>>Welcome back to NYC the Cube's coverage of Mongo DB 2022, a few thousand people here at least bigger than many people, perhaps expected, and a lot of buzz going on and we're gonna talk devs. I'm really excited to welcome back. Robbie Bellson who's the developer relations lead at Verizon and Ian Massingham. Who's the vice president of developer relations at Mongo DB Jens. Good to see you. Great >>To be here. >>Thanks having you. So Robbie, we just met a few weeks ago at the, the red hat summit in Boston and was blown away by what Verizon is doing in, in developer land. And of course, Ian, you know, Mongo it's rayon Detra is, is developers start there? Why is Mongo so developer friendly from your perspective? >>Well, it's been the ethos of MongoDB since day one. You know, back when we launched the first version of MongoDB back in 2009, we've always been about making developers lives easier. And then in 2016, we announced and released MongoDB Atlas, which is our cloud managed service for MongoDB, you know, starting with a small number of regions built on top of AWS and about 2,500 adoption events per week for MongoDB Atlas. After the first year today, MongoDB Atlas provides a managed service for MongoDB developers around the world. We're present in almost a hundred cloud regions across S DCP and Azure. And that adoption number is now running at about 25,000 developers a week. So, you know, the proof are in proof is really in the metrics. MongoDB is an incredibly popular platform for developers that wanna build data-centric applications. You just can't argue with the metrics really, >>You know, Ravi, sometimes there's an analyst who come up with these theories and one of the theories I've been spouting for a long time is that developers are gonna win the edge. And now to, to see you at Verizon building out this developer community was really exciting to me. So explain how you got this started with this journey. >>Absolutely. As you think about Verizon 5g edge or mobile edge computing portfolio, we knew from the start that developers would play a central role and not only consuming the service, but shaping the roadmap for what it means to build a 5g future. And so we started this journey back in late 20, 19 and fast forward to about a year ago with Mongo, we realized, well, wait a minute, you look at the core service offerings available at the edge. We didn't know really what to do with data. We wanted to figure it out. We wanted the vote of confidence from developers. So there I was in an apartment in Colorado racing, your open source Mongo against that in the region edge versus region, what would you see? And we saw tremendous performance improvements. It was so much faster. It's more than 40% faster for thousands and thousands of rights. And we said, well, wait a minute. There's something here. So what often starts is an organic developer, led intuition or hypothesis can really expand to a much broader go to market motion that really brings in the enterprise. And that's been our strategy from day one. Well, >>It's interesting. You talk about the performance. I, I just got off of a session talking about benchmarks in the financial services industry, you know, amazing numbers. And that's one of the hallmarks of, of Mongo is it can play in a lot of different places. So you guys both have developer relations in your title. Is that how you met some formal developer relations? >>We were a >>Program. >>Yeah, I would say that Verizon is one of the few customers that we also collaborate with on a developer relations effort. You know, it's in our mutual best interest to try to drive MongoDB consumption amongst developers using Verizon's 5g edge network and their platform. So of course we work together to help, to increase awareness of MongoDB amongst mobile developers that want to use that kind of technology. >>But so what's your story on this? >>I mean, as I, as I mentioned, everything starts with an organic developer discovery. It all started. I just cold messaged a developer advocate on Twitter and here we are at MongoDB world. It's amazing how things turn out. But one of the things that's really resonated with me as I was speaking with one of, one of your leads within your organization, they were mentioning that as Mongo DVIA developed over the years, the mantra really became, we wanna make software development easy. Yep. And that really stuck with me because from a network perspective, we wanna make networking easy. Developers are not gonna care about the internals of 5g network. In fact, they want us to abstract away those complexities so that they can focus on building their apps. So what better co-innovation opportunity than taking MongoDB, making software easy, and we make the network easy. >>So how do you think about the edge? How does you know variety? I mean, to me, you know, there's a lot of edge use cases, you know, think about the home Depot or lows. Okay, great. I can put like a little mini data center in there. That's cool. That's that's edge. Like, but when I think of Verizon, I mean, you got cell towers, you've got the far edge. How do you think about edge Robbie? >>Well, the edge is a, I believe a very ambiguous term by design. The edge is the device, the mobile device, an IOT device, right? It could be the radio towers that you mentioned. It could be in the Metro edge. The CDN, no one edge is better than the other. They're all just serving different use cases. So when we talk about the edge, we're focused on the mobile edge, which we believe is most conducive to B2B applications, a fleet of IOT devices that you can control a manufacturing plant, a fleet of ground and aerial robotics. And in doing so you can create a powerful compute mesh where you could have a private network and private mobile edge computing by way of say an AWS outpost and then public mobile edge computing by way of AWS wavelength. And why keep them separate. You could have a single compute mesh even with MongoDB. And this is something that we've been exploring. You can extend Atlas, take a cluster, leave it in the region and then use realm the mobile portfolio and spread it all across the edge. So you're creating that unified compute and data mesh together. >>So you're describing what we've been expecting is a new architecture emerging, and that's gonna probably bring new economics of new use cases, right? Where are we today in that first of all, is that a reasonable premise that this is a sort of a new architecture that's being built out and where are we in that build out? How, how do you think about the, the future of >>That? Absolutely. It's definitely early days. I think we're still trying to figure it out, but the architecture is definitely changing the idea to rip out a mobile device that was initially built and envisioned for the device and only for the device and say, well, wait a minute. Why can't it live at the edge? And ultimately become multi-tenant if that's the data volume that may be produced to each of those edge zones with hypothesis that was validated by developers that we continue to build out, but we recognize that we can't, we can't get that static. We gotta keep evolving. So one of our newest ideas as we think about, well, wait a minute, how can Mongo play in the 5g future? We started to get really clever with our 5g network APIs. And I, I think we talked about this briefly last time, 5g, programmability and network APIs have been talked about for a while, but developers haven't had a chance to really use them and our edge discovery service answering the question in this case of which database is the closest database, doesn't have to be invoked by the device anymore. You can take a thin client model and invoke it from the cloud using Atlas functions. So we're constantly permuting across the entire portfolio edge or otherwise for what it means to build at the edge. We've seen such tremendous results. >>So how does Mongo think about the edge and, and, and playing, you know, we've been wondering, okay, which database is actually gonna be positioned best for the edge? >>Well, I think if you've got an ultra low latency access network using data technology, that adds latency is probably not a great idea. So MongoDB since the very formative years of the company and product has been built with performance and scalability in mind, including things like in memory storage for the storage engine that we run as well. So really trying to match the performance characteristics of the data infrastructure with the evolution in the mobile network, I think is really fundamentally important. And that first principles build of MongoDB with performance and scalability in mind is actually really important here. >>So was that a lighter weight instance of, of Mongo or not >>Necessarily? No, not necessarily. No, no, not necessarily. We do have edge cashing with realm, the mobile databases Robbie's already mentioned, but the core database is designed from day one with those performance and scalability characteristics in mind, >>I've been playing around with this. This is kind of a, I get a lot of heat for this term, but super cloud. So super cloud, you might have data on Preem. You might have data in various clouds. You're gonna have data out at the edge. And, and you've got an abstraction that allows a developer to, to, to tap services without necessarily if, if he or she wants to go deep into the S great, but then there's a higher level of services that they can actually build for their customers. So is that a technical reality from a developer standpoint, in your view, >>We support that with the Mongo DB multi-cloud deployment model. So you can place Mongo DB, Atlas nodes in any one of the three hyperscalers that we mentioned, AWS, GCP or Azure, and you can distribute your data across nodes within a cluster that is spread across different cloud providers. So that kinds of an kind of answers the question about how you do data placement inside the MongoDB clustered environment that you run across the different providers. And then for the abstraction layer. When you say that I hear, you know, drivers ODMs the other intermediary software components that we provide to make developers more productive in manipulating data in MongoDB. This is one of the most interesting things about the technology. We're not forcing developers to learn a different dialect or language in order to interact with MongoDB. We meet them where they are by providing idiomatic interfaces to MongoDB in JavaScript in C sharp, in Python, in rust, in that in fact in 12 different pro programming languages that we support as a first party plus additional community contributed programming languages that the community have created drivers for ODMs for. So there's really that model that you've described in hypothesis exist in reality, using >>Those different Compli. It's not just a series of siloed instances in, >>In different it's the, it's the fabric essentially. Yeah. >>What, what does the Verizon developer look like? Where does that individual come from? We talked about this a little bit a few weeks ago, but I wonder if you could describe it. >>Absolutely. My view is that the Verizon or just mobile edge ecosystem in general for developers are present at this very conference. They're everywhere. They're building apps. And as Ian mentioned, those idiomatic interfaces, we need to take our network APIs, take the infrastructure that's being exposed and make sure that it's leveraging languages, frameworks, automation, tools, the likes of Terraform and beyond. We wanna meet developers where they are and build tools that are easy for them to use. And so you had talked about the super cloud. I often call it the cloud continuum. So we, we took it P abstraction by abstraction. We started with, will it work in one edge? Will it work in multiple edges, public and private? Will it work in all of the edges for a given region, public or private, will it work in multiple regions? Could it work in multi clouds? We've taken it piece by piece by piece and in doing so abstracting way, the complexity of the network, meaning developers, where they are providing those idiomatic interfaces to interact with our API. So think the edge discovery, but not in a silo within Atlas functions. So the way that we're able to converge portfolios, using tools that dev developers already use know and love just makes it that much easier. Do, >>Do you feel like I like the cloud continuum cause that's really what it is. The super cloud does the security model, how does the security model evolve with that? >>At least in the context of the mobile edge, the attack surface is a lot smaller because it's only for mobile traffic not to say that there couldn't be various configuration and human error that could be entertained by a given application experience, but it is a much more secure and also reliable environment from a failure domain perspective, there's more edge zones. So it's less conducive to a regionwide failure because there's so many more availability zones. And that goes hand in hand with security. Mm. >>Thoughts on security from your perspective, I mean, you added, you've made some announcements this week, the, the, the encryption component that you guys announced. >>Yeah. We, we issued a press release this morning about a capability called queryable encryption, which actually as we record this Mark Porter, our CTO is talking about in his keynote, and this is really the next generation of security for data stored within databases. So the trade off within field level encryption within databases has always been very hard, very, very rigid. Either you have keys stored within your database, which means that your memory, so your data is decrypted while it's resident in memory on your database engine. This allow, of course, allows you to perform query operations on that data. Or you have keys that are managed and stored in the client, which means the data is permanently OBS from the engine. And therefore you can't offload query capabilities to your data platform. You've gotta do everything in the client. So if you want 10 records, but you've got a million encrypted records, you have to pull a million encrypted records to the client, decrypt them all and see performance hit in there. Big performance hit what we've got with queryable encryption, which we announced today is the ability to keep data encrypted in memory in the engine, in the database, in the data platform, issue queries from the client, but use a technology called structural encryption to allow the database engine, to make decisions, operate queries, and find data without ever being able to see it without it ever being decrypted in the memory of the engine. So it's groundbreaking technology based on research in the field of structured encryption with a first commercial database provided to bring this to market. >>So how does the mobile edge developer think about that? I mean, you hear a lot about shifting left and not bolting on security. I mean, is this, is this an example of that? >>It certainly could be, but I think the mobile edge developer still stuck with how does this stuff even work? And I think we need to, we need to be mindful of that as we build out learning journeys. So one of my favorite moments with Mongo was an immersion day. We had hosted earlier last year where we, our, from an enterprise perspective, we're focused on BW BS, but there's nothing stopping us. You're building a B2C app based on the theme of the winner Olympics. At the time, you could take a picture of Sean White or of Nathan Chen and see that it was in fact that athlete and then overlaid on that web app was the number of medals they accrued with the little trumpeteer congratulating you for selecting that athlete. So I think it's important to build trust and drive education with developers with a more simple experience and then rapidly evolve overlaying the features that Ian just mentioned over time. >>I think one of the keys with cryptography is back to the familiar messaging for the cloud offloading heavy lifting. You actually need to make it difficult to impossible for developers to get this wrong, and you wanna make it as easy as possible for developers to deal with cryptography. And that of course is what we're trying to do with our driver technology combined with structure encryption, with query encryption. >>But Robbie, your point is lots of opportunity for education. I mean, I have to say the developers that I work with, it's, I'm, I'm in awe of how they solve problems and I, and the way they solve problems, if they don't know the answer, they figure out how to go get it. So how, how are your two communities and other communities, you know, how are they coming together to, to solve such problems and share whether it's best practices or how do I do this? >>Well, I'm not gonna lie in person. Events are a bunch of fun. And one of the easiest domain knowledge exchange opportunities, when you're all in person, you can ideate, you can whiteboard, you can brainstorm. And often those conversations are what leads to that infrastructure module that an immersion day features. And it's just amazing what in person events can do, but community groups of interest, whether it's a Twitch stream, whether it's a particular code sample, we rely heavily on digital means today to upscale the developer community, but also build on by, by means of a simple port request, introduce new features that maybe you weren't even thinking of before. >>Yeah. You know, that's a really important point because when you meet people face to face, you build a connection. And so if you ask a question, you're more likely perhaps to get an answer, or if one doesn't exist in a, in a search, you know, you, oh, Hey, we met at the, at the conference and let's collaborate on this guys. Congratulations on, on this brave new world. You're in a really interesting spot. You know, developers, developers, developers, as Steve bomber says screamed. And I was glad to see Dave was not screaming and jumping up and down on the stage like that, but, but the message still resonates. So thank you, definitely appreciate. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave ante for the cubes coverage of Mago DB world 2022 from New York city. We'll be right back.

>> Welcome back to the Seaport in Boston and this is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Paul Gillin. Rob Belson is here as the Developer Relations Lead at Verizon. Robbie great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> So Verizon and developer relations. Talk about your role there. Really interesting. >> Absolutely. If you think about our mobile edge computing portfolio in Verizon 5G Edge, suddenly the developer is a more important persona than ever for actually adopting the cloud itself and adopting the mobile edge. So the question then quickly became how do we go after developers and how do we tell stories that ultimately resonate with them? And so my role has been spearheading our developer relations and experience efforts, which is all about meeting developers in the channels where they actually are, building content that resonates with them. Building out architectures that showcase how do you actually use the technology in the wild? And then ultimately creating automation assets that make their lives easier in deploying to the mobile edge. >> So, you know, telcos get a bad rap, when you're thinking it's amazing what you guys do. You put out all this capital infrastructure, big outlays. You know, we use our phones to drop a call. People like, "Ah, freaking Verizon." But it's amazing what we can actually do too. You think about the pandemic, the shift that the telcos had to go through to landlines to support home, never missed a beat. And yet at the same time you're providing all this infrastructure for people to come over the top, the cost forbid is going down, right? Your cost are going up and yet now we're doing this big 5G buildup. So I feel like there's a renaissance about to occur in edge computing that the telcos are going to lead new forms of monetization new value that you're going to be able to add, new services, new applications. The future's got to be exciting for you guys and it's going to be developer-led, isn't it? >> Absolutely. I mean it's been such an exciting time to be a part of our mobile edge computing portfolio. If you think back to late 2019 we were really asking the question with the advent of high speed 5G mobile networks, how can you drive more immersive experiences from the cloud in a cloud native way without compromising on the tools you know and love? And that's ultimately what caused us to really work with the likes of AWS and others to think about what does a mobile edge computing portfolio look like? So we started with 5G Edge with AWS Wavelength. So taking the compute and storage services you know and love in AWS and bringing it to the edge of our 4G and 5G networks. But then we start to think, well, wait a minute. Why stop at public networks? Let's think about private networks. How can we bring the cloud and private networks together? So you turn back to late 2021 we announced Verizon 5G Edge with AWS Outposts but we didn't even stop there. We said, "Well, interest's cool, but what about network APIs? We've been talking about the ability and the programmability of the 5G network but what does that actually look like to the developers? And one great example is our Edge Discovery Service. So you think about the proliferation of the edge 17 Wavelength Zones today in the US. Well, what edge is the right edge? You think about maybe the airline industry if the closest exit might be behind you absolutely applies to service discovery. So we've built an API that helps answer that seemingly basic question but is the fundamental building block for everything to workload orchestration, workload distribution. A basic network building block has become so important to some of these new sources of revenue streams, as we mentioned, but also the ability to disintermediate that purpose built hardware. You think about the future of autonomous mobile robots either ground and aerial robotics. Well, you want to make those devices as cheap as possible but you don't want to compromise on performance. And that mobile edge layer is going to become so critical for that connectivity, but also the compute itself. >> So I just kind of gave my little narrative up front about telco, but that purpose built hardware that you're talking about is exceedingly reliable. I mean, it's hardened, it's fossilized and so now as you just disaggregate that and go to a more programmable infrastructure, how are you able to and what gives you confidence that you're going to be able to maintain that reliability that I joke about? Oh, but it's so reliable. The network has amazing reliability. How are you able to maintain that? Is that just the pace of technology is now caught up, I wonder if you can explain that? >> I think it's really cool as I see reliability and sort of geo distribution as inextricably linked. So in a world where to get that best in class latency you needed to go to one place and one place only. Well, now you're creating some form of single source of failure whether it's the power, whether it's the compute itself, whether it's the networking, but with a more geo distributed footprint, particularly in the mobile edge more choices for where to deliver that immersive experience you're naturally driving an increase in reliability. But again, infra alone it's not going to do the job. You need the network APIs. So it's the convergence of the cloud and network and infra and the automation behind it that's been incredibly powerful. And as a great example, the work we've been doing in hybrid MEC the ability to converge within one single architecture, the private network, the public network, the AWS Outposts, the AWS Wavelength all in one has been such a fantastic journey and Red Hat has been a really important part in that journey. >> From the perspective of the developer when they're building a full cloud to edge application, where does Verizon pick up? Where do they start working primarily with you versus with their cloud provider? >> Absolutely. And I think you touched on a really important point. I think when you often think about the edge it's thought of as an either, or. Is it the edge? Is it the cloud? Is it both? It's an and I can't emphasize that enough. What we've seen from the customers greenfield or otherwise it's about extending an application or services that were never intended to live at the edge, to the edge itself, to deliver a more performant experience. And for certain control plane operations, metadata, backend operations analytics that can absolutely stay in the cloud itself. And so our role is to be a trusted partner in some of our enterprise customers' journeys. Of course, they can lean on the cloud provider in select cases, but we're an absolutely critical mode of support as you think about what are those architectures? How do you integrate the network APIs? And through our developer relations efforts, we've put a major role in helping to shape what those patterns really look like in the wild. >> When they're developing for 5G I mean, the availability of 5G of particularly you know, the high bandwidth 5G is pretty spotty right now. Mostly urban areas. How should they be thinking in the future developing an application roll out two years from now about where 5G will be at that point? >> Absolutely. I think one of the most important things in this case is the interoperability of our edge computing portfolio with both 4G and 5G. Whenever somebody asks me about the performance