(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back, everyone, to Supercloud22. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." We're here all day talking about the future of cloud, where it's all going, making it super. Multicloud's around the corner, and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Bhaskar Gorti, CEO of Platform9, just on the panel on Kubernetes, an enabler or blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >> Good to see you again. >> So Kubernetes is a blocker or enabler with a question mark I put on. That panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now, great conversation, operations it's impacted. What's interesting about what you guys are doing at Platform9 is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform9 while you were at the helm. >> Right, absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well, and since they came to us. (John chuckling) It was an insight to call ourselves a platform company eight years ago, right, so absolutely, whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you to run infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform, and that's what area we come into. >> Bhaskar, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background, and we were kind of talking about the glory days of 2000, 2001, when the first ASPs, application service providers, came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all, kind of cloud-like. >> It was! >> And web services started then too, so you saw that whole growth. Now fast-forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles. >> In fact, you know, as we were talking offline, you know, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000, where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right. You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then, the tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right, so I think things are in a way the same, but also extremely different, but more importantly, now, for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company, is extremely mission-critical. It's no longer a nice to have. Everybody's in the journey somewhere. >> Everyone is going digital transformation. Here, even on a so-called downturn, recession that's upcoming, inflation's here, it's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscaled clouds, they're been pumping on all cylinders, as an economic input, and if you look at the tech trends, GDP's down, but not tech. >> Nope. >> 'Cause the pandemic showed everyone, digital transformation is here, and more spend and more growth is coming even in tech. So this is a unique factor, which proves that that digital transformation's happening, and every company will need a supercloud. >> Everyone, every company regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernized in infrastructure, and modernizing infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools. It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >> I want to get your thoughts on supercloud because one of the things Dave Vellante and I wanted to do with supercloud and calling it that was, I personally, and I know Dave as well. He can speak for himself. We didn't like multicloud, I mean, not because Amazon said, "Don't call things multicloud." It just didn't feel right. I mean, everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365, but it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized. It wasn't truly cloud-enabled. It felt like they're not ready for a market yet, yet public cloud's booming. On premise, private cloud and edge is much more, you know, more dynamic, more real. >> Yeah, I think the reason why we think supercloud is a better term than multicloud, multicloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected, okay. You have a productivity cloud. You have a Salesforce cloud. Everyone has an internal cloud, right, but they are not connected, so you can say, "Okay, it's more than one cloud, so it's multicloud," but supercloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically, whether it is on prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's at store, at the branch, you are looking at this as one unit, and that's where we see the term supercloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a supercloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, but at the same time, you need a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right, so I think supercloud is actually a more tightly integrated, orchestrated management philosophy, we think. >> So let's get into some of the supercloud-type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is as the pilots, get the conversations flowing with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders. Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third. Cloudworks in public cloud, we see the use cases, on premises use cases. (arm thudding) Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's been coming from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that OpenStack. We need an orchestration, and then containers had a good shot with Docker. They repivoted the company. Now, they're all in an open source, so you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new de facto enabler? >> It is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise, somewhere in the journey's going on, and you know, most companies, or 70-plus percent of them, have one, two, three container-based, Kubernetes-based applications now being rolled out, so it's very much here. It is in production at scale by many customers, and the beauty of it is yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skillset, and that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right, so it's one thing to buy a tool, and another one- >> And just to be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >> We provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service, and it can run anywhere. It can run on public, private. We have customers who do it in truly multicloud environments. It runs on the edge. It runs in stores. There are thousands of stores and retailer. So we provide that, and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also run on prem as an air gap version. >> Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a supercloud experience for your customer? >> Right. I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I don't know, hundreds of products, hundreds of foreign lead teams that are building different products, and if you look a few years back, each one was doing it on a different platform, but they really needed to bring the agility, and they worked with us now over three years, where we are their build test dev platform where all their products are built on, right, and it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light-sort operation. In fact, the customer says, like the Maytag service person, 'cause we provide it as a service, and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. So it's kind of like an instant revibe, one person managing a large- >> 4,000 engineers building infrastructure. >> On their tools, whatever they want to do. >> On their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform as a service. >> And what benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >> Speed definitely. >> Okay. >> Definitely, they're seeing speed. Uniformity, because now, they're able to build. So their customers, who are using product A and product B, are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >> So a big problem that's coming out of this supercloud event that we're seeing, and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams 'cause they're kind of part of one team, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed-wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? >> Right, so we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams, and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you'll have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. >> Who's your buyer? >> Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at, or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally, CIO definitely. So it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure, but the ideal one we are beginning to see now, many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying, "We have a platform group on which any app can be developed, and it is run on any infrastructure," so the platform engineering teams- >> So you work on two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then? >> And the infrastructure. >> On the upside, okay. >> Another customer, and I'll give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge or the store, so they have thousands of stores. >> Retail. >> Retail, you know, food retailer, right. They have thousands of stores around the globe, 50,000; 60,000, and they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. There are applications that were done in the '90s, and then they have very modern AI/ML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store, or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. They menu changes based on- >> It's the classic edge. >> It's classic edge, right. >> Yeah. >> They can't send IT people to go install racks of servers. Then they can't send software people to go install the software, and any change you want to put through that. There are truckloads, so they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that- >> You say little servers. Like how big? >> One, you know. >> Like a Netgear box? >> It's a box. >> Like small little light box. >> Yeah, it's a box. >> And all the person in the store has to do, like what you and I do at home, and we get a, you know, a router, is connect the power, connect the internet, and turn the switch on, and from there, we pick it up, we provide the operating system, everything, and then the applications are put on it, and so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage thousands like that. >> True plug and play. >> True plug and play, thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right, so that's another example where on the edge. Then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds, okay, but they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. >> So you guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. That's awesome. The question I want to ask you that's come up is what is truly cloud native? 'Cause there's lift and shift to the cloud. >> That's not cloud native. >> Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says, "What's cloud native? What isn't cloud native?" >> Right, look, I think, first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition, and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, a CNC foundation. I mean, I think it's very well-documented, very well- >> KubeCon, of course, in Detroit's coming out. >> So it's already there, right. So we follow that very closely, right. I think just lifting and shifting your 20-year-old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native, okay. You can't port to cloud native. You have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools, hopefully more open source, and I think that's what cloud native is, and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now, everybody wants to be cloud native, but it's not that easy, okay, because I think it's, first of all, skillset is very important, uniformity of tools. There's so many tools. There are thousands and thousands of tools. You could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. (John laughing) Okay, so I think the complexity's there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly being done, and I'll give you an example. I don't know how cloud native they are, right, and they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas. You do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how Domino's actually increase their share, and mine share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not. I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, and how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered, they were the pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >> Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations are for the customer. >> Customer, the customer's expectations change, right. Once you get used to a better customer experience, you will not. >> Bhaskar, to wrap it up, I want to just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you a part of the Supercloud22 is you've seen many cycles. You have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career, where you've been, and what you've done, and now, the CEO of Platform9, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur. You sold your company to Oracle. You've been seeing the big companies. You're seeing the different waves. What's going on right now? Put it into context, this moment in time, all right, supercloud. >> Sure. I think, as you said, a lot of battle scars. Being in an ASP, being in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses in a transformation. I've been on the outside. I did the infrastructure, right, and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to become cloud native and digitalized, if I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami (chuckles) that's going on, couple of parallels come to me. One is, think of it which is forced on us, like Y2K. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for Y2K. I would say the next big thing was ecommerce. I think ecommerce has been pervasive, right, across all industries. >> And disruptive. >> And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your ecommerce initiative, it was an existence question. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloud native. That is what I see happening now. >> I think that ecommerce is interesting, and I think, just to riff with you on that, is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game. It's just changing how you operate. >> How you think and how you operate, see, if you think about the early days of ecommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't make you an ecommerce or an eretailer or an ecustomer, right. So I think it's the same thing now, is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business, how you would operate, how you want to service your customers. I think it requires that just lift and shift is not going to work. >> Bhaskar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Supercloud22. We really appreciate it. We're going to keep this open. We're going to keep this conversation going even after the event to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open, in the community, and we're going to keep this going for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud, cloud computing. I'm John Furrier with Supercloud22 and "theCUBE." Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

[Music] we're here with steve melanie the president and ceo of aviatrix steve john and i started this whole super cloud narrative as a way to describe that something different is happening specifically within the aws ecosystem but more broadly across the cloud landscape at re invent last year you and i spoke on the cube and you said one of your investors guy named nick sterile said to you at the show it's happening steve welcome to the cube what's happening what did nick mean by that yeah we were we were just getting ready to go on and i leaned over and he looked at me and he whispered in my ear and said it's happening he said it just like that and and you're right it was it was kind of funny and we talked about that and what he means is enterprises you know this is why i went to aviatrix three and a half years ago is the the the flip switch for enterprises and they said now we mean it we've been talking about cloud for 12 years or 15 years now we mean it we are digitally transforming we are the movement to cloud is going to make that happen and oh by the way of course it's multi-cloud because enterprises put workloads where they run best where they have the best security the best performance the best cost and the business is driving this transformation and they decide that i'm going to use that azure and another business unit decides i'm using google and another one says i'm using aws and so of course it's going to be multi-cloud and i think we're going to start seeing actual multi-cloud applications once that infrastructure and you know you call it the super cloud once that starts getting built developers are going to go wait a minute so i can pick this feature from google and and that service from azure and that service from aws easily without any hesitation once that happens they're going to start really developing today there aren't multi-cloud applications but but but the what's happening is the enterprise embracing public cloud they're using multiple clouds many of them call it four plus one right they're four different public clouds plus what they have on prem that to me is what's happening i am now re-architecting my enterprise infrastructure from applications all the way down to the network and i am embracing uh uh public clouds in that in that process so i mean you nailed us so many things in there i mean digitally transforming to me this is the digital transformation it's leveraging embracing the capex from the hyperscalers now you know people in the industry we're not trying to do what gartner does and create a new category per se but we do use super cloud as a metaphor so i don't expect necessarily vendors to use it or not but but i and i get that but when you talk about multi-cloud what specifically is new in other words what you touched on some of this stuff what constitutes a modern multi-cloud or what we would call a super cloud you know network architecture what are the salient attributes yeah i would say today so two years ago there was no such thing even as multiple clouds it was aws let's be clear everything was aws and for people to even back then two three years ago to even envision that there would be anything else other than aws people couldn't even envision now people kind of go yeah that was done we now see that we're going to use multiple clouds we're going to use azure we're going to use gcp and we're going to use this and we'll guess we're going to use oracle and even ollie cloud we're going to use five or four or five different public clouds what's but that would be i think of as multiple clouds but from an i.t perspective they need to be able to support all those clouds in these shared services and what they're going to do i actually think we're starting and you may have hit on something in the super cloud or i know you've talked about metacloud that that's got bad connotations for facebook i know everybody's like no please not another meta thing but there is that concept of this abstracted layer above you know writing we call it you know altitude you know aviatrix everything's you know riding above the clouds right that that that common abstracted layer this application infrastructure that runs the application that rides above all the different public clouds and i think once we do that you know dave what's going to happen is i think really what's going to happen is you're going to start seeing these these multi-cloud applications which to my knowledge really doesn't exist today i i think that might be the next phase and in order for that to happen you have to have all of the infrastructure be multi-cloud meaning not just networking and network security from from from aviation but you need snowflake you need hashtag you need datadog you need all the new horsemen of the new multi-cloud which isn't the old guys right this is all new people aviatrix dashie snowflake datadonk you name it that are going to be able to deliver all this multi-cloud cross-cloud wherever you want to talk about it such that application development and deployment can happen seamlessly and frictionlessly across multi-cloud once that happens the entire stack then you're going to start seeing and that to me starts enabling this what you guys call you know the super cloud the meta cloud the whatever cloud but that then rides above all the individual clouds that that's going to start getting a whole new realm of application development in my mind so we've got some work to do to basic do some basic blocking and tackling then the application developers can really build on top of that so so some of the skeptics on on this topic would ask how do you envision this changing networking versus it just being a bolt-on to existing fossilized network infrastructure in other words yeah how do we get from point a where we are today to point b you know so-called networking so we can actually build those uh super cloud applications yeah so you know what it is it's interesting because it goes back to my background at nasira and what we used to talk about then it isn't about managing complexity it's about creating simplicity it's very different and when you put the intelligence into the software right this is what computer science is all about we're turning networking into computer science when you create an abstraction layer we are not just an overlay day we dave we actually integrate in with the native services of the cloud we are not managing the complexity of these multi-clouds we are using it you know controlling the native constructs adding our own intelligence to this and then creating what is basically simplification for the people above it so we're simplifying things not just managing the complexity that's how you get the agility for cloud that's how you get to be able to do this because if all you are is a veneer on top of complexity you're just hiding complexity you're not creating simplicity and what happens is it actually probably gets more complex because if all you're doing is hiding the bad stuff you're not getting rid of it i love that i love that we're doing that at the networking and network security layer you're going to see snowflake and datadog and other people do it at their layers you know i reminds of a conversation i had with cause the one of the founders of pure storage who they're all about simplicity this idea of of creating simplicity versus like you said just creating you know a way to handle the complexity compare you know pure storage with the sort of old legacy emc storage devices and that's what you had you had you you had emc managing the complexity at pure storage disrupting by creating simplicity so what are the challenges of creating that simplicity and delivering that seamless experience that continuous experience across cloud is it engineering is it mindset is it culture is it technology what is it well i mean look at look you see the recession that we're we're hitting you see there is a significant problem that we have in the general it industry right now and it's called skills gap skills shortage it's two problems we don't have enough people and we don't have enough people that know cloud and the reason is everybody on the same tuesday three and a half years ago all said now i mean i'm moving the cloud we're a technology company we don't make sneakers anymore we don't make beer we're a technology company and we're going to digitally transform and we're going to move the cloud guess what three years ago there were probably seven people that understood cloud now everyone on the same tuesday morning all decides to try to hire those same seven people there's just not enough people around so you're going to need software and you're going to have to put the intelligence into the software because you're not going to be able to a hire those people and b even if you hire them you can't keep them as soon as they learn cloud guess what happens dave they're off they're on to the next job at the next highest bidder so how are you going to handle that you have to have software that intelligent software that is going to simplify things for you we have people managing massive multi-cloud network and network security people with two people on-prem they got hundreds right you it's not about taking that complex model that it had on-prem and jam it into the cloud you don't have the people to do it and you're not going to get the people to do it you know i want to ask you yeah so i want to ask you about the go to market challenges because we our industry gets a bad rap for for selling we're really good at selling and then but but actually delivering what we sell sometimes we fall down there so so i love tom sweet as cfo of of dell he talks about the the say do ratio uh how that's actually got to be low but you know but you know what i mean uh the math the fraction guy right so but do do what you say you're going to do are there specific go to market challenges related to this type of cross cloud selling where you can set you have to set the customer's expectations because what you're describing is not going to happen overnight it's a journey but how do you handle that go to market challenge in terms of setting those customer expectations and actually delivering what you say you can sell and selling enough to actually have a successful business um so i think everything's outside in so so i think the the what really is exciting to me about this cloud computing model that with the transformation that we're going through is it is business-led and it is led by the ceo and it is led by the business units they run the business it is all about agility is about enabling my developers and it's all about driving the business market share revenue all these kind of things you know the last transformation of mainframe to on to pc client server was led by technologists it wasn't led by the business and it was it was really hard to tie that to the business so then so this is great because we can look at the initiatives you can look at the the the initiatives of the ceo in your company and now as an i.t person you can tie to that and they're going to have two or three or four initiatives and you can actually map it to that so that's where we start is let's look at what the c your ceo cares about he cares about this he cares about that he cares about driving revenue he cares about agility of getting new applications out to the market sooner to get more revenue there's this and oh by the way transfer made transforming your infrastructure to the cloud is the number one thing so it's all about agility so guess what you need to be able to respond to that immediately because tomorrow the business is going to go to you and say great news dave we're moving to gcp wait what no one told me about that well we're telling you now and uh you need to be ready tomorrow and if you're sitting there and you're tied to the low-level constructs and all you know is aws well i don't have those people and even if i have even if i could hire them i'm not allowed to because i can't hire anybody how am i going to respond to the business and the needs of the business now all of a sudden i'm in the way as the infrastructure team of the ceo's goals because we decided we need to we need to get the ai capabilities of gcp and we're moving to gcp or i just did a big deal with gcp and uh miraculously they said i need to run on gcp right i did a big deal with google right guess what comes along with that oh you're moving to gcp great the business says we're moving to gcp and the i.t guys are sitting there going well no one told me well sorry so it's all about agility it's all about that and the and and complexity is the killer to agility this is all about business they're going to come to you and say we just acquired a company we need to integrate them oh but they got they use the same ip address range as we do there's overlapping ips and oh by the way they're in a different cloud how do i do that no one cares the business doesn't care they're like me they're very impatient get it done or we'll find someone who will yeah so you've got to get ahead of that and so when we in terms of when we talk to customers that's what we do this isn't just about defenses this is about making you get promoted making you do good for your company such that you can respond to that and maybe even enable the company to go do that like we're going to enable people to do true multi-cloud applications because the infrastructure has to come first right you you put the foundation in your big skyscraper like the crew behind me and the plumbing before you start building the floors right so infrastructure comes first then comes then comes the applications yeah so you know again some people call it super cloud like us multi-cloud 2.0 but the the real mega trend that i see steve and i'd love you to bottom line this and bring us home is you know andreessen's all companies are software companies it's like version 2.0 of that and the applications that are going to be built on that top this tie into the digital transformations it was goldman it's jpmc it's walmart it's capital one b of a oracle's acquisition of cerner is going to be really interesting to see these super clouds form within industries bringing their data their tooling and their specific software expertise built on top of that hyperscale infrastructure and infrastructure for companies like yours so bottom line is stephen steve what's the future of cloud how do you see it the future is n plus one so two years ago people had one plus one i had what i had on prem and then what i had in aws they today if you talk to an enterprise they'll have what they call four plus one right which is four public clouds plus what i have on prem it's going to n plus one right and what's going to happen is exactly what you said you're going to have industry clouds you're going to the the multi-cloud aspect of it is going to end it's not going to go from four to one some people think oh it's not going to be four it's going down to one or two bs it's going to end it's going to a lot as they start extending to the edge and they start integrating out to the to the branch offices it's not going to be about that branch offer so that edge iot or edge computing or data centers or campus connecting into the cloud it's going to be the other way around the cloud is going to extend to those areas and you're going to have ai clouds you know whether it's you know ultra beauty who's a customer of ours who's starting to roll out ar and vr out to their retail stores to show you know makeup and this and the other thing these are new applications transformations are always driven by new applications that don't exist this isn't about lift and shift of the existing applications the 10x tam in this market is going to becomes all the new things that's where the explosion is going to happen and you're going to see end level those those branch offices are going to look like clouds and they're going to need to be stitched together and treated like one infrastructure so it's going to go from four plus one to n plus one and that's what you're gonna want as an enterprise i'm gonna want n clouds so we're gonna see an explosion it's not going to be four it's going to be end now at the end underneath all of that will be leveraging and effectively commoditizing the existing csps yeah and but you're going to have an explosion of people commoditizing them and just like the goldmans and the industry clubs are going to do they're going to build their own eye as well right no way no way it's that's what's going to happen it's going to be a 10x on what we saw last decade with sas it's all going to happen around clouds and supercloud steve malini thanks so much for coming back in the cube and helping us sort of formulate this thinking i mean it really started with with with you and myself and john and nick and really trying to think this through and watching this unfold before our eyes so great to have you back thank you yeah it's fun thanks for having me are you welcome but keep it right there for more action from super cloud 22 be right back [Music] you

>>Welcome back to super cloud 22, our inaugural event. It's a pilot event here in the cube studios we're live and streaming virtually until we do it in person. Maybe next year. I'm John fury, host of the cube with Dave Lon two great guests, distinguished engineers managers, CTOs investors. Mariana Tessel is a CTO of Intuit ins Ray founder of vertex ventures. Both have a lot of DNA. Founder allow cloud here with mark Andre and Ben Horowitz, a variety of other great ventures you've done. And now you're an investor. Yep. Maria, you've been a seasoned CTO, VP of engineering, VMware Docker Intuit. Now thanks for joining us. >>Absolutely. >>So super cloud is a, is a thing. And apparently it's got a lot of momentum and you guys got stats over there at, at Intuit in, so you're investing and we were challenged on super cloud. Our initial thesis was you build on the clouds, get all that leverage like snowflake, you get a good differentiation and then you compete and then move to other clouds. Now it's becoming a thing where I can do this. Every enterprise could possibly do it. So I want to get your guys thoughts on what you think of super cloud concept and where are the holes in it, what needs to be defined. And so we'll start with you. You've done a lot of cloud things in your day. What >>Do you think? Yeah, it's the whole cloud journey started with a desire to consolidate and desire to actually provide uniformity and, and standards driven ways of doing things. And I think Amazon was a leader there. They helped kind of teach everybody else. You know, when I was in loud cloud, we were trying to do it with proprietary stacks just wouldn't work. But once everyone standardized upon Unix and you know, the chip sets no longer became as relevant. They did a lot of good things there, but what's happened since then is now you've got competing standards at the API layer at the interface layer no longer at the chip set layer, no longer at the operating system layer. Right? So the evolution of the, the, the battles are still there. When you talk about multicloud and super cloud, though, like one of the big things you have to keep in mind is latency is not free. Latency is very expensive and it's getting even more expensive now with, with multi-cloud. So you have to really understand where the separations of boundaries are between your data, your compute, and, and the network is just there as a facilitator to help binding compute and data. Right? And I think there's a lot of bets being made across different vendors like CloudFlare Akamai, as well as Amazon Google Microsoft in terms of how they think we should take computing either to the edge, from the core or back and forth. >>These, this is structural change. I mean, this is structural, >>It's desired by incumbents, but it's not something that I'm seeing from the consumption. I'd love to hear, hear from our end's per perspective, from a consumption point of view, like how much edge computing really matters. Right. >>Mario. >>So I think there's like, there's kind of a, a story of like two, like it's kind of, you can cut it for both edges. No, no pun intended on one end. It is really simplifying to actually go into like a single cloud and standardize on it and just have everything there. But I think what over time companies find is that they end up in multiple clouds, whether like, you know, through acquisitions or through like needing to use a service in another cloud. So you do find yourself in a situation where you have multi multi-cloud and you have to kind of work through it and understand how to make it all like work and latency is an issue, but also for many, many workloads, you can work around it and you can make it work where you have workloads that actually span multiple vendors and clouds. You know, again, having said that, I would say the world is such, that is still a simplifying assumption. When if you go to a single cloud, it's much easier to just go and, and bet on that >>Easier in terms of everything's integrated, IAS works with SAS, they solve a lot of problems. >>Correct. And you can do like for your developers, you can actually provide an environment that's super homogenous, simple. You can use services easily up and down the stack. And, you know, we, we actually made that deliberate decision. When we started migrating to the cloud at the beginning, it was like, oh, let's do like hybrid we'll, you know, make it, so it work anywhere. It was so complicated. It was not worth it. >>When was the, when did you give up, what was the moment? Was there a flash point where you said, oh, this is terrible. This is >>Dead. Yeah. When, when we started to try to make it interoperable and you just see what it requires to do that and the complexity of the architecture that it just became not worth it for the gains you have. >>So speaking obviously as a SAS provider, right. So it just doesn't, it didn't make business case sense for you guys to do that. So it was super cloud. Then an infrastructure thing we just heard from Ben wa deja VI that they're not, they're going beyond instantiating their, their data cloud. They're actually running, you know, their own little snow grid. They called it. And, and then when I asked him, well, what about latency? He said, well, we copied data over, you know, so, okay. That's you have to do, but that's a singular experience with the same governance or the same security. Just wasn't worth it for you guys is what I'm hearing. >>Correct. But again, like for some workload or for some services that we want to use, we are gonna go there and we are gonna then figure out what is the work around the latency issue, whether it's like copy or, you know, redundancy. >>Well, the question I have Dave on snowflake is maybe the question for you and in the panel is snowflake a tan expansion opportunity, or is there a technical reason to go to other clouds? >>I think they wanted to leverage the hyperscale infrastructure globally. And they said that they're out there, it's a free gift. We're gonna go take it. I, I think it started with we're on AWS. Do you think? And then we're on Azure and then we're on Google. And then they said, why don't we just connect all these and make it a singular experience? And yeah, I guess it's a TA expansion as a differentiator and it's, it adds value. Right. If I can share data across that global network, >>We have customers on Azure now, >>Right? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. >>You guys don't need to go CP. What do you think about that? >>Well, I think Snowflake's in a good position cuz they work mostly with analytical workloads and you have capacity. That's always gonna increase like no one subtracts, their analytical workload like ever, right. So there was just compounded growth is like 50% or 80% for, you know, many enterprises despite their best intentions, not to collect more data, they just can't stop doing it. So it's different than if you're like an Oracle or a transactional database where you don't have those, you know, like kind of infinite growth paths. So Snowflake's gonna continue to expand footprint their customers. They don't mind as long as you, they can figure out the, the lowest cost on denominator for, for that. >>Yeah. So it makes sense to be in all the clouds >>For them, for, for them, for sure. Yeah. >>But, but, but Oracle just announced with Microsoft what I would call super cloud, a, a cross cloud database service running on OCI and Azure with very low latency and a database that looks like a, the singular experience. Yeah. With, with a PAs layers >>That lost me after OCI that's >>Okay. You know, but that's the, that's the, the BS answer for all U VCs. The do nobody develops on Oracle? Well, it's a 240 billion market cap company. Show me who you all want be. >>We're gonna talk about SRDF and em C next, you >>All want Oracle. So there we go. You throw that into, you all want Oracle to buy your companies, your funding, you know, cause, cause we all wanna be like Oracle with that kinda cash flow. But, but anyway, >>Here's, here's one thing that I'm noticing that is gonna be really practical. I think for companies that do run SA is because like, you know, you have all these solutions, whether it's like analytics or like monitoring or logging or whatever. And each one of them is very data hungry and all of them have like SAS solutions that end up copy the data, moving data to their cloud, and then they might charge you by the size of your data. It does become kind of overwhelming for companies to use that many tools and basically maybe have that data kind of charge for it, multiple places because you use it for different purposes or just in general, if you have a lot of data, you know, that that is becoming an issue. So that's something that I've noticed in our, in our own kind of, you know, a world, but it's just something that I think companies need to think about how they solve because eventually a lot of companies will say, I cannot have all these solutions, so there's no way I'm gonna be willing to have so many copies of the data and actually pay for that. >>So many times, just something to think about. >>But one of the criticisms of the super cloud concept is that it's just SAS. If I'm running workload on prem and I, and I've got, you know, a connection to the cloud, which you probably do, that's, that's SAS, what's, what's the big deal and that's not anything new or different. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But Goldman Sachs, for instance, just announced the service last reinvent with AWS, connecting their tools, their data, and their software from on-prem to AWS, they're offering it as a service. I'm like, Hmm. Kind of looking like Supercloud, but maybe it's just SAS. >>It could be. And like, what I'm talking about is not so much like, you know, like what you wanna connect your data. But the idea is like a lot of the providers of different services, like in the past and, and like higher layer, they're actually COPI the data. They need the data in their cloud or their solution. And it just becomes complicated and expensive is, is kind of like my point. So yes, connecting it like for you to have the data in one place and then be able to connect to it. I think that is a valid, if, if that's kinda what you think about as a super cloud, that is a valid need, I think that companies will >>Have where developers actually want access to tools that might exist. >>Also the key is developers, right? Yeah. Developers decide all decisions, not database on administrators, not, you know, a hundred percent security engineers, not admins. So what's really interesting is where are the developers going next? If you look at the current winners in the current ecosystem, companies like MongoDB, I mean, they capture the minds of yeah. The JavaScript, you know, no JS developers absolutely very early on. And I started catch base and I could tell you like the difference was that capture motion was so important. So developers are basically used to this game-like experience now where they want to see tools that are free, whether it's open source or not, they actually don't care. They just want, and they want it SAS. They want it SAS delivered on demand. Right. And pay as you go. And so there's a lot of these different frameworks coming out next generation, no code, low code, whether it's Java, JavaScript, rust, you know, whatever, you know, go Lang. And there's a lot of people fighting religious wars about how to develop the next kind of modern pattern design pattern. Okay. And that's where a lot of excitement is how we look at like investment opportunities. Like where are those big bets who are, you know, frustrated developers, who are they frustrated, what's wrong with their current environment? You know, do they really enjoy using Kubernetes or trying to use Kubernetes? Yeah. Right. Like developers have a very different view than operator, >>But you mentioned couch base. I mean, I look at couch base what they're doing with Capellas as a form of Supercloud. I mean, I think that's an excellent, they're bringing that out to the edge. We're gonna hear later on from someone from couch base. That's gonna talk about that now. It's kind of a lightweight, you know, sort of, it's gonna be a, a synchronization, but it's the beginning >>A cool new venture deal that I'm not in, but was like duck DB. I'm like, what's duck DB like, well, it's an Emory database that has like this like remote store thing. I'm like, okay, that sounds interesting. Like let's call Mike Olson cuz that sounds like sleepy cat redone red distributed world. But like it's, it's like there's a lot of people refactoring design patterns that we're all grew up with since the popup days of, you know, typical round. Right? >>Yeah. That's the refactory I think that's the big pattern. So I have to ask you guys, what are you guys investing in? We've got a couple minutes left to chat about that. What are you investing at into it from a, from a, a CTO engineering perspective and what are you investing in that feels super cloud like to you? >>Well, the, the thing that like I'm focused on is to make sure that we have absolutely best in the world development environment for our engineers, where it's modern, it's easy to use and it incorporates as many things as we can into that environment. So the engineers don't have to think about it. Like one big example would be security and how we incorporated that into development environment. So again, the engineers don't have to bother with trying to think through how they secure their workloads and every step of the way their other things that we incorporated, whether it's like rollbacks or monitoring or, you know, like baly enough other things. But I think that's really an investment that has panned off for us. We actually started investing in development environment several years ago. We started measure our development velocity and we, it actually went up by six X justly investing. So >>User experience, developer experience and productivity pretty much right. >>Yeah. AB absolutely. Yeah. That's like a big investment area for us that, you know, cloud cloud >>Sounds like super cloudlike factor and I'm assuming it's you're on AWS. >>We are mostly on AWS. Yes. >>And so what are you investing in that from a VC money doling out standpoint? That feels super cloudlike >>So very similar to what we just touched on a lot of developer tool experiences. We have a company that we've invested in called ops level that the service catalogs it's, it's helping, you know, understand your, where your services live and how they could be accessed and, and you know, enterprise kind of that come with that. And then we have a company called Lugo that helps you do serverless debugging container debugging, cuz it turns out debugging distributed, you know, applications is a real problem right now just you can only do so much by log tracing, right? We have a company haven't announced yet that's in the web assembly space. So we're looking at modernizing the next generation past stack and throwing everything out the window, including Java and all of the, you know, current prebuilt components because turns out 90% of enterprise workloads are actually not used. They're they're just policy code. You compiled with they're sitting there as vulnerabilities that no one's actually accessing, but you still have to compile with all of it. So we have a lot of bloatware happening in the enterprise. So we're thinking about how do you skinny that up with the next generation paths that's enterprise capable with security context and frameworks >>Super pass. >>Well, yeah, super pass. That's a kind of good way to, well, is >>It, is it a consistent developer experience across clouds? >>It is. And, and, and, and web assembly is a very raw standard if you can call it that. I mean it's, but it's supported by every modern browser, every major platform, vendor cloud, and Adobe and others, and are using it for their uses. And it's not just about your edge browser compute. It's really, you can take the same framework and compile it down to server side as well as client site, just like JavaScript was a client side tool before it became node. Right. Right. So we're looking at that as a very interesting opportunity. It's very nascent. Yeah. >>Great patterns. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for spending the time outta your busy day. Ariana. Thanks for your commentary. Appreciate your coming on the cubes first in IGUR super cloud event, pilot. Thanks for, for sharing. Thanks for having, thanks for having us. Okay. More coverage here. Super cloud 2022. I'm Jeff David Alane stay with us. We got our cloud ARA panel coming up next.

