(gentle music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We got a great remote guest coming in. Joseph Nelson, co-founder and CEO of RoboFlow hot startup in AI, computer vision. Really interesting topic in this wave of AI next gen hitting. Joseph, thanks for coming on this CUBE conversation. >> Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, I love the startup tsunami that's happening here in this wave. RoboFlow, you're in the middle of it. Exciting opportunities, you guys are in the cutting edge. I think computer vision's been talked about more as just as much as the large language models and these foundational models are merging. You're in the middle of it. What's it like right now as a startup and growing in this new wave hitting? >> It's kind of funny, it's, you know, I kind of describe it like sometimes you're in a garden of gnomes. It's like we feel like we've got this giant headstart with hundreds of thousands of people building with computer vision, training their own models, but that's a fraction of what it's going to be in six months, 12 months, 24 months. So, as you described it, a wave is a good way to think about it. And the wave is still building before it gets to its full size. So it's a ton of fun. >> Yeah, I think it's one of the most exciting areas in computer science. I wish I was in my twenties again, because I would be all over this. It's the intersection, there's so many disciplines, right? It's not just tech computer science, it's computer science, it's systems, it's software, it's data. There's so much aperture of things going on around your world. So, I mean, you got to be batting all the students away kind of trying to get hired in there, probably. I can only imagine you're hiring regiment. I'll ask that later, but first talk about what the company is that you're doing. How it's positioned, what's the market you're going after, and what's the origination story? How did you guys get here? How did you just say, hey, want to do this? What was the origination story? What do you do and how did you start the company? >> Yeah, yeah. I'll give you the what we do today and then I'll shift into the origin. RoboFlow builds tools for making the world programmable. Like anything that you see should be read write access if you think about it with a programmer's mind or legible. And computer vision is a technology that enables software to be added to these real world objects that we see. And so any sort of interface, any sort of object, any sort of scene, we can interact with it, we can make it more efficient, we can make it more entertaining by adding the ability for the tools that we use and the software that we write to understand those objects. And at RoboFlow, we've empowered a little over a hundred thousand developers, including those in half the Fortune 100 so far in that mission. Whether that's Walmart understanding the retail in their stores, Cardinal Health understanding the ways that they're helping their patients, or even electric vehicle manufacturers ensuring that they're making the right stuff at the right time. As you mentioned, it's early. Like I think maybe computer vision has touched one, maybe 2% of the whole economy and it'll be like everything in a very short period of time. And so we're focused on enabling that transformation. I think it's it, as far as I think about it, I've been fortunate to start companies before, start, sell these sorts of things. This is the last company I ever wanted to start and I think it will be, should we do it right, the world's largest in riding the wave of bringing together the disparate pieces of that technology. >> What was the motivating point of the formation? Was it, you know, you guys were hanging around? Was there some catalyst? What was the moment where it all kind of came together for you? >> You know what's funny is my co-founder, Brad and I, we were making computer vision apps for making board games more fun to play. So in 2017, Apple released AR kit, augmented reality kit for building augmented reality applications. And Brad and I are both sort of like hacker persona types. We feel like we don't really understand the technology until we build something with it and so we decided that we should make an app that if you point your phone at a Sudoku puzzle, it understands the state of the board and then it kind of magically fills in that experience with all the digits in real time, which totally ruins the game of Sudoku to be clear. But it also just creates this like aha moment of like, oh wow, like the ability for our pocket devices to understand and see the world as good or better than we can is possible. And so, you know, we actually did that as I mentioned in 2017, and the app went viral. It was, you know, top of some subreddits, top of Injure, Reddit, the hacker community as well as Product Hunt really liked it. So it actually won Product Hunt AR app of the year, which was the same year that the Tesla model three won the product of the year. So we joked that we share an award with Elon our shared (indistinct) But frankly, so that was 2017. RoboFlow wasn't incorporated as a business until 2019. And so, you know, when we made Magic Sudoku, I was running a different company at the time, Brad was running a different company at the time, and we kind of just put it out there and were excited by how many people liked it. And we assumed that other curious developers would see this inevitable future of, oh wow, you know. This is much more than just a pedestrian point your phone at a board game. This is everything can be seen and understood and rewritten in a different way. Things like, you know, maybe your fridge. Knowing what ingredients you have and suggesting recipes or auto ordering for you, or we were talking about some retail use cases of automated checkout. Like anything can be seen and observed and we presume that that would kick off a Cambrian explosion of applications. It didn't. So you fast forward to 2019, we said, well we might as well be the guys to start to tackle this sort of problem. And because of our success with board games before, we returned to making more board game solving applications. So we made one that solves Boggle, you know, the four by four word game, we made one that solves chess, you point your phone at a chess board and it understands the state of the board and then can make move recommendations. And each additional board game that we added, we realized that the tooling was really immature. The process of collecting images, knowing which images are actually going to be useful for improving model performance, training those models, deploying those models. And if we really wanted to make the world programmable, developers waiting for us to make an app for their thing of interest is a lot less efficient, less impactful than taking our tool chain and releasing that externally. And so, that's what RoboFlow became. RoboFlow became the internal tools that we used to make these game changing applications readily available. And as you know, when you give developers new tools, they create new billion dollar industries, let alone all sorts of fun hobbyist projects along the way. >> I love that story. Curious, inventive, little radical. Let's break the rules, see how we can push the envelope on the board games. That's how companies get started. It's a great story. I got to ask you, okay, what happens next? Now, okay, you realize this new tooling, but this is like how companies get built. Like they solve their own problem that they had 'cause they realized there's one, but then there has to be a market for it. So you actually guys knew that this was coming around the corner. So okay, you got your hacker mentality, you did that thing, you got the award and now you're like, okay, wow. Were you guys conscious of the wave coming? Was it one of those things where you said, look, if we do this, we solve our own problem, this will be big for everybody. Did you have that moment? Was that in 2019 or was that more of like, it kind of was obvious to you guys? >> Absolutely. I mean Brad puts this pretty effectively where he describes how we lived through the initial internet revolution, but we were kind of too young to really recognize and comprehend what was happening at the time. And then mobile happened and we were working on different companies that were not in the mobile space. And computer vision feels like the wave that we've caught. Like, this is a technology and capability that rewrites how we interact with the world, how everyone will interact with the world. And so we feel we've been kind of lucky this time, right place, right time of every enterprise will have the ability to improve their operations with computer vision. And so we've been very cognizant of the fact that computer vision is one of those groundbreaking technologies that every company will have as a part of their products and services and offerings, and we can provide the tooling to accelerate that future. >> Yeah, and the developer angle, by the way, I love that because I think, you know, as we've been saying in theCUBE all the time, developer's the new defacto standard bodies because what they adopt is pure, you know, meritocracy. And they pick the best. If it's sell service and it's good and it's got open source community around it, its all in. And they'll vote. They'll vote with their code and that is clear. Now I got to ask you, as you look at the market, we were just having this conversation on theCUBE in Barcelona at recent Mobile World Congress, now called MWC, around 5G versus wifi. And the debate was specifically computer vision, like facial recognition. We were talking about how the Cleveland Browns were using facial recognition for people coming into the stadium they were using it for ships in international ports. So the question was 5G versus wifi. My question is what infrastructure or what are the areas that need to be in place to make computer vision work? If you have developers building apps, apps got to run on stuff. So how do you sort that out in your mind? What's your reaction to that? >> A lot of the times when we see applications that need to run in real time and on video, they'll actually run at the edge without internet. And so a lot of our users will actually take their models and run it in a fully offline environment. Now to act on that information, you'll often need to have internet signal at some point 'cause you'll need to know how many people were in the stadium or what shipping crates are in my port at this point in time. You'll need to relay that information somewhere else, which will require connectivity. But actually using the model and creating the insights at the edge does not require internet. I mean we have users that deploy models on underwater submarines just as much as in outer space actually. And those are not very friendly environments to internet, let alone 5g. And so what you do is you use an edge device, like an Nvidia Jetson is common, mobile devices are common. Intel has some strong edge devices, the Movidius family of chips for example. And you use that compute that runs completely offline in real time to process those signals. Now again, what you do with those signals may require connectivity and that becomes a question of the problem you're solving of how soon you need to relay that information to another place. >> So, that's an architectural issue on the infrastructure. If you're a tactical edge war fighter for instance, you might want to have highly available and maybe high availability. I mean, these are words that mean something. You got storage, but it's not at the edge in real time. But you can trickle it back and pull it down. That's management. So that's more of a business by business decision or environment, right? >> That's right, that's right. Yeah. So I mean we can talk through some specifics. So for example, the RoboFlow actually powers the broadcaster that does the tennis ball tracking at Wimbledon. That runs completely at the edge in real time in, you know, technically to track the tennis ball and point the camera, you actually don't need internet. Now they do have internet of course to do the broadcasting and relay the signal and feeds and these sorts of things. And so that's a case where you have both edge deployment of running the model and high availability act on that model. We have other instances where customers will run their models on drones and the drone will go and do a flight and it'll say, you know, this many residential homes are in this given area, or this many cargo containers are in this given shipping yard. Or maybe we saw these environmental considerations of soil erosion along this riverbank. The model in that case can run on the drone during flight without internet, but then you only need internet once the drone lands and you're going to act on that information because for example, if you're doing like a study of soil erosion, you don't need to be real time. You just need to be able to process and make use of that information once the drone finishes its flight. >> Well I can imagine a zillion use cases. I heard of a use case interview at a company that does computer vision to help people see if anyone's jumping the fence on their company. Like, they know what a body looks like climbing a fence and they can spot it. Pretty easy use case compared to probably some of the other things, but this is the horizontal use cases, its so many use cases. So how do you guys talk to the marketplace when you say, hey, we have generative AI for commuter vision. You might know language models that's completely different animal because vision's like the world, right? So you got a lot more to do. What's the difference? How do you explain that to customers? What can I build and what's their reaction? >> Because we're such a developer centric company, developers are usually creative and show you the ways that they want to take advantage of new technologies. I mean, we've had people use things for identifying conveyor belt debris, doing gas leak detection, measuring the size of fish, airplane maintenance. We even had someone that like a hobby use case where they did like a specific sushi identifier. I dunno if you know this, but there's a specific type of whitefish that if you grew up in the western hemisphere and you eat it in the eastern hemisphere, you get very sick. And so there was someone that made an app that tells you if you happen to have that fish in the sushi that you're eating. But security camera analysis, transportation flows, plant disease detection, really, you know, smarter cities. We have people that are doing curb management identifying, and a lot of these use cases, the fantastic thing about building tools for developers is they're a creative bunch and they have these ideas that if you and I sat down for 15 minutes and said, let's guess every way computer vision can be used, we would need weeks to list all the example use cases. >> We'd miss everything. >> And we'd miss. And so having the community show us the ways that they're using computer vision is impactful. Now that said, there are of course commercial industries that have discovered the value and been able to be out of the gate. And that's where we have the Fortune 100 customers, like we do. Like the retail customers in the Walmart sector, healthcare providers like Medtronic, or vehicle manufacturers like Rivian who all have very difficult either supply chain, quality assurance, in stock, out of stock, anti-theft protection considerations that require successfully making sense of the real world. >> Let me ask you a question. This is maybe a little bit in the weeds, but it's more developer focused. What are some of the developer profiles that you're seeing right now in terms of low-hanging fruit applications? And can you talk about the academic impact? Because I imagine if I was in school right now, I'd be all over it. Are you seeing Master's thesis' being worked on with some of your stuff? Is the uptake in both areas of younger pre-graduates? And then inside the workforce, What are some of the devs like? Can you share just either what their makeup is, what they work on, give a little insight into the devs you're working with. >> Leading developers that want to be on state-of-the-art technology build with RoboFlow because they know they can use the best in class open source. They know that they can get the most out of their data. They know that they can deploy extremely quickly. That's true among students as you mentioned, just as much as as industries. So we welcome students and I mean, we have research grants that will regularly support for people to publish. I mean we actually have a channel inside our internal slack where every day, more student publications that cite building with RoboFlow pop up. And so, that helps inspire some of the use cases. Now what's interesting is that the use case is relatively, you know, useful or applicable for the business or the student. In other words, if a student does a thesis on how to do, we'll say like shingle damage detection from satellite imagery and they're just doing that as a master's thesis, in fact most insurance businesses would be interested in that sort of application. So, that's kind of how we see uptick and adoption both among researchers who want to be on the cutting edge and publish, both with RoboFlow and making use of open source tools in tandem with the tool that we provide, just as much as industry. And you know, I'm a big believer in the philosophy that kind of like what the hackers are doing nights and weekends, the Fortune 500 are doing in a pretty short order period of time and we're experiencing that transition. Computer vision used to be, you know, kind of like a PhD, multi-year investment endeavor. And now with some of the tooling that we're working on in open source technologies and the compute that's available, these science fiction ideas are possible in an afternoon. And so you have this idea of maybe doing asset management or the aerial observation of your shingles or things like this. You have a few hundred images and you can de-risk whether that's possible for your business today. So there's pretty broad-based adoption among both researchers that want to be on the state of the art, as much as companies that want to reduce the time to value. >> You know, Joseph, you guys and your partner have got a great front row seat, ground floor, presented creation wave here. I'm seeing a pattern emerging from all my conversations on theCUBE with founders that are successful, like yourselves, that there's two kind of real things going on. You got the enterprises grabbing the products and retrofitting into their legacy and rebuilding their business. And then you have startups coming out of the woodwork. Young, seeing greenfield or pick a specific niche or focus and making that the signature lever to move the market. >> That's right. >> So can you share your thoughts on the startup scene, other founders out there and talk about that? And then I have a couple questions for like the enterprises, the old school, the existing legacy. Little slower, but the startups are moving fast. What are some of the things you're seeing as startups are emerging in this field? >> I think you make a great point that independent of RoboFlow, very successful, especially developer focused businesses, kind of have three customer types. You have the startups and maybe like series A, series B startups that you're building a product as fast as you can to keep up with them, and they're really moving just as fast as as you are and pulling the product out at you for things that they need. The second segment that you have might be, call it SMB but not enterprise, who are able to purchase and aren't, you know, as fast of moving, but are stable and getting value and able to get to production. And then the third type is enterprise, and that's where you have typically larger contract value sizes, slower moving in terms of adoption and feedback for your product. And I think what you see is that successful companies balance having those three customer personas because you have the small startups, small fast moving upstarts that are discerning buyers who know the market and elect to build on tooling that is best in class. And so you basically kind of pass the smell test of companies who are quite discerning in their purchases, plus are moving so quick they're pulling their product out of you. Concurrently, you have a product that's enterprise ready to service the scalability, availability, and trust of enterprise buyers. And that's ultimately where a lot of companies will see tremendous commercial success. I mean I remember seeing the Twilio IPO, Uber being like a full 20% of their revenue, right? And so there's this very common pattern where you have the ability to find some of those upstarts that you make bets on, like the next Ubers of the world, the smaller companies that continue to get developed with the product and then the enterprise whom allows you to really fund the commercial success of the business, and validate the size of the opportunity in market that's being creative. >> It's interesting, there's so many things happening there. It's like, in a way it's a new category, but it's not a new category. It becomes a new category because of the capabilities, right? So, it's really interesting, 'cause that's what you're talking about is a category, creating. >> I think developer tools. So people often talk about B to B and B to C businesses. I think developer tools are in some ways a third way. I mean ultimately they're B to B, you're selling to other businesses and that's where your revenue's coming from. However, you look kind of like a B to C company in the ways that you measure product adoption and kind of go to market. In other words, you know, we're often tracking the leading indicators of commercial success in the form of usage, adoption, retention. Really consumer app, traditionally based metrics of how to know you're building the right stuff, and that's what product led growth companies do. And then you ultimately have commercial traction in a B to B way. And I think that that actually kind of looks like a third thing, right? Like you can do these sort of funny zany marketing examples that you might see historically from consumer businesses, but yet you ultimately make your money from the enterprise who has these de-risked high value problems you can solve for them. And I selfishly think that that's the best of both worlds because I don't have to be like Evan Spiegel, guessing the next consumer trend or maybe creating the next consumer trend and catching lightning in a bottle over and over again on the consumer side. But I still get to have fun in our marketing and make sort of fun, like we're launching the world's largest game of rock paper scissors being played with computer vision, right? Like that's sort of like a fun thing you can do, but then you can concurrently have the commercial validation and customers telling you the things that they need to be built for them next to solve commercial pain points for them. So I really do think that you're right by calling this a new category and it really is the best of both worlds. >> It's a great call out, it's a great call out. In fact, I always juggle with the VC. I'm like, it's so easy. Your job is so easy to pick the winners. What are you talking about its so easy? I go, just watch what the developers jump on. And it's not about who started, it could be someone in the dorm room to the boardroom person. You don't know because that B to C, the C, it's B to D you know? You know it's developer 'cause that's a human right? That's a consumer of the tool which influences the business that never was there before. So I think this direct business model evolution, whether it's media going direct or going direct to the developers rather than going to a gatekeeper, this is the reality. >> That's right. >> Well I got to ask you while we got some time left to describe, I want to get into this topic of multi-modality, okay? And can you describe what that means in computer vision? And what's the state of the growth of that portion of this piece? >> Multi modality refers to using multiple traditionally siloed problem types, meaning text, image, video, audio. So you could treat an audio problem as only processing audio signal. That is not multimodal, but you could use the audio signal at the same time as a video feed. Now you're talking about multi modality. In computer vision, multi modality is predominantly happening with images and text. And one of the biggest releases in this space is actually two years old now, was clip, contrastive language image pre-training, which took 400 million image text pairs and basically instead of previously when you do classification, you basically map every single image to a single class, right? Like here's a bunch of images of chairs, here's a bunch of images of dogs. What clip did is used, you can think about it like, the class for an image being the Instagram caption for the image. So it's not one single thing. And by training on understanding the corpora, you basically see which words, which concepts are associated with which pixels. And this opens up the aperture for the types of problems and generalizability of models. So what does this mean? This means that you can get to value more quickly from an existing trained model, or at least validate that what you want to tackle with a computer vision, you can get there more quickly. It also opens up the, I mean. Clip has been the bedrock of some of the generative image techniques that have come to bear, just as much as some of the LLMs. And increasingly we're going to see more and more of multi modality being a theme simply because at its core, you're including more context into what you're trying to understand about the world. I mean, in its most basic sense, you could ask yourself, if I have an image, can I know more about that image with just the pixels? Or if I have the image and the sound of when that image was captured or it had someone describe what they see in that image when the image was captured, which one's going to be able to get you more signal? And so multi modality helps expand the ability for us to understand signal processing. >> Awesome. And can you just real quick, define clip for the folks that don't know what that means? >> Yeah. Clip is a model architecture, it's an acronym for contrastive language image pre-training and like, you know, model architectures that have come before it captures the almost like, models are kind of like brands. So I guess it's a brand of a model where you've done these 400 million image text pairs to match up which visual concepts are associated with which text concepts. And there have been new releases of clip, just at bigger sizes of bigger encoding's, of longer strings of texture, or larger image windows. But it's been a really exciting advancement that OpenAI released in January, 2021. >> All right, well great stuff. We got a couple minutes left. Just I want to get into more of a company-specific question around culture. All startups have, you know, some sort of cultural vibe. You know, Intel has Moore's law doubles every whatever, six months. What's your culture like at RoboFlow? I mean, if you had to describe that culture, obviously love the hacking story, you and your partner with the games going number one on Product Hunt next to Elon and Tesla and then hey, we should start a company two years later. That's kind of like a curious, inventing, building, hard charging, but laid back. That's my take. How would you describe the culture? >> I think that you're right. The culture that we have is one of shipping, making things. So every week each team shares what they did for our customers on a weekly basis. And we have such a strong emphasis on being better week over week that those sorts of things compound. So one big emphasis in our culture is getting things done, shipping, doing things for our customers. The second is we're an incredibly transparent place to work. For example, how we think about giving decisions, where we're progressing against our goals, what problems are biggest and most important for the company is all open information for those that are inside the company to know and progress against. The third thing that I'd use to describe our culture is one that thrives with autonomy. So RoboFlow has a number of individuals who have founded companies before, some of which have sold their businesses for a hundred million plus upon exit. And the way that we've been able to attract talent like that is because the problems that we're tackling are so immense, yet individuals are able to charge at it with the way that they think is best. And this is what pairs well with transparency. If you have a strong sense of what the company's goals are, how we're progressing against it, and you have this ownership mentality of what can I do to change or drive progress against that given outcome, then you create a really healthy pairing of, okay cool, here's where the company's progressing. Here's where things are going really well, here's the places that we most need to improve and work on. And if you're inside that company as someone who has a preponderance to be a self-starter and even a history of building entire functions or companies yourself, then you're going to be a place where you can really thrive. You have the inputs of the things where we need to work on to progress the company's goals. And you have the background of someone that is just necessarily a fast moving and ambitious type of individual. So I think the best way to describe it is a transparent place with autonomy and an emphasis on getting things done. >> Getting shit done as they say. Getting stuff done. Great stuff. Hey, final question. Put a plug out there for the company. What are you going to hire? What's your pipeline look like for people? What jobs are open? I'm sure you got hiring all around. Give a quick plug for the company what you're looking for. >> I appreciate you asking. Basically you're either building the product or helping customers be successful with the product. So in the building product category, we have platform engineering roles, machine learning engineering roles, and we're solving some of the hardest and most impactful problems of bringing such a groundbreaking technology to the masses. And so it's a great place to be where you can kind of be your own user as an engineer. And then if you're enabling people to be successful with the products, I mean you're working in a place where there's already such a strong community around it and you can help shape, foster, cultivate, activate, and drive commercial success in that community. So those are roles that tend themselves to being those that build the product for developer advocacy, those that are account executives that are enabling our customers to realize commercial success, and even hybrid roles like we call it field engineering, where you are a technical resource to drive success within customer accounts. And so all this is listed on roboflow.com/careers. And one thing that I actually kind of want to mention John that's kind of novel about the thing that's working at RoboFlow. So there's been a lot of discussion around remote companies and there's been a lot of discussion around in-person companies and do you need to be in the office? And one thing that we've kind of recognized is you can actually chart a third way. You can create a third way which we call satellite, which basically means people can work from where they most like to work and there's clusters of people, regular onsite's. And at RoboFlow everyone gets, for example, $2,500 a year that they can use to spend on visiting coworkers. And so what's sort of organically happened is team numbers have started to pull together these resources and rent out like, lavish Airbnbs for like a week and then everyone kind of like descends in and works together for a week and makes and creates things. And we call this lighthouses because you know, a lighthouse kind of brings ships into harbor and we have an emphasis on shipping. >> Yeah, quality people that are creative and doers and builders. You give 'em some cash and let the self-governing begin, you know? And like, creativity goes through the roof. It's a great story. I think that sums up the culture right there, Joseph. Thanks for sharing that and thanks for this great conversation. I really appreciate it and it's very inspiring. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, John. >> Joseph Nelson, co-founder and CEO of RoboFlow. Hot company, great culture in the right place in a hot area, computer vision. This is going to explode in value. The edge is exploding. More use cases, more development, and developers are driving the change. Check out RoboFlow. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

