>>When Oracle acquired my SQL via the Sun acquisition, nobody really thought the company would put much effort into the platform preferring to focus all the wood behind its leading Oracle database, Arrow pun intended. But two years ago, Oracle surprised many folks by announcing my SQL Heatwave a new database as a service with a massively parallel hybrid Columbia in Mary Mary architecture that brings together transactional and analytic data in a single platform. Welcome to our latest database, power panel on the cube. My name is Dave Ante, and today we're gonna discuss Oracle's MySQL Heat Wave with a who's who of cloud database industry analysts. Holgar Mueller is with Constellation Research. Mark Stammer is the Dragon Slayer and Wikibon contributor. And Ron Westfall is with Fu Chim Research. Gentlemen, welcome back to the Cube. Always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. >>So we've had a number of of deep dive interviews on the Cube with Nip and Aggarwal. You guys know him? He's a senior vice president of MySQL, Heatwave Development at Oracle. I think you just saw him at Oracle Cloud World and he's come on to describe this is gonna, I'll call it a shock and awe feature additions to to heatwave. You know, the company's clearly putting r and d into the platform and I think at at cloud world we saw like the fifth major release since 2020 when they first announced MySQL heat wave. So just listing a few, they, they got, they taken, brought in analytics machine learning, they got autopilot for machine learning, which is automation onto the basic o l TP functionality of the database. And it's been interesting to watch Oracle's converge database strategy. We've contrasted that amongst ourselves. Love to get your thoughts on Amazon's get the right tool for the right job approach. >>Are they gonna have to change that? You know, Amazon's got the specialized databases, it's just, you know, the both companies are doing well. It just shows there are a lot of ways to, to skin a cat cuz you see some traction in the market in, in both approaches. So today we're gonna focus on the latest heat wave announcements and we're gonna talk about multi-cloud with a native MySQL heat wave implementation, which is available on aws MySQL heat wave for Azure via the Oracle Microsoft interconnect. This kind of cool hybrid action that they got going. Sometimes we call it super cloud. And then we're gonna dive into my SQL Heatwave Lake house, which allows users to process and query data across MyQ databases as heatwave databases, as well as object stores. So, and then we've got, heatwave has been announced on AWS and, and, and Azure, they're available now and Lake House I believe is in beta and I think it's coming out the second half of next year. So again, all of our guests are fresh off of Oracle Cloud world in Las Vegas. So they got the latest scoop. Guys, I'm done talking. Let's get into it. Mark, maybe you could start us off, what's your opinion of my SQL Heatwaves competitive position? When you think about what AWS is doing, you know, Google is, you know, we heard Google Cloud next recently, we heard about all their data innovations. You got, obviously Azure's got a big portfolio, snowflakes doing well in the market. What's your take? >>Well, first let's look at it from the point of view that AWS is the market leader in cloud and cloud services. They own somewhere between 30 to 50% depending on who you read of the market. And then you have Azure as number two and after that it falls off. There's gcp, Google Cloud platform, which is further way down the list and then Oracle and IBM and Alibaba. So when you look at AWS and you and Azure saying, hey, these are the market leaders in the cloud, then you start looking at it and saying, if I am going to provide a service that competes with the service they have, if I can make it available in their cloud, it means that I can be more competitive. And if I'm compelling and compelling means at least twice the performance or functionality or both at half the price, I should be able to gain market share. >>And that's what Oracle's done. They've taken a superior product in my SQL heat wave, which is faster, lower cost does more for a lot less at the end of the day and they make it available to the users of those clouds. You avoid this little thing called egress fees, you avoid the issue of having to migrate from one cloud to another and suddenly you have a very compelling offer. So I look at what Oracle's doing with MyQ and it feels like, I'm gonna use a word term, a flanking maneuver to their competition. They're offering a better service on their platforms. >>All right, so thank you for that. Holger, we've seen this sort of cadence, I sort of referenced it up front a little bit and they sat on MySQL for a decade, then all of a sudden we see this rush of announcements. Why did it take so long? And and more importantly is Oracle, are they developing the right features that cloud database customers are looking for in your view? >>Yeah, great question, but first of all, in your interview you said it's the edit analytics, right? Analytics is kind of like a marketing buzzword. Reports can be analytics, right? The interesting thing, which they did, the first thing they, they, they crossed the chasm between OTP and all up, right? In the same database, right? So major engineering feed very much what customers want and it's all about creating Bellevue for customers, which, which I think is the part why they go into the multi-cloud and why they add these capabilities. And they certainly with the AI capabilities, it's kind of like getting it into an autonomous field, self-driving field now with the lake cost capabilities and meeting customers where they are, like Mark has talked about the e risk costs in the cloud. So that that's a significant advantage, creating value for customers and that's what at the end of the day matters. >>And I believe strongly that long term it's gonna be ones who create better value for customers who will get more of their money From that perspective, why then take them so long? I think it's a great question. I think largely he mentioned the gentleman Nial, it's largely to who leads a product. I used to build products too, so maybe I'm a little fooling myself here, but that made the difference in my view, right? So since he's been charged, he's been building things faster than the rest of the competition, than my SQL space, which in hindsight we thought was a hot and smoking innovation phase. It kind of like was a little self complacent when it comes to the traditional borders of where, where people think, where things are separated between OTP and ola or as an example of adjacent support, right? Structured documents, whereas unstructured documents or databases and all of that has been collapsed and brought together for building a more powerful database for customers. >>So I mean it's certainly, you know, when, when Oracle talks about the competitors, you know, the competitors are in the, I always say they're, if the Oracle talks about you and knows you're doing well, so they talk a lot about aws, talk a little bit about Snowflake, you know, sort of Google, they have partnerships with Azure, but, but in, so I'm presuming that the response in MySQL heatwave was really in, in response to what they were seeing from those big competitors. But then you had Maria DB coming out, you know, the day that that Oracle acquired Sun and, and launching and going after the MySQL base. So it's, I'm, I'm interested and we'll talk about this later and what you guys think AWS and Google and Azure and Snowflake and how they're gonna respond. But, but before I do that, Ron, I want to ask you, you, you, you can get, you know, pretty technical and you've probably seen the benchmarks. >>I know you have Oracle makes a big deal out of it, publishes its benchmarks, makes some transparent on on GI GitHub. Larry Ellison talked about this in his keynote at Cloud World. What are the benchmarks show in general? I mean, when you, when you're new to the market, you gotta have a story like Mark was saying, you gotta be two x you know, the performance at half the cost or you better be or you're not gonna get any market share. So, and, and you know, oftentimes companies don't publish market benchmarks when they're leading. They do it when they, they need to gain share. So what do you make of the benchmarks? Have their, any results that were surprising to you? Have, you know, they been challenged by the competitors. Is it just a bunch of kind of desperate bench marketing to make some noise in the market or you know, are they real? What's your view? >>Well, from my perspective, I think they have the validity. And to your point, I believe that when it comes to competitor responses, that has not really happened. Nobody has like pulled down the information that's on GitHub and said, Oh, here are our price performance results. And they counter oracles. In fact, I think part of the reason why that hasn't happened is that there's the risk if Oracle's coming out and saying, Hey, we can deliver 17 times better query performance using our capabilities versus say, Snowflake when it comes to, you know, the Lakehouse platform and Snowflake turns around and says it's actually only 15 times better during performance, that's not exactly an effective maneuver. And so I think this is really to oracle's credit and I think it's refreshing because these differentiators are significant. We're not talking, you know, like 1.2% differences. We're talking 17 fold differences, we're talking six fold differences depending on, you know, where the spotlight is being shined and so forth. >>And so I think this is actually something that is actually too good to believe initially at first blush. If I'm a cloud database decision maker, I really have to prioritize this. I really would know, pay a lot more attention to this. And that's why I posed the question to Oracle and others like, okay, if these differentiators are so significant, why isn't the needle moving a bit more? And it's for, you know, some of the usual reasons. One is really deep discounting coming from, you know, the other players that's really kind of, you know, marketing 1 0 1, this is something you need to do when there's a real competitive threat to keep, you know, a customer in your own customer base. Plus there is the usual fear and uncertainty about moving from one platform to another. But I think, you know, the traction, the momentum is, is shifting an Oracle's favor. I think we saw that in the Q1 efforts, for example, where Oracle cloud grew 44% and that it generated, you know, 4.8 billion and revenue if I recall correctly. And so, so all these are demonstrating that's Oracle is making, I think many of the right moves, publishing these figures for anybody to look at from their own perspective is something that is, I think, good for the market and I think it's just gonna continue to pay dividends for Oracle down the horizon as you know, competition intens plots. So if I were in, >>Dave, can I, Dave, can I interject something and, and what Ron just said there? Yeah, please go ahead. A couple things here, one discounting, which is a common practice when you have a real threat, as Ron pointed out, isn't going to help much in this situation simply because you can't discount to the point where you improve your performance and the performance is a huge differentiator. You may be able to get your price down, but the problem that most of them have is they don't have an integrated product service. They don't have an integrated O L T P O L A P M L N data lake. Even if you cut out two of them, they don't have any of them integrated. They have multiple services that are required separate integration and that can't be overcome with discounting. And the, they, you have to pay for each one of these. And oh, by the way, as you grow, the discounts go away. So that's a, it's a minor important detail. >>So, so that's a TCO question mark, right? And I know you look at this a lot, if I had that kind of price performance advantage, I would be pounding tco, especially if I need two separate databases to do the job. That one can do, that's gonna be, the TCO numbers are gonna be off the chart or maybe down the chart, which you want. Have you looked at this and how does it compare with, you know, the big cloud guys, for example, >>I've looked at it in depth, in fact, I'm working on another TCO on this arena, but you can find it on Wiki bod in which I compared TCO for MySEQ Heat wave versus Aurora plus Redshift plus ML plus Blue. I've compared it against gcps services, Azure services, Snowflake with other services. And there's just no comparison. The, the TCO differences are huge. More importantly, thefor, the, the TCO per performance is huge. We're talking in some cases multiple orders of magnitude, but at least an order of magnitude difference. So discounting isn't gonna help you much at the end of the day, it's only going to lower your cost a little, but it doesn't improve the automation, it doesn't improve the performance, it doesn't improve the time to insight, it doesn't improve all those things that you want out of a database or multiple databases because you >>Can't discount yourself to a higher value proposition. >>So what about, I wonder ho if you could chime in on the developer angle. You, you followed that, that market. How do these innovations from heatwave, I think you used the term developer velocity. I've heard you used that before. Yeah, I mean, look, Oracle owns Java, okay, so it, it's, you know, most popular, you know, programming language in the world, blah, blah blah. But it does it have the, the minds and hearts of, of developers and does, where does heatwave fit into that equation? >>I think heatwave is gaining quickly mindshare on the developer side, right? It's not the traditional no sequel database which grew up, there's a traditional mistrust of oracles to developers to what was happening to open source when gets acquired. Like in the case of Oracle versus Java and where my sql, right? And, but we know it's not a good competitive strategy to, to bank on Oracle screwing up because it hasn't worked not on Java known my sequel, right? And for developers, it's, once you get to know a technology product and you can do more, it becomes kind of like a Swiss army knife and you can build more use case, you can build more powerful applications. That's super, super important because you don't have to get certified in multiple databases. You, you are fast at getting things done, you achieve fire, develop velocity, and the managers are happy because they don't have to license more things, send you to more trainings, have more risk of something not being delivered, right? >>So it's really the, we see the suite where this best of breed play happening here, which in general was happening before already with Oracle's flagship database. Whereas those Amazon as an example, right? And now the interesting thing is every step away Oracle was always a one database company that can be only one and they're now generally talking about heat web and that two database company with different market spaces, but same value proposition of integrating more things very, very quickly to have a universal database that I call, they call the converge database for all the needs of an enterprise to run certain application use cases. And that's what's attractive to developers. >>It's, it's ironic isn't it? I mean I, you know, the rumor was the TK Thomas Curian left Oracle cuz he wanted to put Oracle database on other clouds and other places. And maybe that was the rift. Maybe there was, I'm sure there was other things, but, but Oracle clearly is now trying to expand its Tam Ron with, with heatwave into aws, into Azure. How do you think Oracle's gonna do, you were at a cloud world, what was the sentiment from customers and the independent analyst? Is this just Oracle trying to screw with the competition, create a little diversion? Or is this, you know, serious business for Oracle? What do you think? >>No, I think it has lakes. I think it's definitely, again, attriting to Oracle's overall ability to differentiate not only my SQL heat wave, but its overall portfolio. And I think the fact that they do have the alliance with the Azure in place, that this is definitely demonstrating their commitment to meeting the multi-cloud needs of its customers as well as what we pointed to in terms of the fact that they're now offering, you know, MySQL capabilities within AWS natively and that it can now perform AWS's own offering. And I think this is all demonstrating that Oracle is, you know, not letting up, they're not resting on its laurels. That's clearly we are living in a multi-cloud world, so why not just make it more easy for customers to be able to use cloud databases according to their own specific, specific needs. And I think, you know, to holder's point, I think that definitely lines with being able to bring on more application developers to leverage these capabilities. >>I think one important announcement that's related to all this was the JSON relational duality capabilities where now it's a lot easier for application developers to use a language that they're very familiar with a JS O and not have to worry about going into relational databases to store their J S O N application coding. So this is, I think an example of the innovation that's enhancing the overall Oracle portfolio and certainly all the work with machine learning is definitely paying dividends as well. And as a result, I see Oracle continue to make these inroads that we pointed to. But I agree with Mark, you know, the short term discounting is just a stall tag. This is not denying the fact that Oracle is being able to not only deliver price performance differentiators that are dramatic, but also meeting a wide range of needs for customers out there that aren't just limited device performance consideration. >>Being able to support multi-cloud according to customer needs. Being able to reach out to the application developer community and address a very specific challenge that has plagued them for many years now. So bring it all together. Yeah, I see this as just enabling Oracles who ring true with customers. That the customers that were there were basically all of them, even though not all of them are going to be saying the same things, they're all basically saying positive feedback. And likewise, I think the analyst community is seeing this. It's always refreshing to be able to talk to customers directly and at Oracle cloud there was a litany of them and so this is just a difference maker as well as being able to talk to strategic partners. The nvidia, I think partnerships also testament to Oracle's ongoing ability to, you know, make the ecosystem more user friendly for the customers out there. >>Yeah, it's interesting when you get these all in one tools, you know, the Swiss Army knife, you expect that it's not able to be best of breed. That's the kind of surprising thing that I'm hearing about, about heatwave. I want to, I want to talk about Lake House because when I think of Lake House, I think data bricks, and to my knowledge data bricks hasn't been in the sites of Oracle yet. Maybe they're next, but, but Oracle claims that MySQL, heatwave, Lakehouse is a breakthrough in terms of capacity and performance. Mark, what are your thoughts on that? Can you double click on, on Lakehouse Oracle's claims for things like query performance and data loading? What does it mean for the market? Is Oracle really leading in, in the lake house competitive landscape? What are your thoughts? >>Well, but name in the game is what are the problems you're solving for the customer? More importantly, are those problems urgent or important? If they're urgent, customers wanna solve 'em. Now if they're important, they might get around to them. So you look at what they're doing with Lake House or previous to that machine learning or previous to that automation or previous to that O L A with O ltp and they're merging all this capability together. If you look at Snowflake or data bricks, they're tacking one problem. You look at MyQ heat wave, they're tacking multiple problems. So when you say, yeah, their queries are much better against the lake house in combination with other analytics in combination with O ltp and the fact that there are no ETLs. So you're getting all this done in real time. So it's, it's doing the query cross, cross everything in real time. >>You're solving multiple user and developer problems, you're increasing their ability to get insight faster, you're having shorter response times. So yeah, they really are solving urgent problems for customers. And by putting it where the customer lives, this is the brilliance of actually being multicloud. And I know I'm backing up here a second, but by making it work in AWS and Azure where people already live, where they already have applications, what they're saying is, we're bringing it to you. You don't have to come to us to get these, these benefits, this value overall, I think it's a brilliant strategy. I give Nip and Argo wallet a huge, huge kudos for what he's doing there. So yes, what they're doing with the lake house is going to put notice on data bricks and Snowflake and everyone else for that matter. Well >>Those are guys that whole ago you, you and I have talked about this. Those are, those are the guys that are doing sort of the best of breed. You know, they're really focused and they, you know, tend to do well at least out of the gate. Now you got Oracle's converged philosophy, obviously with Oracle database. We've seen that now it's kicking in gear with, with heatwave, you know, this whole thing of sweets versus best of breed. I mean the long term, you know, customers tend to migrate towards suite, but the new shiny toy tends to get the growth. How do you think this is gonna play out in cloud database? >>Well, it's the forever never ending story, right? And in software right suite, whereas best of breed and so far in the long run suites have always won, right? So, and sometimes they struggle again because the inherent problem of sweets is you build something larger, it has more complexity and that means your cycles to get everything working together to integrate the test that roll it out, certify whatever it is, takes you longer, right? And that's not the case. It's a fascinating part of what the effort around my SQL heat wave is that the team is out executing the previous best of breed data, bringing us something together. Now if they can maintain that pace, that's something to to, to be seen. But it, the strategy, like what Mark was saying, bring the software to the data is of course interesting and unique and totally an Oracle issue in the past, right? >>Yeah. But it had to be in your database on oci. And but at, that's an interesting part. The interesting thing on the Lake health side is, right, there's three key benefits of a lakehouse. The first one is better reporting analytics, bring more rich information together, like make the, the, the case for silicon angle, right? We want to see engagements for this video, we want to know what's happening. That's a mixed transactional video media use case, right? Typical Lakehouse use case. The next one is to build more rich applications, transactional applications which have video and these elements in there, which are the engaging one. And the third one, and that's where I'm a little critical and concerned, is it's really the base platform for artificial intelligence, right? To run deep learning to run things automatically because they have all the data in one place can create in one way. >>And that's where Oracle, I know that Ron talked about Invidia for a moment, but that's where Oracle doesn't have the strongest best story. Nonetheless, the two other main use cases of the lake house are very strong, very well only concern is four 50 terabyte sounds long. It's an arbitrary limitation. Yeah, sounds as big. So for the start, and it's the first word, they can make that bigger. You don't want your lake house to be limited and the terabyte sizes or any even petabyte size because you want to have the certainty. I can put everything in there that I think it might be relevant without knowing what questions to ask and query those questions. >>Yeah. And you know, in the early days of no schema on right, it just became a mess. But now technology has evolved to allow us to actually get more value out of that data. Data lake. Data swamp is, you know, not much more, more, more, more logical. But, and I want to get in, in a moment, I want to come back to how you think the competitors are gonna respond. Are they gonna have to sort of do a more of a converged approach? AWS in particular? But before I do, Ron, I want to ask you a question about autopilot because I heard Larry Ellison's keynote and he was talking about how, you know, most security issues are human errors with autonomy and autonomous database and things like autopilot. We take care of that. It's like autonomous vehicles, they're gonna be safer. And I went, well maybe, maybe someday. So Oracle really tries to emphasize this, that every time you see an announcement from Oracle, they talk about new, you know, autonomous capabilities. It, how legit is it? Do people care? What about, you know, what's new for heatwave Lakehouse? How much of a differentiator, Ron, do you really think autopilot is in this cloud database space? >>Yeah, I think it will definitely enhance the overall proposition. I don't think people are gonna buy, you know, lake house exclusively cause of autopilot capabilities, but when they look at the overall picture, I think it will be an added capability bonus to Oracle's benefit. And yeah, I think it's kind of one of these age old questions, how much do you automate and what is the bounce to strike? And I think we all understand with the automatic car, autonomous car analogy that there are limitations to being able to use that. However, I think it's a tool that basically every organization out there needs to at least have or at least evaluate because it goes to the point of it helps with ease of use, it helps make automation more balanced in terms of, you know, being able to test, all right, let's automate this process and see if it works well, then we can go on and switch on on autopilot for other processes. >>And then, you know, that allows, for example, the specialists to spend more time on business use cases versus, you know, manual maintenance of, of the cloud database and so forth. So I think that actually is a, a legitimate value proposition. I think it's just gonna be a case by case basis. Some organizations are gonna be more aggressive with putting automation throughout their processes throughout their organization. Others are gonna be more cautious. But it's gonna be, again, something that will help the overall Oracle proposition. And something that I think will be used with caution by many organizations, but other organizations are gonna like, hey, great, this is something that is really answering a real problem. And that is just easing the use of these databases, but also being able to better handle the automation capabilities and benefits that come with it without having, you know, a major screwup happened and the process of transitioning to more automated capabilities. >>Now, I didn't attend cloud world, it's just too many red eyes, you know, recently, so I passed. But one of the things I like to do at those events is talk to customers, you know, in the spirit of the truth, you know, they, you know, you'd have the hallway, you know, track and to talk to customers and they say, Hey, you know, here's the good, the bad and the ugly. So did you guys, did you talk to any customers my SQL Heatwave customers at, at cloud world? And and what did you learn? I don't know, Mark, did you, did you have any luck and, and having some, some private conversations? >>Yeah, I had quite a few private conversations. The one thing before I get to that, I want disagree with one point Ron made, I do believe there are customers out there buying the heat wave service, the MySEQ heat wave server service because of autopilot. Because autopilot is really revolutionary in many ways in the sense for the MySEQ developer in that it, it auto provisions, it auto parallel loads, IT auto data places it auto shape predictions. It can tell you what machine learning models are going to tell you, gonna give you your best results. And, and candidly, I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't wanna give up pedantic tasks that are pain in the kahoo, which they'd rather not do and if it's long as it was done right for them. So yes, I do think people are buying it because of autopilot and that's based on some of the conversations I had with customers at Oracle Cloud World. >>In fact, it was like, yeah, that's great, yeah, we get fantastic performance, but this really makes my life easier and I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't want to make their life easier. And it does. So yeah, I've talked to a few of them. They were excited. I asked them if they ran into any bugs, were there any difficulties in moving to it? And the answer was no. In both cases, it's interesting to note, my sequel is the most popular database on the planet. Well, some will argue that it's neck and neck with SQL Server, but if you add in Mariah DB and ProCon db, which are forks of MySQL, then yeah, by far and away it's the most popular. And as a result of that, everybody for the most part has typically a my sequel database somewhere in their organization. So this is a brilliant situation for anybody going after MyQ, but especially for heat wave. And the customers I talk to love it. I didn't find anybody complaining about it. And >>What about the migration? We talked about TCO earlier. Did your t does your TCO analysis include the migration cost or do you kind of conveniently leave that out or what? >>Well, when you look at migration costs, there are different kinds of migration costs. By the way, the worst job in the data center is the data migration manager. Forget it, no other job is as bad as that one. You get no attaboys for doing it. Right? And then when you screw up, oh boy. So in real terms, anything that can limit data migration is a good thing. And when you look at Data Lake, that limits data migration. So if you're already a MySEQ user, this is a pure MySQL as far as you're concerned. It's just a, a simple transition from one to the other. You may wanna make sure nothing broke and every you, all your tables are correct and your schema's, okay, but it's all the same. So it's a simple migration. So it's pretty much a non-event, right? When you migrate data from an O LTP to an O L A P, that's an ETL and that's gonna take time. >>But you don't have to do that with my SQL heat wave. So that's gone when you start talking about machine learning, again, you may have an etl, you may not, depending on the circumstances, but again, with my SQL heat wave, you don't, and you don't have duplicate storage, you don't have to copy it from one storage container to another to be able to be used in a different database, which by the way, ultimately adds much more cost than just the other service. So yeah, I looked at the migration and again, the users I talked to said it was a non-event. It was literally moving from one physical machine to another. If they had a new version of MySEQ running on something else and just wanted to migrate it over or just hook it up or just connect it to the data, it worked just fine. >>Okay, so every day it sounds like you guys feel, and we've certainly heard this, my colleague David Foyer, the semi-retired David Foyer was always very high on heatwave. So I think you knows got some real legitimacy here coming from a standing start, but I wanna talk about the competition, how they're likely to respond. I mean, if your AWS and you got heatwave is now in your cloud, so there's some good aspects of that. The database guys might not like that, but the infrastructure guys probably love it. Hey, more ways to sell, you know, EC two and graviton, but you're gonna, the database guys in AWS are gonna respond. They're gonna say, Hey, we got Redshift, we got aqua. What's your thoughts on, on not only how that's gonna resonate with customers, but I'm interested in what you guys think will a, I never say never about aws, you know, and are they gonna try to build, in your view a converged Oola and o LTP database? You know, Snowflake is taking an ecosystem approach. They've added in transactional capabilities to the portfolio so they're not standing still. What do you guys see in the competitive landscape in that regard going forward? Maybe Holger, you could start us off and anybody else who wants to can chime in, >>Happy to, you mentioned Snowflake last, we'll start there. I think Snowflake is imitating that strategy, right? That building out original data warehouse and the clouds tasking project to really proposition to have other data available there because AI is relevant for everybody. Ultimately people keep data in the cloud for ultimately running ai. So you see the same suite kind of like level strategy, it's gonna be a little harder because of the original positioning. How much would people know that you're doing other stuff? And I just, as a former developer manager of developers, I just don't see the speed at the moment happening at Snowflake to become really competitive to Oracle. On the flip side, putting my Oracle hat on for a moment back to you, Mark and Iran, right? What could Oracle still add? Because the, the big big things, right? The traditional chasms in the database world, they have built everything, right? >>So I, I really scratched my hat and gave Nipon a hard time at Cloud world say like, what could you be building? Destiny was very conservative. Let's get the Lakehouse thing done, it's gonna spring next year, right? And the AWS is really hard because AWS value proposition is these small innovation teams, right? That they build two pizza teams, which can be fit by two pizzas, not large teams, right? And you need suites to large teams to build these suites with lots of functionalities to make sure they work together. They're consistent, they have the same UX on the administration side, they can consume the same way, they have the same API registry, can't even stop going where the synergy comes to play over suite. So, so it's gonna be really, really hard for them to change that. But AWS super pragmatic. They're always by themselves that they'll listen to customers if they learn from customers suite as a proposition. I would not be surprised if AWS trying to bring things closer together, being morely together. >>Yeah. Well how about, can we talk about multicloud if, if, again, Oracle is very on on Oracle as you said before, but let's look forward, you know, half a year or a year. What do you think about Oracle's moves in, in multicloud in terms of what kind of penetration they're gonna have in the marketplace? You saw a lot of presentations at at cloud world, you know, we've looked pretty closely at the, the Microsoft Azure deal. I think that's really interesting. I've, I've called it a little bit of early days of a super cloud. What impact do you think this is gonna have on, on the marketplace? But, but both. And think about it within Oracle's customer base, I have no doubt they'll do great there. But what about beyond its existing install base? What do you guys think? >>Ryan, do you wanna jump on that? Go ahead. Go ahead Ryan. No, no, no, >>That's an excellent point. I think it aligns with what we've been talking about in terms of Lakehouse. I think Lake House will enable Oracle to pull more customers, more bicycle customers onto the Oracle platforms. And I think we're seeing all the signs pointing toward Oracle being able to make more inroads into the overall market. And that includes garnishing customers from the leaders in, in other words, because they are, you know, coming in as a innovator, a an alternative to, you know, the AWS proposition, the Google cloud proposition that they have less to lose and there's a result they can really drive the multi-cloud messaging to resonate with not only their existing customers, but also to be able to, to that question, Dave's posing actually garnish customers onto their platform. And, and that includes naturally my sequel but also OCI and so forth. So that's how I'm seeing this playing out. I think, you know, again, Oracle's reporting is indicating that, and I think what we saw, Oracle Cloud world is definitely validating the idea that Oracle can make more waves in the overall market in this regard. >>You know, I, I've floated this idea of Super cloud, it's kind of tongue in cheek, but, but there, I think there is some merit to it in terms of building on top of hyperscale infrastructure and abstracting some of the, that complexity. And one of the things that I'm most interested in is industry clouds and an Oracle acquisition of Cerner. I was struck by Larry Ellison's keynote, it was like, I don't know, an hour and a half and an hour and 15 minutes was focused on healthcare transformation. Well, >>So vertical, >>Right? And so, yeah, so you got Oracle's, you know, got some industry chops and you, and then you think about what they're building with, with not only oci, but then you got, you know, MyQ, you can now run in dedicated regions. You got ADB on on Exadata cloud to customer, you can put that OnPrem in in your data center and you look at what the other hyperscalers are, are doing. I I say other hyperscalers, I've always said Oracle's not really a hyperscaler, but they got a cloud so they're in the game. But you can't get, you know, big query OnPrem, you look at outposts, it's very limited in terms of, you know, the database support and again, that that will will evolve. But now you got Oracle's got, they announced Alloy, we can white label their cloud. So I'm interested in what you guys think about these moves, especially the industry cloud. We see, you know, Walmart is doing sort of their own cloud. You got Goldman Sachs doing a cloud. Do you, you guys, what do you think about that and what role does Oracle play? Any thoughts? >>Yeah, let me lemme jump on that for a moment. Now, especially with the MyQ, by making that available in multiple clouds, what they're doing is this follows the philosophy they've had the past with doing cloud, a customer taking the application and the data and putting it where the customer lives. If it's on premise, it's on premise. If it's in the cloud, it's in the cloud. By making the mice equal heat wave, essentially a plug compatible with any other mice equal as far as your, your database is concern and then giving you that integration with O L A P and ML and Data Lake and everything else, then what you've got is a compelling offering. You're making it easier for the customer to use. So I look the difference between MyQ and the Oracle database, MyQ is going to capture market more market share for them. >>You're not gonna find a lot of new users for the Oracle debate database. Yeah, there are always gonna be new users, don't get me wrong, but it's not gonna be a huge growth. Whereas my SQL heatwave is probably gonna be a major growth engine for Oracle going forward. Not just in their own cloud, but in AWS and in Azure and on premise over time that eventually it'll get there. It's not there now, but it will, they're doing the right thing on that basis. They're taking the services and when you talk about multicloud and making them available where the customer wants them, not forcing them to go where you want them, if that makes sense. And as far as where they're going in the future, I think they're gonna take a page outta what they've done with the Oracle database. They'll add things like JSON and XML and time series and spatial over time they'll make it a, a complete converged database like they did with the Oracle database. The difference being Oracle database will scale bigger and will have more transactions and be somewhat faster. And my SQL will be, for anyone who's not on the Oracle database, they're, they're not stupid, that's for sure. >>They've done Jason already. Right. But I give you that they could add graph and time series, right. Since eat with, Right, Right. Yeah, that's something absolutely right. That's, that's >>A sort of a logical move, right? >>Right. But that's, that's some kid ourselves, right? I mean has worked in Oracle's favor, right? 