>> Announcer: From Palo Alto, it's theCube, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017. Brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of Women Transforming Technology here at VMware in beautiful, sunny Palo Alto, California. I'm Rebecca Knight, your host, and I'm joined by Lori MacKenzie. She is the executive director of the Clayman Institute for Research at Stanford University. Lori, thank you so much for joining us here today. >> So happy to be here. >> So, we were talking before the cameras were rolling about your research and one of the things you were talking about is the frozen middle and I really like that terminology because there's so much research about the subtle biases that women face in the workplace and how management can make all the difference. So, tell us a little bit about this frozen middle and about the strategies you're using to help middle managers become better managers. >> You know, people often say employees leave managers, they don't leave companies, and so, the manager really is setting the experience of every employee and so, our question is this: Can you help managers be more inclusive in a way it makes them feel like they're both better managers and better business leaders? So, what we do is we do experiments with them. We say, "Try this" or "Try that," that will block bias and make you more effective. For example, do you know what you're evaluating people on? Do you have a toolkit for that? What kind of dashboard might you create to make yourself more effective? It turns out, when managers create something themselves, based on gender research, and it helps them be more effective. They'll even fight new HR people trying to change them back to a different process because they know it works. And for me, that's the win-win. Managers co-design it, it's based on gender research, and because it makes them more effective, they're more likely to redo these processes themselves, even if they don't have any HR support. >> So, part of it is training, but it also, it sounds like a lot of it is also ownership, too. >> Yes, absolutely. What we found is sometimes inclusion or diversity training is decoupled from what people do everyday at work. What if we put them together and talk about you creating something using the gender knowledge and thinking about what you do every day at work? When you couple those back together, that's when it really matters to managers and makes them feel more effective. >> So often, diversity and gender issues is part of the HR function of a company. >> Lori: Absolutely. >> But your approach is really different. Tell us a little bit about what how you recommend companies think about gender and diversity. >> So, you need diversity inclusion to live somewhere. You need an owner of it and it makes sense that it's owned by the HR function. And we think that's essential. >> Rebecca: And it makes sense because it starts with hiring? Or because? >> And with people 'cause it starts with people. These are all people and people crosses every single function, from marketing to technology, to law, and that makes sense. It's necessary, but not sufficient to motivate change. Change happens because each function and each person believes that it improves what they're doing. So, for example, the rollout of something like Agile software development, software developers use it because they were told it makes them develop better software. What if we approached diversity like that? Managers start to be curious about it and engage in it because they thought made them better developing software that was unbiased, their team meetings went better, more voices were included, people weren't leaving. When you embed it in what people do every day, that's when it's not something that disappears when the HR person disappears. It's embedded in what people do every day and we think that's really important. >> And you were also talking about, you were talking about thinking about this in terms of product rollout, but also, in terms of how people are introduced and how they interact. >> So, we've discovered language matters. And often, if we don't think strategically about language, stereotypes will guide how we call people, regardless of who they are. So, we might tend to say, "I love working with Lori. "She's so great. "She's my best friend." And "I appreciate working with," let's say, "Brian, because he's a strong leader and very strategic." And even though I think they're both really great and really strategic, the audience takes a very different perspective of what people's contribution is. So, language matters, how we introduce people. I always tell people look closely at your LinkedIn profile. Look at how you're endorsing people and try to use language that reflects your values, which are both very driving, strategic, and collaborative teamworking. Combine them, don't default to one or the other, based on stereotypes. >> So, can you, let's unpack that a little bit more. In terms of the stereotypes and the way you described Lori on the one hand and Brian on the other, how is it different and what would you say is typically done and what should we be thinking about to do better? >> Well, it turns out that men and women leaders behave very similarly, that we describe their successes and failures very differently in language, based on stereotypes. So, for not thinking about what do I want to say and then instead, think about what I happen to say, we'll wind up describing them very differently for the exact same outcome. Some descriptions are more aligned with getting promoted and some are more aligned with kind of that helper, supporter-type person. And over time, you could start to see someone gaining an advantage, based on how we perceive them, not their actual contribution. So, one of our recommendations is to think strategically about language to prevent that kind of perception difference from being replicated in how we introduce people, how we describe them, how we talk about them. >> In terms of diversity programs, we were talking a little bit about this before the show started. Does it matter where you start? Do you start with thinking about being more inclusive of women or minorities or people of different sexual orientations? I mean, where do you start and does it matter? >> That's such a great question. It's something I grapple with all the time and in all my years of working in this field, my new line is, "There is no trickle down diversity." And what I mean by that is, by working on the kind of the broadest segment, for example, women, does not mean that Black women, Latino women, and Asian women will benefit for their fair share of these efforts and it might be harder to design for everyone, men of color, sexually diverse people, people with disabilities, but if we don't start there, it seems like we never get there. So, my new perspective is, we really have to start with the hard questions and in the end, whatever we develop will benefit far more people than starting somewhere and having them make up for the fact that we didn't include everybody equally in our programs. >> As the executive director of the Clayman Institute at Stanford, what do you make of what's happening right now in Uber, in Silicon Valley? We've seen so much really depressing, horrible news coming out and this is just a couple of years after the Ellen Pao lawsuit. Why aren't things better and what's your take? >> So, the mechanism of what's behind all the news today is the same. It's privilege. That someone's story is believed and someone's story is not believed and we act on the stories that more align with our cultural norms of expectation, high performance, and that perpetuates itself. And to tell you the truth, there are many days when I just can't look at the newsfeed, but then, I hope that every day I get a little bolder. I found I've spoken a little more strongly, I've pushed a little harder, I've tried not to be complacent myself, but more importantly, I'm trying to support the men and women who are trying to make a difference because we're all feeling a little bit beat down by some of the news and I think now, more than ever, we need to support the well-intentioned people who are trying to do good and know that it's a long view and we're in it for the long run, so let's not get distracted by anything but keep pushing forward, even down to making sure our daughters know that they matter, that if something happens to them, it matters, and that our sons, it matters that they're good men, that they grow up not to have locker talk. I think all of that matters. >> And are you working on anything in particular right now that is directly, I mean of course it directly, it all addresses it, but that really is about what you're hearing women's tales from Silicon Valley? >> You know, what's really exciting about being at an institute that's over 40 years old is that we have a range of topics that we work on and at the Clayman Institute, we've been working on breaking the culture of sexual assault for two years now and we're looking at what are the cultural configurations that enable these actions to be kind of, happen frequently and what can we do to address the culture in which assault and harassment happens. So, we've been studying things like how do you announce, how does a company make an announcement about their findings about sexual assault? Does it matter that you announce with a big statistic? Does it matter that you say these things are unacceptable? Or to just say it's part of, kind of every day life? So we're studying the language of these announcements. We're studying the frequency of them and it's something we've been working on for years because I think when you think about gender equality, it's complex and it's got a lot of dimensions and if we only go in one direction, we're going to miss something. So, I think it's always keeping your eye on all the barriers that women face from harassment to language, to promotions, to access and figuring out what are common ways that we can address and attack all of those issues and find workable solutions. >> What is your best advice to a, let's say a male executive in Silicon Valley who says, "Lori, I want my company to be different. "I want it to be a more welcoming, inclusive, "nurturing culture for everyone." What would you say to him? >> I would say, "Start with the assumption "that everything might have bias in it." Then-- >> Because we're human or-- >> Because we're human. >> Okay, okay. >> And just like software, you always assume there's something you can debug and you're looking for ways that it might be broken and we're often complacent about how people are treated in team meetings, how we hire, who gets promoted. And if we assume that there could be a bug in any one of those processes and we're vigilant about getting better and better over time at tracking them and proving them and then, getting ahead of 'em, that's where a company can take real traction. But the moment we become complacent, we actually open the door to more bias 'cause then we stop looking and the bias is always going to be there. >> But I like what you said too about assume that there's something you can debug. I mean, that's real software, but that's, (laughs) you're talking their language. >> Right, right, and I talk to a lot of male executives. Very well intended, who really want solutions, so part of my optimism is there are a lot of well intentioned people in all of these companies. Let's get them the tools and perspectives to be effective and I think we will continue to see positive momentum, even though the environment right now is a little hostile. I think keep driving forward with the long view, make your cultures as inclusive and safe for all your employees as possible, and take a good hard look at where there might be bias and let's not be afraid to tackle it together. >> And now, let's give advice to that young woman who's starting out at a company in Silicon Valley, who maybe is freshly graduated from college and has never experienced the workforce before. What would you say to her? >> I'd say, "You're awesome." And you know, there are challenges for everyone. Even CEOs get coached about their presence and everything else and there probably will be more barriers as a woman or a woman of color that you're going to have to get better at, but I'm like Gloria Steinem. I'm a hopeaholic. I believe we can all develop the skills. I think we should work together, break the barriers, and develop the skills. But in the end of the day, your voice matters and having you develop the future of technology matters so, let's work on that together. >> Lori MacKenzie, thank you so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for theCube. This is Women Transforming Technology. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back everyone to Cube's live coverage, VMware Explorer, 2022 formerly world. I've been saying now I gotta get that out. Dave, I've been sayingm world. It just kind of comes off the tongue when I'm tired, but you know, wall to wall coverage, again, back to back interviews all day two sets. This is a wrap up here with the analyst discussion. Got one more interview after this really getting the analyst's perspective around what we've been hearing and seeing, observing, and reporting on the cube. Again, two sets blue and green. We call them here on the show floor on Moscone west with the sessions upstairs, two floors of, of amazing content sessions, keynote across ed Moscone, north and south SBI here, cloud strategists with the cube. And of course, what event wouldn't be complete without SBE weighing in on the analysis. And, and, and I'm, you know, all kidding aside. I mean that because we've had great interactions around, you know, digging in you, you're like a roving analyst out there. And what's great about what you do is you're social. You're communicating, you're touching everybody out there, but you're also picking up the puzzle pieces. And we, you know, of course we recognize that cuz that's what we do, but you're out, we're on the set you're out on the floor and you know your stuff and, and you know, clouds. So how you, this is your wheelhouse. Great to see you. Good to >>See you. I'm good guys. Thank you. Thank you for having >>Me. So I mean, Dave and I were riffing going back earlier in this event and even before, during our super cloud event, we're reminded of the old OpenStack days. If you remember, Dave OpenStack was supposed to be the open source version of cloud. And that was a great ambition. And the cloud AATI at that time was very into it because it made a lot of sense. And the vision, all the infrastructure was code. Everything was lined up. Everything was religiously was on the table. Beautiful cloud future. Okay. 20 2009, 2010, where was Amazon? Then they just went off like a rocket ship. So cloud ended up becoming AWS in my opinion. Yeah. OpenStax then settled in, did some great things, but also spawns Kubernetes. Okay. So, you know, we've lived through thiss we've seen this movie. We were actually in the trenches on the front lines present at creation for cloud computing. >>Yeah. I was at Rackspace when the open stack was open sourced. I was there in, in the rooms and discussions and all that. I think OpenStack was given to the open source like prematurely. I usually like we left a toddler on the freeway. No, the toddler >>Got behind the wheel. Can't see over the dashboard. >>So we have learned over the years in last two decades, like we have seen the open source rise of open source and we have learned quite a few lessons. And one lesson we learned from there was like, don't let a project go out in the open, tell it mature enough with one vendor. So we did that prematurely with NASA, NASA and Rackspace gave the, the code from two companies to the open source community and then likes of IBM and HPE. No. Now HPE, they kind of hijacked the whole thing and then put a lot of developers on that. And then lot of us sort of second tier startup. >>But, but, but I remember not to interject, but at that time there wasn't a lot of pushback for letting them it wasn't like they infiltrated like a, the vendors always tried to worry about vendors coming in open source, but at that time was pretty people accepted them. And then it got off the rails. Then you remember the great API debate. You >>Called it a hail Mary to against AWS, which is, is what it was, what it was. >>It's true. Yeah. Ended up being right. But the, the battle started happening when you started seeing the network perimeters being discussed, you starting to see some of the, in the trenches really important conversations around how to make essentially cross cloud or super cloud work. And, and again, totally premature it continue. And, and what does that mean today? So, okay. Is VMware too early on their cross cloud? Are they, is multi-cloud ready? >>No >>For, and is it just vaporware? >>No, they're not too early, actually on, on, on, on that side they were premature to put that out there, but this is like very mature company, like in the ops area, you know, we have been using, we VMware stuff since 2000 early 2000. I, I was at commerce one when we started using it and yeah, it was for lab manager, you know, like, you know, put the labs >>Out desktop competition. >>Yeah, yeah. Kind of thing. So it, it matured pretty fast, but now it it's like for all these years they focused on the op site more. Right. And then the challenge now in the DevOps sort of driven culture, which is very hyped, to be honest with you, they have try and find a place for developers to plug in on the left side of the sort of whole systems, life cycle management sort of line, if you will. So I think that's a, that's a struggle for, for VMware. They have to figure that out. And they are like a tap Tansu application platform services. They, they have released a new version of that now. So they're trying to do that, but still they are from the sort of get ups to the, to the right, from that point to the right on the left side. They're lot more tooling to helpers use as we know, but they are very scattered kind of spend and scattered technology on the left side. VMware doesn't know how to tackle that. But I think, I think VMware should focus on the right side from the get ups to the right and then focus there. And then how in the multi-cloud cross cloud. >>Cause my sense is, they're saying, Hey, look, we're not gonna own the developers. I think they know that. And they think they're saying do develop in whatever world you want to develop in will embrace it. And then the ops guys, we, we got you covered, we got the standards, we have the consistency and you're our peeps. You tend then take it, you know, to, to the market. Is that not? I mean, it seems like a viable strategy. I >>Mean, look at if you're VMware Dave and start, you know, this where they are right now, the way they missed the cloud. And they had to reboot that with jazzy and, and, and Raghu to do the databases deal. It's essentially VMware hosted on AWS and clients love it cuz it's clarity. Okay. It's not vCloud air. So, so if you're them right now, you seeing yourself, wow. We could be the connective tissue between all clouds. We said this from day one, when Kubernetes was hitting in the scene, whoever can make this, the interoperability concept of inter clouding and connect clouds so that there could be spanning of applications and data. We didn't say data, but we said, you know, creating that nice environment of multiple clouds. Okay. And again, in concept, that sounds simple, but if you're VMware, you could own that abstraction layer. So do you own it or do you seed the base and let it become a defacto organization? Like a super layer, super pass layer and then participate in it? Or are you the middleware yourself? We heard AJ Patel say that. So, so they could be the middleware for at all. >>Aren't they? The infrastructure super cloud. I mean, that's what they're trying to be. >>Yeah. I think they're trying, trying to do that. It's it's I, I, I have said that many times VMware is bridged to the cloud, right? >>The sorry. Say bridge to >>The cloud. Yeah. Right. For, for enterprises, they have virtualized environments, mostly on VMware stacks. And another thing is I wanna mention touch on that is the number of certified professionals on VMware stack. There it's a huge number it's in tens of thousands. Right? So people who have got these certifications, they want to continue that sort of journey. They wanna leverage that. It's like, it's a Sunco if they don't use that going forward. And that was my question to, to during the press release yesterday, like are there new certifications coming into the, into the limelight? I, I think the VMware, if they're listening to me here somewhere, they will listen. I guess they should introduce a, a cross cloud certification for their stack because they want to be cross cloud or multi-cloud sort of vendor with one sort of single pane. So does actually Cisco and so do many others. But I think VMware is in a good spot. It's their market to lose. I, I, I call it when it comes to the multi-cloud for enterprise, especially for the legacy applications. >>Well, they're not, they have the enterprise they're super cloud enabler, Dave for the, for the enterprise, cuz they're not hyperscaler. Okay. They have all the enterprise customers who come here, we see them, we speak to them. We know them will mingle, but >>They have really good relationships with all the >>Hyperscale. And so those, those guys need a way to the cloud in a way that's cloud operation though. So, so if you say enterprises need their own super cloud, I would say VMware might wanna raise their hands saying we're the vendor to provide that. Yes, totally. And then that's the middleware role. So middleware isn't your classic stack middleware it's middle tissue. So you got, it's not a stack model anymore. It's completely different. >>Maybe, maybe my, my it's >>Not a stack >>Industry. Maybe my industry super cloud is too aspirational, but so let's assume for a second. You're not gonna have everybody doing their own clouds, like Goldman Sachs and, and capital one, even though we're seeing some evidence of that, even in that case, connecting my on-prem to the cloud and modernizing my application stack and, and having some kind of consistency between your on-prem and it's just call it hybrid, like real hybrid, true hybrid. They should dominate that. I mean, who is who, if it's not it's VMware and it's what red hat who else? >>I think red hat wants it too. >>Yeah. Well, red hat and red, hat's doing it with IBM consulting and they gotta be, they have great advantage there for all the banks. Awesome. But what, what about the other 500,000 customers that are >>Out there? If VMware could do what they did with the hypervisor, with virtualization and create the new thing for super cloud, AKA connecting clouds together. That's a, that's a holy grail move right >>There. But what about this PA layer? This Tansu and area which somebody on Twitter, there was a little SNAR come that's V realized just renamed, which is not. I mean, it's, it's from talking to Raghu unless he's just totally BSing us, which I don't think he is. That's not who he is. It's this new federated architecture and it's this, their super PAs layer and, and, and it's purpose built for what they're trying to do across clouds. This is your wheelhouse. What, what do you make of that? >>I think Tansu is a great effort. They have put in lot of other older products under that one umbrella Tansu is not a product actually confuses the heck out of the market. That it's not a product. It's a set of other products put under one umbrella. Now they have created another umbrella term with the newer sort of, >>So really is some yeah. >>Two >>Umbrella on there. So it's what it's pivotal. It's vRealize it's >>Yeah. We realize pivotal and, and, and older stack, actually they have some open source components in there. So, >>So they claim that this ragus claim, it's this new architecture, this new federated architecture graph database, low latency, real time ingestion. Well, >>AJ, AJ that's AJ's department, >>It sounded good. I mean, this is that >>Actually I think the newer, newer stuff, what they announced, that's very promising because it seems like they're building something from scratch. So, >>And it won't be, it won't be hardened for, but, but >>It won't be hardened for, but, >>But those, but they have a track record delivering. I mean, they gotta say that about yeah. >>They're engineering focus company. They have engineering culture. They're their software engineers are top. Not top not, >>Yes. >>What? >>Yeah. It's all relatives. If they, if the VMware stays the way they are. Well, >>Yeah, >>We'll get to that a second. What >>Do you mean? What are you talking >>About? They don't get gutted >>The elephant in the room if they don't get gutted and then, then we'll see it happens there. But right now I love, we love VMware. We've been covering them for 12 years and we've seen the trials, not without their own issues to work on. I mean, everyone needs to work on stuff, but you know, world class, they're very proud of their innovation, but I wanna ask you, what was your observations walking around the floor, talking to people? What was the sense of the messaging? Is it real in their minds? Are they leaning in, are they like enthused? Are they nervous, apprehensive? How would you categorize the attitude of the folks here that you've talked to or observed? >>Yeah. It at the individual product level, like the people are very confident what they're building, what they're delivering, but when it comes to the telling a cohesive story, if you go to all the VMware booth there, like it's hard to find anybody who can tell what, what are all the services under tens and how they are interconnected and what facilities they provide or they can't. They, I mean, most of the people who are there, they can are walking through the economic side of things, like how it will help you save money or, or how the TCR ROI will improve. They are very focused on because of the nature of the company, right. They're very focused on the technology only. So I think that that's the, that's what I learned. And another sort of gripe or negative I have about VMware is that they have their product portfolio is so vast and they are even spreading more thinly. And they're forced to go to the left towards developers because of the sheer force of hyperscalers. On one side on the, on the right side, they are forced to work with hyperscalers to do more like ops related improvements. They didn't mention AI or, or data. >>Yeah. Data storage management. >>That that was weak. That's true. During the, the keynote as well. >>And they didn't mention security and their security story, strong >>Security. I think they mentioned it briefly very briefly, very briefly. But I think their SCO story is good actually, but no is they didn't mention it properly, I guess. >>Yeah. There wasn't prominent in the keynote. It was, you know, and again, I understand why data wasn't P I, they wanted to say about data, >>Didn't make room for the developer story. I think this