>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from the cubes East coast studio offices and joining me is one of our cube alums from the earliest cube event that we ever did. He's also one of our guests hosts a long time friend of the program. Someone I've known for a long time. John Troyer, the chief reckoner at tech reckoning. John, so good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Hey Steve. Thanks for having me on dialing in here from sunny half moon Bay, California. >>All right, well John, you know, first of all it's been good to talk to you a bunch. You know, normally, uh, we would be seeing you at a number of the conferences of course, with today's global pandemic. Uh, it stopped us seeing in person, but I tell you a month ago you held the influencer marketing council and it was one of those weeks where it was just kind of everything's changing. The world is upside down. And it was just so nice to talk to, you know, so many of our peers in the community, the people that we've known for a long time and just, you know, commiserate a little bit at first and then, you know, all share as to how we're moving forward and what we're doing. So, you know, bring us up to speed as to, you know, what you're seeing out there in the community. >>Sure, sure. Well, let's do, I mean that's one of the ironies of, of the place we're at here, right? We are learning that connection is so important. We know it is, but we tend to lump it in together with conferences and with sales calls and seminars, webinars, and we're learning that this kind of connection, these relationships are what we as humans are built on. And also what business is built on businesses, built of relationships. So I work a lot with, uh, companies doing work with their practitioner, communities with advocacy, customer advocacy, partner, advocacy with influencers outside their ecosystem. These kinds of relationship based ways to get attention in ways to fill the, you know, the funnel and um, you know, they've really kind of been both pulled apart and, and, and put center stage on this current with our current pandemic. >>Yeah. It's interesting cause you think about like, you know, what was online before and there and a lot of communities you think about, you know, the forums there, the way you communicate, um, you know, lots of online things. Sure. Meetups are a huge part of what goes on and those big events that you get together. So is there anything you've seen that's drastically changed obviously from an event standpoint, you know, w we'll spend some time talking about virtual events, uh, and the like, but you know, influencer groups, uh, the, you know, kind of V experts and MVPs of the world. Uh, you know, has there been any immediate impact on those groups? >>Well, sure. I mean they're all, a lot of times there are, like you said, there is a component of offline as well as online to these programs. I mean going back to the vendor side, the org charts are, are always confused in the first place. Does this belong in digital? Does this belong somewhere else? But the best programs always have face to face meetings. And of course those are off the table now. So that, that really of levels the playing field in a certain way, you still have people at home, the people who are working are working harder than ever. A lot of layoffs in the industry. So those people are kind of, uh, either, you know, trying to cope. Some of them are, have time for more creative outlets. So we're seeing a resurgence in people making content and discussions in online forums and online discussion. So that's really interesting. A lot of >>John John sourdough bread, you forgot the sourdough bread. >>Bacon, sourdough bread. I made some this morning. It was pretty good. You know, the nice thing is it levels the playing field, right? Whether you're in Croatia or Cleveland or, or you know, the middle of Silicon Valley, you can start to attend these things. I mean, I know some folks who were saying, you know, I was hampered by attending meetups because I, you know, I have a family or a childcare, I job duties and now they're able to attend virtually. So even if they, even if it's in a different city. So in some ways this is a great leveler. This, this allows us everyone to participate to the level of their interest and their energy, you know, but there are downsides. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the questions, they were always the people like, Oh, I'm feeling left out because I'm not at that event. Well, you know, absolutely. You mentioned, you know, the home strains are there, you know, if you had a family situation that might've kept you from traveling, well, chances are you probably have some family things that might not free you up to be able to spend, you know, multiple hours doing things. But it shifts it and it does level the playing field. So, right. You know, whether I'm sitting in Bangalore, India, you know, somewhere in Croatia or you know, in Silicon Valley, uh, they're all sitting at home right now. And you know, all looking through their webcams and talking through the internet. So um, sounds like right, they're there. Um, I'm curious if you think there will be lessons learned and it is early days of course, but one of the questions we say is, you know, what will we have the takeaway from there and what will be permanent? Um, when we talk about say communities and how we engage with them. >>Well the whole kind of community developer relations space is, is always a little bit, uh, it's a little bit aside from revenue producing, right? So it's not quite straight marketing, it's not really revenue producing. So there's always a tension there in the, in the tech community, the folks that are connected to their business, the folks that are, have developed relationships and have that already created asset of these, of these existing relationships are doing well, especially if they're connected back to their business. Cause this is a time to make those connections to retrench. My family is talking a lot more and your ecosystem, your tech families should be talking a lot more of your customers and partners. So those folks are doing well. We've also seen a lot of layoffs because these are seen in some companies as not essential or as non. Yeah, just nonproductive. And if I got cut something, you know, the community team goes, if it's not strategically connected to uh, you know, back to back to the business. So I think one of the lessons is those relationships in a time like this are, are strategically important. And I mean, we can drill down on that, but I think that's going to be one of the takeaways that the companies that have built these networks and built their strong ecosystems are going to come out. The winners here, I >>mean, John, you brought up a big point here as we speak right now. I think the number in the U S is over the last five weeks, it's about 30 million people that are out of a job. Those are staggering numbers. I mean, it had been decades, you know, there was never a million of new unemployed here in 30 million. Just, you know, does boggle the mind. Um, then you have companies like Amazon that if I hired 170,000 people, and it's not just the manufacturing, uh, you know, in the, uh, and the distribution of things. I've seen people get hired by AWS, uh, during these times, but it is, uh, you know, it feels that there's a little bit of thawing on some of the movement of some people that had jobs frozen a month ago now seem that they are now moving through the system again there. But absolutely the financial ripples of what's happening here are something that is going to be with us for many quarters going forward. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the other lessons that we'll learn is the nature of events, right? We have a, we were in event overload. The cube is a witness to that. You're on the road many, many weeks a year. In fact, you have to, you have to clone yourself. You're, you're, there's so many. You have multiple teams out on the road during, during conference season, and a lot of people were saying, there's too much. I can't get this. There's just too many events. I can't go to the mall, I can't even pay attention to them. Well now we're trying to take all those events and school in, squirt them through the tiny pinhole of a digital experience and a Twitter and Facebook and video like this. You had a multichannel, very rich interactive experience. You could get somebody to commit and get away from their, uh, their house for a few days and pay attention. We're beginning, I think to rethink what this, how this marketing playbook works, right? The people event is from is, has many different roles. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Donna. I had been asking for a few years to dial down some of my travel. I didn't ask for it to go to zero. Um, so be careful what you wish for out there, but you know, good. You know, I'm glad you brought up the, you know, virtual events, digital events, whatever you want to call them. Um, we know as an industry that there is work to be done to make them better. Uh, you were just an interruption or a mouse. Click away from being pulled away, um, from this online environment. And everyone is learning as we go. We've been spending a lot of time working with companies, trying to learn lessons, trying to, you know, ask the questions about what is critically important and you know, engagement. That's tough. You know, we know community John is something that isn't that you just stand it up. It is constant care and feeding and when events going on community's a piece of that thing. Um, and you know, how do we maintain that in a virtual world? So anything you've seen that you like or things that you'd like to see more when it comes to, you know, how do we make things engaging and how do you make people feel welcomed and part of it rather than just I'm watching something on the web and streaming content at me. >>I think there's a few things. One is we're blowing the digital experience apart right there. There are multiple jobs to be done. There are multiple audiences. I went to a big conference today. I'm not a practitioner for this particular tech company. I'm not interested in all the breakouts. I am interested in the keynotes and I would be interested in some networking. So a large part of kind of community development relationship, all these, this relationship building happens during and after their dinners and receptions and things like that. So you can replace that and it doesn't have to be, you know, right after the big keynote. So we're, we're breaking these things apart. I see people, I've talked to different vendors, breaking big events into a series of smaller events, breaking it into audiences and executive series of events or practitioner series of events. And then I think frankly, the produced thing, the produce component of the show, uh, can, can use an upgrade to, I mean, I, I'm looking at the way our TV talk shows have adapted over the last month or two and they all started off with like a crappy web cam or, or an iPhone. >>And now that many of them are, have a very interesting format that have adapted to their hosts and their guests being both at home and separate. So you know that there's a, there's a psychological through comfort level and through line to having an anchor to having a host, things like that that maybe isn't necessary when you're there, your 5,000 people in an auditorium and clapping. It's just a different feeling. >>So John, are we calling to see, you know, which executive has a child that can help with some hand drawn, uh, slides and things that they can put up there? Uh, you never know. That'd be interesting. >>Many people have commented that they like the evening news now when the, when the kids and the wife and the dog and the, and the husband interrupt, right? It's, it's humanizing. And frankly that's my, that's my business. And that's what I help companies do is, is humanize themselves and, and, and the, you know, you can sprinkle a little bit in. I mean, we'll get tired of the kids hand drawn stuff, you know, if we're in, if we're at stay at home for too many more months. >>Yeah. You know, I kind of want our enterprise sales. Is that the message we want going through when we want you to do, you know, a subscription that will be millions of dollars a year, um, that there's a hand drawn thing. So a little bit of a gap between the enterprise, uh, and uh, you know what they might say, but you bring up a really good point, right John, that, that experience, uh, personalizing it absolutely is something that can be done. Uh, you know, one of the things we've been talking to all our of our clients about is you don't just take a physical event and lifted onto some website and think that, you know, you're going to have some success, that you need to think about that audience, focus on what they do. You know, we're always of course focusing on the cube is, you know, we want really good con, uh, content and you know, real conversations with people and, you know, you brought up, right, that that interaction that I get at shows. How much can I make people feel that I've talked to people. Um, you should be able to get more, you know, executive access. Uh, and if you're a customer, you know, I, I've heard some good things. It's like, Hey, you want to break out and talk to an se, you know, live on a chat. The platforms can enable that sort of thing. So you know, you to be able to talk, you want to be able to make it personal down to small groups or even individuals. Um, and there is the opportunity to do that. >>Yeah. A lot of times people talk about the hallway track. Yeah. You gotta realize the hallway track is not the same for everybody. If you have gone to the same conference for 10 years and you know a lot of the people and see familiar faces, the hallway track is great. You run into people, Oh, Hey, Oh, Hey, uh, and that's when the real work gets done. But if you are a newcomer to an ecosystem, if you are a new prospect coming in here, uh, even if I provided you the same virtual hallway track, it's, it's not gonna work for you. So again, we come back to the companies that have established these relationships, who have built these, uh, you know, have these onboarding experiences now are going to be the winners. If you just have a bunch of strangers, I mean, you might as well just do an hour webinar and see who you can spam, you know, get your, get your internal sales team to call everybody the next day. Right. >>Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking of, you know, the blogger lounge at VM world where, you know, you and I go and we know lots of people, but we also meet lots of new people because they show up and everybody is like, Hey, you need to meet all of these other people. So you're right. There's ways to be able to take those influencers and those people to help concierge, help make connections, um, and do those things >>well. A real core with tips though, single track things work really well for those scale events because you can just drop in, you know exactly what's live multi-track, very much harder to figure out what's going on live. I know it's live. The other thing I've seen from a lot of, uh, tech community events is an accompanying Slack with prerecorded talks and with the speaker then in different Slack channels, the speakers there, you can chit chat while it's live. So if Slack or any kind of chat, uh, but Slack, you know, if you're already in this community Slack, that works really well. So this kind of dual multichannel live interaction I think can be one of the things that works right away. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, little little plug that similar to what we'll have for dr Tom. So on the content tracks, uh, you know, most of them I believe will be, you know, recorded ahead of time. So those experts, you'll actually be able to ask questions, there'll be interacting in real time, uh, you know, whether you'd like it threaded or unthreaded. There's, there's options that we're choosing on that kind of stuff. All right. Uh, John, want to give you the final word? Uh, you know, obviously we're, we're kind of in the middle of things here. You know, it feels like we're in the new abnormal if it were, but you know, right here at the end of April, just about into may, some States are opening up. We don't know when we'll be able to go from 10 people to 25 to 50 or more people. So, you know, try trying to understand some of those pieces. What are you looking for going forward? Uh, any last tips you want to give the community? >>Well, I think, I think we're in, I think we're in kind of in here for a long haul. It's at least before we bring 80,000 a hundred thousand people together from all over the world. So you know, the old saw is, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The best, the second best time is today. You, you, you figure out what your metrics are, they're not going to be the same as the old metrics. You figure out what your, your audiences are looking for, what's in it for them. Do they want training? Do they want networking? And you start to deliver it to them. And you, and you iterate. None of us look community people and, and, and developer relations people aren't experts at digital marketing event. People aren't experts at digital marketing. In fact, they, all, the digital marketing people aren't experts at digital marketing in this context. So we're all learning and, and you know, it's gonna there's going to be a lot of money spent and we'll figure it out eventually. You know, I think over the course of this year, >>yeah, absolutely. It's the learning mindset is what we all need. Uh, the, the things that have, you know, brought my spirits up the most, are the communities engaging, uh, whether it's working on the pandemic or just, you know, sharing what they've seen, what they'd like to do better. Uh, that collaboration has been, uh, something really good to see. Alright, John Troyer great to see you as always, uh, look forward to, uh, talking much more with you in the future. And, uh, thanks again. Thanks for having me. Students stay safe. Alright, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks as always for joining us and watching the queue.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California at theCUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here for a special conversation with Michael Letschin who's the Director of Technical Advocacy at Cohesity, and John Troyer, Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning, also does a CUBE host, co-host's with us some events, certainly VMworld. Guys welcome to this conversation. >> Thank you. >> The title is Work-Life Balance: Is It Really That Simple? A topic that Cohesity, you guys are donating your session at VMworld on, to kind of give back and share data around, really an important issue, around work which is burnout, you know mental stability. There's always been a stigma, but that stigma now people are recognizing that, hey, you know what? if you need to take some time off, why not? >> Exactly. People are just getting just completely overworked at this point in IT. So we really talked about it about it and we thought it was a good thing to do something different than standard for tech companies nowadays sometimes. >> John, you and I have talked off-camera with The CUBE sets around the old IT adage, 'Do more with less!' Almost like banging people hard to do, and squeeze more profits out of it. You guys, VMware, certainly. When you were there, you had virtualization changed the game on the server landscape. But the old IT, they work hard. There's a lot of technical people working hard, and they're asked to do so many different things. And now as careers start to change, more pressure. >> Right, right. We're in a 24/7 world. The cloud is there. IT only really only gets noticed sometimes when things go wrong, and that's kind of a resume generating event. So people in our society, I think, there's a lot of pressure. >> So, tell about the session. I know it's a teaser, I wouldn't want to reveal too many cards here on the video, but what's going to be talked about in the session? What's the topic? What's some of the data? >> Well, we did a survey, we didn't even really promote it very much, out for IT professionals. We got 360 responses from IT professionals all over the world: North America, Europe, and beyond, from, ya know, people doing cabling in data centers, all the way to CEO's of companies, talking about IT burnout. And about what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, what symptoms they're having. And burnout is really not just being tired. Right, we think, ugh, I didn't get enough sleep, I'm burnt out. It is really a psychological disconnection from your work, from your purpose, from your coworkers. It's a feeling, I don't want to do this. It's really an F-U moment. Excuse me. [Laughing] >> You can, we're digital, you can say that. We have no FTC to worry about. Yeah, but this is important. I mean, people do want to do the good job, and we hear all this stuff, oh, 'admission driven companies,' but at the end of the day, if the work environment is not going to be conducive to people feeling good about themselves or being, ya know, kind of together, that's just huge. >> Exactly, and I think there's something to be said about getting that time. Not just enjoying what you're doing every day, but to keep doing that, sometimes you have to get away from that. And, I think that's a lot of what we found when we did the survey was people weren't always seeing that they could get away from it. They really felt pretty pressured to stay in. And sometimes it wasn't just from their management, either. We saw a lot of people that came back with comments even that some of the issues they had were, the community actually kind of pushed them into, they need to do more, they need to be out in the community. So, they were doing their day job, and now I've still got to do more, still got to go out and do more blogging, and I've got to do more training, I've got to do more certifications. Is it really helping your career? Is it helping your life? Is it helping your family? >> Work-Life balance has always been a topic, and you mentioned the community. Also, you add open source to that, too. There's more pressure there. That's like its own company. So you have the work-life balance, what are some of the pressure points you guys see? 'Cause I know living in Silicon valley, for me personally, the past 20 years, I know people personally, as well as stories from friends. This huge burnout, as entrepreneurs, CEO's, start up founders, they burn out a lot, there's failure involved, and you see depression and mental illness become a big topic, people are talking about it. And it's out in the open now, it's not hidden, it's not one those things. What's the IT equivalent, what's going on in the world that you guys have uncovered in the survey? >> Well, certainly some pretty similar, a lot of it is hours worked, right? You're on call a lot, you're traveling a lot. Pressures get worse as you get higher in the organization. We in the survey, we just saw, there's a lot of science to say you shouldn't be working more than 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week, once you get over that you're actual overall work productivity plummets. And we saw a lot both in Europe and the U.S., people work not only more than 40 hours a week, but outside of business hours as well. And they are even connected on vacation. >> And, interestingly, a lot of them weren't because they had to. Like, it wasn't, they were oncall or a shift job. So, you kind of expect, you're going to work weird hours. If you're an early on help desk person, you're on call, you have that two weekends a month, or whatever, you kind of expect that it's kind of the norm. But a lot of these people are management, director level, VP level, that are still working all these extra hours and are working 40, 50, 60 hours a week, and feel like that's what they have to do. >> And often they don't feel like they're in control. So, even the executives, so it's a normal, right, if you're, again, if you're an individual contributor, a lot of stuff is out of your control, if you're a middle manager. But even the folks who are senior said 'I don't feel like I can control my work.' And that seems to be a big part of psychological fulfillment that you need to have the strength to keep, you know, to keep working hard every day. >> And the digital tools make us more connected, it's only compounds that I think. Because, you could be at the sideline of your kids soccer event or sport, you're still checking your email, still the distractions of the screen are there. >> Well, I think that was something, one of the things that came out of it was the number of people that do not disconnect, and are on 24/7, with their personal and their work, especially in North America, was incredibly high on it. You get into Europe, it was a pretty significant difference. Pretty much across the board, I think it was like 85% stay connected on their personal and everything 24/7. >> Instagram, Facebook... >> People aren't giving up their Instagram or their Facebook when they're on vacation. But, they definitely for work side, I mean we saw 70-80% of people that were still somewhat connected for, even when, especially in North America, whether it was just their email, or they check their email once a day. And that's if they even took the vacations, cause that was something that I thought was pretty shocking on how little people took vacation. I mean, I just saw another study that just came out the other day, that there was somewhere like, 270 billion dollars worth of vacation hours wasted last year in the U.S. >> Yeah >> You mean not used up? >> Not used. I think it was 270 billion, I think was the number I saw. Which is an absurd number of days off that people aren't using. >> It's a fascinating topic, and I think it's one of these cutting-edge societal challenges of the tech industry, needs to kind of put on the table. Because, you think about all the stuff we talk about in these conferences like DevOps. You automate away the heavy lifting, the undifferentiated heavy lifting. In life, you see that same kind of potential, I mean, if you can, if we can be more creative, you're seeing projects being more project based, less hourly work. So, is the working changing, does IT shift, what do you guys see there, what's the survey, is there any anecdotal data, or data around, how the types of jobs are changing? Is there more flex time, is there more project basis, more team oriented? Is there any shifts in, kind of, what you're seeing there? >> Well, in the survey we asked about are people talking about it at work? And are there programs? Are people acknowledging that this is happening? And for the most part people aren't really talking about it. I think there is more automation as we grow our data centers up and our cloud, but I don't see people, it just means people are doing more, which is where we started they're doing more with less. >> Well I do know that one of the things that we often see, from my previous shop as well as for here, with Cohesity it's the simplicity of what we can do, does tend to make those projects and those jobs easier, so it frees up some of that time that we weren't getting otherwise. I think, kind of going back, you mentioned a comment about the start up founders, and how quickly they burn out in Silicon Valley. I think it's not just the CEO, the people look at it and they see a startup founder and they think it's the CEO and the three people, but in all reality, if you're a startup that's 50 people and below, you're probably doing just as much time and you have that commit, like, it feels personal to you. I mean, it did to me. And I know for sure when I started at Nexenta, when it was pretty small when we there and as we grew, but also man, I felt some ownership in it. Which meant I did more, and I did more. I definitely got to a point where I was burnt out, I was very much burnt out and it became very obvious. I ended up on a, I hate to say it's a bender, but I was definitely on a bender for a nice long week for a vacation. >> Well, startups are kind of addicting but also so is the dopamine effect with digital and also work. Is there anything that you guys gleaned out of the surveys that were potential solutions to the problem on burnout? Were there any kind of unsolicited [Laughs], like, you know, this needs to change, was there any kind of obvious mandate that came out of the survey? >> So, I think there was some definites on management needs to be more prescriptive. That, that chaos is a big issue. If people don't know what they are there for and what they're doing it's a big issue on it. There was a lot of things about mindfulness, surprised we got quite a few comments on you just have to find that time to step away. There is going to be a little giveaway that I'm not going to give away at the session yet. But so if they are at the session, we have a little giveaway to help people with the mindfulness. >> What time is the session? What day? Where do they find the location? >> So it's on Wednesday at VMworld at 12:30. The location, I actually don't know the room yet because I don't think VMware has told us the room yet. >> Well, VMware World is moving back to Moscone from Vegas after the reconstruction is done out in San Francisco, so that's new. So check the location for the session Wednesday at 12:30. Any other burn out characteristics that we missed that you could share that's important? >> Well, I think the prescriptive thing, the management being more prescriptive is important. Taking, actually taking vacation. Unlimited vacation in some ways can backfire against you, because people don't take it, they don't have their two weeks. You know, the other thing is, I think, just, management has to build in enough profit to let people take some time off. >> It's an HR planning challenge too. >> Yes >> Did work at home come out at all on the survey? People working at home did that come into play? >> So I think it came more into play around the travel side of things than it did the work from home. We did see some interesting things on the travel, it seemed like if you did not travel at all those people tend to get burnt out at a higher rate. The people that travel all the time, really were pretty low on the ones that felt like they were getting burnt out. >> They were numb, they didn't know they were burnt out. >> I mean it could be because they didn't have the life part of the work-life balance, because they were always on a plane, I know that feeling, but I try to find the time. >> Yeah, people who work hard always have a spouse 'hey get off the computer,' or you know, there's paying attention to the things that are right in front of you like family for instance comes up a lot, that I see. >> Connecting to your purpose, whether that's your family purpose or your work purpose was a big part of it. Being able to kind of split your attention that way or get your attention back. >> Well, thanks for doing the survey, and that's a great service to the industry that Cohesity is doing, to use the session up rather than plugging the company's products and gear, to give back. >> Really I think it's super important for companies to have that social responsibility on it. And I think it's, it was a pleasure for me and our team to be able to talk to management and to be able to say, 'this makes sense,' and them agree. Which I don't think there's a lot of companies out there will, so I'm super excited to be able to have it. >> When you start getting the therapy going let me know I'll be the first customer. I need all the help I can get, everyone knows that here. Burnout's tough, it's an important issue to be talked about, and there shouldn't be a stigma associated with it. People can perform best if they are rested. That's well proven. So, congratulations on a great survey. While I've got you guys here I want to get your thoughts on VMworld 2019, it's theCUBE's 10th year covering it. John, you were working at VMWare, running the community, social media, podcasting, blogging, tweeting. >> Laughs: Some of those, yeah. >> When we there for the first year, you were there from the beginning, you've been with us the whole time, I want to personally thank you for being part of our journey, it's been great. A lot's changed in ten years and if you look back at the industry, two acquisitions today by VMWare, Paul Maritz took over the helm that year in 2010 from Diane Greene, laid out essentially Cloud, although it kind of didn't happen the way they thought it would happen, but, guys what's your take on ten years looking back at VMworld? What's the big moments of good, bad, and the ugly? >> To me, VMworld has been a great connecting point for the community. I don't think there has been another community and another network that has grown nearly like VM, where has done and what has happened with it. And VMworld's been a big part of that, I mean it was, whether it was VMworld in one part of the year and Partner Exchange in the other half, but it was that chance to actually see all those people that you talk to so often. I think it's been a world of difference for me. I think I've missed the first one, I think, is all I, maybe the first two. >> Yeah. >> If I remember right? So I've been at pretty much all of them along the way, but it's been unbelievable what VMworld has done for technology on making other companies realize how much bringing the network, your community together, really matters. >> The community piece, John, I want to give thoughts, was to me my observation in the past ten years has been, resiliency comes up, all the different changes in the landscape that we've seen, from the early days of theCUBE, now, to now, much different world. But you look at some of the things, the v0dgeball, the vBrownBags, the vundergrounds, all these things that were organic. VMworlds community when they find something that's good they double down on it, it hangs around, it doesn't really go away, you've got all these cool things happening. >> Well that's the secret of bringing people together both as a community of practice around their professional activity and raising the bar in their profession, their domain, and all that other good stuff happens. I think there's definitely some Vschool and PhD case studies to be written about the value of relationships and trust and ecosystem within VMware. Sure, Microsoft exists, there's other conversations going on in technology. But I think VMWare's is particularly interesting. I wanted to say though, from ten years, I mean ten years ago there was a lot of talk about private cloud, and true cloud, and all that sort of stuff, and you guys handle that at Wikibon, and SiliconANGLE, and theCUBE. But, the funny thing is now there's still a conversation going on around how dumb multicloud is and hybrid cloud is for this certain set of people. On the flip side there's trillions of dollars, much of whom is showing up, will be showing up in San Francisco next week. Trillions of dollars of business, you know, this year, solving real world problems today and not being such a pure architecturally or, I don't know, it just seems like, it's just, I'm just mystified that there's still all this multicloud is bad conversation. >> Well I think you brought up a point. The survey we were just talking about really kind of highlights what is becoming a thousand flower blooming kind of enablement happening. The societal challenges that are out there are being solved by software. And if you look at the focus this year of applications, microservices, it's really an application conversation. And it's so much that the infrastructure has to enable that, so finally, maybe this next ten years will be not about the under pinnings. >> So you're saying the next ten won't be the year of VDI? >> Laughing: I think that already kind of happened didn't it? >> It's a huge success, it's called the internet, right, smartphones. Good stuff guys. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it, good survey. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> John, thanks for coming on. A special CUBE conversation here previewing VMworld 2019 and the survey that they are talking about on Wednesday at 12:30 looking at burn out, check it out, by Cohesity, and John Troyer, TechReckoning, great survey. It's theCUBE, CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. [upbeat music]

