think about it the typical enterprise has multiple data centers they get many SAS providers more likely they have you know more than one Iast provider and they're starting to think about what should I do with the edge there is no standard for hybrid or multi cloud deployments you talk to 100 customers and you're gonna hear 120 or 150 or 300 different environments and several orders of magnitude of challenges that they face do we really need multi-cloud not an ideal world no we wouldn't need multi cloud but we talked about how we got here earlier how real is it how real is multi cloud now look companies use multiple clouds it's is it easy to do things across scope these clouds no so it's one of these problems that the industry is created that it can now make money fixing it's a vicious cycle I know but so goes the enterprise IT business what problems does it does multi-cloud solve and create look the goal of multi cloud should be that it creates more value than just the sum of the individual parts and that is clearly not happening yet in my opinion moving data around is a problem so ultimately the value comes from being able to bring cloud services to data that resides all over the place and as Bernard golden implied even with kubernetes the experience is far from seamless so we understand that technology created this problem and IT people processes and technology will be asked to clean up the crime scene as I often say it's a common story in enterprise tech we talked about how multi-cloud will evolve along a stack that it comprises specialists and big companies with very big appetites my opinion is that multi-cloud will evolve as a mishmash and vendor relationships the right tools for the right job the edge IT and OT tensions mergers and acquisitions these are gonna create even a bigger mess down the road we have well-funded companies that are exceedingly capable in this business and the leaders are gonna get their fair share cloud is a trillion-dollar market opportunity and there will not be in my opinion a winner-take-all and multi cloud so who wins like I've tried to lay out some of the leaders within different parts of the stack but there's way more to this story I do believe that the cloud players are well positioned why cuz they're they invented cloud EWS and others who followed right now Microsoft and Google are playing actively in that market but I definitely think AWS will I that space but I think VMware Red Hat IBM Cisco etc some of this from the respective positions of strength and I've sort of they have the added benefit of being cloud semi agnostic because generally they're not wed to a hyper scale cloud you know IBM as a cloud oracle as a cloud but it's on a hyper scale cloud and as always there's specialists that are gonna solve problems that are too small initially for the big whales to see so they get a leader lead bleed to market advantage but those opportunities can grow over time and allow these guys to reach escape velocity now so I'll say multi-cloud in and of itself is I believe an opportunity one that will be attacked from a position of strength within the stack and there are opportunities to be specialists up and down that stack the Akashi Corp alright this is Dave Volante for wiki bonds cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching this breaking analysis and remember these episodes are available as podcasts you can check it out as you're driving your car wherever you listen to two podcasts you can connect with me at David Villante at Silicon angle calm or at D Volante on Twitter or please comment on my LinkedIn posts thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

>> From the ARIA Resort in Las Vegas, it's theCube. Covering AWS Marketplace. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCube. We are at AWS Reinvent 2018. We got to get a number, I don't know how many people are here, but Vegas is packed. I think it's in six different venues tonight. We're at the ARIA at the hub with the AWS Marketplace & Service Catalog Experience, kicking everything off. We're excited to be joined by cube alumni. Last we saw him, I think it was in San Francisco Summit 2017. Carl Krupitzer, the CEO of ThingLogix. Carl, great to see you. >> Thank you it's great to be here. >> So I think you were saying before we turned the cameras on, you came early days. This whole piece here was not even as big a the room we're in. >> Right well we were part of the service launch for IoT, and that was just a few years ago, and it's exponentially bigger. Yeah. Just the expo, this is not even the expo floor right? And this is bigger than what we had originally. So excited to see it grow. >> So IoT keeps growing, growing, growing. That's all we hear about. In Industrial IoT, we did the Industrial IoT launch with GE back in better days. For them, huge opportunity. Really seeing a lot of momentum. What are some of the observations you're seeing actually out in marketplace? >> You know it's interesting. When we first started with the IoT service offering for AWS, there was a lot of proof of concepts going on, a lot of people kind of hacking their way through understanding what IoT is and how it could impact their business. And I think we've gotten to the point now where we're seeing more production roll-outs with very considerate business drivers behind it. >> Right. I think it's funny you're talking about doing some research for this, and you guys are really specific. I love it. It's not Greenfield projects you know? Have specific design objectives, have specific KPIs, have specific kind of ideas about what the functionality you want before you just kind of jump into IoT space with two feet. >> Right. Yeah we strongly discourage companies from just jumping in with both feet just because right? It's an expensive undertaking IoT, and it has the potential to really change your business for the better if you do it well. >> So where are you seeing the most uptake? Or maybe that surprises you the most in these early days? Kind of industry wise? >> We see a lot of creative use cases starting to come up. Kind of that secondary use of data, and one of the things that we've-- we kind of describe our customers having a life cycle of IoT right? They come in to solve a specific problem with us, which is usually a scalability, or a go to market issue. And then very quickly, they kind of get to the art of the possible. What can we do next? And we see a lot of companies really getting creative with the way they do things. From charging with-- using our FID tags in sub-Saharan Africa for water to solar power and things like that. It's interesting to see companies that didn't exist a few years ago, and couldn't have existed a few years ago, really kind of getting a lot of traction now. >> Right. It's funny we did an interview with Zebra Sports a few years ago actually now. And they're the one that's old RFID technology that put the pads in the shoulder pads for all the NFL players. They're on the refs, they're in the balls. It is such a cool way to apply on old technology to a new application and then really open up this completely different kind of consumer experience in watching sports. When you've got all this additional data about how fast are they running and what's their acceleration. And I think they had one example where they showed a guy in an interception. They had the little line tracker. Before he'd gotten all the way back in, it was a pick six. It's unbelievable now with this data. >> Our Middle Eastern group is actually doing a pilot right now for camel racing. So we're doing telemetry attached to the camels that are running around the tracks. We're getting speed and heart rate and those sorts of things. So it's everywhere right? >> I love it. Camel racing. So we're here at the AWS Marketplace Experience. So tell us a little bit about how's it working with AWS. How's the the marketplace fit within your entire kind of go to market strategy? >> Well so for us, the marketplace is really key to our go to market strategy right? I mean we're a small company and we-- our sales team is really kind of focused on helping customers solve problems and the marketplace really offers us the ability to not have to deal with a lot of the infrastructure things of servicing a customer right? They can go there, they can self sign up, they can implement the platform, our technology platform on their own and then billing is taken off of our plate. So it's not something that we have to have a bunch of resources dedicated to. >> Is there still a big services component though, that you still have to come in to help them as you say kind of define nice projects and good KPI's and kind of good places to start? Or do they often times on the marketplace purchase just go off to the races on their own? >> So it's a combination. If companies are looking to solve a specific problem with an IoT platform like Foundry, it's definitely a self implementable thing and it's becoming more and more self implementable. Foundry really deploys into a customers account using Cloud formation, and Cloud formation templates allow us to kind of create these customized solutions that can then be deployed. So it's-- we're getting a combination of both. >> Yeah, and I would imagine it's taken you into all kinds of markets that you just don't-- you just don't have the manpower to cover when you have a distribution partner at EWS. >> Yeah it's made things a lot faster for us to be able to spin up vertical solutions or specific offerings for a particular large customer. Marketplace can take care of all of the infrastructure on that. >> Alright so what are you looking for here at Reinvent 2018? You've been coming to these things for awhile. I know Andy's tweeting out, his keynote is ready to have the chicken wing contest I think, last night at midnight. Too late for me, I didn't make it. (laughs) >> For us I mean, some of the more exciting things that are out there are the emergence of server-less right? You see server-less, all of those AWS services really taking off. >> Right. >> But there's also the Sumarian, the ARVR's really kind of exploding. So for us it's really about, this is a great place for us to see the direction that AWS is heading and then make sure that our offering, and our technology is layered on top of that appropriately. >> And what are you hearing from your customers about Edge? All the talk about Edge and there's some fudd I think going about how does Edge work with Cloud and to me it's like two completely separate technology applications, but then you know what you're trying to accomplish. As kind of the buzzwords, Edge gets beyond the buzz and actually starts to be implemented, what do you kind of seeing and how's that working together with some of the services that Amazon's got? >> I mean Edge architecture's are an important component to