>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. And when we kicked off this program, Cloud Native Insights, we wanted to talk about the innovation and agility that's happening, not just Cloud as a location. We're going to draw down a little bit into one of the very important pieces of a company and that's their websites and their applications, that live in that environment. And of course, that comes from a lot of changes over the years. Any of us that have been in tech for a couple of decades have worked from the early days, to of course today's multimedia globally distributed environment and everyone during the global pandemic, of course, has been (indistinct) straining their use of the internet. So really excited to welcome to the program the two co-founders of Netlify. I have Matt Biilmann, who is the CEO, and his co-founder Christian Bach, who is the president both of Netlify really the company behind Jamstack, which we're going to explain and talk about a bit. Matt and Chris, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us >> All right so, let's start with just some of the basics. I expect that some of our audience is not familiar with Jamstack. You do a quick Google search and it's JavaScript, its APIs, its markup. And you say, okay, I understand what a bunch of that means. But, yeah, if you could give us kind of a compare contrast to what web development was before and how Jamstack's really helping to revolutionize what's happening in this space. >> Yes, so for many years, we built websites and web applications with an application based architecture, where every website or every application would be this monolithic application with typically like a load balancer, a set of web servers, application servers, and that database and every request through a page would go through this whole stack it would pass through the application layer, talk to the database, fetch template, merge data and template, build HTML on the fly and send it back to the user. And basically what we saw happening and what's been happening with the Jamstack is this decoupling of the actual front-end presentation layer of the websites and web applications and then the back-end layer. And the advantages there is that if you can really pre-build the front-end application layer, you can take the actual HTML, or an application shell and distribute it across a globally distributed network, you can get it into the hands of the user's browser very quickly. And then the back end, what we've seen happening there is that it's split up to all these different APIs and services you no longer have your one monolithic back end you have all these different services. Where some of your own but a lot of them are other people's services like Stripe or Twilio or Algolia or Contentful. So we've seen this shift to this architecture, where we're considered in a way that the stack has moved up a little from the old tooling where something like the LAMP stack would be common in really naming the programming language, the specific web server, the Linux server, the operating system, and so on right? And then up to a level where it's really about getting an application into the browser, using JavaScript as the runtime and talking to this whole new economy of APIs and services. >> Yeah, Chris I wonder if you could bring us inside your customers and the companies that you talk to. I think about for the longest time it was, maybe I just outsource my web development, but website is one of those key components that I share my value, I share what's going on, I want to be able to change it pretty often and there's so much more that I can do today than I could have done 10 years ago. We've watched that mark. So, help us understand, what skill sets do people need to have? what type of companies are using Jamstack? And, bring in if you can, Netlify. How is this a business and not just, an open source standards movement, that's helping to revolutionize what's happening? >> Absolutely, I mean, First of all, people using this and companies use this is extremely wide. Wide vertical, right? Its very horizontal. This is anyone with a digital property basically, right? I think what we've seen all the time is that, that we have a lot more channels than we used to have, right? So we started off just maybe having the one dot com, right? With limited functionality. And today, you have a multiple channels, right? You have the landing pages, you have the domains, you have lots of activities online. You have mobile apps and commerce is often a big part of it, and I would say especially the last few months, there's a lot of people that had the digital convergence points as one of many. And now it's the only ones, right? So I think it's become extremely important. I also think that when you look at your web infrastructure in general, it has been very complex, right? And you need a lot of different people, right? And you need to maintain staging environments, production lines, development environments. You need to, have a wide set of skills to maintain these things, right? And if a web developer wanted to do a lot of things, right? They have to go and tap DevOps and so on on the shoulder, right? And I think what the Jamstack is about saying, hey, you can get so much further as a web developer. Now, if you take the modern built tools, you can take the Git workflows, and you wrap around the browser that has become a full-fledged operating system and the API economy as Matt was just talking about. You have these workflows, or you potentially have these workflows, where you can get so much further, right? And that's very much Netlify submission. So Netlify saw this opportunity of decoupling the front end from the back end of the building from the hosting of creating an approach to making websites that would be many times faster, 'cause you have multiple points of origin and you don't feel fredurous. It's many times safer. There's not that huge surface area of attack. It's much more scalable, and so on. It was sort of a win-win-win. But the problem was, there was no viable workflow. If you take a traditional CDN, and you put it in, it doesn't matter really, if it's one or the other. As good as they (indistinct) services, they're all meant to sit in front of an origin, right? They're meant to buffer something. And if you have the gems, there's no origin in that way, right? The network in itself has to be an origin so it has to be architectured quite differently. And then there's a lot of things around CDCI and how you server lists and so on. That all had to be sort of re-merged . And Netlify is that glue, it is that platform that takes you from local development all the way out to edge nodes. But allows you to mix and match any tool. So it's not program independent. So you can say, well, we use a build tool, and that's PHP or Ruby or JavaScript, the react or Next or whatever it might be, right? And we use these APIs for this server, for this property. Over here we have a commerce site. Over here, we have a dotcom, that needs a huge enterprise CMS with tons of stakeholders. But the thing is that all of those now becomes something that plugs into your website. Rather than have to drive the website itself. And that's sort of frees up the silos. So when we see people using Netlify, we have companies using Netlify. Big Fitness Company, for example, that own fitness company that uses us for developer documentation, or their marketing sites, but also for their dotcom. But even if you go to the equipment that people have at home, and you log in, that's actually using some very nifty identity and remote based access control for Netlify and if you watch the video there, it's also going through a Netlify player, all right? We have fast food chains that has their dotcom and their marketing sites, but also the kiosks down in the store like the menus, the screens there. Rather than being an old Windows NT server running some .NET application in a dusty corner, why not have it like that? And so, both the category but also Netlify sort of brings in a solution and because it's decoupled from all those architectural choices, that means that you can now use the solution in a much, much wider setting. And we were sort of first to market doing this. They get serverless approach where you just push your serverless functions to get better Netlify. First Feature Deploy Previews Were invented by us and so on. So the Jamstack is an extremely wide fundamental architectural approach that matches basically anyone that wants to build web properties. Netlify is the segnostic wide platform that just makes it possible. >> Yeah, good Chris actually, I saw the Peloton use case up on the website and you're right, a very different experience rather than I bring my device, is it synced? Does it work with it? Really integrates those solutions. And you just brought up serverless, which is actually how I got connected to talk in Netlify. So, Matt, sorry, I think you wanted to jump in there but I was wondering if you could help us. I've looked at serverless and what the promise of serverless of course, is that I don't need to think about that underlying infrastructure. I just like developers build our applications. Well, feels like that's really the same mission that you have. And they're serverless is a piece of your story. So, maybe explain (indistinct) that out a little for us. >> Absolutely, I think it ties in, right? Basically, what we saw just from a architectural perspective was this approach of really decoupling front end and back end and so on and working in a new way that gave a lot of benefits to the inducers in performance and security and so on right? But on the other hand, early on, what we saw was that to adopt that approach, like developers had to deal with lot of different moving pieces like CICD, CDN. What to do about the API endpoints that didn't need to be dynamic, and so on. And as Netlify, what we saw was that we could give one intro and workflow for all of this and make it extremely easy for developers to work with this thing. And serverless plays a really important piece there, right? Because when Amazon pioneered AWS Lambda and took it to the world, right? I think the promise also for the front-end web developers of being able to simply write code and then not have to worry at all about where is it actually running? How are we scaling it? How are we operating it and so on, right? That's a really powerful promise, right? But at the same time, in the same way, what we saw earlier on was that for a front-end team to actually adopt serverless functions as part of the Jamstack, it introduced another level of complexity of now having to manage your serverless functions independent from your front end figuring out API Gateway endpoints for every one of them. And how about deployment pipeline for your functions layer versus deployment pipelines for the actual front end layer that's supposed to talk to those front ends. How about staging environments versus to production environments? How do you manage all that, right? So we saw that there was this inherent incredible potential, but also a lot of complexity, right? And as Netlify we saw that if we could give front end developers a web developers in general, an ene-to-end workflow, where they can work both with the front-end framework, write the code that will get deployed into the browser, but also just have a folder where they can write this serverless functions and then know that Netlify will take care of all of the wiring, right? When you open a pull request and get with new function we'll give you a URL on our globally distributed CDN where you can view both the whole front end, but also the function and sidestep sort of all of the complexities of linking together API Gateways, to functions of managing CICD pipelines and test environments and so on. And in the end, the serverless functions starts becoming a really important part of this Jamstack approach, right? Because you have this world where you have a front end that's often talking to many different APIs and services where again, some of your own and some other people's services. But really often you need some place to glue those together or to build your own custom API endpoint that talks to a couple of them and it has access to server site secrets and so on, right? And this idea of not having to suddenly operate and manage a whole set of servers and infrastructure just for that part of it, but simply just writing the code and then knowing, that you don't have to worry about the operation scalability or anything around that code. That's a really powerful paradigm. >> Yeah, that's one of the real challenges of the Cloud as you talk about the Paradox of Choice. There's so many ways to do things. Not necessarily... It's simple anybody... I was a blogger for many years and it was like, well, I'll just use the self-hosted WordPress, because I don't want to have to worry about that piece of it. Matt, I watched it you did a presentation talking about if I wanted to do WordPress hosted in a AWS that absolutely is not simple. I heard a podcast from one of your board members, Tom Preston Werner, talking about we need to be more opinionated. We need to be able to give more guidance to developers, maybe Chris if you could, how are we when the proliferation of choice, keeps increasing, making sure that people can... How do I make that decision tree? And how do we try to keep it simple? >> Absolutely, I mean, and I actually think that, that's a super relevant question, because you have a lot of choice as a web developer today. Front-end developers used to cut out Photoshop files and turn them into HTML, right? Now with the new advanced markup, and they have all these frameworks and flavors of JavaScript to choose between and there's these powerful build tools, And all those workflows and the browser can do everything you can imagine, right? And so yeah, there is a lot of choice out there, right? And I think, for Netlify what's extremely important is that we are opinionated in the right places. And so when it comes to, for example, a front-end tool and built tools and these things that web developers often face with having to choose between. Our role is to make it as simple as possible to use any of them. But also give you the opportunity of saying, well, this new paradigm allows you to actually mix and match, right? It allows you to use this tool for this property and this tool for this property and gives you a ton of flexibility. But still, come under one roof of a platform like Netlify. And I think that is very powerful. And so we also don't want to choose for you, we want to inform your choices and we want to make it as easy as possible to go and say, hey, these are my needs, what direction should I be going? And of course, we work with enterprise clients, so on migration services, and so on, right? And where we help them a lot with that. But if we locked down on a single flavor, or a single bill tool or a single front end framework, then we also limit the application of what we bring to market and we want to remain a little more open-ended there. But I think there's a lot complexity, a platform like Netlify is all about simplification. So all that wiring that Matt just mentioned, that at least goes, right? You don't spend hours configuring bondage caching and trying to find those edge cases, it just works. And that's a huge game changer for a lot of people, right? But there's definitely parts of the ecosystem that has a lot of choice. And we do our best to inform. And I think, under hand holding part, adjacent to that is the story of, well, do we then start using content management systems? Is this a whole new? Is it out with the old and in with the new? And I would say, you still have a lot of those needs, right? You still have non-technical people, for example, that needs to be able to update and create moves and content, and so on, right? And create content. And so you very often will need and an E-commerce solution or content management systems and so on. But what we're seeing there, is that we're speaking basically with every single major CMS out there. That are saying we're working on a headless system, or we already have a headless version, or we just gone full headless, that means that we work decoupled. So we don't no longer need to build the site. But we just provide like an independent source of content. And then it plugs into a platform like Netlify. So that can bring a lot of simplicity. And now you just have to maintain your content, but you don't have to worry about all the different environments and what is up to date and how does some of the infrastructure look like you press a button that commits to get a default preview, and it looks the same everywhere. >> I'm curious, what impact the current global pandemic has had on Netlify, and your customers. I saw you've got a COVID tracking project that you've done. But also now just there's different considerations when I think about what services I need to access from the web and what kind of connectivity the ultimate end user would have. So, what learnings have you had? What's involved there? >> In, obviously we, it depends a lot on, as Chris mentioned, right? The game circus is adopted horizontally across all kinds of areas and businesses and so on, right? So, we've of course seen businesses in sectors that are having a hard time and on the other hand, we've seen businesses and sectors that are exploding, right? We did immediately when the lockdown started happening and the pandemic started happening we set aside like a free plan for projects working in the space of tackling the information sharing around COVID and finding solutions and so on. And that was really interesting to see you mention the COVID tracking project, right? Which was a project like built a short time by small group of distributed incredibly talented front end developers and scientists and so on, right? And I think it was interesting to see that, how the Jamstack and our tooling and so on also really made it possible for them to build as a small distributed team the set of data information and tooling to a global audience, right? Seeing huge traffic peaks at time and just knowing that their architecture and our infrastructure could handle it for them. >> All right. Chris, I've got one, a little bit off to the side here. When I look at what Netlify is doing, you talk about having an open and independent web. And while we are fully supportive of that, we're a little concerned sometimes. If you look at what's happening across the globe, there's a lot of discussions. Will the internet actually fragment? Will certain countries wall off certain environments? Any concerns there? What do you look at? What are you hearing from your customers when you talk about that mission? >> It's one of the big challenges of all time, right? I think we all maybe took for given the Internet as the standard it became right? The way that you can publish without permission is pretty magnificent, right? And it would be indescribably painful for civilization if we lost that, right? And I think fragmentation is something that we all have to sort of worry around. From the way we see it, is that the web, the traditional monolithic approach, right? To which led to as a web that wasn't secure enough and wasn't scalable enough and wasn't performing enough and that's, for example, what opened the door for mobile applications, right? Where it just didn't make sense to pull in the UI every time you turn the page. So we ended up with a form that's it. We prebuilt the application, you download it, and then you speak to service for anything then atmosphere come up with it, right. And that makes perfect sense. That's basically the same architecture that we're bringing to the web a very large scale. Of course, the problem is that now there are gatekeepers there, right? There people, you have to ask for permission to publish and so on. And, and there are other attempts to say, "Hey, we need a performing web." And there's a very big players out there that say, "Let's come over and just..." Do we even need to call it the Internet? Can we just call it our company website? I'm not going to name any names here, right? But leading down, it's what we've called walled gardens, that are great for absolutely no one except for the company. And what we believe is that if you have a web that is secure and is scalable, and it's performant enough to justify at least the architecture maintaining and not having to run into any walled gardens and still say no, you don't need to use a handful of commercial platforms if you want to be heard rather than have your own web properties on your own custom domains, right? I think that's the part of the open independent viable web that we're fighting for. Basically, one that adopts and keeps adopting an architecture that is something that levels the playing field. And then they would also say, why Netlify? I mean, a few years before we started, like, try configuring your own CDN. And like that was reserved for the very, very large tech players. Now you can comment, you can literally click a button on Netlify, you get custom domain and ACS post process site that's globally distributed, automatically integrated into get. And that's on the premium plan. And so as a startup, you can level set together with everyone else and be available widely across the globe without performance issues, immediately. And so in that way, I'm also seeing that's a democrat sensation of performance, right? That means that, that's great. And for places where you see developing economies, where you often have brownouts, where you often can't depend on having viable services and is locally and so on, this idea of having he cover that and having something that's just automatically, you know what, don't even worry about it, because it's already ready to go in all these packets all around the world. That's a huge game changer. That's actually what we see a lot of adoption of the gems they can never find in those places as well. Guess that's just such a promise to the architecture. So, I hear what you're saying and I'm also very concerned about a fragmented web for political reasons as well across the globe. And from our angle, the way we fight for this is to make sure that it retains using an architecture that makes it accessible for me. >> Yeah, I heard many years ago, a friend of mine said, if you're a technologist it means that in general you are a technology optimist, which I definitely try to be. So, I love Chris how you've just brought in some of the potential opportunity Matt, I want to give you just... People out there they hear like oh, 5G is coming, it's going to completely change the world. Anything that you're seeing on your side as to real opportunities that we will see, just a step function in what your company is using. Jamstack, partnering with Netlify in your ecosystem. What are some of the early things that you see that are exciting you down the line for this? >> Part of it is simply like the whole ecosystem around the gem stalk growing up and the tooling, the APIs, the frameworks available around it, and the level of innovation that's triggered. And especially how it's triggering in... Especially how we're seeing like the potential for small, distributed teams to work together and build things with a global impact in a short time. And I remember a couple of years ago, we did a hackathon with together with freeCodeCamp. And of course, like since it was with freeCodeCamp, it was mostly like teams were mostly fairly new to programming and so on, right? It was pretty amazing to see what over a weekend with this architecture and with this tooling, with the vendors that were present there and helping out and so on, what the small teams could actually get done in a weekend, right? Like I remember the winning team had an app where the whole room would see an image on the main stage screen and then on their phone, try to place that image on the map and you would real time see how people ranked, how close they got and get a winner and so on, right? And that was all just from combining APIs and tooling, like history, like Netlify, like Honor Bee, like Google Maps, and so on, right? And I think, in some way we shouldn't forget just how much this kind of ecosystem of readily available APIs and services around this front end stake. It's allowing people to build things that years ago would have taken a very big team probably like a year to build, and suddenly you can have a relatively small group of relatively new programmers built something really impressive, right? So I think that's a trend we'll see continue accelerating And me and Chris are personally involved in advising and helping out a lot of these new startups in the space that are trying to bring new tooling to the world that makes more and more of these things possible and accessible. >> Well, Chris and Matt, I really appreciate you both joining such an exciting space. Talk about the cloud, agility and innovation, such a robust ecosystem. Thank you so much for joining. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> And I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for joining and look forward to hearing more about your CUBE insight. (soft music)

