>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2018. (upbeat music) Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of VMworld 2018, I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. Hey Dave! >> Hey Lisa, how's it going? >> Good, day two. >> Good to see you back here again. >> Exactly! >> Bouncin' between the sets. >> I am. >> 94 guests, it's good. >> In three days, yeah. We've learned a lot already and we're nearing the end of day two. Excited to welcome two new guys to theCUBE, we've got Colin Durocher, Project Manager from Dell EMC, and Sandro Bercelli, Global Product Manager at Telefonica. Gentlemen, it's nice to have you here. >> Great to be here, first time on theCUBE. >> So first time on theCUBE, 20th anniversary of VMware, lots to celebrate, lots going on. From an announcement perspective, momentum perspective, Colin, let's start with you. What are some of the market trends, the customer voices that you were hearing regarding data protection and it's criticality in this multi-cloud world, in which all these enterprises now live? >> Sure, I think we have to put it into context with the growth of the cloud. The cloud is growing exponentially and data protection is one of the leading use cases. I think IDC did a survey recently, 58% of people using the cloud are doing data protection in the cloud. Backup and recovery is the number one use case. So that's one trend. Another trend is more specific to VMworld and VMware. Their vCloud provider program is, or the business unit is one of the fastest growing business units at VMware. They're having incredible success built on the back of fantastic products. And so what we've done is, about a year ago actually, at VMworld last year we formed a three-way partnership between Telefonica, VMware and Dell EMC, to provide a turnkey solution for cloud providers to deliver data protection as a service. >> So I wonder if we can talk a little bit about Telefonica and your business and how it's evolved, say, over the last, I don't know, pick a time frame, decade, better part of a decade. How is it evolving and changing? >> It's a long partnership that you have between Dell EMC and Telefonica and VMware. So we start many years ago, launching new versions of it to see 2.0, 3.0, and now moving to 4.0. So was not so easy doing this journey to improve our service catalog to our customers. And right now, with the VDC 4.0 with the new interface of the cloud director 9.x (mumbles) in data protection software of VMC, but increasing a lot the functionalities show our customers, increasing the user experience of our customers. It is our very valuable to our customers in this new approach of the VDC 4.0. >> So if you think about, if you go back to the early days of virtualization, everybody sort of, you know, took 10 servers, and brought them down to one, which is great, because all the compute power was under-utilized. But of course the one job that needed all that compute power was backup. >> [Colin And Sandro] Sure. >> Then you saw data protection change to accommodate that. Okay, and customers re-architected, et cetera. Now we enter the cloud era, we're knee-deep in it. How is data protection changing, whether it's architecturally, or processes to accommodate multi-cloud? Maybe Colin, you can start. >> Well, so I think another trend that we're seeing is the move from managed services to more of a self service delivery. So providers like Telefonica want to enable their tenants to access data protection as a service, and that has certainly some architectural impacts to it. And, you know, I think that's what's really behind this announcement that we're making here at VMworld. >> The most important part you mentioned is talking about the VDC. It's not just infrastructure as a service platform, it's everything as a service platform. So more than this, you're putting to our customers they're developed services, for example, data protection. Data protection is very important. So our idea in the user experience is to change the customer's life easy. So with the new port, self-serve support or for data protection, the customers right now can do everything in the VDC. This was possible with the partnership between VMworld and WMC. Developing together the new integration of a mod integration using the API for the cloud director, for the new version, is very valuable to us. >> So in terms of impact, give us an example, Sandro, of how this three-way partnership that Telefonica has with Dell EMC and VMware, how is it impacting, not just your customers business, but Telefonica's business? How is it enabling your transformation, from a top line perspective? >> Sure. I think that what we are thinking right now, with Dell EMC and VMware, is a model that must be followed by the other manufacturers. Because they're creating the future, if there's integration between data protection software of Dell EMC and VMware, it impacts directly to our customer, because now our oldest versions, the customer needs to require some... For example, historic procedures, you just talk to someone in Telefonica to asking them. So right now, is immediately through the self-service portal. And this is very important to us to increase the user experience and our customer experience, which is very valuable to us. >> So customer experience improves. How have you been able to expand your customer base globally leveraging this partnership. >> For example, VDC and Telefonica talking about our business. We are the most important deployments of VM around the world. We are more than 80 countries around the world, in South America and Europe, running the VDC software. This is very valuable to us because if opening our global catalog and using the VMware data protection software producing the TCO to us and to our customers using for example the data duplication and the new functions in the solution is very good to us and to our customers. >> So vCloud director, maybe we could drill into that a little bit in terms of how it's impacted your business. Talk more about the value that it brings to not just you, but your customers. >> Jesus Christ, it was not so easy during that time, you know, we are using vCloud director since the beginning of our global brothers and global structures, so following, during these years, we have the oldest version, we have a lot of limits in the vCloud directory interface. So right now, using the vCloud director nine in the cloud's extension, the cloud director availability, so this is very valuable to us because the VMware changes a lot, the user exchange interface. The old user interface was very ugly to our customers. So right now, vCloud director 9.1 and 9.x is very good interface. In the same way, improving the user experience in the quality of our services. >> So the business impact is that it's simpler to manage, so saving time so people can... >> Sure. And integration. >> Well, I think you have to think about how do service providers like Telefonica differentiate themselves, right? A cloud provider that only offers infrastructure as a service, they're getting their margins squeezed, right? So they have to bring in these value added services. How do they do that better than the others? They differentiate themselves through a better user experience, which means, you know, the way the user interacts with the product. Also it means, it comes down to the cost, right? So that goes directly to the service provider's bottom line. They're able to pass that on to their customers. Then also, performance and scale. Right, so these are really very, very, important points, and that's what I think our partnership is all about. >> How do you guys go to market? Is it a three way? Two way? What's the go-to-market strategy? >> So, our strategy do not compete for the hyperscale providers. >> Right. >> Our VDC, you have our own services running in our own data centers and combining with our global network infrastructure. We can provide a better service to our customers in local perspective, local billing, local support. In this partnership with Dell EMC, consuming the software and technologies many years ago, so we are evolving our services this way and this is the right thing to do right now, to differentiate us from the hyperscale providers. >> And you were.. I'm sorry, go ahead, Colin. >> Well, I was just going to add to that that in terms of our go-to-market, we've made a very big announcement here at VMworld 2018, which is that VMware, the VCPP business unit is actually selling Dell EMC data protection to their service providers. So this is actually our goal, is to really make it a native feature of vCloud director built right in. >> So the VMware cloud, provider business unit is essentially OEM-ing, reselling, your product... >> Yep. >> Which ultimately makes it into Telefonica. >> Sure. And the way that they're doing that, is actually really interesting because it adds value for us in the sense that they allow service providers to pay by the drip. So the way that we sell it is very different than other routes to market that we have and something that I think is of a lot of value to service providers like Telefonica. >> So it's paid by the drip, by that you mean it's a monthly service? >> It's a monthly per-protected VM, very simple, very simple business model. They pay a certain number of cloud provider points for one offering, a different amount for the other offering, and it's paid in arrears on a monthly basis based on what they've consumed. >> And I can cancel any time, it's not like I got to buy three years in advance, or? >> No, absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> So we've been hearing a lot, we hear this a lot, "better together," right, David? At every event and every aspect of life, there's a lot of things that are better together. What, I'm curious, Colin, from your perspective, Dell EMC, VMware, lots of change in the last few years... >> Absolutely. >> How is this, you know, we talked about value streams that go to market, how are you seeing your customers embracing and feeling what Dell EMC and VMware are doing as really better together? How do you simplify the complexities that all these customers are living in with this partnership? >> So, I can say that over the course of history we've had a lot of co-engineering partnerships. Right, between Dell EMC and VMware. I mean, I could probably name five or six of them, and there's a number of them happening right now. This partnership, this aspect of it, is a little bit different because there's a sales and marketing aspect to it, so that's taking the partnership to the next level. Never before has VMware sold Dell EMC product. Right, so that's.... >> Pretty groundbreaking. >> Yeah. This is the next step in better together. For our customers, I mean, there's been an incredible response. We had service provider round tables on Sunday. Lot of excitement about this and actually, I heard two service providers have actually decided to go with this, based on the fact that we have this partnership. So, that's amazing for us. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. >> And then in terms of the evolution of the partnership of the technology, what's the customer feedback loop, if you will, how are they helping to influence the direction the technology goes. >> I think that evolving the catalog and making the customer's life easy and providing the new functionalities, the new features, in the easiest mold, is very valuable to our customers. It's more than providing the (mumbles) in platform service. For more added value of service to the customers, the (mumbles) services, the multi-cloud environments. So our goal is to put all together, providing the hybrid cloud ship, multi-cloud solutions to our customers, is valuable, just as our customers asking to us and claiming to us today. Around the world. >> Well you mentioned your presence in 80 countries? >> Our virtual data centers are present in 80 countries, serving the Americas and Europe. >> Was this possible before the VMware, Dell EMC, Telefonica? >> No, no, we are evolving together. It was not built easy before. Not possible to doing alone before. >> So a lot of growth, what's next? Where do you go from there? You got 80! >> (laughs) >> Where do you go from there? >> I believe that our strategy should evolve in the cataloging freezing the partnership with Dell EMC and VMware, and increasing the... Putting together this new ecosystem and the integration between vCloud director API, ecologic stations in the protection software. I think that is the way, this is the goal, this is our... The processes that are moving now should do... Manufactures are the big parts of our ecostystem is the VDC 4.0. >> So you got a couple of breakout sessions tomorrow? >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Give us the top three takeaways that the attendees will glean from your session. >> Oh gosh. The attendances? >> The key takeaways. What are they going to learn? >> So I think at least one of the sessions that Sandro's participating in is a data protection session. So it's a general session covering all of our recent announcements, our technology, kind of a thought leadership type of thing, and using Telefonica's experience with the vCloud director extensions as a testimonial, an example, to share with the... >> The validation. >> The validation to share with the other customers. >> Bringing together some of the hot topics at the show, obviously, cloud, data protection, walk around the floor, everybody's talking about data protection. >> That's what it's all about, yeah. >> Great! Congratulations! >> Thank you so much. >> Colin, Sandro, thanks so much for joining Dave and me on theCUBE and sharing with us what you guys are doing with this partnership. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you! >> Thank you so much, thank you. >> Thank you, Dave. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. We are continuing day two of VMworld 2018, I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. Stick around, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Announcer: "theCube's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) (logo whooshing) >> Hey, everyone, welcome back to "theCube's" coverage of day one, MWC23 live from Barcelona, Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. Dave, we've got some great conversations so far This is the biggest, most packed show I've been to in years. About 80,000 people here so far. >> Yeah, down from its peak of 108, but still pretty good. You know, a lot of folks from China come to this show, but with the COVID situation in China, that's impacted the attendance, but still quite amazing. >> Amazing for sure. We're going to be talking about trends and mobility, and all sorts of great things. We have a couple of guests joining us for the first time on "theCUBE." Please welcome Dr. Srinivas Mukkamala or Sri, chief product officer at Ivanti. And Dave Shepherd, VP Ivanti. Guys, welcome to "theCUBE." Great to have you here. >> Thank you. >> So, day one of the conference, Sri, we'll go to you first. Talk about some of the trends that you're seeing in mobility. Obviously, the conference renamed from Mobile World Congress to MWC mobility being part of it, but what are some of the big trends? >> It's interesting, right? I mean, I was catching up with Dave. The first thing is from the keynotes, it took 45 minutes to talk about security. I mean, it's quite interesting when you look at the shore floor. We're talking about Edge, we're talking about 5G, the whole evolution. And there's also the concept of are we going into the Cloud? Are we coming back from the Cloud, back to the Edge? They're really two different things. Edge is all decentralized while you recompute. And one thing I observed here is they're talking about near real-time reality. When you look at automobiles, when you look at medical, when you look at robotics, you can't have things processed in the Cloud. It'll be too late. Because you got to make millisecond-based stations. That's a big trend for me. When I look at staff... Okay, the compute it takes to process in the Cloud versus what needs to happen on-prem, on device, is going to revolutionize the way we think about mobility. >> Revolutionize. David, what are some of the things that you're saying? Do you concur? >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, look, just reading some of the press recently, they're predicting 22 billion IoT devices by 2024. Everything Sri just talked about there. It's growing exponentially. You know, problems we have today are a snapshot. We're probably in the slowest place we are today. Everything's just going to get faster and faster and faster. So it's a, yeah, 100% concur with that. >> You know, Sri, on your point, so Jose Maria Alvarez, the CEO of Telefonica, said there are three pillars of the future of telco, low latency, programmable networks, and Cloud and Edge. So, as to your point, Cloud and low latency haven't gone hand in hand. But the Cloud guys are saying, "All right, we're going to bring the Cloud to the Edge." That's sort of an interesting dynamic. We're going to bypass them. We heard somebody, another speaker say, "You know, Cloud can't do it alone." You know? (chuckles) And so, it's like these worlds need each other in a way, don't they? >> Definitely right. So that's a fantastic way to look at it. The Cloud guys can say, "We're going to come closer to where the computer is." And if you really take a look at it with data localization, where are we going to put the Cloud in, right? I mean, so the data sovereignty becomes a very interesting thing. The localization becomes a very interesting thing. And when it comes to security, it gets completely different. I mean, we talked about moving everything to a centralized compute, really have massive processing, and give you the addition back wherever you are. Whereas when you're localized, I have to process everything within the local environment. So there's already a conflict right there. How are we going to address that? >> Yeah. So another statement, I think, it was the CEO of Ericsson, he was kind of talking about how the OTT guys have heard, "We can't let that happen again. And we're going to find new ways to charge for the network." Basically, he's talking about monetizing the API access. But I'm interested in what you're hearing from customers, right? 'Cause our mindset is, what value you're going to give to customers that they're going to pay for, versus, "I got this data I'm going to charge developers for." But what are you hearing from customers? >> It's amazing, Dave, the way you're looking at it, right? So if we take a look at what we were used to perpetual, and we said we're going to move to a subscription, right? I mean, everybody talks about subscription economy. Telcos on the other hand, had subscription economy for a long time, right? They were always based on usage, right? It's a usage economy. But today, we are basically realizing on compute. We haven't even started charging for compute. If you go to AWS, go to Azure, go to GCP, they still don't quite charge you for actual compute, right? It's kind of, they're still leaning on it. So think about API-based, we're going to break the bank. What people don't realize is, we do millions of API calls for any high transaction environment. A consumer can't afford that. What people don't realize is... I don't know how you're going to monetize. Even if you charge a cent a call, that is still going to be hundreds and thousands of dollars a day. And that's where, if you look at what you call low-code no-code motion? You see a plethora of companies being built on that. They're saying, "Hey, you don't have to write code. I'll give you authentication as a service. What that means is, Every single time you call my API to authenticate a user, I'm going to charge you." So just imagine how many times we authenticate on a single day. You're talking a few dozen times. And if I have to pay every single time I authenticate... >> Real friction in the marketplace, David. >> Yeah, and I tell you what. It's a big topic, right? And it's a topic that we haven't had to deal with at the Edge before, and we hear it probably daily really, complexity. The complexity's growing all the time. That means that we need to start to get insight, visibility. You know? I think a part of... Something that came out of the EU actually this week, stated, you know, there's a cyber attack every 11 seconds. That's fast, right? 2016, that was 40 seconds. So actually that speed I talked about earlier, everything Sri says that's coming down to the Edge, we want to embrace the Edge and that is the way we're going to move. But customers are mindful of the complexity that's involved in that. And that, you know, lens thought to how are we going to deal with those complexities. >> I was just going to ask you, how are you planning to deal with those complexities? You mentioned one ransomware attack every 11 seconds. That's down considerably from just a few years ago. Ransomware is a household word. It's no longer, "Are we going to get attacked?" It's when, it's to what extent, it's how much. So how is Ivanti helping customers deal with some of the complexities, and the changes in the security landscape? >> Yeah. Shall I start on that one first? Yeah, look, we want to give all our customers and perspective customers full visibility of their environment. You know, devices that are attached to the environment. Where are they? What are they doing? How often are we going to look for those devices? Not only when we find those devices. What applications are they running? Are those applications secure? How are we going to manage those applications moving forward? And overall, wrapping it round, what kind of service are we going to do? What processes are we going to put in place? To Sri's point, the low-code no-code angle. How do we build processes that protect our organization? But probably a point where I'll pass to Sri in a moment is how do we add a level of automation to that? How do we add a level of intelligence that doesn't always require a human to be fixing or remediating a problem? >> To Sri, you mentioned... You're right, the keynote, it took 45 minutes before it even mentioned security. And I suppose it's because they've historically, had this hardened stack. Everything's controlled and it's a safe environment. And now that's changing. So what would you add? >> You know, great point, right? If you look at telcos, they're used to a perimeter-based network. >> Yep. >> I mean, that's what we are. Boxed, we knew our perimeter. Today, our perimeter is extended to our home, everywhere work, right? >> Yeah- >> We don't have a definition of a perimeter. Your browser is the new perimeter. And a good example, segueing to that, what we have seen is horizontal-based security. What we haven't seen is verticalization, especially in mobile. We haven't seen vertical mobile security solutions, right? Yes, you hear a little bit about automobile, you hear a little bit about healthcare, but what we haven't seen is, what about food sector? What about the frontline in food? What about supply chain? What security are we really doing? And I'll give you a simple example. You brought up ransomware. Last night, Dole was attacked with ransomware. We have seen the beef producer colonial pipeline. Now, if we have seen agritech being hit, what does it mean? We are starting to hit humanity. If you can't really put food on the table, you're starting to really disrupt the supply chain, right? In a massive way. So you got to start thinking about that. Why is Dole related to mobility? Think about that. They don't carry service and computers. What they carry is mobile devices. that's where the supply chain works. And then that's where you have to start thinking about it. And the evolution of ransomware, rather than a single-trick pony, you see them using multiple vulnerabilities. And Pegasus was the best example. Spyware across all politicians, right? And CEOs. It is six or seven vulnerabilities put together that actually was constructed to do an attack. >> Yeah. How does AI kind of change this? Where does it fit in? The attackers are going to have AI, but we could use AI to defend. But attackers are always ahead, right? (chuckles) So what's your... Do you have a point of view on that? 'Cause everybody's crazy about ChatGPT, right? The banks have all banned it. Certain universities in the United States have banned it. Another one's forcing his students to learn how to use ChatGPT to prompt it. It's all over the place. You have a point of view on this? >> So definitely, Dave, it's a great point. First, we all have to have our own generative AI. I mean, I look at it as your digital assistant, right? So when you had calculators, you can't function without a calculator today. It's not harmful. It's not going to take you away from doing multiplication, right? So we'll still teach arithmetic in school. You'll still use your calculator. So to me, AI will become an integral part. That's one beautiful thing I've seen on the short floor. Every little thing there is a AI-based solution I've seen, right? So ChatGPT is well played from multiple perspective. I would rather up level it and say, generated AI is the way to go. So there are three things. There is human intense triaging, where humans keep doing easy work, minimal work. You can use ML and AI to do that. There is human designing that you need to do. That's when you need to use AI. >> But, I would say this, in the Enterprise, that the quality of the AI has to be better than what we've seen so far out of ChatGPT, even though I love ChatGPT, it's amazing. But what we've seen from being... It's got to be... Is it true that... Don't you think it has to be cleaner, more accurate? It can't make up stuff. If I'm going to be automating my network with AI. >> I'll answer that question. It comes down to three fundamentals. The reason ChatGPT is giving addresses, it's not trained on the latest data. So for any AI and ML method, you got to look at three things. It's your data, it's your domain expertise, who is training it, and your data model. In ChatGPT, it's older data, it's biased to the people that trained it, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> And then, the data model is it's going to spit out what it's trained on. That's a precursor of any GPT, right? It's pre-trained transformation. >> So if we narrow that, right? Train it better for the specific use case, that AI has huge potential. >> You flip that to what the Enterprise customers talk about to us is, insight is invaluable. >> Right. >> But then too much insight too quickly all the time means we go remediation crazy. So we haven't got enough humans to be fixing all the problems. Sri's point with the ChatGPT data, some of that data we are looking at there could be old. So we're trying to triage something that may still be an issue, but it might have been superseded by something else as well. So that's my overriding when I'm talking to customers and we talk ChatGPT, it's in the news all the time. It's very topical. >> It's fun. >> It is. I even said to my 13-year-old son yesterday, your homework's out a date. 'Cause I knew he was doing some summary stuff on ChatGPT. So a little wind up that's out of date just to make that emphasis around the model. And that's where we, with our Neurons platform Ivanti, that's what we want to give the customers all the time, which is the real-time snapshot. So they can make a priority or a decision based on what that information is telling them. >> And we've kind of learned, I think, over the last couple of years, that access to real-time data, real-time AI, is no longer nice to have. It's a massive competitive advantage for organizations, but it's going to enable the on-demand, everything that we expect in our consumer lives, in our business lives. This is going to be table stakes for organizations, I think, in every industry going forward. >> Yeah. >> But assumes 5G, right? Is going to actually happen and somebody's going to- >> Going to absolutely. >> Somebody's going to make some money off it at some point. When are they going to make money off of 5G, do you think? (all laughing) >> No. And then you asked a very good question, Dave. I want to answer that question. Will bad guys use AI? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Offensive AI is a very big thing. We have to pay attention to it. It's got to create an asymmetric war. If you look at the president of the United States, he said, "If somebody's going to attack us on cyber, we are going to retaliate." For the first time, US is willing to launch a cyber war. What that really means is, we're going to use AI for offensive reasons as well. And we as citizens have to pay attention to that. And that's where I'm worried about, right? AI bias, whether it's data, or domain expertise, or algorithmic bias, is going to be a big thing. And offensive AI is something everybody have to pay attention to. >> To your point, Sri, earlier about critical infrastructure getting hacked, I had this conversation with Dr. Robert Gates several years ago, and I said, "Yeah, but don't we have the best offensive, you know, technology in cyber?" And he said, "Yeah, but we got the most to lose too." >> Yeah, 100%. >> We're the wealthiest nation of the United States. The wealthiest is. So you got to be careful. But to your point, the president of the United States saying, "We'll retaliate," right? Not necessarily start the war, but who started it? >> But that's the thing, right? Attribution is the hardest part. And then you talked about a very interesting thing, rich nations, right? There's emerging nations. There are nations left behind. One thing I've seen on the show floor today is, digital inequality. Digital poverty is a big thing. While we have this amazing technology, 90% of the world doesn't have access to this. >> Right. >> What we have done is we have created an inequality across, and especially in mobility and cyber, if this technology doesn't reach to the last mile, which is emerging nations, I think we are creating a crater back again and putting societies a few miles back. >> And at much greater risk. >> 100%, right? >> Yeah. >> Because those are the guys. In cyber, all you need is a laptop and a brain to attack. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> If I don't have it, that's where the civil war is going to start again. >> Yeah. What are some of the things in our last minute or so, guys, David, we'll start with you and then Sri go to you, that you're looking forward to at this MWC? The theme is velocity. We're talking about so much transformation and evolution in the telecom industry. What are you excited to hear and learn in the next couple of days? >> Just getting a complete picture. One is actually being out after the last couple of years, so you learn a lot. But just walking around and seeing, from my perspective, some vendor names that I haven't seen before, but seeing what they're doing and bringing to the market. But I think goes back to the point made earlier around APIs and integration. Everybody's talking about how can we kind of do this together in a way. So integrations, those smart things is what I'm kind of looking for as well, and how we plug into that as well. >> Excellent, and Sri? >> So for us, there is a lot to offer, right? So while I'm enjoying what I'm seeing here, I'm seeing at an opportunity. We have an amazing portfolio of what we can do. We are into mobile device management. We are the last (indistinct) company. When people find problems, somebody has to go remediators. We are the world's largest patch management company. And what I'm finding is, yes, all these people are embedding software, pumping it like nobody's business. As you find one ability, somebody has to go fix them, and we want to be the (indistinct) company. We had the last smile. And I find an amazing opportunity, not only we can do device management, but do mobile threat defense and give them a risk prioritization on what needs to be remediated, and manage all that in our ITSM. So I look at this as an amazing, amazing opportunity. >> Right. >> Which is exponential than what I've seen before. >> So last question then. Speaking of opportunities, Sri, for you, what are some of the things that customers can go to? Obviously, you guys talk to customers all the time. In terms of learning what Ivanti is going to enable them to do, to take advantage of these opportunities. Any webinars, any events coming up that we want people to know about? >> Absolutely, ivanti.com is the best place to go because we keep everything there. Of course, "theCUBE" interview. >> Of course. >> You should definitely watch that. (all laughing) No. So we have quite a few industry events we do. And especially there's a lot of learning. And we just raised the ransomware report that actually talks about ransomware from a global index perspective. So one thing what we have done is, rather than just looking at vulnerabilities, we showed them the weaknesses that led to the vulnerabilities, and how attackers are using them. And we even talked about DHS, how behind they are in disseminating the information and how it's actually being used by nation states. >> Wow. >> And we did cover mobility as a part of that as well. So there's a quite a bit we did in our report and it actually came out very well. >> I have to check that out. Ransomware is such a fascinating topic. Guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program today, sharing what's going on at Ivanti, the changes that you're seeing in mobile, and the opportunities that are there for your customers. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you >> Thank you. >> Yes. Thanks, guys. >> Thanks, guys. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE" live from MWC23 in Barcelona. As you know, "theCUBE" is the leader in live tech coverage. Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. (gentle upbeat music)