a solution. Especially solutions that require real time data processing and decision making at the shop floor or whatever you have. AWS has taken very big strides toward creating service offerings and products down at the Edge that interface well with the Cloud. So for us, our perspective on it is that the Edge is really a reflection of the business logic and the processes and things that we define and build for a customer. Because ultimately those Edge processes have to feed the enterprise processes, which is what we really focus on right? How do we get machine data into enterprise systems? So Edge technology for us is definitely a consideration and when we build our select technology solutions, we look at Edge as a component in that architecture and we try to meet the needs of the customers specific use case when it comes to Edge. >> Right. Yeah it's not killing the Cloud. Who said that? - Right. >> So silly. >> Yeah it can't kill it. >> It's not slowing down this thing. >> Right. Alright Carl well thanks for taking a few minutes and have great Reinvent. >> Yeah thank you. - [Jeff] Hydrate. >> Thanks for your time. Definitely. - They say hydrate. Alright he's Carl, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCube. We're at AWS Marketplace inservice catalog experience. We're at the Aria in the quads. Stop on by. Thanks for watching we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE Studios here in Palo Alto. We're here for our next segment, The future of networking. And we're going to experience the future of networking through a demo of SD-WAN in action with Riverbed. I'm here with Josh Dobie, the Vice President of Product Marketing, and Vivek Ganti, Senior Technical Marketing Engineer. We're going to give a demo of SteelConnect in action. Guys, thanks for joining me on this segment. Let's get into it. What are we going to show here? Showing SD-WAN in action. This is experiencing the future of networking. >> Thanks, John. So what's exciting about this next wave of networking is just how much you can do with minimal effort in a short amount of time. So in this segment, we're actually going to show typical transformation of a company that's going from a traditional 100% on-premises world. Into something that's going to be going into the cloud. And so we're going to kind of basically go in time lapse fashion through those phases that a company will go to to bring the internet closer to their business. >> Okay, Vivek, you're going to show a demo. Set up the demo, what is the state? It's a real demo? Is it a canned demo? What's going on under the hood? Tell us through what's going to happen. >> It's an absolutely real demo. Everything you'll see in today's demo is going to be the real appliances. The links you'll see are going to be real. The traffic is going to be real. And it's going to be a fund demo. >> Well, the future networking and experiencing it is going to be exciting. Let's get through the demo. I'll just say as someone who's looking at all the complexity out there, people want to be agile, just so much complexity with IoT and AI, and all this network connections. People want simplicity. So you need to show simplicity and ease of use and value. I'm all interested. >> That's exactly it. Step one is we have to get out of the world of managing boxes. And we have to get into a software-defined world that's based on policy. So one of the first things that a company needs to do to start realizing these benefits of efficiency is to get away from the provisioning work that's involved in bringing up a new site. So that's the first thing that Vivek's going to show right now. >> John: Jump into it. Show us the demo. >> Vivek: Absolutely, so what you're looking at right now is the web console of SteelConnect Manager. This is Riverbed's SD-WAN solution. You're looking at a bunch of sites, a file company called Global Retail, which is spread all over the world. What I'm going to do now is bring up a new site, really zero touch provisioning, in Dallas, sitting here in Palo Alto. So let's get started. I'm going to jump right into Network Design and look at sites. I'll click here on Add Sites, and really just enter a few physical location details for my site in Dallas. And the moment I click here on Submit, not only is a pointer being created on the map for me, but there's a lot of automation and orchestration happening in the backend. What I mean by that is that there's a default uplink created for my Dallas site. And there's also a VLAN created for my site in Dallas. Of course, I can go and add more uplinks and VLANs for my site. But then a lot of this heavy lifting in terms of creating days is automatically done for me by SteelConnect. But right now it's just a pointer on the map, it's not a real site, we don't have an appliance. But that's the beauty of it, John. What SteelConnect let's me do is it gives me the flexibility and the freedom to deploy my entire site from ground up, my entire network from ground up, before I deploy the first piece of hardware. The way I'm able to do that is with this concept called shadow appliance, which is really a cardboard cutout of what will be once I have the hardware appliance. So I'm going to click here on Add Appliances. I'm going to say Create Shadow Appliance-- >> So shadow appliance, the customer knows the appliance. It might have the serial number. >> Yeah. >> But it's not connected, it's not even there yet. >> No, it's not even there yet. >> They're doing all the heavy lifting preparing for the drop in. >> Yeah, think of it as just designing it or drawing it on a white paper, except you get to see what your network's going to look like before you deploy anything. So I'm going to drop, let's say, and SDI-130 gateway, add my site in Dallas, which I just created. And click here on Submit. And that's the beauty of this, that now with this Shadow Appliance, I can click on this and really configure everything right down to the very port level. And once I do have the hardware, which I ship to someone and have someone plug it in. >> So now you configure, now the appliance could ship there. It could be anybody, it could be a non-employee, just says instruction, plug it in, and put this ethernet cable in. >> I'm sitting here in Palo Alto, I'm entering my appliance serial number. Click here on Submit. And now that the appliance is connected to the internet, it knows to contact Core Services in the cloud, download its configuration, it knows what organization it belongs to. And it comes online in a matter of seconds, really. You'll see that it's already online as I was talking to you. >> John: Let's just look at that, hold on, Dallas right there. >> Vivek: Yeah. >> John: Online, okay. >> Vivek: And when it says Pending, it means that it's actually downloading its current configuration. It's going to be up-to-date in less than a minute. And once it does that, when I look at the dashboard, this check mark will be green and it's going to start forming all its Ipsec VPN tunnels. >> It just turned green. >> Vivek: There you go. It's going to now start forming all those IPsec VPN tunnels to all my other existing sites automatically for me so that I don't have to do any of the heavy lifting. >> John: So does the self-discovery of the network, it just went red there real quick. >> Josh: That's okay, this is where it's going to start creating the VPN tunnels. >> Vivek: Right, it's basically associating all those, it's negotiating all the security associations with all my other appliances. >> So no one's involved? No humans involved. This is the machine, get plugged in, downloads the code. Then goes out and says where do I got to connect to my other networks? >> Yeah, the power of this is what you're not doing. So you could do all this by hand. And this is the way that legacy networks are configured, if you're still in a hardware-based approach. You have to go in and really think hard about the IP addresses, the subnets for each individual box, if you're going to create that full mesh connectivity, you're going to have to do that at an exponential level every time you deploy a new piece of hardware. So with this approach, with the design first, you don't have to do any staging. And when you deploy, the connectivity's going to happen for you automatically. >> John: Let's take a look at the sites, see if it turned green. >> Vivek: It's right now, if I click on it, you'll see that my appliance is online. But right now all the lines are red because it's still in the process of creating those IPsec VPN tunnels. But you'll see that in the next couple of minutes or so, all these lights will turn green. And what that means is now I have a single unified fabric of my entire network. But while we're waiting on that, let's actually move ahead and do something even cooler. Let's say our company called Global Retail wants to transition some of its applications to the cloud, because as we know, John, a lot of companies want to do that. For a few pennies on the dollar, you can make a lot of things somebody else's problem. So we've worked really hard with AWS and Microsoft to make that integration really work well. What I mean by that is when I click here on Network Design and EWS, I have a cross account access going between my SteelConnect Manager and AWS Marketplace so that I don't ever have to log back in to the AWS Marketplace again. Once I do that, I can see all of my VPCs across all of my regions, so that with a single click, and that's what I'm going to do here, I'm going to say connect to all my subnets in Frankfurt. I can choose to deploy a gateway instance of my choice in the Frankfurt site. So what I'm going to do now-- >> John: So you're essentially is telling Frankfurt, connect to my Amazon. And I'm going to set up some cloud stuff for you to work with. >> Vivek: So you already have your VPC infrastructure, or your VNET infrastructure in AWS or Azure. What I'm doing is I'm providing optimized automated connectivity for you. So I can choose to-- >> John: All with just one click of the button. >> Vivek: All with one click of a button. So you see that I can choose an EC2 and it's my choice. For the gateway I'm going to leave it to t2 medium. And then SteelHead, because WAN optimization, because the moment we start migrating huge datasets to the cloud in Frankfurt or say Ireland in Azure, latency becomes a real issue. So we want to be sure that we're also optimizing the traffic end-to-end. I'm going to leave redundancy to On so that there's high availability. And I'll leave AWS Routing to Auto. And I'll talk about that in just a bit. So when I click here on Submit, what's happening is SteelConnect is logging into my AWS account. It's looking at all my VPCs, it knows what subnets it has to connect to. It's going to plop a gateway appliance as well as a WAN optimization appliance, do all the