>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Caesars in Las Vegas. My name is Dave ante. We're here with the chairman and CEO of snowflake, Frank Luman. Good to see you again, Frank. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, >>You, you as well, Dave. Good to be with you. >>No, it's, it's awesome to be, obviously everybody's excited to be back. You mentioned that in your, in your keynote, the most amazing thing to me is the progression of what we're seeing here in the ecosystem and of your data cloud. Um, you wrote a book, the rise of the data cloud, and it was very cogent. You talked about network effects, but now you've executed on that. I call it the super cloud. You have AWS, you know, I use that term, AWS. You're building on top of that. And now you have customers building on top of your cloud. So there's these layers of value that's unique in the industry. Was this by design >>Or, well, you know, when you, uh, are a data clouding, you have data, people wanna do things, you know, with that data, they don't want to just, you know, run data operations, populate dashboards, you know, run reports pretty soon. They want to build applications and after they build applications, they wanna build businesses on it. So it goes on and on and on. So it, it drives your development to enable more and more functionality on that data cloud. Didn't start out that way. You know, we were very, very much focused on data operations, then it becomes application development and then it becomes, Hey, we're developing whole businesses on this platform. So similar to what happened to Facebook in many, in many ways, you know, >>There was some confusion I think, and there still is in the community of, particularly on wall street, about your quarter, your con the consumption model I loved on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked Mike, you know, do you ever consider going to a subscription model? And Mike got cut him off, then let finish. No, that would really defeat the purpose. Um, and so there's also a narrative around, well, maybe snowflake, consumption's easier to dial down. Maybe it's more discretionary, but I, I, I would say this, that if you're building apps on top of snowflake and you're actually monetizing, which is a big theme here, now, your revenue is aligned, you know, with those cloud costs. And so unless you're selling it for more, you know, than it costs more than, than you're selling it for, you're gonna dial that up. And that is the future of, I see this ecosystem in your company. Is that, is that fair? You buy that. >>Yeah, it, it is fair. Obviously the public cloud runs on a consumption model. So, you know, you start looking all the layers of the stack, um, you know, snowflake, you know, we have to be a consumption model because we run on top of other people's, uh, consumption models. Otherwise you don't have alignment. I mean, we have conversations, uh, with people that build on snowflake, um, you know, they have trouble, you know, with their financial model because they're not running a consumption model. So it's like square pack around hole. So we all have to align ourselves. So that's when they pay a dollar, you know, a portion goes to, let's say, AWS portion goes to the snowflake of that dollar. And the portion goes to whatever the uplift is, application value, data value, whatever it is to that goes on top of that. So the whole dollar, you know, gets allocated depending on whose value at it. Um, we're talking about. >>Yeah, but you sell value. Um, so you're not a SaaS company. Uh, at least I don't look at you that that way I I've always felt like the SAS pricing model is flawed because it's not aligned with customers. Right. If you, if you get stuck with orphaned licenses too bad, you know, pay us. >>Yeah. We're, we're, we're obviously a SaaS model in the sense that it is software as a service, but it's not a SaaS model in the sense that we don't sell use rights. Right. And that's the big difference. I mean, when you buy, you know, so many users from, you know, Salesforce and ServiceNow or whoever you have just purchased the right, you know, for so many users to use that software for this period of time, and the revenue gets recognized, you know, radically, you know, one month at a time, the same amount. Now we're not that different because we still do a contract the exact same way as SA vendor does it, but we don't recognize the revenue radically. We recognize the revenue based on the consumption, but over the term of the contract, we recognize the entire amount. It just is not neatly organized in these monthly buckets. >>You know? So what happens if they underspend one quarter, they have to catch up by the end of the, the term, is that how it works or is that a negotiation or it's >>The, the, the spending is a totally, totally separate from the consumption itself, you know, because you know how they pay for the contract. Let's say they do a three year contract. Um, you know, they, they will probably pay for that, you know, on an annual basis, you know, that three year contract. Um, but it's how they recognize their expenses for snowflake and how we recognize the revenue is based on what they actually consume. But it's not like you're on demand where you can just decide to not use it. And then I don't have any cost, but over the three year period, you know, all of that, you know, uh, needs to get consumed or they expire. And that's the same way with Amazon. If I don't consume what I buy from Amazon, I still gotta pay for it. You know, so, >>Well, you're right. Well, I guess you could buy by the drink, but it's way, way more expensive and nobody really correct. Does that, so, yep. Okay. Phase one, better simpler, you know, cloud enterprise data warehouse, phase two, you introduced the, the data cloud and, and now we're seeing the rise of the data cloud. What, what does phase three look like >>Now? Phase, phase three is all about applications. Um, and we've just learned, uh, you know, from the beginning that people were trying to do this, but we weren't instrumental at all to do it. So people would ODBC, you know, JDBC drivers just uses as database, right? So the entire application would happen outside, you know, snowflake, we're just a database. You connect to the database, you know, you read or right data, you know, you do data, data manipulations. And then the application, uh, processing all happens outside of snowflake. Now there's issues with that because we start to exfil trade data, meaning that we started to take data out of snowflake and, and put it, uh, in other places. Now there's risk for that. There's operational risk, there's governance, exposure, security issues, you know, all this kind of stuff. And the other problem is, you know, data gets Reed. >>It proliferates. And then, you know, data science tests are like, well, I, I need that data to stay in one place. That's the whole idea behind the data cloud. You know, we have very big infrastructure clouds. We have very big application clouds and then data, you know, sort of became the victim there and became more proliferated and more segment. And it's ever been. So all we do is just send data to the work all day. And we said, no, we're gonna enable the work to get to the data. And the data that stays in more in place, we don't have latency issue. We don't have data quality issues. We don't have lineage issues. So, you know, people have responded very, very well to the data cloud idea, like, yeah, you know, as an enterprise or an institution, you know, I'm the epicenter of my own data cloud because it's not just my own data. >>It's also my ecosystem. It's the people that I have data networking relationships with, you know, for example, you know, take, you know, uh, an investment bank, you know, in, in, in, in New York city, they send data to fidelity. They send data to BlackRock. They send data to, you know, bank of New York, all the regulatory clearing houses, all on and on and on, you know, every night they're running thousands, tens of thousands, you know, of jobs pushing that data, you know, out there. It just, and they they're all on snowflake already. So it doesn't have to be this way. Right. So, >>Yes. So I, I asked the guys before, you know, last week, Hey, what, what would you ask Frank? Now? You might remember you came on, uh, our program during COVID and I was asking you how you're dealing with it, turn off the news. And it was, that was cool. And I asked you at the time, you know, were you ever, you go on Preem and you said, look, I'll never say never, but it defeats the purpose. And you said, we're not gonna do a halfway house. Actually, you were more declarative. We're not doing a halfway house, one foot in one foot out. And then the guy said, well, what about that Dell deal? And that pure deal that you just did. And I, I think I know the answer, but I want to hear from you did a customer come to you and say, get you in the headlock and say, you gotta do this. >>Or it did happen that way. Uh, it, uh, it started with a conversation, um, you know, via with, uh, with Michael Dell. Um, it was supposed to be just a friendly chat, you know, Hey, how's it going? And I mean, obviously Dell is the owner of data, the main, or our first company, you know? Um, but it's, it, wasn't easy for, for Dell and snowflake to have a conversation because they're the epitome of the on-premise company and we're the epitome of a cloud company. And it's like, how, what do we have in common here? Right. What can we talk about? But, you know, Michael's a very smart, uh, engaging guy, you know, always looking for, for opportunity. And of course they decided we're gonna hook up our CTOs, our product teams and, you know, explore, you know, somebody's, uh, ideas and, you know, yeah. We had some, you know, starts and restarts and all of that because it's just naturally, you know, uh, not an easy thing to conceive of, but, you know, in the end it was like, you know what? >>It makes a lot of sense. You know, we can virtualize, you know, Dell object storage, you know, as if it's, you know, an S three storage, you know, from Amazon and then, you know, snowflake in its analytical processing. We'll just reference that data because to us, it just looks like a file that's sitting on, on S3. And we have, we have such a thing it's called an external table, right. That's, that's how we basically, it projects, you know, a snowflake, uh, semantic and structural model, you know, on an external object. And we process against it exactly the same way as if it was an internal, uh, table. So we just extended that, um, you know, with, um, with our storage partners, like Dell and pure storage, um, for it to happen, you know, across a network to an on-prem place. So it's very elegant and it, it, um, it becomes an, an enterprise architecture rather than just a cloud architecture. And I'm, I just don't know what will come of it. And, but I've already talked to customers who have to have data on premises just can't go anywhere because they process against it, you know, where it originates, but there are analytical processes that wanna reference attributes of that data. Well, this is what we'll do that. >>Yeah. I'm, it is interesting. I'm gonna ask Dell if I were them, I'd be talking to you about, Hey, I'm gonna try to separate compute from storage on prem and maybe do some of the, the work there. I don't even know if it's technically feasible. It's, I'll ask OI. But, um, but, but, but to me, that's an example of your extending your ecosystem. Um, so you're talking now about applications and that's an example of increasing your Tam. I don't know if you ever get to the edge, you know, we'll see, we're not quite quite there yet, but, um, but as you've said before, there's no lack of market for you. >>Yeah. I mean, obviously snowflake it it's, it's Genesis was reinventing database management in, in a cloud computing environment, which is so different from a, a machine environment or a cluster environment. So that's why, you know, we're, we're, we're not a, a fit for a machine centric, uh, environment sort of defeats the purpose of, you know, how we were built. We, we are truly a native solution. Most products, uh, in the clouds are actually not cloud native. You know, they, they originated the machine environments and you still see that, you know, almost everything you see in the cloud by the way is not cloud native, our generation of applications. They only run the cloud. They can only run the cloud. They are cloud native. They don't know anything else, >>You know? Yeah, you're right. A lot of companies would just wrap something in wrap their stack in Kubernetes and throw it into the cloud and say, we're in the cloud too. And you basically get, you just shifted. It >>Didn't make sense. Oh. They throw it in the container and run it. Right. Yeah. >>So, okay. That's cool. But what does that get you that doesn't change your operational model? Um, so coming back to software development and what you're doing in, in that regard, it seems one of the things we said about Supercloud is in order to have a Supercloud, you gotta have an ecosystem, you gotta have optionality. Hence you're doing things like Apache iceberg, you know, you said today, well, we're not sure where it's gonna go, but we offering options. Uh, but, but my, my question is, um, as it pertains to software developments specifically, how do you, so one of the things we said, sorry, I've lost my train there. One of the things we said is you have to have a super PAs in order to have a super cloud ecosystem, PAs layer. That's essentially what you've introduced here. Is it not a platform for our application development? >>Yeah. I mean, what happens today? I mean, how do you enable a developer, you know, on snowflake, without the developer, you know, reading the, the files out of snowflake, you know, processing, you know, against that data, wherever they are, and then putting the results set, God knows where, right. And that's what happens today. It's the wild west it's completely UN uncovered, right? And that's the reason why lots of enterprises will not allow Python anything anywhere near, you know, their enterprise data. We just know that, uh, we also know it from streamlet, um, or the acquisition, um, large acquisition that we made this year because they said, look, you know, we're, we have a lot of demand, you know, uh, in the Python community, but that's the wild west. That's not the enterprise grade high trust, uh, you know, corporate environment. They are strictly segregated, uh, today. >>Now do some, do these, do these things sometimes dribble up in the enterprise? Yes, they do. And it's actually intolerable the risk that enterprises, you know, take, you know, with things being UN uncovered. I mean the whole snowflake strategy and promises that you're in snowflake, it is a, an absolute enterprise grade environment experience. And it's really hard to do. It takes enormous investment. Uh, but that is what you buy from us. Just having Python is not particularly hard. You know, we can do that in a week. This has taken us years to get it to this level, you know, of, of, you know, governance, security and, and, you know, having all the risks around exfiltration and so on, really understood and dealt with. That's also why these things run in private previews and public previews for so long because we have to squeeze out, you know, everything that may not have been, you know, understood or foreseen, you know, >>So there are trade offs of, of going into this snowflake cloud, you get all this great functionality. Some people might think it's a walled garden. How, how would you respond to that? >>Yeah. And it's true when you have a, you know, a snowflake object, like a snowflake, uh, table only snowflake, you know, runs that table. And, um, you know, that, that is, you know, it's very high function. It's very sort of analogous to what apple did, you know, they have very high functioning, but you do have to accept the fact that it's, that it's not, uh, you know, other, other things in apple cannot, you know, get that these objects. So this is the reason why we introduce an open file format, you know, like, like iceberg, uh, because what iceberg effectively does is it allows any tool, uh, you know, to access that particular object. We do it in such a way that a lot of the functionality of snowflake, you know, will address the iceberg format, which is great because it's, you're gonna get much more function out of our, you know, iceberg implementation than you would get from iceberg on its own. So we do it in a very high value addeds, uh, you know, manner, but other tools can still access the same object in a read to write, uh, manner. So it, it really sort of delivers the original, uh, promise of the data lake, which is just like, Hey, I have all these objects tools come and go. I can use what I want. Um, so you get, you get the best of both worlds for the most part. >>Have you reminds me a little bit of VMware? I mean, VMware's a software mainframe, it's just better than >>Doing >>It on your own. Yep. Um, one of the other hallmarks of a cloud company, and you guys clearly are a cloud company is startups and innovation. Um, now of course you see that in, in the, in the ecosystem, uh, and maybe that's the answer to my question, but you guys are kind of whale hunters, <laugh> your customers are, tend to be bigger. Uh, is the, is the innovation now the extension of that, the ecosystem is that by design. >>Oh, um, you know, we have a enormous, uh, ISV following and, um, we're gonna have a whole separate conference like this, by the way, just for, yeah. >>For developers. I hope you guys will up there too. Yeah. Um, you know, the, the reason that, that the ISV strategy is very important for, you know, for, for, for, for many reasons, but, you know, ISVs are the people that are really going to unlock a lot of the value and a lot of the promise of data, right? Because you, you can never do that on your own. And the problem has been that for ISVs, it is so expensive and so difficult to build a product that can be used because the entire enterprise platform infrastructure needs to be built by somebody, you know, I mean, are you really gonna run infrastructure, database, operations, security, compliance, scalability, economics. How do you do that as a software company where really you only have your, your domain expertise that you want to deliver on a platform. You don't wanna do all these things. >>First of all, you don't know how to do it, how to do it well. Um, so it is much easier, much faster when there is already platform to actually build done in the world of clout that just doesn't, you know, exist. And then beyond that, you know, okay, fine building. It is sort of step one. Now I gotta sell it. I gotta market it. So how do I do that? Well, in the snowflake community, you have already market <laugh>, there's thousands and thousands of customers that are also on self lake. Okay. So their, their ability to consume that service that you just built, you know, they can search it, they can try it, they can test it and decide whether they want to consume it. And then, you know, we can monetize it. So all they have to do is cash the check. So the net effecti of it is we drastically lowered the barriers to entry into the world, you know, of software, you know, two men or two women in a dog, and a handful of files can build something that then can be sold, sort of to, for software developers. >>I wrote a piece 2012 after the first reinvent. And I, you know, and I, and I put a big gorilla on the front page and I said, how do you compete with Amazon gorilla? And then one of my answers was you build data ecosystems and you verticalize, and that's, that's what you're doing >>Here. Yeah. There certain verticals that are farther along than others, uh, obviously, but for example, in financial, uh, which is our largest vertical, I mean, the, the data ecosystem is really developing hardcore now. And that's, that's because they so rely on those relationships between all the big financial institutions and entities, regulatory, you know, clearing houses, investment bankers, uh, retail banks, all this kind of stuff. Um, so they're like, it becomes a no brainer. The network affects kick in so strongly because they're like, well, this is really the only way to do it. I mean, if you and I work in different companies and we do, and we want to create a secure, compliant data network and connection between us, I mean, it would take forever to get our lawyers to agree that yeah, it's okay. <laugh> right now, it's like a matter of minutes to set it up. If we're both on snowflake, >>It's like procurement, do they, do you have an MSA yeah. Check? And it just sail right through versus back and forth and endless negotiations >>Today. Data networking is becoming core ecosystem in the world of computing. You know, >>I mean, you talked about the network effects in rise of the data cloud and correct. Again, you know, you, weren't the first to come up with that notion, but you are applying it here. Um, I wanna switch topics a little bit. I, when I read your press releases, I laugh every time. Cause this says no HQ, Bozeman. And so where, where do you, I think I know where you land on, on hybrid work and remote work, but what are your thoughts on that? You, you see Elon the other day said you can't work for us unless you come to the office. Where, where do you stand? >>Yeah. Well, the, well, the, the first aspect is, uh, we really wanted to, uh, separate from the idea of a headquarters location, because I feel it's very antiquated. You know, we have many different hubs. There's not one place in the world where all the important people are and where we make all the important positions, that whole way of thinking, uh, you know, it is obsolete. I mean, I am where I need to be. And it it's many different places. It's not like I, I sit in this incredible place, you know, and that's, you know, that's where I sit and everybody comes to me. No, we are constantly moving around and we have engineering hubs. You know, we have your regional, uh, you know, headquarters for, for sales. Obviously we have in Malaysia, we have in Europe, you know? And, um, so I wanted to get rid of this headquarters designation. >>And, you know, the, the, the other issue obviously is that, you know, we were obviously in California, but you know, California is, is no longer, uh, the dominant place of where we are resident. I mean, 40% of our engineering people are now in be Washington. You know, we have hundreds of people in Poland where people, you know, we are gonna have very stressed location in Toronto. Um, yeah. Obviously our customers are, are everywhere, right? So this idea that, you know, everything is happening in, in one state is just, um, you know, not, not correct. So we wanted to go to no headquarters. Of course the SCC doesn't let you do that. Um, because they want, they want you to have a street address where the government can send you a mail and then it becomes, the question is, well, what's an acceptable location. Well, it has to be a place where the CEO and the CFO have residency by hooker, by crook. >>That happened to be in Bozeman Montana because Mike and I are both, it was not by design. We just did that because we were, uh, required to, you know, you know, comply with government, uh, requirements, which of course we do, but that's why it, it says what it says now on, on the topic of, you know, where did we work? Um, we are super situational about it. It's not like, Hey, um, you know, everybody in the office or, or everybody is remote, we're not categorical about it. Depends on the function, depends on the location. Um, but everybody is tethered to an office. Okay. In words, everybody has a relationship with an office. There's, there's almost nobody, there are a few exceptions of people that are completely remote. Uh, but you know, if you get hired on with snowflake, you will always have an office affiliation and you can be called into the office by your manager. But for purpose, you know, a meeting, a training, an event, you don't get called in just to hang out. And like, the office is no longer your home away from home. Right. And we're now into hotel, right? So you don't have a fixed place, you know? So >>You talked in your keynote a lot about last question. I let you go customer alignment, obviously a big deal. I have been watching, you know, we go to a lot of events, you'll see a technology company tell a story, you know, about their widget or whatever it was their box. And then you'll see an outcome and you look at it and you shake your head and say, well, that the difference between this and that is the square root of zero, right. When you talk about customer alignment today, we're talking about monetizing data. Um, so that's a whole different conversation. Um, and I, I wonder if you could sort of close on how that's different. Um, I mean, at ServiceNow, you transformed it. You know, I get that, you know, data, the domain was okay, tape, blow it out, but this is a, feels like a whole new vector or wave of growth. >>Yeah. You know, monetizing, uh, data becomes sort of a, you know, a byproduct of having a data cloud you all of a sudden, you know, become aware of the fact that, Hey, Hey, I have data and be that data might actually be quite valuable to parties. And then C you know, it's really easy to then, you know, uh, sell that and, and monetize that. Cause if it was hard, forget it, you know, I don't have time for it. Right. But if it's relatively, if it's compliant, it's relatively effortless, it's pure profit. Um, I just want to reference one attribute, two attributes of what you have, by the way, you know, uh, hedge funds have been into this sort of thing, you know, for a long time, because they procure data from hundreds and hundreds of sources, right. Because they're, they are the original data scientists. >>Um, but the, the bigger thing with data is that a lot of, you know, digital transformation is, is, is finally becoming real. You know, for years it was arm waving and conceptual and abstract, but it's becoming real. I mean, how do we, how do we run a supply chain? You know, how do we run, you know, healthcare, um, all these things are become are, and how do we run cyber security? They're being redefined as data problems and data challenges. And they have data solutions. So that's right. Data strategies are insanely important because, you know, if, if the solution is through data, then you need to have, you know, a data strategy, you know, and in our world, that means you have a data cloud and you have all the enablement that allows you to do that. But, you know, hospitals, you know, are, are saying, you know, data science is gonna have a bigger impact on healthcare than life science, you know, in the coming, whatever, you know, 10, 20 years, how do you enable that? >>Right. I, I have conversations with, with, with hospital executives are like, I got generations of data, you know, clinical diagnostic, demographic, genomic. And then I, I am envisioning these predictive outcomes over here. I wanna be able to predict, you know, once somebody's gonna get what disease and you know, what I have to do about it, um, how do I do that? <laugh> right. The day you go from, uh, you know, I have a lot of data too. I have these outcomes and then do me a miracle in the middle, in the middle of somewhere. Well, that's where we come in. We're gonna organize ourselves and then unpack thats, you know, and then we, we work, we through training models, you know, we can start delivering some of these insights, but the, the promise is extraordinary. We can change whole industries like pharma and, and, and healthcare. Um, you know, 30 effects of data, the economics will change. And you know, the societal outcomes, you know, um, quality of life disease, longevity of life is quite extraordinary. Supply chain management. That's all around us right >>Now. Well, there's a lot of, you know, high growth companies that were kind of COVID companies, valuations shot up. And now they're trying to figure out what to do. You've been pretty clear because of what you just talked about, the opportunities enormous. You're not slowing down, you're amping it up, you know, pun intended. So Frank Luman, thanks so much for coming on the cube. Really appreciate your time. >>My pleasure. >>All right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from the snowflake summit, 2022, you're watching the cube.

