(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

>>Hey, Sue, my great to see you. Welcome to the Data Cloud Summit. Super excited to have you welcome. >>Hey, Chris. Very nice to be there. Thank you for having me >>tell us a little bit about alien spending lakhs. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your role. Italy and Benelux >>aliens, Benelux zits. Basically the aliens business in the region. Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. We serve the needs of the customer here by securing the future. We actually do both PNC asses. We call it properly and casualities in life investment management and health. We do retail, uh, small and medium enterprises. I am a regional chief Data and Biggs, officer for aliens. Benelux. I report directly to the regional CEO my job here in alliance to basically drive the data and analytics agenda for aliens. Vanilla, >>cinnamon. I understand you're getting your PhD in data science. It would be great for the audience to learn a little bit more about what's driving you to do that. And kind of what? What's most interesting to you about data science? A I m l >>the reason why I started to do this because there's so much relevance. Push that which is basically driving the agenda. We need to really look at the theoretical part off it as well. To kind of concrete eyes, Andi toe bring in a certain develop dependency, consistency, timelessness, etcetera. And obviously that which we're doing is very innovative. Here, Italians, monologues driven again by relevance and which is very good for the business. But the timelessness needs to also be the sustainability the scalability needs also has to be given to this particular relevance driven topic so that we don't just create superficial impact. But we create a long lasting and everlasting impact in our competitive intelligence intelligence that building against monologues. >>That's awesome. I mean, thanks for sharing that. So So I think. Cinnamon. When when you and I met back in March 1 of the big things that you were you were considering is, you know, uh, signing up with snowflake and becoming a customer. But part of that journey was convincing Ali on spent lakhs to move to the cloud in your journey. So kind of it would be great for you to explain to the audience. You know what that journey has been like. Was it hard to convince your organization moved to the cloud, What hurdles might you have seen in your journey to the cloud? >>It was not very different to any kind of a change on the kind of effort that you need to put in a change for a normal status go set up that which exists today. So, of course, in any kind of a change, your status could change or challenge that which you bring in. There is a considerable, uh, effort that you need to put in. And it's also your responsibility to basically do that because if you don't have that energy or if you don't have that commitment and you are not able to sustain the energy of the commitment that you show in the new agenda that you bring in, then probably you're not gonna be there to see the change through. Of course, it waas difficult, obviously, because, uh, there is already existing status. Go. And there we have a lot of benefits by moving to cloud, and obviously the benefits seems very interesting. But there is skepticism, and we s alliance is from a group perspective, and Benelux perspective is full of very, very clear on a point that we cannot take advantage off the data that which we have. We want to ensure that privacy is by design. Security is by design. And we give utmost care to our customer data. Um, mhm. And all of this basically brings in tow the concept off. Okay, what is it about moving to the cloud and where are we getting exposed? Where should we basically put together? A security by design privacy with some kind of concepts before we do it and etc. Are you ready? Can be ensured that we still keep the customers data A to a place where we basically can't bust. Well, those are the things that which had to be explained. A certain level of sensitization had to be created. A certain level of awareness. Uh, then the consideration part. Yeah, all of this basically takes its own cycle. >>Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. So we're super excited to call Ali on spending lakhs of customer. Now, what are you excited about with snowflake? And I know that you're you're looking at snowflake. Is this kind of data cloud and data cloud transformation project. Tell us a little bit more about, you know, What? What excites you about Snowflake? How you think you might use stuff like, um, in this kind of transformation of Ali on spending lakhs? >>I know that snowflake is brought to us as a product by you guys, but we look at snowflake is a kind off message. We are breaking down the silos. Literally. Onda. We look at snowflake as a kind often agent to do this. Uh, this is something that which is very important to understand that whatever you do with the organizational level, you still end up with a situation where you kind of reinforce the silos. But, snowflake, we have an opportunity here to even challenge that on break the data silos. Once the data silos is broke, you basically improve the find ability of data. You basically improve the understand ability of the data accessibility of the data interpret ability on everyone sees