plumbing between those appliances, and make sure that all the traffic is routed through the SteelHeads for WAN optimization. And it creates all the styles for me automatically. And the beauty of this solution, again, is that not only does it provide automated connectivity for me between say different regions of AWS, but also between AWS and Azure. We have suddenly become the cloud brokers of the world. We can provide automated optimized connectivity between AWS and Azure. So let me show that to you also. >> John: Yeah, show me the Azure integration. >> Vivek: So I'm going to search for maybe subnets in Europe, Ireland, I'm going to connect to that. The workflow is exactly the same. Once I do Connect, it gives me the option to deploy an instance of my gateway and my SteelHead. So I'm going to select that and then click on Submit. So now when I go back to my dashboard. You'll see that, oh, by the way, my Dallas site is now online and when I click on it, you'll see that all my tunnels have also come online. >> John: Beautiful. And Frankfurt and Ireland are up and running, 'cause you have the Amazon and Azure piece there. >> Vivek: It does take about four or seven minutes for those appliances to come online. They download their latest firmware, but that's not-- >> John: Minutes aren't hours, and that's not days. >> Vivek: Exactly, not hours, not days, not weeks. >> Right, I mean, a key use case here, when you think about cloud connectivity today, it's still rather tedious to connect your on-premise location into these cloud-based virtual environments. And so what network operators do is they do that in as few locations as possibly, typically in a data center. And what that means is now you're limited, because all the traffic that you need to go into those environments has to get back-called into your data center before going there. So, now, because this is automated, and it's all part of that same secure VPN, if you have some developers that are working on an app and they're using infrastructure as a service as part of their work, they can do that from whichever remote office they're sitting at, or their home office, or at a coffee shop. And there's no need to create that additional latency by back-calling them to the data center before going to the cloud. >> So all that stuff gets done automatically on the networking side with you guys. >> Exactly, exactly. So step one is really creating this easy button to have connectivity, both on-premises and in the cloud. >> Connectivity with all those benefits of the tunneling, and stuff that's either preexisting, or has been set up by (drowned by Josh). >> Exactly. Secure VPN, full mesh connectivity, across all the places where you're doing business or you need assets to run the cloud. Then the second phase is, okay, how do you want to dictate which applications are running over which circuits in this environment. And this is where, again, with a legacy approach, it's been really tedious to define which applications should be steered across one link, if you can identify those applications at all. So what Vivek's going to show next is the power of policy, and how you can make it easy to do some things that are very common, steering video, steering voice, and dealing with SaaS applications in the cloud. So you want to give 'em (mumbles) that? >> Vivek: Absolutely. So let's go to Rules and let's create a new traffic rule, say, I want to make sure that across all my sites for my organization, I want video, which is a bandwidth intensive application, as we all know. Doesn't really choke up my MPLS link, which is my most precious link across all my sites. I should be able to configure that with as much ease, as I just said it. So let's do that. We can do that with software defining intelligence of SteelConnect. I can apply that rule to all my sites, all my users, and I'm going to select applicationS where I search for video. There's already a pre-configured application group. For video, I'm going to select Online Collaboration and Video. And under Path Preference, I'm going to say that for this application, don't use my MPLS as my primary, >> John: And the reason for that is to split traffic between the value of the links cost or importance. >> Vivek: Exactly. Load balancing is really important. So I'm just going to save that is my primary-- >> John: Applying people that are watching YouTube videos or-- = (laughs) Yeah. Exactly, exactly. >> Video is one of the biggest hogs of balance. It's basically creating an insatiable demand. So you definitely need to look for your best option in terms of capacity. And with the internet broadband, maybe you're going to sacrifice a little bit on quality, but video deals with that pretty well. But it's just hard to configure that at each and every single box where you're trying to do that. >> Vivek: Yeah. As opposed to configuring that on each and every individual box, or individual site I'm creating that's globally applying rule to all my sites. And I'm going to select MPLS as a secondary. I'm going to set a path quality profile, which means that if there's some severe degradation in my internet link, go ahead and use my MPLS link. So I'm going to say latency sensitive metrics. And I'm going to apply a DSCP type of high. Click here on Subnet. And the moment I turn this rule on, it automatically updates all of the IPs, all of the uplinks, all of the routes across my entire organization. >> John: So you're paying the quality of service, concepts, to all dimensions of apps. >> Absolutely, whether it's from video-- >> Video, Snapchat, live streaming to downloading, uploading. >> Vivek: Yeah, and I can create the same kind of rule, even for voice where maybe I have my MPLS, since that's my primary and most precious link available for all my sites. Have as a primary in my secondary as my route VPN, which is my-- >> John: If you're a call center, you want to have, probably go with the best links, right? >> Vivek: Exactly, and assign it to DSCP type of urgent so that that traffic is set at the expense of all my other traffic. >> John: Awesome. That's great suff. Policy is great for cloud, what about security? Take us through a demo of security. >> So that's a really good question. I mean, as soon as you're starting to use internet broadband connectivity in these remote locations. One of the first things you think about is security. With the secure VPN connectivity, you're assuring that that traffics encrypted, end to end, if it's going from branch to data center, even branch into cloud. And that was really step one that Vivek showed earlier. Step two is when you realize, you know what? There's certain applications that are living in the cloud, things like Office 365, or Salesforce.com that truly are a trusted extension of our business. So let's turn that spigot up a little bit and let's steer those applications that we trust direct from branch to the internet. And by doing that, we can avoid, again, that back-call into the data center. And with an application-defined approach, this becomes really easy. >> Vivek: Yeah, and I can do that with a very simple rule here, too. I'm going to apply that rule to all my sites. I'm going to say for application, let's say, trusted SaaS apps, like Salesforce, Dropbox and Box. I'm going to select a group called Trusted SaaS apps. And now under Path Preference I'm going to say for these applications, I know that I've said on organization default, that for all my traffic, go over my MPLS link, and break out the internet that way, but for some applications that I've defined as trusted SaaS apps, break out to the internet directly. >> John: Those are apps that they basically say are part of our business operations, Salesforce, WorkDay, whatever they might be. >> Vivek: Absolutely. So you're opening that spigot just a little bit, as Josh was talking about. And I can choose to apply a path quality profile so that there's a dynamic path quality based path selection, and apply, of course, priority. I'm going to leave it to high and Submit. And the powerful thing about this is even though I've applied this to all my sites, I can choose to apply this to individual sites, or maybe individual VLAN in a site, or an individual user group, or even a single user for follow the user policies. And that's the entire essence of the software-defined intelligence of SteelConnect. The ease with which we can deploy these rules across our entire organization or go as granular to a single user is a very powerful concept. >> Josh: One of the things, too, John, in terms of security, which you were asking about earlier is that not only is a policy-base approach helping you be efficient, how you configure this, but it's also helping you be efficient in how you audit, that your security policies are in place. Because if you were doing this on a box-by-box basis, if you really truly wanted to do an audit with a security team, you're going to have to look at every single box, make sure there's no typo whatsoever in any of those commands. But, here, we've just made a policy within the company that there are certain applications that are trusted. We have one policy, we see that it's on, and we know that our default is to back-call everything else. And so that becomes the extent of the audit. The other thing that's interesting is that by just turning off this policy, that becomes your rollback. The other thing that's really hard about configuring boxes with lots of commands is that it's almost sometimes impossible to roll things back. So here you have a really easy button on a policy-by-policy basis to rollback if you need to. >> John: And just go clean sheet. But this path-based steering is an interesting concept. You go global across all devices. He has a rollback and go in individually to devices as well. >> Josh: That's right, that's right. Now this next click of bringing that internet closer to you is where you say, "You know what? "In addition to trusted SaaS applications, "let's go ahead and half even recreational "internet traffic, go straight from the branch out to the internet at large. >> John: Love that term recreational internet. (Josh laughs) I's just like the playground, go play out there in the wild. (all laughing) There's bad guys out there. But that's what you mean, there's traffic that's essentially, you're basically saying this is classified as assume the worst, hope for the best. >> Right, exactly, and that's where you do have to protect yourself from a network security standpoint. So that next step is to say, okay, well, instead of back-calling all of that recreational dangerous internet traffic, what if we could put some more powerful IDS/IPS capabilities out there at the edge. And you can do that by deploying traditional firewall, more hardware at those edge devices. But there's also cloud-based approaches to security today. So what Vivek