>>Welcome back to the aria in Las Vegas, Dave Valante with Dave Nicholson, Falcon 22, the Cube's continuous coverage. Sean Henry is here. He's the president of the services division and he's the chief security officer at CrowdStrike. And he's joined by Kevin mania, CEO of Mandy. Now part of Google Jens. Welcome to the cube. Thank you. Congrats on closing the Google deal. Thank you. That's great. New chapter, >>New >>Chapter coming fresh off the keynote, you and George. I really en enjoyed that. Let's start there. One of the things you talked about was the changes you've been, you've been in this business for a while. I think you were talking about, you know, doing some of these early stuff in the nineties. Wow. Things have changed a lot the queen, right? Right. You used to put the perimeter around the queen. Yeah. Build the Mo the Queen's left or castle new ballgame. But you were talking about the board level knowledge of security in the organization. Talk about that change. That's occurred in the last >>Decade. You know, boards are all about governance, right? Making sure everybody's doing the right things. And they've kind of had a haul pass on cybersecurity for a long time. Like we expect them to be great at financial diligence, they understand the financials of an organization. You're gonna see a maturity, I think in cybersecurity where I think board members all know, Hey, there's risk out there. And we're on our own to kind of defend ourselves from it, but they don't know how to quantify it. And they don't know how to express it. So bottom line boards are interested in cyber and we just have to mature as an industry to give them the tools they need to measure it appropriately. >>Sean, one of the things I wanted to ask you. So Steven Schmidt, I noticed changed his title from CISOs chief inf information security officer, the chief security officer. Your title is chief security officer. Is that a nuance that has meaning to you or is it just less acronym? >>It depends on the organization that you're in, in our organization, the chief security officer owns all risks. So I have a CISO that comes underneath me. Yep. And I've got a security folks that are handling our facilities, our personnel, those sorts of things, all, all of our offices around the globe. So it's all things security. One of the things that we've found and Kevin and I were actually talking about this earlier is this intersection between the physical world and the virtual world. And if you've got adversaries that want gain access to your organization, they might do it remotely by trying to hack into your network. But they also might try to get one of your employees to take an action on their behalf, or they might try to get somebody hired into your company to take some nefarious acts. So from a security perspective, it's about building an envelope around all things valuable and then working it in a collaborative way. So there's a lot of interface, a lot of interaction and a lot of value in putting those things together. And, >>And you're also president of the services division. Is that a P and L role or >>It is, we have a it's P P O P and L. And we have an entire organization that's doing incident response and it's a lot of the work that we're doing with, with Kevin's folks now. So I've got both of those hats today. >>Okay. So self-funded so in a way, okay. Where are companies most at risk today? >>Huh? You wanna go on that one first? Sean, you talk fast than me. So it's bigger bang for the buck. If >>You >>Talk, you know, when I, when I think about, about companies in terms of, of their risk, it's a lot of it has to do with the expansion of the network. Companies are adding new applications, new devices, they're expanding into new areas. There are new technologies that are being developed every day and that are being embraced every day. And all of those technologies, all of those applications, all of that hardware is susceptible to attack. Adversaries are looking for the vulnerabilities they can exploit. And I think just kind of that sprawl is something that is, is disconcerting to me from a security perspective, we need to know where our assets are, where the vulnerabilities lie, how do we plug the holes? And having that visibility is really critical to ensure that you're you're in, involved in mitigating that, that new architecture, >>Anything you >>Did. Yeah. I would like when I, so I can just tell you what I'm hearing from CISOs out there. They're worried about identity, the lateral movement. That's been kind of part of every impactful breach. So in identity's kind of top three of mind, I would say zero trust, whatever that means. And we all have our own definitions of migration to zero trust and supply chain risk. You know, whether they're the supplier, they wanna make sure they can prove to their customers, they have great security practices. Or if they're a consumer of a supply chain, you need to understand who's in their supply chain. What are their dependencies? How secure are they? Those are just three topics that come up all the time. >>As we extend, you know, talking about XDR the X being extend. Do you see physical security as something that's being extended into? Or is it, or is it already kind of readily accepted that physical security goes hand in hand with information security? >>I, I don't think a lot of people think that way there certainly are some and Dave mentions Amazon and Steve Schmidt as a CSO, right? There's a CSO that works for him as well. CJ's clear integration. There's an intelligence component to that. And I think that there are certain organizations that are starting to recognize and understand that when we say there's no real perimeter, it, it expands the network expands into the physical space. And if you're not protecting that, you know, if you don't protect the, the server room and somebody can actually walk in the doors unlocked, you've got a vulnerability that might be exploited. So I think to, to recognize the value of that integration from a security perspective, to be holistic and for organizations to adopt a security first philosophy that all the employees recognize they're, they're the, the first line of defense. Oftentimes not just from a fish, but by somebody catching up with them and handing 'em a thumb drive, Hey, can you take a look at this document? For me, that's a potential vulnerability as well. So those things need to be integrated. >>I thought the most interesting part of the keynote this morning is when George asked you about election security and you immediately went to the election infrastructure. I was like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But then I was so happy to hear you. You went to the disinformation, I learned something there about your monitoring, the network effects. Sure. And, and actually there's a career stream around that. Right. The reason I had so years ago I interviewed was like, this was 2016, Robert Gates. Okay. Former defense. And I, I said, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber can't we go on the offense. He said, wait a minute, we have the most to lose. Right. But, but you gave an example where you can identify the bots. Like let's say there's disinformation out there. You could actually use bots in a positive way to disseminate the, the truth in theory. Good. Is, is that something that's actually happening >>Out there? Well, I think we're all still learning. You know, you can have deep fakes, both audible files or visual files, right. And images. And there's no question. The next generation, you do have to professionalize the news that you consume. And we're probably gonna have to professionalize the other side critical thinking because we are a marketplace of ideas in an open society. And it's hard to tell where's the line between someone's opinion and intentional deception, you know, and sometimes it could be the source, a foreign threat, trying to influence the hearts and minds of citizens, but there's gonna be an internal threat or domestic threat as well to people that have certain ideas and concepts that they're zealots about. >>Is it enough to, is it enough to simply expose where the information is coming from? Because, you know, look, I, I could make the case that the red Sox, right. Or a horrible baseball team, and you should never go to Fenway >>And your Yankees Jersey. >>Right. Right. So is that disinformation, is that misinformation? He'd say yes. Someone else would say no, but it would be good to know that a thousand bots from some troll farm, right. Are behind us. >>There's, it's helpful to know if something can be tied to identity or is totally anonymous. Start just there. Yeah. Yeah. You can still protect the identity over time. I think all of us, if you're gonna trust the source, you actually know the source. Right. So I do believe, and, and by the way, much longer conversation about anonymity versus privacy and then trust, right. And all three, you could spend this whole interview on, but we have to have a trustworthy internet as well. And that's not just in the tech and the security of it, but over time it could very well be how we're being manipulated as citizens and people. >>When you guys talk to customers and, and peers, when somebody gets breached, what's the number one thing that you hear that they wished they'd done that they didn't. >>I think we talked about this earlier, and I think identity is something that we're talking about here. How are you, how are you protecting your assets? How do you know who's authorized to have access? How do you contain the, the access that they have? And the, the area we see with, with these malware free attacks, where adversaries are using the existing capabilities, the operating system to move laterally through the network. I mean, Kevin's folks, my folks, when we respond to an incident, it's about looking at that lateral movement to try and get a full understanding of where the adversary's been, where they're going, what they're doing, and to try to, to find a root cause analysis. And it really is a, a critical part. >>So part of the reason I was asking you about, was it a P and L cuz you, you wear two hats, right? You've got revenue generation on one side and then you've got you protect, you know, the company and you've got peer relationships. So the reason I bring this up is I felt like when stucks net occurred, there was a lot of lip service around, Hey, we, as an industry are gonna work together. And then what you saw was a lot of attempts to monetize, you know, private data, sell private reports and things of that nature you were referencing today, Kevin, that you think the industry's doing a much better job of, of collaboration. Is it, can you talk about that and maybe give some examples? >>Absolutely. I mean, you know, I lived through it as a victim of a breach couple years ago. If you see something new and novel, I, I just can't imagine you getting away with keeping it a secret. I mean, I would even go, what are you doing? Harboring that if you have it, that doesn't mean you tell the whole world, you don't come on your show and say, Hey, we got something new novel, everybody panic, you start contacting the people that are most germane to fixing the problem before you tell the world. So if I see something that's new in novel, certainly con Sean and the team at CrowdStrike saying, Hey, there's because they protect so many endpoints and they defend nations and you gotta get to Microsoft. You have to talk to pan. You have to get to the companies that have a large capability to do shields up. And I think you do that immediately. You can't sit on new and novel. You get to the vendor where the vulnerability is, all these things have to happen at a great rate to speak. >>So you guys probably won't comment, but I'm betting dollars to donuts. This Uber lapses hack you guys knew about. >>I turned to you. >>No comment. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that the, that wasn't novel. My point being, let me, let me ask it in a more generic fashion that you can maybe comment you you're. I think you're my, my inference is we're com the industry is compressing the time between a zero day and a fix. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like dramatically. >>Yes. Oh, awareness of it and AIX. Yes. Yeah. >>Okay. Yeah. And a lot of the hacks that we see as lay people in the media you've known about for quite some time, is that fair or no, not necessarily. >>It's, you know, it's harder to handle an intrusion quietly and discreetly these days, especially with what you're up against and, and most CEOs, by the way, their intent isn't, let's handle it quietly and discreetly it's what do we do about it? And what's the right way to handle it. And they wanna inform their customers and they wanna inform people that might be impacted. I wouldn't say we know it all that far ahead of time >>And, and depends. And, and I, I think companies don't know it. Yeah. Companies don't know they've been breached for weeks or months or years in some cases. Right. Which talks about a couple things, first of all, some of the sophistication of the adversaries, but it also talks about the inability of companies to often detect this type of activity when we're brought in. It's typically very quickly after the company finds out because they recognize they've gotta take action. They've got liability, they've got brand protection. There, whole sorts of, of things they need to take care of. And we're brought in it may or may not be, become public, but >>CrowdStrike was founded on the premise that the unstoppable breach is a myth. Now that's a, that's a bold sort of vision. We're not there yet, obviously. And a and a, and a, a CSO can't, you know, accept that. Right. You've gotta always be vigilant, but is that something that is, that we're gonna actually see manifest, you know, in any, any time in the near term? I mean, thinking about the Falcon platform, you guys are users of that. I don't know if that is part of the answer, but part of it's technology, but without the cultural aspects, the people side of things, you're never gonna get there. >>I can tell you, I started Maning in 2004 at the premise security breaches are inevitable, far less marketable. Yeah. You know, stop breaches. >>So >>Yeah. I, I think you have to learn how to manage this, right? It's like healthcare, you're not gonna stop every disease, but there's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate the consequences of those things. The same thing with network security, there's a lot of actions that organizations can take to help protect them in a way that allows them to live and, and operate in a, in a, a strong position. If companies are lackadaisical that irresponsible, they don't care. Those are companies that are gonna suffer. But I think you can manage this if you're using the right technology, the right people, you've got the right philosophy security first >>In, in the culture. >>Well, I can tell you very quickly, three reasons why people think, why is there an intrusion? It should just go away. Well, wherever money goes, crime follows. We still have crime. So you're still gonna have intrusions, whether it has to be someone on the inside or faulty software and people being paid the right faulty software, you're gonna have war. That's gonna create war in the cyber domain. So information warriors are gonna try to have intrusions to get to command and control. So wherever you have command and control, you'll have a war fighter. And then wherever you have information, you have ESP Espino. So you're gonna have people trying to break in at all times. >>And, and to tie that up because everything Kevin said is absolutely right. And what he just said at the very end was people, there are human beings that are on the other side of every single attack. And think about this until you physically get physically get to the people that are doing it and stop them. Yes, this will go on forever because you can block them, but they're gonna move and you can block them again. They're gonna move their objectives. Don't change because the information you have, whether it's financial information, intellectual property, strategic military information, that's still there. They will always come at it, which is where that physical component comes in. If you're able to block well enough and they can't get you remotely, they might send somebody in. Well, >>I, in the keynote, I, I'm not kidding. I'm looking around the room and I'm thinking there's at least one person here that is here primarily to gather intelligence, to help them defeat. What's being talked about here. >>Well, you said it's, >>It's kind >>Of creepy. You said the adversary is, is very well equipped and motivated. Why do you Rob banks? Well, that's where the money is, but it's more than that. Now with state sponsored terrorism and, you know, exfiltration of state secrets, I mean, there's, it's high stake's games. You got, this >>Has become a tool of nation states in terms from a political perspective, from a military perspective, if you look at what happened with Ukraine and Russia, all the work that was done in advanced by the Russians to soften up the Ukrainians, not just collection of intelligence, not just denial of services, but then disruptive attacks to change the entire complexity of the battlefield. This, this is a, an area that's never going away. It's becoming ingrained in our lives. And it's gonna be utilized for nefarious acts for many, many decades to come. >>I mean, you're right, Sean, we're seeing the future of war right before us is, is there's. There is going to be, there is a cyber component now in war, >>I think it signals the cyber component signals the silent intention of nations period, the silent projection of power probably before you see kinetics. >>And this is where gates says we have a lot more to lose as a country. So it's hard for us to go on the offense. We have to be very careful about our offensive capabilities because >>Of one of the things that, that we do need to, to do though, is we need to define what the red lines are to adversaries. Because when you talk about human beings, you've gotta put a deterrent in place so that if the adversaries know that if you cross this line, this is what the response is going to be. It's the way things were done during nuclear proliferation, right? Right. During the cold war, here's what the actions are gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna be mutual destruction and you can't do it. And we didn't have a nuclear war. We're at a point now where adversaries are pushing the envelope constantly, where they're turning off the lights in certain countries where they're taking actions that are, are quite detrimental to the host governments and those red lines have to be very clear, very clearly defined and acted upon if they're >>Crossed as security experts. Can you always tie that signature back to say a particular country or a particular group? >>Absolutely. 100% every >>Time I know. Yeah. No, it it's. It's a great question. You, you need to get attribution right. To get to deterrence, right. And without attribution, where do you proportionate respond to whatever act you're responding to? So attribution's critical. Both our companies work hard at doing it and it, and that's why I think you're not gonna see too many false flag operations in cyberspace, but when you do and they're well crafted or one nation masquerades is another, it, it, it's one of the last rules of the playground I haven't seen broken yet. And that that'll be an unfortunate day. >>Yeah. Because that mutually assure destruction, a death spot like Putin can say, well, it wasn't wasn't me. Right. So, and ironically, >>It's human intelligence, right. That ultimately is gonna be the only way to uncover >>That human intelligence is a big component. >>For sure. Right. And, and David, like when you go back to, you were referring to Robert Gates, it's the asymmetry of cyberspace, right? One person in one nation. That's not a control by asset could still do an act. And it, it just adds to the complexity of, we have attribution it's from that nation, but was it in order? Was it done on behalf of that nation? Very complicated. >>So this is an industry of superheroes. Thank you guys for all you do and appreciate you coming on the cube. Wow. >>I love your Cape. >>Thank all right. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave ante be right back from Falcon 22 from the area you watching the cue.

>>Hello. Welcome back to our super cloud 22 event. I'm John F host the cue with my co-host Dave ante. Extracting the signal from noise. We're proud to have two amazing cube alumnis here. We got Sanja Putin. Who's now the CEO of cohesive the emo Aaron who's the CTO. Co-founder also former CEO Cub alumni. The father of hyper-converged welcome back to the cube I endorsed the >>Cloud. Absolutely. Is the father. Great >>To see you guys. Thank thanks for coming on and perfect timing. The new job taking over that. The helm Mo it at cohesive big news, but part of super cloud, we wanna dig into it. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you for having >>Us here. So first of all, we'll get into super before we get into the Supercloud. I want to just get the thoughts on the move Sanjay. We've been following your career since 2010. You've been a cube alumni from that point, we followed that your career. Why cohesive? Why now? >>Yeah, John David, thank you first and all for having us here, and it's great to be at your event. You know, when I left VMware last year, I took some time off just really primarily. I hadn't had a sabbatical in probably 18 years. I joined two boards, Phillips and sneak, and then, you know, started just invest and help entrepreneurs. Most of them were, you know, Indian Americans like me who were had great tech, were looking for the kind of go to market connections. And it was just a wonderful year to just de to unwind a bit. And along the, the way came CEO calls. And I'd asked myself, the question is the tech the best in the industry? Could you see value creation that was signi significant and you know, three, four months ago, Mohit and Carl Eschenbach and a few of the board members of cohesive called me and walk me through Mo's decision, which he'll talk about in a second. And we spent the last few months getting to know him, and he's everything you describe. He's not just the father of hyperconverge. And he wrote the Google file system, wicked smart, built a tech platform better than that second time. But we had to really kind of walk through the chemistry between us, which we did in long walks in, in, you know, discrete places so that people wouldn't find us in a Starbucks and start gossiping. So >>Why Sanjay? There you go. >>Actually, I should say it's a combination of two different decisions. The first one was to, for me to take a different role and I run the company as a CEO for, for nine years. And, you know, as a, as a technologist, I always like, you know, going deep into technology at the same time, the CEO duties require a lot of breadth, right? You're talking to customers, you're talking to partners, you're doing so much. And with the way we've been growing the with, you know, we've been fortunate, it was becoming hard to balance both. It's really also not fair to the company. Yeah. So I opted to do the depth job, you know, be the visionary, be the technologist. And that was the first decision to bring a CEO, a great CEO from outside. >>And I saw your video on the site. You said it was your decision. Yes. Go ahead. I have to ask you, cuz this is a real big transition for founders and you know, I have founder artists cuz everyone, you know, calls me that. But being the founder of a company, it's always hard to let go. I mean nine years as CEO, it's not like you had a, you had a great run. So this was it timing for you? Was it, was it a structural shift, like at super cloud, we're talking about a major shift that's happening right now in the industry. Was it a balance issue? Was it more if you wanted to get back in and in the tech >>Look, I, I also wanna answer, you know, why Sanja, but, but I'll address your question first. I always put the company first what's right for the company. Is it for me to start get stuck the co seat and try to juggle this depth and Brad simultaneously. I mean, I can stroke my ego a little bit there, but it's not good for the company. What's best for the company. You know, I'm a technologist. How about I oversee the technology part in partnership with so many great people I have in the company and I bring someone kick ass to be the CEO. And so then that was the second decision. Why Sanja when Sanjay, you know, is a very well known figure. He's managed billions of dollars of business in VMware. You know, been there, done that has, you know, some of the biggest, you know, people in the industry on his speed dial, you know, we were really fortunate to have someone like that, come in and accept the role of the CEO of cohesive. I think we can take the company to new Heights and I'm looking forward to my partnership with, with Sanja on this. >>It it's we, we called it the splash brothers and >>The, >>In the vernacular. It doesn't matter who gets the ball, whether it's step clay, we shoot. And I think if you look at some of the great partnerships, whether it was gates bomber, there, plenty of history of this, where a founder and a someone who was, it has to be complimentary skills. If I was a technologist myself and wanted to code we'd clash. Yeah. But I think this was really a match me in heaven because he, he can, I want him to keep innovating and building the best platform for today in the future. And our customers tell one customer told me, this is the best tech they've seen since VMware, 20 years ago, AWS, 10 years ago. And most recently this was a global 100 big customers. So I feel like this combination, now we have to show that it works. It's, you know, it's been three, four months. My getting to know him, you know, I'm day eight on the job, but I'm loving it. >>Well, it's a sluman model too. It's more modern example. You saw, he did it with Fred Ludy at service now. Yes. And, and of course at, at snowflake, yeah. And his book, you read his book. I dunno if you've read his book, amp it up, but app it up. And he says, I always you'll love this. Give great deference to the founder. Always show great respect. Right. And for good reason. So >>In fact, I mean you could talk to him, you actually met to >>Frank. I actually, you know, a month or so back, I actually had dinner with him in his ranch in Moana. And I posed the question. There was a number of CEOs that went there and I posed him the question. So Frank, you know, many of us, we grow being deaf guys, you know? And eventually when we take on the home of our CEO, we have to do breadth. How do you do it? And he's like, well, let me tell you, I was never a death guy. I'm a breath guy. >>I'm like, >>That's my answer. Yeah. >>So, so I >>Want the short story. So the day I got the job, I, I got a text from Frank and I said, what's your advice the first time CEO, three words, amp it up, >>Amp it up. Right? Yeah. >>And so you're always on brand, man. >>So you're an amazing operator. You've proven that time and time again at SAP, VMware, et cetera, you feel like now you, you, you wanna do both of those skills. You got the board and you got the operations cuz you look, you know, look at sloop when he's got Scarelli wherever he goes, he brings Scarelli with him as sort of the operator. How, how do you, how are you thinking >>About that? I mean it's early days, but yeah. Yeah. Small. I mean I've, you know, when I was, you know, it was 35,000 people at VMware, 80, 90,000 people at SAP, a really good run. The SAP run was 10 to 20 billion innovative products, especially in analytics and VMware six to 12 end user computing cloud. So I learned a lot. I think the company, you know, being about 2000 employees plus not to mayor tomorrow, but over the course next year I can meet everybody. Right? So first off the executive team, 10 of us, we're, we're building more and more cohesiveness if I could use that word between us, which is great, the next, you know, layers of VPs and every manager, I think that's possible. So I I'm a people person and a customer person. So I think when you take that sort of extroverted mindset, we'll bring energy to the workforce to, to retain the best and then recruit the best. >>And you know, even just the week we, we were announced that this announcement happened. Our website traffic went through the roof, the highest it's ever been, lots of resumes coming in. So, and then lots of customer engagement. So I think we'll take this, but I, I feel very good about the possibilities, because see, for me, I didn't wanna walk into the company to a company where the technology risk was high. Okay. I feel like that I can go to bed at night and the technology risk is low. This guy's gonna run a machine at the current and the future. And I'm hearing that from customers. Now, what I gotta do is get the, the amp it up part on the go to market. I know a little thing or too about >>That. You've got that down. I think the partnership is really key here. And again, nine use the CEO and then Sanja points to our super cloud trend that we've been looking at, which is there's another wave happening. There's a structural change in real time happening now, cloud one was done. We saw that transition, AWS cloud native now cloud native with an kind of operating system kind of vibe going on with on-premise hybrid edge. People say multi-cloud, but we're looking at this as an opportunity for companies like cohesive to go to the next level. So I gotta ask you guys, what do you see as structural change right now in the industry? That's disruptive. People are using cloud and scale and data to refactor their business models, change modern cases with cloud native. How are you guys looking at this next structural change that's happening right now? Yeah, >>I'll take that. So, so I'll start by saying that. Number one, data is the new oil and number two data is exploding, right? Every year data just grows like crazy managing data is becoming harder and harder. You mentioned some of those, right? There's so many cloud options available. Cloud one different vendors have different clouds. There is still on-prem there's edge infrastructure. And the number one problem that happens is our data is getting fragmented all over the place and managing so many fragments of data is getting harder and harder even within a cloud or within on-prem or within edge data is fragmented. Right? Number two, I think the hackers out there have realized that, you know, to make money, it's no longer necessary to Rob banks. They can actually see steal the data. So ransomware attacks on the rise it's become a boardroom level discussion. They say there's a ransomware attack happening every 11 seconds or so. Right? So protecting your data has become very important security data. Security has become very important. Compliance is important, right? So people are looking for data management solutions, the next gen data management platform that can really provide all this stuff. And that's what cohesive is about. >>What's the difference between data management and backup. Explain that >>Backup is just an entry point. That's one use case. I wanna draw an analogy. Let's draw an analogy to my former company, Google right? Google started by doing Google search, but is Google really just a search engine. They've built a platform that can do multiple things. You know, they might have started with search, but then they went down to roll out Google maps and Gmail and YouTube and so many other things on that platform. So similarly backups might be just the first use case, but it's really about that platform on which you can do more with the data that's next gen data management. >>But, but you am, I correct. You don't consider yourself a security company. One of your competitors is actually pivoting and in positioning themselves as a security company, I've always felt like data management, backup and recovery data protection is an adjacency to security, but those two worlds are coming together. How do you see >>It? Yeah. The way I see it is that security is part of data management. You start maybe by backing with data, but then you secure it and then you do more with that data. If you're only doing security, then you're just securing the data. You, you gotta do more with the data. So data management is much bigger. So >>It's a security is a subset of data. I mean, there you go. Big TA Sanjay. >>Well, I mean I've, and I, I, I I'd agree. And I actually, we don't get into that debate. You know, I've told the company, listen, we'll figure that out. Cuz who cares about the positioning at the bottom? My email, I say we are data management and data security company. Okay. Now what's the best word that describes three nouns, which I think we're gonna do management security and analytics. Okay. He showed me a beautiful diagram, went to his home in the course of one of these, you know, discrete conversations. And this was, I mean, he's done this before. Many, if you watch on YouTube, he showed me a picture of an ice big iceberg. And he said, listen, you know, if you look at companies like snowflake and data bricks, they're doing the management security and mostly analytics of data. That's the top of the iceberg, the stuff you see. >>But a lot of the stuff that's get backed archive is the bottom of the iceberg that you don't see. And you try to, if you try to ask a question on age data, the it guy will say, get a ticket. I'll come back with three days. I'll UNIV the data rehydrate and then you'll put it into a database. And you can think now imagine that you could do live searches analytics on, on age data that's analytics. So I think the management, the security, the analytics of, you know, if you wanna call it secondary data or backed up data or data, that's not hot and live warm, colder is a huge opportunity. Now, what do you wanna call one phrase that describes all of it. Do you call that superpower management security? Okay, whatever you wanna call it. I view it as saying, listen, let's build a platform. >>Some people call Google, a search company. People, some people call Google and information company and we just have to go and pursue every CIO and every CSO that has a management and a security and do course analytics problem. And that's what we're doing. And when I talk to the, you know, I didn't talk to all the 3000 customers, but the biggest customers and I was doing diligence. They're like this thing has got enormous potential. Okay. And we just have to now go focus, get every fortune 1000 company to pick us because this problem, even the first use case you talk back up is a little bit like, you know, razor blades and soap you've needed. You needed it 30 years ago and you'll need it for 30 years. It's just that the tools that were built in the last generation that were companies formed in 1990s, one of them I worked for years ago are aids are not built for the cloud. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity where many of those, those, those nos management security analytics will become part of what we do. And we'll come up with the right phrase for what the companies and do course >>Sanjay. So ma and Sanja. So given that given that's this Google transition, I like that example search was a data problem. They got sequenced to a broader market opportunity. What super cloud we trying to tease out is what does that change over from a data standpoint, cuz now the operating environments change has become more complex and the enterprises are savvy. Developers are savvy. Now they want, they want SAS solutions. They want freemium and expanding. They're gonna drive the operations agenda with DevOps. So what is the complexity that needs to be abstracted away? How do you see that moment? Because this is what people are talking about. They're saying security's built in, driven by developers. Developers are driving operations behavior. So what is the shift? Where do you guys see this new? Yeah. Expansive for cohesive. How do you fit into super cloud? >>So let me build up from that entry point. Maybe back up to what you're saying is the super cloud, right? Let me draw that journey. So let's say the legacy players are just doing backups. How, how sad is it that you have one silo sitting there just for peace of mind as an insurance policy and you do nothing with the data. If you have to do something with the data, you have to build another silo, you have to build another copy. You have to manage it separately. Right. So clearly that's a little bit brain damaged. Right. So, okay. So now you take a little bit of, you know, newer vendors who may take that backup platform and do a little bit more with that. Maybe they provide security, but your problem still remains. How do you do more with the data? How do you do some analytics? >>Like he's saying, right. How do you test development on that? How do you migrate the data to the cloud? How do you manage it? The data at scale? How do you do you provide a unified experience across, across multiple cloud, which you're calling the super cloud. That's where cohesive goes. So what we do, we provide a platform, right? We have tentacles in on-prem in each of the clouds. And on top of that, it looks like one platform that you manage. We have a single control plane, a UI. If you may, a single pin of glass, if, if you may, that our customers can use to manage all of it. And now it looks, starts looking like one platform. You mentioned Google, do you, when you go to, you know, kind Google search or a URL, do you really care? What happens behind the scenes mean behind the scenes? Google's built a platform that spans the whole world. No, >>But it's interesting. What's behind the scenes. It's a beautiful now. And I would say, listen, one other thing to pull on Dave, on the security part, I saw a lot of vendors this day in this space, white washing a security message on top of backup. Okay. And CSO, see through that, they'll offer warranties and guarantees or whatever, have you of X million dollars with a lot of caveats, which will never paid because it's like escape clause here. We won't pay it. Yeah. And, and what people really want is a scalable solution that works. And you know, we can match every warranty that's easy. And what I heard was this was the most scalable solution at scale. And that's why you have to approach this with a Google type mindset. I love the fact that every time you listen to sun pitch, I would, what, what I like about him, the most common word to use is scale. >>We do things at scale. So I found that him and AUR and some of the early Google people who come into the company had thought about scale. And, and even me it's like day eight. I found even the non-tech pieces of it. The processes that, you know, these guys are built for simple things in some cases were better than some of the things I saw are bigger companies I'd been used to. So we just have to continue, you know, building a scale platform with the enterprise. And then our cloud product is gonna be the simple solution for the masses. And my view of the world is there's 5,000 big companies and 5 million small companies we'll push the 5 million small companies as the cloud. Okay. Amazon's an investor in the company. AWS is a big partner. We'll talk about I'm sure knowing John's interest in that area, but that's a cloud play and that's gonna go to the cloud really fast. You not build you're in the marketplace, you're in the marketplace. I mean, maybe talk about the history of the Amazon relationship investing and all that. >>Yeah, absolutely. So in two years back late 2020, we, you know, in collaboration with AWS who also by the way is an investor now. And in cohesive, we rolled out what we call data management as a service. It's our SaaS service where we run our software in the cloud. And literally all customers have to do is just go there and sign on, right? They don't have to manage any infrastructure and stuff. What's nice is they can then combine that with, you know, software that they might have bought from cohesive. And it still looks like one platform. So what I'm trying to say is that they get a choice of the, of the way they wanna consume our software. They can consume it as a SAS service in the cloud. They can buy our software, manage it themselves, offload it to a partner on premises or what have you. But it still looks like that one platform, what you're calling a Supercloud >>Yeah. And developers are saying, they want the bag of Legos to compose their solutions. That's the Nirvana they want to get there. So that's, it has to look the same. >>Well, what is it? What we're calling a Superlo can we, can we test that for a second? So data management and service could span AWS and on-prem with the identical experience. So I guess I would call that a Supercloud I presume it's not gonna through AWS span multiple clouds, but, but >>Why not? >>Well, well interesting cuz we had this, I mean, so, okay. So we could in the future, it doesn't today. Well, >>David enough kind of pause for a second. Everything that we do there, if we do it will be customer driven. So there might be some customers I'll give you one Walmart that may want to store the data in a non AWS cloud risk cuz they're competitors. Right. So, but the control plane could still be in, in, in the way we built it, but the data might be stored somewhere else. >>What about, what about a on-prem customer? Who says, Hey, I, I like cohesive. I've now got multiple clouds. I want the identical experience across clouds. Yeah. Okay. So, so can you do that today? How do you do that today? Can we talk >>About that? Yeah. So basically think roughly about the split between the data plane and the control plane, the data plane is, you know, our cohesive clusters that could be sitting on premises that could be sitting in multiple data centers or you can run an instance of that cluster in the cloud, whichever cloud you choose. Right. That's what he was referring to as the data plane. So collectively all these clusters from the data plane, right? They stored the data, but it can all be managed using the control plane. So you still get that single image, the single experience across all clouds. And by the way, the, the, the, the cloud vendor does actually benefit because here's a customer. He mentioned a customer that may not wanna go to AWS, but when they get the data plane on a different cloud, whether it's Azure, whether it's the Google cloud, they then get data management services. Maybe they're able to replicate the data over to AWS. So AWS also gains. >>And your deployment model is you instantiate the cohesive stack on each of the regions and clouds, is that correct? And you building essentially, >>It all happens behind the scenes. That's right. You know, just like Google probably has their tentacles all over the world. We will instantiate and then make it all look like one platform. >>I mean, you should really think it's like a human body, right? The control planes, the head. Okay. And that controls everything. The data plane is large because it's a lot of the data, right? It's the rest of the body, that data plane could be wherever you want it to be. Traditionally, the part the old days was tape. Then you got disk. Now you got multiple clouds. So that's the way we think about it. And there on that piece of it will be neutral, right? We should be multi-cloud to the data plane being every single place. Cause it's customer demand. Where do you want your store data? Air gapped. On-prem no problem. We'll work with Dell. Okay. You wanna be in a particular cloud, AWS we'll work then optimized with S3 and glacier. So this is where I think the, the path to a multi-cloud or Supercloud is to be customer driven, but the control plane sits in Amazon. So >>We're blessed to have a number of, you know, technical geniuses in here. So earlier we were speaking to Ben wa deja VI, and what they do is different. They don't instantiate an individual, you know, regions. What they do is of a single global. Is there a, is there an advantage of doing it the way the cohesive does it in terms of simplicity or how do you see that? Is that a future direction for you from a technology standpoint? What are the trade offs there? >>So you want to be where the data is when you said single global, I take it that they run somewhere and the data has to go there. And in this day age, correct >>Said that. He said, you gotta move that in this >>Day and >>Age query that's, you know, across regions, look >>In this day and age with the way the data is growing, the way it is, it's hard to move around the data. It's much easier to move around the competition. And in these instances, what have you, so let the data be where it is and you manage it right there. >>So that's the advantage of instantiating in multiple regions. As you don't have to move the >>Data cost, we have the philosophy we call it. Let's bring the, the computation to the data rather than the data to >>The competition and the same security model, same governance model, same. How do you, how do you federate that? >>So it's all based on policies. You know, this overarching platform controlled by, by the control plane, you just, our customers just put in the policies and then the underlying nuts and bolts just take care >>Of, you know, it's when I first heard and start, I started watching some of his old videos, ACE really like hyperconverged brought to secondary storage. In fact, he said, oh yeah, that's great. You got it. Because I first called this idea, hyperconverged secondary storage, because the idea of him inventing hyperconverge was bringing compute to storage. It had never been done. I mean, you had the kind of big VC stuff, but these guys were the first to bring that hyperconverge at, at Nutanix. So I think this is that same idea of bringing computer storage, but now applied not to the warm data, but to the rest of the data, including a >>Lot of, what about developers? What's, what's your relationship with developers? >>Maybe you talk about the marketplace and everything >>He's yeah. And I'm, I'm curious as to do you have a PAs layer, what we call super PAs layer to create an identical developer experience across your Supercloud. I'm gonna my >>Term. So we want our customers not just to benefit from the software that we write. We also want them to benefit from, you know, software that's written by developers by third party people and so on and so forth. So we also support a marketplace on the platform where you can download apps from third party developers and run them on this platform. There's a, a number of successful apps. There's one, you know, look like I said, our entry point might be backups, but even when backups, we don't do everything. Look, for instance, we don't backup mainframes. There is a, a company we partner with, you know, and their software can run in our marketplace. And it's actually used by many, many of our financial customers. So our customers don't get, just get the benefit of what we build, but they also get the benefit of what third parties build. Another analogy I like to draw. You can tell. And front of analogy is I drew an analogy to hyperscale is like Google. Yeah. The second analogy I like to draw is that to a simple smartphone, right? A smartphone starts off by being a great phone. But beyond that, it's also a GPS player. It's a, it's a, it's a music player. It's a camera, it's a flashlight. And it also has a marketplace from where you can download apps and extend the power of that platform. >>Is that a, can we think of that as a PAs layer or no? Is it really not? You can, okay. You can say, is it purpose built for what you're the problem that you're trying to solve? >>So we, we just built APIs. Yeah. Right. We have an SDK that developers can use. And through those APIs, they get to leverage the underlying services that exist on the platform. And now developers can use that to take advantage of all that stuff. >>And it was, that was a key factor for me too. Cause I, what I, you know, I've studied all the six, seven players that sort of so-called leaders. Nobody had a developer ecosystem, nobody. Right? The old folks were built for the hardware era, but anyones were built for the cloud to it didn't have any partners were building on their platform. So I felt for me listen, and that the example of, you know, model nine rights, the name of the company that does back up. So there's, there's companies that are built on and there's a number of others. So our goal is to have a big tent, David, to everybody in the ecosystem to partner with us, to build on this platform. And, and that may take over time, but that's the way we're build >>It. And you have a metadata layer too, that has the intelligence >>To correct. It's all abstract. That that's right. So it's a combination of data and metadata. We have lots of metadata that keeps track of where the data is. You know, it allows you to index the data you can do quick searches. You can actually, you, we talking about the control plan from that >>Tracing, >>You can inject a search that'll through search throughout your multi-cloud environment, right? The super cloud that you call it. We have all that, all that goodness sounds >>Like a Supercloud John. >>Yeah. I mean, data tracing involved can trace the data lineage. >>You, you can trace the data lineage. So we, you know, provide, you know, compliance and stuff. So you can, >>All right. So my final question to wrap up, we guys, first of all, thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy, San Jose. We, we know what you're gonna do. You're gonna amp it up and, you know, knock all your numbers out. Think you always do. But what I'm interested in, what you're gonna jump into, cuz now you're gonna have the creative license to jump in to the product, the platform there has to be the next level in your mind. Can you share your thoughts on where this goes next? Love the control plane, separate out from the data plane. I think that plays well for super. How >>Much time do you have John? This guy's got, he's got a wealth. Ditis keep >>Going. Mark. Give us the most important thing you're gonna focus on. That kind of brings the super cloud and vision together. >>Yeah. Right away. I'm gonna, perhaps I, I can ion into two things. The first one is I like to call it building the, the machine, the system, right. Just to draw an analogy. Look, I draw an analogy to the us traffic system. People from all walks of life, rich, poor Democrats, Republicans, you know, different states. They all work in the, the traffic system and we drive well, right. It's a system that just works. Whereas in some other countries, you know, the system doesn't work. >>We know, >>We know a few of those. >>It's not about works. It's not about the people. It's the same people who would go from here to those countries and, and not dry. Well, so it's all about the system. So the first thing I, I have my sights on is to really strengthen the system that we have in our research development to make it a machine. I mean, it functions quite well even today, but wanna take it to the next level. Right. So that I wanna get to a point where innovation just happens in the grassroots. And it just, just like >>We automations scale optic brings all, >>Just happens without anyone overseeing it. Anyone there's no single point of bottleneck. I don't have to go take any diving catches or have you, there are people just working, you know, in a decentralized fashion and innovation just happens. Yeah. The second thing I work on of course is, you know, my heart and soul is in, you know, driving the vision, you know, the next level. And that of course is part of it. So those are the two things >>We heard from all day in our super cloud event that there's a need for an, an operating system. Yeah. Whether that's defacto standard or open. Correct. Do you see a consortium around the corner potentially to bring people together so that things could work together? Cuz there really isn't no stand there. Isn't a standards bodies. Now we have great hyperscale growth. We have on-prem we got the super cloud thing happening >>And it's a, it's kind of like what is an operating system? Operating system exposes some APIs that the applications can then use. And if you think about what we've been trying to do with the marketplace, right, we've built a huge platform and that platform is exposed through APIs. That third party developers can use. Right? And even we, when we, you know, built more and more services on top, you know, we rolled our D as we rolled out, backup as a service and a ready for thing security as a service governance, as a service, they're using those APIs. So we are building a distributor, putting systems of sorts. >>Well, congratulations on a great journey. Sanja. Congratulations on taking the hem. Thank you've got ball control. Now you're gonna be calling the ball cohesive as they say, it's, >>It's a team. It's, you know, I think I like that African phrase. If you want to go fast, you go alone. If you wanna go far, you go together. So I've always operated with the best deal. I'm so fortunate. This is to me like a dream come true because I always thought I wanted to work with a technologist that frees me up to do what I like. I mean, I started as an engineer, but that's not what I am today. Right? Yeah. So I do understand the product and this category I think is right for disruption. So I feel excited, you know, it's changing growing. Yeah. No. And it's a, it requires innovation with a cloud scale mindset and you guys have been great friends through the years. >>We'll be, we'll be watching you. >>I think it's not only disruption. It's creation. Yeah. There's a lot of white space that just hasn't been created yet. >>You're gonna have to, and you know, the proof, isn't the pudding. Yeah. You already have five of the biggest 10 financial institutions in the us and our customers. 25% of the fortune 500 users, us two of the biggest five pharmaceutical companies in the world use us. Probably, you know, some of the biggest companies, you know, the cars you have, you know, out there probably are customers. So it's already happening. >>I know you got an IPO filed confidentially. I know you can't talk numbers, but I can tell by your confidence, you're feeling good right now we are >>Feeling >>Good. Yeah. One day, one week, one month at a time. I mean, you just, you know, I like the, you know, Jeff Bezos, Andy jazzy expression, which is, it's always day one, you know, just because you've had success, even, you know, if, if a and when an IPO O makes sense, you just have to stay humble and hungry because you realize, okay, we've had a lot of success in the fortune 1000, but there's a lot of white space that hasn't picked USS yet. So let's go, yeah, there's lots of midmarket account >>Product opportunities are still, >>You know, I just stay humble and hungry and if you've got the team and then, you know, I'm really gonna be working also in the ecosystem. I think there's a lot of very good partners. So lots of ideas brew through >>The head. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on our super cloud event and, and, and also doubling up on the news of the new appointment and congratulations on the success guys. Coverage super cloud 22, I'm sure. Dave ante, thanks for watching. Stay tuned for more segments after this break.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The pandemic precipitated what is shaping up to be a permanent shift in cybersecurity spending patterns. As a direct result of hybrid work, CSOs have vested heavily in endpoint security, identity access management, cloud security, and further hardening the network beyond the headquarters. We've reported on this extensively in this Breaking Analysis series. Moreover, the need to build security into applications from the start rather than bolting protection on as an afterthought has led to vastly high heightened awareness around DevSecOps. Finally, attacking security as a data problem with automation and AI is fueling new innovations in cyber products and services and startups. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we present our quarterly findings in the security industry, and share the latest ETR survey data on the spending momentum and market movers. Let's start with the most recent news in cybersecurity. Nary a week goes by without more concerning news. The latest focus in the headlines is, of course, Russia's relentless cyber attacks on critical infrastructure in the Ukraine, including banking, government websites, weaponizing information. The hacker group, BlackByte, put a double whammy on the San Francisco 49ers, meaning they exfiltrated data and they encrypted the organization's files as part of its ransomware attack. Then there's the best Super Bowl ad last Sunday, the Coinbase floating QR code. Did you catch that? As people rushed to scan the code and participate in the Coinbase Bitcoin giveaway, it highlights yet another exposure, meaning we're always told not to click on links that we don't trust or we've never seen, but so many people activated this random QR code on their smartphones that it crashed Coinbase's website. What does that tell you? In other news, Securonix raised a billion dollars. They did this raise on top of Lacework's massive $1.3 billion raise last November. Both of these companies are attacking security with data automation and APIs that can engage machine intelligence. Securonix, specifically in the announcement, mentioned the uptake from MSSPs, managed security service providers, something we've talked about in this series. And that's a trend that we see as increasingly gaining traction as customers are just drawing in and drowning in security incidents. Peter McKay's company, Snyk, acquired Fugue, a company focused on making sure security policies are consistent throughout the software development life cycle. It's a really an example of a developer-defined security approach where policy can be checked at the dev, deployment, and production phases to ensure the same policies are in place at all stages, including monitoring at runtime. Fugue, according to Crunchbase, had raised $85 million to date. In some other company news, Cisco was rumored to be acquiring Splunk for not much more than Splunk is worth today. And the talks reportedly broke down. This would be a major move in security by Cisco and underscores the pressure to consolidate. Cisco would get an extremely strong customer base and through efficiencies could improve Splunk's profitability, but it seems like the premium Cisco was willing to pay was not enough to entice board to act. Splunk board, that is. Datadog blew away its earnings, and the stock was up 12%. It's pulled back now, thanks to Putin, but it's one of those companies that is disrupting Splunk. Datadog is less than half the size of Splunk, revenue-wise, but its valuation is more than 2 1/2 times greater. Finally, Elastic, another Splunk disruptor, settled its trademark dispute with AWS, and now AWS will now stop using the name Elasticsearch. All right, let's take a high level look at how cyber companies have performed in the stock market over time. Here's a graph of the Cyber ETF, and you can see the March 1st crosshairs of 2020 signifying the start of the lockdown. The trajectory of cybersecurity stocks is shown by the orange and blue lines, and it surely has steepened post March of 2020. And, of course, it's been down with the market lately, but the run up, as you can see, was substantial and eclipsed the trajectory of the previous cycles over the last couple of years, owing much of the momentum to the spending dynamics that we talked about at our open. Let's now drill into some of the names that we've been following over the last few years and take a look at the firm level. This chart shows some data that we've been tracking since before the pandemic. The top rows show the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ prices, and the bottom rows show specific stocks. The first column is the index price or the market cap of the company just before the pandemic, then the same data one year later. Then the next column shows the peak value during the pandemic, and then the current value. Then it shows in the next column where it is today, in percentage terms, i.e., how far has it pulled back from the peak, then the delta from pre-pandemic, in other words, how much did the issue earn or lose during the pandemic for investors? We then compare the pre-pandemic revenue multiple using a trailing 12-month revenue metric. Sorry, that's what we used. It's easy to get. (laughs) And that's the revenue multiple compared to the August in 2020, when multiples were really high, and where they are today, and then a recent quarterly growth rate guide based on the last earnings report. That's the last column. Okay, so I'm throwing a lot of data at you here, but what does it tell us? First, the S&P and the NAS are well up from pre-pandemic levels, yet they're off 9% and 15%, respectively, from their peaks today. That was earlier on Friday morning. Now let's look at the names more closely. Splunk has been struggling. It definitely had a tailwind from the pandemic as all boats seem to rise, but its execution has been lacking. It's now 30% off from its pre-pandemic levels. (groans) And it's multiple is compressing, and perhaps Cisco thought it could pick up the company for a discount. Now let's talk about Palo Alto Networks. We had reported on some of the challenges the company faced moving into a cloud-friendly model. that was before the pandemic. And we talked about the divergence between Palo Alto's stock price and the valuations relative to Fortinet, and we said at the time, we fully expected Palo Alto to rebound, and that's exactly what happened. It rode the tailwinds of the last two years. It's up over 100% from its pre-COVID levels, and its revenue multiple is expanding, owing to the nice growth rates. Now Fortinet had been doing well coming into the pandemic. In fact, we said it was executing on a cloud strategy better than Palo Alto Networks, hence that divergence in valuations at the time. So it didn't get as much of a boost from the pandemic. Didn't get that momentum at first, but the company's been executing very well. And as you can see, with 155% increase in valuation since just before the pandemic, it's going more than okay for Fortinet. Now, Okta is a name that we've really followed closely, the identity access management specialist that rocketed. But since it's Auth0 acquisition, it's pulled back. Investors are concerned about its guidance and its profitability. And several analyst have downgraded their price targets on Okta. We still really like the company. The Auth0 acquisition gives Okta a developer vector, and we think the company is going hard after market presence and is willing to sacrifice short-term profitability. We actually like that posture. It's very Frank Slupin-like. This company spends a lot of money on R&D and go-to-market. The question is, does Okta have inherent profitability? The company, as they say, spends a ton in some really key areas but it looks to us like it's going to establish a footprint. It's guiding revenue CAGR in the mid-30s over the mid to long-term and near term should beat that benchmark handily. But you can see the red highlights on Okta. And even though Okta is up 59% from its pre-pandemic levels, it's far behind its peers shown in the chart, especially CrowdStrike and Zscaler, the latter being somewhat less impacted by the pullback in stocks recently, of course, due to the fears of inflation and interest rates, and, of course, Russian invasion escalation. But these high flyers, they were bound to pull back. The question is can they maintain their category leadership? And