>>Welcome back everyone to Supercloud 22. This is the Cube's live presentation streaming out virtually our inaugural event, kind of a pilot I'm John Furo of the cube with Dave ante. Got a great panel here to discuss the enablers and blockers question mark for superclouds. We got, we got kit Culbert, CTO of VMware basketball, Gor CEO platform nine, and has Pani who is the CEO of RA systems. We got a mix of the big leader, VMware and the upstart companies growing into the same space, all cloud native friends of the cube. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. Thank >>You. >>Start. All right. So there's no debate cloud native is booming. We see that clearly Kubernetes became a unifying force. It's an ops layer kind of almost like a kind of a midline between dev and ops DevSecOps is happening at scale. What are the blockers and what are the enablers for super cloud? What do we need? Let's see what do get your take? >>Sure. So UN I spoke about this a little bit in, at New York summit, the big trend I'm seeing, and it's, it's a blocker that's being sort of taken care of by enterprises, which is, you know, until very recently, Kubernetes was effectively a project that NA would take on. They'd try things out, they'd go to the cloud, they'd spin things up. And then the next team would come and they'd do the same things. And there was no consistency. There was no ization, it's a mess, right? It's all over the place. Some things are moving fast. Some things are not going fast and this is not how enterprises do business, right? That's not how things work. Traditionally enterprises have had it organizations that create standards, right? So those it organizations now kind of are starting to think like a platform organization. So centrally come up with the right framework for all application teams to consume infrastructure, modern infrastructure. So I'm not using the word Kubernetes here because Kubernetes is an enabler. We are a Kubernetes company, obviously, but it's about modern applications, modern infrastructure. So stepping back and thinking about it as to how an enterprise will do this across the board is the right answer. And I'm seeing this happen in a pretty significant way across all the large enterprises I talked to. >>That's why you've had a great career. And we talked before you came on Opia you did a turnaround there, we, you even go back to the old days of the web web 1.0 and early software. You've seen the movie before. >>Yes. >>You know, complexity is not solved way more complexity. This is kind of the old enterprise way. And they don't want that. They've seen the benefits of self-service. They see architecture and standards as being an enabler. Where are we in here in the market? Is, are we positioned in your opinion for customers to get the value of a super cloud? >>Absolutely. So if you think about, first of all, I think the topic of cloud native developers and app developers picking containers and Kubernetes, that's a done deal, right? That has already happened. So every cloud native developer is already using these tools. Now, I think as has been discussed today in you, in the earlier sessions, is, are the operations and infrastructure catching up or they're lagging behind, right? As more and more developers are using multi-cloud technologies, enterprises are creating a choice, I think operations and what we also strongly believe that's actually part of the name of our company is, is a platform. The platform of which a company uses to transform itself to be cloud native is the big opportunity. I don't think it's a blocker, but it's a huge opportunity. And I think this is where, you know, as you can't stop developers from developing on different clouds, private, public, multi edge, that's gonna happen. Innovation is gonna continue. But then how does the infrastructure in the platform make it seamless? Right? And almost treat all these different clouds as a single pan super cloud platform. That's I think is the >>Opportunity. So we in a platform more than with other companies, or is there one unified platform called cloud native? We know customers been buying tools from security they're they got so many tools in, in their tools shed, so to speak. What is that platform? I mean, is it more unique, fragmentation? Is it unified? >>I mean, if you think about it, a couple of it's a combination of tools that are stitched together to reach a purpose, right? So if you think about, you know, APIs continued APIs that's been discussed earlier today, I think that's, that should be standardized. The other thing is always on monitoring because I think that's a very key aspect. Once you build it, then as the enterprises are using it, the always on monitoring becomes. So I think it's a combination of capabilities that are stitched together to enable the acceleration for companies to become cloud native. >>I, I have a thought on a blocker. None of you guys are gonna like it. Oh, maybe you can come. Maybe some of you guys probably won't but comment, but maybe John will. I think AWS is a blocker to Supercloud cuz they, they don't want those cross cloud service. It's like they, they, for years they wouldn't even say multicloud. The first time I heard it was in Boston three weeks ago, I actually heard it. So Hey, you see, >>You know, I'm gonna disagree with that. Okay. >>But, but okay, go ahead. All >>So we'll get their reaction. So my, we just heard from the last panel that the security should be leading the consortium. Yeah. Because they're, they're not the enemy they're actually, >>Maybe they should be >>Well back in the old web days, when standards were driving things, you had a common enemy, proprietary NASAs, proprietary networking stack. So the evil empire was at and T that's owned Unix. If you remember, they copyright that. >>So you think they're greasing the skids for, >>I think Supercloud, I think the hyperscalers could cuz they're driving the CapEx, they're providing the value. So in my opinion, Amazon and Azure, whoever does the right thing first can win every, maybe >>This is how Google could catch up >>It. It could be a, it could be a Slingshot move. It could, you know, boomerang, someone to the front of the line or extend. Amazon's already huge lead. So if I'm AWS, if I'm Adam Slosky and I'm talking to Andy Jassy, he says, how am I gonna differentiate myself? I'd say, I'm gonna come in and own multicloud. I'm gonna own Supercloud we are the Supercloud and you work with AWS's primitives in a way that makes services work. I would go for that. I'd be like, okay, show me more. What do you >>Think? I, I, I don't think think any one company is going to be a super cloud because I think yes, there is going to be a lot of workloads on public clouds, but there's a huge amount of workloads at the enterprise at the edge at the store. I think those will continue for various reasons, whether it's data, sovereignty regulations. So I think it's going to be a combination. Everybody's not gonna go to one, you know, cloud, it's going to be an amalgamation. >>Okay. But I I've argued that snowflake is a form of a super data cloud and a very specific use case, you know, Aviatrix is trying to be a network, you know, layer and you know, sneak in a security, let me on and on, on a lot of small you get, you get super cloud stove pipes, but, but nonetheless you're, you're still abstracting. I mean, we've this industry attractions, right? >>Well this, this concept I completely agree with, right? This idea that, so, so one of the, my is that right now enterprises buy 500 different technologies and they have to become PhDs in 500 different things. It's just never gonna happen skills issue, which is no way. Right. So what's gonna happen is all of these providers are gonna essentially become managed service providers. Cloud is in manifestation of that. Snowflake is a ation data breaks is a manifestation of that. Right? So in our general industry, there's gonna be a handful of platforms. Right. And they're gonna work across these clouds. Amazon may have one too. Right? Look, they, they, they, for the longest time sort of ignored OnPrem, but now they have something called SSA, which runs on Preem. Right. Why, why would they bother? Because, well, obviously there's a lot of money to be made in a data center as well. >>So I, my sense is they get it completely understand and appreciate that there's other things outside of Amazon. But in terms of what Bosco was talking about, my sense is, you know, these multiple platforms will come about. And to the point we were making earlier about standardization and I, I mean, is it gonna be one company or is it gonna be standards that everybody will else will adopt? There's a topic that the three of us have talked about before, which is this vCenter for Kubernetes. Right. And all due respect to kit. Right. My sense is that there there's gonna be multiple companies that are gonna start working towards a vCenter for Kubernetes. And it is right. I mean, that's how I've, I mean, I've been thinking about this before and a half years, including >>VMware. >>Yeah. And you know, and we, we should compare notes. Right. But what's gonna happen is there was a, there was a distinct advantage VMware had back in the day because ESX was their product. Right. And that was a standard right now. What's the ESX in the new it's sort of Kubernetes, right. I mean, it's on bare metal for the most part or whatever VMs. So that's a standard, that's got standardized APIs, the things around it are standardized APIs. So what is the unfair advantage that one company has other than execution? >>Nothing. Well also composability if you over rotate on Kubernetes, for example, and not take advantage of say C two, for instance. Totally, >>Totally. >>It's a mix and match. >>Yeah. But I think, I think if you get too focused on Kubernetes, it's a means to an end. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it it's a mean to end end. And I think all these tools, there's a lot of standardization happening that's gonna happen. Right. And no one vendor is gonna control that. Right. It's it's going to be, it's gonna continue. I think how you bring these together and orchestrate right. And manage the service. Because I think that if you think about the lack of skills to keep up with the operations and platforms is one of the largest inhibitors right now for enterprises to move as fast as they want to become cloud native. >>And you have the shiny new toy problem kit where people just go and grab it. You know, Keith Townsend has a, as a quote, he says, look, we essentially move at the speed of the CIO or else we're going too fast or too slow. So, so the, to, to the point about the new toy now I've got new skills. >>Yep. Well, so this has been a really good discussion. And I think so there's a couple of things, right. Going back to the, the paper that we wrote, right. How we have these different sort of layers of multi-cloud services or, or categories of multi-cloud services. And it's exactly to capture some of the ex different examples you just mentioned. And yeah, the challenge is that each of them by themselves are a little bit of an island today. Like you don't have that extra level of integration. And so what the platform teams typically do is try to add that extra glue to make the experience more seamless for the, the, the, you know, developers at that company. And so like, you know, for instance, things like identity. So the nice thing about going to a single public cloud is that there's one, usually one identity system for everything. And that's great. All the different services roles are, you know, are back all that. Stuff's all centralized, but you don't have that when you're going across many different multicloud services. So what does that look like? So I think there's some of these different crosscutting concerns that we need to look at how we standardize on as an industry. And that's, again, one of the things >>You felt that part. And I think, I think also the other key thing is yes, you can always say I'll put everything in one world, world garden and I'm done. Yeah. Okay. But that's not the reality because at some point you need, the flexibility and cost comes into play and flexibility to move comes into play. And I think that is a key factor. Yep. Right. >>Yeah. And so like, so then the question is, what degrees of freedom do you give yourself there? And I think that's the architectural question is how you, how do you design it? What sort of abstractions do you leverage? And I think that goes back to some of our discussion before, which is, do you directly go on top of a native cloud service or do you use a multi-cloud service? >>But I think it's a combination of, I don't think it's either or no, it's not, it's not an either or you have to have the ability to choose a public cloud or do it private. Yeah. At the same time you don't change. It's like a common dictionary, right. You're not gonna change every time the accent changes, you know? So that's, >>So here's a question for you guys. So what has to happen for super clouds, be existing assume that AWS and Azure and Google, aren't gonna sit still assume that maybe they normalize into some sort of swim lane or position that they have to rationalize. What, assuming they're not gonna sit still, what has to happen for super clouds to, to actually work >>Well? Well, I think, you know, really quick going back to the platform team point, I would say that the platform teams at various companies, and we got one at VMware two, they're creating a rudimentary form of a super cloud. Right. Cause they, you know, absolutely like if, if they are supporting multiple clouds, like all the things they're stitching together and all that work, that is a super cloud. The problem is that there's not really a standard approach or architecture or reusable things to enable that. I think that's really what's missing. >>Yeah. But I think the key here is standard us reusable. Because for example, we have customers who are in doesn't matter where they are, some of their loads are in public cloud. Some are in private, some are at the edge, but they're still using the same platform. Yeah. Right. So it is a standard open source based technology. So it is standard. There's no lock in for them from an infrastructure point of view. Yep. And it gives them the flexibility because certain apps, you wanna put it on the public cloud, certain apps, you do not, you need the, I mean, for example, some of the AI, I think earlier discussion that was going on about chips and AI and ML workloads. I mean, think about moving all of that to a public cloud, to, and I think a lot of machine learning and AI applications are going to happen where the data is getting created at the edge. Yeah. At the edge >>Public cloud. It's not gonna happen cloud. It's gonna be real time in, >>It's gonna the end time. And so therefore you have to decide based on your workload, what are you gonna move all the way to a public cloud? And what are you need to do to make business decisions at this spot where the data is created? >>That's a huge disruptor potentially to Supercloud. This is a whole new architecture that emerges at the edge with a whole new set of economics. I >>Think the edge is gonna be like massively disruptive. >>I think it's gonna think about, if you think about the edge, go beyond just the classic definition of edge. Think about branches in stores, retail stores. Yeah. Right. I mean, you cannot shut down retail store because you lost connectivity to the network or something you still have to serve your company >>Edge is a disruptive enabler. I think it's gonna change potentially change the position of the players in the business. Whoever embraces the edge. >>Yeah. Maybe going back to the question that you had asked before, which is what is, what is a framework for a super cloud? So you said something that is important, which is your team's burning one. Yeah. I met that team. Actually. They seem to be very sharp guys. >>They're they're mine. They're my are great. They're awesome. >>We got a deal going on here. Yeah. >>I tried. We have >>It. >>So this is the interesting part, right? So I will pause it that the super cloud of the future will be a company that owns zero servers and no network. >>Okay. >>That's gonna happen. Okay. So I just kind of it's >>Full point you >>Made before I made that point just about the public cloud, just so Mr. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that really interesting. Not >>We that, so I've thought about this a long time that in my opinion, and I've, I'm, I'm sure I've said this to you, John, that, you know, the one company that I've always believed has the best shot at doing this well is actually VMware because that's the one company that's, you know, that there's, there's no, you know, infrastructure back haul. Right. You know, that you're carrying, but, but in terms of thinking and getting there, you know, being, being a company that can do it is not the same as being the company who has done it. That's a, there's a distance, but >>I have to defend that now because hyperscalers are not gonna be able to super cloud. They're not now it's hype. See, agreed, great point. Public clouds will be part of the super cloud. Yeah, totally. But they will not, the hyperscalers are not building super clouds. Totally. They're blocking it. Right. Yeah. >>They're enabling it. >>We agree on >>No, they're enabling >>Because it's, it's not in there to their advantage. Right. Look, the, the snowflake example you gave is the pivotal example in this conversation. Yep. Right. Why does snowflake exist at all when Redshift exists and all these other things exist because they provide value that is beyond a single clouds purview. Right. And at that point, just step back from our platforms and what we sell. Forget about that for a minute. Right. It's it's about, look, I think, I think this, we are, this market is early, we're out early, right. 10 years from now, what will a company look like? That actually solves a superly problem they're gonna solve for yeah. Kubernetes, whatever. Right. But they're gonna solve for truly modern applications. >>Yeah. They're gonna refactor application that has new economics new value, right. >>At that point, this idea of edge and cloud, forget about it. Right. This is all distribution issues, right. It doesn't really matter. Is it retail or not? Yeah, absolutely. These are places, but, but the way, the right way to think about this is not about edge versus cloud, right? This is about an app. Sometimes it needs to run in one location and it's good enough. Sometimes it needs to run in 10,000 locations and, and it's a distribution issue. I've always believed there's this idea of edge versus cloud. This is BS, right? Because it, it is a cloud over a different size. Sure. But, but I'm making a slightly different point. Sure. Which is, it's a distribution problem. Right. If you step back and think about distribution, my app could run in Azure or AWS or in a retail store, in a branch or whatever. Right. >>And once that is done, the question is, how am I in, in making all this happen? There was a point made in the prior conversation, in the, in the session about a database kind of popping up in the place where I needed to run. Okay. Nobody does that today, by the way. Right. At least truly well right about that, sir, that will come. Right? Yeah. But when that comes, my application is a conglomerate of compute data. I don't know a, a service bus and network and all these things and they will all kind of pop together. That company does not exist >>Today. Well, we'll, we will be documenting which we have more time. We're gonna document it. We have to unfortunately stop this panel because it's awesome. We can go for another hour. Sure. Let's bring you guys back, but that's it. The super cloud of the future will look like something and we're gonna debate it. And speaking of snowflake, we have the co-founder here next to sit down with us to talk about what he thinks about this super cloud. He, he probably heard the comment, come back more coverage. This break with the co-founder of snowflake after the short break. >>Do thank you.

