>>Welcome back to Los Angeles, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here on day three of the cubes, coverage of coop con and cloud native con north America, 21, Dave, we've had a lot of great conversations. The last three days it's been jam packed. Yes, it has been. And yes, it has been fantastic. And it's been live. Did we mention that it's inline live in Los Angeles and we're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. David Stephanie is here. The CEO of Trulio David. Welcome back. It's good to see you. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Isn't it great to be in person? Oh man. It's been a reunion. >>It hasn't been a reunion and they have Ubered been talking about these great little, have you seen these wristbands that they have? I actually asked >>For two, cause I'm a big hugger, so >>Excellent. So, so here we are day three of coupon. That's actually probably day five, our third day of coverage. I'm losing track to it's Friday. I know that, that I can tell you, you guys announced two dot five a couple of weeks ago. Tell us what's in that. What's exciting. Before we crack open Twilio, uh, choy. >>Sure, sure. Well, it's been exciting to be here. Look, the theme right of resiliency realize has been it's right up our wheelhouse, right? To signal that more people are getting into production type of environments. More people require data protection for cloud native applications, right? And, uh, there's two dot five releases. It is as an answer to what we're seeing in the market. It really is centered predominantly around, uh, ransomware protection. And uh, you know, for us, when we look at this, I I've done a lot of work in, in cybersecurity, my career. And we took a hard look about a year ago around this area. How do we do this? How do we participate? How do we protect and help people recover? Because recovery that's part of the security conversation. You can talk about all the other things, but recovery is just as important. And we look at, uh, everything from a zero trust architecture that we provide now to adhering, to NIST standards and framework that's everything from immutability. Uh, so you can't touch the backups now, right? Uh, th that's fine to encryption, right? We'll encrypt from the application all the way to that, to the storage repository. And we'll leverage Keem in that system. So it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? You need a key to get your coin. You as an end-user only have your key to your data alone. And that's it. So all these things become more and more important as we adopt more cloud native technology. And >>As the threat landscape changes dramatically. >>Oh yeah. I got to tell you right. Every time we, you, you publish an application into another cloud, it's a new vector, right? So now I'm living in a multi-cloud world where multiple applications in my data now lives, right? So people are trying to attack backups through, uh, consoles and the ministry of consoles to the actual back of themselves. So new vectors, new problems need new solutions. >>And you mentioned, you mentioned something, you, you, you asked the question, how do we participate? And we are here at KU con uh, w uh, cloud native foundation. So what about, what's your connection to the open source community and efforts there? How do you participate in that? >>Yeah, so it's a really great question because, you know, uh, we are a closed source solution that focuses all of our efforts on the open source community and protecting cloud native applications. Our roots have been protecting cloud native applications since 2013, 2014, and with a lot of very large logos. And, um, you know, through time there are open source projects that do emerge, you know, in this community. And for example, Valero is an open source data protection platform, um, for all of its goodness, as a, as a community-based project, they're also deficiencies, right? So Valero in itself is, uh, focuses only on label based applications. It doesn't really scale. It doesn't have a UI it's really CLI driven, which is good for some people and it's free. But you know, if you need to really talk about an enterprise grade platform, this is where we pick up, you know, we, in our last release, we gave you the ability to capture your Valero based backups. And now you want to be an adult with an enterprise caliber, you know, backup solution and continue to protect your environment and have compliance and governance needs all satisfied. That's where, that's where we really stand out. >>Well, when you're talking to customers in any industry, what are the things that you talk about in terms of relief, categorizing the key differentiators that really make Trulia stand out above the competition? >>Yeah. Cause there, there a bunch of, they're a bunch of great competitors out there. There's no doubt about it. A lot of the legacy folks that you do see perhaps on those show floor, they do tuck in Valero and under the, under the covers, they can check a box or you can set aside some customer needs some of the pure play people that, that we do see out there, great solutions too. But really where we shine is, you know, we are the most flexible agnostic solution that there is in this market. And we've had people like red hat and Susa and verandas, digital ocean and HPS morale. And the list goes on, certify, say, Trulio is the solution of choice. And now no matter where you are in this journey or who you're using, we have your back. So there's a lot of flexibility. There we are complete storage agnostic. >>We are cloud agnostic in going back to how you want to build our architecture application. People are in various phases in their, in their journey. A lot of times, many moons ago, you may have started with just a label based application. Then you have another department that has a new technique and they want to use helm, or you may be adopting open shift and you're using operators to us. It doesn't matter. You have peace of mind. So whether you have, you have to protect multiple departments or you as an end user, as one single tenant are using various techniques, we'll discover or protect and we can move forward. >>So if you looked at, if you look at it from a workload basis, um, and you look at your customers are the workloads that you're protecting. What's, what's the mix of what you think of as legacy virtualized things versus containerized things. And then, and then, and then the other kind of follow on to that is, um, are you seeing a lot of modernization and migration or are you seeing people leave the legacy things alone and then develop net new in sort of separate silos? >>Yeah. So that's a great question. And I, to tell you the answer varies, that's, that's the honest answer, right? You end up having, you may have a group or a CIO that says, look, your CTO says, we're moving to this new architecture. The water's great, bring your applications in. And so either it's, we're going to lift and shift an application and then start to break it apart over time and develop microservices, or we're gonna start net new. And it really does run, run the gambit. And so, you know, as we look at, for some of those people, they have peace of mind that they can bring their two on applications in and we can recover. And for some people that say, look, I'm going to start brand new, and these are gonna be stateless applications. Um, we've seen this story before, right? Our, our, uh, uh, I joke around, it's kinda like the movie Groundhog's day. >>Uh, you know, we, we started many moons ago within the OpenStack world and we started with stateless to stateful. Always, always, always finds a way, but for the stateless people, um, when you start thinking about security, I've had conversations with CSOs around the world who say, I'm going to publish a stainless application. What I'm concerned about things like drift, you know, what's happening in runtime may be completely different than what I intended. So now we give you the ability to capture that runtime state compare. The two things identify what's changed. If you don't like what you see, and you can take that point in time recovery into a sandbox and forensically take it apart. You know, one of our superpowers, if you will, is the, our point in time, backups are all in an open format. Everyone else has proprietary Schemos. So the benefit of an open format is you have the ability to leverage a lot of third party tooling. So take a point in time, run scanners across it. And it, God forbid Trulio goes away. You still have access and you can recreate a point in time. So when you start thinking about compliance, heavy environments, think about telcos, right? Or financial institutions. They have to keep things for 15 years, right? Technologies change, architectures change. You can't have that lock-in >>So we continue to thrive. And on that front, one of the marketing terms that we hear a lot, and I want to get your opinion on this as a feature proofing, how do you, what does, what does it mean to you and Trillium and how do you enable that for organizations, like you said, for the FSI is I have to keep data for 15 years and other industries that have to keep it for maybe even longer. >>I mean, right. The future proof, uh, you know, terminology, that's part of our mantra actually, when I talked about, you know, a superpower being as agnostic and flexible as can be right, as long as you adhere to standards, right? The standards that are out here, we have that agnostic play. And then again, not just capturing an applications, metadata data, but that open format, right? Giving you that open capability to unpack something. So you're not, there is no, there is no vendor lock-in with us at all. So all these things play a part into, into future-proofing yourself. And because we live and breathe cloud native applications, you know, it's not just Kubernetes right? Over the course of time, there'll be other things, right. You're going to see mixed workloads too. They're gonna be VM based in the cloud and container based in the cloud and server lists as well. But you, as long as you have that framework to continuously build off of it, that's, that's where we go. You know, uh, it shouldn't matter where your application lives, right? At the end of the day, we will protect the application and its data. It can live anywhere. So conversations around multi-cloud change, we start to think and talk across cloud, right? The ability to move your application, your data, wherever it, wherever it needs to be to. >>Well, you talked about recoverability and that is the whole point of backing up video. You have to be able to recover something that we've seen in the last 18, 19 months. Anyone can backup >>Data. >>That's right. That's right. If you can't recover it, or if you can't recover it in time. Yeah. We're talking like going on a business potential and we've seen the massive changes in the security landscape in the last 18, 19 months ransomware. I was looking at some, some cybersecurity data that showed that just in the first half of this calendar year, January one to June 30, 20, 21, ransomware was up nearly 11 X DDoS attacks are up. We've got this remote workforce. That's going to probably persist for a while. So the ability to recover data from not if we get hit by ransomware, but when we get hit by ransomware is >>When you're, you're absolutely right. And, and, and to your plate anyway. So anyone can back up anything. When you look at it, it's at its highest form. We talk about point time where you orchestration, right. Backup is a use case. Dr. Is a use case, right? How do you, reorchestrate something that's complex, right? The containers, these applications in the cloud native space, there are morphous, they're living things, right? The metadata is different from one day to the next, the data itself is different from when one day the net to the next. So that's, what's so great about Trillium. It's such an elegant solution. It allows your, reorchestrate a point in time when and where you need it. So yes. You have to be able to recover. Yes. It's not a matter of if, but when. Right. And that's why recovery is part of that security conversation. Um, you know, I I've seen insurance companies, right? They want to provide insurance for ransomware. Well, you're gonna have enough attacks where they don't want to provide that insurance anymore. It costs too much. The investment that you make with, with Trulio will save you so much more money down the road. Right. Uh, who's our product manager actually gave a talk about that yesterday and the economics were really interesting. >>Hmm. So how has the recovery methodology who participates in that changed over time? As, as we, you know, as we are in this world of developer operators who take on greater responsibility for infrastructure things. Yeah. Who's, who's responsible for backup and recovery today and how, how has that changed >>Everyone? Everyone's responsible. So, you know, we rewind however many years, right? And it used predominantly CIS admin that was in charge of backup administrator, but a ticket in your backup administrator, right. Cloud native space and application lifecycle management is a team sport. Security is a team sport. It's a holistic approach. Right? So when you think about the, the team that you put out on the field, whether your DevOps, your SRE dev sec ops it ops, you're all going to have a need for point in time, we orchestration for various things and the term may not be backup. Right? It's something else. And maybe for test dev purposes, maybe for forensic purposes, maybe for Dr. Right. So I say it's a team sport and security as a holistic thing that everyone has to get on board with >>The three orchestration is exactly the right way to talk about absolute these processes. It's not just recovery, you're rebuilding >>Yeah. A complex environment. It's always changing. >>That's one of the guarantees. It's always going to be changing >>That much. >>Can you give us a, leave us with a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Trulio delivers? >>Yeah. So it's interesting. I won't say who the customer is, but I'll tell you it's in the defense agency, it's a defense agency. Uh, they have developers all over the place. Uh, they need self-service capabilities for the tenants to mind their own backups. So you don't need to contact someone, right. They can build, they have one >>Dashboard, single pane of glass or truth to manage all their Corinthians applications. And it gives them that infrastructure to progress whether your dev ops or not your it ops, uh, this, this group has rolled it out across the nation and they're using in their work with very sensitive environments. So now we have they're back. And what are some of the big business outcomes that they're achieving already? >>The big business outcomes? Well, so operational efficiencies are definitely first and foremost, right? Empowering the end user with more tools, right? Because we've seen this shift left and people talking about dev ops, right. So how do I empower them to do more? So I see that operational efficiency, the recoverability aspect, God forbid, something goes wrong. How do you, how do you do that in the cost of that? Um, and then also, um, being native to the environment, the Trillium solution is built for Kubernetes. It is built on go. It is a Qubit stateless Kubernetes application. So you have to have seamless integration into these environments. And then going back to what I was saying before, knowing peace of mind, the credibility aspect, that it is blessed by, you know, red hat and suicide Mirandas and all these other, other folks in the field, um, that you can guarantee it's going to work >>Well, that helps to give your customers the confidence that there, and that confidence might sound trivial. It's not, especially when we're talking about security, it's not at all that, that's a, that's a big business outcome for you guys. When a customer says, I'm confident I have the right solution, we're going to be able to recover when things happen, we try, we fully trust in the solution that we're, >>And we'll bring more into production faster that helps everyone out here too. Right? It feels good. You have that credibility. You have that assurance that I can move faster and I can move into different clouds faster. And that's, we're gonna continue to put, we're gonna continue to push the envelope there. You know, coming a, as we look into, you know, going forward, we're going to come out with other capabilities. That's going to continue to differentiate ourselves from, from folks. Uh, we'll, we'll talk about in time, the ability to propagate data across multiple clouds simultaneously. So making RTOs look at the split seconds and minutes. And so I hope that we can have that conversation next time we were together, because it's really exciting. >>Any, any CTA that you want to give to the audience, any, any, uh, like upcoming or recent webinars that you think they would be really benefit from? >>I guess one thing I put out there is that, um, I understand that people need to continuously learn. There is a skillset hole in, in this market. We can, we understand that, you know, and people look to us as not just a vendor, but a partner. And a lot of the questions that we do get are how do I do this? Or how do I do that? Engage us, ask us to consume our product is really, really easy. You can download from the website or go to an, you know, red hats operator hub, or go to the marketplace over at Susa, and let's begin to begin and we're here to help. And so reach out, right? We want everyone to be successful. >>Awesome. trillium.io. David, thank you for joining us. This has been an exciting conversation. Good >>To see you all. >>Likewise. Good to see you in person take care. We look forward to the next time we see you when unpacking what other great things are going on on Trulia. We appreciate your >>Time. Thank you so much. Good to be here >>For David's fie and David Nicholson, the two Davids I'm going to sandwich. I'm Lisa Martin, you we're coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is Q con cloud native con north America, 2021. Stick around our next guest joins us momentarily.