(gentle music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's virtual program, covering VMware Explorer, 2022. The first time since 2019 that the VMware ecosystem is gathered in person. But in the post isolation economy, hybrid is the new format, cube plus digital, we call it. And so we're really happy to welcome Cal Al-Dhubaib who's the founder and CEO and AI strategist of Pandata. And Jonathan Seckler back in theCUBE, the senior director of product marketing at Dell Technologies. Guys, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks a lot for having us. >> Yeah, thank you >> Cal, Pandata, cool name, what's it all about? >> Thanks for asking. Really excited to share our story. I'm a data scientist by training and I'm based here in Cleveland, Ohio. And Pandata is a company that helps organizations design and develop machine learning and AI technology. And when I started this here in Cleveland six years ago, I had people react to me with, what? So we help demystify AI and make it practical. And we specifically focus on trustworthy AI. So we work a lot in regulated industries like healthcare. And we help organizations navigate the complexities of building machine learning and AI technology when data's hard to work with, when there's risk on the potential outcomes, or high cost in the consequences. And that's what we do every day. >> Yeah, yeah timing is great given all the focus on privacy and what you're seeing with big tech and public policy, so we're going to get into that. Jonathan, I understand you guys got some hard news. What's your story around AI and AutoML? Share that with us. >> Yeah, thanks. So having the opportunity to speak with Cal today is really important because one of the hardest things that we find that our customers have is making that transition of experimenting with AI to making it really useful in real life. >> What is the tech underneath that? Are we talking VxRail here? Are you're talking servers? What do you got? >> Yeah, absolutely. So the Dell validated design for AI is a reference framework that is based on the optimized set of hardware for a given outcome. That includes it could be VxRail, VMware, vSphere and Nvidia GPUs and Nvidia software to make all of that happen. And for today, what we're working with is H2O.ai's solution to develop automatic machine learning. So take just that one more step to make it easier for customers to bring AI into production. >> Cool. >> So it's a full stack of software that includes automated machine learning, it includes NVIDIA's AI enterprise for deployment and development, and it's all built on an engineering validated set of hardware, including servers and storage and whatever else you need >> AI out of the box, I don't have to worry about cobbling it all together. >> Exactly. >> Cal, I want to come back to this trusted AI notion. A lot of people don't trust AI just by the very nature of it. I think about, okay, well how does it know it's a cat? And then you can never explain, it says black box. And so I'm like, what are they do with my data? And you mentioned healthcare, financial services, the government, they know everything about me. I just had to get a real ID and Massachusetts, I had to give all my data away. I don't trust it. So what is trusted AI? >> Well, so let me take a step back and talk about sobering statistics. There's a lot of different sources that report on this, but anywhere you look, you'll hear somewhere between 80 to 90% of AI projects fail to yield a return. That's pretty scary, that's a disappointing industry. And why is that? AI is hard. Versus traditional software, you're programming rules hard and fast. If I click this button, I expect A, B, C to happen. And we're talking about recognizing and reacting to patterns. It's not, will it be wrong? It's, when it's wrong, how wrong will it be? And what are it cost to accept related to that? So zooming back in on this lens of trustworthy AI, much of the last 10 years the development in AI has looked like this. Let's get the data, let's race to build the warehouses, okay we did that, no problem. Next was race to build the algorithms. Can we build more sophisticated models? Can we work with things like documents and images? And it used to be the exclusive domain of deep tech companies. You'd have to have teams of teams building the software, building the infrastructure, working on very specific components in this pipeline. And now we have this explosion of technologies, very much like what Jonathan was talking about with validated designs. So it removes the complexities of the infrastructure, it removes the complexities of being able to access the right data. And we have a ton of modeling capabilities and tools out there, so we can build a lot of things. Now, this is when we start to encounter risk in machine learning and AI. If you think about the models that are being used to replicate or learn from language like GPT-3 to create new content, it's training data set is everything that's on the internet. And if you haven't been on the internet recently, it's not all good. So how do you go about building technology to recognize specific patterns, pick up patterns that are desirable, and avoid unintended consequences? And no one's immune to this. So the discipline of trustworthy AI is building models that are easier to interrogate, that are useful for humans, and that minimize the risk of unintended consequences. >> I would add too, one of the good things about the Pandata solution is how it tries to enforce fairness and transparency in the models. We've done some studies recently with IDC, where we've tried to compare leaders in AI technology versus those who are just getting started. And I have to say, one of the biggest differences between a leader in AI and the rest of us is often that the leaders have a policy in place to deal with the risks and the ethics of using data through some kind of machine oriented model. And it's a really important part of making AI usable for the masses. >> You certainly hear a lot about, AI ultimately, there's algorithms which are built by humans. Although of course, there's algorithms to build algorithms, we know that today. >> Right, exactly. >> But humans are biased, there's inherent bias, and so this is a big problem. Obviously Dell, you have a giant observation space in terms of customers. But I wonder, Cal, if you can share with us how you're working with your customers at Pandata? What kind of customers are you working with? What are they asking? What problems are they asking you to solve? And how does it manifest itself? >> So when I like to talk about AI and where it's useful, it usually has to do with taking a repetitive task that humans are tasked with, but they're starting to act more like machines than humans. There's not much creativity in the process, it's handling something that's fairly routine, and it ends up being a bottleneck to scaling. And just a year ago even, we'd have to start approaching our clients with conversations around trustworthy AI, and now they're starting to approach us. Really example, this actually just happened earlier today, we're partnering with one of our clients that basically scans medical claims from insurance providers. And what they're trying to do is identify members that qualify for certain government subsidies. And this isn't as straightforward as it seems because there's a lot of complexities in how the rules are implemented, how judges look at these cases. Long story short, we help them build machine learning to identify these patients that qualify. And a question that comes up, and that we're starting to hear from the insurance companies they serve is how do you go about making sure that your decisions are fair and you're not selecting certain groups of individuals over others to get this assistance? And so clients are starting to wise up to that and ask questions. Other things that we've done include identifying potential private health information that's contained in medical images so that you can create curated research data sets. We've helped organizations identify anomalies in cybersecurity logs. And go from an exploration space of billions of eventual events to what are the top 100 that I should look at today? And so it's all about, how do you find these routine processes that humans are bottlenecked from getting to, we're starting to act more like machines and insert a little bit of outer recognition intelligence to get them to spend more time on the creative side. >> Can you talk a little bit more about how? A lot of people talk about augmented AI. AI is amazing. My daughter the other day was, I'm sure as an AI expert, you've seen it, where the machine actually creates standup comedy which it's so hilarious because it is and it isn't. Some of the jokes are actually really funny. Some of them are so funny 'cause they're not funny and they're weird. So it really underscored the gap. And so how do you do it? Is it augmented? Is it you're focusing on the mundane things that you want to take humans out of the loop? Explain how. >> So there's this great Wall Street Journal article by Jennifer Strong that she published I think four years ago now. And she says, "For AI to become more useful, it needs to become more boring." And I really truly believe in that. So you hear about these cutting edge use cases. And there's certainly some room for these generative AI applications inspiring new designs, inspiring new approaches. But the reality is, most successful use cases that we encounter in our business have to do with augmenting human decisions. How do you make arriving at a decision easier? How do you prioritize from millions of options, hundreds of thousands of options down to three or four that a human can then take the last stretch and really consider or think about? So a really cool story, I've been playing around with DALL.E 2. And for those of you who haven't heard, it's this algorithm that can create images from props. And they're just painting I really wish I had bought when I was in Paris a few years ago. And I gave it a description, skyline of the Sacre-Coeur Church in Montmartre with pink and white hues. And it came up with a handful of examples that I can now go take to an artist and say paint me this. So at the end of the day, automation, it's not really, yes, there's certain applications where you really are truly getting to that automated AI in action. But in my experience, most of the use cases have to do with using AI to make humans more effective, more creative, more valuable. >> I'd also add, I think Cal, is that the opportunity to make AI real here is to automate these things and simplify the languages so that can get what we call citizen data scientists out there. I say ordinary, ordinary employees or people who are at the front line of making these decisions, working with the data directly. We've done this with customers who have done this on farms, where the growers are able to use AI to monitor and to manage the yield of crops. I think some of the other examples that you had mentioned just recently Cal I think are great. The other examples is where you can make this technology available to anyone. And maybe that's part of the message of making it boring, it's making it so simple that any of us can use it. >> I love that. John Furrier likes to say that traditionally in IT, we solve complexity with more complexity. So anything that simplifies things is goodness. So how do you use automated machine learning at Pandata? Where does that fit in here? >> So really excited that the connection here through H2O that Jonathan had mentioned earlier. So H2O.ai is one of the leading AutoML platforms. And what's really cool is if you think about the traditional way you would approach machine learning, is you need to have data scientists. These patterns might exist in documents or images or boring old spreadsheets. And the way you'd approach this is, okay, get these expensive data scientists, and 80% of what they do is clean up the data. And I'm yet to encounter a situation where there isn't cleaning data. Now, I'll get through the cleaning up the data step, you actually have to consider, all right, am I working with language? Am I working with financial forecasts? What are the statistical modeling approaches I want to use? And there's a lot of creativity involved in that. And you have to set up a whole experiment, and that takes a lot of time and effort. And then you might test one, two or three models because you know to use those or those are the go to for this type of problem. And you see which one performs best and you iterate from there. The AutoML framework basically allows you to cut through all of that. It can reduce the amount of time you're spending on those steps to 1/10 of the time. You're able to very quickly profile data, understand anomalies, understand what data you want to work with, what data you don't want to work with. And then when it comes to the modeling steps, instead of iterating through three or four AutoML is throwing the whole kitchen sink at it. Anything that's appropriate to the task, maybe you're trying to predict a category or label something, maybe you're trying to predict a value like a financial forecast or even generate test. And it tests all of the models that it has at its disposal that are appropriate to the task and says, here are the top 10. You can use features like let me make this more explainable, let me make the model more accurate. I don't necessarily care about interrogating the results because the risk here is low, I want to a model that predicts things with a higher accuracy. So you can use these dials instead of having to approach it from a development perspective. You can approach it from more of an experimental mindset. So you still need that expertise, you still need to understand what you're looking at, but it makes it really quick. And so you're not spending all that expensive data science time cleaning up data. >> Makes sense. Last question, so Cal, obviously you guys go deep into AI, Jonathan Dell works with every customer on the planet, all sizes, all industries. So what are you hearing and doing with customers that are best practices that you can share for people that want to get into it, that are concerned about AI, they want to simplify it? What would you tell them? Go ahead, Cal. >> Okay, you go first, Cal. >> And Jonathan, you're going to bring us home. >> Sure. >> This sounds good. So as far as where people get scared, I see two sides of it. One, our data's not clean enough, not enough quality, I'm going to stay away from this. So one, I combat that with, you've got to experiment, you got to iterate, And that's the only way your data's going to improve. Two, there's organizations that worry too much about managing the risk. We don't have the data science expertise that can help us uncover potential biases we have. We are now entering a new stage of AI development and machine learning development, And I use those terms interchangeably anymore. I know some folks will differentiate between them. But machine learning is the discipline driving most of the advances. The toolkits that we have at our disposal to quickly profile and manage and mitigate against the risk that data can bring to the table is really giving organizations more comfort, should give organizations more comfort to start to build mission critical applications. The thing that I would encourage organizations to look for, is organizations that put trustworthy AI, ethical AI first as a consideration, not as an afterthought or not as a we're going to sweep this on the carpet. When you're intentional with that, when you bring that up front and you make it a part of your design, it sets you up for success. And we saw this when GDPR changed the IT world a few years ago. Organizations that built for privacy first to begin with, adapting to GDPR was relatively straightforward. Organizations that made that an afterthought or had that as an afterthought, it was a huge lift, a huge cost to adapt and adjust to those changes. >> Great example. All right, John, I said bring us home, put a bow on this. >> Last bit. So I think beyond the mechanics of how to make a AI better and more workable, one of the big challenges with the AI is this concern that you're going to isolate and spend too much effort and dollars on the infrastructure itself. And that's one of the benefits that Dell brings to the table here with validated designs. Is that our AI validated design is built on a VMware vSphere architecture. So your backup, your migration, all of the management and the operational tools that IT is most comfortable with can be used to maintain and develop and deploy artificial intelligence projects without having to create unique infrastructure, unique stacks of hardware, and then which potentially isolates the data, potentially makes things unavailable to the rest of the organization. So when you run it all in a VMware environment, that means you can put it in the cloud, you can put it in your data center. Just really makes it easier for IT to build AI into their everyday process >> Silo busting. All right, guys, thanks Cal, John. I really appreciate you guys coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, it's been a great time, thanks. >> All right. And thank you for watching theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022. Keep it right there for more action from the show floor with myself, Dave Velante, John Furrier, Lisa Martin and David Nicholson, keep it right there. (gentle music)

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by, >>Hey, welcome to the cubes coverage of forward for UI path forward for live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with David. David's great to be back sitting at an anchor desk. >>Yeah, good to see. This is my first show. Since June, we were at mobile world Congress and I've been, I've been doing a number of shows where they'll they'll the host myself would be there with some guests as a pre-record to some simulive show, but this is real live awesome to be working with you again. So we did live last week at a DC public sector summit for AWS next week's cube con. So it's three in a row. So maybe it's a trend. It we'll see. >>Well, the thing that was really surprising was that we were in the keynote briefly this morning. It was standing room only. There are a lot of people at this conference. They think they were expecting about 2000. And to me it looked like there were at least out, if not more >>Funny leases, most companies, if not virtually all of them, except for a handful are canceling physical events. And because they're saying their customers aren't traveling, but I've talked to over a dozen customers here. I just got here yesterday afternoon. I've talked about 10 or 12 customers who are here. They're flying, they're traveling. And we're going to dig into a lot of that. Today. We have Uber coming on the program. We have applied materials coming on, blue cross blue shield. I'm really happy that UI path decided to, to put a number of customers on the cubes so we can test what we're hearing, you know, in the marketing. >>Well, one of the first things that they said in the keynote this morning was we want to hear from our customers, what are we doing? Right? What are we not doing enough of? What do you want more? They've got eight over 8,000 customers. You mentioned some of the ones that are going to be on the program this week, including Chevron and Merck who are on today. And 70% of their revenue comes from existing customers. This is a company that has, is really kind of a use case in land and expand. Yeah. >>And I think you're going to see this trend. You know what it's like with COVID it's day to day, month to month, quarter to quarter, you're trying to figure out, okay, what's the right model. Clearly hybrid is the, is the new abnormal, if you will. And I think we're going to see is, is you're going to have VIP events and this is kind of a VIP event. It's not, you know, 5,000 people, it's kind of 1500, 2000, but there are a lot of VIP customers here. Obviously the partners here. So what they did before the show is they had a partner summit. It was packed. You talk about standing room only. They had a healthcare summit, it was packed. And so they have these little VIP sections, little events within the event, and then they broadcast it out to a wider audience. And I think that's going to be the normal one. I think you're going to see CEO's in a room, maybe in a hotel and in wherever in Manhattan or, or San Francisco. And then they'll broadcast out to that wider audience. I think people are learning how to build better hybrid events, but by the way, this is all new. As I said, hybrid events, I meant virtual events. And now they're learning to learn how to build hybrid events. And that's a nother new process. >>It is, but it's also exciting to see the traction, the momentum that is here from, uh, you know, they, and they IPO at about what six months ago, you covered that your breaking analysis that you did right before the IPO and the breaking analysis that you did last last week, I believe really fascinating. Interesting acceleration is, is a theme. We're going to talk about the acceleration of automation and the momentum that the pandemic is driving. But this is a company that's accelerated everything. As you said on your breaking analysis, lightning in a bottle, this is a company that went global very quickly. We're seeing them as some of the leading companies. We can probably count on one hand who are actually coming back to these hybrid events and say, we want to be with our customers again and learn from you what you're doing, what's going on. And we've got a lot of news to share. >>Yeah, we've been covering UI path since 2015. And the piece we wrote back at IPO was, uh, you, you bypass long, strange trip to IPO and it, and it was strange. And that they kind of hung out as a software development shop for the better part of a decade. And then just listening and learning, writing code, they were kind of geeks writing code and loved it. And then they realized, wow, we have something here we can. And they, their uniqueness is they have a computer vision technology. They have the ability to sort of infer what a form looks like and then actually populated. And the thing that UI path did that was different was they made sound, sounds crazy. They made the product really simple to use, right? And we know simplicity works. We see that with best example in storage, storage, complicated business, pure storage, right? >>They pop it in. You kind of Veeam is another one. It just works. And so they, they created a freemium model that made it easy for departments to start small, you know, maybe for 15, 20, 20 $5,000, you could get a software robot and then it would do things like whatever it, it would pull data out of one spreadsheet, put it into another pull date out of one, SAS populated and people then realize, wow, I am saving a ton of time. I can do some other things. I'm more productive. And other people looking over her shoulder would say, Hey, what is that you're using? Can I get that? And then all of a sudden, like you said, lightning in a bottle and it exploded, not a conventional Silicon valley, you know, funded company, even though they got a lot of funding, they got, they raised close to a billion dollars before they went public. Um, and now they're public went public in April. The stock has been sort of trending downward for the last four or five months, a little bit off on sympathy, but you know, >>What do you think that is? They had such momentum going into it. They clearly have a lot of momentum here. 8,000 plus customers. They've got over 1200 customers with an ARR above a hundred thousand. Why do you think the stock is? >>So I think a couple of things, at least, I think first of all, the street doesn't fully understand this company. You know, Daniel DNAs has never been the CEO of a public company. He's not from Silicon valley. He's, you know, from, from, uh, Eastern Europe and they don't know him that well, uh, they've got, you know, the very, very capable, and so they're educating the streets. So there's a comfort level there. They're looking at their growth and they're inferring from their billings that their growth is, is declining. The new growth from new customers in particular. But there, the ARR is still growing at 60% annually. They also guided a little bit conservatively for the street. And the other thing is they've been profitable. I'm not if a cashflow basis. And then they guided that they would actually be, be somewhat unprofitable in the coming quarter. >>People didn't like that. They don't care about profits until you're somewhat profitable. And then you say, Hey, we're going to be a little less profitable, but of