10 x 20 x, the amount of r and d, which is in the MyQ space, has been poured at trying to snatch workloads away from Oracle by starting with IBM 30 years ago, 20 years ago, Microsoft and, and, and, and didn't work, right? Database applications are extremely sticky when they run, you don't want to touch SIM and grow them, right? So that doesn't mean that heat phase is not an attractive offering, but it will be net new things, right? And what works in my SQL heat wave heat phases favor a little bit is it's not the massive enterprise applications which have like we the nails like, like you might be only running 30% or Oracle, but the connections and the interfaces into that is, is like 70, 80% of your enterprise. >>You take it out and it's like the spaghetti ball where you say, ah, no I really don't, don't want to do all that. Right? You don't, don't have that massive part with the equals heat phase sequel kind of like database which are more smaller tactical in comparison, but still I, I don't see them taking so much share. They will be growing because of a attractive value proposition quickly on the, the multi-cloud, right? I think it's not really multi-cloud. If you give people the chance to run your offering on different clouds, right? You can run it there. The multi-cloud advantages when the Uber offering comes out, which allows you to do things across those installations, right? I can migrate data, I can create data across something like Google has done with B query Omni, I can run predictive models or even make iron models in different place and distribute them, right? And Oracle is paving the road for that, but being available on these clouds. But the multi-cloud capability of database which knows I'm running on different clouds that is still yet to be built there. >>Yeah. And >>That the problem with >>That, that's the super cloud concept that I flowed and I I've always said kinda snowflake with a single global instance is sort of, you know, headed in that direction and maybe has a league. What's the issue with that mark? >>Yeah, the problem with the, with that version, the multi-cloud is clouds to charge egress fees. As long as they charge egress fees to move data between clouds, it's gonna make it very difficult to do a real multi-cloud implementation. Even Snowflake, which runs multi-cloud, has to pass out on the egress fees of their customer when data moves between clouds. And that's really expensive. I mean there, there is one customer I talked to who is beta testing for them, the MySQL heatwave and aws. The only reason they didn't want to do that until it was running on AWS is the egress fees were so great to move it to OCI that they couldn't afford it. Yeah. Egress fees are the big issue but, >>But Mark the, the point might be you might wanna root query and only get the results set back, right was much more tinier, which been the answer before for low latency between the class A problem, which we sometimes still have but mostly don't have. Right? And I think in general this with fees coming down based on the Oracle general E with fee move and it's very hard to justify those, right? But, but it's, it's not about moving data as a multi-cloud high value use case. It's about doing intelligent things with that data, right? Putting into other places, replicating it, what I'm saying the same thing what you said before, running remote queries on that, analyzing it, running AI on it, running AI models on that. That's the interesting thing. Cross administered in the same way. Taking things out, making sure compliance happens. Making sure when Ron says I don't want to be American anymore, I want to be in the European cloud that is gets migrated, right? So tho those are the interesting value use case which are really, really hard for enterprise to program hand by hand by developers and they would love to have out of the box and that's yet the innovation to come to, we have to come to see. But the first step to get there is that your software runs in multiple clouds and that's what Oracle's doing so well with my SQL >>Guys. Amazing. >>Go ahead. Yeah. >>Yeah. >>For example, >>Amazing amount of data knowledge and, and brain power in this market. Guys, I really want to thank you for coming on to the cube. Ron Holger. Mark, always a pleasure to have you on. Really appreciate your time. >>Well all the last names we're very happy for Romanic last and moderator. Thanks Dave for moderating us. All right, >>We'll see. We'll see you guys around. Safe travels to all and thank you for watching this power panel, The Truth About My SQL Heat Wave on the cube. Your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Welcome back everyone to the Cube and Horizon three.ai special presentation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We with Chris Hill, Sector head for strategic accounts and federal@horizonthree.ai. Great innovative company. Chris, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Yeah, like I said, you know, great to meet you John. Long time listener. First time call. So excited to be here with >>You guys. Yeah, we were talking before camera. You had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com. Yep. And boy man, you know, talk about being in the right place at the right time. Now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant and continuing to have that data driving security and that interplay. And your ceo, former CTO of Splunk as well at Horizons Neha, who's been on before. Really innovative product you guys have, but you know, Yeah, don't wait for a brief to find out if you're locking the right data. This is the topic of this thread. Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement with you guys. Tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and the Horizon AI as you guys expand Node zero out internationally? >>Yeah, well so across, so you know, my role within Splunk was working with our most strategic accounts. And so I look back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with, with our small customers. You know, it was, it was still very siloed back then. Like I was selling to an IT team that was either using us for IT operations. We generally would always even say, yeah, although we do security, we weren't really designed for it. We're a log management tool. And you know, we, and I'm sure you remember back then John, we were like sort of stepping into the security space and in the public sector domain that I was in, you know, security was 70% of what we did. When I look back to sort of the transformation that I was, was witnessing in that digital transformation, you know when I, you look at like 2019 to today, you look at how the IT team and the security teams are, have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silo away, would not communicate one, you know, the security guys would be like, Oh this is my BA box it, you're not allowed in today. >>You can't get away with that. And I think that the value that we bring to, you know, and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do innovation across the board. But I think what we've we're seeing in the space that I was talking with Patrick Kauflin, the SVP of security markets about this, is that, you know, what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data. So Splunk itself, as you well know, it's an ingest engine, right? So the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it, but without data it doesn't do anything, right? So how do you drive and how do you bring more data in? And most importantly from a customer perspective, how do you bring the right data in? >>And so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a Horizon three is that, sure we do pen testing, but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool, we do it continuously. So this whole thought of being like, Oh, crud like my customers, Oh yeah, we got a pen test coming up, it's gonna be six weeks. The wait. Oh yeah. You know, and everyone's gonna sit on their hands, Call me back in two months, Chris, we'll talk to you then. Right? Not, not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot, we, we saw that with Uber this week. Right? You know, and that's a case where we could have helped. >>Well just real quick, explain the Uber thing cause it was a contractor. Just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the >>Dots. Yeah, no problem. So there it was, I think it was one of those, you know, games where they would try and test an environment. And what the pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like, I need to reset my password re to set my password. And eventually the customer service guy said, Okay, I'm resetting it. Once he had reset and bypassed the multifactor authentication, he then was able to get in and get access to the domain area that he was in or the, not the domain, but he was able to gain access to a partial part of the network. He then paralleled over to what would I assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains. And so within minutes they had access. And that's the sort of stuff that we do under, you know, a lot of these tools. >>Like not, and I'm not, you know, you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a CTA orchestra architecture, right? I'm gonna get like a Zscaler, I'm gonna have Okta, I'm gonna have a Splunk, I'm gonna do this sore system. I mean, I don't mean to name names, we're gonna have crowd strike or, or Sentinel one in there. It's just, it's a cacophony of things that don't work together. They weren't designed work together. And so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen test, that there will be 5,000 servers out there. Three are misconfigured. Those three misconfigurations will create the open door. Cause remember the hacker only needs to be right once, the defender needs to be right all the time. And that's the challenge. And so that's why I'm really passionate about what we're doing here at Horizon three. I see this my digital transformation, migration and security going on, which we're at the tip of the sp, it's why I joined say Hall coming on this journey and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk. I get into more details on some of the specifics of that. But you know, >>I mean, well you're nailing, I mean we've been doing a lot of things around super cloud and this next gen environment, we're calling it NextGen. You're really seeing DevOps, obviously Dev SecOps has, has already won the IT role has moved to the developer shift left as an indicator of that. It's one of the many examples, higher velocity code software supply chain. You hear these things. That means that it is now in the developer hands, it is replaced by the new ops, data ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking. To your point about access, there's no more perimeter. So >>That there is no perimeter. >>Huge. A hundred percent right, is really right on. I don't think it's one time, you know, to get in there. Once you're in, then you can hang out, move around, move laterally. Big problem. Okay, so we get that. Now, the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally, how do they figure out what to do? Okay, this is the next step. They already have Splunk, so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success. So how would you look at that and describe the challenges? What do they do? What is, what are the teams facing with their data and what's next? What do they, what do they, what action do they take? >>So let's do some vernacular that folks will know. So if I think about dev sec ops, right? We both know what that means, that I'm gonna build security into the app, but no one really talks about SEC DevOps, right? How am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing? And so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we could pen test the entire environment from soup to nuts, right? So I'm gonna test the end points through to it. So I'm gonna look for misconfigurations, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna look for credential exposed credentials. You know, I'm gonna look for anything I can in the environment. Again, I'm gonna do it at at light speed. And, and what we're, what we're doing for that SEC dev space is to, you know, did you detect that we were in your environment? >>So did we alert Splunk or the SIM that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around? Did they, more importantly, did they log us into their environment? And when did they detect that log to trigger that log? Did they alert on us? And then finally, most importantly, for every CSO out there is gonna be did they stop us? And so that's how we, we, we do this in, I think you, when speaking with Stay Hall, before, you know, we've come up with this boils U Loop, but we call it fine fix verify. So what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker, right? We act in a production environment. So we're not gonna be, we're a passive attacker, but we will go in un credentialed UN agents. But we have to assume, have an assumed breach model, which means we're gonna put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment. >>So we're gonna go out and do an asset survey. Now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well, you know, so can Splunk see all the assets, do the same assets marry up? We're gonna log all that data and think then put load that into the Splunk sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in enterprise, right? That's an immediate future ad that they've got. And then we've got the fix. So once we've completed our pen test, we are then gonna generate a report and we could talk about about these in a little bit later. But the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found, which would be your asset discovery aspect of that, a fixed report. And the fixed report I think is probably the most important one. It will go down and identify what we did, how we did it, and then how to fix that. >>And then from that, the pen tester or the organization should fix those. Then they go back and run another test. And then they validate through like a change detection environment to see, hey, did those fixes taste, play take place? And you know, SNA Hall, when he was the CTO of JS o, he shared with me a number of times about, he's like, Man, there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about. And it's, and it has to do with how we, you know, how they were prioritizing the CVEs and whatnot because they would take all CVS was critical or non-critical. And it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot. That >>Was a lot. That brings, that brings up the, the efficiency for Splunk specifically. The teams out there. By the way, the burnout thing is real. I mean, this whole, I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can, keeps, keeps growing. How did Node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient? Now that's the question I want to get at, because this seems like a very scalable way for Splunk customers and teams, service teams to be more efficient. So the question is, how does Node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient? >>So to, so today in our early interactions with building Splunk customers, what we've seen are five things, and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots, right? So kind of what I just talked about with you. Did we detect, did we log, did we alert? Did they stop node zero, right? And so I would, I put that at, you know, a a a more layman's third grade term. And if I was gonna beat a fifth grader at this game would be, we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk enterprise customer, a Splunk essentials customer, someone using Splunk soar, or even just an enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and, and just wants to know where am I exposed. So by creating and generating these reports and then having the API that actually generates the dashboard, they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in. >>And then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs, right? So how do we create visibility to logs that are, have critical impacts? And again, as I mentioned earlier, not all CVEs are high impact regard and also not all are low, right? So if you daisy chain a bunch of low CVEs together, boom, I've got a mission critical AP CVE that needs to be fixed now, such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it, that would be very bad. And then third would be verifying that you have all of the hosts. So one of the things that Splunk's not particularly great at, and they, they themselves, they don't do asset discovery. So do what assets do we see and what are they logging from that? And then for, from, for every event that they are able to identify the, one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low-code, no-code environment. >>So they could let, you know, float customers can use Splunk. So to actually triage events and prioritize that events or where they're being routed within it to optimize the SOX team time to market or time to triage any given event. Obviously reducing mtr. And then finally, I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is our ability to build glass tables. So behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build a lock Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table, which is very familiar to this Splunk community. We're going to have the ability, not too distant future to allow people to search, observe on those IOCs. And if people aren't familiar with an ioc, it's an incident of compromise. So that's a vector that we want to drill into. And of course who's better at drilling in into data and Splunk. >>Yeah, this is a critical, this is awesome synergy there. I mean I can see a Splunk customer going, Man, this just gives me so much more capability. Action actionability. And also real understanding, and I think this is what I wanna dig into, if you don't mind understanding that critical impact, okay. Is kind of where I see this coming. I got the data, data ingest now data's data. But the question is what not to log, You know, where are things misconfigured? These are critical questions. So can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact? >>Yeah, so I think, you know, going back to those things that I just spoke about, a lot of those CVEs where you'll see low, low, low and then you daisy chain together and you're suddenly like, oh, this is high now. But then to your other impact of like if you're a, if you're a a Splunk customer, you know, and I had, I had several of them, I had one customer that, you know, terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like, all right, there's a lot of other data that you probably also wanna bring, but they could only afford, wanted to do certain data sets because that's, and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets. And so we provide that opportunity to say, Hey, these are the critical ones to bring in. But there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low CVE in this case really does mean low cve. >>Like an ILO server would be one that, that's the print server where the, your admin credentials are on, on like a, a printer. And so there will be credentials on that. That's something that a hacker might go in to look at. So although the CVE on it is low, if you daisy chain was something that's able to get into that, you might say, ah, that's high. And we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate. So put it on the scale and we prioritize though, versus a, a vulner review scanner's just gonna give you a bunch of CVEs and good luck. >>And translating that if I, if I can and tell me if I'm wrong, that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement. That's it. Challenge, right? Print server, great example, look stupid low end, who's gonna wanna deal with the print server? Oh, but it's connected into a critical system. There's a path. Is that kind of what you're getting at? >>Yeah, I used daisy chain. I think that's from the community they came from. But it's, it's just a lateral movement. It's exactly what they're doing. And those low level, low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in. Right? So that's what the beauty thing about the, the Uber example is that who would've thought, you know, I've got my multifactor authentication going in a human made a mistake. We can't, we can't not expect humans to make mistakes. Were fall, were fallible, right? Yeah. The reality is is once they were in the environment, they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain exposed credentials that would've stopped the breach. Yeah. And they did not, had not done that in their environment. And I'm not poking. Yeah, >>They put it's interesting trend though. I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well. So it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint, but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spear fished because they're not paying attention. Cause they don't have to. No one ever told them, Hey, be careful of what you collect. >>Yeah. For the community that I came from, John, that's exactly how they, they would meet you at a, an international event introduce themselves as a graduate student. These are national actor states. Would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such? And I was at Adobe at the time though I was working on this and start off, you get the pdf, they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches, and I don't know if you remember back in like 2002, 2008 time frame, there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it. And John, that's >>Or LinkedIn. Hey I wanna get a joke, we wanna hire you double the salary. Oh I'm gonna click on that for sure. You know? Yeah, >>Right. Exactly. Yeah. The one thing I would say to you is like when we look at like sort of, you know, cuz I think we did 10,000 pen test last year is it's probably over that now, you know, we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think then fine people coming into the environment. The funniest thing is that only one of them is a, a CVE related vulnerability. Like, you know, you guys know what they are, right? So it's it, but it's, it's like 2% of the attacks are occurring through the CVEs, but yet there's all that attention spent to that. Yeah. And very little attention spent to this pen testing side. Yeah. Which is sort of this continuous threat, you know, monitoring space and, and, and this vulnerability space where I think we play such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one. >>Yeah. I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers, which I love as a, you know, watching that movie, you know, professional hackers are testing, testing, always testing the environment. I love this. I gotta ask you, as we kind of wrap up here, Chris, if you don't mind the benefits to team professional services from this alliance, big news Splunk and you guys work well together. We see that clearly. What are, what other benefits do professional services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon three AI alliance? >>So if you're a, I think for, from our, our, from both of our partners as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner, right? Is that first off, the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at. So if you're an end user, you can buy for the enterprise by the enter of IP addresses you're using. But if you're a partner working with this, there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to MSPs and what that business model on our MSPs looks like. But the unique thing that we do here is this c plus license. And so the Consulting Plus license allows like a, somebody a small to midsize to some very large, you know, Fortune 100, you know, consulting firms uses by buying into a license called Consulting Plus where they can have unlimited access to as many ips as they want. >>But you can only run one test at a time. And as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and checking hashes and decrypting hashes, that can take a while. So, but for the right customer, it's, it's a perfect tool. And so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with our partners so that we underhand to sell, understand how not to just sell too or not tell just to sell through, but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner. I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bringing into market. >>Yeah. I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled partners and professional services. Absolutely. They've, you know, the services that layer on top of Splunk are multifold tons of great benefits. So you guys vector right into that ride, that wave with >>Friction. And, and the cool thing is that in, you know, in one of our reports, which could be totally customized with someone else's logo, we're going to generate, you know, so I, I used to work at another organization, it wasn't Splunk, but we, we did, you know, pen testing as a, as a for, for customers and my pen testers would come on site, they, they do the engagement and they would leave. And then another really, someone would be, oh shoot, we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back, you know, four weeks later. And so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like, wow. And in March maybe, and they'd like, No, no, no, I gotta breach now. And, and, and then when they do go in, they go through, do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pat you on the back and say, there's where your problems are, you need to fix it. And the reality is, is that what we're gonna generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're gonna go and find all the permutations that anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you fixed everything, you just go back and run another pen test. Yeah. It's, you know, for what people pay for one pen test, they could have a tool that does that. Every, every pat patch on Tuesday pen test on Wednesday, you know, triage throughout the week, >>Green, yellow, red. I wanted to see colors show me green, green is good, right? Not red. >>And once CIO doesn't want, who doesn't want that dashboard, right? It's, it's, it is exactly it. And we can help bring, I think that, you know, I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team cuz they get that, they understand that it's the green, yellow, red dashboard and, and how do we help them find more green so that the other guys are >>In Yeah. And get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data, Know what to look at. So many things to pay attention to, you know, the combination of both and then, then go to market strategy. Real brilliant. Congratulations Chris. Thanks for coming on and sharing this news with the detail around this Splunk in action around the alliance. Thanks for sharing, >>John. My pleasure. Thanks. Look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right, great. We'll follow up and do another segment on DevOps and IT and security teams as the new new ops, but, and Super cloud, a bunch of other stuff. So thanks for coming on. And our next segment, the CEO of Verizon, three AA, will break down all the new news for us here on the cube. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

>>Welcome back to super cloud 22, our inaugural event. It's a pilot event here in the cube studios we're live and streaming virtually until we do it in person. Maybe next year. I'm John fury, host of the cube with Dave Lon two great guests, distinguished engineers managers, CTOs investors. Mariana Tessel is a CTO of Intuit ins Ray founder of vertex ventures. Both have a lot of DNA. Founder allow cloud here with mark Andre and Ben Horowitz, a variety of other great ventures you've done. And now you're an investor. Yep. Maria, you've been a seasoned CTO, VP of engineering, VMware Docker Intuit. Now thanks for joining us. >>Absolutely. >>So super cloud is a, is a thing. And apparently it's got a lot of momentum and you guys got stats over there at, at Intuit in, so you're investing and we were challenged on super cloud. Our initial thesis was you build on the clouds, get all that leverage like snowflake, you get a good differentiation and then you compete and then move to other clouds. Now it's becoming a thing where I can do this. Every enterprise could possibly do it. So I want to get your guys thoughts on what you think of super cloud concept and where are the holes in it, what needs to be defined. And so we'll start with you. You've done a lot of cloud things in your day. What >>Do you think? Yeah, it's the whole cloud journey started with a desire to consolidate and desire to actually provide uniformity and, and standards driven ways of doing things. And I think Amazon was a leader there. They helped kind of teach everybody else. You know, when I was in loud cloud, we were trying to do it with proprietary stacks just wouldn't work. But once everyone standardized upon Unix and you know, the chip sets no longer became as relevant. They did a lot of good things there, but what's happened since then is now you've got competing standards at the API layer at the interface layer no longer at the chip set layer, no longer at the operating system layer. Right? So the evolution of the, the, the battles are still there. When you talk about multicloud and super cloud, though, like one of the big things you have to keep in mind is latency is not free. Latency is very expensive and it's getting even more expensive now with, with multi-cloud. So you have to really understand where the separations of boundaries are between your data, your compute, and, and the network is just there as a facilitator to help binding compute and data. Right? And I think there's a lot of bets being made across different vendors like CloudFlare Akamai, as well as Amazon Google Microsoft in terms of how they think we should take computing either to the edge, from the core or back and forth. >>These, this is structural change. I mean, this is structural, >>It's desired by incumbents, but it's not something that I'm seeing from the consumption. I'd love to hear, hear from our end's per perspective, from a consumption point of view, like how much edge computing really matters. Right. >>Mario. >>So I think there's like, there's kind of a, a story of like two, like it's kind of, you can cut it for both edges. No, no pun intended on one end. It is really simplifying to actually go into like a single cloud and standardize on it and just have everything there. But I think what over time companies find is that they end up in multiple clouds, whether like, you know, through acquisitions or through like needing to use a service in another cloud. So you do find yourself in a situation where you have multi multi-cloud and you have to kind of work through it and understand how to make it all like work and latency is an issue, but also for many, many workloads, you can work around it and you can make it work where you have workloads that actually span multiple vendors and clouds. You know, again, having said that, I would say the world is such, that is still a simplifying assumption. When if you go to a single cloud, it's much easier to just go and, and bet on that >>Easier in terms of everything's integrated, IAS works with SAS, they solve a lot of problems. >>Correct. And you can do like for your developers, you can actually provide an environment that's super homogenous, simple. You can use services easily up and down the stack. And, you know, we, we actually made that deliberate decision. When we started migrating to the cloud at the beginning, it was like, oh, let's do like hybrid we'll, you know, make it, so it work anywhere. It was so complicated. It was not worth it. >>When was the, when did you give up, what was the moment? Was there a flash point where you said, oh, this is terrible. This is >>Dead. Yeah. When, when we started to try to make it interoperable and you just see what it requires to do that and the complexity of the architecture that it just became not worth it for the gains you have. >>So speaking obviously as a SAS provider, right. So it just doesn't, it didn't make business case sense for you guys to do that. So it was super cloud. Then an infrastructure thing we just heard from Ben wa deja VI that they're not, they're going beyond instantiating their, their data cloud. They're actually running, you know, their own little snow grid. They called it. And, and then when I asked him, well, what about latency? He said, well, we copied data over, you know, so, okay. That's you have to do, but that's a singular experience with the same governance or the same security. Just wasn't worth it for you guys is what I'm hearing. >>Correct. But again, like for some workload or for some services that we want to use, we are gonna go there and we are gonna then figure out what is the work around the latency issue, whether it's like copy or, you know, redundancy. >>Well, the question I have Dave on snowflake is maybe the question for you and in the panel is snowflake a tan expansion opportunity, or is there a technical reason to go to other clouds? >>I think they wanted to leverage the hyperscale infrastructure globally. And they said that they're out there, it's a free gift. We're gonna go take it. I, I think it started with we're on AWS. Do you think? And then we're on Azure and then we're on Google. And then they said, why don't we just connect all these and make it a singular experience? And yeah, I guess it's a TA expansion as a differentiator and it's, it adds value. Right. If I can share data across that global network, >>We have customers on Azure now, >>Right? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. >>You guys don't need to go CP. What do you think about that? >>Well, I think Snowflake's in a good position cuz they work mostly with analytical workloads and you have capacity. That's always gonna increase like no one subtracts, their analytical workload like ever, right. So there was just compounded growth is like 50% or 80% for, you know, many enterprises despite their best intentions, not to collect more data, they just can't stop doing it. So it's different than if you're like an Oracle or a transactional database where you don't have those, you know, like kind of infinite growth paths. So Snowflake's gonna continue to expand footprint their customers. They don't mind as long as you, they can figure out the, the lowest cost on denominator for, for that. >>Yeah. So it makes sense to be in all the clouds >>For them, for, for them, for sure. Yeah. >>But, but, but Oracle just announced with Microsoft what I would call super cloud, a, a cross cloud database service running on OCI and Azure with very low latency and a database that looks like a, the singular experience. Yeah. With, with a PAs layers >>That lost me after OCI that's >>Okay. You know, but that's the, that's the, the BS answer for all U VCs. The do nobody develops on Oracle? Well, it's a 240 billion market cap company. Show me who you all want be. >>We're gonna talk about SRDF and em C next, you >>All want Oracle. So there we go. You throw that into, you all want Oracle to buy your companies, your funding, you know, cause, cause we all wanna be like Oracle with that kinda cash flow. But, but anyway, >>Here's, here's one thing that I'm noticing that is gonna be really practical. I think for companies that do run SA is because like, you know, you have all these solutions, whether it's like analytics or like monitoring or logging or whatever. And each one of them is very data hungry and all of them have like SAS solutions that end up copy the data, moving data to their cloud, and then they might charge you by the size of your data. It does become kind of overwhelming for companies to use that many tools and basically maybe have that data kind of charge for it, multiple places because you use it for different purposes or just in general, if you have a lot of data, you know, that that is becoming an issue. So that's something that I've noticed in our, in our own kind of, you know, a world, but it's just something that I think companies need to think about how they solve because eventually a lot of companies will say, I cannot have all these solutions, so there's no way I'm gonna be willing to have so many copies of the data and actually pay for that. >>So many times, just something to think about. >>But one of the criticisms of the super cloud concept is that it's just SAS. If I'm running workload on prem and I, and I've got, you know, a connection to the cloud, which you probably do, that's, that's SAS, what's, what's the big deal and that's not anything new or different. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But Goldman Sachs, for instance, just announced the service last reinvent with AWS, connecting their tools, their data, and their software from on-prem to AWS, they're offering it as a service. I'm like, Hmm. Kind of looking like Supercloud, but maybe it's just SAS. >>It could be. And like, what I'm talking about is not so much like, you know, like what you wanna connect your data. But the idea is like a lot of the providers of different services, like in the past and, and like higher layer, they're actually COPI the data. They need the data in their cloud or their solution. And it just becomes complicated and expensive is, is kind of like my point. So yes, connecting it like for you to have the data in one place and then be able to connect to it. I think that is a valid, if, if that's kinda what you think about as a super cloud, that is a valid need, I think that companies will >>Have where developers actually want access to tools that might exist. >>Also the key is developers, right? Yeah. Developers decide all decisions, not database on administrators, not, you know, a hundred percent security engineers, not admins. So what's really interesting is where are the developers going next? If you look at the current winners in the current ecosystem, companies like MongoDB, I mean, they capture the minds of yeah. The JavaScript, you know, no JS developers absolutely very early on. And I started catch base and I could tell you like the difference was that capture motion was so important. So developers are basically used to this game-like experience now where they want to see tools that are free, whether it's open source or not, they actually don't care. They just want, and they want it SAS. They want it SAS delivered on demand. Right. And pay as you go. And so there's a lot of these different frameworks coming out next generation, no code, low code, whether it's Java, JavaScript, rust, you know, whatever, you know, go Lang. And there's a lot of people fighting religious wars about how to develop the next kind of modern pattern design pattern. Okay. And that's where a lot of excitement is how we look at like investment opportunities. Like where are those big bets who are, you know, frustrated developers, who are they frustrated, what's wrong with their current environment? You know, do they really enjoy using Kubernetes or trying to use Kubernetes? Yeah. Right. Like developers have a very different view than operator, >>But you mentioned couch base. I mean, I look at couch base what they're doing with Capellas as a form of Supercloud. I mean, I think that's an excellent, they're bringing that out to the edge. We're gonna hear later on from someone from couch base. That's gonna talk about that now. It's kind of a lightweight, you know, sort of, it's gonna be a, a synchronization, but it's the beginning >>A cool new venture deal that I'm not in, but was like duck DB. I'm like, what's duck DB like, well, it's an Emory database that has like this like remote store thing. I'm like, okay, that sounds interesting. Like let's call Mike Olson cuz that sounds like sleepy cat redone red distributed world. But like it's, it's like there's a lot of people refactoring design patterns that we're all grew up with since the popup days of, you know, typical round. Right? >>Yeah. That's the refactory I think that's the big pattern. So I have to ask you guys, what are you guys investing in? We've got a couple minutes left to chat about that. What are you investing at into it from a, from a, a CTO engineering perspective and what are you investing in that feels super cloud like to you? >>Well, the, the thing that like I'm focused on is to make sure that we have absolutely best in the world development environment for our engineers, where it's modern, it's easy to use and it incorporates as many things as we can into that environment. So the engineers don't have to think about it. Like one big example would be security and how we incorporated that into development environment. So again, the engineers don't have to bother with trying to think through how they secure their workloads and every step of the way their other things that we incorporated, whether it's like rollbacks or monitoring or, you know, like baly enough other things. But I think that's really an investment that has panned off for us. We actually started investing in development environment several years ago. We started measure our development velocity and we, it actually went up by six X justly investing. So >>User experience, developer experience and productivity pretty much right. >>Yeah. AB absolutely. Yeah. That's like a big investment area for us that, you know, cloud cloud >>Sounds like super cloudlike factor and I'm assuming it's you're on AWS. >>We are mostly on AWS. Yes. >>And so what are you investing in that from a VC money doling out standpoint? That feels super cloudlike >>So very similar to what we just touched on a lot of developer tool experiences. We have a company that we've invested in called ops level that the service catalogs it's, it's helping, you know, understand your, where your services live and how they could be accessed and, and you know, enterprise kind of that come with that. And then we have a company called Lugo that helps you do serverless debugging container debugging, cuz it turns out debugging distributed, you know, applications is a real problem right now just you can only do so much by log tracing, right? We have a company haven't announced yet that's in the web assembly space. So we're looking at modernizing the next generation past stack and throwing everything out the window, including Java and all of the, you know, current prebuilt components because turns out 90% of enterprise workloads are actually not used. They're they're just policy code. You compiled with they're sitting there as vulnerabilities that no one's actually accessing, but you still have to compile with all of it. So we have a lot of bloatware happening in the enterprise. So we're thinking about how do you skinny that up with the next generation paths that's enterprise capable with security context and frameworks >>Super pass. >>Well, yeah, super pass. That's a kind of good way to, well, is >>It, is it a consistent developer experience across clouds? >>It is. And, and, and, and web assembly is a very raw standard if you can call it that. I mean it's, but it's supported by every modern browser, every major platform, vendor cloud, and Adobe and others, and are using it for their uses. And it's not just about your edge browser compute. It's really, you can take the same framework and compile it down to server side as well as client site, just like JavaScript was a client side tool before it became node. Right. Right. So we're looking at that as a very interesting opportunity. It's very nascent. Yeah. >>Great patterns. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for spending the time outta your busy day. Ariana. Thanks for your commentary. Appreciate your coming on the cubes first in IGUR super cloud event, pilot. Thanks for, for sharing. Thanks for having, thanks for having us. Okay. More coverage here. Super cloud 2022. I'm Jeff David Alane stay with us. We got our cloud ARA panel coming up next.

