>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>> Hello and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. We're here in Sundance 2018 at the Intel Tech Lounge for a panel discussion with experts on the topic of The New Creative. We believe a new creative renaissance is coming in application development and also artistry. The role of craft and the role of technology and software coming together at the intersection. You're seeing results in the gaming industry. Virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality. A new wave is coming and it's really inspiring, but also there's a few thought leaders at the front end of this big wave setting the trends and they're here with us in this special panel for The New Creative. Here with us is Brooks Browne, Global Director of VR at Starbreeze Studios, a lot to share there, welcome to the panel. Lisa Watt, VR Marketing Strategist at Intel, Intel powering a lot of these VR games here. And Winslow Porter, co-founder and director of The New Reality Company. Many submissions at Sundance. Not this year, but a ton of experience talk about the role of Sundance and artistry. And then we have Gary Radburn who's a director of commercial VR and AR from media within Dell, Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to this panel. Lisa, I want to start off with you at Intel. Obviously the Tech Lounge here, phenomenal location on Main Street in Sundance. Really drawing a massive crowd. Yesterday it was packed. This is a new generation here and you're seeing a younger demographic. You're seeing savvier consumers. They love tech, but interesting Sundance is turning into kind of an artistry tech show and the game is changing, your thoughts on this new creative. >> Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I've been here for, this is my third year coming back with VR experiences. And it's really just been incredible to see. Sundance has been on the leading edge of exploring new technologies for a long time and I think this is, I feel like you know this feels like the break out year really. I mean, it's been successful the last few years, but something about this year feels a little bit different. And I think maybe it's the people are getting more familiar with the technology. I think the artists are getting more comfortable with how to push the boundaries. And then we certainly are getting a lot out of seeing what they're doing and how we can improve our products in the future. >> We were talking yesterday, Lisa, about the dynamic at Sundance. And you were mentioning that you see a few trends popping out. What is the most important story this year for the folks who couldn't make it, who might be watching this video that you see at Sundance? Obviously it's a great day today, it's snowing, it's a white day, it's beautiful powder, greatest snow on Earth. But there's some trends that are emerging. We had a march this morning, the Women's March. You're seeing interesting signals. What's your view? >> I think there's a lot less desire to put up with subpar experiences. I mean I think everyone is really starting to push the boundaries, I mean, we saw a lot of 360 video which we love for a linear narrative. But they're really breaking out and really exploring what does it mean to have autonomy especially in the virtual reality experiences, a lot more social is coming to the forefront. And then a lot more exploration of haptics and the new ways of extending into more 4D effects, etc. So I think it's very very exciting. We're really excited to see all the new innovations. >> Winslow, I want to ask you, if you can comment, you've been an active participant in the community with submissions here at Sundance. This year you're kind of chilling out, hanging out. You've been on the front lines, what is your take on the vibe? What's the sentiment out there? Because you're seeing the wave coming, we're feeling it. It feels early. I don't know how early it is, and the impact to people doing great creative work. What's that take? >> Well yeah, it's kind of like VR years are like dog years, you know. Like a lot can happen in a month in the VR space. So I had a piece here in 2014 called Clouds. It was an interactive documentary about Creative Code, but that was back when there was only two other VR pieces. It's interesting to see how the landscape has changed. Because CCP Games had a piece there. An early version of E Valkyrie. And unfortunately in the last three months, they had to close their VR wing. So, and then Chris Milk also had a Lincoln piece with Beck. Which was a multi camera 360, actually it was a flash video that they recorded to the DK1. And so that was, seeing that everyone was, saw the potential. The technology was still pretty rudimentary or crude even, we should say. Before any tracking cameras. But every year people learned from previous Sundances and other festivals. And we're seeing that Sundance kind of raises the bar every year. It's nice that it's in January because then there's all these other festivals that sort of follow through with either similar content, newer versions of content that's here, or people have just sort of learned from what is here. >> So I got to ask you. You know, obviously Sundance is known for pushing the boundaries. You see a lot of creative range. You see a lot of different stuff. And also you mentioned the VR. We've seen some failures, you've seen some successes, but that's growth. This market has to have some failures. Failures create opportunities to folks who are reiterating in that. What are some of the things that you can point to that are a positive? Things that have happened whether they're failures and/or successes, that folks can learn from? >> Well, I think that this year there's a lot more social VR. We're connecting people. Even though they're in the same space, they're able to be in this new virtual world together. There's something amazing about being able to interact with people in real life. But as soon as you have sort of a hyper reality where people are able to be experiencing a Sufi ritual together. Things that you wouldn't normally... That they're not possible in the real world. And also, I think that there's issues with lines too. Obviously every year, but the more that we can have larger experiences with multiple people, the more people we can get through. And then more impact we can make on the audience. It's really... We were in claim jumper last year. And we could only get one person in every 10 minutes. And that makes things pretty tricky. >> And what are you doing at Sundance this year? You've obviously got some stuff going on with some of the work you've done. What's your focus? >> So yeah we have a company called New Reality Company where we produce Giant and Tree. It's part of a trilogy where Breathe is going to be the third part. We're going to be completing that by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the best thing about Sundance is the projects, but also the people. Being able to come here, check in, meet new people, see partners that we've been working with in the past. Also new collaborations, everywhere you turn, there's amazing possibilities abound. >> I want to talk about empathy and social. I mentioned social's interesting in these trends. I want to go to Brooks Brown, who's got some really interesting work with Starbreeze and the Hero project. You know, being a pioneer, you've got to take a few arrows in your back, you've got to blow peoples' minds. You're doing some pretty amazing work. You're in the front lines as well. What's the experience that you're seeing? Talk about your project and its impact. >> Well for us, we set out with our partner's ink stories, Navid Khonsari, a wonderful creative, and his entire team to try to create that intensely personal experience kind of moving the opposite direction of these very much social things. The goal, ultimately being to try to put a person inside of an event rather than a game style situation where you have objective A, B, or C. Or a film that's a very, very hyper linear narrative. What is that sort of middle ground that VR itself has as unique medium? So we built out our entire piece. Deep 4D effects, everything is actually physically built out so you have that tactility as you walk around. Things react to you. We have smell, temperature, air movement, the audio provided by our partners at DTS is exceptional. And the goal is ultimately to see if we put you in a situation... I'm doing my best not to talk about what that situation is. It's pretty important to that. But to watch people react. And the core concept is would you be a hero? All over the world, every day people are going through horrific stuff. We're fortunate because we're the kind of people who, in order to experience, say a tragedy in Syria, we're fortunate that we have to go to Park City, Utah and go in virtual reality to experience something that is tragic, real, and deeply emotional. And so our goal is to put people through that and come out of it changed. Traumatized actually. So that way you have a little bit more empathy into the real world into the actual experiences they went through. >> And what's the goal? This is interesting because most of the some stuff you see, the sizzle out there is look at the beautiful vistas and the beaches and the peaks and you can almost be there. Now you're taking a different approach of putting people in situations that probe some emotional responses. >> Yeah. It's a big deal to us. The way Navid like to put it, and I'm going to steal this from him, is you see a great deal of people prototyping on hardware and all of these things, and it's great cause we need that. We need to be able to stand on the shoulders of those giants to be able to do these things. But you see very few people really prototyping what is the concept of story as per VR? We've been doing, at Starbreeze, we've been doing location based for some time now and I've been getting thousands upon thousands of pitches. And whenever you get a pitch, you can pretty much identify, oh you come from a film