of 5G they ask how fast? Or for edge computing. It's always about benchmark. It's not an absolute value. It's always about benchmarking the performance to that next best alternative. What were you going to get if you didn't have edge computing in your back pocket? And so along that line of thought having the option to go either through 4G or 5G, having a mobile edge computing portfolio that works for both modes of connectivity even CAN-AM IoT is incredibly powerful. >> So it sounds like 4G is going to be with us for quite a while still? >> And I think it's an important part of the architecture. >> Yeah. >> Robert, tell us about the developer that's building these applications. Where does that individual come from? What's their persona? >> Oh, boy I think there's a number of different personas and flavors. I've seen everything from the startup in the back of a garage working hard to try to figure out what could I do for a next generation media and entertainment experience but also large enterprises. And I think a great area where we saw this was our 5G Edge Computing Challenge that we hosted last year. Believe it or not 100 submissions from over 22 countries, all building on Verizon 5G Edge. It was so exciting to see because so many different use cases across public safety, healthcare, media and entertainment. And what we found was that education is so important. A lot of developers have great ideas but if you don't understand the fundamentals of the infrastructure you get bogged down in networking and setting up your environment. And that's why we think that developer education is so important. We want to make it easy and in fact, the 5G Edge portfolio was designed in such a way that we'll abstract the complexities of the network away so you can focus on building your application and that's such a central theme and focus for how we approach the development. >> So what kind of services are you exposing via APIs? >> Absolutely, so first and foremost, as you think about 5G Edge with say AWS Wavelength, the infra there are APIs that are exposed by AWS to launch your infra, to patch your infrastructure, to automate your infrastructure. Specifically that Verizon has developed that's our network APIs. And a great example is our Edge Discovery Service. So think of this as like a service registry you've launched an application in all 17 edge zones. You would take that information, you would send it via API to the Edge Discovery Service so that for any mobile client say, you wake up one morning in Boston, you can ask the API or query, "Hey, what's the closest edge zone?" DNS isn't going to be able to figure it out. You need knowledge of the actual topology of the mobile network itself. So the API will answer. Let's say you take a little road trip 1,000 miles south to say Miami, Florida you ask that question again. It could change. So that's the workflow and how you would use the network API today. >> How'd you get into this? You're an engineer it's obvious how'd you stumble into this role? >> Well, yeah, I have a background in networks and distributed systems so I always knew I wanted to stay in the cloud somewhere. And there was a really unique opportunity at Verizon as the portfolio was being developed to really think about what this developer community looked like. And we built this all from scratch. If you look at say our Verizon 5G Edge Blog we launched it just along the timing of the actual GA of Wavelength. You look at our developer newsletter also around the time of the launch of Wavelength. So we've done a lot in such a short period and it's all been sort of organic, interacting with developers, working backwards from the customer. And so it's been a fairly new, but incredibly exciting journey. >> How will your data, architecture, data flow what will that look like in the future? How will that be different than it is sort of historically? >> When I think about customer workloads real time data architecture is an incredibly difficult thing to do. When you overlay the edge, admittedly, it gets more complicated. More places that produce the data, more places that consume data. How do you reconcile all of these environments? Maintain consistency? This is absolutely something we've been working on with the ecosystem at large. We're not going to solve this alone. We've looked at architecture patterns that we think are successful. And some of the things that we found that we believe are pretty cool this idea of taking that embedded mobile database, virtualizing it to the edge, even making it multi-tenant. And then you're producing data to one single source and simplifying how you organize and share data because all of the data being produced to that one location will be relevant to that topology. So Boston, as an example, Boston data being produced to that edge zone will only service Boston clients. So having a geo distributed footprint really does help data architectures, but at the core of all of this database, architectures, you need a compute environment that actually makes sense. That's performant, that's reliable. That's easy to use that you understand how to manage and that the edge doesn't make it any more difficult to manage. >> So are you building that? >> That's exactly what we're doing. So here at Red Hat Summit we've had the unique opportunity to continue to collaborate with our partners at Red Hat to think about how you actually use OpenShift in the context of hybrid MEC. So what have done is we've used OpenShift as is to extend what already exists to some of these new edge zones without adding in an additional layer of complexity that was unmanageable. >> So you use OpenShift so you don't have to cobble this together on your own as a full development environment and that's the role really that OpenShift plays here? >> That's exactly right. And we presented pieces of this at our re:Invent this past year and what we basically did is we said the edge needs to be inextricably linked with the cloud. And you want to be able to manage it from some seamless central pane of glass and using that OpenShift console is a great way. So what we did is we wanted to show a really geo-distributed footprint in action. We started with a Wavelength zone in Boston, the region in Northern Virginia, an outpost in the Texas area. We cobbled it all together in one cluster. So you had a whole compute mesh separated by thousands of miles all within a single cluster, single pane of glass. We take that and are starting to expand on the complexity of these architectures to overlay the network APIs we mentioned, to overlay multi-region support. So when we say you can use all 17 zones at once you actually can. >> So you've been talking about Wavelength and Outposts which are AWS products, but Microsoft and Google both have their distributed architectures as well. Where do you stand with those? Will you support those? Are you working with them? >> That's a great question. We have made announcements with Microsoft and Google but today I focus a lot on the work we do with AWS Wavelength and Outposts and continuing to work backwards from the customer and ultimately meet their needs. >> Yeah I mean, you got to start with an environment that the developers know that obviously a great developer community, you know, you see it at re:Invent. What was the reaction at re:Invent when you showed this from a developer community? >> Absolutely. Developers are excited and I think the best part is we're not the only ones talking about Wavelength not even AWS are the only ones talking about Wavelength. And to me from a developer ecosystem perspective that's when you know it's working. When you're not the one telling the best stories when others are evangelizing the power of your technology on your behalf that's when the ecosystem's starting to pick up. >> Speaking of making a bet on Outposts you know, it's somewhat limited today. I'll say it it's limited today in terms of we think it supports RDS and there's a few storage players. Is it your expectation that Outposts is going to be this essentially the cloud environment on your premises is that? >> That's a great question. I see it more as we want to expand customer choice more than ever and ultimately let the developers and architects decide. That's why I'm so bullish on this idea of hybrid MEC. Let's provide all of the options the most complicated geo distributed hybrid deployment you can imagine and automate it, make it easy. That way if you want to take away components of this architecture all you're doing is simplifying something that's already automated and fairly simple to begin with. So start with the largest problem to solve and then provide customers choice for what exactly meets their requirements their SLAs, their footprint, their network and work backwards from the customer. >> Exciting times ahead. Rob, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's great to have you. >> Appreciate it, thanks for your time. >> Good luck. All right, thank you for watching. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. We're live at Red Hat Summit 2022 from the Seaport in Boston. We'll be right back.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AI ops Virtual Forum Brought to you by Broadcom Welcome back to the Broadcom AI Ops Virtual Forum Lisa Martin here talking with Usman Naseer Global Product Management at Verizon we spend Welcome back. >>Uh huh. Hello, Good >>to see you. So 2020 The year of that needs no explanation. With the year of massive challenges, I wanted to get your take on the challenges that organizations are facing this year as the demand to deliver digital products and services has never been higher. >>Yeah, I e I think this is something is so close to all the part part right? It's something that's impacted the whole world equally. And I think regardless off which industry you win, you have been impacted by this in one form or the other and the i c t industry, the information and communication technology industry. You know, Verizon being really massive player in that whole arena, it has just been sort of struck with this massive confirmation that we have talked about for a long time. We have talked about these remote surgery capabilities whereby you got patients in Kenya were being treated by experts sitting in London or New York and also this whole consciousness about, you know, our carbon footprint and being environmentally conscious. This pandemic has taught a school of that and brought this to the forefront off organizational priority, right? The demand. I think that Zaveri natural consequence of everybody sitting at home. And the only thing that can keep things still going is the data communication, Right? But I would just say that that is what kind of at the heart of all of this. Just imagine if we are to realize any of these targets that the world is world leadership is setting for themselves. Hey, we have >>to be carbon >>neutral by Xia as a country as a geography, etcetera etcetera. You know, all of these things require you to have this remote working capability this remote interaction, not just between human but machine to machine interaction. And this is a unique value chain which is now getting created that you've got people we're communicating with other people or were communicating with other machines. But the communication is much more. I won't even use the term really time because we've used real time for voice and video, etcetera. We're talking low latency microsecond to see and making that can either cut somebody's, you know, um, our trees or that could actually go and remove the tumor, that kind of stuff. So that has become a reality. Everybody's asking for it. Remote learning, being an extremely massive requirement where, you know, we've had to enable these thes virtual classrooms ensuring the type of connectivity, ensuring the type of type of privacy which is just so, so critical. You can't just have everybody you know, Go on the internet and access the data source. You have to be. I'm sorry about the integrity and security of >>that. They've >>had the foremost. So I think all of these things, Yes. We have not been caught off guard. We were should be pretty forward looking in our, you know, plans in our evolution. But yes, it does this fast track a journey that we would probably the least we would have taken in three years. It has brought that down to two quarters where we had to execute them. >>Right? Massive acceleration. All right, so you articulated the challenges really well and a lot of the realities that many of our viewers air facing. Let's talk now about motivations ai ops as a tool as a catalyst for helping organizations overcome those challenges. >>So, yeah, now all that I said you can imagine, you know, it requires microsecond the sea and making which human being on this planet can do microsecond the sea and making on complex network infrastructure, which is impacting, and user applications which have multitudes off effect. You know, in real life, I used the example of a remote surgeon. Just imagine, if you know, even because you just lose your signal on the quality of that communication for that microsecond, it could be the difference between killing somebody in saving somebody's life. Is that particular? We talk about autonomous vehicles way talk about the transition to electric vehicles, smart motorways, etcetera, etcetera in federal environment. How is all of that going to work? You have so many different components coming in. You don't just have a natural can security anymore. You have software defined networking that's coming becoming a part of this. You have mobile edge computing that is rented for the technologies. Five g enables we're talking augmented reality. We're talking virtual reality all of these things require that resource is. And while we carbon conscious, we don't just wanna build a billionaire, a terrorist on the planet, right? We we have to make sure that resource is air given on demand and the best way of re sources can be given on demand and could be most efficient. Is that we're making is being made at million microsecond. And those resource is our accordingly being distribute. Right? If you're 10 flying on, people sipping their coffee is having teeth talking to somebody else. You know, just being away on holiday. I don't think we're gonna be able to handle that world that we have already stepped into. Risen's five g has already started businesses on the transformational journey where they're talking about end user experience, personalization. You're gonna have, you know, events where people are going to go. And it's going to be three dimensional experiences that are purely customized for you. How How does that all happen without this intelligence having their and a network with all of these multiple layers assaults spectrum, it doesn't just need to be intuitive. Hey, this is my private I p traffic. This is public traffic. You know it has to now be into or this is an application that to privatize over another has to be intuitive to the criticality in the context, off those transactions again that surgeons surgery is much more important than husband sitting and playing a video game. >>Yeah, I'm glad that you think that that's excellent. Let's go into some specific use cases. What are in some of the examples that you gave? Let's kind of dig deeper into some of that. What you think are the lowest hanging fruit for organizations, kind of pan industry to go after here. >>Excellent, right? And I think this just like different ways to look at the lowest timing food. Like for somebody like Verizon, who is the managed services provider, you know, very comprehensive medicines. But we obviously have food timing much lower than potentially for some of our customers who want to go on that journey, right? So for them to just >>go and try and >>harness the power of help, the food's might be a bit higher hanging. But for somebody like God, the immediate ones would be to reduce the number off alarms that are being generated by these overlays services. You've got your basic network. Then you've got your software defined networking. On top of that, you have your hybrid clouds. You have your edge computing coming on top of that, you know? So ALOF this means if there is an outrage on one device on the network, gonna make this very real for everybody, right? It's right out. I'm not divisive. Network does not stop all of those multiple applications for monitoring tools from raising havoc and raising thousands off alarms and everyone capacity. If people are attending to those thousands off alarms, it's like you having a police force. And there's a burglary in one bank and the alarm goes off in $50. How you gonna make the best use of your police force? You're gonna go investigate 50 banks? You wanna investigate one where the problem is. So it's as realize that and I think that's the first wind where people can save so much cost, which is currently being wasted. And resource is running around primary figure stuff up immediately. Anti this with network and security network and security is something which has eluded even the most. You know, amazing off brings in or engineering. Well, we took it. We have network expert, separate people. Security experts separate people to look for different things. But there are security events that can impact the performance of the network and then use your application, cetera, etcetera, which could be falsely attributed to the network. And then if you've got multiple parties, which are then which have to clear stakeholders, you can imagine the blame game that goes on pointing fingers, taking names, not taking responsibility. That is how all this happened. This is the only way to bring it all together to say Okay, this is what takes priority. If there's an event that has happened, what is its correlation to the other downstream systems, devices, components and user applications. And it subsequently, you know, like isolating into the right cause where you can most effectively resolve that problem. Certainly, I would say on demand virtualized resource virtualized resource is the heart and soul of the spirit of status that you can have them on them up so you can automate the allocation of these. Resource is based on, you know, customers consumption, their peaks, their crimes. All of that comes in. You see Hey, typically on a Wednesday, their traffic goes up significantly from this particular application. You know, going to this particular data center, you could have this automated this AI ops, which is just providing those resource, is, you know, on demand and tell us to have a much better commercial engagement with customers and just a much better service assurance model. And then one more thing on top of that, which is very critical, is that, as I was saying, giving that intelligence to the network to start having context of the criticality of a transaction that doesn't exist to it. You can't have that because for that you need to have this, you know, multi layer data. You need to have multiple system which are monitoring and controlling different aspects of your overall and user application value chain to be communicating with each other. And, you know, that's that's the only way to sort of achieve that goal. And that only happens with AI off. It's not possible with them. You can paradise Comdex. >>So Guzman, you clearly articulated some obvious low hanging for use cases that organizations can go after. Let's talk now about some of the considerations you talked about the importance of the network in AI ops. The approach, I assume, needs to be modular support needs to be heterogeneous. Talk to us about some of those key considerations that you would recommend >>absolutely. So again, basically starting with the network. Because if there is, if the network sitting at the middle of all of this is not working, then things from communicate with each other, right? And the cloud doesn't work. Nothing. None of this person has hit the hardest all of this. But then subsequently, when you talk about machine to machine communication or i o T. Which is the biggest transformation to spend, every company is going priority now to drive those class efficiencies enhancements. We've got some experience. The integrity off the tab becomes paramount, right? The security integrity of that. How do you maintain integrity off your detail beyond just the secured network components that Trevor right? That's where you get into the whole arena Blockchain technology where you have these digital signatures or barcodes that machine then and then an intelligent system is automatically able to validate and verify the integrity of the data and the commands that are being executed by those and you determine. But I think the terminal. So I o. T machines, right, that is paramount. And if anybody is not keeping that into their equation, that in its own self, is any eye off system that is therefore maintaining the integrity off your commands and your quote that sits on those those machines Right. Second, you have your network. You need to have any off platform, which is able to rationalize all the fat network information, etcetera. And couple that with that. The integrity peace. Because for the management, ultimately, they need to have a co haven't view off the analytics, etcetera, etcetera. They need to. They need to know where the problems are again, right? So let's see if there's a problem with the integrity off the commands that are being executed by a machine. That's a much bigger problems than not being able to communicate with that machine. And the first thing because you'd rather not talk to the machine or haven't do anything if it's going to start doing the wrong thing, So I think that's where it's just very intuitive. It's natural. You have to have subsequently if you have some kind of say and let me use that use case Off Autonomous comes again. I think we're going to see in the next five years it's much water rates, etcetera. It will set for autonomous because it's much more efficient. It's much more space, etcetera, etcetera. So whether that equation you're gonna have systems which will be specialist in looking at aspects and Trump's actions related to those systems, for example, an autonomous moving vehicle's brakes are much more important than the Vipers, Right? So this kind of intelligence, there will be multiple systems who have to sit and nobody has to. One person has to go and on these systems, I think these systems should be open source enough that you are able to integrate them, right? If something sitting in the cloud you were able to integrate for that with obviously the regard off the security and integrity off their data, that has two covers from one system to the extremely. >>So I'm gonna borrow that integrity theme for a second as we go into our last question. And that is this kind of take a macro. Look at the overall business impact that AI ops can help customers make. I'm thinking of, you know, the integrity of teams aligning business and I t. Which we probably can't talk about enough. We're helping organizations really effectively measure KP eyes that deliver that digital experience that all of us demanding consumers expect. What's the overall impact? What would you say in separation? >>So I think the overall impact is a lot. Of course, that customers and businesses give me term got prior to the term enterprises defense was inevitable. There's something that for the first time will come to light. And it's something that is going to, you know, start driving cost efficiencies and consciousness and awareness within their own business, which is obviously going to have, you know, abdominal kind of an effect. So what example being that, you know, you have a problem? Isolation? I talked about network security, this multilayered architectural which enables this new world of five g um, at the heart of all of it. It is to identify the problem to the source, right? Not be bogged down by 15 different things that are going wrong. What is causing those 15 things to go wrong, right that speed to isolation and its own self can make millions and millions off dollars to organizations every organization. Next one is obviously overall impacted customer experience. The five g waas. You can have your customers expecting experiences from you, even if you're not expecting to deliver them in 2021 2022. You'll have customers asking for those experiences or walking away if you do not provide those experiences. So for it's almost like a business can do nothing. Every year they don't have to reinvest if they just want to die on the wine. Businesses want to remain relevant. Businesses want to adopt the latest and greatest in technology, which enables them to, you know, have that superiority and continue it. So from that perspective that continue ity, we're ready that there are intelligence system sitting, rationalizing information and making this in supervised by people, of course, who were previously making some of those here. >>That was a great summary because you're right, you know, with how demanding consumers are. We don't get what we want. Quickly we turn right, we go somewhere else, and we could find somebody that can meet those expectations. So it was spent Thanks for doing a great job of clarifying the impact and the value that AI ops can bring to organizations. That sounds really now is we're in this even higher demand for digital products and services, which is not going away. It's probably going to only increase. It's table stakes for any organization. Thank you so much for joining me today and giving us your thoughts. >>Pleasure. Thank you. >>We'll be right back with our next segment.

