foreign welcome back to re invent 2022 we're wrapping up four days well one evening and three solid days wall-to-wall of cube coverage I'm Dave vellante John furrier's birthday is today he's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married his his great Sister Janet awesome family the furriers uh spanning the globe and uh and John I know you wanted to be here you're watching in Newark or you were waiting to uh to get in the plane so all the best to you happy birthday one year the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday because he's always here at AWS re invented his birthday so I'm really pleased to have two really special guests uh former Cube host Cube Alum great wikibon contributor Stu miniman now with red hat still good to see you again great to be here Dave yeah I was here for that cake uh the twitterverse uh was uh really helping to celebrate John's birthday today and uh you know always great to be here with you and then with this you know Awesome event this week and friend of the cube of many time Cube often Cube contributor as here's a cube analyst this week as his own consultancy sarbj johal great to see you thanks for coming on good to see you Dave uh great to see you stu I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and um I enjoy the discussion every time so this is kind of cool because you know usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day but this place is still packed I mean it's I mean yeah it's definitely lighter you can at least walk and not get slammed but I subjit I'm going to start with you I I wanted to have you as the the tail end here because cause you participated in the analyst sessions you've been watching this event from from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers developers Partners the ecosystem where do you want to go what's your big takeaways I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along they are I was listening to some of the accessions and when I was back to my room at nine so they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward there's a lot to fix still it doesn't seem like that it seems like we are done with the cloud or The Innovation is done now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next there's a lot of room to grow on the storage side on the network side uh the improvements we need and and also making sure that the software which is you know which fits the hardware like there's a specialized software um sorry specialized hardware for certain software you know so there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like we have a specialized database for each kind of workload specialized processes processors for each kind of workload yeah the graviton section and actually the the one interesting before I forget that the arbitration was I asked that like why there are so many so many databases and IRS for the egress costs and all that stuff can you are you guys thinking about reducing that you know um the answer was no egress cost is not a big big sort of uh um show stopper for many of the customers but but the from all that sort of little discussion with with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in so if you are using some open source you know um soft software it can be on the you know platform side or can be database side you have database site you have that option at AWS so this is a lot there because I always thought that that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about exactly we'll talk about Stu what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges yeah I I got a comment on open source Dave of course there because I mean look we criticized to Amazon for years about their lack of contribution they've gotten better they're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins many times absolutely there's certain people inside Amazon I'm saying you know many of us talk Cloud native they're like well let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things and you know I talk to a lot of customers they use more than one Cloud Dave and therefore certain things absolutely I want to Leverage The Innovation that Amazon has brought I do think we're past building all the main building blocks in many ways we are like in day two yes Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way but you know there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like Wow new category whole new way of thinking about something we're in a vocals last year Dave said you know we have over 200 services and if we listen to you the customer we'd have over two thousand his session this week actually got some great buzz from my friends in the serverless ecosystem they love some of the things tying together we're using data the next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world so you know there's a lot of good things here and to your point Dave the ecosystem one of the things I always look at is you know was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement there was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like oh gosh there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone where I did hear some rumbling is Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the gsis pushing really deep into supporting Cloud bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their uh their go to market so a couple things so I think I think we all agree that a lot of the the announcements here today were taping seams right I call it and as it relates to the mother of all lock-in the reason why I say that it's it's obviously very much a pejorative compare Oracle company you know really well with Amazon's lock-in for Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have Choice Within the the house so you don't have to leave you know there's a there's a lot to eat at the table yeah you look at oracle's ecosystem it's like yeah you know oracle is oracle's ecosystem so so that is how I think they do lock in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much Choice Dave I agree with you a thousand I mean I'm here I'm a I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that it's not our way or get out which Oracle tries how much do you extract from the overall I.T budget you know are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money YouTube hasn't been all that profitable Amazon I think is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money you know we used to talk Dave about you know how much dollars does VMware make versus there um I think you know Amazon is a much bigger you know VMware 2.0 we used to think talk about all the time that VMware for every dollar spent on VMware licenses 15 or or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem I would think the ratio is even higher here sarbji and an Oracle I would say it's I don't know yeah actually 1 to 0.5 maybe I don't know but I want to pick on your discussion about the the ecosystem the the partner ecosystem is so it's it's robust strong because it's wider I was I was not saying that there's no lock-in with with Amazon right AWS there's lock-in there's lock-in with everything there's lock-in with open source as well but but the point is that they're they're the the circle is so big you don't feel like locked in but they're playing smart as well they're bringing in the software the the platforms from the open source they're picking up those packages and saying we'll bring it in and cater that to you through AWS make it better perform better and also throw in their custom chips on top of that hey this MySQL runs better here so like what do you do I said oh Oracle because it's oracle's product if you will right so they are I think think they're filing or not slenders from their go to market strategy from their engineering and they listen to they're listening to customers like very closely and that has sort of side effects as well listening to customers creates a sprawl of services they have so many services and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service I said don't call it a new service it's a feature of a existing service sure a lot of features a lot of features this is egress our egress costs a real problem or is it just the the on-prem guys picking at the the scab I mean what do you hear from customers so I mean Dave you know I I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time and Amazon charges on that are more expensive than any other Cloud the cloud providers and partly because Amazon is you know probably not a word they'd use they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that they can get away with it um because um yeah you know we've seen some of the cloud providers have special Partnerships where you can actually you know leave and you're not going to be charged and Amazon they've been a little bit more flexible but absolutely I've heard customers say that they wish some good tunning and tongue-in-cheek stuff what else you got we lay it on us so do our players okay this year I think the focus was on the upside it's shifting gradually this was more focused on offside there were less talk of of developers from the main stage from from all sort of quadrants if you will from all Keynotes right so even Werner this morning he had a little bit for he was talking about he he was talking he he's job is to Rally up the builders right yeah so he talks about the go build right AWS pipes I thought was kind of cool then I said like I'm making glue easier I thought that was good you know I know some folks don't use that I I couldn't attend the whole session but but I heard in between right so it is really adopt or die you know I am Cloud Pro for last you know 10 years and I think it's the best model for a technology consumption right um because of economies of scale but more importantly because of division of labor because of specialization because you can't afford to hire the best security people the best you know the arm chip designers uh you can't you know there's one actually I came up with a bumper sticker you guys talked about bumper sticker I came up with that like last couple of weeks The Innovation favorite scale they have scale they have Innovation so that's where the Innovation is and it's it's not there again they actually say the market sets the price Market you as a customer don't set the price the vendor doesn't set the price Market sets the price so if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that I think that's BS um yeah I I have a few more notes on the the partner if you you concur yeah Dave you know with just coming back to some of this commentary about like can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like Community clouds uh your companies like you know Goldman and NASDAQ and the like where Industries will actually be able to share data uh and you know expand the usage and you know Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some so it's good to see those things because you know we all know you know all of us are smarter than just any uh single company together so again some of that's open source but some of that is you know I think Amazon is is you know allowing Innovation to thrive I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there well yeah I mean it it's uh Dave if you want to go there with the super cloud because you know there's a metaphor for exactly what you described NASDAQ Goldman Sachs we you know and and you know a number of other companies that are few weeks at the Berkeley Sky Computing paper yeah you know that's a former supercloud Dave Linthicum calls it metacloud I'm not really careful I mean you know I go back to the the challenge we've been you know working at for a decade is the distributed architecture you know if you talk about AI architectures you know what lives in the cloud what lives at the edge where do we train things where do we do inferences um locations should matter a lot less Amazon you know I I didn't hear a lot about it this show but when they came out with like local zones and oh my gosh out you know all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and Pull It in it's no longer you know Dave it was Hotel California all of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in it's like I don't think that's going to be the case we know that there will be so much data out at the edge Amazon absolutely is super important um there some of those examples we're giving it's not necessarily multi-cloud but there's collaboration happening like in the healthcare world you know universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing uh regardless of you know where they live well Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that you know we're going to talk about multi-cloud we're not going to lead with it necessarily but we are going to actually talk about it and that's different to your points too than in the fullness of time all the data will be in the cloud that's a new narrative but go ahead yeah actually Amazon is a leader in the cloud so if they push the cloud even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it they benefit from it right and and the narrative is that way there's the proof is there right so again Innovation favorite scale there are chips which are being made for high scale their software being tweaked for high scale you as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler as a typical Enterprise you cannot afford to do those things in-house what cloud providers can I'm not saying just AWS Google cloud is there Azure guys are there and few others who are behind them and and you guys are there as well so IBM has IBM by the way congratulations to your red hat I know but IBM won the award um right you know very good partner and yeah but yeah people are dragging their feet people usually do on the change and they are in denial denial they they drag their feet and they came in IBM director feed the cave Den Dell drag their feed the cave in yeah you mean by Dragon vs cloud deniers cloud deniers right so server Huggers I call them but they they actually are sitting in Amazon Cloud Marketplace everybody is buying stuff from there the marketplace is the new model OKAY Amazon created the marketplace for b2c they are leading the marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side and other people are copying it so there are multiple marketplaces now so now actually it's like if you're in in a mobile app development there are two main platforms Android and Apple you first write the application for Apple right then for Android hex same here as a technology provider as and I I and and I actually you put your stuff to AWS first then you go anywhere else yeah they are later yeah the Enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time the question is is Amazon alone the Enterprise app store or are they partner of a of a larger portfolio because there's a lot of SAS companies out there uh that that play into yeah what we need well and this is what you're talking about the future but I just want to make a point about the past you talking about dragging their feet because the Cube's been following this and Stu you remember this in 2013 IBM actually you know got in a big fight with with Amazon over the CIA deal you know and it all became public judge wheeler eviscerated you know IBM and it ended up IBM ended up buying you know soft layer and then we know what happened there and it Joe Tucci thought the cloud was Mosey right so it's just amazing to see we have booksellers you know VMware called them books I wasn't not all of them are like talking about how great Partnerships they are it's amazing like you said sub GC and IBM uh with the the GSI you know Partnership of the year but what you guys were just talking about was the future and that's what I wanted to get to is because you know Amazon's been leading the way I I was listening to Werner this morning and that just reminded me of back in the days when we used to listen to IBM educate us give us a master class on system design and decoupled systems and and IO and everything else now Amazon is you know the master educator and it got me thinking how long will that last you know will they go the way of you know the other you know incumbents will they be disrupted or will they you know keep innovating maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years I don't know yeah I mean Dave you actually you did some research I believe it was a year or so ago yeah but what will stop Amazon and the one thing that worries me a little bit um is the two Pizza teams when you have over 202 Pizza teams the amount of things that each one of those groups needs to take care of was more than any human could take care of people burn out they run out of people how many amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been you know six ten years at Amazon and love it but it is a tough culture and they are driving werner's keynote I thought did look to from a product standpoint you could say tape over some of the seams some of those solutions to bring Beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data so there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations but I still worry structurally culturally there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year bring us home I think the future side like we could talk about the vendors all day right to serve the community out there I think we should talk about how what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side so from the supplier side just a quick note I think the only danger AWS has has that that you know Fred's going after them you know too big you know like we will break you up and that can cause some disruption there other than that I think they they have some more steam to go for a few more years at least before we start thinking about like oh this thing is falling apart or anything like that so they have a lot more they have momentum and it's continuing so okay from the I think game is on retail by the way is going to get disrupted before AWS yeah go ahead from the buyer's side I think um the the future of the sort of Technology consumption is based on the paper uh use and they actually are turning all their services to uh they are sort of becoming serverless behind the scenes right all analytics service they had one service left they they did that this year so every service is serverless so that means you pay exactly for the amount you use the compute the iops the the storage so all these three layers of course Network we talked about the egress stuff and that's a problem there because of the network design mainly because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost so so they are actually squeezing the their their designing this their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer so for example very simple example when early earlier In This Cloud you will get a VM right in Cloud that's how we started so and you can get 20 use 20 percent of the VM 80 is getting wasted that's not happening now that that has been reduced to the most extent so now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked they will charge you otherwise they will not charge you extra so that's why there's still a lot of instances like many different types you have to pick one I think the future is that those instances will go away the the instance will be formed for you on the fly so that is the future serverless all right give us bumper sticker Stu and then Serb G I'll give you my quick one and then we'll wrap yeah so just Dave to play off of sharp G and to wrap it up you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here uh serverless we're talking about how developers think about things um and you know Amazon in many ways you know is the new default server uh you know for the cloud um and containerization fits into the whole serverless Paradigm uh it's the space that I live in uh you know every day here and you know I was happy to see the last few years serverless and containers there's a blurring a line and you know subject we're still going to see VMS for a long time yeah yeah we will see that so give us give us your book Instagram my number six is innovation favorite scale that's my bumper sticker and and Amazon has that but also I I want everybody else to like the viewers to take a look at the the Google Cloud as well as well as IBM with others like maybe you have a better price to Performance there for certain workloads and by the way one vendor cannot do it alone we know that for sure the market is so big there's a lot of room for uh Red Hats of the world and and and Microsoft's the world to innovate so keep an eye on them they we need the competition actually and that's why competition Will Keep Us to a place where Market sets the price one vendor doesn't so the only only danger is if if AWS is a monopoly then I will be worried I think ecosystems are the Hallmark of a great Cloud company and Amazon's got the the biggest and baddest ecosystem and I think the other thing to watch for is Industries building on top of the cloud you mentioned the Goldman Sachs NASDAQ Capital One and Warner media these all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s all right we're a wrap this is Dave Valente I want to first of all thank thanks to our great sponsors AWS for for having us here this is our 10th year at the cube AMD you know sponsoring as well the the the cube here Accenture sponsor to third set upstairs upstairs on the fifth floor all the ecosystem partners that came on the cube this week and supported our mission for free content our content is always free we try to give more to the community and we we take back so go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos go to siliconangle com for all the news wikibon.com I publish weekly a breaking analysis series I want to thank our amazing crew here you guys we have probably 30 35 people unbelievable our awesome last session John Walls uh Paul Gillen Lisa Martin Savannah Peterson John Furrier who's on a plane we appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our our crew Palo Alto Boston and across the country thank you so much really appreciate it all right we are a wrap AWS re invent 2022 we'll see you in two weeks we'll see you two weeks at Palo Alto ignite back here in Vegas thanks for watching thecube the leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage [Music]

>>Welcome back everyone to Cube's live coverage, VMware Explorer, 2022 formerly world. I've been saying now I gotta get that out. Dave, I've been sayingm world. It just kind of comes off the tongue when I'm tired, but you know, wall to wall coverage, again, back to back interviews all day two sets. This is a wrap up here with the analyst discussion. Got one more interview after this really getting the analyst's perspective around what we've been hearing and seeing, observing, and reporting on the cube. Again, two sets blue and green. We call them here on the show floor on Moscone west with the sessions upstairs, two floors of, of amazing content sessions, keynote across ed Moscone, north and south SBI here, cloud strategists with the cube. And of course, what event wouldn't be complete without SBE weighing in on the analysis. And, and, and I'm, you know, all kidding aside. I mean that because we've had great interactions around, you know, digging in you, you're like a roving analyst out there. And what's great about what you do is you're social. You're communicating, you're touching everybody out there, but you're also picking up the puzzle pieces. And we, you know, of course we recognize that cuz that's what we do, but you're out, we're on the set you're out on the floor and you know your stuff and, and you know, clouds. So how you, this is your wheelhouse. Great to see you. Good to >>See you. I'm good guys. Thank you. Thank you for having >>Me. So I mean, Dave and I were riffing going back earlier in this event and even before, during our super cloud event, we're reminded of the old OpenStack days. If you remember, Dave OpenStack was supposed to be the open source version of cloud. And that was a great ambition. And the cloud AATI at that time was very into it because it made a lot of sense. And the vision, all the infrastructure was code. Everything was lined up. Everything was religiously was on the table. Beautiful cloud future. Okay. 20 2009, 2010, where was Amazon? Then they just went off like a rocket ship. So cloud ended up becoming AWS in my opinion. Yeah. OpenStax then settled in, did some great things, but also spawns Kubernetes. Okay. So, you know, we've lived through thiss we've seen this movie. We were actually in the trenches on the front lines present at creation for cloud computing. >>Yeah. I was at Rackspace when the open stack was open sourced. I was there in, in the rooms and discussions and all that. I think OpenStack was given to the open source like prematurely. I usually like we left a toddler on the freeway. No, the toddler >>Got behind the wheel. Can't see over the dashboard. >>So we have learned over the years in last two decades, like we have seen the open source rise of open source and we have learned quite a few lessons. And one lesson we learned from there was like, don't let a project go out in the open, tell it mature enough with one vendor. So we did that prematurely with NASA, NASA and Rackspace gave the, the code from two companies to the open source community and then likes of IBM and HPE. No. Now HPE, they kind of hijacked the whole thing and then put a lot of developers on that. And then lot of us sort of second tier startup. >>But, but, but I remember not to interject, but at that time there wasn't a lot of pushback for letting them it wasn't like they infiltrated like a, the vendors always tried to worry about vendors coming in open source, but at that time was pretty people accepted them. And then it got off the rails. Then you remember the great API debate. You >>Called it a hail Mary to against AWS, which is, is what it was, what it was. >>It's true. Yeah. Ended up being right. But the, the battle started happening when you started seeing the network perimeters being discussed, you starting to see some of the, in the trenches really important conversations around how to make essentially cross cloud or super cloud work. And, and again, totally premature it continue. And, and what does that mean today? So, okay. Is VMware too early on their cross cloud? Are they, is multi-cloud ready? >>No >>For, and is it just vaporware? >>No, they're not too early, actually on, on, on, on that side they were premature to put that out there, but this is like very mature company, like in the ops area, you know, we have been using, we VMware stuff since 2000 early 2000. I, I was at commerce one when we started using it and yeah, it was for lab manager, you know, like, you know, put the labs >>Out desktop competition. >>Yeah, yeah. Kind of thing. So it, it matured pretty fast, but now it it's like for all these years they focused