background, you come from a games background. There's very few people who come down that middle line and go, well this is what VR is supposed to be. This is that interesting thing that makes it very deeply unique. >> What's the confluence and what's the trend in your mind as this changes? Cause you mentioned that gamers have affinity towards VR. We were talking about that before we came on the panel. You know, pump someone in mainstream USA or around the world who does email, does work, may not be there, you're seeing this confluence. How is that culture shifting? How do you see that? Cause you're bringing a whole nother dimension. >> We're trying to go back to a little bit, something about this Sundance being a little bit different. I think in general in VR, you're seeing this sort of shift from a few years ago it was all potentiality. And I think a lot of us, the projects were great, but a lot of us who work in VR were like oh I see what they're trying to do. And people like my dad would be like I don't. I don't see what they're trying to do. But that is shifting. And you're seeing a larger shift into that actuality where we're not quite there yet where we can talk about the experiences every day Americans are going to have. What is the real ready player one that we're actually going to have existing. We're not there yet, but we're much closer every time. And we're starting to see a lot of these things that are pushing towards that. Final question before I go to some of the speeds and feeds questions I want to get with Intel and Dell on is what is the biggest impact that you're seeing with your project and VR in general that will have the most important consequences for societal impact? >> Well, we were fortunate yesterday we had a number of people come through Hero. And a number of them simply actually couldn't handle it. Had to come out. We had to pull people out. The moment we took the headset off, they were, tears were streaming down their face. There's a level of emotional impact VR is extremely able to cut through. It's not that you're playing a character. It's not that you're in a separate world. You are you inside of that space. And that is a dangerous but very promising ability of VR. >> Winslow, could you take a stab at that, I'd like to get your reaction to that because people are trying to figure out the societal impact in a positive way and potentially negative. >> Yeah I mean, so with that, whenever you traumatize somebody else or have the ability to possibly re-traumatize somebody... In Giant, we made sure that we gave them a trigger warning because yeah these things can be intensely intimate or personal for somebody who already has that sort of baggage with them or could be living in a similar experience. In Giant, we witnessed the last moments of a family. As they're convincing their daughter that the approaching bomb blast is a giant that actually wants to play with her. And so we put haptics in the chair so the audience was also surprised. But we let them know that it was going to be taking place in a conflict zone. So if that was something that they didn't want to participate in, that they could opt out. But again, like we didn't know... We had to go and buy tissues like right off the bat because people were crying in the headset. And that's kind of a... It's an interesting problem to have for the sake of what are sort of the rules around that? But also it makes it more difficult to get people through the experience in a timely fashion as well. But yeah, but we're seeing that as things become more real then there's also a chance to possibly impact people. It's the... >> So it's social for you? You see it as a social impact? >> Well, I mean if everyone's experiencing the same thing that can be social, but again if it's a one on one experience, it's sort of like up to the filmmaker to make sure that they have the scruples that they are playing by the rules. Cause there's right now most every piece of content is being released through Oculus, Steam, or Viveport. But there will be... It's heavily regulated right now, but as soon as there's other means of distributing the content, it could take a different sort of face. >> Certainly some exciting things to grab on, great stuff. I want to get to the commercial angle. Then we're going to talk more about the craft and the role of artistry in the creating side of it. Gary, you're the commercial VR expert at Dell. You're commercializing this. You're making the faster machines. We want faster everything. I mean everyone... Anyone who's in VR knows that all the graphics cards. They know the speeds and feeds. They're totally hardware nerds. What's going on? Where's the action? >> Okay, that's such a large question. I mean we've had some great stuff here that I also want to comment on as well. But inside the commercial side, then yeah everybody wants bigger, stronger, better, faster. And to Winslow's comment about the dog years, that really puts the pressure on us to continue that innovation and working with partners like Intel to get those faster processors in there. Get faster graphics cards in there so that we can get people more emotionally bought in. We can do better textures, we can get more immersion inside the content itself. We're working a lot around VR in terms of opening peoples' eyes for societal impact. So VR for good for instance. Where we're taking people to far flung corners of the Earth. We work with Nat Geo explorer Mike Libecki to show the plight of polar bears in Greenland and how they're gradually becoming extinct for an edutainment and a learning tool. The boundaries are really being pushed in entertainment and film. That's always been the case. Consumer has always really pushed that technology. Commercial's always been a bit of a lagger. They want stability in what's going on. But the creation that's going on here is absolutely fantastic. It's taken what is essentially a prosumer headset and then taking it into that commercial world and lit it up. 360 video, its very inception, people are using it for training inside of their businesses and so that's now going out into businesses now. We're starting to see advances in 360 video with more compute power needed. Where, to the point about immersion and getting people emotionally bought in. Then you can start doing volumetric, getting them in there. And then we're also working with people like Dr. Skip Rizzo who was on our panel yesterday where we're starting to go into, okay, we can treat PTSD. Help people with autism, through the medium of VR. So again, that buys into... >> These are disruptive use cases that are legit? >> Yeah. >> These are big time, market moving, helping people... >> Absolutely. And that where it becomes really, really powerful. Yes, we want our companies to embrace it. Companies are embracing it for training. But when you start seeing the healthcare implications and people crying inside of headsets. That's effecting you deeply, emotionally. If you can make that for good, and change somebody's trigger points inside of PTSD, and the autism side of helping somebody in interview techniques to be able to be more self sufficient, it's absolutely awesome. >> This is the new creative. So what's your take on the new creative? What's your definition? Cause you're talking about a big range of use cases beyond just film making and digital artistry. >> Yeah, absolutely so the new creative is like with all the great work that's here, people are looking at film and entertainment. Now the world really is the oyster for all the creatives out there. People are clamoring out for modelers, artists, story tellers, story experiencers to be able to use that inside their commercial environments to make their businesses more effective. But they're not going to have a 360 video production company inside of their commercial organization. And it's then leveraging all of the creative here and all of the great stuff here. Which is really going to help the whole world a lot. >> Lisa, I want to get your thoughts on this cause you guys at Intel here at the Tech Lounge have a variety of demos, but there's a range of pro and entry level tools that can get someone up and running quickly to pro. And so there's a creative range not only just for digital artistry, but also business we're hearing. So what's the... Cause AI's involved in a lot of this too though. It's not just AI, it's a lot of these things. What's the Intel take on this. >> Well I think it's really an interesting time for us at Intel because one of the things that we have that I think probably nobody else has. We have this amazing slate of products that really cover the end to end process. Both from the creation side of the house all the way to the consumption side. And we talk a lot about our processors. We worked on an amazing project, a couple of huge scenes inside of the Sansar environment. Which is a great tool for really democratizing the creation of spaces. It's a cloud hosted service but it utilizes this amazing client-server architecture. We created four huge spaces in a matter of eight weeks to launch at CES. And some of the technologies that Gary was referring to just in pure processing power like two generations old processors were taking three hours to render just a small portion of a model where our newest generation Core i9s with our opting technology took that time to 15 minutes. So when we think about what we can do now, and those technologies are going to be available in even portable laptop form factors. We've got the piece where we were working here SPHERES. They were able to actually make some corrections and some tweaks basically immediately without having to send them off to some render farm. They were able to do those things. And I know Winslow has talked about that as well. What does it mean to you to be able to react real time. And be able to do your creative craft where you are and then be able to share that so readily. And then you know... I just think that's kind of an amazing equalizer. It's really democratizing the creation process. >> Okay the next