pretty much the same truth. And that's how the silos disappear. We're very, very excited about the journey that which, which we have in front of us because we're pretty new in it. In the sense that we are going toe haven't very exciting journey as we progress, we are also looking forward to see how Snowflakes road map is going to take us to the point off arrival, as I would call it in our own data revenge in >>today we live in this kind of multi cloud, multi cloud application world. What are some of the concerns you have as you transition from, you know, having stuff in a data center to using multiple clouds to using multiple tools? You know, what's what's some of the challenges you for? See having? What are the things that you're looking for from Snowflake to help you? Um, in that journey, >>there is always a reason why we basically make a change. And the reason is always mostly towards more efficiency, effectiveness and so on and so forth, right? I mean, basically, we have Catholics challenges on this. Catholic challenges can also be addressed with this move to the cloud, except but what We should be careful and should avoid us that the cost that which we have in terms of Camp X is just does not get re attributed into another cost called articulation, cost or arbitration cost. So having a multi cloud is definitely a challenge until you have a kind off orchestrator because we are doing a business here and we don't want to care about pretty much the orchestration. The are part off it on. This needs to be taken taken into account because there is this application cloud and there is this infrastructure cloud. You can have as many clothes as you want, whatever function that which is is supporting you. But that has to be encapsulate, er abstracted away from us so that we're able to focus on the business that we're here to do. And these are certain constraints that I really had as I was thinking about multi cloud or hybrid cloud and I was even focusing on how am I going toe orchestrate all of these different things Eso that you know, you kind of feel abstracted from those things. So well, those are the constraints that I think we still have toe conquer as we progress. I think we are evolving very fastly in that area. And you are the experts in that area, and you know exactly what you're doing there. But for me, what is very important is that uh, yeah, it gets abstracted away from us, and we just get the scalability that we need the elasticity that which we need the security by design the privacy by design on. Then I think this is perfect for us. >>Awesome. So? So I think a lot of customers that are listening to this are about to jump on the same journey that you're you're embarking on. What, is there a specific use case that you decided to kind of go? You know, you know, all in on Snowflake. What was the what was the kind of the initial driver for you to say? Hey, then the business driver on you saying, Hey, I'm gonna use this use case to drive transformation within within Ali and spend lakhs, >>I think virtualization, uh, it's the keep point that comes up the top of my head the moment you speak about what even did drive me to think about snowflake as an option, right? Why virtualization? Because obviously I don't want to move huge amount of data from left, right and center, because you know that when you start optimizing such a kind of an architectural, you end up creating pockets silos, which is totally against what we want to do. We want to break silos. But in the end, just because off the infrastructure needs in the computational needs, etcetera on the response rates and stuff like that, you start to create silos, bring with virtualization and especially with the performance that with Snowflake and provide us in that area. Now it seems like a possibility that we will be able to do that. I mean, it was not something that we just thought about, let's say, a few years back, but now it's definitely possible virtualization. It's one of the key points, but when you talk in the terms of use cases, we Italians monologues do not look at use cases. Actually, we look at business initiatives, so the reason why we don't look at it as use cases is because use cases used, kind off a start and stop. But we were not in the game. Off use cases were in the game off delivering future, that which our customer really wants to be secured. That's what the business we are in and that there are no use cases. There are initiatives there that which matches to the agenda for our customer. So when you start thinking about like that one of the most important things that snowflake offices is an opportunity is to obviously create on environment, so to say, on elastic scalable, uh, situation with the computer that which we need that which basically matches one on one with the agenda for our customer. So what I mean is the data warehousing on the cloud through data warehousing on the cloud is what waas on off our driving thought processes for We did not want to go and say that we will just do, uh, do Data Lake. We will just do data hub way don't belong toe religion. So to say, we basically are very opportunistic in this approach where we say we will have a data lake. We will have a data warehouse. We will have a data hub on. We will integrate it, you know, very a semantic way that which will match to the agenda of the