on the op site more. Right. And then the challenge now in the DevOps sort of driven culture, which is very hyped, to be honest with you, they have try and find a place for developers to plug in on the left side of the sort of whole systems, life cycle management sort of line, if you will. So I think that's a, that's a struggle for, for VMware. They have to figure that out. And they are like a tap Tansu application platform services. They, they have released a new version of that now. So they're trying to do that, but still they are from the sort of get ups to the, to the right, from that point to the right on the left side. They're lot more tooling to helpers use as we know, but they are very scattered kind of spend and scattered technology on the left side. VMware doesn't know how to tackle that. But I think, I think VMware should focus on the right side from the get ups to the right and then focus there. And then how in the multi-cloud cross cloud. >>Cause my sense is, they're saying, Hey, look, we're not gonna own the developers. I think they know that. And they think they're saying do develop in whatever world you want to develop in will embrace it. And then the ops guys, we, we got you covered, we got the standards, we have the consistency and you're our peeps. You tend then take it, you know, to, to the market. Is that not? I mean, it seems like a viable strategy. I >>Mean, look at if you're VMware Dave and start, you know, this where they are right now, the way they missed the cloud. And they had to reboot that with jazzy and, and, and Raghu to do the databases deal. It's essentially VMware hosted on AWS and clients love it cuz it's clarity. Okay. It's not vCloud air. So, so if you're them right now, you seeing yourself, wow. We could be the connective tissue between all clouds. We said this from day one, when Kubernetes was hitting in the scene, whoever can make this, the interoperability concept of inter clouding and connect clouds so that there could be spanning of applications and data. We didn't say data, but we said, you know, creating that nice environment of multiple clouds. Okay. And again, in concept, that sounds simple, but if you're VMware, you could own that abstraction layer. So do you own it or do you seed the base and let it become a defacto organization? Like a super layer, super pass layer and then participate in it? Or are you the middleware yourself? We heard AJ Patel say that. So, so they could be the middleware for at all. >>Aren't they? The infrastructure super cloud. I mean, that's what they're trying to be. >>Yeah. I think they're trying, trying to do that. It's it's I, I, I have said that many times VMware is bridged to the cloud, right? >>The sorry. Say bridge to >>The cloud. Yeah. Right. For, for enterprises, they have virtualized environments, mostly on VMware stacks. And another thing is I wanna mention touch on that is the number of certified professionals on VMware stack. There it's a huge number it's in tens of thousands. Right? So people who have got these certifications, they want to continue that sort of journey. They wanna leverage that. It's like, it's a Sunco if they don't use that going forward. And that was my question to, to during the press release yesterday, like are there new certifications coming into the, into the limelight? I, I think the VMware, if they're listening to me here somewhere, they will listen. I guess they should introduce a, a cross cloud certification for their stack because they want to be cross cloud or multi-cloud sort of vendor with one sort of single pane. So does actually Cisco and so do many others. But I think VMware is in a good spot. It's their market to lose. I, I, I call it when it comes to the multi-cloud for enterprise, especially for the legacy applications. >>Well, they're not, they have the enterprise they're super cloud enabler, Dave for the, for the enterprise, cuz they're not hyperscaler. Okay. They have all the enterprise customers who come here, we see them, we speak to them. We know them will mingle, but >>They have really good relationships with all the >>Hyperscale. And so those, those guys need a way to the cloud in a way that's cloud operation though. So, so if you say enterprises need their own super cloud, I would say VMware might wanna raise their hands saying we're the vendor to provide that. Yes, totally. And then that's the middleware role. So middleware isn't your classic stack middleware it's middle tissue. So you got, it's not a stack model anymore. It's completely different. >>Maybe, maybe my, my it's >>Not a stack >>Industry. Maybe my industry super cloud is too aspirational, but so let's assume for a second. You're not gonna have everybody doing their own clouds, like Goldman Sachs and, and capital one, even though we're seeing some evidence of that, even in that case, connecting my on-prem to the cloud and modernizing my application stack and, and having some kind of consistency between your on-prem and it's just call it hybrid, like real hybrid, true hybrid. They should dominate that. I mean, who is who, if it's not it's VMware and it's what red hat who else? >>I think red hat wants it too. >>Yeah. Well, red hat and red, hat's doing it with IBM consulting and they gotta be, they have great advantage there for all the banks. Awesome. But what, what about the other 500,000 customers that are >>Out there? If VMware could do what they did with the hypervisor, with virtualization and create the new thing for super cloud, AKA connecting clouds together. That's a, that's a holy grail move right >>There. But what about this PA layer? This Tansu and area which somebody on Twitter, there was a little SNAR come that's V realized just renamed, which is not. I mean, it's, it's from talking to Raghu unless he's just totally BSing us, which I don't think he is. That's not who he is. It's this new federated architecture and it's this, their super PAs layer and, and, and it's purpose built for what they're trying to do across clouds. This is your wheelhouse. What, what do you make of that? >>I think Tansu is a great effort. They have put in lot of other older products under that one umbrella Tansu is not a product actually confuses the heck out of the market. That it's not a product. It's a set of other products put under one umbrella. Now they have created another umbrella term with the newer sort of, >>So really is some yeah. >>Two >>Umbrella on there. So it's what it's pivotal. It's vRealize it's >>Yeah. We realize pivotal and, and, and older stack, actually they have some open source components in there. So, >>So they claim that this ragus claim, it's this new architecture, this new federated architecture graph database, low latency, real time ingestion. Well, >>AJ, AJ that's AJ's department, >>It sounded good. I mean, this is that >>Actually I think the newer, newer stuff, what they announced, that's very promising because it seems like they're building something from scratch. So, >>And it won't be, it won't be hardened for, but, but >>It won't be hardened for, but, >>But those, but they have a track record delivering. I mean, they gotta say that about yeah. >>They're engineering focus company. They have engineering culture. They're their software engineers are top. Not top not, >>Yes. >>What? >>Yeah. It's all relatives. If they, if the VMware stays the way they are. Well, >>Yeah, >>We'll get to that a second. What >>Do you mean? What are you talking >>About? They don't get gutted >>The elephant in the room if they don't get gutted and then, then we'll see it happens there. But right now I love, we love VMware. We've been covering them for 12 years and we've seen the trials, not without their own issues to work on. I mean, everyone needs to work on stuff, but you know, world class, they're very proud of their innovation, but I wanna ask you, what was your observations walking around the floor, talking to people? What was the sense of the messaging? Is it real in their minds? Are they leaning in, are they like enthused? Are they nervous, apprehensive? How would you categorize the attitude of the folks here that you've talked to or observed? >>Yeah. It at the individual product level, like the people are very confident what they're building, what they're delivering, but when it comes to the telling a cohesive story, if you go to all the VMware booth there, like it's hard to find anybody who can tell what, what are all the services under tens and how they are interconnected and what facilities they provide or they can't. They, I mean, most of the people who are there, they can are walking through the economic side of things, like how it will help you save money or, or how the TCR ROI will improve. They are very focused on because of the nature of the company, right. They're very focused on the technology only. So I think that that's the, that's what I learned. And another sort of gripe or negative I have about VMware is that they have their product portfolio is so vast and they are even spreading more thinly. And they're forced to go to the left towards developers because of the sheer force of hyperscalers. On one side on the, on the right side, they are forced to work with hyperscalers to do more like ops related improvements. They didn't mention AI or, or data. >>Yeah. Data storage management. >>That that was weak. That's true. During the, the keynote as well. >>And they didn't mention security and their security story, strong >>Security. I think they mentioned it briefly very briefly, very briefly. But I think their SCO story is good actually, but no is they didn't mention it properly, I guess. >>Yeah. There wasn't prominent in the keynote. It was, you know, and again, I understand why data wasn't P I, they wanted to say about data, >>Didn't make room for the developer story. I think this was very much a theatrical maneuver for Hawk and the employee morale and the ecosystem morale, Dave, then it had to do with the nuts bolt of security. They can come back to get that security. In my opinion, you know, I, I don't think that was as bad of a call as bearing the vSphere, giving more demos, which they did do later. But the keynote I thought was, was well done as targeted for all the negative sentiment around Broadcom and Broadcom had this, the acquisition agreement that they're, they are doing, they agree >>Was well done. I mean, >>You know, if I VMware, I would've done the same thing, look at this is a bright future. We're given that we're look at what we got. If you got this, it's on you. >>And I agree with you, but the, the, again, I don't, I don't see how you can't make security front and center. When it is the number one issue for CIOs, CSOs, CSOs boards or directors, they just, it was a miss. They missed it. Yeah. Okay. And they said, oh, well, there's only so much time, but, and they had to put the application development focus on there. I get that. But >>Another thing is, I think just keynote is just one sort of thing. One moment in this whole sort of continuous period, right. They, I think they need to have that narrative, like messaging done periodically, just like Amazon does, you know, like frequent events tapping into the practitioners on regional basis. They have to do that. Maybe it's a funding issue. Maybe it is some weakness on the, no, >>I think they planning, I talked to, we talked to the CMO and she said, Explorer is gonna be a road show. They're gonna go international with, it's gonna take a global, they're gonna have a lot of wood behind the arrow. They're gonna spend a lot of money on Explorer is what, they're, what we're seeing. And that's a good thing. You got a new brand, you gotta build it. >>You know, I would've done, I would've had, I would've had a shorter keynote on day one and doing, and then I would've done like a security day, day two. I would've dedicated the whole morning, day two keynote to security cuz their stories I think is that strong? >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And I don't know the developers side of things. I think it's hard for VMware to go too much to the left. The spend on the left is very scattered. You know, if you notice the tools, developers change their tools on freaking monthly basis, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to sustain that they on the very left side and the, the, the >>It's hard for companies like VMware to your point. And then this came up in super cloud and ins Rayme mentioned that developers drive everything, the patterns, what they like and you know, the old cliche meet them where they are. You know, honestly, this is kind of what AJ says is the right they're doing. And it's the right strategy meeting that develops where they are means give them something that they like. They like self-service they like to try stuff. They like to, they don't like it. They'll throw it away. Look at the success that comes like data, dog companies like that have that kind of offering with freemium and self-service to, to continue the wins versus jamming the tooling down their throat and selling >>Totally self-serve infrastructure for the, in a way, you know, you said they missed cloud, which they did V cloud air. And then they thought of got it. Right. It kind of did the same thing with pivotal. Right. It was almost like they forced to take pivotal, you know, by pivotal, right. For 2 billion or whatever it was. All right. Do something with it. Okay. We're gonna try to do something with it and they try to go out and compete. And now they're saying, Hey, let's just open it up. Whatever they want to use, let 'em use it. So unlike and I said this yesterday, unlike snowflake has to attract developers to build on their unique platform. Okay. I think VMware's taken a different approach saying use whatever you want to use. We're gonna help the ops guys. And that, to me, a new op >>Very sensitive, >>The new ops, the new ops guys. Yes. Yes. >>I think another challenge on the right right. Is on, on the op site is like, if, if you are cloud native, you are a new company. You just, when you're a startup, you are cloud native, right. Then it's hard for VMware to convince them to, Hey, you know, come to us and use this. Right. It's very hard. It is. They're a good play for a while. At least they, they can prolong their life by innovating along the way because of the, the skills gravity, I call it of the developers and operators actually that's their, they, they have a loyal community they have and all that stuff. And by the way, the name change for the show. I think they're trying to get out of that sort of culty kind of nature of the, their communities that they force. The communities actually can force the companies, not to do certain things certain way. And I've seen that happening. And >>Well, I think, I think they're gonna learn and they already walked back their messaging. Not that they said anything overtly, but you know, the Lori, the CMO clarified this significantly, which was, they never said that they wanted to replace VM world. Although the name change implies that. And what they re amplified after the fact is that this is gonna be a continuation of the community. And so, you know, it's nuanced, they're splitting hairs, but that's, to me walking back the, you know, the, the loyalty and, and look at let's face it. Anytime you have a loyal community, you do anything of change. People are gonna be bitching and moaning. Yeah. >>But I mean, knew, worked, explore, >>Work. It wasn't bad at all. It was not a bad look. It wasn't disastrous call. Okay. Not at all. I'm critical of the name change at first, but the graphics are amazing. They did an exceptional job on the branding. They did, did an exceptional job on how they handled the new logo, the new name, the position they, and a lot of people >>Showed >>Up. Yeah. It worked >>A busy busier than all time >>It worked. And I think they, they threaded the needle, given everything they had going on. I thought the event team did an exceptional job here. I mean, just really impressive. So hats up to the event team at, at VMware pulling off now, did they make profit? I don't know. It doesn't matter, you know, again, so much going on with Broadcom, but here being in Moscone west, we see people coming down the stairs here, Dave's sessions, you know, lot of people, a lot of buzz on the content sold out sessions. So again, that's the ecosystem. The people giving the talks, you know, the people in the V brown bag, you know, got the, the V tug. They had their meeting, you know, this week here, >>Actually the, the, the red hat, the, the integration with the red hat is another highlight of, of, they announced that, that you can run that style >>OpenShift >>And red hats, not here, >>Red hat now here, but yeah, but, but, but >>It was more developers, more, you know, >>About time. I would say, why, why did it take so long? That should >>Have happened. All right. Final question. So what's the bottom line. Give us the summary. What's your take, what's your analysis of VMware explore the event, what they did, what it means, what it's gonna mean when the event's over, what's gonna happen. >>I think VMware with the VMware Explorer have bought the time with the messaging. You know, they have promised certain things with newer announcements and now it, it, it is up to them to deliver that in a very sort of fast manner and build more hooks into other sort of platforms. Right? So that is very important. You cannot just be closed system people. Don't like those systems. You have to be part of the ecosystem. And especially when you are sitting on top of the actually four or four or more public clouds, Alibaba cloud was, they were saying that they're the only VMware is only VMware based offering in mainland China on top of the Alibaba. And they, they can go to other ones as well. So I think, especially when they're sitting on top of other cloud providers, they have to build hooks into other platforms. And if they can build a marketplace of their own, that'll be even better. I think they, >>And they've got the ecosystem for it. I mean, you saw it last night. I mean, all the, all the parties were hopping. I mean, there was, there's >>A lot of buzz. I mean, I pressed, I pressed them Dave hard. I had my little, my zingers. I wanted to push the buttons on one question that was targeted towards the answer of, are they gonna try to do much more highly competitive maneuvering, you know, get that position in the middleware. Are they gonna be more aggressive with frontal competitiveness or are they gonna take the, the strategy of open collaborative and every single data point points to collaborative totally hit Culbert. I wanna do out in the open. We're not just not, we're not one company. So I think that's the right play. If they came out and said, we're gonna be this, you know? >>Yeah. The one, the last thing, actually, the, the one last little idea I'm putting out out there since I went to the Dell world, was that there's a economics of creation of software. There's economics of operations of software. And they are very good on the operation economics of operations side of things that when I say economics, it doesn't mean money only. It also means a productivity practitioner, growth. Everything is in there. So I think these vendors who are not hyperscalers, they have to distinguish these two things and realize that they're very good on the right side economics of operations. And, and that will go a long way. Actually. I think they muddy the waters by when DevOps, DevOps, and then it's >>Just, well, I think Dave, we always we've had moments in time over the past 12 years covering VMware's annual conference, formally world now floor, where there were moments of that's pat Gelsinger, spinal speech. Yeah. And I remember he was under a siege of being fired. Yeah. There was a point in time where it was touch and go, and then everything kind of came together. That was a moment. I think we're at a moment in time here with VMware Dave, where we're gonna see what Broadcom does, because I think what hop 10 and Broadcom saw this week was an EBI, a number on the table that they know they can probably get or squeeze. And then they saw a future value and net present value of future state that you could, you gotta roll back and do the analysis saying, okay, how much is it worth all this new stuff worth? Is that gonna contribute to the EBITDA number that they want on the number? So this is gonna be a very interesting test because VMware did it, an exceptional job of laying out that they got some jewels in the oven. You >>Think about how resilient this company has been. I mean, em, you know, EMC picked them up for a song. It was 640 million or whatever it was, you know, about the public. And then you, another epic moment you'll recall. This was when Joe Tuchi was like the mafia Don up on stage. And Michael Dell was there, John Chambers with all the ecosystem CEOs and there was Tucci. And then of course, Michael Dell ends up owning this whole thing, right? I mean, when John Chambers should have owned the whole thing, I mean, it's just, it's been incredible. And then Dell uses VMware as a piggy bank to restructure its balance sheet, to pay off the EMC debt and then sells the thing for $60 billion. And now it's like, okay, we're finally free of all this stuff. Okay. Now Broadcom's gonna buy you. And, >>And if Michael Dell keeps all in stock, he'll be the largest shareholder of Broadcom and own it off. >>Well, and that's probably, you know, that's a good question is, is it's gonna, it probably a very tax efficient transaction. If he takes all stock and then he can, you know, own against it. I mean, that's, that's, >>That's what a history we're gonna leave it there. Start be great to have you Dave great analysis. Okay. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, winding down after the short break.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

[Music] hello welcome to this cube conversation i'm john furrier the palo alto studios for the cube i'm your host here with jeremy burton who's the ceo of observe inc just launched their product they launched their company before that they're doing great jeremy great to see you oh no thanks uh always great to be back on yeah there's there's certainly a lot going on the start of my day job which is running observing my night job which is uh obviously working with uh snowflake and it's not great to see both going on at the same time you've done very well with the snowflake relationship being a board member and all and being in that ecosystem and a lot of people are doing well in this shift you're part of it again you're on the inside but also now on the outside building a business and it's exciting because it's highly competitive it's a big category and it's really moving fast so give us a quick update on what's going on in the landscape and your recent launch you just had yeah i mean i i think most businesses be the you know new businesses cloud native businesses as we call it upon in the cloud businesses are old um that they're really uh trying to deliver like new services to reach customers and it's harder for an incumbent business because they've got to do a lot of reinvention or modernization or i guess the term de jure is digitization um and ultimately a lot of that means writing they've got to start writing software again you know it comes naturally maybe to the newer companies uh the sas companies uh but the biggest of the big have got you know really got to start riding software again and and as they push a new code into production every day they've got to make sure it works and so this new market for observability i think really uh helps people troubleshoot problems with this you know these new applications um and the goal obviously is to make sure that you know you avoid customer churn and any kind of a bad experience which um i think is what every sas company dreads um you know it's a big problem you know getting all these metrics in one place is really key i want to get into your launch 2.0 yeah we could bring in dave vellante my co-host was thecube always a favorite to bring on the analysis i know dave dug in heavily on the launch dave good to see you we'll get you hey guys how are you doing how are you doing jeremy good to see you yeah john i mean jeremy your your first launch was was really a company launch right and now now you're given the the product update so what do we need to know yeah so we i mean you're right when we first went out it was sort of like this is observing this is what observability um is we we sort of glossed over a lot of product details because i think like a lot of startups we you know we had a chunk of initial functionality but we knew there was a lot missing and so so previously you know in the last six months since we did that announcement we're now trying to you know fill out the product and a couple of the big features that we knew we needed um i mean one was metrics um and although we've always been able to ingest metrics uh most people maybe know you know time series type data we hadn't built all of the functionality you know in our language or in the user interface for the user to be able to manipulate them um so that was a big lift um which we got done and then and very closely related once you've got metrics the next thing people want to do is they want to start alerting on things hey tell me when this metric is is out of whack and one of our sort of big differentiators are one of the things that we always bring to bear on any kind of data we manage is to link data together so we're always trying to provide more context for the data that the user's looking at so metrics and alerts they sort of tie into our core value prop of being able to relate data jeremy if i don't mind you don't mind ask answering i'd like to get your take on this because one question i ask all these analytics companies is yeah data's great data lakes and it's all good about getting the data in this kind of environment but most people just want to shape the data and they want to just get insights out of it fast they don't want to they don't want to do a lot of prep they want to have it in position whether it's querying it or just having it available and sometimes it's not always there so they're constantly reshaping it and so the idea of just shaping it and making getting some insights which is basically quickly distill out of it turns into i got to reshape i got to go back to the well if you will or the lake in this case and pull out the data how are you guys solving that because this is like the um the simple construct make it easy yeah it's funny i mean even going right back to data warehouse in days of old the big frustration is is etl right it was so painful to transform the data into the right shape to get into the database i mean some of these projects i mean i think like 70 of those projects never even completed um the the big big difference now and certainly a lot of the data we deal with is it's unstructured inherently