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the Q covered AWS executive summit brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the Excenture executive summit here at AWS. Reinvent from Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by two guests for this segment. We have Greg sly, he is the SVP platform and infrastructure at Verizon. Thank you so much for coming on Greg. Thank you. Happy to be here and almost sad. K he is the managing director, Accenture global network services. Thank you so much. I'm all so Greg, I want to start with you wanting, everyone knows Verizon, it's a household brand. Tell our viewers a little bit just about how big you are, what countries you're in your reach. >>Okay. Well we're a global company. There's about 135 ish thousand employees in the company. The brands and they're, you know, they include Yahoo and AOL and HuffPost and riot and others. So we have a much more global reach with some of those brands overseas for is obviously very well known in the U S and overseas as well. And that's really where our big plays are. Now. We're big in Asia as well with our eCommerce sites and stuff. So it's, it's, it's global and it's everywhere. So, >>so give our viewers an overview of this current state of where you are in your journey to the cloud, the cloud effication of Verizon. >>Sure. So the last probably two years we've really put a lot of focus into moving out of our data centers and into the cloud. We focused primarily on workloads that are right for the cloud because we as during this journey we went, there's obviously huge data lakes and huge amounts of data equipped over two exabytes of data. And trying to move that to the cloud is obviously takes some time. But a lot of our front end apps from anything from, you know, where your order, your phone or where you order services to, whether you're on Yahoo fantasy sports or on finance page, those, those things tend to work well in the cloud and they're built for the cloud for very bursty type workflows. So we spend a lot of time moving a lot of our applications plus all the new Greenfield applications up into the cloud. So we're, we're considerable way down the path now on that. We're now getting to the tail end with these kind of massive data sets on what's our next step for those. And that's what we're working on now. >>Um, well I want to bring you into this conversation a little. What, what are you seeing right now across cross industry, the current state of deployments? >>Yeah, so I mean, just building on what Greg said it's almost a third wave of cloudification that we see now. So you know that we had the desegregation of hardware and software and most operators started to go globally towards cloud and then they sort of had the second way, which was really the own private cloud infrastructures. And now because we are here, you can see clearly the amount of public cloud infrastructure that's starting to come in and become relevant to this deployment. So it's almost a third wave where I see a lot of our clients globally looking at hybrid cloud type models for. And >>that really accelerates that cloudification journey because now you see a lot of workloads moving to a hybrid cloud environment. Just by the size of the ecosystem of suppliers and partners that are involved. We give you a sense of how accelerated this has become. I mean, the last three years I've seen in this event doubling of the number of partners who are just moving their workloads, whether it's compute, storage network to a hybrid cloud in one. So that acceleration has started and we expect in the next two to three years this will become mainstream. That I'm always right. We're been down that exact same journey where we've, we've done a lot of things up into the cloud like in AWS now, but we've also done a private cloud which enabled us as more like a development or a on-prem tool that allowed us to build, learn, and take applications that were not really ready for the cloud, are native for the cloud, build them on prem, wherever, a little bit more freedom to do some things and then learn and then move them up to the public cloud. So we've been down that exact same journey. >>So I also want to ask about a buzzword here, five G five G the arrival of five G. what it means to your industry and whether or not being in the cloud is ness is a necessary prerequisite to really capture all the benefits. >>I'm going to start on me. Sure, go ahead. No, I was just saying if you look at 5g, the reason it's so fundamentally different from previous generations is because 5g opens up a bunch of use cases that traditional TG for genetics did not and the size and skin of those use cases including like billions of devices and having really cool use cases like gaming and health and automotive and robotics in 10 places a huge burden on an infrastructure, which means cloudification does become a massive requisite. The level of skill size devices, latency profiles is something you only get when you are on a cloud infrastructure. So Greg, I agree 100% and this is going to drive new innovation that we've never seen before as we obviously being Verizon. 5g is one of our big, big bats. Obviously. That's one of the things that Andy and Hans talked about yesterday at the announcement here at reinvent and where we're seeing now with clarification, it's, it's literally I think one of the cornerstones of how it's going to work because we're going to have to put so much out to the far edge and out into as close to the customers as we can. >>The only way you're going to do that is through the cloud and using the cloud services like outpost and other services to push that out close to the, to our customers. So 5g and cloud are synonymous. They're going to go hand in hand. It's the only way it's going to work. And when, if I just save one last thing on what Greg said, cloudification was happening anyways and it was a great efficiency driver for all organizations. Five G's almost come in and lit a match and said, here's a lot of revenue opportunities that you can get on top and that has just accelerated >>the whole thing with distribution of five G and cloud. So that that's going to happen. >>Yeah, I think we're really only seeing the beginning. It's so early on in 5g and the journey to the cloud that I think next year's reinvent and the year after that I think we're going to look back and say this was really just the very beginning of what we're learning, what this technology can do for the world. >>I want to ask about innovation and this is something that Andy Jassy talked about in his fireside chat this morning is how AWS maintains its startup mentality even though it is of course a enormous company. How does, how do you think about innovation and approach innovation at Verizon? How do you make sure you are continuing to experiment and push boundaries even though you are a large and complex organization yourself? >>It's a good question. That's something we are always pushing. I think it starts from the top with Hans, he's, he's made one of his key pillars of innovation, of what we have to drive, listening to our customers and building on what they need, but we've spent a lot of time on redefining how we work to adapt to the cloud. So the days of in the past of, you know, we'll do one release every quarter, it's now how many releases a day can you do? And the only way you can do that innovation through bucket testing, through AB testing is literally embracing the cloud and doing small tests here and there on stuff. So it's really now learning from the internet startups, trying to keep that startup mentality in a company the size that's 137,000 employees. But it's building that culture and I think Hans has been a great leader to really drive that, that different way of working. So, >>um, well we've seen a dizzying number of announcements from AWS, new products and new services that are coming out. What are, what is most caught your attention and how are you thinking about how to help clients capture the benefits of what AWS is offering? >>You know, the thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the keynote was this is probably the first time there is a recognition in the industry that it's an ecosystem play. And what I mean by that is a lot of the challenges that were seen in the last couple of years around getting 5g mainstream, getting all these things in the market was who does it, who supports them and this whole ecosystem and yesterday's announcement where you know Andy enhance and other carriers like water, phone and so on are coming in and saying, you know what? Let's do this together. Let's collaborate. To me that really hit the Mark because as you start building specific use cases to make this real for a consumer like us, you will see that an ecosystem plays the only way to make this a reality. And that's what really struck me. If you look at Waveland, if you look at local zones, all the announcements that were done yesterday, all of them require app development communities, escalates session partnerships. It requires hardware partnerships, services firms. It requires of omic Accenture to come in and do this secret sauce. So there's lot of things that have to >>be done there. And I believe that's what really caught my eye, that it's an ecosystem. Now you have the amount of collaboration going forward. Is going to be unprecedented because no one company is going to be able to do all of it. >>So how do we, you're both technology veterans. I mean you're just babes. You're, you're just teenagers of course. But thinking about how different it is today versus when you were just beginning your careers in terms of, I mean we have this idea of this cutthroat competitive world of technology, but as you said, there is, these companies need each other. I mean they're there, they're competing of course, but they also desperately need each other to make sure their business models are successful. So can you just describe this landscape for, for our viewers in terms of what you've seen as changes and whether or not these changes are for the good? >>Well, starting in the mainframe days, which is where I started and then kind of went wound, don't, you know, windows NT and the distributed compute, you're right, it was very do it ourselves. We're the only ones that could do it. You have to hide everything from all your competitors because we're providing a solution and nobody sees anybody else a secret sauce. And obviously protecting IP was key. Now we've seen open source take a much broader stroke across the canvas and we've also now everyone's got what are we best at and how do we use that rather than trying to be all things to everybody and building partnerships. So you're right, we have partnerships with company that we compete with, but we also have relationships. We need to work together to make this happen. So it is completely different from what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago on how you're collaborating on one part of a company who should come. >>Competing is one area, but you're actually collaborating to build a product to go to market together at another one. So it's really interesting. I mean the market forces have changed dramatically. I mean, I remember when I was in my telecom operator days with BT, we used to as great selling or love technology, we used to start in the labs and in the labs we use engineering was a sort of bread and butter. And then this focus on customer centricity in the last couple of years around so much choice, so much availability of solutions in the market. And as Greg said, the collaboration is a must do now. And that's why that focus changed for us. And I see now this customer centricity becoming so important that what does the end user really want? And then that comes with it and realization that says, okay, I am not able to provide this by myself, but I do know how to solve for it. >>And that's when you have to bring in others who can create a solution. You're absolutely right because you know, 10 years ago, 1520 years ago, technology was still so new. Most people weren't comfortable yet and really knew what it could do or what they wanted. And it was a room full of architects designing what it was going to be. Now it's a room full of customers telling you what they want and going out. So it's completely changed now where we'll build what the customer, what we think the customer needs. Now we're building what the customer tells us they want. So it's been a one 80 >>so Greg, I know before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about how you'd been to this conference years ago and now just the growth that it has experienced has really shocked your, your sphere system. Um, what kinds of conversations are you having? What are the messages that you're hearing, a particular letter that are particularly resonant to you right now? This idea of the fourth industrial revolution. Do you buy it? >>I absolutely buy it and it's not just drinking the Koolaid because I work at Verizon. It's actually seeing what's possible in health. What's possible in gaming, automotive industry. Like you were saying at the beginning, it's one thing that struck me in Pedder was through the conversation we were having of how many people I've met here and when I was walking through the expo downstairs I was like, Oh, we have a relationship with them now. We have relationship with them. There's like half the floor down there that we have some sort of relationship with that were other customer or a partner or providing services to that. It's, it's, it's changed where before you'd have a booth and you're like, how many people can we get over there? Now it's like how do we get a booth with our partners that we can talk about a common solution that we're providing back? >>So it's, it's been amazing from like it reinvent four or five years ago it was like one hotel was still pretty full up to like four or five hotels now with with 65,000 people or something. It's, it's amazing. But, but the conversations before too used to be, we can only talk if we go into a private room over here. It's now that there's so many people and so many conversations and they're like, Oh let me pull them all in. Let me pull Rebecca cause we're all talking about the same thing now. So it's become more open. There's still sure there's IP and things we have to protect and we all have our company strategies, but there's now there's so much collaboration, there's a lot more conversations going on now. I mean the focus will now move to how do we operationalize this industrial revolution because that's where a lot of engineering horsepower, a lot of scaling would have to happen in terms of, it would be great to launch health as a service or gaming as a service and all of these things. >>But you know when things go wrong, which Deville in the early years of adoption, somebody is going to have to take the call, somebody is going to have to manage the customers. Somebody who's going to have to, because that's where the test would happen in terms of okay this is going to stick and this is going to work. So to me the next two to three years of this event will be around how do I operationalize and scale what we've now started? Cause I think that's where the rubber is going to hit the road. And I think even at Accenture we see this with all our work. It's moving more and more towards how do I monetize the use cases, how do I now build on it? How do I implement at scale? So that's, that's really what I see happening >>coming up. We were, we're on, we're on the cusp of 2020 there's so many new emerging technologies and of course the old technologies which are still pretty new machine learning, AI, IOT. What are some of the exciting trends that you're looking at coming in next year and the next three to five years in terms of your business and an industry wide? Two ML? >>Well for me there's obviously the stuff that we're talking about with five G and waving, but one that really struck me at this conference was how we're going to be treating data differently or I should say storage of data differently. Where before it was like buy huge storage devices and you'd have petabytes and petabytes or exabytes of data in a data somewhere, data centers somewhere. It's now distributed out to the far edge. It's, it's going to be much more in the cloud, much more dispersed. Obviously that's going to bring challenges around, you know, with, with GDPR, with, with, you know, the, the California protection act, all of those that are coming as well of how we're going to deal with that. So absolutely the 5g and the announcements went on yesterday. But in my slice of the world, looking at how are we going to manage, transform, handle, distribute data and how we're going to protect user's privacy through all of that is really interesting. And I think a new field that we're, it's just changing so rapidly day to day >>and one that's really part of our national conversation too in terms of privacy and security. >>Well I think to me the key trend would be adjacencies. And what I mean by that is we've always been a little bit siloed traditionally in terms of, you know, there is a telco industry solution and then there is a mining solution and then there is a automotive solution, right? And the technology is blurring these lines. Now, you know, like as Greg said, I can have a intelligent 5g conversation with a gentleman, car manufacturing company that I wouldn't have dreamed of having a couple of years ago. So that trend is set to accelerate because 5g edge compute, all of these things are going to be more and more applicable to adjacent industries. And this is why I always believe the telecom sector has a pivotal role, almost a orchestrator role that says as these industries look for solutions we have those, we just haven't adapted and customized are social. That I think would be a big trend. I see other industries are going to cash in on what we've done. >>I'm all, Greg, thank you so much for coming on the cube. A really fascinating conversation. Oh, pleasure. I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit. Coming up in just a little bit.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, live from AWS re:Invent 19 in Vegas. I am Lisa Martin with John Furrier and we're going to be taking something that was an exclusive from John's interview with Andy Jassy from a couple days ago, something that he told John. We're going to be talking about it here with Verizon. Please welcome Steve Szabo, Head of Global Products and Solutions IOT and 5G Edge. Welcome, Steve. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. This is an exciting day. >> It is an exciting day. So one of the things that Andy Jassy told John in that exclusive interview that went viral, if you haven't read it check it out, was that companies are going to want to eliminate network hops and find a way to have the compute in the storage much more local to the 5G network edge. Tell us, what did AWS and Verizon just unveil this morning? >> Yeah. So today it's all about Verizon's network in AWS cloud, right? So we've taken what they're calling Wavelength, their centralized cloud platform. We're moving it into Verizon's network, fully integrated. This is 18 months of engineering effort so this isn't something that you just wake up and you have access to. This is a lot of blood, sweat and tears that the companies have put in together to get this opportunity. What this does is it takes their cloud capabilities, it puts them on our network, fully integrated with the radio access layer so that customers will have access to everything that they were using from an AWS perspective but then also be able to leverage Verizon's network capability. So all the API's, the Eight Currencies that Hans talked about on stage today, giving developers and businesses alike the opportunity to leverage the best of those and go ahead and leverage the bandwidth, the latency type use cases and really transform the way that folks are thinking about leveraging the network. >> You know Steve, one of the things in the networking the computer industry, everyone always talks about trade-offs, hops on the network spectrum. I got a longer range or shorter throughput. 5G's got some pretty significant bandwidth up to 10G's >> Yeah. >> Gigs on that. That's phenomenal but the foot press is a little bit different. So that begs the question for high bandwidth needs whether it's gaming, immersive experiences, whatever, you got to bring the compute. This is the whole thesis of Amazon's shift. They're bringing Amazon to the Edge, you guys are providing it. What's different about the Verizon 5G that makes this a unique opportunities? Is it the throughput, is it the topology, is that the-- >> We'd like to think it's a little bit of everything, right? >> John: Tell us how it works. >> Yeah, I mean listen at the end of the day, we have 5G. It's opening up the Eight Currencies. When you factor in 5G Edge, that's when you really see the power of 5G and then when you layer on the AWS Wavelength stack, integrate it into the network, it just gives an opportunity for folks to take advantage of these Eight Currencies. A hundred feet behind me at our booth, we have Bethesda gaming and that was one of the things that we talked about. But if you think about it, they have an Orion gaming platform. They leverage AWS today, they want to reach out and have the ability to have their gaming platform stream to Verizon customers using mobile devices. If you think about the fact that you can almost take the console out of the home, folks are literally leveraging GPU/CPU intensive graphic and gaming streaming content and they're using a Bluetooth controller and they're doing it on a Verizon 5G device. I mean who would have thought that you'd be able to do that and you could see it and that's live in Chicago now, they're piloting it on our network. >> Talk about the partnership with Amazon. You mentioned it wasn't just an overnight thing. Multiple months in the making announced on a statutory wave length, was their product, that's the stack. It's essentially an outpost for Telco that's where I'm going. >> Steve: Yeah. >> There's some things in there but they still got to deploy it. What does that look like? How long have you guys been over at Amazon? And you shared some details on the relationship. Where is it located? Is it under, in your network close to the Edge? How close is it? Has it all all worked? >> Yeah. So we'll touch on what we can here but it's live in Chicago, so that's our first market. We'll take an approach to announce it similar to what we've done with our 5G city announcements which is we'll work with our partners. We'll talk internally and then we'll announce those, does it make sense into other markets and cities. Currently, the way that it works is that our SAP sites or our service access points, AWS will have their equipment. It'll be tightly integrated with our radio access network which is when you could see the benefits of the low latency and the computer are all kind of working together. The way for folks to procure that is they would go through. If you're an AWS customer today and you're getting storage and compute, you would be able to access that through AWS's portal environment. It'd just be labeled as Verizon 5G Edge capabilities. If you're buying bandwidth, if you need pro services help or other network service capabilities, you'd work with the Verizon just like you do today. It's a true partnership opportunity and it allows us to kind of work together and kind of head on this journey. >> So the key thing is here, Amazon console, access, click, provisioning? >> They're in, yeah. We did all the hard work and engineering between the two of us to make it as easy as possible for the developers and the businesses, quite honestly. We want what they're familiar with today both on our network and in the tools that they're using in the cloud to be the same experience that they have only just with the benefits of Wavelength and with Verizon. >> Any feedback you can share on the early returns or early engagements or early tinkering and playing around that you could share? >> You know, I would tell you that it's operating as we would expect it to and that's why I would encourage people to go over to our booth and see what's happening over there because when I say that it's live and it's working, it isn't a video, it isn't anything that folks are talking about. This is on our production network. Bethesda is actually gaming with it, leveraging AWS Wavelength and we've got other customers that are all working with it as well. >> And if they're not on here on site, can they go to the website? Is it online now or-- >> Yeah, you'll be able to see whether you go through Verizon's web experiences or AWS portal, it will redirect you either way to learn more. So if you want to learn more about the capabilities on Verizon's side, you'll punch into our site. If you want to go learn more about Wavelength, and what Amazon is doing, we'll punch it back to them. >> So let's talk about benefits. You gave a great example of somebody gaming and that they're accessing live streaming content from wherever they are from the Bluetooth device. So I can understand it from that perspective. But from a business perspective, business apps to business apps, what are some of the projected benefits that enterprises are going to see with that respect? >> Well, I think a couple of things. One, it's going to open up used cases for latency intensive so I brought up Bethseda for a reason. Their cloud gaming to actually stream DOOM which is the game that the demoing in our booth. They couldn't do it without the Edge, right? They would not have the real time gaming capabilities to actually work without it. When you start thinking about retail environments and getting into AR/VR, these immersive experiences to get customers to come into the four walls of your retail building, the ability to have application services that will reach out and engage with consumers for a variety of things whether that's helping them with their buying experience or just for the benefit of your business, gathering intensive sensory data and kind of getting into the AI NML of how your business is operating on a day to day basis, it opens up a variety of things. It's really an ecosystem which is what I think the power of this partnership is all about, right. We're bringing our customers in our network, combine that with AWS services and their developer community and I think you know it's a tool in the developer toolbox that whether you're a developer at a large enterprise, a small business, public sector, et cetera, it's something that you can use your imagination to go out and do something with and kind of test the balance of-- >> You think about the headroom available in terms of future proofing. You got optimization closer to the Edge Edge >> Steve: Yeah. >> You got inside the network capabilities to manage software, to manage resources kind of a new architecture. >> Steve: Yeah. >> A new way to think about resources allocation from bandwidth to compute to data. >> You bring up a great point because that's something you had mentioned earlier about the difference between what we've done versus cola or something like that and this is a full integration. So the ability to architect something that did not actually exist before. A Wavelength is new for AWS, our 5G Edge and our 5G network capabilities. Integrating that seamlessly so that the developer and the enterprise business can have access to that with having a minimal impact of their user experience is really important and then you figure on the layering of possibilities as they start getting more familiar with it. >> Andy Jassy mentioned on Steve with your chairman and CEO a comment. I don't know if it was just a preambling of the intro but he said Verizon, the leader in 5G. I'm sure he meant that. For the folks that aren't following the 5G situation, are you guys the leader and in what way are you leading compared to the others? How should consumers think about 5G? It's almost like this magic pixie that's almost a magic, wait a minute we can't have those speeds, some say hype. What is the reality of the 5G and why are you guys being called the leader? >> Yeah, well we were the first to market with 5G so by default, I think that makes us the leader. But we'll be in 30 cities by the end of the year. The fact that we're the first to have 5G Mobile Edge Computing capabilities, it's integrated with AWS Wavelength, that's to my knowledge not out there in the market yet today. The ability is the fact that we have this live in Chicago, we have customers using it, it's demonstrating real world views cases on a live production network. I mean we're excited about it, it's something we're proud of and it's something that we expect to watch grow and actually ID it with the customers in mind. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> One of the things that Andy and John talked about, and with this whole not just the notion of transformation and there's a lot of talk about transformation today, but also the fact that businesses you know, the vast majority that are around today, if they're not already iterating and moving towards digitalization and modernization that there are a million companies probably doing the same thing or very similar that are going to be able to take them over. But that's a hard change for an legacy enterprise to be able to do. This new ecosystem that Verizon and AWS are building and delivering, what do you guys see together as its ability to be an enabler to transform businesses such that we don't see a business doesn't go by way of Toys R Us, for example? >> Yeah. Well, I think the fact that 5G and the Edge, it offers you to touch out and reach the customers in a way that you couldn't before for your business, that's one. Two, this is geared around 5G and Edge and that's when you really see the power of what we're doing between Verizon and AWS. But one thing that I'd like to highlight is wherever you're at on your digital transformation, some people are going to be starting from zero and some are going to be more advanced. I mean that's a reality of kind of the technology and business alike. We actually have solutions today. AWS has products today. They're already in the cloud. We have LTE capabilities and other network services capabilities, virtualized network, software-defined network capabilities. We can work with customers and help them kind of grow into where they want to be. We did not want somebody to feel like they're buying in and almost isolating themselves into a technology. What we're all about is helping them build the solution that's right for them at whatever point in the journey they're at and then helping them grow into where they can be with 5G and Edge compute. >> Yeah, and I think this is also instructive for the industry structures. You look at the landscape of everyone thinking about re platforming their business in the modern era. You guys have a great footprint, great leadership. Just the idea of this win-win, it makes you guys so much more powerful for future applications. I mean, I can almost see if the Edge is just becoming a very fertile ground for entrepreneurial activity, applications that you guys are going to be powering. I mean "Born on the Edge" might be the new phrase, not "Born in the cloud". >> It could be yeah. >> Born on the Edge. >> You can trademark that. (laughing) >> Now, we're excited. I mean listen, it could be anyone from two people in a garage developing something to developers at a small, medium or large business, taking advantage of use cases and things that might not been achievable. >> We'll go for it. >> Global education. >> Yeah. >> I mean it's endless opportunity there. >> There are opportunities in energy management sustainability we're very proud of. Education, health care, are going to be areas that we'll focus on so there's a lot of opportunity out there. We're at the forefront in our opinion at helping just jumpstart that ecosystem and we're excited about it. >> Congratulations. Really, really great. >> I'll echo that, congratulations and thank you for sharing with John and me more detail about AWS and Verizon, this new ecosystem that opens up tremendous amount of opportunity. We appreciate your time, Steve. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much for the time and we're excited, it's a big day. >> It is a big day. >> Big announcement. >> For Steve and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE from re:Invent 19 from Vegas. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> It's been great. >> Robert Herjavec. >> I mean, you guys are excited where you are, no? >> Dancing with the Stars, of course. >> His CUBE alumni. (techno music) Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. (crowd talking) >> And welcome back to our live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, here for three days of wall to wall coverage, 8,000 people up from 4,000 last year. Growing Kubernetes and the Cloud Native ecosystem around KubeCon. Next two guests, John Morello, CTO of Twistlock, hot start-up to the news. And Nanda Kumar, who's a Fellow Systems engineer at Verizon's Global Technology Service. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> Congratulations on your news and Kelsey wearing your shirt on theCUBE earlier. (they laugh) >> Thanks for having us. >> So take a minute to explain what you guys do, your story, you guys got to lot of hot things happening. Take a minute to talk about the company's value-- >> Yeah, sure, so we've been around for about four years now or going on four years. We're kind of the first company in this space that's really focused on cloud native cybersecurity. So, the idea is not just to take the existing capabilities that you've had on traditional systems and kind of retrofit them onto this new platform. But really to leverage the way that the cloud native space works, to be able to do security in a different and hopefully a more effective way. Cloud native has this notion of immutability and being able to take the same artifact from development to staging to production. And that enables us to do things in a security fashion that you really haven't been able to do in the past. Like actually be able to enforce security controls at the very beginning of the life cycle of the app. To be able to ensure consistency in your compliance posture all the way through production. And then as we learn things at runtime, to be able to signal that knowledge back to the developer, so they can actually improve the security application in the beginning. We basically have a platform that gives you those capabilities, vulnerability management, compliance, runtime defense, and firewalling across VMs, containers, and serverless across any clouds you have. We're not specific to any one cloud provider-- >> Is like telemetry coming back to the developer in real time? >> Yeah, basically as an example, when you have an application that's deployed, in the old world you as the developer would give the app to an operator, they would deploy it, and maybe weeks later, somebody would scan it, and they'd say you've got these vulnerabilities and then they have to go back and tell somebody to go and fix them. There's a lot of time where you're exposed, there's a lot of cost with that operation. The way that we're able to do it for the vulnerability case is as the developer builds the application, every build they do, Twistlock can scan that and see the vulnerabilities and actually enforce that as a quality gate and say if you've got critical vulnerabilities, you have to fix 'em before you progress. And then as you take that application and move that into test and staging and production, we create this dynamic runtime model that describes basically an implicit allow list of what's normal behaviors. So you don't have to tell us that my web server normally runs in Gen X and listens on port 80, we learn that automatically. We create this reference model where you can understand what's normal and then we automatically prevent anomalies. So unlike that traditional world of security where you had to have a whole bunch of manual rules that try to blacklist every thing that was bad, (John Furrier laughs) we just say, we learn what's good and only allow that. >> It's predictive and prescriptive in one. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What's the role here with Kubernetes, how do you fit into the Kubernetes standardization, momentum? >> For us, we've kind of pre-dated the rise of Kubernetes in some ways, and really supported Kubernetes from the very beginning when the project became popular. Our platform is designed to work as a native cloud native app itself, so when you deploy Twistlock, you run the Twistlock console, our management service and API controller. All that's run just as a cloud native app. You deploy as a replication controller. When you deploy Twistlock defender, our agent effective error, containerized agents to all the nodes where you're writing compute jobs, you run that as a Damon set. So for us, not only do we protect the platform, but we just are a part of the platform. There's nothing abnormal that you have to do. You deploy it and manage it like you would any other Kubernetes application. >> All right, Nanda, let's pull you into the conversation here. >> Sure. Verizon, obviously most people know, explain what your group does, how cloud native fits into what you're doing. >> I'm part of the Global Technology Services organization. Verizon, as you probably know, is a mixed bag of different types of businesses brought together, wireless being the most prominent one that most of you know about it. But we also have other solutions, like our file solutions. And recently with our acquisition of Yahoo, which is gold, and so forth. Verizon is actually on a major transformation journey. Our transformation journey spans around a five year program. We are in year number three of this transformation and cloud native and cloud technology is a very foundational aspect for us as part of this transformation. I was just chatting with John earlier. Opportunity like this doesn't come that often because we are in a perfect intersection of where automation and Verizon is doing a cloud migration and then you have these cloud native technologies that have been made available. Where it's Kubernetes, container, and so forth. So that mesh of the opportunity to migrate. And as you migrate, you're taking advantage of these technologies, and modernizing your application stack is a big win. >> Okay, can you connect for us the intersection of what you were just talking about and 5G, which is you know, really going to be a huge impact on everything happening in telecommunications. >> Yeah, the whole idea about 5G for us is it's not just the next generation of technology. It's all about the human element ability of it. Basically it means we want to make sure that the technology is used to solve real human problems and the technology is capable of doing that. Be it whether it's a life science or be it in transportation and so forth. We really want to make sure that the technology is being used to solve real human problems and to enable the consumption of this technology. We won't take advantage of cloud native services to support it. >> Help boil it down for us because, just in general, you say even domestically, I think it's like 40% of the U.S. population doesn't have access to broadband. Those of us at the conference here understand that wireless isn't always reliable. 5G silver bullet, everybody's going to have infinite bandwidth everywhere, right? >> Absolutely. (Stu laughs) And that's the valued proposition of the technology that it brings to the table. I know the spread of the technology is going to vary depending upon the commercialization of the product, the solution, and so forth. But the reality is in the new world that we live in, it is not just one piece of technology that's going to make it. It's going to be a mesh of the new technologies like 5G with a combination of WiFi and so forth. All of this coming together. It all comes down to fundamentally what are the use cases or what type of solutions are you going to go after and how it's going to make sense. >> How has cloud native in this transformation changed how you guys make investments? Obviously, the security equation's paramount. Central to the that, lot of data. How is the investments and how you guys are building out changed? Obviously you're looking at re-imagining operations, security, et cetera et cetera. How's that going to shape for you guys-- >> One of the things that Nanda and I were talking about earlier that not because of cloud native but it's enabled by cloud native. I think you look at almost all organizations today, and to reuse that phrase that Andreessen quoted about softwaring the world. It really is a true thing. Unlike in the past where IT had been this cost center that most organizations sought to strangle out and reduce as much as possible, I think most, at least modern companies that will be successful in the future, realize that that's part of their competitive advantage. It's not just about providing an app because your competitor has an app, it's about providing a better experience so that you're driving more revenue, having a better relationship, a longer term deeper relationship with that customer. Like we were talking about, in his case, if they build kind of a minimal application or minimal experience for their customers, their customers may choose to go to AT&T or whomever else if they can feel like hey, it's easier for me to work with them. I get better data, I can use my systems more easily. If you have that inflection point where people are having to really invest in building better software, better industry specific software, you need those tools of mass innovation to do that. And that's what cloud native really is. It's about being able to take and innovate and iterate on those innovations much more rapidly than you've been able to do in the past. And so it's really this confluence of those two trends that make this space as big as it is. That's why we have so many people here at KubeCon. >> Oh, you go faster too. The investment in apps, your applications, faster. And your talking about your security solution replaces the old way of hey, is there a problem, we'll patch it. >> It also has to get away from that approach where people took in the past where security was always this friction. It was this impediment, you know, you wanted to deploy something and you had to go through the security review and create all this rules and it was a hassle and slowed things down. If that's your approach to security, you're going to be at a fundamental conflict to this new approach. >> I think you'll be out of business personally, I think that ship has sailed, that's dead. We see the breaches every day, you see on all the dark webs who've been harvesting all that. IoT though is a different kind of animal. How are you guys looking at the IoT equation because that's a good use case for cloud? You can push now compute to the edge, you don't have to move data around. Certainly you guys are in the telecom business, you know what that means, so latency matters. How are you looking at the edge, IoT, and where does security fit into that? >> In terms of IoT, I think as you mentioned, there are going to be use cases where IoT's going to be very critical. There are two paradigms to the concept of the mobile edge compute. One is for the IoT use cases, the other could be even for like AR/VR is a good example. You want the compute to be so fast where you want responses immediately based on the location you are and so forth. So that's a very important foundation that we're working on and making that a reality for our organization to come use it. And of course any solution that we provide, security needs to be baked into it, because that's going to be foundation for how to-- >> Back to your 5G point, that's great back haul too for those devices. That one at least. If they want to send data back or interface with the edge, and power and compute, you need power and connectivity. >> Yep, exactly, very true. >> What's next, I guess? If you look forward, where's this journey going? How does this partnership help solve things? >> I think the key to any successful transformation is you got to take into consideration your current landscape. You certainly can have a broad vision of where the future is and so forth, but if you can't build the bridge between where we are and where we need to go, that's going to be a very challenging space so when you look at the cloud native technologies, we look at making it operational efficiency for us. In terms of how do we do our operations, like the earlier question we talked about, what is changing for us? Our operation's getting better. Our security portion is getting better because we're now shifting more of this to left. Which means as the workloads are being built and so forth. We're taking into consideration how it's going to run, where it's going to run and so forth. So that's going to create the savings and operational efficiency, which then allows us to take that and transform it into how do we focus on more modern technologies and modern solutions and so forth. >> Customer satisfaction. >> And customer satisfaction. >> Those are the top line business for every new model. >> So I got to ask, how is it going with Twistlock? Where's their role in your transformation? It's on the security side? >> Mm-hmm. >> Where do they play into your mix? >> So when we rolled out our solution for our Kubernetes platform, we certainly want to make sure that, to John's earlier point, where we can shift left and really look at security wholistically. And the only way you could do that is you need to capture the essence or integrate security as the project's being built. Because today we do have a security portion, but it's kind of where you have it during the development phase or during operations or doing it on time. You're not able to stitch it together. But with container and Kubernetes, you now have the advantage of really knowing what is end to end. And that is where our partnership with Twistlock has to be able to oversee that and provide that insight on what is running, where it's running, what levels exist, and how do we fix it. >> It kind of makes sense too. We've talked for years, the perimeter is dead. You guys are addressing security upfront at the application level where it's coding. This is working out for you guys well? >> Yep, and that's been a big shift in fact for why they've been successful with this transformation. Because we know have inside steward and everybody in the organization has a line off-site to what's going on, where things are running and so forth. It's been a great partnership. >> John, talk about this dynamic 'cause this is really kind of compelling because we've heard, "Oh, yeah, we're throwing everything "against the wall in security." And everyone always says, "Hey, the perimeter is dead "and you got to start with security in mind from day one." Well, I mean, what is day one? The minute you start coding, right? >> I get your overall point about the perimeter being dead. I would actually rephrase it a bit and say, "The perimeter being dissolved." And I think that's really a more probably accurate way to look at it. What used to be this very tightly defined like, we deploy things in this network or even VPC and it's got this control around it. Whereas a lot of customers today we see choosing an intentional multi-cloud strategy. They want to preserve the ability to have some leverage, not just with Amazon, but with Azure, or with Google, or whomever it may be on-premises. And when you have that model where you've got infrastructure and multiple regions, multiple different providers, you no longer have that very clean separation between what's yours and what's kind of out on the outside. And so one of the things that we really think is important is to be able to bring the perimeter to the application. So the way that we look at protecting the application is around the app itself, regardless of what the underlying compute platform is, the cloud, the region, it's really about protecting the app. You learn how those different microservices normally communicate with each other. You only allow that normal good communication unless you can really constrain a blast radius if you do have some kind of compromise in the future. And the minute you really try to mitigate that compromise is to again find those vulnerabilities as you develop the app, and prevent them in development before they ever get out to production. >> And that's a super smart approach, I love that. I think it's a winner, congratulations. Final question, what's the prediction for multi-cloud in 2019? Since you brought it up, multi-cloud seems to be the hot thing. What's your prediction 2019? It becomes a conversation? It becomes practice? >> I would say at this point, it already is practice in most organizations. And I would say that in 2019, you'll see that become something that's accepted not just as an option but as really the preferred, the better operational model. So you're able to choose technology platforms and operational approaches that are designed to work in a model in which you have multiple providers. Because you have a dependency layer that you can take now with Kubernetes and containers that's universal across those. Theoretically, you could have always taken a VM you put in ager and moved it to AWS, but it was really difficult and painful and hard to do that. If you do that well with Kubernetes, it's really pretty straightforward to deploy an application across multiple providers or multiple regions of the same provider even. And I think you'll see that become a more real thing in 2019 because it gives you as a company, or you as a customer, more leverage to be able to choose the services and negotiate the rates that you want with your provider. >> And if you move security to the app level like you guys are doing, you take away all that extra work around how to send policy and make it dynamic. >> Exactly. Our customers may have one Twistlock environment that manages things in Azure and AWS and GCP and on-premises and that's fine because we care about protecting the app not the interlying infrastructure. >> You agree? >> Absolutely, I think that's going to be the case even from our perspective. You're always going to look for where is the best place around these workloads and in a cost-effective way and secure manner. And as long as you're a single-controlled plane that you can manage it, I think the multi-cloud is going to be the ideal-- >> Make it easier to operate, standard language for developers, lock in security at the front end. >> That's right. >> Good stuff. Guys thanks for coming out. >> Sure. >> Appreciate the insight. Smart commentary here on security, cloud native, Kubernetes, I'll break it down here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us. More day one coverage of three days of live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering the AWS Accenture Executive Summit. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Welcome back, everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Executive Summit here in Las Vegas. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have today, Mahmoud El Assir, he is the CTO and Senior Vice President of Global Technology Services at Verizon. And Annette Rippert, Senior Managing Director, Accenture Technology, North America. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Great to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> So we are talking today about Verizon's migration to the cloud, but Verizon is a company that many people have familiarity with, Mahmoud. Just lay out a few facts and figures for our viewers here. >> Sure, I'll say Verizon is Fortune 16 company. Last year we made $126 billion dollars from our, kind of, loyal customers. We are, today we deployed, we were the first people to deploy 5G. And we have 98% coverage in U.S., so we are America's fastest and most reliable wireless service. >> So it's a company that touches so many of our lives. >> Yup. >> Earlier this year, Verizon selected AWS as its preferred cloud provider. What was, one, what was the impetus for moving to the cloud? And two why AWS? >> Yeah, that's a great question. But I'd like to zoom out a little but more and talk about what is Verizon? What's our mission and how kind of tackling it? So when you think about Verizon, our mission is to deliver the promise of the digital world, right? Enable, deploy 5G and enable the 4th Industrial Revolution. And as part of this, it's all about empowering humans to do more, right? And in global technology solutions our winning aspiration is to develop products and services that our customers and employees love. And then we, and also to be the destination for world class technology talent. And be the investment innovation center for the company. So when it comes to digital transformation we look at the enables and where we want to invest our energy and how do you want to leverage the right partners. So the heart of our technology transformation is the public cloud. When you think about what the public cloud, it's like where you want us. It will allow us to spend more of our energy building solutions and for our customers. And creating value for our customers. Also public cloud will allow us, and or business, to experiment faster, better and cheaper. In technology our focus is to always save on efficiency, speed and innovation. So that is our kind of model and at the heart of this, public cloud is a key kind of element for our journey. >> Well I want to get into that journey a little bit more, but Annette, I want to bring you into the conversation here. So, Verizon is one of the leading communications companies that is migrating to the cloud at this scale. >> Yes. >> What are some of the lessons, as you have helped and observed and also helped this partnership grow, what are some of the key takeaways that you would say? >> Well, I think there is a couple you know, if you take a look at some of the lessons that our clients learn. You know when at Accenture we go into the market really helping our clients think about how do we leverage technology for achieving business outcomes. You just talked about some extraordinary business outcomes that you're looking to achieve and you'll do that through a variety of things, including leveraging technology. And so, just like that we encourage our clients to be thinking about what is the business innovation? What is the outcome? The disruption that we're looking to achieve through leveraging technologies like AWS, right? I think secondly, if you think a little bit about the importance in that journey of communicating that vision. Of what will it mean to be able to leverage that kind of technology? You just communicated a very strong vision. And that's so important to the change journey that many of these organizations go on. You know there is the importance of the investment strategy, but ultimately, the innovation that the organization itself the engineers within the organization are a part of delivering, you know, the kind of innovation that you'll be delivering is really, it will not only make such a big impact on those in your enterprise, delivering that. But, you know, to all of us who are consumers of your business strategy which will be fabulous. And I think, in the end, you know, one of the most exciting things, and it's really sitting Alexis, as we were talking a little bit about some of what Verizon is doing earlier in the day, one of the most important things is really thinking about how this provides an opportunity for the enterprise to change. So, you know, moving to be a much more agile enterprise, being able to respond to market changes, and certainly in the business that you're in, the market is changing everyday. And so by leveraging innovative products like AWS' platform, you know it really provides the opportunity to constantly leverage new technology in that environment. >> And that, as you said, the market is changing everyday and customers, they're demanding things and companies are providing customers with things they don't even know that they want until they have them in their hands. How, at a time when customer differentiation is such a key competitive advantage, how are you staying ahead of the game and making sure that you know you're sort of getting inside the heads of your customers? And then you're also delivering what they want and expect. >> Customers comes first at Verizon, right? So it's at the heart of our technology is also leveraging emerging technology. So cloud is one, scaling AIML is another one. One of the big programs we're doing is, how do you move personalization to one-on-one personalization? How do you make every customer feel they have their own network, our network. Like their own network that's personalized for their needs. There own experience, their own plans. Their own recognition. So that's key. So today when you think about most companies do segmentation or personalization at the cluster level. So one of the biggest things is we're shifting now from systems of engagement, and systems of records. We're inserting systems of insights. A system of insight allows to build the DNA for every customer and will allow us to personalize the customer experience for every customer at the customer level based on all the data, kind of, we know about them, from the data they use with us, and will allow us to personalize their experience at every touch point. >> So what, how would that look like? What will a personalized customer experience at Verizon look like in the future going forward? What are some of your goals and aspirations? >> Imagine you're like a, you've bought every iPhone, since iPhone one through like iPhone ten, right? >> I can imagine that. >> So you're an iPhone enthusiast, right? So, when you come up on our website recommend, like the iPhone, the next iPhone say, the next iPhone is up, the next iPhone red is up or so. So we know more about you and your history and we recommend right accessories, we recommend and so we tell you, hey this stuff is coming. So you feel we're watching out for you. You're like we know, we know you. We know you better than anybody. So at any touch point when you come to us we kind of tell you what's the next thing for you. And then even when you don't know we, like from a network kind of performance from everything we proactively, kind of cater for you. That's a big one. The other one, how do you, when you want to talk to us, how do you get leverage technology like Chatbots and conversationally AVRs and stuff. And make sure you feel you're like, we know you. If you have a different accent, we recognize the accent, then you say, hey do you want to speak in that language? >> (laughs) >> So imagine the power of doing that. Versus today you have to do, like you have Spanish AVR, you have to have a, or have a Spanish kind of call center. Imagine through a IML and Chatbots and stuff, you can recognize all the stuff and personalize the experience. Today at Verizon, we are known of our network superiority. And we have great customer experience but we want to be known also for our experience the same way we are known for our network. And we believe that at Verizon, there is always a higher gear. So we all aspire for the higher gear and aspire our customers to feel they have a Verizon for every customer. >> So this, that's from the customer experience. And as you said, the goal is to have the customer feel that the company empathizes with them and really gets them. What about the workforce changes? I mean Annette was talking about the importance of change management and the cultural shift that these kinds of transformations entail. Have you come up against any challenges at Verizon in terms of this migration? >> Sure I would say, at the heart of our kind of transformation, there are four main pillars. The first pillar is, enabling all these modern technologies. This is like cloud, Cloud Native, API, AI, ML. And especially go back to cloud, the time of enabling cloud was very important to get everybody on board at beginning of the journey. So one of our biggest thing is to get like the security team on board, as early in the process as possible, and make sure security team is a development team, not just a kind of a controls team. So having an engineering team on the security side is a big one to kind of automate all this kind of, all the security controls we need in the cloud so we have the right guardrails and have everything automated. Another thing, same thing like with the other teams. Get them on board in the journey have an advisory kind of board with the other team and security team and legal teams and everybody is onboarding on the journey. So that's I'd say key and pay lots of dividends investment upfront but pays lots of dividends so you can move faster. It's like more of a slow down to speed up. So that's a big one. The second one is, technology is one thing, but you need the culture. So you need to have sustainable momentum in this kind of movement. So the proxy we wanted to have is like have AWS certifications. Because you need 10% believers to have momentum. So our proxy to believers is AWS certifications. So we put a program in place we call it: Verizon Cloud Train. And that train basically is like a 12-week, six sprints, and we help our teams prepare for their certification. So last year we did more than a thousand, we have more than 1800 people probably right now certified with AWS. >> That is incredible. >> At the same time, we set up a dojo's, which are like emergent centers. So we have like 40, 50 seats in different cities and with like five six coaches. So if you are a team who wants to come in and move your application to the cloud, we help you do it. If you want to decompartmentalize your application to microservices we help you. If you want to do ABI's, we help you. So we helped you build deep expertise into these technologies we are doing. So that is like, transforming the teams, and up scaling, I would call it up scaling the talent, is key. Hiring great talent in key rolls is also key. The third pillar is changing the way we work from, what you call a project based, to outcome based. And this beyond agile. Agile is an enabler for this, but how do you change the model where everything is outcome based? Where you have the business and the technology team working together to move an outcome. If I want to increase my kind of video-on-demand revenue per customer, everybody making all the changes, experimenting, and making sure that's a need, is moving. It's not like I did my code, I delivered my, I did my testing, I deployed my app. It's what's a business and what's a customer kind of expectation. And fourth one is, how do you establish internal kind of communities and get out of a like the thiefdoms and stuff. And get a culture of kind of sharing and cheering for others. So we have like Dev Ops days internally within the company, bring in external, internal speakers. We have internal kind of intersourcing for some piece of code. So you have to fire on all cylinders I would say. And get as many kind of parties included as early in the process. And have also an objective to have everything as code. And it's a journey, so you have to always keep on exercising new muscles and more muscles and the more muscles you exercise, the faster you can go. >> So Mahmoud, Annette already shared with us her key learnings from your experience and your journey. What would you say, I mean you're hear at AWS reInvent, it's not your first rodeo, you've been to this conference many times before. When you're talking with other CTO's, CIO's and they're saying, hey, so how's it going for you? What's your advice for a company that is really just starting this, this process? >> Sure, I would say the movement to the public cloud is not just a cost play. I mean, cost needs to be, efficiency needs to be there, but that shouldn't be the primary kind of objective. The primary objective should be speed and innovation. At the same time, deliver a cost. Lots of people say, oh do I, is the same, you can't compare it same-for-same. Because it's different. On prem you can do like A, B testing. In the cloud you can do A to Z testing for much cheaper. You don't need everything you have on prem. You can experiment, so think about it as accelerating the speed of innovation. That's the key one. And I said it before, but I'll say it again. It's like all about having the right kind of, from like a security perspective, people will argue, oh public cloud is insecure? I would argue, public cloud can be more secure than on prem because you have all the tools to kind of automatically, kind of protect and detect and recover. And you have more tooling to allow you to be more secure. It's having the right kind of guardrails and the right controls, right automation and right teams. So it's, you have to build muscle across all these fronts. And have them as a front as possible. >> Great, and great note to end on. Thank you so much Mahmoud and Annette. >> Thank you. >> I appreciate it. >> Very good. >> Been really fun having you on the show. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> We will have more >> Thanks, Ann. >> from theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Executive Summit, coming up in just a little bit. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from downtown San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering IBM chief data officer strategy summit 2018, brought to you by IBM. (playful music) >> Welcome back to the IBM chief data officer strategy summit in San Francisco. We're here at the Parc 55. My name is Dave Vellante, and you're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, #IBMCDO. Seth Dobrin is here. He's the chief data officer for IBM analytics. Seth, good to see you again. >> Good to see you again, Dave. >> Many time Cube alum; thanks for coming back on. Asim Tewary, Tewary? Tewary; sorry. >> Tewary, yes. >> Asim Tewary; I can't read my own writing. Head of data science and advanced analytics at Verizon, and from Jersey. Two east coast boys, three east coast boys. >> Three east coast boys. >> Yeah. >> Welcome, gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Asim, you guys had a panel earlier today. Let's start with you. What's your role? I mean, we talked you're the defacto chief data officer at Verizon. >> Yes, I'm responsible for all the data ingestion platform, big data, and the data science for Verizon, for wireless, wire line, and enterprise businesses. >> It's a relatively new role at Verizon? You were saying previously you were CDO at a financial services organization. Common that a financial service organization would have a chief data officer. How did the role come about at Verizon? Are you Verizon's first CDO or-- >> I was actually brought in to really pull together the analytics and data across the enterprise, because there was a realization that data only creates value when you're able to get it from all the difference sources. We had separate teams in the past. My role was to bring it all together, to have a common platform, common data science team to drive revenue across the businesses. >> Seth, this is a big challenge, obviously. We heard Caitlyn this morning, talking about the organizational challenges. You got data in silos. Inderpal and your team are basically, I call it dog-fooding. You're drinking your own champagne. >> Champagne-ing, yeah. >> Yeah, okay, but you have a similar challenge. You have big company, complex, a lot of data silos coming. Yeah, I mean, IBM is really, think of it as five companies, right? Any one of them would be a fortune 500 company in and of themselves. Even within each of those, there were silos, and then Inderpal trying to bring them across, you know, the data from across all of them is really challenging. Honestly, the technology part, the bringing it together is the easy part. It's the cultural change that goes along with it that's really, really hard, to get people to think about it as IBM's or Verizon's data, and not their data. That's really how you start getting value from it. >> That's a cultural challenge you face is, "Okay, I've got my data; I don't want to share." How do you address that? >> Absolutely. Governance and ownership of data, having clear roles and responsibilities, ensuring there's this culture where people realize that data is an asset of the firm. It is not your data or my data; it is firm's data, and the value you create for the business is from that data. It is a transformation. It's changing the people culture aspect, so there's a lot of education. You know, you have to be an evangelist. You wear multiple hats to show people the value, why they should do. Obviously, I had an advantage because coming in, Verizon management was completely sold to the idea that the data has to be managed as an enterprise asset. Business was ready and willing to own data as an enterprise asset, and so it was relatively easier. However, it was a journey to try to get everyone on the same page in terms of ensuring that it wasn't the siloed mentality. This was a enterprise asset that we need to manage together. >> A lot of organizations tell me that, first of all, you got to have top-down buy-in. Clearly, you had that, but a lot of the times I hear that the C-suite says, "Okay, we're going to do this," but the middle management is sort of, they got to PNL, they've got to make their plan, and it takes them longer to catch up. Did you face that challenge, and how do you ... How were you addressing it? >> Absolutely. What we had to do was really make sure that we were not trying to boil the ocean, that we were trying to show the values. We found champions. For example, finance, you know, was a good champion for us, where we used the data and analytics to really actually launch some very critical initiatives for the firm, asset-backed securities. For the first time, Verizon launched ABS, and we actually enabled that. That created the momentum, if you will, as to, "Okay, there's value in this." That then created the opportunity for all the other business to jump on and start leveraging data. Then we all are willing to help and be part of the journey. >> Seth, before you joined IBM, obviously the company was embarking on this cognitive journey. You know, Watson, the evolution of Watson, the kind of betting a lot on cognitive, but internally you must have said, "Well, if we're going to market this externally, "we'd better become a cognitive enterprise." One of the questions that came up on the panel was, "What is a cognitive enterprise?" You guys, have you defined it? Love to ask Asim the same question. >> Yeah, so I mean, a cognitive enterprise is really about an enterprise that uses data and analytics, and cognition to run their business, right? You can't just jump to being a cognitive enterprise, right? It's a journey or a ladder, right? Where you got to get that foundation data in order. Then you've got to start even being able to do basic analytics. Then you can start doing things like machine learning, and deep learning, and then you can get into cognition. It's not a, just jump to the top of the ladder, because there's just a lot of work that's required to do it. You can do that within a business unit. The whole company doesn't need to get there, and in fact, you'll see within a company, different part of the company will be at different stages. Kind of to Asim's point about partnering with finance, and that's my experience both at IBM and before I joined. You find a partner that's going to be a champion for you. You make them immensely successful, and everyone else will follow because of shame, because they don't want to be out-competed by their peers. >> So, similar definition of a cognitive enterprise? >> Absolutely. In fact, what I would say is cognitive is a spectrum, right? Where most companies are at the low end of that spectrum where using data for decision-making, but those are reports, BI reports, and stuff like that. As you evolve to become smarter and more AI machine learning, that's when you get into predictive, where you're using the data to predict what might happen based on prior historical information. Then that evolution goes all the way to being prescriptive, where you're not only looking back and being able to predict, but you're actually able to recommend action that you want to take. Obviously, with the human involvement, because governance is an important aspect to all of this, right? Completely agree that the cognitive is really covering the spectrum of prescriptive, predictive, and using data for all your decision making. >> This actually gets into a good point, right? I mean, I think Asim has implemented some deep learning models at Verizon, but you really need to think about what's the right technology or the right, you know, the right use case for that. There's some use cases where descriptive analytics is the right answer, right? There's no reason to apply machine learning or deep learning. You just need to put that in front of someone. Then there are use cases where you do want deep learning, either because the problem is so complex, or because the accuracy needs to be there. I go into a lot of companies to talk to senior executives, and they're like, "We want to do deep learning." You ask them what the use case is, and you're like, "Really, that's rules," right? It gets back to Occam's razor, right? The simplest solution is always the answer, is always the best answer. Really understanding from your perspective, having done this at a couple of companies now, kind of when do you know when to use deep learning versus machine learning, versus just basic statistics? >> How about that? >> Yeah. >> How do you parse that? >> Absolutely. You know, like anything else, it's very important to understand what problem you're trying to solve. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and deep learning might be one of those hammers. What we do is make sure that any problem that requires explain-ability, interpret-ability, you cannot use deep learning, because you cannot explain when you're using deep learning. It's a multi-layered neural network algorithm. You can't really explain why the outcome was what it was. For that, you have to use more simpler algorithms, like decision tree, like regression, classification. By the way, 70 to 80% of the problem that you have in the company, can be solved by those algorithms. You don't always use deep learning, but deep learning is a great use case algorithm to use when you're solving complex problems. For example, when you're looking at doing friction analysis as to customer journey path analysis, that tends to be very noisy. You know, you have billions of data points that you have to go through for an algorithm. That is, you know, good for deep learning, so we're using that today, but you know, those are a narrow set of use cases where it is required, so it's important to understand what problem you're trying to solve and where you want to use deep learning. >> To use deep learning, you need a lot of label data, right? >> Yes. >> And that's-- >> A lot of what? Label data? >> Label data. So, and that's often a hurdle to companies using deep learning, even when they have a legitimate deep learning use cases. Just the massive amount of label data you need for that use case. >> As well as scale, right? >> Yeah. >> The whole idea is that when you have massive amounts of data with a lot of different variables, you need deep learning to be able to make that decision. That means you've got to have scale and real time capability within the platform, that has the elasticity and compute, to be able to crunch all that data. >> Yeah. >> Initially, when we started on this journey, our infrastructure was not able to handle that. You know, we had a lot of failures, and so obviously we had to enhance our infrastructure to-- >> You spoke to Samit Gupta and Ed earlier, about, you know, GPUs, and flash storage, and the need for those types of things to do these complex, you know, deep learning problems. We struggled with that even inside of IBM when we first started building this platform as, how do we get the best performance of ingesting the data, getting it labeled, and putting it into these models, these deep learning models, and some of the instance we use that. >> Yeah, my takeaway is that infrastructure for AI has to be flexible, you got to be great granularity. It's got to not only be elastic, but it's got to be, sometimes we call it plastic. It's got to sometimes retain its form. >> Yes. >> Right? Then when you bring in some new unknown workload, you've got to be able to adjust it without ripping down the entire infrastructure. You have to purpose built a whole next set of infrastructure, which is kind of how we built IT over the years. >> Exactly. >> I think, Dave, too, When you and I first spoke four or five years ago, it was all about commodity hardware, right? It was going to Hadoop ecosystem, minimizing, you know, getting onto commodity hardware, and now you're seeing a shift away from commodity hardware, in some instances, toward specialized hardware, because you need it for these use cases. So we're kind of making that. We shifted to one extreme, and now we're kind of shifting, and I think we're going to get to a good equilibrium where it's a balance of commodity and specialized hardware for big data, as much as I hate that word, and advanced analytics. >> Well, yeah, even your cloud guys, all the big cloud guys, they used to, you know, five, six years ago, say, "Oh, it's all commodity stuff," and now it's a lot of custom, because they're solving problems that you can't solve with a commodity. I want to ask you guys about this notion of digital business. To us, the difference between a business and a digital business is how you use data. As you become a digital business, which is essentially what you're doing with cognitive and AI, historically, you may have organized around, I don't know, your network, and certain you've got human skills that are involved, and your customers. I mean, IBM in your case, it's your products, your services, your portfolio, your clients. Increasingly, you're organizing around your data, aren't you? Which brings back to cultural change, but what about the data model? I presume you're trying to get to a data model where the customer service, and the sales, and the marketing aren't separate entities. I don't have to deal with them when I talk to Verizon. I deal with just Verizon, right? That's not easy when the data's all inside. How are you dealing with that challenge? >> Customer is at the center of the business model. Our motto and out goal is to provide the best products to the customers, but even more important, provide the best experience. It is all about the customer, agnostic of the channel, which channel the customer is interacting with. The customer, for the customer, it's one Verizon. The way we are organizing our data platform is, first of all, breaking all the silos. You know, we need to have data from all interactions with the customer, that is all digital, that's coming through, and creating one unified model, essentially, that essentially teaches all the journeys, and all the information about the customer, their events, their behavior, their propensities, and stuff like that. Then that information, using algorithms, like predictive, prescriptive, and all of that, make it available in all channels of engagement. Essentially, you have common intelligence that is made available across all channels. Whether the customer goes to point of sale in a retail store, or calls a call center, talks to a rep, or is on the digital channel, is the same intelligence driving the experience. Whether a customer is trying to buy a phone, or has an issue with a service related aspect of it, and that's the key, which is centralized intelligence from common data lake, and then deliver a seamless experience across all channels for that customer-- >> Independent of where I bought that phone, for example, right? >> Exactly. Maintaining the context is critical. If you went to the store and you know, you're looking for a phone, and you know, you didn't find what you're looking for, you want to do some research, if you go to the digital channel, you should be able to have a seamless experience where we should know that you went, that you're looking for the phone, or you called care and you asked the agent about something. Having that context be transferred across channel and be available, so the customer feels that we know who the customer is, and provide them with a good experience, is the key. >> We have limited time, but I want to talk about skills. It's hard to come by; we talked about that. It's number five on Inderpal's sort of, list of things you've got to do as a CDO. Sometimes you can do MNA, by the weather company. You've got a lot of skills, but that's not always so practical. How have you been dealing with the skills gap? >> Look, skill is hard to find, data scientists are hard to find. The way we are envisioning our talent management is two things we need to take care of. One, we need solid big data engineers, because having a solid platform that has real trans-streaming capability is very critical. Second, data scientists, it's hard to get. However, our plan is to really take the domain experts, who really understand the business, who understand the business process and the data, and give them the tools, automation tools for data science, that essentially, you know, will put it in a box for them, in terms of which algorithm to use, and enable them to create more value. While we will continue to hire specialized data scientists who are going to work on much more of the complex problems, the skill will come from empowering and enabling the domain experts with data science capabilities that automates choosing model development and algorithm development. >> Presumably grooming people in house, right? >> Grooming people in house, and I actually break it down a little more granular. I even say there's data engineers, there's machine learning engineers, there's optimization engineers, then there's data journalists. They're the ones that tell the story. I think we were talking earlier, Asim, about you know, it's not just PhDs, right? You're not just looking for PhDs to fill these rolls anymore. You're looking for people with masters degrees, and even in some cases, bachelors degrees. With IBM's new collar job initiative, we're even bringing on some, what we call P-TECH students, which are five year high school students, and we're building a data science program for them. We're building apprenticeships, which is, you know, you've had a couple years of college, building a data science program, and people look at me like I'm crazy when I say that, but the bulk of the work of a data science program, of executing data science, is not implementing machine learning models. It's engineering features, it's cleaning data. With basic Python skills, this is something that you can very easily teach these people to do, and then under the supervision of a principal data scientist or someone with a PhD or a masters degree, they can start learning how to implement models, but they can start contributing right away with just some basic Python skills. >> Then five, seven years in, they're-- >> Yeah. >> domain experts. All right, guys, got to jump, but thanks very much, Asim, for coming on and sharing your story. Seth, always a pleasure. >> Yeah, good to see you again, Dave. >> All right. >> Thank you, Dave. >> You're welcome. Keep it right there, buddy. >> Thanks. >> We'll be back with our next guest. This is The Cube, live from IBM CDO strategy summit in San Francisco. We'll be right back. (playful music) (phone dialing)

(computer mouse clicking) >> Hi, Lisa Martin on the ground with The Cube at Google for the sixth annual CloudNOW Top Women in Cloud Awards and we're very excited to be joined by one of the award winners, Beth Cohen. You are with Verizon, congratulations on the award, Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you, yes. >> So tell me what you do for Verizon. >> So what I do for Verizon is I come up with new products, and we've been focusing over the last few years on software defined networking, which is a brand new, cutting edge area that not only Verizon is new to but also the entire world is new to. So what we're doing is we're taking cloud concepts and applying them to network services and I'm actually involved, in addition to that, in a new initiative called edge computing. So there's going to be white paper coming out shortly on that and that all came out of my work at Verizon on the products, the software defined networking products I've been working on. >> Wow, so you are a pioneer. We'll get to more of that a little bit later but what are some of the things that excite you about being on the leading edge of software defined networking and edge computing? >> Well, what's really exciting to me is working with the customers and getting them excited about this new technology and how it's really changing the world. And they're all excited about it because they understand that the future is here and that they need to embrace it. >> So one of the things that I found was really interesting when I was doing some research on you is you've worked with several technology companies to help them change their product strategy direction, taking advantage of the cloud. So I mentioned the work pioneer earlier but you're clearly influential. How have you been able to work with companies of presumably diverse cultures to help them change direction? >> So that's an interesting question. The company has to be ready for it and some companies are not, actually. But the companies, fortunately I've had the opportunity to work with some companies that were ready for either whether they recognized, in one case, their market was disappearing, literally, as their customers were leaving and they didn't have any new customers and they recognized that they needed to take a new direction to survive. And what they did is they had some really unique, interesting technology around high availability and survivability, which is something that companies really need but theirs was a hardware based solution and what I helped them do is to really come up with a new way of looking at it that was a software based solution that they could apply to classrooms. >> Wow, so tell me about the influence there. What's that process like to show them, like you were saying, some of them, customers are drying up, obviously this is an impetus for change, what were some of the obstacles that you helped them identify and overcome to identify, "This is why we have to shift direction, "this is going to be much more beneficial?" >> So, they obviously were in great pain, as their balance sheet was drifting down but they had to realize that their skill sets, that they had some people that had some great skill sets but they had to really think differently about what they were doing. So one of the things I did is help them understand the new technologies that they were going to be adopting. So I did some training, worked out some training with them and gave them a two day training session on a cloud technology and what it was about and how it could apply to them. I also had to understand what they were doing and their secret sauce so that I could really extend that and say, "Okay, your job's not going to go away "but you really need to add some additional skills "to be successful in this new direction." >> What are some of the fears, technology fears, that you've heard as, not just an influencer helping companies to make the right directional changes, but also even at your current career at Verizon? What are some of the things that people are afraid of regarding technology that you can help them see, "Ah, it's not so bad?" (laughing) >> So, you know, Verizon's a telecom and telecom's, what I like to say to people is, "What we're selling is reliability, right, "so every time you make that cell phone call, "it goes through, right?" And Verizon prides itself on that and every time you have that connection, it works every time. Well, there's a lot of technology and a lot of operations and a lot of support services that go on behind the scenes to make that actually happen. And the general public's probably just not aware of that. But the people inside the company are very afraid to get away from, "Well, we've always done this and we have to continue doing "this because we do have that five nines reliability that we "have to deliver," and so it's very difficult to say, "Oh, well we'll do it differently now." So, there has to be a lot of education around, and gaining the trust that yes, this new technology can be used and can deliver those five nine reliability statistics and SLA's that you're used to delivering. >> Do you think it's more of a fear of maybe cultural change than it is actual technology? >> I'd say it's probably a combination of both. Verizon's a technology company so obviously we embrace technology and we have a lot of really smart people working for the company who love technology. But we also, we want to service our customers and we don't want to get that angry phone call about, "The network's down." So, there's kind of a combination to make sure that we deliver to our customers what they expect. >> Exactly. So I mentioned the word pioneer earlier, you have a really interesting career path that I think is very inspirational. In the last couple minutes that we have here, share with us about, how did you get from what you studied in school to being a leader in software defined networking at Verizon? >> Wow, so I studied architecture, as in building architecture, I went to Rhode Island School of Design, which is completely, totally opposite. Although, I do tell people, I learned a whole lot about creativity and critical thinking, which is very valuable skills to apply to being a pioneer because when you're in cutting edge, what I spend most of my time doing is connecting the dots and saying, "Oh, this technology can be applied here," or, "These two technologies can work together, "have you ever thought of that?" "Oh wow, never." (laughing) So that's why I end up spending my career being on the cutting edge of things. >> I love that. You bring up a great point that is, in a lot of fields, no matter what you study, there are great lessons to be learned from, for example, applying the creativity and technology, there's a great value there and so I think that's very inspiring to others who might be interested in different things and know that there's a lot of cross pollination. Last question-- >> I have one more comment about that. >> Oh, please go for it. >> There's no such thing as wasted time, everything I've done over the years has always ended up being a learning experience for me. I spent two years being a cook at a fancy French restaurant in Phillidelphia and that was a learning experience too. (laughing) >> And I love that and you're absolutely right, all these experiences build one on the other on the other and I agree with you that, and I hope a lot of people feel the same, that there isn't a waste of time, it's not a wrong step, it's something that you can learn from and they'll be a better person, a better worker, a better boss for it. >> And a mean cook. >> Exactly, I got to get some recipes from you. So last question, the CloudNOW Top Women in Cloud award, really quickly, how did you find out about that and what does this award mean to you? >> I'm very excited about it. I have to admit, it was a big surprise for me. Somebody nominated me and they sent me a note on LinkedIn and I had completely forgotten about it and then I get this email and so I was like just stunned so I'm very excited about it. >> And it seems, like I've said, I've used the word pioneer a number of times, and you're very inspiring and I'm sure that the people that bestowed the award are very thrilled to have you in the class as this is the sixth year. >> Yes. >> Well Beth, thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE and sharing your story and again, congratulations on the award. >> Thank you again. >> I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with The Cube at Google, thanks so much for watching. Bye for now. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from New York City. It's theCUBE. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify, and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. Live here with Cube coverage in New York City, our favorite place to be when we've got all the action going on. CyberConnect 2017 is an inaugural event where industry, government comes together to solve the crisis of our generation. That's cybersecurity. I'm John Furrier, co-host theCube My partner Dave Vellante here. Our next guest is Chris Novak, VTRAC Global Director, Threat Research Advisory Center at Verizon. Welcome to theCube, great to have you. >> Thanks, pleasure to be here. >> So you do all the homework. You've got the forensic data. You're the one looks at the threats. You're the burning bush of cyber intelligence. What's happening? Tell us what's the threats? >> Everything. So, it's interesting because I always find what I do to be wildly exciting just because it's always changing, right? Everything we see. It's kind of' like being a cop. Ultimately you're investigating unknowns all the time, trying to figure out how they happen, why they happen, who they happen to, but more importantly than that, how do you get ahead of it to prevent being the next one, or prevent it happening to others? And that's really the thrust of what we're out to do. >> Talk about the challenges 'cause General Keith Alexander was on stage talking about how he compared it to an airline crashing, where they come in looking for the black box, and it's worse because you don't even know what happened, who was involved. >> Chris: That's right. >> The notion of anonymous, public domain software is causing all kinds of democratization, good and bad, bad being actors that we don't even know attacking us. What is the landscape of how you identify what's going on? >> Yeah, and it gets even more challenging than that because I like that analogy, and I'd say I'd almost take it one step further and say the analogy of the airline and looking for the black box. In many cases when we go in to do an investigation, we're just hoping that there was a black box to look at to begin with. In many cases, we get there and there was no information, and we're trying to take all the pieces and put it together of what's left. And ultimately what we see is, it keeps evolving, right? It keeps getting harder, and the threat actors keep getting better. What I always tell folks is, while many of us all have to play by a set of rules, or regulations, or compliance obligations, the threat actors don't have to do any of that. They're free to do whatever works for them, and repeat it over and over again, and, for them, it's a business. >> So Dave and I were talking earlier. I want to get your reaction to this. About the importance of Stuxnet. Ars Technica has a report coming out that certificate authorities were compromised well before Stuxnet. But Stuxnet is the Pearl Harbor, cyber Pearl Harbor, as a point in time. So much has happened since then. So from that kind of Pearl Harbor moment of the wakening of, oh my God, to today, what's the landscape look like? How important was the Stuxnet to that point in time now, and how has it evolved? What's changed? >> Sure, and I think a couple of key things that come out of that. One is, you start to see more and more attribution to government-related attacks. Some are actively sponsored and known. Some are, we're just diggin' through the details and the weeds to try and figure out who's actually behind it and attribution may never actually take place. >> Or it could not be real 'cause they want to blame their enemy so that they get attacked. >> Well, and that's the either beauty or downside of cyber is that you can conduct it in a vacuum, in an anonymous fashion. So, in many respects, you can conduct an attack remotely and try to give it all the hallmarks of someone else, making it further difficult to attribute it. >> And the tools are now available too, so like, I hear reports that states are sponsoring, or releasing in the public domain, awesome hacks, like Stuxnet of the future, which some say was released and then got out of control by accident. >> And that's always something you have to be concerned about is the fact that once this stuff gets out there, even if you only intended to use this malware or attack vector once. Once you use it on that victim, there is a potential that that spreads. >> But you guys have been doing this study for the last decade. >> Correct. >> So you've seen the shift from sort of hacktivist to nation-sponsored malware. What has the research shown you over the last decade as that shift has occurred? >> Yeah, it's interesting because you look at it and a lot of what we still see today are financially-motivated and interestingly enough, opportunistic, low-hanging fruit kind of attacks. About 70 to 80% fall in that category, and about 20 to 25, depending on the year, are nation state, but that keeps growing each year. And, I think a lot of it is. >> John: What the nation state piece? >> The nation state piece. But it's still the smaller piece of the pie or the graph, whatever you're looking at, because, at the end of the day >> It's cash. >> It's cash. >> They want the cash. >> And so much of what we find when you look back at the old days of breaches where the majority of them were, they weren't even really breaches of theft of data, it was someone. >> Confetti, graffiti. >> I should have actually asked that question differently because it's really went from hacktivist to criminals. >> Chris: Correct. >> To nation states and you're saying the dominant now is criminal activity. >> That's correct. Yeah, we find the large piece of it about more than half is organized crime. It comes down to, look, you can steal money in a variety of different ways. This is a way to do it safely from thousand miles away >> And no one knows who you are. >> on the other end of a keyboard. >> So it's annoyance. >> And by the way, no consequence. Who's going to? >> Virtually, yeah. >> What court do you go to? >> So its annoyance is the hacktivist. Okay, we can kind of' live with that. It's cash and it's threats to critical infrastructure. >> And we see kind of a graduation there where you see the activists realize, I can this and make a point, but a point doesn't necessarily make me money, or I can do this for an organized crime group and make millions of dollars. Hmmmm. >> And, by the way, to your point which we were just teasing out, Dave. There is zero downside, because if you get caught, what happens? >> Yeah. >> If you get caught. >> If you get caught, yeah. And then what happens if you get caught? >> There's no jurisdiction. >> You don't make money. >> No, no, there's no courts. >> It's very hard to prosecute. >> There's actually no process for that. >> So, we heard this morning that WannaCry and other examples of malware really weren't about malware. I mean, sorry, they really weren't about ransomware, they were about sending a message, or politics. So, you're obviously seeing more of that in your research. >> Chris: Exactly right. >> Fake news, and I wonder if you could comment. >> Absolutely, yeah. So, in fact, it was interesting because some of those had continued to come out. Everyone kept thinking that it was all ransomware, and then as we studied it further we found some of these, they never had the intention of collecting a ransom, or giving the data back. It was all about making a political point, and you now have this kind of injection of politics into something that was really, traditionally, just organized crime, smash and grab, make cash. Now politics is feeding into that, going, wait, we can affect and influence and all sorts of things in ways people have never imagined and people don't even know it's going on. >> So you must be seeing a dramatic improvement in the quality, hate to say this, but the quality of malware, over the last decade. Less bugs, less errors, >> More sophisticated. >> More insidious, sophisticated. >> That's exactly right >> Vectors. >> We do see that continuing to improve and for them, like I always tell folks, they operate it like a business. You'll have some of these groups where they'll have different divisions or departments. People will have clearly-defined roles and responsibilities of what they're supposed to be doing in generating that malware, troubleshooting it, and they'll even reward people for how well it works. >> Chris, I'd like to get your personal opinion. If you could put your Verizon hat on too, I will take any opinions that you have. How do we solve this? 'Cause this event here. We like this inaugural event because it's the first industry event that talks about the big picture, the holistic view, the 20-mile stare, if you want to' say it that way. Not the Black Hat, which has its own conference, and there should be more of that. This is industry coming together. Governments now intersecting here. What's your opinion on how this gets solved. We heard community, shared data, that's been going around. What do you think? >> So, that's probably the hardest question I get asked, and, honestly, I think it's because there's not really a simple answer to it, right? It's like saying, how do we stop crime? We don't. It's not going to be possible. It's a matter of, how do we put up better defenses? And also, important, how do we put up better detection, so that we can see things and, potentially, stop them sooner before they blow up into these big, multi-hundred-million record, or billion record breaches? So, one of the biggest things that I advocate is awareness. We also have to do things like pro-active threat hunting, right? If you're not out there. It's kind of like having security guards, right? You go through any office and you've got security guards walking the halls, sitting in the lobby, looking for things that are unusual. If we're not out there in the cyber realm looking for unusual things, you can't expect that you're going to see them until they've reached a certain blow-up point. >> Or are they cloaked? Completely cloaked. You can't see 'em. >> That's also true. >> Security guards are looking for someone they can't see. >> That's true. >> Chris, thanks so much for coming here and sharing the opinion. Follow the research. And your report's public, or? >> Yes, the reports are all available on the VerizonEnterprise.com website. >> Okay, VerizonEnterprise.com. Check it out. These reports are a treasure trove of information. Always getting it out. Thanks for your perspective. Lookin' for more trends. Chris Novak here inside theCube here in New York City's live coverage of CyberConnect 2017. I'm John with Dave Vallente. We're back with more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Manhattan, it's the Cube, covering AWS Summit, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> And you are watching the Cube. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls. We're at the Javits Center, here, Midtown Manhattan, for the AWS Summit. We're continuing our coverage here live on the Cube. We'll broadcast outlet of the silicon angle tv platform, and we're joined now by Anuj Dutia, who is Senior Manager of Product and New Business at Verizon. Anuj, it's good to see you today, sir. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> You bet, absolutely. Now, you have a partnership in the works with AWS. I know you had an announcement today, of sorts. Also, adding a little more flavor to that, I want you to tell us a little bit about that announcement, and the significance of that. >> Yeah, absolutely. We're really observing the industry's, our customers are the biggest, Fortune 500 customer's enterprises, they're moving their vote close to AWS. So, once they move their vote close to AWS, they want us to connect to their applications, our networks to connect to their applications in a seamless way. They want to make sure that the end user experience, the application experience, when the application's under AWS, is seamless. So, what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure we instantiate the workshop appliances in AWS, so that we're able to give them internet connectivity. So, we have a service offer, which is across the platforms. You know, we have our private cloud, we have AWS, we have the end CPE devices. For our customers, they want to have hybrid environment. They want to make sure that they are able to connect with each of these business applications with the best user experience. So, that's what we are enabling them to do with this service. >> I'm wondering if you could help clarify for us, because those of us that have watched a while, I mean, I remember when Verizon bought Terremark recently, I know you're still working through some of the details, but people still come to me and say oh, you're talking to Verizon, I hear they're selling off all their data centers. So, of course, that's kind of the headlines when you dig in to what you were talking about, the hybrid solutions, lots of partners. What is the role of cloud in Verizon, and what are some of those important solutions you're putting together? >> Sure, so we have our own offering, you know, which is the hosted network services. It's an open stack, base back form that we have around the world, but we're not in the business of, we want the customers to be connected, so we're in the business of networks. So, if our customers are moving on to a public cloud, or a private cloud, or their own data centers, we want to enable them to have that internet connectivity, and make sure they're able to take advantage of the application that we're routing, as well as the transport diversity. You know, we have a product called Secure Cloud Interconnect, or Direct Connect in AWS terms, which is one of the transports that will be used their high priority applications, and internet for another one. So, basically, we want to make sure we are able to give them the advantage of the through transports, as well as enabling them to have the best experience. So, regardless of what deployment they have, to your question, we want to make sure we are their partners in enabling them to do that. >> Yeah, the open stack solution, I mean, that's really building NFV, so what you care about is delivering services to the end user, correct? >> Correct, correct. So, we do have a concept of white boxes, or genetic platforms on the CP side. So, if I'm an enterprise with 5000 stores, as an example. I want to deploy these lightweight white boxes around the country, and then haul all the traffic to my private data center, to AWS, to other cloud providers. We will be able to do that, and with this partnership, we will be able to get them closer to their applications within AWS, that's the whole plan of action. >> Yeah, all of the carriers, including Verizon, have lots of edge deployments, that's been one of the hottest topics. Does that fit in with what you're doing with Amazon? Maybe you can, you know, what does Edge mean to kind of your business unit, your customers? What's important there? >> Absolutely, absolutely. As far as Edge is concerned, right? There is a thick Edge, and there is a thin Edge. When you say a thick Edge, you want to have all the applications, network applications, routing, firewall, you name it, everything to be sitting in the Edge. If I'm a bank, I may need that, but if I'm a retailer, I may not. I may say, no, I want to have my security applications in the cloud. The cloud could be our private cloud, it could be customers' cloud, or it could be AWS. We will enable to connect those Edge devices, the thicker version, or thinner version, to each of these cloud locations, so that it's a seamless connectivity for the enterprises. So, our strength is in the virtualization, and in the network connectivity. But all focused on the network. That's our whole use case, and we want to make sure if a customer walks in to our door with these different hybrid deployments, we're able to support them without any exceptions. >> We talked a lot so far about what you do, or the goals or the mission that you have, put it on the other side of the fence, from a customer expectation, and from a customer demand. How has that changed? >> That's a good question. So, what we've seen is our customers have a lot of options. We are not in the business of telling them where their applications should reside, where their business applications should reside. Now, if, as an organization, if they've decided to move their critical applications to AWS, or have them in their private data centers, so they are coming to us, customers are coming to us and telling us, we want, what is our business goal? Our business goal is to have, when my employee tries to reach my HR application, it should be seamless. It should not matter whether I host it in my data center, yours, AWS, or on the Edge. They don't care, they want to have access to those four top applications, or 40 top applications all the time. So, we've seen customers coming in and saying, and telling us, we're not asking you where to host the business apps, we have already made a decision, we are going to host it in these four clouds. One of them definitely being AWS. And we're like, okay, we will enable you, you just tell us what kind of connectivity you guys need, where do you want to host it, and with AWS being their key data center for hosting their business applications, now we have an automated, orchestrated way. So, you have your 5000 devices, with a click of a button, we'll instantiate something on AWS for you. That way, you're able to connect to all of your business applications seamlessly. So, with the demand that, going back to your question, the demand that we're seeing is hey, we want to have a variety of deployment models, we don't want to be locked down, we don't want to spend a whole lot on our data centers, we like the AWS solution, so we're going to have our business apps hosted at AWS, but at the same time, we want to make sure everything is connected for our users, and there is no latency that they experience. Customers are still having a lot of challenges about kind of getting their arms around this whole multi cloud environment, and networking a lot of times is kind of networking security and management sit at kind of the top of the challenges there. How would you rate how we're doing as an industry, how have we moved the ball forward, and what do we still need to do, to be able to make this seamless, manageable, much easier going forward? >> It's a great question. We come across these customers all the time, right? They see a bunch of PowerPoint presentations and advertisements, in all the different forms, and they think that they think that they're able to do that all by themselves, and have the cost efficiency. The key challenge is the key know how, and connecting it with the whole end to end network, as well as applications. So, what we bring to the table is exactly that. We partner with AWS and other cloud providers, but AWS being the biggest one, we try to make sure we are, get them the fully orchestrated solution. So, our whole solution is we're enabling, in this service, right, we're enabling Cisco and Viptela solutions on AWS. So, our whole value prop with them is you place an order with Verizon, we take care of making sure you're connected to AWS, seamlessly, with the appliance of your choice, which in this case happens to be Cisco, Viptela solutions, and the reliable network from Verizon, but completely automated and orchestrated. What we've been observing is customers go down the DIY path, and that's absolutely fair, sometimes they succeed, but most often they come back and say I don't know how to make it work end to end. I'm able to do this little piece part, have done my dev opps here, so it works, but when I move my production load, I don't know what to do. And, that's the value of this partnership, that we're looking to provide that seamless experience to our customers. >> And also, we've been talking a lot about enterprise, but that market is mostly small and midsize. I mean, which one do you think sells the wind in it's sails right now? I mean, or is it apples and oranges, because they have different concerns, different levels and different options? >> That's an interesting question. They are apples and oranges, at least in my opinion, and I'll tell you why. Because the needs for the top Fortune 500, Fortune 1000 companies, is very different from a dentist's office or a lawyer's office. But, there is a middle line. The middle line is, what if I'm a coffee shop with 8000 stores? Am I on this side, or that side? Because, each of these 8000 stores are like small businesses, if you will, but as a company I'm a tier one, so I have my own needs from a corporate network standpoint. So, what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure we take advantage of our partnership with AWS, where we are saying we're able to enable you if you are moving your production workloads anyway. But, if that's something you want to scale, then probably you've got to have a hybrid deployment and we make that happen for you. But, to your question, right? I do think they're apples and oranges, because their needs are very different. The need for the application availability for an enterprise, but a big tier one enterprise, is way higher than, say a dentist's office. If Outlook 365, Office 365 doesn't work for a dentist office for an hour, who cares? But, if it doesn't work for a big. >> Just don't let your dentist hear you say that. Be careful. >> All right. >> Everybody buy your dentist, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> All right, Anuj, thanks for being with us. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> We appreciate the time. >> Thank you. >> Good luck down the road. >> Thanks >> Anuj Dutia from Verizon joining us here on the Cube. We continue live from New York City. AWS Summit. Back in a bit.

>> Narrator: Live from San Jose in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the CUBE covering DataWorks Summit 2017 brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Hey, welcome back to the CUBE live from the DataWorks Summit day 2. We've been here for a day and a half talking with fantastic leaders and innovators, learning a lot about what's happening in the world of big data, the convergence with Internet of Things Machine Learning, artificial intelligence, I could go on and on. I'm Lisa Martin, my co-host is George Gilbert and we are joined by a couple of guys, one is a Cube alumni, Itamar Ankorion, CMO of Attunity, Welcome back to the Cube. >> Thank you very much, good to be here, thank you Lisa and George. >> Lisa: Great to have you. >> And Arvind Rajagopalan, the Director of Technology Services for Verizon, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> So we were chatting before we went on, and Verizon, you're actually going to be presenting tomorrow, at the DataWorks summit, tell us about building... the journey that Verizon has been on building a Data Lake. >> Oh, Verizon is over the last 20 years, has been a large corporation, made up of a lot of different acquisitions and mergers, and that's how it was formed in 20 years back, and as we've gone through the journey of the mergers and the acquisitions over the years, we had data from different companies come together and form a lot of different data silos. So the reason we kind of started looking at this, is when our CFO started asking questions around... Being able to answer One Verizon questions, it's as simple as having Days Payable, or Working Capital Analysis across all the lines of businesses. And since we have a three-major-ERP footprint, it is extremely hard to get that data out, and there was a lot of manual data prep activities that was going into bringing together those One Verizon views. So that's really what was the catalyst to get the journey started for us. >> And it was driven by your CFO, you said? >> Arvind: That's right. >> Ah, very interesting, okay. So what are some of the things that people are going to hear tomorrow from your breakout session? >> Arvind: I'm sorry, say that again? >> Sorry, what are some of the things that the people, the attendees from your breakout session, are going to learn about the steps and the journey? >> So I'm going to primarily be talking about the challenges that we ran into, and share some around that, and also talk about some of the factors, such as the catalysts and what drew us to sort of moving in that direction, as well as getting to some architectural components, from high-level standpoint, talk about certain partners that we work with, the choices we made from an architecture perspective and the tools, as well as to kind of close the loop on, user adoption and what users are seeing in terms of business value, as we start centralizing all of the data at Verizon from a backoff as Finance and Supply Chains standpoint. So that's kind of what I'm looking at talking tomorrow. >> Arvind, it's interesting to hear you talk about sort of collecting data from essentially backoff as operational systems in a Data Lake. Were there... I assume that the state is sort of more refined and easily structured than the typical stories we hear about Data Lakes. Were there challenges in making it available for exploration and visualization, or were all the early-use cases really just Production Reporting? >> So standard reporting across the ERP systems is very mature and those capabilities are there, but then you look at across-ERP systems and we have three major ERP systems for each of the lines of businesses, when you want to look at combining all of the data, it's very hard, and to add to that, you pointed on self-service discovery, and visualization across all three datas, that's even more challenging, because it takes a lot of heavy lift, to normalize all of the data and bring it into one centralized platform, and we started off the journey with Oracle, and then we had SAP HANA, we were trying to bring all the data together, but then we were looking at systems in our non-SAP ERP systems and bringing that data into a SAP-kind of footprint, one, the cost was tremendously high, also there was a lot of heavy lift and challenges in terms of manually having to normalize the data and bring it into the same kind of data models. And even after all of that was done, it was not very self-service oriented for our users and Finance and Supply Chain. >> Let me drill into two of those things. So it sounds like the ETL process of converting it into a consumable format was very complex, and then it sounds like also, the discoverability, like where a tool, perhaps like Elation, might help, which is very, very immature right now, or maybe not immature, it's still young. Is that what was missing, or why was the ETL process so much more heavyweight than with a traditional data warehouse? >> The ETL processes, there's a lot of heavy lifting there involved, because of the proprietary data structures of the ERP systems, especially SAP is... The data structures and how the data is used across clustered and pool tables, is very proprietary. And on top of that, bringing the data formats and structures from a PeopleSoft ERP system which are supporting different lines of businesses, so there are a lot of customization that's gone into place, there are specific things that we use in the ERPs, in terms of the modules and how the processes are modeled in each of the lines of businesses, complicates things a lot. And then you try and bring all these three different ERPs, and the nuances that they have over the years, try and bring them together, it actually makes it very complex. >> So tell us then, help us understand, how the Data Lake made that easier. Was it because you didn't have to do all the refinement before it got there. And tell us how Attunity helped make that possible. >> Oh absolutely, so I think that's one of the big things, why we picked the Hortonworks as one of our key partners in terms of buidling out the Data Lake, it just came on greed, you aren't necessarily worried about doing a whole lot of ETL before you bring the data in, and it also provides with the tools and the technologies from a lot other partners. We have a lot of maturity now, better provided self-service discovery capabilities for ad hoc analysis and reporting. So this is helpful to the users because now they don't have to wait for prolonged IT development cycles to model the data, do the ETL and build reports for the to consume, which sometimes could take weeks and months. Now in a matter of days, they're able to see the data they're looking for and they're able to start the analysis, and once they start the analysis and the data is accessible, it's a matter of minutes and seconds looking at the different tools, how they want to look at it, how they want to model it, so it's actually being a huge value from the perspective of the users and what they're looking to do. >> Speaking of value, one of the things that was kind of thematic yesterday, we see enterprises are now embracing big data, they're embracing Hadoop, it's got to coexist within our ecosystem, and it's got to inter-operate, but just putting data in a Data Lake or Hadoop, that's not the value there, it's being able to analyze that data in motion, at rest, structured, unstructured, and start being able to glean or take actionable insights. From your CFO's perspective, where are you know of answering some of the questions that he or she had, from an insights perspective, with the Data Lake that you have in place? >> Yeah, before I address that, I wanted to quickly touch upon and wrap up George's question, if you don't mind. Because one of the key challenges, and I do talk about how Attunity helped. I was just about to answer the question before we moved on, so I just want to close the loop on that a little bit. So in terms of bringing the data in, the data acquisition or ingestion is key aspect of it, and again, looking at the proprietary data structures from the ERP systems is very complex, and involves a multi-step process to bring the data into a strange environment, and be able to put it in the swamp bring it into the Lake. And what Attunity has been able to help us with is, it has the intelligence to look at