(cheery synth music) >> Hello, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here for a KubeCon CloudNativeCon preview for the North America show in Los Angeles, here in person and a virtual event. Two of the co-chairs are with me again this year, Constance Caramanolis, principal engineer at Splunk, and of course, Stephen Augustus, head of Open Source at Cisco. Great to see you guys. Hey, thanks for coming on, virtually, for the preview. >> Great to be had! >> Constance: Thank you for having us. >> Stephen: Great to see you again John. (laughing) >> Constance: Yeah. >> So I love... well, KubeCon has gotten, It's my favorite event every year. This is where the DevOps actually, where the people are reading the tea leaves, connecting the dots, but also meeting up and doing what communities do best, which is set the agenda for the next, next generation that's happening in person. Last year, it was virtual. We had the European virtual KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This year a mix. Give us a taste of updates that you want to share. Let's get, let's get into it. >> Sure. Uh, so I think, you know, um, I-I-I think uh, seeing this event in particular and uh, you know, one, we've got this, we've got this hopeful r-return to you know, some semblance of normalcy. I know that you know, over the last year and change, we've been uh, we've been kind of itching t-t-to see each other in person. And, and you know, and, and I-I think I say on a lot of uh, interviews that I, you know, one of my favorite parts of any conference is the, is the hallway track, right? It's really hard to, and, and we've- we've made, you know, we've made strides to replicate it, but there's- I don't think there's anything uh, you know, close t-to being in person, right? And, and getting to, to bounce i-ideas off of uh, your, your co-conspirators, (laughs) co-conspirators or compatriots. Um, so I'm- I'm really excited for that, um, I love the, I love the um, the mandates that we've put in place, uh, to make sure that people are uh, a little bit more safe. Um, and, you know, overall, like seeing uh- I-I think one of the things that gets me most excited is the, is the uh, the set of day zero events, right? Um, I-I think the, the increase in the uh, day zero events, we, we've got uh, Constance, what's the, what's the count at now? I'm, I'm looking over it and, and it's uh, it's, it's massive, right? You know, SupplyChainSecurityCon, Uh, the, you know, the Cloud Native for Eclipse Foundation, it's beyond, >> Too, hmm, too many to count right off the bat when I'm looking at it. >> Too many, too many to count! >> And it's also like, this is a reduced number because some people decide or some, not people, like projects, decide to do virtual uh, days or a non-conference outside of the normal KubeCon cycle because of... >> Yeah, well, let's get, let's get- >> that thing that should not be named. >> Let's get into some of the data. >> I want to jump into the trends. But just for the folks watching, this is a hybrid event, and- >> Yeah. >> There's going to be this day zero, which is the pre-programming. Which by the way, I think has evolved into a format that's just tremendous. You got the pregame, pre-event action. Very dynamic, very ad-hoc, ephemeral in the, in the, in the, in the, in the people getting together and making things happen. Then you got the structured event. It's uh, the 11th to the 12th on the pre-programming, day zero stuff, which you talked about, and then the 13th to the 15th, the main conference. It's in-person and virtual, so it's going to be a hybrid event, which should be dynamic because you have an in-person dynamic where it's a scarce resource of the face-to-face, working and trying to create synchronicity with the asynchronous environment on virtuals. So it should be an action packed and a must-watch event. So I'm personally excited, we'll be there in person. But I got to ask you guys, the co-chairs, how are you guys handling this? How are the papers coming, what's the call for talks? How are you structuring things? Can you just give a quick overview of what's, what's happening on the talks? >> Uh, talks, uh, I feel like it went really well this round. >> Um, really like, wide variety. I know it's pretty vague, but there's a wide variety of topics, uh, things that are getting I think, I feel like more popularity, like security is getting more popular. Uh, business value, one thing that I'm really passionate about, is getting a lot more traction. Uh, student track 101 is also, as always, I guess, as ever since it's been, since inception has been popular, um, it's definitely getting to the point where we're actually, well not to the point, but maybe it's just being more highlighted that a lot of the, like, like, some of the like great content from the day zeros are also showing up in KubeCon and then like, vice versa and they're kind of everywhere. Uh, Yeah, the talks I think was really- >> John: The sessions, the sessions are always driving it. Stephen I'm like from a, from a, from a maturisation standpoint, you have the, the, the people developing and then you got the f... the things are getting hardened. Can you talk about the trends around, what's kind of hardening out from a project basis on these sessions and what's forming relative to the trend line this year. >> Yeah. So, you know, so to Constance's point, I think that we're, we're starting to see some diversity in, or continued diversity and kind of the personas that are coming into the conference, right? So whether you're talking about that continuing 101 track or, the student track, which, you know, a lot of people have, have kind of jumped in and seeing that as an opportunity to, to, to not only start becoming part of the community, but also to immediately contribute to content. And then you've got that For me? It's, it's security, all day, right? I think, you know, I think that, you know, there's not a week, there's not a week that passes that I don't have a chat with someone around what's happening in security lately. And I think you'll see that highlighted in in all of the keynotes that we have planned there are, there's not one, not two, but three uh, keynotes around software supply chain security, and some of the different things that you have to consider as we're kind of walking into the space of you know, protecting, protecting your, your build pipeline, protecting your production artifacts, so that's something that really, you know, that goes to that, you know, that goes to my work on that, you know, in Kubernetes for SIG release, release engineering, that's, you know, something that we, we know that there are countless downstream consumers, right? So, some, you know, some that we may not have even had contact with yet from the upstream perspective, right? So it's, it's paramount for us to make sure that, you know, everything that we're pushing out to the community and to the wider world is safe to consume. So, so security is definitely top of mind for me. I would say for, you know, lots of things around you know, continue, continuing to talk about uh, GitOps observability. And I think, and I think that, you know, each of these, what's, you know, what's fun about um, each of these, uh, the, each of these topics, each of these areas is that they're all interconnected, right? So more and more you're seeing, you're seeing, oh, well, you know, the, you know, the Tekton folks are, you know, are talking to the Flux folks. And, and they're talking to the, the folks who are working on uh, Sigstore and Rekor and, and, and all of these fun tools about how to integrate into, you know, how to integrate into those respective areas. Um, so it's, it's, it's really a time of um, collaboration underscored by um, you know, protecting, protecting the community and the, and the end users. >> John: Yeah. We're seeing a lot of ah, um, you know, the security discussions. I mean, how far can you shift left before it becomes like standard, right? So like, you know, we're seeing that being built in. I got to ask you guys also on the trend of DevOps there's been a lot of conversations around Cloud Native, around obsolete management and in terms of ability, but data, the role of data has been different approaches on how people are leveraging machine learning and AI, can you, did that come up a lot in, in some of the, the discussions and the analysis? Because everyone's slapping machine learning on things these days, and there's a little bit of that going on, but it seems to be data and machine learning and horizontal scale, classic DevOps, things are happening. What's your reaction to, to some of those things that are happening? Can you guys, is there anything happening there? >> I feel like this year wasn't that big of a machine learning year in terms of submissions. >> Yes. >> I'm certain you agree with that, but it wasn't, as I think, like, security took a lot and, and, like, and this might also just be like, thinking about it holistically now, like security was, had such amazing submissions that it probably took a little bit of the spotlight off of when we were looking at the machine learning ones. Um... >> John: So security... >> Also I'm biased, so I think >> John: So security dominated more than, than everyone else did. >> Yeah. I think, you know, I think for this year, security is, security is dominating. I, you know, I think we even talked about this in the last uh, chat we had, um, the, you know, kind of from the AI side, I think you're, we're, we're running, there have been discussions around the, uh, you know, bias in, in AI models and um, you know, how we work through that, um, I'm not sure that we have any content for that this time around, but I think it, yeah, but I think, you know, as we start to talk about like how we collect data, you know, are, are we collecting the right types of data, how we serve it, especially as a, those relate to like collecting data at the edge, right? Like, how do we, how do we, how, how do we even deploy applications at the edge? We, we have a lot of potential solutions for that. But when you combine that with, well, how do we, how do we scrape information from the things that we're deploying from the edge, right? Or, or, or some, some of the things you'll see in the, in the program. >> Constance and Stephen, talk about the community vibe right now, because you know, that's the biggest part of this conference is seeing how the people come together, but it's also the vibe sets the tone. What's, what's the current vibe in the community that you're seeing and what do we expect this year at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon? >> Yeah, I'm going to say, I imagine the community's tired and it's been a long few, two years. It feels like 10 years, it feels like forever. And a lot of the in-person aspect that used to be like social validation, we just get like is lacking, so, but that being said, there's still been amazing, like collaboration from like the open, from like the Observability and Open Telemetry part. Like, I am seeing so many projects within the tag Observability collaborate together and making that a focus. And so even though we are tired, it's still, we're still doing good work. And we're still making a point of trying to keep that community tight even though it's much harder on Zoom and right, you know, it's going to try and do the awkward, like Zoom handshake. It just doesn't do the same thing there. But to Stephen's keynote, can't remember how long ago it is, about like resiliency. We are pretty resilient. And we're also, I think we're all learning to work at a slower pace because maybe we were working too fast beforehand. And I think that, I think that's a really good takeaway from all of this. So I think it's going to, for as safe as it can be to have some variation, it's probably going to just be like, it's going to be a big party because we're going to finally get to see each other after a long time then. >> John: Yeah. >> I hope we get to do that in a safe way. >> Stephen, you bring it in, Steve, you go. Oh, Steve, you always got the energy certainly on camera, but in person as