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's Cuban sites, powered by ET are in this breaking analysis, we want to accomplish three things. First thing I'll do is we'll recap the current spending outlook. Next, we want to share some of the priorities and sentiments and the outlook that we're hearing from leading tech execs that we've been interviewing in the past couple of weeks on the remote cube. And finally, we'll take a look at really what's going on in the market place, a little bit of a look forward and what we expect in the coming weeks and months ahead. Now, as you know, E. T. R was really the first to quantify with real survey data the impact of covert 19 on I t spend. So I just want to review that for a moment. This CTR graphic right here shows that results from more than 1200 CIOs and I T practitioners. That shows that they expect their I t spending how they're they're spending on the change in 2020 now, look at the gray bar shows a very large number of organizations that they're plowing ahead without any change. In overall, I spend about 35% now shown in the green bars before 21% of respondents are actually increase their budgets this year. And the red bars, of course, they show the carnage. Really, 28% of customers are expecting a decrease of more than 10% year on year. Now, as we've reported, the picture would look a lot worse were it not for the work from home infrastructure, offset by E spending on collaboration tools and related networking security. VPN, VD I interest infrastructure, etcetera. Now remember each year launched this survey on March 11th and ran it through early April. So it caught the change in sentiment literally in real time on a daily basis. And that's what I'm showing here in this graphic. What it does is it overlays key events that occurred during that time frame and what E. T. R did was they modeled and rear end the data excluding the responses prior to each event. So, of course, the forecast got progressively worse over time. But as you can see on the Purple Line. There was a little bit of an uptick in sentiment from the stimulus package, and it looked like, you know, there's another. It looks like there's another economic cash injection coming soon. Now, as we've reported, the card forecast calls for around 4% decline in I t spend from 2020. That's down from plus 4% prior to Corona virus. It's ER has now entered its self imposed quiet period for two weeks. But what we're doing here is showing some of the sectors that we're watching closely for big changes. We're gonna drill into these over the next several weeks. Now, of course, is we've reported we're seeing a substantial cut in I t spend across the board. Capex will be down. We would expect sectors like I t consulting and outsourcing to be way, way down as organizations put a lot of projects on the back burner. But there are bright spots is shown here in the green. One that we really haven't highlighted to date is cloud really haven't dug into that and also data center related services around Cloud Cloud, we think, is definitely going to remain strong and these related services to get connect clouds via Coehlo services and really reducing latency across clouds and on Prem, we think will remain strong. Now I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the learnings and takeaways from our conversations with CSOs over the past couple of weeks. One of the great things about the Cube is we get to build relationships with many, many people. Over the past 10 years, I've probably personally interviewed close to 5000 people, so we've reached out to a number of those execs over the last couple of weeks to really try and understand how they're managing through this cove in 19 Crisis. So let me summarize just some of the things that we heard. And then I'll let the execs speak to you directly first, of course, like tech execs, are there half full people perpetual optimist, if you will. It was interesting to hear how many of the people that I spoke with, that they actually had early visibility on this crisis. Why? Because a lot of our operations, we're actually in China and other parts of Asia, so they saw this coming to an extent, and they saw it coming to the U. S. And so you know, there were somewhat ready and you're here. They all had on air of confidence about their long term viability and putting their put their employees ahead of profits. But the same time, once they see that their employees are okay, they want to get them focused and productive. Now what they've also done is they've increased the cadence and the frequency of their communications. Yeah, and most, if not all, are trying to get back with a free no strings attached software and other similar programs. But the bottom line is, they really don't know what's coming. They don't know when this thing will end. They don't know what a recovery really is gonna look like when people are going to feel safe traveling again what the overall economic impact is gonna be. So I think it's best summarized to say they're hoping for the best, but planning for the worst. But let's listen to this highlight clip that we put together of five execs that I talked to along with John Furrier Melissa DiDonato of Susa. Frank Sluman, who had snowflake and he's formerly the chairman and CEO of service. Now Jeremy Burton is the CEO of a company called Observe. He used to be the CMO of Dell and EMC. Before that, brand products Sanjay Poonam as the CEO of VM Ware and ST ST Vossen heads up Cisco's collaboration business. Roll the clip. >>What keeps me up at night now and how I wake up every morning is wondering about the health of my employees, that a couple of employees, one that was quite ill in Italy. We were phoning him and calling and emailing him from his hospital bed. And that's what's really keeping me going. What's inspiring me to leave this incredible company is the people and the culture that they built that I'm honoring and taking forward as part of the open source value system. My first movers, Let's not overreact. Take a deep breath. Let's really examine what we know. Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's not try to project things that were not capable of projecting death hard because, you know, we tend to have sort of levels off certainty about what's gonna happen in the next week in the next month, and so on. All of a sudden that's out of the window creates enormous anxiety with people. So, in other words, you've got a sort of a reset to Okay, what do we know? What can we do? What we control, Um, and and not let our minds sort of, you know, go out of control. So I talk to are people time of maintain a sense of normalcy focused on the work. Stay in the state in the moment. And ah, I don't turn the news feed off. Right, Because the hysteria you get through that through the media really not helpful. Just haven't been through, you know, a couple of recessions where, you know, we all went through 9 11 You know, the world just turn around and you come out the other side. And so the key thing is, you said it very much is a cliche, but you gotta live in the moment. What can I do right now? What can I affect right now? How can I make sure that you know what I'm working on is a value for when we come out the other side. And when you know more code balls come along. I think you'd better reason about that with the best information you have at the time. I always tell people the profits of VM Ware wheat. If you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if you take a picture of that first, we will be fine. You know this to show fast, but if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit in a little mini games. We're gonna so, customers, How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this pool, and as a result they have to, you know, either order devices, but the laptop screens things were the kinds to allow work for your environment to be as close to productive as they're working today. I do see some, some things coming. Problem right? Do I expect the volumes off collaboration to go down? You know, it's never going to go back to the same level. The world as we know it is going to change forever. We are going to have a post code area, and that's going to be changed for the better. There's a number of employees who have been skeptical, reticent, working from home were suddenly going to say just work from home. Thing is not so bad after all. >>So you can hear from the execs who all either currently or one point of lead large companies in large teams. They're pretty optimistic now. The other thing that's Lukman told me, by the way, is he approves investments in engineering with no qualms because that's the future of the company. But he's much more circumspect with regard to go to market investments because he wants to see a high probability of yield from the sales teams before making investments there. I also want to share some perspectives that I've learned from small early stage companies, and we've all seen the Sequoia Black Swan memo and you might remember there onerous rest in peace, good times the alert that they put out in 2008. It basically they're essentially advising companies to stop spending on non essential items. By the way, another slew of society also somewhat scoffed at this advice, and he told me on the Cube, you should always stop spending money on non essential items. At any rate, I've talked to a number of early stage investors and portfolio companies, and I'll share a little bit of their play Bach playbook that they're using during this crisis, and it might have some value to the cut, cut cut narrative that you're hearing out there. I think the summary for these early stage startups is first focus on those customers that got you to where you are today. In other words, don't lose sight of your core. The second thing is, try to hone your go to market and align it with current conditions. In other words, paint a picture of the ideal customer and the value proposition that you deliver specifically in the context of the current market. The third thing is, they're updating their forecast more frequently and running sensitivity analysis much more often so that they can better predict outcomes. I e. Reset. You're likely best case and worst case models. The third is essentially reset your near term and midterm plans and those goals and re balance your expense portfolio to reflect these new targets. And this is important by the way, to communicate to your investors. When I've seen is those companies with annual recurring revenue there actually in pretty good shape, believe it or not, in almost all cases, I've seen targets lowered. But there are some examples of startups that are actually increasing their outlook. Think, Zoom, even those who is not a startup anymore. But generally I've seen resets of between 5 to 10% downward, which you know what often is in pretty much in line with the board level goals. And I've seen more drastic reductions as well of up to 50% now. So we've heard some pretty good stories from larger tech companies and some of these VC funded startups. Now I want to talk about small business broadly and what we're hearing from small business owners and also the banks that serve them. Look, I'm not going to sugar coat this many small businesses, as you well know, in deep trouble. They're gonna go out of business. They're laying off people on. There are a number of unemployed the aid package that the government's putting forth the small businesses. It's not working its way through the banking system. Not nearly fast enough, despite the Treasury secretaries efforts, The bottom line is banks don't want to make these loans to small businesses. Right now, there's too much that they don't understand. They're making no money on these loans they're being overwhelmed with. Volume will give you some examples. Bank of America, when the small business payroll program first hit signal that would Onley help companies with both ah banking relationship and an existing lending relationship with the bank UPS is another example said it was only gonna directly help companies with over 500 employees. And for small businesses, it was outsourcing that relationship to another firm, which, of course, meant you had to go through a new rectal exam, if you will, with that new firm. In a way, you can't blame the banks. They're being asked to execute on these programs without clear guidance on how they're supposed to enforce guidelines. And what happens if they make a mistake? Is the federal government gonna pull their guaranteed backing? What are those guidelines? They seem to be changing all the time. And what's the banks, liability and authority to enforce them? Why don't I spend time talking about this? Well, nearly half of US employees work for small businesses, and nearly 17 million workers as of this date have filed for unemployment, and I'll say the banks got bailed out in the financial crisis of 2008 and they need to step up, period, and the government needs to help them, all right. The other buzz kill data that I want to bring up is our national debt. Now many have invoked that there's no such thing as a free lunch, including the famous Milton Friedman, the Economist who I'm gonna credit. Others have said it, but I'll give it to him. Why? Because he espoused controlling the money supply and letting the market's fix themselves bailouts. The banks, airlines, Boeing, automakers, etcetera, those air antithetical to his underlying philosophy. Currently, the U. S national debt is $24 trillion. That's $194,000. Protects player Americans. Personal debt is now 20 trillion. Our unfunded liabilities, like Social Security, Medicare, etcetera now stands at a whopping 139 trillion. And that equates to about 422,000 per citizen. Think about this. The average liquid savings for US family is 15 K, and the U. S debt is now 111% of GDP. So we've been applying Kenzie and Economics for a while now. I'm gonna say it seems to have been working. Think about the predictions of inflation after the 8 4000 and nine crisis. They proved to be wrong. But my concern is I don't see how we grow our way out of this debt, and I worry about that. I've worried about this for a long time, but look, we're knee deep into it and it looks like there's no turning back so well, I'll try to keep my rhetoric to a minimum and stay positive here because I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. We're starting to see some some good opportunities emerging here just in terms of flattening the curve and the like. One of the things that pretty positive about is there gonna be some permanent changes from Cove it. It's kind of ironic that this thing hit as we're entering a new decade decade and as I said before, I expect digital transformations to be accelerated because of this crisis and the many companies that have talked digital from the corner office. But I haven't necessarily really walked the walk, I think will now I think is going to be more cloud more subscription less wasted labor, more automation, more work from home unless big physical events, at least in the next couple of years. So that's kind of the new expectation. As always, we're going to continue to report from our studios in Palo Alto and Boston, and we really welcome and appreciate your feedback. Remember, these segments are all available as podcasts, and we're publishing regularly on silicon angle dot com and on wiki bond dot com. Check out ctr dot plus for all the spending action, and you can feel free to comment on my LinkedIn post or DME at development or email me at David Volante Wiki. Sorry, David Vellante is silicon angle dot com. This is Dave Volante for the Cube Insights powered by CTR. Thanks for watching everyone. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. Palo Alto, California myth is a cute conversation. >>Hello and welcome to the cube studios in Palo Alto, California. For another cube conversation. We go in depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. It's a well known fact of life at this point in time. We're going to the cloud in some manner, way, shape or form. Every business that intends to undertake a digital transformation is going to find themselves in a situation where they are using cloud resources to build new classes of applications and accelerate their opportunities to create new markets that are more profitable. What folks haven't fully internalized yet though is what it means to govern those activities. What does it mean to use data that is in the cloud in a compliant and reliable way? What does it mean to allow rapid innovation while at the same time ensuring that our businesses are not compromised by new classes of risk, new classes of compliance issues as a result of making certain liberties, uh, with how we handle governance. So that's what we're going to talk about today and we've got a great conversation for you. Toby Knapp is a co founder and CTO of day two IQ and Charlie Betts is the principal analyst at Forrester. Toby. Charlie, welcome to the cube theater. All right, so Charlie, I'm going to start with you. I kind of outline the overall nature of the problem, but let's get it very specific. What is the problem that enterprises face today as they try to accelerate their use of technology in a way that doesn't compromise the risk and compliance concerns? >>Well, we are hearing the same story over and over again. Peter, uh, companies are starting on the cloud native journey and perhaps a dev ops journey. You know, there's some similarities there. You know, one leads to the other in many cases and they S they do a proof of concept and they do a pilot and they like the results. But both of those efforts had what from monopoly, we would call it a get out of jail free card. You know, they had a pass to bypass certain regulatory or governance or compliance controls. Now they want to scale it. They want to roll it out across the enterprise and you can't give every team a get out of jail free card. >>Well, let me dig into this because is it that the speed with which we're trying to create new things, is that the key issue? Is it that the new technologies like Coobernetti's lend themselves to new style that doesn't necessarily bring good governance along with it? What is, what are those factors that are driving this problem? >>I think the central factor, Peter, is the movement from stage gated governance to governance of continuous flow. We could unpack this in various ways, but really if you look at so many governance models and people ship them to us and we comb through them and it's getting, you know, doing a lot of out lately, what we see is over and over again, this idea that delivery pauses experts come in from their perspective with a checklist they go through, they check the delivery against the checklist, and then the Greenlight is given to move on. And this is how we've run digital systems for a long time now. But now we're moving towards continuous flow, continuous iteration, >>agile, agile, DevOps, >>dev ops, all the rest. And these methods are well suited to be supported by architectures like Coobernetti's. And there are certain things you can do with automation that are very beneficial in cloud native systems, but you're up against, you know, decades of policy that assume this older model is based on older guidance like ITIL and PIM, Bach and, and COBIT and all the rest. COBIT 2019 is still based on a plan build run model, >>which is not, is not necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things, but it doesn't fit into a month long sprint. >>It doesn't fit. And more and more what we're seeing when I say stage Gates are going away, what we're seeing is that the life cycle becomes internalized to the team. You still plan, build, run. But it's not something that you can put controls >>on at the high level. And so the solution seems to be is that we need to be able to foster this kind of speedy acceleration that encourages the use of agile, uh, leads to a dev ops orientation. And somehow fold good solid governance practices right into the mix. What do you think the, let's take a look at 2025, what's it going to look like? And uh, even if we're not ready for it yet? >>Well, I think you were going to govern a lot more at the level of the outcome. You're going to govern what not how as much, but there are a lot of things that still are essential and just basic solid good practice such as not having 15 different ways or a hundred different ways to configure major pieces of infrastructure. You know, there's a, in the, some of the reports, uh, the state of DevOps report that came out, there was a, uh, a note in there or a finding in there that it was best to let the developers have a lot of choice. And I understand that developer autonomy is very important, but every time a development team chooses a new technology or a new way to configure an ex, an existing technology, that's an expansion of attack surface. And I'm very concerned about that, especially as we see things like Equifax with the, uh, the struts exploit, you know, we, we have to keep our environment secure, well patched up to date. And if you only have one or two ways that things are configured, that means your staff are more likely to do the right thing as opposed to, you know, infinite levels of variation, you know, on a hundred different ways of configuring. Coobernetti's >>well, presumably we don't want the infinite levels of variation to be revealed at the business level and not down at the infrastructure level. I think one of the things that folks mean or folks aren't intending or hope to be able to do with digital business you're alluding to this is creating a digital asset, a software based asset because ultimately it's going to be more integratable, but you lose the opportunity to integrate those things if you're increasing the transaction costs by introducing a plethora of discordant governance models. Is that what you're seeing as well, Toby? >>Absolutely. And I think, uh, you know, some aspects of cloud native that make this problem a lot bigger is actually, you know, cloud native encourages sort of a self service model for infrastructure. And also we're seeing our shift, um, off, uh, power and decision making towards developers, right? So you have developers introducing a lot of these new stacks, often in a very, you know, sort of bottoms up, um, organic way. So very quickly and enterprise finds themselves with, you know, 10, 15 different ways to provision infrastructure to provision communities, clusters. Um, and often, you know, the teams that are in charge of governance aren't even aware of these things, right? Yes. So, uh, I think it starts actually with that and you know, how can we find, uh, this balance of giving developers the flexibility they want, uh, you know, having them leverage the benefits of cloud native, but at the same time making the folks that are in charge of governance, uh, aware of what's going on in, in their enterprise, uh, making them aware of the different stacks that are provisioned. Uh, and then finding the right balance between that flexibility and enforcing governance. Uh, there's ways to do that. Um, you know, there what we see a lot is, is, uh, waste, uh, people building one stack on cloud provider, a different stack on cloud provider B, a third stack, you know, at the edge or in their data center. And so when it comes to patching, security issues, upgrading versions, you know, you, you're doing three, five times the, the amount of work. >>Well, let me ask you a question because we can see that the problem is this explosion in innovation at the digital level, uh, that is running into this, uh, the, the stricture of historical practices. And as a result, people are in running governance. What is it, I mean, if I think about this, it sounds to me like the developer tooling is getting better, faster than the governance tooling. Where are we in the marketplace in terms of thinking about technologies that can improve the productivity on the governance side so that we can bring governance models to the developers so they don't have to make decisions at that level? >>Right. I think where we are in the market is, um, so obviously cloud native and Kubernetes specifically has seen rapid adoption Indiana price, right? And I think, um, you know, the governance and tools are just now catching up. Right? Right. Um, so the typical journey we see is, uh, you know, folks try out Kubernetes, they try out cloud native technologies to have a very good first experience. It's easy. And so they kind of, uh, you know, forget some of the best practices that we've learned over the years for how to secure a production stack, how to make it upgradable, maintainable, how to govern workloads and versions, um, because they'll still, schools just simply didn't exist. Uh, so far we're now seeing these tools emerge. Um, and, and really it's the same approaches that have worked for us in the past for, for running these types of infrastructure. It's, um, you're having a central pane of class for visibility. What versions am I running? Uh, you know, first being aware of what's out there and then you'll centralizing management of these, of these stacks. Um, how do I, you know, lifecycle manage my, my Kubernetes clusters and all the related technologies. Those are the tools that are just now showing up in the market, >>but it's also got to be, I presume that, uh, a degree of, uh, presuming that the tooling itself does bring forward good governance practices into a modern world. If I got that right. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is one of the key things that the updated INO team, uh, the infrastructure and operations and our, our view is that these become platform teams. So we've maybe relieved the INO term behind we go with the platform teams. This is one thing that they should be doing is creating reference implementations. You know, the, you know, here's your hello world stack and it's perfectly compliant. Go solve your business problem and leave the undifferentiated heavy lifting to us. You know, and this is I think, uh, going should be a welcome message. Uh, assuming that the stack is providing all the services that the developer expects. >>Well it certainly suggests that there is a reasonable and rational separation of duties and function within a business. So the people that are close to the business of building the function that the business needs are out there doing it. Meanwhile, we've got infrastructure developers that are capable of building a platform that serves as multitude of purposes with the specificity required for each workload and in compliance with the overall organization. >>There's a key message that I want to reinforce with the audience as we think about the future of INO. I, we've been thinking a lot about it at Forester. What is the future of the traditional INO organization? If I say infrastructure that implies application and I'm talking about a stack that doesn't go away, you know, there will always be a stack, a layered architecture. What is being challenged is, when I say operations, that implies dev and I'm talking now about a life cycle. That's what's merging together. And so well, the life cycle becomes something that is held internally within your feature or component team and is no longer a suitable topic of governance. Absolutely. In terms of the layered infrastructure, this is where we, it's still a thing, you know, because yes, we will platform teams, component teams, feature teams facing the business or the end user. >>Well, it's all back to the idea that a resource is a reasonably well bound, but nonetheless with the appropriate separation, uh, of, of function that delivers some business outcome. And that's gonna include both infrastructure at a software level, an application at a software level. So look, we, you spent a lot of time talking to customers about these issues when they come back to you. Uh, where are you seeing successes most obviously and why? >>Yeah, so where we see successes is where, um, you know, organizations, um, figure out a way to give developers what they want, which is in the cloud native spaces. Every development team wants to own their own communities cluster. They want to, it is their sandbox. They want to install their own applications on there. They don't want to talk to different team when they install applications. So how can you give them that while at the same time enforcing the standards that you need to, right? How do you make sure those clusters follow a certain blueprint that have the right access control rules? Um, you know, sensitive information like, like credentials are distributed in the right way. The right versions of workloads are available. Organizations that figure out how to do that, uh, they are successful at this. So the government from a central place, they have um, you know, essential pane of glass. >>Um, you know, like our product commander where they essentially set up blueprints for teams. Um, each individual team can have their own cluster. It gets provisioned with this blueprint. And then from the central place I can say, all right, here is what my production clusters should look like. Right? Here are the secrets that should be available. Here are the access control rules that need to be set. And so you find the right balance that way, right? You can enforce your governance standards while at the same time giving developers their individual clusters that development their staging of production clusters. >>And here's the options and what is an edible option and what is not. Right. Yeah. So it seems to me as if I, I mentioned this earlier, if I think about digital business, it's the opportunity to not only turn process, we're increasingly digitized process, but the real promise also is to then find ways of bringing these things together, integrate the business in response to new opportunities or new, uh, competitive factors or regulatory factors, whatever else it might be, and literally reconfigure the business quickly. That has to be more difficult if we have a wide array of, of governance models and operational principles. Trolley is, you think about customer success, uh, what does it mean for the future to be able to foster innovation with governance so that the whole thing can come together when it needs to come together? >>Well, I think that we need to move to governing again, as I said earlier, governing >>what not. How uh, >>I believe that, uh, you know, teams should be, should be making certain promises and there's a whole idea of the theory that's out there. A guy named Mark Burgess who is, you know, well known in certain certain infrastructure as code circles. So what are the promises that the team makes within the larger construct of the team of teams and is that team being accountable to those promises? And I think this is the basis of some of the new operating models we're seeing like Holacracy and teal. I think we're in very early days of looking at this. But you know, yeah, you will be held accountable for you know, objectives and key results. But how you get there, you have more degrees of freedom and yet at an infrastructure level, this is also bounded by the fact that if this is a solved problem, if this is not interesting to the business, you shouldn't be burning brain power on solving it. You know, and maybe it was interesting, you know, a couple of years ago and there was a need to explore new technologies, but really the effort should be spent solving the customer's problems. Charlie Betts, principal analyst at Forrester, Toby not co founder and CTO of D to IQ. Thanks very much for being on the cube. Thank you. Thank you, Peter, and thank you for joining us for another cube conversation. Once again, I'm Peter Burris. See you next time..

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the Q covered AWS executive summit brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the Excenture executive summit here at AWS. Reinvent from Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by two guests for this segment. We have Greg sly, he is the SVP platform and infrastructure at Verizon. Thank you so much for coming on Greg. Thank you. Happy to be here and almost sad. K he is the managing director, Accenture global network services. Thank you so much. I'm all so Greg, I want to start with you wanting, everyone knows Verizon, it's a household brand. Tell our viewers a little bit just about how big you are, what countries you're in your reach. >>Okay. Well we're a global company. There's about 135 ish thousand employees in the company. The brands and they're, you know, they include Yahoo and AOL and HuffPost and riot and others. So we have a much more global reach with some of those brands overseas for is obviously very well known in the U S and overseas as well. And that's really where our big plays are. Now. We're big in Asia as well with our eCommerce sites and stuff. So it's, it's, it's global and it's everywhere. So, >>so give our viewers an overview of this current state of where you are in your journey to the cloud, the cloud effication of Verizon. >>Sure. So the last probably two years we've really put a lot of focus into moving out of our data centers and into the cloud. We focused primarily on workloads that are right for the cloud because we as during this journey we went, there's obviously huge data lakes and huge amounts of data equipped over two exabytes of data. And trying to move that to the cloud is obviously takes some time. But a lot of our front end apps from anything from, you know, where your order, your phone or where you order services to, whether you're on Yahoo fantasy sports or on finance page, those, those things tend to work well in the cloud and they're built for the cloud for very bursty type workflows. So we spend a lot of time moving a lot of our applications plus all the new Greenfield applications up into the cloud. So we're, we're considerable way down the path now on that. We're now getting to the tail end with these kind of massive data sets on what's our next step for those. And that's what we're working on now. >>Um, well I want to bring you into this conversation a little. What, what are you seeing right now across cross industry, the current state of deployments? >>Yeah, so I mean, just building on what Greg said it's almost a third wave of cloudification that we see now. So you know that we had the desegregation of hardware and software and most operators started to go globally towards cloud and then they sort of had the second way, which was really the own private cloud infrastructures. And now because we are here, you can see clearly the amount of public cloud infrastructure that's starting to come in and become relevant to this deployment. So it's almost a third wave where I see a lot of our clients globally looking at hybrid cloud type models for. And >>that really accelerates that cloudification journey because now you see a lot of workloads moving to a hybrid cloud environment. Just by the size of the ecosystem of suppliers and partners that are involved. We give you a sense of how accelerated this has become. I mean, the last three years I've seen in this event doubling of the number of partners who are just moving their workloads, whether it's compute, storage network to a hybrid cloud in one. So that acceleration has started and we expect in the next two to three years this will become mainstream. That I'm always right. We're been down that exact same journey where we've, we've done a lot of things up into the cloud like in AWS now, but we've also done a private cloud which enabled us as more like a development or a on-prem tool that allowed us to build, learn, and take applications that were not really ready for the cloud, are native for the cloud, build them on prem, wherever, a little bit more freedom to do some things and then learn and then move them up to the public cloud. So we've been down that exact same journey. >>So I also want to ask about a buzzword here, five G five G the arrival of five G. what it means to your industry and whether or not being in the cloud is ness is a necessary prerequisite to really capture all the benefits. >>I'm going to start on me. Sure, go ahead. No, I was just saying if you look at 5g, the reason it's so fundamentally different from previous generations is because 5g opens up a bunch of use cases that traditional TG for genetics did not and the size and skin of those use cases including like billions of devices and having really cool use cases like gaming and health and automotive and robotics in 10 places a huge burden on an infrastructure, which means cloudification does become a massive requisite. The level of skill size devices, latency profiles is something you only get when you are on a cloud infrastructure. So Greg, I agree 100% and this is going to drive new innovation that we've never seen before as we obviously being Verizon. 5g is one of our big, big bats. Obviously. That's one of the things that Andy and Hans talked about yesterday at the announcement here at reinvent and where we're seeing now with clarification, it's, it's literally I think one of the cornerstones of how it's going to work because we're going to have to put so much out to the far edge and out into as close to the customers as we can. >>The only way you're going to do that is through the cloud and using the cloud services like outpost and other services to push that out close to the, to our customers. So 5g and cloud are synonymous. They're going to go hand in hand. It's the only way it's going to work. And when, if I just save one last thing on what Greg said, cloudification was happening anyways and it was a great efficiency driver for all organizations. Five G's almost come in and lit a match and said, here's a lot of revenue opportunities that you can get on top and that has just accelerated >>the whole thing with distribution of five G and cloud. So that that's going to happen. >>Yeah, I think we're really only seeing the beginning. It's so early on in 5g and the journey to the cloud that I think next year's reinvent and the year after that I think we're going to look back and say this was really just the very beginning of what we're learning, what this technology can do for the world. >>I want to ask about innovation and this is something that Andy Jassy talked about in his fireside chat this morning is how AWS maintains its startup mentality even though it is of course a enormous company. How does, how do you think about innovation and approach innovation at Verizon? How do you make sure you are continuing to experiment and push boundaries even though you are a large and complex organization yourself? >>It's a good question. That's something we are always pushing. I think it starts from the top with Hans, he's, he's made one of his key pillars of innovation, of what we have to drive, listening to our customers and building on what they need, but we've spent a lot of time on redefining how we work to adapt to the cloud. So the days of in the past of, you know, we'll do one release every quarter, it's now how many releases a day can you do? And the only way you can do that innovation through bucket testing, through AB testing is literally embracing the cloud and doing small tests here and there on stuff. So it's really now learning from the internet startups, trying to keep that startup mentality in a company the size that's 137,000 employees. But it's building that culture and I think Hans has been a great leader to really drive that, that different way of working. So, >>um, well we've seen a dizzying number of announcements from AWS, new products and new services that are coming out. What are, what is most caught your attention and how are you thinking about how to help clients capture the benefits of what AWS is offering? >>You know, the thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the keynote was this is probably the first time there is a recognition in the industry that it's an ecosystem play. And what I mean by that is a lot of the challenges that were seen in the last couple of years around getting 5g mainstream, getting all these things in the market was who does it, who supports them and this whole ecosystem and yesterday's announcement where you know Andy enhance and other carriers like water, phone and so on are coming in and saying, you know what? Let's do this together. Let's collaborate. To me that really hit the Mark because as you start building specific use cases to make this real for a consumer like us, you will see that an ecosystem plays the only way to make this a reality. And that's what really struck me. If you look at Waveland, if you look at local zones, all the announcements that were done yesterday, all of them require app development communities, escalates session partnerships. It requires hardware partnerships, services firms. It requires of omic Accenture to come in and do this secret sauce. So there's lot of things that have to >>be done there. And I believe that's what really caught my eye, that it's an ecosystem. Now you have the amount of collaboration going forward. Is going to be unprecedented because no one company is going to be able to do all of it. >>So how do we, you're both technology veterans. I mean you're just babes. You're, you're just teenagers of course. But thinking about how different it is today versus when you were just beginning your careers in terms of, I mean we have this idea of this cutthroat competitive world of technology, but as you said, there is, these companies need each other. I mean they're there, they're competing of course, but they also desperately need each other to make sure their business models are successful. So can you just describe this landscape for, for our viewers in terms of what you've seen as changes and whether or not these changes are for the good? >>Well, starting in the mainframe days, which is where I started and then kind of went wound, don't, you know, windows NT and the distributed compute, you're right, it was very do it ourselves. We're the only ones that could do it. You have to hide everything from all your competitors because we're providing a solution and nobody sees anybody else a secret sauce. And obviously protecting IP was key. Now we've seen open source take a much broader stroke across the canvas and we've also now everyone's got what are we best at and how do we use that rather than trying to be all things to everybody and building partnerships. So you're right, we have partnerships with company that we compete with, but we also have relationships. We need to work together to make this happen. So it is completely different from what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago on how you're collaborating on one part of a company who should come. >>Competing is one area, but you're actually collaborating to build a product to go to market together at another one. So it's really interesting. I mean the market forces have changed dramatically. I mean, I remember when I was in my telecom operator days with BT, we used to as great selling or love technology, we used to start in the labs and in the labs we use engineering was a sort of bread and butter. And then this focus on customer centricity in the last couple of years around so much choice, so much availability of solutions in the market. And as Greg said, the collaboration is a must do now. And that's why that focus changed for us. And I see now this customer centricity becoming so important that what does the end user really want? And then that comes with it and realization that says, okay, I am not able to provide this by myself, but I do know how to solve for it. >>And that's when you have to bring in others who can create a solution. You're absolutely right because you know, 10 years ago, 1520 years ago, technology was still so new. Most people weren't comfortable yet and really knew what it could do or what they wanted. And it was a room full of architects designing what it was going to be. Now it's a room full of customers telling you what they want and going out. So it's completely changed now where we'll build what the customer, what we think the customer needs. Now we're building what the customer tells us they want. So it's been a one 80 >>so Greg, I know before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about how you'd been to this conference years ago and now just the growth that it has experienced has really shocked your, your sphere system. Um, what kinds of conversations are you having? What are the messages that you're hearing, a particular letter that are particularly resonant to you right now? This idea of the fourth industrial revolution. Do you buy it? >>I absolutely buy it and it's not just drinking the Koolaid because I work at Verizon. It's actually seeing what's possible in health. What's possible in gaming, automotive industry. Like you were saying at the beginning, it's one thing that struck me in Pedder was through the conversation we were having of how many people I've met here and when I was walking through the expo downstairs I was like, Oh, we have a relationship with them now. We have relationship with them. There's like half the floor down there that we have some sort of relationship with that were other customer or a partner or providing services to that. It's, it's, it's changed where before you'd have a booth and you're like, how many people can we get over there? Now it's like how do we get a booth with our partners that we can talk about a common solution that we're providing back? >>So it's, it's been amazing from like it reinvent four or five years ago it was like one hotel was still pretty full up to like four or five hotels now with with 65,000 people or something. It's, it's amazing. But, but the conversations before too used to be, we can only talk if we go into a private room over here. It's now that there's so many people and so many conversations and they're like, Oh let me pull them all in. Let me pull Rebecca cause we're all talking about the same thing now. So it's become more open. There's still sure there's IP and things we have to protect and we all have our company strategies, but there's now there's so much collaboration, there's a lot more conversations going on now. I mean the focus will now move to how do we operationalize this industrial revolution because that's where a lot of engineering horsepower, a lot of scaling would have to happen in terms of, it would be great to launch health as a service or gaming as a service and all of these things. >>But you know when things go wrong, which Deville in the early years of adoption, somebody is going to have to take the call, somebody is going to have to manage the customers. Somebody who's going to have to, because that's where the test would happen in terms of okay this is going to stick and this is going to work. So to me the next two to three years of this event will be around how do I operationalize and scale what we've now started? Cause I think that's where the rubber is going to hit the road. And I think even at Accenture we see this with all our work. It's moving more and more towards how do I monetize the use cases, how do I now build on it? How do I implement at scale? So that's, that's really what I see happening >>coming up. We were, we're on, we're on the cusp of 2020 there's so many new emerging technologies and of course the old technologies which are still pretty new machine learning, AI, IOT. What are some of the exciting trends that you're looking at coming in next year and the next three to five years in terms of your business and an industry wide? Two ML? >>Well for me there's obviously the stuff that we're talking about with five G and waving, but one that really struck me at this conference was how we're going to be treating data differently or I should say storage of data differently. Where before it was like buy huge storage devices and you'd have petabytes and petabytes or exabytes of data in a data somewhere, data centers somewhere. It's now distributed out to the far edge. It's, it's going to be much more in the cloud, much more dispersed. Obviously that's going to bring challenges around, you know, with, with GDPR, with, with, you know, the, the California protection act, all of those that are coming as well of how we're going to deal with that. So absolutely the 5g and the announcements went on yesterday. But in my slice of the world, looking at how are we going to manage, transform, handle, distribute data and how we're going to protect user's privacy through all of that is really interesting. And I think a new field that we're, it's just changing so rapidly day to day >>and one that's really part of our national conversation too in terms of privacy and security. >>Well I think to me the key trend would be adjacencies. And what I mean by that is we've always been a little bit siloed traditionally in terms of, you know, there is a telco industry solution and then there is a mining solution and then there is a automotive solution, right? And the technology is blurring these lines. Now, you know, like as Greg said, I can have a intelligent 5g conversation with a gentleman, car manufacturing company that I wouldn't have dreamed of having a couple of years ago. So that trend is set to accelerate because 5g edge compute, all of these things are going to be more and more applicable to adjacent industries. And this is why I always believe the telecom sector has a pivotal role, almost a orchestrator role that says as these industries look for solutions we have those, we just haven't adapted and customized are social. That I think would be a big trend. I see other industries are going to cash in on what we've done. >>I'm all, Greg, thank you so much for coming on the cube. A really fascinating conversation. Oh, pleasure. I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit. Coming up in just a little bit.