customer and treat the customer as a sort of centric point. >>That's great. I appreciate that. So So, um, Suderman, thank you so much for for, you know, joining us today. Um, And again, thank you for your partnership. We snowflake is super excited. I'm I'm super excited Thio participate in this journey with you. Is there anything that you kind of like to let the audience know before we wrap up? >>Very happy about the way we started Toe talk. Converse. I think the proof of value as we did was a very good engagement with you guys. I mean, you guys were really there. I really appreciate the way that you took the proof of what I've worked with many other windows in terms of proof of value. But I think you had a marked difference in the way you you brought Snowflake. Tow us. Thank you so much and keep doing the good work. >>Thanks so much cinnamon for the partnership and were super pumped on, you know, making you very successful in your project. So thank you so much. >>Thank you.

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego California it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live, US, 2019 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back we're here at the San Diego convention center for Cisco Live 2019 and you're watching theCUBE the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage helping extract the signal from the noise. I'm Stu Miniman we've had three days wall to wall coverage my co-host Dave Vellante and Lisa Martin are all in the house and I'm really excited to actually sit down one on one with one of the users at this user conference the 30th anniversary conference actually for Cisco with their users and partners over 28,000 so speaking for all of them right? We have Sebastien Morissette who's an IT architect specialist at Intact Financial Corporation come to us from beautiful Montreal Canada. >> Exactly. >> All right thank you so much for joining us so Sebastien first of all how many Cisco Lives have you been too? >> Honestly this is my first. >> Oh absolutely exciting for that, my first one I came too was actually 10 years ago I joked at the 20th anniversary they went back 20 years to have some 80's bands they had The Bangles and Devo on and now on the 30 year they moved 10 years forwards they have two great bands from the 90's Wheezer and Foo Fighters so your first time at Cisco Live give us your general impressions of the show. >> Well actually it's been very great I've had a lot of appearances I had to do as well so I got some sessions in I did some work as well so it's amazing to see how these events unfold right? Like the sheer size of this thing and how many people are involved, how many booths how many technical sessions you can have so, I was very pleased I'm here with a lot of people from my team as well from Intact so you know we get the chance to do stuff outside of the work area as well so it's interesting right? It's giving us this opportunity to really deep dive into what we love which is technology but at the same time spend some time together outside of work. >> That's awesome, we've had gorgeous weather here in San Diego hope you definitely get to see the sights before we geek out on some of the technology just give our audience a little bit about Intact and the insurance business but give us a little bit about the history of the company and core focus. >> Okay well Intact is a company that was, they grew as acquisitions with acquisitions we've typically, we were ING Canada back in, before 2010 and afterwards we were publicly traded now so we're Intact Financial Corp. Typically we're the number one PNC insurer in Canada and we've been working with different partners to build our data center 2.0 initiative which is kind of a new offering of you know modern IT services within Intact. >> Okay great and just to, your purview in the company and just the comment about the company is you know when you talk about those transformations you know MNA is something we see a lot in your industry and put some extra special challenges in place when you're doing that but tell us a little bit about what's under your role and scope as to kind of locations, people however you measure you know what, boxes or ports or whatever. >> Okay well you know typically my role is lead architect within the infrastructure and security group for North America Intact through acquisition we actually bought OneBeacon Insurance last year, so typically we now have a US presence as well in specialty insurance, specialty lines so typically whenever we're looking at different technologies we look at the skills sets that we have, we look to see what can be the better half for us to you know accelerate and be more agile in how we actually consume technology so in some cases whatever we're looking at building up these new features like I was talking for data center 2.0 it happens that some of the technologies and the skill sets we have were with Cisco which is why we are here today with the team. >> All right so Sebastien you talk about data center 2.0 and transformation there at the organizational level is it branded data center transformation does the word digital transformation come up in your discussions? >> Yeah data center 2.0 is actually kind of the project name that we've been giving this initiative for the past two years but it really is at the essence a digital