(gentle music intro) >> Okay, we're back. We're live here at theCUBE and at VMworld, VMware Explore, formally VMworld. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Three days of wall to wall coverage, we've got Vittorio Viarengo, the vice president of Cross-Cloud Services at VMware. Vittorio, great to see you, and thanks for coming on theCUBE right after your keynote. I can't get that off my tongue, VMworld. 12 years of CUBE coverage. This is the first year of VMware Explore, formerly VMworld. Raghu said in his keynote, he explained the VMworld community now with multi-clouds that you're in charge of at VMworld, VMware, is now the Explore brand's going to explore the multi-cloud, that's a big part of Raghu's vision and VMware. You're driving it and you are on the stage just now. What's, what's going on? >> Yeah, what I said at my keynote note is that our customers have been the explorer of IT, new IT frontier, always challenging the status quo. And we've been, our legendary engineering team, been behind the scenes, providing them with the tools of the technology to be successful in that journey to the private cloud. And Kelsey said it. What we built was the foundation for the cloud. And now it's time to start a new journey in the multi-cloud. >> Now, one of the things that we heard today clearly was: multi-cloud's a reality. Cloud chaos, Kit Colbert was talking about that and we've been saying, you know, people are chaotic. We believe that. Andy Grove once said, "Reign in the chaos. Let chaos reign, then reign in the chaos." That's the opportunity. The complexity of cross-cloud is being solved. You guys have a vision, take us through how you see that happening. A lot of people want to see this cross-cloud abstraction happen. What's the story from your standpoint, how you see that evolving? >> I think that IT history repeats itself, right? Every starts nice and neat. "Oh, I'm going to buy a bunch of HP servers and my life is going to be good, and oh, this store." >> Spin up an EC2. >> Yeah. Eventually everything goes like this in IT because every vendor do what they do, they innovate. And so that could create complexity. And in the cloud is the complexity on steroid because you have six major cloud, all the local clouds, the cloud pro- local cloud providers, and each of these cloud brings their own way of doing management security. And I think now it's time. Every customer that I talk to, they want more simplicity. You know, how do I go fast but be able to manage the complexity? So that's where cross-cloud services- Last year, we launched a vision, with a sprinkle of software behind it, of building a set of cloud-native services that allow our customers to build, run, manage, secure, and access any application consistently across any cloud. >> Yeah, so you're a year in now, it's not like, I mean, you know, when you come together in a physical event like this, it resonates more, you got the attention. When you're watching the virtual events, you get doing a lot of different things. So it's not like you just stumbled upon this last week. Okay, so what have you learned in the last year in terms of post that launch. >> What we learned is what we have been building for the last five years, right? Because we started, we saw multi-cloud happening before anybody else, I would argue. With our announcement with AWS five, six years ago, right? And then our first journey to multi-cloud was let's bring vSphere on all the clouds. And that's a great purpose to help our customers accelerate their journey of their "legacy" application. Their application actually deliver business to the cloud. But then around two, three years ago, I think Raghu realized that to add value, we needed- customers were already in the cloud, we needed to embrace the native cloud. And that's where Tanzu came in as a way to build application. Tanzu manage, way to secure manage application. And now with Aria, we now have more differentiated software to actually manage this application across- >> Yeah, and Aria is the management plane. That's the rebrand. It's not a new product per se. It's a collection of the VMware stuff, right? Isn't it like- >> No, it's, it's a... >> It's a new product? >> There is a new innovation there because basically they, the engineering team built this graph and Raghu compared it to the graph that Google builds up around about the web. So we go out and crawl all your assets across any cloud and we'll build you this model that now allows you to see what are your assets, how you can manage them, what are the performance and all that, so. No, it's more than a brand. It's, it's a new innovation and integration of a technology that we had. >> And that's a critical component of cross-cloud. So I want to get back to what you said about Raghu and what he's been focused on. You know, I remember interviewing him in 2016 with Andy Jassy at AWS, and that helped clear up the cloud game. But even before that Raghu and I had talked, Dave, on theCUBE, I think it was like 2014? >> Yeah. >> Pat Gelson was just getting on board as the CEO of VMware. Hybrid was very much on the conversation then. Even then it was early. Hybrid was early, you guys are seeing multi-cloud early. >> It was private cloud. >> Totally give you props on that. So VMware gets total props on that, being right on that. Where are we in that journey? 'Cause super cloud, as we're talking about, you were contributing to that initiative in the open with our open source project. What is multi-cloud? Where is it in the status of the customer? I think everyone will agree, multi-cloud is an outcome that's going to happen. It's happening. Everyone has multiple clouds and they configure things differently. Where are we on the progress bar in your mind? >> I think I want to answer that question and go back to your question, which I didn't address, you know, what we are learning from customers. I think that most customers are at the very, very beginning. They're either in the denial stage, like yesterday talked to a customer, I said, "Are you multi-cloud, are you on your multi-cloud journey?" And he said, "Oh we are on-prem and a little bit of Azure." I said, "Oh really? So the bus- "Oh no, well the business unit is using AWS, right? And we are required company that is using-" I said, "Okay, so you are... that customer is in cloud first stage." >> Like you said, we've seen this movie before. It comes around, right? >> Yeah. >> Somebody's going to have to clean that up at some point. >> Yeah, I think a lot, a lot of- the majority customers are either in denial or in the cloud chaos. And some customers are pushing the envelope like SMP. SMP Global, we heard this morning. Somebody has done all the journey in the private cloud with us, and now I said, and I talked to him a few months ago, he told me, "I had to get in front of my developers. Enough of this, you know, wild west. I had to lay down the tracks and galleries for them to build multi-cloud in a way that was, give them choice, but for me, as an operator and a security person, being able to manage it and secure it." And so I think most customers are in that chaos phase right now. Very early. >> So at our Supercloud22 event, we were riffing and I was asking you about, are you going to hide the complexity, yes. But you're also going to give access to the, to the developers if they want access to the primitives. And I said to you, "It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too." And you said, "And want to lose weight." And I never followed up with you, so I want to follow up now. By "lose weight," I presume you mean be essentially that platform of choice, right? So you're going to, you're going to simplify, but you're going to give access to the developers for those primitives, if in fact they want one. And you're going to be the super cloud, my word of choice. So my question to you is why, first of all, is that correct, your "lose weight"? And why VMware? >> When I say you, you want a cake, eat it and lose weight, I, and I'm going to sound a little arrogant, it's hard to be humble when you're good. But now I work for a company, I work for a company that does that. Has done it over and over and over again. We have done stuff, I... Sometimes when I go before customers, I say, "And our technology does this." Then the customer gets on stage and I go, "Oh my God, oh my God." And then the customers say, "Yeah, plus I realize that I could also do this." So that's, you know, that's the kind of company that we are. And I think that we were so busy being successful with on-prem and that, you know, that we kind of... the cloud happened. Under our eyes. But now with the multi-cloud, I think there is opportunity for VMware to do it all over again. And we are the right company to do it for two reasons. One, we have the right DNA. We have those engineers that know how to make stuff that was not designed to work together work together and the right partnership because everybody partners with us. >> But, you know, a lot of companies like, oh, they missed cloud, they missed mobile. They missed that, whatever it was. VMware was very much aware of this. You made an effort to do kind of your own cloud initiative, backed off from- and everybody was like, this is a disaster waiting to happen and of course it was. And so then you realize that, you learn from your mistakes, and then you embraced the AWS deal. And that changed everything, it changed... It cleared it up for your customers. I'm not hearing anybody saying that the cross-cloud services strategy, what we call multi, uh, super cloud is wrong. Nobody's saying that's like a failed, you know, strategy. Now the execution obviously is very important. So that's why I'm saying it's different this time around. It's not like you don't have your pulse on it. I mean, you tried before, okay, the strategy wasn't right, it backfired, okay, and then you embraced it. But now people are generally in agreement that there's either a problem or there's going to be a problem. And so you kind of just addressed why VMware, because you've always been in the catbird seat to solve those problems. >> But it is a testament to the pragmatism of the company. Right? You try- In technology, you cannot always get it right, right? When you don't get it right, say, "Okay, that didn't work. What is the next?" And I think now we're onto something. It's a very ambitious vision for sure. But I think if you look at the companies out there that have the muscles and the DNA and the resources to do it, I think VMware is one. >> One of the risks to the success, what's been, you know you watch the Twitter chatter is, "Oh, can VMware actually attract the developers?" John chimed in and said, >> Yeah. >> It's not just the devs. I mean, just devs. But also when you think of DevOps, the ops, right? When you think about securing and having that consistent platform. So when you think about the critical factors for you to execute, you have to have that pass platform, no question. Well, how do you think about, okay, where are the gaps that we really have to get right? >> I think that for us to go and get the developers on board, it's too late. And it's too late for most companies. Developers go with the open source, they go with the path of least resistance. So our way into that, and as Kelsey Hightower said, building new application, more applications, is a team sport. And part of that team is the Ops team. And there we have an entry, I think. Because that's what- >> I think it possible. I think you, I think you're hitting it. And my dev comment, by the way, I've been kind of snarky on Twitter about this, but I say, "Oh, Dev's got it easy. They're sitting in the beach with sunglasses on, you know, having focaccia. >> Doing whatever they want. >> Happy doing whatever they want. No, it's better life for the developer now. Open source is the software industry, that's going great. Shift left in CI/CD pipeline. Developers are faster than ever, they're innovating. It's all self-service, it's all DevOps. It's looking good for the developers right now. And that's why everyone's focused on that. They're driving the change. The Ops team, that was traditional IT Ops, is now DevOps with developers. So the seed change of data and security, which is core, we're hearing a lot of those. And if you look at all the big successes, Snowflake, Databricks, MinIO, who was on earlier with the S3 cloud storage anywhere, this is the new connective tissue that VMware can connect to and extend the operational platform of IT and connect developers. You don't need to win them all over. You just connect to them. >> You just have to embrace the tools that they're using. >> Exactly. >> You just got to connect to them. >> You know, you bring up an interesting point. Snowflake has to win the developers, 'cause they're basically saying, "Hey, we're building an application development platform on top of our proprietary system." You're not saying that. You're saying we're embracing the open source tools that developers are using, so use them. >> Well, we gave it a single pane of glass to manage your application everywhere. And going back to your point about not hiding the underlying primitives, we manage that application, right? That application could be moving around, but nobody prevents that application to use that API underneath. I mean, that's, that can always do that. >> Right, right. >> And, and one of the reason why we had Kelsey Hightower and my keynote and the main keynote was that I think he shows that the template, the blueprint for our customers, our operators, if you want to have- even propel your career forward, look at what he did, right? VI admin, going up the stack storage and everything else, and then eventually embrace Kubernetes, became an expert. Really took the time to understand how modern application were- are built. And now he's a luminary in the industry. So we don't have, all have to become luminary, but you can- our customers right here, doing the labs upstairs, they can propel the career forward in this. >> So summarize what you guys are announcing around cross cloud-services. Obviously Aria, another version, 1.3 of Tanzu. Lay out the sort of news. >> Yeah, so we- With Tanzu, we have one step forward with our developer experience so that, speaking of meeting where they are, with application templates, with ability to plug into their idea of choice. So a lot of innovation there. Then on the IR side, I think that's the name of the game in multi-cloud, is having that object model allows you to manage anything across anything. And then, we talk about cross-cloud services being a vision last year, I, when I launched it, I thought security and networking up there as a cloud, but it was still down here as ploy technology. And now with NSX, the latest version, we brought that control plane in the cloud as a cloud native cross-cloud service. So, lot of meat around the three pillars, development, the management, and security. >> And then the complementary component of vSphere 8 and vSAN 8 and the whole DPU thing, 'cause that's, 'cause that's cloud, right? I mean, we saw what AWS did with Nitro. >> Yeah. >> Five, seven years ago. >> That's the consumption model cloud. >> That's the future of computing architecture. >> And the licensing model underneath. >> Oh yeah, explain that. Right, the universal licensing model. >> Yeah, so basically what we did when we launch cloud universal was, okay, you can buy our software using credit that you have on AWS. And I said, okay, that's kind of hybrid cloud, it's not multi-cloud, right? But then we brought in Google and now the latest was Microsoft. Now you can buy our software for credits and investment that our customers already have with these great partners of ours and use it to consume as a subscription. >> So that kind of changes your go-to-market and you're not just chasing an ELA renewal now. You're sort of thinking, you're probably talking to different people within the organizations as well, right? So if I can use credits for whatever, Google, for Azure, for on-prem, for AWS, right? Those are different factions necessarily in the organization. >> So not just the technology's multi-cloud, but also the consumption model is truly multi-cloud. >> Okay, Vittorio, what's next? What's the game plan? What do you have going on? It's getting good traction here again, like Dave said, no one's poo-pooing cross-cloud services. It is kind of a timing market forces. We were just talking before you came on. Oh, customers don't- may not think they have a problem, whether they're the frog boiling water or not, they will have the problem coming up or they don't think they have a problem, but they have chaos reigning. So what's next? What are you doing? Is it going to be new tech, new market? What is the plan? >> So I think for, if I take my bombastic kind of marketing side of me hat off and I look at the technology, I think the customers in these scales wants to be told what to do. And so I think what we need to do going forward is articulate these cross-cloud services use cases. Like okay, what does mean to have an application that uses a service over here, a service over there, and then show the value of getting this component from one company? Because cross-cloud services at your event, how many vendors were there? 20? 30? >> Yeah. >> So the market is there. I mean, these are all revenue-generating companies, right, but they provide a piece of the puzzle. Our ambition is to provide a platform approach. And so we need to articulate better, what are the advantages of getting these components management, security, from- >> And Kit, Kit was saying, it's a hybrid kind of scenario. I was kind of saying, oh, putting my little business school scenario hat on, oh yeah, you go hardcore competitive, best product wins, kill or be killed, compete and win. Or you go open and you create a keiretsu, create a consortium, and get support, standardize or defacto standardize a bunch of it, and then let everyone monetize or participate. >> Yeah, we cannot do it alone. >> What's the approach? What's the approach you guys want to take? >> So I think whatever possible, first of all, we're not going to do it alone. Right, so the ecosystem is going to play a part and if the ecosystem can come together around the consortium or a standard that makes sense for customers? Absolutely. >> Well, and you say, nobody's poo-pooing it, and I stand by that. But they are saying, and I think it is true, it's hard, right? It's a very challenging, ambitious goal that you have. But yeah, you've got a track record of- >> I mean the old playbook, >> Exactly! >> The old playbooks are out. I mean, I always say, the old kill and be highly competitive strategy. Proprietary is dead. And then if you look at the old way of winning was, okay, you know, we're going to lock customers in- >> What do you mean proprietary is dead? Proprietary's not dead. >> No, I mean like, I'm talking- Okay, I'm talking about how people sell. Enterprise companies love to create, simplify, create value with chaos like okay, complexity with more complexity. So that's over, you think that's how people are marketing? >> No, no, it's true. But I mean, we see a lot of proprietary out there. >> Like what? >> It's still happening. Snowflake. (laughing) >> Tell that to the entire open store software industry. >> Right, well, but that's not your play. I mean, you have to have some kind of proprietary advantage. >> The enterprise playbook used to be solve complexity with complexity, lock the customers in. Cloud changed all that with open. You're a seasoned marketer, you're also an executive. You have an interesting new wave. How do you market to the enterprise in this new open way? How do you win? >> For us, I think we have that relationship with the C-level and we have delivered for them over and over again. So our challenge from a marketing perspective is to educate these executives about all that. And the fact that we didn't have this user conference in person didn't help, right? And then show that value to the operator so that they can help us just like we did in the past. I mean, our sales motion in the past was we made these people- I told them today, you were the heroes. When you virtualized, when you brought down 1000 servers to 80, you were the hero, right? So we need to empower them with the technology and the know-how to be heroes again in multi-cloud. And I think the business will take care of itself. >> Okay final question from me, and Dave might have another one of his, everybody wanted to know this year at VMworld, VMware Explore, which is the new name, what would it look like? What would the vibe be? Would people show up? Would it be vibrant? Would cross-cloud hunt? Would super cloud be relevant? I got to say looking at the floor last night, looking at the keynotes, looking at the perspective, it seems to look like, oh, people are on board. What is your take on this? You've been talking to customers, you're talking to people in the hallways. You've been brief talking to all the analysts. What is the vibe about this year's Explore? >> I think, you've been covering us for a long time, this is a religious following we have. And we don't take it for granted. I told the audience today, this to us is a family reunion and we couldn't be, so we got a sense of like, that's what I feels like the family is back together. >> And there's a wave coming too. It's not like business is dying. It's like a whole 'nother. Another wave is coming. >> It's funny you mention about the heroes. 'Cause I go back, I don't really have my last question, but it's just the last thought is, I remember the first time I saw a demo of VMware and I went, "Holy crap, wow. This is totally game changing." I was blown away. Right, like you said, 80 servers down to just a couple of handfuls. This is going to change everything. And that's where it all started. You know, I mean, I know it started in workstations, but that's when it really became transformational. >> Yeah, so I think we have an opportunity to do it over again with the family that is here today, of which you guys consider family as well. >> All right, favorite part of the keynote and then we'll wrap up. What was your favorite part of the keynote today? >> I think the excitement from the developer people that were up there. Kelsey- >> The guy who came after Kelsey, what was his name? I didn't catch it, but he was really good. >> Yeah, I mean, it's, what it's all about, right? People that are passionate about solving hard problems and then cannot wait to share it with the community, with the family. >> Yeah. I love the one line, "You kids have it easy today. We walk to school barefoot in the snow back in the day." >> Uphill, both ways. >> Broke the ice to wash our face. >> Vittorio, great to see you, great friend of theCUBE, CUBE alumni, vice president of cross-cloud serves at VMware. A critical new area that's harvesting the fruits coming off the tree as VMware invested in cloud native many years ago. It's all coming to the market, let's see how it develops. Congratulations, good luck, and we'll be back with more coverage here at VMware Explore. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us after the short break. (gentle music)

>>Hi, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin and pleased to welcome back. One of our cube alumni, Christian rowdy, the VP of technology strategy at Citrix Christian. Welcome back to the program. >>Thank you, Lisa. And thanks for having me. Great to see you again, and we'll be virtually at this time. >>Great to see you too. It's been a couple of years and quite a few things have changed since we got to sit down at synergy a couple of years together together. Citrix has an exciting new announcement. Let's unpack that. Talk me to me about what you're announcing and what it's going to deliver. >>Sure. You know, as you said, actually, I can't believe it's been a couple of years since we last saw each other. And I think, you know, time's kind of just disappeared within the pandemic. So it actually, as a result of some of those things that we've seen, you know, people get so tired of being stuck in the same place and tired of being on this constant stream of video. And one of the things that we wanted to do was, was actually a vital Citrix launch part, which is kind of our new announcement series that will be delivered via LinkedIn live. But he's really intended to be kind of a short burst approach to providing updates to some of them really important things that we're working on at Citrix. So, uh, hopefully, uh, people would love to say a reason and get some rich information from them. >>And there's going to be a series of three launchpad programs. Now we've seen so much change since the rapid pivot to work from home. Now this worked from anywhere hybrid environment. We've seen the, the massive adoption of cloud and SAS. We've also seen the threat landscape, the attack surface, just expand and expand. Talk to me about why Citrix is doing the launch pad series and then we'll go through each of the three series. >>Yeah, absolutely. So maybe I think just to set a little bit of context, you know, we, we were working on some pretty interesting things, uh, pre pandemic, you know, uh, as a result of the, kind of the, the evolution of Citrix as an organization, but perhaps more importantly, the journey that our customers were on globally, you know, every customer that we had in, in any industry across the world, we're all at various stages of their own digital transformation. And I think what the pandemic has done apart from all the really bad things, actually, if you look at it as a, perhaps one gleaming bit of light in the whole thing was that we've given organizations, whether we realize it or not the opportunity to try this huge remote work experiment. And I think what it has done above anything else has shown that remote work actually works. >>And so as a result of that, what we've seen coming out of the pandemic is that organizations are really going to use that as a springboard. So implement some new strategies, new technologies, and really drive the next generation of that business. So with one eye on that, I think if you were to categorize the three big things that we're looking at from a Citrix perspective, it's really about how to help, we'll continue to help our customers with that accelerated it modernization to really help them understand what it takes to have secure, flexible work in this new post pandemic world. And then also to think about productivity, what does productivity mean in a world of ever more distributed teams? And so the events that we're talking about and specifically the cloud one, we'll focus on some of the new offerings from Citrix, some of the new technologies and talk about the trends that we've seen within our customers. >>So, you know, one of the big things that Citrix has always been very proud of is our market leading position in virtual application and virtual desktop delivery. And even that itself has now begun to emerge into what we call desktop as a service. And there's a ton of new innovations that we've been working on in that space as well. But also if you think about what's happening in cloud, as you talked about, you know, the evolution of applications being from traditional on premises, wills to SAS applications, what we're also seeing is things like the network services that use to support those applications when they looked slightly different, which from a deployment perspective, and now all moving to cloud services, the security that you alluded to in terms of how complicated that is, but how important it is for it, organizations, those services also moving to cloud as the applications begin to look very differently in the future. So extremely excited about the cloud launch. Patino, we're going to talk a lot about those things that we're doing both in the public cloud, in the hybrid cloud. And I think it will resonate well with customers around the world. >>I think it will as well. And you mentioned there are glimmers of hope that we've seen in the last 18 months. And one of the things that this has proved is that work from home can be productive, can be successful. Employees need to be empowered to be able to do that. Let's go ahead and talk through the first, um, program accelerating it monetization. This is Tuesday, September 28th. Let's talk about some of the, of the Citrix innovations that you're going to be announcing. >>Yeah, so I mean, as I mentioned know, we, we, we think about sort of ecstatic. I see modernization in various parts. You know, we tend to start with the classic infrastructure and we've seen over the years that lots of infrastructure, you know, he's leaving the building. And by that we mean the traditional realms of on-premise data centers or co-location facilities, this constant evolution and migration of those services, uh, to, to infrastructure as a service providers from the huge cloud companies that are out there. And we can continue to see that as a, as a huge trend. Of course. Um, one of the things that off the back of that of course is our move from the traditional world of virtual desktops, which was a very on-premise concept into desktop as a service. So really the key around desktop as a service, it's a simplification, some cost optimization and the things that it are looking at in terms of how they can really bring things to the party for their organizations going forward. >>And of course, as we move into that world of everything being delivered as a service know, things like network services, security services, they almost follow. So some of the things that you'll hear about that is really around our application, delivering security and also our move from VDI to DAS. And, you know, you'll hear a lot about what we're doing with the world's leading cloud providers to really add more Citrix value or build on what we've already done with them, but lots, lots more, uh, and really support the, the, the notion of the, every customer is on a journey to cloud one way or the other. And of course, districts will be ready to help at any stage of that journey. >>Every customer is on the journey to cloud. And we've seen that accelerate so much in the last 18 months. Talk to me a little bit about if we, if we think of desktop as a service, as an evolution of VDI, is that what you're saying? >>Yeah. You know, you think about sort of the traditional VDI scenario was that your virtual desktops, where we were using instead of physical desktops, you know, in inside the usual office location, but during the pandemic, you know, we saw so many customers rely on moving to VDI, to cloud, for reasons of scalability and reasons of security, but then also needing to still in many cases, provide access to those sort of traditional physical PCs. And of course, Citrix has had solutions for that for fundamentally many, many years. Um, but what we're also seeing is that organizations are striving for simplicity. You know, the kind of the value of the desktop is being able to deliver it on demand to the end user securely from wherever they are in the world on whatever device they're on. And as we see this sort of establishment of these new working norms, and I'm not a great fan of the phrase, the new normal, I think we have a new now and that now will evolve. You know, they almost daily as we come through the other side of the pandemic. So the real key drivers for us there obviously flexibility, reliability, security, and also cost optimization, which of course is the bread and butter of most conversations we have with CIO and CTO is around the world. >>That's critical. And I'm going to borrow that, um, the new, now, if you don't mind, I'll cite you credit. But I like that. I agree that I hope this is not the new normal, but one of the things that we've seen in the new now on the security front is we've seen this massive increase in ransomware. Everybody went to work from home almost overnight. Suddenly you have millions of devices, IOT devices connecting to corporate networks. Security became the acceleration of security, became a huge challenge for customers in any organization globally. Let's talk about now the second announcement. This is going to be Tuesday, October 5th, empowering a secure distributed workforce. >>Yeah. And I, and I think you you've hit the nail on the head there. I think the one thing that was perhaps completely staggering to everybody was the speed in which organizations were forced to lock their employees out of the physical office locations and by force. I mean, for all the right reasons that are around the health and wellbeing. I mean, if I think back to my earlier career, you know, before I joined Citrix, I was in a large organization and we would, you know, perform these fire drills every so often where we would go through our disaster recovery business continuity plans and really play scenarios out. Like the office in London was unavailable or the office in LA was unavailable, but never once do I remember is doing every office. And every location is offline from tomorrow. And there's no negotiability. If you have a device at home, please use it. >>You know, we can't provide laptops quick enough, especially with the global chip shortage now as well. So whatever device you have, we'll do our best to, to make that secure. And I think there was, uh, an expectation that the employees would sort of play nicely in that scenario. But of course, you know, if you have your home device, you probably don't update it as much as a work device. So it really does require a new set of thinking. And of course, Citrix has been at the forefront of the zero trust evolution. Now the technologies that we have in place do permit remote work and have them for many years. But I think what we're seeing now is a slightly different type of remote work, you know, with different types of, of applications and devices, as you said, different locations, you know, needing to knit all of that together in a sort of a more contextual way so that we can understand, you know, combinations of the end user, their location, the types of applications that they're using the state of their devices, and sort of bring it all that together to really understand, you know, just exactly how much security needs to be applied. >>I think the traditional challenges are still there, you know, too much security and end users will find a way around it because it's not a good user experience. And, you know, perhaps too much user experience without the security leaves, big holes and big problems for organizations. So, yeah, I think this balancing act is really key. And of course, uh, as we go through the launch funnel security, we'll talk about some of the great innovations and solutions that are coming from central. >>You're right with the fact that, uh, you know, this rapid pivot security, the changes, the things that people are saying, the workforce needs to be empowered. You know, we saw this sudden dependence on all these SAS applications to communicate and to collaborate. We also saw with that rapid PennDOT to work from home ransomware, I was doing some research recently, Christian, and that's it, it's up almost 11 X just in the first half of 2021 DDoSs is massively up. People are, are working from home in environments that are just suddenly a bit chaotic. And it's challenging from a security perspective when you have so many distractions to be able to make sure that you're following all the right steps as an employee, um, that you're not clicking on nefarious links and that you're really doing your own due diligence. So having that zero trust and help from folks like Citrix is really key to this new. Now, as you say, >>It is, you know, the unfortunate thing is that wildlife, uh, no end user, or certainly I would hope that no one user would willingly cause a problem from a security perspective. I think just by the very nature of the way that end users thing, can they interact with links in emails or the, uh, you know, interact with attachments in emails? Unfortunately, relying on the human is always going to be the weakest link in the chain. And I think that's why we have to have new approaches to how we address the use of behavior. You know, can we actually, uh, you know, guide people in different ways. There are plenty of technologies that are out there now. And then many, many from Citrix that actually allow us to what we've lovingly said is, is to save the users from themselves. You know, we can't simply rely on every user to be diligent for every single email or every single link that they see. So, you know, being able to actually understand, you know, where the threats are as it relates to the end user and the likely interaction they have, and then being able to combat those threats in the technology at a seamless way is really part of the excited evolution of, of what we're doing with Citrix. And again, lots of great things to come as we go through the security. >>And the third announcement is around worker boosting worker productivity. That's been a challenge that we've all faced in the last 18 months of having, like I said, a minute ago, you know, people that have suddenly kids learning from home spouses, working people competing for bandwidth. Talk to me about some of the things that Citrix is doing to help those workers be more engaged, be plugged in and really be able to get their jobs done from anywhere. >>Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I can give you the benefit of my experience, you know, being, uh, in a, in a home office for, for, for almost 20 months has been completely the antithesis of the opposite of the rest of my career. You know, I've, I've always been very mobile, um, you know, kind of picking up different devices and using them for different things, just purely from a, you know, the perspective of what's most convenient to me. And I think, you know, if you take that and extrapolate it to, to every employee and every organization around the world who has had to invite work into their home, you know, and another soundbite that I use quite often now is that, you know, for the last 20 months, we really haven't been working from home. We've been living at work, you know, and, and, and it's, it's a fact, you know, we've probably done more hours than ever before. >>We've run the risk of burnout more than ever before. And, you know, prior to the pandemic, I know, talked to you and I talked about this very thing, uh, at synergy, you know, w we talked about the notion of needing to focus on employee experience and employee productivity. You know, we saw plenty of examples in customers with huge initiatives around employee experience and employee productivity. You know, CIO is partnering with HR leads and really trying to figure out a map, the employee journey, you know, what is it that they do every day? You know, how can we make their life easier? And perhaps interestingly, how can we reduce some of the mundane overhead, you know, approvals or requests or things that we see in our everyday life, but actually give the employees more time to be valuable and, and do great cognitive work, which is of course, what, what humans do best. >>And so, you know, you remember, we talked about the micro apps back then. We, we we'd completed the acquisition of Sappho, uh, as you and I talked last time when we unveiled micro apps and micro workflows, as a way to really help end users interact within Citrix workspace. So the systems that they use every day, but provide a new way to do that. And just earlier this year, we completed the acquisition and integration of Reich, which was a fantastic addition to the Citrix portfolio. And so we've really begun to think about, you know, how can we actually help employees to do their best work? You know, w w what are the new capabilities that we need within Citrix workspace? What are the new capabilities that we need in Reich? How do we bring all that together with some of the other solutions that we have Citrix Podio is a really interesting suite of productivity applications that we have really aimed at that number one problem, which is how can I get people to be productive, to stay engaged, to lower the burnout and help them do their best work. And I'm really, really excited because there's some fantastic things. So we announced that the work version of the launch pod, which is on October 12th, >>All of those are so critical. You know, I I've always said employee productivity employee is directly related to the customer experience. I've used Wrike myself before, um, for different projects and being able to have productivity tools that allow the employee to engage, to be able to empower them to move projects forward, especially in a time that is still somewhat chaotic is, is critical as is to your point, ensuring that there are the proper tools to facilitate folks so that they get what they need when they need it to help reduce burnout. That's been a big challenge. You're right. That the living at work thing is real, it's persisting, and we're going to be in this hybrid environment for some TBD amount of time longer. So having the ability to be empowered and productive in a secure way, leveraging cloud capabilities is really key. And it's exciting to hear what Citrix launchpad is going to announce over those three days and deliver. >>Yeah. You know, I, I would just say, you know, in, in, in sort of summary where we're, we're really excited about the three areas now, and they really do sort of all come together in some of those challenges that we talked about, you know, specifically around how we can help organizations to address that accelerated it modernization to drive secure, flexible work in the new now, and also to really reach that goal of having extremely productive, distributed teams as we come out the other side of the pandemic. So, you know, lots going on a fantastic time to, to be here and to talk to you and to be at Citrix, of course, with so many, you know, huge customer issues that we, that we have to solve. And we're really excited for the challenge. >>Excellent. And we all are looking forward to that, the Citrix launchpad series, Christian, where can folks go to register for these different programs? >>Yeah, sure. So it's pretty simple. So if we just go to HTTP bit dot Lee, bit dot L Y forward slash Citrix launchpad, and we can sign up through that. >>Excellent. I've already signed up. I'm looking forward to these series, this series, to learn more about what you guys are doing and kind of dig in double click on some of the things that you spoke about Christian. Thank you for joining me today, talking about the launch pad series and letting folks know where they can go to register. >>Thank you. Great to be on the great to see you again. >>Likewise, for Christian Riley, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching a cube conversation.