>>Welcome back to the big apple, everybody. The Cube's continuous coverage here of MongoDB world 2022. We're at the new Javet center. It's it's quite nice. It was built during the pandemic. I believe on top of a former bus terminal. I'm told by our next guest Tony bear, who's the principal at DB insight of data and database expert, longtime analyst, Tony. Good to see you. Thanks for coming >>On. Thanks >>For having us. You face to face >>And welcome to New York. >>Yeah. Right. >>New York is open for business. >>So, yeah. And actually, you know, it's interesting. We've been doing a lot of these events lately and, and especially the ones in Vegas, it's the first time everybody's been out, you know, face to face, not so much here, you know, people have been out and about a lot of masks >>In, >>In New York city, but, but it's good. And, and this new venue is fantastic >>Much nicer than the old Javits. >>Yeah. And I would say maybe 3000 people here. >>Yeah. Probably, but I think like most conferences right now are kind of, they're going through like a slow ramp up. And like for instance, you know, sapphires had maybe about one third, their normal turnout. So I think that you're saying like one third to one half seems to be the norm right now are still figuring out how we're, how and where we're gonna get back together. Yeah. >>I think that's about right. And, and I, but I do think that that in most of the cases that we've seen, it's exceeded people's expectations at tenants, but anyway sure. Let's talk about Mongo, very interesting company. You know, we've been kind of been watching their progression from just sort of document database and all the features and functions they're adding, you just published a piece this morning in venture beat is time for Mongo to get into analytics. Yes. You know? Yes. One of your favorite topics. Well, can they expand analytics? They seem to be doing that. Let's dig into it. Well, >>They're taking, they've been taking slow. They've been taking baby steps and there's good reason for that because first thing is an operational database. The last thing you wanna do is slow it down with very complex analytics. On the other hand, there's huge value to be had if you would, if you could, you know, turn, let's say a smart, if you can turn, let's say an operational database or a transaction database into a smart transaction database. In other words, for instance, you know, let's say if you're, you're, you're doing, you know, an eCommerce site and a customer has made an order, that's basically been out of the norm. Whether it be like, you know, good or bad, it would be nice. Basically, if at that point you could then have a next best action, which is where analytics comes in. But it's a very lightweight form of analytics. It's not gonna, it's actually, I think probably the best metaphor for this is real time credit scoring. It's not that they're doing your scoring you in real time. It's that the model has been computed offline so that when you come on in real time, it can make a smart decision. >>Got it. Okay. So, and I think it was your article where I, I wrote down some examples. Sure. Operational, you know, use cases, patient data. There's certainly retail. We had Forbes on earlier, right? Obviously, so very wide range of, of use cases for operational will, will Mongo, essentially, in your view, is it positioned to replace traditional R D BMS? >>Well, okay. That's a long that's, that's much, it's >>Sort of a loaded question, but >>That's, that's a very loaded question. I think that for certain cases, I think it will replace R D BMS, but I still, I mean, where I, where I depart from Mongo is I do not believe that they're going to replace all R D D BMSs. I think, for instance, like when you're doing financial transactions, you know, the world has been used to table, you know, you know, columns and rows and tables. That's, it's a natural form for something that's very structured like that. On the other hand, when you take a look, let's say OT data, or you're taking a look at home listings that tends to more naturally represent itself as documents. And so there's a, so it's kind of like documents are the way that let's say you normally see the world. Relational is the way that you would structure the world. >>Okay. Well, I like that. So, but I mean, in the early days, obviously, and even to this day, it's like the target for Mongo has been Oracle. Yeah. Right, right. And so, and then, you know, you talk to a lot of Oracle customers as do I sure. And they are running the most mission, critical applications in the world, and it's like banking and financial and so many. And, and, and, you know, they've kind of carved out that space, but are we, should we be rethinking the definition of, of mission critical? Is that changing? >>Well, number one, I think what we've traditionally associated mission critical systems with is our financial transaction systems and to a less, and also let's say systems that schedule operations. But the fact is there are many forms of operations where for instance, let's say you're in a social network, do you need to have that very latest update? Or, you know, basically, can you go off, let's say like, you know, a server that's eventually consistent. In other words, the, do you absolutely have, you know, it's just like when you go on Twitter, do you naturally see all the latest tweets? It's not the system's not gonna crash for that reason. Whereas let's say if you're doing it, you know, let's say an ATM banking ATM system, that system better be current. So I think there's a delineation. The fact is, is that in a social network, arguably that operational system is mission critical, but it's mission critical in a different way from a, you know, from, let's say a banking system. >>So coming back to this idea of, of this hybrid, I think, you know, I think Gartner calls it H tab hybrid, transactional analytics >>Is changed by >>The minute, right. I mean, you mentioned that in, in your article, but basically it's bringing analytics to transactions bringing those, those roles together. Right. Right. And you're saying with Mongo, it's, it's lightweight now take, you use two other examples in your article, my SQL heat wave. Right. I think you had a Google example as well, DB, those are, you're saying much, much heavier analytics, is that correct? Or >>I we'll put it this way. I think they're because they're coming from a relational background. And because they also are coming from companies that already have, you know, analytic database or data warehouses, if you will, that their analytic, you know, capabilities are gonna be much more fully rounded than what Mongo has at this point. It's not a criticism of a Mongo MongoDB per >>Per, is that by design though? Or ne not necessarily. Is that a function of maturity? >>I think it's function of maturity. Oh, okay. I mean, look, to a certain extent, it's also a function of design in terms of that the document model is a little, it's not impossible to basically model it for analytics, but it takes more, you know, transformation to, to decide which, you know, let's say field in that document is gonna be a column. >>Now, the big thing about some of these other, these hybrid systems is, is eliminating the need for two databases, right? Eliminating the need for, you know, complex ETL. Is, is that a value proposition that will emerge with, with Mongo in your view? >>You know, I, I mean, put it this way. I think that if you take a look at how they've, how Mongo is basically has added more function to its operations, someone talking about analytics here, for instance, adding streaming, you know, adding, adding, search, adding time series, that's a matter of like where they've eliminated the need to do, you know, transformation ETL, but that's not for analytics per se for analytics. I think through, you know, I mean through replication, there's still gonna be some transformation in terms of turning, let's say data, that's, that's formed in a document into something that's represented by columns. There is a form of transformation, you know, so that said, and Mongo is already, you know, it has some NA you know, nascent capability there, but it's all, but this is still like at a rev 1.0 level, you know, I expect a lot more >>Of so refin you, how Amazon says in the fullness of time, all workloads will be in the cloud. And we could certainly debate that. What do we mean by cloud? So, but there's a sort of analog for Mongo that I'll ask you in the fullness of time, will Mongo be in a position to replace data warehouses or data lakes? No. Or, or, or, and we know the answer is no. So that's of course, yeah. But are these two worlds on a quasi collision course? I think they >>More on a convergence course or the collision course, because number one is I said, the first principle and operational database is the last thing you wanna do is slow it down. And to do all this complex modeling that let's say that you would do in a data bricks, or very complex analytics that you would do in a snowflake that is going to get, you know, you know, no matter how much you partition the load, you know, in Atlas, and yes, you can have separate nodes. The fact is you really do not wanna burden the operational database with that. And that's not what it's meant for, but what it is meant for is, you know, can I make a smart decision on the spot? In other words, kinda like close the loop on that. And so therefore there's a, a form of lightweight analytic that you can perform in there. And actually that's also the same principle, you know, on which let's say for instance, you know, my SQL heat wave and Allo DBR based on, they're not, they're predicated on, they're not meant to replace, you know, whether it be exit data or big query, the idea there is to do more of the lightweight stuff, you know, and keep the database, you know, keep the operations, you know, >>Operating. And, but from a practitioner's standpoint, I, I, I can and should isolate you're saying that node, right. That's what they'll do. Sure. How does that affect cuz my understanding is that that the Mon Mongo specifically, but I think document databases generally will have a primary node. Right? And then you can set up secondary nodes, which then you have to think about availability, but, but would that analytic node be sort of fenced off? Is that part of the >>Well, that's actually what they're, they've already, I mean, they already laid the groundwork for it last year, by saying that you can set up separate nodes and dedicate them to analytics and what they've >>As, as a primary, >>Right? Yes, yes. For analytics and what they've added, what they're a, what they are adding this year is the fact to say like that separate node does not have to be the same instance class, you know, as, as, as, as the, >>What, what does that mean? Explain >>That in other words, it's a, you know, you could have BA you know, for instance, you could have a node for operations, that's basically very eye ops intensive, whereas you could have a node let's say for analytics that might be more compute intensive or, or more he, or, or more heavily, you know, configured with, with memory per se. And so the idea here is you can tailor in a node to the workload. So that's, you know what they're saying with, you know, and I forget what they're calling it, but the idea that you can have a different type, you can specify a different type of node, a different type of instance for the analytic node, I think is, you know, is a major step forward >>And that, and that that's enabled by the cloud and architecture. >>Of course. Yes. I mean, we're separating, compute from data is, is, is the starter. And so yeah. Then at that point you can then start to, you know, you know, to go less vanilla. I think, you know, the re you know, the, you know, the, I guess the fruition of this is going to be when they say, okay, you can run your, let's say your operational nodes, you know, dedicated, but we'll let you run your analytic nodes serverless. Can't do it yet, but I've gotta believe that's on the roadmap. >>Yeah. So seq brings a lot of overhead. So you get MQL, but now square this circle for me, cuz now you got Mago talking sequel. >>They had to start doing that some time. I mean, and I it's been a court take I've had from them from the, from the get go, which I said, I understand that you're looking at this as an alternative to SQL and that's perfectly valid, but don't deny the validity of SQL or the reason why we, you know, we need it. The fact is that you have, okay, the number, you know, according to Ty index, JavaScript is the seventh, most popular language. Most SQL follows closely behind at the ninth, most popular language you don't want to cl. And the fact is those people exist in the enterprise and they're, and they're disproportionately concentrated in analytics. I mean, you know, it's getting a little less, so now we're seeing like, you know, basically, you know, Python, the programmatic, but still, you know, a lot of sequel expertise there. It does not make, it makes no sense for Mongo to, to, to ignore or to overlook that audience. I think now they're, you know, you know, they're taking baby steps to start, you know, reaching out to them. >>It's interesting. You see it going both ways. See Oracle announces a Mongo, DB, Mongo. I mean, it's just convergence. You called it not, I love collisions, you know, >>I know it's like, because you thrive on drama and I thrive on can't. We all love each other, but you know, act. But the thing is actually, I've been, I wrote about this. I forget when I think it was like 2014 or 2016. It's when we, I was noticed I was noting basically the, you know, the rise of all these specialized databases and probably Amazon, you know, AWS is probably the best exemplar of that. I've got 15 or 16 or however, number of databases and they're all dedicated purpose. Right. But I also was, you know, basically saw that inevitably there was gonna be some overlap. It's not that all databases were gonna become one and the same we're gonna be, we're gonna become back into like the, you know, into a pan G continent or something like that. But that you're gonna have a relational database that can do JSON and, and a, and a document database that can do relational. I mean, you know, it's, to me, that's a no brainer. >>So I asked Andy Ja one time, I'd love to get your take on this, about those, you know, multiple data stores at the time. They probably had a thousand. I think they're probably up to 15 now, right? Different APIs, different S et cetera. And his response. I said, why don't you make it easier for, for customers and maybe build an abstraction or converge these? And he said, well, it's by design. What if you buy this? And, and what your thoughts are, cuz I, you know, he's a pretty straight shooter. Yeah. It's by design because it allows us as the market moves, we can move with it. And if we, if we give developers access to those low level primitives and APIs, then they can move with, with at market speed. Right. And so that again, by design, now we heard certainly Mongo poo pooing that today they didn't mention, they didn't call out Amazon. Yeah. Oracle has no compunction about specifically calling out Amazon. They do it all the time. What do you make of that? Can't Amazon have its cake and eat it too. In other words, extend some of the functionality of those specific databases without going to the Swiss army. >>I I'll put it this way. You, you kind of tapped in you're, you're sort of like, you know, killing me softly with your song there, which is that, you know, I was actually kind of went on a rant about this, actually know in, you know, come, you know, you know, my year ahead sort of out predictions. And I said, look, cloud folks, it's great that you're making individual SAS, you know, products easy to use. But now that I have to mix and match SAS products, you know, the burden of integration is on my shoulders. Start making my life easier. I think a good, you know, a good example of this would be, you know, for instance, you could take something like, you know, let's say like a Google big query. There's no reason why I can't have a piece of that that might, you know, might be paired, say, you know, say with span or something like that. >>The idea being is that if we're all working off a common, you know, common storage, we, you know, it's in cloud native, we can separate the computer engines. It means that we can use the right engine for the right part of the task. And the thing is that maybe, you know, myself as a consumer, I should not have to be choosing between big query and span. But the thing is, I should be able to say, look, I want to, you know, globally distribute database, but I also wanna do some analytics and therefore behind the scenes, you know, new microservices, it could connect the two wouldn't >>Microsoft synapse be an example of doing that. >>It should be an example. I wish I, I would love to hear more from Microsoft about this. They've been radio silent for about the past two or three years in data. You hardly hear about it, but synapse is actually those actually one of the ideas I had in mind now keep in mind that with synapse, you're not talking about, let's say, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously a sequel data warehouse. It's not pure spark. It's basically their, it was their curated version of spark, but that's fine. But again, I would love to hear Microsoft talk more about that. They've been very quiet. >>Yeah. You, you, the intent is there to >>Simplify >>It exactly. And create an abstraction. Exactly. Yeah. They have been quiet about it. Yeah. Yeah. You would expect that, that maybe they're still trying to figure it out. So what's your prognosis from Mongo? I mean, since this company IP, you know, usually I, I tell and I tell everybody this, especially my kids, like don't buy a stock at IPO. You'll always get a better chance at a cheaper price to buy it. Yeah. And even though that was true with Mongo, you didn't have a big window. No. Like you did, for instance, with, with Facebook, certainly that's been the case with snowflake and sure. Alibaba, I mean, I name a zillion style was almost universal. Yeah. But, but since that, that, that first, you know, few months, period, this, this company has been on a roll. Right. And it, it obviously has been some volatility, but the execution has been outstanding. >>No question about that. I mean, the thing is, look what I, what I, and I'm just gonna talk on the product side on the sales side. Yeah. But on the product side, from the get go, they made a product that was easy for developers. Whereas let's say someone's giving an example, for instance, Cosmo CB, where to do certain operations. They had to go through multiple services in, you know, including Azure portal with Atlas, it's all within Atlas. So they've really, it's been kinda like design thinking from the start initially with, with the core Mongo DB, you know, you, the on premise, both this predates Atlas, I mean, part of it was that they were coming with a language that developers knew was just Javas script. The construct that they knew, which was JS on. So they started with that home core advantage, but they weren't the only ones doing that. But they did it with tooling that was very intuitive to developers that met developers, where they lived and what I give them, you know, then additional credit for is that when they went to the cloud and it wasn't an immediate thing, Atlas was not an overnight success, but they employed that same design thinking to Atlas, they made Atlas a good cloud experience. They didn't just do a lift and shift the cloud. And so that's why today basically like five or six years later, Atlas's most of their business. >>Yeah. It's what, 60% of the business now. Yeah. And then Dave, on the, on the earning scholar, maybe it wasn't Dave and somebody else in response to question said, yeah, ultimately this is the future will be be 90% of the business. I'm not gonna predict when. So my, my question is, okay, so let's call that the midterm midterm ATLA is gonna be 90% of the business with some exceptions that people just won't move to the cloud. What's next is the edge. A new opportunity is Mongo architecturally suited for the, I mean, it's certainly suited for the right, the home Depot store. Sure. You know, at the edge. Yeah. If you, if you consider that edge, which I guess it is form of edge, but how about the far edge EVs cell towers, you know, far side, real time, AI inferencing, what's the requirement there, can Mongo fit there? Any thoughts >>On that? I think the AI and the inferencing stuff is interesting. It's something which really Mongo has not tackled yet. I think we take the same principle, which is the lightweight stuff. In other words, you'll say, do let's say a classification or a prediction or some sort of prescriptive action in other words, where you're not doing some convolution, neural networking and trying to do like, you know, text, text to voice or, or, or vice versa. Well, you're not trying to do all that really fancy stuff. I think that's, you know, if you're keeping it SIM you know, kinda like the kiss principle, I think that's very much within Mongo's future. I think with the realm they have, they basically have the infrastructure to go out to the edge. I think with the fact that they've embraced GraphQL has also made them a lot more extensible. So I think they certainly do have, you know, I, I do see the edge as being, you know, you know, in, in, you know, in their, in their pathway. I do see basically lightweight analytics and lightweight, let's say machine learning definitely in their >>Future. And, but, and they would, would you agree that they're in a better position to tap that opportunity than say a snowflake or an Oracle now maybe M and a can change that. R D can maybe change that, but fundamentally from an architectural standpoint yeah. Are they in a better position? >>Good question. I think that that Mongo snowflake by virtual fact, I mean that they've been all, you know, all cloud start off with, I think makes it more difficult, not impossible to move out to the edge, but it means that, and I, and know, and I, and I said, they're really starting to making some tentative moves in that direction. I'm looking forward to next week to, you know, seeing what, you know, hearing what we're gonna, what they're gonna be saying about that. But I do think, right. You know, you know, to answer your question directly, I'd say like right now, I'd say Mongo probably has a, you know, has a head start there. >>I'm losing track of time. I could go forever with you. Tony bear DB insight with tons of insights. Thanks so much for coming back with. >>It's only one insight insight, Dave. Good to see you again. All >>Right. Good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Keep it right there. Right back at the Java center, Mongo DB world 2022, you're watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with Amanda Silver, corporate vice president, product developer division at Microsoft. Amanda, Great to see you you were on last year, Dr khan. Great to see you again a full year later were remote. Thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy with build happening this week as well. Thanks for making the time to come on the cube for Dr khan. >>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm joining you like many developers around the globe from my personal home office, >>developers really didn't skip a beat during the pandemic and again, it was not a good situation but developers, as you talked about last year on the front lines, first responders to creating value quite frankly, looking back you were pretty accurate in your prediction, developers did have an impact this year. They did create the kind of change that really changed the game for people's lives, whether it was developing solutions from a medical standpoint or even keeping systems running from call centres to making sure people got their their their goods or services and checks and and and kept sanity together. So. >>Yeah absolutely. I mean I think I think developers you know get the M. V. P. Award for this year because you know at the end of the day they are the digital first responders to the first responders and the pivot that we've had to make over the past year in terms of supporting remote telehealth, supporting you know online retail, curbside pickup. All of these things were done through developers being the ones pushing the way forward remote learning. You know my kids are learning at home right behind me right now so you might hear them during the interview that's happening because developers made that happen. >>I don't think mom please stop hogging the band with, they've got a gigabit. Stop it. Don't be streaming. My kids are all game anyway, Hey, great to have you on and you have to get the great keynote, exciting to see you guys continue the collaboration with Docker uh with GIT hub and Microsoft, A great combination, it's a 123 power punch of value. You guys are really kind of killing it. We heard from scott and dan has been on the cube. What's your thoughts on the partnership with the developer division team at Microsoft with Doctor, What's it all about this year? What's the next level? >>Well, I mean, I think, I think what's really awesome about this partnership is that we all have, we all are basically sharing a common mission. What we want to do is make sure that we're empowering developers, that we're focused on their productivity and that we're delivering value to them so they can do their job better so that they can help others. So that's really kind of what drives us day in and day out. So what we focus on is developer productivity. And I think that's a lot of what dana was talking about in her session, the developer division. Specifically, we really try to make sure that we're improving the state of the art from modern developers. So we want to make sure that every keystroke that they take, every mouse move that they make, it sounds like a song but every every one of those matter because we want to make sure that every developers writing the code that only they can write and in terms of the partnership and how that's going. You know my team and the darker team have been collaborating a ton on things like dr desktop and the Doctor Cli tool integrations. And one of the things that we do is we think about pain points and various workflows. We want to make sure that we're shaving off the edges of all of the user experience is the developers have to go through to piece all of these applications together. So one of the big pain points that we have heard from developers is that signing into the Azure cloud and especially our sovereign clouds was challenging. So we contributed back to uh back to doctor to actually make it easier to sign into these clouds. And so dr developers can now use dr desktop and the Doctor Cli to actually change the doctor context so that its Azure. So that makes it a lot easier to connect the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just >>going to say, I love the reference of the police song. Every breath you take, every >>mouth moving. Great, >>great line there. Uh, but I want to ask you while you're on this modern cloud um, discussion, what is I mean we have a lot of developers here at dr khan. As you know, you guys know developers in your ecosystem in core competency. From Microsoft, Kublai khan is a very operator like focus developed. This is a developer conference. You guys have build, what is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? Could you just share your thoughts because this comes up a lot. You know, what's through the art? What's next jan new guard guard? It's his legacy. What is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? >>Fantastic question. And extraordinarily relevant to this particular conference. You know what I think about often times it's really what is the inner loop and the outer loop look like in terms of cycle times? Because at the end of the day, what matters is the time that it takes for you to make that code change, to be able to see it in your test environment and to be able to deploy it to production and have the confidence that it's delivering the feature set that you need it to. And it's, you know, it's secure, it's reliable, it's performance, that's what a developer cares about at the end of the day. Um, at the same time, we also need to make sure that we're growing our team to meet our demand, which means we're constantly on boarding new developers. And so what I take inspiration from our, some of the tech elite who have been able to invest significant amounts in, in tuning their engineering systems, they've been able to make it so that a new developer can join a team in just a couple of minutes or less that they can actually make a code change, see that be reflected in their application in just a few seconds and deploy with confidence within hours. And so our goal is to actually be able to take that state of the art metric and democratize that actually bring it to as many of our customers as we possibly can. >>You mentioned supply chain earlier in securing that. What are you guys doing with Docker and how to make that partnership better with registries? Is there any update there in terms of the container registry on Azure? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we we have definitely seen recent events and and it almost seems like a never ending attacks that that you know, increasingly are getting more and more focused on developer watering holes is how we think about it. Kind of developers being a primary target um for these malicious hackers. And so what it's more important than ever that every developer um and Microsoft especially uh really take security extraordinarily seriously. Our engineers are working around the clock to make sure that we are responding to every security incident that we hear about and partnering with our customers to make sure that we're supporting them as well. One of the things that we announced earlier this week at Microsoft build is that we've actually taken, get have actions and we've now integrated that into the Azure Security Center. And so what this means is that, you know, we can now do things like scan for vulnerabilities. Um look at things like who is logging in, where things like that and actually have that be tracked in the Azure security center so that not just your developers get that notification but also your I. T. Operations. Um In terms of the partnership with dR you know, this is actually an ongoing partnership to make sure that we can provide more guidance to developers to make sure that they are following best practices like pulling from a private registry like Docker hub or at your container registry. So I expect that as time goes on will continue to more in partnership in this space >>and that's going to give a lot of confidence. Actually, productivity wise is going to be a big help for developers. Great stuff is always good, good progress. They're moving the needle. >>Last time we >>spoke we talked about tools and setting Azure as the doctor context duty tooling updates here at dot com this year. That's notable. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one major thing that we've been working on which has a big dependency on docker is get help. Code space is now one of the biggest pain points that developers have is setting up a new DEV box, which they often have to do when they are on boarding a new employee or when they're starting a new project or even if they're just kicking the tires on a new technology that they want to be able to evaluate and sometimes creating a developer environment can actually take hours um and especially when you're trying to create a developer environment that matches somebody else's developer environment that can take like a half a day and you can spend all of your time just debugging the differences in environment variables, for example, um, containers actually makes that much easier. So what you can do with this, this services, you can actually create death environment spun up in the cloud and you can access it in seconds and you get from there are working coding environment and a runtime environment and this is repeatable via containers. So it means that there's no inadvertent differences introduced by each DEV. And you might be interested to know that underneath this is actually using Docker files and dr composed to orchestrate the debits and the runtime bits for a whole bunch of different stacks. And so this is something that we're actually working on in collaboration with the with the doctor team to have a common the animal format. And in fact this week we actually introduced a couple of app templates so that everybody can see this all in action. So if you check out a ca dot m s forward slash app template, you can see this in action yourself. >>You guys have always had such a strong developer community and one thing I love about cloud as it brings more agility, as we always talk about. But when you start to see the enterprise grow into, the direction is going now, it's almost like the developer communities are emerging, it's no longer about all the Lennox folks here and the dot net folks there, you've got windows, you've got cloud, >>it's almost >>the the the solidification of everyone kind of coming together. Um and visual studio, for instance, last year, I think you were talking about that to having to be interrogated dr composed, et cetera. >>How do you see >>this melting pot emerging? Because at the end of the day, you pick the language you love and you got devops, which is infrastructure as code doesn't matter. So give us your take on where we are with that whole progress of of making that happen. >>Well, I mean I definitely think that, you know, developer environments and and kind of, you know, our approach to them don't need to be as dogmatic as they've been in the past. I really think that, you know, you can pick the right tool and language and stand developer stack for your team, for your experience and you can be productive and that's really our goal. And Microsoft is to make sure that we have tools for every developer and every team so that they can build any app that they want to want to create. Even if that means that they're actually going to end up ultimately deploying that not to our cloud, they're going to end up deploying it to AWS or another another competitive cloud. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been doing to make that really much easier. We have integrated container tools in visual studio and visual studio code and better cli integrations like with the doctor context that we had talked about a little bit earlier. We continue to try to make it easier to build applications that are targeting containers and then once you create those containers it's much easier to take it to another environment. One of the examples of this kind of work is now that we have WsL and the Windows subsystem for Lennox. This makes it a lot easier for developers who prefer a Windows operating system as their environment and maybe some tools like Visual Studio that run on Windows, but they can still target Lennox with as their production environment without any impedance mismatch. They can actually be as productive as they would be if they had a Linux box as their Os >>I noticed on this session, I got to call this out. I want to get your reaction to it interesting. Selection of Microsoft talks, the container based development. Visual studio code is one that's where you're going to show some some some container action going on with note and Visual Studio code. And then you get the machine learning with Azure uh containers in the V. S. Code. Interesting how you got, you know, containers with V. S. And now you've got machine learning. What does that tell the world about where Microsoft's at? Because in a way you got the cutting edge container management on one side with the doctor integration. Now you get the machine learning which everyone's talking about shifting, left more automation. Why are these sessions so important? Why should people attend? And what's the what's the bottom line? >>Well, like I said, like containers basically empower developer productivity. Um that's what creates the reputable environments, that's what allows us to make sure that, you know, we're productive as soon as we possibly can be with any text act that we want to be able to target. Um and so that's kind of almost the ecosystem play. Um it's how every developer can contribute to the success of others and we can amor ties the kinds of work that we do to set up an environment. So that's what I would say about the container based development that we're doing with both visual studio and visual studio code. Um in terms of the machine learning development, uh you know, the number of machine learning developers in the world is relatively small, but it's growing and it's obviously a very important set of developers because to train a machine learning uh to train an ml model, it actually requires a significant amount of compute resources, and so that's a perfect opportunity to bring in the research that are in a public cloud. Um What's actually really interesting about that particular develop developer stack is that it commonly runs on things like python. And for those of you who have developed in python, you know, just how difficult it is to actually set up a python environment with the right interpreter, with the right run time, with the right libraries that can actually get going super quickly, um and you can be productive as a developer. And so it's actually one of the hardest, most challenging developer stacks to actually set up. And so this allows you to become a machine learning developer without having to spend all of your time just setting up the python runtime environment. >>Yeah, it's a nice, nice little call out on python, it's a double edged sword. It's easier to sling code around on one hand, when you start getting working then you gotta it gets complicated can get well. Um Well the great, great call out there on the island, but good, good, good project. Let me get your thoughts on this other tool that you guys are talking about project tie. Uh This is interesting because this is a trend that we're seeing a lot of conversations here on the cube about around more too many control planes. Too many services. You know, I no longer have that monolithic application. I got micro micro applications with microservices. What the hell is going on with my services? >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, containers brought an incredible amount of productivity in terms of having repeatable environments, both for dev environments, which we talked about a lot on this interview already, but also obviously in production and test environments. Super important. Um and with that a lot of times comes the microservices architecture that we're also moving to and the way that I view it is the microservices architecture is actually accompanied by businesses being more focused on the value that they can actually deliver to customers. And so they're trying to kind of create separations of concerns in terms of the different services that they're offering, so they can actually version and and kind of, you know, actually improve each of these services independently. But what happens when you start to have many microservices working together in a SAS or in some kind of aggregate um service environment or kind of application environment is it starts to get unwieldy, it's really hard to make it so that one micro service can actually address another micro service. They can pass information back and forth. And you know what used to be maybe easy if you were just building a client server application because, you know, within the server tear all of your code was basically contained in the same runtime environment. That's no longer the case when every microservices actually running inside of its own container. So the question is, how can we improve program ability by making it easier for one micro service that's being used in an application environment, be to be able to access another another service and kind of all of that context. Um and so, you know, you want to be able to access the service is the the api endpoint, the containers, the ingress is everything, make everything work together as though it felt just as easy as as um you know, server application development. Um And so what this means as well is that you also oftentimes need to get all of these different containers running at the same time and that can actually be a challenge in the developer and test loop as well. So what project tie does is it improves the program ability and it actually allows you to just write a command like thai run so that you can actually in stan she ate all of these containers and get them up and running and basically deploy and run your application in that environment and ultimately make the dev testing or loop much faster >>than productivity gain. Right. They're making it simple to stand up. Great, great stuff. Let me ask you a question as we kind of wrap down here for the folks here at Dakar Con, are >>there any >>special things you'd like to talk about the development you think are important for the developers here within this space? It's very dynamic. A lot of change happening in a good way. Um, but >>sometimes it's hard to keep >>track of all the cool stuff happening. Could you take a minute to, to share your thoughts on what you think are the most important develops developments in this space? That that might be interesting to ducker con attendees. >>I think the most important things are to recognize that developer environments are moving to containerized uh, environments themselves so that they can be repeated, they can be shared, the work, configuring them can be amortized across many developers. That's important thing. Number one important thing. Number two is it doesn't matter as much what operating system you're running as your chrome, you know, desktop. What matters is ultimately the production environment that you're targeting. And so I think now we're in a world where all of those things can be mixed and matched together. Um and then I think the next thing is how can we actually improve microservices, uh programming development together um so that it's easier to be able to target multiple micro services that are working in aggregate uh to create a single service experience or a single application. And how do we improve the program ability for that? >>You know, you guys have been great supporters of DACA and the community and open source and software developers as they transform and become quite frankly the superheroes for the transformation, which is re factoring businesses. So this has been a big thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on how this is all coming together inside Microsoft, you've got your division, you get the developer division, you got GIT hub, got Azure. Um, and then just historically, and he put this up last year army of an ecosystem. People who have been contributing encoding with Microsoft and the partners for many, many decades. >>Yes. The >>heart Microsoft now, how's it all working? What's the news? I get Lincoln, Lincoln, but there's no yet developer model there yet, but probably is soon. >>Um Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty broad question, but in some ways I think it's interesting to put it in the context of Microsoft's history. You know, I think when I think back to the beginning of my career, it was kind of a one stack shop, you know, we was all about dot net and you know, of course we want to dot net to be the best developer environment that it can possibly be. We still actually want that. We still want that need to be the most productive developer environment. It could we could possibly build. Um but at the same time, I think we have to recognize that not all developers or dot net developers and we want to make sure that Azure is the most productive cloud for developers and so to do that, we have to make sure that we're building fantastic tools and platforms to host java applications, javascript applications, no Js applications, python applications, all of those things, you know, all of these developers in the world, we want to make sure it can be productive on our tools and our platforms and so, you know, I think that's really kind of the key of you know what you're speaking of because you know, when I think about the partnership that I have with the GIT hub team or with the Azure team or with the Azure Machine learning team or the Lincoln team, um A lot of it actually comes down to helping empower developers, improving their productivity, helping them find new developers to collaborate with, um making sure that they can do that securely and confidently and they can basically respond to their customers as quickly as they possibly can. Um and when, when we think about partnering inside of Microsoft with folks like linkedin or office as an example, a lot of our partnership with them actually comes down to improving their colleagues efficiency. We build the developer tools that office and lengthen are built on top of and so every once in a while we will make an improvement that has, you know, 5% here, 3% there and it turns into an incredible amount of impact in terms of operations, costs for running these services. >>It's interesting. You mentioned earlier, I think there's a time now we're living in a time where you don't have to be dogmatic anymore, you can pick what you like and go with it. Also that you also mentioned just now this idea of distributed applications, distributed computing. You know, distributed applications and microservices go really well together. Especially with doctor. >>Can you share >>your thoughts on the framework that you guys released called Dapper? >>Yeah, yeah. We recently released Dapper. It's called D A P R. You can look it up on GIT hub and it's a programming model for common microservices pattern, two common microservices patterns that make it really easy and automatic to create those kinds of microservices. So you can choose to work with your favorite state stores or databases or pub sub components and get things like cloud events for free. You can choose either http or g R B C so that you can get mesh capabilities like service discovery and re tries and you can bring your own secret store and easily be able to call it from any environment variable. It's also like I was talking about earlier, multi lingual. Um so you don't need to embrace dot net, for example, as you're programming language to be able to benefit from Dapper, it actually supports many programming languages and Dapper itself is actually written and go. Um and so, you know, all developers can benefit from something like Dapper to make it easier to create microservices applications. >>I mean, always great to have you on great update. Take a minute to give an update on what's going on with your division. I know you had to build conference this week. V. S has got the new preview title. We just talked about what are the things you want to get to plug in for? Take a minute to get to plug in for what you're working on, your goals, your objectives hiring, give us the update. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we we built integrated container tools in visual studio uh and the Doctor extension and Visual Studio code and cli extensions. Uh and you know, even in this most recent release of our Visual Studio product, Visual Studio 16 10, we added some features to make it easier to use DR composed better. So one of the examples of this is that you can actually have uh Oftentimes you need to be able to use multiple doctor composed files together so that you can actually configure various different container environments for a single single application. But it's hard sometimes to create the right Yeah. My file so that you can actually invoke it and invoke the the container and the micro services that you need. And so what this allows you to do is to actually have just a menu of the different doctor composed files so that you can select the runtime and test environment that you need for the subset of the portion of the application that you're working on at the end of the day. This is always about developer productivity. You know, like I said, every keystroke matters. Um and we want to make sure that you as a developer can focus on the code that only you can Right. >>Amanda Silver, corporate vice president product development division of Microsoft. Always great to see you and chat with you remotely soon. We'll be back in in real life with real events soon as we come out of the pandemic and thanks for sharing your insight and congratulations on your success this year and and congratulations on your announcement here at Dakar Gone. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>Okay Cube coverage for Dunkirk on 2021. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>> Sue: Hello everybody. Thank you for joining us today for the Virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session in entitled Extending Vertica with the Latest Vertica Ecosystem and Open Source Initiatives. My name is Sue LeClaire, Director of Marketing at Vertica and I'll be your host for this webinar. Joining me is Tom Wall, a member of the Vertica engineering team. But before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait. Just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click submit. There will be a Q and A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions that we don't get to, we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively, you can visit the Vertica forums to post you questions after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going. Also a reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to view on demand later this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. So let's get started. Tom, over to you. >> Tom: Hello everyone and thanks for joining us today for this talk. My name is Tom Wall and I am the leader of Vertica's ecosystem engineering team. We are the team that focuses on building out all the developer tools, third party integrations that enables the SoftMaker system that surrounds Vertica to thrive. So today, we'll be talking about some of our new open source initatives and how those can be really effective for you and make things easier for you to build and integrate Vertica with the rest of your technology stack. We've got several new libraries, integration projects and examples, all open source, to share, all being built out in the open on our GitHub page. Whether you use these open source projects or not, this is a very exciting new effort that will really help to grow the developer community and enable lots of exciting new use cases. So, every developer out there has probably had to deal with the problem like this. You have some business requirements, to maybe build some new Vertica-powered application. Maybe you have to build some new system to visualize some data that's that's managed by Vertica. The various circumstances, lots of choices will might be made for you that constrain your approach to solving a particular problem. These requirements can come from all different places. Maybe your solution has to work with a specific visualization tool, or web framework, because the business has already invested in the licensing and the tooling to use it. Maybe it has to be implemented in a specific programming language, since that's what all the developers on the team know how to write code with. While Vertica has many different integrations with lots of different programming language and systems, there's a lot of them out there, and we don't have integrations for all of them. So how do you make ends meet when you don't have all the tools you need? All you have to get creative, using tools like PyODBC, for example, to bridge between programming languages and frameworks to solve the problems you need to solve. Most languages do have an ODBC-based database interface. ODBC is our C-Library and most programming languages know how to call C code, somehow. So that's doable, but it often requires lots of configuration and troubleshooting to make all those moving parts work well together. So that's enough to get the job done but native integrations are usually a lot smoother and easier. So rather than, for example, in Python trying to fight with PyODBC, to configure things and get Unicode working, and to compile all the different pieces, the right way is to make it all work smoothly. It would be much better if you could just PIP install library and get to work. And with Vertica-Python, a new Python client library, you can actually do that. So that story, I assume, probably sounds pretty familiar to you. Sounds probably familiar to a lot of the audience here because we're all using Vertica. And our challenge, as Big Data practitioners is to make sense of all this stuff, despite those technical and non-technical hurdles. Vertica powers lots of different businesses and use cases across all kinds of different industries and verticals. While there's a lot different about us, we're all here together right now for this talk because we do have some things in common. We're all using Vertica, and we're probably also using Vertica with other systems and tools too, because it's important to use the right tool for the right job. That's a founding principle of Vertica and it's true today too. In this constantly changing technology landscape, we need lots of good tools and well established patterns, approaches, and advice on how to combine them so that we can be successful doing our jobs. Luckily for us, Vertica has been designed to be easy to build with and extended in this fashion. Databases as a whole had had this goal from the very beginning. They solve the hard problems of managing data so that you don't have to worry about it. Instead of worrying about those hard problems, you can focus on what matters most to you and your domain. So implementing that business logic, solving that problem, without having to worry about all of these intense, sometimes details about what it takes to manage a database at scale. With the declarative syntax of SQL, you tell Vertica what the answer is that you want. You don't tell Vertica how to get it. Vertica will figure out the right way to do it for you so that you don't have to worry about it. So this SQL abstraction is very nice because it's a well defined boundary where lots of developers know SQL, and it allows you to express what you need without having to worry about those details. So we can be the experts in data management while you worry about your problems. This goes beyond though, what's accessible through SQL to Vertica. We've got well defined extension and integration points across the product that allow you to customize this experience even further. So if you want to do things write your own SQL functions, or extend database softwares with UDXs, you can do so. If you have a custom data format that might be a proprietary format, or some source system that Vertica doesn't natively support, we have extension points that allow you to use those. To make it very easy to do passive, parallel, massive data movement, loading into Vertica but also to export Vertica to send data to other systems. And with these new features in time, we also could do the same kinds of things with Machine Learning models, importing and exporting to tools like TensorFlow. And it's these integration points that have enabled Vertica to build out this open architecture and a rich ecosystem of tools, both open source and closed source, of different varieties that solve all different problems that are common in this big data processing world. Whether it's open source, streaming systems like Kafka or Spark, or more traditional ETL tools on the loading side, but also, BI tools and visualizers and things like that to view and use the data that you keep in your database on the right side. And then of course, Vertica needs to be flexible enough to be able to run anywhere. So you can really take Vertica and use it the way you want it to solve the problems that you need to solve. So Vertica has always employed open standards, and integrated it with all kinds of different open source systems. What we're really excited to talk about now is that we are taking our new integration projects and making those open source too. In particular, we've got two new open source client libraries that allow you to build Vertica applications for Python and Go. These libraries act as a foundation for all kinds of interesting applications and tools. Upon those libraries, we've also built some integrations ourselves. And we're using these new libraries to power some new integrations with some third party products. Finally, we've got lots of new examples and reference implementations out on our GitHub page that can show you how to combine all these moving parts and exciting ways to solve new problems. And the code for all these things is available now on our GitHub page. And so you can use it however you like, and even help us make it better too. So the first such project that we have is called Vertica-Python. Vertica-Python began at our customer, Uber. And then in late 2018, we collaborated with them and we took it over and made Vertica-Python the first official open source client for Vertica You can use this to build your own Python applications, or you can use it via tools that were written in Python. Python has grown a lot in recent years and it's very common language to solve lots of different problems and use cases in the Big Data space from things like DevOps admission and Data Science or Machine Learning, or just homegrown applications. We use Python a lot internally for our own QA testing and automation needs. And with the Python 2 End Of Life, that happened at the end of 2019, it was important that we had a robust Python solution to help migrate our internal stuff off of Python 2. And also to provide a nice migration path for all of you our users that might be worried about the same problems with their own Python code. So Vertica-Python is used already for lots of different tools, including Vertica's admintools now starting with 9.3.1. It was also used by DataDog to build a Vertica-DataDog integration that allows you to monitor your Vertica infrastructure within DataDog. So here's a little example of how you might use the Python Client to do some some work. So here we open in connection, we run a query to find out what node we've connected to, and then we do a little DataLoad by running a COPY statement. And this is designed to have a familiar look and feel if you've ever used a Python Database Client before. So we implement the DB API 2.0 standard and it feels like a Python package. So that includes things like, it's part of the centralized package manager, so you can just PIP install this right now and go start using it. We also have our client for Go length. So this is called vertica-sql-go. And this is a very similar story, just in a different context or the different programming language. So vertica-sql-go, began as a collaboration with the Microsoft Focus SecOps Group who builds microfocus' security products some of which use vertica internally to provide some of those analytics. So you can use this to build your own apps in the Go programming language but you can also use it via tools that are written Go. So most notably, we have our Grafana integration, which we'll talk a little bit more about later, that leverages this new clients to provide Grafana visualizations for vertica data. And Go is another rising popularity programming language 'cause it offers an interesting balance of different programming design trade-offs. So it's got good performance, got a good current concurrency and memory safety. And we liked all those things and we're using it to power some internal monitoring stuff of our own. And here's an example of the code you can write with this client. So this is Go code that does a similar thing. It opens a connection, it runs a little test query, and then it iterates over those rows, processing them using Go data types. You get that native look and feel just like you do in Python, except this time in the Go language. And you can go get it the way you usually package things with Go by running that command there to acquire this package. And it's important to note here for the DC projects, we're really doing open source development. We're not just putting code out on our GitHub page. So if you go out there and look, you can see that you can ask questions, you can report bugs, you can submit poll requests yourselves and you can collaborate directly with our engineering team and the other vertica users out on our GitHub page. Because it's out on our GitHub page, it allows us to be a little bit faster with the way we ship and deliver functionality compared to the core vertica release cycle. So in 2019, for example, as we were building features to prepare for the Python 3 migration, we shipped 11 different releases with 40 customer reported issues, filed on GitHub. That was done over 78 different poll requests and with lots of community engagement as we do so. So lots of people are using this already, we see as our GitHub badge last showed with about 5000 downloads of this a day of people using it in their software. And again, we want to make this easy, not just to use but also to contribute and understand and collaborate with us. So all these projects are built using the Apache 2.0 license. The master branch is always available and stable with the latest creative functionality. And you can always build it and test it the way we do so that it's easy for you to understand how it works and to submit contributions or bug fixes or even features. It uses automated testing both for locally and with poll requests. And for vertica-python, it's fully automated with Travis CI. So we're really excited about doing this and we're really excited about where it can go in the future. 'Cause this offers some exciting opportunities for us to collaborate with you more directly than we have ever before. You can contribute improvements and help us guide the direction of these projects, but you can also work with each other to share knowledge and implementation details and various best practices. And so maybe you think, "Well, I don't use Python, "I don't use go so maybe it doesn't matter to me." But I would argue it really does matter. Because even if you don't use these tools and languages, there's lots of amazing vertica developers out there who do. And these clients do act as low level building blocks for all kinds of different interesting tools, both in these Python and Go worlds, but also well beyond that. Because these implementations and examples really generalize to lots of different use cases. And we're going to do a deeper dive now into some of these to understand exactly how that's the case and what you can do with these things. So let's take a deeper look at some of the details of what it takes to build one of these open source client libraries. So these database client interfaces, what are they exactly? Well, we all know SQL, but if you look at what SQL specifies, it really only talks about how to manipulate the data within the database. So once you're connected and in, you can run commands with SQL. But these database client interfaces address the rest of those needs. So what does the programmer need to do to actually process those SQL queries? So these interfaces are specific to a particular language or a technology stack. But the use cases and the architectures and design patterns are largely the same between different languages. They all have a need to do some networking and connect and authenticate and create a session. They all need to be able to run queries and load some data and deal with problems and errors. And then they also have a lot of metadata and Type Mapping because you want to use these clients the way you use those programming languages. Which might be different than the way that vertica's data types and vertica's semantics work. So some of this client interfaces are truly standards. And they are robust enough in terms of what they design and call for to support a truly pluggable driver model. Where you might write an application that codes directly against the standard interface, and you can then plug in a different database driver, like a JDBC driver, to have that application work with any database that has a JDBC driver. So most of these interfaces aren't as robust as a JDBC or ODBC but that's okay. 'Cause it's good as a standard is, every database is unique for a reason. And so you can't really expose all of those unique properties of a database through these standard interfaces. So vertica's unique in that it can scale to the petabytes and beyond. And you can run it anywhere in any environment, whether it's on-prem or on clouds. So surely there's something about vertica that's unique, and we want to be able to take advantage of that fact in our solutions. So even though these standards might not cover everything, there's often a need and common patterns that arise to solve these problems in similar ways. When there isn't enough of a standard to define those comments, semantics that different databases might have in common, what you often see is tools will invent plug in layers or glue code to compensate by defining application wide standard to cover some of these same semantics. Later on, we'll get into some of those details and show off what exactly that means. So if you connect to a vertica database, what's actually happening under the covers? You have an application, you have a need to run some queries, so what does that actually look like? Well, probably as you would imagine, your application is going to invoke some API calls and some client library or tool. This library takes those API calls and implements them, usually by issuing some networking protocol operations, communicating over the network to ask vertica to do the heavy lifting required for that particular API call. And so these API's usually do the same kinds of things although some of the details might differ between these different interfaces. But you do things like establish a connection, run a query, iterate over your rows, manage your transactions, that sort of thing. Here's an example from vertica-python, which just goes into some of the details of what actually happens during the Connect API call. And you can see all these details in our GitHub implementation of this. There's actually a lot of moving parts in what happens during a connection. So let's walk through some of that and see what actually goes on. I might have my API call like this where I say Connect and I give it a DNS name, which is my entire cluster. And I give you my connection details, my username and password. And I tell the Python Client to get me a session, give me a connection so I can start doing some work. Well, in order to implement this, what needs to happen? First, we need to do some TCP networking to establish our connection. So we need to understand what the request is, where you're going to connect to and why, by pressing the connection string. and vertica being a distributed system, we want to provide high availability, so we might need to do some DNS look-ups to resolve that DNS name which might be an entire cluster and not just a single machine. So that you don't have to change your connection string every time you add or remove nodes to the database. So we do some high availability and DNS lookup stuff. And then once we connect, we might do Load Balancing too, to balance the connections across the different initiator nodes in the cluster, or in a sub cluster, as needed. Once we land on the node we want to be at, we might do some TLS to secure our connections. And vertica supports the industry standard TLS protocols, so this looks pretty familiar for everyone who've used TLS anywhere before. So you're going to do a certificate exchange and the client might send the server certificate too, and then you going to verify that the server is who it says it is, so that you can know that you trust it. Once you've established that connection, and secured it, then you can start actually beginning to request a session within vertica. So you going to send over your user information like, "Here's my username, "here's the database I want to connect to." You might send some information about your application like a session label, so that you can differentiate on the database with monitoring queries, what the different connections are and what their purpose is. And then you might also send over some session settings to do things like auto commit, to change the state of your session for the duration of this connection. So that you don't have to remember to do that with every query that you have. Once you've asked vertica for a session, before vertica will give you one, it has to authenticate you. and vertica has lots of different authentication mechanisms. So there's a negotiation that happens there to decide how to authenticate you. Vertica decides based on who you are, where you're coming from on the network. And then you'll do an auth-specific exchange depending on what the auth mechanism calls for until you are authenticated. Finally, vertica trusts you and lets you in, so you going to establish a session in vertica, and you might do some note keeping on the client side just to know what happened. So you might log some information, you might record what the version of the database is, you might do some protocol feature negotiation. So if you connect to a version of the database that doesn't support all these protocols, you might decide to turn some functionality off and that sort of thing. But finally, after all that, you can return from this API call and then your connection is good to go. So that connection is just one example of many different APIs. And we're excited here because with vertica-python we're really opening up the vertica client wire protocol for the first time. And so if you're a low level vertica developer and you might have used Postgres before, you might know that some of vertica's client protocol is derived from Postgres. But they do differ in many significant ways. And this is the first time we've ever revealed those details about how it works and why. So not all Postgres protocol features work with vertica because vertica doesn't support all the features that Postgres does. Postgres, for example, has a large object interface that allows you to stream very wide data values over. Whereas vertica doesn't really have very wide data values, you have 30, you have long bar charts, but that's about as wide as you can get. Similarly, the vertica protocol supports lots of features not present in Postgres. So Load Balancing, for example, which we just went through an example of, Postgres is a single node system, it doesn't really make sense for Postgres to have Load Balancing. But Load Balancing is really important for vertica because it is a distributed system. Vertica-python serves as an open reference implementation of this protocol. With all kinds of new details and extension points that we haven't revealed before. So if you look at these boxes below, all these different things are new protocol features that we've implemented since August 2019, out in the open on our GitHub page for Python. Now, the vertica-sql-go implementation of these things is still in progress, but the core protocols are there for basic query operations. There's more to do there but we'll get there soon. So this is really cool 'cause not only do you have now a Python Client implementation, and you have a Go client implementation of this, but you can use this protocol reference to do lots of other things, too. The obvious thing you could do is build more clients for other languages. So if you have a need for a client in some other language that are vertica doesn't support yet, now you have everything available to solve that problem and to go about doing so if you need to. But beyond clients, it's also used for other things. So you might use it for mocking and testing things. So rather than connecting to a real vertica database, you can simulate some of that. You can also use it to do things like query routing and proxies. So Uber, for example, this log here in this link tells a great story of how they route different queries to different vertical clusters by intercepting these protocol messages, parsing the queries in them and deciding which clusters to send them to. So a lot of these things are just ideas today, but now that you have the source code, there's no limit in sight to what you can do with this thing. And so we're very interested in hearing your ideas and requests and we're happy to offer advice and collaborate on building some of these things together. So let's take a look now at some of the things we've already built that do these things. So here's a picture of vertica's Grafana connector with some data powered from an example that we have in this blog link here. So this has an internet of things use case to it, where we have lots of different sensors recording flight data, feeding into Kafka which then gets loaded into vertica. And then finally, it gets visualized nicely here with Grafana. And Grafana's visualizations make it really easy to analyze the data with your eyes and see when something something happens. So in these highlighted sections here, you notice a drop in some of the activity, that's probably a problem worth looking into. It might be a lot harder to see that just by staring at a large table yourself. So how does a picture like that get generated with a tool like Grafana? Well, Grafana specializes in visualizing time series data. And time can be really tricky for computers to do correctly. You got time zones, daylight savings, leap seconds, negative infinity timestamps, please don't ever use those. In every system, if it wasn't hard enough, just with those problems, what makes it harder is that every system does it slightly differently. So if you're querying some time data, how do we deal with these semantic differences as we cross these domain boundaries from Vertica to Grafana's back end architecture, which is implemented in Go on it's front end, which is implemented with JavaScript? Well, you read this from bottom up in terms of the processing. First, you select the timestamp and Vertica is timestamp has to be converted to a Go time object. And we have to reconcile the differences that there might be as we translate it. So Go time has a different time zone specifier format, and it also supports nanosecond precision, while Vertica only supports microsecond precision. So that's not too big of a deal when you're querying data because you just see some extra zeros, not fractional seconds. But on the way in, if we're loading data, we have to find a way to resolve those things. Once it's into the Go process, it has to be converted further to render in the JavaScript UI. So that there, the Go time object has to be converted to a JavaScript Angular JS Date object. And there too, we have to reconcile those differences. So a lot of these differences might just be presentation, and not so much the actual data changing, but you might want to choose to render the date into a more human readable format, like we've done in this example here. Here's another picture. This is another picture of some time series data, and this one shows you can actually write your own queries with Grafana to provide answers. So if you look closely here you can see there's actually some functions that might not look too familiar with you if you know vertica's functions. Vertica doesn't have a dollar underscore underscore time function or a time filter function. So what's actually happening there? How does this actually provide an answer if it's not really real vertica syntax? Well, it's not sufficient to just know how to manipulate data, it's also really important that you know how to operate with metadata. So information about how the data works in the data source, Vertica in this case. So Grafana needs to know how time works in detail for each data source beyond doing that basic I/O that we just saw in the previous example. So it needs to know, how do you connect to the data source to get some time data? How do you know what time data types and functions there are and how they behave? How do you generate a query that references a time literal? And finally, once you've figured out how to do all that, how do you find the time in the database? How do you do know which tables have time columns and then they might be worth rendering in this kind of UI. So Go's database standard doesn't actually really offer many metadata interfaces. Nevertheless, Grafana needs to know those answers. And so it has its own plugin layer that provides a standardizing layer whereby every data source can implement hints and metadata customization needed to have an extensible data source back end. So we have another open source project, the Vertica-Grafana data source, which is a plugin that uses Grafana's extension points with JavaScript and the front end plugins and also with Go in the back end plugins to provide vertica connectivity inside Grafana. So the way this works, is that the plugin frameworks defines those standardizing functions like time and time filter, and it's our plugin that's going to rewrite them in terms of vertica syntax. So in this example, time gets rewritten to a vertica cast. And time filter becomes a BETWEEN predicate. So that's one example of how you can use Grafana, but also how you might build any arbitrary visualization tool that works with data in Vertica. So let's now look at some other examples and reference architectures that we have out in our GitHub page. For some advanced integrations, there's clearly a need to go beyond these standards. So SQL and these surrounding standards, like JDBC, and ODBC, were really critical in the early days of Vertica, because they really enabled a lot of generic database tools. And those will always continue to play a really important role, but the Big Data technology space moves a lot faster than these old database data can keep up with. So there's all kinds of new advanced analytics and query pushdown logic that were never possible 10 or 20 years ago, that Vertica can do natively. There's also all kinds of data-oriented application workflows doing things like streaming data, or Parallel Loading or Machine Learning. And all of these things, we need to build software with, but we don't really have standards to go by. So what do we do there? Well, open source implementations make for easier integrations, and applications all over the place. So even if you're not using Grafana for example, other tools have similar challenges that you need to overcome. And it helps to have an example there to show you how to do it. Take Machine Learning, for example. There's been many excellent Machine Learning tools that have arisen over the years to make data science and the task of Machine Learning lot easier. And a lot of those have basic database connectivity, but they generally only treat the database as a source of data. So they do lots of data I/O to extract data from a database like Vertica for processing in some other engine. We all know that's not the most efficient way to do it. It's much better if you can leverage Vertica scale and bring the processing to the data. So a lot of these tools don't take full advantage of Vertica because there's not really a uniform way to go do so with these standards. So instead, we have a project called vertica-ml-python. And this serves as a reference architecture of how you can do scalable machine learning with Vertica. So this project establishes a familiar machine learning workflow that scales with vertica. So it feels similar to like a scickit-learn project except all the processing and aggregation and heavy lifting and data processing happens in vertica. So this makes for a much more lightweight, scalable approach than you might otherwise be used to. So with vertica-ml-python, you can probably use this yourself. But you could also see how it works. So if it doesn't meet all your needs, you could still see the code and customize it to build your own approach. We've also got lots of examples of our UDX framework. And so this is an older GitHub project. We've actually had this for a couple of years, but it is really useful and important so I wanted to plug it here. With our User Defined eXtensions framework or UDXs, this allows you to extend the operators that vertica executes when it does a database load or a database query. So with UDXs, you can write your own domain logic in a C++, Java or Python or R. And you can call them within the context of a SQL query. And vertica brings your logic to that data, and makes it fast and scalable and fault tolerant and correct for you. So you don't have to worry about all those hard problems. So our UDX examples, demonstrate how you can use our SDK to solve interesting problems. And some of these examples might be complete, total usable packages or libraries. So for example, we have a curl source that allows you to extract data from any curlable endpoint and load into vertica. We've got things like an ODBC connector that allows you to access data in an external database via an ODBC driver within the context of a vertica query, all kinds of parsers and string processors and things like that. We also have more exciting and interesting things where you might not really think of vertica being able to do that, like a heat map generator, which takes some XY coordinates and renders it on top of an image to show you the hotspots in it. So the image on the right was actually generated from one of our intern gaming sessions a few years back. So all these things are great examples that show you not just how you can solve problems, but also how you can use this SDK to solve neat things that maybe no one else has to solve, or maybe that are unique to your business and your needs. Another exciting benefit is with testing. So the test automation strategy that we have in vertica-python these clients, really generalizes well beyond the needs of a database client. Anyone that's ever built a vertica integration or an application, probably has a need to write some integration tests. And that could be hard to do with all the moving parts, in the big data solution. But with our code being open source, you can see in vertica-python, in particular, how we've structured our tests to facilitate smooth testing that's fast, deterministic and easy to use. So we've automated the download process, the installation deployment process, of a Vertica Community Edition. And with a single click, you can run through the tests locally and part of the PR workflow via Travis CI. We also do this for multiple different python environments. So for all python versions from 2.7 up to 3.8 for different Python interpreters, and for different Linux distros, we're running through all of them very quickly with ease, thanks to all this automation. So today, you can see how we do it in vertica-python, in the future, we might want to spin that out into its own stand-alone testbed starter projects so that if you're starting any new vertica integration, this might be a good starting point for you to get going quickly. So that brings us to some of the future work we want to do here in the open source space . Well, there's a lot of it. So in terms of the the client stuff, for Python, we are marching towards our 1.0 release, which is when we aim to be protocol complete to support all of vertica's unique protocols, including COPY LOCAL and some new protocols invented to support complex types, which is our new feature in vertica 10. We have some cursor enhancements to do things like better streaming and improved performance. Beyond that we want to take it where you want to bring it. So send us your requests in the Go client fronts, just about a year behind Python in terms of its protocol implementation, but the basic operations are there. But we still have more work to do to implement things like load balancing, some of the advanced auths and other things. But they're two, we want to work with you and we want to focus on what's important to you so that we can continue to grow and be more useful and more powerful over time. Finally, this question of, "Well, what about beyond database clients? "What else might we want to do with open source?" If you're building a very deep or a robust vertica integration, you probably need to do a lot more exciting things than just run SQL queries and process the answers. Especially if you're an OEM or you're a vendor that resells vertica packaged as a black box piece of a larger solution, you might to have managed the whole operational lifecycle of vertica. There's even fewer standards for doing all these different things compared to the SQL clients. So we started with the SQL clients 'cause that's a well established pattern, there's lots of downstream work that that can enable. But there's also clearly a need for lots of other open source protocols, architectures and examples to show you how to do these things and do have real standards. So we talked a little bit about how you could do UDXs or testing or Machine Learning, but there's all sorts of other use cases too. That's why we're excited to announce here our awesome vertica, which is a new collection of open source resources available on our GitHub page. So if you haven't heard of this awesome manifesto before, I highly recommend you check out this GitHub page on the right. We're not unique here but there's lots of awesome projects for all kinds of different tools and systems out there. And it's a great way to establish a community and share different resources, whether they're open source projects, blogs, examples, references, community resources, and all that. And this tool is an open source project. So it's an open source wiki. And you can contribute to it by submitting yourself to PR. So we've seeded it with some of our favorite tools and projects out there but there's plenty more out there and we hope to see more grow over time. So definitely check this out and help us make it better. So with that, I'm going to wrap up. I wanted to thank you all. Special thanks to Siting Ren and Roger Huebner, who are the project leads for the Python and Go clients respectively. And also, thanks to all the customers out there who've already been contributing stuff. This has already been going on for a long time and we hope to keep it going and keep it growing with your help. So if you want to talk to us, you can find us at this email address here. But of course, you can also find us on the Vertica forums, or you could talk to us on GitHub too. And there you can find links to all the different projects I talked about today. And so with that, I think we're going to wrap up and now we're going to hand it off for some Q&A.