course they get events like this. So that I think it's just a matter of the street, getting to understand them. And I will say this, and you know, this, they're getting a lot of business from their existing customers. We saw this with snowflake, uh, Cleveland research, put out a note saying, oh, Snowflake's new customer growth is slowing. We published research from our friends at ETR that showed well, they're getting a lot of business from existing customers that sort of fat middle is really where they're starting to mind. And you can see this with UI path. The lifetime value of the customers is just growing and growing and growing. And so I'm not as concerned. The stocks, you know, we don't, we don't, we're not the stock advisors, but the stock is just over 50. >>Now it wasn't 90 at one point. So it's got a valuation of somewhere around 26 billion, which was closer to 50 billion. So who knows, maybe this is a buying opportunity. There's not a lot of data. So the technical analyst are saying, well, we really don't know where it's going to cook it down to 30. It could go, could go rock it up from here. I think the point Lisa is, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint, it's a long-term play. And these guys are the leaders. And they're, I think moving away from the pack. And the last thing is this concern about competition from Microsoft who bought a company last year to really in earnest, get into this business. And everybody's afraid of Microsoft. >>Well, one thing that we know that's growing considerably is the total addressable market pre pandemic. It was about 30 billion. It's now north of 60 billion. We've seen the pandemic accelerate a lot of things. Talk to me a little bit about automation as its role in digital transformation from your side. >>Yeah, I think, you know, this is again, it's a really good question because when you look at these total available market numbers, the way that companies virtually all companies, whether it's Dell or Cisco or UI path or anybody, they take data from like Gartner and IDC and they say, okay, these are the markets that we kind of play in, and this is how it's growing. What's really happening. Lisa's all these markets are converging because of digital. So to your question, it's a di what's a digital business. A digital business is a data business and they differentiate by the way in which they use data. And if you're not a digital business during the pandemic, you're out of business. So all of these markets, cloud machine intelligence, AI automation, orchestra, uh, container orchestration, container platforms, they're all coming together as one, it's all being built in as one. >>So 60 billion up from 30 billion, I think it could be a hundred billion. I think, you know, they threw out a stat today that 2% of processes are automated, uh, says to me that, I mean, anything digital is going to be automated. So that is hundreds of billions of dollars of, of market opportunity, right? And so there's no shortage of market opportunity for this company. And that's why, by the way, everybody's entering it. We saw SAP make some acquisitions. We S we see in for talking about it, uh, uh, Salesforce service now, and these SAS companies are all saying, Hey, we can own the automation piece within our stack, what UI path is doing. And the reason why I liked their strategy better is they're a specialist in automation horizontally across all these software stacks. And that's really why their Tam I think is, >>And that gives them quite a big differentiator that horizontal play >>It does. I think I see. So I don't see, I think there's a continuum and I think you got Microsoft over here with Azure and personal productivity in their cloud. And then you've got the pure plays, which are really focusing on a broader automation agenda. That's UI path, that's automation, anywhere I would put blue prism in that category, the blueprints, and by the way, is getting, getting acquired by Vista. And they're gonna merge them with Tipco company that, you know, quite a bit about, and that's an integration play. So that's kind of interesting. I would put them as more of a horizontal play. And then in the fat middle, you've got SAP and in four, and, and, you know, IBM's getting into the game, although they, I think they OEM from a lot of different companies and all those other companies I mentioned before, they're kind of the walled gardens. >>And so I think that UI path is less of a head-to-head competitor with Microsoft today anyway, than it is for instance, with automation anywhere. And it's, and it's growing faster than automation, anywhere from what we can tell. And it's, it's still leader in that horizontal play. You know, you never discount Microsoft, but I think just like for instance, Okta is a specialist in, in, in access identity, access management and privileged, privileged access management and access government, they compete with Microsoft's single sign on, right. But they're a horizontal play. So there's plenty of room for, for both in my view. Anyway, >>Some of the things that you can you think that we're going to hear, you know, seem to be at this inflection point where UI path wants to move away from being an RPA point solution to an enterprise automation platform they made, they made some announcements about vision a couple of years ago at the last in-person event. What are some of the things you think that are going to be announced in the next couple? >>That's a really good question. I'm glad you picked up on that because they started as a point tool essentially. And then they realized, wow, if we're really going to grow as a company, we have to expand that. So they made acquisite, they've been making acquisitions. One of the key acquisitions they made was a company called process gold. So it's funny when we've done previous, uh, RPA events, I've said RPA in its early days was kind of scripts paving the cow path, meaning you're taking existing processes of saying, okay, we're just going to automate them where UI path is headed in others is they're looking across the enterprise and how do we go end to end? How do we take a broader automation agenda and drive automation throughout the entire organization? And I think that's a lot of what we're going to hear from today. We heard that from executives, APAR co co Kaylon, and, um, and, and, and Ted Kumar talked about their engineering and their product vision. And I think you iPad test to show that that's actually what's happening with customers and they have the portfolio to deliver >>Well, those two executives that you just mentioned, and a lot of others are going to be on the program. The next couple of days jam packed. Dave, I'm looking forward to unpacking what UI path is doing. The acceleration in the automation markets. We're going to have a fun couple of days. >>Thanks for coming on here for David >>Lente. I'm Lisa Martin. We're going to be back live from Las Vegas at UI path forward for in just a minute.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by, >>Hey, welcome to the cubes coverage of forward for UI path forward for live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with David. David's great to be back sitting at an anchor desk. >>Yeah, good to see. This is my first show. Since June, we were at mobile world Congress and I've been, I've been doing a number of shows where they'll they'll the host myself would be there with some guests as a pre-record to some simulive show, but this is real live awesome to be working with you again. So we did live last week at a DC public sector summit for AWS next week's cube con. So it's three in a row. So maybe it's a trend. It we'll see. >>Well, the thing that was really surprising was that we were in the keynote briefly this morning. It was standing room only. There are a lot of people at this conference. They think they were expecting about 2000. And to me it looked like there were at least out, if not more >>Funny leases, most companies, if not virtually all of them, except for a handful are canceling physical events. And because they're saying their customers aren't traveling, but I've talked to over a dozen customers. I just got here yesterday afternoon. I've talked about 10 or 12 customers who are here. They're flying, they're traveling. And we're going to dig into a lot of that. Today. We have Uber coming on the program. We have applied materials coming on, blue cross blue shield. I'm really happy that you AIPAC decided to, to put a number of customers on the cubes so we can test what we're hearing, you know, in the marketing. >>Well, one of the first things that they said in the keynote this morning was we want to hear from our customers, what are we doing? Right? What are we not doing enough of? What do you want more? They've got eight over 8,000 customers. You mentioned some of the ones that are going to be on the program this week, including Chevron and Merck who are on today. And 70% of their revenue comes from existing customers. This is a company that has, is really kind of a use case in land and expand. Yeah. >>And I think you're going to see this trend. You know what it's like with COVID it's day to day, month to month, quarter to quarter, you're trying to figure out, okay, what's the right model. Clearly hybrid is the, is the new abnormal, if you will. And I think we're going to see is, is you're going to have VIP events. And this is kind of a VIP event. It's not, you know, 5,000 people, it's kind of 1500, 2000, but there are a lot of VIP customers here. Obviously the partners here. So what they did before the show is they had a partner summit. It was packed. You talked about standing room only. They had a healthcare summit, it was packed. And so they have these little VIP sections, little events within the event, and then they broadcast it out to a wider audience. And I think that's going to be the normal one. I think you're going to see CEO's in a room, maybe in a hotel and wherever in Manhattan or, or San Francisco. And then they'll broadcast out to that wider audience. I think people are learning how to build better hybrid events, but by the way, this is all new. As I said, hybrid events, I meant virtual events. And now they're learning to learn how to build hybrid events. And that's a whole nother new process. >>It is. But it's also exciting to see the traction, the momentum that is here from, you know, they and they IPO at about what six months ago, you covered that your breaking analysis that you did right before the IPO and the breaking analysis that you did last last week, I believe really fascinating. Interesting acceleration is a theme. We're going to talk about the acceleration of automation and the momentum that the pandemic is driving. But this is a company that's accelerated everything. As you said on your breaking analysis, lightning in a bottle, this is a company that went global very quickly. We're seeing them as some of the leading companies. We can probably count on one hand who are actually coming back to these hybrid events and say, we want to be with our customers again and learn from you what you're doing, what's going on. And we've got a lot of news to share. >>Yeah, we've been covering UI path since 2015. And the piece we wrote back at IPO was, uh, you, you bypass long, strange trip to IPO and it, and it was strange. And that they kind of hung out as a software development shop for the better part of a decade. And then just listening and learning, writing code, they were kind of gigs writing code and loved it. And then they realized, wow, we have something here we can. And they, their uniqueness is they have a computer vision technology. They have the ability to sort of infer what a form looks like and then actually populated. And the thing that UI path did that was different was they made it sound, sounds crazy. They made the product really simple to use, and we know simplicity works. We see that with best example in storage storage, a complicated business, pure storage, right? >>They pop it in. You kind of Veeam is another one. It just works. And so they, they created a freemium model. It made it easy for departments to start small, you know, maybe for 15, 20, 20 $5,000, you could get a software robot and then it would do things like whatever it, it would pull data out of one spreadsheet, put it into another pull date out of one, SAS populated and people then realize, wow, I am saving a ton of time. I can do some other things I'm more productive. And then other people looking over her shoulder would say, Hey, what is that you're using? Can I get that? And then all of a sudden, like you said, lightning in a bottle and it exploded, not a conventional Silicon valley, you know, funded company, even though they got a lot of funding, they got, they raised, I think, close to a billion dollars before they went public. Um, and now they're public went public in April. The stock has been sort of trending downward for the last four or five months, a little bit off on sympathy, but you know, >>What do you think that is? They had such momentum going into it. They clearly have a lot of momentum here. 8,000 plus customers. They've got over 1200 customers with an ARR above a hundred thousand. Why do you think the stock is? >>So I think a couple of things, at least, I think first of all, the street doesn't fully understand this company. You know, Daniel DNAs has never been the CEO of a public company. He's not from Silicon valley. He's, you know, from, from, uh, Eastern Europe and they don't know him that well, uh, they've got, you know, the very, very capable, and so they're educating the streets. So there's a comfort level there. They're looking at their growth and they're inferring from their billings that their growth is, is declining. The new growth from new customers in particular. But there, the ARR is still growing at 60% annually. They also guided a little bit conservatively for the street. And the other thing is they've been profitable. I'm not if a cashflow basis. And then they guided that they would actually be, be somewhat unprofitable in the coming quarter. >>People didn't like that. They don't care about profits until you're somewhat profitable. And then you say, Hey, we're going to be a little less profitable, but of course they get events like this. So that, that, I think it's just a matter of the street getting to understand them. And I will say this, and you know, this, they're getting a lot of business from their existing customers. We saw this with snowflake, uh, Cleveland research, put out a note saying, oh, Snowflake's new customer growth is slowing. We published research from our friends at ETR that showed well, they're getting a lot of business from existing customers that sort of fat middle is really where they're starting to mind. And you can see this with UI path. The lifetime value of the customers is just growing and growing and growing. And so I'm not as concerned. The stocks, you know, we don't, we don't, we're not the stock advisors, but the stock is just over 50. >>Now it wasn't 90 at one point. So it's got a valuation of somewhere around 26 billion, which was closer to 50 billion. So who knows, maybe this is a buying opportunity. There's not a lot of data. So the technical analyst are saying, well, we really don't know where it's going to cook it down to 30. It could go, could go rock it up from here. I think the point Lisa is, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint, it's a long-term play. And these guys are the leaders. And they're, I think moving away from the pack. And the last thing is this concern about competition from Microsoft who bought a company last year to really in earnest, get into this business. And everybody's afraid of Microsoft. >>Well, one thing that we know that's growing considerably is the total addressable market pre pandemic. It was about 30 billion. It's now north of 60 billion. We've seen the pandemic accelerate a lot of things. Talk to me a little bit about automation as its role in digital transformation from your side. >>Yeah, I think, you know, this is again, it's a really good question because when you look at these total available market numbers, the way that companies virtually all companies, whether it's Dell or Cisco or UI path or anybody, they take data from like Gartner and IDC and they say, okay, these are the markets that we kind of play in, and this is how it's growing. What's really happening leases. All these markets are converging because of digital. So to your question, it's a di what's a digital business. A digital business is a data business and they differentiate by the way in which they use data. And if you're not a digital business during the pandemic, you're out of business. So all of these markets, cloud machine intelligence, AI automation, orchestra, uh, container orchestration, container platforms, they're all coming together as one, it's all being built in as one. >>So 60 billion, you know, up from 30 billion, I think it could be a hundred billion. I think, you know, they threw out a stat today that 2% of processes are automated says to me that, I mean, anything digital is going to be automated. So that is hundreds of billions of dollars of, of market opportunity, right? And so there's no shortage of market opportunity for this company. And that's why, by the way, everybody's entering it. We saw SAP make some acquisitions. We S we see in for talking about it, uh, uh, Salesforce, uh, service now, and these SAS companies are all saying, Hey, we can own the automation piece within our stack, what UI path is doing. And the reason why I liked their strategy better is they're a specialist in automation horizontally across all these software stacks. And that's really why they're Tam, I think is, >>And that gives them quite a big differentiator that horizontal play >>It does. I think I see. So I don't see, I think there's a continuum and I think you got Microsoft over here with Azure and personal productivity in their cloud. And then you've got the pure plays, which are really focusing on a broader automation agenda. That's UI path, that's automation, anywhere I would put blue prism in that category blueprints. And by the way, he's getting, getting acquired by Vista, and they're gonna merge them with TIBCO company that, you know, quite a bit about, and that's an integration play. So that's kind of interesting. I would put them as more of a horizontal play. And then in the fat middle, you've got SAP and in four and, you know, IBM is getting to the game. Although they, I think they OEM from a lot of different companies and all those other companies I mentioned before, they're kind of the walled gardens. >>And so I think that UI path is less of a head-to-head competitor with, with Microsoft today anyway, than it is for instance, with automation anywhere. And it's, and it's growing faster than automation, anywhere from what we can tell. And it's, it's still a leader in that horizontal play. You know, you never discount Microsoft, but I think just like for instance, Okta is a specialist in, in, in access identity, access management and privileged, privileged access management and access government, they compete with Microsoft's single sign on, right. But they're a horizontal play. So there's plenty of room for, for both in my view. Anyway, >>Some of the things that you can you think that we're going to hear, you know, seem to be at this inflection point where UI path wants to move away from being an RPA point solution to an enterprise automation platform they made, they made some announcements about vision a couple of years ago at the last in-person event. What are some of the things you think that are going to be announced in the next couple? >>That's a really good question. I'm glad you picked up on that because they started as a point tool essentially. And then they realized, wow, if we're really going to grow as a company, we have to expand that. So they made acquisite, they've been making acquisitions. One of the key acquisitions they made was a company called process gold. So it's funny when we've done previous, uh, RPA events, I've said RPA in its early days was kind of scripts paving the cow path, meaning you're taking existing processes of saying, okay, we're just going to automate them where UI path is headed in others is they're looking across the enterprise and how do we go end to end? How do we take a broader automation agenda and drive automation throughout the entire organization? And I think that's a lot of what we're going to hear from today. We heard that from executives, APAR, co Kaylon, and, um, and, and, and Ted Coomer talked about their engineering and their product vision. And I think you iPad has to show that that's actually what's happening with customers and they have the portfolio to deliver >>Well, those two executives that you just mentioned, and a lot of others are going to be on the program. The next couple of days jam packed. Dave, I'm looking forward to unpacking what UI path is doing. The acceleration in the automation market. We're going to have a fun >>Couple of days. Thanks for coming on here for David >>Lante. I'm Lisa Martin. We're going to be back live from Las Vegas at UI path forward for in just a minute.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante by the dip has been been an effective strategy since the market bottomed in early march last year the approach has been especially successful in tech and even more so for those tech names that one were well positioned for the forced march to digital i sometimes call it i.e remote work online commerce data centric platforms and certain cyber security plays and two already had the cloud figured out the question on investors minds is where to go from here should you avoid some of the high flyers that are richly valued with eye-popping multiples or should you continue to buy the dip and if so which companies that capitalized on the trends from last year will see permanent shifts in spending patterns that make them a solid long-term play hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we shine the spotlight on three companies that may be candidates for a buy the dip strategy and it's our pleasure to welcome in ivana delevco who's the chief investment officer and founder of spear alpha a new research-centric etf focused on industrial technology ivana is a long-time equity analyst with a background in both long and short investing ivana welcome to the program thanks so much for coming on thanks for having me david yeah it's really our pleasure i i want to start with your etf and give the folks a bit more background about you first you know we gotta let people know i'm not an investment pro i'm not an advisor i don't make stock recommendations i don't sell investments so you got to do your own research i have a lot of data so happy to share it but you got to understand your own risks you of course yvonne on the other hand you do offer investment services and so people before investing got to carefully review all the available available investment docs understand what you're getting into before you invest now with that out of the way ivana i have some stats up here on this slide your spear you're a newly launched female lead firm that does deep research into the supply chain we're going to talk about that you try to uncover as i understand it under-appreciated industrial tech firms and some really pretty cool areas that we list here but tell us a little bit more about your background and your etf so thanks for having me david my background is in industrial research and industrial technology investments i've spent the past 15 years covering this space and what we've seen over the past five years is technology changes that are really driving fundamental shifts in industrial manufacturing processes so whether this is 5g connectivity innovation in the software stack increasing compute speeds all of these are major technological advancements that are impacting uh traditional manufacturers so what we try to do is assess speak to these firms and assess who is at the leading and who is at the lagging end of this digital transformation and we're trying to assess what vendors they're using what processes they're implementing and that is how we generate most of our investment ideas okay great and and we show on the bottom of of this sort of intro slide if you will uh so one of the processes that you use and one of the things that that is notable a lot of people compare you uh to kathy woods are investments when you came out uh i think you use a different process i mean maybe there are some similarities in terms of disruption but at the bottom of this slide it shows a mckinsey sort of graphic that that i think informs people as to how you really dig into the supply chain from a research standpoint is that right absolutely so for us it's all about understanding the supply chain going deep in the supply chain and gather data points from primary sources that we can then translate into investment opportunities so if you look at this mckinsey graph uh you will see that there is a lot of opportunity to for these companies to transform themselves both on the front end which means better revenue better products and on their operation side which means lower cost whether it's through better operations or through better processes on the the back end so what we do is we will speak to a traditional manufacturing company and ask them okay well what do you use for better product development and they will give us the name of the firms and give us an assessment of what's the differences between the competitors why they like one versus the other so then we're gonna take the data and we will put it into our financial model and we'll understand the broader market for it um the addressable market the market share that the company has and will project the growth so for these higher growth stocks that that you cover the main alpha generation uh potential here is to understand what the amount of growth these companies will generate over the next 10 to 20 years so it's really all about projecting growth in the next three years in the next five years and where will growth ultimately settle in in the next 10 to 20 years love it we're gonna have a fun conversation because today we're going to get into your thesis for cooper snowflake and z scalar we're going to bring in some of our own data some of our data from etr and and why you think these companies may be candidates for long-term growth and and be buy the dip stock so to do that i hacked up this little comparison slide we're showing here i do this for context our audience knows i'm not a cfa or a valuation expert but we like to do simple comparisons just to give people context and a sense of relative size growth and valuation and so this chart attempts to do that so what i did is i took the most recent quarterly revenue for cooper snowflake and z scalar multiplied it by four to get a run rate we included servicenow in the table just for baseline reference because bill mcdermott as we've reported aspires to make service now the next great enterprise software company alongside with salesforce and oracle and some of the others and and all these companies that we list here that through the three here they aspire to do so in their own domain so we're displaying the market cap from friday morning september 10th we calculated a revenue run rate multiple and we show the quarterly revenue growth and what this data does is gives you a sense of the three companies they're well on their way to a billion dollars in revenue it underscores the relationship between revenue growth and valuation snowflake being the poster child for that dynamic savannah i know you do much more detailed financial analysis but let's talk about these companies in order maybe start with koopa they just crushed their quarter i mean they blew away consensus on the top line what else about the company do you like and why is it on your by the dip list so just to back up david on valuation these companies investors either directly or indirectly value on a dcf basis and what happened at the beginning of the year as interest rates started increasing people started freaking out and once you plug in 100 basis points higher interest rate in your dcf model you get significant price downside so that really drove a lot of the pullback at the beginning of the year right now where we stand today interest rates haven't really moved all that significantly off the bot of the bottom they're still around the same levels maybe a little bit higher but those are not the types of moves that are going to drive significant downside in this stock so as things have stabilized here a lot of these opportunities look pretty attractive on that basis so koopa specifically came out of our um if you go back to that uh the chart of like where the opportunities