transformation, what we're doing is we're typically taking training wheels to the Cloud so we're building an on-prem private Cloud offering with multi-sites so we have three sites in the scope right now and the goal is really to actually allow our business to expand into the Cloud while being in a secure on-prem environment when we get to that maturity level where we feel we're ready to actually really go into public Cloud our software engineering teams our development teams will have experienced it on-prem safely and will have a confidence level to bringing them there so it has been transformational also because we decided to push DevOps culture as far as we can from an infrastructure team so we were trying to get all the adoption from our software engineering folks to actually structure themselves, bring on DevOps team and that we can share with them so they can actually be more agile and get a lot more done without having to depend on us and spend a lot of time waiting for VM's or stuff so trying to accelerate that. >> Awesome I love that 'cause sometimes you hear okay we're going to 2.0 it's basically a fancy refresh but we're going to keep things mostly the same when I hear DevOps I know that culture and organization is something that is a key piece of that, I have to ask you without getting down into the pedantics of this, when you say a private Cloud that's in your data center we understand some of the covenants and reasons what you have but how do you determine whether, what was your guiding line as to how is this a Cloud versus just some new virtualized environment? >> I've had the chance to have great executive sponsorship from my senior vice president typically we were looking at how can we access the Cloud? The way I approached it was overhauling what we do was not the route to go what I asked him to do is say you know trust me I'll start with a clean slate and we will build a brand new landing area for Cloud native applications and new methodologies for modern IT services so typically in the end we didn't overhaul anything that we had we built a brand new sandbox for Intact to be able to work with so we went from disaster recovery to business continuity in that move we've built a three site approach because when I was looking at kind of my capex expenditure if I was building two sites to be fully resilient and be business continuity I would be spending 200% of my capital to actually build up that capacity when you go to three sites it seems awkward but you just need 50% on each site of your capacity to ensure 100% of coverage of your requirements, so in the end you're actually spending 150% of your capacity, or your capex to buy the compute, so there's an incentive there as well. So to answer your question more precisely it's very easy for us to see how it's a Cloud because we're not operating it the same way we're operating our other environment and since we started from scratch every process has been revised we haven't kept everything we had before so we had the chance to build something brand new for that specific offering that our software engineering groups were asking us to do. >> All right that's exciting stuff there when you look at these multi-site deployments I think back in my career and I worked on some of these environments, management, security and networking are absolutely critical, I hear oh okay I've got 50% in each oh my God what if a site gets isolated and I can't talk to those other two so luckily I'm guessing Cisco has something to do with your rollout, we're obviously here at Cisco Live so give us a little bit inside the architecture and especially you know what kind of Cisco pieces are you using? >> All right well you know typically the way that our story started was kind of weird the first thing we've done is we've actually went to Cisco to redesign a DMZ and we got out from Cisco Montreal team with an idea to not just change and buy ACI switches for the DMZ but actually rebuild our whole design to you know integrate ACI into the fabric and then when you start talking about firewalls or switches they tell you well with ACI you have contracts so it really started that way so we built an ACI fabric with the Cisco HyperFlex hyper-converged infrastructure as our compute layer so typically think of it as Intact is building our new version of a software defined data center. So with building that we have all the components so we have the virtualization like you spoke of earlier which is running like you know VMware on site, on top of the HyperFlex and then we have the ACI since we had three sites we topped it off with the multi-site orchestrator to be able to manage consistent policies around all of our three sites and in the end we needed to have an orchestrator to be able to deploy the content onto that and when we were looking at it early on it was Clicker when Cisco purchased Clicker we were looking at finding a Cloud management platform, so we ended up using CloudCenter which is now CloudCenter Suite and in the way we were using it, which was a little atypical from the typical way clients are using CloudCenter today we're taking it into the data center and out to the Cloud whereas when I was talking with Kip Compton earlier this week he was saying you know what sometimes our clients buy it more for the Cloud first and I was like well we have like the