>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome to the Fira in Barcelona, everybody. This is theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23, day one of that coverage. We have four days of wall-to-wall action going on, the place is going crazy. I'm here with Dave Nicholson, Lisa Martin is also in the house. Today's ecosystem day, and we're really excited to have Manish Singh who's the CTO of the Telecom Systems Business unit at Dell Technologies. He's joined by Doug Wolf who's the head of strategy for the Telecom Systems Business unit at Dell. Gents, welcome. What a show. I mean really the first major MWC or used to be Mobile World Congress since you guys have launched your telecom business, you kind of did that sort of in the Covid transition, but really exciting, obviously a huge, huge venue to match the huge market. So Manish, how did you guys get into this? What did you see? What was the overall thinking to get Dell into this business? >> Manish: Yeah, well, I mean just to start with you know, if you look at the telecom ecosystem today, the service providers in particular, they are looking for network transformation, driving more disaggregation into their network so that they can get better utilization of the infrastructure, but then also get more agility, more cloud native characteristics onto their, for their networks in particular. And then further on, it's important for them to really start to accelerate the pace of innovation on the networks itself, to start more supply chain diversity, that's one of the challenges that they've been having. And so there've been all these market forces that have been really getting these service providers to really start to transform the way they have built the infrastructure in the past, which was legacy monolithic architectures to more cloud native disaggregated. And from a Dell perspective, you know, that really gives us the permission to play, to really, given all the expertise on the work we have done in the IT with all the IT transformations to leverage all that expertise and bring that to the service providers and really help them in accelerating their network transformation. So that's where the journey started. We've been obviously ever since then working on expanding the product portfolio on our compute platforms to bring Teleco great compute platforms with more capabilities than we can talk about that. But then working with partners and building the ecosystem to again create this disaggregated and open ecosystem that will be more cloud native and really meet the objective that the service providers are after. >> Dave Vellante: Great, thank you. So, Doug the strategy obviously is to attack this market, as Manish said, from an open standpoint, that's sort of new territory. It's like a little bit like the wild, wild west. So maybe you could double click on what Manish was saying from a, from a strategy standpoint, yes, the Telecos need to be more flexible, they need to be more open, but they also need this reliability piece. So talk about that from a strategy standpoint of what you guys saw. >> Doug: Yeah, absolutely. As Manish mentioned, you know, Dell getting into open systems isn't something new. You know, Dell has been kind of playing in that world for years and years, but the opportunity in Telecom that came was opening of the RAN, the core network, the edge, all of these with 5G really created a wide opening for us. So we started developing products and solutions, you know, built our first Telecom grade servers for open RAN over the last year, we'll talk about those at the show. But you know, as, as Manish mentioned, an open ecosystem is new to Telecom. I've been in the Telecom business along with Manish for, you know, 25 plus years and this is a new thing that they're embarking on. So started with virtualization about five, six years ago, and now moving to cloud native architectures on the core, suddenly there's this need to have multiple parties partner really well, share specifications, and put that together for an operator to consume. And I think that's just the start of really where all the challenges are and the opportunities that we see. >> Where are we in this transition cycle? When the average consumer hears 5G, feels like it's been around for a long time because it was hyped beforehand. >> Doug: Yeah. >> If you're talking about moving to an open infrastructure model from a proprietary closed model, when is the opportunity for Dell to become part of that? Is it, are there specific sites that have already transitioned to 5G, therefore they've either made the decision to be open or not? Or are there places where the 5G transition has taken place, and they might then make a transition to open brand with 5G? Where, where are we in that cycle? What does the opportunity look like? >> I'll kind of take it from the typology of the operator, and I'm sure Manish will build on this, but if I look back on the core, started to get virtualized you know, back around 2015-16 with some of the lead operators like AT&T et cetera. So Dell has been partnering with those operators for some years. So it really, it's happening on the core, but it's moving with 5G to more of a cloud-like architecture, number one. And number two, they're going beyond just virtualizing the network. You know, they previously had used OpenStack and most of them are migrating to more of a cloud native architecture that Manish mentioned. And that is a bit different in terms of there's more software vendors in that ecosystem because the software is disaggregated also. So Dell's been playing in the core for a number of years, but we brought out new solutions we've announced at the show for the core. And the parts that are really starting that transition of maybe where the core was back in 2015 is on the RAN and on the edge in particular. >> Because NFV kind of predated the ascendancy of cloud. >> Exactly, yeah. >> Right, so it really didn't have the impact that people had hoped. And there's some, when you look back, 'cause it's not same wine, new bottle as the open systems movement, there are a lot of similarities but you know, you mentioned cloud, and cloud native, you really didn't have, back in the nineties, true engineered systems. You didn't really have AI that, you know, to speak of at the sort of volume of the data that we have. So Manish, from a CTO's perspective, how are you attacking some of those differences in bringing that to market? >> Manish: Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on some very important points there. So first of all, the duck's point, a lot of this transformation started in the core, right? And as the technology evolution progress, the opportunities opened up. It has now come into the edge and the radio access network as well, in particular with open RAN. And so when we talk about the disaggregation of the infrastructure from the software itself and an open ecosystem, this now starts to create the opportunity to accelerate innovation. And I really want to pick up on the point that you'd said on AI, for example. AI and machine learning bring a whole new set of capabilities and opportunities for these service providers to drive better optimization, better performance, better sustainability and energy efficiency on their infrastructure, on and on and on. But to really tap into these technologies, they really need to open that up to third parties implementation solutions that are coming up. And again, the end objective remains to accelerate that innovation. Now that said, all these things need to be brought together, right? And delivered and deployed in the network without any degradation in the KPIs and actually improving the performance on different vectors, right? So this is what the current state of play is. And with this aggregation I'm definitely a believer that all these new technologies, including AI, machine learning, and there's a whole area, host area of problems that can be solved and attacked and are actually getting attacked by applying AI and machine learning onto these networks. >> Open obviously is good. Nobody's ever going to, you know, argue that open is a bad thing. It's like democracy is a good thing, right? At least amongst us. And so, but, the RAN, the open RAN, has to be as reliable and performant, right, as these, closed networks. Or maybe not, maybe it doesn't have to be identical. Just has to be close enough in order for that tipping point to occur. Is that a fair summarization? What are you guys hearing from carriers in terms of their willingness to sort of put their toe in the water and, and what could we expect in terms of the maturity model of, of open RAN and adoption? >> Right, so I mean I think on, on performance that, that's a tough one. I think the operators will demand performance and you've seen experiments, you've really seen more of the Greenfield operators kind of launch. >> Okay. >> Doug: Open RAN or vRAN type solutions. >> So they're going to disrupt. >> Doug: Yeah, they're going to disrupt. >> Yeah. >> Doug: And there's flexibility in an open RAN architecture also for 5G that they, that they're interested in and I think the Brownfield operators are too, but let's say maybe the Greenfield jump first in terms of doing that from a mass deployment perspective. But I still think that it's going to be critical to meet very similar SLAs and end user performance. And, you know, I think that's where, you know, maturity of that model is what's required. I think Brownfield operators are conservative in terms of, you know, going with something they know, but the opportunities and the benefits of that architecture and building new flexible, potentially cost advantaged over time solutions, that's what the, where the real interest is going forward. >> And new services that you can introduce much more quickly. You know, the interesting thing about Dell to me, you don't compete with the carriers, the public cloud vendors though, the carriers are concerned about them sort of doing an end run on them. So you provide a potential partnership for the carriers that's non-threatening, right? 'Cause you're, you're an arms dealer, you're selling hardware and software, right? But, but how do you see that? Because we heard in the keynote today, one of the Teleco, I think it was the chairman of Telefonica said, you know, cloud guys can't do this alone. You know, they need, you know, this massive, you know, build out. And so, what do you think about that in terms of your relationship with the carriers not being threatening? I mean versus say potentially the cloud guys, who are also your partners, I understand, it's a really interesting dynamic, isn't it? >> Manish: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I mean, the way I look at it, the carriers actually need someone like Dell who really come in who can bring in the right capabilities, the right infrastructure, but also bring in the ecosystem together and deliver a performance solution that they can deploy and that they can trust, number one. Number two, to your point on cloud, I mean, from a Dell perspective, you know, we announced our Dell Telecom Multicloud Foundation and as part of that last year in September, we announced what we call is the Dell Telecom Infrastructure Blocks. The first one we announced with Wind River, and this is, think of it as the, you know, hardware and the cashier all pre-integrated with lot of automation around it, factory integrated, you know, delivered to customers in an integrated model with all the licenses, everything. And so it starts to solve the day zero, day one, day two integration deployment and then lifecycle management for them. So to broaden the discussion, our view is it's a multicloud world, the future is multicloud where you can have different clouds which can be optimized for different workloads. So for example, while our work with Wind River initially was very focused on virtualization of the radio access network, we just announced our infrastructure block with Red Hat, which is very much targeted and optimized for core network and edge, right? So, you know, there are different workflows which will require different capabilities also. And so, you know, again, we are bringing those things to these service providers to again, bring those cloud characteristics and cloud native architecture for their network. >> And It's going to be hybrid, to your point. >> David N.: And you, just hit on something, you said cloud characteristics. >> Yeah. >> If you look at this through the lens of kind of the general world of IT, sometimes when people hear the word cloud, they immediately leap to the idea that it's a hyperscale cloud provider. In this scenario we're talking about radio towers that have intelligence living on them and physically at the base. And so the cloud characteristics that you're delivering might be living physically in these remote locations all over the place, is that correct? >> Yeah, I mean that, that's true. That will definitely happen over time. But I think, I think we've seen the hyperscalers enter, you know, public cloud providers, enter at the edge and they're dabbling maybe with private, but I think the public RAN is another further challenge. I think that maybe a little bit down the road for them. So I think that is a different characteristic that you're talking about managing the macro RAN environment. >> Manish: If I may just add one more perspective of this cloud, and I mean, again, the hyperscale cloud, right? I mean that world's been great when you can centralize a lot of compute capability and you can then start to, you know, do workload aggregation and use the infrastructure more efficient. When it comes to Telecom, it is inherently it distributed architecture where you have access, you talked about radio access, your port, and it is inherently distributed because it has to provide the coverage and capacity. And so, you know, it does require different kind of capabilities when you're going out and about, and this is where I was talking about things like, you know, we just talked, we just have been working on our bare metal orchestration, right? This is what we are bringing is a capability where you can actually have distributed infrastructure, you can deploy, you can actually manage, do lifecycle management, in a distributed multicloud form. So it does require, you know, different set of capabilities that need to be enabled. >> Some, when talking about cloud, would argue that it's always been information technology, it always will be information technology, and especially as what we might refer to as public cloud or hyperscale cloud providers, are delivering things essentially on premises. It's like, well, is that cloud? Because it feels like some of those players are going to be delivering physical infrastructure outside of their own data centers in order to address this. It seems the nature, the nature of the beast is that some of these things need to be distributed. So it seems perfectly situated for Dell. That's why you guys are both at Dell now and not working for other Telecom places, right? >> Exactly. Exactly, yes. >> It's definitely an exciting space. It's transformed, the networks are under transformation and I do think that Dell's very well positioned to, to really help the customers, the service providers in accelerating their transformation journey with an open ecosystem. >> Dave V.: You've got the brand, and the breadth, and the resources to actually attract an ecosystem. But I wonder if you could sort of take us through your strategy of ecosystem, the challenges that you've seen in developing that ecosystem and what the vision is that ultimately, what's the outcome going to be of that open ecosystem? >> Yeah, I can start. So maybe just to give you the big picture, right? I mean the big picture, is disaggregation with performance, right, TCO models to the service providers, right? And it starts at the infrastructure layer, builds on bringing these cloud capabilities, the cast layer, right? Bringing the right accelerators. All of this requires to pull the ecosystem. So give you an example on the infrastructure in a Teleco grade servers like XR8000 with Sapphire, the new intel processors that we've just announced, and an extended array of servers. These are Teleco grade, short depth, et cetera. You know, the Teleco great characteristic. Working with the partners like Marvel for bringing in the accelerators in there, that's important to again, drive the performance and optimize for the TCO. Working then with partners like Wind River, Red Hat, et cetera, to bring in the cast capabilities so you can start to see how this ecosystem starts to build up. And then very recently we announced our private 5G solution with AirSpan and Expeto on the core site. So bringing those workloads together. Similarly, we have an open RAN solution we announce with Fujitsu. So it's, it's open, it's disaggregated, but bringing all these together. And one of the last things I would say is, you know, to make all this happen and make all of these, we've also been putting together our OTEL, our open Telecom ecosystem lab, which is very much geared, really gives this open ecosystem a playground where they can come in and do all that heavy lifting, which is anyways required, to do the integration, optimization, and board. So put all these capabilities in place, but the end goal, the end vision again, is that cloud native disaggregated infrastructure that starts to innovate at the speed of software and scales at the speed of cloud. >> And this is different than the nineties. You didn't have something like OTEL back then, you know, you didn't have the developer ecosystem that you have today because on top of everything that you just said, Manish, are new workloads and new applications that are going to be developed. Doug, anything you'd add to what Manish said? >> Doug: Yeah, I mean, as Manish said, I think adding to the infrastructure layers, which are, you know, critical for us to, to help integrate, right? Because we kind of took a vertical Teleco stack and we've disaggregated it, and it's gotten a little bit more complex. So our Solutions Dell Technology infrastructure block, and our lab infrastructure with OTEL, helps put those pieces together. But without the software players in this, you know, that's what we really do, I think in OTEL. And that's just starting to grow. So integrating with those software providers with that integration is something that the operators need. So we fill a gap there in terms of either providing engineered solutions so they can readily build on or actually bringing in that software provider. And I think that's what you're going to see more from us going forward is just extending that ecosystem even further. More software players effectively. >> In thinking about O-RAN, are they, is it possible to have the low latency, the high performance, the reliability capabilities that carriers are used to and the flexibility? Or can you sort of prioritize one over the other from a go to market and rollout standpoint and optimize one, maybe get a foothold in the market? How do you see that balance? >> Manish: Oh the answer is absolutely yes you can have both We are on that journey, we are on that journey. This is where all these things I was talking about in terms of the right kind of accelerators, right kind of capabilities on the infrastructure, obviously retargeting the software, there are certain changes, et cetera that need to be done on the software itself to make it more cloud native. And then building all the surrounding capabilities around the CICD pipeline and all where it's not just day zero or day one that you're doing the cloud-like lifecycle management of this infrastructure. But the answer to your point, yes, absolutely. It's possible, the technology is there, and the ecosystem is coming together, and that's the direction. Now, are there challenges? Absolutely there are challenges, but directionally that's the direction the industry is moving to. >> Dave V.: I guess my question, Manish, is do they have to go in lockstep? Because I would argue that the public cloud when it first came out wasn't nearly as functional as what I could get from my own data center in terms of recovery, you know, backup and recovery is a perfect example and it took, you know, a decade plus to get there. But it was the flexibility, and the openness, and the developer affinity, the programmability, that attracted people. Do you see O-RAN following a similar path? Or does it, my question is does it have to have that carrier class reliability today? >> David N.: Everything on day one, does it have to have everything on day one? >> Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, like again, the Greenfield operators I think we're, we're willing do a little bit more experimentation. I think the operators, Brownfield operators that have existing, you know, deployments, they're going to want to be closer. But I think there's room for innovation here. And clearly, you know, Manish came from, from Meta and we're, we've been very involved with TIP, we're very involved with the O-RAN alliance, and as Manish mentioned, with all those accelerators that we're working with on our infrastructure, that is a space that we're trying to help move the ball forward. So I think you're seeing deployments from mainstream operators, but it's maybe not in, you know, downtown New York deployment, they're more rural deployments. I think that's getting at, you know, kind of your question is there's maybe a little bit more flexibility there, they get to experiment with the technology and the flexibility and then I think it will start to evolve >> Dave V.: And that's where the disruption's going to come from, I think. >> David N.: Well, where was the first place you could get reliable 4K streaming of video content? It wasn't ABC, CBS, NBC. It was YouTube. >> Right. >> So is it possible that when you say Greenfield, are a lot of those going to be what we refer to as private 5G networks where someone may set up a private 5G network that has more functions and capabilities than the public network? >> That's exactly where I was going is that, you know, that that's why you're seeing us getting very active in 5G solutions that Manish mentioned with, you know, Expeto and AirSpan. There's more of those that we haven't publicly announced. So I think you'll be seeing more announcements from us, but that is really, you know, a new opportunity. And there's spectrum there also, right? I mean, there's public and private spectrum. We plan to work directly with the operators and do it in their spectrum when needed. But we also have solutions that will do it, you know, on non-public spectrum. >> So let's close out, oh go ahead. You you have something to add there? >> I'm just going to add one more point to Doug's point, right? Is if you look on the private 5G and the end customer, it's the enterprise, right? And they're, they're not a service provider. They're not a carrier. They're more used to deploying, you know, enterprise infrastructure, maintaining, managing that. So, you know, private 5G, especially with this open ecosystem and with all the open run capabilities, it naturally tends to, you know, blend itself very well to meet those requirements that the enterprise would have. >> And people should not think of private 5G as a sort of a replacement for wifi, right? It's to to deal with those, you know, intense situations that can afford the additional cost, but absolutely require the reliability and the performance and, you know, never go down type of scenario. Is that right? >> Doug: And low latencies usually, the primary characteristics, you know, for things like Industry 4.0 manufacturing requirements, those are tough SLAs. They're just, they're different than the operator SLAs for coverage and, you know, cell performance. They're now, you know, Five9 type characteristics, but on a manufacturing floor. >> That's why we don't use wifi on theCUBE to broadcast, we need a hard line. >> Yeah, but why wouldn't it replace wifi over time? I mean, you know, I still have a home phone number that's hardwired to align, but it goes to a voicemail. We don't even have handset anymore for it, yeah. >> I think, well, unless the cost can come down, but I think that wifi is flexible, it's cheap. It's, it's kind of perfect for that. >> Manish: And it's good technology. >> Dave V.: And it works great. >> David N.: For now, for now. >> Dave V.: But you wouldn't want it in those situations, and you're arguing that maybe. >> I'm saying eventually, what, put a sim in a device, I don't know, you know, but why not? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, and Dell offers, you know, from our laptop, you know, our client side, we do offer wifi, we do offer 4G and 5G solutions. And I think those, you know, it's a volume and scale issue, I think for the cost structure you're talking about. >> Manish: Come to our booth and see the connected laptop. >> Dave V.: Well let's, let's close on that. Why don't you guys talk a little bit about what you're going on at the show, I did go by the booth, you got a whole big lineup of servers. You got some, you know, cool devices going on. So give us the rundown and you know, let's end with the takeaways here. >> The simple rundown, a broad range of new powered servers, broad range addressing core, edge, RAN, optimized for those with all the different kind of acceleration capabilities. You can see that, you can see infrastructure blocks. These are with Wind River, with Red Hat. You can see OTEL, the open telecom ecosystem lab where all that playground, the integration, the real work, the real sausage makings happening. And then you will see some interesting solutions in terms of co-creation that we are doing, right? So you, you will see all of that and not to forget the connected laptops. >> Dave V.: Yeah, yeah, cool. >> Doug: Yeah and, we mentioned it before, but just to add on, I think, you know, for private 5G, you know, we've announced a few offers here at the show with partners. So with Expeto and AirSpan in particular, and I think, you know, I just want to emphasize the partnerships that we're doing. You know, we're doing some, you know, fundamental integration on infrastructure, bare metal and different options for the operators to get engineered systems. But building on that ecosystem is really, the move to cloud native is where Dell is trying to get in front of. And we're offering solutions and a much larger ecosystem to go after it. >> Dave V.: Great. Manish and Doug, thanks for coming on the program. It was great to have you, awesome discussion. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We're seeing the disaggregation of the Teleco network into open ecosystems with integration from companies like Dell and others. Keep it right there for theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back. (upbeat tech music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> While never really meant to be a consumer tech event, the rapid ascendancy of smartphones sucked much of the air out of Mobile World Congress over the years, now MWC. And while the device manufacturers continue to have a major presence at the show, the maturity of intelligent devices, longer life cycles, and the disaggregation of the network stack, have put enterprise technologies front and center in the telco business. Semiconductor manufacturers, network equipment players, infrastructure companies, cloud vendors, software providers, and a spate of startups are eyeing the trillion dollar plus communications industry as one of the next big things to watch this decade. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we bring you part two of our ongoing coverage of MWC '23, with some new data on enterprise players specifically in large telco environments, a brief glimpse at some of the pre-announcement news and corresponding themes ahead of MWC, and some of the key announcement areas we'll be watching at the show on theCUBE. Now, last week we shared some ETR data that showed how traditional enterprise tech players were performing, specifically within the telecoms vertical. Here's a new look at that data from ETR, which isolates the same companies, but cuts the data for what ETR calls large telco. The N in this cut is 196, down from 288 last week when we included all company sizes in the dataset. Now remember the two dimensions here, on the y-axis is net score, or spending momentum, and on the x-axis is pervasiveness in the data set. The table insert in the upper left informs how the dots and companies are plotted, and that red dotted line, the horizontal line at 40%, that indicates a highly elevated net score. Now while the data are not dramatically different in terms of relative positioning, there are a couple of changes at the margin. So just going down the list and focusing on net score. Azure is comparable, but slightly lower in this sector in the large telco than it was overall. Google Cloud comes in at number two, and basically swapped places with AWS, which drops slightly in the large telco relative to overall telco. Snowflake is also slightly down by one percentage point, but maintains its position. Remember Snowflake, overall, its net score is much, much higher when measuring across all verticals. Snowflake comes down in telco, and relative to overall, a little bit down in large telco, but it's making some moves to attack this market that we'll talk about in a moment. Next are Red Hat OpenStack and Databricks. About the same in large tech telco as they were an overall telco. Then there's Dell next that has a big presence at MWC and is getting serious about driving 16G adoption, and new servers, and edge servers, and other partnerships. Cisco and Red Hat OpenShift basically swapped spots when moving from all telco to large telco, as Cisco drops and Red Hat bumps up a bit. And VMware dropped about four percentage points in large telco. Accenture moved up dramatically, about nine percentage points in big telco, large telco relative to all telco. HPE dropped a couple of percentage points. Oracle stayed about the same. And IBM surprisingly dropped by about five points. So look, I understand not a ton of change in terms of spending momentum in the large sector versus telco overall, but some deltas. The bottom line for enterprise players is one, they're just getting started in this new disruption journey that they're on as the stack disaggregates. Two, all these players have experience in delivering horizontal solutions, but now working with partners and identifying big problems to be solved, and three, many of these companies are generally not the fastest moving firms relative to smaller disruptive disruptors. Now, cloud has been an exception in fairness. But the good news for the legacy infrastructure and IT companies is that the telco transformation and the 5G buildout is going to take years. So it's moving at a pace that is very favorable to many of these companies. Okay, so looking at just some of the pre-announcement highlights that have hit the wire this week, I want to give you a glimpse of the diversity of innovation that is occurring in the telecommunication space. You got semiconductor manufacturers, device makers, network equipment players, carriers, cloud vendors, enterprise tech companies, software companies, startups. Now we've included, you'll see in this list, we've included OpeRAN, that logo, because there's so much buzz around the topic and we're going to come back to that. But suffice it to say, there's no way we can cover all the announcements from the 2000 plus exhibitors at the show. So we're going to cherry pick here and make a few call outs. Hewlett Packard Enterprise announced an acquisition of an Italian private cellular network company called AthoNet. Zeus Kerravala wrote about it on SiliconANGLE if you want more details. Now interestingly, HPE has a partnership with Solana, which also does private 5G. But according to Zeus, Solona is more of an out-of-the-box solution, whereas AthoNet is designed for the core and requires more integration. And as you'll see in a moment, there's going to be a lot of talk at the show about private network. There's going to be a lot of news there from other competitors, and we're going to be watching that closely. And while many are concerned about the P5G, private 5G, encroaching on wifi, Kerravala doesn't see it that way. Rather, he feels that these private networks are really designed for more industrial, and you know mission critical environments, like factories, and warehouses that are run by robots, et cetera. 