was very much a theatrical maneuver for Hawk and the employee morale and the ecosystem morale, Dave, then it had to do with the nuts bolt of security. They can come back to get that security. In my opinion, you know, I, I don't think that was as bad of a call as bearing the vSphere, giving more demos, which they did do later. But the keynote I thought was, was well done as targeted for all the negative sentiment around Broadcom and Broadcom had this, the acquisition agreement that they're, they are doing, they agree >>Was well done. I mean, >>You know, if I VMware, I would've done the same thing, look at this is a bright future. We're given that we're look at what we got. If you got this, it's on you. >>And I agree with you, but the, the, again, I don't, I don't see how you can't make security front and center. When it is the number one issue for CIOs, CSOs, CSOs boards or directors, they just, it was a miss. They missed it. Yeah. Okay. And they said, oh, well, there's only so much time, but, and they had to put the application development focus on there. I get that. But >>Another thing is, I think just keynote is just one sort of thing. One moment in this whole sort of continuous period, right. They, I think they need to have that narrative, like messaging done periodically, just like Amazon does, you know, like frequent events tapping into the practitioners on regional basis. They have to do that. Maybe it's a funding issue. Maybe it is some weakness on the, no, >>I think they planning, I talked to, we talked to the CMO and she said, Explorer is gonna be a road show. They're gonna go international with, it's gonna take a global, they're gonna have a lot of wood behind the arrow. They're gonna spend a lot of money on Explorer is what, they're, what we're seeing. And that's a good thing. You got a new brand, you gotta build it. >>You know, I would've done, I would've had, I would've had a shorter keynote on day one and doing, and then I would've done like a security day, day two. I would've dedicated the whole morning, day two keynote to security cuz their stories I think is that strong? >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And I don't know the developers side of things. I think it's hard for VMware to go too much to the left. The spend on the left is very scattered. You know, if you notice the tools, developers change their tools on freaking monthly basis, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to sustain that they on the very left side and the, the, the >>It's hard for companies like VMware to your point. And then this came up in super cloud and ins Rayme mentioned that developers drive everything, the patterns, what they like and you know, the old cliche meet them where they are. You know, honestly, this is kind of what AJ says is the right they're doing. And it's the right strategy meeting that develops where they are means give them something that they like. They like self-service they like to try stuff. They like to, they don't like it. They'll throw it away. Look at the success that comes like data, dog companies like that have that kind of offering with freemium and self-service to, to continue the wins versus jamming the tooling down their throat and selling >>Totally self-serve infrastructure for the, in a way, you know, you said they missed cloud, which they did V cloud air. And then they thought of got it. Right. It kind of did the same thing with pivotal. Right. It was almost like they forced to take pivotal, you know, by pivotal, right. For 2 billion or whatever it was. All right. Do something with it. Okay. We're gonna try to do something with it and they try to go out and compete. And now they're saying, Hey, let's just open it up. Whatever they want to use, let 'em use it. So unlike and I said this yesterday, unlike snowflake has to attract developers to build on their unique platform. Okay. I think VMware's taken a different approach saying use whatever you want to use. We're gonna help the ops guys. And that, to me, a new op >>Very sensitive, >>The new ops, the new ops guys. Yes. Yes. >>I think another challenge on the right right. Is on, on the op site is like, if, if you are cloud native, you are a new company. You just, when you're a startup, you are cloud native, right. Then it's hard for VMware to convince them to, Hey, you know, come to us and use this. Right. It's very hard. It is. They're a good play for a while. At least they, they can prolong their life by innovating along the way because of the, the skills gravity, I call it of the developers and operators actually that's their, they, they have a loyal community they have and all that stuff. And by the way, the name change for the show. I think they're trying to get out of that sort of culty kind of nature of the, their communities that they force. The communities actually can force the companies, not to do certain things certain way. And I've seen that happening. And >>Well, I think, I think they're gonna learn and they already walked back their messaging. Not that they said anything overtly, but you know, the Lori, the CMO clarified this significantly, which was, they never said that they wanted to replace VM world. Although the name change implies that. And what they re amplified after the fact is that this is gonna be a continuation of the community. And so, you know, it's nuanced, they're splitting hairs, but that's, to me walking back the, you know, the, the loyalty and, and look at let's face it. Anytime you have a loyal community, you do anything of change. People are gonna be bitching and moaning. Yeah. >>But I mean, knew, worked, explore, >>Work. It wasn't bad at all. It was not a bad look. It wasn't disastrous call. Okay. Not at all. I'm critical of the name change at first, but the graphics are amazing. They did an exceptional job on the branding. They did, did an exceptional job on how they handled the new logo, the new name, the position they, and a lot of people >>Showed >>Up. Yeah. It worked >>A busy busier than all time >>It worked. And I think they, they threaded the needle, given everything they had going on. I thought the event team did an exceptional job here. I mean, just really impressive. So hats up to the event team at, at VMware pulling off now, did they make profit? I don't know. It doesn't matter, you know, again, so much going on with Broadcom, but here being in Moscone west, we see people coming down the stairs here, Dave's sessions, you know, lot of people, a lot of buzz on the content sold out sessions. So again, that's the ecosystem. The people giving the talks, you know, the people in the V brown bag, you know, got the, the V tug. They had their meeting, you know, this week here, >>Actually the, the, the red hat, the, the integration with the red hat is another highlight of, of, they announced that, that you can run that style >>OpenShift >>And red hats, not here, >>Red hat now here, but yeah, but, but, but >>It was more developers, more, you know, >>About time. I would say, why, why did it take so long? That should >>Have happened. All right. Final question. So what's the bottom line. Give us the summary. What's your take, what's your analysis of VMware explore the event, what they did, what it means, what it's gonna mean when the event's over, what's gonna happen. >>I think VMware with the VMware Explorer have bought the time with the messaging. You know, they have promised certain things with newer announcements and now it, it, it is up to them to deliver that in a very sort of fast manner and build more hooks into other sort of platforms. Right? So that is very important. You cannot just be closed system people. Don't like those systems. You have to be part of the ecosystem. And especially when you are sitting on top of the actually four or four or more public clouds, Alibaba cloud was, they were saying that they're the only VMware is only VMware based offering in mainland China on top of the Alibaba. And they, they can go to other ones as well. So I think, especially when they're sitting on top of other cloud providers, they have to build hooks into other platforms. And if they can build a marketplace of their own, that'll be even better. I think they, >>And they've got the ecosystem for it. I mean, you saw it last night. I mean, all the, all the parties were hopping. I mean, there was, there's >>A lot of buzz. I mean, I pressed, I pressed them Dave hard. I had my little, my zingers. I wanted to push the buttons on one question that was targeted towards the answer of, are they gonna try to do much more highly competitive maneuvering, you know, get that position in the middleware. Are they gonna be more aggressive with frontal competitiveness or are they gonna take the, the strategy of open collaborative and every single data point points to collaborative totally hit Culbert. I wanna do out in the open. We're not just not, we're not one company. So I think that's the right play. If they came out and said, we're gonna be this, you know? >>Yeah. The one, the last thing, actually, the, the one last little idea I'm putting out out there since I went to the Dell world, was that there's a economics of creation of software. There's economics of operations of software. And they are very good on the operation economics of operations side of things that when I say economics, it doesn't mean money only. It also means a productivity practitioner, growth. Everything is in there. So I think these vendors who are not hyperscalers, they have to distinguish these two things and realize that they're very good on the right side economics of operations. And, and that will go a long way. Actually. I think they muddy the waters by when DevOps, DevOps, and then it's >>Just, well, I think Dave, we always we've had moments in time over the past 12 years covering VMware's annual conference, formally world now floor, where there were moments of that's pat Gelsinger, spinal speech. Yeah. And I remember he was under a siege of being fired. Yeah. There was a point in time where it was touch and go, and then everything kind of came together. That was a moment. I think we're at a moment in time here with VMware Dave, where we're gonna see what Broadcom does, because I think what hop 10 and Broadcom saw this week was an EBI, a number on the table that they know they can probably get or squeeze. And then they saw a future value and net present value of future state that you could, you gotta roll back and do the analysis saying, okay, how much is it worth all this new stuff worth? Is that gonna contribute to the EBITDA number that they want on the number? So this is gonna be a very interesting test because VMware did it, an exceptional job of laying out that they got some jewels in the oven. You >>Think about how resilient this company has been. I mean, em, you know, EMC picked them up for a song. It was 640 million or whatever it was, you know, about the public. And then you, another epic moment you'll recall. This was when Joe Tuchi was like the mafia Don up on stage. And Michael Dell was there, John Chambers with all the ecosystem CEOs and there was Tucci. And then of course, Michael Dell ends up owning this whole thing, right? I mean, when John Chambers should have owned the whole thing, I mean, it's just, it's been incredible. And then Dell uses VMware as a piggy bank to restructure its balance sheet, to pay off the EMC debt and then sells the thing for $60 billion. And now it's like, okay, we're finally free of all this stuff. Okay. Now Broadcom's gonna buy you. And, >>And if Michael Dell keeps all in stock, he'll be the largest shareholder of Broadcom and own it off. >>Well, and that's probably, you know, that's a good question is, is it's gonna, it probably a very tax efficient transaction. If he takes all stock and then he can, you know, own against it. I mean, that's, that's, >>That's what a history we're gonna leave it there. Start be great to have you Dave great analysis. Okay. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, winding down after the short break.

(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to the "Supercloud 22." I'm John Furrier, host of "The Cube." This is the Cloud-erati panel, the distinguished experts who have been there from day one, watching the cloud grow, from building clouds, and all open source stuff as well. Just great stuff. Good friends of "The Cube," and great to introduce back on "The Cube," Adrian Cockcroft, formerly with Netflix, formerly AWS, retired, now commentating here in "The Cube," as well as other events. Great to see you back out there, Adrian. Lori MacVittie, Cloud Evangelist with F5, also wrote a great blog post on supercloud, as well as Dave Vellante as well, setting up the supercloud conversation, which we're going to get into, and Chris Hoff, who's the CTO and CSO of LastPass who's been building clouds, and we know him from "The Cube" before with security and cloud commentary. Welcome, all, back to "The Cube" and supercloud. >> Thanks, John. >> Hi. >> All right, Lori, we'll start with you to get things going. I want to try to sit back, as you guys are awesome experts, and involved from building, and in the trenches, on the front lines, and Adrian's coming out of retirement, but Lori, you wrote the post setting the table on supercloud. Let's start with you. What is supercloud? What is it evolving into? What is the north star, from your perspective? >> Well, I don't think there's a north star yet. I think that's one of the reasons I wrote it, because I had a clear picture of this in my mind, but over the past, I don't know, three, four years, I keep seeing, in research, my own and others', complexity, multi-cloud. "We can't manage it. They're all different. "We have trouble. What's going on? "We can't do anything right." And so digging into it, you start looking into, "Well, what do you mean by complexity?" Well, security. Migration, visibility, performance. The same old problems we've always had. And so, supercloud is a concept that is supposed to overlay all of the clouds and normalize it. That's really what we're talking about, is yet another abstraction layer that would provide some consistency that would allow you to do the same security and monitor things correctly. Cornell University actually put out a definition way back in 2016. And they said, "It's an architecture that enables migration "across different zones or providers," and I think that's important, "and provides interfaces to everything, "makes it consistent, and normalizes the network," basically brings it all together, but it also extends to private clouds. Sometimes we forget about that piece of it, and I think that's important in this, so that all your clouds look the same. So supercloud, big layer on top, makes everything wonderful. It's unicorns again. >> It's interesting. We had multiple perspectives. (mumbles) was like Snowflake, who built on top of AWS. Jerry Chan, who we heard from earlier today, Greylock Penn's "Castles in the Cloud" saying, "Hey, you can have a moat, "you can build an advantage and have differentiation," so startups are starting to build on clouds, that's the native cloud view, and then, of course, they get success and they go to all the other clouds 'cause they got customers in the ecosystem, but it seems that all the cloud players, Chris, you commented before we came on today, is that they're all fighting for the customer's workloads on their infrastructure. "Come bring your stuff over to here, "and we'll make it run better." And all your developers are going to be good. Is there a problem? I mean, or is this something else happening here? Is there a real problem? >> Well, I think the north star's over there, by the way, Lori. (laughing) >> Oh, there it is. >> Right there. The supercloud north star. So indeed I think there are opportunities. Whether you call them problems or not, John, I think is to be determined. Most companies have, especially if they're a large enterprise, whether or not they've got an investment in private cloud or not, have spent time really trying to optimize their engineering and workload placement on a single cloud. And that, regardless of your choice, as we take the big three, whether it's Amazon, Google, or Microsoft, each of them have their pros and cons for various types of workloads. And so you'll see a lot of folks optimizing for a particular cloud, and it takes a huge effort up and down the stack to just get a single cloud right. That doesn't take into consideration integrations with software as a service, instantiated, oftentimes, on top of infrastructure of the service that you need to supplement where the obstruction layer ends in infrastructure of the service. You've seen most IS players starting to now move up-chain, as we predicted years ago, to platform as a service, but platforms of various types. So I definitely see it as an opportunity. Previous employers have had multiple clouds, but they were very specifically optimized for the types of workloads, for example, in, let's say, AWS versus GCP, based on the need for different types and optimized compute platforms that each of those providers ran. We never, in that particular case, thought about necessarily running the same workloads across both clouds, because they had different pricing models, different security models, et cetera. And so the challenge is really coming down to the fact that, what is the cost benefit analysis of thinking about multi-cloud when you can potentially engineer the resiliency or redundancy, all the in-season "ilities" that you might need to factor into your deployments on a single cloud, if they are investing at the pace in which they are? So I think it's an opportunity, and it's one that continues to evolve, but this just reminds me, your comments remind me, of when we were talking about OpenStack versus AWS. "Oh, if there were only APIs that existed "that everybody could use," and you saw how that went. So I think that the challenge there is, what is the impetus for a singular cloud provider, any of the big three, deciding that they're going to abstract to a single abstraction layer and not be able to differentiate from the competitors? >> Yeah, and that differentiation's going to be big. I mean, assume that the clouds aren't going to stay still like AWS and just not stop innovating. We see the devs are doing great, Adrian, open source is bigger and better than ever, but now that's been commercialized into enterprise. It's an ops problem. So to Chris's point, the cost benefit analysis is interesting, because do companies have to spin up multiple operations teams, each with specialized training and tooling for the clouds that they're using, and does that open up a can of worms, or is that a good thing? I mean, can you design for this? I mean, is there an architecture or taxonomy that makes it work, or is it just the cart before the horse, the solution before the problem? >> Yeah, well, I think that if you look at any large vendor... Sorry, large customer, they've got a bit of everything already. If you're big enough, you've bought something from everybody at some point. So then you're trying to rationalize that, and trying to make it make sense. And I think there's two ways of looking at multi-cloud or supercloud, and one is that the... And practically, people go best of breed. They say, "Okay, I'm going to get my email "from Google or Microsoft. "I'm going to run my applications on AWS. "Maybe I'm going to do some AI machine learning on Google, "'cause those are the strengths of the platforms." So people tend to go where the strength is. So that's multi-cloud, 'cause you're using multiple clouds, and you still have to move data and make sure they're all working together. But then what Lori's talking about is trying to make them all look the same and trying to get all the security architectures to be the same and put this magical layer, this unicorn magical layer that, "Let's make them all look the same." And this is something that the CIOs have wanted for years, and they keep trying to buy it, and you can sell it, but the trouble is it's really hard to deliver. And I think, when I go back to some old friends of ours at Enstratius who had... And back in the early days of cloud, said, "Well, we'll just do an API that abstracts "all the cloud APIs into one layer." Enstratius ended up being sold to Dell a few years ago, and the problem they had was that... They didn't have any problem selling it. The problem they had was, a year later, when it came up for renewal, the developers all done end runs around it were ignoring it, and the CIOs weren't seeing usage. So you can sell it, but can you actually implement it and make it work well enough that it actually becomes part of your core architecture without, from an operations point of view, without having the developers going directly to their favorite APIs around them? And I'm not sure that you can really lock an organization down enough to get them onto a layer like that. So that's the way I see it. >> You just defined- >> You just defined shadow shadow IT. (laughing) That's pretty- (crosstalk) >> Shadow shadow IT, yeah. >> Yeah, shadow shadow it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this brings up the question, I mean, is there really a problem? I mean, I guess we'll just jump to it. What is supercloud? If you can have the magic outcome, what is it? Enstratius rendered in with automation? The security issues? Kubernetes is hot. What is the supercloud dream? I guess that's the question. >> I think it's got easier than it was five, 10 years ago. Kubernetes gives you a bunch of APIs that are common across lots of different areas, things like Snowflake or MongoDB Atlas. There are SaaS-based services, which are across multiple clouds from vendors that you've picked. So it's easier to build things which are more portable, but I still don't think it's easy to build this magic API that makes them all look the same. And I think that you're going to have leaky abstractions and security being... Getting the security right's going to be really much more complex than people think. >> What about specialty superclouds, Chris? What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think what Adrian is alluding to, those leaky abstractions, are interesting, especially from the security perspective, 'cause I think what you see is if you were to happen to be able to thin slice across a set of specific types of workloads, there is a high probability given today that, at least on two of the three major clouds, you could get SaaS providers that sit on those same infrastructure of the service clouds for you, string them together, and have a service that technically is abstracted enough from the things you care about to work on one, two, or three, maybe not all of them, but most SaaS providers in the security space, or identity space, data space, for example, coexist on at least Microsoft and AWS, if not all three, with Google. And so you could technically abstract a service to the point that you let that level of abstract... Like Lori said, no computer science problem could not be... So, no computer science problem can't be solved with more layers of abstraction or misdirection... Or redirection. And in that particular case, if you happen to pick the right vendors that run on all three clouds, you could possibly get close. But then what that really talks about is then, if you built your seven-layer dip model, then you really have specialty superclouds spanning across infrastructure of the service clouds. One for your identity apps, one for data and data layers, to normalize that, one for security, but at what cost? Because you're going to be charged not for that service as a whole, but based on compute resources, based on how these vendors charge across each cloud. So again, that cost-benefit ratio might start being something that is rather imposing from a budgetary perspective. >> Lori, weigh in on this, because the enterprise people love to solve complexity with more complexity. Here, we need to go the other way. It's a commodity. So there has to be a better way. >> I think I'm hearing two fundamental assumptions. One, that a supercloud would force the existing big three to implement some sort of equal API. Don't agree with that. There's no business case for that. There's no reason that could compel them to do that. Otherwise, we would've convinced them to do that, what? 10, 15 years ago when we said we need to be interoperable. So it's not going to happen there. They don't have a good reason to do that. There's no business justification for that. The other presumption, I think, is that we would... That it's more about the services, the differentiated services, that are offered by all of these particular providers, as opposed to treating the core IaaS as the commodity it is. It's compute, it's some storage, it's some networking. Look at that piece. Now, pull those together by... And it's not OpenStack. That's not the answer, it wasn't the answer, it's not the answer now, but something that can actually pull those together and abstract it at a different layer. So cloud providers don't have to change, 'cause they're not going to change, but if someone else were to build that architecture to say, "all right, I'm going to treat all of this compute "so you can run your workloads," as Chris pointed out, "in the best place possible. "And we'll help you do that "by being able to provide those cost benefit analysis, "'What's the best performance, what are you doing,' "And then provide that as a layer." So I think that's really where supercloud is going, 'cause I think that's what a lot of the market actually wants in terms of where they want to run their workloads, because we're seeing that they want to run workloads at the edge, "a lot closer to me," which is yet another factor that we have to consider, and how are you going to be moving individual workloads around? That's the holy grail. Let's move individual workloads to where they're the best performance, the security, cost optimized, and then one layer up. >> Yeah, I think so- >> John Considine, who ultimately ran CloudSwitch, that sold to Verizon, as well as Tom Gillis, who built Bracket, are both rolling in their graves, 'cause what you just described was exactly that. (Lori laughing) Well, they're not even dead yet, so I can't say they're rolling in their graves. Sorry, Tom. Sorry, John. >> Well, how do hyperscalers keep their advantage with all this? I mean, to that point. >> Native services and managed services on top of it. Look how many flavors of managed Kubernetes you have. So you have a choice. Roll your own, or go with a managed service, and then differentiate based on the ability to take away and simplify some of that complexity. Doesn't mean it's more secure necessarily, but I do think we're seeing opportunities where those guys are fighting tooth and nail to keep you on a singular cloud, even though, to Lori's point, I agree, I don't think it's about standardized APIs, 'cause I think that's never going to happen. I do think, though, that SaaS-y supercloud model that we were talking about, layering SaaS that happens to span all the three infrastructure of the service are probably more in line with