>>Hi everybody. This is Dave Volante. Welcome to this cube conversation where we're going to go back in time a little bit and explore the early days of Kubernetes. Talk about how it formed the improbable events, perhaps that led to it. And maybe how customers are taking advantage of containers and container orchestration today, and maybe where the industry is going. Matt Provo is here. He's the founder and CEO of storm forge and Chandler Huntington hoes. Hoisington is the general manager of EKS edge and hybrid AWS guys. Thanks for coming on. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks. So, Jenny, you were the vice president of engineering at miso sphere. Is that, is that correct? >>Well, uh, vice-president engineering basis, fear and then I ran product and engineering for DTQ masons. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you were there in the early days of, of container orchestration and Matt, you, you were working at a S a S a Docker swarm shop, right? Yep. Okay. So I mean, a lot of people were, you know, using your platform was pretty novel at the time. Uh, it was, it was more sophisticated than what was happening with, with Kubernetes. Take us back. What was it like then? Did you guys, I mean, everybody was coming out. I remember there was, I think there was one Docker con and everybody was coming, the Kubernetes was announced, and then you guys were there, doc Docker swarm was, was announced and there were probably three or four other startups doing kind of container orchestration. And what, what were those days like? Yeah. >>Yeah. I wasn't actually atmosphere for those days, but I know them well, I know the story as well. Um, uh, I came right as we started to pivot towards Kubernetes there, but, um, it's a really interesting story. I mean, obviously they did a documentary on it and, uh, you know, people can watch that. It's pretty good. But, um, I think that, from my perspective, it was, it was really interesting how this happened. You had basically, uh, con you had this advent of containers coming out, right? So, so there's new novel technology and Solomon, and these folks started saying, Hey, you know, wait a second, wait if I put a UX around these couple of Linux features that got launched a couple of years ago, what does that look like? Oh, this is pretty cool. Um, so you have containers starting to crop up. And at the same time you had folks like ThoughtWorks and other kind of thought leaders in the space, uh, starting to talk about microservices and saying, Hey, monoliths are bad and you should break up these monoliths into smaller pieces. >>And any Greenfield application should be broken up into individuals, scalable units that a team can can own by themselves, and they can scale independent of each other. And you can write tests against them independently of other components. And you should break up these big, big mandalas. And now we are kind of going back to model this, but that's for another day. Um, so, so you had microservices coming out and then you also had containers coming out, same time. So there was like, oh, we need to put these microservices in something perfect. We'll put them in containers. And so at that point, you don't really, before that moment, you didn't really need container orchestration. You could just run a workload in a container and be done with it, right? You didn't need, you don't need Kubernetes to run Docker. Um, but all of a sudden you had tons and tons of containers and you had to manage these in some way. >>And so that's where container orchestration came, came from. And, and Ben Heineman, the founder of Mesa was actually helping schedule spark at the time at Berkeley. Um, and that was one of the first workloads with spark for Macy's. And then his friends at Twitter said, Hey, come over, can you help us do this with containers at Twitter? He said, okay. So when it helped them do it with containers at Twitter, and that's kinda how that branch of the container wars was started. And, um, you know, it was really, really great technology and it actually is still in production in a lot of shops today. Um, uh, more and more people are moving towards Kubernetes and Mesa sphere saw that trend. And at the end of the day, Mesa sphere was less concerned about, even though they named the company Mesa sphere, they were less concerned about helping customers with Mesa specifically. They really want to help customers with these distributed problems. And so it didn't make sense to, to just do Mesa. So they would took on Kubernetes as well. And I hope >>I don't do that. I remember, uh, my, my co-founder John furrier introduced me to Jerry Chen way back when Jerry is his first, uh, uh, VC investment with Greylock was Docker. And we were talking in these very, obviously very excited about it. And, and his Chandler was just saying, it said Solomon and the team simplified, you know, containers, you know, simple and brilliant. All right. So you guys saw the opportunity where you were Docker swarm shop. Why? Because you needed, you know, more sophisticated capabilities. Yeah. But then you, you switched why the switch, what was happening? What was the mindset back then? We ran >>And into some scale challenges in kind of operationalize or, or productizing our kind of our core machine learning. And, you know, we, we, we saw kind of the, the challenges, luckily a bit ahead of our time. And, um, we happen to have someone on the team that was also kind of moonlighting, uh, as one of the, the original core contributors to Kubernetes. And so as this sort of shift was taking place, um, we, we S we saw the flexibility, uh, of what was becoming Kubernetes. Um, and, uh, I'll never forget. I left on a Friday and came back on a Monday and we had lifted and shifted, uh, to Kubernetes. Uh, the challenge was, um, you know, you, at that time, you, you didn't have what you have today through EKS. And, uh, those kinds of services were, um, just getting that first cluster up and running was, was super, super difficult, even in a small environment. >>And so I remember we, you know, we, we finally got it up and running and it was like, nobody touch it, don't do anything. Uh, but obviously that doesn't, that doesn't scale either. And so that's really, you know, being kind of a data science focused shop at storm forge from the very beginning. And that's where our core IP is. Uh, our, our team looked at that problem. And then we looked at, okay, there are a bunch of parameters and ways that I can tune this application. And, uh, why are the configurations set the way that they are? And, you know, uh, is there room to explore? And that's really where, unfortunately, >>Because Mesa said much greater enterprise capabilities as the Docker swarm, at least they were heading in that direction, but you still saw that Kubernetes was, was attractive because even though it didn't have all the security features and enterprise features, because it was just so simple. I remember Jen Goldberg who was at Google at the time saying, no, we were focused on keeping it simple and we're going from mass adoption, but does that kind of what you said? >>Yeah. And we made a bet, honestly. Uh, we saw that the, uh, you know, the growing community was really starting to, you know, we had a little bit of an inside view because we had, we had someone that was very much in the, in the original part, but you also saw the, the tool chain itself start to, uh, start to come into place right. A little bit. And it's still hardening now, but, um, yeah, we, as any, uh, as any startup does, we, we made a pivot and we made a bet and, uh, this, this one paid off >>Well, it's interesting because, you know, we said at the time, I mean, you had, obviously Amazon invented the modern cloud. You know, Microsoft has the advantage of has got this huge software stays, Hey, just now run it into the cloud. Okay, great. So they had their entry point. Google didn't have an entry point. This is kind of a hail Mary against Amazon. And, and I, I wrote a piece, you know, the improbable, Verizon, who Kubernetes to become the O S you know, the cloud, but, but I asked, did it make sense for Google to do that? And it never made any money off of it, but I would argue they, they were kind of, they'd be irrelevant if they didn't have, they hadn't done that yet, but it didn't really hurt. It certainly didn't hurt Amazon EKS. And you do containers and your customers you've embraced it. Right. I mean, I, I don't know what it was like early days. I remember I've have talked to Amazon people about this. It's like, okay, we saw it and then talk to customers, what are they doing? Right. That's kind of what the mindset is, right? Yeah. >>That's, I, I, you know, I've, I've been at Amazon a couple of years now, and you hear the stories of all we're customer obsessed. We listened to our customers like, okay, okay. We have our company values, too. You get told them. And when you're, uh, when you get first hired in the first day, and you never really think about them again, but Amazon, that really is preached every day. It really is. Um, uh, and that we really do listen to our customers. So when customers start asking for communities, we said, okay, when we built it for them. So, I mean, it's, it's really that simple. Um, and, and we also, it's not as simple as just building them a Kubernetes service. Amazon has a big commitment now to start, you know, getting involved more in the community and working with folks like storm forage and, and really listening to customers and what they want. And they want us working with folks like storm florigen and that, and that's why we're doing things like this. So, well, >>It's interesting, because of course, everybody looks at the ecosystem, says, oh, Amazon's going to kill the ecosystem. And then we saw an article the other day in, um, I think it was CRN, did an article, great job by Amazon PR, but talk about snowflake and Amazon's relationship. And I've said many times snowflake probably drives more than any other ISV out there. And so, yeah, maybe the Redshift guys might not love snowflake, but Amazon in general, you know, they're doing great three things. And I remember Andy Jassy said to me, one time, look, we love the ecosystem. We need the ecosystem. They have to innovate too. If they don't, you know, keep pace, you know, they're going to be in trouble. So that's actually a healthy kind of a dynamic, I mean, as an ecosystem partner, how do you, >>Well, I'll go back to one thing without the work that Google did to open source Kubernetes, a storm forge wouldn't exist, but without the effort that AWS and, and EKS in particular, um, provides and opens up for, for developers to, to innovate and to continue, continue kind of operationalizing the shift to Kubernetes, um, you know, we wouldn't have nearly the opportunity that we do to actually listen to them as well, listen to the users and be able to say, w w w what do you want, right. Our entire reason for existence comes from asking users, like, how painful is this process? Uh, like how much confidence do you have in the, you know, out of the box, defaults that ship with your, you know, with your database or whatever it is. And, uh, and, and how much do you love, uh, manually tuning your application? >>And, and, uh, obviously nobody's said, I love that. And so I think as that ecosystem comes together and continues expanding, um, it's just, it opens up a huge opportunity, uh, not only for existing, you know, EKS and, uh, AWS users to continue innovating, but for companies like storm forge, to be able to provide that opportunity for them as well. And, and that's pretty powerful. So I think without a lot of the moves they've made, um, you know, th the door wouldn't be nearly as open for companies like, who are, you know, growing quickly, but are smaller to be able to, you know, to exist. >>Well, and I was saying earlier that, that you've, you're in, I wrote about this, you're going to get better capabilities. You're clearly seeing that cluster management we've talked about better, better automation, security, the whole shift left movement. Um, so obviously there's a lot of momentum right now for Kubernetes. When you think about bare metal servers and storage, and then you had VM virtualization, VMware really, and then containers, and then Kubernetes as another abstraction, I would expect we're not at the end of the road here. Uh, what's next? Is there another abstraction layer that you would think is coming? Yeah, >>I mean, w for awhile, it looked like, and I remember even with our like board members and some of our investors said, well, you know, well, what about serverless? And, you know, what's the next Kubernetes and nothing, we, as much as I love Kubernetes, um, which I do, and we do, um, nothing about what we particularly do. We are purpose built for Kubernetes, but from a core kind of machine learning and problem solving standpoint, um, we could apply this elsewhere, uh, if we went that direction and so time will tell what will be next, then there will be something, uh, you know, that will end up, you know, expanding beyond Kubernetes at some point. Um, but, you know, I think, um, without knowing what that is, you know, our job is to, to, to serve our, you know, to serve our customers and serve our users in the way that they are asking for that. >>Well, serverless obviously is exploding when you look again, and we tucked the ETR survey data, when you look at, at the services within Amazon and other cloud providers, you know, the functions off, off the charts. Uh, so that's kind of an interesting and notable now, of course, you've got Chandler, you've got edge in your title. You've got hybrid in, in your title. So, you know, this notion of the cloud expanding, it's not just a set of remote services, just only in the public cloud. Now it's, it's coming to on premises. You actually got Andy, Jesse, my head space. He said, one time we just look at it. The data centers is another edge location. Right. Okay. That's a way to look at it and then you've got edge. Um, so that cloud is expanding, isn't it? The definition of cloud is, is, is evolving. >>Yeah, that's right. I mean, customers one-on-one run workloads in lots of places. Um, and that's why we have things like, you know, local zones and wavelengths and outposts and EKS anywhere, um, EKS, distro, and obviously probably lots more things to come. And there's, I always think of like, Amazon's Kubernetes strategy on a manageability scale. We're on one far end of the spectrum, you have EKS distro, which is just a collection of the core Kubernetes packages. And you could, you could take those and stand them up yourself in a broom closet, in a, in a retail shop. And then on the other far in the spectrum, you have EKS far gate where you can just give us your container and we'll handle everything for you. Um, and then we kind of tried to solve everything in between for your data center and for the cloud. And so you can, you can really ask Amazon, I want you to manage my control plane. I want you to manage this much of my worker nodes, et cetera. And oh, I actually want help on prem. And so we're just trying to listen to customers and solve their problems where they're asking us to solve them. Cut, >>Go ahead. No, I would just add that in a more vertically focused, uh, kind of orientation for us. Like we, we believe that op you know, optimization capabilities should transcend the location itself. And, and, and so whether that's part public part, private cloud, you know, that's what I love part of what I love about EKS anywhere. Uh, it, you know, you shouldn't, you should still be able to achieve optimal results that connect to your business objectives, uh, wherever those workloads, uh, are, are living >>Well, don't wince. So John and I coined this term called Supercloud and people laugh about it, but it's different. It's, it's, you know, people talk about multi-cloud, but that was just really kind of vendor diversity. Right? I got to running here, I'm running their money anywhere. Uh, but, but individually, and so Supercloud is this concept of this abstraction layer that floats wherever you are, whether it's on prem, across clouds, and you're taking advantage of those native primitives, um, and then hiding that underlying complexity. And that's what, w re-invent the ecosystem was so excited and they didn't call it super cloud. We, we, we called it that, but they're clearly thinking differently about the value that they can add on top of Goldman Sachs. Right. That to me is an example of a Supercloud they're taking their on-prem data and their, their, their software tooling connecting it to AWS. They're running it on AWS, but they're, they're abstracting that complexity. And I think you're going to see a lot, a lot more of that. >>Yeah. So Kubernetes itself, in many cases is being abstracted away. Yeah. There's a disability of a disappearing act for Kubernetes. And I don't mean that in a, you know, in an, a, from an adoption standpoint, but, uh, you know, Kubernetes itself is increasingly being abstracted away, which I think is, is actually super interesting. Yeah. >>Um, communities doesn't really do anything for a company. Like we run Kubernetes, like, how does that help your bottom line? That at the end of the day, like companies don't care that they're running Kubernetes, they're trying to solve a problem, which is the, I need to be able to deploy my applications. I need to be able to scale them easily. I need to be able to update them easily. And those are the things they're trying to solve. So if you can give them some other way to do that, I'm sure you know, that that's what they want. It's not like, uh, you know, uh, a big bank is making more money because they're running Kubernetes. That's not, that's not the current, >>It gets subsumed. It's just become invisible. Right. Exactly. You guys back to the office yet. What's, uh, what's the situation, >>You know, I, I work for my house and I, you know, we go into the office a couple of times a week, so it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy time. It's a crazy time to be managing and hiring. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a challenge, but there's a lot of benefits of working home. I got two young kids, so I get to see them, uh, grow up a little bit more working, working out of my house. So it's >>Nice also. >>So we're in, even as a smaller startup, we're in 26, 27 states, uh, Canada, Germany, we've got a little bit of presence in Japan, so we're very much distributed. Um, we, uh, have not gone back and I'm not sure we will >>Permanently remote potentially. >>Yeah. I mean, w we made a, uh, pretty like for us, the timing of our series B funding, which was where we started hiring a lot, uh, was just before COVID started really picking up. So we, you know, thankfully made a, a pretty good strategic decision to say, we're going to go where the talent is. And yeah, it was harder to find for sure, especially in w we're competing, it's incredibly competitive. Uh, but yeah, we've, it was a good decision for us. Um, we are very about, you know, getting the teams together in person, you know, as often as possible and in the safest way possible, obviously. Um, but you know, it's been a, it's been a pretty interesting, uh, journey for us and something that I'm, I'm not sure I would, I would change to be honest with you. Yeah. >>Well, Frank Slootman, snowflakes HQ to Montana, and then can folks like Michael Dell saying, Hey, same thing as you, wherever they want to work, bring yourself and wherever you are as cool. And do you think that the hybrid mode for your team is kind of the, the, the operating mode for the, for the foreseeable future is a couple of, >>No, I think, I think there's a lot of benefits in both working from the office. I don't think you can deny like the face-to-face interactions. It feels good just doing this interview face to face. Right. And I can see your mouth move. So it's like, there's a lot of benefits to that, um, over a chime call or a zoom call or whatever, you know, that, that also has advantages, right. I mean, you can be more focused at home. And I think some version of hybrid is probably in the industry's future. I don't know what Amazon's exact plans are. That's above my pay grade, but, um, I know that like in general, the industry is definitely moving to some kind of hybrid model. And like Matt said, getting people I'm a big fan at Mesa sphere, we ran a very diverse, like remote workforce. We had a big office in Germany, but we'd get everybody together a couple of times a year for engineering week or, or something like this. And you'd get a hundred people, you know, just dedicated to spending time together at a hotel and, you know, Vegas or Hamburg or wherever. And it's a really good time. And I think that's a good model. >>Yeah. And I think just more ETR data, the current thinking now is that, uh, the hybrid is the number one sort of model, uh, 36% that the CIO is believe 36% of the workforce are going to be hybrid permanently is kind of their, their call a couple of days in a couple of days out. Um, and the, the percentage that is remote is significantly higher. It probably, you know, high twenties, whereas historically it's probably 15%. Yeah. So permanent changes. And that, that changes the infrastructure. You need to support it, the security models and everything, you know, how you communicate. So >>When COVID, you know, really started hitting and in 2020, um, the big banks for example, had to, I mean, you would want to talk about innovation and ability to, to shift quickly. Two of the bigger banks that have in, uh, in fact, adopted Kubernetes, uh, were able to shift pretty quickly, you know, systems and things that were, you know, historically, you know, it was in the office all the time. And some of that's obviously shifted back to a certain degree, but that ability, it was pretty remarkable actually to see that, uh, take place for some of the larger banks and others that are operating in super regulated environments. I mean, we saw that in government agencies and stuff as well. >>Well, without the cloud, no, this never would've happened. Yeah. >>And I think it's funny. I remember some of the more old school manager thing people are, aren't gonna work less when they're working from home, they're gonna be distracted. I think you're seeing the opposite where people are too much, they get burned out because you're just running your computer all day. And so I think that we're learning, I think everyone, the whole industry is learning. Like, what does it mean to work from home really? And, uh, it's, it's a fascinating thing is as a case study, we're all a part of right now. >>I was talking to my wife last night about this, and she's very thoughtful. And she w when she was in the workforce, she was at a PR firm and a guy came in a guest speaker and it might even be in the CEO of the company asking, you know, what, on average, what time who stays at the office until, you know, who leaves by five o'clock, you know, a few hands up, or who stays until like eight o'clock, you know, and enhancement. And then, so he, and he asked those people, like, why, why can't you get your work done in a, in an eight hour Workday? I go home. Why don't you go in? And I sit there. Well, that's interesting, you know, cause he's always looking at me like, why can't you do, you know, get it done? And I'm saying the world has changed. Yeah. It really has where people are just on all the time. I'm not sure it's sustainable, quite frankly. I mean, I think that we have to, you know, as organizations think about, and I see companies doing it, you guys probably do as well, you know, take a four day, you know, a week weekend, um, just for your head. Um, but it's, there's no playbook. >>Yeah. Like I said, we're a part of a case study. It's also hard because people are distributed now. So you have your meetings on the east coast, you can wake up at seven four, and then you have meetings on the west coast. You stay until seven o'clock therefore, so your day just stretches out. So you've got to manage this. And I think we're, I think we'll figure it out. I mean, we're good at figuring this stuff. >>There's a rise in asynchronous communication. So with things like slack and other tools, as, as helpful as they are in many cases, it's a, it, isn't always on mentality. And like, people look for that little green dot and you know, if you're on the you're online. So my kids, uh, you know, we have a term now for me, cause my office at home is upstairs and I'll come down. And if it's, if it's during the day, they'll say, oh dad, you're going for a walk and talk, you know, which is like, it was my way of getting away from the desk, getting away from zoom. And like, you know, even in Boston, uh, you know, getting outside, trying to at least, you know, get a little exercise or walk and get, you know, get my head away from the computer screen. Um, but even then it's often like, oh, I'll get a slack notification on my phone or someone will call me even if it's not a scheduled walk and talk. Um, uh, and so it is an interesting, >>A lot of ways to get in touch or productivity is presumably going to go through the roof. But now, all right, guys, I'll let you go. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. Really appreciate it. And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Alante and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to AWS Startup Showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the Hero panel, the AWS Heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in Open Source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of Open Source innovation. We've got some great guests here. Liz Rice, Chief Open Source Officer, Isovalent. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Brian LeRoux, who is the Co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windisch who's an Architect for Developer Experience. AWS Hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO Gaggle. Doing some great stuff in ed tech. Great collection of experts and experienced folks doing some fun stuff, welcome to this conversation this CUBE panel. >> Hi. >> Thanks for having us. >> Hello. >> Let's go down the line. >> I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why Open Source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on? And what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz we'll start with you. >> Okay, so I am very involved in the world of Cloud Native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of Cloud Native projects. More specifically, Isovalent. I focus on Cilium, which is it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called OpenUK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. >> Awesome, Brian what project are you working on? >> Working project these days called Architect. It's a Open Source project built on top of AWSM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SM experience and just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times. And the Open Source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. And so I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open-source thing for quite a while, and yeah, I love it. It's a great thing. It's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So that's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here so thanks for having me. >> Awesome, yeah, and totally great. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? >> Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of Open Source STKS and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with OpenTelemetry, as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various STKs and developer tools is where like Docker and OpenStack and the STKs that I work on now, all very much focusing on developer as the user. >> Yeah, you're always on the wave, Erica great stuff. Casey, what's going on? Do you got some great ed techs happening? What's happening with you? >> Yeah, sure. The primary Open Source project that I'm contributing to right now is ACT. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out, and my motivation there was I'm just impatient. And that whole commit, push, wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Actions workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate, to get up action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. Lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars, and it'd be it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is like a big deal for me, letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So, yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. >> Great, we'll make sure the SiliconANGLE riders catch that quote there. Great call out. Let's start, Brian, you made me realize when you mentioned Apache and then you've been watching all the stuff going on, it brings up the question of the evolution of Open Source, and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. You're seeing CloudScale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you starting to see Netflix donates something, you got Lyft donate some stuff, becomes a project company forms around it. There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see a new kickup trajectory with Open Source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. >> I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's why it's front of mind for me right now, 'cause I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it's spun out of Spotify. It's fully Open Source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer. You cannot sell the Open Source code, but you can sell other things that create value around Open Source projects. So that's really exciting to see. >> Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the Pirate software. Open Source wasn't around. So you had to deal under the table. Now it's free. But I mean the old way was you had to convince the enterprise, like you've got a hard knit, it builds the community and the community manage the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster. And the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new- >> It's a Cambrian explosion, and it's great. It's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, "Whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out?" And there's no right answer and there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of well-known trot and happy path, that audience we're a lot better with a more diverse community, with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. A challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now, the sustainability, it's a bit of a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and a tough one for a lot of folks. >> Erica, would you chime in on that for a second. I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code, and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark and verify? I mean, these are questions like, well, how do you navigate? >> Yeah, I think this has been something happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010, for instance, Rackspace Open Sourcing, OpenStack and ANSU Labs and so forth, and then trying, having all these companies forming in creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloudccaling back in late 2010, and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the ANSUL Labs people went. But then, the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular, as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack, and really proving out a lot of... not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into Open Source projects and Open Source Foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which proceeded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4j really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsized impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but a vulnerability in it brings every everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. >> I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing a venture capital model in saying, "Hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for say solving some observability problems so I think let's put some cash." Again then we'd never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of a real smart investment thesis going into Open Source projects. I mean, Promethease, Crafter, these are projects that turned off companies. This is turning up companies. >> A decade ago, there was no money in Dev tools that I think that's been fully debunked now. They used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary, the companies like Cash Court, Datadog, the list goes on and on. I think the challenge for the Open Source (indistinct) comes back to foundations and working (indistinct) these developers make this code safe and secure. >> Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical. I won't say white spaces, but the opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's precommercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? >> Yeah, I want to go back to the Log4j topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's sort of quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics, to determine how valuable, how important a piece of Open Source is to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it and how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an Open Source software, sure, I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has. But I got to go through and do all that work myself and come up with. It would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk, hey, that this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it makes sense. The Open Source Security Foundation, just getting off the ground, they're doing some work in this space, and I'm really excited to see where they go with that looking at ways to stop score critically. >> Well, this brings up a good point while we've got everyone here, let's take a plug and plug a project you think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some free visibility here. Anyone want to highlight projects they think should be focused more on, or that needs a little bit of love? >> I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software supply chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people doing really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great xkcd cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then, this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something and if you called it out. >> Yeah, you just opened where the next lightening and a bottle comes from. And this is I think the beauty of Open Source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going and you get some momentum, and if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of Open Source. The question I want to ask that the panel here is when you go into an enterprise, and now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me, how do I manage the Open Source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility and all those things? >> You called it, they got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved and donating to a sustainable Open Source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, it could be committing resources into the darks or in the tests, or even tweeting about an Open Source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the Open Source Foundations that are out there. >> Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state-of-the-art kind of equation is has it changed a little bit? Or is it the game still the same? >> Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end-user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on Cloud Native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies, putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says contributing resources quite often, there's enough money, but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water, >> Exactly. >> that it's hard. >> And if enterprises can find peoples to spend time on Open Source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security, we can reduce the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. >> I think the business models there, I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which CubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones. And I remember seeing Apple having a booth, but nobody was manning. It was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything, but they were recruiting. And I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent, but also committing that talent back into the communities as a model, as a business model, like, okay, hire some great people, but listen, don't screw up the Open Source piece of it 'cause that's a critical. >> Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the larger organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews, which is pretty great. >> Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects, which they feel that they depend greatly, they'll invest in OpenStack, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects. And then these other projects get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit for a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this. And it sounds maybe from lists, there are some projects that I don't know about, but I also know that there's some startups like Snyk and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem, but I think we need more focus on some of these edges. And I think companies need to do better, both in providing, having some sort of solution for observability of the dependencies, as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on a certain criteria that they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct, but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct, then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed, your employees are not allowed to contribute to, for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume, and then not use them, and have observability around these things. >> That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant. And that is as Open Source software, software, people develop software, you see under the hood kind of software, SREs developing very quickly in the CloudScale, but also you've got your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain, software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you've got the development of all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code so DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How has the future of Open Source going to make the developers just want to code quickly? And the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient, any views on that? >> At Gaggle, we're using AWS' CDK, exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers instead of writing Yammel or Jason, or even HCL for their infrastructure code, now they're writing code in the language that they're used to Python or JavaScript, and what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that Infrastructure as code at Gaggle here, but it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some Devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app in a database and do auto-scaling behind and all stuff, we can present that to a developer as a library, and they can just consume it as it is. Maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it, they can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs changed to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to, and then also go deeper as they need. >> That's awesome. Does that mean they're not full stack developers anymore that they're half stack developers they're taking care of for them? >> I don't know either. >> We'll in. >> No, only kidding. Anyway, any other reactions to this whole? I just want to code, make it easy for me, and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. >> So I think that for me, Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly, but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me, was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development, but it was for me, the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default, and then giving you these tuna balls that you can control it further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called DockerSlim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller, but it also constraints the security footprint, and we'll remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for app armor and the Red Hat one. SELinux. >> SELinux. >> Yeah, and this is something that I think a lot of developers, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for... when I say users, I mean, developers, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed, or simply choosing platforms like serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tuneable, but very strong by default. And I think that's a good place for us to be is where we just enforced these things and make you do things in a secure way. >> Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around security profiling and making it easier to shrink wrap your applications that there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud native environment. But I think for the smaller developer let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward. Really does. >> Really an interesting time, 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. If GitHub's to be believed, we think there is now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers and a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack moved towards the front end. We saw that at re:Invent when Amazon was really pushing Amplify 'cause they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the obstructions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden, reality intervenes, and it might not be appropriate for everything. And so figuring out what those edges are, is still the challenge, I think. >> All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE here panel. AWS Heroes, thanks everyone for coming. I really appreciate it, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, that's a wrap here back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm Yeah, this is Dave valentin. I'd like to welcome you back to the cubes coverage of couch base connect online with the theme of this event is modernized now and one of the big announcements is Capella which of course as you all undoubtedly know is the brightest star in the constellation Auriga, which is latin for charioteer, yep, you can find that in the constellation of that constellation of the night sky in late february, early March in the northern hemisphere. So with that little tidbit, I'd like to welcome in scott Anderson to the cube, who is the senior vice president of product management and business operations. That couch base scott welcome. Good to see you. >>Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >>That's our pleasure. So you've launched couch based cappella if I understand correctly, it's built on couch based server seven which he launched just a few months ago in the middle of the summer. Can you give us an overview of Capella? >>Yeah, absolutely. So couch based Capellas are fully managed databases. Service for enterprise applications. One of the goals of launching Capella and our databases is service offering that we just announced today is about increasing the accessibility of couch base so it's about making it easy for a developer or an enterprise to get up and running in just a few clicks in a couple of minutes Um and about making it more affordable and accessible through the development phase through the test phase, the production phase. So really it's about ease of use having the right offerings aligned to the phase of development that customers in and eventually into the production of their enterprise application leveraging capella and couch based Server seven. >>So let me ask you, I I went pretty deep with ravi on the, on the technical side and I want to understand what makes Capella different from some of the competitive offerings. Is it the sort of the fundamentals that I learned from Ravi about how you guys have have have really done an awesome focus on on on sequel but been able to maintain acid compliance deal with distributed architectural challenges and then bringing that over to database as a service. Is that the fundamental, what are some of the other differentiators? >>Yeah, that that is the fundamental, we have an amazing platform that Roddy and our core engineering team built and we've talked about that and I think Robbie mentioned that the ease of sequel and applying that to a documented oriented database, then combining some of those capabilities with the ease of use, the ability that you can get up and running, signing up for our free trial couple minutes later you've got a database endpoint that is fully managed by couch base. And so we're doing the monitoring, we're doing alerting, we have calls to action based off what events are occurring within the database environment, ensuring it's always available as well as doing kind of the mundane tasks of backup and recovery, uh scaling the environment, upgrades and so forth. So it's really about ease of use, making it um leveraging are incredibly robust, broad platform um and then making that in different consumable model for our customers and developers and getting started really easily. The other thing that we have done is really leverage the best practices over the last 10 or 11 years of some of the largest enterprises in the world using couch based for the mission critical applications. So we've codified those best practices and that's how we keep that service, high performance, always on highly available. And that's one of the core value propositions that were able to bring with Capella. It's really about management capability, global visibility of your clusters coupled with what we believe is the best no sequel database in the marketplace today. >>What about what about cost, total cost of ownership as you scale a lot of times when you scale out, you get dis economies of scale, it's kind of like, you know, you get that negative curve, uh what are you seeing? >>Yeah, we've done a third party benchmark studies which have proven out how we are able to literally scale the environment uh and continue on that curve as you add notes, you're getting that incremental performance that you would expect. The other thing that we do that's really unique within couch bases are multidimensional scaling and this allows you to place our services, things like data index, query, full text search indexes and analytics, you can co locate those on single nodes within a cluster or you can have dedicated notes for each one of those services. The reason that is important is you get work line isolation for those specific services within our cluster. The other thing that you can do is you can match the compute infrastructure to the needs of each one of those services. So some services like query are much more core, compute intensive and that allows you to have a specific instance type that is optimized for that, reducing your costs, indexes where you want very fast performance, you may want to have a higher amount of memory relative to the number of course. So that ability to mix and match the infrastructure with an existing cluster allows us to lower overall costs. That coupled with their blazing fast performance with our in memory architecture allows people to get incredible performance at scale. Um, what we've proven out in the study that I mentioned earlier is we have that linear scalability and you're able to do more for less at the end of the day, you're getting more operations per second per dollar if you want to use that as a metric. >>Got it. Thank you for that. What do customers need to think about when they want to get started with Capela? How difficult is it for people to jump in? >>It is incredibly simple. It's as simple as going to couch base dot com clicking on start your free trial, You're going to that free trial, you provide a minimal set of information for us and it's literally a few clicks and you're going to have a database endpoint within three minutes and that's really been a foundation of, of what we've been focused on over the last 6-9 months is removing any friction we can in the process because our goal is to give a tremendous user experience and get people up and running as quickly as possible. So we're really, really proud of that. And then from a paid offering perspective, we have a number of offerings which are really aligned to the needs of each customer, some individuals who want a larger cluster and they want to be able to pay for that. We've optimized service levels around that in terms of level support and the features that we think are appropriate for a dev cycle, a test cycle and then into production and lastly we will be announcing a number of promotional starter pack bundles, really trying to couple the overall service that we have with Capella with some of our expertise, so helping new users get up and running in terms of things like index definitions, what's the best way to do document design and schema within within couch base. Our end goal is to match these services and bundles with the life cycle of application development. So in my development phase what's the offering for me as I move for production readiness, what services capabilities I need and then production and the ongoing if I expand my use. So we've been really focused on, how do we get people up up and running as quickly as possible and how do we get them to production as quickly as possible at the lowest total cost? >>That's nice. That's a nice accelerant for customers. Um, so as you heard upfront, I did a little research about the name Capella. How did you choose it and why? >>Well, one thing I learned early in my career is naming is not a strong suit of mine. I leave that to John or our chief marketing officer in the overall team. Um, we all have opinions, but I trust John and we went through, I think it was over 60 names, seven rounds of debate to come up with capella, but we want to name of strength. We like the alliteration couch, basic capella together. Um, one of the little facts may have tipped it over is I believe in latin, it means little goats. So we kind of played from the barriers. Always think to jerry rice goat, greatest of all time. So that was a nice play on that also. Um, but I leave it to them and really happy with the overall name, love the liberation, Love some of the hidden meanings within that. Um, and we're really, really excited about getting going. So you wouldn't want me to pick the name. Um, I get a vote. Um, but I would say my overall influence is a little bit lower than where john's is and matt cain, who I know you spoke with previously. >>I love it, jerry rice definitely is a little go because I'm from New England. So of course tom we think tom brady is the big goat. I >>know we've, I grew up in that joe Montana era, so maybe you can take that off line after this interview. We can have our own debate, but I guess super bowl trophies or the ultimate measure at the end of the day. >>Now I've got a little stat for you. So, so Capella is also one of the 88 modern constellations as adopted by the International Astronomical Union. I. E. Not one of the ancient constellations. Pretty clever. Right. >>Exactly. >>Scott is great to have you on the cube. Thanks so much. Really, >>thank you so much. >>All right. And thank you for watching. Thank you for watching. Our pleasure. Thank you much of the cubes coverage of couch based connect 2021. Keep it right there for more great content. Mm mhm