>> From the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston Massachusetts, it's "The Cube." (groovy techno music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello, everyone. The rise of open source is really powering the digital economy. And in a world where every company is essentially under pressure to become a software firm, open source software really becomes the linchpin of digital services for both incumbents and, of course, digital natives. Here's the challenge, is when developers tap and apply open source, they're often bringing in hundreds, or even thousands of lines of code that reside in open sourced packages and libraries. And these code bases, they have dependencies, and essentially hidden traps. Now typically, security vulnerabilities in code, they're attacked after the software's developed. Or maybe thrown over the fence to the sec-ops team and SNYK is a company that set out to solve this problem within the application development life cycle, not after the fact as a built-on. Now, with us to talk about this mega-trend is Peter McKay, a friend of The Cube and CEO of SNYK. Peter, great to see you again. >> Good to see you, dude. >> So I got to start with the name. SNYK, what does it mean? >> SNYK, So Now You Know. You know, people it's sneakers sneak. And they tend to use the snick. So it's SNYK or snick. But it is SNYK and it stands for So Now You Know. Kind of a security, so now you know a lot more about your applications than you ever did before. So it's kind of a fitting name. >> So you heard my narrative upfront. Maybe you can add a little color to that and provide some additional background. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a, you know, when you think of the larger trends that are going on in the market, you know, every company is going through this digital transformation. You know, and every CEO, it's the number one priority. We've got to change our business from, you know, financial services, healthcare, insurance company, whatever, are all switching to digital, you know, more of a software company. And with that, more software equals more software risk and cybersecurity continues to be, you know, a major. I think 72% of CEOs worry about cybersecurity as a top issue in protecting companies' data. And so for us, we've been in the software in the security space for the four and a half years. I've been in the security space since, you know, Watchfire 20 years ago. And right now, with more and more, as you said, open source and containers, the challenge of being able to address the cybersecurity issues that have never been more challenging. And so especially when you add the gap between the need for security professionals and what they have. I think it's four million open positions for security people. So you know, with all this added risk, more and more open source, more and more digitization, it's created this opportunity in the market where you're traditional approaches to addressing security don't work today, you know? Like you said, throwing it over the fence and having someone in security, you know, check and make sure and finding all these vulnerabilities, and throw it back to developers to fix is very slow and something at this point is not driving to success. >> So talk a little bit more about what attracted you to SNYK early. I mean, you've been with the company, you're at least involved in the company for a couple years now. What were the trends that you saw, and what was it about SNYK that, you know, led you to become an investor and ultimately, CEO? >> Yeah, so four years involved in the business. So you know, I've always loved the security space. I've been in it for a number, almost 20 years. So I enjoy the space. You know, I've watched it. The founder, Guy Podjarny, one of the founders of SNYK, has been a friend of mine for 16 years from back in the Watchfire days. So we've always stayed connected. I've always worked well together with him. And so when you started, and I was on the board, the first board member of the company, so I could see what was going on, and it was this, you know, changing, kind of the right place at the right time in terms of developer first security. Really taking all the things that are going on in the security space that impacts a developer or can be addressed by the developer, and embedding it into the software into that developer community, in a way that developers use, the tools that they use. So it's a developer-first mindset with security expertise built-in. And so when you look at the market, the number of open source container evolution, you know, it's a huge market opportunity. Then you look at the business momentum, just took off over the past, you know, four years. That it was something that I was getting more and more involved in. And then when Guy asked me to join as the CEO, it was like, "Sure, what took you so long?" (Dave laughing) >> We had Guy on at Node JS Summit. I want to say it was a couple years ago now. And what he was describing is when you package, take the example of Node. When you package code in Node, you bring in all these dependencies, kind of what I was talking about there, but the challenge that he sort of described was really making it seamless as part of the development workflow. It seems like that's unique to SNYK. Maybe you could talk about-- >> Yeah, it is. And you know, we've built it from the ground up. You know, it's very difficult. If it was a security tool for security people, and then say, "Oh, let's adapt it for the developer," that is almost impossible. Why I think we've been so successful from the 400,000 developers in the community using Freemium to paid, was we built it from the ground up for developer, embedded into the application-development life cycle. Into their process, the look and feel, easy for them to use, easy for them to try it, and then we focused on just developer adoption. A great experience, developers will continue to use it and expand with it. And most of our opportunities that we've been successful at, the customers, we have over 400 customers. That had been this try, you know, start it with the community. They used the Freemium, they tried it for their new application, then they tried it for all their new, and then they go back and replace the old. So it was kind of this Freemium, land and expand has been a great way for developers to try it, use it. Does it work, yes, buy more. And that's the way we work. >> We're really happy, Peter, that you came on because you've got some news today that you're choosing to share with us in our Cube community. So it's around financing, bring us up to date. What's the news? >> Yeah so you know, I'd say four months ago, five months ago, we raised a $70 million round from great investors. And that was really led by one of our existing investors, who kind of knew us the best and it was you know, Excel Venture, and then Excel Growth came in and led the $70 million round. And part of that was a few new investors that came in and Stripes, which is you know a very large growth equity investor were part of that $70 million round said you know, preempted it and said, "Look it, we know you don't need the money, but we want to," you know, "We want to preempt. We believe your customer momentum," here we did, you know, five or six really large deals. You know, one, 700, seven million, 7.4 million, one's 3.5 million. So we started getting these bigger deals and we doubled since the $70 million round. And so we said, "Okay, we want to make money not the issue." So they led the next round, which is $150 million round, at a valuation of over a billion. That really allows us now to, with the number of other really top tier, (mumbles) and Tiger and Trend and others, who have been part of watching the space and understand the market. And are really helping us grow this business internationally. So it's an exciting time. So you know, again, we weren't looking to raise. This was something that kind of came to us and you know, when people are that excited about it like we are and they know us the best because they've been part of our board of directors since their round, it allows us to do the things that we want to do faster. >> So $150 million raise this round, brings you up to the 250, is that correct? >> Yes, 250. >> And obviously, an up-round. So congratulations, that's great. >> Yeah, you know, I think a big part of that is you know, we're not, I mean, we've always been very fiscally responsible. I mean, yes we have the money and most of it's still in the bank. We're growing at the pace that we think is right for us and right for the market. You know, we continue to invest product, product, product, is making sure we continue our product-led organization. You know, from that bottoms up, which is something we continue to do. This allows us to accelerate that more aggressively, but also the community, which is a big part of what makes that, you know, when you have a bottoms up, you need to have that community. And we've grown that and we're going to continue to invest aggressively and build in that community. And lastly, go to market. Not only invest, invest aggressively in the North America, but also Europe and APJ, which, you know, a lot of the things we've learned from my Veeam experience, you know how to grow fast, go big or go home. You know, are things that we're going to do but we're going to do it in the right way. >> So the Golden Rule is product and sales, right? >> Yes, you're either building it or selling it. >> Right, that's kind of where you're going to put your money. You know, you talk a lot about people, companies will do IPOs to get seen, but companies today, I mean, even software companies, which is a capital-efficient industry, they raise a lot of dough and they put it towards promotion to compete. What are your thoughts on that? >> You know, we've had, the model is very straightforward. It's bottoms up, you know? Developers, you know, there's 28 million developers in the world, you know? What we want is every one of those 28 million to be using our product. Whether it's free or paid, I want SNYK used in every application-development life cycle. If you're one developer, or you're a sales force with standardized on 12,000 developers, we want them using SNYK. So for us, it's get it in the hands. And that, you know, it's not like-- developers aren't going to look at Super Bowl ads, they're not going to be looking. It's you know, it's finding the ways, like the conference. We bought the DevSecCon, you know, the conference for developer security. Another way to promote kind of our, you know, security for developers and grow that developer community. That's not to say that there isn't a security part. Because, you know, what we do is help security organizations with visibility and finding a much more scalable way that gets them out of the, you know, the slows-down, the speed bump to the moving apps more aggressively into production. And so this is very much about helping security people. A lot of times the budgets do come from security or dev-ops. But it's because of our focus on the developer and the success of fixing, finding, fixing, and auto-remediating that developer environment is what makes us special. >> And it's sounds like a key to your success is you're not asking developer to context switch into a new environment, right? It's part of their existing workflow. >> It has to be, right? Don't change how they do their job, right? I mean, their job is to develop incredible applications that are better than the competitors, get them to market faster than they can, than they've ever been able to do before and faster than the competitor, but do it securely. Our goal is to do the third, but not sacrifice on one and two, right? Help you drive it, help you get your applications to market, help you beat your competition, but do it in a secure fashion. So don't slow them down. >> Well, the other thing I like about you guys is the emphasis is on fixing. It's not just alerting people that there's a problem. I mean, for instance, a company like Red Hat, is that they're going to put a lot of fixes in. But you, of course, have to go implement them. What you're doing is saying, "Hey, we're going to do that for you. Push the button and then we'll do it," right? So that, to me, that's important because it enables automation, it enables scale. >> Exactly, and I think this has been one of the challenges for kind of more of the traditional legacy, is they find a whole bunch of vulnerabilities, right? And we feel as though just that alone, we're the best in the world at. Finding vulnerabilities in applications in open source container. And so the other part of it is, okay, you find all them, but prioritizing what it is that I should fix first? And that's become really big issue because the vulnerabilities, as you can imagine, continue to grow. But focusing on hey, fix this top 10%, then the next, and to the extent you can, auto-fix. Auto-remediate those problems, that's ultimately, we're measured by how many vulnerabilities do we fix, right? I mean, finding them, that's one thing. But fixing them is how we judge a successful customer. And now it's possible. Before, it was like, "Oh, okay, you're just going to show me more things." No, when you talk about Google and Salesforce and Intuit, and all of our customers, they're actually getting far better. They're seeing what they have in terms of their exposure, and they're fixing the problems. And that's ultimately what we're focused on. >> So some of those big whales that you just mentioned, it seems to me that the value proposition for those guys, Peter, is the quality of the code that they can develop and obviously, the time that it takes to do that. But if you think about it more of a traditional enterprise, which I'm sure is part of your (mumbles), they'll tell you, the (mumbles) will tell you our biggest problem is we don't have enough people with the skills. Does this help? >> It absolutely-- >> And how so? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a massive gap in security expertise. And the current approach, the tools, are, you know, like you said at the very beginning, it's I'm doing too late in the process. I need to do it upstream. So you've got to leverage the 28 million developers that are developing the applications. It's the only way to solve the problem of, you know, this application security challenge. We call it Cloud Dative Application Security, which all these applications usually are new apps that they're moving into the Cloud. And so to really fix it, to solve the problem, you got to embed it, make it really easy for developers to leverage SNYK in their whole, we call it, you know, it's that concept of shift left, you know? Our view is that it needs to be embedded within the development process. And that's how you fix the problem. >> And talk about the business model again. You said it's Freemium model, you just talked about a big seven figure deals that you're doing and that starts with a Freemium, and then what? I upgrade to a subscription and then it's a land and expand? Describe that. >> Yeah we call it, it's you know, it's the community. Let's get every developer in a community. 28 million, we want to get into our community. From there, you know, leverage our Freemium, use it. You know, we encourage you to use it. Everybody to use our Freemium. And it's full functionality. It's not restricted in anyway. You can use it. And there's a subset of those that are ready to say, "Look it, I want to use the paid version," which allows me to get more visibility across more developers. So as you get larger organization, you want to leverage the power of kind of a bigger, managing multiple developers, like a lot of, in different teams. And so that kind of gets that shift to that paid. Then it goes into that Freemium, land, expand, we call it explode. Sales force, kind of explode. And then renew. That's been our model. Get in the door, get them using Freemium, we have a great experience, go to paid. And that's usually for an application, then it goes to 10 applications, and then 300 developers and then the way we price is by developer. So the more developers who use, the better your developer adoption, the bigger the ultimate opportunity is for us. >> There's a subscription service right? >> All subscription. >> Okay and then you guys have experts that are identifying vulnerabilities, right? You put them into a database, presumably, and then you sort of operationalize that into your software and your service. >> Yeah, we have 15 people in our security team that do nothing everyday but looking for the next vulnerability. That's our vulnerability database, in a large case, is a lot of our big companies start with the database. Because you think of like Netflix and you think of Facebook, all of these companies have large security organizations that are looking for issues, looking for vulnerabilities. And they're saying, "Well okay, if I can get that feed from you, why do I have my own?" And so a lot of companies start just with the database feed and say, "Look, I'll get rid of mine, and use yours." And then eventually, we'll use this scanning and we'll evolve down the process. But there's no doubt in the market people who use our solution or other solution will say our known the database of known vulnerabilities, is far better than anybody else in the market. >> And who do you sell to, again? Who are the constituencies? Is it sec-ops, is it, you know, software engineering? Is it developers, dev-ops? >> Users are always developers. In some cases dev-ops, or dev-sec. Apps-sec, you're starting to see kind of the world, the developer security becoming bigger. You know, as you get larger, you're definitely security becomes a bigger part of the journey and some of the budget comes from the security teams. Or the risk or dev-ops. But I think if we were to, you know, with the user and some of the influencers from developers, dev-ops, and security are kind of the key people in the equation. >> Is your, you have a lot of experience in the enterprise. How do you see your go to market in this world different, given that it's really a developer constituency that you're targeting? I mean, normally, you'd go out, hire a bunch of expensive sales guys, go to market, is that the model or is it a little different here because of the target? >> Yeah, you know, to be honest, a lot of the momentum that we've had at this point has been inbound. Like most of the opportunities that come in, come to us from the community, from this ground up. And so we have a very large inside sales team that just kind of follows up on the inbound interest. And that's still, you know, 65, 70% of the opportunities that come to us both here and Europe and APJ, are coming from the community inbound. Okay, I'm using 10 licenses of SNYK, you know, I want to get the enterprise version of it. And so that's been how we've grown. Very much of a very cost-effective inside sales. Now, when you get to the Googles and Salesforces and Nordstroms of the world, and they have already 500 licenses us, either paid or free, then we usually have more of a, you know, senior sales person that will be involved in those deals. >> To sort of mine those accounts. But it's really all about driving the efficiency of that inbound, and then at some point driving more inbound and sort of getting that flywheel effect. >> Developer adoption, developer adoption. That's the number one driver for everybody in our company. We have a customer success team, developer adoption. You know, just make the developer successful and good things happen to all the other parts of the organization. >> Okay, so that's a key performance indicator. What are the, let's wrap kind of the milestones and the things that you want to accomplish in the next, let's call it 12 months, 18 months? What should we be watching? >> Yeah, so I mean it continues to be the community, right? The community, recruiting more developers around the globe. We're expanding, you know, APJ's becoming a bigger part. And a lot of it is through just our efforts and just building out this community. We now have 20 people, their sole job is to build out, is to continue to build our developer community. Which is, you know, content, you know, information, how to learn, you know, webinars, all these things that are very separate and apart from the commercial side of the business and the community side of the business. So community adoption is a critical measurement for us, you know, yeah, you look at Freemium adoption. And then, you know, new customers. How are we adding new customers and retaining our existing customers? And you know, we have a 95% retention rate. So it's very sticky because you're getting the data feed, is a daily data feed. So it's like, you know, it's not one that you're going to hook on and then stop at any time soon. So you know, those are the measurements. You look at your community, you look at your Freemium, you look at your customer growth, your retention rates, those are all the things that we measure our business by. >> And your big pockets of brain power here, obviously in Boston, kind of CEO's prerogative, you got a big presence in London, right? And also in Israel, is that correct? >> Yeah, I would say we have four hubs and then we have a lot of remote employees. So, you know, Tel Aviv, where a lot of our security expertise is, in London, a lot of engineering. So between London and Tel Aviv is kind of the security teams, the developers are all in the community is kind of there. You know, Boston, is kind of more go to market side of things, and then we have Ottawa, which is kind of where Watchfire started, so a lot of good security experience there. And then, you know, we've, like a lot of modern companies, we hired the best people wherever we can find them. You know, we have some in Sydney, we've got some all around the world. Especially security, where finding really good security talent is a challenge. And so we're always looking for the best and brightest wherever they are. >> Well, Peter, congratulations on the raise, the new role, really, thank you for coming in and sharing with The Cube community. Really appreciate it. >> Well, it's great to be here. Always enjoy the conversations, especially the Patriots, Red Sox, kind of banter back and forth. It's always good. >> Well, how do you feel about that? >> Which one? >> Well, the Patriots, you know, sort of strange that they're not deep into the playoffs, I mean, for us. But how about the Red Sox now? Is it a team of shame? All my friends who were sort of jealous of Boston sports are saying you should be embarrassed, what are your thoughts? >> It's all about Houston, you know? Alex Cora, was one of the assistant coaches at Houston where all the issues are, I'm not sure those issues apply to Boston, but we'll see, TBD. TBD, I am optimistic as usual. I'm a Boston fan making sure that there isn't any spillover from the Houston world. >> Well we just got our Sox tickets, so you know, hopefully, they'll recover quickly, you know, from this. >> They will, they got to get a coach first. >> Yeah, they got to get a coach first. >> We need something to distract us from the Patriots. >> So you're not ready to attach an asterisk yet to 2018? >> No, no. No, no, no. >> All right, I like the optimism. Maybe you made the right call on Tom Brady. >> Did I? >> Yeah a couple years ago. >> Still since we talked what, two in one. And they won one. >> So they were in two, won one, and he threw for what, 600 yards in the first one so you can't, it wasn't his fault. >> And they'll sign him again, he'll be back. >> Is that your prediction? I hope so. >> I do, I do. >> All right, Peter. Always a pleasure, man. >> Great to see you. >> Thank you so much, and thank you for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (groovy techno music)

>> From the Silicon Angle Media Office, in Boston Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this breaking analysis where we try to provide you some insights on theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with Jim Kobielus who was up today, and Jim we were just off of the VMworld 2019. Big show, lot of energy, lot of announcements. I specifically want to focus on containers and the impact that containers are having on VMware, specifically the broader ecosystem and the industry at large. So, first of all, what was you take on VMworld 2019? >> Well, my take was that VMware is growing fast, and they're investing in the future, which is fairly clearly cloud and native computing on containers with Kubernetes and all that. But really that's the future and so, what VMware is doing is they're making significant bets that containers will rule the roost in cloud computing and application infrastructures going forward. But in fact virtual machines, VMs hypervisors are hotter than ever and that was well established last week by the fact that the core predominate announcement last week was a VMware Tanzu, which is not yet a production solution, but is in a limited preview, which is the new platform for coexistence of containers and vSphere. A container run time embedded in vSphere, so that customers can run containers in a highly-iso workloads, in a highly isolated VM environment. In other words, VMware is saying, we're saying to their customers, "You don't have to migrate away from VMs "until you're good and ready. "You can continue to run whatever containers "you build on vShpere, "but we more than encourage you to continue to run VMs "until you're good and ready "to migrate, if ever." >> All right. So, I want to come back and unpack that a little bit, but does your data, does your analysis, when you're talking to customers and the industry at large, is there any evidence from what you see that containers are hurting VMware's business? >> I don't get any sense that containers are hurting VMware's business. I get the strong sense that containers, they've just of course acquired Pivotal, a very additive to the revenue mix at VMware. And VMware, most of their announcements last week were in fact all around Kubernetes, and containers, and products that are very much for those customers who are going deep down the container road. >> So that was a setup question. >> You've got lots of products for them. >> So that was a setup question. So I have some data on this. >> Go ahead >> Right answer. So, I want to show you this. So, Alex, if you wouldn't mind bringing up that slide. And we shared this with you last week when we were prepping for VMworld. This is data from Enterprise Technology Research ETR, and they have a panel of 4500 end user customers that they go out and do spending surveys with them. So, what this shows is, this is container customers spending on VMware. So, you can see it goes back to early January. Now it's a little deceiving here. You see that big spike, but what it shows it that, A, that big spike is the number of shared customers. So, you really didn't have many customers back then that were doing both containers and VMware that ETR found. But as the N gets bigger, 186, 248, 257, 361, across those 461 customers, those are the shared customers in the green. And you can see that it's kind of a flat line. It's holding very well in the high 30's percent range, which is their sort of proprietary metric. So, there's absolutely no evidence, Jim, that containers, thus far anyway, are hurting VMware's business. Which of course was the narrative, containers are going to kill VMware, no evidence of that. But then why would they acquire Pivotal? Are they concerned about the future, what's your-- >> Well, they're concerned about cross selling their existing customer base who are primarily on V's, fearing the hypervisors, cross selling them on the new world of Kubernetes base products for cloud computing, and so forth and so on. In other words it's all about how do they grow their revenue base? VMware's been around for more than 20 years now. They rule the roost on the hypervisors. Where do they go from here, in terms of their product mix? Well, Kubernetes and beyond that, things like serverless will clearly be in the range of the things that they could add on. Their customers could add on to their existing deploys. I mean, look at Pivotal. Pivotal has a really strong Kubernetes distribution, which of course VMware co-developed with them. Pivotal also has a strong functions as a service backplane, the Pivotal function service for, serverless environments. So, this acquisition of Pivotal very much positions VMware to capitalize on those opportunities to sell those products when that market actually develops. But I see some evidence that virtual machines are going like gang busters in terms of customer deployments. Last week on theCUBE at VMworld, Mark Lohmeyer who's an SVP at a VMware for one of their cloud business unit, said that in the last year, for example, customers who are using a VMware cloud on AWS, VMware grew the customer base by 400% last year, and grew the number of VMs running in VMware, cloud, and AWS by 900%, which would imply that on average each customer more than doubled the number of VMs they're running on that particular cloud service. That means VMs are very much relevant now, and probably will be going forward. And why is that? That's a good question, we can debate that. >> Well, so the naysayers at VMworld in the audience were tweeting that, "Oh, I though we started Pivotal. "We launched Pivotal so that we didn't have to run VMs on, "or run containers on VMs, "so we could run them on bare metal." Are people running containers on virtual machines? >> Well, they are, yes. In fact, there's a broad range of industry initiatives, not just Tanzu at VMware, to do just that. To run containers on VMs. I mean, there is the KubeVirt, open source project over at CNCF, that's been going for a couple years now. But also, Google has Gvisor, Intel has the Kata containers initiative, I believe that there are a few others. Oh yeah, AWS with Firecracker, last year's reinvent. All this would imply, strongly indicate that these large cloud and tech vendors wouldn't be investing heavily into convergence of containers and VMs and hypervisors, if there weren't a strong demand from customers for hybrid environments where they're going to run both stacks as it were in parallel, why? Well, one of the strong advantages of VMs is workload isolation at the hardware level, which is something that typically container run times don't offer. For example, the workload isolation seems to be one of the strong features that VMware's touting for Tanzu going forward. >> So, VMware is--the centerpiece of VMware's strategy is obviously multicloud, Kubernetes as a lynch pin to enable running applications on different platforms. Will, in your opinion, and of course VMware is hard core enterprise, right? Will VMware, two things, will they be able to attract the developers, number one. And number two, will those developers build on top of VMware's platform or are they going to look to their cloud? >> That's a very important question. Last week at VMworld, I didn't get a sense that VMware has a strong developer story. I think that's a really open issue going forward for them. Why would a developer turn to VMware as their core solution provider when they don't offer a strong workbench for building these hybridized VM, /container/serverless applications that seem to be springing up all over? AWS and Microsoft and Google are much stronger in that area with their respective portfolios. >> So, I guess the obvious answer there is Pivotal is their answer to the developer quandary. >> Yes. >> And so, let's talk about that. So, Pivotal was struggling. I talked last week in my analysis, you saw the IPO price and then it dipped down, it never made it back up. Essentially the price that VMware paid the public shareholders for Pivotal was about half of it's initial IPO price, so, okay. So, the stock was struggling, the company didn't have the kind of momentum that, I think, that it wanted, so VMware picks it up. Can VMware fold in Pivotal, and use its go-to-market, and its largess to really prop up Pivotal and make it a leader? >> Well, possibly because Cloud Foundry, Pivotal Cloud Foundry could be the lynch pin of VMware's emerging developer story, if they position in that and really invest in the product in that regard. So yeah, in other words this could very much make VMware a go-to-vendor for the developers who are building the new generation of applications that present serverless functional interfaces, but will have containers under the cover, but also have VMs under the cover providing strong workload isolation in a multi-tenant environment. That would be the promise. >> Now, a couple things. You mentioned Microsoft, of course as you're in the clouding, and Google. The ETR data that I dug into when I wanted to understand, better understand multicloud. Who's got the multicloud momentum? Well, guess who has the most multicloud momentum? It's the cloud guys. Now, AWS doesn't specifically say they participate in multicloud. Certainly their marketing suggest that multicloud is for somebody else, that really they want to have uni-cloud. Whereas Google, and as you're kind of embracing multicloud and Kubernetes specifically, now of course AWS has a Kubernetes offering, but I suspect it's not something that they want to promote hard in the market place because it makes it easier for people to get off of AWS. Your thoughts on multicloud generally, but specifically Kubernetes, and containers as it relates to the big cloud providers. >> Yeah, well my thoughts on multicloud generally is that multicloud is the strategy of the second tier cloud vendors, obviously. If they can't dominate the entire space, at least they can maintain a strong, provide a strong connective tissue for the clouds that actually are deployed in their customer's environments. So, in other words, the Ciscos of the world, the VMwares of the world, IBM. In other words, these are not among the top tier of the public cloud players, hence where do they go to remain relevant? Well, they provide the connective tissue, and they provide the virtualized networking backbones, and they provide the AI ops that enables end-to-end automated monitoring management of the entire mesh. The whole notion of a mesh architecture is something that grew up with IBM and Google for lots of reasons, especially due to the fact that they themselves, as vendors, didn't dominate the public cloud. >> Well, so I agree with you. The only issue I would take is I think Microsoft is a leader in public cloud, but because it has a big On-Prem presence, it's in its best interest to push containers and Kubernetes, and so forth. But you're right about the others. Cisco doesn't have a public cloud, VMware doesn't have a public cloud, IBM has a public cloud but it's really small market share, and so it's in those companies, and Google is behind, but it's in those companies best interest really to promote multicloud, try to use it as a bull work against AWS, who's got an obviously awesome market momentum. The other thing that's interesting in the ETR data when I poke in there, it seems like there are more people looking at Google. Now maybe that's 'cause they have such strong strength in data and analytics, maybe it's 'cause they're looking for a hedge on AWS, but the spending data suggests that more and more people are kicking the tires, and more than kicking the tires on Google. Who of course is obviously behind Kubernetes and that container movement, and open source, your thoughts? >> Yeah, well, many ways, you have to think, that Google has developed the key pieces of the new stack for application development in the multicloud. Clearly they developed Kubernetes, its open source, and also they developed TensorFlow open sources, it's the predominant AI workbench essentially for the new generation of AI driven applications, which is everything. But also, if you look at Google developed Node JS for web applications and so forth. So really, Google now is the go-to-vendor for the new generation of open source application development, and increasingly DevOps in a multicloud environment, running over Istio meshes and so forth. So, I think that's, so, look at one of the announcements last weekend at VMworld. VMware and NVIDIA, their announcement of their collaboration, their joint offering to enable AI workloads, training workloads to run in GPUs in an optimal high performance fashion within a distributive of VMware cloud end-to-end. So really, I think VMware recognizes that the new workloads in the multicloud are predominately, increasingly AI workloads. And in order to, as the market goes towards those kinds of workloads, VMware very much recognizes they need to have a strong developer play, and they do with NVIDIA in a sense. Very much so because NVIDIA with the rapid framework and so forth, and NVIDIA being the predominant GPU vendor, very much is a very strategic partner for VMware as they're going forward, as they hope to line up the AI developers. But Google still is the vendor to beat as regards to AI developers of the world, in that regard, so-- >> So we're entering a world we sometimes call the post-virtual machine world. John Furrier is kind of tongue and cheek on a play on web tudauto. He calls it cloud tudauto, which is a world of multiple clouds. As I've said many times, I'm not sure multicloud is necessarily a coherent strategy yet as opposed to sort of a multi-vendor situation, Shadow IT, >> Yes. >> Lines on business, et cetera. But Jim, thanks very much-- >> Sure. >> For coming on and breaking down the container market, and VMworld 2019. It was great to see you. >> Likewise. >> All right, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante with Jim Kobielus. We'll see you next time on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Red Hat President Products and Technologies. Paul Cormier. Boring. >> Welcome back to Boston. Welcome back. And welcome back after a great night last night of our opening with with Jim and talking to certainly saw ten Jenny and and especially our customers. It was so great last night to hear our customers in how they set their their goals and how they met their goals. All possible because certainly with a little help from red hat, but all possible because of because of open source. And, you know, sometimes we have to all due that has set goals. And I'm going to talk this morning about what we as a company and with community, have set for our goals along the way. And sometimes you have to do that. You know, audacious goals. It can really change the perception of what's even possible. And, you know, if I look back, I can't think of anything, at least in my lifetime, that's more important. Or such a big golden John F. Kennedy setting the gold to the American people to go to the moon. I believe it or not, I was really, really only three years old when he said that, honestly. But as I grew up, I remember the passion around the whole country and the energy to make that goal a reality. So let's sort of talk about in compare and contrast, a little bit of where we are technically at that time, you know, tto win and to beat and winning the space race and even get into the space race. There was some really big technical challenges along the way. I mean, believe it or not. Not that long ago. But even But back then, math Malik mathematical calculations were being shifted from from brilliant people who we trusted, and you could look in the eye to A to a computer that was programmed with the results that were mostly printed out. This this is a time where the potential of computers was just really coming on the scene and, at the time, the space race at the time of space race it. It revolved around an IBM seventy ninety, which was one of the first transistor based computers. It could perform mathematical calculations faster than even the most brilliant mathematicians. But just like today, this also came with many, many challenges And while we had the goal of in the beginning of the technique and the technology to accomplish it, we needed people so dedicated to that goal that they would risk everything. And while it may seem commonplace to us today to trust, put our trust in machines, that wasn't the case. Back in nineteen sixty nine, the seven individuals that made up the Mercury Space crew were putting their their lives in the hands of those first computers. But on Sunday, July twentieth, nineteen sixty nine, these things all came together. The goal, the technology in the team and a human being walked on the moon. You know, if this was possible fifty years ago, just think about what Khun B. Accomplished today, where technology is part of our everyday lives. And with technology advances at an ever increasing rate, it's hard to comprehend the potential that sitting right at our fingertips every single day, everything you know about computing is continuing to change. Today, let's look a bit it back. A computing In nineteen sixty nine, the IBM seventy ninety could process one hundred thousand floating point operations per second, today's Xbox one that sitting in most of your living rooms probably can process six trillion flops. That's sixty million times more powerful than the original seventy ninety that helped put a human being on the moon. And at the same time that computing was, that was drastically changed. That this computing has drastically changed. So have the boundaries of where that computing sits and where it's been where it lives. At the time of the Apollo launch, the computing power was often a single machine. Then it moved to a single data center, and over time that grew to multiple data centers. Then with cloud, it extended all the way out to data centers that you didn't even own or have control of. But but computing now reaches far beyond any data center. This is also referred to as the edge. You hear a lot about that. The Apollo's, the Apollo's version of the Edge was the guidance system, a two megahertz computer that weighed seventy pounds embedded in the capsule. Today, today the edge is right here on my wrist. This apple watch weighs just a couple of ounces, and it's ten ten thousand times more powerful than that seventy ninety back in nineteen sixty nine But even more impactful than computing advances, combined with the pervasive availability of it, are the changes and who in what controls those that similar to social changes that have happened along the way. Shifting from mathematicians to computers, we're now facing the same type of changes with regards to operational control of our computing power. In its first forms. Operational control was your team, your team within your control? In some cases, a single person managed everything. But as complexity grows, our team's expanded, just like in the just like in the computing boundaries, system integrators and public cloud providers have become an extension of our team. But at the end of the day, it's still people that are still making all the decisions going forward with the progress of things like a I and software defined everything. It's quite likely that machines will be managing machines, and in many cases that's already happening today. But while the technology at our finger tips today is so impressive, the pace of changing complexity of the problems we aspire to solve our equally hard to comprehend and they are all intertwined with one another learning from each other, growing together faster and faster. We are tackling problems today on a global scale with unsinkable complexity beyond anyone beyond what any one single company or even one single country Khun solve alone. This is why open source is so important. This is why open source is so needed today in software. This is why open sources so needed today, even in the world, to solve other types of complex problems. And this is why open source has become the dominant development model which is driving the technology direction. Today is to bring two brother to bring together the best innovation from every corner of the planet. Toe fundamentally change how we solve problems. This approach and access the innovation is what has enabled open source To tackle The challenge is big challenges, like creating the hybrid cloud like building a truly open hybrid cloud. But even today it's really difficult to bridge the gap of the innovation. It's available in all in all of our fingertips by open source development, while providing the production level capabilities that are needed to really dip, ploy this in the enterprise and solve RIA world business problems. Red Hat has been committed to open source from the very, very beginning and bringing it to solve enterprise class problems for the last seventeen plus years. But when we built that model to bring open source to the enterprise, we absolutely knew we couldn't do it halfway tow harness the innovation. We had to fully embrace the model. We made a decision very early on. Give everything back and we live by that every single day. We didn't do crazy crazy things like you hear so many do out there. All this is open corps or everything below. The line is open and everything above the line is closed. We didn't do that, and we gave everything back Everything we learned in the process of becoming an