(soft music) >> Welcome back everyone, is Supercloud 22 live in the Palo Alto office. Our stage performance we're streaming virtually it's our pilot event, our inaugural event, Supercloud 22. I'm John fury, with my coach Dave Vellante. Got a featured Keynote conversation with Kit Colbert. Who's the CTO of VMware, got to delay it all out. Break it down, Kit, great to see you. Thanks for joining us for Supercloud 22 our inaugural event. >> Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. >> So we had great distinguished panels coming up through. We heard Victoria earlier to the Keynote. There's a shift happening. The shift has happened that's called cloud. You just published a white paper that kind of brings out these new challenges around the complexity of how companies want to run their business. >> Yep. >> It's not born in the cloud, it's cloud everywhere. Seems to be the theme. What's your take on Supercloud? what's the roadmap for multicloud? >> Yeah, well, the reason that we got interested in this was just talking to our customers and the reality is everybody is using multiple clouds today, multiple public clouds, they got things on-prem, they got stuff at the edge. And so their applications are essentially distributed everywhere. And the challenges they start running into there is that there's just a lot of heterogeneity there. There's like different APIs, different capabilities, inconsistencies, incompatibility, in terms of workload, placement, data, migration, security, as we just heard about, et cetera. And so I think everyone's struggling with trying to figure out how do I drive consistency across all that diversity and what sort of consistency do I want? And one of the things that became really interesting in our conversations with customers is that there is no one size fits all that different folks are in different places. And the types of consistency that they want to prioritize will be different based on their individual business requirements. And so this started forming a picture for us saying, okay, what we need are a set of capabilities of multi-cloud cross cloud services that deliver that consistency across all the different environments where applications may be running. And that is what formed the early thinking and sort of the paper that we wrote on it, as well as some of the work and that I think eventually leads to this vision of Supercloud, right? 'Cause I think you guys have the right idea, which is, hey, how does all this stuff come together? And what does that bigger picture look like? And so I think between the sort of the native services that are there individually for each cloud that offer great value by the way, and people definitely should be taking advantage of in addition to another set of services, which are multi-cloud that go across clouds and provide that consistency, looking at that together. That's my picture where super cloud is. >> So the paper's called, the era of multi-cloud services arrive, VMware executive outlook for IT, leaders and decision makers, I'm sure you can get on your website. >> Yep. >> And in there, you talked about, well, first of all, I think you would agree that multicloud has fundamentally been a symptom of multi-vendor or M&A, I mean, you talked about that in the paper, right? >> Yeah. >> It was never really a strategy. It was just like, hey, we woke up in the 2020s and here we are with multiple clouds, right? >> Yeah, it was one of those situations where most folks that we talked to didn't plan to be multi-cloud now that's changed a little bit in the past year or two. >> Sure. >> But certainly in the earlier days of cloud, people would go all in saying, hey, I'm going to go all in on one, one of the major hyperscalers and go for it there. And that's great and offers a lot of advantages, right? There is internal consistency there. There's usually pretty good integration between their services so on and so forth. The problem though that you start facing is that to your point, acquisitions, you acquire companies using a different cloud. Okay, now I got two different clouds or sometimes you have the phenomenon of shadow IT, still happening where some random line of business is going to go off and use a different cloud for whatever reason. The other thing that we've seen is that over time that you may have standardized on one, but then over time technology changes, another cloud makes major advancements in the state of the art, or let's say in machine learning and you say, hey, I want to go to this other cloud for that. So what we start to see is that people now are choosing public clouds based on best of breed service capabilities, and that they're going to make those decisions that fairly fine grained manner, right? Sometimes down to the team, the line of business, et cetera. And so this is where customers and companies find themselves. Now it's like, oh boy, now have all these clouds. And what's happened is that they kind of dealt with it in an ad hoc manner. They would spin up individual operations teams, security teams, et cetera, that specialized in each of the clouds. They had knowledge about how to do that. But now people found that, okay, I'm duplicating all this. There's not really consistency in my approach here. Is there a better way? And I think this is, again, the advent of a lot of the thinking of multi-cloud services and Supercloud. >> And I think one of the things too, in listening to you talk is that the old model used to be, solve complexity with more complexity. Okay, and customers don't want that from what we're observing. And what you're saying is they've seen the benefits of DevOps, DevSecOps. So they know the value. >> Yep. >> 'Cause they've been on, say one native cloud. Now they say, okay, I'm on premise and we heard from Victoria said, there's a lot of private cloud going on, but essentially makes that another cloud, out by default as well. So hybrid is multicloud. >> Hybrid is a subset, yeah. Hybrid is like, we kind of had this evolution of thinking, right? Where you kind of had all the sort of different locations. And then I think hybrid was attempt to say, okay, let's try to connect one location or a set of locations on premises with a public cloud and have some level of consistency there. But really what we look at here with multicloud or Supercloud is that that's really a generalization of that. And we're not talking about one or two locations on prem in one cloud. We're talking about everything now. And moreover, I think hybrid cloud tended to focus a lot on sort of core infrastructure and management. This looks across the board, we're talking about security, we're talking about application development, talking about end user experience. Things like Zero Trust. We're talking about infrastructure, data. So it goes much, much broader, I think than when we talked about hybrid cloud a few years ago. >> So in your paper you've essentially, Kit, laid out an early framework. >> Yep. >> Let's call it for what we call Supercloud, what you call cross cloud services. So what do you see as the technical enablers that are, the salient aspects of again multi-cloud or Supercloud? >> Yep. Well, so for me it comes down to, so, okay, taking a step back. So we have this problem, right? Where you have a lot of diversity across different clouds and customers are looking for some levels of consistency. But as I said, rarely do I see two customers that want exactly the same types of consistency. And so what we're trying to do is step back. And first of all, establish a taxonomy and by that I mean, one of the different types of consistency that you might want. And so there's things around infrastructure consistency, security consistency, software supply chain security is probably the top of mind one that I hear from customers. Application and application services of things like databases, messaging streaming services, AIML services, et cetera, and user capabilities and then of course, data as well. And so in the paper we say, okay, here's these kind of five areas of consistency. And that's the first piece, the second one then turns more to an architectural question of what exactly is a multi-cloud service. What does that mean for a cloud service to be multi-cloud and what are the properties there? So essentially we said, okay, we see three different types of those. There's one where that service could run on a single cloud, but could support multiple clouds. So think about for instance, a service that does cost analysis. Now it may have maybe executing on AWS let's say, but it could do cost analysis for Azure or Google or AWS or anybody, right? So that's the first type. The second type is a bit more advanced where now you're saying, I can actually instantiate that same service into multiple clouds. And we see that oftentimes with things like databases that have a lot of performance latency, et cetera, requirements, and that you can't be accessing that database remotely, that doesn't, from a different cloud, that's going to be too slow. You have it on the same cloud that you're in. And so again, you see various vendors out there, implementing that, where that database can be instantiated wherever you'd like. And then the third one would be going even further. And this is where we really get into some of the much more difficult use cases where customers want a workload to be on prem. And sometimes, especially for those that are very regulatory compliant, they may need even in an air gap or disconnected environment. So there, can you take that same service, but now run it without your operators, being able to manage it 24/7. So those are the three categories. So are a single cloud supporting, single cloud instance supporting multiple clouds, multi-cloud instance, multi-cloud instance disconnected. >> So you're abstracting you as the the R&D arm you're abstracting that complexity. How do you handle this problem where you've got one cloud maybe has a better service than the other clouds? Do you have to devolve to the lowest common denominator or? How do you mask that? >> Well, so that's a really good question and we've debated it and there's been a lot of thought on it. Our current point of view is that we really want to leave it, up to the company themselves to make that decision. Again, cause we see different use cases. So for instance, I talk to customers in the defense sector and they are like, hey, if a foreign adversary is attacking one of these public cloud that we're in, we got to be able to evacuate our applications from there, sometimes in minutes, right? In order to maintain our operational capabilities. And so there, there does need to be at least common denominator approach just because of that requirement. I see other folks, you look at the financial banking industries they're also regulated. I think for them, it's oftentimes 90 days to get out of the cloud, so they can do a little bit of re-architecture. You got times rolled the sleeves and change some things. So maybe it's not quite as strict. Whereas other companies say, you know what? I want to take advantage of these best of breed services native to the clouds. So we don't try to prescribe a certain approach there, but we say, you got to align it with what your business requirements are. >> How about the APIs layer? So one of the things we've said is that we felt like a super pass was a requirement of the Supercloud because it's a purpose built pass that helps you with that objective, whatever that is. And you say in the paper for developers each cloud provider has unique infrastructure interfaces and APIs that add work and slow the pace of their releases for operators. Each additional cloud increases the complexity of their architecture, fragmenting security, performance optimization and cost management. So are you building a super pass? What's your philosophy? Victoria said, we want to have our cake, we want to eat at two and we want to lose weight. So how do you do that? >> Yeah, so I think it's, so first things first, what the paper is trying to present in the end is really sort of an architectural point of view on how to approach this, right? And then, yeah, we at VMware, we've got a lot of solutions, towards some of those things, but we also realize we can't do everything ourselves, right? The space is too large. So it's very much a partner strategy there. Now that being said, on things like on the past side, we are doing a lot for instance around Tanzu, which is our modern apps portfolio products. And the focus there really is to, yes, provide some of that consistency across different clouds, enabling customers to take advantage of either cross cloud paths type services or cloud native or native cloud services, I should say. And so we really give customers that choice. And I think that's for us where it's at, because again, we don't see it as a one size fits for all. >> So there's your cake at edit to too. So you're saying the developer experience can be identical across clouds. >> Yep. >> Unless the developers don't want it to be. >> Yeah, and maybe the team makes that decision. Look there's a lot of reasons why you may want to make that or may not. The reality is that these native cloud services do add a lot of value and oftentimes are very easy to consume, to get started with, to get going. And so trade off you got to think about, and I don't think there's a right answer. >> So Kit, I got to ask on you. You said you can't do it alone. >> Yeah. >> VMware, I know for a fact, you guys have been working on this for many, many years. >> Yep. >> (indistinct) remember, I interviewed him in 2016 when he did the deal with AWS with Andy Jassy that really moved the needle. Things got really great from there with VMware. So would you be open to a consortium to oversee cause you guys have a lot of investment in this as a company, but I also don't hear you trying to do the lock in thing. So yeah, would you guys be open to a consortium to kind of try to figure out what these buildings blocks look like? Or is it a bag of Legos what people want? >> Absolutely, and you know what we offer in the paper is really just a starting point. It's pretty simple, we're trying to define a few basic of the taxonomy and some outlines sketches if you will, of what that architectural picture might look like. But it's very much that like just a starting point, and this is not something we can do alone. This is something that we really need the entire industry to rally around. Cause again, I think what's important here are standards. >> Yeah. >> That there's got to be, this sort of decomposition of functionality, breakdown in the different, sort of logical layers of functionality. What do those APIs or interfaces look like? How do we ensure interoperability? Because we do want people to be able to get the best of breed, to be able to bring together different vendor solutions to enable that. >> And I was watching, it was had a Silicon a day just last week, talking about their advances in Silicon. What's you guys position on that because you're seeing the (indistinct) as players, almost getting more niche and more better at the hardware matters more, Silicon speed, latency GPUs, So that seems to me be an enabler opportunity for the ecosystem to innovate at the past and SAS relationship. Where do you guys see? Where are you guys strong and where do you need work to do on? If you had to say there was some white space at VMware like say, hey, we own this area. We we're solid here. Here's some white spaces that VMware could use some help with. >> Yeah, well I think the infrastructure space, you just mentioned is clearly one that we've been focused on for a long time. We're expanding into the modern app space, expanding into security. We've been strong and end user for a while. So a lot of the different multi-cloud capabilities we've actually been to your point developing for a while. And I think that's exactly, again, what went into this like what we started noticing was all of our different product teams were reacting to the same thing and we weren't necessarily talking about it together yet. >> Like what? >> Well, this whole challenge of multiple clouds of dealing with that heterogeneity of wanting choice and flexibility into where to place a workload or where to place a virtual desktop or whatever it might be. And so each of the teams was responding individually to that customer feedback. And so I think what we recognized was like, hey, let's up level this, and what's the bigger picture. And what's the sort of common architecture across all of it, right? So I think that's what the really interesting aspect here was is that this is very much driven by what we're hearing directly from customers. >> You kind of implied just recently that the paper was pretty straightforward, pretty basic, early days, but it's well thought out. And one of the things you talked about was the type of multi-cloud services. >> Yep. >> You had data plan and user services, security infrastructure, which is your wheelhouse and application services. >> Yep. >> And you sort of went to detail defining those where is management and all that. So these are the ones you're going after. What about management? What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, so it's a really good question we debated this for a long time. Does management actually get a separate sort of layer that we could add a six one perhaps, or is it sort of baked in to the different ones? And we kind of went with the ladder where it sort of baked in there's infrastructure management, there's modern app management, there's management and users. It's kind of management for each security obviously. So we see a lot of different management plans, control plans across each of those different layers. Now does there need to be a separate one that has its own layer? Arguably yes, I mean, I think there are good arguments for that, and this is exactly why we put this out there though, is to like get people to read it, people to give give us feedback. And going back to the consortium idea, let's come together as a group of practitioners across the industry to really figure out an industry viewpoint on this. >> So what are the trade offs there? So what would be the benefit of having that separate layer? I presume it's simpler to do it the way you've done it, but what would be the benefit of having a separate. >> Yeah, I think it was probably more about simplicity to start with, like you could imagine like 20 different layers. and maybe that's where it's going to go, but also I think it's how do you define the layer? And for us it was more around sort of some of these functional aspects as an infrastructure versus application level versus end user and management is more of a commonality across those. But again, I could see our arguments be made. >> Logical place to start. >> Yeah. >> The other thing you said in here multi-cloud application services can route request for a particular service such as a database and deploy the service on the correct individual cloud, using the most appropriate technology for the use case, et cetera, et cetera. >> Yep. >> That to me, sounds like a metadata problem. And so can you talk about how you you've approach that? You mentioned AWS RDS, great examples as your sequel on Oracle Database, et cetera, et cetera and multiple endpoint. How do you approach that? >> Yeah, well, I think there's a bunch of different approaches there. And so again, so the idea is that, and I know there's been reference to sort of like the operating system for Supercloud. What does that look like, right? But I think it totally, we don't actually use that term, but I do like the concept of an operating system. 'Cause a lot of things you just talk about there, these are things operating systems. Do you got to have a scheduler? And so you look across many different clouds and you got to figure out, okay, where do I actually want in this case, let's say a database instance to go and be provisioned. And then really it's up to, I think the vendor or in this case, the multi-cloud service creator to define how they want to want to do that. They could leverage the native cloud services or they could build their own technology. Which a lot of the vendors are doing. And so the point though, is that really you get this night from a end user standpoint, it goes back to your complexity, simplicity question, you get the simplicity of a single API that the implementation you don't really need to deal with. 'Cause you're like, I'm getting a service and I need the database and has certain properties and I want it here versus there versus wherever. But it's up to that multi-cloud service to figure out a lot of those implementation specifics. >> So are you the Supercloud OS? >> I think it is VMware's goal to become the Supercloud OS for sure. But like any good operating system, as we said, like it's all about applications, right? So you have a platform point of view, but you got to partner widely. >> And you got to get the hardware relationship. >> Yes. >> The Silicon chips. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Yeah, and actually that was a good point. I want to go back to that one. 'Cause you mentioned that earlier, the innovation that we're seeing, things like arm processors and like graviton and a lot of these things happening. And so I think that's another really interesting area where you're seeing tremendous innovation there in the public cloud. One of the challenges though for public cloud is actually at scale and that it takes longer to release newer hardware at that scale. So in some cases, if you want bleeding edge stuff, you can't go with public cloud 'cause it's just not there yet, right? So that's again, another interesting thing where you... >> Well, some will say that they launch 5,000 new services, every year at AWS. >> No, but I'm talking, >> They have some bleeding edge stuff. >> Well, no, no, no, sorry, sorry, let me clarify, let me clarify. I'm not talking about the software, I'm talking about the hardware side. >> Okay, got it, okay. >> Like the Silicon? >> Yeah, like the latest and greatest GPU, FBGA. >> Why can't they? >> 'Cause cause they do like tens of thousands of them, hundreds of thousands of them. >> Oh just because it's just so many. >> It's a scale. Yeah, that's the point, right? >> Right. >> And it's fundamental to the model in terms of how big they are. And so that's why we do see some customers who need, who have very specialized hardware requirements, need to do it in the private cloud, right on prem or possibly a colo. >> Or edge. >> Or edge. >> Edge is a great example of... >> But we often see, again, people like the latest bleeding edge GPUs, whatever they are, even something a bit more experimental that they're going to go on on prem for that. >> Yeah. >> And so look, do not want to disparage the public cloud, please don't take that away. It's just an artifact when it gets to heart, like software they can scale and they do (indistinct). >> Well it's context of the OS conversation, OS has to right to hardware and enable applications. >> Where I was getting caught up in that is Kit, is they're all developing their own Silicon and they're developing it, most of it's arm based and they're developing at a much, much faster cycle. They can go from design to tape out much faster than Intel historically has. And you're seeing it. >> Intel just posted along. >> Yeah, I think if you look at the overall system, you're absolutely right. >> Yeah, but it's the deployment because of the scale 'cause at one availability zone and another and another region and that's. >> Well, yeah, but so counter point to what I just said would be, hey, like they have very well controlled environments, very well controled system. So they don't need to support a million different configuration settings or whatever they've got theirs that they use, right? So from a system standpoint and so forth. Yeah, I agree that there's a lot they can do there. I was speaking specifically, to different types of hardware accelerators being a bit of a (indistinct). >> If it's not in the 5,000 services that they offer, you can't get it, whereas on-prem you can say, I want that, here it is. >> I'm not saying that on-prem is necessarily fundamentally better in any way. I'm just saying for this particular area >> It's use case driven. >> It is use, and that's the whole point of all this, right? Like and I know a lot of people in their heads associate VMware with on-prem, but we are not dogmatic at all. And you know, as you guys know, but many people may not like we partner with all the public cloud hyperscalers. And so our point of view is very much, much more nuance saying, look, we're happy to run workloads wherever you want to. In fact, that's what we hear from customers. They want to run them everywhere, but it's about finding the right tool for the right job. And that's what really what this multi-cloud approach. >> Yeah, and I think the structural change of the virtualization hypervisor this new shift to V2 Supercloud, this something happening fundamentally that's use case driven, it's not about dogma, whatever. I mean, cloud's great. But native clouds have the pros and cons. >> And I would say that Supercloud, prerequisite for Supercloud has got to be running in a public cloud. But I'd say it also has to be inclusive of on-prem data. >> Yes, absolutely. >> And you're not going to just move all that data into prem, maybe in the fullness of time, but I don't personally believe that, but you look at what Goldman Sachs has done with AWS they've got their on-prem data and they're connecting to the AWS cloud. >> Yep. >> What Walmart's doing with Azure and that's going to happen in a lot of different industries. >> Yeah. >> Well I think security will drive that too. We had that conversation because no one wants to increase the surface area. Number one, they want complexity to be reduced and they want economic benefits. That's the super cloud kind of (indistinct). >> It's a security but it's also differentiatable advantage that you actually have on prem that you don't necessarily. >> Right, well, we're going to debate this now, Kit, thank you for coming on and giving that Keynote, we're going to have a panel to debate and discuss the blockers that enablers to Supercloud. And there are some enablers and potentially blockers. >> Yep, absolutely. >> So we'll get, into that, okay, up next, the panel to discuss, blockers and enablers are Supercloud after this quick break. (soft music)

(bright music) >> "Supermetafragilisticexpialadotious." What's in a name? In an homage to the inimitable Charles Fitzgerald, we've chosen this title for today's session because of all the buzz surrounding "supercloud," a term that we introduced last year to signify a major architectural trend and shift that's occurring in the technology industry. Since that time, we've published numerous videos and articles on the topic, and on August 9th, kicked off "Supercloud22," an open industry event designed to advance the supercloud conversation, gathering input from more than 30 experienced technologists and business leaders in "The Cube" and broader technology community. We're talking about individuals like Benoit Dageville, Kit Colbert, Ali Ghodsi, Mohit Aron, David McJannet, and dozens of other experts. And today, we're pleased to welcome David Linthicum, who's a Chief Strategy Officer of Cloud Services at Deloitte Consulting. David is a technology visionary, a technical CTO. He's an author and a frequently sought after keynote speaker at high profile conferences like "VMware Explore" next week. David Linthicum, welcome back to "The Cube." Good to see you again. >> Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you're very welcome. Okay, so this topic of supercloud, what you call metacloud, has created a lot of interest. VMware calls it cross-cloud services, Snowflake calls it their data cloud, there's a lot of different names, but recently, you published a piece in "InfoWorld" where you said the following. "I really don't care what we call it, "and I really don't care if I put "my own buzzword into the mix. "However, this does not change the fact "that metacloud is perhaps the most important "architectural evolution occurring right now, "and we need to get this right out of the gate. "If we do that, who cares what it's named?" So very cool. And you also mentioned in a recent article that you don't like to put out new terms out in the wild without defining them. So what is a metacloud, or what we call supercloud? What's your definition? >> Yeah, and again, I don't care what people call it. The reality is it's the ability to have a layer of cross-cloud services. It sits above existing public cloud providers. So the idea here is that instead of building different security systems, different governance systems, different operational systems in each specific cloud provider, using whatever native features they provide, we're trying to do that in a cross-cloud way. So in other words, we're pushing out data integration, security, all these other things that we have to take care of as part of deploying a particular cloud provider. And in a multicloud scenario, we're building those in and between the clouds. And so we've been tracking this for about five years. We understood that multicloud is not necessarily about the particular public cloud providers, it's about things that you build in and between the clouds. >> Got it, okay. So I want to come back to that, to the definition, but I want to tie us to the so-called multicloud. You guys did a survey recently. We've said that multicloud was mostly a symptom of multi-vendor, Shadow Cloud, M&A, and only recently has become a strategic imperative. Now, Deloitte published a survey recently entitled "Closing the Cloud Strategy, Technology, Innovation Gap," and I'd like to explore that a little bit. And so in that survey, you showed data. What I liked about it is you went beyond what we all know, right? The old, "Our research shows that on average, "X number of clouds are used at an individual company." I mean, you had that too, but you really went deeper. You identified why companies are using multiple clouds, and you developed different categories of practitioners across 500 survey respondents. But the reasons were very clear for "why multicloud," as this becomes more strategic. Service choice scale, negotiating leverage, improved business resiliency, minimizing lock-in, interoperability of data, et cetera. So my question to you, David, is what's the problem supercloud or metacloud solves, and what's different from multicloud? >> That's a great question. The reality is that if we're... Well, supercloud or metacloud, whatever, is really something that exists above a multicloud, but I kind of view them as the same thing. It's an architectural pattern. We can name it anything. But the reality is that if we're moving to these multicloud environments, we're doing so to leverage best of breed things. In other words, best of breed technology to provide the innovators within the company to take the business to the next level, and we determine that in the survey. And so if we're looking at what a multicloud provides, it's the ability to provide different choices of different services or piece parts that allows us to build anything that we need to do. And so what we found in the survey and what we found in just practice in dealing with our clients is that ultimately, the value of cloud computing is going to be the innovation aspects. In other words, the ability to take the company to the next level from being more innovative and more disruptive in the marketplace that they're in. And the only way to do that, instead of basically leveraging the services of a particular walled garden of a single public cloud provider, is to cast a wider net and get out and leverage all kinds of services to make these happen. So if you think about that, that's basically how multicloud has evolved. In other words, it wasn't planned. They didn't say, "We're going to go do a multicloud." It was different developers and innovators in the company that went off and leveraged these cloud services, sometimes with the consent of IT leadership, sometimes not. And now we have these multitudes of different services that we're leveraging. And so many of these enterprises are going from 1000 to, say, 3000 services under management. That creates a complexity problem. We have a problem of heterogeneity, different platforms, different tools, different services, different AI technology, database technology, things like that. So the metacloud, or the supercloud, or whatever you want to call it, is the ability to deal with that complexity on the complexity's terms. And so instead of building all these various things that we have to do individually in each of the cloud providers, we're trying to do so within a cross-cloud service layer. We're trying to create this layer of technology, which removes us from dealing with the complexity of the underlying multicloud services and makes it manageable. Because right now, I think we're getting to a point of complexity we just can't operate it at the budgetary limits that we are right now. We can't keep the number of skills around, the number of operators around, to keep these things going. We're going to have to get creative in terms of how we manage these things, how we manage a multicloud. And that's where the supercloud, metacloud, whatever they want to call it, comes that. >> Yeah, and as John Furrier likes to say, in IT, we tend to solve complexity with more complexity, and that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about simplifying, and you talked about the abstraction layer, and then it sounds like I'm inferring more. There's value that's added on top of that. And then you also said the hyperscalers are in a walled garden. So I've been asked, why aren't the hyperscalers superclouds? And I've said, essentially, they want to put your data into their cloud and keep it there. Now, that doesn't mean they won't eventually get into that. We've seen examples a little bit, Outposts, Anthos, Azure Arc, but the hyperscalers really aren't building superclouds or metaclouds, at least today, are they? >> No, they're not. And I always have the predictions for every major cloud conference that this is the conference that the hyperscaler is going to figure out some sort of a multicloud across-cloud strategy. In other words, building services that are able to operate across clouds. That really has never happened. It has happened in dribs and drabs, and you just mentioned a few examples of that, but the ability to own the space, to understand that we're not going to be the center of the universe in how people are going to leverage it, is going to be multiple things, including legacy systems and other cloud providers, and even industry clouds that are emerging these days, and SaaS providers, and all these things. So we're going to assist you in dealing with complexity, and we're going to provide the core services of being there. That hasn't happened yet. And they may be worried about conflicting their market, and the messaging is a bit different, even actively pushing back on the concept of multicloud, but the reality is the market's going to take them there. So in other words, if enough of their customers are asking for this and asking that they take the lead in building these cross-cloud technologies, even if they're participating in the stack and not being the stack, it's too compelling of a market that it's not going to drag a lot of the existing public cloud providers there. >> Well, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, David, because I never say never when it comes to a company like AWS, and we've seen how fast they move. And at the same time, they don't want to be commoditized. There's the layer underneath all this infrastructure, and they got this ecosystem that's adding all this tremendous value. But I want to ask you, what are the essential elements of supercloud, coming back to the definition, if you will, and what's different about metacloud, as you call it, from plain old SaaS or PaaS? What are the key elements there? >> Well, the key elements would be holistic management of all of the IT infrastructure. So even though it's sitting above a multicloud, I view metacloud, supercloud as the ability to also manage your existing legacy systems, your existing security stack, your existing network operations, basically everything that exists under the purview of IT. If you think about it, we're moving our infrastructure into the clouds, and we're probably going to hit a saturation point of about 70%. And really, if the supercloud, metacloud, which is going to be expensive to build for most of the enterprises, it needs to support these things holistically. So it needs to have all the services, that is going to be shareable across the different providers, and also existing legacy systems, and also edge computing, and IoT, and all these very diverse systems that we're building there right now. So if complexity is a core challenge to operate these things at scale and the ability to secure these things at scale, we have to have commonality in terms of security architecture and technology, commonality in terms of our directory services, commonality in terms of network operations, commonality in term of cloud operations, commonality in terms of FinOps. All these things should exist in some holistic cross-cloud layer that sits above all this complexity. And you pointed out something very profound. In other words, that is going to mean that we're hiding a lot of the existing cloud providers in terms of their interfaces and dashboards and things like that that we're dealing with today, their APIs. But the reality is that if we're able to manage these things at scale, the public cloud providers are going to benefit greatly from that. They're going to sell more services because people are going to find they're able to leverage them easier. And so in other words, if we're removing the complexity wall, which many in the industry are calling it right now, then suddenly we're moving from, say, the 25 to 30% migrated in the cloud, which most enterprises are today, to 50, 60, 70%. And we're able to do this at scale, and we're doing it at scale because we're providing some architectural optimization through the supercloud, metacloud layer. >> Okay, thanks for that. David, I just want to tap your CTO brain for a minute. At "Supercloud22," we came up with these three deployment models. Kit Colbert put forth the idea that one model would be your control planes running in one cloud, let's say AWS, but it interacts with and can manage and deploy on other clouds, the Kubernetes Cluster Management System. The second one, Mohit Aron from Cohesity laid out, where you instantiate the stack on different clouds and different cloud regions, and then you create a layer, a common interface across those. And then Snowflake was the third deployment model where it's a single global instance, it's one instantiation, and basically building out their own cloud across these regions. Help us parse through that. Do those seem like reasonable deployment models to you? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean, that's a distributed computing trick we've been doing, which is, in essence, an agent of the supercloud that's carrying out some of the cloud native functions on that particular cloud, but is, in essence, a slave to the metacloud, or the supercloud, whatever, that's able to run across the various cloud providers. In other words, when it wants to access a service, it may not go directly to that service. It goes directly to the control plane, and that control plane is responsible... Very much like Kubernetes and Docker works, that control plane is responsible for reaching out and leveraging those native services. I think that that's thinking that's a step in the right direction. I think these things unto themselves, at least initially, are going to be a very complex array of technology. Even though we're trying to remove complexity, the supercloud unto itself, in terms of the ability to build this thing that's able to operate at scale across-cloud, is going to be a collection of many different technologies that are interfacing with the public cloud providers in different ways. And so we can start putting these meta architectures together, and I certainly have written and spoke about this for years, but initially, this is going to be something that may escape the detail or the holistic nature of these meta architectures that people are floating around right now. >> Yeah, so I want to stay on this, because anytime I get a CTO brain, I like to... I'm not an engineer, but I've been around a long time, so I know a lot of buzzwords and have absorbed a lot over the years, but so you take those, the second two models, the Mohit instantiate on each cloud and each cloud region versus the Snowflake approach. I asked Benoit Dageville, "Does that mean if I'm in "an AWS east region and I want to do a query on Azure West, "I can do that without moving data?" And he said, "Yes and no." And the answer was really, "No, we actually take a subset of that data," so there's the latency problem. From those deployment model standpoints, what are the trade-offs that you see in terms of instantiating the stack on each individual cloud versus that single instance? Is there a benefit of the single instance for governance and security and simplicity, but a trade-off on latency, or am I overthinking this? >> Yeah, you hit it on the nose. The reality is that the trade-off is going to be latency and performance. If we get wiggy with the distributed nature, like the distributed data example you just provided, we have to basically separate the queries and communicate with the databases on each instance, and then reassemble the result set that goes back to the people who are recording it. And so we can do caching systems and things like that. But the reality is, if it's distributed system, we're going to have latency and bandwidth issues that are going to be limiting us. And also security issues, because if we're removing lots of information over the open internet, or even private circuits, that those are going to be attack vectors that hackers can leverage. You have to keep that in mind. We're trying to reduce those attack vectors. So it would be, in many instances, and I think we have to think about this, that we're going to keep the data in the same physical region for just that. So in other words, it's going to provide the best performance and also the most simplistic access to dealing with security. And so we're not, in essence, thinking about where the data's going, how it's moving across things, things like that. So the challenge is going to be is when you're dealing with a supercloud or metacloud is, when do you make those decisions? And I think, in many instances, even though we're leveraging multiple databases across multiple regions and multiple public cloud providers, and that's the idea of it, we're still going to localize the data for performance reasons. I mean, I just wrote a blog in "InfoWorld" a couple of months ago and talked about, people who are trying to distribute data across different public cloud providers for different reasons, distribute an application development system, things like that, you can do it. With enough time and money, you can do anything. I think the challenge is going to be operating that thing, and also providing a viable business return based on the application. And so why it may look like a good science experiment, and it's cool unto itself as an architect, the reality is the more pragmatic approach is going to be a leavitt in a single region on a single cloud. >> Very interesting. The other reason I like to talk to companies like Deloitte and experienced people like you is 'cause I can get... You're agnostic, right? I mean, you're technology agnostic, vendor agnostic. So I want to come back with another question, which is, how do you deal with what I call the lowest common denominator problem? What I mean by that is if one cloud has, let's say, a superior service... Let's take an example of Nitro and Graviton. AWS seems to be ahead on that, but let's say some other cloud isn't quite quite there yet, and you're building a supercloud or a metacloud. How do you rationalize that? Does it have to be like a caravan in the army where you slow down so all the slowest trucks can keep up, or are the ways to adjudicate that that are advantageous to hide that deficiency? >> Yeah, and that's a great thing about leveraging a supercloud or a metacloud is we're putting that management in a single layer. So as far as a user or even a developer on those systems, they shouldn't worry about the performance that may come back, because we're dealing with the... You hit the nail on the head with that one. The slowest component is the one that dictates performance. And so we have to have some sort of a performance management layer. We're also making dynamic decisions to move data, to move processing, from one server to the other to try to minimize the amount of latency that's coming from a single component. So the great thing about that is we're putting that volatility into a single domain, and it's making architectural decisions in terms of where something will run and where it's getting its data from, things are stored, things like that, based on the performance feedback that's coming back from the various cloud services that are under management. And so if you're running across clouds, it becomes even more interesting, because ultimately, you're going to make some architectural choices on the fly in terms of where that stuff runs based on the active dynamic performance that that public cloud provider is providing. So in other words, we may find that it automatically shut down a database service, say MySQL, on one cloud instance, and moved it to a MySQL instance on another public cloud provider because there was some sort of a performance issue that it couldn't work around. And by the way, it does so dynamically. Away from you making that decision, it's making that decision on your behalf. Again, this is a matter of abstraction, removing complexity, and dealing with complexity through abstraction and automation, and this is... That would be an example of fixing something with automation, self-healing. >> When you meet with some of the public cloud providers and they talk about on-prem private cloud, the general narrative from the hyperscalers is, "Well, that's not a cloud." Should on-prem be inclusive of supercloud, metacloud? >> Absolutely, I mean, and they're selling private cloud instances with the edge cloud that they're selling. The reality is that we're going to have to keep a certain amount of our infrastructure, including private clouds, on premise. It's something that's shrinking as a market share, and it's going to be tougher and tougher to justify as the public cloud providers become better and better at what they do, but we certainly have edge clouds now, and hyperscalers have examples of that where they run a instance of their public cloud infrastructure on premise on physical hardware and software. And the reality is, too, we have data centers and we have systems that just won't go away for another 20 or 30 years. They're just too sticky. They're uneconomically viable to move into the cloud. That's the core thing. It's not that we can't do it. The fact of the matter is we shouldn't do it, because there's not going to be an economic... There's not going to be an economic incentive of making that happen. So if we're going to create this meta layer or this infrastructure which is going to run across clouds, and everybody agrees on, that's what the supercloud is, we have to include the on-premise systems, including private clouds, including legacy systems. And by the way, include the rising number of IoT systems that are out there, and edge-based systems out there. So we're managing it using the same infrastructure into cloud services. So they have metadata systems and they have specialized services, and service finance and retail and things like doing risk analytics. So it gets them further down that path, but not necessarily giving them a SaaS application where they're forced into all of the business processes. We're giving you piece parts. So we'll give you 1000 different parts that are related to the finance industry. You can assemble anything you need, but the thing is, it's not going to be like building it from scratch. We're going to give you risk analytics, we're giving you the financial analytics, all these things that you can leverage within your applications how you want to leverage them. We'll maintain them. So in other words, you don't have to maintain 'em just like a cloud service. And suddenly, we can build applications in a couple of weeks that used to take a couple of months, in some cases, a couple of years. So that seems to be a large take of it moving forward. So get it up in the supercloud. Those become just other services that are under managed... That are under management on the supercloud, the metacloud. So we're able to take those services, abstract them, assemble them, use them in different applications. And the ability to manage where those services are originated versus where they're consumed is going to be managed by the supercloud layer, which, you're dealing with the governance, the service governance, the security systems, the directory systems, identity access management, things like that. They're going to get you further along down the pike, and that comes back as real value. If I'm able to build something in two weeks that used to take me two months, and I'm able to give my creators in the organization the ability to move faster, that's a real advantage. And suddenly, we are going to be valued by our digital footprint, our ability to do things in a creative and innovative way. And so organizations are able to move that fast, leveraging cloud computing for what it should be leveraged, as a true force multiplier for the business. They're going to win the game. They're going to get the most value. They're going to be around in 20 years, the others won't. >> David Linthicum, always love talking. You have a dangerous combination of business and technology expertise. Let's tease. "VMware Explore" next week, you're giving a keynote, if they're going to be there. Which day are you? >> Tuesday. Tuesday, 11 o'clock. >> All right, that's a big day. Tuesday, 11 o'clock. And David, please do stop by "The Cube." We're in Moscone West. Love to get you on and continue this conversation. I got 100 more questions for you. Really appreciate your time. >> I always love talking to people at "The Cube." Thank you very much. >> All right, and thanks for watching our ongoing coverage of "Supercloud22" on "The Cube," your leader in enterprise tech and emerging tech coverage. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone to CUBE Supercloud 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great influencer, Cloud Cloud RRT segment with Sarbjeet Johal, Cloud influencer, Cloud economist, Cloud consultant, Cloud advisor. Sarbjeet, welcome back, CUBE alumni. Good to see you. >> Thanks John and nice to be here. >> Now, what's your title? Cloud consultant? Analyst? >> Consultant, actually. Yeah, I'm launching my own business right now formally, soon. It's in stealth mode right now, we'll be (inaudible) >> Well, I'll just call you a Cloud guru, Cloud influencer. You've been great, friend of theCUBE. Really powerful on social. You share a lot of content. You're digging into all the trends. Supercloud is a thing, it's getting a lot of traction. We introduced that concept last reinvent. We were riffing before that. As we kind of were seeing the structural change that is now Supercloud, it really is kind of the destination or outcome of what we're seeing with hybrid cloud as a steady state into the what's now, they call multicloud, which is kind of awkward. It feels like it's default. Like multicloud, multi-vendor, but Supercloud has much more of a comprehensive abstraction around it. What's your thoughts? >> As you said, as Dave says that too, the Supercloud has that abstraction built into it. It's built on top of cloud, right? So it's being built on top of the CapEx which is being spent by likes of AWS and Azure and Google Cloud, and many others, right? So it's leveraging that infrastructure and building software stack on top of that, which is a platform. I see that as a platform being built on top of infrastructure as code. It's another platform which is not native to the cloud providers. So it's like a kind of cross-Cloud platform. That's what I said. >> Yeah, VMware calls it that cloud-cross cloud. I'm not a big fan of the name but I get what you're saying. We had a segment on earlier with Adrian Cockcroft, Laurie McVety and Chris Wolf, all part of the Cloud RRT like ourselves, and you've involved in Cloud from day one. Remember the OpenStack days Early Cloud, AWS, when they started we saw the trajectory and we saw the change. And I think the OpenStack in those early days were tell signs because you saw the movement of API first but Amazon just grew so fast. And then Azure now is catching up, their CapEx is so large that companies like Snowflake's like, "Why should I build my own? "I just sit on top of AWS, "move fast on one native cloud, then figure it out." Seems to be one of the playbooks of the Supercloud. >> Yeah, that is true. And there are reasons behind that. And I think number one reason is the skills gravity. What I call it, the developers and/or operators are trained on one set of APIs. And I've said that many times, to out compete your competition you have to out educate the market. And we know which cloud has done that. We know what traditional vendor has done that, in '90s it was Microsoft, they had VBS number one language and they were winning. So in the cloud era, it's AWS, their marketing efforts, their go-to market strategy, the micro nature of the releasing the micro sort of features, if you will, almost every week there's a new feature. So they have got it. And other two are trying to mimic that and they're having low trouble light. >> Yeah and I think GCP has been struggling compared to the three and native cloud on native as you're right, completely successful. As you're caught up and you see the Microsoft, I think is a a great selling point around multiple clouds. And the question that's on the table here is do you stay with the native cloud or you jump right to multicloud? Now multicloud by default is kind of what I see happening. We've been debating this, I'd love to get your thoughts because, Microsoft has a huge install base. They've converted to Office 365. They even throw SQL databases in there to kind of give it a little extra bump on the earnings but I've been super critical on their numbers. I think their shares are, there's clearly overstating their share, in my opinion, compared to AWS is a need of cloud, Azure though is catching up. So you have customers that are happy with Microsoft, that are going to run their apps on Azure. So if a customer has Azure and Microsoft that's technically multiple clouds. >> Yeah, true. >> And it's not a strategy, it's just an outcome. >> Yeah, I see Microsoft cloud as friendly to the internal developers. Internal developers of enterprises. but AWS is a lot more ISV friendly which is the software shops friendly. So that's what they do. They just build software and give it to somebody else. But if you're in-house developer and you have been a Microsoft shop for a long time, which enterprise haven't been that, right? So Microsoft is well entrenched into the enterprise. We know that, right? >> Yeah. >> For a long time. >> Yeah and the old joke was developers love code and just go with a lock in and then ops people don't want lock in because they want choice. So you have the DevOps movement that's been successful and they get DevSecOps. The real focus to me, I think, is the operating teams because the ops side is really with the pressure vis-a-vis. I want to get your reaction because we're seeing kind of the script flip. DevOps worked, infrastructure's code has worked. We don't yet see security as code yet. And you have things like cloud native services which is all developer, goodness. So I think the developers are doing fine. Give 'em a thumbs up and open source's booming. So they're shifting left, CI/CD pipeline. You have some issues around repo, monolithic repos, but devs are doing fine. It's the ops that are now have to level up because that seems to be a hotspot. What's your take? What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if you say you agree, why? >> Yeah, I think devs are doing fine because some of the devs are going into ops. Like the whole movement behind DevOps culture is that devs and ops is one team. The people who are building that application they're also operating that as well. But that's very foreign and few in enterprise space. We know that, right? Big companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Twitter, those guys can do that. They're very tech savvy shops. But when it comes to, if you go down from there to the second tier of enterprises, they are having hard time with that. Once you create software, I've said that, I sound like a broken record here. So once you create piece of software, you want to operate it. You're not always creating it. Especially when it's inhouse software development. It's not your core sort of competency to. You're not giving that software to somebody else or they're not multiple tenants of that software. You are the only user of that software as a company, or maybe maximum to your employees and partners. But that's where it stops. So there are those differences and when it comes to ops, we have to still differentiate the ops of the big companies, which are tech companies, pure tech companies and ops of the traditional enterprise. And you are right, the ops of the traditional enterprise are having tough time to cope up with the changing nature of things. And because they have to run the old traditional stacks whatever they happen to have, SAP, Oracle, financial, whatnot, right? Thousands of applications, they have to run that. And they have to learn on top of that, new scripting languages to operate the new stack, if you will. >> So for ops teams do they have to spin up operating teams for every cloud specialized tooling, there's consequences to that. >> Yeah. There's economics involved, the process, if you are learning three cloud APIs and most probably you will end up spending a lot more time and money on that. Number one, number two, there are a lot more problems which can arise from that, because of the differences in how the APIs work. The rule says if you pick one primary cloud and then you're focused on that, and most of your workloads are there, and then you go to the secondary cloud number two or three on as need basis. I think that's the right approach. >> Well, I want to get your take on something that I'm observing. And again, maybe it's because I'm old school, been around the IT block for a while. I'm observing the multi-vendors kind of as Dave calls the calisthenics, they're out in the market, trying to push their wears and convincing everyone to run their workloads on their infrastructure. multicloud to me sounds like multi-vendor. And I think there might not be a problem yet today so I want to get your reaction to my thoughts. I see the vendors pushing hard on multicloud because they don't have a native cloud. I mean, IBM ultimately will probably end up being a SaaS application on top of one of the CapEx hyperscale, some say, but I think the playbook today for customers is to stay on one native cloud, run cloud native hybrid go in on OneCloud and go fast. Then get success and then go multiple clouds. versus having a multicloud set of services out of the gate. Because if you're VMware you'd love to have cross cloud abstraction layer but that's lock in too. So what's your lock in? Success in the marketplace or vendor access? >> It's tricky actually. I've said that many times, that you don't wake up in the morning and say like, we're going to do multicloud. Nobody does that by choice. So it falls into your lab because of mostly because of what MNA is. And sometimes because of the price to performance ratio is better somewhere else for certain kind of workloads. That's like foreign few, to be honest with you. That's part of my read is, that being a developer an operator of many sort of systems, if you will. And the third tier which we talked about during the VMworld, I think 2019 that you want vendor diversity, just in case one vendor goes down or it's broken up by feds or something, and you want another vendor, maybe for price negotiation tactics, or- >> That's an op mentality. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And that's true, they want choice. They want to get locked in. >> You want choice because, and also like things can go wrong with the provider. We know that, we focus on top three cloud providers and we sort of assume that they'll be there for next 10 years or so at least. >> And what's also true is not everyone can do everything. >> Yeah, exactly. So you have to pick the provider based on all these sort of three sets of high level criteria, if you will. And I think the multicloud should be your last choice. Like you should not be gearing up for that by default but it should be by design, as Chuck said. >> Okay, so I need to ask you what does Supercloud in my opinion, look like five, 10 years out? What's the outcome of a good Supercloud structure? What's it look like? Where did it come from? How did it get there? What's your take? >> I think Supercloud is getting born in the absence of having standards around cloud. That's what it is. Because we don't have standards, we long, or we want the services at different cloud providers, Which have same APIs and there's less learning curve or almost zero learning curve for our developers and operators to learn that stuff. Snowflake is one example and VMware Stack is available at different cloud providers. That's sort of infrastructure as a service example if you will. And snowflake is a sort of data warehouse example and they're going down the stack. Well, they're trying to expand. So there are many examples like that. What was the question again? >> Is Supercloud 10 years out? What does it look like? What's the components? >> Yeah, I think the Supercloud 10 years out will expand because we will expand the software stack faster than the hardware stack and hardware stack will be expanding of course, with the custom chips and all that. There was the huge event yesterday was happening from AWS. >> Yeah, the Silicon. >> Silicon Day. And that's an eyeopening sort of movement and the whole technology consumption, if you will. >> And yeah, the differentiation with the chips with supply chain kind of herding right now, we think it's going to be a forcing function for more cloud adoption. Because if you can't buy networking gear you going to go to the cloud. >> Yeah, so Supercloud to me in 10 years, it will be bigger, better in the likes of HashiCorp. Actually, I think we need likes of HashiCorp on the infrastructure as a service side. I think they will be part of the Supercloud. They are kind of sitting on the side right now kind of a good vendor lost in transition kind of thing. That sort of thing. >> It's like Kubernetes, we'll just close out here. We'll make a statement. Is Kubernetes a developer thing or an infrastructure thing? It's an ops thing. I mean, people are coming out and saying Kubernetes is not a developer issue. >> It's ops thing. >> It's an ops thing. It's in operation, it's under the hood. So you, again, this infrastructure's a service integrating this super pass layer as Dave Vellante and Wikibon call it. >> Yeah, it's ops thing, actually, which enables developers to get that the Azure service, like you can deploy your software in sort of different format containers, and then you don't care like what VMs are those? And, but Serverless is the sort of arising as well. It was hard for a while now it's like the lull state, but I think Serverless will be better in next three to five years on. >> Well, certainly the hyperscale is like AWS and Azure and others have had great CapEx and investments. They need to stay ahead, in your opinion, final question, how do they stay ahead? 'Cause, AWS is not going to stand still nor will Azure, they're pedaling as fast as they can. Google's trying to figure out where they fit in. Are they going to be a real cloud or a software stack? Same with Oracle. To me, it's really, the big race is now with AWS and Azure's nipping at their heels. Hyperscale, what do they need to do to differentiate going forward? >> I think they are in a limbo. They, on one side, they don't want to compete with their customers who are sitting on top of them, likes of Snowflake and others, right? And VMware as well. But at the same time, they have to keep expanding and keep innovating. And they're debating within their themselves. Like, should we compete with these guys? Should we launch similar sort of features and functionality? Or should we keep it open? And what I have heard as of now that internally at AWS, especially, they're thinking about keeping it open and letting people sort of (inaudible)- >> And you see them buying some the Cerner with Oracle that bought Cerner, Amazon bought a healthcare company. I think the likes of MongoDB, Snowflake, Databricks, are perfect examples of what we'll see I think on the AWS side. Azure, I'm not so sure, they like to have a little bit more control at the top of the stack with the SaaS, but I think Databricks has been so successful open source, Snowflake, a little bit more proprietary and closed than Databricks. They're doing well is on top of data, and MongoDB has got great success. All of these things compete with AWS higher level services. So, that advantage of those companies not having the CapEx investment and then going multiple clouds on other ecosystems that's a path of customers. Stay one, go fast, get traction, then go. >> That's huge. Actually the last sort comment I want to make is that, Also, that you guys include this in the definition of Supercloud, the likes of Capital One and Soner sort of vendors, right? So they are verticals, Capital One is in this financial vertical, and then Soner which Oracle bar they are in this healthcare vertical. And remember in the beginning of the cloud and when the cloud was just getting born. We used to say that we will have the community clouds which will be serving different verticals. >> Specialty clouds. >> Specialty clouds, community clouds. And actually that is happening now at very sort of small level. But I think it will start happening at a bigger level. The Goldman Sachs and others are trying to build these services on the financial front risk management and whatnot. I think that will be- >> Well, what's interesting, which you're bringing up a great discussion. We were having discussions around these vertical clouds like Goldman Sachs Capital One, Liberty Mutual. They're going all in on one native cloud then going into multiple clouds after, but then there's also the specialty clouds around functionality, app identity, data security. So you have multiple 3D dimensional clouds here. You can have a specialty cloud just on identity. I mean, identity on Amazon is different than Azure. Huge issue. >> Yeah, I think at some point we have to distinguish these things, which are being built on top of these infrastructure as a service, in past with a platform, a service, which is very close to infrastructure service, like the lines are blurred, we have to distinguish these two things from these Superclouds. Actually, what we are calling Supercloud maybe there'll be better term, better name, but we are all industry path actually, including myself and you or everybody else. Like we tend to mix these things up. I think we have to separate these things a little bit to make things (inaudible) >> Yeah, I think that's what the super path thing's about because you think about the next generation SaaS has to be solved by innovations of the infrastructure services, to your point about HashiCorp and others. So it's not as clear as infrastructure platform, SaaS. There's going to be a lot of interplay between this levels of services. >> Yeah, we are in this flasker situation a lot of developers are lost. A lot of operators are lost in this transition and it's just like our economies right now. Like I was reading at CNBC today, and here's sort of headline that people are having hard time understanding what state the economy is in. And so same is true with our technology economy. Like we don't know what state we are in. It's kind of it's in the transition phase right now. >> Well we're definitely in a bad economy relative to the consumer market. I've said on theCUBE publicly, Dave has as well, not as aggressive. I think the tech is still in a boom. I don't think there's tech bubble at all that's bursting, I think, the digital transformation from post COVID is going to continue. And this is the first recession downturn where the hyperscalers have been in market, delivering the economic value, almost like they're pumping on all cylinders and going to the next level. Go back to 2008, Amazon web services, where were they? They were just emerging out. So the cloud economic impact has not been factored into the global GDP relationship. I think all the firms that are looking at GDP growth and tech spend as a correlation, are completely missing the boat on the fact that cloud economics and digital transformation is a big part of the new economics. So refactoring business models this is continuing and it's just the early days. >> Yeah, I have said that many times that cloud works good in the bad economy and cloud works great in the good economy. Do you know why? Because there are different type of workloads in the good economy. A lot of experimentation, innovative solutions go into the cloud. You can do experimentation that you have extra money now, but in the bad economy you don't want to spend the CapEx because don't have money. Money is expensive at that point. And then you want to keep working and you don't need (inaudible) >> I think inflation's a big factor too right now. Well, Sarbjeet, great to see you. Thanks for coming into our studio for our stage performance for Supercloud 22, this is a pilot episode that we're going to get a consortium of experts Cloud RRT like yourselves, in the conversation to discuss what the architecture is. What is a taxonomy? What are the key building blocks and what things need to be in place for Supercloud capability? Because it's clear that if without standards, without defacto standards, we're at this tipping point where if it all comes together, not all one company can do everything. Customers want choice, but they also want to go fast too. So DevOps is working. It's going the next level. We see this as Supercloud. So thank you so much for your participation. >> Thanks for having me. And I'm looking forward to listen to the other sessions (inaudible) >> We're going to take it on A stickers. We'll take it on the internet. I'm John Furrier, stay tuned for more Supercloud 22 coverage, here at the Palo Alto studios in one minute. (bright music)