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante as you well know by now the cloud is about shifting i.t labor to more strategic initiatives or as andy jassy laid out years ago removing the undifferentiated heavy lifting associated with deploying and managing i.t infrastructure cloud is also about changing the operating model and rapidly scaling a business operation or a company often overlooked with cloud however is the innovation piece of the puzzle a main source of that innovation is venture funded startup companies that have brilliant technologists who are mission driven and have a vision to solve really hard problems and enter a large market at scale to disrupt it hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we're pleased to welcome a special guest and author of the elite 80. a report that details the hottest privately held cyber security and i.t infrastructure companies in the world eric suppenger is that author and joins us today from jmp securities eric welcome to the cube thanks for being here thank you very much dave i'm uh i'm looking forward to uh to having a discussion here with you yeah me too this is going to be great so let's dive right into the elite 80. first if you could tell us about jmp securities and fill us in on the report its history your approach to picking the 80 companies out of thousands of choices sure so jmp is a middle markets investment bank we're a full full-service investment bank based in san francisco we were founded in 2000 and we focus on technology health care financial services and real estate i've been with jmp since 2011. um i've uh i've i cover uh cyber security companies public companies uh i cover uh it infrastructure companies uh more broadly and um we have having been based here in san francisco i've long kept uh a good dialogue with uh private companies uh that that compete with the public companies that i cover and so um about seven years ago i i started uh developing this uh this report which is really designed to highlight uh emerging uh private companies that uh that i think are are well positioned to be leaders in their respective markets and uh and over time we've um we've built the list up to about 80 companies and uh and we publish this report every year uh it's designed to uh to keep tabs on on the companies that are doing well and uh and we rotate about uh about 15 to 20 to 25 percent of the companies uh out of the report every year either as they get acquired or they do an ipo or um uh they uh they if we think that they are slowing and others are getting a little bit more uh more exciting and you talk directly to the companies that's part of your methodology as well you do a lot of background research digging into funding but you also talk to the executives at these companies correct yes for the most part we uh we try to talk to the ceos at least the cfos the object here is to build a a relationship with these companies so that we have some good insights into uh into how they're doing and and how the market trends are evolving as they relate to those companies in particular some of the some of the dynamics that go into us selecting companies is one we do have to talk to the management teams uh two we uh we we base our decisions on who we include on how the companies are performing on how their competitors are uh are are discussing those companies their performance uh how other industry contacts talk about those companies and then we we track their hiring and uh and and how they've uh you know other metrics that we can uh we can gauge them by got it okay so i dug into the report a little bit and tried to summarize a few key takeaways so let's take a look at those and if if you allow me just set up the points and then and ask you to add some color so the first two things that really you know jumped out i want to comment on are the perspectives of the technology companies and then of course the other side is the buyers so it seems that the pandemic really got startups to sharpen their focus i remember talking to a number of vcs early on in the shutdown and they were all over their portfolio companies to reset their icp their ideal customer profile and sharpen their uvp their unique value proposition and they wanted them to do that specifically in the context of the pandemic and the new reality and then on the buy side let's face it if you weren't a digital business you were out of business so picking up on those two thoughts eric what can you share with us in terms of the findings that you have well that's that's very uh consistent with what we had found uh basically um when the pandemic first when the lockdown came uh in march we reached out to quite a few companies and industry contacts at that time feedback was uh you know it was uh it was a period of great uncertainty and a lot of a lot of budgets were were tightened pretty quickly but it didn't take very long and a lot of these companies uh you know having been uh innovation engines and and emerging players what they found was that uh the broader market quickly adopted uh digital transformation in response to the pandemic basically that was how they they uh facilitated uh keeping their their doors open so to speak and so um the ones that were able to uh to leverage uh need for emerging technologies because of an acceleration in digital transformation uh they they really stepped up and and quite a few of these companies they kept hiring they kept uh their sales uh did very well and uh and ultimately um a lot of the vcs that had been uh putting on the brakes uh they actually stepped up and uh and and continued funding uh pretty generously yeah we've got some data on that that we wanna look into so thank you for that now let's take a look at some of the the specific date of the study just break that down the elite 80 raised more than three billion dollars last year eclipsing the previous highs in your studies of 2019 and then a big portion of that capital went to pretty small number only 10 of the 80 firms and and most of that went to cyber security plays so what do you make of these numbers especially you know given your history with with this group of elite companies and the high concentration this year this past year so one of the trends that we've seen in the public in the public market or the ipo market is um companies are are waiting until they're a little bit more mature than they used to be so what we've seen is um the the funding for companies uh the the larger rounds are far larger than they used to be these companies typically are waiting until they're of size you know maybe now they're waiting to be uh 200 million uh in annual salary in annual revenues versus a 100 million before and so they are consuming quite a bit the larger rounds are are much bigger than they used to be um in the in the most recent uh report that we published we had uh one round that was over half a billion and another one that was over 400 million and if you go back just a couple of few years ago a large round was over 100 million and you didn't get too many that were over 200 million so that's that's been a distinct change and and i think that's not necessarily just a function of the pandemic but i think the pandemic caused caused some companies to kind of step up the size of their rounds uh and so there were a handful of uh very large rounds uh certainly bigger than what we've ever seen before yeah those are great observations i mean you're right it was 100 million used to be the magic number to go public and now you get so much late money coming in locking in maybe smaller gains but giving that company you know a little more time to get their act together pre-ipo let's take a look at where the money went you know talk about follow the money and eric you and your team you segmented that three billion dollars into a number of different categories as i said most of it go into cyber security uh categories like application security is assessment and risk there's endpoint endpoint boomed during the pandemic same with identity and this chart really shows those categories that you created to better understand these dynamics and sort of figure out where the money went how did you come up with these these categories and what does this data tell you so these categories were basically uh homegrown these are how i um i think of these companies um it's a little bit of uh pulling some information out of uh the likes of gartner but uh for the most part this was how i how i conceptualize the landscape uh in my mind um the interesting thing to me is you know so a lot of that data is skewed by a few large transactions so um you know if you if you think about the the the allocation of those uh those different categories and and the uh investments in those categories it's it's skewed by large transactions and what was most interesting to me was one the application security space is a space that had quite a few additional smaller rounds and i think that's one that's pretty interesting going forward and then the one that was a surprise to me more than that was the data management um outside of cyber security uh data management's a space that's getting uh a lot more attention and uh and it's getting um uh some pretty good uh growth so that's a space that we're uh we're paying some good good attention to as well yeah that's interesting i mean of course data management means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and vc's throwing money at it maybe trying to define it and then and then the the the ai ops and and the that data management piece you know took a took a portion of it but wow the the cyber guys really are are killing it and now as we mentioned ten companies sucked up the lion's share of of the funding and this next chart shows that concentration of those 10 investments so eric some big numbers here one trust secured more than a half a billion dollars four others nabbed more than a quarter billion in funding give us your thoughts on this what do you make of that high concentration well um i i think this is a function of companies that are waiting uh longer than they used to um they're these these companies are getting to be of considerable scale i mean titanium would be a good example that's a company that could have gone public years ago and uh and i don't think they're particularly eager to get out the door uh they provide liquidity to their previous investors by raising money and uh and and buying those shares back um and so they uh they basically uh just continue to uh to grow uh without the uh the burden or or the um uh the demands that being a public company create um so there's this that's that's really a function of of companies just waiting longer before they get out the door got it now here's another view of that that data the so the left side of this chart uh that we we want to show you next um gives you a sense of the size of the companies the revenue in the elite 80 and you know most of these companies have broken through the 100 million dollar revenue mark as you say uh and they're they're still private and so you can see the breakdown and then the right-hand side of the chart shows the most active investors we just pulled out those with three or more transactions and it's it's interesting to see the players there and of course you've got some strategics you got city in there you've got cisco along with a little bit of p and e private equity action maybe your thoughts on on on this data so so to give you a little flavor around the uh the size of these companies when we first started publishing this report a little bit of the goal was to try to keep those categories relatively equal and as you can see they've skewed uh far to the left uh towards the uh to the larger revenue stream you know size so that's that just goes to the point that um uh the the companies that uh you know that are getting that a lot of these private companies uh they're they're of saw considerable size before they uh they really go out the door and and i think that's a reflection of um of the caliber of uh of or the quality of investments that uh that are out there today these are companies that have built very mature businesses and they're not going into the market until um until they can demonstrate uh high confidence and uh and consistency in their performance yeah i mean you i remember when when cloudera took that massive i think it was the 750 billion a million dollar investment from uh from intel you know way back when they that bridged them to ipo and that was sort of if i recall started that that trend and then now you get a ipo last year like snowflake which is price to perfection and you got guys that really know how to do this they've done it a number of times and so it really is somewhat changed that that dynamic uh for ipos which of course came booming back it was so quiet there for so many years but let's look into these markets a bit um i want to talk about the security space and the i.t infrastructure space and here's a chart from optiv which is one of the elite 80 ironically and we've shared this with with our audience before and the point of this is that the cyber security spaces it's highly fragmented we've reported on this a lot it's got hundreds and hundreds of companies in there it's just mosaic of solutions so very complicated and bespoke sets of tooling and combine that with a lack of skilled expertise you know csos tell us the lack of talent is their biggest challenge makes it a really dynamic market and eric this is part of the reason why vcs they want in so the takeaway i get from that chart is we have a lot of um we still have a great need for best of breed um digital transformation uh cloud mobile all these trends are creating such a disruption that there's still a great opportunity for somebody that can deliver a uh you know a real best of the best of breed uh solution uh in spite of uh all the challenges that uh id it departments are having with trying to uh to meet you know security requirements and things like that uh the the world has embraced uh you know digital delivery and uh you are your success is oftentimes dependent on your your digital differentiation and if that's the case then there's always going to be opportunity for a better technology out there so that's that in the end is uh is why uh optiv has a uh a line card that's uh as as long as you can read it i'm glad you brought the point about best of breeze it's an age-old debate in the industry it's do we go best of breed or do we go you know integrated suites you know you look at a company like microsoft obviously that that works very well for them uh companies like cisco but so this next uh set of data we're gonna bring in some etr customer spending data and see where the momentum is and i think it'll really underscore the points that you're making there in terms of best of breed this chart shares a popular view that we like to to share with our community on the vertical axis is net score or that's spending velocity and the horizontal axis shows market share or pervasiveness in the data as we've said before anything above 40 percent that red line on the vertical axis is considered elevated and you can see a lot of companies in cyber security are above that mark now a couple points i want to make here before we bring eric back in first is the market it's fragmented but it's pretty large at over 100 billion dollars depending on which research firm you look at it's growing at you know the low double digits so so nice growth is putting on 10 billion dollars a year into that number and there are some big pure plays like palo alto networks and fortinet but the market includes some other large whales like cisco uh they've built up a sizeable security business microsoft microsoft's in most markets and serves its you know software customers so but you can see how crowded this market is now we've superimposed in the red recent valuations for some of the companies and and the other point we want to make is there's some big numbers here and some divergence between us eric was saying the the best of breed and the integrated suites and the pandemic as we've talked about a lot is fueled a shift in cyber strategies toward endpoint identity and cloud and you can see that in crowdstrike's 50 billion plus valuation octa another best of breed 34 billion dollars in identity they just bought off zero and paid four and a half billion dollars for auth0 to get access to the developer community z scaler at 28 billion proof point is going private at a 12 billion dollar number so you can see why vcs are pouring money into this market some really attractive valuations eric what are your thoughts on this data so my interpretation is that's that's just further validation that uh that these security markets are uh are getting disrupted and uh and the truth of the matter is there's only one um really well positioned uh platform player in there uh uh palo alto the rest of them are are platforms within their respective uh security technology space but uh you know there's there's not very many um you know broad security solution providers today and the reason for that is because we've got such a uh transformation going on uh across uh technology that the need for best of breed is uh is is getting recognized uh day in day out yeah you're right palo alto they're they csos love to work with palo alto they're kind of the high-end gold standard but and we reported last year on the divergence in valuations between fortinet and palo alto networks fortinet was doing a better job you know pivoting to the cloud we said palo