it's generated by machines we we just sort of dump it all into observe and then we let users pause it on the fly and so it can be one shape one day in a different shape the next and then we'll we'll backfill all of the data automatically into the new shape that the users define so these systems have really got to be set up to do um like ad hoc analysis you know when if you only did a couple of updates to your application uh a year the the environment wasn't that dynamic it didn't change very much and most of the problems you saw you you've seen before and now with code changing every day the application looks different every day so the issues that you see look different every day so it's really really important that these systems are incredibly dynamic and don't get locked into one particular shape from the get-go jeremy you you took a somewhat different approach i mean a lot of companies in this space will choose to do like a purpose-built database specifically for observability and metrics and so forth and that that's talking about a heavy lift that could take take many years you're choosing to put your emphasis do your heavy lift elsewhere yeah that obviously gives you a time to market advantage can you talk a little bit about that philosophy and what that gets you yeah it was probably one of the biggest decisions that we made when we founded observe was was do we build our own database like almost everyone who'd gone before um or do we go with a commercial offering and when we first started building against snowflake three years ago we we did we weren't actually sure it could do what we wanted to do and so it was one of the biggest areas of technical risk um but certainly at this point we've got ourselves very comfortable that it's going to be able to do what we need it to and it saves us building a database and uh i mean like this week at the snowflake summit i think snowflake just announced an additional 30 compression on data it's like okay so we did nothing and now you know all of those folks who are sending terabytes a day to us they get an extra 30 compression and and so that's the value of building on a commercial platform you know snowflake has got 300 engineers working away on on their database and they deliver benefits to us and we focus on the application so we know obviously frank we talk to him all the time and he's unequivocal about your cloud we're not doing a halfway house we're not doing on-prem but you're i'm sure familiar with the uh the a16z narrative from from an uh from from martin casado and sarah wong basically the premise for those of you don't know is you know for startups and as you're growing cloud is a no-brainer but at scale it becomes fifty percent of your cost of revenue it becomes uh an albatross to your operating leverage what do you think about that do you buy that uh do you ever see like a snowflake going going back on prem what's your thoughts on that i mean i feel like yeah i mean we used to put wells in our back gardens and generators in our basement and you know they're cheaper too right but the problem is i've got to dig a freaking well right and and then what am i not doing while i'm digging my well and and so i i don't know i i mean i get the general premise but i don't want half the company going and building not just like a database all of the infrastructure that's underneath why because it's not what our customers pay for like if we can add more value on top of that platform we can charge more so it's sort of like well if all those companies had actually started out building their own infrastructure and everything would they have would they have built the application experience that made them successful i mean you so the the i mean i i get the paper i think it's very very well written i'm just i'm just not sure it's a big distraction like we don't care about the underlying infrastructure we just want it to be there you know and you know and if we were doing that then we might observe might not be as good as it currently is you know well i think it's a question to me john is where's the customer value is the customer value in you know the valuation of the company or is it in what you can deliver and how fast you can hold on let me just put context to martin casado's little thing there it's the paradox um paper so there's a paradox there and his thesis is do you focus on cost of goods sold or do you drive more revenue and his whole part point was at some point you got to look at the cost right and and i then weaved into i hit him up on twitter immediately and i said oh so you must have a bunch of companies who aren't growing right so so because if you look at what's going on the mckinsey paper we covered this at our last startup event startup event is that the companies that are driving new revenue it's coming from a lot of re-platforming and refactoring but also net new use cases so a lot of clients are making more money by introducing new products so so that's a new revenue so you you are either going to be on one side of the paradox you're going to be inside of i'd rather refactor for new revenue yeah then save money by reducing costs so i still think we haven't cleared the runway on this growth so i think there's plenty of trillions left to create so i'm on the side of i'm on the side of you know if you're worried about pennies in the cloud to the well point that jeremy mentioned then you might either look at other things yeah it's about growth i mean i feel certainly younger companies and and observe and i mean also snowflake that we were just talking about i mean uh the snowpack announcement this week of going and running spark jobs well yeah they could do that or they could go build a data center i mean to reduce costs and to me um the right call is to do more with customers data um and and the the i don't know the somewhat um i mean the counterpoint to that would be well let's make it a more profitable business but you know to me that doesn't add up for the majority of new companies jeremy how should we look uh i'm gonna ask how should we think about this space because you have you got guys like splunk that have been doing log analytics for a while now you got you got the elk stack coming in with an open source and you know it's it's open source but it also brings complexity you've got big players now like cisco who's made you know the apple the acquisition of appd you've got kind of who's now a legacy a new relic we talked about purpose-built databases before so everybody's coming at this from all different sides how do you think about it look at it and where do you fit yeah i think you've got the big players i mean you've you've named quite a few of them then and and look most of my career i've i've been on that side right and and typically what you do as a big company is it's harder to innovate and so you use your balance sheet for innovation you go buy innovation and and then you try and integrate and um that that i mean it's very very doable and um but it just takes a long time and the risk is that as you integrate you're never really getting your architecture on a solid foot and you're sort of band-aiding things together and we're selling multiple things to the same customer versus really coming back to first principles and saying well how should this really have been built so i actually tend to worry a little bit less about the bigger companies um and then look there's a set of startups that have from like observed from first principles thought well if we were to build a system to to look at all the telemetry data that applications and infrastructure generate then then how would we do it um so you know we certainly uh banking on the fact that the more modern architecture um as time goes by because i still think we're you know we're in in baseball terms we're probably in the first inning still of observability um that that modern architecture will will come to bear over time we'll be able to do things that the other guys won't be able to do and and one of those is actually the simple task of relating data you know why because all of our data is in one place and it's in a relational database you know it's it's that simple i think one of the things that's worth calling out and it's pointing out is that you guys are also on the snowflake so you you're riding that wave to your point about i which i agree with by the way you're in you're focusing on innovation not kind of moving the deck chairs around on stuff but i want to get a question about this event you had because one of the things that you guys are becoming known for is to eliminate the headaches for sres and devops engineers who have been conditioned to accept you know the old ways of kind of handcrafting and the people who do it first tend to be the most bloody when they when they come out of it but as it becomes easier right and we discovered this at the red hat summit dave and jeremy is that this notion of an sre is becoming more prominent in engineering schools and computer science programs as kind of replacement for it i don't mean like i t is dead but like it's turning into ai ops git ups whatever people want to call it it's cloud native so the notion of an sre is on the teams of these modern development teams so you're seeing this end-to-end workflow visibility so so that means that if they're going to have that they're going to have these new team members sres and dev and sec together and they need the data so this is where you guys are and i think you guys hit this and correct me if i'm wrong if you don't mind explaining how does that the observability equation change when the teams change because teams are changing in the modern architecture yeah i mean it's it's it's probably a cliche but the the you know there's tooling and then this process change and as as as people move to things like continuous delivery um they get maniacally focused on uh delivery of of new features and new capabilities to the customer and then focused on the experience that the customers have in and i think the you know the role of the sre becomes critical because they try and understand not just what the customer is doing with the application but the problems that the customer is experiencing and that's going to work hand in glove you know with the engineering team who ultimately is going to implement the new features that the customers want and one of our sort of big missions here is to is to lessen the burden on the devops team which has been providing essentially infrastructure and tooling for for the sre and engineering teams to use right now they're overwhelmed to deliver just the basics and candidly the engineering and sre teams are not not happy with what's been delivered so we if we can lighten the burden on the devops team you should then get a richer experience for the sre and engineering teams for them to do ultimately what they want to do which is customer satisfaction and and engage their customers uh in in new ways and and there's just the quality of what is surface to those teams right now is just not very good because it's hard so jeremy you mentioned the first innings your uniforms are still white you you got the starting picture how's it how's it feeling how's the arm feel what's the early customer interactions like where are you getting traction yeah it's it's been interesting because um you know when you start with no customers i mean obviously we've been on the wall here at work our first customer 2500 bucks and i've never been so thrilled to get a sales order for twenty five hundred dollars um but no it it it's we we've targeted largely sas companies uh or tech tech centric companies and and one of the guys that we're going to be highlighting is uh topgolf which um i'm sure anyone who's been there and and you know enjoys going and hitting a golf ball around and playing angry birds but um look they're a tech centric company um customer experience for them is everything they're not in the in the it business per se but it enables them to deliver these amazing customer experiences and so you know when they've got issues when they need to troubleshoot problems they need to do it quickly and and so we tend to you know help those kind of companies um improve the experience they're providing um but yeah we've got about 20 paying customers so far um it's it's it's very different actually getting a customer paying you money versus a sort of friend a family member said yeah i'll give that a whirl um you know it certainly should happens the point on the feedback and and really that's what we need right now i mean i think every startup strives to get to what we call market fit which is can we sell this product repeatedly to thousands of customers um i don't think we're quite there yet but we certainly have got the volume of customers and the feedback coming back to engineering that that you know can get we know what to bill put it that way to get us to that point well smart what you do when you're starting with the sas companies the service providers you so you're not you know you're not jumping off the cliff into the enterprise for every custom deal you know get the product market fit and then understand the retention and then expand your tam from there yeah yeah you try and build a solid foundation and you know when you go to the enterprise you're going to need features like role-based access control and more of the manageability capabilities but you know if you were to build all of that out first then you wouldn't know whether you've got a compelling experience for an sre or an engineering team and so what you tend to do is is defer a lot of the management type capabilities try and build compelling features when you see the features are compelling then you sort of build out the supporting infrastructure that allows you to go to bigger companies so it's uh i mean it it the enterprise is what i've always dealt in sort of enterprise software is it's it's not easy um and and my old boss joe tucci had a great saying on this like you know if you're in a hurry take a bit more time and i think that that's sort of our mantra right now we're in a hurry everyone wants to go but like if we don't get the product right it'll it'll bite us later yeah the other expression in the enterprise is everyone makes it all complicated and everything it's all too complicated um which is the enterprise if it's not complicated they make it more complicated right so uh welcome to the edge too now there's every huge there's every edge case you can think of which is why you've got to be careful early on because we we can't afford we don't have time to deal with edge cases we've got to deal with you know what's up the power alley and then once we've got that going then you can start to deal with more of the edge cases yeah we're in the same boat on our end too jeremy i'd like to get uh to end the segment here by giving a quick update and recap of uh the event real quick and what you guys are doing as a company and and what you did at the launch and where your sweet spot is what are you looking for the what's the type of customers that you're looking for right now what is that power alley that you're focused on yeah three to four thousand sas companies in in north america is where we're after um and we tend to help folks on more efficient troubleshooting of applications we help them with tool consolidation um and we help them with security audit and compliance so there if you like the the key use cases that our initial customers have brought us into and um yeah we started off really focusing on on logging and log analytics and then you know yesterday we added to that you know the metrics the time series data analysis um and also the alerting and and we've also got really running in-house the the more apm-like visualizations around tracing so maybe a little bit of a hint at what's coming up later this year yeah i want to get your thoughts too there's been some commentary on twitter like you know we want to get things simpler a little bit more calmer i think there's a comment like it's not the mid we want more of the midwest vibe not so much that the coastal elite silicon valley shiny new toy yeah what's your take on that because it's culturally the shift people want to reduce the tools i mean they got the tool shed of you know every single tool that's been shipped every company comes out is selling a tool don't be the don't be a fool with a tool as the as the expression says no no if we're not careful observability we can define it to be this nichey thing and and you know in silicon valley out here it's probably the worst because there's almost this attitude of well i'm not sure you're smart enough to do observability you're doing it all wrong and our approach i think and i think the market in general wants like they've got issues and our approach needs to be well give show us what you're doing today give us the data that you're generating today we'll make that better and then we'll show you where the blind spots are and so you can have a much more iterative approach to getting to that desired end goal but we've got to stop defining observability as almost this this niche that silicon valley companies uh use i mean i i always joke that we want more of our customers watching netflix not listening to engineers from netflix explain observability yeah david call the flyover enterprise now it's a new category of enterprise yeah i i i i want to encourage people to go check out the the launch it's i presume it's up on your website jeremy so not the typical mumbo jumbo you guys have a lot of fun you started off you're like what and it's it's just it's pretty hilarious and then you know you get into the meat of it but so good job on that yeah thanks yeah we had a local san francisco comedian uh and that helped us out she was awesome i think and i think it's been a software engineer at uh surveymonkey back in the days right right always great stuff jeremy thanks for coming on thecube thanks for the update and uh we'll see you around see you in real life soon very soon great thanks guys always a pleasure to be on okay it's thecube conversation i'm john furrier dave vellante on analysis on this cube conversation segment soon we'll be in real life we'll be at mobile world congress for our first physical event in a long long time first event since 2019 for mobile world congress a lot has changed since that time and we'll be on there for the first hybrid event and then we have two more hybrid events coming up as well adf's reinforced as well as ada's reinvent cube virtual and cube physical all together stay with us thanks for watching [Music] you

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a NetApp storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and these business applications, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SaaS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud then come compute, Kubernetes. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a ETAP storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and this business App again, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SAS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud and encompass compute whoever it is. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special Cube Conversation, I'm John Furrier join Dave Vellante for a special report and analysis on the Dell technologies VMware spin out transaction, contemplation, story, circulating rumors, thanks for joining. Dave, great to see you. Yesterday we filmed a Zoom, I was at home, you were in the office. We had to get the story out for the hot take on the news at Dell technologies is spinning out VMware. We had a lot of hot takes, you got some amendments to make but one of the things that came out of was that we, after we had the interview, we said look let's just go get some more data so I went out off on my own, you went off on your own to get some digging, get some data and get some reporting on this, investigate this further. Here's what I've found. I've heard a rumor and have confirmed from a great source that Michael Dell isn't selling so the story's off. Which would mean our half hour analysis is off. But I also got some data that points to some of the other things that we said are consistent. So one, I want to get your thoughts. The rumor that I'm hearing is that Dell is not selling, from my sources. What are you hearing? >> Yeah I think there's a different take here, John. I mean everybody assumed when the press release came out in the 13D that Dell was spinning off its stake, people inferred from that that they were selling. And I think in fact this is not a sale. I think everybody was wrong about that. I think in fact what Dell is going to do is distribute its stake, it's 81% stake to shareholders and so to Dell shareholders and of course what's going to happen is Michael Dell owns a very large portion of Dell technologies. I think by recollection it's over 60% and as a result he's the largest shareholder of Dell and he's that 81% is going to get distributed to the Dell shareholders, so he's going to end up with more than half of the ownership of VMware all said and done. So Michael Dell is I think ultimately going to have more than half of the ownership of Dell Technologies, I think it's 65%, probably 63, 65% somewhere in there by my recollection and he's going to end up with more than 51% of VMware, John and so you're going to have. I mean it would make sense wouldn't it that the majority shareholder is going to be chairman of both companies. >> And so you've talked to a bunch of people on this, is that right? So just to get some background, where'd you? >> Yeah I think some people on Wall Street have figured this out but it's definitely not hit the main stream news. I think if you read the news, you read the register I mean essentially we made the same inference that Dell was becoming untethered to VMware. I don't think that's happening at all. Also, I've talked to a number of customers, John about this, asking them what they thought about the news yesterday and there was a big shrug. I mean I talked to one customer, said hey you know in the old days I bought block from EMC, I bought file from NetApp, they both made great products, they both were VMware friendly, this doesn't affect me one bit. And other customers I talked to said yeah I don't really see any big change here. And I don't think anything's going to change. I think if Michael Dell is the chairman of both companies, I don't think anything changes. >> Alright so to correct what we had, our hot take which was untethering, spinning out VMware implying that there's going to be an untethering or VMware can make it on their own which I think our analysis was right on on the value of VMware. So I stand by that report no problem, it's the specifics of Dell Technologies appearing as if they're unloading it okay. So that's the nuance here. >> That's right. >> So the nuance is Michael Dell actually is going to maintain staying in control, he's not going anywhere. That's what you're just saying. Is that true? >> Yeah, picture the block diagrams you got Dell over here and inside of Dell you have 81% ownership of VMware and over here you have VMware and essentially what Dell is doing is saying okay all you Dell shareholders, we're going to allow you to now directly own those VMware shares and so they're going to transfer essentially from owning Dell to owning VMware directly, of course Michael Dell now is going to own VMware directly as opposed to owning it through his ownership of Dell. As a result, it cleans up the hair on this conglomerate structure which means it's, and you've seen it in the stock market today in the last month, it's unlocking value for Dell, it's unlocking value for VMware. John, on June 22nd, prior to the Wall Street Journal breaking that they were contemplating this, Dell's core value, in other words, the value net of VMware was around negative 23 billion, today it's negative 4 billion so they've already compressed about 20 billion dollars out of that negative value and that's the arbitrage play now and I think it just goes up from here. The second thing is a lot of investors that I talked to won't touch VMware stock because it's controlled by Dell. This liquidity hangover that I always talk about. I think this is going to bring other investors you know in from the sideline. So that is everybody inferred that Dell was becoming untethered, Dell becomes a lot less interesting without VMware. That's wrong, nothing really changes in terms of the commercial relationship between these two companies and the impact on customers. >> So essentially if I over simplify it for my simple brain here, Dell is IPOing shares of VMware to the shareholders of Dell. What a benefit that is. >> Yeah I mean again they're just-- >> I mean it's not an IPO in the sense of an IPO, it's basically saying. Hey, shareholders of Dell, good job, if you want the value of VMware go take it. >> So you remember how this all came about? Remember when Dell bought VMware they had a gap, I mean the amount of cash they could raise, the amount of debt they took on, the amount of cash that Michael Dell in Silver Lake and a couple other partners threw in, it was only about four billion to get 67 billion and the way they covered that gap was they created a tracking stock called DVMT and DVMT was supposed to track VMware value, it really didn't. And so what happened was, DVMT was a public company, Dell wanted to go public again and said okay we're going to do this through the DVMT vehicle and we're going to issue shares of Dell. And remember, Carl Icahn, and Elliot they were very active and they sort of got Michael in a head lock and said we need more if you're going to do that and they did. Ultimately Dell goes public but then they face this liquidity hangover and so also you might recall that Dell floated Pivotal and monetized that to delever, they paid down some debt and then basically went to VMware and said okay you're going to buy Pivotal back. They used some cash and they issued shares so Dell's ownership of VMware escalated to 81% at the time. That's how they got to 81%. I remember thinking wow how much of this company are they going to own? Well this is what it allowed them to do. It now allows them to distribute the shares and allows Michael Dell personally to have the majority ownership of VMware, it's absolute genius and it cleans up the structure of the organization so instead having to own VMware through Dell which by the way I've always said it's a cheap way to own VMware, good move if you bought Dell stock to own VMware, now you own VMware directly and of course Michael Dell owns it directly. Absolute genius move over the last three, four, five, years. >> Yeah, and one of the things we did say in our hot take yesterday was that that negative value of Dell technology world, Dell Technologies gets shrunk and also can create value. Here they're even gettin' more value into ownership