'Cause these can justify the increased expense of private networks. Whereas wifi remains a very low cost and flexible option for, you know, whatever offices and homes. Now, over to Dell. Dell announced its intent to go hard after opening up the telco network with the announcement that in the second half of this year it's going to begin shipping its infrastructure blocks for Red Hat. Remember it's like kind of the converged infrastructure for telco with a more open ecosystem and sort of more flexible, you know, more mature engineered system. Dell has also announced a range of PowerEdge servers for a variety of use cases. A big wide line bringing forth its 16G portfolio and aiming squarely at the telco space. Dell also announced, here we go, a private wireless offering with airspan, and Expedo, and a solution with AthoNet, the company HPE announced it was purchasing. So I guess Dell and HPE are now partnering up in the private wireless space, and yes, hell is freezing over folks. We'll see where that relationship goes in the mid- to long-term. Dell also announced new lab and certification capabilities, which we said last week was going to be critical for the further adoption of open ecosystem technology. So props to Dell for, you know, putting real emphasis and investment in that. AWS also made a number of announcements in this space including private wireless solutions and associated managed services. AWS named Deutsche Telekom, Orange, T-Mobile, Telefonica, and some others as partners. And AWS announced the stepped up partnership, specifically with T-Mobile, to bring AWS services to T-Mobile's network portfolio. Snowflake, back to Snowflake, announced its telecom data cloud. Remember we showed the data earlier, it's Snowflake not as strong in the telco sector, but they're continuing to move toward this go-to market alignment within key industries, realigning their go-to market by vertical. It also announced that AT&T, and a number of other partners, are collaborating to break down data silos specifically in telco. Look, essentially, this is Snowflake taking its core value prop to the telco vertical and forming key partnerships that resonate in the space. So think simplification, breaking down silos, data sharing, eventually data monetization. Samsung previewed its future capability to allow smartphones to access satellite services, something Apple has previously done. AMD, Intel, Marvell, Qualcomm, are all in the act, all the semiconductor players. Qualcomm for example, announced along with Telefonica, and Erickson, a 5G millimeter network that will be showcased in Spain at the event this coming week using Qualcomm Snapdragon chipset platform, based on none other than Arm technology. Of course, Arm we said is going to dominate the edge, and is is clearly doing so. It's got the volume advantage over, you know, traditional Intel, you know, X86 architectures. And it's no surprise that Microsoft is touting its open AI relationship. You're going to hear a lot of AI talk at this conference as is AI is now, you know, is the now topic. All right, we could go on and on and on. There's just so much going on at Mobile World Congress or MWC, that we just wanted to give you a glimpse of some of the highlights that we've been watching. Which brings us to the key topics and issues that we'll be exploring at MWC next week. We touched on some of this last week. A big topic of conversation will of course be, you know, 5G. Is it ever going to become real? Is it, is anybody ever going to make money at 5G? There's so much excitement around and anticipation around 5G. It has not lived up to the hype, but that's because the rollout, as we've previous reported, is going to take years. And part of that rollout is going to rely on the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, as we reported last week and in previous Breaking Analysis episodes. OpenRAN is a big component of that evolution. You know, as our RAN intelligent controllers, RICs, which essentially the brain of OpenRAN, if you will. Now as we build out 5G networks at massive scale and accommodate unprecedented volumes of data and apply compute-hungry AI to all this data, the issue of energy efficiency is going to be front and center. It has to be. Not only is it a, you know, hot political issue, the reality is that improving power efficiency is compulsory or the whole vision of telco's future is going to come crashing down. So chip manufacturers, equipment makers, cloud providers, everybody is going to be doubling down and clicking on this topic. Let's talk about AI. AI as we said, it is the hot topic right now, but it is happening not only in consumer, with things like ChatGPT. And think about the theme of this Breaking Analysis in the enterprise, AI in the enterprise cannot be ChatGPT. It cannot be error prone the way ChatGPT is. It has to be clean, reliable, governed, accurate. It's got to be ethical. It's got to be trusted. Okay, we're going to have Zeus Kerravala on the show next week and definitely want to get his take on private networks and how they're going to impact wifi. You know, will private networks cannibalize wifi? If not, why not? He wrote about this again on SiliconANGLE if you want more details, and we're going to unpack that on theCUBE this week. And finally, as always we'll be following the data flows to understand where and how telcos, cloud players, startups, software companies, disruptors, legacy companies, end customers, how are they going to make money from new data opportunities? 'Cause we often say in theCUBE, don't ever bet against data. All right, that's a wrap for today. Remember theCUBE is going to be on location at MWC 2023 next week. We got a great set. We're in the walkway in between halls four and five, right in Congress Square, stand CS-60. Look for us, we got a full schedule. If you got a great story or you have news, stop by. We're going to try to get you on the program. I'll be there with Lisa Martin, co-hosting, David Nicholson as well, and the entire CUBE crew, so don't forget to come by and see us. I want to thank Alex Myerson, who's on production and manages the podcast, and Ken Schiffman, as well, in our Boston studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE.com. He does some great editing. Thank you. All right, remember all these episodes they are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcasts. I publish each week on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. All the video content is available on demand at theCUBE.net, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch David.Vellante@SiliconANGLE.com or DM me @DVellante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. And please do check out ETR.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Mobile World Congress '23, MWC '23, or next time on Breaking Analysis. (bright music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas for wall-to-wall coverage. It is re:Invent 2022, our 10th year with theCUBE. Dave and I started this journey 10 years ago here at re:Invent. There are two sets, here, a set upstairs. Great content, I'm here with Paul Gillin, my cohost. Paul's out reporting on the floor, doing some interviews. Paul, what do you think so far? It's pretty crazy activity going on here. >> Well, the activity hasn't declined at all. I mean here we are in day three of the show and it's just as busy out there as it was in day one. And there's just an energy here that you can feel, it's palpable. There is a lot of activity around developers, a lot around data. Which actually brings us a good segue into our next guest because one of the leaders in data management in the cloud is MariaDB. And John Bakke is the CRO at MariaDB, and here to talk to us about your cloud version and how open source is going for you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us. >> To get the update on the product, what do you guys do on the relation to AWS? How's that going? Give us a quick update. >> In the relational database? >> No, no. The relationship with AWS >> Oh, with AWS? >> And SkySQL, what's the update? >> There's no relationship that we have that's more important than the AWS relationship. We're building our cloud, our premier cloud service called SkySQL on AWS. And they offer the best in class infrastructure for a SaaS company to build what they're building. And for us, it's a database service, right? And then beyond that, they help you from the business side, right? They try to get you lined up in the marketplace and make it possible for you to work best with customers. And then from a customer perspective, they're super helpful in not only finding prospective customers, but making that customer successful. 'Cause everybody's got a vested interest in the outcome. Right? >> Yeah, a little tongue twister there. Relational data-based relationship. We've got relational databases, we've got unstructured, data is at the center of the value proposition. Swami's keynote today and the Adam CEO's keynote, data and security dominated the keynotes >> John: Yes. >> and the conversations. So, this is real. The customers are really wanting to accelerate the developer experience, >> John: Yep. >> Developer pipe lining, more code faster, more horsepower under the hood. But this data conversation, it just never goes away. The world's keeping on coming around. >> John: It never goes away. I've been in this business for almost 30 years and we're still talking about the same key factors, right? Reliability, availability, performance, security. These things are pervasive in the data management because it's such a critical aspect to success. >> Yeah, in this case of SkySQL, you have both a transactional and an analytical engine in one. >> John: That's correct. >> Right? >> John: Yep. >> And that was a, what has the customer adoption been like of that hybrid, or I guess not a hybrid, but a dual function? >> Yeah. So the thing that makes that important is that instead of having siloed services, you have integrated data services. And a lot of times when you ask a question that's analytical it might depend on a transaction. And so, that makes the entire experience best for the developer, right? So, to take that further, we also, in SkySQL, offer a geospatial offering that integrates with all of that. And then we even take it further than that with distributed database with Xpand or ready to be Xpand. >> A lot of discussion. Geospatial announcement today on stage, just the diversity of data, and your experience in the industry. There's not the one database that rule them all anymore. There's a lot of databases out there. How are customers dealing with, I won't say database for all, 'Cause you need databases. And then you've got real time transactional, you got batch going on, you got streaming data, all kinds of data use cases now, all kind of having to be rolled together. What's your reaction? What's your take on the state of data and databases? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I started in this business, there were four databases, and now there's 400 databases. And the best databases really facilitate great application development. So having as many of those services in real time or in analytics as possible means that you are a database for everyone or for all users, right? And customers don't want to use multiple databases. Sometimes they feel like they're forced to do that, but if you're like MariaDB, then you offer all of those capabilities in an integrated way that makes the developer move faster. >> Amazon made a number of announcements this morning in the data management area, including geospatial support on RDS, I believe. How do you, I guess, coordinate yourself, your sales message with their sales message, given that you are partners, but they are competing with you in some ways? >> Yeah, there's always some cooperatition, I guess, that happens with AWS in the various product silos that they're offering their customers. For us, we're one of thousands of obviously partners that they have. And we're out there trying to do what our customers want, which is to have those services integrated, not glued together with a variety of different integration software. We want it integrated in the service so that it's one data provision, data capability for the application developer. It makes for a better experience for the developer in the end. >> On the customer side, what's the big activity? I mean, you got the on-premises database, you've got the cloud. When should a customer decide, or what's the signals to them that they should either move to the cloud, or change, be distributed? What are some of the forcing functions? What does the mark look like? >> Yeah, I've come a long way on this, but my opinion is that every customer should be in the cloud. And the reason simply is the economies that are involved, the pace of execution, the resilience and dependability of the cloud, Amazon being the leader in that space. So if you were to ask me, right now is the time to be in SkySQL because it's the premier data service in the cloud. So I would take my customer out of their on-prem and put them all in AWS, on SkySQL, if I could. Not everybody's ready for that, but my opinion is that the security is there, the reliability, the privacy, all of the things that maybe are legacy concerns, it's all been proven to be adequate and probably even better because of all of the economies of scale that you get out of being in the cloud just generally. >> Now, MariaDB, you started on-premise though. You still have a significant customer base on-premise. What, if anything are you doing to encourage them to migrate to the cloud? >> Well, so we have hundreds and hundreds of customers as MariaDB, and we weren't the first database company to put their database in the cloud, but watching it unfold helped us realize that we're going to put MariaDB in its best form factor in SkySQL. It's the only place you could get the enterprise version of MariaDB in a cloud service, right? So when we look at our customers on-prem, we're constantly telling them, obviously, that we have a cloud service. When they subscribe, we show them the efficiencies and the economies, and we do get customers that are moving. We had a customer go to Telefonica over in the UK that moved from an on-premise to manage their wifi services across Europe. And they're very happy. They were one of our very first SkySQL customers. And that has routinely proven itself to be a path towards not only a better operation for the customer, they're up more, they have fewer outages because they're not inflicting their own self wounds that they have in their own data center. They're running on world class infrastructure on world class databases. >> What are some of those self wounds? Is it personnel, kind of manual mistakes, just outages, reliability? What's the real cause, and then what's the benefit alternative in the cloud that is outside? >> Yeah. I mean, I think, when you repeat the same database implementation over and over on the infrastructure, it gets tested thousands and thousands of times. Whereas if I'm a database team and I install it once, I've tested it one time, and I can't account for all of the things that might happen in the future. So the benefit of the cloud is that you just get that repeat ability that happens and all of the sort of the kinks and bugs and issues are worked out of the system. And that's why it's just fundamentally better. We get 99.9999% uptime because all of those mistakes have been made, solved, and fixed. >> Fully managed, obviously. >> Yes. Right. >> Huge benefit. >> John: Right. >> And people are moving, it's just a great benefit. >> John: Yeah. >> So I'm a fan obviously. I think it's a great way to go. I got to ask about the security though, because big conversation here is security. What's the security posture? What's the security story to customers with SkySQL and MariaDB? >> Right, right, right. So we've taken the server, which was the initial product that MariaDB was founded upon, right? And we've come a long way over the several years that we've been in business. In SkySQL, we have SOC 2 compliance, for example. So we've gone through commercial certifications to make sure that customers can depend that we are following processes, we have technology in place in order to secure and protect their data. And in that environment, it is repeatable. So every time a customer uses our DBaaS infrastructure, databases a service infrastructure called SkySQL, they're benefiting from all of the testing that's been done. They go there and do that themselves, they would've to go through months and months of processes in order to reach the same level of protection. >> Now MariaDB is distributed by design. Is that right? >> Yes. So we have a distributed database, it's called Xpand, MariaDB Xpand. And it's an option inside of SkySQL. It's the same cost as MariaDB server, but Xpand is distributed. And the easiest way to understand what distributed database is is to understand what it is not first. What it is not is like every other cloud database. So most of the databases strangely in the cloud are not distributed databases. They have one single database node in a cluster that is where all of the changes and rights happen. And that creates a bottleneck in the database. And that's why there's difficulties in scale. AWS actually talked about this in the keynote which is the difficulty around multi writer in the cloud. And that's what Xpand does. And it spreads out the reads and the rights to make it scalable, more performant, and more resilient. One node goes down, still stays up, but you get the benefit of the consistency and the parallelization that happens in Xpand. >> So when would a customer choose Xpand versus SkySQL Vanilla? >> So we have, I would say a lot of times, but the profile of our customers are typically like financial services, trade stores. We have Samsung Cloud, 500,000 transactions per second in an expand cluster where they run sort of their Samsung cloud for their mobile device unit. We have many customers like that where it's a commercial facing website often or a service where the brand depends on uptime. Okay. So if you're in exchange or if you are a mobile device company or an IOT company, you need those databases to be working all the time and scale broadly and have high performance. >> So you have resiliency built in essentially? >> Yes, yeah. And that's the major benefit of it. It hasn't been solved by anybody other than us in the cloud to be quite honest with you. >> That's a differentiator for sure. >> It is a huge differentiator, and there are a lot of interested parties. We're going to see that be the next discussion probably next year when we come back is, what's the state of distributed database? Because it's really become really the tip of the spear with the database industry right now. >> And what's the benefits of that? Just quickly describe why that's important? >> Obviously the performance and the resilience are the two we just talked about, but also the efficiency. So if you have a multi-node cluster of a single master database, that gets replicated four times, five times over, five times the cost. And so we're taking cost out, adding performance in. And so, you're really seeing a revolution there because you're getting a lot more for a lot less. And whenever you do that, you win the game. Right? >> Awesome. Yeah, that's true. And it seems like, okay, that might be more costly but you're not replicating. >> That's right. >> That's the key. >> Replicating just enough to be resilient but not excessively to be overly redundant. Right. >> Yeah. I find that the conversation this year is starting to unpack some of these cloud native embedded capabilities inside AWS. So are you guys doing more around, on the customer side, around marketplace? Are you guys, how do people consume products? >> Yeah. It's really both. So sometimes they come to us from AWS. AWS might say, "Hey, you know what," "we don't really have an answer." And that's specifically true on the expand side. They don't really have that in their list of databases yet. Right. Hopefully, we'll get out in front of them. But they oftentimes come through our front door where they're a MariaDB customer already, right? There's over a hundred thousand production systems with MariaDB in the world, and hundreds of thousands of users of the database. So they know our brand, not quite as well as AWS, but they know our brand... >> You've got a customer base. >> We do. Right. I mean people love MariaDB. They just think it's the database that they use for application development all the time. And when they see us release an offering like Xpand just a few years ago, they're interested, they want to use that. They want to see how that works. And then when they take it into production and it works as advertised, of course, success happens. Right? >> Well great stuff, John. Great to have you on theCUBE. Paul, I guess time we do the Insta challenge here. New format on theCUBE, we usually say at the end, summarize what's most important story for you or show, what's the bumper sticker? We kind of put it around more of an Instagram reel. What's your sizzle reel? What's your thought leadership statement? 30 seconds >> John: Thought leadership. >> John? >> So the thought leadership is really in scaling the cloud to the next generation. We believe MariaDB's Xpand product will be the the technology that fronts the next wave of database solutions in the cloud. And AWS has become instrumental in helping us do that with their infrastructure and all the help that they give us, I think at the end of the day, when the story on Xpand is written, it's going to be a very fun ride over the next few years. >> John, thank you. CRO, chief revenue officer of MariaDB, great to have you on. >> Thank you. >> 34-year veteran or so in databases. (laughs) >> You're putting a lot of age on me. I'm 29. I'm 29 again. (all laugh) >> I just graduated high school and I've been doing this for 10 years. Great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks guys. Yeah. >> Thanks for sharing. >> Appreciate it. >> I'm John Furrier with Paul Gillin here live on the floor, wall-to-wall coverage. We're already into like 70 videos already. Got a whole another day, finish out day three. Keep watching theCUBE, thanks for watching. We'll be right back. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

>>Earlier this week, Oracle announced the new X nine M generation of exit data platforms for its cloud at customer and legacy on prem deployments. And the company made some enhancements to its zero data loss, recovery appliance. CLRA something we've covered quite often since its announcement. We had a video exclusive with one Louisa who was the executive vice president of mission critical database technologies. At Oracle. We did that on the day of the announcement who got his take on it. And I asked Oracle, Hey, can we get some subject matter experts, some technical gurus to dig deeper and get more details on the architecture because we want to better understand some of the performance claims that Oracle is making. And with me today is Susan. Who's the vice president of product management for exit data database machine. Bob tome is the vice president of product management for exit data cloud at customer. And Tim chin is the senior director of product management for DRA folks. Welcome to this power panel and welcome to the cube. >>Thank you, Dave. >>Can we start with you? Um, Juan and I, we talked about the X nine M a that Oracle just launched a couple of days ago. Maybe you could give us a recap, some of the, what do we need to know? The, especially I'm interested in the big numbers once more so we can just understand the claims you're making around this announcement. We can dig into that. >>Absolutely. They've very excited to do that. In a nutshell, we have the world's fastest database machine for both LTP and analytics, and we made that even faster, not just simply faster, but for all LPP we made it 70% faster and we took the oil PPV ops all the way up to 27.6 million read IOPS and mind you, this is being measured at the sequel layer for analytics. We did pretty much the same thing, an 87% increase in analytics. And we broke through that one terabyte per second barrier, absolutely phenomenal stuff. Now, while all those numbers by themselves are fascinating, here's something that's even more fascinating in my mind, 80% of the product development work for extra data, X nine M was done during COVID, which means all of us were remote. And what that meant was extreme levels of teamwork between the development teams, manufacturing teams, procurement teams, software teams, the works. I mean, everybody coming together as one to deliver this product, I think it's kudos to everybody who touched this product in one way or the other extremely proud of it. >>Thank you for making that point. And I'm laughing because it's like you the same bolt of a mission-critical OLT T O LTP performance. You had the world record, and now you're saying, adding on top of that. Um, but, okay. But, so there are customers that still, you know, build the builder and they're trying to build their own exit data. What they do is they buy their own servers and storage and networking components. And I do that when I talk to them, they'll say, look, they want to maintain their independence. They don't want to get locked in Oracle, or maybe they believe it's cheaper. You know, maybe they're sort of focused on the, the, the CapEx the CFO has him in the headlock, or they might, sometimes they talk about, they want a platform that can support, you know, horizontal, uh, apps, maybe not Oracle stuff, or, or maybe they're just trying to preserve their job. I don't know, but why shouldn't these customers roll their own and why can't they get similar results just using standard off the shelf technologies? >>Great question. It's going to require a little involved answer, but let's just look at the statistics to begin with. Oracle's exit data was first productized in Delaware to the market in 2008. And at that point in time itself, we had industry leadership across a number of metrics. Today, we are at the 11th generation of exit data, and we are way far ahead than the competition, like 50 X, faster hundred X faster, right? I mean, we are talking orders of magnitude faster. How did we achieve this? And I think the answer to your question is going to lie in what are we doing at the engineering level to make these magical numbers come to, uh, for right first, it starts with the hardware. Oracle has its own hardware server design team, where we are embedding in capabilities towards increasing performance, reliability, security, and scalability down at the hardware level, the database, which is a user level process talks to the hardware directly. >>The only reason we can do this is because we own the source code for pretty much everything in between, starting with the database, going into the operating system, the hypervisor. And as I, as I just mentioned the hardware, and then we also worked with the former elements on this entire thing, the key to making extra data, the best Oracle database machine lies in that engineering, where we take the operating system, make it fit like tongue and groove into, uh, a bit with the opera, with the hardware, and then do the same with the database. And because we have got this deep insight into what are the workloads that are, that are running at any given point in time on the compute side of extra data, we can then do micromanagement at the software layers of how traffic flows are flowing through the entire system and do things like, you know, prioritize all PP transactions on a very specific, uh, you know, queue on the RDMA. >>We'll converse Ethan at be able to do smart scan, use the compute elements in the storage tier to be able to offload SQL processing. They call them the longer I used formats of data, extend them into flash, just a whole bunch of things that we've been doing over the last 12 years, because we have this deep engineering, you can try to cobble a system together, which sort of looks like an extra data. It's got a network and it's got storage, tiering compute here, but you're not going to be able to achieve anything close to what we are doing. The biggest deal in my mind, apart from the performance and the high availability is the security, because we are testing the stack top to bottom. When you're trying to build your own best of breed kind of stuff. You're not going to be able to do that because it depended on the server that had to do something and HP to do something else or Dell to do something else and a Brocade switch to do something it's not possible. We can do this, we've done it. We've proven it. We've delivered it for over a decade. End of story. For as far as I'm concerned, >>I mean, you know, at this fine, remember when Oracle purchased Sohn and I know a big part of that purchase was to get Java, but I remember saying at the time it was a brilliant acquisition. I was looking at it from a financial standpoint. I think you paid seven and a half billion for it. And it automatically, when you're, when Safra was able to get back to sort of pre acquisition margins, you got the Oracle uplift in terms of revenue multiples. So then that standpoint, it was a no brainer, but the other thing is back in the Unix days, it was like HP. Oracle was the standard. And, and in terms of all the benchmarks and performance, but even then, I'm sure you work closely with HP, but it was like to get the stuff to work together, you know, make sure that it was going to be able to recover according to your standards, but you couldn't actually do that deep engineering that you just described now earlier, Subin you, you, you, you stated that the X sign now in M you get, oh, LTP IO, IOP reads at 27 million IOPS. Uh, you got 19 microseconds latency, so pretty impressive stuff, impressive numbers. And you kind of just went there. Um, but how are you measuring these numbers versus other performance claims from your competitors? What what's, you know, are you, are you stacking the deck? Can you give you share with us there? >>Sure. So Shada incidents, we are mentioning it at