alto will get its act together it did but then you see these pure play best of breeds really you know doing well so now let's take a look at the it infrastructure space and it's it's quite different in terms of the dynamics of the market so here's that same view of the etr data and we've cut it by uh three categories we cut on networking servers and storage and this is a very large market it's it's it's over 200 billion dollars but it's much more of an oligopoly in that you've got great concentration at the top you've got some really big companies like cisco and dell which is spinning out vmware so we're going to unlock you know more value of the core dell company dell's valuation is 79 billion and that includes its 80 ownership in vmware so you do the math and figure out what core dell is worth hpe is much smaller it's notable that its valuation is comparable to netapp netapp's around you know one-fifth the size of revenue-wise uh hpe now eric arista they stand out as the lone player that's having some success clearly against cisco what are your thoughts on on the infrastructure space so so a couple things i'll take away from that now first off uh you mentioned arista arista is a bit of an anomaly um a switching company you know a networking company that is in that upper echelon like you've pointed out above 40 percent it is it is unique and and basically they kind of cracked the code they figured out how to beat cisco at cisco's core competency which is traditionally switching switching and routing and they they did that by delivering a very differentiated uh uh hardware product um that that they were able to tap into some markets that uh that even cisco hasn't been able to open up and and those would be the hyperscale uh hyperscale you know hosting vendors like uh google and facebook and microsoft but i would i would put i would put arista kind of in a in a unique situation the other thing that i'll just point out that i think is an interesting takeaway from the um from the the the slide that you showed is there are some uh infrastructure or what i would consider is bordering on data management type companies i mean you look at uh rubric you look at cohesity and nutanix veeam they're they're all kind of bubbling up there and pure storage and i think that comes back to what i was mentioning earlier where there is some pretty interesting innovation going on in data management which has traditionally not had a lot of innovation so i would bet you those names would have bubbled up just in the last uh year or two where that's been a market that hasn't had a lot of innovation and and now there's some interesting things coming down the pipe you know that's interesting comments that you make in there because if you think back to sort of last decade arista obviously broke out the only two other companies in the in the core infrastructure space and this was a hardware game historically but it's obviously becoming a software game but take a look at pure storage and nutanix you can see their valuations at five billion and seven point four billion dollars respectively uh and then to your point cohesity you got them at 3.7 billion just did a recent you know round rubric 3.3 billion that's from 2019 and so you know presumably that's a higher valuation now veeam got taken out last january at five billion by uh inside capital uh and so i think they're doing very well and they're probably uh up from that and susa is going public at uh at a reported seven billion dollar valuation so quite a bit different dynamic in the infrastructure space so eric i want to bring it back to the elite 80 in in in in startups in general my first question to you is is what do you look for from successful startups to make this elite 80 list so a few factors first off uh their performance is uh is is one of the primary uh situations if it's a company that's not growing we'll we'll probably pull it from the list um i would say it is also very much a function of my perception of the quality of management uh we we do meet with all these management teams um if we feel like uh they're they're they're putting together a uh you know a um a leadership team that's gonna be around for a long time and they've got a product position that's uh pretty attractive uh those would certainly be two key aspects of what i look for beyond that uh certainly feedback that we get from competitors uh feedback that we get from industry contacts like resellers and then then i'd also just say my enthusiasm for their respective market that they're in if it's a a market that i think is is going to be difficult or flat or not very interesting then then that would certainly be a a reason to to not include them uh conversely even if it's a small company if it's if it's a sector that i think is going to be uh around for quite a while and it's very differentiated uh then we'll include um a lot of the smaller companies too well a good example that's like a weka i mean i don't want to i don't want to go into these companies but two because we believe we 80 companies are going to leave somebody else but that that's a good example of a smaller company that looks to be disruptive um how should enterprise customers the buyers do you think evaluate and filter startups you have any sense of that well um a couple things that i struggle with that that would be uh you know something that's a lot more readily available to them is uh is just the quality of the product i mean that's obviously uh why why they're looking at it but uh if it's a uh if it's a company that's got a a unique product that uh is is built uh you know that that can that can that works that would be the starting point then then beyond that it's also is it a management team is is the behavior of the company something that uh reflects a management team that's uh that's that's you know a high quality management team if they if they you know are responsive if they're following up if they're not trying to pull in business uh quickly if they're priced appropriately uh metrics like that would certainly be um key aspects that would be readily available to uh to the you know to the the buyers of technology beyond that um you know i think the viability of that market is going to be uh a key aspect as to whether or not that company is going to be around even if it's a good company if uh if it's a highly competitive uh market that's going to have some big big players that can kind of integrate it and to make it a feature across other other product lines then that's going to make it a a tough a tough road to to go for a start-up these days you know the other thing i wanted to to talk about was the risks and the rewards of working with with startup companies and i've had i've had cios and and enterprise architects tell me that they'll when when they have to do an rfp they'll pull out the gartner magic quadrant they'll always you know pick a couple in the top right just to cover their butts but they many say you know what we also pick some of those those in the challenger space because because that are that are really interesting to us and and we run them through the paces and we manage those risks we don't we don't run the company on them but it helps us find these diamonds in the rough i mean think about you know in the in this in the second part of last decade if you picked a snowflake you might have been able to get ahead of some of your competition things like data sharing or or maybe you found that that well you know what octa is going to help me with my identity in in a new way and you're going to be better prepared to be a digital business but do you have any thoughts on how uh people should manage those risks and and how they should think about the upside i don't i don't think today um a a you know a company can work today using legacy technologies i i think the risk the greater risk is falling behind from a a digital transformation perspective this this era i think the pandemic is probably the best proof point of this um you can't you can't go with just a uh a traditional legacy architecture in a in in a key aspect of your business and so the startups um i i think you've got to take the quote-unquote risk of working with a startup that's uh you know that's got a viability concern or sustainability concern uh the risk of of having a um uh an i.t infrastructure that's inadequate is uh is a far greater risk from my perspective so i think that the startups right now are are are in a very strong position and they're well funded that's the last question i wanted to talk about is how will startups kind of penetrate the enterprise in this modern era i mean you know this is really a software world and software is this sort of capital efficient business but yet you're seeing companies raise hundreds of millions of dollars i mean that's not even absurd these days you see companies go to ipo that have raised over a billion dollars and much of that if not most of it goes to promotion and go to market uh so so how maybe you could give us your perspectives on how you see startups getting into the enterprise in these sectors so i one of the really interesting things that we've seen in the last couple years is a lot of changes to sales models and and if you look at the mid market the ability to leverage viral sales models uh has been wildly successful for some companies um it's been um you know a great strategy uh there's a public company ubiquity that did a uh has built a multi-billion dollar uh you know business on on without without a sales organization so there's some pretty interesting um directions that i think sales and go to market is going to uh incur over the over the coming years uh traditional enterprise sales i think are still uh pretty standard today but i i think that the efficiency of um of you know social networking and and uh and and what would the the delivery of uh of products on on a digital for in a digital format is going to change the way that we do sales so i think i think there's a lot of efficiencies that are going to come in uh in sales over the coming years that's interesting because then you'll you know i i think you're right and and and instead of just just pouring money at promotion maybe get more efficient there and pour money in into engineering because that really is the long-term sustainable value that these companies are going to create right yeah i i would absolutely agree with that and um again if you look at the you know if you look at the charts of the well-established players that that you had mentioned those companies are where they are that the ones at the top are where they are because of their technology i mean it's it's not because of uh their go to market it's it's it's because they have something that other people can't uh can't replicate right well eric hey it's been great having you on today thanks so much for joining us really appreciate your time well dave i greatly appreciate it uh it's been a lot of fun so uh so thank you all right hey go get the elite 80 report all you got to do is search jmp elite 80 and it'll it'll come up there's a there's a lot of data out there so it's really a worthwhile reference tool and uh so thank you everybody for watching remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen you can check out etr's website at etr dot plus and we also publish weekly a full report on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me david.velante at siliconangle.com or dm me on twitter at divalante hit up hit our linkedin post and really appreciate those comments this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week everybody stay safe and we'll see you next time you

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Susic on digital brought to you by Susan. >>Right? Hi. I'm Stew Minuteman. And welcome to the Cube's coverage of Susic on Digital 20. Rather than gathering together in Dublin, we have a larger audience online watching everything digitally, really helping a happy to have on the program. Back to the program. One of our cube alumni. She is fresh off the keynote stage. Melissa DiDonato. She is the CEO of Tuesday. Melissa. So good to see you. Wish it could all be in person. But, you know, thanks for having the Cube in. Ah, >>thank you very much for joining us as well. My third time on the show. I'm really, really pleased to be an important part of our digital experience with Susie. Conditional. So still what? Nice to see you. >>All right. So last time you were on the program, you spoke to Dave. Dave a lot today about how you know you're keeping your employees safe and keeping them productive. The note I heard clearly from you in your keynote presentation is really a sense of optimism. So, like, if you could bring us a little bit inside. You know, I'm sure you're talking to a lot of your customers. What is it even then in these unprecedented Well, I'm giving you that sense of optimism. >>Yeah, there's no denying where we are in the world with Kobe. 19. We have a whole different way of looking at the world. Every business in every industry has been impacted, and not just the working life but our family life. The way we communicate, the way we run our homes, our environments at work is it's been very much integrated now. It's a very different way of adding a whole different level of stress that we didn't have in our business life just a couple of months ago. And I think, as I told Dave, the most important thing for me is number one to make sure that our employees remain self safe and healthy. That's number one, And I think that as we experience negativity across the world of news and social media, etcetera, that my hope is that the community and the Susan family remain optimistic and you know, why do we have the ability to remain optimistic when everyone else is experiencing a lot of doom and gloom. One White House, because you rightly so said, Let me talk about Sousa and how we wouldn't in our community. Our thesis is the power of many. This power of many in a virtual community really drives innovation. We're not like proprietary software and many other tech companies where you have to resign the building to make sure that we maintain and evangelize innovation that you live and deliver to your customers. For us, it's very different. Our community is the basis for innovation. It's the pillar of our community, of our company, our ethos in our value. So it's Susa. This spirit of collaboration and integration is live today more than ever before, with 99% of our employees working from home being engaged a very different way than maybe they're used to. But not so unlike engaging the innovation that we get out of our community. I think you mentioned something else do that's really important. That's productivity. We've moved away as of the first of March and measuring productivity in exchange for measuring the way that we integrate and elaborate and engage with our place. So instead of productivity, we're measuring engagement. Our employees are becoming much more engaged with each other with our customers and our communities. And of course, our partners they're giving back to their community. They're measuring the engagement they're successful means of delivering or how much they can give back to their communities. So we've seen a huge rise and are employees giving back to their communities around them. For example, I met an employee who is donating a very big part of his bonus percentage to a hospital to pay for lunches for frontline health workers near his his home, our nerve of Germany office. They're giving their lunch vouchers and donating that to all of the homeless people around their community. And then we've got employees around Italy, one in particular that's created a virtual classroom for a son school and the community around him. So you know, everyone's really pitching in, I think finally, from a community perspective, we're also sponsoring a numerous amount of hackathons. For example, in Germany, the government has recently held a hackathon for community based solutions to combat code. In 19 our employees participated in engaged with their one day off. We give every employee one day off a year to engage for charitable cause and the results of this hackathon is a better understanding of the data per states about code in 19 across the country. So I think all in all, everything that we're doing is really trying to, you know, utilize the community as we always have, is open source. Open source is developed in a community that often times does not sit together. And now we're trying to really engage with that community as much as possible to keep innovation alive, to keep collaboration alive and not just for the purpose of innovation, but for the purpose of combating the virus and giving hope and first gratitude to this community and across all of our population across the world. I really do believe that in challenging times like today, it's the best way to realize the innovation that we can put together, triggering innovation for good. But also bringing out the best in humanity is it's amazing to see what you know. Thousands and thousands of people in the open source world are giving and delivering and collaborating in which to solve the worlds Problems Cove in 19 but also innovation problems for today and tomorrow >>Yeah, Melissa said some great stories that you have there, you know, we, of course, are huge supporters of communities in general. I've had a great pleasure not only recently but over the last 20 years, watching Linux communities on what's happening in open source. One of the key constituencies, obviously, to your audience, our developers. There are quite a few announcements that I talked about on the keynote stage was wondering if you could help walk through Ah, for our audience. You know, the primary announcements and especially, you know, the impact that it will have on the developer developer community. >>Yeah, that's right. So