of VMware but I got to ask you, you mentioned a comment about this liquidity hangover and they have this dividend, could you explain that 'cause I'm just not followin' this liquidity problem ? >> Well this is very interesting, so Dell because it has so much debt, number one, number two because it has controlling ownership of VMware and it has 90 plus percent voting power. Shareholders penalize Dell and so the big thing here is the debt. What essentially Dell is doing and people always joke that VMware is Dell's piggyback and it's true. And here it comes again, we saw that with Pivotal, we saw that with DVMT. What I think is happening, John is Dell is going to essentially transfer some of its debt to VMware so it's going to have VMware take on a little bit more debt. It is said that they want to maintain investment grade ratings for VMware which currently has great ratings, Dell does not have investment grade rating, it needs to pay down more debt so essentially it's going to shift some of that debt to VMware through a special dividend of which Dell will be a great beneficiary and will allow Dell to pay down some of that debt so that it can become investment grade and they want to take on an amount of debt that will not crush VMware's balance sheets so that it will also be investment grade. So they're creating this equilibrium if you will. Now, I've heard the ceiling on VMware's debt in order to get to equilibrium or in order to maintain investment grade is no more than five billion but I've also heard much much higher numbers. As high as eight to 10, to maybe even 12 billion. I don't know if VMware can take on that much debt and maintain investment grade. The point is there's some number there which Dell is going to force VMware to take on that debt, now one last thing I'll say is despite Michael Dell, Dell Technologies' ownership and control 90 plus percent control, it has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders but my view is it's meeting that responsibility because the value it's unlocking value so who can complain? Again it's absolutely fascinating and brilliant but that's what that dividend is all about is Dell saying okay VMware you're going to take on more debt and you're going to help us pay down the Dell debt and you're going to take on more. We'll both be investment grade. >> And they both get value increase. >> Yeah, yes, correct. >> So it's a financial engineering deal, Michael Dell still can run both companies. Do you still think he will be running both companies? >> Yeah, I think there's no question that Michael Dell will be the chairman, he is the chairman of Dell Technologies, chairman of VMware and he's going to continue to be. And so this commercial agreement that they're going to sign, it's a wired deal. VMware and Dell and by the way there is every incentive for VMware to do this. People may say hey they're strong arming Dell blah blah blah but VMware, Dell is a huge distribution channel for VMware and I'll tell you something that Dell has done better than EMC and Joe Tucci ever did and you know we're big fans of Joe Tucci, but Dell has unlocked a channel for VMware the way EMC never did. VMware through Dell has seen incredible growth and it really is Dell as I would say VMware's most important partner, biggest partner because Dell didn't apologize for super gluing itself and VMware to it. Whereas EMC was always much more cautious, trying to play the ecosystem game. >> Well they were saving their storage business with VMware, I mean VMware saved EMC, some would say. >> Yeah, I would say. I mean if it weren't for the acquisition of VMware back for $650 million in the early 2000s you know EMC would've been a really uninteresting company over its last five to seven years. >> So they milked that storage dry but then they had that uplift with VMware, Michael says hey I'll put this right in the family and this is what it is. It's a deal where it's in the Dell family portfolio and what Michael's doing is to your point and what you're saying is, he's unlocking all this value for both Dell and VMware and saying okay, let's go to market and figure it out. >> I got to tell you this John I mean as a founder, the co founder you know obviously we're a little smaller than Dell but you got to appreciate what Michael Dell has done here. He went through hell taking his company private. You know he took on Carl Icahn, I said yesterday who beats the great Icahn? Well Michael Dell beat the great Icahn. You know who out maneuvered Elliot? I mean Elliot is a very influential player in the market. Michael Dell said you know what I'm not goin' through that again, I have control of Dell Technologies, I have voting control over VMware, I'm going to do what's right for me, for my company and my shareholders and Michael Dell's making his shareholders money. I mean who can complain about it. >> I'll tell you I mean there's two playbooks I look at, from Andy Jassy and Michael Dell. I mean Michael Dell knows how to make money right, he's always been a great money maker, he's also a geek, he loves to get down and dirty in the tech, he's got two 49 inch Dell monitors since it's his company he gets the best gear. All kidding aside you know he built a company, went public, took it private and that was a reset. I mean in his stage of his life it was his reset, this is his swan song. He's havin' a ball and he's financially engineered this success with the power that he built and it's a whole 'nother level, whole 'nother chapter in his life and he's a money maker. He knows how to make money. You put Silver Lake and Michael Dell together. You put Michael Dell with these kinds of brains, with his asset base, as you say the cash flow of Dell, with the asset of say a crown jewel like VMware that literally can pave the path to the future. He can ride on the cloud backs all day long, he doesn't need a public cloud for anything. >> Yeah well so before we talk about that I just want to double down on what you said. People just always say yeah Michael Dell he's a finance guy. It's not true, yes, well he's got a finance team that is amazing, no doubt Michael is instrumental there but he's a business genius, I mean he really business visionary guy built his own PCs in college so he's obviously like you said, he's a geek, technically extremely savvy, he's a visionary, he's one of the top I don't know 10 visionaries in the computer industry, I would say history. So, now you're absolutely right, well you said doesn't need a cloud. I think my concern about this whole deal yesterday when I misunderstood that this was spinning off and coming untethered is what about the edge? What about multi cloud? You know what's Dell's play there? Well Dell's play is still VMware, their strategy hasn't changed one bit. I mean nothing changes, the only change is the direct ownership of VMware stock which unlocks value. Nothing else changes. >> Let me tell you, to wrap my piece up here and then we can wrap it up. Just in interface with Michael over the years and knowing him personally, seeing him up close, here's how I think his mind works. You mentioned he assembled PCs in college. He built out you know pioneered you know putting suppliers and supply chain, getting prices lower, direct mail, he pioneered that direct to consumer all these successes. This whole world that's in there is like assembling a PC in his dorm room. Accept he's got it with billions of dollars. Little VMware here, processor, IO, I mean he's essentially a financial geek at this point, and although he likes to look in and he loves Pivotal, he loves some of the things he's doing with VMware, he likes to look under the covers and see the engine but he's a financial assembler now so he's looking at this and you can see how it's all working and to your scoop here. Yeah I guess it looks like a spin out if that's what people want to call it and the press jump on that but if pieces, takes the hair off the deal that's basically makes the IO move better, he's got a you know good bus there, 32 bits. Again, and assembling a PC, assembling companies and creating value. He makes money, Dave. >> I love it, that's a great analogy, the PC parts are a little bit more valuable but the other thing I just want to clarify what I said. The other thing that changes is the income statement. Dell will no longer recognize you know VMware revenue and so that changes and of course the balance sheet changes, that's a huge change. Now and I guess the caveat is, this in theory couldn't happen but it just makes so much sense. I was kind of sniffin' around it in my breaking analysis when this thing first leaked and I said in that, John if the financial geniuses at Dell can figure out some way to monetize this well here it is. It now is becoming much much more clear and I'm impressed. >> Well Dave, he was assembling PCs in college, now he's assembling companies, what did we do in college? Don't even go there. >> Let's end it there. >> I will end it right there. Dave, great scoop, top story. Michael Dell is not selling VMware. It's a transaction, it's going to have all that value and it's unlocking more Dell tech value. Look for the shares to be distributed to the Dell Technologies shareholders. It's the same game, super gluing together, creating value for both. Dave, great scoop, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, John, thanks for having me. >> Cube Special Report and Analysis here in the studio in California, Dave Vellante in Massachusetts. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (light music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of theCUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, I'm going to provide a little detail on the recent announcement that Insight Partners was acquiring Veeam for five billion dollars. There was a lot of information on the announcement in press releases and in news articles, so what I really want to focus on is what it means for the industry generally, and for the data protection community specifically. So, very briefly this was a five billion dollar exit for Veeam on top of a five hundred million dollar investment lead by the same Insight Partners last year. I think it had earlier investments, kind of a rent, with an option to buy. New management is being promoted from within, which I think is significant, to replace the two founders. Andrei Baronov and Ratmir Timashev are going to step down after the transition and give up their board seats. Veeam is a fascinating company. It started in the 2006, 2007 time frame, after the two founders, who met in college, formed and sold Aleta software to Quest. Then they started a company called AMUST Software, from which they created Veeam. You never hear about AMUST, but I believe it's the engineering and development arm of Veeam. Now the new CEO of Veeam, Bill Largent told theCUBE that AMUST is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Veeam and it won't effect any of the engineering assets that exist in Prague and in Russia. So this I the thing about Veeam, it's a very closely held company controlled by it's two founders, with a domicile in Switzerland. My understanding is Baronov is, well he's the technical guru, and he's a resident of that country in Switzerland, and the HQ there is very lean, the sizable engineering teams, as they say, is in Russia and Prague. Timashev resides in the US, and he's a marketing genius, who helped create this company, and it's always punched above it's weight class with, epic parties, and great products. Now interestingly, Veeam's rise, it coincided with the ascendancy of VMware. Veeam became the standard backup software for small to medium size companies within VMware shops. Their products are renowned for being simple, and working as advertised, and their customer support is outstanding by all accounts. But the US business lagged, despite the fact that most of VMware's business is in the Americas. You'd think you think if they super glued themself to VMware their Americas business would be higher. So a few years ago they decided to really go hard after the enterprise and they brought in Peter Mckay, from VMware, and he began to build up a US presence. But the enterprise business, it requires a lot of things that were kind of antithetical to Veeam. So think about long sales cycles, expensive sales people, belly to belly selling, with the expectations of, road maps, and clarity around enterprise feature sets. Now McKay was named CEO with Baronov, who continued to run engineering. So it was a bit of a culture clash. You got the sales oriented leader wanting the engineering team to turn on a dime and help close large deals, and satiate partners like HPE and Sysco, and you've got this genius co-leader, slash engineer, with an incredible track record of delivering features that the customer loves. So it really didn't work out and then Veeam scaled back on it's ambitions some what. At it's annual user conference in Miami last year, Ratmir came on theCUBE, and he talked about how Veeam's act one was all about dominance in virtualized environment. Let's listen to what he said about act two and then we'll come back and talk about it >> That was act one, we dominated it, we grew from zero to one billion within 10, 12 years. We added three hundred fifty thousand customers over that time frame, and now it's act two. What is act two? Act two is the, again, the new major industry transformation to a hybrid cloud. What are the similarities? Again, Veeam is in a great position because we're at the right time at the right place with a brilliant product. >> Now what we know is that act two is about a few things, one, as Ratmir said, hybrid cloud, multi cloud management, etcetera. But it's also about an awesome exit for it's two founders. Wow five billion dollars, five x revenue multiple, handing over the reigns is really the third thing this is about and creating more traditional governance structure for Veeam. Now they're moving from a governance structure that was closely held and opaque to one that is still going to be closely held, but ideally somewhat less opaque. Which brings me to inside partners. In the money world, you basically have a spectrum of investors. On the one side you've got banks, who are the most conservative. On the other side you've got VCs, now they're the most aggressive, of course. Now somewhere in the middle, you have private equity firms. Now they traditionally invest in companies, and they squeeze them for EBITDA, and they suck money out. But inside is more of a hybrid. They invest in a number of companies as VCs, they take a portion of the ownership. And to me they're more of a rule of forty PE, meaning it's not just about EBITDA, it's about growth plus EBITDA. So a rule of thirty or a rule of forty PE company, they can dial down EBITDA and go for growth, or dial up EBIT and moderate growth. So it's a great model. So I would expect Insight to bring structure and leadership to Veeam, with the goal of taking the company public at some point, because they like to sell to companies for all cash, I don't see a logical buyer at these kind of price points for this company in this market. It's growing market but it's still not a giant market. All right let's shift gears a little bit and get into some of the ETR data. Here's a narrative they put out recently that, to me, sums it up well. ETR said Veeam is one of the few vendors growing share among customers vs previous surveys in the storage sector. And that said, spending intentions are decelerating and continue to look poor in the largest sectors and Veeam trails Rubrik and Cohesity, although on a larger user base. So you can see by this statement that Veeam is of course doing well, but there are some cracks in the enterprise armor that I want to talk about and drill into a little bit. Now this now this Arline customer quote also, to me, sums up one of the reasons for Veeam's success. What this person said is if I want to do a Veeam back up to the cloud, it's basically point and click, very easy to use. Now I've talked to dozens, if not hundreds of Veeam customers, and they all say the same thing, it just works, that's kind of their motto. So this is the big reason why Veeam has steadily gained gained share over time. Now take a look at this chart, which shows the progression over time of Veeam's progress in terms of what ETR calls market share. Now remember, market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the ETR data set. And you can see, in the data, that Veeam has had a steady rise since ETR started tracking them at critical mass back in 2014. And you can see the steady decline in the survey for Veritas and Commvault and what appears to be, rapid momentum building for Rubrik and Cohesity, two companies that I said in my 2020 predictions breaking analysis that would continue to do well this year. Now notice I had to black out the January 2020 survey, which is ending shortly, so stay tuned for those results. But let's drill into Veeam's performance a little bit more. What this chart shows is a candlestick of net score and market share across all the respondents in the ETR survey for Veeam. Remember net score is a measure of spending momentum that subtracts customers that are spending less, the red, from those spending more, the greens. And it's represented over time by this blue line that you see. You can see that this blue line, it bounces around but it holds steady in the past couple of years pretty generally, and really in that thirty to forty percent range which you see on the left hand axis. Now that yellow line, is market share or pervasiveness, it also continues to climb steadily as I showed you in the previous chart. Now again this is amongst all respondents. Let's now take a look at this chart which isolates Veeam's performance in the largest companies, that enterprise push. Notice the pictures is somewhat choppier. Market share is okay, although unlike the previous chart, it's not steady. This is stunning. Peter McKay left in October 2018, and that's when Veeam really pulled back on it's big enterprise push, and you can see, there's a noticeable and steady drop there based on ETR data. So what's happening here is we are entering a new chapter for Veeam, act two so to speak. With new leadership and new governance. Danny Allen is taking over CTO, he previously ran strategy, Bill Largent is going to be CEO, the HQ is moving into the US. So in my opinon, Veeam's issues in the US have been more execution related than anything else. Veeam is a leader. So partnerships with Nutanix, Sysco, HPE, NetApp, should continue to improve and be somewhat productive, actually largely productive. Let's talk a little bit about Veeam's architecture, and a point of discussion that you often hear in the community. Veeam's a Window's based architecture. Now is that a blessing or is that a curse? Well the pros are that the Veeam team came out of a Windows world, and they know the platform very well. They are amazingly good at adding function, without screwing up performance somewhere else. You saw this a couple years back when they were making a big push on the enterprise and they increased the file sizes, and the number of objects that they could support. Another example is when Veeam added cloud back up, it was a really good product, version one. Unlink many products, when they first tried to port to the cloud, that wasn't the case. Recovery from the cloud is very tricky. Things are out of sync, you got a metadata challenge, and generally Veeam was able to achieve consistent levels of performance with it's cloud product. Now flip side of this, is that if you look at most, if not all, modern architectures today, are based on Linux. And once you start getting into mulit cloud, and cross cloud management, you're going to bump into and be interfacing with lots of Linux based systems. So Veeam is going to have migrate code, and maintaining consistent performance is going to be tougher. But as David Fourier, my colleague points out, there are many many ways to skin a cat, and Veeam's engineering team has really, based on it's track record, has proven that it can solve tough problems, and really deliver a great product consistently. I think the bigger issue and challenge for Veeam again, is execution in the US, and of course the enterprise. Customers in EBC's executive briefing centers, they want to see road maps, and enterprise features, and specials. And so we'll see, if that's something that Veeam has an appetite for. If they do, and I'm one of the incumbents, I'd be worried that Veeam could do a land and expand. Where Veeam isn't as strong in large enterprises, big companies they buy from Veeam. Maybe it's a smaller division, or remote location, but it's not like they don't do business in large accounts, they do. So in a way, they've already landed and they have an opportunity to expand, so that's something to pay attention to. If I'm an enterprise customer, I would be pressing Veeam on it's roadmap, and having them clarify their vision around hybrid and multi cloud management. Will Veeam be more transparent and willing to do specials for the enterprise, and their big partners, who expect them, when they say jump, they expect Veeam to say how high. How will Veeam's culture change, is the other thing I want to focus on. As the two founders step down, are they going to be able to main their engineering ethos, and customer loyalty, and can they figure out the enterprise. I'm a big fan of founder lead companies, when founders leave cultures often change. When founders stay, they're intensely committed, even beyond great CEOs who aren't founders. Look at Michael Dell. He went to the mat to keep his company against the great icon, now look at Dell technologies, after the EMC acquisition, it was completely transformed. Look at Oracle, look at the lengths that Larry Ellison goes to win. Compare that to a great CEO Joe Tucci, when he was at EMC, but you know when he was done, he was done, it was over. It wasn't his baby. So my point is how will this effect Veeam's culture and prospects in the long term. For me the bottom line is the big opportunity's in the US. And that's about execution. And I expect with the move to US HQ, new management, I expect they're going to see consistent market share gains, that's going to continue. The enterprise however, that's going to take longer, it's going to require more patience and more money. And with Veeam transitioning from essentially the two founder's lifestyle business into a company that's really built for an exit, they're going to have more money to invest, greater transparency, I hope, and a path to really build on their past successes. So this Dave Vellante signing out from the latest episode of theCUBE insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Miami, Florida. It's the cube covering IBM's data and AI forum brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to downtown Miami. Everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental hotel covering the IBM data AI form hashtag data AI forum. My name is Dave Volante and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Ritika gunner is here. She's the vice president of data and AI expert labs and learning at IBM. Ritika, great to have you on. Again, always a pleasure to be here. Dave. I love interviewing you because you're a woman executive that said a lot of different roles at IBM. Um, you know, you've, we've talked about the AI ladder. You're climbing the IBM ladder and so it's, it's, it's, it's awesome to see and I love this topic. It's a topic that's near and dear to the cubes heart, not only women in tech, but women in AI. So great to have you. Thank you. So what's going on with the women in AI program? We're going to, we're going to cover that, but let me start with women in tech. It's an age old problem that we've talked about depending on, you know, what statistic you look at. 15% 17% of, uh, of, of, of the industry comprises women. We do a lot of events. You can see it. Um, let's start there. >>Well, obviously the diversity is not yet there, right? So we talk about women in technology, um, and we just don't have the representation that we need to be able to have. Now when it comes to like artificial intelligence, I think the statistic is 10 to 15% of the workforce today in AI is female. When you think about things like bias and ethicacy, having the diversity in terms of having male and female representation be equal is absolutely essential so that you're creating fair AI, unbiased AI, you're creating trust and transparency, set of capabilities that really have the diversity in backgrounds. >>Well, you work for a company that is as chairman and CEO, that's, that's a, that's a woman. I mean IBM generally, you know, we could see this stuff on the cube because IBM puts women on a, we get a lot of women customers that, that come on >>and not just because we're female, because we're capable. >>Yeah. Well of course. Right. It's just because you're in roles where you're spokespeople and it's natural for spokespeople to come on a forum like this. But, but I have to ask you, with somebody inside of IBM, a company that I could say the test to relative to most, that's pretty well. Do you feel that way or do you feel like even a company like IBM has a long way to go? >>Oh, um, I personally don't feel that way and I've never felt that to be an issue. And if you look at my peers, um, my um, lead for artificial intelligence, Beth Smith, who, you know, a female, a lot of my peers under Rob Thomas, all female. So I have not felt that way in terms of the leadership team that I have. Um, but there is a gap that exists, not necessarily within IBM, but in the community as a whole. And I think it goes back to you want to, you know, when you think about data science and artificial intelligence, you want to be able to see yourself in the community. And while there's only 10 to 15% of females in AI today, that's why IBM has created programs such as women AI that we started in June because we want strong female leaders to be able to see that there are, is great representation of very technical capable females in artificial intelligence that are doing amazing things to be able to transform their organizations and their business model. >>So tell me more about this program. I understand why you started it started in June. What does it entail and what's the evolution of this? >>So we started it in June and the idea was to be able to get some strong female leaders and multiple different organizations that are using AI to be able to change their companies and their business models and really highlight not just the journey that they took, but the types of transformations that they're doing and their organizations. We're going to have one of those events tonight as well, where we have leaders from Harley Davidson in Miami Dade County coming to really talk about not only what was their journey, but what actually brought them to artificial intelligence and what they're