>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> A decade of big data investments combined with cloud scale, the rise of much more cost effective processing power. And the introduction of advanced tooling has catapulted machine intelligence to the forefront of technology investments. No matter what job you have, your operation will be AI powered within five years and machines may actually even be doing your job. Artificial intelligence is being infused into applications, infrastructure, equipment, and virtually every aspect of our lives. AI is proving to be extremely helpful at things like controlling vehicles, speeding up medical diagnoses, processing language, advancing science, and generally raising the stakes on what it means to apply technology for business advantage. But business value realization has been a challenge for most organizations due to lack of skills, complexity of programming models, immature technology integration, sizable upfront investments, ethical concerns, and lack of business alignment. Mastering AI technology will not be a requirement for success in our view. However, figuring out how and where to apply AI to your business will be crucial. That means understanding the business case, picking the right technology partner, experimenting in bite-sized chunks, and quickly identifying winners to double down on from an investment standpoint. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we update you on the state of AI and what it means for the competition. And to do so, we invite into our studios Andy Thurai of Constellation Research. Andy covers AI deeply. He knows the players, he knows the pitfalls of AI investment, and he's a collaborator. Andy, great to have you on the program. Thanks for coming into our CUBE studios. >> Thanks for having me on. >> You're very welcome. Okay, let's set the table with a premise and a series of assertions we want to test with Andy. I'm going to lay 'em out. And then Andy, I'd love for you to comment. So, first of all, according to McKinsey, AI adoption has more than doubled since 2017, but only 10% of organizations report seeing significant ROI. That's a BCG and MIT study. And part of that challenge of AI is it requires data, is requires good data, data proficiency, which is not trivial, as you know. Firms that can master both data and AI, we believe are going to have a competitive advantage this decade. Hyperscalers, as we show you dominate AI and ML. We'll show you some data on that. And having said that, there's plenty of room for specialists. They need to partner with the cloud vendors for go to market productivity. And finally, organizations increasingly have to put data and AI at the center of their enterprises. And to do that, most are going to rely on vendor R&D to leverage AI and ML. In other words, Andy, they're going to buy it and apply it as opposed to build it. What are your thoughts on that setup and that premise? >> Yeah, I see that a lot happening in the field, right? So first of all, the only 10% of realizing a return on investment. That's so true because we talked about this earlier, the most companies are still in the innovation cycle. So they're trying to innovate and see what they can do to apply. A lot of these times when you look at the solutions, what they come up with or the models they create, the experimentation they do, most times they don't even have a good business case to solve, right? So they just experiment and then they figure it out, "Oh my God, this model is working. Can we do something to solve it?" So it's like you found a hammer and then you're trying to find the needle kind of thing, right? That never works. >> 'Cause it's cool or whatever it is. >> It is, right? So that's why, I always advise, when they come to me and ask me things like, "Hey, what's the right way to do it? What is the secret sauce?" And, we talked about this. The first thing I tell them is, "Find out what is the business case that's having the most amount of problems, that that can be solved using some of the AI use cases," right? Not all of them can be solved. Even after you experiment, do the whole nine yards, spend millions of dollars on that, right? And later on you make it efficient only by saving maybe $50,000 for the company or a $100,000 for the company, is it really even worth the experiment, right? So you got to start with the saying that, you know, where's the base for this happening? Where's the need? What's a business use case? It doesn't have to be about cost efficient and saving money in the existing processes. It could be a new thing. You want to bring in a new revenue stream, but figure out what is a business use case, how much money potentially I can make off of that. The same way that start-ups go after. Right? >> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. All right, let's take a look at where ML and AI fit relative to the other hot sectors of the ETR dataset. This XY graph shows net score spending velocity in the vertical axis and presence in the survey, they call it sector perversion for the October survey, the January survey's in the field. Then that squiggly line on ML/AI represents the progression. Since the January 21 survey, you can see the downward trajectory. And we position ML and AI relative to the other big four hot sectors or big three, including, ML/AI is four. Containers, cloud and RPA. These have consistently performed above that magic 40% red dotted line for most of the past two years. Anything above 40%, we think is highly elevated. And we've just included analytics and big data for context and relevant adjacentness, if you will. Now note that green arrow moving toward, you know, the 40% mark on ML/AI. I got a glimpse of the January survey, which is in the field. It's got more than a thousand responses already, and it's trending up for the current survey. So Andy, what do you make of this downward trajectory over the past seven quarters and the presumed uptick in the coming months? >> So one of the things you have to keep in mind is when the pandemic happened, it's about survival mode, right? So when somebody's in a survival mode, what happens, the luxury and the innovations get cut. That's what happens. And this is exactly what happened in the situation. So as you can see in the last seven quarters, which is almost dating back close to pandemic, everybody was trying to keep their operations alive, especially digital operations. How do I keep the lights on? That's the most important thing for them. So while the numbers spent on AI, ML is less overall, I still think the AI ML to spend to sort of like a employee experience or the IT ops, AI ops, ML ops, as we talked about, some of those areas actually went up. There are companies, we talked about it, Atlassian had a lot of platform issues till the amount of money people are spending on that is exorbitant and simply because they are offering the solution that was not available other way. So there are companies out there, you can take AoPS or incident management for that matter, right? A lot of companies have a digital insurance, they don't know how to properly manage it. How do you find an intern solve it immediately? That's all using AI ML and some of those areas actually growing unbelievable, the companies in that area. >> So this is a really good point. If you can you bring up that chart again, what Andy's saying is a lot of the companies in the ETR taxonomy that are doing things with AI might not necessarily show up in a granular fashion. And I think the other point I would make is, these are still highly elevated numbers. If you put on like storage and servers, they would read way, way down the list. And, look in the pandemic, we had to deal with work from home, we had to re-architect the network, we had to worry about security. So those are really good points that you made there. Let's, unpack this a little bit and look at the ML AI sector and the ETR data and specifically at the players and get Andy to comment on this. This chart here shows the same x y dimensions, and it just notes some of the players that are specifically have services and products that people spend money on, that CIOs and IT buyers can comment on. So the table insert shows how the companies are plotted, it's net score, and then the ends in the survey. And Andy, the hyperscalers are dominant, as you can see. You see Databricks there showing strong as a specialist, and then you got to pack a six or seven in there. And then Oracle and IBM, kind of the big whales of yester year are in the mix. And to your point, companies like Salesforce that you mentioned to me offline aren't in that mix, but they do a lot in AI. But what are your takeaways from that data? >> If you could put the slide back on please. I want to make quick comments on a couple of those. So the first one is, it's surprising other hyperscalers, right? As you and I talked about this earlier, AWS is more about logo blocks. We discussed that, right? >> Like what? Like a SageMaker as an example. >> We'll give you all the components what do you need. Whether it's MLOps component or whether it's, CodeWhisperer that we talked about, or a oral platform or data or data, whatever you want. They'll give you the blocks and then you'll build things on top of it, right? But Google took a different way. Matter of fact, if we did those numbers a few years ago, Google would've been number one because they did a lot of work with their acquisition of DeepMind and other things. They're way ahead of the pack when it comes to AI for longest time. Now, I think Microsoft's move of partnering and taking a huge competitor out would open the eyes is unbelievable. You saw that everybody is talking about chat GPI, right? And the open AI tool and ChatGPT rather. Remember as Warren Buffet is saying that, when my laundry lady comes and talk to me about stock market, it's heated up. So that's how it's heated up. Everybody's using ChatGPT. What that means is at the end of the day is they're creating, it's still in beta, keep in mind. It's not fully... >> Can you play with it a little bit? >> I have a little bit. >> I have, but it's good and it's not good. You know what I mean? >> Look, so at the end of the day, you take the massive text of all the available text in the world today, mass them all together. And then you ask a question, it's going to basically search through that and figure it out and answer that back. Yes, it's good. But again, as we discussed, if there's no business use case of what problem you're going to solve. This is building hype. But then eventually they'll figure out, for example, all your chats, online chats, could be aided by your AI chat bots, which is already there, which is not there at that level. This could build help that, right? Or the other thing we talked about is one of the areas where I'm more concerned about is that it is able to produce equal enough original text at the level that humans can produce, for example, ChatGPT or the equal enough, the large language transformer can help you write stories as of Shakespeare wrote it. Pretty close to it. It'll learn from that. So when it comes down to it, talk about creating messages, articles, blogs, especially during political seasons, not necessarily just in US, but anywhere for that matter. If people are able to produce at the emission speed and throw it at the consumers and confuse them, the elections can be won, the governments can be toppled. >> Because to your point about chatbots is chatbots have obviously, reduced the number of bodies that you need to support chat. But they haven't solved the problem of serving consumers. Most of the chat bots are conditioned response, which of the following best describes your problem? >> The current chatbot. >> Yeah. Hey, did we solve your problem? No. Is the answer. So that has some real potential. But if you could bring up that slide again, Ken, I mean you've got the hyperscalers that are dominant. You talked about Google and Microsoft is ubiquitous, they seem to be dominant in every ETR category. But then you have these other specialists. How do those guys compete? And maybe you could even, cite some of the guys that you know, how do they compete with the hyperscalers? What's the key there for like a C3 ai or some of the others that are on there? >> So I've spoken with at least two of the CEOs of the smaller companies that you have on the list. One of the things they're worried about is that if they continue to operate independently without being part of hyperscaler, either the hyperscalers will develop something to compete against them full scale, or they'll become irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, look, cloud is dominant. Not many companies are going to do like AI modeling and training and deployment the whole nine yards by independent by themselves. They're going to depend on one of the clouds, right? So if they're already going to be in the cloud, by taking them out to come to you, it's going to be extremely difficult issue to solve. So all these companies are going and saying, "You know what? We need to be in hyperscalers." For example, you could have looked at DataRobot recently, they made announcements, Google and AWS, and they are all over the place. So you need to go where the customers are. Right? >> All right, before we go on, I want to share some other data from ETR and why people adopt AI and get your feedback. So the data historically shows that feature breadth and technical capabilities were the main decision points for AI adoption, historically. What says to me that it's too much focus on technology. In your view, is that changing? Does it have to change? Will it change? >> Yes. Simple answer is yes. So here's the thing. The data you're speaking from is from previous years. >> Yes >> I can guarantee you, if you look at the latest data that's coming in now, those two will be a secondary and tertiary points. The number one would be about ROI. And how do I achieve? I've spent ton of money on all of my experiments. This is the same thing theme I'm seeing across when talking to everybody who's spending money on AI. I've spent so much money on it. When can I get it live in production? How much, how can I quickly get it? Because you know, the board is breathing down their neck. You already spend this much money. Show me something that's valuable. So the ROI is going to become, take it from me, I'm predicting this for 2023, that's going to become number one. >> Yeah, and if people focus on it, they'll figure it out. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the top players that won, some of the names we just looked at and double click on that and break down their spending profile. So the chart here shows the net score, how net score is calculated. So pay attention to the second set of bars that Databricks, who was pretty prominent on the previous chart. And we've annotated the colors. The lime green is, we're bringing the platform in new. The forest green is, we're going to spend 6% or more relative to last year. And the gray is flat spending. The pinkish is our spending's going to be down on AI and ML, 6% or worse. And the red is churn. So you don't want big red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score, which is shown by those blue dots that you see there. So AWS has the highest net score and very little churn. I mean, single low single digit churn. But notably, you see Databricks and DataRobot are next in line within Microsoft and Google also, they've got very low churn. Andy, what are your thoughts on this data? >> So a couple of things that stands out to me. Most of them are in line with my conversation with customers. Couple of them stood out to me on how bad IBM Watson is doing. >> Yeah, bring that back up if you would. Let's take a look at that. IBM Watson is the far right and the red, that bright red is churning and again, you want low red here. Why do you think that is? >> Well, so look, IBM has been in the forefront of innovating things for many, many years now, right? And over the course of years we talked about this, they moved from a product innovation centric company into more of a services company. And over the years they were making, as at one point, you know that they were making about majority of that money from services. Now things have changed Arvind has taken over, he came from research. So he's doing a great job of trying to reinvent themselves as a company. But it's going to have a long way to catch up. IBM Watson, if you think about it, that played what, jeopardy and chess years ago, like 15 years ago? >> It was jaw dropping when you first saw it. And then they weren't able to commercialize that. >> Yeah. >> And you're making a good point. When Gerstner took over IBM at the time, John Akers wanted to split the company up. He wanted to have a database company, he wanted to have a storage company. Because that's where the industry trend was, Gerstner said no, he came from AMEX, right? He came from American Express. He said, "No, we're going to have a single throat to choke for the customer." They bought PWC for relatively short money. I think it was $15 billion, completely transformed and I would argue saved IBM. But the trade off was, it sort of took them out of product leadership. And so from Gerstner to Palmisano to Remedi, it was really a services led company. And I think Arvind is really bringing it back to a product company with strong consulting. I mean, that's one of the pillars. And so I think that's, they've got a strong story in data and AI. They just got to sort of bring it together and better. Bring that chart up one more time. I want to, the other point is Oracle, Oracle sort of has the dominant lock-in for mission critical database and they're sort of applying AI there. But to your point, they're really not an AI company in the sense that they're taking unstructured data and doing sort of new things. It's really about how to make Oracle better, right? >> Well, you got to remember, Oracle is about database for the structure data. So in yesterday's world, they were dominant database. But you know, if you are to start storing like videos and texts and audio and other things, and then start doing search of vector search and all that, Oracle is not necessarily the database company of choice. And they're strongest thing being apps and building AI into the apps? They are kind of surviving in that area. But again, I wouldn't name them as an AI company, right? But the other thing that that surprised me in that list, what you showed me is yes, AWS is number one. >> Bring that back up if you would, Ken. >> AWS is number one as you, it should be. But what what actually caught me by surprise is how DataRobot is holding, you know? I mean, look at that. The either net new addition and or expansion, DataRobot seem to be doing equally well, even better than Microsoft and Google. That surprises me. >> DataRobot's, and again, this is a function of spending momentum. So remember from the previous chart that Microsoft and Google, much, much larger than DataRobot. DataRobot more niche. But with spending velocity and has always had strong spending velocity, despite some of the recent challenges, organizational challenges. And then you see these other specialists, H2O.ai, Anaconda, dataiku, little bit of red showing there C3.ai. But these again, to stress are the sort of specialists other than obviously the hyperscalers. These are the specialists in AI. All right, so we hit the bigger names in the sector. Now let's take a look at the emerging technology companies. And one of the gems of the ETR dataset is the emerging technology survey. It's called ETS. They used to just do it like twice a year. It's now run four times a year. I just discovered it kind of mid-2022. And it's exclusively focused on private companies that are potential disruptors, they might be M&A candidates and if they've raised enough money, they could be acquirers of companies as well. So Databricks would be an example. They've made a number of investments in companies. SNEAK would be another good example. Companies that are private, but they're buyers, they hope to go IPO at some point in time. So this chart here, shows the emerging companies in the ML AI sector of the ETR dataset. So the dimensions of this are similar, they're net sentiment on the Y axis and mind share on the X axis. Basically, the ETS study measures awareness on the x axis and intent to do something with, evaluate or implement or not, on that vertical axis. So it's like net score on the vertical where negatives are subtracted from the positives. And again, mind share is vendor awareness. That's the horizontal axis. Now that inserted table shows net sentiment and the ends in the survey, which informs the position of the dots. And you'll notice we're plotting TensorFlow as well. We know that's not a company, but it's there for reference as open source tooling is an option for customers. And ETR sometimes like to show that as a reference point. Now we've also drawn a line for Databricks to show how relatively dominant they've become in the past 10 ETS surveys and sort of mind share going back to late 2018. And you can see a dozen or so other emerging tech vendors. So Andy, I want you to share your thoughts on these players, who were the ones to watch, name some names. We'll bring that data back up as you as you comment. >> So Databricks, as you said, remember we talked about how Oracle is not necessarily the database of the choice, you know? So Databricks is kind of trying to solve some of the issue for AI/ML workloads, right? And the problem is also there is no one company that could solve all of the problems. For example, if you look at the names in here, some of them are database names, some of them are platform names, some of them are like MLOps companies like, DataRobot (indistinct) and others. And some of them are like future based companies like, you know, the Techton and stuff. >> So it's a mix of those sub sectors? >> It's a mix of those companies. >> We'll talk to ETR about that. They'd be interested in your input on how to make this more granular and these sub-sectors. You got Hugging Face in here, >> Which is NLP, yeah. >> Okay. So your take, are these companies going to get acquired? Are they going to go IPO? Are they going to merge? >> Well, most of them going to get acquired. My prediction would be most of them will get acquired because look, at the end of the day, hyperscalers need these capabilities, right? So they're going to either create their own, AWS is very good at doing that. They have done a lot of those things. But the other ones, like for particularly Azure, they're going to look at it and saying that, "You know what, it's going to take time for me to build this. Why don't I just go and buy you?" Right? Or or even the smaller players like Oracle or IBM Cloud, this will exist. They might even take a look at them, right? So at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are going to get acquired or merged with others. >> Yeah. All right, let's wrap with some final thoughts. I'm going to make some comments Andy, and then ask you to dig in here. Look, despite the challenge of leveraging AI, you know, Ken, if you could bring up the next chart. We're not repeating, we're not predicting the AI winter of the 1990s. Machine intelligence. It's a superpower that's going to permeate every aspect of the technology industry. AI and data strategies have to be connected. Leveraging first party data is going to increase AI competitiveness and shorten time to value. Andy, I'd love your thoughts on that. I know you've got some thoughts on governance and AI ethics. You know, we talked about ChatGBT, Deepfakes, help us unpack all these trends. >> So there's so much information packed up there, right? The AI and data strategy, that's very, very, very important. If you don't have a proper data, people don't realize that AI is, your AI is the morals that you built on, it's predominantly based on the data what you have. It's not, AI cannot predict something that's going to happen without knowing what it is. It need to be trained, it need to understand what is it you're talking about. So 99% of the time you got to have a good data for you to train. So this where I mentioned to you, the problem is a lot of these companies can't afford to collect the real world data because it takes too long, it's too expensive. So a lot of these companies are trying to do the synthetic data way. It has its own set of issues because you can't use all... >> What's that synthetic data? Explain that. >> Synthetic data is basically not a real world data, but it's a created or simulated data equal and based on real data. It looks, feels, smells, taste like a real data, but it's not exactly real data, right? This is particularly useful in the financial and healthcare industry for world. So you don't have to, at the end of the day, if you have real data about your and my medical history data, if you redact it, you can still reverse this. It's fairly easy, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So by creating a synthetic data, there is no correlation between the real data and the synthetic data. >> So that's part of AI ethics and privacy and, okay. >> So the synthetic data, the issue with that is that when you're trying to commingle that with that, you can't create models based on just on synthetic data because synthetic data, as I said is artificial data. So basically you're creating artificial models, so you got to blend in properly that that blend is the problem. And you know how much of real data, how much of synthetic data you could use. You got to use judgment between efficiency cost and the time duration stuff. So that's one-- >> And risk >> And the risk involved with that. And the secondary issues which we talked about is that when you're creating, okay, you take a business use case, okay, you think about investing things, you build the whole thing out and you're trying to put it out into the market. Most companies that I talk to don't have a proper governance in place. They don't have ethics standards in place. They don't worry about the biases in data, they just go on trying to solve a business case >> It's wild west. >> 'Cause that's what they start. It's a wild west! And then at the end of the day when they are close to some legal litigation action or something or something else happens and that's when the Oh Shit! moments happens, right? And then they come in and say, "You know what, how do I fix this?" The governance, security and all of those things, ethics bias, data bias, de-biasing, none of them can be an afterthought. It got to start with the, from the get-go. So you got to start at the beginning saying that, "You know what, I'm going to do all of those AI programs, but before we get into this, we got to set some framework for doing all these things properly." Right? And then the-- >> Yeah. So let's go back to the key points. I want to bring up the cloud again. Because you got to get cloud right. Getting that right matters in AI to the points that you were making earlier. You can't just be out on an island and hyperscalers, they're going to obviously continue to do well. They get more and more data's going into the cloud and they have the native tools. To your point, in the case of AWS, Microsoft's obviously ubiquitous. Google's got great capabilities here. They've got integrated ecosystems partners that are going to continue to strengthen through the decade. What are your thoughts here? >> So a couple of things. One is the last mile ML or last mile AI that nobody's talking about. So that need to be attended to. There are lot of players in the market that coming up, when I talk about last mile, I'm talking about after you're done with the experimentation of the model, how fast and quickly and efficiently can you get it to production? So that's production being-- >> Compressing that time is going to put dollars in your pocket. >> Exactly. Right. >> So once, >> If you got it right. >> If you get it right, of course. So there are, there are a couple of issues with that. Once you figure out that model is working, that's perfect. People don't realize, the moment you decide that moment when the decision is made, it's like a new car. After you purchase the value decreases on a minute basis. Same thing with the models. Once the model is created, you need to be in production right away because it starts losing it value on a seconds minute basis. So issue number one, how fast can I get it over there? So your deployment, you are inferencing efficiently at the edge locations, your optimization, your security, all of this is at issue. But you know what is more important than that in the last mile? You keep the model up, you continue to work on, again, going back to the car analogy, at one point you got to figure out your car is costing more than to operate. So you got to get a new car, right? And that's the same thing with the models as well. If your model has reached a stage, it is actually a potential risk for your operation. To give you an idea, if Uber has a model, the first time when you get a car from going from point A to B cost you $60. If the model decayed the next time I might give you a $40 rate, I would take it definitely. But it's lost for the company. The business risk associated with operating on a bad model, you should realize it immediately, pull the model out, retrain it, redeploy it. That's is key. >> And that's got to be huge in security model recency and security to the extent that you can get real time is big. I mean you, you see Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, a lot of other security companies are injecting AI. Again, they won't show up in the ETR ML/AI taxonomy per se as a pure play. But ServiceNow is another company that you have have mentioned to me, offline. AI is just getting embedded everywhere. >> Yep. >> And then I'm glad you brought up, kind of real-time inferencing 'cause a lot of the modeling, if we can go back to the last point that we're going to make, a lot of the AI today is modeling done in the cloud. The last point we wanted to make here, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is real-time AI inferencing for instance at the edge is going to become increasingly important for us. It's going to usher in new economics, new types of silicon, particularly arm-based. We've covered that a lot on "Breaking Analysis", new tooling, new companies and that could disrupt the sort of cloud model if new economics emerge. 'Cause cloud obviously very centralized, they're trying to decentralize it. But over the course of this decade we could see some real disruption there. Andy, give us your final thoughts on that. >> Yes and no. I mean at the end of the day, cloud is kind of centralized now, but a lot of this companies including, AWS is kind of trying to decentralize that by putting their own sub-centers and edge locations. >> Local zones, outposts. >> Yeah, exactly. Particularly the outpost concept. And if it can even become like a micro center and stuff, it won't go to the localized level of, I go to a single IOT level. But again, the cloud extends itself to that level. So if there is an opportunity need for it, the hyperscalers will figure out a way to fit that model. So I wouldn't too much worry about that, about deployment and where to have it and what to do with that. But you know, figure out the right business use case, get the right data, get the ethics and governance place and make sure they get it to production and make sure you pull the model out when it's not operating well. >> Excellent advice. Andy, I got to thank you for coming into the studio today, helping us with this "Breaking Analysis" segment. Outstanding collaboration and insights and input in today's episode. Hope we can do more. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. All right. I want to thank Alex Marson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com to get in touch, or DM me at dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please check out ETR.AI for the best survey data and the enterprise tech business, Constellation Research. Andy publishes there some awesome information on AI and data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (gentle closing tune plays)