inverse story of exactly how we did the opposite but it works as well, so typically where we stand today I have the three sites we're able to deploy with CloudCenter we've got multi-site on top of that and the idea it really is that, I spoke about training wheels earlier well we're taking them off right? In the next couple of weeks we're starting to look into negotiations with public Cloud providers trying to move towards the public Cloud and you know there's exciting news that came out from Cisco this week while I was here about the fact that now you know they're forecasting a lot more collaboration with Microsoft and AWS and now they have all the three major Cloud providers covered with ACI Anywhere so that means all of our security that you were talking about earlier will now have a consistent policy model applied all, everywhere so to be honest I'm not too concerned about if we did a good choice a couple of years back I think we're in our sweet spot right now. >> Yeah and you're right it's a different story than we've generally heard from Cisco and some customers which is I have all of these public Cloud's and I have my data center and I'm looking for some piece to help tie it together and that the CloudCenter Suite is there so you feel you're confident with the platform that you chose and that's going to give you the flexibility as to whichever public Cloud or public Cloud you choose are you at the point there that do you know which public Cloud you're going to be on or maybe it's a little too early? >> Well to be honest you know we're keeping our options open you know we have different providers that are offered, you know the major public one there's Amazon there's Google Cloud we're not closing any options it's really a question of us to do the same secure approach that we've done right now with this offering to really go one at a time make sure that we're able to nail it down, make it secure that we get all the information back so I'm not at a possibility right now to disclose which ones we're dealing with because we're still negotiating but in the end we're not limiting ourselves we just want to be able to scale. >> Right you're confident that the Cisco solution that you choose will give you the flexibility no matter which one you use or if you use multiples or need to make switches along the way? >> Yeah. >> Question I have for you on that is when you look at multi-Cloud one of the things that are challenging for companies is how do I make sure I've got the skillsets because workloads might be portable, networks might be connected but understanding how I manage each of those environments so do you feel CloudCenter Suite's going to help you through that? You know what do you see as you look out over your roadmap as to what that's going to mean for you know your DevOps team and the people managing this environment as it spreads out to the public Cloud? >> Actually I'm feeling really confident because you know especially after seeing a couple of sessions of what Roland Acra and Kip have announced for the data center and for the Cloud piece we're seeing more and more normalization being done by Cisco to actually allow us to be confident in the fact that on prem we're doing ACI and that our policies are going to be mapped to the constructs of the different Cloud providers. So for me what it means is I don't necessarily need to become specialized in how we're going to be operating inside of a Cloud we need to make sure that we get the proper policies built into the different products you know Cisco's branding it the Anywhere right? They have the HX Anywhere the ACI Anywhere and typically that's what we like about it is I can have one consistent set of skillsets and allow the people to use it one thing I found interesting about this week and it's not necessarily to do like more promotion for Cisco is like the Cloud First ACI right? So being able to be starting with ACI in the Cloud I found that was kind of interesting because when you know how the multi-site orchestrator works means apps you build out in the Cloud you're going to be able to to pull back in through the MSO and push it back on prem or anywhere in other Clouds afterwards so I found that was very intuitive of them to go to that route of allowing us to you know transparently migrate apps between sites. >> All right so Sebastien you're using a lot of the latest and greatest from Cisco you talk about the HX the ACI the CloudCenter Suite what advice do you give to your peers out there and they say you know I've used Cisco products for a long time Cisco makes great products but you know simplicity and management across the product lines was something that you know needed some work what does the Cisco of today look like you know what's working well? What still would you like to see them progress on? >> Well you know for us one of the things that was nice like I mentioned earlier is we're typically going greenfield so I didn't have a lot of the issues that other companies might be facing if they're trying to take their brownfield and actually make it into what we've built so my first advice would be if you're able to get the executive sponsorship to build a greenfield environment there's nothing in Cloud native applications that is you know symmetric with the traditional environment of a data center, it's completely different ways