doing. And I think Dave, the reason that's so important is you want to be able to understand that those journeys are absolutely approachable. They're doable by any females that are out there. >>Talk about inherent bias. The humans are biased and if you're developing models that are using AI, there's going to be inherent bias in those models. So talk about how to address that and why is it important for more diversity to be injected into those models? >>Well, I think a great example is if you took the data sets that existed even a decade ago, um, for the past 50 years and you created a model that was to be able to predict whether to give loans to certain candidates or not, all things being equal, what would you find more males get these loans than females? The inherent data that exists has bias in it. Even from the history based on what we've had yet, that's not the way we want to be able to do things today. You want to be able to identify that bias and say all things being equal, it is absolutely important that regardless of whether you are a male or a female, you want to be able to give that loan to that person if they have all the other qualities that are there. And that's why being able to not only detect these things but have the diversity and the kinds of backgrounds of people who are building AI who are deploying this AI is absolutely critical. >>So for the past decade, and certainly in the past few years, there's been a light shined on this topic. I think, you know, we were at the Grace Hopper conference when Satya Nadella stuck his foot in his mouth and it said, Hey, it's bad karma for you know, if you feel like you're underpaid to go complain. And the women in the audience like, dude, no way. And he, he did the right thing. He goes, you know what, you're right. You know, any, any backtrack on that? And that was sort of another inflection point. But you talk about the women in, in AI program. I was at a CDO event one time. It was I and I, an IBM or had started the data divas breakfast and I asked, can I go? They go, yeah, you can be the day to dude. Um, which was, so you're seeing a lot of initiatives like this. My question is, are they having the impact that you would expect and that you want to have? >>I think they absolutely are. Again, I mean, I'll go back to, um, I'll give you a little bit of a story. Um, you know, people want to be able to relate and see that they can see themselves in these females leaders. And so we've seen cases now through our events, like at IBM we have a program called grow, which is really about helping our female lead female. Um, technical leaders really understand that they can grow, they can be nurtured, and they have development programs to help them accelerate where they need to be on their technical programs. We've absolutely seen a huge impact from that from a technology perspective. In terms of more females staying in technology wanting to go in the, in those career paths as another story. I'll, I'll give you kind of another kind of point of view. Um, Dave and that is like when you look at where it starts, it starts a lot earlier. >>So I have a young daughter who a year, year and a half ago when I was doing a lot of stuff with Watson, she would ask me, you know, not only what Watson's doing, but she would say, what does that mean for me mom? Like what's my job going to be? And if you think about the changes in technology and cultural shifts, technology and artificial intelligence is going to impact every job, every industry, every role that there is out there. So much so that I believe her job hasn't been invented yet. And so when you think about what's absolutely critical, not only today's youth, but every person out there needs to have a foundational understanding, not only in the three RS that you and I know from when we grew up have reading, writing and arithmetic, we need to have a foundational understanding of what it means to code. And you know, having people feel confident, having young females feel confident that they can not only do that, that they can be technical, that they can understand how artificial intelligence is really gonna impact society. And the world is absolutely critical. And so these types of programs that shed light on that, that help bridge that confidence is game changing. >>Well, you got kids, I >>got kids, I have daughters, you have daughter. Are they receptive to that? So, um, you know, I think they are, but they need to be able to see themselves. So the first time I sent my daughter to a coding camp, she came back and said, not for me mom. I said, why? Because she's like, all the boys, they're coding in their Minecraft area. Not something I can relate to. You need to be able to relate and see something, develop that passion, and then mix yourself in that diverse background where you can see the diversity of backgrounds. When you don't have that diversity and when you can't really see how to progress yourself, it becomes a blocker. So as she started going to grow star programs, which was something in Austin where young girls coded together, it became something that she's really passionate about and now she's Python programming. So that's just an example of yes, you need to be able to have these types of skills. It needs to start early and you need to have types of programs that help enhance that journey. >>Yeah, and I think you're right. I think that that is having an impact. My girls who code obviously as a some does some amazing work. My daughters aren't into it. I try to send them to coder camp too and they don't do it. But here's my theory on that is that coding is changing and, and especially with artificial intelligence and cognitive, we're a software replacing human skills. Creativity is going to become much, much more important. My daughters are way more creative than my sons. I shouldn't say that, but >>I think you just admitted that >>they, but, but in a way they are. I mean they've got amazing creativity, certainly more than I am. And so I see that as a key component of how coding gets done in the future, taking different perspectives and then actually codifying them. Your, your thoughts on that. >>Well there is an element of understanding like the outcomes that you want to generate and the outcomes really is all about technology. How can you imagine the art of the possible with technology? Because technology alone, we all know not useful enough. So understanding what you do with it, just as important. And this is why a lot of people who are really good in artificial intelligence actually come from backgrounds that are philosophy, sociology, economy. Because if you have the culture of curiosity and the ability to be able to learn, you can take the technology aspects, you can take those other aspects and blend them together. So understanding the problem to be solved and really marrying that with the technological aspects of what AI can do. That's how you get outcomes. >>And so we've, we've obviously talking in detail about women in AI and women in tech, but it's, there's data that shows that diversity drives value in so many different ways. And it's not just women, it's people of color, it's people of different economic backgrounds, >>underrepresented minorities. Absolutely. And I think the biggest thing that you can do in an organization is have teams that have that diverse background, whether it be from where they see the underrepresented, where they come from, because those differences in thought are the things that create new ideas that really innovate, that drive, those business transformations that drive the changes in the way that we do things. And so having that difference of opinion, having healthy ways to bring change and to have conflict, absolutely essential for progress to happen. >>So how did you get into the tech business? What was your background? >>So my background was actually, um, a lot in math and science. And both of my parents were engineers. And I have always had this unwavering, um, need to be able to marry business and the technology side and really figure out how you can create the art of the possible. So for me it was actually the creativity piece of it where you could create something from nothing that really drove me to computer science. >>Okay. So, so you're your math, uh, engineer and you ended up in CS, is that right? >>Science. Yeah. >>Okay. So you were coded. Did you ever work as a programmer? >>Absolutely. My, my first years at IBM were all about coding. Um, and so I've always had a career where I've coded and then I've gone to the field and done field work. I've come back and done development and development management, gone back to the field and kind of seen how that was actually working. So personally for me, being able to create and work with clients to understand how they drive value and having that back and forth has been a really delightful part. And the thing that drives me, >>you know, that's actually not an uncommon path for IBM. Ours, predominantly male IBM, or is in the 50 sixties and seventies and even eighties. Who took that path? They started out programming. Um, I just think, trying to think of some examples. I know Omar para, who was the CIO of Aetna international, he started out coding at IBM. Joe Tucci was a programmer at IBM. He became CEO of EMC. It was a very common path for people and you took the same path. That's kind of interesting. Why do you think, um, so many women who maybe maybe start in computer science and coding don't continue on that path? And what was it that sort of allowed you to break through that barrier? >>No, I'm not sure why most women don't stay with it. But for me, I think, um, you know, I, I think that every organization today is going to have to be technical in nature. I mean, just think about it for a moment. Technology impacts every part of every type of organization and the kinds of transformation that happens. So being more technical as leaders and really understanding the technology that allows the kinds of innovations and business for informations is absolutely essential to be able to see progress in a lot of what we're doing. So I think that even general CXOs that you see today have to be more technically acute to be able to do their jobs really well and marry those business outcomes with what it fundamentally means to have the right technology backbone. >>Do you think a woman in the white house would make a difference for young people? I mean, part of me says, yeah, of course it would. Then I say, okay, well some examples you can think about Margaret Thatcher in the UK, Angela Merkel, and in Germany it's still largely male dominated cultures, but I dunno, what do you think? Maybe maybe that in the United States would be sort of the, >>I'm not a political expert, so I wouldn't claim to answer that, but I do think more women in technology, leadership role, CXO leadership roles is absolutely what we need. So, you know, politics aside more women in leadership roles. Absolutely. >>Well, it's not politics is gender. I mean, I'm independent, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, right? Absolutely. Oh yeah. Well, companies, politics. I mean you certainly see women leaders in a, in Congress and, and the like. Um, okay. Uh, last question. So you've got a program going on here. You have a, you have a panel that you're running. Tell us more about. >>Well this afternoon we'll be continuing that from women leaders in AI and we're going to do a panel with a few of our clients that really have transformed their organizations using data and artificial intelligence and they'll talk about like their backgrounds in history. So what does it actually mean to come from? One of, one of the panelists actually from Miami Dade has always come from a technical background and the other panelists really etched in from a non technical background because she had a passion for data and she had a passion for the technology systems. So we're going to go through, um, how these females actually came through to the journey, where they are right now, what they're actually doing with artificial intelligence in their organizations and what the future holds for them. >>I lied. I said, last question. What is, what is success for you? Cause I, I would love to help you achieve that. That objective isn't, is it some metric? Is it awareness? How do you know it when you see it? >>Well, I think it's a journey. Success is not an endpoint. And so for me, I think the biggest thing I've been able to do at IBM is really help organizations help businesses and people progress what they do with technology. There's nothing more gratifying than like when you can see other organizations and then what they can do, not just with your technology, but what you can bring in terms of expertise to make them successful, what you can do to help shape their culture and really transform. To me, that's probably the most gratifying thing. And as long as I can continue to do that and be able to get more acknowledgement of what it means to have the right diversity ingredients to do that, that success >>well Retika congratulations on your success. I mean, you've been an inspiration to a number of people. I remember when I first saw you, you were working in group and you're up on stage and say, wow, this person really knows her stuff. And then you've had a variety of different roles and I'm sure that success is going to continue. So thanks very much for coming on the cube. You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break, we're here covering the IBM data in a AI form from Miami right back.

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi, everybody, welcome to this Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis I want to talk to you about what I learned this week at Dell Technology's financial analyst meeting in New York. They gathered all the financial analysts, Rob Williams hosted it, he's the head of IR, Michael Dell of course was there. They had Dennis Hoffman who is the head of strategic planning, Jeff Clarke who basically runs the business and Tom Sweet, of course, who was the star of the show, the CFO, all the analysts want to see him. Dell laid out its longterm goals, it provided much clearer understanding of its strategic direction, basically focused on three areas. Dell believes that IT is getting more complex, we know that, they want to capitalize on that by simplifying IT. We'll talk about that. And then they want to position for the wave of digital transformations that are coming and they also believe, Dell believes, that it can capitalize on the consolidation trend, consolidating vendors, so I'll talk about each of those. And so let me bring up the first slide, Alex, if you would. The takeaways from the Dell financial analyst meeting. Let me share with you the overall framework that Tom Sweet laid out. And I have to say, the messaging was very consistent, these guys were very well-prepared. I think Dell is, from a management perspective, very well-run company. They're targeting three to 5% growth on what they're saying is a 4% GDP forecast. Or sorry, 4%, I have GDP here, it's really 4% industry growth. GDP's a little lower than that obviously. So this is IDC data, Gartner data, 4% industry growth. So that's an error on my part, I apologize. The strategies to grow relative to their competition. So grow share on a relative basis. So whatever the market does, again, not GDP, but whatever the market does, Dell wants to grow faster than the market. So it wants to gain share, that's its primary metric. From there they want to grow operating income and they want to grow that faster than revenue, that's going to throw off cash. And then they're going to also continue to delever the balance sheet. I think they paid down 17 billion in debt since the EMC acquisition. They want to get to a two X debt to EBITA ratio within 18 months. And what they're saying is, you know, they talked about, Tom Sweet talked about this consistent march toward investment-grade rating. They've been talkin' about that for awhile. He made the comment, we don't need to have a triple A rating but we want to get to the point where we can reduce our interest expense, and that will, 'cause they'll drop right into the bottom line. So they talked about these various levers that they can turn, some of them under the P and L, gaining share, some are their operating structure and their organizational structure, and one big one is obviously their debt structure. The other key issue here is will this cut the liquidity discount that Dell faces? What do I mean by that? Well, VMware has about a $60 billion valuation. Dell owns about 80% of VMware, which would equate to 48 billion. But if you look at Dell's market cap, it's only 37 billion. So it essentially says that Dell's core business is worth minus 11 billion. We used to talk about this when EMC owned VMware. Its core business only comprised about 40% of the overall value of the company, in this case because of the high debt, Dell has a negative value. And it's not just the high debt. Michael Dell has control over the voting shares, it's essentially a conglomerate structure, there's very high debt, and it's a relatively low margin business, notwithstanding VMware. And so as a result, Dell trades at a discount relative to what you would think it should trade at, given its prominence in the market, $92 billion company, the leader in every category under the sun. So that's the big question is can Dell turn these levers, drop EBITA or cash to the bottom line, affect operating income, and then ultimately pay down its debt and affect that discount that it trades at? Okay, bring up, if you would, Alex, the next slide. Now I want to share with you the takeaways from the Dell line of business focus. This really was Jeff Clarke's presentations that I'm going to draw from. Servers, we know, they're softer demand, but the key there is they're really faced tough compares. Last year, Dell's server business grew like crazy. So this year the comparisons are lessened. But there's less spending on servers. I'll share with you some of the ETR data. Storage, they call it holding serve, you saw last quarter I did an analysis, I took the ETR data and the income statement, it showed Pure was gaining share at like 22% growth from the income statement standpoint. Dell was 0% growth but is actually growing faster than its competitors. With the exception of Pure. It's growing faster than the market. So Dell actually gained share with 0% growth. Dell's really focused on consolidating the portfolio. They've cut the portfolio down from 80, I think actually the right number is 88 products, down to 20 by May of 2020. They've got some new mid-range coming, they've just refreshed their data protection portfolio, so again, by May of next year, by Dell Technologies World they'll have a much, much more simplified portfolio. And they're gaining back share. They've refocused on the storage business. You might recall after the acquisition, EMC was kind of a mess. It was losing share before the acquisition, it was so distracted with all the Elliott Management stuff goin' on. And kind of took its eye off the ball, and then after the acquisition it took awhile for them to get their act together. They gained back about 375 basis points in the last 18 months. Remember a basis point is 1/100th of 1%. So gaining share and their consistent focus on trying to do that. Their PC business, which is actually doin' quite well, is focused on the commercial segment and focused on higher margins. They made the statement that the PCs are kind of undersupply right now so it's helping margins. There's a big focus in Jeff Clarke's organization on VMware integration. To me this makes a lot of sense. To the extent that you can take the VMware platform and make Dell hardware run VMware better, that's something that is an advantage for Dell, obviously. And at the same time, VMware has to walk the fine line with the ecosystem. But certainly it's earned the presence in the market now that it can basically do what I just said, tightly integrate with Dell and at the same time serve the ecosystem, 'cause frankly, the ecosystem has no choice. It must serve VMware customers. The strategy, essentially, is to, as I say, capitalize on vendor consolidation, leverage value across the portfolio, so whether it's pivotal, VMware integration, the security portfolio, try to leverage that and then differentiate with scale. And Dell really has the number one supply chain in the tech business. Something that Dave Donatelli at HP, when he was at HP, used to talk about. HPE doesn't really talk about that supply chain advantage anymore 'cause essentially it doesn't have it. Dell does. So Jeff Clarke's reorganization, he came in, he streamlined the organization, really from the focus on R and D to product to collaboration across the organization and the VMware integration. I actually was quite impressed with when I first met Jeff Clarke I guess two years ago now, what he and the organization have accomplished since then. No BS kind of person. And you can see it's starting to take effect. So we'll keep an eye on that. The next slide I want to show you, I want to bring in the ETR data. We've been sharing with you the ETR spending intention surveys for the last couple of weeks and months. ETR, enterprise technology research, they have a data platform that comprises 4,500 practitioners that share spending data with them. CIOs, IT managers, et cetera. What I'm showing here is a cut off of the server sector. So I'm going to drill down into server and storage. So these are spending intentions from the July survey asking about the second half of 2019 relative to the first half of 2019. And this is a drill-down into the giant public and private firms. Why do I do that? Because in meeting the ETR, this is the best indicator. So it's big, big public companies and big private companies. Think Uber. Private companies that spend a ton of dough on IT. UPS before it went public, for example. So those companies are in here. And they're, according to ETR, the best indicators. What this chart shows, so the bars show, and I've shared this with you a number of times, the lime green is we're adding, we're new to this platform, we're new adoption. The evergreen is we're spending more, the gray is we're spending the same, the light red or pink is we're spending less, and the dark red is we're leaving the platform. So if you subtract the red from the green you get what's called a net score, and that's that blue line. And this is the overall server spending intentions from that July survey. The end is about 525 respondents out of the 4,500. And this is, again, those that just answered the question on server. So you can see the net score on server spend is dropping. And you can see the market share on server is dropping. The takeaway here is that servers, as a percentage of overall IT spend, are on a downward slope, and have been for quite some time. Back to the January '16 survey. Okay, so that's going to serve us. Let's take a look at the same data for storage. So if, Alex, if you bring up the storage sector slide, You can see kind of a similar trend. And I would argue what's happening here, a couple of things. You've got the CLOB effect, I'll talk about that some more, and you've also got, in this case, the flash, all-flash array effect. What happened was you had all-flash arrays and flash come into the data center, and that gave performance a huge headroom. Remember, spinning disk was the last bastion of mechanical movement and it was the main bottleneck in terms of overall application performance. IO was the problem. Well you put a bunch of flash into the system and it gives a lot of headroom. People used to over-provision capacity just for performance reasons. So flash has had the effect of customers saying, hey, my performance is good, I don't need to over-provision anymore, I don't need to buy so much. So that combined with cloud, I think, has put down the pressure on the storage business as well. Now the next slide, Alex, that I want you to bring up is the vendor net scores, the server spending intentions. And what I've done is I've highlighted Dell EMC. Now what's happening here in the slide, and I realize it's an eye chart, but basically where you want to be in this chart is in the left-hand side. What it shows is the spending intentions and the momentum from the October '18, which is the gray, the April '19, which is the blue, and then the July '19 which is the most recent one. Again, the end is 525 in the servers for the July '19 survey. And you can see Dell's kind of in the middle of the pack. You'd love to be in the left-hand side, you know, Docker, Microsoft, VMware, Intel, Ubuntu. And you don't want to be on the right-hand side, you know, Fujitsu, IBM, is sort of below the line. Dell's kind of in the middle there, Dell EMC. The next slide I want to show you is that same slide for storage. And again, you can see here is that on-- So this is vendor net scores, the storage spending intentions. On the left-hand side it's all the high growth companies. Rubrik, Cohesity, Nutanix, Pure, VMware with vSAN, Veeam. You see Dell EMC's VxRail. On the right-hand side, you see the guys that are losing momentum. Veritas, Iron Mountain, Barracuda, HitachiHDS, Fusion-io still comes up in the survey after the acquisition by Western Digital. Again, you see Dell EMC kind of holding serve in the middle there. Not great, not bad. Okay, so that's kind of just some other ETR data that I wanted to share. All right, next thing we're going to talk about is the macros market summary. And Alex, I've got some bullet points on this, so if you bring up that slide, let me talk about that a little bit. So five points here. First, cloud continues to eat away at on-prem, despite all this talk about repatriation, which I know does happen. People try to throw everything to the cloud and they go, whoa! Look at my Amazon bill, yeah, I get that. That's at the margin. The main trend is that cloud continues to grow. That whole repatriation thing is not moving the on-prem market. On-prem is kind of steady eddy. Storage is still working through that AFA injection. Got a lot of headroom from performance standpoint. So people don't need to buy as much as they used to because you had that step function in performance. Now eventually the market will catch up, all this digital transformation is happening, all this data is flowing through the system and it will catch up, and the storage market is elastic. As NAN prices fall, people will, I predict, will buy more storage. But there's been somewhat of a lull in the overall storage market. It's not a great market right now, frankly, at the macro level. Now ETR does these surveys on a quarterly basis. They're just about to release the October survey, and they put out a little glimpse on Friday about this survey. And I'll share some bullet points there. Overall IT spending clearly is softening. We kind of know that, everybody kind of realizes that. Here's the nuance. New adoptions are reverting to pre-2018 levels, and the replacements are rising. What does this mean? So the number of respondents that said, oh yes, we're adopting this platform for the first time is declining, and the replacements are actually accelerating. Why is that? Well I was at ETR last week and we were talking about this and one of the theories, and I think it's a good one, is that 2016, 2017 was kind of experimentation around digital transformation. 