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering KWS executive sub brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executives summit here in Las Vegas, part of AWS reinvent. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We're joined by two guests for this segment. We have Mamadou BA. He is the senior director of cloud technology at Anthem. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Mamadou and Sean mulch and Donnie, he is AWS security lead at Accenture. Thank you so much Sean. Thank you for having us. Rebecca, glad to be with you. So let's start with you mama. Do tell our viewers a little bit about Anthem, the business. >>Sure. So Anthem is a healthcare company. We're serving around 40 million members and we're committed to simplifying healthcare and make it more accessible and affordable for people. >>So committed to simplifying healthcare, which is, I'm imagining the driving force for your cloud journey, but, but what were some of the other factors that led you to the cloud? It's >>really, we want to make healthcare more accessible for people and more affordable. We want to meet our consumers where they are and meet them using mediums that they want us to use. So it's going through all the data we have. We have 40 million members who serving today looking at the data and find the ways to build customized and personalized experiences to meet them where they are and how they want to be met and also improve to health care for them. >>So what kinds of personalized customized experiences are you talking about and what does the cloud enable? >>So really when you look at, we have a variety of members, young children to adults and people who are Medicare and Medicaid, they have various needs. When you look at people's medical needs, you look at their financial needs, their social needs. What works for me might not work for your, might not work for him. So it's understanding the person as a whole and meeting them where they want to be a mentor really. >>So Sean, how does does, does Accenture, what does Accenture bring to this partnership? How are you helping Anthem realize its goals? >>Sure. So, I mean, I would say this happens under the guise of cloud and at Anthem broadly as well. Right? So Accenture, Anthem is, has Accenture is one of its largest partners. We're proud to be one of, have Anthem is one of our largest clients of course, and all the way from a lot of the outsourcing operations from the business operations side providing cost-effective business operations for addressing all those millions of subscribers that they have to of course helping them innovate both within cloud, within a lot of their other technology needs on premise from a lot of, they're from a lot of like transformations in technology. That's, I would say that covers the gamut specifically within, I'd say where we're helping both strategically and operationally on a strategic front. This includes mapping some of the business needs to um, how to various cloud technologies, uh, where it's a multicloud and a hybrid cloud approach, but also specifically on AWS and, and also about how we can help empower Anthem to realize its cloud journey and potential there with their workforce. >>We, their cloud technology organization and how we empower that movement going forward. Uh, there are a number of other drivers on the operational side and that includes of course, minimizing any future technical debt. Um, and that's, that's a big journey of course, or a big pattern. I would say that that is prevalent across multiple clients, but also realizing comprehensive monitoring, save preventive guardrails for services that then allows developers to have the freedom to experiment, to enable rapid prototyping. And also of course, uh, transparent, uh, operations from a cost perspective. So these would be a couple of ways. >>So mama, do you talk about the ways in which you are innovating in this cloud space? What are, what are some of the most exciting projects that you're working on? Right. So >>we have a, a large number of projects, but NTM as a whole, since we're serving 40 plus million members, we have thousands of applications, petabytes of data. So some of the projects we're working on today, we have a landing zone on AWS and we have some applications in AWS. What we need to meet our application teams. Also internally, we need to help them focus on the business drivers focused on healthcare. So we're working on providing them a nimble platform so they're not worried about day to day it and providing them a self service catalog. And we understand that there's a lot of complexity in healthcare or when you have all this data you need to make sure it's secure. There's a lot of regulatory challenges, so we don't want our application teams to have to deal with all those things. So it's really putting together, identifying the services, AI services, machine learning services, container and serverless, and building a framework for them to have access to all those services that are preapproved and make those self-service for the application teams. >>So that's our service catalog project and allowed them to use all that in an AWS account where they're self sufficient. So we were working closely with Accenture on their end. What we found was while the technology is very valuable, the people and process aspect of it, it's we have to get alignment across all the internal divisions, working closely and bringing our security teams on the table, our data teams, our operation teams, and working together to say how can we empower our developers internally to focus on business deliverables? So building that catalog, provide them a reference, a provider for reference architecture or reference implementation, identifying skills gaps and recognizing them, working with HR to hire new talent and reskill our existing talent, but also leveraging our partners to bring in that talent and give us various ways of looking at the same problem. >>So I saw you Shawn, nodding along with what a lot of mama do was talking about in terms of the alignment. Can you talk about that challenge and how you work with clients to make sure that you are bringing people along? Because the people and the processes are the most important part, but they're often the hardest part too. >>They're are definitely the hardest part. And of course we, I mean behind every grade success story, there's so many challenges, right? And, and one of the things we do of course is not just try to bring our best people that are technically sharp for Anthem, but that understand the client that understand the business needs. For example, it's not just about technology, but it's also about how it's applied to support certain business operations like mergers and acquisitions or as a strategy grows from one cloud to multi-cloud. So it's about bringing those folks that help align or understand those goals organizationally and how they're realized technically. In addition to that, I would say it's also bonding very, very, very closely with leadership, with architects, with operations personnel and the developers and engineers at Anthem to work side by side and realizing many of these goals or many of our shared goals and Anthem's overall vision. And >>the good thing there is really the cloud is aligned with the corporate strategy. So there's a lot of leadership alignment. And what we found is really trying to find that balance between autonomy and alignment. One, the teams to be autonomous. We're providing them with self-service, want them to innovate and get to market quickly, but we also want them to be aligned with the company and enterprise best practices and regulatory standards, so it's a fine balance, but I think we're making great progress with our partners. The processes are being reevaluated. Every process we were saying because we've done it this way for all these years and we were successful at doing it, doesn't mean that that's the way forward. We want to bring everyone together and think of a process holistically, not this is my team, I'm doing this and passing it to the next team. It's bring your best people and let's solve the problem together. >>Right. At the same time, I would say it's not siloed again between say architecture, operations and security either before or after. It's about bringing, I would say these, these three legs of that stool together or are together throughout the process and I think that's something we've done as well. One of the things we've done is establish a tiger team essentially right for to, to power through some of our challenges as we build out a new landing zone. As we move towards implementing some of these self capabilities and plan for migration of I would say a hundreds or potentially thousands of applications to the cloud. It's about getting security to shape policy, getting buy in from there as well. Ensuring that when design decisions are made from an architecture perspective, we take into consideration not just the operational side of Anthem but the operational arm of Accenture that supports and enables some of that work as well and how we can make that their lives easier and how we can make a, minimize any risks of the business, any disruptions, outages, et cetera, by way of good design and by getting their buy in and making sure that every internal stakeholders are, >>yeah. Yeah. Really our um, our emphasis is on quality by design, by bringing the right stakeholders, help architect it properly, and then have some process control and monitoring in place and having some key metrics that we look at. How long is it taking a developer to get an AWS account? How long does it take them to get access to a service that they need to meet? That business function letter is an AI service or a server less the application that they're trying to build. Evaluating those and then trying to improve our process >>and by keeping everyone in the loop, I mean it's this dynamic process that is that I'm sure is very complicated, but by with everyone on the same page, they then feel more engaged in the process and that they matter more, which, which also I'm sure drives productivity. Yes. >>Times w whenever you have a lot of people, sometimes there's no agreement on the decision, but you have to be at a point where when you come to an agreement, you might not have a hundred percent consensus all the time, but if 70 or 80% agree, the other people still feel included, their needs have been heard, their concerns will be addressed one way or the other, and they're willing to move forward with the group. It's not because I didn't get my way. I'm not supporting the business. They understand that and there's some trade offs. >>So I wanted to, I want to switch gears here and talk a little bit about security because health health care data represents some of the biggest security breaches of industry data. So how, how biz cloud infrastructure and your security processes and practices help help counteract that. >>Sure. So before you even get in the account do account is designed to meet all our Hampton security best practices and are based on our AWS agreement. Those best practices listed on there and working with our partners to make sure that by the time you get in an account, it's secure, you only have access to services we gave you. And for each of those services we do a full analysis on it, look at the various attack patterns. For instance, I do encryption and just ensure that the developers have a safe environment to experiment and develop. That's why we're building the self service catalog. It's a self service, but we put the services in there after we evaluated them, we feel comfortable with them. Some services, let's say some HIPAA eligible services. We want to ensure if your application is a HIPAA applicate eligible application, you, you're using those services, so having to control them process in place before you even get to account once you get it. And we have detective and preventive controls in place to alert us in case of any, anyone trying to use a service they're not supposed to use. >>Sean, I want to ask you about some research that Accenture did in 2017 the healthcare industry will be one of the top two industries to face the most digital disruption and the next three years. This was part of the technology vision survey. What, how, how do you even begin to to talk to clients through this, hold their hands through this enormously disruptive period in the healthcare industry. What's your advice and what do you think about the role of big data and analytics going forward? >>Right, absolutely. I think so. There's definitely a tremendous amount of disruption and then it's where a number of large, some of our large clients enterprises really have to go through their own transformational process, their own disruption process for the better, right. As you have a number of different start ups as you have a number of different new entrance into the field and one of the things they cloud technologies do is oftentimes it's not necessarily a first mover advantage, but it's, it's actually the lowest common denominator that if you're not using some of these services, whether it's the predictive capabilities for example, or some of the other analytics capabilities that are offered. So whether it's predict, whether it's Sage maker, et cetera, within AWS and other capabilities, these are really the new foundation and so many companies either no matter of size are actually leveraging these to build for a better experience. And one of the things we are looking at is how we can work with our clients to actually get them there as soon as possible and or use that again as the lowest common denominator and build their own differentiators bill bring to bear some of their experience throughout. Uh, I would say a years potentially decades been valuable experience products of services and actually turbocharge them for lack of a better word, >>mamma do large scale cloud transformation, innovation. This is a monumental challenge. How do you, but it's also a balancing act. How do you make sure that you are balancing the needs in adjacent areas like applications and onboarding and dev ops? How do you, >>so it's, it's really having that alignment and everyone understanding that this is a part of our corporate mission. We're trying to improve health care and reduce the cost, make it more affordable, improve people's lives. So all the teams that are leaders are coming together. Like you mentioned, we have a cloud tiger team and saying for my business unit or my application teams, these are the capabilities I need to support on AWS can do enterprise build up platform for me so I can focus on my business. So it's bringing people together, understanding where they are. Some application teams are more mature than others. Finding really ways to understand our internal customers. Also because we have many application teams and business divisions and having a process while working with, you can have application migration, we can help you migrate to the cloud, but that's not the goal. >>We want to help you understand the services you're using. It's enabling the application teams and providing them with a reference architecture or sometimes reference implementation team. We have a cloud enablement team for instance, where it's an internal consulting group where you go in and say, this is my application, helped me find the best way to move this application to cloud and the best way to improve it over time. So it's bringing everyone together and working closely with HR, the training teams, the vendor management teams, there's, it's almost everyone has to come together to scale this. If it's one team, it's easy to do it, but when you want to make it enterprise wide you have to really scale it and have the leaders aligned. Everyone contributing to it. It is all about alignment. >>It is. It is. It definitely is. Great. Yeah. Just wanted to comment earlier about the piece on security as well. Right, so we talked about, of course he talked about mama was talked about the service catalog, service introduction, so one of the things we do is as part of that alignment, getting everybody's thoughts in terms of how we see this working. Looking at that picture holistically, also looking at what is the, what is the consumer experience? Was the desired experience, is that how do we secure that? How do we make sure that it's frictionless and internally, how does that translate into all of the giving the developers freedom and having those guard but still having some guardrails in place as well as some comprehensive visibility and monitoring. There are about a good dozen services if not more, that provide different points of data metrics, alarms within AWS, but how do we do all of this at scale, at Anthem scale, and then back to the self service perspective. Not just enable security and as part of the organization to monitor, but how every part of the organization is accountable for ensuring security, be it an application team, be it part of the dev sec ops process, be at the networking teams, infrastructure teams, et cetera. So how is everybody informed and how do we bring that level of self service, not just from an application onboarding or migration perspective, but also from a security perspective. >>Yeah. Yeah. It's all about really enabling the application teams also because we can tell you you need to do these five things before you go to production, but if you don't know how to do them, you will not get to production. Instead of doing that, providing you some references, providing you have people you can talk to that can help you go through that. And everyone collaborating as let's help this application team get to production instead of we need to do these things before we approve you. Great. And they're from an alignment perspective. Again, we've gotten folks from cloud strategy, operating model and governance, architecture, um, operations, the actual network team, uh, in different parts of security. Yeah. Database of course, database, data, warehouses, et cetera. And then different parts of security, be it all the way from encryption, key management, the preventive side of things to more of the operational side as well. >>And how all of these folks come together with, if I may add some fantastic executive support on the end in front, um, across, across our board, um, to make things a reality. And I think it's been, we didn't, we didn't start with that model. We did that model out of necessity because when we started our cloud journey, we did have multiple teams taking care of their area. They did their job properly, but then there were some tickets waiting in queues. And it was when you look at the end to end process, it was slowing down the application teams. So we said, how do we help accelerate this stuff? Let's bring everyone together. Not, I did my work and I'm giving it to the next year, but let's collaborate and make sure we're doing the work as one team. >>Well, mama do. Sean, thank you so much. I've really fascinating conversation about re-imagining healthcare and how the cloud helps us do that. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit coming up in just a little bit.