>> From around the globe, it's theCube covering Data Citizens '21, brought to you by Collibra. >> For the past decade, organizations have been effecting very deliberate data strategies investing quite heavily in people, processes, and technology specifically designed to gain insights from data, better serve customers, drive new revenue streams, we've heard this before. The results quite frankly have been mixed. As much of the effort is focused on analytics and technology designed to create a single version of the truth, which in many cases continues to be elusive. Moreover, the world of data is changing, data is increasingly distributed making collaboration in governance more challenging especially where operational use cases are a priority. Hello, everyone, my name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCube's coverage of Data Citizens '21. And we're pleased to welcome Michele Goetz, who's the Vice President and Principal Analyst at Forrester Research. Hello, Michele, welcome to theCube. >> Hi, Dave thanks for having me today. >> It's our pleasure. So I want to start, you serve have a wide range of roles including enterprise architects, CDOs, chief data officers that is, the analyst et cetera, and many data related functions. And my first question is what are they thinking about today? What's on their minds? These data experts. >> So there's actually two things happening. One is what is the demand that's placed on data for our new intelligent digital systems. So we're seeing a lot of investment and interest in things like edge computing. And then how does that intersect with artificial intelligence to really run your business intelligently and drive new value propositions, to be both adaptive to the market as well as resilient to changes that are unforeseen. The second thing is then you create this massive complexity to managing the data, governing the data, orchestrating the data, because it's not just a centralized data warehouse environment anymore. You have a highly diverse and distributed landscape that you both control internally, as well as taking advantage of third party information. So really what the struggle then becomes is how do you trust the data? How do you govern it and secure or protect that data? And then how do you ensure that it's hyper-contextualized to the types of value propositions that our intelligence systems are going to serve? >> Well, I think you're hitting on the key issues here. I mean, you're right, the data and I sort of refer to this as well as sort of out there it's distributed as at the edge, but generally our data organizations are actually quite centralized. And as well, you talk about the need to trust the data, obviously that's crucial. But are you seeing the organization change? I know you're talking about this to clients, your discussion about collaboration. How are you seeing that change? >> Yeah, so as you have to bring data into context of the insights that you're trying to get or the intelligence that's automating and scaling out the value streams and outcomes within your business. We're actually seeing a federated model emerge in organizations. So while there's still a centralized data management and data services organization led typically by enterprise architects for data, a data engineering team that's managing warehouses and data lakes. They're creating this great platform to access and orchestrate information, but we're also seeing data and analytics and governance teams come together under chief data officers or chief data and analytics officers. And this is really where the insights are being generated from either BI and analytics or from data science itself and having dedicated data engineers and stewards that are helping to access and prepare data for analytic efforts. And then lastly, this is the really interesting part is when you push data into the edge, the goal is that you're actually driving an experience and an application. And so in that case, we are seeing data engineering teams starting to be incorporated into the solutions teams that are aligned to lines of business or divisions themselves. And so really what's happening is if there is a solution consultant who is also overseeing value-based portfolio management when you need to instrument the data to these new use cases and keep up with the pace of the business, it's this engineering team that is part of the DevOps work bench to execute on that. So really the balances we need the core, we need to get to the insights and build our models for AI. And then the next piece is how do you activate all that and there's a team over there to help? So it's really spreading the wealth and expertise where it needs to go. >> Yeah, I love that you to, a couple of things that really resonated with me. You talked about context a couple of times and this notion of a federated model, because historically the sort of big data architecture, the team, they didn't have the context, the business context, and you're the, my inference is that's changing. And I think that's critical. Your talk at Data Citizens is called how obsessive collaboration fuels scalable DataOps. You talk about the data, the DevOps team. What's the premise you put forth to the audience? >> So the point about obsessive collaboration is sort of taking the hubris out of your expertise on the data. Certainly, there's a recognition by data professionals that the business understands and owns their data. They know the semantics, they know the context of it and just receiving the requirements on that was assumed to be okay. And then you could provide a data foundation whether it's just a lake or whether you have a warehouse environment where you're pulling for your analytics. The reality is that as we move into more of AI machine learning type of model, one, more context is necessary and you're kind of balancing between what are the things that you can ascribe to the data globally which is what data engineers can support. And then there's what is unique about the data and the context of about the data that is related to the business value and outcome as well as the feature engineering that is being done on the machine learning models. So there has to be a really tight link and collaboration between the data engineers, the data scientists, and analysts, and the business stakeholders themselves. You see a lot of pods starting up that way to build the intelligence within the system. And then lastly, what do you do with that model? What do you do with that data? What do you do with that insight? You now have to shift your collaboration over to the work bench that is going to pull all these components together to create the experiences and the automation that you're looking for. And that requires a different collaboration model around software development and still incorporating the business expertise from those stakeholders so that you're satisfying, not only the quality of the code to run the solution, but the quality towards the outcome that meets the expectation and the time to value that your stakeholders have. So data teams aren't just sitting in the basement or in another part of the organization and digitally, disconnected anymore. You're finding that they're having to work much more closely and side by side with their colleagues and stakeholders. >> I think it's clear that you understand this space really well, hubris out, context in, I mean, that's kind of what's been lacking. And I'm glad you said, you used the word anymore because I think it's a recognition that that's kind of what it was. They were down in the basement or out in some kind of silo. And I think, and I want to ask you this, I'll come back to organization because I think a lot of organizations, look the most cost effective way for us to serve the businesses to have a single data team with hyper-specialized roles, that'll be the cheapest way, the most efficient way that we can serve them. And meanwhile, the business which as you pointed out has the context is frustrated. They can't get to data. So this notion of a federated governance model is actually quite interesting. Are you seeing actual common use cases where this is being operationalized? >> Absolutely, I think the first place that you were seeing it was within the operational technology use cases. The use cases where a lot of the manufacturing, industrial device, any sort of IoT-based use case really recognized that without applying data and intelligence to whatever process was going to be executed, it was really going to be challenging to know that you're creating the right foundation, meeting the SLA requirements, and then ultimately bringing the right quality and integrity to the data, let alone any sort of data protection and regulatory compliance that has to be necessary. So you already started seeing the solution teams coming together with the data engineers, the solution developers, the analysts, and data scientists, and the business stakeholders to drive that. But that is starting to come back down into more of the IT mindset as well. And so DataOps starts to emerge from that paradigm into more of the corporate types of use cases and sort of parrot that because there are customer experience use cases that have an IoT or edge component to them. We live on our smart phones, we live on our smart watches, we've got our laptops, all of us have been put into virtual collaboration. And so we really need to take into account not just the insight of analytics, but how do you feed that, you know, feed that forward. And so this is really where you're seeing sort of the evolution of DataOps as a competency not only to engineer the data and collaborate, but ensure that there sort of an activation and alignment where the value is going to come out and still being trusted and governed. >> I've got kind of a weird question, but I'm going to (indistinct). I was talking to somebody in Israel the other day and they told me masks are off, the economy's booming. And he noted that Israel said, "Hey, we're going to pay up for the price of a vaccine, the cost per dose around 28 bucks," or whatever it was. And he pointed out that the EU haggled big time and they go, "We're going to pay $19." And as a result, they're not, you know, as far along Israel understood that the real value was opening up the economy. And so there's an analogy here, which I want to come back to my organization and it relates to the DataOps. If the real metric is, "Hey, I have an idea for a data product." How long does it take to go from idea to monetization? That seems to me to be a better KPI than, you know, how much storage I have or how much petabytes I'm managing. So my question is, and it relates to DataOps, can that DataOps, should that DataOps individual maybe live and then maybe even the data engineer live inside of the business and is that even feasible technically with this notion of federated governance? Are you seeing that? And maybe talk a little bit more about this DataOps role. Is it-- >> Yeah. >> Fungible? >> Yeah, it's definitely fungible. And in fact, when I talked about sort of those three units of there's your core enterprise data services, there's your BI and data and then there's your line of business. All of those, the engineering and the ops is the DataOps which is living in all of those environments and being as close as possible to where the value proposition is being defined and designed. So absolutely being able to federate that. And I think the other piece on DataOps that is really important is recognizing how the practices around continuous integration and continuous deployment using agile methodologies is really reshaping a lot of the waterfall approaches that were done before where data was lagging 12 to 18 months behind any sort of insights, but a lot of the platforms today assume that you're moving into a standard mature software development life cycle. And you can start seeing returns on investment within a quarter really, so that you can iterate and then speed that up so that you're delivering new value every two weeks. But it does change the mindset, this DataOps team align to solution development, align to a broader portfolio management of business capabilities and outcomes needs to understand how to appropriately stop the data products that they're delivering to incremental value based milestones. So the business feels that they're getting improvements over time and not just waiting. So there's an MVP, you move forward on that and optimize, optimize, extend scale. So again, that CICD mindset is helping to not bottleneck and wait for the complete field of dreams to come from your data and your insights. >> Thank you for that, Michele. I want to come back to this idea of collaboration 'cause over the last decade, we've seen attempts. I've seen software come out to try to help the various roles, collaborate and some of it's been okay, but you have these hyper-specialized roles. You've got data scientists, data engineers, quality engineers, analysts, et cetera. And they tend to be in their own little worlds. But at the end of the day, we rely on them all to get answers. So how can these data scientists, all these stewards, how can they collaborate better? What are you seeing there? >> You need to get them onto the same process, that's really what it comes down to. If you're working from different points of view, that's one thing. But if you're working from different processes, collaborating is really challenging. And I think the one thing that's really come out of this move to machine learning and AI is recognizing that you need processes that reinforce collaboration. So that's number one. So you see agile development in CICD not just for DataOps, not just for DevOps, but also encouraging and propelling these projects and iterations before the data science teams as well or even if there's machine learning engineers incorporated. And then, certainly the business stakeholders are inserted within there as appropriate to accept what it is that is going to be developed. So process is number one. Number two is what is the platform that's going to reinforce those processes and collaboration. And it's really about what's being shared. How do you share? So certainly what we're seeing within the platforms themselves is everybody contributing into some sort of a library where their components and products are being ascribed to and then that's able to help different teams grab those components and build out what those solutions are going to be. And in fact, what gets really cool about that is you don't always need hardcore data scientists anymore as you have this social platform for data product and analytic product development. This is where a lot of the auto ML begins because those who are less data science oriented but can build an insight pipeline, can grab all the different components from the pipelines to the transformations, to capture mechanisms, to bolting into the model itself and allowing that to be delivered to the application. So really kind of balancing out between process and platforms that enable and encourage and almost force you to collaborate and manage through sharing. >> Thank you for that I want to ask you about the role of data governance. You've mentioned trust and that's data quality and you've got teams that are focused on and specialists focused on data quality. There's the data catalog and here's my question. You mentioned edge a couple of times and I can see a lot of that. I mean, today, most AI is a lot of the AI, I would say most is modeling. And in the future, you mentioned edge. It's going to be a lot of inferencing in real-time. And you know people maybe not going to have the time or be involved in that decision. So what are you seeing in terms of data governance, federate, we talked about federated governance, this notion of a data catalog and maybe automating data quality without necessarily having it be so labor-intensive. What are you seeing trends there? >> Yeah, so I think our new environment, our new normal is that you have to be composable, interoperable, and portable. Portability is really the key here. So from a cataloging perspective, in governance we would bring everything together into our catalogs and business glossaries. And it would be a reference point. It was like a massive Wiki. Well, that's wonderful, but why just how's it in a museum you really want to activate that. And I think what's interesting about the technologies today for governance is that you can turn those rules and business logic and policies into services that are composable components and bring those into the solutions that you're defining. And in that way, what happens is that creates portability. You can drive them wherever they need to go. But from the composability and the interoperability portion of that, you can put those services in the right place at the right time for what you need for an outcome so that you start to become behaviorally-driven on executing on governance, rather than trying to write all of the governance down into transformations and controls to where the data lives. You can have quality and observability of that quality and performance right at the edge in context of behavior and use of that solution. You can run those services and in governance on gateways that are managing and routing information at those edge solutions and where synchronization between the edge and the cloud comes up. And if it's appropriate during synchronization of the data back into the data lake, you can run those services there. So there's a lot more flexibility and elasticity for today's modern approaches to cataloging and glossaries and governance of data than we had before. And that goes back into what we talked about earlier of like this is the new wave of DataOps. This is how you bring data products to fruition now everything is about activation. >> So how do you see the future of DataOps? I mean, I kind of been pushing you to a more decentralized model where the business has more control 'cause the business has the context. I mean, I feel as though, hey, we've done a great job of contextualizing our operational systems. The sales team, they know when the data is crap within my CRM, but our data systems are context agnostic, which you know, generally and you obviously understand that problem well but so how do you see the future of DataOps? >> So I think what's kind of interesting about that is we're going to go to governance on greed versus governance on right, more so. What do I mean by that? That means that from a business perspective there's two sides of it. There's ensuring that where governance is run as we talked about before executing at the appropriate place at the appropriate time. It's semantically domain centric driven not logical and systems centric. So that's number one. Number two is also recognizing that business owners or business operations actually plays a role in this because as you're working within your CRM systems like a Salesforce, for example, you're using an I-PASS environment MuleSoft to connect to other applications, connect to other data sources, connect to other analytics sources, and what's happening there is that the data is being modeled and personalized to whatever view, insight, or task has to happen within those processes. So even CRM environments where we think of as sort of traditional technologies that we're used to are getting a lift to both in terms of intelligence from the data but also your flexibility and how you execute governance and quality services within that environment. And that actually opens up the data foundations a lot more and avoids you from having to do a lot of moving, copying, centralizing data, and creating an over-weighted business application and an over, you know, both in terms of the data foundation but also in terms of the types of business services and status updates and processes that happen in the application itself. You're drawing those tasks back down to where they should be and where performance can be managed rather than trying to over customize your application environment. And that gives you a lot more flexibility later too for any sort of upgrades or migrations that you want to make because all of the logic is contained back down in a service layer instead. >> Great perspectives, Michele, you obviously know your stuff and it's been a pleasure having you on. My last question is when you look out there anything that really excites you or any specific research that you're working on that you want to share that you're super-pumped about. >> I think there's two things. One is it's truly incredible the amount of insight and growth that is coming through data profiling and observation, really understanding and contextualizing data anomalies so that you understand is data helping or hurting the business value. And, you know tying it very specifically to processes and metrics which is fantastic as well as models themselves like really understanding how data inputs and outputs are making a difference whether the model performs or not. And then I think the second thing is really the emergence of more active data, active insights, as what we talked about before your ability to package up services for governance and quality in particular that allow you to scale your data out towards the edge or where it's needed and doing so, you know not just so that you can run analytics but that you're also driving overall processes and value. So the research around the operationalization and activation of data is really exciting. And looking at the networks and service mesh to bring those things is kind of where I'm focusing right now because what's the point of having data in a database if it's not providing any value. >> Michele Goetz, Forrester Research, thanks so much for coming on theCube really awesome perspectives. You're in an exciting space. So appreciate your time. >> Absolutely, thank you. >> And thank you for watching Data Citizens '21 on theCube. My name is Dave Vellante. (upbeat music)

(lively music) >> Welcome back to HPE Discover 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE's virtual coverage of Discover '21, and we're excited to welcome back Arwa Kaddoura, she's a vice president and world-wide go-to market leader for HPE's smoking hot GreenLake Cloud Services. Arwa, welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you again. >> Thank you for having me, it's good to be with you. >> So, talk about how your products and services are supporting customer transformations. I'm interested in the experience that everybody's been dreaming about. Describe how you're giving your customer that competitive advantage. And if you've got an examples, that would be awesome. >> Yeah, you got it. I think as we heard Antonio say, that cloud is an experience, not a destination, right? And what we're doing with GreenLake is bringing those cloud capabilities and the cloud experience to our customers. You know, we like to say, colocations, data center and edge of course. So this is the cloud on prem. And so rather than forcing customers to only have to go up to cloud, to get modern cloud capabilities or the benefits of things like, pay as you go for consumption, etc, cloud native capabilities, like containers, leveraging Kubernetes, we now bring all of that to GreenLake and to our customers, edge locations, and Colocation and data centers. We've been able to dramatically transform many of our customers businesses, right, and you'll probably see it discover some of those examples come to life, for example, Carestream, who is in the electronic medical imaging world, right, they have all of the X-Ray equipment that capture X-rays and different sort of diagnostics for patients. And we worked with them to not only craft a ML solution to better read and diagnose these images, but also all of the underlying infrastructure with the HPE GreenLake ML Ops platform that allows them to instantly leverage the capabilities of machine learning and the infrastructure to go with it. >> And so tell me, so how is it resonating with customers? They're talking to customers all the time? What do they tell you? >> Sure, you know I think what our customers appreciate about HP GreenLake is, it's not sort of look, it's either all on prem in my data center, and I have to fully manage it, build it, implement it, take care of it, or it's fully public cloud, I have little control and basically, I get whatever the public cloud gives me, right? HPE GreenLake gives our customers the flexibility and control that they require, right? And so you can think of many use cases where customers have a need to have the compute storage sort of processing need to happen closer to where their data and apps live. And so for that exact reason, our customers love the flexibility, right. Cloud One Dotto was public cloud, Cloud Two Dotto I think is the cloud that comes to our customers at their convenience. And to me, what I tell CIOs and CTOs and sort of other lines of business leaders when I meet with them, is you shouldn't be forced to have to take your data and apps elsewhere to get the transformation that you need. We want to be able to bring that directly to our customers. >> 'Cause a lot of the transformation is around data, we love talking about data on theCUBE. It's funny, I mean, we talked about big data last decade, we don't use that term much anymore. It was kind of overhyped, but as oftentimes is the case may be in the early days it's overhyped, but then it's underhyped. When it actually starts to kick in, and I feel like we're entering a new age of data and insights with the ascendancy of machine learning and AI. What does this mean from HPEs perspective and what are customers telling you that it means for them? >> Yeah, now, data I think, we often hear data is the new currency, right? It's the new gold. we've heard Antonio even say things like, data can even become something that maybe over time companies start to put some kind of value on their balance sheet behind, right, the same way that maybe brands represented this value on a balance sheet. Effectively, what's happened with data is, a lot of people have a lot of data. But there's not been a lot of ability to extract insights from data, right. And I think this is the new revolution that we're all undergoing is we finally have the modern analytics tools to actually turn the data into insights. And what we bring to the table from an HPE perspective is the fact that we have the best infrastructure, we obviously now have the cloud capabilities mixed in with our data fabric or container platform, or machine learning operations platform, to then be able to process that data, again, integrated with many of the great ISV partners that we have on the data side allow our customers to turn that into real insights for their business. And effectively data is becoming a huge competitive advantage, right? I think many of us are leveraging some pretty interesting tools or gadgets these days, right? Like, I wear one of those sleep rings. You can imagine a company like that in the future that's able to collect so much data from the folks that purchase their products, then being able to give us insights about, where's the best ZIP Code that people get the most amount of sleep and which ZIP Codes are the healthiest in the United States or countries, et cetera? But data really is becoming a competitive advantage. And one of the things that we care most about at HPE is also using it as a force for good and making sure that there is a sort of ethical AI capability. >> That's a great message and very important one. It's interesting what you're saying about data and the value, how we value, it's clearly being valued in terms of companies' market caps, but maybe it's not in the balance sheet yet, but it's on the income statement in terms of data products and data services that that's happening. So, maybe we'll see if Antonia is right in the next several years. But so, let's talk more about the specific data challenges that you're solving for your customers, they talk about silos, they talk about, they haven't gotten as much value out of their data initiatives as they wanted to. What are they telling you are their challenges and how are you approaching it? >> Yeah, I think data is everywhere, right? The ability for customers to store the right amount of data is a huge challenge. Because obviously, there's a huge cost associated with collecting, keeping, cleansing, processing, all the way to sort of analyzing your data. There tends to be a ton of data silos, right. So customers are looking for a common data fabric that they can then process their data sources across, and then be able to sort of tap into that data from an analytics perspective. So much of the technology, again, that we're focused on is be able to store the data, right, our Data Fabric layer with Ezmeral, right, being able to process that data, capture that data, and then allow the analytics tools to then harness the power of that data and turn that into real business insights for our customers. Every customer that I spoken to whether their financial services, you can imagine the big financial services, I mean, they've got just bazillions of pockets of data everywhere. And the real sort of challenge for them is how do I build a common data platform that allows me to tap into that data in effective ways for my business users? >> Can you talk a little bit about how you're changing the way you're providing solutions, maybe you could contrast it with the way HPE has done in the past? Because I think that's important when you think about, you talk a lot about GreenLake and as a service. But if the products are still kind of boxes and lands and gigahertz and ports, then that's a discontinuity. So, what's changed from the past and how are you feeding into the way customers are transforming their business and supporting their outcomes? >> That's exactly right. At some point in time, right, if you think maybe 10 or 20 years back, it used to be very much about the infrastructure for HPE. What's exciting about what we're doing differently for our customers, is, look, we have the best infrastructure in the business, right? HPE has been doing this longer than anyone has probably almost 60 years now. But being able to vertically integrate right, move up in that value chain so that our customers can get more complete solutions, is the more interesting part for our customers. Our customers love our technology yes, the gigahertz and the speeds and feeds, all of that do matter because they make for some very powerful infrastructure. However, what makes it easier is the fact that we are building platform stacks on top of that hardware, that help abstract away the complexity of that infrastructure and the ability to use it far more seamlessly. And then, if you think about it we of course have also one of the most advanced services organizations. So being able to leverage our services capabilities, our platform capabilities, on top of that hardware, again, deliver it back to our customers in a consumption model, which they've come to expect from a cloud model. And then surrounded by a very rich ecosystem of partners, and we're talking about system integrators that now have capabilities on helping our customers run their GreenLake environments. We're talking about ISVs, right, so software stacks and platforms that fully integrate with the GreenLake platform for completely seamless solutions, as well as channel partners and global distributors. So I think that's where we can truly deliver the ultimate end-to-end solution. It's not just the hardware, right? But it's being complemented with the right services, being complemented with the right platform capabilities, the software integrations to deliver that workload that the customer expects. >> So customers and partners, they got to place bets, they've got to put resources, time, money, and align their resources with their partners and their suppliers like HPE. So when they ask you, hey, okay, "HPE, tell me what's your overall strategy? "Why is it compelling? "And why do you give me competitive advantage relative to some of your peers in the industry?" >> Yeah, I think what partners are going to be most excited about is the openness of the platform, right? Being able to allow our partners to leverage GreenLake Central with open API, so that they can integrate some of their own technologies into our platform, the ability to allow them to also layer in their own managed services on top of the platform is key. And, of course, being able to build sort of these win-win solutions with the system integrators, right? The system integrators have some fantastic capabilities all the way from an application development, all the way down to the infrastructure management, and data center delivery centers that they have. And so leveraging HPE GreenLake really helps them have access to the core technologies that they need to deliver these solutions. >> I wonder if I could take a little sort of side road here and ask you because so many changes going on, HPE itself is transforming, your customers are transforming, the pandemic has accelerated all these transformations. Can you talk a little bit about how you've transformed go-to-market specifically in the context of as a service? I mean, that had to be quite a change for you guys. >> Yeah, now go-to-market transformations in support of sort of moving from traditional go-to-markets, right, to cloud go-to-markets are significant. They required us to really think through what does delivering as a service solutions mean for our direct Salesforce? What does it mean for our partners and their transformations and being able to support as a service solutions? For HPE specifically, it also means thinking about our customer outcomes, not just our ability to ship the requisite hardware and say, look, once it's left our dock, our job is done, right. It really takes our obligation all the way to the customer using the technology on a day by day basis, as well as supporting them in making sure that everything from implementation to set up to the ongoing monitoring operations of the technology is working for them in the way that they'd expect in an as a service way, right? We don't expect them to operate it, we don't expect them to do anything more than pick up the phone and call us if something doesn't go as planned. >> Then how about your sellers and your partners? How did they respond? I mean, you wake up one day is Okay guys, here we go. New compensation scheme, new way to sell, new way to market. That took some thought and some time and where are you in that journey? >> That's right. And I always say, if you expect people to wake up one day and be transformed, right, you're kidding yourself. So everything from sort of the way that we think about our customers use cases, right, and empowering our sellers to understand the outcomes that our customers expect and demand from us to things like compensation to the partner rebate program that we leverage through the channel partners in order to give them the right incentives to also allow them to make the right investments to support GreenLake. HPE has a fairly significant field, sales and solution team. And so not thinking about this only as a single person that represents GreenLake, but looking at our capabilities across the board, right, we have fantastic advisory consultants on the ground with PhDs and data science, we have folks that understand high performance computing. So making sure that we're embedding the expertise in all of the right personas that support our customers, not just from a comp perspective, but also from an understanding of the end-to-end solutions that we're bringing to those markets. >> So what gets you stoked in the morning, you get out of bed, you're like, "Okay, I'm going to go attack the world." What are you most excited about for HPE and its future? >> There's so much happening right now in this sort of cloud world, right? To me, the most exciting portion is the fact that given that we've now introduced on prem cloud to the world, our ability to ship new services and new capabilities, but also do that via a very rich partner ecosystem, honestly is what probably has me most excited. This is no longer the age of go-at-it-alone, right. So not only are our engineering and product teams hard at work in the engine room producing capabilities at sort of lightning fast speeds, but it's also our ability to partner, whether it's with platform providers, software providers, or system integrators and services providers. That ecosystem is starting to come together to deliver highly meaningful solutions to our customers and all in a very open way. The number one thing that I personally care about is that our customers never feel like they are being locked in, or that they are sort of being forced, have to give up certain levels of capabilities, we want to give them the best of what's out there and allow them to then have that flexibility in their solution. >> And one of the challenges, of course, with virtual events is you don't have the hallway track, somebody can say, "Hey, have you seen that IoT zone? It's amazing, they got all these robots going around." So what would you say that people should be focused on at discover maybe things that you want to call out specific highlights or segments that you think are relevant? >> Yeah, there's going to be a ton of fantastic stuff. I think, really looking for that edge to cloud strategy, that we're going to be spending a lot of time talking about looking at some of our vertical workload solutions, right? We're going to be talking about quite a few from electronic healthcare records, to payment solutions and many more. I think, depending on what folks are interested in there's going to be something for everyone. Project Aurora, which now starts to announce our new security capabilities, the zero trust capabilities that we're delivering is probably interesting to a lot of our customers. So lots of exciting things coming and I'm excited for our customers to check those out. >> No doubt, that's a hot topic, especially given what's been happening in the news these past several months. Arwa, thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE. It's great to see you hopefully face-to-face next time. >> Thank you, I sure hope so. Thanks so much for having me. >> It was our pleasure. And thank you for watching and thank you for being with us in our ongoing coverage of HPE Discover 2021. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in digital tech coverage. >> Thank you. (soft music)