2018, people started to put things into production or closer to production, they were running systems in parallel, and now they're making their bets, they're saying, hey, this test worked, let's put this heavy into production in 2019, and now we're going to start replacing. So we're not going to adopt as much stuff 'cause we're not doing as much experimentation. We're going to now focus and narrow in on those things that are going to drive our business, and we're going to replace those things that aren't going to drive our business. We're going to start unplugging them. So that's some of what's happening. Another big trend is Microsoft. Microsoft is extending its presence throughout. They're goin' after collaboration, you saw the impact that they had on Slack and Slack stock recently. So Slack Box, Dropbox, are kind of exposed there. They're goin' after security, they've just announced a SIM product. So Splunk and IBM, they're kind of goin' after that base. The application performance management vendors. For instance, New Relic. Microsoft goin' after them. Obviously they got a huge presence in cloud. Their Windows 10 cycle is a little slower this time around, but they've got other businesses that are really starting to click. So Microsoft is one of the few vendors that really is showing accelerated spending momentum in the ETR data. Financial services and telcos, which are always leading spender indicators, are actually very weak right now. That's having a spillover effect into Europe, which is over-banked, if I can use that term. Banking heavy, if you will. So right now it's not a pretty picture, but it's not a disaster. I don't want to necessarily suggest this as like going back to 2007, 2008, it's not. It's really just a matter of things are softening and it's, you know, maybe taking a little breath. Okay, so let me summarize the meeting overall. Again, it was a very well-run meeting. Started at 9:00, ended at 12:00, bagged lunch, go home. Nice and crisp. So these guys are very well-prepared. I think, again, Dell is a extremely well-managed company. They laid out a much clearer vision for Wall Street of its strategy, where it's headed. As they say, they're going after IT complexity. I want to make a comment on this. You think about Legacy EMC. Legacy EMC was not the company that you would expect to deal with complexity. In fact, they were the culprit of complexity. One of the things that Jeff Clarke did when he came in, he said, this portfolio's too complex, needs to be simplified. Joe Tucci used to say, overlap is better than gaps. Jeff Clarke said we got too much overlap. We don't have a lot of gaps so let's streamline that portfolio. Taking advantage of vendor consolidation, this is an interesting one. Ever since I've been in this business, which has been quite a long time now, I've been hearing that buyers want to consolidate the number of vendors that they have. They've really not succeeded in doing that. Now can they do that now 'cause there are less vendors? Well, in a sense, yes, there are less sort of on-prem big vendors. EMC's no longer in the market, you don't have companies like Sun and Digital anymore, Compact is gone. HP split in two, but still. You're not seeing a huge number of new vendors, at scale, come into the market. Except you've got AWS and Google as new players there. So I think that injects sort of a new dynamic that a lot of people like to put cloud aside and kind of ignore it and talk about the old on-prem business, but I think that you're going to see a lot of experimentations and workload ins and outs, particularly with AWS and Google and of course Azure, which is in itself, their cloud is almost a separate force. So we'll see how that shakes up. As I say, servers right now, Dell's got a very tough compare. I think Dell will be fine in the server space. Storage, it's all about simplifying the portfolio, they've got a refreshed portfolio focused on regaining share. They've rebranded everything Power, so their whole line is going to be Power by, if it's not already, by May of next year, Dell Technologies World. It's a much more scalable portfolio. And I think Dell's got a lot of valuation levers. They're a $92 billion company, they've got their current operations, their current P and L, their share gains, their cross-company synergies, particularly with VMware, they can expand their TAM into cloud with partnerships like they're doing with AWS and others, Google, Microsoft. The Edge is a TAM expansion opportunity to them. And also corporate structure. You've seen them. VMware acquired Pivotal. They're cleaning that up. I'm sure they could potentially make some other moves. Secureworks is out there, for example. Maybe they'll do some things with RSA. So they got that knob to turn and they can delever. Paying down the debt to the extent that they can get back to investment grade, that will lower their interest rates, that'll drop right to the bottom line, and they'll be able to reinvest that. And Tom Sweet said, within 18 months, we'll be able to get there with that two X ratio relative to EBITA, and that's when they're going to start having conversations with the rating agencies to talk about you know, hey, maybe we can get a better rating and lower our interest expense. Bottom line, did Wall Street buy the story? Yes. But I don't think it's going to necessarily change anything in the near term. This is a show me from Missouri, prove it, execute, and then I think Dell will get rewarded. Okay, so this is Dave Vellante, thanks for watching this Cube Insights powered by ETR. We'll see ya next time. (electronic music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this special cube in size powered by ET our enterprise Technology Research our partner who's got this database to solve the spending data and what we're gonna do is a braking analysis on the analytic database market we're seeing that cloud and cloud players are disrupting that marketplace and that marketplace really traditionally has been known as the enterprise data warehouse market so Alex if you wouldn't mind bringing up the first slide I want to talk about some of the trends in the traditional EDW market I almost don't like to use that term anymore because it's sort of a pejorative but let's look at it's a very large market it's about twenty billion dollars today growing it you know high single digits low double digits it's expected to be in the 30 to 35 billion dollar size by mid next decade now historically this is dominated by teradata who started this market really back in the 1980s with the first appliance the first converged appliance or coal with Exadata you know IBM I'll talk about IBM a little bit they bought a company called mateesah back in the day and they've basically this month just basically killed the t's and killed the brand Microsoft has entered the fray and so it's it's been a fairly large market but I say it's failed to really live up to the promises that we heard about in the late 90s early parts of the 2000 namely that you were going to be able to get a 360 degree view of your data and you're gonna have this flexible easy access to the data you know the reality is data warehouses were really expensive they were slow you had to go through a few experts to to get data it took a long time I'll tell you I've done a lot of research on this space and when you talked to the the data warehouse practitioners they would tell you we always had to chase the chips anytime Intel would come out with a new chip we forced it in there because we just didn't have the performance to really run the analytics as we need to it's took so long one practitioner described it as a snake swallowing a basketball so you've got all those data which is the sort of metaphor for the basketball just really practitioners had a hard time standing up infrastructure and what happened as a spate of new players came into the marketplace these these MPP players trying to disrupt the market you had Vertica who was eventually purchased by HP and then they sold them to Micro Focus greenplum was buy bought by EMC and really you know company is de-emphasized greenplum Netezza 1.7 billion dollar acquisition by IBM IBM just this month month killed the brand they're kind of you know refactoring everything par Excel was interesting was it was a company based on an open-source platform that Amazon AWS did a one-time license with and created a redshift it ever actually put a lot of innovation redshift this is really doing well well show you some data on that we've also at the time saw a major shift toward unstructured data and read much much greater emphasis on analytics it coincided with Hadoop which also disrupted the market economics I often joked it the ROI of a dupe was reduction on investment and so you saw all these data lakes being built and of course they turned into the data swamps and you had dozens of companies come into the database space which used to be rather boring but Mike Amazon with dynamodb s AP with HANA data stacks Redis Mongo you know snowflake is another one that I'm going to talk about in detail today so you're starting to see the blurring of lines between relational and non relational and what was was what once thought of is no sequel became not only sequel sequel became the killer app for Hadoop and so at any rate you saw this new class of data stores emerging and snowflake was one of the more interesting and and I want to share some of that data with you some of the spending intentions so over the last several weeks and months we've shared spending intentions from ETR enterprise technology research they're a company that that the manages of the spending data and has a panel of about 4,500 end-users they go out and do spending in tension surveys periodically so Alex if you bring up this survey data I want to show you this so this is spending intentions and and what it shows is that the public cloud vendors in snowflake who really is a database as a service offering so cloud like are really leading the pack here so the sector that I'm showing is the enterprise data warehouse and I've added in the the analytics business intelligence and Big Data section so what this chart shows is the vendor on the left-hand side and then this bar chart has colors the the red is we're leaving the platform the gray is our spending will be flat so this is from the July survey expect to expectations for the second half of 2019 so gray is flat the the dark green is increase and the lime green is we are a new customer coming on to the platform so if you take the the greens and subtract out the red and there's two Reds the dark red is leaving the lighter red is spending less so if you subtract the Reds from the greens you get what's called a net score so the higher the net score the better so you can see here the net score of snowflake is 81% so that very very high you can also see AWS in Microsoft a very high and Google so the cloud vendors of which I would consider a snowflake at cloud vendor like at the cloud model all kicking butt now look at Oracle look at the the incumbents Oracle IBM and Tara data Oracle and IBM are in the single digits for a net score and the Terra data is in a negative 10% so that's obviously not a good sign for those guys so you're seeing share gains from the cloud company snowflake AWS Microsoft and Google at the expense of certainly of teradata but likely IBM and Oracle Oracle's little for animal they got Exadata and they're putting a lot of investments in there maybe talk about that a little bit more now you see on the right hand side this black says shared accounts so the N in this survey this July survey that ETR did is a thousand sixty eight so of a thousand sixty eight customers each er is asking them okay what's your spending going to be on enterprise data warehouse and analytics big data platforms and you can see the number of accounts out of that thousand sixty eight that are being cited so snowflake only had 52 and I'll show you some other data from from past surveys AWS 319 Microsoft the big you know whale here trillion dollar valuation 851 going down the line you see Oracle a number you know very large number and in Tara data and IBM pretty large as well certainly enough to get statistically valid results so takeaway here is snowflake you know very very strong and the other cloud vendors the hyper scale is AWS Microsoft and Google and their data stores doing very well in the marketplace and challenging the incumbents now the next slide that I want to show you is a time series for selected suppliers that can only show five on this chart but it's the spending intentions again in that EDW and analytics bi big data segment and it shows the spending intentions from January 17 survey all the way through July 19 so you can see the the period the periods that ETR takes this the snapshots and again the latest July survey is over a thousand n the other ones are very very large too so you can see here at the very top snowflake is that yellow line and they just showed up in the January 19 a survey and so you're seeing now actually you go back one yeah January 19 survey and then you see them in July you see the net score is the July next net score that I'm showing that's 35 that's the number of accounts out of the corpus of data that snowflake had in the survey back in January and now it's up to 52 you can see they lead the packet just in terms of the spending intention in terms of mentions AWS and Microsoft also up there very strong you see big gap down to Oracle and Terra data I didn't show I BM didn't show Google Google actually would be quite high to just around where Microsoft is but you can see the pressure that the cloud is placing on the incumbents so what are the incumbents going to do about it well certainly you're gonna see you know in the case of Oracle spending a lot of money trying to maybe rethink the the architecture refactor the architecture Oracle open worlds coming up shortly I'm sure you're gonna see a lot of new announcements around Exadata they're putting a lot of wood behind the the exadata arrow so you know we'll keep in touch with that and stay tuned but you can see again the big takeaways here is that cloud guys are really disrupting the traditional edw marketplace alright let's talk a little bit about snowflakes so I'm gonna highlight those guys and maybe give a little bit of inside baseball here but what you need to know about snowflakes so I've put some some points here just some quick points on the slide Alex if you want to bring that up very fast-growing cloud and SAS based data warehousing player growing that couple hundred percent annually their annual recurring revenue very high these guys are getting ready to do an IPO talk about that a little bit they were founded in 2012 and it kind of came out of stealth and hiding in 2014 after bringing Bob Moog Leon from Microsoft as the CEO it was really the background on these guys is they're three engineers from Oracle will probably bored out of their mind like you know what we got this great idea why should we give it to Oracle let's go pop out and start a company and that NIN's and as such they started a snowflake they really are disrupting the incumbents they've raised over 900 million dollars in venture and they've got almost a four billion dollar valuation last May they brought on Frank salute Minh and this is really a pivot point I think for the company and they're getting ready to do an IPO so and so let's talk a little bit about that in a moment but before we do that I want to bring up just this really simple picture of Alex if you if you'd bring this this slide up this block diagram it's like a kindergarten so that you know people like you know I can even understand it but basically the innovation around the snowflake architecture was that they they separated their claim is that they separated the storage from the compute and they've got this other layer called cloud services so let me talk about that for a minute snowflake fundamentally rethought the architecture of the data warehouse to really try to take advantage of the cloud so traditionally enterprise data warehouses are static you've got infrastructure that kind of dictates what you can do with the data warehouse and you got to predict you know your peak needs and you bring in a bunch of storage and compute and you say okay here's the infrastructure and this is what I got it's static if your workload grows or some new compliance regulation comes out or some new data set has to be analyzed well this is what you got you you got your infrastructure and yeah you can add to it in chunks of compute and storage together or you can forklift out and put in new infrastructure or you can chase more chips as I said it's that snake swallowing a basketball was not pretty so very static situation and you have to over provision whereas the cloud is all about you know pay buy the drink and it's about elasticity and on demand resources you got cheap storage and cheap compute and you can just pay for it as you use it so the innovation from snowflake was to separate the compute from storage so that you could independently scale those and decoupling those in a way that allowed you to sort of tune the knobs oh I need more compute dial it up I need more storage dial it up or dial it down and pay for only what you need now another nuance here is traditionally the computing and data warehousing happens on one cluster so you got contention for the resources of that cluster what snowflake does is you can spin up a warehouse on the fly you can size it up you can size it down based on the needs of the workload so that workload is what dictates the infrastructure also in snowflakes architecture you can access the same data from many many different houses so you got again that three layers that I'm showing you the storage the compute and the cloud services so let me go through some examples so you can really better understand this so you've got storage data you got customer data you got you know order data you got log files you might have parts data you know what's an inventory kind of thing and you want to build warehouses based on that data you might have marketing a warehouse you might have a sales warehouse you might have a finance warehouse maybe there's a supply chain warehouse so again by separating the compute from that sort of virtualized compute from the from the storage layer you can access any data leave the data where it is and I'll talk about this in more and bring the compute to the data so this is what in part the cloud layer does they've got security and governance they got data warehouse management in that cloud layer and and resource optimization but the key in in my opinion is this metadata management I think that's part of snowflakes secret sauce is the ability to leave data where it is and have the smarts and the algorithms to really efficiently bring the compute to the data so that you're not moving data around if you think about how traditional data warehouses work you put all the data into a central location so you can you know operate on it well that data movement takes a long long time it's very very complicated so that's part of the secret sauce is knowing what data lives where and efficiently bringing that compute to the data this dramatically improves performance it's a game changer and it's much much less expensive now when I come back to Frank's Luqman this is somebody that I've is a career that I've followed I've known had him on the cube of a number of times I first met Frank Sloot when he was at data domain he took that company took it public and then sold it originally NetApp made a bid for the company EMC Joe Tucci in the defensive play said no we're not gonna let Ned afgan it there was a little auction he ended up selling the company for I think two and a half billion dollars sloop and came in he helped clean up the the data protection business of EMC and then left did a stint as a VC and then took over service now when snoop and took over ServiceNow and a lot of people know this the ServiceNow is the the shiny toy on Wall Street today service that was a mess when saluteth took it over it's about 100 120 million dollar company he and his team took it to 1.2 billion dramatically increased the the valuation and one of the ways they did that was by thinking about the Tam and expanding that Tim that's part of a CEOs job as Tam expansion Steuben is also a great operational guy and he brought in an amazing team to do that I'll talk a little bit about that team effect uh well he just brought in Mike Scarpelli he was the CFO was the CFO of ServiceNow brought him in to run finance for snowflake so you've seen that playbook emerge you know be interesting Beth white was the CMO at data domain she was the CMO at ServiceNow helped take that company she's an amazing resource she kind of you know and in retirement she's young but she's kind of in retirement doing some advisory roles wonder if slooping will bring her back I wonder if Dan Magee who was ServiceNow is operational you know guru wonder if he'll come out of retirement how about Dave Schneider who runs the sales team at at ServiceNow well he you know be be lord over we'll see the kinds of things that Sluman looks for just in my view of observing his playbook over the years he looks for great product he looks for a big market he looks for disruption and he looks for off-the-chart ROI so his sales teams can go in and really make a strong business case to disrupt the existing legacy players so I one of the things I said that snoopin looks for is a large market so let's look at this market and this is the thing that people missed around ServiceNow and to credit Pat myself and David for in the back you know we saw the Tam potential of ServiceNow is to be many many tens of billions you know Gartner when they when ServiceNow first came out said hey helpdesk it's a small market couple billion dollars we saw the potential to transform not only IT operations but go beyond helpdesk change management at cetera IT Service Management into lines of business and we wrote a piece on wiki Vaughn back then it's showing the potential Tam and we think something similar could happen here so the market today let's call 20 billion growing to 30 Billy big first of all but a lot of players in here what if so one of the things that we see snowflake potentially being able to do with its architecture and its vision is able to bring enterprise search you know to the marketplace 80% of the data that's out there today sits behind firewalls it's not searchable by Google what if you could unlock that data and access it in query at anytime anywhere put the power in the hands of the line of business users to do that maybe think Google search for enterprises but with provenance and security and governance and compliance and the ability to run analytics for a line of business users it's think of it as citizens data analytics we think that tam could be 70 plus billion dollars so just think about that in terms of how this company might this company snowflake might go to market you by the time they do their IPO you know it could be they could be you know three four five hundred billion dollar company so we'll see we'll keep an eye on that now because the markets so big this is not like the ITSM the the market that ServiceNow was going after they crushed BMC HP was there but really not paying attention to it IBM had a product it had all these products that were old legacy products they weren't designed for the cloud and so you know ServiceNow was able to really crush that market and caught everybody by surprise and just really blew it out there's a similar dynamic here in that these guys are disrupting the legacy players with a cloud like model but at the same time so the Amazon with redshift so is Microsoft with its analytics platform you know teradata is trying to figure it out they you know they've got an inertia of a large install base but it's a big on-prem install base I think they struggle a little bit but their their advantages they've got customers locked in or go with exudate is very interesting Oracle has burned the boats and in gone to cloud first in Oracle mark my words is is reacting everything for the cloud now you can say Oh Oracle they're old school they're old guard that's fine but one of the things about Oracle and Larry Ellison they spend money on R&D they're very very heavy investor in Rd and and I think that you know you can see the exadata as it's actually been a very successful product they will react attacked exadata believe you me to to bring compute to the data they understand you can't just move all this the InfiniBand is not gonna solve their problem in terms of moving data around their architecture so you know watch Oracle you've got other competitors like Google who shows up well in the ETR survey so they got bigquery and BigTable and you got a you know a lot of other players here you know guys like data stacks are in there and you've got you've got Amazon with dynamo DB you've got couch base you've got all kinds of database players that are sort of blurring the lines as I said between sequel no sequel but the real takeaway here from the ETR data is you've got cloud again is winning it's driving the discussion and the spending discussion with an IT watch this company snowflake they're gonna do an IPO I guarantee it hopefully they will see if they'll get in before the booth before the market turns down but we've seen this play by Frank Sluman before and his team and and and the spending data shows that this company is hot you see them all over Silicon Valley you're seeing them show up in the in the spending data so we'll keep an eye on this it's an exciting market database market used to be kind of boring now it's red-hot so there you have it folks thanks for listening is a Dave Volante cube insights we'll see you next time