is going to show next is some of the power of automation and policy that we've integrated with one cloud security broker named named Zscaler. >> Vivek: Zcaler, yes. >> John: Jump into it. >> Vivek: Our engineers have been working very closely with engineers from Zscaler. And really the end result is this. Where we do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of connecting to the Zscaler cloud. What I mean by that is what you're looking at on the SteelConnect interface, going back to that entire concept of a single pane of glass is that you can see all your Zscaler nodes from SteelConnect right here. And on a side-by-side basis, we will automatically select for you what Zscaler nodes are the closest to you based on minimum latency. And we select a primary and a secondary. We also give you the option of manually selecting that. But, by default, we'll select that for you. So that any traffic that you want to break out to the internet will go to the Zscaler cloud like it's a WAN cloud by itself. So I can go to my organization and networking default and say that, hey, you know what? For all my traffic break out, by default, to the Zscaler crowd as the primary, so that it's all additionally inspected over there for all those IDS and IPS capabilities that Josh was talking about. And then break out to the internet from there. And that's, again, a very powerful concept. And just to remind you, though, the traffic patrol that we just created for trusted SaaS apps will still bypass the Zscaler cloud, because we've asked those applications to go directly out the internet. >> John: Because of the path information. But Zscaler about how that works, because you mentioned it's a cloud. >> Vivek: Yes. >> John: Is it truly a cloud? Is it always on? Whats' the relationships? >> I mean, this is what's interesting. And the cloud is basically a collection of data centers that are all connected together. And so some of the complexity and effort involved in integrating a cloud-based security solution like Zscaler is still often very manual. So without this type of integration, this collaboration we've done with them, you would still have to go into each box and basically manually select and choose which data center of Zscaler's should we be directing to. And if they add a new data center that's closer, you would have to go and reconfigure it. So there's a lot of automation here where the system is just checking what's my best access into Zscaler's cloud, over and over again. And making sure that traffic is going to be routed (drowned by John). >> And so Zscaler's always on, has like always on security model. >> Active, backup, exactly, there's many of those locations (drowned by John) as well >> All right, so visibility now as the internet connections are key to the zero-touch provisioning you guys demoed earlier. IoT is coming around the corner and it's bringing new devices to the network. That's more network connections. So we're usually there, who was that person out there? Who was that device? A lot of unknown autonomous... So how do I use the visibility of all this data? >> Yeah, visibility's important to every organization. And once we start talking about autonomous networks, it becomes even more important for us to dive deeper and make sure that our networks are performing the way we want them to perform. It goes back to that entire concept of trust but verified. So I'm creating all these policy rules, but how do I know that it's actually working? So if you look at my interface now. Actually, let's pause for a second and just enjoy what we've done so far. (John and Josh laugh) You'll see that my-- >> A lot of green. >> Vivek: A lot of green and a lot of green lines. So this is my site in AWS, which I just brought up and this is my site in Ireland. So if I click on the tunnel between-- >> John: Are those the only two cloud sites or the rest on-premise? >> Vivek: The rest are all on-premise, exactly. So if I want to, say, click on the tunnel over here between my Azure site and my AWS site, which I just brought up. It gives me some basic visibility parameters like what's my outbound and inbound true port, what's my latency jitter and packet laws? We don't see any real values here because we're not sending any data right now. >> John: Well, if you would, you would see full connection points. You can make decisions, or like workloads to be there. So as you look at connection to cloud-- >> Vivek: It's all real-time data, but if you want to dive in deeper, we can look at what we call SteelCentral Insights for SteelConnect. So you can look at-- >> Whoa, you're going too fast. Back up for a second. This is an insights dashboard powered by what data? >> Vivek: Powered By the data that is being pulled from all of those gateways. >> Those green, all those points. >> Vivek: All those green points. >> John: So this is where the visualizaiton of the data gives the user some information to act on, understand, make course corrections, understanding success. >> Exactly. >> John: Okay, now take us through this again, please. >> Vivek: So you can look at what your top uplinks. Also I'm looking at my site in New York City, so I can look at what my top uplinks are, what my top applications are, who are my top users. Who's using BitTorrent? I can see here that Nancy Clark is using BitTorrent, so I might have to go ahead and create a rule to block that. >> Talking about what movies she's got. >> Or have a chat with her. Yeah. >> What kind of movies she just downloaded, music. So you can actually look at the application type. So you mentioned BitTorrent. So same with the video, even though you're passed steering, you still see everything for this? >> Vivek: Absolutely. >> Exactly, I mean, this is application-defined networking in action, where the new primitives that network administrators and architects are now able to use are things like application, user, location, performance SLA, like the priority of that application, any security constraint. And that's very much aligned to the natural language of business. When the business is talking about which users are really important for which applications that they're sending, to which locations. I mean, now you have a pane of glass, that you can interact with that is basically aligned to that. And that's some of the power there. >> John: All right, so what are you showing here now? Back to the demo. >> Vivek: Back to the demo. The next part of the demo is actually a bonus segment. We're going to talk about integration with Xirrus Wifi. We recently announced that we are working with Xirrus. We bought them. And we're really excited to show how these two products, Xirrus Access Point, Xirrus Wifi and SteelConnect can work hand in glove with each other, because this goes back to the entire concept of not just SD-WAN, but SD-LAN for an end-to-end software-defined network. So what I want to show you next is really hot off the pressess-- >> John: And this is new tech you're showing? New technology? >> Vivek: Yes. >> Josh: So when SteelConnect was launched last year, there are wifi capabilities in the gateways that Vivek showed during the zero touch provisioning part. Xirrus is well regarded as having some of the most dense capabilities for access hundreds-- >> John: Like stadiums, well, we all know that, we all live that nightmare. I've got all these bars on wifi but no connectivity. >> Exactly, so stadiums, conventions. When you think about the world of IoT that's coming, and just how many devices are going to be vying for that local area wifi bandwidth. You need to have an architecture like Xirrus that has multiple radios that can service all those things. And so what we've been doing is taking the steps as quickly as possible to bring the Xirrus Wifi in addition with the wifi that SteelConnect already had into the same policy framework. 'Cause you don't want to manage those things necessarily going forward as different and distinct entities. >> So SteelConnect has the wifi, let's see the demo. >> Exactly. So I'm now moving to a different overview where we have about four or five sites. And I'm going to go ahead and add an appliance. And I'm going to add the Xirrus access point, and deploy it in my site at Chicago. So I just click here on Submit and you'll see that the access point will come online in less than a minute. And once it does come online, I can actually start controlling the Xirrus access point, not just from the XMS cloud, which is the Xirrus dashboard, but also from SteelConnect Manager. Going back to that concept of single pane of glass. So-- >> John: We have another example of zero-touch provisioning. Scan the device, someone just plugs it in and installs it. Doesn't have to be an expert, could be the UPS guy. Could be anybody. >> Vivek: Anybody. Just connect it to the right port, and you're done. And that's what it is here, so you'll see that this appliance in Chicago, which is a Xirrus Access Point, is online. And now I can go ahead and play with it. I can choose to deploy an SSID and broadcast it at my site in Chicago. You see that I'm already broadcasting Riverbed-2. And when I go to my XMS dashboard, I can see that one access point is actually op. This is the same access point that we just deployed in the Chicago site. And that profile called Chicago is already configured. So when I click on it, I can see that my SSID is also displaying over here. And I can do so much more with this interface. >> John: It really brings network management into the operational realm of networking. Future experience of networking is not making it as a separate function, but making it integral part of deploying, provisioning, configuring. >> Exactly, and the policies to automate how it's all used. So if we just take a step back. What we literally did in just a few minutes, we deployed a new location in Dallas without anybody needing to be there other than to plug in the box. We extended the connectivity from on-premises, not only into one cloud, but two clouds, AWS and Azure. We started leveraging public internet in these remote sites to offload our MPLS for video. We steered SaaS applications that were trusted out there directly to the internet. And then we pulled in a third-party capability of Zscaler to do additional security scrubbing in these remote locations. That applies to every single site that's in this environment. And we literally did it while we were talking about the value and the use cases. >> Great demo, great SD-WAN in action. Josh, Vivek, thanks for taking the time to give the demo. Experiencing the future of networking in real time, thanks for the demo, great stuff. >> Thanks, John. >> This is theCube watching special SD-WAN in action with Riverbed. Thanks for watching, I'm John Furrier. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C, it's theCUBE. Covering .NEXT Conference. Bought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to .NEXT everybody inside the district kind of. This is Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. We're with theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day two of NEXTConf. Aaditya Sood is here, he's the director of, Senior Director of Engineering and Products at Nutanix and Binny Gill who is the Chief Architect at the company. Gentlemen welcome to theCUBE. >> Both: Thank you. >> Good to see you again. >> Nice to be here. >> So you guys had the great keynote I love how, Dheerraj interacts with you on the stage. Asks you these Columbo questions even though he has deep knowledge of what's goin' on it's really quite good. But Binny let me start with you, first of all what's the show like this year we've been now this is our third year doing. >> Yeah. >> NEXT, we've seen quite an evolution. From your standpoint from the hardcore product side what are you seeing? >> I think it's exciting to be here, this year we are seeing almost every year doubling of the attendance in the conference and also the excitement that we hear from our Nutanix technical champions and our customers is a lot more visceral. In terms of how much we are doing in terms of vision and mission and as we are executing on our vision that has always been are we sure you can do it kind of thing, but as we deliver every year there's more conviction that we are seeing from all these people here so it's really exciting. >> Aaditya I wonder if you could talk about Calm a little bit it is your baby. People say Calm I'm calm, is the joke goin' around today what is Calm? >> Well Calm is many things at once, but most of all it's a control plane at the application layer. How do you build this multi-cloud hybrid cloud technology together? And manage the entire life cycle, compliance, governance, provisioning, costing, visibility all of these things together? >> And Aaditya there's many companies that have tried to attack this challenge why did you when you help co-found Calm think that you could address this and bring us up to speed as to the acquisition last year what is being part of Nutanix what did that do to the product itself to lead us to today? >> I think addressing the first part of your question why we think this is different many people have tried to do this, blueprints and these things over the many decades automation has been around. But I think this is fundamentally 10X to a 100X better because of the logical approach we are taking, the data model we have built which models applications and tries to keep the logical layer separate from the physical layer or the virtual layer. Thinking about the Nutanix integration was homecoming. This was, practically nothing changed from our point of view except that we got, became part of a much bigger family, a lot of warmth there a lot of technical goodness, a lot of I would say systems level and platform goodness that got leveraged in. So it's been all pretty great the last say what nine months or so. >> Alright Binny we want to get your view point of course Nutanix has been growing its ecosystem. We've got a big expo hall with a lot of partners there, what were the goals that you wanted to make sure you hit? By the time we came to this show with Calm to meet your customers and this growing ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think what we're looking at is explaining how we are building an operating system. An operating system is a platform for running applications and now the platform for running applications in fact changing earlier it used to be Linux and Windows now it's Clouds. Cloud is an OS, and when you talk about building OSs it's about ecosystem, it's about the drivers, it's about the partners that build stuff for you. Calm is a way of inviting them to a marketplace. A repository for where you put your stuff. Calm is also your YUM in app kit tool, one click deployment of any application the more simple you make it the more a person will be attracted to your operating system so the message here is look we are developing a marketplace bringing Calm to the picture, giving an operating system that can run on any hardware. Hardware meaning any cloud, any hypervice and so on. >> How much can I ask Stu, how much that one click if you think about the the lifecycle of what has to occur in that one click and then by the way everything else that you don't do how much time do you think you're saving people? I mean take database as a service, yes one click but then you got to do regression testing, you got to do some recovery testing but you're taking away a lot of the planning presumably. >> Yeah absolutely. >> Do you have any sense as to if it takes 100 how much you just shaved off with one click? >> Yeah, I mean I think there's the best person to answer that question his team has been working on this for seven years. >> And this is something that again touching back on what Calm does differently that it understands that provisioning your application is only the beginning of your problems. You have an application now you have to grow it, scale it, it's going to blow up, you need to upgrade it, test it, certify it and all that stuff. And that's where the application lifecycle management part comes in. As a rough estimate I would say at least 70 to 80% of the complexity has gone away. There is still some complexity because there is an essential complexity in every problem cannot reduce it beyond that. But I'd say off the ballpark 70, 80. >> I like that number so I kind of baited you, the practitioner that we had on today said at least, he's being conservative because that's what IT guys do he said at least 50% so we can fairly say let's say 50 to 70% you've just taken off the table so they can now focus on higher quality, testing, recovery and even in the fun stuff as Stu likes to say. (laughs) >> Absolutely, and Aadiyta there was the joke in the keynote that this is not an app store so what do you see the one click is obviously is a critical piece but how's this different from think of the Amazon Marketplace or other we've talked about do we need an enterprise app store, how is this different, how do customers perceive this? What early feedback have you been getting? >> I think one of the problems that we are trying to solve and how we are looking at it is every platform let's say every public cloud, every private cloud they have some amount of tooling and automation already built in. But from a customer point of view these are all just different independent silos. So if you go look at any marketplace it's on EWS only. And what we are trying to do is this is means to an end. I'm running five different kind of infrastructure stacks I want a single app store for my consumers internally. My business user doesn't care where the application is provisioned as long as we can write them the right SLAs and cost ROI for their internal application. >> What's important about this, I wonder if we can riff on it for a bit so we weren't the first to say this I think it was probably Benioff that more non-tech companies will be SaaS companies than tech companies. So that says that they need a stack to build their SaaS. So that marketplace that you showed you had Cassandra, Mongo, MySQL and Redes and TensorFlow and all of these tools. That'll allow a SaaS provider to build their own stack. So I wonder if we could talk about this a little bit in terms of the vision of the next generation company, not just tech company. And how you see yourselves fitting into that as an enabler. Comments. >> I think as an analogy I'd like to take how they the electronics industry evolved. Back in the 70's and 80's the semi-conductor explosion happened. And any kind of functionality that I wanted I looked at the catalog, I looked at the cost, the yield rates, the functionality that chip provided. I just went and bought those chips and I plugged them in, and I built my (mumbles) out of it. And this is how I think this is going to evolve. That we are just going to move the level of abstraction one higher level. Have usable fundamental components, compose them together and have a faster time to market. Do as an application developer do I really need to understand how Bongo scales and how it's provisioned and how it's backed up and everything? I want a single EPI or a one click experience equal in my view to just plug it into my application and then go on from there. And then take this my application and deliver it as a unit to my user which can then go ahead and just like Lego blocks keep building higher and higher layers of functionality. >> Yeah Aaditya brought up a key point there with APIs right. Anytime an OS is developed after some point you talk about what is the standardization of APIs on top of this OS? Like Posix was a standard of APIs in an operating system. This new cloud operating system is actually asking for a standardization of API so that the applications built on top of it can enjoy a guaranteed stable API that'll be portable across various hardwares and clouds. We are seeing the beginning of the that kind of API with the work that Aaditya's team is doing around our blueprints, our lifecycle that's coming to the floor right now. >> Aaditya one of the things I usually hear after a company gets acquired by a bigger company is the amount of feedback they get from the customers. Nutanix is a little bit self-selecting customers that are usually looking to try something different. What's been your experience with the Nutanix customer base? Has that impacted or shifted where you were looking to drive the product? >> It has certainly, informed the product roadmap but I wouldn't say it has fundamentally changed it. Because one of the key things and one of the great things about Nutanix is that we are building open systems. Which is why even in the keynote that you saw when we are going and provisioning an application we are not saying this is Nutanix only, we are treating each of the computer platform an independent equivalent level. And that was our vision right from the start to bring the goodness at the top layer and then leverage some deep platform stuff like we can obviously work best on Nutanix because we get underlying data from the storage systems, the virtualization systems and we'll run on that. But, yeah fundamentally it has not really changed anything. >> Ambitious. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Binny the question I have for you is if I look at the public cloud they all want to own the applications in one way or another. Google's pretty a little bit more open but Microsoft lots of business apps, Amazon have dealt with next generation apps, how does Nutanix look at that app ownership? Obviously you come from the infrastructure side but how does your view point differ say from some other clouds? >> Our viewpoint is more like how players like Apple look at owning the app. I mean you have an app store or a marketplace but that is sort of democratic I do have my own apps I could have my mail app, my camera app but I am neutral in the sense that I enable others to create a better app if they can because it only helps my platform. So we are in the business of creating the best in class operating system we're calling it Enterprise Cloud Operating System and then enabling that cloud operating system to run on any farm factor any hypervice and or hardware or going all the way to the edge as you might have talked to others in this conference our cloud operating system can run on a single node now down from three nodes, to two nodes to one node to a intel node in a drone. That is where we're going, enable everybody. And on these various farm factors different applications would run. I would say a small fraction of the applications that are key to most customers to get to 80% of the simple use cases might come from us but the majority of the use cases would come from outside. And eventually we look at this as we primarily building the OS and the world building an app, app store or marketplace on top of us. >> Alright gents we have to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> It was really a pleasure seeing you again. >> As always take care. >> Okay keep it right there Stu and I will be back with our next guest right after this short break. This is theCUBE we're live from NEXTConf in D.C.. We'll be right back. (exciting music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host John Troyer. We're really digging in to some of the practitioners here on day three of our coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program, a Cube alum. Not only that, a super user, and not only that, a cowinner Paddy Power Betfair, Steve Armstrong, principal automation engineer. Thanks so much for joining us and congratulations to you and all team. >> Thank you, thanks very much. >> Alright, so, we've had you on the program, bring us up to speed, you know, where's your OpenStack deployment going, where are you spending your time? You know, at the event and stuff. >> So we're just recently, last year, merged companies, so what we're doing with it at OpenStack implantation at the moment is we're migrating all of our applications onto it from the merged company, so we're in the migration phase of the project at the moment, so we just recently, just after Christmas, had the hundred applications onto the platform. Mayston, we're now up to around 200 applications, so what we're doing with it is we've got a single customer platform which is the Merscode base of the two companies, and then we're going to run different branding from it. So in terms of OpenStack, what we're doing is we're looking to do an upgrade in the next month, as well. We had the session earlier on today where we went through that, so hopefully that was insightful for the people that were here. >> So fascinating, I'll tell you what, one of the, you know, there are many challenges with mergers and acquisitions. IT can be atrocious. I've worked with plenty of companies, if they're small, the parent company comes in, rips out the entire thing, and puts a new thing. How's OpenStack, is that an enabler? Do you see it as a marked improvement? Any findings that you've got so far? >> Well I think with OpenStack, it is very flexible because we're using it as the Middleware for the whole platform, and so we've got different storage vendors, we can just substitute the end and then go to the OpenStack APIs, that programmatically control everything. So, it's really useful for us, so if we ever wanted to essentially use a new storage vendor then we don't have to rewrite all the self-service orchestration our developers are using and interrupt them, so that's really, that's key for us and our business. >> It's interesting you use the word middleware. I haven't heard that word used in terms of OpenStack, but you mean the layer, literally the layer, between storage networking the raw infrastructure, and the app on top. >> Yeah, so what we're really doing, we've created self-service template that our development teams use, and we then want multiple different ways for teams to create virtual machines and basically go the APIs directly, so what we've done is we've created a layer using Felt Works School, and where development teams fill in self-Service yamafells with all the details that it needs and then they can send them for structure that way, so we're simplifying it and making it user-friendly for them so that when they're onboarding an application, they don't actually need to come to the infrastructure team. They can basically self-serve against OpenStack, so I think that's giving them that EWS or Google Cloud or Azure-like ability within the private cloud, and we've had to really change the way our business is set-up to actually operate that, so generally what we've done is we set up different teams where they're more T-shaped teams, so you, in a T-shape team, you have a network engineer, you have a storage guy, you have some automation engineers, someone maybe from a development background, and what we really did with it, when we're building the pilot process, we tried to encapsulate all those different scales within the one team and set them up as a core team that would then go and build the infrastructure using best practices from each discipline. >> So a T-shaped in the sense that, the team is still cross-functional, what's the 'T' of the T-shape. >> So, the debt of the T is really the deep-dive expertise, so you might have a network engineer who has a deep-dive knowledge in that, but what we're trying to do is expand the teams breadth, so the breadth is the T is really the other disciplines that they are learning as part of that team. >> And congrats on the award again. >> Steve: Thank you. >> As they talked about the award, some of the description of why you got the award, they did mention, the words dev-ops and CICDs. You talked a little bit about an order structure and changing your org, and processes to do that. Now do you call that T-shaped, is that a dev-ops team for you, or how do you all look at it? >> We don't really like to use dev-ops team because it is kind of a- >> That was a trick question. >> Yeah, a leading question, so it was really, a. What we try to do is have cross-functional teams so really dev-ops for us, what it means, is more collaboration between those teams. We've still got teams at the moment within our business that are looking after the heritage legacy stacks at the moment, so what we'll need to do going forward in our business is bring those teams into the fold cause we've really had, I mean, essentially what we're doing at the moment, it's, like, gotten our bimodal, where you essential have more to, we're beltless. We need to take that to the next level and basically bring the people that have been looking after the other parts of the business because you need to maintain them while we're doing this new private-cloud implementation, along on that journey, so we're running training sessions now for our network engineers, teaching them mansible skill in the map, so it's really exciting time, just bringing on that journey. >> I actually think that's fascinating, because there's been a lot of talk about bimodal, type one versus type two and the word from the community and from the end users' raids, that's not sustainable. So, what you're saying is is indeed you can organize that way, but you've got to bring the old teams- >> Yeah, I think you can put names on anything, but generally that's what you do, you stand up, we stood up a brand new Greenfield implementation. You needed to people to go over to that, and act in a different way because OpenStack, it doesn't make sense having different styles, looking after different components of it, because OpenStack centralizes that into middleware, so it's actually quite difficult to chop that up into different styles. If you're going to do it, you couldn't have someone just looking after sender for instance because it's so incorporated with the rest of the stack. So really what we're doing is we're exposing that API layer to the developers and allowing them to self-service against it, and then we look after the core team, the maintenance of it, so we've done this with the team. Eight people looking after the core platform, and then we've got multiple different teams that went out and they helped the developers onboard many applications onto the platform by teaching them the self-service workflows and how to fill out all the yama files, and then if there's any feedback from them, we use a continuous improvement model to try and get them to improve the platform continuously. So, it's a continuum process and it's gets better and better each day, and hopefully we're going to speed up the amount of deployment that we can do and speed up take to market for it. >> Nice. So Steve, we've very much appropriated, you know, your organization sharing with our community. You're very active, obviously, in the super user. Talk about how you interact with your peers, you know, how that helped with your learnings, kind of that give and take that you have with the community. >> Yeah, so with the community, really, we come to these events, and we generally try to be as open as possible and just talk about our lessons learned. I think the OpenStack Summit's great for that because people are very honest. It's not like vendor-led. And met-ups, for instance, where they'll just tell you that everything's great and they're very self-deprecating in some of the sessions, but I think that honesty with the OpenSource community and the continual learning that you get from that is really key to actually looking at the problems, seeing 'OK, we're not 100% perfect' cause you never will be, and continuously improving as a community. So, I think having the belief then to drive with the OpenSource community is very key in that, and because that, I think, what you can do is if something in OpenStack isn't working the way that you want it to, you can contribute back and you can actually help make a difference and make it better. That's what we're trying to and there's projects such as Vitrush or Rickos and Alice's where at the moment you don't have a sense of plug-in, we use senses, so we begin to contribute back in write in a plug-in for that project so that we can use it, and then others basically benefit from that as well, so I think that's where OpenStack's very key. Your hear Edward Snowden's keynote, some controversial things in there, but at the same time, the premise was really if your putting your data somewhere else, like in public cloud, you don't actually know what's happening with, so that was something that resonated quite well because you have