well. >> (laughs) >> This in-person dynamic this year is huge. >> Yeah, we, >> Wh-what do you think is going to happen? What, give us your take. >> Yeah, so I mean, I, you know, I would echo Constance in saying that, you know, we're, we're, we're all tired, we're all very tired at this point. Um, but I, you know, but, they, they, the conference tagline for, for North America is, uh, is 'Resilience Realized', right? I think that, you know, throughout this, this year, um, the, the contributors, maintainers of, of all of these, you know, CNCF projects have made incredible strides uh, to empower the communities to, to, uh, to be together, to be family, to, to work better together, um, in spite of, you know, in spite of uh, location, location uh, boundaries, in spite of, you know, uh, uh, health concerns, like we've, we've really made the effort to um, to show up for each other. Um, so I think that, you know, what we'll see in the conference and, and, you know, one of my favorite tracks personally um, is the, the community track, um, so lots of, lots of content around, you know, a-around community building, around uh, I think more of the, the meta of, of maintaining communities, right? So the, you know, the, the, the, the code of conduct committee, as well as uh, steering committee uh, for Kubernetes got together um, last conference to, to talk about the values and principles of the community, right? And, and I think that, you know, that, that needs to continue to be highlighted, um, you know, some of the conversations that we've had around um, how you maintain groups, you know, how do you maintain groups, especially as um, especially as a, the, the, the size of the group grows, right? Once you escape that kind of like Dunbar's number uh, area, like it gets harder and harder to s have the s the same bandwidth conversations that you would in a smaller group, right? So making sure that we're continuing to, to have valuable conversations, but also be inclusive while we're doing that is, um, is something that will continue to be highlighted over the next year and change really. >> Well. I'm really impressed by what you guys do. And I know we're all tired getting, and we want to get back and, hats off to pulling it together and creating a great program because your, your group and your community is a social construct. It's, it's, we're all social animals. And this whole COVID virtual, now hybrid really is going to, going to show in real world as all playing out, and we're going to see how it evolves, and evolution is part of social communities. And I think that the progress has been made and, you know, and with the team and you guys putting together this great event. So my hat's off to you guys, thanks for, for doing that. Appreciate, great stuff. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Now, final question, um, what do you expect? Given, I mean, this is a social organization, um, things evolve, we're social organisms. We're going to be face to face. We're going to have virtual. We're going to have great talks, security obviously is prime time, Mainstream Enterprise Adoption in Kubernetes and Cloud Native. This is crunch time, so what do you guys expect for this event? Share your thoughts. >> Yeah, I-I think there's going to be lots of um, lots of fun, uh, I think uh more social conversations, less structured. Um, you know, i-if you have, if you haven't had the opportunity to kind of hang out on CNCF Slack, while one of these events are happening, we, we've spun up something of like a hallway track. Um, so, so people are hanging out, they're giving their takes during the um, you know, you know, in between uh talks, there, there was also a, you know, kind of after conference uh, hangout for, for the hallway track that we did. Um, so w we definitely want to continue some of that stuff. Um, as you know, between the last few conferences we've launched uh, Cloud Native TV um, and lots of great producers uh, and, and, and content over there. So you'll see, you'll see, kind of, us start to break the wall between um, that virtual content that we've created uh, across the last few months, as well as, you know, th s seeing that turn physical, right? Um, so how do we, you know, how, how do we, how do we manage that and h-how do we make that seamless for people who may be maybe participating virtually as opposed to physically, right. That there's going to be a bit of um, there, there's an aspect of like, you're, you're almost running two conferences, right. Simultaneously. So. >> It's a total experiment in the real world, but it's, it's all important. It's super important. Constance, your thoughts on, on the event, what people are expecting to see and surprises that might emerge, what do you, what's your thoughts? >> Um, I, well actually, see while you were saying something, I had an idea that I think we can make it more connected, So I just wrote it down, um, uh, I, I have some silly ideas when it comes to the conference stuff, which is why Stephen's laughing, although you can't see it. >> (both men laughing) >> Um, my, I, like, I'm, I'm trying to go in with no expectations, mostly because I'm so excited. I don't want to be disappointed um, and I don't want to miss out. I think, I actually think that probably a lot of the discussions are just going to be like, hi, like, it's so nice to actually meet you and just talk about random things. Maybe not as much technology discussions as maybe there would be at a normal, I like, ah, I don't want to say normal, right? Because we are in a new normal, like what KubeCon was several years ago. Um, I think that I do. I think that it would be probably a little painful, this hybrid part, since we don't know what to expect. I think there's going to be so many things that we're going to look back and be like, face palm and be like, oh, we should've thought about these things. So for anyone who's attending virtually, apologies in advance, and please give us feedback. There's so many things I know we're going to have to improve, we just, we don't know them yet. So please be patient with us and know that we wish that you could be there in person with us too. >> Um, uh, I don't know. >> Well, that's the thing, that's the thing. >> I'm just going to go in there with an open mind. Well that's the thing, it's, it's new, it's all new, virtual. So it's, it's, we're learning together. That's, I think, people put too much pressure. I think people like expecting, you know, some magic to happen, but it's all evolving. And I think the magic is the event. And I think, I think it's going to work out great. And by the way, there's no downside it's, you know, learn. >> Exactly! >> So, yeah. So, you know, so one of the things that I um, I, I have this spiel that I give to um, the release team, the Kubernetes release team, every time we start a new cycle, right? Um, you've got a set of returning contributors. You've got a set of uh, net new contributors, right? And um, and, and moving into the release team, you're kind of like thrown right into the fire of Kubernetes, right? So it's, it's, it's one of those things. I, I, I come in and, and, and, essentially say, um, be curious, question everything. Um, this is like, it's a, it's, it's very much like a human experience, right? And I think that, you know uh, to, to Constance's point, we're all here to, to learn and grow, make this a better experience for everyone. Um, so bring yourself, like bring yourself to the conference, right? I think it's, you know, in, in terms of offering feedback, we have, you know, feedback forms for every one of the, you know, every one of the, the talks that you attend, um, you can feel free to reach out to Constance, and myself and, and Jasmine, um, if you have feedback that you want to give personally, you know, there, there are, there are ways to get in touch with us. There are ways to make the event better. And I think that every time we, we uh, we incorporate, like, we incorporate a lot of this feedback into the next conference. So every time um, you provide some piece of information for us, that gives us an opportunity to make it better, right? So this conference is built, uh, this conference is built by the community, right? The, you know, it's not just a, you know, it's not a, you know, it's not a body just uh making, making decisions kind of off the cuff, it's, we are taking your ideas and we're trying to turn them into a program, right? So it's, it's the maintainers, it's the end users. It's the students, it's people who have never used Kubernetes in their lives, or never used Cloud Native technology in their lives. It's folks who are coming from the, you know, the, the corporate IT kind of classic uh, background, and, and just trying to understand how to be effective in this, in this new world for them. Um so it's like, it takes all kinds and we, we don't get it done without your feedback. So please, um, as you're coming to the conference, whether it's in-person or virtually, like, bring yourselves, be curious, ask questions, um, provide that feedback. And then um, and I think, you know, from the, you know, th-the kind of from the uh, the, yes, we need to be human, but we also need to um recognize some of the, the requirements, uh, that, that are, that we have going into this conference. So reminder that, you know, all of, all of the events are under, you know, under a code of conduct, please make sure to familiarize yourself with uh, code of conduct. I think that um, you know, I-I think that coming back into a physical space for a lot of people, the um, the, some of the social skills can, can erode over time. So please not just bring yourself, bring your best self. And, you know, be sure to review all of the policies around health and, and safety as we go into this. >> Constance, Stephen, that's great stuff. Love talking with you guys. Constance, you want to add something? Go ahead. >> I want to add one thing, also be gentle with yourself and like, be really kind to yourself and others, because this is going to be really overwhelming. I haven't been around more than 10 people at once in almost two years. And so, just remember to be kind as well, always be curious and question everything. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. Great reminder. This is what it's all about, face-to-face. Face-to-face, presence, being together, but also having the openness and the community around you. A lot of mentoring, you guys have a great community for people coming in that are new and there's great mentors, people are open and cool, great community. Thanks for coming on for this special preview for KubeCon CloudNativeCon, thank you so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of Kubecon CloudNative, and we've been every year of KubeCon. It's been in fantastic growth. Going the next level again in person, a lot of security, real time adoption should be uh, should be great, virtual and in-person. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (cheery synth music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>>live from Orlando, Florida It's the cue covering Microsoft Ignite Brought to you by Cho He City >>Welcome back, everyone. And welcome to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft Ignite Here in Orlando, I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host Stew Minimum. We're joined by Nicholas Djerassi. Moto's He is a cloud computing evangelist at Red Hat. Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's a pleasure. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about what you do at Red Hat. >>So I work with a lot of red, have partners really trying to foster the ecosystem and build red have products and solutions that can actually be deployable, repeatable for different customers. So different verticals. Financial health care doesn't really matter. For the most part, I try and just focus on cloud computing and really just evangelizing a lot of our technologies that we have. >>Okay, so So what are the kinds of things you're doing here at ignite? >>So I've been spending a lot of time actually working with some of the partners, like a center IBM. We've been doing a bunch of different webinars a little bit of hands on workshops that kind of educating people about distributed computing edge computing on dhe some of the technologies that we've been working along with Microsoft. So, uh, co engineering of sequel server The man is service offering that we're doing with open shift, which is our enterprise great kubernetes platform along many other >>different things. So So, Nicholas, you know, it's been a couple of years now that we've gotten over some of the gas. Wait. Microsoft has not said that, you know, we're killing the penguins, you know, off on the side. I was in Boston for Red Hat Summit. Tatiana Della's up on stage there, you know, Red hat. You know he's not hiding at the show. So bring us inside. You know where customers deployments are happening where engineering efforts are working together. You know, we know we've been hearing for years red hats in all of the clouds and partnering all of the merit. So what? What, you know, different or special, about the Microsoft relationship? >>I mean, honestly, I think the relationship is just evolving and growing because our customers were asking for it right there, going towards hybrid and multi cloud type of strategies. They want to be able to take advantage of, you know, running rail within their own data. Centers were running rails specifically on top of Microsoft Azure, but they're also looking at other club service providers. I think it's gonna be mandated eventually at some point in time where customers are gonna start looking at diversification when it comes to running applications, wherever it makes sense, taking advantage of different you know, cloud end of service is different providers. So we've been getting a lot of time like understanding what their needs are and then trying to build the engineering to actually address those needs. I think a lot of that has really come from the co engineering that we have going on. So we have a red head engineer sitting alongside bikers, off engineers, spending a lot of time building things like the Windows distraction layer wsl things along those lines, All >>right, so I'll be a Q Khan in a couple of weeks and kubernetes still, a lot of people don't really understand where it fits Way have been saying in a Cuban eight is gonna be baked into every platform. Red hat, of course, is not really a major contributor but has a lot of customers on open shift. We had Microsoft, you know, this week, talking about as your arc is in preview. But you know, they're they're the David Taunton who does partnership, Engagement says. You know, this does not mean that we will not continue to partner with open shift in the best place to run open shift is on azure. It's the most secure. It's the best. So help us understand his toe. You know where this fits In the overall discussion of that multi hybrid cloud that we were talking about earlier. I >>think everybody wants kind of a single pane of glass for manageability. They want ability to actually look and see where their infrastructure is being deployed. One of the pitfalls of moving to the cloud is the fact that it's so easy to spend a resource is that a lot of times we lose track of where these resource is. Our or individuals leave companies, and when they leave, cos they leave behind a lot of leftover items and instances, and that becomes really costly over a period of time. Maybe not so bad if you have, you know, 100 or 500 instances. But when you talk to some of these enterprise customers that are running 110,000 instances and spending millions of dollars a month, it could get very costly. And not only that, but it could also be a security risk is well, >>so let's talk about security. What kinds of conversations are you having with regard to security and data protection at this conference? >>So you know, one of the biggest things that we've had a lot of customers asking about his redhead insights so ready in sizes away it's a smart management application that actually ties into looking at either workloads or configuration management. It could actually tell you if you have a drift. So, for example, let's say you install sequel server on well, and you miss configure it. You leave the admin account running on it, it can actually alert you and make recommendations for remediation. Or maybe in general, you're using you know, S E. Lennox is disabled. The things along those lines so insights can actually look into, uh, the operating system or the applications and tell you if there's miss configurations all right, >>a lot of discussion about developers here, You know, day to keynote was all about, you know, AP Dev And, like Sathya have been a lot of time talking about the citizen developer. Seems like that would be an intersection between what red hats doing in and Microsoft. >>Um, so I would say, you know, we're obviously very developer first focused right when we built things like Open Shift Way kind of. We're thinking about developers. Before you were thinking about operations, and later on, we actually had to build more of the operations aspects into it. Now, like, for example, in open shift, there's two different portals. There's one for the developer Focus and one for the I T admin focus with operations groups because they want to see what's going on. Developers don't really care specifically about seeing the distraction of where things are. They just want to deploy their code, get it out the door as quickly as they can, and they're really just not too concerned about the infrastructure component pieces. But all of these developers, they want to be ableto right there, applications right there code and deploy it essentially anywhere and everywhere and having the easiest process and We're really just trying to make that as simple as possible, like visual studio plug ins that we have for open shift, you know, Eclipse G and other things. So really, I mean, Red has always been very developer focused first, >>so does that seeing Microsoft Satya Nadella up on the stage talking about this developer first attitude that Microsoft is really embracing the developer. And, as you said at development for all that does seem like a bit of a cultural shift for Microsoft much more aligned with the red hat way and sort of open source. So are you talking about that within without your cut with your colleagues? That red hat, about the change that you've seen the evolution of Microsoft? >>Absolutely. I mean, if you look at, like Microsoft, the contributions that they're putting towards, like kubernetes or even contribution towards open shift, it's It's amazing, right? I mean, it's like the company's gonna complete 1 80 from the way that they used to be. There's so much more open the acquisition of Like Get Hub, for example, all these different changes, it's it's amazing. He's done amazing things with the company. I can't say enough positive things about all the wonderful things that he's done. So >>all right, so Nicholas Red Hat has an interesting position in the marketplace because you do partner with all of the clouds on the environment. While IBM is now the parent owner of Red Hat and they have a cloud, your customers touch all of them. I'm not gonna ask you to competitively analyze them. But when you're talking to customers that are choosing Azure, is there anything that calling out as to why they're choosing Microsoft where you know they have, you know, a advantage of the marketplace or what is drawing customers to them on then? Of course, redhead. With that, >>I think Microsoft is more advanced when it comes to artificial intelligence and machine learning. A, I and ML and computing. I think they're light years ahead of everyone else at this point in time. I think you know, Amazon and Google are kind of playing a little bit of catch up there, Um, and it's showing right. If you look at the power platform, for example, customers are embracing that. It's just it's fantastic looking at a lot of the changes that they've implemented and I think it's very complimentary toe the way that people are starting to build their applications. Moving towards distributed infrastructures, Micro Service's and then obviously cloud native service is as well >>in terms of the future will be. We are really just scratching the surface when it comes to to the cloud. What do you see 5 10 years from now in terms of growth rates and also in terms of the ways in which companies are using the cloud. >>So I kind of like Thio equate it towards, like, the progression that we've had with cars. I know it sounds so simple, but, you know, we went from steam engine to regular piston engines, and now we've gotten to a point where we have electric cars and there's gonna be self driving cars. I think we're gonna get to a point where code is gonna be autonomous in a sense, right self correcting ability to actually just write code and deploy it. Not really having to worry about that entire infrastructure layer. Everybody's calling it server lists. There's always gonna be a server per se, but I think we're gonna have a point where next 5 to 10 years that all of that is gonna be completely abstracted away. It's just gonna be focused on writing the code and machine learning is gonna help us actually evolve that code and make it run faster and make it run better. We're already seeing huge benefits. And when it comes to machine learning and the big data analytics and things on those lines, it's just natural progression. All right, >>love, you know what's top of mine from the customers that you're talking to Earth event. Any new learning is that you've had or, you know, things that have kind of caught your attention. >>I think the biggest thing, honestly, is really been them. The multi cloud Polly Cloud methodology that everybody seems to be embracing. It seems like every customer I'm talking to is looking at trying to avoid that vendor lock and per se, but still have that flexibility to deploy their applications wherever and still utilize cloud Native Service's without actually specifically having to, you know, go completely open source >>and one of the challenges there is every cloud. I need different skills to be able to do them. If I'm deploying it, it's the people and being able to do that. You know, we all lived through that era of trying to do multi vendor, and often it was challenges. So have we learned from what we've done in the past? Can multi cloud actually be more valuable to a company than the sum of its parts? >>I think so. And I think that's the reason why I, like Microsoft, is investing in art. For example, I think those methodologies way No multi clouds, tough. It's never gonna be easy. And so these companies need to start building in developing platforms for it. There needs to be be great if there were standard AP ice and such right, but they're never gonna do something along those lines. But I think the investments that they're putting forth now are gonna make Multiplied and Polly Cloud a lot easier in the future. And I think customers are asking for it. Customers ask for it, they're gonna build it. >>What does this mean for the workforce, though? In in terms of the kinds of candidates that cos they're going to hire because, as we said, it does require different skills and and different capabilities. So how what's your advice to the young computer scientists coming up in terms of what they should be learning. And then also, how do you think companies are making sensible of this? >>So I know from a company respectable. It's challenging a lot of companies. Especially, for example, I was talking to a very large financial institution, and they were saying that their biggest issue right now is hiring talented people to deal with Micro Service's kubernetes. Any time to hire someone, they end up getting poached by the big cloud companies. So you know, it's one of those things where people are gonna have to start diversifying their talents and look at the future. So I mean, obviously, Micro Service's are here. They're gonna continue to be here. I would say people should invest in that. But also look a server Lis, you know, I definitely think serverless these days towards the future. And then