>> from the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the cue now Here's your host Day Volonte. >> Hello, everyone, this is David lot. They fresh fresh off the red eye from VM World 2019. And what I wanted to do was share with you some analysis that I've done with our friends at E. T. R. Enterprise Technology Research. We've begun introducing you to some of their data. They have this awesome database 4500 panel, a panel of 4500 end users end customers, and they periodically go out and do spending surveys. They've given me access to that spending data and what I wanted to do because because you had a number of companies announced this this quarter, I wanted to do a storage drill down so pure. Announced in late July, Del just announced yesterday late August. Netapp was mid August. HP was last week again late August, and IBM was mid July. So you have all these companies, some of which are pure plays like pure netapp. Others of you know, big systems companies on DSO. But nonetheless, I wanted to squint through the data and share with you the storage spending snapshot for the second half of 2019. So let's start with the macro. >> What you heard on the conference calls was some concern about the economy. There's no question that the tariffs are on people's minds, particularly those with large exposure exposure in China. I mean, Del obviously sells a lot of PCs in China, so they're very much concerned about that. IBM does a lot of business there, pure, really. 70% appears business roughly is North America, so they're not as exposed so But the macro is probably looks like about 2% GDP growth for the quarter i. D. C. Has the overall tech market growing at two ex GDP. Interestingly, a Gartner analyst told me in May on the Cube that there is no correlation between GDP and I t spend, which surprised me. Some people disagree with that, but But that surprised me. But nonetheless, we we still look at GDP and look at that ratio. Sometimes the other macro is component costs for years. For the storage business the last several years, NAND pricing has been a headwind. Supply has been down, it's kept prices up. It has kept all flash arrays more expensive relative to some of the spinning disc spread the brethren something that we thought would attenuate sooner. It finally has. Nan pricing is now a tailwind, so prices air coming down. What that does is it opens up new workloads that we're really kind of the domain of spinning disk before big data kind of workloads is an example. Not exclusively big data, but it just opens up more workloads for storage companies, particularly Flash Cos The other big macro we're seeing is people shifting to subscription models. They want to bring that cloud like model to the data wherever two lives on Prem in ah, hybrid environment in a public cloud and company storage companies trying to be that that data management plane across clouds, whether on prime it. And that's a That's a big deal for a lot of these companies. I'll talk a little bit more about that, so you're seeing this vision of a massively parallel, scalable distributed system play out >> where >> data stays where it lives. Edge on Prem Public Cloud and storage is really a key part of that. Obviously, that's where the data lives, but you're not seeing data move across clouds so much. What you are seeing is metadata, move and compute. Move to the data so that type of architecture is being set up. It's supported by architecture's, not the least of which are all flash, and so I want to get into it. >> Now I want to share with you some data on this slide. If you wouldn't mind bringing it up. Alex on spending momentum. So the title size spending moment of pure leads, the storage packs and what this shows is the vendor on the left hand side. And it essentially looks at the breakdown of the spending survey where e t r ask the buyers of the different companies products. What percent of the spending is going to go toward replacing? They're gonna replace the vendor. Are they gonna decrease? Spend. That's the bright red is replace. The sort of pinkish is decreased, the spending. The gray is flat. The sort of evergreen forest green is increase in the lime. Green is ad, so if you take the lime green in the forest, green ad and the grow on you subtract the rest. You get the net score, so the higher the net score, the better. you can see here that pure storage has the highest net score by far 48%. I'll show you some data later. That correlates to that when we pull out some of the data from the income statements. >> So this is Ah, the >> July 2019 spending intention surveys specifically asking relative to the second half what the spending intentions are. So this looks good for pure on again. I'll show you Cem, Cem Cem Income State income statement data that really affirms this Hewlett Packard Enterprise actually was pretty strong in the spending survey. Particularly nimble is growing HP Overall, the storage business was was down a little bit, I think, three points, but nimble was up 28%. So you're seeing some spending activity there. Netapp did not have a great quarter. They were down substantially. I'll show you that in a minute. On dhe, it looks like they've got some work to do. Deli M. C. I had a flat quarter. Dell has a such a huge install base. They're everywhere on DSO. Everybody wants a piece of their pie. Del. After the merger of the acquisition of the emcee, their storage share declined. They then bounce back. They had a much, much stronger year last year, and now it's sort of a dogfight with the rest. IBM IBM is in a major cycle shift. IBM storage businesses is heavily tied to its mainframe businesses. Mainframe business was way, way down, its overall systems. Business was down, even though power was up a little bit. But the mainframe is what drives the systems business, and it drags along a lot of storage. IBM has got a new mainframe announcement that it's got to get out. It's got a new high end storage announcement that it's got to get out, and it's really relying on that. So you can see here from the E T. R data, you know, pure way out ahead of the pack continues to gain share about over 1000 respondents to this. So a lot of shared accounts by shared accounts mean the number of accounts that that actually have some combination of multiple storage vendors. And so they were able to answer this 1068 respondents pure the clear winner here. Now let's put this into context. So the next slide I want to show you some of the key performance indicators from the June quarter off the income statements. >> So again you see, I get the vendor. The revenue for the quarter of the year to year growth for that quarter relative to last year. The gross margin in the free cash flow, just some of the key performance indicators that I'd like to look at. So look at pure Let's go, Let's go to the third column Look at growth pure 28% growth. Del flat 0% for this is just for storage. There's a storage growth. NETAPP down 16% end up in a bad quarter, HP down 3%. IBM down 21% Do due to the cycle that I discussed, You see the revenue, um, pure, growing very, very fast. But you know, from a small base or at 396 million versus compared that to Dell's 4.2 billion net APs 1,000,000,000 plus H p e. Almost a billion in IBM not nearly as large. And then look at the gross margin line. Pure is the industry's leading gross margin. It's just slightly above 69%. Dell is a blended that Asterix is a blended gross margin, so it includes PCs, servers, service's of V M wear, everything and, of course, storage. So now, when dehl was a public company before it went private, it's gross. Margins were in the high teens. So Del is in gross margin heaven with with both E, M C and V M wear now as part of its portfolio NetApp high gross margins of 67%. But that gross margin is largely driven by its gross margins from software and maintenance. And so that's a screen considerable contributor. Their product gross margins air in the mid fifties, kind of where I think E. M. C. Probably is these days. And when the emcee was a public company, it's gross. Margins were in the mid sixties, but then, as it was before, went private. I think it was dipping into the high fifties as I recall you CHP again, that's a blended gross margin, just roughly around 34%. I don't have as much visibility on their their storage gross margins. I would I would say they are below, in my view, what DMC and net out well below what Netapp would be on then IBM. That's again blended gross margin includes hardware. Software service is 47.4% probably half or more of IBM businesses. Professional service is on. IBM has, of course, a large software business as well. So and then the free cash flow you can see pure crushing it from the standpoint of of gaining share, I mean way, way ahead of the other market players, but only 14 million in free cash flow. So coming from a much, much smaller base, however pure, is purely focused on storage. So there are Andy. All their R and D is going into that storage space. DEL. Free cash flow very large. 3.4 billion that again is across the entire company. Net App. You can see 278 million h p e 648 million great quarter for HP from a free cash flow standpoint, I think year to date they're probably 838 140 million. So big Big quarter. For them. An IBM A 2.4 billion again. Dell, HP, IBM. That's across the company, as is the gross margin. So the the spending data from E. T. R. Really shows us that pure, strong Aziz showed you that very high net score and the intentions look strong, so I would suspect pure is going to continue to lead in the market share game. I don't see that changing. Certainly there's no evidence in the data. I think I think everybody else is in a sort of a dogfight del holding firm, you know, 0%. You'd like to see a little bit of growth out of that, but I think Del is actually, you know, Dell's key metric is, Are we growing faster than the market? That's that's they're sort of a primary criterion in metric for Dell is to grow faster than the overall market because that means you're growing some share. I think Del is comfortable with that. Della's gross margins actually were helped this this quarter by the fact that Dell server business was down 12%. There was a higher storage mix, so it propped up the margin a little bit. But again, generally speaking, it looks like pure is the market share winner here, but much, much smaller than the other guys. HB limbo very strong, and it shows up in the survey data from E T. R. And an IBM just needs to get a new product cycle out. So we'll come back. >> We'll take a look at this in in in in January and see how you know what it looked like and will continue to fall. Obviously, the income statement and the public reporting pure accelerate is coming up next month. Justin in mid September. I have no doubt, you know, pure has been first in a lot of different areas, right? They were first really all flash Ray. The only all flash. You're a company that ever reached escape velocity. They were they in Nutanix for the first kind of new $1,000,000,000 companies that people said would never have a billion dollar company. Pure is a pure play storage company, you know? Well, over a billion. Now, you know, they were first with that evergreen model. They made a lot of play there. You know, the first with envy, Emmy and first with the Nvidia relationships with Superior likes to be first. I have no doubt and accelerate next month down in Austin, curious that they picked Austin in Dell's backyard. I have no doubt that they're gonna have some other firsts at that show. Cuba be there watching just off of the emerald, the other big player here. Of course, that I'm not showing his v. San visa is very, very strong. You know, the D. E. T. Our data shows that, and certainly the data from the income statement shows of'em were NSX, the networking products, their cell phone to find network in their self defined storage of the the the V San. Very, very strong Pat Girl singer on the Cube. We asked him last week, Thio, take us through. So if someone has big memories and one of them was sort of East san, Excuse me. One of them was V San, and the board meeting at with Joe Tucci was on the Vienna where board really put a lot of pressure on Pat's and you can't do this to me. It's funny. Emcee had the shackles on the M, where for a number of years, but the shackles are off and visa is very, very strong. So these are some of the things we're keeping an eye on. Thanks for watching everybody busy day Volante, Cuban sites. We'll see you next time

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Day three Q coverage here in San Francisco for V emerald. 2019. I'm just for a student, Um, in here with David Lan. Take days free kick off. We have two sets wall to wall coverage. Guys, this is the time where we get to take a deep breath two days under our belts look and reflect on all the news we've covered in a dark to last analysis sessions but also kind of riff on. We got two nights in hallway conversations we learned a lot of the party means do. I learned a lot last night. Dave. I know you. You learned a lots, do you, Thomas? When things that the chatter Certainly twittersphere hashtag the emerald. A lot of action on there, but it's the hallway conversations. It's the party that people have a few cocktails in them day that you start to hear the truth. The real deal comes out, >> No doubt. And and again Jon Stewart, there's real concern over from the from the practitioners we talked to about this acquisition spree. Are they going to be integrated? Are they going to just throw all this stuff at us and keep jamming products and service is down our throats? Or is this going to be a coherent set of solutions that solves our problem? We also had a little little interesting side conversation about, you know, Snowflake, Frank's lumens new company and how basically Frank is bringing back the Pirates from Data Domain and from service. Now Mike Scarpelli is over there. He's a rock star. CFO Beth White is eventually is back over there. And Frank's Lupin. He's the guy who takes companies from, you know, 100 million to a billion, so that's gonna be >> very serious money making him going on there. >> We have been following his career for a number of years now. We watched him take data domain. We watched him pull that that rabbit out of his hat with the sale with net app, and then the emcee swooped in. And then we saw what he did service. Now we've documented this is an individual to watch, you know, >> he's a world class management team member I mean, he's executes. >> Oh, yeah, no doubt. And >> he has >> a formula that's been proven and in time and time again. And to me, the biggest testament salute Min is the success of the continued success of Data Domain. After he left Hey, he really helped clean up the emcees data protection mess. Um, and then the second thing is, look at service now is performance after he left, I haven't missed a beat. And, yeah, John Donahoe, great executive and all, but it's because Frank's Lubin had everything in place and that was a really well run >> dry. And they got a nice little oracle like business model. >> Yeah. No, you're right. They kind of, you know, the big complaint now as well. Your price is too high that Oracle. >> What have you learned? What you hear in the hallways? I mean, a lot of chatter. >> Yes, John, we We've been reflecting back a lot. It's 10 years in 10th year of the Cube here and back here in San Francisco. The new Mosconi, our third show that I've been at this year in Mosconi and we always track year to year. But since it's been what 45 years since we were here for VM World. When I talked to the average vendor. When I talk to you know, the analysts here were like, Oh, thank goodness we're not in Vegas. When I talked to the average attendee, they're like, Oh my God, what happened to San Francisco since last time we were here? It is too expensive. And the experience walking around San Francisco has really not nearly as nice as it might have been five or 10 years ago. And many of them we were talking to, Ah, woman that runs an event that has been Vegas in San Francisco. And she said, Oh, we did in San Francisco and got tremendous feedback. Don't do it there again. Brings back to Vegas both for costs and the enjoyment of being around the environment. >> Where was a shit show here in San Francisco is horrible right now, I got to say to your right eye was walking this morning from my hotel. Literally. A homeless person passed out the middle of the sidewalk. Um, your smells like urine. It's P, and it's It's just I mean, it's really bad this tense now. I mean City of San Francisco is gonna do some. Mosconi, by the way, has been rebuilt. Awesome. So, you know, in terms of the new Mosconi stew, that's a serious upgrade. Hotel rooms are scarce and just the homeless problem. It's just ridiculous. I don't know what they're >> doing. So one of the other big things when I was reflecting coming into here two years ago when VM wear really started down right before the war on AWS announcement, they made a big announcement. IBM because they had sold off the cloud air toe Oh, VH And for two years Oh, VH was a big partner, Talked about that transition, said we handed off this great asset over h isn't here at the show. I was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, that was, you know, such a big story and other companies like New >> 12. That's good. One lets someone who's not at the show and why. Yeah, oh, VH wired to hear >> They aren't here because, well, they've got customers. More of them are in Europe That was supposed to be a big entry into the United States. Obviously, it wasn't as valuable for them to be here, even though I'm sure they're still part of that service provider ecosystem. They have other big one for us, and we've had on the Cube Nutanix. You know, we've had Dheeraj Pandey. First time we had him on was that this show is still the majority of Nutanix. Customers are VM where customers I've talked to lots of Nutanix customers at the event, even part of the analyst event. Some of the customers I talked to were like, Oh, yeah, my hardware stacks Nutanix and amusing NSX. And I'm using other things there. But they are not here. They're not allowed to be at the show. And I >> mean, they were blatantly told they can't come. >> They can't come here. They can't come to the regional things. They can't do the partner things. So that that that relationship is definitely >> from red hat. What kind of presence have you seen from Red s? >> So their number companies like red Hat that they're kept at a lower level of sponsorship. So they're here. They participate, you know. Open shift, of course, is you know, big enemy for cloud native. Lots of open shift runs on V sphere. So many of those companies that are part of the ecosystem, but not the ones that they want to celebrate and put front and forward. So it's always interesting kind of walk around on those. Even Microsoft is an interesting relationship for, you know, decades with the M wear. You know, of course, azure they partner with. But hyper V was long a competitors. So, you know, we understand those competitive relationships >> could be interesting. Stew and Dave on the ecosystem Jerry Chan Day when we just doing my interview yesterday on the other set mentioned that the ecosystem reinvents itself the community. The question now is with Delhi emceeing Del Technologies obviously heard Michael Dell essentially laying out his plan, which is he's got. He's trying to keep people distracted, but the bottom line is going to top people putting together the cloud right well service provider model. So you know, that's what he's gonna be a big impact. VM wear the crown jewel of Del Technologies certainly is looking more and more like It's >> well and yesterday remember the first VM world we did in 2010? It was It was del I mean course and see only the time Who's Del? It was H p Yes, the emcee was there, but it was net app. I mean, everybody could've had equal standing yesterday at the keynotes. It was Project Dimension of V M, where cloud on Delhi emcee and long keynotes >> data protection into the VM were >> also it's It's all very heavily, you know, Jeff Clarke has his his thumb on, you know, the the deli emcee folks pushing that through Veum where Michael is orchestrating the whole thing. Pat obviously is allowing it. I was sitting in the audience Next next, Some folks from Netapp they're like, you know, this kind of a bummer. Calvin Sito from h p e tweeted Wow how to stick it in the face of your ecosystem partners. He then later went on Facebook saying, Hey, I love this ecosystem, so sort of balancing it out because, you know, he wants to be a good, good citizen, but clearly the ecosystem partners who basically brought VM where you know, to the the position where it's in through distribution, our little ruffled. Right now you can't blame him, But at the same time, the mandate is clear. Michael Dell is driving his products and his solutions through VM were period the end. And, you know, if you don't like it, leave >> right. They had such great success with V San and VX rail in that joint product development and go to market. If they can replicate that with a number of other solutions, they get that the synergies. If >> you don't like it, don't leave. That leave is worse than that. They say you don't like it, you know, invited you. But >> how about what Pat said yesterday in the Cube about when they announced on Gwen heavily leaned into V san. He said publicly that Joe Tucci was pissed and I hate her. They were going at it so that so that shows you the change, right? I mean, so so so e m. C. When it owned VM where was very cautious about allowing Veum wears a software company to drive value somewhere Now is just acting like a software company. >> Well, I think I mean, I learned last night's do, um and you can appreciate this. I learned that the top executives of'em where are looking heavily and working hard at understanding and drive them kubernetes cloud native thing because this is not a throwaway deal. This is not a you know, far anything that they are investing. They get their top brass tech execs on kubernetes fto. Two big players job. Ada, Craig McCaw calumnies. We know interviews since day one, but I think the cloud native thing is going to be interesting. And I think it's gonna be evolution. I think there's gonna be a very dynamic road thing's gonna be a series, of course, corrections, but directionally they're all in on. They're going for it, they're not. >> And actually, I had a, you know, good discussion with Chad Attack. It's a good friend of the program now working at GM, where for the first time, but came from AMC worked at Pivotal. He said, culturally, such a gap between VM wear don't have to touch your app, you know, move everything along lifted shift is nice and easy versus pivotal, you know must go completely You know, dual programming, you know, agile everything there, so bridging those because there's multiple paths and the rail pharaoh announcement is that would be cloud native stuff that won't necessarily go to the EMS. We're going to retool V EMS to now be a platform for kubernetes so that they have a few passed to bridge or to build towards the future. Here's the >> answer strategy. Discussion That and Rayo Farrell was now running Cloud native. Think this is just really >> ties in the interesting discussion that I had with some folks was that you've essentially got well, Jerry Chen brought this up last time we had him on it and reinventing because >> we have >> a conversation all the time about this Amazon have to go up the stack. And Jerry Chen made a really he said, Look, it they're not They're not gonna become an e r peace offer company. What they're gonna do is give tools to the builders so that they can disrupt Europea. They can disrupt service. Now they can disrupt Oracle. That's their strategy, at least for now. Okay, so what does that say? I think the strategy discussion inside of'em were and and l is about by whatever clouds gonna be 35 to 50% of the market. Fine. And the cloud native abs. Great. But you got this mission critical. E r p is an example. Database saps that are on Prem. What we have to do is keep them there. So we're going to sell to the incumbents and we're going to give them cloud native tools, toe modernize. Those APS have build new acts on Prem, and that's the that is the collision course that's coming. So the big question is, can the cloud native guys and AWS disrupt that >> huge? I've always said I'm is on and like the way they're coming in, a tsunami is coming in. And who's gonna build that sea wall to stop it right? And that's essentially only hope that these guys have. You look at all the competitive strategy. Was Oracle. Whoever just gotta stop it? You can't like >> the sea >> wall. That's a great building. A sea wall I was, I would say, is Is that you know, they're only hope at this point is to, you know, get in the game because see Amazon is the stack. They're not really moving up the stack. You hear that from Cisco and Dale and other people? That's where it's a game of musical chairs. Right now, the music's you know, there's still a lot of shares left, but soon chairs getting pulled away and Cisco Deli emcee VM, where they're all fighting for these big chairs. And one >> thing >> we talked about yesterday is that VM wears very directional, product driven. Otherwise they pick a direction, is a statement of direction and don't really have a lot of meat on the bone. In the product side, Sister is actually in market with service providers there in market with NETWORKINGS to this no vapor there that's installed basis and incumbent business. You have developers Esso Baton talks about suffered to find data center, suffer defined networking. I mean, come on, Really. I mean, they're getting there, but it didn't have the complete solution. Cisco >> Coming into this week, I expected here a bit more about the progress and all the customers of'em wear on AWS and feel like Vienna actually downplayed the AWS. We know what a strong partnership it is at every Amazon show we go to, and we got a lot of them Now there's a big presence there, and I can talk to customers that are starting to roll out and move there, but it felt like it was David's. You pointed out there are some messaging differences when you talk about multi cloud and how they're positioning it. So, you know, put those >> here Amazon. If your Amazon you're not happy with Microsoft Dell Technologies World The big announcement that was positioned a cloud foundation Although it wasn't a joint engineering, But the press picked it up as though the Amazon deal has been replicated with Microsoft and Google. I mean, you gotta be gotta be hurt if your Amazon >> So I've I've just been taking notes this this event, there's I've noted at least five major points of difference between a W s what they're saying and their philosophy and the anywhere so eight of us. We know they they don't talk multi cloud. They've told their partners, If you're doing joint marketing with us, you cannot say multi cloud aws that reinforce John. We saw this. Steven Schmidt said that this narrative that security is broken doesn't help the industry. Security's not broken, you know, we're doing great. The state of the nation is wonderful. Aws Matt. Not really. I agree. By the way. Uh, that's not the case. I agree with Pat saying Security's broken. It's a do over VM where wants to be the best infrastructure and developer software company. Who's the best