(upbeat music) >> This is Dave Vellante, and I'd like to welcome you back to The Cube's coverage of Couchbase ConnectONLINE, where the theme of this event is Modernize Now. And one of the big announcements is Capella, which of course, as you all undoubtedly know, is the brightest star in the constellation Auriga, which is Latin for Charioteer. Yup, you can find that in the constellation, that constellation in the night sky in late Feb, early March, in the Northern hemisphere. So with that little tidbit, I'd like to welcome in Scott Anderson to The Cube, who's the Senior Vice President of Product Management and Business Operations at Couchbase. Scott, welcome. Good to see you. >> Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. So, you've launched Couchbase Capella. If I understand correctly, it's built on Couchbase server 7, which you launched just a few months ago in the middle of the Summer. Can you give us an overview of Capella? >> Yeah, absolutely. So Couchbase Capella, is our fully managed databases service for enterprise applications. One of the goals of launching Capella and our database as a service offering that we just announced today is, about increasing the accessibility of Couchbase. So, it's about making it easy for a Developer or an Enterprise to get up and running in just a few clicks and a couple of minutes. And about making it more affordable and accessible through the development phase, through the test phase, the production phase. So really it's about ease of use, having the right offerings aligned to the phase of development that a customer's in, and eventually into the production of their enterprise application, leveraging Capella and Couchbase Server 7. >> So let me ask you, I went pretty deep with Ravi on the, the technical side, and I want to understand, what makes Capella different from some of the competitive offerings? Is it the, sort of the fundamentals that I learned from Ravi about how you guysbhave really done a awesome focus on SQL. But been able to maintain acid compliance, deal with distributed architectural challenges, and then bringing that over to database as a service? Is that the fundamental? What are some of the other differentiators? >> Yeah, that, that is the fundamental. We have an amazing platform that Ravi and our core engineering team have built. And we've talked about that, and I think Ravi mentioned that, the ease of SQL and applying that to a documented oriented database. and combining some of those capabilities with the ease of use. The ability that you can get up and running, signing up for our free trial. Couple of minutes later, you've got a database endpoint that is fully managed by Couchbase. And so we're doing the monitoring. We're doing alerting. We have calls to action based off what events are occurring within the database environment, ensuring it's always available, as well as doing kind of some of the mundane tasks of backup and recovery, scaling the environment upgrades and so forth. So it's really about ease of use making it, leveraging our incredibly robust broad platform, and then making that in different consumable model for our customers and developers and getting started really easily. The other thing that we've done, is really leveraged the best practices over the last 10 or 11 years, if some of the largest enterprises in the world using Couchbase for the mission critical applications. So we've codified those best practices. And that's how we keep that service high performant, always on, highly available. And that's one of the core value propositions that we're able to bring with Capella. It's really that management capability, global visibility of your clusters, coupled with what we believe is the best, no SQL database in the marketplace today. >> What about, what about costs total cost of ownership as you scale, a lot of times when you scale out and you get diseconomies of scale, it's kind of like, you know, you get that negative curve. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, we've done third party benchmark studies, which have proven out how we were able to linearly scale the environment and continue on that curve, as you add nodes, you're getting that incremental performance that you would expect. The other thing that we do that's really unique within in Couchbase is, our multi-dimensional scaling. And this allows you to place our services, things like data index query, full-text search, indexes and analytics. You can co-locate those on single nodes within the cluster, or you can have dedicated nodes for each one of those services. The reason that is important is, you get work-life isolation for those specific services within our cluster. The other thing that you can do is, you can match the compute infrastructure to the needs of each one of those services. So some services like query are much more core compute intensive, and that allows you to have a specific instance type that is optimized for that, reducing your cost. Indexes, where do you want very fast performance? You may want to have a higher amount of memory relative to the number, of course. So that ability to mix and match the infrastructure within the existing cluster, allows us to lower overall costs. That coupled with our blazing fast performance with our in-memory architecture, allows people to get incredible performance at scale. What we've proven out in the study that I mentioned earlier is we have that linear scalability, and you're able to do more for less, at the end of the day. You're getting more operations per second, per dollar, if you want to use that as a metric data. >> Thank you for that. What do customers need to think about when they want to get started with Capella? How difficult is it for people to jump in? >> It is incredibly simple. It's as simple as going to couchbase.com Clicking on start your free trial. You go into that free trial. You provide a minimal set of information for us, and it's literally a few clicks and you're going to have a database endpoint within three minutes. And that's really been a foundation of, of what we've been focused on over the last six to nine months is removing any friction we can in the process. Cause our goal is to give a firm a tremendous user experience and get people up and running as quickly as possible. So we're really, really proud of that. And then from a paid offering perspective, we have a number of offerings which are really aligned to the needs of each customer. Some individuals who want a larger cluster and they want to be able to pay for that, we've optimized service levels around that, in terms of level of support and the features that we think are appropriate for a dev cycle, a test cycle, and then inner production. And lastly, we'll be announcing a number of promotional starter pack bundles. Really trying to couple the overall service that we have with Capella, with some of our expertise. So helping new users get up and running in terms of things like index definitions, what's the best way to do document design and schema within Couchbase. Our end goal, is to match these services and bundles with the life cycle of application development. So in my development phase, what's the offering for me, as I move for production readiness, what services capabilities I need and then production and the ongoing, if I expand my use. So we've been really focused on how do we get people up and running as quickly as possible and how do we get them to production as quickly as possible at the lowest total cost. >> That's nice. That's a nice accelerant for, for customers. So as you heard upfront, I did a little research about the name, Capella. How did you choose it and why? >> Well, one thing I learned early in my career is naming is not a strong suit of mine. I leave that to John our Chief Marketing Officer in the overall team. We all have opinions, but I trust John. And we went through, I think it was over 60 names, seven rounds of debate to come up with Capella. But we wanted a name of strength. We liked the alliteration, Couchbase and Capella together. One of the little facts may have tipped it over is, I believe in Latin, it means little goats. So we kind of played, I'm from the bay area. So I was thinking to Jerry Rice, goat, greatest of all times. So that was nice play on that also. But I leave it to them and really happy with the overall name, love the, literation, love some of the hidden meanings within that. And we're really, really excited about getting it going. So you wouldn't want me to pick the name. I get a vote, but I would say my overall influence is a little bit lower than where John's is and, and Matt Cain, who I know you spoke with previously. >> I love it. Jerry Rice definitely is the little goat. I'm from New England. So of course, we think Tom Brady is the big goat. >> I know, I grew up in that Joe Montana era. So maybe you can take that offline after this interview, we're going to have around debate, but I guess a Superbowl trophies are the ultimate measure at the end of the day. >> Oh wait, I got a little stat for you. So, so Capella is also one of the 88 modern constellations as adopted by the international astronomical union. I.e not one of the ancient constellations. Pretty clever, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Scott, it's great to have you on the cube. Thanks so much, really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it All right. Thank you for watching. Our pleasure. Thank you for watching The Cubes coverage of Couchbase Connect 2021. Keep it right there for more great content. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> This is Dave Vellante, and I'd like to welcome you back to The Cube's coverage of Couchbase ConnectONLINE, where the theme of this event is Modernize Now. And one of the big announcements is Capella, which of course, as you all undoubtedly know, is the brightest star in the constellation Auriga, which is Latin for Charioteer. Yup, you can find that in the constellation, that constellation in the night sky in late Feb, early March, in the Northern hemisphere. So with that little tidbit, I'd like to welcome in Scott Anderson to The Cube, who's the Senior Vice President of Product Management and Business Operations at Couchbase. Scott, welcome. Good to see you. >> Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. So, you've launched Couchbase Capella. If I understand correctly, it's built on Couchbase server 7, which you launched just a few months ago in the middle of the Summer. Can you give us an overview of Capella? >> Yeah, absolutely. So Couchbase Capella, is our fully managed databases service for enterprise applications. One of the goals of launching Capella and our database as a service offering that we just announced today is, about increasing the accessibility of Couchbase. So, it's about making it easy for a Developer or an Enterprise to get up and running in just a few clicks and a couple of minutes. And about making it more affordable and accessible through the development phase, through the test phase, the production phase. So really it's about ease of use, having the right offerings aligned to the phase of development that a customer's in, and eventually into the production of their enterprise application, leveraging Capella and Couchbase Server 7. >> So let me ask you, I went pretty deep with Ravi on the, the technical side, and I want to understand, what makes Capella different from some of the competitive offerings? Is it the, sort of the fundamentals that I learned from Ravi about how you guysbhave really done a awesome focus on SQL. But been able to maintain acid compliance, deal with distributed architectural challenges, and then bringing that over to database as a service? Is that the fundamental? What are some of the other differentiators? >> Yeah, that, that is the fundamental. We have an amazing platform that Ravi and our core engineering team have built. And we've talked about that, and I think Ravi mentioned that, the ease of SQL and applying that to a documented oriented database. and combining some of those capabilities with the ease of use. The ability that you can get up and running, signing up for our free trial. Couple of minutes later, you've got a database endpoint that is fully managed by Couchbase. And so we're doing the monitoring. We're doing alerting. We have calls to action based off what events are occurring within the database environment, ensuring it's always available, as well as doing kind of some of the mundane tasks of backup and recovery, scaling the environment upgrades and so forth. So it's really about ease of use making it, leveraging our incredibly robust broad platform, and then making that in different consumable model for our customers and developers and getting started really easily. The other thing that we've done, is really leveraged the best practices over the last 10 or 11 years, if some of the largest enterprises in the world using Couchbase for the mission critical applications. So we've codified those best practices. And that's how we keep that service high performant, always on, highly available. And that's one of the core value propositions that we're able to bring with Capella. It's really that management capability, global visibility of your clusters, coupled with what we believe is the best, no SQL database in the marketplace today. >> What about, what about costs total cost of ownership as you scale, a lot of times when you scale out and you get diseconomies of scale, it's kind of like, you know, you get that negative curve. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, we've done third party benchmark studies, which have proven out how we were able to linearly scale the environment and continue on that curve, as you add nodes, you're getting that incremental performance that you would expect. The other thing that we do that's really unique within in Couchbase is, our multi-dimensional scaling. And this allows you to place our services, things like data index query, full-text search, indexes and analytics. You can co-locate those on single nodes within the cluster, or you can have dedicated nodes for each one of those services. The reason that is important is, you get work-life isolation for those specific services within our cluster. The other thing that you can do is, you can match the compute infrastructure to the needs of each one of those services. So some services like query are much more core compute intensive, and that allows you to have a specific instance type that is optimized for that, reducing your cost. Indexes, where do you want very fast performance? You may want to have a higher amount of memory relative to the number, of course. So that ability to mix and match the infrastructure within the existing cluster, allows us to lower overall costs. That coupled with our blazing fast performance with our in-memory architecture, allows people to get incredible performance at scale. What we've proven out in the study that I mentioned earlier is we have that linear scalability, and you're able to do more for less, at the end of the day. You're getting more operations per second, per dollar, if you want to use that as a metric data. >> Thank you for that. What do customers need to think about when they want to get started with Capella? How difficult is it for people to jump in? >> It is incredibly simple. It's as simple as going to couchbase.com Clicking on start your free trial. You go into that free trial. You provide a minimal set of information for us, and it's literally a few clicks and you're going to have a database endpoint within three minutes. And that's really been a foundation of, of what we've been focused on over the last six to nine months is removing any friction we can in the process. Cause our goal is to give a firm a tremendous user experience and get people up and running as quickly as possible. So we're really, really proud of that. And then from a paid offering perspective, we have a number of offerings which are really aligned to the needs of each customer. Some individuals who want a larger cluster and they want to be able to pay for that, we've optimized service levels around that, in terms of level of support and the features that we think are appropriate for a dev cycle, a test cycle, and then inner production. And lastly, we'll be announcing a number of promotional starter pack bundles. Really trying to couple the overall service that we have with Capella, with some of our expertise. So helping new users get up and running in terms of things like index definitions, what's the best way to do document design and schema within Couchbase. Our end goal, is to match these services and bundles with the life cycle of application development. So in my development phase, what's the offering for me, as I move for production readiness, what services capabilities I need and then production and the ongoing, if I expand my use. So we've been really focused on how do we get people up and running as quickly as possible and how do we get them to production as quickly as possible at the lowest total cost. >> That's nice. That's a nice accelerant for, for customers. So as you heard upfront, I did a little research about the name, Capella. How did you choose it and why? >> Well, one thing I learned early in my career is naming is not a strong suit of mine. I leave that to John our Chief Marketing Officer in the overall team. We all have opinions, but I trust John. And we went through, I think it was over 60 names, seven rounds of debate to come up with Capella. But we wanted a name of strength. We liked the alliteration, Couchbase and Capella together. One of the little facts may have tipped it over is, I believe in Latin, it means little goats. So we kind of played, I'm from the bay area. So I was thinking to Jerry Rice, goat, greatest of all times. So that was nice play on that also. But I leave it to them and really happy with the overall name, love the, literation, love some of the hidden meanings within that. And we're really, really excited about getting it going. So you wouldn't want me to pick the name. I get a vote, but I would say my overall influence is a little bit lower than where John's is and, and Matt Cain, who I know you spoke with previously. >> I love it. Jerry Rice definitely is the little goat. I'm from New England. So of course, we think Tom Brady is the big goat. >> I know, I grew up in that Joe Montana era. So maybe you can take that offline after this interview, we're going to have around debate, but I guess a Superbowl trophies are the ultimate measure at the end of the day. >> Oh wait, I got a little stat for you. So, so Capella is also one of the 88 modern constellations as adopted by the international astronomical union. I.e not one of the ancient constellations. Pretty clever, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Scott, it's great to have you on the cube. Thanks so much, really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it All right. Thank you for watching. Our pleasure. Thank you for watching The Cubes coverage of Couchbase Connect 2021. Keep it right there for more great content. (upbeat music)

