>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hi buddy. We're back. This is the Cube's coverage of H P's discover a big discover event this year, 2022 in Las Vegas. We're at the, what used to be called the sands convention center. Now the Venetian Dave Lotte for John furrier per deep Kumar is here. He is the senior vice president and general manager of HPE E's point next services where the rubber meets the road services is where it's at. That's that's where the value is. <laugh> right. >>It's absolutely >>Great to see you again, man. Thanks for coming on. Okay. >>Welcome John. Hopefully y'all are having a good time. >>Yeah, it's very nice to be. It was always great to be face to face. Right? It's nothing like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we, we slog through two years of virtual and >>It was packed in keynote. Antonio's keynote was jam packed overflow rooms. Yeah. Um, and it was a big room. It wasn't a small room. It was huge. So that's a sign. Yeah. >>People are here good times. Yeah. People love to be here. Yeah. So >>What's the update with, with point next >>It's, uh, lot's happening. Lot's happening, right? Uh, the transformation is underpinned by point next doing the right thing and just, uh, transforming and helping customers to transform themselves as well with the pandemic it just caught on. Right. Everybody wants to do things faster, digitize things faster. And uh, we really bring the technology and the expertise. I think that's this pretty crucial, >>You know, what, what are the, how do you think about success rates with transformations on the one hand? It, it kept the industry going all industries going on the other hand, I feel like a lot of the transformations were rushed. I call it the forced March to digital. Yeah. Yeah. What failures did you see in that? Forced March and, and how are companies course correcting? Yeah, >>Really good question. <laugh> Dave, um, more than half of the transformations fail, right? So there was a BCG study done over 3000 customers over three years around the world. And, um, 57% of the transformations failed. Right. In the sense when somebody start to transform, they, they set it out a set of goals, scope it. This is what it is. They either didn't meet the goal or they spent more money than they should have, or they overshot the timing. Right. Or all of this about, so it's a staggering number, uh, a large piece of them fail. Yeah. Right. So, um, to answer your second question, Dave, so what are we finding out? Why are they failing and what are they, how are they course-correcting I think there's sort of, you know, we speak to customers all the time. So we get an idea of, you know, what's working and what's not working and there's sort of three things that keep on coming up. >>Right. One is, uh, senior management, CEO, CIO, commitment to the north star. Yeah. Right. Hey, are we tied in, are we doing this? The second thing is the, um, the alignment between it and the business and the functions. Right. If you don't agree on the goal set, if you don't agree on the timeline, uh, then it just, you know, don't work. <laugh> the third is expertise. The people underestimate the expertise. You need the discipline, you need to get stuff done. Right. And so these are the three and none of them are technology related. Yeah. I mean, you're heard they're all people related stuff. >>Right. But di I want to get your thoughts on this is a really important point. I love that commentary because what we're seeing as well is that with COVID now we're kind of third year post COVID, if you will. Yeah. I was just getting out of COVID. It caught a lot of people flatfooted. So people who were on a digital transformation either got stuck and fell down or failed, or they had a tailwind going into it and had momentum. They had alignment and they were filling gaps. They kind of crossed over at the right point and could succeed during the pandemic. But many people failed. Yeah. Because they didn't prepare, they didn't have the technology. They had too many gaps. They had antiquated old stuff. What have you learned? Because this is now ignited the services business because no one wants to have that happen again. Yeah. Can you share your experiences with that? With the customers that are going through that learning pain? What are their core issues? Some projects got doubled down on some got killed. Hey, we don't need that anymore. So what, what are the learnings? Well, tell, share us your perspective, cuz this is important. >>Yeah. So people want to do transformation, right? Absolutely. Because it's a must with COVID faster, quickly you want to get, but they also have to run the business because otherwise you don't have the EPS to support the transformation. Right. So it's, it's transform and perform. So we call it within HP perform while you transform and people who got that balance right. Created that flywheel, John >>Don't run outta gas in other words, translation. >><laugh> exactly. So second thing is, so you have a set of people, you have expertise and COVID you started losing people. Great resignation. You heard everything. Then you are trying to balance your people between, do you put them on transformation or do you put them on operating this stuff? This is where companies then now are realizing, Hey, if I put my best guys on transformation, I need to make sure this operations work well. So people are coming to us and saying, Hey, could you operate this one? Well, right. I mean, today we had somebody on stage, in low medical. Right. They, um, they got a ransomware hit and they had been using us, um, to do all the operations. And when hit hit, we were like switched on. They're like, I mean, on stage they're like you guys were golden, took care of the situation. So if you didn't have any extra help of some expertise, then you are really suffering. Right? >>Yeah. We heard this too. From partners we heard during the pandemic, a lot of the partners stepped up the channel and ISV partners. Yeah. Because they could. Yeah. And that was another key point. Yeah. It all comes together. I love to perform and transform Dave, cuz this is about running the business. Cuz you have cyber security as a serious problem right now. Yeah. That's also part of the transformation. Yeah. Where's the overlap. What are the areas that you're seeing, where you gotta operate and transform? Where's the hot zone. So to speak with customers, is it cyber? Is it, is it, uh, data, data? >>I would say clearly data is number one, right? In anything. Now data, data modernization is the key. Otherwise you are not changing your company the way you do things. So we just announced four real big stuff, addressing, uh, data migration. Right. Um, one of the problems so people have is quality of data. Quality of data is not good. They exist in silos. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's not in a platform form where you can really take the data, get the insights and use it for your future. Right. I mean that's a key problem, right? Yeah. So you, you hire a few data scientists. They come in, they're doing, they're spending the time on housekeeping data rather than actually doing data science, >>Data engineering, not just wrangling, it's a lot of engineering going on. >>Absolutely. Okay. >>Absolutely. So that's a well known problem. Uh, but as you said before that it's not really a technology problem. I think it's an organizational issue and part of the problem. And I wonder if you're seeing this within your customer base, is this idea that we're gonna try to put everything into some kind of central repository. Yeah. And then we're gonna create a hyper specialized team. That is the goal between the data that you need <laugh> and the insights, right? Yeah. To get the insights. And we're seeing this dispersion of the expertise, which put, putting more responsibility into the line of business, a new data architecture, new organizational thinking. Are you seeing that? Are there particular industries where that's happening more, more quickly where the context which LA is lacking in the centralized team is actually going out to the lines of business where the data quality will be inherently improved. >>Yeah. I think it's like implementing ERP systems. I mean, people who try to create massive data lakes, I don't think it's going to work. Right. Because it's like, nobody has the time to wait for three years until you have structured data in a particular way. The other thing is some of the data companies were take people like that who came in are no more because things are changing at a rapid pace. So anything if you're doing, that's taking too long to get your act together, the market has moved on. You may not be even in that business. So what people are doing Dave is sort of microservices, they're cutting it into pieces and saying, let me get the best, vast, quick, and make it work. And then creating the fly wheel of changing other things that are priority for their. >>So they're getting tactical with their absolutely >>Getting >>Quick wins. Absolutely >>Inviting >>Off smaller. >>Well that's the data. The data thing is, is a cyber problem too. Cuz data is helping cyber, but machine learning feeds off data. Yes. So if you have gaps or blind spots, machine learning isn't as good. So machine learning is only as good in the eye is only as good as the data. Yeah. It can see. Yeah. >>Yeah. >>So that's means it's gotta be fast available, not siloed. So, but you, so this is a balance. What do I silo and protect for compliance. Yeah. And what can I address quickly? Low latency. >>Yeah. If I may add John, the other thing is because there's so many passwords used in the industry. Right. Um, and AIML is one of those, right? So everybody then businesses pick up an area for AI and ML. They do a little pilot, they do a POC and it works well and they're extremely happy <laugh> and then they try to scale it across the whole enterprise. Yeah. And it's a complete failure because most of the time it doesn't work. Right. >>But your data lake comment actually translates over your point there because you can spend, I had a quote on the last event I went to, the quote was we spend all of our time trying to figure out what the latest open source machine learning is. That's a full-time job. So the data lake is heavy lift. Just understand what's going on there. Tracking machine learning yeah. Is a full time job even and changes. >>Absolutely. So >>The change, what does that mean to the customer? That managed services are gonna be part of it? How do the customers tame that moving train that's happening around these really important areas? >>Yeah. So, um, I think, um, customers do need help. So I think they need to be open to ideas of, okay, what is the expertise we need for where we want to get to? And some may be available inside some, they need to go for help outside. I mean, that's a reality, right? So you need to open your eyes and say, I've got, let me put my best people, maybe on transformation. Let me take the people with some expertise, knowledge on different things, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and shortsighted companies. What they do is John, they just automate what's their current. And that's not a transformation in the end, you look back and say, >>That's incremental. >>You didn't achieve anything. Right. Because you haven't transformed your processes. You haven't chained the theme, you just automated what the garbage and garbage out. It's the, the same crap that comes out. So >>How much of the work that point next does is, um, I'll, I'll say, you know, consultative in terms of be being that change agent. Right? Cause again, we back think about data. Yeah. A lot of it is, is thinking about the organization. Yeah. Decentralizing, you know, making that decision, uh, thinking in different terms, around data products, um, having the lines of business, maybe take more responsibility for, and, and those are internal decisions. Yeah. And they have customers have, certainly have a lot of expertise around, but they sometimes need a change agent. Do you play that role? Is that a, a GSI that plays that role? >>Yeah. So, uh, it's a mixed bag. Uh, we play the role in some places and then, uh, some SIS would also play, play that role. Okay. Um, more of the point next is if, if you take a customer engagement advisory, professional services, then actually maintaining their landscape and then manage services, which again, sort of you monitor, but you also provide some info on how to manage it. Right. In those three pieces, Dave, the top piece and the bottom piece are the big pieces. Customers want expertise on the middle piece is getting automated because systems are getting smarter. They are self-healing. And in the middle piece, what people want is knowledge. So say for example, you have an enterprise it's not working well. They want it knowledge up front, tell me where it's broken or what do we need to do? And that's it. Right. Um, and they want to fix it themselves. It's just like consumer. Right. So, um, that's the way it's working. >>So the reason I ask that is we we're having a data discussion here. Yeah. And, and I think that a big role that you can play in the data transformation is to provide self-service infrastructure. Yes. Uh, right where the, the technical pieces or an operational detail. Absolutely. Okay. And then the, the second is that you just touched on it is, is, is automated, automated governance and security. So that when I share data, I know that it's going to the right place. That individual has the proper access to it. So those are two sort of white spaces I think. And a lot of organizations where they need help big >>Wide spaces >>Actually. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that, that middle please is a complete cloud experience. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Everything is going to be digitalized. Everything's going to be automated. And um, so you know, people can use it any way they want, >>Do you see hybrid as a steady state? I mean, know, we gotta wrap up. We don't a lot of time left. Yeah. The real quick hybrid we've been saying here in the cube, it's it's gonna be a steady state for a long, long >>Time. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it would be, you know, OnPrem off Preem multi-cloud but it's going to be hybrid world >><laugh> all right. Hybrid world. >>Thank you so much. Hybrid >>Cube cube hybrid cube >>Was great to have you on you're so articulate and, and it's just wonderful to see you. Thanks. Thanks. >>Thank you. Thanks Dave. >>Thank you, John. And thank you for watching John furry, Dave Valante, we'll be back with the cubes coverage of HPE. Discover 2022 in Las Vegas. Right after this short break we're live.

>>Welcoming into the cubes presentation of AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. This is season two episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Today's episode. One of season two theme is open source community and the open cloud innovations. I'm your host, John farrier of the cube. And today we're excited to be joined by Loris Dajani who is the C T O chief technology officer and founder of cystic found that in his backyard with some wine and beer. Great to see you. We're here to talk about Falco finding cloud threats in real time. Thank you for joining us, Laura. Thanks. Good to see you >>Love that your company was founded in your backyard. Classic startup story. You have been growing very, very fast. And the key point of the showcase is to talk about the startups that are making a difference and, and that are winning and doing well. You guys have done extremely well with your business. Congratulations, but thank you. The big theme is security and as organizations have moved their business critical applications to the cloud, the attackers have followed. This is Billy important in the industry. You guys are in the middle of this. What's your view on this? What's your take? What's your reaction? >>Yeah. As we, as a end ecosystem are moving to the cloud as more and more, we are developing cloud native applications. We relying on CACD. We are relying on orchestrations in containers. Security is becoming more and more important. And I would say more and more complex. I mean, we're reading every day in the news about attacks about data leaks and so on. There's rarely a day when there's nothing major happening and that we can see the press from this point of view. And definitely things are evolving. Things are changing in the cloud. In for example, Cisco just released a cloud native security and usage report a few days ago. And the mundane things that we found among our user base, for example, 60, 66% of containers are running as rude. So still many organizations adopting a relatively relaxed way to deploy their applications. Not because they like doing it, but because it tends to be, you know, easier and a little bit with a little bit less ration. >>We also found that that 27% of users unnecessary route access in the 73% of the cloud accounts, public has three buckets. This is all stuff that is all good, but can generate consequences when you make a mistake, like typically, you know, your data leaks, no, because of super sophisticated attacks, but because somebody in your organization forgets maybe some data on it on a public history bucket, or because some credentials that are not restrictive enough, maybe are leaked to another team member or, or, or a Gita, you know, repository or something like that. So is infrastructures and the software becomes a let's a more sophisticated and more automated. There's also at the same time, more risks and opportunities for misconfigurations that then tend to be, you know, very often the sewers of, of issues in the cloud. >>Yeah, those self-inflicted wounds definitely come up. We've seen people leaving S3 buckets open, you know, it's user error, but, you know, w w those are small little things that get taken care of pretty quickly. That's just hygiene. It's just discipline. You know, most of the sophisticated enterprises are moving way past that, but now they're adopting more cloud native, right. And as they get into the critical apps, securing them has been challenging. We've talked to many CEOs and CSOs, and they say that to us. Yeah. It's very challenging, but we're on it. I have to ask you, what should people worry about when secure in the cloud, because they know is challenging, then they'll have the opportunity on the other side, what are they worried about? What do you see people scared of or addressing, or what should I be worried about when securing the cloud? >>Yeah, definitely. Sometimes when I'm talking about the security, I like to compare, you know, the old data center in that the old monolithic applications to a castle, you know, in middle aged castle. So what, what did you do to protect your castle? You used to build very thick walls around it, and then a small entrance and be very careful about the entrance, you know, protect the entrance very well. So what we used to doing that, that data center was protect everything, you know, the, the whole perimeter in a very aggressive way with firewalls and making sure that there was only a very narrow entrance to our data center. And, you know, as much as possible, like active security there, like firewalls or this kind of stuff. Now we're in the cloud. Now, it's everything. Everything is much more diffused, right? Our users, our customers are coming from all over the planet, every country, every geography, every time, but also our internal team is coming from everywhere because they're all accessing a cloud environment. >>You know, they often from home for different offices, again, from every different geography, every different country. So in this configuration, the metaphor data that they like to use is an amusement park, right? You have a big area with many important things inside in the users and operators that are coming from different dangerous is that you cannot really block, you know, you need to let everything come in and in operate together in these kinds of environment, the traditional protection is not really effective. It's overwhelming. And it doesn't really serve the purpose that we need. We cannot build a giant water under our amusement park. We need people to come in. So what we're finding is that understanding, getting visibility and doing, if you Rheodyne is much more important. So it's more like we need to replace the big walls with a granular network of security cameras that allow us to see what's happening in the, in the different areas of our amusement park. And we need to be able to do that in a way that is real time and allows us to react in a smart way as things happen because in the modern world of cloud five minutes of delay in understanding that something is wrong, mean that you're ready being, you know, attacked and your data's already being >>Well. I also love the analogy of the amusement park. And of course, certain rides, you need to be a certain height to ride the rollercoaster that I guess, that's it credentials or security credentials, as we say, but in all seriousness, the perimeter is dead. We all know that also moats were relied upon as well in the old days, you know, you secure the firewall, nothing comes in, goes out, and then once you're in, you don't know what's going on. Now that's flipped. There's no walls, there's no moats everyone's in. And so you're saying this kind of security camera kind of model is key. So again, this topic here is securing real time. Yeah. How do you do that? Because it's happening so fast. It's moving. There's a lot of movement. It's not at rest there's data moving around fast. What's the secret sauce to making real identifying real-time threats in an enterprise. >>Yeah. And in, in our opinion, there are some key ingredients. One is a granularity, right? You cannot really understand the threats in your amusement park. If you're just watching these from, from a satellite picture. So you need to be there. You need to be granular. You need to be located in the, in the areas where stuff happens. This means, for example, in, in security for the clowning in runtime, security is important to whoever your sensors that are distributed, that are able to observe every single end point. Not only that, but you also need to look at the infrastructure, right? From this point of view, cloud providers like Amazon, for example, offer nice facilities. Like for example, there's CloudTrail in AWS that collects in a nice opinionated consistent way, the data that is coming from multiple cloud services. So it's important from one point of view, to go deep into, into the endpoint, into the processes, into what's executing, but also collect his information like the cultural information and being able to correlate it to there's no full security without covering all of the basics. >>So a security is a matter of both granularity and being able to go deep and understanding what every single item does, but also being able to go abroad and collect the right data, the right data sources and correlated. And then the real time is really critical. So decisions need to be taken as the data comes in. So the streaming nature of security engines is becoming more and more important. So the step one of course, security, especially cost security, posture management was very much let's ball. Once in a while, let's, let's involve the API and see what's happening. This is still important. Of course, you know, you need to have the basics covered, but more and more, the paradigm needs to change to, okay, the data is coming in second by second, instead of asking for the data manually, once in a while, second by second, there's the moment it arrives. You need to be able to detect, correlate, take decisions. And so, you know, machine learning is very important. Automation is very important. The rules that are coming from the community on a daily basis are, are very important. >>Let me ask you a question, cause I love this topic because it's a data problem at the same time. There's some network action going on. I love this idea of no perimeter. You're going to be monitoring anything, but there's been trade offs in the past, overhead involved, whether you're monitoring or putting probes in the network or the different, there's all kinds of different approaches. How does the new technology with cloud and machine learning change the dynamics of the kinds of approaches? Because it's kind of not old tech, but you the same similar concepts to network management, other things, what what's going on now that's different and what makes this possible today? >>Yeah, I think from the friction point of view, which is one very important topic here. So this needs to be deployed efficiently and easily in this transparency, transparent as possible, everywhere, everywhere to avoid blind spots and making sure that everything is scheduled in front. His point of view, it's very important to integrate with the orchestration is very important to make use of all of the facilities that Amazon provides in the it's very important to have a system that is deployed automatically and not manually. That is in particular, the only to avoid blind spots because it's manual deployment is employed. Somebody would forget, you know, to deploy where somewhere where it's important. And then from the performance point of view, very much, for example, with Falco, you know, our open source front-end security engine, we really took key design decisions at the beginning to make sure that the engine would be able to support in Paris, millions of events per second, with minimal overhead. >>You know, they're barely measure measurable overhead. When you want to design something like that, you know, that you need to accept some kind of trade-offs. You need to know that you need to maybe limit a little bit this expressiveness, you know, or what can be done, but ease of deployment and performance were more important goals here. And you know, it's not uncommon for us is Dave to have users of Farco or commercial customers that they have tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of machines. You know, I said two machines and sometimes millions of containers. And in these environments, lightweight is key. You want death, but you want overhead to be really meaningful and >>Okay, so a amusement park, a lot of diverse applications. So integration, I get that orchestration brings back the Kubernetes angle a little bit and Falco and per overhead and performance cloud scale. So all these things are working in favor. If I get that right, is that, am I getting that right? You get the cloud scale, you get the integration and open. >>Yeah, exactly. Any like ingredients over SEP, you know, and that, and with these ingredients, it's possible to bake a, a recipe to, to have a plate better, can be more usable, more effective and more efficient. That may be the place that we're doing in the previous direction. >>Oh, so I've got to ask you about Falco because it's come up a lot. We talked about it on our cube conversations already on the internet. Check that out. And a great conversation there. You guys have close to 40 million plus million downloads of, of this. You have also 80 was far gate integration, so six, some significant traction. What does this mean? I mean, what is it telling us? Why is this successful? What are people doing with Falco? I see this as a leading indicator, and I know you guys were sponsoring the project, so congratulations and propelled your business, but there's something going on here. What does this as a leading indicator of? >>Yeah. And for, for the audience, Falco is the runtime security tool of the cloud native generation such. And so when we, the Falco, we were inspired by previous generation, for example, network intrusion detection, system tools, and a post protection tools and so on. But we created essentially a unique tool that would really be designed for the modern paradigm of containers, cloud CIC, and salt and Falco essentially is able to collect a bunch of brainer information from your applications that are running in the cloud and is a religion that is based on policies that are driven by the community, essentially that allow you to detect misconfigurations attacks and normals conditions in your cloud, in your cloud applications. Recently, we announced that the extension of Falco to support a cloud infrastructure and time security by parsing cloud logs, like cloud trail and so on. So now Falba can be used at the same time to protect the workloads that are running in virtual machines or containers. >>And also the cloud infrastructure to give the audience a couple of examples, focused, able to detect if somebody is running a shelf in a radius container, or if somebody is downloading a sensitive by, from an S3 bucket, all of these in real time with Falco, we decided to go really with CR study. This is Degas was one of the team members that started it, but we decided to go to the community right away, because this is one other ingredient. We are talking about the ingredients before, and there's not a successful modern security tool without being able to leverage the community and empower the community to contribute to it, to use it, to validate and so on. And that's also why we contributed Falco to the cloud native computing foundation. So that Falco is a CNCF tool and is blessed by many organizations. We are also partnering with many companies, including Amazon. Last year, we released that far gate support for Falco. And that was done is a project that was done in cooperation with Amazon, so that we could have strong runtime security for the containers that are running in. >>Well, I've got to say, first of all, congratulations. And I think that's a bold move to donate or not donate contribute to the open source community because you're enabling a lot of people to do great things. And some people might be scared. They think they might be foreclosing and beneficial in the future, but in the reality, that is the new business model open source. So I think that's worth calling out and congratulations. This is the new commercial open source paradigm. And it kind of leads into my last question, which is why is security well-positioned to benefit from open source besides the fact that the new model of getting people enabled and getting scale and getting standards like you're doing, makes everybody win. And again, that's a community model. That's not a proprietary approach. So again, source again, big part of this. Why was security benefit from opensource? >>I am a strong believer. I mean, we are in a better, we could say we are in a war, right? The good guys versus the bad guys. The internet is full of bad guys. And these bad guys are coordinated, are motivated, are sometimes we'll find it. And we'll equip. We win only if we fight this war as a community. So the old paradigm of vendors building their own Eva towers, you know, their own self-contained ecosystems and that the us as users as, as, as customers, every many different, you know, environments that don't communicate with each other, just doesn't take advantage of our capabilities. Our strength is as a community. So we are much stronger against the big guys and we have a much better chance doing when this war, if we adopt a paradigm that allows us to work together. Think only about for example, I don't know, companies any to train, you know, the workforce on the security best practices on the security tools. >>It's much better to standardize on something, build the stack that is accepted by everybody and tell it can focus on learning the stack and becoming a master of the steak rounded rather than every single organization naming the different tool. And, and then B it's very hard to attract talent and to have the right, you know, people that can help you with, with your issues in, in, in, in, in, with your goals. So the future of security is going to be open source. I'm a strong believer in that, and we'll see more and more examples like Falco of initiatives that really start with, with the community and for the community. >>Like we always say an open, open winds, always turn the lights on, put the code out there. And I think, I think the community model is winning. Congratulations, Loris Dajani CTO and founder of SIS dig congratulatory success. And thank you for coming on the cube for the ADB startup showcase open cloud innovations. Thanks for coming on. Okay. Is the cube stay with us all day long every day with the cube, check us out the cube.net. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, or is modernized now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >>I asked you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some, you know, some of your comments, you gotta be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile edge. It, that those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >>Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that, uh, so far, uh, it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where, uh, the tipping point and the tipping point has been, uh, uh, more because of COVID and there COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living, uh, in a sort of, uh, occasionally connected manner where our digital, uh, interactions, precede our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than, uh, in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact that has really been the, uh, sort of accelerant to this modernized. Now, as a team in this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. >>They're all sitting behind. Uh, they used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, uh, but they are all centralized still. Uh, but where our engagement happens with the data is, uh, at the edge, uh, at your point of convenience at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, uh, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? Uh, but it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be where you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you are sitting, uh, doing something in your body or traveling, or whether you are in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you, uh, and be available as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. >>And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think, uh, when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, uh, transitioning their old applications to, uh, the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Uh, otherwise people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, uh, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem is actually, the data is not where you are engaging with. It has got to be fetched, you know, seven seas away. Um, and that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >>I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this, because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but w w but distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, uh, of, uh, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? Yes. >>So there are two issues that you're a little too over there with Forrest is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is, uh, like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data in one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, uh, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. >>Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five minutes. Again, this is a, there's a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to, uh, sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do a solid, uh, acquire. These are classic sequel queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional sequel. The sequel has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and try to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only sequel as which stood the test of time of 40 odd years. >>Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is, uh, basically, uh, look at the data and any common tutorial, uh, any, uh, any which way you look at the data. All it will come, uh, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries, select star from where Canada stuff, because it's at an English level, it becomes easy to, so the same data, you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your, uh, sort of transformation of the data and all this stuff. Same day that you do this. >>Now, that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, but Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the ability to query the operational data in a different way. I'll talk budding. What was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. >>So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and find different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, uh, the database management system. And that's where the distributed, uh, platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in a classic way, we call it CDN in the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, uh, uh, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >>The first part of the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without skiing with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >>Uh, fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read things. So because there is no schema, it is just a on document that is sitting inside. And Jason is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Jason that we manage, you can do key lookups of the Jason. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and the other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. >>You can do searching on it, using the, um, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc wedding on the analytic side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using our eventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Jason. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing, uh, in the last 40 years because we developed various, uh, database systems and data processing systems of various points. In time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. >>We had queuing systems, all the systems, if you want to use any one of them, our answer has always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this is not one to fly instead, bring the logic to the data. So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this, >>As you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >>Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data casting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably flooded, but it not really, uh, how do you say, um, keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I need, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it, and you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, um, like we were discussing, you have acid semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, uh, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but they have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >>So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged, uh, databases. Um, you kind of led Couchbase through that. I want to, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, we have a little teeny scissors and a knife. That's not that sharp. How do you respond to that? Uh, >>A great one. Um, my answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, but is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? No. No. Nobody does that because it's actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Like as in a moment, it could be a Tom, Tom telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. >>Third one, it's a fantastic phone. Uh, four, it's a beautiful camera, which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment is a video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just taught that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, they missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app is the economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get the alert saying that today you got to leave home at eight 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. >>And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's gone there's notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place without that, you couldn't even do this simple function, uh, in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build, because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, um, integrating data from one system to the other. >>So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I w I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? And so, so, but, but is there, is that a fair, where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting >>Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of the music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they haven't, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. >>Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file mess of your, uh, I mean, you don't experience the super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where, uh, the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist, but even there that has got to be very closed. Um, how do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that, oh, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car and walk into my living room, that's same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >>I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Twitter, et cetera. And we'd to play around with, we take off the big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. Um, now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi. >>I believe so. Uh, because I think, uh, what had happened was the relational systems. Uh, I've been where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years, and then gain this no sequel movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhibited, uh, uh, because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee, they required your DBA and your data architect. And you have to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was the world of blogs and tweets and, uh, you know, um, mashups and, um, uh, uh, a different generation of digital behavior, digital, native people now, um, who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. >>We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, um, in the other, the other side of the divide. So all came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually, the problem was never sequel. No sequel was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations, and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like, uh, airplanes, which is that if, uh, San Francisco Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set in from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the alarm to somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. >>These are called vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world, uh, is make the system how it is only scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guests. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this year is that, and we have super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have ID only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. >>You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multi-dimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it quite. So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because you would say that I cannot run this analytical Barre because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my friend, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. We will solve the same data in which you can do analytical buddy, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we fence the, the, the resources, so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or equity. >>And then yet you can run this analytical body, which will take a couple of minutes to run one, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the, part of the, um, uh, problems that we have solved here is that relational versus, uh, uh, the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same quality language on top. Y it's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, uh, the internal combustion engine, uh, I think gas, uh, you says, these are the issues we really wanted to solve. Um, so solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, or that are for your shifters. >>Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So, uh, even when you feed people the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blue harder to go fast and lean back for, for it to, you know, uh, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define, uh, design software. Instead, we should be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, uh, and the gas bottle and the, um, and the gear shifter is by putting cul back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved, uh, the relational, uh, uh, limitations of schema, as well as scalability. >>So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic acid capabilities, which is what relational systems, uh, we accounted on and being able to do that with the sequel programming language, we call it like multi-state SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up the salt in the modern times, but rather than get, um, sort of pedantic about whether it's, we have no SQL or sequel or new sequel, or, uh, you know, any of that sort of, uh, jargon, oriented debate, uh, this, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, uh, and they were the solve and they have solved them with, uh, the latest release of $7, which we released a few months ago. >>Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got to leave it there. I, I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face to face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >>Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the Aboriginal Dan was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. Thank you. >>Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by >>Welcome to the cubes coverage of UI path forward for live from Las Vegas. We're here at the Bellagio. Lisa Martin, with Dave a long time, very excited to have in-person events back ish. I'll say we're going to be talking about automation as a boardroom imperative. We have two guests joining us here, James Matras here consulting principal. America's intelligent automation leader at UI and Irv. Dennis retired EA partner, and former CFO of HUD gentlemen. Welcome to the program. Exciting topic automation as a boardroom imperative, James says COO and start with you. How do you discuss the value of automation as being a key component and driver of transformation? >>That's a great question. I think what we've seen in the last couple of years is the evolution of what automation used to be. Two is going nine. And we've seen the shift from what we call generation one, which is very RPA centric type automation to more generation two, which is the combined integration of multiple technologies. It can target an intern process and it's quite important that you understand the pivotal shift because it's not enabling us to move from a task micro top agenda to a macro agenda actually impacts an organization at a strategic level. The ability to be able to look at processes more deeply to automate them in an end to end process collectively and use these different technologies in a synergistic manner truly becomes powerful because it shifts the narrative from a micro process agenda into more systemic area. >>So gen zero is an Emmanuel gen one is RPA point tools that individual maybe getting their personal productivity out. And then now you're saying gen three is across the enterprise. Where are we in terms of, you know, take your experience from your practical experience? Where do you think the world is? It's like probably between zero and one still. Right. But the advanced folks of thinking about gen three, w what's your, >>Yeah, it's a great question. And, um, when you and I, I can do the comparison being private and public sector on this because I was 37 years with E Y then went into retirement and CFL at HUD CFO. Ed was, was a HUD was nowhere. They had to just do all the intelligence digitalization, um, throughout, uh, from scratch. The private sector is probably five or six years ahead of them. But when you think about James talks about the gen one, two and three, the private sector is probably somewhere between two and three. And I know we're talking about the board in this conversation. Um, boards probably have one and two on their radar. Some boards may have three, some may not, but that's where the real strategic focus for boards needs to be is looking forward and, and getting ahead. But I think from a public sector standpoint, lot to go private sector, more to go as well. But, uh, there's a, there's a bit of a gap, but the public sector is probably only about three or four years behind the private sector >>To be okay. Let's look at the numbers, look at, look at the progress for the quarter. And now it's like discussion on cyber discussion on digital discussion on automated issue. It really changed the narrative over the last decade. >>Yeah, I think when you think of boards today, the lots of conversation on cyber that that conversation has been around for a while. A lot of conversation on ESG today, that conversation is getting, getting very popular. But I think when you think of next three, a Jen talks that bear James talks about, um, that's got to start elevating itself if it's not within the boardroom right now, because that will be the future of the company. And the way I think of it from a board's conversation is if a company doesn't think of themselves as a technology company in all aspects, no matter what you do, you are a technology company or you need to be. And if you're not thinking along that way, you're gonna, you're gonna lose market share and you're going to start falling behind your competitors. >>Well, and how much acceleration did the pandemic bring to just that organizations that weren't digital forward last year are probably gone? >>I think it certainly has shifted quite a lot. There's been a drive, the relevance of technology and hard plays for us in the modern workforce in the modern workplace has fundamentally changed the pandemic. We reimagine how we do things. Technology has progressed in itself significantly, and that made a big difference for, for all the environments as a result of that. So certainly is one of the byproducts of the pandemic has been certainly a good thing for everybody. >>Where does automation fit in the board? Virginia? You've got compensation committee. You've probably, I mean, there's somebody in charge of cyber. You got ESG now there's automation part of a broader digital agenda. Where's what's the right word. >>You know, I, I would personally put it in a enterprise risk management from a standpoint that if you're not focused on it, it's going to be a risk to the enterprise. And, um, when you think of automation and intelligent automation and RPA, uh, I think boards have a pretty good sense of how you interface with your customers and your vendors. I think a big push ought to be looking internally at your own infrastructure. You know, what are you, what are you doing in the HR space? What are you doing in a financial statement, close process? What are you doing your procurement process? I suspect there's still a lot of very routine transactions and processing within those, that infrastructure that if you just apply some RPA artificial intelligence, that data extraction techniques, you can probably eliminate a lot of man hours from the routine stuff. And, and the many man hours is probably not the right way to think of it. You could elevate people's work from being pushing numbers around to being data analyzers. And that's where the excitement is for people to see. >>It's not how it's viewed at organizations. We're not eliminating hours. Well focusing folks on much more strategic down at a test. >>Yes. I would say that that's exactly right now in the private sector, you're always going to have the efficiency play and profitability. So there will be an element of that. I know when at HUD we're, we're focused, we were not focused on eliminating hours because we needed people and we focused on creating efficiencies within the space and having people convert from, again, being Trent routine transactions, to being data analyzers and made the jobs, I'm sure. Fund for them as well. I mean, this is a lot of fun stuff. And, and if, uh, uh, companies need to be pushing this down through their entire infrastructure, not just dealing with our customers and the third parties that they deal with >>Catalyst or have been public sector. So you mentioned they may be five or six years behind, but I've seen certain public sector organizations really lean in, they learn from, from the private sector. And then even when you think about some of the military, how advanced they are absolutely. You know, the private could learn from them and if they could open it up. But >>So, yeah, I think that's, that's well said I was in this, you know, the that's the civilian part with, with the housing and urban development. I think the catalyst is, uh, bringing the expertise in, uh, I know when I, when I came, I went to HUD to elevate their financial infrastructure. It was, it was probably the worst of the cabinet agency. The financials were a mess. There was no, there was a, uh, there was not a clean audit opinion for eight years. And I was there to fix that and we fixed it through digitalization and digital transformation, as well as a financial transformation. The catalyst is just creating the education, letting people know what is, what, what technology can do. You don't have to be a programmer, but it's like driving a car. Anybody can drive a car, but we can't mechanic, you know, work as a mechanic on it. >>So I think it's creating education, letting people know what it can do. And at HUD, for example, we did a very simple, I was telling James earlier, we did a very simple RPA project on an, an, a financial statement, close process. It was 2,600 hours, six months. Once we implemented the RPA, brought that down to 70 hours, two weeks, people's eyes exploded with it. And then all of a sudden, I said, I want everyone to go back and come back with, with any manual process, any routine process that can convert to an RPA. And I got a list of a hundred, then it came then became trying to slow everything down. We're not going to do it overnight. Yeah, exactly. >>So, but it was self-funding. It was >>Self-funded. Yes. >>And, and how do you take that message to customers that it could be self-funding how how's that resonating >>Very well. And I think it was important. I always like to say, it's a point of differentiation because you look at, uh, mentioned earlier that organizations are basically technology companies. That's what they are. But now if you look across that we no longer compete at the ERP level without got SAP, Oracle, it's not a point of differentiation. We don't compete the application layer where they've got service. Now, black line, how we use them is helpful. We competed the digital layer and with automation is a major component of that. That's where your differentiation takes place. Now, if you have a point of differentiation, that is self-funding, it fundamentally changes the game. And that's why it's so important for boards to understand this, because that risk management, if you've not doing it, somebody is getting ahead of the game much faster than you are. >>Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned ERP and it, and it triggered something in my mind. Cause I, I said this 10 years ago about data. If in the nineties, you, you couldn't have picked SAP necessarily as the winner of ERP. But if you could have picked the companies that were using ERP could have made a lot of money in the stock market because they outperform their peers. And the same thing was true with data. And I think the same thing is going to be true with automation in the coming decade. >>Couldn't agree more. And I think that's exactly the point that differential acceleration happening this. And it's harder because of the Europeans. Once you knew what it was, you can put the boundaries on it. Digital, the options are infinite. It's just continuous progress as are from there. >>I've got a question for you. You talked about some great stats about how dramatically faster things were took far less time. How does that help from an adoption perspective? I know how much cultural change is very difficult for folks in any organization, but that sort of self-serving how does that help fuel adoption? >>Well, it's interesting. Um, it's, it is a, we're actually going to talk about this tomorrow. It is a framework and it's got to start at the leadership has got to start with governance. It's got to start with a detailed plan. That's executable. And it's got to start with getting buy-in from not only your, the, the organization, but the people you're dealing with outside the organization. Um, it's, it's, uh, I think that's absolutely critical. And when you bring this back to the boardroom, they are the leaders of the companies. And, and I, James, I talked about this as we're getting ready for tomorrow's session. I think the number one thing a board can do today is an own personal self assessment. Do they understand automation? Do they understand what next generation three is? Do they understand what the different components can do? And do they understand how the companies are implementing it? And if I was a board member, uh, on our boards, I say, we need to understand that or else this is nothing's going to happen. We're going to be here at the reliance of the CEO and the CFO strategy, which may or may not include or be thinking about this next three. So leadership at the top is going to drive this. And it's so critical. >>We were talking about catalyst before. And you mentioned education and expertise. I'm always curious as to what drew you to public sector because it's, yeah, I mean, very successful, you know, you're, you're with one of the global SIS directly, you can make a lot more money and that side. So what was it did, was it a desire to it's a great country? Was it >>Take one for the team and I'm going to do a selfish plug here. I just actually wrote a book in this whole thing called transforming a federal agency. What's the name of the book transforming and federal agency. And it's, uh, I spent my time at E Y for 37 years, fully retired. I wanted to give back and do meaningful work. And we lived in Columbus, Ohio, as I was talking about earlier, I was going to go teach and I got a call from the president's personnel office to see if I wanted to come. And these, the CFO at HUD with secretary Carson and change turn the agency around, uh, that took me a little while to say yes, because I wasn't sure I wanted something full time. It was a, it was in DC. So I'd be in a commuting role back and forth. My family's in Columbus. >>Um, but it was, uh, I did it and I loved it. It was, uh, I would pray, I would ask anyone that's has the ability to go into public service at any point in their career to do it. It's it was very rewarding. It was one of my favorite three years of life. And to your point, I didn't have to do it, but, uh, if I wanted to do something and give back and that met the criteria and we were very successful in turning it around with the digital transformation and a lot of stuff that we're talking about today gave me the ability to talk about it because I helped lead it >>For sharing that and did it. So did it start with the CFO's office? Because the first time I ever even heard about our RPO RPA was at a CFO conference and I started talking to him like, oh, this is going to be game changing. Is that where it started? Is that where it lands today? >>From an infrastructure standpoint, the CFO has the wonderful ability to see most processes within a company and its entire lifestyle from beginning to end. So CFO has that visibility to understand where efficiencies can happen in the process. And so the CFO plays a dramatically important role in this. And you think about a CFO's role today versus 20 years ago, it's no longer this, the bean counter rolling up numbers that become a business advisors to the board, to the CEO and to the executive suite. Um, so the CFO, I think has probably the best visibility of all the processes on a global basis. And they can see where the, the efficiencies and the implementation of automation can happen. >>So they can be catalysts and really fueling the actual >>Redesign of work. Yes, they, they, they probably need to be the catalyst. And as a board member, you want to be asking what is the CFO's strategic imperative for the next year? And if it doesn't include this, it's just got to get on the agenda. >>Well, curve ball here is his CFO question and you know, three years or two years ago, you wouldn't have even thought, I mean, let me set it up better. One of the industries that is highly automated is crypto. Yeah. You wouldn't even thought about crypto in your balance sheet a couple of years ago, but I'm not sure it's a widespread board level discussion, but as a CFO, what do you make of the trend to put Bitcoin on balance sheets? >>Yeah, I'm probably not the right person to ask because I'm a conservative guy. >>If somebody supported me and he said, Hey, why don't we put crypto on the balance sheet? >>I would get much more educated. I wouldn't shut it down. I would put it into, let's get more educated. Let's get the experts in here. Let's understand what's really happening with it. Let's understand what the risks are, what the rewards are. And can we absorb any sort of risk or reward with it? And when you say put it on the balance sheet, you can put it on in a small way to test it out. I wouldn't put the whole, I wouldn't make the whole balance sheet for Dell on day one. So that's why I would think about it. Just tell, tell me more, get me educated. How did you think about it? How can it help our business? How can I help our shareholders? How does it grow the bottom line? And then, then you start making decisions. >>Cause CFOs, let me find nature often conservative and most CFOs that I talked to just say no way, not a chance, but you're, maybe you're not as conservative as you think. Well, >>No, but I will never say go away on anything. I mean, cause I want to learn. I want to know. I mean, um, if you like all this stuff, that's new, it's easy to say go away, right? Yeah. But all of a sudden, three years later, the go away, all your competitors are doing it at a competitive advantage. So never say go away, get yourself educated before you jump into it. >>That's good advice. Yeah. In any walk of life question for you, or have you talked about the education aspect there? I'm curious from a risk mitigation perspective, especially given the last 18, 19 months, so tumultuous, so scary for all those organizations that were very digital, they're either gone or they accelerated very quickly. How much of an education do you have to provide certain industries? And are you seeing certain industries? I think healthcare manufacturing, financial services as being leaders in the uptake? >>Well, I think the financial service industries, for sure, they, they, they get this and then they need to, uh, cause they, you know, they're, they're a transaction and based, uh, industry. Uh, so they get it completely. Um, you know, I think maybe some manufacturing distribution, some of the old line businesses are, you know, they may not be thinking of this as progressively as they should. Um, but they'll get there. They're going to have to get there eventually. Um, you know, when you think about the education, my, I thought you were gonna ask a question about the education of the workforce. And I think as a board member, I would be really focused on, uh, how am I educating my workforce of the future? And do I have the workforce of the future today? Do I have to educate them to have to bring in hiring for it? Do I have to bring third-party service providers to get us there? So as a board member really focus on, do I have the right workforce to get us to this next stage? And if not, what do I need to do to get there? Because >>We'll allocate a percentage of their budgets to training and education. And the question is where do they put it >>In? Is it the right training and education, right? >>Where do they focus though? Right now we hear you iPad talking about they're a horizontal play, but James, when you and Lisa, we were asking about industry, when you go to market, are you, are you more focused on verticals? Are you thinking, >>No, it's on two things. So which often find is regardless of the sector with some nuanced variation, the back office functions are regionally the procure to pay process as the same fundamentals, regardless of the sector where the differentiation comes in at a sector of service is when you start going to the middle of the front office, I mean a mining has only one customer. They sold their product to image the retailer has an endless number of them. So when you get to the middle and front office and really start engaging with a customer and external vendors, then a differentiation is very unique and you'd have a lot of sort of customers having sector specific nuances and variations in how you use the platform. And that's where the shift now is happening as well is the back office functions that are largely driven by the CFO. If now getting good, robust value out of it, there's pivot to make it a differentiator in the market, comes in the front and middle office. And that's where we starting to say, sector specific genres solutions, nuances really come to the fall >>Deep industry expertise. Do you think digital at all changes that the reason I ask it because I see Amazon as a retail and then they're in cloud and they're in grocery other in content Apple's in, in financial services and you're seeing these internet giants with a dual agenda, they're disrupting horizontal technology and then there's disruptive industries. And my premise is it's because of data and digital. Do you ever see that industry specialization changing that value chain >>Without a doubt? And I think it's happens initially. It starts off. When people have started looking at the process, they realize there's such key dependencies on the upstream and downstream components of the value chain that they want to control it. So they actually start bridging out of what the core practices or the core business to own a broader agenda. And with digital, you can do it. You can actively interact more systemically that installs triggering, well, maybe I have a different product offering. Maybe I can own this. Could I monetize the information I had at my disposal today in a completely new line. And that really what gets truly innovative and starts creating a revenue increase as opposed as the cost saving. And that's what they're really going after. It's how do I, >>The vertical integration is not new. The plenty of ended up Koch industries, Tyson foods, but now it's digital. So presumably you can do it faster with greater greater scale >>Without a doubt. And you don't have to move your big ERP and things like that. Cause that's the only way it takes five years to move my technology backbone with digital. I can do the interaction tomorrow and we can build up enough to be able to sustain that in the short term. >>Right. And speaking of speed, unfortunately, guys, we are out of time, but thank you. Fantastic conversation automation as a board imperative guys, that's been great James or >>Thank you for your time. Thank you so much >>For Dave a long day. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the queue. We are live in Las Vegas at the Bellagio at UI path forward for stick around Dave and I will be right back. Okay.

>> Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, is modernize now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi mayor him, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >> Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >> I want to ask you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some of your comments, you got to be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile, edge. Those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >> Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that so far it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where that tipping point and that tipping point has been more because of COVID and there are COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living in a in a sort of occasionally connected manner where our digital interactions precede, our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact. That does really been the sort of accelerant to this modernize Now, as a team. In this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. They're all sitting behind. They used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, but they are all centralized still, but where our engagement happens with the data is at the edge at your point of convenience, at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? But it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be there, if you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you're sitting, but doing something in your while you're traveling, or whether you're in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you and be available, as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, transitioning their old applications to the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Otherwise, people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem was actually, the data is not where you are engaging with it. It's got to be fetched, you know, seven sea's away. And that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >> I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but with the distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, of, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? >> Yes. So there are two issues that you alluded little too over there. The first is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data. In one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five milliseconds, this is, this is a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do solid queries. Our classic SQL queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional SQL. The SQL has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and tried to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only SQL has stood the test of time of 40 odd years. Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is basically a look at the data and any common editorial, any, any which way you look at the data, all it will come, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries select star from where, kind of stuff, because it's at an English level becomes easy to so the same day that you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your sort of transformation of the data and all the stuff, same day that you do this. Now that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, what Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the, your ability to query the operational data in a different way. And talk querying, what was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and apply different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, the database management system. And that's where the distributed platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in the classic way we call it CDN'ing the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >> And on the first part of, of the, the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without scheme with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >> Fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read thing. So, because there is no schema, it is just a Json document that is sitting inside. And Json is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Json that we manage, you can do key value look ups of the Json. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. You can do searching on it, using the, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc webbing on the analytics side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using or inventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Json. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, bring, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing in the last 40 years, because we developed various database systems and data processing systems at various points in time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. We had queuing systems, all these systems, if you want to use any one of them are answered. It always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this, it's not going to fly instead, bring the logic to the data, right? So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this. >> But as you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >> Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data recasting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at, at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably related, but it not really, how do you say keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I mean, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it. And you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, like we were discussing, you have ACID semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but we have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >> So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged databases. You kind of led Couchbase through that. I, I want, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, and it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, where you have have a little teeny scissors and a knife, that's not that sharp. How, how do you respond to that? >> A great one. My answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, and is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? - No. No. >> Nobody does. That because it actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Right? As in a moment, it could be a TomTom, telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. Third one. It's a fantastic phone. Four. It's a beautiful camera which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment, it's the video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just thought that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, he missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app based economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get an alert saying that today you got to leave home at >> 8: 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's got this notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place. Without that, you couldn't even do this simple function in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build. Because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, integrating data from one system to the other. >> So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? So, so, but, but is there, is that a fair and where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting. >> Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's like, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of my music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they, I mean, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file-ness of your, I mean, your experience super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist. But even there that has got to be very closed. How do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that all, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car, walk into my living room, that same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a connected world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >> I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Tweeter, et cetera. And we used to play around with three, take home, big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. And now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi? >> I believe so, because I think what had happened was relational systems. I've mean where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years and then gain this no SQL movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhabited because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee. They required your DBA and your data architect. And you had to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was a world of blogs and tweets and, you know, mashups and a different generation of digital behavior, There are digital, native people now who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, in the other, the other side of the divide. So out came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually the problem was never SQL. No SQL was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like airplanes, which is that if a San Francisco, Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the allowance that you'll somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. These are all vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world is make the system horizontally scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guest. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this here is that, and we are super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have, I need only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multidimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it, right? So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that architecture important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because, you would say that I cannot run this analytical query because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my front end, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. They'll solve the same data once again, do analytical query, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we, we fence the, the, the resources so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or a query. And then yet you can run this analytical query, which will take a couple of minutes to them. One, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the part of the problems that we have solved it here is that relational versus the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same query language on top. Why? It's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, the internal combustion engine the gas, you says, these were the issues we really wanted to solve. So solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, over there your gear shifters. Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So even when you feed people, the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blow harder to go fast. And they lean back for, for it to, you know, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define design software. Instead, we shouldn't be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, and the gas pedal and the, and the gear shifters by putting SQL back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved the relational limitations of schema, as well as scalability. So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic ACID capabilities, which is what relational systems we accounted on, and being able to do that with the SQL programming language, we call it like multi-statement SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up to solve in the modern times, rather than get sort of pedantic about whether it's we have no SQL or SQL or new SQL, or, you know, any of that sort of jargon oriented debate. This is, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, and they were the solve, and they have solved them with the latest release of 7.0, which we released a few months ago. >> Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got got to leave it there. I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face-to-face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >> Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the opportunity I was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. - Thank you. >> Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

(gentle music) >> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman. And this is a special CUBE conversation. We've been talking a lot, of course for many years about the ascendancy of cloud. And today in 2020, multicloud is a big piece of the discussion. And we're really happy to help unveil coming out of stealth Alkira, which is helping the networking challenges when it comes to multicloud and I have the two co-founders, they are brothers. I have Amir, who is the CEO and Atif, who is the CTO, the Khan brothers, thank you so much for joining us, and congratulation on the launch of the company. >> Thank you Stu for having us on the Show. It's a pleasure to see you again. >> All right, so Amir, we've had you on the program. Your previous company that you've done was of course Viptela, the two of you have worked together at, I believe, five companies, a successful companies. Acquired the most recent one into Cisco. So, Amir, obviously, strong networking team, your brother, the CTO is going to talk to us about the engineering but give us just the story of Alkira, what you've been building and now ready to unveil to the world. >> Certainly, Stu, so when around 2018 timeframe, we started looking into the next big problem to solve in the industry, which was not only a substantial from the market size perspective, but also from the customers perspective was solving a major pain point. So when we started looking into the cloud customers and started talking to our customers, they were struggling from the cloud networking perspective, even in a single cloud, and it was a new environment for them and they had to understand all the nitty gritty details of each one of these clouds and when you go to multicloud environment, it becomes exponentially complicated to address not only connectivity, but how to deploy services like firewall and other services, including load balancers and IP address management, et cetera, and remote access. So we started digging deeper into this problem and started working with the customers and took a clean sheet of paper and came up with a very comprehensive approach to offering a solution which is as-a Service. This time, we are not shipping any hardware software it is just like any other SaaS application, you just come to our portal just drag and drop, literally draw out your network and click on provision. And come back after 40 minutes or so your whole global cloud infrastructure is up and running. >> All right, Atif your brother laid out a pretty broad vision there, any of us from the networking world, we know there's a lot of complexity there. And therefore it takes a lot of work, when I want to do things simply, as-a Service is a huge growth area bring us inside the engineering challenges that you and the team have been working on to build this solution. >> Certainly, Stu, so we've been working both Amir and myself in the networking industry for more than 25 years now. And the way we have worked and what we have believed in is that we need to solve customer problems. We never believe in doing a science project. So here also we started working with customers as we have always done in the past. We understood the customers pain points, the challenges they were facing, especially in this case and in cloud networking space, multicloud networking space, based on the user requirements, users, or the customers use cases, we started building our service. And here what we have built as a complete network as-a Service. It's a multicloud network as-a service, which not only provides connectivity to multiple clouds, but also addresses the needs for bringing in networking services, as well as security services, making sure that you have a full policy based infrastructure on top of it, you have deep visibility into the clouds as well as into on-premise end to end visibility, end to end monitoring, troubleshooting. And all of it is delivered to you as-a service. So that's what we have been doing here at Alkira. >> Excellent! So when we've looked at multicloud, of course, every cloud, they have some similar things, they have some different things. They all tend to do things a little bit differently. One of the secret sauces that have been talked about for the last few years is the SD-WAN space, like you had built with the tele to help really enable those environments. So Atif we've got a diagram here, which I think will help explain a little bit as to where out here and how it plugs into these different environments, walk us through a little bit what we're seeing here, and what you're actually doing at Alkira. >> So here we are building a global unified, multicloud network. It's consumed as a service. Think of it as consuming it just like you would consume any other SaaS, like our SaaS application. So you come to Alkira's portal, you register. And then there you go, and you start building your global multicloud unified network with integrated services. So here what you see is a Alkira's cloud services exchange which comprises of the cloud exchange points. You can bring these up these cloud exchange points up anywhere on the globe. You can decide like what networking services security services you need in these cloud exchange points, you can connect to multiple clouds. From there, you can bring your existing on-prem connectivity into the CXPs. All these CXPs have a full mesh of overlay, high speed, low latency connectivity among each other. So there is a full network which comes up between these CXPs. And the whole infrastructure scales with customers as our customers scale. So it's a horizontally scalable, very highly redundant and resilient infrastructure, which we had built. >> All right, so, Amir now that we understand the basics of the technology, you've got some strong investors including Sequoia, Kleiner Perkins, give us what is being announced that you're coming out of stealth, where are you with the product? How many employees you have? And where are you with the discussion of customer adoption. >> So Stu we are obviously, bringing this to the market, and we will be announcing it on April 15. It's available for the customers to consume our solution as a service on that day. So they are welcome to reach out to us and we'll be happy to help them. And as a matter of fact, just come to our website and register for the service. And yeah, I mean you rightly said that we have a superstar team of not only the venture capital companies, but also the board members representing those companies, the Bill Coffin and Mamun Ahmed, who the leading VCs are on the board of our company, including myself and Atif. >> All right, Amir I'd love to actually bring up the second slide that we have here. Walk us through you said the service, how do people get started? How do they understand, walk us through what they do. >> So the biggest challenge when we started looking into these problems, Stu was that it was very complicated. You had to piecemeal bring up instances in the cloud and stitch them together. And when you try to integrate the services, that was a different challenge for the customers. So we want to make sure that it was so simple and clean, that the customer didn't even have to think about any underlying construct on any of the clouds, they should not have to worry about learning each individual part from the networking perspective. So here's your portal, you just come, step one is come to our portal register. Step two is you start drawing your network based on your intent, what on-prem connectivity you want to bring into this service, what type of services you need, like a lot of firewalls and then what pilots you need to connect and everything happens seamlessly, from on-prem, prem through services into the cloud, across multiple clouds. It's a seamless service that we have created and with full analytics capabilities and full governance built in. >> All right, so Atif bring us into what this means for customers, how do they manage it? Is this the networking team? Is it the cloud architects? What API's are there? How does this fit into kind of what customers are doing today? And solve some of those challenges that we laid out earlier in the discussion. >> Yes, from the customer's perspective, as I said, it's completely delivered as a service. Customers come to our portal, they draw out the network, they select the services, they click on provision and the whole network comes up within minutes. So the main thing here is that from a customer's point of view, if they are connecting to different clouds, they don't need to understand any of the underlying specifics or underlying constructs of any of the cloud in order to bring up connectivity. So what we are doing here is we are abstracting the cloud chair. So we are building a virtual cloud network. So if you think of, if you compare with what we did in the previous life, we virtualized the WAN. So here what we are doing is we are virtualizing the cloud network, so underlying doesn't matter which cloud you sit on which cloud you need to connect to, which networking services, whether a cloud native services or whether you want to consume Alkira services, or we also support like customer bringing in third party services as well. So it's all offered from our platform all offered is service to the customer. Again, no expertise required in any of the underlying networking constructs of any of these clouds. >> Give us what we should be looking at from a technology roadmap from Alkira, through the rest of 2020. >> Good question, Stu. So as I mentioned earlier, our roadmap is dictated by customer requirements, so we prioritize what customers need from us. So we have come out with a scalable platform, we have come out with a marketplace for networking services in there. In the near term, we'll be expanding our marketplace with more services. We will be addressing more use cases and when I talk about use cases, I can give you some examples. Like there's, you not just only need connectivity into cloud, you might have different requirements from throughput perspective or bandwidth perspective or different services that you need to contend your cloud when you may have certain applications such as Internet facing application where you need like traffic coming in from the internet, inbound to those applications, you might need services like a load balancer, like an external load balancer in our services exchange. You might also need like a firewall, you might need traffic engineering, or sorry, service chaining capabilities where you chain service through multiple traffic through multiple of these services like a firewall and a load balancer. So we built a platform which gives you all those capabilities going forward, we will be adding more services more use cases to it. We have a long ways ahead of us and we will be putting a lot of effort in delivering a roadmap as we go. >> All right, so Amir your technical team definitely has their hands full and robust roadmap to work on. Give us the high level, what we should be looking for Alkira, for people that are out there, multicloud and networking tends to get talked a lot. There's many big companies and small ones. What will separate Alkira from the rest of the market today? And what should we be looking to see the company's progression through 2020? >> Yeah, thanks for asking that. Yeah, certainly. I mean, from the solution perspective, Atif said that it's so fundamentally important to have a very strong basis. And that's what we have done. We are bringing out a certain number of services and now we will continue to grow on that we'll create a big marketplace. We will continue to improve on which clouds we connect to and how and we will building our own services in certain cases as well. Now, building a technology is just one piece of it, we have to go out to market with a company that the customers can trust every single department in that company, whether it's sales or how they do business with us all the business back end pieces, after we sorted out and that's what we've been working with. And then go to market partners, that is very, very important, support is very important. So let me spend a little bit of time on go to market strategy. We have been working with the service providers so that we can extend our reach not only to the large customers, but also to mid-size customers across the globe. So you will see us in the future announcing major service provider, partnerships, as well as we've been working with large SIS, WAAS and system integration partners. And also we have taking a slightly different approach this time because it's a service. So we are going with telecom master agents, which have been working with the service providers, the cloud providers, the cable providers, as a channel, and they have a huge reach into the customer base. So we have a very comprehensive strategy not only from the go to market perspective and the technology perspective, but also how we are going to support our customers and continue to build our relationship to build a lasting company. >> Yeah, Amir super important point there. Absolutely, we've seen the maturation and change in the service providers, as today they are working with many of the public cloud providers and they're, as you said, the close touch point and a trusted partner for customers. All right, so before I let you go, you two are brothers, everybody in today's day and age is spending even more time with family but your situation you've worked together for a long time. What keeps bringing the two of you together, working together and talk about that bond? >> So I mean we're a very close knit family, we have four brothers and one sister, and obviously Atif and I have been the closest because we have been working together for the longest, we've at least work in five different companies together, our families traveled together, we have three daughters each, we live about five minutes, walk from each other. And we just have this bond where we not only have the family close, but also very close knit friends circle, which we both hang out with, and we obviously have common interests in the sports as well. We play squash and tennis and workout. So Atif if you want to take a stab at that also. >> Yeah, so we've always been very close. In fact, we've been together for the last like, ever since I can remember like even college days, we were roommates for some time also, we have our circle of friends, is the same old source. So, again, we are very close. And we worked well together so we complement each other's skills. And it's worked out in the past. Hopefully it will work out again. And I look forward to working with them for many, many more years to come. >> Amir and Atif thank you so much for sharing the coming out of stealth. After all, Alkira we definitely look forward to watching your progress and seeing how you're helping customers in this multicloud world. Thank you for joining us. >> Stu thank you so much. >> Thank you for having us. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you so much for watching this special CUBE conversation on theCUBE. (gentle music)

>>LA Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>It is so good to have you here on the cube. Once again as we kick off our coverage here live in Las Vegas at AWS, reinvent 2019 along with my a trusty sidekick, Justin Warren, John Walls here. I can't believe they put us back together again so I can't, I feel like I need a cake that actually I would be the trustee sidekick because you know he carries the water and I can wear this band. Andy Miller is going to wear the expert hat in this interview. He's the director of global public cloud at Sofo. So then you're good to see you. Thanks for joining us here on the cube. >>Thank you. It's great to be here. We're excited to be part of re-invent as a, I think this is our eighth year in a row of being part of the show and excited to be here on the cube. I uh, come bearing a couple of gifts. >>Do this every time I visited on the queue here. What do we have here at Sophos? Socks for ya. Soft Sofo songs. I love that look. That's very nice. Yeah. It's something we came up with a few years ago as part of the promotion for SIS admins day and it was so popular, it's never gone away after you're fired. You're hearing the cloud security, the security for the feet. Yes. Is what we have here. So, so your, your security, right. And it's all about the cloud these days. You just came out fairly recently with a, uh, a 2020 threat report. So once you give us kind of the high level and then we'll dig down a little deeper into that, but maybe the key takeaways from that report. >>Yeah, we, uh, we looked at a lot of different things, uh, in the threat report basically. Um, we do this every year, kind of look at trends in what we're seeing and so forth. And we saw a lot of interesting developments around ransomware, both in the cloud and in an on prem environments. But in the cloud, what we really saw was, you know, a continuation of the prevalence of, uh, the bad guys going after those assets, right? They know that there are some very large companies moving some very important data sets into the cloud and as such, they want to make sure that they can get at them as quickly as possible. So we see a very, uh, very, uh, prevalent and constant attack against, uh, those particular assets looking for data that they can steal. It seems that the, the bad act is here I just becoming more sophisticated every day and that they understand how to do cloud infrastructure really quite well. >>Are there specific things that are special to the cloud that are different from what you would have with an onsite environment that requires a different approach? Yeah, certainly when you move to the cloud, one of the things that's really important, and there was a talk about this in the keynote this morning, it's important to this idea of transformation rather than just transition. And the same is true with your security. You should use solutions that are specifically addressed and built for the cloud and that have very tight with a provider like AWS for instance. So it's important that those products integrate with the tools that are available to you through the provider as well as are again, specifically built for those solutions and can scale and move and so forth at the speed of the cloud. >>That seems like a no brainer, right? I mean that seems logical, but you're saying that that's not automatic, that there are those who are trying to cut on retrofit, if you will, a solutions that they've employed before that didn't go to work. >>Yeah. You know, for customers it's a challenge because oftentimes their journey to the cloud starts with a Andy Jassy referred to it today as toe dipping, and that is a very common way that people start in the cloud. And when you start out anything where you're just kind of dipping your toe in the water and then it gets a little further in and a little further in, that's an entire entirely different experience. Then we're not in the cloud and we're going to plan and plan our journey and go into the cloud. With a plan in place, you tend to evolve as you go. The other thing for customers is they may have security technologies that they've used for a long time that they're comfortable with and we all want to maintain a level of comfort, right? And so there are a lot of times you'll see them trying to see old a square peg round hole analogy, right? Trying to bang those technologies into the cloud even though they may not work really well for cloud deployment. >>Yeah, I mean it's a hard problem as well because security is such a difficult thing to solve. Even just all inside that if you add in the newness of cloud on top of that and then have to change the way that you address security, that that just adds a whole bunch of extra complexity into that. So what are some of the things that sofa is doing to help customers as they transition from, this is how you've done stuff in the past. This is how you're going to have to do things in the cloud. How are you helping customers to actually learn about what they need to do as they start to experiment with the way that they're using the cloud? >>Yeah. One of the first things, you know, we have a product that we introduced in April called Sophos cloud optics and one of the biggest challenges for customers as they move to cloud is maintaining visibility and control over their workloads. Uh, cloud deployments are very different in that a lot of times you have a development community that may not be as wired as tight with wired is tight with security as you'd like. And a lot of different people who are having input into deployments and changes to workloads. That's a different scenario a lot of times than on-prem. And so it creates situations where you may have new workloads introduced to the cloud or changes to workloads that happen on a constant and continuous basis. And customers need to be able to track that. And that's what Sophos cloud optics was designed to do, was to give them an idea of exactly what they will have running in the cloud at any time. And also what state of configuration that particular asset happens to be. >>I don't, I know one trend is actually tried to move that it's called shift left, which is to provide that visibility up, the stack of it towards the developers so that they can actually respond to what's happening in production or just to understand the security environment a bit better and then push that model, enable them to be able to make good and, and that stuff security being the, you know, the division of no way. You can't do anything at all, which business doesn't lie. The whole point of going to cloud is we want to go faster. We want to be able to do this with a more agile fashion. So it sounds like this is actually just providing that, that intelligence so that you can make those better decisions. >>Absolutely. In fact, a big part of the product is our infrastructures, a code scanning, uh, where we can scan a formation templates. Actually in the repositories before they're published and let the developers know, Hey, okay, you made some great changes to that, to that infrastructure. But in the process of doing that, you actually configure this out of out of the, uh, out of, uh, compliance with the policy that we have internally. So you need to make this change before you ever do it and really make that actually part of the dev ops loop so that, like you say, the department of no doesn't have to be, you know, big brother or daddy coming over the top and, and hammering on them, but instead making it part of their workflow and, um, and really buying, bringing them and buying them into the security process rather than just, you know, coming along behind. >>Yeah. I mean, this is on a bigger picture level. Um, there is some owners on the customer still, right? I mean, like, they can't just look at Sofo say, please take care of all my concerns and all my problems and, and button me up and let me focus. There is still some burden on their backs. Right. >>Absolutely. And, and, or ignore the provider. Right. And so it's, it's been an interesting journey. Um, when we first moved our, uh, our central platform and built our central platform into the cloud, um, in AWS cloud, there was a lot of resistance. I am not going to move security into cloud. This was a number of years ago. And now people sort of inherently trust cloud maybe a little too much in that they don't realize that while the AWS platform is very secure, what you put into the cloud is your responsibility and you need to apply all the controls that you would on prem to those workloads. And customers I think sometimes are a little bit confused about where does their responsibility lie versus what the vendor takes. And in this case, AWS takes care of, um, and what they need, what part they need to play in that. >>Yeah. And in their defense, some of the tools in cloud have kind of not really been there, but we had the announcement this morning where a Amazon announced all this S three access points. Yup. Which provides a, a bit of a, a better control mechanism for controlling S three bucket access, which is notorious for people leaving, you know, open buckets just sitting there on the internet and someone comes along and they suddenly, they have all of your data and that's, it's really easy with cloud to do that. Uh, so it's good to see those sorts of developments come along and, and we're, we're seeing more tooling being provided to customers that then helps them to make that kind of decision. That way they can take more responsibility. Otherwise it's like, well, you know, you want me to take more responsibility, but I, I kind of, how do I do it? >>Yeah, yeah. And, and it's important for us as well, and this is one of the things we, uh, we integrate with a number of services and you'll hear it first here on the cube. We're gonna announce a little later today. Um, some new additions to the optics platform, including integrations with things like Amazon detective. We have some new integrations in the AWS platform with our UTM offering as well. Um, so we continue to add those in, use those tools because essentially things like integrating with the, um, with the identity access management solution that Amazon's just announced that gives us information that we can use to populate along with all the other data that we gather in order to help keep customers secure. But we're really glad to see the, the, the new offering around S three buckets. Cause obviously that is a, uh, that is a very low hanging fruit for us. As you might say, it's not really difficult to detect, but it's been a huge problem for customers cause it's so easy to make that change to that control and cause a lot of damage with just a very small change that a perfectly well-meaning employee made and, and just made a mistake. So why, why is optics >>spend the home run for you? I mean, what, what, what gap did it feel? What service did it provide that, that um, I mean I know you always hope what you, >>we're all at works, but this has been, like I said, it's been a home, huh? Yeah. I, I think the biggest thing has been really helping customers to get their arms around what their cloud deployment looks like and what state it's in. So, you know, one of the things I frequently would, uh, would talk to customers when we first came out with the product was I would say, take out your cloud bill and if you can tell me every workload that is running on that cloud bell and who owns it and who's responsible for maintaining the security port or a profile of that, then we have nothing more to talk about. But the reality was, no one could. My own team, when we first got the optics product, we have our own really a playground environment for our security architects on our team to try out different things in AWS and so forth. We didn't even know everything that was running in the cloud belly. It turned out that we actually found some things that were running that were workloads that were fired up by employees that hadn't been with the company for two or more years and didn't even realize it and traced it back and were able to get rid of those and, and you know, essentially create a situation where we obviously spend less, but also that we don't have assets running that we're not aware of. Which is obviously a glaring hole for someone to take advantage of. >>Yeah, I mean there's lots of technology and advances coming out and there's a particularly advances in machine learning, for example, that that has a lot of promise for doing this, but yet a lot of the solution is security. It does seem to be just doing the basics and that just for a bit of discipline from customers, are they a customers really prepared to have that level of discipline and and take that responsibility to just do the hard work? >>I think to varying degrees. I think one of the things is you want to make it as easy for customers as humanly possible. You do not want to interrupt their flow of business for sure, but you also want to, you know, you want to make it so that they can implement the security controls that they need without as much with as little effort as humanly possible. And that's always been a big mantra for Sophos. We security made simple has been our, our tagline for, I dunno, four or five years and it's always been a guiding principle of the company because we feel like, you know, complex security is security that won't be implemented and not on a continuous basis for sure. We let off with ransomware and, and kind of left from there. I just want to get back to that if we can to close up. >>Is it, um, are there unique aspects to it in a cloud environment that, that create different kinds of complexity? So obviously this is not a new phenomenon, it's been around, right? But, but going into the shared source, the shared resource of what kind of difficulties does that bring and then what are you seeing that unique that you think you've really got are gonna need to ramp up your game to attack down the road? So I think there were some new, there were some new, uh, some changes to how people go about ransomware that are not unique to the cloud, that are the same across what is probably unique to the cloud is the prevalence at which people are constantly, the bad actors are constantly scanning it. So you talked earlier about, uh, their sophistication, their level of automation frankly is impressive. So we deployed earlier this year, we deployed in a a steady, uh, 10 workloads around the world. >>And in 10 different of AWS is most popular data centers. And what we found is, is I believe the first, uh, attempt to compromise happen in 52 seconds. The longest one was about 15 minutes. And then even more scary than that was the fact that once a, a server was, uh, discovered on the cloud, there was an on average and attempt every 13 seconds to compromise that it ended up totaling over 5 million in a 30 day period on 10 workloads. So the bad guys are out there, they're busy, they have an impressive level level of automation and a, I think they realize that the cloud is as good at target as any, but certainly going out at hard hardcore for sure. For sure. Well, Andy, thanks for the time. Uh, good to see you. And uh, more importantly, thanks for the socks now, right? Yes, exactly. Some more for the rest of the week. Let me know. We'll do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Back with more coverage here live where AWS reinvent 20, 19, and you're watching this here on the queue.