the sequel layer. This is not some kind of an ion meter or a micro benchmark. That's looking at just a flash subsystem or just a persistent memory subsystem. This is measured at the compute, not doing an entire set of transactions. And how many times can you finish that? Right? So that's how it's being measured. Now. Most people cannot measure it like that because of the disparity and the number of vendors that are involved in that particular solution, right? You've got servers from vendor a and storage from vendor B, the storage network from vendor C, the operating system from vendor D. How do you tune all of these things on your own? You cannot write. I mean, there's only certain bells and whistles and knobs that are available for you to tune, but so that's how we are measuring the 19 microseconds is at the sequel layer. >>What that means is this a real world customer running a real world. Workload is guaranteed to get that kind of a latency. None of the other suppliers can make that claim. This is the real world capability. Now let's take a look at that 19 microseconds we boast and we say, Hey, we had an order of magnitude two orders of magnitude faster than everybody else. When it comes down to latency. And one things that this is we'll do our magic while it is magical. The magic is really grounded in deep engineering and deep physics and science. The way we implement this is we, first of all, put the persistent memory tier in the storage. And that way it's shared across all of the database instances that are running on the compute tier. Then we have this ultra fast hundred gigabit ethernet RDMA over converged ethernet fabric. >>With this, what we have been able to do is at the hardware level between two network interface guides that are resident on that fabric, we create paths that enable high priority low-latency communication between any two end points on that fabric. And then given the fact that we implemented persistent memory in the storage tier, what that means is with that persistent memory, sitting on the memory bus of the processor in the storage tier, we can perform it remote direct memory access operation from the compute tier to memory address spaces in the persistent memory of the storage tier, without the involvement of the operating system on either end, no context, switches, knowing processing latencies and all of that. So it's hardware to hardware, communication with security built in, which is immutable, right? So all of this is built into the hardware itself. So there's no software involved. You perform a read, the data comes back 19 microseconds, boom. End of story. >>Yeah. So that's key to my next topic, which is security because if you're not getting the OSTP involved and that's, you know, very oftentimes if I can get access to the OSTP, I get privileged. Like I can really take advantage of that as a hacker. But so, but, but before I go there, like Oracle talks about, it's got a huge percentage of the Gayety 7% of the fortune 100 companies run their mission, critical workloads on exit data. But so that's not only important to the companies, but they're serving consumer me, right. I'm going to my ATM or I'm swiping my credit card. And Juan mentioned that you use a layered security model. I just sort of inferred anyway, that, that having this stuff in hardware and not have to involve access to the OS actually contributes to better security. But can you describe this in a bit more detail? >>So yeah, what Brian was talking about was this layered security set differently. It is defense in depth, and that's been our mantra and philosophy for several years now. So what does that entail? As I mentioned earlier, we designed our own servers. We do this for performance. We also do it for security. We've got a number of features that are built into the hardware that make sure that we've got immutable areas of form where we, for instance, let me give you this example. If you take an article x86 server, just a standard x86 server, not even express in the form of an extra data system, even if you had super user privileges sitting on top of an operating system, you cannot modify the bias as a user, as a super user that has to be done through the system management network. So we put gates and protection modes, et cetera, right in the hardware itself. >>Now, of course the security of that hardware goes all the way back to the fact that we own the design. We've got a global supply chain, but we are making sure that our supply chain is protected monitored. And, uh, we also protect the last mile of the supply chain, which is we can detect if there's been any tampering of form where that's been, uh, that's occurred in the hardware while the hardware shipped from our factory to the customers, uh, docks. Right? So we, we know that something's been tampered with the moment it comes back up on the customer. So that's on the hardware. Let's take a look at the operating system, Oracle Linux, we own article the next, the entire source code. And what shipping on exit data is the unbreakable enterprise Connell, the carnal and the operating system itself have been reduced in terms of eliminating all unnecessary packages from that operating system bundle. >>When we deliver it in the form of the data, let's put some real numbers on that. A standard Oracle Linux or a standard Linux distribution has got about 5,000 plus packages. These things include like print servers, web servers, a whole bunch of stuff that you're not absolutely going to use at all on exit data. Why ship those? Because the moment you ship more stuff than you need, you are increasing the, uh, the target, uh, that attackers can get to. So on AXA data, there are only 701 packages. So compare this 5,413 packages on a standard Linux, 701 and exit data. So we reduced the attack surface another aspect on this, when we, we do our own STIG, uh, ASCAP benchmarking. If you take a standard Linux and you run that ASCAP benchmark, you'll get about a 30% pass score on exit data. It's 90 plus percent. >>So which means we are doing the heavy lifting of doing the security checks on the operating system before it even goes out to the factory. And then you layer on Oracle database, transparent data encryption. We've got all kinds of protection capabilities, data reduction, being able to do an authentication on a user ID basis, being able to log it, being able to track it, being able to determine who access the system when and log back. So it's basically defend at every single layer. And then of course the customer's responsibility. It doesn't just stop by getting this high secure, uh, environment. They have to do their own job of them securing their network perimeters, securing who has physical access to the system and everything else. So it's a giant responsibility. And as you mentioned, you know, you as a consumer going to an ATM machine and withdrawing money, you would do 200. You don't want to see 5,000 deducted from your account. And so all of this is made possible with exited and the amount of security focus that we have on the system >>And the bank doesn't want to see it the other way. So I'm geeking out here in the cube, but I got one more question for you. Juan talked about X nine M best system for database consolidation. So I, I kinda, you know, it was built to handle all LTP analytics, et cetera. So I want to push you a little bit on this because I can make an argument that, that this is kind of a Swiss army knife versus the best screwdriver or the best knife. How do you respond to that concern and how, how do you respond to the concern that you're putting too many eggs in one basket? Like, what do you tell people to fear you're consolidating workloads to save money, but you're also narrowing the blast radius. Isn't that a problem? >>Very good question there. So, yes. So this is an interesting problem, and it is a balancing act. As you correctly pointed out, you want to have the economies of scale that you get when you consolidate more and more databases, but at the same time, when something happens when hardware fails or there's an attack, you want to make sure that you have business continuity. So what we are doing on exit data, first of all, as I mentioned, we are designing our own hardware and a building in reliability into the system and at the hardware layer, that means having redundancy, redundancy for fans, power supplies. We even have the ability to isolate faulty cores on the processor. And we've got this a tremendous amount of sweeping that's going on by the system management stack, looking for problem areas and trying to contain them as much as possible within the hardware itself. >>Then you take it up to the software layer. We used our reliability to then build high availability. What that implies is, and that's fundamental to the exited architecture is this entire scale out model, our based system, you cannot go smaller than having two database nodes and three storage cells. Why is that? That's because you want to have high availability of your database instances. So if something happens to one server hardware, software, whatever you got another server that's ready to take on that load. And then with real application clusters, you can then switch over between these two, why three storage cells. We want to make sure that when you have got duplicate copies of data, because you at least want to have one additional copy of your data in case something happens to the disc that has got that only that one copy, right? So the reason we have got three is because then you can Stripe data across these three different servers and deliver high availability. >>Now you take that up to the rack level. A lot of things happen. Now, when you're really talking about the blast radius, you want to make sure that if something physically happens to this data center, that you have infrastructure that's available for it to function for business continuity, we maintain, which is why we have the maximum availability architecture. So with components like golden gate and active data guard, and other ways by which we can keep to this distant systems in sync is extremely critical for us to deliver these high availability paths that make, uh, the whole equation about how many eggs in one basket versus containing the containment of the blast radius. A lot easier to grapple with because business continuity is something which is paramount to us. I mean, Oracle, the enterprise is running on Xcel data. Our high value cloud customers are running on extra data. And I'm sure Bob's going to talk a lot more about the cloud piece of it. So I think we have all the tools in place to, to go after that optimization on how many eggs in one basket was his blast radius. It's a question of working through the solution and the criticalities of that particular instance. >>Okay, great. Thank you for that detailed soup. We're going to give you a break. You go take a breath, get a, get a drink of water. Maybe we'll come back to you. If we have time, let's go to Bob, Bob, Bob tome, X data cloud at customer X nine M earlier this week, Juan said kinda, kinda cocky. What we're bothering, comparing exit data against your cloud, a customer against outpost or Azure stack. Can you elaborate on, on why that is? >>Sure. Or you, you know, first of all, I want to say, I love, I love baby. We go south posts. You know why it affirms everything that we've been doing for the past four and a half years with clouded customer. It affirms that cloud is running that running cloud services in customers' data center is a large and important market, large and important enough that AWS felt that the need provide these, um, you know, these customers with an AWS option, even if it only supports a sliver of the functionality that they provide in the public cloud. And that's what they're doing. They're giving it a sliver and they're not exactly leading with the best they could offer. So for that reason, you know, that reason alone, there's really nothing to compare. And so we, we give them the benefit of the doubt and we actually are using their public cloud solutions. >>Another point most customers are looking to deploy to Oracle cloud, a customer they're looking for a per performance, scalable, secure, and highly available platform to deploy. What's offered their most critical databases. Most often they are Oracle databases does outposts for an Oracle database. No. Does outpost run a comparable database? Not really does outposts run Amazon's top OTP and analytics database services, the ones that are top in their cloud public cloud. No, that we couldn't find anything that runs outposts that's worth comparing against X data clouded customer, which is why the comparisons are against their public cloud products. And even with that still we're looking at numbers like 50 times a hundred times slower, right? So then there's the Azure stack. One of the key benefits to, um, you know, that customers love about the cloud that I think is really under, appreciated it under appreciated is really that it's a single vendor solution, right? You have a problem with cloud service could be I as pass SAS doesn't matter. And there's a single vendor responsible for fixing your issue as your stack is missing big here, because they're a multi-vendor cloud solution like AWS outposts. Also, they don't exactly offer the same services in the cloud that they offer on prem. And from what I hear, it can be a management nightmare requiring specialized administrators to keep that beast running. >>Okay. So, well, thanks for that. I'll I'll grant you that, first of all, granted that Oracle was the first with that same, same vision. I always tell people that, you know, if they say, well, we were first I'm like, well, actually, no, Oracle's first having said that, Bob and I hear you that, that right now, outpost is a one Datto version. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but neither did your cloud when you first launched your cloud. So let's, let's let it bake for a while and we'll come back in a couple of years and see how things compare. So if you're up for it. Yeah. >>Just remember that we're still in the oven too. Right. >>Okay. All right. Good. I love it. I love the, the chutzpah. One also talked about Deutsche bank. Um, and that, I, I mean, I saw that Deutsche bank announcement, how they're working with Oracle, they're modernizing their infrastructure around database. They're building other services around that and kind of building their own sort of version of a cloud for their customers. How does exit data cloud a customer fit in to that whole Deutsche bank deal? Is, is this solution unique to Deutsche bank? Do you see other organizations adopting clouded customer for similar reasons and use cases? >>Yeah, I'll start with that. First. I want to say that I don't think Georgia bank is unique. They want what all customers want. They want to be able to run their most important workloads. The ones today running their data center on exit eight as a non other high-end systems in a cloud environment where they can benefit from things like cloud economics, cloud operations, cloud automations, but they can't move to public cloud. They need to maintain the service levels, the performance, the scalability of the security and the availability that their business has. It has come to depend on most clouds can't provide that. Although actually Oracle's cloud can our public cloud Ken, because our public cloud does run exit data, but still even with that, they can't do it because as a bank, they're subject to lots of rules and regulations, they cannot move their 40 petabytes of data to a point outside the control of their data center. >>They have thousands of interconnected databases, right? And applications. It's like a rat's nest, right? And this is similar many large customers have this problem. How do you move that to the cloud? You can move it piecemeal. Uh, I'm going to move these apps and, you know, not move those apps. Um, but suddenly ended up with these things where some pieces are up here. Some pieces are down here. The thing just dies because of the long latency over a land connection, it just doesn't work. Right. So you can also shut it down. Let's shut it down on, on Friday and move everything all at once. Unfortunately, when you're looking at it, a state decides that most customers have, you're not going to be able to, you're going to be down for a month, right? Who can, who can tolerate that? So it's a big challenge and exited cloud a customer let's then move to the cloud without losing control of their data. >>And without unhappy having to untangle that thousands of interconnected databases. So, you know, that's why these customers are choosing X data, clouded customer. More importantly, it sets them up for the future with exited cloud at customer, they can run not just in their data center, but they could also run in public cloud, adjacent sites, giving them a path to moving some work out of the data center and ultimately into the public cloud. You know, as I said, they're not unique. Other banks are watching and some are acting and it's not just banks. Just last week. Telefonica telco in Spain announced their intent to migrate the bulk of their Oracle databases to excavate a cloud at customer. This will be the key cloud platform running. They're running in their data center to support both new services, as well as mission critical and operational systems. And one last important point exited cloud a customer can also run autonomous database. Even if customers aren't today ready to adopt this. A lot of them are interested in it. They see it as a key piece of the puzzle moving forward in the future and customers know that they can easily start to migrate to autonomous in the future as they're ready. And this of course is going to drive additional efficiencies and additional cost savings. >>So, Bob, I got a question for you because you know, Oracle's playing both sides, right? You've got a cloud, you know, you've got a true public cloud now. And, and obviously you have a huge on-premise state. When I talk to companies that don't own a cloud, uh, whether it's Dell or HPE, Cisco, et cetera, they have made, they make the point. And I agree with them by the way that the world is hybrid, not everything's going into the, to the cloud. However, I had a lot of respect for folks at Amazon as well. And they believed long-term, they'll say this, they've got them on record of saying this, that they believe long-term ultimately all workloads are going to be running in the cloud. Now, I guess it depends on how you define the cloud. The cloud is expanding and all that other stuff. But my question to you, because again, you kind of on both sides, here are our hybrid solutions like cloud at customer. Do you see them as a stepping stone to the cloud, or is cloud in your data center, sort of a continuous sort of permanent, you know, essential play >>That. That's a great question. As I recall, people debated this a few years back when we first introduced clouded customer. And at that point, some people I'm talking about even internal Oracle, right? Some people saw this as a stop gap measure to let people leverage cloud benefits until they're really ready for the public cloud. But I think over the past four and a half years, the changing the thinking has changed a little bit on this. And everyone kind of agrees that clouded customer may be a stepping stone for some customers, but others see that as the end game, right? Not every workload can run in the public cloud, not at least not given the, um, you know, today's regulations and the issues that are faced by many of these regulated industries. These industries move very, very slowly and customers are content to, and in many cases required to retain complete control of their data and they will be running under their control. They'll be running with that data under their control and the data center for the foreseeable future. >>Oh, I got another question for kind of just, if I could take a little tangent, cause the other thing I hear from the, on the, the, the on-prem don't own, the cloud folks is it's actually cheaper to run in on-prem, uh, because they're getting better at automation, et cetera. When you get the exact opposite from the cloud guys, they roll their eyes. Are you kidding me? It's way cheaper to run it in the cloud, which is more cost-effective is it one of those? It depends, Bob. >>Um, you know, the great thing about numbers is you can make, you can, you can kind of twist them to show anything that you want, right? That's a have spreadsheet. Can I, can, I can sell you on anything? Um, I think that there's, there's customers who look at it and they say, oh, on-premise sheet is cheaper. And there's customers who look at it and say, the cloud is cheaper. If you, um, you know, there's a lot of ways that you may incur savings in the cloud. A lot of it has to do with the cloud economics, the ability to pay for what you're using and only what you're using. If you were to kind of, you know, if you, if you size something for your peak workload and then, you know, on prem, you probably put a little bit of a buffer in it, right? >>If you size everything for that, you're gonna find that you're paying, you know, this much, right? All the time you're paying for peak workload all the time with the cloud, of course, we support scaling up, scaling down. We supply, we support you're paying for what you use and you can scale up and scale down. That's where the big savings is now. There's also additional savings associated with you. Don't have the cloud vendors like work. Well, we manage that infrastructure for you. You no longer have to worry about it. Um, we have a lot of automation, things that you use to either, you know, probably what used to happen is you used to have to spend hours and hours or years or whatever, scripting these things yourselves. We now have this automation to do it. We have, um, you eyes that make things ad hoc things, as simple as point and click and, uh, you know, that eliminates errors. And, and it's often difficult to put a cost on those things. And I think the more enlightened customers can put a cost on all of those. So the people that were saying it's cheaper to run on prem, uh, they, they either, you know, have a very stable workload that never changes and their environment never changes, um, or more likely. They just really haven't thought through the, all the hidden costs out there. >>All right, you got some new features. Thank you for that. By the way, you got some new features in, in cloud, a customer, a what are those? Do I have to upgrade to X nine M to, to get >>All right. So, you know, we're always introducing new features for clouded customer, but two significant things that we've rolled out recently are operator access control and elastic storage expansion. As we discussed, many organizations are using Axeda cloud a customer they're attracting the cloud economics, the operational benefits, but they're required by regulations to retain control and visibility of their data, as well as any infrastructure that sits inside their data center with operator access control, enabled cloud operations, staff members must request access to a customer system, a customer, it team grants, a designated person, specific access to a specific component for a specific period of time with specific privileges, they can then kind of view audit controls in real time. And if they see something they don't like, you know, Hey, what's this guy doing? It looks like he's, he's stealing my data or doing something I don't like, boom. >>They can kill that operators, access the session, the connections, everything right away. And this gives everyone, especially customers that need to, you know, regulate remote access to their infrastructure. It gives them the confidence that they need to use exit data cloud, uh, conduct, customer service. And, and the other thing that's new is, um, elastic storage expansion. Customers could out add additional service to their system either at initial deployment or after the fact. And this really provides two important benefits. The first is that they can right size their configuration if they need only the minimum compute capacity, but they don't need the maximum number of storage servers to get that capacity. They don't need to subscribe to kind of a fixed shape. We used to have fixed shapes, I guess, with hundreds of unnecessary database cores, just to get the storage capacity, they can select a smaller system. >>And then incrementally add on that storage. The second benefit is the, is kind of key for many customers. You are at a storage, guess what you can add more. And that way, when you're out of storage, that's really important. Now they'll get to your last part of that question. Do you need a deck, a new, uh, exit aquatic customer XIM system to get these features? No they're available for all gen two exited clouded customer systems. That's really one of the best things about cloud. The service you subscribed to today just keeps getting better and better. And unless there's some technical limitation that, you know, we, and it, which is rare, most new features are available even for the oldest cloud customer systems. >>Cool. And you can bring that in on from my, my last question for you, Bob is a, another one on security. Obviously, again, we talked to Susan about this. It's a big deal. How can customer data be secure if it's in the cloud, if somebody, other than the, their own vetted employees are managing the underlying infrastructure, is is that a concern you hear a lot and how do you handle that? >>You know, it's, it's only something because a lot of these customers, they have big, you know, security people and it's their job to be concerned about that kind of stuff. And security. However, is one of the biggest, but least appreciate appreciated benefits of cloud cloud vendors, such as Oracle hire the best and brightest security experts to ensure that their clouds are secure. Something that only the largest customers can afford to do. You're a small, small shop. You're not going to be able to, you know, hire some of this expertise. So you're better off being in the cloud. Customers who are running in the Oracle cloud can also use articles, data, safe tool, which we provide, which basically lets you inspect your databases, insurance. Sure that everything is locked down and secure and your data is secure. But your question is actually a little bit different. >>It was about potential internal threats to company's data. Given the cloud vendor, not the customer's employees have access to the infrastructure that sits beneath the databases and really the first and most important thing we do to protect customers' data is we encrypt that database by default. Actually Subin listed a whole laundry list of things, but that's the one thing I want to point out. We encrypt your database. It's, you know, it's, it's encrypted. Yes. It sits on our infrastructure. Yes. Our operations persons can actually see those data files sitting on the infrastructure, but guess what? They can't see the data. The data is encrypted. All they see as kind of a big encrypted blob. Um, so they can't access the data themselves. And you know, as you'd expect, we have very tight controls over operations access to the infrastructure. They need to securely log in using mechanisms by stuff to present, prevent unauthorized access. >>And then all access is logged and suspicious. Activities are investigated, but that still may not be enough for some customers, especially the ones I mentioned earlier, the regulated industries. And that's why we offer app operator access control. As I mentioned, that gives customers complete control over the access to the infrastructure. The, when the, what ops can do, how long can they do it? Customers can monitor in real time. And if they see something they don't like they stop it immediately. Lastly, I just want to mention Oracle's data ball feature. This prevents administrators from accessing data, protecting data from road operators, robot, world operations, whether they be from Oracle or from the customer's own it staff, this database option. A lot of ball is sorry. Database ball data vault is included when running a license included service on exited clouded customer. So basically to get it with the service. Got it. >>Hi Tom. Thank you so much. It's unbelievable, Bob. I mean, we've got a lot to unpack there, but uh, we're going to give you a break now and go to Tim, Tim chin, zero data loss, recovery appliance. We always love that name. The big guy we think named it, but nobody will tell us, but we've been talking about security. There's been a lot of news around ransomware attacks. Every industry around the globe, any knucklehead with, uh, with a high school diploma could become a ransomware attack or go in the dark web, get, get ransomware as a service stick, a, put a stick in and take a piece of the VIG and hopefully get arrested. Um, with, when you think about database, how do you deal with the ransomware challenge? >>Yeah, Dave, um, that's an extremely important and timely question. Um, we are hearing this from our customers. We just talk about ha and backup strategies and ransomware, um, has been coming up more and more. Um, and the unfortunate thing that these ransoms are actually paid, um, uh, in the hope of the re you know, the, uh, the ability to access the data again. So what that means it tells me is that today's recovery solutions and processes are not sufficient to get these systems back in a reliable and timely manner. Um, and so you have to pay the ransom, right, to get, uh, to get the, even a hope of getting the data back now for databases. This can have a huge impact because we're talking about transactional workloads. And so even a compromise of just a few minutes, a blip, um, can affect hundreds or even thousands of transactions. This can literally represent hundreds of lost orders, right? If you're a big manufacturing company or even like millions of dollars worth of, uh, financial transactions in a bank. Right. Um, and that's why protecting databases at a transaction level is especially critical, um, for ransomware. And that's a huge contrast to traditional backup approaches. Okay. >>So how do you approach that? What do you, what do you do specifically for ransomware protection for the database? >>Yeah, so we have the zero data loss recovery appliance, which we announced the X nine M generation. Um, it is really the only solution in the market, which offers that transaction level of protection, which allows all transactions to be recovered with zero RPO, zero again, and this is only possible because Oracle has very innovative and unique technology called real-time redo, which captures all the transactional changes from the databases by the appliance, and then stored as well by the appliance, moreover, the appliance validates all these backups and reading. So you want to make sure that you can recover them after you've sent them, right? So it's not just a file level integrity check on a file system. That's actual database level of validation that the Oracle blocks and the redo that I mentioned can be restored and recovered as a usable database, any kind of, um, malicious attack or modification of that backup data and transmit that, or if it's even stored on the appliance and it was compromised would be immediately detected and reported by that validation. >>So this allows administrators to take action. This is removing that system from the network. And so it's a huge leap in terms of what customers can get today. The last thing I just want to point out is we call our cyber vault deployment, right? Um, a lot of customers in the industry are creating what we call air gapped environments, where they have a separate location where their backup copies are stored physically network separated from the production systems. And so this prevents ransomware for possibly infiltrating that last good copy of backups. So you can deploy recovery appliance in a cyber vault and have it synchronized at random times when the network's available, uh, to, to keep it in sync. Right. Um, so that combined with our transaction level zero data loss validation, it's a nice package and really a game changer in protecting