>>Hello. Welcome back to our super cloud 22 event. I'm John F host the cue with my co-host Dave ante. Extracting the signal from noise. We're proud to have two amazing cube alumnis here. We got Sanja Putin. Who's now the CEO of cohesive the emo Aaron who's the CTO. Co-founder also former CEO Cub alumni. The father of hyper-converged welcome back to the cube I endorsed the >>Cloud. Absolutely. Is the father. Great >>To see you guys. Thank thanks for coming on and perfect timing. The new job taking over that. The helm Mo it at cohesive big news, but part of super cloud, we wanna dig into it. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you for having >>Us here. So first of all, we'll get into super before we get into the Supercloud. I want to just get the thoughts on the move Sanjay. We've been following your career since 2010. You've been a cube alumni from that point, we followed that your career. Why cohesive? Why now? >>Yeah, John David, thank you first and all for having us here, and it's great to be at your event. You know, when I left VMware last year, I took some time off just really primarily. I hadn't had a sabbatical in probably 18 years. I joined two boards, Phillips and sneak, and then, you know, started just invest and help entrepreneurs. Most of them were, you know, Indian Americans like me who were had great tech, were looking for the kind of go to market connections. And it was just a wonderful year to just de to unwind a bit. And along the, the way came CEO calls. And I'd asked myself, the question is the tech the best in the industry? Could you see value creation that was signi significant and you know, three, four months ago, Mohit and Carl Eschenbach and a few of the board members of cohesive called me and walk me through Mo's decision, which he'll talk about in a second. And we spent the last few months getting to know him, and he's everything you describe. He's not just the father of hyperconverge. And he wrote the Google file system, wicked smart, built a tech platform better than that second time. But we had to really kind of walk through the chemistry between us, which we did in long walks in, in, you know, discrete places so that people wouldn't find us in a Starbucks and start gossiping. So >>Why Sanjay? There you go. >>Actually, I should say it's a combination of two different decisions. The first one was to, for me to take a different role and I run the company as a CEO for, for nine years. And, you know, as a, as a technologist, I always like, you know, going deep into technology at the same time, the CEO duties require a lot of breadth, right? You're talking to customers, you're talking to partners, you're doing so much. And with the way we've been growing the with, you know, we've been fortunate, it was becoming hard to balance both. It's really also not fair to the company. Yeah. So I opted to do the depth job, you know, be the visionary, be the technologist. And that was the first decision to bring a CEO, a great CEO from outside. >>And I saw your video on the site. You said it was your decision. Yes. Go ahead. I have to ask you, cuz this is a real big transition for founders and you know, I have founder artists cuz everyone, you know, calls me that. But being the founder of a company, it's always hard to let go. I mean nine years as CEO, it's not like you had a, you had a great run. So this was it timing for you? Was it, was it a structural shift, like at super cloud, we're talking about a major shift that's happening right now in the industry. Was it a balance issue? Was it more if you wanted to get back in and in the tech >>Look, I, I also wanna answer, you know, why Sanja, but, but I'll address your question first. I always put the company first what's right for the company. Is it for me to start get stuck the co seat and try to juggle this depth and Brad simultaneously. I mean, I can stroke my ego a little bit there, but it's not good for the company. What's best for the company. You know, I'm a technologist. How about I oversee the technology part in partnership with so many great people I have in the company and I bring someone kick ass to be the CEO. And so then that was the second decision. Why Sanja when Sanjay, you know, is a very well known figure. He's managed billions of dollars of business in VMware. You know, been there, done that has, you know, some of the biggest, you know, people in the industry on his speed dial, you know, we were really fortunate to have someone like that, come in and accept the role of the CEO of cohesive. I think we can take the company to new Heights and I'm looking forward to my partnership with, with Sanja on this. >>It it's we, we called it the splash brothers and >>The, >>In the vernacular. It doesn't matter who gets the ball, whether it's step clay, we shoot. And I think if you look at some of the great partnerships, whether it was gates bomber, there, plenty of history of this, where a founder and a someone who was, it has to be complimentary skills. If I was a technologist myself and wanted to code we'd clash. Yeah. But I think this was really a match me in heaven because he, he can, I want him to keep innovating and building the best platform for today in the future. And our customers tell one customer told me, this is the best tech they've seen since VMware, 20 years ago, AWS, 10 years ago. And most recently this was a global 100 big customers. So I feel like this combination, now we have to show that it works. It's, you know, it's been three, four months. My getting to know him, you know, I'm day eight on the job, but I'm loving it. >>Well, it's a sluman model too. It's more modern example. You saw, he did it with Fred Ludy at service now. Yes. And, and of course at, at snowflake, yeah. And his book, you read his book. I dunno if you've read his book, amp it up, but app it up. And he says, I always you'll love this. Give great deference to the founder. Always show great respect. Right. And for good reason. So >>In fact, I mean you could talk to him, you actually met to >>Frank. I actually, you know, a month or so back, I actually had dinner with him in his ranch in Moana. And I posed the question. There was a number of CEOs that went there and I posed him the question. So Frank, you know, many of us, we grow being deaf guys, you know? And eventually when we take on the home of our CEO, we have to do breadth. How do you do it? And he's like, well, let me tell you, I was never a death guy. I'm a breath guy. >>I'm like, >>That's my answer. Yeah. >>So, so I >>Want the short story. So the day I got the job, I, I got a text from Frank and I said, what's your advice the first time CEO, three words, amp it up, >>Amp it up. Right? Yeah. >>And so you're always on brand, man. >>So you're an amazing operator. You've proven that time and time again at SAP, VMware, et cetera, you feel like now you, you, you wanna do both of those skills. You got the board and you got the operations cuz you look, you know, look at sloop when he's got Scarelli wherever he goes, he brings Scarelli with him as sort of the operator. How, how do you, how are you thinking >>About that? I mean it's early days, but yeah. Yeah. Small. I mean I've, you know, when I was, you know, it was 35,000 people at VMware, 80, 90,000 people at SAP, a really good run. The SAP run was 10 to 20 billion innovative products, especially in analytics and VMware six to 12 end user computing cloud. So I learned a lot. I think the company, you know, being about 2000 employees plus not to mayor tomorrow, but over the course next year I can meet everybody. Right? So first off the executive team, 10 of us, we're, we're building more and more cohesiveness if I could use that word between us, which is great, the next, you know, layers of VPs and every manager, I think that's possible. So I I'm a people person and a customer person. So I think when you take that sort of extroverted mindset, we'll bring energy to the workforce to, to retain the best and then recruit the best. >>And you know, even just the week we, we were announced that this announcement happened. Our website traffic went through the roof, the highest it's ever been, lots of resumes coming in. So, and then lots of customer engagement. So I think we'll take this, but I, I feel very good about the possibilities, because see, for me, I didn't wanna walk into the company to a company where the technology risk was high. Okay. I feel like that I can go to bed at night and the technology risk is low. This guy's gonna run a machine at the current and the future. And I'm hearing that from customers. Now, what I gotta do is get the, the amp it up part on the go to market. I know a little thing or too about >>That. You've got that down. I think the partnership is really key here. And again, nine use the CEO and then Sanja points to our super cloud trend that we've been looking at, which is there's another wave happening. There's a structural change in real time happening now, cloud one was done. We saw that transition, AWS cloud native now cloud native with an kind of operating system kind of vibe going on with on-premise hybrid edge. People say multi-cloud, but we're looking at this as an opportunity for companies like cohesive to go to the next level. So I gotta ask you guys, what do you see as structural change right now in the industry? That's disruptive. People are using cloud and scale and data to refactor their business models, change modern cases with cloud native. How are you guys looking at this next structural change that's happening right now? Yeah, >>I'll take that. So, so I'll start by saying that. Number one, data is the new oil and number two data is exploding, right? Every year data just grows like crazy managing data is becoming harder and harder. You mentioned some of those, right? There's so many cloud options available. Cloud one different vendors have different clouds. There is still on-prem there's edge infrastructure. And the number one problem that happens is our data is getting fragmented all over the place and managing so many fragments of data is getting harder and harder even within a cloud or within on-prem or within edge data is fragmented. Right? Number two, I think the hackers out there have realized that, you know, to make money, it's no longer necessary to Rob banks. They can actually see steal the data. So ransomware attacks on the rise it's become a boardroom level discussion. They say there's a ransomware attack happening every 11 seconds or so. Right? So protecting your data has become very important security data. Security has become very important. Compliance is important, right? So people are looking for data management solutions, the next gen data management platform that can really provide all this stuff. And that's what cohesive is about. >>What's the difference between data management and backup. Explain that >>Backup is just an entry point. That's one use case. I wanna draw an analogy. Let's draw an analogy to my former company, Google right? Google started by doing Google search, but is Google really just a search engine. They've built a platform that can do multiple things. You know, they might have started with search, but then they went down to roll out Google maps and Gmail and YouTube and so many other things on that platform. So similarly backups might be just the first use case, but it's really about that platform on which you can do more with the data that's next gen data management. >>But, but you am, I correct. You don't consider yourself a security company. One of your competitors is actually pivoting and in positioning themselves as a security company, I've always felt like data management, backup and recovery data protection is an adjacency to security, but those two worlds are coming together. How do you see >>It? Yeah. The way I see it is that security is part of data management. You start maybe by backing with data, but then you secure it and then you do more with that data. If you're only doing security, then you're just securing the data. You, you gotta do more with the data. So data management is much bigger. So >>It's a security is a subset of data. I mean, there you go. Big TA Sanjay. >>Well, I mean I've, and I, I, I I'd agree. And I actually, we don't get into that debate. You know, I've told the company, listen, we'll figure that out. Cuz who cares about the positioning at the bottom? My email, I say we are data management and data security company. Okay. Now what's the best word that describes three nouns, which I think we're gonna do management security and analytics. Okay. He showed me a beautiful diagram, went to his home in the course of one of these, you know, discrete conversations. And this was, I mean, he's done this before. Many, if you watch on YouTube, he showed me a picture of an ice big iceberg. And he said, listen, you know, if you look at companies like snowflake and data bricks, they're doing the management security and mostly analytics of data. That's the top of the iceberg, the stuff you see. >>But a lot of the stuff that's get backed archive is the bottom of the iceberg that you don't see. And you try to, if you try to ask a question on age data, the it guy will say, get a ticket. I'll come back with three days. I'll UNIV the data rehydrate and then you'll put it into a database. And you can think now imagine that you could do live searches analytics on, on age data that's analytics. So I think the management, the security, the analytics of, you know, if you wanna call it secondary data or backed up data or data, that's not hot and live warm, colder is a huge opportunity. Now, what do you wanna call one phrase that describes all of it. Do you call that superpower management security? Okay, whatever you wanna call it. I view it as saying, listen, let's build a platform. >>Some people call Google, a search company. People, some people call Google and information company and we just have to go and pursue every CIO and every CSO that has a management and a security and do course analytics problem. And that's what we're doing. And when I talk to the, you know, I didn't talk to all the 3000 customers, but the biggest customers and I was doing diligence. They're like this thing has got enormous potential. Okay. And we just have to now go focus, get every fortune 1000 company to pick us because this problem, even the first use case you talk back up is a little bit like, you know, razor blades and soap you've needed. You needed it 30 years ago and you'll need it for 30 years. It's just that the tools that were built in the last generation that were companies formed in 1990s, one of them I worked for years ago are aids are not built for the cloud. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity where many of those, those, those nos management security analytics will become part of what we do. And we'll come up with the right phrase for what the companies and do course >>Sanjay. So ma and Sanja. So given that given that's this Google transition, I like that example search was a data problem. They got sequenced to a broader market opportunity. What super cloud we trying to tease out is what does that change over from a data standpoint, cuz now the operating environments change has become more complex and the enterprises are savvy. Developers are savvy. Now they want, they want SAS solutions. They want freemium and expanding. They're gonna drive the operations agenda with DevOps. So what is the complexity that needs to be abstracted away? How do you see that moment? Because this is what people are talking about. They're saying security's built in, driven by developers. Developers are driving operations behavior. So what is the shift? Where do you guys see this new? Yeah. Expansive for cohesive. How do you fit into super cloud? >>So let me build up from that entry point. Maybe back up to what you're saying is the super cloud, right? Let me draw that journey. So let's say the legacy players are just doing backups. How, how sad is it that you have one silo sitting there just for peace of mind as an insurance policy and you do nothing with the data. If you have to do something with the data, you have to build another silo, you have to build another copy. You have to manage it separately. Right. So clearly that's a little bit brain damaged. Right. So, okay. So now you take a little bit of, you know, newer vendors who may take that backup platform and do a little bit more with that. Maybe they provide security, but your problem still remains. How do you do more with the data? How do you do some analytics? >>Like he's saying, right. How do you test development on that? How do you migrate the data to the cloud? How do you manage it? The data at scale? How do you do you provide a unified experience across, across multiple cloud, which you're calling the super cloud. That's where cohesive goes. So what we do, we provide a platform, right? We have tentacles in on-prem in each of the clouds. And on top of that, it looks like one platform that you manage. We have a single control plane, a UI. If you may, a single pin of glass, if, if you may, that our customers can use to manage all of it. And now it looks, starts looking like one platform. You mentioned Google, do you, when you go to, you know, kind Google search or a URL, do you really care? What happens behind the scenes mean behind the scenes? Google's built a platform that spans the whole world. No, >>But it's interesting. What's behind the scenes. It's a beautiful now. And I would say, listen, one other thing to pull on Dave, on the security part, I saw a lot of vendors this day in this space, white washing a security message on top of backup. Okay. And CSO, see through that, they'll offer warranties and guarantees or whatever, have you of X million dollars with a lot of caveats, which will never paid because it's like escape clause here. We won't pay it. Yeah. And, and what people really want is a scalable solution that works. And you know, we can match every warranty that's easy. And what I heard was this was the most scalable solution at scale. And that's why you have to approach this with a Google type mindset. I love the fact that every time you listen to sun pitch, I would, what, what I like about him, the most common word to use is scale. >>We do things at scale. So I found that him and AUR and some of the early Google people who come into the company had thought about scale. And, and even me it's like day eight. I found even the non-tech pieces of it. The processes that, you know, these guys are built for simple things in some cases were better than some of the things I saw are bigger companies I'd been used to. So we just have to continue, you know, building a scale platform with the enterprise. And then our cloud product is gonna be the simple solution for the masses. And my view of the world is there's 5,000 big companies and 5 million small companies we'll push the 5 million small companies as the cloud. Okay. Amazon's an investor in the company. AWS is a big partner. We'll talk about I'm sure knowing John's interest in that area, but that's a cloud play and that's gonna go to the cloud really fast. You not build you're in the marketplace, you're in the marketplace. I mean, maybe talk about the history of the Amazon relationship investing and all that. >>Yeah, absolutely. So in two years back late 2020, we, you know, in collaboration with AWS who also by the way is an investor now. And in cohesive, we rolled out what we call data management as a service. It's our SaaS service where we run our software in the cloud. And literally all customers have to do is just go there and sign on, right? They don't have to manage any infrastructure and stuff. What's nice is they can then combine that with, you know, software that they might have bought from cohesive. And it still looks like one platform. So what I'm trying to say is that they get a choice of the, of the way they wanna consume our software. They can consume it as a SAS service in the cloud. They can buy our software, manage it themselves, offload it to a partner on premises or what have you. But it still looks like that one platform, what you're calling a Supercloud >>Yeah. And developers are saying, they want the bag of Legos to compose their solutions. That's the Nirvana they want to get there. So that's, it has to look the same. >>Well, what is it? What we're calling a Superlo can we, can we test that for a second? So data management and service could span AWS and on-prem with the identical experience. So I guess I would call that a Supercloud I presume it's not gonna through AWS span multiple clouds, but, but >>Why not? >>Well, well interesting cuz we had this, I mean, so, okay. So we could in the future, it doesn't today. Well, >>David enough kind of pause for a second. Everything that we do there, if we do it will be customer driven. So there might be some customers I'll give you one Walmart that may want to store the data in a non AWS cloud risk cuz they're competitors. Right. So, but the control plane could still be in, in, in the way we built it, but the data might be stored somewhere else. >>What about, what about a on-prem customer? Who says, Hey, I, I like cohesive. I've now got multiple clouds. I want the identical experience across clouds. Yeah. Okay. So, so can you do that today? How do you do that today? Can we talk >>About that? Yeah. So basically think roughly about the split between the data plane and the control plane, the data plane is, you know, our cohesive clusters that could be sitting on premises that could be sitting in multiple data centers or you can run an instance of that cluster in the cloud, whichever cloud you choose. Right. That's what he was referring to as the data plane. So collectively all these clusters from the data plane, right? They stored the data, but it can all be managed using the control plane. So you still get that single image, the single experience across all clouds. And by the way, the, the, the, the cloud vendor does actually benefit because here's a customer. He mentioned a customer that may not wanna go to AWS, but when they get the data plane on a different cloud, whether it's Azure, whether it's the Google cloud, they then get data management services. Maybe they're able to replicate the data over to AWS. So AWS also gains. >>And your deployment model is you instantiate the cohesive stack on each of the regions and clouds, is that correct? And you building essentially, >>It all happens behind the scenes. That's right. You know, just like Google probably has their tentacles all over the world. We will instantiate and then make it all look like one platform. >>I mean, you should really think it's like a human body, right? The control planes, the head. Okay. And that controls everything. The data plane is large because it's a lot of the data, right? It's the rest of the body, that data plane could be wherever you want it to be. Traditionally, the part the old days was tape. Then you got disk. Now you got multiple clouds. So that's the way we think about it. And there on that piece of it will be neutral, right? We should be multi-cloud to the data plane being every single place. Cause it's customer demand. Where do you want your store data? Air gapped. On-prem no problem. We'll work with Dell. Okay. You wanna be in a particular cloud, AWS we'll work then optimized with S3 and glacier. So this is where I think the, the path to a multi-cloud or Supercloud is to be customer driven, but the control plane sits in Amazon. So >>We're blessed to have a number of, you know, technical geniuses in here. So earlier we were speaking to Ben wa deja VI, and what they do is different. They don't instantiate an individual, you know, regions. What they do is of a single global. Is there a, is there an advantage of doing it the way the cohesive does it in terms of simplicity or how do you see that? Is that a future direction for you from a technology standpoint? What are the trade offs there? >>So you want to be where the data is when you said single global, I take it that they run somewhere and the data has to go there. And in this day age, correct >>Said that. He said, you gotta move that in this >>Day and >>Age query that's, you know, across regions, look >>In this day and age with the way the data is growing, the way it is, it's hard to move around the data. It's much easier to move around the competition. And in these instances, what have you, so let the data be where it is and you manage it right there. >>So that's the advantage of instantiating in multiple regions. As you don't have to move the >>Data cost, we have the philosophy we call it. Let's bring the, the computation to the data rather than the data to >>The competition and the same security model, same governance model, same. How do you, how do you federate that? >>So it's all based on policies. You know, this overarching platform controlled by, by the control plane, you just, our customers just put in the policies and then the underlying nuts and bolts just take care >>Of, you know, it's when I first heard and start, I started watching some of his old videos, ACE really like hyperconverged brought to secondary storage. In fact, he said, oh yeah, that's great. You got it. Because I first called this idea, hyperconverged secondary storage, because the idea of him inventing hyperconverge was bringing compute to storage. It had never been done. I mean, you had the kind of big VC stuff, but these guys were the first to bring that hyperconverge at, at Nutanix. So I think this is that same idea of bringing computer storage, but now applied not to the warm data, but to the rest of the data, including a >>Lot of, what about developers? What's, what's your relationship with developers? >>Maybe you talk about the marketplace and everything >>He's yeah. And I'm, I'm curious as to do you have a PAs layer, what we call super PAs layer to create an identical developer experience across your Supercloud. I'm gonna my >>Term. So we want our customers not just to benefit from the software that we write. We also want them to benefit from, you know, software that's written by developers by third party people and so on and so forth. So we also support a marketplace on the platform where you can download apps from third party developers and run them on this platform. There's a, a number of successful apps. There's one, you know, look like I said, our entry point might be backups, but even when backups, we don't do everything. Look, for instance, we don't backup mainframes. There is a, a company we partner with, you know, and their software can run in our marketplace. And it's actually used by many, many of our financial customers. So our customers don't get, just get the benefit of what we build, but they also get the benefit of what third parties build. Another analogy I like to draw. You can tell. And front of analogy is I drew an analogy to hyperscale is like Google. Yeah. The second analogy I like to draw is that to a simple smartphone, right? A smartphone starts off by being a great phone. But beyond that, it's also a GPS player. It's a, it's a, it's a music player. It's a camera, it's a flashlight. And it also has a marketplace from where you can download apps and extend the power of that platform. >>Is that a, can we think of that as a PAs layer or no? Is it really not? You can, okay. You can say, is it purpose built for what you're the problem that you're trying to solve? >>So we, we just built APIs. Yeah. Right. We have an SDK that developers can use. And through those APIs, they get to leverage the underlying services that exist on the platform. And now developers can use that to take advantage of all that stuff. >>And it was, that was a key factor for me too. Cause I, what I, you know, I've studied all the six, seven players that sort of so-called leaders. Nobody had a developer ecosystem, nobody. Right? The old folks were built for the hardware era, but anyones were built for the cloud to it didn't have any partners were building on their platform. So I felt for me listen, and that the example of, you know, model nine rights, the name of the company that does back up. So there's, there's companies that are built on and there's a number of others. So our goal is to have a big tent, David, to everybody in the ecosystem to partner with us, to build on this platform. And, and that may take over time, but that's the way we're build >>It. And you have a metadata layer too, that has the intelligence >>To correct. It's all abstract. That that's right. So it's a combination of data and metadata. We have lots of metadata that keeps track of where the data is. You know, it allows you to index the data you can do quick searches. You can actually, you, we talking about the control plan from that >>Tracing, >>You can inject a search that'll through search throughout your multi-cloud environment, right? The super cloud that you call it. We have all that, all that goodness sounds >>Like a Supercloud John. >>Yeah. I mean, data tracing involved can trace the data lineage. >>You, you can trace the data lineage. So we, you know, provide, you know, compliance and stuff. So you can, >>All right. So my final question to wrap up, we guys, first of all, thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy, San Jose. We, we know what you're gonna do. You're gonna amp it up and, you know, knock all your numbers out. Think you always do. But what I'm interested in, what you're gonna jump into, cuz now you're gonna have the creative license to jump in to the product, the platform there has to be the next level in your mind. Can you share your thoughts on where this goes next? Love the control plane, separate out from the data plane. I think that plays well for super. How >>Much time do you have John? This guy's got, he's got a wealth. Ditis keep >>Going. Mark. Give us the most important thing you're gonna focus on. That kind of brings the super cloud and vision together. >>Yeah. Right away. I'm gonna, perhaps I, I can ion into two things. The first one is I like to call it building the, the machine, the system, right. Just to draw an analogy. Look, I draw an analogy to the us traffic system. People from all walks of life, rich, poor Democrats, Republicans, you know, different states. They all work in the, the traffic system and we drive well, right. It's a system that just works. Whereas in some other countries, you know, the system doesn't work. >>We know, >>We know a few of those. >>It's not about works. It's not about the people. It's the same people who would go from here to those countries and, and not dry. Well, so it's all about the system. So the first thing I, I have my sights on is to really strengthen the system that we have in our research development to make it a machine. I mean, it functions quite well even today, but wanna take it to the next level. Right. So that I wanna get to a point where innovation just happens in the grassroots. And it just, just like >>We automations scale optic brings all, >>Just happens without anyone overseeing it. Anyone there's no single point of bottleneck. I don't have to go take any diving catches or have you, there are people just working, you know, in a decentralized fashion and innovation just happens. Yeah. The second thing I work on of course is, you know, my heart and soul is in, you know, driving the vision, you know, the next level. And that of course is part of it. So those are the two things >>We heard from all day in our super cloud event that there's a need for an, an operating system. Yeah. Whether that's defacto standard or open. Correct. Do you see a consortium around the corner potentially to bring people together so that things could work together? Cuz there really isn't no stand there. Isn't a standards bodies. Now we have great hyperscale growth. We have on-prem we got the super cloud thing happening >>And it's a, it's kind of like what is an operating system? Operating system exposes some APIs that the applications can then use. And if you think about what we've been trying to do with the marketplace, right, we've built a huge platform and that platform is exposed through APIs. That third party developers can use. Right? And even we, when we, you know, built more and more services on top, you know, we rolled our D as we rolled out, backup as a service and a ready for thing security as a service governance, as a service, they're using those APIs. So we are building a distributor, putting systems of sorts. >>Well, congratulations on a great journey. Sanja. Congratulations on taking the hem. Thank you've got ball control. Now you're gonna be calling the ball cohesive as they say, it's, >>It's a team. It's, you know, I think I like that African phrase. If you want to go fast, you go alone. If you wanna go far, you go together. So I've always operated with the best deal. I'm so fortunate. This is to me like a dream come true because I always thought I wanted to work with a technologist that frees me up to do what I like. I mean, I started as an engineer, but that's not what I am today. Right? Yeah. So I do understand the product and this category I think is right for disruption. So I feel excited, you know, it's changing growing. Yeah. No. And it's a, it requires innovation with a cloud scale mindset and you guys have been great friends through the years. >>We'll be, we'll be watching you. >>I think it's not only disruption. It's creation. Yeah. There's a lot of white space that just hasn't been created yet. >>You're gonna have to, and you know, the proof, isn't the pudding. Yeah. You already have five of the biggest 10 financial institutions in the us and our customers. 25% of the fortune 500 users, us two of the biggest five pharmaceutical companies in the world use us. Probably, you know, some of the biggest companies, you know, the cars you have, you know, out there probably are customers. So it's already happening. >>I know you got an IPO filed confidentially. I know you can't talk numbers, but I can tell by your confidence, you're feeling good right now we are >>Feeling >>Good. Yeah. One day, one week, one month at a time. I mean, you just, you know, I like the, you know, Jeff Bezos, Andy jazzy expression, which is, it's always day one, you know, just because you've had success, even, you know, if, if a and when an IPO O makes sense, you just have to stay humble and hungry because you realize, okay, we've had a lot of success in the fortune 1000, but there's a lot of white space that hasn't picked USS yet. So let's go, yeah, there's lots of midmarket account >>Product opportunities are still, >>You know, I just stay humble and hungry and if you've got the team and then, you know, I'm really gonna be working also in the ecosystem. I think there's a lot of very good partners. So lots of ideas brew through >>The head. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on our super cloud event and, and, and also doubling up on the news of the new appointment and congratulations on the success guys. Coverage super cloud 22, I'm sure. Dave ante, thanks for watching. Stay tuned for more segments after this break.