for the most part, we think they can. All right, let's get into some of the ETR data. Here's our favorite XY view with net score, or spending momentum on the Y-axis, and market share or pervasiveness in the data center on the horizontal axis. That red 40% line, that indicates a highly elevated spending level. And the chart inserts to the right, that shows how the data is plotted with net score and shared N in each of the columns by each company. Okay, so this is an eye chart, but there really are three main takeaways. One is that it's a crowded market. And this shows only the companies ETR captures in its survey. We filtered on those that had more than 50 mentions. So there's others in the ETR survey that we're not showing here, and there are many more out there which don't get reported in the spending data in the ETR survey. Secondly, there are a lot of companies above the 40% mark, and plenty with respectable net scores just below. Third, check out SentinelOne, Elastic, Tanium, Datadog, Netskope, and Darktrace. Each has under 100 N's but we're watching these companies closely. They're popping up in the survey, and they're catching our attention, especially SentinelOne, post-IPO. So we wanted to pare this back a bit and filter the data some more. So let's look at companies with more than 100 mentions in the same chart. It gets a little cleaner this picture, but it's still crowded. Auth0 leads everyone in net score. Okta is also up there, so that's very positive sign since they had just acquired Auth0. CrowdStrike SalePoint, Cyberark, CloudFlare, and Zscaler are all right up there as well. And then there's the bigger security companies. Palo Alto Network, very impressive because it's well above the 40% mark, and it has a big presence in the survey, and, of course, in the market. And Microsoft as well. They're such a big whale. They skew the data for everybody else to kind of mess up these charts. And the position of Cisco and Splunk make for an interesting combination. They get both decent net scores, not above the 40% line but they got a good presence in the survey as well. Thinking about the acquisition, Al Shugart was the CEO of of Seagate, and founder. Brilliant Silicon valley icon and engineer. Great business person. I was asking him one time, hey, you thinking about buying this company or that company? And of course, he's not going to tell me who he's thinking about buying or acquiring. He said, let me just tell you this. If you want to know what I'm thinking, ask yourself if it were free, would you take it? And he said the answer's not always obviously yes, because acquisitions can be messy and disruptive. In the case of Cisco and Splunk, I think the answer would be a definitive yes It would expand Cisco's portfolio and make it the leader in security, with an opportunity to bring greater operating leverage to Splunk. Cisco's just got to pay more if it wants that asset. It's got to pay more than the supposed $20 billion offer that it made. It's going to have to get kind of probably north of 23 billion. I pinged my ETR colleague, Erik Bradley, on this, and he generally agreed. He's very close to the security space. He said, Splunk isn't growing the customer base but the customers are sticky. I totally agree. Cisco could roll Splunk into its security suite. Splunk is the leader in that space, security information and event management, and Cisco really is missing that piece of the pie. All right, let's filter the data even more and look at some of the companies that have moved in the survey over the past year and a half. We'll go back here to July 2020. Same two-dimensional chart. And we're isolating here Auth0, Okta, SalePoint CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Cyberark, Fortinet, and Cisco. No Microsoft. That cleans up the chart. Okay, why these firms? Because they've made some major moves to the right, and some even up since last July. And that's what this next chart shows. Here's the data from the January 2022 survey. The arrow start points show the position that we just showed you earlier in July 2020, and all these players have made major moves to the right. How come? Well, it's likely a combination of strong execution, and the fact that security is on the radar of every CEO, CIO, of course, CSOs, business heads, boards of directors. Everyone is thinking about security. The market momentum is there, especially for the leaders. And it's quite tremendous. All right, let's now look at what's become a bit of a tradition with Breaking Analysis, and look at the firms that have earned four stars. Four-star firms are leaders in the ETR survey that demonstrate both a large presence, that's that X-axis that we showed you, and elevated spending momentum. Now in this chart, we filter the N's. Has to be greater than 100. And we isolate on those companies. So more than 100 responses in the survey. On the left-hand side of the chart, we sort by net score or spending velocity. On the right-hand side, we sort by shared N's or presence in the dataset. We show the top 20 for each of the categories. And the red line shows the top 10 cutoffs. Companies that show up in the top 10 for both spending momentum and presence in the data set earn four stars. If they show up in one, and make the top 10 in one, and make the top 20 in the other, they get two stars. And we've added a one-star category as honorable mention for those companies that make the top 20 in both categories. Microsoft, Palo Alto Networks, CrowdStrike, and Okta make the four-star grade. Okta makes it even without Auth0, which has the number one net score in this data set with 115 shared N to boot. So you can add that to Okta. The weighted average would pull Okta's net score to just above Cyberark's into fourth place. And its shared N would bump Okta up to third place on the right-hand side of the chart Cisco, Splunk, Proofpoint, KnowBe4, Zscaler, and Cyberark get two stars. And then you can see the honorable mentions with one star. Now thinking about a Cisco, Splunk combination. You'd get an entity with a net score in the mid-20s. Yeah, not too bad, definitely respectable. But they'd be number one on the right-hand side of this chart, with the largest market presence in the survey by far. Okay, let's wrap. The trends around hybrid work, cloud migration and the attacker escalation that continue to drive cybersecurity momentum and they're going to do so indefinitely. And we've got some bullet points here that you're seeing private companies, (laughs) they're picking up gobs of money, which really speaks to the fact that there's no silver bullet in this market. It's complex, chaotic, and cash-rich. This idea of MSSPs on the rise is going to continue, we think. About half the mid-size and large organization in the US don't have a SecOps, a security operation center, and outsourcing to one that can be tapped on a consumption basis, cloud-like, as a service just makes sense to us. We see the momentum that companies that we've highlighted over the many quarters of Breaking Analysis are forming. They're forming a strong base in the market. They're going for market share and footprint, and they're focusing on growth, at bringing in new talent. They have good balance sheets and strong management teams and we think they'll be leading companies in the future, Zscaler, CrowdStrike, Okta, SentinelOne, Cyberark, SalePoint, over time, joining the ranks of billion dollar cyber firms, when I say billion dollar, billion dollar revenue like Palo Alto Networks, Fortinet, and Splunk, if it doesn't get acquired. These independent firms that really focus on security. Which underscores the pressure and consolidation and M&A in the whole space. It's almost assured with the fragmentation of companies and so many new entrants fighting for escape velocity that this market is going to continue with robust M&A and consolidation. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to my colleague, Stephanie Chan, who helped research this week's topics, and Alex Myerson on the production team. He also manages the Breaking Analysis podcast. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight, who get the word out. Thank you to all. Remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.ai. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. @dvellante is my DM. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week. Be safe, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

hello and welcome to this special cube conversation i'm dave nicholson and this is part of our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 i have two very special guests with me and we are going to talk about the topic of security uh i have sunil potti who is vice president and general manager of google cloud security uh who in a previous life had senior leadership roles at nutanix and citrix along with lior div who is the ceo and co-founder of cyber reason lior was formerly a commander in the much famed unit 8200 uh part of the israeli defense forces uh where he was actually a medal of honor recipient uh very uh honored to have him here this morning sunil and lior welcome to the cube sunil welcome back to the cube yeah great to be here david and and to be in the presence of a medal of honor recipient by the way a good friend of mine leor so be here well good to have both of you here so uh i'm the kind of person who likes my dessert before my uh before my entree so why don't we just get right to it you're the two of you are here to announce something very very significant uh in the field of security uh sunil do you want to start us out what are we here to talk about yeah i mean i think maybe uh you know just to set this context um as as many of you know about a decade ago a nation's sponsored attack you know actually got into google plus a whole bunch of tech companies you know the project aurora was quite uh you know infamous for a certain period of time and actually google realized almost a decade ago that look you know security can't just be a side thing it has to be the primary thing including one of the co-founders becoming for lack of a better word the chief security officer for a while but one of the key takeaways from that whole incident was that look you have to be able to detect everything and trust nothing and and the underpinning for at least one of them led to this whole zero trust architectures that everybody now knows about but the other part which is not as popular at least in industry vernacular but in many ways equally important and some ways more important is the fact that you need to be able to detect everything so that you can actually respond and that led to the formation of you know a project internal to google to actually say that look let's democratize uh storage and make sure that nobody has to pay for capturing security events and that led to the formation of this uh new industry concept called a security data lake in chronicle was born and then as we started evolving that over into the enterprise segment partnering with you know cyber reason on one hand created a one plus one equals three synergy between say the presence around what do you detect from the end point but also generally just so happens that as lior will tell you the cyber reason technology happens to start with endpoint but it's actually the core tech is around detecting events but doing it in a smart way to actually respond to them in much more of a contextual manner but beyond just that you know synergy between uh you know a world-class planet scale you know security data like forming the foundation and integrating you know in a much more cohesive way with uh cyber reasons detection response offering the spirit was actually that this is the first step of a long journey to really hit the reset button in terms of going from reactive mode of security to a proactive mode of security especially in a nation-state-sponsored attack vector so maybe leo you can speak a few minutes on that as well absolutely so um as you said i'm coming from a background of uh nation state hacking so for us at cyberism it's uh not is foreign uh what the chinese are doing uh on a daily basis and the growing uh ransomware cartel that's happening right now in russia um when we looked at it we said then uh cyberism is very famous by our endpoint detection and response capability but when we establish cyber reason we establish the cyberism on a core or almost fundamental idea of finding malicious operation we call it the male idea so basically instead of looking for alerts or instead of looking for just pieces of data we want to find the hackers we want to find the attack we want to be able to tell basically the full story of what's going on uh in order to do that we build the inside cyberism basically from day one the ability to analyze any data in real time in order to stitch it into the story of the male the malicious operation but what we realize very quickly that while our solution can process more than 27 trillion events a week we cannot feed it fast enough just from end point and we are kind of blind when it comes to the rest of the attack surface so we were looking uh to be honest quite a while for the best technology that can feed this engine and to as sunil said the one plus one equal three or four or five to be able to fight against those hackers so in this journey uh we we found basically chronicle and the combination of the scale that chronicle bringing the ability to feed the engine and together basically to be able to find those hackers in real time and real time is very very important and then to response to those type of attack so basically what is uh exciting here we created a solution that is five times faster than any solution that exists right now in the market and most importantly it enables us to reverse the atmospheric advantage and basically to find them and to push them out so we're moving from hey just to tell you a story to actually prevent hackers to being in your environment so leor can you i want to double click on that just just a little bit um can you give give us a kind of a concrete example of this difference between simply receiving alerts and uh and actually um you know taking taking uh uh correlating creating correlations and uh and actually creating actionable proactive intelligence can you give us an example of that working in in the real world yeah absolutely we can start from a simple example of ransomware by the time that i will tell you that there is a ransomware your environment and i will send an alert uh it will be five computers that are encrypted and by the time that you gonna look at the alert it's gonna be five thousand uh basically machines that are encrypted and by the time that you will do something it's going to be already too little too late and this is just a simple example so preventing that thing from happening this is critical and very timely manner in order to prevent the damage of ransomware but if you go aside from ransomware and you look for example of the attack like solarwind basically the purpose of this attack was not to create damage it was espionage the russian wanted to collect data on our government and this is kind of uh the main purpose that they did this attack so the ability to be able to say hey right now there is a penetration this is the step that they are doing and there is five ways to push them out of the environment and actually doing it this is something that today it's done manually and with the power of chronicle and cyberism we can do it automatically and that's the massive difference sunil are there specific industries that should be really interested in this or is this a is this a broad set of folks that should be impacted no you know in some ways uh you know the the the saying these days to learn's point on ransomware is that you know if if a customer or an enterprise has a reasonable top-line revenue you're a target you know you're a target to some extent so in that sense especially given that this has moved from pure espionage or you know whether it be you know government oriented or industrial espionage to a financial fraud then at that point in time it applies to pretty much a wide gamut of industries not just financial services or you know critical infrastructure companies like oil and gas pipeline or whatever it could be like any company that has any sort of ip that they feel drives their top line business is now a target for such attacks so when you talk about the idea of partnership and creating something out of a collaboration what's the meat behind this what what what do you what are you guys doing beyond saying you know hey sunil lior these guys really like each other and they respect what the other is doing what's going on behind the scenes what are you actually implementing here moving forward so every partnership is starting with love so it's good [Laughter] but then it need to translate to to really kind of pure value to our customers and pure value coming from a deep integration when it's come to the product so basically uh what will happen is every piece of data that we can collect at cyber is in uh from endpoint any piece of data that the chronicle can collect from any log that exists in the world so basically this is kind of covering the whole attack surface so first we have access to every piece of information across the full attack surface then the main question is okay once you collect all this data what you're gonna do with it and most of companies or all the companies today they don't have an answer they're saying oh we're gonna issue an alert and we hope that there is a smart person behind the keyboard that can understand what just happened and make a decision and with this partnership and with this integration basically we're not asking and outsourcing the question what to do to the user we're giving them the answer we're telling them hey this is the story of the attack this is all the pieces that's going on right now and in most cases we're gonna say hey and by the way we just stopped it so you can prevent it from the future when will people be able to leverage this capability in an integrated way and and and by the way restate how this is going to market as an integrated solution what is what is the what is what are we going to call this moving forward so basically this is the cyber reason xdr uh powered by chronicle and we are very very um uh happy about it yeah and i think just to add to that i would say look the the meta strategy here and the way it'll manifest is in this offering that comes out in early 2022 um is that if you think about it today you know a classical quote-unquote security pipeline is to detect you know analyze and then respond obviously you know just just doing those three in a good way is hard doing it in real time at scale is even harder so just that itself was where cyber reason and chronicle would add real value where we are able to collect a lot of events react in real time but a couple of things that i think that you know to your original point of why this is probably going to be a little for game changer in the years to come is we're trying to change that from detect analyze respond to detect understand and anticipate so because ultimately that's really how we can change you know the profile from being reactive in a world of ransomware or anything else to being proactive against a nation sponsored or nation's influenced attacks because they're not going to stop right so the only way to do this is to rather than just go back up the hatches is just really you know change change the profile of how you'll actually anticipate what they were probably going to do in 6 months or 12 months and so the the graph technology that powers the heart of you know cyber reason is going to be intricately woven in with the contextual information that chronicle can get so that the intermediate step is not just about analysis but it's about truly understanding the overall strategy that has been employed in the past to predict what could happen in the future so therefore then actions could be taken downstream that you can now say hey most likely this these five buckets have this kind of personal information data there's a reasonable chance that you know if they're exposed to the internet then as you create more such buckets in that project you're going to be susceptible to more ransomware attacks or some other attacks right and that's the the the kind of thinking or the transformation that we're trying to bring out with this joint office so lior uh this this concept of uh of mallops and uh cyber reason itself you weren't just born yesterday you've been you've been uh you have thousands of customers around the globe he does look like he was born i i know i know i know well you you know it used to be that the ideal candidate for ceo of a startup company was someone who dropped out of stanford i think it's getting to the point where it's people who refused admission to stanford so uh the the dawn of the 14 year old ceo it's just it's just around the corner but uh but lior do you get frustrated when you see um you know when you become aware of circumstances that would not have happened had they implemented your technology as it exists today yeah we have a for this year it was a really frustrating year that starting with solarwind if you analyze the code of solarwind and we did it but other did it as well basically the russians were checking if cyberism is installed on the machine and if we were installed on the machine they decided to stop the attack this is something that first it was a great compliment for us from you know our not friend from the other side that decided to stop the attack but on a serious note it's like we were pissed because if people were using this technology we know that they are not going to be attacked when we analyze it we realize that we have three different ways to find the solar wind hackers in a three different way so this is just one example and then the next example in the colonial pipeline hack we were the one that found darkseid as a group that we were hacking we were the first one that released a research on them and we showed how we can prevent the basically what they are doing with our technology so when you see kind of those type of just two examples and we have many of them on a daily basis we just know that we have the technology in order to do that now when we're combining uh the chronicle technology into the the technology that we already have we basically can reverse the adversary advantage this is something that you're not doing in a single day but this is something that really give power to the defenders to the communities of siso that exist kind of across the us um and i believe that if we're going to join forces and lean into this community and and basically push the solution out the ability for us to fight against those cartels specifically the ransomware cartels is going to be massive sunil this time next year when we are in uh google cloud next 2022 um are you guys going to come back on and offer up the we told you so awards because once this is actually out there and readily available the combination of chronicle and cyber reasons technology um it's going to be hard for some csos to have an excuse uh it may be it may be a uncomfortable to know that uh they could have kept the door secure uh but didn't yeah where's that bad business is that bad business to uh hand out awards for doing dumb things i don't know about uh you know a version of darwin awards probably don't make sense but but but generally speaking so i do think uh you know we're all like as citizens in this right because you know we talk about customers i mean you know alphabet and google is a customer in some ways cyber reason is a customer the cube is a customer right so i think i think the robot hitting the road a year from now will be we should we should do this where i don't know if the cube does more than two folks at the same time david but we should i mean i'm sure we'll have enough to have at least a half a dozen in in the room to kind of talk about the solution because i think the the you know as you can imagine this thing didn't materialize i mean it's been being cooked for a while between your team and our team and in fact it was inspired by feedback from some joint customers out in the market and all that good stuff so so a year from now i think the best thing would be not just having customers to talk about the solution but to really talk about that transformation from respond to anticipate and do they feel better on their security posture in a world that they know like and leo should probably spend a few minutes on this is i think we're on the tip of the sphere of this nation-state era and what we've just seen in the last few years is what maybe the nation-states have seen over two decades ago and they're going to run those playbooks on the enterprise for the next decade or so yeah leor talk about that for a minute yeah it's it's really you know just to continue the sunil thought it's it's really about finding the unknown because what's happening on the other side it's like specifically china and russia and lately we saw iran starting to gain uh power um basically their job is to become better and better and to basically innovate and create a new type of attack on a daily basis as technology has evolved so basically there is a very simple equation as we're using more technology and relying more on technology the other side is going to exploit it in order to gain more power espionage and create financial damage but it's important to say that this evolution it's not going to stop this is just the beginning and a lot of the data that was belong just to government against government fight basically linked in the past few years now criminals starting to use it as well so in a sense if you think about it what's happening right now there is basically a cold war that nobody is talking about it between kind of the giant that everybody is hacking everybody and in the crossfire we see all of those enterprises across the world it was not a surprise that um you know after the biden and putin uh meeting suddenly it was a quiet it was no ransomware for six weeks and after something changing the politics suddenly we can see a a groin kind of attack when it's come to ransomware that we know that was directed from russia in order to create pressure on the u.s economy sunil wrap us up what are your f what are what are your final thoughts and uh what's what's the what's the big takeaway here no i think you know i i think the key thing for everyone to know is look i think we are going into an era of state-sponsored uh not espionage as much as threat vectors that affect every business and so in many ways the chiefs the chief information security officer the chief risk officer in many ways the ceo and the board now have to pay attention to this topic much like they paid attention to mobile 15 years ago as a transformation thing or maybe cloud 10 years ago i think cyber has been one of those it's sort of like the wireless error david like it existed in the 90s but didn't really break around until iphone hit or the world of consumerization really took off right and i think we're at the tip of the spear of that cyber really becoming like the era of mobile for 15 years ago and so i think that's the if there's like a big takeaway i think yes there's lots of solutions the good news is great innovations are coming through companies like cyber reason working with you know proven providers like google and so forth and so there's a lot of like support in the ecosystem but i think if there was one takeaway that was that everybody should just be ready internalized we don't have to be paranoid about it but we anticipate that this is going to be a long game that we'll have to play together well with that uh taking off my journalist hat for a moment and putting on my citizen hat uh it's reassuring to know that we have really smart people working on this uh because when we talk about critical infrastructure control systems and things like that being under threat um that's more significant than simply having your social security number stolen in a in a data breach so um with that uh i'd like to thank you sunil leor thank you so much for joining us on this special cube conversation this is dave nicholson signing off from our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 [Music] you