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. Hello everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. I am your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co host Stu Miniman. >>We are joined by Dave Totton. He is the CTO U S partner ecosystem at Microsoft. Thank you so much for coming on the course. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So this is an incredible show. 26,000 people. We are here at the cube in the middle of the show floor. Yeah, high energy. Yeah. We're going to talk about what you do at Microsoft, but first I just want your impressions of this show in particular is incredible. I was saying as I, as I just walked in at first off 26,000 people, I think I shook 10,000 hands already. It's pretty amazing. I'll say two things. One, the partnerships and the and the groups and the companies that are building on Microsoft technology. If you just look around this room, it increasingly gets bigger. They had to take over to new halls this year. It's incredible. And the customers that we're getting at this event are extraordinary now. >>Everything from SMB small business accounts to every single enterprise company that I can think of in the strategic a thousand here in the U S they are here right now and it being a worldwide event. I hear languages, I hear people introducing each other to EDS. The energy in this room is just absolutely incredible. United nations of my, they really is. It really is. And it feels that way when you walk around the room for sure. Yeah. So you are the chief technology officer of us partner ecosystems. Talk a little bit about what you do at the company. Yeah. Yes. So what we're trying to do, obviously Microsoft being a channel company, right? We've built services and solutions through the channel, sold them through the channels since we started inception 45 years ago. So my team helps build that technology practice and those solutions with our partners. If you think about how you get access to the best and brightest engineers at the company, I'm pleased to say I actually have a bunch of those that get to work for me. >>And so every day we sit down with partners, we help them think about what technology solutions they want to create, where we see gaps in the marketplace, how do you make the biggest and best applications possible on the Microsoft stack? And then we help take those to market with our partners. So it's a, it's a wonderful experience of working with partners, both mature and sometimes immature startups. Brand new. Well, well, well Dave, one of the challenges, the surface area that Microsoft covers is so much bigger than before. You know, this is not the company that I use to get, you know, a disc, a, you know, in the mail to get to get started. You're now, you know, in the data center, of course, a strong player in SAS, in public cloud, at the edge in devices. You know, how do you manage all of those pieces and you know, give us a little snapshot. >>We feel like we're getting today at the announcement this week. Uh, really a, a rethinking of how hybrid should be thought of today and in the future. >> Yeah, I'm glad you said that. It's a really important differentiation there because if you think about our stack, we're a windows company, I've heard that before. Then we became an office company, right where the company does office and X-Box. Now we're really a services company. That's how we want to make sure that we talk to people about what we do everyday as we build services, applications and the layers that connect people to their productivity. Right? And so there were a lot of announcements this morning about Azure, which I think is phenomenal. Azure touches everything that we do, identity security monitoring, it touches everything that we absolutely do, but we bring that to life with applications like Microsoft three 65 and our productivity tools. >>There was a great demo this morning on power apps, RF, something. I'm really, really partial to having grown up a developer and then lost a lot of my technical skills, right? Like I don't get to code anymore. Something like power platform and leveraging all of the bots that we now have to democratize development work and make sure that the citizen developer can build really cool applications on our technology stack. As part of that, I will say everything for a while there moved the pendulum to Azure because it was this huge market opportunity in, there's lots of services out there and being that we're a really secure, trusted enterprise relationship, cuss a partner, a lot of people wanting to build applications and services on Azure. There's still a gigantic market opportunity within Microsoft three 65 productivity. What we're doing with exchange migrations is still a huge part of our business and then power apps and dynamics three 65 the ease of implementation and integration across all your applications, leveraging dynamics three 65 on equal opportunity. >>So, so David, you actually, I want to tease apart, you said a word services because Microsoft is still, it's a software company but it's more about the platforms that Microsoft delivers because one of the big challenges for users out there is there's just too many choices way too. There's no way anybody can listen through, you know all of the announcements this week and say, Oh okay, I'm up to speed on everything and I know what's going to work for my company. It's in many ways. It is the integration partners, the SIS, the MSPs, the channel partners, they're going to help pull those together. So, right. How do you make sure that you have, you know, comprehensive offerings that people can consume easier rather because we think that that's one of the challenges where at a certain inflection point with cloud is, remember cloud was supposed to be cheap and easy and it's neither of those shares, so how do we make sure that in today's day and age, you know, where do they turn to to be able to move their business forward, not spend hours and hours and months and years trying to figure out what the latest thing is when by the time I start doing it, the next thing's out. >>Yeah. Well, if you read a lot of the publications, it's like cloud is everywhere. The cloud adoption rate is actually fairly low across us and international business rates and there's several reasons for that, right? There's some, some trust issues there. There, there's some, I've got some on premise applications that I need to make sure that I migrate over. We launched today arc, right? Which is about really connecting all sorts of data services a, wherever your data center is, we'll come meet you. And I think that's a really nice platform story for Microsoft to tell. We've always been a customer and partner for six experience, so now we're gonna meet you where you are, where ever you are. You have the ability to manage, control, secure your it environments if you're on premise, if you're with another cloud provider, if you're in a co-location data center. >>And I think that ability to show along the the journey to the cloud and along the journey of the digital transformation where you're at, how are we going to help enable you, how are we going to make sure that we protect those end points and give you a consolidated, efficient UI to view through, right? Yeah. Actually. So there's Coobernetti's inside that arc. From my understanding what, what we've, we've been watching this trend for the last four plus years and one of the concerns is this is the Microsoft way to do things. Google has the way to do things. Every, there are lots of Kubernetes options out there and it's not a magic layer so there's still work. How does this become, you know, a driver for the ecosystem to participate and we don't end up with you all. I've got my Microsoft silo, my Amazon silo and Google silo. >>Something like arc is a great example of that though. We want to meet the customers where they are and we believe our technology stack in the long run, the different plugins to applications ISV, different services partners, the way customers want to see their data, we believe it will win out in the long run. So we're okay integrating our back end with SAP on Azure for example, row K with this data exchange with Oracle that we just announced a few months ago last year at this very event we were talking about before the SAP, Adobe, Microsoft data exchange program, right? We are officially an open services company that we believe you should have management control and identity right across all of your services, all of your data, and eventually you'll see, well Microsoft parties and our services and the ISV that are built on our services will win out in the long run. >>We really believe that. I think there's another thing about the Microsoft way. It's much different now, right? I mean I can remember still six, seven years ago where certain companies, whether it's IBM or Oracle or even red hat, we're randomize to us right now. We embrace those relationships and we embrace that data exchange because we're all trying to make sure that we optimize the experience for the customer and we think you can do it best through our our shared services environment. And the final thing I'll say is my, one of my favorite examples is our, our number one co-sale scenario out there with our ISV S is red hat. Now, if we said that when mr bomber was here or even on that five years ago, it was a much different experience there about red hat and how we embrace open source technologies, red hat, even something like OpenShift, which is their container services. >>We now enable as a first party through Azure. So it's okay, you don't have to use our Kubernetes brand. You can use third party services, put that on Azure for the most secure integrated experience possible. We absorb and we love, we embrace those relationships, right? Because we think once you get in there and you start leveraging the monitoring, security, identity provisioning, you know services are within our stack, we think you'll start adopting more and more services from Microsoft. >> So what's leading this trend? Because I mean it's so interesting that we're talking about this kind of open source approach to everything and this open brand in terms of using a little bit of Microsoft here, a little bit of AWS here. Yeah. How are is it that we're using so many though? Is that the, we're so willing to go for different companies in our lives as customers. >>If that or is it the technology industry that is pushing us? Yeah, I actually think it's the, it's the former. I think that the technology industry would love to say you're an Amazon person. You're a Microsoft shop, right? You're an open source shop. Right? And Microsoft used to be that way. Like in fact, you'll still hear some people talk about, Oh, I'm a Microsoft shop because I have windows server on premise. Now customers are looking for best in breed services, best in breed point solutions. When I started at Microsoft 15 years ago, you were a Microsoft customer and that meant you, you bought windows, you bought office, you bought window server, and then when we started launching SQL server, okay, you went to SQL server. Now it's a little bit different. You might use a security ISV solution here. You might use a data transfer or an identity management solution here. >>Microsoft has embraced that, that proliferation of purchasing based on point in time solutions. Right? Before the integration was very tricky, right? Between these applications or these different service layers. Now with something like Azure that integrates across all of these platforms, we're winning. We're winning that share because we listen. If you have an AWS data Lake out there, we're okay with that. You can secure it, you can monitor it, you can do analytics on it using Microsoft services, right? And eventually you'll see there's probably some cost benefit. There's probably some integration and some usability scenarios out there on why you'd want to migrate that to Azure. But while you get there, while you're on that journey, we're going to enable the connected infrastructure across that because customers want to buy best-in-breed, they want to buy what's available, what's easy to consume, what keeps their data secure. >>And so we're going to envelop, we're going to surround all those technologies with our service layer and one by one, right? Show the integration on that true best-in-breed connected experience that we think Microsoft can provide. So Dave, I love that message and I think it speaks to one of the reasons you said why the ecosystem is growing a, for those people that can't go through, come to the show, give us a little bit of a viewpoint. I mean, you know, we don't have an hour to go through all the options and I'm sure every partner is your favorite be the biggest or the smallest button. Give us a round it as is. So some of the areas that maybe, you know, you're hearing the most from customers that their most districts today, um, and some of the new areas that maybe might not have been here in previous years. >>Absolutely. I mean we're, we see success in the channel and frankly in the market places, you know, when we get out of talking about Azure or office three 65 or windows and we talk about what's the business outcome we're trying to drive, right? So like contract management is a, is a scenario that every customer needs, right? So something like I Certis which is a really strong contract management ISV solution that is embedded and built on dynamics three 65 is a great example of that, right? Do you want your contracts to touch your customer relationship database to get extended through outlook and exchange and then to be able to Mark up contracts with with our productivity tools, whether that's word, PowerPoint, et cetera. Contract management is an outcome that all customers need. We don't have to talk about Azure or dynamics three 65 we're talking about contract management. >>So I think is a really good example of somebody who's defined a market leading position for an actual workload, a business outcome that all customers need to drive and it just happens to be pulling through our technology. Another company, Nintex new Texas, right around the corner here, Nintex does an exceptional job of managing workflow. Any sort of scenario you need. Are you trying to hire a candidate? Are you trying to process paperwork? Are you trying to run your supply chain or inventory management? I could say go out and deploy SharePoint office three 65 go out and build an Azure database to go manage a virtual machine to spin up instances. Instead, I can say, do you have workflow that needs to be managed and connects to your database? Yes. Okay. Then go select Nintex, go see what they have to offer. They've got 30 plus offerings that you can take to catalog and customers want those outcomes. >>Customers at this day and age are getting less and less, I guess picky, I would say about the baseline infrastructure that runs all the services that they need. They're really about what's the application or the experience that integrates that secure that is easy to implement and that does a specific job to make me more efficient. Right? You spend more time with customers. I can drive more value. The fact that the 90% of those applications are powered on Azure is an okay secret, Hey, like that's okay for the channel do exist with all of these applications and services are built on Azure, built on dynamics three 65 that just happened to pull through business outcomes and if you're recommending them the Microsoft is this trusted brand and so there, that's the other part of that too. Yeah, I think so too. And I think there's a groups like Cohesity, another great organization out there that obviously we spend a lot of time and infrastructure with, right? >>Very driven to business and we're customers doing, if you think about the innovation curve that Cohesity has with their products in the marketplace, it's another great example of solve a business problem. You know, find a business problem worth, worth solving. Go out and invest in the it and infrastructure to go out and build it. Build a marketing and customer success plan around that and the fact that they can develop and take new solutions to marketplace in Azure quicker, more efficiently with more customer outcomes. Focus in that solution stack. They're using our shared services to build and have a faster time to market. Right? So it's not even just about the services that are built on Azure. It's how Azure and dynamics three 65 in modern workplace to be 65 Microsoft three 65 how we can enable partners to build solutions that solve customer's problems faster, right? And more efficient than we ever have in the past. Great. Well, Dave Totten, thank you so much for coming on the QBO is a really interesting conversation. Absolutely. Pleasure. Thank you for being here. Thank you to all of the sponsors that are out here, all the partners that are here to invest in this event. We appreciate your energy and support. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>>Live from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering UI path forward Americas 2019 brought to you by UI path. Hello. We've already welcome to Las Vegas. This is day two of the year. >>Path forward conference UI path forward three. So what UI Pat does is they named their events one two three last year we were at Miami in the year before was one. Their North American event, which was in New York city. Here is three at the Bellagio hotel in in Las Vegas. 3000 people here for this rocket ship company growing revenues, they've got over $300 million in annual recurring revenue. That's up from 25 million in 2017 so you're talking about greater than 12 X increase in annual recurring revenues over 3000 employees. Now, Daniel Dienes, the CEO just named the industries the tech industry's latest billionaire. He's now dressing like a billionaire last year. He's in a tee shirt this year. He looks more like a more like a CEO. So we're going to be interviewing him later on today, but let's get right into it. The keynotes today comprised God Kirkwood who gave some predictions and that's her. >>I'm going to go, I'm going to talk about his predictions. I'm going to make some comments on those predictions and give you some thoughts of my own. Maybe throw in a few predictions of from Dave Vellante and then Craig LeClaire from Forrester gave a keynote. He was on the QBs today. Very knowledgeable analysts, probably one of the industry's top analysts, and I'll make some comments on some of the things he said. So let me get right into it. You got Kirkwood when you do these predictions, you know I put 'em out there. Of course it is smart. He's going to do these things and make them somewhat self-serving for RPA and UI path. So I'll make some comments on that as first one. One those was, there'll be a global economic downturn. I can't remember if he actually pinned a date, but I think he said it's in paint pending. >>Let's let's say 2020 he said that's good for RPA. Why would that be good for RPA? Because if there's an economic downturn, people are gonna want to get more. For less, and they're going to want to automate. They're gonna want to spend money and get fast ROI. And RPA potentially is a way to do that. It's not necessarily good news for low wage workers. They're doing mundane tasks. But nonetheless, he made the statement that it's good for our RPA. I would say this, I think a lot of this is going to depend on 2020 and the election in the United States as to what happens. I think it's very unclear right now. You saw the democratic debates last night. It's very clear that there's a, there's a swing to the left. Elizabeth Warren is, is kind of appears to be the front runner. So I would, I would make this prediction. >>I actually think Trump was gonna win the election. You know, don't hate me for saying that all you Trump haters, but I think whatever happens, maybe, maybe doesn't win the election. Maybe he wins the election and then, and then the subsequent election goes to the Democrats. But I think there's going to be a major swing back to the left. And I think that what that's gonna do, it's gonna open up the checkbooks and put more pressure on debt and I don't think there's a real issue right now of too fast economic growth of inflation. It's obviously something that economists watch, but if interest rates start rising back to the Clinton era levels, that means big trouble for the economy. But I don't see that necessarily happening in 2020 I think 2020 we'll see some moderation. I definitely think we're seeing less tech spending expected for Q four and I think that'll spill into 2020 based on the ETR and enterprise technology research data that we see. >>But I think it's actually a healthy pullback. I kind of agree with guy on that front. I actually think it is good for RPA. I think RPA is one of those sectors that you see in the ETR surveys that is gaining share relative to other tech spending and I think that will continue in any downturn. So I expect softness. However you define downturn, I don't think it's going to be falling off the cliff or a disaster, but I definitely think spending will be more tepid. Second thing he said is RPA will become the YouTube for automations. Think of YouTube as a container. I am not going to spend a lot of time on this one. A YouTube and RPA. I think no one's a consumer, but his, his analogy was around a container for automations, just like YouTube was a container for for video. I think they have aspirations to scale like YouTube, but if you look at RPA is a right now a back office, B2B business function and I think it'll stay that way for a couple of years. >>I'll make some statements on that. Automations will move from snowflake to snowball. What does he mean by that? Well today automations are all unique. Every company, and he made this statement feels like it's automations are a snowflake there. Everyone is different and what he's predicting is that over time these automations will become, there'd be more commonality in those automations. I think that's true. I do think while there are definite business processes that are unique to companies that there are a lot of similarities. Things like the UI path marketplace will allow people to share automations and I think there will be much more commonality. I think it's critical for scale. Number four, he said students entering the workforce will force employers to use automation. He didn't give a timeframe on this, but I'll tell you one thing. At a 2020 I've got three kids in college with two kids in college, one that's recently, recently graduated, who does something. >>Most kids in college have no clue what robotic process automation is, let alone what the acronym RPA stands for. So this is going to take some time. asked a hundred college kids what RPA is and I bet you maybe one or two have heard of it, even know what it is. So that's not happening today. I think that'll take probably another two cycles of graduate's before that really hits. We heard from the college of William and Mary yesterday where Tom Clancy and the college have partnered to really push in RPA into the curriculum and I think that's great. I'm going to talk, Tom Clancy's, a expert in the area of training and education that's going to take some time to bake out. So I would put that again. Guy didn't give a timeframe, but I would, I would say that's, that's five to eight years away. Number five, we'll continue to be surprised by the intelligence of machines and the stupidity of humans. >>Well, what he meant by that was there are some things that humans do that are repetitive, that are mistakes. They make the same mistakes over and over and over again, and machines won't necessarily do that. I do think this, that the gap or the number of things, if you make a list between the number of things that humans can do versus what robots can do with a physical or software robots, that gap is closing. There's no question about it. It's, you know, short few years ago, robots couldn't even climb stairs and now they can and you're, you're seeing things like chatbots improving. There's still, you know, a lot of them are still crap frankly, but, but you're going to see a lot of money go into chatbots. And so I do think that that gap will, will close. And I think it's, it's gonna, it's gonna come down to education and creativity in terms of the impact on job loss. >>And I'll make some comments about that in a moment. The six prediction, there are seven overall, so bear with me here. Automation will be discussed in the United nations con and the context will be jobs, wages and global economics. That's already happened. It's already happening. People are concerned about the impact on productivity and, and so, you know, that's a lock. The last one was consolidation amongst RPA vendors and automation led services will accelerate. I totally agree with this. He mentioned work fusion and amp works as two companies that are gonna. We're going to where we're going to see consolidation. We've already seen it. SAP got bought Contexto so you see in the big whales come into this market in four talks a lot about RPA. Anytime there's a fast growing software segment like RPA and as a leader like UI path, would you other companies all you know on their tail automation anywhere and blue prism automation anywhere in UI path have a ton of dough. >>You're going to see the big software companies say, wait a minute, I need a piece of that pie. Because software companies generally feel like every dime that's spent on software should go to them. That's the mentality of an SAP or an Oracle or even IBM and so either, unquestionably, you're going to see some consolidation. You mentioned service providers as well. Companies like symphony. I've been making a lot of comparisons this week between what I see in the UI path ecosystem and what I saw way back in the early part of this decade in the service now ecosystem. You had a company with Fritz like cloud sharper, which nobody ever heard of. They were a service management ITSMs expert and Accenture eventually snapped them up and came in. You saw DXC or CSC at the time do the same thing. And so I think you'll see the same thing here in this ecosystem. >>This ecosystem here is happening. It's buzzing, but it's got to grow and, and you're already seeing Deloitte and cognizant and E Y and PWC. The big guys could have jump in here. I often say that SIS love to eat at the trough and they know where the money is and the money appears to be in RPA because really there's so many screwed up processes inside companies. RPA is actually can give them a quick ROI. Now let me turn to some of my thoughts on this. Let me talk about the job impact of automation the vendors would have. You believe that it's all good, that people love this and and when they bring in software robots, it makes their lives better because they're doing less money, less money, less of the mundane tasks, and they're able to focus on new, more strategic things to our customer that we've talked to here in the cube. >>And also privately. This is true, people do love your software. Robots. When we were Jean younger yesterday from security benefit. If you Civ most excited she's ever been, you know, having said that, Craig Le Claire's research shows that over the next 10 years we will see a 16% job loss of jobs will disappear, rolls will disappear, and by the way, foresters at the low end of the spectrum of that forecast. Most forecast say 30 40% of jobs are going to get disrupted. I tend to believe that Craig's number is probably a better one at the lower end of that spectrum, but that's still a huge number. You are going to see unquestionably job impact from automation. Absolutely. No question in my mind. I think you're already seeing it now. Look it. Humans have always been replaced by machines, but for the first time in history we're seeing Keith cognitive functions replacing humans and as going to have a big disruptive impact on the workforce. >>And the