lie in um in across the manufacturing uh um enterprise koopa is really focused on business pen management so they're really trying to help companies reduce their cost uh and they're a leader in the space uh they're unique uh unique in that they're cloud-based so the feedback we've been hearing from from our companies that use it jetblue uses it train technologies uses it the feedback we've been hearing is that they love the ease of implementation so it's very easy to implement and it drives real savings um savings for these companies so we see in our dcf model we see multiple years of this 30 40 percent growth and that's really driving our price target yeah and we can i can confirm that i mean i mean just anecdotally you know you know we serve a lot of the technology community and many of our clients are saying hey okay you know when you go to do invoicing or whatever you work with procurement it's koopa you know this is some ariba that's kind of the legacy which is sap we'll talk about that a little later but let's talk about snowflake um you know snowflake we've been tracking them very closely we know the management there we've watched them through their last two companies now here and have been following that company early on since since really 2015. tell us why you like snowflake um and and maybe why you think it can continue its rapid growth thanks david so first of all i need to compliment you on your research on the company on the technology side so where we come in is more from understanding where our companies can use soft snowflake and where snowflake can add value so what we've been hearing from our companies is the challenge that they're facing is that everybody's moving to the cloud but it's not as simple as just send your data to the cloud and call aws and they're gonna generate more revenue for your solve your cost problem so what we've been hearing is that companies need to find tools that are easy to use where they can use their own domain expertise and just plug and play so um ansys is one of the companies we covered the dust simulation they've found snowflake to be an extremely useful tool in sales lead generation and within sales crm systems have been around for a while and they're they've really been implemented but analyzing sales numbers is something that is new to this company some some of our companies don't even know what their sales are even when they look back after the quarter is closed so tools like this help um companies do easy analytics and therefore drive revenue and cost savings growth so we see really big runway for for this company and i think the most misunderstood part about it is that people view it as a warehousing data warehousing play while this is all about compute and the company does a good job separating the two and what our their customers like or like the companies that we cover like about it is that it can lower their compute costs um and make it much easier much more easily manageable for them great and we're going to talk about more about each of these companies but let's talk about z-scaler a bit i mean z-scaler is a company we've been very excited about and identified them kind of early on they've definitely benefited from the move to cloud generally and specifically the remote work uh situation with the cyber threats etc but tell us why you like z-scaler so interestingly z-scaler um we like the broader security space um the broader cyber security space and interestingly our companies are not yet spending to the level that is commensurate with the increase in attack rate so we think this is a trend that is really going to accelerate as we go forward um my own board 20 of the time on the last board meeting was spent on cyber security what we're doing and this is a pretty simple operation that that we're running here so you can imagine for a large enterprise with thousands of people all around the world um needing to be on a single simple system z-scaler really fits well here very easy to implement several of our industrial companies use it siemens uses it ge uses it and they've had great great experience with it excellent i just want to take a quick look at how some of these names have performed over the last year and and what if anything this data tells us this is a chart comparing the past 12 months performance of of those four companies uh that we just talked about and we added in you know servicenow z scalar as you can see has outperformed the other despite your commentary on discounted cash flow snowflake is underperformed really precisely for the reasons that you mentioned not to mention the fact that it was pretty highly valued and you can see relative to the nas but it's creeping back lately after very strong earnings even though the stock dropped after it beat earnings because the street wants the cfo to say to guide even higher than maybe as mike scarpelli feels is prudent and you can see cooper has also underperformed relatively speaking i mean it absolutely destroyed consensus this week the stock went up but it's been off with the the weaker market this week i know you like to take a longer term view but but anything you would add here yeah so interestingly both z-scaler and koopa were in the camp of as we went into earnings expectations were already pretty high because few of their competitors reported very strong results so this scalar yesterday their revenue growth was was pretty strong the stock is down today uh and the reason is because people were kind of caught up a little bit in the noise of this quarter growth is 57 last quarter it was 60 like is this a deceleration we don't see it as that at all and the company brought up one point that i thought was extremely interesting which is as their deal sizes are getting larger it takes a little longer time for them to see the revenue come through so it takes a little bit of time to for you to see it into from billings into into revenue same thing with cooper very strong earnings report but i think expectations were already pretty high going into it uh given the service now and um and anna plan as well reported strong results so i think it's all about positioning so we love these setups where you can buy the deep in on this opportunity where like people get caught up in um short-term noise and and it creates good entry points excellent i i want to bring in some data from our partner etr and see if you have any comments ivana so what we're showing here is a two-dimensional chart we like to show this uh very frequently it's based on a survey of between a thousand and fifteen hundred chief information officers and technology buyers every quarter this is from their most recent july survey the vertical axis shows net score which is a measure of spending momentum i mean this it measures the net percentage of customers in the survey that are spending more on a particular product or platform in other words it essentially subtracts the percentage of customers spending less from those spending more which yields a net score it's more granular than that but basically that's what it does the horizontal axis is market share or pervasiveness in the data set it's not revenue market share like you get from idc it's it's a mention market share and now that red dotted line at the 40 percent mark on the vertical represents an elevated level in other words anything above 40 percent we consider notable and we've plotted our three by the dip companies and included some of their competitors for context and you can see we added salesforce servicenow and oracle and that orange ellipse because they're some of the bigger names in the software business so let's take these in alphabetical order ivana starting with koopa in the blue you can see we plotted them next to sap's ariba and you can see cooper has stronger spending momentum but not as much presence in the market so to me my influence is oh that's an opportunity for them to steal share more modern technology you know more facile and of course oracle has products in this space but the oracle dot includes all oracle products not just the procurement stuff but uh maybe your thoughts on this absolutely i love this chart i think that's your spot on this would be the same way i would interpret the chart where um increased spending momentum is is a sign of the company providing products that people like and we we expect to see cooper's share grow market share grow over time as well so let's come back to the chart and i want to i want to really point out the green ellipse this is the data zone if you will uh and we're like a broken record on this program with snowflake has performed unbelievably well in net score and spending momentum every quarter the dtr has captured enough end sample in its survey holding near or above 80 percent its net score consistently is has been up there and we've plotted data bricks in that zone it's been expected right that data bricks is going to do an ipo this year late last month company raised 1.6 billion in a private round so i guess that was either a strategy to delay the ipo or raise a bunch more cash and give late investors a low risk bite at the apple you know pre-ipo as we saw with snowflake last year what we didn't plot here are some of snowflake's biggest competitors ivana who also happen to be their partners most notably the big cloud players all who have their own database offerings aws microsoft and google now you've said snowflake is much more than a database company i wonder if you could add some color here yeah that's a very good point david uh basically the the driver of the thesis in snowflake is all about acceleration and spending and what we are seeing is the customers that are signed up on their platform today they're not even spending they're probably spending less than five percent of what they can ultimately spend on this product and the reason is because they don't yet know what the ultimate applications are for this right so you're gonna start with putting the data in a format you can use and you need to come up with use cases or how are you actually going to use this data so back to the example that i gave with answers the first use case that they found was trying to optimize leads there could be like 100 other use cases and they're coming up with with those on a daily basis so i would expect um this score to keep keep uh keep up pretty high or or go even higher as we as people figure out how they can use this product you know the buy-the-dip thesis on snowflake was great last quarter because the stock pulled back after they announced earnings and when we reported we said you know mike the the company see well cleveland research came out remember they got the dip on that and we looked at the data and we said mike scarpelli said that you know we're going to probably as a percentage of overall customers decelerate the net net new logos but we're going deeper into the customer base and that's exactly what's happening with with snowflake but okay let's bring up the slide again last but not least the z scaler we love z scalar we named z scaler in 2019 as an emerging four-star security company along with crowdstrike and octa and we said these three should be on your radar and as you see we've plotted z scalar with octa who with its it's its recent move into to converging identity and governance uh it gets kind of interesting uh we plotted them with palo alto as well another cyber security player that we've covered extensively we love octa in addition to z-scaler we great respect for palo alto and you'll note all of them are over that 40 percent line these are disruptors they're benefiting well not so much palo alto they're more legacy but the the other two are benefiting from that shift to work from home cloud security modern tech stack uh the acquisition that octa-made of of of auth0 and again z scalar cloud security getting rid of a lot of hardware uh really has a huge tailwind at its back if on a zscaler you know they've benefited from the huge my cloud migration trend what are your thoughts on the company so i actually love all three companies that are there right and the point is people are just going to spend more money whether you are on the cloud of the cloud the data centers need more security as well so i think there is a strong case to be made for all three with this scaler the upside is that it's just very easy to use very easy to implement and if you're somebody that is just setting up infrastructure on the cloud there is no reason for you to call any other competitor right with palo alto the case there is that if you have an established um security platfor if you're on their security platform the databa on the data center side uh they they did introduce through several acquisitions a pretty attractive cloud offering as well so they've been gaining share as well in the space and and the company does look pretty attractive on valiation basis so for us cyber security is really all about rising tide lifts all boats here right so you can have a pure play like this scaler uh that benefits from the cloud but even somebody like palo alto is pretty well positioned um to benefit yeah we think so too over a year ago we reported on the valuation divergence between palo alto and fortinet fortinet was doing a better job moving to the cloud and obviously serves more of a mid-market space palo alto had some go-to-market execution challenges we said at the time they're going to get through those and when we talk to chief information security officers palo alto is like the gold standard they're the thought leader they want to work with them but at the same time they also want to participate in some of these you know modern cloud stacks so i we agree there's plenty of room for all three um just to add a bit more color and drill into the spending data a little bit more this slide here takes that net score and shows the progression since january 2019 and you can see a snowflake just incredible in terms of its ability to maintain that elevated net score as we talked about and the table on the insert it shows you the number of responses and all three of these companies have been getting more mentions over time but snowflake and z scale are now both well over 100 n in the survey each quarter and the other notable piece here and this is really important you can see all three are coming out of the isolation economy with the spending uptick nice upticks shown in the most recent survey so that's again another positive but i want to close ivana with kind of making the bull and bear case and have you address really the risks to the buy the dip scenario so look there are a lot of reasons to like these companies we talked about them cooper they've got earnings momentum you know management on the call side had very strong end market demand this the stock you know has underperformed the nasdaq you know this year snowflake and zscaler they also have momentum snowflake get this enormous tam uh although they were punished for not putting a hard number on it which is ridiculous in my opinion i mean the thing is it's huge um the investors were just kind of you know wanting a little binky baby blanket but they all have modern tech in the cloud and really importantly this shows in the etr surveys you know the momentum that they have so very high retention is the other point i wanted to make the very very low churn of these companies however cooper's management despite the blowout quarter they gave kind of underwhelming guidance they've cited headwinds uh they've with the the the lamisoft uh migration to their cloud platform snowflake is kind of like price to perfection so maybe that's an advantage because every every little negative news is going to going to cause the company to dip but it's you know it's pretty high value because salutman and scarpelli everybody expects them to surpass what happened at servicenow which was a rocket ship and it could be all argued that all three are richly priced and overvalued so but ivana you're looking out as you said a couple of years three years maybe even five years how do you think about the potential downside risks in in your by the dip scenario you buy every dip you looking for bigger dips or what's your framework there so what we try to do is really look every quarter the company reports is there something that's driving fundamental change to the story or is it a one-off situation where people are just misunderstanding what the company is reporting so in the case we kind of addressed some of the earnings that that were reported but with koopa we think the man that management is guiding conservatively as they should so we're not very concerned about their ability to execute on on the guidance and and to exceed the guidance with snowflake price to perfection that's never a good idea to avoid a stock uh because it just shows that there is the company is doing a great job executing right so um we are looking for reports like the cleveland report where they would be like negative on the stock and that would be an entry point uh for us so broadly we apply by the deep philosophy but not not if something fundamentally changes in the story and none of these three are showing any signs of fundamental change okay we're going to leave it right there thanks to my guest today ivana tremendous having you would love to have you back great to see you thank you david and def you definitely want to check out sprx and the spear etf now remember i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes they're all available as podcasts all you do is search breaking analysis podcasts you can always connect with me on twitter i'm at d vallante or email me at david.vellante at siliconangle.com love the comments on linkedin don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante recent earnings reports from key enterprise software and infrastructure players underscore that tech spending remains robust in the post isolation economy especially for those companies that have figured out a cloud strategy now despite covert variant uncertainties and component shortages and hardware most leading tech names outperformed expectations this past week that said investors were not in the mood to reward all names and any variability in product mix or earnings outlook or other nuances were met with a tepid response from the street hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll provide you with commentary and data points on key tech companies that announced this past week including snowflake salesforce workday splunk elastic palo alto networks vmware dell pure storage hp inc and netapp let's start by rolling back a week or so and look at how stocks that are priced to perfection get impacted by any negative news back on august 20th we saw this headline hit snowflake stock falls as analyst says signings growth has slowed the analyst report was put out by a boutique firm cleveland research the stock took a double-digit hit as you can see here i immediately got several texts from investors who know i follow the company asking me what i thought now as a disclaimer i don't give stock picking advice please do your own research but between the cube wikibon and etr we do see a lot of data and i'm happy to share that which i did with this tweet it said lots of talk ahead of snowflake's earnings some analysts have said their data suggests a slowdown etr data looks pretty encouraging and i tagged merv adrian he's a sharp analyst over at gartner who follows data and database he responded i don't speculate about revenues but there's no discernible shift in our client conversations though interest still seems high okay cool but let's let's dig into the etr data a bit and see why we remained positive this is a larger and more detailed version of the chart in the tweet it's a candlestick that shows a time series of the spending data on snowflake using etr's net score methodology the stacked bars represent the percent of customers in the survey that are newly adding the snowflake platform the forest green indicates the number of customers reporting that their spending is increasing by six percent or more the gray is flat spend that's plus or minus five percent the pinkish stack that's decreasing spend by six percent or more and the bright red is where chucking the platform we're leaving now you subtract the reds from the greens and that yields a net score which for snowflake last survey was a very elevated 81.3 percent we've highlighted the spending velocity line that's net score at the top put a picture of that blue line for snowflake in your mind because we're going to come back to it the yellow line down below is market share which is a measure of the pervasiveness in the survey i.e mention share if you will so looking at this chart one might conclude that the lime green i.e new account acquisition is compressing however in further analyzing the data back in january 2019 snowflake's presence in the survey was much lower only 35 accounts in subsequent quarters that number has jumped to over between 120 and 140 snowflake accounts so big much bigger n so while the percentage of respondents may be shrinking the absolute number of new accounts is growing on the snowflake earnings call snowflake said that new customers increased this past quarter to 458 up from 397 in the same period last year what's also telling is the forest green on its very first earnings call as a public company snowflake cfo mike scarpelli said very clearly the company's revenue growth in the near term will come from existing customers and the forest green i.e existing customers spending more is expanding in the etr survey so very strong confirmation of that trend and note the red is virtually non-existent for snowflake so it's no surprise that snowflake handily beat its earnings on the 25th of august which prompted a flurry of texts to me saying you were right thanks don't thank me do your own research we're just one data source okay so here's a snapshot of some of the major players that announced earnings this past week this chart is our popular xy view with net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness in the survey in the horizontal plane we talked about snowflake already but i'll emphasize they've held that roughly eighty percent net score for ten plus quarterly surveys now and they've continued to move steadily to the right on the horizontal axis let's make some comments on these other names and then dig in a bit more salesforce of course they're the big player amongst these names that we're showing and as we've said in previous breaking analysis segments they have become the next great software company showing 20 plus growth for five consecutive quarters which is quite impressive splunk as we've reported has struggled in the survey but you can see splunk has a great presence in the data set they have an awesome customer base and the acquisition of signal fx plotted on the left with an elevated next net score represents a really good opportunity to enter new markets like observability and pull signalfx to the right to the rest of splunk's customers and that can help accelerate splunk's move toward a subscription model then there's workday we're plotting the company's core hcm business as well as its emerging financial software suite the latter represents workday's tam expansion opportunity and the company appears to be back on track to show sustained growth now let's dig a little deeper into these names and we'll start with salesforce here's the etr spending profile for salesforce salesforce as we showed earlier has a huge and growing presence in the market and a consistently elevated net score in the etr data and while the chart shows much more green than red and a strong uptick in spending momentum from last october survey this doesn't really tell the whole story salesforce's stock price rocketed out of the march 2020 crash and ran up to a peak last august and is on its way back salesforce has made a number of strategic acquisitions including tableau slack mulesoft and several other billion dollar plus buys as well as a number of smaller acquisitions this past quarter saw 23 revenue growth relative to last year with 20 percent plus operating margins that's huge salesforce's acquisition strategy is beginning to demonstrate the company's promised operating leverage and slack in our view will only add to that benefit including continuous improvement and free cash flow sales force revenue will blow through 25 billion dollars this fiscal year it's a company with a 250 billion dollar market cap and appears to be one a name that has meaningful upside opportunity okay let's take a quick look at splunk we're finally seeing an uptick in splunk's spending momentum with within the etr data set eric bradley and i have discussed this in previous breaking analysis segments the key point as we've reported is we see splunk as a company that has been in transition from a traditional license to an arr subscription model and finally the company is showing clarity that there's light at the end of that tunnel investors don't like companies in transition and like salesforce splunk's stock price ran up to an all-time high last august but then came down hard and never fully recovered but it has come off its may lows and there were some real positives this past quarter cloud annual recurring revenue for splunk this past quarter grew 72 percent and its bookings grew 20 29 year on year the company was conservative in its guidance and there still seems to be some uncertainty around cash flow but more clear guidance by splunk on the top line is a welcome sign and now another name that we've been following that announced earnings this week is elastic and as you can see by the etr data that company has an elevated net score with very little red in the bars now note that blue line while it's slowly decelerating it remains very strong and elevated remember the comment earlier i made about freezing that snowflake blue line in your head the reason we said that is because for snowflake to hold its roughly 80 net score position firmly over the past 10 plus quarters is quite astounding and for the most part it's unprecedented in the etr data set in recent memory back to elastic the company grew its top line by 45 which is a healthy beat and that helped operating margins come in above expectations elastic has become the open source poster child for observability but customers often cite challenges related to complexity and scaling with the need often to seek professional services help which sometimes impacts adoption and cost obviously but overall very strong report especially in its cloud business which grew 89 relative to last year all right let's pivot to infrastructure we're going to do that with palo alto networks and then look at a broader more traditional hardware and software players in february of 2020 we reported the valuation of divergence between palo alto networks and fortinet and we cited the challenges that palo alto was having around its shift to cloud that was a clear headwind at the time especially with regard to some of its go to market challenges at the same time we said that we were confident that palo alto would work through these issues and the csos from the etr panels along with other anecdotal information from the cube community suggested that the company would power through these problems well it has palo alto has a huge presence in the market and consistently elevated net scores as you can see here palo alto stock is trading near all-time highs and it reacted very well to its uh to the earnings report this past week where revenue grew nicely at 20 28 year on year the company has consistently impressed despite some hiccups of the past and appears to be well positioned for the emerging hybrid work economy okay now let's take a look at some of the key infrastructure players that announced this past week this chart shows our popular xy view with netscore spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share and or pervasiveness on the horizontal axis we'll start with vmware it has the biggest presence in the market amongst these names vmware's revenue grew nine percent in the quarter which was in line with estimates the company had a solid quarter but only marginally beat expectations and the stock got hit hard it was down 8 percent midday on friday vmware cited stronger than expected perpetual license sales and somewhat softer sas subscription revenue now it's not surprising that we're going to see some lumpiness in those two lines as the company transitions to a subscription model but investors clearly want to see more growth in sas and subscriptions than they do in the traditional perpetual license model vmware cloud on aws grew 80 and that's confirmed in the data here compute was also strong one concern in the etr data is the vmware cloud which is the the core the vm vmr cloud foundation vcf which you can