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco. It's the CUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the CUBE. We're here in San Francisco live, wrapping up our third day of coverage at Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier. Great event and here, our special guest appearance as our closing analyst. I've been here all week with John Troyer. He had to leave early to get down to San Jose. John Troyer is the co-founder of TechReckoning, which is an advisory and community development firm and in his place we have Keith Norbie who's the Senior Manager at NetApp, doing business development, DevOps pro, former solidifier, really at the heart of the NetApp that's transforming. Here as my guest analyst, welcome, welcome to the CUBE. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thanks for coming in and sharing your knowledge. And to wrap up the show, really a lot going on. And I know you've been super busy. You had an appreciation of that last night with NetApp. You had customers there. But I really wanted you to come on and help me wrap up the show because you're also at the kernel of DevOps, right, where DevOps and storage, we were talking last night about the role of storage, but that's just an indication of what's going on across the board of all resources. Invisible infrastructure is the new normal and that is what people want. They want it to be invisible but they want that highly performant, they want it scalable. So roles are changing, industries are changing, application development is changing. Everything is changing with cloud scale at an unprecedented level and Red Hat is at the center of it with the kernel Linux operating system. It's all about the OS. >> Yeah. >> That's my takeaway from the show. What's your takeaway, what's your analysis here of Red Hat Summit? >> Well first off, you know, 7,000 people is a heck of a lot of growth. In some of the birthplaces of VM world, we have the new birthplace of open being real, and Red Hat's been the really the true company that's taken open and done something with it. >> What's the big, most important story for you here this week? What jumps out at you that jumps off the page and says, wow, that's happening, this is real, obviously open source, going to a whole 'nother level, the cat's been out of the bag for awhile on that, but really, it's just about the exponential growth of open source, Linux Foundation's Jim Zemlin talks about this all the time, so okay, that's not to me the most important, so that's just reality. >> Yeah. >> But what jumped off the page for you here? >> I think they said it best in one of the keynotes where they went from this being a concept of cheap to a concept of being functional or capable. So it's the c-to-c transition of cheap to capable and it is about trying to unlock the capabilities of what this show delivers, not just on Red Hat's platform but across the ecosystem. And as you see that play out in any one technology sector, you know, we've been talking DevOps which I think has been a phenomenal study in and of itself saying you know, we've gone from a lot of thought leadership a lot of, if you go to DevOps Enterprise Days, they'll talk a lot about culture and operational things to now seeing a maturation in the industry to actually have, you know, some very specific capabilities and customer (mumbles) models. >> I think the thing that jumped out, for me, Keith, I want to get your reaction to it, is that DevOps ethos, which has been around for awhile, not a lot, you know, a couple years, eight years maybe, since cloud really native really kicked in. But the ethos of open source, the ethos of DevOps, infrastructure as code is not just for software development anymore because as the things that are catalyzing around digital transformation, with Kubernetes becoming a defacto standard, with the role of containers, with server-less and all this infrastructure being programmable, the application market is about to go through a massive Renaissance, and you're seeing those changes rendered in the workplace. So the DevOps and open source ethos is going everywhere. It's not just development, it's marketing, it's how people manage their businesses and work force structure. You're seeing blockchain and decentralized applications on the horizon. This new wave is not just about DevOps for infrastructure as code, it's the world as code, it's business as code, it's everything as code so if you're doing anything with a waterfall, it's probably outdated. >> Yeah, everything has its different pace and its cadence in different industries and that's the hard thing to predict for everybody. Everybody that's coming here from different walks and enterprises of life is trying to figure out how to do this. And that permeates out into, you know, vehicles and IoT edge devices, back to the core part of the data centers and the cloud and you've got to have answers for really the three parts of that equation in different modes and ultimately equal a business equation, a business transformation. >> What did you learn here? I'll just tell you my learning, something that wasn't obvious that I learned that's validated in my mind and they didn't talk about it much on stage in Red Hat. Maybe they do off the record, maybe it's confidential information, maybe it's not. But my observation is that the Red Hat opportunity is really global. And the global growth of Red Hat, outside the United States and Europe is really where the action is. You look at Asia and third-world countries with mobile penetration. The global growth for Red Hat and Linux is astronomical. To me, that clearly came through, when I squint through the puzzle pieces and say, okay, where's the growth coming from? Certainly containers, Linux containers is going to be bigger than Rel, so that's going to be a check on the financial results. That's good growth. But it's really outside the United States. I'm like, wow, this is really not just a North America phenomenon. >> Yeah, and really, demand is demand. And at NetApp we see this in APAC almost more so than a lot of the other parts of the world. The pace of innovation and the demand for innovation you know, just kind of finds its way naturally into this market. You know, this whole community and open source approach you know, sort of incubates a lot more innovation and then the pace of the innovation, in my opinion, just by natural fellowship of these people. And the companies trying to innovate in the segment with these things. >> So what did you learn this week? What was something that you learned this week that you didn't know before or you had a hunch or you validated it here? What is something that's unique that you could share that you've learned or validated or have an epiphany? Share some color commentary on the show. >> Yeah, I think there's a little bit of industry maturation, where this technology isn't just like a Linux thing and a thing for infrastructure people trying to do, you know, paths or container automation or something technical. But it's equating out to industry solutions like NFE and Telco is a great example, you know, where all of us want to get to a 5G phone, and the problem is, is that they've got to build a completely reprogrammable, almost completed automated edge cloud type of network. And you can't do that with appliances, so they have to completely reprogram and build a new global scale of autonomy on a platform and it's awesome how like complex and how much technology is there and what it really comes down to is us having a faster phone. (laughter) It's amazing how you have all that, and it equals something so simple that my 14-year old daughter, you know, can have a new obsession with how fast the new phone is. >> I mean, (mumbles) digital transformation in all aspects, IoT edge, you mentioned that, good stuff. I got to ask you, while you're here, about NetApp, obviously, SolidFire, a great acquisition from NetApp, some transformation going on within NetApp. What's going on there? You guys got a good vibe going on right now, some good team recruiting. You guys recruit some great people, as well as the SolidFire folks. What's going on in NetApp? >> Well, yeah, I was part of the SolidFire team and that was a great group of people to really see the birth of the next generation data center through that lens of the SolidFire team. As we've come to NetApp now, we've really seen that be able to be incubated into the family of NetApp, really into three core missions, you know, modernizing data centers, you know, with an all flash approach to the ONTAP and FAS solutions, taking the SolidFire assets and really transforming that to the next level in the form of an HCI solution, you know, which is really to deliver simplicity for various consumption of economics and agility of operations within an organization. And then, you know, having that technology also show up in the marketplace at Amazon and Azure. And this week we announced Google. So it's been fun to see, not just the SolidFire thing come to life in its own mission, but how that starts to federate in this data fabric, you know, across three different missions. And then when it really gets exciting, to me, is how it applies into things that help people transform their business, like we talked DevOps and unlocking that and some of the config automation with Ansible, unlocking it some of the things with open shift that we're doing with Trident in the container automation across three of our platforms. And then seeing how this also comes to life with other factors with code and RD factory management or CIC piplup Jenkins. It's about tying this entire floor together in ways that makes it easy for people to mature and just get more agile. >> And it's a new growth for the ecosystem. We're seeing, you know, some companies that try to get big venture-backed financing, trying to monetize something that's hard to do if you're not Linux. I mean, Linux's a free product. It's all about Linux and the operating system. So, Linux is the enabler. >> Absolutely. >> To all of this and whoever can configure it in a way that's horizontally scalable, asynchronous and with microservices architecture wins the cloud game, 'cause the cloud game is just now creating clear visibility. The role that open source plays, being open I mean, look at the role that Hypervisor closed and proprietary, harder to innovate in a silo. If you're open, innovation's collective, collective intelligence. >> And I thought that one of the keynote demos, on Day One, Tuesday morning, to me, was one of the more powerful ones, where they showed a VM environment being transformed into container automation. Like literally a SQL environment being on into a container-based environment from previously being in a VM environment. And traditional IT doesn't have to do a whole lot of heavy lifting there. You know, people want that ability, kind of inch into it and then transform at their own time scale. >> Yeah, I think the big takeaway from me here in the show to kind of wrap things up is Red Hat has an opportunity to leapfrog the competition in way that's not a lone wolf kind of approach. It's like they're doing it with a collective of the whole. The second thing that jumps out at me, I think this is really game-changing for the business side of it is that because they're open with Linux and the way the ecosystem's evolving around cloud, the business issues that enterprises face, in my opinion, is really about, how do I bring in the new capability, okay of cloud, cloud scale and all asynchronous new infrastructure and applications without killing the old? And containers and Kubernetes and Openshift allow companies to slow roll the lifecycle or let workloads either live and just hang around or kind of move out on their own timetable, so you get the benefits of lift and shift with containers without killing the existing old ways while bringing in new innovation. This, to me, is an absolute game changer. I think it's going to accelerate the adoption to cloud. And it's a win-win. >> Absolutely. Transform agility. >> Cool, well Keith, thanks for coming on. Any final thoughts from yourself here on the show observations, anecdotes, stories? >> You know, sometimes less is more and this show has, you know, in a lot of ways both gotten more complex, but I would argue also much more simple and clear about directional paths that organizations can take. And that is working backwards from cloud what cloud is teaching the rest of us is that both, you know, functions more so than technology, and agility in terms of the ability to consume at the pace of the business. Those two things are the ways to take all this complexity and simplify it down into a couple of core statements. >> Someone asked me last night, what I thought about the current situation in the industry and I want to get your response to this, and get your reaction. I said, if a company is not making tweaks to their business, they're probably not positioned for success, meaning, with all the new things that have developed just in the past 12 to 18 months, if they're not tweaking something in some material, meaningful way, not like, not completely replatformizing or changing a business model. A tweak, whether it's to their marketing, or their tech or whatever, then they're probably stuck. And what I mean by that is that new things have happened in the past 18 months that are moving the needle on what the future holds. And to me, that's a tell sign when someone says is someone doing well? I just look at 'em. Well, they were kind of just doing the same thing they did 18 months ago. They really, they're talking a game, but they're not changing anything. So if they're not changing anything, it's probably broken. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, it was best said in terms if you look at the the Fortune 100 right now and contrast that with, you know, 10 or 15 years ago and it's a different landscape. And projecting that out another even five years, the rate of acceleration on this is a brutal scale. And so any company that's not thinking through transformation, you know. My kids are the future consumers. You know, they grew up as digital natives. You know, we're all migrants and they just automatically assume all these things are going to be there for them in their rhetoric, in their rationale. And the current companies of today have got to figure that out, you know, and if they don't start now, you know, they might be out of business in five years. >> If you're standing still, you get rolled over. That's my opinion. CUBE coverage here, of course, wrapping up our show here at Red Hat Summit 2018. We've been in the open all week here in the middle of the floor at Moscone West in San Francisco, live for the past three days. All the footage on Silicon Angle.com as to articles from our reporting, the CUBE.net is where all the videos will live and check out wikibon.com for all the research. Keith, thanks for being our guest analyst in the wrap up, 'ppreciate it and congratulations on all your success at as Business Development Exec at NetApp and the SolidFire stuff. Great you coming on. DevOps culture going mainstream. Software's powering the world. This is the programmable world we live in powered by Linux. Of course, the CUBE's there, covering it. Thanks for watching. Red Hat 2018, we'll see you next show.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in live in San Francisco, California, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, with John Troyer my co-host analyst this week he's the co-founder of TechReckoning Avisory Community Development Firm, of course I'm the co-host of theCUBE, and this is Harry Mower, Senior Director of Red Hat Developer Group within Red Hat. He handles all the outward community work, also making sure everyone's up to speed, educated, has all the tools. Of course, thanks for coming and joining on theCUBE today. Appreciate you coming on. >> Thanks for having me again. >> Obviously developer community is your customers. They're your users, Open Source is winning. Everything's done out in the open. That's your job, is to bring, funnel things and goods to the community. >> Harry: Yes. >> Take a minute to explain, what you do and what's going on with your role in the community for the Red Hat customers. >> Sure, so my group really handles three things. It's developer tools, our developer program, and the evangelism work that we do. So if I kind of start from the evangelism work, we've got a great group of evangelists who go out, around the world, kind of spreading the Gospel of Red Hat, so to speak, and they talk a lot about the things that are about to come in the portfolio, specific to developer platforms and tools. Then we try to get them into the program, which gives the developers access to the products that we have today, and information that they need to be successful with them. So it's very much about enterprise developers getting easy access to download and install, and get to Hello World as fast as possible, right? And then we also build tools that are tailored to our platform, so that developers can be successful writing the code once they download-- >> John F: And the goal is ultimately, get more people coding, with Linux, with Red Hat, with Open Source. >> Harry: Yep, it's driving more of, I mean from inwardly facing it's driving more adoption of our products but you know, outward, as the developer being our customer, it's really to make them successful and when I took over this role it was one of the things we needed to do was really focus on who the developer was, you know, there's a lot of different types of developers, and we really do focus on the nine to five developer that works within all of our customers' organizations, right? And predominately those that are doing enterprise jobs are for the most part, but we're starting to branch out with that, but it's really those nine to five developers that we're targeting. >> Got to be exciting for you now because we were just in Copenhagen last week for CubeCon with Kubernetes, you know, front and center, we're super excited about that's defacto formation around Kubernetes, the role of containers that's going on there, really kind of give kind of a fresh view, and a clear view, for the developer, your customer, where things are sitting. So how do you guys take that momentum and drive that home, because that's getting a lot of people excited, and also clarifying kind of what's going on. If you're under the hood, you got some Open Stack, if you're a developer, app develop you've got this, and then you've got orchestration here and you got containers. Kind of the perfect storm, for you guys. >> Harry: Yeah and what we've been trying to distribute in the container space, so one of the things we do we have these kind of 10 big bets that we put on a wall that really drive our product decisions, right? And one of the first, maybe the second one we put on the wall was, everything will be in containers, right? And so we knew that it was important for developers to be able to use containers really easily, but we also knew that it's an implementation detail for them. It's not something that they really need to learn a lot about, but they need to be able to use, so we made an acquisition last year, Code Envy was the company, driving force behind Eclipse J, one of the great features of Eclipse J, a lot of people see it as a web based IDE, but it's also a workspace management system, that allows developers' development environments to be automatically containerized, hosted and run on Open Shift at scale, right? And when we show the demo it's really interesting because people see us coding in a browser and "Oh that's pretty neat", and then at the end of it everyone starts to ask questions about the browser part, and I say, "Yeah, but did you notice we never typed a docker command, never had to learn about a Kubernetes file, it was always containerized right from the very beginning, and now your developers are in that world without having to really learn it". And so that's really a big big thing that we're trying to do with our tools, as we move from classic Eclipse on the desktop to these new web based. >> So simplifying but also reducing things that they normally had to do before. >> Yeah. >> Using steps to kind of. >> Yeah, we want to, people don't like when I say it, I don't want to try make them disappear into the background but what I mean is it's simple and easy to use. We take care of the creative room. >> Now is that, that's OpenShift.io? Is that where people get started with that? >> Actually Eclipse J. >> Okay, Eclipse J, okay. >> So it starts in Eclipse J, and then we take that technology and bring it into io as well. >> Gotcha gotcha, can you take a little bit about io then? You know, the experience there, and what people are doing. >> Sure, yeah so io is a concept product that we released last, well we announced last year at Summit. It's really our vision of what an end to end cloud tooling platform is going to look like. Our bet is that, many of our customers today take a lot of time to customize their integrated tool chains, because of necessity, because someone doesn't offer the fully integrated seamless one today. Many of our customers like their little snowflakes that they built, but I believe over time, that the cost of maintaining that will become something that they're not going to like, and that's one of the reasons why we built something like io. It's hosted managed by us, and integrated. >> And what are people using it for? Is this for prototyping, is this, what are people doing on the system? >> Today it's mostly for prototyping, one of the things we did here at this week's Summit is we announced kind of a general availability for Java developer using public repose. Up until this point it's always kind of been experimental. You weren't sure if your data was going to be gone if it was up or down, there's much more stability and kind of a more reliable SLA right now for those types of projects. >> John T: Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I mean, pivoting maybe to the overall developer program, so developers.redhat.com, big announcement yesterday, you reached a million members, congratulations. >> Harry: Thank you very, yeah, thanks a million is what I put in my tweet. It's been a really great journey, I started it three years ago, we consolidated a number of the smaller programs together, so we had a base of about two, 300 ish developers, and we've accelerated that adoption, now we're over a million and growing fast, so it's great. >> What's the priorities as you go on? I mean all of these new tools out there and I was just talking with someone, one of your partners here, we were out at a beer thing last night, got talking and like waterfall's dying in software development but Open Source ethos is going into other areas. Marketing, and so the DevOps concepts are actually being applied to other things. So how are you taking that outreach to the community, so as you take the new Gospel, what techniques do you use? I mean, you're tweeting away, you going in with blogging, content marketing, how are you engaging the content, how are you getting it out in digital? >> Our key thing is the demo, right? So you saw a lot of great demos on stage this week, Burr Sutter on our team did a phenomenal job every day with a set of demos, and we take those demos, those are part of the things we bring to all the other conferences as well, they become the center stage for that, because it's kind of the proof of concept, right? It's the proof of what can be possible, and then we start to build around that. And it helps us show it's possible, it actually helps get our product teams coelest around our idea, they start to build better products, we bring that to customers, and then customer engagement starts early, but that's the key of it. >> I mean demos the ultimate content piece, right? >> It forces everybody to, on the scene-- >> Real demo, not a fake demo. >> And those were all real, that's the thing the demos are so good I think some of them people thought they were fake. I'm like Burr you didn't do a good enough job of like pulling the plug faster, and showing it was real, right? But they're, yes, they're absolutely real demos, real technology working, and that creates a lot of momentum around. >> You guys see any demographics shifts in the developers, obviously there's a new wave of developers coming in, younger certainly, right? You get the older developers that know systems, so you're seeing coexistence of different demographics. Old and young, kind of playing together. >> Yeah, so there's a full spectrum of ages, a full spectrum of diversity, and geography, I mean, it's obvious to everybody that our growing markets are Asia, it's India and China right now. You'll see, you know, Chinese New Year we see a dip in usage in our tools, you know, it's very much, that's where the growth is. Our base right now is still predominately North America and EMIA, but all the growth is obviously Asian and-- >> John T: (mumbles). Harry I wanted to talk about the role of the developer advocate a little bit. It's a relatively new role in the ecosystem, not everybody understands it, I think some companies use a title like that in very different ways, can you talk, it's so important, this peer to peer learning, you know, putting a human face on the company, especially for a company like Red Hat, right? Built from Open Source communities from the ground up. Can you talk a little bit about what is a developer advocate, and am I even getting the title right? But what do they do here at Red Hat? >> Yeah so it's funny, so an evangelist is an advocate, and how do you distinguish the difference? So I spend a lot of time at Microsoft, you know, I think they pioneered a lot of that a long time ago, 10 or 12 years ago, really started doing that, and those ideas have matured, many different philosophies of how you do it. I bring a philosophy here and at work and with Burr, that, you know, it's one thing to preach the Gospel, but the end goal is to get them into Church, right? And eventually get them to, you know, donate, right? So, our evangelists are really out there to convince and you know, get them to adopt. Other models where you're an advocate, it's about funneling, it's almost like a marketing, inbound marketing kind of role, where you're taking feedback from the developers and helping to reshape the product. We do a little bit of that, but it's mostly about understanding what Red Hat has, 'cause when people look at Red Hat they think that's the Linux I used to use, I started in college, right? And for us we're trying to transform that view. >> John F: Huge scope now. >> And that's why we're more of an evangelistic organization. >> I mean Linux falls in the background I mean with cloud. Linux, isn't that what the old people used to like install? Like, it's native now. So again, new opportunities. And Open Shift is a big part of that. >> Yeah and we work hand in hand, there's actually an Open Shift evangelism team that we work hand in hand with, and their job is really more of a workshop style engagement, and get the excitement, bring them to that, and then do the engagements and bring it in. >> John F: What's the bumper sticker to developers? I mean obviously developer's mind sheer is critical. So they got to see the pitch of Linux helps a lot, it's all about the OS, what's the main value proposition to the developers that you guys are trying to have front and center the whole time? >> Harry: For Red Hat specific? >> Yeah yeah. >> It's funny, we just redid all of our marketing about the program, and specifically it's build here, go anywhere. And for two levels, right? With using Red Hat technologies, being part of the Open Source community, you can take those skills and knowledge and go anywhere in your career, right? But also with our technology, you can take that, and you can run it anywhere as well. You can take that technology and run it roll on prem, run it on someone else's cloud, and it really is just, we, you know, we really give the developers a lot of options and possibilities, and when you learn our products and use our products, you can really go anywhere. >> So Harry there's a, I loved how you distinguished at the very beginning of the conversation who the program is for, and that particular role, right? I sit down and I code enterprise products and glue stuff together and build new things, bring new functionality to the market, shit, excuse me, this week has been all about speed to market, right? And that's the developers out there, right? See I get so excited about it. >> That's okay, you can swear. >> (mumbles) >> But you know, there's a lot of shifting roles in IT, and the tech industry, over the last, say, decade or so, you know, do we spec the people who we used to call system mins, do they have to become developers? Open Source contributors also are developers. But it sounds like maybe the roles are clarifying a little bit, other than, you know, an Open Shift operator, you know, doesn't have to be a developer, but does have to be, know about APIs and things, how are you looking at it? >> I don't have too strong an opinion on this, but when I talk to other people and we kind of talk about it, you know the role of the, so we made operations easy enough that developers can do a lot of it, but they can't do all of it, right? And there's still a need for operations people out there, and those roles are a lot around being almost automation developers. Things that you do like an (mumbles) playbook or, you know, what other technology might use, so there is an element of operations people having to start to learn how to do some sort of coding, but it's not the same type of that a normal developer will do. So somehow we're meeting in the middle a little bit. But, I'm so focused on the developer part that I really don't have too strong an opinion. >> Well let us know how we can help, we love your mission, theCUBE is an open community brand, we love to get any kind of content, let us know when your big events are, I certainly want to promote it sir. Open Source is one, it's winning, it's changing and you're starting to see commercialization happen in a nice way, where projects are preserved upstream, people are making great products out of it, so a great opportunity for careers. And building great stuff, I mean new application start-ups, it's all over the place so it's great stuff, so congratulations and thanks for coming on theCUBE. It's theCUBE, out in the open here in the middle of the floor at Moscone West, bringing all the covers from Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be right back with more after this short break, I'm John Furrier, with John Troyer, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat SUMMIT 2018, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are here live in San Francisco at Moscone West. This is theCube's exclusive coverage of Red Hat SUMMIT 2018. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCube. This week John Troyer, guest analyst, he's the co-founder of TechReckoning, an advisory and consulting firm around community. Our next guest Matt Hicks, Senior Vice President of Engineering at Red Hat. He's going to give us all the features, and specs of the road map, and all the priorities. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey, thanks guys. >> John: He's like, "I'm not." >> So thanks for comin' on, obviously a successful show for you guys, congratulations. >> Matt: Thank you Paul Cormier was on earlier talking about some of the bets you guys made and it's all open source, so those bets are all part of the community, with the community. But certainly there's a big shift happening, we're seeing it now with containers, and Kubernetes really showing the way, giving customers clear line of sight of where things are startin' to fall in the stack. Obviously you got infrastructure and application development all under a DevOps kind of concept, so congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you, it's been fun, it's been, I think Paul shared this a couple weeks, we started OpenShift in 2011, so it's pretty cool to be here now, 2018, and just see how far that's come in terms of how many customers using it, how successful they've been with it. So that's, it's been great. >> Yeah we always like to talk on theCube, we love talkin' to product people and engineers because we always say the cloud is like an operating system. It's just all over the place, decentralized network, distributing computing, these are concepts that have been around. A lot of the Red Hat DNA comes from systems, you have SELinux operating system, that you offer for free but also have services around it. It's a systems problem as we look at the cloud, cloud economics. So when you go look at some of the product and engineering priorities, how do you guys keep that goin'? What are some of the guiding principles that you guys have with your team? Obviously open-source, being in up-stream projects, but as you guys have to build this out in realtime, what are some of the principles that you guys have? >> That's a great, that's a great question. I'll try to cover it on two areas. I think the first for us is workload compatibility, where you get down into the, building that new apps is great, it's fun, a lot of people can do it, and that's an exciting area. The customers also, they have to deal with apps they built over 10 plus years, and so in everything we design, we try to make sure we can address both of those use cases. I think that's one of the reasons, yeah we talk about OpenShift and how coupled it is to RHEL and Linux. It's for that you can take anything that runs on RHEL, run it in a container on OpenShift, stateful, not stateful. That's one really key design principle. The other one, and this we've actually experienced ourselves, of the roles and responsibilities separation. We run an OpenShift host environment publicly, I joke, like anyone that gives me an email address, I'll run their code and my operations team doesn't have to know what's inside of the containers. They have a really clear boundary which is make the infrastructure infinitely available for them, and know that you can run anything on that environment. So that separation, you know when customers talk about DevOps, and getting to agile, I think that's almost as critical as the technology itself, is letting them be able to do that. >> Yeah, that's been a real theme here at the show, I've certainly noticed. Sure there were technology demos up on stage, but also a lot of talk about culture, about process or anti-planning maybe, or you know helping people. The role of Red Hat with OpenShift and the full stack all the way down is bigger now than it was, just when it was just Linux. So I mean, is it you and your team, I mean your in engineering as you work with the open source communities, surely it seems like you're having to deal with a much broader scope of responsibilities. >> Yeah, that's true. I started in Red Hat when it was just Linux and part of it is, you know Linux is big, and it's complex, and that in and of itself is a pretty broad community. But these days it is, we get to work with customers that are transforming their business and that touches everything from how they're organizationally structured, how we make teams work together, how I make the developers happy with their rate of innovation and the security team still comfortable with what they're changing. I love it, like it is, you know and we open source at our core, so I fell like, I'm an open source guy. I always have been. You're seeing open source drive a much wider scope of change then I ever have before. >> Let's talk about functionality product-wise, 'cause again we interviewed Jim Whitehurst yesterday and we had Denise Dumas on as well, on the RHEL side, and we talked about security. These things going on, and with OpenShift, and with Kubernetes, and containers, it makes your job harder. You got to do more right? So talk about what does that mean for you guys and how does that translate to the customer impact because it's more complicated. There's abstraction layers that are abstracting away the complexity. The complexity is not going away, it's just being abstracted away. This is harder on engineering. How are you handling that and what's your approach? >> So I've looked at it as a great opportunity for us. I've been working with Linux for a long time and I was a big fan when we introduced SELinux, and for a long time moving from traditional Linux hosting to operations teams wanting to turn on SELinux, it's been a really tough climb. It's, it'll break things, and they're not comfortable with it. They know they need that layer of security, but turning it on has been a challenge. Then go to cgroups, or different namespaces, and they're not going to get there. With OpenShift, the vast majority of OpenShift deployments, under the covers we run with SELinux on by default, customize policies, everything's in control groups, containers uses Linux namespaces. So you get a level of workload isolation that it was unimaginable you know five, 10 years ago, and I love that aspect, 'cause you start with one aspect of security, you get much, much stronger. So it's our ability to, you know we know all the levers and knobs in Linux itself, and we get to turn 'em all and pull 'em all so, >> I want to put you on the spot, I want to, and it's not an insult to you guys at all. But we've heard some hallway conversations. You know just in a joking way 'cause everyone loves Linux, open source, we all love that. But they say, nothings perfect either. No software actually runs all the time great. So one customer said, I won't say the name, "When OpenShift fails, it fails big." Meaning there's, it's very reliable but it's taking on a lot of heaving lifting. There's a lot of things going on in there, 'cause that's, 'cause it's Linux, when it breaks, it breaks a lot, and I know you're tryin' to avoid that. But my point is, is that just as these are important components. How do you make that completely bullet proof? How do you guys stay on top of it so that thinks don't break? I'm not saying they do all the time. I'm just saying it's common. It was more an order of magnitude kind of thing. >> Yeah, yeah, no, well I think it's a coupla things. So we invested in OpenShift Online and OpenShift Dedicated and those were new for Red Hat, and for running hosting environments, so we could learn a lot of the nuances of how do you, OpenShift Online is roughly a single environment, how do we make that never break as a whole. A user might do something in their app and make their app break. How do we not make the whole break? The second challenge I think we've hit is just skills in the market of it's not necessarily an easy system there are lots of moving pieces there. The deal with Azure and the partnership there, having managed service offerings I think is really going to help users get into, I have a highly available environment, I don't have to worry about SED replication or those components but I can still get the benefits. And then I think over time as people learn the technology, they know how to utilize it well, we'll see, we'll see less and less of the it catastrophically failed because I didn't know that I could make it highly available. Those are always painful to me, where it's you know, >> John: That's education. >> Yeah >> So Matt, there's a clear conversation here. Very clarity of roles and responsibilities even in the stack. I think even as recently as a year or two ago, people were having conversations about the role of OpenStack, versus Kubernetes, and you were getting kind of weird, like what's on top of what? And even in terms of, you know other parts of the stack, I mean here it's clear, very clear, you know OpenStack is about infrastructure, OpenShift you know on top of it, and even in terms of virtualization, containers versus VMs. The conversation this year seems more clear. As an engineer, you know and an engineering leader, were the, did the engineering teams rolling their eyes going well we knew how this was going to work out all along, or did you all also kind of come along on that journey the last couple years? >> I think seeing the customer use cases refined a little bit while education builds those has been great. We always, like we're engineers, we like clear separation and what each products good at, so for us it's fantastic. You know OpenStack is great at managing metal. One of my favorite demonstrations was using OpenStack Director to on a, you know boot machines, put OSs on 'em, and leave OpenShift running, and be able to share network and storage clients with OpenStack. Those things are, you know they're great for me as an engineering lead because we're doing that once as well as we can, but it's nice in engineering if you get to optimize each side of the stack. So I think I have seen the customers understanding, as they've done more with OpenStack, and they've done more with OpenShift, they know which product they want to use, what for. That has helped us accelerate the engineering work towards it. >> You mention skills, skills gaps, and skills in general. How is the hiring going? Is there a new kind of DevOps rockstar out there? Is there a new kind of profile? Is there pieces of the stack that you want certain skills for? Is there generalism? Are the roles in engineering changing? If you could just add some color to that conversation around, you know cause we're talkin' about engineering now. It used to be called software engineering when I graduated, and then you became a developer. I don't know which ones better, but you know to me this is real engineering going on, which is using software development techniques. So what's the skills situation? >> For us I think, it is nice that you're seeing a lot of gravitation to Linux at the host level, and Kubernetes has helped, just at the distributed system level, so obviously skills there play pretty well in general. I would say what we have seen is there has been a stronger increase in having operational skills as well as development skills, and it's a spectrum. You're still going to have operational experts and algorithmic experts, but the blended role where you do know what it takes to run an application in production to some extent, or you do know something about infrastructure and development. I certainly look for that on our teams because that's, where customers I've seen struggle for years and years is in the handoff in the shift between, everyone can write functional apps, they usually struggle getting them into production. And it's really neither teams fault, it's in that translation and these platforms help bridge that. People that have some skills on either side have become incredibly valuable in that. >> John: So that's were the DevOps action is right, the overlay. >> It really is yeah. >> So thinking about network as the networking growth with DevOps. DevOps has always been infrastructure as code. And it all comes to, there's to many, many, I don't want to talk about it. It's always the network that gets beat on the most, I need better latency. And so networking software to find networking is not a new concept, self-defined data centers are out there. What's new in networking that you could point to that's part of this new wave? >> Two geeky things that might not have been noticed. One is the work we've done on Ansible networking has been stunningly popular to me, and that was just this simplicity of Ansible just needs us to sage in a minimal set of dependencies. Most switches out there can actually, they have SSH running, and having automation of switches in the actual gear itself was surprisingly not unified. And Ansible was able to fit that niche where you could remotely configure switches and that has grown and exploded. Because if you think of the, I'm going to do a DevOps workflow but now I need to actually change routing or bleed something, you're often talking to switches, and being able to couple that in has been, it has been fun to watch, so I've loved that aspect. The other portion when we combine OpenShift on OpenStack the courier work which we've talked about some, is, you know OpenShift often described as it consumes infrastructure that OpenStack provides, and the one exception was usually the networking tier. It was like we have to run an overlay network on it. When we run OpenShift on OpenStack it can actually utilize OpenStack's networking to be able to try that instead of doing it's own overlay. That is critical at the larger scale. >> John: So the policy comes in handy there is that, or configurations, where's the benefit? >> Both on network topology, which do you have two teams that are building different structures that may collide in the night. So it gets it from two teams down to one, and then the second is just the knock controls in isolation, it's done once. It's been nice for me on the engineering side where we'd put a ton of effort in the OpenStack community, we put a ton of effort in Kubernetes and the OpenShift communities, and we're able to pretty nicely combine those. We know 'em both really well. >> So take us through some inside baseball at Red Hat. What's going on internally within' your group. I want to probe on developer and software engineers productivity. If the quote DevOps works, the test is the freeing up their time from doing mundane tasks, and you got cool things like you said about the network things, pretty positive. This is going to free up some intellectual capital from engineering. So okay if that's true, I'm assuming it's true, if it's not then say it's not true, but it sounds like it's probably going to be true for you. What are your guys working on, what's next? So can you share some of what, 'cause you guys are doing your own thing, you're using your own software. Is that intellectual capital being freed up on the developers side? Are they doing some more programming? Are you seeing some more creativity? What are they doing with that free time, free time, extra intellectual cycles? >> All our excesses, I'll tell Paul that. He was up before me. Like, Ops team barely has to work anymore. >> There in there clipping coupons at the beach you know. It's all running, we're busy. >> So a good creative example, and this was I think the second demo we showed. Red Hat Insights has been in the market for a while and that was our, can we glean enough information from systems to get ahead of a support issue, and this year we showed the, it's not just known fixes, you know we match it to a knowledgebase article. But can we interpret fixes from peer analysis and you know machine learning type techniques? That's a classic example where we use the creativity and free time, and say you know what that stack internally runs on OpenShift, running on OpenStack, using Red Hat storage, and we're applying some of, you know TensorFlow and other capabilities to do that. That was probably my favorite example at SUMMIT where if we weren't getting more efficient at what we worked on, we wouldn't of been able to stand up that stack ourselves, much less execute to it, and show it live in SUMMIT, doing the analysis across a hybrid cloud. >> But this is the whole point of DevOps. This the whole purpose, being highly productive, to use those intellectual cycle times to build stuff, solve problems. >> Yeah absolutely. >> Not provision servers or networks. Awesome, well thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it. >> Matt: Thank you guys. >> What's the priorities for you guys this year? What's the focus? Share your plans for the year. >> You know I think it's similar to the last thing we showed today. We really want to make customers feel like they can deploy hybrid cloud. Whether it's compute, applications, they have the services they need, down to storage, it works. They're on premise. They know we're going to have the best combination we can. This year is a stay ahead of people on that path, make sure their successful with it. >> We'll see you guys at OpenStack SUMMIT, Vancouver. Thanks for comin' on, Matt Hicks, Senior Vice-President of Engineering at Red Hat. I'm John Furrier, John Troyer, Stay with us, we're day three of three days of live coverage here in San Francisco, Red Hat SUMMIT 2018. Stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break. (digital music)

>> (dramatic orchestral music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco. It's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello welcome back everyone. Day three of wall-to-wall coverage here at Red Hat Summit 2018 live in San Francisco, California, here at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, your co-host of The Cube with John Troyer, analyst, co-host this week. He's the co-founder of TechReckoning, and advisory and community development firm. Our next guest is our (mumble) of the senior Vice President General Manager of Hewlett Packard Enterprises Pointnext HPE. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well. Thank you. >> So there's not secret HPE been partnering with companies for many generations. And Red Hat is one of the big strategic partners. Lot of services opportunity, a lot of transformation happening, and the biggest thing is that true Private Cloud and Hybrid Cloud, and Public Clouds all happening an IOT Edge is kind of seeing pretty clearly what's happening. On-Premise isn't going away. >> No! >> It'll look like Cloud is going to run like a Cloud. >> Yeah. >> Has to work with the Cloud or Clouds plural, and then you got the IOT Edge out there-- >> That's right. >> All kind of coming together with software Kubernetes containers all kind of being glue layers in here. So, you know, must be good for you guys okay, customers can now see what you guys have been promoting. So what is HP doing with their ad? How's that tie into that-- >> Sure, sure >> You know, transformation with the cloud? >> You said it very well John. In fact when we talked to our customers weather they realized it or not, it's the Hybrid world, and the environments are hybrid, and like you said, probably private (mumble) are not going anywhere. In fact we did the CTPF acquisition, Red Pexia acquisition, and this is really all to help clients on the Cloud journey. Doesn't really matter to us whether the workload ends up in AWS, Google, Azure, on Prime or dedicated infrastructure. So, that's actually been a huge plus for us to really have a seat at the table, to have a discussion on the customers workload strategy. Now a partner like Red Hat, who have been together working together for probably 18 years now, and it's been a long steady partnership. Who they're number one OAM partner but also the point you made I think from a services standpoint that's just a huge opportunity you know, customers tell us anyone can do infrastructure service or they're looking for platforming service. So in jointly with our consumption capabilities, and Red Hat Open Shift. Now who giving them true Container Product Service. >> Containerization, how we were talking yesterday in our wrap-up. You can bring in the new without killing the old and but it's really fundamental because people want Cloud scale, they want the horizontal scalable application, devops and programing infrastructures code. But they can't just throw out their legacy stuff. Containers which allows them to nurture those applications and workload, and let it take it's natural course. This is actually good for services cause you can take-- there's a solution there. >> That's right! There's absolutely. In fact customers tell us when they looking for the platform, it's not just to help them on their new build. They're looking for help also to run the existing environment and most of the times it's not practical to re-factor, re-architect every single of the Legacy applications, and cause some of them applications, as you know, they were done to leverage the performance optimization on the underlying infrastructure piece of it, and so one of the things we're doing join to the Red Hat is leverage Containerization to provide the portability for the applications. To move between the different environments and whether it's Private Cloud, Public Cloud, but the key thing is portability, and mobility and that's sweet spot for containerization. >> Give some use cases of customers. Take us through a day-in-the-life of maybe a couple different examples where you guys are engaging with Red Hat where you coming in the customer is like, "Okay, here's my situation". What are some of the trends and patterns that you see with customers? What specifically are you, is it workload, moving it to the mobile clouds? Is it more re-platforming On-Premise. >> Yeah! >> What are some of the things that you guys are doing? >> I would say that the bulk of our engagement, and that's one thing that we feel really good about joining Red Hat. We have really shifted our engagement model to be much more outcome driven. So the discussions with the client is always start off with like a workshop, and within that workshop we're actually understanding where the customer is really trying to go, what business outcomes they're trying to achieve? Before we start we going to push a specific technology or stack with specific solution set, and by having that alignment, in in fact, we talk about that IT means to be embedded with the business. Not alignment, embedded with the business, and because the role of IT has changed. So when we talk about workload, right, it's about no longer, and I talked about this earlier today, you no longer running workload just within the Forward Data Center, and the traditional view of that IT owns and operates the Forward Data Center, that's just dead. So, it's really more about managing the supply chain. We talk about the overall workload strategy. Which workloads make the most sense to go on Public Cloud, Private Cloud, and then the discussion also centers around their application portfolio and really understanding which applications truly need to be Cloud Native. Which ones really need to be left in shift, and this whole portability concept comes into play and that's one thing joining with Red Hat because Red Hat is really good joining with us on driving this kind of innovation workshops. Then you heard this earlier today as well, and that's just the fun of if. When no longer you talking about PowerPoint presentation, this and that. It's getting in a room, getting on a White Board and talking about what kind of journey really make sense for that party-- >> That's been really notable here, this week at this conference, right. There a lot of tech, a lot of software talked about, but also on the keynote a lot of people talking about culture, transformation, getting beyond your process, and the places you get stuck as IT professionals. So that's a great way to approach it. Right, nobody starts with a list of skews-- >> No! And absolutely, the other point is that one of the things that always gets missed is the focus on the management of change, and that's one of the key pieces we emphasize that not just the business process, but the culture, the people. How you going to bring them along the change journey. So, we actually put lot of emphasis on the whole area around management of change. We actually have a practice that this is one of the keys areas they focus on. So, you're absolutely right. Key focus area. >> I did want to flip to the products for a second. There was an announcement here now and talk a little bit about HP Synergy, Composable Infrastructure, with Open Shift. Maybe if you have a headline on exactly how you guys describe Synergy and then maybe how we working with Open Shift. >> So the HP Synergy the best way I can describe it is it is truly industry first composable infrastructure, and it gives you the ability to pull fluid resources and with software intelligence built in, and Unified API. It really gives you the ability to pull the resource that you need for specific applications. In fact, I use the analogy, it's kind of like building Legos and you can pull together based on what you going to do at a given moment, and then you decompose it and build something new. So it's all done via a software and truly gives you that flexibility that customers have been seeking. So it's just to me its got a great market traction across the globe and we'll just see continued momentum when joining with the Red Hat. What we've done is now with the announcing new solutions like the one you referenced to, to support ansible automation of the Red Hat Open Shift on the Synergy platform from the three part and the Nimble product lines and it just helps scale the Open Shift and while making container operation simple, scalable and more importantly repeatable. >> I want to make sure that I get this out there, because you guys were early with composable. Dave Valata and I had a debate on this at one of your HP Discovers where, I was really lov'n the composable message. Although it was kind of for a different massage but at that time Devos was really picking up steam. But, it's actually happening now three years later the level of granularity to services level as microservices as it comes the architecture of the future. The services model is literally, "What do you want?" it's not, "Here's the solution", it's like< "What do you need?" so, you're buying off the menu, if you will, so that changes the game. So congratulations on having that composable method first. I got to ask you, the impact to the engagements. So you now have menu of services. Does that change how you guys go to market? You mention that you do kick of meeting, you do the needs assessment, so I get that. Check! good approach. But the customers now, they just want to make sure that it's custom for them. How does that change your engagement? >> At the CXO level, the discussion, no mater which way you start the discussion it tends to kind of follow into a few buckets. Rather it's about generating additional revenue, going to market quicker, or it's about safe to invest, reducing their operating expenses, or it's about securing their information network. One of the thing we find is especially if you take a look at even the containers, applications deploying it. It's one thing to deploy in the corporate environment but if you're trying to scale that with an enterprise. If the enterprises look for added features for their security, whether it's persistent storage and again the focus always turns into what can you do to help drive the total cost of ownership down. I think with Red Hat this is one thing that works great with Open standards. The focus is really much more around not just the simplicity, reducing costs, it's also about improving performance. Rather it's the physical virtual environment. So, you're right, the menu of services. Whether it's you talking about IOT Use Scape and I think you going to see more and more of that with the user experience, the focus that we talked about. Context of our apps. I use the example of going to the airport, getting into whatever transportation you using these days, but the point from point A to point B, you're no longer fumbling through cash or credit cards. It's a very easy experience, much more personalized much more usable and a lot of what some of the hospitality franchises are doing, whether you look at Starwood Properties, Marriott. Now you use a mobile device to access your room, and as soon as you get into some of the hotel property, as soon as you access their Wifi coverage all of a sudden you can actually, the hotel property picks you up. They can provide you with the navigation, how to get to your room and depending on your profile, and whether you opted in or opted out, they will push and their partners will push some specific services to you. So, how you are able to create that kind of experience and drive additional revenue and all that is possible to the point he just make, it's truly a flourishing eco-system of micro services and apps driven by the-- >> I think that business now seeing that which is great about that having a clear line of site that these new apps and new experiences is going to drive top line revenue for your customers. I got to ask you about the services now. With more services comes more delivery, right? So, options, ecosystems, you guys have a pretty big ecosystem right as a lot of other providers. You guys always worked will with multiple companies. How are you guys engaging with Pointnext with now new sets of service providers and your network. You got Cloud Service and you have someone actually maybe could be an intergrater, could be a software developer. How do you deal with this new stake holder in your equation? >> After all the spin mergers have been completed now and I think after DXC1 it really open up the door to get a lot of the system (mumble) back on the table because they don't really view us as competitor anymore. Because we no longer have a large the EDS acquisition that we had now the DXE. So whether you look at Accenture or whether you look at Deloitte and the other (mumble) we're actually partnering with them very well both in joint submission creation but also when we talk about true additions transformation for our client a lot of expertise they bring to us is very complimentary to what we have. So one of the thing we do very well is really around the technology advisor services. (mumble) bring more of the business advisory services as well as the specific vertical depth around the specific vertical whether it's emphasized retail. So when somebody talking about retail of the future or something like that. You marry the two together and you have a strong value proposition. I think the area that we have to put a lot more emphasis upon is more around program management, and because now you actually are trying to show that one outcome for the client, so it's very important whether you working with the ISB or whet ever you working with DSI or whether you working with the other intergraters, and your own resources how you going to bring that pool together around specific tracks and deliver a one common objective for the clients? The Program Manager plays a huge role in this process. >> For the folks watching. What should they know about HP Pointnext that they many or may not know about or should know about that that highlights what you guys are doing. Can you simplify, what is the value proposition that Pointnext is bring to customers? >> As the brand itself states, the Pointnext, it's really about working with the clients finding what's next in their journey. One of the thing I would say and a lot of people get surprised by this, even with after all the spin merge. We are twenty-five thousand people plus strong and we have a lot of great and deep appreciation when it comes to some of these solution and one thing we do very well is partner. Whether it's Red Hat and other SI and bring some unique innovative solution to the market and one of the thing Jim talked about here is all about accelerating user driven innovation, and when you take a look at some of the use cases we're rolling out and I talked about the analytics and the one AI project and how we're helping manufacturing clients or other use cases to truly analyze patterns and predict failures and increase productivity. These discussions customers truly trust us. With the (mumble) and CTP acquisitions we no longer just having On-Premise discussions. We have a strong public hard knowledge. It doesn't matter whether you cloud journey involves AWS, Google, Azure and what not. We are able to actually provide a very objective road map for the workload strategy and the transmission journey. >> The users in the communities as Jim pointed out in the meeting yesterday. The communities in Open Source are now also your customers. >> Right. >> So your customers are also participating in these projects upstream. Are you guys doing an Open Source work? What Pointnext doing? Are you guys relying on that community? Is there a crossover between your customers and those users in the Open Source community? >> Yeah, we always had a very strong (mumble) with the Open Source community. We contributed a lot to the Open Source communities and if you take a look at now as we working with the number of this next generation of partners, whether it's darker, scale it and Red Hat and others it's truly opened up the boundaries as to what can we push to drive new kind of solution there. I love what some of the speakers said yesterday. You remember the example from the Boston Children's Hospital where they talked about they didn't want to deal with the complexity, they'd rather focus on what they do best and so one of the thing we're focused on in the Open Source Continuity is the driving more standardization and automation. So you can run applications as scale. You can run analytics as scale. I think those are somethings we can bring to the table. >> Great! You know the thing about what's going on now with these abstraction layers is an opportunity to create new services and accelerate the services, and congratulations. Great to have you on the program. Thanks for sharing the update. >> Absolutely! >> Congratulation on your deep partnership with Red Hat. Go to see HP Pointnext doing well. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much. >> Live coverage here in San Francisco California. Red Hat Summit 2018 will continue. I'm John Furrier John Troyer. Stay with us more coverage after this short break. >> (electronic music) >> Often times a communities all ready know about facilities that are problematic, because they smell it, they see it but