(light music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here Palo Alto for a big event. Supercloud 22, we've got a great ecosystem conversation here. Ramesh Prabagaran, who's the co-founder and CEO, Prosimo. Ramesh, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me, John. >> So, I wanted to bring you in because we've had previous CUBE conversations around cloud networking, latency, you also have some, some pedigree, Viptela. The folks in the industry know that's been a deep tech company. >> Yep. >> You have been around the block. You've seen the movie before. You've seen the tech trends. You've seen the hype. You've seen the fluff. Where's the meat on the bone with Supercloud in your opinion? >> So it, it starts with what enterprises are struggling with, right? And if you take a very simple example, it's actually quite fresh in my mind because I was just having this conversation this morning. A large bank has an application sitting in AWS, right? And they have to provide the application access to the treasury, to their suppliers, to ticker feeds, to all their downstream partners, and so on and so forth. Guess what? They don't control, where all those things are. They're in very different regions and very different clouds. And so you, whether you like it or not, you have a problem here, right? And so it starts with, for the particular bank, what are the capabilities that they need, right? And so AWS provides a whole host of native capabilities, but they still need to build a few more things on top. So going by, essentially the definition of Supercloud, even within a single cloud you need to build a few more capabilities on top. That gets worsened by the fact that now you need to provide access to various other clouds, various other regions and, and so forth. So, whether we like it or not, this movie is here to stay. >> What's the difference between Supercloud and multi-cloud? Because multi-cloud, I've been saying, is not necessarily a market yet. >> Correct, yes. So, Supercloud is essentially the cloud native capabilities provided by the hyperscalers, get you probably 30, 40% of the way, right? But then, in order to deliver on a care about, right? In our case, from a cloud networking standpoint, that is experience, that's performance, reliability, zero trust access, and then so forth. You have to take that a little bit further, and so we have vendors, like us, that actually build capabilities on top of the hyperscalers, right? Now, even if you think of a single cloud, how you build that is different on AWS than it's on Azure, than on GCP. But do the customers care? No, they want to be able to consume it in exactly the same way across all of them. So, whether it's multi-cloud or a single cloud, you have a problem that is white space on top of the hyperscalers capabilities that you just need to build. >> And what problems is it solving today? Because again, I, again, multi-cloud, I've yet seen the problem. I kind of get what's happening. Multiple clouds do exist. Use cases matter, maybe best debri, but they're standalone. They're not really interoperating, so to speak. So people have been successful on, on public cloud. >> That's correct, yes. >> For use cases? >> Absolutely. So even if you take a single cloud, for example, right? You have multiple problems to, to address. So let's take the example of, I have users coming from various different regions, around the globe, and I have apps that are spread, maybe not across like all clouds, but single cloud, maybe multiple regions, right? Now, I have a reach problem, which is, I need to go from where the user is to where the application is sitting. I have an experience problem because if my spinning wheel shows up, I'm going to go crazy. I have a security problem because I want to make sure it's only me that have access to it, right? But does the cloud provider solve for this entirely? No, they give you the nuts, the bolts, or what we call ours essentially, what you need is a, is a latte. They give you really nice coffee beans, not just one flavor, 20 flavors of those. They give you raw sugar and a few other things. They give you five different flavors of milk, but you got to make your own latte. So, that's what we do. >> And this is where the infrastructure transformation's happening. >> Exactly. >> And the super paz layer, as Dave Vellante and I have talked about in cloud, is you have to integrate a native cloud. >> Correct. >> Which is beautiful. It's integrated, everything works together, there's a lot of lattes to be made or espressos. >> Exactly. >> I mean, tons of great things there. So, big check marks, double check, gold star for AWS. >> Correct. >> All good. Now, on premises, we've found that hybrid is a steady state. >> Exactly. >> Okay, that's cloud operations. Now, you got the edge. Where does the Supercloud strategy come in? For the folks watching there, it's like, "Hey, okay, I get that." "But I don't want to just buy into another vendor's hype." >> Absolutely. >> "I got to build my own cloud," to your point about the lattes. >> Correct. >> They have to make their own infrastructure an application environment to power the developer. >> Exactly. And, and hybrid is here to stay as, as you pointed out, right, John? So, I have my data center and let's say when most folks start out they start to like a single region of a single cloud, right? And what are you most concerned about there? Hey, can I migrate? Can I start to build applications in the public cloud, right? And all you care about is can you talk back into my data center? Like, as long as some basic hygiene is there that's all they care about, right? The problem happens when you go from, kind of, the first five EC2 instances to 50 to a hundred, then you have a few other things that you need to care about, right? That's really kind of where the, the Supercloud capabilities start to come in, right? Because you have the cloud native things you can make that work for the first few days, but then after that you need augmented capabilities. >> So Ramesh, some people will say, "Hey, John, Supercloud okay, it's funny, ha ha ha." But isn't it just SAS? >> No, SAS is a delivery mechanism, right? And so, so there is the capability and that is how do you want to consume, right? And so capabilities or cloud native capabilities or piece of software capabilities or (unintelligible) cluster form factor and so forth. How do you want to consume? Maybe it's a package form factor, it is a size, it could even be passive if it's sitting in the, in the element, and then so forth, right? And so you really want to distinguish those two. And, and, and that's how we see the, the industry evolve. >> Can Superclouds be specialty clouds? Like is Snowflake a Supercloud? Is Goldman Sachs financial cloud a Supercloud? >> Absolutely, right. So Supercloud is not like a, a conglomeration of multiple capabilities, right? It can be for a specific use case, it can be for a specific functionality. So we, we consider our capabilities by the definition as a Supercloud in, in networking, right? In cloud networking, in Prosimo. So, does that solve the entirety of what I want to do in the cloud? No, absolutely not. There's data, there's computers, a whole bunch of other things, but for a specialty you do have some Supercloud. >> Yeah, in fact, I had a note here. I was going to ask you will, when will there be specialty clouds, apps, identity, data, security, nteworking, we will see those? >> Absolutely, yeah. And, and those are slowly starting to brew, right? So you have, you have identity as one, you have networking as one, you have the zero trust piece as, as another one, you have data as a, as another one. So when all these things come together, absolutely. That's what, that's what enterprise customers care about. >> So I love infrastructure as code, that drove a lot of the evolution and revolution of DevOps. When are we going to see security as code and network as code? Or is it there? >> No networkers code, for sure. It's already, it's already there. It's probably in its early innings, I would say, but we are starting to see that already. The reason for that is really simple. Enough CIOs have yelled at their networking teams to say, "my app guys can get this done three," "four times a day, you get this done once a week." Right? And so, that has actually driven quite a bit of innovation, >> It's slow, >> It's slow, right? And so that's driven quite a bit of innovation. It all starts with, hey, can I build a Terraform provider and then just integrate into Terraform? But it doesn't, it doesn't stop there, right? There's a whole bunch of additional capabilities, a day in troubleshooting, a whole bunch of things that need to come together. But I would say networkers code has already started to, to, to take ship. >> Which, that's a great point about specialty clouds. What about vertical clouds too? 'Cause you got insurance, oil and gas, FinTech. Both sides of the stack can have specialty clouds. >> Absolutely, yeah. So, it, what's driving specialty clouds, right? Some of it is compliance, mainly because you just have to shard the data, and when you shard the data, the entirety gets, gets sharded, right? Some of it driven by use case, because some are a little more serverless, service mesh and intelligence focused, some are a little more infrastructure focused. So you do see that taking off. I would say we've seen a whole lot more, kind of, on the horizontal side, less on the vertical side, but that's really happening, right? >> Yeah, I think that, to me, indicates a Supercloud. The fact that the diversity of the application on the clouds themselves, someone could be spending, say, Liberty Mutual or Goldman Sachs. They were once spending that as CapEx. >> Exactly. >> Now it's OPEX, so they become a service provider. So, if you have scale with data and expertise, you become a Supercloud by default. And you don't have to pay for the CapEx, >> Yeah. You're already paying in. >> Exactly, yeah. >> And that's what snowflake basically did with data warehouse. >> That's right, yeah. >> I mean they're basically a data warehouse. Refactored on the cloud and then go, "whoa, let's go to Azure." >> Yeah. And, and where does that data decide do you ask that question? No, right? You just assume that, hey, retrospective of it's a single cloud, multiple regions, it's there. If it's stretched to multiple clouds, yes, it's just there, but you, you talk about like that. >> In our cloud already panel earlier, we talked about how companies are going fast on one native cloud, 'cause they don't want to have multiple development teams and different ops teams. They go all in say, hey, mostly AWS wins this, unless it's specially Azure productivity software or SQL database, go hard in on Amazon, get speed and velocity, get that flywheel, win, get scale, get value. Then go to Azure, provide that same value to that marketplace and other clouds. Then the next dot to connect is, can the customer have the same experience across the clouds? That's where it gets interesting. What's your thoughts on that? >> Actually, it gets interesting even when they go from a single cloud in a single region to multiple regions, right? And the, the more spread out the regions are, you have requirements around application performance, application experience and so forth. So, suddenly the networking conversation starts to become an experience and a performance conversation. The security conversation starts to become a zero trust conversation and so forth. And so you, you do see that, that interesting shift that's happening. >> Of course. >> Exactly. And then that gets worsened by the fact that now you have multiple clouds, multiple regions, and then... >> So you got regions, clouds, >> and then you have edge locations now. >> And edge. >> You mentioned edge. >> This, this is why I think multi-cloud is BS, because this is all coming so fast. You got to get your Supercloud first. >> Exactly. >> Then you extend into, what it looks like a multi-vendor or multifaceted environment that should be automated by that time. >> Exactly. >> So it's evolutionary, we're not there yet. >> Exactly. >> So you agree, no market yet? >> That's right, yes. So unless it's like the super large enterprises where we have seen a really good mix of multiple different clouds or super large enterprises where each business unit is free to choose the cloud of their choice for the application developers because they just like a certain cloud, right? >> Or negotiations. >> Or negotiations, right? Exactly, so there you find yourself in a healthy mix. It's not like you're 80, 10, 10. It's, it's a healthy mix of three different clouds, right? But vast majority of the enterprises, they have a concerted strategy, I have a primary cloud 'cause that's where two, two big CEOs shake hands and assign multi billion dollar deals, right? >> It's just a song with Howie Shute, who's now a Zscaler, former VMware. Probably know Howie, he's a legend in the community as well. We were talking about the old days of the data center and you remember that? We'll go back to our, into our, you know, historical views of experience. Back when the data center became popular this was the glass house. Mainframes to mini computers. It became a complex environment. You had to have pretty much a PhD or serious networking or some sort of technical background. And then IT was born, the local area networks, the mini computers, and the PCs change that dynamic. IT was born. Okay, and let's just say it, most IT guys aren't PhDs. >> Exactly. >> So what's happened there is democratization and the operations side of that wave. We're kind of going th&rough it now, don't ya think, with cloud? Like, you got to be super smart to wrangle the data. I mean, some of the data pipelining stuff is super complex, after Snowflake and data bricks. >> Absolutely. And largely depends on the maturity, right? Like, so once you pass a certain scale in the cloud the care abouts start to be very different. The care abouts are, how can I operate this at scale? Because I might have started off with a relatively inefficient infrastructure, right? But now if I start to operate that at scale with like thousands of VPCs and so forth, somebody is looking at an AWS bill there and going, "ah, no, no, no, we're not going to do that." >> We're getting to the good part now. So, so here's where I wanted to get to, 'Cause we're kind of getting there, The proof points of Supercloud is IT like operations, >> Correct. >> Easy. >> Yep. >> Not overstaffed and maybe an SRE model one too many. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What are the proof points do you see that would be evidence that Supercloud is working? >> So in a well functional model where we have seen enterprises take the applications that they care about and then move that into the public cloud or build it organically. If they have staffed their team, I think a good leading indicator is that they have staffed the team so that there are a bunch of guys who understand what it means for cloud native capabilities. There are a bunch of guys who then put it together and then you look at the care abouts, right? Ultimately at the end of the day, the goal, if you go higher up in the layers, is it about application experience? Is it about kind of reducing the blast radius of my security? Is it about my data cleanliness and, and hygiene? You don't care about kind of how the pipelining works underneath the covers or how do I put a transit gateway and this and that together? No, that's not what you care about. You care about kind of the outcomes and, and- >> Palmer (unintelligible) that VMware, when he was there. You just say the hardened top, no one talks about what's in an Intel processor. I mean it's just works. >> Exactly, yeah. And it's what applications you build on top of that Intel processor that actually makes it more powerful, right? And so the first evidence I would say is kind of how is the team structured? The second evidence would be kind of what, what are the care abouts for the guys that are building these applications, right? Because even the application developers more than the application, they care about kind of, is it helping? Is it delivering on the experience? Is it being used the way it's supposed to? >> Is it value? >> Exactly, right? And those are not areas that the cloud providers are solely focused on, right? Like you don't see an AWS or an Azure dashboard show that particular thing for the entirety of the application, they'll tell you for the ATR services that you, that you use, here's the SLA for each one of these services. >> And that's where the customer has to build it. >> Exactly right. Now, does that give you the full picture? No, it doesn't. Somebody has to pull this together. Somebody has to aggregate this together and then make sense as to whether this is working or not, right? So whether you call it Supercloud, or whether you call it kind of the care abouts on top of the cloud native stuff, they're all the same. I'm glad you guys came up with a, with a name for this. And I think it's going to be here to stay. >> Well, thank you for sharing your expertise. You got a great background in this area and you got, I think you guys are right on the front wave of this new change. I think a little bit early, but that's good, but don't be too early. >> Yeah, exactly. No, and, and, and that's really important, right, John? So, you don't want to be too early. You certainly don't want to be too late, but at the same time, the pace at which things are evolving are fast enough that you, you will see. I think when, if we have this conversation even three months from now, it might be a very different conversation. >> Yeah, people want to go fast and they don't want to get stuck with a vendor. They made a bad choice that slows 'em down 'cause they got problems to solve, things to build. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Ramesh, thanks for coming on, Supercloud 22, we're breaking it all down. We're exposing it out to everyone. We're discussing it. We're going to challenge it. But ultimately it is a thing. Supercloud 22. Thanks for watching. >> Wonderful, thanks John. (light music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

(electronic music) >> Welcome back to our studios in Palo Alto, California. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with John Furrier, who is taking a quick break. You know, in one of the early examples that we used of so called super cloud was Snowflake. We called it a super data cloud. We had, really, a lot of fun with that. And we've started to evolve our thinking. Years ago, we said that data was going to form in the cloud around industries and ecosystems. And Benoit Dogeville is a many time guest of theCube. He's the co-founder and president of products at Snowflake. Benoit, thanks for spending some time with us, at Supercloud 22, good to see you. >> Thank you, thank you, Dave. >> So, you know, like I said, we've had some fun with this meme. But it really is, we heard on the previous panel, everybody's using Snowflake as an example. Somebody how builds on top of hyper scale infrastructure. You're not building your own data centers. And, so, are you building a super data cloud? >> We don't call it exactly that way. We don't like the super word, it's a bit dismissive. >> That's our term. >> About our friends, cloud provider friends. But we call it a data cloud. And the vision, really, for the data cloud is, indeed, it's a cloud which overlays the hyper scaler cloud. But there is a big difference, right? There are several ways to do this super cloud, as you name them. The way we picked is to create one single system, and that's very important, right? There are several ways, right. You can instantiate your solution in every region of the cloud and, you know, potentially that region could be AWS, that region could be GCP. So, you are, indeed, a multi-cloud solution. But Snowflake, we did it differently. We are really creating cloud regions, which are superimposed on top of the cloud provider region, infrastructure region. So, we are building our regions. But where it's very different is that each region of Snowflake is not one instantiation of our service. Our service is global, by nature. We can move data from one region to the other. When you land in Snowflake, you land into one region. But you can grow from there and you can, you know, exist in multiple cloud at the same time. And that's very important, right? It's not different instantiation of a system, it's one single instantiation which covers many cloud regions and many cloud provider. >> So, we used Snowflake as an example. And we're trying to understand what the salient aspects are of your data cloud, what we call super cloud. In fact, you've used the word instantiate. Kit Colbert, just earlier today, laid out, he said, there's sort of three levels. You can run it on one cloud and communicate with the other cloud, you can instantiate on the clouds, or you can have the same service running 24/7 across clouds, that's the hardest example. >> Yeah. >> The most mature. You just described, essentially, doing that. How do you enable that? What are the technical enablers? >> Yeah, so, as I said, first we start by building, you know, Snowflake regions, we have today 30 regions that span the world, so it's a world wide system, with many regions. But all these regions are connected together. They are meshed together with our technology, we name it Snow Grid, and that makes it hard because, you know, Azure region can talk to a WS region, or GCP regions, and as a user for our cloud, you don't see, really, these regional differences, that regions are in different potentially cloud. When you use Snowflake, you can exist, your presence as an organization can be in several regions, several clouds, if you want, geographic, both geographic and cloud provider. >> So, I can share data irrespective of the cloud. And I'm in the Snowflake data cloud, is that correct? I can do that today? >> Exactly, and that's very critical, right? What we wanted is to remove data silos. And when you insociate a system in one single region, and that system is locked in that region, you cannot communicate with other parts of the world, you are locking data in one region. Right, and we didn't want to do that. We wanted data to be distributed the way customer wants it to be distributed across the world. And potentially sharing data at world scales. >> Does that mean if I'm in one region and I want to run a query, if I'm in AWS in one region, and I want to run a query on data that happens to be in an Azure cloud, I can actually execute that? >> So, yes and no. The way we do it is very expensive to do that. Because, generally, if you want to join data which are in different region and different cloud, it's going to be very expensive because you need to move data every time you join it. So, the way we do it is that you replicate the subset of data that you want to access from one region from other region. So, you can create this data mesh, but data is replicated to make it very cheap and very performing too. >> And is the Snow Grid, does that have the metadata intelligence to actually? >> Yes, yes. >> Can you describe that a little? >> Yeah, Snow Grid is both a way to exchange metadata. So, each region of Snowflake knows about all the other regions of Snowflake. Every time we create a new region, the metadata is distributed over our data cloud, not only region knows all the region, but knows every organization that exists in our cloud, where this organization is, where data can be replicated by this organization. And then, of course, it's also used as a way to exchange data, right? So, you can exchange data by scale of data size. And I was just receiving an email from one of our customers who moved more than four petabytes of data, cross region, cross cloud providers in, you know, few days. And it's a lot of data, so it takes some time to move. But they were able to do that online, completely online, and switch over to the other region, which is very important also. >> So, one of the hardest parts about super cloud that I'm still trying to struggling through is the security model. Because you've got the cloud as your sort of first line of defense. And now we've got multiple clouds, with multiple first lines of defense, I've got a shared responsibility model across those clouds, I've got different tools in each of those clouds. Do you take care of that? Where do you pick up from the cloud providers? Do you abstract that security layer? Do you bring in partners? It's a very complicated. >> No, this is a great question. Security has always been the most important aspect of Snowflake sense day one, right? This is the question that every customer of ours has. You know, how can you guarantee the security of my data? And, so, we secure data really tightly in region. We have several layers of security. It starts by creating every data at rest. And that's very important. A lot of customers are not doing that, right? You hear of these attacks, for example, on cloud, where someone left their buckets. And then, you know, you can access the data because it's a non-encrypted. So, we are encrypting everything at rest. We are encrypting everything in transit. So, a region is very secure. Now, you know, from one region, you never access data from another region in Snowflake. That's why, also, we replicate data. Now the replication of that data across region, or the metadata, for that matter, is really our least secure, so Snow Grid ensures that everything is encrypted, everything is, we have multiple encryption keys, and it's stored in hardware secure modules, so, we bit Snow Grid such that it's secure and it allows very secure movement of data. >> Okay, so, I know we kind of, getting into the technology here a lot today, but because super cloud is the future, we actually have to have an architectural foundation on which to build. So, you mentioned a bucket, like an S3 bucket. Okay, that's storage, but you also, for instance, taking advantage of new semi-conductor technology. Like Graviton, as an example, that drives efficiency. You guys talk about how you pass that on to your customers. Even if it means less revenue for you, so, awesome, we love that, you'll make it up in volume. And, so. >> Exactly. >> How do you deal with the lowest common denominator problem? I was talking to somebody the other day and this individual brought up what I thought was a really good point. What if we, let's say, AWS, have the best, silicon. And we can run the fastest and the least expensive, and the lowest power. But another cloud provider hasn't caught up yet. How do you deal with that delta? Do you just take the best of and try to respect that? >> No, it's a great question. I mean, of course, our software is extracting all the cloud providers infrastructure so that when you run in one region, let's say AWS, or Azure, it doesn't make any difference, as far as the applications are concerned. And this abstraction, of course, is a lot of work. I mean, really, a lot of work. Because it needs to be secure, it needs to be performance, and every cloud, and it has to expose APIs which are uniform. And, you know, cloud providers, even though they have potentially the same concept, let's say block storage, APIs are completely different. The way these systems are secure, it's completely different. There errors that you can get. And the retry mechanism is very different from one cloud to the other. The performance is also different. We discovered that when we starting to port our software. And we had to completely rethink how to leverage block storage in that cloud versus that cloud, because just off performance too. And, so, we had, for example, to stripe data. So, all this work is work that you don't need as an application because our vision, really, is that application, which are running in our data cloud, can be abstracted for this difference. And we provide all the services, all the workload that this application need. Whether it's transactional access to data, analytical access to data, managing logs, managing metrics, all of this is abstracted too, so that they are not tied to one particular service of one cloud. And distributing this application across many region, many cloud, is very seamless. >> So, Snowflake has built, your team has built a true abstraction layer across those clouds that's available today? It's actually shipping? >> Yes, and we are still developing it. You know, transactional, Unistore, as we call it, was announced last summit. So, they are still, you know, work in progress. >> You're not done yet. >> But that's the vision, right? And that's important, because we talk about the infrastructure, right. You mention a lot about storage and compute. But it's not only that, right. When you think about application, they need to use the transactional database. They need to use an analytical system. They need to use machine learning. So, you need to provide, also, all these services which are consistent across all the cloud providers. >> So, let's talk developers. Because, you know, you think Snowpark, you guys announced a big application development push at the Snowflake summit recently. And we have said that a criterion of super cloud is a super paz layer, people wince when I say that, but okay, we're just going to go with it. But the point is, it's a purpose built application development layer, specific to your particular agenda, that supports your vision. >> Yes. >> Have you essentially built a purpose built paz layer? Or do you just take them off the shelf, standard paz, and cobble it together? >> No, we build it a custom build. Because, as you said, what exist in one cloud might not exist in another cloud provider, right. So, we have to build in this, all these components that a multi-application need. And that goes to machine learning, as I said, transactional analytical system, and the entire thing. So that it can run in isolation physically. >> And the objective is the developer experience will be identical across those clouds? >> Yes, the developers doesn't need to worry about cloud provider. And, actually, our system will have, we didn't talk about it, but a marketplace that we have, which allows, actually, to deliver. >> We're getting there. >> Yeah, okay. (both laughing) I won't divert. >> No, no, let's go there, because the other aspect of super cloud that we've talked about is the ecosystem. You have to enable an ecosystem to add incremental value, it's not the power of many versus the capabilities of one. So, talk about the challenges of doing that. Not just the business challenges but, again, I'm interested in the technical and architectural challenges. >> Yeah, yeah, so, it's really about, I mean, the way we enable our ecosystem and our partners to create value on top of our data cloud, is via the marketplace. Where you can put shared data on the marketplace. Provide listing on this marketplace, which are data sets. But it goes way beyond data. It's all the way to application. So, you can think of it as the iPhone. A little bit more, all right. Your iPhone is great. Not so much because the hardware is great, or because of the iOS, but because of all the applications that you have. And all these applications are not necessarily developed by Apple, basically. So, we are, it's the same model with our marketplace. We foresee an environment where providers and partners are going to build these applications. We call it native application. And we are going to help them distribute these applications across cloud, everywhere in the world, potentially. And they don't need to worry about that. They don't need to worry about how these applications are going to be instantiated. We are going to help them to monetize these applications. So, that unlocks, you know, really, all the partner ecosystem that you have seen, you know, with something like the iPhone, right? It has created so many new companies that have developed these applications. >> Your detractors have criticized you for being a walled garden. I've actually used that term. I used terms like defacto standard, which are maybe less sensitive to you, but, nonetheless, we've seen defacto standards actually deliver value. I've talked to Frank Slootman about this, and he said, Dave, we deliver value, that's what we're all about. At the same time, he even said to me, and I want your thoughts on this, is, look, we have to embrace open source where it makes sense. You guys announced Apache Iceberg. So, what are your thoughts on that? Is that to enable a developer ecosystem? Why did you do Iceberg? >> Yeah, Iceberg is very important. So, just to give some context, Iceberg is an open table format. >> Right. >> Which was first developed by Netflix. And Netflix put it open source in the Apache community. So, we embraced that open source standard because it's widely used by many companies. And, also, many companies have really invested a lot of effort in building big data, Hadoop Solutions, or DataX Solution, and they want to use Snowflake. And they couldn't really use Snowflake, because all their data were in open format. So, we are embracing Iceberg to help these companies move through the cloud. But why we have been reluctant with direct access to data, direct access to data is a little bit of a problem for us. And the reason is when you direct access to data, now you have direct access to storage. Now you have to understand, for example, the specificity of one cloud versus the other. So, as soon as you start to have direct access to data, you lose your cloud data sync layer. You don't access data with API. When you have direct access to data, it's very hard to sync your data. Because you need to grant access, direct access to tools which are not protected. And you see a lot of hacking of data because of that. So, direct access to data is not serving well our customers, and that's why we have been reluctant to do that. Because it is not cloud diagnostic. You have to code that, you need a lot of intelligence, why APIs access, so we want open APIs. That's, I guess, the way we embrace openness, is by open API versus you access, directly, data. >> iPhone. >> Yeah, yeah, iPhone, APIs, you know. We define a set of APIs because APIs, you know, the implementation of the APIs can change, can improve. You can improve compression of data, for example. If you open direct access to data now, you cannot evolve. >> My point is, you made a promise, from governed, security, data sharing ecosystem. It works the same way, so that's the path that you've chosen. Benoit Dogeville, thank you so much for coming on theCube and participating in Supercloud 22, really appreciate that. >> Thank you, Dave. It was a great pleasure. >> All right, keep it right there, we'll be right back with our next segment, right after this short break. (electronic music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to Supercloud 22, this is the cube studio's live performance. We streaming virtually@siliconangledotcomandthecube.net. I'm John for host the cube at Dave Alane with a distinguished panel talking about securing the Supercloud all cube alumni G written house was the CEO of Skyhigh security, Peter Sharma founder of, of QX sold to tenable and Tony qua who's investor. Co-founder former head of product at VMware chance. Thanks for coming on and to our, in all girls super cloud pilot event. >>Good to see you guys big topic. >>Okay. So before we get into secure in the cloud, one of the things that we were discussing before we came on camera was how cloud, the relationship between cloud and on premise and multi-cloud and how Supercloud fits into