see here is well off its january net score highs now it's possible the etr is picking up some of the conservative clients that don't want to move to an ar or subscription model it's unclear but we'll continue to watch that trend overall vmware's business model is solid in our view and very very strong now let's talk about dell next dell in our view had a great quarter it grew top-line revenues by 15 year-on-year its client business grew 27 percent and you can see the elevated dell laptop net net scores in this chart the isg business was up three percent that comprises service and networking which was up six percent and storage which was off one percent the storage business contin continues to struggle but management reported that its mid-range storage revenue was up 17 now the challenge here is that high-end storage it's cyclical it's exposed sometimes you know somewhat to mainframe cycles but but but but the other thing is that a lot of the mid-range capability is eating away at the high end not the least which by the way is is pure storage competing at the higher end but also dell's own mid-range business so that continues to be a drag on revenue the the size of the traditional high-end business that that v-max power max business still is is is quite large and the the new is not growing fast enough to offset the decline in in the old but i mean i saw these numbers from dell i was surprised to see the stock down nearly five percent at midday on friday and i think what's happening is a couple things one is that hpq hp inc which we show here at a lower net score than dell's laptop business cited supply chain issues and component shortages now dell cited the same but maybe it's off on sympathy it's clear to us that dell is doing a much better job than hp with regard to managing component shortages the frustrating thing for these companies is it might be a 50 part holding up a server or in dell's case or a laptop in dell and hpq's case but demand is good which is a positive but the biggest factor in dell stock price we think is it's getting dragged down with vmware in a way if you think about it with vmware's value comprising so much of dell's market cap being down only four percent while vmware is down eight percent implies that the core dell business is viewed positively by the street but i thought with the vmware spin coming later this year investors might gravitate more aggressively toward dell but that didn't happen maybe over time now you see netapp on the chart netapp beat on top line revenue and earnings this past quarter however the company has not performed well in the etr surveys for several quarters and has a negative net score this is due when you tear apart the the math this is due to a low number of new adoptions and a fat middle very big fat middle of flat spending and a pretty high churn in the data set now the company claims they've picked up 1500 new customers in its cloud business so maybe maybe the etr survey is not picking that up or perhaps it's existing customers that are moving to netapp's cloud service that they're counting as new that's unclear but netapp claims that its public cloud business grew 155 in the quarter regardless the street likes netapp's story the stock has been acting very well this year out passing outpacing the s p 500. now you also see pure on the chart with a nicely elevated net score the company beat top and bottom lines this quarter and its ceo charlie giancarlo promised roughly 20 percent revenue growth going forward the street sure liked that that story and the stock shot up nearly 20 percent on that news and you can see here a little drill down the etr spending data trends in the right direction for pure to support this momentum pure's messaging is all around a modern data platform and it's clear from customer conversations that its storage products are easier to use than traditional storage offerings and it has a leg up on the as a service trend which we've been reporting on which pure has been pursuing for a number of years but it's still a much smaller player a couple billion dollars than the dells and the netapps of the storage world but if it can continue on a strong growth trajectory it will of course become a larger custom company the question will be how to continue to expand its total available market now the obvious path has been share gains which over the years it has accomplished and has served them well but that won't be as easy as it was last decade when pure caught emc and netapp flat-footed without strong flash array strategies pure's port works acquisition is something to watch as well as it tries to transition the market to a true cloud-like program programmable infrastructure model infrastructure as code and we'll leave you with this thought about the infrastructure space generally in storage specifically while cloud storage has exploded over the past several years on-prem storage has been extremely soft this in our view has been due to the double whammy that we've reported the combination of cloud stealing share from on-prem and the big flash injection in other words the latter suppressed the need to buy more spinning spindles and controllers for better performance and it hurt demand you don't need to do that when you have all this flash headroom but as we predicted last year we believe that there's pent up demand as people go back to work and headquarters need refresh there's only so much blood that it managers can squeeze from the stone moving storage around optimizing servers and and improving things like utilization while at the same time maintaining adequate performance and doing so within some kind of reasonable window of a day storage is no longer monolithic there are emerging use cases especially ones that are data intensive different storage types are emerging as satya nadella said recently we've reached peak centralization and as such that will create tailwinds for storage offerings that can accommodate cloud and on-prem because it pros understand that moving data is expensive and risky it's best to keep data where it belongs for reasons of performance and of course compliance so it looks like there's a decent chance that the long storage winter is over and the market could return to solid growth even the face of a continued cloud explosion now to circle back quickly to the enterprise software business there seems to be no end in sight to the shift to cloud-based offerings both sas and snowflake-like consumption models of which we're big believers digital transformation initiatives are real they're meaningful and software spending we believe is going to be robust and power these transformations for quite some time okay that's it for today remember these episodes are all available as podcasts all you got to do is search breaking analysis podcast we publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can reach me at divalante on twitter or my linkedin posts or email me at david.vellante siliconangle.com please do check check out the etr website at etr.plus and see their new data packages and offerings for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr thanks for watching everybody be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. This is the CUBEs, continuous, deep dive coverage of the people, processes and technologies that are really changing our world. Right now, we're going to talk about modernization and what's beyond with Jamie Thomas, general manager, strategy and development, IBM Enterprise Security. Jamie, always a pleasure. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> It's great to see you, Dave. And thanks for having me on the CUBE is always a pleasure. >> Yeah, it is our pleasure. And listen, we've been hearing a lot about IBM is focused on hybrid cloud, Arvind Krishna says we must win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. I love that. We've been hearing a lot about AI. And I wonder if you could talk about IBM Systems and how it plays into that strategy? >> Sure, well, it's a great time to have this discussion Dave. As you all know, IBM Systems Technology is used widely around the world, by many, many 1000s of clients in the context of our IBM System Z, our power systems and storage. And what we have seen is really an uptake of monetization around those workloads, if you will, driven by hybrid cloud, the hybrid cloud agenda, as well as an uptake of Red Hat OpenShift, as a vehicle for this modernization. So it's pretty exciting stuff, what we see as many clients taking advantage of OpenShift on Linux, to really modernize these environments, and then stay close, if you will, to that systems of record database and the transactions associated with it. So they're seeing a definite performance advantage to taking advantage of OpenShift. And it's really fascinating to see the things that they're doing. So if you look at financial services, for instance, there's a lot of focus on risk analytics. So things like fraud, anti money laundering, mortgage risk, types of applications being done in this context, when you look at our retail industry clients, you see also a lot of customer centricity solutions, if you will, being deployed on OpenShift. And once again, having Linux close to those traditional LPARs of AIX, I-Series, or in the context of z/OS. So those are some of the things we see happening. And it's quite real. >> Now, you didn't mention power, but I want to come back and ask you about power. Because a few weeks ago, we were prompted to dig in a little bit with the when Arvind was on with Pat Kessinger at Intel and talking about the relationship you guys have. And so we dug in a little bit, we thought originally, we said, oh, it's about quantum. But we dug in. And we realized that the POWER10 is actually the best out there and the highest performance in terms of disaggregating memory. And we see that as a future architecture for systems and actually really quite excited about it about the potential that brings not only to build beyond system on a chip and system on a package, but to start doing interesting things at the Edge. You know, what do you what's going on with power? >> Well, of course, when I talked about OpenShift, we're doing OpenShift on power Linux, as well as Z Linux, but you're exactly right in the context for a POWER10 processor. We couldn't be more we're so excited about this processor. First of all, it's our first delivery with our partner Samsung with a seven nanometer form factor. The processor itself has only 18 billion transistors. So it's got a few transistors there. But one of the cool inventions, if you will, that we have created is this expansive memory region as part of this design point, which we call memory inception, it gives us the ability to reach memory across servers, up to two petabytes of memory. Aside from that, this processor has generational improvements and core and thread performance, improved energy efficiency. And all of this, Dave is going to give us a lot of opportunity with new workloads, particularly around artificial intelligence and inferencing around artificial intelligence. I mean, that's going to be that's another critical innovation that we see here in this POWER10 processor. >> Yeah, processor performance is just exploding. We're blowing away the historical norms. I think many people don't realize that. Let's talk about some of the key announcements that you've made in quantum last time we spoke on the qubit for last year, I think we did a deeper dive on quantum. You've made some announcements around hardware and software roadmaps. Give us the update on quantum please. >> Well, there is so much that has happened since we last spoke on the quantum landscape. And the key thing that we focused on in the last six months is really an articulation of our roadmaps, so the roadmap around hardware, the roadmap around software, and we've also done quite a bit of ecosystem development. So in terms of the roadmap around hardware, we put ourselves out there we've said we were going to get to over 1000 qubit machine and in 2023, so that's our milestone. And we've got a number of steps we've outlined along that way, of course, we have to make progress, frankly, every six months in terms of innovating around the processor, the electronics and the fridge associated with these machines. So lots of exciting innovation across the board. We've also published a software roadmap, where we're articulating how we improve a circuit execution speeds. So we hope, our plan to show shortly a 100 times improvement in circuit execution speeds. And as we go forward in the future, we're modifying our Qiskit programming model to not only allow a easily easy use by all types of developers, but to improve the fidelity of the entire machine, if you will. So all of our innovations go hand in hand, our hardware roadmap, our software roadmap, are all very critical in driving the technical outcomes that we think are so important for quantum to become a reality. We've deployed, I would say, in our quantum cloud over, you know, over 20 machines over time, we never quite identify the precise number because frankly, as we put up a new generation machine, we often retire when it's older. So we're constantly updating them out there, and every machine that comes on online, and that cloud, in fact, represents a sea change and hardware and a sea change in software. So they're all the latest and greatest that our clients can have access to. >> That's key, the developer angle you got redshift running on quantum yet? >> Okay, I mean, that's a really good question, you know, as part of that software roadmap in terms of the evolution and the speed of that circuit execution is really this interesting marriage between classical processing and quantum processing and bring those closer together. And in the context of our classical operations that are interfacing with that quantum processor, we're taking advantage of OpenShift, running on that classical machine to achieve that. And once again, if, as you can imagine, that'll give us a lot of flexibility in terms of where that classical machine resides and how we continue the evolution the great marriage, I think that's going to that will exist that does exist and will exist between classical computing and quantum computing. >> I'm glad I asked it was kind of tongue in cheek. But that's a key thread to the ecosystem, which is critical to obviously, you know, such a new technology. How are you thinking about the ecosystem evolution? >> Well, the ecosystem here for quantum is infinitely important. We started day one, on this journey with free access to our systems for that reason, because we wanted to create easy entry for anyone that really wanted to participate in this quantum journey. And I can tell you, it really fascinates everyone, from high school students, to college students, to those that are PhDs. But during this journey, we have reached over 300,000 unique users, we have now over 500,000 unique downloads of our Qiskit programming model. But to really achieve that is his back plane by this ongoing educational thrust that we have. So we've created an open source textbook, around Qiskit that allows organizations around the world to take advantage of it from a curriculum perspective. We have over 200 organizations that are using our open source textbook. Last year, when we realized we couldn't do our in person programming camps, which were so exciting around the world, you can imagine doing an in person programming camp and South Africa and Asia and all those things we did in 2019. Well, we had just like you all, we had to go completely virtual, right. And we thought that we would have a few 100 people sign up for our summer school, we had over 4000 people sign up for our summer school. And so one of the things we had to do is really pedal fast to be able to support that many students in this summer school that kind of grew out of our proportions. The neat thing was once again, seeing all the kids and students around the world taking advantage of this and learning about quantum computing. And then I guess that the end of last year, Dave, to really top this off, we did something really fundamentally important. And we set up a quantum center for historically black colleges and universities, with Howard University being the anchor of this quantum center. And we're serving 23 HBCUs now, to be able to reach a new set of students, if you will, with STEM technologies, and most importantly, with quantum. And I find, you know, the neat thing about quantum is is very interdisciplinary. So we have quantum physicist, we have electrical engineers, we have engineers on the team, we have computer scientists, we have people with biology and chemistry and financial services backgrounds. So I'm pretty excited about the reach that we have with quantum into HBCUs and even beyond right I think we can do some we can have some phenomenal results and help a lot of people on this journey to quantum and you know, obviously help ourselves but help these students as well. >> What do you see in people do with quantum and maybe some of the use cases. I mean you mentioned there's sort of a connection to traditional workloads, but obviously some new territory what's exciting out there? >> Well, there's been a really a number of use cases that I think are top of mind right now. So one of the most interesting to me has been one that showed us a few months ago that we talked about in the press actually a few months ago, which is with Exxon Mobil. And they really started looking at logistics in the context of Maritime shipping, using quantum. And if you think of logistics, logistics are really, really complicated. Logistics in the face of a pandemic are even more complicated and logistics when things like the Suez Canal shuts down, are even more complicated. So think about, you know, when the Suez Canal shut down, it's kind of like the equivalent of several major airports around the world shutting down and then you have to reroute all the traffic, and that traffic and maritime shipping is has to be very precise, has to be planned the stops are plan, the routes are plan. And the interest that ExxonMobil has had in this journey is not just more effective logistics, but how do they get natural gas shipped around the world more effectively, because their goal is to bring energy to organizations into countries while reducing CO2 emissions. So they have a very grand vision that they're trying to accomplish. And this logistics operation is just one of many, then we can think of logistics, though being a being applicable to anyone that has a supply chain. So to other shipping organizations, not just Maritime shipping. And a lot of the optimization logic that we're learning from that set of work also applies to financial services. So if we look at optimization, around portfolio pricing, and everything, a lot of the similar characteristics will also go be applicable to the financial services industry. So that's one big example. And I guess our latest partnership that we announced with some fanfare, about two weeks ago, was with the Cleveland Clinic, and we're doing a special discovery acceleration activity with the Cleveland Clinic, which starts prominently with artificial intelligence, looking at chemistry and genomics, and improve speed around machine learning for all of the the critical healthcare operations that the Cleveland Clinic has embarked on but as part of that journey, they like many clients are evolving from artificial intelligence, and then learning how they can apply quantum as an accelerator in the future. And so they also indicated that they will buy the first commercial on premise quantum computer for their operations and place that in Ohio, in the the the years to come. So it's a pretty exciting relationship. These relationships show the power of the combination, once again, of classical computing, using that intelligently to solve very difficult problems. And then taking advantage of quantum for what it can uniquely do in a lot of these use cases. >> That's great description, because it is a strong connection to things that we do today. It's just going to do them better, but then it's going to open up a whole new set of opportunities. Everybody wants to know, when, you know, it's all over the place. Because some people say, oh, not for decades, other people say I think it's going to be sooner than you think. What are you guys saying about timeframe? >> We're certainly determined to make it sooner than later. Our roadmaps if you note go through 2023. And we think the 2023 is going to will be a pivotal year for us in terms of delivery around those roadmaps. But it's these kind of use cases and this intense working with these clients, 'cause when they work with us, they're giving us feedback on everything that we've done, how does this programming model really help me solve these problems? What do we need to do differently? In the case of Exxon Mobil, they've given us a lot of really great feedback on how we can better fine tune all elements of the system to improve that system. It's really allowed us to chart a course for how we think about the programming model in particular in the context of users. Just last week, in fact, we announced some new machine learning applications, which these applications are really to allow artificial intelligence users and programmers to get take advantage of quantum without being a quantum physicist or expert, right. So it's really an encapsulation of a composable elements so that they can start to use, using an interface allows them to access through PyTorch into the quantum computer, take advantage of some of the things we're doing around neural networks and things like that, once again, without having to be experts in quantum. So I think those are the kind of things we're learning how to do better, fundamentally through this co-creation and development with our quantum network. And our quantum network now is over 140 unique organizations and those are commercial, academic, national laboratories and startups that we're working with. >> The picture started become more clear, we're seeing emerging AI applications, a lot of work today in AI is in modeling. Over time, it's going to shift toward inference and real time and practical applications. Everybody talks about Moore's law being dead. Well, in fact, the yes, I guess, technically speaking, but the premise or the outcome of Moore's law is actually accelerating, we're seeing processor performance, quadrupling every two years now, when you include the GPU along with the CPU, the DSPs, the accelerators. And so that's going to take us through this decade, and then then quantum is going to power us, you know, well beyond who can even predict that. It's a very, very exciting time. Jamie, I always love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back on the CUBE. >> Well, I appreciate the time. And I think you're exactly right, Dave, you know, we talked about POWER10, just for a few minutes there. But one of the things we've done in POWER10, as well as we've embedded AI into every core that processor, so you reduce that latency, we've got a 10 to 20 times improvement over the last generation in terms of artificial intelligence, you think about the evolution of a classical machine like that state of the art, and then combine that with quantum and what we can do in the future, I think is a really exciting time to be in computing. And I really appreciate your time today to have this dialogue with you. >> Yeah, it's always fun and it's of national importance as well. Jamie Thomas, thanks so much. This is Dave Vellante with the CUBE keep it right there our continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021 will be right back. (gentle music) (bright music)

(bright music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. This is the CUBEs, continuous, deep dive coverage of the people, processes and technologies that are really changing our world. Right now, we're going to talk about modernization and what's beyond with Jamie Thomas, general manager, strategy and development, IBM Enterprise Security. Jamie, always a pleasure. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> It's great to see you, Dave. And thanks for having me on the CUBE is always a pleasure. >> Yeah, it is our pleasure. And listen, we've been hearing a lot about IBM is focused on hybrid cloud, Arvind Krishna says we must win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. I love that. We've been hearing a lot about AI. And I wonder if you could talk about IBM Systems and how it plays into that strategy? >> Sure, well, it's a great time to have this discussion Dave. As you all know, IBM Systems Technology is used widely around the world, by many, many 1000s of clients in the context of our IBM System Z, our power systems and storage. And what we have seen is really an uptake of monetization around those workloads, if you will, driven by hybrid cloud, the hybrid cloud agenda, as well as an uptake of Red Hat OpenShift, as a vehicle for this modernization. So it's pretty exciting stuff, what we see as many clients taking advantage of OpenShift on Linux, to really modernize these environments, and then stay close, if you will, to that systems of record database and the transactions associated with it. So they're seeing a definite performance advantage to taking advantage of OpenShift. And it's really fascinating to see the things that they're doing. So if you look at financial services, for instance, there's a lot of focus on risk analytics. So things like fraud, anti money laundering, mortgage risk, types of applications being done in this context, when you look at our retail industry clients, you see also a lot of customer centricity solutions, if you will, being deployed on OpenShift. And once again, having Linux close to those traditional LPARs of AIX, I-Series, or in the context of z/OS. So those are some of the things we see happening. And it's quite real. >> Now, you didn't mention power, but I want to come back and ask you about power. Because a few weeks ago, we were prompted to dig in a little bit with the when Arvind was on with Pat Kessinger at Intel and talking about the relationship you guys have. And so we dug in a little bit, we thought originally, we said, oh, it's about quantum. But we dug in. And we realized that the POWER10 is actually the best out there and the highest performance in terms of disaggregating memory. And we see that as a future architecture for systems and actually really quite excited about it about the potential that brings not only to build beyond system on a chip and system on a package, but to start doing interesting things at the Edge. You know, what do you what's going on with power? >> Well, of course, when I talked about OpenShift, we're doing OpenShift on power Linux, as well as Z Linux, but you're exactly right in the context for a POWER10 processor. We couldn't be more we're so excited about this processor. First of all, it's our first delivery with our partner Samsung with a seven nanometer form factor. The processor itself has only 18 billion transistors. So it's got a few transistors there. But one of the cool inventions, if you will, that we have created is this expansive memory region as part of this design point, which we call memory inception, it gives us the ability to reach memory across servers, up to two petabytes of memory. Aside from that, this processor has generational improvements and core and thread performance, improved energy efficiency. And all of this, Dave is going to give us a lot of opportunity with new workloads, particularly around artificial intelligence and inferencing around artificial intelligence. I mean, that's going to be that's another critical innovation that we see here in this POWER10 processor. >> Yeah, processor performance is just exploding. We're blowing away the historical norms. I think many people don't realize that. Let's talk about some of the key announcements that you've made in quantum last time we spoke on the qubit for last year, I think we did a deeper dive on quantum. You've made some announcements around hardware and software roadmaps. Give us the update on quantum please. >> Well, there is so much that has happened since we last spoke on the quantum landscape. And the key thing that we focused on in the last six months is really an articulation of our roadmaps, so the roadmap around hardware, the roadmap around software, and we've also done quite a bit of ecosystem development. So in terms of the roadmap around hardware, we put ourselves out there we've said we were going to get to over 1000 qubit machine and in 2023, so that's our milestone. And we've got a number of steps we've outlined along that way, of course, we have to make progress, frankly, every six months in terms of innovating around the processor, the electronics and the fridge