enterprise class technology company. We gave it all of that back to the community to make better and better software. This is how it works. And we've seen the results of that. We've all seen the results of that and it could only have been possible within open source development model we've been building on the foundation of open source is most successful Project Lennox in the architecture of the future hybrid and bringing them to the Enterprise. This is what made Red Hat, the company that we are today and red hats journey. But we also had the set goals, and and many of them seemed insert insurmountable at the time, the first of which was making Lennox the Enterprise standard. And while this is so accepted today, let's take a look at what it took to get there. Our first launch into the Enterprise was rail two dot one. Yes, I know we two dot one, but we knew we couldn't release a one dato product. We knew that and and we didn't. But >> we didn't want to >> allow any reason why anyone of any customer anyone shouldn't should look past rail to solve their problems as an option. Back then, we had to fight every single flavor of Unix in every single account. But we were lucky to have a few initial partners and Big Eyes v partners that supported Rehl out of the gate. But while we had the determination, we knew we also had gaps in order to deliver on our on our priorities. In the early days of rail, I remember going to ask one of our engineers for a past rehl build because we were having a customer issue on it on an older release. And then I watched in horror as he rifled through his desk through a mess of CDs and magically came up and said, I found it here It is told me not to worry that the build this was he thinks this was the bill. This was the right one, and at that point I knew that despite the promise of Lennox, we had a lot of work ahead of us. The not only convinced the world that Lennox was secure, stable, an enterprise ready, but also to make that a reality. But we did. And today this is our reality. It's all of our reality. From the Enterprise Data Center standard to the fastest computers on the planet, Red Hat Enterprise, Lennox has continually risen to the challenge and has become the core foundation that many mission critical customers run and bet their business on. And an even bigger today Lennox is the foundation of which practically every single technology initiative is built upon. Lennox is not only standard toe build on today, it's the standard for innovation that builds around it. That's the innovation that's driving the future as well. We started our story with rail two dot one, and here we are today, seventeen years later, announcing rally as we did as we did last night. It's specifically designed for applications to run across the open hybrid. Clyde Cloud. Railed has become the best operating simp system for on premise all the way out to the cloud, providing that common operating model and workload foundation on which to build hybrid applications. Let's take it. Let's take a look at how far we've come and see this in action. >> Please welcome Red Hat Global director of developer experience, burst Sutter with Josh Boyer, Timothy Kramer, Lars Carl, it's Key and Brent Midwood. All right, we have some amazing things to show you. In just a few short moments, we actually have a lot of things to show you. And actually, Tim and Brandt will be with us momentarily. They're working out a few things in the back because we have a lot of this is gonna be a live demonstration, some incredible capabilities. Now you're going to see clear innovation inside the operating system where we worked incredibly hard to make it vast cities. You're free to manage many, many machines. I want you thinking about that as we go to this process. Now, also, keep in mind that this is the basis our core platform for everything we do here. Red hat. So it is an honor for me to be able to show it to you live on stage today. And so I recognize the many of you in the audience right now. Her hand's on systems administrators, systems, architect, citizens, engineers. And we know that you're under ever growing pressure to deliver needed infrastructure. Resource is ever faster, and that is a key element to what you're thinking about every day. Well, this has been a core theme, and our design decisions find red Odd Enterprise Lennox eight and intelligent operating system, which is making it fundamentally easier for you manage machines that scale. So hold what you're about to see next. Feels like a new superpower and and that redhead azure force multiplier. So first, let me introduce you to a large. He's totally my limits guru. >> I wouldn't call myself a girl, but I I guess you could say that I want to bring Lennox and light meant to more people. >> Okay, Well, let's let's dive in. And we're not about the clinic's eight. >> Sure. Let me go. And Morgan, >> wait a >> second. There's windows. >> Yeah, way Build the weft Consul into Really? That means that for the first time, you can log in from any device including your phone or this standard windows laptop. So you just go ahead and and to my Saturday lance credentials here. >> Okay, so now >> you're putting >> your limits password and over the web. >> Yeah, that might sound a bit scary at first, but of course, we're using the latest security tech by T. L s on dh csp on. Because that's the standard Lennox off site. You can use everything that you used to like a stage keys, OTP, tokens and stuff like this. >> Okay, so now I see the council right here. I love the dashboard overview of the system, but what else can you tell us about this council? >> Right? Like right here. You see the load of the system, some some of its properties. But you can also dive into logs everything that you're used to from the command line, right? Or lookit, services. This's all the services I've running, can start and stuff them and enable >> OK, I love that feature right there. So what about if I have to add a whole new application to this environment? >> Good that you're bringing that up. We build a new future into hell called application streams. Which the way for you to install different versions of your half stack that are supported I'LL show you with Youngmin a command line. But since Windows doesn't have a proper terminal, I'll just do it in the terminal that we built into the Web console Since the browser, I can even make this a bit bigger. Go to, for example, to see the application streams that we have for Poskus. Ijust do module list and I see you know we have ten and nine dot six Both supported tennis a default on defy enable ninety six Now the next time that I installed prescribes it will pull all their lady towards from them at six. >> Ok, so this is very cool. I see two verses of post Chris right here What tennis to default. That is fantastic and the application streams making that happen. But I'm really kind of curious, right? I loved using know js and Java. So what about multiple versions of those? >> Yeah, that's exactly the idea way. Want to keep up with the fast moving ecosystems off programming language? Isn't it a business? >> Okay, now, But I have another key question. I know some people were thinking it right now. What about Python? >> Yeah. In fact, in a minimum and still like this, python gives you command. Not fact. Just have to type it correctly. You can't just install which everyone you want two or three or whichever your application needs. >> Okay, Well, that is I've been burned on that one before. Okay, so no actual. Have a confession for all you guys. Right here. You guys keep this amongst yourselves. Don't let Paul No, I'm actually not a linnet systems administrator. I'm an application developer, an application architect, And I recently had to go figure out how to extend the file system. This is for real. And I'm going to the rat knowledge base and looking up things like, you know, PV create VD, extend resized to f s. And I have to admit, that's hard, >> right? I've opened the storage space for you right here, where you see an overview of your storage. And the council has made for people like you as well not only for people that I knew that when you two lunatics, right? It's if you're running, you're running some of the commands only, you know, some of the time you don't remember them. So, for example, I haven't felt twosome here. That's a little bit too small. Let me just throw it. It's like, you know, dragging this lighter. It calls all the command in the background for you. >> Oh, that is incredible. Is that simple? Just drag and drop. That is fantastic. Well, so I actually, you know, we'll have another question for you. It looks like now this linen systems administration is no longer a dark heart involving arcane commands typed into a black terminal. Like using when those funky ergonomic keyboards you know I'm talking about right? Do >> you know a lot of people, including me and people in the audience like that dark out right? And this is not taking any of that away. It's on additional tool to bring limits to more people. >> Okay, well, that is absolute fantastic. Thank you so much for that Large. And I really love him installing everything is so much easier, including a post gra seeker and, of course, the python that we saw right there. So now I want to change gears for a second because I actually have another situation that I'm always dealing with. And that is every time I want to build a new Lenox system, not only I don't want to have to install those commands again and again, it feels like I'm doing it over and over. So, Josh, how would I create a golden image? One VM image that can use and we have everything pre baked in? >> Yeah, absolutely. But >> we get that question all the time. So really includes image builder technology. Image builder technology is actually all of our hybrid cloud operating system image tools that we use to build our own images and rolled up in a nice, easy to integrate new system. So if I come here in the web console and I go to our image builder tab, it brings us to blueprints, right? Blueprints or what we used to actually control it goes into our golden image. Uh, and I heard you and Lars talking about post present python. So I went and started typing here. So it brings us to this page, but you could go to the selected components, and you can see here I've created a blueprint that has all the python and post press packages in it. Ah, and the interesting thing about this is it build on our existing kickstart technology. But you can use it to deploy that whatever cloud you want. And it's saved so that you don't actually have to know all the various incantations from Amazon toe azure to Google, whatever it's all baked in on. When you do this, you can actually see the dependencies that get brought in as well. Okay. Should we create one life? Yes, please. All right, cool. So if we go back to the blueprints page and we click create blueprint Let's, uh let's make a developer brute blueprint here. So we click great, and you can see here on the left hand side. I've got all of my content served up by Red Hat satellite. We have a lot of great stuff, and really, But we can go ahead and search. So we'LL look for post grows and you know, it's a developer image at the client for some local testing. Um, well, come in here and at the python bits. Probably the development package. We need a compiler if we're going to actually build anything. So look for GCC here and hey, what's your favorite editor? >> A Max, Of course, >> Max. All right. Hey, Lars, about you. I'm more of a person. You Maxim v I All right, Well, if you want to prevent a holy war in your system, you can actually use satellite to filter that out. But we're going to go ahead and Adam Ball, sweetie, I'm a fight on stage. So wait, just point and click. Let the graphical one. And then when we're all done, we just commit our changes, and our image is ready to build. >> Okay, So this VM image we just created right now from that blueprint this is now I can actually go out there and easily deploys of deploy this across multiple cloud providers. And as well as this on stage are where we have right now. >> Yeah, absolutely. We can to play on Amazon as your google any any infrastructure you're looking for so you can really hit your Clyburn hybrid cloud operating system images. >> Okay. All right, listen, we >> just go on, click, create image. Uh, we can select our different types here. I'm gonna go ahead and create a local VM because it's available image, and maybe they want to pass it around or whatever, and I just need a few moments for it to build. >> Okay? So while that's taking a few moments, I know there's another key question in the minds of the audience right now, and you're probably thinking I love what I see. What Right eye right hand Priceline say. But >> what does it >> take to upgrade from seven to eight? So large can you show us and walk us through an upgrade? >> Sure, this's my little Thomas Block that I set up. It's powered by what Chris and secrets over, but it's still running on seven six. So let's upgrade that jump over to my house fee on satellite on. You see all my relate machines here, including the one I showed you what Consul on before. And there is that one with my sun block and there's a couple others. Let me select those as well. This one on that one. Just go up here. Schedule remote job. And she was really great. And hit Submit. I made it so that it makes the booms national before. So if anything was wrong Kans throwback! >> Okay, okay, so now it's progressing. Here, >> it's progressing. Looks like it's running. Doing >> live upgrade on stage. Uh, >> seems like one is failing. What's going on here? Okay, we checked the tree of great Chuck. Oh, yeah, that's the one I was playing around with Butter fest backstage. What? Detective that and you know, it doesn't run the Afghan cause we don't support operating that. >> Okay, so what I'm hearing now? So the good news is, we were protected from possible failed upgrade there, So it sounds like these upgrades are perfectly safe. Aiken, basically, you know, schedule this during a maintenance window and still get some sleep. >> Totally. That's the idea. >> Okay, fantastic. All right. So it looks like upgrades are easy and perfectly safe. And I really love what you showed us there. It's good point. Click operation right from satellite. Ok, so Well, you know, we were checking out upgrades. I want to know Josh. How those v ems coming along. >> They went really well. So you were away for so long. I got a little bored and I took some liberties. >> What do you mean? >> Well, the image Bill And, you know, I decided I'm going to go ahead and deploy here to this Intel machine on stage Esso. I have that up and running in the web. Counsel. I built another one on the arm box, which is actually pretty fast, and that's up and running on this. Our machine on that went so well that I decided to spend up some an Amazon. So I've got a few instances here running an Amazon with the web console accessible there as well. On even more of our pre bill image is up and running an azure with the web console there. So the really cool thing about this bird is that all of these images were built with image builder in a single location, controlling all the content that you want in your golden images deployed across the hybrid cloud. >> Wow, that is fantastic. And you might think that so we actually have more to show you. So thank you so much for that large. And Josh, that is fantastic. Looks like provisioning bread. Enterprise Clinic Systems ate a redhead. Enterprise Enterprise. Rhetta Enterprise Lennox. Eight Systems is Asian ever before, but >> we have >> more to talk to you about. And there's one thing that many of the operations professionals in this room right now no, that provisioning of'em is easy, but it's really day two day three, it's down the road that those viens required day to day maintenance. As a matter of fact, several you folks right now in this audience to have to manage hundreds, if not thousands, of virtual machines I recently spoke to. Gentleman has to manage thirteen hundred servers. So how do you manage those machines? A great scale. So great that they have now joined us is that it looks like they worked things out. So now I'm curious, Tim. How will we manage hundreds, if not thousands, of computers? >> Welbourne, one human managing hundreds or even thousands of'em says, No problem, because we have Ansel automation. And by leveraging Ansel's integration into satellite, not only can we spin up those V em's really quickly, like Josh was just doing, but we can also make ongoing maintenance of them really simple. Come on up here. I'm going to show you here a satellite inventory and his red hat is publishing patches. Weaken with that danceable integration easily apply those patches across our entire fleet of machines. Okay, >> that is fantastic. So he's all the machines can get updated in one fell swoop. >> He sure can. And there's one thing that I want to bring your attention to today because it's brand new. And that's cloud that red hat dot com And here, a cloud that redhead dot com You can view and manage your entire inventory no matter where it sits. Of Redhead Enterprise Lennox like on Prem on stage. Private Cloud or Public Cloud. It's true Hybrid cloud management. >> OK, but one thing. One thing. I know that in the minds of the audience right now. And if you have to manage a large number servers this it comes up again and again. What happens when you have those critical vulnerabilities that next zero day CV could be tomorrow? >> Exactly. I've actually been waiting for a while patiently for you >> to get to the really good stuff. So >> there's one more thing that I wanted to let folks know about. Red Hat Enterprise. The >> next eight and some features that we have there. Oh, >> yeah? What is that? >> So, actually, one of the key design principles of relate is working with our customers over the last twenty years to integrate all the knowledge that we've gained and turn that into insights that we can use to keep our red hat Enterprise Lennox servers running securely, inefficiently. And so what we actually have here is a few things that we could take a look at show folks what that is. >> OK, so we basically have this new feature. We're going to show people right now. And so one thing I want to make sure it's absolutely included within the redhead enterprise in that state. >> Yes. Oh, that's Ah, that's an announcement that we're making this week is that this is a brand new feature that's integrated with Red Hat Enterprise clinics, and it's available to everybody that has a red hat enterprise like subscription. So >> I believe everyone in this room right now has a rail subscriptions, so it's available to all of them. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So let's take a quick look and try this out. So we actually have. Here is a list of about six hundred rules. They're configuration security and performance rules. And this is this list is growing every single day, so customers can actually opt in to the rules that are most that are most applicable to their enterprises. So what we're actually doing here is combining the experience and knowledge that we have with the data that our customers opt into sending us. So customers have opted in and are sending us more data every single night. Then they actually have in total over the last twenty years via any other mechanism. >> Now there's I see now there's some critical findings. That's what I was talking about. But it comes to CVS and things that nature. >> Yeah, I'm betting that those air probably some of the rail seven boxes that we haven't actually upgraded quite yet. So we get back to that. What? I'd really like to show everybody here because everybody has access to this is how easy it is to opt in and enable this feature for real. Okay, let's do that real quick, so I gotta hop back over to satellite here. This is the satellite that we saw before, and I'll grab one of the hosts and we can use the new Web console feature that's part of Railly, and via single sign on I could jump right from satellite over to the Web console. So it's really, really easy. And I'LL grab a terminal here and registering with insights is really, really easy. Is one command troops, and what's happening right now is the box is going to gather some data. It's going to send it up to the cloud, and within just a minute or two, we're gonna have some results that we can look at back on the Web interface. >> I love it so it's just a single command and you're ready to register this box right now. That is super easy. Well, that's fantastic, >> Brent. We started this whole series of demonstrations by telling the audience that Red Hat Enterprise Lennox eight was the easiest, most economical and smartest operating system on the planet, period. And well, I think it's cute how you can go ahead and captain on a single machine. I'm going to show you one more thing. This is Answerable Tower. You can use as a bell tower to managing govern your answerable playbook, usage across your entire organization and with this. What I could do is on every single VM that was spun up here today. Opt in and register insights with a single click of a button. >> Okay, I want to see that right now. I know everyone's waiting for it as well, But hey, you're VM is ready. Josh. Lars? >> Yeah. My clock is running a little late now. Yeah, insights is a really cool feature >> of rail. And I've got it in all my images already. All >> right, I'm doing it all right. And so as this playbook runs across the inventory, I can see the machines registering on cloud that redhead dot com ready to be managed. >> OK, so all those onstage PM's as well as the hybrid cloud VM should be popping in IRC Post Chris equals Well, fantastic. >> That's awesome. Thanks to him. Nothing better than a Red Hat Summit speaker in the first live demo going off script deal. Uh, let's go back and take a look at some of those critical issues affecting a few of our systems here. So you can see this is a particular deanna's mask issue. It's going to affect a couple of machines. We saw that in the overview, and I can actually go and get some more details about what this particular issue is. So if you take a look at the right side of the screen there, there's actually a critical likelihood an impact that's associated with this particular issue. And what that really translates to is that there's a high level of risk to our organization from this particular issue. But also there's a low risk of change. And so what that means is that it's really, really safe for us to go ahead and use answerable to mediate this so I can grab the machines will select those two and we're mediate with answerable. I can create a new playbook. It's our maintenance window, but we'LL do something along the lines of like stuff Tim broke and that'LL be our cause. We name it whatever we want. So we'Ll create that playbook and take a look at it, and it's actually going to give us some details about the machines. You know what, what type of reboots Efendi you're going to be needed and what we need here. So we'LL go ahead and execute the playbook and what you're going to see is the outputs goingto happen in real time. So this is happening from the cloud were affecting machines. No matter where they are, they could be on Prem. They could be in a hybrid cloud, a public cloud or in a private cloud. And these things are gonna be remediated very, very easily with answerable. So it's really, really awesome. Everybody here with a red hat. Enterprise licks Lennox subscription has access to this now, so I >> kind of want >> everybody to go try this like, we really need to get this thing going and try it out right now. But >> don't know, sent about the room just yet. You get stay here >> for okay, Mr. Excitability, I think after this keynote, come back to the red hat booth and there's an optimization section. You can come talk to our insights engineers. And even though it's really easy to get going on your own, they can help you out. Answer any questions you might have. So >> this is really the start of a new era with an intelligent operating system and beauty with intelligence you just saw right now what insights that troubles you. Fantastic. So we're enabling systems administrators to manage more red in private clinics, a greater scale than ever before. I know there's a lot more we could show you, but we're totally out of time at this point, and we kind of, you know, when a little bit sideways here moments. But we need to get off the stage. But there's one thing I want you guys to think about it. All right? Do come check out the in the booth. Like Tim just said also in our debs, Get hands on red and a prize winning state as well. But really, I want you to think about this one human and a multitude of servers. And if you remember that one thing asked you upfront. Do you feel like you get a new superpower and redhead? Is your force multiplier? All right, well, thank you so much. Josh and Lars, Tim and Brent. Thank you. And let's get Paul back on stage. >> I went brilliant. No, it's just as always, >> amazing. I mean, as you can tell from last night were really, really proud of relate in that coming out here at the summit. And what a great way to showcase it. Thanks so much to you. Birth. Thanks, Brent. Tim, Lars and Josh. Just thanks again. So you've just seen this team demonstrate how impactful rail Khun b on your data center. So hopefully hopefully many of you. If not all of you have experienced that as well. But it was super computers. We hear about that all the time, as I just told you a few minutes ago, Lennox isn't just the foundation for enterprise and cloud computing. It's also the foundation for the fastest super computers in the world. In our next guest is here to tell us a lot more about that. >> Please welcome Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. HPC solution Architect Robin Goldstone. >> Thank you so much, Robin. >> So welcome. Welcome to the summit. Welcome to Boston. And thank thank you so much for coming for joining us. Can you tell us a bit about the goals of Lawrence Livermore National Lab and how high high performance computing really works at this level? >> Sure. So Lawrence Livermore National >> Lab was established during the Cold War to address urgent national security needs by advancing the state of nuclear weapons, science and technology and high performance computing has always been one of our core capabilities. In fact, our very first supercomputer, ah Univac one was ordered by Edward Teller before our lab even opened back in nineteen fifty two. Our mission has evolved since then to cover a broad range of national security challenges. But first and foremost, our job is to ensure the safety, security and reliability of the nation's nuclear weapons stockpile. Oh, since the US no longer performs underground nuclear testing, our ability to certify the stockpile depends heavily on science based science space methods. We rely on H P C to simulate the behavior of complex weapons systems to ensure that they can function as expected, well beyond their intended life spans. That's actually great. >> So are you really are still running on that on that Univac? >> No, Actually, we we've moved on since then. So Sierra is Lawrence Livermore. Its latest and greatest supercomputer is currently the Seconds spastic supercomputer in the world and for the geeks in the audience, I think there's a few of them out there. We put up some of the specs of Syrah on the screen behind me, a couple of things worth highlighting our Sierra's peak performance and its power utilisation. So one hundred twenty five Pata flops of performance is equivalent to about twenty thousand of those Xbox one excess that you mentioned earlier and eleven point six megawatts of power required Operate Sierra is enough to power around eleven thousand homes. Syria is a very large and complex system, but underneath it all, it starts out as a collection of servers running Lin IX and more specifically, rail. >> So did Lawrence. Did Lawrence Livermore National Lab National Lab used Yisrael before >> Sierra? Oh, yeah, most definitely. So we've been running rail for a very long time on what I'll call our mid range HPC systems. So these clusters, built from commodity components, are sort of the bread and butter of our computer center. And running rail on these systems provides us with a continuity of operations and a common user environment across multiple generations of hardware. Also between Lawrence Livermore in our sister labs, Los Alamos and Sandia. Alongside these commodity clusters, though, we've always had one sort of world class supercomputer like Sierra. Historically, these systems have been built for a sort of exotic proprietary hardware running entirely closed source operating systems. Anytime something broke, which was often the Vander would be on the hook to fix it. And you know, >> that sounds >> like a good model, except that what we found overtime is most the issues that we have on these systems were either due to the extreme scale or the complexity of our workloads. Vendors seldom had a system anywhere near the size of ours, and we couldn't give them our classified codes. So their ability to reproduce our problem was was pretty limited. In some cases, they've even sent an engineer on site to try to reproduce our problems. But even then, sometimes we wouldn't get a fix for months or else they would just tell us they weren't going to fix the problem because we were the only ones having it. >> So for many of us, for many of us, the challenges is one of driving reasons for open source, you know, for even open source existing. How has how did Sierra change? Things are on open source for >> you. Sure. So when we developed our technical requirements for Sierra, we had an explicit requirement that we want to run an open source operating system and a strong preference for rail. At the time, IBM was working with red hat toe add support Terrell for their new little Indian power architecture. So it was really just natural for them to bid a red. A rail bay system for Sierra running Raylan Cyril allows us to leverage the model that's worked so well for us for all this time on our commodity clusters any packages that we build for X eighty six, we can now build those packages for power as well as our market texture using our internal build infrastructure. And while we have a formal support relationship with IBM, we can also tap our in house colonel developers to help debug complex problems are sys. Admin is Khun now work on any of our systems, including Sierra, without having toe pull out their cheat sheet of obscure proprietary commands. Our users get a consistent software environment across all our systems. And if the security vulnerability comes out, we don't have to chase around getting fixes from Multan slo es fenders. >> You know, you've been able, you've been able to extend your foundation from all the way from X eighty six all all the way to the extract excess Excuse scale supercomputing. We talk about giving customers all we talked about it all the time. A standard operational foundation to build upon. This isn't This isn't exactly what we've envisioned. So So what's next for you >> guys? Right. So what's next? So Sierra's just now going into production. But even so, we're already working on the contract for our next supercomputer called El Capitan. That's scheduled to be delivered the Lawrence Livermore in the twenty twenty two twenty timeframe. El Capitan is expected to be about ten times the performance of Sierra. I can't share any more details about that system right now, but we are hoping that we're going to be able to continue to build on a solid foundation. That relish provided us for well over a decade. >> Well, thank you so much for your support of realm over the years, Robin. And And thank you so much for coming and tell us about it today. And we can't wait to hear more about El Capitan. Thank you. Thank you very much. So now you know why we're so proud of realm. And while you saw confetti cannons and T shirt cannons last night, um, so you know, as as burned the team talked about the demo rail is the force multiplier for servers. We've made Lennox one of the most powerful platforms in the history of platforms. But just as Lennox has become a viable platform with access for everyone, and rail has become viable, more viable every day in the enterprise open source projects began to flourish around the operating system. And we needed to bring those projects to our enterprise customers in the form of products with the same trust models as we did with Ralph seeing the incredible progress of software development occurring around Lennox. Let's let's lead us to the next goal that we said tow, tow ourselves. That goal was to make hybrid cloud the default enterprise for the architecture. How many? How many of you out here in the audience or are Cesar are? HC sees how many out there a lot. A lot. You are the people that our building the next generation of computing the hybrid cloud, you know, again with like just like our goals around Lennox. This goals might seem a little daunting in the beginning, but as a community we've proved it time and time again. We are unstoppable. Let's talk a bit about what got us to the point we're at right right now and in the work that, as always, we still have in front of us. We've been on a decade long mission on this. Believe it or not, this mission was to build the capabilities needed around the Lenox operating system to really build and make the hybrid cloud. When we saw well, first taking hold in the enterprise, we knew that was just taking the first step. Because for a platform to really succeed, you need applications running on it. And to get those applications on your platform, you have to enable developers with the tools and run times for them to build, to build upon. Over the years, we've closed a few, if not a lot of those gaps, starting with the acquisition of J. Boss many years ago, all the way to the new Cuban Eddie's native code ready workspaces we launched just a few months back. We realized very early on that building a developer friendly platform was critical to the success of Lennox and open source in the enterprise. Shortly after this, the public cloud stormed onto the scene while our first focus as a company was done on premise in customer data centers, the public cloud was really beginning to take hold. Rehl very quickly became the standard across public clouds, just as it was in the enterprise, giving customers that common operating platform to build their applications upon ensuring that those applications could move between locations without ever having to change their code or operating model. With this new model of the data center spread across so many multiple environments, management had to be completely re sought and re architected. And given the fact that environments spanned multiple locations, management, real solid management became even more important. Customers deploying in hybrid architectures had to understand where their applications were running in how they were running, regardless of which infrastructure provider they they were running on. We invested over the years with management right alongside the platform, from satellite in the early days to cloud forms to cloud forms, insights and now answerable. We focused on having management to support the platform wherever it lives. Next came data, which is very tightly linked toe applications. Enterprise class applications tend to create tons of data and to have a common operating platform foyer applications. You need a storage solutions. That's Justus, flexible as that platform able to run on premise. Just a CZ. Well, as in the cloud, even across multiple clouds. This let us tow acquisitions like bluster, SEF perma bitch in Nubia, complimenting our Pratt platform with red hat storage for us, even though this sounds very condensed, this was a decade's worth of investment, all in preparation for building the hybrid cloud. Expanding the portfolio to cover the areas that a customer would depend on to deploy riel hybrid cloud architectures, finding any finding an amplifying the right open source project and technologies, or filling the gaps with some of these acquisitions. When that necessarily wasn't available by twenty fourteen, our foundation had expanded, but one big challenge remained workload portability. Virtual machine formats were fragmented across the various deployments and higher level framework such as Java e still very much depended on a significant amount of operating system configuration and then containers happened containers, despite having a very long being in existence for a very long time. As a technology exploded on the scene in twenty fourteen, Cooper Netease followed shortly after in twenty fifteen, allowing containers to span multiple locations and in one fell swoop containers became the killer technology to really enable the hybrid cloud. And here we are. Hybrid is really the on ly practical reality in way for customers and a red hat. We've been investing in all aspects of this over the last eight plus years to make our customers and partners successful in this model. We've worked with you both our customers and our partners building critical realm in open shift deployments. We've been constantly learning about what has caused problems and what has worked well in many cases. And while we've and while we've amassed a pretty big amount of expertise to solve most any challenge in in any area that stack, it takes more than just our own learning's to build the next generation platform. Today we're also introducing open shit for which is the culmination of those learnings. This is the next generation of the application platform. This is truly a platform that has been built with our customers and not simply just with our customers in mind. This is something that could only be possible in an open source development model and just like relish the force multiplier for servers. Open shift is the force multiplier for data centers across the hybrid cloud, allowing customers to build thousands of containers and operate them its scale. And we've also announced open shift, and we've also announced azure open shift. Last night. Satya on this stage talked about that in depth. This is all about extending our goals of a common operating platform enabling applications across the hybrid cloud, regardless of whether you run it yourself or just consume it as a service. And with this flagship release, we are also introducing operators, which is the central, which is the central feature here. We talked about this work last year with the operator framework, and today we're not going to just show you today. We're not going to just show you open shift for we're going to show you operators running at scale operators that will do updates and patches for you, letting you focus more of your time and running your infrastructure and running running your business. We want to make all this easier and intuitive. So let's have a quick look at how we're doing. Just that >> painting. I know all of you have heard we're talking to pretend to new >> customers about the travel out. So new plan. Just open it up as a service been launched by this summer. Look, I know this is a big quest for not very big team. I'm open to any and all ideas. >> Please welcome back to the stage. Red Hat Global director of developer Experience burst Sutter with Jessica Forrester and Daniel McPherson. All right, we're ready to do some more now. Now. Earlier we showed you read Enterprise Clinic St running on lots of different hardware like this hardware you see right now And we're also running across multiple cloud providers. But now we're going to move to another world of Lennox Containers. This is where you see open shift four on how you can manage large clusters of applications from eggs limits containers across the hybrid cloud. We're going to see this is where suffer operators fundamentally empower human operators and especially make ups and Deb work efficiently, more efficiently and effectively there together than ever before. Rights. We have to focus on the stage right now. They're represent ops in death, and we're gonna go see how they reeled in application together. Okay, so let me introduce you to Dan. Dan is totally representing all our ops folks in the audience here today, and he's telling my ops, comfort person Let's go to call him Mr Ops. So Dan, >> thanks for with open before, we had a much easier time setting up in maintaining our clusters. In large part, that's because open shit for has extended management of the clusters down to the infrastructure, the diversity kinds of parent. When you take >> a look at the open ship console, >> you can now see the machines that make up the cluster where machine represents the infrastructure. Underneath that Cooper, Eddie's node open shit for now handles provisioning Andy provisioning of those machines. From there, you could dig into it open ship node and see how it's configured and monitor how it's behaving. So >> I'm curious, >> though it does this work on bare metal infrastructure as well as virtualized infrastructure. >> Yeah, that's right. Burn So Pa Journal nodes, no eternal machines and open shit for can now manage it all. Something else we found extremely useful about open ship for is that it now has the ability to update itself. We can see this cluster hasn't update available and at the press of a button. Upgrades are responsible for updating. The entire platform includes the nodes, the control plane and even the operating system and real core arrests. All of this is possible because the infrastructure components and their configuration is now controlled by technology called operators. Thes software operators are responsible for aligning the cluster to a desired state. And all of this makes operational management of unopened ship cluster much simpler than ever before. All right, I >> love the fact that all that's been on one console Now you can see the full stack right all way down to the bare metal right there in that one console. Fantastic. So I wanted to scare us for a moment, though. And now let's talk to Deva, right? So Jessica here represents our all our developers in the room as my facts. He manages a large team of developers here Red hat. But more importantly, she represents our vice president development and has a large team that she has to worry about on a regular basis of Jessica. What can you show us? We'LL burn My team has hundreds of developers and were constantly under pressure to deliver value to our business. And frankly, we can't really wait for Dan and his ops team to provisioned the infrastructure and the services that we need to do our job. So we've chosen open shift as our platform to run our applications on. But until recently, we really struggled to find a reliable source of Cooper Netease Technologies that have the operational characteristics that Dan's going to actually let us install through the cluster. But now, with operator, How bio, we're really seeing the V ecosystem be unlocked. And the technology's there. Things that my team needs, its databases and message cues tracing and monitoring. And these operators are actually responsible for complex applications like Prometheus here. Okay, they're written in a variety of languages, danceable, but that is awesome. So I do see a number of options there already, and preaches is a great example. But >> how do you >> know that one? These operators really is mature enough and robust enough for Dan and the outside of the house. Wilbert, Here we have the operator maturity model, and this is going to tell me and my team whether this particular operator is going to do a basic install if it's going to upgrade that application over time through different versions or all the way out to full auto pilot, where it's automatically scaling and tuning the application based on the current environment. And it's very cool. So coming over toothy open shift Consul, now we can actually see Dan has made the sequel server operator available to me and my team. That's the database that we're using. A sequel server. That's a great example. So cynics over running here in the cluster? But this is a great example for a developer. What if I want to create a new secret server instance? Sure, we're so it's as easy as provisioning any other service from the developer catalog. We come in and I can type for sequel server on what this is actually creating is, ah, native resource called Sequel Server, and you can think of that like a promise that a sequel server will get created. The operator is going to see that resource, install the application and then manage it over its life cycle, KAL, and from this install it operators view, I can see the operators running in my project and which resource is its managing Okay, but I'm >> kind of missing >> something here. I see this custom resource here, the sequel server. But where the community's resource is like pods. Yeah, I think it's cool that we get this native resource now called Sequel Server. But if I need to, I can still come in and see the native communities. Resource is like your staple set in service here. Okay, that is