question that begs for everyone to address is where are we in this progression? Early? What work needs to get done? Where are we holding back? Is it speeds and feeds? Is it the software? Is it the routines, libraries, art? Where's the bottleneck? Why isn't it going faster? Or is it going faster? >> I would, and I'm sure the team would agree here, I would say that one of the key things is the creator tools themselves, right. They are still somewhat cumbersome. We were talking to another filmmaker. He was like I can't even, I have to play the whole piece from the beginning, I can't just go in and edit, you know change control, being able to collaborate on these pieces with other people. I mean, if you can collaborate in a real world space, you should be able to also collaborate in VR and have change control and all those sorts of things that are necessary to the iteration of a project. So we're trying to work with our software partners. They're all doing a really great job of trying to iterate that, but it's going to take some time. I mean I think that's probably the bigger thing that's holding everything back. We're going to be right there with the processing power and the other technologies that we bring to the table. OEM partners are going to be right there with the best devices. I really think it's something we've all got to push for as far as those tools getting better. >> Brooks, comment on anything? You're in the... >> So for me, the thing that's holding back VR in general is actually the art form itself. One of the great challenges, if you look back, at say the history of film... We're at Sundance, so it's probably fairly apropo. Very early on in the early movies, aside from penny arcade machines that you'd actually stare at, they were 10 minute almost like plays that people would go to almost a playhouse and they'd watch this thing. There were not cuts, there were no angles. It was a single wide shot. Great Train Robbery came around and there was this crazy thing they did called an edit. Where they spliced film together. And if you go back and you read, and they did these dolly shots. People will have no idea what they're watching. There's no way people will be able to follow that. Like people were not happy with it at the time. Now it's stuff that children do on their iMacs at home. They do iMacs all the time, they do it on their iPhones, on their Android devices. These are normal languages of film that we have. VR doesn't have that yet. And there's not a great deal of effort being made in that direction. There's people here doing that. So I'm kind of speaking in the middle of the group, but outside of these people, there's only a handful who are really doing that and it's a significant challenge. When people who are the mainstream consumer put on a VR headset, it needs to be more than just a magic trick where they go oh that's cool. And that tends to be the vast majority of experiences. So what is the thing that is going to make someone go oh I get why we have VR as a medium. And we're not there yet. We're in the direction, but that's >> So you mentioned earlier the point where you can tell if someone's from film or gaming or whatever when you talk to them about VR. Who is the future VR developer? Is it a filmmaker? Is it a gamer? Is it a digital artist? What is this evolving? >> It's a kid in his basement who no one knows and is screwing around with it and is going to do something that everyone thinks is stupid. Like, it's going to be that. Basically every major leap in gaming is kind of the same thing. It's when we understand how ludonarrative dissonance works inside of telling how people move around a space. It's about how we do Dutch angle suddenly in film. And these things get invented. It's going to be some kid who's just screwing around who doesn't have the baggage of the language of film. A lot of the people I know in VR have been fortunate to work in film, in games and interactive or web dev. So you come from a lot of places but someone's going to come along who has none of that baggage. And they're going to be... >> Well you guys are pioneers and you're doing it. So for the first person out there that's in their basement, that inspirational soundbite or comment. How can you guys talk to that person or that group? Because this is the democratization, this is what's happening. It's not the gatekeepers. It's real creatives out there that could come from anywhere. YouTube generation, Twitch generation, gaming. What would you say to that person to motivate them and to give them that passion? >> Well it's only going to get easier, faster, cheaper, all these things are happening. But again, yeah I totally agree with what Brooks said. It's really about the culture and about educating the audience and getting them up to speed. There are some VR experiences that as soon as they put on the headset, like somebody who's never done it before, immediately will take it off cause they'll get nauseated. And then there's people, like kids who are like jet fighters. They've seen everything. You could throw like a 30 frames per second experience at them and that doesn't even phase them. They can be, all of a sudden their worlds are changing and they're like bring it because they're ready for that. So I think it's sort of about raising the bar for what the audience is comfortable with, familiar with, educating the community. There's a lot of tools right now, you know with Unreal and Unity that allow people who have very little... They don't need to know C# or C++, they can get started in a lot of like visual. What you see is what you get. Being able to drag things into a virtual room. And the windows headsets that are out. They refer to them as mixed reality, but just even having the ability to flip up the screen and transition from the virtual world to the real world in milliseconds, it allows you to be able to create things more at the speed of thought instead of coming up with an idea, coding it, and making sure it works, and then eventually putting on the headset. The sooner that we can actually be ideating inside this virtual environment is when things will get really interesting. >> So the next question is to take to the next level is what's the playbook? How does someone get involved? How does someone ingratiate into a community? If I'm an artist, I want to get, and I'm proficient with technology, or maybe not, how do they get involved? Is it community driven? Is it social? You guys mentioned seeing social's a big trend here. How do people get involved? What's the track? >> Well yeah you don't just need to go to a grad school or... There's a lot of programs out there that are popping up. Almost every single major state school has like an interactive art program now. And that wasn't the case like two or three years ago. So we're seeing that that's a big shift in the culture. But again, VR is still... It's expensive and it's you know, like VR, I refer to it's in the stage of it's almost like in the neo geo phase, maybe a little before that. But it's the really expensive thing that your friend's neighbor has. Or his older brother or something. You get to play it a little bit, you're like that's great but there's no way in hell I'm going to... You know, I can't afford that or like that just doesn't really work with my lifestyle right now so it needs to incorporate itself into our everyday, our habits. And it needs to be something that... If we're all doing it then it makes sense for us to do it together not just somebody in their basement doing it by themselves. >> Yeah feel free to comment, this is a good topic. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So what we're doing is sort of about democratization and accessibility. So for people to get into the then they're going to need a rig, they're going to need a headset and previously it's actually been quite expensive to actually take that first plunge into it. So now by democratizing and bringing price points down, it makes it more accessible. That helps content creators because there's now more of an audience that can now consume that content. And the people that can then play with the medium and consume it now have a better reason to do it. So we're working on that. We're also working on the education pieces like Key. It's actually going out there to schools and actually letting them experience VR and play with VR. Because it is a whole new different medium. We've seen film directors and filmmakers go into the VR space and things that worked in 2D film like fast pans and whatever else so the points have already been made don't really translate into VR without somebody losing their lunch. So it is going to be somebody who's coming up who hasn't got the baggage of previous skill sets inside of 2D doing it inside of VR. So we're going to see that. And in terms of the technology, everybody's wanting things to progress. That shows the level of excitement out there. And everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to see it go further. And I'm reminded of the mobile phone. Mobile phone, 30 years ago? Two suitcases for batteries, a large brick on the ear and a car antennae. Okay, so where we are now, if you had a time machine and you went back in time to talk to the inventor of the mobile phone, well, I'd be a lot richer because I know sports results and all, but that aside, but you go back and talk to them and you said do you know in 30 years time, everybody is going to be carrying that device? Everybody's going to be dependent on that device? They're going to get social anxiety and separation anxiety if they lose it. And they will probably laugh in your face. >> Alright so since you brought up the phone analogy, since I love that example, are we in the Blackberry moment of VR and no one yet has built the iPhone? Because the iPhone was the seminal moment for smartphones. And you see what happened there. Is VR needing that kind of break? Or is it there? >> I think we're on the cusp. Where we are at the moment with technology, we've had the headsets, which I say have been more in the consumer