other piece of this I would predict we are going to see a productivity boost. I think a significant productivity boost. Let me share you some data with the Bureau of labor statistics, which you know, you may look at that, you know in question some of their methodologies, but over the longterm, I think it's a viable metric from 2007 to 2018 productivity grew at 1.3% that's an anemic rate from from 1947 to 2018 productivity grew at 2.1% so Oh seven to 18 half the longterm productivity gain, 2000 to 2007 2.7% and then from, and then what we saw in Q one of 19 3.4% uptick in productivity. Is that sustainable? I think it is. I think we're now entering a, a new phase of productivity growth and I think it's gonna be driven by things like RPA and other automation. So that is going to have an impact back to the earlier statements on job loss. >>Okay. The other thing is I want to talk about the forecast, the market. Last year at UI path two in Miami, I said that I thought that forecast was low. They had like $4 billion by 2020 and I sort of called out Craig LaClaire on that, you know, and so I said this could be 10 billion by 2020 now he clarified that today up on stage. I was including services in, in my prediction, correct. Declares follows this market much more closely than I do. So I'll defer to him on, on on that. But he put in the services number and he showed the services to license ratio of around, you know, three X or so. But he actually had this very serial number about 10 billion by 2020 so I felt, felt good about that. That kind of bat my back of napkin prediction. I used to do this stuff at IDC for a living. >>So you know, actually got a little knack for that on an analog basis. Then he showed sort of his, his forecast for the market, you know, growing at a very linear rate. Now I'll say this, I think hot markets like RPA, they generally don't grow at a, at a, at a linear steady rate. If you look at some of the emerging forecasts that I, you know, for instance, IDC had in my years there, we would always have these linear like smooth growth forecasts. You know, some of those big markets, you know, think, you know, early days of the PC, the, the, the, the internet flash storage, you know, things of that nature. They tend to, these disruptive technologies tend to grow in an curve or an S curve. So what you see is sort of this momentum building where the market is being seeded. Know Gardner has RPA now in the trough of disillusionment. >>So you're seeing some of this, okay, the little engine that could, and then what you see is this steep part of the S curve growing and then after it explodes and hits escape velocity, it's sort of stretches out into maturity. And I think that's what you're going to see with RPA. But some things have to happen before that happens. And one is specifically the RPA has to move from the back office to the front office. It has to move from only really dealing with pretty simple, mundane tasks to more complicated automations. It's got to be able to deal with unstructured data. It's gotta be able to handle on attended or rather attended bots where you're injecting humans into the equation and you're actually using machine learning and artificial intelligence to to learn and then identify other areas of automation and actually have systems of agency that can act. >>In other words, a bot will call another bot that actually can complete a transaction and so you're going to see a lot of money spent here. This is a big chasm. I think that RPA has to cross. We're going to talk to Daniel DNAs about this. He's a big ticker. He's a go big or go home guy, and so I think those things I would predict those things actually are going to happen because you're going to see so much effort and money and emphasis put into AI and for competitive advantage that I actually think that RPA can lead that and then again come back to the consolidation. I think you will see some consolidation. I think you're seeing UI path. Try to take the lead automation anywhere is kind of pressing the lead if you will. Both companies have raised a couple of billion dollars if you combine them and I think the way this market shakes out is any and you're going to have some of the big whales come in like SAP. >>I think the way this happened is you're going to see one or two specialists emerge. I think UI path is on its way there automation anywhere as well and and the number one player is going to make a lot of money. The number two players going to do two. OK the number three player is going to struggle and everybody else is kinda be either break even or they're going to bundle it in like SAP as part of their overall portfolio and compete on that basis. So I would predict that UI path will maintain its lead. I think its got the culture to do that. I think automation anywhere also could company is going to keep pressing that lead and those should are two companies you know that you need to watch me. Interesting to see. Blue prism, I think they are somewhat under capitalized. They went to the public markets. >>The spending data actually shows all three of these companies as well as some of the legacy companies like Pega systems actually gaining could have more share relative to other initiatives. So I think even some of these legacy companies are going to continue to chug along and actually do pretty well in the business. But, but the real darling, you know, I think it's going to be UI path. All the bankers are hovering around earlier on this week trying to get their business. They know there's an IPO coming at some point. Again, we'll ask Daniel Dienes about that today. You have it. That's my intro. Some of my predictions. Some a guy Kirkwood's predictions. Wall-to-wall coverage on the cube today, day two at UI path forward three from Las Vegas. We'll be right back right after this short break.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018 at the Sands Convention Center and all over Vegas. I don't know how many people are here. We haven't gotten the official word. 60,000, 70,000, I don't know. There's a lot of people. We're excited to have our next guest, but before we get in, happy to be joined by Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you, as always. >> Great to see you, as well. >> You know, one of my favorite things about doing Cube interviews is we learn about new industries that we didn't even know about. So, while we're here talking about IT, it's really about the application of IT that I think is really more interesting, more fun, and a great learning experience. So, we're really excited to have our next guest on. He is Kevin Smith, the director of MIS for Transcore. Kevin, great to see you. >> Hello. >> And many time Cube alumni, Sazzala Reddy. He is the CTO and co founder of Datrium. Sazzala, great to see you. >> Happy to be here. >> So, Kevin before we get into it, tells us a little about Transcore. What are you guys all about? >> Basically, we are the leading toll authority for kind of of Continental United States and we are trying to expand that throughout the world. We do the whole engineer all the way through manufacturing of toll systems for vehicles and cars throughout the U.S. So, the little stickers in you car all the way up to the readers that read them. They're coming through my place some how or some other. >> So, everything from the reader in the car-- >> Yup, the little sticker tag that sticks in your window or suction cups in. Wherever you are, yes you may hate us, but I'm not the one collecting the tolls. (laughs) >> I don't like it when you miss the picture. >> Well, let's input some design here. (laughs) >> Trust me, I've tried. (laughs) >> But then the huge back in process to pull that up, get it into the system, billing systems. >> Yeah, all integrated. Yep. >> And how big is the company? How long has it been around? >> We were acquired by Roper. We've been many divisions, but Los Alamos was technically, founding fathers 1954. >> 1954, so you've been around a long time >> Oh yeah, yes. They started with cows. >> RFID's on cows? >> Yes, tracking cows in the pastures of New Mexico. (laughs) >> With the little tags in their ears I imagine. Alright, great. We can talk about traffic probably all day long, but that's not why were here. That's not your day job you're not out there with the little RFID scanner. >> Not anymore, thank God. >> Let's talk about some of the challenges 'cause you know, obviously, the toll business has been around for a long time. But the automation of tolls has really changed a lot over the last five years. You probably know better than me from somebody in the booth taking my money and giving me a receipt to some places it's almost exclusively electronic. So, how's that business grown, and what have been some of the accompanying challenges have you seen that been grown? >> Part of the performance issues we were running into was the quantity. Because the man is gone from the booth, we have to produce more tags that become more readable. So, that creates more back in work, more transactions. And, in the long run, producing more tags. You know, we've gone to millions and millions of tags being produced, in a quarter, to where it was just hundreds of thousands. So, with that requires scalability that we can grow with our systems and our systems we had just wasn't doing it. >> So, you got the manufacturing of the tags as well, I didn't even think of the manufac- you got to make them in the first place, too. >> That is our bread and butter. Manufacturing those tags and the millions of millions of transactions that we test, because we have to test every tag that goes out the door. Every tag gets tested. >> How far away do they work, on those readers? I'm just curious. >> It depends on your speed. We've tested up to 200 miles an hour. And I think it's, like, 40-50 feet? So, as long as you're going under 200 miles an hour, we can get ya. >> Okay, so, how did you meet Sazzala in Datrium? How did that come about? >> We went looking for a product that could give us a one stop solution. We wanted something that was basically, I wanted to get out of the storage business, I wanted to get out of the management business. I didn't want to be having to worry about all these different vendors, all these different solutions. And Datrium was able to provide that. Compared to some of the other products that we were looking at, we did test with other products, and Datrium came out on top. They gave us the total package. >> Sazzala, when you looked at this oppurtunity, what did you see? Anything unique and different? What were some of the challenges that you tried to figure out how to help Kevin? >> So, what we are finding is that more and more companies, every company is a software company, every company is a data company, right? Every body wants to move faster. Everybody wants to things faster. I can't wait for my movie to start in two seconds. I'm like, Why is it taking two seconds? So, everybody wants things faster. We live in this instant economy where everything needs to be either you transform or you die. So, how do we make that transition into the speed? How do you build your data center, whatever your doing, to match that speed of innovation? Any system you're going to deploy in a data center, has to be not in the way. It has to be less management, less overhead. Look at Amazon, very successful because there is less to manage. And, you mostly manage your applications. That's what the business moral is going to be going forward. That's why people like the Cloud. Why does CIO like the Cloud? Not because it's cooler, or whatever, but because it makes things faster. It's expensive, yeah, but it makes things faster in some ways. >> Go ahead. >> I was going to say, on issue we ran into and we came to him with was our CAD designers. 'Cause we designed the product. And, the rendering was just dragging on our old systems. And, we went from two to three minutes rendering to seconds rendering new graphics. And, so, before they were like I'm not going to save it yet, I'm not going to re-render it. Now, they're re-rendering every time they're making a change. It helps in performance, it helps the application, and it helps increase the productivity of my CAD designers. >> Right. I was going to say, it was probably the customer service pretty significant, as well, so they can get the version that they want. >> Definitely, definitely. And, you know, the nice thing is is Datrium allowed us to scale. We couldn't go out and just Okay, revamp everything. You got to do baby steps. And Datrium gave us that scaleabilty, to where I could add anything from 1 to 128 nodes. You know, I was able to increase performance by just adding a server node, or increase the rights by adding a data node. That's the flexibilty that I needed from a vendor. >> So, when you said that Datrium had the whole package, you looked at some other solutions out there. When you were trying to find the whole package at the beginning of the process, what were the key attributes that you said I would love to get all these from one place? >> I was looking for performance and scale. Which I got. I was looking for back-up. God, I wanted to get out of the back-up business. I was tired of tapes, I was tired of third-party solutions. >> Tire of tapes? (laughs) >> Trust me. Shh, don't tell the tape vendors here. >> Tape is good, if you have the right application. >> Security, I stay awake at night. I lead our security teams. I stay awake worrying about Is my data protected? You know, with their encryption, that gave me that whole protection. And the last thing was DR. DR is adorned in every IT manager, every IT director, every, you know, CTO. And, with their whole Cloud shift, that DR? What DR, it's done. It just happens. And those four things is kind of what led us to finding Datrium. 'Cause some of them gave us one or two, but not everyone could give us all four of the options that we were looking for. >> What I love about the story is those are kind of concrete savings and doing your job easier. What your excited about is enabling your CAD designer, your kind of proactive sales process, your proactive design, your proactive innovation to actually move faster. That's not a cost saving mechanism. That's really a transformational, kind of positive revenue, side of the tale that I don't think is told enough. People focus on the cost savings and execution. That's not what it's about. It's really about innovating and growing your business faster. Do you think? >> Oh no, our ROI, that we calculated in, was just on hardware. Just on my cost savings that I could put a penny to. The time, it's so great. I mean, my CAD designers producing product faster, my developers are asking for more VMs. For me to spin up because the speed is so much faster. We're used to being Oh, don't touch it. I got this guy tuned exactly where I want it. We got the memory. But now, they're asking for more and more, and it's my in users, who are really the engineers, my manufacturing people, they're wanting more and more out of the product and Datirum is delivering. I don't go to dashboard and look to try and figure out how to tweak it anymore. I don't have any complaints. And, if I don't have any complaints, were doing something right. >> That's a good thing. >> So, it just works? >> Oh, it was beyond just works. >> Literally. >> Trust me, I was ready when we bought product to bring in a whole team and I was like, Oh, I'm going to have to hire all these people. And the guy came in and he goes, Okay, turn it on. Okay we're done. I was like, Nu-uh. He goes, Oh yeah, you have to plug that cord in back there. I was like, Wow. 'Cause, you know, usually it's-- >> I'm looking at a number right now, and it is 617% three year ROI. >> It's across many customers (mumbles) >> I totally believe you with what-- >> So we are aiming for a U.S. designer came and asked me one day, What should I aim for as a design principle? I said, We should aim for zero UI. That's what we should do. It should be transparent, it should just work. That's what we really aim for. I'm not saying we have zero UI today, but that's our goal. >> It's good to have goals. >> Let's just make it work automatically, right? That's kind of the goal. >> Well, and that was one thing, we wanted something integrated, so we didn't have to go looking. And, that's one thing I tell the engineers all the time. I go into the UI just to kind of see how cool the systems running. You know, because there is no issues. It just works. Everything's integrated, I don't have to go in and click and click and click and click to get through stuff. It just works and integrates well. We're a big Vmware shop, big Dell server shop. All of that, one-stop shop. I was telling Sazzala, you know, it's great when I get the e-mail that there's a problem with my Datrium system before my help desk is getting the notification. I can't buy that service. >> So, Kevin, there's a lot of peers that will be watching this show. Peers of you. Having gone through this process and now you are on the other side and you're on to some new things, in terms of innovation, what would you share with a peer whose trying to sort some of this out? It's a confusing landscape. There's so many options, and you got to do your day job, too. Besides, putting out new technology. What would you share with a peer if you're sitting down over a beverage on a Friday afternoon? >> You know, I would talk to them about having that capability, really a performance scale. Being able to not worry about controllers, not worrying about what SSDs you got to put into something to make it work. Pop 'em in. SSDs are cheap nowadays. Pop 'em in. It increases your reads. Going back to the whole no more third-party solutions for back-ups. Every SIS admin, every manager knows, back-ups are only good for restores. That's the only reason you do a back-up, is 'cause you got to do that restore. And, it becomes invisible. It's all running in the background. I don't even think about it anymore. My old systems, we still think about. That aren't on the Datrium product yet, but all our production (scoffs) When I'm backing up every hour, and my RTO almost becomes zero if something happens, you can't ask for that. That's critical, I think, for every manager, every director, even the SIS admins. No one wants to really think about back-ups. And, when you're comparing your products, take a look at that. How quick can you get something back up when that hard drive went out, you know? That's critical. And, of course, DR is, you know, everyone needs that checkbox checked for recovering. It just comes right away, with that. >> We've run out of time. Going to ask you the big question. Do you sleep better? >> Oh, much better. (laughs) Easily now. Yes. Now I get to worry about other things. Like keeping my CFO happy about something else. >> And, I've got a list of people we need to introduce to you. Definitely. >> Fortunately, you always move through your next point of failure. Once you fix one spot. Watch Lucy check out the chocolate-- >> Hey, but if I can have this one off my plate, that's one better for me. >> Well, Kevin, thanks a lot for telling your story. It's a really impressive story And, I'll think of you as I go across a Dumbarton Bridge some time. >> Think about that, yes! >> Absolutely. >> Thank you for having me. >> Sazzala, great to see you, as always. Lauren, lots of fun. I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCube. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCUBE's ecosystem partnership. (upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back everyone to the live CUBE coverage here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman. Three days days of wall-to-wall live coverage, we have Mandy Whaley, senior director of developer experience at Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, who is the senior director of community and ecosystem for DevNet. Mandy, great to see you, CUBE alumni. Every single time we had theCUBE with DevNet team, Par, great to see you. Congratulations, first of all. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, we're happy to be here. >> Congratulations, so, really kind of a proud moment for you guys, and I want to give you some mad props on the fact that you guys have built a successful developer program, DevNet and DevNet Create for Cloud Native, over a half a million registered, engaged users, of developers using it. Not just people who come to the site. >> Correct. >> Right. >> Real developers. For an infrastructure enterprise company, that's a big deal, congratulations. >> It is, thank you, thank you. We were just chatting this morning about the really early days of DevNet at Cisco Live, and the first year of DevNet Create. And it's been great to see that community grow. And see, early on we had this vision of bringing the application developers and the infrastructure engineers together, and cross-pollinating those teams, and having them learn about each other's fields, and then build these programmable infrastructure enabled apps, and that's really, that synergy is happening within the community, and it's great to see them exchanging ideas here at events like this. >> And so we love to talk about seminal moments, and obviously DevOps drove a lot of the Cloud, and Chuck Robbins, your CEO said, "Without networking, there'd be no Cloud." True statement, absolutely, but Stu and I have always talked about the role of a network engineer, and that the power that they used to have in the enterprise is still due. It used to be the top people running the networks, mission critical, obviously security, but it's not about a retraining. It's about a path, and I think what you guys have done in success is you've shown a path where it's not about pivoting and being relevant and retraining to get a new job, it's been an extension of what they already know, >> An incentive. and I think that's very refreshing, and I think that's the real discovery. >> And we've been able to grow, because I think in our foundational years, we really spent a lot of time providing the content and the skill training, and what Mandy likes to say is, "We met them where they are." So no question was too novice. Likewise, if they were a little more advanced, we could direct them and point them in that same direction. So those early years, where, Mandy, we were just reminiscing about the first DevNet-- >> Coding 101? >> Yes, exactly, she wrote it over the weekend, and we rolled that whole event out, literally, in three months. >> And what year was that, just to kind of, this is an important seminal moment. >> 2014. >> May of 2014. >> 2014. >> 2014, the seeds of we should do something, and you guys have had certifications. We're looking at CCIEs, you go back to 1993 all the way now to 2018, so it's not like you guys are new to certification and training. It's just taking the IQ of network people, and giving them some insight. So what happened in 2014? Take us through the, obviously you bootstrapped it. >> Yes. (laughs) >> What happened, what happened next? >> We did. >> Everyone's like, whoa, >> So-- >> we can't, we're not, we're staying below the stack here. >> Well, we knew there was a lot of buzz around SDN and programmability, and we both actually, I should even back up further. We were both on the DevNet team when the DevNet program was Powerpoints, so we weren't even there yet. >> Right, when we were just planning what it even could be, like the ideas of having a developer program, and like Par was saying, we knew SDN was coming. We knew Network Controllers were coming. We didn't know what they were gonna be called, we didn't know what those APIs looked like, but we said, "The network engineers are gonna need "to know how to make REST API calls. "They're gonna need to know how to operate in Python." And so we started this program building around that vision before the portfolio is where it is today. Like today, now, we have APIs across the whole portfolio, Data Center, service provider, enterprise, and then up and down from the devices, all the way to controllers, up to the analytics level. So the portfolio's really filled out, and we've been able to bring that community along with it, which has been great. >> I want to dig into the north/south, east/west and that whole, kind of the Cloud paradigm, but I got to ask you, on a personal question, although relevant to the DevNet success. Was there a moment where, actually the seminal moments of 2014, was there a moment where you were like, "Wow, this is working." and like the, you know, (laughs) pinch me moment, or was it more of, "We got to get more resources, this is not just, "this thing's flying." >> Well it's always that. That's always the challenge. >> When was the point where >> We are, >> you said, "This is actually >> We are very-- >> "the best path, it's working, double down." When was that happening? >> I mean, I think after we started teaching those very early coding coding classes, I got this, like, flood of email from people who had attended them that said, "I took this task, I automated it, "it saved my team months of work," and getting that flow of information back from the community was early signs to me, from the technical level of, there's value, this is gonna take off, and then I think we just saw that kind of grow and grow. >> Mushroom, just kept it going. >> The other thing that I heard from a network engineer, which really resonated with me, was, you were saying, the network guy or gal likes to be there and solve the problem, and they're sort of at this deep level of control. And what I heard them say about the programmability skills was that that was another tool that they added to their sort of toolbox that let them be that person in the moment, solving that problem. And they could just solve it in a new way, so hearing the network engineers say that they have adopted programmability in that fashion, that let me know that that was gonna work, I think. >> All right, so let's get into some of the meat and potatoes, because you guys have some really good announcements. We saw you have the code ecosystem that you announced at DevNet Create, which is your emerging Cloud Native worlds coming together. That's available now. >> Yes, it's fully released. >> So take a minute to, so give us the update. >> Yes, so DevNet Code Exchange is developer.cisco.com/codeexchange so you can go there, it's live, and the idea behind this was we wanted to make it easy for the community to contribute, and also to discover code written by the community. So it's on GitHub. You can go and search on GitHub, but you get back a ton of hits if you go search Cisco on GitHub, which is great, but what we wanted to have was a curated list that you can filter by product, by language. I sometimes joke that it's like Zappos for sample code cause you can go on and say, "I want black boots, "you know the two inch heel." You can say, "I want, I want code for DNA Center, "or ACI, and I want it in Python," and then see all of the repositories submitted by the community. And then the community can also share their codes. "Hey, I've been working on this project. "I'm gonna add it to Code Exchange, so that other people "can build off of it and find it." So it's really about this community contribution, which is a strategic initiative for DevNet for this year. >> Mandy, how does that tie into other networking initiatives happening in the industry? I think of OpenDaylight, a lot of stuff happening, Docker comes this week, Kubernetes, and networking's a critical piece of all of these environments. >> Yeah, so some of the projects that you'll find in Code Exchange are things that relate. So we have some really good open-source community projects around YANG models and the tooling to help you deal with YANG models. So those might be in Code Exchange, but those are also part of the OpenDaylight community, and being worked in that. So because it is all open-source, because it is freely shared, and it's really just a way to improve discoverability, we can share easily back and