when it comes to like learning skills of multi club, I think cloud competing, that's just the number one growing in general. >>So since you didn't bring up server Lis, you know, today I hear serverless and most customers that I talked to that means a W s number two in the space probably is Microsoft, but there's efforts in to try to help, you know, give a little bit of open source and standardization there. Where's Red Hat? Stand on this. What do you see? What from Microsoft? What are you hearing from customers? >>Were heavily contribute all the different, you know, projects, trying to make server lists like easier to use and not so much specific vendors, Right? So whether that's, you know, Apache, spar or whatever you want to consider it to be, were trying to invest. Invest in those different types of technologies. I think the main issue we serve earless right now is we still don't really know how to utilize it effectively. And it's still kind of this gray area in a sense, right? It's cutting edge, bleeding edge emerging technologies. And it's just, in my opinion, it's not perfectly ready for prime time. But I think that's specifically because there's just not enough people that are actually invested in it. This point in time. So >>So what are you gonna take back with you when you head back to Phoenix from from this conference? What are the things that have sparked your interest the most. >>Gosh, I live, I would probably have to say, Really digging in deep on the Ark announcement. I think that's the thing that I'm most interested in, understanding how how we can actually contribute to that and maybe make that plug double for things like open Shift. You know, whether it's open shift on premise, open shit, running in the cloud on another, Well, architecture's, you know, things like insights. Being able to plug into that, I really see us trying to work with Microsoft to start building those things. >>Well, Nicholas, thank you so much for coming on. The cubit was really fabulous conversation. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight for Sue minimum. Stay tuned for more of the cubes. Live coverage from Microsoft ignite.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen brought to you by bread. >> Welcome back to the Cube and our continuing coverage here. The Red had summit. This is six time around for us. Fifth time for stew minimum. So he still gets almost the perfect attendance. Goldmark. First time for me. So still have a lot of catching up to do. Stewed minimum. John Walls and Steve Spiker now joins us. He is the senior principal product manager. Developer tools, Red Hat and Steve. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Let's just talk about first off development in general. I mean, there's a lot of give and take there, right? You're tryingto listen. What air? The needs. Where the deficiencies, Where can the improvements be made? But how much do you drive that on your side and how much do listen and respond to do what? You're here for. The community. >> Yeah, we do a little bit of both. And so a lot of it is responding to the community, and that's one of the areas that Red has really excelled. Is taking what's popular, what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable pot product or stable solution that developers can use. But we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present. So we start from, like, various run times to actually contain our platforms. And so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help Dr Phil that because we hear it from customers a lot, it's like things you're doing are great. But like there's all these projects that need to come together sort of a product or unified experience. And so we spent a lot of our time China bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different task and also focus across like not just a job run times which we have a lot of job. >> So you might have it. You might have an in product in mind, right? And you realize that there might be a gap in terms of development, so you encourage or you try to bridged that gap a little bit. To get to that in product is that you're saying Yeah, >> so we do a lot of things to help build the pieces so that people can sometimes build their own experiences. They want. In the end, developers control kind of their own destiny, their own set of tools and a lot of customers have their own unique requirements, even like some tools they develop in house for loans, kind of regulatory reasons and other things. And so we have two, one build the pieces but also stitched the pieces together to help them have that kind of out of the box experience. Because some some customers really don't want to do that. They just want to say one kind of a turnkey solution. But then we may need to make some adjustments here and there. >> Yeah, but by Steve, you know, it's it's funny. It rhymes for me with what I saw, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago with Lennox. A lot of changes, a lot of pieces. I want to take advantage of it. But you know, a boy can somebody help me with this and you know that that's of course. Red hat rode that way pretty well right Today, cupidity is even more sprawling. There's so many different projects. There's so many pieces boy. It is complicated on DH. Therefore, how do we take advantage of that? What do I need to know? What can my platform a vendor do for me so that I don't have to manage that? Yeah, I love you. Spanned on that gives us a little bit of comparing trash. You know what's the same? What's different? Yeah, and so >> there's different aspects. I think the developer experience one thing that we talked about. It's like it just works sometimes. So, like it's if it's Cooper days. We've spent a lot time making sure it's hardened and works well. So you're not like debugging it, spending time on things that waist development time. Instead, That way, folks let on that. We also look at how we can build abstraction layers on top of that. So we built a Seelye tool called Rodeo, which is a developed, streamlined developer experience for open shift, and it's really focused on open ship. That way, that developer really just can focus on their application. They could deploy it, taken quickly, work on the changes before they commit to get, and then they can then also have a similar experience in the browser with things like Eclipse Jr Code or Dick workspaces are I got commercial offering behind that and that takes actually using the platform itself to do development, which is really, really super cool so that you can have an idea and the browser. You can also have the workspace like you're all your dependencies, like everything you would normally have on your laptop now don't need to worry about. It's now containerized and quickly spun up as a way to do development. And it's really a thing that enterprises really enjoy because they get like, quick satisfaction, like they get the stuff off the proprietary code off the death up there using their container platform, and it's building the same way they would build when they >> deployed my backgrounds on the infrastructure side. And the whole reason we have infrastructure to be able to run our abs and the Holy Grail we've wanted is you know, not not my developers. I shouldn't need to think about the stuff underneath, right? We looked at virtual ization. We look a container ization. You know, the nirvana of server lists, as they call it, is that I shouldn't have to think about that you know how we doing? Because at the end of the day, and I talked to users like Oh, jeez, well, I need to worry. What if something breaks? I need to understand the security for my environment. You know what you're seeing and talking to customers about it from there. Stop development. Yes, so they're able >> tto. It's like here's different stories, like Tool, Factor act. So it's like if you stay in certain parameters, you can have a lot of success, and that's still kind of true today. Survivalist kind of takes that to the next level, where you can really just have a predefined either a function spectacle o two and then things are really easy, and you don't have to worry about various aspects. But even though you look at the various vendors when you're working with different functions, it's even complex like, Oh, I need to provide the security on you. Make sure he sees a wire together. How do I log these things? How do I debugged when things across this mesh go wrong? And so it's like it's getting getting better. But there's still a lot of work to do to continue to improve that, and you will see a lot of innovation happening in that area, especially the work that we're working on. >> What kind of given take do you have in terms of what? Not only what is that community learning from you and the tools that you're providing them? But what are you getting back from that other than, you know, advancing a project or whatever, in terms of expertise, in terms of understanding, maybe a new wayto to build a different mouse trap. You know that someone comes up with an interesting idea. You're like, >> Wow, I >> didn't take that. Yeah, I think that's >> where, like the partnerships we've had with various companies before you go off starting out with Cooper Netease Anything in the Cave Native project last year. And that really took a different way of looking at serve elicit, moving it forward to say, Yeah, this is this is a different way. We thought about how we would do this on Cooper nowadays, even kind of like you abstract that ap I away. And it's like it's just to keep native of survivalists and then Karina use this kind of implementation detail behind that even and So that's really interesting to see things like that. And then also the recent work announcements with Microsoft and the azure functions where people like they maybe, you know, into the event sources there they would make sure that were close. That they're doing the functions are building, are running on Cooper Netease and our communities is is open shift. So it's really kind of completing the life cycle. >> So what if we could just step act, you know, if you talk about communities and open ships specifically, you've got you know, you've got partnership with Google and they've got the geeky and Antos stuff. You've got partnership for the Amazon, you know, they've got a ks, these things, they're not fully seamless and interoperable. It's, you know, I usually hear some confusion in the marketplace as to, you know, communities can run lots of places, but all the various you know, if you choose an implementation well, that your implementation and you should run that everywhere. Not I can't take all the various implementations and they're not inter swappable. So maybe you could help expand on that A little bit is toe, you know what's the goal? Where are we with this maturity here and you know, where do we need it to get? Because, you know, boy, it definitely is a little bit complicated. Least, you know, from the seat that I sit in Yeah. So it's >> somewhat complex, I think, goes back to your early days talking about letting she's like you would say you have an application that could run anywhere. They have Lenox this kind of truth. You know, there's always like certain security settings or packages you have enabled. That just holds true for elected Kuban aged world as well. You can lock it down a certain way. You could open it up a certain way. And so you see a lot of content that's delivered, assuming certain like privileges I have on the system and other systems that don't allow it. And so I think, more and more we see through the standardization something we could study in conformance testing. It really helps people like No, we want our getting in their hands. On an instance. It's really, you know, a full fledged communities or the part that they care about the most is working out well. And so I see that gave me the evil by also see tools that kind of abstract, even more so like a native, is a mentioned sort of survivalist workloads or functions themselves and then even house tool in kind of works. On top of that, like Natively understands the platform, that