space, they've been designed to hit a certain price point. We had CES the other week where we've had advancements now in the resolutions of headset that are now coming out. One of the issues was well I can't see texts, I can't read texts. So from a working environment, if you're actually using tools that you would normally use on a 2D screen, you can now translate that and read that text. However, in terms of the tools that people use, why are we trying to put 2D screens into a VR headset? We've got a whole new way of interacting with data. We've got a whole new way of doing things that are going to be more intuitive than the mouse and keyboard interaction that we're used to. Why just translate that. Let's push that envelope and those are the developments that we're pushing our partners and our ISVs to really embrace. >> So it's an evoution. >> It's absolutely an evolution. >> You guys have any thoughts on that comment. That we have that inflection point, are we hitting that, will we see it soon, is it here? >> Well I think it's a very interesting symbiotic relationship between multiple factors. So you know, we hear the cost factor, we hear the technology factor, then we have the content factor. You know I saw an interesting evolution at CES we had created this virtual booth experience so that you could still come to the CES Intel booth without actually having to be there. And I met a guy in there and I was like hey where are you? He goes I've been in here like all week. (laughter) And I was like oh yeah, where do you live? He goes oh I'm in my basement in Nebraska. But he had just, this was Friday when I met him. He'd been in there all week, but in 2D mode. And he had gone out the night before and bought a headset just so he could come back and go in VR mode. And I think, yes, all these factors have to kind of line up, but I do think that content, those experiences that are going to keep people coming back for more. Like these guys literally kept coming back to our booth. Right, to see... >> Content gain. >> To see who was there. And to them at that point, it wasn't really a barrier of cost. It was like there is something that I want to consume therefore I am going to go get what I need to consume it. And I use the analogy of HDTV, right. When we kind of moved over that hump where there was enough content people didn't really care how much that television cost. >> Sports was great. Sports really highlighted HD. >> Yeah. >> But this is a good point. This is a good question to ask. Brooks, I'd love to get your thoughts. Content drives experiences, amazing experiences, but we're building the scaffolding of everything at the same time. So where are we, what's your opinion? >> So here on the Starbreeze side, we're fortunate because we have our own headset. We have the StarVR headset we've been building with Acer. 5K all of that stuff and we're upgrading it over the next year. Our focus has been, we skipped the consumer market very much. We went straight to location based and enterprise. And the reason we did that is because there's a promise of VR at a basic, I don't want to say technology stand point, but from an experience perspective, when it comes to that resolution, when it comes to that field of view, when it comes to these things people expect. Average consumers who go to a movie and they see these giant screens. They want that translated. They don't have the understanding like we do of well, LED panels are actually a pain in the ass to build and it takes a little bit and they flip at their own speeds. Time to photon is not a thing my dad will ever see in his life. But there's a reality that people have a need for that. And it is extremely expensive. It's again the reason we went straight to LBE. But for us it's about marrying the two and consistently trying to match what's happening. So when we're talking about, as I mentioned earlier the technology and how we're standing on the shoulders of giants very very quickly, someone who's doing technology is going to see what we're doing content wise and go well I can do that better technology wise. And then we're just going to keep leap frogging. And it's very similar to the phone in the same way that we're not at the final stage of the phone. Like we're at our stage of the phone and no doubt in 30 years people will laugh at us for carrying anything. The same way we laugh about the briefcases and the giant batteries in the cars we had to pull with us. So it's one of those things that's continually transitional. And VR's in an odd, amazing place. >> Well you know, it was a lot of waves that we've all seen. You mentioned the mobile phone, that's a good one to point to. It feels like the PC revolution to me because the same culture of entrepreneurs and pioneers come from a bunch of different backgrounds. So I'd like to get Brooks perspective and Winslow's perspective on this because I think there's an entrepreneurial culture out there right now that's just emerging very fast. It's not like your classic entrepreneur software developer. So in this movement, in this wave, the entrepreneur is the filmmaker, it could be the kid in the basement, could be the gamer. Those entrepreneurs are trying to find a path. >> Yeah, it's a weird mix. VR is at this odd point where not only is it the people who are wanting to be cutting edge in terms of content or technology, but also that first mover strategy from the business side of things. And so everyone wants to be those guys who are charging ahead because in reality, if you look at the financials around all of this, VR is one of those things that you don't want to finance. It's not nearly as safe as say Marvel Avengers or the next Call of Duty. >> You've got to be, you've got to hustle. >> Yeah you've got to hustle. You've got to make... >> What's your advice? >> Start doing it. That's really it. It's the same advice I used to give to game makers when people would be like well I want to learn how to make games. It's like go to YouTube, download a thing and go do it. There's literally no reason why you can't. >> Are there meetups or like the Homebrew Computer Club that spawned the Mac. >> There are, there are infinite groups of VR people who are more than happy to give you all the terrible and wonderful opinions that come with that. There's no shortage of people. There's no shortage and it's an amazingly helpful group. Because everyone wants someone else to figure out something so they can steal that and then figure out something else. >> Winslow, your advice to entrepreneurs out there that are young and/or 14 to 50, what should they do? Jump right in obviously is a good one. >> Well yeah, experiment, break things, that's really the only way to learn. I would say watch as much VR as you can because sometimes bad VR is the best VR. Because you can learn don't do that. And if you learn, if you put all that together, you can really... It's like this lexicon that you can really follow. Also, I think we... As people in tech, we kind of get obsessed with things like resolution, frame rate, and these are very important, but it's also good to remember, or at least for me, I watch some of the best experiences from storytelling when I was a kid, eight years old on a 12 inch screen that was 640 by 480. You know, like scan lines on the VHS. But for me the story still resonated and it's important to think of story first, but obviously it's a dance between the story and the technology. They kind of have to both organically work together. And if they don't, one thing in the story that doesn't work because the tech isn't supporting it, can throw you out of the experience. >> Other concern entrepreneurs might have is financing. How do I get someone to help me build it? And then doing relationships. Finding relationships that could... One plus one equals more than two, right. So how do you? >> You have to get really creative when it comes to funding right now. Unless you're doing location based, which also requires a certain amount of investment to get it up to a bar where you want to be showing it to people with all the haptic effects when it's heat, smell, vibration, stuff like that. You know, it's not cheap to develop. But as far as like working with film foundations, we're fortunate enough to be sponsored by Fledgling Fund and Chicken and Egg. But we also were able to get partnerships with people like Intel and NVidia. And also work with people who come from a traditional film background. There's not one way to successfully fund a project. There's a million. And that's why it's interesting that the technology's innovating, but also the market place is as well. >> One of the things I want to ask is as any new industry gets building, is cultures form early. DNA forms in the entrepreneurs, in the pioneers. And one of the big hottest topics in the creative world is inclusion and diversity. So what's the makeup of the culture of this new generation? Because democratization means everyone can participate, everyone's involved. What's the state of the community vis a vis diversity, inclusion, and the role of the actors in the community. >> Well I think it's important to understand that VR has a profound ability to place you in somebody else's shoes. The trick though is to make sure that those feel like they're your shoes. But I think that we're learning a lot more about story telling techniques and we're able to empower people that their voices you know were previously not heard. The tricky thing is being able to yeah, educate all different groups of people how to use the technology, but once they're enabled and empowered to do it, it's amazing what you can experience inside the headset. >> So VR can be an enabler for education, outreach, a variety of things? >> Yes, I mean the term empathy, empathy machine gets thrown around a lot. You could do a drinking game around it. For panels when people are talking about it. But it's important to know there is a truth to that. And it's, yeah the perspective shift from looking at a screen, a 16 by 9 screen where you can look away, then dissolving the screen and becoming that person. Becoming the director, the actor, the camera person, the editor. When you're in the first person perspective, there's so much more... It feels more personal and that's a really interesting angle that we're going to continue to explore. >> So you could walk in someone's shoes, literally? >> Yes, you literally can. You just have to make sure that you got a... The tracking system's proper or else you'll look like there's... It can be come a horror movie pretty quickly if your leg is behind your head. >> Lisa, your thoughts on this, I know it's important to you. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's fascinating because I've been in tech for a really long time. And seen many, many trends. I mean the first job I had at Intel I was a PC tech and as you can imagine as a female, I think there was one other tech female in the department at the time and I would get funny looks when I would show up with my bag. They were like hi can I help you? I'm like I'm not here to deliver coffee, I'm here to fix your computer, you know. So I've seen a lot of trends and it's super exciting to me to see so much diversity cross culture, cross country, I mean we're having... We had guys come in from all over the world. From even war torn, they've escaped their country just several years ago and they're coming and they're bringing all that creativity to the market. We're seeing very, very strong female contingent from the filmmaker perspective so it's this wonderful, wonderful just primordial soup of people that I think are growing their own voice and their own power. They're breaking molds as far as how you actually get content produced. Distribution is kind of crazy right now. I mean, how do you get it distributed? There's like so many different ways. But all of those things are so important to the evolutionary and biological process of this. Yes, we need to let it go and sometimes we're frustrated. We're like where's the standards? Where's the one ring to rule them all? Where there's not going to be one. And it's good for us that there's not right now. It's frustrating from a business perspective sometimes. You're like, I can't peanut butter myself around all of these places, but I think it's just a very unique time where so many people are... The technology is accessible, that means that so many creators can now bring their fresh voice to this space and it's just going to be fascinating to continue to watch. >> That's awesome. Well two more questions and I'll give you some time to think about the last one which is your perspective on Sundance, what's happening this year, your personal view of what you think's happening, what might happen during this year. But the question I have for you now is to go down the line. We'll start with Brooks here, and talk about the coolest thing that you're involved in right now. >> It actually has to be Hero. We're debuting it here at Sundance. We've been working on it and not talking about it for about nine months. And it's been very difficult. Again it's sacrosanct to the experience that you don't know literally what you're getting in to. And the emotional response has been essentially our goal, trying to find out how far can we take that. You actually being in a space, moving around, having that interactivity, doing what you would do. But it being your story and how deeply we can absolutely effect a human being. And again, watching people come out, it's one of those things, I've been doing game development, I've worked on films, I've done all kinds of stuff. And you usually get a chance when someone experiences something you've made, you walk up to them and you go so what'd you think? And that's not at all what we can do with ours. >> How has it impacted you, that reaction? >> Well, I personally suffer significant PTSD and I've had some traumas in my life. And so it's been incredibly powerful to be able to share these things with people. Share this emotion in a deeply profound, yet amazingly personal way. Which I'm amazingly fortunate to be able to be a part of it. >> Alright thanks for sharing. Coolest thing that's going on with you right now here at Sundance. >> Just the fact that I'm here at all. I mean, it's incredible right? Personally was able to be an advisor on the SPHERES project that is premiering here with Eliza McNitt. She's someone who was an Intel Science Fair winner back in high school and kind of came back to us. So just to see the evolution of an artist really from the beginning to the point where they've been able to come here to Sundance. I'm also very passionate about the work that we're doing with Sansar. I kind of consider myself one of the chief storytellers at Intel around Virtual reality and this new move into social where people are like well what's this game. I'm like, it's not a game. It's you are the game, you are the interactivity. You become the person that makes the space interesting. We're just really setting the scene for you. And there's so many... You know there's a lot of different people kind of chasing this be togetherness. But what we've been able to produce there. And just to be able to explore some of my own personal ideas has just been such a gift. Then to be working with guys like these on the panels and see what they're doing and just be in touch is really just an exciting time. >> John: Awesome. >> Probably what, other than the people on the projects, or the projects that are being shown here, we're working on our new project, which we would have loved to premiere here, but we did... Basically when you get in, you have two months to create a piece, so you have a demo and you have to finish it, so we're taking a little bit more time. This one's going to be about a year development cycle. It's called Breathe where we take you from where Giant left off, where, in Giant, the ceiling collapses on a family. They're in front of you. In this experience, we use a breathing apparatus to basically bring yourself back to life. And then you realize you're trapped under rubble and you remove the... We actually want to have physical objects on top of you that are going to be tracked. So you're moving rubble from you and you realize that you're a six year old girl. You're the survivor from Giant. And you get to witness what it's like to be a future refugee sort of in different key moments of her life that use breath. Whether it's a flirtatious moment, blowing a dandelion, seeing your own breath in snow as a drone shows you a message that your parents pre-recorded on your 18th birthday. This is all in the future, obviously, but every time you walk around an object, you actually grow 10 to 15 years older in the experience. As you get older, the world becomes smaller. And then we witness what's like for her last breath. From being six years old to being 90 years old. But it's a profound personal experience. >> John: That sounds cool, cool. Gary, coolest thing that you're involved in right now at Sundance. >> Wow. I could say it's all cool that would be a bit trite. They say if you enjoy what you do, is it really a job? And I'm lucky enough to be in that position. Because working with all these guys here and like people around the place, they're doing such great things that every day I wake up and I'm astounded of where the industry's going. In terms of what we're doing here at Sundance, then we're really starting to push those envelopes as well. I've been lucky enough to be involved with Dunkirk and Spider-Man: Homecoming. Like last year, so some great pieces there. And moving out into this year, we've got some other developments which I can't mention at this point, but we're showing things like AR and VR mashup. So we haven't talked much about augmented reality here. It's an evolutionary, it's not a replacement. Both can be used and we've started to really start to blend those two technologies now. So you can still see the outside world. Just touching on the commercial side, and health care's very big for me. That's where I think the really cool stuff is happening. Entertainment is great and that's really pushing the envelope and allowing us to then take it for the good of human kind. >> It happens everywhere, it's not just entertainment. >> Yeah absolutely. You start looking at MRI scans inside of VR or AR. Talking a patient through it so they can actually see exactly what you're talking about. You're now no longer pointing at flat things on a screen. You're now actually taking them through it. If you're using AR, you can actually judge the responses of the patient as for how they're reacting to the news. And effectively, inside of the VR, and what's really cool for me is seeing people's reaction to that content and to the entertainment content. >> That's awesome. Okay final question. This is a little bit of self serving because I'd like you to help me do my job at SiliconANGLE. If you were a reporter and you were going to report the most important stories happening this year at Sundance or really kind of what's really happening versus what's kind of being billed to be happening here. What's the story? What is the story this year at Sundance 2018 in your personal perspective? We'll go down the line and share your observations. >> Well, mine here, I'm a Sundance newbie. This is my first year of being here. I'm absolutely astounded by the community spirit that's around. I go to a lot of technical trade shows and technical presentations. People coming here with a willingness to learn. Wanting to learn from other people. It's been touched on already. It's the pool of knowledge that's available inside of Sundance that everybody that comes here can actually tap into to create better content, to learn not what to do as well as learn what to do. And I just think that's brilliant because in that community spirit, that's really going to help enable this industry quickly. >> John: Winslow, you've got some experience, what's your thoughts? >> Obviously, this Intel house, just a little plug for you Lisa. (laughter) Tech Lounge. We got that? Okay good. I mean, yeah, the people that's here. Every