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS executive summit brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back and good morning. Welcome to the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit here at AWS reinvent. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by pre-saved Sanker and he is the senior managing director global lead intelligent cloud infrastructure. Welcome back on the queue. Thanks so much for coming on. And Larry soccer, global managing director infrastructure services domains and strategy. Thank you so much. So we're talking today about hybrid cloud, the best of both worlds. As we say on the cube. It's a multicloud world. But I want to start with you Prisaad. What is driving clients to move to the cloud? What are you hearing from CEOs? What keeps them up at night? >>So I think, you know, you've got to a point with our clients where they're really trying to get the power of the cloud to the enterprises. So there are multiple things that they're trying to do. First, they're trying to really get the innovation that cloud provides in driving their digital transformation. The second is taking advantage of the cost savings that cloud can provide. So there are multiple aspects of how they use cloud. The first would be using SAS type applications. So for example it is faults.com or Workday and things like that. The second is using the power of providers like AWS really to drive what they can do from cloud native perspective in building new applications. And the third is just taking existing applications that aren't legacy and either re hosting them or refactoring them as an adjusting them to some extent and then hosting them on again, clouds like AWS. So that is a multiyear journey that all our clients are on. And you know, as Accenture we're helping them identify what needs to go first, what needs to go next and help them in that journey. >>And what is, what is the compelling force? Is it that they want to save cut costs? Is it that they want to be more innovative and they view this innovation in the cloud as the key to it? >>It's a combination of both. It's innovation is absolutely number one. Secondly, it is speed to market. The ability to get your product out there very quickly is second and the third is at the end of the day, you know data centers are going to go away and we're going to all recite in the cloud in some form or fashion, whether it's public or private. And which is why this whole topic of hybrid and multi-cloud is becoming so important today. >>So Larry, why hybrid cloud though? Why? Why can't we just go all in on private and public? Sorry. >>Interesting. I mean the, the real driver and Prisaad touched on it there. The real driver to get to, to AWS and to, to the hyperscalers really is around the innovation cycles. You know the passes, the services that they can do and that drives innovation. The speed to, to get there as important, it gives you a way of quickly scaling, which you know, if I really want to build out an application fast, a great way to get there and is obviously the consumption economics. How do I shift from cap ex topics? So that's driving the cloud native that push into, into the wallet of public. At the same time, our clients do have a number of requirements that really make them look and rethink and figure out how to evolve their data centers first. The first ones were regulatory, so you think about when you were the pharmaceutical GXP compliance, HIPAA in the healthcare side of things, you know, GDPR, so I've got companies that regulate that regulatory. >>What was perceived as a barrier, particularly in some of the more difficult regulatory environment and while the public providers are really evolving and starting to get better regulatory posture is at the same time a lot of our clients were making investment and decide, Hey, how do I really build my private cloud? I'm another big driver that people continue to look at private clouds, whether they're in their data centers or increasingly moving Nikolas is to scale up architectures like high terabyte HANA. If I want a 64 terabyte HANA deployment, while while the AWS footprints get bigger and bigger, sometimes just performance and tuning for those high scale an environment is a big deal. Article article racks, a great example where it's not only do you have something in a highly tuned environment but be given, given some of the licensing arbitrage stuff, it makes it extremely difficult. >>And in a big part of it is data gravity. If I've got these big data sets, if you think about fraud analysis in Hadoop clusters for credit card processing, where I've got high terabyte HANA database, I've got 20 or 30 applications that need to access that data. I can't really put it over a wide area network due to latency. And you know, the cost of moving data around. So what you ultimately end up with is applications clustered around lakes, big pockets of data. And I think that's where we're ending up. And that will be across a hybrid architecture. So that's, we call it, you know, as you look at balancing your apps and your data across public private solutions. That's why we view hybrid as the way that most of our clients are going, given the scale and the amount of applications and data they have. So that's what we refer to as the best of both worlds for hybrid. >>So I saw you nodding a lot. Allow what he was saying for sod. How do you, I mean, as you said, it's a balancing act in terms of how you set your strategy. How do you recommend companies go about thinking in terms of how they allocate their, their cloud? >>Yeah, so I think, you know, we have particular really, really take an application centric approach. Um, you know, I'll go back a couple of years, uh, when our clients were really looking to, uh, really use the public cloud and then they've signed up with one or more public cloud providers and then they, you know, move some applications and then some of them have actually taken a step back. In fact, there's a very global investment bank that I've been working with, um, who, who are taking that approach initially. And now what they've done in working with us is taking a very application centric approach. So we studied their entire suite of applications, understand from a regulatory perspective, from a compliance perspective, from a perspective of security. And this is a global bank. So there are different rules in Europe versus the United States. And so on. So based upon all that we come up with an approach on ward should reside in a private cloud as opposed to orchard resided in a public cloud. >>And you know, obviously there are multiple providers that are reasons to go with more than one cloud from a public perspective, et cetera. So we advise them on that. And then once we're able to do that, then we chart the journey on, you know, what application gets moved and when, and certain applications are very important to them from a performance perspective and they need to scale up and so on. So in those cases, you know, we treat them differently in certain other application cases, you know, we moved them onto a pass and in some other cases, you know, we just move these application into new what's available from a SAS perspective. So really it's a very much an application centric approach on where the workloads, >>is it a living and breathing thing. I mean, we talk about cloud being this journey. It's not a destination. Does this change over time? I mean, it absolutely does. I mean, it's constantly evolving. You know? Did you date or patterns are coming out there? And it was interesting like if you have, a couple of years ago, all we talked about was the app. How are you going to modernize this six or seminars when you get re-imagined in there. But all of a sudden a lot of the conversation shifting, shifting to my data strategy, where did this data reside? Particularly as the data sets get larger and that's moving from what was very centralized in the public data centers into much more distributed architecture. So we see it evolving very quickly. And even with a single application, a great example with a global hotel, they had a reservation system that was strategic application running on an old IBM mainframe. >>They were finding it was just taking too long to get innovative and agile to really support the new mobile applications, their web channels. So they looked at the, Hey, if I were just re-imagine, rewrite this, you know, go put it up in Amazon hot, how long would it take? How much would it cost? They found it was even going to be two or three years and they didn't have the luxury to wait, so they basically wrap that application with API APIs. They expose it with microservices and then developed a cloud native front end with the database cache new technologies that they can now drop every three or four days. They can now get a new mobile application, so you've got agile delivery, they've still got the legacy stuff there. The data's still there now. Now when you go against their web and mobile application, you, you're actually browsing against that new cloud native, you know the database cache. >>When you look at rates and rooms, et cetera, it's only when you transact and reserve the room that it goes back to the main frame. So you agile delivery, they get a lot of the benefits there and then they can offload a lot of the processing on the mainframe. It's only read all the reads up front now and slowly deprecate that over time. Now they, they're now that very interesting hybrid deployment architectures. They, they have a container approach. This database caches, they have two clusters. Those containers running on private cloud, on VMware, and then one running in AWS so they're now can optimize across the public and or hybrid footprint. You know how they do this over the time they then look to evolve that application and started an introduce serverless. So starting to take advantage of Lambda. So there even within a single application you can see it's constantly evolving. They starting in an advantage of the next evolution. So the next one to move beyond containers into more serverless. >>So I mean you both have just given me terrific examples. Your years in financial services, years as a, as a hotel chain. How do you develop best practices? I mean when you're working with clients or really is it case by case? I mean you talked about the decisions and the allocation of cloud. Of course there are regulatory constraints for each company, but are there industry wide best practices? Absolutely. Absolutely. >>I do want to hear, sure. So I'll start with financial services as an example. So if you take the world of banking or insurance, there's obviously, you know, regulatory requirements, compliance requirements that they have to look at. And also if you look at, for example, in banking, a lot of it is very mainframe based. You know, they have very old core banking systems, which is not possible to really move all of that onto public cloud necessarily. And maybe the business case isn't even there. So we have to take a digital decoupling type of approach and figure out, you know, how do we take some of the best bits and then put that on public cloud while still keeping some of the major amount of data is still on the legacy side. So I think it's really an industry specific approach, which on top of which you have to layer on what the local requirements are. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I spent a lot of work with the life sciences department ceuticals and GXP compliance rules the day there. So how did they start to, they started off, you know, how do we get to private clouds that look and feel a lot like public and then start to move and test the test the waters as they start to migrate into the AWS as a little world. So it is very regular industry specific. So we've, we basically developed a library of this is how you know, this is how you solve for banking, you know, the retail bank on a mainframe, how do I do similar pattern to that hotel front ends. Reinsurance is actually very similar to a lot of, lot of the logic on mainframe. It doesn't make sense to rewrite. There's not enough value in that if I can wrap it in microservices and move out. So that clouds, I mean their roadmaps, obviously every given the scale and complexity of our clients, everyone's going to be slightly different. But they're patterns that are very industry specific. And it gets getting even more interesting as we start to get in, move into IOT and edge. Because when you get into like the, the connected oil and gas or connected mine, all of a sudden it becomes extremely verticalized in industry and industry. >>So the hybrid Creek solves a lot of problems, but I imagine it also creates some other challenges too. What are the challenges and how do you counteract them? Do you want to start Larry? >>Yeah, sure. I mean it's not just hybrid. I think it's, we have much more complex architectures. So with all the power of digital decoupling, you know, creating microservices architectures, being able to pick best of breed services as everything becomes much more dynamic and ephemeral. So we moving for a world where a server in a virtual machine would be up for like 12 months or 15 months to containers that have lifespans of minutes or hours or even seconds now managed in a much more dynamic way with Kubernetes. So that that hotel was 15,000 containers managed by Kubernetes optimized over that environment and even more with serverless. So you've got a very complex environment to manage. And I think as our clients start to really evolve that the application portfolios, you know, SAS cloud, native wrapping legacy, the ability to then seamlessly manage across that environment and optimize and, and even the optimization in the old days we used to optimize around one or two dimensions was a cost or performance and SLA is now we've got to simultaneously take this very complex environment and optimize across performance, service levels, security, compliance and cost. >>So it's not just about cost optimization and they offset each other. If I'm optimizing for performance and service levels, my cost probably goes up. So it becomes a very complex problem. So spend a lot of time looking first. First starting with the operating model, you'd got to operate differently. How do you really get dev sec ops involved so that operations and security baked in, right? When you do the analysis so you're not building something that can't be secure operated and then really transforming the people, right? I mean the one of the hardest thing and place where our clients struggle the most is how do they upskill their organization, change the culture, the behavior. Because great example is we look at how we operate cloud and infrastructure. We want to turn all operators from eyes on glass looking at consoles into developers who are writing the next analytic algorithms to figure out predictive operation, to doing the automation script, to take, to remove mistakes, streamline drive agility, and reduce costs. And ultimately to tune the AI engines that are going to need it to do that. Complex optimization across very, very, very complex architectures. >>So you're talking about the people and the change management. I want to ask about innovation within Accenture and AWS. We heard Andy Jassy this morning in his fireside chat talk about how the company is now obviously a ginormous company, but how it really still has this startup mentality and how and how and what he does to ensure that innovation is still a priority, a relentless focus on the customer, de-centralized nature of the organization. Really focusing on what you're good at, knowing what's in your wheelhouse, how do you think about innovation and hadn't then how do you help clients make sure that they are bringing people along and as you said, give, giving them the sort of developer mindset. Do you want to, >>yeah, so that's absolutely important for us, innovation is very much part of our culture. When I look at my own group, which is intelligent cloud and infrastructure, what we do is we have 30,000 people who are working everyday at our clients and in many ways they understand the client's landscape even better than anybody else because they're working there every day. So some of the things that we do with our clients, our innovation forums where our people bring forward ideas to suggest to clients. So this is something that we do on a regular basis, take it to our clients, CEOs, and invariably several of these ideas actually get put into their whole plan for the following year. So we go innovate with our clients. We've created several digital studios and liquid studios in multiple locations. We've got several of them across the globe. So we bring our clients in for design thinking workshops, suggest ideas and you know, and await with them on things that we can take forward. >>Yeah, and just just to further that, I mean we've always driven it an innovation agenda. We always try and figure out what's next, where do we invest? What's the next bet? I mean, even going back to our cloud first days, I mean we've always been pushing the envelope. I think what Prisaad hit on is a really a step change for us in how we engage. I think in the past we'd come in as the consultants present, et cetera. And I think our clients are bright people. So actually engaging with them and more design thinking. I, we acquired a bunch of digital studios, Fjord and stuff, and I think they've infused this culture of coasts, co-sourcing, collaboration, and creating together. And the dynamic just changes and it's fantastic when the client then is in the room. They own it with you, they close, co-creating. And I think we've been spending a lot of time on how do we transform how we interact and engage with our clients in a much more collaborative way. And it's really changed the changes your relationship with them >>and the technology enables that to Larry and Priscilla, thank you so much for coming on the cube. A really great conversation. Thank you, Rebecca. I'm Rebecca night's stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit. Coming up in just a little bit.