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is day three of theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018, live in San Francisco, California, at Moscone West. We're out in the open, in the middle of the floor here, I'm John Furrier, your co-host, with my co-host to speak, John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning, advisory and community development firm, our next guest is CUBE alumni Kim Stevenson, Senior Vice President, General Manager of the Data Center Group Solution segment at Lenovo, great to see you. >> Hey, how are you? >> Thanks for coming on, so Red Hat Summit, Lenovo, okay, how does that fit together for you guys, Data Center obviously is cloud now, and you got on-premise-- >> We're both in Raleigh (Kim laughs) >> You moved to Raleigh, news, what's the update? Where's that connection with an hybrid cloud is taking this world by storm? >> Yeah, so, we're a great partner with Red Hat, and we're very focused on enabling that hybrid enterprise through hybrid cloud. So one of the things that we've done, we do a lot of co-development, but one of the things is we've taken our systems management software, which is Xclarity, and we're the first to embed that into cloud forms, so that we can move assets, public assets to private assets, and vice versa, and that wouldn't be possible without working really closely with Red Hat, so-- >> Well Red Hat's been very strong at support, and you go to the RHL side, on the operating system side, very reliable, it's got years and years of experience, but it's always been kind of let's certify the hardware, and now that you have a hardware at the baseline moving up the stack, you have OpenShift, getting huge success, Kubernetes, now you've got multiple clouds, which has other hardware, security becomes a concern, we hear that, okay, security being on top of that's a really big deal. How does that change the game for you guys, how are you guys adjusting to that, because it requires everyone to do more work, but now you got automation playing a role, take us through that relationship between from the hardware all the way up to the stack. >> Yeah, and it is the weakest link issue, right, that every piece of the solution has to be secure in and its own right, and the solution has to be secure, right? So, we do a lot in the hardware environment through our supply chain, we have efficacy of every part and component that goes in, every piece of software loaded through manufacturing, one of the benefits of having your own manufacturing organization, so we know what give is a secure platform when there is ready to go. But then as you start to add the software, this is where things like containers become really important, and the ability to do monitoring of the environment, without having to stop the environment. And, so, we have a lot of investment going in OpenShift, and we've launched recently a DevOps practice, based on OpenShift, to actually accelerate the deployment of more and more containers, to again, figure out the security by design versus security after the fact. The problem with monitoring is it's after the fact. You want to design in, and you need to rethink the application structure in order to be able to do that. >> Talk about Lenovo's strategy and innovation around enterprise and emerging tech, because, consumerization of IT has been topic, we talk about going way back, many, many years, but actually, the role of consumer hardware products is becoming more and more enterprise, as IoT for instance, becomes a critical piece of the network, whether it's new wearables for humans, or a security camera on a network, the edge of the network is now the IoT device, but also the data center can be considered an edge, a big edge, right? So, you have now devices everywhere, that's not so much consumer-ish, it really has to be enterprise, and cloud enabled. What are you guys doing in the innovation area there? What are some of the things that Lenovo's doing to move the needle on really making a seamless IoT edge, secure, and functional? >> Yeah, so, one of the things, if you look back at the last ten years of IT, right, we've spent a lot of time as IT organizations consolidating data centers, and then, basically, getting rid of people in IT, right? The simplicity of an AWS, and Azure Stack, has actually driven down the number of operational people in IT. And now you're hitting this wave where, on-prem private clouds, are becoming more and more important. It could be the analytic workloads, it could be your blockchain workloads, but the workloads that you want to keep on-prem, and you're going, "Holy crap, I need a robust "operational organization to actually "make this come to life." So that was one of my predictions for this year, was operational simplicity rises in importance, and our response to that from a Lenovo solution is to build fully-integrated appliances. So we have fully-integrated private cloud appliances based on Azure Stack, based on Nutanix, based on VMware's vSAN, ready nodes, so that you pick either at the software layer only, or you can pick a fully-integrated appliance where it's integrated in the factory, that's what I call rack-and-roll, comes with white glove support, and you need far less operational people. And if you want to know, I mean, it's mimicking that simplicity that AWS offers, right? So it's really an application team that now can manage this entire operational environment. >> So is that targeted towards folks who are transitioning to cloud operations? One of the things about true private cloud is, they're essentially rebooting their organizations to be cloud operations, essentially. >> That's right, yeah. >> And so they want that plug-and-play, if you will, I use that old term, but, just out of the box, and then it becomes a resource on the network, is that what you-- >> Yeah, well everybody says, they say the hardware doesn't matter, well it matters (laughs), you know, because it what makes everything run. But what they mean by that is they don't want to mess with it, it needs to be a no-fuss, no-muss, it needs to be there like a utility, but not have to have the resource dedication that used to exist, where I needed storage admins, and database admins, and server admins. That level of monitoring and management has to be abstracted to the software layer, and you have to then be able to integrate your resource components to be able to do that, and look at it as a system, not as a component. And that's where we're headed with our strategy. >> Yeah, Kim, that's a great consumption model, right? An increasing part of the market, converged infrastructure, hybrid conversion infrastructure, like you say rack and, what'd you use? >> Rack-and-roll. >> Rack-and-roll, I like that. But the hardware does matter, right? A few years ago, if you'd listen to some people, we were going to be inside public clouds with some sort of undifferentiated pools of x86 servers out there, but it turns out the actual hardware, and the integration pieces, do matter. John mentioned IoT, AI, we've seen some examples of it here at the show, real world examples, and then for that, hardware really starts to matter. Can you talk a little bit about how Lenovo's looking to some of these emerging tech? >> At the beginning of the year, we formed an IoT division specifically to focus on IoT, and it really is bringing the edge to life, that's the mission of that particular organization. And so, we see sort of the remote office, branch office concept that has long since, I mean, it goes back to AS/400 days, right? You had branch office computing. But, reinventing itself in a modern way into these edge servers that can be rugged-ized, for, you know, we have edge servers in windmills, as an example, to manage and monitor a windmill farm, right? To optimize generation with wind shifts, those kinds of things, but it could be a closet, right, and it could-- >> It's not a data center. >> It's not a data center, is in a physical construct of a data center, is in the functionality provided, it is a data center, and so, we have from our PC group one of the things I'm pretty interested about is we have these things called stackables, so they're about five by eight inches of a PC, and then you can magnetically connect a battery to a magnetically projector to it through magnets, and you can get basically a stack of computing power. So, we've looked at that from our PC colleagues, and said, "Huh, that's the future of the edge, "but it needs to be ZEON class, "it needs to be enterprised as manageability,", and so it won't be five inches by eight inches when we're done, but, it will use some of that IP in the stackable nature, that will allow you, then I can put that stackable unit on the back of a television monitor for a smart display, I could put it back on a kiosk, or a vending machine, or, and all of the sudden, now I can get really different customer experience at the edge, and then I can parse data, maybe I don't need that data, to go back to the cloud, maybe I do need some of that, for, you know, machine-learning capabilities, I want to create big data sets back in the cloud, you can create that level of intelligence at the edge, and parse the data, to where you think the appropriate destination for that data is. >> How important is the IoT edge for you guys, and what should customers who are trying to merge cultures of OT, Operational Technology, with IT? 'Cause now you have IP devices. Which, it creates a security potential, but, there's now policy involved, you got to write software apps for it, you got unique use cases, talk about the importance of the IoT edge, for Lenovo, and what customers should be thinking about when they architect. >> So, my starting point is every piece of equipment becomes an IP-enabled device that will generate and collect data, you're going to have to figure out how to use that data, right? I said to our facilities leader, not too long ago, I said, I pointed at the table, at the conference table we were at, "What do you think this is?" And he's like, "Uh, it's table," and I'm like, "Hmm, no, to me, this is a smart table. "It could be IP-connected, and we could figure out, "is it the right value for this particular room," and you could just get into these crazy things, some will make sense, some won't make sense, but basically, I think every company is looking at how do they make their products and services smart by wrapping them with IT-enabled services. So that creates a new edge. We used to think of endpoints as PCs and phones, now there are cars, and you know, any form of transportation vehicle, they're windmills, they're semi-conductor equipment, you name it. And, that is sort of the new, that's where we are trying to attack, from the IoT perspective, what we're trying to help customers understand is, it's that data collection use case analysis that will enable them. One of my favorite examples is Ford has a prototype product, it's not a car, it's a baby crib. Now, why, right? So, through autonomous driving, they collect a bunch of data, everybody knows that when new parents have a cranky baby in the middle of the night, what do you do, you put 'em in the car, you take 'em for a ride, right? So this baby crib mimics the motion of a car, mimics the sound of an engine, and mimics the streetlights. There's no more taking your baby for a ride in the middle of the night, you put 'em in the bed, yeah, we've all done it! And this is why these endpoint devices collecting data to figure out these new products and services, and I just think, whether they ever bring that to market or not is not the point-- >> It's new experiences. >> It's a brilliant idea, and gives you a really good illustration of how creating these smart-enabled endpoints will allow you to generate new business opportunities. >> That's been a real theme here at the show, getting beyond the technology, right? Transformation is kind of a buzz word, but, I loved that they didn't put a huge amount of tech on stage, they really did talk to the people here, attendees, about, "Look, you've got to step up, "you've got to have new ideas, "you've got to affect the business." How are you, as you talk with both of your customers and inside Lenovo, addressing those kind of transformation and business ad sorts of deals? >> Yeah, look, I said today, and I really believe this, there's a new mandate for IT. The table stakes of keeping the business running, of course we have to keep the business running and running well, right? But really, every IT leader should be thinking about how do they redefine the customer experience for their organization, how they drive extreme productivity, through AI and blockchain and stuff, companies today are extraordinarily inefficient. We all live in a company, and we can tell you it's inefficient, right? But, you now have the ability to affordably drive out that inefficiency through this level of extreme productivity, and then everybody needs to be thinking about the future of the company, what are you in the business of, and how do you wrap those with new products and services, whether it's adjacent markets that you're going to create, or it's enhancements of your existing product, so you can reach new customers, new markets, and that's a far more interesting role for IT, but you can't give up the ship either, right? You cannot let operational performance decline while you're operating on the new mandate, which is why new operating models for IT, and the hyper-converged infrastructures, and in-- >> Containers have been a great help there too-- >> Containers, right, we just have to fundamentally re-architect, so that it's easy to actually drive change, flawless change, into the enterprise, and, the volume of change for our future is twice as great as what we've experienced in the past, and if you accept that as a premise, you'll rethink how you've done your architecture, and how you promote code into production, and how you manage that code going forward. >> We always love having you on theCUBE, 'cause you always do predictions, so I want to go back and get some predictions from you. What's your predictions next year, what do you see happening, you know, by the way, you have been right in a lot of your predictions, so, we have the tapes, we can go back and look at the videos. (laughs) Ah, I guess you were right on that one! What's your predictions this year, I mean obviously you've seen a lot going on, we are talking about, here on theCUBE, seeing what's going on with Kubernetes, change to OpenShift, that a new internet infrastructure's being recast, with compatibility modes, with containers, and Kubernetes for orchestration, cloud scale, you can come up with IoTs, a new infrastructure, and upgrade, is coming. So there's a lot of things happening. So what's your prediction, what's going to happen over the next year? >> Yeah, so I actually believe this is the first year that we have human capacity in IT organizations to reinvent the enterprise structure, which comes led with an enterprise architecture discussion. We've been moving more cloud to the cloud SaaS applications, you know, infrastructure as a service, and that is now absorbed enough into that you can stand back and look at it, so I do believe that, I call it data centers go micro, that the era of data center consolidation is over, that we will be more data centers, they just will be micro-data centers, because they will reflect the edge of every company, and those endpoint aggregation that you need to do to figure out what your data analysis is going to be. I also think that the operational simplicity that operating models are going to be redefined, as more and more private clouds get deployed, the structure of an IT organization has typically looked like this, you have four basic functions, you have IT engineering, IT operations, application development, and applications maintenance. That's typically the structure. I think you're going to see a collapsing of that. There actually is no reason for four independent functions, you need to organize by line of business, and the business outcome you're trying to drive, and, workers are going to need to be more versatile, in terms of being able to span, you're going to abstract a lot from the infrastructure, right, so you need to be able to manage at a higher level, therefore you can't organize in that discreet manner, and I think you'll start to see that come life-- >> John: Like horizontally scalable people. >> Sounds like horizontally scalable people, yeah. >> You've been a CIO at Intel, you have a lot of varieties of roles sittin' on some boards, you're now in an executive role at Lenovo, you're managing products, your responsibilities are building, shipping and business performance as well. How has your role changed? You've been there for about what, a year and a 1/2 or so? >> Yep, just about a year. >> Just about a year, what's the energy like, what are you bringing to the teams, what's your vision, what's your to do list within Lenovo to take it to the next level? >> Yeah, so when I started with Lenovo because I considered Lenovo the underdog, in the data center industry, which was going through phenomenal change, right? And so, the underdog has the best opportunity to capture hearts and minds and share when the industry's going through change, and so that's what attracted me. And it's been true. We organized, about this time last year, by customer segment, to serve the unique needs of our customers in terms of hyper-scaling customers, high performance compute and enterprise, both at the software-defined and traditional layer. And, in that one year, we've won six out of the ten top hyper-scalers in the world, from zero to six in a year, we consider that to be great, and we learn so much from their, they're doing a lot of customization, and they're two, three, four years ahead of what the general enterprise will consume, and so we're able to take that then and pull it back into our private cloud deployment strategy, into our enterprise management, software management, and strategy, because we see what they're doing, and use that as a virtual cycle of life, and we've got a lot of momentum in that area. And our employees are just excited about how much progress we've made in a year. And I would say if you pulled ten of 'em, nine out of ten would've said they wouldn't have believed we could make so much progress in one year. And that's a good feeling to have. Now, there's more work to do (laughs). >> Yeah, you have product leadership, you've got some great products, it's now just focus and getting on the right wave, right? I mean, 'cause the industry is changing! >> Kim: The industry is changing-- >> So you can move the needle big time. >> Yeah, and we've chosen from a software perspective, we've chosen a deep partnership model, with Red Hat as one of the partners, and so, if I look forward, and I would say, "Look, "we're going to have to go deeper and partner more broadly "across the ISV sphere to continue to bring "these tightly integrated appliances "in simple cloud deployment models to the market," and that's what you'll see us do next. >> Well it's exciting for you, and congratulation on that, and they're lucky to have you, and we know from when you were at Intel, you've seen the playbook, you know? (laughs) A lot of change going on, so great to see you, congratulations, we sure did love covering Lenovo, a lot of great action, thanks for your support, and thanks for coming on, sharing your insights here on theCUBE again, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Kim Stevenson here outside theCUBE for Red Hat Summit 2018, live in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with John Troyer, we'll be back with more, after this short break. (bright electronic music) (soothing music) >> Oftentimes the communities already know about a facility that's a problematic because, they smell it, they see it, but, again, they don't have the evidence to basically prove that whatever's happening with their health is related to that facility. (bright music) If you have a low-cost instrument that's easy to use, then all of the sudden, science becomes something that everyday people can do. (bright music) (somber electronic music) >> Hi I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, and co-host of theCUBE. I've been in the tech business since I was 19, first programming on minicomputers in a large enterprise, and then worked at IBM and Hewlett Packard, a total of nine years in the enterprise, various jobs from programming, training, consulting, and ultimately, as an executive salesperson, and then started my first company in 1997. And moved to Silicon Valley in 1999, I've been here ever since. I've always loved technology, and I loved covering, you know, emerging technology. I was trained as a software developer, and loved business. And I loved the impact of software, and technology, to business. To me, creating technology that starts a company and creates value and jobs is probably one of the most rewarding things I've every been involved in. And, I bring that energy to theCUBE, because theCUBE is where all the ideas are, and where the experts are, where the people are, and I think what's most exciting about theCUBE is that we get to talk to people who are making things happen. Entrepreneurs, CEO of companies, venture capitalists, people who are really on a day-in and day-out basis, building great companies. And the technology business has just not a lot of real time, live TV coverage, and theCUBE is a nonlinear TV operation, we do everything that the TV guys on cable don't do. We do longer interviews, we ask tougher questions, we ask sometimes some light questions, we talk about the person, and what they feel about. It's not prompted, and scripted, it's a conversation, it's authentic. And for shows that have theCUBE coverage, it makes the show buzz, it creates excitement, and more importantly, it creates great content, and great digital assets, that can be shared instantaneously through the world. Over 31 million people have viewed theCUBE, and that is the result of great content, great conversations, and I'm so proud to be part of theCUBE, we're a great team. Hi, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching theCUBE. (soothing music) >> Man: One of the community's goals.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive of Red Hat Summit 2018, live in San Francisco at the Moscone West, I'm John Furrier the cohost of theCUBE. Here this week, as a cohost analyst John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning, an advisory and community development firm. Our next guest is Jim Whitehurst, the president and CEO of Red Hat, we have the man at the helm, the chief of Red Hat. Jim great to see you thanks for coming on and taking the time. >> Yes great to be here, thank you for hosting with us here. >> So you're fresh off the keynote, you've got a spring in your step, you're pumped up. Red Hat is really getting accolades across the board so congratulations on the big bets you've made. >> Jim: Thank you. >> You guys are looking like geniuses. We know you're super smart as a company so congratulations. >> Either that or lucky, but we'll take it either way. We are well positioned. >> Analysts love your opportunity, we're reading in the financial analysts out in the web it's saying, you know, the expanded market opportunity for Red Hat is looking really good. You've got infrastructure applications and management all kind of come in together. OpenShift is a center piece of all this and the cloud scale world is moving right to your doorstep. This is really the big tailwind for you guys. By design or like, how does that all coming together, is it the master plan? >> Well yeah I think it's two things, one is because we don't bet five years out on technology and write a technology stack to get there. That's not our model. Our model is to engage in communities, and when those communities get popular enough that we think that there's value in a supported version, then we offer the supported version. Now if you flip that around and think about what that means, it means we're never wrong with the technology bet, because we're not providing a product until it's something that's already highly successful. So we didn't offer OpenStack until it was successful. We weren't offering a Kubernetes offering until it was popular, and so I think that's one benefit. We truly work bottom up in communities. And then secondly I do think we've benefited from the fact that we've lived in the old traditional enterprise world for 20 years helping them migrate from Unix to Linux. So I think we understand the old world and the one kind of spin we put on the technologies is we have the sense of, okay for traditional enterprises, it's great there's all this cool stuff that Facebook and Twitter and others are doing, how does that apply to this set of problems? I think we uniquely have a foot in both worlds so we work and develop with the Googles, Facebooks, Twitters, but we really think hard about how those technologies apply to a traditional enterprise and the context and legacy migration and all the other issues that they face. >> You had years of experience dealing with the practical nature of getting support to customers. But you got to bring that new shiny new toy but make it right for the customers. >> Yeah exactly, and I think one of the reasons OpenShift, you mentioned that, it's our Kubernetes platform, is getting so much attention is we have instrumented and architected it to be able to run traditional stateful enterprise applications, and so you can do cloud native 12 factor, blah blah blah blah blah on it, but importantly you can run your traditional application suite on it, and so one of the reasons like you see so much momentum and so much interest in it is we're trying to span both worlds, and really thinking from an enterprise IT mindset in terms of their problems and saying how do you apply these technologies to make it work. So we're not sitting here saying you need to go do this, you need to adopt Google's practices. What we're saying is here's great technology we think you can leverage to kind of help you as you migrate to this new world. >> You guys got some clear visibility, and I think it's interesting in the container trend and Kubernetes, really good timing for Red Hat with this going on, and so two things we were commenting on our open today was we got to interoperability of multiple cloud options going on with Kubernetes and containers with respect to legacy applications, and then you got the cloud native scale for all the new stuff. So the old model in tech was kill the old to bring in the new, but now you have a new model where you can actually keep the old legacy, containerize it while building new functionality all within software that you guys are enabling, so this is kind of a breath of fresh air for a lot of people in the industry, on the enterprise side saying oh I can still use my stuff. But yet build new scale with cloud and on-prem and have a choice. >> Exactly. And it's not just use my old stuff. It is also leverage my existing people and their skills. Recognize the appdev world, most people aren't developing in a stateless cloud native way, and if you look at the traditional enterprise developer, they on average have four hours a month to do continuing education and new skill development. So, the idea that you're going to flick a switch and say all my new applications are going to be in this new model is crazy. Plus so much of the work you're doing is around your existing estate, really providing a platform that says you can develop new with the skills once you have those. You can take your existing people and take them on a journey versus like this big chasm that you have to get over as you think about both your applications and skill sets and build over time. I think that resonates really well with enterprises. >> Jim I really liked the keynote this morning. It was a very customer focused, not technology focused, and a lot of these keynotes lately have been fear based. You know, change or die, right? Your company's going to go out of business. You had a more positive vision, and the stories there were very good. A lot about time to market, time to value, some nice stories. I was joking, I think, you know, flying cars would be great, but I know I'm in the future if T-Mobile can help car makers update the apps in the car within a couple months using OpenShift, right? That's the future as far as I'm concerned. But you had this really nice framework of instead of preplanning everything as IT is want to do, you talked about configure, enable, engage. Can you talk a little bit about that framework and kind of your prescription for upleveling the organization and it's resiliency basically, as it hits the ground running. >> Yeah sure, and so I think you put a really good light on this idea of so many technology companies are out there kind of almost fear mongering around digital transformation, and what's happening is organizations around the world, fundamentally how they create value is changing. And it's all gotten listed under this moniker of digital transformation. But what it's basically saying is the future is very unknowable because the world is changing very, very fast, and it's ambiguous. You're likely to have the uberized, I mean that's a word now, orthogonal competitors coming in different ways. So your normal way of let me do a five year plan, let me prescribe a set of initiatives, organizations, and job descriptions to go attack that, and then execution becomes about compliance against that plan. That model no longer works when you don't know the future well enough to be able to do that. And so rather than just pick on that and say oh you should be scared, you should be scared, what we tried to do is say hey, Red Hat's lived in that world forever. Like, we had no idea that Kubernetes was going to be as successful as it is, and we don't necessarily know where it's going to be five years from now. But we know if we build the right context, it will develop the capabilities required for us to meet our customers' needs. And so applying that same model that we've seen in open source, and frankly we see in a lot of web 2.0 companies, we get asked over and over again, hey you provide me great technology, but help me contextualize this broader problem. Because the problem that everybody has is I need to be able to move more quickly, I need to be able to react to change more quickly, and I need to innovate more effectively. That is not a SKU. If that were a SKU we would be $100 billion company, right? That's not a product you can buy, it's a capability to build. And so the model we talked about was planning gets replaced by configuring, right? So, you don't know what the future's going to be but you know it's going to change, and so configure yourself for change. Prescription, or this idea you lay out all the steps that need to happen for people. In an unknowable world you can't do that and it gets replaced by enablement. So how do you enable people with the strategy, the context, but also the tools, decision support tools and information to make the right decision. And execution becomes less about compliance and more about engagement. So how do you engage your people in your organization to effectively react to change going forward? And so this model, and it's a very open sourceish type model of from plan, prescribe, execute, to configure, enable, engage, I think encapsulates a lot of what organizations will need to go do to be successful. >> I got to ask you a question on the community piece. I think that's where you guys have been successful with the community. It's a great way to be successful. You know, AB testing, you just look at what people want and you deliver on it. There's feedback from the community. So I got to ask you, modern open source, as we look forward on this next wave, what is, in your opinion, the key dynamic going on in open source? How is it changing for the better? What are you guys looking at? Because you're seeing a lot of younger people coming in. Open source is a tier one citizen in the world. Everyone knows that now. I mean and when you guys started it was, you know Red Hat and there's an alternative and now you guys have made that market. But now we're looking at another generation, microservices, cloud scale. Open source has become the model. You're seeing a lot more commercializations. Projects maintaining open, some productization going on at the same time. Is there some key changes that you see that people should be aware of or that you guys are watching in how open source has evolved? >> Yeah, so two changes. One kind of a broad role of open source, and then I'll come back then to how it's consumed. You're exactly right. Ten years ago and certainly 15 years ago, open source was about creating lower costs open alternatives to traditional software, right? And that's what we did. You know, Linux looks a lot like Unix, it's just lower cost and more flexible, etc., etc. Over time, though, as the big web 2.0 companies adopted open source as a model, you get this move so more innovation was coming from users than from vendors. So it's like big data, take that as an example. Big data exists not because of open source, it's because a ton of large IT leaders like Google and Facebook and Microsoft and Yahoo, etc., had these big data problems. And rather than going and finding vendors to solve them they solved them themselves. They did it in open source. And so you see this model move from vendor led to user led, and it's just like the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution, the winner's were at the machine tool manufacturers. These people use the machine tools. So I think we'll continue to see this happening where the majority of innovation is happening from users done in an open source way. Now the flip side then is, I think there was a sense 20 years ago and even 10 years ago among the zealots, that it's a big war between open source and proprietary. What we're seeing now, I think developing, you see this with a lot of the partnerships we announced, is open source will be embedded across virtually any technology platform, right? You can't use your phone, you can't get money out of a bank machine, you can't do a search, you can't do any of that stuff without using a lot of open source software. Doesn't mean the whole stack has to be open. Now we're all open and we're advocates for that, but you're seeing Microsoft embrace it, you're seeing IBM embrace, and so broadly I think you will see a larger and larger share of the technology stacks that people use today, be open source, and that'll continue. >> I mean I think the proprietary thing is pretty much a dead horse at this point. I mean, open has always won, open is winning, but also to your point about earlier making decisions in the community, there's a risk management benefit on this user led. You're taking away the risk. There's all kinds of risk management being done for you. There's no longer operational things that cost money, like managing releases. You can actually get great operational benefits as well as risk management for what to do. >> Well exactly, because these platforms, it's not let me look at three vendor solutions and say which one do I think looks the best. You actually can say what are people using at scale, what's worked well? And unless you are a bleeding edge adopter, you actually can get the observations of how people are using it and what's working and what's not. And I'll tell you from a vendor perspective it's great. When we release a product we never say, oh, does the market want this? We're not releasing the product until after the market's already adopted the technology in a community way in a pretty significant way. It's a great day, certainly game changing, I think it's going to be written up as kind of a new dynamic that's going to certainly be referenced in the history books. I want to get your perspective on the going forward basis. I know you guys are a public company so you can't really talk about the numbers, but in looking at some of the financial analysts reports recently on you guys, there's a quote I want to get your reaction to. This analyst said, "Software containers "look to be much larger opportunity than RHEL ever was, "and if Red Hat can become a leader here, "it will set the company up for many years to come. So there's obviously some people saying, obviously the container thing is pretty big. How are you guys talking to the marketplace, both the industry market, financial market, and customers around the containerization opportunity, how does Red Hat look at that? How is you as the CEO talk to that trend? 