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Detroit guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We've been on the floor at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America for about two days now. We've been breaking news, we would have a great conversations, John. We love talking with CUBE alumni whose companies are just taking off. And we get to do that next again. >> Well, this next segment's awesome. We have former CUBE host, Brian Gracely, here who's an executive in this company. And then the entrepreneur who we're going to talk with. She was on theCUBE when it just started now they're extremely successful. It's going to be a great conversation. >> It is, Idit Levine is here, the founder and CEO of solo.io. And as John mentioned, Brian Gracely. You know Brian. He's the VP of Product Marketing and Product Strategy now at solo.io. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, great to have you here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Idit: Thank so much for having us. >> Talk about what's going on. This is a rocket ship that you're riding. I was looking at your webpage, you have some amazing customers. T-Mobile, BMW, Amex, for a marketing guy it must be like, this is just- >> Brian: Yeah, you can't beat it. >> Kid in a candy store. >> Brian: Can't beat it. >> You can't beat it. >> For giant companies like that, giant brands, global, to trust a company of our size it's trust, it's great engineering, it's trust, it's fantastic. >> Idit, talk about the fast trajectory of this company and how you've been able to garner trust with such mass organizations in such a short time period. >> Yes, I think that mainly is just being the best. Honestly, that's the best approach I can say. The team that we build, honestly, and this is a great example of one of them, right? And we're basically getting the best people in the industry. So that's helpful a lot. We are very, very active on the open source community. So basically it building it, anyway, and by doing this they see us everywhere. They see our success. You're starting with a few customers, they're extremely successful and then you're just creating this amazing partnership with them. So we have a very, very unique way we're working with them. >> So hard work, good code. >> Yes. >> Smart people, experience. >> That's all you need. >> It's simple, why doesn't everyone do it? >> It's really easy. (all laughing) >> All good, congratulations. It's been fun to watch you guys grow. Brian, great to see you kicking butt in this great company. I got to ask about the landscape because I love the ServiceMeshCon you guys had on a co-located event on day zero here as part of that program, pretty packed house. >> Brian: Yep. >> A lot of great feedback. This whole ServiceMesh and where it fits in. You got Kubernetes. What's the update? Because everything's kind of coming together- >> Brian: Right. >> It's like jello in the refrigerator it kind of comes together at the same time. Where are we? >> I think the easiest way to think about it is, and it kind of mirrors this event perfectly. So the last four or five years, all about Kubernetes, built Kubernetes. So every one of our customers are the ones who have said, look, for the last two or three years, we've been building Kubernetes, we've had a certain amount of success with it, they're building applications faster, they're deploying and then that success leads to new challenges, right? So we sort of call that first Kubernetes part sort of CloudNative 1.0, this and this show is really CloudNative 2.0. What happens after Kubernetes service mesh? Is that what happens after Kubernetes? And for us, Istio now being part of the CNCF, huge, standardized, people are excited about it. And then we think we are the best at doing Istio from a service mesh perspective. So it's kind of perfect, perfect equation. >> Well, I'll turn it on, listen to your great Cloud cast podcast, plug there for you. You always say what is it and what isn't it? >> Brian: Yeah. >> What is your product and what isn't it? >> Yeah, so our product is, from a purely product perspective it's service mesh and API gateway. We integrate them in a way that nobody else does. So we make it easier to deploy, easier to manage, easier to secure. I mean, those two things ultimately are, if it's an internal API or it's an external API, we secure it, we route it, we can observe it. So if anybody's, you're building modern applications, you need this stuff in order to be able to go to market, deploy at scale all those sort of things. >> Idit, talk about some of your customer conversations. What are the big barriers that they've had, or the challenges, that solo.io comes in and just wipes off the table? >> Yeah, so I think that a lot of them, as Brian described it, very, rarely they had a success with Kubernetes, maybe a few clusters, but then they basically started to on-ramp more application on those clusters. They need more cluster maybe they want multi-class, multi-cloud. And they mainly wanted to enable the team, right? This is why we all here, right? What we wanted to eventually is to take a piece of the infrastructure and delegate it to our customers which is basically the application team. So I think that that's where they started to see the problem because it's one thing to take some open source project and deploy it very little bit but the scale, it's all about the scale. How do you enable all those millions of developers basically working on your platform? How do you scale multi-cloud? What's going on if one of them is down, how do you fill over? So that's exactly the problem that they have >> Lisa: Which is critical for- >> As bad as COVID was as a global thing, it was an amazing enabler for us because so many companies had to say... If you're a retail company, your front door was closed, but you still wanted to do business. So you had to figure out, how do I do mobile? How do I be agile? If you were a company that was dealing with like used cars your number of hits were through the roof because regular cars weren't available. So we have all these examples of companies who literally overnight, COVID was their digital transformation enabler. >> Lisa: Yes. Yes. >> And the scale that they had to deal with, the agility they had to deal with, and we sort of fit perfectly in that. They re-looked at what's our infrastructure look like? What's our security look like? We just happened to be right place in the right time. >> And they had skillset issues- >> Skillsets. >> Yeah. >> And the remote work- >> Right, right. >> Combined with- >> Exactly. >> Modern upgrade gun-to-the-head, almost, kind of mentality. >> And we're really an interesting company. Most of the interactions we do with customers is through Slack, obviously it was remote. We would probably be a great Slack case study in terms of how to do business because our customers engage with us, with engineers all over the world, they look like one team. But we can get them up and running in a POC, in a demo, get them through their things really, really fast. It's almost like going to the public cloud, but at whatever complexity they want. >> John: Nice workflow. >> So a lot of momentum for you guys silver linings during COVID, which is awesome we do hear a lot of those stories of positive things, the acceleration of digital transformation, and how much, as consumers, we've all benefited from that. Do you have one example, Brian, as the VP of product marketing, of a customer that you really think in the last two years just is solo.io's value proposition on a platter? >> I'll give you one that I think everybody can understand. So most people, at least in the United States, you've heard of Chick-fil-A, retail, everybody likes the chicken. 2,600 stores in the US, they all shut down and their business model, it's good food but great personal customer experience. That customer experience went away literally overnight. So they went from barely anybody using the mobile application, and hence APIs in the backend, half their business now goes through that to the point where, A, they shifted their business, they shifted their customer experience, and they physically rebuilt 2,600 stores. They have two drive-throughs now that instead of one, because now they have an entire one dedicated to that mobile experience. So something like that happening overnight, you could never do the ROI for it, but it's changed who they are. >> Lisa: Absolutely transformative. >> So, things like that, that's an example I think everybody can kind of relate to. Stuff like that happened. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's also what's special is, honestly, you're probably using a product every day. You just don't know that, right? When you're swiping your credit card or when you are ordering food, or when you using your phone, honestly the amount of customer they were having, the space, it's like so, every industry- >> John: How many customers do you have? >> I think close to 200 right now. >> Brian: Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How many employees, can you gimme some stats? Funding, employees? What's the latest statistics? >> We recently found a year ago $135 million for a billion dollar valuation. >> Nice. >> So we are a unicorn. I think when you took it we were around like 50 ish people. Right now we probably around 180, and we are growing, we probably be 200 really, really quick. And I think that what's really, really special as I said the interaction that we're doing with our customers, we're basically extending their team. So for each customer is basically a Slack channel. And then there is a lot of people, we are totally global. So we have people in APAC, in Australia, New Zealand, in Singapore we have in AMEA, in UK and in Spain and Paris, and other places, and of course all over US. >> So your use case on how to run a startup, scale up, during the pandemic, complete clean sheet of paper. >> Idit: We had to. >> And what happens, you got Slack channels as your customer service collaboration slash productivity. What else did you guys do differently that you could point to that's, I would call, a modern technique for an entrepreneurial scale? >> So I think that there's a few things that we are doing different. So first of all, in Solo, honestly, there is a few things that differentiated from, in my opinion, most of the companies here. Number one is look, you see this, this is a lot, a lot of new technology and one of the things that the customer is nervous the most is choosing the wrong one because we saw what happened, right? I don't know the orchestration world, right? >> John: So choosing and also integrating multiple things at the same time. >> Idit: Exactly. >> It's hard. >> And this is, I think, where Solo is expeditious coming to place. So I mean we have one team that is dedicated like open source contribution and working with all the open source community and I think we're really good at picking the right product and basically we're usually right, which is great. So if you're looking at Kubernetes, we went there for the beginning. If you're looking at something like service mesh Istio, we were all envoy proxy and out of process. So I think that by choosing these things, and now Cilium is something that we're also focusing on. I think that by using the right technology, first of all you know that it's very expensive to migrate from one to the other if you get it wrong. So I think that's one thing that is always really good at. But then once we actually getting those portal we basically very good at going and leading those community. So we are basically bringing the customers to the community itself. So we are leading this by being in the TOC members, right? The Technical Oversight Committee. And we are leading by actually contributing a lot. So if the customer needs something immediately, we will patch it for him and walk upstream. So that's kind of like the second thing. And the third one is innovation. And that's really important to us. So we pushing the boundaries. Ambient, that we announced a month ago with Google- >> And STO, the book that's out. >> Yes, the Ambient, it's basically a modern STO which is the future of SDL. We worked on it with Google and their NDA and we were listed last month. This is exactly an example of us basically saying we can do it better. We learn from our customers, which is huge. And now we know that we can do better. So this is the third thing, and the last one is the partnership. I mean honestly we are the extension team of the customer. We are there on Slack if they need something. Honestly, there is a reason why our renewal rate is 98.9 and our net extension is 135%. I mean customers are very, very happy. >> You deploy it, you make it right. >> Idit: Exactly, exactly. >> The other thing we did, and again this was during COVID, we didn't want to be a shell-for company. We didn't want to drop stuff off and you didn't know what to do with it. We trained nearly 10,000 people. We have something called Solo Academy, which is free, online workshops, they run all the time, people can come and get hands on training. So we're building an army of people that are those specialists that have that skill set. So we don't have to walk into shops and go like, well okay, I hope six months from now you guys can figure this stuff out. They're like, they've been doing that. >> And if their friends sees their friend, sees their friend. >> The other thing, and I got to figure out as a marketing person how to do this, we have more than a few handfuls of people that they've got promoted, they got promoted, they got promoted. We keep seeing people who deploy our technologies, who, because of this stuff they're doing- >> John: That's a good sign. They're doing it at at scale, >> John: That promoter score. >> They keep getting promoted. >> Yeah, that's amazing. >> That's a powerful sort of side benefit. >> Absolutely, that's a great thing to have for marketing. Last question before we ran out of time. You and I, Idit, were talking before we went live, your sessions here are overflowing. What's your overall sentiment of KubeCon 2022 and what feedback have you gotten from all the customers bursting at the seam to come talk to you guys? >> I think first of all, there was the pre-event which we had and it was a lot of fun. We talked to a lot of customer, most of them is 500, global successful company. So I think that people definitely... I will say that much. We definitely have the market feed, people interested in this. Brian described very well what we see here which is people try to figure out the CloudNative 2.0. So that's number one. The second thing is that there is a consolidation, which I like, I mean STO becoming right now a CNCF project I think it's a huge, huge thing for all the community. I mean, we're talking about all the big tweak cloud, we partner with them. I mean I think this is a big sign of we agree which I think is extremely important in this community. >> Congratulations on all your success. >> Thank you so much. >> And where can customers go to get their hands on this, solo.io? >> Solo.io? Yeah, absolutely. >> Awesome guys, this has been great. Congratulations on the momentum. >> Thank you. >> The rocket ship that you're riding. We know you got to get to the airport we're going to let you go. But we appreciate your insights and your time so much, thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks guys, we appreciate it. >> A pleasure. >> Thanks. >> For our guests and John Furrier, This is Lisa Martin live in Detroit, had to think about that for a second, at KubeCon 2022 CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with our final guests of the day and then the show wraps, so stick around. (gentle music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

[Music] thecube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 thecube has been covering red hat summit for a number of years of course the last two years were virtual coverage now the red hat summit is one of the industry's most premier events and and typically red hat summits are many thousands of people i think the last one i went to was eight or nine thousand people very heavy developer conference this year red hat has taken a different approach it's a hybrid event it's kind of a vip event at the westin in boston with a lot more executives here than we would normally expect versus developers but a huge virtual audience my name is dave vellante i'm here with my co-host paul gillin paul this is a location that you and i have broadcast from many times and um of course 2019 the summer of 2019 ibm acquired red hat and um we of course we did red hat summit that year but now we're seeing a completely new red hat and a new ibm and you wouldn't know ibm owned red hat for what they've been talking about at this conference we just came out of the keynote where uh in the in the hour-long keynote ibm was not mentioned once and only appeared the logo only appeared once on the screen in fact so this is uh very much red hat being red hat not being a subsidiary at ibm and perhaps that's justified given that ibm's track record with acquisitions is that they gradually envelop the acquired company and and it becomes part of the ibm board yeah they blue wash the whole thing right it's ironic because ibm think is going on right across the street arvin krishna is here but no presence here and i think that's by design i mean it reminds me of when you know emc owned vmware you know the vmware team didn't want to publicize that they had an ecosystem of partners that they wanted to cater to and they wanted to treat everybody equally even though perhaps behind the scenes they were forced to do certain things that they might not have necessarily wanted to because they were owned by another company and i think that you know certainly ibm's done a good job of leaving the brand separate but when they talk about the con the conference calls ibm's earnings calls you certainly get a heavy dose of red hat when red hat was acquired by ibm it was just north of three billion dollars in revenue obviously ibm paid 34 billion dollars for the company actually by today's valuations probably a bargain you know despite the market sell-off in the last several months uh but now we've heard public statements from arvind kushner that that red hat is a 5 billion plus revenue company it's a little unclear what's in there of course when you listen to ibm earnings you know consulting is their big business red hat's growing at 21 but when i remember paul when red hat was acquired stu miniman and i did a session and i said this is not about cloud this is about consulting and modernizing applications and sure there's some cloud in there with openshift but from a financial standpoint ibm was able to take red hat and jam it right into its application modernization initiatives so it's hard to tell how much of that 5 billion is actually you know legacy red hat but i guess it doesn't matter anymore it's working ibm mathematics is notoriously opaque they if the business isn't going well it'll tend to be absorbed into another number in the in the earnings report that that does show some growth so we've heard uh certainly ibm talks a lot about red hat on its earnings calls it's very clear that red hat is the growth engine within ibm i'd say it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog right now where red hat really is dictating where ibm goes with its hypercloud strategy which is the foundation not only of its technology portfolio but of its consulting business and so red hat is really in the driver's seat of of hybrid cloud and that's the future for ibm and you see that very much at this conference where uh red hat is putting out its uh series of announcements today about improvements to his hybrid cloud the new release of route 9 red hat enterprise linux 9 improvements to its hybrid cloud portfolio it very much is going its own way with that and i sense that ibm is going to go along with wherever red hat chooses to go yeah i think you're absolutely right if by the way if you go to siliconangle.com paul just published a piece on red hat reds hats their roll out of their parade which of course is as you pointed out led by enterprise linux but to your point about hybrid cloud it is the linchpin of of certainly ibm strategy but many companies hybrid cloud strategies if you think about it openshift in particular it's it's the modern application development environment for kubernetes you can get kubernetes you can buy eks you can get that for free in a lot of places but you have to do dozens and dozens of things and acquire dozens of services to do what openshift does to get the reliability the recoverability the security and that's really red hat's play and they're the the thing about red hat combining with linux their linux heritage they're doing that everywhere it's going to open shift everywhere red hat everywhere whether it's on-prem in aws azure google out to the edge you heard paul cormier today saying he expects that in the next several years hardware is going to become one of the most important you know factors i agree i think we're going to enter a hardware renaissance you've seen the work that we've done on arm i think 2017 was when red hat and arm announced kind of their initial collaboration could have even been before that today we're hearing a lot about intel and nvidia and so affinity with all of these alternative processes i think they did throw in today in the keynote power and so i think i heard that that was the other ibm branding they sort of tucked that in there but the point is red hat runs everywhere so it's fundamental to building out hybrid cloud and that is fundamental to a lot of company strategies and red hat has been all over kubernetes with openshift it's i mean it's a drum beat here uh the openshift strategy is what really makes hybrid cloud possible because kubernetes is what makes it possible to shift workloads seamlessly from platform to platform you make an interesting point about hardware we have seen kind of a renaissance in hardware these last couple of years as these specific chipsets and uh and even full-scale processors have come to market we're seeing several in the ai area right now where startups are developing full-blown chipsets and and systems uh just for ai processing and nvidia of course that's that's really kind of their stock and trade these days so uh a a company that can run across all of those different platforms a platform like like rel which can run all across those different platforms is going to have a leg up on on anybody else and the implications for application development are considerable when you when you think about we talk about a lot about these alternative processes when flash replaced the spinning disk that had a huge impact on how applications are developed developers now didn't have to wait for that that disc to spin even though it's spinning very fast it's mechanical compared to electrons forget it and and the second big piece here is how memory is actually utilized the x86 you know traditional x86 you know memory everything goes through that core processor intel for years grabbed more and more function and you're seeing now that function become dispersed in fact a lot of people think we're moving from a processor-centric world to a connect centric world meaning connecting all these piece parts alternative processors memory controllers you know storage controllers io network interface cards smartnics and things like that where the communication across those resources is now where a lot of the innovation is going you see you're seeing a lot of that and now of course applications can take advantage of that especially now at the edge which is just a whole new frontier the edge certainly is part of that equation when you look at machine learning at training machine learning models the cpu actually does relatively little work most of it is happening in gpus in these parallel processes that are going on and the cpu is kind of acting as a traffic cop and you see that in the edge as well it's the same model at the edge where more of the intelligence is going to be out in discrete devices spread across the network and the cpu is going to be less of a uh you know less of a engine of intelligence at the same time though we've got cpus with we've got 100 core cpus are on the horizon and there are even 200 and 300 core cpus that we may see in the next uh in the next couple of years so cpus aren't standing still they are evolving to become really kind of super traffic cops for all of these other processors out in the network and on the edge so it's a very exciting time to be in hardware because so much innovation is happening really at the microprocessor level well we saw this you and i lived through the pc era and we saw a whole raft of applications come about as a result of the microprocessor the shift of the microprocessor-based economy we're going to see so we are seeing something similar with mobile and the edge you know just think about some of the numbers if you think about the traditional moore's law doubling a number of transistors every let's call it two years 18 to 24 months pat gelsinger at intel promises that intel is on that pace still but if you look at the apple m1 ultra they increased the transistor density 6x in the last 15 months okay so where is this another data point is the historical moore's law curve is 40 that's moderating to somewhere down you know down in the low 30s if you look at the apple a series i mean that thing is on average increasing performance at 110 a year when you add up into the combinatorial factors of the cpu the neural processing unit the gpu all the accelerators so we are seeing a new era the thing i i i wanted to bring up paul is you mentioned ai much of the ai work that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud and when we talk about edge we think that the future of ai is ai inferencing in real time at the edge so you may not even be persisting that data but you're going to create a lot of data you're going to be operating on that data in streams and it's going to require a whole new new architectural thinking of hardware very low cost very low power very high performance to drive all that intelligence at the edge and a lot of that data is going to stay at the edge and and that's we're going to talk about some of that today with some of the ev innovations and the vehicle innovations and the intelligence in these vehicles yeah and in talking in its edge strategy which it outlined today and the announcements that are made today red hat very much uh playing to the importance of being able to run red hat enterprise linux at the edge the idea is you do these big machine learning models centrally and then you you take the you take what results from that and you move it out to smaller processors it's the only way we can cope with it with the explosion of data that will be uh that these sensors and other devices will be generating so some of the themes we're hearing in the uh announcements today that you wrote about paul obviously rel9 is huge uh red hat enterprise linux version nine uh new capabilities a lot of edge a lot of security uh new cross portfolio capabilities for the edge security in the software supply chain that's a big conversation especially post solar winds managed ansible when you think about red hat you really i think anyway about three things rel which is such as linux it powers the internet powers everything uh you think of openshift which is application development you think about ansible which is automation so itops so that's one of the announcements ansible on azure and then a lot of hybrid cloud talk and you're gonna hear a lot of talk this week about red hat's cloud services portfolio packaging red hat as services as managed services that's you know a much more popular delivery mechanism with clients because they're trying to make it easy and this is complicated stuff and it gets more complicated the more features they add and the more the more components of the red hat portfolio are are available it's it's gonna be complex to build these hybrid clouds so like many of these so thecube started doing physical events last summer by the way and so this is this is new to a lot of people uh they're here for the first time people are really excited we've definitely noticed a trend people are excited to be back together paul cormier talked about that he talked about the new normal you can define the new normal any way you want so paul cormier gave the uh the the intro keynote bidani interviewed amex stephanie cheris interviewed accenture both those firms are coming out stephanie's coming on with the in accenture as well matt hicks talked about product innovation i loved his reference to ada lovelace that was very cool he talked about uh serena uh ramyanajan a famous mathematician who nobody knew about when he was just a kid these were ignored individuals in the 1800s for years and years and years in the case of ada lovelace for a century even he asked the question what if we had discovered them earlier and acted on them and been able to iterate on them earlier and his point tied that to open source very brilliantly i thought and um keynotes which i appreciate are much shorter much shorter intimate they did a keynote in the round this time uh which i haven't seen before there's maybe a thousand people in there so a much smaller group much more intimate setting not a lot of back and forth but uh but there is there is a feeling of a more personal feel to this event than i've seen it past red hat summits yeah and i think that's a trend that we're going to see more of where the live audience is kind of the on the ground it's going to the vip audience but still catering to the virtual audience you don't want to lose them so that's why the keynotes are a lot tighter okay paul thank you for setting up red hat summit 2022 you're watching the cube's coverage we'll be right back wall-to-wall coverage for two days right after this short break [Music] you

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80 minutes startup showcase. Season two, episode two, the theme is data as code, the future of analytics. I'm John furry, your host. We had a great day lineup for you. Fast growing startups, great lineup of companies, founders, and stories around data as code. And we're going to kick it off here with our opening keynote with Rahul Pathak VP of analytics at AWS cube alumni. Right? We'll thank you for coming on and being the opening keynote for this awesome event. >>Yeah. And it's great to see you, and it's great to be part of this event, uh, excited to, um, to help showcase some of the great innovation that startups are doing on top of AWS. >>Yeah. We last spoke at AWS reinvent and, uh, a lot's happened there, service loss of serverless as the center of the, of the action, but all these start-ups rock set Dremio Cribble monks next Liccardo, a HANA imply all doing great stuff. Data as code has a lot of traction. So a lot of still momentum going on in the marketplace. Uh, pretty exciting. >>No, it's, uh, it's awesome. I mean, I think there's so much innovation happening and you know, the, the wonderful part of working with data is that the demand for services and products that help customers drive insight from data is just skyrocketing and has no sign of no sign of slowing down. And so it's a great time to be in the data business. >>It's interesting to see the theme of the show getting traction, because you start to see data being treated almost like how developers write software, taking things out of branches, working on them, putting them back in, uh, machine learnings, uh, getting iterated on you, seeing more models, being trained differently with better insights, action ones that all kind of like working like code. And this is a whole nother way. People are reinventing their businesses. This has been a big, huge wave. What's your reaction to that? >>Uh, I think it's spot on, I mean, I think the idea of data's code and bringing some of the repeatability of processes from software development into how people built it, applications is absolutely fundamental and especially so in machine learning where you need to think about the explainability of a model, what version of the world was it trained on? When you build a better model, you need to be able to explain and reproduce it. So I think your insights are spot on and these ideas are showing up in all stages of the data work flow from ingestion to analytics to I'm out >>This next way is about modernization and going to the next level with cloud-scale. Uh, thank you so much for coming on and being the keynote presenter here for this great event. Um, I'll let you take it away. Reinventing businesses, uh, with ads analytics, right? We'll take it away. >>Okay, perfect. Well, folks, we're going to talk about, uh, um, reinventing your business with, uh, data. And if you think about it, the first wave of reinvention was really driven by the cloud. As customers were able to really transform how they thought about technology and that's well on her way. Although if you stop and think about it, I think we're only about five to 10% of the way done in terms of it span being on the cloud. So lots of work to do there, but we're seeing another wave of reinvention, which is companies reinventing their businesses with data and really using data to transform what they're doing to look for new opportunities and look for ways to operate more efficiently. And I think the past couple of years of the pandemic, it really only accelerated that trend. And so what we're seeing is, uh, you know, it's really about the survival of the most informed folks for the best data are able to react more quickly to what's happening. >>Uh, we've seen customers being able to scale up if they're in, say the delivery business or scale down, if they were in the travel business at the beginning of all of this, and then using data to be able to find new opportunities and new ways to serve customers. And so it's really foundational and we're seeing this across the board. And so, um, you know, it's great to see the innovation that's happening to help customers make sense of all of this. And our customers are really looking at ways to put data to work. It's about making better decisions, finding new efficiencies and really finding new opportunities to succeed and scale. And, um, you know, when it comes to, uh, good examples of this FINRA is a great one. You may not have heard of them, but that the U S equities regulators, all trading that happens in equities, they keep track of they're look at about 250 billion records per day. >>Uh, the examiner, I was only EMR, which is our spark and Hadoop service, and they're processing 20 terabytes of data running across tens of thousands of nodes. And they're looking for fraud and bad actors in the market. So, um, you know, huge, uh, transformation journey for FINRA over the years of customer I've gotten to work with personally since really 2013 onward. So it's been amazing to see their journey, uh, Pinterest, not a great customer. I'm sure everyone's familiar with, but, um, you know, they're about visual search and discovery and commerce, and, um, they're able to scale their daily lot searches, um, really a factor of three X or more, uh, drive down their costs. And they're using the Amazon Opus search service. And really what we're trying to do at AWS is give our customers the most comprehensive set of services for the end-to-end journey around, uh, data from ingestion to analytics and machine learning. And we will want to provide a comprehensive set of capabilities for ingestion, cataloging analytics, and then machine learning. And all of these are things that our partners and the startups that are run on us have available to them to build on as they build and deliver value for their customers. >>And, you know, the way we think about this is we want customers to be able to modernize what they're doing and their infrastructure. And we provide services for that. It's about unifying data, wherever it lives, connecting it. So the customers can build a complete picture of their customers and business. And then it's about innovation and really using machine learning to bring all of this unified data, to bear on driving new innovation and new opportunities for customers. And what we're trying to do AWS is really provide a scalable and secure cloud platform that customers and partners can build on a unifying is about connecting data. And it's also about providing well-governed access to data. So one of the big trends that we see is customers looking for the ability to make self-service data available to that customer there and use. And the key to that is good foundational governance. >>Once you can define good access controls, you then are more comfortable setting data free. And, um, uh, the other part of it is, uh, data lakes play a huge role because you need to be able to think about structured and unstructured data. In fact, about 80% of the data being generated today, uh, is unstructured. And you want to be able to connect data that's in data lakes with data that's in purpose-built data stores, whether that's databases on AWS databases, outside SAS products, uh, as well as things like data warehouses and machine learning systems, but really connecting data as key. Uh, and then, uh, innovation, uh, how can we bring to bear? And we imagine all processes with new technologies like AI and machine learning, and AI is also key to unlocking a lot of the value that's in unstructured data. If you can figure out what's in an imagine the sentiment of audio and do that in real-time that lets you then personalize and dynamically tailor experiences, all of which are super important to getting an edge, um, in, uh, in the modern marketplace. And so at AWS, we, when we think about connecting the dots across sources of data, allowing customers to use data, lakes, databases, analytics, and machine learning, we want to provide a common catalog and governance