the developers are entranced, obviously, as part of Susa, where deep open source roots and they're ingrained in our culture. So we just recently focused on a new developer community with content specifically targeted to developer use cases for application platform offering. So over the next couple of months, we're gonna roll out content analytics, open source, Dev >>ops. All >>these things that you are sure loves to micro services, containers, kubernetes edge and and the like. So a lot of innovative technologies as our content. Now what we are offering in the developer community is the SuSE Cloud application platform developer sandbox. We wanted to make it easy for these developers who just spoke of to benefit from the best practices that evolved from the cloud native application delivery that we offer every day. Of course, the customers and now for free to our developers, we want them to be able to easier, easily apply their skills to create applications that can run anywhere, anywhere from on Prem Private Public Cloud and the access is and the developers to get access and hands on experience. That SuSE cloud application platform without having to spend all of their own environment is it is a big test or commitment to the developer community that can explore tests and develop without having any hardware services themselves. It's a really I've signed up myself. Hopefully, you will, too, and join the community and give some feedback and engage in this open source community. For developers, it's really important for everybody. You can find it at developer dot cisco dot com, in addition to the sandbox is I just mentioned you'll also find there are developer forums. It's got getting started guides and other useful examples of how to accelerate the adoption of the cloud application platform and all of the demo tools you can use. It's I can't express the importance enough that we put in place in our developers. Our developer community is a really important part to reach the innovation that we so hoped and live for every day. So we need to provide them the tools to be successful. So I think when you're gonna see Studio is a lot more engagement with our developer community and a lot more integration with them, a collaboration with them. As time goes on, it's a big part of our focus coming in now to 2020 and, of course, the second half of the year. >>So, Melissa, one of the other point that you made in your keynote is that Souza is now, you know, fully independent. It's always been an open source company, a long history there. But what does this one year of independence mean for your customers and that partner ecosystem? >>Yeah, it's a big deal for us, so it's a really big deal. We swung away from micro focus a year ago and mark so just now, Pastor, one year we're now in control of our destiny and the future is very, very bright. I think going forward in the next year, what you can expect from Susan is continued focus and support our customers, of course, the digital transformation efforts that we need to put into helping them go through this transformation. I saw a cartoon, You know, the other day everyone probably saw who's leading your digital transformation. Experts efforts your CEO, your see Iot or Corona virus. And I think we all agree that Corona viruses, but a new effort and focus on the digital transformation of our companies and our customers need to go through. So I think we need to be sure that with this new independence that we focus on that digital transformation effort. Couple that with our open source innovation and no matter where our customers are on their journey, that we give them the enabling tools to get there. We start with simplifying, modernizing and accelerating our customers journey, and you're gonna hear a lot about that in the keynote that I just did, um, simplifying first. So simplifying and optimizing our customer's applications and the data to exist in I T Environment. That's going to help them go on the journey to modernize, modernizing everything about the I T infrastructure as well as their legacy applications, to utilize modernizing, modernized technologies like containers or edge or cloud, or for the like. By simplifying and modernizing, our customers can then begin to accelerate. They can accelerate innovation. They can accelerate growth. They can accelerate delivery of whatever services and applications they want to deliver, for example, capabilities around AI and edge. And they can scale their companies to bring markets product to market faster and even at a lower cost. So I think when you think about Susan our independence, I want our customers to know and understand that our focus will always be to simplify, modernize and accelerate, but also to remain nimble, how our customers, our partners, our community, innovate faster based on customer business requirements and to solve problems of today and tomorrow, not just what we knew before. So we're much more connected with our customers and ever before, and we want to be able to offer them the flexibility that they heard that learned to love it. Enjoy from Susa more some now than ever our customers agenda. Su is our only agenda in a world where everyone wants to be the best at everything. The only thing we want to be number one with is customer satisfaction. We will say number one in the market because we love servicing our customers. We love being maniacally focused on our customers, needs their business problems and creating solutions that are tailored with services that make them more successful. I think you can expect Souza to enter new markets like powering, for example, autonomous vehicles with safety certified legs and other really innovative technologies that were developed every single day in our community with our developers to solve customer business problems. I say to the teams every day, you know, we're big enough for scale, and we're small enough to be nimble and to be flexible to service our customers first. So expecting that from Susa in our independence, but always, of course. >>Yeah, Melissa, you talk about things like ai and Ed and innovation, and you just brought up autonomous vehicles. So, you know, not only is a cool area, but really highlights uh, you know, a lot of these waves coming together. You announced up onstage. Really cool looking company. Electro bit. I noticed there, Green almost matched. Your companies do So. Tell us about this. This is a partnership. Why? It's important. And you know what? What others can learn about it. >>Yeah, sure. So Electra bit. We just partnered with that. Made the announcement today in the keynote there, the leading Internet global international provider of embedded software solutions for automotive. So it's a whole new area for US safety certified Linux is the first for Susan in this industry. I recently met virtually with Alexander coaching the CEO Electra bit to learn more about his company innovation, that we're gonna drive together. We've got a whole session at Susan Con Digital in the platform to talk about what we're doing with safety certified Lennox and what we're doing with Elektra bit. I can't wait to tell you more about, and I've got a 1 to 1 fireside chat with Alex, and I think you're gonna love to learn more about, you know, maybe something else. Wei mentioned in the keynote they may want to know about. And that's the artificial intelligence solution that I specifically talked about launching next quarter. This is I'm super excited about as well. I mean, it's really easy to be excited here, Susan, when you have constant rolling innovation in our community and delivering that to our customers. But this is also an exciting space. The solution that we're launching next quarter is going to benefit both data scientists and I t operations teams by simplifying the integration of key AI building blocks that are going to be required to develop quickly test and then deploy the next generation of intelligence solutions. So keep your eyes open for that to we're gonna have some game changing solutions for Susan and all of our customer promise ai solution next quarter. So two big announcements for us here exclusively. It's music on digital. I can't wait to share all the details Next order with AI, but also with Alex in the fireside chat I had with him during the week. >>Alright, So great, Melissa, A couple of big announcements that you talked about give >>us a >>little bit of a look forward. So, you know, you talked about what? One year of it, and it means what should people be looking at? What goals do you have for the community and the company actually look through the rest of 2020 >>as we look to the rest of 2020. I think, um, it's been a hard year already, and I couldn't have predicted when I took over a CEO of this great company nearly 10 months ago that we'd be having the hard times that we currently have. I can honestly say that there's no place I'd rather be. The fact that we are in the best company in the best industry, with open source at our roots at our heart that will never change but you can expect from us is consistent and constant innovation. You could look for us to be nimble, dependable. You can look for us for growth and there ever were a recession proof company that delivers the best solutions to our customers. I think Susie's in fact, I know it is. We're going to double in size and three years, so we're going to go from just under 1/2 a 1,000,000,000 to a 1,000,000,000 in revenue and what in three years time and we've got the constant trajectory and the means of which to do it. We're really looking from a strategic perspective. The rest of this year. How can we simplify, modernize, accelerate the solutions delivered to our customers to ensure we constantly focus on innovative technologies, keeping open source of value's and ethos to our core? And then also consider how do we ensure a safe, stable quality environment that's building on tools such as optimizing and automating their environment to get the best out of their technology stack? And that's when you should expect to see from some of the rest of this year as we go obviously into 2021. You're gonna want to watch the space to stay tuned for the look at Susa. We're growing like a rocket ship, and we have still intention of going through the crisis and, of course, going into the back half of 2020. But we're accelerating with pace going into 2021. >>Alright, well, Melissa, I'm definitely looking forward to talking to some of your customers, some of your partners in some of your team. So thanks again for joining us, definitely looking forward to catching up with you further down the line. >>I look forward to it. Thank you so much for the time today, and obviously the focus on, Susan. We're super excited to share where we're going, where we've come from and what the journey looks like Ahead. So thanks for the excitement that you're sharing with us throughout this week. Really appreciate you. Thank you. >>Alright. And be sure to stay with us. We've got wall to wall coverage Susic on digital money. Even if we're not at a physical event, we get to do them all remotely digitally. That global digital experience. I'm stew Minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Susic on digital brought to you by Susan. >>Welcome back. I'm stew minimum in coming to you from our Boston area studio. And this is the Cube's coverage of Silicon Digital 20. Happy to welcome to the program. Two of the keynote president presenters. First of all, we have Dr Mr Giacomo. He is the president of engineering and innovation and joining him, his presenter on the keynote stage, Daniel Nelson, who is the Vice president of Product solutions. Both of you with Souza. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Thank you for having us. >>All right, So? So, Dr T let let's start out. You know, innovation, open source. Give us a little bit of the message for our audience that Daniel are talking about on stage. You know how you know we've been watching for decades the growth in the proliferation of open source and communities. So give us the update there, >>Andi. It's not stopping. It's actually growing even more and more and more and more innovations coming from open source. The way we look at it is that our customers that they have their business problems have their business reality. Andi s So we we have to curate and prepare and filter all the open source innovation that they can benefit from because that takes time to understand that. Match your needs and fix your problems. So it's Susa. We've always done that since 27 per sales. So working in the open source projects innovating they are, but with customers in mind. And what is pretty clear in 2020 is that large enterprises, small startups. Everybody's doing software. Everybody's doing, I t. And they all have the same type of needs in a way. They need to simplify their landscape because they've been accumulating investments all the way. Our infrastructure Joseph well, different solutions, different platforms from different bundles. They need to simplify that and modernize and the need to accelerate their business, to stay relevant and competitive in their own industries. And that's what we're focusing on. >>Yeah, it's interesting. I completely agree. When you say simplify thing, you know, Daniel, I I go back in the communities about 20 years, and in those days, you know, we were talking about the operating clinic was helping to, you know, go past the proprietary UNIX platforms. Microsoft, the enemy. And you were talking about, you know, operating system server storage, the application that it was a relatively simple environment and inherited today's, you know, multi cloud ai in your based architecture, you know, applications going through this radical transformation growth, though, give us a little bit of insight as to, you know, the impact this is having on ecosystems. And of course, you know, Susie's now has a broad portfolio that at all >>it's a great question, and I totally get where you're coming from. Like if you look 20 years ago, the landscape is completely different that the technologies were using or you're completely different. The problems were trying to solve with technology are more and more sophisticated, you know, at the same time that you know, there's kind of nothing new under the sun, every company, every technology, you know, every you know, modality goes through. This expansion of capabilities and the collapse around simplification is the capabilities become more more complex, manageable. And so there's this continuous tension between capabilities, ease of use, consume ability. What we see with open source is that that that that's kind of dynamic that still exist, but it's more online of like. Developers want easy to use technologies, but they want the cutting edge. They want the latest things. They want those things within their packets. And then if you look at operations groups or or or people that are trying to consume that technology, they want that technology to be consumable simple. It works well with others. People tend to pick and choose and have one pane of glass field operate within that. And that's where we see this dynamic. And that's kind of what the Susan portfolio was built. It's like, How do we take, you know, the thousands and thousands of developers that are working on these really critical projects, whether it's Linux is like you mentioned or kubernetes or for cloud foundry? And how do we make that then more consumable to the thousands of companies that are trying to do it, who may even be new to open source or may not contribute directly but have all the benefits that are coming to it. And that's where Susan fits and worse. Susan, who's fits historically and where we see us continuing to fit long term, is taking older is Legos. Put it together for companies that want that and then allow them a lot of autonomy and choice and how these technologies are consumed. >>One of the themes that I heard you both talked about in the keynote it was simplifying modernized. Telerate really reminded me of the imperatives of the CIO. You know, there's always run the business they need to help grow the business. And if they have the opportunity, they want to transform the business. I think you know, you said run improve in scale scale. Absolutely. You know, a critical thing that we talk about these days when I think back to the Cloud Foundry summit. You know, on the keynote stage, it was in the old way. If I could do faster, better, cheaper. Ah, you could use two of them today. We know faster, faster, faster is what you want. So >>it was a >>little bit of insight as to who you know, you talked about, you know, cloud foundry and kubernetes application modernization. You know, what are the imperatives that you're hearing from customers? And how are we with all of these tools out there? Hoping, You know, I t not just be responsive to the business, but it actually be a driver for the transformation of the business. >>It's a great question. And so when I talk to customers and Dr T feel free to chime in, you talked. You know, as many or more customers than then Ideo. You know they do have these these what are historically competing imperatives. But what we see with the adoption of some of these technologies that that faster is cheaper, faster is safer, you know, creating more opportunities to grow and to innovate better is the business. It's not risk injection when we change something, it's actually risk mitigation when we get good and changing. And so it's kind of that that that modality of moving from, um, you know, a a simplify model or very kind of like a manufacturing model of software so much more organic, much more permissive, much more being able to learn with an ecosystem style. And so that's how we see companies start to change the way they're adopting the technology. What's interesting about them is that same level of adoption