>> From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube in ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >> Throughout the pre-vaccine COVID era, IT buyers indicated that budget constraints would constrict 2020 spending by roughly 5 percent relative to 2019 levels. But the forced march to digital, combined with increased cyber threats, created a modernization mandate that powered Q4 spending last year and this momentum has carried through to 2021. However, COVID variants have delayed return to work and business travel plans and as such our current forecast for global IT spending remains strong at 6 to 7 percent but slightly down from previous estimates. Notably, CIOs and IT buyers expect a 7 to 8 percent increase in 2022 spending, reflecting investments in hybrid strategies in a continued belief that technology remains the underpinning of competitive advantage in the coming decade. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll share the latest results of ETR's macro spending survey and update you in industry and sector spending patterns. First, let's summarize the key take-aways from ETR's latest demand-side survey. Based on ETR's latest survey. Currently with 869 responses as shown here at the bottom, we expect a slight pull-back in spending expectations from CIOs and IT buyers to roughly 6 to 7 percent, down from 7 to 8 percent earlier this year. This reflects caution over return to office strategies but buyers continue to expect robust spending as we said into next year as they support hybrid models, modernize their HQ infrastructure and continue to move forward on digital transformation initiatives. Cyber security and cloud remain the top 2 priorities with data initiatives overtaking collaboration and productivity on the priority list. Although all of these remain strong. Organizations now expect around 44 percent of employees to be working in a hybrid model over the long-term with 37 percent currently working in a hybrid fashion. Now here's the data behind the revised projections it compares the spending growth expectations from the March, June, and September 21 surveys. This by no means is a radical change as you can see from the downward trajectory of the yellow bar. It reflects the reality of the continued injection of uncertainty caused by the pandemic. Organizations are dealing with the reality and remaining flexible with regard to strategies and spending outlook, but the 2022 bar on the far-right at 7 and a half percent stands out in its telling as buyers expect spending levels in 22 to outpace historical norms by quite a large margin. Now as shown here, the spending compression is an across the board trend. Only Latin America, industrial materials manufacturing, and retail consumer show an uptick from previous surveys. With non-profits, education, energy, and APAC showing the steepest declines. But the longer term spending outlook remains robust across the boards. This chart shows that generally the outlook for 2022 spending is strong with retail consumer and government leading the charge. Only the historically cautious education sector stands out as softer, but even so its spending outlook is comparable to historical norms. Now be careful putting too much emphasis, by the way, on Latin America as the ends are small as ETR noted here. Now let's take a look at the sector analysis. This picture has been amazingly consistent. ETR asks respondents to rate their spending priorities and the chart shows the ratings from highest to lowest priority for the top technology sectors. Now this data only shows the top 7 sectors, so even though for instance RPA appears down the list, it remains one of the highest in the survey. In fact, although we are not showing this data, we went in and looked at this. Machine learning, containers, cloud, and RPA remain the top 4 areas from a net score or spending momentum standpoint. Well above the 40 percent mark we talk about all the time. Back to the priorities we asked the CIOs. Cyber security is noticeably above the rest with cloud migration remaining very strong. The data sector i.e. analytics and data warehousing have overtaken collaboration and productivity as priorities. However, collaboration remains strong as do networking, AI, and RPA. Now when we dig into some of these sectors to see which vendors are showing spending momentum, let's take a look. In addition to the large cloud players, especially AWS and Microsoft, we saw that snowflake continued to hover at around 80 percent net score level. Some others that we haven't cited as much recently are popping up either with spending momentum, or showing a larger presence in the market or both within these sectors. Toughtsbot has popped up now this AI specialist has shown up every now and then in the survey but they seem to be getting traction in the data set and they have an elevated net score. Datadog also stood out as did Cockroach Labs and Databricks is starting to show some strength even though they have shown strength in past surveys, they're starting to show larger presence in the survey. Now Networking Arista who has always had strong momentum shows continued strong momentum. And Maraki which has a large presence in the data set, is also notable. Not as high, but as a much larger share. Monday.com is also hitting the radar in collaboration and Twilio is popping up as well. Let's take a look at the return to office trends and the actions organizations have taken as a result of COVID and see how that's changed over time. This data shows the time series going back to the June 2020 survey. Let's start with the percent of organizations with employees working from home and you'll note that has ticked up since June and is now back up to 75 percent. And you can see the noticeable drop in the percentage of companies that have employees fully returning to the office. Also, more organizations are canceling business trips. So these are some of the factors that contribute to the slightly more cautious spending outlook that we're reporting here. Now continuing on the chart even though layoffs are trending downward, it's no surprise given the skill shortage you see a slight uptick in hiring freezes and a downtick in new hiring. New IT deployment freezes they remain low but there is a slight down tick in accelerating new IT deployments. So look, these are not radical changes, but they do reflect the on-going day-by-day, month-by-month, quarter-by-quarter adjustments that we've seen companies make throughout the COVID era. And it underscores the need for organizations to be more agile, flexible, resilient, and responsive to change. What does that mean? It means modernizing infrastructure and apps, better leveraging data, applying AI, and taking care of governance, compliance, and security. And CIOs expect these spending priorities to continue for the foreseeable future, at least for the next 15 months. Now as we've declared in previous episodes, every CEO, CXO, corner office, boards of directors, they're trying to get hybrid right. Interestingly, we see some companies mandating a return to work. We've seen this with some of the Wall Street firms, for example, but tech is a leading example of advocating for remote or hybrid work. To it, Michael Dell's public posture that he's wide-open for remote and, or hybrid work and Frank Slootman has moved Snowflakes' executive offices to Bozeman, Montana reflecting his sentiment that the days of big corporate towers are over. And why not? Productivity is through the roof, and the cost savings from working remotely can be enormous. This chart shows data back to the December 2020 survey. And we've seen a steady decline in remote work, but it's still the dominant model of 53 percent of the work force. In other words, people are starting to come back to office but still very, very high remote. Now jump to the third set of bars. And organizations expect a 39 percent of employees to be working remotely in 6 months. Now jump back to the second set of bars, 37 percent of employees are currently working in a hybrid model and that's up from 33 percent in June. Now jump to the fourth set of bars and the expectation is around 44 percent will be working in a hybrid model within the next 6 months. Organizations expect remote workers to settle in and level around 30 percent. Now that's down from previous highs of 35 percent last December but it's up significantly from the historical average of 15 to 16 percent. And the expectation as you can see in the last set of bars is that more than 40 percent of employees will be working in a hybrid model, on a permanent basis. So look, the world is going hybrid. It's the future and that requires technology investments to support new ways to work. And that's one main reason why we see the spending momentum continuing into 2022. So let's drill a little bit into what this means. In order words, how are organizations thinking about their hybrid models. This chart shows the responses from the June and September surveys when ETR began asking organizations to describe their hybrid approaches in more detail. The dominant model, around 50 percent of organizations say time will be split between remote and required on-site days. This is where leaders will ask employees to come to the office at designated times for whiteboard sessions, or planning meetings, et cetera. So hybrid is the dominant model. Then we see a big drop to primarily on-site with exceptions as needed and a low single digit number of organizations with no hybrid option. So the message is clear: Hybrid is the way forward and IT infrastructure will evolve to support these models and this bodes well for tech spending in our view. It speaks to continued cyber investments, leverage the cloud for flexible capacity shoring up on-prem infrastructure as we now see more vendors offering flexible capacity on-prem. Modernizing applications, building layers with micro-services and kubernetes that can actually connect to the cloud or assist in moving workloads, evolving the network architecture, flattening that out we hear a lot of talk about the edge, driving automation, and new ways to work and putting data at the core of digital business strategies. These are the technology approaches that organizations are tapping to deal with the changing dynamics of the pandemic, and adapting to new business models. Across the board, technology has become one of the most important enablers for competitiveness ain the coming decade and we expect that momentum to continue until some exogenous factors derail the spending trend. At the moment, that risk doesn't appear to be a slow-down in an economic recovery, although we continue to watch uncertainties around interest rates, inflation, tax policy, and global economic tensions, especially with China. And as always, we'll be here to update you as the data changes. Okay we're going to leave it there for now, remember these episodes are all available as podcasts you just got to search "breaking analysis podcasts" and we publish each week on wikibon.com and silliconeggle.com. You can connect with me on twitter @Devalante or email me at david.valante@silliconeggle.com. Appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and don't forget to check out ETR.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Valante for the Cube insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (music)

>>Okay, welcome back to the cubes coverage of Del tech world. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here for virtual coverage were not yet face to face as we start to come out of covert, we're still doing the remote but we got the cube virtual. We're here with Dennis Hoffman, senior Vice President, General Manager for the telecom Systems business group within Dell Technologies dead. It's great to see you. Thanks for coming in CUba alumni. Thanks for coming on. >>My pleasure, john great to see you and look forward to the days when we can stop doing this virtually. >>Well, you guys have been certainly pumping out a lot of content and right now telco cloud telco disruption is big. We heard Michael Dell last event and even when we were in person in real life, we he was really laying down the five G leadership now with hybrid cloud, um, standardized, pretty much I mean, consensus is no, no debate really. It's hybrid multi cloud on the horizon. That's still just a subsystem of basically distributed computing A. K. A hybrid cloud makes the edge a huge part of the story this year. And the innovations all around telecom, Edge in five G have been around and they're changing really fast. What's how are these Edge in five G technologies impacting the market today? >>Yeah, it's uh is fascinating times, I'll tell you they are providing really the ultimate carrots, you know, the catalyst for um innovation in the market and really driving the world's network operators To uh want to take advantage of all the opportunity that the edge presents and that 5G enables. And it's, you know, at the end of the day, it's really forcing folks to think hard about if they have the right network architectures to enable that to capture that opportunity to have the right kind of capabilities. And so we're seeing an awful lot of interest in network desegregation, network modernization, various forms of adopting the technology is you and I are familiar with from years of what's going on in data center evolution are really starting to hit the telco network now at a really, really interesting time >>while we're on the landscape. Do you want to get your opinion on something? I've been hearing a lot, certainly in interviewing other folks here at Dell tech world and in the industry about how the edge and the data compute equation and the connectivity has changed how they're going to lay out essentially their factory, their plants, their operations and certainly covid pushing everyone at home has changed the game on how data is being computed on and how apps are being built. This is a huge five G opportunity certainly when you start to get into the business impact, autonomous vehicles, I've been doing stories about autonomous boats and everything we could have an autonomous cube soon. So, you know, everything is autonomous which drives to this whole edge piece, What's your take on that? >>Yeah, you know, it's, it's funny for years we've been talking about on prem and off prem, like there's two problems there turns out there's a third Prem, right? There is the other premises and that is not the private data center and not the public cloud. And when you stop and think about it, it it makes sense because at the end of the day, wherever we can get data, we can create digital advantage and it's always been cheaper and more effective and faster to move compute to data than to move data to compute. So technology is like 5G are beginning to make it possible to run very interesting applications in very different places and capture what is predicted to be some 3/4 of the data created over the next decade is going to get created somewhere other than a private data center or a public cloud. And that's the edge, you know, in telcos, look at that third premises as their opportunity to get another bite of the apple on services. Four G was kind of a story of the over the top. Players really took the profit pool and made a lot of money from the over to the netflix is to the itunes and so on and so forth. But when you come back to Five G and think of it kind of as the Enterprise G, it's a chance now for the world's network operators to really get a chunk of that profit pool that comes from the emergence of this third premises called the edge >>Enterprise G. I love that, I'm gonna steal that from you. It's a great, great uh >>somebody else >>uh Yeah, the new trend, but it's a business, it's a business opportunity again, totally cool. And consumers to um okay, so you got your out on the road a lot. I know that we've talked in the past on the cube. There's a lot of discussions in the industry, as well as customers that you're having. What are you hearing? What are the some of the pain points are, see Covid has unveiled unveiled new use cases, people had had adapted to it. There's adaptations that are out there that are new and then things that might not happen again. What are you hearing from customers? >>Yeah, I would say in summary, we're hearing a mix of optimism and uncertainty, optimism around all the stuff we just talked about and that you mentioned, you know, it's it's a blank from anywhere. World right work from anywhere, learn from anywhere. Medicine from anywhere. And you know, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's about the absolute necessity of communications technology to the world we live in today. The uncertainty comes from this question of, okay, so I know that there's this big opportunity and I know that I need to modernize my network architecture and kind of change the way I operate to capture it all. But the architecture is I run on today, make that really hard. And the architecture is that that the modern data center is built on, We know they work. But how do I get them in a way that allows me to build a resilient, high performance agile communications network. Um, you know, today we uh we face a world in which we see, we have a world in which solutions are delivered very fairly monolithically in the network uh for network operators but going forward, the power to potentially decompose all of that is wonderful provided it can be recomposed in a way they can consume. And I think that's where the uncertainty lies. There's a lot of testing and trialing of pieces of applications of underlying hardware, infrastructure, servers, accelerators, um certainly different types of virtualization and container ization technologies. But in the end these networks need to run it many many many nines um and they need to be extremely robust and pulling together a lot of different components from the open ecosystem is a daunting challenge for most of the network operators. >>You know, I hear you saying about the opportunity recognition and the re factoring how we called re composing this opportunity here and again. I like this enterprise G angle because what it means is that it's not the consumer the only it's it's everything. It's a complete consumer ization of I. T. So it's a whole another edge landscape. Prem third, the third premise is the edge. All good. I've always so set on the cube and certainly Dave and I have David and I have riffed on this is that you know, everything is now cloud operations and the data center is a big edge and then you've got other pieces that are just edges. A distributed system kind of sounds like a computer in the cloud. So this is kind of operating model. So I have to ask the question which is in telco, if it's gonna be distributed like that and it's going to be operated at scale, how is Dell responding to capture the mind share and customers using Dell in this new telco disruption? Because it's kind of you got to keep the lights on and you gotta also get them in a position to take advantage of the new opportunity. How are you responding? >>Yeah, Well, we're trying to we're literally trying to fill that gap, you know, the talking to the world's uh modern or say the world's telecom network operations leaders. We've uh we've had a lot of conversations with folks about what they need to do and what's holding them back from really in many ways taking advantage of the digital transformation that that's kind of rippling through the economy. And as they kind of laid that out to us, we decided that it was an enormous opportunity for Dell that this this uh you know, this new network will be fundamentally built on computer technology uh and it will be open industry standard computer technology. And on top of that we will use virtualization. And if this begins to sound like the way data centers are being built, because that's exactly what's happening. But more than that, I think there's a need for an at scale substantial provider that the world's biggest carriers can bet on and feel they can trust as a strategic partner to not only pull the ecosystem together, validated, certified, curated a little bit uh, and deliver it as an outcome, but then stand behind it running and importantly, do all of that in a way that doesn't constrain the continuous innovation. That's really the hallmark of some of these modern architecture. So for us, we see, you know, an opportunity that is literally perfectly built for a company like dealt and that's why we decided to invest in it. That's why you hear Michael talking about it a lot. Uh it's um, you know, it's it's really super well aligned with our strategy, we think it's actually key to winning the edge. Uh and and it's also really well aligned with our purpose, you know what this company exists to accelerate human progress through technology. And this little slice of it is all about accelerating communications and the transformation of modern networks to do exactly that right, To help close the digital divide, to bring fair and equitable medicine and learning to all, um and to allow us all to work from wherever we're working. So it's uh it's something that we're excited about on multiple levels and we think the company is really built for the distributed computing environment that a modern telco network represents. >>Yeah, what's interesting is that the value that you guys can enable at the edge, his real impact, It's not just data center and compute and have applications. Remember the old days I got my crm in my E. R. P and I got my apps on my systems and it's all good now. Business is completely software enables, it's the entire business and the business is software naval, which means that you have to have that edge. So I totally love of the positioning and strategy. I have to ask you if you don't mind, where is the residents with customers when you look at the telco enablement there that you're enabling them to do what's resonating the most, what's jumping out from the telescopes in terms of what Dell's doing for them And the customers, you mentioned tele medicine, which by the way, is an amazing impact to the world. Just one example. But where's the residence? >>Yeah. You know, first we we are what we are. Right. So it's, I think with a lot of conversations, it begins with, um, the telecommunications network needs server technology, but it needs very specific kinds of server technology built in very specific ways. Um, the, you know, the needs of compute at the base of a cell tower on a hill in Montana in the middle of winter are different than we've been building for data centers for years. So I think the first thing that resonates it, I need it, I need a very specific kind of open compute, uh, infrastructure hardware foundation that is industry standard. And, and we turn to somebody like Delta do do exactly that. But what we've learned is there's so much more than that because really we need to begin to deliver outcomes on top of that foundation. Uh, First outcome, we need to deliver his modern operations and maintenance of a distributed network. Zero touch provisioning, zero touch upgrading. How can we impact the total cost of maintenance and ownership in a meaningful way, um, for a network that is in fact constructed out of a fabric of server. On top of that there's the actual network core network services, Edge, the radio access network. And how do we successively open up each section of the network, driving computing storage all the way to the edge? Because for many organizations in the world, many enterprises, their edge will actually be on the telco premises. Right. The telco edge will be their edge. Some of the bigger companies certainly can build their own. But as you get in the world of medium and small business, the person they buy their circuits from and their communications from. If they have the ability to deliver them private slices of networks and virtual compute and storage, that's going to be how they get after it. So you know for us that next piece that resonates is the ability to pull together solutions like we've been doing for years with the ex rail hyper converged the stuff we did with the C. E. Back in the day and then last >>I'm just saying that you know you're bringing up things that kind of sound. It's super complex physical plant and equipment. You're talking about real hard and purpose built devices in the past very operational technology oriented stuff and then that has to have I. T. Agility right? And then have scalability behind it and complete you know integration this is not obvious and easy. It's hard. >>Yeah. No I mean software doesn't run on software right? Software runs on hardware and so as much as a lot of the power and the interest comes from what the application can do underlying it all is a capability to distribute, compute and storage to where the application or the software wants to run or runs best. That's what's really cool about five G is its ability to do the stuff you mentioned earlier on, you know, the, the G Wiz stuff, drones and autonomous and a AR and VR and all the things that ultra reliable, low latency communication would make possible on a grand scale that really bring the machines into the picture, not just humans on the edge. It's the stuff, right? That that's on the edge and we've been talking about it for a long time, but none of it's gonna matter if we don't put this infrastructure foundation in place. Then we got to lay an open marketplace of containerized network functions. Virtualized network functions on top of that all to enable our network operators to deliver interesting services to end users. It's >>super exciting. I got to say that it's a super exciting because you know, it's coming it's like the energies there, it's like the, you know, the storm's coming of disruption in the innovation because you think about what containers and cloud native kubernetes the cloud native technologies can do for legacy because its shelf life and more headroom, right? So you can you can win these telcos can actually not only pivot but line extension into new capabilities. So they tend to be very strong technically is an operator, operator networks, the hard tech stuff, physical stuff and software but not known for it. I mean but now there's a huge opportunity that's gonna come around the corner. I'm bullish on Iot and edge where you have the O. T. And I. T. Coming together. It's really compelling And it's going to be radically different I think in the next 5 to 10 years what's your take on that in terms of outlook? >>Couldn't agree more. Yeah I mean it's you know it's for those of us are in the industry always the knowledge of what's coming or the belief in what's coming. The hype precedes the actual development. But you know just as I don't know 15 20 years ago the idea that you can completely disrupt the taxi industry with an app and a four G smartphone service was in nobody's mind except maybe a couple of people. You >>know it >>makes you wonder what is the what is the uber equivalent of a business service that will be fundamentally enabled by the architecture we just described that we're not thinking about right now and that's why every time we move from a centralized computing model to a decentralized computing models that decentralized computing models dramatically larger than a centralized, >>way >>bigger than mainframe. Edge, way bigger than client server, which is already way bigger than cloud, Public. Cloud. And so I think it's, you know, there's a, there's a lot of promise, a lot of excitement. Still a long way to go though. A lot of the stuff we're talking about still is not actually rolled out into the network. Um and that's kind of the opportunity for somebody like them. >>Yeah. And decentralized and open winds. It's funny you mentioned high, we were talking David was just talking with Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger in 2013. We're talking hybrid cloud, that's 78 years ago. Okay, so good stuff. Let's get into the news real quick. Um Deltek World, you've got some news coming. Uh Let's dig into it. Please share some of the outlook of the news. You're gonna be you're you're announcing here? >>Yeah, thanks. Sure, john, I mean, we're gonna be announcing two things relative to the telecom portfolio. Uh and they're both reference architectures with VM ware. One is the second edition of the telco cloud platform for five G. Um, so that's a Delvian where reference architecture, that is exactly what we just talked about. It's this open software defined on industry standard hardware platform, um for running 5G applications. And then the other one is the first version of the telco cloud platform for the radio access network, TCP ran as we would call it. Um and as we start to push this technology from the core out towards the edge of the telecom network. So to really interesting developments in in deep partnership with VM ware and stuff, we've been working on for a while stuff, we are in fact working on with customers and delivering today and we'll be making formal announcements about those at the D T W show. >>Awesome. Dennis, thanks for coming on the Cuban, sharing the update and thanks for the industry insight. Uh, I love the telco shift that's going on. It's an extension of existing, I think cloud native saves the day here with telco and allows the completely different landscape to evolve. So you guys were on top of it. Thanks for sharing S VP and general manager, the telecom systems business with Dell Dennis. Hoffman. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks john Okay >>cube coverage here. Del Tech world. I'm john for a year. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS Public sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. Everyone welcome back to the Cube's virtual coverage of Amazon Web services. Public sector Summit Online Virtual I'm John Furrier, your host of the Cube here in our Palo Alto studios were quarantined with our crew here. We're talking to all the guests, getting all the content I'm excited of. Sandy Carter Cube alumni's also the VP vice president. Worldwide public sector partners and programs. Sandy. Great to see you virtually. You look >>great virtually too. It's great to see everybody virtually. >>I love the sign behind you. Powered by AWS. I'm excited to have you on, but I really wanted to get jump right in because this is really an important conversation. Public sector is seeing a lot of activity around what's going on with covert 19 especially with all the public services that are needed. And people are now remote workers, remote consumers, public service and still needs to be delivered just like business. So it's a really had a big impact of the entire world. We're all seeing it. We're feeling it's not just tech thing. How are you seeing your community respond? Your partners are responding to covert. 19. Can you share what's happening? >>Yes, John, I have to say, I am so incredibly proud of the partners that we support and how they've stepped up in this time. That has no blueprint, right? It's brand new for everybody, whether we're talking about virtual call centers. We had so many states that said they had people waiting for hours waiting for calls to be answered about Covance for Take. For instance, West Virginia, West Virginia had collars waiting for hours 77,000 calls a day. They worked with one of our partners, Smartronix, and they got this new solution a ream or remote virtual call center, up in 72 hours. 72 hours later, Average wait. Time was 60 seconds. Amazing job by Smartronix or one of our other partners, Elektronik Caregiver who's based out of New Mexico, where my husband's from a great partner who's been looking at, um, telemedicine, how they can help those at risk in hospitals and rehabs, even just at their homes. Or another startup that's a partner of ours called Hello, Alice, that integrated with our AI and ML to create a small business platform to help those small businesses get access to funding. Answer questions During this really hard time and the last example, I'll give you his Inter vision, one of our newest premier partners, who had a customer that came to them and said, Look, I need to get a remote work solution up workspaces identity manager help desk And they thought it would take months and Inter Vision was able to do it in week. So I am so proud and so thankful of our partners and what they've done to really impact the world, not just for their own profit, but for purpose helping out states, governments and citizens >>and congratulations. And it's well needed. People are feeling the pain. One area I want to get your thoughts on is the agencies we talked to the Department of Defense general manager earlier today. Um, all of the agencies in in public sector are shifting, and obviously, with the limitations, they got a shift to the remote workforce. They got to be faster. They got to be agile. I know they've been trying to, but they can't just wait any longer. They're forced to. How are your public sector partners helping the agencies? >>Yeah, this is another just terrific story. I cannot brag about our partners enough with our agency work. So if you looked at all of the agencies, kind of had a tight title wave of this digital transformation, things that we're gonna take them years ended up taking them weeks and months. So whether it's Kansas with the Department of Labor, they had 8800 and 77,000 calls a day. 21 staff couldn't do. It worked with our partners to get a call center up and going or in New Mexico again with Accenture, they used Amazon Connect, which is one of my new favorite products from Amazon. It's a call center that leverages machine learning and AI. They were able to work with the New Mexico Human Services and get that up and going in two days, Um, or even in Montana, a great story with Deloitte, where they built a custom chat box in seven days, custom chat box and seven days to answer questions about food and medicine and even how to get cash. If you needed to get cash, our partners really stepped up with the agencies, and they did so much compelling work so quickly. I think speed was such a great component here, John. The speed of deployment, the speed of help. You know, working 24 by seven to deliver these solutions. Our partners really did an amazing job. >>Yeah, and it's really hard with virtual. I got, I got I wish I was in person with everyone because coming to the public sector summits, one of my favorite events reinvent in public sector. Some of the two big shows, I really think encapsulate all the activity because it's virtual. People might miss some news. What else is going on in the world of public sector partners? You? Can you elaborate more on what's going on around the edges? What's on the bleeding? Cutting edge? What's the pioneer and what are some of the blocking and tackling that you're doing? Share some of the news. What else is going on? >>Yeah. Thank you, John. There's so much going on. First of all, we just introduced a new partner solution portal. So all of these code that 19 solutions are featured there. We will provide a URL for any customer looking for a great solution by our partners. We also really honed in and helped our partners during this time around. Said Ramp. And you know that fed ramp is so crucial. Security cybersecurity Incredibly essential. During this time I know you talked to my good friend Casey from Salesforce. They were able to achieve their fed ramp I and we offer a lot of help to our partners to help them to achieve not just fed ramp, but GDP are as well as HIPPA too. Some other news on migrations. We've got a competency around migrations. We've got some new funding for our partners around map and we're seeing our migration's really accelerate, you know, once these agencies, once he states see the power of the cloud, they're like, give me more, I want to put more and so we're seeing migrations accelerate. I know that you saw the Navy speak about what they're doing with s AP and as to another one of my favorite partners 72,000 users now running in his two on AWS. Six different commands pretty powerful. And I would say last but not least, is PTP our program transformation program for our partners, which really is like 100 and 10 day session to help the partners become a cloud business themselves. So they're kind of drinking their own champagne before they go out and help others. They become a cloud business. It's really powerful. This program has helped to generate twice the revenue of a typical a PM program. >>You mentioned the Navy always having interesting chat about that. Migration was less than 10 months. >>Yes, again. Speed, speed, speed, right, John. I mean, it's incredible >>years, two months, and the other thing that you probably find interesting and this is something that's kind of not talked about. But it's felt just the basic stuff, like getting paperwork in some of these processes, like you mentioned Fed Ramp. There's a lot of things that go on around public sector. You just got to get done. You got a slog through it, if you will. You guys have have responded well there, and this is the benefit of the cloud. Having the streamlined processes elaborate more on that, because I think that's important. Benefit not only just started in the critical infrastructure, like call centers and things of that nature, but getting business done. That's a big thing. >>Yeah, And I would say, you know, if you look at it, we helped over 20 states with their insurance processes. I mean, it seems like a minor thing, but a lot of these things were manual before, Um, we've helped many states with unemployment, you know, very critical at this time, taking a manual process and getting it into the cloud. There's so many of these that we can go on and on about How do you get medical supplies? One of our partners cohesive down in Latin America has been helping around some of the supply chain issues that that we deal with there some of the things that we take for granted when you're in person now that your virtual, you really need to think them through in the cloud. So again, you know, our partners responded with speed. They responded with heart to John one of the other things, you know, hashtag tech for good. They responded with heart as well as they were looking at these projects and ensuring that states and agencies and governments around the world could take care of their citizens, which is all of us. >>You know, existing. We've talked in the past. We've talked on camera and off camera around our shared passion around tech for good. I've been a big proponent of as well as us of right of other folks. But with the crisis, the word impact means something. And social impact is actually social impact. Getting your unemployment check or, you know, this this is highlights the critical nature of why these services exist. I think it's a real testament. I think people should step back and saying why we should never go back to the old antiquated ways because this is now the new reality. These services can be agile, they can be faster. It takes a crisis, unfortunately, and I guess that could be the silver lining in all this. So props to you guys on giving the partnership there with the partners >>and to the governments and states, John, who have now, like they moved rapidly, right? All these states, all these agencies, all these governments move quickly to digital transformation. Now they've gotten a taste of it, and they're like, give me more. And so the great thing to me is that this wasn't a one time event or one time crisis driven movement. Now that they see the power of it much like what you're saying with your business, they're doing more and and that's what I really applaud for all of them. And the way that they're transforming the business is now longer term. >>I'm optimistic, and I hope when we come out of this when everyone gets settled and they re imagine and reinvent, there's a growth strategy and expansion could be for positive change. So you've >>got >>stuff. We're all for that, and we'll be watching that reporting on it. I >>want to >>ask you something. I've heard that you guys will be soon expanding your public safety and disaster response partner. Competency. Can you tell me more about that? >>Yeah, So we announced the This is a hard one is disaster response in public safety competency at re invent for our consulting partners? And that went over amazingly well. I mean, take, for instance, Max are who is probably the best at believing delivering data both pre and post data to a disaster. They helped Noah, for instance, where data was taking 100 minutes to get that data down. Not good enough in a disaster. They were able to achieve a 58% faster download of data so you can do something with that Use that data to make good decisions. So these consulting partners have really embraced are our disaster recovery and public safety response competency. And now what we want to do is introduce this for our technology partners. So we're announcing the coming of this program for our technology partners. Now who is a technology partner? Well, think about an AI is the or a SAS provider these type of partners who have great solutions that target this particular area, think about public safety right now and how important that is, or even disaster response. You know, we have cove it, but right after that, we have all these hurricanes and earthquakes and other things that are happening around the world. Killer hornets. Um and so we've got some great technology partners that have solutions here, and we'll be welcoming them into this confidence. He fold as well. >>Well, this brings up something I've been commenting on. I want to get your reaction is because you know, when you have that flywheel pattern, infrastructures of service platforms of service and sass that build cloud when we've seen the benefits over a decade. Plus, when you bring the business model, you start to see the same thing. Some foundational things like infrastructure as service would be like compliance. Instant auditing that the Navy seeing, for instance, I heard earlier and then that platform pieces to allow these new workloads. So these new applications are going to be coming on. Creative surge of application developers, new kinds of workloads, new kinds of workforces and and work work flows. So you're gonna start to see these new APS. That means you guys will probably be inundated with new things. How do people get involved? Do they join a PN? What are some of the benefits? What should someone do? I want to be a partner of AWS because I see a solution. I create something that may be unique and specialize in niche. But it solves a really important problem. I want to bring it to Amazon. How do I do that? >>And we want you as a partner to John. Um, so yes. I mean, if you're a partner, the very first place to start is to join our A p m r Amazon Partner Network. If you're a startup or an I s d a distributor or reseller consulting partner, any of those that would be the first place to start, And then based on what you're interested in, you would then select the types of help that you might get. So, for example, if you're a start up, we helped start ups with credits because a lot of startups need free credits as they're starting their businesses or even technologies. So if you think about Hello, Alice, uh, you know, really using tagging for her small business site during Cove it we were able to provide some technology expertise to get her moving and grooving. Um, other great programs that we have out there are things like 80 0 the authority to operate. And this is really important, John, because a lot of our our customers require fed ramp and fed ramp is very costly and not only costly, but takes a lot of time so we can dramatically reduce your time to market with fed ramp really help you through with all those best practices. In fact, today we have 110 fed ramp solution that have gone through our 80 or authority to hire authority to operate process. And that's four X. Our top two competitors combined four x the number of partners that have gotten through because of the amount of time that is reduced through this process as well as the best practices that we bring. We've done a slim down version, so if you're a start up and you're interested in it like we partner with the Joshua down at Capital Factory and they've got the Army future command, we got a lot of startups. You want it? We've also got a slim down version for for them as well. >>It's been a >>very powerful program, >>and being in the cloud you can fast track and learn from others. This >>is the >>whole point of cloud. >>Absolutely, And learning from others is, you know, one of the great things that we love to do. In fact, until I we're going to do a big partner meeting, you know, here at the summit we'll have partners that participate in the virtual online summit. We're going to do a separate meeting just for our partners in July as well to share with them some of the things that are important to them around programs and some of these AP and benefits and some of the changes that we've made to help support them during the Cove it crisis. >>And I think you know the partners or the channel or how you look at it. They're adding value and a great partner for Amazon. For you guys, It's a great city. >>Yeah, I mean, are we could not. We at Amazon could not do the business We do without our partners. They bring their expertise, their best practices, the skills and the relationships they have, the contracts they bring to the table. So we're so grateful for the partners that we have in our public sector partner program. It's one of the reasons I loved my job. Every day I get to talk to a new partner on a new technology area that they're working on. It could be, you know, spatial computing, or AI, and they're helping not just move for a business, but they're helping on a purposeful mission project usually which are so powerful in today's world, especially with all the different crisis, is that we've seen, >>you know, One thing I want to get just share with you is that I talk to a lot of partners, certainly on the Cube and in person. One of the things that resonates with partners is not only the optimism of Amazon and programs you run, but it's enablement. You guys really enable the partners to be successful on your behalf and you on their behalf. But ultimately the customer and I think, and there's money to be made so lucrative and profitable, and they could impact change. So this enabling capability is really the magic. And so I want to ask you on your final question. Here in the talk is what's the vibe now? Because also, we know it's pretty depressing with Cove it, um and we're gonna get through this, but so there will be a day we get through. This will be growth and strategies around. It will never be the same. Certainly, I believe the hybrid world. What's >>the >>vibe inside the Amazon Web services public sector partner team, the community, the ecosystem? Could you just give some insight into how people are doing? And what's the vibe? >>Yeah, I would say the vibe is hopeful um, we all see the difference and the impact that we're making on a daily basis. And because of that, um, we continue to stretch forward and really move mountains for our customers to help them deliver better services. Um, you know, our partners are jumping in and all kinds of areas. First of all, for example, they are jumping in on doing hackathons to help with covet 19. So, John, you know, girls and tech. We've got our partners and us as AWS jumping into happy on different solutions for some of these challenges that are facing there. That's all about hope. I hope that we can make a difference. We are jumping in and assisting on remote work and unemployment, um, to provide hope to the teams and the community. So I would say, you know, it's tough for all. In fact, one of my friends describes, this is a crisis cake, not one level of a crisis, but multiple levels of the crisis. And I have never been with a with a more optimistic and positive team in my whole life, one who's willing to do what it takes. And when I see team, I mean not just my AWS partner team, which is the best of the world, but our world class partner team as well, who is willing to jump in there and do what it takes to help our customers. Even this weekend, I had a part of my partner team and my partners working to solve a problem for an agency that was, you know, um, critical. And they jumped in on the weekend to make that happen. So I would say, if I could say one word, I would say My partner's are hopeful they are. They're learning. They're curious. They're stepping out into new areas like connect and remote work and remote learning. And they're doing things that they never thought was possible based on what's happening today. >>Critical infrastructure, critical software, services and processes gotta be maintained and this opportunity. So I think it's, you know, heads down with hope and growth, always great to chat with you. And of course, we'll be following and covering your event next month. So looking forward to it, exciting times. Sandy Carter, Thank you for joining me today for coverage. >>Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to be here on the Cube Thank you guys for watching as well. >>Sandy Carter, vice president, worldwide public sector partners in program. Distinguished Cube Alumni. A tough job, great job at same time. A lot of opportunities and hope. I'm John Furrow, your host of the Cube. You're watching our coverage. Cube Virtual of Amazon public sector Online summit. Thanks for watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (smooth music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this special exclusive presentation from theCUBE. We're digging into Pensando and their Future Proof Your Enterprise event. To help kick things off, welcoming in a friend of the program, Scott Raynovich. He is the principal analyst at Futuriom coming to us from Montana. I believe first time we've had a guest on the program in the state of Montana, so Scott, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu, happy to be here. >> All right, so we're going to dig a lot into Pensando. They've got their announcement with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Might help if we give a little bit of background, and definitely I want Scott and I to talk a little bit about where things are in the industry, especially what's happening in networking, and how some of the startups are helping to impact what's happening on the market. So for those that aren't familiar with Pensando, if you followed networking I'm sure you are familiar with the team that started them, so they are known, for those of us that watch the industry, as MPLS, which are four people, not to be confused with the protocol MPLS, but they had very successfully done multiple spin-ins for Cisco, Andiamo, Nuova and Insieme, which created Fibre Channel switches, the Cisco UCS, and the ACI product line, so multiple generations to the Nexus, and Pensando is their company. They talk about Future Proof Your Enterprise is the proof point that they have today talking about the new edge. John Chambers, the former CEO of Cisco, is the chairman of Pensando. Hewlett Packard Enterprise is not only an investor, but also a customer in OEM piece of this solution, and so very interesting piece, and Scott, I want to pull you into the discussion. The waves of technology, I think, the last 10, 15 years in networking, a lot it has been can Cisco be disrupted? So software-defined networking was let's get away from hardware and drive towards more software. Lots of things happening. So I'd love your commentary. Just some of the macro trends you're seeing, Cisco's position in the marketplace, how the startups are impacting them. >> Sure, Stu. I think it's very exciting times right now in networking, because we're just at the point where we kind of have this long battle of software-defined networking, like you said, really pushed by the startups, and there's been a lot of skepticism along the way, but you're starting to see some success, and the way I describe it is we're really on the third generation of software-defined networking. You have the first generation, which was really