what Lori was talking about. But I do think that portability of workload is given to you today within lots of ways. But again, how much do you manage, and how much performance do you give up by running additional abstraction layers? And how much security do you give up by having to roll your own and manage that? Because the whole point was, in many cases... Cloud is using other people's computers, so in many cases, I want to manage as little of it as I possibly can. >> I like this whole SaaS angle, because if you had the old days, you're on Amazon Web Services, hey, if you build a SaaS application that runs on Amazon, you're all great, you're born in the cloud, just like that generations of startups. Great. Now when you have this super pass layer, as Dave Vellante was riffing on his analysis, and Lori, you were getting into this pass layer that's kind of like SaaS-y, what's the SaaS equation look like? Because that, to me, sounds like a supercloud version of saying, "I have a workload that runs on all the clouds equally." I just don't think that's ever going to happen. I agree with you, Chris, on that one. But I do see that you can have an abstraction that says, "Hey, I don't really want to get in the weeds. "I don't want to spend a lot of ops time on this. "I just want it to run effectively, and magic happens," or, as you said, some layer there. How does that work? How do you see this super pass layer, if anything, enabling a different SaaS game? >> I think you hit on it there. The last like 10 or so years, we've been all focused on developers and developer productivity, and it's all about the developer experience, and it's got to be good for them, 'cause they're the kings. And I think the next 10 years are going to be very focused on operations, because once you start scaling out, it's not about developers. They can deliver fast or slow, it doesn't matter, but if you can't scale it out, then you've got a real problem. So I think that's an important part of it, is really, what is the ops experience, and what is the best way to get those costs down? And this would serve that purpose if it was done right, which, we can argue about whether that's possible or not, but I don't have to implement it, so I can say it's possible. >> Well, are we going to be getting into infrastructure as code moves into "everything is code," security, data, (laughs) applications is code? I mean, "blank" is code, fill in the blank. (Lori laughing) >> Yeah, we're seeing more of that with things like CDK and Pulumi, where you are actually coding up using a real language rather than the death by YAML or whatever. How much YAML can you take? But actually having a real language so you're not trying to do things in parsing languages. So I think that's an interesting trend. You're getting some interesting templates, and I like what... I mean, the counterexample is that if you just go deep on one vendor, then maybe you can go faster and it is simpler. And one of my favorite vendor... Favorite customers right now that I've been talking to is Liberty Mutual. Went very deep and serverless first on AWS. They're just doing everything there, and they're using CDK Patterns to do it, and they're going extremely fast. There's a book coming out called "The Value Flywheel" by Dave Anderson, it's coming out in a few months, to just detail what they're doing, but that's the counterargument. If you could pick one vendor, you can go faster, you can get that vendor to do more for you, and maybe get a bigger discount so you're not splitting your discounts across vendors. So that's one aspect of it. But I think, fundamentally, you're going to find the CIOs and the ops people generally don't like sitting on one vendor. And if that single vendor is a horizontal platform that's trying to make all the clouds look the same, now you're locked into whatever that platform was. You've still got a platform there. There's still something. So I think that's always going to be something that the CIOs want, but the developers are always going to just pick whatever the best tool for building the thing is. And a analogy here is that the developers are dating and getting married, and then the operations people are running the family and getting divorced. And all the bad parts of that cycle are in the divorce end of it. You're trying to get out of a vendor, there's lawyers, it's just a big mess. >> Who's the lawyer in this example? (crosstalk) >> Well... (laughing) >> Great example. (crosstalk) >> That's why ops people don't like lock-in, because they're the ones trying to unlock. They aren't the ones doing the lock-in. They're the ones unlocking, when developers, if you separate the two, are the ones who are going, picking, having the fun part of it, going, trying a new thing. So they're chasing a shiny object, and then the ops people are trying to untangle themselves from the remains of that shiny object a few years later. So- >> Aren't we- >> One way of fixing that is to push it all together and make it more DevOps-y. >> Yeah, that's right. >> But that's trying to put all the responsibilities in one place, like more continuous improvement, but... >> Chris, what's your reaction to that? Because you're- >> No, that's exactly what I was going to bring up, yeah, John. And 'cause we keep saying "devs," "dev," and "ops" and I've heard somewhere you can glue those two things together. Heck, you could even include "sec" in the middle of it, and "DevSecOps." So what's interesting about what Adrian's saying though, too, is I think this has a lot to do with how you structure your engineering teams and how you think about development versus operations and security. So I'm building out a team now that very much makes use of, thanks to my brilliant VP of Engineering, a "Team Topologies" approach, which is a very streamlined and product oriented way of thinking about, for example, in engineering, if you think about team structures, you might have people that build the front end, build the middle tier, and the back end, and then you have a product that needs to make use of all three components in some form. So just from getting stuff done, their ability then has to tie to three different groups, versus building a team that's streamlined that ends up having front end, middleware, and backend folks that understand and share standards but are able to uncork the velocity that's required to do that. So if you think about that, and not just from an engineering development perspective, but then you couple in operations as a foundational layer that services them with embedded capabilities, we're putting engineers and operations teams embedded in those streamlined teams so that they can run at the velocity that they need to, they can do continuous integration, they can do continuous deployment. And then we added CS, which is continuously secure, continuous security. So instead of having giant, centralized teams, we're thinking there's a core team, for example, a foundational team, that services platform, makes sure all the trains are running on time, that we're doing what we need to do foundationally to make the environments fully dev and operator and security people functional. But then ultimately, we don't have these big, monolithic teams that get into turf wars. So, to Adrian's point about, the operators don't like to be paned in, well, they actually have a say, ultimately, in how they architect, deploy, manage, plan, build, and operate those systems. But at the same point in time, we're all looking at that problem across those teams and go... Like if one streamline team says, "I really want to go run on Azure, "because I like their services better," the reality is the foundational team has a larger vote versus opinion on whether or not, functionally, we can satisfy all of the requirements of the other team. Now, they may make a fantastic business case and we play rock, paper, scissors, and we do that. Right now, that hasn't really happened. We look at the balance of AWS, we are picking SaaS-y, supercloud vendors that will, by the way, happen to run on three platforms, if we so choose to expand there. So we have a similar interface, similar capability, similar processes, but we've made the choice at LastPass to go all in on AWS currently, with respect to how we deliver our products, for all the reasons we just talked about. But I do think that operations model and how you build your teams is extremely important. >> Yeah, and to that point- >> And has the- (crosstalk) >> The vendors themselves need optionality to the customer, what you're saying. So, "I'm going to go fast, "but I need to have that optionality." I guess the question I have for you guys is, what is today's trade-off? So if the decision point today is... First of all, I love the go-fast model on one cloud. I think that's my favorite when I look at all this, and then with the option, knowing that I'm going to have the option to go to multiple clouds. But everybody wants lock-in on the vendor side. Is that scale, is that data advantage? I mean, so the lock-in's a good question, and then also the trade-offs. What do people have to do today to go on a supercloud journey to have an ideal architecture and taxonomy, and what's the right trade-offs today? >> I think that the- Sorry, just put a comment and then let Lori get a word in, but there's a lot of... A lot of the market here is you're building a product, and that product is a SaaS product, and it needs to run somewhere. And the customers that you're going to... To get the full market, you need to go across multiple suppliers, most people doing AWS and Azure, and then with Google occasionally for some people. But that, I think, has become the pattern that most of the large SaaS platforms that you'd want to build out of, 'cause that's the fast way of getting something that's going to be stable at scale, it's got functionality, you'd have to go invest in building it and running it. Those platforms are just multi-cloud platforms, they're running across them. So Snowflake, for example, has to figure out how to make their stuff work on more than one cloud. I mean, they started on one, but they're going across clouds. And I think that that is just the way it's going to be, because you're not going to get a broad enough view into the market, because there isn't a single... AWS doesn't have 100% of the market. It's maybe a bit more than them, but Azure has got a pretty solid set of markets where it is strong, and it's market by market. So in some areas, different people in some places in the world, and different vertical markets, you'll find different preferences. And if you want to be across all of them with your data product, or whatever your SaaS product is, you're just going to have to figure this out. So in some sense, the supercloud story plays best with those SaaS providers like the Snowflakes of this world, I think. >> Lori? >> Yeah, I think the SaaS product... Identity, whatever, you're going to have specialized. SaaS, superclouds. We already see that emerging. Identity is becoming like this big SaaS play that crosses all clouds. It's not just for one. So you get an evolution going on where, yes, I mean, every vendor who provides some kind of specific functionality is going to have to build out and be multi-cloud, as it were. It's got to work equally across them. And the challenge, then, for them is to make it simple for both operators and, if required, dev. And maybe that's the other lesson moving forward. You can build something that is heaven for ops, but if the developers won't use it, well, then you're not going to get it adopted. But if you make it heaven for the developers, the ops team may not be able to keep it secure, keep everything. So maybe we have to start focusing on both, make it friendly for both, at least. Maybe it won't be the perfect experience, but gee, at least make it usable for both sides of the equation so that everyone can actually work in concert, like Chris was saying. A more comprehensive, cohesive approach to delivery and deployment. >> All right, well, wrapping up here, I want to just get one final comment from you guys, if you don't mind. What does supercloud look like in five years? What's the Nirvana, what's the steady state of supercloud in five to 10 years? Or say 10 years, make it easier. (crosstalk) Five to 10 years. Chris, we'll start with you. >> Wow. >> Supercloud, what's it look like? >> Geez. A magic pane, a single pane of glass. (laughs) >> Yeah, I think- >> Single glass of pain. >> Yeah, a single glass of pain. Thank you. You stole my line. Well, not mine, but that's the one I was going to use. Yeah, I think what is really fascinating is ultimately, to answer that question, I would reflect on market consolidation and market dynamics that happens even in the SaaS space. So we will see SaaS companies combining in focal areas to be able to leverage the positions, let's say, in the identity space that somebody has built to provide a set of compelling services that help abstract that identity problem or that security problem or that instrumentation and observability problem. So take your favorite vendors today. I think what we'll end up seeing is more consolidation in SaaS offerings that run on top of infrastructure of the service offerings to where a supercloud might look like something I described before. You have the combination of your favorite interoperable identity, observability, security, orchestration platforms run across them. They're sold as a stack, whether it be co-branded by an enterprise vendor that sells all of that and manages it for you or not. But I do think that... You talked about, I think you said, "Is this an innovator's dilemma?" No, I think it's an integrator's dilemma, as it has always ultimately been. As soon as you get from Genesis to Bespoke Build to product to then commoditization, the cycle starts anew. And I think we've gotten past commoditization, and we're looking at niche areas. So I see just the evolution, not necessarily a revolution, of what we're dealing with today as we see more consolidation in the marketplace. >> Lori, what's your take? Five years, 10 years, what does supercloud look like? >> Part of me wants to take the pie in the sky unicorn approach. "No, it will be beautiful. "One button, and things will happen," but I've seen this cycle many times before, and that's not going to happen. And I think Chris has got it pretty close to what I see already evolving. Those different kinds of super services, basically. And that's really what we're talking about. We call them SaaS, but they're... X is a service. Everything is a service, and it's really a supercloud that can run anywhere, but it presents a different interface, because, well, it's easier. And I think that's where we're going to go, and that's just going to get more refined. And yes, a lot of consolidation, especially on the observability side, but that's also starting to consume the security side, which is really interesting to watch. So that could be a little different supercloud coming on there that's really focused on specific types of security, at least, that we'll layer across, and then we'll just hook them all together. It's an API first world, and it seems like that's going to be our standard for the next while of how we integrate everything. So superclouds or APIs. >> Awesome. Adrian... Adrian, take us home. >> Yeah, sure. >> What's your- I think, and just picking up on Lori's point that these are web services, meaning that you can just call them from anywhere, they don't have to run everything in one place, they can stitch it together, and that's really meant... It's somewhat composable. So in practice, people are going to be composable. Can they compose their applications on multiple platforms? But I think the interesting thing here is what the vendors do, and what I'm seeing is vendors running software on other vendors. So you have Google building platforms that, then, they will support on AWS and Azure and vice versa. You've got AWS's distro of Kubernetes, which they now give you as a distro so you can run it on another platform. So I think that trend's going to continue, and it's going to be, possibly, you pick, say, an AWS or a Google software stack, but you don't run it all on AWS, you run it in multiple places. Yeah, and then the other thing is the third tier, second, third tier vendors, like, I mean, what's IBM doing? I think in five years time, IBM is going to be a SaaS vendor running on the other clouds. I mean, they're already halfway there. To be a bit more controversial, I guess it's always fun to... Like I don't work for a corporate entity now. No one tells me what I can say. >> Bring it on. >> How long can Google keep losing a billion dollars a quarter? They've either got to figure out how to make money out of this thing, or they'll end up basically being a software stack on another cloud platform as their, likely, actual way they can make money on it. Because you've got to... And maybe Oracle, is that a viable cloud platform that... You've got to get to some level of viability. And I think the second, third tier of vendors in five, 10 years are going to be running on the primary platform. And I think, just the other final thing that's really driving this right now. If you try and place an order right now for a piece of equipment for your data center, key pieces of equipment are a year out. It's like trying to buy a new fridge from like Sub-Zero or something like that. And it's like, it's a year. You got to wait for these things. Any high quality piece of equipment. So you go to deploy in your data center, and it's like, "I can't get stuff in my data center. "Like, the key pieces I need, I can't deploy a whole system. "We didn't get bits and pieces of it." So people are going to be cobbling together, or they're going, "No, this is going to cloud, because the cloud vendors "have a much stronger supply chain to just be able "to give you the system you need. "They've got the capacity." So I think we're going to see some pandemic and supply chain induced forced cloud migrations, just because you can't build stuff anymore outside the- >> We got to accelerate supercloud, 'cause they have the supply. They are the chain. >> That's super smart. That's the benefit of going last. So I'm going to scoop in real quick. I can't believe we can call this "Web3 Supercloud," because none of us said "Web3." Don't forget DAO. (crosstalk) (indistinct) You have blockchain, blockchain superclouds. I mean, there's some very interesting distributed computing stuff there, but we'll have to do- >> (crosstalk) We're going to call that the "Cubeverse." The "Cubeverse" is coming. >> Oh, the "Cubeverse." All right. >> We will be... >> That's very meta. >> In the metaverse, Cubeverse soon. >> "Stupor cloud," perhaps. But anyway, great points, Adrian and Lori. Loved it. >> Chris, great to see you. Adrian, Lori, thanks for coming on. We've known each other for a long time. You guys are part of the cloud-erati, the group that has been in there from day one, and watched it evolve, and you get the scar tissue to prove it, and the experience. So thank you so much for sharing your commentary. We'll roll this up and make it open to everybody as additional content. We'll call this the "outtakes," the longer version. But really appreciate your time, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, we'll be back with more "Supercloud 22" right after this. (bright upbeat music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's day one coverage of HPE. Discover 22 live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Velante of a couple of guests from red hat. You may have seen some news yesterday. We're gonna be talking about that. Please. Welcome Ryan King, the senior director of hardware partner ecosystem, and Lori Fontine joins us as well. The senior director of global commercial partner ecosystem. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, >>Thank you so great to be back in person and nobody word has summit was just last month or so. That's right. Ryan. Talk about hybrid cloud. It's all the buzz. We've been talking a lot about it in the last hour and a half alone. What are some of the trends that, that red hat is seen with respect to hybrid cloud? >>Well, I, I mean, hybrid cloud of red hat has been a trend for quite some time. In fact, we were very early in setting our course towards hybrid cloud with our products and platforms. And that's been a key part of our strategy in terms of the number of transformations have been happening in the enterprise. And with HPE, we're super excited about, you know, we're hitting our stride with OpenShift. I've been working with OpenShift for the better part of my 10 years here at 12 years at red hat, 10 years with OpenShift. And we're very excited about seeing the pattern of going where customers want to build their cloud. It's very important that where, where the market is going. So we're seeing trends from the public cloud now go into edge and telco and 5g and really exceed, see them expanding their infrastructure footprint out to those use cases. And again, we see REL everywhere. So re has continued to expand as well. And then Ansible automation platform has also been a great means of kind of bringing together community for that last mile of automating your entire infrastructure. >>Well, the Lin, the functionality of Linux continues to improve OpenShift is everywhere. I mean, I remember at the red hat summit, I mean, well, we, we, we coined this term super cloud, which is this layer that floats, you know, on-prem took across clouds out to the edge we had Verizon on. They were talking about, you know, 5g developers and how they're developing using, you know, a combination of, of, of OpenShift. So guys have been really crushing it with, with OpenShift. I remember, gosh, I mean, we've been covering, you know, red hat summits for a long time now. And just to see that evolution is actually quite amazing. >>Yeah. It's actually really neat to see our CEOs align too. Right. So the messaging that we've had around hybrid cloud from red hat, like you said, we were kind of the pioneers, honestly, this we've been talking about hybrid cloud from the very beginning. We always knew that it wasn't gonna be public cloud or private cloud. We had to have, you know, hybrid. And, and it's interesting to see that Antonio, you know, took that on and wanted to say, we're gonna do everything as a service right. A few years ago. And, and the whole theme was around hybrid cloud and giving customers that choice. Right? So it's exciting for us to see all of that come together. And I actually worked for HP for like 17 and a half years. So it's really fun for me to be on this side now with red hat and see the messaging come together, the vision come together and just really being able to align and move forward on >>This tremendous amount of transformation in the last few years >>Alone. Oh my gosh, we >>Talk about, you know, customers need choice. They want choice, but you also talked about, we have to meet customers where they are. That seems the last few years to have accelerated, there is no more option for companies. You've gotta meet the customers where they are. >>Exactly. Yeah. And it's all about choice, like you said, and it, everybody's got, you know, their own way to do everything as far as consumption goes and we have to be available and spot on with it, you know, and be able to move quickly with these trends that we're seeing. And so it's great to be aligned. And >>From a partnership standpoint, I mean, you, you mentioned H HP 17 years. I mean, it was, it was a hard to follow company. You had, you had PCs over here, you had services, the kind of the old EDS business. Now there's such a focus absolutely. On this mission, absolutely. Of as a service. And, you know, obviously a key part of that is having optionality and bringing open source tooling into that. I mean, we heard about this in, in spades, at, at red hat summit, which is really interesting this year. It was a smaller VIP event in Boston. And I, and I loved it, you know, cuz it was really manageable. We had all the execs on and customers and partners. It was awesome. What's new since red hat summit. >>Well, I mean, I would say that obviously GreenLake and what we've announced this week is a big new thing for us, but really like we're just continuing on our pattern. We are. Now, if you look at the Q1 report from IBM, you'll see that the growth of the customer base for OpenShift that they reported just continues to go up into the right. You'll see that now, like AMIA is saying that we're like 47.8% of the containers market for the enterprise. You'll see that like we're now in 65% of the fortune 500 with OpenShift, 90% with red hat in general. So we've established our footprint. And when you establish your footprint and customers start taking you out to the edge, we're going into these 5g use cases, we're, we've got an incredible amount happening in the AI space, all these emerging areas of where people are building their cloud, like we're now going to that next level of saying, how do they want to consume it? >>So what's really important to me about that is, is so Omni data around 50% of the market is, is open shift. A people may not realize a lot of people use, you know, do Kubernetes for free, you know, Hey, we're doing Kubernetes, but they don't have that application development framework and all the recovery and all the, the tooling around it. And the reason why I think that's so important, Laurie is ecosystems wanna monetize. So people are paying for things that becomes more interesting and it actually starts to attract people just naturally. >>Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of ecosystem, I mean, that's the beauty of what we're doing with GreenLake too. We're taking on a building block approach. So we're really, it's kind of ISV as a service if you will. And you know, personally, I, this was my baby for the past couple years, trying to make sure that we took into consideration every partner use case, every customer use case. So we created an agreement that would make sense to be able to scale, but also to meet all the demands of our customers. And so the, the what's really exciting about this is now we have a chance to take this building block approach, scale it out to all types of partner types, right throughout the entire ecosystem and build offerings together. That is really exciting for us. And that's where we see the real potential here with GreenLake and with red hat, >>What's actually available inside a GreenLake. >>So we are starting with OpenShift. So OpenShift will be available in Q3 that will follow in Q4 with re and then after that Ansible. So we're, we're moving very quickly to bring our platforms into it and it's really our strategic platforms, but it's all based on customer demand. We know we're seeing amazing transformation of customers moving to Kubernetes. You said, you know, OpenShift is Kubernetes with useful additions to it and an ecosystem around it, right? So that transformation is also happening at the bare metal layer. So we're seeing people move into Kubernetes bare metal, which is an amazing