that seemed thought of adoption is also how open source is is developed open source is developed organically is developed with many eyes. Make shallow bots is developed by like, Let me try this and see what happens right and be able to do that in smaller and smaller recommends. Just like we look at red Green deployments or being able to do micro services or binary or any of those things. It's like let's not do one greatly or what we're used to in waterfall, cause that's actually really risk. Let's do many, many, many steps forward and be able to transform an iterative Lee and be able to go faster iterative Lee and make that just part of what the business is good at. And so you're exactly right, like those are the three imperatives of the CIO. What I see with customers is the more that they are aligning those three areas together and not making them separate. But we have to be better at being faster and being transformed. And those are the companies that are really using I t. As a competitive advantage within the rich. >>Yeah, because most of the time they're different starting points. They have a history. They have different business strategy and things they've done in the past, you need to be able to accommodate all of that and the faster micro service, that native developments for sure, for the new APS. But they're also coming from somewhere on diff. You don't take care of that. You get are you can just accelerates if you simplify your existing because otherwise you spend your time making sure that your existing it's still running. So you have to combine all of that together. And, yeah, do you mentioned about funding and communities? And that's really I love those topics because, I mean, everybody knows about humanities. Now. It's picking up in terms of adoption in terms of innovation, technology building ai ml framework on top of it now, what's very interesting as where is that cloud? Foundry was designed for fast software development until native from the beginning, that 12 factor app on several like 45 years ago. Right? What we see now is we can extract the value that cloud foundry brings to speed up and accelerate your stuff by the Romans hikers, and we can combine that very nicely on very smoothly, simple in a simple way, with all the benefits you get from kubernetes and not from one communities from your communities running in your public clouds because you have records. They are. You have services that you want to consume from one public clouds. We have a great silicon fireside chat with open shot from Microsoft Azure actually discussing those topics. You might have also communities clusters at the edge that you want to run in your factory or close to your data and workloads in the field. So those things and then you mentioned that as well, taking care of the I T ops, simplify, modernize and accelerate for the I T ops and also accelerates forward their local themselves. We're benefiting from a combination of open source technologies, and today there's not one open source technology that can do that. You need to bundle, combine them, get our best, make sure that they are. They are integrated, that they are certified to get out of their stable together, that the security aspects, all the technology around them are integrating the services as well. >>Well, I'm really glad you brought up, you know, some of those communities that are out there, you know, we've been saying for a couple of years on the Cube. You know, Kubernetes is getting baked in everywhere. You know, Cisco's got partnerships with all the cloud providers, and you're not fighting them over whether to use a solution that you have versus theirs. I worry a little bit about how do I manage all of those environments. You end up with kubernetes sprawl just like we have with every other technology out there. Help us understand what differentiates Tuesday's, you know, offerings in this space. And how do you fit in with you know, the rest of that very dynamic and defer. >>So let me start with the aspect of combining things together on and Danielle. Maybe you can take the management piece. So the way we are making sure that Sousa, that we don't also just miles into a so this time off tools we have a stack, and we're very happy if people use it. But the reality is that there are customers that they have. Some investments have different needs. They use different technologies from the past. But we want to try different technologies, so you have to make sure that's for communities. Like for any other part of the stack. The I T stock of the stack. Your pieces are model around that you can accommodate different. Different elements are typically at Susa. We support different types off hyper visors. Well, that's focused on one. But we can support KPMG's and I probably this way, all of the of the Nutanix, hyper visor, netapp, hyper visors and everything. Same thing with the OS. There's not only one, we know that people are running, and that's exactly the same. Which humanities? And there's no one, probably that I've seen in our customer base that will just need one vendor for communities because they have a hybrid needs and strategy, and they will benefit from the native communities they found on a ks e ks decay. I remember clouds, you name them Andi have vendors in Europe as well. Doing that so far for us, it's very important that we bring us Sutro. Custom. Males can be combined with what they have, what they want, even if it's from the circle competition. And so this is a cloud. Foundry is running on a case. You can find it on the marketplace of public clouds. It could run on any any any communities. He doesn't have to be sitting on it. But then you end up with a lot of sales, right? How do we deal with that? >>So it's a great question, and I'll actually even broaden that out because it's not like we're only running kubernetes. Yes, we've got lots of clusters. We've got lots of of containers. We've got lots of applications that are moving there, but it's not like all the V M's disappear. It's not like all the beige boxes, like in the data center, like suddenly don't exist. You know, we we we all bring all the sense and decisions in the past word with us wherever we go. And so for us, it's not just that lens of how do we manage the most modern, the most cutting edge? That's definitely a part of it. But how do you do that? Within the context of all the other things you have to do within your business? How do I manage virtual virtual machines? How do I manage bare metal? How do I manage all those? And so for us, it's about creating a presentation layer on top of that where you can look at your clusters. Look at your V EMS. Look at all your deployments and be able to understand what's actually happening with the fire. We don't take a prescriptive approach. We don't say you have to use one technology. You have to use that. What we want to do is to be adaptive to the customer's needs. And so you've got these things here, some of our offerings. You've got some legacy offerings to Let's show you bring those together. Let's show you how you modernize your viewpoints, how you simplify your operational framework and how you end up accelerating what you can do with the staff that you've got in place. >>Yeah, I'm just on the management piece. Is there any recommendation from your team? You know, last year at Microsoft ignite, there was the launch of Azure are on. And, you know, we're starting to see a lot of solutions come out. There are concerns. Is that any of us that live through the multi vendor management days, um, you know, don't have good memories from those. It is a different discussion if we're just talking about kind of managing multiple kubernetes. But how do we learn from the past and you know, What do you recommend for people in this, you know, multi cloud era. >>So my suggestion to customers is you always start with what are your needs? What is strategic problems you're trying to solve, and then choose a vendor that is going to help you solve those strategic problems? So is it going to take a product centric view Isn't gonna tell you use this technology and this technology and this technology, what is going to take the view of, like, this is the problem you're gonna solve? Let me be your advisor within that and choose people that you're going to trust within that, um, that being said, you wanna have relationships with customers that have been there for a while that have done this that have a breath of experience in solving enterprise problems because everything that we're talking about is mostly around the new things. But keep in mind that there are there are nuances about the enterprise. There are things that are that are intrinsically bound within the enterprise that it takes a vendor with a lot of enterprise experience to be able to meet customers where they are. I think you've seen that you know in some of the some of the real growth opportunities with them hyper scaler that they've kind of moved into being more enterprise view of things, kind of moving away from just an individual bill perspective, enterprise problems. You're seeing that more and more. I think vendors and customers need to choose companies that meet them where they are that enable their decisions. Don't prescribe there. >>Okay, go ahead. >>Yes, Sorry. Yeah. I also wanted to add that I would recommend people to look at open source based solutions because that will prevent them to be in a difficult situation, potentially in the three years from now. So there are open source solutions that can do that on book. A viable, sustainable, healthy, open source solutions that are not just one vendor but multi vendor as well, because that leaves those open options open for you in the future as well. So if you need to move for another vendor or if you need to implement with an additional technology, you've made a new investment or you go to a new public clouds. If you based Duke Tracy's on open source, you have a little chance but later left >>I think that's a great point. Dr. T and I would you know, glom onto that by saying customers need to bring a new perspective on how they adjudicate these solutions, like it's really important to look at the health of the open source community. Just because it's open source doesn't mean that there's a secret army of gnomes that, you know in the middle of the night going fixed box, like there needs to be a healthy community around that. And that is not just individual contributors. That is also what are the companies that are invested in this, where they dedicating resources like That's another level. So what level of sophistication that a lot of customers need to bring into their own vendor selection? >>Excellent. Uh, you know, speaking about communities in open source. Want to make sure you have time share a little bit about the AI platform discussed in your >>Yeah, it's very, very interesting. And something I'm super excited about it, Sousa. And it's kind of this this, uh, we're starting to see ai done in these really interesting problems to solve and like, I'll just give you one example is that we're working with um uh, Formula One team around using AI to help them actually manage in car mechanics and actually manage some of the things that they're doing to get super high performance out of their vehicles. And that is such an interesting problem to solve. And it's such a natural artificial intelligence problem that even when you're talking about cars instead of servers or you're talking about race tracks, you know instead of data centers, you still got a lot of the same problems. And so you need an easy to use AI stack. You need it to be high performance. You needed to be real time. You need to be able to decisions made really quickly, easy, the same kinds of problems. But we're starting to see them in all these really interesting wheels in areas, which is one of the coolest things that I've seen in my career. Especially is in terms of I T. Is that I t is really everywhere. It's not. Just grab your sweater and go to the data center because it's 43 degrees in there. You know, it's also getting on the racetrack. It's also go to the airfield. It's also go to the grocery store and look at some of the problems being being being addressed himself there. And that is super fascinating. One of the things that I'm super excited up in our industry in total. >>Alright, well, really good to discussion here, Daniel. Dr B. Thank you so much for sharing everything from your keynote and been a pleasure washing. >>Thank you. >>Alright, Back with lots more coverage from Susan Con Digital 20. I'm stew minimum. And as always, Thank you for watching. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> From around the globe its theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course this year the event is virtual. We're bringing all the people on theCUBE from where they are and really happy to bring back to the program, one of our CUBE alumni, Paul Cormier, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Of course the keynote and you and I spoke ahead of the show. Paul great to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> My pleasure, always great to see you Stu. My pleasure. >> All right, so Paul lots have changed since last time we got together for summit. One things stayed the same though. So, you know, the big theme, I heard in your keynote, you talked about open hybrid cloud of course. We've been talking about cloud for years when you ran the product theme, you know, making Red Hat go everywhere is something that we've watched, you know, that move. Is anything different when you're talking to customers, when you're talking to your, the product themes, you think about the times were in, why is open hybrid cloud not a buzzword but hugely important in the times were facing? >> Because the big premise to open hybrid cloud is that customers, cloud has become part of people's infrastructure. I've seen very few if any true enterprise customers that are moving everything, every app to one cloud. And so I think what people really realized once they started implementing clouds, part of their infrastructure was that you going to always have applications that are running bare metal. Some are virtual machine maybe on top of VMware it might been a private cloud, and not many people saying you know what the public clouds are all so different from each other I might want to run one application for whatever reason in one in a different one or another I think they started to realize the actual operational cost to that, the security cost of that and even more mobility the development cost of that from the application perspective and now having five silos up there now how that's so costly so now our whole premise since the beginning of open hybrid cloud has been to give you that level playing field to have those things all the same no matter where the application wants whether experimental virtual machine private multiple public cloud and so in the long run as customers start to start to really go to cloud first application development and they can still manage that under one platform in a common way but at the same time managed develop secure it but at the same time they can manage develop and secure their legacy applications that are also on linux as well in the same way so I think in the long run it really brings it together and saves money and efficiency in those areas. >> Yeah it's I always loved I look over time we have certain words that we think we know what they mean and then they mature over time let's just say we'll start with the first piece of what you're talking about open we live through those of us that have been through that the really ascendancy of open-source is in the early days open was free and we joke it was free like puppies >> Yeah. but today open source of course is very prevalent we see it all over the place but give from an open hybrid cloud why open is important today and what customers should think, how do customers think about that today? >> There's probably two most misunderstood things with open so first thing is that open source is a development model, first of all. I always say it's a verb not a noun, I even say well think internally and externally. We're not an open source company, we're an enterprise software company with an open source development model. So you think about that, that's what that's really important. Why is the open source development model so important? It's important because everyone has the same opportunity in terms of the features of within the code everyone has the same opportunity to contribute. The best technology wins that's how it works in the upstream community is it's not a technology driven by one company that may have a one company agenda. It's really a development process that allows the best technology to win and I think that's one of the main things and one of the main reasons why you see all the innovation frankly in the last five years around infrastructure and development, associated pieces and tools around that of being in and around Linux because Linux was available, it was powerful, it was open when people wanted to develop for when people wanted to develop kubernetes for example, they had to make changes to the Linux kernel in order to do that it did work because they could and so those are the things that make it really important as a development model and I think those are the things that get confused a lot. I think the other things that get confuses a lot of people think that, "hey if I have this great technology and I just open-source is that it'll all just work, everyone will come, now that's not the case. The things that really, the projects that really succeed of an open-source perspective are the problems that are common and horizontal across a big group of people so they're trying to solve similar problems and that's one of the things that we found as you go further up