one company, Nicira, which VMware bought and turned into their successful NSX product, which is a virtualized networking solution, if you will, and then you had another round of startups, people like Big Switch and Cumulus Networks, all of which were acquired in the last year. Big Switch went to Arista, and Cumulus just got purchased by... Who were they purchased by, Stu? >> Purchased by Nvidia, who interestingly enough, they just picked up Mellanox, so watching Nvidia build out their stack. >> Sorry, I was having a senior moment. It happens to us analysts. (chuckling) But yeah, so Nvidia's kind of rolling up these data center and networking plays, which is interesting because Nvidia is not a traditional networking hardware vendor. It's a chip company. So what you're seeing is kind of this vision of what they call in the industry disaggregation. Having the different components sold separately, and then of course Cisco announced the plan to roll out their own chip, and so that disaggregated from the network as well. When Cisco did that, they acknowledged that this is successful, basically. They acknowledged that disaggregation is happening. It was originally driven by the large public cloud providers like Microsoft Azure and Amazon, which started the whole disaggregation trend by acquiring different components and then melding it all together with software. So it's definitely the future, and so there's a lot of startups in this area to watch. I'm watching many of them. They include ArcOS, which is a exciting new routing vendor. DriveNets, which is another virtualized routing vendor. This company Alkira, which is going to do routing fully in the cloud, multi-cloud networking. Aviatrix, which is doing multi-cloud networking. All these are basically software companies. They're not pitching hardware as part of their value add, or their integrated package, if you will. So it's a different business model, and it's going to be super interesting to watch, because I think the third generation is the one that's really going to break this all apart. >> Yeah, you brought up a lot of really interesting points there, Scott. That disaggregation, and some of the changing landscape. Of course that more than $1 billion acquisition of Nicira by VMware caused a lot of tension between VMware and Cisco. Interesting. I think back when to Cisco created the UCS platform it created a ripple effect in the networking world also. HP was a huge partner of Cisco's before UCS launched, and not long after UCS launched HP stopped selling Cisco gear. They got heavier into the networking component, and then here many years later we see who does the MPLS team partner with when they're no longer part of Cisco, and Chambers is no longer the CEO? Well, it's HPE front and center there. You're going to see John Chambers at HPE Discover, so it was a long relationship and change. And from the chip companies, Intel, of course, has built a sizeable networking business. We talked a bit about Mellanox and the acquisitions they've done. One you didn't mention but caused a huge impact in the industry, and something that Pensando's responding to is Amazon, but Annapurna Labs, and Annapurna Labs, a small Israeli company, and really driving a lot of the innovation when it comes to compute and networking at Amazon. The Graviton, Compute, and Nitro is what powers their Outposts solutions, so if you look at Amazon, they buy lots of pieces. It's that mixture of hardware and software. In early days people thought that they just bought kind of off-the-shelf white boxes and did it cheap, but really we see Amazon really hyper optimizes what they're doing. So Scott, let's talk a little bit about Pensando if we can. Amazon with the Nitro solutions built to Outposts, which is their hybrid solution, so the same stack that they put in Amazon they can now put in customers' data center. What Pensando's positioning is well, other cloud providers and enterprise, rather than having to buy something from Amazon, we're going to enable that. So what do you think about what you've seen and heard from Pensando, and what's that need in the market for these type of solutions? >> Yes, okay. So I'm glad you brought up Outposts, because I should've mentioned this next trend. We have, if you will, the disaggregated open software-based networking which is going on. It started in the public cloud, but then you have another trend taking hold, which is the so-called edge of the network, which is going to be driven by the emergence of 5G, and the technology called CBRS, and different wireless technologies that are emerging at the so-called edge of the network, and the purpose of the edge, remember, is to get closer to the customer, get larger bandwidth, and compute, and storage closer to the customer, and there's a lot of people excited about this, including the public cloud providers, Amazon's building out their Outposts, Microsoft has an Edge stack, the Azure Edge Stack that they've built. They've acquired a couple companies for $1 billion. They acquired Metaswitch, they acquired Affirmed Networks, and so all these public cloud providers are pushing their cloud out to the edge with this infrastructure, a combination of software and hardware, and that's the opportunity that Pensando is going after with this Outposts theme, and it's very interesting, Stu, because the coopetition is very tenuous. A lot of players are trying to occupy this edge. If you think about what Amazon did with public cloud, they sucked up all of this IT compute power and services applications, and everything moved from these enterprise private clouds to the public cloud, and Amazon's market cap exploded, right, because they were basically sucking up all the money for IT spending. So now if this moves to the edge, we have this arms race of people that want to be on the edge. The way to visualize it is a mini cloud. Whether this mini cloud is at the edge of Costco, so that when Stu's shopping at Costco there's AI that follows you in the store, knows everything you're going to do, and predicts you're going to buy this cereal and "We're going to give you a deal today. "Here's a coupon." This kind of big brother-ish AI tracking thing, which is happening whether you like it or not. Or autonomous vehicles that need to connect to the edge, and have self-driving, and have very low latency services very close to them, whether that's on the edge of the highway or wherever you're going in the car. You might not have time to go back to the public cloud to get the data, so it's about pushing these compute and data services closer to the customers at the edge, and having very low latency, and having lots of resources there, compute, storage, and networking. And that's the opportunity that Pensando's going after, and of course HPE is going after that, too, and HPE, as we know, is competing with its other big mega competitors, primarily Dell, the Dell/VMware combo, and the Cisco... The Cisco machine. At the same time, the service providers are interested as well. By the way, they have infrastructure. They have central offices all over the world, so they are thinking that can be an edge. Then you have the data center people, the Equinixes of the world, who also own real estate and data centers that are closer to the customers in the metro areas, so you really have this very interesting dynamic of all these big players going after this opportunity, putting in money, resources, and trying to acquire the right technology. Pensando is right in the middle of this. They're going after this opportunity using the P4 networking language, and a specialized ASIC, and a NIC that they think is going to accelerate processing and networking of the edge. >> Yeah, you've laid out a lot of really good pieces there, Scott. As you said, the first incarnation of this, it's a NIC, and boy, I think back to years ago. It's like, well, we tried to make the NIC really simple, or do we build intelligence in it? How much? The hardware versus software discussion. What I found interesting is if you look at this team, they were really good, they made a chip. It's a switch, it's an ASIC, it became compute, and if you look at the technology available now, they're building a lot of your networking just in a really small form factor. You talked about P4. It's highly programmable, so the theme of Future Proof Your Enterprise. With anything you say, "Ah, what is it?" It's a piece of hardware. Well, it's highly programmable, so today they position it for security, telemetry, observability, but if there's other services that I need to get to edge, so you laid out really well a couple of those edge use cases and if something comes up and I need that in the future, well, just like we've been talking about for years with software-defined networking, and network function virtualization, I don't want a dedicated appliance. It's going to be in software, and a form factor like Pensando does, I can put that in lots of places. They're positioning they have a cloud business, which they sell direct, and expect to have a couple of the cloud providers using this solution here in 2020, and then the enterprise business, and obviously a huge opportunity with HPE's position in the marketplace to take that to a broad customer base. So interesting opportunity, so many different pieces. Flexibility of software, as you relayed, Scott. It's a complicated coopetition out there, so I guess what would you want to see from the market, and what is success from Pensando and HPE, if they make this generally available this month, it's available on ProLiant, it's available on GreenLake. What would you want to be hearing from customers or from the market for you to say further down the road that this has been highly successful? >> Well, I want to see that it works, and I want to see that people are buying it. So it's not that complicated. I mean I'm being a little superficial there. It's hard sometimes to look in these technologies. They're very sophisticated, and sometimes it comes down to whether they perform, they deliver on the expectation, but I think there are also questions about the edge, the pace of investment. We're obviously in a recession, and we're in a very strange environment with the pandemic, which has accelerated spending in some areas, but also throttled back spending in other areas, and 5G is one of the areas that it appears to have been throttled back a little bit, this big explosion of technology at the edge. Nobody's quite sure how it's going to play out, when it's going to play out. Also who's going to buy this stuff? Personally, I think it's going to be big enterprises. It's going to start with the big box retailers, the Walmarts, the Costcos of the world. By the way, Walmart's in a big competition with Amazon, and I think one of the news items you've seen in the pandemic is all these online digital ecommerce sales have skyrocketed, obviously, because people are staying at home more. They need that intelligence at the edge. They need that infrastructure. And one of the things that I've heard is the thing that's held it back so far is the price. They don't know how much it's going to cost. We actually ran a survey recently targeting enterprises buying 5G, and that was one of the number one concerns. How much does this infrastructure cost? So I don't actually know how much Pensando costs, but they're going to have to deliver the right ROI. If it's a very expensive proprietary NIC, who pays for that, and does it deliver the ROI that they need? So we're going to have to see that in the marketplace, and by the way, Cisco's going to have the same challenge, and Dell's going to have the same challenge. They're all racing to supply this edge stack, if you will, packaged with hardware, but it's going to come down to how is it priced, what's the ROI, and are these customers going to justify the investment is the trick. >> Absolutely, Scott. Really good points there, too. Of course the HPE announcement, big move for Pensando. Doesn't mean that they can't work with the other server vendors. They absolutely are talking to all of them, and we will see if there are alternatives to Pensando that come up, or if they end up singing with them. All right, so what we have here is I've actually got quite a few interviews with the Pensando team, starting with I talked about MPLS. We have Prem, Jane, and Sony Giandoni, who are the P and the S in MPLS as part of it. Both co-founders, Prem is the CEO. We have Silvano Guy who, anybody that followed this group, you know writes the book on it. If you watched all the way this far and want to learn even more about it, I actually have a few copies of Silvano's book, so if you reach out to me, easiest way is on Twitter. Just hit me up at @Stu. I've got a few copies of the book about Pensando, which you can go through all those details about how it works, the programmability, what changes and everything like that. We've also, of course, got Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and while we don't have any customers for this segment, Scott mentioned many of the retail ones. Goldman Sachs is kind of the marquee early customer, so did talk with them. I have Randy Pond, who's the CFO, talking about they've actually seen an increase beyond what they expected at this point of being out of stealth, only a little over six months, even more, which is important considering that it's tough times for many startups coming out in the middle of a pandemic. So watch those interviews. Please hit us up with any other questions. Scott Raynovich, thank you so much for joining us to help talk about the industry, and this Pensando partnership extending with HPE. >> Thanks, Stu. Always a pleasure to join theCUBE team. >> All right, check out thecube.net for all the upcoming, as well as if you just search "Pensando" on there, you can see everything we had on there. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. 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>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Now here's your host, Stu Miniman! >> I'm Stu Miniman and this is a CUBE Conversation from our Boston area studio. Going to dig in to discuss the data catalog and to help me do that, I want to welcome to the program first-time guest Joe DosSantos who is the global Head of Data Management Strategy at Qlik. Joe, thank you so much for joining us. >> Good to be here Stu. >> All right so the data catalog, let's start there. People, in general, know what a catalog is. well maybe some of the millenniums might not know as much as those of us that been in the industry a little bit longer might have. So start there and help level set us. >> So our thinking is that there are lots of data assets around and people can't get at them. And just like you might be able to go to Amazon and shop for something, and you go through a catalog or you go to the library and you can see what's available, we're trying to approximate that same kind of shopping experience for data. You should be able to see what you have, you should be able to look for things that you need, you should be able to find things you didn't even know were available to you. And then you should be able to be able to put them into your cart in a secure way. >> So Joe, the step one is, I've gathered my data lake, or whatever oil or water analogy we want to use for gathering the data on, and then we've usually got analytic tools and lots of things there but this is a piece of that overall puzzle, do I have that right? >> That's exactly right so, if you think about what are the obstacles to analytics, there are studies out there that say less than one percent of analytics data is actually being analyzed. We're having a trouble with the pipelines to get data into the hands of people who can do something meaningful with it. So what is meaningful? Could be data science, could be natural language, which maybe if you have an Alexa at home or you just ask a question and that information is provided right back to you. So somebody wants to do something meaningful with data but they can't get it. Step one is go retrieve it, so our Attunity solution is really about how do we start to effectively build pipelines to go retrieve data from the source? The next step though is how do I understand that data? Cataloging isn't about just having a whole bunch of boxes on a shelf, it's being able to describe the contents of those shelves, it's being able to know that I need that thing. If you were to go into an Amazon.com experience and you say I'm going on a fishing trip and you're looking for a canoe, it'll offer you a paddle, it'll offer you lifejackets. It guides you through that experience. We want data to be the same way, this guided trip through the data that's available to you in that environment. >> Yes, it seems like - metadata is something we often talk about but it seems like even more than that. >> It really is, metadata is a broad term. If you want to know about your data, you want to know where it came from. I often joke that there are three things you want to know about data: what is it, where did it come from and who can have access to it under what circumstances. Now those are really simple concepts but they're really complex under the covers. What is data? Well, is this private information, is this person identifiable information, is a tax ID, is it a credit card? I come from TD Bank and we were very preoccupied with the idea of someone getting data that they shouldn't. You don't want everyone running around with credit cards, how do I recognize a credit card, how do I protect a credit card? So the idea of cataloging is not just available for everything, it's security. I'm going to give you an example of what happens when you walk into a pharmacy. If you walk into a pharmacy and you want a pack of gum or shampoo you walk up to the shelf and you grab it, it's carefully marked in the aisles, it's described but it's public, it's easy to get, there aren't any restrictions. If you wanted chewing tobacco or cigarettes you would need to present somebody with an ID who need to say that you are of age, who would need to validate that you are authorized to see that and if you wanted Oxycontin, you'd best have a prescription. Why isn't data like that, why don't we have rules that stipulate what kind of data belong in what kind of category and who can have access to it? We believe that you can, so a lot of impediments to that are about availability and visibility but also about security and we believe that once you've provisioned that data to a place then the next step is understanding clearly what it is, and who can have access to it so that you can provision it downstream to all of these different analytic consumers that need it. >> Yeah, data security is absolutely front and center, it's the conversation at board levels today, so the catalog, is it a security tool or it works with kind of your overall policies and procedures? >> So you need to have a policy. One of the fascinating things that exists in a lot of companies is you ask people please give me the titles of the columns that constitute personally identifiable information, you'll get blank stares. So if you don't have a policy, you don't have a construct, you're hopelessly lost. But as soon as you write that down now you can start building rules around that. You can know who can have access to what under what circumstances. When I was at TD we took care to try and figure out what the circumstances were that allowed people to do their job. If you're in marketing you need to understand the demographic information, you need to be able to distribute a marketing list that actually has people's names and addresses on it. Do you need their credit card number, probably not. We started to work through these scenarios of understanding what the nature of data was on a must-have basis and then you don't have to ask for approval every single time. If you go to Amazon you don't ask for approval to buy the canoe, you just know whether it's in stock, if it's available and if it's in your area. Same thing with data, we want to remove all of the friction associated with that just because the rules are in place. >> Okay, so now that I have the data what do I do with it? >> Well this is actually really an important part of out Qlik story. So Qlik is not trying to lock people into a Qlik visualization scenario. Once you have data what we're trying to do is to say that discovery might happen across lots of different platforms. Maybe you're a Tableau user, I don't know why, but there are Tableau users - no in fact we did use Tableau at TD - but if you wanted provision data and discover things and comparable BI tools, no problem. Maybe you want to move that into a machine learning type of environment, you have TensorFlow, you have H2O libraries doing predictive modeling, you have R and Python, all of those things are things that you might want to do, in fact these days a lot of times people don't want analytics and visualizations, they want to ask the questions, do you have an Amazon Alexa in your house? >> I have an Alexa and a Google Home. >> That's right so you don't want a fancy visualization, you want the answer to a question so a catalog enables that, a catalog helps you figure out where the data is that asks a question. So when you ask Alexa what's the capital of Kansas it's going through the databases that it has that are neatly tagged and cataloged and organized and it comes back with Topeka. >> Yeah. >> I didn't want to stump you there. >> Thank you Joe, boy, I think back in the world, there are people, ontological studies as to how I put these things together. As a user I'm guessing, using a tool like this, I don't need to have to figure how to set all this up, there's got to be way better tools and things like that just like in the discussion of metadata, most systems today do that for me or at least a lot of it but how much do I as a customer customize stuff and how much does it do it for me? >> So when you and I have a conversation we share a language and if I say where do you live you know that living implies a house, implies an address and you've made that connection. And so effectively all businesses have their own terminology and ontology of how they speak and what we do is, if we have that ontology described to us we will enforce those rules so we are able to then discover the data that fits that categorization of data. So we need the business to define that force and again a lot of this is about processing procedure. Anyone who works in technology knows that very little of the technological problems are actually about technology, they're about process and people and psychology. What we're doing is if someone says I care deeply and passionately about customers and customers have addresses and these are the rules around them, we can then apply those rules. Imagine the governance tools are there to make laws, we're like the police, we enforce those laws at time of shopping in that catalog metaphor. >> Wow Joe, my mind is spinning a little bit because one of the problems you have if you work for a big customer, you'd have different parts of the company that would all want the same answer but they'd ask it in very different ways and they don't speak the same language so does a catalog help with that? >> Well it does and it doesn't. I think that we are moving to a world in which for a lot of questions, truth is in the eye of the beholder. So if you think about a business that wants to close the books, you can't have revenue that was maybe three million, maybe four million. But if you want to say what was the effectiveness of the campaign that we ran last night? Was it more effective with women or men - why? Anytime someone asks a question like why, or I wonder if, these are questions that invite investigation, analysis and we can come to the table with different representations of that data, it's not about truth, it's about how we interpret that. So one of the peculiar and difficult things for people to wrap their arm around is in the modern data world with data democratization, two people can go in search of the same question and get wildly different answers. That's not bad, that's life, right? So what's the best movie that's out right now? There's no truth, it's a question of your tastes and what you need to be able to do is, as we move to a democratized world is, what were the criteria that were used? What was the data that was used? And so we need those things to be cited but the catalog is effectively the thing that puts you in touch with the data that's available. Think about your college research projects. You wrote a thesis or a paper, you were meant