that. At the end of the day, security's driving a lot of the conversations at the op side and dev shift left is happening. We see that out there. So before we get into it, how do you guys see super cloud Tony? We'll start with you. We'll go down the line. What is Supercloud to you? >>Well, to me, super cloud is really the next evolution, the culmination of the services coming all together, right? As a application developer today, you really don't need to worry about where this thing is. Sit sitting or what's the latency cuz cuz the internet is fast enough. Now I really wanna know what services something provides. What, how do I get access to it now? Security. We'll talk about that later. That that becomes a, a big issue because of the fragmentation of how security is implemented across all the different vendors. So to me it's an IP address I program to it and you know, off we go, but there's a lot of >>You like that pipe happens >>Iceberg chart, right? Like I'm the developer touching the APIs up there. There's a bunch of other things. BU service. >>Okay. Looking forward again. Gee, what's your take? Obviously we've had many conversations on the cube. What's your super cloud update. >>Yeah, so I, I view it as just an extension of what we see today before like maybe 10 years ago we were mashing up applications built on other SAS applications and whatnot. Now we're just extending that down to further primitives, not, we don't really care where our mashup resides, what cloud platform, where it sits to Tony's point, as long as you have an IP address. But beyond that, we're just gonna start to get little micro services and deeper into the applications. >>BP, what should you take? >>I think, I think super cloud to me is something that don't don't exist. It exists only on my laptop. That's the super cloud means to me. I know it takes a lot behind the scene to get that working of and running. But, but essentially, essentially that the everything having be able to touch physically versus not being able to touch anything is super cloud to me. >>So we, what Victoria was saying. Yeah, we see serverless out there, all these cool things happening. Exactly. And you look at the, some of the successful companies that have come in, I call V two cloud. Some are, some are saying the next gen, they're all building on top of the CapEx. I mean, if, why would you not wanna leverage all that work AWS is doing and now Azure, and obviously Google's out there and you got other, other, other clouds out there. But in terms of AWS as a hyperscaler, they're spending all the money and they're getting better. They're getting lower level. We're talking about some of that yesterday, data bricks, snowflake, Goldman Sachs there's industry clouds that could be powerhouse service providers to themselves and their vertical. Then you got specialty clouds. Like there could be a data cloud, there could be an identity cloud. So yeah. How does this sort itself out? How do you guys see that? Because can they coexist? >>But I think they have to right, because I, I think, you know, eventually organizations will get big enough where they can be strong and really market leading in multiple segments. But if you think about what it takes to really build a massive scaled out database company that, that DNA doesn't just overnight translate to identity or translate to video, it takes years to build that up. So in the meantime, all these guys have to understand that they are one part of the service stack to power the next gen solutions. And if they don't play well with each other, then you're gonna have a problem. >>So security, I think is one of the hardest problems of, of super cloud. And not only do you have too many tools and a lack of talent, but you've now got this new first line of defense, which is the cloud. And the problem is you've got multiple clouds. So you've got multiple first lines of defense with multiple cloud provider tools. And then the CISO, I guess, is the next line of defense with the application development team. You know, there to be the pivot point between strategy and execution. And I guess audit is the third line of the defense. So it's an even more complicated environment. So gee, how do you see that CSO role changing and, and can there actually be a unified security layer in Supercloud? >>Yeah, so I believe that that they can be, the role is definitely changing because now a CSO actually has to have a basic understanding of how clouds work, the dependency of clouds on the, on the business that they serve. And, and this is to your point, not only do we have these new lines and opening up in a tax surface, but they're coupled together. So we have supply chain type connections between this. So there's a coherence across these systems that a CISO has to kind of think about not only these Bo cloud boundaries, but the trust boundaries between them. So classic example visibility, wh what, where are these things and what are the dependencies in my business then of course you mentioned compliance. Am I regulatory? And then of course protecting and responding to this, >>You know? Yeah. The, the, the supply chain piece that you just mentioned. I mean, I feel like there's like these milestones stocks, net was a milestone, you know, obvious obviously log four J was another one, the supply chain hack with solar winds. Yep. You know, it's just, the adversary just keeps getting stronger and stronger and, and, and more agile. So, so is this a data? Do we solve this as a data problem? Is it, you know, you can't just throw more infrastructure at it. What are your thoughts >>For it? I think, you know, great, great point that you're brought up. We need to look at things very fundamentally. What is happening is security has the most difficult job in the cloud, especially super cloud. The poor guys are managing some, managing something or securing something that they can't govern, right? Your, your custodian of the cloud as your developers and DevOps, they are the ones who are defining, creating, destroying things in the cloud. And that guy sitting at the end of the tunnel, looking at things that what he gets and he has to immediately respond. That's why it has to be fundamentally solve. Number one, we talked about supply chain. We talked about the, the, the stuck net to wanna cry, to sort of wins, to know the most recent one on the pipeline. Once the interesting phenomena is that the way industry has moved super cloud, the attackers are also moving them super attackers, right? They have stopped. They have not stopped, but they have started slowly moving to the left, which is the governance part. So they have started attacking your source code, you know, impersonating the codes, replacing the binary, finding one is there. So if they can, if the cloud is built so early, why can't I go early and, and, and inject myself. >>So super hackers is coming to super thinking Hollywood right now. I mean, that brings up a good point. I mean, this whole trust thing is huge. I mean, I hear zero trust. I think, wait a minute, that's not the conference I was just at, we went to, we managed, we work with DockerCon and they were talking about trust services. Yeah. So supply chain source code has trust brokering going on. And yet you got zero trust, which is which are they contextually different? I mean, what, what, >>What, from my perspective, though, the same in that zero trust is a framework that starts with minimum privileges and then build up those privileges over time. Normally in today's dialogue, zero trust is around access. I'm not having a broad access. I'm having a narrow access around an application, but you can also extend those principles to usage. What can, how much privilege do I have within an application? I have to build up my trust to enhance and, and get extended privileges within an application. Of course you can then extend this naturally to applications, APIs, applications, talking with each other. And so by you, you have to restrict the attack surface that is based on a trust model fundamentally. And then to your point, I mean, there's always this residual that you have to deal with afterwards. >>So, so super cloud implies more surface area. You're talking about private. So here we go. So how, and by the way, the AWS was supposed to be at this conference. They said they couldn't make it. They had a schedule issue, but they wanted to be here, but I would ask them, how do you differentiate AWS going forward? Do you go IAS all the way? Do you release the pass layer up? How does this solve? Because you have native clouds that are doing great, the complexity on super cloud, and multi-cloud has to be solved. >>Let me offer maybe a different argument. So if you think about we're all old enough to see the history sort of re pendulum shift and it shifting back in a way, if you're arguing that this culmination of all these services in the form of cloud today, essentially moving up stack, then really this is a architectural pattern that's emerging, right? And therefore there needs to be a super cloud, almost operating system. So operating systems, if you build one before you need a scheduler, you need process handler, you need process isolation, you need memory storage, compute all that together. Now that is our sitting in different parts of the internet. And, and there is no operating system. Yes. And that's the gap, right? And so if you don't even have an operating system, how do you implement security? And that's the pain. Yeah, because today it's one off, directly from service to service. Like how many times can you set up SAML orchestration? You can have an entire team doing that, right. If that's, that's what you have to do. So I think that's ultimately the gap and, and we're sort of just revolving around this concept that there's missing an operating system for superpower. >>It's like Maribel Lopez said in the previous panel that Lord of the rings, there will be no one ring rule the ball. Right. Probably there is needs one. Oh yeah. But, but, but, so what happens? So again, security's the hardest problem. So Snowflake's gotta implement its security, you know, data bricks with an open source model has to implement its security. So there's these multiple security models. You talk about zero trust, which I, if, if I infer what you said, gee, it's essentially, if you don't have privilege access, you don't get access. Yeah. Right. If you, okay. Okay. So that's the framework. Fine. And then you gotta earn it over time. Yeah. Now companies like Amazon, they have the, the talent and the skills to implement that zero trust framework. Exactly. So, so the, the industry, you, you guys with the R and D have to actually ultimately build that, that super cloud framework, don't you? >>Yeah. But I would just look all of the major cloud providers, the ones you mentioned and more will have their own framework within their own environment. Right? Yeah. The problem is with super cloud, you're extending it across multiple ones. There's no standards. There's no easy way to integrate that. So now all of that is left to the developer who is like throwing out code as fast as they can >>Is their, their job is to abstract that, I mean, they've gotta secure the, the run time, they gotta secure the container. >>You have to >>Abstract it. Right. Okay. But, but they're not security pros or ops. >>Exactly. They're haves. >>But to, but to G's point, right. If everyone's implementing their own little Z TNA, then inherently, there's a blind trust between two vendors. Right. That has to >>Be, >>That has to be >>Established. That's implicit. You're saying, >>Yeah. But, but it's, it's contractual, it's not technology. Right. Because I'm turning something out in my cloud, you're turning out something in your cloud that says we've got something, some token exchange, which gives us trust. But what happens if that breaks down and whatever happens to the third party comes in? I think that's the problem. >>Yeah. In fact, in fact, the, if I put the, you know, combine one of those commons, the zero trust was build, keeping identity authentication, then authorization in mind, right? Yeah. This needs to be extended because the zero test definition now probably go into integrity. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I authenticated. I worked well with Tony in the past, but how do I know that something has changed on the Tony's side? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. That, that integrity is going to be very, very foundational. Given developers are building those third party libraries, those source code pumping stuff. The only way I can validate is, Hey, what has changed? >>And then throw edge into the equation, John and IOT and machine to machine. Exactly. It's just, >>Well, >>Yeah. I think, I think we have another example to build on Tony's operating system model. Okay. And that is the cloud access service broker model for SAS. So we, we have these services sitting out there, we've brokered them together. They're normally on user policies. What I can have access to what I can do, what I can't do, but that can be extended down to services and have the same kind of broker arrangement all through APIs. You have to establish that trust and the, and the policies there, and they can be dynamic and all of this stuff. But you can from an, either an operating system or a SAS interaction and integration model come to these same kind of points. So who >>Builds the, the, the secure Supercloud? Is it new guys like you? Is it your old company giants like Palo Alto? Who, who actually builds the and secures the Supercloud it sounds like it's an ecosystem. >>Yeah. It is an ecosystem. Absolutely. It's an ecosystem. >>Yeah. There's no one security Supercloud >>As well. No, but I, I do think there's one, there's one difference in that historically security has always focused on that shiny object. The, the, the, a particular solution to a particular threat when you're dealing with a, a cloud or super cloud, like the number of that is incalculable. So you have to come into some sort of platform. And so you will see if it's not one, you know, a finite number of platform type solutions that are trying to solve this on behalf of the >>Customer. That to your point, then get connected. >>I think it's gonna be like Unix, right? Like how many flavors of Unix were there out there? All of them 'em had a scheduler. All of them had these processes. All of them had their little compilers. You can compile to that system, target to that system. And for a while, it's gonna be very fragmented until multiple parties decide to converge. >>Right? Well, this is, this is the final question we have one minute left. I wish we had more time. This is a great panel. We'll we'll bring you guys back for sure. After the event, what one thing needs to happen to unify or get through the other side of this fragmentation than the challenges for Supercloud. Because remember the enterprise equation is solve complexity with more complexity. Well, that's not what the market wants. They want simplicity. They want SA they want ease of use. They want infrastructure risk code. What has to happen? What do you think each of you? >>So I, I can start and extending to the previous conversation. I think we need a consortium. We need, we need a framework that defines that if you really want to operate in super cloud, these are the 10 things that you must follow. It doesn't matter whether you take AWS slash or GCP, or you have all, and you will have the on-prem also, which means that it has to follow a pattern. And that pattern is what is required for super cloud. In my opinion, otherwise security is going everywhere. They're like they have to fix everything, find everything and so on. So forth, it's not gonna be possible. So they need a, they need a framework. They need a consortium. And it, this consortium needs to be, I think, needs to led by the cloud providers, because they're the ones who have these foundational infrastructure elements and the security vendor should contribute on providing more severe detections or findings. So that's, in my opinion is, should be the model. >>Well, thank you G >>Yeah, I would think it's more along the lines of a business model we've seen in cloud that the scale matters. And once you're big, you get bigger. We haven't seen that coals around either a vendor, a business model, whatnot, to bring all of this and connect it all together yet. So that value proposition in the industry I think is missing, but there's elements of it already available. >>I, I think there needs to be a mindset. If you look again, history repeating itself, the internet sort of came together around set of I ETF, RSC standards, everybody embraced and extended it. Right. But still there was at least a baseline. Yeah. And I think at that time, the, the largest and most innovative vendors understood that they couldn't do it by themselves. Right. And so I think what we need is a mindset where these big guys like Google, let's take an example. They're not gonna win at all, but they can have a substantial share. So how do they collaborate with the ecosystem around a set of standards so that they can bring, bring their differentiation and then embrace everybody >>Together. Guys, this has been fantastic. I mean, I would just chime in back in the day, those was proprietary nosis proprietary network protocols. You had kind of an enemy to rally around. I'm not sure. I see an enemy out here right now. So the clouds are doing great. Right? So it's a tough one, but I think super OS super consortiums, super business models are gonna emerge. Thanks so much for spending the time. Great conversation. Thank you for having us to bring, keep going hour superclouds here in Palo Alto, live coverage stream virtually I'm John with Dave. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage. This break.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to super cloud 22 here in our live studio performance. You're on stage in Palo Alto. I'm Sean fur. You're host with the queue with Dave ante. My co it's got a great industry ecosystem panel to discuss whether it's realer hype, David MC Janet CEO of Hashi Corp, hugely successful company as will LA forest field CTO, Colu and Victoria over yourgo from VMware guys. Thanks for coming on the queue. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us. So realer, hype, super cloud David. >>Well, I think it depends on the definition. >>Okay. How do you define super cloud start there? So I think we have a, >>I think we have a, like an inherently pragmatic view of super cloud of the idea of super cloud as you talk about it, which is, you know, for those of us that have been in the infrastructure world for a long time, we know there are really only six or seven categories of infrastructure. There's sort of the infrastructure security, networking databases, middleware, and, and, and, and really the message queuing aspects. And I think our view is that if the steady state of the world is multi-cloud, what you've seen is sort of some modicum of standardization across those different elements, you know, take, you know, take confluent. You know, I, I worked in the middleware world years ago, MQ series, and typical multicast was how you did message queuing. Well, you don't do that anymore. All the different cloud providers have their own message, queuing tech, there's, Google pub sub, and the equivalents across the different, different clouds. Kafka has provided a consistent way to do that. And they're not trying to project that. You can run everything connected. They're saying, Hey, you should standardize on Kafka for message cuing is that way you can have operational consistency. So I think to me, that's more how we think about it is sort of, there is sort of layer by layer of sort of de facto standardization for the lingo Franco. >>So a streaming super cloud is how you would think of it, or no, I just, or a component of >>Cloud that could be a super cloud. >>I just, I just think that there are like, if I'm gonna build an application message, queuing is gonna be a necessary element of it. I'm gonna use Kafka, not, you know, a native pub sub engine on one of the clouds, because operationally that's just the only way I can do it. So I think that's more, our view's much more pragmatic rather than trying to create like a single platform that you can run everywhere and deal with the networking realities of like network, you know, hops missing across those different worlds and have that be our responsibility. It's much more around, Hey, let's standardize each layer, operational >>Standardized layer that you can use to build a super cloud if that's in your, your intent or, yeah. Okay. >>And it reminds me of the web services days. You kind of go throwback there. I mean, we're kind of living the next gen of web services, the dream of that next level, because DevOps dev SecOps now is now gone mainstream. That's the big challenge we're hearing devs are doing great. Yep. But the ops teams and screen, they gotta go faster. This seems to be a core, I won't say blocker, but more of a drag to the innovation. >>Well, I I'll just get off, I'll hand it off to, to you guys. But I think the idea that like, you know, if I'm gonna have an app that's running on Amazon that needs to connect to a database that's running on, on the private data center, that's essentially the SOA notion, you know, w large that we're all trying to solve 20 years ago, but is much more complicated because you're brokering different identity models, different networking models. They're just much more complex. So that's where the ops bit is the constraint, you know, for me to build that app, not that complicated for the ops person to let it see traffic is another thing altogether. I think that's, that's the break point for so much of what looks easier to a developer is the operational reality of how you do that. And the good news is those are actually really well solved problems. They're just not broadly understood. >>Well, what's your take, you talk to customers all the time, field CTO, confluent, really doing well, streaming data. I mean, everyone's doing it now. They have to, yeah. These are new things that pop up that need solutions. You guys step up and doing more. What's your take on super cloud? >>Well, I mean, the way we address it honestly is we don't, it's gonna be honest. We don't think about super cloud much less is the fact that SAS is really being pushed down. Like if we rely on seven years ago and you took a look at SAS, like it was obvious if you were gonna build a product for an end consumer or business user, you'd do SAS. You'd be crazy not to. Right. But seven years ago, if you look at your average software company producing something for a developer that people building those apps, chances are you had an open source model. Yeah. Or, you know, self-managed, I think with the success of a lot of the companies that are here today, you know, snowflake data, bricks, Colu, it's, it's obvious that SaaS is the way to deliver software to the developers as well. And as such, because our product is provided that way to the developers across the clouds. That's, that's how they have a unifying data layer, right. They don't necessarily, you know, developers like many people don't necessarily wanna deal with the infrastructure. They just wanna consume cloud data services. Right. So that's how we help our customers span cloud. >>So we evenly that SAS was gonna be either built on a single cloud or in the case of service. Now they built their own cloud. Right. So increasingly we're seeing opportunities to build a Salesforce as well across clouds tap different, different, different services. So, so how does that evolve? Do you, some clouds have, you know, better capabilities in other clouds. So how does that all get sort of adjudicated, do you, do you devolve to the lowest common denominator? Or can you take the best of all of each? >>The whole point to that I think is that when you move from the business user and the personal consumer to the developer, you, you can no longer be on a cloud, right. There has to be locality to where applications are being developed. So we can't just deploy on a single cloud and have people send their data to that cloud. We have to be where the developer is. And our job is to make the most of each, an individual cloud to provide the same experience to them. Right. So yes, we're using the capabilities of each cloud, but we're hiding that to the developer. They don't shouldn't need to know or care. Right. >>Okay. And you're hiding that with the abstraction layer. We talked about this before Victoria, and that, that layer has what, some intelligence that has metadata knowledge that can adjudicate what, what, the best, where the best, you know, service is, or function of latency or data sovereignty. How do you see that? >>Well, I think as the, you need to instrument these applications so that you, you, you can get that data and then make the intelligent decision of where, where, where this, the deploy application. I think what Dave said is, is right. You know, the level of super cloud that they talking about is the standardization across messaging. And, and are you what's happening within the application, right? So you don't, you are not too dependent on the underlying, but then the application say that it takes the form of a, of a microservice, right. And you deploy that. There has to be a way for operator to say, okay, I see all these microservices running across clouds, and I can factor out how they're performing, how I, I, life lifecycle managed and all that. And so I think there is, there is, to me, there's the next level of the super cloud is how you factor this out. So an operator can actually keep up with the developers and make sense of all that and manage it. Like >>You guys that's time. Like its also like that's what Datadog does. So Datadog basically in allows you to instrument all those services, on-prem private data center, you know, all the different clouds to have a consistent view. I think that that's not a good example of a vendor that's created a, a sort of a level of standardization across a layer. And I think that's, that's more how we think about it. I think the notion of like a developer building an application, they can deploy and not have to worry where it exists. Yeah. Is more of a PAs kind of construct, you know, things like cloud Foundry have done a great job of, of doing that. But underneath that there's still infrastructure. There's still security. There's still networking underneath it. And I think that's where, you know, things like confluent and perhaps at the infrastructure layer have standardized, but >>You have off the shelf PAs, if I can call it that. Yeah. Kind of plain. And then, and then you have PAs and I think about, you mentioned snowflake, snowflake is with snow park, seems to be developing a PAs layer that's purpose built for their specific purpose of sharing data and governing data across multiple clouds call super paths. Is, is that a prerequisite of a super cloud you're building blocks. I'm hearing yeah. For super cloud. Is that a prerequisite for super cloud? That's different than PAs of 10 years ago. No, but I, >>But I think this is, there's just different layers. So it's like, I don't know how that the, the snowflake offering is built built, but I would guess it's probably built on Terraform and vault and cons underneath it. Cuz those are the ingredients with respect to how you would build a composite application that runs across multiple. And >>That's how Oracle that town that's how Oracle with the Microsoft announcement. They just, they just made if you saw that that was built on Terraform. Right. But, but they would claim that they, they did some special things within their past that were purpose built for, for sure. Low latency, for example, they're not gonna build that on, you know, open shift as an, as an example, they're gonna, you know, do their own little, you know, >>For sure, for sure. So I think what you're, you're pointing at and what Victoria was talking about is, Hey, can a vendor provided consistent experience across the application layer across these multiple clouds? And I would say, sure, just like, you know, you might build a mobile banking application that has a front end on Amazon in the back end running on vSphere on your private data center. Sure. But the ingredients you use to do that have to be, they can't be the cloud native aspects for how you do that. How do you think about, you know, the connectivity of, of like networking between that thing to this thing? Is it different on Amazon? Is it different on Azure? Is it different on, on Google? And so the, the, the, the companies that we all serve, that's what they're building, they're building composited applications. Snowflake is just an example of a company that we serve this building >>Composite. And, but, but, but don't those don't, you have to hide the complexity of that, those, those cloud native primitives that's your job, right. Is to actually it creates simplicity across clouds. Is it not? >>Why? Go ahead. You. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean that in fact is what we're doing for developers that need to do event streaming, right. That need to process this data in real time. Now we're, we're doing the sort of things that Victoria was just talking about, like underneath the covers, of course, you know, we're using Kubernetes and we're managing the differences between the clouds, but we're hiding the, that, and we've become sort of a defacto standard across the cloud. So if I'm developing an app in any of those cloud, and I think we all know, and you were mentioning earlier every significant company's multi-cloud now all the large enterprises, I just got back from Brazil and like every single one of 'em have multiple clouds and on-prem right. So they need something that can span those. >>What's the challenge there. If you talk to those customers, because we're seeing the same thing, they have multiple clouds. Yeah. But it was kind of by default or they had some use case, either.net developers there with Azure, they'll do whatever cloud. And it kind of seems specialty relative to the cloud native that they're on what problems do they have because the complexity to run infrastructure risk code across clouds is hard. Right? So the trade up between native cloud and have better integration to complexity of multiple clouds seems to be a topic around super cloud. What are you seeing for, for issues that they might have or concerns? >>Yeah. I mean, honestly it is, it is hard to actually, so here's the thing that I think is kind of interesting though, by the way, is that I, I think we tend to, you know, if you're, if you're from a technical background, you tend to think of multicloud as a problem for the it organization. Like how do we solve this? How do we save money? But actually it's a business problem now, too, because every single one of these companies that have multiple clouds, they want to integrate their data, their products across these, and it it's inhibiting their innovation. It's hard to do, but that's where something like, you know, Hatchie Corp comes in right. Is to help solve that. So you can instrument it. It has to happen at each of these layers. And I suppose if it does happen at every single layer, then voila, we organically have something that amounts to Supercloud. Right. >>I love how you guys are representing each other's firms. And, but, but, and they also correct me if I'm a very similar, your customers want to, it is very similar, but your customers want to monetize, right. They want bring their tools, their software, their particular IP and their data and create, you know, every, every company's a software company, as you know, Andreesen says every company's becoming a cloud company to, to monetize in, in the future. Is that, is that a reasonable premise of super cloud? >>Yeah. I think, think everyone's trying to build composite applications to, to generate revenue. Like that's, that's why they're building applications. So yeah. One, 100%. I'm just gonna make it point cuz we see it as well. Like it's actually quite different by geography weirdly. So if you go to like different geographies, you see actually different cloud providers, more represented than others. So like in north America, Amazon's pretty dominant Japan. Amazon's pretty dominant. You go to Southeast Asia actually. It's not necessarily that way. Like it might be Google for, for whatever reason more hourly Bob. So this notion of multi's just the reality of one's everybody's dealing with. But yeah, I think everyone, everyone goes through the same process. What we've observed, they kind of go, there's like there's cloud V one and there's cloud V two. Yeah. Cloud V one is sort of the very tactical let's go build something on cloud cloud V two is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I have some stuff on Amazon, some stuff on Azure, some stuff on, on vSphere and I need some operational consistency. How do I think about zero trust across that way in a consistent way. And that's where this conversation comes into being. It's sort of, it's not like the first version of cloud it's actually when people step back and say, Hey, Hey, I wanna build composite applications to monetize. How am I gonna do that in an industrialized way? And that's the problem that you were for. It's >>Not, it's not as, it's not a no brainer like it was with cloud, go to the cloud, write an app. You're good here. It's architectural systems thinking, you gotta think about regions. What's the latency, you know, >>It's step back and go. Like, how are we gonna do this, this exactly. Like it's wanted to do one app, but how we do this at scale >>Zero trust is a great example. I mean, Amazon kind of had, was forced to get into the zero trust, you know, discussion that, that wasn't, you know, even a term that they used and now sort of, they're starting to talk about it, but within their domain. And so how do you do zero trust trust across cost to your point? >>I, I wonder if we're limiting our conversation too much to the, the very technical set of developers, cuz I'm thinking back at again, my example of C plus plus libraries C plus plus libraries makes it easier. And then visual BA visual basic. Right. And right now we don't have enough developers to build the software that we want to build. And so I want, and we are like now debating, oh, can we, do we hide that AI API from Google versus that SQL server API from, from Microsoft. I wonder at some point who cares? Right. You know, we, I think if we want to get really economy scale, we need to get to a level of abstraction for developers that really allows them to say, I don't need, for most of most of the procedural application that I need to build as a developer, as a, as a procedural developer, I don't care about this. Some, some propeller had, has done that for me. I just like plug it in my ID and, and I use it. And so I don't, I don't know how far we are from that, but if we don't get to that level, it fits me that we never gonna get really the, the economy or the cost of building application to the level. >>I was gonna ask you in the previous segment about low code, no code expanding the number of developers out there and you talking about propel heads. That's, that's what you guys all do. Yeah. You're the technical geniuses, right. To solve that problem so that, so you can have low code development is that I >>Don't think we have the right here. Cause I, we, we are still, you know, trying to solve that problem at that level. But, but >>That problem has to be solved first, right