year we come here and see where the high water mark is. All these people are... Some of these teams first started with two people and then they grew to six and then by the end of it, there's 100 people working around the clock, pulling all-nighters to be able to give the latest and greatest of what's available with these current tools. So it's amazing because the work itself doesn't really mean anything until people get to experience it. So that's nice that they make a big splash. The people here are very attentive to it. It's a very nice audience and this will continue the momentum for future festivals throughout the year, but also will excite people that have never done VR before. People who have never been to Sundance before. We're seeing that there's a lot of new people. And that will continue to influence many years to come. >> John: So you think VR is the top story here being told? >> As far as like just to generalize, I would say last year kind of the big VR year. This is kind of the big AR year. Next year's going to be the AI year. Then after that we're going to start putting them all together. >> John: Great, great feedback. >> I think it's just exciting for Intel just to be back here. I think Intel hasn't been here in quite some time. Dell coming in here probably one of the breakout years for us to come back and really talk to creators what we're doing from the Intel Studios all the way through to the stuff you can take home and do at home. And I think coming in, we're coming back here with a purpose really, not just to be here to be seen. We're really here with real things and want to have real conversations on how tech can enable what people are doing. Not just from a brand perspective, but from a real hands on point of view. >> John: Yeah, some great demos too, phenomenal tech. >> Really just, yeah everything from the AI stuff we have to the social to the great new pieces that have been submitted here like we mentioned with SPHERES. So I think, yeah, it doesn't feel gratuitous to me you know that Dell or Intel is here this year. We've really come with a purpose. >> You guys are moving the needle, it's really awesome. We need more horsepower. >> Brooks, your thoughts on Sundance this year. Observation, the vibe, what would you tell your friend back home when you get back? >> If, for me, I think it's almost the non-story. It's like the opposite of a story. It's just the deep integration of VR into the normal Sundance flow I think has been interesting. Some people have been here for a few years. And back in the day when it was one or two, it was a lot of oh, you do VR? What's that then? Whereas now, you see a lot more people who are crossing over. Going to see documentaries, then they come to see a VR piece and it's just a part of the normal flow. And the team at New Frontier has done exceptional work to kind of make sure that they have this ridiculous high level of broad content for all kinds of people. All kinds of experiences, all high end things. But it's not that VR's here. Oh good, we have a VR section. It's a lot more of an integrated set up. And it's been really encouraging to see. >> Well you guys have been great. It's been very inspirational. Great information. You guys are reimagining the future and building it at the same time so entrepreneurially and also with content and technology. So thanks so much for sharing on this panel The New Creative. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of Sundance 2018 here at the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>live from the Frederick P Rose Hall, home of jazz at Lincoln center in New York, New York. It's the queue at IBM Z. Next redefining digital business. Brought to you by headline sponsor. IBM. >>Hey everyone. We are here live in New York city for the IBM Z system. Special presentation of the cube. I'm John furrier, cofounder SiliconANGLE at my coast. Dave Alante co founder Wiki bond.org. Dave, we are here with gathering Corine, vice president of the Z systems technology. Welcome to the cube. Great to have you. >>Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. It's an exciting day for us. >>We had a great conversation last night. I wanted to just get you introduced to the crowd one year overseeing a lot of the technology side of it. You're involved in the announcement, but uh, you're super technical and uh, and, and the speeds and feeds of this thing are out there. It's in the news, it's in the press, but it's not really getting the justice. And we were talking earlier on our intro about how the main frame is back in modernize, but it's not your grandfather's mainframe. Tell us what's different, what's the performance tech involved, why is it different and what should people be aware of? >>Sure. So this machine really is unmatched. We have tremendous scale performance in multiple dimensions that we can talk through. The IO subsystem provides tremendous value security that's unmatched. So many of the features and attributes to the system just cannot be compared to other platforms. And the Z 13 what we're announcing today evolves and improves so many of those attributes. We really designed the system to support transaction growth from mobility, to do analytics in the system, integrated with the data and the transactions that we can drive insights when they really matter and support it. Cloud delivery. >>So there's two, two threads that are out there in the news that we've wanted to pivot on. One is the digital business model, and that's out in the press release is all the IBM marketing and action digital business. We believe as transformers, that's pretty much something that's gonna be transformative. But performance with the cloud has been touted, Hey, basically unlimited performance with cloud. Think of compute as a not a scarce resource anymore. How do you guys see that? Cause you guys are now pushing performance to a whole nother level. Why can't I just get scale out saying or scale out infrastructure, build data centers. What is this fitted with that mindset or is it, >>yeah, so I, there's, there's performance in so many different dimensions and I'll can talk you through a few of them. So at the, at the heart of the technology in this system, we have tremendous value in from the processor up. So starting at the base technology, we build the microprocessor in 22 nanometer technology, eight cores per chip. We've got four layers of cash integrate on this. More cash that can be accessed from these processor cores then can compare to anything else. Tremendous value. Don't have to go out through IO to memory as frequently as you would have to in other environments. We also have an iOS SIS subsystem that has hundreds of additional processing cores that allows you to drive workload fast through that. Um, so I think it's the, it's, it's the, the, the scale of this system that can allow you to do things in a single footprint that you have to do with a variety of distributed environments separately coupled with unique security features, embedded encryption capability on the processor, PCIE attached, tamper resistance, cryptography, compression engines as so many of these technologies that come together to build a system. >>So IBM went to the, went to the, went to the woodshed back and took all the good technology from the back room cobbled together. Cause you guys have done some pretty amazing things in the, what they call proprietary days, been mainframe back in the sixties seventies eighties and client server a lot of innovation. So you guys, is that true? Would that be an accurate statement? You guys kind of cobbled together and engineered this system with the best >>engineered from, from from soup to nuts, from the casters up. We live, we literally have made innovations at almost every level here in the system. Now it's evolved from previous generations and we have tremendous capabilities in the prior ones as well. But you see across almost every dimension we have improved performance scape scalability capability. Um, and we've done that while opening up the platform. So some of the new capabilities that we're discussing today include enterprise Linux. So Linux on the platform run Linux on many platforms. Linux is Linux, but it's even better on the Z 13 because now you have the scalability, the security, the availability behind it and new open support, we're announcing KVM will be supported on this platform later this year we have OpenStack supported, we're developing an ecosystem around this. We have renouncing Postgres, Docker, no JS support on the mainframe. And that's tremendously exciting because now we're really broadening a user base and allowing users to do a lot more with Linux on the main. >>So one of the big themes that we're hearing today is bringing marrying analytics and transaction systems together. You guys are very excited about that. Uh, one of the, even even the New York times article referenced this, people are somewhat confused about this because other people talk about doing it. We go to the Hadoop world, you know, we talked big data, spark in memory databases, SAP doing their stuff with Hannah. What's different about what Z systems are doing? >>That's a great question. So today many users are moving data off of platforms, including the mainframe to do their analytics. Moving back on this ETL process, extract, transform load. It's incredibly expensive, cumbersome copies of that data. You have redundancy, you have security risk, tremendous complexity to manage. And it's totally unnecessary today because you can do that analytics now on the system Z platform, driving tremendous capability insights that can be done within the transaction and integrated where the transactions and the data live. So much more value to do that. And we've built up a portfolio of capabilities and some of them are new. We're an announcing as part of today's event as well that can allow us to do transformation of the data analytics of that data. And it, and it's, it's at every level, right? We have embedded analytics, accelerators in the process or a new engine we call