to look at what workload you want to run in public cloud and which ones you can run in private cloud, so I think it would really... We're just getting on to the next stages, and evolution and that journey where we will be looking at what workloads we place where, and I think that is where tubes like Cooper Nessus are really thriving, because they can place workloads wherever you want, and that's the popularity is so high. >> I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your company's corporate culture that allows, you know, this movement. I think, you know, information's open, eventually the house always wins on these bets, alright, with so much information available. >> Yeah, so, I think for us, the way that we've been able to do this is we've had sponsorship from CT level and Director level down, and it's very hard when you're doing a grassroots movement of just engineers trying to do this from the ground up. You really have to have a company that believes in this philosophy and wants to take it forward. And for us, what we really wanted to was just create a platform that allowed our developers to innovate on it, and just basically make the best tubes possible for our customers. >> So you're a longtime OpenStack user. We're now here in Boston, you know, Summits every six months. Anything in particular about the mood of people, the operators here, kind of how you would like to see both, you know, we've talked about Cooper and Eddie's, you've talked about different modules that you might want to see, you know, some activity in, or, just how you see in the future, path of OpenStack, how would you like the community and the project to grow? >> Well, I think there is a lot of presentations on stand-alone apps in OpenStack, so you have center stand-alone for box storage, you have ironic stand-alone. We use some of those projects to actually build it out, so I think module-bar rising it, and allowing it to be used, you might not want to install all of OpenStack, but why can't you install sender for instance, to control box storage, and so I think that's really the future of it. People could take all of it, or they could take different components of it, and I think that's what we're seeing in the community. People want to be able to install sender to help manage it, and maybe not install neutron or keystone alongside it, so I think that's really where OpenStack is going. It will be a modular metal service framework that makes it up, and you can install the best that you want in the project that you want. We've also seen a consolidation of projects, that the results of talk are in that eventually making projects simpler and removing features. I think when we originally had OpenStack, we just tried to throw every feature possible in, and then you seen a sprawl of projects, and then that's not maintainable. I think what we're getting down to is just the key projects that then use going forward, So I think you see the consolidation and then stand-alone instances that you can kind of plug-in the edges. >> So, Steve, let me speak a little bit about your business. I have to think there's few companies, you know, at least definitely fewer industries, that, deal with the rate of change and the uncertainty in the world, you know, more than really gambling in everything, that happens there. Anything changing in kind of the relationship of IT to the business? How does OpenStack help you respond to a very dynamic environment. >> Yeah, so, I think the key thing for us, is if one of our competitors has a feature, and we can't compete with that feature, we just will loose our customers to that competitor. So really being able to change and use OpenStack to change the platform and get new products out to market as quickly as possible is very key for us. Generally OpenStack is helping is we want an active, active data center We have a 24/7 business. We really need to have that uptake. If we are down, any sporting event, our customers will go somewhere else to place bets. So that's really key. And, for us, we've used OpenStack across two data centers, and built that out, and what we're looking to do is scale that out horizontally. So, for instance, when we've got new applications coming up onboard, we can just scale out new ratchets in openstack, we use ironic. We're completely controlling the whole data center programmatically, and that allows us the ability to scale up the infrastructure to meet the demands so that people are not waiting on tickets, or not having the internal IT processes that are handling most of our firms, so that's really where OpenStack is allowing us to evolve is that flexibility in having a private cloud just like you would a public cloud with VWS, but we've got that in-house. So I think we're quite lucky, and I keep telling the garages that are working on this, this is a once in a lifetime project, and I don't think they'll really believe me until they get their next job, so I think they're being quite spoiled in this as well. >> Steve Armstrong, really appreciate you joining us again on the program, and once again congratulations at Paddy Power Betfair and the whole team, and John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts You're watching the Cube.

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.

>> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE we're at the data privacy day at Twitter's world headquarters in downtown San Fransciso and we're really excited to get into it with our next guest Dr. Andreas Weigend, he is now at the Social Data Lab, used to be at Amazon, recently published author. Welcome. >> Good to be here, morning. >> Absolutely, so give us a little about what is Social Data Lab for people who aren't that familiar with it and what are you doing over at Berkeley? >> Alright, so let's start with what is social data? Social data is a data people create and share whether they know it or not and what that means is Twitter is explicit but also a geo location or maybe even just having photos about you. I was in Russia all day during the election day in the United States with Putin, and I have to say that people now share on Facebook what the KGB wouldn't have gotten out of them under torture. >> So did you ever see the Saturday Night Live sketch where they had a congressional hearing and the guy the CIA guy says, Facebook is the most successful project that we've ever launched, people tell us where they are who they're with and what they're going to do, share pictures, location, it's a pretty interesting sketch. >> Only be taught by Black Mirror, some of these episodes are absolutely amazing. >> People can't even watch is it what I have not seen I have to see but they're like that's just too crazy. Too real, too close to home. >> Yeah, so what was the question? >> So let's talk about your new book. >> Oh that was social data. >> Yeah social data >> Yeah, and so I call it actually social data revolution. Because if you think back, 10, 20 years ago we absolutely we doesn't mean just you and me, it means a billion people. They think about who they are, differently from 20 years ago, think Facebook as you mentioned. How we buy things, we buy things based on social data we buy things based on what other people say. Not on what some marketing department says. And even you know, the way we think about information I mean could you do a day without Google? >> No >> No. >> Could you go an hour without Google? >> An hour, yes, when I sleep. But some people actually they Google in their sleep. >> Well and they have their health tracker turned on while they sleep to tell them if they slept well. >> I actually find this super interesting. How dependent I am to know in the morning when I wake up before I can push a smiley face or the okay face or the frowny face, to first see how did I sleep? And if the cycles were nice up and down, then it must have been a good night. >> So it's interesting because the concept from all of these kind of biometric feedback loops is if you have the data, you can change your behavior based on the data, but on the other hand there is so much data and do we really change our behaivor based on the data? >> I think the question is a different one. The question is alright, we have all this data but how can we make sure that this data is used for us, not against us. Within a few hundred meters of here there's a company where employees were asked to wear a fit bit or tracking devices which retain more generally. And then one morning one employee came in after you know not having had an exactly solid night of sleep shall we say and his boss said I'm sorry but I just looked at your fit bit you know this is an important meeting, we can't have you at that meeting. Sorry about that. >> True story? >> Yeah >> Now that's interesting. So I think the fit bit angle is interesting when that is a requirement to have company issued health insurance and they see you've been sitting on your couch too much. Now how does that then run into the HIPPA regulations. >> You know, they have dog walkers here. I'm not sure where you live in San Francisco. But in the area many people have dogs. And I know that a couple of my neighbors they give when the dog walker comes to take the dog, they also give their phone to the dog walker so now it looks like they are taking regular walks and they're waiting for the discount from health insurance. >> Yeah, it's interesting. Works great for the person that does walk or gives their phone to the dog walker. But what about the person that doesn't, what about the person that doesn't stop at stop signs. What happens in a world on business models based on aggregated risk pooling when you can segment the individual? >> That is a very very very biased question. It's a question of fairness. So if we know everything about everybody what would it mean to be fair? As you said, insurance is built on pooling risk and that means by nature that there are things that we don't know about people. So maybe, we should propose lbotomy data lobotomy. So people actually have some part chopped off out of the data chopped off. So now we can pool again. >> Interesting >> Of course not, the answer is that we as society should come up with ways of coming up with objective functions, how do we weigh the person you know taking a walk and then it's easy to agree on the function then get the data and rank whatever insurance premium whatever you're talking about here rank that accordingly. So I really think it's a really important concept which actually goes back to my time at Amazon. Where we came up with fitness functions as we call it. And it takes a lot of work to have probably spent 50 hours on that with me going through groups and groups and groups figuring out, what do we want the fitness function to be like? You have to have the buy in of the groups you know it they just