platform and those requirements to move those applications across the different systems because we have a lot of customers who run open ship communities as well as like many other good bearnaise kind of instances that so they have. We have this requirement to make sure we stay conforming, allow them to make sure the were closer portable, and it's an important part to move forward. So I still think there's a lot of work to be done toe to make these things a smoother processes. It's a lot of interesting things going on, though, >> So any interesting tens with workloads that's one of things we always look at is, you know, um, I just taking the old workloads. Am I doing them in a new place Or, you know, are there new new workloads and anything jumping out at you from customers that you talk to? >> Yes. So the way talk I know I mentioned several See multiple times a whole idea around this auto scaling. And Lou only losing your uplink your resources when you need to is a big deal. So we see a lot more and more of those kind of small function, single purpose things that are occurring up until, like, machine learning. Big data. It just continues. A GPU resource is we talked about running a V EMS and cos when I first heard this, like four years ago, I laughed out loud, and I really don't know. Their seriousness is something that happens. And, yeah, it's becoming mainstream now. So now kind of everything kind of fits within the current. You know, orchestrator of those workloads. >> You're not laughing anymore, right? No. No, because there's someone areas in which your concerns are certainly understandable securities. One of those a lot of attention being paid automation these days, right? And a lot of opportunity there. Is there one, or are there a couple areas where you say this is kind of where we have maybe greener pastures in terms of providing developers with really unusual tools are really more sophisticated, more complex or effective tools than than in any other area where you could use that kind of a boost. >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of things, but one thing that I see in this area is still a lot of fragmentation, like I'm not sure if I see you like this kind of a single way that things work, seeing a lot of great work, like with the Microsoft GS code tooling pieces. And I'm just saying that from an abstraction way to bring certain things together. Nice work going with Microsoft, the committee's plugging for there, and we were collaborating with them on that to extend it for some of the open shift use cases. But that just kind of moves, I think Mohr to beat the developers where they're at and will continue to invest across the different set of tools like I do, the more you keep up with these list of all these tools in the ecosystem. Everytime I present it, someone says, I don't know about those, but here's Maura that I didn't know about it, so this is just continues to grow and people continue to innovate, and I think it just think it's exciting because we continue Teo to evolve it. So I know think there's much in the way of kind of narrowing down on a smaller set of things. I think it's going to continue to expand in the sense. >> Speaking of expansion at Microsoft build yesterday, there was announcement of beloved Taquito K d a. A ce your functions with open shift. Help us parts a little bit. What, what that is. >> Yeah. So what that's about is really taking Thea's your functions and allowing those workloads to Warren on open ship because they're targeted towards Cuba. Netease and, of course, open ship those grenades distribution. So it allows that to happen. There's also that it's a unique auto scaler that kind of allows workload to be more surveillance run. So then also it's it ties into some of the azure event sorts of soul like thee. The message Cuba and bus Kafka that's there. And so now you can wire in yours your pieces, you can run it across here. Either hosted is your or on open shift with those of your function. >> Okay, just to clarify this is today separate from the K Native Initiative that you were talking about earlier. >> Yes, that's right. So this is touching on some of those points and the idea behind this project. This liken early preview announcer was like showing some progress, but they're looking in wiring in some of the chips. Start the kidney of serving pieces to allow running in those applications on open ship, but also the need of events sources. So you can take combination events and triggers your functions and do some of these exciting things. >> Can I ask you, you're doing sessions here at this show? You know how many of the people here you know, talking about survivalists and looking at that bleeding edge or there? There are other technologies that you find them spending a little bit more time in the tooling. It's >> a wide range. I'm really shocked by what some of the customers are like. Bleeding edge Kate made. It was like, Oh, you know, we saw whatever zero dot three release out there with this, and we'd really like this auto scaling capability because we're spending a lot of money running these applications that are not doing anything, So we like the better auto scaler that's out there. The others are really just like trying to understand more about container technology. I was just talking to Jen one early after a session. He's like, This is what we're trying to do. We need to contain your eyes applications. How do I build a CIA pipeline around it? So it's a It's a wide range of things you see here. Well, >> you certainly at the center of this inspiration, the innovation of the industry. I know you're an exciting place, and it's kind of something new every day for you. Probably right. >> Oh, it is. Yeah. Especially when these big conference and announcements come >> out. Gear up, right? Yeah, Exactly. Good job, Steve. Thank you for joining us here. We appreciate the time and wish you well down the road. >> Take me much. Enjoyed being on >> you, Steve Spiker from Red Hat. Joining this here for the first time on the Q. Good to have you, Steve. Good Have you with us as we continue our coverage from Boston. But the Red Hat Summit

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, Chief Research Officer for Wikibon Cube and welcome to another special digital community event. Today we are going to be presenting Wikibon's 2019 trends. Now, I'm here in our Palo Alto Studios in kind of a low tech mode. Precisely, because all our our crews are out at all the big shows bringing you the best of what's going on in the industry, and broadcasting it over The Cube. But that is okay because I've asked each of our Wikibon analysts to use a similar approach to present their insights into what would be the most impactful trends for 2019. Now the way we are going to do this is first we are going to use this video as base of getting our insights out, and then at the end we are going to utilize a crowd chat to give you an opportunity to present your insights back to the community. So, at the end of this video, please stay with us, and share your insights, share your thoughts, your experience, ask your questions about what you think will be the most impactful trends of 2019 and beyond. >> A number of years ago Wikibon predicted that cloud, while dominating computing, would not feature all data moving to the cloud but rather, the cloud experience and cloud services moving to the data. We call that true private cloud computing, and there has, nothing has occurred in the last couple of years that has suggested that we were, anyway, wrong about this prediction. In fact, if we take a look at what's going on with Edge, our expectations that increasingly Edge computing and on Premise technology, or needs, would further accelerate the rate at which cloud experiences end up on Premise, end up at the Edge, and that would be the dominant model for how we think about computing over the course of the next few years. That leads to greater distribution of data. That leads to greater distribution of places where data actually will be used. All under the aegis of cloud computing but not utilizing the centralized public cloud model that so many predicted. >> A prediction we'd like to talk about is how multi-cloud and orchestration of those environments fit together. At Wikibon, we've been looking for many years at how digital businesses are going to leverage cloud, and cloud is not a singular entity, and therefore the outcomes that you are looking for, often require that you use more than one cloud, specially if you are looking at public clouds. We've been seeing the ascendance of Kubernetes as a fundamental foundational piece of enabling this multi-cloud environment. Kubernetes is not the sole thing, and of course, you don't want to overemphasize any specific tool, but you are seeing, driven by the CNC AFT in a broad ecosystem, that Kubernetes is getting into all the platforms, both public and private cloud, and that we predict that by 2020, 90% of multi-cloud enterprise applications will use Kubernetes to lead for the enablement of their multicloud strategies. >> One of the biggest challenges that the industry is going to face over the next few years is how to deal with multi-cloud. We predict, ultimately, that a sizable percentage of the marketplace, as much as 90%, will be taking a multi--cloud approach first to how they conceive, build, and operate their high, strategic value applications that are engaging customers, engaging partners, and driving their businesses forward. However, that creates a pressing need for three new classes of Technology. Technology that provides multi-cloud inter-networking; Technology that provides orchestration services across clouds, and finally Technologies that ensure data protection across multi-cloud. While each of these domains by themselves is relatively small today, we think that over the next decade they will, each, grow into market that are tens of billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars in size. >> The picture I'd like to talk about a very few, the Robotic Process Automation, RPA. So we've observed that there's a widening gap between how many jobs are available world wide and the number of qualified candidates to fill those jobs. RPA, we believe, is going to become a fundamental approach to closing that gap, and really operationalizing artificial intelligence. Executives that we talk to in The Cube; They realize they just can't keep throwing bodies at the problem, so this so called "software robots" are going to become increasingly easy to use. And we think that low code or no code approaches to automation and automating work flows are going to drive the RPA market from its current position, which is around a billion dollars to more than ten X, or ten billion dollars plus by 2023. I predict that in 2019 what we are going to see is more containerization of AI machine learning for deployment to the Edge, throughout the multi-cloud. It's a trend that's been going on for some time. In particular, what we are going to be seeing is a increasing focus on technologies, or projects in code base such as Cube flow, which has been established in this year just gone by to support that approach for containerization of AI out to the edges. In 2019, we are going to see the big guys, like Google, and AWS, and Microsoft, and others in the whole AI space begin to march around the need for a common delatched framework suck such as Cube Flow, because really that is where many of their customers are going. The data scientists and App developers who are building these applications; They want to manage these over Kubernetes using these CNC stacks of tooling and projects to enable a degree of supportability and maintain ability and scalability around containerized intelligent applications. >> My prediction is around the move from linear programming and data models to matrix computing. This is a move that's happening very quicly, indeed, as new types of workload come on. And these workloads include AI, VR, AR, Video Gaming, very much at the edge of things. And ARM is the key provider of these types of computing chips and computing models