the stack the length typically the less community is involved it's the horizontal layers where you need whether you're in banking or retail or telco or whatever they're all the same, those are the pieces where open-source really fits well. >> Alright so the second piece you talk about hybrid I think back to the early days Paul when cloud was first defined and we talked about public and private cloud we had discussions of hybrid cloud and multi clouds and the concern that I have is it was very much an infrastructure discussion and it was pieces and the vision that we always have is, were customers to actually get value is, the total solution needs to be more valuable than the sum of its parts. So it's really about hybrid applications about where my data lives, so do you agree with some of those things I'm saying how does Red Hat look at it and from your team i do get lots of the application and app dev discussion which I always find even more meaningful than arguing over ontologies of how you build your cloud. >> Everything you said is all about the application if you look at just where we started with linux just along what did Linux bring to the enterprise when we first started rally me you and I talked about this earlier that was the thing that really opened things up. The enterprise's started buying Linux they right they started buying Linux for Linux for $29.95 at the book stores but when I first came on board we talked to some of the banking customers in there, they said well we love this technology but every time you guys change a release on my applications breaker when I get new hardware it doesn't work etc. So it's all about the application Linux is better about that all the time from the beginning of time what hybrid it really means here, is that I can run that seamlessly across wherever that footprint is going to live and so I think that's also one of the things that gets confused a bit. When the cloud first started, the cloud vendors were telling people that every application was going to move to one cloud tomorrow right? We knew that was not practical, that's the other thing from open-source developers, we look at a practical perspective, we look back in 2007 I just looked at just to prepare for the note I just put up to the company. Back in 2007 at the summit I talked about any application anywhere anytime. That's really the essence of what hybrid is here, so what we found here is what every application is impractical for every application to move to one cloud and so cloud is powerful but it's become part of people's development and operations and security environment so now as we stitch that in may make that common for those three things for the operation security in development more application development world that's where the power is. So I see the day where application developers and application users won't know or care what platform the back-end day is coming from for whatever applications they're writing, they shouldn't care that should just happen seamlessly under the covers but having said that, that complicates thing and that's why management needs to be retooled with it as well. Sorry on that but I could talk about that for three days right? >> Yeah so as an industry we kind of argue about these and everybody feels that they understand the way the future should look. So Paul for a number of years it was, "we're going to build this stack "and let's have the exact same stack here and there." There were some of the big iron companies that did that a few years ago now you see some of your public cloud partners saying, "we can give you that same experience "that same hardware all the way "down to the chip level things are going to be the same." When I look at software companies, there's two that come to mind to live across dispersed environments. One is very much from a virtualization standpoint they design themselves to live on any hardware out there. Red Hat has a slightly different way of looking at things, so what's your take on kind of the stack and why is hybrid in that hybrid cloud model that you're building probably looks and sounds and feels different then I think almost anybody else out there? >> Well the cloud guys, they all have similar technologies underneath I mean most of it not all of its based on Linux but they're all different I mean remember the UNIX days I'm old enough to remember the UNIX day. That was the goal back then but like each hardware vendor did each cloud vendor is now taking that Linux or the Associated pieces with it and they have to make their changes to adapt to their environment and some of those changes don't allow for applications to be portable outside that environment, that's exactly like the OEM world of the past and so I hope some people hate it when I say this to make this a comparison but I really look at the cloud guys as a mainframe and certainly mainframe as and still does bring a ton of value to certain customer base and so if you're going to keep your application in that one place, a mainframe will all on you mainframe mentality will always stitch it to bet together better but that's not the reality of what customers are trying to do out there. So I really think you have to look at it that way it's not that much different in concept anyways to the OEM days whether from when they started running Linux and the thing that Red Hat's done that some of the others haven't for VMware for example, VMware they have no pieces that touch the application I mean they have some now they had photon, they had some of the other pieces that sort of tried to touch the application but at the end of the day we always concentrated in Linux and especially from a Red Hat perspective of keeping the environment the same, both from an application perspective and from a hardware perspective. Certainly when an application runs in the cloud, we don't have to worry about the hardware anymore but we still have to worry about the application and businesses are all about the application and so we always took that tack from both sides of that. I think that's one of VMware's weaknesses frankly is that applications don't run on hypervisors, they run on operating systems including when I say operating systems I mean containers because that is a Linux operating system. >> Yeah Paul a lot of good points you brought up there and it's interesting the mainframe analogy in the early days of cloud there were some that would throw stones and saying right you're rebuilding the mainframe and you're going to be locked in, this is going to be an environment so I'd love to get your thought you think about what's happening in application development, the rise of is you talked about containers and kubernetes serverless is out there there's that, "we want to enable the application developers but we don't want to get locked into some platform there. Talk about red-hat's role how your products are helping the ship, help customers make sure that they can take advantage of some of these new ways of building, maintaining and changing without being stuck on any specific platform or technology >> Well the first place, I believe I'm sure I will be corrected on this but we really are the only company that I can think of at this moment that is a hundred percent open source. Everything we do when our products go is open source based goes back upstream to the community for everyone to take advantage of so that's the first thing. I mean the second thing we do is one of the big fallacies is, open source has become so popular that people are confusing upstream projects with downstream products and so for us I'll use us as an example, I'll use Linux and I'll use kubernetes as an example, the Linux kernel we all built from the Linux kernel us, Susa, Ubuntu we all build from the Linux kernel but at the end of the day we all make choices when we bring that upstream work down to become a product. In our case we go upstream to rel, we go from fedora to sent us to rel. We all make choices, which file systems were going to package, what development environment we're going to to package, what packages werre gonna package and so when we get down to what's get deployed in the enterprise, those choices in what makes the difference of why by rel is slightly different than SUSE Linux which is slightly different than Canonical's upon - but they're all come from the same heritage, the same as the case with kubernetes is this sort of fallacy that kubernetes is the last time I checked it was 127 different kubernetes vendors out there. They're all just going to magically work together yes they all come from the same place but we have to touch the users face, we have to touch the kernel and so there how do you line that up in the life cycle of what the customers get is going to be different. We might be able to take different pieces from different from those 127, make it work at one point but the first time any of us makes a change, it's not coordinated with the other side, it's probably going to break. Anyone our life cycles go out 10 plus years and so engineering that altogether is something that makes it all work together as you upgrade whether it be hardware or your applications and so some people confuse that with not being old till 100 percent open. When we find a bug in rel, rel that's been out there for five years maybe we give that fix back to the upstream community that's open it's out there and so I think that's the part that this doesn't become so accepted now and so much part of the mainstream now that we very much confused projects with products and so that's one of the biggest confusion points out there. >> Yeah really good points there Paul. So when I think about some of the things we've heard over the years is in the original days it was, "Oh well public hug Paul? I'm not going to need rel anymore they've got Linux then kubernetes has come along and Red Hat's had a really strong position but you look at it and you say, "Okay well if I'm most customers, "if I'm doing Amazon, "if I'm doing Google, "if I'm doing Microsoft, "I'm probably going to end up using some of their native services that they've got built-in. Talk about how the role of Red Hat kind of continues to change and you live in this multi cloud environment and i think it's kind of that intersection that you were talking about, open and compatibility as opposed to. You're not saying that Red Hat's going to conquer the world and take down all the other options >> Well cloud providers bring a ton of value. I mean the users have to be smart on how and when they use that value. If you truly are going to be a hundred percent of your applications in one public cloud, then you probably will get the best solution from that one public cloud. Serverless is a great example if you're an Amazon and you spin up via services serverless that container that gets spun up is never going to run outside that Club, if that's okay with you that's okay with you. (Voice scrambles) The we've gone about this is as I said to give you that seamless environment all the way across. If you want to run just containers, (voice scrambles) on one particular cloud vendor and you want it under their kubernetes and it's never going to run in any other place, that's okay too but if you're going to have an environment with applications that are in multiple cloud vendors infrastructure you're even on your own, you're now going to have to spin up these different silos of that technology even though the technology as the same heritage. So that's a huge operational and development cost as you grow bigger and able to order to do that and so our set a strategy is very simple, it's give the developers operations and security people that common environment to work across and over time (voice scrambles) they shouldn't care where the services are coming from. It should just all work and that's why you seen things like automation being so important now. I mean our nation is our biggest growing business with ansible right now and part of the reason is as people spread out to a container based environment applications that may now spread across those different footprints maybe you want to have your front (voice scrambles) we have one of the rel customers in Europe that has the front facing customer side of their ticket, their ticketing system up in the public cloud and they've got the backend financial transaction database pieces that click credit cards behind their firewall, that's really one application spread across containers, if you have do you want to have to manage the front end of that with one kubernetes and the backend of that were the different kubernetes? Probably not and so that's really what we bring to the table as we've really grown in with this new technology. >> Alright, so final question I have for you Paul I'm actually going to get away a little bit from your background on the product piece you have to talk a little bit about just red hat going forward. So you talked about, we know for many years red hat has been much more than the Linux piece you talk about automation I've got some great interviews this week talking about some of the the latest in application development, lots of open source projects and so many open source projects (laughing) nobody can keep them all straight there. So as customers look at strategic partnerships, what is the role of red hat and with now being under IBM Jim white her steps over to become president there Arvind of course had a long relationship and it was the architect behind the Red Hat acquisition what's the same and what's different as we think about Red Hat 2020 under your leadership? >> I think it's a lot of the same I mean I think the the difference becomes in the world we're in right now is sort of how we can help our customers come out of back and back into re-entry right and so how that's going to to be different than the past (voice scrambles) we're working through that with many of our customers and we think we can be a big help here because we run their business and today where they run their business over the platforms on their business and that's not going to go away for them and in fact if anything that's going to get even more critical for them because they've got to get more automation to get just more efficiency out of it so in terms of what we do and as a company that's not going to change at all I mean we've been on this path that we're on for a long time. I stand up in front of our sales kickoffs every year is hearing and virtual as well and I say, "we'll to talk to you about the strategy." Guess what? It hasn't changed much from last year and that's a good thing because these technology rollouts are multi-year rollouts, so we're going to continue on that I mean the other thing too is, our customers are seeing moving many more of their work close to the Linux environment and so I think we can help them expand that as well and I think from an IBM perspective (voice scrambles) one of the big premises here from our perspective is to help us scale because they're in the process of helping their customers move to this next generation architectures and at the same time be able support the current architectures and that's what we do well and so they can just help us get to places that we just wouldn't have had the time and the resources maybe to get there get on our own so we can expand that footprint even more quickly with IBM. So that's the focus right now is to really help our customers move to the next phase of this in terms of re-entry >> Yeah as I've heard you and many other Red Hatters say Red Hat is still Red Hat and definitely it's something that we can see loud and clear at Red Hat summit 2020. Thank you so much Paul. >> Thank you Stu nice to see you again. >> All right lots of coverage from Red Hat summit 2020 be sure to check out the cube net for the whole back catalogue that we have of Paul their customers, there their partners and thank you for so watching the queue [Music]