fantastic. Now, we did say earlier on, though, like many of our customers in the audience right now, you have a large team of engineers. Lost a large team of developers you gotta handle. You gotta have more than one secret server, right? We do one for every team as we're developing, and we use a lot of other technologies running on open shift as well, including Tomcat and our Jenkins pipelines and our dough js app that is gonna actually talk to that sequel server database. Okay, so this point we can kind of provisions, Some of these? Yes. Oh, since all of this is self service for me and my team's, I'm actually gonna go and create one of all of those things I just said on all of our projects, right Now, if you just give me a minute, Okay? Well, right. So basically, you're going to knock down No Jazz Jenkins sequel server. All right, now, that's like hundreds of bits of application level infrastructure right now. Live. So, Dan, are you not terrified? Well, I >> guess I should have done a little bit better >> job of managing guests this quota and historically just can. I might have had some conflict here because creating all these new applications would admit my team now had a massive back like tickets to work on. But now, because of software operators, my human operators were able to run our infrastructure at scale. So since I'm long into the cluster here as the cluster admin, I get this view of pods across all projects. And so I get an idea of what's happening across the entire cluster. And so I could see now we have four hundred ninety four pods already running, and there's a few more still starting up. And if I scroll to the list, we can see the different workloads Jessica just mentioned of Tomcats. And no Gs is And Jenkins is and and Siegel servers down here too, you know, I see continues >> creating and you have, like, close to five hundred pods running >> there. So, yeah, filters list down by secret server, so we could just see. Okay, But >> aren't you not >> running going around a cluster capacity at some point? >> Actually, yeah, we we definitely have a limited capacity in this cluster. And so, luckily, though, we already set up auto scale er's And so because the additional workload was launching, we see now those outer scholars have kicked in and some new machines are being created that don't yet have noticed. I'm because they're still starting up. And so there's another good view of this as well, so you can see machine sets. We have one machine set per availability zone, and you could see the each one is now scaling from ten to twelve machines. And the way they all those killers working is for each availability zone, they will. If capacities needed, they will add additional machines to that availability zone and then later effect fast. He's no longer needed. It will automatically take those machines away. >> That is incredible. So right now we're auto scaling across multiple available zones based on load. Okay, so looks like capacity planning and automation is fully, you know, handle this point. But I >> do have >> another question for year logged in. Is the cluster admin right now into the console? Can you show us your view of >> operator suffer operators? Actually, there's a couple of unique views here for operators, for Cluster admits. The first of those is operator Hub. This is where a cluster admin gets the ability to curate the experience of what operators are available to users of the cluster. And so obviously we already have the secret server operator installed, which which we've been using. The other unique view is operator management. This gives a cluster I've been the ability to maintain the operators they've already installed. And so if we dig in and see the secret server operator, well, see, we haven't set up for manual approval. And what that means is if a new update comes in for a single server, then a cluster and we would have the ability to approve or disapprove with that update before installs into the cluster, we'LL actually and there isn't upgrade that's available. Uh, I should probably wait to install this, though we're in the middle of scaling out this cluster. And I really don't want to disturb Jessica's application. Workflow. >> Yeah, so, actually, Dan, it's fine. My app is already up. It's running. Let me show it to you over here. So this is our products application that's talking to that sequel server instance. And for debugging purposes, we can see which version of sequel server we're currently talking to. Its two point two right now. And then which pod? Since this is a cluster, there's more than one secret server pod we could be connected to. Okay, I could see right there the bounder screeners they know to point to. That's the version we have right now. But, you know, >> this is kind of >> point of software operators at this point. So, you know, everyone in this room, you know, wants to see you hit that upgrade button. Let's do it. Live here on stage. Right, then. All >> right. All right. I could see where this is going. So whenever you updated operator, it's just like any other resource on communities. And so the first thing that happens is the operator pot itself gets updated so we actually see a new version of the operator is currently being created now, and what's that gets created, the overseer will be terminated. And that point, the new, softer operator will notice. It's now responsible for managing lots of existing Siegel servers already in the environment. And so it's then going Teo update each of those sickle servers to match to the new version of the single server operator and so we could see it's running. And so if we switch now to the all projects view and we filter that list down by sequel server, then we should be able to see us. So lots of these sickle servers are now being created and the old ones are being terminated. So is the rolling update across the cluster? Exactly a So the secret server operator Deploy single server and an H A configuration. And it's on ly updates a single instance of secret server at a time, which means single server always left in nature configuration, and Jessica doesn't really have to worry about downtime with their applications. >> Yeah, that's awesome dance. So glad the team doesn't have to worry about >> that anymore and just got I think enough of these might have run by Now, if you try your app again might be updated. >> Let's see Jessica's application up here. All right. On laptop three. >> Here we go. >> Fantastic. And yet look, we're We're into two before we're onto three. Now we're on to victory. Excellent on. >> You know, I actually works so well. I don't even see a reason for us to leave this on manual approval. So I'm going to switch this automatic approval. And then in the future, if a new single server comes in, then we don't have to do anything, and it'll be all automatically updated on the cluster. >> That is absolutely fantastic. And so I was glad you guys got a chance to see that rolling update across the cluster. That is so cool. The Secret Service database being automated and fully updated. That is fantastic. Alright, so I can see how a software operator doesn't able. You don't manage hundreds if not thousands of applications. I know a lot of folks or interest in the back in infrastructure. Could you give us an example of the infrastructure >> behind this console? Yeah, absolutely. So we all know that open shift is designed that run in lots of different environments. But our teams think that as your redhead over, Schiff provides one of the best experiences by deeply integrating the open chief Resource is into the azure console, and it's even integrated into the azure command line toll and the easy open ship man. And, as was announced yesterday, it's now available for everyone to try out. And there's actually one more thing we wanted to show Everyone related to open shit, for this is all so new with a penchant for which is we now have multi cluster management. This gives you the ability to keep track of all your open shift environments, regardless of where they're running as well as you can create new clusters from here. And I'll dig into the azure cluster that we were just taking a look at. >> Okay, but is this user and face something have to install them one of my existing clusters? >> No, actually, this is the host of service that's provided by Red hat is part of cloud that redhead that calm and so all you have to do is log in with your red hair credentials to get access. >> That is incredible. So one console, one user experience to see across the entire hybrid cloud we saw earlier with Red update. Right and red embers. Thank Satan. Now we see it for multi cluster management. But home shift so you can fundamentally see. Now the suffer operators do finally change the game when it comes to making human operators vastly more productive and, more importantly, making Devon ops work more efficiently together than ever before. So we saw the rich ice vehicle system of those software operators. We can manage them across the Khyber Cloud with any, um, shift instance. And more importantly, I want to say Dan and Jessica for helping us with this demonstration. Okay, fantastic stuff, guys. Thank you so much. Let's get Paul back out here >> once again. Thanks >> so much to burn his team. Jessica and Dan. So you've just seen how open shift operators can help you manage hundreds, even thousands of applications. Install, upgrade, remove nodes, control everything about your application environment, virtual physical, all the way out to the cloud making, making things happen when the business demands it even at scale, because that's where it's going to get. Our next guest has lots of experience with demand at scale. and they're using open source container management to do it. Their work, their their their work building a successful cloud, First platform and there, the twenty nineteen Innovation Award winner. >> Please welcome twenty nineteen Innovation Award winner. Cole's senior vice president of technology, Rich Hodak. >> How you doing? Thanks. >> Thanks so much for coming out. We really appreciate it. So I guess you guys set some big goals, too. So can you baby tell us about the bold goal? Helped you personally help set for Cole's. And what inspired you to take that on? Yes. So it was twenty seventeen and life was pretty good. I had no gray hair and our business was, well, our tech was working well, and but we knew we'd have to do better into the future if we wanted to compete. Retails being disrupted. Our customers are asking for new experiences, So we set out on a goal to become an open hybrid cloud platform, and we chose Red had to partner with us on a lot of that. We set off on a three year journey. We're currently in Year two, and so far all KP eyes are on track, so it's been a great journey thus far. That's awesome. That's awesome. So So you Obviously, Obviously you think open source is the way to do cloud computing. So way absolutely agree with you on that point. So So what? What is it that's convinced you even more along? Yeah, So I think first and foremost wait, do we have a lot of traditional IAS fees? But we found that the open source partners actually are outpacing them with innovation. So I think that's where it starts for us. Um, secondly, we think there's maybe some financial upside to going more open source. We think we can maybe take some cost out unwind from these big fellas were in and thirdly, a CZ. We go to universities. We started hearing. Is we interviewed? Hey, what is Cole's doing with open source and way? Wanted to use that as a lever to help recruit talent. So I'm kind of excited, you know, we partner with Red Hat on open shift in in Rail and Gloucester and active M Q and answerable and lots of things. But we've also now launched our first open source projects. So it's really great to see this journey. We've been on. That's awesome, Rich. So you're in. You're in a high touch beta with with open shift for So what? What features and components or capabilities are you most excited about and looking forward to what? The launch and you know, and what? You know what? What are the something maybe some new goals that you might be able to accomplish with with the new features. And yeah, So I will tell you we're off to a great start with open shift. We've been on the platform for over a year now. We want an innovation award. We have this great team of engineers out here that have done some outstanding work. But certainly there's room to continue to mature that platform. It calls, and we're excited about open shift, for I think there's probably three things that were really looking forward to. One is we're looking forward to, ah, better upgrade process. And I think we saw, you know, some of that in the last demo. So upgrades have been kind of painful up until now. So we think that that that will help us. Um, number two, A lot of our open shift workloads today or the workloads. We run an open shifts are the stateless apse. Right? And we're really looking forward to moving more of our state full lapse into the platform. And then thirdly, I think that we've done a great job of automating a lot of the day. One stuff, you know, the provisioning of, of things. There's great opportunity o out there to do mohr automation for day two things. So to integrate mohr with our messaging systems in our database systems and so forth. So we, uh we're excited. Teo, get on board with the version for wear too. So, you know, I hope you, Khun, we can help you get to the next goals and we're going to continue to do that. Thank you. Thank you so much rich, you know, all the way from from rail toe open shift. It's really exciting for us, frankly, to see our products helping you solve World War were problems. What's you know what? Which is. Really? Why way do this and and getting into both of our goals. So thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks for your support. We really appreciate it. Thanks. It has all been amazing so far and we're not done. A critical part of being successful in the hybrid cloud is being successful in your data center with your own infrastructure. We've been helping our customers do that in these environments. For almost twenty years now, we've been running the most complex work loads in the world. But you know, while the public cloud has opened up tremendous possibilities, it also brings in another type of another layer of infrastructure complexity. So what's our next goal? Extend your extend your data center all the way to the edge while being as effective as you have been over the last twenty twenty years, when it's all at your own fingertips. First from a practical sense, Enterprises air going to have to have their own data centers in their own environment for a very long time. But there are advantages of being able to manage your own infrastructure that expand even beyond the public cloud all the way out to the edge. In fact, we talked about that very early on how technology advances in computer networking is storage are changing the physical boundaries of the data center every single day. The need, the need to process data at the source is becoming more and more critical. New use cases Air coming up every day. Self driving cars need to make the decisions on the fly. In the car factory processes are using a I need to adapt in real time. The factory floor has become the new edge of the data center, working with things like video analysis of a of A car's paint job as it comes off the line, where a massive amount of data is on ly needed for seconds in order to make critical decisions in real time. If we had to wait for the video to go up to the cloud and back, it would be too late. The damage would have already been done. The enterprise is being stretched to be able to process on site, whether it's in a car, a factory, a store or in eight or nine PM, usually involving massive amounts of data that just can't easily be moved. Just like these use cases couldn't be solved in private cloud alone because of things like blatant see on data movement, toe address, real time and requirements. They also can't be solved in public cloud alone. This is why open hybrid is really the model that's needed in the only model forward. So how do you address this class of workload that requires all of the above running at the edge? With the latest technology all its scale, let me give you a bit of a preview of what we're working on. We are taking our open hybrid cloud technologies to the edge, Integrated with integrated with Aro AM Hardware Partners. This is a preview of a solution that will contain red had open shift self storage in K V M virtual ization with Red Hat Enterprise Lennox at the core, all running on pre configured hardware. The first hardware out of the out of the gate will be with our long time. Oh, am partner Del Technologies. So let's bring back burn the team to see what's right around the corner. >> Please welcome back to the stage. Red Hat. Global director of developer Experience burst Sutter with Kareema Sharma. Okay, We just how was your Foreign operators have redefined the capabilities and usability of the open hybrid cloud, and now we're going to show you a few more things. Okay, so just be ready for that. But I know many of our customers in this audience right now, as well as the customers who aren't even here today. You're running tens of thousands of applications on open chef clusters. We know that disappearing right now, but we also know that >> you're not >> actually in the business of running terminators clusters. You're in the business of oil and gas from the business retail. You're in a business transportation, you're in some other business and you don't really want to manage those things at all. We also know though you have lo latest requirements like Polish is talking about. And you also dated gravity concerns where you >> need to keep >> that on your premises. So what you're about to see right now in this demonstration is where we've taken open ship for and made a bare metal cluster right here on this stage. This is a fully automated platform. There is no underlying hyper visor below this platform. It's open ship running on bare metal. And this is your crew vanities. Native infrastructure, where we brought together via mes containers networking and storage with me right now is green mush arma. She's one of her engineering leaders responsible for infrastructure technologies. Please welcome to the stage, Karima. >> Thank you. My pleasure to be here, whether it had summit. So let's start a cloud. Rid her dot com and here we can see the classroom Dannon Jessica working on just a few moments ago From here we have a bird's eye view ofthe all of our open ship plasters across the hybrid cloud from multiple cloud providers to on premises and noticed the spare medal last year. Well, that's the one that my team built right here on this stage. So let's go ahead and open the admin console for that last year. Now, in this demo, we'LL take a look at three things. A multi plaster inventory for the open Harbor cloud at cloud redhead dot com. Second open shift container storage, providing convert storage for virtual machines and containers and the same functionality for cloud vert and bare metal. And third, everything we see here is scuba unit is native, so by plugging directly into communities, orchestration begin common storage. Let working on monitoring facilities now. Last year, we saw how continue native actualization and Q Bert allow you to run virtual machines on Cabinet is an open shift, allowing for a single converge platform to manage both containers and virtual machines. So here I have this dark net project now from last year behead of induced virtual machine running it S P darknet application, and we had started to modernize and continue. Arise it by moving. Parts of the application from the windows began to the next containers. So let's take a look at it here. I have it again. >> Oh, large shirt, you windows. Earlier on, I was playing this game back stage, so it's just playing a little solitaire. Sorry about that. >> So we don't really have time for that right now. Birds. But as I was saying, Over here, I have Visions Studio Now the window's virtual machine is just another container and open shift and the i d be service for the virtual machine. It's just another service in open shift open shifts. Running both containers and virtual machines together opens a whole new world of possibilities. But why stop there? So this here be broadened to come in. It is native infrastructure as our vision to redefine the operation's off on premises infrastructure, and this applies to all matters of workloads. Using open shift on metal running all the way from the data center to the edge. No by your desk, right to main benefits. Want to help reduce the operation casts And second, to help bring advance good when it is orchestration concept to your infrastructure. So next, let's take a look at storage. So open shift container storage is software defined storage, providing the same functionality for both the public and the private lads. By leveraging the operator framework, open shift container storage automatically detects the available hardware configuration to utilize the discs in the most optimal vein. So then adding my note, you don't have to think about how to balance the storage. Storage is just another service running an open shift. >> And I really love this dashboard quite honestly, because I love seeing all the storage right here. So I'm kind of curious, though. Karima. What kind of storage would you What, What kind of applications would you use with the storage? >> Yeah, so this is the persistent storage. To be used by a database is your files and any data from applications such as a Magic Africa. Now the A Patrick after operator uses school, been at this for scheduling and high availability, and it uses open shift containers. Shortest. Restore the messages now Here are on premises. System is running a caf co workload streaming sensor data on DH. We want toe sort it and act on it locally, right In a minute. A place where maybe we need low latency or maybe in a data lake like situation. So we don't want to send the starter to the cloud. Instead, we want to act on it locally, right? Let's look at the griffon a dashboard and see how our system is doing so with the incoming message rate of about four hundred messages for second, the system seems to be performing well, right? I want to emphasize this is a fully integrated system. We're doing the testing An optimization sze so that the system can Artoo tune itself based on the applications. >> Okay, I love the automated operations. Now I am a curious because I know other folks in the audience want to know this too. What? Can you tell us more about how there's truly integrated communities can give us an example of that? >> Yes. Again, You know, I want to emphasize everything here is managed poorly by communities on open shift. Right. So you can really use the latest coolest to manage them. All right. Next, let's take a look at how easy it is to use K native with azure functions to script alive Reaction to a live migration event. >> Okay, Native is a great example. If actually were part of my breakout session yesterday, you saw me demonstrate came native. And actually, if you want to get hands on with it tonight, you can come to our guru night at five PM and actually get hands on like a native. So I really have enjoyed using K. Dated myself as a software developer. And but I am curious about the azure functions component. >> Yeah, so as your functions is a function is a service engine developed by Microsoft fully open source, and it runs on top of communities. So it works really well with our on premises open shift here. Right now, I have a simple azure function that I already have here and this azure function, you know, Let's see if this will send out a tweet every time we live My greater Windows virtual machine. Right. So I have it integrated with open shift on DH. Let's move a note to maintenance to see what happens. So >> basically has that via moves. We're going to see the event triggered. They trigger the function. >> Yeah, important point I want to make again here. Windows virtue in machines are equal citizens inside of open shift. We're investing heavily in automation through the use of the operator framework and also providing integration with the hardware. Right, So next, Now let's move that note to maintain it. >> But let's be very clear here. I wanna make sure you understand one thing, and that is there is no underlying virtual ization software here. This is open ship running on bear. Meddle with these bare metal host. >> That is absolutely right. The system can automatically discover the bare metal hosts. All right, so here, let's move this note to maintenance. So I start them Internets now. But what will happen at this point is storage will heal itself, and communities will bring back the same level of service for the CAFTA application by launching a part on another note and the virtual machine belive my great right and this will create communities events. So we can see. You know, the events in the event stream changes have started to happen. And as a result of this migration, the key native function will send out a tweet to confirm that could win. It is native infrastructure has indeed done the migration for the live Ian. Right? >> See the events rolling through right there? >> Yeah. All right. And if we go to Twitter? >> All right, we got tweets. Fantastic. >> And here we can see the source Nord report. Migration has succeeded. It's a pretty cool stuff right here. No. So we want to bring you a cloud like experience, but this means is we're making operational ease a fuse as a top goal. We're investing heavily in encapsulating management knowledge and working to pre certify hardware configuration in working with their partners such as Dell, and they're dead already. Note program so that we can provide you guidance on specific benchmarks for specific work loads on our auto tuning system. >> All right, well, this is tow. I know right now, you're right thing, and I want to jump on the stage and check out the spare metal cluster. But you should not right. Wait After the keynote didn't. Come on, check it out. But also, I want you to go out there and think about visiting our partner Del and their booth where they have one. These clusters also. Okay, So this is where vmc networking and containers the storage all come together And a Kurban in his native infrastructure. You've seen right here on this stage, but an agreement. You have a bit more. >> Yes. So this is literally the cloud coming down from the heavens to us. >> Okay? Right here, Right now. >> Right here, right now. So, to close the loop, you can have your plaster connected to cloud redhead dot com for our insights inside reliability engineering services so that we can proactively provide you with the guidance through automated analyses of telemetry in logs and help flag a problem even before you notice you have it Beat software, hardware, performance, our security. And one more thing. I want to congratulate the engineers behind the school technology. >> Absolutely. There's a lot of engineers here that worked on this cluster and worked on the stack. Absolutely. Thank you. Really awesome stuff. And again do go check out our partner Dale. They're just out that door I can see them from here. They have one. These clusters get a chance to talk to them about how to run your open shift for on a bare metal cluster as well. Right, Kareema, Thank you so much. That was totally awesome. We're at a time, and we got to turn this back over to Paul. >> Thank you. Right. >> Okay. Okay. Thanks >> again. Burned, Kareema. Awesome. You know, So even with all the exciting capabilities that you're seeing, I want to take a moment to go back to the to the first platform tenant that we learned with rail, that the platform has to be developer friendly. Our next guest knows something about connecting a technology like open shift to their developers and part of their company. Wide transformation and their ability to shift the business that helped them helped them make take advantage of the innovation. Their Innovation award winner this year. Please, Let's welcome Ed to the stage. >> Please welcome. Twenty nineteen. Innovation Award winner. BP Vice President, Digital transformation. Ed Alford. >> Thanks, Ed. How your fake Good. So was full. Get right into it. What we go you guys trying to accomplish at BP and and How is the goal really important in mandatory within your organization? Support on everyone else were global energy >> business, with operations and over seventy countries. Andi. We've embraced what we call the jewel challenge, which is increasing the mind for energy that we have as individuals in the world. But we need to produce the energy with fuel emissions. It's part of that. One of our strategic priorities that we >> have is to modernize the whole group on. That means simplifying our processes and enhancing >> productivity through digital solutions. So we're using chlo based technologies >> on, more importantly, open source technologies to clear a community and say, the whole group that collaborates effectively and efficiently and uses our data and expertise to embrace the jewel challenge and actually try and help solve that problem. That's great. So So how did these heart of these new ways of working benefit your team and really the entire organ, maybe even the company as a whole? So we've been given the Innovation Award for Digital conveyor both in the way it was created and also in water is delivering a couple of guys in the audience poll costal and brewskies as he they they're in the team. Their teams developed that convey here, using our jail and Dev ops and some things. We talk about this stuff a lot, but actually the they did it in a truly our jail and develops we, um that enabled them to experiment and walking with different ways. And highlight in the skill set is that we, as a group required in order to transform using these approaches, we can no move things from ideation to scale and weeks and days sometimes rather than months. Andi, I think that if we can take what they've done on DH, use more open source technology, we contain that technology and apply across the whole group to tackle this Jill challenge. And I think that we use technologists and it's really cool. I think that we can no use technology and open source technology to solve some of these big challenges that we have and actually just preserve the planet in a better way. So So what's the next step for you guys at BP? So moving forward, we we are embracing ourselves, bracing a clothed, forced organization. We need to continue to live to deliver on our strategy, build >> over the technology across the entire group to address the jewel >> challenge and continue to make some of these bold changes and actually get into and really use. Our technology is, I said, too addresses you'LL challenge and make the future of our planet a better place for ourselves and our children and our children's children. That's that's a big goal. But thank you so much, Ed. Thanks for your support. And thanks for coming today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now comes the part that, frankly, I think his best part of the best part of this presentation We're going to meet the type of person that makes all of these things a reality. This tip this type of person typically works for one of our customers or with one of with one of our customers as a partner to help them make the kinds of bold goals like you've heard about today and the ones you'll hear about Maura the way more in the >> week. I think the thing I like most about it is you feel that reward Just helping people I mean and helping people with stuff you enjoy right with computers. My dad was the math and science teacher at the local high school. And so in the early eighties, that kind of met here, the default person. So he's always bringing in a computer stuff, and I started a pretty young age. What Jason's been able to do here is Mohr evangelize a lot of the technologies between different teams. I think a lot of it comes from the training and his certifications that he's got. He's always concerned about their experience, how easy it is for them to get applications written, how easy it is for them to get them up and running at the end of the day. We're a loan company, you know. That's way we lean on accounting like red. That's where we get our support front. That's why we decided to go with a product like open shift. I really, really like to product. So I went down. The certification are out in the training ground to learn more about open shit itself. So my daughter's teacher, they were doing a day of coding, and so they asked me if I wanted to come and talk about what I do and then spend the day helping the kids do their coding class. The people that we have on our teams, like Jason, are what make us better than our competitors, right? Anybody could buy something off the shelf. It's people like him. They're able to take that and mold it into something that then it is a great offering for our partners and for >> customers. Please welcome Red Hat Certified Professional of the Year Jason Hyatt. >> Jason, Congratulations. Congratulations. What a what a big day, huh? What a really big day. You know, it's great. It's great to see such work, You know that you've done here. But you know what's really great and shows out in your video It's really especially rewarding. Tow us. And I'm sure to you as well to see how skills can open doors for for one for young women, like your daughters who already loves technology. So I'd liketo I'd like to present this to you right now. Take congratulations. Congratulations. Good. And we I know you're going to bring this passion. I know you bring this in, everything you do. So >> it's this Congratulations again. Thanks, Paul. It's been really exciting, and I was really excited to bring my family here to show the experience. It's it's >> really great. It's really great to see him all here as well going. Maybe we could you could You guys could stand up. So before we leave before we leave the stage, you know, I just wanted to ask, What's the most important skill that you'LL pass on from all your training to the future generations? >> So I think the most important thing is you have to be a continuous learner you can't really settle for. Ah, you can't be comfortable on learning, which I already know. You have to really drive a continuous Lerner. And of course, you got to use the I ninety. Maxwell. Quite. >> I don't even have to ask you the question. Of course. Right. Of course. That's awesome. That's awesome. And thank you. Thank you for everything, for everything that you're doing. So thanks again. Thank you. You know what makes open source work is passion and people that apply those considerable talents that passion like Jason here to making it worked and to contribute their idea there. There's back. And believe me, it's really an impressive group of people. You know you're family and especially Berkeley in the video. I hope you know that the redhead, the certified of the year is the best of the best. The cream of the crop and your dad is the best of the best of that. So you should be very, very happy for that. I also and I also can't wait. Teo, I also can't wait to come back here on this stage ten years from now and present that same award to you. Berkeley. So great. You should be proud. You know, everything you've heard about today is just a small representation of what's ahead of us. We've had us. We've had a set of goals and realize some bold goals over the last number of years that have gotten us to where we are today. Just to recap those bold goals First bait build a company based solely on open source software. It seems so logical now, but it had never been done before. Next building the operating system of the future that's going to run in power. The enterprise making the standard base platform in the op in the Enterprise Olympics based operating system. And after that making hybrid cloud the architecture of the future make hybrid the new data center, all leading to the largest software acquisition in history. Think about it around us around a company with one hundred percent open source DNA without. Throughout. Despite all the fun we encountered over those last seventeen years, I have to ask, Is there really any question that open source has won? Realizing our bold goals and changing the way software is developed in the commercial world was what we set out to do from the first day in the Red Hat was born. But we only got to that goal because of you. Many of you contributors, many of you knew toe open source software and willing to take the risk along side of us and many of partners on that journey, both inside and outside of Red Hat. Going forward with the reach of IBM, Red hat will accelerate. Even Mohr. This will bring open source general innovation to the next generation hybrid data center, continuing on our original mission and goal to bring open source technology toe every corner of the planet. What I what I just went through in the last hour Soul, while mind boggling to many of us in the room who have had a front row seat to this overto last seventeen plus years has only been red hats. First step. Think about it. We have brought open source development from a niche player to the dominant development model in software and beyond. Open Source is now the cornerstone of the multi billion dollar enterprise software world and even the next generation hybrid act. Architecture would not even be possible without Lennox at the core in the open innovation that it feeds to build around it. This is not just a step forward for software. It's a huge leap in the technology world beyond even what the original pioneers of open source ever could have imagined. We have. We have witnessed open source accomplished in the last seventeen years more than what most people will see in their career. Or maybe even a lifetime open source has forever changed the boundaries of what will be possible in technology in the future. And in the one last thing to say, it's everybody in this room and beyond. Everyone outside continue the mission. Thanks have a great sum. It's great to see it

>> Live from San Jose, in the heart of Silicone Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Datawork Summit 2018. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Dataworks Summit here in San Jose, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost James Kobielus. We're joined by Scott Gnau, he is the chief technology officer at Hortonworks. Welcome back to theCUBE, Scott. >> Great to be here. >> It's always fun to have you on the show. So, you have really spent your entire career in the data industry. I want to start off at 10,000 feet, and just have you talk about where we are now, in terms of customer attitudes, in terms of the industry, in terms of where customers feel, how they're dealing with their data and how they're thinking about their approach in their business strategy. >> Well I have to say, 30 plus years ago starting in the data field, it wasn't as exciting as it is today. Of course, I always found it very exciting. >> Exciting means nerve-wracking. Keep going. >> Or nerve-wracking. But you know, we've been predicting it. I remember even you know, 10, 15 years ago before big data was a thing, it's like oh all this data's going to come, and it's going to be you know 10x what it is. And we were wrong. It was like 5000x, you know what it is. And I think the really exciting part is that data really used to be relegated frankly, to big companies as a derivative work of ERP systems, and so on and so forth. And while that's very interesting, and certainly enabled a whole level of productivity for industry, when you compare that to all of the data flying around everywhere today, whether it be Twitter feeds and even doing live polls, like we did in the opening session today. Data is just being created everywhere. And the same thing applies to that data that applied to the ERP data of old. And that is being able to harness, manage and understand that data is a new business creating opportunity. And you know, we were with some analysts the other day, and I think one of the more quoted things that came out of that when I was speaking with them, was really, like railroads and shipping in the 1800s and oil in the 1900s, data really is the wealth creator of this century. And so that creates a very nerve-wracking environment. It also creates an environment, a very agile and very important technological breakthroughs that enable those things to be turned into wealth. >> So thinking about that, in terms of where we are at this point in time and on the main stage this morning someone had likened it to the interstate highway system, that really revolutionized transportation, but also commerce. >> I love that actually. I may steal it in some of my future presentations. >> That's good but we'll know where you pilfered it. >> Well perhaps if data is oil the edge, in containerized applications and piping data, you know, microbursts of data across the internet of things, is sort of like the new fracking. You know, you're being able to extract more of this precious resource from the territory. >> Hopefully not quite as damaging to the environment. >> Maybe not. I'm sorry for environmentalist if I just offended you, I apologize. >> But I think you know, all of those analogies are very true, and I particularly like the interstate one this morning. Because when I think about what we've done in our core http platform, and I know Arun was here talking about all the great advances that we built into this, the kind of the core hadoop platform. Very traditional. Store data, analyze data but also bring in new kinds of algorithms, rapid innovation and so on. That's really great but that's kind of half of the story. In a device connected world, in a consumer centric world, capturing data at the edge, moving and processing data at the edge is the new normal, right? And so just like the interstate highway system actually created new ways of commerce because we could move people and things more efficiently, moving data and processing data more efficiently is kind of the second part of the opportunity that we have in this new deluge of data. And that's really where we've been with our Hortonworks data flow. And really saying that the complete package of managing data from origination at the edge all the way through analytic to decision that's triggered back at the edge is like the holy grail, right? And building a technology for that footprint, is why I'm certainly excited today. It's not the caffeine, it's just the opportunity of making all of that work. >> You know, one of the, I think the key announcement for me at this show, that you guys made on HDP 3.0 was containerization of more of the capabilities of your distributed environment so that these capabilities, in terms of processing. First of all, capturing and analyzing an moving that data, can be pushed closer to the end points. Can you speak a bit Scott, about this new capability or this containerization support? Within HDP 3.0 but really in your broader portfolio and where you're going with that in terms of addressing edge applications perhaps, autonomous vehicles or you know, whatever you might put into a new smart phone or whatever you put at the edge. Describe the potential containerizations to sort of break this ecosystem wide open. >> Yeah, I think there are a couple of aspects to containerization and by the way, we're like so excited about kind of the cloud first, containerized HDP 3.0 that we launched here today. There's a lot of great tech that our customers have been clamoring for that they can take advantage of. And it's really just the beginning, which again is part of the excitement of being in the technology space and certainly being part of Hortonworks. So containerization affords a couple of things. Certainly, agility. Agility in deploying applications. So, you know for 30 years we've built these enterprise software stacks that were very integrated, hugely complicated systems that could bring together multiple different applications, different workloads and manage all that in a multi-tendency kind of environment. And that was because we had to do that, right? Servers were getting bigger, they were more powerful but not particularly well distributed. Obviously in a containerized world, you now turn that whole paradigm on its head and you say, you know what? I'm just going to collect these three microservices that I need to do this job. I can isolate them. I can have them run in a server-less technology. I can actually allocate in the cloud servers to go run, and when they're done they go away. And I don't pay for them anymore. So thinking about kind of that from a software development deployment implementation perspective, there huge implications but the real value for customers is agility, right? I don't have to wait until next year to upgrade my enterprise software stack to take advantage of this new algorithm. I can simply isolate it inside of a container, have it run, and have it go away. And get the answer, right? And so when I think about, and a number of our keynotes this morning were talking about just kind of the exponential rate of change, this is really the net new norm. Because the only way we can do things faster, is in fact to be able to provide this. >> And it's not just microservices. Also orchestrating them through Kubernetes, and so forth, so they can be. >> Sure. That's the how versus yeah. >> Quickly deployed as an ensemble and then quickly de-provisioned when you don't need them anymore. >> Yeah so then there's obviously the cost aspect, right? >> Yeah. >> So if you're going to run a whole bunch of stuff or even if you have something as mundane as a really big merge join inside of hive. Let me spin up a thousand extra containers to go do that big thing, and then have them go away when it's done. >> And oh, by the way, you'll be deployed on. >> And only pay for it while I'm using it. >> And then you can possibly distribute those containers across different public clouds depending on what's most cost effective at any point in time Azure or AWS or whatever it might be. >> And I tease with Arun, you know the only thing that we haven't solved is for the speed of light, but we're working on it. >> In talking about how this warp speed change, being the new norm, can you talk about some of the most exciting use cases you've seen in terms of the customers and clients that are using Hortonworks in the coolest ways. >> Well I mean obviously autonomous vehicles is one that we all captured all of our imagination. 