'Cause I know RHEL. RHEL's got a track record. But now you got containers. What's the order of magnitude? What's the mental model people should take to think about containers? >> So I can answer that in a couple of different ways. So let me start off with the size of the opportunity. So, as applications go from these monolithic services for applications to containerized microservices, that architecture is very, very different. And in the old world you'd have an operating system. And then you'd have a whole set of tool chains and management tools and all of these things to manage these applications, right? Well, in a containerized world you expect the platform to manage that for you, right? And so in the old world, which still exists in this growing force, but in the Linux world we provide the operating system on which the application ran, and then you got different management tools, application performance management, CMBD, all of this stuff that worked around that, right? You expect your platform to do that now, so if you think about the value we have in OpenShift, which is our platform, it's doing that telemetry, it's doing patching, it's doing a lot of the automation that was happening before. So there's a lot more value in the platform. And so like a two socket server running RHEL versus a two socket server running OpenShift, there's like an order magnitude price difference. And our customers aren't looking at it saying, oh my god that's expensive, they're actually looking at it like it's cheap versus the whole sets of tool change and management tools they were doing in the old world. So fundamentally the container platform has a dramatic amount of value. Now then from a Red Hat perspective, and I'll bring up another company, it's a little bit of a competitor, but VMWare did a great job of becoming the default management tool company around a virtualized infrastructure. Well why? Because in the shift from physical to virtual they were there first. And they kind of built a paradigm for managing that. Well in this world going to containers, containers are Linux containers, so we're there first. And so working to drive that paradigm, I think we can be a significant share player in these new container platforms, and honestly if you look out in the market, the clouds have their individual cloud offerings, which are fine. We actually can span all of that. So if you have any hybrid structure at all, we have by far the best solution to address that, and I think analysts are assuming we're going to be successful at a much higher value add and therefore more expensive product. If we get our RHEL share of that, you know it's an order of magnitude larger opportunity. >> And that's the cloud economics in play right there. 'Cause with that scale you're talking about okay, OpenShift's taking on a new role for the multi-cloud, for the large scale, you know horizontally scalable synchronous services that are coming online like microservices. >> Exactly, exactly. >> (sound distorts voice) cloud scale partnership and ecosystem strategy right? Your customers are deploying OpenShift on clouds like Amazon, Google, big partnership with Microsoft announced this week as well as a big IBM partnership. Can you talk a little bit about how Red Hat is approaching that cooperation and competition and what parts you'd like to keep on Red Hat versus where you're going to end up partnering. >> Yeah so, we, when you think about the fact that we sell free software, right? You got to think hard about the value proposition. And one of the value propositions we've always believed in is we create choice for our customers. So running Red Hat Enterprise Linux, we're geeks we can talk about all this value associated with it. For many purchasing departments the value was always, when it comes up for a hardware refresh, I'm not locked into one vendor now. I can bid that out because every vendor works on RHEL. So if my application runs on RHEL, I have unlocked choice at that layer. So that's built into our DNA. It's not just a value our software adds, it's the flexibility we're providing customers. So when we look at these new generation platforms, we really strongly believe we can add a lot of value by abstracting whether you want to run it on premise, on a server, on VMWare, on any of the public clouds. By abstracting those away we're giving our customers choice at the core platform layer. So part one is to make sure OpenShift is a first-class citizen and runs well everywhere. And so for our customers then, you know that your application will run anywhere. For our ISV partners to take IBM for instance, because IBM has announced all of their software running on OpenShift, that can now run wherever OpenShift runs, which is, by the way, everywhere, without IBM having to do a lot of work. So creating this abstraction layer huge benefits for someone like IBM. So you can now run mission critical IBM software anywhere you want to run it via OpenShift. So real value to a partner like that, obviously a value to us as it drives workloads. Now one of the other things that we've seen a lot is that people have gotten used to cloud, is they're really saying, hey I love OpenShift, this is great, but honestly you manage it for me. That's one of the things I like about cloud, so I love the idea of this abstraction layer, but I don't want to have to build my own management or my organization to be able to manage this at scale, so you be my service provider. And so we built that in a small way, so we have OpenShift Dedicated, which is an offering that Red Hat engineers run that runs on Amazon. But we want to make sure our customers had choice and also they could choose other vendors they want to work with and you know, Microsoft has a lot of heritage in enterprises, so this opportunity for enterprise is to be able to run OpenShift at scale on Microsoft, fully managed and supported jointly by Microsoft and Red Hat we think is a really phenomenal offering, 'cause we just don't have the scale to build out the capabilities to even meet the demand that's coming in right now for us to offer a managed service of OpenShift. >> And you guys are also doing some work, just to point out and I want to get your comment on, to help with the licensing issues. I know there's been some announcements where you guys are trying to get some more support for folks who are dealing with some of the licensing issues when expiring and so we had your associate general counsel on talking about some of the, version two, version three, grace periods. What does that mean for customers? What is the internal motivation behind that? Is it just making it easier? >> Well you know, this whole idea of licensing being an impediment to customer success, I just find horribly bothersome in the technology industry. And so we've always tried to strip that out for Red Hat, with our customers, and now trying to say well Red Hat's big enough it can have enough influence broadly. How do we try to be more influential in communities? So certainly nothing in the open source licensing arena, not just for us but for any vendor, gets in the way of customer success. And I think that's so important this idea of the artifact of protecting IP means you create lack of flexibility for your customers. I don't think anybody wanted that to happen, but it's happened. And so anything we can do to kind of tear that down we're working to do. >> Well congratulations on all your success, and I know that when I hear words like defacto standard it gets my attention. You see Kubernetes, role OpenShift's doing. We're envisioning a huge wealth creation of new value creation market coming online pretty quickly. You guys doing a great job. Congratulations on that. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Awesome work. Final question for you, I know you got to roll, but you guys are also growing, I noticed your teams are growing, how do you maintain the Red Hat culture? You get more people coming on working for the company, what's the strategy? Give them the Kool-Aid injection? Do you got to bring them in, assimilate into the open source ethos that you guys built and are expanding? What's the plan of getting all these new employees and new partners on board with the Red Hat way? You hand them the red pill and the blue pill and they better take the red pill. No in all seriousness, it's a high class problem but it's still a problem. You know, we do grow roughly 20% a year. Taking this account even modest attrition, roughly 25% of the people at the end of the year at Red Hat weren't here at the beginning of the year. And so when you think about a culture based company, and I spend a lot of time talking about our source of advantages and capability that's tied up in our culture, that's critical, so from how we think about recruiting over half our employees come from employee referrals, they say nobody knows a Red Hatter like a Red Hatter, to the way we do onboarding, which people laugh, you walk out of onboarding you still don't know how to get a computer, but you have been indoctrinated in the power of open source to the way we do checkups along the way, the way we use video and a whole bunch of things to do that. Because it is critical. It is who we are and what allows us to be successful. >> Do you get a lot of Red Hatters out there who left the company, started companies, they come back in the fold through acquisitions? So that's always a great, great sign and we love what you're doing. I'll say CUBE are open. We love open always is winning and it's the new standard. So congratulations. >> Well thank you for having me. It's great. And I really appreciate you being here, participating in the summit. >> All right, Jim Whitehurst, CEO of Red Hat. We're here in theCUBE, live coverage day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Check out all the coverage on thecube.net, siliconangle.com, and wikibon.com for all the action. I'm John Furrier, John Troyer, more live coverage after this short break. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

>> Let me check. (uptempo orchestral music) (uptempo techno music) >> Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here with theCUBE in San Francisco, Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with John Troyer co-host, analyst this week. the TechReckoning co-founder. Our next two guests are Ashesh Badani, vice president and general manager of OpenShift Platform and Alex Polvi, CEO of CoreOS, interview of the week because CoreOS now part of Red Hat. Congratulations, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> You're welcome. >> So obviously this is for us, we've been covering both of you guys pretty heavily and we've been commenting very positively around the acquisition of CoreOS. Two great companies that know open-source, pure open-source. You guys got the business model nailed down, these guys got great tech. You bring it together. So the first question is how's everyone doing? How's everyone feeling? And where's the overlap, if any and where's the fix? Explain the true fit of CoreOS. >> I'm going to start Alex, you want to jump in after. We're very excited right, so when we first had interactions with CoreOS, we knew this is going to be a great fit. The conversation we had earlier, both companies delivers in open-source, delivers in the mission center to take us forward regard to Kubernetes, as the container orchestration engine, and then being able to build out value for our customers around it. I think from our perspective, the work that both CoreOS did in advancing the community forward but also the work they've done around automation or their upgrades, management metering, charge back and so on. Being able to bring all those qualities into Red Hat is incredible. So I think the fits been good. It's been three months, I'll let Alex comment some more on that but we've been doing a lot of work from integration perspective around engineering, around product management. At Red Hat Summit this week, we reveal details around some of the converged road maps, which I can talk about some more as well. So we're feeling pretty good about it. >> Alex, your reaction. >> Yes, it's been three months. If you've studied CoreOS at all, you know everything that we do really centers around this concept of automated operations. And so by being part of Red Hat, we're starting to bring that to market in a much bigger and faster way of really accelerating it. The way the acquisition are really successful is either mutually beneficial to both companies and they accelerate the adoption of technology and that's definitely happening. We had the announcement yesterday with Red Hat CoreOS around the Linux distribution. Last week, we did the operator framework. It was very central to the work that we've been doing as part of CoreOS, and then as companies in a lot of ways is being part of Red Hat for three months now. This is what our company would have looked like if we ever just another 10 years along or whatever very similar, we're like a mini Red Hat, and now we're leaped ahead in a big way. >> And you guys done a good work. We've documented on theCUBE many times, and we were in Copenhagen last week. Now covering the operating framework but I want to get your reaction. You guys did a lot of great work on the tech side obviously, you can go into more detail but we've always been saying on theCUBE. If you try to force monetization in these emerging markets, you're optimizing behavior. And this was something that's gone on, we've seen containers. It's been well documented obviously what's happened. It's certainly a beautiful thing. Got Kubernetes now on top working together with that. If as an entrepreneur out there that are building companies. If you try to force the monetization too early, you really thinking differently. You guys stay true to it. Now we've got a good home with Red Hat. Talk about that dynamic because that was something that I know you guys faced at CoreOS and you've managed through it. Tempted probably many times to do something. Talk about the mission that you had, staying true to that and just that dynamic. It's challenging. >> Yeah, as we set out to build a company in general, there are really three operating principles. There is build a great technology to solve our mission which is to secure the internet through automated operations, build a great place to spend their days which is really about the people and the culture and so on. Why are we doing this, and the third was to make it sustainable and by that I mean to build their own money fountains, building out of the middle of our campus. And so by joining Red Hat it's we have a money fountain sitting there. (laughing) It's spewing off a ton of cash flow every single quarter that allows us to continue to do those first two things in perpetuity, and that third one is something every company needs in order to continue to execute towards the mission. And the thing that's so awesome about working with Red Hat is we're very much aligned and compatible. Red Hat's mission isn't exactly the same thing we are working but it's definitely compatible. It's like Apache and GPL are compatible. It's like that type of compatible. >> You both believe in open-source in a big way. Talk about the Red Hat perspectives. Now you got like a kid in a candy store. Openshift made a big bed with Kubernetes. You see now, you have the CoreOS, how has it changed in Red Hat internally? Things moving around actually accelerates the game a bit for you guys, and you're seeing new life being pumped into OpenStack. You're seeing clear line of sight with Kubernetes on the app side. We were just at KubeCon. A lot of people are pretty excited. There's clear lines of sight on what's defacto. What people are going to build around, and also differentiate. >> Right, so I'll start off by saying I really hope our CEO, Jim Whitehurst doesn't see this interview but if it goes off in terms of money factor. I'm currently make budget request. I think I know what's going on. >> Balance sheet, cashless now. It's in the public filings. If I see a fountain of money spewing off the thing, >> The ability to reinvest. >> This is a really good fit. (laughing) The way to say this, they have a great business model. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Some of us will make money, some of us will spend the money. Some of us will spend the money, it will work out well. (laughing) >> It's a great win. It's a great win. It obviously accelerates the plans. The commercialization is already there with Red Hat. This is just a good thing for everybody but the impact of you guys accelerating, just seeing OpenShift. You can boil it down to the impact of Red Hat. What is the impact? >> So in all seriousness, I think the focus for us really has been about there is so much complimentary work that's been going on with the CoreOS team that we're bringing into OpenShift, and to Red Hat in general that accelerates everything that you're seeing. You saw some amazing announcements happen this week with regard to our partnership with Microsoft and getting OpenShift out and Azure, and joint support offering. The work we're doing with IBM to get IBM middleware as well as IBM Cloud Private support integrated with OpenShift. The work that Alex referred to around automation, being able to bring that to our customers. We see all the excitement around that front as well so we want to take all Techtonic work that has been going on at CoreOS, then move that to OpenShift. Carry forward the community that CoreOS built around Container Linux, and actually inject a lot those ideas into that Linux, our flagship technology. Bring that passion and energy to bear as well, and then carry forward a lot of the other projects that they have. For example, the Quake Container Registry, that's extremely popular. Carry that forward, support our customers to use that both stand alone integrated with the OpenShift platform. Other projects like FCB that Alex has been talking about which is the underpinnings of Kubernetes plus running worldwide. So all of those things, we can bring forward, and then all the advancements that were made in place by CoreOS as they're working towards their money fountain, just plug that right into it. >> And just as a point of reference, Brendan Burns flew in yesterday. Microsoft Build is going up so he left their own conference to come down here. >> As did Scar Guthrie, right? >> That's a great testament. This is the testament. They're coming down, really laying down support. This is a real big deal. This is not a fake deal, it's real. >> And so I want to talk a little bit about specifics of the timeline, the road maps. Sometimes with these mergers or acquisitions, it's well the technology will be incorporated at some point, and then it goes away to die and you never see it again. And then the people all leave, and then you ask what was going on. But here, you actually have, I was great. You were talking to me. You have some specific timelines and we'll start to see some of the Techtonics Stack in OpenShift fairly soon. >> Yes, absolutely so the acquisition was announced three months ago and we said at that time that by Red Hat Summit, we'll lay out for you a road map and so we're now starting to do that. We put out release of some materials around some details with regard to how that's coming out. We have detailed sessions going on at Red Hat Summit around the integration plans between Red Hat, OpenShift and CoreOS with a few specific areas with regard to OpenShift. You'll start seeing the earliest versions if you will of the work that's being done. This summer, we'll deliver the full road map to you there by the end of this calendar year. With regard to, for example pieces like the Quake Container Registry that's being made available and being sold now as we speak. Customers can go get that, and we want to make sure no customer is left behind. Right, that's a principle we put out. And with regard to supporting any existing customers on Techtonic or the Container Linux space, we're doing that as we're working to integrate them into the Red Hat portfolio. Can you talk a little bit about the decision for Red Hat's atomic coast and Container Linux? Now re-named again, CoreOS. That was one of the seminal inventions that you all made as you started the company. I think it had some brilliant ideas again about security and the operational aspects but can you talk about some of those technologies and the decisions made there? >> Yeah, like I said, the acquisition of CoreOS Red Hat was about saying look what can we take that CoreOS has been doing to accelerate both work and community but also what could be doing to deliver this technology to customers. So the goal was we'll take all the atomic and the word that's been going on there have that be superseded by the work that's coming out of CoreOS Container Linux carry the community forward. Release a version of that called Red Hat CoreOS and in its initial form make that actually an underlying environment to run OpenShift in. Okay so for customers who want the automation that Alex talked about earlier. They made that available both at the underlying platform. Make it available in OpenShift platform itself via the work that's come from Techtonic, and then ultimately, Alex will talk about this some more through operators. So trusted operations from ISP or third party software that would run on the platform. All right so now if you will, we'll have full stack automation all the way through. OpenShift also support Red Hat Linux, a traditional environment for the thousands of customers that we have globally. Over a period of time, you should expect to see much of the work that's going on Red Hat CoreOS find its way into it as well. So I think this just benefits all around for us both in the near term as well as long. >> And Red Hat Container certification, where does that fit into all this? >> Yeah, a great question, so what we announced maybe was, actually was two years ago was a Container certification program. Last year, we spent some time talking about the health of those containers, and being able to provide that to customers. And this year, we're talking about trusted operations around those containers. That carries forward, we've got hundreds of ISPs that have built certified containers around it, and now with the operator framework, we've had, I think it's four ISPs demonstrating previews of their operators working with our platform as well as 60 more that are committed to building ISP operators that will be certified again. >> So people are certified in general, pretty much. I think we're very excited. The fact that we went to KubeCon last week, announced that the operating framework have been based on the ideas that the CoreOS team has been working on for at least two years. Making that available to the community and then saying for the ISPs that want a path to market. Going back to the money fountain again for the ISP that want to pass through market which is pretty much all of them. We also have the ability to do that so give them an opportunity to make sure that as wide as possible some adoption of the software at the same time help with commercialization. >> Can you guys share your definition of operator because I saw the announcement but we we're on a broader definition when we see the DevOps movement going the next level. It's all about automation and security, you mentioned that admin roles are being automated in a way to see more of an operator function within enterprise and emerging service providers. So the role operator now takes on two meanings. It's a software developer. It also is a network operator, it's also a service, so what is that, how do you guys view that role because if this continues, you're going to have automation. More administrator is going to be self healing, all this stuff is going to go on. Potentially operations is now the developers and IT all blurring together. How do you guys define the word operator in the future state? >> Well I know the scenario of great interest to you. >> So operator is the term for the piece of software that implements the automated operations. And so automated operations, what is that? Well that's what sets apart, the way I think about it is what sets apart a cloud provider verses a hosting provider. It's a set of software that really runs the thing for you and so if we're going to get into specific Kubernetes lingo, it would be an application specific controller. That's a piece of software that's implements the automated operations. And automated operation is a software that gives you that simplicity of cloud. It's at the core of a database as a service. It's both hosting but also automated operations. Those two things together make up a cloud service and that software piece is what we're decoupling from the hosting providers for the first time and allowing any open-source project or ISP brings the simplicity of cloud but in any environment. And that's what the operator is a piece of software that actually goes and implements that. >> So a microservices framework, this fits in pretty nicely. How do you see obviously? >> Microservices, there's all these terms. Microservice is more of an architecture than anything but it's saying look, there's these basic things that every operations team has to go and do. You have to go and install something, you have to upgrade it, you have to back it up, when it crashes in the middle of the night, get it going again. A lot of these things, the best practices for how you do them are all common. There's no ingenuity in it. And for those things, we can now because of Kubernetes write software that just automates it, and this was not possible five years ago. You couldn't write those software. There were things like configuration management systems and stuff like that that would allow companies to build their own custom versions of this. But to build a generic piece of software that knows how to run application like Prometheus or a database or so on. It wasn't possible to write that and that's what the first four or five years of CoreOS was is making it possible, that's why you saw all these mat and new open-source projects being built. But once it was possible it was like let's start leveraging that. You saw the first operator come out about a year ago, and I think it was our ATD operator was the first one, and we started talking about this as a concept. And now we're releasing operator framework which is from all the learnings of building the first couple. We now made a generic, so anybody can go and do it, and as part of Red Hat, we're now bringing it to the whole ISP ecosystem. So the whole plan to make automated operations ubiquitous is still well underway. >> I'd love to extend that conversation though to the operator, the person. >> Right. I think you and your team brought the perspective of the operational excellence right to the table. A lot of cloud has been driven by the role of developer and DevOps but I've always felt like well wait a minute operators the people who use to be known as IT insisted they had a lot to bring to the table too about security and about keeping things running, and about compliance and about all that good stuff. So can you talk a little bit as you see the community emerging, and as you see all these folks here. How do you talk to people who want to understand what their role is going to be with all this automation in keeping the clouds running? >> Computers use to be people too. (laughing) But we're not going to completely automate away everything because there's still parts of this wildly complex system that justifies whole conferences of thousands of people that require a whole lot of human ingenuity. What we're doing is saying let's not like do the part that is the fire drill in the middle of the might that keeps you from making forward progress. The typical role of an operations person today is just fighting fires of mundane things that don't actually add a lot of value to the business. In fact, this guy is difficult because you only get brought up when things are on fire. You never get an praise when things are going well. And so what we want to do is help the operations folks put out those fires like the security updates. Let's just roll those out automatically. The way you do those across all organizations does not need to be special and unique but they're really critical to do right. >> Well it's just automate that stuff away and let the operations team focus on moving the business forward. The parts that require the human spirit to actually go and do, and if we get to a point where a CEO of a company is like, wow, I can not come up with a new vision for this imitative 'cause my operations team are just so fast at influencing them. Then we have to start worrying about operations people's job but I don't see that happening for a very long time. >> And no one is going to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs either. >> Let me just extend that point a little bit. The whole point of operators is to encapsulate human knowledge that ISPs have and bring that in the platform and automate it. So the challenge that we've had is an operations person is required to know a lot about a lot. So the question then really is how can we at least take some of what's already known by people and be able to replicate that and that allows for every one to move forward. I think that's just forward-- >> Well, there's a bigger picture beyond that, so I agree but there is also scale. With cloud, you have scale issues. So with scale automation is a beautiful thing 'cause the fire has also grown exponentially too so you can't be operating like this. Scale matters, super. >> The reason that this stuff was invented at Google initially was not because of Google's high career per second. Is that they were, to build the application they're building required so many servers that you couldn't hire enough operations people without writing software to automate it. So they were forced to custom design the system because they had so many servers to run to build the software that they wanted to build. And other companies are just now getting to that point because every company is going through a digital transformation. They have to have thousands of servers just to run their applications. There's no way you're just going to hire the operations staff to go and do it all by hand. You have to write software to turn the operations people into mech warriors of running servers. You need to wrap them in automation in order to scale that. >> At KubeCon, she made a comment that all those operations folks at Google are software developers. >> Brand engineers. >> Brand engineering, so they're not Ops guys just pushing buttons and provisioning gear and what not. They're actually writing code. You bring up the Google piece, the other piece that we heard at KubeCon. We hear this consistently that this is now a new way to do software development. So when a former Googler went to work for another company, left Google. She went in and she said, "Oh my God, you guys don't do. "You don't use board?" To her, she's like how do you write software? So she was like young and went out in the real world and was like wait a minute, you don't do this? So this is a new model in software development at scale with these new capabilities. >> I think so and I think what's really important is the work we're doing with regards to an ecosystem perspective to help folks. So one of the top things I hear from customers all the time is this sounds fantastic. Everyone's talking about DevOps or microservices or wanting to run Kubernetes at scale. Do I have the skills? Can I keep up with the change that's in place and how do I continue going forward around that? So we announced at Red Hat Summit Managed offerings from let's say Atos and DXC where you've got goals to integrate us helping folks, or companies like Extension T systems. The CEO came and spoke today about the work we're doing with them to help connected cars, and those applications be rolled out quick and fast. I think it's going to take a village to get us to where we want to because the rate of change is so fast around all of these areas and it's not slowing down that we'll have to ensure there's more automation and then there's more enablement that's going on for our customers. >> So some clarity, can you guys comment on your reaction to obviously we've seen OpenStack has done over the years and now with well Containers, now Kubernetes. You seeing at least two ecosystems clearly identified. Application developers, cloud native and then I would call under the hood infrastructure, you got OpenStack. Almost it clarifies where people can actually focus on real problems that the Kubernetes needs. So how has the Container, maturation of Containers with Kubernetes clarified the role of the community? If this continues with automation, you can almost argue that the clarity happens everywhere. Can you comment on how you see that happening? Is it happening or is it just observation that's misguided? >> I think we're getting better with regard to fit for a purpose or fit for use case. All right, so if you start thinking about the earliest days of OpenStack. OpenStack is going to be AWS in a box, and then you realize well that's not a practical way of thinking about what a community can do a build at scale. And so when you start thinking about a Word appropriate use case for this. Now you start betting if you will, a set of scales, you set expectations around how to make that successful. I think we'll go through the same if we haven't already or even going through it with regard to Kubernetes. So not every company in the world can run Managed World call. DYI Kubernetes, don't many companies will start with that. And so the question is how do we get to the point where there's balance around it and then be able to take advantage of the work? For example, companies like Red Hat work for us was doing to help accelerate that path 'cause to the point Alex was trying to make is the value for them being able to keep up with the core release of Kubernetes? And every time a bug shows up to go off and be able to fix and patch it, and watch that or is the value building the next set of applications set on top of platforms. >> That's great, well congratulations guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate the insight. Congratulations on the three months into Red Hat. Good fit, and enjoy the rest of the show. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Live from Red Hat Summit, it's theCUBE's coverage here of Red Hat and all the innovation going on out in the open. We're here in the middle of, we open the floor with Moscone West with live coverage. Stay with us for more after this short break. (uptempo techno music)

>> [Announcer] 18, brought to you by Red Hat >> Well, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in San Francisco, California, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I am John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE with my analyst co-host this week, John Troyer, co-founder of the TechReckoning advisory services. And our next guest is Arvind Krishna, who is the Senior Vice President of Hybrid Cloud at IBM and Director of IBM Research. Welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks John and John great to meet you guys here. >> You can't get confused here you've got two John's here. Great to have you on because, you guys have been doing some deals with Red Hat, obviously the leader at open storage. You guys are one of them as well contributing to Linuxes well documented in the IBM history books on your role and relationship to Linux so check, check. But you guys are doing a lot of work with cloud, in a way that, frankly, is very specific to IBM but also has a large industry impact, not like the classic cloud. So I want to tie the knot here and put that together. So first I got to ask you, take a minute to talk about why you're here with Red Hat, what's the update with IBM with Red Hat? >> Great John, thanks for giving me the time. I'm going to talk about it in two steps: One, I'm going to talk about a few common tenets between IBM and Red Hat. Then I'll go from there to the specific news. So for the context, we both believe in Linux, I think that easy to state. We both believe in containers, I think that is the next thing to state. We'll come back talk about containers because this is a world, containers are linked to Linux containers are linked to these technologies called Kubernetes. Containers are linked to how you make workloads portable across many different environments, both private and public. Then I go on from there to say, that we both believe in hybrid. Hybrid meaning that people want the ability to run their workload, where ever they want. Be it on a private cloud, be it on a public cloud. And do it without having to rewrite everything as you go across. Okay, so let's establish, those are the market needs. So then you come back and say. And IBM has a great portfolio of Middleware, names like WebSphere and DB2 and I can go on and on. And Red Hat has a great footprint of Linux, in the Enterprise. So now you say, we've got the market need of hybrid. We've got these two thing, which between them are tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of end points. How do you make that need get fulfilled by this? And that's what we just announced here. So we announced that IBM Middleware will run containerized on Red Hat containers, on Red Hat Enterprise Linux. In addition, we said IBM Cloud Private, which is the ability to bring all of the IBM Middleware in a sort of a cloud-friendly form. Right you click and you install it, it keep it self up, it doesn't go down, it's elastic in a set of technologies we call IBM Cloud Private, running in turn on Red Hat OpenShift Container service on Red Hat Linux. So now for the first time, if you say I want private, I want public, I want to go here, I want to go there. You have a complete certified stack, that is complete. I think I can say, we're a unique in the industry, in giving you this. >> And this is where, kind of where, the fruit comes off the tree, for you guys. Because, we've been following you guys for years, and everyone's: Where's the cloud strategy? And first of all, it's not, you don't have a cloud strategy you have cloud products. Right, so you have delivered the goods. You got the, so just to replay. The market need we all know is the hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, choice et cetera, et cetera. >> You take Red Hat's footprint, your capabilities, your combined install base, is foundational. >> [Arvind] Right >> So, nothing needs to change. There's no lift and shift, there's no rip and replace, >> you can, it's out there it's foundational. Now on top of it, is where the action is. That where you're kind of getting at, right? >> That's correct, so we can go into somebody running, let's say, a massive online banking application or they're running a reservation system. It's using technologies from us, it's using Linux underneath and today it's all a bunch of piece pods, you have a huge complex stuff it's all hard-wired and rigidly nailed down to the floor in a few places and now you can say: Hey, I'll take the application. I don't have to rewrite the application. I can containerize it, I can put it here. And that same app now begins to work but in a way that's a lot more fluid and elastic. Or my other way: I want to do a bit more work. I want to expose a bit of it up as microservices. I want to insert some IA. You can go do that. You want to fully make it microservices enabled to be able to make it into little components >> and ultimately you can do that. >> So you can take it in sort of bite size chunks and go from one to other, at the pace that you want. >> [John F.] Now that's game changing. >> Yeah, that's what I really like about this announcement. It really brings best of breed together. You know, there is a lot of talk about containers. Legacy and we've been talking about what goes where? And do you have to break everything up? Like you were just saying. But the announcement today, WebSphere, the battle tested huge enterprise scale component, DB2, those things containerized and also in a frame work like with IBM, either with IBM microservices and application development things or others right, that's a huge endorsement for OpenShift as a platform. >> Absolutely, it is and look, we would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit. I mean we use the word containers and containerized a lot. Yes, you're right. Containers are a really, really important technology but what containers enable is much more than prior attempts such as VM's and all have done. Containers really allow you to say: Hey, I solved the security problem, I solved the patching problem, the restart problem, all those problems that lie around the operations of a typical enterprise, can get solved with containers. VM's solved a lot about isolating the infrastructure but it didn't solve, as John was saying, the top half of the stack. And that's I think the huge power here. >> Yeah, I want to just double click on that because I think the containers thing is instrumental. Because it, first of all, being in the media and loving what we do. We're kind of a new kind of media company but traditional media is been throwing IBM under the bus since saying: Wow old guard and all these things. Here's the thing, you don't have to change anything. You got containers you can essentially wrap it up and then bring a microservice architecture into it. So you can actually leverage at cloud scale. So what interests me is that you can move instantly, >> value proposition wise, pre-existing market, cloudify it, if you will, with operational capabilities. >> Right. >> This is where I like the Cloud Private. So I want to kind of go there for a second. If I have a need to take what I have at IBM, whether it is WebSphere. Now I got developers, I got installed base. I don't have to put a migration plan away. I containerize it. Thank you very much. I do some cloud native stuff but I want to make it private. My use case is very specific, maybe it's confidential, maybe it's like a government region, Whatever. I can create a cloud operations, is that right? I can cloudify it, and run it? >> Absolutely correct, so when you look at Cloud Private, to go down that path, we said Cloud Private allows you to run on your private infrastructure but I want all these abilities you just described John. I want to be able to do microservices. I want to be able to scale up and down. I want to be able to say operations happen automatically. But it gives you all that but in the private without it having to go all the way to the public. If you cared a lot about, your in a regulated industry, you went down government or confidential data. Or you say this data is so sensitive, I don't really, I am not going to take the risk of it being anywhere else. It absolutely gives you that ability to go do that and that is what brought Cloud Private to the market for and then you combine that with OpenShift and now you get the powers of both together. >> See you guys essentially have brought to the table the years of effort with Bluemix, all that good stuff going on, you can bring it in and actually run this in any industry vertical. Pretty much, right? >> Absolutely, so if you look at part what the past has been for the entire industry. It has been a lot about constructing a public cloud. Not just us, but us and our competition. And a public cloud has certain capabilities and it has certain elasticity, it has a global footprint. But it doesn't have a footprint that is in every zip code or in every town or in every city. That's not what happens to a public cloud. So we say. It's a hybrid world meaning that you're going to run some workloads on a public cloud, I'd like to run some workloads on a private and I'd like to have the ability that I don't have to pre decide which is where. And that is what the containers and microservices, the OpenShift that combination all give you to say you don't need to pre decide. You rewrite the workload onto this and then you can decide where it runs. >> Well I was having this conversation with some folks at a recent Amazon Web services conference. Well, if you go to cloud operations, then the on premise is essentially the edge. It's not necessarily. Then the definition of on premise, really doesn't even exist. >> So if you have cloud operations, in a way, what is the data center then? It's just a connected issue. >> That's right, it's the infrastructure which is set up and then, at that point, the Software Manger, at the data center, as opposed to anything else. And that's kind of been the goal that we're all been wanting. >> Sounds like this is visibly at IBM's essentially execution plan from day one. We've been seeing it and connecting the dots. Having the ability to take either pre-existing resources, foundational things like Red Hat or what not in the enterprise. Not throwing it away. Building on top of it and having a new operating model, with software, with elastic scale, horizontally scalable, Synchronous, all these good things. Enabling microservices, with Kubernetes and containers. Now for the first time, >> I can roll out new software development life cycles in a cloud native environment without forgoing legacy infrastructure and investment. >> Absolutely, and one more element. And if you want to insert some cloud service into the environment, be it in private or in public, you can go do that. For example, you want to insert a couple of AI services >> into the middle of your application you could go do that. So the environment allows you to, do what you described and these additionals. >> I want to talk about people for a second. The titles that we haven't mentioned CIO, Business Leader, Business Unit Leaders, how are they looking at >> digital transformation and business transformation in your client bases you go out and talk to them. >> Let's take a hypothetical bank. And every bank today is looking about simple questions. How do I improve my customer experience? And everybody want, when they say customer experience, really do mean digital customer experience to make it very tangible. And what they mean by that is how do I get my end customer engaged with me through an app. The app is probably in a device like this. Some smart phone, we won't say what it is, and so how do you do that? And so they say: Well, all obviously to check your balance. You obviously want to check your credit card. You want to do all those things. The same things we do today. So that application exists, there is not much point in rewriting it. You might do the UI up but it's an app that exists. Then you say but I also want to give you information that's useful to you in the context to what you're doing. I want say, you can get a 10 second loan, not a 30 day loan, but a 10 second loan. I want to make a offer to you in the middle of you browsing credit card. All those are new customergistics, where do you construct those apps? How do you mix and match it? How do you use all the capabilities along with the data you've got to go do that? And what we're trying to now say, here is a platform that you can go, do all that on. Right, that complete lifecycle you mentioned, the development lifecycle but I got to add to it >> the data lifecycle, as well as, here is the versioning, here are my AI models, all those things, built in, into one platform. >> And scales are huge, the new competitive advantage. You guys are enabling that. So I got to ask you a question on multi cloud. Obviously, as people start building out the cloud on PRIM and with Public Cloud and the things you're laying out. I can see that going on for a while, a lot of work being done there. We're seeing that Wikibon had a true Private Cloud report what I thought was truly telling. A lot of growth there, still not going away. Public Cloud's certainly grown in numbers are clear. However, the word multicloud's being kicked around I think it's more of a future stay obviously but people have multiple clouds Will have relationships with multiple clouds. No one's going to have one cloud. It's not a winner take all game. Winner take most but you know you're have multiple clouds. What does multi cloud mean to you guys in your architecture? Is that moving workloads in real time based upon spot pricing indexes or is that just co-locating on clouds and saying I got this app on this cloud, that app on that cloud, control plane it. These are architectural questions. What the hell is multicloud? >> So there's a today, then there is a tomorrow, then there is a long future state, right? So let's take today, let's take IBM. We're on Salesforce, we're on ServiceNow, we're on Workday, we're on SuccessFactors, well all of there are different clouds. We run our own public cloud, we run our own private cloud and we have Judicial Data Center. And we might have some of the other clouds also through apps that we barter we don't even know. Okay, so that's just us. I think everyone of our clients are like this. The multicloud is here today. I begin with that first, simple statement. And I need to connect the data and can connect when thing go where. The next step, I think people, nobody's going to have even one public cloud. Even amongst the big public clouds, most people are going to have two if not more That's today and tomorrow. >> Your channel partners have clouds, by the way, your Global SI's all have clouds, theCUBE is a cloud for crying out load. >> Right, so then you go into the aspirational state and that may be the one you said, where people just spot pricing. But even if I stay back from spot pricing and completely (mumbles) I make. And I'm worrying about network and I'm worrying about radio reach. If I just backup around to but I may decide I have this app, I run it on private, well, but I don't have all the infrastructures I want to burst it today and I, where do I burst it? I got to decide which public and how do I go there? >> And that's a problem of today and we're doing that and that is why I think multicloud is here now. >> Not some point in the future. >> The prime statement there is latency, managing, service level agreements between clouds and so on and so forth. >> Access control on governance, Where does my data go? Because there may be regulatory reasons to decide where the data can flow and all those things. >> Great point about the cloud. I never thought about it that way. It is a good illustration. I would also say that, I see the same arguments in the data base world. Not everyone has DB2, not everyone has Oracle, not everyone has, databases are everywhere, you have databases part of IoT devices now. So like no one makes a decision on the database. Similar with clouds, you see a similar dynamic. It's the glue layer that, interest me. As you, how do you bring them together? So holistically looking at the 20 miles stare in the future, what is the integration strategy long-term? If you look at distributed system or an operating system there has to be an architectural guiding principle for integration, your thoughts. >> This has been a world 30 years in the making. We can say networking, everyone had their own networking standard and the, let's say the '80s probably goes back to the '70s right? You had SNA, you had TCP/IP, you had NetBIO's-- >> DECnet. DECnet. You can on and on and in the end it's TCP/IP that won out as the glue. Others by the way, survived but in packets and then TCP/IP was the glue. Then you can fast forward 15 years beyond that and HTTP became the glue, we call that the internet. Then you can fast forward and you can say, now how do I make applications portable? And I will turn round and tell you that containers on Linux with Kubernetes as orchestration is that glue layer. Now in order to make it so, just like TCP/IP, it wasn't enough to say TCP/IP you needed routing tables, you needed DNS, you needed name repository, you needed all those things. Similarly, you need all those here are called the scatlog and automation, so that's the glue layer that makes all of this work >> This is important, I love this conversation because I have been ranting on theCUBE for years. You nailed it. A new stack is developing and DNS's are old and internet infrastructure, cloud infrastructure at the global scale is seeing things like network effect, okay we see blockchain in token economics, databases, multiple databases, on structure day >> a new plethora of new things are happening that are building on top of say HTTP >> [Arvind] Correct! >> And this is the new opportunity. >> This is the new platform which is emerging and it is going to enable business to operate, as you said, >> at scale, to be very digital, to be very nimble. Application life cycles aren't always going to be months, they're going to come down to days and this is what gets enabled >> So I what you to give your opinion, personal or IBM or whatever perspective because I think you nailed the glue layer on Kubernetes, Docker, this new glue layer that and you made references to, things like HTTP and TCP, which changed the industry landscape, wealth creation, new brands emerged, companies we never heard of emerged out of this and we're all using them today. We expect a new set of brands are going to emerge, new technologies are going to emerge. In your expert opinion, how gigantic is this swarm of new innovation going to be? Just, 'cause you've seen many ways before. In you view, your minds eye, what are you expecting? >> Share your insight into how big of a shift and wave is this going to be and add some color to that. >> I think that if I take a shorter and then a longer term view. in the short term, I think that we said, that this is in the order of $100 billion, that's not just our estimate, I think even Gartner has estimated about the same number. That will be the amount of opportunity for new technologies in what we've been describing. And that is I think short term. If I go longer term, I think as much as a half but at least a fourth of the complete IT market is going to shift round to these technologies. So then the winners of those that make the shift and then by conclusion, the losers are those who don't make the shift fast enough. If half the market moves, that's huge. >> It's interesting we used to look at certain segments going back years just company, oh this company's replatformizing, >> replatforming their op lift and shift and all this stuff. What you're talking about here is so game changing because the industry is replatforming >> That's correct. It's not a company. >>It's an industry! That's right. And I think the internet era of 1995, to put that point, is perhaps the easiest analogy to what is happening. >> Not the emergence of cloud, not the emergence of all that I think that was small steps. >> What we are talking about now is back to the 1995 statement >> [John] Every vertical is upgrading their stack across what from e-commerce to whatever. >> That's right. >> It's completely modernizing. >> Correct. Around cloud. >> What we call digital transformation in a sense, yes >> I'm not a big fan of the word but I understand what you mean. Great insight Arvind, thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing. We didn't even get to some of the other good stuff. But IBM and Red Hat doing some great stuff obviously foundational, I mean, Red Hat, Tier one, first class citizen in every single enterprise and software environment you know, now OpenSource runs the world. You guys are no stranger to Linux being the first billion dollar investment going back >> so you guys have a heritage there so congratulations on the relationship. >> I mean 18 years ago, if I remember 1999. >> I love the strategy, hybrid cloud here at IBM and Red Hat. This is theCUBE, bringing all the action here in San Francisco. I am John Furrier, John Troyer. More live coverage. Stay with us, here in theCUBE. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE! Covering RedHat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Alright welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat 2018. I'm John Furrier, the co host of theCUBE with John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning Advisory Firm. Next guest is Chris Wright, Vice President and CTO Chief of Technology of his Red Hat. Great to see you again, thanks for joining us today. >> Yeah, great to be here. >> Day one of three days of CUBE coverage, you got, yesterday had sessions over there in Moscone South, yet in classic Red Hat fashion, good vibes, things are rocking. Red Hat's got a spring to their step, making some good calls technically. >> Chris: That's right. >> Kubernetes' one notable, Core OS Acquisition, really interesting range, this gives, I mean I think people are now connecting the dots from the tech side, but also now on the business side, saying "Okay we can see now some, a wider market opportunity for Red Hat". Not just doing it's business with Linux, software, you're talking about a changing modern software architecture, for application developers. I mean, this is a beautiful thing, I mean. >> Chris: It's not just apps but it's the operator, you know, operation side as well, so we've been at it for a long time. We've been doing something that's really similar for quite some time, which is building a platform for applications, independent from the underlying infrastructure, in the Linux days I was X86 hardware, you know, you get this HeteroGenius hardware underneath, and you get a consistent standardized application run time environment on top of Linux. Kubernetes is helping us do that at a distributive level. And it's taken some time for the industry to kind of understand what's going on, and we've been talking about hybrid cloud for years and, you really see it real and happening and it's in action and for us that distributed layer round Kubernetes which just lights up how do you manage distributed applications across complex infrastructure, makes it really real. >> Yeah it's also timing's everything too right? I mean, good timing, that helps, the evolution of the business, you always have these moments and these big waves where you can kind of see clunking going on, people banging against each other and you know, the glue layers developing, and then all of a sudden snaps into place, and then it just scales, right? So you're starting to see that, we've seen this in other ways, TCPIP, Linux itself, and you guys are certainly making that comparison, being Red Hat, but what happens next is usually an amazing growth phase. Again, small little, and move the ball down the field, and then boom, it opens up. As a CTO, you have to look at that 20 mile stair now, what's next? What's that wave coming that you're looking at in the team that you have on Red Hat's side and across your partners? What's the wave next? >> Well there's a lot of activity going on that's beyond what we're building today. And so much of it, first of all, is happening in Open Source. So that itself is awesome. Like we're totally tuned into these environments, it's core to who we are, it's our DNA to be involved in these Open Source communities, and you look across all of the different projects and things like machine learning and blockchain, which are really kind of native Open Source developments, become really relevant in ways that we can change how we build functionality and build business, and build business value in the future. So, those are the things that we look at, what's emerging out of the Open Source communities, what's going to help continue to accelerate developers' ability to quickly build applications? Operations team's ability to really give that broad scale, policy level view of what's going on inside your infrastructure to support those applications, and all the data that we're gathering and needing to sift through and build value from inside the applications, that's very much where we're going. >> Well I think we had a really good example of machine learning used in an everyday enterprise application this morning, they kicked off the keynote, talking about optimizing the schedule and what sessions were in what rooms, you know, using an AI tool right? >> Chris: That's right. >> And so, that's reality as you look at, is that going to be the new reality as you're looking into the future of building in these kind of machine learning opportunities into everyday business applications that, you know, in the yesteryear would've been just some, I don't know, visual basic, or whatever, depending on how far back you look, right? You know, is that really going to be a reality in the enterprise? It seems so. >> It is, absolutely. And so what we're trying to do is build the right platforms, and build the right tools, and then interfaces to those platforms and tools to make it easier and easier for developers to build, you know, what we've been calling "Intelligent Apps", or applications that take advantage of the data, and the insights associated with that data, right in the application. So, the scheduling optimization that you saw this morning in the keynote is a great example of that. Starting with basic rules engine, and augmenting that with machine learning intelligence is one example, and we'll see more and more of that as the sophisticated tools that are coming out of Open Source communities building machine learning platforms, start to specialize and make it easier and easier to do specific machine learning tasks within an application. So you don't have to be a data scientist and an app developer all in one, you know, that's, there's different roles and different responsibilities, and how do we build, develop, life cycle managed models is one question, and how do we take advantage of those models and applications is another question, and we're really looking at that from a Red Hat perspective. >> John F: And the enterprises are always challenged, they always (mumbles), Cloud Native speaks to both now, right? So you got hybrid cloud and now multi-cloud on the horizon, set perfectly up with Open Shift's kind of position in that, kind of the linchpin, but you got, they're still two different worlds. You got the cloud-native born in the cloud, and that's pretty much a restart-up these days, and then you've got legacy apps with container, so the question is, that people are asking is, okay, I get the cloud-native, I see the benefits, I know what the investment is, let's do it upfront, benefits are horizontally scalable, asynchronous, et cetera et cetera, but I got legacy. I want to do micro-servicing, I want to do server-less, do I re-engineer that or just containers, what's the technical view and recommendation from Red Hat when you say, when the CIO says or enterprise says, "Hey I want to go cloud native for over here and new staff, but I got all this old staff, what do I do?". Do I invest more region, or just containerize it, what's the play? >> I think you got to ask kind of always why? Why you're doing something. So, we hear a lot, "Can I containerize it?", often the answer is yes. A different question might be, "What's the value?", and so, a containerized application, whether it's an older application that's stateful or whether it's a newer cloud-native application (mumbles), horizontally