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's Cuban sites, powered by ET are in this breaking analysis, we want to accomplish three things. First thing I'll do is we'll recap the current spending outlook. Next, we want to share some of the priorities and sentiments and the outlook that we're hearing from leading tech execs that we've been interviewing in the past couple of weeks on the remote cube. And finally, we'll take a look at really what's going on in the market place, a little bit of a look forward and what we expect in the coming weeks and months ahead. Now, as you know, E. T. R was really the first to quantify with real survey data the impact of covert 19 on I t spend. So I just want to review that for a moment. This CTR graphic right here shows that results from more than 1200 CIOs and I T practitioners. That shows that they expect their I t spending how they're they're spending on the change in 2020 now, look at the gray bar shows a very large number of organizations that they're plowing ahead without any change. In overall, I spend about 35% now shown in the green bars before 21% of respondents are actually increase their budgets this year. And the red bars, of course, they show the carnage. Really, 28% of customers are expecting a decrease of more than 10% year on year. Now, as we've reported, the picture would look a lot worse were it not for the work from home infrastructure, offset by E spending on collaboration tools and related networking security. VPN, VD I interest infrastructure, etcetera. Now remember each year launched this survey on March 11th and ran it through early April. So it caught the change in sentiment literally in real time on a daily basis. And that's what I'm showing here in this graphic. What it does is it overlays key events that occurred during that time frame and what E. T. R did was they modeled and rear end the data excluding the responses prior to each event. So, of course, the forecast got progressively worse over time. But as you can see on the Purple Line. There was a little bit of an uptick in sentiment from the stimulus package, and it looked like, you know, there's another. It looks like there's another economic cash injection coming soon. Now, as we've reported, the card forecast calls for around 4% decline in I t spend from 2020. That's down from plus 4% prior to Corona virus. It's ER has now entered its self imposed quiet period for two weeks. But what we're doing here is showing some of the sectors that we're watching closely for big changes. We're gonna drill into these over the next several weeks. Now, of course, is we've reported we're seeing a substantial cut in I t spend across the board. Capex will be down. We would expect sectors like I t consulting and outsourcing to be way, way down as organizations put a lot of projects on the back burner. But there are bright spots is shown here in the green. One that we really haven't highlighted to date is cloud really haven't dug into that and also data center related services around Cloud Cloud, we think, is definitely going to remain strong and these related services to get connect clouds via Coehlo services and really reducing latency across clouds and on Prem, we think will remain strong. Now I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the learnings and takeaways from our conversations with CSOs over the past couple of weeks. One of the great things about the Cube is we get to build relationships with many, many people. Over the past 10 years, I've probably personally interviewed close to 5000 people, so we've reached out to a number of those execs over the last couple of weeks to really try and understand how they're managing through this cove in 19 Crisis. So let me summarize just some of the things that we heard. And then I'll let the execs speak to you directly first, of course, like tech execs, are there half full people perpetual optimist, if you will. It was interesting to hear how many of the people that I spoke with, that they actually had early visibility on this crisis. Why? Because a lot of our operations, we're actually in China and other parts of Asia, so they saw this coming to an extent, and they saw it coming to the U. S. And so you know, there were somewhat ready and you're here. They all had on air of confidence about their long term viability and putting their put their employees ahead of profits. But the same time, once they see that their employees are okay, they want to get them focused and productive. Now what they've also done is they've increased the cadence and the frequency of their communications. Yeah, and most, if not all, are trying to get back with a free no strings attached software and other similar programs. But the bottom line is, they really don't know what's coming. They don't know when this thing will end. They don't know what a recovery really is gonna look like when people are going to feel safe traveling again what the overall economic impact is gonna be. So I think it's best summarized to say they're hoping for the best, but planning for the worst. But let's listen to this highlight clip that we put together of five execs that I talked to along with John Furrier Melissa DiDonato of Susa. Frank Sluman, who had snowflake and he's formerly the chairman and CEO of service. Now Jeremy Burton is the CEO of a company called Observe. He used to be the CMO of Dell and EMC. Before that, brand products Sanjay Poonam as the CEO of VM Ware and ST ST Vossen heads up Cisco's collaboration business. Roll the clip. >>What keeps me up at night now and how I wake up every morning is wondering about the health of my employees, that a couple of employees, one that was quite ill in Italy. We were phoning him and calling and emailing him from his hospital bed. And that's what's really keeping me going. What's inspiring me to leave this incredible company is the people and the culture that they built that I'm honoring and taking forward as part of the open source value system. My first movers, Let's not overreact. Take a deep breath. Let's really examine what we know. Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's not try to project things that were not capable of projecting death hard because, you know, we tend to have sort of levels off certainty about what's gonna happen in the next week in the next month, and so on. All of a sudden that's out of the window creates enormous anxiety with people. So, in other words, you've got a sort of a reset to Okay, what do we know? What can we do? What we control, Um, and and not let our minds sort of, you know, go out of control. So I talk to are people time of maintain a sense of normalcy focused on the work. Stay in the state in the moment. And ah, I don't turn the news feed off. Right, Because the hysteria you get through that through the media really not helpful. Just haven't been through, you know, a couple of recessions where, you know, we all went through 9 11 You know, the world just turn around and you come out the other side. And so the key thing is, you said it very much is a cliche, but you gotta live in the moment. What can I do right now? What can I affect right now? How can I make sure that you know what I'm working on is a value for when we come out the other side. And when you know more code balls come along. I think you'd better reason about that with the best information you have at the time. I always tell people the profits of VM Ware wheat. If you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if you take a picture of that first, we will be fine. You know this to show fast, but if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit in a little mini games. We're gonna so, customers, How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this pool, and as a result they have to, you know, either order devices, but the laptop screens things were the kinds to allow work for your environment to be as close to productive as they're working today. I do see some, some things coming. Problem right? Do I expect the volumes off collaboration to go down? You know, it's never going to go back to the same level. The world as we know it is going to change forever. We are going to have a post code area, and that's going to be changed for the better. There's a number of employees who have been skeptical, reticent, working from home were suddenly going to say just work from home. Thing is not so bad after all. >>So you can hear from the execs who all either currently or one point of lead large companies in large teams. They're pretty optimistic now. The other thing that's Lukman told me, by the way, is he approves investments in engineering with no qualms because that's the future of the company. But he's much more circumspect with regard to go to market investments because he wants to see a high probability of yield from the sales teams before making investments there. I also want to share some perspectives that I've learned from small early stage companies, and we've all seen the Sequoia Black Swan memo and you might remember there onerous rest in peace, good times the alert that they put out in 2008. It basically they're essentially advising companies to stop spending on non essential items. By the way, another slew of society also somewhat scoffed at this advice, and he told me on the Cube, you should always stop spending money on non essential items. At any rate, I've talked to a number of early stage investors and portfolio companies, and I'll share a little bit of their play Bach playbook that they're using during this crisis, and it might have some value to the cut, cut cut narrative that you're hearing out there. I think the summary for these early stage startups is first focus on those customers that got you to where you are today. In other words, don't lose sight of your core. The second thing is, try to hone your go to market and align it with current conditions. In other words, paint a picture of the ideal customer and the value proposition that you deliver specifically in the context of the current market. The third thing is, they're updating their forecast more frequently and running sensitivity analysis much more often so that they can better predict outcomes. I e. Reset. You're likely best case and worst case models. The third is essentially reset your near term and midterm plans and those goals and re balance your expense portfolio to reflect these new targets. And this is important by the way, to communicate to your investors. When I've seen is those companies with annual recurring revenue there actually in pretty good shape, believe it or not, in almost all cases, I've seen targets lowered. But there are some examples of startups that are actually increasing their outlook. Think, Zoom, even those who is not a startup anymore. But generally I've seen resets of between 5 to 10% downward, which you know what often is in pretty much in line with the board level goals. And I've seen more drastic reductions as well of up to 50% now. So we've heard some pretty good stories from larger tech companies and some of these VC funded startups. Now I want to talk about small business broadly and what we're hearing from small business owners and also the banks that serve them. Look, I'm not going to sugar coat this many small businesses, as you well know, in deep trouble. They're gonna go out of business. They're laying off people on. There are a number of unemployed the aid package that the government's putting forth the small businesses. It's not working its way through the banking system. Not nearly fast enough, despite the Treasury secretaries efforts, The bottom line is banks don't want to make these loans to small businesses. Right now, there's too much that they don't understand. They're making no money on these loans they're being overwhelmed with. Volume will give you some examples. Bank of America, when the small business payroll program first hit signal that would Onley help companies with both ah banking relationship and an existing lending relationship with the bank UPS is another example said it was only gonna directly help companies with over 500 employees. And for small businesses, it was outsourcing that relationship to another firm, which, of course, meant you had to go through a new rectal exam, if you will, with that new firm. In a way, you can't blame the banks. They're being asked to execute on these programs without clear guidance on how they're supposed to enforce guidelines. And what happens if they make a mistake? Is the federal government gonna pull their guaranteed backing? What are those guidelines? They seem to be changing all the time. And what's the banks, liability and authority to enforce them? Why don't I spend time talking about this? Well, nearly half of US employees work for small businesses, and nearly 17 million workers as of this date have filed for unemployment, and I'll say the banks got bailed out in the financial crisis of 2008 and they need to step up, period, and the government needs to help them, all right. The other buzz kill data that I want to bring up is our national debt. Now many have invoked that there's no such thing as a free lunch, including the famous Milton Friedman, the Economist who I'm gonna credit. Others have said it, but I'll give it to him. Why? Because he espoused controlling the money supply and letting the market's fix themselves bailouts. The banks, airlines, Boeing, automakers, etcetera, those air antithetical to his underlying philosophy. Currently, the U. S national debt is $24 trillion. That's $194,000. Protects player Americans. Personal debt is now 20 trillion. Our unfunded liabilities, like Social Security, Medicare, etcetera now stands at a whopping 139 trillion. And that equates to about 422,000 per citizen. Think about this. The average liquid savings for US family is 15 K, and the U. S debt is now 111% of GDP. So we've been applying Kenzie and Economics for a while now. I'm gonna say it seems to have been working. Think about the predictions of inflation after the 8 4000 and nine crisis. They proved to be wrong. But my concern is I don't see how we grow our way out of this debt, and I worry about that. I've worried about this for a long time, but look, we're knee deep into it and it looks like there's no turning back so well, I'll try to keep my rhetoric to a minimum and stay positive here because I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. We're starting to see some some good opportunities emerging here just in terms of flattening the curve and the like. One of the things that pretty positive about is there gonna be some permanent changes from Cove it. It's kind of ironic that this thing hit as we're entering a new decade decade and as I said before, I expect digital transformations to be accelerated because of this crisis and the many companies that have talked digital from the corner office. But I haven't necessarily really walked the walk, I think will now I think is going to be more cloud more subscription less wasted labor, more automation, more work from home unless big physical events, at least in the next couple of years. So that's kind of the new expectation. As always, we're going to continue to report from our studios in Palo Alto and Boston, and we really welcome and appreciate your feedback. Remember, these segments are all available as podcasts, and we're publishing regularly on silicon angle dot com and on wiki bond dot com. Check out ctr dot plus for all the spending action, and you can feel free to comment on my LinkedIn post or DME at development or email me at David Volante Wiki. Sorry, David Vellante is silicon angle dot com. This is Dave Volante for the Cube Insights powered by CTR. Thanks for watching everyone. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Jay Jamison, he is the Vice President for Strategy Software Defined and Cloud Division at HPE. Thanks so much for joining us Jay. >> Oh thanks for having me. >> So I was just in your keynote session and you talked about making hybrid IT simpler. You talked about the imperative that you heard from customers to bring solutions not silos. Can you tell our viewers a little bit about the specific feedback you were hearing from customers that really made you want to tighten your focus? >> Yeah, I think that, so, first off thanks for having me, and I would say that, absolutely, customers have been very clear at the excitement and the opportunity that they see ahead of them in terms of digital transformation and moving to cloud and taking advantage of all these new capabilities and technologies that seem to be showing up all the time. Whether it's containers, whether it's Kubernetes, whether it's internet of things, all that stuff's super exciting, but at the same time customers are saying, "You know, look, I've got thousands of applications "in a traditional estate, or a virtualized estate "that aren't going to be moving to anything "like a cloud any time soon. "And what I need is a way to start thinking about "how do I manage that whole estate "so that I can get my existing footprint optimized, "I can keep that running smoothly, "make sure it's secure, make sure it's reliable, "make sure it's low cost? "While I want to continue to reduce budget "where possible there and I want to start spinning up "more of my new efforts and more of my new investment "onto these new things so that I can be more responsive "to the business that I'm trying to run. "I can get new products and services out to my customers, "I can engage partners and my existing customer base "in ways that they want to be engaged. "I can enter new businesses." And so that challenge of how do I manage that hybrid estate, whether it's a mix of on-prem or off-prem, whether it's a mix of traditional and virtualized applications and workloads with new cloud native or containerized, or even server-less now, those kinds of things, that is really what I see as the problem of hybrid IT today. And our customers tell us that, "Geez, it's complicated "and getting more so each and every day." And that presents a tremendous opportunity for HPE, and partners like Red Hat, to be able to come forward and say, "Look, we can start helping you with solutions "that start bringing together a comprehensive approach "to trying to solve for making that entire estate simpler, "make it more solution oriented, "and less a set of different silos and people "that are all kind of sort of stuck "in whatever technology stack they might be running with." >> Jay, very interesting point. One of the messages we heard from Red Hat is that application spectrum you talked about. I've got most enterprises hundreds if not thousands of applications. They have the new ones that they're modernizing and building but even the old ones we need to at least re-platform them. The term, we used to call it lift and shift, re-platform seems to be the cool new way to kind of talk about it. But, you know, really modernizing the platform that I'm on, being more software driven, being ready to take that, if I'm breaking it down, and componentizing, containerizing it, starting to build micro services, but how are you working with Red Hat? How does HPE cloud offerings and infrastructure pieces playing in that re-platforming and then moving up the spectrum? >> Yeah, so I think really across the board, I think there are a couple of pieces. I think first of all you're absolutely right that customers will say, "Look, I have "an existing estate of applications and workloads "that I absolutely have to use." So for example I often think about if you think about a mobile application that you might use a lot from a mainstream customer. Like think of your, like getting your flight reservation on your mobile phone. Of course there are parts of that mobile application that are going to be very modern. Like I can order an Uber from the mobile app that I use on my airline