and then use these to help drive new experiences for customers and their apps and their devices. And then this, you know, in an ideal world, we'll create a closed loop. So you create a new experience. You observe our customers interact with it, that generates more data, which is a data source that feeds into the system. >>And, uh, you know, on AWS, uh, thinking about a modern data strategy, uh, really at the core is a data lakes built on us three. And I'll talk more about that in a second. Then you've got services like Athena included, lake formation for managing that data, cataloging it and querying it in place. And then you have the ability to use the right tool for the right job. And so we're big believers in purpose-built services for data because that's where you can avoid compromising on performance functionality or scale. Uh, and then as I mentioned, unification and inter interconnecting, all of that data. So if you need to move data between these systems, uh, there's well-trodden pathways that allow you to do that, and then features built into services that enable that. >>And, um, you know, some of the core ideas that guide the work that we do, um, scalable data lakes at key, um, and you know, this is really about providing arbitrarily scalable high throughput systems. It's about open format data for future-proofing. Uh, then we talk about purpose-built systems at the best possible functionality, performance, and cost. Uh, and then from a serverless perspective, this has been another big trend for us. We announced a bunch of serverless services and reinvented the goal here is to really take away the need to manage infrastructure from customers. They can really focus about driving differentiated business value, integrated governance, and then machine learning pervasively, um, not just as an end product for data scientists, but also machine learning built into data, warehouses, visualization and a database. >>And so it's scalable data lakes. Uh, data three is really the foundation for this. One of our, um, original services that AWS really the backbone of so much of what we do, uh, really unmatched your ability, availability, and scale, a huge portfolio of analytics services, uh, both that we offer, but also that our partners and customers offer and really arbitrary skin. We've got individual customers and estimator in the expert range, many in the hundreds of petabytes. And that's just growing. You know, as I mentioned, we see roughly a 10 X increase in data volume every five years. So that's a exponential increase in data volumes, Uh, from a purpose-built perspective, it's the right tool for the right job, the red shift and data warehousing Athena for querying all your data. Uh, EMR is our managed sparking to do, uh, open search for log analytics and search, and then Kinesis and Amex care for CAFCA and streaming. And that's been another big trend is, uh, real time. Data has been exploding and customers wanting to make sense of that data in real time, uh, is another big deal. >>Uh, some examples of how we're able to achieve differentiated performance and purpose-built systems. So with Redshift, um, using managed storage and it's led us and since types, uh, the three X better price performance, and what's out there available to all our customers and partners in EMR, uh, with things like spark, we're able to deliver two X performance of open source with a hundred percent compatibility, uh, almost three X and Presto, uh, with on two, which is our, um, uh, new Silicon chips on AWS, better price performance, about 10 to 12% better price performance, and 20% lower costs. And then, uh, all compatible source. So drop your jobs, then have them run faster and cheaper. And that translates to customer benefits for better margins for partners, uh, from a serverless perspective, this is about simplifying operations, reducing total cost of ownership and freeing customers from the need to think about capacity management. If we invent, we, uh, announced serverless redshifts EMR, uh, serverless, uh, Kinesis and Kafka, um, and these are all game changes for customers in terms of freeing our customers and partners from having to think about infrastructure and allowing them to focus on data. >>And, um, you know, when it comes to several assumptions in analytics, we've really got a very full and complete set. So, uh, whether that's around data warehousing, big data processing streaming, or cataloging or governance or visualization, we want all of our customers to have an option to run something struggles as well as if they have specialized needs, uh, uh, instances are available as well. And so, uh, really providing a comprehensive deployment model, uh, based on the customer's use cases, uh, from a governance perspective, uh, you know, like information is about easy build and management of data lakes. Uh, and this is what enables data sharing and self service. And, um, you know, with you get very granular access controls. So rule level security, uh, simple data sharing, and you can tag data. So you can tag a group of analysts in the year when you can say those only have access to the new data that's been tagged with the new tags, and it allows you to very, scaleably provide different secure views onto the same data without having to make multiple copies, another big win for customers and partners, uh, support transactions on data lakes. >>So updates and deletes. And time-travel, uh, you know, John talked about data as code and with time travel, you can look at, um, querying on different versions of data. So that's, uh, a big enabler for those types of strategies. And with blue, you're able to connect data in multiple places. So, uh, whether that's accessing data on premises in other SAS providers or, uh, clouds, uh, as well as data that's on AWS and all of this is, uh, serverless and interconnected. And, um, and really it's about plugging all of your data into the AWS ecosystem and into our partner ecosystem. So this API is all available for integration as well, but then from an AML perspective, what we're really trying to do is bring machine learning closer to data. And so with our databases and warehouses and lakes and BI tools, um, you know, we've infused machine learning throughout our, by, um, the state of the art machine running that we offer through SageMaker. >>And so you've got a ML in Aurora and Neptune for broths. Uh, you can train machine learning models from SQL, directly from Redshift and a female. You can use free inference, and then QuickSight has built in forecasting built in natural language, querying all powered by machine learning, same with anomaly detection. And here are the ideas, you know, how can we up our systems get smarter at the surface, the right insights for our customers so that they don't have to always rely on smart people asking the right questions, um, and you know, uh, really it's about bringing data back together and making it available for innovation. And, uh, thank you very much. I appreciate your attention. >>Okay. Well done reinventing the business with AWS analytics rural. That was great. Thanks for walking through that. That was awesome. I have to ask you some questions on the end-to-end view of the data. That seems to be a theme serverless, uh, in there, uh, Mel integration. Um, but then you also mentioned picking the right tool for the job. So then you've got like all these things moving on, simplify it for me right now. So from a business standpoint, how do they modernize? What's the steps that the clients are taking with analytics, what's the best practice? How do they, what's the what's the high order bit here? >>Uh, so the basic hierarchy is, you know, historically legacy systems are rigid and inflexible, and they weren't really designed for the scale of modern data or the variety of it. And so what customers are finding is they're moving to the cloud. They're moving from legacy systems with punitive licensing into more flexible, more systems. And that allows them to really think about building a decoupled, scalable future proof architecture. And so you've got the ability to combine data lakes and databases and data warehouses and connect them using common KPIs and common data protection. And that sets you up to deal with arbitrary scale and arbitrary types. And it allows you to evolve as the future changes since it makes it easy to add in a new type of engine, as we invent a better one a few years from now. Uh, and then, uh, once you've kind of got your data in a cloud and interconnected in this way, you can now build complete pictures of what's going on. You can understand all your touch points with customers. You can understand your complete supply chain, and once you can build that complete picture of your business, you can start to use analytics and machine learning to find new opportunities. So, uh, think about modernizing, moving to the cloud, setting up for the future, connecting data end to end, and then figuring out how to use that to your advantage. >>I know as you mentioned, modern data strategy gives you the best of both worlds. And you've mentioned, um, briefly, I want to get a little bit more, uh, insight from you on this. You mentioned open, open formats. One of the themes that's come out of some of the interviews, these companies we're going to be hearing from today is open source. The role opens playing. Um, how do you see that integrating in? Because again, this is just like software, right? Open, uh, open source software, open source data. It seems to be a trend. What does open look like to you? How do you see that progressing? >>Uh, it's a great question. Uh, open operates on multiple dimensions, John, as you point out, there's open data formats. These are things like JSI and our care for analytics. This allows multiple engines tend to operate on data and it'll, it, it creates option value for customers. If you're going to data in an open format, you can use it with multiple technologies and that'll be future-proofed. You don't have to migrate your data. Now, if you're thinking about using a different technology. So that's one piece now that sort of software, um, also, um, really a big enabler for innovation and for customers. And you've got things like squat arc and Presto, which are popular. And I know some of the startups, um, you know, that we're talking about as part of the showcase and use these technologies, and this allows for really the world to contribute, to innovating and these engines and moving them forward together. And we're big believers in that we've got open source services. We contribute to open-source, we support open source projects, and that's another big part of what we do. And then there's open API is things like SQL or Python. Uh, again, uh, common ways of interacting with data that are broadly adopted. And this one, again, create standardization. It makes it easier for customers to inter-operate and be flexible. And so open is really present all the way through. And it's a big part, I think, of, uh, the present and the future. >>Yeah. It's going to be fun to watch and see how that grows. It seems to be a lot of traction there. I want to ask you about, um, the other comment I thought was cool. You had the architectural slides out there. One was data lakes built on S3, and you had a theme, the glue in lake formation kind of around S3. And then you had the constellation of, you know, Kinesis SageMaker and other things around it. And you said, you know, pick the tool for the right job. And then you had the other slide on the analytics at the center and you had Redshift and all the other, other, other services around it around serverless. So one was more about the data lake with Athena glue and lake formation. The other one's about serverless. Explain that a little bit more for me, because I'm trying to understand where that fits. I get the data lake piece. Okay. Athena glue and lake formation enables it, and then you can pick and choose what you need on the serverless side. What does analytics in the center mean? >>So the idea there is that really, we wanted to talk about the fact that if you zoom into the analytics use case within analytics, everything that we offer, uh, has a serverless option for our customers. So, um, you could look at the bucket of analytics across things like Redshift or EMR or Athena, or, um, glue and league permission. You have the option to use instances or containers, but also to just not worry about infrastructure and just think declaratively about the data that you want to. >>Oh, so basically you're saying the analytics is going serverless everywhere. Talking about volumes, you mentioned 10 X volumes. Um, what are other stats? Can you share in terms of volumes? What are people seeing velocity I've seen data warehouses can't move as fast as what we're seeing in the cloud with some of your customers and how they're using data. How does the volume and velocity community have any kind of other kind of insights into those numbers? >>Yeah, I mean, I think from a stats perspective, um, you know, take Redshift, for example, customers are processing. So reading and writing, um, multiple exabytes of data there across from each shift. And, uh, you know, one of the things that we've seen in, uh, as time has progressed as, as data volumes have gone up and did a tapes have exploded, uh, you've seen data warehouses get more flexible. So we've added things like the ability to put semi-structured data and arbitrary, nested data into Redshift. Uh, we've also seen the seamless integration of data warehouses and data lakes. So, um, actually Redshift was one of the first to enable a straightforward acquiring of data. That's sitting in locally and drives as well as feed and that's managed on a stream and, uh, you know, those trends will continue. I think you'll kind of continue to see this, um, need to query data wherever it lives and, um, and, uh, allow, uh, leaks and warehouses and purpose-built stores to interconnect. >>You know, one of the things I liked about your presentation was, you know, kind of had the theme of, you know, modernize, unify, innovate, um, and we've been covering a lot of companies that have been, I won't say stumbling, but like getting to the future, some go faster than others, but they all kind of get stuck in an area that seems to be the same spot. It's the silos, breaking down the silos and get in the data lakes and kind of blending that purpose built data store. And they get stuck there because they're so used to silos and their teams, and that's kind of holding back the machine learning side of it because the machine learning can't do its job if they don't have access to all the data. And that's where we're seeing machine learning kind of being this new iterative model where the models are coming in faster. And so the silo brake busting is an issue. So what's your take on this part of the equation? >>Uh, so there's a few things I plan it. So you're absolutely right. I think that transition from some old data to interconnected data is always straightforward and it operates on a number of levels. You want to have the right technology. So, um, you know, we enable things like queries that can span multiple stores. You want to have good governance, you can connect across multiple ones. Uh, then you need to be able to get data in and out of these things and blue plays that role. So there's that interconnection on the technical side, but the other piece is also, um, you know, you want to think through, um, organizationally, how do you organize, how do you define it once data when they share it? And one of the asylees for enabling that sharing and, um, think about, um, some of the processes that need to get put in place and create the right incentives in your company to enable that data sharing. And then the foundational piece is good guardrails. You know, it's, uh, it can be scary to open data up. And, uh, the key to that is to put good governance in place where you can ensure that data can be shared and distributed while remaining protected and adhering to the privacy and compliance and security regulations that you have for that. And once you can assert that level of protection, then you can set that data free. And that's when, uh, customers really start to see the benefits of connecting all of it together, >>Right? And then we have a batch of startups here on this episode that are doing a lot of different things. Uh, some have, you know, new lake new lakes are forming observability lakes. You have CQL innovation on the front end data, tiering innovation at the data tier side, just a ton of innovation around this new data as code. How do you see as executive at AWS? You're enabling all this, um, where's the action going? Where are the white spaces? Where are the opportunities as this architecture continues to grow, um, and get traction because of the relevance of machine learning and AI and the apps are embedding data in there now as code where's the opportunities for these startups and how can they continue to grow? >>Yeah, the, I mean, the opportunity is it's amazing, John, you know, we talked a little bit about this at the beginning, but the, there is no slow down insight for the volume of data that we're generating pretty much everything that we have, whether it's a watch or a phone or the systems that we interact with are generating data and, uh, you know, customers, uh, you know, we talk a lot about the things that'll stay the same over time. And so, you know, the data volumes will continue to go up. Customers are gonna want to keep analyzing that data to make sense of it. They're going to want to be able to do it faster and more cheaply than they were yesterday. And then we're going to want to be able to make decisions and innovate, uh, in a shorter cycle and run more experiments than they were able to do. >>And so I think as long as, and they're always going to want this data to be secure and well-protected, and so I think as long as we, and the startups that we work with can continue to push on making these things better. Can I deal with more data? Can I deal with it more cheaply? Can I make it easier to get insight? And can I maintain a super high bar in security investments in these areas will just be off. Um, because, uh, the demand side of this equation is just in a great place, given what we're seeing in terms of theater and the architect for forum. >>I also love your comment about, uh, ML integration being the last leg of the equation here or less likely the journey, but you've got that enablement of the AIP solves a lot of problems. People can see benefits from good machine learning and AI is creating opportunities. Um, and also you also have mentioned the end to end with security piece. So data and security are kind of going hand in hand these days, not just the governments and the compliance stuff we're talking about security. So machine learning integration kind of connects all of this. Um, what's it all mean for the customers, >>For customers. That means that with machine learning and really enabling themselves to use machine learning, to make sense of data, they're able to find patterns that can represent new opportunities, um, quicker than ever before. And they're able to do it, uh, dynamically. So, you know, in a prior version of the world, we'd have little bit of systems and they would be relatively rigid and then we'd have to improve them. Um, with machine learning, this can be dynamic and near real time and you can customize them. So, uh, that just represents an opportunity to deepen relationships with customers and create more value and to find more efficiency in how businesses are run. So that piece is there. Um, and you know, your ideas around, uh, data's code really come into play because machine learning needs to be repeatable and explainable. And that means versioning, uh, keeping track of everything that you've done from a code and data and learning and training perspective >>And data sets are updating the machine learning. You got data sets growing, they become code modules that can be reused and, uh, interrogated, um, security okay. Is a big as a big theme data, really important security is seen as one of our top use cases. Certainly now in this day and age, we're getting a lot of, a lot of breaches and hacks coming in, being defended. It brings up the open, brings up the data as code security is a good proxy for kind of where this is going. What's your what's take on that and your reaction to that. >>So I'm, I'm security. You can, we can never invest enough. And I think one of the things that we, um, you know, guide us in AWS is security, availability, durability sort of jobs, you know, 1, 2, 3, and, um, and it operates at multiple levels. You need to protect data and rest with encryption, good key management and good practices though. You need to protect data on the wire. You need to have a good sense of what data is allowed to be seen by whom. And then you need to keep track of who did what and be able to verify and come back and prove that, uh, you know, uh, only the things that were allowed to happen actually happened. And you can actually then use machine learning on top of all of this apparatus to say, uh, you know, can I detect things that are happening that shouldn't be happening in near real time so they could put a stop to them. So I don't think any of us can ever invest enough in securing and protecting my data and our systems, and it is really fundamental or adding customer trust and it's just good business. So I think it is absolutely crucial. And we think about it all the time and are always looking for ways to raise >>Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to give the keynote final word here for the folks watching a lot of these startups that are presenting, they're doing well. Business wise, they're being used by large enterprises and people buying their products and using their services for customers are implementing more and more of the hot startups products they're relevant. What's your advice to the customer out there as they go on this journey, this new data as code this new future of analytics, what's your recommendation. >>So for customers who are out there, uh, recommend you take a look at, um, what, uh, the startups on AWS are building. I think there's tremendous innovation and energy, uh, and, um, there's really great technology being built on top of a rock solid platform. And so I encourage customers thinking about it to lean forward, to think about new technology and to embrace, uh, move to the cloud suite, modernized, you know, build a single picture of our data and, and figure out how to innovate and when >>Well, thanks for coming on. Appreciate your keynote. Thanks for the insight. And thanks for the conversation. Let's hand it off to the show. Let the show begin. >>Thank you, John pleasure, as always.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is theCUBE's ongoing coverage where we go out to the events, in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're going to talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Piet Bill who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Piet, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor-client relationships. I mean, it's more than that. It's just, you're not a vendor. You're a partner, a very deep relationship many many decades, plus executives know each other. There's been some senior executives from American Express, as I recall came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner. But, talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >> Yeah well, as you rightly mentioned, the relationship is long and deep. It's over a hundred years. I mean the original deal was probably around the combine clocks and scales and all that kind of stuff, and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long, deep, lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business. And yeah, that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decade. So as you say, from buying stuff but I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level. American Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very, very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in Manhattan. >> Yeah, well so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously, there's a lot of business being transacted, but you've got an intimate, I mean your title has American Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean, I guess that's always the case but we're taking it to another level here, aren't we? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are often what we do as IBM is really get into the shoes basically of American Express trying to support their business to their clients. So American Express is very focused on small and medium businesses. So, we tap into how can we help the small and medium business as part of the American Express customer set. And how can we help evolve their business models, their technology, their services, to serve their clients better because in the old days, indeed, to your point, it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff. And then we use that to do our thing but that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the client of American Express, we cannot serve American Express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focus on the clients of American Express than in the old days, I would say. >> Well, the pandemic must've been a challenging environment. Of course, I mean, you know people aren't out shopping as much, although people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say, it's going to be like Woodstock here with their American Express cards. But so, maybe talk a little bit about how you worked together during the pandemic. >> Yeah, so well, first of all, like anybody we all work from home, but American Express really, I would say almost re-engaged on what is core in their strategy, is the support to small and medium business. So, American Express started this Stand For Small Initiative led by Steve Squeri himself, about how can we enable the small enterprises in doing business in the COVID period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help. Like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay let us help in that platform, support you when necessary with the platform, but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises, specifically in the New York area And like many other partners, we all got on board. And I think it got another focus again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we got on board and I think that is really a very clear partnership expression, I would say. >> How do you measure success with American Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How have you evolved that over time? >> Well, ultimately I would say it's client satisfaction in the end. It sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean, the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. And you can argue that of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies? And let me elaborate a second on that one. If American Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say cloud enabled, hybrid technologies enabled. We provide a lot of that material. So we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because American Express needs to be dynamic and getting fintechs on board, getting exchanges with new companies are going way faster. It's not the traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years. No, it needs to be on the spot. So we felt our strategies are really well aligned. And I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of American Express and on the back of that, we will do good business. So client satisfaction should be the primary one, strategic alignment important, and then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides >> Financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business. Some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. And so, American Express was likely already on a digital transformation prior to the COVID hitting. At the same time, if he talks about it being accelerated. But, I think what people miss is that it wasn't, well they don't miss it, but to think about it and this way it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And, so you just, you had no choice. You couldn't think about it. You just had to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri dish, but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made. Now, as we exit the pandemic, we step back and say, okay, wow, we learned a lot. Now we can make a more planful approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that? And how does it relate to what you guys are doing with American Express? >> I think that's a very good point, I agree. It's what you see is that this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I think the good news is American Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested. They have a lot of very skilled, good people and a very clear strategy and what they were after. This indeed put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this, let's say the the urgency to complete the transformation on the cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the techies wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So they need it from a risk perspective, they need it from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. They need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market. You get a lot of it. I mean, the competition is there. So to enable that the move to get new technologies in faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now, it's more of an almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of COVID. As soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of data and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >> So in the spirit of, you know you need to understand your customer. In this case, American Express and understand their business. And American Express is, I'll make you laugh. Anytime I call American Express, if I have to work out a problem or whatever, and I got to talk to customer service, they always thank me for my loyalty. Because I've been a customer for a long time. Back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, "Oh, thank you, Mr. Vellante. We really appreciate your loyalty." So loyalty is a big thing for American Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding? You know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >> Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean, to your point, I have the same experience. It's a crucial element. The whole, I mean, American express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty, like the business has evolved. I think the loyalty evolves in the same style. And I would say in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product. You know, you need to be, and then we'll buy the product. In the current environment, I would argue it's way more about skills. Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology, strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment, and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an Industrial Revolution. There was an Information Revolution. I think there's more of a Loyalty Revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages but a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market. They will deliver a lot of good people. They will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come in play and it will not become in play just between an IBM and an American Express. But I would argue it will come in play in the whole business cycle of American Express to their clients. I mean, if the credit card swipe of your American Express card in a shop fails, it needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American Express, it cannot be that, oh, American Express has a problem. And you know what, it's eight o'clock in the evening. Yeah, we have reduced services. No, we never had that. We will never have that. But we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >> Yeah. you're right. The nature of loyalty, I mean, certainly the products have changed. I remember, you used to travel overseas with American Express Travelers Checks. That was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took. No matter where I was going, whether it was the Asia Pacific or Europe, I had to have that packet. And there were times when one time in particular I had a problem, boom, they were right there. It solved that problem. Now of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what America's Express Travelers Check is. They probably don't know what cash is. Carrying around crypto in their wallet. But, that's an example and that's about trust. I trust that product. I trust that company behind the product. And again, that has to extend to your relationship, doesn't it? >> Absolutely, so the technology that American Express uses, whether they do it themselves, or whether it's provided by partners like IBM. It needs to be seamless because, let's face it. Dave, you will not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an American Express card, you expect it expect American Express to deliver you the security that you need. And whether American Express delivers that or IBM, you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that, in the old school I would say it was more like, okay, we'll give some services and some products to American Express and guys, good luck! Now, we need to think ahead. And I think that's where the power of IBM comes in whether we really are tuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability, services to the end clients, to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to American Express in your terms as an end-user of an Amex credit card, you can argue what's the real value at? And definitely if there's like three, four, or five parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating. And I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value, but we need to make it very clear. And that's, I think where you see companies like American Express really work together and that's where loyalty and trust really comes into play. >> Last question and we've got to go is, you have American Express in your title. Are other companies jealous? (laughs) We want that too. >> They should. They should be. I must say, we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe, including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think when these deep relationships come in place and two, they're so old. So deep, so entrenched, and it really started. There's different dimensions to it. And it's not always that hard-coded anymore. It's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean, when something happens in the middle of the night with American Express, all of IBM is on board as of the second. And it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and worked for an IBM. >> Yeah, right. That's awesome. Piet, Piet Bill's great story. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante, ongoing coverage of Think 2021. You're watching theCUBE.