Cindy single instruction. Multiple data allows you to do, uh, a mathematical, uh, vector processing. >>Let's drill down on that. I want to get your particular on this. You have the in process or stuff is compelling to me. I like, I want to drill down on that. Get technical. Right now all the rage is in memory in memory. She's not even on the big data. Spark has got traction for the analytics. DTL thing is a huge problem. I think that's 100% accurate across the board. We hear that all the time. But what's going on in the process server because you guys have advanced not just in memory, it's in processor. What is that architecture, what are the, some of the tech features and why is that different than just saying, Hey, I'm doing a lot of in memory. >>So, so the process or has um, a deeper and richer cash hierarchy, um, than, than we see in other environments. That means we have four layers of cash. Two of those cash layers are embedded within the processor core itself. They're private to the core. The next layer is on the processor chip and it's shared amongst all those cores. And the fourth layer on a herder, right, is on a separate chip. It's huge. It's embedded DRAM technology. It's a tremendously large cash and we've expanded that, which means you don't have to go out to memory nearly as frequently because you, >>you stayed in the yard that stayed in the yard today in memory is state of the art today. You guys have taken it advanced inside the core. What kind of performances that dude, what's the, what's the advantage? >>There's huge performance advantages to that. We see, we see, we can do, uh, analytics. Numbers are something like 17 times faster than comparable solutions. Being able to bring those analytics into the system for insights when you need them, right? To be able to do faster of scoring of transactions, to be able to do faster fraud detection with so many applications. So many industries are looking to be able to bring these insights faster, more co-located with the data and not have to wait the latency associated with moving data off and, and, and doing some sort of analysis on data that's stale. How that's not interesting. We really want to be able to to integrate that where the data and the transactions live and we can now do that on the. >>So in memory obviously is awesome, right? You can go much faster. A best IO is no IO as gene Amdahl would say, but if something goes wrong and you have to flush the memory in reload >>everything, it's problematic. How does IBM address that? So to minimize that problem relative to we hear you hear complaints and other architectures that that that's problematic. How do you solve that problem or have you solved that problem? >>Well, you know, I think it's a combination of, of the cash, the memory and the analytics capabilities, the resiliency of the system. So you worry about machines going down, failures and we've built in security, reliability, redundancy at every level to prevent failures. We have diagnostic capabilities, things like the IBM Z aware solution, right? This is a solution that's been used to monitor the system behavior so that you can identify anomalous behaviors before you have a problem that's been available with cos. now we're extending that to Linux for the first time. We have solutions like disaster recovery, continuous availability solutions like the GDPs, uh, it's now extended to be a virtual appliance for Linux. So I, there's so many features and functions. This system allow you to have a much more robust, capable, >>popular is Linux. Can you quantify that? You guys talk a lot about Linux and can you give us some percentage? >>Linux has been around for 15 years on the mainframe and um, we have a very good user adoption. We're, we're, we're seeing a large fraction of our clients are running Linux either all by itself or in concert with Zoes. >>So double digit workloads. >>Yeah, it's a very, it's a very significant fraction of the myths in the field today. >>God, I don't want to get a personal perspective from you on some things. One, you went, uh, you have an applied physics degree from Yale, master's from an applied physics from Stanford, PhD, applied physics from Stanford and all the congratulations by the way, you're super smart means you, it means you can get to the schools you means you're, you're smart. But the rage is software defined, right? So I want you to tell us from your perspective being in applied physics, the advances in Silicon is really being engineered now. So is it the combination of that software defined? What's your perspective? What should people know about the tech at the physics side of it? Cause you can't change physics know the other day, but Silicon is doing some good stuff. So talk about that, that convergence between the physics, Silicon and software. >>Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. So I think what sets us apart here with the mainframe is our ability to integrate across that stack. So you're right, Silicon Silicon piece of 22 nanometers Silicon, we can all do similar things with it, but when you co optimize what you do with that Silicon with high-performance system design, with innovations at every level, from where operating systems software, you can build an end to end solution that's unmatched. And with an IBM, we, we, we do that. We really have an opportunity to collaborate across the stack. So can we put things in the operating system? It can take advantage of something that's in that hardware and being able to do that gives us a unique opportunity. And we've done that here, right? Whether it's the Cyndi accelerator and having our software capabilities or see Plex optimizes a Java, be able to take advantage of what's in that, uh, in that microprocessor, we see that with new instructions that we offer here that can be taken advantage of compilers that optimize for what's in the technology. So I think it's that, it's that co optimization across the stack. You're right, software as a user, you see the software, you see the solution, you see the capability at the machine. But to get that you need the infrastructure underneath it, you need the capabilities that can be exploited by the software. And that's why that, >>and we're seeing that in dev ops right now with the dev ops movement. You're seeing, I want to abstract away the complexities of infrastructure and have software be more optimized. And here you guys are changing the state of the art in with the in-memory to in processor architecture, but also you're enabling developers and software to work effectively. >>Right? And I think about cloud service delivery, right? You know, and we would love to be able to offer end users it as a service so we can access the mainframe. All of those qualities of service that we know and love about the mainframe without the complexity and can do that. Technologies like Zoes connect and Blumix with system Z mobile first platform, allowing you to connect from systems, engagements, the six systems of Rutgers deploy Z services. So you can, we were trying to help our clients to be able to not be cost centers for their, uh, for their firms but to provide value added services. And that can be done with the capabilities on the main. >>So no, Docker, OpenStack KVM, obviously we talked about Linux. What does that mean from a business standpoint, from the perspective of running applications? Can you sort of walk us through what you expect clients to do or what >>it's, it's, it's all about standardization and really expanding an ecosystem for users on the platform. And we want anybody running Linux anywhere to be able to run it on, run their applications, develop their applications on the mainframe. And to be able to take advantage of the consolidation opportunities driven by the scale the platform and be able to drive unmatched end to end security solutions on this plot. Right? It's, it's a combination of enabling an ecosystem to be able to do what users expect to be able to do. And that ecosystem continues to evolve. It's very rapidly changing. We know we have to respond, but we want to make sure that we are providing the capabilities that developers and users expect on the platform. And I think we've taken a tremendous leap at the Z 13 to be able to do that. >>So obviously Linux opened up. That was the starting point. Right? Um, what do you expect with the sort of new open innovations? Will you pull in more workloads, more applications or, >>I certainly believe we will. And you know, new workloads on the platform. This is, this is a, an evolution for us and we continue to see the opportunity to bring new workloads to the platform. Things, support of, of, of Linux. And the expanding ecosystem there helps us to do that effectively. We see that, whether it's um, the, the, the transaction growth from mobile and being able to say, what does that mean for the mainframe? How can we not just respond to that but take advantage, enable new opportunities there. And I, so I think absolutely Linux will help us to grow workloads to get into new spaces and really continue to modernize the mainframe. >>John and I were talking at the open Paul Moritz at the time, CEO of VMware in 2009. So we are going to build a software mainframe. Um, interesting, very bold statement. Don't, where's he working on pivotal? Do you have a software mainframe? Have you already built it? >>I don't think you can have software that running on something. And so the mainframe is not a piece of hardware. The mainframe's a solution. It's a platform that includes technology, infrastructure, hardware and the software capabilities that run on it. And as I said, I think it's the integration that the co optimization across that really provides value to clients. I don't know how you can have a software solution without some fundamental infrastructure that gives you the qualities of service. That's so much of the inherent security availability. All of that is >>that's a marketing. It didn't, it didn't pan out. The vision was beautiful and putting a great PowerPoint together. he went to pivotal now, but