(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)