that are enabling this type of programming to happen. So my prediction is that this type of programming is gonna start very quickly in 2019. It's going to rule very rapidly about two years from now, in 2021, into the enterprise market space, but that the preparation for this type of computing and the movement of work right to the edge, very, very close to the senses, very, very close to where the users are themselves is going to accelerate over the next decade. >> The prediction I'd like to make in 2019 is that the CNCF, as the steward of the growing cloud native stack, they'll expand the range of projects to include the frontier topics, really the frontier paradigms, in micro sources in cloud computing; I'm talking about Serverlus. My prediction is that virtual Kubelets will become an incubating project at CNCF to address the need to provide Serverlus event driven interfaces to containerize orchestrated micro sources. I'd also like to predict that VM and container coexistence will proceed apace in terms of a project such as, specially Kubevirt. I think will become also a CNCF project. And I think it will be adopted fairly widely. And one last prediction, in that vein, is that the recent working group that CNCF has established with Eclipse, around IOT, the internet of things. I think that will come to fruition. There is an Eclipse project called Ditto that uses IOT, and AI, and digital twins, a very interesting way for industrial and other applications. I think that will come under the auspices of CNC in the coming year. >> Security remains vexing to the cloud industry, and the IT industry overall. Historically, it's been about restricting access, largely at the perimeter, and once you provide through the perimeter user would have access to an entire organization's resources, digital resources, whether they be files, or applications, or identities. We think that has to change, largely as a consequence of businesses now being restructured, reorganized, and re-institutionalizing work around data. That what's gonna have to happen is a notion of zero trust security is going to be put in place that is fundamentally tied to the notion of sharing data. So, instead of restriction access at the perimeter, you have to restrict access at the level of data. That is going to have an enormous set of implication overall, for how the computing industry works. But two key technologies are essential to making zero trust security work. One is software to find infrastructure, so that you can make changes to the configuration of your security policies and instances by other software and to, very importantly, high quality analytics that are bringing the network and security functions more closely together and through the shared data are increasing the use of AI, the use of machine learning, etc and ensuring higher quality security models across multiple clouds. It's always great to hear from the Wikibon analysts about what is happening in the industry and what is likely to happen in the industry. But now, let's hear from you, so let's jump into the cloud chat as an opportunity for you to present your ideas, your insights, ask your questions, share your experience. What will be the most important trends and issues in 2019 and beyond, as far as you are concerned. Thank you very much for listening. Now let's cloud chat.

>> From the palace of fine arts in San Francisco it's the Cube. Covering AT&T Spark, now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco at the AT&T Spark event and it's all about 5G. 5G is this huge revolution and I haven't got a definitive number but it's something on the order of hundred X, improvement of speed and data throughput. There's a lot of excitement but one of the things that is less talked about here but it was actually up on the keynote was really the roll of opensource and AT&T talked a lot about opensource and how important it is and really redefining the company around the speed of software development versus the speed of hardware development and that's a big piece of it. We're excited to have somebody who knows all about opensource our next guest he's Jeff McCaffer. He's the Director of Opensource Progress Officer at Microsoft, did I get that right Jeff? >> No, well it said Opensource Programs Officer. >> Programs Officer. >> Yep. >> So you do all about opensource. >> Yeah. >> Well first off, welcome. >> Thank you very much Jeff, it's good to be here. >> So Microsoft, you know, no one would have ever thought, I mean, you know, I'm probably dating myself. 15 years ago with that Microsoft would be a big component of opensource but in fact they're a huge proponent of opensource. >> Absolutely, even just not so long ago you know, it was not the foremost in everybody's mind that Microsoft would be doing opensource. But now it's a core part of our company. It's a core part of how we work and our engagement with the rest of the industries. So it's really growing and it's continuing to grow. >> So how did it kind of get there and what are some of the real key components that you have to worry about in your role to managing, you know, participating in all these various communities all over the place. >> Yeah, well I mean it's been a long road but it's really the way software's happening today, you mention in the intro about the dispute of software versus hardware and software's just going so fast and you know, you can aspire to be world class but when everybody else starts there with opensource, you know it's really hard to start from zero get to there. So we're really happy to be you know, using opensource and contributing. One of the real challenges we've had going forward is the scale like simply we've got literally millions of uses of opensource across all of our products and services. And managing that, keeping track of it, engaging with those, all those communities and everything is a real big challenge. So we've been building paulo season tools and changing the culture to understand that you know, you need to engage, push fixes back, all those sorts of things. And then when we look at our releasing our software, we have thousands of opensource repositories on GitHub, thousands of developers at Microsoft working on GitHub repositories, our own and others in the community. So it's just managing all of that as being a really big challenge. >> Right and it's interesting cause the opensource projects themselves, we've seen at time and time again. You know, they fork and they go a lot of different directions. There's sometimes disagreement about direction. >> Sure. >> And prioritization, so you've got a kind of manage that within the opensource thread but as well as within, you know, where those products play a role in your products. >> Right, right and we've taken a sort of federated model in the company, we're very diverse as you know right and so my team sort of helps put guidelines in place for for project teams to run and then those project teams run their own program. How they engage with opensource, however they want to and sort of at the level they want to that matches their business requirements. So it ranges everywhere from people who are fully opensource to folks who are just you know, using a little bit of stuff here and there within their products. >> Right, what if you could speak a little to opensource and the role that it plays in employee happiness, employee retention cause you know, there's so much goodness and you see it at these shows. >> Absolutely. >> Where there's particular contributors that you know, they're rock stars in their community. They've made super important contributions. >> Yeah. >> They've managed the community and I always think back, if you're the person managing that person back at the office you know, how much time do they put into their opensource effort? >> Sure. >> How much time do they put in their company efforts? How much of their time is really the company software that's built on top of that opensource. >> Yeah. >> And how do you manage that because it is a really important piece for a lot of people's personas. >> Absolutely. >> And their self values. >> Yeah, well and there's been a lot of research that says also that high performing teams, one of the traits of high performing teams is engaging in opensource. And at the personal level like individuals, there's kind of a different set of possibilities there, you know, either you're engaging in opensource for part of your product work, right, so that's sponsored by the company. Or you might be doing some things on the side or some tangential range in between there, right? >> Right. >> And sort of all of those you need to drive to the appropriate level, the folks who are working on it day to day for their, for the company. There's some really interesting dynamics that can get setup. Super exciting for the team, sometimes it can get a little waylaid maybe but you know, you want to keep them, keep them on task. But then also the, the folks who are doing it of their own volition, like on their own time and that sort of thing. That also brings back a bunch of energy and everything into the workplace. New technologies that they'll discover in their area and they'll bring back the energy and the excitement about engaging back to the regular team. >> Right. >> So there's lots of possibilities there. >> So what brings you here, what brings you to AT&T Spark today? >> Well they invited me to speak on a panel earlier today about opensource and the future of opensource and so I had a, there were a couple of other people from Linux Foundation and from AT&T. So we had a good conversation on stage. >> Yeah it's pretty interesting how, pretty much all these projects you know, eventually get put in to the Linux Foundation. That they, you know, they've just kind of become this defacto steward for a wide variety of opensource projects. >> Yeah, well there's a number of different foundations, Linux Foundation's certainly one of the better known ones, the Eclipse Foundation, Apache. >> Right, Apache yeah, right. >> Been around lots of times doing lots of good things. So there's a ton of amazing projects out there in all of these foundations. And it's just super exciting to see them all be engaging like in this sort of cohesive right, and with a good governance model. >> Right. >> Yep. >> So I'll give you the last word, one of my favorite lines always that's opensource is opensource is free like a puppy. >> Yes, it's totally free like a puppy. >> So, you know, you're living in that world, what is one of the things about opensource that most people miss, one of the really positive attributes that most people just don't see. And then what's one of the big, you know kind of biggest, kind of ongoing challenges, that's just part of operating in this opensource world? >> Well I mean, I phrase it in challenges and opportunities, right, there are obviously lots of challenges, like I was saying with scale and managing security. And the culture change that goes around collaboration and that sort of thing. The opportunities, I think are boundless really, I mean there's, one of the most gratifying things that you can see as an opensource project, is people take your technology and use it in ways you never imagined. Right, so there's, we can think of that as our products too and we take our products and they've got opensource APIs. They've got opensource frameworks and such. And people take them and do amazing things with them that we never imagined possible. And that just, that part is really exciting and invigorating. >> Yeah, alright Jeff well thanks for taking a few minutes. >> Sure. >> Congrats on all your work and I guess we'll see you in Orlando in a month or so. >> Okay, possibly. >> Alright, he's Jeff, I'm Jeff, we're all Jeffs here and we're at the Palace of Fine Arts at AT&T Spark, thanks for watching, see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in live in San Francisco, California, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, with John Troyer my co-host analyst this week he's the co-founder of TechReckoning Avisory Community Development Firm, of course I'm the co-host of theCUBE, and this is Harry