>>from >>around >>The globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you >>by IBM. Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage where we go out to the events in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're gonna talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Pete Bill, who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Pete, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me Dave. >>So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor client relationships. I mean, it's more than that because you're not a vendor, your partner, very deep relationship, many, many, you know, decades plus uh, executives know each other. There's been a some senior executives from American Express as I recall, came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner um, but but talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >>Yeah, well, as you rightfully mentioned, uh the relationship is long and deep, its over 100 years. I mean the original deal was probably around the club buying clocks and uh scales and all that kind of stuff and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long deep lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business and uh yeah that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decades, as you say, uh from from buying stuff. But I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level american Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in in Manhattan. >>Yeah, so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously there's a lot of business being transacted but you've got to intimate your title has american Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean that's I guess that's always the case, but we're taking it to another level here, >>aren't we? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are after and what we do is IBM is really get into the shoes basically of american Express trying to support their business to their clients. So american Express is very focused on small and medium business. So we tip into how can we help the small and medium businesses part of the american Express custom set and how can we help evolve their business models, that technology their services to serve their clients better because in the old days indeed. To your point it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff and then we use that to do our thing. But that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the the client of american Express, we cannot serve american express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focused on the clients of american express than in the old days I would say. >>Well the pandemic must have been a challenging uh environment. Of course. I mean you know people aren't out shopping as much although you know people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say it's gonna be like Woodstock with the american express cards. But so so maybe talk a little bit about how how you work together during the pandemic. >>Yeah. So well first of all like anybody, we're all work from home. But american express really uh I would say almost reengaged on what is core and the threat that used to support to small and medium business. So american Express started this stand for small initiative led by steve Square himself about how can we enable the small enterprises uh in doing business in the covid period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay, let us help in that platform support you were necessary with the platform but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises uh specifically in the new york area. And like many other partners, we all got on board and I think it got another focus. Again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus, but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we get a got on board. And I think that that is really a very clear partnership expression. I would say, >>how do you measure success with with american Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How, how have you evolved that over time? >>Well, ultimately, I would say it's client satisfaction in the end, it sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean the real the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. You can argue that that is of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there, but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies and let me elaborate a second on that one. If american Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say uh cloud enabled hybrid technologies enabled. Uh we provide a lot of that material. Uh so we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because american Express needs to be dynamic and getting fit, excellent board, getting exchanges with with with with new companies going way faster. It's not a traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years now it needs to be on the spot. Um so we show our strategies are really well aligned and I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of american Express? And on the back of that we will do good business. So uh client satisfaction should be the primary one. Strategic alignment important. And then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides, >>financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. Uh So you know the american express is likely already on a digital transformation prior to the covid hitting at the same time. It talks about it being accelerated. But I think what people miss is that it wasn't well they don't miss it but you know to think about it in this way, it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And so you just you have no choice, you couldn't think about it, you just have to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri just but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made now as we exit the pandemic step back and say okay wow, we learned a lot now. We can make a more planned full approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that and how does it relate to what you guys are doing with american Express? >>I think that's a very good point. I agree. It's what you see is that uh this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I mean I think the good news is american Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested, they have a lot of very skilled good people uh a very clear strategy and what they were after this and they put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this is that the, let's say the urgency to complete the transformation on cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the Turkish wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So uh needed from a risk perspective, they needed, from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. Uh they need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market, you get a lot of the media competition is there? Uh so to enable that the move to get new technologies and faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now it's more of almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of Covid as soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of debt and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >>So in the spirit of you need to understand your customer in this case american Express and understand their business. An american express is uh make you laugh anytime I call american Express, you know, if I have to work out a problem or whatever. Uh and I gotta talk to some customer service. They always thank me for my loyalty because I have been a customer for a long time. You know, back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president, it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, oh thank you, Mr Volonte. We we really appreciate your loyalty. So loyalty is a big thing for american Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding, you know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >>Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean to your point, I have the same experience, It's it's a it's a crucial element. Uh the whole, I mean american Express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty like the business has evolved, I think the loyalty evolves in the same style in I would say in the in the in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product, you know, you you need to be and then we'll buy the product in the current environment. I would argue that it's way more about skills, Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an industrial revolution, there was an information resolution. I think there's more of a loyalty revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages. But a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market, they will deliver a lot of good people, they will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come and play and it will not become and play just between an IBM and an american express, but I would argue it will come and play in the whole business cycle of american express to their clients. I mean if the credit card swipe of your american express card in a shop fails, It needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American express it cannot be that Oh American express has a problem and you know what, it's 8:00 in the evening uh yeah we have reduced services. No we never had that, we will never have that but we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >>Yeah I mean you're right the nature of loyalty, the preservative products have changed. I mean I remember you know I used to travel overseas with american Express traveler's checks that was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took you no matter where I was going, whether it's asia pacific or or europe, I had to have that packet and I and I had you know, there were times when, when you know one time particularly had a problem film, they were right there to solve the problem. Of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what american express traveler's check is. They probably don't know what cash is carrying around crypto in their wallet. But but but that's an example and that's about trust, trust that product, I trust that company behind the product. Again, that has to extend to your relationship doesn't. >>Absolutely. So the technology that an american Express users, whether they do it themselves or whether it's provided by partners like IBM it needs to be seamless because let's face it, you would not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an american Express card, you expect expect american Express to deliver your the security that you need and whether american Express delivers that or IBM you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that in the old school I would say it was more like okay we'll give some services and some products to american Express and guys could look now, we need to think ahead and I think that's where the power of IBM comes in where that we really attuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability services, um to the inclined to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to american express in your terms as an infusion of an express credit card, you can argue what's the real value add. And definitely if there's like 345 parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating and I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value but we need to make it very clear and that's I think where you see companies like american Express really work together and that's what loyalty and trust really comes in play. >>Last question when we got to go is you have american expression, your title are other companies jealous >>we >>want that >>to, they should, they should >>be. Uh >>but I I must say, I mean we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think where these deep relationship ships commonplace indeed too. I mean they're so old, so deep, so and entrenched and it really start there's different dimensions to it and it's not always that hard coded anymore, it's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean when something happens in the middle of the night with american express, all of IBM is on board as of the second and it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and work for an IBM. >>Yeah. Right. It's awesome. Pete Pete bills. Great story. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. It's great to have you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right and keep it right. There is day volonte ongoing coverage of think 2021. You're watching the Cube? Yeah.

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners come back this is the cubes coverage of Cisco live 2020 here in Barcelona doing about three and a half days of wall-to-wall coverage here I'm Stu minim and my co-host for this segment is Dave Volante John furs also here scouring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program to first-time guests I believe so Ron Daris is the product manager of product marketing for cloud computing with Cisco and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson who's director of product development also with the Cisco cloud group Dave and I are from Boston Matt is also from the Boston area yes and Costas is coming over from London so thanks so much for joining us thanks IBPS all right so obviously cloud computing something we've been talking about many years we've really found fascinating the relationship Cisco's had with its customers as well as through the partner ecosystem had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week maybe start a little bit you know Cisco's software journey and you know positioning in this cloud space right now yes oh so it's a it's a really interesting dynamic when we start transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with cloud and compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at the infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the apps operations or whether you're looking at you know your dev environment your security operations each organization has to deal with their angle at which they view you know multi cloud or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context and so whether you're on the infrastructure side you're looking at compute you're looking at storage you're looking at resources if you're an app operator you're looking at performance you're looking at visibility assurance if you are in the security operations you're looking at maybe governance you're looking at policy and then when you're a developer you really sort of thinking about CI CD you're talking about agility and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective all those various angles of multi-cloud yeah definitely a lot of piece of cost us maybe up level it for us a little bit there's there's so many pieces you know we talked for so long you know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time and it means every company's got at home positioning but talk about the relationship cisco has with its customer and really the advisory position that you want to have with them it's actually a very relevant question to what to what Matt is talking about because we talk a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds you know public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities and if you think about it the the it goes back to what Matt said about IT ops and the development kind of efforts why is this happening really you know there's there's the study that we did with with an analyst and there was an amazing a shocking stat around how within the next three years organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now and we have been trying to test this stat our events that made customer meetings etc that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations so if you think about why are they use why do they need to basically what go and expand to those clouds is because they want to service IT Ops teams want ER servers with capabilities their developers faster right and this is where you have within the IT ops kind of theme organization you have the security kind of frame the compute frame the networking where you know Cisco has a traditional footprint how do you blend all this how do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts I think that's what are we hearing from customers in terms of the feedback and this is what influences our strategy to converts the different business units and engineering engineering efforts right couple years ago I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic I always said I thought it was more of a symptom than actually a strategy a symptom of you know shadow IT and different workloads and so forth but now I'm kind of buying in because I think IT in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy so if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy toward the multi cloud and how Cisco that was mapping into that yeah so so when we talk to customers it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem in like you said the shadow IT has been probably around for longer than anybody won't cares to admit because the people want to move faster organizations want to get their product out to market sooner and and so what what really is we're having conversations now about you know how do I get the visibility how do I get you know the policies and the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for that I need the connectivity so I get the bandwidth and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is is is going I realize that this is going on now I actually have to now put some you know governance and controls around that is their products is their solutions is their you know they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey because as much as we talk about cloud and you know companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of IT organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems yeah I agree and it's just starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to okay we got this this thing but if you think about the competitive landscape its kind of interesting and I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again you you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud and you'd say oh well okay so they have to do that but now you see anthos come out with Google you see Microsoft leaning in we think eventually AWS is going to lean in and then you say I'm kind of interested in working with someone whose cloud agnostic not trying to force now now Cisco a few years ago you didn't really think about Cisco as a player now so this goes right in the middle I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Fourier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength making a strong argument that we have the most cost-effective most secure highest performance network to connect clouds that seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours and does that essentially summarize your strategy and and how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market I would say that I can I can I can take that ya know it's a chewy question for hours yeah so I I was thinking about a satellite in you mentioned this before and you're like okay that's you know the world is turning around completely because we we seem to talk about satellite e is something bad happening and now suddenly we completely forgot about it like let let free free up the developers gonna let them do whatever they want and basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market so all the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least are offering out there certainly the big three have differences have their strengths and I think those strengths are closer to the developer environment basically you know if you're looking into something like a IML there's one provider that you go with if you're looking for a mobile development framework you're gonna go somewhere else if you're looking for a dr you're gonna go somewhere else maybe not a big cloud but your service provider that you've been dealing with all these all these times and you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for so where does Cisco come in you know we're not a public cloud provider we offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers but at the - at the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS a sure Google Oracle IBM etc we're not that we don't do that our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity security visibility observability and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clouds so we we kind of we kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question and the first question is who is your cloud provider what how many tell us the clouds you work with and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you so there's so that you can make the best out of your plan it's been being able to do that across clouds we're in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent that represent the edicts of your organization no matter where your data lives that's sort of the the vision in the way this is translated into products into Cisco's product you naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking that's that's really sort of our you know go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well so connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geographies point A to point B in the natural routing and switching world there's connectivity between applications between cute and so this week you know the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from a experience journey map so you can actually know where the problems might occur in the application domain you can actually then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say okay maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource whether it's compute resource whether it's memory whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem or whether it's in the public cloud that you have that application residing and then why candidly you have the actual hardware itself so inter-site it has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer I'm glad you brought up some of the applications wonderful we can you know stay there for a moment and talk about some of the changing patterns for customers a lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often it gets conflated with you know microservices containerization and lots of the individual pieces there but you know one of our favorite things that been talked about this week is the software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces so help us understand what you're hearing from customers and and where how you're helping them through this transition to constants as you were saying absolutely there's going to be lots of new applications more applications and they still have the the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know an IT nothing ever goes away that's that's definitely true I was I was thinking you know there's there's a vacuum at the moment and and there's things that Cisco is doing from from technology leadership perspective to fill that gap between the application what do you see when it comes to monitoring making sure your services are observable and how does that fit within the infrastructure stack you know everything upwards network the network layer base again that is changing dramatically some of the things that Matt touched upon with regards to you know being able to connect the the networking the security in the infrastructure the computer infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top so there's a lot of there's a lot of things on containerization there's a lot of in fact it's you know one part of the of the self-injure side of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements you know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around ok how does that abstract further the conversation on networking for example because that now what we're seeing is that you have huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services ok they you know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native is it related to containers different kind of things right but containers are naturally the infrastructure de facto currency for developers to deploy because of many many benefits but then what happens you know between the kubernetes layer which seems to be the standard and the application who's gonna be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying you know things like service mesh network service mess how is the network evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications so there's so many things happening at the same time where cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat this is where it gets really interesting you know it's sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard but it's a de-facto standard that's open everybody's playing with but historically this industry has been defined by you know a leader who comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes not a company right it's an open standard and so but there's so many other components than containers and so history would suggest that there's going to be another de facto standard or multiple standards that emerge and your point earlier is you you got to have the full stack you can't just do networking you can't just do certain few so you guys are attacking that whole pie so how do you think this thing will evolve I mean you guys are obviously intend to put out as Casta as wide a net as possible capture not only your existing install base but attractive attract others and you're going aggressively at it as are as are others how do you see it shaking out deep do you see you know four or five pockets do you see you know one leader emerging I mean customers would love all you guys to get together come up with standards that's not going to happen so we're it's jump ball right now well yeah and you think about you know to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company right it is it is a community driven I mean it was open source by a large company but it's but it's community driven now and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving there is so much coming at IT organizations from a new paradigm a new software something that's you know the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump on to and sort of say that is the way we're going to function so IT organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle and I think what's starting to happen is the management and the you know that stack who controls that or who is helping IT organizations to manage it for them so really what we're trying to say is there's elements that you have to put together that have to function and kubernetes is just one example docker the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes rides IDEs on top of it so now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week HX ap the application platform for HX so you have the compute cluster but then you have the on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stock and managing that for you so you don't have to deal with that because you can just focus on the application development yeah I mean Cisco's in a strong position to do there's no question about it and to me it comes down to execution if you guys execute and deliver on the the products and services that you say you know your nouns for instance this week and previously and you continue on a roadmap you're gonna get a fair share of this marketplace I think there's no question so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers what's separating kind of leaders from you know the followers in this space you know there's so much data out there you know I'm a big fan of the state of DevOps report yeah focus you know separate you know some but not the not here's the technology or the piece but the organizational and you know dynamics that you should do so it sounds like Matt you you like that that report also love them what are you hearing from customers how do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space yeah the state of DevOps report was fascinating and I mean they've been doing that for what a number of years yeah exactly and really what it's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or this this this paradigm shift or journey we're going through there's the technology side for sure and so that's getting more complex you have micro services you have application explosion you have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up but then it's really about the human aspect that human elements the people about it and that's really I think what separates you know the the elites that are really sort of you know just charging forward in the head because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really what you're talking about in cloud native DevOps is how you take the journey of that experience of the service from end to end from the development all the way to production and how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you know have another conversation with another organization that it doesn't look at that that has no experience of that so that is what we're talking about that end-to-end view is that in addition to all the things we've been talking about I think Security's a linchpin here now you guys are executing on security you got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M&A and a lot of companies now trying to get in and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out but that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint and then build out yeah absolutely if you follow the DevOps methodology its security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to sit on after do anything Custis give you the final word I was just as follow-up with regard what what Mark was saying there's so many there's what's happening out there is this just democracy around standards which is driven by communities and we will love that in fact cisco is involved in many open-source community projects but you asked about customers and and just right before you were asking about you know who's gonna be the winner there's so many use cases there's so much depth in terms of you know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes you know take AI ml for example something that we have we have some some offering the services around there's the customer that wants to do AML there their containers that their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else's doing something just hosting yeah and there's always gonna be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company you know which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public law provider that is more organized if there's a does that make sense yeah yeah this there's relationships that exist the archer is gonna get blown away that add value today and they're not gonna just throw them out so exactly right well thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space look forward to keeping an eye on it thank you thank you so much all right there's still lots more coming here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona people are standing watching all the developer events lots of going on the floor and we still have more so thank you for watching the cute [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops to Minh and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig into of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK Kia Nene TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been okay you know compromised before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's uh it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors going from hacktivists took criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile look like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talk to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were part sort of administrator in your part detective and most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what productions should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of great technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over insecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think it's a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in ok what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yes automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threaten modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and the storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people you know versus allowing them to do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that and you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it try to understand I know that's a high-level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field see the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna readjust machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what is called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and in a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black boxes is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wondered you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the self watch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at dev net right yeah yeah I mean definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but you know start/stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives down so bad so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah no I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came on the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially exerted securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me it's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and it's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his is his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah I'm and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness you know twenty years ago then right me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these coming off the bank I mean that's those guys a dinner table cover every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just you know a tort or a jipner's you've been to this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like it's always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you've a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more of what you're working on but what's some of the best resource I have to go do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we published all our our laurs security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch alright yeah and a travels thank you so much for de Villante I'm Stu Mittleman John furrier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John Faria my co-host to many men to great guests here in the dev net studio where the cube is sitting all week long been packed with action mindy Whaley senior director developer experiences but dev net and partner a senior director welcome back to this cube good to see you guys glad to be here so we've had a lot of history with you guys what from day one yes watching def net from an idea of hey we should develop earthing you also have definite create yes separate more developer focused definite is Cisco's developer environment we've been here from the beginning what a progression congratulations on the success thank you thank you so much it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here you know learning in the workshops and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco live and it definitely ate what you mentioned which is coming up in March so it's right around the corner def net zone which we're in it's been really robust spins it's been the top of the show every year and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed because people are learning developers new developers as well as Cisco engineers who were certified coming in getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments are new skills is a technology shift yeah exactly and what we have in the definite zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shift so we have demos around IOT and security and showing how you know to prevent threats from attacking the Industrial routers and things like that we have coding workshops from you know beginning intro to Python intro to get all the way up through advanced like kubernetes topics and things like that so people can really dive in with what they're looking for and this year we're really excited because we have the new definite certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February so a lot of people are here saying I'm ready to skill up for those exams I'm starting to dive into this topic well Susie we was on she's the chief of deaf net among other things and she said there's gonna be a definite 500 the first 500 certifications of deaf net are gonna be kind of like the Hall of Fame or you know the inaugural or founder certifications so can you explain what this it means it's not a definite certification badge it's a series of write different sir can you deeper in then yeah just like we have our you know existing network certifications which are so respected and loved around the world people get CCIE tattoos and things just like there's an associate and professional and expert level on the networking truck there's now a definite associate a definite professional and coming soon definite expert and then there's also specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation IOT WebEx so it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software so there are about 80 80 % software skills 20 percent knowledge of networking and then how you really connect up and down the stock so these are new certifications not replacing anything all the same stuff they're new they're part of the same program they have the same rigor the same kind of tests they actually have ways to enter weave with the existing networking certifications because we want people to do both skill paths right to build this new IT team of the future and so it's a completely new set of exams the exams are gonna be available to take February 24th and you can start signing up now so with the definite 500 you know that's gonna be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get dead note certifications it'll be a lifetime achievement they'll always be in the definite 500 right and I've had people coming up and telling me you know I'm signed up for the first day I'm taking my exams on the first day I'm trying to get into them you and I only always want to be on the lift so I think we might be on them and what's really great is with the certifications we've heard from people in the zone that they've been coming and taking classes and learning these skills but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work you know to have that sort of progression and so with the certifications they really will have that and it's also really important for our partners and par is doing a lot of work with certifications and partners yeah definitely that would love to hear a little bit we've interviewed on the cube over the years some of the definite partners from a technology standpoint of course the the channels ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business gives the update as to you know definite partnering as well as what will these certifications mean to both the technology and go to market partners yeah the wonderful thing about this is it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software and making sure that we're providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together and what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of program ability and this new definite specialization which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint from a recognition standpoint that as a practice they have these skills and look at the end of the day it's all about delivering what our customers need and our customers are asking us for significant help in automation digital transformation they're trying to drive new business outcomes and this this will provide that recognition on on who to partner with in the market it's so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the partner ecosystem build data center practices went from the silos and now embracing you've got the hardware the software we're talking multi cloud it's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with where they're going it really is and and another benefit that we're finding and talking to our partners is we're packaging this up and rolling it out is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint from a practice standpoint and from a competitive differentiation standpoint but it'll also help them attract challenge I mean it's no secret there is a talent shortage right now if you talk to any CEO that's top of mind and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people smart people like working on smart things right and so this has really been a big traction point for them as well it's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles so some of the ways that you can combine the new definite certifications with the network engineering certifications we've looked at it and said you know there's there's a role of Network automation developer that's a new role everyone we ask in one of our sessions who needs that person on their team so many customers partners raise their hands like we want the network Automation developer on our team and you can combine you know your CCNP Enterprise with a definite certification and build up the skills to be that Network automation developer certainly has been great buzz I got to get your guys thoughts because certainly it's for careers and you guys are betting on the the people and the people are betting on Cisco mm-hmm yes this is what's going on submit surety of Devin it almost it's like a pinch me moment for you guys because you continue to grow I got to ask you what are some of the cool things that you're showing here as you mature you still have the start here session which is intro to Python and other things pretty elementary and then there's more advanced things what are some of the new things that's going on yeah that you could share so some of the new things we've got going on and one of my favorites is the IOT insecurity demonstration there's a an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot alarm and then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access you know something that that robot was it was using it's getting in the way of it working so you could detect threats and move forward on that we also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing to how you would deploy automation to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi domain automation so really helping engineers like look at that whole progression that's been that's been really popular Park talked about the specialization which ones are more popular or entry-level which ones are people coming into getting certified first network engineering automation first or what's the yeah so we're so the program is going to roll out with three different levels one is a specialized level the second is an advanced level and then we'll look to that third level again they're anchored in the in the individual certs and so as we look for that entry level it's really all about automation right I mean some things you take for granted but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale and have repeatable scalable benefits from that this the second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that an additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience compliance experiences and then that next level again we'll anchor towards the expert level that's coming out but one thing I want to point out is in addition to just having the certified people on staff they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it so it's not just enough to say I've passed an exam as we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really there's a lot behind it that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if a 500 list I don't know that the cube would end up being specialized its advertising no seriously all fun it's all fun it's Cisco live in Europe is there a difference between European and USD seeing any differences in geographic talent you know in the first couple years we did it I think there was a bigger difference it felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the US slightly different in Europe last year and this year I feel like they have converged it's it's the same focus on DevOps automation security as a huge focus in both places and it also feels like the the interest and level of the people attending has also converged it's really similar congratulations been fun to watch the rise and success of Devon it continues to be strong how see in the hub here and the definite zone behind us pact sessions yes what's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success what's what's jumped out yeah I think you know one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit we're hoping it would happen we just didn't realize it would happen this soon we're attracting new companies new partners so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional bars this is also available for our non resale and we are finding different companies accessing definite resources and learning these skills so that's been a really great benefit of Deb net overall definitely my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what the what they went back and did and the change that they drove and they come in their company and I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement take back some new ideas really create change and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them those are my favorite surprises and I tell you we've known for years how important the developer is but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just oh the developer has some tools that they like in the corner the developer connected to the business and driving things forward exactly so perfect timing congratulations on this certification their thing that's been great is that our at Cisco itself we now have API is across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock so that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers so Cisco's API first company we are building it guys everywhere we can and and that the community is is taking them and finding creative things to build it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco but also impact customers has been great to watch far many thanks for coming up yeah games live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco live 20/20 I'm John Ford Dave Dave Alon face to many men we right back with more after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage here at Cisco live 20/20 and partial into Spain I'm John first evening men cube coverage we've got a lot of stuff going on with Cisco multi-cloud and cloud technologies of clarification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now cloud is here here to stay we got two great guests to unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves we got eugene kim global product marketing and compute storage at cisco global part of marketing manager and fabio corey senior director cloud solutions marketing guys great comeback great thanks for coming back appreciate it thanks very much great to see a lot of guys so probably we've had multiple conversations and usually even out from the sales force given kind of the that the discussion and the motivation cloud is big it's here it's here to stay it's changing Cisco API first we hear and all the products it's changing everything what's the story now what's going on I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona it's because this time it's all about the application experience I mean the last two years we've been announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space right think about all the announcements with the AWS the Google's the Azure so the world but this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributed world well there is an application explosion ultimately we will help for the right operations tools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer and that's incredibly important because at the end what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer otherwise ultimately nothing is gonna work and of course you're going to lose your brand and your customers one of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry also Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote you had app dynamics first not networking normally it's like what's under the hood the routers and the gear no it was about the applications this is the story we're seeing it's kind of a quiet unveiling it's not yet a launch but it's evolving very quickly can you share what's going on behind this all this absolutely it's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement if you want from the application experience side of the house is because without dynamics we already have a very very powerful application performance measurement tool which it's evolving extremely rapidly first of all after Amex can correlate not just the application performance to some technology kpi's but to true actual business KPIs so AB dynamics can give you for instance the real-time visibility of say a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level and that's the dynamics experience journey Maps what are those it's actually the ability of focusing not so much on front-ends and backends and databases performances but really focusing on what the user is seeing in front of his or her screen and so what really matters is capturing the journey that a given user of your application is is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver oh you have like a sudden drop of somewhere and you know why that is important because in the end we've been talking about is it a problem of the application performance user performance well it could be a badly designed page how do you know and so this is a very precious information is that were giving to application developers not just to the IT ops guys that is incredibly precious to get this in so you just brought up that journey so that's part of the news so just break down real quick one minute yeah what the news is yeah so we have three components the first one as you as you correctly pointed out is really introduction the application journey Maps right the experience journey Maps that's very very important the second is we are actually integrating after am it's with the inter-site action inter-site optimization manager the workload team is a workload promisor and so because there is a change of data between the two now you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem we have a workload problem or infrastructure problem which is ultimate what you really need to do as quickly as you can and thirdly we have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform which is hyper-converged flat G flat for Cisco with a fully containerized version we tax free if you want as well there is a great platform for containerized application of parameter so you teen when I've been talking to customers last few years when they go through their transformational journey there's the modernization they need to do the patterns I've seen most successful is first you modernize the platform often HCI is you know and often for that it really simplifies the environment you know reduces the silos and has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is and then if I've got a good platform then I can modernize the applications on top of it but often those two have been a little bit disconnected it feels like the announcements now that they are coming together what are you seeing what are you hearing how is your solution set solving this issue yeah exactly I mean as we've been talking to our customers love them are going through different application modernisations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them and to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs and so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talked to us about a lot of it has to be able to it's got to be very simple very turnkey and a fully integrated ready to turn on the other one is something that's very agile right very DevOps friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on Prem as far we mentioned high flex application platform takes our hyper-converged system and builds on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability and it provides a full stack fully supported element platform for our customers and the one of the best great aspects of is that's all managed from inside from the physical infrastructure to the hyper-converged layer to all the way to the container management so it's very exciting to have that full stack management and insight as well yeah it's great to you know John and I have been following this kubernetes wave you know since the early early days Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Google's the world because you know a few years ago you talked to customers and they're like oh well I'm just gonna build my own urbanity right back nobody ever said that is easy now just delivering at his service seems to be the way most people wanted so if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google they've got their manage service that I could do that or that they're through partners they're working with so explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment because I'm tram absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation the customers need yes so essentially from the customer experience perspective as I mentioned it's very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flicks application platform we're taking our hyper grew software we're integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it Linux KVM based and then on top of that we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top as well and so in essence right it's a fully curated kubernetes stack right it has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and and providing that in a very turnkey way and as I mentioned the inner site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management ok Fabio this the previous announcement you've made with the public clouds yeah this just ties into those hybrid environments that's exactly you know a few years ago people like oh is there gonna be a distribution that wins in kubernetes we don't think that's the answer but still I can't just move between kubernetes you know seamlessly yet but this is moving towards that direction so a lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation at the same time they want of course a multi cloud approach and I really care about you know marking the difference between you know multi-cloud hybrid cloud there's been a lot of confusion but if you think about it multi cloud is really rooted into the business need of harnessing innovation from whatever it comes from you know the different clouds PV different things and you know what they do today tomorrow it could even change so people want option maladie so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking security and application of workload management and we've been executing towards that goal to fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid environments I want you to nail that operations on ibrid that's where multi cloud comes in absolutely just a connection point absolutely you're not a shitty mice no isn't a shit so in order to fulfill your business like your I know business needs you then you have a hybrid problem and you want to really kind of have a consistent production rate environment between fins on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better now of course there are different school of thoughts but most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every clock I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is because a lot of times it's a point the finger at the other first and where's it's the application problem isn't a problem so I want to get into that but first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform Eugene if you could just share the main problem that you guys saw what did some of the pain points that customers had what problems does the AP solve yeah as I mentioned it's really the platform for our customers to modernize their applications on right and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right really the ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to you know but you know bringing any third party hypervisor licenses as well as support cost so that's fully integrated there you have your integrated hyper-converged storage capability you have the cloud-based management and that's really developing you providing that developer DevOps simplicity from the data Julie that they're looking for internally as well as for their product production environments and then the other aspect is its simplicity to be able to manage all this right in the entire lifecycle management as well so it's the operational side of the whole yeah uncovers Papio on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a little bit skeptical you know normally rightfully so but I can see in a problem where it's like whose fault is it gasification is problem or the network I mean it runs into more serious workloads the banking app that's having trouble how do you know where it what the problem is and how do you solve that problem what what's going on for that specific issue absolutely and you know the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side right and I love what our app dynamics VP GM Danny winoker said you know it has this terminology beast DevOps which you know may sound like an interesting acrobatics but it's absolutely true the business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because as you said you know developer edges you know drops their containers and their code to the IET ops team but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is gonna be in the code or in how the application is actually deployed or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU so in the end it boils down to one very important thing you have to have visibility inside and take action and every layer of the stack I mean instrumentation absolutely there are players that only do it in their software overlay domain the problem is very often these kind of players assume that underneath links are fine and very often they're not so in the end this visibility inside inaction is the loop that everybody is going after these days to really get to the next if you want generational operation where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace right regardless of your IT ops if you're faster than your competitor well still still was questioning the GM of AppDynamics running observability and he's like no it's not to feature it's everywhere so he his comment was yeah but serve abilities don't really talk about it because it's big din do you agree with that absolutely it has to be at every layer of the stack and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stack from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problem otherwise the finger-pointing quote-unquote will continue and you will not be able to gain the speed that you need okay so the question on my mind I want to get both of you guys can weigh in on this is that you look at Cisco as a company you got a lot going on I mean a guy's huge customer base core routers - no applications there's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity you got IOT security Ramirez talked about that you got the WebEx rooms got totally popular it's kind of got a lot of glam to it having the WebEx kind of you know I guess what virtual presence was yeah telepresence kind of model and then you get cloud is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything because you can't do IOT edge without having some sort of cloud operational things so there's stuff you're talking about is not just a division it's kind of gonna it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco what's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around clarification well I would say it's it's a couple of dimension the first one is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture that of course is the cornerstone of Cisco's technology strategy right if you think about it it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the user the applications themselves like if you look at the latest stats from IDC 58% of workloads is heading to the public cloud and to the edge it's like the data center is literally exploding in many different directions so you have this highly distributed kind of fabric guess what sits in between all these applications and microservices is a secure network and that's exactly what we're executing upon now that's the first kind of consideration the second is if you look at the other silver line most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure you look at the IP flex ap is actually managed by inter site which is a SAS kind of component this journey started a long time ago with Cisco Meraki and then of course we have SAS properties like WebEx everything else is kind of absolutely migrants reporter we've been reporting eugen that from years ago we saw the movement where api's are starting to come in when you go back five years ago not a lot of the gear and stuff at Cisco had api's now you got api's building into all the new products that's right you see the software shift with you know you know intent-based networking to AppDynamics it's interesting it's you're seeing kind of this agile mindset this is some of you and I talk about all the time but agile now is the new model is it ready for customers I mean the normal Enterprise is still got the infrastructure and application it's separated okay how do I bring it together what are you guys seeing the customer base what's going on with with not that not the early adopters heavy-duty hardcore pioneers out there but you know the the general mainstream enterprise are they there yet have they had that moment of awakening yeah I mean I think they they are there because fundamentally it's all about that ensuring that application experience and you can only ensure that application experience right by having your application teams and your structure teams work together and that's what's exciting you mentioned the API is and what we've done there with AppDynamics integrating with inter-site workload optimizer as Fabio mentioned it's all about visibility inside action and what app dynamics is provides providing that business and end-user application performance experience visibility inner sites giving you know visibility on the underlining workload and the resources whether it's on Prem in your you know drive data center environment or in different type of cloud providers so you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inner side local optimizer is then also optimizing the resources to proactively ensure that application experience so before you know if we talk about someone at a checkout and they're about to have abandonment because the functions not working we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that so you know in the end I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with app dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application is performing and at the same time if there's an issue the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology where the issue is and insert' aeneas lee whether it be manual intervention or even automatically there's or a ops capability go ahead and provide that action so the action could be you know scaling out the VMS it's on-prem or looking at a new different type of ec2 template in the cloud that's what's very exciting about this it's really the application experience is now driving and optimizing infrastructure in real time and let me flip your question like do you even have a choice John when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications if you're a large enterprise you have 5 to 7,000 apps you have another to 3,000 applications just coming into into the the frame and then 50% of the existing ones that are gonna be refactor lifted and shifted or replace or retired by SAS application it's just like it's tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh by the way because of again the micro service is kind of affect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly like last year we were eight average interdependencies for applications now we are 20 so imaging imaging what happens as as you are literally flooded with the way the scanner really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can still and I have been toilet for at least five years now if not longer the networking has been the key kind of last changeover - clarification and I would agree with you guys I think I've asked the question because I wanted to get your perspective but think about it it's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that a mobile app can change business but now if you look at the pressure the network's bringing the pressure on the network or the pressure for the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data I mean so you got mobile check now you've got video I mean more people doing video now than ever before videos of consumer oil as streaming you got data these two things absolutely forced yeah the customers to deal with it but what really tipped the the balance John is is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because as you know it's in IT sort of inflection points nothing is linear right so once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps and we're absolutely there already all of a sudden you're traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically so why in the world are you continuing kind of you know concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the internet you have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level as close to the users as possible and that implies a radical change I would even add to that and I think you guys are right on where you guys are going it may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco but in the keynote the business model shifts come from SAS so you got all this technical stuff going on now you have this Asif ocation or cloud that's changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players can get better so I think that whole business model conversation yeah never was discussed at Cisco live before yeah in depth as well hey run your business connect your hubs campus move packets around that was applications in business model yeah but also the fact that there is increasing number of software capabilities and so fundamental you want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer by now using what they really need right at any given point in time all the way to having enterprise agreements I also think that's about delivering these application experiences for your business small different type experience that's really what's differentiating you from your different competitors right and so I think that's a different type of shift as well well you guys are good got some good angle on this cloud I love it I got to ask you the question what can we expect next from Cisco more progression along clarification what's next well I would say we've been incredibly consistent I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy which again is centered around helping customers really gluon this mix set of data centers and clouds to make it work as one write as much as possible and so what we really deliver is networking security and application of performance management and we're integrating there's more and more on the two sides of the equation right the the designer side and the powerful outside and more more integrating in between all of these layers again to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster we'll continue doing so and you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to the sales teams what are they what's their vibe with the sales team they get excited by this what's that oh yeah feedback oh yeah absolutely from the inner side were claw optimizer and they have dynamics that's very exciting for them especially the conversations they're having with their customers really from that application experience and proactively insuring it and on the hyper flex application platform side this is extremely exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers and you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize their applications on hyper flex you guys are riding some pretty big waves here at Cisco I get a cloud way to get the IOT Security wave it's pretty exciting pretty big stuff thanks for coming in thanks for sharing the insights Fabio I appreciate it thank you for having us your coverage here in Barcelona I'm John Force dude Minutemen be back with more coverage fourth day of four days of cube coverage we right back after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] why Trump Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back to Barcelona everybody we're here at Cisco live and you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we got to the events and extract the signal from the noise this is day one really we started a zero yesterday Eric Hertzog is here he's the CMO and vice president of storage channels probably been on the cube more than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage day four of four days of wall-to-wall action here in Barcelona Spain Francisco live 2020 I'm John Ferrier with mykos Dave Volante with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco live the president of Europe Middle East Africa and Russia Francisco Wendy Mars cube alumni great to see you thanks for coming on to kind of put a bookend to the show here thanks for joining us right there it's absolutely great to be here thank you so what a transformation as Cisco's business model of continues to evolve we've been saying brick by brick we still think is a big move coming I think there's more action I can sense the walls talking to us like let's just go live in the US and more technical announcements in the next 24 months you can see you can see where it's going it's cloud its apps yeah its policy based program ability it's really a whole nother business model shift for you and your customers the technology shift and the business model shift so I want to get your perspective of this year opening key no you let it off talking about the philosophy of the business model but also the first presenter was not a networking guy it was an application person yeah app dynamics yep this is a shift what's going on with Cisco what's happening what's the story well you know if you look for all of the work that we're doing is but is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers the change that's happening in the market and it is all around you know if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in how do they capture that opportunity how do they use technology to help them but you know if you look at it really there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution it's actually the business operations for for organisations plus their people there are people in the communities within that those three things working together and if you look at it with you know it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco that linkage of the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network and bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insight and the value our customers are looking for you know we've been talking about the in the innovation sandwich you know you got you know date in the middle and you got technology and applications underneath that's kind of what's going on here but you I'm glad you brought up the year the part about business model business operations and people in communities because during your keno you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars yes people in communities business model and business operations there was no 800 series in there there was no product discussions this is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing I tweeted provocatively the killer app and digital the business model because you think about it the applications are the business and what's running under the covers is the technology but it's all shifting and changing so every single vertical every single business is impacted by this it's not like a certain secular thing in the industry this is a real change can you describe how those three things are operating with that constitute think if you look from you know so thinking through those three areas if you look at the actual business model itself our business models as organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers we are all much more specific about what we want we have incredible choice in the market we are more informed than ever before but also we are interested in the values of the organizations that were getting the capability from as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain so if you look in that business model itself this is about you know organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring but also that they have a strong strong focus around the experience that their customer gains from an application a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels which is at the end of the day the application then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems the tools and the processes as we all evolve our businesses you have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that and then of course in driving any transformation the critical success factor is your people and your culture you need your teams with you the way teams operate now is incredibly different it's no longer command and control its agile capability coming together you need that to deliver on any transformation never never mind let it be smooth you know in the execution there so it's all three together what I like about that model and I have to say we this is you know ten years to do in the cube you you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens not surprising as we entered the last decade it was a lot of talk about cloud well it kind of was a good predictor we heard a lot about digital transformations a lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword but we really are I feel like an exiting this cloud era into the digital era it feels real and there are companies that you know get it and are leaning in there are others that maybe you're complacent I'm wondering what you're seeing in in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital yeah be CEO wants to get it right but there is complacency there when it's a services say well I'm doing pretty well not on my watch others say hey we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted what are you seeing in the region in terms of that sentiment I would say across the region you know there will always be verticals and industries that are slightly more advanced than others but I would say that then the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance of transfer digital transformation is here it is affecting my business i if I don't disrupt I myself will be disrupted and be challenged help me so I you know I'm not disputing the end state I need guidance and support to drive the transition and a risk mythic mitigated manner and they're looking for help in that and there's actually pressure in the boardroom now around a what are we doing within within organizations within that enterprise the service right of the public said to any type of style of company there's that pressure point in the boardroom of come on we need to move it speed now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role in contribute it's not the be-all end-all but plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations and developing and nurturing communities can you add more specifics what role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three spheres so I think you know if you look at it technology is fundamental to all of those spheres in regard to the innovation the differentiation technology can bring then the key challenges one of being able to reply us in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business so in then the customers organization otherwise it's just technology for the sake of technology so we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case the use cases the way by which that innovation can be used to deliver the value to the organization and also different ways by which a company will work look at the collaboration capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility look at the app D discussion of helping to link the layer of the application into the infrastructure the network's to get to root cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you thought it actually arises and causes downtime many many ways I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation a gel methodology technology software development no problem check that's ten years ago but business agility mmm it's moving from a buzzword to reality exactly that's what you're kind of getting in here and teams how teams operate how they work you know and being able to be quick efficient stand up stand down and operate in that way you know we were kind of thinking out loud on the cube and just riffing with Fabio gory on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with Eugene Kim around just just kind of real-time what was interesting is we're like okay it's been 13 years since the iPhone and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe Middle East Africa mobilities been around before the iPhone so with in more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region so you got you out you have a region that's pretty much I think the tell signs for what's going on in North America and around the world and so you think about that you say okay how is value created how the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay if the value activities are shifting and be more agile and the economics are changing with sass if someone's not on this bandwagon it's not an in-state discussion where it's done deal yeah it's but I think also there were some other conversation which which are very prevalent here is in in the region so around trust around privacy law understanding compliance you look at data where data resides portability of that data GDP are came from Europe you know and as ban is pushed out and those conversations will continue as we go over time and if I also look at you know the dialogue that you saw so you know within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain you know from a climate standpoint and many other areas as well Dave and I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from it's coming from Europe region not so much the u.s. I mean us discuss some crazy innovations but look at blockchain us is like don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States little bit dangerous to but that's where innovation is coming from and this is really the key that we're focused on I want to get your thoughts on how do you see it going next level the next level next-gen business model what's your what's your vision so I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like with the introduction of artificial intelligence robotics capability 5g of course you know on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona in a few weeks time and if you talked about with the iPhone the smartphone of course when 4G was introduced no one knew what the use case would that would be it was the smartphone which wasn't around at that time so with 5g in the capability there that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and the capability and what we can bring to market when we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important some of the things you were talking about before it's interesting what you're saying John and when the the GDP are set the standard and and you see in the u.s. there are stovepipes for that standard California is going to do one every state is going to have a different center that's going to slow things down that's going to slow down progress do you see sort of an extension of a GDP are like framework of being adopted across the region and that potentially you know accelerating some of these you know sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward I think I think the will because I think there'll be more and more you know if you look at there's this terminology of data is the new oil what do you do with data how do you actually get value from that data and make intelligent business decisions around that so you know that's critical but yet if you look for all of ours we are extremely passionate about you know where is our data used again back to trust and privacy you need compliance you need regulation you know I think this is just the beginning of how we will see that evolve you know when do I get your thoughts does Dave and I have been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage long live storage and but data needs to be stored somewhere networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away in fact there's more pressure now forget the smartphone that was 13 years ago before that mobility data and video now super important driver that's putting more pressure on you guys and so hey we're networking so it's kind of like Moore's law it's like more networking more networking so video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video but if you look at the Internet of the future you know what so if you look for all of us now we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access to that and inter vetted the future the next phase we want even more so there'll be more and more - you know requirement for speed availability that reliability of service the way by which we engage and we communicate there's some fundamentals there so continuing to to grow which is which is so so exciting for us so you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of c-level executives I got to believe security is up there as a topic what other what's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers so I think that there's a huge excitement around the opportunity realizing the value of the of the opportunity you know if you look at top of mind conversations are around security around making sure that you can make tank maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the custom will go elsewhere how do you do that how do you enrich at all times and also looking at markets adjacencies you know as you go in and you talk at senior levels within within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in there are a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve and actually one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate at and when is it too fast and when is what am I too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for companies so you feel like sentiment is still strong even though we're 10 years into this this bull market you know you got Briggs it you get you know China tensions with the US u.s. elections but but generally you see Tennessee sentiment still pretty strong and demand so I would say that the the excitement around technology the opportunity that is there around technology in its broadest sense is greater than ever before and I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume I see value from us but it's you know it's fantastic science it tastes trying to get some economic indicators but really the real thing I'm trying to get you is Minh set of the CEO the corner office right now is it is it we're gonna we're gonna grow short-term by cutting or do we do are we gonna be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity and it's probably both you're seeing a lot of automation yeah and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations it's it's that the three things helped me to make money how me to save money keep me out of trouble you know so those are the pivots they all operate with and you know depending on where an organization is in its journey whether a start-up there you know in in the in the mid or the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in as well there's all different variables you know so it's it's it's mix Wendy thanks so much for spending the time to come on the cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching if you haven't seen the keynote opening sections that's a good section the business model I think it's really right on I think that's going to be a conversation it's going to continue thanks for sharing that before we look before we leave I want to just ask you a question around what you what's going on for you here at Barcelona as the show winds down you had all your activities take us in the day of the life of what you do customer meetings what were some of those conversations take us inside inside what what goes on for you here well I'd say it's been an amazing it's been an amazing few days so it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes we just talked about conversations with partners and there's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with and also you know spending time with the teams as well the DEF net zone you know is amazing we have this afternoon the closing session where we've got a fantastic external guest who's coming in it's going to be really exciting as well and then of course the party tonight and we'll be announcing the next location which I'm not gonna reveal now later on today we kind of figured it out already because that's our job and there's the break news but we're not gonna break it for you you can have that hey thank you so much for coming on really appreciate Wendy Martin expecting the Europe Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got our hand on the pulse and the future is the business model that's what's going on fundamental radical change across the board in all areas this the cue bringing you all the action here in Barcelona thanks for watching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]