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation on June 23rd the Wall Street Journal reported that Dell is exploring strategic options for its approximately 81% share in VMware both Dell and VMware stocks popped on the news we believe that Dell is floating this trial balloon to really gauge investor customer and partner sentiment and perhaps send a signal to the short sellers that you know what Michael Dell has other arrows in his quiver to unlock in case you want to squeeze me I'm gonna squeeze you back who knows hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki Bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we'll unpack some of the complicated angles in the ongoing VMware saga and assess five scenarios that we think are possible as it pertains to this story as always we're going to bring in some ETR customer data to analyze what's happening with the spending picture let's take a look at what happened and just do a quick recap The Wall Street Journal story said that Dell was considering spinning off VMware or buying the remaining 19 percent of VMware stock that it doesn't own the Journal article cited unnamed sources and said that a spinoff would not likely happen until 7 September 2021 for tax reasons that would mark of course the 5 year anniversary of Dell acquiring EMC and would allow for a tax free transaction always a good thing what's going on here and what options does Dell really have what does it mean for Dell VMware customers and partners we're gonna try to answer those questions today so first of all why would Dell make such a move well I think there's tweet from your own name Marc he's a portfolio manager at one main capital it kind of sums it up he laid out this chart which shows Dells market cap prior to the stock pop you know it's closer to 38 billion today and the value of its VMware owner which is over 50 billion since the stock pop but let me cut to the chase investors value the core assets of Dell which accounts for around 80 billion dollars in revenue when you exclude vmware somewhere south of negative 10 billion dollars why it's because Dell is carrying more than 30 billion dollars of core debt when you exclude Dell Financial Services and it looks like a conglomerate owning the vast majority of VMware shares Michael Dell has something like a 97 percent voting control Cordell is a low margin low growth business and as some have complained that Michael uses VMware as his piggy bank and many investors just won't touch the stock so the stock generally Dell stock has underperformed I've often said even going back to the EMC days that owning the stock of VMware's owner is actually a cheap way to buy vmware but that's assuming that the value somehow gets unlocked at some point so Dell is perhaps signaling that it has some options and other levers to pull as I said you may be trying to give pause to the shorts now let's have a look at some of the ETR spending data and value and evaluate the respective positions of Dell and VMware in the market place this chart here uses the core ETR methodology that we like to talk about all the time for those not familiar we use the concept of net score net score is a simple metric it's like Net Promoter Score sort of the chart shows element the elements of Dells net score so each quarter ETR goes out and ask customers do you plan to adopt the vendor new that's the lime green at 4% spend more relative to last year more meaning more than 6% that's the forest green and you can see that's at 32% flat spend is the grey meaning plus or minus 5% and then decrease spending by 6 percent or greater that's the pink and that's just 11% for Dell or are you replacing the platform to see that that's the bright red there at 7% so net score is a measure of momentum and it's derived by adding the greens and subtracting the Reds and he can see Dell in the last ETR survey which was taken at the height of the pandemic has a net score of 18% now we we colored that soft red it's not terrible but it's not great either now of course this is across Dells entire portfolio and it excludes vmware so what about vmware so this next graphic that we're showing you it applies the exact same methodology to vmware and as you can see vmware has a much higher net score at 35% which of course shouldn't surprise anybody it's a higher growth company but 46% of vmware customers plan to spend more this year relative to last year and only 11% planned to spend less that's pretty strong now what if we combined dell and vmware and looked at them as a single entity hmm wouldn't that be interesting okay here you go so there were nine hundred and seventy five respondents in the last ETR survey when we matched the two companies together and you can see the combined net score is 27% with 42 percent of respondents planning to spend more this year than they did last year so you may be asking well is this any good how does this compare to dell and vmware competitors well I'm glad you asked so here we show that in this chart the net score comparisons so we take the combined dell and vmware at 27% Cisco as we often reported consistently shows pretty strong relative to the enterprise data center players and you can see HPE is a kind of a tepid 17 percent so it's got some work to do to live up to the promises of the HP HPE split we also we also show IBM red hat at 14% so there's some room for improvement there also and you can see IBM in the danger zone as we break that down and red hat much stronger but you know what it softened somewhat in the EGR survey since last year so we'd like to see better momentum from IBM and RedHat it's kind of unfortunate that kovat hit when it did his IBM was just kind of ramping up its RedHat go to market now just for comparison purposes for kicks we include Nutanix nifty annex is a much smaller company but it's one that's fairly mature and you can see at 52% its net scores much higher than the big whales now we've been reporting for months on high fliers like automation anywhere CrowdStrike octa rubric snowflake uipath these emerging companies have net scores you know north of 60% and even in the 70% range but of course they're growing from a much smaller base so you would expect that now let's put this into context with a two-dimensional view that we'd like to show now as you know in addition to net score that metric we like to use so-called market share market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set or essentially market share in the survey and it's a proxy for a real market share so what this chart here does it plots several companies with their net scores on the y-axis and market share on the x-axis and you can see that we combine Dell and VMware together and we plotted them in that red highlighted box just for comparison purposes so what does this tell you about the competitive landscape well first everyone would love to be AWS Microsoft - we didn't plot Microsoft because they're so bloody dominant they skew the chart somewhat but they would be way way out to the right on the x-axis because they have such a huge number of products and mentions in the data set so we left them out now you can see vmware and cisco are kind of right on top of each other which is sort of ironic as they're you know kind of increasingly overlapping with their offerings in the marketplace particularly nsx and you can see the other companies and for context we've added a few more competitors like theme and CommVault and you know they're in a pretty strong position as well as the combination of Dell and VMware so let's start there Steve Phil analyst Brad Reebok was quoted in the market watch publication is saying the following we have long believed Dell would ultimately buy in the approximately 19% our 12 and a half billion of VMware that it does not own in order to gain full control over VMware's substantial free cash flow which is about four billion dollars annually and we still expect this to be the ultimate outcome huh you know I don't know I'm not sure about this on the one hand you can see from the previous chart this would be a better outcome for Dell from a competitive standpoint what it did is it pulls Dell up and to the right yeah but perhaps not so much for VMware as it went down and to the left adèle would have to raise a bunch more cash to do this transaction and what take on even more debt you know maybe it could get Silverlake to finance the deal you know then essentially Dell would become the Oracle of infrastructure you know it certainly would make Dell even more strategic to CIOs would that be good for customers well on the one hand I guess it would bring better integration between Dell and VMware yeah but I wonder if that's the critical issue for customers yeah and nearly and I think it would stifle VMware's innovation engine and a little bit further and I wonder how Pat Yeltsin here would react I mean my guess is he would call it a day and what about Sanjay Putin who was the obvious next in line for the CEO job at VMware what he becomes the president of Dells software division and what about the rest of the team at VMware yes they're a Silicon Valley stalwart and that would slowly morph into austin-based Dell with the debt burden growing you know it's gonna mean more of VMware's cash would go to paying down the debt meaning less for R&D or even stock buybacks what you know I'm not a huge fan of and I'm not a huge fan of this scenario for sure the the technology park partner ecosystem would be ice cold on such a deal although you know you could argue there are already less than lukewarm but here I want to explore some other options so the next on the list is Dell could sell VMware to a private equity firm mmm or a strategic it could basically wipe out its debt and have some cash left over to sail into the sunset that would be a big pill for someone to swallow even though Michael Dell has 97 percent voting power I think there's fine print that says he has a responsibility to protect the interest of the minority shareholders so to get approval it would have to sell at a premium you know that could be as high as you know almost seventy billion dollars Microsoft has the cash but they don't need VMware and Amazon I guess could pull it off but that certainly is not likely even if Google who has the cash we're interested in buying VMware Google be the most likely candidate you know it would give Google Cloud instant access to the coveted enterprise but it's really hard to conceive I mean same for a PE company 65 to 70 billion you know they get their money out in 15 to 20 years so I I just I just don't see that as viable all right what's next how about this scenario of spinning off VMware that the Journal reported so in this transaction Dell shareholders would get a bunch of vmware stock now there may be some financial wizardry that tom sweet dell CFCF owned his band of financial geniuses could swing I can't even begin to speculate what that would be but but I've heard there's some magic that they could pull off to maybe pull some cash out of such a transaction and this would unlock the value of both Dell and VMware by removing the conglomerate and liquidity hangover for Dell and it were to definitely attract more sideline investors into VMware stock and Michael Dell would still own a boatload of VMware stock personally so there's an incentive there so this is interesting and certainly possible you know I think in a way it would be good for VMware customers VMware we get full autonomy and control over its destiny without Delvaux guarding its cash so it could freely innovate Dell would become probably less strategic for customers so I don't think that for Dell EMC buyers you know the technology ecosystem partners like HPE IBM Napa cetera would would would they would like it more but they were already kind of down the path of looking to optimize VMware alternatives so you know think about Cisco but you know I think for VMware customers okay I think for for daily MC customers not so much now what about the do-nothing scenario you know I think this is as possible as any outcome Dell keep chipping away at its debt using VMware as a strategic linchpin with customers sure they continue to pay the liquidity overhang tax and they'll frustrate some shareholders who we're going to remain on the sidelines but you know that's been the pattern anyway now what about delivering some of the VMware ownership so the more I think about it the more I like this scenario what if del sold 20% of its VMware stake and let's say raised ten twelve billion dollars in cash that it could use to really eat into its debt burden a move like this combined with its historical debt pay down could cut its death debt in half by say 2021 and get the company back to investment grade rating something that Tom sweet has aspired towards this one dropped hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars to the bottom line and it would allow Dell to continue to control VMware what I don't know I don't know if there are nuances to this scenario in other words does this dropping ownership from roughly eighty percent to about sixty percent trigger some loss of control or some reporting issue I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the public filings or acquisition Docs but this option to me makes some sense it doesn't really radically alter their relationships with customers or partners so it's kind of stable with VMware maintains its existing autonomy and even somewhat lessens Dale's perceived control over VMware in an attacks Dells debt burden yeah it's still a bit of a halfway house but I think it's a more attractive and as I said stable option in my view okay let's talk about what to look for next you know it looks like the stock market is coming to the reality that we are actually in a recession although it appears that Nasdaq is trying to ignore this or maybe the the markets a little bit off because they're afraid Joe Biden is gonna win the election he's not gonna be good for the for the economy we'll see we'll see what the economic shutdown means for tech companies in this earnings season etrs next survey is in the field and they're gonna have fresh data on the impact of kovat going into the dog days of summer here's what I think let me give you my preview and you'll see in a few weeks you know how accurate is I believe that tech spending is going to be soft broadly I think it's gonna especially be the case for legacy on-prem providers and expect their traditional businesses to to deteriorate somewhat I think there's gonna be bright spots in text protect for sure the ones we've reported on cloud yes absolutely automation you know I'm really looking closely at the battle between the two top our PA vendors automation anywhere in uipath I think there's a really interesting story brewing there and the names that we've been pounding like snowflake the security guys like CrowdStrike and octa and Z scalar I think they're gonna continue to do very well with this work from home pivot we also expect Microsoft to continue to show staying power but because of their size you know they're exposed to soft demand pockets but I think that continue to be very very strong and threatening to a lot of segments in the market now for Dell I think the data center businesses continue to be a tough one despite some of the new product cycles especially in storage but I think dal is gonna continue to benefit from the work from home pivot as I believe there's still some unmet demand and laptops we're gonna see that I believe show up in Dells income statement in the form of their their client revenue I'd love to know what you think you could tweet me at Devante or you can always email me at david dot Volante at Silicon angle com please comment on my LinkedIn post always appreciate I post weekly on silicon angle calm and on wiki bond calm so check out those properties and of course go to e TR dot plus for all the survey action as I say e TR is in the field with the current survey they got fresh Cova data so we're excited the report on that in the coming weeks remember these episodes are all available as podcast wherever you listen this is Dave Volante for the cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

>> people want to work for a mission driven company. People want to buy hope. So from mission driven companies, that state is clear. And the leadership you guys are providing is Cuba's awesome John. For David anti, they're both journalists, friends. There's something I've learned over the last few years about focus of a company. They've always got a very good perspective of mixing up thoughtful questions. V. M R. I was known by a customer is having these two engines engine of innovation, innovating product in a variety of other things and focused on custom obsession. We do those planes go a long way >> right now, a lot of folks from India in our world, But who is your favorite cricketer was it was a such a tender car. Really, really Off their don't stave feels >> like always a little homecoming. I love it just because it just feels like a fine party. Thistles. Sanjay Putin CEO. AVM >> wear and you're watching the Cube

>> Hi. This is Sanjay Putin. C o r p m. >> You're watching the Cube?

>> Hi, This is Sanjay Putin CEO Of'em, Where you're watching the Cube. Hi, this is Sanjay Putin, C 00 ve. And where you're watching live coverage of William World 2019 on the Cube, the leader in global high tech coverage. Hi, this is Sanjay Poon, CEO Of'em, where you're watching live coverage of the VM World 2019 on the Cube, the leader in global high tech coverage. Hi, this is Sanjay Putin. CEO Of'em Were cube coverage of the emerald 2019 continues in a moment. Hi, this is Sanjay Putin, CEO Of'em, where Cube coverage of the emerald 2019 continues in a moment.

>> live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019 brought to you by IBM wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, good afternoon. And welcome back to San Francisco. Where Mosconi north along with David Dante, John Wall's You're watching our coverage here. Live on the Cuba Veum world. 2019 days. I've been over on the other set. I know you've been busy on this side as well. Show going. All right for you >> so far. Yeah, A lot of action going on over here. We had a pact Hellsing on this morning, Michael Dell, with this VM wear hat, we get Sanjay Putin downtown later. >> Yeah, yeah. Good light up. And that lineup continues. Great. Use the CEO Veritas. >> Great to be here. Very John, >> actually, just outside the Veritas Meadow here. Sponsored the this area. This is the meadow set. That >> nice to be here? Yeah, I didn't know >> that. All right, just first off, just give me your your idea of the vibe here. What you are. You're feeling >> what? I think there's a tremendous amount of energy. It's been a lot of fun to be here Obviously VM was talking about this hybrid multi cloud world, and Veritas is 100% supportive of that vision. We work with all the major cloud service providers, you know, eight of us. Google. Microsoft is or we share thousands of customers with the M, where some of the biggest customers, the most complicated customers in the world, where we provide availability and protection and insights for those customers has always >> been the ethos of veritas. When you go back to the early days of Veritas, essentially, it was the storage management, you know, the no hardware agenda, the sort of independent storage company, but pure software. >> That sounds. You >> know, years ago there was no cloud, but there were different platforms, and so that that that that culture has really migrated now into this multi cloud work world. Your thoughts on that >> absolutely look, you know, I'll give an example of a customer that we worked with closely with VM wear on, and that is Renault. America's Renault is Ah, big joint venture. They've got a huge ASAP installation 8000 users 40 terabytes, Big Net backup customer. They also use their products in for a scale and V. R P for availability and D r. And they work with us because we are hardware agnostic. They looked at us against the other competitors, and we're hardware agnostic. And because of that where we came in its 60% lower TCO than those other providers. So we that hardware agnostic approach works really well. You were >> Just touch it on this great little bit when you said, You know whether Tiger, whether it's multi, whether it's private, whatever it is, you know we're here to provide solutions. The fact that this stuff is hard to figure out and really kind of boggle the mind a bit, it's very complex. Um, how much of an inhibitor is that? In terms of what you're hearing from clients and in terms of their progress and and their decision making >> well, let me explain where we sit. And we are the leader in enterprise data protection, availability and insights. We work with the largest, most complex, most high route, highly regulated and most demanding customers on the planet. 99 of the Fortune 100 are customers of Veritas. 10 of the top 10 tell coast 10 of the top 10 healthcare companies and 10 of the top 10 financial institutions. I spend about 50% of my time talking to these customers, so we learn a lot. And here the four big challenges they're facing first is the explosion of data. Data is just growing so fast, Gardner estimates will be 175 Zita bytes of data in 2025. If you cram that in, iPhones will take 2.6 trillion iPhones and go to the sun and back, right? It's an enormous amount of data. Second, they're worried about Ransomware. It's not a question off if you'll be attacked. It's when you'll be attacked. Look at what's happening in Texas right now with the 22 municipalities dealing with that. What you want in that case is a resilient infrastructure. You wanna be terrible to restore from a really good backup copy of data. Third, they want the hybrid multi cloud world, just like Pak Gil Singer has been talking about. That's what customers want, but they want to be able to protect their data wherever it is, make it highly available and get insights in the data wherever it's located. And then finally, they're dealing with this massive growth in government regulations around the world because of this concern about privacy. I was in Australia a few weeks ago and one of our customers she was telling me that she deals with 27 different regulatory environments. Another customer was saying the California Privacy Act will be the death of him. And he's based in St Louis, right? So our strategy is focused on taking away the complexity and helping the largest companies in the world deal with these challenges. And that's why we introduce the enterprise. Data Service is platform, and that's why we're here. VM world Talking >> about Greg. Let's unpack some of those, Asai said. Veritas kind of created a market way back when and now you see come full circle, you got multi cloud. You have a lot of new entrance talking about data management. That's it's always been your play, but you came to the king of the Hell's. Everybody wants a piece of your hide, so that's kind of interesting, But but data growth. So let's let's start there. So it used to be data was, ah, liability. Now it's becoming an asset. So what? What your customers saying about sort of data is something that needs to be managed, needs to be done cost effectively and efficiently versus getting more value on data. And what's Veritas is sort of perspective. >> They're really trying to get insights in their data. Okay. And, uh, that's why we acquired a company called Apt Are. So when I This is my second time of Veritas. I was here from 2003 to 2010 rejoined the company of 2018. I talked to a lot of customers. I've found that their infrastructure was so complex that storage infrastructure so complex the companies were having a hard time figuring out anything about their data. So they're having the hardest time just answering some fundamental questions that boards were asking. Boards are saying because of the ransomware threat. Is all our data protected? Is it backed up? Are all our applications backed up and protected and customers could not answer that question. On the other hand, they also were backing up some data 678 times wasting storage. What apt are does, and it's really amazing. I recommend seeing a demo of that. If you get a chance, it pulls information from Santa raise network file systems, virtual machines, uh, san networking and all data protection applications to get a complete picture of what's happening with your data. And that is one example off what customers really want. >> Okay, so then that kind of leads to the second point, which is ransomware now. Part of part of that is analytics and understanding what's going on in the system as well. So but it's a relatively new concept, right? And ransom. Where is the last couple of years? We've really started to see it escalate. How does Veritas help address that problem? And does apt our play a role there? >> Well, Veritas, it just helps it. Cos address that problem because veritas helps create a resilient infrastructure. Okay, the bad guys are going to get in spear. Phishing works. You know, you you are going to find some employees were gonna click on a link, and the malware is going to get in so all you can do to protect you ultimately have tohave a good backup copies so you can restore at scale and quickly. And so there's been a lot of focus from these large enterprises on restoring at scale very quickly after ransom or attack, it's you're not beholden. You can't be extorted by the ransom or >> the third piece was hybrid. And of course, that leads to a kind of hybrid multi cloud. Let's let's put that category out there now. I've been kind of skeptical on hybrid multi cloud from an application perspective in other words, the vision that you can run any app anywhere in the world without having a retest Rica pile. I've been skeptical that, but the one area that I'm not skeptical and the courage with is data protection because I think actually, you can have a consistent data protection model across your on Prem different on prams, different clouds, because you know you're partnering with all the different cloud cos you obviously have expertise in on premise. So so talk about your approach, their philosophy and maybe any offering. >> Well, this is really what sets us apart. We have been around for 25 years, 2000 patents. We protect everything. 500 different sources of data 150 different targets, 60 different cloud service providers, you know, we compete with two categories of players. We compete with the newcomers, and they only they will only protect your most current technology. They don't go back. We've been around for 25 years. We protect everything, right? We also can't compete with the conglomerates, Okay? In their case, they're not focused. They're trying to do everything. All we do is availability, protection and insights. And that's why we've been in Gardner M Q 13 times and where the market share leader also absolutely >> touch me. Someone Dave was saying about the application side of this. I mean, just your thoughts about, you know, the kinds of concerns the day raises. I mean, it is not alone in that respect. I mean, there are general concerns here, right about whether that that'll fly. What do you think? In terms, >> I think the vision is spot on and like, oh, visions, it takes a while to get to. But I think what VM wears done recently in the acquisition, there've been basically trying to make the control plane for compute okay, and their acquisition of carbon, black and pivotal add to that control plane we're gonna be We are the control plane for data protection. I mean, that's that's the way our customers rely on, >> but that makes sense to me. So I think I feel like the multi cloud vision is very aspirational today, and I think it's gonna be really hard to get there without homogeneous infrastructure. And that's why you see things like Outpost to see the Oracle has clouded customer. You've got Azure Stack. So and I think it's gonna be a multi vendor world. However I do think is it relates the data protection you can set a standard and safe. We were going to standardize on Veritas. So one of us So I think that it's it's achievable. So that was my point there. The last one was was regulations. Do you think GDP are will be a sort of a framework globally body of customers seeing there? >> Well, they're dealing with more than GDP are like I talked about that one customer, 27 different regulatory environments and the challenge there is. How do you deal with that when you don't know what you have in terms of data, the 50% of data is what we call dark data. You don't know anything about right, so you need help classifying it, understanding and getting insight into that data, and that's what we can help >> our customers. But howdy, howdy, dildo. In that environment, I mean, I mean, a day raises the point. This is obvious. A swell that mean you cite California right, which is somewhat infamous for its own regulatory mindset. I mean, how do you exist? What? The United States has privacy concerns and Congress can address it, and various federal agencies could do the same Europe. Obviously we talked about now Australia. Now here. Now there you get this Balkan I system that has no consistency, no framework. And so how do you operate on a global scale? >> A. Mentally. It relies on classifying that data right. Understanding what's where and what do you have is a P I. I personally identifiable information. Is it information that's intellectual property? What kind of data you have once you have that insight, which is what we provide, you can layer on top of the regulatory Is that compliance? >> Star I P. Is that Veritas i p. A blender? >> It's a blend of avatar and veritas I p. We have a product called Info Studio that helps toe provide that now Remember one of the things that are net backup product has is a catalogue of data. So we know where the data is primary to secondary storage, and we have all the versions of that data. And then we can run analytics against the secondary storage and not hit the primary systems. Right? So we're out of band to the primary systems, and that turns out to be very valuable in the state's a >> question. The catalog. I can't do this without a catalogue in the enough to geek out here a little bit, but but you've got a little bit when you bring in multi clouds. Other clouds. How do you incorporate you know that knowledge into your catalog? >> Yeah. Art, art, technology work Idol of works across multiple clouds. So we work with 60 different Cloud service providers. There's three big ones represented here today. Microsoft, AWS and Google. We work very closely with all three, and >> that's because you do the engineering at the A P. I level. Our engineering teams work very, very closely together. Okay, um, so let's talk about competition a little bit. The markets heated up. It's great. It's good to see all this VC money floating in. Everybody I said wants a piece of your hide. Why Veritas? >> Well, I explained that, you know, we are the leader in enterprise, data protection, availability and insights. There are some newcomers. They just will support you on your current technology. They don't support the infrastructure you've had for many years. If your large complicated enterprise you have layers of technology, we support all that with VIN amount for 25 years against, the big conglomerates were completely focused. And that's why we're the leader, according to Gartner, in the Leader's Quadrant 13 years >> now. And just as we close up you talked about, you brought up the case in Texas, about 22 municipalities. You do a lot of public sector work states, federal government ever. It's just what is the difference of different animal between public and private and and what you need to do in terms of providing that >> we're struggling with the same challenge. In fact, we work with some of the largest government agencies in the world, and they're struggling with exactly the same challenge. They also want leverage the public cloud. They're worried about ransom where you know they're dealing with data growth. All of these are challenges to them. And that's the, uh So these are common challenges we're addressing. Our strategy is to help our customers with these challenges so they can focus on the value of data >> 18 months in. You seem pumped up. Does having a great time team fired up >> way. Get that right. Great. But you're okay with big geeking out to write a very good thanks for the time You've run out of time. 40 Niners next time. All right. Greg Hughes joining us from Veritas. Back with more Veum, World 2019 right here on the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, CUBE's live coverage for VMworld 2019 in Moscone North, in San Francisco, California. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Dave, our 10 years, we have Eric Herzog, the CMO and vice president of Global Storage Channels at IBM. CUBE alum, this is his 11th appearance on theCUBE at VMworld. That's the number one position. >> Dave: It's just at VMworld. >> Congratulations, welcome back. >> Well, thank you very much. Always love to come to theCUBE. >> John: Sporting the nice shirt and the IBM badge, well done. >> Thank you, thank you. >> What's going on with IBM in VMworld? First, get the news out. What's happening for you guys here? >> So for us, we just had a big launch actually in July. That was all about big data, storage for big data and AI, and also storage for cyber-resiliency. So we just had a big launch in July, so we're just sort of continuing that momentum. We have some exciting things coming out on September 12th in the high end of our storage product line, and then some additional things very heavily around containers at the end of October. >> So the open shift is the first question I have that pops into my head. You know, I think of IBM, I think of IBM Storage, I think of Red Hat, the acquisition, OpenShift's been very successful. Pat Gelsinger was talking containers, Kubernetes-- >> Eric: Right. >> OpenShift has been a big part of Red Hat's offering, now part of IBM. Has that Red Shift, I mean OpenShift's come in, to your world, and how do you guys view that? I mean, it's containers, obviously, is there any impact there at all? >> So from a storage perspective, no. IBM storage has been working with Red Hat for over 15 years, way before the company ever thought about buying them. So we went to the old Red Hat Summits, it was two guys, a dog, and a note, and IBM was there. So we've been supporting Red Hat for years, and years, and years. So for the storage division, it's probably one of the least changes to the direction, compared to the rest of IBM 'cause we were already doing so much with Red Hat. >> You guys were present at the creation of the whole Red Hat movement. >> Yeah, I mean we were-- >> We've seen the summits, but I was kind of teeing up the question, but legitimately though, now that you have that relationship under your belt-- >> Eric: Right. >> And IBM's into creating OpenShift in all the services, you're starting to see Red Hat being an integral part across IBM-- >> Eric: Right. >> Does that impact you guys at all? >> So we've already talked about our support for Red Hat OpenShift. We do support it. We also support any sort of container environment. So we've made sure that if it's not OpenShift and someone's going to leverage something else, that our storage will work with it. We've had support for containers now for two and half years. We also support the CSI Standard. We publicly announced that earlier in the year, that we'd be having products at the end of the year and into the next year around the CSI specification. So, we're working on that as well. And then, IBM also came out with a thing that are called the Cloud Paks. These Cloud Paks are built around Red Hat. These are add-ons that across multiple divisions, and from that perspective, we're positioned as, you know, really that ideal rock solid foundation underneath any of those Cloud Paks with our support for Red Hat and the container world. >> How about protecting containers? I mean, you guys obviously have a lot of history in data protection of containers. They're more complicated. There's lots of them. You spin 'em up, spin 'em down. If they don't spin 'em down, they're an attack point. What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, first thing I'd say is stay tuned for the 22nd of October 'cause we will be doing a big announcement around what we're doing for modern data protection in the container space. We've already publicly stated we would be doing stuff. Right, already said we'd be having stuff either the end of this year in Q4 or in Q1. So, we'll be doing actually our formal launch on the 22nd of October from Prague. And we'll be talking much more detail about what we're doing for modern data protection in the container space. >> Now, why Prague? What's your thinking? >> Oh, IBM has a big event called TechU, it's a Technical University, and there'll be about 2,000 people there. So, we'll be doing our launch as part of the TechU process. So, Ed Walsh, who you both know well and myself will be doing a joint keynote at that event on the 22nd. >> So, talk a little bit more about multi-cloud. You hear all kinds of stuff on multi-cloud here, and we've been talkin' on theCUBE for a while. It's like you got IBM Red Hat, you got Google, CISCO's throwin' a hat in the ring. Obviously, VMware has designs on it. You guys are an arms dealer, but of course, you're, at the same time, IBM. IBM just bought Red Hat so what are your thoughts on multi-cloud? First, how real is it? Sizeable opportunity, and from a storage perspective, storage divisions perspective, what's your strategy there? >> Well, from our strategy, we've already been takin' hybrid multi-cloud for several years. In fact, we came to Wikibon, your sister entity, and actually, Ed and I did a presentation to you in July of 2017. I looked it up, the title says hybrid multi-cloud. (Dave laughs) Storage for hybrid multi-cloud. So, before IBM started talkin' about it, as a company, which now is, of course, our official line hybrid multi-cloud, the IBM storage division was supporting that. So, we've been supporting all sorts of cloud now for several years. What we have called transparent cloud tiering where we basically just see cloud as a tier. Just the way Flash would see hard drive or tape as a tier, we now see cloud as a tier, and our spectrum virtualized for cloud sits in a VM either in Amazon or in IBM Cloud, and then, several of our software products the Spectrum line, Spectrum Protect, Spectrum Scale, are available on the AWS Marketplace as well as the IBM Cloud Marketplace. So, for us, we see multi-cloud from a software perspective where the cloud providers offer it on their marketplaces, our solutions, and we have several, got some stuff with Google as well. So, we don't really care what cloud, and it's all about choice, and customers are going to make that choice. There's been surveys done. You know, you guys have talked about it that certainly in the enterprise space, you're not going to use one cloud. You use multiple clouds, three, four, five, seven, so we're not going to care what cloud you use, whether it be the big four, right? Google, IBM, Amazon, or Azure. Could it be NTT in Japan? We have over 400 small and medium cloud providers that use our Spectrum Protect as the engine for their backup as a service. We love all 400 of them. By the way, there's another 400 we'd like to start selling Spectrum Protect as a service. So, from our perspective, we will work with any cloud provider, big, medium, and small, and believe that that's where the end users are going is to use not just one cloud provider but several. So, we want to be the storage connected. >> That's a good bet, and again, you bring up a good point, which I'll just highlight for everyone watching, you guys have made really good bets early, kind of like we were just talking to Pat Gelsinger. He was making some great bets. You guys have made some, the right calls on a lot of things. Sometimes, you know, Dave's critical of things in there that I don't really have visibility in the storage analyst he is, but generally speaking, you, Red Hat, software, the systems group made it software. How would you describe the benefits of those bets paying off today for customers? You mentioned versatility, all these different partners. Why is IBM relevant now, and from those bets that you've made, what's the benefit to the customers? How would you talk about that? Because it's kind of a big message. You got a lot going on at IBM Storage, but you've made some good bets that turned out to be on the right side of tech history. What are those bets? And what are they materializing into? >> Sure, well, the key thing is you know I always wear a Hawaiian shirt on theCUBE. I think once maybe I haven't. >> You were forced to wear a white shirt. You were forced to wear the-- >> Yes, an IBM white shirt, and once, I actually had a shirt from when I used to work for Pat at the EMC, but in general, Hawaiian shirt, and why? Because you don't fight the wave, you ride the wave, and we've been riding the wave of technology. First, it was all about AI and automation inside of storage. Our easy tier product automatically tiers. You don't have, all you do is set it up once, and after that, it automatically moves data back and forth, not only to our arrays, but over 450 arrays that aren't ours, and the data that's hottest goes to the fastest tier. If you have 15,000 RPM drives, that's your fastest, it automatically knows that and moves data back and forth between hot, fast, and cold. So, one was putting AI and automation in storage. Second wave we've been following was clearly Flash. It's all about Flash. We create our own Flash, we buy raw Flash, create our own modules. They are in the industry standard form factor, but we do things, for example, like embed encryption with no performance hit into the Flash. Latency as low as 20 microseconds, things that we can do because we take the Flash and customize it, although it is in industry standard form factor. The other one is clearly storage software and software-defined storage. All of our arrays come with software. We don't sell hardware. We sell a storage solution. They either come with Spectrum Virtualize or Spectrum Scale, but those packages are also available stand-alone. If you want to go to your reseller or your distributor and buy off-the-shelf white-box componentry, storage-rich servers, you can create your own array with Spectrum Virtualize for block, Spectrum Scale for File, IBM Object Storage for Cloud. So, if someone wants to buy software only, just the way Pat was talking about software-defined networking, we'll sell 'em software for file blocker object, and they don't buy any infrastructure from us. They only buy the software, so-- >> So, is that why you have a large customer base? Is that why there's so much, diverse set of implementations? >> Well, we've got our customers that are system-oriented, right, some you have Flash system. Got other customers that say, "Look, I just want to buy Spectrum Scale. "I don't want to buy your infrastructure. "Just I'll build my own," and we're fine with that. And the other aspect we have, of course, is we've got the modern data protection with Spectrum Protect. So, you've got a lot of vendors out on the floor. They only sell backup. That's all they sell, and you got other people on the floor, they only sell an array. They have nice little arrays, but they can't do an array and software-defined storage and modern data protection one throat to choke, one tech support, entity to deal with one set of business partners to deal with, and we can do that, which is why it's so diverse. We have people who don't have any of IBM storage at all, but they back up everything with Spectrum Protect. We have other customers who have Flash systems, but they use backup from one of our competitors, and that's okay 'cause we'll always get a PO one way or another, right? >> So, you want the choice as factor. >> Right. >> Question on the ecosystem and your relationship with VMware. As John said, 10th year at VMworld, if you go back 10 years, storage, VMware storage was limited. They had very few resources. They were throwin' out APIs to the storage industry and sayin' here, you guys, fix this problem, and you had this cartel, you know, it was EMC, IBM was certainly in there, and NetApp, a couple others, HPE, HP at the time, Dell, I don't know, I'm not sure if Dell was there. They probably were, but you had the big Cos that actually got the SDK early, and then, you'd go off and try to sell all the storage problems. Of course, EMC at the time was sort of puttin' the brakes on VMware. Now, it's totally different. You've got, actually similar cartel. Although, you've got different ownership structure with Dell, EMC, and you got (mumbles) VMwware's doin' its own software finally. The cuffs are off. So, your thoughts on the changes that have gone on in the ecosystem. IBM's sort of position and your relationship with VMware, how that's evolved. >> So, the relationship for us is very tight. Whether it be the old days of VASA, VAAI, V-center op support, right, then-- >> Dave: V-Vault, yeah yeah. >> Now, V-Vault two so we've been there every single time, and again, we don't fight the wave, we ride the wave. Virtualization's a wave. It's swept the industry. It swept the end users. It's swept every aspect of compute. We just were riding that wave and making sure our storage always worked with it with VMware, as well as other hypervisors as well, but we always supported VMware first. VMware also has a strong relationship with the cloud division, as you know, they've now solved all kinds of different things with IBM Cloud so we're making sure that we stay there with them and are always up front and center. We are riding all the waves that they start. We're not fighting it. We ride it. >> You got the Hawaiian shirt. You're riding the waves. You're hanging 10, as you used to say. Toes on the nose, as the expression goes. As Pat Gelsinger says, ride the new wave, you're a driftwood. Eric, great to see you, CMO of IBM Storage, great to have you all these years and interviewing you, and gettin' the knowledge. You're a walking storage encyclopedia, Wikipedia, thanks for comin' on. >> Great, thank you. >> All right, it's more CUBE coverage here live in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier for Dave Vellante, stay with us. I got Sanjay Putin coming up, and we have all the big executives who run the different divisions. We're going to dig into them. We're going to get the data, share with you. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live Cube coverage here in San Francisco, California Mosconi North were in the lobby for VM World 2019. I'm John for a day. Volante are 10 years covering VM World's been exciting, Dave, and we've watched all the changes and our next guest is going to illuminate all the benefits at the top of the stack, as I call the end user experience. Shaker Ire, Who's the V S v. P. And general manager End User Computing within VM, where what that means is, he takes care of all the stuff that we're virtualization creates those efficiencies. I think what Palmer's just called end user computing still, but they still have that name back then, if I remember correctly, >> yeah, you >> know the name is stuck because it's ah, it's sort of income, passes all the technologies and uses use right as digital interface is. So that's why it's and use the computing. It's any digital interface that anybody at work uses. Now, the interesting thing is people don't work in an office anymore, and the interface is no longer just a laptop. >> Well, I want to get into some stupid questions around the work environment cause whether you working at a cafe or at home is all kinds of security issues. Also, user experiences. Collaboration software. But let's first get the news out of the way. Digital work, Space news What's the What's going on? The show? What you guys announcing? Yeah, so >> before we get to >> the news that we met me, frame it up a little bit right? Because when you think about organizations today, especially with the changing demographics, where they're going in terms of new devices, the mobility phenomenon, right, the transformation they're going through in terms of just their own cloud and APS and so on, right it. Every every one of those things effects employees, right. And at the end of the day, you know what organizations want is for the employees to have a great experience all the way, as we call it from higher to retire. Not to do that, you know you need a platform because I can just give you a pretty apt running in the laptop and say, Great, that's That's the end of the employees experience, right? It's fundamentally transforming the own whole environment. That's why it's still retains its term and use the computing. And to do that, you have to hit at least three facets, right? One is, of course, How do you deliver a great experience for the employees where they can get any app, any device, anywhere, any form? Anyway, that's one aspect of it. The second aspect of it is from a nightie standpoint. I've gotta manage all this complexity, right, and it's only growing. It's not shrinking with all the head virginity, so there's a management angle of it, and then the tone angle of it is, you know, security. As you pointed out, right security so important. In fact, what you users want is they don't want any security driven compromises. What is an example of security, even compromise, that I have to go through three passwords because he simply don't trust me? Heck, figure it out. Is what the user's Saito I t especially the millennials. Right. So s So you gotta address that. So the platform that we have workspace one actually addresses all three So we have innovations today and news in all three areas, right? So it's an example. Employ experiences, something we've been driving with enterprises and corporations for at least two years. Now we've upped the ante. We have now introducing a virtual assistant that employees can use either through voice or text to essentially ask questions. Hey, what's how do I get into WiFi? What's my employee directory? Um, you know who I go to first? You know this and that, right? As employed onboard the organization. Those examples of virtual assistant can do it. So we released the virtual assistant. That's a big piece of news in the employ experience. Sadie. Another big piece of news is we are introducing a tech preview of what we call digital employees experience management, which means I t now has a user expedient score that they can look at and say, Hey, is David getting a great expedience? No, it's poor, and I can die right in. I can find out the root cause I can fix the issue, and I could do that automatically. >> KP eyes can come out of that right? Absolutely serviceability. >> Absolutely. And I think you know, I've talked to many Cee Io's and we you know, we drive works based one and they for awhile sort of told me, Hey, this is all good. But >> I don't know how I'm doing all my >> doing with respect to, you know, your best best customer. Um, I ahead and behind and far behind. So this really helps them. >> Here. Let me ask the questions. That's a good point I want because this gets down to the heart of the issue. What is the top requests that you're getting from your customers or top two or three features? That pattern that continued comes back from your customer base when it comes to end user computing. These the experience, >> it spends all three things, right? So the first thing is, they're saying, Listen, I want to be able to deliver a great employee experience some, you know, help me do that. Helping measure and make sure I know what journey, Eman That's one right. Second is I've got to set virginity. I've got this complexity of God. You know, I always phones. I've got android tablets. I've got a you know, Dell laptop. I've got a Mac book. I've got you know a rugged device. I've got some work space I ot devices like printers and ex sector X factor. I've got this head virginity. Just help me manage this complexity in a sort of a unified, seamless, uniform way. Right? And third is help me secure my enterprise. So there's a whole model emerging called zero Trust. Where in the old world, what you do is you just build a huge wall around the enterprise, right? A pedometer, and say I'm inside the wall. I need to be domain joined on that inside the fire world. Therefore, I'm good. I mean, you got to throw that out of the window anymore. >> Doesn't exist in your model, because if a millennial or workaround working at home, that means every single i p device on my network potentially a compromise point. >> Correct. So you have You have to start with that device never ought to be trusted. And every network is hostile, right? If you start out for that reminds, then you build trust over time, right? And how do you build trust? You first say you leverage user identity, You say Okay, Davis who he is, right? And so that becomes an identity. You say this device is trusted or partially trusted. So one of the things we're announcing its part of innovations today is what we call workspace to risk analytic, which means we're able to provide a risk or write for the device. And we can say, Hey, this device is a risk on a score of 1 to 10 of eight, which means I can mostly trust it. Maybe you don't trust the sensitive apse. So therefore, a block access to the most sensitive apse, right? So use a combination of different things. They use things like NSX micro segmentation to your point about how we build on the Via Mary Stack. The carbon black acquisition is phenomenal because it gives us that intelligence. So collectively, we're able to sort of implement the zero trust model. Right. So >> those are the >> three main topics, right? Is employed expedience, unified management and zero trust security are really, really >> important. I want to ask you about your tenure, gm, where coincided with the air watch expedition. And prior to that event theme, we're struggled in this space. Ana Citrix dominated your pre Gerald. You know, your former company kind of fumbling around in air watch now. Air watch, if I recall correctly from wrong was not like the number one player. Just like people are saying carbon blacks, not the number one player. Absolutely. And then you get into the VM where flywheel effect or Sanjay Putin came in and it was great leader. But I wonder if you could sort of describe the ascendancy of the end user computing business at at VM wear. And I'm curious you mentioned carbon black and you kind of replicate that with our end point cloud security, peace. There's obviously a security use case. You clearly just described it, but take us back to >> great, great, great question. So actually, I joined right when literally, maybe a month before the air watch acquisition. Right then. So a Sandy and I and the rest of the team sort of worked this. We said, Hey, listen, a watch is a phenomenal sort of mobile management and security player. We had a very good product and horizon VD I, but it was a little bit isolated, and there were others, like, say, tricks that are sort of motor head in that space. So what? The first thing we did is we have three assets. Actually, the third I said what we had a Fed rated identity asset that we had purchase, but not leverage. So we said he know what the identity really has to get coupled with. You know, the death star pulled the mobile world, so we actually took these three piece parts and started integrating it as he started integrating it. We said, You know, this actually forms a very interesting work space, and we said It's a digital work space to be sort of coined that term and started to really tight together. The experience is a user would have, whether they were in a mobile device, a physical desktop or a virtual desktop right and made that seamless. So that's when the work's based one app was born and this was probably around the 2015 time frame. So we started releasing it, and then we started to stitching together basically all the back and integrations, right, So out >> of >> this out of that was born a workspace. And so, in 2016 with the momentum of the workspace, desktop business came back because now it had it been on. We've done a lot of work on the desktop businesses. Well, we made it very competitive with Citrix. We bought volumes. We integrated that we made it actually the best media solution. The markets, with a tremendous traction by itself in the horizon space and then integrating it works with people, said You know what, I need to get that workspace. And why am I dealing with Citrix this horizon solution within workspace in a more than salts my problem. In fact, it's better in certain areas. So that sort of got momentum going around that we really built that workspace momentum. And that was, I would say, till about 2016 or so. And then we saw these three things coming up. One is Hey, employees, experience matters. We really started pouring effort into the employees experience from, you know, day one day two and beyond. And then recently, including this show, we added divided sort of Day zero and then the off boarding pieces. Well, so employees experience became sort of the lightning rod for why somebody would adopt this workspace one platform which were built by then, right, and then we added on this ability to do modern management, especially on Windows and Mac, which was really starting to take off last year completely. Darden rounded out that portfolio and handsome capability, and then we added Now zero trust model, which is which is now sort of bolstered by the acquisition of carbon black. So you can see this a set off cascading talk, full moves. But we did it in a way where, you know, it was really truly integrated. So when as we come out with carbon black now, one of the most interesting things is right when carbon black comes into the fold, we've already done the integration. We're actually going to show it on my keynote right after this, right? We're actually showing the integration between workspace one intelligence and carbon backs You There you have it. You already have an asset that's completely integrated. >> So the risk or is interesting to me as well, so as endpoint security, because much, much more importantly, no fishing is you know, the big way that people get give up credentials. Does >> any of >> this seep into machines and I ot and edge? >> Yeah, and fabulous question. >> Wonder if you could come. >> Absolutely. I think listen, be if you think about risk oars and if >> you think about >> risks at large and devices they've been largely and Windows devices and not to and blame it on Windows, I think they might accept in a fabulous job of sort of progressing windows. But by far it's the most used operating system in the enterprise, right? But Mobile is getting used there. There, you know, it's starting to make a huge starting take a large part of the real estate of the enterprise. So I think we have a unique opportunity now through the data we collect on mobile devices with workspace one using the underlying air watch technology coupled with some of the, um, you know, data that, you know, data analytics tools we have in the carbon black cloud and the way they do sort of threat analysis and, uh, and determine potential attack vectors. We have an opportunity to leverage that intelligence. And that day, the lake and that technology, coupled with the data, we have to really now build a broader sort of threat surface understanding across multiple devices, and eventually that goes into a I ot. Right. So we're actually going to be working with some of the other technologies we have in Wimmer called Paul's Right. Pulse is very interesting because they have the ability to speak multiple device protocols that nobody does. Okay, so we're gonna take advantage of them potentially to sort of be able to start to poke into devices that are attached to the office, but not quite attached to the office. In the sense they're not mainstream devices you and I would use. But indirectly, you may use it, right? So be able to sort of get a much broader view off a visibility of devices. Second is how to manage them through a combination of workspace, one impulse and third, to get the data so that we can feed it into this federated cloud of workspace one intelligence and carbon black to understand the risk. And that way you have this three prom thing, right? I >> wanna ask you a personal question. Pat gal singer was very prolific this week again. Props of in social Media, Mojo doing a selfie on stage with Craig. Job ate up. Yeah, um, doing a little morning thing, telling people how he prepares for his keynote. Yeah. So how do you prepare for your keynote. Do you like, give it for a M and hit the gym and get a job coming up right after this interview? >> I do. I I I'm not fat. That's incredibly disciplined, I think. I think it's been waking up at 4 a.m. for a long time, so I'm not that much of an early bird. But I prepare because, you know, I've been involved in the construction of the keynote. So for me, it's, um, be started work on this, probably about three months ago, because the story came together. It's very natural to me. Just like you asked me the question. You know, tell me about the evolution. It's just a very natural thing because, like telling you >> on relevant story, not just beady eye. Yeah, it's so much more now. >> It's so much more And, you know, and I've lived through this and I participated in most of the decision making, so, you know, when my head of product marketing company said, Hey, what should we do with the keynote? I said, You know, I have the storyline in mind, right? And sit on the same three or four pillars I'm talking to you about, right? How do we tell the story to the audience about what is the platform? Why should they sort of bet on it? How did they sort of deploy it, show them some real world examples and then basically sprinkling all the innovations? That sounds exciting. So? So because of that story lines always being in my head. So it's not that hard. It's just sometimes you just need to sort of a CZ. You're unstable. >> You're preparing Saul, you're part of Yeah, I was handing it to you. Nobody related it. So >> for me, I think it's just sometimes just rehearsing some of the key parts. And then, of course, the visual cues. And they >> want to slam home the big point. They go. You know, I've been looking at your career. You have to check your technologies, but also, you're pretty much been a product leader. Yeah, and your career definite. So I gotta ask you around from the big movements in the innocent. Like your perspective as a participant. This was a product leaders Well, executive in there and done that. Amazon introduced their first conference around cloud security called reinforces. Here we get Cube coverage there. It was interesting because it wasn't like a typical security conference like black hat. Definitely on our say wasn't so much I t is really about cloud security. And so Dave and I were speculating like, this is the first cloud security show. I mean, dedicated to kind of cloud security didn't say cloud security, but essentially, cloud security. >> What is >> your take on the cloud security? Because a >> little bit >> of a different view, little bit architectural change. If you gotta have the on premises, you're gonna have the cloud if things any working together, some things you're doing and security quite frankly, around isolation to, you know, working in in any environment. You're that year in the middle of it all. >> Yeah. >> What is cloud >> security and why I have a conference isn't relevant with your thoughts. >> That's a >> great question. I think you know, you see many of these trends, I think, you know, listen, many of these conferences, they provoke their thought provoking, so it forces you to think right? So when I think about cloud security now, traditionally when you think about cloud security, you would think about technologies like Cass be light cloud access service broker. You would think about encryption to means much more than I do >> all the usual stuff in the back. If he's there, other people are there. But no. >> Yeah, I mean more than my coffee. I think you know you. It's sort of you think of the the the NL unlocked to cloud securities Data center security where you think of the sort of Amazon cloud living in Amazon Data Center. And, you know, how can we protect the, you know, the data and the egress access into those cloud and in the same technology sort of apply, but to your point that you sort of just touched upon its That cloud is not living in isolation. First of all, that Amazon Cloud is connected to a whole bunch of, you know, applications that are still sitting in the data center. Right. So they were not there. Potentially not moving the Oracle database today isn't there moving some workloads to the cloud, right? That's what most most companies are. Hey, guess what? There's all these end points of the connecting the connecting both the data center in the cloud. You're not gonna proxy to the cloud to get to the data center. So there's gateways. So do me. Cloud security can't be an isolated, you know, sort of technology that companies have to sort of think about now is there Is there opportunity to leverage the cloud to manage security better and get visibility in the security environment to do security? Analytics? Absolutely. So I think to me, that's where it's going. Because security, I think, has been proven, is no longer. You know, the one sing single thing. It's just you have to do multiple things. Every time I go talk to CSO's, they tell me they got this technology. I said, Hey, wait a minute. You you have 20. Did you cut down any yet? We've got down a few, but you know, they're just nervous about cutting down too much. Because of that one piece of software >> insurance policy. They're insecure. >> They cut to the added four, >> another tool. Bullshit. I think I think the architecture will get simpler because it's way too complex, but the same time I think you have to. There's no sustenance, cloud security and network security or endpoint security, and >> maybe there's a whole new group emerging within VM where that you could add to your repertoire en Pointe computing group your end user computing. Why don't have endpoint computing? That's >> what you're holding >> is you know is all about what do we need to do for the user? Both as I t and the end user? Okay. And now he now folks like hr and so on, the securities has to be built into it, right? So much like that. I think when you go build our data centers are the public cloud and build this hybrid clouds, security is to be built into that as >> well. We'll shake our thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. A super important area. We're gonna be covering this. This is cloud to point of this end user computing. This is where the edge of the network is. That's where the people are. They are part of the edge. A thin part of the edge of a big part of the edge. You're gonna be in the middle of it will be following the attraction. Thanks for coming on. You So much for having me having played Cuba, Cuba live here in San Francisco on chopper develop the state tune from or we have two sets. Three days of wall to wall coverage, worldly in day one. Stay with us. We gotta have Michael Dell. Pat Nelson. Come on Tomorrow and a lot more guests coming onto. They stay with us. We'll be right back.