growth market for us. >>Explain those useful additions if you would. So why shouldn't I just go out and, and get the free version of Kubernete? Why should I engage red hat and, and OpenShift? What do I get? >>So you get all the day, two management stuff, you get, we have a whole set of additional stuff you can purchase around it, OpenShift platform. Plus you can get our ACM, our advanced cluster management. So you wanna manage multiple clusters, right? You get the ACS, the security side of it. You can also get ODF. So you get storage built into it as well. And we've done all these integrations. You can manage the whole thing as a cluster or as multiple clusters with the whole enterprise support and the long term support that we provide for these things up to 10 years. So >>When you look at the early days lease of, of Kubernetes, it was really, the focus was on simplicity. You had other platforms that were actually doing more sophisticated cluster management. And the, the committers that in Kubernetes said, you know, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna keep it simple. And so that leave some holes and gaps and you know, they're starting to fill those, but what if, if correct me if I'm wrong, but what red hat has done is said, okay, we're gonna accelerate, you know, the, the, the closing of those gaps and stay ahead and actually offer incremental value. And that's why you're winning in the marketplace. >>Well, we're an open company, so we're still doing everything upstream and open source as we do, of course, sticking with, you know, the APIs and APIs to make this all work, both, you know, in terms of what the community's trying to drive, what we're trying to drive for our customers on their behalf. And then just where things are going from a technology basis, make it a lot of investment, >>But you have to, you have to make a red hat, has to make a choice as to where it puts its commitments. You can't spread yourself too thin, so you gotta pick your spots. And you've, you've proven that you're pretty adept at doing that. >>That just comes back to customer centricity, right. And just knowing where our customers need to take the platform. That's, >>That's easy to say, but it's, it's an art form. And a little bit of science. >>Remember these customers have experts that are deep in this space. So it's like, you know, those experts trust us with where they needed to go. And they trust us to help shepherd that and deliver that as a platform to them. So it's not like anybody tell us what you want, right? Like it's really about like, knowing what's the best way to do it. And working with the people that can help you understand how to apply that to their use case >>And within the customer environment, who are you working with? Who is that key constituent or constituents that are guiding red hat in this direction? >>Well, it's certainly infrastructure folks. So it's your, it's your standard folks that are looking at the, how do we lay down our infrastructure? How do we manage it? How do we grow it? It goes out to the application developers. They're trying to deliver this in a cloud native way. And we have new personas, you know, coming in with the AI practitioners, right? So we've announced at before summit at Invidia's event, their new offering called Invidia AI enterprise. And so that's them bringing in enterprise support for GPU, for Kuda and for a software stack above that to start offering some more support there. So they're certifying OpenShift, we're both certifying the servers that run underneath it, and then they're offering support for their stuff on top of it. And that's a whole new use case for us. >>And, you know, I should also mention that even though this paper use with the GreenLake is new for us, and we just had this big announcement, we have done GreenLake deals though. We've done numerous GreenLake deals with our annual subs, right? So I, so even though this is new to us, as far as, you know, monthly utilization and being able to do this cloud consumption this isn't new to us as two companies coming together, we've been doing GreenLake deals for the past couple years. It's just, now we have this cloud consumption availability, which is really gonna make this thing launch. So, >>So what have been some of the customer benefits so far, you've been doing it for a couple years. The announcement was yesterday, but there's obviously feed on the street going on. What are some of the, the big outcomes that you're seeing customers actually bring to reality? >>I think speed and agility, right? That's the biggest thing with, with our products, being able to have it everything predictable and being able to have it consumed one way, instead of having this fragmented customer experience, which is, you know, what we've seen in the past. So I think that's the biggest thing is speed agility and just, you know, a really good customer experience at this point. >>Go get it, please. >>I would say the customer experience is critical. Yes. That's one of the things that we know that in terms of, of patients wearing thin the last couple of years, people expect to have a really strong consumer experience regardless of what you're doing, regardless of what industry and so attention and mind on that is a differentiator in my opinion. >>Absolutely. Yeah. And we've gotta constantly keep our eye on that. I mean, that's, that's our north star, if you will. Right. So, and Lori, >>I know you've saying you're, you've done GreenLake deals in the past, but what feels different to me now in that it's actually coalescing some of the things that Alma Russo announced this morning, the platform on which, you know, ISV is a service. I think you, you called it. Yeah. You, it, it now seems like, you know, look a couple years ago, HP said, okay, this is the direction that we're going. Yeah. They weren't there at that time. And they're still not there. There's a lot of work to be, to be done. But now it's starting to form. You're seeing, you know, the pieces come together, the puzzle pieces that sort of substrate being laid out. And now you're hoping that we see the steep part of the S-curve and that's what customers I think are expecting. >>Right. And it's bringing that operating model to move to a monthly model so they can do pay as you go. Right. And that pairs up nicely with like the cloud native capabilities we're bringing to OpenShift and hybrid cloud in general. So it's, it just shows like we're already getting demand from customers. It's saying like, this is part of our model. Like we know a certain amount of infrastructure we wanna own, and we just wanna own it outright, but there's a lot that they want to have flexibility on. And so being able to add that portion to it is just, you know, gonna help us both. >>And you think about the critical aspects of, of the cloud operating model. It's obviously pay as you go it's, you know, massive scale it's ecosystem enablement, and also automation. I mean, that is, that is a key, what's your point of view on that? You guys with Ansible, you, you, you know, you go back to a couple years ago and it was, you know, there was this, there were a lot of other tooling, but now, I mean, Ansible is really taken off. Yeah. >>It's just, you know, Cinderella story, right? Like it really an amazing community driven thing where we just knew, we all know this, right. You have, when you get to the very last mile of doing infrastructure management, there's a variety of devices, there's variety, a variety of vendors. And then you have like the variety of skills of the people that have to figure out how to do automate all of this. And what Ansible did is it provided a common language across all of that. And so what we do with automation, our, an ible automation platform is we make it. So now teams can manage all of this together and they can share their playbooks and they can host that privately for all their enterprise stuff that they need to do. So it's just, you know, it fits our DNA so well to have something so community driven now with a really nice enterprise message wrapped around it. And it's playing out very well for where, you know, hybrid cloud. Right. Cause there's some more additional variety. You need to be able to manage, you know, across all of your different footprints, because really it's like, it's not just about flexibility and scale up scale down it's where do you need it to run at what time? Right. And that, that last leg Ansible plays a key role in that. >>And we actually, Ansible will be coming further down the, you know, the patch. I know we're gonna talk a little bit about what's available today versus what's available down the road, but yeah, we have that on the radar. So right outta the gate, we're working on OpenShift, obviously bare metal. And we see that happening in Q3 and then behind that as well in Q4 and then Ansible is gonna be right behind that. So that's kind of the order that, and there's other pieces, right? So our whole portfolio is basically available to HP right now. It's just making sure that we can operationalize everything and have the best experience >>All inside of GreenLake, >>All inside a GreenLake. Yeah. Pretty neat. Lori >>Question for you. You've been, you were with HP for a very long time. This is obviously the first discover in three years in person. Exactly. You know, three years ago, Antonio near stood on stage and said, we are going to buy 20, 22. And here we are deliver everything as a service, as a partner and as a former HP, what are you seeing at this discover 22? >>It's it's so interesting. I it's such a sea change if you will. Right. And having come from HPE, I actually led the software as a service organization for a while on the software side of things. And we thought that was like state of the art and cutting edge that was 10, 11, 12 years ago. Right. So to actually see this come to life, because we were all thinking really, everything is a service. How are you gonna do that? Like your entire portfolio is gonna be available. Like that is lofty. Right. And having worked at HP, I thought, wow, I don't, you know, I know things take time. And, but actually just even being around the showcase here and watching everything come to life is amazing. Cause I, I, you know, I, I was very positive about it, but at the same time, it's like that, that was a big goal three years. Right. And it's, I'm seeing it happen >>A big goal in two of those years during a pandemic. Right. So right. Talk about lofty. Oh my gosh. Quite a bit of accomplishments guys. Thank you so much for joining David me on the program talking about actually guys, this is great. What red hat and HPE are doing your power partnership, power ship. Is that a word? It is now your power. >>I like >>That with GreenLake. We appreciate that. We'll look forward to having you guys back on. >>Thank you so much, guys. >>All right. For our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante. We are at HPE discover 22 live from the show floor in Las Vegas. This is just day one of our cupboards stick around. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>> From The Cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Last year, we noted in a breaking analysis that the cloud ecosystem is innovating beyond the idea or notion of multi-cloud. We've said for years that multi-cloud is really not a strategy but rather a symptom of multi-vendor. And we coined this term supercloud to describe an abstraction layer that lives above the hyperscale infrastructure that hides the underlying complexities, the APIs, and the primitives of each of the respective clouds. It interconnects whether it's On-Prem, AWS, Azure, Google, stretching out to the edge and creates a value layer on top of that. So our vision is that supercloud is more than running an individual service in cloud native mode within an individual individual cloud rather it's this new layer that builds on top of the hyperscalers. And does things irrespective of location adds value and we'll get into that in more detail. Now it turns out that we weren't the only ones thinking about this, not surprisingly, the majority of the technology ecosystem has been working towards this vision in various forms, including some examples that actually don't try to hide the underlying primitives. And we'll talk about that, but give a consistent experience across the DevSecOps tool chain. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon, Cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to share some recent examples and direct quotes about supercloud from the many Cube guests that we've had on over the last several weeks and months. And we've been trying to test this concept of supercloud. Is it technically feasible? Is it business rational? Is there business case for it? And we'll also share some recent ETR data to put this into context with some of the players that we think are going after this opportunity and where they are in their supercloud build out. And as you can see I'm not in the studio, everybody's got COVID so the studios shut down temporarily but breaking analysis continues. So here we go. Now, first thing is we uncovered an article from earlier this year by Lori MacVittie, is entitled, Supercloud: The 22 Answer to Multi-Cloud Challenges. What a great title. Of course we love it. Now, what really interested us here is not just the title, but the notion that it really doesn't matter what it's called, who cares? Supercloud, distributed cloud, someone even called it Metacloud recently, and we'll get into that. But Lori is a technologist. She's a developer by background. She works at F-Five and she's partial to the supercloud definition that was put forth by Cornell. You can see it here. That's a cloud architecture that enables application migration as a service across different availability zones or cloud providers, et cetera. And that the supercloud provides interfaces to allocate, migrate and terminate resources... And can span all major public cloud providers as well as private clouds. Now, of course, we would take that as well to the edge. So sure. That sounds about right and provides further confirmation that something new is really happening out there. And that was our initial premise when we put this fourth last year. Now we want to dig deeper and hear from the many Cube guests that we've interviewed recently probing about this topic. We're going to start with Chuck Whitten. He's Dell's new Co-COO and most likely part of the Dell succession plan, many years down the road hopefully. He coined the phrase multi-cloud by default versus multi-cloud by design. And he provides a really good business perspective. He's not a deep technologist. We're going to hear from Chuck a couple of times today including one where John Furrier asks him about leveraging hyperscale CapEx. That's an important concept that's fundamental to supercloud. Now, Ashesh Badani heads products at Red Hat and he talks about what he calls Metacloud. Again, it doesn't matter to us what you call it but it's the ecosystem gathering and innovating and we're going to get his perspective. Now we have a couple of clips from Danny Allan. He is the CTO of Veeam. He's a deep technologist and super into the weeds, which we love. And he talks about how Veeam abstracts the cloud layer. Again, a concept that's fundamental to supercloud and he describes what a supercloud is to him. And we also bring with Danny the edge discussion to the conversation. Now the bottom line from Danny is we want to know is supercloud technically feasible? And is it a thing? And then we have Jeff Clarke. Jeff Clark is the Co-COO and Vice Chairman of Dell super experienced individual. He lays out his vision of supercloud and what John Furrier calls a business operating system. You're going to hear from John a couple times. And he, Jeff Clark has a dropped the mic moment, where he says, if we can do this X, we'll describe what X is, it's game over. Okay. So of course we wanted to then go to HPE, one of Dell's biggest competitors and Patrick Osborne is the vice president of the storage business unit at Hewlett Packet Enterprise. And so given Jeff Clarke's game over strategy, we want to understand how HPE sees supercloud. And the bottom line, according to Patrick Osborne is that it's real. So you'll hear from him. And now Raghu Raghuram is the CEO of VMware. He threw a curve ball at this supercloud concept. And he flat out says, no, we don't want to hide the underlying primitives. We want to give developers access to those. We want to create a consistent developer experience in that DevsSecOps tool chain and Kubernetes runtime environments, and connect all the elements in the application development stack. So that's a really interesting perspective that Raghu brings. And then we end on Itzik Reich. Itzik is a technologist and a technical team leader who's worked as a go between customers and product developers for a number of years. And we asked Itzik, is supercloud technically feasible and will it be a reality? So let's hear from these experts and you can decide for yourselves how real supercloud is today and where it is, run the sizzle >> Operative phrase is multi-cloud by default that's kind of the buzz from your keynote. What do you mean by that? >> Well, look, customers have woken up with multiple clouds, multiple public clouds, On-Premise clouds increasingly as the edge becomes much more a reality for customers clouds at the edge. And so that's what we mean by multi-cloud by default. It's not yet been designed strategically. I think our argument yesterday was, it can be and it should be. It is a very logical place for architecture to land because ultimately customers want the innovation across all of the hyperscale public clouds. They will see workloads and use cases where they want to maintain an On-Premise cloud, On-Premise clouds are not going away, I mentioned edge clouds, so it should be strategic. It's just not today. It doesn't work particularly well today. So when we say multi-cloud by default we mean that's the state of the world today. Our goal is to bring multi-cloud by design as you heard. >> Really great question, actually, since you and I talked, Dave, I've been spending some time noodling just over that. And you're right. There's probably some terminology, something that will get developed either by us or in collaboration with the industry. Where we sort of almost have the next almost like a Metacloud that we're working our way towards. >> So we manage both the snapshots and we convert it into the Veeam portable data format. And here's where the supercloud comes into play. Because if I can convert it into the Veeam portable data format, I can move that OS anywhere. I can move it from physical to virtual, to cloud, to another cloud, back to virtual, I can put it back on physical if I want to. It actually abstracts the cloud layer. There are things that we do when we go between cloud some use BIOS, some use UEFI, but we have the data in backup format, not snapshot format, that's theirs, but we have it in backup format that we can move around and abstract workloads across all of the infrastructure. >> And your catalog is control in control of that. Is that right? Am I thinking about that the right way? >> Yeah it is, 100%. And you know what's interesting about our catalog, Dave, the catalog is inside the backup. Yes. So here's, what's interesting about the edge, two things, on the edge you don't want to have any state, if you can help it. And so containers help with that You can have stateless environments, some persistent data storage But we not not only provide the portability in operating systems, we also do this for containers. And that's true. If you go to the cloud and you're using say EKS with relational database services RDS for the persistent data later, we can pick that up and move it to GKE or move it to OpenShift On-Premises. And so that's why I call this the supercloud, we have all of this data. Actually, I think you termed the term supercloud. >> Yeah. But thank you for... I mean, I'm looking for a confirmation from a technologist that it's technically feasible. >> It is technically feasible and you can do it today. >> You said also technology and business models are tied together and enabler. If you believe that then you have to believe that it's a business operating system that they want. They want to leverage whatever they can. And at the end of the day, they have to differentiate what they do. >> Well, that's exactly right. If I take that in what Dave was saying and I summarize it the following way, if we can take these cloud assets and capabilities, combine them in an orchestrated way to deliver a distributed platform, game over. >> We have a number of platforms that are providing whether it's compute or networking or storage, running those workloads that they plum up into the cloud they have an operational experience in the cloud and they now they have data services that are running in the cloud for us in GreenLake. So it's a reality, we have a number of platforms that support that. We're going to have a a set of big announcements coming up at HPE Discover. So we led with Electra and we have a block service. We have VM backup as a service and DR on top of that. So that's something that we're providing today. GreenLake has over, I think it's actually over 60 services right now that we're providing in the GreenLake platform itself. Everything from security, single sign on, customer IDs, everything. So it's real. We have the proofpoint for it. >> Yeah. So I want to clarify something that you said because this tends to be very commonly confused by customers. I use the word abstraction. And usually when people think of abstraction, they think it hides capabilities of the cloud providers. That's not what we are trying to do. In fact, that's the last thing we are trying to do. What we are trying to do is to provide a consistent developer experience regardless of where you want to build your application. So that you can use the cloud provider services if that's what you want to use. But the DevSecOp tool chain, the runtime environment which turns out to be Kubernetes and how you control the Kubernetes environment, how do you manage and secure and connect all of these things. Those are the places where we are adding the value. And so really the VMware value proposition is you can build on the cloud of your choice but providing these consistent elements, number one, you can make better use of us, your scarce developer or operator resources and expertise. And number two, you can move faster. And number three, you can just spend less as a result of this. So that's really what we are trying to do. We are not... So I just wanted to clarify the word abstraction. In terms of where are we? We are still, I would say, in the early stages. So if you look at what customers are trying to do, they're trying to build these greenfield applications. And there is an entire ecosystem emerging around Kubernetes. There is still, Kubernetes is not a developer platform. The developer experience on top of Kubernetes is highly inconsistent. And so those are some of the areas where we are introducing new innovations with our Tanzu Application Platform. And then if you take enterprise applications, what does it take to have enterprise applications running all the time be entirely secure, et cetera. >> Well, look, the multi-cloud by default today are isolated clouds. They don't work together. Your data is siloed. It's locked up and it is expensive to move and make sense of it. So I think the word you and I were batting around before, this is an interconnected tissue. That's what the world needs. They need the clouds to work together as a single platform. That's the problem that we're trying to solve. And you saw it in some of our announcements here that we're starting to make steps on that journey to make multi-cloud work together much simpler. >> It's interesting, you mentioned the hyperscalers and all that CapEx investments. Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of a cloud and build on the CapEx and then ultimately have the solutions machine learning as one area. You see some specialization with the clouds. But you start to see the rise of superclouds, Dave calls them, and that's where you can innovate on a cloud then go to the multiple clouds. Snowflakes is one, we see a lot of examples of supercloud... >> Project Alpine was another one. I mean, it's early, but it's its clearly where you're going. The technology is just starting to come around. I mean it's real. >> Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of all of the cloud innovation out there? >> Is that something that's, that supercloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective. >> I think it is. So for example Katie Gordon, which I believe you've interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect which is another project. That's exactly part of the it's rationale, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why are we doing? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers, using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the APEX console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them into tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So yes we are walking on all of those different aspects. >> Okay. Let's take a quick look at some of the ETR data. This is an X-Y graph. You've seen it a number of times on breaking analysis, it plots the net score or spending momentum on the Y-axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the ETR dataset on the X-axis, used to be called market share. I think that term was off putting to some people, but anyway it's an indicator of presence in the dataset. Now that red dotted line that's rarefied air where anything above that line is considered highly elevated. Now you can see we've plotted Azure and AWS in the upper right. GCP is in there and Kubernetes. We've done that as reference points. They're not necessarily building supercloud platforms. We'll see if they ever want to do so. And Kubernetes of course not a company, but we put 'em in there for context. And we've cherry picked a few players that we believe are building out or are important for supercloud build out. Let's start with Snowflake. We've talked a lot about this company. You can see they're highly elevated on the vertical axis. We see the data cloud as a supercloud in the making. You've got pure storage in there. They made the public, the early part of its supercloud journey at Accelerate 2019 when it unveiled a hybrid block storage service inside of AWS, it connects its On-Prem to AWS and creates that singular experience for pure customers. We see Hashi, HashiCorp as an enabling infrastructure, as code. So they're enabling infrastructure as code across different clouds and different locations. You see Nutanix. They're embarking on their multi-cloud strategy but it's doing so in a way that we think is supercloud, like now. Now Veeam, we were just at VeeamON. And this company has tied Dell for the number one revenue player in data protection. That's according to IDC. And we don't think it won't be long before it holds that position alone at the top as it's growing faster than in Dell in the space. We'll see, Dell is kind of waking up a little bit and putting more resource on that. But Veeam, they're a pure play vendor in data protection. And you heard their CTO, Danny Allan's view on Supercloud, they're doing it today. And we heard extensive comments as well from Dell that's clearly where they're headed, project Alpine was an early example from Dell technologies world of Supercloud in our view. And HPE with GreenLake. Finally beginning to talk about that cross cloud experience. I think it in initially HPE has been more focused on the private cloud, we'll continue to probe. We'll be at HPE discover later on the spring, actually end of June. And we'll continue to probe to see what HPE is doing specifically with GreenLake. Now, finally, Cisco, we put them on the chart. We don't have direct quotes from recent shows and events but this data really shows you the size of Cisco's footprint within the ETR data set that's on the X-axis. Now the cut of this ETR data includes all sectors across the ETR taxonomy which is not something that we commonly show but you can see the magnitude of Cisco's presence. It's impressive. Now, they had better, Cisco that is, had better be building out a supercloud in our view or they're going to be left behind. And I'm quite certain that they're actually going to do so. So we have a lot of evidence that we're putting forth here and seeing in the marketplace what we said last year, the ecosystem is take taking shape, supercloud is forming and becoming a thing. And really in our view, is the future of cloud. But there are always risks to these predictive scenarios and we want to acknowledge those. So first, look, we could end up with a bunch of bespoke superclouds. Now one supercloud is better than three separate cloud native services that do fundamentally the same thing from the same vendor. One for AWS, one for GCP and one for Azure. So maybe that's not all that bad. But to point number two, we hope there evolves a set of open standards for self-service infrastructure, federated governance, and data sharing that will evolve as a horizontal layer versus a set of proprietary vendor specific tools. Now, maybe a company like Veeam will provide that as a data management layer or some of Veeam's competitors or maybe it'll emerge again as open source. As well, and this next point, we see the potential for edge disruptions, changing the economics of the data center. Edge in fact could evolve on its own, independent of the cloud. In fact, David Floria sees the edge somewhat differently from Danny Allan. Floria says he sees a requirement for distributed stateful environments that are ephemeral where recovery is built in. And I said, David, stateful? Ephemeral? Stateful ephemeral? Isn't that an oxymoron? And he responded that, look, if it's not ephemeral the costs are going to be prohibitive. He said the biggest mistake the companies could make is thinking that the edge is simply an extension of their current cloud strategies. We're seeing that a lot. Dell largely talks about the edge as retail. Now, and Telco is a little bit different, but back to Floria's comments, he feels companies have to completely reimagine an integrated file and recovery system which is much more data efficient. And he believes that the technology will evolve with massive volumes and eventually seep into enterprise cloud and distributed data centers with better economics. In other words, as David Michelle recently wrote, we're about 15 years into the most recent cloud cycle and history shows that every 15 years or so, something new comes along that is a blind spot and highly disruptive to existing leaders. So number four here is really important. Remember, in 2007 before AWS introduced the modern cloud, IBM outpost, sorry, IBM outspent Amazon and Google and RND and CapEx and was really comparable to Microsoft. But instead of inventing cloud, IBM spent hundreds of billions of dollars on stock buybacks and dividends. And so our view is that innovation rewards leaders. And while it's not without risks, it's what powers the technology industry it always has and likely always will. So we'll be watching that very closely, how companies choose to spend their free cash flow. Okay. That's it for now. Thanks for watching this episode of The Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks to Stephanie Chan who does some of the background research? Alex Morrison is on production and is going to compile all this stuff. Thank you, Alex. We're all remote this week. Kristen Nicole and Cheryl Knight do Cube distribution and social distribution and get the word out, so thank you. Robert Hof is our editor in chief. Don't forget the checkout etr.ai for all the survey action. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can check out all the breaking analysis podcasts. All you can do is search breaking analysis podcast so you can pop in the headphones and listen while you're on a walk. You can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. If you want to get in touch or DM me at DVellante, you can always hit me up into a comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante. Thank you for watching this episode of break analysis, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the >>cube >>With digital coverage of IBM think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think Virtual 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Got three great guests here talking about IBM cloud satellite and AI operations, Lori G O G M of Global SisQo Alliance, Matthew, Engelstad, IBM partner. Lead client partner for Canada financial services and cooper on Kent Asami VP of personal insurance. That economical insurance folks. Thanks for coming on the cube. This great panel on cloud satellite and Ai Ops. Thanks for joining me. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you john. Good to see you. >>Well, first let's start with you. There's a general manager for the IBM Cisco Strategic Partnership. Tell us more about the relationship as cloud has become hybrid. It's pretty much determined that's the standard and multi clouds right around the corner. The program ability of the infrastructure is critical and so obviously you can see the modern applications are doing that take us through the IBM Cisco strategic partnership. >>Mhm. Absolutely. So john as you know, and we've talked in the past, it's a 25 year relationship between IBM and Cisco longstanding. Now if you look at Cisco in the past, they've really been known as a networking and hardware company, but with the evolution of Cisco and how they're changing, they're really switching to be more around supporting technology and in the services and software areas. With that change coupled with Kendrell, our spin off of what we were previously calling Newco, we have an opportunity now to refocus all of the work that we're doing as IBM and Cisco going forward. You couple that with the red hat acquisition that we did almost two years ago, we've got a three way partnership here that's really bringing a lot of value to the marketplace. Now, when you look at that from a hybrid cloud perspective, we announced our satellite product which is built on top of Cisco technology with IBM in that as well. And then really taking the security elements of what Cisco does and bringing all this into the fold around that hybrid cloud solution. So we're super excited about this >>real quick. Why have you brought up a couple key points? I just want to get too. I know we're gonna get to it later, but the operating model has shifted, you mentioned with the new co and these relationships, ecosystem relationships and network effect, not just like packets, but like businesses and mps are critical. This new cloud operating model is really a center of of that. That that equation, how does that relate into all that? >>So, the, you know, these operating models and how we're going to market here is changing dramatically and you take what Cisco is doing and you know, we've got a client here with us Today programme who's going to talk about what they're doing with some of this technology. But really taking that at the core of how do you bring value at the client, what are they doing to get that hybrid cloud solution put into place And then what are all those surrounding elements around software managing the apps and things that we need? This is where IBM and Cisco coupled together. Really bring value >>cooper. You got teed up beautifully there so I want to go to you then go to Matthew after but okay, tell us more about this IBM. Cisco dynamic. You guys are hot growth company um doing very well and continuing to grow and sure, post pandemic. It's looking good too. So take us through why you decided to engage IBM and Cisco? >>Sure, sure john thank you. Um you know, to appreciate how we got here and why? We asked IBM and Cisco to help us. Let me first start by providing some background. Our journey started back in 2016 when we launched Sonnet and M. V. P. Uh Sonnet is a fully automated director customer digital channel where customers can quote and buy home and all of his online without the need to engage anyone at economical. Then in 2018, we launched by another m. v. p. Wine is our simplified self serve and digitized broker channel where broker partners can quote and buy home and auto insurance policies for their customers again, without the need to engage anyone at economical. Both uh some wine have won awards for innovation and both have been industry disruptors. You know, after launch we heightened our focus on enhancing business functionality and user experiences, given that we had started with MVPs, it made sense for us to put a lot of emphasis on enhancements initially. And you know, we maintained platform level monitoring capabilities at a macro macro level. We we and and the way we did the enhancement where we stood up agile pods, you know, focused on very specific business mandate. This approach delivered design results for our business. But as our excitement grew for our upcoming I. P. O. And our business started ramping up their growth plans. We needed to increase our focus on fine tuning key components which included enhancing our focus on stability and predictability for our sonnet and wine platforms. And we needed the ability to look deeper and get into the micro level so that we can monitor the pulse of uh you know, every component of our users journey uh across both solid and wine. And we need to help with this. And this is where we engage idea Francisco to help us through this journey >>on that vision real quick. How does the A. I. Fit in more on the automation side or on the upside? I mean I can imagine what that growth in the I. P. O. You're thinking automation I'm assuming. Can you elaborate quickly? >>Absolutely. So I mean if you think about it, it's a lot of data that we get like it's all digitized so we have a lot of data in there and this is where you know the ability to be able to actually mined that data and actually be taking proactive steps in terms of predicting having predictability and all that. That's where the Ai Ops comes in but that's part of our journey through this. >>Yeah that's good. I mean the theme here is transformation is the innovation at scale. Matthew, you lead the financial services division in Canada. What are you seeing as the hot topics uh with your clients and how are you responding? House IBM participating? >>Yeah, absolutely. And cooper and was touching on on this from economical perspective, they already have two leading digital solutions in market with Sonnet on the retail customer side in vine with their broker network. But what we're seeing even more so in the past year or so of the pandemic is a dramatic acceleration of that and then digital experience. So our clients and their customers are expecting digital native solutions that are contextually personalized, highly secure and always available or extremely resilient. Right? That obviously plays into IBM's capabilities and our joint capabilities with our partner ecosystem such as Cisco appdynamics around high hybrid, multi cloud and AI. >>So, if you don't mind if I don't mind following up on that app dynamics point, um can you tell me a little bit more about how that solution played out and how that involved? >>Yeah, absolutely. So first off this was based again on our longstanding relationship with Cisco appdynamics that laura was speaking about and then unique to what cooper and and economical was seeking. Of stitching together the data footprint across the infrastructure architecture. But leveraging data in a business context. And I think that is the unique value that app dynamics brings to this scenario here is a market leading solution that does bring together those multiple datasets, but contextual ISeS them in a business context. So you can understand from a user perspective that end to end journey right from initiation in the application all the way through the technical infrastructure and it becomes very preventative uh in terms of identifying and resolving potential issues before they even occur. >>So empty and this IBM services worked well together right there. That's your key point, right? That's >>absolutely. And that's the point is bringing to bear the best combination of, of solutions and services on behalf of our customers set. And this is where appdynamics and IBM uh, and our other partners work incredibly well together. >>We'll talk about the dynamics. Again, this is again, this highlights the point of the better together combination here with the Cisco relationship and the IBM evolution you mentioned, um what can other clients expect? I mean, this is gonna be the playbook. I mean you got the cloud satellite take us through what this means. What does all this mean? >>Yeah, absolutely. I'll start and maybe even laura can can add as as needed, but from an IBM perspective, absolutely. We're gonna work with our partner ecosystem um in the hybrid, multi cloud world. So uh we've really evolved whether it's IBM cloud aws as some of our clients, including economical and others Microsoft, Azure, um google. Uh It is about bringing those together regardless of strategic decisions made on cloud platform, but understanding how the applications play together and again, stitching together the data across those applications sets to drive value out of it. Uh This is where we're really seeing the evolution of IBM in our partner ecosystem and the evolution of IBM services as well. Awesome. >>Yeah. And if you really look at what Cisco is trying to do, um they've declared they're going to be in this hybrid cloud space. They bring elements to the solution. When you look at networking we look at some of the security and then when we start looking at how this combines with edge technology, we really start getting combinations between the IBM technology, the Cisco technology and how that completes a picture in a solution for a client. >>I love the end to end story, actually hybrids, distributed computer in my mind and now you've got multi club, it's just subsystems and all gonna have to be operated together and the software all makes that happen. I could see tons of headroom opportunity there cooper and talk about what you guys are seeing as results now because this is where you start to see uh the conversation shift too. It's not just go to the cloud anymore, it's make the cloud operational on all environments. That's really people want to see, can you share what you're seeing as a result? And where do you go from there? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um you know what's awesome about all of this is first of all, in a very short time, the team which really was composed of a cross functional and the highly collaborative group of people, uh they've already delivered some key pieces that are giving us line aside into what's going on for our business solution and you know, the implemented uh scope is already detecting symptoms and allowing us to be very proactive and it is also helping us to complete root cause analysis faster, helping us reduce defect linkage through a quality assurance practices. So, you know, for us, as I mentioned earlier, this is a journey like, you know, unlike traditional approaches where um implementations are driven by predetermined scope, we are changing the mindset specifically because we're using a lot of telemetry and continuous discovery in helping transform how our platform is important. You know, it has become part of our philosophy where business and technology are now working closer together and our vision is to navigate yeah continuously towards having a highly automated monitoring solution that leverages cognitive insights and intelligence. So you know to be able to have a robust self healing capability and this is where it kind of ties with the whole cloud capability because now you can actually enable the self self healing capabilities and with afghan um is bringing in the uh uh dynamic capture of issues happening and things like that. And if you kind of step back a bit and if you think of this approach, this is no different than how we envisioned and how we implemented both Summit and Wine where it was a fully digitized end to end solution that provides services and value for excuse me for our customers. Right? So hopefully that changes the picture. >>That's awesome. Great insight, Laura Matthew Gordon? Thanks for coming on the cube in the last minute that we have, let's go down the line laura Matthew cooper on. We'll start with you guys. What's the bottom line for IBM and Cisco relationship with the cloud satellite and a I guess what should people walk away with? What's the bumper sticker? What's the summary? >>So as IBM invest more and more in these strategic cloud hybrid cloud solutions industry focused, it's really bringing an industry focused solution to clients without us having to reinvent that every time. And as you heard from from Kobrin here, I mean we're bringing that value to our customers. >>All right Matthew, >>yeah, I just like to add and this is a great example here of being able to co innovate and collaborate with our partners and with our clients, economical in this case to evolve these solutions And as cooper and had stated, uh, this is the first step in a journey here and there's lots of exciting things to come, >>come on, take us home. Final word. >>Thank you. What I would say is what we've learned from. This is really uh, standing this up more like a garage style kind of situation where you can actually get something going rapid and you get business results and you start seeing RY very quickly. So that's the benefit. I've >>seen some great points. IBM and Cisco better together this ecosystem. The co creation, the new network effects is the new dynamic in the marketplace. This is the table stakes. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing the insight. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thanks a lot john >>Okay. IBM think 2021. I'm John for with the Cube. Thank you for watching. >>Mm

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. >>Welcome back to the cubes live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm Lisa Martin and I have with me a cube alumni back, please. Welcome Scott Mullins, the worldwide financial services business development leader at AWS. Scott. Welcome back. Great to have you joining us, >>Lisa. It's great to be back on the cube and to be visiting with you today from virtual re-invent 2020. >>Yes. Reinventing reinvent. The last show that I got to host in-person for the cube was reinvent last year. And here we have this three week virtual event that started last week. So lots more even going on. I think I even saw a hundred thousand or so registered, so massive event, lots of news. So walk us through some of the highlights that have been announced at reinvent this year and some of the things that you're seeing the most interest from customers in. >>Well, I think one of the big highlights is 500,000 registrants that are reinvented 50,000 attendees last year to reinvent or 50,000 or so to 500,000 re registered for the event. So that's, that's, that's worth talking about in its own. Right. But I think, you know, one of the things, and you mentioned this, you know, more re-invent three weeks, uh, this year, as opposed to the four days that we normally spend in Las Vegas together, physically, when you do, when you do it digitally, you have the ability to actually include more things and more leaders talking about things. And so when we think about the announcements that are having impacts, uh, with financial services customers specifically I'd point to a couple of things and, you know, they're obviously gonna mention Andy's keynote, but there's going to be some things that you might go wait a minute. >>I didn't even see that announcement. Uh, and then maybe I could point you and the viewers to some other, other, um, keynotes or some other sessions that were announced. So obviously I think, uh, first and foremost in Andy's keynote, uh, hybrid, uh, was something that was a very, uh, big focus for him and I for a very long time, we've had the messaging of the right tool for the right job when it comes to any of your services. I think you could alter that today to say it's the right tool for the right job at the right time and in the right place. That makes sense for you and especially for financial institutions. Um, you could look at the announcements around containers, the announcements around Amazon EKS, distro, Amazon EKS, anywhere, and then also Amazon ECS anywhere, which allows our customers to actually, uh, put AWS container technology anywhere they would like to put it. >>You could look also at the additions of the one you and two you form factors to outposts. So no longer do you have to do the, the, the large for you, uh, foreign factor for outposts, smaller outposts for smaller spaces, uh, that particular will play well in the financial service industry. You may not have necessarily as much room for a full cabinet. You could also look from the hybrid perspective in the announcement we made, um, around red hat OpenShift on AWS, all of are giving customers the ability to choose how they actually want to deploy, um, and pursue a hybrid. I'd also point to some announcements we made around management and governance in the financial services, industry governance, uh, is a very important topic. Uh, we announced the management and government lens for the AWS well architected, um, uh, program, uh, that is focused on breath practices for evolving governance for the cloud. >>It has recommended combination of AWS services integrations with our partner network and vetted reference architectures and guidance for addressing regulatory obligations as well. I'd also point to some things we made around audits. I was specifically in Steve Smith's, um, session today, he talked about AWS audit manager. That's a new tool for continually assessing areas and environments for controls or risk compliance. That includes prebuilt compliance frameworks for things like PCI DSS and GDPR, uh, two things that are very important in the financial services industry and last, but certainly not least I'd point to the announcement around the AWS audit Academy. This is training for auditors to actually be able to audit clouds from an agnostic perspective. Any cloud, not specifically AWS that's tree, uh, digital training to do that. And then also an instructor led course specifically on how to audit AWS. So some very key announcements, both from the standpoint of services, uh, as well as additional layers of helping customers in the financial services industry in regulated industries actually use our services. >>So typical, re-invent typical in a lot of news, a lot of announcements, the 500,000 Mark in terms of registering. I hadn't heard that. That's amazing. Let's talk that this has been an Andy. Jassy had an exclusive with John furrier just a couple of weeks ago before. I think it was last week, actually. And we've been talking about this acceleration of digital business transformation because of COVID we've been talking about it, the entire pandemic on the virtual cube, talking about how companies it's really about right now, surviving and thriving to be able to go forward and companies that haven't accelerated are probably in some trouble. Talk to me about how AWS has been working with your financial services customers to help them pivot and move to the cloud faster, really to not just help them survive now, but thrive in the long-term. >>Yeah. Immediately when COVID hit and it hit at different times in different, in different parts of the world. Immediately when COVID hit, we saw the conversation that we were having turning from, Hey, what's my digital strategy to immediately, what are my digital capabilities? And what that really means is what do I have the ability to do tomorrow? Because tomorrow is going to really matter. I don't have necessarily the time to plan for the next several quarters or the next several years, what can I do tomorrow to, um, really, uh, support my, my own workforce and support my own customers and the obligations I have as a financial institution. The first thing we saw people do was to try and make sure that those who financial services work can work. You can look at the adoption of Amazon workspaces, as well as our, uh, Amazon connect, uh, call centers as a service. >>As two examples there at the RBL bank in India was able to move to Amazon workspaces in just 10 days to enable its teams to actually work remotely from home. When they couldn't come into the office, you can look at Barclays. Barclays is actually a presenter at re-invent this year. They'll have a session on how they use Amazon connect, which again is our call center as a service offering to enable 25,000 contacts and our agents to work from home when they can no longer work out of the, out of their traditional contact center. The second thing we saw a financial institutions joining was making sure that customer engagements could still be meaningful when digital was the only option, um, specifically here in the U S you could look at the work that each of us did with FinTech companies like biz two X or fins Zack, or BlueVine Stripe and cabbage in support of the care act in the U S you might remember that the cares act, um, hasn't provisions for funding for small businesses. >>This small business administration had a program called the paycheck protection program, and those organizations were active in providing funding, uh, to small businesses. Uh, through that program. I'll give you an example of cabbage cabbage had previously not been an SBA lender, um, but they were able to, in two weeks build a fully automated system for small businesses to access PPP funding using Amazon text track, to extract information from documentation that those folks submitted to get alone. That reduced approval times from multiple days to about a median of four hours to actually get approval, to get funding through the PPP program. And then just four months cabbage became the second largest PPP lender. They lent over $7 billion in funding, which