scalable, and all the great things, there's value potentially in just the automation around the API's that allow you to lifecycle manage the application. So if the application itself is still continuing to change, we have some great examples with some of our customers, like Keybank, doing what we call the "Fast moving monolith". So it's still a traditional application, but it's containerized and then you build a CICD model around it, and you have automation on how you deliver and deploy production. There's value there, there's also value in your existing system, and maybe building some different services around the legacy system to give you access, API access, to data in that system. So different ways to approach that problem, I don't think there's a one size fits all. >> So Chris, some of this is also a cultural and a process shift. I was impressed this morning, we've already talked with two Red Hat customers, Macquarie and Amadeus, and you know Macquarie was talking about, "Oh yeah we moved 40 applications in a year, you know, onto Open Shift", and it turns out they were already started to be containerized and dockerized and, oh yeah yeah you know, that is standard operating procedure, for that set of companies. There's a long tail of folks who are still dealing with the rest of the stuff we've had to deal, the stack we've had to deal with for years. How is Red Hat, how are you looking at this kind of cultural shift? It's nice that it's real, right? It's not like we're talking about microservices, or some sort of future, you know, Jettison sort of thing, that's going to save us all, it's here today and they're doing it. You know, how are you helping companies get there? >> So we have a practice that we put in place that we call the "Open Innovation Lab". And it's very much an immersive practice to help our customers first get experience building one of these cloud native applications. So we start with a business problem, what are you trying to solve? We take that through a workshop, which is a multi-week workshop, really to build on top of a platform like Open Shift, real code that's really useful for that business, and those engineers that go through that process can then go back to their company and be kind of the change agent for how do we build the internal cultural shift and the appreciation for Agile development methodologies across our organization, starting with some of this practical, tangible and realist. That's one great example of how we can help, and I think part of it is just helping customers understand it isn't just technology, I'm a technologist so there's part of me that feels pain to say that but the practical reality is there's whole organizational shifts, there's mindset and cultural changes that need to happen inside the organization to take advantage of the technology that we put in place to build that optimize. >> John F: And roles are changing too, I'll see the system admin kind of administrative things getting automated way through more operating role. I heard some things last week at CubeCon in Copenhagen, Denmark, and I want to share some quotes and I want to get your reaction. >> Alright. >> This is the hallway, I won't attribute the names but, these were quotes, I need, quote, "I need to get away from VP Engine firewalls. I need user and application layer security with unfishable access, otherwise I'm never safe". Second quote, "Don't confuse lift and shift with running cloud-native global platform. Lot of actors in this system already running seamlessly. Versus say a VM Ware running environment wherein V Center running in a data center is an example of a lift and shift". So the comments are one for (mumbles) cloud, you need to have some sort of security model, and then two, you know we did digital transformation before with VM's, that was a different world, but the new world's not a lift and shift, it's re-architect of a cloud-native global platform. Your reaction to those two things, and what that means to customers as they think about what they're going to look like, as they build that bridge to the future. >> Security peace is critical, so every CIO that we're talking to, it's top of mind, nobody wants to be on the front page of The Wall Street Journal for the wrong reasons. And so understanding, as you build a micro-services software architected application, the components themselves are exposed to services, those services are API's that become potentially part of the attack surface. Thinking of it in terms of VPN's and firewalls, is the kind of traditional way that we manage security at the edge. Hardened at the edge, soft in the middle isn't an acceptable way to build a security policy around applications that are internally exposing parts of their API's to other parts of the application. So, looking at it for me, application use case perspective, which portions of the application need to be able to talk to one another, and it's part of why somebody like Histio are so exciting, because it builds right in to the platform, the notion of mutual authentication between services. So that you know you're talking to a service that you're allowed to talk to. Encryption associated with that, so that you get another level of security for data and motion, and all of that is not looking at what is the VPN or what is the VLAN tag, or what is the encapsulation ID, and thinking layer two, layer three security, it's really application layer, and thinking in terms of that policy, which pieces of the application have to talk to each other, and nobody else can talk to that service unless it's, you know, understood that that's an important part for how the application works. So I think, really agree, and you could even say DevSecOps to me is something that I've come around to. Initially I thought it was a bogus term and I see the value in considering security at every step of build, test and deliver an application. Lift and shift, totally different topic. What does it mean to lift and shift? And I think there's still, some people want to say there's no value in lift and shift, and I don't fully agree, I think there's still value in moving, and modernizing the platform without changing the application, but ultimately the real value does come in re-architecting, and so there's that balance. What can you optimize by moving? And where does that free up resources to invest in that real next generation application re-architecting? >> So Chris, you've talked about machine learning, right? Huge amounts of data, you've just talked about security, we've talked about multi-cloud, to me that says we might have an issue in the future with the data layer. How are people thinking about the data layer, where it lives, on prem, in the cloud, think about GDPR compliance, you know, all that sort of good stuff. You know, how are you and Red Hat, how are you asking people to think about that? >> So, data management is a big question. We build storage tooling, we understand how to put the bytes on disc, and persist, and maintain the storage, it's a different question what are the data services, and what is the data governance, or policy around placement, and I think it's a really interesting part of the ecosystem today. We've been working with some research partners in the Massachusetts Open Cloud and Boston University on a project called "Cloud Dataverse", and it has a whole policy question around data. 'Cause there, scientists want to share data sets, but you have to control and understand who you're sharing your data sets with. So, it's definitely a space that we are interested in, understand, that there's a lot of work to be done there, and GDPR just kind of shines a light right on it and says policy and governance around where data is placed is actually fundamental and important, and I think it's an important part, because you've seen some of the data issues recently in the news, and you know, we got to get a handle on where data goes, and ultimately, I'd love to see a place where I'm in control of how my data is shared with the rest of the world. >> John F: Yeah, certainly the trend. So a final question for you, Open Source absolutely greatness going on, more and more good things are happening in projects, and bigger than ever before, I mean machine learning's a great example, seeing not just code snippets, code bases being you know, TensorFlow jumps out at me (mumbles), what are you doing here this year that's new and different from an Open Source standpoint, but also from a Red Hat standpoint that's notable that people should pay attention to? >> Well, one of the things that we're focused on is that platform layer, how do we enable a machine learning workload to run well on our platform? So it starts actually at the very bottom of the stack, hardware enablement. You got to get GPUs functional, you got to get them accessible to virtual machine based applications, and container based applications, so that's kind of table stakes. Accelerate a machine learning workload to make it usable, and valuable, to an enterprise by reducing the training and interference times for a machine learning model. Some of the next questions are how do we embed that technology in our own products? So you saw Access Insights this morning, talking about how we take machine learning, look at all of the data that we're gathering from the systems that our customers are deploying, and then derive insights from those and then feed those back to our customers so they can optimize the infrastructure that they're building and running and maintaining, and then, you know, the next step is that intelligent application. How do we get that machine learning capability into the hands of the developer, and pair the data scientist with the developers so you build these intelligent applications, taking advantage of all the data that you're gathering as an enterprise, and turning that into value as part of your application development cycle. So those are the areas that we're focused on for machine learning, and you know, some of that is partnering, you know, talking through how do we connect some of these services from Open Shift to the cloud service providers that are building some of these great machine learning tools, so. >> Any new updates on (mumbles) the success of Red Hat just in the past two years? You see the growth, that correlates, that was your (mumbles) Open Shift, and a good calls there, positioned perfectly, analysts, financial analysts are really giving you guys a lot of props on Wall Street, about the potential revenue growth opportunities on the business side, what's it like now at Red Hat? I mean, do you look back and say, "Hey, it was only like three years ago we did this", and I mean, the vibes are good, I mean share some inside commentary on what's happening inside Red Hat. >> It's really exciting. I mean, we've been working on these things for a long time. And, the simplest example I have is the combination of tools like the JBoss Middleware Suite and Linux, well they could run well together and we have a lot of customers that combine those, but when you take it to the next step, and you build containerized services and you distribute those broadly, you got a container platform, you got middleware components, you know, even providing functionality as services, you see how it all comes together and that's just so exciting internally. And at the same time we're growing. And a big part of-- >> John F: Customers are using it. >> Customers are using it, so putting things into production is critical. It's not just exciting technology but it's in production. The other piece is we're growing, and as we grow, we have to maintain the core of who we are. There's some humility that's involved, there's some really core Open Source principles that are involved, and making sure that as we continue to grow, we don't lose sight of who we are, really important thing for our internal culture, so. >> John F: Great community driven, and great job. Chris, thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. Chris Wright, CTO of Red Hat, sharing his insights here on theCUBE. Of course, bringing you all a live action as always here in San Francisco in Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018, we'll be right back. (electronic music) (intense music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's special coverage here at Red Hat Summit. This is exclusive three days of wall-to-wall coverage of theCUBE. I've been covering Red Hat for years. Excited to be back here at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of theCUBE, with my co-host analyst this week, John Troyer. He's the CEO of TechReckoning, an advisory firm in the technology industry as well as an influencer, and he advises on influencer and influencer of communities. I would say it's community focused. John, great to see you. Welcome to the Red Hat Summit. We're going to kick it off! >> Great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> So you know I am pretty bullish on open source. I have been from day one. At my age who have lived through the wars of when it was second class citizen. Now it's first class citizen. Software power in the world. Again, on and on, this is not a new story. What is the new story is the cloud impact to the world of open source and business. We're seeing the results of Amazon just continue to be skyrocketing. You see Microsoft as you're having their developer conference of Microsoft Build this week. Google I/O is also this week. There is a variety of events happening. It's all pointing to cloud economics, cloud scale, and the role of software and data, and Red Hat has been a big time winner in taking advantage of these trends by making some good bets. >> Absolutely. I think one of the words were going to hear a lot this week is OpenShift. They are a container and cloud platform. Hybrid cloud is a super big emphasis here. Hybrid cloud, multi cloud already on stage at the first key note. They had a big stack of machines and they were going out to a multi cloud deployment right there on stage. Open source, also huge this week, right? The key note, the tagline, of the whole conference, if you are interested in open source, you should be here. I think you nailed it. It's going to be about multi cloud. >> It's exciting for me, I got to say. The disruption that's happening obviously with IT, with cloud, is pretty much out there. We pretty much recognize IT as transforming into a whole other look in terms of how it's operating, but the interesting thing that's just happening recently is the overwhelming takeover of Kubernetes and the conversation and in the stack you're seeing a rallying point and a rallying cry and establishing a de facto standard of Kubernetes. The big news of 2018 is, to me, the de facto standard of Kubernetes across a multi cloud, hybrid cloud architecture to allow developers and also infrastructure providers the ability to move workloads around, managing workloads across clouds. This is kind of the holy grail outcome everyone's looking for is how do I get to a true multi cloud world? And I think Kubernetes this year has the stake in the ground to say we're going to make that the interoperable capability. And Red Hat made a bet a couple years ago, three, four years ago. Everyone was scratching their head. What the hell are they doing with Kubernetes? What's Red Hat-- They're looking like geniuses now because of the results. >> Absolutely. In fact, I think by the end my joke is going to be this is the OpenShift Summit. I'll be very interested, John in your observations. You were at KubeCon last week. So that's the open source project and the ecosystem around Kubernetes. Red Hat owns a lot of Kubernetes. Red Hat employs many of the Kubernetes' leaders. They have really taken over from Google in a lot of ways about the implementation and go-forward path for Kubernetes. So this is the show that takes that open source project and packages it into something that an IT buyer can understand and take. >> I got to say one of the things that is interesting, and this is not well-reported in the news. It's a nuanced point but it's kind of an interesting thing, I think an inflection point for Red Hat. By them buying CoreOS has been a really good outcome for both companies. CoreOS, pure open source DNA in that business. Those guys were doing some amazing technology development, and again, all pure open source. Total pure. There is nothing wrong with being a pure open source. My point is, when you have that kind of religious point of view and then the pressure to monetize it Docker has had. We know what happened there. So CoreOS was doing amazing things but it kind of took a lot of pressure from the market. How are you going to make money? You know I always say it's hard to make money when you're trying to do it too early. So CoreOS lands at Red Hat who has generations of commercialization. Those two together is really going to give Red Hat the capability to go to the next level when you talk about applications. It's going to increase their total addressable market. It's going to give them more range. And with Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard, OpenShift now can become a key platform as a service that really enables new applications, new management capabilities. This should expand the RHEL opportunity from a market standpoint in a significant, meaningful way. I think if you're like a financial analyst or you're out there looking at this going, hmm, where's the dots connecting? It's connecting up the stack, software to service, with DevOps, with cloud native, Red Hat is positioned well. So that's my takeaway from KubeCon. >> Interesting. Yeah, before we move away from CoreOS, a lot of announcements today about how Red Hat will be incorporating CoreOS technologies into their platform. They talked about the operator framework. I think one of the bigger pieces of news is that CoreOS' OS, called Container Linux changes its name back to CoreOS and will now be the standard container operating system for Red Hat. That's kind of big news because Red Hat had its own atomic host, its own kind of micro, mini Linux distribution and so now they're switching over to that. They also talked about Tectonic, which actually is a really good automated operations stack, some of those technologies. In the future they will be incorporated into OpenShift. So they were talking a little bit about futures but it at least they've given a roadmap. No one was quite sure what the super-smart rocket scientists at CoreOS were doing here and so now we know a little more. >> And also at KubeCon they announced the open source of the operator framework. It's an open source toolkit for managing Kubernetes clusters. Again, and first of all, I love the CoreOS name. This is all about what Red Hat is doing. Now let's not forget the ecosystem that Red Hat has. So you're talking about a company that's been successful in open source for multiple generations now. Looking forward to this next generation modern infrastructure, you're seeing the stack look completely different with the cloud. If you look at all the presentations from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, the stack is not the old stack. It's a new concept. New things are happening so you've got to swap some pieces out. You get CoreOS, you bring that in, new puzzle piece. But look at the deals they're doing. They did a relationship with IBM, so IBM's back into the fold with Red Hat joining forces. >> Containerizing some of their biggest components like WebLogic and Dv2 and MQ. >> I think the containerization will create a nice compatibility mode, bring these old legacy apps into a modern cloud native architecture and gives that an opportunity to kind of get into the game, but also bring cloud native to the table. >> Absolutely. >> You've got IoT Edge, all these new applications. You just can't go anywhere without hearing about Internet of Things, machine learning, AI, cameras, whatnot. All this is happening. >> Absolutely. So we're going to break it down all week for the next three days. Red Hat Summit. It's all about containers, it's all about the Linux moment, kind of going to the next level. Cloud native, big time data action. All the great stuff happening. All done with open source with projects with new products being commercialized from these projects. This is the open source ethos. This is of course theCUBE coverage. We'll be back with more live coverage here in San Francisco at Moscone West after this short break.

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE live here in San Francisco at Moscone West Fourth, Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of theCUBE with John Troyer, the co-founder of TechReckoning, an advisory firm in the area of open source communities and technology. Our next guest is Cube alumni Dietmar Fauser, head of core platforms and middleware at Amadeus, experienced Red Hatter, event go-er, and practitioner. Great to have you back, great to see you. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So why are you here, what's going on? Tell us the latest and greatest. What's going on in your world? Obviously, you've been on theCUBE. You go on YouTube, there's a lot of videos on there, you go into great detail on. You been on the Docker journey. You got Red Hat, you got some Oracle. You got a complex environment. You're managing cloud native-like services. Tell us about it. >> We do so, yes, so this time I am here mostly to feed back some experience of concrete implementation out there in the Cloud and on premise so. Paul told me that the theme was mostly hybrid cloud deployments so we have chosen two of our really big applications to explain how concretely this works out with you and when you deploy on the Cloud. >> So you were up on stage this morning in the keynote. I think the scale of your operation maybe raised some eyebrows as well. You're talking about over a trillion transactions. Can you talk a little bit about, talk about your multi-cloud stance and what you showed this morning. >> Okay, so first to frame a bit of the trillion transactions. It's not traditional data based transactions. It's individual data access and highly in-memory cached environment. So I'd say that's a very large number and it's a significant challenge to produce this system. So we're talking about like more than 100,000 core deployments of this applications so. Response time matters extremely in this game because at the end what we are talking here about is the back end that powers large P2C sites, like Kayak, some major search engines, online travel agencies. So it just has to respond in a very fast way. Which pushed us to deploy the solutions very close to where the transactions are really originating to avoid our historical data centers in Germany. We just want to take out the back and forth travel under the Atlantic basically to create a better end user experience at the end. >> Furrier: So you had to drive performance big time? >> We, very much. It's either performance or higher availability or both actually. >> This is a true hybrid cloud, right? You're on prem, you're in AWS, and you're in Google Cloud. So could you talk a little bit about that? All powered by OpenShift. >> OpenShift is the common denominator of the solutions. Some of our core design goals is to build the applications in a platform agnostic way. So an application should not know what's its deployment topology, what's the underlying infrastructure. Which is why I believe that platforms like OpenShift and Kubernetes underneath are so important, because they take over the role of a traditional operating system, but at a larger scale. Either in big Cloud deployments or on premise, but the span of operations that you get with these environments is just like an OS but on a bigger scale. It's not a surprise that people talked about this like a data center operating system for a while. We use it this way so OpenShift is clearly the masterpiece, I would say of the deployment. >> That's the key though, I think, thinking about it as an operating system or an operating environment is the kind of the architectural mindset that you have to be in. Because you've got to look at these resources and connections, link them together. You've got all these team systems constant. So you've got to be a systems person kind of design. How does someone get there that may or may not have traditional systems experience? Like us surly generation systems folks have gone through. Because you have devops automating away things. You have more of an SRE model that Google's talking about. Talking about large scale, it's not a data center anymore, it's an operating environment. How do people get there? What's your recommendation, how do I learn more. What do I do to deploy architecturally? >> That's a key question I think. I think there were two sections to your question, how to get there, so. I think at Amadeus we are pretty good at catching early big trends in the industry. We are very close to large engineering houses like Google and Facebook and others like Red Hat of course and so, it was pretty quickly clear to us, at least to a small amount of these decision-makers that the combination of Red Hat and Google was kind of, a game-changing event, which is why we went there, so. It's, I mean. >> Furrier: The containers have been important for you guys. >> Containers were coming along, so, when this happened Docker became big, our development teams, they wanted to do containers. It was not something that the management has had to push for, it was grassroots type of adoption here. So different pieces fed together that gave us some form of certainty, or a belief that these platforms would be around for a decade to come. >> Developers love Kubernetes, and I mean that, containers, it's like a fish to water, it's just natural. Now talk about Kubernetes now, OpenShift made a bet with Kubernetes, obviously, a few years ago. People were like, what is that about? Now it's obvious why. How are you looking at the Kubernetes trade, obviously it creates a de facto capability, you can wrap services around it, there's a notion of service meshes coming, Istio is the hottest product in the Linux Foundation, CNCF, KubeFlow is right behind it, I mean these are kind of thinking about service and micro-services and workload management. How do you view that, what's your opinion on that direction? >> I'm afraid there is no simple answer to this, because if you start new solutions from scratch, going directly to Kubernetes, OpenShift is the natural way. Now the big thing in large corporations is we all have legacy applications, whatever we call legacy applications, in our case these are pretty large C++ environments that are relatively modern but they are not strictly micro-service based and they are a bit fatter, they have an enterprise service bus on top of this, and so it's not, and we have very awkward, old network protocols, so going straight to the mesh for these applications and micro-services is not a possibility because there is significant re-engineering needed in our own applications before we believe it makes sense to throw them onto a container platform. We could stick all of this in a container but you have to wonder whether you get the benefit you really want to. >> Furrier: Time ROI, return on investment, on the engineering, retrofitting it for service mesh. >> Yes, I mean, the interesting thing is Kubernetes or not, we would have touched these applications anyway to cut them into more manageable pieces. We call this compartmentalization. Other people may call this micro-service-ification, or however we want to call this. So that's, to me this is work that is independent from the cloud strategy in itself. Some of our applications, to move faster, we have decided to put them more or less as they are onto OpenShift, others we take some more time to say, okay let's do the engineering homework first so that we reap the full benefits of this platform, and the benefit really is, what is fundamental for developers, efficiency and agility is that you have relatively small, independent load sets, so that you can quickly load small pieces, you can roll them in. >> Time to production, time from developer to production. >> But also quality, the less isolated, the more you isolate the changes, the less you run the risk that a change is cross-impacting things that are in the same delivery basically. It's a lot about, smaller chunks of software that are managed and for this obviously a micro-service platform is absolutely ideal. So it helps us to push the spirit of the company in this direction, no more monolithical applications, fast daily loads. >> Morale's higher, people happy. >> Well, it's a long journey, so some are happy, some are impatient like me to move faster. Some are still a bit reluctant, it's normal in larger organizations. >> Talk about the scale, I'm really interested in your reaction and experience, let's talk about the scale. I think that's a big story. As cloud enables more horizontally scalable applications, the operating aperture is bigger. It's not like managing systems here, it's a little bit bigger picture. How are you guys looking at the operational framework of that, because now you're essentially a site reliable engineering role, that's what Google talks, in SRE, but now you're operating but you're still developing code, and you're writing applications. So, talk about that dynamic and how you see that playing out going forward. >> So, what we try to do is to separate the platform aspects from the application aspects, so I'm leading the platform engineering unit, including platform operations, so this means that we have the platform SRE role, if you want, so we oversee frontline operations 24 by seven stability of the global system. To me, the game is really about trying to separate and isolate as much as we can from the applications to put it on the platform because we have, like, close to 100 applications running on the platform and if we can fix stuff on the platform for all the applications without being involved in the individual load cycles and waiting for them to integrate some features, we just move much faster. >> You can decouple the application from some core platform features, make them highly cohesive, sounds like an operating system to me. >> It is, and I'll come to the second thought of the SRE a bit later, but currently the big bulk of the work we are doing with OpenShift is now to bring our classical platform stuff under OpenShift. And by classical application, I mean our internal components like security, business rule engines, communication systems, but also the data management side of the house. And I think this is what we're going to witness over the next two or three years, is how can we manage, like, in our case CouchBase, Kafka, all of those things, we want them to be managed as applications under OpenShift with descriptive blueprints, descriptive configurations which means you define the to-be state of a system and you leave OpenShift to ensure that if the to-be state is like, I need 1000 ports for a given application, is violated OpenShift will repair automatically the system. >> That's interesting, you bring up a dynamic that's a trend we're seeing, I want to get your thoughts on this. And it hasn't really been kind of crystallized and yet I haven't heard a good explanation but, the trend seems to be to have many databases. In other words, we're living in a world where there's a database for everything, but not one database. So, like, if I got an application at the edge of the network, it can have its own database, so we shouldn't have to design around a database concept, it should be, concept should still be databases everything, living and growing and managing it. How are, first of all do you believe that, and if so, how do you architect the platform to manage potentially ubiquitous amount of different kinds of databases where the apps are kind of driving their own database role, and working with the core platform. Seems to be an area people are really talking about, because this is where AI shines if you get that right. >> So I agree with you that there are a lot of solutions out there. Sometimes a bit confusing choice, which type of solutions to choose. In our case we have quite a mature, what we call a technical policy, a catalog of technologies that application designers can choose from, so there are several data management stores in there. Traditionally speaking we use Oracle, so Oracle is there and is a good solution for many use cases. We were very early in the Nosql space so we have introduced Couchbase for highly scalable environments, Mongo for more sophisticated objects or operations. We try to educate, or to talk with our application people not to go outside of this. We also use Redis for our platform internal things, so we try to narrow their choices down. >> Stack the databases, what about the glue layer? Any kind of glue layer standards, gluing things together? >> In general we always put an API layer on top of the solutions, so we use our own infrastructure independence layer when we talk to the databases, so we try not to have those native bindings in the application, it's always about disentangling platform aspects from the application. >> So Dietmar, you did talk about this architectural concept, right, of these layers, and you're protecting the application from the platform, what about underneath, right? You're running on multiple clouds. What have been the challenges of, in theory, you know, there's a separation layer there and OpenShift is underneath everything, you've got OpenStack, you've got the public clouds, have there been some challenges operationally in making sure everything runs the same? >> There