I think what's happening is what you're, what you're talking about is it's distributed mainframe capability. The scale out open source movement has driven the wannabe mainframe market to explode. And so what now you look at Amazon, you can Google look at these, these power data centers. They are mainframes. In essence, they are centralized places. Well, they want to say the cloud is a software mainframe. Software runs on these data centers. So instead of having rack and stack, uh, three x86 processors, you just drop into mainframe or God box as I call it. And you have this monster box that's highly optimized and then you could have clusters of other stuff around it. Your argument is the integration is what, what makes the difference that end. And so Amazon makes their own gear, right? We know that now they don't do open compute. They're making their own gear. So people who want to be Amazon would probably go to some kind of hybrid mainframe. Like they're not making their own. 70 makes sense of that cause Amazon, I mean they purpose built their own boxes. They are building their own point though, right? I mean to the outside of the box. Right. >>The way I see it as is for for mission critical applications where you cannot support any downtime, you want to have a system that's built from the ground up for pure availability for security and we have that right? We have a system that you can prevent failures, right? We have redundancy at so many levels. We have, we have, you know, if a transaction, different model rate, you win when you take money out of your account or when you transfer money more potently into your account, you need to make sure it's there, right? You want to know that with a hundred percent confidence and to do that I would expect you feel more confident running that >>credit card transactions, same game all over again. Mission critical versus non mission critical, I mean internet of things. But what's not mission critical is my follow up question here of things. Some sensors data that's passive. I, if it's running my airplane, ass running your temperature. Oh, you're down for 10 minutes. I mean, yeah, >>there were some times that we would accept, accepts and downs. >>Lumpy. No, it's really about lumpy SLA performing. Amazon gets away with that because the economics are fantastic, right? So you can't be lumpy and bank transaction. What about costs versus, Oh mainframe. So expensive, so expensive. You guys put out some TCO data that suggest it's less expensive. Help us get through that. >>Yeah, so, so I think when we look at total cost of ownership, we're often looking at the savings to administration and the management of the complexity of sprawl. And with the mainframe, because you have such scale and what you can include in it in a single footprint, you can now consolidate so much into this literally very small environment and the cost savings because of the integration capabilities, because of the performance that you can contain within this box, you see end-to-end cost savings for our clients. And in that, that the break even point is not so large. Right. And so you talked about mission critical. If you're doing your mission critical work on your mainframe and you have other things that you need to do that aren't, you don't consider perhaps as mission critical, you have an opportunity to consolidate. You can do that all on the same platform. You're, you're not, you know, we, we can run with tremendous utilization. You can, you want to use these machines for all their work. >>So sorry. So a follow up on that. So the stickiness then AKA lock-in used to be, I got a bunch of COBOL code that won't run anywhere else. He got me, I got to keep buying Mayfair. I was just saying now the stickiness is for the types of workloads that your clients are running. It is cheaper. That's your, >>it's cheaper. And I think it has unmatched capability, availability, security features that you can't find in other solutions. >>And if you had to, in theory you could replicate it, but it would just be so expensive with people. >>In theory, I, okay. But I think some the fundamental technologies and solutions across that stack, who else can do that? Right. Okay. Can integrate solutions in the hardware and all the way up that stack. And, and I, I don't know anyone else, >>tell me what, tell me what, in your opinion, what gets you most excited about this technology platform? I mean, is there a couple things? Just are one thing saying >>that is so game changing. I'm super excited by this. Um, I can't sleep at night. I'm intoxicated technically. I mean, what gets you jazzed up on this? >>Well, I, I'll tell you, it's, today's a really proud day. I have to say being here and being a part of this launch, you know, personally having been a part of the development, been an IBM for 15 years. I spent the last eight years doing hardware development, including building components and key parts of the system. And now to see us bring that to market and with the value that I know we're bringing to clients, it's, it get, I, I get a little choked up. I truly, honestly, I truly, honestly feel really, really proud about what we've done. Um, so in terms of what is most exciting, um, I think the analytics story is incredibly powerful and I think being able to take a bunch of the technologies that we've built up over time, including some of the new capabilities like in database transformation and advanced analytics that we'll be continuing to roll out over the course of this year. I think this can be really transformative and I think we can help our clients to take advantage of that. I think they will see tremendous value to their business. We'll be able to do things that we simply couldn't do with the old model of moving data off and, and having the latency that comes with that. So I'm really excited about that >>nice platform, not just a repackaging of mainframe. Okay, great. So second, final question from me I want to ask you is two perspectives on, um, the environment, the society we live in. So first let's talk it CIO, CEO, what mindset should they be in as this new transformation? The digital businesses upon them and they have the ability to rearchitect now with mainframe and cloud and data centers. What should they be thinking about as someone who has a PhD in applied physics, been working on this killer system? What is the, what's the moonshot for that CIO and, and how should they be thinking about their architecture right now? >>So I think CEO's need to be thinking about what is a good solution for the variety of problems that they have in their shops and not segment those as we've often seen. Um, you have the x86 distributed world and maybe you have a main frame this and that. I begin to think about this more holistically about the set of challenges you need to go address as a business. And what capabilities do you want to bring to bear to solve those problems? I think that when you think about it that way, you get away from good enough solutions. You get away from some of this, um, mindset that you have about this only plays over there. And this only plays over there. And I think you open yourself up for new possibilities that can drive tremendous value to their businesses. And we can think differently about how to use technology, drive efficiency, drive performance, and real value. >>Last night at dinner, we, we all, we all have families and kids. Um, and you know, even there's a lot of talk about software driving the world these days. And it is, software's amazing. It's great. Best time to be a software developer. Since I've been programming since I was in college and, and it's so much so awesome with open source. However, there's a real culture hacker culture now with hardware. So, um, what's your advice to young people out there? You know, middle schoolers or parents that have kids in middle school for women, young girls, young boys with this. Now you've got drones, you've got hackers, raspberry pie, these kinds of things are going on. You've got kind of this Homebrew computer mindset. These young kids, they don't even know what Apple butter >>I would say it is, it is so exciting. Uh, the, the, the engineering world, the technology challenges, hardware or software. And I wouldn't even differentiate. I think we have a tremendous opportunity to do new and exciting things here. Um, I would say to young girls and boys don't opt out too soon. That means take your classes, studying math and science in school and keep it as an option because you might find when you're in high school or college or beyond, that you really want to do this cool stuff. And if you haven't taken the basics, you, you find yourselves not in a position to be able to, to, to, to team and build great things and deliver new products and provide a lot of value. So I think it's a really exciting area. And I've been >>it's a research as I'm seeing like this. I mean I went to the 30th anniversary for apples Macintosh in Cupertino last year and that whole Homebrew computer club was a hacker culture. You know, the misfits, if you will. And a coder camp. >>I think that think there are people who grow up in, always know that they want to be the engineer, the software developer. And that's great. And then there are others of us, and I'll put myself in that in that space that you may have a lot of different interests. And what has drawn me to engineering and to the, the work that we do here is has been the, the ability to solve tough problems, to, to do something you've never, no one has ever done before, to team with fantastically smart people and to build new technology. I think it's an incredibly exciting space and I encourage people to think about that opportunity >>from a person who has a PhD in applied physics. That's awesome. Thank Kevin. Thanks for joining us here inside the queue, VP of systems. Again, great time to be a software build. Great time to be making hardware and solutions. This is the cue. We're excited to be live in New York city. I'm John furry with Dave Alante. We'll be right back. This rep break.