>> Welcome back to Cube On Cloud. My name is Paul Gillin, enterprise editor at SiliconANGLE, and I'm pleased to now have as a guest on the show. Amit Zephyr, excuse me, general manager, vice president of business application platform at Google cloud. Amit is a formerly EVP and corporate officer for product development at Oracle cloud, 24 years at Oracle, and by my account a veteran of seven previous appearances on theCube. Amit welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me Paul, it's always good to be back on theCube. >> Now you are... one of your big focus areas right now is on low-code and no-code. Of course this is a market that seems to be growing explosively. We often hear low code/no code used in the same breath as if they're the same thing. In fact, how are they different? >> I think it's a huge difference, now. I think industry started as local mode for many, many years. I mean, there were technologies, or tools provided for kind of helping developers be more productive that's what low-code was doing. It was not really meant, even though it was positioned for citizen developers it was very hard for a non technologist to really build application using low code. No-code is really meant as the word stands, no code. So there's really no coding, there's no understanding required about the underlying technology stack, or knowing how constructs works or how the data is laid out. All that stuff is kind of hidden and abstracted out from you. You are really focused as a citizen developer or a line of business user, in kind of delivering what your business application requirements are, and the business flows are, without having to know anything about writing any code. So you can build applications, you can build your interfaces and not have to learn anything about a single line of code. So that's really no-code and I think they getting to a phase now where the platforms have gotten much stronger and better where you can do very good productive applications without having to write a single line of code. So that's really the goal with no-code, and that's really the future in terms of how we will get more and more line of business users, or citizen developers to build applications they need for their day-to-day work. >> So when would you use one or the other? >> I think since low-code you would probably any developer has been around for eight, 10 years, if not longer where you extract out some of this stuff you can do some of the things in terms of not having to write some code where you have a lot of modules pre-built for you, and then when you want to mix a lot of changes, you go and drop into an ID and write some code or make some changes to a code. So you still get into that, and those are really focused towards semi-professional developers or IT in many cases or even developers who want to reduce the time required to start from, write and building an application. so it makes you much more productive. So if you are a really some semi-professional or you are a developer, you can either use use low-code to improve your productivity and not start from scratch. No-code is really used for folks who are really not interested in learning about coding, don't have any experience in it, and still want to be productive and build applications. And that's really when I would start with.. I would not give a low code to a citizen developer or a line of business user who has no experience with any coding. And that's not really.. It will only productive, They'll get frustrated and not deliver what you need, and not get anything out of it and many cases. >> Well, I've been around this industry long enough to remember fourth-generation languages and visual basic >> Yeah and the predecessors that never really caught on in a big way. I mean, they certainly had big audiences but, right now we're seeing 40, 50% annual market growth. Why is this market suddenly so hot? >> Yeah it's not a difference. I think that as you said, the 4G deal and I think a lot of those tools, even if you look at forms, and PLC and we kind of extracted out the technology and made it easier, but it was not very clear who they were targeting with that. They're still targeting the same developer audience. So the they never expanded the universe of users. It was same user base, just making it simpler for them. So, with those low-code tools, it never landed them getting more and more user base out of that. With no-code platforms, you are now expanding the user community. You are giving this capabilities to more and more users than a low-code tools could provide. That's why I think the growth is much faster. So if you find the right no-code platform, you will see a lot more adoption because you're solving a real problem, you are giving them a lot more capabilities and making the user productive without having to depend on IT in many cases, or having to wait for a lot of those big applications to be built for them even though they need it immediately. So I think that's why I think you're solving a real business problem and giving a lot more capabilities to users and no doubt the users love it and they start expanding the usage. It's very viral adoption in many cases after that. >> Historically the rap on these tools has been that, because they're typically interpreted, the performance is never going to be up to that of application written in C plus plus or something. Is that still the case? Is that a sort of structural weakness of no-code tools or is that changing? >> I think the early days probably not any more. I think if you look at what we are doing at Google Cloud for example, it's not interpreted, I mean, it does do a lot of heavy lifting underneath the covers, but, and you don't have to go into the coding part of it but it brings the whole Cloud platform with it, right? So the scalability, the security the performance, availability all that stuff is built into the platform. So it's not a tool, it's a platform. I think that's thing, the big difference. Most of the early days you will see a lot of these things as a tool, which you can use it, and there's nothing underneath the covers the run kinds are very weak, there's really not the full Cloud platform provided with it, but I think the way we seeing it now and over the last many years, what we have done and what we continue to do, is to bring the power of the Cloud platform with it. So you're not missing out on the scalability, the performance, security, even the compliance and governance is built in. So IT is part of the process even though they might not build an application themselves. And that's where I think the barriers have been lifted. And again, it's not a solution for everything also. I'm not saying that this would go in, if you want to build a full end to end e-commerce site for example, I would not use a no-code platform for it, because you're going to do a lot more heavy lifting, you might want to integrate with a lot of custom stuff, you might build a custom experience. All that kind of stuff might not be that doable, but there are a lot of use cases now, which you can deliver with a platform like what we've been building at Google cloud. >> So, talk about what you're doing at Google cloud. Do you have a play in both the low-code and the no-code market? Do you favor one over the other? >> Yeah no I think we've employed technologies and services across the gamut of different requirements, right? I mean, our goal is not that we will only address one market needs and we'll ignore the rest of the things required for our developer community. So as you know, Google cloud has been very focused for many years delivering capabilities for developer community. With technology we deliver the Kubernetes and containers tend to flow for AI, compute storage all that kind of stuff is really developer centric. We have a lot of developers build applications on it writing code. They have abstracted some of this stuff and provide a lot of low-code technologies like Firebase for building mobile apps, the millions of apps mobile apps built by developers using Firebase today that it does abstract out the technology. And then you don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting yourself. So we do provide a lot of low-code tooling as well. And now, as we see the need for no-code especially kind of empowering the line of business user and citizen developers, we acquired a company called AppSheet, early 2020, and integrated that as part of our Google Cloud Platform as well as the workspace. So the G suite, the Gmail, all the technology all the services we provide for productivity and collaboration. And allowed users to now extend that collaboration capabilities by adding a workflow, and adding another app experience as needed for a particular business user needs. So that's how we looking at it like making sure that we can deliver a platform for spectrum of different use cases. And get that flexibility for the end user in terms of whatever they need to do, we should be able to provide as part of a Google Cloud Platform now. >> So as far as Google Cloud's positioning, I mean you're number three in the market you're growing but not really changing the distance between you and Microsoft for what public information we've been able to see in AWS. In Microsoft you have a company that has a long history with developers and of development tools and really as is that as a core strength do you see your low-code/no-code strategy as being a way to make up ground on them? >> Yeah, I think that the way to look at the market, and again I know the industry analyst and the market loves to do rankings in this world but, I think the Cloud business is probably big enough for a lot of vendors. I mean, this is growing as the amazing pace as you know. And it is becoming, it's a large investment. It takes time for a lot of the vendors to deliver everything they need to. But today, if you look at a lot of the net new growth and lot of net new customers, we seeing a huge percentage of share coming to Google Cloud, right? And we continue to announce some of the public things and the results will come out again every quarter. And we tried to break out the Cloud segment in the Google results more regularly so that people get an idea of how well they're doing in the Cloud business. So we are very comfortable where we are in terms of our growth in terms of our adoption, as well as in terms of how we delivering all the value our customers require, right? So, note out one of the parts we want to do is make sure that we have a end to end offering for all of the different use cases customers require and no-code is one of the parts we want to deliver for our customers as well. We've done very good capabilities and our data analytics. We do a lot of work around AIML, industry solutions. You look at the adoption we've had around a lot of those platform and Hybrid and MultiCloud. It's been growing very, very fast. And this one more additional things we are going to do, so that we can deliver what our customers are asking for. We're not too worried about the rankings we are worried about really making sure we're delivering the value to our customers. And we're seeing that it doesn't end very well. And if you look at the numbers now, I mean the growth rate is higher than any other Cloud vendor as well as be seeing a huge amount of demand been on Google Cloud as well. >> Well, not to belabor the point, but naturally your growth rate is going to be higher if you're a third of the market, I mean, how important is it to you to break into, to surpass the number two? How important are rankings within the Google Cloud team, or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about... we are not focused on ranking, or any of that stuff typically, I think we were worried about making sure customers are satisfied, and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we're signing up, a lot of the large deals they didn't... do we need to look at the announcement we'd made over the last year, has been tremendous momentum around that. Lot of large banks, lot of large telecommunication companies large enterprises, name them. I think all of them are starting to kind of pick up Google Cloud. So if you follow that, I think that's really what is satisfying for us. And the results are starting to show that growth and the momentum. So we can't cover the gap we had in the previous... Because Google Cloud started late in this market. So if Cloud business grows by accumulating revenue over many years. So I cant look at the history, I'm looking at the future really. And if you look at the growth for the new business and the percentage of the net new business, we're doing better than pretty much any other vendor out there. >> And you said you were stepping up your reference to disclose those numbers. Was that what I heard you say? >> I think every quarter you're seeing that, I think we started announcing our revenue and growth numbers, and we started to do a lot of reporting about our Cloud business and that you will start, you see more and more and more of that regularly from Google now. >> Let's get back just briefly to the low-code/no-code discussion. A lot of companies looking at how to roll this out right now. You've got some big governance issues involved here. If you have a lot of citizen developers you also have the potential for chaos. What advice are you giving customers using your tools for how they should organize around citizen development? >> Yeah, no, I think no doubt. If this needs to be adopted by enterprise you can't make it a completely rogue or a completely shadow based development capabilities. So part of our no-code platform, one thing you want to make sure that this is enterprise ready, it has many aspects required for that. One is compliance making sure you have all the regulatory things delivered for data, privacy, security. Second is governance. A lot of the IT departments want to make sure who's using this platform? How are they accessing it? Are they getting the right security privileges associated with that? Are we giving them the right permissions? So in our a no-code platform we adding all this compliance, and governance regulatory stuff as part of our underlying platform, even though the end user might not have to worry about it the person who's building applications shouldn't have to think about it, but we do want to give controls to IT as needed by the large enterprises. So that is a big part of how we deliver this. We're not thinking about this as like go and build it, and then we write it once you have to do things for your enterprise, and then get it to do it again and again. Because then it just a waste of time and you're not getting the benefit of the platform at all. So we bringing those things together where we have a very easy to use, very powerful no-code platform with the enterprise compliance as well as governance built into that platform as well. And that is really resonating. If you look at a lot of the customers we're working with they do require that and they get excited about it as well as the democratizing of all of their line of business users. They're very happy that they're getting that kind of a platform, which they can scale from and deliver the productivity required. >> Certainly going to make businesses look very different in the future. And speaking of futures, It is January it's time to do predictions. What are your predictions (laughs) for the Cloud for this year? >> No I think that I mean no doubt cloud has become the center for pretty much every company now, I think the digital transformation especially with COVID, has greatly accelerated. We have seen many customers now who are thinking of pieces of their platform, pieces of their workflow or business to be digitized. Now that's trying to do it for all of it. So the one part which we see for this year is the need for more and more of efficiency in the industry are verticalized business workflows. It's not just about providing a plain vanilla Cloud Platform but also providing a lot more content and business details and business workflows by industry segments. So we've been doing a lot of work and we expect a huge amount of that to be becoming more and more core part of our offering as well as what customers are asking for. Where you might need things around say know your customer kind of workflow for financial services, Telehealth for healthcare. I mean, every industry has specific things like demand management and demand forecasting for retail but making that as part of a Cloud service not just saying, hey, I have compute storage network. I have some kind of a platform go add it and go and build what you want for your industry needs, We want to provide them that all those kinds of business processes and content for those industries as well. So we identified six, seven, industries. We see that as a kind of the driving factor for our Cloud growth, as well as helping our customers be much more productive as well as seeing the value of Cloud being much more realistic for them versus just a replacement for the data center. I think that's really the big shift in 21 I think. And I think that will make a big difference for all the companies who are really trying to digitize and be in forefront of the needs as their customers require in the future. >> Of course all of this accelerated by the pandemic and all of the specialized needs that have emerged from that. >> And I think the bond, which is important as well, I think as you know, I mean, everybody talks about AIML as like a big thing. No doubt AIML is an important element of it, but if you make that usable and powerful through this kind of workflows and business processes, as well as particular business applications, I think you see a lot more interest in using it than just a plain manila framework or just technology for the technology sake. So we try to bring the power of AI and ML into this business and industry applications, where we have a lot of good technologists at Google who knows how to use all these things. You wanted to bring that into those applications and platforms >> Exciting times ahead. Amit Zavery thank you so much for joining us. You look just as comfortable as I would expect someone to be who is doing his eighth Cube interview. Thanks for joining us. >> (laughing) Thanks for having me, Paul. >> That's it for this segment of Cube On Cloud, I'm Paul Gillin, stay tuned. (soft music)

>> Hello everyone, and welcome back to our wall-to-wall coverage of the Datacloud summit, this is Dave Vellante, and we're seeing the emergence of a next generation workload in the cloud, more facile access, and governed sharing of data is accelerating time to insights and action. Alright, allow me to introduce our next guest. Aimee Irwin is here, she's the vice president of strategy for Experian, and Matt Glickman is VP of customer product strategy at Snowflake, with an emphasis on financial services, folks, welcome to theCUBE, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Hey so Aimee, obviously 2020's been pretty unique and crazy and challenging time for a lot of people, I don't know why, I've been checking my credit score a lot more for some reason on the app, I love the app, I had to lock it the other day, I locked my credit, somebody tried to do, and it worked, I was so happy, so thank you for that. So, we know Experian, but there's a ton of data behind what you do, I wonder if you could share kind of where you sit in the data space, and how you've seen organizations leverage data up to this point, and really if you could address some of the changes you're seeing as a result of the pandemic, that would be great. >> Sure, sure. Well, as you mentioned, Experian is best known as a credit bureau. I work in our marketing services business unit, and what we do is we really help brands leverage the power of data and technology to make the right marketing decisions, and better understand and connect with consumers. So we offer marketers products around data, identity, activation, measurement, we have a consumer-view data file that's based on offline PII and contains demographic interest, transaction data, and other attributes on about 300 million people in the US. And on the identity side we've always been known for our safe haven, or privacy-friendly matching, that allows marketers to connect their first party data to Experian or other third parties, but in today's world, with the growth in importance of digital advertising, and consumer behavior shifting to digital, Experian also is working to connect that offline data to the digital world, for a complete view of the customer. You mentioned COVID, we actually, we serve many different verticals, and what we're seeing from our clients during COVID is that there's a varying impact of the pandemic. The common theme is that those who have successfully pivoted their businesses to digital are doing much better, as we all know, COVID accelerated very strong trends to digital, both in e-commerce and in media-viewing habits. We work with a lot of retailers, retail is a tale of two cities, with big box and grocery growing, and apparel retail really struggling. We've helped our clients, leveraging our data to better understand the shifts in these consumer behaviors, and better psych-map their customers during this really challenging time. So think about, there's a group of customers that is still staying home, that is sheltered in place, there's a group of customers starting to significantly vary their consumer behavior, but is starting to venture out a little, and then there's a group of customers that's doing largely what they did before, in a somewhat modified fashion, so we're helping our clients segment those customers into groups to try and understand the right messaging and right offers for each of those groups, and we're also helping them with at-risk audiences. So that's more on the financial side, which of your customers are really struggling due to the pandemic, and how do you respond. >> That's awesome, thank you. You know, it's funny, I saw a twitter poll today asking if we measure our screen time, and I said, "oh my, no." So, Matt, let me ask you, you spent a ton of time in financial services, you really kind of cut your teeth there, and it's always been very data-oriented, you're seeing a lot of changes, tell us about how your customers are bringing it together, data, the skills, the people, obviously a big part of the equation, and applications to really put data at the center of the universe, what's new and different that these companies are getting out of the investments in data and skills? >> That's a great question, the acceleration that Aimee mentioned is real. We're seeing, particularly this year, but I think even in the past few years, the reluctance of customers to embrace the cloud is behind us, and now there's this massive acceleration to be able to go faster, and in some ways, the new entrants into this category have an advantage versus the companies that have been in this space, whether it's financial services or beyond, and in a lot of ways, they all are seeing the cloud and services like Snowflake as a way to not only catch up, but leapfrog your competitors, and really deliver a differentiated experience to your customers, to your business, internally or externally. And this past, however long this crisis has been going on, has really only accelerated that, because now there's a new demand to understand your customer better, your business better, with your traditional data sources, and also new, alternative data sources, and also being able to take a pulse. One of the things that we learned, which was an eye-opening experience, was as the crisis unfolded, one of our data partners decided to take the datasets about where the cases were happening from the Johns Hopkins, and World Health Organization, and put that on our platform, and it became a runaway hit. Thousands of our customers overnight were using this data to understand how their business was doing, versus how the crisis was unfolding in real time. And this has been a game-changer, and it's only scratching the surface of what now the world will be able to do when data is really at their fingertips, and you're not hindered by your legacy platforms. >> I wrote about that back in the early days of the pandemic when you guys did that, and talked about some of the changes that you guys enabled, and you know, you're right about cloud, in financial services cloud used to be an evil word, and now it's almost, it's become a mandate. Aimee, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what your customers are having to work through in order to achieve some of these outcomes. I mean, you know, I'm interested in the starting point, I've been talking a lot, and writing a lot, and talking to practitioners about what I call the data life cycle, sometimes people call it the data pipeline, it's a complicated matter, but those customers and companies that can put data at the center and really treat that pipeline as the heart of their organization, if you will, are really succeeding. What are you seeing, and what really is the starting point, there? >> Yes, yeah, that's a good question, and as you mentioned, first party, I mean we start with first party data, right? First party data is critical to understanding consumers. And different verticals, different companies, different brands have varying levels of first party data. So a retailers going to have a lot more first party data, a financial services company, than say, an auto manufacturer. And while many marketers have that first party data, to really have a 360 view of the customer, they need third party data as well, and that's where Experian comes in, we help brands connect those disparate datasets, both first and third party data to better understand consumers, and create a single customer view, which has a number of applications. I think the last stat I heard was that there's about eight devices, on average, per person. I always joke that we're going to have these enormous, and that number's growing, we're going to have these enormous charging stations in our house, and I think we already do, because of all the different devices. And we seamlessly move from device to device, along our customer journey, and, if the brand doesn't understand who we are, it's much harder for the brand to connect with consumers and create a positive customer experience. And we cite that about 95 percent of companies, they are looking to achieve that single customer view, they recognize that they need that, and they've aligned various teams from e-commerce, to marketing, to sales, to at a minimum adjust their first party data, and then connect that data to better understand consumers. So, consumers can interact with a brand through a website, a mobile app, in-store visits, you know, by the phone, TV ads, et cetera, and a brand needs to use all of those touchpoints, often collected by different parts of the organization, and then add in that third party data to really understand the consumers. In terms of specific use cases, there's about three that come to mind. So first there's relevant advertising, and reaching the right customer, there's measurement, so being able to evaluate your advertising efforts, if you see an ad on, if I see an ad on my mobile, and then I buy by visiting a desktop website, understanding, or I get a direct mail piece, understanding that those interactions are all connected to the same person is critical for measurement. And then there's personalization, which includes improved customer experience amongst your own touchpoints with that consumer, personalized marketing communication, and then of course analytics, so those are the use cases we're seeing. >> Great, thank you Aimee. Now Matt, you can't really talk about data without talking about governance and compliance, and I remember back in 2006, when the federal rules of civil procedure went in, it was easy, the lawyers just said, "no, nobody can have access," but that's changed, and one of the things I like about what Snowflake's doing with the data cloud is it's really about democratizing access, but doing so in a way that gives people confidence that they only have access to the right data. So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you're thinking about this topic, what you're doing to help customers navigate, which has traditionally been such a really challenging problem. >> Another great question, this is where I think the major disruption is happening. And what Aimee described, being able to join together first and third party datasets, being able to do this was always a challenge, because data had to be moved around, I had to ship my first party data to the other side, and the third party data had to be shipped to me, and being able to join those datasets together was problematic at best, and now with the focus on privacy and protecting PII, this is something that has to change, and the good news is, with the data cloud, data does not have to move. Data can stay where it belongs, Experian can keep its data, Experian's customers can hold onto their data, yet the data can be joined together on this universal, global platform that we call the data cloud. On top of that, and particularly with the regulations that are coming out that are going to prevent data from being collected on either a mobile device or as cookies on web browsers, new approaches, and we're seeing this a lot in our space, both in financials and media, is to set up these data clean rooms, where both sides can give access to one another, but not have to reveal any PII to do that join. This is going to be huge, now you actually can protect your customers' and your consumers' private identities, but still accomplish that join that Aimee mentioned, to be able to relate the cause and effect of these campaigns, and really understand the signals that these datasets are trying to say about one another, again without having to move data, without having to reveal PII, we're seeing this happening now, this is the next big thing, that we're going to see explode over the months and years to come. >> I totally agree, massive changes coming in public policy in this area, and we only have a few minutes left, and I wonder if for our audience members that are looking for some advice, what's the, Aimee, what's the one thing you'd recommend they start doing differently, or consider putting in place that's going to set them up for success over the next decade? >> Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think, I always say, first, harness all of your first party data across all touchpoints, get that first party data in one place and working together, second, connect that data with trusted third parties, and Matt suggested some ways to do that, and then third, always put the customer first, speak their language, where and when they want to be reached out to, and use the information you have to really create a better customer experience for your customers. >> Matt, what would you add to that? Bring us home, if you would. >> Applications. The idea that data, your data can now be pulled into your own business applications the same way that Netflix and Spotify are pulled into your consumer and lifestyle applications, again, without data moving, these personalized application experiences is what I encourage everyone to be thinking about from first principles. What would you do in your next app that you're going to build, if you had all your consumers, if the consumers had access to their data in the app, and not having to think about things from scratch, leverage the data cloud, leverage these service providers like Experian, and build the applications of tomorrow. >> I'm super excited when I talk to practitioners like yourselves, about the future of data, guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, it was a really a pleasure having you, and I hope we can continue this conversation in the future. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Alright, thank you for watching, keep it right there, we got great content, and tons of content coming at the Snowflake data cloud summit, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, keep it right there.