associated with these machines. So lots of exciting innovation across the board. We've also published a software roadmap, where we're articulating how we improve a circuit execution speeds. So we hope, our plan to show shortly a 100 times improvement in circuit execution speeds. And as we go forward in the future, we're modifying our Qiskit programming model to not only allow a easily easy use by all types of developers, but to improve the fidelity of the entire machine, if you will. So all of our innovations go hand in hand, our hardware roadmap, our software roadmap, are all very critical in driving the technical outcomes that we think are so important for quantum to become a reality. We've deployed, I would say, in our quantum cloud over, you know, over 20 machines over time, we never quite identify the precise number because frankly, as we put up a new generation machine, we often retire when it's older. So we're constantly updating them out there, and every machine that comes on online, and that cloud, in fact, represents a sea change and hardware and a sea change in software. So they're all the latest and greatest that our clients can have access to. >> That's key, the developer angle you got redshift running on quantum yet? >> Okay, I mean, that's a really good question, you know, as part of that software roadmap in terms of the evolution and the speed of that circuit execution is really this interesting marriage between classical processing and quantum processing and bring those closer together. And in the context of our classical operations that are interfacing with that quantum processor, we're taking advantage of OpenShift, running on that classical machine to achieve that. And once again, if, as you can imagine, that'll give us a lot of flexibility in terms of where that classical machine resides and how we continue the evolution the great marriage, I think that's going to that will exist that does exist and will exist between classical computing and quantum computing. >> I'm glad I asked it was kind of tongue in cheek. But that's a key thread to the ecosystem, which is critical to obviously, you know, such a new technology. How are you thinking about the ecosystem evolution? >> Well, the ecosystem here for quantum is infinitely important. We started day one, on this journey with free access to our systems for that reason, because we wanted to create easy entry for anyone that really wanted to participate in this quantum journey. And I can tell you, it really fascinates everyone, from high school students, to college students, to those that are PhDs. But during this journey, we have reached over 300,000 unique users, we have now over 500,000 unique downloads of our Qiskit programming model. But to really achieve that is his back plane by this ongoing educational thrust that we have. So we've created an open source textbook, around Qiskit that allows organizations around the world to take advantage of it from a curriculum perspective. We have over 200 organizations that are using our open source textbook. Last year, when we realized we couldn't do our in person programming camps, which were so exciting around the world, you can imagine doing an in person programming camp and South Africa and Asia and all those things we did in 2019. Well, we had just like you all, we had to go completely virtual, right. And we thought that we would have a few 100 people sign up for our summer school, we had over 4000 people sign up for our summer school. And so one of the things we had to do is really pedal fast to be able to support that many students in this summer school that kind of grew out of our proportions. The neat thing was once again, seeing all the kids and students around the world taking advantage of this and learning about quantum computing. And then I guess that the end of last year, Dave, to really top this off, we did something really fundamentally important. And we set up a quantum center for historically black colleges and universities, with Howard University being the anchor of this quantum center. And we're serving 23 HBCUs now, to be able to reach a new set of students, if you will, with STEM technologies, and most importantly, with quantum. And I find, you know, the neat thing about quantum is is very interdisciplinary. So we have quantum physicist, we have electrical engineers, we have engineers on the team, we have computer scientists, we have people with biology and chemistry and financial services backgrounds. So I'm pretty excited about the reach that we have with quantum into HBCUs and even beyond right I think we can do some we can have some phenomenal results and help a lot of people on this journey to quantum and you know, obviously help ourselves but help these students as well. >> What do you see in people do with quantum and maybe some of the use cases. I mean you mentioned there's sort of a connection to traditional workloads, but obviously some new territory what's exciting out there? >> Well, there's been a really a number of use cases that I think are top of mind right now. So one of the most interesting to me has been one that showed us a few months ago that we talked about in the press actually a few months ago, which is with Exxon Mobil. And they really started looking at logistics in the context of Maritime shipping, using quantum. And if you think of logistics, logistics are really, really complicated. Logistics in the face of a pandemic are even more complicated and logistics when things like the Suez Canal shuts down, are even more complicated. So think about, you know, when the Suez Canal shut down, it's kind of like the equivalent of several major airports around the world shutting down and then you have to reroute all the traffic, and that traffic and maritime shipping is has to be very precise, has to be planned the stops are plan, the routes are plan. And the interest that ExxonMobil has had in this journey is not just more effective logistics, but how do they get natural gas shipped around the world more effectively, because their goal is to bring energy to organizations into countries while reducing CO2 emissions. So they have a very grand vision that they're trying to accomplish. And this logistics operation is just one of many, then we can think of logistics, though being a being applicable to anyone that has a supply chain. So to other shipping organizations, not just Maritime shipping. And a lot of the optimization logic that we're learning from that set of work also applies to financial services. So if we look at optimization, around portfolio pricing, and everything, a lot of the similar characteristics will also go be applicable to the financial services industry. So that's one big example. And I guess our latest partnership that we announced with some fanfare, about two weeks ago, was with the Cleveland Clinic, and we're doing a special discovery acceleration activity with the Cleveland Clinic, which starts prominently with artificial intelligence, looking at chemistry and genomics, and improve speed around machine learning for all of the the critical healthcare operations that the Cleveland Clinic has embarked on but as part of that journey, they like many clients are evolving from artificial intelligence, and then learning how they can apply quantum as an accelerator in the future. And so they also indicated that they will buy the first commercial on premise quantum computer for their operations and place that in Ohio, in the the the years to come. So it's a pretty exciting relationship. These relationships show the power of the combination, once again, of classical computing, using that intelligently to solve very difficult problems. And then taking advantage of quantum for what it can uniquely do in a lot of these use cases. >> That's great description, because it is a strong connection to things that we do today. It's just going to do them better, but then it's going to open up a whole new set of opportunities. Everybody wants to know, when, you know, it's all over the place. Because some people say, oh, not for decades, other people say I think it's going to be sooner than you think. What are you guys saying about timeframe? >> We're certainly determined to make it sooner than later. Our roadmaps if you note go through 2023. And we think the 2023 is going to will be a pivotal year for us in terms of delivery around those roadmaps. But it's these kind of use cases and this intense working with these clients, 'cause when they work with us, they're giving us feedback on everything that we've done, how does this programming model really help me solve these problems? What do we need to do differently? In the case of Exxon Mobil, they've given us a lot of really great feedback on how we can better fine tune all elements of the system to improve that system. It's really allowed us to chart a course for how we think about the programming model in particular in the context of users. Just last week, in fact, we announced some new machine learning applications, which these applications are really to allow artificial intelligence users and programmers to get take advantage of quantum without being a quantum physicist or expert, right. So it's really an encapsulation of a composable elements so that they can start to use, using an interface allows them to access through PyTorch into the quantum computer, take advantage of some of the things we're doing around neural networks and things like that, once again, without having to be experts in quantum. So I think those are the kind of things we're learning how to do better, fundamentally through this co-creation and development with our quantum network. And our quantum network now is over 140 unique organizations and those are commercial, academic, national laboratories and startups that we're working with. >> The picture started become more clear, we're seeing emerging AI applications, a lot of work today in AI is in modeling. Over time, it's going to shift toward inference and real time and practical applications. Everybody talks about Moore's law being dead. Well, in fact, the yes, I guess, technically speaking, but the premise or the outcome of Moore's law is actually accelerating, we're seeing processor performance, quadrupling every two years now, when you include the GPU along with the CPU, the DSPs, the accelerators. And so that's going to take us through this decade, and then then quantum is going to power us, you know, well beyond who can even predict that. It's a very, very exciting time. Jamie, I always love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back on the CUBE. >> Well, I appreciate the time. And I think you're exactly right, Dave, you know, we talked about POWER10, just for a few minutes there. But one of the things we've done in POWER10, as well as we've embedded AI into every core that processor, so you reduce that latency, we've got a 10 to 20 times improvement over the last generation in terms of artificial intelligence, you think about the evolution of a classical machine like that state of the art, and then combine that with quantum and what we can do in the future, I think is a really exciting time to be in computing. And I really appreciate your time today to have this dialogue with you. >> Yeah, it's always fun and it's of national importance as well. Jamie Thomas, thanks so much. This is Dave Vellante with the CUBE keep it right there our continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021 will be right back. (gentle music) (bright music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of you. I path live the release show brought to you by you. >>I path Hi. Welcome back to this special R p A drill down with support from you. I path You're watching The Cube. My name is Dave Volante and Bobby CMO. You know I passed Bobby. Good to see you again. Hope you're doing well. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, Dave. It's great to see you as well. It's always a pleasure to be on the Cube and even in the virtual format, this is really exciting. >>So, you know, last year at forward, we talked about the possibility of a downturn. Now nobody expected this kind of downturn. But we talked about that. Automation was likely something that was going to stay strong even in the downturn. We were thinking about potential recession or an economic downturn. Stock market dropped, but nothing like this. How are you guys holding up in this posted 19 pandemic? What are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah, we certainly we're not thinking of a black swan or rhino or whatever we call this, but, you know, it's been a pretty crazy couple of months for everybody. You know, when When this first started, we were like everybody else. Not sure how it impact our business. The interesting thing has been that you're in code. It actually brought a reality check through. A lot of companies and organizations realize that it's very few tools to respond quickly, right? Bond with, you know, cost pressures that we're urgent or preserving revenue, perhaps, or responding to Ah, strange resource is, you know, in all centers, or or built to support. You know, the surge in in, um, in the healthcare community. And so r p a became one of those tools that quickly waas knowledge and adopted. And so we went out two months ago to go find those 1st 1st use cases. Talk about him, then. You know, 1st 30 days we had 50 in production, right? Companies, you know, great organizations like Cleveland Clinic, right? You know where they use their parking lot? Give the first tests the swab tests, right of, uh, well, who have proven right? You know, they had a line of 88 hours by, you know, putting a robot in place in two days. They got that line down by 80 or 90% right? It is a huge hit as we see that kind of a kind of benefit all across right now in the world. Right now we have. We were featured in The Wall Street Journal recently with nurses and a large hospital system in Ireland called Matter. The nurses said in the interview that, you know they have. They were able to free up time to be a patient's right, which is what they're there for, anyway, thanks to robots during this during this emergency. So I think you know, it's it's definitely raise The awareness that that this technology is provides an amazing time to value, and that's it's pretty unprecedented in the world of B two B software. >>I want to share some data with you in our community is the first time we've we've shown this. Guys would bring up the data slide, and so this is ah, chart that e. T are produced. There's enterprise technology research. They go out of reporter. They survey CIOs and I T practitioners and a survey in different segments and the use of methodology Net score. And this is sort of how method how Net scores derived. And so what this chart shows is the percent of customers that responded there were about 125 You I path customers that responded. Are you adopting new U I path? Are you increasing spending in 2020? Are you planning on flat spending or decreasing spending? Are you replacing the platform of beacons? And so basically, we take the green, uh, subtract the read from the green, and that gives us net score. But the point is that Bobby abouts about 80% of your customers are planning to spend Maurin 2020 than they spent in 2019 and only about 6% of planning on spending less, which is fairly astounding. I mean, we've been reporting on this for a while in the heat nous in the in the automation market generally and specifically. But are you seeing this in the marketplace? And maybe you could talk about why? >>Well, we just finished our first fiscal quarter into the end of April, and we're still privately held, so we can be, uh, find some insights of our company, but yeah, the the pace of our business picked up actually in in the mark. April timeframe. Um, customer adoption, large customer adoption. Um, the number of new new companies and new logos were at a record high. And, you know, we're entering into this quarter now, and we have some 20 plus $1,000,000 deals that are like that. It closed, right? I mean, that's probably a 30% increase Versus what? How many we have today alone. Right? So our business, you know, is is now well over 400 million and air are we ended last year, 3 60 and the growth rate continues fast. I think you know what's interesting is that the pace of the recode world was already fast, right? The the luxury of time has kind of disappeared. And so people are thinking about, you know, they don't have they can't wait now, months and years for digital transformation. They have to do things in days and days and days and weeks. And and that's where our technology really comes into play. Right? And and and it actually is also coming to play well in the world of the remote workforce. Reality two of the ability for remote workers to get trained while they're home on automation to build automation pipelines to to build automation. Now, with our latest release, you can download our podcast, capture and report what you're doing, and it basically generates the process definition document and the sample files, which allow for faster implementation by our center of excellence. So what's really happening here? We see it is a sense of urgency coming out of this. Prices are coming down the curve. Hopefully, now this is of urgency that our customers are facing in terms of how they respond, you know, and respond digitally to helping their business out. And it varies a lot by industry, our state and local business was really thinking was not going to be the biggest laggard of any industry picked up in a significant way in the last couple of months, New York State, with Governor Cuomo, became a big customer of ours. There's a quote from L. A County, see Iot that I've got here. They just employed us. It's public, this quote, he said. Deputy CIO said Price is always the mother of invention. We can always carry forward the good things they're coming out of this crisis situation. He's referring to our P A is being a lesson. They learned hearing this, that they're going to carry forward. And so we see this state of Oklahoma became a customer and others. So I think that's that's what we're seeing kind of a broad based. It's worldwide. >>You're really organizations can't put it off anymore. I think you're right. It sort of brought forward the future into the present. Now you mentioned 360 million last year. We had forecast 350 million was pretty good for you guys released, so it's happy about that. But so obviously still a strong trajectory. You know, it might have been higher without without covert. We'll never know, but sort of underscores the strength of the space. Um, and February you guys, there was an article that so you're essentially Theo Dan, Daniel Hernandez was quoted. Is that on hold now? Are you guys still sort of thinking about pressing forward or too early to say right? >>Yeah. I mean, I think I think the reality is we have a very, very strong business. We've raised, you know, significant money from great investors, some of which are the leading VCs in the world. and also that the public company investors and, you know, we have, ah, aggressive plan. We have an aggressive plan to build out our platform for hyper automation to continue. The growth path is now becoming the center of companies of I, T and Digital Strategies, not on the side. Right. And so to do that, you know, we're gonna want capital to help fuel our our our ambitions and fuel Our ability to serve our customers and public markets is probably a very, very logical one. As Daniel mentioned in a in a A recent, uh, he's on Bloomberg that he definitely sees. That is ah, maybe accelerating that, You know, we're late Last year, we started focusing on sustainable growth as a company and operational regular. These are important things in addition to having strong growth that, you know, a long term company has to have in place. And I can tell you, um, I'm really excited about the fact that we, you know, we operate very much like a public company. Now, internally, we you know, we do draft earnings releases that aren't public yet, and we do mock earnings, earnings calls, and we have hired Thomas Hansen is runs our chief revenue officer with storage backgrounds. And so you're gonna interview as well. These are these are these are the best of the best, right? That joint, they're joined this company, they're joining alongside the arm Kalonzo the world that are part of this company. And so I think, Yeah, I think it's an AR It's likely. And and it's gonna We're here to be a long term leader in this decade of automation. >>Well, and one of the other things that we forecast on our breaking analysis we took a look at the total available market kind of like into it. Early days of service Now is you know, people were really not fully understanding the market and chillin C it is is quite large, so video. So when we look at the competition, you know, you guys, if I showed you the same wheel with automation anywhere, it would also look strong. You know, some of the others, maybe not a strong but still stronger than many of the segments. I mean, for instance, you know, on Prem hardware. You know, compared with that and you know the automation space in general across the board is very, very strong. So I wonder if maybe you could talk a little bit about how you guys differentiate from the competition. How you see that? >>Yeah, I think you know, we've We've come a long way in the last three years, right? In terms of becoming the market leader, having the highest market share, we're very open and transparent about our numbers with We've long had the vision of a robot. Every person, uh, and and we've been delivering on that on on that vision and ah, building out a platform that helps companies, you know, transform digitally enterprise wide. Right. So, you know, I don't see any of our competitors with a platform for hyper automation like this. We have an incredible focus on the ability to help people actually find the ideas, build the pipeline, score the pipelines and integrate those with the automation center of excellence. Right? We have the ability now with our latest release to help test automation testers now not only in the world of art A but actually take robotic robots and and architecture into doing test automation. The traditional test automation market in a much better and faster way So you know, we're innovating at a pace that that it is, I think, much faster than I don't. I don't know automation anywhere. I won't share any their numbers. You know, who knows what the numbers are. We have guesses, but I'm fairly certain that we continue to gain share on them. But you know, what's most important is customer adoption, and we've also seen a number of customers switch from some of our competitors to us. Our competitors are undercapitalized and middle. Invest in R and D. This is an investment area, really build a platform out from our competitors have architectures that are hard to upgrade, right? This has been a big source of pain for companies that have been on our competitors. Where upgrades are difficult requires them to retest every time where our upgrades are very rolling, you know, are very smooth. We have an insider program which you know, I don't think any of our competitors have. If you go inside that you had pat that your customer every single bit every single review betting, private preview, public preview and general availability, you can provide feedback on and the customers can score up new ideas. They drive our our roadmap. Right. And this is I think we operate differently. I think our growth is a is a good indication of that. And, you know, and there are new competitors like Microsoft. But I think you know, you know, medium or long term, you know, they're gonna make effort around our, um and you know, they're behind the, um, automation is really hard. The buried entry here is not it's not. Not easy. And we're going to keep me on that platform, play out, and I think that's ah, that's what makes us so different. Um and ah, you know, we have the renewal numbers, retention numbers, expansion numbers and and the revenue numbers to improve that, uh, you know, we're number one. >>Well, so I mean, there's a lot of ways to skin the cat, and you're right. You guys are really focused, you know, you automation anywhere really focused on this space, and you shared with us how you differentiate there. But as you point out Microsoft, they sort of added on I had talked to Allan, preferably the day from paga. You know, those guys don't position themselves as our PC, but they have r p A. I talked to, you know, our mutual friend Robert Young John the other day, right? They're piling onto this this trend, right? So why not? Right, It's it's ah, it's hot. But so, you know, clearly you guys are innovating there. I want to talk about your vision before we get into the latest product release two things that I would call out the term hyper automation with, I think is the Gartner term. And then it will probably stick. And then this this idea of a robot for every person How would you describe your vision? >>Yeah, I mean, we think that robots can and improve, you know, the the lives of of or pers everywhere, right? We think in every every function, every role. And we see that already, the job satisfaction and the people don't want to do the mundane, repetitive work, right? The new hires coming out of college, you know, they're gonna be excel and sequel server. We're no longer the tools of productivity. For them, it's it's your path. We have business. Schools that have committed top tier business schools have committed to deploying your path or to putting you're passing every force in the school these students are graduating with the right path is their most important skill going into companies. And they're gonna expect to be able to use robots within their companies in their daily lives. A swell. So, you know, we have customers today that are rolling out a robot for every person you know. We had Ah, Conoco Phillips on just earlier in our launch, talking about citizen developers, enabling says, developer armies of developers and growing enterprise wide. See, Intel was on as well from Singapore, the large telco. They're doing the exact same thing. So I think you know, I think this is this is this is this is about broad based digital transformation. Everybody participating And what happens is the leading companies to do this, you know, they're going to get the benefit of benefits out of it. It can reinvest that productivity, benefits and data science and analytics and serving customers and in, you know, and and, ah, new product ideas. And so, you know, this is this. You know, automation is going to fuel now the ability for companies to really differentiate and serve their customers better. And it's only needed enterprise wide view on it that you really maximizing. Take Amazon, for example, a great customer during during this prices. You know, they're trying to hire hundreds of thousands of people, right? Help in the fact that in their in their distribution centers elsewhere, this all served demand to help people who like you and I home or ordering things that we need, right? Well, they're use your path robots all throughout their HR hr on boarding HR recruiting HR administration And so helping them has been a big during this prices surge of robots is helping them actually hire workers. You know another example of Schneider Electric and amazing customer of ours. They're bringing their plants, their manufacturing facilities, implants back online faster by using robots to help manage the PPE personal protective equipment in the plant allow people workers to get back to work faster. Right? So what's happening is is, you know in that in those cases is your different examples of robots and different functions, right? In all cases, it's about helping grow a company faster. It's about helping protect workers. It's about helping getting revenue machines back up and running after Kobe is going to be critical to get back to work faster. So I'm I'm really excited about the fact that as people think about automation across the organization, the number of ideas and Aaron opportunities for improvement are are we're just starting to tap that potential. >>Well, this is why I think the vision is so important because you're talking about things that are transformative. Now, as you well know, one of the criticisms of RPS. So you have people, the suppliers and just yeah, we, you know, looking at mundane tasks, just automating mundane tasks like sometimes paving the cow path and say, you're very much aware of that criticism. But if I look at the recent announcements, you're really starting to build out that vision that you just talked about. They're really four takeaways. You sort of extending the core PAP platform, injecting AI end some or and more