Mower, Senior Director of Red Hat Developer Group within Red Hat. He handles all the outward community work, also making sure everyone's up to speed, educated, has all the tools. Of course, thanks for coming and joining on theCUBE today. Appreciate you coming on. >> Thanks for having me again. >> Obviously developer community is your customers. They're your users, Open Source is winning. Everything's done out in the open. That's your job, is to bring, funnel things and goods to the community. >> Harry: Yes. >> Take a minute to explain, what you do and what's going on with your role in the community for the Red Hat customers. >> Sure, so my group really handles three things. It's developer tools, our developer program, and the evangelism work that we do. So if I kind of start from the evangelism work, we've got a great group of evangelists who go out, around the world, kind of spreading the Gospel of Red Hat, so to speak, and they talk a lot about the things that are about to come in the portfolio, specific to developer platforms and tools. Then we try to get them into the program, which gives the developers access to the products that we have today, and information that they need to be successful with them. So it's very much about enterprise developers getting easy access to download and install, and get to Hello World as fast as possible, right? And then we also build tools that are tailored to our platform, so that developers can be successful writing the code once they download-- >> John F: And the goal is ultimately, get more people coding, with Linux, with Red Hat, with Open Source. >> Harry: Yep, it's driving more of, I mean from inwardly facing it's driving more adoption of our products but you know, outward, as the developer being our customer, it's really to make them successful and when I took over this role it was one of the things we needed to do was really focus on who the developer was, you know, there's a lot of different types of developers, and we really do focus on the nine to five developer that works within all of our customers' organizations, right? And predominately those that are doing enterprise jobs are for the most part, but we're starting to branch out with that, but it's really those nine to five developers that we're targeting. >> Got to be exciting for you now because we were just in Copenhagen last week for CubeCon with Kubernetes, you know, front and center, we're super excited about that's defacto formation around Kubernetes, the role of containers that's going on there, really kind of give kind of a fresh view, and a clear view, for the developer, your customer, where things are sitting. So how do you guys take that momentum and drive that home, because that's getting a lot of people excited, and also clarifying kind of what's going on. If you're under the hood, you got some Open Stack, if you're a developer, app develop you've got this, and then you've got orchestration here and you got containers. Kind of the perfect storm, for you guys. >> Harry: Yeah and what we've been trying to distribute in the container space, so one of the things we do we have these kind of 10 big bets that we put on a wall that really drive our product decisions, right? And one of the first, maybe the second one we put on the wall was, everything will be in containers, right? And so we knew that it was important for developers to be able to use containers really easily, but we also knew that it's an implementation detail for them. It's not something that they really need to learn a lot about, but they need to be able to use, so we made an acquisition last year, Code Envy was the company, driving force behind Eclipse J, one of the great features of Eclipse J, a lot of people see it as a web based IDE, but it's also a workspace management system, that allows developers' development environments to be automatically containerized, hosted and run on Open Shift at scale, right? And when we show the demo it's really interesting because people see us coding in a browser and "Oh that's pretty neat", and then at the end of it everyone starts to ask questions about the browser part, and I say, "Yeah, but did you notice we never typed a docker command, never had to learn about a Kubernetes file, it was always containerized right from the very beginning, and now your developers are in that world without having to really learn it". And so that's really a big big thing that we're trying to do with our tools, as we move from classic Eclipse on the desktop to these new web based. >> So simplifying but also reducing things that they normally had to do before. >> Yeah. >> Using steps to kind of. >> Yeah, we want to, people don't like when I say it, I don't want to try make them disappear into the background but what I mean is it's simple and easy to use. We take care of the creative room. >> Now is that, that's OpenShift.io? Is that where people get started with that? >> Actually Eclipse J. >> Okay, Eclipse J, okay. >> So it starts in Eclipse J, and then we take that technology and bring it into io as well. >> Gotcha gotcha, can you take a little bit about io then? You know, the experience there, and what people are doing. >> Sure, yeah so io is a concept product that we released last, well we announced last year at Summit. It's really our vision of what an end to end cloud tooling platform is going to look like. Our bet is that, many of our customers today take a lot of time to customize their integrated tool chains, because of necessity, because someone doesn't offer the fully integrated seamless one today. Many of our customers like their little snowflakes that they built, but I believe over time, that the cost of maintaining that will become something that they're not going to like, and that's one of the reasons why we built something like io. It's hosted managed by us, and integrated. >> And what are people using it for? Is this for prototyping, is this, what are people doing on the system? >> Today it's mostly for prototyping, one of the things we did here at this week's Summit is we announced kind of a general availability for Java developer using public repose. Up until this point it's always kind of been experimental. You weren't sure if your data was going to be gone if it was up or down, there's much more stability and kind of a more reliable SLA right now for those types of projects. >> John T: Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I mean, pivoting maybe to the overall developer program, so developers.redhat.com, big announcement yesterday, you reached a million members, congratulations. >> Harry: Thank you very, yeah, thanks a million is what I put in my tweet. It's been a really great journey, I started it three years ago, we consolidated a number of the smaller programs together, so we had a base of about two, 300 ish developers, and we've accelerated that adoption, now we're over a million and growing fast, so it's great. >> What's the priorities as you go on? I mean all of these new tools out there and I was just talking with someone, one of your partners here, we were out at a beer thing last night, got talking and like waterfall's dying in software development but Open Source ethos is going into other areas. Marketing, and so the DevOps concepts are actually being applied to other things. So how are you taking that outreach to the community, so as you take the new Gospel, what techniques do you use? I mean, you're tweeting away, you going in with blogging, content marketing, how are you engaging the content, how are you getting it out in digital? >> Our key thing is the demo, right? So you saw a lot of great demos on stage this week, Burr Sutter on our team did a phenomenal job every day with a set of demos, and we take those demos, those are part of the things we bring to all the other conferences as well, they become the center stage for that, because it's kind of the proof of concept, right? It's the proof of what can be possible, and then we start to build around that. And it helps us show it's possible, it actually helps get our product teams coelest around our idea, they start to build better products, we bring that to customers, and then customer engagement starts early, but that's the key of it. >> I mean demos the ultimate content piece, right? >> It forces everybody to, on the scene-- >> Real demo, not a fake demo. >> And those were all real, that's the thing the demos are so good I think some of them people thought they were fake. I'm like Burr you didn't do a good enough job of like pulling the plug faster, and showing it was real, right? But they're, yes, they're absolutely real demos, real technology working, and that creates a lot of momentum around. >> You guys see any demographics shifts in the developers, obviously there's a new wave of developers coming in, younger certainly, right? You get the older developers that know systems, so you're seeing coexistence of different demographics. Old and young, kind of playing together. >> Yeah, so there's a full spectrum of ages, a full spectrum of diversity, and geography, I mean, it's obvious to everybody that our growing markets are Asia, it's India and China right now. You'll see, you know, Chinese New Year we see a dip in usage in our tools, you know, it's very much, that's where the growth is. Our base right now is still predominately North America and EMIA, but all the growth is obviously Asian and-- >> John T: (mumbles). Harry I wanted to talk about the role of the developer advocate a little bit. It's a relatively new role in the ecosystem, not everybody understands it, I think some companies use a title like that in very different ways, can you talk, it's so important, this peer to peer learning, you know, putting a human face on the company, especially for a company like Red Hat, right? Built from Open Source communities from the ground up. Can you talk a little bit about what is a developer advocate, and am I even getting the title right? But what do they do here at Red Hat? >> Yeah so it's funny, so an evangelist is an advocate, and how do you distinguish the difference? So I spend a lot of time at Microsoft, you know, I think they pioneered a lot of that a long time ago, 10 or 12 years ago, really started doing that, and those ideas have matured, many different philosophies of how you do it. I bring a philosophy here and at work and with Burr, that, you know, it's one thing to preach the Gospel, but the end goal is to get them into Church, right? And eventually get them to, you know, donate, right? So, our evangelists are really out there to convince and you know, get them to adopt. Other models where you're an advocate, it's about funneling, it's almost like a marketing, inbound marketing kind of role, where you're taking feedback from the developers and helping to reshape the product. We do a little bit of that, but it's mostly about understanding what Red Hat has, 'cause when people look at Red Hat they think that's the Linux I used to use, I started in college, right? And for us we're trying to transform that view. >> John F: Huge scope now. >> And that's why we're more of an evangelistic organization. >> I mean Linux falls in the background I mean with cloud. Linux, isn't that what the old people used to like install? Like, it's native now. So again, new opportunities. And Open Shift is a big part of that. >> Yeah and we work hand in hand, there's actually an Open Shift evangelism team that we work hand in hand with, and their job is really more of a workshop style engagement, and get the excitement, bring them to that, and then do the engagements and bring it in. >> John F: What's the bumper sticker to developers? I mean obviously developer's mind sheer is critical. So they got to see the pitch of Linux helps a lot, it's all about the OS, what's the main value proposition to the developers that you guys are trying to have front and center the whole time? >> Harry: For Red Hat specific? >> Yeah yeah. >> It's funny, we just redid all of our marketing about the program, and specifically it's build here, go anywhere. And for two levels, right? With using Red Hat technologies, being part of the Open Source