of working we have one week sprints we patch everything as it comes out if an application goes into the environment it needs to be functional with that patching cycle of almost every time we're at n or n-1 so, my thing is think about applications as being the center of what you actually need and not the infrastructure, let the infrastructure be what it is because you're going to be anywhere right? So that's one of the things I would say, from what you said about Cisco and the integration you were right, we have lived a couple of items like that in the last two years and a half, however I've noticed that these new software components like CloudShare and everything not necessarily the hardware part Cisco nails hardware like it works they've been doing it for years the thing is with these software teams they're very customer driven we have access to the engineers now I mean we've had meetings with the Canadian execs Roland Acra's team we were able to get access to the developers and the teams here in the US so, every company has challenges I would be lying if I told you that even at Intact we don't have silos and we don't have issues sometimes with different teams managing together but I feel as if at least for the technologies that we're using they've done good work for us to actually help us get through that. >> Well it's interesting Sebastian you bring that up because I look at you say okay, you've got a greenfield environment awesome, we can go do some new tech, well let's throw in there the DevOps and let's change all the other pieces you're like completely overhauling your environment how much of that were there some new team members that came in as part of that or you know I look people, process and technology sounded like you were taking it all on at once, did that work well? Would you have if you looked back would you have changed some of the ordering and maybe you know gotten one piece before the other or did it help to kind of you know start brand new start fresh and get everything going? >> Well I wouldn't redo the part of starting fresh however, it helped us get really good pace and work you know it's our first agile project as an infrastructure group so all of that was great learning experience the only thing I would say is you need to make sure your organization is ready for that level of change because it's one thing to have one VP sponsorship to actually build out this type of approach but where we struggled a little bit was afterwards getting the rest of our IT organization to kind of want to get onboard. because we are building something new, the traditional environment is not disappearing and we're telling our software engineering groups here's a new area where you can play in but you know typically I'd say that it's been well received we have not had the need to build new skillsets because we're doing infrastructure as code so typically a lot of the stuff we're building we're making sure it's automated so that way it's very nice and lean and when we build a new site we have a lot of automation already built in so we can properly just deploy so lessons learned like you've asked me I'd say that typically I'd probably do much of what I did the same way, but I would work a little bit more on the people area just to make sure that the message is clearly understood that what we're building is for the future of Intact and make sure that we spend a little bit more time managing that aspect because for the technology it's fine for the time it took and everything it's fine, it's really people the change is significant to most of them and when you've been doing something for a long time and someone comes up and disrupts it's like if we were disrupting our own company right? So typically I'd say, that would be something that I would say to people manage that properly or you will have a lot more work to do inside of that initiative to actually gain everybody's momentum and get them to be behind you. >> Well Sebastien I really appreciate you walking us through all of your transformation I want to just give you the final word sounds like you've got great access to Cisco really hope you're happy with what you've done final word is to you know your expectations coming into a show like this and you know what your take aways will be from Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego? >> Well outside from the amazing weather you mean or yeah? so you know typically I like the event I've been to other events before, like I said this is my first time at Cisco but what I've seen is that Cisco's really into getting their customers to understand their technology so they're really present so I really liked how you know we were given the opportunity to do hands on labs and actually learn new technologies so typically great experience coming here and great opportunities and thanks so much for having us. >> Well Sebastien Morissette congratulations to your team at Intact and thank you so much for sharing this story. >> Thank you so much. >> All right we've got a little bit more left here of three days wall to wall coverage Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego for Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin I'm Stu Miniman and thanks as always for watching theCUBE. 