automation end to end automation really taken that full lifestyles lifecycle systems view and the last one is sort of putting it talks to the robot. For every person that sort of citizen automation, if you will, that sort of encompasses your product announcements. So it wasn't just sort of a point Announcement really is a underscores the platform. I wonder if you could just What do we need to know about you guys? Just that out. >>So we think about how we think about the rolls back to a division of robots person how automation can help different roles. And so this product launch $20 for this large scale launch that you just articulated, um, impacts in a fax and helps many different kinds of new roles Certainly process analysts now who examined processes, passes performance improvements. You know, they're a user of our process mining solution in our past. Find a solution that helps speed on our way. Arpaio engine, no testers and quality engineers. Now they can actually use studio pro and actually used test robots are brand new, and our new test manager is sort of the orchestration and management of test executions. Now they can participate in in leveraged power of robots and what they do as well. And we kind of think about that, you know, kind of across the board in our organization across the platform. They can use tools like you have path insights in Europe. If you're an analyst or your, uh ah. B I, this intelligence person really know what's going on with robots in terms of our wife for my organization and provide that up to the, you know, sea levels in the board of directors in real time. So I think that's that's the big part. Here is we're bringing, and we're helping bring in many, many different kinds of roles different kinds of people. Data scientist. You mentioned AI. Now data scientists can build a model. The models applied to ai fabric an orchestrator. It's drag and drop by our developer in studio, and now you can turn, you know, a a mundane, rules based task right into an experience based ones where a robot can help make a decision right. Based on experience and data, they can tweak and tune that model and data scientists can interact, you know, with the automation is flowing through your path. So I think that's how we think about it, right? You know, one of the great new capabilities, as well as the ability to engage line workers, dispatch out workers If you're a telco or or retail story retail store workers you know the robots can work with humans out in the field. We've got one real large manufacturer with 18,000 drivers in a DST direct store delivery scenario. And you know the ability for them to interact with robots and help them do their job in the field. Our customers better after the list data entry and data manipulation, multiple systems. So I this is this makes us very unique in our vision and in our execution. And again, I don't I have not heard of a single ah example by competitors that has any kind of a vision or articulation to be able to help a company enterprise wide and, you know, with the speed and the and the full, full vision that we have. >>Okay, so you're not worried about downturns. You can't control black swans Anyway, you're not worried about the competition. It feels like you know, you're worried about what you're worried about. You want about growing too fast. Additionally, deploying the the capital that you've raised. What worries you? >>Yeah. You know, we're paranoid or paranoid company, right? And when it comes to the market and and trying to drive, I think we've done a lot to help actually push the rock up the hill in terms of really, really driving our market, building the market, and we want to continue that right and not let up. So there's this kind of desire to never let up, right? Well, we always remind ourselves we must work harder, must work harder. We must work harder. And that's that's That's sort of this this mentality around ourselves, by the smartest people. Hire the smartest people you work with our customers, our customers are priority. Do that with really high excellence and really high sincerity that it comes through and everything that we do, you know, to build a world class operation to be, you know, Daniel DNS. When I first met him, he said, You know, I really want to be the enemy of the great news ecology company that serve customers really well. And it was amazing things for society, and and, you know, we're on that track, but we've got, you know, we're in the in the in the early innings. So, you know, making sure that we also run our business in a way that, um, you know, uh, is ready to be Ah, you know, publicly successful company on being able to raise new sources of capital to fund our ambitions and our ideas. I mean, you saw the number of announcements from our 24 release. It reminded me of an AWS re invent conference, where it's just innovation, innovation, innovation, innovation. And these are very real. They're not made up mythical announcements that some of our competitors do about launching some kind of discovery box doesn't exist, right? These are very real with real customers behind them, and and so you know, just doing that with the same level of tenacity. But being, you know, old, fast, immersed and humble, which are four core culture values along the way and not losing that Azeri grow. That's that's something we talk about maintaining that culture that's super critical to us. >>Everybody's talking about Okay, What What's gonna be permanent? Postpone it. I was just listening to Julie Sweet, CEO of Accenture, and she was saying that, you know, prior to Covic, they had data that showed that the top 25% of companies that have leaned into digital transformation were outperforming. You know, the balance of their peers, and I know question now that the the rest of that base really is going to be focused on automation. Automation is is really going to be one of those things that is high, high priority now and really for the next decade and beyond. So, Bobby, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and supporting us in this in this r p. A drill down. Really appreciate it, >>Dave. It's always a pleasure as always. Great to see you. Thank you. >>Alright. And thank you for watching everybody. Dave Volante. We'll be right back right after this short break. You're watching the cube. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] me [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] me [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] um [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so so [Applause] so [Music] so welcome to cyber security insights we're excited to talk to you today about some of the key developments in the cyber security area let me start off by saying you know security's always been a board room topic boards care about it but right now it's actually getting even more important given what's happening covered 19 given the risk the world faces the fact that 70 percent of the workforce is now really working from home at vmware we have all of our employees working for we made that a mandate not just required but we're taking a cautious approach as to how they come back that's the reality of many of our customers but the bad guys are not staying still 148 increase in ransomware during this time they're just looking for every way to take advantage of innocent people working at home and then we've seen 52 percent increase of all attacks in the march time frame targeting the financial sector so it's very important that you we have a different approach to security because our belief is the security industry has been broken uh you'll see on this chart 5000 odd vendors 15 or 20 different categories and it's often i described like going to a doctor to stay healthy and she tells you you've got to take 5 000 tablets and you fall off your chest and that's just not possible you know so how do you prevent staying having 5000 tablets taking 5000 tablets to stay healthy you eat your vegetables your fruit your proteins drink your water you make it part of your hygiene and that's what needs to happen in security we've got to move away from this bolted on approach siloed approach where you've got you know various differences feels like even 5000 tablets 5000 security tools are all kind of like healthcare deem themselves very important and also from security that's just focused on threats and the new approach needs to be one that's more built-in intrinsically part of the platform like making a part of your diet more unified as opposed to just siloed across all of the key pillars of security and a lot more context-centric rather than just threat centric to do this we've been looking at kind of the value proposition of vmware we're you know about a 10.8 billion dollar company and have played across these three or four layers off being a digital foundation for the world any cloud any app any device with intrinsic security you've seen this from us several uh over the last several years what we've sought to do is layer into that diagram five or six important control points in security that we think are going to be super important to make security intrinsic let's start off on the bottom right corner of this with network security we think a new approach for network security means that if you look at data center networking or firewalls or load balancing or sd-wan what is a 30 billion dollar opportunity a new approach you know could be one way you could have in one platform all of those capabilities in something that's more software-defined that's what we've been doing uh in with nsx a platform some customers call us sort of the tesla of networking because we're taking a somewhat you know traditional hardware-defined approach to networking and building a more software-defined networking stack for security much the same way a tesla is building a software-defined car if you go to the left-hand side you see kind of the endpoints but it's two different forms of endpoint an endpoint that's on the client side near the device a laptop tablet a phone or a endpoint that's closer to the server a workload or a container and in both areas we believe we have an opposition proposition to really be the best uh security solution for endpoint and workload security identity we think there's a tremendous opportunity to be the best solution that not just some ourselves but also partners with the best of breed players for example um octa or azure active directory in cloud security we're going to do a lot ourselves for example cloud security posture management but we're also going to partner with the likes of well web gateways and and proxies like z scale or netscope and then analytics is the big kahuna because the more data that you have the more equipped you are to prevent breaches and what we believe here is this notion of what the analysts are now calling xdr collecting telemetry from all of these control points which we have exposure to network endpoint workload identity cloud and having one big data lake where you reason over this with a variety of behavioral and ai algorithms and then provide the best way by which you can protect customers from possible future security events this is something we well best because we actually collecting the most telemetry of anybody from disparate different sources and you're gonna only see this increase so vmware's proposition uh as you look at this we today have a billion dollar security business i know you're gonna listen to that and say wow where did that come from some customers call us one of the best kept uh security secrets in the industry uh a significant about that comes from network security a growing part of it now comes from endpoint security we think the opportunity is to take that billion dollar business it's about 20 000 odd customers and double or triple that by really focusing in these five or six control points you're going to see us build the best products in each of these categories but one that's intrinsic and also works between them in ways that are incredible let me give you a couple examples with carbon black we're going to make it agentless on the server side with vsphere nobody else can do that we're going to do that and you're going to see that very soon with carbon black we're going to make it unified with workspace 1 on the console so you have a unified approach there on both the console and the agent something that you also start seeing from us very soon these are things that nobody else in users can do network security you're going to see from one platform data center networking load balancing firewalls and sd-wan beautiful security-centric networking story so this is the approach for folks and now i think as we listen to several of the thought leaders and analysts you're going to hear them get into this story in more detail thank you very much let's continue in this show cyber security insights and now we'd like to explore the unified approach of security and i.t how do you unify them as a foundation for success our special guest today is chris sherman who's senior analyst at forrester and a pretty renowned security uh researcher and thought leader himself chris welcome to the show great to be here with you sanjay you know i'm sitting here in my living room in cleveland ohio as we uh ride down the curve right fighting off a cabin fever and staying healthy hope you're doing the same chris i'm doing well but listen i look at your beautiful looking um you know i can't confess that my background is my natural i've got a virtual background is that actually your living room or is that a virtual background it is this is my living room we built the house last year and it's also my little private iot lab because you know i'm a huge nerd and i love my devices we've been you know kind of a big fan of a lot of the forester research zero trust security you mentioned your research and iot uh i.t security and i'd like to explore this a little further with you chris i'm a big fan of your research read a lot of your stuff uh but let's kind of focus in you know clearly in this time having security strategy and i.t strategy be together in this current climate many organizations have had to pivot uh due to covert 19. you know one example is employees having to work at home which raises a whole host of cyber security issues and you know having reviewed the research results it makes them i think even more relevant the need for security and i.t to join forces i believe right now to defeating the cyber criminals during the pandemic um so that we don't have this risk and quite frankly you know we've been finding the risk is even higher because the bad guys aren't sleeping uh even if there's a crisis going on so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about this research and your findings absolutely yeah so you know i think the genesis of this research really started with a conversation i had with some of your team members back in november uh we talked about you know the high level of friction between these two teams right between i.t and security and frankly the lack of support that a lot of the existing tools in the market really have for you know integrating the two and when you look across the industry there really aren't a whole lot of resources for buyers or you know technology strategists that you know want to understand these dynamics and you know this is really what led to vmware commissioning forester to uh you know this past february to survey over 1400 security and it ops decision makers across the globe we really wanted to probe those dynamics right you know what's holding companies back from eliminating this friction right this really was actually the largest sample size of any commissioned study that i've been a part of here at forester and it really led to some excellent results and and data as you know from the uh published research i'm looking forward to to reading them and knowing more about it and you know i think if you think about the research and uh you know there's a shift in security driving alignment and collaboration security and it's you know kind of the top initiative we see in the next 12 months uh maybe even tell us about why the relationship between these security and id teams um you know are important whys have been strained across both you know all three of people process and technology yeah i mean so i team security really are two sides of the same coin right but unfortunately their teams have struggled to work well together for many years according to our survey date it's gotten to the point where 83 of both team staff report a negative relationship between the two it's very unfortunate but there are many reasons for this you know many reasons for this friction especially with the vp director and manager roles between the security and the ite teams you know at a high level most of this is driven by the fact that security and i.t have differing priorities right our data backs us up you know you have i.t on one side that's focused on technology efficiency and uptime and from our conversations with it staff it's clear you know they view security as philosophically opposite you know to this right often as roadblocks to accomplishing their goals and then on the other side security's top priority is as you'd expect responding to security events and incidents and preventing compromises and this difference in priorities is the source of a lot of friction also both security and i.t staff are really unhappy with the technology that the tools specifically that they're using or the security tools the c cios and csos you know that we talked to all had the same complaint they have too many disjointed tools in fact the average across our study was 27 security products on average in each organization and even the most established security solutions like take firewalls for example you know it caused some serious angst right we found that only 52 percent of respondents felt that their firewalls were satisfactory in terms of the performance and the security uh efficacy i think you know listen a couple of points i'll point point out from what you talked about that resonate deeply with us one is when you talked about uh i don't know it was 25 or 27 odd tools i'd be surprised the number of csos i talked to who say it's in the dozens one i think i always sort of keep a record for the number of tools i've heard one tell me it was like 100 different security tools i asked you know him was there a hundred different consoles so it's just the number of tools and consoles uh the other one that you resonated with me was even in one of the more mature areas like firewalls you would have thought oh people are really happy there we find the same level of dissatisfaction with people saying listen traditional hardware-based approaches appliance-based approaches lots of policy way way too complicated um now let's talk a little bit about staffing i think it's it's you know listen at the end of the day security is a team sport it does depend on products and processes and technology but there's also people and you know we security teams are understaffed they're increasingly dealing with a complex portfolio of these non-integrated products how uh is this impacting teams and what can companies you do as you advise them to reduce complexity from the plethora of different products that are often point products today well you're right right finding and training the right item security staff is really critical to the success of the respective teams unfortunately this continues to be a major pain point right across the whole industry in fact 64 of the security teams that we surveyed and 53 of the it teams reported they're understaffed but yeah i mean amid this global pandemic when most organizations are focused on surviving and you know maybe keeping the lights on or i guess in this case maybe the vpn's running right and getting by with limited resources and protecting an increasingly remote workforce it's much more difficult to collaborate and work together across teams but our data showed that one of the major results of this you know the formation of communication silos you know teams aren't communicating enough right they're they're communicating within their or organization designed for their particular use case right with very little integration and collaboration across those silos and you know this is where tools could help right most of the time though they the tools actually just reflect or amplify those silos by reinforcing the division right between the two teams ultimately organizations may be looking for technologies that can support the needs of both it and security right this will help alleviate any tension that might arise over things like competition over limited resources right ideally once the teams come together and agree on goals as well as objectives and and measures of success for that matter right they can address their technology stack inherent complexity wisely said listen the security attacks are becoming more sophisticated uh organizations are considering now i think the approach as you've described is a unified strategy to address these critical issues uh can you tell us more about how you've seen these unified approaches to security strategy being effective well so i mean it seems like we've been talking about unifying the tools and strategies by you know i.t ops and security for years right but it's only been recently that we've seen the two sides really demonstrate any appetite to actually do so unfortunately most of the tools again right on the market are focused on one or the other and integrations are only starting to really accelerate to the point where our true unified vision is even possible this not only aligns teams under common goals right having a common tool set but it also aligns workflows between those two teams and helps foster collaboration uh listen uh you mentioned a couple of these these examples are really good for people to kind of grop you know in this have you uh outside of these exams or any other sort of tangible results uh that you think companies can expect uh as they bring together their security and id strategies and make them more unified what are the results from your research you think customers can expect to gain yeah there are several other you know clear benefits right that we identified in this research right the benefits to unifying the tech stacks between it ops and security our research showed that companies with a unified strategy reported fewer security incidents fewer data breaches which makes sense right given how critical endpoint configuration and overall i.t hygiene is to the security posture of an organization also you know building security capabilities directly into the it infrastructure helps to motivate non-security staff to take some ownership right over basic security fundamentals and this all helps speed right this this increases the speed to you know both detect new threats and uh respond once they're you know identified you know time to containment right this was also validated by our survey data a common strategy really can empower both to you know mitigate risk ensure continuous compliance and improve you know their threat response uh workflows you know between the two teams really companies need to find tools that meet the needs of both teams and at the end of the day as you pointed out security is a team sport right we all benefit from working together to protect the business and its employees right from malicious actors especially in these difficult times that's great chris thank you for uh your research um um so i just encourage all of you are listening um if you want to um you know get chris's research um you know go to this url on the screen here and you'll be able to download it uh we're excited about it i mean listen you know personally when i watch it teams and security teams sometimes sort of spar each other um you know i i i think that increasingly whether the security team reports under the cio sometimes that's the case sometimes security teams report into the chief legal officer or they report maybe into the cfo wherever reporting structures are only you have to build a team sport because there's aspect of this that's policy aspects of this that are technology there are aspects of this that are people uh thank you for this research chris as always i'm a fan of uh the stuff as are all of we and what you're right so it's always good to be able to see more this is also much of the other extended uh forest to work like zero trust that have become kind of the things that i've seen now becoming more pervasive in the industry so thank you all for listening to this uh and we hope we'll continue to serve you in the course of this program cyber security insights with more insights like this it's my pleasure right now to also continue this uh cyber security insights series now with a wonderful interview um with the head of security and infrastructure at circle k suzanne hall um i've had a chance to briefly meet her prior to this and she's got an incredible vision of how infrastructure security comes together uh in the context of retail so i'm looking forward to the discussion suzanne thank you for joining us today thanks sanjay glad to be here great hey listen maybe i'll start with um you know circle okay some folks may know you in the locality in the areas where they shop or whatever have you but many folks around the country may not and we're assuming there'll be a very large audience watching this tell us a little bit about the company what you guys do uh what's your vision and how are you serving uh customers and consumers oh terrific oh well yeah so circle k uh many people do not realize it's actually a canadian-owned company we are a global uh convenience and fuel service organization uh with with offices all across north america uh large part of northern europe um and with franchises in a large part of asia as well we're the second largest convenience store company in the world and the 11th largest retailer we yeah we acquired circle k the brand um back in the early 2000's and uh our goals right now over the next five years are to try and double in size um which is a pretty aggressive goal goal considering uh our organization which really is taking a you know 60 billion dollar organization and trying to double that in the next five years so wish us luck let's focus now a little bit more on the infrastructure and security part of it um it's interesting that you own both as you think about those areas um you know how are they linked together and what have you been doing to tie uh infrastructure topics and security topics which are often you know you have a ciso and then a cto owns infrastructure in your case you own both and i think it's a classic way in which you know we're trying to kind of get traditional it teams the security work world to go you're living it then you're breathing and you're implementing your team uh how is it working out and how are you making it work yeah oh sorry it was actually a key part of me being attracted to the to this world i've been here about 18 months um i really feel for certain organizations culturally if you can make it work where security operations can function together um it really empowers your security team to move things quickly and it also gives me the opportunity to take ultimately super scarce resources from the security side and build uh more security acumen within my network teams and my hosting teams and my infra um so that i get actually really smart technologists that also get security collaborating with really great security folks that also get technology there's a lot of synergies that i that i get from that from combining these two organizations and where circle k was before i got here you know we we um did need to rapidly mature a lot of our security program um because it had just um grown uh i think the organization grew beyond the competencies of the security team before i got here and so by having both sides of that house i was really able to move things quickly um kind of i don't have to i don't have to uh negotiate between the network team and the hosting team the security team because they all report up to me and i get i get to pick who wins all the time so it works really well i'd love to talk to you but just cover it it's on on everybody's mind it's changed transformed how we all work you and i are doing this interview work from home uh if we were doing it in different concerts i have to come to you or come to us we have done this in the studio together or in an event um and certainly it's you know kind of changing the ways in which we work and family life and so on and so forth but how is it changing your business how is it changing your i.t organization uh and how have you had to adapt to um you know this time that we're sheltering place work at home yeah well it's really it's changed