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. Hi, welcome back. I'm Stu middleman. And this is a cube conversation digging in with, talking about what they're doing to help people. Yeah. Really bringing some of the networking ideals to cloud native environment, both know in the cloud, in the data centers program, Krishna penny. He is the vice president of software. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for talking to me. Alright, so, so Krishna the pin Sandow team, uh, you know, very well known in the industry three, uh, you innovation. Yeah. Especially in the networking world. Give us a little bit about your background specifically, uh, how long you've been part of this team and, uh, you know, but, uh, you know, you and the team, you know? Yeah. >>And Sando. Yup. Um, so, uh, I'm VP of software in Sandow, um, before Penn Sarno, before founding concern, though, I worked in a few startups in CME networks, uh, newer systems and Greenfield networks, all those three startups have been acquired by Cisco. Um, um, my recent role before this, uh, uh, this, this company was a, it was VP of engineering and Cisco, uh, I was responsible for a product called ACA, which is course flagship SDN tonic. Mmm. So I mean, when, why did we find a phone, uh, Ben Sandoz? So when we were looking at the industry, uh, the last, uh, a few years, right? The few trends that are becoming clear. So obviously we have a lot of enterprise background. We were watching, you know, ECA being deployed in the enterprise data centers. One sore point for customers from operational point of view was installing service devices, network appliances, or storage appliances. >>So not only the operational complexity that this device is bringing, it's also, they don't give you the performance and bandwidth, uh, and PPS that you expect, but traffic, especially from East West. So that was one that was one major issue. And also, if you look at where the intelligence is going, has been, this has been the trend it's been going to the edge. The reason for that is the motors or switches or the devices in the middle. They cannot handle the scale. Yeah. I mean, the bandwidths are growing. The scale is growing. The stateful stuff is going in the network and the switches and the appliances not able to handle it. So you need something at the edge close to the application that can handle, uh, uh, this kind of, uh, services and bandwidth. And the third thing is obviously, you know, x86, okay. Even a few years back, you know, every two years, you know, you're getting more transistors. >>I mean, obviously the most lined it. And, uh, we know we know how that, that part is going. So the it's cycles are more valuable and we don't want to use them for this network services Mmm. Including SDN or firewalls or load balancer. So NBME, mutualization so looking at all these trends in the industry, you know, we thought there is a good, uh, good opportunity to do a domain specific processor for IO and build products around it. I mean, that's how we started Ben signed off. Yeah. So, so Krishna, it's always fascinating to watch. If you look at startups, they are often yeah. Okay. The time that they're in and the technologies that are available, you know, sometimes their ideas that, you know, cakes a few times and, you know, maturation of the technology and other times, you know, I'll hear teams and they're like, Oh, well we did this. >>And then, Oh, wow. There was this new innovation came out that I wish I had add that when I did this last time. So we do, a generation. Oh, wow. Talking about, you know, distributed architectures or, you know, well, over a decade spent a long time now, uh, in many ways I feel edge computing is just, you know, the latest discussion of this, but when it comes to, and you know, you've got software, uh, under, under your purview, um, what are some of the things that are available for that might not have been, you know, in your toolkit, you know, five years ago. Yeah. So the growth of open source software has been very helpful for us because we baked scale-out microservices. This controller, like the last time I don't, when we were building that, you know, we had to build our own consensus algorithm. >>We had to build our own dishwasher database for metrics and humans and logs. So right now, uh, we, I mean, we have, because of open source thing, we leverage CD elastic influx in all this open source technologies that you hear, uh, uh, since we want to leverage the Kubernetes ecosystem. No, that helped us a lot at the same time, if you think about it. Right. But even the software, which is not open source, close source thing, I'm maturing. Um, I mean, if you talk about SDN, you know, seven APS bank, it was like, you know, the end versions of doing off SDN, but now the industry standard is an ADPN, um, which is one of the core pieces of what we do we do as Dean solution with DVA. Um, so, you know, it's more of, you know, the industry's coming to a place where, you know, these are the standards and this is open source software that you could leverage and quickly innovate compared to building all of this from scratch, which will be a big effort for us stocked up, uh, to succeed and build it in time for your customer success. >>Yeah. And Krishna, I, you know, you talk about open forum, not only in the software, the hardware standards. Okay. Think about things, the open compute or the proliferation of, you know, GPS and, uh, everything along that, how was that impact? I did. So, I mean, it's a good thing you're talking about. For example, we were, we are looking in the future and OCP card, but I do know it's a good thing that SEP card goes into a HP server. It goes into a Dell software. Um, so pretty much, you know, we, we want to, I mean, see our goal is to enable this platform, uh, that what we built in, you know, all the use cases that customer could think of. Right. So in that way, hardware, standardization is a good thing for the industry. Um, and then same thing, if you go in how we program the AC, you know, we at about standards of this people, programming, it's an industry consortium led by a few people. >>Um, we want to make sure that, you know, we follow the standards for the customer who's coming in, uh, who wants to program it., it's good to have a standards based thing rather than doing something completely proprietary at the same time you're enabling innovations. And then those innovations here to push it back to the open source. That's what we trying to do with before. Yeah. Excellent. I've had some, some real good conversations about before. Um, and, and the way, uh, and Tondo is, is leveraging that, that may be a little bit differently. You know, you talk about standards and open source, oftentimes it's like, well, is there a differentiator there, there are certain parts of the ecosystem that you say, well, kind of been commodified. Mmm. Obviously you're taking a lot of different technologies, putting them together, uh, help, help share the uniqueness. Okay. And Tondo what differentiates, what you're doing from what was available in the market or that I couldn't just cobbled together, uh, you know, a bunch of open source hardware and software together. >>Yeah. I mean, if you look at a technologist, I think the networking that both of us are very familiar with that. If you want to build an SDN solution, or you can take a, well yes. Or you can use exhibit six and, you know, take some much in Silicon and cobble it together. But the problem is you will not get the performance and bandwidth that you're looking for. Okay. So let's say, you know, uh, if you want a high PPS solution or you want a high CPS solution, because the number of connections are going for your IOT use case or Fiji use case, right. If you, uh, to get that with an open source thing, without any assist, uh, from a domain specific processor, your performance will be low. So that is the, I mean, that's once an enterprise in the cloud use case state, as you know, you're trying to pack as many BMCs containers in one set of word, because, you know, you get charged. >>I mean, the customer, uh, the other customers make money based on that. Right? So you want to offload all of those things into a domain specific processor that what we've built, which we call the TSC, which will, um, which we'll, you know, do all the services at pretty much no cost to accept a six. I mean, it's to six, you'll be using zero cycles, a photo doing, you know, features like security groups or VPCs, or VPN, uh, or encryption or storage virtualization. Right. That's where that value comes in. I mean, if you count the TCO model using bunch of x86 codes or in a bunch of arm or AMD codes compared to what we do. Mmm. A TCO model works out great for our customers. I mean, that's why, you know, there's so much interest in a product. Excellent. I'm proud of you. Glad you brought up customers, Christina. >>One of the challenges I have seen over the years with networking is it tends to be, you know, a completely separate language that we speak there, you know, a lot of acronyms and protocols and, uh, you know, not necessarily passable to people outside of the silo of networking. I think back then, you know, SDN, uh, you know, people on the outside would be like, that stands for still does nothing, right? Like networking, uh, you know, mumbo jumbo there for people outside of networking. You know what I think about, you know, if I was going to the C suite of an enterprise customer, um, they don't necessarily care about those networking protocols. They care about the, you know, the business results and the product Liberty. How, how do you help explain what pen Sandow does to those that aren't, you know, steeped in the network, because the way I look at it, right? >>What is customer looking? But yeah, you're writing who doesn't need, what in cap you use customer is looking for is operational simplicity. And then he wants looking for security. They, it, you know, and if you look at it sometimes, you know, both like in orthogonal, if you make it very highly secure, but you make it like and does an operational procedure before you deploy a workload that doesn't work for the customer because in operational complexity increases tremendously. Right? So it, we are coming in, um, is that we want to simplify this for the customer. You know, this is a very simple way to deploy policies. There's a simple way to deploy your networking infrastructure. And in the way we do it is we don't care what your physical network is, uh, in some sense, right? So because we are close to the server, that's a very good advantage. >>We have, we have played the policies before, even the packet leaves the center, right? So in that way, he knows his fully secure environment and we, and you don't want to manage each one individually, we have this, okay, Rockwell PSM, which manages, you know, all this service from a central place. And it's easy to operationalize a fabric, whether you talk about upgrades or you talk about, you know, uh, deploying new services, it's all driven with rest API, and you can have a GUI, so you can do it a single place. And that's where, you know, a customer's value is rather than talking about, as you're talking about end caps or, you know, exactly the route to port. That is not the main thing that, I mean, they wake up every day, they wake up. Have you been thinking about it or do I have a security risk? >>And then how easy for me is to deploy new, uh, in a new services or bring up new data center. Right. Okay. Krishna, you're also spanning with your product, a few different worlds out. Yeah. You know, traditionally yeah. About, you know, an enterprise data center versus a hyperscale public cloud and ed sites, hi comes to mind very different skillset for management, you know, different types of okay. Appointments there. Mmm. You know, I understand right. You were going to, you know, play in all of those environments. So talk a little bit about that, please. How you do that and, you know, you know, where you sit in, in that overall discussion. Yes. So, I mean, a number one rule inside a company is we are driven by customers and obviously not customer success is our success. So, but given said that, right. What we try to do is that we try to build a platform that is kind of, you know, programmable obviously starting from, you know, before that we talked about earlier, but it's also from a software point of view, it's kind of plugable right. >>So when we build a software, for example, at cloud customers, and they use BSC, they use the same set of age KPI's or GSP CRS, TPS that DSC provides their controller. But when we ship the same, uh, platform, what enterprise customers, we built our own controller and we use the same DC APS. So the way we are trying to do is things is fully leverage yeah. In what we do for enterprise customers and cloud customers. Mmm. We don't try to reinvent the wheel. Uh, obviously at the same time, if you look at the highest level constructs from a network perspective, right. Uh, audience, for his perspective, what are you trying to do? You're trying to provide connectivity, but you're trying to avoid isolation and you're trying to provide security. Uh, so all these constructs we encapsulated in APA is a, which, you know, uh, in some, I, some, some mostly like cloud, like APS and those APIs are, are used, but cloud customers and enterprise customers, and the software is built in a way of it. >>Any layer is, can be removed on any layer. It can be hard, right? Because it's not interested. We don't want to be multiple different offers for different customers. Right. Then we will not scale. So the idea when we started the software architecture, is that how we make it pluggable and how will you make the program will that customer says, I don't want this piece of it. You can put them third party piece on it and still integrate, uh, at a, at a common layer with using. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Krishna, you know, I have a little bit of appreciation where some of the hard work, what your team has been doing, you know, a couple of years in stealth, but, you know, really accelerating from, uh, you know, the announcement coming out of stealth, uh, at the end of 2019. Yeah. Just about half a year, your GA with a major OEM of HPE, definitely a lot of work that needs to be done. >>It brings us to, you know, what, what are you most proud about from the work that your team's doing? Uh, you know, we don't need to hear any, you know, major horror stories, but, you know, there always are some of them, you know, not holes or challenges that, uh, you know, often get hidden yeah. Behind the curtain. Okay. I mean, personally, I'm most proud of the team that we've made. Um, so, uh, you know, obviously, you know, uh, our executors have it good track record of disrupting the market multiple times, but I'm most proud of the team because the team is not just worried about that., uh, that, uh, even delegate is senior technologist and they're great leaders, but they're also worried about the customer problem, right? So it's always about, you know, getting the right mix, awfully not execution combined with technology is when you succeed, that is what I'm most proud of. >>You know, we have a team with, and Cletus running all these projects independently, um, and then releasing almost we have at least every week, if you look at all our customers, right. And then, you know, being a small company doing that is a, Hmm, it's pretty challenging in a way. But we did, we came up with methodologists where we fully believe in automation, everything is automated. And whenever we release software, we run through the full set of automation. So then we are confident that customer is getting good quality code. Uh, it's not like, you know, we cooked up something and that they should be ready and they need to upgrade to the software. That's I think that's the key part. If you want to succeed in this day and age, uh, developing the features at the velocity that you would want to develop and still support all these customers at the same time. >>Okay. Well, congratulations on that, Christian. All right. Final question. I have for you give us a little bit of guidance going forward, you know, often when we see a company out and we, you know, to try to say, Oh, well, this is what company does. You've got a very flexible architecture, lot of different types of solutions, what kind of markets or services might we be looking at a firm, uh, you know, download down the road a little ways. So I think we have a long journey. So we have a platform right now. We already, uh, I mean, we have a very baby, we are shipping. Mmm Mmm. The platforms are really shipping in a storage provider. Uh, we are integrating with the premier clouds, public clouds and, you know, enterprise market, you know, we already deployed a distributed firewall. Some of the customers divert is weird firewall. >>So, you know, uh, so if you take this platform, it can be extendable to add in all the services that you see in data centers on clubs, right. But primarily we are driven from a customer perspective and customer priority point of view. Mmm. So BMW will go is even try to add more ed services. We'll try to add more storage features. Mmm. And then we, we are also this initial interest in service provider market. What we can do for Fiji and IOT, uh, because we have the flexible platform. We have the, see, you know, how to apply this platform, this new application, that's where it probably will go into church. All right. Well, Krishna not a penny vice president of software with Ben Tondo. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, sir. It was great talking to you. All right. Be sure to check out the cube.net. You can find lots of interviews from Penn Sundo I'm Stu Miniman and thank you. We're watching the cute.