'Cause we understand how that works. But it's a perfect use case for this kind of technology. But the technology also applies in fraud detection and prevention. It applies in healthcare management, in proactive personalized medicine delivery, and in generating better outcomes for treatment. So, you know, all across. >> It will bind us in every aspect of our lives including the consumer realm increasingly, yeah. >> Yeah, all across the board. And you know one of the things that really changed, right, is well a couple things. A lot of bandwidth so you can start to connect these things. The devices themselves are particularly smart, so you don't any longer have to transfer all the data to a mainframe and then wait three weeks, sorry, wait three weeks for your answer and then come back. You can have analytic models running on and edge device. And think about, you know, that is really real time. And that actually kind of solves for the speed of light. 'Cause you're not waiting for those things to go back and forth. So there are a lot of new opportunities and those architectures really depend on some of the core tenets of ultimately containerization stateless application deployment and delivery. And they also depend on the ability to create feedback loops to do point-to-point and peer kinds of communication between devices. This is a whole new world of how data get moved and how the decisions around date movement get made. And certainly that's what we're excited about, building with the core components. The other implication of all of this, and we've know each other for a long time. Data has gravity. Data movements expensive. It takes time, frankly, you have to pay for the bandwidth and all that kind of stuff. So being able to play the data where it lies becomes a lot more interesting from an application portability perspective and with all of these new sensors, devices and applications out there, a lot more data is living its entire lifecycle in the cloud. And so being able to create that connective tissue. >> Or as being as terralexical on the edge. >> And even on the edge. >> In with machine learn, let me just say, butt in a second. One of the areas that we're focusing on increasingly in Wikibot in terms of our focus on machine learning at the edge, is more and more machine learning frameworks are coming into the browser world. Javascript for the most like tenser flow JS, you know more of this inferencing and training is going to happen inside your browser. That blows a lot of people's minds. It may not be heavy hitting machine learning, but it'll be good enough for a lot of things that people do in their normal life. Where you don't want to round trip back to the cloud. It's all happening right there, in you know, Chrome or whatever you happen to be using. >> Yeah and so the point being now, you know when I think about the early days, talking about scalability, I remember ship being my first one terabyte database. And then the first 10 terabyte database. Yeah, it doesn't sound very exciting. When I think about scalability of the future, it's really going to, scalability is not going to be defined as petabytes or exabytes under management. It's really going to be defined as petabytes or exabytes affected across a grid of storage and processing devices. And that's a whole new technology paradigm, and really that's kind of the driving force behind what we've been building and what we've been talking about at this conference. >> Excellent. >> So when you're talking about these things. I mean how much, are the companies themselves prepared, and do they have the right kind of talent to use the kinds of insights that you're able to extract? And then act on them in the real time. 'Cause you're talking about how this is saving a lot of the waiting around time. So is this really changing the way business gets done, and do companies have the talent to execute? >> Sure. I mean it's changing the way business gets done. We showed a quote on stage this morning from the CEO of Marriott, right? So, I think there a couple of pieces. One is business are increasingly data driven and business strategy is increasingly the data strategy. And so it starts from the top, kind of setting that strategy and understanding the value of that asset and how that needs to be leveraged to drive new business. So that's kind of one piece. And you know, obviously there are more and more folks kind of coming to the realization that that is important. The other thing that's been helpful is, you know, as with any new technology there's always kind of the startup shortage of resource and people start to spool up and learn. You know the really good news, and for the past 10 years I've been working with a number of different university groups. Parents are actually going to universities and demanding that the curriculum include data, and processing and big data and all of these technologies. Because they know that their children educated in that kind of a world, number one, they're going to have a fun job to go to everyday. 'Cause it's going to be something different everyday. But number two they're going to be employed for life. (laughing) >> Yeah. >> They will be solvent. >> Frankly the demand has actually created a catch up in supply that we're seeing. And of course, you know, as tools start to get more mature and more integrated, they also become a little bit easier to use. You know, less, there's a little bit easier deployment and so on. So a combination of, I'm seeing a really good supply, there really, obviously we invest in education through the community. And then frankly, the education system itself, and folks saying this is really the hot job of the next century. You know, I can be the new oil barren. Or I can be the new railroad captain. It's actually creating more supply which is also very helpful. >> Data's the heart of what I call the new stem cell. It's science, technology, engineering, mathematics that you want to implant in the brains of the young as soon as possible. I hear ya. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Well Scott thanks so much for coming on. But I want to first also, we can't let you go without the fashion statement. You arrived on set wearing it. >> The elephants. >> I mean it was quite a look. >> Well I did it because then you couldn't see I was sweating on my brow. >> Oh please, no, no, no. >> 'Cause I was worried about this tough interview. >> You know one of the things I love about your logo, and I'll just you know, sounds like I'm fawning. The elephant is a very intelligent animal. >> It is indeed. >> My wife's from Indonesia. I remember going back one time they had Asian elephants at a one of these safari parks. And watching it perform, and then my son was very little then. The elephant is a very sensitive, intelligent animal. You don't realize 'till you're up close. They pick up all manner of social cues. I think it's an awesome symbol for a company that's all about data driven intelligence. >> The elephant never forgets. >> Yeah. >> That's what we know. >> That's right we never forget. >> Him forget 'cause he's got a brain. Or she, I'm sorry. He or she has a brain. >> And it's data driven. >> Yeah. >> Thanks very much. >> Great. Well thanks for coming on theCUBE. I'm Rebecca Knight for James Kobielus. We will have more coming up from Dataworks just after this. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube. Covering VMWorld 2017 brought to you by VMWare. And its ecosystem partners. (techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone we are live here in Las Vegas for VMWorld 2017. We are on the floor. I'm John Furrier with the Cube with Dave Vellante our next guest is Juan Vega director ready solutions product manager for Dell EMC. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. For my first time, really looking forward to it. >> Okay first what's ready solutions mean? >> So ready solutions are literally a bunch of services that we apply to infrastructure to help build confidence, convenience, and a better customer experience. For folks who are consuming a do-it-yourself, who want to take a do-it-yourself approach to converge systems or SDDS. >> John: So I got the button that says Node-a-Rama. What does that that button? >> Node-a-Rama well, we're launching a bunch of nodes this year right. We have a lot of nodes that we're putting out there for a variety of workloads including vSAN right and with vSAN we're introducing 14 G technology to this you know this show. We just launched it recently and we're bringing lots of new performance technologies in that 14 G space. It'll help a bunch with software defined storage. >> Node-a-Rama, John likes developers, he thought it was node JS or something, he was getting excited. So I wonder if you could talk to something that we've been addressing all week here on the Cube. You see in VM Ware's results a lot of momentum and it's not just, doesn't look like it's a one quarter, I mean three quarters of growth appears to be some momemtum. The AWS deal sort of clarified for customers the Cloud strategy and I think the other piece that we've been talking about is the reality that customers have that you're not able to reform their business and stick it in the Cloud. They're really trying to take the Cloud model and bring it to their data and in order to do that they need simplification. So first of all do you buy that and what are you guys doing to facilitate that? >> I absolutely buy it. I mean if I look at Dell EMC's capabilities across the spectrum right, there's a broad variety of services that we can offer a customer to help them adopt that technology right. We call it sort of absorbing their tech debt as it were. And we can do that from very basic do-it-yourself hardware infrastructure right all the way up through you talked to Colin earlier today and we talked about VxRail and VxRack. We're actually providing sort of life cycle management for those environments. With ready nodes and ready bundles, between those two. There's a little bit more service, a little bit more confidence, a little bit more convenience, a little faster time to value right, on that infrastructure, without really moving the customer to a, an environment where we manage it for them. >> Okay and so why do you need to do that you know? I though VMWare was so simple, push a button and go. Talk about sort of how you're closing that gap. >> It can be simple and once you're in the virtualization layer it absolutely is simple but there's a relationship between the virtualization layer and the hardware that has to be maintained. So why is there an HCL right? Why is, why do we that? Because there's a known relationship between that software and that hardware that enables that virtualization. We're making that easier and easier for customers all the time. >> And virtualization does not equate to Cloud. >> Juan: Of course. >> So how do you look at Cloud. How do you sort of, I don't want to get into what do you define as Cloud but, at what point do customers say yes, this is a viable alternative for me to attack my IT labor problem, to for me to tick the box with my management that I'm you know cutting cost. You know et cetera, what are those attributes that you are driving toward that you see customers demanding today? >> Well I see that space evolving right. And the part that we're focusing on ready nodes, is really focused on that software defined storage component. So as that piece of the puzzle evolves, all right we're trying to remove complexity in that environment right. Go back to that ability to confidently present you with a hardware solution that is absolutely adapted for that software environment. Make it faster time to value so that it's showing up pre-configured with services that help you enable that environment more quickly right and then should something need to be done, you know downstream, say a drive fails or whatever right, we can provide a better support experience by contextualizing that hardware in that environment. So it's a space for customers who are still very much doing it themselves, very much building their own environment right in the software defined storage space. But we're providing a set of services that increase that confidence for them right and make it more convenient, give them a better experience. >> It's interesting you know, this is our eighth VM World. Dave and I have been here since 2010. It's been great run, thank everyone for watching the Cube, we love coming every year. But it's been interesting watching the journey. Software defined data center, the hype was what five years ago? Maybe four years ago. But now it's reality. NSX is baked in there, crown jewel. Crowd native coming in over the top. vSAN has been like this rising star. Server SAN from Wikibon has crushed it on the research side. But I got to ask you, now we're hearing customers deploy new use cases under digital transformation that merged software stacks with hardware stacks. What is the biggest challenge that customers have 'cause they want more vSAN. How are you guys helping customers get more vSAN and what are some of the key challenges that you guys solve. >> Well I think there's a couple things that we're doing. First of all we're enabling a very broad set of hardware including cutting edge technologies that are helping them improve the performance, improve the reliability of their implementations in this space. So today we're looking at six different hardware platforms with about 15 different configurations on the HCL and we're expanding that this month significantly. All of those can be delivered. >> John: On the hardware side. >> On the hardware side. >> Okay got it. >> All those can be delivered in a way that they fit seamlessly into a data center environment that's deploying software defined storage. So, I think helping them simplify that is really how we're trying to make this more of a reality and Dell has always brought strong operationalization to any customer we worked with. >> So I got to ask you on the software side, again software's eating the world, Wikibon's true private Cloud report really validating a lot of the success that vSAN's having. I mean all the actions on premise. Transforming the Cloud operating model which is to be more agile. What is the key software piece of it because now you've got DevOps, the Cloud native side saying hey infrastructure is code. I want you to run invisible. The Ops guys saying wait a minute, we got hardware stacks, you got software stacks, they got to come together. >> Absolutely, so our open manage enterprise solution is our software connection for helping manage that hardware in the vSan vCenter environment. And it allows them to actually move all of the controls for updating and managing that system into one pane of glass which is their vSAN vCenter pane of glass. And so we're really trying to help drive that automation, enable that capability for the do-it-yourself customer. Now if the customer wants to have significantly less tech debt then we're happy to talk to them about VxRail and VxRack where we start adding more management software capabilities to help drive an even better experience. >> One more thing you mentioned tech debts. I want to get that on the table. Real issue is technology debt meaning trying to move faster, take some short cuts or you know move the needle too fast. What are some of the technical debts that customers are getting into and where's, what's good technical debt and what's a bad technical debt? >> Oh that's a tough question. I think that in terms of good, of bad technical debt, let's start there right. Anything is going to be sort of routine, spread across lots of different customers within a base that could be off, offloaded to a service provider who can provide that sort of scale is bad technical debt. So things like driver updates, managing your HCL, paying attention to how to go about replacing a hard drive in a server that's gone down in a node. Right those are sort of bad technical debt. You shouldn't be wasting your resources that are focused on your business outcomes on that sort of technical debt. And even at our most basic level, the ready node, we're starting to provide that level of service to the customer. And I think we advance that even more as we get into our rails and racks. In terms of good technical debt, yet to be determined but I would suspect that a lot of that has to do with developing the code. >> John: Debt you can pay back. >> Right, that you can pay back. >> As I tell Dave, we don't want to take on too much debt and then can't pay it back. We'll be bankrupt. >> And that's the sort of code that's directly tied to your environment right. So for example all of the AI infrastructure that they were building in the keynote today for the pizza company right. That's a good example of I'm developing code that's intellectual property for my business, that's good technical debt. I'm going to pay it off. Gives me a competitive advantage. >> That you could use. >> Exactly right. >> Dave: To pay off the... >> Precisely. >> The investments that you've made. So you, you're a disrupter of sets. I mean you've got John talked about the server SAN. We, it's something we published years ago. And basically you're disrupting an install base that you guys own. Right? >> Sounds like a story I heard a long time ago when virtualization first came on the scene. Oh we're going to be running out of servers. That didn't happen, we're selling more servers than we ever have. >> Oh yeah not that you'll stop selling but you, you've got this massive install base and you're essentially, where appropriate migrating that install base to a new way. >> Of course. >> I wonder if you could talk about that dynamic and what those customer conversations are like. >> Well I think it's important to us to be a trusted advisor to our customers. It's always been Dell's sort of way of doing business right. We roll up our sleeves and we get to work with you. So as this transition is applying, is happening to the industry, I think it's up to us to provide those kind of you know feet on the street services that make it easier for customers to absorb and deal with that transition right. And again I know I sound like the broken record here but it's about helping them have confidence that as they move into this transition, they're not having to deal with all the vagaries of mismatched hardware and software incompatibilities. It's about being able to get faster time to value because we did some of the basic steps like pre-configuring that system so it's just ready to go right. >> And what about workloads? How do you see those evolving? 'Cause that's one piece is simplification and you know tacking the IT labor problem with non-differentiated patching and other stuff. The bad technical debt you guys were talking about. What about workloads, what are you seeing emerge in terms of the types of workloads that have an affinity to these types of systems. >> Well I think you know we heard Chad talk earlier about how the network was becoming sort of the bottleneck right. And I think that we're seeing more and more storage, workloads with an affinity for storage moving into the Cloud space, right into the converted space as that technology begins to evolve. And we're seeing things like the new NVME drives in our 14 G servers. All right we have six X the capacity that we had before which means applications, workloads that have a storage affinity are able to actually start moving into this more, I know you'd only use the work virtualized, but this more software defined space. >> Right. >> All right bottom line if a customer's ready node, you guys are doing some good stuff, vSAN's hot, Gelsinger said the world's going to get much faster, today's the slowest day of your life going forward, or something along those lines. There's the implying that it's going to get pretty crazy. Peter Burris head of research for Wikibon.com said the whole computer industry's been turned upside down, it's going to be landing on the table and it's going to re-sort itself out. When you deal with customers, how, what's that conversation like because they're scrambling to lock down their true private Cloud on on premise. They see hybrid Cloud as that pathway to multi Cloud. That's their end stage but right now they got to take care of business at home. That's like cleaning up their own house in IT, what are some of those conversations when that kind of disruption, chaos, complexity. >> Sure, I think everyone's looking for a little bit more of that confidence right and the whole relationship with their supply chain. We're doing it, our customers are doing it and every time we have that conversation with them it basically boils down to what can you do for me that is going to make it easier for me to deal with this transition. How can I trust that these-- >> So ease of use. Is a big thing. >> Juan: I'm sorry? >> Ease of use. Pretty big deal? >> Not just ease of use, but trust that I'll be supported downstream right. So a ready node builds that for example into its value proposition. We want to make sure that you understand that downstream we know what you're using it for and we're able to help you in that context and that's a real key example of how I think we help build that trust with our customers. >> Michael Dell, final question for you talk about just really, final question for you is that Michael Dell was mentioning the technology synergy between Dell technologies cross the portfolio including VMWare. So the question for you is what are some of the synergies that you guys are getting with VMWare? How does that put it to motion? >> Sure, there are several actually. We've done a lot of our development work in the VxRail space around management in conjunction with VMWare. I think that the evolution of the software defined space is being driven by them and we're happy to participate in it in every way we can. So I think there's a lot of, a lot of development and tech support opportunities that we're finding in that relationship. >> So positive outcomes you guys are having a good time. Certainly VMWare's doing great. Good to see Pat Gelsinger on the upslope in terms of stock prices up over a hundred and four. As of yesterday, I haven't even checked what it was today but certainly clarity in the community, clarity in the ecosystem, clarity in the product. Cloud and IoT Edge. I mean the wave slide is pretty much baked at this point. >> Yup. >> And execution. >> And I'm excited to see Dell EMC having a presence across that whole breadth. >> Yeah Dave was commenting it seems like that new Dell technologies is much more sanity now in the community, it's all sorted out. Looking good, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> Juan Vega director, ready solutions with Dell EMC's product management. He's the product czar. Thanks for spending the time. It's the Cube coverage live here at VMWorld 2017, day two of three days of wall to wall coverage. Be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are in downtown San Francisco at the Mission Bay Convention Center at Node Summit 2017. We've been coming to Node Summit off and on for a number of years. And it's pretty amazing, the growth of this application for development. It really seems to take off. There's about 800 or 900 people here. It's kind of the limits of the facility here at Mission Bay. But we're really excited to be here. And it's not surprising to have me see Intel is here in full force. Our first guest is Monica Ene-Pietrosanu. And she is the Director of Software Engineering for Intel, welcome. >> Thank you, hello, and thank you very much for inviting me. It's definitely exciting to be here. Node is this dynamic community that grows in one year, like others can. So it's always exciting to be part one of these events. And present about the work we are doing for Node. >> So you're on a panel later on Taking Benchmarking to the Next Level. So what is that all about? >> That is part of the work we are doing for Node. And I want to mention here the word stewardship. Intel is a long time contributor in the open source communities. And has assumed a performance leadership in many of these communities. We are doing the same for Node. We are driving, we are trying to be a steward for the performance in OJS. And what this means, is we are watching to make sure that every check in that happens, doesn't impact performance. We are also optimizing Nodes, so it give the best of the hardware, Node runs best on the newest hardware that we have. And also, we are developing, right now new measures, new benchmarks which better reflect the reality of the data center use cases. The way your Node is getting used in the Cloud. The way Node is getting used in the data center. There are very few ways to measure that today. And with this fast development of the ecosystem, my team has also taken this role of working with the industry partners and coming up with realistic measures for the performance. >> Right, so these new benchmarks that you're defining around the capabilities of Node. Or are you using old benchmarks? Or how are you kind of addressing that challenge? >> We started by running what was available. And most of the benchmarks were quite, let's say, isolated. They were focused on single Node, one operation, not realistic in terms of what the measurements were being done for the data center. Especially, in the data center everything is evolving. So nothing is just running with one single computer. Everything is impacted by network latencies. We have a significant number of servers out there. We have multiple software components interacting. So it's way more complex. And then you have containers coming into the picture. And everything makes it harder and harder to evaluate from the performance perspective. And I think Node is doing a pretty good job from the performance perspective. But who's watching that it stays the same? I think performance is one of those things that you value when you don't have it, right? Otherwise you just take it as granted, like it's there. So, my team at Intel is focused on top tier scripting languages. We are part of this larger software organization called Software and Services Group. And we are, right now, optimizing and writing the performance for Python, No-gs, PHP HHVM, and for some of the top tier languages used in the data centers. So Node is actually our interesting story in terms of evolution. Because we've seen, also, an extraordinary growth. We've seen, it's probably the one who's doubled for the past three years. The community has doubled. Everything has doubled for Node, right? Even, the number of commits, it depends on which statuses you look-- >> They're all up and to the right, very steep. >> Yeah, so then it's a very fast progress which we need to keep pace with. And one thing that is important for us is to make sure that we expose the best of our hardware to the software. With Node that is taking an interesting approach. Because Node is one of, what we called CPU front end bounce. It's having a large footprint. It's one of the largest footprint applications that we've seen. And for this we want to make sure that the newest CPUs we bring to market are able to handle it. >> I was just going to say, they have Trevor Livingston on it from HomeAway. Kicked off things today. We're talking about the growth. He said a year ago, they had one Node JS project. And this is a big site that competes with, like, Air B&B. That's now owned by Expedia. Now they say, he said, they had, "15 projects in production. "22 almost in production, and 75 other internal projects." In one year, from one. So that shows pretty amazing growth and the power of the application. And from Intel's point of view, you guys are all in on cloud. You're all in on data centers. You've all seen all the adds. So you guys are really, aggressively taking on the optimization, for the unique challenges and special environment that is Cloud. Which is computing everywhere, computing nowhere. But at the end of the day, it's got to sit on somebody's servers. And there's got to be a CPU in the background. So you look at all these different languages. Why do you think Node has gone so crazy? >> I think there are several reasons. And my background is a C++ developer, coming and security. So coming into the Node space, one thing amazed me. Like, only 2% of the code is yours, when you write an application. So that is like-- >> Jeff: 2%? >> So where is the other 98% coming from? Or it's already pre developed. It's an ecosystem, you just pull in those libraries. So that's what brings, in addition to the security risks you have. It brings a fantastic time to market. So it enables you as the developer to launch an application in a matter of days, instead of months or a year. So time to market is an unbeatable proposition. And I think that's what drives this space. When you need to launch new applications faster and faster, and upgrade. For us, that's also an interesting challenge. Because we have, our super road maps are not days, right? Are years? So what we want to make sure is that we feed back into the CPU road map the developments we are seeing into this space. I have on my team, I have several principal engineers who are working with the CPU architects to make sure that we are continuously providing this information back. One thing I wanted to mention is, as you probably know, since you've been talking to other Intel people, we've been launching recently, the latest generation server, Skylake. And on this latest generation Nodes. So all the Node workloads we've been optimizing and measuring. So one point five x performance improvement, from the prior generation. So this is a fantastic boost. And this doesn't happen only from hardware. It happens from a combination of hardware and software. And we are continuing to work now with the CPU architects to make sure that the future generation also keeps space with the developments. >> It's interesting, kind of the three horsemen of computing, if you will, right? There's compute, there's store, and there's IO. And now we're working, and it's interesting that Ryan Dahl, it's funny, they brought up Ryan Dahl. We interviewed him back at the Node JS, I think back in 2011? Still one of our most popular segments on theCUBE. We do thousands of interviews a year. He's still one of the most popular. But to really rethink the IO problem, in this asynchronous form, seems to be just another real breakthrough that opens up all types of capacity in compute and store. When you don't have to sit and wait. So that must be another thing that you guys have addressed from coming from the hardware and the software perspective? >> You are right on spot, because I think Node, comparing to other scripting languages brings more into the picture, the whole platform. So it's not only a CPU. It's also a networking. It's also related to storage. Also, it makes the entire platform to shine if it's optimized to the right capability. And we've been investing a lot into this. We have all our work is made available is open source. All our contributions are up-streamed back into the mainstream. We also started an effort to work with the industry in developing these new workloads. So last year at Node Interactive, we launched one new workload, benchmark, for Node. Which we called Node DC. With his first use case, which is an employee information system, simulating what a large data center distributed application will be doing. This year, now at Node Summit, we will be presenting the updated version of that, one point zero, this time. It was version zero point nine, last time. Where we added support for containers. We included several capabilities to be able to run, in a configural manner, in as many configurations as needed. And we are also contributing this back. We submitted it to the Node Foundation. So it becomes an official benchmark for the Node Foundation. Which means, every night, after the build system runs, this will be run as part of the regressions. To make sure that the performance doesn't degrade. So that's part of our work. And that's also continuing an effort we started with what we call the languages performance portal. If you go to languagesperformance.intel.com we have an entire lab behind that portal, in which every night we build this top tier scripting languages. Including Python, including Node, including PHP, and we run performance regressions on the latest Intel architecture. So we are contributing the results back into the open source community, to make sure that the community is aware if any regression happens. And we have a team of engineers who jumps on those regression center root causes and analyzes it. So to figure it out. >> So Monica, but we're almost out of time. But before I let you go, we talked before we got started, I love Kim Stevenson, I've interviewed her a bunch of times. And one of the conversations that we had was about Moore's Law. And that Moore's Law's really an attitude. And it's kind of a way to do things more than hitting the physical limitations on chips, which I think is a silly conversation. You're in a constantly, the role of constantly optimizing. And making things better, faster, cheaper. As you sit back and look at, kind of, what you've done to date, and looking forward, do you see any slowdown in this ability to continue to tweak, optimize, tweak, optimize? And just get more and more performance out of some of these new technologies? >> I wouldn't see slow down. At least from where I sit on the software side. I'm seeing only acceleration. So, the hardware brings a 30%, 40% improvement. We add, on top of that, the software optimizations. Which bring 10%, 20% improvements as well. So that continuously is going on. And I am not seeing it improving. I'm seeing it becoming more, there is a need for customization. So that's where when we design the workloads, we need to make them customizable. Because there are different use cases across the data center customers. So they are used differently. And we want to make sure that we reflect the reality. That's how they're in the world. And that's how our customers, our partners can also leverage them, to measure something that's meaningful for them. So in terms of speed, now, we want to make sure that we fully utilize our CPU. And we grow to more and more cores and increase frequency. We also grow to more capabilities. And our focus is also to make the entire platform to shine. And when we talk about platform we talk about networking. We talk about non volatile memory. We talk about storage as well as CPU. >> So Gordon's safe. You're safe, Gordon Moore. Your law's still solid. Monica, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day and good luck on your panel later this afternoon. >> Thank you very much for having me here. It was pleasure. >> Absolutely, all right, Jeff Frick checking in from Node Summit 2017 in San Francisco. We'll be right back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Node Summit 2017 in downtown San Francisco at the Mission Bay Convention Center. About 800 hardcore developers talkin' about Node and really the crazy growth and acceleration in this community as well as the applications. We're excited to have our next quest. He's Nick O'Leary, Developer Advocate from IBM for Watson IoT, and you're workin' on somethin' kind of cool called Node-REDS. First off, welcome. >> Thank you, thank you very much for havin' me. >> Absolutely, so what is Node-RED? >> So, Node-RED is an open source project we started working on about four years ago now in the Emerging Technologies group in the UK parts of IBM, and it's a Node.js application that gives you a visual programming tool for Internet of Things-type applications. So when you run it, you point your web browser at it, and it gives you this visual workspace to start dragging in nodes into your canvas that represent some sort of functionality, like connect to Twitter and get some tweets or save something to a database or read some sensor data, whatever it might be, and you start drawing wires between those nodes to express how you want your application to flow, how you want data to flow through your application. So it's quite a lightweight tool and really accessible to a wide range of developers whether sort of seasoned, experienced Node developers or your kids just learning how to program because it hides complexity. And, yeah, it's Node.js-based, so it runs down on a Raspberry Pi, it runs up in the cloud like IBM Bluemix, wherever you want to run it. So really flexible developer platform. >> Pretty interesting 'cause we just had Monica on from Intel, and she was talking about one of the interesting things in this development world of Node.js is so much of the code was written by somebody else. I think she said in a lot of projects the actual original code may be 2% because you're using all these other stuff, and libraries have already been created. And it sounds like you're really kind of leveraging that infrastructure to be able to do something like this. >> Absolutely, so, one of the key things we enabled very early on was to, 'cause we recognized the power of our tool, is those nodes in our palette that you drag on. So we built the system so that people could write their own nodes and extend the palette, and we used the same node packaging as the standard MPM ecosystem. And as of a couple weeks ago, we have over a thousand third party nodes people have written, so there's probably already a module for most hardware devices, online APIs, databases, whatever you want. People are creating and extending the platform in all sorts of ways just building on top of that incredible ecosystem that Node.js has. >> And then how does that tie back to Watson? You said you're involved in Watson. So Watson people don't think of necessarily a simple, simple interface but not necessarily a simple application. So what's the tie between Watson and Node.js and Node-RED? >> So, Node-RED is a development tool. I say it all hinges on those nodes and what they connect to, so we have got nodes for the Watson IoT platform, so that's great for getting, if you're running node-RED on a Raspberry Pi, connected up to our IoT platform, connect to applications in the Bluemix space. But we also have nodes for the Watson cognitive services, like the machine learning things, visual recognition, text to speech, all of those services we have nodes for. So, again, it allows people to start playing with the rich capabilities of the Watson platform without having to dive straight into understanding lines of code and you can start being productive and create real meaningful solutions without having to understand whether it's Node.js or Java, whatever language you would normally write to access low-level APIs. >> And can the visual tool connect to things that are not necessarily Node specific? >> So, anything that provides some sort of API. If it's got a programmatic API, then it's easier to do with Node 'cause we are in a Node ecosystem. But we've got established patterns for talking to other languages but also things often provides like a rest API, HTTP, MQTT, many other protocols, and we have all of that support built straight into the platform. >> Right, and so what was the motivation to build this, just to have an easier development interface? >> Yeah, it was twofold really. One was in the Emerging Technologies where I was, we do proof of concepts for clients we have to turn around really quickly, so whereas we're more than capable of writing individual lines of code, having that tool that lets us experiment much quicker and solve real client problems much quicker was a great value to us. But then we also saw the advantage for the developers who don't understand individual lines of code for educational purposes, whatever it might be. Those great motivators there in the various communities we're involved with, in IoT home hobbyists, all that sort of space as well, it's found a real incredible user community across the board. >> And when it started, was it designed to be an open source project or that kind of realization, if you will, kind of came along the way? >> I think on day one it wasn't the first thing to mind. You know, we were just experimenting with technology, which is kind of how we operated. But we very quickly got to the point where we realized we didn't have the time and resource to write all the nodes that could be written, and there was a much broader audience than just us doing our day job that this tool could tap into. So, maybe not on day one but maybe on a month in we thought this has to be open source. So, it was about six months after we started it we moved to an open source project, and that was September 2013. And then in October last year, IBM contributed the project to be a founding project of the JavaScript Foundation. Whereas it's a project that has come from IBM, it's now a project that is independently governed. It's not owned by IBM, it's part of the foundation. So, look at the wide range of other companies getting involved, making use of it, contributing back, and really good to see that ecosystem build. >> Oh, that's great, so I'm just curious, you said you deal with a lot of customer prototyping. Obviously you're involved in Watson, which is kind of the pointy end of the spear right now with IBM, with the cognitive and the IoT. As you kind of look at the landscape and stuff you're workin' on over the next, I would never say multiple years 'cause that's way too long, six months, nine months, what are some of your priorities, what are some of the things you're seeing, kind of that customers are doing today that they couldn't do before that gets you excited to get up out of bed and go to work every day? >> From my perspective, with our focus on Node-RED, which is kind of where my focus is right now, it's really that developer experience. We've gone so far with our really intuitive to use tooling, but we recognize there's more to do. So, how can we enable better collaboration, better basic workflows within our particular tooling, because there are people using Node-RED, in particular happily in production today, but it's funny 'cause we don't have a 1.0 version number because, for us, that wasn't interesting to us because we are delivering meaningful function. But in the project, we have just published our road map to a one point zero to really give that firm statement to people who are unsure about it as a technology that this is good for production. And we've got a wealth of use cases of companies who are using it today, so, that's very much our focus, my focus within Node-RED, and all of it does then tie back to yes, it's a JS foundation project, but then with my developer advocate hat on, making sure that draw from Node-RED into the Watson platform is as seamless and intuitive as possible because that helps everyone. >> Right, right, okay, so before I let you go, two things: One begs the question what version are you on, and where can people go to find more information so they can see when that 1.0 and obviously contribute? >> So as a Node project, we've stuck to Symantec versioning, so we are currently version naught dot 17. So we've done 17 major releases over the last about three and a bit years, and that's where we're moving forward. We've got this road map to get to 1.0 first quarter of next year. And if you want to find out more, nodered.org is where we're based, or you can find us through links by the JS Foundation as well. >> Alright, well, Nick, thanks for takin' a little bit of your time and safe travels home at the end of the show. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright, he's Nick O'Leary from IBM. I'm Jeff Frick, you're watchin' theCUBE. Thanks for watchin', see ya next time. (bubbly electronic music)