was twice the amount of funding that they went last year in 2019 loans. So we were happy to support organizations like cabbage and those other FinTech companies, as they help small businesses in the U S get access to funding, uh, during this critical time. >>And as we know, as you said, critical time, but really life or death for a lot of businesses. And as we continue to go through these ways, but it's interesting that you talked about that the speed of facilitation that during such unprecedented times, AWS and this massive machine was able to continue moving at full speed ahead and helping those customers to pivot. You talked about the cloud connect. I had a conversation with a guest on the queue last week about that. And, and I now think about if I have to call in a contact center and that person might be from home. So, you know, we're fortunate that the cloud computing technology and people like you and AWS, or are able to power that because it's, it's literally essential, which is probably one of the words of the year, but being able to keep the machinery going and innovate at the same time has been, make or break for a lot of businesses. >>Absolutely. And you, you look at, you know, kind of one of the last year is that I'll point to is, um, financial institutions. Uh, anti-virus, we're were very much focused on making sure that that cannot fail, that they scaled. And so you can look at the work we did with, uh, with the, with FINRA FINRA is the primary capital markets regulator here in the U S and on a daily basis frame or processes about 400 billion market events on every night to do surveillance on our markets, that when COVID hit, we had unprecedented volume and volatility in the market. And FINRA was, was, um, looking at processing, uh, anywhere from two to three times, their normal daily market volumes that's anywhere from 800 billion market events to 1.2 trillion a night. And if you look at how they were able to scale, they're actually able to scale up compute resources in AWS. We're on a nightly basis. They're able to automatically turn on and off up to a hundred thousand compute nodes in a single day. That automatic ability to scale is, is the power you're talking about. Being able to actually turn things up when you needed it and turn things down when you, when you don't need it based on the volumes. >>Well, and that's going to be something key going forward. As we know that there will be one thing I think that I always say we can count on right now is uncertainty and continued uncertainty, but we've also seen I'm calling them COVID catalysts. You know, the, what you talked about with cabbage, for example, and how that business pivoted quickly, because of the power of cloud computing and emerging technologies, what are some of the things that you think as we go into 2021 in the financial services arena, what are some of the big tech trends that you think were maybe born during COVID that are going to be critical going forward? >>Well, you know, you, you, you had Melanie Frank from capital one on cube a couple of days ago, and she was talking about, you know, their shift to cloud and what that's really enabled, and it, and she kind of sums it up nicely. She says, look, we want to give our customers experience that are real time, and that are intelligent. And you just can't do that with legacy technology. That's sitting in, you know, kind of a legacy data center. And so I think that's going to be kind of the, the, the all encompassing statement for what's happening in the financial services industry. As I mentioned, you know, organizations overnight said, okay, wait a minute, let's take that strategy. And then let's put it aside. Let's talk about capabilities. What can we do? And I think, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Um, and when you're faced with limitations and challenges, like we all have been faced with around the world and not just in the financial services industry, it, it breeds, um, invention and the, and the desire and the need to actually meet those challenges head on, in very engineered of ways. >>And I think you're going to see more invention and specifically more invention from the established players in the financial services industry. Cloud use is not just experimental on the edges anymore. You're going to see more organizations coming out of COVID. Um, having had those experiences where they actually stood up a context center and scaled it. And, and just a matter of a few days to, to thousands of agents, you're going to find, um, organizations saying, wait a minute, we, we can do remote work. We could, we have access to things like Amazon workspaces. So I think you're, you're gonna, you're going to see that, uh, be a, be a trend. I think you're also gonna see, um, w what Lori beer said in the keynote with Andy, you know, she, she made a very, very astute statement, and I don't know if people caught it, cause it's kind of neat in the middle of her conversation. >>She said, look, we're trying to infuse analytics into everything that we do at JP Morgan. I think you're going to see more and more financial institutions looking to do that, to actually leverage the power of analytics, to power everything we do as a financial institution. So I think those, those are a couple of things that you're going to see. Um, and then, you know, looking, uh, you know, kind of around the corner, I think you're going to continue to see more re-invention within the industry. And what I mean by that is you've seen many financial institutions over the last week, uh, with, uh, re-invent making announcements, you saw bank and we towel saying, Hey, look, we are completely transforming ourselves with AWS. Uh, just a few weeks before we even saw standard charter, the same thing HSBC said, the same thing, global payments earlier in the year said the same thing. And you're going to see more and more organizations coming out and talking about these strategic decisions to reinvent everything that they do to make the financial systems of the world work. And so we're really pleased to be partnering with those organizations to make those transformations possible. We're seeing a lot of invention within the industry, and we're very pleased to be a part of the reinvention of the financial systems around the world. >>It's interesting to hear that you, you see, even the JP Morgan, some of those legacy, big houses are going to be really pivoting. They have to, to be competitive and to be able to utilize analytics, to deliver those real-time services. Because as we all know, as consumers, our patients is wearing thin these days, but I agree with you. I think there's a lot of opportunity there that innovation is exciting and there will have to be reinvention of entire industries, but I think there's a lot of silver linings there. Scott. I wish we had more time, cause I know we could keep talking, but thank you for sharing your insights on this reinvented reinvent this year. >>I appreciate it. Thank you, Lisa. It's always a pleasure to be on the cube. >>Chris Scott Mullins, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020.

>>from Las Vegas. It's the cues covering quality security Conference 2019. Bike. Wallace. >>Hey, welcome back it. Ready? Geoffrey here with the Q worth the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas for the quality security conference. This thing's been going on for 19 years. I had no idea. It's our first time here, but it's pretty interesting out. Felipe and the team have evolved this security company over a lot of huge technological changes and security changes, and they're still clipping along, doing a lot of cool things in cloud and open source. We're excited of our next guest. She's Laurie McCarthy, the EVP of worldwide field >>operations. Lori, great to see you. >>Thanks. Glad to be here. >>Absolutely. So first off, congratulations in doing some homework for this. I was going through the earnings call. The last turning call, which A was a nice earnings call. You're making money buying back stock. Also, you were promoted or the announcement of your promotion on that call and really some nice, complimentary words from Philippe and the team about the work that you've done actually >>very grateful. Thank you. And >>one of the things we >>talked about, which is unique in your background as you came from a customer. Not It's always a day ago. These shows we have people that I came from customers that went to the vendor, and then we have people that rest of Endor and they went over to the customers. There's a lot of that kind of movement, but he really complimented your execution at CVS as a big reason why you got the promotion that you did. So again. Congrats. But let's talk about, you know, kind of the CVS experience from when you were running it. Not when you're on the quality side. Yeah, that the threats. And CBS is in class nationwide, all kinds of stuff. >>Yeah, well, I mean, you know, just like any other company that's in that health care vertical, you've got so many different things to think about. Additionally, we were also in the retail vertical, so we had a lot of compliance. E's to worry about p c p c i p. I s O. A lot of the programs had been very much, uh, checkbox driven prior to the team that moved in there, including myself, and kind of changed that. So I helped to rebuild the vulnerability program there. And we started to do it in such a way that it was for the sake of security, not just checking a box. And we were really innovated how they do things. A lot of my friends are still there, and they have their own stock now, and we kind of brought everything in house. So a lot of that was outsourced. >>So what was the catalyst to make the change To move from beyond simple compliance and check in the box, Actually making a strategic part of the execution? >>Yeah, at the time and a new sea so had been put into place. And it was someone with that vision, and I think that's what really drove it. I came in just after that and was brought in on the premise that this is what we're going to change and move toward. So I was part of that process from that >>point, right? It clearly, qualities was part of the solution. So what? What did you use calls for their and how is the solution changed? You know, kind of >>so back then when >>you want to call it, >>we're talking. In 9 4010 2011 Right around there. If you opened up the quality platform, you had three things to choose from. Versus today, when you log in, you've got 18 or more, depending. And S O CVS used a little bit of all of that with the mainstay having been the vulnerability management. So I ran to full vulnerability management programs there because we had to keep our pharmacy benefit company and our retail companies separate. So I sort of did double duty, >>Right? So what you doing now on field operations? >>So is the E V p of worldwide for Wallace. I'm running all of the technical account managers for our company way have a unique sales model here, so it's a little different. So everyone in the field to service is our clients rolls up to me, and then that also includes some additional teams, like our federal team, our strategic alliances team and also our subject matter experts >>today. So you said a couple >>times you guys have your account management structure is different than maybe traditional. Kind of >>walk through. Yeah, absolutely. So versus a traditional sales model. We have a salesperson. You have client service person. You have a technical, you know, social architect kind of person. We service our clients all with one person. We have a technical account manager. We break them up into two flavors. We have a presales who are very technical folks that go out and help us get our business. And then those accounts get handed over to our post sales, who are basically the farmers in our business, maintaining and growing our existing clients. What that allows for, which is really special, is we can go in and really build a relationship built on trust and understanding and strategy, because we bring people into our company like myself who have done this, who have sat on that side of the table. So you know, someone comes in and says What? You know, how would you like to buy one of my gizmos? It's a lot different conversation when it's like, Look at what I do with this gizmo like it's amazing. So it's It's kind of a similar feeling that you guys >>have your kind of platform with application strategy enables you to kind of do a land and expand, and in fact you even a something that people can try for free. >>Yeah, absolutely. So we review our model as, like, try and buy. So for both our non clients are freemium service is that we offer our, you know, out of this world for people being able to just log in without even being a client and start to evaluate their environment. And then when they see the value that we bring, it's very easy to translate that into a buy and then likewise, for our clients who sign up for a service or two enabling additional trials and having them work within our new service is as they're being rolled out, is very, very simple, the way our platform is built. So it's just it's a really effortless, very natural progression of business that we that we built. And it's one of the reasons that I work here because as a client, I really enjoyed my relationship with this company because it never felt like I was being sold anything. It always felt like I was being handed solutions to my challenges, and that's what we tried to do. And that's how I lead everyone today is Let's get out, Let's listen, let's strategize and let's see where we fit in with folks, right strategies for, you know, the coming >>future. So must be a team >>approach, though, right? Because one person you know to say, trying to manage the CVS account, that would be, >>Oh, so we have a little bit of a break out in our post side. We have what a new role that I helped get implemented here at the company, which is a major account solution architect they handle are bigger, more complex accounts. So as our platform has matured, so have our clients are bigger. Clients are using more of our platform. They're using it in a more expert way. So we had to answer that with the right kind of people who could speak to that expert level of usage and be able to finance that. So that's a little bit part of it. And on our bigger clients, we do have more of a team approach. We have a product management, a project management organization. The S M E team are subject matter. Experts roll up under me. They're experts in each of our solutions. So it's a sizeable team and they are liaise between product management, engineering our fields and our clients. And that's another support mechanism. And then our support at Wallace is also something that augments our technical account managers jobs on a daily basis. >>So new opportunity with a sure that was recently announced a bundle. Yeah, you're bundled in kind of under the covers, not not really under the covers. So a little bit about how that's gonna work from kind of an account management and and from your kind of point of view, >>So it's It's actually not gonna change much of anything on the way that we are. Mom are our model is a hybrid, right? So we have direct sales that we have indirect sales, even honor in direct sales through partners through relationships like we've just built with azure MSs peas and reach whatever. We still treat every end customer and every partner like a direct customer. So we work very hard to educate her partners, to work with them, to make sure they're successful with our clients. And we're also treating our clients who are through that avenue the same way. So it's it's just gonna blend right in with what we >>d'oh Yeah, that's great, but hopefully it's a sales channel and they get more than they just bought it under the covers and start implementing. >>It's easy for them to jump in with us. And then from there we can build those relationships with perhaps, you know, prospects and folks that aren't our clients now and be able to show them more things that we do. Besides just, you know, the one thing that they might be signing up for at that time, >>right? Right. Okay, great. I want to shift gears a little bit. >>We had windy by front earlier from from Nutanix. When he's a fantastic lady, yes, and she is super super involved in in girls Who Code and women in Tech and trying to drive that kind of forward along a number of parameters everything from the board to getting people jobs, training little girls to staying at staying in the industry. I know that's a big, passionate area of yours. I wonder if you could share some of the activities you guys were doing around women. I could think more specifically, and security is a subset of all tech, but share the some of the activities you have going on. >>So personally, I try to be very involved locally. Four Children. One of them is a daughter. She's too little, quite yet for getting into tact. I have two older sons and s so I try to be really involved in middle school high school. Hey, put me in, Coach, I'll come in and talk to the kids. Generating interest in getting into this field at a young age is what we need to do. They're still aren't enough gals and, honestly, guys heading into our business in college. So I I really take it upon myself as a security professional to try to promote that specifically around women. I'm really pleased that our company supports an organization which I've been a part of for a while, and that's the Executive Woman's Forum, and we sponsor their conference every year, and we sponsor events with them. I personally am part of their mentor program, so that allows me a channel. Thio have ah, unassigned person to work with, and I really enjoy that, and our company itself is just very excellent at promoting and enabling women within our organization. And it's another reason that I really loved working here for the past eight years, >>right? Well, from the top. Because the board, I think, is either for more than half. Yemen, which is certainly half >>women CEO, is very supportive. Our presidents, two men way have a great environment. Thio grow women professionally here in my company, >>right? That's great. So, ah, year from now, when we come back, what are we gonna be talking about? What's kind of on a road map? For the next year, >>we're going to be talking about our data leak efforts, or Sim. We're gonna be talking about our improved Edie, our capabilities that are really gonna put us in the position to be a major player in that market. Um, and who knows? We have such a quick turnaround of innovation here and what we do by the way we do our business. So starting with the technical account manager's boots on the ground with our clients, when we're there listening to all of their challenges, we're also taking that back, and that drives our innovation that the company so we hear what they need, and that's what we provide. So as things changed, we're going to continue to do that digital transformation, of course, is is making that something that we have to be even quicker about. And I think we're doing a good job >>keeping up well. 19 years and counting, making money. Find back, buying back shares to help everyone else's stock delusion. So not that, but nothing but good success. It's all right. Well, Laurie, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day. And again, congratulations on your promotion as well as a terrific event. >>Thank you very much. >>All right. She's Laurie. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube with the quality security conference at the Bellagio and lovely >>Las Vegas. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida It's the Cube covering Enterprise Connect. Twenty nineteen. Brought to you by five nine. >> Yeah, good afternoon. Welcome to Orlando, Florida The Cube is here at Enterprise Connect. Twenty ninety nine. Lisa Martin with my co host to Minuteman Stew and I have been Here's starting on Day two stew. Good afternoon, >> Lisa. Great to see Yeah. Day two of three. Enterprise Connect. >> It's not that sunny >> here in the Sunshine State, but the nice thing about the Gaylord is it's a nice controlled environment. Walk by. I saw the alligator for bid. They've got nice planning. They've got I love in the atrium there. There's great branding of thie E c. Nineteen. Everybody's taken photos of it. I saw some drone footage in the keynote this morning showing some of the setting here. So >> it's a It's a nice >> event way said sixty five hundred intended, which is nice. It's not one of these, you know, twenty thirty thousand. You're just buried by people toe big Expo Hall. But, you know, you could really get to talk to some people and enjoy the size of the show. >> Yeah, I agree. The size is great. It does no pun intended. Facilitate that collaboration and communication. You mentioned a number of attendees about one hundred forty vendors, and you can hear the noise behind soon. MIAs were in the ex ball in the booth of five nine and lots of conversations going on. This is an event that I find very interesting state because we talk about the contact center were all consumers every day. And we talked about this with a lot of our guests yesterday that the customer experience is absolutely table stakes for an organization, that it's essential to deliver an Omni Channel customer experience meeting with the consumer wherever they want to be and also facilitating a connected conversation so that if a shot is initiated and then the consumer goes to social or makes a phone call, that problem resolution is actually moving forward before we get into. Today's key knows a couple of really interesting things that you and I learned yesterday with some of the guests that we had on when we were talking with Blair Pleasant. One of the things that she and five nine uncovered with some research is that an employee's satisfaction was lower on the ratings for a lot of corporate decision makers, which was surprising from a collab and communications perspective that if employees, especially those agents on the front line, are having some challenges, it's going to be directly relating Tio customer Lifetime Value. >> Yeah, it was a little bit surprising, you know, if you think about just in general, you know, often the admin is not the key focus there. It's I need to get business outcomes. I need to get R. A Y. You know what I care about is, you know, how is my customer doing? But at the end of the day, you talk about the contact centers. If I don't have an agent that's engaged, really, how is that conversation going to go with the customer? So they need to think about that, You know? How will the technology help them do their job? Better help them game mastery faster? There were some things that I saw really parallel toe conversation we're having about cloud in general, which is, you know, there's lots of technologies out there, but it's often it's not the technology issue it is, you know, the organization and the people issue in the keynote this morning there was a big customer panel and that was definitely something we heard. I love one of the customers actually said We're going to make all these changes And they had the Don't panic towels, which, of course, harkens back to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy S O. You know, we know things are going to change. There might be some things you need to work through. But don't worry, we're there to help on. We will get through this and at the end, it should be better. >> No, I like that. You brought that up. I love that Tabal. Don't panic because, you know, we were talking yesterday a lot about the customer experience, the expectations of this rising, empowered consumer also the agent experience. But then, of course, there's the internal collaboration that's essential to all of this. And as I think, the gentleman that you're referring to was from Continental G talking about Hey, we don't have all the answers. But adoption of these tools internally is critical, but it's also a cultural sort of stepwise process. I thought that was very cool, that they actually were very transparent with their people. We identify this is not going to be smooth sailing, but it's an essential part of our business growth. >> Yeah, I tell you, it was really interesting. Listen, the panel there was one of the companies up there. They're pretty large and they said, Look, we're going to standardize on a single tool and everybody's going to get on board. And I actually bristled a little bit when I heard that because, you know, the engineering group versus the marketing group versus you know, the Contact Centre. There's certain things that they need to be able to collaborate. But thing like, you know, one tool to rule them all. You know, it sounds a little bit tough out there. Yes, there needs to be some standardization, but, you know, we see that in the cloud world. You know, it turns out customers are using multiple clouds out there because there should be a main one that we focus on. But if I need a best of breed piece for here, or if there's ah, feature functionality, they can't get elsewhere. I need tohave that, and we see that at this show there's just such a diverse ecosystem meant, and there's one hundred forty there's people that make device. There's all these software pieces, there's some big hubs. And then there are all the ancillary things that help plug and enhance and do this because there is some great innovation going on here. Some cool software, things that we're hoping toe, you know, take everything from, you know, White Board and voice two speech and globalization to the next phase. >> Yeah, that was very interesting. Especially the Microsoft teams demo. That Lori writing team this morning, The panel Now that you talked about, there were seven, uh, customers from a variety of industries. Kurtz was their continental. We mentioned, I think, paychecks. I'm curious to get your thoughts on when they were talking about their plans to migrate to cloud, all in some percentage, considering the numbers that we heard yesterday stew in terms of the cloud penetration for the contact center market, what were your thoughts? They're about those things. All in Depends on what makes sense. >> Yeah, It reminds me of what we were talking about in the public loud discussion two years ago. Way No cloud is growing at a very fast pace. Look at our friend here at five. Nine they were growing at a much faster pace, then the contact center. Overall, I believe they're growing somewhere twenty five percent as opposed The industry as a whole is growing at about nine percent. So we understand that cloud is growing faster than the market overall. And it was one of moderated. The panel said that today is about a third, a third, a third on premises hybrid in public and where that kind of steady state will be. I think it's still too early to tell in this industry, just as it is in cloud overall. But absolutely I burst a little bit when it's like, Well, you will never do this one this way. Well, you know, never is not something that we like to say in it because you never know when when that will be possible. You know, my background I worked on