>> Announcer: Live, from Washington D.C. It's Cube Conversations, with John Furrier. >> Hello there, welcome to the special Cube Conversation, I'm John Furrier with the Cube here in Washington D.C. at the headquarters of Amazon Web Services Public Sector, here in Arlington, Virginia, right around the corner from D.C. Our next guest is Robert Groat, with the Executive Vice President of Technology at Smartronix, a service provider in Cloud and an IT. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you John. >> So we're in D.C. and the Cube's getting the lay of the land, so much innovation happening around Cloud and disruption, you got one group going, scratching their heads, wondering what's happening, some groups saying what happened, and you got people making it happen, right? >> Exactly. >> What's the big "ah-ha" moment people might not know looking into D.C. now? What is the real trend? What are the people that are making it, what are they doing? Is it the Cloud, is it mobile, is it data-driven? >> Yeah, I think it's all of those components, but I think one of the things that you're really seeing is that the Cloud is enabling these organizations, these traditional organizations, to really transform in the way that they deliver and consume IT services. IT services have been a mess in this town for a long time, the contracting process has been a mess, some of the things that happened, some of the smaller organizations have had a chance to be really innovative and take a leadership role in delivering services to the community and not just the large beltway bandits that we've seen in the past. So I think some of the "ah-ha" moments are probably around, you know, we've been working, Smartronix has been working with the public sector and Cloud since 2009, so really one of the early pioneers, and we used to run across all of these issues where security was the blocker, and it would take a long time to convince people that the security in the Cloud really was what it needed to be. Now we're seeing, in terms of an "ah-ha" moment, we're seeing that security is the enabler, we're seeing that these organizations are really embracing the fact that you can do things in the Cloud from the security perspective that you could never do before. And I think that you've got this kind of next generation of managed service provider that embraces those tenants of how to manage services and manage security services and it's really disrupting the way that the Federal Government's done business in the past. >> You know, we were at the Public Sector Summit last June, and we were commeters, the first time the Cube was at an event, which we had been to other ones before that, but it was very clear to me that we're in a no-excuses government at this point, cause there's a lot of forcing functions. You have one, connected social media, and everyone's like hey, why can't I do that over there? It's like the old iPhone moment on the enterprise. Why can't I bring me iPhone to work? You know, years ago, right? >> Exactly. >> Now you have security looking down the barrel, and IOT happening, and you don't have a thing, so you have Swiss cheese called malware, attacking every hole, every corner of the network potentially is compromised. >> Exactly. >> So security is forcing, and we're at cyberwar. >> We are! >> You can't deny that, so why isn't the Congress emergency funding for more security, or is it happening? >> Well, they need to be, but if you look at, if you look at the way traditional data centers are built and on-premise infrastructure is built, you had a variety of contractors coming in, each kind of doing their own thing, you had this heterogeneous infrastructure that was all built and kind of tangled together, and there wasn't this great way of being able to look at Cloud services or be able to look at a Greenfield environment, and have everything that's happening in that environment aware to you. And that's really what the Cloud is enabling. You're actually. >> You mean program the whole infrastructure? >> Programmable infrastructure, exactly. You're actually, every single thing that happens in a Cloud environment ends up being an API call. Each one of those API calls ends up being logged, and when you have every event that's happening in your environment, you don't have that in a traditional data center. When you have every event that's happening in that environment, and you can apply some of these new primatives that AWS is providing around machine learning and AI, now you're using those to attack those vectors that you're talking about, to protect critical infrastructure, really in ways that you couldn't do before, and you can actually, with this programmable infrastructure, you can actually really look at being able to respond to events, and have autonomic response and remediation of these events. So when something happens, you've programmatically defined how you're going to respond to those events, and it's repeatable. >> Yeah, one of the things I'll share with you, I did an interview with, I think it was the CTO or the CSO of Fortinet, which is a security vendor, >> Mhmm. >> And we were talking, and we were totally geeking out, he was like the complexity of the Cloud actually is an advantage in the security, and I said what do you mean by that? He goes, most of the hackers will focus the main payload of their vector on one particular item, and that's where all their energy, if they have to hunt too far, they kind of give up.6 >> It's just like on the battlefield. The surface area of attack matters, and when you have such a wide, vast surface area of attack, there's no way for them to. >> So you agree with that? >> 100% agree with that. >> How is that, how do I turn that complexity, obviously there's a main range of tools to make the Cloud easier, but complexity of scale, how do I turn that as an IT person or a manager, or an executive, into a security advantage? What do I do? >> So the security advantage is that every time you build a rule, every time you think about compliance and maintaining compliance for your organization, you're actually starting to build knowledge and a new capability. That can be applied programmatically now, across your entire set of enclaves that you use for managing infrastructure, so when we develop one thing as a manage service provider, to make sure we're meeting some kind of compliance mandate, that now can be shared across all of our clients in the space, and this can start to really help create that protective ops infrastructure. >> So you scale more observation space to get more data, that gives you also an advantage. >> It does, it does. And then when you can actually take that data and use it to train to understand where these advance persistent threats are, you can then really start to do things, that this was the province of really large organizations, only in the past. And now AWS has democratized that ability to use these tools around artificial intelligence and machine learning to improve security. >> Robert, you can't go back five years without hearing, are you kidding me, that Cloud is insecure. Turns out, Cloud is becoming a better security paradigm than building on site because of human error or other force majors or any kind of other acts. >> That's exactly right. Anybody who's looking at it from a security perspective and thinks that they can have the same kind of security that, you know, a multi-billion dollar company like AWS can provide, they're mistaken. And the main thing around that is, they don't have transparency to every event happening in that environment, and that's what you get when you start to utilize Cloud services. >> Yeah, I think Verizon was the first company that notified me that this might be the trend. I think this was like a 2011 time-frame. Don't discount a multi-tenant Cloud. >> Exactly. >> Like okay, and they realized and have been tracking that like okay, so big trends in technology, tailwinds and headwinds. What trends are tailwinds for the growth, and what are the headwinds, what's the blockers? >> Well the tailwinds is the fact that I think everybody's kind of not resigned to the fact, but they're seeing the Cloud first as probably a strategy that they should take. And, you know, we've seen the government be laggards in the past with adopting new technology, I think what they're seeing now, especially in the Department of Defense, and then some of the Federal organizations that we're working with, they're actually seeing that perhaps their adversaries are having a competitive advantage by moving into the Cloud, maybe they should look at the competitive advantages that they should have moving into the Cloud infrastructure. Not just security, but the ability to be innovative and agile and deliver services much faster than they've ever been able to deliver them before. >> Well we had a different approach and automated actual code bases so that you can actually deploy services and automatically code them up with glue instantly, so it's interesting. >> That is one of the fundamental things, that when you start looking at infrastructure's code, and you look at things that you can make repeatable in these environments, then look at how many times the government's probably built out a particular enterprise software staff, whether it's Share-A-Plan or >> Authentication. >> It all gets repeated, once that gets cauterized and done right with the right subject-matter experts, then you can start to create service catalogs that these organizations can use and rapidly deploy things in a repeatable and manageable fashion. >> This is an open-source ethos. >> It is. >> We're on the shoulders of others, why replicate something that's already a service, throw it in a service catalog, make it a micro-service, make it an API. >> And that culture's finally transformed in the Federal Government, that didn't used to be the culture, right? >> People must be like, finally! >> It used to be, I have to have my arms wrapped around this, I have to be able to understand everything that's happening, and you would always hear some of these larger organizations say, you know, I don't want to have vendor lock-in. Even now sometimes, you'll see it a little bit. I don't want go with, maybe AWS, because I'll have vendor lock-in, yet for dozens of years, they've been locked into proprietary databases to commercial enterprise platforms, these behemoth software things that AWS again has helped to democratize by providing these primitives and allowing people to build things backed on open-source. >> You're speaking our language, we talk about this all the time, the lock-in, there's always a lock-in spec somewhere, if it's good, the issue is proprietary software and switching costs. >> Yes. >> And choice, right? So that the dimensions to evaluate for customers that we've seen that's successful is, okay, I don't mind lock-in if it's a damn good solution, I'm going to lock that in. >> Right. >> But I have choice. This is going to be interesting, right? So the multi-cloud conversation that is going on around the DOD is interesting, we've been reporting and out in the field, we've been getting the data coming in, saying hey, this DOD kind of overture is interesting, because now if they take the same route as the CIA, we're talking about massive infiltration of Amazon Web Services across the government, because that CIA's kicking ass and taking names with Amazon. >> Mhmm. >> Now you've got the DOD looking down potentially a single-cloud option, other vendors are crying foul calling, we need spec in policy, which is a hijack model of putting in multi-cloud requirement. What's your thoughts on that? Should it be requirement or should we jump off? >> Well, for one, when you have innovators in a space and they take a lead in the space, you're going to get, that's a forcing function for other companies to compete, and that's not a bad thing, it really isn't. And a lot of these organizations, there might be reasons that are very valid reasons for them to consider multi-cloud, or even consider what they have within their own on-premise infrastructure. You've got, you know, tens and tens of years of legacy technical debt in your data center, there's not a reason to pull everything into the Cloud environment, there might be reasons to just let that die a slow death and sunset that. >> Got the mainframe. >> And, like the mainframe stuff, for them to look at even migrating mainframe capabilities into the Cloud, it's a lot of rewrite, it's a lot of things that need to happen. And maybe there's ways that you can extend that on-premise environment, breathe a little bit of life into the on-premise environment, while you're building out your new infrastructure. And that's probably the right path to take. >> And some people choose to have Cobalt code running banks right now, and just because they have that process. >> And it's working, and you know, they'll inevitably come to the time that they have to do that migration. >> Great commentary, great to have you on, great to chat about the technology trends. Smartronix, what are you guys doing, how do you guys fit into this trend, take a minute to talk about what you guys do, and your opportunity. >> Sure, Smartronix is about a 20-year-old company, we talk about some of our competitors will talk about being born in the Cloud, we were actually pretty much born in the enterprise, we helped the Marine Core establish their network operation security command, 20 some years ago, we were first to kind of lead virtualization technologies to help the forward-deployed forces move in and create kind of these tactical data centers, mobile data centers that can move into theater, so it's always kind of been on the forefront of network operations and cybersecurity, and innovative solutions, innovative use of technology, in government. >> The battle field's an instant case of how to deploy. >> Absolutely. >> You need wireless. >> Austere environments, you know, low-power, they used to bring trucks in to be able to set up their mobile data center, and we actually using virtualization technology back in 2004, you know. >> You got to push the envelope. >> You have to. >> Your job is to push the envelope. >> And that's really where I think Smartronix has done a really good job, is that we've helped these large organizations that are in very secure and highly-regulated compliance-driven environments, and utilize technology in innovative ways. More securely, and more optimally in these environments. So when we had a chance in 2009, to do a solution for President Obama at the time, they introduced the Recovery Act, they needed a website to track 750 billion dollars worth of funding. We came in with a pretty innovative solution. They said they had 10 weeks to build this, you're not going to do that in a data center environment. We came in with a solution that said on day one, we're going to utilize Amazon Web Services capabilities, we're going to build out the test endeavor while we build out the data center environment, and we're going to make your deadline by October 1st. And that was really the jumpstart of what we did. >> Do you meet your deadline? >> We absolutely did. >> What was that other website that you didn't actually get the deadline done, they had to bring in? >> Yeah, the healthcare. >> Oh, the Obama. >> So this one was recovery.gov, a very well-documented success, it ended up being the very first cloud-first initiative for the Federal Government. The very first government property running on public Cloud infrastructure, and then from there we migrated to >> Well, he doesn't get the credit he deserves on open government. >> He doesn't. >> He opened up data sets, he changed the game. >> He did, and again, that was, I think when you look at historically, when you look back at the CTOs and CIOs of the Federal Government at that time, they were really trying to look to see how commercial technologies could be applied in the government, how you could get that agility and innovation, and speed of business of commercial and do that in the Federal Government. And I think we embraced that at Smartronix pretty early on, and we were kind of on the leading edge sometimes of delivering this kind of abilities and services. >> Literally. So, you guys are the right group to call for IT to get modernized, because this is is problem. No one can hide anymore, there's no more excuses. And again, this is the lack of innovation. If you've been sitting around not innovating, now there's cyberwars attacking, you got cybersecurity, IT needs to transform, they got to do it like really fast. >> You got all of these competing pressures, security, you've got time, you've got cost, you've got capabilities, all of those things competing. You need to have a trusted advisor, a partner, to get you through that. What Smartronix has created, we call it our four pillars, and these are very simple pillars, but it's really really required for really looking at Cloud services strategy. You have to help the organization define what the business outcomes are that they want in these environments, help them think through what the roadmap and strategy is to get there, and then when you go to the second pillar, which is design, there's unique ways to design things to make it cloud-native, to utilize cloud-native services that also, when you get to the implementation and migration point, you're building these in a programmatic way that makes it easier to operate and manage, and that's the fourth pillar. So if you can get these organizations to think from strategy all the way through to run, all the way through to operations management, you're going to have the more effective organization and better services in your environment. >> Robert Groat, Executive Vice President of Technology at Smartronix, thanks for spending that time with me. >> Thanks, John. >> I'm John Furrier with the Cube, in Washington D.C., actually in Arlington, Virginia at Amazon Web Services Public Sector headquarters, thanks for watching. (bright music)

(bright orchestral music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to theCUBE Conversations here in Palo Alto Studios. For theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media inc. My next guest is Bruce Arthur, who's the Vice President of engineering at Banter.ai. Good friend, we've known each other for years, VP of engineering, developer, formerly at Apple. >> Yes. >> Worked on all the big products; the iPad-- had the the tin foil on your windows back in the day during Steve Jobs' awesome run there. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, it's good to be here. >> Yeah, great, you've got a ton of experience and I want to get your perspective as a developer, VP of engineering, entrepreneur, you're doing a startup around AI. Let's have a little banter. >> Sure. >> Banter.ai is a little bit a chat bot, but the rage is DevOps. Software really models change, infrastructure as code, cloud computing. Really a renaissance of software development going on right now. >> It is, it's changing a lot. >> What's your view on this? >> Well, so, years and years ago you would work really hard on your software. You would package it up in a box and you'd send it over the wall and you hope it works. And that seems very quaint now because now you write your software, you deploy it the first day, and you change it six times that day, and you're A/B-testing it, you're driving it forward, it's so much more interactive. It does require a different skillset. It also doesn't, how do I say this carefully? It used to be very easy to be craft, to have high craft and make a very polished product, but you didn't know if it was going to work. Today you know if it's going to work, but you often don't get to making sure it's high quality, high craft, high value. >> John: So, the iteration >> Exactly, the iteration runs so fast, which is highly valuable, but you sort of just a little bit of you miss the is this really something I am proud of and I can really work with it because you know, now the product definition can change so quickly, which is awesome but it is a big change. >> And that artisan crafting thing is interesting, but now some are saying that the UX side is interesting because, if you get the back end working, and you're iterating, you can still bring that artisan flavor back. We heard that cloud computing vendors like Amazon, and I was just in China for Alibaba, they're trying to bring this whole design artisan culture back. Your thoughts on the whole artisan craft in software, because now you have two stages, you have deploy, iterate, and then ultimately polish. >> Right, so, I think it's interesting, it used to be, engineering is so expensive and time-consuming. You have to design it upfront and you make one version of it and you're done. That has changed now that engineering has gotten easier. You have better tools, we have better things, you can make six versions and that used to be, so back in the day at Apple, you would make six versions, five of which Steve would hate and throw out, and eventually they would get better and better and better and then you would have something you're proud of. Now those are just exposed. Now everybody sees those, it's a very different process. So you, I think, the idea that you. Engineering used to be this scarce resource. It's becoming easier now to have many versions and have more engineers working on stuff, so now it is much more can I have three design teams, can they compete, can they make all good ideas, and then who's going to be the editor? Who evaluates them and decides I like this from this one, I like that, and now let's put this together to make the right product. >> So, at Apple, you mentioned Steve would reject, well, that's well-documented. >> Sure. >> It's publicly out there that he would like, really look at the design-side. Was it Waterfall-based, was it Agile, Scrum, did you guys, was it like, do you lay it all out in front of him and he points at it? What were some of the work flows like with Steve Jobs? >> So, when he was really excited about something he would want to meet with them every week. He'd want to see progress every week. He'd give lots of feedback every week, there'd be new ideas. It was very Steve-focused. I think the more constructive side of it was the design teams were always thinking about What can we build, how do we put it in front of him, and I remember there was a great quote from a designer that said. It's not that Steve designs great things, it's that you show him three things, and if you throw him three bad things, he'll pick the least bad. If you show him three great things, he'll pick the most great, But it's not, it was more about the, you've got to iterate in the process, you've got to try ideas, you take ideas from different people and some of them, like, they sound like a great idea. When we talk, it sounds really good. You build it, and you're like, that's just not, that's just not right. So, you want, how do I say this? You don't want to lock yourself in up front. You want to imagine them, you want to build them, you want to try 'em. >> And that's, I mean, I've gotten to know the family over the years, too, through some of the Palo Alto interactions, and that's the kind of misperception of Steve Jobs, was that he was the guy. He enabled people, he had that ethos that-- >> He was the editor, it's an old school journalism metaphor, which is, he had ideas, he wanted, but he also, he ran the team. He wanted to have people bring their ideas and come in. And then he decided, this is good, this is not. That's better, you can do better, let's try this. Or, sometimes, this whole thing stinks. It's just not going anywhere. So, like, it was much more of that. Now it's applied to software, and he was a marketing genius, about sort of knowing what people were going to go for, but there was a little bit of a myth for it, that there's one man designing everything. That is a very saleable marketing story. >> The mythical man. (laughs) >> Well, it's powerful, but no, there's a lot of people, and getting the best work of all those people. >> I mean, he's said on some of the great videos I've watched on YouTube over the years, Hire the best people, only work with the best, and they'll bring good stuff to the table. Now, I want to bring that kind of metaphor, one step further for this great learning lesson, again it's all well-documented on YouTube. Plenty of Steve videos there, but now when you go to DevOps, you mention the whole quality thing and you got to ship fast, iterate, you know there's a lot of moving fast break stuff as Zuckerberg would say, of Facebook, although he's edited his tune to say move fast and be reliable. (laughing) Welcome to the enterprise, welcome to software and operations. This is now a scale game at the enterprise side 'cause, you know, you start seeing open source software grow so much now, where a lot of the intellectual property might be only 10% of software. >> Right. >> You might be using other pieces. You're packaging it so that when you get it to the market, how do bring that culture? How do you get that innovation of, Okay, I'm iterating fast, how do I maintain the quality. What are some of your thoughts on that? Because you've got machine learning out there, you've got these cool things happening. >> Yup. So, you want, how do I say this? You just, you really need to leave time to schedule it. It needs to be in your list. There's a lot of figuring out what are we going to build and you have to try things, iterate things, see if they resonate with consumers. See if they resonate with people who want to pay. See if they resonate with investors. You have to figure than out fast, but then you have to know that, okay, this is a good prototype. Now I have to make it work better because the first version wouldn't scale well, now it has to scale, now it has to work right for people, now you have to have a review of: here's the bugs, here's the things that are not working. Why does this chatbot stop responding sometimes? What is causing that? Now, the great story is, with good DevOps, you actually have a system that's very good at finding and tracking those problems. In the old world, so the old world with the shrink-wrap software, you'd throw it over the fence. If it misbehaves, you will never know. Today you know. You've got alerts, you've got pagers going off, you've got logs, >> It's instrumented big-time. >> Yeah, exactly, you can find that stuff. So, since you can actually make, you can make very high-quality software because you have so much more data about what's going on with it, it's nice. And actually, chatbot software has this fascinating little side effect, with, because it's all chats and it's all text, there are no irreproducible bugs. You can go back and look at exactly what happened. I have a recording, I know exactly what happened, I know exactly what came in, I know what came out, and then I know that this failure happened. So, it's very reproducible, sort of, it's nice you can, it doesn't always work this way, but it's very easy to track down problems. >> It's event-based, it's really easy to manage. >> Exactly, and it's just text. You can just read it. It's not like I have to debug hacks, it's just these things were said and this thing died. >> No core dumps. (laughs) >> No, there's nothing that requires sophisticated analysis, well the code is one thing, but like, the sequence of events is very human-readable, very understandable. >> Alright, so let's talk about the younger generation. So, we've been around the block, you and I. We've talked, certainly many times around town, about the shifts, and we love these new waves. A lot of great waves coming in, we've seen many waves. What's going on, in your mind, with the younger generation? Because this is a, some exciting things happening. Decentralized internet. >> Bruce: Yup. >> There's blockchain, getting all the attention. Outside of the hype, Alpha VCs, Alpha engineers, Alpha entrepreneurs are really honing in on blockchain because they see the potential. >> Sure. >> Early people are seeing it. Then you've got cloud, obviously unlimited compute potentially, the new, you know, kind of agile market. All these young guys, they never shipped, actually never loaded Linux on a server. (laughing) So, like, what are you seeing for the younger guys? And what do you see as someone who's experienced, looking down at the next, you know, 20 year run we see. >> So, I think what I see that's most exciting is that we now have people solving very non-technical problems with technology. I think it used to be, you could build a computer, you could write code, but then, like, your space was limited to the computer in front of you. Like, I can do input and outputs. I can put things on the screen, I can make a video game, but it's in this box. Now everyone's thinking of much bigger, Solving bigger problems. >> John: Yeah, healthcare, we're seeing verticals. >> Yeah, healthcare's a massive one. You can, operation things, shipping products. I mean, who would've thought Amazon was going to be delivering things, basically. I mean, they're using technology to solve the physical delivery of objects. That is, the space of what people are tackling is massive. It' no longer just about silicon and programming, it's sort of, any problem out there, there's someone trying to apply technology, which is awesome and I think that's because these people these youngsters, they're digital natives. >> Yeah. >> They've come to expect that, of course video conferencing works, of course all these other items work. That I just need to figure out how to solve problems with them, and I'm hopeful we're going to see more human-sized problems solved. I think, you know, we have, technology has maybe exacerbated a few things and dislocated, cost a lot of people jobs. Disconnected some people from other sort of stabilizing forces, >> Fake news. (laughs) >> Fake news, you know, we need-- >> John: It's consequences, side effects. >> I hope we get people solving those problems because fake news should now be hard to solve. They'll figure it out, I think, but, like, the idea is, we need to, technology does have a bit of a responsibility to solve, fix some of the crap that it broke. Actually, there's things that need, old structures, journalism is an old profession. >> Yeah. >> And it used to actually have all these wonderful benefits, but when the classified business went down the tubes, it took all that stuff down. >> Yeah. >> And there needs to be a venue for that. There needs to be new outlets for people to sort of do research, look things up, and hold people to account. >> Yeah, and hopefully some of our tools we'll be >> I hope so. >> pulling out at Silicon Angle you'll be seeing some new stuff. Let's talk about, like just in general, some of the fashionable coolness around engineering. Machine learning, AI obviously tops the list. Something that's not as sexy, or as innovative things. >> Sure. >> Because you have machines and industrial manufacturing plant equipment to people's devices. Obviously you worked at Apple, so you understand that piece, with the watch and everything. >> Yup, >> So you've got, that's an internet, we're things, people are things too. So, machines and people are at the edge of the network. So, you've got this new kind of concept. What gets you excited? Talk about how you feel about those trends. >> So, there's a ton going on there. I think what's amazing is the idea that all these sensors and switches and all the remote pieces can start to have smarts on them. I think the downside of that is some of the early IoT stuff, you know, has a whole open SSL stack in it. And, you know, that can be out of date, and when you have security problems with that now your light switch has access to your tax returns and that's not really what you want. So, I think there's definitely, there's a world coming, I think, at a technical level, we need to make operating systems and tools and networking protocols that aren't general purpose because general purpose tools are hackable. >> John: Yeah. >> I need to have a sensor and a switch that know how to talk to each other, and that's it. They can't rewrite code, they can't rewrite their firmware, they can't, like, I want to be able to know that, you have a nice office here, if somebody came in and tried to hack your switches, would you ever know? And the answer's like, you'd have no idea, but when you have things that are on your network and that serve you, if they're a general, if they're a little general purpose computing device, they're a mess. Like, you know, a switch is simple. A microphone, a microphone is simple. There's an output from it, it needs, I think we, >> So differentiated software for device. >> Well, let's get back to old school. You studied operating systems back in the day. >> Yeah. >> A process can do whatever the hell it wants. It can read from memory, it can write to disk, it can talk to all these buses. It's a very, it can do, it's very general purpose. I don't want that in my switch. I want my switch to be sort of, much more of these old little micro-controller. >> Bounded. >> Yeah, it's in a little box. I mean, so the phone and the Mac have something called Sandbox, which sort of says, you get a smaller view of the world. You get a little piece of the disk, you can't see everything else, and those are parts of it, but I think you need even more. You need, sort of, this really, I don't want a general purpose thing, I want a very specific thing that says I'm allowed to do this and I'm allowed to talk to that server; I don't have access to the internet. I've got access to that server. >> You mentioned operating systems. I mean, obviously I grew up in the computer science genre of the '80s and you did as well. That was a revolution around Unix. >> Yes. >> And then Berkeley, BSD, and all that stuff that happened around the systems world, operating systems, was really the pioneers in computing at that time. It's interesting with cloud, it's almost a throwback now to systems thinking. >> Bruce: It's true, yeah. >> You know, people looking at, and you're discussing it. >> Bruce: Yeah, Yeah. >> It's a systems problem. >> Yeah, it is. >> It's just not in a box. >> Right, and I think we witnessed the, let's get everyone a general purpose computer and see what they can do. And that was amazing, but now you're like I don't want everything to be a general I want very specific, I want very little thing, dedicated things that do this really well. I don't want my thermostat actually tracking when I'm in the house. You know, I want it to know, eh, maybe there's someone in the house, but I don't want it to know it's me. I don't want it reporting to Google what's going on. I want it to track my temperature and manage that. >> Our Wikibon team calls the term Unigrid, I call it hypergrid because essentially it's grid computer; there's no differentiation between on-premise and cloud. >> Right. >> It's one pool of resource of compute and things processes. >> It is, although I think, and that's interesting, you want that, but again you want it, how do I say this? I get a little nervous when all of my data goes to some cloud that I can't control. Like, I would love if, I'll put it this way. If I have a camera in my house, and imagine I put security cameras up, I want that to sort of see what's going on, I don't want it to publish the video to anywhere that's out of my control. If it publishes a summary that says, oh, like, someone came to your door, I'm like, okay, that's a good, reasonable thing to know and I would want to get that. So, Palo Alto recently added, there's traffic cameras that are looking at traffic, and they record video, but everyone's very nervous about that