>>Bach from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS executive summit brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. We are part of AWS reinvent. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by two guests for this segment. We have Prisaad Sanker and he is a senior managing director global ICI lead. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Personal and Larry soccer, global managing director ICI offerings. Thank you so much for coming on Larry. So present to minister with you this week marks the one year anniversary of intelligent cloud infrastructure, a group that you lead at Accenture. Tell us a little bit more about, about, first of all why this group was formed and the journey you've had this year, the highest, the highs and lows. >>Sure, sure. So first, first of all, thank you for having us. Um, so as you mentioned, December 1st will be one year of having formed this group. And the reason we did that was because all of our clients are going through a journey of digital transformation. And it's very important for us to be able to support that journey. So there are different elements that we have to bring together around cloud as well as infrastructure. So we brought together this group, which was actually in different parts of Accenture as one particular group, and we call it intelligent cloud. And infrastructure consists of 30,000 people pretty much in every part of the world supporting all different industries. And this is a way for us to bring together not just cloud computing, but also areas like networking, workplace, digital, other digital businesses that we need to be able to support in order to be able to help our clients through their journey of transformation. >>So this, this group was formed at a time of tremendous change and upheaval and the landscape. Talk to us a little bit about, we hear so much about digital transformation, our company's ready. What's the, let us into the client mindset. >>Yeah. So what happens is, you know, different industries obviously are progressing at different speeds. All of our clients are always worried about being disrupted within their industries, either by an existing competitor all by a completely new competitor that doesn't exist. You know, all the stories about, you know, the big companies that existed and almost vanished overnight. So that's something that keeps CEOs and CIO is awake at night just worrying about that. And so digital transformation is very important for them to be relevant to their client. It's all about bringing new products to their clients and also the speed with which they can actually do that. It's no longer enough to be a fast follower. You have to be an innovator. And cloud is the way that this innovation will happen for our clients. And so it's very important for us to be able to bring our group together. We are able to support that journey for our clients. Leary >>want to bring you into this conversation a little bit. It'd be what will be required for enterprises to make this big transition. I mean, he was talking about how you need to be an innovator. You can't just be a fast follower. >> Well, I mean a lot of times I look at it just given the size, the scale of most of our clients who are really up market, most of them don't have the option to just do a rip and replace and just reinvent themselves completely. So it really is how do I very rapidly modernize and transform my business to take advantage of it? And it really needs to start with your application landscape and end data. So how do I start to look at all the possibilities of the AWS is and start to re-imagine, reinvent Duke, use cloud native technologies. Also a significant amount of their estates are already running in legacy environments. >>We get the mainframe or other environments. How do you digitally decouple those so that you can extract value out of that? And ultimately those decisions of apps and data that are going to drive cloud deployments and architectures and data gravity really becomes the key decision factor to decide where do I place this day? And it was a great example today if you saw Jesse's keynote, he announced Achla where they're actually starting to look at how do I move compute and the processing closer to the actual datasets. So actually inverting the problem and moving closer to the data. And then we see that trend starting to proliferate on the other part of the keynote that was very interesting was the five G announcement. And first you heard about AWS pushing into local zones where they were getting much distributing it out closer to them, reduce latency and really starting to push out. >>So ultimately we seen the whole landscape being transformed by data, these new application architectures and where that data resides and out to traditional world that we've known of hybrid with public and private is really transforming with the Amazon outputs, with the BMCs and stuff like that into much more one about shared and dedicated infrastructure. Then the big, the next real big thing that starts to happen then is this whole explosion of IOT. So as price performance goes down with Moore's law, we can start to see a lot more cost effective IOT solutions. And all of a sudden a world that was very centralized, you know, running up in the, in the world of the Amazons had the public cloud is not going to be much more distributed to a lot more of that compute over time gets moved out there. So we've seen a very rapidly evolving landscape. Apps and data are ultimately driving our cloud clients cloud and infrastructure investments. And they're really just trying to figure out how they can rapidly transform their environments to take advantage of this new landscape. >> So both of you are describing this exceedingly complex environment that is changing dizzying speed. I mean, just even this morning, but the Andy Jassy on stage for three hours with all of the new products and services that AWS has coming out with. What is AWS? What is ICI and Accenture doing to help clients navigate this, this, this, this landscape? Prisaad you know, our >>team is, it's not just enough for infrastructure and cloud to be a horizontal function as it used to be. We feel that, you know, one of the things that Accenture really brings to the table is our industry differentiation. Spent a lot of time analyzing the industries that our clients are in. So we've actually changed the team of ICI to be three different things. The first is to be industry led, so it's no longer good enough to be a horizontal function. We have to understand the needs of each industry and really look at how cloud and infrastructure will support that industry. The second is all about intelligence. And Larry just talked about the proliferation of data, but it's also bringing artificial intelligence, making networks much more smart, you know, really infusing intelligence into everything we do. And the third is the concept of being invisible because our clients are expecting infrastructure to just be there all the time. >>They don't really have to understand how it works, but it has to be there. It's just like going to into room and turning on a switch and you expect electricity to be there. So infrastructure has to be very much like, because it has to be ubiquitous, it has to be just available all the time. So those are the things that we are trying to bring to our clients to make it very specific for and very industry specific for for our clients. And this goes into areas like cloud computing. It goes into 5g edge is going to be a big part of what is going to happen in various industries. And as Larry talked about, IOT devices are going to be just proliferating. It's going to be billions of IOT devices. There's trillions of dollars being spent. In fact, I think the spend on IOT is probably bigger than any other area that I have seen probably in my working lifetime. So it's going to be an exciting time to come for us. >>I mean, we tend to think about artificial intelligence as this futuristic Jetsons kind of thing, but really it's, it's here. And now, Larry, can you talk a little bit about how companies are using AI and having an impact already on their businesses? I mean obviously you see a lot of AI being used for different use cases. We saw some great examples today in Jesse's keynote and we're seeing a use for video analytics for example. And AI to try to figure out predictive maintenance type activity. So there's obviously a lot of business use cases. I think what's interesting from our perspective as well is a lot of the operational use cases. So if you take a look at it with all these new innovations, the rapid pace of change that we're seeing with cloud infrastructure, that application landscape, we've started to rely pretty heavily first on analytics to how do we, how do we figure out what's going on, how do we operate efficiently, how do we make sure we don't put the businesses grist, you know, really pivoting from reactive to proactive and predictive operations. >>We've obviously automated everything as much as we can. I've see AI actually playing a very interesting role in how we optimize these environments over time. So as you get a much more complex environment, much more dynamic, and with containers, Coobernetti's, serverless compute dynamic networks that Prisaad was talking about with software defined networking, AI is going to be the only way we can tune and optimize that over time. So you've obviously got all the business use cases that we see in healthcare that we see in mining, predictive operations and stuff like that. But how we actually use AI internally is going to be critical to how we actually be able to manage cloud and infrastructure and really optimize it over time. >>W what is the client? What's, what's on your minds of your customers right now? We know that only 20% of companies out there have really adopted the cloud. Two thirds have really yet to capture the benefits of the cloud. What are you hearing from them? What are they saying to you? What are their pain points? >>So I think, you know, all of our clients realize that ultimately the cloud is going to be where they will be at. You know, data centers are existing today, but at some point, you know, everybody's going to move to the cloud. Most of our clients have taken the easier workloads and you know, the easy part has already been done. That's the first 20% but 80% of the work still remains. And that's the more complicated work that has to come. So they're looking to us to give them the right solutions. And then there's a variety of other factors to be considered. For example, they have to look at security issues. They have to understand that, you know, there are data privacy aspects to be considered. So really it's a question of matching the right private and public options. And as Larry also mentioned, probably only 30 40% of the data will actually sit in the central cloud. Most of the other data is actually gonna move out to the edge with IOT devices and so on. So data gravity, where does your dataset, where does your compute sit? And Andy talked about it as well today in his keynote address. These are all things that are going to keep evolving and I think that's going to really change the landscape. >>I think they, I think they all see the power of cloud. I mean, which in my mind it's really around the innovation cycles. You know, what you look at the pace that they're innovating with with RDS and Redshift. So they all see that power. I think the biggest thing, they struggle with our skills. And culture because how do you upskill, retrain the organization, everything from the new technologies, how to architect in the new world where it's very ephemeral, dynamic, a serverless world. How do you start to adopt those technologies? How do you operationalize it? How do you go beyond just agile and really do true dev sec ops where you're integrating security and operations built in from the ground floor. And a lot of times he's a cultural change is one of the things we see in cloud and infrastructure operations for example, is how do you take develop operators who used to be eyes on glass, looking at console's turn them into developers where they, you know, they're writing the next analytic algorithms to get to predictive there they're automating automation scripts to improve operations and ultimately tuning the AI engines that optimize it. >>And I think that skills and culture barrier is probably the hardest thing for them to overcome. And how do you just, you can't just go to the cloud, you've got to behave differently. It really have to transform how you use it, how you operate and really transform the organization and culture. >>So these change management challenges, where do you even start? Because as you said, the adopting the technology is almost the easy part, or at least the most straightforward, but really getting everyone on board and really changing people's mindsets and mentalities and dispositions and the way that they collaborate with each other and collaborate cross-functionally. So what have you learned within ICI to, to help companies? And what's your advice? >>I think, I think there are three aspects that you have to get right. In fact, I was talking to one of the CEOs of a very large client of ours, and I think you have to get three things right and you've got to get them aligned and moving at the same time. The first obviously is the technology. So you have to understand what makes sense for you, for your industry. Make the right bets because if you make a wrong decision, then you know you're going to set yourself back. So getting the technology right obviously is important. The second is operating model, making sure that you get that the right operating model in place and kicked off right, right upfront. And the third, like Larry said, is transforming your workforce. So making sure that people are, you know, have all the right skill sets when you actually have the operating model and the technology ready. So it's very important to bring all those three aspects together and a company like Accenture, with our background around consulting, around change management, around technology, we're uniquely positioned understanding our client's industries and really bringing all of those three aspects together so that we're able to position our clients to take that journey forward. >>Larry, in terms of next year's Excenture executive summit, look into your crystal ball. You've already talked about a lot of emerging technologies, IOT, edge computing have talked a lot about AI. Of course. What do you think are going to be the hot topics? Looking ahead this this year in ice with an ICI, you >>touched on earlier, I think everyone's going to be talking about data gravity. As you get these bigger and bigger data sets, it becomes, you know, the network's always going to be the bottleneck. So even with Moore's law, stretching from 18 months to 24 the amount of data we produce, particularly with IOT and edge, is really going to transform things. And even though we've got massive network upgrades like 5g coming along, it will never be enough. I mean, that comes along every 12 years. We're seeing a doubling of price performance who competed? I think data gravity, you can start to see a very different landscape where it used to be public and private and now edge is really going to be obliterated to much more seamless architecture. Then there was a lot of the keynote today, and if you start to take a look at local zones and some of the announcements today, they were ready. Amazon was heading there with green Greengrass so you can have much more seamlessness. And how do I get compute closer to the processing? You're gonna be talking a lot about clustering, clustering, compute around datasets versus the other way around. So I think we're gonna see, and I think that's going to happen pretty fast. Usually a lot of this stuff we've been talking about IOT for years. I do think we're on the tipping point. I think we're about to see exponential growth just as price performance >>comes together. Some of the technologies had gotten gotten there, but, but I think that the whole focus on data and data gravity is what you're going to hear a lot about next year. I can't wait to hear the AWS reinvent band. Do a little pink Floyd or something like that for data gravity. We'll Larry and Prisaad. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. It was a pleasure having you on. Thanks for Brooke. I'm Rebecca night's stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of the Accenture executive summit.

>> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to the special. Keep conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John for a co host of the Cube. Were Arsenal was a C I S O. C. So for Microsoft also corporate vice President, Chief information security. Thanks for joining me today. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it. Thanks. So you have a really big job. You're a warrior in the industry, security is the hardest job on the planet. >> And hang in sight >> of every skirt. Officer is so hard. Tell us about the role of Microsoft. You have overlooked the entire thing. You report to the board, give us an overview of what >> happens. Yeah. I >> mean, it's you know, obviously we're pretty busy. Ah, in this world we have today with a lot of adversaries going on, an operational issues happening. And so I have responsibility. Accountability for obviously protecting Microsoft assets are customer assets. And then ah, And for me, with the trend also responsibility for business continuity Disaster recovery company >> on the sea. So job has been evolving. We're talking before the camera came on that it's coming to CEO CF roll years ago involved to a business leader. Where is the sea? So roll now in your industry is our is a formal title is it establishes their clear lines of reporting. How's it evolved? What's the current state of the market in terms of the sea? So it's roll? >> Yeah, the role is involved. A lot. Like you said, I think like the CIA or twenty years ago, you know, start from the back room of the front room and I think the, you know, one of things I look at in the role is it's really made it before things. There's technical architecture, there's business enablement. There's operational expert excellence. And then there's risk management and the older ah, what does find the right word? But the early see so model was really about the technical architecture. Today. It's really a blend of those four things. How do you enable your business to move forward? How do you take calculated risks or manage risks? And then how do you do it really effectively and efficiently, which is really a new suit and you look at them. You'LL see people evolving to those four functions. >> And who's your boss? Would you report to >> I report to a gentleman by the name of a curtain. Little Benny on DH. He is the chief digital officer, which would be a combination of Seo did officer and transformation as well as all of Microsoft corporate strategy >> and this broad board visibility, actually in security. >> Yeah, you >> guys, how is Microsoft evolved? You've been with the company for a long time >> in the >> old days ahead perimeters, and we talk about on the Cube all the time. When a criminalist environment. Now there's no perimeter. Yeah, the world's changed. How is Microsoft evolved? Its its view on security Has it evolved from central groups to decentralize? How is it how how was it managed? What's the what's the current state of the art for security organization? >> Well, I think that, you know, you raise a good point, though things have changed. And so in this idea, where there is this, you know, perimeter and you demanded everything through the network that was great. But in a client to cloak cloud world, we have today with mobile devices and proliferation or cloud services, and I ot the model just doesn't work anymore. So we sort of simplified it down into Well, we should go with this, you know, people calls your trust, I refer to It is just don't talk to strangers. But the idea being is this really so simplified, which is you've got to have a good identity, strong identity to participate. You have to have managed in healthy device to participate, to talk to, ah, Microsoft Asset. And then you have to have data in telemetry that surrounds that all the time. And so you basically have a trust, trust and then verify model between those three things. And that's really the fundamental. It's really that simple. >> David Lava as Pascal senior with twenty twelve when he was M. C before he was the C E O. V M. Where he said, You know his security do over and he was like, Yes, it's going to be a do over its opportunity. What's your thoughts on that perspective? Has there been a do over? Is it to do over our people looking at security and a whole new way? What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, I've been around security for a long time, and it's there's obviously changes in Massa nations that happened obviously, at Microsoft. At one point we had a security division. I was the CTO in that division, and we really thought the better way to do it was make security baked in all the products that we do. Everything has security baked in. And so we step back and really change the way we thought about it. To make it easier for developers for end users for admin, that is just a holistic part of the experience. So again, the technology really should disappear. If you really want to be affected, I think >> don't make it a happy thought. Make it baked in from Day one on new product development and new opportunity. >> Yeah, basically, shift the whole thing left. Put it right in from the beginning. And so then, therefore, it's a better experience for everyone using it. >> So one of things we've observed over the past ten years of doing the Cube when do first rolled up with scene, you know, big data role of date has been critical, and I think one of the things that's interesting is, as you get data into the system, you can use day that contextually and look at the contextual behavioral data. It's really is create some visibility into things you, Meyer may not have seen before. Your thoughts and reaction to the concept of leveraging data because you guys get a lot of data. How do you leverage the data? What's the view of data? New data will make things different. Different perspectives creates more visibility. Is that the right view? What's your thoughts on the role of Data World Data plays? >> Well, they're gonna say, You know, we had this idea. There's identity, there's device. And then there's the data telemetry. That platform becomes everything we do, what there's just security and are anomalous behavior like you were talking about. It is how do we improve the user experience all the way through? And so we use it to the service health indicator as well. I think the one thing we've learned, though, is I was building where the biggest data repositories your head for some time. Like we look at about a six point five trillion different security events a day in any given day, and so sort of. How do you filter through that? Manage? That's pretty amazing, says six point five trillion >> per day >> events per day as >> coming into Microsoft's >> that we run through the >> ecosystem your systems. Your computers? >> Yeah. About thirty five hundred people. Reason over that. So you can Certainly the math. You need us. Um, pretty good. Pretty good technology to make it work effectively for you and efficiently >> at RC A Heard a quote on the floor and on the q kind of echoing the same sentiment is you can't hire your way to success in this market is just not enough people qualified and jobs available to handle the volume and the velocity of the data coming in. Automation plays a critical role. Your reaction to that comment thoughts on? >> Well, I think I think the cure there, John, those when you talk about the volume