and recovering your databases from modern day cyber threats. >>Okay, great. Thank you for clarifying that air gap piece. Cause I, there was some confusion about that. Every data protection and backup company that I know as a ransomware solution, it's like the hottest topic going, you got newer players in, in, in recovery and backup like rubric Cohesity. They raised a ton of dough. Dell has got solutions, HPE just acquired Zerto to deal with this problem. And other things IBM has got stuff. Veem seems to be doing pretty well. Veritas got a range of, of recovery solutions. They're sort of all out there. What's your take on these and their strategy and how do you differentiate? >>Yeah, it's a pretty crowded market, like you said. Um, I think the first thing you really have to keep in mind and understand that these vendors, these new and up and coming, um, uh, uh, vendors start in the copy data management, we call CDN space and they're not traditional backup recovery designed are purpose built for the purpose of CDM products is to provide these fast point in time copies for test dev non-production use, and that's a viable problem and it needs a solution. So you create these one time copy and then you create snapshots. Um, after you apply these incremental changes to that copy, and then the snapshot can be quickly restored and presented as like it's a fully populated, uh, file. And this is all done through the underlying storage of block pointers. So all of this kind of sounds really cool and modern, right? It's like new and upcoming and lots of people in the market doing this. Well, it's really not that modern because we've, we know storage, snapshot technologies has been around for years. Right. Um, what these new vendors have been doing is essentially repackaging the old technology for backup and recovery use cases and having sort of an easier to use automation interface wrapped around it. >>Yeah. So you mentioned a copy data management, uh, last year, active FIO. Uh, they started that whole space from what I recall at one point there, they value more than a billion dollars. They were acquired by Google. Uh, and as I say, they kind of created that, that category. So fast forward a little bit, nine months a year, whatever it's been, do you see that Google active FIO offer in, in, in customer engagements? Is that something that you run into? >>We really don't. Um, yeah, it was really popular and known some years ago, but we really don't hear about it anymore. Um, after the acquisition, you look at all the collateral and the marketing, they are really a CDM and backup solution exclusively for Google cloud use cases. And they're not being positioned as for on premises or any other use cases outside of Google cloud. That's what, 90, 90 plus percent of your market there that isn't addressable now by Activia. So really we don't see them in any of our engagements at this time. >>I want to come back and push it a little bit, uh, on some of the tech that you said, it's kind of really not that modern. Uh, I mean it's, if they certainly position it as modern, a lot of the engineers who are building there's new sort of backup and recovery capabilities came from the hyperscalers, whether it's copy data management, you know, the bot mock quote, unquote modern backup recovery, it's kind of a data management, sort of this nice all in one solution seems pretty compelling. How does recovery clients specifically stack up? You know, a lot of people think it's a niche product for, for really high end use cases. Is that fair? How do you see a town? >>Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I think it's so important to just, you know, understand, again, the fundamental use of this technology is to create data copies for test W's right. Um, and that's really different than operational backup recovery in which you must have this ability to do full and point in time recoverability in any production outage or Dr. Situation. Um, and then more importantly, after you recover and your applications are back in business, that performance must continue to meet servers levels as before. And when you look at a CDM product, um, and you restore a snapshot and you say with that product and the application is brought up on that restored snapshot, what happens or your production application is now running on actual read rideable snapshots on backup storage. Remember they don't restore all the data back to the production, uh, level stores. They're restoring it as a snapshot okay. >>Onto their storage. And so you have a huge difference in performance. Now running these applications where they instantly recovered, if you will database. So to meet these true operational requirements, you have to fully restore the files to production storage period. And so recovery appliance was first and foremost designed to accomplish this. It's an operational recovery solution, right? We accomplish that. Like I mentioned, with this real-time transaction protection, we have incremental forever backup strategies. So that you're just taking just the changes every day. And you, you can create these virtual full backups that are quickly restored, fully restored, if you will, at 24 terabytes an hour. And we validate and document that performance very clearly in our website. And of course we provide that continuous recovery validation for all the backups that are stored on the system. So it's, um, it's a very nice, complete solution. >>It scales to meet your demands, hundreds of thousands of databases, you know, it's, um, you know, these CDM products might seem great and they work well for a few databases, but then you put a real enterprise load and these hundreds of databases, and we've seen a lot of times where it just buckles, you know, it can't handle that kind of load in that, uh, in that scale. Uh, and, and this is important because customers read their marketing and read the collateral like, Hey, instant recovery. Why wouldn't I want that? Well, it's, you know, nicer than it looks, you know, it always sounds better. Right. Um, and so we have to educate them and about exactly what that means for the database, especially backup recovery use cases. And they're not really handled well, um, with their products. >>I know I'm like way over. I had a lot of questions on this announcement and I was gonna, I was gonna let you go, Tim, but you just mentioned something that, that gave me one more question if I may. So you talked about, uh, supporting hundreds of thousands of databases. You petabytes, you have real world use cases that, that actually leverage the, the appliance in these types of environments. Where does it really shine? >>Yeah. Let me just give you just two real quick ones. You know, we have a company energy transfer, the major natural gas and pipeline operator in the U S so they are a big part of our country's critical infrastructure services. We know ransomware, and these kinds of threats are, you know, are very much viable. We saw the colonial pipeline incident that happened, right? And so the attack, right, critical services while energy transfer was running, lots of databases and their legacy backup environments just couldn't keep up with their enterprise needs. They had backups taking like, well, over a day, they had restores taking several hours. Um, and so they had problems and they couldn't meet their SLS. They moved to the recovery appliance and now they're seeing backwards complete with that incremental forever in just 15 minutes. So that's like a 48 times improvement in backup time. >>And they're also seeing restores completing in about 30 minutes, right. Versus several hours. So it's a, it's a huge difference for them. And they also get that nice recovery validation and monitoring by the system. They know the health of their enterprise at their fingertips. The second quick one is just a global financial services customer. Um, and they have like over 10,000 databases globally and they, they really couldn't find a solution other than throw more hardware kind of approach to, uh, to fix their backups. Well, this, uh, not that the failures and not as the issues. So they moved to recovery appliance and they saw their failed backup rates go down for Matta plea. They saw four times better backup and restore performance. Um, and they have also a very nice centralized way to monitor and manage the system. Uh, real-time view if you will, that data protection health for their entire environment. Uh, and they can show this to the executive management and auditing teams. This is great for compliance reporting. Um, and so they finally done that. They have north of 50 plus, um, recovery appliances a day across that on global enterprise. >>Love it. Thank you for that. Um, uh, guys, great power panel. We have a lot of Oracle customers in our community and the best way to, to help them is to, I get to ask you a bunch of questions and get the experts to answer. So I wonder if you could bring us home, maybe you could just sort of give us the, the top takeaways that you want to your customers to remember in our audience to remember from this announcement. >>Sure, sorry. Uh, I want to actually pick up from where Tim left off and talk about a real customer use case. This is hot off the press. One of the largest banks in the United States, they decided to, that they needed to update. So performance software update on 3000 of their database instances, which are spanning 68, exited a clusters, massive undertaking, correct. They finished the entire task in three hours, three hours to update 3000 databases and 68 exited a clusters. Talk about availability, try doing this on any other infrastructure, no way anyone's going to be able to achieve this. So that's on terms of the availability, right? We are engineering in all of the aspects of database management, performance, security availability, being able to provide redundancy at every single level is all part of the design philosophy and how we are engineering this product. And as far as we are concerned, the, the goal is for forever. >>We are just going to continue to go down this path of increasing performance, increasing the security aspect of the, uh, of the infrastructure, as well as our Oracle database and keep going on this. You know, this, while these have been great results that we've delivered with extra data X nine M the, the journey is on and to our customers. The biggest advantage that you're going to get from the kind of performance metrics that we are driving with extra data is consolidation consolidate more, move, more database instances onto the extended platform, gain the benefits from that consolidation, reduce your operational expenses, reduce your capital expenses. They use your management expenses, all of those, bring it down to accelerator. Your total cost of ownership is guaranteed to go down. Those are my key takeaways, Dave >>Guys, you've been really generous with your time. Uh Subin uh, uh, uh, Bob, Tim, I appreciate you taking my questions and we'll willingness to go toe to toe, really? Thanks for your time. >>You're welcome, David. Thank you. Thank you. >>And thank you for watching this video exclusive from the cube. This is Dave Volante, and we'll see you next time. Be well.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to "theCube's" coverage of Mobile World Congress 2021. We're here in person and remote. This is a physical and virtual. It's a hybrid event, and "theCube's" got wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCube." We've got a great guest here, Adolfo Hernandez, Vice-President, Global Telco Business Unit for Amazon Web Services, AWS. Adolfo, thank you for coming on remotely for this virtual hybrid Mobile World Congress. >> Thanks for having me, John, exciting. >> You have an impressive background in telecom industry. Over the years the technology industry has been great innovation. We've seen, I mean, how many Gs have been we've gone through, but I remember the days when wifi wasn't even around. So (laughing) You got a complete change in the past couple decades. This year, more than ever with the pandemic coming through this, you're starting to see some clear visibility on the trends, and also, this is the first Mobile World Congress in person since 2019, so a lot has changed. What is your view on the marketplace, and what is your message you're telling the telecom industry from Amazon's and your perspective? What do you see? >> Yeah, you're absolutely right, John. This is a fascinating time to be on the cloud, to be at Mobile World Congress. I remember Mobile World Congress 2020 was the first event that actually got canceled. So that was the beginning of the pandemic. And now, here we are, a year and a bit later, working with the leading telecommunications operators with the leading telecommunication sides based on solution providers and what better place that would be in doing that with AWS in this very transformational time in this space. We are supporting telecom operators around the world, as they reinvent communications in many different ways. This is not just one more G, we are definitely transforming the industry. Like any industry, we see telecom operators having to get simplification on their operations and transforming the IT side of the house. So they've go the internal IT, that needs a big transformation, they also got the network IT, everything related with OSS and BSS, and they need to migrate that to the cloud. And we've got a lot of experience by doing that with telcos around the world, to really help them accelerate that journey to the cloud. And we can help them with data center consolidation, migrations and a number of things. So we've got examples like GiffGaff, which is one of the largest MVNOs, and one of the first ones in Europe to go all in on the AWS cloud and they move all the data and the heart of the business there. So once you're sort of dealing with the network, the IT transformation, then you've got to go and look at how do you reinvent and accelerate the delivery of 5G connectivity? Well, that's very current as we're doing now. And we really want to help them because when they accelerate to the cloud, they get more flexibility, they get more agility, they get more cost effectiveness. And if you think about how traditional telco networks were built, where you have to provision a lot of systems you have to provision a lot on the base stations, and then you needed to provision a lot of systems on the Ram side, and then you needed to put aggregation centers, traffic centers, and then you would have the headquarters, and then you would have all the network functions, going from the radio all the way into the center. All of the systems needed to be provision for peak capacity. They sort of famous Mother's Day moment. As you move to the cloud, you can provision on the different parts of the cloud, you can provision on the AWS Outpost, you can provision on locals phone, you can provision on regions, and you leverage right away the experience that we've got on all of our infrastructure, reducing costs, getting a lot of flexibility and being able to embark, just and consume what you need. And, an example of that, it's been a Telefonica Vivo in Brazil. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago, and they've accelerated their move by deploying a 5G standalone cloud native platform. And that gives them a lot of automation capabilities. It gives them faster CI/CD/CT. So really cool stuff that you couldn't do in the old ways of building networks- >> It's interesting you mentioned CI/CD pipeline and developers. To me that's what comes to my mind when I think of AWS, the enablement of developers, now the enterprise. Now you've got the telco cloud and Amazon is not known for being a 5G player, but you guys are enabling a lot of 5G. Could you address that question? How is Amazon web services enabling 5G? What's your answer to that? >> So first of all, I have to say that 5G is an absolutely great example that this is a lot about moving to the cloud. 5G is cloud native, it's cloud friendly. You can virtualize pretty much every function. You can separate every function from the hardware and the software move everything to the cloud. And that is really lending itself to move to a cloud delivery model. As we were talking about earlier, we are enabling people to go and take the AWS infrastructure like AWS Outpost and bringing all the AWS infrastructure, all the services, all the APIs and all the tools that you have on AWS, virtually to any single location. And that allows you to really deploy themes like thousands of cell sites across a run, you couldn't do that before. On the AWS local zones, you can take everything that compute storage databases and a lot of different services. And those are perfect for large metro areas where you need to do a lot of network traffic aggregation, and this makes them really good to deploy in parts of the network core. Again, that's another re-innovation. And then you can look at then the regions and the regions have everything that you need from a compute storage and services perspective. And that those are really well suited for BSS for OSS to keeping the network running and to do all of that. And you can do that today, leveraging existing infrastructure. You don't have to acquire that, you don't have to provision, that you don't have to provision for the peak capacity and then you don't have to install and manage, and I think that's a serious breakthrough for the industry. >> Okay, so let me just capture that, 'cause I heard a bunch of things that I really like, cloud native 5G. What does cloud native 5G mean for the telco industry specifically? >> Well, I think if I had to put it down to one thing, it's just about making it really easy to roll out. And it's about being able to deploy easily to automate easily, so you can free up investment and you can free up resources and you can free up overhead. You can really start taking advantage of all that flexibility and scalability and automation that you get with the cloud and you apply that to a network, and that is the very first time we're able to do that in wireless. And it's just going to give you a lot of advantages. Look at Dish. We made this announcement with Dish that they are moving with one of the industry first 5G cloud native networks out there. Look at the example I talked about earlier, Telefonica Vivo, we're doing that 5G standalone solution. So you're going to be seeing, this is just the beginning, but this is going to be not the end because there's a lot of interest in getting these benefits. >> I saw the Dave Brown announcement with Dish a while back just recently. So I want to ask you, does Graviton processors play a role on the Dish deal? Do you mind answering that? If you comment on that? >> Yeah, I think you might remember Dave Brown being very proud of everything that Graviton2 processors can do in terms of increase in the price performance, helping telco operators, not only with the price performance factor, but also with the energy equation. So it's just really exciting to have that differentiation and being able to deliver that innovation and that value to telco operators in a cloud native 5G network. >> I got to ask you about some of the open source and cloud scale things coming together. That's a big trend I'm seeing here at Mobile World Congress. Openness, multi-vendor, scaling up quickly, provisioning stuff fast and easy, leveraging existing technologies and of course, developer friendly. So with that, I got to ask you, what's all the big deal about with this Open RAN. Obviously radios are key and wireless. What does Open RAN mean? Can you take us through, what's the importance of this? >> Yeah, Open RAN is an industry wide or mostly industry-wide initiative to look into effectively trying to apply some of these open and sharing models to the RAN. You've got vendors and you've got telco operators participating. But what we do and you know as well John, 'cause you've been working with AWS for a while, you know, that we're very customer focused, and 90% of what we do is what we hear that they are trying to solve because it's the things that matter to them. So what we engage with them, what we engage with somebody like Dish, and they tell us that they are interested in Open RAN, we will go and partner with the right partners who can provide the right solution to deliver on that Open RAN. And you've seen we signed agreements with the likes of Nokia to do research and solutions on cloud RAN. You also saw a couple of weeks ago, we did another collaboration announcement with Mavenir, to deliver not only cloud run, but I said of 5G solutions like IMS, the 4G 5G converge packet, or messaging and others. So we are engaging with the complete ecosystem on our customer's behalf to deliver whatever thereafter, and Open RAN is one of these topics and that we're delivering to operators like Deutsche and others in the market. >> Do you think that this new shift with cloud is going to increase the surface area? 'Cause that to me is the big theme I'm seeing what this new shift, as we look at, even telco cloud and the Edge, it's the classic surface area. And this is well known in the security world, but the there's no perimeter anymore. The surface area for security is everywhere. So things have changed. But telco just seems like the edge is expanding, you got satellite, you got space, you got more 5G, more commercial, so much more surface area. What's the impact going to be to the industry and to applications? >> Well, I think what we're seeing is 5G comes out there because there is a need for more data, more bandwidth obviously increased security, new standards, but there is also about latency, latency reduction. And I think that's really going to change the paradigm as we inject these increased responsiveness, these low latency, closer to the edge, and we bring the applications and we bring the compute and we bring storage as we do with wavelength right through to the edge as we are doing with Verizon, Vodafone, KDDI, SK Telecom and operators around the world. This is going to enable a number of transformational use cases for society, whether they are in virtual reality, whether they are with autonomous driving, whether it's about automating and getting more intelligence into manufacturing processes, there is just so much potential to transform society. And it all comes back with these sort of new 5G and some of the themes that enables moving closer to the edge. So as I said, really interesting times. >> Adolfo Hernandez, Vice President of Global Telco Business Unit with Amazon Web Services. Thanks for the great insight here on "theCube" for our Mobile World Congress coverage. Really, really great insight. Thanks so much. >> Thanks, John, delighted to be here. >> If you don't mind, I'd like to just quickly shift gears to something while I got you here on the industry. Adolfo you're very well known in the industry for someone who knows how to turn things around. You've done that in the past. You've been part of growth companies, you've been part of companies that have refocused. Telco has been a big change over people looking at this new opportunity as a growth opportunity. And people are looking at divesting some non-critical divisions and looking at acquisitions. I mean the private equity's on fire right now, and you're starting to see a lot more formation because there's more visibility into territory to take, there's more opportunities to be had. So there's more potential revenue than there is you can do on the cost cutting side. So everyone I talked to who's been in the industry has got their eyes are really popping out of their head, they're saying there's more opportunities if we can reconfigure our resources to take advantage of cloud. You're an expert in this area. For the folks out there who are in the boardrooms, cranking away thinking through how to organize for the cloud scale, what would be your advice to those teams? >> Well, I mean, there's a lot of insight to be had from the experience that AWS we've gained through the years, of doing this IT. And you definitely have to get a top down vision. Obviously it's really got to start at the C-suite, is moving to the cloud for what it bring. Either faster pace of innovation, the cost reduction, the agility. And that's you've got to be thinking about going to the cloud top down. Then the next thing you've got to go and say, "Okay, what are the parts of my operation "that I can go after with cloud? "Where do I start? "Do I start with the IT applications? "Do I start with some new go-to market initiatives? "Do I start by infusing some machine learning capabilities "into existing operations? "Do I start by building a data links "that I can go and monetize, "or I can go on and use to generate "best at customer service, "or I can go and fundamentally transform my networks?" Now, every telco's going to start in in different place, but I would say is you've got to start looking at that agility, that faster innovation, that better use of resources that cloud brings to telco for the very first time in a time in, in decades. And then if you're going to do that, I would strongly recommend people to talk to the provider that's got the capabilities, the broader set of services, the deepest set of services, and the most relevant experience to do that, 'cause we've been doing that in IT, and we've been working on telcos now for five plus years. And we've got pretty much every relationship. And as you know, John, this is really important. In telco you depend on collaborations on ISBs on software vendors, and every vendor out there, every software company out there will develop certainly on AWS. So we would be delighted to engage with them and help them move forward. >> Yeah, and Andy Jassy the CEO of AWS last year at re:Invent really made that the hallmark of his keynote around get those teams together, the executives top-down be a builder, think like a builder. McKinsey just put out a report, trillion dollar opportunities that no one sees yet that's coming. So a lot of emphasis on revenue, new revenue opportunities that are coming. And certainly this has been something that telcos been looking for for a long time. So great opportunity and thank you for sharing your insight. Appreciate it. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay this is "theCube's" coverage of ABS Mobile World Congress, 2021, I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Okay thanks, Adam, and the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action, the keynotes are going on in the background. It's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante's on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE, but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, and kicking it off day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me! It's very exciting! I love what you guys have got over here, very fun! >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is, and also, Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> No, I mean, the atmosphere is absolutely palpable. Isn't it? You can just feel it. People walk in and see what the future looks like for the telecoms industry. Very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage, we're really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. After the keynotes are going on, we're going to have DR maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that out. But let's check out this videotape. This is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel, and we'll be right back, and we'll talk about it. (smooth electronic music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson space at MWC 21, and for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is their unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston, or DR, as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat instrumental music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona! I'm here for MWC 21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors, and 70 demos, to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience. We're going to talk about what's in store for the new network, and the future of work. And I'm really excited to create a community, and invite awesome telco executives to see this new feature. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC 21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get-go, we planned this amazing experience that we call Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series, where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs, and awesome vendors, talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud, hosted by John furrier and Dave Vallente. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests focused on telco in the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco, and 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, am on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements, and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested $1,000,000 in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market this week at MWC. The first is at planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement, coupling your network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement, and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing is a planetary scale BSS system, built on top of the TM Forum Open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show floor. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco! I'm super excited to bring to you the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona, and virtually around the world! (upbeat instrumental music) Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry, and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (groovy electronic music) >> Okay, thanks. Just rolling that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel, I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star. And I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision, and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there! I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, it really is. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world! She's innovative, she's exciting. And if we've learned anything over the last 18 months, it's that we need that in this industry, to grow for the future of the industry. So, so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration! >> And I love the fact that she's so takes the tiger by the tail. Because the telco industry is being disrupted, she's just driving the bus here. And I remember, I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon Web Services, she was running the public sector, and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC, and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player! And she was an exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing, and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" >> Now of course, it's always that way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time, people thinking what is going on here, we don't like change, why are being shaken up? But actually, afterwards, in retrospect, they think, "Oh, okay. I see why that happened, and we needed it." So, really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here on theCUBE. Obviously, the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you missed some of the action, this is obviously the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a hybrid event, a lot of virtual action going on. So, you got theCUBE Virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites. But in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, and what was happening around the show. Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (groovy electronic music) (cheerful instrumental music) (groovy electronic music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're on the main floor out here with Chloe, who is emceeing, hosting, and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean so far, day one, I was watching your presentations and fireside chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, no, for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage, and his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing. And in 10 years, it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So, really interesting! I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great. Everyone's excited. It's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content! It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. It's very exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event, so since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event, and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry because of COVID, and people are glad to be here. But a lot of stuff's changed! >> Yeah. It's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed! Digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though, John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> John: Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years. We know that! But what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years. >> Oh, man. That's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks, and telecom, which is basically radios, and wireless, and then mobile. But it's very global, a lot of networks. But now it's evolving! And many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting, that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe, because of all the technology from the cloud players, and from the chips, getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So people look at the chips, the hardware. It's less about the speeds and feeds, it's more about the consumer experience. We got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I went, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, you order it, you pick it up. So that's kind of what can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. So, a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry? That is, the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is there anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well, I think the incumbents are going to lose their positions. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the the company that you don't see. (audience in background applauding) And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this! We saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. >> Chloe: Yeah, for sure. >> She just walked out there, and she's not afraid. >> Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up! And you can see as soon as she walks out, that is what she intends to do today. >> I love her mojo. She's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Chloe: Yep. >> I mean, even when Apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash, when Steve Jobs brought back Apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company, the iPad was a seminal, iPod, a seminal moment. Then the iPhone, and just, the rest is history. That kind of disruption is coming. You're going to see that now. >> Oh, it's exciting though, isn't it? To be future ready, rather than future proof! But actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about wire, as you're on AWS and Google Cloud, why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity. And it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. It's almost like global warming now, the icebergs are melting, and it's going to just change. And because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing, it's not like a better phone. It's a commercial app opportunity, because it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts, or football games, or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out. Can't upload their picture to Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them on the network. That's where 5G solves a problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth, and that's going to bring the edge to life, and that's money. So when you got money, and greed, and power, changing hands, if it's on the table, and the wheel's spinning, it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know! >> Oh, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved! And I suppose it circles back to the fact that DR is really leading the charge, and they're probably thinking, "Okay, what's going on here? This is different. We want something new." You did notice it, OpenRAN is something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here at Cloud City Live mention OpenRAN. What is it all about, Don? Because why all the buzz if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we get excited about it? >> That's a great thing. The 5G certainly will drive the main trend, for sure. OpenRAN is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular, and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation, has been the driver for most of the open source software. So, they're trying to make open software, and open architectures, to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware, and around infrastructure, because we need more infrastructure, we need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices. That could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology, and you want to minimize the licensing, and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What did we look at? So on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Phillip Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud, and within telco. So you just mentioned that OpenRAN is all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easily more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it at risk? >> I think it's going to increase the value of security, and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in a sense that could be explored by hackers, but open can also protect. And I think we've seen open source, and cloud in particular, be more secure. Because everyone said, cloud is not secure, open source is insecure. And as it turns out, when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security threats, but actually I was speaking to some leaders across various industries, and particularly in tech, and they were saying, actually, there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open-source environment, we are able to track them, and measure them, and defend more efficiently. So actually, they're being batted away. But the number is probably the same as it always was, we just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats, and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so to the threats. So on a net basis, it's more, because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look it, there's money involved, they are organized. There's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank, or ransomware is at an all time high. >> Yes! >> So this is like a big problem, and it's beyond the government. It's around individual freedom. So, security is huge. And I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think, the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's, again, about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time, but without collaboration, the industries are going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I'd just say on security, don't download that PDF, if you don't know who it came from. The phishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here of Mobile World Live. We're going to show this next segment, and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience, Chloe, for people who aren't here. To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona, and all the action. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Daniel Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDR. But you can call me DR! Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time! Let's do it. Holy shit! It sure is a great time to be a tech company! I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, Door Dash, or Uber, life's pretty great! Just look at these stock prices over the past five years, with their shareholder value going up and to the right. Totally amazing! But where's telco? Dare I add our stocks to this awesome chart? Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, TIM, America Movil, and Zain Group. Huh. Not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you, senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up! Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T than to Apple, because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people! I get it. You have the security blanket. You're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network, and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network, and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things. But because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far, you haven't had to. Every Telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best. Just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat. And it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting to WeChat, WhatsApp, and the other OTT apps. But it is not just texting. The total adjustable market, or TAM, of the mobile app disruptors is huge! Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about! I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love! They look at every interaction with the customer and say, how do we make the customer love this? Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive, they must make customers love them. So, they focus on it in a big way! And it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70, and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS, and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch, and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps, and becoming customer centered! Retooling around the customer is a huge change, so let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples, and drive big shareholder value, just like the tech companies on that chart! Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies in a variety of categories vying for your subscribers' disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services. Who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high valuations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You! Hello? What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAMs they throw around, you'd be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the cap ex to build out the network, I say to myself, hell yeah! We should totally go do it, and do whatever it takes to go get it. For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a Southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focus started in Rideshare, but then leveraged its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a Telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with the valuable services that helped grow your ARPU. That would be huge! So, how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app! A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great, but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called to Totogi that is going to help carriers build world-class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users. It's not the average order value. It's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user. That's the metric that matters. How many have you used that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top-up, or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences. Like Apple credit cards, no information required application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies. Like how Door Dash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings, because they do simple things, like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app, rather than forced you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. Hm, what do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder. While you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day, you have something that's 10 times better! You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network. 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to, your crappy, over customized, on-premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it, the public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi! Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network, and all the network interactions, into customer engagement. This is something that super apps don't have, but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focused to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying, massive cap ex investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps, with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day, and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100,000,000 into it. You heard me right. $100,000,000. Is this what it feels like to be SoftBank? I'm investing into Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage their network interactions into super app usage! Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience, and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those telco valuations will go from down here, (buzzes lips) to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts. And I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, "Click. Eh." Everyone says, no way. Telcos can't do it. Zero chance. Total goose egg. (egg cracking) One suggested I build a bonfire with a hundred million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well, I think those people are dead wrong! I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco, and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because Totogi takes the value of the network, and the power of the public cloud, to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focused guys, like the other telcos. Instead, you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors, they know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf, and make the customers want to choose you. You need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We'll have to give up the security blanket of the network, and change. Instead of NPS at the thirties, it needs to be in the seventies. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible! I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me, and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time, and I can't wait to see you there! >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier. Chloe Richardson's filling in for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her involving major action, major pump you up, punch in the face, "Wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here!" She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is, John, there's trillions of dollars on the table, and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in, and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> And it's not going to be, it's going to be a fight! Who will win? >> Who will win, but also who will build the next big thing? (John laughing) >> Someone needs to die in the media conversations. It's always a fight. Something's dead. Something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. Think what's happened is Telco's already acknowledged that they need to change. And the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple. They've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm. You've got all these new things. So, the chips are getting faster, and the software's more open source. And I'm telling you, the cloud is just going to drive that bus right down Cloud Street, and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peepin' on the board as it drives down. (John laughing) John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written, and one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me, what does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets, and growing markets, things behave differently, and certainly economics, and the people, and the makeup, and the mindset. So the telco has been kind of this mature market, it's been changing and growing, but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit. You know, to install a lot of cable, you got to get the rents out of that infrastructure. And that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market. And it's about building, not just operating. And you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together. Builders being software developers, new technology, and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking. But in a growth market, it's turbulent, and the ride might not be quiet, first-class ticket to paradise. It's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer? Are there parallels there? >> Yeah. I mean, there's a mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, replatform with the cloud, and then refactor your business! If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over, or go out of business. And that's what the telcos with all these assets, they're going to get bought, rolled into a SPAC, Special Purpose Acquisition Company, which is super hot in the United States. A lot of roll-ups going on with private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor, or replatform then refactor, they're going to be toast, and they're going to get rolled up, and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad, people, process, technology, and we think, process and technology really to the forefront here. But like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously, Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday, and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations, establishments. How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about? >> Yeah. I mean, education's huge, and this highlights the change that telco's now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around, and mobile was there. But once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So, you start to see people now aware of the value. And if you look at during COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses, and everyone survived because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad Zoom meetings here and there, and some teleconferences that didn't go well, but for the most part we survived, and they really saved everybody. So, they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education. People care about that stuff, so now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why the edge has got trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, "Oh, there's no jobs." Or, "I can't work." That's a bunch of BS, because you can just get online, get on YouTube, and just get a degree. You can get a degree. You can get an Amazon job. It pays a hundred thousand dollars a year! American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds, and be unemployed six months, and then be employed. So negative unemployment means, there's more jobs than people to fill them all, in fact. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that, because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in something, I think there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity. And there's such a skill shortage. There is nobody around to fill it! So it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Because it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades! And obviously, telco is in the same space. But what can we do about it do you think, to actually -- >> I think it's going to take leadership, and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university if they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money, if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there. But to me, it's the relationships, the mentorship. You're starting to see a women in tech, and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear courseware. Nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate, or degree, and accreditation, no problem. But the communities are out there, so that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that. And I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills. You can get that online, so why even go to school? So, people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also, even transferring. I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't they, so we could easily be talking to people from other industries, and bringing them into telco, and saying, "Look, bring what you know from your retail background, or your healthcare background, and help us at telco to, again, drive forwards." Just like DR was saying, it's all about the next big thing. >> Well, Danielle is always also driving a lot of change. And if you think about the jobs, and the pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy Leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to the school like that, and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now the jobs that are available weren't around five years ago, so there's no like pedigree or track record. There's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now, from a job standpoint, is people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy League, or the big degree, or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emerging and making things happen. Entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas! >> It's interesting you mention that, John, because we can't have more than five years experience in this space, we know that. But in telco, there is a problem. And maybe it's, again, it's a flipped problem where telco recruiters, or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> I think that's just, I mean I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening, one. But two, I think, you know, to be like a chip engineer, (laughs) you can't learn that online. But if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So, embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely paths you can specialize. Space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on. You see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on a virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And you know, Danielle Royston always says, "What's going to happen first, Mars colony, or telco adopting public cloud?" And some people think Mars will happen first, but. >> What do you think, John? >> I think Telco's going to get cloud. I mean first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud, and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important, because it's an architectural beachhead. And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. So, the inside baseball, and the inside money, and all the investors are focusing on the edge, because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows, it's a public secret, and it's fun to watch everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah no, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So, it's an interesting flip. And I wonder if, with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development, this efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times, John. >> John: Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So, we're the hybrid CUBE, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. That is critical dynamic! And you're seeing it. Like virtual reality, for instance, now you're seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. You got, companies like Roblox went public recently. Metaverse. It's a good time to be in that business, because experiential human relations are coming. So, I think that's going to be powered by 5G. You know, gamers. So, all good stuff. Chloe, great to be with you here on theCUBE, and we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam, and the team. We're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City. And this is theCUBE, from Cloud City, back to you, Adam, and the studio.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background, it's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante is on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City, with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it up day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. I love what you guys have got over here, very fun. >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> Know, I mean the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel as people walk in and see what the future looks like to the Telecoms industry, it's very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage. We've been really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually the keynote is going on, we're going to have DR, maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that up. But let's check out this videotape of, this is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back, we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson's space at MWC21. And for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is the unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston or DR as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience, we're going to talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go we plan this amazing experience that we call, Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live, is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud hosted by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests, focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested a hundred million dollars in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market, this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement coupling dual network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing, is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM forum, open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show for. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you, the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. (upbeat music) >> Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks. Just roll on that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star and I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months is that we need to in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, it's so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. >> And I love the fact that she's so, takes a tiger by the tail, because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here and I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon web services, she was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player. And she was exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? >> And of course, it's always the way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time people thinking what's going, we don't like change, why are we being shaken up. But actually afterwards, in retrospect, they think, oh, okay, I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a Hybrid event. A lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites, but in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show? Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're the main floor out here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one, I was watching your presentations and inspire site chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, I know for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing and in 10 years it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great, everyone's excited, there's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event. So since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry cause of COVID and people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. >> Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years, we know that, but what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving and many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because what's all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips, are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and feeds. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I'm like, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app, driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, if you order it you pick it up. So that's kind of can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. so a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry that is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is that anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. >> For sure. >> And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that's not, that you don't see. And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this. You saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. >> No. Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see as soon as she worked out. That is what she intends to do. >> I love her mojo, she's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Yep. >> I mean, even when apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a similar moment, then the iPhone and just the rest is history. That kind of disruption's coming. You're going to see that here. >> Yeah. Oh, it's exciting though isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof but actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about why, as you're in MWS and Google Cloud? Why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot, hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity and it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. >> Okay. >> It's almost like global warming now. The icebergs are melting and it's going to just change and because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone, it's a commercial app opportunity cause it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out, can't upload their pictures on Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them in the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's every, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning, and it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that, DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different, we want something new. You didn't know it's an open run or something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here constantly. I've mentioned open run. What is it all about John? Because why all the bars, if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about it? >> That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. OpenRent is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation has been the driver for most of the open source software. So they're trying to bring software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What if we look at, so on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Philippe Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud and within telco. So you just mentioned that. Open mind, it's all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easy, more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? >> I think that's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in sense that could be explored by hackers, but it can be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said, "Cloud is not secure, open source is not secure." And as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security and threats. But actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech. And they were saying, "Actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment. We are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being battered away, but the number is probably the same as it always was. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look at it, there's money involved, they're organized, there's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomwares at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government, it's our individual freedom. So security its huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's again about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration that the industries aren't going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I just say in security, don't download that PDF if you don't know who came from. The fishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live, we're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? >> Yeah. >> To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the actions. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDr, but you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time, let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up into the right. Totally amazing. But where's telco? There I add our stocks to this awesome chart. Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, America Movil and Zain group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T and to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth, the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street, to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things, but because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far you haven't had to. Every telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS, is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting, to WeChat, WhatsApp and the other OTT apps, but it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or term of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, "How do we make the customer love this?" Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies, don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscriber's disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services, who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high evaluations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You. Hello. What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAAMs they throw around, you'll be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the CapEx, to build out the network, I say to myself, "Hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get." For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focused started in rideshare, but then leverage its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with a valuable services that helped grow your ARPU, that would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Totogi that is going to help carriers build world class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users, it's not the average order value, it's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user, that's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences like Apple credit cards, no information required, application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings because they do simple things like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. What do we do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, why you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day. You have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to your crappy over customized on premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it. The public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focus to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive CapEx investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be soft bank? I'm investing in Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage. Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those Telco valuations will go from down here to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts, and I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click, everyone says, "No way, telcos can't do it." Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with 100 million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing, the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because the Totogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focus guys like the other telcos, instead you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you, you need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of NPS of the thirties, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible. I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier, Chloe Richardson filling it for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her and while with major action, major pump me up, punch in the face, wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here. She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight, who will win. >> Who will win but also who will build the next big thing? >> Someone needs to die in the media conversation, it's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is, telco's already acknowledged that they need to change in the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple, they've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm, you've got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source and I'm telling you, cloud is just going to drive that bus right down clouds street and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peeping on the board as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me. What does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets and growing markets things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. >> Okay. >> So the telco has been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, you know, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market, and it's about building, not just operating and you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together, builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. >> Okay. >> Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer and the parallels? >> Yeah. I mean, the mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, re platform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company was a super hot in the United States. A lot of roll ups going on with Private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or re platform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad. People process technology, and we think process and technology really take the forefront here but like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? >> Yeah. I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telcos now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at the, during the COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses and everyone was, survive because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well but for the most part we survived and they really saved everybody, my goodness. So they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education, people care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why The Edge has checked trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree. You can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays a hundred thousand dollars a year, American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs than people to fill them qualify. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in some of the things there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skill shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have isn't it? Cause it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telco is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think it will actually bring people in? >> I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university, they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me it's the relationships, the mentorship. You starting to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear course where nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate or degree and accreditation no problem, but communities are out there. So that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't there? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at telco to again, drive forward, just like DR is saying it's all about the next big thing. >> Danielle, I was also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and a pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to a school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now, the jobs that are available, weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now is, from a job standpoint is, people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that John, because we can have more than five years experience in this space, we know that but in telco there is a problem and maybe it's, again it's a flipped problem where, telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening one, but two, I think, you know, you've got to be like a chip engineer, you can't learn that online, but if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely parts, you can specialize, space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on, obviously Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And, you know, Danielle Royston always says, who's going to happen first, Mars, colony, or telco adopting public cloud? Some people think Mars will happen first but. >> What do you think John? >> I think telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. >> Yeah. >> And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. >> Of course. >> So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret and it's fun to watch, everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah, know, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip and I wonder if with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development its efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times John. >> Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So it's, we're the hybrid cube, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. >> Yeah. >> That is critical dynamic, and you seeing it. Like virtual reality for instance, now you seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. >> Exactly. >> You got, like Roblox went public recently. >> Yeah. >> Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, you know, gamers. So all good stuff, Chloe, great to be with you here in theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team, we're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City and this is theCUBE, from Cloud City back to you, Adam in the studio.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 special coverage sponsored by AWS global partner network. >>Welcome everyone to the cube live covering AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today. We are joined by Joshua Virgin. He is the general manager at AWS outposts. Thanks so much for coming on the cube. Joshua, >>Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>It's great to have you, so tell our viewers a little bit about AWS, AWS outposts. >>Oh sure. It's one of my favorite subjects, obviously. So outposts is a service from AWS that allows you to use the same tools, technology, API APIs, programming interfaces that you do in the cloud, but install this and run it on your own premises or in a co-location facility. So it really extends the reach of AWS to far more locations than you could otherwise use it. >>So what are some of the advancements, uh, this year >>It's, it's been an amazingly busy year, even under unprecedented kind of circumstances where we've tried to turn the crank really hard and deliver value for our customers. We increased the number of countries you could order outposts in up to 51 countries. You can now connect outpost to all 22 AWS regions and our gov cloud regions, everything outside of China. And we delivered 15 new services or incremental features, including a S3 on outposts, which was the top thing that customers asked for, but also our application load balancer, Alasta cash, our relational database service RDS. Uh, you know, there's probably more than I'm missing here, but, um, you know, and we're definitely not slowing down in that regard. 2021 will probably be an even bigger year. >>So tell us a little bit about the, the response from customers since the launch of AWS outpost last year. What are, what are you hearing? >>Yeah, I mean, we're, we're hearing a lot, uh, I think we've been pleasantly surprised by the, the breadth and the depth of the customer use cases. One of the biggest things we heard from people was, you know, the, the outposts are great, but it's a, it's a full rack of compute or many racks of compute in some cases and storage, you know, their locations that people wanted to put it in that were smaller where their space constrained, maybe a restaurant or a factory floor or a small medical facility, uh, you know, a telco like a cell site. And so what we did based on that is something that we actually just announced in Andy's keynote. Uh, just a few days ago here, which is the new small form factor outposts that are one you and two use size, uh, servers. It's about the size of one or two pizza boxes stacked on top of each other. >>So that's even going to make outposts available to even more use cases, uh, you know, early on, uh, we kind of said to ourselves that it's important to kind of give people that consistent experience wherever they might need the compute and the storage and the other services. And so I've been, I've been really pleasantly surprised, as I mentioned earlier, by how many people have talked to us. We have customers like Phillips healthcare. They are, uh, they're bringing their medical imaging solution to outposts and it allows them to kind of modernize the way they deliver services to hospitals and medical research centers around the world. Something that really wouldn't be possible without having AWS everywhere. >>And that is much, much needed today. Um, tell us a little bit about more about this year in particular, you said it yourself at the beginning of our conversation, this is an unprecedented year for so many different reasons. How has the COVID-19 pandemic effected AWS outposts and how your team interacts with customers and, and gets your job done? >>Yeah, we, I think we have some unique challenges in that regard, obviously, as I mentioned earlier, AWS outposts are installed in a co-location facility or on a customer's own premises in a data center, you know, other things like that. So obviously we have to get our technicians out there to roll them in and hook them up to your network and, you know, to get them powered up. So that means that we are complying with, uh, COVID restrictions. And as I mentioned, 51 different countries. So there was even an install earlier this year at a mining location, uh, you know, far outside the U S where we had to get technicians working with, uh, local technicians from the customer following COVID guidelines, wearing protective gear, and actually installing the outpost, uh, you know, using kind of satellite conductivity and phones to phone home, and talk to us during the installation of course, cause it's not hooked up yet. So those are just kind of examples of the, the links to which we'll go to make sure that, of course we're safe, the customers are safe, but that they can kind of continue to modernize their application portfolio and get benefits from the outposts. >>And what are you hearing from clients and customers in terms of how they're thinking about their technology needs now and in the coming year? >>Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I mean, it, it really varies by market segment. So you have customers like Ericsson and Telefonica. They're going to be using outpost to, uh, kind of run their 5g packet core technology, Abe it's, it's gotta be run at the edge right there, telcos, they need to minimize latency single digit milliseconds, or you might have a customer like Lockheed Martin. And what they've told us is they have projects that are subject to government contracts and regulations. And not only do they have of course compliance regimes, like fed ramp that they need to be aware of, but there's data residency requirements. So whether they're deploying in the United States or, you know, with our allies all around the world, the compute and the storage, they need to run in specific locations. So now outposts are going to be a key, uh, advancement and kind of a key differentiator for them in how they deliver services to their customers and still meet those data residency or compliance requirement. >>Joshua, tell our viewers more about AWS outpost ready? >>Oh, that's a, it's another thing I'm really glad you mentioned. So the outposts ready program, these are solutions from our APN and our Amazon AWS partner network that are, uh, validated and following our best practices on AWS outposts. They're certified to work and, you know, they're generally available to customers. And so it's a program where, you know, ISV and SAS providers can ensure that the technology that they provide that this third-party technology is going to work in the outpost environment. And there's, there's something about outposts that I think makes this, uh, a differentiator and uniquely valuable when I mentioned kind of that consistent hybrid experience. When you think about how outposts are deployed, you know, in a customer's data center, maybe alongside other technology they're already using. And so customers say, look, these AWS services are great, but I already use a variety of third party technology maybe from Veritas or trend micro Palo Alto networks Convolt size sense, PagerDuty, pure storage NetApp, or the, you know, the list is actually pretty extensive of what people are already using. >>And so they've said, you know, I do plan on using AWS services, but I also don't want to give up, uh, you know, what my team is already familiar with. So can you make sure that's going to work for me, whether I'm using it in the region or on the AWS outposts. And so the, the, the interest in kind of demand for this, both from customers and the enthusiasm from the partners has been off the charts. We started the program in just September, which is not that long ago, and we had 32 partners. And, uh, as of today we have an additional, uh, additional 25 partners, right? It's 57 partners, total 64 certified solutions. So that's a lot of momentum and just kind of a, a short amount of time. And I'm really happy that we can deliver that to the customer. >>So it does, it's already showing tremendous momentum. How do you think about it in terms of the primary benefits that it gives to customers and how it helps customers and partners, >>You know, in order to qualify, the solution has to be tested and validated upon, uh, against a bunch of, uh, criteria that we have very specific technical criteria, security requirements, operational, and, you know, they're, they're supported for customers with clear deployment guidelines. So, you know, the customers can kind of think of this as a guarantee that we're not just saying maybe this could work, but, but this will work. If you're already using it, it's going to continue to work in a way that's familiar to you. And again, that's important that consistent hybrid experience, whether you're using a solution from a third party or from AWS, whether you're using it in the region or on a local zone or in a wavelength zone, and some of our other kind of innovative infrastructure deployments or using it on an outpost, no matter where you're using it, it has to work the same way. >>And so this is something that customers have said, I want to be able to get up and running quickly. We had a customer riot games, uh, th they're the maker of league of legends, but also when they were launching their new game, Valerie hunt, uh, in, in June of 2020, they deployed outposts in four different locations to kind of ensure a level playing field in terms of latency and what they told us, uh, you know, very much like the service ready program is they were able to get up and running in just a matter of days once the outpost was deployed. And it's because we gave them those same API APIs, that same tooling. So I think that's really important for people and, you know, I hope we can continue to deliver on that promise. >>So to close this out here, I want you to look into your crystal ball and think ahead, 12 and 24 months, when you know, fingers crossed, things are back to somewhat more normal. Uh, what's in store for AWS outposts. >>Yeah. I mean, we're going to deliver on what we announced here at reinvent, which has the new small form factor outposts. And I think what we're going to continue to do is listen to customers. We develop outposts from the very beginning because customer said, could, could you deploy outposts in our, in our data center or, sorry, can you deploy AWS? And our data center didn't have a name back then. And so that's really the hallmark of AWS. You know, somewhere around 90% of our roadmaps are based on what customers tell us they want. And the other 10% is when we kind of look around the corner and hopefully delight people with something they didn't even know they needed. And I really hope for my team and that that's what 2021 and 2022 brings is more countries, more services, more value, more compliance, certifications, you know, all the things that people tell us they want. We're going to keep turning the crank as hard as we can. And delivering that as quickly as possible >>With the trademark Amazon customer delight. Yes, absolutely. Excellent. Well, Joshua, Virgin, thank you so much for coming on the cube. It was a pleasure having you. >>It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. >>I'm Rebecca Knight for more of the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 stay tuned.

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Global Partner Network >>Right. Welcome, everyone to the Cube. Live covering aws reinvent 2020. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Today we're joined by Joshua Virgin. He is the general manager at AWS Outpost. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Joshua, >>thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>Well, it's great to have you So tell our viewers a little bit about aws out AWS Outpost. >>Sure, it's the one of my favorite subjects, obviously. So outpost is a service from AWS that allows you to use the same tools technology ap ice. You know, programming interfaces that you do in the cloud, but install this and run it on your own premises or in a co location facility. So it really extends the reach of A W S two far more locations than you could otherwise use it. >>So what are some of the advancements this year? >>It's been an amazingly you know, busy year, even under unprecedented kind of circumstances, where we've tried to turn the crank really hard and deliver value for our customers. We increase the number of countries you could order outposts in up to 51 countries. You can now connect outpost all 22 AWS regions and or govcloud regions everything outside of China. On we delivered 15 new services or incremental features, including S three on outpost, which was the top thing that customers asked for. But also our application load balancer, elastic cash are relational database service RDS. You know, there's probably more that I'm missing here, but, you know, and we're definitely not slowing down in that regard. 2021 will probably be an even bigger year. >>So tell us a little bit about the response from customers since the launch of a W s outpost last year. What are you hearing? >>Yeah, I mean, we're hearing a lot. I think we've been pleasantly surprised by the breadth and the depth of the customer use cases. One >>of the >>biggest things we heard from people was, you know, the the outposts are great, but it's a it's a full rack of compute or many racks of compute in some cases in storage, you know, their locations that people wanted to put it in that were smaller where their space constrained. Maybe a restaurant or a factory floor or ah, you know, small medical facility. You know, a telco like a cell site. And and so what we did, based on that is something that we actually just announced and Andy's keynote just a few days ago here, which is the new small form factor outposts that are one you and to you size servers. It's about the size of one or two pizza boxes stacked on top of each other. So that's even going to make outposts available toe even Mawr use cases. Uh, you know, early on we kind of said to ourselves that it's important to kind of give people that consistent experience wherever they might need the compute and storage and the other services. And so I've been I've been really pleasantly surprised, as I mentioned earlier by how many people have talked to us. We have customers like Philips Healthcare. They are. They're bringing their medical imaging solution toe outposts, and it allows them to kind of modernize the way they deliver services, the hospitals and medical research centers around the world, something that really wouldn't be possible without having A W s everywhere, >>and that is much, much needed today. Um, tell us a little bit about Maura. About this year in particular. You said it yourself at the beginning of our conversation. This is an unprecedented year for so many different reasons. How has the cove in 19 pandemic affected AWS outpost and how your team interacts with customers and get your job done? >>Yeah, we I >>think we have >>some unique, you know, challenges in that regard. Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, a W s outposts are installed in a co location, facility or on a customer's own premises in a data center. You know, other things like that. So obviously we have to get our technicians out there toe, roll them in and hook them up to your network and, you know, to get them powered up. So that means that we are complying with, uh, covert restrictions. And as I mentioned 51 different countries. So there was even an install earlier this year at a mining location, you know, far outside the U. S. Where we had to get technicians working with, uh, local technicians from the customer following Kobe guidelines wearing protective gear and actually installing the outpost. You know, using kind of satellite connectivity and phones, toe phone home and talk to us during the installation, of course, because it's not hooked up yet. So those were just kind of examples of the lengths to which will go to make sure that, of course, we're safe. The customers were safe, but that they can kind of continue to modernize their application portfolio and get benefits from the outpost. >>And what are you hearing from clients and customers in terms of how they're thinking about their technology needs now and in the coming year? >>Yeah, that's a That's a great question. I mean, it really varies by market segment. So you have customers like Cisco and Ericsson and Telefonica. They're gonna be using Outpost Thio kind of run their five g packet core technology. It it's got to be run at the edge right there. Telcos. They need to minimize Leighton, see single digit milliseconds, or you might have a customer like Lockheed Martin, And what they've told us is they have projects that are subject to government contracts and regulations. And not only do they have, of course, compliance regimes like Fed ramp that they need to be aware of. But there's data residency requirements. So whether they're deploying in the United States or, you know, with our allies all around the world, the compute in the storage that they need to run in specific locations. So now outposts are going to be a key advancement and kind of a key differentiator for them in how they deliver services to their customers and still meet those data residency or compliance requirements. >>Joshua, tell our viewers more about AWS Outpost ready? >>Oh, that zits. Another thing. I'm really glad you mentioned. So the Outpost Ready program. These are solutions from our a Pienaar Amazon AWS partner Network that are validated in following our best practices on AWS outposts. They're certified toe work and you know they're generally available to customers. And so it's a program where, you know, I SVs and saz providers can ensure that the technology that they provide this third party technology is going to work in the outpost environment. And and there's there's something about outpost that I think makes this, uh, differentiator and uniquely valuable. When I mentioned kind of that consistent hybrid experience. When you think about how outposts are deployed, you know, in a customer's data center, Mike. Maybe alongside other technology they're already using. And so customers say, Look, these AWS services are great, but I already use a variety of, you know, third party technology, maybe from Veritas or Trend Micro Palo Alto Networks. Con vault sigh since pager duty Pure storage Netapp. You know, the list is actually pretty extensive of what people are already using. And so they said, you know, I do plan on using AWS services, but I also don't want to give up. You know what what my team is already familiar with, So can you make sure that's gonna work for me, whether I'm using it in the region or on the AWS outposts? And so the interest and kind of demand for this both from customers and the enthusiasm from the partners has been off the charts. We started the program in just September, which is not that long ago, and we had 32 partners, and as of today we have an additional, uh, additional 25 partners, right? It's 57 partners, total 64 certified solutions so that that's a lot of momentum in just kind of, ah, short amount of time. And I'm really happy that we can deliver that to the customers >>so it doesn't. It's already showing tremendous momentum. How do you think about it in terms of the primary benefits that it gives to customers and how it helps customers and partners? >>Yeah, I think, you know, in order to qualify, the solution has to be tested and validated upon against a bunch of criteria that we have very specific technical criteria, security requirements operational and you know, they're they're supported for customers with clear deployment guidelines. So you know, the customers can kind of think of this as a guarantee that we're not just saying maybe this could work, but but this will work. If you're already using it, it's going to continue to work in a way that's familiar to you and and again, that's important. That consistent hybrid experience, whether you're using a solution from a third party or from AWS, whether you're using it in the region or on a local zone or in a wavelength zone, some of our other, you know, kind of innovative infrastructure deployments or using it on outpost, no matter where you're using it, it has to work the same way. And so this is something that customers have said. I want to be able to get up and running quickly. We had a customer riot games. They're the maker of league of Legends. But also when they were launching their new game, Valerie Int, in June of 2020 they deployed outpost in four different locations to kind of ensure a level playing field in terms of latency. What they told us, you know, very much like this service ready program is they were able to get up and running in just a matter of days once the outpost was deployed. And it's because we gave them those same a p I s that same tooling. So I think that's really important for people. And, you know, I hope we can continue to deliver on that promise. >>So the closest out here, I want you to look into your crystal ball and think ahead 12 and 24 months when you know, fingers crossed things are back to somewhat more normal. What? What's in store for AWS Outpost? >>Yeah, I mean, we're going to deliver on what we announced here at reinvent, which is the new small form factor outposts on. I think what we're going to continue to do is listen to customers. We developed outpost from the very beginning because customers said Could could you deploy outposts in our in our data center or Sorry, can you deploy eight of us? And our data center didn't have a name back then. And so that's really the hallmark of AWS, you know, somewhere around 90% of our road maps or based on what customers tell us they want, then the other 10% is when we kind of look around the corner and hopefully delight people with something they didn't even know they needed. And I really hope for my team. And that that's what 2021 2022 brings is, you know, more countries, more services, more value, more compliance certifications. You know, all the things that people tell us they want. We're going to keep turning the crank as hard as we can and delivering that as quickly as possible >>with the trademark Amazon customer delight. >>Yes, absolutely >>excellent. Well, Joshua Virgin. Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It was a pleasure having you. >>That was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. >>I'm Rebecca night for more of the cubes. Coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Stay tuned. >>Yeah.