forth between those communities. >> The Code Exchange is designed to really help people peer-to-peer work together and reuse code, but in the classic >> Reuse code within >> open-source ethos. >> the community. Exactly. >> Okay, so Par, you have something going on with Ecosystem Exchange. >> We do. >> Okay, so it sounds like Code Exchange, ecosystem partners, matchmaking service. What is it, take a minute to explain. >> It's kinda the next level up, and what I think we have to understand is, when we've got Code Exchange and Ecosystem Exchange under the umbrella of exchange, because within our 500, half a million community of developers, where they work, what we've found is predominately at SIs, at our VARs, at our ISVs. So these are the builders, so Code Exchange will even help that persona because they can come and see what's already been built. "Is there something that can jumpstart my development?" And if there's not, then they can work with each other, right? So if I am looking for a partner, a VAR in Australia to help me roll out my application, my navigation application, which needs to know and get data from the network, I can partner through this exchange because I can go in, see everyone, and be able to make that connection digitally versus organically. And this really started, you asked earlier what was one of the pinnacle moments? Well at these DevNet Zones, what we found is that an ISV would partner and start talking to an SI or to a VAR, and they'd start doing business planning, because what this is all about is driving those business outcomes for our customer base. And we're finding more and more they're trying to work together. >> So you're enabling people to get, do some work together, but not try and be a marketplace where you're actually charging a transaction. It's really kind of a matchmaking-- >> This is all about discovery right now. >> Community-driven discovery around business. Yeah, it's interesting, a heard a story in the hallway about DevNet, cause I love to get the examples of, we love what we're doing by the way, but want to get the examples, overheard a guy saying, "We were basically "cratering a business, jumped into the DevNet program, "and turned it around," because there was deals happening. So the organic nature of the community allowed for him to get his hands dirty and leverage it, but actually build business value. >> That's exactly right. >> That's a huge, >> That's exactly right. >> at the end of the day, people love to play with code, but they're building something for business purposes or open-source projects. >> And that's what this is about. It's really transitioning from the, "I'm gonna build," to now there's business value associated with it, and that's spectacular. >> I think so much of my career you talk, the poor network administrators, like "Help, help, "I'm gonna lock myself for a month, "and I'm gonna do all this scripting," and then three months later their business comes and asks for something that, "I need to go it again," because it's not repeatable. It's what we say is that the challenge has been that undifferentiated heavy lifting that too many companies do. >> Exactly. >> Well, that's exactly it, and the interesting thing, especially around intent-based networking is that's opening up a whole new opportunity of innovation and services. And one of the things that isn't very much different with our Ecosystem Exchange is it's the whole portfolio, so we have SIs in there as well as ISVs. And most marketplaces or catalogs really look at it in a silo version. >> I have one example of kinda the two coming together that's really interesting. So, Meraki, which is the wireless network, has really great indoor location-based services you can get from the WiFi. And then there's been ISVs who have built indoor wave finding on top of it, they're really great applications. But those software companies don't necessarily know how to go install a Meraki network or sell a Meraki network to something like this. And so it's been a great way to see how some of those wave finding companies can get together with the people who actually go sell and install and admin Meraki networks, and, but come together, cause they would have a hard time finding each other otherwise. >> And the example is actually rolled out here at Cisco Live. We've, Cisco Live partnered with an ISV to embed a Cloud-based service in their app, which is navigation. So you can go into the Cisco Live app, tap on the session that you want to see. A map will come up that will navigate you from where you are here to get there, and this is, I think this is the second largest conference center in the United States, so having that map >> So you need it. >> is really important. >> I've gotten lost twice. >> We've all got the steps to prove that that is, but, yeah, and that actually brings, one of the questions I had was, is it typically some new thing, to do wireless rollouts and SD-WAN on discovery, or is it core networking, or is it kind of across the board as to when people get involved? >> It's definitely both. It's definitely both. I mean, from the Code Exchange piece, I've talked to a lot of customers this week who are saying, "We've got our core networking teams. "We want to move towards more automation. "We're trying to figure out how to get started." And so we give them all the resources to get started, like our video series and then now Code Exchange. And then I heard from some people here, they actually coded up some things and submitted it to Code Exchange while they were here because they had an idea for just a simple, quick automation piece that they needed. And they were like, "I bet somebody else "needs it too," so it was definitely in that. >> I noticed you guys also have your Cisco team I was talking to, some of the folks here have patents are being filed. So internally at Cisco, it's kind of a wind of change happening, where, >> It is exciting times. >> IoT cameras, I just saw a solution behind us here where you plug a Rasberry Pi hardware prototype to an AP, makes the camera a video. Now it looks like facial recognition, saves the metadata, never stores video, so this is kind of the new model. >> Pretty remarkable. So final question I want to ask you is, as you guys continue to build community, you're looking for feedback, the role of integrating is critical. You mentioned this Cisco example about going to market together. It used to be, "Hey, I'm an integrator of our solution, "business planning," okay, and then you gotta go to the Cisco rep, and then there's, they're dislocated. More and more it's coming together. >> It is. >> How are you guys bridging that, those two worlds? How are you tying it together? What's the plan? >> So we're, what we're finding is a lot of those partners are also sort of morphing. So they're not just one thing anymore, and so what we're doing is we're working with them, enabling them on our platforms, providing solid APIs that they can leverage, transitioning or expanding the code, the skillsets of their workers, and then we're partnering them up with our business partners and with our ISVs, and doing a lot of that matchmaking. And with Ecosystem Exchange, again, they'll now be able to take that to a digital format, so we're seeing the whole wave of the market taking them. >> So you guys see it coming. You're on that wave. >> Yes. >> All right, real quick, I know we're short on time, but I would, Mandy, if you could just talk about what Susie Wee, you're leader talked about on stage on the keynote, she mentioned DNA Center. Can you just take a quick second, describe what that is, why it's important, and impact to the community. >> Yes, so we're really excited about DNA Center platform. DNA Center is the controller, kind of at the heart of all of our new enterprise networking software. So it sits on top of the devices, and it exposes a whole library of APIs. It'll let you do Assurance, policy, get device information. It would allow you to build a kind of self-service ops models, so you could give more power to your power users to get access to network resources, on-board new devices, things like that. >> So it sets the services. >> So it's APIs, and then you can build the services on top. And part of that is also the Assurance, which Dave Geckeler showed in his keynote, which we're really excited about. So, in DevNet we've been working to build all the resources around those APIs, and we have many code samples in Code Exchange. We actually have a community contribution sprint going on right now, and that's called Code Intent with DevNet, and it's all around DNA Center. It's asking developers to take a business intent and turn it into code, and close the loop with Assurance, and submit that back to DevNet. >> That's great. It's a real business process >> We're real excited about >> improvement with code, >> that, yeah, so you're enabling that, and slinging APIs around, having fun, are you having fun? >> Definitely having fun. >> Par? >> We always have fun >> Absolutely >> on this team. >> We always have fun, yeah. >> It's a great team. >> I can say working with you guys up close has been fun to work, and congratulations. You guys have worked really hard and built a very successful, growing ecosystem of developers and partners, congratulations. >> Thank you. You guys have helped. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for supporting >> We appreciate it. theCUBE, really appreciate, this is crew of the DevNet team talking about, back in the early days, 2014, when it started, now it's booming. One of the successful developer programs in the enterprise here. Cisco's really showing the path. It's all about the community and the ecosystems, theCUBE, of course, doing our share. Broadcasting here live in Orlando at Cisco Live 2018. Stay with us for more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering SAP SAPPHIRE NOW 2018. Brought to you by NetApp. Welcome to theCUBE, we are on the ground in the NetApp booth at SAP SAPPHIRE 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, I'm hanging out with Keith Townsend. Today we are joined by RJ Bibby, who is the SAP Global Alliance Chief of Staff at NetApp. RJ, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, we're so glad you guys are here. >> So, this, is a huge event. There are, I've heard 20,000 attendees live, but they were saying at the keynote this morning, Bill McDermott was, over a million people are expected to engage with the SAP experience both in person and online, that's enormous, enormous. SAP and NetApp have been partners for 17 plus years now. Right, you've got thousands of customers that run SAP on NetApp. What's current with the partnership? What's going on there from your perspective? >> Well thanks Lisa, thanks Keith. But first off I want to thank you all for being here. We're ecstatic for having theCUBE in our booth. We haven't been back here as a sponsor in a couple years. So being a platinum sponsor, 40 people here on the ground from all over the world. Like you said, we're about 26,000 people this week. So, really busy, we're in our 18th year. This year, as a partnership with SAP. To answer that question, it's really exciting. We have a very unique partnership with SAP. It's a true 360 partnership, and what I mean by that. One, we co-innovate together. So we're doing co-innovation where NetApp on SAP on NetApp. What that mean is basically a lot of the SAP products, like hybris, like Ariba, SuccessFactors are built on NetApp. We're doing co-innovation on blockchain, on HANA, IOT. So, we're really looking at that next phase of automation in data management. And we'll get into data management in a bit. We're both customers to each other. We just had our CIO met with a customer success office this morning to talk about some of the integrations of products that we're doing. Second year in a row SAP has been our largest customer. So the growth on that end is great, and then lastly the GODA market, and that's really what I really do from the alliance side. So, heavily around HANA acceleration. How we constantly are helping our customers move to HANA with our NetApp data fabric and ONTAP, our core signature products that deploy SAP. And we're very focused on industry, very focused on a global to local partner for life. We both have really warm, loyal customers. And then there's a kind of G100 strategic approach too. So that's the partnership, it's been a lot of fun. And we're gonna see where it goes in 2018. >> So RJ, talk to us a little bit more. Add some color on this relationship between Netapp and SAP in the market. NetApp, data driven company. SAP, probably the premier data analysis, analytics. We saw on stage from customer experience all the way to backend. You can't do that without a solid, robust infrastructure that's focused on SAP. What are some of the key technologies and strategy that NetApp and SAP have teamed together, bring together such successes? >> No, great question Keith. Really it goes down to the core of data. So NetApp has done a transformation the last two years, where we're gonna be now the data management company for hybrid cloud. So in that core, customers are looking to do a bunch of different things with NetApp. We want to manage, transport, analyze and protect data. A lot of data on SAP. So they're modernizing their data centers, how do we move to the hybrid cloud? With our ONTAP product, which is really a software capability, really turning into a software company in the cloud, as is SAP. So the core products of HANA, SuccessFactors, Ariba, Field Glass, Concur, all the things from an operations standpoint that's been automated for their business is kind of built on NetApp. Is built on NetApp, a lot of them. So our approach to the customer is how do we help the experience? And, we're doing that transformation internally, so we're going through it with SAP. There's lessons there. SAP did this and moved to a kind of cloud company a couple years ago on NetApp. Those are some of the core instances, but there's a modernizing a data center approach, there's a hybrid cloud. But it still just comes down to, oh my God, data runs my business. I'm really scared about it from protection. There's too much of it. How do I monetize? What are the analytics behind it? And that's what NetApp is really on the forefront of doing. Our CIO talked about this, this week. He's going to talk about it this week, about choice. What we're hearing for customers is, I need choice. I need to move my data around on PRAM, into whatever hybrid hyperscaler environment you want fast, efficient, with analytics read outs. So that's kind of the approach we're starting to take to market. I find it to be a very consultative of approach where it's Mister Customer, SAP NetApp, whoever your hybrid cloud choice is, who your SI is, the other technology partners are. We're all together collectively, almost like a innovation program for a customer approach. And that's kind of, not my secret, but one of my secrets of how we're going to market with the sales teams. >> I'm curious, NetApp is 26 years old. 26 years young maybe. I worked there I was telling you, for a few years as well. On marketing, which was awesome. Lot of evolution from a storage perspective. You say NetApp runs a SAP, SAP runs a NetApp as well. Talk to us about this maybe SAP as an influencer of the evolution of NetApp from storage company to now as you said, data authority for hybrid cloud. >> Yeah, no great question. I think it started where we wanted, we saw that software was kind of taking over. The automation, right? So it's almost like storage is a service. In my four years at NetApp, we never approach SAP as a partner or the customer talking about storage or infrastructure per se. Kind of around this data management methodology a while back. I think SAP has been an influencer internally fpr us in a couple regards. One they have the state of the art, a lot of the software operations. Things that we needed to run the business. There's been some kinks, there's some things that we probably need to customize that fit our business. NetApp's really unique, we're about 6 billion dollars, with 10,000 employees, with three business units. And we're a very unique company. The culture is awesome, we're empowered. Salespeople on the ground are empowered. Me helping run the alliance, we can be very strategic on how and what we want to do. Hey, we want to have CUBE at SAPPHIRE, absolutely do it, as an example. So, with that empowerment, we've been able to look at the best of breed in tools. And I think the tools are helping us from looking at the business and really how the customer experience. I'll give you one example on that. We're listening to our customers and how they want to transform their data, in their data on SAP. Well, I need to also be able to look at the analytics internally on okay, does my customer need a technical refresh? What are they doing on SAP? Is it SAP on Oracle? What products do they have of NetApp? Do our salespeople properly enabled on selling SAP on Cloud? Are they talking to their counterparts at the account from SAP, from a CISCO or Fujitsu, AWS, and then whatever SI. So there's a lot of complexity, there's an art and a science to it. And it's in our transformation in SAP from the tools perspectives at the core of that. >> RJ let's talk about the alliance beyond just the SAP to NetApp. This is really complex, I mean even with the tools, you know, ONTAP on the cloud, ONTAP in your data center. ONTAP kind of in the fog later, wherever you want to say that's at. That normalizes the data, it kind of validates the NetApp as the data driven company. However, when you go to an enterprise and you say that, you know what, this thing that used to live at my data center is now spread across these three different environments. It's really hard to figure out. How do SIs play a role into shaping the strategy in this alliance? Yeah, that's a whole other layer right? The complexity, 'cause I find, I came from the SI side of the house. I worked at Accenture for a really long time prior to my career in the partnership side. You know, I think they're very good from a consultative approach of hey, how do we want to design this thing? How do we want to implement it? How do we want to run it? And where does everybody's silo of stuff or technologies fall into that? I think the art part of it is hey, as NetApp or with MRSI, hey man, how do we help design with you? How do we consult the end to end approach here? I think we're the expert from an end to end data management approach. So there's some butting of heads at times depending on which SI, because they do. They have these long standing executive partnerships. There's a lot of investment from SIs at the account. I was just at a leadership conference with Accenture. And they're spending three billion dollars on three different things around automation. One, training. They can't get people, it's still about people in process. How do we get the process and tools in place? Where do we need to go merger and acquisition on the latest products? And how do we implement with that ecosystem? So I always think it's a work in progress. It's gone well, I think that's something I'd like to see us improve on. I think the SAP to NetApp partnership is advanced. In a lot of regards to that. It's like anything, it's also like when you look at salespeople internally at NetApp with our transformation. How do you get people out of the conference zone talking to their infrastructure lead, their line of business lead. And elevate to the cloud conversation. Going to the CXO, I think the Chief Security Offer is the key executive now in our sales process. Because of data protection. And that's something that we do well, and that's something they own, and I'm always trying to be creative. There might lots of dollars to protect data. How do we turn that into a whole strategy conversation with all the partners? >> So let's go a little deeper on NetApp's value propositions. You know what? Infrastructure is infrastructure, why should it matter? How do you guys differentiate between your competitors and running S4 HANA, the cloud strategy, you know what, end memory databases, storage is no longer needed, that's not true, but what's the story? >> Good question. The story for us is the ONTAP product that we have, the software because what we can do is deploy SAP really fast. Really fast, just some stats. You can get 45% project timeline savings with our deployment of SAP. The secret sauce in that is, the tools of the replication in the snapshot. When you're doing constant development ongoing maintenance, we can do snapshots in real time. That is the key thing that keeps the production going live faster. >> You know, because CICD is not something that we do, I've managed SAP for a long time. And CICD wasn't exactly a concept in SAP. So we rely on the infrastructure a lot to do. So snapshots is an amazing example of how you bring the CICD approach to something that is stayed as SAP. You can't just shut down SAP for the weekend to apply a update five times a year. >> Correct, so hours and hours of down time, where we can do it in three hours. A lot of times it's real time. I was just at a HANA Conference in Vegas and we got a lot of one on one time with customers. It was awesome, and that was the biggest things they said they need more of NetApp. And the differentiator is we're continue to expand our approach to managing the data, and I need the replication and the cloning specifically to run the production value end to end. So that's the other part of it. It's really just doing that end to end landscape management of SAP and Non-SAP workloads. The one thing that's great about the cloud part of this is you do need a lot of storage, and it's software based storage. So I think the approach in NetApp is going in the right direction. I've been working with SAP as a partner now for 12 years. I think that this is probably the best momentum I've had with SAP ever. And one of the reasons why is one, data is the story, right? What does Bill McDermott always say? Data is now the currency. Well today he was saying now trust is the currency, which is completely true too. But from the data being the currency perspective, it's now the end game for both of us. So we've kind of, in all companies, have gone into the middle. That's kind of not only the messaging, but kind of the central thing we're trying to deliver value on. And the choice, I want to keep saying the fact that customers now want choice on where they put their data. That's the thing that we're really promoting here at SAPPHIRE this week. >> Last question RJ. >> Last? All day! >> I know, I know right? Speaking of choice, you mentioned customers want choice. They do want choice. You talked about value, delivering value. From a competitive perspective, customers have choice. They've got other storage vendors they can work with. Give us your best elevator pitch. What makes NetApp and SAP different and better than say, some of those, maybe orange colored competitors? >> Sure, no, no, it's a great question. The biggest differentiator is just the fact that we are the one company out there that can provide data management in any hybrid environment. AWS, a hyperscaler, Microsoft, Google, we're doing cloud volumes just announced a Google Cloud platform. You know, we're one of the premier technology from HANA and Azure. So I think number one it's that. Secondly, we can deploy SAP really quickly, which consumes licenses. So one, the customer really likes that. Two, SAP sales loves it 'cause then it gives them a chance to go back to the customer. And then just the end to end data management that we can provide our customers value. I would say choice one. >> Awesome, well I said a few minutes ago to Keith that Bill McDermott is probably the most energetic C level that I've ever seen. Your energy level RJ, right there with his. >> You know why? 'Cause it's go time, it's SAPPHIRE day one. >> The stage might have exploded if we had them both at the same time. >> That would've been fun. >> Pyrotechnics on day one! Well RJ thank you so much, not only for visiting with Keith and me this morning. But also of having theCube in the NetApp booth at SAPPHIRE. >> We love it, we can't wait. Thanks everybody. >> I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend at theCUBE on the ground at SAPPHIRE NOW day one. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Las Vegas. It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of AWS. Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2017. Amazon web Services annual conference, 45,000 people here. Five years in a row for theCUBE, and we're going to be continuing to cover years and decades after, it's on a tear. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman. Exciting science, one of the biggest themes here is AI, IoT, data, Deep Learning, DeepLens, all the stuff that's been really trending has been really popular at the show. And the person behind that Amazon is Swami. He's the Vice President of Machine Learning at AWS, among other things, Deep Learning and data. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Stu: Good to see you. >> Excited to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. You're the star of the show. Your team put out some great announcements, congratulations. We're seeing new obstruction layers of complexity going away. You guys have made it easy to do voice, Machine Learning, all those great stuff. >> Swami: Yeah. >> What are you most excited about, so many good things? Can you pick a child? I don't want to pick my favorite child among all my children. Our goal is to actually put Machine Learning capabilities in the hands of all developers and data scientists. That's why, I mean, we want to actually provide different kinds of capabilities right from like machine developers who want to build their own Machine Learning models. That's where SageMakers and n21 platform that lets people build, train and deploy these models in a one-click fashion. It supports all popular Deep Learning frameworks. It can be TensorFlow, MXNet or PyCharm. We also not only help train but automatically tune where we use Machine Learning for Machine Learning to build these things. It's very powerful. The other thing we're excited about is the API services that you talked about, the new obstruction layer where app developers who do not want to know anything about Machine Learning but they want to transcribe their audio to convert from speech to text, or translate it or understand the text, or analyze videos. The other thing coming from academia where I'm excited about is I want to teach developers and students Machine Learning in a fun fashion, where they should be excited about Machine Learning. It's such a transformative capability. That's why actually we built a device meant for Machine Learning in a hands-on fashion that's called DeepLens. We have developers right on re:Invent where from the time they take to un-box to actually build a computer with an application to build Hotdog or Not Hotdog, they can do it in less than 10 minutes. It's an amazing time to be a developer. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Oh my God, Swami. I've had so many friends that have sat through that session. First of all, the people that sit through it they get like a kit. >> Swami: That's awesome. >> Stu: They're super excited. Last year it was the Ecodot and everybody with new skills. This year, DeepLens definitely seems to be the one that all the geeks are playing with, really programing stuff. There's a bunch of other things here, but definitely some huge buzz and excitement. >> That's awesome, glad to hear. >> Talk about the culture at Amazon. Because I know in covering you guys for so many years and now being intimate with a lot of the developers in your teams. You guys just don't launch products, you actually listen to customers. You brought up Machine Learning for developers. What specifically jumped out at you from talking to customers around making it easier? It was too hard, was it, or it was confined to hardcore math driven data scientists? Was it just the thirst and desire for Machine Learning? Or you're just doing this for side benefits, it's like a philanthropy project? >> No, in Amazon we don't build technology because it's cool. We build technology because that's what our customers want. Like 90 to 95% of our roadmap is influenced by listening to customers. The other 5 to 10% is us reading between the lines. One of the things I actually ... When I started playing with Machine Learning, having built a bunch of database storage and analytics products. When I started getting into Deep Learning and various things I realized there's a transformative capability of these technologies. It was too hard for developers to use it on a day to day fashion, because these models are too hard to build and train. Our data now, the right level of obstruction. That's why we actually think of it as in a multi-layered strategy where we cater to export practitioners and data scientists. For them we have SageMaker. Then for app developers who do not want to know anything about Machine Learning they say, "I'll give you an audio file, transcribe it for me," or "I'll give you text, get me insights or translate it." For them we actually we actually provide simple to use API services, so that they can actually get going without having to know anything about what is TensorFlow or PyCharm. >> TensorFlow got a lot of attention, because that really engaged the developer community in the current Machine Learning, because we're like, "Oh wow, this is cool." >> Swami: Yeah. >> Then it got, I won't say hard to use, but it was high end. Are you guys responding to TensorFlow in particular or you're responding to other forces? What was the driver? >> In amazon we have been using Machine Learning for like 20 years. Since the year of like 1995 we have been leveraging Machine Learning for recommendation engine, fulfillment center where we use robots to pick packages and then Elixir of course and Amazon Go. One of the things we actually hear is while frameworks like TensorFlow or PyCharm, MXNet or PyCharm is cool. It is just too hard for developers to make use of it. We actually don't mind, our users use Cafe or TensorFlow. We want the, to be successful where they take from idea to product shell. And when we talk to developers, this process took anywhere from 6 to 18 months and it should not be this hard. We wanted to do what AWS did to IT industry for compute storage and databases. We want to do the same for Machine Learning by making it really easy to get started and consumer does in utility. That was our intel. >> Swami, I wonder if you can tell us. We've been talking for years about the flywheel of customers for Amazon. What are the economies of scale that you get for the data that you have there. I think of all the training of all the Machine Learning, the developers. How can you leverage the economies of scale that Amazon has in all those kind of environments? >> When you look at Machine Learning, Machine Learning tends to be mostly the icing on the cake. Even when we talk to the expert professors who are the top 10 scientists in the world, the data that goes into the Machine Learning is going to be the determining factor for how good it is in terms of how well you train it and so forth. This is where data scientists keep saying the breath of storage and database and analytics offerings that exist really matter for them to build highly accurate models. When you talk about not just the data, but actually the underlying database technology and storage technology really is important. S3 is the world's most powerful data leg that exists that is highly secure, reliable, scalable and cost effective. We really wanted to make sure customers like Glacier Cloud who store high resolution satellite imagery on S3 and glacier. We wanted them to leverage ML capabilities in a really easy one-click fashion. That's important. >> I got to ask you about the roadmap, because you say customers are having input on that. I would agree with you that that would be true, because you guys have a track record there. But I got to put the dots that I'm connecting in my mind right now forward by saying, you guys ... And telegraphing here certainly heard well, Furner say it and Andy, data is key and opening up that data and we're seeing New Relic here, Sumo Logic. They're sharing anonymous data from usage, workloads really instructive. Data is instructive for the marketplace, but you got to feed the models on the data. The question for you is you guys get so much data. It's really a systems management dream it's an application performance dream. You got more use case data. Are you going to open that up and what's the vision behind it? Because it seems like you could offer more and more services. >> Actually we already have. If you look at x-rays and service that we launched last year. That is one of the coolest capabilities, even I am a developer during the weekends when I cool out. Being able to dive into specific capabilities so one of the performance insights where is the borderline. It's so important that actually we are able to do things like x-raying into an application. We are just getting started. The Cloud transformed how we are building applications. Now with Machine Learning, what is going to happen is we can even do various things like ... Which is going to be the borderline on what kind of datasets. It's just going to be such an amazing time. >> You can literally reimagine applications that are once dominant with all the data you have, if you opened it up and then let me bring my data in. Then that will open up a bigger aperture of data. Wouldn't that make the Machine Learning and then AI more effective? >> Actually, you already can do similar things with Lex. Lex, think of it as it's an automatic speech recognition natural language understanding where we are pre-trained on our data. But then to customize it for your own chat bots or voice applications, you can actually add your own intents and several things and we customize it underlying Deep Learning model specific to your data. You're leveraging the amount of data that we have trained in addition to specifically tuning for yours. It's only going to get better and better, to your point. >> It's going to happen, it's already happening. >> It's already happening, yeah. >> Swami, great slate of announcements on the Machine Learning side. We're seeing the products get all updated. I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about the human side of things. Because we've seen a lot of focus, right, it's not just these tools but it's the tools and the people putting those together. How does Amazon going to help the data scientists, help retrain, help them get ready to be able to leverage and work even better with all these tools? >> Machine Learning, we have seen some amazing usage of how developers are using Machine Learning. For example, Mariness Analytics is a non-profit organization that its goal is to fight human trafficking. They use recognition which is our image processing. They do actually identify persons of interest and victims so that they can notify law enforcement officer. Like Royal National Institute of Blind. They actually are using audio text to speech to generate audio books for visually impaired. I'm really excited about all the innovative applications that we can do to simply improve our everyday lives using Machine Learning, and it's such in early days. >> Swami, the innovation is endless in my mind. But I want to get two thoughts from you, one startup and one practitioner. Because we've heard here in theCUBE, people come here and saying, "I can do so much more now. "I've got my EMR, it's so awesome. "I can do this solving problem." Obviously making it easy to use is super cool, that's one. I want to get your thoughts on where that goes next. And two, startups. We're seeing a lot of startups retooling on Cloud economics. I call it post-2013 >> Swami: Yeah. >> They don't need a lot of money, they can hit critical mass. They can get market product, market fit earlier. They can get economic value quicker. So they're changing the dynamics. But the worry is, how do I leverage the benefit of Amazon? Because we know Amazon is going to grow and all Clouds grow and just for you guys. How do I play with Amazon? Where is the white space? How do I engage, do I just ...? Once I'm on the platform, how do I become the New Relic or slunk? How can I grow my marketplace and differentiate? Because Amazon might come out with something similar. How do I stay in that cadence of growth, even a startup? >> If you see in AWS we have tens of thousands of partners of course, right from ISV, SIs and whatnot. Software industry is an amazing industry where it's not like winner take all market. For example, in the document management space, even though we have S3 and WorkDocs, it doesn't mean Dropbox and Box are not successful either, and so forth. What we provide in AWS is the same infrastructure for any startup or for my team, even though I build probably many of the underlying infrastructure. Nowadays for my AI team, it's literally like a startup except I probably stay in an AWS building, but otherwise I don't get any internal APIs, it's the same API so easy to S3. >> John: It's a level playing field. >> It's a level playing field. >> By the way, everyone should know, he wrote DynamoDB. As an intern or was that ...? (Swami laughs) And then SQS, rockstar techy here, so it's great to have. You're what we call a tech athlete. Great to have you on. No white space, just go for it. >> Innovation is the key. The key thing, what we have seen amazing startups who have done exceptionally well is they intently listen to customers and innovate and really look for what it matters for their customers and go for it. >> The biggest buzz of the show from your group. What's your biggest buzz from the show here? DeepLens? >> DeepLens has been ... Our idea was to actually come up with a fun way to learn Machine Learning. Machine Learning, it used to be, even until recently actually as well as last week, it was actually an intimate thing for developers to learn while there is, it's all the buzz. It's not really straight forward for developers to use it. We thought, "Hey, what is a fun way for developers "to get engaged and build Machine Learning?" That's why we actually can see DeepLens so that you can actually build fun applications. I talked about Hotdog, Not Hotdog. I'm personally going to be building what I call as a Bear Cam. Because I live in the suburbs of Seattle where we actually have bears visiting our backyard digging our trash. I want to actually have DeepLens with a pre-train model that I'm going to train to detect bears. That it sends me a message through SQS and SNS so I get a text. >> Here's an idea we want to do, maybe your team can build it for us. CUBE Cam, we put the DeepLens here and then as anyone goes by, if they're a Twitter follower of theCUBE they can send me a message. (John and Swami laughing) Swami, great stuff. Deep Learning again, more goodness coming. >> Swami: That's awesome. >> What are you most excited about? >> In Amazon we have a phrase called, "It's Day One." Even though we are a 22-year-old company, I jokingly tell my team that, "It's day one for us, "except we just woke up and we haven't even "had a cup of coffee yet." We have just scratched the surface with Machine Learning, there is so much stuff to do. I'm super excited about this space. >> Your goals for this year is what? What's your goals? >> Our goals for this year was to put Machine Learning capabilities in the hands of all developers of all skill levels. I think we have done pretty well so far I think. >> Well, congratulations Swami here on theCUBE. Vice president of Machine Learning and a lot more, all those applications that were announced Wednesday along with the Deep Leaning and the AI and the DeepLens all part of his innovative team here at Amazon. Changing the game is theCUBE doing our part bringing data to you, video and more coverage. Go to Siliconangle.com for all the stories, Wikibon.com for research and of course theCUBE.net. I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching, we'll be right back.

(fun, relaxing music) >> Announcer: Live from the Javits Center, in New York City, it's The Cube. Covering Inforum 2017. Brought to you by Infor. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Inforum 2017, I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Stephan Scholl, he is the president of Infor. Thanks so much for joining us. >> My pleasure. >> For returning to The Cube My pleasure, yeah, three years in a row, I think, or four now, yeah. >> Indeed. >> Well, we skipped a year in-between. >> That's right! Three years. Anyway, it's good to be here. >> This has been a hugely successful conference. We're hearing so much about the growth and momentum of Infor. Can you unpack this a little bit for our viewers? >> Yeah, I mean... People always forget, we only started this aggressive Cloud journey literally three years ago. When we announced at Inforum in New Orleans that we were pivoting the company to Infor industry-based CloudSuites, everybody looked at us and said, "Well, that's an interesting pivot." "Why are you doing that?" Well, as I said yesterday, we really saw a market dynamic that you see retail just getting crushed by what Amazon was doing, and it was obvious, today, but then it wasn't so obvious, but that was going to happen everywhere, and so we really got aggressive on believing we could put together a very different approach to tackling enterprise software. Everybody is so fatigued from buying from our competitors traditional, perpetual software, and then you end up modifying the hell out of it, and then you end up spending a gazillion dollars, and it takes forever, and then if it does work, you're stuck on old technology already, and you never get to the next round of evolution. So we said why don't we build CloudSuites, take the last model industry functionality that we have, put it in a Cloud, make it easy for our customers to implement it, and then we'll run it for them. And then, by the way, when the newest innovation comes up, we'll upgrade them automatically. That's what Cloud's about. So, that's where we saw that transformation happening. So in three years, we went from two percent, as I said, to 55 plus percent of our revenue. And, by the way, we're not a small company. Nobody at our size and scale has ever done that in enterprise software. So what an accomplishment. >> So a lot of large companies, some that you used to work for, are really slow. And, you know what, lot of times that's okay, 'cause IT tends to be really slow, as you move to the Cloud, and move to the situation where, "Okay, guys, new release coming!" What are your customers saying about that, how are you managing that sort of pace of change, that flywheel of Amazon, and you're now innovating on and pushing to your climate? >> Well, they're excited. And, I'll tell you, I remember standing up in Frankfurt, Germany, 18 months ago for a keynote, and said the Cloud is coming, I almost got kicked out of Germany. (laughing) They said it's not going to happen in Germany, "No, we're an engineering pedigree," "We're going to be on premise." >> "You don't understand the German market!" >> "You don't understand our marketplace!" And, we're really close friends with Andy Jassy at AWS, the CEO. The AWS guys are unbelievable, and innovative, and we said, "You know, you guys got to build" "your next data center in Frankfurt." So they put hundreds of millions of dollars investment in, built a data center. What's the fastest growing data center in Europe, right now, for them? Frankfurt! The German market, for us, our pipeline is tenfold increase from what it was a year ago. So, it's working in Germany, and it's happening on a global basis, we have, I think yesterday 75 customers from Saudi, from Dubai, from all the Middle East. Cloud is a great equalizer. And don't underestimate... I'll take luck to our advantage anytime. The luck part is, there's fatigue out there, they're exhausted, they've spent so much money over the last 20, 30 years, and never reached the promise of what they were sold then, and so now, with all the digital disruption, I think of the business competitive challenges that they have to deal with. I mean, I don't care, you could be in Wichita, Kansas building up an e-commerce website, and compete with a company in Saudi tomorrow. The barest entry in manufacturing, retail, look at government agencies, we're doing nine-figure transformations in the Cloud with public sector agencies. Again, two years ago, they would've said never going to happen. >> Rebecca: Yet the government does spend that kind of... >> Mike Rogers, the CIO, was saying to us, "Look at all the technical debt" "that we've accumulated over the years," "and it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse." "If we don't bite the bullet and move now," "it's just going to take that much longer." >> That's right. And they're leap-frogging. I mean, I'm so excited, government agencies! I mean, there's even some edicts in some places where Cloud-only. I mean, this whole Gold Coast opportunity, 40 plus different applications in Australia, all going into the Cloud to handle all the complexities they have around the commonwealth games that they're trying to deal with. I mean, just huge transformations on a global basis. >> At this conference, we're hearing about so many different companies, and, as you said, government agencies, municipalalities, transforming their business models, transforming their approaches. What are some of your favorite transformation stories? >> My favorite one that we're doing is Travis Perkins. John Carter, I think you guys maybe even interviewed him last year when he was here. CEO. Old, staid distribution business, and taking a whole new fresh approach. Undoing 40 to 50 different applications, taking his entire business, putting it online. He deals with contracts... So, they're the Home Depot of the UK market, and right now, if you drive up into that car port and you want to order something, it's manual! Sticky notes, phones, dumb terminals, I need five windows, I need five roofs, I need five pieces of wood. Everything is just a scurry. He wants to put it on, when you drive up next year, you're on an iPad, what would you like? Oh, by the way, you want to make a custom order on that window frame? You want to make green, yellow, red, you want to order different tiles of roof styling? Custom orders is the future! You, as a contractor, walking into that organization, want to make a custom order. That, today, is very complicated for a company like that to handle. So, the future is about undoing all that, embracing the custom order process, giving you a really unique, touchless buying process, where it's all on an iPad, it's all automated. You know what? Telling you here's your five new windows, here's a new frame want on it, and, by the way, you're going to get it in five days, and three hours, and 21 minutes. Deliver it to your door. And, by the way, these guys are huge. They're one of the biggest distribution companies in all of the United Kingdom, and so that's one of my favorite stories. >> Can we go over some of the metrics that you've been sharing. I know it's somewhat repetitive, but I'd like to get it on-record. There's 55%, 84, 88, over 1100, 3x, 60%, maybe start with the 60%. I think it's bookings grown, right? >> That's right, yeah. License sales growth last year alone. And, you know what, I looked at... You know, I see it, Paul always keeps me honest, but I think I can say it anyways, which is, I looked at everybody else. You look at the... I don't want you to mention any competitors' names, but you look at the top five competitors that we have, we grew faster than they did last year on sales of CloudSuite. >> Dave: Okay, so that's 60% bookings growth on Cloud. >> Correct. That's right. Yeah, I mean, when you think of our competitors, I saw 40s, I saw some 30s, I saw maybe 52 at the next one down. So, people don't think of us that way, so we were, at the enterprise scale, the fastest-growing Cloud company in the world. >> Okay, and then, 3x, that's 3x the number of customers who bought multiple products, is that correct? >> Correct. That's exactly right. So think about that transformation. They used to buy from us one product, feature-function rich, great, but now they're buying five products, eight products from us. So 3x increase, year over year, already happening. >> Okay, and then there was 1100 plus, is Go-Lives. >> People always ask us, "You're selling stuff." "Are they using it, is it working?" So you got to follow up with delivery, so we're spending a ton of money on certification, training, and ablement, look at the SI community, look at the... Deloitte, Accenture, Capgemini, and Grand Thornton. Four of the major SIs in the world, that weren't here last year, are all here this year. Platinum sponsors. So, delivery on Go Lives, the SI community is embracing us, helping us, I mean, I can't do hundred million dollar transformations on my own with these customers. I need Accenture, I need Deloitte. Look at Koch! Koch's going to be a massive transformation for financials, human-capital management, and so I've got Accenture and Deloitte helping us, taking a hundred plus billion dollar company on those two systems. >> And then 84, 88, is number of... >> Live customers, I'm sorry, total customers that we have in the Cloud. >> Cloud customers, okay, not total customers. >> No, no, we have 90 thousand plus customers, and then 84, 85 hundred of them are Cloud-based customers. >> You got a ways to go, then, to convert some of those customers. >> Well, that's our opportunity, that's exactly right. >> And then 55% of revenue came from the Cloud, obviously driven by the Cloud bookings growth. >> That's right. Exactly. So, I mean, just the acceleration, I mean, as I said, when we started this thing in New Orleans, two or three percent. Now, tipping point, revenue, I mean, it's one thing to sell software, but to actually turn it into revenue? Nobody at an enterprise scale has done 2% to 55% at our size. Lots of companies in the hundred million dollar range, small companies, you know, if we were a stand-alone Cloud company, we'd be one of the largest Cloud companies in the world. >> So the narrative from Oracle, I wonder if you can comment on this, is that the core of enterprise apps has not moved to the Cloud, and we, Oracle, are the guys to move it there, 'cause we are the only ones with that end-to-end Cloud on prem to Cloud strategy. And most companies can't put core apps, enterprise apps in the Cloud, especially on Amazon. So, what do you say to that? >> Well, it's 'cause they don't have the applications to do that. Oracle doesn't have the application horsepower. They don't have industry-based application suites. If you think of what fusion is, it's a mishmash of all the applications that they bought. There's no industry capability. >> Dave: It's horizontal, is what you're saying. >> It's horizontal. Oracle is fighting a battle against Amazon, they declared war against AWS. I'm glad they're doing that, go ahead! I mean, I don't know how you're going to do that, but they want to fight the infrastructure game. For us, infrastructure is commoditized. We're fighting the business applications layer game, and so, when you look at SAP or Oracle or anybody else, they have never done what we've done in our heritage, which is take key critical mission functionality for aerospace and defense, or automotive, we have the last mile functionality. I mean, I have companies like Ferrari, on of the most complicated companies, we've talked about those guys for years, no modifications! BAE, over in the UK, building the F-35 fighter jets and the Typhoon war planes. It doesn't get any more complicated than building an F-35 fighter jet. No modifications in their software, that they have with us. You can only build Cloud-based solutions if you don't modify the software. Oracle doesn't have that. Never had it. They're not a manufacturing pedigreed organization. SAP's probably more analogous to that, but even for SAP, they only have one complete big product sect covering retail, distribution, finance, it's the same piece of software they send to a bank, that they send to a retailer, that they send to a manufacturer. We don't do that. That's been our core forever. >> So your dogma is no custom mods, because you're basically saying you can't succeed in the Cloud with custom mods. >> Yeah. I mean, we have an extensive ability platform to do some neat things if you need to do that, but generally speaking, otherwise it's just lipstick on the pig if you're running modified applications. That's called hosting, and that's what these guys are largely doing. >> You know, a lot of people count hosting as Cloud. >> That's the game they're playing, right? >> They throw everything in the Cloud kitchen sink. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> And as we've talked with you before, we've spent billions... We all are R&D's at the application layer. We do some work in the integration layer, and so on, but most of our money is spent in the last mile, which, Oracle and SAP, they're all focused on HANA and infrastructure, and system speed, and performance, and all the stuff that we view as absolutely being commoditized. >> But that's really attractive to the SIs, the fact that they don't go that last mile, so why is it that the SIs are suddenly sort of coming to Infor? >> Well, you know what, because they finally see there is a lot of revenue still on the line in terms of change management, business-process re-engineering. You take a company like Travis Perkins, change their entire model of doing business. There isn't just modification revenue, or integration revenue, there is huge dollars to be had on change management, taking the company to CEO John Carter by the hand, and saying, "Here's how you're going to transform" "your entire business process." That more than makes up in many cases high-value dollars than focused on changing a widget from green to yellow. >> And it's right in the wheelhouse of these big consultancies. >> And they're making good money on digital transformation, so what are the digital use cases? Look at Accenture, they're did a great job. I think 20 plus percent of their business now is all coming from digital. That didn't exist three, four years ago. >> Well, you have a lot of historical experience from your Oracle days of working with those large SIs, they were critical, but they were doing different type of work then, and is it your premise that a lot of that's going away and that's shifting toward. >> The voice of the customer is everything, and it may take time, you can snow a customer once, which we've already done in this industry of software. We told them buy generic-based software, Oracle or SAP, modify it with an SI, take five years, implement it for a hundred million dollars, get stuck on this platform, and if you're lucky, maybe upgrade in ten years. Whoever does that today, as a playbook, as a customer, and if an SI can sell that, I'm not buying that. You think any customers I know today are buying that vision? I don't think so. >> Dave: Right there with the outsourcing business. >> Another thing that's come out of this conference is attention to the Brooklyn Nets deal. Can you talk a little big about it, it's very cool. >> I love those guys. >> Dave: We're from Boston, we love the Brooklyn Nets, too. >> Rebecca: They can play us anytime. Every day. >> Dave: For those draft picks. >> Bread on those guys. You know what it is. And Shaun, the GM, the energy... I use that a lot with my own guys. Brooklyn grit. And they're willing to look and upturn every aspect of the game to be more competitive. And so, we're in there with our technology, looking at every facet, what are they eating? What's the EQ stuff? Emotional occlusion. How's that team collaboration coming together? And then mapping it to... They have the best 3-D cameras on the court, so put positioning, and how are they aligning to each other? Who's doing the front guard in terms of holding the next person back so they can have enough room to do a three-point shot. Where should the three-point shot come from? So, taking all the EQ stuff, the IQ stuff, the performance, the teamwork, putting it all into a recipe for success. These guys are, I'm going to predict it here, these guys are going to rock it next couple years as a team. >> But it's not just what goes on in the court, too, it's also about fan engagement, too. >> All that. Well, fair enough, I get all excited about just making them a much better team, but the whole fan experience, walking into a place knowing that if I get up now, the washroom line isn't 15 miles long, and at the cash line for a beer isn't going to take me 20 minutes, that I'm on my app, you actually have all the information and sensors in place to know that, hey, right now's a great time, aisle number four, queue number three, is a one-minute wait for a beer, go. Or have runners, everything's on your phone, they don't do enough service. So there's a huge revenue opportunity along with it, from a business point of view, but I would also say is a customer service element. How many times have we sat in a game and go, "I'm not getting up there." (laughing) Unless you're sitting in the VIP area, well, there's revenue to be had all over the place. >> Yeah, they're missing out on our beer money, yeah. >> It's ways for a stadium services, which are essentially a liquor distribution system. >> Exactly right. But to do that, you got to connect point of sales systems, you got to connect a lot of components, centers in the bathroom, I mean you got to do a lot of work, so we're going to create the fan experience of the future with them. And preferences, the fact that they that when you walk in past the door with your app and if you have Brooklyn Nets app, that we know who your favorite player is, and you get a little text that says, Hey, you know what, 10% discount on the next shirt from your favorite player. Things like that. Making a personal connection with you about what you like is going to change the game. And that's happening everywhere. In retail... Everybody wants to have a one-to-one relationship. You want to order your Nike shoes online with a green lace and a red lace on the right, Nike allows you to do that. You want to order a shirt that they'll make for you with the different emblems on it and different technology to it, those are things they're doing, too. So, a very one-to-one relationship. >> Well, it's data, it's more than data, it's insights, and you guys are, everybody's a data company, but you're really becoming a data and insight-oriented company. Did you kind of stumble into that, or is this part of the grand plan six years ago, or, how'd you get here? >> Listen, this whole... I mean, to do Cloud-based solutions by industry is not just to solve for applications going from infrastructure on-premise to off-premise. What does it allow you to do? Well, if you're in AWS, I can run ten thousand core products... I can run a report in ten minutes with AWS that would take you a week, around sales information, customer information. Look at all the Netflix content. You log in on Netflix, "Suggestions for You". It's actually pretty accurate, isn't it? >> Scarily accurate, sometimes, yes. >> It's pretty smart what goes into the algorithm that looks at your past. Unfortunately, I log into my kid's section, and it has my name on it and I get all these wonderful recommendations for kids. But that's the kind of stuff that we're talking about. Customers need that. It's about real-time, it's not looking backwards anymore, it's about real-time decisioning, and analytics, and artificial intelligence, AI is the future, for sure. >> So more, more on the future, this is really fun, listening to you talk, because you are the president, and you have a great view of what's going on. What will we be talking about next year, at this time. Well, it won't be quite this time, it will be September, but what do you think? >> I think what you're going to see is massive global organizations up on stage, like the ones I mentioned, Travis Perkins, a Safeway, a Gold Coast, a Hertz. Hertz is under attack as a company. The entry point into the rental car business was very very hard. Who's going to go buy 800 thousand cars and get in the rental business, open ten thousand centers? You don't need to do that anymore today! >> Dave: Software! >> It's called software, the application business, so their business model is under attack. We're feverishly working with their CEO and their executive team and their board on redefining the future of Hertz. So, you're going to see here, next year, the conversation with a company like Hertz rebounding and growing and being successful, and... The best defense is a good offense, so they're on the offensive! They're going to use their size, their scale. You look at the retailers, I mean, I love the TAL story, and they may make one out of every six shirts. Amazon puts the same shirt online that they sell for $39.99, TAL's trying to sell for $89.99. They're saying enough of that. They built these beautiful analyzers, sensors, where you walk into this little room, and they do a sensor of a hundred different parts of your body, So they're going to get the perfect shirt for you. So, it's an experience center. So you walk into this little center, name's escaping me now, but they're going to take all the measurements, like a professional Italian tailor would do, you walk in, it's all automatic, you come out of there, they know all the components of your body, which is a good thing and a bad thing, sometimes, right, (laughing) they'll know it all, and then you go to this beautiful rack and you're going to pick what color do you want. Do you want a different color? So everything is moving to custom, and you'll pay more for that. Wouldn't you pay for a customized shirt that fits your body perfectly, rather than an off-the-rack kind of shirt at $89.99? That's how you compete with the generic-based e-commerce plays that are out there. That use case of TAL is going to happen in every facet. DSW, the DSW ones, these experience centers, the shoeless aisles, that whole experience. You walking in as... The most loyal women shoppers are DSW with their applications, right. >> Rebecca: (laughs) Yes, yes. >> And how many times have you tried a shoe on that doesn't fit properly, or it's not the one you want, or they don't have your size, or you want to make some configurations to it. You got one, too! >> Ashley came by and gave me this, 'cause I love DSW. >> I mean, they're what, one of the biggest shoe companies in the world not standing still, and Ashley is transforming, they went live on financials in like 90 days in the Cloud? Which for them, that kind of innovation happening that fast is unbelievable. So next year, the whole customer experience side is going to be revolutionary for these kinds of exciting organizations. So, rather than cowering from this digital transformation, they're embracing it. We're going to be the engine of digital transformation for them. I get so excited to have major corporations completely disrupting themselves to change their market for themselves moving forward. >> What is the Koch investment meant to you guys, can you talk about that a little bit? I mean, obviously, we hear two billion dollars, and blah, blah, blah, but can you go a little deeper for us? >> I mean, forget all the money stuff, for a minute, just the fact that we're part of a company that is, went from 40 million when Charles Koch started, taking over from his family, and went to 100 plus billion. Think about that innovation. Think about the horsepower, the culture, the aggressiveness, the tenacity, the will to win. We already had that. To combine that with their sheer size and scale is something that is exciting for me, one. Two is they view technology as the next big chapter for them. I mean, again, not resting on your laurels, I'm already 100 billion, they want to grow to 150, 200 billion, and they see technology as the root to getting there. Automating their plants, connecting all their components of their employees, gain the right employees to the right place, so workforce management, all the HR stuff that we're doing on transformation, the financials, getting a global consolidated view across 100 billion dollar business on our systems. That's transformation! That's big, big business for us, and what a great reference to have! A guy like Steve Fellmeier up yesterday, he'll be up here next year talking about how he's using us to transform their business. There's not many 100 billion dollar companies around, right, so what a great reference point for us to have them as a customer, and as a proved point of success. >> Well, we'll look forward to that in September, and seeing you back here next year, too. >> Look forward to it. >> Stephan, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, appreciate it, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante, that is it for us and The Cube at Inforum 2017. See you next time.

>> Announcer: From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow, Knowledge17, brought to you by ServiceNow. (upbeat music) >> In 2004, Fred Luddy had a vision. He was the founder of ServiceNow, and his vision was to create software that was really simple to use, to automate workflows within organizations. Two years later in 2006, was the first ServiceNow Knowledge. He rented out a room at a hotel that could support 50 people. 30 minutes before that event, nobody was in that room. By the time, the time came to start the first ServiceNow Knowledge, 85 people were in the room, talking to each other about this transformation that was occurring in their business. And as they started talking to each other Fred Luddy stepped back and said, you know what, to have a successful conference I just need to let people talk to each other. And here we are today, in 2017. 15,000 people at the ServiceNow Knowledge. Welcome to Orlando, everybody. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with my co-host Jeff Frick. This is, I believe, our fifth Knowledge, Jeff. >> Just look at that. 14, 15, 16, 17. Fourth or fifth. (laughing) >> Fourth or, no. We started at the Aria Hotel in Las Vegas, with about 4,000 people and now we're up to 15,000. This is a story of a company that did an IPO right around 100 million, brought in an excellent CEO, Frank Slootman. In six years his company has exploded to 1.4 billion dollars. They're on a path to do 4 billion dollars of revenue by 2020. They've got a 17 billion dollar market cap. If you look at software companies over a billion dollars, there is no software company that's growing as fast as ServiceNow, 30 plus percent a year, and throwing off as much free cash flow as ServiceNow, growing at about 45%. So they are incomparable in terms of comparing to other software companies. They're on a tear, the stock prices are up. Lo and behold Frank Slootman, the CEO, is getting out at the top. Bringing in a new CEO, John Donahoe. I feel like it's you know, an NFL quarterback, It's Bill Walsh handing the reins over to George Seifert. Maybe, and as I say, getting out at the top. John Donahoe, totally different style. We're going to be talking to him on theCUBE, just finishing up his keynote now. But, Jeff, here we are. Our fourth year, I guess, at Knowledge. And, pretty amazing transformation in this company. >> It is a pretty amazing transformation. We talk a lot about big data, and we talk a lot about cloud in many of the shows we go to but what we probably don't talk about enough, and we are going to for the next three days, is the success of SASS apps. And, as I always like to joke, there's a 60 storey building going up in San Francisco that Salesforce is completing to show you the power of SASS apps. And I think, with the ServiceNow story, is, more of that same story, you know. They started out with a relatively simple idea, Fred wanted to make work easier. And he started with the ITSM because that was an easy place to get going. But really, it's about simplifying workflow in a SASS application, letting people get work done easier. And it's pretty interesting, Because now, as you look around, day of the conference, they've got five bubbles, or five balls, or five posters, to really symbolize how they've moved beyond just ITSM into HR, customer service, biz apps and security. And applying the same foundation, the same method, the same software, to get after more and more of the workloads that are happening inside the enterprise. >> From a company perspective, this story here is about execution. The company, as I said, I gave you, shared with you the financials, they've penetrated the Global 2000, over 50% of their average contract value comes from the Global 2000. And there's significant upside there, as well. In addition, their average contract value is growing very dramatically. I was speaking to some customers and asking them, what was your deal size when you first started with ServiceNow? They were like, it was small, it was like 60,000 contracts. Now they have many, many customers, well over a million dollars, several customers over five million dollars, so this is a company that is largely focused on large organizations, but also governments and mid-sized companies. Not small businesses, yet, Jeff. You and I have been dying to get a hold of ServiceNow for small business. They announced Express a couple years ago, but what Express really was, was a way for larger companies to try, you know, get their feet wet before they really jump all in. So, we are still waiting for that day, but in the meantime, ServiceNow has a lot to do. As they say, their goal now is to be four billion by 2020. It feels like, when we first covered ServiceNow Knowledge, we said wow, this company reminds us of the early days of Salesforce, they've got this platform you can develop on this platform, you know, call it paths, or whatever you want to call it. But, we at the time said they were on a collision course with Salesforce. Now, there's plenty of room for both of those companies in the marketplace. Salesforce obviously focused predominantly on Salesforce automation, ServiceNow really on workflow automation. But you can see, though, two markets coming together. >> Right, right. >> People really, you know SalesForce, we try to use it for a lot of different things. And so giant markets built on the cloud built with flexibility to add volumes we started at problem change management help desk type of things within IT service management, and we're seeing that expand dramatically. And one of the things that you've always emphasized, Jeff, is the ecosystem. Take us back to the early days, of when we walked the floor of the original Knowledge that we did, that was four or five years ago. The companies that you saw there are much different than what you see today. >> But the passion is still the same, and that's why we've loved coming to this thing for so many years. It's because it's one of the companies that has a real passion. There was a shout-out to Fred, which is where it all started you know, I think Frank did a great job continuing that, and now clearly John is a really polished guy. Did his time at Bane, eBay, which he talked about as a community based environment, and that was built on the strength of it. But the other part in terms of their expansion, their TAM expansion, which is always a popular topic is, John talked about IT living at the intersection of interconnectedness across departments. And they've really done a good job of leveraging that. And he talked about a simple HR on-boarding process, to highlight all the departments that are taught. Securities, facilities, you need to get your badge, you need to get your laptop, you need to get checked in. So, they're leveraging this and coming up from the bottom, and we talk about IT being an agent of transformation and not a cost center, well what better way to do that than to continue to simplify all these basically mundane processes. But, again, just start eating them up, and pulling more and more processes into the ServiceNow platform. >> The key to success from a customer standpoint is to adopt a single CMDB, and to adopt a service catalog. Jeff, when we first started following ServiceNow, and we talked to the customers, not everybody was adopting a single CMDB. That was a very political, sort of football. When I talk to customers today, many more, just anecdotally, have adopted the CMDB. What that gives the customer and ServiceNow, is tons of leverage. Because you essentially have that single source of truth, and then you can use that as a ripple effect across all the other innovations that you drive with ServiceNow. So, for example, you start with help desk and change management and problem management, and then you move onto, maybe, IT operations management. And you're automating those tasks. Then might you move onto HR. You might move onto logistics, or marketing. You're now dealing with security. The perfect example they often give is on-boarding. When you on-board a new employee, there's six or seven or eight departments that you have to talk to. There's at least eight, nine, 10 processes. You got to order your laptop, you got to get a phone, you've got to get your office, you've got to get on-boarded to HR. All of these things that have to occur, that are generally separate phone calls, or you're walking down the hall. ServiceNow when you on-board, they give you the example, they're eating their own dog food. You go into the portal and you do all these things. And it has a ripple effect because of that single CMDB, throughout the organization. And so that's given ServiceNow a lot of leverage within these companies. What you hear from customers is: one, it's complicated to install this stuff. And in the early days especially when there weren't as many experts in ServiceNow. So it used to take a couple years to implement this. Second is your price is too high. You know, you hear that a lot. If that's your biggest hurdle, you're in good shape. What ServiceNow has to do in my view, Jeff, is two things. One, is got to tap the ecosystem. And you've seen companies like CSX now, DX Technology, and Accenture, KPMG, EY, join the fray. I always joke that SIs love to eat at the trough. Well, ServiceNow is becoming a big, robust ecosystem, with a giant TAM. So, ServiceNow has to lean on those partners very heavily to go in and accelerate implementation, convey best practices. ServiceNow has a program called Inspire. Which is a lost leader. It's one of the best freebies in the industry. Where they will go in and share best practice with their largest customers. And in doing that in conjunction with the SIs, to accelerate adoption on the price side, this company and I think John Donahoe is perfect for this, really has to increasingly emphasize the value. I think to date Jeff, it's been a comparison. Well, I can get this from BMC for this much, or HPE for this much, or IBM's got versions of that. Or, other competitors in this space. ServiceNow has essentially, their pricing has been compared to them. What they have to do is shift the conversation from cost, and price, to the value of the delivery. >> Biggest surprise. You got to spend a little day, kind of, behind the curtain in the analyst day. Biggest surprise that came out of that, for you? >> I don't know if it's a shocker, but it was certainly underscored, is the actual amount of upside that this company has, because they have, you know, penetrated the Global 2000 pretty substantially. But what struck me was their ability to add new capabilities, and add, expand their TAM. You know, I think I wrote a piece in 2013 basically sizing the TAM. When ServiceNow first IPOed, Gartner came out and said this is a dead market, help desk is an 8 billion dollar market, where are they going? I followed that up with a piece that said you know, this TAM is quite large, it's probably about 30 million. And I shared with the Wikibon audience how it could get there. I think I underestimated that. I think the TAM is 60 to 100 billion dollars. And the reason is that ServiceNow is able, Fred Luddy said when we first interviewed him, it's a platform. I took it out there and said here it is. >> Right. >> And the VC said what can you do with it? And he said anything! >> Revolutionized platforms. >> And they said, well, we're not going to fund it. Right, and so what they've been doing now is adding modules, and one of the ones I'm most excited about is security. And it's not competing with the FireEyes, and the Palo Alto Networks and the McAfees. It's actually automating a lot of the response to security. Automating the run book, automating the incident response. And doing so in a way that actually builds that ecosystem up, and is the glue that hangs it together. So, I guess the biggest eye-opener for me, Jeff, I talked earlier about the revenue growth, and the free cash flow growth, for a billion dollar plus company. What was surprising, the biggest eye opener or surprise to me, was the sustainability, in my opinion, of that upside. >> Right. But if it works, right, no one's going to give it up. And if the efficiencies are so much better, no one's going to give it up. I just, like, it does other huge categories of software, right? There's CRM which they're playing a little bit into not coming at it from kind of a sales perspective, but kind of coming at it from a customer management perspective. There's HR, which they're clearly going after. There's ERP, which they're probably not in a position to do in the immediate term. But there's still a lot of work getting done in large enterprises that can use a significant amount of customization, automation, with a little big data twist in the back. And, a real eye to the customer experiences, as the millennials more and more in the workforce, and the expected behavior of enterprise apps needs to mirror more, what we get on our phones. So I think they're in a pretty good position. >> TSM is the core. Everything stems from that. That's sort of the main-spring. And really, IT are their peeps, as Frank Slootman used to say. (laughing) ITOM, IT operations management, is another large and substantive business. Not as big as ITSM, but bigger than the others. Customer service management is a new and growing area. Security is a huge upside in my opinion. HR they've been at it for a while, we've talked to Jen Straud many times. And that's a big growth area. So these line-of-business entries are what's going to power the growth of ServiceNow going forward. There's also MNA, we haven't talked about MNA. When we first walked around the ecosystem on the exhibit floor at the Aria, four or five years ago, what we saw were a number of companies that could fit right into the ServiceNow platform, so one of the more prominent companies that ServiceNow acquired was DX Continuum. It's sort of an intelligent AI, machine-learning system. They're deploying that to help predict outages, part of their IT operations management service. And they'll use that elsewhere. So it's a very specific AI, we cover AI, we cover autonomous vehicles, and so forth. That's actually a great use case. So much of AI is fuzzy. So much of deep learning and machine learning is like how is that applied? Well, predictive analytics, to say OK this component is going to fail, replace it. Or, move the work off of that server. That's a real tangible use of AI. So we've seen ServiceNow use MNA. So what it does when it acquires a company, it has to go through cycles of re-platforming. ServiceNow doesn't just bolt on third-party products. We basically rebuild them from scratch on the platform. >> Right, right, ease into the platform. Which is what you have to do. Which is, kind of partner what SASS is all about, and in the early days of SASS there was a lot of push-back, because everybody thought they needed customization. Well, you didn't really need customization because you can't have 47 versions of the platform out there. What you need is the ability to configure. And have great configurability, and that's what good platforms do. And that's what Fred tried to build. And oh by the way I got to get started, so I went with the ITSM. So I think they're in a great position, Dave, and, as we know, cloud economics of which this is a big, giant application, get good, as the thing gets bigger and bigger and absorbs more and more functionality. Again, interesting change of management. We're going to talk to John, really look forward to it, fresh new energy. I think they're off to, off to the races, they've been racing for a while. (laughing) >> Some of the other things, let's talk about customers for a minute. So, some of the other things I get from customers when I talk to them is, and again, CMDB, and service catalog, those are two critical. If you want to get the value out of ServiceNow, you got to implement those two things, and others. But as well, this idea of multi-instance, allows you to upgrade at your own pace. What a lot of SASS companies will do, and we know this, as a customer of a lot of SASS companies, they say new upgrade coming, beware. And boom, the function hits, or often times hits, with a price increase. What ServiceNow claims is that because you're in a multi-instance, as opposed to a multi-tenet environment, you can plan your upgrades. Now, having said that, what a lot of customers will do, is they will try to avoid custom-mods, custom modifications, and they will try to take ServiceNow function out of the box. The desirability of that is when a new upgrade comes, you don't have to worry about the modifications you've made. However, it's not always that simple. I talked to a customer this morning on the way over here, they're a big SAP user, and they're doing a lot of custom-mods with their implementation. And I said aren't you worried about that? Yes, we're very worried about that, because that's going to be problematic for us when we upgrade. But they're wed to SAP. So, my advice to customers is always try where possible to avoid custom modifications. You hear that a lot from, for instance, IN4 customers. You frankly hear it a lot from Oracle customers, trying to avoid the modifications. Mods can drive value for your business, but in the cloud world, the cloud era, they can really create problems for you. >> And everyone thinks that they're special, but the reality is that a lot of processes are repeatable across businesses. And actually if you're sitting as a SASS offer provider, you see it across a lot of customers, try to go with what's the standard out of the box, with basic configuration changes, and try to keep away from the customization, or like you said, you can get yourself in serious trouble. And not really take full advantage. 'Cause you want to take advantage of the upgrades, you want the security upgrades, you want the functionality upgrades, you want the latest plug-ins from the ecosystem, so stick with the core and try to really avoid. And you've got stuff that needs to be kept up, and it's old and it's legacy, try to shield it as much as you can from this new-age application. >> So we're here for three days, theCUBE, Knowledge17, #know17, and so we will be covering all the innovations it's an interesting conference because the roles here are IT practitioners, CIOs, line-of-business professionals like those within HR, and other lines of business. So really a diverse crowd. There's a developer conference, a lot of events within the event. There's a women in tech luncheon hosted by John Donahoe, so a lot of stuff going on that we're going to be covering, Jeff Frick and myself. We are going to be right back with John Donahoe, the new CEO of ServiceNow coming fresh off the keynotes. Keep right there everybody. This is theCUBE, we're at Knowledge17, be right back.