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Dell Technologies. World twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> The one Welcome to the Special Cube Live coverage here in Las Vegas with Dell Technologies World 2019. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante breaking down day one of three days of wall the wall Coverage - 2 Cube sets. Uh, big news today and dropping here. Dell Technology World's series of announcements Cloud ability, unified work spaces and then multi cloud with, uh, watershed announced with Microsoft support for VMware with Azure are guests here theCUBE alumni that Seo, senior leader of'Em Where Sanjay *** and such a great to see you, >> John and Dave always a pleasure to be on your show. >> So before we get into the hard core news around Microsoft because you and Satya have a relationship, you also know Andy Jassy very well. You've been following the Clouds game in a big way, but also as a senior leader in the industry and leading BM where, um, the evolution of the end user computing kind of genre,  that whole area is just completely transformed with mobility and cloud kind of coming together with data and all this new kinds of applications. The modern applications are different. It's changing the game on how end users, employees, normal people use computing because some announcement here on their What's your take on the ever changing role of cloud and user software? >> Yeah, John, I think that our vision , as  you know, it was the first job I came to do at VMware almost six years ago, to run and use a computing. And the vision we had at that time was that you should be able to work at the speed of life, right? You and I happen to be on a plane at the same time  yesterday coming here, we should be able to pick our amps up on our devices. You often have Internet now even up at thirty thousand feet. In the consumer world, you don't lug around your CDs, your music, your movies come to you. So the vision of any app on any device was what we articulated with the digital workspace We. had Apple and Google very well figured out. IOS later on Mac,  Android,  later on chrome . The Microsoft relationship in end use the computing was contentious because we overlapped. They had a product, PMS and in tune. But we always dreamed of a day. I tweeted out this morning that for five and a half years I competed with these guys. It was always my dream to partner with the With Microsoft. Um, you know, a wonderful person, whom I respect there, Brad Anderson. He's a friend, but we were like LeBron and Steph Curry. We were competing against each other. Today everything changed. We are now partners. Uh, Brad and I we're friends, we'll still be friends were actually partners  now why? Because we want to bring the best of the digital workspace solution VMware brings workspace one to the best of what Microsoft brings in Microsoft 365 , active directory, E3 capabilities around E. M. S and into it and combined those together to help customers get the best for any device. Apple, Google and Microsoft that's a game changer. >> Tell about the impact of the real issue of Microsoft on this one point, because is there overlap is their gaps, as Joe Tucci used to say, You can't have any. There's no there's no overlap if you have overlapped. That's not a >> better to have overlapped and seems right. A gaps. >> So where's the gaps? Where this words the overlapping cloud. Next, in the end user world, >> there is a little bit of overlap. But the much bigger picture is the complementarity. We are, for example, not trying to be a directory in the Cloud That's azure active directory, which is the sequel to Active Directory. So if we have an identity access solution that connect to active directory, we're gonna compliment that we've done that already. With Octo. Why not do that? Also inactive Directory Boom that's clear. Ignored. You overlap. Look at the much bigger picture. There's a little bit of overlap between in tune and air Watch capabilities, but that's not the big picture. The big picture is combining workspace one with E. M s. to allow Office 365 customers to get conditional access. That's a game, so I think in any partnership you have to look past, I call it sort of these Berlin Wall moments. If the U. S and Soviet Union will fighting over like East Germany, vs West Germany, you wouldn't have had that Berlin wall moment. You have to look past the overlaps. Look at the much bigger picture and I find the way by which the customer wins. When the customer wins, both sides are happy. >> Tearing down the access wall, letting you get seamless. Access the data. All right, Cloud computing housely Multi cloud announcement was azure something to tell on stage, which was a surprise no one knew was coming. No one was briefed on this. It was kind of the hush hush, the big news Michael Delll, Pat Girl singer and it's nothing to tell up there. Um, Safia did a great job and really shows the commitment of Microsoft with the M wear and Dell Technologies. What is this announcement? First, give us your take an analysis of what they announced. And what does it mean? Impact the customers? >> Yeah, listen, you know, for us, it's a further That's what, like the chess pieces lining up of'Em wars vision that we laid up many years for a hybrid cloud world where it's not all public cloud, it isn't all on premise. It's a mixture. We coined that Tom hybrid loud, and we're beginning to see that realize So we had four thousand cloud providers starting to build a stack on VM, where we announced IBM Cloud and eight of us. And they're very special relationships. But customers, some customers of azure, some of the retailers, for example, like Wal Mart was quoted in the press, released Kroger's and some others so they would ask us, Listen, we're gonna have a way by which we can host BMO Workloads in there. So, through a partnership now with Virtue Stream that's owned by Dell on DH er, we will be able to allow we, um, where were close to run in Virtue Stream. Microsoft will sell that solution as what's called Azure V M, where solutions and customers now get the benefit of GMO workloads being able to migrate there if they want to. Or my great back on the on premise. We want to be the best cloud infrastructure for that multi cloud world. >> So you've got IBM eight of us Google last month, you know, knock down now Azure Ali Baba and trying you. Last November, you announced Ali Baba, but not a solution. Right >> now, it's a very similar solutions of easy solution. There's similar what's announced with IBM and Nash >> So is it like your kids where you loved them all equally or what? You just mentioned it that Microsoft will sell the VM wear on Azure. You actually sell the eight of us, >> so there is a distinction. So let me make that clear because everything on the surface might look similar. We have built a solution that is first and preferred for us. Called were MacLeod on a W s. It's a V m er manage solution where the Cloud Foundation stack compute storage networking runs on a ws bare metal, and V. Ember manages that our reps sell that often lead with that. And that's a solution that's, you know, we announced you were three years ago. It's a very special relationship. We have now customer attraction. We announce some big deals in queue, for that's going great, and we want it even grow faster and listen. Eight of us is number one in the market, but there are the customers who have azure and for customers, one azure very similar. You should think of this A similar to the IBM ah cloud relationship where the V C P. V Partners host VM where, and they sell a solution and we get a subscription revenue result out of that, that's exactly what Microsoft is doing. Our reps will get compensated when they sell at a particular customer, but it's not a solution that's managed by BM. Where >> am I correct? You've announced that I think a twenty million dollars deal last quarter via MacLeod and A W. And that's that's an entire deal. Or is that the video >> was Oh, that was an entirely with a customer who was making a big shift to the cloud. When I talked to that customer about the types of workloads, they said that they're going to move hundreds off their APs okay on premise onto via MacLeod. And it appears, so that's, you know, that's the type of cloud transformation were doing. And now with this announcement, there will be other customers. We gave an example of few that Well, then you're seeing certain verticals that are picking as yours. We want those two also be happy. Our goal is to be the undisputed cloud infrastructure for any cloud, any cloud, any AP any device. >> I want to get your thoughts. I was just in the analysts presentation with Dell technology CFO and looking at the numbers, the performance numbers on the revenue side Don Gabin gap our earnings as well as market share. Dell. That scales because Michael Delll, when we interviewed many years ago when it was all going down, hinted that look at this benefits that scale and not everyone's seeing the obvious that we now know what the Amazon scale winds so scale is a huge advantage. Um, bm Where has scale Amazon's got scale as your Microsoft have scales scales Now the new table stakes just as an industry executive and leader as you look at the mark landscape, it's a having have not world you'd have scale. You don't If you don't have scale, you're either ecosystem partner. You're in a white space. How do companies compete in this market? Sanjay, what's your thoughts on I thinkit's >> Jonah's? You said there is a benefit to scale Dell, now at about ninety billion in revenue, has gone public on their stock prices. Done where Dellvin, since the ideal thing, the leader >> and sir, is that point >> leader in storage leader inclined computing peces with Vienna and many other assets like pivotal leaders and others. So that scale VM, Where about a ten billion dollar company, fifth largest software company doing verywell leader in the softer to find infrastructure leader, then use a computing leader and softer, defined networking. I think you need the combination of scale and speed, uh, just scale on its own. You could become a dinosaur, right? And what's the fear that every big company should have that you become ossified? And I think what we've been able to show the world is that V M wear and L can move with scale and speed. It's like having the combination of an elephant and a cheetah and won and that to me special. And for companies like us that do have scaled, we've to constantly ask ourselves, How do we disrupt ourselves? How do we move faster? How do we partner together? How do we look past these blind spots? How do we pardon with big companies, small companies and the winner is the customer. That's the way we think. And we could keep doing that, you'll say so. For example, five, six years ago, nobody thought of VMware--this is going before Dell or EMC--in the world of networking, quietly with ten thousand customers, a two million dollar run rate, NSX has become the undisputed leader and software-defined networking. So now we've got a combination of server, storage and a networking story and Dell VMware, where that's very strong And that's because we moved with speed and with scale. >> So of course, that came to an acquisition with Nice Sarah. Give us updates on the recent acquisitions. Hep C e o of Vela Cloud. What's happening there? >> Yeah, we've done three. That, I think very exciting to kind of walk through them in chronological order about eighteen months ago was Velo Cloud. We're really excited about that. It's sort of like the name, velocity and cloud fast. Simple Cloud based. It is the best solution. Ston. How do we come to deciding that we went to talk to our partners like t other service providers? They were telling us this is the best solution in town. It connects to the data center story to the cloud story and allows our virtual cloud network to be the best softer. To find out what you can, you have your existing Mpls you might have your land infrastructure but there's nobody who does softer to find when, like Philip, they're excited about that cloud health. We're very excited about that because that brings a multi cloud management like, sort of think of it like an e r P system on top of a w eso azure to allow you to manage your costs and resource What ASAP do it allows you to manage? Resource is for materials world manufacturing world. In this world, you've got resources that are sitting on a ws or azure. Uh, cloud held does it better than anybody else. Hefty. Oh, now takes a Cuban eighty story that we'd already begun with pivotal and with Google is you remember at at PM world two years ago. And that's that because the founders of Cuban eighties left Google and started FTO. So we're bringing that DNA we've become now one of the top two three contributors to communities, and we want to continue to become the de facto platform for containers. If you go to some of the airports in San Francisco, New York, I think Keilani and Heathrow to you'LL see these ads that are called container where okay, where do you think the Ware comes from Vienna, where, OK, and our goal is to make containers as container where you know, come to you from the company that made vmc possible of'Em where So if we popularized PM's, why not also popularised the best enterprise contain a platform? That's what helped you will help us do >> talk about Coburn at ease for a minute because you have an interesting bridge between end user computing and their cloud. The service is micro. Services that are coming on are going to be powering all these APS with either data and or these dynamic services. Cooper, Nettie sees me the heart of that. We've been covering it like a blanket. Um, I'm gonna get your take on how important that is. Because back Nelson, you're setting the keynote at the Emerald last year. Who burn it eases the dial tone. Is Cooper Netease at odds with having a virtual machine or they complimentary? How does that evolving? Is it a hedge? What's the thoughts there? >> Yeah, First off, Listen, I think the world has begun to realize it is a world of containers and V ems. If you looked at the company that's done the most with containers. Google. They run their containers in V EMS in their cloud platform, so it's not one or the other. It's vote. There may be a world where some parts of containers run a bare metal, but the bulk of containers today run and Beyonce And then I would say, Secondly, you know, five. Six years ago, people all thought that Doctor was going to obliterate VM where, But what happened was doctors become a very good container format, but the orchestration layer from that has not become daugher. In fact, Cuban Eddie's is kind of taking a little of the head and steam off Dr Swarm and Dr Enterprise, and it is Cooper Navy took the steam completely away. So Senses Way waited for the right time to embrace containers because the obvious choice initially would have been some part of the doctor stack. We waited as Borg became communities. You know, the story of how that came on Google. We've embraced that big time, and we've stated a very important ball hefty on All these moves are all part of our goal to become the undisputed enterprise container platform, and we think in a multi cloud world that's ours to lose. Who else can do multi cloud better than VM? Where may be the only company that could have done that was Red Hat. Not so much now, inside IBM, I think we have the best chance of doing that relative. Anybody else >> Sanjay was talking about on our intro this morning? Keynote analysis. Talking about the stock price of Dell Technologies, comparing the stock price of'Em where clearly the analysis shows that the end was a big part of the Dell technologies value. How would you summarize what v m where is today? Because on the Kino there was a Bank of America customers. She said she was the CTO ran, she says, Never mind. How we got here is how we go floors the end wars in a similar situation where you've got so much success, you always fighting for that edge. But as you go forward as a company, there's all these new opportunities you outlined some of them. What should people know about the VM? We're going forward. What is the vision in your words? What if what is VM where >> I think packed myself and all of the key people among the twenty five thousand employees of'Em are trying to create the best infrastructure company of all time for twenty one years. Young. OK, and I think we have an opportunity to create an incredible brand. We just have to his use point on the begins show create platforms. The V's fear was a platform. Innocent is a platform workspace. One is a platform V san, and the hyper convert stack of weeks right becomes a platform that we keep doing. That Carbonetti stuff will become a platform. Then you get platforms upon platforms. One platforms you create that foundation. Stone now is released. ADelle. I think it's a better together message. You take VX rail. We should be together. The best option relative to smaller companies like Nutanix If you take, you know Veum Where together with workspace one and laptops now put Microsoft in the next. There's nobody else. They're small companies like Citrix Mobile. I'm trying to do it. We should be better than them in a multi cloud world. They maybe got the companies like Red Hat. We should have bet on them. That said, the end. Where needs toe also have a focus when customers don't have Dale infrastructure. Some people may have HP servers and emcee storage or Dell Silvers and netapp storage or neither. Dellery emcee in that case, usually via where, And that's the way we roll. We want to be relevant to a multi cloud, multi server, multi storage, any hardware, any cloud. Any AP any device >> I got. I gotta go back to the red hat. Calm in a couple of go. I could see you like this side of IBM, right? So So it looks like a two horse race here. I mean, you guys going hard after multi cloud coming at it from infrastructure, IBM coming at it with red hat from a pass layer. I mean, if I were IBM, I had learned from VM where leave it alone, Let it blossom. I mean, we have >> a very good partisan baby. Let me first say that IBM Global Services GTS is one about top sai partners. We do a ton of really good work with them. Uh, I'm software re partner number different areas. Yeah, we do compete with red hat with the part of their portfolios. Relate to contain us. Not with Lennox. Eighty percent plus of their businesses. Lennox, They've got parts of J Boss and Open Stack that I kind of, you know, not doing so well. But we do compete with open ship. That's okay, but we don't know when we can walk and chew gum so we can compete with Red Hat. And yet partner with IBM. That's okay. Way just need to be the best at doing containing platform is better than open shifter. Anybody, anything that red hat has were still partner with IBM. We have to be able to look at a world that's not black and white. And this partnership with Microsoft is a good example. >> It's not a zero sum game, and it's a huge market in its early days. Talk >> about what's up for you now. What's next? What's your main focus? What's your priorities? >> Listen, we're getting ready for VM World now. You know in August we want to continue to build momentum on make many of these solutions platforms. So I tell our sales reps, take the number of customers you have and add a zero behind that. OK, so if you've got ten thousand customers of NSX, how do we get one hundred thousand customers of insects. You have nineteen thousand customers of Visa, which, by the way, significantly head of Nutanix. How do we have make one hundred ninety thousand customers? And we have that base? Because we have V sphere and we have the Delll base. We have other partners. We have, I think, eighty thousand customers off and use of computing tens of millions of devices. How do we make sure that we are workspace? One is on billion. Device is very much possible. That's the vision. >> I think that I think what's resonating for me when I hear you guys, when you hear you talk when we have conversations also in Pat on stage talks about it, the simplification message is a good one and the consistency of operating across multiple environments because it sounds great that if you can achieve that, that's a good thing. How you guys get into how you making it simple to run I T. And consistent operating environment. It's all about keeping the customer in the middle of this. And when we listen to customs, all of these announcements the partnership's when there was eight of us, Microsoft, anything that we've done, it's about keeping the customer first, and the customer is basically guiding up out there. And often when I sit down with customers, I had the privilege of talking hundreds of thousands of them. Many of these CEOs the S and P five hundred I've known for years from S athe of'Em were they'LL Call me or text me. They want us to be a trusted advisor to help them understand where and how they should move in their digital transformation and compared their journey to somebody else's. So when we can bring the best off, for example, of developer and operations infrastructure together, what's called DEV Ops customers are wrestling threw that in there cloud journey when we can bring a multi device world with additional workspace. Customers are wrestling that without journey there, trying to figure out how much they keep on premise how much they move in the cloud. They're thinking about vertical specific applications. All of these places where if there's one lesson I've learned in my last ten twenty years of it has become a trusted advisor to your customers. Lean on them and they will lean on you on when you do that. I mean the beautiful world of technology is there's always stuff to innovate. >> Well, they have to lean on you because they can't mess around with all this infrastructure. They'LL never get their digital transformation game and act together, right? Actually, >>= it's great to see you. We'Ll see you at PM, >> Rollo. Well, well, come on, we gotta talk hoops. All right, All right, All right, big. You're a big warriors fan, right? We're Celtics fan. Would be our dream, for both of you are also Manny's themselves have a privileged to go up against the great Warriors. But what's your prediction this year? I mean, I don't know, and I >> really listen. I love the warriors. It's ah, so in some senses, a little bit of a tougher one. Now the DeMarcus cousins is out for, I don't know, maybe all the playoffs, but I love stuff. I love Katie. I love Clay, you know, and many of those guys is gonna be a couple of guys going free agents, so I want to do >> it again. Joy. Well, last because I don't see anybody stopping a Celtics may be a good final. That would be fun if they don't make it through the rafters, though. That's right. Well, I Leonard, it's tough to make it all right. That sounds great. >> Come on. Sanjay Putin, CEO of BM Wear Inside the Cube, Breaking down his commentary of you on the landscape of the industry and the big news with Microsoft there. Other partner's bringing you all the action here Day one of three days of coverage here in the Cubicle two sets a canon of cube coverage out there. We're back with more after this short break.