and understand the proprietary data structures of the ERPs, and it is able to bring all the data from the ERP source systems directly into Hadoop, without any stops, or staging data bases along the way. So it's been a huge value from that standpoint, I'll get into more details around that. And to answer your question, around how it's helping from a CFO standpoint, and the users in Finance, as I said, now all the data is available in one place, so it's very easy for them to consume the data, and be able to do ad hoc analysis. So if somebody's looking to, like I said earlier, want to look at and calculate base table, as an example, or they want to look at working capital, we are actually moving data using Attunity, CDC replicate product, we're getting data in real-time, into the Data Lake. So now they're able to turn things around, and do that kind of analysis in a matter of hours, versus overnight or in a matter of days, which was the previous environment. >> And that was kind of one of the things this morning, is it's really about speed, right? It's how fast can you move and it sounds like together with Attunity, Verizon is really not only making things simpler, as you talked about in this kind of model that you have, with different ERP systems, but you're also really able to get information into the right hands much, much faster. >> Absolutely, that's the beauty of the near real-time, and the CDC architecture, we're able to get data in, very easily and quickly, and Attunity also provides a lot of visibility as the data is in flight, we're able to see what's happening in the source system, how many packets are flowing through, and to a point, my developers are so excited to work with a product, because they don't have to worry about the changes happening in the source systems in terms of DDL and those changes are automatically understood by the product and pushed to the destination of Hadoop. So it's been a game-changer, because we have not had any downtime, because when there are things changing on the source system side, historically we had to take downtime, to change those configurations and the scripts, and publish it across environments, so that's been huge from that standpoint as well. >> Absolutely. >> Itamar, maybe, help us understand where Attunity can... It sounds like there's greatly reduced latency in the pipeline between the operational systems and the analytic system, but it also sounds like you still need to essentially reformat the data, so that it's consumable. So it sounds like there's an ETL pipeline that's just much, much faster, but at the same time, when it's like, replicate, it sounds like that goes without transformations. So help us sort of understand that nuance. >> Yeah, that's a great question, George. And indeed in the past few years, customers have been focused predominantly on getting the data to the Lake. I actually think it's one of the changes in the fame, we're hearing here in the show and the last few months is, how do we move to start using the data, the great applications on the data. So we're kind of moving to the next step, in the last few years we focused a lot on innovating and creating the solutions that facilitate and accelerate the process of getting data to the Lake, from a large scope of systems, including complex ones like SAP, and also making the process of doing that easier, providing real-time data that can both feed streaming architectures as well as batch ones. So once we got that covered, to your question, is what happens next, and one of the things we found, I think Verizon is also looking at it now and are being concomitant later. What we're seeing is, when you bring data in, and you want to adopt the streaming, or a continuous incremental type of data ingestion process, you're inherently building an architecture that takes what was originally a database, but you're kind of, in a sense, breaking it apart to partitions, as you're loading it over time. So when you land the data, and Arvind was referring to a swamp, or some customers refer to it as a landing zone, you bring the data into your Lake environment, but at the first stage that data is not structured, to your point, George, in a manner that's easily consumable. Alright, so the next step is, how do we facilitate the next step of the process, which today is still very manual-driven, has custom development and dealing with complex structures. So we actually are very excited, we've introduced, in the show here, we announced a new product by Attunity, Compose for Hive, which extends our Data Lake solutions, and what Compose of Hive is exactly designed to do, is address part of the problem you just described, where's when the data comes in and is partitioned, what Compose for Hive does, is it reassembles these partitions, and it then creates analytic-ready data sets, back in Hive, so it can create operational data stores, it can create historical data stores, so then the data becomes formatted, in a matter that's more easily accessible for users, who want to use analytic tools, VI-tools, Tableau, Qlik, any type of tool that can easily access a database. >> Would there be, as a next step, whether led by Verizon's requirements or Attunity's anticipation of broader customer requirements, something where, there's a, if not near real-time, but a very low latency landing and transformation, so that data that is time-sensitive can join the historical data. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So what we've done, is focus on real-time availability of data. So when we feed the data into the Data Lake, we fit it into ways, one is directly into Hive, but we also go through a streaming architecture, like Kafka, in the case of Hortonworks, can also fit also very well into HDF. So then the next step in the process, is producing those analytic data sets, or data source, out of it, which we enable, and what we do is design it together with our partners, with our inner customers. So again when we work on Replicate, then we worked on Compose, we worked very close with Fortune companies trying to deal with these challenges, so we can design a product. In the case of Compose for Hive for example, we have done a lot of collaboration, at a product engineering level, with Hortonworks, to leverage the latest and greatest in Hive 2.2, Hive LLAP, to be able to push down transformations, so those can be done faster, including real-time, so those datasets can be updated on a frequent basis. >> You talked about kind of customer requirements, either those specific or not, obviously talking to telecommunications company, are you seeing, Itamar, from Attunity's perspective, more of this need to... Alright, the data's in the Lake, or first it comes to the swamp, now it's in the Lake, to start partitioning it, are you seeing this need driven in specific industries, or is this really pretty horizontal? >> That's a good question and this is definitely a horizontal need, it's part of the infrastructure needs, so Verizon is a great customer, and we even worked similarly in telecommunications, we've been working with other customers in other industries, from manufacturing, to retail, to health care, to automotive and others, and in all of those cases it's on a foundation level, it's very similar architectural challenges. You need to ingest the data, you want to do it fast, you want to do it incrementally or continuously, even if you're loading directly into Hadoop. Naturally, when you're loading the data through a Kafka, or streaming architecture, it's a continuous fashon, and then you partition the data. So the partitioning of the data is kind of inherent to the architecture, and then you need to help deal with the data, for the next step in the process. And we're doing it both with Compose for Hive, but also for customers using streaming architectures like Kafka, we provide the mechanisms, from supporting or facilitating things like schema unpollution, and schema decoding, to be able to facilitate the downstream process of processing those partitions of data, so we can make the data available, that works both for analytics and streaming analytics, as well as for scenarios like microservices, where the way in which you partition the data or deliver the data, allows each microservice to pick up on the data it needs, from the relevant partition. >> Well guys, this has been a really informative conversation. Congratulations, Itamar, on the new announcement that you guys made today. >> Thank you very much. >> Lisa: Arvin, great to hear the use case and how Verizon really sounds quite pioneering in what you're doing, wish you continued success there, we look forward to hearing what's next for Verizon, we want to thank you for watching the CUBE, we are again live, day two, of the DataWorks summit, #DWS17, before me my co-host George Gilbert, I am Lisa Martin, stick around, we'll be right back. (relaxed techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation; Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. (upbeat synthesizer music) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. This is The CUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Coming into the show this year, here, at OpenStack, discussion of edge was something that had a little bit of buzz. Last year's show in Austin, the telecommunication all of the NFV solutions were definitely one of the highlights. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Beth Cohen, who is the SDN and NFV Network Product Strategy at Verizon. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, yes. >> All right, so Beth, I mean, we hear cloud in a box, Edge, all those pieces in the keynote, Monday. People are excited, you know, telecommunications. I worked in telecom back in the '90s. I'm excited to see that people are getting involved and looking at this, but before we get into all the tech, just tell us, briefly, about you and your role inside Verizon. >> Sure. So, I actually work at Verizon as a New Product Strategist, so I come up with new products, so I do product management. This is actually my second product for Verizon. The previous one was Secure Cloud Interconnect which is a very successful product. Who would have thought that connecting privately to the cloud would be a good idea? It turns out, everybody thinks that's an excellent idea, but I worked in telecom back, for GTE, back in the 1990s and through BBN, so I've been in this industry for a while and I've always stayed kind of on the cutting edge of things, so I'm very excited to be working on these cutting-edge projects within Verizon. >> All right, so speaking of cutting edge, let's cut to the Edge. >> Beth: Cut to the Edge (laughs). >> And, give our audience a little bit about what the announcement was, >> Sure. >> the actual product itself. >> So, Virtual Network Services, is the product. We originally announced it in July with a universal CP box. That box was not a, what we're calling a white box which I think is the industry term, now. That one was based on the Juniper NFX250 which is, we call, a gray box, so it's using the Juniper NFX software, but the new, new announcement is this is truly a white box. It's an x86 box. It's generic, any x86 will work, and, in fact, the product has, we realized, actually, working with customers that some customers want to have a very small box, very small footprint, low cost, that only supports maybe two, possibly three, NFVs, Virtual Network Functions, all the way up to our largest box, is 36 core. So, we have four core at the bottom, so that's used for the coffee shops or the small retail-type functions where they're only looking for security in routing or security in SDN or SD-WAN or whatever, so very small, compact use all the way up to 36 core which can support, you know, 10 or 12 different functions, so load balancing, routing, security, whatever you want, >> Yeah. >> cloud in a box. >> There's so many pieces of OpenStack and they've been, for years, talking about the complexity. This, really, if I understand it right, I mean, it's OpenStack at the edge in a small box, so how do we kit such a complicated thing in a little box and what kind of functionality does that bring? You know, what will customers get with it? >> So, obviously, it's, we didn't take old everything, >> Right. >> of course, so, you know, it does include Neutron for the networking and it does include Nova in the computes and so it has the core components that you need for OpenStack. And, why did we choose that? Because OpenStack really gave us that consistent platform across both out at the edge and also within the core, so we are building the hosted network services platform which we're using internally, as well, to host our, to support our network services and we're also supporting customers on this same platform. So, that gives us the ability to give a customer experience both out at the edge and within the core. So, of course, everybody wants to know the secret source. How did we cram that in? Containers, so we containerize OpenStack. One of the requirements is it had to be a single core, so it is a single core in the box because, of course, particularly in a small box, you want to leave as much space as possible for services that our customers want because the OpenStack is the infrastructure that supports it all. >> That's great, I mean, so, Beth, that was one of the highlights of the whole show, for me, right. I like when tech blows my mind a little bit and the idea of something that we might have run on a some embedded Linux source or embedded OS before, now, it's actually running a whole cloud platform, in a box, in my office, was amazing. As you're looking at the center of the network versus the edge, is that one, to you and to network ops, is that one big cloud, is that a cloud of clouds? What's kind of the architecture? >> Beth: Cloud of clouds. >> Yeah. >> Is it fog? (co-hosts laughing) >> It's, yeah, you could say it is a fog, because one of the things when you pull a network to the edge like that, Verizon lives, I mean, we live and breathe networks and the networks are WANs, Wide Area Networks, right, they're everywhere, so we live and breathe that every day. So, traditionally, as I mentioned in the keynote, is that cloud has been sort of the data center centric, right, and that changes the equation because, if you think about it, most data center centric clouds, the network ends at, there's some mystery thing that happens and the end, right? It just goes to that network router, you know, NNI, network-to-network net router and it just kind of disappears, right? Well, of course, we know what's on the other side, so what we've done is we've said, okay, we have functionality within that data center, but we've expanded that out to the edge and we understand that you can't just have everything sitting in the cloud and then rely on that edge to just work, so you need to move pieces of it out so it's not reliant on that inside data center. So, there's tools back there, but if that data center connection goes away, that function will still work out at the edge. >> That's great. You talked about both SDN and NFV, a big conversation at OpenStack for the last several years. >> Yeah. >> Can you talk a little bit about maybe the state of SDN and NFV and how you all are looking at that and are we there yet? What do we still, >> (laughs) Are we there yet? >> what places do you still see we need to go? >> So, when I worked with the marketing team, they were like, "Oh, we're going to have to use this NFV term. "We have to use the SDN," and when I talk to customers, inevitably, they're like, "What is the NFV stuff?" They have no idea, so, really, at the end of the day, I see NFV as a telco thing. Absolutely, we need it, but we have to translate what that means to customers because all that back-end stuff, as far as they're concerned, that's magic. That's the magic: that we deliver the services. Those packets just arrive, they do what they're supposed to do. So, I say, okay, network services is really what you're talking about, because they understand, "Oh, yeah, I need that security, I need that firewall, "I need that WAN Optimizer, I need that load balancer." That, they understand. >> Yeah. >> Well, Beth, I, with my telecom background, I think of, there's lots of hardware, there's lots of cabling, there's the challenges that you have with wireless and we're talking a lot about 5G, you're talking about software, though, and it's delivering >> Yeah. >> those services that the customer needs, so, right, is that what they ask for? Is it, I need these pieces and now I can do it via software as opposed to before, I had to, you know, we talked, it's the appliances to the software move? >> Right. >> What are the, your customers asking for and how are they embracing this? >> Well, so our customers are very excited. I can't think of a single customer that I have gone to that have said, "Why would I do that?" They're all saying, "No, this is really exciting," and so what they're doing is they're really rethinking the network because they're used to having stacks of boxes, so the appliance base, you know, that was really pioneered back, of course, Cisco sort of pioneered it back in the '90s but I remember talking to Infoblox back in the, oh, like the early 2000s when they came out with DHCP DNS appliance and I was like, "Wow, that's so cool." So, this is sort of the next generation, so why do you need to have six different boxes that do a single thing? Why don't we just make it a cloud in the box and put all those functions together and service chain them? That gives you a lot more flexibility. You're not stuck with that proprietary hardware and then worrying about, I mean, I can't tell you how many customers want to do this for tech refresh. They have end-of-life equipment that the vendor is saying, "Forget it, (laughs) this is 10-year-old equipment. "We're not supporting it anymore." >> Yeah, but what are the security implications, here, though? We've seen the surface area of where attacks can come from just seems to be growing exponentially. I think, I go to the edge, I've got way more devices, there's more vulnerabilities. Your last product, you said, was security. How does security fit into all of this? What are you hearing from your costumers? How do you partner with other people? >> So, security is absolutely paramount to our customers. As I mentioned in the talk, there was a, we did a survey of our customers. Security was absolutely the top priority, but security's a lot more sophisticated, as you said, than it used to be and the vectors for attack are much more sophisticated and so it's not enough to just have a firewall. That's, your attack is, you know, the sqiushy inside and the hard outside, forget it. That's just (laughs)-- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it. >> That's just not there anymore. >> Indeed, the moats are gone. They're in the castle. >> Yeah. >> They're in the castle, right. So, for us, it's very appealing to our customers, that, the idea that they can put the security where they need it, so they can put it out at the edge and some of them so want it at the edge and we give them the choice of setting up a sort of a minimal basic firewall or a full-featured next-gen firewall. We also find customers kind of like the brand names, so we offer Palo Alto, Fortinet, Cisco, Juniper and others will be coming, so that appeals to them. They tend to be a shop of one or the other. >> John: All on a software basis? >> All on a software basis. >> Giving them the virtual clients discount? >> Right, yeah, all virtual clients is right. And, you know, at the end of the day, our customers don't actually care about the hardware. For them, it's the service. >> I wanted to take it over to OpenStack itself for a little bit. You know, the great conversation here, this week, has been something about modularization, talking about the ecosystem, talking about containers, both the app layer up on top and the packaging layer down below, which is kind of really cool, as well. How are you seeing the OpenStack community engage with the ecosystem be available to different use cases like this? Right, slim it down, take what you need, leave the rest, different, for a while, the conversation was, there were so many projects and, about everything, and do you feel like OpenStack is going where we need it to go, now, in terms of, again, a usable partner and community to work with? >> I do believe that because, so, my product is really a portfolio, if you think about it, so it's a portfolio of services and I view our use of OpenStack in the same way. So, we're really taking that portfolio of OpenStack services and pulling, you know, putting together the package that we need to deliver the services. So, what's out at the edge, that package of OpenStack services at the edge, that's not the same set of services as what's within the core data center. There's some commonality, but we've chosen the ones that are important to us for the edge and chosen the ones that are important to us for the core. So, I think that the OpenStack community is really embracing this notion and we really welcome that, that thing. Now, what I'm finding is that the vendors that we're supporting, you know, that, in the ecosystem, at the application layer, are still struggling with, "Okay, do we containerize? "Do we support, what do, how do we support it?" I can't tell you how many vendors I've gone to and I said, "If you want to be in our portfolio," and obviously most of them do, you know, Verizon's a big company, "you have to be virtualized. "You have to be able to support, run under OpenStack," and they have to get past that, (laughs) that issue. >> Beth, I noticed in some of your social feeds, you've attended some of the Women at OpenStack event. >> Yes. >> I wonder if you have any comment on the events there and diversity in general in the community? >> So, one of the things I love about OpenStack is it's really, really gone out of its way in, within the open source community, in general, to really focus on the value of diversity and it really does track the number of women that, you know, there's a metric that says the percentage of women at every summit and it's going up and the Women of OpenStack community focus on mentoring, and it's not just women, because mentoring's very important, but it really allows, but women are, have sort of special challenges and minorities have special challenges, as well, and we really try to embrace that fact that you do need a leg up if you're not a 50-year-old white guy (laughs). >> All right, Beth Cohen, really appreciate you joining us. Congratulations on the keynote, the product and wish you the best of luck going forward. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston. For John and myself, thanks for watching The CUBE. (upbeat synthesizer music)

(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. >> All right, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Day 4 of coverage MWC 23. We've been talking all week about the disaggregation of the telco networks, how telcos need to increase revenue how they're not going to let the over the top providers do it again. They want to charge Netflix, right? And Netflix is punching back. There maybe are better ways to do revenue acceleration. We're going to talk to that topic with Dave Trigg who's the Global Vice President of Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies. And Ken Burns, who's a global telecom partner, sales lead. Guys, good to see you. >> Good to see you. Great to be here. >> Dave, you heard my, you're welcome. You heard my intro. It's got to be better ways to, for the telcos to make money. How can they accelerate revenue beyond taxing Netflix? >> Yeah, well, well first of all, sort of the promise of 5G, and a lot of people talk about 5G as the enterprise G. Right? So the promise of 5G is to really help drive revenue enterprise use cases. And so, it's sort of the promise of the next generation of technology, but it's not easy to figure out how we monetize that. And so we think Dell has a pretty significant role to play. It's a CEO conversation for every telco and how they accelerate. And so it's an area we're investing heavily into three different areas for telcos. One is the IT space. Dell's done that forever. 90% of the companies leaning in on that. The other places network, network's more about cost takeout. And the third area where we're investing in is working with what we call their line of businesses, but it's really their business units, right? How can we sit down with them and really understand what services do they take to market? Where do they go? So, we're making significant investments. So one way they can do it is working with Dell and and we're making big investments 'cause in most Geos we have a fairly significant sales force. We've brought in an industry leader to help us put it together. And we're getting very focused on this space and, you know, looking forward to talking more about it. >> So Ken, you know, the space inside and out, we just had at AT&T on... >> Dave Trigg: Yep. >> And they were saying we have to be hypersensitive because of our platinum brand to the use of personal information. >> Ken: Yeah. >> So we're not going to go there yet. We're not going to go directly monetize, but yet I'm thinking well, Netflix knows what I'm watching and they're making recommendations and they're, and and that's how they make money. And so the, the telcos are, are shy about doing that for right reasons, but they want to make better offers. They want to put, put forth better bundles. You know, they don't, they don't want to spend all their time trying to figure that out and not being able to change when they need to change. So, so what is the answer? If they're not going to go toward that direct monetization of data? >> Ken: Yeah. >> How do they get there? >> So I, I joined Dell in- at the end of June and brought on, as David said, to, to build and lead this what we call the line of business strategy, right? And ultimately what it is is tying together Dell technology solutions and the best of breed of what the telecoms bring to bear to solve the business outcomes of our joint customers. And there's a few jewels inside of Dell. One of it is that we have 35,000 sellers out there all touching enterprise business customers. And we have a really good understanding of what those customer needs are and you know what their outcomes needs to be. The other jewel is we have a really good understanding of how to solve those business outcomes. Dell is an open company. We work with thousands of integrators, and we have a really good insight in terms of how to solve those business outcomes, right? And so in my conversations with the telecom companies when you talk about, you know combining the best assets of Dell with their capabilities and we're all talking to the same customers, right? And if we're giving them the same story on these solutions solving business outcomes it's a beautiful thing. It's a time to market. >> What's an example of a, of a, of a situation where you'll partner with telcos that's going to drive revenue for, for both of you and value for the customer? >> Yeah, great question. So we've been laser focused on four key areas, cyber, well, let me start off with connected laptops, cyber, private mobility, and edge. Right? Now, the last two are a little bit squishy, but I'll I'll get to that in a bit, right? Because ultimately I feel like with this 5G market, we could actually make the market. And the way that we've been positioning this is almost, almost on a journey for IOT. When we talk about laptops, right? Dell is the, is the number one company in the world to sell business laptops. Well, if we start selling connected laptops the telcos are starting to say, well, you know what? If all of those laptops get connected to my network, that's a ton of 5G activations, right? We have the used cases on why having a connected workforce makes sense, right? So we're sharing that with the telcos to not simply sell a laptop, but to sell the company on why it makes sense to have that connected workforce. >> Dave Vellante: Why does it make sense? It could change the end customer. >> Ken: Yeah. So, you know, I'm probably not the best to answer that one right? But, but ultimately, you know Dell is selling millions and millions of laptops out there. And, and again, the Verizon's, the AT&T's, the T-mobile's, they're seeing the opportunity that, you know, connecting those laptops, give those the 5G activations right? But Dave, you know, the way that we've been positioning this is it's not simply a laptop could be really a Trojan horse into this IOT journey. Because ultimately, if you sell a thousand laptops to an enterprise company and you're connecting a thousand of their employees, you're connecting people, right? And we can give the analytics around that, what they're using it for, you know, making sure that the security, the bios, all of that is up to date. So now that you're connecting their people you could open up the conversation to why don't we we connect your place and, you know, allowing the telecom companies to come in and educate customers and the Dell sales force on why a private 5G mobility network makes sense to connecting places. That's a great opportunity. When you connect the place, the next part of that journey is connecting things in that place. Robotics, sensors, et cetera, right? And, and so really, so we're on the journey of people, places, things. >> So they got the cyber angle angle in there, Dave. That, that's clear benefit. If you, you know, if you got all these bespoke laptops and they're all at different levels you're going to get, you know, you're going to get hacked anyway. >> Ken: That's right. >> You're going to get hacked worse. >> Yeah. I'm curious, as you go to market, do you see significant differences? You don't have to name any names, but I imagine that there are behemoths that could be laggards because essentially they feel like they're the toll booth and all they have to do is collect, keep collecting the tolls. Whereas some of the smaller, more nimble, more agile entities that you might deal with might be more receptive to this message. That seems to be the sort of way the circle of life are. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing the big ones? Are you seeing the, you know, the aircraft carriers realizing that we got to turn into the wind guys and if we don't start turning into the wind now we're going to be in trouble. >> So this conference has been absolutely fantastic allowing us to speak with, you know, probably 30 plus telecom operators around this strategy, right? And all of the big guys, they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in their 5G network and they haven't really seen the ROI. So when we're coming into them with a story about how Dell can help monetize their 5G network I got to tell you they're pretty excited >> Dave Nicholson: So they're receptive? >> Oh my God. They are very receptive >> So that's the big question, right? I mean is, who's, is anybody ever going to make any money off of 5G? And Ken, you were saying that private mobility and edge are a little fuzzy but I think from a strategy standpoint I mean that is a potential gold mine. >> Yeah, but it, for, for lot of the telcos and most telcos it's a pretty significant shift in mentality, right? Cause they are used to selling sim cards to some degree and how many sim cards are they selling and how many, what other used cases? And really to get to the point where they understand the use case, 'cause to get into the enterprise to really get into what can they do to help power a enterprise business more wholly. They've got to understand the use case. They got to understand the more complete solution. You know, Dell's been doing that for years. And that's where we can bring our Salesforce, our capabilities, our understanding of the customer. 'cause even your original question around AT&T and trying to understand the data, that's just really a how do you get better understanding of your customer, right? >> Right. Absolutely. >> And, and combined we're better together 'cause we bring a more complete picture of understanding our customers and then how can we help them understand what the edge is. Cause nobody's ever bought an Edge, right? They're buying an Edge to get a business outcome. You know, back in the day, nobody ever bought a data lake, right? Like, you know, they're buying an outcome. They want to use, use that data lake or they want to use the edge to deliver something. They want to use 5G. And 5G has very real capabilities. It's got intrinsic security, which, you know a lot of the wifi doesn't. It's got guaranteed on time, you know, for areas where you can't lose connectivity: autonomous vehicles, et cetera. So it's got very real capabilities that helps deliver that outcome. But you got to be able to translate that into the en- enterprise language to help them solve a problem. And that's where we think we need the help of the telcos. I think the telcos we can help them as well and, and really go drive that outcome. >> So Dell's bringing its go to market expertise and its technology. The telcos obviously have the the connectivity piece and what they do. There's no overlap in terms of the... >> Yeah. >> The, the equipment and the software that you're selling. I mean, they're going to, they're going to take your equipment and create new networks. Beautiful. And, and it's interesting you, like, you think about how Dell has transformed prior to EMC, Dell was, you know, PC maker with a subpar enterprise business, right? Kind of a wannabe enterprise business. Sorry Dell, it's the truth. And then EMC was largely, you know, a company sold storage boxes, but you owned VMware and then brought those two together. Now all of a sudden you had Dell powerhouse leader and Michael Dell, you had VMware incredibly strategic and important and it got EMC with amazing go to market. All of a sudden this Dell, Dell technologies became incredibly attractive to CIOs, C-level executives, board level. And you've come out of that transition VMware's now a separate company, right? And now, but now you have these relationships and you got the shops to be able to go into these edge locations at companies And actually go partner with the telcos. And you got a very compelling value proposition. >> Well, it's been interesting as in, in this show, again most telcos think of Dell as a server provider, you know? Important, but not overly strategic in their journey. But as we've started to invest in this business we've started to invest in things like automation. We've brought together things in our Infra Blocks and then we help them develop revenue. We're not only helping 'em take costs out of their network we're not helping 'em take risk out of deploying that network. We're helping them accelerate the deployment of that network. And then we're helping 'em drive revenue. We are having, you know, they're starting to see us in a new light. Not done yet, but, you know, you can start to see, one, how they're looking at Dell and two, and then how we can go to market. And you know, a big part of that is helping 'em drive and generate revenue. >> Yeah. Well, as, as a, as a former EMC person myself, >> Yeah? >> I will assert that that strategic DNA was injected into Dell by the acquisition of, of EMC. And I'm sticking... >> I won't say that. Okay I'll believe you on that. >> I'm sticking with the story. And it makes sense when you think about moving up market, that's the natural thing. What's, what's what's nearly impossible is to say, we sell semi-trucks but we want to get into the personal pickup truck market. That's that, that doesn't work. Going the other way works. >> Dave Trigg: Yeah. >> Now, now back to the conversation that you had with, with, with AT&T. I'm not buying this whole, no offense to AT&T, but I'm not buying this whole story that, you know, oh we're concerned about our branded customer data. That sounds like someone who's a little bit too comfortable with their existing revenue stream. If I'm out there, I want to be out partnering with folks who are truly aggressive about, about coming up with the next cool thing. You guys are talking about being connected in a laptop. Someone would say, well I got wifi. No, no, no. I'm thinking I want to sim in my laptop cause I don't want to screw around with wifi. Okay, fine. If I know I'm going to be somewhere with excellent wifi connectivity, great. But most of the time it's not excellent. >> That's right. >> So the idea that I could maybe hit F2 and have it switch over to my sim and know that anywhere that I've got coverage, I have high speed connections. Just the convenience of that. >> Ken: Absolutely. >> I'd pay extra for that as an end user consumer. >> Absolutely. >> And I pay for the service. >> Like I tell you, if it interests AT&T I think it's more not, they ask, they're comfortable. They don't know how to monetize that data. Now, of course, AT&T has a media >> Dave Nicholson: Business necessity is the mother of invention. If they don't see the necessity then they're not going to think about it. >> It's a mentality shift. Yes, but, but when you start talking about private mobility and edge, there's there's no concern about personal information there. You're going in with basically a business transformation. Hey, your, your business is, is not, not digital. It's not automated. Now we're going to automate that and digitize that. It's like the, the Dell booth with the beer guys. >> Right. >> You saw that, right? >> I mean that's, I mean that's a simple application. Yeah, a perfect example of how you network and use this technology. >> I mean, how many non-digital businesses are that that need to go digital? >> Dave Nicholson: Like, hundred percent of them. >> Everyone. >> Dave Nicholson: Pretty much. >> Yeah. And this, and this jewel that we have inside of Dell our global industries group, right, where we're investing really heavily in terms of what is the manufacturing industry looking for retail, finance, et cetera. So we have a CTO that came in, that it would be the CTO of manufacturing that gives us a really good opportunity to go to at AT&T or to Verizon or any telco out there, right? To, to say, these are the outcomes. There's Dell technology already in place. How do we connect it to your network? How do we leverage your assets, your manager professional services to provide a richer experience? So it's, there's, you said before Dave, there's really no overlap between Dell and, and our telecom partners. >> You guys making some serious investments here. I mean I, I've been, I was been critical over the years of, hey, you can't just take an X86 block, put a name on it that says edge something and throw it over the fence because that's what you were doing. >> Dave Trigg: And we would agree. >> Yeah. Right. But, of course, but that's all you had at the time. And so you put some... >> We may not have agreed then, but we would agree. >> You bought, brought some people in, you know, like Ken, who really know the business. You brought people into the technical side and you can really see it happening. It's not going to happen overnight. You know, I mean, you know if I were an investor in Dell, I'd be like, okay when are you going to start making money at this business? I'd be like, be patient. You know, it's going to take some time but look at the TAM. >> Yep. >> You know, you guys do a good, good TAM. Tennis is a pro at this stuff. >> We've been at, we've been at this two, three years and we're just now coming with some real material products. You've seen our server line really start to get more purpose-built, really start to get in there as we've started to put out some software that allows for quicker automation, quicker deployments. We have some telcos that are using it to deploy at 10,000 locations. They're literally turning up thousands of locations a week. And so yeah, we're starting to put out some real capability. Got a long way to go. A lot of exciting things on the roadmap. But to your point, it doesn't, you know the ship doesn't turn overnight, you know. >> It could be a really meaningful portion of Dell's business. I'm, I'm excited for the day that Tom Sweet starts reporting on it. Here's our telco business. Yeah. The telco business. But that's not going to happen overnight. But you know, Dell's pretty good at things like ROI. And so you guys do a lot of planning a lot of TAM analysis, a lot of technical analysis, bringing the ecosystem together. That's what this business needs. I, I just don't, it's, it feels unstoppable. You know, you're at this show everybody recognizes the need to open up. Some telcos are moving faster than others. The ones that move faster are going to disrupt. They're going to probably make some mistakes, you know but they're going to get there first. >> Well we've, we've seen the disruptors are making some mistakes and are kind of re- they're already at the phase where they're reevaluating, you know, their approach. Which is great. You know, you, you learn and adjust. You know, you run into a wall, you, you make a turn. And the interesting thing, one of the biggest learnings I've taken out of the show is talking to a bunch of the telcos that are a little bit more of the laggards. They're like, Nope, we, we don't believe in open. We don't think we can do it. We don't have the skillset. They're maybe in a geo that it's hard to find the skillset. As they've been talking to us, and we've been talking about, there's almost a glimmer of hope. They're not convinced yet, but they're like, well wait, maybe we can do this. Maybe open, you know, does give us choice. Maybe it can help us accelerate revenue. So it's been interesting to see a little bit of the, just a little bit, but a little bit of that shift. >> We all remember at 2010, 2011, you talked to banks and financial services companies about, the heck, the Cloud is happening, the Cloud's going to take over the world. We're never going to go into the Cloud. Now they're the biggest, you know Capital One's launching Cloud businesses, Western Union, I mean, they're all in the cloud, right? I mean, it's the same thing's going to happen here. Might, it might take a different pattern. Maybe it takes a little longer, but it's, it's it's a fate are completely >> I was in high school then, so I don't remember all that. >> Sorry, Dave. >> Wow, that was a low blow, like you know? >> But, but the, but the one thing that is for sure there's money to be made convincing people to get off of the backs of the dinosaurs they're riding. >> Dave Vellante: That's right. >> And also, the other thing that's a certainty is that it's not easy. And because it's not easy, there's opportunity there. So I know, I know it's, it, it, it, it, it all sounds great to talk about the the wonderful vision of the future, but I know how hard the the road is that you have to go down to get people, especially if you're comfortable with the revenue stream, if you're comfortable running the plumbing. If you're so comfortable that you can get up on stage and say, I want more money from you to pump your con- your content across my network. I love the Netflix retort, right Dave? >> Yeah, totally Dave. And, but the, the other thing is, telco's a great business. It's, they got monopolies that print money. So... >> Dave Nicholson: It's rational. It's rational. I understand. >> There's less of an incentive to move but what's going to be the incentive is guys like Dish Network coming in saying, we're going to, we're going to disrupt, we're going to build new apps. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Well and it's, you know, revenue acceleration, the board level, the CEO level know that they have to, you know, do things different. But to your point, it's just hard, and there's so much gravity there. There's hundreds of years literally of gravity of how they've operated their business. To your point, a lot of them, you know, lot- most of 'em were regulated and most Geos around the world at one point, right? They were government owned or government regulated entities. It's, it's a big ship to turn and it's really hard. We're not claiming we can help them turn the ship overnight but we think we can help evolve them. We think we can go along with the journey and we do think we are better together. >> IT the network and the line of business. Love the strategy. Guys, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> All right, for Dave, Nicholson, Dave Vellante here, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio banging out all the news, keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back.

(intro music) >> Narrator: "theCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (gentle music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. As you well know, we are live at MWC23 in Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our coverage, as you know, 'cause you've been watching the first two days. A lot of conversations about ecosystem, a lot about disruption in the telco industry. We're going to be talking about Open RAN. You've heard some of those great conversations, the complexities, the opportunities. Two guests join Dave and me. Abdullah Abuzaid, Technical Product Manager at Dell, and Gil Hellmann, VP Telecom Solutions Engineering and Architecture at Wind River. Welcome to the program guys. >> Thank you. >> Nice to be here. >> Let's talk a little bit about Dell and Wind River. We'll each ask you both the same question, and talk to us about how you're working together to really address the complexities that organizations are having when they're considering moving from a closed environment to an open environment. >> Definitely. Thank you for hosting us. By end of the day, the relationship between Dell and Wind River is not a new. We've been collaborating in the open ecosystem for long a time enough. And that's one of the, our partnership is a result of this collaboration where we've been trying to make more efficient operation in the ecosystem. The open environment ecosystem, it has the plus and a concern. The plus of simplicity, choice of multiple vendors, and then the concern of complexity managing these vendors. Especially if we look at examples for the Open RAN ecosystem, dealing with multiple vendors, trying to align them. It bring a lot of operational complexity and TCO challenges for our customers, from this outcome where we build our partnership with Wind River in order to help our customer to simplify, or run deployment, operation, and lifecycle management and sustain it. >> And who are the customers, by the way? >> Mainly the CSP customers who are targeting Open RAN and Virtual RAN deployments. That digital transformation moving towards unified cloud environment, or a seamless cloud experience from Core to RAN, these are the customers we are working with them. >> You'll give us your perspective, your thoughts on the partnership, and the capabilities that you're enabling, the CSPs with that. >> Sure. It's actually started last year here in Barcelona, when we set together, and started to look at the, you know, the industry, the adoption of Open RAN, and the challenges. And Open RAN brings a lot of possibilities and benefit, but it does bring a lot of challenges of reintegrating what you desegregate. In the past, you purchase everything from one vendor, they provide the whole solution. Now you open it, you have different layers. So if you're looking at Open RAN, you have, I like to look at it as three major layers, the management, application, and the infrastructure. And we're starting to look what are the challenges. And the challenges of integration, of complexity, knowledge that operator has with cloud infrastructure. And this is where we basically, Dell and Winder River set together and say, "How can we ease this? "How we can make it simpler?" And we decided to partner and bring a joint infrastructure solution to market, that's not only integrated at a lab at the factory level, but it basically comes with complete lifecycle management from the day zero deployment, through the day two operation, everything done through location, through Dell supported, working out of the box. So basically taking this whole infrastructure layer integration pain out, de-risking everything, and then continuing from there to work with the ecosystem vendor to reintegrate, validate the application, on top of this infrastructure. >> So what is the, what is the Wind River secret sauce in this, in this mix, for folks who aren't familiar with what Wind River does? >> Yes, absolutely. So Wind River, for many, many don't know, we're in business since 1981. So over 40 years. We specialize high performance, high reliability infrastructure. We touch every aspect of your day and your life. From the airplane that you fly, the cars, the medical equipment. And if we go into the telco, most of the telco equipment that it's not virtualized, not throughout the fight today, using our operating system. So from all the leading equipment manufacturers and even the smaller one. And as the world started to go into desegregation in cloud, Wind River started to look at this and say, "Okay, everything is evolving. Instead of a device that included the application, the hardware, everything fused together, it's now being decomposed. So instead of providing the operating environment to develop and deploy the application to the device manufacturer, now we're providing it basically to build the cloud. So to oversimplify, I call it a cloud OS, okay. It's a lot more than OS, it's an operating environment. But we took basically our experience, the same experience that, you know, we used in all those years with the telco equipment manufacturer, and brought it into the cloud. So we're basically providing solution to build an on-premises scalable cloud from the core all the way to the far edge, that doesn't compromise reliability, doesn't compromise performance, and address all the telco needs. >> So I, Abdullah, maybe you can a answer this. >> Yeah. >> What is the, what does the go-to-market motion look like, considering that you have two separate companies that can address customers directly, separately. What does that, what does that look like if you're approaching a possible customer who is, who's knocking on the door? >> How does that work? >> Exactly. And this effort is a Dell turnkey sales service offering, or solution offering to our customers. Where Dell, in collaboration with Wind River, we proactively validate, integrate, and productize the solution as engineered system, knock door on our customer who are trying to transform to Open RAN or open ecosystem. We can help you to go through that seamless experience, by pre-validating with whatever workload you want to introduce, enable zero touch provisioning, and during the day one deployment, and ensure we have sustainable lifecycle management throughout the lifecycle of the product in, in operate, in operational network, as well as having a unified single call of support from Dell side. >> Okay. So I was just going to ask you about support. So I'm a CSP, I have the solution, I go to Dell for support. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So start with Dell, and level one, level two. And if there are complex issues related to the cloud core itself, then Wind River will be on our back supporting us. >> Talk a little bit about a cust, a CSP example that is, is using the technology, and some of the outcomes that they're able to achieve. I'd love to get both of your perspectives on that. >> Vodafone is a great example. We're here in Barcelona. Vodafone is the first ora network in Europe, and it's using our joint solution. >> What are some of the, the outcomes that it's helping them to achieve? >> Faster time to market. As you see, they already started to deploy the ORAN in commercial network, and very successful in the trials that they did last year. We're also not stopping there. We're evolving, working with them together to improve like stuff around energy efficiency. So continue to optimize. So the outcome, it's just simplifying it, and you know, ready to go. Using experience that we have, Wind River is powering the first basically virtualized RAN 5G network in the world. This is with Verizon. We're at the very large scale. We started this deployment in late '20 and '19, the first site. And then through 2020 to 2022, we basically rolled in large scale. We have a lot of experience learning from it, which what we brought into the table when we partnered with Dell. A lot of experience from how you deploy at scale. Many sites from a central location, updates, upgrade. So the whole day two operation, and this is coming to bearing the solution that basically Vodafone is deploying now, and which allowed them... If I, if I look at my engagement with Verizon, started years before we started. And it took quite some time until we got stuff running. And if you look at the Vodafone time schedule, was significantly compressed compared to the Verizon first deployment. And I can tell you that there are other service providers that were announced here by KDI, for example. It's another one moving even faster. So it's accelerating the whole movement to Ora. >> We've heard a lot of acceleration talk this week. I'd love to get your perspective, Abdullah, talking about, you know, you, you just mentioned two huge names in Telco, Vodafone and Verizon. >> Yep. >> Talk a little bit about Dell's commitment to helping telecommunications companies really advance, accelerate innovation so that all of us on the other end have this thing that just works wherever we are 24 by 7. >> Not exactly. And this, we go back to the challenges in Open ecosystem. Managing multiple vendors at the same time, is a challenge for our customers. And that's why we are trying to simplify their life cycle by have, by being a trusted partner, working with our customer through all the journey. We started with Dish in their 5G deployment. Also with Vodafone. We're finding the right partners working with them proactively before getting into, in front of the customer to, we've done our homework, we are ready to simplify the process for you to go for it. If you look at the RAN in particular, we are talking with the 5g. We have ran the simplification, but they still have on the other side, limited resources and skillset can support it. So, bringing a pro, ahead of time engineer system, with a zero touch of provisioning enablement, and sustainable life cycle management, it lead to the faster time to market deployment, TCO savings, improved margins for our customers, and faster business revenue for their end users. >> Solid outcomes. >> And, and what you just just described, justifies the pain associated with disaggregating and reintegrating, which is the way that Gill referenced it, which I think is great because you're not, you're not, you're not re-aggregating, (laughs) you're reintegrating, and you're creating something that's better. >> Exactly. >> Moving forward. Otherwise, why would you do it? >> Exactly. And if you look at it, the player in the ecosystem, you have the vendors, you have the service integrators, you have the automation enablers, but kind of they are talking in silos. Everyone, this is my raci, this is what I'm responsible for. I, I'm not able, I don't want to get into something else while we are going the extra mile by working proactively in that ecosystem to... Let's bring brains together, find out what's one plus one can bring three for our customers, so we make it end-to-end seamless experience, not only on the technical part, but also on the business aspect side of it. >> So, so the partnership, it's about reducing the pen. I will say eliminating it. So this is the, the core of it. And you mentioned getting better coverage for your phone. I do want to point out that the phones are great, but if you look at the premises of a 5G network, it's to enable a lot more things that will touch your life that are beyond the consumer and the phone. Stuff like connected vehicles. So for example, something as simple as collision avoidance, the ability for the car that goes in front of you to be able to see what's happening and broadcast this information to the car behind that have no ability to see it. And basically affect our life in a way that makes our driving safer. And for this, you need a ultra low, reliable low latency communication. You need a 5G network. >> I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, we think about, "Well we just have to be connected all the time." But those are some of the emerging technologies that are going to be potentially lifesaving, and, and really life transforming that you guys are helping to enable. So, really great stuff there, but so much promise coming down the road. What's next for Dell and Wind River? And, and when you're in conversations with prospective CSP's, what is the superpower that you deliver together? I'd love to get both of your perspectives. >> So, if you look at it, number one, customers look at it, last savings and their day-to-day operation. In 5G nature, we are talking the introduction of ORAN. This is still picking up. But there is a mutualization and densification of ORAN. And this is where we're talking on monetizing my deployment. Then the third phase, we're talking sustainability and advanced service introduction. Where I want to move not only ORAN, I want to bring the edge at the same side, I want to define the advanced use cases of edge, where it enables me with this pre-work being done to deliver more services and better SLA services. By end of the day, 5G as a girl mentioned earlier, is not about a good better phone coverage, or a better speed robot, but what customized SLA's I can deliver. So it enables me to deliver different business streams to my end users. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. I will say there are two pens. One, it's the technology side. So for an example, energy efficiency. It's a very big pin point. And sustainability. So we work a lot around this, and basically to advance this. So if you look at the integrated solution today, it's very highly optimized for resource consumption. But to be able to more dynamically be able to change your power profile without compromising the SLA. So this is one side. The other side, it's about all those applications that will come to the 5G network to make our life better. It's about integrating, validating, certifying those applications. So, it's not just easy to deploy an ORAN network, but it's easy to deploy those applications. >> I'd be curious to get your perspective on the question of ROI in this, in this space. Specifically with the sort of the macro headwinds (clears throat) the economies of the world are facing right now, if you accept that. What does the ROI timeline look like when you're talking about moving towards ORAN, adopting VRAN, an amazing, you know, a plethora of new services that can be delivered, but will these operators have the appetite to take that, make that investment and take on that risk based upon the ROI time horizon? Any thoughts on that? >> Yeah. So if you look at the early days or ORAN introduction in particular, most of the entrepreneurs of ORAN and Virtual RAN ran into the challenges of not only the complexity of open ecosystem, but the integration, is like the redos of the work. And that's where we are trying to address it via pre-engineered system or building an engineer system proactively before getting it to the customers. Per our result or outcomes we get, we are talking about 30 to 50% savings on the optics. We are talking 110 ROI for our customers, simply because we are reducing the redos, the time spent to discover and explore. Because we've done that rework ahead of time, we found the optimization issues. Just for example, any customer can buy the same components from any multiple vendors, but how I can bring them together and give, deliver for me the best performance that I can fully utilize, that's, that's where it brings the value for our customer, and accelerate the deployment and the operation of the network. >> Do you have anything to add before we close in the next 30 seconds? >> Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) >> Absolutely. I would say, we start to see the data coming from two years of operation at scale. And the data supports performance. It's the same or better than traditional system. And the cost of operation, it's as good or better than traditional. Unfortunately, I can't provide more specific data. But the point is, when something is unknown in the beginning, of course you're more afraid, you take more conservative approach. Now the data starts to flow. And from here, the intention needs to go even better. So more efficiency, so cost less than traditional system, both to operate as well as to build up. But it's definitely the data that we have today says, the, ORAN system is at part, at the minimum. >> So, definite ROI there. Guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about how you're helping organizations not just address the complexities of moving from close to open, but to your point, eliminating them. We appreciate your time and, and your insights. >> Thank you. >> All right. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. Live from MWC23. We'll be back after a short break. (outro music)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)