from London England it's the cube covering Koopa inspire 19 Mei brought to you by Koopa hey welcome to the cube Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Koopa inspire 19 very pleased to welcome to the cube for the first time we have Dean Henry the EVP of business financing and supplier management from American Express Dean welcome to the cube thank you happy to be here so let's talk about payments we those of us in our date lives as consumers the b2c transactions are so easy these days right you can transact from your phone from your watch it's we're doing everything we're paying bills we're buying things yet in the b2b space business payments haven't had as rapid as innovation as we seen on the on the consumer side talk to me a little bit about the business-to-business payments industry from MX's perspective before we get in to what you guys are doing with Cooper yeah well first comment on on the innovation you're absolutely right the innovation that's happening and retail payments hasn't made its way to b2b payments I think that's mostly a function of you know a consumer having the ease to try something new download an app and and change the way that they transact a bit at a store but with with whomever they're paying whereas a big business has a lot of processes that drive their their business spend and the way that they manage it and systems and you know as we're here talking with Koopa today you know the the processes that they automate and that they bring are critical to you know making payments happen and because because of that there's just barriers to entry that make make b2b payments harder to mirror the speed that you see in the retail side that said there's a lot of exciting things happening you know b2b payments is a hundred and twenty seven trillion dollar market globally it's a big profit pool that a lot of players are innovating in and when you look into the landscape and you consider who's playing out there you know there's traditional big banks that have been sort of the stalwarts of Global Payments there's obviously a large and grow and growing FinTech community with new companies every day that are in the media offering new capabilities to to clients and then there's players like American Express and I think we're actually uniquely positioned in that landscape with not too many exactly like us and when you look at you know the big banks and some of the challenges that they have when I talk to our customers about fees and and you know processes that take a while or money that moves with with relative uncertainty in terms of how much is actually going to show up and the beneficiaries account based on lifting fees as money moves between banks and then you look at the FinTech community that's new innovative solutions but you're not sure that they're always going to be around you know after the next funding cycle I think we're we're trying to play an in the middle where were a great alternative to the FinTech community we're a global platform for payments we're a global platform for lending so we can really do all the things that a FinTech can do all the things that a bank can do in many instances and and do that with the brand and the certainty that is a max and so we're excited about the space and we're investing a lot of time and energy and and partnering where we need to in order to make sure our customers can transact where they want us to to help them facilitate commerce right that point of enabling a customer to transact where they want what influences are you is the American Express seeing and being able to infuse into your partnerships from the consumer side from that consumer who buy something with a click or a swipe on Amazon and wants to be able to do something similar in their business day job tell me about the influence that American Express is seeing and what that position that you just subscribe is allowing you guys to say all right this is a direction that we're gonna go and because we know yeah I need to meet you mr. customer where you are right what look I think part of it is is demographics to be perfectly honest if you look at Gen Y and Gen Z they're they're more of the decision makers in today's management they will be even more tomorrow's management and so they to your point have that expectation that their business life shouldn't be that much more complex in their personal life so so what we're trying to do is find the partners that have the best user experience and make sure our solutions work seamlessly there that's step one that's that's what we're doing here with Koopa step two is we're also trying to make sure that our capabilities on on Amex a digital real-estate works just it just as easily as our retail side of our business and we're we're doing that you know with a with the unifying principles and American Express which is you know the trust and the service and the brand that that we offer to our clients but then also the the merchant rewards so there's a rich history of of American Express providing a differentiated value proposition with the credit card rewards that that exists and we take take that capability into our our business relationships and make sure that it's a value add to those customers that want it so let's talk about what American Express is doing with Kupa what was it just announced with Koopa pay so yeah Koopa pay you know I was impressed by the stats that Rob put up there they're they're growing quickly and we want to be part of it we're a candidly following the requests of our clients who want American Express as a payment option inside the Koopa pay we offer a tremendous value prop inside of Koopa pay the data that flows with a payment the data that we're able to collect that differentiates us from our competition helps our our clients reconcile their payments eliminate the paper realize the efficiencies that that Koopas clients are excited about and so we're they're simply enabling American Express to be a payment option and my hope and I think Koopas hope is that that's step one of a partnership and and will be able to do more together to serve our collective clients so this is enabling American Express of virtual cards be available as a payment option within Kupa pay yes and what is a virtual card so virtual card is is a virtual credit card number it can be a one-time use or a multi-use okay and you know our our clients use it for several different reasons you know buyers of of goods use a virtual card in order to make the payment of a supplier easier to get more data along with the transaction so that they can reconcile a payment to a purchase order and to associated invoices the suppliers get benefit as well and in that they to get enhanced data to reconcile payment that they receive on their end there's also working capital benefit in that if if a buyer chooses to pay early an invoice we can extend financing and pay the the supplier earlier so that they have more working capital to operate their business and so so it's a real balanced value prop where both parties are realizing value is this going to enable a buyer to have benefits like increased security with the way the virtual card works yeah what increased security and so far as a virtual card isn't is encrypted the fact that you know American Express stands behind all of our card payments with our brand and our promise that differentiates from you know a traditional bank payment you know ACH and other other low value clearings that don't have those guarantees along with it and so so that is a big differentiator but but I think candidly the the biggest benefit our clients see is the enhanced data and the working capital I think that's where we're trying to enrich both sides of the transaction give more data to enable the automation that's happening in the industry and extend credit so that businesses can operate more efficiently and and and by the things that they need to buy and hire the people they need to hire is this also something that will give suppliers and buyers more visibility you talked about enhanced data well they now have more visibility over buyers like different supplier options or suppliers with different ways that they can get paid so certainly enhance visibility on on when a suppliers getting paid and relative to the invoice date and what we're trying to do is work with Koopa and work with our partners around well how do we enhance the data so that so that as you know Koopa talks about the community of suppliers that their buyers utilize how can we be part of that how do we support the buyers and making decisions the suppliers and utilizing American Express as a as a source to be a verified business that has gone through all the legal legal checks that are required in commerce and bringing both of those capabilities to to do a transaction on the Koopa Network one of the stats that Rob mentioned this morning and love stats I really geeked out over them I don't know why you say there's five million plus suppliers on the Koopa platform is that an advantage that American Express sees to help extend the footprint of your virtual cards absolutely I what I'm candidly more excited about is the millions and millions of suppliers that are on the American Express network and that's an asset that I see personally as something that we can work with with Koopa and other partners to bring you know the businesses that are already verified that are on our network that we personally talk to every you know every year and bring those verified profiles to the commerce networks like Koopa so that it's easier to transact on Koopa if you have an American Express card got it and then last question for you is if we look at this partnership what was announced today this is launching in the UK and Australia first and then you'll roll it up more globally can you tell me a little bit about why those two regions yeah one that's going to be available for customers to use so so the honest answer is we wanted to be fast to market and quick and quick out to our customer base the UK and Australia are two very important geographies for us so we're launching first in those places by the end of the year and then looking at rolling out in the US and early 2020 and then from their expanding alongside excellent well Dean thank you for joining me on the cube this afternoon sharing what's new with Amex and Cooper we appreciate your time thank you so much really happy to be here excellent for Dean Henry I'm Lisa Martin you're watching the cube from Cooper inspire London 19 thanks for watching [Laughter]

>>From London, England. It's the cube covering Kupa inspire 19 PVR after you by Cooper. >>Hi. Welcome to the cube Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Kupa inspire 19 please do welcome back to the cube Ravi talker, the SVP, a business acceleration that Cooper won't be welcome back. It's great to be back. Thanks for having me. Likewise. So lots of, lots of buzz around us. Everyone's eating lunch, but there's a lot of folks here in London, a lot of exciting news coming out in this morning. Lot of customers and fused in Rob's keynote. I lost count of how many great customer examples were showed. Talk to us a little bit about Kupa pay and some of the innovations that you guys are delivering now. >>Yeah, absolutely. So pay pays a great new area for Coupa. We call it the fourth pillar and Rob's analogy of the pipe procurement, invoicing, payment and expenses. And so actually we started this journey a really last year at this event where we announced virtual card for purchase orders and a strategic relationship with Barclaycard. And over that past year we've done some amazing things with relationships with JP Morgan, Citibank, and we just announced a great relationship with American express to provide American express virtual cards on the Coupa pay platform. So we've been working hard at it. We've seen some really good success early success with customers. Uh, we announced some other great innovations in our Vegas conference just a few months ago where we announced invoice payments is generally available along with partnerships with Stripe and PayPal. So it's been really busy. >>It has been the B2B payments space. It's a big market, 1.2, I think trillion global and global volume. But it's also challenging because on the consumer side, on the BDC side, it's so easy for us to do transactions right on our phone, tablet watches, and we had this expectation that we can pay for anything. We can find anything, we can pay bills so easily. But on the B2B side there's a lot more complexity. The BDB hasn't, payments hasn't been able to innovate nearly as quickly as on the consumer side. But I'd love to get your thoughts on what is Cooper able to leverage with Coupa pay that's maybe going to start meeting some of the demands of those business folks who in their consumer lives have this expectation of a swipe or a click to do a transaction. >>Yeah, it's a completely different ball game consumer versus B2B, whole avenues around risk profiles of your suppliers. You know if you pay a supplier that's doing illegal business are doing place and where the government doesn't allow it puts your brand and your reputation at risk. Very serious risks. And so we incorporate a lot of what we do with the community. So you heard Rob talk about that in his keynote. A lot of things around community intelligence. So for us being able to rely on thousands of customers of data, millions of transactions, being able to see things across all of our customers and really create alerts and transactional efficiencies for our customers in B2B payments. That's a big change for our customers and we're just starting to get to see some of those transactional elements. I think the second thing that we've seen with B2B payments, and it's interesting money, 2020 is one of the largest, uh, payment conferences, uh, in the world. And it happened I think last week or the week before in Vegas. And this year has been a lot of talk about B2B payments, whereas last year is mostly B to C. and so we feel we've been making an impact in the entire payments area because to us it's bringing together all of the different payment rails, whether it's virtual card or bank transfers or cross border, but being able to do it across dozens and hundreds of countries and it global fashion. That's a big game changer for large enterprises. >>So one of the things that was a theme this morning during the keynote was trust. I had the opportunity to speak with Rachel Botsman trust expert who did a keynote this morning. And as we look at some of the numbers that Rob shared, you mentioned a few of over a thousand plus customers using Coupa. I think he's shared over 5 million suppliers on the platform. You talked about this community, this massive community that you are co creating with. Talk to me about Coupa pay and its ability to help deliver that trust so that Coupa can be that trusted advisor that it wants to be with. It's not just its customers but as partners too. >>No, absolutely. And Rachel's presentation this morning was fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, uh, my background actually I Kupa for a decade I ran customer success. So I engaged with C level executives at all of our customers. And as part of that process, a trust was a big factor in that when we said something we would deliver that. And over the course of the years that coop has been around about 1314 years we've held very true. That stands in our number one core value of ensuring customer success. And when you look at all of the customers that are willing to put their six, what we call success metrics, how much they've spent saved the spend that they have under management when they are publicly talking about it. That's trust that we've created with them in this partnership because they believe in what our ability to deliver says we decided to go into payments or we're trust and payments is a very big deal as mentioned earlier. Right? You don't get necessarily fired for screwing up our purchase order or an invoice, but if you send money to the wrong supplier to the wrong country, you know, there's a lot of risk associated with that. So we take that very, very seriously and how we've been developing and creating solutions around Kupa pay. And so it's just the overall Avenue that we work with our, we treat them as partners, not as a vendor supplier relationship. And because of that we have this mutual trust that we're both in this together in this large community. >>Yeah. And Rachel Botsman talk about sort of that balance between, uh, trust and risk. Yeah. Which was very interesting concept. Um, talk to me about, I'm just thinking like even from a fraud on a supplier perspective, one of the things I know that Cuba is able to do is alert a customer, Hey, there's a supplier that has a history of whatever it happens to me that's, that's my inflict risk on that customer. Tell me a little bit about that. From a trust risk kind of balanced perspective, what you guys are delivering there. >>It's a great area that we're just really starting to get into as well. And so being able to leverage the community of buyers and suppliers and having everything in a single code system code platform allows us to do a number of these things. And so for providing our customers, not the necessarily the, the exact thing that they should do, but providing them the relevant information in order for them to make the right decisions. Yeah. There's an old adage that I go by which is trust but verify. And so it's the same similar concept here. It's our goal to provide these prescriptions to our customers on what is the supplier doing or how can you improve your processes. And with these prescriptions, as Rob mentioned this morning, it's, it's up to our customers to choose what they want to do with those prescriptions. Sometimes they may take it, sometimes they may not >>and he gave a number, I want to say 22,000 prescriptions and he gave a time period in the past 12 months. That's what I thought as well. So a lot of insight literally coming out of that community. Love to chat though about the community in terms of the B2B payment space, not only we talked about how it's being influenced by consumers, but the changing role of procurement and finance. Yeah, a lot of just disruption there. We talked about that a few months ago and didn't get a lot of opportunity for financial leaders to become much more strategic and a lot of the examples that Rob shared showed how impactful company wide the impact that procurement folks, finance folks can make. Talk to me about how the Coupa is leveraging that community to help them get more visibility on how that procurement role is changing and how Coupa can help it be much more strategic. You know what I, that's a great question. And >>what I respond with that is, what's the name of our conference? It's inspire, right? We want to inspire this community to really go to that next level and really look deep inside themselves. It, Rob talks about all these different adjectives of Brown, all the different, what we call spend setters. It's a great initiative that we've created because we're giving our community of voice and that's always the biggest thing in how you affect change. How do you give people a voice? How do you give someone a story that they can grasp onto such that they can make it their own, such as they can take those facts and that relevance and apply it to their own day to day jobs. And that's a big thing that we're looking to do. But it requires going back to trust. It requires a little bit of trust in what we're doing. And by providing those stories, it gives these, our customers, our champions, uh, the ability to fall back on those, have that foundation for how to make change, how to disrupt their organizations. You know, Rob gave that great example of Telenor. You know, their seep, their chief procurement officer created a blueprint and a plan to provide mobile service. I think it was an India is a great example of what an individual can do and when you're that individual and you have visibility and tall your supply base into all of the spend going across your company, it's very, very powerful. >>I saw a survey that Cuba did recently have, I think 253 financial decision makers in the U K and some of the stats were quite shocking that 96% I believe said we do not have complete visibility over our entire spend. Right. Wow. Right. That's because one, some of the things that Rob shared this morning was the massive, massive savings that companies can achieve, but not having that visibility. You've got blinders on. There's a lot of risk there. There's a lot of expenses that probably should be going into procurement, but that was really 96% saying we don't have complete visibility. What's Cooper's answer to that? >>You know, it's, it's an interesting statistic. Right? And I, I gave a presentation I think seven, eight years ago, and I started off that presentation with saying, you know, if you are an HR and you didn't have track of all your employees, you'd be fired. If you're a head of sales and you didn't have an understanding of all of your open opportunities for business, you'd be fired. So why is that different for spend? Right? Why not have visibility and have access to all of the different spin that's happening across your company? And your Rob said it best in his keynote. We talked about what's actually happening in the world today. It's not necessarily around customer relationship management software, CRM, right? It's not necessarily around human capital management, but it's the well capitalized businesses of the world today. And today's day and age and this uncertainty of Brexit, uncertainty of the global climate, us, China trade relations, who's well capitalized to make and withstand what could be some, you know, unsettling times. Now there's another very interesting thing we saw with that same survey. Excuse me. Along with some of the things we saw with the wall street journal with some surveys we did with them, these finance professionals, they want to have that visibility and our answer to them come talk to us. >>So speaking of influence, inspiring, tell me a little bit about how the Coupa community influenced or is influencing the evolution of Coupa pay for example was Hey, we've got to have Amex virtual cards integrated with Coupa pay. Was that something that came from the voice of the community? Yeah, so we, >>you know, all across Koopa ever since the inception of the company, it's always around partnering with our customers, with our community to really listen and understand what they, what they're looking for. But doing it in the guy in the, within the framework of our core values as a customer, as a company. And the first one that I mentioned earlier, ensuring customer success. So we want to listen to our customers, we want to better understand them. So around virtual cards, you know, how do we choose to do an Amex or a Barclaycard? And to us it's actually pretty simple. We wanted to make sure that we're able to cover 80 to 90% of our customers with these large issuers. And we've been able to do that over the past year in negotiating these agreements, figuring out the technology components. And so we've been executing and delivering on that over the past, uh, over the past year. >>And if I understand that the press release correctly, KUKA pay with Amex virtual court integration is launching first in the UK and Australia. Correct. Can you tell me a little bit about those markets and what were some of the deciding factors? They said, Hey, well we'll go, we'll parlay on your title of acceleration. Is this, are these the right markets to launch and to accelerate copay? >>Yeah. Um, you know, there's obviously a lot of different ways and opportunities that American express has to go to market, massive company, great company to partner with. And so what we saw with them is from a technology standpoint, starting off in the UK and Australia made the most sense. We also have existing demand with customers that are ready to get going and really help us make sure that we create the right experience. You know, we expect this partnership to be really big and so as part of that, we want to make sure that we're able to deliver in certain markets first before we expand this and make this a much bigger thing. American express has a very prestigious brand. We want to respect and support that and we have our own brand that we want to support with our customers. We want to make sure we do it right. >>Well, Ravi, last question. I know that you're keynoting tomorrow. Yes. What are the couple of takeaways that you're going to leave the audience with tomorrow during your keynote? >>Yeah, it's a great, good question. I think the, the takeaways for tomorrow is we want to share some stories. You know, going back to inspiration, it's all about storytelling. Do we have stories to tell our customers such that they can relate to it and fall back on that? So we have three great customer speakers tomorrow. Really excited about the stories that they're going to share about Cooper pay and their journey with it. And my take away for our are the audiences. How do those stories relate to your business and is there a way that we can help you streamline your payment process? >>Awesome. Robbie, it's been a pleasure. You back on the cube. Best of luck at your keynote tomorrow and we'll see you at the next inspire. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All right. For Ravi talker, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from London. Coupa inspire 19.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE. Covering Coupa Inspire'19 EMEA. Brought to you by Coupa. (gentle music) >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin, on the ground in London, at Coupa Inspire'19. Very pleased to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, we have Dean Henry, the EVP of Business Financing and Supplier Management from American Express. Dean, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, happy to be here. >> So let's talk about payments. Those of us in our day lives as consumers, the B2C transactions, they're so easy these days, right? You can transact from your phone, from your watch. We're doing everything. We're paying bills, we're buying things. Yet in the B2B space, business payments haven't had as rapid as innovation, as we've seen on the consumer side. Talk to me a little bit about the business-to-business payments industry from AMEX's perspective, before we get in to what you guys are doing with Coupa. >> Yeah well, first comment on the innovation you're absolutely right. The innovation that's happening in retail payments, hasn't made it's way to B2B payments. I think that's mostly a function of a consumer having the ease to try something new. Download an app, and change the way that they transact a bit at a store. Or, a bit with whomever they're paying. Whereas, a big business has a lot of processes that drive their business spend. And the way that they manage it, and systems. As we're here talking with Coupa today, the processes that they automate, that they bring, are critical to making payments happen. Because of that, there's just barriers to entry, that make B2B payments harder to mirror the speed, that you see in the retail side. That said, there's a lot of exciting things happening. B2B payments is a $127 trillion market globally. It's a big profit pool that a lot of players are innovating in. And when you look into the landscape and you consider who's playing out there. There's the traditional big banks, that have been sort of the stalwarts of global payments. There's obviously a large and growing fintech community, with new companies everyday that are in the media, offering new capabilities to clients. And then there's players like American Express. And I think we're actually uniquely positioned in that landscape, with not too many exactly like us. And when you look at the big banks and some of the challenges that they have. When I talk to our customers about fees, and processes that take awhile. Or money that moves with relative uncertainty, in terms of, how much is actually going to show up in the beneficiary's account, based on lifting fees, as money moves between banks. And then you look at the fintech community. That's new innovative solutions, but you're not sure that they're always going to be around, after the next funding cycle. I think we're trying to play in the middle. Where we're a great alternative to the fintech community. We're a global platform for payments. We're a global platform for lending. So we can really do all the things that a fintech can do. All the things that a bank can do, in many instances. And do that with the brand, and the certainty, that is AMEX. So we're excited about the space. And we're investing a lot of time, and energy. And partnering where we need to, in order to make sure our customers can transact where they want us to help them facilitate commerce. >> Right, that point of enabling a customer to transact where they want. What influences are you, is American Express, seeing and being able to infuse into your partnerships, from the consumer side? From that consumer who buys something with a click, or a swipe on Amazon, and wants to be able to do something similar, in their business day job. Tell me about the influence that American Express is seeing. And what that position that you just described, is allowing you guys to say, all right this is the direction that we're going to go in. Because we know we need to meet you, Mr. Customer, where you are. >> Right, well look I think part of it is demographics to be perfectly honest with you. Look at Gen Y, and Gen Z. They're more of the decision makers in today's management. They will be even more in tomorrow's management. And so they, to your point, have that expectation that their business life shouldn't be that much more complex, than their personal life. So, what we're trying to do is find the partners that have the best user experience. And make sure our solutions work seamlessly there. That's step one, that's what we're doing here with Coupa. Step two, is we're also trying to make sure that our capabilities on Amex, a digital real estate works just as easily as a our retail side of our business. And we're doing that with the unifying principles of American Express, which is the trust, and the service, and the brand that we offer to our clients. But then, also the merchant rewards. So there's a rich history of American Express providing a differentiated value proposition, with the credit card rewards that exist. And we take that capability into our business relationships, and make sure that it's a value add to those customers that want it. >> So let's talk about what American Express is doing with Coupa. What was just announced with Coupa Pay? >> So yeah, Coupa Pay, I was impressed by the stats that Rob put up there. They're growing quickly, and we want to be part of it. We're candidly following the requests of our clients who want American Express, as a payment option inside Coupa Pay. We offer a tremendous value prop inside of Coupa Pay. The data that flows with a payment, the data that we're able to collect, that differentiates us from our competition. Helps our clients reconcile their payments, eliminate the paper, realize the efficiencies that Coupa's clients are excited about. And so, we're there simply enabling American Express to be a payment option. And my hope, and I think Coupa's hope, is that that's step one of a partnership. And we'll be able to do more together, to serve our collective clients. >> So this is enabling American Express virtual cards to be available as a payment option, within Coupa Pay? >> Dean: Yes. >> And what is a virtual card? >> So a virtual card is a virtual credit card number. It can be a one-time use, or multi-use. >> Okay. >> Our clients use it for several different reasons. Buyers of goods use a virtual card, in order to make the payment of a supplier easier. To get more data, along with the transaction, so that they can reconcile a payment to a purchase order, and to associated invoices. The suppliers get benefit as well. In that, they too get enhanced data to reconcile a payment, that they receive on their end. There's also working capital benefit. In that, if a buyer chooses to pay early an invoice, we can extend financing, and pay the supplier earlier. So that they have more working capital to operate their business. So it's a real balanced value prop, where both parties are realizing value. >> Is this going to enable a buyer to have benefits, like increased security, with the way the virtual card works? >> Increase security, in so far as a virtual card is encrypted. The fact that American Express stands behind all of our card payments, with our brand and our promise. That differentiates from a traditional bank payment. You know ACH, and other low value clearings, that don't have those guarantees along with it. So that is a big differentiator. But I think candidly, the biggest benefit our clients see is the enhanced data, and the working capital. I think that's where we're trying to enrich both sides of the transaction. Give more data to enable the automation that's happening in the industry. And extend credit, so that businesses can operate more efficiently. And buy the things they need to buy. And hire the people they need to hire. >> Is this also something that will give suppliers, and buyers, more visibility? You talk about enhanced data. Will they now have more visibility over buyers, like different supplier options? Or suppliers, with different ways that they can get paid? >> So certainly, enhanced visibility on when a supplier is getting paid. And relative to the invoice date. And what we're trying to do is work with Coupa, and work with our partners around, well how do we enhance the data so that as Coupa talks about the community of suppliers, that their buyers utilize. How can we be part of that? How do we support the buyers in making decisions? The suppliers in utilizing American Express as a source to be a verified business, that has gone through all the legal checks, that are required in commerce. And bring both of those capabilities, to a transaction on the Coupa network. >> One of the stats that Rob mentioned this morning. I love stats, I really geek out over them, I don't know why. He said there's five million plus suppliers on the Coupa platform. Is that an advantage, that American Express sees, to help extend the footprint of your virtual cards? >> Absolutely, what I'm candidly more excited about is the millions, and millions, of suppliers that are on the American Express network. And that's an asset that I see personally, as something that we can work with Coupa, and other partners, to bring the businesses that are already verified. That are on our network, that we personally talk to every year. And bring those verified profiles to the commerce networks, like Coupa, so that it's easier to transact on Coupa, if you have an American Express card. >> Got it, and then last question for you is if we look at this partnership, what was announced today, this is launching in the UK and Australia first. And then, you'll roll it out more globally. Can you tell me a little bit about why those two regions? When that's going to be available for customers to use? >> So the honest answer is we wanted to be fast to market, quick out to our customer base. The UK and Australia, are two very important geographies for us. So we're launching first in those places, by the end of the year. And then, looking at rolling out in the US in early 2020. And then, from there expanding alongside Coupa globally. >> Tell me, as we're sitting here in London. Some of the interesting things going on, it's a lot of geopolitical challenges. Everybody knows about Brexit, and the election coming up, on the 12th of December. Tell me a little more about the UK market for American Express. What were some of the market dynamics that Amex said, hey there's an opportunity here for, I'll use a word that Coupa uses, acceleration, like accelerated time to market. Give me a little more about that. >> Yeah I mean candidly, like the geopolitics haven't really played into our launch. But the UK has been a strong market for Amex, for a very, very long time. Brighton, where we have a very big presence with the local football team in Brighton. That's just a metaphor for the broader extension, and client base, and employee presence that we have here. And so we wanted to make a big partnership announcement, in an important place. And the UK felt like the right market to do it in. >> Excellent, well Dean thank you for joining me on theCUBE this afternoon. Sharing what's new, with Amex and Coupa. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. >> Oh excellent. For Dean Henry, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, from Coupa Inspire London '19. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q covering AWS Public sector Bahrain brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> love Run. Welcome back. This two cubes coverage here for a diverse Emmet. We're in by rain in the Middle East Cloud Computing Changing the game telling all the top stories Cloud computing decreasing now being offered Amazons Regions now operational. Our next guest is a maze. Rihan, Chief Technology Officer Arum X, Big global provider of logistics and transportation. Service is welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. >> So you're on a panel this morning? We powertech. It's a women in tech panel graduations. But you're also the CTO of a really big logistics and transportation company. Going to the cloud? Yes. Tell us a story. >> So s O. I work for Allah mix, and Adam makes is a global leader in transportation logistics. Uh, we have we're proud to have a diverse culture, and we have 30% of our management's are females. So, uh, it's only natural to have ah female city. Or but for amex, uh, the whole dish transformation journey and the cloud adoption it started. Ah, like all other enterprises with the whole cloud we've started and we found ourselves competing with corporate, But, uh, not competing with the classical competitors for from the logistic industry but rather competing with innovators are are on companies that are really consuming the best out of the cloud in terms of speed and agility. So we had to transform on there. We created this transformation Lord map on. We fired multiple problems on, uh, this is how it started on. Now we're proud to have Ah, big Italy on AWS on dhe removed a lot of our business processes. Did I from from our machine learning logic that's there. We're modernizing our landscape and moving. >> So you guys are big logistics. A lot of compute powers needed a lot of I t now moving to AWS, which also religious expensive things, a lot of packages around of their business, a lot of compute, a lot of storage lot of I t. Why the shift to the cloud? What was the reason? >> Agility is the most important thing and being able to to create M v P's for for all the ideas that were might have what that we might have to support the business but also ah furthermore, because we needed ah ah, massive computer power. Because whenever you're in the service sector, the number of transactions that you process and the speed of processing Boston's action needs to be a tremendous. And that's the power of the cloud scaling up by then, at the end of the month, when you want to invoice voices with 100 K items, this is what we were looking >> for. So digital transformations complex for you. You have I t. You have your back office, you have a huge organization. I o t must be a big part of it, too, because you've got to keep track of everything. How big is the I O. T or industrial? I ot component of it? >> Well, for our industrial city is very, very relevant. It's going to be transformational on the shipment tracking, handling, uh, and it will shift the way we do business. The one of the main drivers off Beating our big date on AWS was the fact that we want to feed Ah, i ot findings and sensors reading to the club. This is something that we're very serious about, where we're actually I wouldn't I wouldn't say that way. Haven't seen most of the innovations that are related to that. Andi, I think we had some success stories, but for certain sectors, like pharmaceuticals and so on. But the minute those sensors would be commercialized and visible enough to be attached to each and every package, we will be the first. You >> know, we love talking about about two point. Oh, a whole new generation is coming. Yeah, you have compute, you got storage. It's either on premise or it's gonna be in the cloud Network now is important because we've got five g and other you know, radio frequency capabilities, tracking real time data. Do you move? Compute to the data. So an entire paradigm of computing is shifting. >> Yeah, we know it shifting from from the traditional way of doing things where you have your own data centers on the whole communication and work networking setup is built to service. Ah, this architecture off local data centers introducing the cloud. Uh, it would be a challenge. How do you connect both of them? But the way we did it because we were very serious about the cloud moves we prepared right from the beginning So we knew the locations that we selected for our data centers on how close and how we're going to connect him with our own that the centers for for the hybrid set up when we're on both. We were We took it very seriously, and we changed the whole ecosystem that comes around. >> So you got your data lake now? So analytics are important. >> Yes. The lake. We moved our data lake and remove our B I as well. Reporting toe aws on, we created a layer off logic that science logic to derive business processes like your last month delivery G, according address prediction, as well as the understanding, market trends and everything. >> So how's it going with Amazon so far? Good. >> It's going doing very, very well. We've had this data for so long. And Andi. It's a wealth of knowledge of the Indus specific. All our industry. We want to bring the best out of it. Andi could do that. >> And you have in house developers. You talk a little bit. The damage is it? Mostly you've had that for a while, right? Mostly developers. >> Yes, we do have for years. Actually, we've been an in House Development Company. We were building our own applications, like on a very wide range with very good on strict Ah, production and Dev Ops processes. Ah, well, now we're shifting our development towards the clog. We're very open toe to start developing, uh, aws and to adopt even local platforms. Whatever makes us move faster and more flexible. Way. >> Mays, You're on the panel with the Powertech. Limited tech promote diversity. How is diversity changed with the technology innovation? >> Actually, the diversity within the workplace is ah very significant and important driver for innovation on dhe, we at ceramics were very proud on. Did you consider it a differentiator and dynamics edge toe To be a diverse culture, we have more than 80. Nationality is 30%. I told you off our management team are females. Ah, that that gives you a lot off knowledge on also allows you to bring in different age groups off different formats of thinking acknowledge on backgrounds that that really makes change management easier on. You don't really feel any resistance to progress. >> Well, you're an inspiration. What advice would you give women out there watching young girls to professional women looking at their careers. What's your advice? >> Everything. Is this doable? We understand that you come from a region where there there has been a cultural challenges. However, I don't see them anymore, Especially when you work with big enterprises. If you create a balance at home and gender balance will review within your family, then you're OK. >> You do that. You do anything you can tell my wife or kids she could be CEO. Thank you so much for coming on such an insight. Great stuff. Think reporting here in by range. The Cube coverage on John Ferrier. Thanks for watching. We'll be back with more coverage at this rate break.