think you know that is some random management thing imposed on us, it's not going to happen. But if they understand that's the output they're managing for, then not bad. >> So I want to follow up on the Amazon piece because we're big fans of Jeff Hamilton and Jeff Bezzos who we go to AWS and it's interesting excuse me, James Hamilton when he talks about the resources that EWS can bring to bear around privacy and security and networking and all this massive infrastructure being built in terms of being able to protect privacy once you're in the quote un-quote public cloud versus people trying to execute that at the individual company level and you know RSA is in a couple of weeks the amount of crazy scary stuff that is coming in for people that want interviews around some of this crazy security stuff. When you look at kind of public cloud versus private cloud and privacy you know supported by a big heavy infrastructure like what EWS has versus a Joe Blow company you know trying to implement them themselves, how do you see that challenge. I mean I don't know how the person can compete with having the resourses again the aggregated resources pool that James Hamilton has to bring to barrel this problem. >> So I think we really need to distinguish two things. Which is security versus privacy. So for security there's no question in my mind that Joe Blow, with this little PC has not a chance against our Chinese or Russian friends. Is no question for me that Amazon or Google have way better security teams than anybody else can afford. Because it is really their bread and butter. And if there's a breach on that level then I think it is terrible for them. Just think about the Sony breach on a much smaller scale. That's a very different point from the point of privacy. And from the point about companies deliberately giving the data about you for targeting purposes for instance. And targeting purposes to other companies So I think for the cloud there I trust, I trust Google, I trust Amazon that they are doing hopefully a better job than the Russian hackers. I am more interested in the discussion on the value of data. Over the privacy discussion after all this is the world privacy day and there the question is what do people understand as the trade off they have, what they give in order to get something. People have talked about Google having this impossible irresistible value proposition that for all of those little data you get for instance I took Google Maps to get here, of course Google needs to know where I am to tell me to turn left at the intersection. And of course Google has to know where I want to be going. And Google knows that a bunch of other people are going there today, and you probably figure out that something interesting is happening here. >> Right >> And so those are the interesting questions from me. What do we do with data? What is the value of data? >> But A I don't really think people understand the amount of data that they're giving over and B I really don't think that they understand I mean now maybe they're starting to understand the value because of the value of companies like Google and Facebook that have the data. But do you see a shifting in A the awareness, and I think it's even worse with younger kids who just have lived on their mobile phones since the day they were conscious practically these days. Or will there be a value to >> Or will they even mobile before they were born? Children now come pre-loaded, because the parents take pictures of their children before they are born >> That's true. And you're right and the sonogram et cetera. But and then how has mobile changed this whole conversation because when I was on Facebook on my PC at home very different set of information than when it's connected to all the sensors in my mobile phone when Facebook is on my mobile phone really changes where I am how fast I'm moving, who I'm in proximity to it completely changed the privacy game. >> Yes so geo location and the ACLU here in Northern California chapter has a very good quote on that. "Geo location is really extremely powerful variable" Now what was the question? >> How has this whole privacy thing changed now with the proliferation of the mobile, and the other thing I would say, when you have kids that grew up with mobile and sharing on the young ones don't use Facebook anymore, Instagram, Snap Chat just kind of the notion of sharing and privacy relative to folks that you know wouldn't even give their credit card over the telephone not that long ago, much less type it into a keyboard, um do they really know the value do they really understand the value do they really get the implications when that's the world in which they've lived in. Most of them, you know they're just starting to enter the work force and haven't really felt the implications of that. >> So for me the value of data is how much the data impacts a decision. So for the side of the individual, if I have data about the restaurant, and that makes me decide whether to go there or to not go there. That is having an impact on my decision thus the data is valuable. For a company a decision whether to show me this offer or that offer that is how data is valued from the company. So that kind of should be quantified The value of the picture of my dog when I was a child. That is you know so valuable, I'm not talking about this. I'm very sort of rational here in terms of value of data as the impact is has on decisions. >> Do you see companies giving back more of that value to the providers of that data? Instead of you know just simple access to useful applications but obviously the value exceeds the value of the application they're giving you. >> So you use the term giving back and before you talked about kids giving up data. So I don't think that it is quite the right metaphor. So I know that metaphor come from the physical world. That sometimes has been data is in your oil and that indeed is a good metaphor when it comes to it needs to be refined to have value. But there are other elements where data is very different from oil and that is that I don't really give up data when I share and the company doesn't really give something back to me but it is much interesting exchange like a refinery that I put things in and now I get something not necessarily back I typically get something which is very different from what I gave because it has been combined with the data of a billion other people. And that is where the value lies, that my data gets combined with other peoples data in some cases it's impossible to actually take it out it's like a drop of ink, a drop in the ocean and it spreads out and you cannot say, oh I want my ink back. No, it's too late for that. But it's now spread out and that is a metaphor I think I have for data. So people say, you know I want to be in control of my data. I often think they don't have deep enough thought of what they mean by that. I want to change the conversation of people saying You what can I get by giving you the data? How can you help me make better decisions? How can I be empowered by the data which you are grabbing or which you are listening to that I produce. That is a conversation which I want to ask here at the Privacy Day. >> And that's happening with like Google Maps obviously you're exchanging the information, you're walking down the street, you're headed here they're telling you that there's a Starbucks on the corner if you want to pick up a coffee on the way. So that is already kind of happening right and that's why obviously Google has been so successful. Because they're giving you enough and you're giving them more and you get in this kind of virtuous cycle in terms of the information flow but clearly they're getting a lot more value than you are in terms of their you know based on their market capitalization you know, it's a very valuable thing in the aggregation. So it's almost like a one plus one makes three >> Yes. >> On their side. >> Yes, but it's a one trick pony ultimately. All of the money we make is rats. >> Right, right that's true. But in-- >> It's a good one to point out-- >> But then it begs the question too when we no longer ask but are just delivered that information. >> Yes, I have a friend Gam Dias and he runs a company called First Retail, and he makes the point that there will be no search anymore in a couple of years from now. What are you talking about? I search every day, but is it. Yes. But You know, you will get the things before you even think about it and with Google now a few years ago when other things, I think he is quite right. >> We're starting to see that, right where the cards come to you with a guess as to-- >> And it's not so complicated If let's see you go to the symphony you know, my phone knows that I'm at the symphony even if I turn it off, it know where I turned it off. And it knows when the symphony ends because there are like a thousand other people, so why not get Ubers, Lyfts closer there and amaze people by wow, your car is there already. You know that is always a joke what we have in Germany. In Germany we have a joke that says, Hey go for vacation in Poland your car is there already. But maybe I shouldn't tell those jokes. >> Let's talk about your book. So you've got a new book that came out >> Yeah >> Just recently released, it's called Data for the People. What's in it what should people expect, what motivated you to write the book? >> Well, I'm actually excited yesterday I got my first free copies not from the publisher and not from Amazon. Because they are going by the embargo by which is out next week. But Barnes and Noble-- >> They broke the embargo-- Barnes and Noble. Breaking news >> But three years of work and basically it is about trying to get people to embrace the data they create and to be empowered by the data they create. Lots of stories from companies I've worked with Lots of stories also from China, I have a house in China I spend a month or two months there every year for the last 15 years and the Chinese ecosystem is quite different from the US ecosystem and you of course know that the EU regulations are quite different from the US regulations. So, I wrote on what I think is interesting and I'm looking forward to actually rereading it because they told me I should reread it before I talk about it. >> Because when did you submit it? You probably submitted it-- >> Half a year >> Half a year ago, so yeah. Yeah. So it's available at Barnes and Noble and now Amazon >> It is available. I mean if you order it now, you'll get it by Monday. >> Alright, well Dr. Andreas Weigin thanks for taking a few minutes, we could go forever and ever but I think we've got to let you go back to the rest of the sessions. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, pleasure Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE see you next time.