virtual ization, started out in test Devon. It reached a point where really there was no technical reasons that it couldn't do it when he rolled. The really large companies will never use cloud for it. Really. Who is better it scaling and updating and making sure you can manage an environment then those hyper scale players. You know, Microsoft got a big present here. You don't ask him. Like her soft customer. Uh oh. You're running off his three sixty five. You're living on Azure. What version of that are you running? And do you have the latest security patch as opposed to? If I have a Windows desktop and I'm not doing up a weight, have I done my patron? If I Donald this stuff and you amplify that by thousands of you know of agents and Contact Center, we know that Cloud has certain speed, agility and being up to get new features and updates in there that I just can't do nearly as well if it is something that I am installing and having to maintain myself or with a service organization, >> right? And so we talked yesterday with the number of guests about what are some of the imperatives to move to cloud in the end, the sum of the non obvious ones cost obviously, is one that we talk about all the time rights to it. Any show that we're at, but also the opportunity for businesses to leverage the burgeoning power of a I. Of course, every show we go Teo Isa Buzzword Machine learning. And of course, the cloud provides the opportunity for there to be more data to train the machines to be better at context and her overall. And, of course, internal communications. >> Right. And something that I like to hear at this show is start talking about a PC compatibility. You talk about the partnerships that are going on, It is not one software stack we're talking about platforms. We're talking about how integrations can happen so that if somebody has the cool new thing that does, you know, a real time engagement better than what I had before. Well, I could probably plug that in, and it's going to work on my platform. You know, everybody here talks about Well, whether you're, you know, a web, acts of Microsoft teams a zoom shop O r. You know any of those various environment, other? Everybody's working across those environments. We've had some standardisation here s O so that whichever one I've chosen, I'm not locked into one environment. And you know, I can help modernized the pieces as a need and take advantage of those new innovations when they come >> Absolutely all right. So, stew, you're a man on the street last night. Tell us some of the interesting things that you heard in some of the folks that you met Way. >> It's interesting. We think we talked about it in our open yesterday. There are a number of companies that have been around for a while And what are they doing today? What is their focus? And couple of companies have done rebranding. So the big party there was a line and I managed to get myself in. Is Polly So Polly has rebranded? Of course it was Polycom and Plantronics coming together. How many times we hear it on the keynote stage that they mentioned that everywhere you go, they're branding is there, So look kudos to their branding and messaging team. We're going to have their CEO on the programme tomorrow, but, you know, you know, the CEO talked about, you know, their new logo. It's like the meaning behind it. Of course, Polly means many, but there's three piece, and if you look at it, it looks like the iconic conference phone. So, you know the room was in there. Everybody is enjoying the appetizers and the open bar. But, you know, there was people, people, no polycom. I'm back in our conference room. We've got one of those speaker phones in there in the nineties. I usedto, you know, sell their conference phones in their video conferencing When I worked for was now a via but was lucid at the time. So there's a lot of intersections. Thie. Other thing I've really found is it feels like everybody here, you know, at one point in their career either work for Cisco or worked for, you know, the Lucent family. You know, of course, T back in the day had the whole telecom space, but it is like many other shows. We go to a rather interconnected community here on DH. You know, we'd guess on It's like, Oh, yeah, Cisco, Skype. And now at five nines. Yeah, it is friendly. You don't see some of the, you know, some of the places we go There's bitter rivalries between, you know, key competitors, and yeah, while you know, all the contact centers don't love, you know that they're there. Brothers and sisters, a two competitors there. Chances are they've worked with half the people there on, you know, Sometimes the future will be working with again. So it's it's a it's a good atmosphere. The people I've talked to really enjoy coming to the show, a Zoe said at the top. >> And this show has evolved over the last night. We were talking about yesterday twenty eight, twenty nine years, starting out as being called PBX and then re branding to Voice Con and then in about twenty eleven to Enterprise Connect. And it was interesting that because the word innovation comes up all the time, as does evolution of communications and collaborations. But when the king it was his kicked off this morning they talked about This is the biggest ever enterprise connect that they've had. So you can feel and you can hear it behind us the momentum, the excitement he talked about. There's a lot of cover artery here. There's a lot of two degrees of separation and tech, but the opportunities for every business, whether yours selling a small particles service on the Amazon marketplace or you're a big a global enterprise, the opportunity to connect and deliver a superior a competitive advantage to your customer experience. This table stakes these days if you don't have that opportunity. Those capabilities. There's going to be something that's going to come and replace you in a heartbeat. >> Yeah, absolutely. At least I have a background in space. But there were places where our walk Drano said, Wow, there's applicability for our business. I mean, we use a number of the collaboration Sweets, You know, I mentioned, I've got I've got maps for, you know, not just the Google sweet, but all the collaboration tools on there's technology that I'm like Gucci. I want to understand that a lot of them are downloaded an app. You can start using them for free. And then there's a Freeman model and and others arm or enterprise licenses on. It's been interesting to watch some of that dynamic as to, you know, it is the pricing. Is Mohr built for the mobile and cloud world than the traditional? You know, I'm going to buy boxes and have a huge capital expense up front. So >> what do you think if you look back to your early days in the call center when you were just a young pup, how much easier your job have been? If you had had some of the capabilities that we're talking about >> now least I wish, you know, back in the nineties, you know, if I just had linked in alone, I could have supercharged s o much of what I did. But all these other tools, right? Putting at my fingertips information. It was like, you know, Lisa tell you date myself in the nineties and taking a call where everybody that works in the call center You knew the area code of every single environment that it didn't tell you where it wass you would be like, Oh, yeah, I, too want to hide in New York. How you doing? You could be whether you're saying good morning or good afternoon based on what part it was like. Oh, wait, I'm talking Arizona. They don't follow daylight savings time. We'd remember all that stuff today. There's too many exchanges. Everybody takes their phone numbers wherever they go. S o it was It was a smaller country back then. But in the other hand, the technology is actually going to give us the opportunity to be ableto imbue that allow humans to focus on the empathy and connectedness that today's digital age sometimes tries to tear away from us. >> Exactly. We need that empathy in that connectedness. So, stew, we have a great program today. Stick around. We've got some folks from Selah Jin we've got. It's now on the programme within communications Fuse. Tetra VX five nine, of course. And there in that little and zoom this afternoon. Yes, thank you. Five O'Clock for student a man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube.

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Enterprise Connect 2019. Brought to you by Five9. >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Enterprise Connect 2019. I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host for the week Stu Miniman, we are in Five9's booth here at this event, excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time Jace Moreno, Microsoft Teams Developer Platform Lead from Microsoft, Jace, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure. >> So we're excited that you're here because you are on the main stage tomorrow morning with Lori Wright. But talk to us about Microsoft Teams. You've been with Microsoft for awhile now, about 10 months with Teams. Talk to us about this tool for collaboration that companies can use from 10 people in a meeting to 10,000? >> Yeah, you'll hear us tomorrow. The phrase we're coining is an intelligent workplace for everyone, right? And I think for a long time, we've been perceived as an organization who builds tools, a lot of times with the Enterprise Knowledge Worker, the whole goal is to dispel that. There's multiple people out there, millions of people who are frontline workers, whatever you want to call 'em but the folks that are interfacing with your actual customers. And so we need to make sure that we are developing tools that are for them. But overall as I look at the product and what we've delivered, it's about bringing you one single place to go to for collaboration, right? So and that is bringing together your tools, whether or not Microsoft built them into one experience and then process these in workflows around them. >> So do you find that in terms of traction that the, like the enterprises and maybe the more senior generations that have been working with Microsoft tools for a long time get it or I mean, 'cause I can imagine there's kind of a cultural gap there with, whether it's a large enterprise like a Microsoft or maybe a smaller organization, There are people in this modern workforce that have very different perspectives, different cultures. How can Teams help to maybe break down some of those barriers and really be a platform for innovation? >> That's a great question. I think we've been battling that cultural, digital clash for a long time to be fair. I think it really comes out with Teams, though. Because it is an entirely different way of working. It's not just chat anymore, right? It's collaboration. It's bringing together all of these experiences and so I think there's a maturity curve for some of our average users to be fair. We're already seeing that curve take off as we speak. But what I often give advice to customers and to partners, I call 'em superpowers but you got to find that one reason that really gets people over the line because we get asked all the time, "Hey, everybody loves it "but we want to get 'em to use this as the one tool, "the one place that I go so I know that everything "I send in our organization goes to that single place. "How do I deliver that?" And I go, "Just give 'em a reason." That's what it comes down to honestly and I genuinely see that with organizations. We're seeing incredible examples of organizations leveraging partner integrations where it's bringing out their culture rather than them trying to evolve it, if that makes sense. >> So Jace, I'm glad you brought up the partners there and when I hear developer platform, all right, bring us inside a little bit. Everything API compatible, when people think about developers, there have been developers in the Microsoft space. .NET's got its great ecosystem there but what is it like to be in the Microsoft ecosystem here in 2019? >> It's a fun place to be. I will say, I've even stopped using the term developer when I say platform though to be fair because, and the reason I bring this up, what we've actually built allows a lot of IT professionals to build as well on Teams. PowerShell Scripts as an example is a huge opportunity for customers. Frankly, I've never written a line of code in my life and I built a bot for Teams. So it's pretty amazing what we're enabling but when we look at a lot of what partners are building, it's where are they seeing opportunities in the marketplace? So Five9 as an example with customer care, great opportunity there where we can extend the capabilities that a contact center as an example might need inside of Teams if they want to explore that. >> I love, I actually got to interview Jeffrey Snover at Microsoft Ignite last year who of course created PowerShell and he was like more excited now than he was when it was created quite a long time ago. So when I look around this platform, tell us some of the partners that you're working with. I saw some of the early notes that things like Zoom, and gosh you know, talk about some of the partners you're working with. >> So one thing I'll touch on too that I don't know if I fully answered your last question is what I'm hearing from our partners who have built on Teams and I'll touch on which ones in a second, we call it the extensibility of our platform but quite literally what it means is they are, we are allowing partners to allow their solutions to render in different ways inside of Teams and what we're hearing from partners, I had a conversation with Disco the other day as an example, so they built a, I'm not doing them a service by explaining it like this but it's a kudos bot essentially that they've delivered and it's actually bringing out that culture. But they told us the beauty of the Teams platform is that they don't only show up as a bot to the end users, they actually, we've offered them other ways to interact with the end user, so whatever's more comfortable for me inside of team, and my interaction with that solution, it's easy for them to have that correspondence. But in terms of top partnerships that we're looking at, we've had some incredible integrations built recently. ADP just launched theirs pretty recently to check payroll and build sort of a time off process flow if you will, with the bot. Polly's been a great one from day one. We have integrations with partners like Atlassian for a DevOps tool, so Jira and Confluence Cloud, Trello for project management, I could go on forever but we have over 250 in the store right now and that is growing very rapidly. This is what we spend most of our time on. So the initial focus was what are the tools out there that most people need to get their job done every day? That's where we'll start and now we're really evolving that and we're seeing some incredible things being built as we speak. >> So Jace, being at Enterprise Connect, this is an event where it's been around for a long time and has evolved quite considerably as Enterprise Communication and Collaborations has but one of things that when I was doing research to prep for the show that I'm reading is that the customer experience is table stakes. It's make or break. But some of the recommendations that when a company is, whether it's within a business unit buying software and services or at the corporate level, the customer has to have a seat there so that the decision is being made. Are we implementing tools and technologies and services that are actually going to delight our customers, not just retain them but drive customer lifetime value? In your role, where are some of Microsoft's customers in terms of helping to evolve the evolution of the platform? >> That's a great question, I'm really glad you asked it. It's been fun in my role because what we're seeing is a lot of customers who have taken the platform and built integrations to their tools. So think outside of productivity for a second, think IT support, think employee resources, they're building those integrations and they're leveraging those as a way to drive that organic broad adoption inside of their companies. Because they don't want to do the IT force anymore, they want people to love it like you said and naturally take to it and so I keep coming back to that, I call it superpowers, again it might be a ridiculous term but it's those superpowers you deliver to your people that allow them to get their work done better, get them to love that product and to your point, not want to ever leave it 'cause you can get a majority of your work done every day in that place. So we've seen some really cool ones. A couple examples that we just shared recently, Dentsu's a great one, so they have a three person Change Management Team for a 50,000 person global organization, okay? Three people, got to scale that right? Can't do that one on one training and so they initially took Teams and integrated it into their current website, internet, internal portals to essentially create a chatbot that helped people learn how to use the technology they delivered. Now they're taken that one step further because they saw such great success and they're going to different centers of excellence inside the organization saying, "Hey, do you want to get on board? "Because we'd like to make this the bot "that you interact with as an employee of Dentsu." So it's just incredible but it's driving again that adoption they're seeing, leveraging some of the simple stuff that we have on the platform. Does that answer your question? >> Yes very well, thank you. >> So when I look at some of the macro trends about communication, where I've heard some great success stories is internally just being able to collaborate with some of my internal people, Teams has done really well. Collaborating between various organizations still seems to have more challenges. Can you just bring us a little bit of insight as to why I hear great success stories there and not negatives on Teams but just it's still challenging if I have multiple organizations? We all understand even just doing a conference call or heck, a video call between lots of different companies still in 2019's a challenge. >> Yeah look, I mean I'll give you a couple answers here. We are young, I mean it's two years old as a product. So the momentum's been incredible but I'm not going to sit here and tell you we don't have things to work on, we absolutely do. What I will say though, take Enterprise Connect for example, we actually have a Teams team for Enterprise Connect. There's, I actually checked this morning, there's 181 people in that team and a majority of them are guests, so external users, So vendors that we work with to help us plan this conference and bring it all together and a lot of that has been seamless. Yes, there are little things here or there that we're working on but in that respect it's been pretty incredible. I constantly am using it with external parties and I find though, I don't necessarily know if the challenge is in the interface itself, I think it ends up becoming this opportunity to really educate people on this new way of working. And so going back to our partners again, we're sitting here with Five9, but that becomes critical. How do we work better with these organizations who we have mutual customers with to create that experience together, right? And bring again, superpowers to the users. >> What about a security as a superpower? Where is that in these conversations? >> I mean everything we build has a layer of security. I actually just got out of a meeting, you'll see, we've got an announcement around this tomorrow. So I can't blow it unfortunately but the bottom, the foundation and core of everything that we do will be security focused, absolutely. >> All right, so I went to the Microsoft show last year, AI is also one of those things besides security. AI's infused anywhere, so where does AI fit into the whole Teams story? >> The way we see it, I look at this in a couple angles. So most people get onto Teams and it's kind of chat and collab at first, right? Not always the case but a lot of organizations do that. Then it goes to meetings then I think, and you'll see a lot of this cool stuff tomorrow, we're doing it on AI but it's how then do you proactively start delivering better experiences to your end users? So I think of things that we're looking at right now is taking data, and sending those as an example to your IT admins about giving them insight into how users are leveraging Teams. How do you improve that experience for them? So again, you drive that natural broad adoption but kind of assist them a little bit along the way. So tons of great examples around the board. I'm not sure if that fully answers your question but just the sky's the limit. I think of some other things we're looking at though, you'll see a lot coming in the form of transcription, translation, those services that really create inclusiveness which is a big focus for us. Again back to that point earlier, it's the intelligent workplace for everyone. We want to be able to provide services with our partnerships that can really reach anybody in the business world, right? And even in the consumer world in some sense. >> Well Jace, thanks so much for joining Stu and me on the program this afternoon. We're looking forward to hearing your keynote in the morning and sharing with us some of the excitement and things that are happening and announcements we're going to hear from Microsoft Teams tomorrow. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, appreciate it. >> Our pleasure, fFor Stu Miniman, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of day one, Enterprise Connect 2019 from Orlando. Stick around, Stu and I will be right back with our next guest. 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live from San Francisco it's the cube covering micron inside 2018 brought to you by micron welcome back to San Francisco Bay everybody this is the cube the leader in live tech coverage my name is Dave Valentin I'm here with my co-host David Floria we're covering micron insight 2018 really bring it together memory storage and artificial intelligence talking about AI for good talking about changing the way in which we work new workloads Raj to Lori is here he's the senior vice president and general manager of microns a booming mobile business unit rise I think it's the fastest growing business unit at micron at least of XY's and Keith crescent is here is the senior vice a senior vice president at Qualcomm Keith welcome thank gentlemen thanks for coming on the cube okay thank you so right let's let's start with you what are the big trends that you see that are driving that at 60% growth rate in your business yeah I mean we are finding now that you know mobile phones and use of memory in mobile phones and this is DRAM and also use of storage in mobile phones this is where we actually you know like flash both are growing inside a mobile phone you know we've seen people launch you know four and six gigabyte phones and now we have our customers talking about 8 and 10 and 12 gigabyte phones in the future and one of the big reasons is the applications you know a lot of machine learning and AI applications from the phones and those are driving the need for a lot of increased both storage and memory so we talked about what's changing in your business over the last several years I mean mobile obviously exploded onto the scene but now people are talking about AI and mobile and and and just increase use cases and applications so what's going on from your perspective yeah I think my handset perspective there's been some visual changes right the screens got a little bigger the bezels get smaller phones get a little thinner and so you see some of the visual cues but really the excitement of what's going on underneath the visual cues so the amount of AI processing is accelerating at a rapid pace a lot of advanced cameras you know moving from two three four and now their phones with five cameras cameras to recognize depth perception there's a voice recognition so there's a lot of AI processing and a lot of capability getting into the phone for a variety of applications okay so voice recognition that makes sense you'd use AI for that but you're talking about AI in in visual and in in the handset talk more about that explain how that all works yeah so so actually I would argue that today imaging is probably the primary application of AI so cameras used to be just capturing pixels but now it's about much more than capturing pixels it's about understanding what those pixels are so are they recognizing objects or food or something else or is it facial recognition for things like payments and biometrics and so the cameras now are much more intelligent and with multiple cameras you're adding depth information so then you start to get to much higher levels of realism for things like avatar and gaming and other areas where the camera is capturing and also perceiving so not a hot dog for you fans of the show Silicon Valley so but Raj what does this all mean for the the memory and storage requirements yeah I mean eyes keep mentioned I think you know the mobile phone you know with the process from Qualcomm and and other processor vendors has really gotten to have a lot more camera applications and a lot more AI applications now there's a there's a difference when you actually drive applications that need AI and machine learning versus other applications and the difference is that the compute paradigm in AI and ml is different in the sense that these are like complex neural networks that need a load of lot of data very close to the processor to achieve the result so as more AI applications come in we are actually finding that the customers which are Qualcomm customers and our customers are asking for more processing from the airside but they're also asking for more higher speeds higher density memory to kite to couple tightly with the process so they can realize these AI applications for the consumers and also storage because sometimes you want to store a lot of the images and videos on the card so both storage and memory are increasing as applications come in but I'd like to ask about the gaming side of things and the ante AR that seems to me that is is starting to improve to a level which is frightening linear reality what do you have to do to get it to that stage where you can have true VR and have games for example which exploit that sure so maybe first I'll talk about gaming specifically gaming obviously continues to grow a lot of money in gaming gaming tournaments and so forth the gaming certainly is getting more realistic with better graphics and so forth better displays multiplayer gaming very hot right multiplayer gaming requires you know very fast connections very low latency connections to another source so play multiple players can play at the same time also many times for games you'll have a play with partners maybe you're on a team of five but now in coming soon maybe that team of five you don't need to find that fifth person or that fourth person maybe there's an AI engine that's running similar to the human capability and