before we can address what you're talking about. >>Yeah. I, I worked very closely with one of my biggest mentors was Adam Bosworth that built, you know, all the APIs for visual basics and, and the SQL API to visual basic and all that stuff. And he always was on that front. In fact that his last job was at my, at AWS building that no code environment. So I'm a little detached from that. It just hit me as we were discussing this. It's like, maybe we're just like >>Creating, but I would, I would argue that you kind of gotta separate the two layers. So you think about the application platform layer that a developer interfaces to, you know, Victoria and I worked together years ago and one of the products we created was cloud Foundry, right? So this is the idea of like just, you know, CF push, just push this app artifact and I don't care. That's how you get the developer community written large to adopt something complicated by hiding all the complexity. And I think that that is one model. Yeah. Turns out Kubernetes is actually become a peer to that and perhaps become more popular. And that's what folks like Tanza are trying to do. But there's another layer underneath that, which is the infrastructure that supports it. Right? Yeah. Cause that's only needs to run on something. And I think that's, that's the separation we have to do. Yes. We're talking a little bit about the plumbing, but you know, we just easily be talking about the app layer. You need, both of them. Our point of view is you need to standardize at this layer just like you need standardize at this layer. >>Well, this is, this is infrastructure. This is DevOps V two >>Dev >>Ops. Yeah. And this is where I think the ops piece with open source, I would argue that open source is blooming more than ever. So I think there's plenty of developers coming. The automation question becomes interesting because I think what we're seeing is shift left is proving that there's app developers out there that wanna stay in their pipelining. They don't want to get in under the hood. They just want infrastructure as code, but then you got supply chain software issues there. We talked about the Docker on big time. So developers at the top, I think are gonna be fine. The question is what's the blocker. What's holding them back. And I don't see the devs piece Victoria as much. What do you guys think? Is it, is the, is the blocker ops or is it the developer experience? That's the blocker. >>It's both. There are enough people truthfully. >>That's true. Yeah. I mean, I think I sort of view the developer as sort of the engine of the digital innovation. So, you know, if you talk about creative destruction, that's, that was the economic equivalent of softwares, eating the world. The developers are the ones that are doing that innovation. It's absolutely essential that you make it super easy for them to consume. Right. So I think, you know, they're nerds, they want to deal with infrastructure to some degree, but I think they understand the value of getting a bag of Legos that they can construct something new around. And I think that's the key because honestly, I mean, no code may help for some things. Maybe I'm just old >>School, >>But I, I went through this before with like Delphy and there were some other ones and, and I hated it. Like I just wanted a code. Yeah. Right. So I think making them more efficient is, is absolutely good. >>But I think what, where you're going with that question is that the, the developers, they tend to stay ahead. They, they just, they're just gear, you know, wired that way. Right. So I think right now where there is a big bottleneck in developers, I think the operation team needs to catch up. Cuz I, I talk to these, these, these people like our customers all the time and I see them still stuck in the old world. Right. Gimme a bunch of VMs and I'll, I know how to manage well that world, you know, although as lag is gonna be there forever, so managing mainframe. But so if they, the world is all about microservices and containers and if the operation team doesn't get on top of it and the security team that then that they're gonna be a bottleneck. >>Okay. I want to ask you guys if the, if the companies can get through that knothole of having their ops teams and the dev teams work well together, what's the benefits of a Supercloud. How do you see the, the outcome if you kind of architect it, right? You think the big picture you zoom as saying what's the end game look like for Supercloud? Is that >>What I would >>Say? Or what's the Nirvana >>To me Nirvana is that you don't care. You just don't don't care. You know, you just think when you running building application, let's go back to the on-prem days. You don't care if it runs on HP or Dell or, you know, I'm gonna make some enemies here with my old, old family, but you know, you don't really care, right. What you want is the application is up and running and people can use it. Right. And so I think that Nirvana is that, you know, there is some, some computing power out there, some pass layer that allows me to deploy, build application. And I just like build code and I deploy it and I get value at a reasonable cost. I think one of the things that the super cloud for as far as we're concerned is cost. How do you manage monitor the cost across all this cloud? >>Make sure that you don't, the economics don't get outta whack. Right? How many companies we know that have gone to the cloud only to realize that holy crap, now I, I got the bill and, and you know, I, as a vendor, when I was in my previous company, you know, we had a whole team figuring out how to lower our cost on the one hyperscaler that we were using. So these are, you know, the, once you have in the super cloud, you don't care just you, you, you go with the path of least the best economics is. >>So what about the open versus closed debate will you were mentioning that we had snowflake here and data bricks is both ends of the spectrum. Yeah. You guys are building open standards across clouds. Clearly even the CLO, the walled gardens are using O open standards, but historically de facto standards have emerged and solved these problems. So the super cloud as a defacto standard, versus what data bricks is trying to do super cloud kind of as an, as an open platform, what are you, what are your thoughts on that? Can you actually have an, an open set of standards that can be a super cloud for a specific purpose, or will it just be built on open source technologies? >>Well, I mean, I, I think open source continues to be an important part of innovation, but I will say from a business model perspective, like the days, like when we started off, we were an open source company. I think that's really done in my opinion, because if you wanna be successful nowadays, you need to provide a cloud native SAS oriented product. It doesn't matter. What's running underneath the covers could be commercial closed source, open source. They just wanna service and they want to use it quite frankly. Now it's nice to have open source cuz the developers can download it and run on their laptop. But I, I can imagine in 10 years time actually, and you see most companies that are in the cloud providing SAS, you know, free $500 credit, they may not even be doing that. They'll just, you know, go whatever cloud provider that their company is telling them to use. They'll spin up their SAS product, they'll start playing with it. And that's how adoption will grow. Right? >>Yeah. I, I think, I mean my personal view is that it's, that it's infrastructure is pervasive enough. It exists at the bottom of everything that the standards emerge out of open source in my view. And you think about how something like Terraform is built, just, just pick one of the layers there's Terraform core. And then there's a plugin for everything you integrate with all of those are open source. There are over 2000 of these. We don't build them. Right. That's and it's the same way that drove Linux standardization years ago, like someone had to build the drivers for every piece of hardware in the world. The market does not do that twice. The market does that once. And so I, I I'm deeply convicted that opensource is the only way that this works at the infrastructure layer, because everybody relies on it at the application layer, you may have different kinds of databases. You may have different kind of runtime environments. And that's just the nature of it. You can't to have two different ways of doing network, >>Right? Because the stakes are so high, basically. >>Yeah. Cuz there's, there's an infinite number of the surface areas are so large. So I actually worked in product development years ago for middleware. And the biggest challenge was how do you keep the adapter ecosystem up to date to integrate with everything in the world? And the only way to do it in our view is through open source. And I think that's a fundamental philosophical view that it we're just, you know, grounded in. I think when people are making infrastructure decisions that span 20 years at the customer base, this is what they think about. They go which standard it will emerge based on the model of the vendor. And I don't think my personal view is, is it's not possible to do in a, in >>A, do you think that's a defacto standard kind of psychological perspective or is there actual material work being done or both in >>There it's, it's, it's a network effect thing. Right? So, so, you know, before Google releases a new service service on Google cloud, as part of the release checklist is does it support Terraform? They do that work, not us. Why? Because every one of their customers uses Terraform to interface with them and that's how it works. So see, so the philosophical view of, of the customers, okay, what am I making a standardize on for this layer for the next 30 years? It's kind of a no brainer. Philosophically. >>I tend, >>I think the standards are organically created based upon adoption. I mean, for instance, Terraform, we have a provider we're again, we're at the data layer that we created for you. So like, I don't think there's a board out there. I mean there are that creating standards. I think those days are kind of done to be honest, >>The, the Terraform provider for vSphere has been downloaded five and a half million times this year. Yeah. Right. Like, so, I >>Mean, these are unifying moments. This are like the de facto standards are really important process in these structural changes. I think that's something that we're looking at here at Supercloud is what's next? What has to unify look what Kubernetes has done? I mean, that's essentially the easy thing to orchestra, but people get behind it. So I see this is a big part of this next, the two. Totally. What do you guys see that's needed? What's the rallying unification point? Is it the past layer? Is it more infrastructure? I guess that's the question we're trying to, >>I think every layer will need that open source or a major traction from one of the proprietary vendor. But I, I agree with David, it's gonna be open source for the most part, but you know, going back to the original question of the whole panel, if I may, if this is reality of hype, look at the roster of companies that are presenting or participating today, these are all companies that have some sort of multi-cloud cross cloud, super cloud play. They're either public have real revenue or about to go public. So the answer to the question. Yeah, it's real. Yeah. >>And so, and there's more too, we had couldn't fit him in, but we, >>We chose super cloud on purpose cuz it kind of fun, John and I kind came up with it and, and but, but do you think it's, it hurts the industry to have this, try to put forth this new term or is it helpful to actually try to push the industry to define this new term? Or should it just be multi-cloud 2.0, >>I mean, conceptually it's different than multi-cloud right. I mean, in my opinion, right? So in that, in that respect, it has value, right? Because it's talking about something greater than just multi-cloud everyone's got multi-cloud well, >>To me multi-cloud is the, the problem I should say the opportunity. Yeah. Super cloud or we call it cross cloud is the solution to that channel. Let's >>Not call again. And we're debating that we're debating that in our cloud already panel where we're talking about is multi-cloud a problem yet that needs to get solved or is it not yet ready for a market to your point? Is it, are we, are we in the front end of coming into the true problem set, >>Give you definitely answer to that. The answer is yes. If you look at the customers that are there, they won, they have gone through the euphoria phase. They're all like, holy something, what, what are we gonna do about this? Right. >>And, but they don't know what to do. >>Yeah. And the more advanced ones as the vendor look at the end of the day, markets are created by vendors that build ed that customers wanna buy. Yeah. Because they get value >>And it's nuance. David, we were sort talking about before, but Goldman Sachs has announced they're analysis software vendor, right? Capital one is a software vendor. I've been really interested Liberty what Cerner does with what Oracle does with Cerner and in terms of them becoming super cloud vendors and monetizing that to me is that is their digital transformation. Do you guys, do you guys see that in the customer base? Am I way too far out of my, of my skis there or >>I think it's two different things. I think, I think basically it's the idea of building applications. If they monetize yeah. There and Cerner's gonna build those. And you know, I think about like, you know, IOT companies that sell that sell or, or you think people that sell like, you know, thermostats, they sell an application that monetizes those thermostats. Some of that runs on Amazon. Some of that runs a private data center. So they're basically in composite applications and monetize monetizing them for the particular vertical. I think that's what we ation every day. That's what, >>Yeah. You can, you can argue. That's not, not anything new, but what's new is they're doing that on the cloud and taking across multiple clouds. Multiple. Exactly. That's what makes >>Edge. And I think what we all participate in is, Hey, in order to do that, you need to drive standardization of how you do provisioning, how you do networking, how you do security to underpin those applications. I think that's what we're all >>Talking about, guys. It's great stuff. And I really appreciate you taking the time outta your day to help us continue the conversation to put out in the open. We wanna keep it out in the open. So in the last minute we have left, let's go down the line from a hash core perspective, confluent and VMware. What's your position on super cloud? What's the outcome that you would like to see from your standpoint, going out five years, what's it look like they will start with you? >>I just think people like sort under understanding that there is a layer by layer of view of how to interact across cloud, to provide operational consistency and decomposing it that way. Thinking about that way is the best way to enable people to build and run apps. >>We wanna help our customers work with their data in real time, regardless of where they're on primer in the cloud and super cloud can enable them to build applications that do that more effectively. That's that's great for us >>For tour you. >>I, my Niana for us is customers don't care, just that's computing out there. And it's a, it's a, it's a tool that allows me to grow my business and we make it all, all the differences and all the, the challenges, you know, >>Disappear, dial up, compute utility infrastructure, ISN >>Code. I open up the thought there's this water coming out? Yeah, I don't care. I got how I got here. I don't wanna care. Well, >>Thank you guys so much and congratulations on all your success in the marketplace, both of you guys and VMware and your new journey, and it's gonna be great to watch. Thanks for participating. Really appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Okay. This is super cloud 22, our events, a pilot. We're gonna get it out there in the open. We're gonna get the data we're gonna share with everyone out in the open on Silicon angle.com in the cube.net. We'll be back with more live coverage here in Palo Alto. After this short break.

(bright music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 22. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE" with Dave Vellante, with the opening keynote conversation with Vittorio Viarengo. He's the Vice President of Cross-Cloud at VMware, Cube Alumni. Vittorio, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Ah, my pleasure. >> So you're kicking off the Supercloud event. Again, a pilot. Again, we were texting just a few months ago around some of the momentum. You identified this right away. You saw it, you saw the momentum. What's the reality around supercloud? What's your perspective? >> Well, I think that we have to go back to the history of IT, over the last ever. I feel like in IT, we're always running after the developers. The developers, they're smart. They go for the path of least resistance, and they create innovations, and then the entire stacks moves around, and if you look at developers over the last, you know, 15 years, they've been going to the cloud, right? And the reason they're going for the cloud is, you now, they say software is eating the world. Is really who builds software? Developers, so I think it's developers are eating the world, and so initially, there was one game in town, so they went with AWS, but eventually, we got the multiple clouds, and now, the reality is that the applications there, it's how we make money, how we save money. They're running on multiple cloud, the 75% of the companies running on multiple clouds today, and so, I think that creates the new computing platform for the next, you know, 10 years, 15 years, and I think that that multi-cloud world brings tremendous advantages, as we just talked, but also some challenges, and it's prime to a simplification, and that's where we're trying. >> One of the things we observe is this abstraction layer across clouds to create a consistent experience for customers, and very importantly, as you point out, developers. So when you think about the history of abstractions, we see another one sort of forming in the 2020s, which is really different, as you pointed out, that we had in the 2010s, where there was really, you know, one main cloud. Now, you have all these clouds. What are your thoughts on the history of abstractions? >> Well, if you look at IT, we always needed abstraction to unleash the next level of growth, right? I grew up as a... I started my career as a C++ developer. So initially, you know, on Windows, if you wanted to open a window on the screen, you had to write 200 lines of code. Then the MFC library came in, and now, you still have to be a C++ developer, but now, with a one line of code, you can initiate, open the yellow world and start to build your applications, but it's only when Visual Basic comes along, then now, we get five millions developers building applications that are 20 years later, we're still using, okay? And then the list goes on and on, and in the application integration, we used to look at the bytes on the bus and say, "Okay, this is the customers, and we're going to map it to SAP," and then we went one level higher with SOA and web services and the rest of history, and then unleashed tremendous, you know, growth and look at, you know, how we now, you know, we be able to throw APIs, integrate anything, and so then the ultimate example of abstraction is virtualization. We made all these different servers and networking and storage look like one, and now, you know, and the business never cares if you're running SAP back on-prem on HP or some other piece of hard drive. They care that it runs, right? And so I think that now, we need to bring a level of abstraction in the cloud that not only abstracts the low level APIs at the highest level, but also uniforms and unify the APIs and the way do management and security across multiple cloud. >> Let's unpack that because I think the virtualization angle is interesting 'cause with virtualization enabled AWS. If you look at AWS' success, virtualization, the Hypervisor, got them going, and that established that value. Now, the new structural change is happening. How do you define that specifically? What is supercloud in your mind? >> So in our mind, supercloud is a set of cloud native services that, first of all... Let's unpack that and go back to the virtualization. Virtualization was a great way to do it on-prem and is no wonder that AWS and Azure, they did it on their cloud, right? But the lingo franca of the cloud is not the virtualization layer. That's taken, it's hidden. It's down there, it just does its thing. The lingo franca of cloud is microservices, API, Kubernetes as the orchestration layer, and one would think, "Okay, now, we have Kubernetes, life is good. I just, you know, deploy on- Well, there are six, seven, eight Kubernetes distribution, and so to us, the supercloud is the ability to take, to factor out the common things that you can do across cloud and give you a single pane or glass to manage your application and single pipeline so you can build your application once and deploy it consistently across multiple clouds, and then, basically, factor out the other two important things with the security and observability of the application. >> One of the trade-offs of abstraction, you go back to the mainframe. They had to squeeze out the performance overheads. VMware had to do the same and done a tremendous job of it. So are we going to see that across clouds with multi-cloud or what we call supercloud. Are you going to see a trade-off? What trade-off do you see that the industry, technically, has to attack? >> Abstractions are always about trade-offs, right? You're trading off the speed. You know, I'm writing C++ code goes really fast for scale. You know, now, I have five million developers writing applications, but I think, eventually, what happens is that or you're trading off specialized skills for, you know, more valuable skills, and if I had a dollar every time I heard, "Oh, we cannot run Oracle Databases on virtualization," well, or the JVM is too slow, but guess what? How many Java developers, how many Java application are running out on the JVM? So I think, eventually, there will be trade-offs, but the technology catches up and it's a matter of like how much value are you getting in terms of scales and saving cost versus maybe the performance trade-off you were making on the lower level. >> On the evolution of hybrid cloud, 'cause right now, hybrid cloud is a steady state. People see that clearly, you know, on-premise and Edge, right around the corner. Public native cloud, there's benefits to be in the native cloud. How does multi-cloud fit? 'Cause by default, people have multiple clouds. If they run on Azure, they probably have some sort of productivity software with Microsoft or other Microsoft products, but it's best to breed. It's not yet connected. So multi-cloud has kind of become a default kind of thing. It's not yet a strategy in some people's minds, yet some people are thinking about it. So we think, and I think you might agree, that multi-cloud will happen, multiple clouds in the sense of workloads running seamlessly. Is that a pipe dream or is that near in our future? (men laugh) >> So there is a lot of unpack there. First of all, our definition of multi-cloud is that because most customers are operating their on-prem as the cloud, so the moment you have your on-prem cloud and AWS, your multi-cloud, so 75%, 85% going to 85%- >> You mean Private Cloud on-premise cloud operations? >> Yeah, and then you have another cloud, you're already multi-cloud. >> I'm assuming the experiences is identical, right? That's the assumption you- >> Well, initially, it's not identical, right? That's why you need a supercloud, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> And most customers though are in denial, meaning that I see them being in five stages of acceptance or adoption of the multi-cloud. One is denial. We are on-prem and maybe we have one cloud. We're standardized. The second one is euphoria. Oh, look, you know, look how fast we go. All these developers are happy to do whatever they want, and then the third one is like, holy crap. They got the first bill. They realize that the security share responsibility model to deal with. They realize that somebody is to deploy this application and manage the application. Nobody does it for them, and then they go into like, (indistinct). Okay, now, we need to do something about this, right? It's a new normal, and then you end up with the enlightment, right? Now, we're really being productive and strategic about how we use multi-cloud. Very, very few customers are in that stage. Most customers are still within the denial and the new normal, and within the spectrum, you see multi-cloud as, "Okay, I have an application here, an application there. Okay, great, big deal." The next level is, "Okay, I have an application here that uses a pieces of a service of an application over there. Okay, now, I'm coordinating application. I'm using microservices," and then the third stage is like, "Okay, I am designing my application to use multiple services or multiple cloud because each uses differentiated features of that particular cloud." >> Is it part of the problem too, Vittorio, that the industry, the technology industry, you guys have not caught up. The cloud vendors aren't solving that problem. What's VMware doing to solve that problem? >> So we have seen this coming four or five years ago, right? That's why we acquired Pivotal, and then we made a number of acquisition around it because we saw that... Well, let's go back. What is VMware DNA? If you look, I've been running engineering, product management in the company then I moved to the dark side, more on the marketing side, but I've seen, and I sweat with those engineers, and when I look at those engineers, these people know how to make stuff that was not designed to work together work together and deliver value, and so if we go back to, you know, on-prem, we did it with virtualization. In the cloud, we did a new level of abstraction, which is, you know, at the APIs at the... And so over the last five years, we built what we believe is very comprehensive portfolio that unified how you build, you run, manage, secure, and access any application across any cloud. No Hypervisor required. >> So that's the game changer right there. So let me ask you a question. How does the choice factor come in because can VMware do all this or do they need to rely on partners? Because most customers have HashiCorp and other companies in there doing services for them as well. So how do you see the multi-partner strategy approach? Can you do it alone or are you going to need help from the ecosystem? >> First of all, if you look at the success of your event today, look how many vendors from multiple backgrounds and multiple level of the stack that are coming together to talk about the supercloud. So that to me is success already, and, of course, there are tremendous companies that are going to deliver fantastic value for, you know, management like HashiCorp or security and the development experience. Our approach is to bring them together as an integrated platform, and I think VMware has both the DNA and the muscles, the investment to be able to pull that off. >> Okay, you saw Keith Townsend. He had that very cool blackboard, and he called, this was maybe eight or nine months ago, he called the supercloud and VMware's multi-cloud vision aspirational. When is this going to be real? >> I think it's absolutely real today in some of the pieces. Right, there's always an aspiration. You have to look at a company like VMware as a company that looks out five, 10 years, right? You know, we have Raghu as our CEO, you know, which is a technical visionary, and so he saw five years ago, the advent of multi-cloud, and we invested in first part of the stack. What is it? How to build applications natively in the cloud using Tanzu. So with Tanzu, you can build application, manage Kubernetes cluster, secure, creating this service match, and so that's the reality today. Then on the next step is security. We recently announced our security approach. We have a very peculiar position in the stack to be able to see security, not just on the endpoint, not just, you know, in the application, but in between, right? By looking at all the Hypervisor, if you're using Hypervisor. You looking at East-West traffic with NSX and cross cloud networks, and so these are the three main places that are in place today, right? And then I cannot spoil our user conference coming in a couple of weeks where we're going to make more announcement around the supercloud, which we called cross-cloud services. >> Vittorio, I remember in 2016, I interviewed Andy Jassy and Raghu when they announced the deal with VMware. VMware and AWS had the relationship, and you're running on the cloud on AWS VMware, and you look at what's happened since, and this is where the supercloud conversation starts to kick in where Amazon's really good at moving bits around and optimizing the power and the silicon of the infrastructure, which means that the higher level services are going to be much more open for people to innovate around. So Dave calls it, the super pass. This area platform is a service to change the SaaS game. So I have to ask you, how do you see the SaaS game changing with supercloud? Because if you have a Private Cloud or Edge, you're now multiple clouds, technically, as you pointed out. How has that changed the SaaS configuration? Because SaaS and IaaS and PaaS had great relationships in native clouds to solve problems. Now, you have the multi-cloud. How do you see this platform as a service area changing or maybe enabling? >> So I think that that's where the innovation, the ability to aggregate common... Because look, there is a reason why people use multiple cloud, right? They choose it because they have differentiated features. So we don't want to ever hide those features, like if you're using Google, because you need AI capabilities, absolutely. We don't want to prevent that, right? But at the PaaS level, you know, when you are orchestrated these microservices, you don't want to do it in five different ways, right? So those are the areas where I think are prime for aggregation and simplification. How you, you know, look at all this Kubernetes environment and being able to monitor your application and force security policies, both from a resource consumption, this group of developers can only use this many resources, but also a run time that you don't run out of like, you know, you get that bill shock, and so those are the areas where I think there's this more ability for us to innovate and deliver value, not at the lower level which is taken by the- >> So you try to have your cake and eat it too, which is if you can pull that off it's game over, right? You have a specific set of cross-cloud services that are unique and value added that are differentiable in the industry, but at the same time, you're trying to give access to developers, if in fact, they want access to those primitives, right? >> Yeah. >> That's a bold aspiration. >> Well, we want to have the cake, eat it, and lose weight. (men laugh) But seriously, I think, going back to your point about the ecosystem, of course, we're not going to do it alone, right? If we were doing it alone, there is not a market, right? And so I think that the market is so big and the area of challenges for IT is so large that there's room for many companies to add value, and I think that, as I said, our approach is to, you know, we're a platform company, right? So you're going to find tremendous companies that will solve one problem for multiple clouds. You're going to find the hyperscaler that have a platform approach for one cloud. We like to think that we can position ourself in that two by two as the company that has a platform approach across multiple clouds. >> You know, it's great. That's where we've known each other for a long time. It's 12 years of "CUBE" coverage. Watching things like the CNCF emerge and do great work, watching cloud native kind of go that next level's been fun to watch, and the developers have had a great run. I mean, open sources booming, developer goodness is out there. People are shifting left, a lot of great stuff going with containers and Kubernetes. So looking good on the developer experience front right now, and I think it's only going to get better, but developers don't think about locking. They just want to get the job done. Move on to the next line of code. It's the ops teams that we're hearing from that are saying, "Hey, we love this, too, but we got to align with the developer." Level up, so to speak. So ops and security teams are saying, "Hey, I got to run this with automation with the higher level services." So there seems to be a focus around the supercloud conversation around ops teams. This is your wheelhouse, VMware. You guys do a lot of IT operations and things of that nature. How do you see that and what's the message cross-cloud brings to and supercloud brings to the development teams and the ops teams who are really going to be doing DevOps together and/or faster? >> I think if you go back to what where we started, right? Developers run the show, and I think there's been a little bit of inertia in IT organization on the op side and the security side in catching up to see how to catch up to where developers are, right? And with the DevOps revolution, if operators don't really understand what the developers need and get ahead of that, they're going to be left behind. So I'll give you an example, like SMB Global, one of our customers, their band runs their operation. Basically, told me I had to sit down and figure out what these developers were doing because I was being left behind and then or Cerner, one of our partners and customers, same thing they say, okay, we sat down. We realized that we needed to get ahead of the developers and set those guard rails, right? These are the Kubernetes environment you want to use? Okay, this is how we're going to set them up. This is want to make sure that we shift left security, that we have a single pipeline that feeds that, and Cerner, using our technology was able to... They made a business decision to move from one hyperscaler, was going to go unnamed to another hyperscaler, It was going to go unnamed, and they managed to change all the deployments in four hours. So that's the power of the supercloud, being able to say, "Hey, developers, do whatever you want, but these are the guard rails, and we're going to be able to like stay ahead of you and give you the flexibility, but also, make sure that operation and security, as a saying." >> Shift left shield right, basically. >> Awesome, awesome stuff. We've got 15 seconds. What is supercloud? What's the bumper sticker? >> The supercloud is a level of abstraction across any of the public clouds that allows developers to go fast, operators to make sense of what's happening, security to enforce security, and end users to access any application with a great user experience and security. >> And it's inclusive of on-prem. I'll just throw that in. (John laughs) >> All right, great stuff. Thanks for coming on. We're going to have a industry panel to talk about and debate Supercloud 22. We'll be right back after this break.