of the data because there's what we used to call speeds and feeds, right? How big is it? And I used to get great network data so I can share a little because we've talked, like from the nineties or whatever period that were there. Like the network was everything, but it turns out much like a diverse workforce creates the best products. It turns out diverse data is more important than speeds and feeds. So, for example, authentication data map to, you know, email data map to end point data map. TEO SERVICE DATA Soon you're hosting, you know, the number of customers. We are like financial sector data vs Healthcare Data. And so it's the ability Teo actually do correlation across that diverse set of data that really differentiates it. So X is an example. We update one point two billion devices every single month. We do six hundred thirty billion authentications every single month. And so the ability to start correlating those things and movement give us a set of insights to protect people like we never had before. >> That's interesting telemetry you're getting in the marketplace. Plus, you have the systems to bring it in >> a pressure pressure coming just realized. And this all with this consent we don't do without consent, we would never do without consent. >> Of course, you guys have the terms of service. You guys do a good job on that, But I think the point that I'm seeing there is that you guys are Microsoft. Microsoft got a lot of access. Get a lot of stuff out there. How does an enterprise move to that divers model because they will have email, obviously. But they have devices. So you guys are kind of operating? I would say tear one of the level of that environment cause you're Microsoft. I'm sure the big scale players to that. I'm just an enterprising I'm a bank or I'm an insurance company or I'm in oil and gas, Whatever the vertical. Maybe. What do I do if I'm the sea? So they're So what does that mean, Diversity? How should they? >> Well, I think they have a diverse set of data as well. Also, if they participate, you know, even in our platform today, we you know, we have this thing called the security graph, which is an FBI people can tap into and tap into the same graph that I use and so they can use that same graph particular for them. They can use our security experts to help them with that if they don't have the all the resource and staff to go do that. So we provide both both models for that to happen, and I think that's why a unique perspective I should think should remind myself of which is we should have these three things. We have a really good security operations group we have. I think that makes us pretty unique that people can leverage. We build this stuff into the product, which I think is good. But then the partnership, the other partners who play in the graph, it's not just us. So there's lots of people who play on that as well. >> So like to ask you two lines of questions. Wanting on the internal complex is that organizations will have on the external complexity and realities of threats and coming in. How do they? How do you balance that out? What's your vision on that? Because, you know, actually, there's technology, his culture and people, you know in those gaps and capabilities on on all three. Yeah, internally just getting the culture right and then dealing with the external. How does a C so about his company's balance? Those realities? >> Well, I think you raised a really good point, which is how do you move the culture for? That's a big conversation We always have. And that was sort of, you know, it's interesting because the the one side we have thirty five hundred people who have security title in their job, But there's over one hundred thousand people who every day part of their job is doing security, making sure they'LL understand that and know that is a key part we should reinforce everyday on DSO. But I think balancing it is, is for me. It's actually simplifying just a set of priorities because there's no shortage of, you know, vendors who play in the space. There's no shortage of things you can read about. And so for us it was just simplifying it down and getting it. That simplifies simplified view of these are the three things we're going to go do we build onerous platform to prioritize relative to threat, and then and then we ensure we're building quality products. Those five things make it happen. >> I'd like to get your thoughts on common You have again Before I came on camera around how you guys view simplification terminal. You know, you guys have a lot of countries, the board level, and then also you made a common around trust of security and you an analogy around putting that drops in a bucket. So first talk about the simplification, how you guys simplifying it and why? Why is that important? >> You think we supply two things one was just supplying the message to people understood the identity of the device and making sure everything is emitting the right telemetry. The second part that was like for us but a Z to be illustrative security passwords like we started with this technology thing and we're going to do to FAA. We had cards and we had readers and oh, my God, we go talk to a user. We say we're going to put two FAA everywhere and you could just see recoil and please, >> no. And then >> just a simple change of being vision letters. And how about this? We're just going to get rid of passwords then People loved like they're super excited about it. And so, you know, we moved to this idea of, you know, we always said this know something, know something new, how something have something like a card And they said, What about just be something and be done with it? And so, you know, we built a lot of the capability natively into the product into windows, obviously, but I supported energies environment. So I you know, I support a lot of Mac clinics and IOS and Android as well So you've read it. Both models you could use by or you could use your device. >> That's that. That's that seems to be a trend. Actually, See that with phones as well as this. Who you are is the password and why is the support? Because Is it because of these abuses? Just easy to program? What's the thought process? >> I think there's two things that make it super helpful for us. One is when you do the biometric model. Well, first of all, to your point, the the user experience is so much better. Like we walk up to a device and it just comes on. So there's no typing this in No miss typing my password. And, you know, we talked earlier, and that was the most popular passwords in Seattle with Seahawks two thousand seventeen. You can guess why, but it would meet the complexity requirements. And so the idea is, just eliminate all that altogether. You walk up machine, recognize you, and you're often running s o. The user experience is great, but plus it's Actually the entropy is harder in the biometric, which makes it harder for people to break it, but also more importantly, it's bound locally to the device. You can't run it from somewhere else. And that's the big thing that I think people misunderstanding that scenario, which is you have to be local to that. To me, that's a >> great example of rethinking the security paradigm. Exactly. Let's talk about trust and security. You you have an opinion on this. I want to get your thoughts, the difference between trust and security so they go hand in hand at the same time. They could be confused. Your thoughts on this >> well being. You can have great trust. You can, so you can have great security. But you generally and you would hope that would equate like a direct correlation to trust. But it's not. You need to you build trust. I think our CEO said it best a long time ago. You put one bucket of water, one bucket. Sorry, one truffle water in the bucket every time. And that's how you build trust. Over time, my teenager will tell you that, and then you kick it over and you put it on the floor. So you have to. It's always this ratcheting up bar that builds trust. >> They doing great you got a bucket of water, you got a lot of trust, that one breach. It's over right, >> and you've got to go rebuild it and you've got to start all over again. And so key, obviously, is not to have that happen. But then, that's why we make sure you have operational rigor and >> great example that just totally is looking Facebook. Great. They have massive great security. What really went down this past week, but still the trust factor on just some of the other or societal questions? >> Yeah, >> and that something Do it. >> Security. Yeah, I think that's a large part of making sure you know you're being true. That's what I said before about, you know, we make sure we have consent. We're transparent about how we do the things we do, and that's probably the best ways to build trust. >> Okay, so you guys have been successful in Microsoft, just kind of tight the company for second to your role. It's pretty well documented that the stock prices at an all time high. So if Donatella Cube alumni, by the way, has been on the cue before he he took over and clear he didn't pivot. He just said we'd go in the cloud. And so the great moves, he don't eat a lot of great stuff. Open source from open compute to over the source. And this ship has turned and everything's going great. But that cheering the cloud has been great for the company. So I gotta ask you, as you guys move to the cloud, the impact to your businesses multi fold one products, ecosystem suppliers. All these things are changing. How has security role in the sea? So position been impact that what have you guys done? How does that impact security in general? Thoughts? >> Yeah, I think we obviously were like any other enterprise we had thousands of online are thousands of line of business applications, and we did a transformation, and we took a method logical approach with risk management. And we said, Okay, well, this thirty percent we should just get rid of and decommission these. We should, you know, optimize and just lifting shifting application. That cloud was okay, but it turns out there's massive benefit there, like for elasticity. Think of things that quarterly reporting or and you'll surveys or things like that where you could just dynamically grow and shrink your platform, which was awesome linear scale that we never had Cause those events I talk about would require re architectures. Separate function now becomes linear. And so I think there is a lot of things from a security perspective I could do in a much more efficient must wear a fish. In fact, they're then I had to have done it before, but also much more effective. I just have compute capability. Didn't have I have signal I didn't have. And so we had to wrap her head around that right and and figure out how to really leverage that. And to be honest, get the point. We're exploited because you were the MySpace. I have disaster and continent and business. This is processed stuff. And so, you know, everyone build dark fiber, big data centers, storage, active, active. And now when you use a platform is a service like on that kind of azure. You could just click a Bach and say, I want this thing to replicate. It also feeds your >> most diverse data and getting the data into the system that you throw a bunch of computer at that scale. So What diverse data? How does that impact the good guys and the bad guys? That doesn't tip the scales? Because if you have divers date and you have his ability, it's a race for who has the most data because more data diversity increases the aperture and our visibility into events. >> Yeah, I you >> know, I should be careful. I feel like I always This's a job. You always feel like you're treading water and trying to trying to stay ahead. But I think that, um, I think for the first time in my tenure do this. I feel there's an asymmetry that benefits. They're good guys in this case because of the fact that your ability to reason over large sets of data like that and is computed data intensive and it will be much harder for them like they could generally use encryption were effectively than some organization because the one the many relationship that happens in that scenario. But in the data center you can't. So at least for now, I feel like there's a tip This. The scales have tipped a bit for the >> guy that you're right on that one. I think it's good observation I think that industry inside look at the activity around, from new fund adventures to overall activity on the analytics side. Clearly, the data edge is going to be an advantage. I think that's a great point. Okay, that's how about the explosion of devices we're seeing now. An explosion of pipe enabled devices, Internet of things to the edge. Operational technologies are out there that in factory floors, everything being I P enables, kind of reminds me of the old days. Were Internet population you'd never uses on the Internet is growing, and >> that costs a lot >> of change in value, creation and opportunities devices. Air coming on both physical and software enabled at a massive rate is causing a lot of change in the industry. Certainly from a security posture standpoint, you have more surface area, but they're still in opportunity to either help on the do over, but also create value your thoughts on this exploding device a landscape, >> I think your Boston background. So Metcalfe's law was the value the net because the number of the nodes on the network squared right, and so it was a tense to still be true, and it continues to grow. I think there's a huge value and the device is there. I mean, if you look at the things we could do today, whether it's this watch or you know your smartphone or your smart home or whatever it is, it's just it's pretty unprecedented the capabilities and not just in those, but even in emerging markets where you see the things people are doing with, you know, with phones and Lauren phones that you just didn't have access to from information, you know, democratization of information and analysis. I think it's fantastic. I do think, though, on the devices there's a set of devices that don't have the same capabilities as some of the more markets, so they don't have encryption capability. They don't have some of those things. And, you know, one of Microsoft's responses to that was everything. Has an M see you in it, right? And so we, you know, without your spirit, we created our own emcee. That did give you the ability to update it, to secure, to run it and manage it. And I think that's one of the things we're doing to try to help, which is to start making these I, O. T or Smart devices, but at a very low cost point that still gives you the ability because the farm would not be healed Update, which we learn an O. T. Is that over time new techniques happen And you I can't update the system >> from That's getting down to the product level with security and also having the data great threats. So final final talk Tracking one today with you on this, your warrior in the industry, I said earlier. See, so is a hard job you're constantly dealing with compliance to, you know, current attacks, new vector, new strains of malware. And it's all over the map. You got it. You got got the inbound coming in and you got to deal with all that the blocking and tackling of the organization. >> What do you What do >> you finding as best practice? What's the what if some of the things on the cso's checklist that you're constantly worried about and or investing in what some of >> the yeah, >> the day to day take us through the day to day life >> of visited a lot? Yeah, it >> starts with not a Leslie. That's the first thing you have to get used to, but I think the you know again, like I said, there's risk Manager. Just prioritize your center. This is different for every company like for us. You know, hackers don't break and they just log in. And so identity still is one of the top things. People have to go work on him. You know, get rid of passwords is good for the user, but good for the system. We see a lot in supply chain going on right now. Obviously, you mentioned in the Cambridge Analytical Analytics where we had that issue. It's just down the supply chain. And when you look at not just third party but forthe party fifth party supply and just the time it takes to respond is longer. So that's something that we need to continue to work on. And then I think you know that those are some of the other big thing that was again about this. How do you become effective and efficient and how you managed that supply chain like, You know, I've been on a mission for three years to reduce my number of suppliers by about fifty percent, and there's still lots of work to do there, but it's just getting better leverage from the supplier I have, as well as taking on new capability or things that we maybe providing natively. But at the end of the day, if you have one system that could do what four systems going Teo going back to the war for talent, having people, no forces and versus one system, it's just way better for official use of talent. And and obviously, simplicity is the is the friend of security. Where is entropy is not, >> and also you mentioned quality data diversity it is you're into. But also there's also quality date of you have quality and diverse data. You could have a nice, nice mechanism to get machine learning going well, but that's kind of complex, because in the thie modes of security breaches, you got pre breached in breech post breach. All have different data characteristics all flowing together, so you can't just throw that answer across as a prism across the problem sets correct. This is super important, kind of fundamentally, >> yeah, but I think I >> would I would. The way I would characterize those is it's honestly, well, better lessons. I think I learned was living how to understand. Talk with CFO, and I really think we're just two things. There's technical debt that we're all working on. Everybody has. And then there's future proofing the company. And so we have a set of efforts that go onto like Red Team. Another actually think like bad people break them before they break you, you know, break it yourself and then go work on it. And so we're always balancing how much we're spending on the technical, that cleanup, you know, modernizing systems and things that are more capable. And then also the future proofing. If you're seeing things coming around the corner like cryptography and and other other element >> by chain blockchain, my supply chain is another good, great mechanism. So you constantly testing and R and D also practical mechanisms. >> And there in the red team's, which are the teams that attacking pen everything, which is again, break yourself first on this super super helpful for us >> well bred. You've seen a lot of ways of innovation have been involved in multiple ways computer industry client server all through the through the days, so feel. No, I feel good about this you know, because it reminds me and put me for broken the business together. But this is the interesting point I want to get to is there's a lot of younger Si SOS coming in, and a lot of young talent is being attractive. Security has kind of a game revived to it. You know, most people, my friends, at a security expert, they're all gamers. They love game, and now the thrill of it. It's exciting, but it's also challenging. Young people coming might not have experience. You have lessons you've learned. Share some thoughts over the years that scar either scar tissue or best practices share some advice. Some of the younger folks coming in breaking into the business of, you know, current situation. What you learned over the years it's Apple Apple. But now the industry. >> Yeah, sadly, I'd probably say it's no different than a lot of the general advice I would have in the space, which is there's you value experience. But it turns out I value enthusiasm and passion more here so you can teach about anybody whose passion enthusiastic and smart anything they want. So we get great data people and make them great security people, and we have people of a passion like you know, this person. It's his mission is to limit all passwords everywhere and like that passion. Take your passion and driver wherever you need to go do. And I >> think the nice >> thing about security is it is something that is technically complex. Human sociology complex, right? Like you said, changing culture. And it affects everything we do, whether it's enterprise, small, medium business, large international, it's actually a pretty It's a fasten, if you like hard problem. If you're a puzzle person, it's a great It's a great profession >> to me. I like how you said Puzzle. That's I think that's exactly it. They also bring up a good point. I want to get your thoughts on quickly. Is the talent gap is is really not about getting just computer science majors? It's bigger than that. In fact, I've heard many experts say, and you don't have to be a computer scientist. You could be a lot of cross disciplines. So is there a formula or industry or profession, a college degree? Or is it doesn't matter. It's just smart person >> again. It depends if your job's a hundred percent. Security is one thing, but like what we're trying to do is make not we don't have security for developers you want have developed to understand oppa security and what they build is an example on DSO. Same with administrators and other components. I do think again I would say the passion thing is a key piece for us, but But there's all aspects of the profession, like the risk managers air, you know, on the actuarial side. Then there's math people I had one of my favorite people was working on his phD and maladaptive behavior, and he was super valuable for helping us understand what actually makes things stick when you're trying to train their educate people. And what doesn't make that stick anthropologist or super helpful in this field like anthropologist, Really? Yeah, anthropologist are great in this field. So yeah, >> and sociology, too, you mentioned. That would think that's a big fact because you've got human aspect interests, human piece of it. You have society impact, so that's really not really one thing. It's really cross section, depending upon where you want to sit in the spectrum of opportunity, >> knowing it gives us a chance to really hire like we hire a big thing for us has been hard earlier in career and building time because it's just not all available. But then also you, well, you know, hire from military from law enforcement from people returning back. It's been actually, it's been a really fascinating thing from a management perspective that I didn't expect when I did. The role on has been fantastic. >> The mission. Personal question. Final question. What's getting you excited these days? I mean, honestly, you had a very challenging job and you have got attend all the big board meetings, but the risk management compliance. There's a lot of stuff going on, but it's a lot >> of >> technology fund in here to a lot of hard problems to solve. What's getting you excited? What what trends or things in the industry gets you excited? >> Well, I'm hopeful we're making progress on the bad guys, which I think is exciting. But honestly, this idea the you know, a long history of studying safety when I did this and I would love to see security become the air bags of the technology industry, right? It's just always there on new president. But you don't even know it's there until you need it. And I think that getting to that vision would be awesome. >> And then really kind of helping move the trust equation to a whole other level reputation. New data sets so data, bits of data business. >> It's total data business >> breath. Thanks for coming on the Q. Appreciate your insights, but also no see. So the chief information security officer at Microsoft, also corporate vice president here inside the Cuban Palo Alto. This is cute conversations. I'm John Career. Thanks for watching. >> Thank you.