infrastructure and software development platform. Eight of us. The M one wants to be the security cloud. Who's the security cloud? Eight of us. And then, uh, they talked about 10,000 cloud data Listeners are those really cloud data centers at Vienna. And the last one was this was a little nuanced Veum was talking about We know about migrating, modernize, lifted ship shift and then modernize The empire's not talking about modernize and then migrate. If you want to. I totally in conflict >> as a collision course. That's got Look, look, look at the data center was Look, it looks like we're going. We're going away, right to the data center. Staying. That's music to Michael Dell's VM. Where's years they live in the Data City? Do you pointed out yesterday? Data Senate goes away. So does begin. Where's business? >> One of things. I'm surprised. I'm wondering you both have talked to some of the service fighter telco pieces of'em, where they're doing that project dimension, which is the VM where stack on del that looks just like outposts on. And I know they had deployments on this for months. If I was them, you know, it's everybody's hearing about Outpost to talk about it, being more like we're already doing it in. This has you in that Amazon ecosystem. It might be a little strong for the Amazon story, but have you been hearing any about that this week? >> I think they keep a lot of cards close to the chest, but it's clear from the announces that they're doing certainly del the VM, where on Delhi Emcee Cloud or whatever it's called, it's not a cloud but their their infrastructure that is essentially a managed service. That's gonna be really strong for I t. People, because I think that the value proposition of going toe i t and saying we have this, you don't need to do anything. It's very strong, I mean, because I didn't want him >> and justified because this the project to mention it is that single, that thinner stack like what we saw on Outpost in the Amazon video, as opposed to Veum, where cloud on AWS, which is the full C i r h d. I stack. >> I haven't heard anything still on >> well, but the conversation I had from from Vienna, where standpoint, they could make money on that manage service. That's why it's the preferred partnership, right? And so that's their part of their cloud play. If you don't have a public cloud, I said this yesterday, you have to redefine Cloud and you have to get into cloud service. And that's what's happening. And that's exactly what's happening. And what I like about what V M where is doing is they are transitioning their model to a sass based model. Now it's only 12 and 1/2 percent of the revenues today. But both pivotal and carbon black are gonna add, you know, ah, $1,000,000,000 next year to that subscription based $3 billion in year two. Um, and so you know, Pat said the other day, I think we could get to 50 50. I don't necessarily think in the near term we're gonna go beyond that. It's not the Adobe >> way could be critical. Critical of'em were in some areas, but I gotta tell you their core strength that they went to a software operators on the data center friend of prices. That's been a great strategy. Focusing on their core building from there is Jerry 10 point out adding other products so their software company, So I think they're really got a good solution. And you? The data shows that people are increasing their spending, John. Just one based on >> that. Because I had a couple of really good conversation with customers, customers that would deploy VCF So they've got the full stack on there. So using H C I, but not necessarily on Dell hardware, could be Cisco Hardware. Could be HB hardware in the like or they're buying NSX. But the virtual ization team owns it, and they get kind of put in. A box storage team says That's not the array I'm used to buy. Well, maybe I'll put a pure storage box and put it in between. The networking team says I'm refreshing my Cisco hardware. You know, we're like, but we have NSX, and it's great. Well, you can use NSX over there. We're going to use a C I over here. So the term I heard from a number of customers is organizations still have hardware to find roles, and they're trying to figure out how to move to that software world. Which hurts me, cause I spent years trying to get beyond silos and helping people you know, move through those environments. And still, in 2019 it's a big challenge. That organizational shift is we know how tough that is. >> So just couple points in the data, because you're right. There are some countervailing trends, though. So, yes, people are spending Maurin VM where in the second half. But at the same time, the data shows that cloud is hurting VM wear spend. So this that's kind of gets interesting. Our containers gonna kill VM where? No, there's no evidence that container's air hurting VM where spend. But there's clearly risks there, you know, as we've talked about who's best position of multi cloud. Well, it turns out three guys with the public cloud are best positioned in multi Google and Microsoft on, and so and then the pivotal thing is interesting, and ties ties all this in so that the data is actually really interesting. It's like you're seeing tugs at both sides, and I think your your notion about the seawall is dead on. That's exactly what they're doing. >> You see that with Oracle's trying to stop jet. I just want they can't win this one to stop Amazon just on the tracks gave great data. Great reporting, Stoop. Good observations. Get all the day that night and parties we're gonna certainly keep doing that. Day three of wall to wall coverage here. You bringing to the insights and interviews here live from the Emerald Twin 19. Stay with us for more after this short break.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to two cubes. Live coverage in San Francisco, California for VM World 2019. I'm John Ferrier, Postal Cuba David Lattin, My Coast, Dave. 10 years covering the BM World Paul Maritz laid out the stack early on. We saw that and watch it go through Its motions now >> remain from the marketing people got a hold of >> that mainframe turned into cloud Now hybrid cloud seven years after we first started about 2012 has been great Our next guest, Paul Falsone, S V. P and general manager of the Cloud Native APS. This is a business unit within VM where that is going to the next level. This is the Act three is Jerry Chen said any of you I talked earlier for VM wears a company. I won't say moving up the staff because there is no stack. It's cloud, right? So its applications on top of operating infrastructure Dev ops going enterprise scale is about developers building APS operating them in scale. This is a big focus of what you're doing. >> It is a dead end of the day. One of my close friend of mine, who's in front of customers all the time, reminds our team constantly that our customers applications matter of the most cause. That's what they used to get in front of their customers with the Dillman teams and the tools they're building the user. Japs come second cause that's what supports the abs. And then the infrastructure comes third zone away. There is that stacks it, but never forget you were at the bottom of the pecking order, if you will, when it comes to ultimately bringing full customer value to our company, our customers, businesses. >> And it's one of the things we've been looking back at our 10 years covering VM where I think you're 13 15 of'em world is that the virtual ization of all very quickly around really optimizing server virtualization really kind of change. The game of one kind of knows that our knows the history there, but it did it without any code changes, too, APs and I think that was a very innovative thing. Now we looking containers and what Kubernetes is bringing to the table. You're starting to get some clear visibility into what's happening and what's possible. Could >> you >> share your vision on what that visibility is that you guys are eyeing for the marketplace in four of'em, where, >> sure, the APP development methodologies are changing, changing more today than they have in the last 20 years. We're seeing ah lot of new concepts and approaches that right now really only accessible to a small percentage of application developers worldwide. We want to try to bring those application development methodologies, practices tools to the mainstream so we can. We can touch the 13 or $14 million.1,000,000 enterprise developers around the world and help the CEOs in their line of business counterparts at our customers get a CZ much productivity out of their development teams as possible. At the end of the day, those APS we're gonna power the next decade of those organizations success or failures with their customers, and so that's becoming a real competitive asset. I've had a number of customer discussions here this week where the primary theme is how me help my developers move faster at enterprise scale, but in a regulated environment in an environment where compliance is is front center >> to big things going on in your world that we covered extensively, honestly, pretty impactful to the Vienna, where portfolio one as open source and hefty oh, acquisition half a billion dollars almost a year ago, about a year left in less than a year, probably was that we close in December last year. So yes, ovary. Just recently we know those guys all people. I mean, I've been covering that for a while, and then I'll see the pivotal acquisition. Just announced a drink from the fire hose. There be doing tons of press briefings, those to impact points, kind of leaving a mark. >> So we've been we've been building up to this. I joined AA Drink them were in 2012 through the Sierra acquisition, but I moved into this role about just about three years ago, and one of the things that we identified early on was, ah, close partnership with Pivotal was going to be essential inside of the Del Technologies umbrella for us to exist in thrive together. And so that's where the idea for P Cass was born. So the combination of V. M. R. R and D with pivotal RND focused on delivering our first community service to our enterprise. Customers we brought helped you in last year. Once they saw what we were doing and thought about the possibility of what would happen if we actually took some of the concepts of communities and p ks and embed them into V sphere, That was, I think, the real ah ha moment for for us and the happier team coming together in the power of what that could enable. But all along the way, we always believed that that was just covering the infrastructure side of the equation. You still needed to get through the making the APP developers productive and efficient in this new infrastructure world and so on to be able to do so on any cloud. And that's where the pivotal piece finally came together last just last month. July Pivotal put out a lot of information in the market around how they're evolving their portfolio to be very cool, bernetti centric, moving forward. And that was a big part about getting all the pieces lined up so that the M word could deliver what we announced this week. The in the town's a portfolio with the component tree for building running in managing modern applications on any club, >> we've kind of come full circle here, predates, and I Sarah, But you guys talking about the stack? Yeah. Paul Moretz. I used to have the whole stack. Ed actually applications up here with Simba. Spring sources around. Exactly. And then you had these when I used to call the misfit toys. Have you had some assets in the M. C as coming in Vienna, where Paul Maritz, Joe Tucci decided, create pivotal as the The platform developed next generation applications. Now it's all come full circle there. So my question is related to that stack and particularly the death part of that stack. This audience is not Deb's not, but increasingly, you've gotta attract that audience. So what's what's your thoughts there? And so >> I think pivotals done a very nice job over the years through the Con Foundry Foundation. The work they've done there through the spring community Spring is at this stage is is arguably the most popular modern Java development environment on the planet. So, you know, we're seeing a tremendous amount of leverage of that of that framework and so between the events of pimples is actively involved in Leeds and their ability to help customers, um teach their enterprise developers how to get the most out of this modern tool kit. We think that there is some wonderful ingredients to a recipe to really scale this thing up in a big way. We way. I also believe that Veum we're still has a lot to learn about what it means to best support enterprise developers and their organizations. And so we are quite a bit in learning mode right now. We're gonna take a lot of lessons from the pivotal team as we as we move forward towards the close and learn a lot more about the team in the culture and their customer engagements. But one of the things I think is is front and center to what pivotal has for customers today is their transformation Service's customers. You've got different groups inside a customer summer looking to build the newest applications. Some of them are just trying to get more operational efficiency out of what they have today. Some of these customers have 12,000 applications in their environments. Um, pivotal has ah set of service is that come in and they help them take their existing monolithic applications and just modernize key components of them so they can operate them more efficiently and reclaim a lot of resources to go do other things. That, I think is probably the lowest hanging fruit for enterprise organizations today. And I'm very, very excited about the service is that pimple has to make available the customers on that front. >> Assad and Jerry Chen, earlier than the other set I was mentioning earlier is a VC now, Greylock, big time to your one. We see former VM Where, uh, guy from 22,003. He also worked on cloud foundries in sight. We ask about the white spaces where starts to thrive in one of the transit is kind of pointing to was have some cummings going public. Some are being bought at sizable numbers, but we rift on. The idea of monitoring was a boring category right now. Observe ability, which is just be monitoring 2.0, you got I pose. You got acquisitions. I mean, major action happening in this observe ability space. I bring this up because that's an area you think, Oh, it's a white space Data opportunities for companies to build service is really points to this cloud. 2.0 application Renaissance And I want to get your thoughts on that environment. What needs to be in place to make that happen? Honestly, pivotals keep for you guys. I get that on Vienna. Where side, but for the ecosystem and for the marketplace, people trying to make careers and or do things What is that cloud 2.0, complexity that need to be abstracted away or >> so The Pepto team had a great Craig and Joe had this great, uh, one liner on kubernetes is all about where the people structure meets the infrastructure. When you think about that, our enterprise organizations have thousands if not tens of thousands of developers all trying to do similar. But a lot of cases different things at the same time, across lots of different cloud infrastructures. On the infrastructure team side, you've got private cloud, you've got hybrid cloud. You've got public cloud environments that you have to get your arms around, monitor, manage, secure and get visibility into. We believe that Carini sits at that perfect layer between the two domains on. This is a big part of why we developed Tom's a mission control. It's just that that perfect layer between the two domains, too, access the company's later and give you full visibility into what all of your developers were doing on every piece of your infrastructure. And we also think that's gonna be a very interesting place for third parties to plug into to gain access to all of the community's clusters that we're helping. Our customers managed across their app landscape to do very interesting things. And so we're really excited about the ecosystem that that project will open up. >> You think this opportunity to start ups in there? >> I do. I do. I think there's a ton of other I mean, think about it just really basic math. Ah, VM based application. When it gets containerized, it has just on the compute side alone. Never mind the networking in the storage site. There are 10 times as many moving parts. A typical containerized EPA's 10 times as many moving parts as avian bay Step. If you think about that applied to the networking layer, you think about that applied to the storage layer, the security layer. You've got 10 times as many points to secure. Now, how do you get your head around that level of complexity As a an operations person, you can't do it. Humans can't do it anywhere. You can't write down your actions. Control this on a pad of paper and know what's what's accessing what anymore, >> Dave. One more question, if I may, on the on the VM container thing, there's a debate or are architectural kind of conversation, and customers are having around when to do containers in three days on bare metal or with V EMS. How do you guys talk to that house? The >> steam going because that was my question. So there was a snarky tweets yesterday. I want to get your reaction to it. And the tweet was during yesterday's keynote. I thought we we launched pivotal so that we didn't have to run containers on V EMS. Now the reality to your point is that people are running containers on bare metal. They're running him on vehement the EMS. I don't have any data, but I wonder if you could comment on that >> so way Probably have a couple of snarky comments of our own on this three share one of the things that put up on stage. Yes, I'll start at the kind of a little little. And I worked my way up at the base layer. The testing we're doing with Project Pacific, which is something we announced this week, which is effectively bringing kubernetes into the heart of the sphere. We're actually using combinations to make the sphere better. We're also going to expose communities to our customers through V sphere, just like we exposed the EMS today. This is a pretty exciting project for the for the company in our early testing of this project, based on the advanced scheduling capabilities of the SX hyper visor take advantage of modern hardware. We're seeing an 8% better performance in a certain test sweet versus what you'd see on bare metal so are ready at the early stages. We're seeing some benefits now take that a step further. The big public college for writers out there if you look at service is like G K on Google. If you look at a ks, uh, recast on Amazon, a cast on his door, every single one of their community service is is run against a virtualized environment, not on a bare metal environment. Why is that? Well, because their customers are using containers in VM, side by side, the flexibility you get out of that virtualization layer. Whether you're a big public cloud provider or your ah smaller enterprise shop running your own data centers, the benefits are proportionate, rather equal on dso >> the narratives off a little bit. What you're saying. What I hear you saying is people use virtualization for a lot of efficiency and scale reasons that's independent of what happens with bearnaise decisions. So if you decide you want to run Cubans on bare metal, go >> to go to town. We think >> if you want to do that, >> you want to do that. But we don't. We actually see a lot of customers who have started down that path. When they go to get to that operational stage, they're realizing they're now dealing with firm where again, they're dealing with Nick drivers again. They're dealing with stuff, and they can easily take that and turn it over to their ops team that's already managing a huge virtualized state and operated with the same tool. >> That's a really a layer thing around round scale. You do the virtual ization for Ryan reasons, and then cos sits on top of it for a whole another reason. >> And the I'd say its operations scale these operations teams need to, you know, just look at the number of announcements we made this week. For an ops team to get their head around all of these new technologies simultaneously is impossible to bring them in one new capability of time into the thing that they're already operating for. That organization is very >> positive. If I understood yesterday, you're claiming better before 8% better performance relative to bare metal. I know that's apples to apples. Or what kind of juicing you're doing on the benchmark >> sex schedule that it chooses it right there. >> I want to ask you about integration and look at it as a quasi. His story of the the industry. You go back to see A with all the acquisitions, right? Historical force it with fusion. Different layer of the stack. I know. Certainly Del did a lot of acquisitions. Some of them work. Some of them didn t m c. Same thing pretty successful. Actually. VM were great engineering. Um, very strong. Go to market on really good acquisitions. My question is on integration with the nice Sarah background, I wonder. I mean, nice. Sarah seems to be very well integrated into the VM. Where platform How is integration The state of integration today within V. M. Where is it a lot easier today because we're living in this AP I economy. What about VM? Wears sort of integration ethos. One of the challenges. I wonder if you could comment and that long. So >> I've been through, uh, to significant integrations of'em where the 1st 1 was with this nice era on. I was on the I was on the incoming side, not the receiving side. The next was with hep Theo. I was on the receiving side, not the incoming side. And so, as coming into this year, back in 2012 Pat was extremely supportive and asked his entire team to be very supportive of getting us integrated quickly and productive. A CZ fastest possible. We were on campus on the via more campus from the next era office within days of the deal closing. That's how efficient Veum work. That's like that's the mindset hammerhead coming into. We were in a building. We were co located with the other networking engineers and product managers. Within the first week on, we were off to the races. That was about 100 20 person company. Hep Ko is about 100% company, Um, about the same efficiency we were consolidating. Offices were bringing them over again, mostly distributed team, but they had a center of gravity. In Seattle. We had a center of gravity in Bellevue. We brought the team's over within within a couple of months in about three months. In three and 1/2 months in, we had the team fully integrated. The organizational design done all the tools in a greater we're all in the same systems. So what happens very quickly now, an organization that's much bigger like like pivotal 3000 employees. Public company takes a little bit longer to get from Deal announced the deal close because it's too public entities. It'll take a little bit longer to do all the integration, but we're already thinking thinking about we know them so well and they know us so well. We already know where the potential landmines are, where the potential rough spots are. Pat prides himself and, uh, this pushes down into the rest of them were on well, welcoming new team members in new groups into the company. And so we try to do that really were very culturally sensitive way optimized for the right tool kit s O that we take, we take some learning like cloud health. When they came in, they had a lot of expertise around. SAS drooling and support of customers were adopting all of that, right. Were jettisoned some of our older tools in favor of some of the things that >> we're gonna win the modernization. So I want to get your thoughts on the last question for the second congratulations, your your your area. We love what you're doing. We think it's super important. Would be covering it like a blanket this year and going forward. But Pakistan came on was wrapped. Talking about 10 years and doing the riffing on the Cube are 10 years covering it. We have some 10 years forward, which waves to be on. They highlighted on the past 10 years in this ear acquisition as a critical moment to bring VM. We're into the S T D C kind of concept started networking up, so we know the history they're sti n and then going forward, he says. If you're not a networking and security in the next wave and Kubernetes is Number one, you're really gonna be missing out. So we highlighted networking, security and kubernetes. But networking. It's nice here on both sides of that 10 year spectrum. You're part of that. >> Why is that? Why is that wise >> watching people know that networking is the most important piece of the wave here? What's the relevance of what he's saying? Share their thoughts on >> Think about the increasing complexity of what at modernization drives into the infrastructure. You're getting smaller and smaller moving parts that that need to operate together at scale in a comprehensive, logical way. But at any point in time, if you're if you're an enterprise organization, if you've got if you've got compliance requirements, audit ability, requirements. If you want to protect, you hear about the number of of small towns that get blackmailed on a daily basis because someone's secured an encrypted There, there, there count taxpayer data and they're there, their victims. All right, this is this >> is some say, cyber warfare. >> It is something. So if you think about in orderto help, our customers get the most out of their developers, these tools that open up I think the potential of a lot more avenues of attack get a lot more complex. And so we think that these two have to progress hand in hand. One. We do want to help developers go as fast as possible. We won't help enterprises get the most out of those developers. That's a big part of why we brought them were into into the damn warfare. We're bringing a pivotal into the VM. We're family, but at the same time, we recognize that the infrastructure has to progress. Every bit is fast, and the network is the thing that ties all these parts together. Whether it's a layer three year layer for networking today or level layer several networking layer seven AP I based networking in the future >> all. I mean, I'm not gonna bring up I ot or industrial i ot to takeovers of physical devices, whether it's a self driving bus off a cliff or taking over towns and cities warfare, I mean the service areas of enormous networks, Internet connectivity applications over the cloud native. Anyway, we know that, right? So a lot to talk about. Thanks for coming on. The Cube Sharing your insight. Senior Vice President, General manager, The Cloud Native APS Group. This is really the key instrument with envy em where to take kubernetes and the advancement of cloud to 0.0 to the next level. I'm John for a day. Volante, be back after this short break.