fact. They don't want to be recorded on video. So, the camera, this is actually really good, the camera only reports number of cars, number of bikes, number of pedestrians, just raw numbers. So you're pushing the processing down to the end and you only get these very anonymous statistics out of it and that's the right model. I've got a device, it can do a lot of sophisticated processing, but it gives nice summary data that is very public, I don't think anyone's really >> There's a privacy issue there that they've factored into the design? >> Yes, exactly. It's privacy and it's also the appropriateness of the data, you don't want, yeah, people don't want a camera watching them when they go by, but they're happy and they're like, oh, yeah, that street has a big increase in traffic, And there's a lot of, there were accidents here and there's people running red lights. That's valuable knowledge, not the fact that it's you in your Tesla and you almost hit me. No. (laughs) >> Yeah, or he's speeding, slow down. >> Exactly, yeah, or actually if you recorded speeders the fact that there's a lot of speeding is very interesting. Who's doing it, okay, people get upset if that's recorded. >> Yeah, I'm glad that Palo Alto is solving their traffic problem, Palo Alto problems, as we say. In general, security's been a huge issue. We were talking before we came on, about just the security nightmare. >> Bruce: Yes. >> A lot of companies are out there scratching their heads. There's so much of digital transformation happening, that's the buzzword in the industry. What does that mean from your standpoint? Because engineers are now moving to the front lines. Developers, engineering, because now there's a visibility to not just the software, it's an end goal. They call it outcome. Do you talk to customers a lot around, through your entrepreneurial venture, around trying to back requirements into product and yet deliver value? Do you get any insight from the field of kind of problems, you know, businesses are generally tryna solve with tech? >> So, that's interesting, I think when we try to start tech companies, we usually have ideas and then we go test that premise on customers. Perhaps I'm not as adaptable as I should be. We're not actually going to customers and asking them what they want. We're asking them if this is the kind of thing that would solve their problems. And usually they're happy to talk to us. The tough one, then, is then are they going to become paying customers, there's talking and there's paying, and they're different lines. >> I mean, certainly is validation. >> Exactly, that's when you really know that they care. It is, it's a tough question. I think there's always, there's a category of entrepreneur that's always very knowledgable about a small number of customers and they solve their problems, and those people are successful and they're often, They often are more services-based, but they're solving problems because they know people. They know a lot of people, they know what their paying point are. >> Alright, so here's the real question I want to know is, have you been back to Apple in the new building? >> Have I been to, I have not been in the spaceship. (laughing) I have not been in the spaceship yet. I actually understand that in order to have the event there, they actually had to stop work on the rest of the building because the construction process makes everything so dirty; and they did not want everyone to see dirty windows, so they actually halted the construction, they scrubbed down the trees, they had the event, and now it's, but now it's back. >> Now it's back to, >> So, I'll get there at some point. >> Bruce Arthur it the Vice President of Banter.ai, entrepreneur, formerly of Apple, good friend, Final question for you, just what are you excited about these days and as you look out at the tooling and the computer science and the societal impact that is seen with cloud and all these technologies, and open source, what do you, what are you excited about? >> I'm most excited, I think we actually have now enough computing resources and enough tools at hand that we can actually go back and tackle some harder computer science problems. I think there's things that used to be so big that you're like, well, that's just not, That's too much data, we could never solve that. That's too much, that would take, you know, that would take a hundred computers a hundred years to figure out. Those are problems now that are becoming very tractable, and I think it's been the rise of, yeah, it starts with Google, but some other companies that sort of really made these very large problems are now tractable, and they're now solvable. >> And open source, your opinion on open source these days? >> Open source is great. >> Who doesn't love more code? (laughs) >> Well, I should back this up, Open source is the fastest way to share and to make progress. There are times where you need what's called proprietary, but in other words valuable, when you need valuable engineers to work on something and, you know, not knowing the providence or where something comes from is a little sticky, I think there's going to be space for both. I think open source is big, but there's going to be-- >> If you have a core competency, you really want to code it. >> Exactly, you want to write that up and you-- >> You can still participate in the communities. >> Right, and I think open source is also, it's awesome when it's following. If there's something else in front, it follows very fast, it does a very good job. It's very thorough, sometimes it doesn't know where to go and it sort of meanders, and that's when other people have advantages. >> Collective intelligence. >> Exactly. >> Bruce, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it, good to see you. This is a Cube Conversation here in the Palo Alto studio, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Welcome to The Cube. It's a wonderful Tuesday and we're here talking to Craig Nunes who's the VP of marketing at Datrium. >> Good to be here. >> And Craig, you guys had an announcement today and the announcement particularly refers to the further convergence or the opportunity to further converge not only hardware but now increasingly operating environments specifically bringing some of the Red Hat ecosystem over to the Datrium product set. So why don't you tell us what happened? >> Sure, we've been making a great business with customers in the VMware environment. We debuted our new generation of convergence back last year and as we were picking up customers in vSphere, we're running into a number of them who were saying, "You know, God, this is awesome. I do have "some Linux stuff going on. "Can you guys help me out there? "I can't seem to find a modern converged platform to really take on both environments." And so that's precisely what we've done. We are announcing today that we've partnered with Red Hat to use their stack, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and their full Red Hat virtualization stack, run that on our DVX on our compute nodes alongside vSphere servers. Beyond that, because we observed there is a lot of activity going on in the container space. >> Peter: Just a little bit. >> CICD is becoming something that more and more folks are moving to. We've also partnered up with Docker and we're also going to provide bare metal container support with persistent volume plug-in for the platform. So this is all in one go, you now have really for the first time, a modern converged system that can handle what you're doing today with vSphere, probably handle what you're already involved in, but you're looking for way to bring this stuff together in your Red Hat environment. But then more importantly, you're kind of set up for where you're going with containers. >> So, when you say handle, Datrium has made some interesting decisions regarding how to solve some of the engineering problems associated with convergence. >> Craig: Yeah, yeah. >> Take us through a little bit about what it means to handle. >> Craig: Sure. >> What were you doing on VMware that you're now especially doing on the Red Hat ecosystem and will be doing as you move more closely towards containers? >> In the world of converged infrastructure, of course we started with kind of packaging convergence with arrays and servers. Hyper-convergence came along, really bringing storage into the x86 architecture, super cool idea in principle. The challenge with that is because storage is now part of your server, everything is stateful. Everything is a storage node and it's tougher to scale, it's tougher to service. Taking nothing away from the hyper-converged guys, it's great for single use case, great for edge, but we're really aiming for what people are trying to get done in the private cloud data center. So for that, we found that by separating the persistence, the durable capacity from the IO processing on the server, we could provide this wonderful converged platform that scales, that you can use any server you like, you can bring your blades, you could use our own compute nodes, whatever. It gives folks just a lot more freedom to get the job done. Servers are stateless like they were with your arrays but have all the benefits you're desiring with converged infrastructure. So, we brought that to vSphere and what folks have taken away is, "Wow, since everything "runs local on the server and Flash, "it's faster than an all-Flash array." Sure, cause there's no SAM, but it's all VM-based and brings all the simplicity you would expect from a hyper-converged platform only at scale and so what we're doing is taking that model to Linux and containers. Now, one relatively new thing we did just recently in addition to taking on VM consolidation and acceleration, we built right in all the data management capabilities you would need for back up and instant recovery, disaster recovery, archive, compliance, search, analytics, copy data management, right into the platform. So, really the virtualization guy, the DevOps guy or gal, whoever is running the applications can not only run them but protect them, share them, et cetera from one cockpit, one UI. So, we're really taking a whole load of stuff that folks have had to deal with, and tossing that for one very simple platform that scales as you grow. >> So are you bringing new services to the basic management console of Datrium and expanding that set of services across platforms. >> Exactly, that's correct. >> So talk to us about how you see this evolving as the whole world of containers comes out. Containers means, more of them, new security models. Today, most communication takes place through the VM. When you start talking about adding storage flexibility, data flexibility you guys are providing, it suggests that you've got some new ways of looking at containers. You've cooked up some new stuff. >> Craig: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. >> Talk to us a little bit about that. >> Here is where a modern platform really is important. Again, not to knock hyper-converged, but five or six years ago when that was born, it was pretty cool to manage things at a VM level, error virtualization was hot and heavy. As we move into containers, VM's are just not granular enough. In fact, folks want to be able to manage at this per container level. Arrays, we're talking about lens there. Hyper-converged is going to stop short at VM's. What we're bringing folks is a way to manage, in the VM side, VM's, V-discs, files that make up VM's, individual container persistent volumes so you can protect and share the way you need to. What we do, cause it's kind of a double-edged sword, you can manage everything at that level but now you've got thousands and thousands of them. We actually give you an opportunity to group those, what we call protection groups. Think of it as a policy group and you set it up around your applications. You set your policies per group. Through naming conventions, if you spin up a new VM or container, it's going to get included as a part of that group without you having to manually go in and assign it. So, we're effectively putting the capabilities in so you can manage tens of thousands of objects very simply. That is the world of containers, right? If you thought there were a lot of VM's, there's a whole lot more in the way of containers that will be there. >> One of the things that Datrium has done, correct me if I have this wrong but I believe I got it right, is one of the things Datrium has done is facilitated the kind of ANI addressability between storage or compute resources and data resources. >> Craig: Right. >> You know, the various of types of nodes that are in there. It used to have all the data inside of your server and that created some segmentation along those lines. In many respects, you created networks of resources that Datrium would manage in that way. Are you doing something similar now as we think about containers where you're literally describing a network of containers as part of that resource mix and being able to add things to that? Is that effectively what the group becomes? >> Yeah, the group of containers is completely independent of the servers that are hosting them so you can literally group a collection of containers across all of your Linux servers and treat that in a special way. You've got great flexibility. It's something that's really intended to scale. We've got some very powerful search tools as a part of that so if you do need to find things quickly and get it rolling. When it comes to containers, it's all about speed, keeping up the pace. Partly what we bring to the party is great data reduction capabilities, so when you're doing development in like a, let's pick on a Jenkins development environment, and you've got master/slave and you are collecting data as part of every object, all of that stuff has to move through the master. The better you are at handling data efficiency, the faster your runtime is going to be. We're observing about a 30% faster runtime for developers in that Jenkins environment, and capacity-wise, we're probably consuming 95% less capacity than you otherwise would have to do in your more traditional storage environments, so-- >> 95% reduce? >> It is a 20 to one reduction cause there's so many copies in development and we can dedupe all of that away. It's fundamentally a break-through for guys thinking about development tests, DevOps, et cetera. >> So you talked about the capacity improvements that you get in the (mumbles) improvements, but as you said, when we start going to containers, we increasingly start thinking about how fast we can add new function, how fast we can bring new capabilities together. One of the things we're fascinated about in this world, you tell me if this is a benefit that you see, is that it dramatically accelerates the entire process of doing development. Four, five, seven, 12 times speed in the development process. You not only get better runtime and do you get dramatically better utilization of resources but you are also accelerating the productivity of people that are actually doing the work. Are you seeing that as well? >> Yeah, absolutely. In fact, there are two things going on here. One is, as part of the platform, when you clone a container, you do that on your dev-server or wherever, that clone is immediately available to all other servers in the cluster. There is no copying and moving around. It is immediately available for the developers who just can go. The other interesting thing is there are, in development environments, depending on the number of developers and executors involved in development, you can have problems maintaining the state that you desire. Part of what we are doing here with these very efficient cloning capabilities, we can spin up a new environment for folks that is got pristine state which means down the line, quality is better and you're not going to thrash on those iterations on your QA cycle. From end to end, it's all faster, runtime, QA, the whole nine yards. >> Datrium's a relatively new company? >> We began shipping in February '16. We've had a great 2017, in fact, well, of course it was great. We had a wonderful fundraising in December '16, one of the largest of last year so that's really propelled us in the market. We had a wonderful set of announcements just about a quarter ago with the data management capabilities, and we added these Datrium compute nodes, and just last quarter alone, our install base which had been already showing record adoption, grew a whopping 50% in a single quarter. One of the most interesting statistics that-- >> Peter: Sequentially or year-to-year? >> Sequentially. >> Sequentially, that is whopping. >> Sequentially. The end of Q one to the end of Q two, boom. Not only that, one out of every three of our customers already has multiple DVX's deployed. That's a huge testimony to they're liking what they've got. Yeah, so it's been a sprint and like I say, we've been very vSphere-focused. Our founders are a couple of Diane Greene's. They're early principal engineers at VMware. But, customer demand, customer is king, and they're looking for the same kind of capability in their Linux and container environments so here we are. >> Hey, speed is important to infrastructure people too. >> Craig: Right on, yeah. >> So, Craig, thanks very much for joining us here on The Cube. >> My pleasure. >> Once again, great to have Datrium talk a little bit about an announcement that they did today, about adding the Red Hat environment to the great work you've been doing in VMware and vSphere, and the future of how containers, the way technology will start getting folded into that whole thing. >> Yep. >> Great results, good early start, keep it up. >> Thank you, alright, see you, Peter. >> I'm Peter Burris, good to have you once again with The Cube. We've been talking to Datrium about their new announcement. Craig Munes, er, Craig Nunes (laughs). Craig Nunes of Datrium, Vice President of Marketing, thanks for being here, Craig. >> Craig: My pleasure. (techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering InterConnect 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We are live in Las Vegas for IBM InterConnect 2017. This is IBM's Cloud show and, now, data show. This is theCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Meg Swanson, VP of Marketing for Bluemix, the whole kit and caboodle, SoftLayer of Bluemix. Now you get to watch some data platform, IOT. The Cloud's growing up. How you doing? Good to see you again. >> It's good. Good to see you guys. Every time we get together, it's just huge growth. Every time, every month to month. Under Bluemix, we've pulled together infrastructure. The area that was called SoftLayer. And because we had developers that absolutely you need a provision down to bare metal servers, all the way up to applications. So we pulled the infrastructure together with the developer services, together with our VMware partnership, all in a single console. Continuing to work on, with clients, on just having a unified experience. That's why we have it under the Bluemix brand. >> You knew us when we were just getting theCUBE started. We knew you when you were kicking off the developer program, with Bluemix, was announced here in theCUBE. Seems like 10 dog years ago, which is about 50 years, no, that was, what, four years ago now? Are you four years in? >> I think so. Yeah, 'cause I remember running from the Hakkasan club, we had just ended a virtual reality session, and I had to run, and then I sat down, and we started immediately talking about Bluemix 'cause we just launched it. >> So here's the update. You guys have been making a lot of progress, and we've been watching you. It's been fantastic, 'cause you really had to run fast and get this stuff built out, 'cause Cloud Native, it wasn't called Cloud Native back then, it was just called Cloud. But, essentially, it was the Cloud Native vision. Services, microservices, APIs, things, we've talked about that. What's the progress? Give us the update and the status, and where are you? >> Yeah, obviously just massive growth in services and our partners. When you look at, we had Twitter up with us today, we've had continual growth in the technology partners that we bring to bear, and then also definitely Cloud Native. But then also helping clients that have existing workloads and how to migrate. So, massive partnerships with VMware. We also just announced partnership with Intel HyTrust on secure cloud optimization. When we first met, we talked so much about you're going to win this with an ecosystem. And the coolest thing is seeing that pay off every day with the number of partners that we've been so blessed to have coming to us and working together with us to build out this ecosystem for our clients. >> And what's the differentiator, because what's happening now is you're starting to see the clear line of sight from the big cloud players. You have you guys, you have Oracle, you see Microsoft, you see SAP, you all got the version of the cloud. And it's not a winner-take-all market, it's a multi-cloud world, as we're seeing. Certainly open-source is driving that. How do you guys differentiate, and is it the same message? What's new in terms of IBM's differentiators? What's the key message? >> That we're absolutely staying core to the reason we went into this business. We are looking at, what are the challenges that our clients are looking to solve? How do we build out the right solutions for them? And look at the technologies they're using today, and not have them just forklift everything to a public cloud, but walk with them every step of the way. It's absolutely been about uncovering the partnerships between on-premises and the Cloud, how you make that seamless, how you make those migrations in minutes versus hours and days. The growth that we've seen is around helping clients get to that journey faster, or, if they're not meant to go fully public Cloud, that's okay, too. We've been absolutely expanding our data centers, making sure we have everything lined up from a compliance standpoint. Because country to country, we have so many regulations that we need to make sure we're protecting our clients in. >> I want to ask you, and David Kenny referenced it a little bit today, talked about we built this for the enterprise, it didn't stem out of a retailer or a search. I don't know who he was talking about, but Martin Schroeter, on the IBM earnings call, said something that I want to get your comment on, and if we can unpack a little bit. He said, "Importantly, we've designed Watson "on the IBM Cloud to allow our clients "to retain control of their data and their insights, "rather than using client data "to educate a central knowledge graph." That's a nuance, but it's a really big statement. And what's behind that, if I can infer, is use the data to inform the model, but we're not going to take your data IP and give it to your competitors. Can you explain that a little bit, and what the philosophy is there? >> Yeah, absolutely. That is a core tenet of what we do. It's all about clients will bring their data to us to learn, to go to school, but then it goes home. We don't keep client data, that's critical to us that everything is completely within the client's infrastructure, within their data privacy and protection. We are simply applying our cognitive, artificial intelligence machine learning to help them advance faster. It's not about taking their insights in learning and fueling them into our Cloud to then resell to other teams. That, absolutely, it's great that you bring up that very nuanced point, but that's really important. In today's day and age, your data is your lifeblood as a company, and you have to trust where it's going, you have to know where it's going, and you have to trust that those machine learnings aren't going to be helping other clients that are possibly on the same cloud. >> Is it your contention that others don't make that promise, or you don't know, or you're just making that promise? >> We're making that promise. It's our contention that the data is the client's data. You look at the partnerships that we've made throughout Cloud, throughout Watson, it's really companies that have come to us to solve problems. You look at the healthcare industry, you look at all these partnerships that we have. Everything that we've built out on the IBM Cloud and within Watson has been to help advance client cases. You rarely see us launching something that's completely unique to IBM that hasn't been built together with a client, with a partner. Versus, there are other companies out there in this market where they're constantly providing infrastructure to run their own business, maybe their own retail store, and their own search engine. And they will continue to do that, and they absolutely should, but at the end of the day, when you're a client, what do you want to do? Are you trying to build somebody else's business, or do you want someone who's going to be all in on your business and helping you advance everything that you need to do. >> Well, it seems like the market has glombed on to public data plus automation. But you're trying to solve a harder problem. Explain that. >> When you look at the clients that we're working with and the data that we're working with, it's not just information that's out there to work in a sandbox environment and it's available to anyone, baseball statistics or something that's just out there in the wild. Every client engagement we're in, this is their critical data. You look at financial services. We just launched the great financial services solutions for developers. You look at those areas, and, oh my word, you cannot share that data, yet those clients, you look at the work we're doing with H&R Block, you have to look at, that is absolutely proprietary data, but how do we send in cognitive to help us learn, to help teach it, help teach them alongside, for the H&R Block example, the tax advisor. So we're helping them make their business better. It's not as if we ingested all of the tax data to then run a tax solution service from IBM. It's a nuance, but it's an important nuance of how we run this company. >> So seven years ago, I met this guy, and he said, the 2010 John, you said, "Data is the new development kit." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" But now we see this persona of data scientist and data engineer and the developer persona evolving. How are you redefining the developer? >> Yeah, it's a great point, because we see cognitive artificial intelligence machine learning development in developers really emerging strong as a career path. We see data scientists, especially where as you're building out any application, any solution, data is at the core. So, you had it 10 years ago, right? (laughs) >> (mumbles) But I did pitch it to Dave when I first met him in 2010. No, but this is the premise, right? Back then, web infrastructure, web scale guys were doing their own stuff. The data needs to be programmable. We've been riffing on this concept, and I want to get your thoughts on this. What DevOps was for infrastructurous code, we see a vision in our research at Wikibon that data as code, meaning developers just want to program and get data. They don't want to deal with all the under-the-hood production, complicated stuff like datasets, the databases. Maybe the wrangling could be done by another process. There's all this production heavy lifting that goes on. And then there's the creativity and coolness of building apps. So now you have those worlds starting to stabilize a bit. Your thoughts and commentary on that vision? >> Yeah, that's absolutely where it has been heading and is continuing to head. And as you look at all the platforms that developers get to work in right now. So you have augmented reality, virtual reality are not just being segmented off into a gaming environment, but it's absolutely mainstream. So you see where developers absolutely are looking for. What is a low-code environment for? I'd say more the productivity. How do I make this app more productive? But when it comes to innovation, that's where you see, that's where the data scientist is emerging more and more every day in a role. You see those cognitive developers emerging more and more because that's where you want to spend all your time. My developers have spent the weekend, came back on Monday, and I said, "What'd you do?" "I wrote this whole Getting Started guide "for this Watson cognitive service." "That's not your job." "Yeah, but it's fun." >> Yeah, they're geeking out on the weekends, having some beer and doing some hackathons. >> It's so exciting to see. That's where, that innovation side, that's where we're seeing, absolutely, the growth. One of the partnerships that we announced earlier today is around our investment in just that training and learning. With Galvanize. >> What was the number? How much? >> 10 million dollars. >> Evangelizing and getting, soften the ground up, getting people trained on cognitive AI. >> Yeah, so it's really about making an impactful investment in the work that we started, actually a couple years ago when we were talking, we started building out these Garages. The concept was, we have startup companies, we starting partnering with Galvanize, who has an incredible footprint across the globe. And when you look at what they were building, we started embedding our developers in those offices, calling them Garages because that is your workshop. That's where you bring in companies that want to start building applications quickly. And you saw a number of the clients we had on stage today consistently, started in the Garage, started in the Garage, started in the Garage. >> Yeah, we had one just on theCUBE earlier. >> Yeah, exactly, so they start with us in the Garage. And then we wanted to make sure we're continuing to fuel that environment because it's been so successful for our clients. We're pouring into Galvanize and companies in training, and making sure these areas that are really in their pioneering stages, like artificial intelligence, cognitive, machine learning. >> On that point, you bring up startups and Garage, two-prong question. We're putting together, I'm putting together an enterprise-readiness matrix. So you have startups who are building on the Cloud, who want to sell to the enterprise. And then you have enterprises themselves who are adopting Hybrid Cloud or a combination of public, private. What does enterprise-readiness mean to you guys? 'Cause you guys have a lot of experience. Google next, they said, "We're enterprising." They're really not. They're not ready yet, but they're going that way. You guys are there. What is enterprise-readiness? >> Yeah, and I see a lot of companies have ambitions to do that, which is what we need them to do. 'Cause as you mentioned, it's a multi-cloud environment for clients, and so we need clouds to be enterprise-ready. And that really comes down to security, compliance, scalability, multiple zones. It comes down to making sure you don't have just five developers that can work on something, but how do you scale that to 500? How do you scale that to 500,000? You've got these companies that you have to be able to ensure that developers can immediately interact with each other. You need to make sure that you've got the right compliance by that country, the data leaving that country. And it's why you see such a focus from us on industry. Because enterprise-grade is one thing. Understanding an industry top to bottom, when it comes to cloud compliance is a whole other level. And that's where we're at. >> It's really hard. Most people oversimplify Cloud, but it's extremely difficult. >> It is, 'cause it's not just announcing a healthcare practice for Cloud doesn't mean you just put everybody in lab coats and send out new digital material. It is you have to make sure you've got partnerships with the right companies, you understand all the compliance regulations, and you've built everything and designed it for them. And then you've brought in all the partner services that they need, and you've built that in a private and a public cloud environment. And that's what we've done in healthcare, that's what we're doing in finance, you see all the work we're doing with Blockchain. We are just going industry by industry and making sure that when a company comes to us in an industry like retail, or you saw American Airlines on stage with us today. We're so proud to be working with them. And looking at everything that they need to cover, from regulation, uptime, maintenance, and ensuring that we know and understand that industry and can help, guide, and work alongside of them. >> In healthcare and financial services, the number of permutations are mind-boggling. So, what are you doing? You're pointing Watson to help solve those problems, and you're codifying that and automating that and running that on the Cloud? >> That's a part of it. A part of it is absolutely learning. The whole data comes to school with us to learn, and then it goes back home. That's absolutely part of it, is the cognitive learning. The other part of it is ensuring you understand the infrastructure. What are the on-premises, servers that that industry has? How many transactions per second, per nanosecond, are happening? What's the uptime around that? How do you make sure that what points you're exposing? What's the security baked into all of that? So, it's absolutely, cognitive is a massive part of it, but it is walking all the way through every part of their IT environment. >> Well, Meg, thanks for spending the time and coming on theCUBE and giving us the update. We'll certainly see you out in the field as we cover more and more developer events. We're going to be doing most, if not all, of the Linux foundation stuff. Working a lot with Intel and a bunch of other folks that you're partnering with. So, we'll see you guys out at all the events. DockerCon, you name it, they're all there. >> We'll be there, too, right with them. >> Microservices, we didn't even get to Kubernetes, we could have another session on containers and microservices. Meg Swanson, here inside theCUBE, Vice President of Bluemix Marketing. It's theCUBE, with more coverage after this short break. Stay with us, more coverage from Las Vegas. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Jose, California. In the heart of Silicon Valley. It's theCUBE. Covering QuickBooks Connect 2016. Now here're your hosts. Jeff Frick and John Walls. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back here in San Jose, we're live at the Convention Center for the second day of QuickBooks Connect 2016. A thriving community, 5000 plus attendees here enjoying where there have been some fascinating keynotes and breakout sessions. And it's our pleasure to bring you some of the brightest and best minds in the QuickBooks community. And we have that with us today in the form of Jim McGinnis, who's the Vice President of Product Management at ProConnect. Jim, thanks for being with us. >> Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. >> I got to tell you, I wasn't aware of your stature until Jeff informed me of last year when the two of you met. He said, "I could barley have a conversation with him because the man's a rock star". People kept coming up, they wanted to take selfies with him and it was nonstop. So apparently, your cache goes well beyond theCUBE. >> It's very kind, but the truth is, the rock stars are our 150,000 plus pro-advisors from around the world. These guys are making a huge difference in the small businesses' lives. They come here, they connect with small businesses, with each other, et cetera. Sometimes it feels a little silly, but I'm just honored to get to spend time with them. >> But they wanted the selfie so good for you. They're not asking for Jeff and John. They're asking for Jim. >> In the near future I'm sure. >> Give me an idea, first off, your feelings about the vibe. You heard us talking about, a little bit ago but your thoughts about what you're seeing here and the growth of this show over the last three years. >> I was having a conversation, you know this started on the back of a notebook three years ago where we said, "We're getting big enough that we believe we need to have a show to bring folks together". But we want to be different. We want to be about making connections. So the name QB Connect was born. We wanted to be the place where developers, small businesses, and accountants come together and meet. The vibe is phenomenal. The vibe it starts early Monday morning when we do the accountant kickoff. They go into training. A lot of them get certified in QuickBooks online and advance certifications as well. It continues the next day, yesterday, with these fabulous keynote speakers. Last night with a great band, Third Eye Blind. Sometimes these bands say, "Am I seriously playing for a bunch of accountants"? But they always come away and say, "That is one of the best "shows we've ever done because the enthusiasm, the excitement". Everybody loves to be here. And then today continued. We had fabulous speakers on the stage again. People like Tony Hawk and Simone Biles. >> Yeah, so what do you want when people leave here, and we're going to get into accounting and what's going on certainly in your world. But I'm just curious. The takeaway that you want people to have as they go back to all corners of the globe, frankly. What do you want them to do, and how do you want them to feel about QuickBooks when they go back and do their 12-hour day jobs? >> Absolutely. You know, I want them to feel empowered to really make a difference in their clients' lives, which is super fun. There was a quote yesterday from America who said, "You are modeling possibilities for someone else and you may not even realize it". And boy, our pro-advisors from around the world really model possibilities. They save small businesses all the time. In fact, 89% of small businesses say they're more successful because they work with and accountant. How do I want them to feel about QuickBooks and Intuit? I really want them to feel like we're their partners. Scott Cook founded this company believing that we're here to make a difference. To change our customer's financial lives so profoundly they can't imagine going back. When I talked to accountants last night, today, that's what they tell me. They want to change their small businesses' financial lives so profoundly, they can't imagine not working with an accountant. We're perfect partners. That's what I'd like them to take back. >> It's so funny right? The dirty little secret everyone thinks an accounting show. It's not an accounting show. >> No. >> It's a small business show. It's really a building businesses and partnerships, and really creating that foundation for other people to build from to be more successful in really pursuing their passions. I think that's why the energy is so strong. >> You said it well. It's all about possibilities and it's all about connections. >> Excellent. So lets talk about some big global trends that are not only impacting QuickBooks and Intuit, and your customers, and the accountants but everyone all over the place. The two big ones that have recently just overtaken everything, mobile and cloud. Huge impact on what you can build, how you can deliver it, how people consume it. How have those really changed what you guys have built and delivered at QuickBooks? >> That's great. I'll start with the cloud side because I think that's where it all starts. All those desktops, they're coffins. The data is buried underneath your desk and it's unusable in so many ways. When the data moves up into the cloud, now you can make connections between industries. You can do industry benchmarking. Now the data can just flow seamlessly from one application, like QuickBooks online, through trial balance to another application, like our ProConnect Tax online. We're able to connect up all these fabulous developers who are building solutions that we would never be able to build the creativity that we see and all plug in this online ecosystem. It changes everything. On the mobile side, boy isn't it fun to see all the tweets going by? Our reputations are being built for us. The best we can do is curate them at this stage. The other is it's anytime, anywhere isn't it? This idea that you can make an appointment with your accountant and he or you would drive across town to get some bit of information. It's just too slow in today's world. Mobile enables us to collaborate constantly with our accounting professionals and the accounting professionals to collaborate with their clients. >> And really in a different kind of form and function because mobile is quick. I got two minutes standing in line at the grocery store at Safeway. I got a couple of minutes while I'm filling up my car full of gas. I'm waiting for the kids to come out of the coach's meeting after the soccer games. So it's a lot more frequent little bits of connecting in the way that we use mobile apps to interact with our world. >> Absolutely. Think about all the productivity that's unlocked with mobile. Usually it's a simple question. I need something now. Make an appointment, drive across town, it's miserable. Instead you can ask a question and all that's successful because the data's in the cloud. >> Jeff: Right. >> So what do you do then in terms of, at least with a client base that has a reputation for being a bit slow to move. And there's not an enormous number of early adopters, it's almost like show me. But yet when you have these new possibilities like moving to the cloud, migration there, people are going to get left behind if they don't. How do you convey that sense of urgency and get them to convert and get them to adopt and take advantage of these great products and services that you're developing for people? >> I'm going to answer that by saying I say it ain't so. I think accountants and accounting professionals are some of the most forward people that I've known. Now, they have to be responsible. They have to look out for their clients. And they're under a lot time pressure. I think that if there's been some slowness in moving it's because we haven't gone fast enough to create applications that really save them the time. Software's a tough business, folks. Because before in my previous life I was in Proctor & Gamble. You knew the benefit up front. Software comes with immediate pain and uncertainty about whether it's really going to deliver the promise, the benefit that's there. What we have to do is we have to help show accountants that the possibilities are there and give them immediate satisfaction that the time savings that they seek is there. When we do that, we've already seen it. They move quickly. >> So you're kind of talking about, in a way I think, this firm of the future concept, right? That as far as where we're going in this 21st century. So talk a little more about that and what it means, brass tax terms. When the rubber hits the road here, in terms of the products that you're providing people and the changes you think the customer's going to have to make in order to really fulfill this vision of the firm of the future. >> That's exactly right. Sometimes our accounting professionals or pro-advisors come to us and say, "Can't you make it simpler? "Can't you break it down into a few steps "so I can follow a roadmap step-by-step "and get there?" And we've done that a little bit with our concept of firm of the future. The first step is the importance of getting online. That first client, that's a little scary. Put your next client online, see what its like, enjoy the benefits, learn the new operating systems, learn the new workflows. And then the benefits start to unlock. You can manage them all in QuickBooks online account. You can start tying in the different applications. You can see all of your clients there. And as you get your second and your third, you start to enjoy that. The second part of our pilar I would say, the firm of the future, is we do believe that the billable hour it's not scalable. Of all of the time savings that's coming by moving to an online platform, gosh, you'd have to have a lot more clients in order to make as much money as you're making today. We believe accounting professionals deserve to get paid for the value they create. And that means moving to fixed fee pricing, it means offering a range of services, that means going beyond just typing in data and compliance to actually creating more value through advisory services. And then that's the third pilar right there. Once you're online, and you're making money by creating value through advisory services, you need to get your name out there. Become a specialist in a certain vertical. Help people around the country, even around the globe, know the value that you can create. And they'll flock to you. We've seen little companies start up with two people, this one in Canada, has gone up to I think more than 500 clients in less than three years because they followed the firm of the future approach. >> That's really interesting. It was apart of the keynote too where a lot of the entrepreneurs said they started with their family accountant or family friend who didn't really have a specialization in the industries that they decided to build. Then at some point they had to flip because the value of accounting is not data entry. And it's kind of old school that automation should help you get rid of the redundant low value activity to free you up on the higher value activity which is asset planning, and tax planning, and future planning, and inventory planning, and the things where the accountant can bring much more value to the relationship that aren't tied to how many hours did it take to prepare your return. >> That's absolutely right. We say that the most important feature we can add into QuickBooks is an accountant. Sometimes there's some fear of technology, I have to share what I read recently in the Wall Street Journal which is, machines have been able to beat humans at chess. But there's a concept called centaur chess, which is half machine half human. When a chess expert is combined with a computer can beat any computer. And that's where we are in the accounting profession too. All this technology is fabulous, but where it really starts to sing is when it's combined with an accounting professional who understands it and leverages to give advice only a human being can give. >> Alright so a couple more trends now that are coming, get your reaction. Machine learning, big one, big data obviously it's been around awhile but the machine learning and the augmented intelligence, AI. Some people say artificial intelligence other people say there's nothing artificial about it. >> That's right. >> It should be augmented intelligence. The impacts of those on your software and your customers? >> Great question. Let's be specific. Things like chart of accounts. We can do a pretty good job of estimating what a chart of accounts should be for a given vertical. But they always get modified by the accountants because they know better than we do. When a few of them start to modify it and few more, pretty soon we can leverage the wisdom of the accounting profession crowd to get the very best chart of accounts for any given vertical. What a great opportunity. And then you think about benchmarks. I was talking to somebody before about when all of the plumbing industry is on QBO. And accountants can go in and say this is what accounts receivable should look like for plumbing, for a plumber. Think of the power of that. But one thing we know is every small business says the same thing, but I'm different. No problem, tell me how you're different? And in fact, we'll find 10,000 others who're different, just like you. >> Just like you, right. (all laughing) So, just going forward, you've go tax pros on one side, you've got accountants on the other, never the twain shall meet. Now you're bringing them together. And the importance of that, the value of that in terms of making sure there's an integration, there's a collaboration for small firms? >> In my new role as product manager for the ProConnect group, that's the part I'm really really excited about. Last year we launched QuickBooks online trial balance so that the data flows into the trial balance and from the trial balance mappings can be done and it flows directly into the tax software with a little modification, a click of the button, you can file right from the tax software. But our accountants told us, I don't understand. I don't want to run two different client lists when somethings going on in the tax side of it. I want to know about it where I do my work, in QuickBooks online accountants. So this year we've integrated the tax software right into QuickBooks online accountant. And now we're dreaming a little bit. Where as we talk about moving to advisory services, when it's a separate business impacts in my books, impacts in the decisions I make here, then get handed over the tax side of the shop. Now when it's all one application, those insights come back from tax and say, I wouldn't do it that way. I'd lease that. I wouldn't buy it because you're going to be in a much better position from a tax standpoint. And gosh, your business has really taken off. You need to think differently about your quarterly estimates. Because otherwise you're going to find yourself in a cash flow situation come October. >> So you're getting ahead. You're not looking after the fact and reacting. >> It's advisory service. It moves tax from being a once a year event to being an ongoing relationship. That's exciting. >> Well Jim, it's that kind of vision that I think, makes you a rock star. And if you got time for a quick selfie. (all laughing) If we all just kind of, you know... >> I'm all in. >> Jim McGinnis, Glad you could join us here. I look forward to seeing you down the road too. >> Thank you very much. >> Jeff: Best of luck to you. >> Jim: I've certainly enjoyed it. >> It's a little blurry, we'll have to do another one here. Back with more here from San Jose right after this. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(light airy music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, AI and machine learning. "Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS." This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about AI machine learning. We have three great guests Bratin Saha, VP, Vice President of Machine Learning and AI Services at Amazon Web Services. Tom Mason, the CTO of Stability AI, and Aidan Gomez, CEO and co-founder of Cohere. Two practitioners doing startups and AWS. Gentlemen, thank you for opening up this session, this episode. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So the topic is hype versus reality. So I think we're all on the reality is great, hype is great, but the reality's here. I want to get into it. Generative AI's got all the momentum, it's going mainstream, it's kind of come out of the behind the ropes, it's now mainstream. We saw the success of ChatGPT, opens up everyone's eyes, but there's so much more going on. Let's jump in and get your early perspectives on what should people be talking about right now? What are you guys working on? We'll start with AWS. What's the big focus right now for you guys as you come into this market that's highly active, highly hyped up, but people see value right out of the gate? >> You know, we have been working on generative AI for some time. In fact, last year we released Code Whisperer, which is about using generative AI for software development and a number of customers are using it and getting real value out of it. So generative AI is now something that's mainstream that can be used by enterprise users. And we have also been partnering with a number of other companies. So, you know, stability.ai, we've been partnering with them a lot. We want to be partnering with other companies as well. In seeing how we do three things, you know, first is providing the most efficient infrastructure for generative AI. And that is where, you know, things like Trainium, things like Inferentia, things like SageMaker come in. And then next is the set of models and then the third is the kind of applications like Code Whisperer and so on. So, you know, it's early days yet, but clearly there's a lot of amazing capabilities that will come out and something that, you know, our customers are starting to pay a lot of attention to. >> Tom, talk about your company and what your focus is and why the Amazon Web Services relationship's important for you? >> So yeah, we're primarily committed to making incredible open source foundation models and obviously stable effusions been our kind of first big model there, which we trained all on AWS. We've been working with them over the last year and a half to develop, obviously a big cluster, and bring all that compute to training these models at scale, which has been a really successful partnership. And we're excited to take it further this year as we develop commercial strategy of the business and build out, you know, the ability for enterprise customers to come and get all the value from these models that we think they can get. So we're really excited about the future. We got hugely exciting pipeline for this year with new modalities and video models and wonderful things and trying to solve images for once and for all and get the kind of general value and value proposition correct for customers. So it's a really exciting time and very honored to be part of it. >> It's great to see some of your customers doing so well out there. Congratulations to your team. Appreciate that. Aidan, let's get into what you guys do. What does Cohere do? What are you excited about right now? >> Yeah, so Cohere builds large language models, which are the backbone of applications like ChatGPT and GPT-3. We're extremely focused on solving the issues with adoption for enterprise. So it's great that you can make a super flashy demo for consumers, but it takes a lot to actually get it into billion user products and large global enterprises. So about six months ago, we released our command models, which are some of the best that exist for large language models. And in December, we released our multilingual text understanding models and that's on over a hundred different languages and it's trained on, you know, authentic data directly from native speakers. And so we're super excited to continue pushing this into enterprise and solving those barriers for adoption, making this transformation a reality. >> Just real quick, while I got you there on the new products coming out. Where are we in the progress? People see some of the new stuff out there right now. There's so much more headroom. Can you just scope out in your mind what that looks like? Like from a headroom standpoint? Okay, we see ChatGPT. "Oh yeah, it writes my papers for me, does some homework for me." I mean okay, yawn, maybe people say that, (Aidan chuckles) people excited or people are blown away. I mean, it's helped theCUBE out, it helps me, you know, feed up a little bit from my write-ups but it's not always perfect. >> Yeah, at the moment it's like a writing assistant, right? And it's still super early in the technologies trajectory. I think it's fascinating and it's interesting but its impact is still really limited. I think in the next year, like within the next eight months, we're going to see some major changes. You've already seen the very first hints of that with stuff like Bing Chat, where you augment these dialogue models with an external knowledge base. So now the models can be kept up to date to the millisecond, right? Because they can search the web and they can see events that happened a millisecond ago. But that's still limited in the sense that when you ask the question, what can these models actually do? Well they can just write text back at you. That's the extent of what they can do. And so the real project, the real effort, that I think we're all working towards is actually taking action. So what happens when you give these models the ability to use tools, to use APIs? What can they do when they can actually affect change out in the real world, beyond just streaming text back at the user? I think that's the really exciting piece. >> Okay, so I wanted to tee that up early in the segment 'cause I want to get into the customer applications. We're seeing early adopters come in, using the technology because they have a lot of data, they have a lot of large language model opportunities and then there's a big fast follower wave coming behind it. I call that the people who are going to jump in the pool early and get into it. They might not be advanced. Can you guys share what customer applications are being used with large language and vision models today and how they're using it to transform on the early adopter side, and how is that a tell sign of what's to come? >> You know, one of the things we have been seeing both with the text models that Aidan talked about as well as the vision models that stability.ai does, Tom, is customers are really using it to change the way you interact with information. You know, one example of a customer that we have, is someone who's kind of using that to query customer conversations and ask questions like, you know, "What was the customer issue? How did we solve it?" And trying to get those kinds of insights that was previously much harder to do. And then of course software is a big area. You know, generating software, making that, you know, just deploying it in production. Those have been really big areas that we have seen customers start to do. You know, looking at documentation, like instead of you know, searching for stuff and so on, you know, you just have an interactive way, in which you can just look at the documentation for a product. You know, all of this goes to where we need to take the technology. One of which is, you know, the models have to be there but they have to work reliably in a production setting at scale, with privacy, with security, and you know, making sure all of this is happening, is going to be really key. That is what, you know, we at AWS are looking to do, which is work with partners like stability and others and in the open source and really take all of these and make them available at scale to customers, where they work reliably. >> Tom, Aidan, what's your thoughts on this? Where are customers landing on this first use cases or set of low-hanging fruit use cases or applications? >> Yeah, so I think like the first group of adopters that really found product market fit were the copywriting companies. So one great example of that is HyperWrite. Another one is Jasper. And so for Cohere, that's the tip of the iceberg, like there's a very long tail of usage from a bunch of different applications. HyperWrite is one of our customers, they help beat writer's block by drafting blog posts, emails, and marketing copy. We also have a global audio streaming platform, which is using us the power of search engine that can comb through podcast transcripts, in a bunch of different languages. Then a global apparel brand, which is using us to transform how they interact with their customers through a virtual assistant, two dozen global news outlets who are using us for news summarization. So really like, these large language models, they can be deployed all over the place into every single industry sector, language is everywhere. It's hard to think of any company on Earth that doesn't use language. So it's, very, very- >> We're doing it right now. We got the language coming in. >> Exactly. >> We'll transcribe this puppy. All right. Tom, on your side, what do you see the- >> Yeah, we're seeing some amazing applications of it and you know, I guess that's partly been, because of the growth in the open source community and some of these applications have come from there that are then triggering this secondary wave of innovation, which is coming a lot from, you know, controllability and explainability of the model. But we've got companies like, you know, Jasper, which Aidan mentioned, who are using stable diffusion for image generation in block creation, content creation. We've got Lensa, you know, which exploded, and is built on top of stable diffusion for fine tuning so people can bring themselves and their pets and you know, everything into the models. So we've now got fine tuned stable diffusion at scale, which is democratized, you know, that process, which is really fun to see your Lensa, you know, exploded. You know, I think it was the largest growing app in the App Store at one point. And lots of other examples like NightCafe and Lexica and Playground. So seeing lots of cool applications. >> So much applications, we'll probably be a customer for all you guys. We'll definitely talk after. But the challenges are there for people adopting, they want to get into what you guys see as the challenges that turn into opportunities. How do you see the customers adopting generative AI applications? For example, we have massive amounts of transcripts, timed up to all the videos. I don't even know what to do. Do I just, do I code my API there. So, everyone has this problem, every vertical has these use cases. What are the challenges for people getting into this and adopting these applications? Is it figuring out what to do first? Or is it a technical setup? Do they stand up stuff, they just go to Amazon? What do you guys see as the challenges? >> I think, you know, the first thing is coming up with where you think you're going to reimagine your customer experience by using generative AI. You know, we talked about Ada, and Tom talked about a number of these ones and you know, you pick up one or two of these, to get that robust. And then once you have them, you know, we have models and we'll have more models on AWS, these large language models that Aidan was talking about. Then you go in and start using these models and testing them out and seeing whether they fit in use case or not. In many situations, like you said, John, our customers want to say, "You know, I know you've trained these models on a lot of publicly available data, but I want to be able to customize it for my use cases. Because, you know, there's some knowledge that I have created and I want to be able to use that." And then in many cases, and I think Aidan mentioned this. You know, you need these models to be up to date. Like you can't have it staying. And in those cases, you augmented with a knowledge base, you know you have to make sure that these models are not hallucinating. And so you need to be able to do the right kind of responsible AI checks. So, you know, you start with a particular use case, and there are a lot of them. Then, you know, you can come to AWS, and then look at one of the many models we have and you know, we are going to have more models for other modalities as well. And then, you know, play around with the models. We have a playground kind of thing where you can test these models on some data and then you can probably, you will probably want to bring your own data, customize it to your own needs, do some of the testing to make sure that the model is giving the right output and then just deploy it. And you know, we have a lot of tools. >> Yeah. >> To make this easy for our customers. >> How should people think about large language models? Because do they think about it as something that they tap into with their IP or their data? Or is it a large language model that they apply into their system? Is the interface that way? What's the interaction look like? >> In many situations, you can use these models out of the box. But in typical, in most of the other situations, you will want to customize it with your own data or with your own expectations. So the typical use case would be, you know, these are models are exposed through APIs. So the typical use case would be, you know you're using these APIs a little bit for testing and getting familiar and then there will be an API that will allow you to train this model further on your data. So you use that AI, you know, make sure you augmented the knowledge base. So then you use those APIs to customize the model and then just deploy it in an application. You know, like Tom was mentioning, a number of companies that are using these models. So once you have it, then you know, you again, use an endpoint API and use it in an application. >> All right, I love the example. I want to ask Tom and Aidan, because like most my experience with Amazon Web Service in 2007, I would stand up in EC2, put my code on there, play around, if it didn't work out, I'd shut it down. Is that a similar dynamic we're going to see with the machine learning where developers just kind of log in and stand up infrastructure and play around and then have a cloud-like experience? >> So I can go first. So I mean, we obviously, with AWS working really closely with the SageMaker team, do fantastic platform there for ML training and inference. And you know, going back to your point earlier, you know, where the data is, is hugely important for companies. Many companies bringing their models to their data in AWS on-premise for them is hugely important. Having the models to be, you know, open sources, makes them explainable and transparent to the adopters of those models. So, you know, we are really excited to work with the SageMaker team over the coming year to bring companies to that platform and make the most of our models. >> Aidan, what's your take on developers? Do they just need to have a team in place, if we want to interface with you guys? Let's say, can they start learning? What do they got to do to set up? >> Yeah, so I think for Cohere, our product makes it much, much easier to people, for people to get started and start building, it solves a lot of the productionization problems. But of course with SageMaker, like Tom was saying, I think that lowers a barrier even further because it solves problems like data privacy. So I want to underline what Bratin was saying earlier around when you're fine tuning or when you're using these models, you don't want your data being incorporated into someone else's model. You don't want it being used for training elsewhere. And so the ability to solve for enterprises, that data privacy and that security guarantee has been hugely important for Cohere, and that's very easy to do through SageMaker. >> Yeah. >> But the barriers for using this technology are coming down super quickly. And so for developers, it's just becoming completely intuitive. I love this, there's this quote from Andrej Karpathy. He was saying like, "It really wasn't on my 2022 list of things to happen that English would become, you know, the most popular programming language." And so the barrier is coming down- >> Yeah. >> Super quickly and it's exciting to see. >> It's going to be awesome for all the companies here, and then we'll do more, we're probably going to see explosion of startups, already seeing that, the maps, ecosystem maps, the landscape maps are happening. So this is happening and I'm convinced it's not yesterday's chat bot, it's not yesterday's AI Ops. It's a whole another ballgame. So I have to ask you guys for the final question before we kick off the company's showcasing here. How do you guys gauge success of generative AI applications? Is there a lens to look through and say, okay, how do I see success? It could be just getting a win or is it a bigger picture? Bratin we'll start with you. How do you gauge success for generative AI? >> You know, ultimately it's about bringing business value to our customers. And making sure that those customers are able to reimagine their experiences by using generative AI. Now the way to get their ease, of course to deploy those models in a safe, effective manner, and ensuring that all of the robustness and the security guarantees and the privacy guarantees are all there. And we want to make sure that this transitions from something that's great demos to actual at scale products, which means making them work reliably all of the time not just some of the time. >> Tom, what's your gauge for success? >> Look, I think this, we're seeing a completely new form of ways to interact with data, to make data intelligent, and directly to bring in new revenue streams into business. So if businesses can use our models to leverage that and generate completely new revenue streams and ultimately bring incredible new value to their customers, then that's fantastic. And we hope we can power that revolution. >> Aidan, what's your take? >> Yeah, reiterating Bratin and Tom's point, I think that value in the enterprise and value in market is like a huge, you know, it's the goal that we're striving towards. I also think that, you know, the value to consumers and actual users and the transformation of the surface area of technology to create experiences like ChatGPT that are magical and it's the first time in human history we've been able to talk to something compelling that's not a human. I think that in itself is just extraordinary and so exciting to see. >> It really brings up a whole another category of markets. B2B, B2C, it's B2D, business to developer. Because I think this is kind of the big trend the consumers have to win. The developers coding the apps, it's a whole another sea change. Reminds me everyone use the "Moneyball" movie as example during the big data wave. Then you know, the value of data. There's a scene in "Moneyball" at the end, where Billy Beane's getting the offer from the Red Sox, then the owner says to the Red Sox, "If every team's not rebuilding their teams based upon your model, there'll be dinosaurs." I think that's the same with AI here. Every company will have to need to think about their business model and how they operate with AI. So it'll be a great run. >> Completely Agree >> It'll be a great run. >> Yeah. >> Aidan, Tom, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences at your companies and congratulations on your success and it's just the beginning. And Bratin, thanks for coming on representing AWS. And thank you, appreciate for what you do. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, Aidan. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, let's kick off season three, episode one. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (light airy music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to "The Cube"'s live coverage of "Women in Data Science 2023". As every year we are here live at Stanford University, profiling some amazing women and men in the fields of data science. I have my co-host for this segment is Hannah Freitag. Hannah is from Stanford's Data Journalism program, really interesting, check it out. We're very pleased to welcome our first guest of the day fresh from the keynote stage, Gayatree Ganu, the VP of Data Science at Meta. Gayatree, It's great to have you on the program. >> Likewise, Thank you for having me. >> So you have a PhD in Computer Science. You shared some really cool stuff. Everyone knows Facebook, everyone uses it. I think my mom might be one of the biggest users (Gayatree laughs) and she's probably watching right now. People don't realize there's so much data behind that and data that drives decisions that we engage with. But talk to me a little bit about you first, PhD in Computer Science, were you always, were you like a STEM kid? Little Gayatree, little STEM, >> Yeah, I was a STEM kid. I grew up in Mumbai, India. My parents are actually pharmacists, so they were not like math or stats or anything like that, but I was always a STEM kid. I don't know, I think it, I think I was in sixth grade when we got our first personal computer and I obviously used it as a Pacman playing machine. >> Oh, that's okay. (all laugh) >> But I was so good at, and I, I honestly believe I think being good at games kind of got me more familiar and comfortable with computers. Yeah. I think I always liked computers, I, yeah. >> And so now you lead, I'm looking at my notes here, the Engagement Ecosystem and Monetization Data Science teams at Facebook, Meta. Talk about those, what are the missions of those teams and how does it impact the everyday user? >> Yeah, so the engagement is basically users coming back to our platform more, there's, no better way for users to tell us that they are finding value on the things that we are doing on Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, all the other products than coming back to our platform more. So the Engagement Ecosystem team is looking at trends, looking at where there are needs, looking at how users are changing their behaviors, and you know, helping build strategy for the long term, using that data knowledge. Monetization is very different. You know, obviously the top, top apex goal is have a sustainable business so that we can continue building products for our users. And so, but you know, I said this in my keynote today, it's not about making money, our mission statement is not, you know, maximize as much money as you can make. It's about building a meaningful connection between businesses, customers, users, and, you know especially in these last two or three funky, post-pandemic years, it's been such a big, an important thing to do for small businesses all over all, all around the world for users to find like goods and services and products that they care about and that they can connect to. So, you know, there is truly an connection between my engagement world and the monetization world. And you know, it's not very clear always till you go in to, like, you peel the layers. Everything we do in the ads world is also always first with users as our, you know, guiding principle. >> Yeah, you mentioned how you supported especially small businesses also during the pandemic. You touched a bit upon it in the keynote speech. Can you tell our audience what were like special or certain specific programs you implemented to support especially small businesses during these times? >> Yeah, so there are 200 million businesses on our platform. A lot of them small businesses, 10 million of them run ads. So there is a large number of like businesses on our platform who, you know use the power of social media to connect to the customers that matter to them, to like you, you know use the free products that we built. In the post-pandemic years, we built a lot of stuff very quickly when Covid first hit for business to get the word out, right? Like, they had to announce when special shopping hours existed for at-risk populations, or when certain goods and services were available versus not. We had grants, there's $100 million grant that we gave out to small businesses. Users could show sort of, you know show their support with a bunch of campaigns that we ran, and of course we continue running ads. Our ads are very effective, I guess, and, you know getting a very reliable connection with from the customer to the business. And so, you know, we've run all these studies. We support, I talked about two examples today. One of them is the largest black-owned, woman black-owned wine company, and how they needed to move to an online program and, you know, we gave them a grant, and supported them through their ads campaign and, you know, they saw 60% lift in purchases, or something like that. So, a lot of good stories, small stories, you know, on a scale of 200 million, that really sort of made me feel proud about the work we do. And you know, now more than ever before, I think people can connect so directly with businesses. You can WhatsApp them, I come from India, every business is on WhatsApp. And you can, you know, WhatsApp them, you can send them Facebook messages, and you can build this like direct connection with things that matter to you. >> We have this expectation that we can be connected anywhere. I was just at Mobile World Congress for MWC last week, where, obviously talking about connectivity. We want to be able to do any transaction, whether it's post on Facebook or call an Uber, or watch on Netflix if you're on the road, we expect that we're going to be connected. >> Yeah. >> And what we, I think a lot of us don't realize I mean, those of us in tech do, but how much data science is a facilitator of all of those interactions. >> Yeah! >> As we, Gayatree, as we talk about, like, any business, whether it is the black women-owned wine business, >> Yeah. >> great business, or a a grocer or a car dealer, everybody has to become data-driven. >> Yes. >> Because the consumer has the expectation. >> Yes. >> Talk about data science as a facilitator of just pretty much everything we are doing and conducting in our daily lives. >> Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think data science as a field wasn't really defined like maybe 15 years ago, right? So this is all in our lifetimes that we are seeing this. Even in data science today, People come from so many different backgrounds and bring their own expertise here. And I think we, you know, this conference, all of us get to define what that means and how we can bring data to do good in the world. Everything you do, as you said, there is a lot of data. Facebook has a lot of data, Meta has a lot of data, and how do we responsibly use this data? How do we use this data to make sure that we're, you know representing all diversity? You know, minorities? Like machine learning algorithms don't do well with small data, they do well with big data, but the small data matters. And how do you like, you know, bring that into algorithms? Yeah, so everything we do at Meta is very, very data-driven. I feel proud about that, to be honest, because while data gets a bad rap sometimes, having no data and making decisions in the blind is just the absolute worst thing you can do. And so, you know, we, the job as a data scientist at Facebook is to make sure that we use this data, use this responsibly, make sure that we are representing every aspect of the, you know, 3 billion users who come to our platform. Yeah, data serves all the products that we build here. >> The responsibility factor is, is huge. You know, we can't talk about AI without talking about ethics. One of the things that I was talking with Hannah and our other co-host, Tracy, about during our opening is something I just learned over the weekend. And that is that the CTO of ChatGPT is a woman. (Gayatree laughs) I didn't know that. And I thought, why isn't she getting more awareness? There's a lot of conversations with their CEO. >> Yeah. >> Everyone's using it, playing around with it. I actually asked it yesterday, "What's hot in Data Science?" (all laugh) I was like, should I have asked that to let itself in, what's hot? (Gayatree laughs) But it, I thought that was phenomenal, and we need to be talking about this more. >> Yeah. >> This is something that they're likening to the launch of the iPhone, which has transformed our lives. >> I know, it is. >> ChatGPT, and its chief technologist is a female, how great is that? >> And I don't know whether you, I don't know the stats around this, but I think CTO is even less, it's even more rare to have a woman there, like you have women CEOs because I mean, we are building upon years and years of women not choosing technical fields and not choosing STEM, and it's going to take some time, but yeah, yeah, she's a woman. Isn't it amazing? It's wonderful. >> Yes, there was a great, there's a great "Fast Company" article on her that I was looking at yesterday and I just thought, we need to do what we can to help spread, Mira Murati is her name, because what she's doing is, one of the biggest technological breakthroughs we may ever see in our lifetime. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. (Gayatree laughs) I also wanted to share some stats, oh, sorry, go ahead, Hannah. >> Yeah, I was going to follow up on the thing that you mentioned that we had many years with like not enough women choosing a career path in STEM and that we have to overcome this trend. What are some, like what is some advice you have like as the Vice-President Data Science? Like what can we do to make this feel more, you know, approachable and >> Yeah. >> accessible for women? >> Yeah, I, there's so much that we have done already and you know, want to continue, keep doing. Of course conferences like these were, you know and I think there are high school students here there are students from my Alma Mater's undergrad year. It's amazing to like get all these women together to get them to see what success could look like. >> Yeah. >> What being a woman leader in this space could look like. So that's, you know, that's one, at Meta I lead recruiting at Meta and we've done a bunch to sort of open up the thinking around data science and technical jobs for women. Simple things like what you write in your job description. I don't know whether you know this, or this is a story you've heard before, when you see, when you have a job description and there are like 10 things that you need to, you know be good at to apply to this job, a woman sees those 10 and says, okay, I don't meet the qualifications of one of them and she doesn't apply. And a man sees one that he meets the qualifications to and he applies. And so, you know, there's small things you can do, and just how you write your job description, what goals you set for diversity and inclusion for your own organization. We have goals, Facebook's always been pretty up there in like, you know, speaking out for diversity and Sheryl Sandberg has been our Chief Business Officer for a very long time and she's been, like, amazing at like pushing from more women. So yeah, every step of the way, I think, we made a lot of progress, to be honest. I do think women choose STEM fields a lot more than they did. When I did my Computer Science I was often one of one or two women in the Computer Science class. It takes some time to, for it to percolate all the way to like having more CTOs and CEOs, >> Yeah. >> but it's going to happen in our lifetime, and you know, three of us know this, women are going to rule the world, and it (laughs) >> Drop the mic, girl! >> And it's going to happen in our lifetime, so I'm excited about it. >> And we have responsibility in helping make that happen. You know, I'm curious, you were in STEM, you talked about Computer Science, being one of the only females. One of the things that the nadb.org data from 2022 showed, some good numbers, the number of women in technical roles is now 27.6%, I believe, so up from 25, it's up in '22, which is good, more hiring of women. >> Yeah. >> One of the biggest challenges is attrition. What keeps you motivated? >> Yeah. >> To stay what, where you are doing what you're doing, managing a family and helping to drive these experiences at Facebook that we all expect are just going to happen? >> Yeah, two things come to mind. It does take a village. You do need people around you. You know, I'm grateful for my husband. You talked about managing a family, I did the very Indian thing and my parents live with us, and they help take care of the kids. >> Right! (laughs) >> (laughs) My kids are young, six and four, and I definitely needed help over the last few years. It takes mentors, it takes other people that you look up to, who've gone through all of those same challenges and can, you know, advise you to sort of continue working in the field. I remember when my kid was born when he was six months old, I was considering quitting. And my husband's like, to be a good role model for your children, you need to continue working. Like, just being a mother is not enough. And so, you know, so that's one. You know, the village that you build around you your supporters, your mentors who keep encouraging you. Sheryl Sandberg said this to me in my second month at Facebook. She said that women drop out of technical fields, they become managers, they become sort of administrative more, in their nature of their work, and her advice was, "Don't do that, Don't stop the technical". And I think that's the other thing I'd say to a lot of women. Technical stuff is hard, but you know, keeping up with that and keeping sort of on top of it actually does help you in the long run. And it's definitely helped me in my career at Facebook. >> I think one of the things, and Hannah and I and Tracy talked about this in the open, and I think you'll agree with us, is the whole saying of you can't be what you can't see, and I like to way, "Well, you can be what you can see". That visibility, the great thing that WiDS did, of having you on the stage as a speaker this morning so people can understand, everyone, like I said, everyone knows Meta, >> Yeah. >> everyone uses Facebook. And so it's important to bring that connection, >> Yeah. >> of how data is driving the experiences, the fact that it's User First, but we need to be able to see women in positions, >> Yes. >> like you, especially with Sheryl stepping down moving on to something else, or people that are like YouTube influencers, that have no idea that the head of YouTube for a very long time, Susan Wojcicki is a woman. >> (laughs) Yes. Who pioneered streaming, and I mean how often do you are you on YouTube every day? >> Yep, every day. >> But we have to be able to see and and raise the profile of these women and learn from them and be inspired, >> Absolutely. >> to keep going and going. I like what I do, I'm making a difference here. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> And I can be the, the sponsor or the mentor for somebody down the road. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, and then referring back to what we talked in the beginning, show that data science is so diverse and it doesn't mean if you're like in IT, you're like sitting in your dark room, >> Right. (laughs) >> coding all day, but you know, >> (laughs) Right! >> to show the different facets of this job and >> Right! >> make this appealing to women, >> Yeah. for sure. >> And I said this in my keynote too, you know, one of the things that helped me most is complimenting the data and the techniques and the algorithms with how you work with people, and you know, empathy and alignment building and leadership, strategic thinking. And I think honestly, I think women do a lot of this stuff really well. We know how to work with people and so, you know, I've seen this at Meta for sure, like, you know, all of these skills soft skills, as we call them, go a long way, and like, you know, doing the right things and having a lasting impact. And like I said, women are going to rule the world, you know, in our lifetimes. (laughs) >> Oh, I can't, I can't wait to see that happen. There's some interesting female candidates that are already throwing their hats in the ring for the next presidential election. >> Yes. >> So we'll have to see where that goes. But some of the things that are so interesting to me, here we are in California and Palo Alto, technically Stanford is its own zip code, I believe. And we're in California, we're freaking out because we've gotten so much rain, it's absolutely unprecedented. We need it, we had a massive drought, an extreme drought, technically, for many years. I've got friends that live up in Tahoe, I've been getting pictures this morning of windows that are >> (laughs) that are covered? >> Yes, actually, yes. (Gayatree laughs) That, where windows like second-story windows are covered in snow. >> Yeah. >> Climate change. >> Climate change. >> There's so much that data science is doing to power and power our understanding of climate change whether it's that, or police violence. >> Yeah. (all talk together) >> We had talk today on that it was amazing. >> Yes. So I want more people to know what data science is really facilitating, that impacts all of us, whether you're in a technical role or not. >> And data wins arguments. >> Yes, I love that! >> I said this is my slide today, like, you know, there's always going to be doubters and naysayers and I mean, but there's hard evidence, there's hard data like, yeah. In all of these fields, I mean the data that climate change, the data science that we have done in the environmental and climate change areas and medical, and you know, medicine professions just so much, so much more opportunity, and like, how much we can learn more about the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's a pretty exciting time to be a data scientist. >> I feel like, we're just scratching the surface. >> Yeah. >> With the potential and the global impact that we can make with data science. Gayatree, it's been so great having you on theCUBE, thank you. >> Right, >> Thank you so much, Gayatree. >> So much, I love, >> Thank you. >> I'm going to take Data WiD's arguments into my personal life. (Gayatree laughs) I was actually just, just a quick anecdote, funny story. I was listening to the radio this morning and there was a commercial from an insurance company and I guess the joke is, it's an argument between two spouses, and the the voiceover comes in and says, "Let's watch a replay". I'm like, if only they, then they got the data that helped the woman win the argument. (laughs) >> (laughs) I will warn you it doesn't always help with arguments I have with my husband. (laughs) >> Okay, I'm going to keep it in the middle of my mind. >> Yes! >> Gayatree, thank you so much. >> Thank you so much, >> for sharing, >> Thank you both for the opportunity. >> And being a great female that we can look up to, we really appreciate your insights >> Oh, likewise. >> and your time. >> Thank you. >> All right, for our guest, for Hannah Freitag, I'm Lisa Martin, live at Stanford University covering "Women in Data Science '23". Stick around, our next guest joins us in just a minute. (upbeat music) I have been in the software and technology industry for over 12 years now, so I've had the opportunity as a marketer to really understand and interact with customers across the entire buyer's journey. Hi, I'm Lisa Martin and I'm a host of theCUBE. (upbeat music) Being a host on theCUBE has been a dream of mine for the last few years. I had the opportunity to meet Jeff and Dave and John at EMC World a few years ago and got the courage up to say, "Hey, I'm really interested in this. I love talking with customers, gimme a shot, let me come into the studio and do an interview and see if we can work together". I think where I really impact theCUBE is being a female in technology. We interview a lot of females in tech, we do a lot of women in technology events and one of the things I.

(intro music) >> Narrator: "theCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (gentle music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. As you well know, we are live at MWC23 in Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our coverage, as you know, 'cause you've been watching the first two days. A lot of conversations about ecosystem, a lot about disruption in the telco industry. We're going to be talking about Open RAN. You've heard some of those great conversations, the complexities, the opportunities. Two guests join Dave and me. Abdullah Abuzaid, Technical Product Manager at Dell, and Gil Hellmann, VP Telecom Solutions Engineering and Architecture at Wind River. Welcome to the program guys. >> Thank you. >> Nice to be here. >> Let's talk a little bit about Dell and Wind River. We'll each ask you both the same question, and talk to us about how you're working together to really address the complexities that organizations are having when they're considering moving from a closed environment to an open environment. >> Definitely. Thank you for hosting us. By end of the day, the relationship between Dell and Wind River is not a new. We've been collaborating in the open ecosystem for long a time enough. And that's one of the, our partnership is a result of this collaboration where we've been trying to make more efficient operation in the ecosystem. The open environment ecosystem, it has the plus and a concern. The plus of simplicity, choice of multiple vendors, and then the concern of complexity managing these vendors. Especially if we look at examples for the Open RAN ecosystem, dealing with multiple vendors, trying to align them. It bring a lot of operational complexity and TCO challenges for our customers, from this outcome where we build our partnership with Wind River in order to help our customer to simplify, or run deployment, operation, and lifecycle management and sustain it. >> And who are the customers, by the way? >> Mainly the CSP customers who are targeting Open RAN and Virtual RAN deployments. That digital transformation moving towards unified cloud environment, or a seamless cloud experience from Core to RAN, these are the customers we are working with them. >> You'll give us your perspective, your thoughts on the partnership, and the capabilities that you're enabling, the CSPs with that. >> Sure. It's actually started last year here in Barcelona, when we set together, and started to look at the, you know, the industry, the adoption of Open RAN, and the challenges. And Open RAN brings a lot of possibilities and benefit, but it does bring a lot of challenges of reintegrating what you desegregate. In the past, you purchase everything from one vendor, they provide the whole solution. Now you open it, you have different layers. So if you're looking at Open RAN, you have, I like to look at it as three major layers, the management, application, and the infrastructure. And we're starting to look what are the challenges. And the challenges of integration, of complexity, knowledge that operator has with cloud infrastructure. And this is where we basically, Dell and Winder River set together and say, "How can we ease this? "How we can make it simpler?" And we decided to partner and bring a joint infrastructure solution to market, that's not only integrated at a lab at the factory level, but it basically comes with complete lifecycle management from the day zero deployment, through the day two operation, everything done through location, through Dell supported, working out of the box. So basically taking this whole infrastructure layer integration pain out, de-risking everything, and then continuing from there to work with the ecosystem vendor to reintegrate, validate the application, on top of this infrastructure. >> So what is the, what is the Wind River secret sauce in this, in this mix, for folks who aren't familiar with what Wind River does? >> Yes, absolutely. So Wind River, for many, many don't know, we're in business since 1981. So over 40 years. We specialize high performance, high reliability infrastructure. We touch every aspect of your day and your life. From the airplane that you fly, the cars, the medical equipment. And if we go into the telco, most of the telco equipment that it's not virtualized, not throughout the fight today, using our operating system. So from all the leading equipment manufacturers and even the smaller one. And as the world started to go into desegregation in cloud, Wind River started to look at this and say, "Okay, everything is evolving. Instead of a device that included the application, the hardware, everything fused together, it's now being decomposed. So instead of providing the operating environment to develop and deploy the application to the device manufacturer, now we're providing it basically to build the cloud. So to oversimplify, I call it a cloud OS, okay. It's a lot more than OS, it's an operating environment. But we took basically our experience, the same experience that, you know, we used in all those years with the telco equipment manufacturer, and brought it into the cloud. So we're basically providing solution to build an on-premises scalable cloud from the core all the way to the far edge, that doesn't compromise reliability, doesn't compromise performance, and address all the telco needs. >> So I, Abdullah, maybe you can a answer this. >> Yeah. >> What is the, what does the go-to-market motion look like, considering that you have two separate companies that can address customers directly, separately. What does that, what does that look like if you're approaching a possible customer who is, who's knocking on the door? >> How does that work? >> Exactly. And this effort is a Dell turnkey sales service offering, or solution offering to our customers. Where Dell, in collaboration with Wind River, we proactively validate, integrate, and productize the solution as engineered system, knock door on our customer who are trying to transform to Open RAN or open ecosystem. We can help you to go through that seamless experience, by pre-validating with whatever workload you want to introduce, enable zero touch provisioning, and during the day one deployment, and ensure we have sustainable lifecycle management throughout the lifecycle of the product in, in operate, in operational network, as well as having a unified single call of support from Dell side. >> Okay. So I was just going to ask you about support. So I'm a CSP, I have the solution, I go to Dell for support. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So start with Dell, and level one, level two. And if there are complex issues related to the cloud core itself, then Wind River will be on our back supporting us. >> Talk a little bit about a cust, a CSP example that is, is using the technology, and some of the outcomes that they're able to achieve. I'd love to get both of your perspectives on that. >> Vodafone is a great example. We're here in Barcelona. Vodafone is the first ora network in Europe, and it's using our joint solution. >> What are some of the, the outcomes that it's helping them to achieve? >> Faster time to market. As you see, they already started to deploy the ORAN in commercial network, and very successful in the trials that they did last year. We're also not stopping there. We're evolving, working with them together to improve like stuff around energy efficiency. So continue to optimize. So the outcome, it's just simplifying it, and you know, ready to go. Using experience that we have, Wind River is powering the first basically virtualized RAN 5G network in the world. This is with Verizon. We're at the very large scale. We started this deployment in late '20 and '19, the first site. And then through 2020 to 2022, we basically rolled in large scale. We have a lot of experience learning from it, which what we brought into the table when we partnered with Dell. A lot of experience from how you deploy at scale. Many sites from a central location, updates, upgrade. So the whole day two operation, and this is coming to bearing the solution that basically Vodafone is deploying now, and which allowed them... If I, if I look at my engagement with Verizon, started years before we started. And it took quite some time until we got stuff running. And if you look at the Vodafone time schedule, was significantly compressed compared to the Verizon first deployment. And I can tell you that there are other service providers that were announced here by KDI, for example. It's another one moving even faster. So it's accelerating the whole movement to Ora. >> We've heard a lot of acceleration talk this week. I'd love to get your perspective, Abdullah, talking about, you know, you, you just mentioned two huge names in Telco, Vodafone and Verizon. >> Yep. >> Talk a little bit about Dell's commitment to helping telecommunications companies really advance, accelerate innovation so that all of us on the other end have this thing that just works wherever we are 24 by 7. >> Not exactly. And this, we go back to the challenges in Open ecosystem. Managing multiple vendors at the same time, is a challenge for our customers. And that's why we are trying to simplify their life cycle by have, by being a trusted partner, working with our customer through all the journey. We started with Dish in their 5G deployment. Also with Vodafone. We're finding the right partners working with them proactively before getting into, in front of the customer to, we've done our homework, we are ready to simplify the process for you to go for it. If you look at the RAN in particular, we are talking with the 5g. We have ran the simplification, but they still have on the other side, limited resources and skillset can support it. So, bringing a pro, ahead of time engineer system, with a zero touch of provisioning enablement, and sustainable life cycle management, it lead to the faster time to market deployment, TCO savings, improved margins for our customers, and faster business revenue for their end users. >> Solid outcomes. >> And, and what you just just described, justifies the pain associated with disaggregating and reintegrating, which is the way that Gill referenced it, which I think is great because you're not, you're not, you're not re-aggregating, (laughs) you're reintegrating, and you're creating something that's better. >> Exactly. >> Moving forward. Otherwise, why would you do it? >> Exactly. And if you look at it, the player in the ecosystem, you have the vendors, you have the service integrators, you have the automation enablers, but kind of they are talking in silos. Everyone, this is my raci, this is what I'm responsible for. I, I'm not able, I don't want to get into something else while we are going the extra mile by working proactively in that ecosystem to... Let's bring brains together, find out what's one plus one can bring three for our customers, so we make it end-to-end seamless experience, not only on the technical part, but also on the business aspect side of it. >> So, so the partnership, it's about reducing the pen. I will say eliminating it. So this is the, the core of it. And you mentioned getting better coverage for your phone. I do want to point out that the phones are great, but if you look at the premises of a 5G network, it's to enable a lot more things that will touch your life that are beyond the consumer and the phone. Stuff like connected vehicles. So for example, something as simple as collision avoidance, the ability for the car that goes in front of you to be able to see what's happening and broadcast this information to the car behind that have no ability to see it. And basically affect our life in a way that makes our driving safer. And for this, you need a ultra low, reliable low latency communication. You need a 5G network. >> I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, we think about, "Well we just have to be connected all the time." But those are some of the emerging technologies that are going to be potentially lifesaving, and, and really life transforming that you guys are helping to enable. So, really great stuff there, but so much promise coming down the road. What's next for Dell and Wind River? And, and when you're in conversations with prospective CSP's, what is the superpower that you deliver together? I'd love to get both of your perspectives. >> So, if you look at it, number one, customers look at it, last savings and their day-to-day operation. In 5G nature, we are talking the introduction of ORAN. This is still picking up. But there is a mutualization and densification of ORAN. And this is where we're talking on monetizing my deployment. Then the third phase, we're talking sustainability and advanced service introduction. Where I want to move not only ORAN, I want to bring the edge at the same side, I want to define the advanced use cases of edge, where it enables me with this pre-work being done to deliver more services and better SLA services. By end of the day, 5G as a girl mentioned earlier, is not about a good better phone coverage, or a better speed robot, but what customized SLA's I can deliver. So it enables me to deliver different business streams to my end users. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. I will say there are two pens. One, it's the technology side. So for an example, energy efficiency. It's a very big pin point. And sustainability. So we work a lot around this, and basically to advance this. So if you look at the integrated solution today, it's very highly optimized for resource consumption. But to be able to more dynamically be able to change your power profile without compromising the SLA. So this is one side. The other side, it's about all those applications that will come to the 5G network to make our life better. It's about integrating, validating, certifying those applications. So, it's not just easy to deploy an ORAN network, but it's easy to deploy those applications. >> I'd be curious to get your perspective on the question of ROI in this, in this space. Specifically with the sort of the macro headwinds (clears throat) the economies of the world are facing right now, if you accept that. What does the ROI timeline look like when you're talking about moving towards ORAN, adopting VRAN, an amazing, you know, a plethora of new services that can be delivered, but will these operators have the appetite to take that, make that investment and take on that risk based upon the ROI time horizon? Any thoughts on that? >> Yeah. So if you look at the early days or ORAN introduction in particular, most of the entrepreneurs of ORAN and Virtual RAN ran into the challenges of not only the complexity of open ecosystem, but the integration, is like the redos of the work. And that's where we are trying to address it via pre-engineered system or building an engineer system proactively before getting it to the customers. Per our result or outcomes we get, we are talking about 30 to 50% savings on the optics. We are talking 110 ROI for our customers, simply because we are reducing the redos, the time spent to discover and explore. Because we've done that rework ahead of time, we found the optimization issues. Just for example, any customer can buy the same components from any multiple vendors, but how I can bring them together and give, deliver for me the best performance that I can fully utilize, that's, that's where it brings the value for our customer, and accelerate the deployment and the operation of the network. >> Do you have anything to add before we close in the next 30 seconds? >> Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) >> Absolutely. I would say, we start to see the data coming from two years of operation at scale. And the data supports performance. It's the same or better than traditional system. And the cost of operation, it's as good or better than traditional. Unfortunately, I can't provide more specific data. But the point is, when something is unknown in the beginning, of course you're more afraid, you take more conservative approach. Now the data starts to flow. And from here, the intention needs to go even better. So more efficiency, so cost less than traditional system, both to operate as well as to build up. But it's definitely the data that we have today says, the, ORAN system is at part, at the minimum. >> So, definite ROI there. Guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about how you're helping organizations not just address the complexities of moving from close to open, but to your point, eliminating them. We appreciate your time and, and your insights. >> Thank you. >> All right. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. Live from MWC23. We'll be back after a short break. (outro music)