from Boston Massachusetts it's the cube covering wtg transform 2018 brought to you by Winslow technology group I'm Stu minimun and you're watching the Q's coverage of wtg transform 2018 happy to welcome to the program got a CIO in the house Russ Roderick who is the with chin bro that's correct how you doing to be here excellent so third year for yourself at the show first first impressions at the show what brings you back yeah third year I've really enjoyed it each of previous years I skipped a year last year travel related issue but I think the layout I like the naming convention change I like everything about it I think this is an excellent program that technology excellent they felt pity on me when they did the name change if you heard because saying the whole user group Dell EMC winslet Technology Group was a bit of a tongue twister but that's you know first world problems so Russ wrote for people that don't know tell us a little bit about chin bro yeah so Tim bro is a construction company headquartered in Pittsfield Maine we're nationwide where we do our projects we're in numerous markets from building infrastructure oil gas chemical industrial manufacturing we have a lot of projects done every year in the hundreds range and we were a little under a billion dollars got about 2,500 team members across the country okay and is the CIO you know how BIG's your team how many locations do you manage and you know tell us yeah let's go there for sure yes so I have 30 person team we have everything from application development to help desk to data analytics business intelligence teams I have infrastructure organization I have field support business analysts and we're a full-service organization all right so restless first start with with chin bro would you know what are some of the biggest challenges you're facing into business what does that term digital transformation resonate with with with your world it does the construction industry is very interesting it's a low margin industry right and so as a result of that we're always always looking to save money we're always looking to be lean we have a major initiative in the company around lean transformation some of that is digital related you know getting off of paper moving into paper forms into electronic forms and then not having to touch the data too many times so we have been moving too for quite a few years now so it's not new to the organization but it is a big challenge okay so absolutely we see that a lot what is the role of IT to the business these days so we have gone from being the elevator music as I like to call it like we're in the background you know we're kind of there to a strategic partner and I've reported from finance and I've moved to into the up to the CFO from CFO excuse me into the CEO role and it's been a great challenge there's some other organizational changes that we're looking at but we're no longer that background music we're very strategic in what we do we actually run several committees for the company looking at project prioritization workflow prioritizations and helping the organization to build an application roadmap new strategy yeah I love that I mean when you talk to us organizationally it says a lot you know under the CFO your call center we are moving under the CEO your strategic to the business right all right you talked about application so let's go there first because that's you know that application modernization is big challenge when I talk about modernization I always say you know application is a long pole in the tabs so what what does that mean to you what what kind of transformations are you going through inside yeah again our industry is dealing with a lot of fragmented software and it's a it's a problem a lot of industries face but ours I feel is we're on the very tail end of the industries that have moved to digital that have moved to modernization of our apps a lot of our products are on-premise our ERP system we've been on for 20 years for example and they've they've modernized we're getting it to mobile our imaging and workflow systems are starting to get more modernized but they're their legacy products and it's difficult when you have to deal with infrastructure that we have in the construction world we don't always have connectivity so we have to have a lot of offline we do all work with Citrix and it can be very problematic yeah you've been doing with the issues that we talked about with edge computing and IOT is you know something you've been living with for years right absolutely so IOT is one of those transformational pieces for us as well you know we have a lot of equipment that's one of the parts of our business you know 25,000 pieces of gear and heavy iron and we don't have a really good solution in place today that we're monitor all of the the meters and the performance and the of those devices so we're looking to IOT to help us get a better picture of that at an aggregate data level okay so I love we started up the stack with the applications let's come down a little bit tell us about your infrastructure what what are you using today how long you been using it for Winslow's in in the mix there's o windows absolutely in the next Dave we've moved from the traditional data center I had a lot of servers and racks and and moved to a V block and the X block with the X rail and our disaster recovery center out in Chicago and we did that because we had you know all the traditional problems of maintenance and and patching and licensing and everything and we never really had to deal with any of the power and heat and energy problems were up in Maine so we don't we're not an issue with cooling but that was a challenge for us having to manage all that stuff so we worked with Winslow and Dell EMC to figure out how do we get into the hyper converge to move away from all those server for administration and management and we did that project a little over a year ago implemented a little year ago and we've seen tremendous opportunities and for how we how we provision equipment and how we manage that need for the applications you know standing up new environments virtualizations really helped us do yeah so did you roll up the VX block and the VX rail together or the were those two sever they were slightly delayed so we did the X block first and then a few months later we did the the VX ray okay so the V block and the VX block after it been around for a number of years that you know 8 10 years at this point VX rails a little bit newer there's some people out there that are like oh wait HCI takes over the whole market tell us why each of those solutions and you know what was it an application price thing what what how did that go yeah we looked at it wasn't necessarily that we were in you know any position where you had to have this massive return on our investment right we built our business case around disaster recovery we our data center our primary or secondary were in the same town you know so we had all those elements of disaster recovery that were a problem for us so when we looked at the solution we wanted to be able to replicate our data more effectively get away from the traditional tape backup models and really help provision the equipment as quickly as we could in the event of you know a disaster and get ourselves recovered business continuity wise so it was a financial decision obviously that we had that we had thing had to pay for itself in which it did but we didn't spend a lot of time really kind of honing in on it has to be an ROI and a payback it was it was really about performance and disaster so is the VIX Bach in the primary and the BX rail and the secondary correct okay really cool on any you know what would you sell your peers is you after you've rolled us out any learnings that you had or the things that you'd go back and you know adjuster tweak no actually we had a really incredible experience working with with Winslow they were able to help us work through all of our any of our production issues very quickly we did replication through zurdo so that's moving our data very efficiently and my my IT team feels very confident that should and we're doing a test later this year but should we have a production incident we'd be able to recover lessons learned you know I think it's it's more about planning your work you know making sure that you've got your activities planned and that you're looking at the operational performance of the applications great all right Russ last question I have for you as a CIO how things been changing yeah you've been in the role for seven years you've moved inside the organization what are some of the things that are changing and some of the things that aren't yeah so the CIO role I believe personally is really kind of gearing towards more of a strategic element you know being part of that business making sure that we're not just providing those generic services of you know ping power and pipe right we're there for the business to understand what their business processes are all about and how they run their workflows and use their applications on a daily basis most of my conversations with my vice-president peers and and business leaders isn't around the technology that's being used yeah they're interested in iPhones and tablet devices but they're really geared at how do I help them solve their business problems and that's where IT is really evolving and the CIO role is doing a lot of that it wraps around that you know the teams you have around you and the strategic elements of the organization and just to follow up on that to do the SAS applications that your business using following under you is there any public cloud in there - what we do we have we have a hybrid cloud solution so we do a lot of on-premise solutions but we have several cloud and they're they're growing as needed but we have a business model that basically says let's look at our infrastructure internally first as a as an employee-owned private company we tend to gravitate towards keeping in-house but we have several business solutions that are in the cloud that are providing value all right well rust pleasure to meet you take so much for you to us and Congrats on everything that Kimbrough is done thank you very much back with lots more coverage here at wtt transform 2018 I'm Stu minimun and thanks so much for watching the Q [Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Manhattan, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit, New York City 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> And we are live here at the Javits Center, continuing on theCUBE, our coverage of AWS Summit 2017, here in Midtown. Starting to wind down, tail end of the day but still a lot of excitement here on the show floor behind us, as there has been all day long. Joining us now along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, is Josh Stella, who is the CEO and Co-Founder of Fugue, a Washington DC and Frederick, Maryland based company. Josh, thanks for being with us. >> Gentlemen, thanks for having me on theCUBE. >> You bet, first time, I think, right? >> Nope, second time. >> Oh, sorry, second time. >> Yeah. >> Alright, so a CUBE vet. >> A CUBE vet, there you go. >> Alright, so for our folks, viewers at home who might not be too familiar with Fugue. >> Josh: Sure. >> Tell us a little bit about what you do and I'm always curious about the origin of the name. Where'd that, you know, where that came from. >> Sure thing, sure. So what Fugue is, is an infrastructure automation system for the Cloud. So, it builds everything you need on the Cloud. It constantly monitors and operates it. It corrects it if anything goes wrong and it gives you a full view of everything in your infrastructure. We like to say you go fast. That's why you're going to Cloud, is to be able to go fast. You need to be able to see everything and get it right. Fugue gives you all of those capabilities at a different level than anything else out there. The name actually comes from music. From a form of musical composition called a fugue. And there might be some folks in the audience who remember Hofstadter's book Godel, Esher, Bach. That was actually where the idea came from. That and there aren't many English words left that are real words and I didn't want to make something up. >> So, you could get the website for it, so it was good to go? >> Yeah, we used fugue.co so that was part of it, sure. >> It worked out for you, then. >> It worked out, yeah. >> Well, for a guy I know who's big into astronomy, I guess Cloud would be, that seems to make sense, right? That you'd be tied into that. Just in general, Cloud migration now. What we're seeing with, this massive paradigm shift, right? >> Yes. >> That's occurring right now. What's in your mind, the biggest driver, you know, of that? Why are people now seriously on the uptake? >> Sure, so when I was at AWS, most of the growth that we saw was sort of, bottom-up. We would go into a new customer and they'd say, we didn't think we were on Cloud. And then we looked and there are 130 Cloud accounts, on AWS, scattered throughout the organization. That was kind of the first motion of Clouded option. We're really now in the second wave and this wave is strategic. It's where CIOs, CEOs and CTOs are saying this is the right way to go. They do security well, it's more cost-effective. More than anything, it allows us to move fast, iterate, be disruptive ourselves. Instead of letting the other guys, who are moving fast on Cloud disrupt us. So these are the big drivers. What Fugue does, is it allows your Cloud desk, and almost any of these organizations that are in this, sort of, phase two motion. It's not all bottom up. They're starting to say, how do we really want to get our hands around this? And so, what Fugue allows you to do is let your developers go even faster than they could without it but where things like policy has code, and infrastructure has code, are just baked in from the front. So, your developers can go really quickly, iterate and the system will actually tell them when they're doing something that isn't allowed by, for example, a regulatory regime or a compliance requirement. And, once you've built those things, Fugue makes sure their always running properly. So, it's a really powerful technology for migration. >> Josh, I'm wondering if you could take us in that dynamic you just talked about because the stuff where, the developers were just playing with it, we definitely saw it, you know. My joke, when I went to an audience was like, there's two types of customers out there. Those that know their using AWS and those that don't realize that they are using AWS. >> Josh: Yeah, exactly. >> But, when you switch to the top-down, it's, how do you get buy-in? How do you get, you know, that developer and the operator, you know, all on the same page. And, even you say today, most companies say, I have a Cloud strategy, but everybody's strategy is different and there's still, kind of, the ink's drying and as, you know, most people say, strategy means it's good for today. maybe not two years from now. >> Josh: Yeah. >> But, what are you seeing in the customer base, as some of those organizational dynamics, strategy dynamics. >> Sure, so, what we're seeing are, people are confused I think, still, about where this whole thing's going. There's a lot of clarity about where it's been, what it can do for you now. That's coming into a clear focus. But, we're in this moment of, not just moment, decade of huge change in computing. And we're still probably less than halfway through this sea change. So, I'd say the strategy, what we advise people, is the strategy has to be really thinking more about the future, that is unknown. As much as the present, that's known. And that's a difficult thing to do. Our approach to that has been, and then, how do you unify the, kind of, the intentions of the executives and the developers. Well, with developers you have to give them great tools. You have to give them things they want to use. You can't impose, kind of, these old enterprising systems on them. They will find ways around it. So, with Fugue, we wrote this very elegant functional programming language where the developers have far more power to do infrastructure as code than with anything else. It's a very beautiful, elegant language. Lots of developer tooling around that. We're just coming out within the next couple of weeks, here, an open beta on a visualization system. So, as you're writing your infrastructure as code, you automatically can see a diagram of everything that will be deployed. So, developers really like those aspects of Fugue. We speak their language. I'm the CEO, I've been a developer for 30 years. From the other side of the equation though, the executive level, the leadership of the organization, they need assurance that what's being built is going to be correct. Is going to be within the bounds of what's allowed by the organization and can adapt to change as it comes down the pike. So, and this gets back to strategy. So, we have the kind of, everything being built with virtual machines and attached disks. And now, you know, containers are really a huge trend, a really great trend but it's not the end. You have things like Lambda. You have things like machine learning as services. And the application boundaries around all of those things, the ones that are there now, and where it's going in the future. And so Fugue is very much architected to grow with that. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious what you're seeing from customers. It used to be, I think back to, you know, virtualization. It was, you know, IT was a cost center and how do we squeeze money out. Then it was, how can IT respond to the business? And now, you know, the leading edge customers, it's how's IT driving business? I think about machine learning, you know, IOT, a lot of the customers we've talked to, that are using serverless, it's you know, I can be more profitable from day one. I can react much faster. What are the dynamics you're seeing? Kind of the role in IT and, you know, the business? >> Yes, thanks, that's a great question. So, you know, software's eating the world and the Cloud is software, if you do it right. The use of the Cloud is software. And so, we're definitely seeing that. Where it used to be that IT was this big fixed cost center, and you were trying to just get more efficiency out of it. You know, maybe extend your recap cycles if you could get away with it, kind of. Now, it's really a disruptive offensive capability. How am I going to build the next thing that expands my market share? That goes after, other people are trying to be disruptive. So, you have to be able to go really, really fast in order to do that, yeah. >> So, one of the announcements today was the AWS migration hub. And it sounds great, I've got all of these migrations out there and it's going to help them put together but it reminds me of, kind of, we have the manager of managers. Because, there's so many services out there, you know, public Cloud, you know, it used to be like, oh Cloud's going to simplify everything. It's like, no, Cloud is not simplifying anything. We always have, kind of, the complexity. How do you help with that? How are customers grappling with the speed of change and the complexity. >> Josh: Sure. >> It is now? >> So, through automation and code. And that's the whole way through the stack. People used to think about software just being application. Then in the more recent, I'd say in the last 18 months, people have really figured out that actually, no, the configuration of the system, the infrastructure, if you will, although even that's a bit anachronistic. Has to be code, so does security. Everything needs to be turned into code so that the build process is minutes, not days or hours. So, we have a customer in financial services, for example, that uses Fugue to build their entire CICD pipeline and then integrate itself with it, so that all of their infrastructure and security policies are completely automated whenever a developer does a pull request. So, if they do a pull request, out comes an infrastructure. If that infrastructure did not meet policy, it's a build fail. So, the way you adapt to all this complexity is through automation. And it's going to get worse, not better as these services proliferate. And as the application boundaries are drawn around wider and wider classes of services. >> Yeah, and that's I guess to ask about. Is that, if I come in to the Cloud and I have X workload, you know, and it's. And all of a sudden, here comes this and here comes that. Now I can do this, now I have new capabilities. And it's growing and growing. My managing becomes a whole different animal now, right? >> Josh: Yes. >> How do I control that? How do I keep a handle on that and not get overwhelmed by the ability to do more and then people within my own company wanting to do more. >> Yeah, so what you're getting at there, I think, is that people go into this thinking the day one problem is the hard one. It's not. >> John: Mine's going to be when it becomes exponentially larger. >> Yeah, and the day two on problem is the hard one. Now I've built this thing. Is it right anymore? >> John: Right. >> Is it doing what it's supposed to do? Who owns it? >> Right, so all these things are what Fugue was built to address. We don't just build stuff on Cloud. We monitor it every 30 seconds and if anything gets out of specification we fix it. So the effect of this is, as you're building and building and building, if Fugue is happy, your infrastructure is correct. So you no longer have to worry about what's out there, it is operating as intended at the infrastructural layer. So, I think that you're exactly right. You get to these large scales and you realize, wow, I have to automate everything. Typically inside of enterprises, they're kind of hand rolling a bunch of point solutions and bags of python and bash script to try to do it. It's a really hard problem. >> So Josh, it's been a year since you came out of stealth, you know, what's been exciting? What's been challenging? What do you expect to see by the time we catch up with you a year from now? >> Yeah, sure, so what's been exciting is the amount of real traction and interest we're getting out of, like, financial services, government and health care, those kinds of markets. I'd say, it's also been exciting to get the kind of feedback that we have from our early customers, which is, they really become evangelists for us and that feels great when you give people a technology that they don't just use but they love. That's very exciting. A year from now, you're going to see a lot from us. Over the next six to nine months, in terms of product releases. We're going to be putting something out at reinvent, I can't get too much into it. That really changes some of the dynamics around things like being able to adopt Cloud. So, a lot of exciting stuff's coming up. >> It sounds like you've got a pretty interesting runway ahead of you. And you certainly have your hands full. But I think you've got a pretty good hand on it. So, congratulations on a very good year. >> Thank you. >> And we wish you all the best success down the road as well. >> Great, thanks for your time. >> You bet, Josh,thank you. Josh Stella from Fugue joining us here on theCUBE. Back with more from the Javits Center, we're at Midtown Manhattan at AWS Summit 2017.