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>> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the CUBE. We're in Palo Alto, California at the Chertoff's event, "Security in the Boardroom." And again, this is an event about elevating the security conversation beyond speeds and feeds and in-points and IOT and ever-increasing attack surfaces, and really, how do we elevate it into the boardroom discussion, because that's where it needs to be before they wake up on Monday morning and see their company's name in the newspaper, which is when you don't want to have your first conversation. So we're excited to have our next guest. He's Joe Gottlieb, the Senior Vice President of Corporate Development for Sailpoint. Joe, welcome. >> Thank you, good to be here, Jeff. >> Absolutely, so for people who aren't familiar with Sailpoint, why don't you give us a quick overview. >> Sure, so Sailpoint helps large enterprises control who has access to what. So at the end of the day, all the access that you need to do your job should fall into what your role is in the company, and what projects you're working on, and for many companies, that's not what is proactively being delivered. You're accumulating a set of things based upon who you ask, who you know, and a lot of inadvertent accumulation of things that you might need or you might not need. So we help companies put that under lock and key and under control, make sure that there's a process for who should approve your access. How can we empower you quickly when you start your job? How can we transfer you to a new role if you move jobs? And most importantly, oftentimes, how do we take away things very systematically when you leave the company? So that's what we do in a nutshell. >> So I would imagine, before you get there, it's a hodgepodge of spreadsheets and Google Docs and all types of assorted random things. >> You bet, for the average large company, this is a manual effort, and it is just not systematic, which it has to be. What you have when you don't have a systematic effort here that's filtered by business approvals and work flow processes is a cumulated surface area that need not be available to the attacker. We want to narrow that surface area by narrowing your access to only that's what's needed and keep it pruned as you evolve with your role in the company. >> It seems like there's so much low-hanging fruit, about just doing what you should be doing, just doing it and so many people don't apply patches, they don't systematically take people out of things when they leave the company. All these things that seem relatively simple on the surface from the outside, but in fact, in a large organization, are not simple by any stretch of the imagination. >> It's so true. In security in particular, it's a really hard job but consistency and patience and methodic progress is really, really key. I liken it to the quality movement that we experienced in manufacturing over two decades ago. We started measuring, we started being consistent, we started thinking about what is the root cause of this or that and how can we continually make ourselves a bit better every time period. And so that's what some of the basics are all about, and governance is a big part of that. >> Okay, so you just got off a panel. And the event here is really focused about the boardroom conversation, so let's just jump into that. You made an interesting conversation from the board about a portfolio approach, which is only natural since you're a corp dev guy, thinking of portfolio strategies. So how should they think about the portfolio? I haven't heard anyone discuss their tools in a portfolio strategy method. >> So, let's zoom out on the context here. Boards are trying to provide governance. They need wisdom to provide governance. If they don't understand security at all, how can they be wise about it? So there's definitely a really, really strong push to get the board being more proactive about demanding the right levels of security and being shown the data that they can have for how security is being applied. I look at security portfolio management as a great way to step out of the Fudd domain, where we have vendors selling us technologies that we don't understand and most of the people talking to us don't even understand, and into a domain where there is less of a bet on prevention, which we know isn't going to happen, and more of a bet on monitoring a response, governance, which is just going back to the source and making sure people have the right access, and education, helping end users understand what that phishing attack would look like, actually going through testing and really accumulating awareness of what to avoid. Because we know that's the easiest way to get started. Every attack starts with a phishing attack that compromises an end-user point in-station, and then moves laterally to the good stuff. That portfolio view allows the board to start understanding how we're not making a bunch of hopeful bets on prevention that is elusive, and we're actually making some balanced bets around the pieces of the puzzle that we know can give us immediate returns and we can measure against the returns. >> Now what about the scale of the bets? We've talked about this with a few of the other guests that came on, 'cause again I liken it to insurance. You'd add some, you could be probably over-insured. There's not infinite resources, so there's always a ying and yang on