to draw a conclusion, you had to go to the library and get the books that you needed. And maybe, hopefully, no one had ever combined all of those ideas from those books to create the conclusion that you did. That's what we're trying to do every single day in the businesses of the world in 2019. >> Yeah it's a little scary in the world of science most things don't come down to a binary answer, there's the data to prove it and what we understand today might not be - if we look and add new data to it it could change. Bring in some customer examples as to what they're doing, how this impacts it and I wish brings more certainty into our world. >> Absolutely, so I come from TD Bank and I was the Vice President of Information Management Technology there, and we used Data Catalyst to catalog a very large data lake so we had a Hadoop data lake that was six petabytes, had about 200 different applications in it. And what we were able to do was to allow self service to those data assets in that lake. So imagine you're just looking for data and instead of having to call somebody or get a pipeline built and spend the next six months getting data, you go to a portal, you grab that data. So what we were able to do was to make it very simple to reduce that. We usually think that it takes about 50% of your time in an analysis context to find the data, to make the data useful, what if that was all done for you? So we created a shopping experience for that at an enterprise level. What was the goal - well at TD, we were all about legendary customer experience so we found very important were customer interactions and their experiences, their transactions, their web Qliks, their behavioral patterns and if you think about it what any company is looking to do is to catch a customer in the act of deciding and what are those critical things that people decide? In a bank it might be when to buy a house, when you need mortgages and you need potentially loans and insurance. For a healthcare company it might be when they change jobs, for a hospital it might be when the weather changes. And everybody's looking for an advantage to do that and you can only get that advantage if you're creative about recognizing those moments through analytics and then acting in real time with streaming to do something about that moment. >> All right so Joe one of the questions I have is is there an aspect of time when you go into this because I understand if I ask questions based on the data that I have available today but if I'd asked that two weeks before that it would be some different data and if I kept watching it, it would do that and so I've got certain apps I use like when's the best time to buy a ticket, when is the best time to do that, how does that play in? >> So there are two different dimensions to this, the first is what we call algorithmic decay. If you're going to try and develop an algorithm you don't want the data shifting under your feet as you do things because all of a sudden your results will change if you're not right and the sad reality is that most humans are not very original so if I look at your behavior for the past ten years and if I look at the past twenty it won't be necessarily different from somebody else, so what we're looking to do is catch mass patterns, that's the power of big data, to look at a lot of patterns to figure out the repeatability in most patterns. At that point you're not really looking for the data to change, then you go to score it and this is where the data changes all the time. So think about big data as looking at a billion rows and figuring out what's going on. The next thing would be traditionally called fast data which is now based on an algorithm - this event just happened, what should I do? That data is changing under your feet regularly, you're looking to stream that data, maybe with a change data capture tool like Attunity, you're looking to get that into the hands of people in applications to make decisions really quickly. Now what happens over time is people's behaviors change - only old people are on Facebook now right, you know this, so demographics change and the things that used to be very predictive fail to be and there has to be capability in an industry, in an enterprise to be able deal with those algorithms as they start to decay and replace them with something fresher. >> All right Joe, how do things like government compliance fit into this? >> So governance is really at the core of the catalog. You really need to understand what the rules are if you want to have an effective catalog. We don't believe that every single person in a data democratized world should have access to every single data element. So you need to understand what is this data, how should I protect it and how should I think about the overall protection of this data and the use of this data. This is a really important governance principle to figure out who can have access to these data sets under what circumstances. Again nothing to do with technology but the catalog should really enforce your policy and a really good catalog should help to enforce the policies that you're coming up with, with who should have access to that data under what circumstances. >> Okay so Joe this is a pretty powerful tool, how do customers measure that they're getting adoption, that they're getting the results that they were hoping to when they roll this out? >> No one ever woke up one day and said boy would it be great if I stockpiled petabytes of data. At the end of the day, >> I know some storage companies that say that. >> They wish the customers would say that but at the end of the day you have data for analytics value and so what is analytics value? Maybe it's about a predictive algorithm. Maybe it's about a vizualisation, maybe its about a KPI for your executive suite. If you don't know, you shouldn't start. What we want to start to do is to think about use cases that make a difference to an enterprise. At TD that was fundamentally about legendary customer experience, offering the next best action to really delight that customer. At SunLife that was about making sure that they had an understand from a customer support perspective about their consumers. At some of our customers, at a healthcare company it was about faster discovery of drugs. So if you understand what those are you then start from the analytical outcome to the data that supports that and that's how you get started. How can I get the datasets that I'm pretty sure are going to drive the needle and then start to build from there to make me able to answer more and more complex questions. >> Well great those are some pretty powerful use cases, I remember back in the early Hadoop days it was like let's not have the best minds of our time figuring out how you can get better ad clicks right? >> That's right it's much easier these days. Effectively Hadoop really allows you to do, what big data really allows you to do is to answer questions more comprehensively. There was a time when cost would prevent you from being able to look at ten years worth of history, those cost impediments are gone. So your analytics are can be much better as a result, you're looking at a much broader section of data and you can do much richer what-if analysis and I think that really the secret of any good analytics is encouraging the what-if kind of questions. So you want in a data democratized world to be able to encourage people to say I wonder if this is true, I wonder if this happened and have the data to support that question. And people talk a lot about failing fast, glibly, what does that mean? Well I wonder if right now women in Montana in summertime buy more sunglasses. Where's the data that can answer that question? I want that quickly to me and I want in five minutes to say boy Joe, that was really stupid. I failed and I failed fast but it wasn't because I spent the next six weeks looking for the data assets, it's because I had the data, got analysis really quickly and then moved on to something else. The people that can churn through those questions fastest will be the ones that win. >> Very cool, I'm one of those people I love swimming into data always seeing what you can learn. Customers that want to get started, what do you recommend, what are the first steps? >> So the first thing is really about critical use case identification. Again no one wants to stockpile data so we need to start to think about how the data is going to affect an outcome and think about that user outcome. Is it someone asking in natural language a question of an application to drive a certain behavior? Is it a real time decision, what is the thing that you want to get good at? I've mentioned that TD wanted to be good about customer experience and offer development. If you think about what Target did there's a notorious story about them being able to predict pregnancy because they recognized that there was an important moment, there was a behavioral change in consumers that would overall change how they buy. What's important to you, what data might be relevant for that, anchor it there, start small, go start to operationalize the pipes that get you the data that you need and encourage a lot of experimentation with these data assets that you've got. You don't need to create petabytes of data. Create the data sets that matter and then grow from use case to use case. One of our customers SunLife did a wonderful job of really trying to articulate seven or eight key use cases that would matter and built their lake accordingly. First it was about customer behavior then it was employee behavior. If you can start to think about your customers and what they care about there's a person out there that cares about customer attrition. There's a person out there that cares about employee attrition, there's a person out there that cuts costs about cost of delivery of goods. Let's figure out what they need and how to use analytics to drive that and then we can start to get smart about the data assets that can really cause that analytics to explode. >> All right well Joe, really appreciate all the updates on the catalogs there, data at the center of digital transformation for so many customers and illuminating some key points there. >> Happy to be here. >> All right thank you so much for watching theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to the live coverage here in Mosconi North in San Francisco for IBM. Think this. The cubes coverage. I'm Jeffrey David. Launching a too great guest here. Carlos. Gavel, gavel. A chief date. Officer Clara, Columbia and Carlos. See? Good. Engage your manager. IBM data Science elite team a customer of IBM country around data science. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. So we'll hear the street, the street to shut down a i N E. Where's the big theme? Multi cloud. But it's all about the data everywhere. People trying to put end to end solutions together to solve real business problems. Date is at the heart of all this moving date around from cloud to cloud using. Aye, aye. And technology get insights out of that. So take a minute to explain your situation, but you got to try to do. >> Okay. Okay, Perfect. Right now, we're working out a lot about the business thing because we need to use the machine learning models or all the artificial intelligence toe. Take best decisions for the company. Way. We're working with Carlo in a charming mother in order to know how how come with a boy the customers left the company Because for us it's very important to maintain our our customer toe. Now, how they're how are the cables is from them. There are two facility intelligences is next selling way to do it that way. Have a lot of challenge about that because, you know, we have a lot of data, different systems, that they're running the data way need to put all the information together to run them to run the mother's. The team that Carlo is leaving right now is helping to us a lot because we WeII know how to handle that. We know howto clean the data when you have to do the right governess for the data on the IBM iniquity is very compromised with us in there in order to do that safely. That is one of the union that is very close to us right now. She was working a lot with my team in order to run the models. You saying she was doing a lot of four. I mean, over fight on right now we are trained to do it in over the system, running this park on DH that is they? They Good way that we are. We are thinking that is going to get the gold for us way Need to maintain our customers. >> So years the largest telecommunications piece Claro in Mexico for boys and home services. Is that segments you guys are targeting? Yeah, Yeah. Scope. Size of how big is that? >> Clarisa? Largest company in Colombia For telecommunication. We have maybe fifty million customers in Colombia. More than fifty percent of the market marketer also way have many maybe two point five millions off forms in Colombia. That is more than fifty percent of the customers for from services on. Do you know that it's a big challenge for us because the competitors are all the time. Tryinto take our customers on DH the charm or they'll have toe. How's the boy that and how to I hope to do their artificial intelligence to do it much learning. It's a very good way to do that. >> So classic problem and telecommunications is Charon, right? So it's a date. A problem? Yeah, but So how did it all come about? So these guys came to you? >> Yeah. They help The game does. We got together. We talked about the problem and in turn was at the top right. These guys have a ton of data, so what we did is the team got together. We have really the way to data sensibly team works is we really helped clients in three areas. It's all about the right skills, the right people, the right tools and then the right process. So we put together a team. We put together some agile approaches on what we're going to do on DH. Then we'd get started by spinning up in environment. We took some data and we took there. And there's a lot of data is terabytes of data. We took their user data way, took their use users usage data, which is like how many text, cellphone and then bill on day that we pulled all that together and environment. Then the data scientists alongside what Carlos is team really worked on the problem, and they addressed it with, you know, machine learning, obviously target. In turn, they tried a variety of models, But actually, boost ended up being one of the better approaches on DH. They came up with a pretty good accuracy about nineties ninety two. Percent precision on the model. Predicting unpredictable turn. Yeah. >> So what did you do with that? That >> that that is a very good question because the company is preparing to handle that. I have a funny history. I said today to the business people. Okay, these customers are going to leave the company. Andi, I forget about that on DH. Two months later, I was asking Okay, what happened? They say, Okay, your model is very good. All the customers goes, >> Oh, my God, What >> this company with that they weren't working with a with information. That is the reason that we're thinking that the good ways to fame for on the right toe the left because twist them which is therefore, pulls the purposes toe Montana where our customers And in that case, we lose fifty thousand customers because we didn't do nothing Where we are close in the circle, we are taking care about that prescriptive boys could have tto do it on. OK, maybe that is her name. Voice problem. We need to correct them to fix the problem in orderto avoid that. But the fetus first parties toe predict toe. Get any score for the charm on Tau handled that with people obviously working. Also at the root cause analysis because way need to charm, way, need to fix from their road, >> Carla. So walk us through the scope of, like, just the project, because this is a concern we see in the industry a lot of data. How do I attack it? What's the scoop? You just come in and just into a data lake. How do you get to the value? These insights quickly because, honestly, they're starving for insights would take us through that quick process. >> Well, you know, every every problems with different. We helped hundreds of clients in different ways. But this pig a problem. It was a big data problem because we knew we had a lot of data. They had a new environment, but some of the data wasn't there. So what we did was way spun up a separate environment. We pulled some of the big data in there. We also pulled some of the other data together on DH. We started to do analysis on that kind of separately in the cloud, which is a little different, but we're working now to push that down into their Duke Data Lake, because not all the data is there, but some of the data is there, and we want to use some of that >> computer that almost to audit. Almost figure out what you want, what you want to pull in first, absolutely tie into the business on the business side. What would you guys like waiting for the answers? Or was that some of the on your side of process? How did it go down? >> I'm thinking about our business way. We're talking a little bit about about that about their detective tow hundred that I see before data within. That is a very good solution for that because we need infested toe, have us in orderto get the answers because finally we have a question we have question quite by. The customers are leaving us. Andi. What is data on the data handed in the good in a good way with governor? Dance with data cleaning with the rhyme orders toe. Do that on DH Right now, our concern is Business Section a business offer Because because the solution for the companies that way always, the new problems are coming from the data >> started ten years ago, you probably didn't have a new cluster to solve this problem. Data was maybe maybe isn't a data warehouse that maybe it wasn't And you probably weren't chief data officer back then. You know that roll kind of didn't exist, so a lot has changed in the last ten years. My question is, do you first of all be adjusting your comment on that? But do you see a point in which you could now take remedial action or maybe even automate some of that remedial action using machine intelligence and that data cloud or however else you do it to actually take action on behalf of the brand before humans who are without even human involvement foresee a day? >> Yeah. So just a comment on your thought about the times I've been doing technology for twenty something years, and data science is something has been around, but it's kind of evolved in software development. My thought is, uh, you know, we have these rolls of data scientists, but a lot of the feature engineering Data prep does require traditional people that were devious. And now Dave engineers and variety of skills come together, and that's what we try to do in every project. Just add that comment. A ce faras predicted ahead of time. Like, I think you're trying to say what data? Help me understand >> you. You know, you've got a ninety three percent accuracy. Okay, So I presume you take that, You give it to the business businesses, Okay? Let's maybe, you know, reach out to them, maybe do a little incentive or you know what kind of action in the machines take action on behalf of your brand? Do you foresee a day >> so that my thought is for Clara, Columbia and Carlos? But but obviously this is to me. Remain is the predictive models we build will obviously be deployed. And then it would interact with their digital mobile applications. So in real time, it'll react for the customers. And then obviously, you know, you want to make sure that claro and company trust that and it's making accurate predictions. And that's where a lot more, you know, we have to do some model validation and evaluation of that so they can begin to trust those predictions. I think is where >> I want to get your thoughts on this because you're doing a lot of learnings here. So can you guys each taking minutes playing the key Learnings from this As you go through the process? Certainly in the business side, there's a big imperative to do this. You want to have a business outcome that keeps the users there. But what did you learn? What was some of the learnings? You guys gone from the project? >> They the most important learning front from the company that wass teen in the data that that sound funny, but waiting in an alley, garbage in garbage, out on DH that wass very, very important for other was one of the things that we learn that we need to put cleaning date over the system. Also, the government's many people forget about the governments of the governments of the data on DH. Right now, we're working again with IBM in our government's >> so data quality problem? Yeah, they fight it and you report in to your CEO or the CEO. Seo, your spear of the CIA is OK. That >> is it. That's on another funny history, because because the company the company is right now, I am working for planning. This is saying they were working for planning for the company. >> Business planning? >> Yeah, for business planning. I was coming for an engineer engineering on DH. Right now, I'm working for a planning on trying to make money for the company, and you know that it's an engineer thinking how to get more money for the company I was talking about. So on some kind of analysis ticks, that is us Partial Analytics on I want you seeing that in engineer to know how the network handling how the quality of the network on right now using the same software this acknowledge, to know which is the better point to do sales is is a good combination finally and working. Ralph of planning on my boss, the planning the planet is working for the CEO and I heard about different organizations. Somebody's in Financial City owes in financial or the video for it is different. That depends from the company. Right now, I'm working for planning how to handle things, to make more money for the company, how to tow hundred children. And it is interesting because all the knowledge that I have engineering is perfect to do it >> Well, I would argue that's the job of a CDO is to figure out how to make money with data. Are saying money. Yeah. Absolute number one. Anyway, start there. >> Yeah, The thing we always talked about is really proving value. It starts with that use case. Identify where the real value is and then waken. You know, technology could come in the in the development work after that. So I agree with hundred percent. >> Carlos. Thanks for coming in. Largest telecommunication in Colombia. Great. Great customer reference. Carlo thinking men to explain real quick in a plug in for your data science elite team. What do you guys do? How do you engage? What? Some of the projects you work on Grey >> out. So we were a team of about one hundred data scientists worldwide. We work side by side with clients. In our job is to really understand the problem from end and help in all areas from skills, tools and technique. And we won't prototype in a three agile sprints. We use an agile methodology about six to eight weeks and we tied. It developed a really We call it a proof of value. It's it's not a M v P just yet or or poc But at the end of the day we prove out that we could get a model. We can do some prediction. We get a certain accuracy and it's gonna add value to the >> guys. Just >> It's not a freebie. It actually sorry. I'm sorry. It's not for paint service. It's a freebie is no cough you've got. But I don't like to use >> free way. Don't charge, but >> But it's something that clients could take advantage of if they're interesting problem and maybe eventually going to do some business. >> If you the largest telecommunication provider in the country, to get a freebie and then three keys, You guys dig in because its practitioners, real practitioners with the right skills, working on problems that way. Claro, >> Colombia's team. They were amazing. In Colombia. We had a really good time. Six to eight weeks working on it. You know, a problem on those guys. All loved it, too. They were. They were. Before they knew it. They were coding and python. And are they ready? Knew a lot of this stuff, but they're digging in with the team and became well together. >> This is the secret to modernization of digital transformation, Having sales process is getting co creating together. Absolutely. Guys do a great job, and I think this is a trend will see more of. Of course, the cubes bring you live coverage here in San Francisco at Mosconi. Nor That's where I said it is. They're shutting down the streets for IBM. Think twenty here in San Francisco, more cube coverage after the short break right back.