you're actually playing with a simulated player right from teams so there's in that require opens up a whole new area of processing for the games and then I think for AR and BR AR is a little further out than VR err requires some more advancements with respect to optics and so forth VR is taking you know high-end displays and AI and graphics kind of packaging it all into one to really change the paradigm of how you interact with the computer how does 5g change things is it is it as much of a game changer as people think or is there just so much data that it sort of allows us to keep pace I wonder if you can talk about 5g yeah so so you know every ten years or so there's a G transition 3G and 99 4G in 2009 now 5g in 2019 so it's not a ten-year cadence and every time when you have a G transition you couple that with a transition in computing and it changes the paradigm so what's gonna happen is 5g is gonna bring a lot more capacity a lot lower latency at the same time AI is coming in and that together is going to create a pretty powerful platform for applications for the future and then of course there's just so much more data now how do you guys keep because the you mentioned you know you've been talking to the to the street and you mentioned this morning that the the rate of bit density that is is moderating so how do you guys keep up where are your investments that allow you to keep pace yeah I mean we have a so just maybe a little bit of comment on 5g I think as the bandwidth to the device gets faster and faster there's more and more data that comes in that you can imagine for example one of the things people out of people like to do you know is to you know download content if you look at Netflix if you look at Amazon Prime if you look at even DirecTV and I have all of those you can actually download the content now and watch them offline so as it happens and that content gets to be 4k and an even higher frame rates the amount of storage that's needed to download that is getting more and more like you know you know my wife upgraded her phone the other day and the first thing she said is I want an entire Netflix season on my phone when I'm in the gym so so you know there's simple things like that I've changed a lot you know that's one of the reasons why the storage is getting so much now when you go to 5g and the download speed gets higher you can download like a 4k video really quickly now you got to put it somewhere after you downloaded so that's actually driving the need for this so before people wouldn't like download a 4k video because where would you put it so as we increase storage that kind of stuff comes really fast because you couldn't you know take a long time to download before so as the bandwidth gets higher the storage requirements the memory requirements are getting higher now what we are doing on that front is we're investing a lot you know as Sanjay and Scott talked earlier both in our fab capacity is both in our technology transitions we have a lot of new interesting technologies like new emerging memories they're actually like 3d crosspoint we talked about that kind of blur the line between storage and memory so there's a lot of new interesting technologies that will actually take advantage of that super exciting time so going back to the image processing side of that one of the trends it seems to me is that the processing is going further and further to the edge itself and going inside the camera itself do you talk a little bit about that and what it's going to take to to put that that your memory technology or bandwidth right inside the camera itself sure so so there's no doubt that you want to maximize the capability on the edge as a first step and then you want to reduce the late as much as possible to the cloud as a second step so on the edge you know if you had something for example if I'm taking a picture of you and I want face recognition I don't want to take every frame and send it up to the clouds I'm gonna waste bandwidth so on I want that capability on device and that's true for a variety of different applications you want to maximize the capability on device and then focus on the fast connection so the cloud and the device from a latency and bandwidth perspective are much tightly more tightly coupled you know you think about the evolution of computing you know obviously everything was centralized and then you know pcs the world was about pcs back then it was kind of the the centralization with it was a bit blip on the screen compared to the pcs was everything remember that and then of course mobile drove cloud through the roof and now with the edge and cloud and and mobile you're seeing just this ubiquitous capability that senses now you bring in AI you bring in machine intelligence it what do you guys envision for the for the next 10 years in terms of what the world looks like centralized decentralized distributed intelligent I mean it's just mind-boggling what's your vision well I think if you look at client devices client devices certainly generate a lot of data maybe we get a little bit of data from a sensor and a bridge but maybe we'll get a lot of data from the car traveling across that bridge and what you need to do is you need to make sense of that data locally and then transmit it back to the cloud so you want the cloud to have the most useful data or sorted data right data that can then improve you know automated driving or reduce traffic accidents and so forth but you don't want all the data sent there so what's gonna happen is on the edge there's literally you know a device is going from smartphones where there's about one and a half billion a year to billions even trillions of IOT connected devices any device that has a computing element also is can have a connectivity element also is going to have an AI element so it's gonna be a much more connected world as opposed to just connected people yeah I mean I think kids keep explained it very well you know you know if you step back a little bit I think that the history of technology and evolution has been very similar right in industry for a while but we all remember the times when we said we just did month one mainframe and everyone needs dumb terminals right then we went on to say hey you know what I think distributed computing with everyone having a pcs that I think you do now we are back to maybe we should have everything in the cloud and the edge devices so I actually think in a world goes cyclical and the more you do at the edge the more it drives the need for the cloud and we call it the virtuous cycle and I think the best way to think about it is you want the HD devices to send information not data which means they need to be for data needs to be processed with memory and compute to become information and then you send the information to the edge yeah I guess my point was that you know I've been around a while too and you're going to see the pendulum swing I feel like the pendulum is not swinging anymore it's just exploded inside it's really an exciting time in our industry guys thanks very much for coming thank you appreciate thank you all right keep right there everybody we'll be back at micron insight from the Embarcadero you're watching the cube right back [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando Florida it's theCUBE covering Grace Hopper's celebration of women in computing brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Grace Hopper Conference here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Jeferick. We are joined by Monica Bailey and August Goldman. Monica is the Chief People Officer at GoDaddy and August is the Senior Vice President of Customer Care. Thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you, it's great to be here >> So let's start out with the numbers because you're a big number crunching company and you are collecting data and you're also sharing some data, so talk a little about what you have found. >> Yeah, well for the last few years we've been tracking how we pay men versus women because we really care about making sure we're paying all of our employees really fairly, and so we're happy this year to be able to say that for every dollar a man makes in the company a woman in a similar job also makes a dollar. And so that's great, that's the goal. The goal is fairness for all of our folks, so we're really excited about that. >> So how long did it take you to get there? >> So we started it three years ago with our CEO Blake Kirby onstage here at the Grace Hopper Conference which was in Houston at the time in front of 12,000 folks, and we showed the numbers. We showed pay parity and it wasn't parity at that point. >> Was it close? What are we talking about here? >> It was $0.96 cents, $0.96 per dollar, so it was close but it wasn't parity. And here's what's interesting, we've always said we need to be comfortable with uncomfortable data. I think we've talked about that before on this stage, and even if the data is not what you want it to be expose it, dig into it. What we've done together is we've found out what's wrong. >> Okay so how did you go about finding out what was wrong, and then also fixing it? >> Yeah well we looked at a few things, so first of all, we looked at different populations so we'd look at how are our technical employees paid, how are our non-technical employees paid, how are our leaders paid? And so we definitely see things when we look into those groups of employees, But we also just took, let's take the slice of our biggest set of jobs, our engineers, pretty applicable for this audience here today. So, we took a look at our engineers and said How are our entry level developers paid, men versus women? And we're also this year looking at our minorities as well. It's really important to not just stop at gender and look at how all your employees are paid. So, yeah, we definitely have made great progress on that. I don't know if you want to speak to it. >> So here's what's interesting, when we dug into this data that Monica is talking about we actually found that software development engineers one, and two, women were paid more. More. In those roles. So we said 'Oh, well that's fantastic' Well, guess what? The population size by percent of three, four, five, and six, the women dropped off. Fell off. And then we said well wait a second, what might be happening here, and all of a sudden, something came up in the data that we were just, we wouldn't have known unless we dug into it. Women stayed longer in those roles. They didn't ask for promotion. >> They stayed longer in the ones and twos. >> The ones and twos and guess what? If you stay longer in a role every year you get a little merit increase, every year you make more, eventually you'll make more, versus someone who is clipping through the levels at a good pace. So because of that, Monica put it something, You want to talk about promotion flagging? >> Yeah, we tried an experiment two summers ago and we took a look at this phenomenon of women and also some introverts, not just women, right? But it tends to be women aren't pounding their fists on the table for a promotion. So as a result their promotion rates are lower. So we went in and said let's try a little experiment called promotion flagging, let's just say hey, a good performing SDE, Software Dev Engineer, They're normally in role about 12 months or 18 months, a good one, before they get promoted, sometimes longer, good ones, too, but that's just on average When does the first time a good performing person would get promoted, and we said that will be our flag to managers, just to say hey, you're going through review, don't forget, all these folks have been in level a certain amount of time. Because some folks aren't begging you and demanding a promotion so let's consider everyone equally. And the goal wasn't really to promote more people, the goal was, let's just not forget anyone in the process, because that happens, unconsciously people just, they're forgetting folks across the industry. So they did that and it was amazing. The result was amazing. Also I should say, though, our goal was to make sure everybody got really actionable feedback to grow their skills and their impact at the company and their likelihood of a promotion down the road, which is exactly what we're going for because that makes your company better, so we love that. But the cool news is, because we've been following this data really closely because we're very nervous, because I also don't want to suddenly treat one of my populations not as well as they were being treated before. So we are really excited that men's promotion rates stayed unchanged. Women's promotion rates were jumped by a third. So just by merely saying don't forget all your folks please and give them good feedback, we saw that women got promoted 30% higher rate than they had in years prior, and so that's pretty cool for us. >> So I have two very specific questions: One, is there low-hanging fruit that somebody else watching this can see where there was the big disparity that was the easiest to fix? And two, you keep talking about reviews. There's a whole lot of conversation about the annual review process and how broken it is. You mentioned 18 months. Have you changed your, or maybe you changed it before, but has this forced you to look at the typical annual review process and reevaluate? >> Alright so I'll take the first if you want to grab the second Because the first one's easier so I'm just trying to get the first one she can do the hard one. That's why she's the head of HR now. She took my job by the way (laughs). >> I wasn't going to ask that. >> You weren't going to ask that, how can you not ask that? >> Stay with the easy question though. >> Okay, the first one is exactly what Monica was just talking about and that is actually flag folks in role after a period of time, and say you know what, both men and women, flag them and say, review them for promotion. Review for promotion. It's very simple, it's very easy. After a year of level one, maybe 18 months of level two, just say hey, have a look, is this person ready? And if they're not ready, what should they do to get ready. >> And that's the actionable feedback >> And here's what's interesting, here are the stats, which is really cool. So, two years ago we had 6% of our software development two were women. Last year was 15%. This year, 31%. 31% of software development two are women, and our software development one is now up to 41%. So you see we're building our pipeline so we're getting them in. Now the question is, once they're within the company how do we develop and grow them and promote over time? >> It begs the question, what are the threes? >> Oh, it's 13%. So you can see it's dropped off. So no, give us a year or two, we'll be back on the stage. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And the goal is then 30, 40%, so, you know give us a few years. >> That's a great little actionable item though, just to make sure that you're paying attention to the people that aren't paying attention for themselves. >> And they did it as an experiment and are you going to now scale that to the rest of the company? >> We have scaled it to level twos and level threes and this year we'll probably scale it to a level four so each time we add another level we look at the data and see how it works. At some point folks are allowed to do an awesome job in the jobs they're in so we're not an up or out kind of company, some places are like that, so at some point we'll probably stop saying, 'should you promote this person to be leader of the universe?' because they're pretty great. But Jeff, you asked a great question about performance reviews, and I'm super passionate about this topic, so we were selected by Stanford's Clayman Institute as their partner a few years ago to basically conduct experiments with. They choose one company a year to say hey, are you open-minded enough to try some crazy stuff with us and see if there might be a result that we can share with the industry afterwards. And so we just felt so happy they chose us, and we shared tons of our data with them, they saw our employee survey, they saw redacted performance reviews, they got to sit in on our most senior talent review which is a calibration session to hear how are we talking about all of our employees. And the Clayman Institute, they care about the advancement of women in leadership, but my first meeting with them, I'm like, look, I super care about the women in my company, but I kind of care about all my employees in my company, so like, I need to make sure we're being really fair to everybody, and they're like, 'that's what we care about, too' and I'm like, okay, phew, first hurdle we passed. Anyway they're stunning foot partners and what they, after doing tons of this analysis, what they said was, tackle what almost no company has tackled. Tackle unconscious bias that lives within the people, processes, specifically around career advancement. So again, that's promotion that we talked about, that's also performance review. So we're like, that's us at GoDaddy, we're like let's try it, who knows what's going to happen, let's just see, so we jumped right in and basically what the found is at GoDaddy we care about what you do and how you do it, so those are, so what is sort of career ladder levels you hear companies talk about, and here's a general expectation, and how do you do against your goals. Great. And how you do it is how we collectively work together to get good stuff done at our company, right? And it sort of lives within our values. Our values don't live within a big poster that are shiny, and people kind of walk by and go ha, that's not what it's like here. We literally pay people to live our values, and to demonstrate that because we think it makes us better as a company and more impactful. So we took a look at these values, and I'll be honest I had created with the best of intentions basically some competencies, too many, that lived under these values, and when you have way too many things for people to keep track of, it's almost like having nothing at all. Which a lot of companies have also done, blow it up, put it in the hands of managers, let's assume they'll all do the right thing consistently, which doesn't happen. So what we did with the Clayman Institute is we interviewed about 20 of our leaders and we did some focus groups, and we said, look, these are the six behaviors that line up against three of our values central to performance. These behaviors are critical for all of us. It's stuff like, do you share information with other teams, or do you look for ways to integrate your work across your team or across multiple teams, depending on the scope of your job. Do you work fearlessly? Do you include others in conversations so you're driving innovative solutions and working fearlessly for your folks. >> And you know what it's not? Your style, how do you approach others, are you bossy, nothing about that, nothing about approach. You could be an introvert, an extrovert, all different styles. These are actionable behaviors around how we're going to get stuff done and be distinctive in our company. >> So, what is your advice to other tech companies when they are writing their values and thinking about how they want their employees to live out these values? >> Well it's interesting, number one, it has to result in business results, right? So, it's really easy to have a really fun time writing these but they have to make a difference in your company and mean something, otherwise why would you want to reward them? Right, they're just nice otherwise. Two, they really collectively should drive the culture of your company. So when you look at it en masse, if you see, if I get everyone doing these things, is that the culture that drives my company? Is that going to attract and retain people, and drive again the business result we want? So to me those are super, super important. But the Clayman team will take you to camp and help you with all this stuff but really also, is your language equally accessible to men and women? To introverts and extroverts? To all of your employees, to minorities, to different employee populations, because some things like, 'aggressive drivers get things done.' Now, I know a lot of women by the way, who are very aggressive drivers and get a lot of things done but certain language is sort of unconsciously attributed to men more than women, and so if you have one role model for what success looks like and it happens to be subconsciously a man that you think about, women are disadvantaged. So they really, we went so deep with them. So my main advice is, if you can, frankly I'd just become a member of the Clayman Institute fan club and try to get some consulting help from them, but there are great folks out there that do this kind of work for a living who are really helpful, because it's really hard to take a look at yourself objectively. >> Well actually I was just going to mention that, so when Monica mentioned we had monitors sitting in our most senior review of the top 150 people. When we calibrated them together a group of 30, of the next 150, we actually had two monitors sitting and writing, when are we talking about style. When are we being inconsistent between one VP and another VP And we actually, the first year, we didn't get an A. The first year we did not get an A, by any shot of the imagination. >> It makes me feel better to say probably most companies wouldn't, right? But we did not and we were brave. >> If you don't measure it you can't make a change. We've had Lori a couple times on theCUBE but the Cayman Institute does fantastic work. >> Lori was the one who guided us, and they're amazing. And I think what's interesting, we're all well-intended, wonderful executives, I mean we are well-intended, wonderful people. You look around the room, I'm going, 'we don't have bias, we're great, we're going to get an A, bring monitors in, bring them all in, this is going to be great.' At the first year they're like, mm, no, look how many inconsistencies you did over the day. And they showed us the data and we just sat there and went >> Did they record it 'cause tape don't lie >> They did not record it but I can tell you they typed faster than I could >> Lot of data, lot of data >> They came in the next year. So we did a hard look at ourselves, we talked about doing it differently, they came in, the same two people, the next year, real different. And by the way, we will continue to have them every single year. >> Well you need the reflection back. Well August, Monica, thank you so much for being on this show. It's always so much fun to have GoDaddy here on the Cube. >> Thank you >> Great. We will have more from Grace Hopper in Orlando, Florida just after this (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Palo Alto, it's theCUBE, covering Women Transforming Technology 2017, brought to you by VMware. >> theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology, held at VMware's campus here in Palo Alto, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, joined by Jeff Frick. We are here at the conference. It starts today. It's a one-day event. >> Right. >> And we just heard Kara Swisher, who is a journalistic hero of mine, and she gave a great, rousing, funny, timely, topical, political keynote. What'd you think? >> Well, she's been covering for so long. I read aol.com way back when, and I actually did an internship at AOL, I think in '96, back in the days when they were shipping, shipping CDs, so it's so fun to put her together with kind of that. >> Right. >> Seminal moment in time. >> She's a veteran. Exactly. >> She's terrific. She followed the characteristics that she outlined in her keynote, which is be true to yourself and don't be an asshole but don't really care what other people think. Be true to yourself. And she was that through and through. It's the first time I've actually ever seen her speak. It was a lot of fun. >> She's a great, really dynamic, funny, self-deprecating but also a bit of an ego herself. >> Oh, absolutely. >> I enjoyed particularly, as a fellow journalist, how she took Silicon Valley to task a few times, just talking a little bit about the naval gazing the Silicon Valley does, how badly they want to talk about the products and the process when really, the end users pretty much just care about, does it work, what's it going to do? >> Right, and two, it's kind of good news, bad news. With Trump, it's a never-ending source of good content for journalists, never have to wake up in the morning and think of a hard story to cover. And now, what's going on unfortunately with Uber, which as she said, is like somebody falling down a flight of stairs and they just keep falling and falling and falling. Big post that came out last week on LinkedIn, it got pretty viral, widespread, and then apparently another one and lord knows, I'm sure there's plenty more to go. And she really called out that she's trying to make people take a stand publicly against things that are not right and to really take a position, use your position of power to try to, as she said, help people with afflictions and afflict people that don't need the help. >> Yeah, comfort. >> Yeah, comfort those with afflictions. >> And afflict the comfortable. Yeah, no, I think it's a great point, in terms of here you Silicon Valley captains of industry, you are powerful people, you run powerful companies, act like it. >> Right. >> Act like it. And take up these causes that Trump is certainly taking up and particularly since they are so core to the values of Silicon Valley. These are gender issues, immigration, gay, transgender, and start taking a stance and stand up. >> Right. And so, we're excited to be here. This is, I guess, the second time they've had the Women Transforming Technology conference. We actually covered a VM women at a VMware show a couple years ago, and the Clayman Institute was there. So we're excited to be back. A full day of interviews, really glad to have you out and again, welcome to California from the East Coast. >> Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. >> But it's a full line-up. We're going wall to wall and ending the day with I know someone that you're really looking forward to. >> A feminist icon, Gloria Steinem. And I also think that kudos to VMware and to the other sponsors of this conference for choosing her. She's not an obvious choice for a Women Transforming Technology conference closing address, but she really is going to take on so many of these important issues of the day. >> Okay, so any particular guests that you're most excited about today? >> I mean, there's so many. I am excited to talk to the women at the Clayman Institute for Gender Research. >> Yeah, Lori's fantastic. >> Yeah, Lori's going to be fantastic. Yanbing Li, she looks really interesting and a dynamic speaker, I know she's been on theCUBE before. >> Right, right, many times. >> Yeah. >> Alright, super. Well, I think they are just about ready to get out of the keynote, so we should probably. >> Excellent. >> Get ready for our first guest. >> Thank you so much. Great. >> Alright. >> We'll see you back here soon.