>> Narrator: From Sand Hill Road, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, presenting the People First Network, insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders. >> Hello and welcome to a special Cube conversation, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here at Mayfield Fund on Sand Hill Road, Venture Cap for investing here for the People First co-created production by theCube and Mayfield. Next to us, Phil Finucane who's the former CTO of Express Scripts as well as a variety of other roles. Went to Stanford, Stanford alum. >> Mm hmm. >> Good to see you, thanks for joining me for this interview. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> So, before we get into some of the specifics, talk about your career, you're a former CTO of Express Scripts >> Yep. >> What are some of the other journeys that you've had? Talk about your roles. >> Yeah, I've had sort of a varied career. I started off as just a computer coder for a contract coder in the mid-90s. I sort of stumbled into it, not because I had a computer science background, but because when you start coding, sort of for fun in Silicon Valley in the mid-90s, there are just lots of jobs and I was lucky to have great mentors along the way. In 2003, I joined Yahoo and came in as the lead engineer, sort of the ops guy and the build and release guy for the log in and registration team at Yahoo, so I learned how to, went from being just a coder to being somebody who know how to run and build big systems and manage them all around the world. That was in the day when everything was bare metal and I could go to a data center and actually look at my machine and say, "Wow, that one's mine," right? And you know, sort of progressed from there to being the architect by the time that I left for some of the big social initiatives at Yahoo. On my way out, the YOS, the initiative to try to build Facebook in I think 2007, 2008 to try to take them on. That didn't work out too well, but it was definitely a formative experience in my career. From there I went to Zynga, where I was the CTO for Farmville. Was really, really good at getting middle-aged women in the Midwest to come play our game, and you know, was there for >> And it was highly, >> About three years >> high growth, Farmville >> Huge growth >> Took off like a rocket ship. >> Yeah, you know, over the 10 quarters I worked on the game we had over a billion dollars in revenue and that was, you know, the Zynga IPO'd on the back of that, right? And we weren't the only game, but we were certainly >> That was one of the big games >> The big whale, us and poker were the two that really drove the value in Zynga at that point. After that, I went to American Express, where I worked in a division that sort of sat off on the side of American Express focusing on stored value products. I was the chief architect for that division. Stored value products and international currency exchange. So, you know, at one point, I was in charge of both a pre-paid platform and American Express's traveler's checks platform, believe it or not, a thing that still exists. Although it's not heavily used any more. And you know, finally, I went to Express Scripts, where I spent the last three years as the CTO for that org. >> It's interesting, you've got a very unique background, because you know, you've seen the web scale, talk about bare metal Yahoo days, I mean, I remember those days vividly, you know, dealing with database schemas, I mean certainly the scale of Yahoo front page, never mind the different services that they had, which by the way, silo-like, they had databases >> Very, oh totally >> So building a registration and identity system must've been like, really stitching together a core part of Yahoo, I mean, what a Herculean task that must've been. >> Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot, you know, we, it was my first experience in figuring out how to deal with security around the web. You know, we had, at the beginning, some vulnerabilities here and there, as time went on, our standards around interacting around the web got better and better. Obviously, Yahoo has run into trouble around that in subsequent years, but it was definitely a big learning experience, being involved in you know, the development of the OAuth 2.0 spec and all of that, I was sort of sitting there advising the folks who were, you know, in the middle of that, doing all the work. >> And that became such a standard as we know, tokens, dealing with tokens and SAS. Really drove a lot of the SAS mobile generation that did cloud, which becomes kind of that next generation so you had, you know Web 1.0, Web 2.0, then you had the cloud era, cloud 2.0, now they're goin' DevOps and apps. I want to get your thought, and you throw crypto in there just for fun, of dealing with blockchain and then token economics and new kinds of paradigms are coming online >> It's amazing how far we've come in those years, right? I mean I look at the database that was built inside of Yahoo and this predated me, you know, this was back to circa 1996, I think, but you know, big massively scalable databases that were needed just because the traditional relational database just wouldn't work at that scale, and Yahoo was one of the first to sort of discover that. And now you look at the database technologies that are out there today that take some of those core concepts and just extend them so much further and they're so much easier to access, to use, to run, operate, all of those things than back in the days of Yahoozle, UDB, and it's amazing just to see how far we've come. >> Phil, I want to get your thoughts, because you know, talking about Yahoo and just your experiences and even today, at that time it was like changing the airplane's engine at 35,000 feet, it's really difficult. A lot of corporate enterprises right nhow are having that same kind of feeling with digital, and digital transformation, I'd say it's a cliche, but it is true this impact, the role of data that's playing and the just for value creation but also cybersecurity could put a company out of business, so there's all kinds of looming things that are opportunities and challenges, that are sizable, huge tasks that was once regulated to the full stack developers and the full web scalers, now the lonely CIO with the anemic enterprise staff has to turn around on a dime. Staff up, build a stack, build commodity, scale out, this is pretty massive, and not a lot of people are talking about this. What's your view on this? Because this is super important. >> Yeah it is, and you know, so I had kind of a shock, moving from working my whole career here on Silicon Valley and then going to American Express, which you know, is very similar in a lot of ways to Express Scripts, and the sort of corporate mindset around, "What is technology?" There is this notion that everything is IT and here in the valley, IT is you know, internal networks and laptops and those sorts of things, the stuff that's required to make your enterprise run internally. Their IT is all of your infrastructure, right? And IT is a service organization, it's not the competitive advantage in your industry, right? And so both of the places that I've gone have had really forward-thinking leaders that have wanted to change the way that their enterprise operates around technology, and move away from IT but, to technology, to thinking about engineering as a core competency. And that's a huge change, not only for the CIO >> You're saying they did have that vision >> They had the vision, but they didn't know how to get there, so my charter coming in and you know, others who were on the teams around me, our charter was to come in and help build a real engineering organization as opposed to an IT org that's very vendor-oriented, you know, that's dependent on third parties to tell you the right thing or the wrong thing, you know that hires consultants to come in and help set up architecture standards, because we couldn't do that on our own, we're not the experts on this side. You know, that's sort of the mindset in many old school companies, right? That needs, that I think needs to change. This notion that software is eating the world is still not something that people have gotten their heads around in many companies, right? >> And data's washing out old business models, so if software's eating the world, data's the tsunami that's coming in and going to take out the beach and the people there. >> Right. And so it's like, all of these things, it's one thing for, you know, a forward-thinking CEO like Tim Wentworth at Express Scripts, who was responsible for bringing me and the group in, you know, those kinds of folks, it's one thing to know that you have to make that transition it's another thing to have a sense of what that means for an engineering team, and all the more for the rest of the organization to be able to get behind it. I mean, people you know, I don't know any number of business partners who've been used to, just sort of taking a spec, throwing it over the wall, and saying, "Come back to me in two years when you're done." That's not how effective organizations work around technology. >> Let's drill into that, because one of the things that's cultural, I mean I do some of the interviews of theCUBE, I talk to leaders all the time like yourself, the theme keeps coming back, it's culture, it's process, technology, all those things you talk about, but culture is the number one issue people point to, saying, "That's the reason why "something did or didn't happen." >> Correct. >> So, you talk about throwing it over the fence, that's waterfall, so you think about the old waterfall methodology, agile, well documented, but the mindset of product thinking is a really novel concept to corporate America Not to Silicon Valley, and entrepreneurs, they got to launch a product, not roll out SAP over two years, right, or something they used to be doing. So that's a cultural mindset shift. >> It's difficult for folks, even if they want to get on board to come along some of the time. One of the real big successes we had early on at Express Scripts was, you know, transitioning our teams to Agile wasn't difficult, what was difficult was getting business partners to sort of come along and be actively engaged in that product development mindset and lifecycle and all those sorts of things. And you know, we had one partner in particular, we were migrating from a really old, really clunky customer care application that you know had taken years and years to build, took on average, a new agent took six weeks to get trained on it because it was so complex and it's Oracle Forms and you know, every field in the database was a field on this thing, and there were green screens to do the stuff that you couldn't do in Oracle Forms, so and we wanted to rebuild the application. We tried to get them to come along and say, "Okay, we're going to do it in really small chunks," but business partners were like, "No, we can't afford "to have our agents swiveling between two applications." And so finally after we got our first sort of full-feature complete, we begged to go into a call center, you know with our business partners, and sit down with a few agents and just have them use it and see if it looked like it worked, if it did the right thing, and it was amazing seeing the business partner go, over the course of an hour, from "I can't be engaged in this, "I don't want an agent swiveling, "I don't want to be, you know, delivering partial applications "I want the whole thing." to, "Oh my god, it works way better, "the design is much nicer, the agents seem to like it," you know, "Here are the next things we should work on, "These are the things we got wrong." They immediately pivoted, and it wasn't, it was because they're the experts, they know how to run their business, they know what's important in their call centers, they know what their agents need, and they had just never seen the movie before, they just had no concept you could work that way. >> So this is actually interesting, 'cause what you're saying is, a new thing, foreign to the business partners, the tech team's on board, being Agile, building product, they have to, they can't just hear the feature benefits, they got to feel it. >> Yeah, they have to see it >> This seems to be the experience of success before they can move. Is that a success you think culturally, something that people have to be mindful of? >> It's absolutely something you have to be mindful of. And that was just the first step down the path. I mean, that team made a number of mistakes that folks here I think in the valley wouldn't normally make, you know. Over-committing and getting themselves into deep water by trying to get too much done and actually getting less accomplished in the process because of it and you know, the engagement around using data to actually figure out what's the next feature that we build. When you've got this enormous application to migrate, you should probably have some insight as to you know, feature by feature, what are you going to work on next? And that was a real challenge, 'cause there's a culture of expertise-driven, you know being subject-matter driven, expertise driven as opposed to being data driven about how do you >> Let's talk about data-driven. We had an interview earlier this morning with another luminary here at the Mayfield 50th conference celebration that they're having, and he said, "Data is the new feedback mechanism." and his point was, is that if you treat the Agile as an R&D exercise from a data standpoint. Not from a product but get it out there, get the data circulating in, it's critical in formulation of the next >> It is, yeah, it's absolutely critical. That was the eye opener for me going to Zynga. Zynga had an incredible, probably still does have, an incredible product culture that every single thing gets rolled out behind an experiment. And so you know, that's great from an operational perspective, because it allows you to, you know, move quickly and roll things out in small increments and when it doesn't work, you can just shut it off but it's not some huge catastrophe. But it's also critical because it allows you to see what's working and what's not and the flip side of that is, some humility of the people developing the products that their ideas are not going to work sometimes just because you know this domain well doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to be the expert on exactly how everything is going to play out. And so you have to have this ability to go out, try stuff, let it fail, use that, hopefully you fail quickly, you learn what's not working and use that to inform what's the next step down the path that you take, right? And Agile plays into it, but that's for me, that's the big transition that corporations really have to struggle with, and it's hard. >> You know you're, been there done that, seen multiple waves of innovation, want to bring up something to kind of get you going here. You see this classically in the old school 90s, 80s day. Product management, product people and sales people. They're always buttin' heads, you know? Product marketing, marketing people want this sales and marketing want this, product people buttin' heads, but now with Agile, the engineering focus has been the front lines. People are building engineering teams in house. They're building custom stacks for whatever reasons, the apps are getting smarter. The engineers are getting closer to the edge, the customer if you will. How do you help companies, or how do you advise companies to think about the relationship between a product-centric culture and a sales-centric culture? Because sometimes you have companies that are all about the customer-centric, customer-centric customer-centric, product-centric and sometimes if you try to put 'em together there's always going to be an alpha-beta kind of thing there and that's the balance in this. What's your take on this? Seems to be a cutting edge topic >> Yeah, well, so you know, one of the last big initiatives that I worked on at Express Scripts. Express Scripts has the, to my knowledge, the largest automated home delivery pharmacy in the world. It's amazing if you walk into one of our pharmacies where automation is packaging and filling prescriptions and packaging and shipping and doing all of that stuff. And we've built so much efficiency into the process that we've started getting slack in the system. Every year, you're trying to figure out how to make something work better and you know, have better automation around it. And so, you know, what do you do with all of that slack? The sales team can't sign up enough new customers for Express Scripts to actually fill that capacity. And so they create a division of commoditizing this, basically white labeling your pharmacy. We called it Pharmacy as a Platform, exposing APIs to third parties who might want to come along and hey, Phil's pharmacy can now fill branded prescriptions to get sent to you in your home, right? And so that's a fantastic vision, but there's a real struggle between engineering who had all these legacy stacks that we needed to figure out how to move to be able to really live up to this, you know the core of Express Scripts was our members and not somebody else's members. And so there's a lot of rewiring at the core that needs to be done. An operations team, a product team that's, you know, running these home delivery pharmacies, and a sales team that wants to go off and sell all over the place, right? And so, you know, early on, we started off and the sales team tried to sell, like six different deals that all required different parts of the vision, but you know, they weren't really, there was no real roadmap to figure out how do you get from where we're at to the end, and we could've done any of those things, but trying to do them all at once was going to be a trainwreck. And so, you know, we stubbed our toes a couple of times along the way, but I think it just came down to having a conversation and trying to be as transparent as possible on all sides, in all sides. To you know, try to get to a place where we could be effective in delivering on the vision. The vision was right. Everybody was doing all of the right things. But if you haven't actually, with so much of this stuff, if you haven't seen the movie, if you haven't worked this way before, there's nothing I can tell you that's going to make it work magically for you tomorrow. You have to just get this together and work in small increments to figure out how to get there. >> You got to go through spring training, you got to do the reps. >> Yep, absolutely. >> All right, so on your career, as you look at what you've done in your career, and what people outside are looking at right now, you got startups trying to compete and get a market position. You have other existing suppliers who could be the old guard, retooling and replatforming, refactoring, whatever the buzz word you want to use. And then the ultimate customer who wants to consume and have the ability of having custom personalization, data analytics, unlimited elastic capability with resources for their solution. How, what advice would you give to the startup, to the supplier, and to the customer to survive this next transition of cloud 2.0, you know and data tsunami, and all the opportunities that are coming? Because if they don't, they'll be challenged a startup goes out of business, a supplier gets displaced. >> Right, I mean, well, so the startup, I don't know if I have good advice for the startup. Startups in general have to find a market that actually works for them. And so, you know, I don't know that I've got some secret key that allows startups to be effective other than don't run out of money, try to figure out how to build effectively to get you to the point where you're, you know, where you're going to win. One of my earliest, one of the earliest jobs I had in my career, I came into a startup, and I tried, one of the founders had written the initial version of the code base. I, as a headstrong engineer, was convinced that he had done horrible work, and so I sort of holed up for like, six to eight weeks doing a hundred hours a week trying to rewrite the entire code base while getting nothing done for the startup. You know, in the end, that was the one job I've ever been fired from, and I should've been fired, because, you know, honestly as a startup, you shouldn't worry about perfection from an engineering perspective. You should figure out how to try to find your marketplace. Everybody has tech debt, you can fix that as time goes on, the startup needs to figure out how to be viable more than anything else. As far as suppliers go, you know, I don't know it's interesting the, you know, I sort of look at corporate America and there are many many companies that really rely heavily on their vendors to tell them how to do things. They don't trust in their own internal engineering ability. And then there are the ones, like the teams I have built at AmEx and Express Scripts that really do want to learn it all and be independent. I would say, identify when you walk into somebody's shop which they are and sell to them appropriately. You know, I've been a Splunk customer for a long time, I love Splunk. But the Splunk sales team early on at Express Scripts tried to come in and sell me on a whole bunch of stuff that Splunk was just not good at, right? >> And you knew that. >> And I knew that, because I've been a hands-on customer every since Zynga, right? I know what it's good at, and I love it as a tool, but you know, it's not the Swiss Army knife. It can't do everything. >> Well now you got Signal FX, so now you can get the observability you need. >> Exactly, right? So yeah, I, you know, I would say, you know, for those kinds of companies, it's important to go in and understand what your customer is, you know, what your customer is asking for and respond to them appropriately. And in some cases, they're going to need your expertise, either because they're building towards it or they haven't gotten there yet, and some cases, one of the things that I have done with teams of mine in the past, was it with AppDynamics at Express Scripts, excuse me at AmEx, five or six years ago, they were sold on, you know, bringing in AppDynamics as a monitoring tool, I actually made them not bring it in, because they didn't know what they didn't know. I made them go build some basic monitoring, you know, using some open source tools, just to get some background, and then, you know, once they did, we ended up bringing AppDynamics in, but doing it in a way that they were accretive to what we were trying to accomplish and not just this thing that was going to solve all of our problems. >> And so that brings up the whole off-the-shelf general purpose software model that you were referring to. The old model was lean on your vendors. They're supplying you, and because you don't have the staff to do it yourself. That's changing, do you think that's changing? >> It is, it's changing, but again, I think there's a lot of places where people nominally want to go there, but don't know how to get there, and so, you know, people are stubbing their toes left and right. If you're doing it with this mindset of, we're constantly getting better and we're learning and it's okay to make mistakes as long as we move forward, >> It's okay to stub your toe as long as you don't cut an artery open. >> Yeah, that's true, yeah exactly >> You don't want to bleed out, that's a cybersecurity hack >> That's true, that's true. But for me a lot of the time that just comes down to how long are you waiting before you stub your toe? If you're, you know, if you wait two years before you actually try to launch something, the odds of you cutting your leg off are much higher than >> Well I want to get into the failure thing, so I think stubbing your toe brings up this notion of risk management, learning what to try, what not to do, take experiments to try to your, which is a great example. Before you get there, you mentioned suppliers. One of the things we hear and I want to get your thoughts on, is that, a lot of CIOs and C-sos, and CBOs, or whatever title is the acronym, they're trying to reduce the number of suppliers. They don't want more tools, right? They don't necessarily want another tool for the tool's sake or they might want to replatform, what does that even mean? So, we're hearing in our interviews and our discussions with partitioners, "Hey, I want to get my suppliers down, "and by the way, I want to be API driven, "so I want to start getting to a mode "where I'm dictating the relationship to suppliers." How do you respond to that? Do you see that as aspirational, real dynamic, or fiction? >> It's a good goal to give motivation, I believe it. For me, I approach the problem a little differently. I'm a big believer, well, so, because I've seen this pattern of this next tool is going to be the one that consolidates three things and it's going to be the right answer and instead of eliminating three and getting down to one, you have four, because you're, you need to unwire this new thing, there's a lot of time and effort required to get rid of, you know, your old technology stack, and move to the new one, right? I've seen that especially coming from the C-Sec for Express Scripts is an amazing guy, and you know, was definitely trying to head down that path but we stubbed our toes, we ran into problems in trying to figure out, you know, how do you move from one set of networking gear to the next set? How do you deal with, you know, all of the virus protection and all the other, there's a huge variety of tools. >> So it's not just technical debt, it's disruption >> It's disruption to the existing stack, and you've got to move from old to new, so my philosophy has always been, with technical debt, when you're in debt, and I think technical debt really does operate in a lot of ways like real debt, right? Probably good to have some of it. If you're completely debt-free, that's I've never been in that place before. >> You're comfortable. You might not be moving, >> Exactly, right? But with that technical debt, you know, there's two ways to pay down your debt. You can scrimp and save and put more money into debt principal payments as opposed to spending on other new things, or, well and/or, build productive capacity. So a huge focus for me for the engineering teams that we've built, and this is not anything new to the folks in this area, but, you know, always think about an arms race, where you're getting 1% better every day. The aggregation of marginal gains and investing in internal improvements so that your team is doubling productivity every year, which is something that's really possible for, you know, some of these engineering organizations, is the way that you deal with that, right? If you get to the point where your team is really, really productive, they can go through and eliminate all the old legacy technology. >> That's actually great advice, and it's interesting, because a lot of people just get hung up on one thing. Operating something, and then growing something, and you can have different management styles and different techniques for both, the growth team, the operating team. You're kind of bringing in and saying, we can do both. Operate with growth in mind, to 1% better approach. >> Right, you know, and for me, it's been an interesting journey, you know. I started off as the engineer and then the architect, who was always focused on just the technology, the design of the system in production. Sort of learned from there that you had to be good at the you know, all the systems that get code from a developer's desktop into production, that's a whole interrelated system that's not isolated from your production system. And then from there, it has to be the engineering team that you build has to be effective as well. And so, I've moved from being very technology-centric to somebody who says, "Okay, I have to start "with getting the team right "and getting the culture right if we're ever going to "be able to get the technology to a good place." Mind you, I still love the technology. I'm still an architect at my core, but I've come to this realization that good technology and bad teams will get crushed by bad technologies and good teams. Because now I've seen that a couple of places, where you have old but evolving technology stacks that have gone from low availability and poor performance and low ability to get new features into production to a place where you're fixing all of that at a high rate. It starts with the team. >> You're bringing us some core Silicon Valley ethos to the IT conversation, because what you're talking about is "I'll fund an A team with a B plan any day "over a B team with an A plan." >> Right. >> And where this makes sense, I think is true, is that to your point about debt, A teams know how to manage it. >> Yeah. >> So this is kind of what you're getting at here. >> Right. >> You can take that same ethos, so it's the Agile enterprise. >> Yeah, it is >> That's what we're talking about. Okay, so hypothetical final point I want to chat with you about. Let's just say you and I were startin' a company. We're chief architects, you're the chief architect, I'm a coder, what are we doing? Do I code from horizontally scalable cloud, certainly cloud native, how would you think about building, we have an app in mind, all of our requirements defined, it's going to be data-centric, it's going to be game change and have community, it might have some crypto in there, who knows, but it's going to be fun. How do we scale this out to be really fast? How would you architect this? >> Yeah, well, you know, I do start in the cloud. I go to AWS or Azure or any of the offerings that are out there, and you know, leverage everything that they have that's already wired up already for you. I mean the thing that we've seen in the evolution of software and production systems over the last, well, forever, is you get more and more leverage every day, every year, right? And so, if you and I are startin' a new company, let's go use the tools that are there to do the things that we shouldn't be wasting our time on. Let's focus on the value for our company as much as we can. Don't over-architect. I think premature optimization is a thing that you know, I learned early on is a real problem. You should, you know >> Give an example, what that would look like. >> I've seen >> Database scale decisions done with no scale >> Correct, yeah, you know? You go off >> Let's pick this! It's the most scalable database, well we have no users yet. >> Right, you know you build the super complicated caching architecture or you know, you go design the most critical part of the system out of the gate, you know, using Assembly. You use C++ or, you use a low level language when a high level language with your three users would be just fine, right? You can get the work done in a fraction of the time. >> And get the business logic down, the IP, >> Solve the problem when it becomes a problem. Like, it's, you know, I've, any number of times, I've run into systems, I've built systems where you have some issue that you run into, and you have to go back and redesign some chunk of the system. In my experience, I'm really bad at predicting, and I think engineers are really bad at predicting what are going to be the problem areas until you run into them, so just go as simple as you can out of the gate, you know. Use as many tools as you can to solve problems that, you know, maybe as an engineer, I want to go rebuild every thing from scratch every time. I get the inclination. But it's >> It's a knee-jerk reaction to do that but you stay your course. Don't over-provision, overthink it, thus start taking steps toward the destination, the vision you want to go to, and get better, operate >> Solve the problem you have when it shows up. >> So growth mindset, execute, solve the problems when they're there. >> Right, and initially the problem that you have is finding a market, you know, not building the greatest platform in the world, right? >> Find a market, exactly. >> Right? >> Phil, thanks for taking the time >> Thank you very much, appreciate it. >> Appreciate the insights. Hey, we're here for the People First, Mayfield's 50th celebration, 50 years in business. It's a CUBE co-production, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching >> Thanks John. (outro music)