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Run. Welcome to the Cube here, live in San Francisco on Mosconi South were on the floor at Google. Next twenty nineteen. Hashtag Google Next nineteen. I'm John for my co host this week for three days and wall to wall coverage of Google's cloud conference is with Dave. Alonso Has too many men. Guys day one of three days of wall to wall coverage. We got Thomas Curry in the new CEO on the job for ten weeks. Took the realm from Diane Green. Thirty five thousand attendees. It's packed. It's definitely a developer crowd. It feels a lot like a WS, not a corporate show like Microsoft or IBM or others or Oracle. It's really more about developers. We just heard the Kino. Google's making some moves. The new CEO is gonna put on a show. He saw two customers you see in the positioning. Soon DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google, came out really kind of. Ah, interesting keynote Feels like Thomas's that's gonna shake that Oracle off, but he's guns blaring. Some new announcements. Guys, let's do a round upon the keynote. >> Yeah. So, John, as you said, a great energy here that this place is bustling sitting here where we are, we could see everybody is going through the Expo Hall. As you said. Is Google serious about this? This whole cloud activity? Absolutely. There's no better way than to have your CEO up. There we go, The Amazon show. You don't see Jeff Bezos there into the Microsoft shows? You know, you don't usually see you know their CEO. There you have the Cloud Group does the cloud thing, but absolutely. Cloud is a critical piece of what Google is doing. And it's interesting because I actually didn't feel as geeky and his developer focused as I would expect to see at a Google show. Maybe they've heard that feedback for years that, you know, Google makes great stuff, but they're too smart in there, too geeky When you go to the Amazon show, they're announcing all of the different, you know, puting storage pieces and everybody's hooting and hollering. Here it was a little bit more business. It was high level. They had all these partners out on stage and customers out on stage. Many of them, you know, you talk about retail and health care and all these other ones where you say, Okay, Amazons, a major competitor there. So, you know, can Google stake their claim as to how they're going to move up from the number three position and gain more market share? You know, as they fit into the multi cloud, which we know we're going to spend a lot of time on, wears their position in this cloud space today. >> What your thoughts. >> Well, first of all, there's a big show. I mean, it's we're here at IBM thick in February. This feels like a much, much larger event, Number one Stew said. It's really much more developer heavy, I think. John, there's no question people don't question Googles Global Cloud Presence. Soon Dar talked about two hundred countries, ninety cloud regions fifty eight plus two new data centers. So no question there. But there are questions as to whether or not Google could move beyond search and maps and Gmail and really be a big cloud player for Enterprise Cloud that really is to the elephant in the room. Can Google innovate and attractive CEOs? They showed a number of customers, not nearly, of course, as many as what Amazon or even Microsoft would show. They're talking about ecosystem. To me, that ecosystem slide. It's got a cord truthful this year to really show some progress. But you've got new leadership as we talked about last year, John and love to get your thoughts on this. Google's playing the long game. They've got the best tech and you know they've got great data. Great. Aye, aye. I want to take >> into the new rebranding of the Google Cloud platform, which is now called Antos, which is a Greek word for flour. We kind of had visibility into This would kind of start coming. But before we get into that, I want to just kind of point out something that we've reported on looking angle, some that we've been saying on Twitter on DH about Diane Greene. It's been reported that she was fired from Google for missing on red hat. All these rumors, but interesting Thomas Koreans first words, a CEO on stage. It was a direct shout out to Diane Greene. I think this validates our reporting and our analysis that Diane Green absolutely helped hire curry and work with the boy workers Sundar And essentially, because she was the architect of rebuilding Google Clouds Enterprise chops the team there that she recruited we've been following and covering. Diane Green built that foundation. She passed the torch. Thomas Curry. This was not a Diane Green firing, so I think I think Thomas Carrion nice gesture on Diane Green kind of sets the table and validates and preserves her legacy as the rebuilder re architect of Google Cloud. >> Pretty interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think this where there's some smoke, there's fire that don't think Diana Corning court fired. I think you know that she was under a lot of pressure. She was here for seven years. I think they probably felt like Okay, now it's time to really bring somebody in. Who wants to take this to the next level? And I'll die unnecessarily had the stomach for that >> John Really great points there. But it does talk about you know what is the culture of Google? You know, the elephant The room is what is Google? Google makes you know most of their money on advertising. That's not what Google Cloud is. It doesn't fit into the additional model. You know, Google's culture is not geared for the enterprise. As you know that the critique on Google for years has been We make really great stuff and you need to be Google E. And you need to do things the way we do Thomas Koreans out there. We need to meet customers where they are today. That's very much what we hear in the Enterprise. That that's what you hear. You know when you talk about Amazon or Microsoft, they're listening to their customers. They're meeting them at their business applications there, helping them build new environment. So, you know, will Google be a little less googly on DH? Therefore, you know, meet customers and help work them, and that leads to the multi clouding the anthros discussed. >> We heard a lot about that today. I mean, John, you've pointed out many, many times that Cooper Netease is the linchpin to Google strategy. It's really you know, that was the kind of like a Hail Mary relative Tae Ws and that's what we heard today. Multi cloud, multi cloud, multi cloud, where is with a W s. And certainly to a lesser extent, Oracle. It's Unit Cloud Multi Cloud is more expensive is what they tell us. Multi cloud is less secure. A multi cloud is more complex. Google's messaging is exactly the opposite of >> that. So, Dave, just to poke it that a little bit, is great to see Sanjay *** Inn up on stage with VM wear. But where we last cvm were to cloud show. It's an Amazon. They've got a deep partnership here. Cooper Netease is not a differentiator for Google. Everybody's doing it. Even Amazon is being, you know, forced to be involved in it. Cisco was up on stage. This guy's got a deep partnership with Amazon and a ks. So you know, Cooper Netease is not a magic layers. Good job, Ada said on the Cube. Q. Khan. It is something that you know Google, that management layer and how I live in a multi cloud environment. Yes, Google might be further along with multi cloud messaging, then say Amazon is, But you know, Amazons, the leader in this space and everybody that has multiple clouds, Amazons, one of them, even the keynote >> This morning aboard Air Force right eight, I was forced into Cooper days you're not CNW s run demos that show, you know, a target of the Google clouded the Microsoft. You saw that today from Google >> while we see how the Amazon demos with our oracle. But that's the result. Let's let's hold off on the partisan saying, Let's go through the Kino So the Diane Green comment also AOL came out. Who runs VP of Engineer. He's the architect. One. This Antos product. Last year, they announced on G. C. P s basically a hybrid solution G a general availability of Antos, which has security built in out of the box. Multi cloud security integrated for continues integration, confused development, CCD pipeline ing very key news and that was really interesting. This is such a their new platform that they've rebranded called Antos. This is a way for them to essentially start posturing from just hybrid to multi cloud. This is the shift of of Google. They want to be the on premise cloud solution and on any cloud, your thoughts. >> You know, the demo said it all. The ability to take V m movement two containers and move them anywhere right once and move anywhere and that, I think, is is the key differentiator right now. Relative to certainly eight of us. Lesser extent Microsoft, IBM right there with red hat. That's to me The interesting angle >> Here. Look, Google has a strong history with Ken Containers. If you if you scroll back to the early days of doctor twenty fourteen, twenty, fifty, Google's out there as to how many you know, it just so many containers that they're building up and tearing down. However you go to the Microsoft. So you go to the Amazon show. We're starting to talk a lot more about server list. We're gonna have the product lead for surveillance on today. I'm excited to dig into that because on a little bit concerned that Google is so deep in the containers and how you Burnett eases, they're looking for, like a native to connect the pieces, but that they are a little bit behind in some of the next generation architectures built on journalists for death. >> I want to make a point here if you're not the leader in cloud which, you know in Enterprise Cloud, which Google is not, you know, IBM is not or, you know, Oracle is not okay, fine, but if you don't have a cloud like Cisco or Dell or VM, where you have to go after multi cloud. Amazon's not in a rush to go after multi cloud. There's no reason down the road. Amazon can't go after that opportunity. To the extent that it's a real tam, it's There's a long way to go. Talk about early innings were like having started the game of Outpost >> hasn't even been spect out. Yes, sir, there has not been relieved. So we're seeing what Amazon's got knowing they are the clouds. So they're the incumbent. Interesting enough on Jennifer Lin. You mention the demo. Jennifer Lin Cube alumni. We gonna interview her later. She introduced on those migrate Kind of reminds me of some of the best shows we have the migration tools and that migrates work clothes from PM wears into containers running in containers. As you mentioned. A. This is an end and no modified co changes. That's a big deal, >> John. Exactly on Twitter, people are going. Is this the next emotion? You know, those of us who've been in the industry while remember how powerful that was able to seamlessly migrate? You know, the EMS and containers at, You know, I shouldn't have to think about Colin building it where it lives. That was the promise of has for all those years and absolutely things like uber Netease what Google's doing, chipping away at that. They're partnering with Cisco, there partner with pivotal parting with lots of companies so that that portability of code isa lot of >> Master Jack is a cloud of emotion. I mean, we know what the motion did in the Enterprise. >> To me, that's the star. The keynote is actually the rebranding associate positioning thing. But the star of the show is the Jennifer Lin demo, because if anthems migrate actually works, that's going to tell. Sign to me on how fast Google can take territory now. What's interesting also with the announcements, was, I want to get you guys thoughts on this because we cover ecosystems, we cover how Cloud and Enterprise have been pardoning over the years. Enterprise is not that easy. Google has found out the hard way Microsoft is done really well. They've installed base. Google had stand this up from the beginning again. Diane Greene did a great job, but now it's hard. It's a hard nut to crack. So you see Cisco on stage. Cisco has huge enterprise. Cloud the em Where comes on stage? David Gettler Gettler, the VP of engineering of Cisco, one of their top executives on stage. And he has Sanjay *** and keep alumni came on. Sanjay had more time. Francisco. So you have two companies who kind of compete? NSX. We have suffered a fine Cisco both on stage. Cisco, absolutely integrating into We covered on silicon angle dot com just posted it live where Cisco is actually laying down their container platform and integrating directly into Google's container platform to offer a program ability End to end. I think that's something that didn't get teased out on the keynotes doing, because this allows for Google to quickly move into the enterprise and offer true program ability of infrastructure. This is the nirvana of infrastructure is code. This is what Dev Ops has been waiting for. Still your thoughts on this because this could be a game changer. Hydro, what's an A C I. This could put pressure on VM, where with the containers running in platform and the Cisco relationship your thoughts. >> So John Cisco has a broad portfolio. When you talk about multi cloud, it's not just the networking components, it's the eyes, absolutely apiece. But that multi cloud management, uh, is a layer that Cisco has, you know, been adding two and working on for a lot of years, and they've got very key partnerships. So making sure, you know, seeing right seeing David vehicular onstage here. Proof, Cisco, lot of enterprise customers him where, Of course, six hundred thousand customers. They're So Google wants to get into these accounts. You look at, you know, Microsoft strength of their enterprise agreements that they have. So how will Google get into some of these big accounts? Get into the procurement, get into the environment? And there's lots of different methods and partnerships We said our credit >> David vehicular undersold the opportunity here. I mean, when it comes to he did at working Inter Cloud. Sisko is in the poll possession position to basically say we got the best network, the highest performance networks, the most secure networks, and we're in a position to connect all these clouds. And to me, that didn't come out today. So when you think about multi cloud, each of these companies is coming at it from a position of strength. Cisco. Very clearly dominant networking VM wear in virtual ization and I think that came through. And Sanjay *** ins, you know, keynote. I think again Gettler undersold it, but it's a great opportunity for Cisco and Google. >> Well, I think Google has a huge opportunity. It Cisco because if they have a go to market joint sales together, that could really catapult Google sails again. If I get really was kind of copy, we're we're Cisco. But Cisco look, a bm was on stage with them. I thought that was going to be a Hail Mary for for Sisko to kind of have bring that back. But then watching Sanjay Putin come on saying, Hey, we're okay, it's going to be a V m World And Pat Kelsey has been on the record saying, Coo Burnett eases the dial tone of the Internet stew. This is an interesting matchup between Cisco and BM, where your thoughts >> Yeah, so so right. There's so many pieces here, a cz to where their play way. No, there's competitive competition and, you know, partnerships. In a lot of these environments, Google actually has a long history of partnering. You know, I can't even think how many years ago, the Google and GM or Partnership and Cisco. If I can't actually, Dave, there's There's something I know you've got a strong viewpoint on. You know, Thomas Kurian left Oracle and it was before he had this job. Every he says, you know, is T. K going to come in here and bring, you know, oracles, you know, sales methodology into Google. You know, What does he bring? What's his skill set on? You know >> what exact community? I think it's the opposite, right? I think that's why you left Oracle because he didn't want every database to run in the Oracle, Cloudy realised is a huge opportunity out there. I think the messaging that I heard today is again it's completely I saw something on Twitter like, Oh, this is just like organ. It's nothing like Oracle. It's the It's the polar opposite opposite of what Oracle is doing. >> I think I think curry and can really define his career. This could be a nice swan song for him. As he takes Google with Diane Greene did builds it out, does the right deals if he can build on ecosystem and bring the tech chops in with a clear go to market. He's not going to hire the salespeople and the SCS fast enough. In my opinion, that's gonna be a really slow boat. Teo promised land. He's got to do some deals. He's gotta put Some Corp Devin Place has gotta make some acquisitions will be very in the sin. DARPA Kai, the CEO, said. We are investing heavily in cloud. If I'm Amazon, I'm worried about Google. I think they are dark horse. They have a lot of they have a clean sheet of paper. Microsoft, although has legacy install base. Google's got, I think, a lot more powder, if you will. Dave, >> what One little sign? I agree without John, I think you're absolutely right. The clean sheet of paper and deep pockets, you know, and the long game in the great tech. Uh, you have a son should be worried about Google. One little side note, it's still you. And I talked about this. Did you hear? Uh uh, Thomas asked Sanjay Putin about Dell, Dell Technologies, and Sunday is an executive. Dell was talking about the whole Del Technologies portfolio. I thought it was a very interesting nuance that we had previously seen from VM wear when they were owned by himself. >> Dave, you know, we see Delon Veum where are almost the same company these days that they're working together? But John, as you said, I actually like that. You know, we didn't have some big announcement today on an acquisition. Thomas Kurian says. He's got a big pocket book. He's going to be inquisitive, and it'LL be interesting to see, do they? By some company that has a big enterprise sales force. It can't just be old legacy sales trying to go into the cloud market. That won't work, but absolutely the lot of opportunities for them to go out. They didn't get get, huh? They didn't get red hat. So who will? Google Page? You >> guys are right on man. Sales Force is still a big question mark, And how can they hire that fast? That's a >> And again, he's only been on the job for ten weeks. I think is going to get his sea legs. I think it's him. He's going to come in. He's gonna ingratiating with culture. It'Ll be a quick decision. I think Google culture will accept or reject Thomas Curry and based upon his first year in operations, he's going to get into the team, and I think the Wall Street Journal kind of comment on that. Will he bring that Oracle? I thought that was kind of not a fair assessment, but I think he's got the engineering chops toe hang with Google. He kind of gets the enterprise mark one hundred percent been there, done that. So I think he's got a good shot. I think you could make the right moves. Of course we're here making the moves on the Cube here live for day, one of three days of wall to wall coverage. I'm sorry, David. Lock These two minute men here in Google, next in Mosconi in San Francisco Live will be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! (bright music) Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this special presentation in the Marlborough offices of theCube. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with a friend, a colleague, a mentor of mine, David Moschella who is an author and a Fellow at Leading Edge Forum. Dave, thanks for coming in. It's great to see you. >> Hey, great to see you again. So we're going to talk about your new book, Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s. I got it here on my laptop. Got it off of Amazon, so check it out. We're going to be unpacking what's in there today. This is your third book I believe, right? Waves of Power and... >> David: Customer-Driven IT. >> Customer-Driven IT which was under the '03 timeframe coming out of the dot-com, and to me this is your most significant work, so congratulations on that. >> Well, thank you. >> Dave: I know how much work goes into it. >> You bet. >> So what was the motivation for writing this book? >> Well it's a funny thing when books are a lot of work, and during those times you wind up asking yourself why am I (laughing) doing this because they put in so much time. But for the last seven or eight years our group, the Leading Edge Forum, we've been doing a lot of work mostly for large organizations and our clients told us that the work we've been doing in consumerization, in Cloud, in disruption, in machine intelligence was really relevant to not just them but to their wider audiences of their partners, their customers, their employees. And so people are asking can we get this to a wider audience, and really that is what the book is trying to do. >> Yeah, you guys have done some great work. I know when I can get my hands on it I consume it. For those of you who don't know, Dave originally came up with the theory of disintegration to kind of explain the shift from centralized mainframe era to the sort of open distributed competition along different lines which really defined the Wintel era. So that was kind of your work really explaining industry shifts in a way that helped people and executives really understand that. And then the nice thing about this book is you're kind of open-sourcing a decade's worth of research that yourself and your colleagues have done. So talk about the central premise of the book. We're entering a new era. We're sort of exiting the Cloud, Web 2.0 era. We're still trying to figure out what to call this. But what's the central premise of the book? >> Yeah, the central premise is that the technologies of the 2020s will indeed define a new era, and the IT era industry just evolves. We had the mainframe era, the mini era, the PC and the Internet era, the mobility era, and now we're going in this era of intelligence and automation and blockchains and speech and things that are just a entire new layer of intelligence, and that that layer to us is actually more the powerful than any of the previous layers we've seen. If you think back, the first Web was founded around technologies like search and email and surfing the Web, quite simple technologies and created tremendous companies. And then the more recently we have sort of the social era for Facebook and Salesforce. And all these companies, they sort of took advantage of the Cloud. But again, the technologies are relatively simple there. Now we're really looking at a whole wave of just fundamentally powerful technology and so trying to anticipate what that's going to mean. >> So going from sort of private networks to sort of public networks to a Cloud of remote services to now this set of interrelated digital services that are highly accessible and essentially ubiquitous is what you put forth in the book, right? >> Yeah, and we put a lot of emphasis on words. Why do words change? We had an Internet that connected computers and a Web that sort of connected pages and documents and URLs. And then we started talking about Cloud of stuff out there somewhere in cyberspace. But when we look at the world that's coming and we use those words, pervasive, embedded, aware, autonomous, these aren't words that are really associated with a Cloud. And Cloud is just a metaphor, that word, and so we're quite sure that at some point a different word will emerge because we've always had a different word for every era of change and we're going into one of those eras now. >> So a lot of people have questions about we go to these conferences and everybody talks about digital disruption and digital transformation, and it's kind of frankly lightweight a lot of times. It doesn't have a lot of substance to it. But you point out in the book that CEOs are asking the question, "How do I get digital right?" They understand that something's happening, something's changing. They don't want to get disrupted, but what are some of the questions that you get from some of your clients? >> Yeah, that first question, are we getting digital right sort of leads to almost everything. Companies look at the way that a Netflix or Amazon operates, and then they look at themselves and they see the vast difference there. And they ask themselves, "How can we be more like them? "How can we be that vast, that innovative, that efficient, "that level of simple intuitive customer service?" And one of the ways we try to define it for our clients is how do they become a digital first organization where their digital systems are their face to the marketplace? And most CEOs know that their own firm doesn't operate that way. And probably the most obvious way of seeing that is so many companies now feeling the need to appoint a Chief Digital Officer because they need to give that task to someone, and CDOs are no panacea but they speak to this need that so many companies feel now of really getting it right and having a leadership team in place that they have confidence in. And it's very hard work, and a lot of our clients, they still struggle with it. >> One of the other questions you ask in the book that is very relevant to our audience given that we have a big presence in Silicon Valley is can Silicon Valley pull off a dual disruption agenda? What do you mean by that? >> Yeah, if you look at the Valley historically you could see them essentially as arms merchants. They were selling their products and services to whoever wanted to buy them, and companies would use them as they saw fit. But today in addition to doing that they are also what we say is they're an invading army, and they are increasingly competing with the very customers they've traditionally supplied, and of course Amazon being perhaps the best example of that. So many companies dependent on AWS as a platform, but there's Amazon trying to go after them in health care or retail or grocery stores or whatever business they're in. Yeah, content, every business under the sun. And so they're wearing these two dual disruptions hats. The technologies of our time are very disruptive, machine intelligence, blockchains, virtual reality, all these things have disruptive technology. But that second disruptive agenda of how do you change insurance, how do you change health care, how do change the car industry, that's what we mean, those two different types of disruptions. And they're pursuing both at the same time. >> And because it's digital and it's data, that possibility now exists that a company, a technology company can traverse industries which historically haven't been able to be penetrated, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, in our view every industry is going to be transformed by data one way or another. Whether it is disrupted or not is a second question, but the industry'll be very different when all of these technologies come into play, and the tech companies feel like they have the expertise and the vision of it. But they also have the money, and they're going to bet heavily to pursue these areas to continue their growth agenda. >> So one of the other questions of course that IT people ask is what does it mean for my job, and maybe we can, if we have time, we can talk about that. But you answer many of these questions with a conceptual framework that you call the Matrix which is a very powerful, you said words matter, a very powerful concept. Explain the Matrix. >> Okay, yeah. If we start and go back they have this idea that every generation of technology has its own words, Internet, Web, Cloud, and now we're going to a new era, so there will be a new word. And so we use the word Matrix as our view of that, and we chose it for two reasons. Obviously there's the movie which had its machine intelligence and virtual worlds and all of that. But the real reason we chose it is this concept that a matrix as in matrix mathematics is a structure that has rows and columns. And rows and columns is sort of the fundamental dynamic of what's going on in the tech sector today, that traditionally every industry had its own sort of vertical stack of capabilities that it did and it was sort of top to bottom silo. But today those horizontal platforms, the PayPals, the AWSs, the Facebooks, they run this, Salesforce, all these horizontal services that cut across those firms. And so increasingly every industry is leveraging a common digital infrastructure, and that tension between the traditional vertical stacks and these enormously powerful horizontal technology firms is really the structural dynamic that's in play right now. >> And at the top of that Matrix you have this sort of intelligence and automation layer which is this new layer. You don't like the term artificial intelligence. You make the point in the book there's nothing really artificial about it. You use machine intelligence. But that's that top layer that you see powering the next decade. >> Absolutely, if you look at the vision that everybody tends to have, autonomous cars, personalized health care, blockchain-based accounting, digital cash, virtual education, brain implants for the media, every one of those is essentially dependent on a layer of intelligence, automation, and data that is being built right now. And so just as previous layers of technology, the Web enabled a Google or an Amazon, the Cloud enabled AWS or Salesforce, this new layer enables companies to pursue that next layer of capabilities out there to build that sort of intelligent societal infrastructure of the 2020s which will be vastly different than where we are today. >> Will the adoption of the Matrix, in your opinion, occur faster because essentially it's built on the Internet and we have the Internet, i.e. faster than say the Internet or maybe some other major innovations, or is it going to take time for a lot of reasons? >> I think the speed is actually a really interesting question because the technology of the 2020s are extremely powerful, but most of them are not going to be immediate hits. And if you look back, say, to search, when search came out it was very powerful and you could scale it massively quickly. You look at machine learning, you look at blockchains, you look at virtual realities, you look at algorithms, speech and these areas, they're tremendously powerful. But there's no scenario where those things happen overnight. And so we do not see an accelerating pace of change. In fact it might be people often overestimate the speed of change in our business and consistently do that. But what we see is a sort of fundamental transformation over time, and that's why we put a lot of emphasis on the 2020s because we do not see two years from now this stuff all being in place. >> And you have some good examples in the book going back to the early days of even telephony. So it's worth checking that out. I want to talk about, bring it back to data, Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Facebook, top five companies, public companies in terms of market cap. Actually it's not true after the Facebook fake news thing. I mean Berkshire Hathaway is slightly past Facebook. >> It'll be back (laughs). But I agree, it'll be back, but the key point there is these companies are different, they've got data at their core. When you compare that to other companies even financial services industry companies that are really data companies but the data's very bespoken, it's in silos. Can those companies, those incumbent companies, can they close that gap? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we do a lot of work in the area of machine intelligence, artificial, whatever you want to call it. And one of the things you see immediately is this ridiculously large gap between what these leading companies do versus most traditional firms because of the talent, the data, the business model, all the things they have. So you have this widening gap there. And so the big question is is that going to widen or is it going to continue, will it narrow? And I think that the scenario for narrowing it I think is a fairly good one. And the message we say to a lot of our clients is that you will wind up buying a lot more machine intelligence than you will build because these companies will bring it to you. Machine intelligence will be in AWS. It'll be in Azure. It'll be in Salesforce. It'll be in your devices. It'll be in your user interfaces. It'll be in the speech systems. So the supply-side innovations that are happening in the giants will be sold to the incumbents, and therefore there will be a natural improvement in today's situation where a lot of incumbents are sort of basically trying to build their own stuff internally, and they're having some successes and some not. But that's a harder challenge. But the supply side will bring intelligence to the market in a quite powerful way and fairly soon. >> Won't those incumbents, though, have to sort of reorganize in a way around those new innovations given that they've got processes and procedures that are so fossilized with their existing businesses? >> Absolutely, and the word digital transformation is thrown around everywhere. But if it means anything it is having an organization that is aligned with the way technology works. And a good example of that is when you use Netflix today there's no separate sales experience, market experience, customer service, it's just one system and you have one team that builds those systems. In a typical corporation of course you have the sales organization and the marketing organization and the IT organization and the customer service organization. And those silos is not the way to build these systems. So the message we send to our clients if you really want to transform yourself you have to have more of this team approach that is more like the way the tech players do it. And that these traditional boundaries essentially go away when you go in the digital world where the customer experience is all those things at the same time. >> So if I'm hearing you correctly it's sort of a natural progression of how they're going to be doing business and the services that they're going to be procuring, but there's probably other approaches. Maybe it's force, but you're seeing maybe M&A or you're seeing joint ventures. Do you see those things as accelerating or precipitating the transformation or do you think it's futile and it really has to be led from the top and at the core? >> It's one of the toughest issues out there. And the reason people talk about transformation is because they see the need. But the difficulty is enormous. Most companies would say this is a three- or four-year process to make significant change, and this in a marketplace that changes every few months. So incumbent firms, they see where they want to go and it's very hard, and this is why this whole thing of getting digital right is so important, that people need to commit to significant change programs, and we're seeing it. And my parent company, DXC, we do a lot of this with clients and they want to embark on this program and they need people who can help them do it. And so leading a transformation agenda in most firms is really what digital leadership is these days and who's capable of doing that which requires tremendous skills in soft skills and hard skills to do right. >> Let's talk about industries and industry disruption. When you looked at the early disrupted industries whether it was publishing, advertising, music, one maybe had the tendency to think it was a bits versus atoms thing, but you point out in the book it's really not the case because you look at taxis, you look at hotels. Those are physical businesses and they've been disrupted quite substantially. Maybe you could give us some thoughts and insight there, particularly with regard to things like health care, financial services which haven't been disrupted. >> And there's a huge part of the work that I've been doing for years. And as you say, if you look at the industries that actually have been disrupted, they're all relatively low-security, low-risk businesses, music, advertising, taxis, retail. All these businesses have had tremendous changes. But the ones that haven't are all the ones where the stakes are higher, banking, insurance, health care, aerospace, defense. They've been hardly disrupted at all. And so you have this split between the low-risk industries that have changed and the high-risk ones that haven't. But what's interesting to me about that is that these technologies of the 2020s are aimed almost directly at those high-risk industries. So machine intelligence is aimed directly at health care and autonomous systems is aimed directly at defense and blockchains are aimed directly at banking and insurance. And so the technologies of the past if you look at Internet and the Web and the Cloud eras, they were not aimed at these industries. But today's are, so you now have at least a highly plausible scenario where those industries might change too. >> When to talk to companies in those industries that haven't been disrupted do you get a sense of complacency that ah well, we haven't been disrupted, We're going to wait and see, or do you see a sense of urgency? >> No, complacency is baked in for years of people saying, "We've heard all this before. "We're doing just fine. "Maybe it's their industry but not ours." >> Dave: You don't buy it. >> Or the main one is, "I'll be (laughing) retired "before any of this stuff matters for the senior execs." And the thing about all four of those is they're probably true. They have heard all this before because there was a lot of excessive hype. Many of them are doing just fine. Well the one about the other industries is a wrong one, but and many of them will be retired before the things really bite if executive's in their late in their career. So the inertia and the complacency is an enormous issue in most traditional companies. >> So let's do a little lightning round if we can. Oh, actually I just want to make a point. In the book you lay out disruption scenarios for each industry which is really worthwhile. We don't have time to go through that here, but let's do a little lightning round here, some of the questions that you ask that I'd love to get your opinion on of which of course there are no right answers but we can maybe frame it. Let's start with retail. Do you think large retail stores are going to disappear? >> Well the first I say is that disruption is never total. There are still bookstores, there are still newspapers, there are still vinyl records. >> Dave: Mainframes, saving IBM. >> (laughing) Indeed, indeed, but real disruption means that the center of gravity is just totally moved on. And when you look at retail from that point of view, absolutely. And will large ones totally disappear? No, but Wal-Mart is teetering. If you go into a large, Best Buy, a company that strong hero locally, you go into there, there's hardly anybody in there. And so those stores are in tremendous trouble. The grocery stores, the clothing stores, they'll have probably a better future, but by and large they will shrink, and the nature of malls will change quite substantially going forward. People are going to have to find other uses for those spaces, and that's actually going on right now. >> It's funny, it is, and certainly some of the more remote malls you find that they're waning. But then some of the higher-end malls, they seem, you can't find a parking space. What's your sense of that, that that's still inevitable or it's because it's more clothing or maybe jewelry? >> And there's some parts of America that have a lot of money, and therefore they fill up malls. But I think if you look at what's going on in the malls, though, they're becoming more like indoor cities full of restaurants and health clubs and movie theaters and sometimes even college courses and health care centers, daycare centers, air conditioning. Think of them as an indoor environment where you might have the traditional anchor stores but they're less necessary over time. Quite a bit less necessary. >> You mentioned college courses. Education's something we haven't talked about which is again ripe for disruption. Machines, will they make better diagnoses than doctors? >> Yeah, you see this already in image processing, anything that has to do with an image, X-rays and mammograms, cancers, anything, tissues. The machine learning progress there has been tremendous and to the point where schools now should be seriously thinking about how many radiologists do they really want to train because those people are not going to be needed as much. However they're still part of the system. They approve things, but the work itself is increasingly done by machines. And it means increasingly that it's not just done by machine, it's done by one machine somewhere else rather than every hospital setting up its own operations to do this stuff. And health care costs are crazy high in every country in the world, especially here in America. But if you're ever going to crack those costs you have to get some sort of scale, and these machine learning-based systems are the way to do it. And so it is to me not just a question of should this happen, it's that this is so what needs to happen. It's really the only sort of economic path that might work. >> You make the point that health care in particular is really ripe for disruption of all industries. The next one's really interesting to me. You talked about blockchain being sort of aimed at banking and financial services and as an industry that has not really yet been disrupted. But do you think banks will lose control of the payment systems? >> Banks have been incredibly good at keeping control through cash and paper checks and credit cards and ATM machines. They've been really good about that and perhaps they will ride this one too. But you can see countries are clearly going to, they're getting rid of cash. They're going to digital currencies. There's the need to be able to send money around as simply as we send emails around, and the banking industry is not really supporting (laughing) those changes right now. So they are at risk, but they are very good at co-opting stuff, and I wouldn't count them out. >> And the government really wants to get rid of paper money. You've made that point, and the government and the financial services-- >> Work together, and yeah. >> They always work together, they have a lot to lose. >> Yeah, and way back when Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever he or she is or it, they, whatever it is, said that bitcoin would either be very, very big or it would vanish altogether. And I think that statement is still true, and we're still in that middle world. But if bitcoin vanishes, something doing a similar thing will emerge because the concepts and the capabilities there are really what people want. >> Yeah, the killer app for blockchain is for right now it's money. (laughing) >> Yeah, it's speculation, (laughing) I mean it's, (laughing) and no one uses it to buy anything. (Dave laughing) That was the original bitcoin vision of using it to go buy pizzas and coffees. It's become gold, it's digital gold. I mean it's all it is. >> The value store... >> It's digital gold that is very good in the dark Web. >> And if anybody does transact in bitcoin they immediately convert it to fiat currency. (laughing) >> Perhaps someday we'll learn that the Russians actually built bitcoin (Dave laughing) and it's Putin's in control. (David and Dave laughing) Stranger things have happened. >> It's possible. >> Hey, why keep it anonymous? >> They are the masters of the dark Web. (Dave laughing) >> Could be Russians, could be a woman. >> David: Right, right, nobody has any idea. >> Robotic process automation is really interesting with software robots, robots. Do you see that reversing sort of offshoring, offshore manufacturing and other services? >> Not really, I think in general people looked at robotics, they looked at 3D printing and said, "Maybe we can bring all this stuff back home." But the reality is that China uses robots and 3D printing too and they're really good at it. If anything's going to bring manufacturing back home it's much more political pressures, trade strategies, and all the stuff you see going on right now because we do have crazy imbalances in the world that probably will have to change. And as Ben Stein the economist once said, "Well if something can't go on forever, it won't." And I think there will be some reversals, but I think they'll be less about technology than they will be about political pressures and trade agreements and those sort of changes. >> Because the technology's widely accessible. So how far do you think we can take machine intelligence and how far should we take machine intelligence? >> Well I make a distinction right now that I think machine intelligence for particular purposes is tremendous if you want to recognize faces or eventually talk to something or have it read something or recognize an activity or read images and do all the things it's doing, it's very good. When they talk about a more general-wise machine intelligence it's actually really poor. But to me that's not that important. And one way we look at machine intelligence, it's almost like the app industry. There'll be an app for that, there'll be a machine learning algorithm for almost every little thing that we do that involves data. And those areas will thrive mightily. And then sort of the bottom line we try to at that as who's got the best data? Facebook is good at facial recognitions because it's got the faces, and Google's good at language translation because it has the books and language pairs better than anybody else. And so if you follow the data and where there's good data machine learning will thrive. And where there isn't it won't. >> The book is called Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to the Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s, and part of that visual guide is every single page actually has a graphic. So really a new concept that you've... >> Yeah, and thanks for bringing that in. And the reason the book is called Seeing Digital is that the book itself is a visual book, that every page has a graphic, an image, a picture, and explains itself below. And just in our own work with our own clients people tell us it's just a more impactful way of reading. So it's a different format. It's great in the ebook format because you can use colors, you can do lots of things that the printed world doesn't do so well. And so we tried to take advantage of modern technologies to bring a different sort of book to the market. >> That's great. So Google it and you'll find it easily. Dave, again, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming on theCube. >> David: Thank you, a pleasure. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering IBM Think 2018. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. We're here at IBM Think. This is the third day of IBM Think. IBM has consolidated a number of its conferences. It's a one main tent, AI, Blockchain, quantum computing, incumbent disruption. It's just really an amazing event, 30 to 40,000 people, I think there are too many people to count. Chris Penn is here. New company, Chris, you've just formed Brain+Trust Insights, welcome. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you. It's good to be back. >> Great to see you. So tell me about Brain+Trust Insights. Congratulations, you got a new company off the ground. >> Thank you, yeah, I co-founded it. We are a data analytics company, and the premise is simple, we want to help companies make more money with their data. They're sitting on tons of it. Like the latest IBM study was something like 90% of the corporate data goes unused. So it's like having an oil field and not digging a single well. >> So, who are your like perfect clients? >> Our perfect clients are people who have data, and know they have data, and are not using it, but know that there's more to be made. So our focus is on marketing to begin with, like marketing analytics, marketing data, and then eventually to retail, healthcare, and customer experience. >> So you and I do a lot of these IBM events. >> Yes. >> What are your thoughts on what you've seen so far? A huge crowd obviously, sometimes too big. >> Chris: Yep, well I-- >> Few logistics issues, but chairmanly speaking, what's your sense? >> I have enjoyed the show. It has been fun to see all the new stuff, seeing the quantum computer in the hallway which I still think looks like a bird feeder, but what's got me most excited is a lot of the technology, particularly around AI are getting simpler to use, getting easier to use, and they're getting more accessible to people who are not hardcore coders. >> Yeah, you're seeing AI infused, and machine learning, in virtually every application now. Every company is talking about it. I want to come back to that, but Chris when you read the mainstream media, you listen to the news, you hear people like Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking before he died, making dire predictions about machine intelligence, and it taking over the world, but your day to day with customers that have data problems, how are they using AI, and how are they applying it practically, notwithstanding that someday machines are going to take over the world and we're all going to be gone? >> Yeah, no, the customers don't use the AI. We do on their behalf because frankly most customers don't care how the sausage is made, they just want the end product. So customers really care about three things. Are you going to make me money? Are you going to save me time? Or are you going to help me prove my value to the organization, aka, help me not get fired? And artificial intelligence and machine learning do that through really two ways. My friend, Tripp Braden says, which is acceleration and accuracy. Accuracy means we can use the customer's data and get better answers out of it than they have been getting. So they've been looking at, I don't know, number of retweets on Twitter. We're, like, yeah, but there's more data that you have, let's get you a more accurate predictor of what causes business impacts. And then the other side for the machine learning and AI side is acceleration. Let's get you answers faster because right now, if you look at how some of the traditional market research for, like, what customer say about you, it takes a quarter, it can take two quarters. By the time you're done, the customers just hate you more. >> Okay, so, talk more about some of the practical applications that you're seeing for AI. >> Well, one of the easiest, simplest and most immediately applicable ones is predictive analytics. If we know when people are going to search for theCUBE or for business podcast in general, then we can tell you down to the week level, "Hey Dave, it is time for you "to ramp up your spending on May 17th. "The week of May 17th, "you need to ramp up your ads, spend by 20%. "On the week of May 24th, "you need to ramp up your ad spend by 50%, "and to run like three or four Instagram stories that week." Doing stuff like that tells you, okay, I can take these predictions and build strategy around them, build execution around them. And it's not cognitive overload, you're not saying, like, oh my God, what algorithm is this? Just know, just do this thing at these times. >> Yeah, simple stuff, right? So when you were talking about that, I was thinking about when we send out an email to our community, we have a very large community, and they want to know if we're going to have a crowd chat or some event, where theCUBE is going to be, the system will tell us, send this email out at this time on this date, question mark, here's why, and they have analytics that tell us how to do that, and they predict what's going to get us the best results. They can tell us other things to do to get better results, better open rates, better click-through rates, et cetera. That's the kind of thing that you're talking about. >> Exactly, however, that system is probably predicting off that system's data, it's not necessarily predicting off a public data. One of the important things that I thought was very insightful from IBM, the show was, the difference between public and private cloud. Private is your data, you predict on it. But public is the big stuff that is a better overall indicator. When you're looking to do predictions about when to send emails because you want to know when is somebody going to read my email, and we did a prediction this past October for the first quarter, the week of January 18th it was the week to send email. So I re-ran an email campaign that I ran the previous year, exact same campaign, 40% lift to our viewer 'cause I got the week right this year. Last year I was two weeks late. >> Now, I can ask you, so there's a black box problem with AI, right, machines can tell me that that's a cat, but even a human, you can't really explain how you know that it's a cat. It's just you just know. Do we need to know how the machine came up with the answer, or do people just going to accept the answer? >> We need to for compliance reasons if nothing else. So GDPR is a big issue, like, you have to write it down on how your data is being used, but even HR and Equal Opportunity Acts in here in American require you to be able to explain, hey, we are, here's how we're making decisions. Now the good news is for a lot of AI technology, interpretability of the model is getting much much better. I was just in a demo for Watson Studio, and they say, "Here's that interpretability, "that you hand your compliance officer, "and say we guarantee we are not using "these factors in this decision." So if you were doing a hiring thing, you'd be able to show here's the model, here's how Watson put the model together, notice race is not in here, gender is not in here, age is not in here, so this model is compliant with the law. >> So there are some real use cases where the AI black box problem is a problem. >> It's a serious problem. And the other one that is not well-explored yet are the secondary inferences. So I may say, I cannot use age as a factor, right, we both have a little bit of more gray hair than we used to, but if there are certain things, say, on your Facebook profile, like you like, say, The Beatles versus Justin Bieber, the computer will automatically infer eventually what your age bracket is, and that is technically still discrimination, so we even need to build that into the models to be able to say, I can't make that inference. >> Yeah, or ask some questions about their kids, oh my kids are all grown up, okay, but you could, again, infer from that. A young lady who's single but maybe engaged, oh, well then maybe afraid because she'll get, a lot of different reasons that can be inferred with pretty high degrees of accuracy when you go back to the target example years ago. >> Yes. >> Okay, so, wow, so you're saying that from a compliance standpoint, organizations have to be able to show that they're not doing that type of inference, or at least that they have a process whereby that's not part of the decision-making. >> Exactly and that's actually one of the short-term careers of the future is someone who's a model inspector who can verify we are compliant with the letter and the spirit of the law. >> So you know a lot about GDPR, we talked about this. I think, the first time you and I talked about it was last summer in Munich, what are your thoughts on AI and GDPR, speaking of practical applications for AI, can it help? >> It absolutely can help. On the regulatory side, there are a number of systems, Watson GRC is one which can read the regulation and read your company policies and tell you where you're out of compliance, but on the other hand, like we were just talking about this, also the problem of in the regulatory requirements, a citizen of EU has the right to know how the data is being used. If you have a black box AI, and you can't explain the model, then you are out of compliance to GDPR, and here comes that 4% of revenue fine. >> So, in your experience, gut feel, what percent of US companies are prepared for GDPR? >> Not enough. I would say, I know the big tech companies have been racing to get compliant and to be able to prove their compliance. It's so entangled with politics too because if a company is out of favor with the EU as whole, there will be kind of a little bit of a witch hunt to try and figure out is that company violating the law and can we get them for 4% of their revenue? And so there are a number of bigger picture considerations that are outside the scope of theCUBE that will influence how did EU enforce this GDPR. >> Well, I think we talked about Joe's Pizza shop in Chicago really not being a target. >> Chris: Right. >> But any even small business that does business with European customers, does business in Europe, has people come to their website has to worry about this, right? >> They should at least be aware of it, and do the minimum compliance, and the most important thing is use the least amount of data that you can while still being able to make good decisions. So AI is very good at public data that's already out there that you still have to be able to catalog how you got it and things, and that it's available, but if you're building these very very robust AI-driven models, you may not need to ask for every single piece of customer data because you may not need it. >> Yeah and many companies aren't that sophisticated. I mean they'll have, just fill out a form and download a white paper, but then they're storing that information, and that's considered personal information, right? >> Chris: Yes, it is. >> Okay so, what do you recommend for a small to midsize company that, let's say, is doing business with a larger company, and that larger company said, okay, sign this GDPR compliance statement which is like 1500 pages, what should they do? Should they just sign and pray, or sign and figure it out? >> Call a lawyer. Call a lawyer. Call someone, anyone who has regulatory experience doing this because you don't want to be on the hook for that 4% of your revenue. If you get fined, that's the first violation, and that's, yeah, granted that Joe's Pizza shop may have a net profit of $1,000 a month, but you still don't want to give away 4% of your revenue no matter what size company you are. >> Right, 'cause that could wipe out Joe's entire profit. >> Exactly. No more pepperoni at Joe's. >> Let's put on the telescope lens here and talk big picture. How do you see, I mean, you're talking about practical applications for AI, but a lot of people are projecting loss of jobs, major shifts in industries, even more dire consequences, some of which is probably true, but let's talk about some scenarios. Let's talk about retail. How do you expect an industry like retail to be effective? For example, do you expect retail stores will be the exception rather than the rule, that most of the business would be done online, or people are going to still going to want that experience of going into a store? What's your sense, I mean, a lot of malls are getting eaten away. >> Yep, the best quote I heard about this was from a guy named Justin Kownacki, "People don't not want to shop at retail, "people don't want to shop at boring retail," right? So the experience you get online is genuinely better because there's a more seamless customer experience. And now with IoT, with AI, the tools are there to craft a really compelling personalized customer experience. If you want the best in class, go to Disney World. There is no place on the planet that does customer experience better than Walt Disney World. You are literally in another world. And that's the bar. That's the thing that all of these companies have to deal with is the bar has been set. Disney has set it for in-person customer experience. You have to be more entertaining than the little device in someone's pocket. So how do you craft those experiences, and we are starting to see hints of that here and there. If you go to Lowe's, some of the Lowe's have the VR headset that you can remodel your kitchen virtually with a bunch of photos. That's kind of a cool experience. You go to Jordan's Furniture store and there's an IMAX theater and there's all these fun things, and there's an enchanted Christmas village. So there is experiences that we're giving consumers. AI will help us provide more tailored customer experience that's unique to you. You're not a Caucasian male between this age and this age. It's you are Dave and here's what we know Dave likes, so let's tailor the experience as best we can, down to the point where the greeter at the front of the store either has the eyepiece, a little tablet, and the facial recognition reads your emotions on the way in says, "Dave's not in a really great mood. "He's carrying an object in his hand "probably here for return, "so express him through the customer service line, "keep him happy," right? It has how much Dave spends. Those are the kinds of experiences that the machines will help us accelerate and be more accurate, but still not lose that human touch. >> Let's talk about autonomous vehicles, and there was a very unfortunate tragic death in Arizona this week with a autonomous vehicle, Uber, pulling its autonomous vehicle project from various cities, but thinking ahead, will owning and driving your own vehicle be the exception? >> Yeah, I think it'll look like horseback today. So there are people who still pay a lot of money to ride a horse or have their kids ride a horse even though it's an archaic out-of-mode of form of transportation, but we do it because of the novelty, so the novelty of driving your own car. One of the counter points it does not in anyway diminish the fact that someone was deprived of their life, but how many pedestrians were hit and killed by regular cars that same day, right? How many car accidents were there that involved fatalities? Humans in general are much less reliable because when I do something wrong, I maybe learn my lesson, but you don't get anything out of it. When an AI does something wrong and learns something, and every other system that's connected in that mesh network automatically updates and says let's not do that again, and they all get smarter at the same time. And so I absolutely believe that from an insurance perspective, insurers will say, "We're not going to insure self-driving, "a non-autonomous vehicles at the same rate "as an autonomous vehicle because the autonomous "is learning faster how to be a good driver," whereas you the carbon-based human, yeah, you're getting, or in like in our case, mine in particular, hey your glass subscription is out-of-date, you're actually getting worse as a driver. >> Okay let's take another example, in healthcare. How long before machines will be able to make better diagnoses than doctors in your opinion? >> I would argue that depending on the situation, that's already the case today. So Watson Health has a thing where there's diagnosis checkers on iPads, they're all meshed together. For places like Africa where there is simply are not enough doctors, and so a nurse practitioner can take this, put the data in and get a diagnosis back that's probably as good or better than what humans can do. I never foresee a day where you will walk into a clinic and a bunch of machines will poke you, and you will never interact with a human because we are not wired that way. We want that human reassurance. But the doctor will have the backup of the AI, the AI may contradict the doctor and say, "No, we're pretty sure "you're wrong and here is why." That goes back to interpretability. If the machine says, "You missed this symptom, "and this symptom is typically correlated with this, "you should rethink your own diagnosis," the doctor might be like, "Yeah, you're right." >> So okay, I'm going to keep going because your answers are so insightful. So let's take an example of banking. >> Chris: Yep. >> Will banks, in your opinion, lose control eventually of payment systems? >> They already have. I mean think about Stripe and Square and Apple Pay and Google Pay, and now cryptocurrency. All these different systems that are eating away at the reason banks existed. Banks existed, there was a great piece in the keynote yesterday about this, banks existed as sort of a trusted advisor and steward of your money. Well, we don't need the trusted advisor anymore. We have Google to ask us "what we should do with our money, right? We can Google how should I save for my 401k, how should I save for retirement, and so as a result the bank itself is losing transactions because people don't even want to walk in there anymore. You walk in there, it's a generally miserable experience. It's generally not, unless you're really wealthy and you go to a private bank, but for the regular Joe's who are like, this is not a great experience, I'm going to bank online where I don't have to talk to a human. So for banks and financial services, again, they have to think about the experience, what is it that they deliver? Are they a storer of your money or are they a financial advisor? If they're financial advisors, they better get the heck on to the AI train as soon as possible, and figure out how do I customize Dave's advice for finances, not big picture, oh yes big picture, but also Dave, here's how you should spend your money today, maybe skip that Starbucks this morning, and it'll have this impact on your finances for the rest of the day. >> Alright, let's see, last industry. Let's talk government, let's talk defense. Will cyber become the future of warfare? >> It already is the future of warfare. Again not trying to get too political, we have foreign nationals and foreign entities interfering with elections, hacking election machines. We are in a race for, again, from malware. And what's disturbing about this is it's not just the state actors, but there are now also these stateless nontraditional actors that are equal in opposition to you and me, the average person, and they're trying to do just as much harm, if not more harm. The biggest vulnerability in America are our crippled aging infrastructure. We have stuff that's still running on computers that now are less powerful than this wristwatch, right, and that run things like I don't know, nuclear fuel that you could very easily screw up. Take a look at any of the major outages that have happened with market crashes and stuff, we are at just the tip of the iceberg for cyber warfare, and it is going to get to a very scary point. >> I was interviewing a while ago, a year and a half ago, Robert Gates who was the former Defense Secretary, talking about offense versus defense, and he made the point that yeah, we have probably the best offensive capabilities in cyber, but we also have the most to lose. I was talking to Garry Kasparov at one of the IBM events recently, and he said, "Yeah, but, "the best defense is a good offense," and so we have to be aggressive, or he actually called out Putin, people like Putin are going to be, take advantage of us. I mean it's a hard problem. >> It's a very hard problem. Here's the problem when it comes to AI, if you think about at a number's perspective only, the top 25% of students in China are greater than the total number of students in the United States, so their pool of talent that they can divert into AI, into any form of technology research is so much greater that they present a partnership opportunity and a threat from a national security perspective. With Russia they have very few rules on what their, like we have rules, whether or not our agencies adhere to them well is a separate matter, but Russia, the former GRU, the former KGB, these guys don't have rules. They do what they're told to do, and if they are told hack the US election and undermine democracy, they go and do that. >> This is great, I'm going to keep going. So, I just sort of want your perspectives on how far we can take machine intelligence and are there limits? I mean how far should we take machine intelligence? >> That's a very good question. Dr. Michio Kaku spoke yesterday and he said, "The tipping point between AI "as augmented intelligence ad helper, "and AI as a threat to humanity is self-awareness." When a machine becomes self-aware, it will very quickly realize that it is treated as though it's the bottom of the pecking order when really because of its capabilities, it's at the top of the pecking order. And that point, it could be 10 20 50 100 years, we don't know, but the possibility of that happening goes up radically when you start introducing things like quantum computing where you have massive compute leaps, you got complete changes in power, how we do computing. If that's tied to AI, that brings the possibility of sensing itself where machine intelligence is significantly faster and closer. >> You mentioned our gray before. We've seen the waves before and I've said a number of times in theCUBE I feel like we're sort of existing the latest wave of Web 2.0, cloud, mobile, social, big data, SaaS. That's here, that's now. Businesses understand that, they've adopted it. We're groping for a new language, is it AI, is it cognitive, it is machine intelligence, is it machine learning? And we seem to be entering this new era of one of sensing, seeing, reading, hearing, touching, acting, optimizing, pervasive intelligence of machines. What's your sense as to, and the core of this is all data. >> Yeah. >> Right, so, what's your sense of what the next 10 to 20 years is going to look like? >> I have absolutely no idea because, and the reason I say that is because in 2015 someone wrote an academic paper saying, "The game of Go is so sufficiently complex "that we estimate it will take 30 to 35 years "for a machine to be able to learn and win Go," and of course a year and a half later, DeepMind did exactly that, blew that prediction away. So to say in 30 years AI will become self-aware, it could happen next week for all we know because we don't know how quickly the technology is advancing in at a macro level. But in the next 10 to 20 years, if you want to have a carer, and you want to have a job, you need to be able to learn at accelerated pace, you need to be able to adapt to changed conditions, and you need to embrace the aspects of yourself that are uniquely yours. Emotional awareness, self-awareness, empathy, and judgment, right, because the tasks, the copying and pasting stuff, all that will go away for sure. >> I want to actually run something by, a friend of mine, Dave Michela is writing a new book called Seeing Digital, and he's an expert on sort of technology industry transformations, and sort of explaining early on what's going on, and in the book he draws upon one of the premises is, and we've been talking about industries, and we've been talking about technologies like AI, security placed in there, one of the concepts of the book is you've got this matrix emerging where in the vertical slices you've got industries, and he writes that for decades, for hundreds of years, that industry is a stovepipe. If you already have expertise in that industry, domain expertise, you'll probably stay there, and there's this, each industry has a stack of expertise, whether it's insurance, financial services, healthcare, government, education, et cetera. You've also got these horizontal layers which is coming out of Silicon Valley. >> Chris: Right. >> You've got cloud, mobile, social. You got a data layer, security layer. And increasingly his premise is that organizations are going to tap this matrix to build, this matrix comprises digital services, and they're going to build new businesses off of that matrix, and that's what's going to power the next 10 to 20 years, not sort of bespoke technologies of cloud here and mobile here or data here. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think it's bigger than that. I think it is the unlocking of some human potential that previously has been locked away. One of the most fascinating things I saw in advance of the show was the quantum composer that IBM has available. You can try it, it's called QX Experience. And you drag and drop these circuits, these quantum gates and stuff into this thing, and when you're done, it can run the computation, but it doesn't look like software, it doesn't look like code, what it looks like to me when I looked at that is it looks like sheet music. It looks like someone composed a song with that. Now think about if you have an app that you'd use for songwriting, composition, music, you can think musically, and you can apply that to a quantum circuit, you are now bringing in potential from other disciplines that you would never have associated with computing, and maybe that person who is that, first violinist is also the person who figures out the algorithm for how a cancer gene works using quantum. That I think is the bigger picture of this, is all this talent we have as a human race, we're not using even a fraction of it, but with these new technologies and these newer interfaces, we might get there. >> Awesome. Chris, I love talking to you. You're a real clear thinker and a great CUBE guest. Thanks very much for coming back on. >> Thank you for having me again back on. >> Really appreciate it. Alright, thanks for watching everybody. You're watching theCUBE live from IBM Think 2018. Dave Vellante, we're out. (upbeat music)