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE live coverage here in Las Vegas for the first annual blockchain security conference. The brightest minds in the industry coming together, it's called HoshoCon, and it's presented by, and sponsored by Hosho. But it's not their event, it's an industry event. And we're here with the co-founder and president, Hartej Sawhney, who is theCUBE alumni. Great to see you. You guys are doing a great event. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, it's always good to see you, and I'm so glad theCUBE is here at HoshoCon. >> So you've talked with us many times, but recently in Toronto about this event. This is not your company's event. You guys are putting it together. You're holding it because there's no other conferences that do this, but it's not just you guys. You guys are bringing the industry brains together. >> Yeah, I mean, we see ourselves as being on the intersection of cybersecurity and blockchain. And (coughs) just getting over a cold, but not a lot of conferences are out there that have a open discussion about cyber security in the blockchain industry. And hundreds of millions of dollars are stolen from exchanges. And 10% of all the money in the ICO space has been lost or stolen. And there's simply not enough platforms for this to be discussed. So, we figured we'd start the first conference that solely focuses on being a blockchain security conference. We chose not to have any ICO pitch competition. And it feels like there's more and more typical blockchain conferences out there, but it's important to be home base for anyone who wants to affiliate themselves with cyber security and the blockchain industry. >> And the depth and breadth of security is changing. We are hearing talks with, unfortunately I won't be able to attend the sessions, we're interviewing people all day, but amazing talks. How to hack an exchange, all these new surface areas. I mean, people kind of generally know they're unsecure, but this growth going on. There's new things happening. This is exposing some of the security vulnerabilities. What is the hot topics in the talk tracks here at HoshoCon? >> We have Anand Prakash, who runs a company called AppSecure. He's one of the worlds best white hat hackers. Who has hacked into the likes of Linkedin, Facebook, Google, all the top names. And to have someone walk us through today, Anand Prakash said, "Here's how you hack into a crypto "currency exchange and here's how they actually did it." And to have a white hat hacker walk us through that, it opens up our eye balls as to how easy it actually was for a Japanese exchange to loose 500 million dollars. That's no small sum of money. And this industry is only going to survive if we together as a community come together and evaluate how was it that 500 million dollars got stolen? And how can we as a community of global lovers of bitcoin make sure that this does not happen moving forward? >> On that exchange hack, 500 million dollars in Japan, was that white hat done or was that black hat? >> It was black hat. Unfortunately the money's not been given back. >> So it's not given back. So that's a half a billion dollars? >> It's half a billion dollars stolen, yeah you know. How many industries are worth just about that much? >> Yes, you could feed a couple countries. This is legit, right? Obviously it's like total, you know, wild west if you want to call it. Stage coach robberies they got the mask on. No one knows who it is. This is real, this is absolutely real. What are you guys doing as an industry? What's happening here to prevent this? What are the key, you know hygiene or social, anti-social engineering? What are the key things that are going on that are solving this problem? >> So, every exchange needs to value security and get a penetration test. Every company needs to make sure that somebody at their company is in charge of their in house security practices. Most companies when you ask them, "Who's in charge of security?" They point their finger at the CTO. The CTO is in charge of architecting the software. You need to have somebody full time, in house taking care of the security. Ideally a CISO and if you can afford it, pay someone five to ten thousand dollars a month as a consultant to come in for a couple of months and take care of your in house security. These are basic things that, you know, surprisingly most bitcoin exchanges often times when they're hacked, they're hacked by a basic phishing attack. That one of your employees opened up the wrong email. They opened up a PDF and the hacker gained access to your computer and is now monitoring your keyboard strokes and stole millions of dollars. Or the exchange didn't get an actual penetration test of their exchange. Or exchanges are listing contracts that have not gone through a professional smart contract audit. These things are now, also we're seeing them service in regulation with central governments. And it seems that all the smaller island nations are spearheading the way in terms of writing clarity on regulation. In Malta, Bermuda, Gibraltar, all of them are trying to spearhead the way. I'm much more excited, to be honest, about some of the larger nations bringing clarity on regulation in the next two to three years. We all can't just move to a small island off the coast of Italy that is infamous for actually laundering money in the gaming space. Yes, now they're trying to bring clean clarity doing KYC and AML in Malta and write a actual regulation about security. And if you're domiciled in Malta and you're a exchange then you can only list a token that's been audited. It's wonderful but at the end of the day Malta is also a part of the EU and if the EU changes their mind, things can change Malta. I just feel like it shows the immaturity of the space. If very legitimate companies are all going to flee to small countries like Malta or to islands like Bermuda. Good on those island nations for being so pragmatic and forward thinking and for bringing legal clarity. I mean if I was in an exchange today, arguably yes you have to go to Malta if you want clarity on regulation and you don't want to be in the United States. Right now, Malta is your choice. I'm just personally a little bit much more excited about the next three years where, I make a joke to my co-founder and I say, "The suits are coming." That we look around these conferences and you don't see that many suits but the fortunate 500, many of them are either writing private blockchains, they're evaluating how they're going to leverage blockchain technology in their major businesses and they're going to leverage decentralized applications and tokenization for already running products that have millions of customers, that are already profitable and then when they get tokenized they're going to be up and running right away. So the next two to three years are going to be very interesting. From Hosho's perspective we've taken a big turn towards catering towards more publicly traded large sophisticated companies. We've partnered up with Telefonica. Telefonica is a Fortune 200 company. Its wonderful to be able to leverage that kind of a brand. To deal with major world wide entities that are publicly traded come to Telefonica and evaluate how they can leverage blockchain technology and get one bundled security package that includes Hosho, Rivets, and Telefonica. >> Yeah the Rivets solution is interesting. It's a hardware based solution. So the subscriber of the phone becomes the entity. It's really interesting and I think this points to new paradigms of security, which I want to get to in a second but I want to just unpack what you said about the small country, big country dynamic. Great for the small countries to be opportunistic. To be creative and capture this opportunity. But people want stability. They want clarity on regulations, yes, but also standards, technical standards. >> We can't all just move to the small country of Malta. >> Yeah I'll be in a plane the whole time. >> It just doesn't work. >> Yeah and by the way the game changes too. Whats the implications of say, Malta decides one day, "You know what?" "We're getting out, we're changing things." A company would have to move their domicile again. So it's a moving train, you don't know what you're going to get. It might be stable now but it's not a scalable opportunity. >> Yeah, people have families and they want to stay where they are. Simple as that. We have large countries that have a strong crypto community that's growing and let's see how they pan out. Singapore seems like a likely next candidate. You have Korea. I would argue to say that the worlds first decentralized application that will be massively adopted will be in Korea. Korea is going to be the place where we have the worlds first decentralized application launched with mass adoption, a paradigm shift. The kind of shift where you forgot what it was like before you used Gmail regularly. >> Yeah, total, total infrastructure change. Alright so I got to ask you the hallway conversation question. Obviously you're very popular here. It's you event, you're sponsoring with the community. I see you talking to a lot of people at the VIP dinner last night. What are some of the hallway conversations that you're having? A lot of interesting people here from diverse backgrounds, in security, technology, some policy, some regulatory, some business, and legal, but really bright minds. What's the hallway conversation like? What are you talking about? >> We're talking about how all of us are going to survive crypto winter that we just entered. We've entered a time where fund raising has become extremely difficult. A lot of funds are simply bleeding. They lost a lot of money and they're not cutting checks right now. So the companies that are going to survive and stick around through this crypto winter, they're making a strong statement and they're going to be the ones that are going to stick around. And a lot of them are here at this conference at HoshoCon. And it amazing to have discussions to see what are the problems that fellow founders are facing? Building companies that will survive this crypto winter. Another thing has been just what are we going to do as a community to self-regulate? Are we going to create self-regulatory organizations? Are we going to let another Moody's get created? What is our viewpoint on regulation in the space overall, right? We love Max Keiser. His viewpoint on regulation is very extreme where he believes bitcoin is a self-regulatory technology. And on the other hand we have people saying, "No, we need to quickly move to regulate the space. "Work with central banks, work with central governments, "and write out the regulations." That's been lot of the hallway conversation. And a lot of other ones that have been really intriguing to me has been people talking about what are things that they have done within their company to protect their employees. Because the reality is in the crypto currency space every single employee of a major company in this industry is a target by naturally being in this industry. And this includes you. We are all naturally targets. And it's not about how much bitcoin you have maybe its about how much bitcoin someone thinks you have. And all of a sudden you become a target. And we need to think about things like our physical security. So some of the more interesting conversations I've been having with people have been around, along the lines of what are you doing to protect you and your family in regards to your physical security? On top of that your online presences. >> So ransoms, people getting kidnapped and or extorted. These kinds of physical pressures? >> Yeah, like ShapeShift has a lot of great stories. Michael Perklin from, the CIS of ShapeShift is here. You should totally talk to him and get him on theCUBE. Michael Perklin has a long list of war stories that ShapeShift has been through. Some of them they went through before he was actually hired as a CISO. And ShapeShift would've also not been hacked of millions of dollars if they had brought on a CISO earlier such as Michael Perklin. I believe they had hired him as a consultant. Did not renew the contract, got hacked, and brought him on as CISO. And he was like, "If you had continued working with me "I would of, this would of been avoided." And that's really-- >> It's foolish. >> One other thing I've seen with ShapeShift actually is online you'll notice that all the employees of ShapeShift, their last names are not online. So on the website it says, their chief marketing officers name is Emily, it says "Emily Shape Shift". And their badges at conferences also says "Emily Shape Shift". These are interesting things to learn from other companies that this is what you're doing to protect your employees from them being hacked. It's very interesting for us to all exchange notes-- >> Shoot I'm out there, (mumbles) everywhere pretty much online. >> Well I'm out there as well. We just got to protect ourselves and we got to think about things like our physical security. People feel uncomfortable thinking about their physical security. They think that, "Oh no we're in America, "we'll just call the cops." What about when we travel? What about when you and I are in a village in Thailand hanging out? We are microorganisms and when microorganisms are hungry they'll do what ever it takes to eat. So if they smell abundance, you and I are in trouble. >> Yeah, we got to be careful. And this is something that you really got to worry about because there's been tons of war stories. Now ultimately when you get back down to the wallet, it's one of the things we've been talking a lot this morning on, with Rivets, was on about the notion of how hard it is for mainstream to use tokens. Where's my private key? This has always been the crypto problem, even with private key encryption. >> Yeah, or should we build a multi-sig wallet to store your tokens in a secure manner? People have been asking us for a long time, Crypto funds, ICO's, "How do we store our tokens!" And our problem was that A, we've either hacked into the other wallets that are available and we saw that they're insecure or the UI and UX completely sucks. So we said lets build our own and so we built our own. >> Are you open sourcing that, is that-- >> No, we're going to be, this is going to be a unique multi-sig wallet that we release, it's not. You're open sourcing the actual code of the wallet or else it's not going to be considered legitimate. >> Yeah, it's good, it's a goldmine. >> It's a profitable venture. >> And that's going to be 100% bullet proof? >> It's going to be very secure. >> Let's talk about Meadow Suite. >> So, we came to a point where our engineers needed better tooling to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts. And what is available, Truffle, is weak and slow. And so we built Meadow Suite. We built in a long list of tools and a full suite of tooling that we believe are going to be used by a long list of people that are building on the Ethereum blockchain. Including a lot of our competitors. And so we've open sourced it and we're excited for people to check out Meadow Suite. It's on GitHub and our engineers have put a lot of time and effort into it. We even have our own logo for it. >> And the goal is to automate things, make it easier? What's the main, main initial goals? >> I would say, long story short, is to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts and to build tooling around that. And to effectively build and find vulnerabilities in smart contracts. >> So they build it into their development process natively? >> Correct. >> Alright Hartej great to have you on and hey congratulations for putting on this event. I know we've talked about >> Awesome to be here. it in the past, it actually happened. It's the first inaugural one. >> We had this vision and I'm glad it came through. We had a great global events team. Gabriel Shepherd, and Ryan Shewchuk, and Brad Horspool, and Michelle Yon. And like they've put on conference's the size of Southwest by Southwest. And our vision is, look we're not in the events business. And we're a cyber security business at the end of the day. But we found it necessary that there has to be a conference where there's a platform for people to talk about cyber security intersecting with the blockchain industry. There's got to be a platform for someone to get on stage and say, "Hey here's lessons that "we learned from getting hacked" And if this industry is going to survive, this topic needs to survive. And the brands that want to affiliate themselves with blockchain security and that want to be apart of the discussion. This will be a go to conference every single year. We're going to keep doing it and I look forward to having you at every single one, coming. >> It's been great. And you know what's key is having reputable people working together in a community, building an open community, sharing data, sharing best practices, and having candid conversations. >> Yep, it's the only way to get someone as epic as Andreas Antonopoulos to your conference. I mean my co-founder and I have been looking up to Andreas for so long. Watching videos of Andreas. Watching videos of Max Keiser, Stacy Herbert. To have them here is really just truly remarkable and I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm touched. I'm touched to have you here. I miss David Vellante, I wish he was here. >> He's in San Francisco, he says hi. He was going to fly in tonight but-- >> He texted me. >> He did, okay. >> Hartej it's great to see you. >> Great to see you >> Congratulations. as well. thank you. >> Great event. Okay we're here live with theCUBe coverage for HoshoCon 2018, the first inaugural security conference on blockchain. Industry leaders coming together. The brilliant, bright minds of the industry working out the solutions, trying to pedal faster. Better security, check it out HoshoCon.com. I'm John Furrier stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Over and welcome back to our live coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. The first inaugural conference on security in the blockchain security is obviously not new to the blockchain It's number one concern. Crypto is crypto, decentralized networks is what people want. Security is the only thing that matters, if you haven't been hacked, then you should know we're being hacked. This is theCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier with Steven Sprague CEO of Rivetz, who's a security and an entrepreneur I've known for almost 20 years now he has been at this all through multiple ways of innovation, multiple security paradigm stacks, not new the problem, great time for you, Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I've known you and knowing your father as well for almost 25 plus years, you have been at this in one form or another with security and the waves are different, I mean there's different the web wave there's different architectures I mean people call it internet 3.0 whatever they're just different evolutionary steps, now is the killer time because we're seeing the most action. You got web, internet, mobile, global, new economics, new money the stakes are higher it's not not just like some isolated box, you got cloud. This is the time to harvest the work you've been doing, give us an overview. >> Absolutely you know I've been at this my whole career, I started down this path in 1990. Doing digital rights management micro transactions and video games and was part of the formation that Trusted Computing group in the 2000s and helped shipped 1.4 billion PCs with hardware security on the motherboard of the PC that still out there today. Started with started Rivets in 2013 to really go after, how do we enable the hardware security and mobile devices? And just about instantaneously ran into the blockchain and at my first Bitcoin conference, which was the Miami Bitcoin conference about a half an hour into it, it dawned on me two things. One, we were talking a lot about crypto but nobody was talking about cybersecurity and there's a gap between those just because we talk crypto all the time doesn't mean that we know what we're doing in cyber and the other one that was true as, oh my God, I've been looking for this for the last 10 years, which is how do we enable the user to own their own keys? And I don't mean like single keys on each device. I mean, the root key that controls all the other keys on all their devices. This is a super interesting space, we're just the very beginning of it in some ways the Bitcoin side the sort of value or or money side is the demo, the real opportunity is, this is the infrastructure that's going to replace how we do normal enterprise computing. >> Yeah. >> And the end of PC computing, we're about to have a new paradigm, blockchain-- >> I agree with you as an infrastructure shift over because the efficiencies that are gained and the disruption around what's not efficient, whether it's venture capital or infrastructure, IoT, whatever the supply chain or the decentralized way is the way to make it efficient, so it's an opportunity. Every entrepreneur that I know that is licking their chops going, wow, I can come in here and and create value. The mainstream adoptions around this complexity around use to your point, and then the fear of being hacked the cybersecurity piece whether it's for money, or a a hostile actor. >> But think of it in a different way. Security, nobody cares about security, nobody buys security, nobody wants security, security is UI. So if I asked you what your favorite multi factor authentication experience, you think like fingerprints and all this kind of stuff, it's not true, the send button is your favorite one, dial the number and push then and it just works. It works everywhere in the world works every time you've taught mom how to use it and the kids how to use it. It's simple, so why, so we would never use like, dial the number and we're going to use AI and big data to determine whether your phone is in the right condition to complete the call. And then a message is going to come up and say, would you please breathe deeply and calm down, because you're clearly agitated, I can't complete your call for you at this time. (laughing) Like, you've never used that phone, so why are we going to use that for the rest of our enterprise? >> I just sent you a pin number on your phone that you can't use before you can make the call. Again, I agree, it should be under the wire. It should be transparent security should be native, always on. >> That's right. >> And that's what you're getting at, okay. In your opinion, where are we in the progress because again, I think this connects the dots for your career, what you've worked on the itch you've been scratching in security because you have the perfect storm, you have full mobility penetration, you have commerce on top of it, and you have full global connectedness those three things alone make a-- >> And we have decentralization, so the thing that's important in blockchain is it's important remember, while the data on a chain is immutable, we know we can seal inside a little envelope a message and sign it and we write it to a chain it never changes. What we don't know is whether the data written to the chain was intended so all the information on all the blockchains is fake news. It's important to understand that we, if we take a blockchain to court try and prove something, all we can prove with the data hasn't changed. I have absolutely no idea whether your private key was written on the bathroom wall or stored in Fort Knox. And so if you try and record something on chain, your defense is always ah somebody stole my private key. Or if I'm trying to defend that you didn't do it on chain, somebody stole his private key, so actually the date on the chain is fake. It's real it was signed by a private key, but we have no knowledge to the quality of the private key and if you told the blockchain community that we got to go get your Windows log files to see whether or not your key was compromised at the time and the windows log files are the way we secure all blockchains. We're not going to get there, so the problem is-- >> That's a roadblock for sure, no doubt. >> Yeah, so the problem is that blockchains, are decentralized therefore, they're censorship proof. All of network security is censorship, therefore, blockchain is network security proof. Oops. So everything we spent in the last trillion dollars in cyber security doesn't work on blockchain Unless I run private chains, all a private chain is running inside the enterprise security while using all Juniper firewalls to secure your chain. That's not what we're talking about, We're talking about a decentralized solution. >> So match the security for pro posture for the architecture that you're working on. >> So we are going to have to do for the first time something that's crazy, we're going to have to do security commerce, which is when we form an instruction 'cause blockchains aren't authentication either, this isn't about logging into a node, getting a web page and filling out a form, no this is about sending an instruction. So, a blockchain instruction, a nuclear launch code, an e-commerce transaction, an IoT instruction like turn the lights on to 50% are all the same thing, it's an instruction based paradigm so it's not only about protecting the key but also the protection of the instruction that tells the system what to do and so in order to do that, the device that creates the instruction has to be a known device. Today we run our whole world, all our critical infrastructure, everything on unknown compute. When you turn this machine on, you didn't check to see it wasn't run by the North Koreans and you can't tell. >> Yeah, they could be in there, they probably are. >> Absolutely, more so than you would want to know. >> So what whereas the answer on this so get to the, cut to the chase here in your opinion, as the people figure out okay, we have all this great hardware that was built for a certain generation, now I'm using it as mission critical in my life, it's integrated to my lifestyle with my watch, my computer, my phone, now my in house Siri, portal, Facebook thing. >> So we need to get away from Apple's embracing of the CompuServe model, where you have a mobile phone that is a terminal, when you log into apps and your identity is based on your login to your phone. We don't actually check to see if the phone is really your phone. And we need to move to the concept of mobile, where it's a device identity network where services are delivered, not based on the username and password, but based on the identity of the device and really, ultimately, we need to get to what looks like an IoT network, which is a device identity network with messaging as the primary protocol. So secure messages sent. Fundamentally, we need to demote the importance of user authentication and promote the importance of device identity, so that I have a known device and a known condition with known controls that is producing the instructions that are sent to the chain. Ideally, you'd like in every chain, a second hash. And that second hash represents a manifest of controls that were in place, so I checked to see I was in the building, I checked to see who's still an employee, I checked to see my devices working properly, I check to see the trust infrastructure in the hardware of my devices working properly, and that gives me a hash I can write that to chain with the same immutable transaction, now I can prove that John's device in this condition with these controls wrote this transaction. >> Authentication powered the last architecture blockchain to your point about being you know, you don't know what's on the data needs to have an identity model for the signatures. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. >> For the robot. So some people like oh my god, but what if I lose my phone and the most important thing is you notice. If I steal your private keys you don't notice I still your phone like I just touch your phone. It makes you feel nervous, >> Yeah. (laughing) It's a very, but that's 100,000 years. >> I know when I leave my phone home I turn around soon as am three feet the driveway I'm like, okay, go back, get the phone. >> And so that's cyber security training it starts when you're 18 months old, when somebody gives you an important object you're not supposed to forget places like heaven forbid you remove the fuzzy rabbit from the three year old, you can lose an arm, right. So that model buying device, the good news is the trusted computing standards of the world have given us embedded hardware security in the chip sets as a standard capability in every ARM processor. Now in every Intel processor, we can turn these capabilities that have been deployed in these devices. We turn them on, provide an effective hardware based wallet for all of crypto. >> How does the hardware wallet work in your vision? Because I think most people generally and me included would say, look I love crypto but I'm busy got my four kids, two are in college, two or in high school and running around you're running around, bottom line is I got my key, my cold storage, I get keys everywhere, I forgot where I put my damn keys where's my key anyway I ended up writing and I post it. Who knows? >> I want to believe your keys are your collection of devices. So we've actually just done a recent relationship with Telefonica we showed two weeks ago, a dual Root of Trust handset, so half of your key is protected by the SIM architecture in your phone, half of your key is protected by the manufactured ARM processor in your, in your handset. So I have two separate routes of trust. I'm not trusting the carrier, I'm not trusting the manufacturer, they have to work in cooperation, the owner owns the keys, then I want to backup those keys. So why not, now that I have multiple routes of trust in my device, they can talk to my other devices, So we think of your household of devices as your key, not your single super phone. So every time I make a new wallet, you're right. You're running around, you didn't think about it, You don't want to write down 12 words, you're out at Starbucks, you shouldn't be writing the 12 words down on the surveillance camera at Starbucks. That would be a bad plan, Instead, you want your device to just communicate out to your other devices. So imagine in the future I lose my phone I can shut it off by calling my carrier and then I want to Make a new phone, maybe I've got to go like push a button in my Tesla push a button on my smart refrigerator. And my wife has to push a button or my girlfriend, or whatever the complications we all have. (laughing) And that's what allows me to recreate, not just my blockchain keys, but my Marriott keys, my car keys, my refrigerator keys, my these keys and we're going to have lots of keys for all this stuff. >> And the hardware is key in your opinion, got to have the hardware. >> Right, the reason why you have hardware is because, we can measure that the hardware hasn't changed so we can have a hardware Root of Trust, something that we know is anchored in silicon, in iron and then, or really in copper, and then from that we can build a stack that says we know this hasn't changed because if it's cast in the ground now we can build up from there each step and know that this measured environment is running properly. >> So people want be concerned, obviously Bloomberg had a story this week about China putting a mod chip on super micro boxes that's hardware. How do you talk to that, because I'm now saying, hey, I love the Root of Trust concept you guys are awesome, great job, but what about being hacked by someone else-- >> Well let's assume hacks continue on in time, I think the ultimate disinfectant in this is identity of the device, so give me a list of where 100% of those computers are. And are they in any critical systems that you have? So you're running DHS, and you've got 1.2 million servers across your network? Can you tell me 100% of the machines, that have that capability on them? Now that you know that model 45 had that. So we have an example for this VIN numbers in cars have been a great example of how we've improved the quality of cars, not that we aren't stupid humans and we build stuff that breaks or doesn't work and people die, we just want to know, that if he dies in his car that I don't want to drive the same car he drove without fixing whatever it is they're broken your car. >> So unique ID for the car, an asset. >> Yeah. And so tracking that, yep, we have it for lots of things. We don't have it for PCs, if you ask the average organization, please give me a list of the software that runs your corporation, they have no idea. >> Yeah, and the same thing with data to the GDPR thing, all these regulations, >> Right, because all, so GDPR is a great example of where now I need to prove I had controls in place in order to show that my data is properly-- >> They didn't know they had a server out there. >> I don't want to audit once a year, I want to check every time I do a transaction, was the person and employee did they have data rest in their machine, did they. So we can use the concepts of GDPR regulation to press this idea that I've provable controls at a transactional level for every instruction that's done. I want to know that I have known compute, if you had to write policy for the federal government, it's only known computers connected to sensitive networks and data. That doesn't require rocket science to understand. It's like, don't hook anonymous unknown computers you picked up out in the parking lot and tie them to the nuclear launch codes, that would be a bad plan. Like, let's start with at least machines we know and that are running software we know and that we've tested them so that we know they're running what we expect and they're working correctly, then let's use them for critical systems. So let's talk about the, and want to just finish up this segment on looking at what you're saying, which is a whole new operating model is coming really fast. The old model that's being operate is run by huge companies, Apple, Amazon, IT departments all around the world, governments, so there's going to be some resistance is going to have to be some change, that change is going to be disruptive. How do you see it playing out, you see people waking up going it's inevitable or you see a train wreck or collision. >> Now I think we have to create a transition. I spent a decade trying to create the train wreck and that didn't work very well, we shipped the technology and every PC. What we've done here is we're making it possible for you measure the integrity of a device in a mobile phone, and then you can hold keys in it. But I can apply policies or rules to those keys and those policies can talk to all of my old external systems. So I can ask all my network security stack, Where is this device, is this person an employee? Is my organization feeling good today, before I let you use the key. >> You bring program ability and state into-- >> Right, it's like you drag along the whole network security stack, and all their API controls and their SIEMs and let's hook Watson up and watch the whole network and apply that as a rule to a case. So now I can sit in Starbucks, and my device checks to see my organization's good, and then logs me into Gmail. I didn't have to tell Gmail to ask whether I was an employee, so I can have a mobile phone that says only log on if you're on the nuclear submarine and it'll work and I don't have to tell GitHub that check to see whether he's on a nuclear submarine. They just have to know that this two factor authentication is external, what's making that possible is that two factor authentication and all the services is fundamentally device registration, and as we mature that as the industry matures, those standards it provides the vehicle for all the services to incorporate a device component to the authentication strategy and then we can engage the robot to make that device smarter. >> Robot being the machine. >> Our device. >> Great to have you on, give the quick plug, what's going on Rivets real give us a quick. >> So Rivets is a fun company going after building these tools, we have a great partnership with Telefonica, we're extending it to other carriers as well. And our mission here is to bring the next billion people the blockchain by giving them a hardware based wallet for crypto, for IoT, for cloud in 100% of the mobile devices that are shipped and use the carriers as a mechanism to deliver that to us. >> You bring value that carries you also help the users make that usability peace secure. If you can pull that off, man I'd have a parade on Main Street for you. We need that. >> We desperately need this. We are so ready for our digital life to become simpler and safer for the user, And really for the services, it allows them to have more valuable data. So it's the combination of those two things, it's a win both for the consumer and for the services. >> Well, let's hope it can be a seamless transition rather than a train wreck collision. I'm John Furrier we here at talking security at Hoshocon, the inaugural blockchain secure, the first blockchain security conference am here with Steven Sprague CEO Rivets, hot, hot company in the space with many, many years experience. Time is ripe, right now the time is perfect for you. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, we're back with more after this short break. (electronic music)