(electronic music) >> Welcome back to London everybody, this is Dave Vellante with theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. We're here with a special session in London, we've been following the career of Teresa Carlson around, we asked, "hey, can we come to London to your headquarters there and interview some of the leaders and some of the startups and innovators both in public sector and commercial?" Andy Isherwood is here, he's the managing director of AWS EMEA. Andy, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, thank you very much for your time. >> So you're about a year in, so that's plenty of time to get acclimated, what are your impressions of AWS and then we'll get into the market? >> Yeah, so it's nearly a year and a half actually, so time definitely goes pretty quickly. So I'd say it's pretty different, I'd say probably a couple of things kind of jump out at me. One is, I think we just have a startup mentality in everything we do. So, y'know, if you think about everything we do kind of works back from the customer and we really feel like a kind of startup at heart. And we always say, y'know, within the organization, we should also make it feel like day one. If we get to day two, y'know, the game's over. So we always try and make day one something that's kind of relevant in what we're doing. I think the second thing is customer obsession. I think we are truly customer obsessed. And you could say that most organizations actually say, y'know, they're customer obsessed. I'd say we're truly customer obsessed in everything we do so if you think about our re:Invent program, if you think about, y'know, London, the summit coming up, what you will notice is that there will be customers everywhere, speaking about their experiences and that's really important. So we start with the customer and we always work back. So super important that we never forget that and if you think about how we develop our services, they start with the customer. We don't go out like a product company would and make great products and sell them. We start with the customer, work back, develop the solutions and then let the customer use them, and we iterate on those developments. So I'd say it's pretty different in those two aspects. I'd say the other thing is, it's just hugely relevant. Every customer I go into, and I've seen hundreds of customers in the last year and a half, were hugely relevant. Y'know, we are at the heart of what people want to do and need to do, which makes it important. >> Yeah, so we've been following the career of Andy Jassy for years and we've learnt about the Working Backwards documents, certainly you guys are raising the bar all the time, is sort of the mantra, and yeah, customer centricity, you said it's different, y'know, we do over a hundred events every year and every company out there talks about, "we're focused on the customer", but what makes AWS different? >> I think it's the fact that we truly listen and work back from the customer. So, y'know, we're not a product company, we don't make products with great R&D people and then take them and sell them. We don't obsess about the competition, y'know, we start with the customer, we go and speak to the customer, I think we listen intently to what they need, and we help them look round corners. We help them think about what they need to do for them to be successful, then we work back and probably 90% of what we do is fundamentally developed from those insights that the customer gives us. That's quite different. That really is a working back methodology. >> We run most of our business on AWS and it's true, so I remember we were in a meeting with Andy Jassy one time and he started asking us how we use the platform and what we like about it and don't like about it, and my business partner, John Furrier, he's kind of our CTO, he starts rattling off a number of things that he wanted to see, and Andy pulls out his pad and he starts writing it down, and he was asking questions back and forth, so I think I've seen that in action. One of the things that we've observed is that the adoption of cloud in EMEA and worldwide is pretty consistent and ubiquitous, there's not like a big gap, y'know, you used to see years later, y'know, Europe would maybe adopt a technology and you're seeing actually in many cases, you certainly see it with mobile, you're seeing greater advancements. GDPR, obviously, is a template for privacy, what are you seeing in Europe in terms of some of the major trends of cloud adoption? >> Yeah, I don't think we're seeing major differences, y'know, people talk a lot about, "well, Europe must be two years behind North America" in terms of adoption. We don't see that, I think it is slightly slower in some countries, but I don't think that's kind of common across the piste. So I'd say that the adoption, and if you think back to some customers that were very early adopters, just from an overall global cloud perspective, companies like Shell, for example, y'know they were really early adopters, and those were European-based companies, you could say they're global companies, absolutely, but a lot of what they did was developed in Europe. So I would say that there are countries that are slower to adopt, sometimes driven by the fact that, y'know, security is an issue, or was an issue, that data sovereignty was a bigger issue for some of these countries. But I think all of those are pretty much passed now, so I think we are very quickly kind of catching up with regards to the North American market. So, yeah. >> You mentioned your sort of startup mentality, you mentioned BP. Is it divisions within a large company like that that are startup-like? Is that what you're seeing in terms of the trends? >> No, I'm seeing three patterns. So I'm seeing a pattern which is, y'know, large organizations that go all-in very quickly, typically, y'know, strong leadership, clear vision, need to move quickly. >> Dave Vellante: We're going cloud? >> Yeah, we're going cloud, and we're going all in and that may be, like an NL would be a great example. So NL's a really good example of a top-down approach, very progressive CIO, very clear-thinking CEO that's driven adoption. So I'd say that's pattern one. For me, pattern two is where large organizations create an entity alongside, so almost a separate business. So probably Openbank is probably a good example, part of Santander. And now that organization has about one and a half million customers, obviously started in Spain, but they built a digital bank, clearly tapping into all of the data and customer sets within Santander, but building an experience which is fundamentally different. >> So a skunkworks that really grew and grew? >> Correct, absolutely, a skunkworks that grew, but grew quickly and now it's becoming y'know, a key part of their business. And then the third area, or the third pattern for me is very much a kind of a bottoms-up-led approach. So this is where the developers basically love the services that we have, they use the services, they typically put them on their credit card or AMEX, and then they'll go and use the services and create real value. That value is then seen and it snowballs. So those are kind of the three patterns. I'd say the only outlier to those three patterns is a startup organization, and as you know we've been hugely successful with startups, from, y'know, Pinterest, to Uber, to Careem, to all of these organizations and those organizations it's really important to influence them early on, to make sure that they are aware, and the developer community and the founders are aware of what we can do and we have a number of programs to really help them do that. And they start to use our services, and as those organizations are successful then our business grows alongside them and they, y'know, typically start to use a lot more of the services. >> One of the defining patterns of three, the bottoms-up and four, the start-ups, is they code infrastructure. And, y'know, sometimes the one, the top-down may not have the skillsets and the disciplines and the structure to do that. What are you seeing in terms of that whole programmable infrastructure, the skillsets, programmers essentially coding the infrastructure? Are you seeing CIOs come in and say, "Okay, we need to re-skill", are they bringing in new staff, kind of like number two, the Openbank example might be, y'know, some rockstars that they wanna sort of assign to the skunkwork. How is the number one category dealing with that in terms of their digital transformation? >> Yeah, so y'know, skills is something that is critically important, having the right skills in the right place at the right time. And if you think about Europe it's a big outsourced market, so a lot of those skills were outsourced typically to a lot of the outsourcing companies, as you'd expect. What you're seeing now is organizations, BP's a good example of this, where they're building the innovation capability back into their organizations to make sure that they can create the offerings and create the user experience and create the business models for the new world. And what we're doing is really trying to make sure that we're enabling those organizations to build the skills. So probably at a number of different levels, kind of, y'know, very basic level, or at a very junior level we're kind of influencing people in schools. So, y'know, we're going to be announcing, or announcing at the summit, Guess IT, which is basically a program to train up year eight students. So you start there, and basically you go all the way through to offering training and certification, we have a very big function associated with that to make sure that we're building the right skills for organizations to be successful, and also then working with partners, so all of those training and certification skills, we are working with the partners like the Cloudreaches of this world, but also the DXCs of this world, the Accentures of this world, the Atoses of this world, really to make sure that they have the right skills and capability, not only around our services but around the movement to cloud which is what these organizations need to do to help them innovate. >> And it sounds like your customers wanna learn how to fish, they see that as IP, in a sense, still work with partners, but help them transfer that knowledge and then, y'know, continue to innovate, raise the bars, as we like to say. >> Yes, yes. >> One of the biggest challenges that we see, we talk to customers all the time, is the data challenge. Particularly companies that have been around for a while, they have a lot of technical debt, the data's locked into these hardened silos, obviously I'm sure you see that as a challenge, maybe can you address that, how you're helping customers deal with that challenge and some of the other things that you see cloud addressing? >> Yeah, so y'know, we're really trying to help customers be successful in doing what they do in the timescale that they're setting themselves, and we're helping them be successful. I think from a data point of view, we have a lot of capability, so just to give you a perspective, so since I've been here that year and a half, we started with 125 services. That number of services has gone to 170-odd services now and the innovation that we have within those services has now reached, I think last year, just over the 1900 level so this is iterations on the product. In addition to that, we are continually building new offerings, so if you think about our database strategy, y'know, it's very much to create databases that customers can use in the right way at the right time to do the right job and that's just not one database, it's a number of different databases tuned for specific needs. So we have 14 databases, for example, which are really geared to make customers use the right database at the right time to achieve the right outcome, and we think that's really important, so that's helping people basically use their data in a different way. Obviously our S3, our core storage offering is critically important and hugely successful. We think that as-is, the bedrock for how people think about their data and then they expand and use data lakes, and then underpinning that is making sure that they've got the right databases to support and use that data effectively. >> At the start of this millennium there was like a few databases, databases was a boring marketplace and now it's exploded, as Inova says, dozens a minute it's actually amazing >> Yep >> how much innovation there is occurring in that space. What's your vision for AWS in EMEA? >> Yeah, so you know the overall Amazon vision is to be the world's most customer-obsessed organization, so y'know, here in EMEA, that holds true, so y'know, we start with the customer, we work back, and we wanna make sure that every single customer's happy with what we're doing. I think the second thing is making sure that we are bringing and enabling customers to be innovative. This is really important to us, and it's really important to the customers that we sell to, y'know, there's many insurgents kind of attacking historic business models, it's really important that we give all of the organizations the ability to use technology, whether they're a small company or a big company. And we call that the democratization of IT, we're making things available that were only available to big companies a while back. Now, we have made those services available to pretty much every single company, whether you're a startup in garage, y'know, to a large global organization. So that's really important that we bring and we continue to democratize IT to make it available for the masses, so that they can go out there and innovate and do what ultimately, customers wanna do, y'know, customers want people to innovate. Customers want a different experience. And it's important that we give organizations the tools and the wherewithal to go and do that. >> Well you've been in the industry long enough, and you've worked at product companies prior to this part of your career, and you know the innovation engine used to be Moore's Law. It used to be how fast can I take advantage of that curve, and that's totally changed now. You see a number of things happening, it's get rid of the heavy lifting, so you can focus on your business, that's what cloud does for you, but it's kind of this combination, the cocktail of data, plus machine intelligence, and then the cloud brings scale, it attracts innovative companies. How do you see, first of all do you buy that sort of new cocktail, and how do you see customers applying that innovation engine? >> Yeah, y'know, to answer the first bit first, we definitely see that cocktail. So y'know, the kind of undifferentiated work that was historically done to kind of build servers and make sure that they ran and all of those things, people don't need to do that now. We do that really really effectively. So they can really focus their time, attention, their money, their efforts, their innovation, on creating new experiences, new products, new offerings, for their customers. And they should also work back from customers themselves and work out what's really required. Every single business model, every single offering, needs to be questioned, by every single organization and I think that's what we do. We give the ability to organizations to really think differently about how they use what we have to do the really important things, the things that differentiate them and the things that ultimately give customers a different experience. And that's why I think we've seen so many very successful companies, y'know, from Airbnb, to Pinterest, to Uber. It's giving people a fundamentally different experience and that's what people want, so y'know, we're here to I think give people the ability to create those different experiences. >> Kind of amazing when you go back and you remember the book Does IT Matter? the Havard Business Review famous... It couldn't have been more wrong, at the same time it couldn't have been more right because it really underscored that IT was broken and that preceded 2006 introduction of EC2 and now technology matters more than ever before, every company's a technology company, y'know, you hear Marc Bennioff talk about software's eating the world, it's so true, and so as companies become technology companies, what's your advice to them? I mean obviously you gotta say, "Let us handle the heavy lifting," but what do they have to do to succeed in their digital transformation in your view? >> Yeah, I think it's about changing the mindset and changing the culture of organizations. So I think you can try and instill new processes and new tools on an organization but fundamentally you've gotta change the culture and I think we have to create and enable cultures to be created that are innovative and that requires, I think, a very different mindset. That requires a mindset which is about, "we don't mind if you fail". Y'know, and we'll applaud failure. We in Amazon have had many failures but it's applauded, and if it's applauded, people try again so they'll dust themselves off and they'll move on. You can see this in Israel which is, y'know, very much a startup nation. You can see people start a business, they might fail. Next day, they start a new one. So I think it's having this culture of innovation that allows people to experiment. Experimentation's good, but it's also prone to failure. But, y'know, out of 10 experiments you're gonna get one that's successful. That one could be the make or break for your organization to move forward, and give customers what they actually need, so, y'know, super important. >> Break things, move fast, right? >> Exactly. >> I love it. All right, what should we expect tomorrow at the London summit? We gotta big crowd coming, it's at the ExCeL Center >> Yeah, I think you'll see us continue to innovate, I think you'll see a lot of people, and I think you'll see a lot of customers talk about their experience and share their experience, y'know, these are learning summits, y'know, they're not kind of show and tell, they're very much about explaining what other customers are doing, how people can use the innovation and you'll see lots of experiences from different customers that people will be able to take away and learn from and go back to their offices and do similar things, but probably in a different way. So, y'know there'll be lots of exciting announcements, as you saw from re:Invent, we continue to innovate at a fair clip, as I said, 1950-odd innovations, y'know, significant releases last year, so not surprisingly you'll see a few of those. >> These summits are like mini re:Invents, aren't they? And as you said, Andy, very customer-focused, customer-centric; a lot of customer content. So, Andy Isherwood, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, it was really great to have you. >> Great >> All right. >> Thank you >> You're welcome Keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. This is Dave Vellente, you're watching theCUBE.

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering Dell technologies world 2019 brought to you by Dell technologies and it's ecosystem partners welcome back everyone to day one of the cubes live coverage of Dell technologies world here in Sin City Las Vegas 15,000 attendees I'm your host Rebecca night along with my co-host Dave Volante we're joined by a Charlie Haney he is the senior vice president Dell technologies consulting services thanks so much for coming on the queue absolutely thanks for having me again so we were talking a little before the cameras rolling you have spent nearly your entire career at this company at first EMC then Daley MC now Dell technologies how how have you seen the landscape change and transform over the course of your career yeah it's it's crazy I mean think about just even as consumers what we've seen in the last 10 years I mean us thinking about my flight out you know I booked everything online Amex all my calendar and everything is managed by TripIt I check in with my United app I get here I take an uber I mean the entire experience is digital and we see that in our everyday lives and today with technology I mean all of our customers are looking to figure out how do they apply these emerging technologies to their business so that they can open up new revenue streams or create new business opportunities to really win inside their industry and so I think it's just an exciting time and I couldn't be happier to be here at Dell technologies because I feel like we're at the center of all of itself so you mentioned all these exciting new technologies AI IOT this in the end this is all part of this digital transformation how would you describe how your clients are thinking about all of this but sort of what what are their pain points what is keeping them up at night you know I mean not all customers are the same as you could imagine we have some that are just starting and some that feel like they're well on their way but it seems like as as they go down their path they learn that there is still a lot to go I would say many of them are excited about the emerging technologies but they're still puzzled with how to actually apply it in their business and things like multi-cloud you know while it has a great promise they're also you know a little bit betwixt with how to actually manage and run this multi cloud environment so the new solutions like dell technologies cloud and the promise to actually manage that and provide a single cloud playing across hybrid environments on prem off prem you know these are ways that as a technology company we're able to help customers start to stitch these technologies together in a more seamless way to help enable what they're trying to do inside their business so certainly the narrative you hear in the press and no question comes from a lot of the technology companies is you've gotta transform digitally your gut your if not you're gonna get disrupted most organizations you talk to have some kind of digital transformation strategy going on but the reality is there are a number of industries that really haven't encountered disruption Financial Services is a good example the defense industry health care it's probably ripe for destructive disruption but but hasn't yet but we certainly all believe it's coming and we all believe it underlying that trend is data yet I wonder what that discussion is like with customers is there a keen sense that they've got to do something or is it really mixed is there a complacency in some industries and what role do you guys play and sort of helping them squint through that yeah I mean we certainly find that customers that are trying to transform are looking at how do they take the data that oftentimes they already have and figure out how to actually consolidate it and get it into a well-run data platform first so that then they can do analytics and they can actually get the business insights out of it to actually go do something on the Digital side and so oftentimes you know as an infrastructure company right we're helping them build the digital infrastructure for their data platform to enable their digital transformation initiatives at the same time we're helping on the IT side to actually drive out the cost of their IT to go capture the dollars to go enable and fund a lot of those digital transformation initiatives - so there's kind of the data play and then there's obviously the infrastructure play that enables in Hansa when we first started doing the Cubist is our tenth year and and back then if you talked about eliminating you know mundane infrastructure management tasks a lot of people would tighten up ago that's my job you're talking about today people are sort of embracing that because they realize this is the there's there's a brighter future ahead so maybe talk about that skills gap what role you guys play in closing that gap is it just purely sort of they outsource that and you teaching them how to fish yeah it really varies and I would agree with you I mean years ago people were afraid of what might happen to them and today right with the stats most of our organizations that we talked to already leveraged five or more clouds right whether it's an on-prem or an off Prem cloud or a SAS based application and so it's no longer afraid it's like it's reality it's happening and so for us we're helping them figure out how to stitch those things together now our consulting services we can either help them build the upfront strategy to actually build a roadmap and a plan of where they should go and how they should get there as well as those iterations of actually executing and implementing whether that is an IT transformation or a digital transformation plan oftentimes by us helping them build we're actually enabling and helping them establish also an operating model of what is the people and process now that I need within the organization to actually start to deliver something like IT as a service it's extremely different and so then you know obviously there's projects that we do jointly with organizations and customers and they learn as we go and then obviously we have educational services if they want something that's more formal on that side so here's talking about people process technology and and practitioners to tell you people and to in process of the hardest technologies the easiest part you'll always hear that yeah having said that technology catalyzes these change whether it's AI 5g you know IOT so what are some of the catalysts that you're seeing today and what kind of services are you guys providing I mean think again just think about the cloud platform that was announced earlier today I mean for years to be honest we've been building on-premise private clouds and doing manual integration with public all right we've been creating a vision of a service catalog that actually spans multiple on-prem off Prem but not fully integrated now we have an entire cloud plane that actually enables what you just said so the technology is starting to catch up to what we want to consume which is I see as a service on Prem or off Prem but again that will change those roles with NIT you're not going to have silo-based roles around server storage networking you're going to have cloud operators that are stretching not just on Prem but off Prem technologies could be as your Google AWS whatever right and so those roles are drastically different and how do we enable technology across those and so as a consulting organization we're helping define those roles as well as enable them and then build the platforms that ultimately deliver that service so I want to ask you about innovation because we learned that Dell is turning 35 next week that's sort of the start of middle age where's that you get a little slower and get a little creepier how do you stay on the cutting edge and how do you make sure that you are thinking four steps ahead of your customers and and what they will need next you know it's amazing I mean obviously as an organization we're investing 12 billion dollars or more of R&D over the course of the last three years I mean the innovation and the funding for innovation is just continuing to pour the synergies of bringing organizations like VMware and L EMC infrastructure together or pivotal or secure works I mean it's the right blend and mixture of software and infrastructure that allows us to integrate and by integrating we can then innovate and so I honestly think many times our customers are telling us what they need and as long as we continue to be good listeners and we are delivering on what our customers are needing with the technology investments we're making we'll continue to innovate so you guys announced some had some announcements today around multi-cloud the VMware cloud on gel EMC I want to ask you a question Charlie and then tie into that announcement is multi cloud sort of a symptom of multi vendor and line of business and shadow IT or is it increasingly becoming a strategy and if so how do you see that strategy evolving well you know I would say for the organization that hasn't built the right plan and strategy and is getting reactive you know it's really a reactive kind of plan they're seeing all these clouds just kind of pop up and they're not integrated so they're isolation of technologies in different locations for those organizations that are building a strategy to figure out how to best leverage those technologies it's completely different right and by doing that we're able to go look at applications and do proactive cloud suitability studies and make sure that they're putting applications in the right locations to get the right benefits and cost advantage that they need and that's a very different thing than IT waiting for the business to go invest in some SAS model so there's a hut there have to be a top-down edict for the latter vision to be realized in other words if the corner office isn't saying hey without pay attention to IT when they say this is our multi cloud strategy or can it actually happen from a grassroots level you know I don't want to say it can't happen perhaps it could I can tell you the customers that we've engaged with that are having the most success absolutely it's starting at the board level right I mean it's it is a top-down support and focus for the organization I mean there's going to be people challenges as we've talked about technology challenges financial challenges it's gonna take senior level people to actually knock those things down when we do advisory services like this broken saw advisory where we help customers build a strategy one of the number-one barriers that we're knocking down is internal conflict we bring people within the organization together with our subject matter expertise who have done this before and oftentimes we can't get the organization itself to agree on what is the vision and the guiding principles of this multi-cloud strategy and so that is oftentimes the challenged and can't be done ground up oftentimes it does require a strong leadership team to actually support it fund it and then help remove those roles typical starting point for you guys you'll go get an executive sponsor and then you'll organize the team and then you know that's always the cleanest but again as we just talked about customers are you know in various places along that journey so for us it's important to figure out where they are meet them where they are if they're halfway down that maybe it's just a course correction maybe it's something where they're struggling with and we just need to help them with a particular area of it so you know we have customers all along that journey and our goal is just to help them get to the end of that regardless of where we start well Charlie thank you so much for coming on the cube this was a great conversation absolutely thanks for having me I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Volante we will have much more from day one of the cubes live coverage from Dell technologies world here in Las Vegas coming up in just a little bit [Music]