often, and that's, of course, very modern, I'm using APIs, I'm using all this nice stuff to plug in what Uber offers that airline vendor to be able to say, "You can have that transaction "flow through a partner flow." But things like what time's the flight taking off, whether it's delayed, those are existing systems that aren't newfangled if you will. And so what customers are telling me is, "Look, I've got a corpus of data, "a corpus of application logic "that I absolutely need to be able to access "and use and deliver in new ways." And so in many senses I think that resonates very strongly, this notion of, re-platforming it's going on and it's a reality of, again, how do I make this mix of data application tools that may exist, and the desires I have to do new stuff. How do I bring it together in a way that lands effectively for a customer so that they have a delightful experience? Now what we're doing with Red Hat I think is really exciting in terms of providing opportunities for, in manners, where together we're sort of taking the best of both worlds. So a great example that I talked about in my keynote is saying, "Look, we're trying to take", we're working very closely with Red Hat, and specifically their Ansible team, to say, "Look, what customers, what users of Ansible love "is building playbooks that enable them "to automate infrastructure using Ansible playbooks", that's what's it all about. And what Ansible has been great with those playbooks is setting up and running and automating virtual machines, well what we're doing, because HPE tends to have infrastructure and great infrastructure management tools that say, "Look, down at the hardware level "we want to make it easier and more fungible "for IT shops to be able "to manage that physical infrastructure." And so what we've done is we've partnered up with Ansible to say, "Look, we want your users of Ansible "to just have their playbooks and we will "connect our OneView APIs", which is our infrastructure management software that sits on top of hardware. Say, "It connects, and so when your users "build an Ansible playbook that wants "to change how the infrastructure works "we'll take care of it all in OneView. "It's not something that your users have "to change or learn anything new "it's just all of a sudden Ansible gets more powerful "because it's connecting to HPE hardware and providing "a richer more flexible infrastructure experience." And so that's some of the stuff that we're doing now to make our hardware more flexible and more modern in the context of an Ansible developer, or Ansible user, but over time that's going to get even better. So the stuff, the things that we're doing with Synergy, which is our new brand that is focused on building hardware infrastructure that has composability, which basically says, "Look". It looks like hardware device but from an operators point of view it's very fungible, you can refactor and make your blend of compute, or storage, or networking, kind of shift on the fly. So a very cloud-like experience with on-premises infrastructure. And what we're doing is we want to work with great technologies that are very cloud-centric such as OpenShift from Red Hat to say, "Look, we want to be able to enable customers "to using APIs spin up bear metal instances of OpenShift." Very powerful in terms of time to value message for a cloud native customer that says, "Look, I need to run cloud native applications, "I want to have containers but I want to do it on-premise" This solution will be something that we think is a really powerful message for, particularly our Red Hat OpenShift style customer looking to build applications. >> Jay, and I'm familiar with the Synergy platform and composable infrastructure, like the ideas, you can break that down into smaller components. What we hear all the time is, "I need to build distributed architectures", and, as they talked in the keynote, predicting and forecasting where that's going to go is tough. So big challenge customers always have is like, "I buy these boxes and three years "into it I'm only using 40% of it." The utilization inside of data centers is horrible. Even with server virtualization it helped a little bit but not as much as what you see server founders in clouds and the like. So where are we with the rollout with Synergy? Do you have any proof points of customers that are saying, "Oh, I'm getting better utilization, "my OP-X is much better"? >> Yeah, what I would say is, so first of all I would strongly agree with you in the sense that if you talk to most mainstream enterprise customers today about their data center utilization rates it's often very poor. And I think one of the big draws that customers have when they look at public cloud opportunities is they'll say, "Well a nice thing about a public cloud is "I feel as though I'm getting much higher utilization rates "because of the way the payment structures work and so on." Now that may not always be true, you'll have, at times people will say, "Well these things are sitting dormant." But that's the instinct, right? >> We had server sprawl, we have VM sprawl, and now we have cloud sprawl. >> Now you have cloud sprawl, exactly right. >> And server less will fix it all too right? >> Exactly right, but you absolutely have the challenge of under-utilized data centers. And so it's imperative for HPE, and I think really the industry, to say, "Look, the solutions that we're putting forward, "whenever we talk about hybrid cloud solutions, "or hybrid IT solutions, or private cloud solutions or whatever to me it comes down to look, am I able to show you in concrete terms how am I increasing the utilization of your data center and how am I helping you lower your costs? And Synergy will, over time, become a great solution and platform in that manner because, for a couple of reasons. One, you've described, the fungibility and the composability of resources makes that something that is very much simpler from a technology standpoint. But then at the same time when you couple it with pay as you go style business models, that HPE makes available to its customers through our financial services, you start to then say, "Look, you're not "just sort of writing us a big check in CAPEX "and waiting three years and then being disappointed." "What you're doing is you're going to start getting the notion "that says, "Look this is going to show up, "you'll have a small amount of POD, "you're paying as you use." And we're able to then work together to forecast when will capacity requirements get to a place where you absolutely need to add more capability and refresh that hardware, or extend that hardware, excuse me. On the customer adoption, it's a new platform, and it's just coming out and we're getting great early adoption, and I think particularly from users that were in the beta. We had very satisfied beta users and we're starting to see, I think, really strong early adoption of the product. We actually had someone at our most recent Discover talk where I was talking with them later and they were, I think it was Hudson Alpha, which is a biotech researching style institute that often tries many of our things. And what they were saying that I thought was really interesting point which I'd not heard of in the context of, "Hey, what does composability do and how does "this drive up utilization rates and many of these things?" One of the things that he was saying that I thought was really interesting is he was starting to use Synergy to deliver what he called spot instant style on-premise infrastructure where someone could run a workload for a period of time and then if someone else needed the infrastructure more badly and he had a way to sort of basically just blast away the old thing and put in the new thing there. And he said, "This is great because during the day "there's a certain set of workloads we have to do. "At night there are a different set of workloads "I want to do and Synergy gives me the capability "to do all of that very simply." And so I think that those kinds of capabilities, while still early, will be very powerful value propositions for customers that are looking to solve the problem you're describing of, "How do I get out of a data center "that's under 20% utilized? "I need to get more efficiency here in order "to lower the cost and be responsive "to what my customers need." >> Jay before you were at HPE you worked as a venture capitalist at Blue Run Ventures, in particular looking at opportunities in mobile and consumer internet enterprise software. If you could put on your investor hat here and talk a little bit about the cloud market and the cloud industry, what excites you and what gives you pause in terms of where you see the market heading and where companies are putting their money? >> Oh that's a really good question. I think that, well I would say that putting an investor hat on, I think that particularly in the enterprise space, I think it's a really exciting time, particularly for, and not to be super self serving for what HPE is doing, but I think there is a set of problems that are out there that are big and broad where there will be large companies that get created. One area that we're very interested in at HPE that I think is an area of investor interest, whether it's HPE making the investment or whether it's venture capitalists or what have you. It's really in the notion of what I describe as hybrid management. And what that basically means is, "Look, I'm a user that's going to have some VMware. "I'm going to have some cloud stuff running on AWS, "I'm going to have a desire to use Kubernetes, "and containers and so on." "Help me get one pane of glass that gives "me a way to think about seeing "those different applications, understanding how they're running. "I want one way to do things like firmware updates "for the stuff that needs firmware updates. "I want one way to do application firewalls, "I want one way to do this." And I think that's going to be a very interesting and sticky market to go off an win. So if I were in the investment space that would be an area that I would be looking at very deeply. Another area that I think is going to be really interesting and important, we talk a lot about AI and machine learning in the context of everything in the world of enterprise, seems to have this label of, "Hey, we're using AI and machine learning." But I think what you really have to get back to is what about artificial intelligence and machine learning is actually going to help you solve a problem? How is it going to make your business actually better? And I think that often we're, I think right now at a place where we're a little bit too over our skis in terms of saying, "Look, these are really interesting technologies, "AI's going to do everything and drive out cars "and basically make us little house pets in the corners "'cause they're doing so much in our lives." But I think that there tends to be, one customer was saying to me, "You know what's really interesting is "dozens of startups will come and tell me "about how AI's going to solve "a hundred problems I didn't know I have. "What I'd really like someone to come "and talk to me about is about, "I want them to talk to me about "one of the problems I know I have. "'Cause I've got a hundred problems "I know I've got that I want solutions to." And so I think a big opportunity is really to try and figure out how do these new technologies particularly in that space and around big data and so on, how do those become things that are really truly impactful to making a mainstream business that may have a hybrid estate, how does it make them more effective? And that can have an impact in terms of how to make their IT ops more efficient, how to predict outages, how to be more secure, all that sort of stuff, all the way to "How do I do a better job delighting my customers "and predicting where the next new markets are going to be?" So those are some of the areas that I'd be most interested in as an investor and really as an operator and a strategist at HPE. >> And yet you remain a little skeptical of what you're hearing about the AI and machine learning in terms of where it really truly is at right now and the opportunities that? >> Yeah, what I would says is, I think it's if it's, the technology's really exciting and developing very very quickly. That I have no question about. What I often have questions about and I hear customers questioning is is this a technology in search of a solution or is it just kind of, we're saying, "Hey this is a really cool new thing "that it can go solve everything "but I haven't thought specifically about how "to actually solve this specific problem "that exists at hand." And that's the challenge. It's ultimately, I think of it, to dig in a little deeper, it's really a product management question or problem of "Hey, do I really understand what problem "my customer's trying to solve "and am I using this tactic to do a great job?" As a quick example machine learning, those kinds of things are great for what computers do well. One thing a computer does really well is the same repetitive task thousands and thousands of times. So things like email marketing automation, or thinking about how you use a business development manager to reach, do outbound selling. That you can have a computer do a lot that imitates a human being to say, "Hey I'm going to send you an email "and try and sell you something "and get you interested in a call." I don't need to have a human being do a lot of that stuff. That to me is really straight down the fairway, really clear business problem that AI and machine learning can do a great job, bots, all that sort of stuff, can do a great job starting to have an impact on. But to think it's just going to do everything out of the box is something that you have to think about. Okay where does this tool and technology really provide the value that customers are going to see. >> Jay. We've had HPE on theCUBE lots of time. You were at Discover in London, so I think we're pretty close to where you cloud strategy is but I look at next week's Open Stack Summit, some in the industry was like, "Oh, HPE pulled out completely of Open Stack." You've got HPE Discover coming up in Vegas, soon after that, and we'll have theCUBE there also. I know John and Dave are really looking forward to it. Give our audience a little bit of an update as to where HPE is and isn't when it comes to Open Stack, specifically and just kind of cloud positioning in general. >> Yeah, right, so what I would say is I think that it's a really good question because I think there's been a lot of transition and I think that customers are still, and the market, are still trying to figure out, "Okay, what and where does, is HPE playing?" And I think that what I was talking about today in the keynote and what I think represents where we're going and what we are doing is we're really focused in on this notion of saying, "Look we want to build a set of solutions that make a customer's hybrid estate simpler" and that hybrid estate, as I describe it, cuts across proprietary virtualization technologies like VMware of like Hyper view with Microsoft, it's going to cut across openstack, it's going to cut across doctor, it's going to cut across public clouds, et cetera. And I would say that where HPE is most focused, short of, when we look at how do we help customers get better leverage and value across that whole mix of estate, what we would talk about is, we think we're moving a little bit more up stack into this sort of notion of saying we want to invest and be really great at managing across that estate, so when I was talking about areas that I'd be interested in as an adventure investor, you know, it wouldn't surprise you that HPE were really, we talked a little bit about this concept of new stack and it really is this notion of saying, we want to be great at managing a hybrid estate across public and private, across proprietary and open source. So what that generally means, what that means then, as it pertains to, okay, what are we doing with openstack what are we doing with respect to cloud founder in this case or redhat, open ship, it means we're a lot more partner centric, because our assertion is that we believe the customers love a mix of, it's not going to be an all openstack world within a data center, we think it's going to be a mix openstack's going to be part of the estate, we also think doctor is going to be part of the estate, we think VMware is going to be part of the estate, we think that's where things are going, and so if you've seen us do in terms of the work we're doing with, whether it's red hat, at some levels, whether it's SUSA, whether it's even VMware, whether it's Microsoft, whether it's doctor, we've done, worked in partnership with all of them, and I think you'll see that partner centric approach continue. We certainly are interested in helping support customers that are existing and we'll move forward with respect to openstack with cloud founder in terms of what we're doing there, but I think that, increasingly over time, there's going to be a deep alliance on partners as we look at those infrastructures, service paz layers, because we look at that and say, there's a tremendous amount of world class talent, that's off building off those distributions in the openstack communities and other big opensource communities and those areas where we can most likely partner and have those take advantage of things like our infrastructure management layer of one view, can be very well leveraged within our new stack product and project that we're working on and so on, so that's really where we're heading and how we're approaching it. >> Jay Jameson, thank you so much for joining us, it's been great. >> It's been a pleasure thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman and we will return with more of theCUBE after this.