are multiple challenges, so to start with, the different infrastructures do not behave exactly the same, so just taking something from Google to Amazon, it works in theory but practically speaking the APIs are not exactly the same, so you need to remap the APIs. The underlying behavior is not exactly the same. In general from an application design point of view, and we are pretty used to this anyway because we are distributed systems specialists, but the learning curve comes from the fact that you go to an infrastructure that is, in itself, much less reliable if you look to individual pieces of it. It works fine if you use well the availabilities on concepts and you start with the mindset that you can lose availabilities or even complete regions and take this as a granted, natural event that will happen. If you are in this mindset there aren't so many surprises, OpenShift operates very well with the unreliability of virtual machines. We even contract, in the case of Google, what is called preemptive VM so they get restarted anyway very frequently because they have a different value proposition so if you can run with less reliable stuff you pay less, basically. So if you can take advantage of this, you have another advantage using those. >> Dietmar, it's great to hear your stories, congratulations on your success and all the work you're doing, it's sounds like really cutting-edge and great work. You've been to many Red Hats. What's the revelation this year? What's the big thing that people should know about that's happening in 2018? Is it Kubernetes? What should people pay attention to from your opinion? >> I think we can take Kubernetes now as granted. That's very good news for me and for Amadeus, it was quite a bet at the beginning but we see this now as the de facto standard, and so I think people can now relax and say, okay this is one of the pieces that will be predominant for the decade to come. Usually I'm referring to IT decades, only three years long, not 10 years. >> Okay, and as moving to an operating system environment, I love that analogy. I think it's totally right from the data that we see. We're living in a cloud native world, hybrid cloud on-premise, still true private cloud as Wikibon calls it and really it's an operating system concept architecturally, and IoT is coming fast. It's just going to create more and more data. >> So, what I believe, and what we believe in general at Amadeus is that the next evolution of systems, the big architectural design approach will be to create applications that are much more streaming oriented because it allows to decouple the different computing steps much more. So rather than waiting for a transaction, you subscribe to an event, and any number of processes can subscribe to an event, the producer doesn't have to know who is consuming what, so we go streaming data-centric and massively asynchronous. Which, which, which yields smoother throughput, less hiccups because in transactional systems you always have something that slows down temporarily a little bit, it's very difficult to architect systems with absolute separation of concerns in mind, so sometimes a slowdown of a disk might trigger impacts to other systems. With a streaming and asynchronous approach the systems tend to be much more stable with higher throughput. >> And a lot more scalable. There's the horizontally scalable nature of the cloud, you've got to have the streaming and this architecture in place. This is a fundamental mistake we see with people out there, they don't think like this but then when they hit scale points, it breaks. >> Absolutely, and so, I mean we are a highly transactional shop but many of our use cases already are asynchronous so we go a deep step further on this and we currently work on bringing Kafka massively under OpenShift because we're going to use Kafka to connect data center footprints for all types of data that we have to stream to the application that are out in the public cloud, or on premise basically. >> We should call you professor because this was such a great segment, thanks for sharing an awesome amount of insight on theCube. Thanks for coming on, good to see you again. Dietmar Fauser, head of core platforms and middleware at Amadeus. You know, down and dirty, getting under the hood really at the architecture of scale, high availability, high performance of the systems to be scalable with cloud, obviously open source is powering it, OpenShift and Red Hat. It's theCube bringing you all the power here in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier and John Troyer, we'll be back with more after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by The OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost this week has been John Troyer. This is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE, worldwide leader in live tech coverage. And this has been OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts. John, we came in with a lot of questions. One of my premises, coming into the event was that we needed to reset expectations, a little bit. I know I learned a lot this week. Still one of my favorite communities. A lot of really smart people. Really interesting things going on. Open source infrastructure is really the focus here. Start with you, big meta takeaways from the show so far. >> Big picture, my first summit, my first summit here. Didn't quite know what to expect. I love the community, a lot of activity. A lot of real world activity going on. People building clouds today. So that was very insightful and very, that's a great data point. As far as the ecosystem goes, a lot more talk about integrating with the rest of the open source ecosystem, about integrating with other public and private clouds. So I thought that there was also a lot of self awareness here about where OpenStack is on it's journey and how it might proceed into the future. So overall, I think, you know, a really practical, focused, and grounded week. >> Yeah, came in with the whole concept of big tent. I think which we said, there's a big hole poked in that. There's the core is doing well, there's a number of projects, I forget the user survey, whether you know, there's the kind of the six core pieces and then there's like 9 or 10 in the average configuration. So there's more than the core, there's interesting things going into it and last year I felt that OpenStack kind of understood where it fit into that hybrid cloud environment. As you pointed out this year, some of those upper layer things, I feel like I understand them a little more. So, of course, containers and Kubernetes, a big piece of the discussion this week. Containers definitely transforming the way we build our applications. It seems a given now, that containers will be a big part of the future and OpenStack's ready for it. We had yesterday, we had the people that did the demo in the keynote, but containers doing well. Kubernetes fits in pretty well, even though, I think it was Randy Bias that said, "Well, OpenStack needs Kubernetes." My paraphrase is Kubernetes doesn't need OpenStack. KubeCon is going to be in Austin at the end of the year and that show could be bigger than this show was here in Boston. Year over year, for the North American show, attendance is down a little bit, but still robust attendance, lots of different pieces. Containers, Kubernetes, you mentioned some of the other pieces, any other add-ons on that? >> Well now, I mean other than its worth saying that these are not either or, this is all and. If you look at the total addressable market, every place that containers and Kubernetes can play, that's every cloud in the world, right? It's up there at the application layer. If you look at where OpenStack belongs, it is in these private clouds that have special needs, that have, either from privacy, security or functionality latency, just data gravity, right. There's all these reasons why you might want to build out a public cloud and we see that with Telco. Telecomm is building out their own infrastructure, because they need it, because they run the network core. So that's not going away. As far as containers go, again the story was not either or, it's and. You can containerize the infrastructure. That's super useful. Sometimes being bare metal is useful. Separately, you can put containers on top, because that's increasingly becoming the application packaging and interface format. So, I didn't see a lot of ideology here, Stu, and that was refreshing to me. People were not saying there is one true way. This is a modular system that, at this point in it's life cycle, it has to become very pragmatic. >> John, I think that's a great point, because we knock on, and everybody knocks on, OpenStack's not simple and the reason is because IT is not simple. Everybody has different challenges, therefore, it's not a Lego brick, it's lots of ways we put it together. Had some really interesting deep dives with a customer, couple of users today. The Adobe advertising cloud, Paddy Power Betfair, both of those gave us real concrete examples of how and why they build things the way they do. How OpenStack and Kubernetes go together. How acquiring another company, or switching your storage vendors is made easier by OpenStack. So, we've talked to a number of practitioners, they like OpenStack, reminds me of VMware. People like being able to build it and tweak it. Very different scale for some of these environments, but people are building clouds. The Telecom's are doing some good things. All the Linux companies are super excited about the future, that it helps them kind of move up the stack and become more critical environments and how it all ties into this multi-hybrid cloud world. Digital transformation, many of these pieces, I need that modern infrastructure and the open infrastructure coming from OpenStack and related pieces pull it all together. >> Well, where is the innovation going to come from in this next generation of cloud? I thought our segment with Orran, talking about the Massachusetts open cloud, was great, because he's there as a computer science professor, somebody who's been intimately involved with virtualization, with IBM, with VMware, saying, "Okay, we need to build this next generation. "Where can we innovate? We have to own the stack "and OpenStack is a great way for us to innovate "with those different components." One of the challenges, because OpenStack as a set of technologies, is so modular, is where's the knowledge come from? Where's the knowledge transfer? Can you find an OpenStack expert? Do you have to grow them? So, I see that as one challenge going forward for the OpenStack community, is how do we grow the knowledge base? How do we make sure that people are trained up and able to architect and operate OpenStack based clouds? >> Yeah, John, how about the individuals themselves? We talked to Lisa-Marie Namphy about the Ambassadors Program. We talked to a number of our guests throughout the week about training everything, from Orran Krieger, talking about how his students are helping to build this, to engagement contribution. I mean it's nuance, when I look at the future of jobs. A lot of companies here are hiring. Which is always heartening to me. What's your take on that aspect? >> Well, it's still a very vibrant community. You look at these different camps, a lot of them are vendor affiliated these days. There are very few communities that are outside of a vendor and these open source foundations are one source of those. I think, look there's still 5 or 6,000 people here, right? This is not a small event and these people are active, hands on operators, for the most part. So-- >> Yeah and the thing I'd point out, there are lots of companies that have contributors here. The other category is still really big here. A point Lisa-Marie made, many of the people that have contributed here have switched jobs a number of times. NASA helped start it. They kind of left, they came back. Some of the big Telecom companies, they're not selling OpenStack, they're using it to help build their services. So, it's like wait, which are vendors, which are providers? I think we know everybody's becoming a software company. Wait John, TechReckoning, are you a software company yet? >> We use a lot of soft, we use a lot of cloud, mostly on SaaS side. >> At SiliconANGLE Media we actually have a part of our business that is software. We've got a full development team, you know open source plays into somewhat we do, but I guess what I'm saying is, the traditional demarcation between the vendor and the consumer in open source tends to be blurring. I don't remember in the keynote if they had, hey how many people have contributed to the code. That's something that we used to get, partially because we have splintered out this event a little as to, the goals, it's no longer the people building it. They've got lots of ways to do that and a lot of the drama's gone. We had for many years in OpenStack, it was who's going to own what distribution and who's driving what project and a lot of that's come out. We talked about the last couple of years, has it become boring in certain ways? But it's important, it's driving a lot of pieces and OpenStack should be here to stay for awhile. >> Yeah, it's part of the conversation. I love the term open infrastructure. We heard it once or twice. We'll see if that becomes a topic of conversation. Going back to Lisa-Marie Namphy's segment, I encourage people to check out your local OpenStack meet-up right? You'll find that other conversations are going on there, other than just OpenStack. This is an ecosystem, it interacts with the rest of the world. >> Yeah, and talk about that next generation, edge is really interesting, the conversation we had with Beth Cohen. Also talked to Lee Doyle from the analysts perspective. Lots of cool things happening with that next generation of technology. 5G's going to play into it. So, there's always the next next thing and OpenStack's doing a good job to, as a community, to be open, working with it and understanding that they don't need to be all things to all people, certain other pieces will pull in and we have that broad diverse ecosystem. >> Looks a, I'll go out and make a prediction, I think in five years, we're going to look back and we're going to say, actually, OpenStack driven plumbing is going to be driving a lot of the next generation to the internet. >> Yeah, I love that, actually I forget if it's two or three years ago, what I said was that, as Linux took a long time to kind of work its way into all the environments, OpenStack pieces will find its way there. Brian Stevens from Google said, "If it wasn't for open source, in general, "Linux specifically, we wouldn't have "any of the hyperscale guys today." All those companies leverage open source a bunch. We've heard whisperings that, not just the telecommunications, some very large global companies that are trying to figure out how OpenStack fit into it. Coming into the show, it was all the talk about, oh, Intel stopped its joint lab with Rackspace, HPE pulled its cloud out, there's some other hyperscale companies that are looking at OpenStack. It's reached a certain maturity and it will fit in a number of places. All right, well, hey John, we started the beginning of the week, it was cloudy and overcast, a little cool in Boston. The skies opened up, it's blue. I've loved having two weeks here in Boston. Really appreciate you joining me for the journey here. Here for the OpenStack Summit. >> Thanks for having me, it was fascinating. >> Thank you John. Want to thank our audience, and thank the whole team here in Boston, and the broad SiliconANGLE media team. This is our biggest week that we've ever had, as to how much content we're creating. So, thanks so much to everyone. Thanks for our community for watching. As anything, when they scale, let us know if there's things we need to fix or feedback that you have for us. For Stu Miniman, John Troyer, the whole team here in Boston and beyond, I want to thank you so much for watching theCUBE. Be sure to check out SiliconANGLE TV for all the upcoming events. Let us know where we should be at and feel free to reach to us with any comments, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (light techno music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Austin Texas it's the Cube. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back to the Cube SiliconAngle Media's production of DockerCon 2017. I'm Stew Miniman, and joining me for the rap today I have Jim Kobilus who's been my host for the whole day, part of the Wikibon team. Jim, it's been a long day. Your first full day on the Cube, you've been on many times. >> It's been invigorating, I've learned so much. This is an awesomely substantial show. It's been wonderful. We've had so many great guests, oh my gosh. Ben Golub and everybody who came before. Amazing material. >> Stu: And my other guest for the wrap up is John Troyer who's been on the program many times. He sometimes guest host of the program so Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning. John, thanks for joining us. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me, Stu. >> Alright, so you know, we think right, guests we had some really good guests. It's easy for me at the end of the day when you're like oh it's energy flag oh let's have Ben Golub, the CEO of the company that where Docker's gone, and Jerry Chen who always brings energy, part of the V mafia like yourself, John so really interesting stuff. I want to step back, let's talk about the keynote. So I guess John, I'll start with you. Something we've been talking the last year or so is this Docker, Docker, Docker hype. I felt like a little bit of a hype was let out over the last year with the Docker data center, Docker swarm type activity, some of the ecosystem was a little frustrated with the direction that Docker the company was going, compared to where they wanted the open source part to do. Lot of open source, lot of developer talk today. What's your take on the announcements, the ecosystem, opensource? There's so many things, but let's get us started. >> Sure. Well I didn't quite know what to expect, Stu. We hear about Docker going more enterprise, they just made a big enterprise announcement, so I thought we might come in here and hear 45 minutes on digital transformation. And the standard enterprise keynote that you get at every other keynote. And we did not get that this morning. >> I've seen Michael Dell give that keynote in this building. (laughs) So, totally. >> At least we didn't get that here we've all heard that elsewhere. >> Well, at every conference for the last five years, I think. Ten years. So we talked about the ecosystem, that was the first message this morning. It was about growth of the ecosystem, about growth of the partnership, growth of the projects and so that was definitely playing to their strengths, and then they went straight to the code. This was a developer centered keynote, they did live demos with real code. And so they were really playing to the audience here which I think is still predominately developers. So they were signaling that hey, they weren't going all enterprise. Now, the announcements were also interesting. But I think the signal from the keynote was that we are still here, we're all about developer experience, we're about making things simple. >> Yeah, I don't think there's too many shows where you'd start off and they're like oh, here's how you can build really large containers, easier with this multi-part build and filling all this Docker stuff. It's not the suits, it's not the big customers. Having said, does that mean you won't go to tomorrow's keynote because Ben said it's going to be all the enterprise stuff tomorrow. >> I live for the enterprise stuff. I'm really excited about tomorrow. So hopefully, not too much digital transformation. But I think what Docker has announced the last month, not even talking about what happened today, but the Docker packaging, the Docker data, Docker enterprise edition versus consumer edition, and then not consumer, community addition, sorry. And then the tiers of the Docker, Docker enterprise edition, I think is really kind of brilliant. Docker is at a real turning point in its evolution right now. And there was a lot of confusion around what is Docker the project, what is Docker the engine, what is Docker the company, and I think with this kind of packaging, and then with the announcements today, I really think that they've just cleared up a whole lot of confusion in the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean coming in I think I heard a lot of people who were really excited that container D got open sourced. We went to, all three of us went to kubernetes event last night that was over at the Google Fiber Space a couple of blocks from here. And it was oh, cool I get all the opensource like Docker one, that stuff I need, but not all that upper level stuff and advanced things that Docker is building in to it so there's opensource pieces. That goes into the Moby project. Docker's committing, doubling down on a lot of this. We're going to take all these pieces. We're going to work on them, community's going to build it, they can take that compostable view of putting their solutions. And Docker will package and have monetization and things that they'll do there but the partner ecosystem can do different things with that. So what do you guys take on, let's just start with the Moby project first, some of these open source, the whole ecosystem. Positive, you think it's good? >> Yes, very much so. So the maturation of the container ecosystem is in the form of, what you see though the announcements, one of which is customization. So customize containers to the finest degree. They've got that capability now with Moby, exactly. It's all about containers everywhere. Containerization of applications is now the dominant theme in the developer community across all segments. So I think Docker has done the right thing which is doubling down on developers, doubling down on the message and the tooling now for both customization of containers but also for portability with the Linux kit announcement and so forth. Containerization, micro services and so forth across all segments. One of the areas I focus on is artificial intelligence, deep learning. Containerization is coming to that in a big way as well. A lot of it is to drive things like autonomous vehicles and drones and whatnot. But we're going to see containerization come to every other segment of data science, deep learning, machine learning and so forth. It's not just the people at this show, it's other developer communities that are coming to containerization in a big way. And Docker is becoming a premier development tool then for them. Or will be. >> So Jim, Stu, I think even more tactically, there was this confusion about Docker the engine, Docker the container run time, Docker the container specification. Now as pulling that out with container D and now with Linux kit, you always had the thing where Red Hat would say well we have open shift, it's like Docker or it has a piece of Docker or it can work with Docker, you have Cloud Foundry it's like Docker, or has a Docker, or can work with Docker now. And so everybody had to do this dance by saying well, we use some of the technology there. Now, very clean split, very different branding, we use Linux kit, we use container D, we use the Moby framework. And that actually will help again, look, the death of commercial success is confusion. If a buyer does not understand how to get what you want or what you're selling, he's never going to buy anything. >> Yeah, I think we've seen the end of Docker's well, batteries included but removable, cause some confusion in the marketplace. People are like well, but it's not easy, that's kind of what's there, I want to be able to choose the pieces up front. We talked about with Brian Gracely earlier today, what is the pinioned platform because there's certain solutions. Microsoft wants to build what they want. And they've lots of options, but when they want to build an upper level service, they have the pieces underneath that they care about. It's not like oh, okay wait. I have to do this, then I have to uninstall this, that was like in Linux all the time. It's like up, I'm recompiling, I'm recompiling, I have to add things in and remove them it's like no, no, no. I want it in box. In the kernel. And then I can choose and activate what I need. >> My guess is that next year, my prediction is that next year at DockerCon Docker will double down on experience, developer experience. There's not a enough of it yet, here. I think that will be a core theme for them going forward to continue to deepen their mind share in that community. >> I actually, I'll take that and double it. So, one of the reasons that, I think one of the factors, that caused VMWare to come to prominence was its operator experience and its simplicity. VMWare HA high availability was a one check box. VMWare distributed resource schedule which moved virtual machines around, one check box, right? And so with Docker's focus on developer usability and developer experience with today's announcements of Linux kit, that could actually be a huge, huge deal. If in the future, the application development pipeline greatly depends on building a just enough operating system as we used to say back in the day of VMWare with Jerry Chen. >> Stu: Yeah, good 'ol juice. >> Yeah, if that becomes the defining characteristic of building cloud native apps, and it is right? The Docker file is the defining document of our time. If that's the case, and now they've taken it into the Linux distribution world, which could have repercussions for the whole ecosystem, that could be Docker's, you know, again, their magic check box, the developer experience of rolling out a custom stack has just been the level has just been raised. And Linux kit is not new to the world. They just open sourced it today. But it's what they're using to get out their Docker for AWS and Docker for Google cloud. And Docker on public clouds already uses it so it's already in production today. I'm super impressed. >> And I think there was potential that it could have caused more confusion or upset in the ecosystem. But we interviewed Red Hat, and Canonical today and I'm not saying that jumped up and down and embraced and said oh goody, but it wasn't it was like okay, that's fine. It's not there, because there's always got to be that cooptive. I mean Jim, you came most recently from IBM. The company that I most associated with that word co-opetition. So, there's always, there's the swim lanes, there's where you partner together and there's where you sometimes bump heads as to strategy. >> Yeah. And I don't think people should be too alarmed, I mean from a technical level, right there's stuff that runs in containers, there's stuff that runs underneath containers. There's still a role for Ubuntu and there's still a role for Red Hat and there's still a role for CoreOS and Rancher. I don't know enough, I don't have enough of a crystal ball to say what we'll be talking about next year. It could actually have a fairly large dripple effect going out in our ecosystem. >> John, you've also, you've dug into with a couple of vendors here, what about the storage space? It's one we've been digging out of bed. There's still the general consensus is, we still have a little ways to go on the maturity and it's the furthest behind. Big surprise just like VMWare. We spent over a decade doing that. What's your take on storage? Any other comments on just the broad ecosystem, just what needs to work, be worked on and improved over time. >> I think storage is the next area that needs to be worked on. I think that's the next piece that we see as still a little bit fragmented. I've heard from many vendors here at the show that even from Docker itself, that the surprising thing is that containers are not just for cloud native apps. A lot of the enterprise journey, and I imagine we're going to hear about that in tomorrow's keynote, starts with containerizing your big legacy apps. >> Yeah, it's funny. I made a comment at the Google cloud event in San Francisco a month ago. I'm like, hey when did lift and shift all of a sudden become sexy? (laughs) It's of course nuanced on that, and we've had a few interviews Jim, where we've talked about look, there's initiatives that we want to do the cool app modernization and everything there but in the meantime, it is not a bimodal world. We're not going to leave our old stuff there and let it slowly have Larry the engineer keep an eye on it and sleep all the time. The whole world kind of needs to move forward, containers are part of the way to give us the bridge to the future if you will. >> Yeah, how do you containerize the legacy app the mainframe app for example, it's got a petabyte of data in its storage, I mean you just got to work through the data, I mean the deep data issues there, you know. >> Yeah, you can run Docker on a mainframe. I mean, I've done interviews on that. You work with those people, Jim. And it's one of those oh wait, okay, right. So there's pieces that'll be updated and people that are changed. John, you and I have talked. I remember early days of VMWare. It was let me take that horrible 10 year old application that's running on Windows NT which is going into life, and my hardware's going to die, let me shove it into VM and leave it there for another five, ten years. And it was like, please don't do that. >> Sometimes the real world intrudes. I think we are, part of this problem does get smoothed over or confused but we're talking about both on prem apps and public cloud apps. And that can get a little confusing because the storage issues, going back to storage, are a little different. Right? Especially in the public cloud, you've got issues of data locality, you've got issues of latency, even performance and so you see a number of vendors who are approaching it. It's very easy to connect the container to some sort of persistent volume. It is very hard to give something that its performance and is backed up and is, you know is going to be there. People have spent, the storage industry has spent decades on those problems. I don't think we're there yet in terms of the generic container that is floating either in public cloud or on prem. >> And they can handle the hybrid cloud, hybrid data clouds of which there are a myriad in terms of high public private zones within a distributed data architecture with varying degrees of velocity and variety. Managing all that data in a containerized environments with rich orchestration among them, to replication and streaming and so forth. >> You can do it, but it's not, it's cutting edge right now. >> Yeah, it's cutting edge. >> So, John last question I have to ask you is something near and dear to your heart. When you talk about careers and people that are doing, there's a lot of people here, people I used to see in the VMWare community that learning all the cool new stuff. Anything you see is Docker doing evangelism? Program the influencer program type thing? Are you seeing anything in the educational spaces from career space, what can you share? >> Sure, Docker is very rich in community it's kind of been the engine of their growth. They've long had a huge user group program, they have a campus program, they have a mentorship program, and they also have the Docker captains. The Docker captains started, oh I don't know, a year, a year and a half ago and is an advocacy program, I think there's 70 of them now, they work very closely with them. The come from all across the ecosystem which is kind of interesting. Everybody from Dehli MC and many companies. So that's pretty cool that these people, it feels a lot like early days of VMWare, these people have day jobs but yet they spend their nights and weekends hacking on Docker. And Docker takes advantage of that, I mean in the best sort of way. They give them opportunities, they give them platforms to speak, they give them platforms to help others. And I see that's in full force here. They have a track here at the show, so Dockers are leaning heavily on its community. I even saw one person here, Stu from from a mainline storage company said you know what, my company's not here but I am because I have to learn how to do this. I think people who are here have a good next phase of their career. >> That's a smart. A community advocacy program of that sort is actually is even more important than an event like this in terms of deepening the loyalty of the developers to leverage providers and their growing stacks. >> John: Docker the company is very small. There's a very large community and a very small company. >> Stu: Three hundred and some odd people. >> They have to leverage those resources. >> John: Exactly. >> Well, Jim thanks for all your help co-hosting today, John, really appreciate you coming in, especially some of that community ecosystem expertise that you bring. By the way, John's going to be co-hosting open stack summit with me. Another one that will have lost (mumbles) where that ecosystem community is and where it's going in a couple of weeks in my home state of Massachusetts in Boston. So be sure to tune in tomorrow, we've got a full day of coverage. First guest is going to be Solomon Hykes coming off the day two keynote. We're going to talk a little bit more about enterprise. We got a full lineup of guests. So be sure to check out siliconangle.tv for everything there. So for Jim Kobielus, John Troyer and myself Stu Miniman, thank you for watching day one of the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017. (upbeat music)