how much do we invest and then what came up in the kickoff this morning and then how do we measure success? Because obviously success would be no problems, but you probably need a much softer way to measure success. >> Very true. So this came up earlier in the discussion, and that is you've got to get the board thinking about a risk posture, where there are tradeoffs. You can't ask them, you can't use Fudd on the board. You're going to freak 'em out. You have to say, "This is what I have to do "to enable this business to operate at this velocity." And if they don't want that risk, here's the velocity that they ought to be operating within because we are less exposed at that velocity. And so translating it into these sorts of terms that the board understands in the world of business. They're well experienced in advising you on how to operate your business. They've thought about travel risks. They've thought about plant closure risks. And they've thought about employee lawsuit risks. Translate security into risks that they can also understand and then present your measurements and your investment trade-offs in that context. That's what the best practice appears to be. It's still really hard, and so here's the knock: you can have all that great thinking and still struggle because of the degree of difficulty here. You just have to keep at it. >> Now unfortunately, the CISO on the agenda at the board meeting was down toward the end of the day and just before him was the CMO and the Head of Sales and Operations and they're like, "We got to go, we got to go, it's digital transformation. "We got to go, we got to go, competitors are going like crazy. "Speed, speed, speed, digital transformation." That's what you beat us up about last quarter. So as people are trying to really evolve their companies, they're trying to move to a more digital platform, they're innovate faster, they're trying to enable more people in the company to have access to the data, and access to the tools so they can innovate faster. How does that then bang up when he sits down and the CISO stands up? >> So, digital transformation is an opportunity. For me, it's just code for reinventing business around customer engagement, for many companies that have direct relationships to their customers in a broad form, at least it's that for them. That means there's an investment elasticity opportunity. And so building security into that velocity we talked about, or the mode of digital transformation that you're going to deliver is really, really key. It's less about defending security as a horizontal utility that is generic and hard to place within the context of that digital transformation, that customer engagement, that velocity of business, it's that latter scenario. Actually, one of the folks of the panel that I was on, Debbie from PNC Bank, made a great point. She talks about security as part of the brand, part of the brand prompts. We want people to trust our brand. And so more and more, I would argue that the monetization and the maturation of the attack life cycle, and the ability to take customer records and sell them, has forced us to realize that's a distinct business risk. So losing all of our customer data is a huge business risk that business people now understand and you can equip them to reduce that risk with good security measures. While you're doing digital transformation, you have an opportunity to bake it in. So now, you can suddenly say, "Hey look! "We can fit that into the overall architecture." You want it to be a collaborative part of the new design, versus an overlay, which has typically been the approach, when we've automated business on top of IT and then wrapped security around that. >> It's funny, you're the first person that's ever really tied security to trust and trust to brand, because there's always an ongoing conversation about, "Do brands matter? "What is a brand? "How are brands defined "in an increasingly competitive world?" So, is security in that context, table stakes or is it a competitive advantage? >> Well, let me ask you a question. How's Yahoo's brand today? >> Not so good. >> After repeated losses, right, I could name plenty. The circumstance and the experience, and our ability to absorb that experience frankly through a lot of reporting, has helped us to know what we're up against. What are the downsides? That's just education. I think that's the good part of Fudd, when things are reported accurately and we understand that these things have happened, even if we learn a bit later, that's very necessary for us to say, "This is what needs to be done." Just like anything else. When transportation evolved and we reinvented business at the speed of our new transportation in the way we collaborate, that was an impact. We now have to continue to think about business as being more digital and has to be more secure. >> Well, Joe, this has been a great conversation and the other thing you nailed, you're the first person that has ever talked about digital transformation as redefining your business process around customer engagement. That is spectacular. >> Wow. >> Thanks for sharing that, we'll use that. >> Good stuff. >> Alright. Thanks for stopping by. >> You bet. >> He's Joe Gottlieb, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching the CUBE. We'll catch you next time, thanks for watching.