everything for us as i'm sure for for most of your of your clients as well um you know obviously serp okay being convenience we are uh on the front lines we are open across the globe we may have some small stores that may get closed for periodic periods of time or maybe some shortened hours but we've got convenience workers and gas station workers working around the globe through coven so we've had to change how the stores look and feel um we've had to rapidly deploy things like curbside delivery to really adjust to uh customers um wants and expectations and then we've had to take the entire back office and put people working at home which was not our culture um before this all happened and we had to do that almost like in watching a wave go across the globe as it started uh offices started closing in northern europe first uh and then and then all the way through to ireland and then and then obviously the east coast and canada and all the way through to the west coast so um we actually had a very short period of time to create a remote working uh operation um luckily enough um we had some really talented folks we put a couple different solutions in place and uh within two weeks or so we were able to get everybody working remotely that could work remotely and then that really empowered us to support all those operations folks that needed to get things like plexiglass into the stores hand sanitizers into the stores masks uh um into the stores uh to serve our customers and to serve our staff i'd like to move on um then to the um the kind of the context of this infrastructure and i.t workers and security work i.t teams and security teams working better together one of the things we find often and we did some research with forester that where companies performed well and had great you know security prevention practices breaches places where i t and security work well together and traditionally often csos uh may be separate from the infrastructure team sometimes csos don't even report into ci support elsewhere and that can be uh not intensely so sometimes intentionally but often just a silo or a warring mentality you're good evidence now where you're bringing these together let's talk a little away from technology for a second and the people process collaboration how have you been able to bring these cultures together so that they work together for the common good of either cost saving protection whatever have you yeah you know um and so i've had the benefit of being a cso and a cio and a couple different organizations and also i was in i was in consulting for many years i worked for a big four uh from a letter of cyber practice with one of the big four firms and i'll tell you cyber programs uh move fast forward best when there's a couple of key elements in place and the first one is you have to have shared goals anytime that the cyber team is trying to implement something um in that the network team isn't on board with or the network team picked a tool they don't want to implement the tool that the cyber team is as um and has selected i mean that's that's always a recipe for failure so somehow you have to really work on aligned goals and i do that even though i own the infrastructure teams and the security teams um nobody's successful if we're not all successful together and really focusing on what does success look like for for each one of the each one of our areas and look sometimes you know we do have to take some uh educated risks in the environment you know for responding to things quickly but we also don't take we don't um let those risks sort of linger and and never get remediated right so we really work together to make sure that any new risks that we're taking on we have a focus on how we're going to mitigate that and we hold ourselves accountable and um and the network team is equally accountable for responding to security events as a security team is the key element i also say to my security teams is when you're working with production operations teams and and folks you've got to have skin in the game you've got to recognize that they're trying to keep systems up and running 24 7 you know for the operations of the organization right so we can take credit cards and cash in the stores and make the sales and deliver the goods and services when we need to if the security team isn't seen as fully on board with that mission and that um that responsibility then there's there's a non-equity sort of relationship going on between the two different teams so you really need to bring them all together and make sure that everybody um understands supports each other's wins and goals it's awesome that you've been a cio and a ciso and you've seen all of these in various different companies i'm sure maybe in smaller bigger wherever have you so you're able to really relate to that uh i find the csos i talk to uh most of my relationships in the years past have been with cfos and cios uh i set myself a personal goal this year as we started getting more into security as i've been shaping that strategy of the company to meet a thousand cesars i was 15 years ago at symantec and most of the csos i know are retired and moved on so uh it's a good new way of my understanding and i find as i talk to them so refreshing the ones who are strategic like yourself uh have had tremendous experience in id or are also owned them and are able to paint a vision that's very collaborative as to as opposed to ones who don't then are also able to strategically bring teams together so it's really good to to see that i'd like to kind of just work a little bit more into security because i mean your strategy plays into the reason we're quite carbon black um and you i have some obviously you know knowledge and investment vmware but i'm listening as i was listening to prior to getting on to this you know program together you're probably doing more with carbon black which is awesome i mean it'll probably strengthen our relationship with vmware too and of course but we can talk a little bit about that what's been your history carbon black why you picked them and where do you see that going on the endpoint security um and then i'll talk a little bit about how we're trying to try that into infrastructure too yeah so um so my relationship with carbon black goes back to uh almost right after i first arrived at circle k um obviously i know uh from having come from consulting a number of different uh tools and products out there um although carbon black always had a really good reputation and strength and um i went to carbon black pretty early on and said you know here's my here's my situation i've got a little bit of carbon black and a little bit of other things in different places i really want to standardize on a single tool i really want to get to a better visibility of my overall network and of my of my risks and ultimately i want to have a single pane of glass but um that you know i've got folks working from an eyes on 24 7. um you know carbon black hands a table really quickly and had a great vision uh for how they could get us uh standardized across some different versions that we had um and when i said okay i want to do this in six weeks or fewer um they didn't say we can't make that happen um i think a lot of people on my team wish that they'd said that we can't make that happen but um but now we were able to really rather quickly um deploy and and get up to speed across all of our stores across all of our networks all of our you know we're a very distributed organization i've got offices all across north america and europe um and uh and we were able to in six weeks get get standardized and get things up and running and i had gained great visibility uh in that and i'm a big believer when looking at all sorts of tools whether they're input tools or security tools that you know you can tell whether or not you've picked the right solution if it's fit for purpose relatively quickly if it feels like it's too hard to implement if it just feels like it's you're not getting the value out of out of something in a relatively quick period of time you really do need to look at whether or not the tool you're looking at is fit for purpose in your environment and i would say the carbon black team and the carbon black tool that made it really easy for us and um you know it's giving us great visibility we have been able to uh detect and respond to a number of different instances you know retail is a very uh high threat high target industry these days um so it's been it's been super helpful in us defending um circle k in our environment and with 130 000 employees i suspect your number of endpoints are in the tens of thousands on the client side and probably just as many in terms of server-side endpoints right so your your kind of surface area of potential endpoints is pretty large oh indeed and you know but you know you have over 15 000 stores every store has multiple point of sale systems and at multiple uh computers laptops tablets devices um and that's and that's even before i go out into the uh what we call the forecourt which is where the gas dispensers and pumps are so yeah it's very complex well listen we look forward to that journey together part of what she has talked about here is a key part to our vision uh folks listening to this is to basically bring together security to make it key parts of the infrastructure both in the endpoint the network and the cloud thank you for your partnership i look forward to getting to know you and your team better um thank you also for all you're doing to serve the community during these tough times especially those workers at circle key that are the front line in the stores we appreciate you tremendously and we look forward to continuing this dialogue thank you very much thank you thank you everybody for watching this cyber security insight segments titled security as a team sport we talked about the shift in security and how security is moving to a shared responsibility model in this team sport in this segment we also discussed the benefits of a consolidated security and an i.t strategy that allows for fewer breaches and a faster response to security incidents as key benefits that have implemented a common strategy for those who have done this i encourage all of you to watch this part two of cyber security insights the securities of dual mission and we will have two security leaders discussing how security helps not only protect but help drives the business forward thank you all for watching this segment [Music] you

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from the cubes East coast studio offices and joining me is one of our cube alums from the earliest cube event that we ever did. He's also one of our guests hosts a long time friend of the program. Someone I've known for a long time. John Troyer, the chief reckoner at tech reckoning. John, so good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Hey Steve. Thanks for having me on dialing in here from sunny half moon Bay, California. >>All right, well John, you know, first of all it's been good to talk to you a bunch. You know, normally, uh, we would be seeing you at a number of the conferences of course, with today's global pandemic. Uh, it stopped us seeing in person, but I tell you a month ago you held the influencer marketing council and it was one of those weeks where it was just kind of everything's changing. The world is upside down. And it was just so nice to talk to, you know, so many of our peers in the community, the people that we've known for a long time and just, you know, commiserate a little bit at first and then, you know, all share as to how we're moving forward and what we're doing. So, you know, bring us up to speed as to, you know, what you're seeing out there in the community. >>Sure, sure. Well, let's do, I mean that's one of the ironies of, of the place we're at here, right? We are learning that connection is so important. We know it is, but we tend to lump it in together with conferences and with sales calls and seminars, webinars, and we're learning that this kind of connection, these relationships are what we as humans are built on. And also what business is built on businesses, built of relationships. So I work a lot with, uh, companies doing work with their practitioner, communities with advocacy, customer advocacy, partner, advocacy with influencers outside their ecosystem. These kinds of relationship based ways to get attention in ways to fill the, you know, the funnel and um, you know, they've really kind of been both pulled apart and, and, and put center stage on this current with our current pandemic. >>Yeah. It's interesting cause you think about like, you know, what was online before and there and a lot of communities you think about, you know, the forums there, the way you communicate, um, you know, lots of online things. Sure. Meetups are a huge part of what goes on and those big events that you get together. So is there anything you've seen that's drastically changed obviously from an event standpoint, you know, w we'll spend some time talking about virtual events, uh, and the like, but you know, influencer groups, uh, the, you know, kind of V experts and MVPs of the world. Uh, you know, has there been any immediate impact on those groups? >>Well, sure. I mean they're all, a lot of times there are, like you said, there is a component of offline as well as online to these programs. I mean going back to the vendor side, the org charts are, are always confused in the first place. Does this belong in digital? Does this belong somewhere else? But the best programs always have face to face meetings. And of course those are off the table now. So that, that really of levels the playing field in a certain way, you still have people at home, the people who are working are working harder than ever. A lot of layoffs in the industry. So those people are kind of, uh, either, you know, trying to cope. Some of them are, have time for more creative outlets. So we're seeing a resurgence in people making content and discussions in online forums and online discussion. So that's really interesting. A lot of >>John John sourdough bread, you forgot the sourdough bread. >>Bacon, sourdough bread. I made some this morning. It was pretty good. You know, the nice thing is it levels the playing field, right? Whether you're in Croatia or Cleveland or, or you know, the middle of Silicon Valley, you can start to attend these things. I mean, I know some folks who were saying, you know, I was hampered by attending meetups because I, you know, I have a family or a childcare, I job duties and now they're able to attend virtually. So even if they, even if it's in a different city. So in some ways this is a great leveler. This, this allows us everyone to participate to the level of their interest and their energy, you know, but there are downsides. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the questions, they were always the people like, Oh, I'm feeling left out because I'm not at that event. Well, you know, absolutely. You mentioned, you know, the home strains are there, you know, if you had a family situation that might've kept you from traveling, well, chances are you probably have some family things that might not free you up to be able to spend, you know, multiple hours doing things. But it shifts it and it does level the playing field. So, right. You know, whether I'm sitting in Bangalore, India, you know, somewhere in Croatia or you know, in Silicon Valley, uh, they're all sitting at home right now. And you know, all looking through their webcams and talking through the internet. So um, sounds like right, they're there. Um, I'm curious if you think there will be lessons learned and it is early days of course, but one of the questions we say is, you know, what will we have the takeaway from there and what will be permanent? Um, when we talk about say communities and how we engage with them. >>Well the whole kind of community developer relations space is, is always a little bit, uh, it's a little bit aside from revenue producing, right? So it's not quite straight marketing, it's not really revenue producing. So there's always a tension there in the, in the tech community, the folks that are connected to their business, the folks that are, have developed relationships and have that already created asset of these, of these existing relationships are doing well, especially if they're connected back to their business. Cause this is a time to make those connections to retrench. My family is talking a lot more and your ecosystem, your tech families should be talking a lot more of your customers and partners. So those folks are doing well. We've also seen a lot of layoffs because these are seen in some companies as not essential or as non. Yeah, just nonproductive. And if I got cut something, you know, the community team goes, if it's not strategically connected to uh, you know, back to back to the business. So I think one of the lessons is those relationships in a time like this are, are strategically important. And I mean, we can drill down on that, but I think that's going to be one of the takeaways that the companies that have built these networks and built their strong ecosystems are going to come out. The winners here, I >>mean, John, you brought up a big point here as we speak right now. I think the number in the U S is over the last five weeks, it's about 30 million people that are out of a job. Those are staggering numbers. I mean, it had been decades, you know, there was never a million of new unemployed here in 30 million. Just, you know, does boggle the mind. Um, then you have companies like Amazon that if I hired 170,000 people, and it's not just the manufacturing, uh, you know, in the, uh, and the distribution of things. I've seen people get hired by AWS, uh, during these times, but it is, uh, you know, it feels that there's a little bit of thawing on some of the movement of some people that had jobs frozen a month ago now seem that they are now moving through the system again there. But absolutely the financial ripples of what's happening here are something that is going to be with us for many quarters going forward. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the other lessons that we'll learn is the nature of events, right? We have a, we were in event overload. The cube is a witness to that. You're on the road many, many weeks a year. In fact, you have to, you have to clone yourself. You're, you're, there's so many. You have multiple teams out on the road during, during conference season, and a lot of people were saying, there's too much. I can't get this. There's just too many events. I can't go to the mall, I can't even pay attention to them. Well now we're trying to take all those events and school in, squirt them through the tiny pinhole of a digital experience and a Twitter and Facebook and video like this. You had a multichannel, very rich interactive experience. You could get somebody to commit and get away from their, uh, their house for a few days and pay attention. We're beginning, I think to rethink what this, how this marketing playbook works, right? The people event is from is, has many different roles. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Donna. I had been asking for a few years to dial down some of my travel. I didn't ask for it to go to zero. Um, so be careful what you wish for out there, but you know, good. You know, I'm glad you brought up the, you know, virtual events, digital events, whatever you want to call them. Um, we know as an industry that there is work to be done to make them better. Uh, you were just an interruption or a mouse. Click away from being pulled away, um, from this online environment. And everyone is learning as we go. We've been spending a lot of time working with companies, trying to learn lessons, trying to, you know, ask the questions about what is critically important and you know, engagement. That's tough. You know, we know community John is something that isn't that you just stand it up. It is constant care and feeding and when events going on community's a piece of that thing. Um, and you know, how do we maintain that in a virtual world? So anything you've seen that you like or things that you'd like to see more when it comes to, you know, how do we make things engaging and how do you make people feel welcomed and part of it rather than just I'm watching something on the web and streaming content at me. >>I think there's a few things. One is we're blowing the digital experience apart right there. There are multiple jobs to be done. There are multiple audiences. I went to a big conference today. I'm not a practitioner for this particular tech company. I'm not interested in all the breakouts. I am interested in the keynotes and I would be interested in some networking. So a large part of kind of community development relationship, all these, this relationship building happens during and after their dinners and receptions and things like that. So you can replace that and it doesn't have to be, you know, right after the big keynote. So we're, we're breaking these things apart. I see people, I've talked to different vendors, breaking big events into a series of smaller events, breaking it into audiences and executive series of events or practitioner series of events. And then I think frankly, the produced thing, the produce component of the show, uh, can, can use an upgrade to, I mean, I, I'm looking at the way our TV talk shows have adapted over the last month or two and they all started off with like a crappy web cam or, or an iPhone. >>And now that many of them are, have a very interesting format that have adapted to their hosts and their guests being both at home and separate. So you know that there's a, there's a psychological through comfort level and through line to having an anchor to having a host, things like that that maybe isn't necessary when you're there, your 5,000 people in an auditorium and clapping. It's just a different feeling. >>So John, are we calling to see, you know, which executive has a child that can help with some hand drawn, uh, slides and things that they can put up there? Uh, you never know. That'd be interesting. >>Many people have commented that they like the evening news now when the, when the kids and the wife and the dog and the, and the husband interrupt, right? It's, it's humanizing. And frankly that's my, that's my business. And that's what I help companies do is, is humanize themselves and, and, and the, you know, you can sprinkle a little bit in. I mean, we'll get tired of the kids hand drawn stuff, you know, if we're in, if we're at stay at home for too many more months. >>Yeah. You know, I kind of want our enterprise sales. Is that the message we want going through when we want you to do, you know, a subscription that will be millions of dollars a year, um, that there's a hand drawn thing. So a little bit of a gap between the enterprise, uh, and uh, you know what they might say, but you bring up a really good point, right John, that, that experience, uh, personalizing it absolutely is something that can be done. Uh, you know, one of the things we've been talking to all our of our clients about is you don't just take a physical event and lifted onto some website and think that, you know, you're going to have some success, that you need to think about that audience, focus on what they do. You know, we're always of course focusing on the cube is, you know, we want really good con, uh, content and you know, real conversations with people and, you know, you brought up, right, that that interaction that I get at shows. How much can I make people feel that I've talked to people. Um, you should be able to get more, you know, executive access. Uh, and if you're a customer, you know, I, I've heard some good things. It's like, Hey, you want to break out and talk to an se, you know, live on a chat. The platforms can enable that sort of thing. So you know, you to be able to talk, you want to be able to make it personal down to small groups or even individuals. Um, and there is the opportunity to do that. >>Yeah. A lot of times people talk about the hallway track. Yeah. You gotta realize the hallway track is not the same for everybody. If you have gone to the same conference for 10 years and you know a lot of the people and see familiar faces, the hallway track is great. You run into people, Oh, Hey, Oh, Hey, uh, and that's when the real work gets done. But if you are a newcomer to an ecosystem, if you are a new prospect coming in here, uh, even if I provided you the same virtual hallway track, it's, it's not gonna work for you. So again, we come back to the companies that have established these relationships, who have built these, uh, you know, have these onboarding experiences now are going to be the winners. If you just have a bunch of strangers, I mean, you might as well just do an hour webinar and see who you can spam, you know, get your, get your internal sales team to call everybody the next day. Right. >>Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking of, you know, the blogger lounge at VM world where, you know, you and I go and we know lots of people, but we also meet lots of new people because they show up and everybody is like, Hey, you need to meet all of these other people. So you're right. There's ways to be able to take those influencers and those people to help concierge, help make connections, um, and do those things >>well. A real core with tips though, single track things work really well for those scale events because you can just drop in, you know exactly what's live multi-track, very much harder to figure out what's going on live. I know it's live. The other thing I've seen from a lot of, uh, tech community events is an accompanying Slack with prerecorded talks and with the speaker then in different Slack channels, the speakers there, you can chit chat while it's live. So if Slack or any kind of chat, uh, but Slack, you know, if you're already in this community Slack, that works really well. So this kind of dual multichannel live interaction I think can be one of the things that works right away. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, little little plug that similar to what we'll have for dr Tom. So on the content tracks, uh, you know, most of them I believe will be, you know, recorded ahead of time. So those experts, you'll actually be able to ask questions, there'll be interacting in real time, uh, you know, whether you'd like it threaded or unthreaded. There's, there's options that we're choosing on that kind of stuff. All right. Uh, John, want to give you the final word? Uh, you know, obviously we're, we're kind of in the middle of things here. You know, it feels like we're in the new abnormal if it were, but you know, right here at the end of April, just about into may, some States are opening up. We don't know when we'll be able to go from 10 people to 25 to 50 or more people. So, you know, try trying to understand some of those pieces. What are you looking for going forward? Uh, any last tips you want to give the community? >>Well, I think, I think we're in, I think we're in kind of in here for a long haul. It's at least before we bring 80,000 a hundred thousand people together from all over the world. So you know, the old saw is, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The best, the second best time is today. You, you, you figure out what your metrics are, they're not going to be the same as the old metrics. You figure out what your, your audiences are looking for, what's in it for them. Do they want training? Do they want networking? And you start to deliver it to them. And you, and you iterate. None of us look community people and, and, and developer relations people aren't experts at digital marketing event. People aren't experts at digital marketing. In fact, they, all, the digital marketing people aren't experts at digital marketing in this context. So we're all learning and, and you know, it's gonna there's going to be a lot of money spent and we'll figure it out eventually. You know, I think over the course of this year, >>yeah, absolutely. It's the learning mindset is what we all need. Uh, the, the things that have, you know, brought my spirits up the most, are the communities engaging, uh, whether it's working on the pandemic or just, you know, sharing what they've seen, what they'd like to do better. Uh, that collaboration has been, uh, something really good to see. Alright, John Troyer great to see you as always, uh, look forward to, uh, talking much more with you in the future. And, uh, thanks again. Thanks for having me. Students stay safe. Alright, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks as always for joining us and watching the queue.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again