community, you can take those skills and knowledge and go anywhere in your career, right? But also with our technology, you can take that, and you can run it anywhere as well. You can take that technology and run it roll on prem, run it on someone else's cloud, and it really is just, we, you know, we really give the developers a lot of options and possibilities, and when you learn our products and use our products, you can really go anywhere. >> So Harry there's a, I loved how you distinguished at the very beginning of the conversation who the program is for, and that particular role, right? I sit down and I code enterprise products and glue stuff together and build new things, bring new functionality to the market, shit, excuse me, this week has been all about speed to market, right? And that's the developers out there, right? See I get so excited about it. >> That's okay, you can swear. >> (mumbles) >> But you know, there's a lot of shifting roles in IT, and the tech industry, over the last, say, decade or so, you know, do we spec the people who we used to call system mins, do they have to become developers? Open Source contributors also are developers. But it sounds like maybe the roles are clarifying a little bit, other than, you know, an Open Shift operator, you know, doesn't have to be a developer, but does have to be, know about APIs and things, how are you looking at it? >> I don't have too strong an opinion on this, but when I talk to other people and we kind of talk about it, you know the role of the, so we made operations easy enough that developers can do a lot of it, but they can't do all of it, right? And there's still a need for operations people out there, and those roles are a lot around being almost automation developers. Things that you do like an (mumbles) playbook or, you know, what other technology might use, so there is an element of operations people having to start to learn how to do some sort of coding, but it's not the same type of that a normal developer will do. So somehow we're meeting in the middle a little bit. But, I'm so focused on the developer part that I really don't have too strong an opinion. >> Well let us know how we can help, we love your mission, theCUBE is an open community brand, we love to get any kind of content, let us know when your big events are, I certainly want to promote it sir. Open Source is one, it's winning, it's changing and you're starting to see commercialization happen in a nice way, where projects are preserved upstream, people are making great products out of it, so a great opportunity for careers. And building great stuff, I mean new application start-ups, it's all over the place so it's great stuff, so congratulations and thanks for coming on theCUBE. It's theCUBE, out in the open here in the middle of the floor at Moscone West, bringing all the covers from Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be right back with more after this short break, I'm John Furrier, with John Troyer, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone this is the cube live in San Francisco Moscone West for coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube mykos this week as analyst John Schwarz the co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next guest is Craig pizzelles right senior vice president application platforms business and portfolio for Red Hat great to see you welcome back to the cube thank you very much John so big-time executive a company is doing well and you guys are growing adding more people every time being successful again an open source another generations upon us a standing on the shoulders of giants you guys have been a business model for Red Hat for many many years rel certainly successful container madness now mainstream kubernetes clear line of sight on what that's doing as an abstraction layer and standard de-facto standard around orchestration the really good tailwind for you guys and the industry absolutely absolutely congratulations and what's your take I mean obviously you got apps now you're good people gonna be building apps system working OpenStack what's what's going on right well there's a lot going on I mean we've we've been very consistent about our strategy and it's finally starting to pay off and come together and I think the mark is starting to realize that we have been talking about hybrid cloud before it was in vogue and you know well over five years ago and so all those pieces come together we've always talked about a story of there are multiple footprints whether it's physical vert traditional virtual private cloud and public cloud and then companies will want to and customers will want to do more than just the four footprints they want to do multi cloud as well so you know we've been very strong on the infrastructure side having Linux as the base and the operational consistency across those footprints in which to build on and then now containers and kubernetes with OpenShift gives us plus that that last leg together to give us that abstraction layer across these multiple footprints to allow hybrid to happen I wanna get your reaction this because we were talking on our intro package around the dynamic we're seeing in today's business landscape and technical landscape open source clearly the business model for software right check kubernetes provide some interoperability and cloud native growth for new applications cloud we're cloud native what are you gonna call it and then you've got legacy applications for the first time don't have to get thrown away to go to the new world you have the ability to containerize write pre-existing applications while bringing a new functionality new infrastructure new software methodologies development architectures modernizing software yeah while maintaining and preserving the life cycle of pre-existing applications great absolutely this is the dynamic that is really a wonderful thing because takes the pressure off absolutely and I think that's unique to Red Hat which is we've always had not only the hybrid cloud story the multi cloud story but the fact that containers allows you to advanced advanced a movement to you know do digital transformation start using micro services etc but you don't need to start over you can take existing applications you can containerize those applications get them into a cloud environment gain those efficiencies operational efficiencies and development efficiencies and then start to also build new applications based on microservices architectures and bring both together some of the other vendors out there may only have a story about well you have to rewrite everything it right or it's only going to be public cloud and you're tied to those public cloud api's I think you know using containers as a methodology and then using orchestration with kubernetes you can have the best of both worlds and we think that's important I wanted to drill down to the stack a little bit more right I think this year maybe even as opposed to last year the cube was that the OpenStack summit and there was a little bit of confused talk about you know containers you know what on what openshift on OpenStack or vice versa the message this this year very clear you know openshift on OpenStack here's the infrastructure don't get confused so we've got those two layers that you lay down but also there's a lot of application services in the Red Hat stack that you all have built out and I think if people were listening closely right there's a multi-year investment in there in things like you know that originated with an application server like JBoss that now actually in 2018 architectural II look very different now that's a set of services that developers can use so maybe I mean can you talk a little bit about I mean that's an example also I'm not throwing everything out but evolving can talk a little bit about the depth of the stack there and and servicing all those various requirements I mean if you look at the stack we're talking about infrastructure services some of those are in things like OpenStack so you know whether it's compute storage networking etc we demonstrated some ability in through kubernetes to provision and orchestrate VMs and so you saw some of that in the demos that we show today but then once you lay down that foundational layer with containers and kubernetes with openshift then we start to build services on top of that we have been building this portfolio of middleware services for some time and so we can provide messaging as a service we can provide integration and ipad services we have something now called Roar which is packaging together a runtime and frameworks to put together inside of OpenShift we have process management and orchestration technologies business process management so all those services are something that developers need and you start adding those now as cloud services and so the other one of the other things that we've also done beginning about two years ago we began a journey for automating the application lifecycle of building application the pipeline capability we did an acquisition of a company called codenvy which is the founders of eclipse CheY the cloud native ide and workspace environment and so now we've now begun shipping openshift i/o to give you that end-to-end capability from beginning your project to writing the code to doing CI CD and managing the full lifecycle so it's all starting to come together for us a big big talk here at the show about kubernetes being kind of dun dun gnu/linux right the new platform that's going to enable a huge amount of innovation but I love that openshift is more than kubernetes a and also that you know as part of this it's it's a it's you know the role of Linux was a bunch of device drivers right and you're and you're organizing on one machine the clap now that we're in cloud right kubernetes is is about operations like you just said about the code lifecycle about all this stuff and all of a sudden yes it yes it's a it's an analogy but but it's much broader than that it's much broader than that one analogy I mean you made the analogy about Linux I mean Linux basically abstracted a number of hardware architectures and gave you a common operating environment in which to run on x86 or even run on a mainframe or run on power now running on arm you know we have looked at and said well there's a similar analogy now having and taking place with containers in kubernetes where you can create an orchestration layer and an abstraction layer across multiple infrastructures and then building app dev services on top of that so that's what's coming together right now so you know we think it's important also to build out the ecosystem so we're providing application development services on top of this you know this abstraction layer we're building tooling and application lifecycle management but we're also bringing in partners so our announcements today with or yesterday with IBM and even Microsoft they're container izing sequel server they're putting it into our container catalog there will be a distribution of that the the the IBM products and the IBM middleware products and so we'd right now in our ecosystem development program we have about 60 is v's already certified already in a container catalog we grade them in terms of their security so you have some confidence we have another pipeline of another two hundred is BS coming in and then also our service broker so bringing in services we made announcements last year with with AWS to bring in some of their services like lambda and other services into the service broker so you see this hybrid world where you have a lot of different application development capabilities both from us and from our on the ecosystem and the service broker technology to help you bridge you know the best of breed services from all these multiple clouds okay I talked about the ecosystem evolution because you're creating an enabling technology capability and new new growth is coming we see that already kind of on the radar how is that gonna change the ecosystem makeup for you guys actually the the container catalog and ISPs what's it gonna look like is V is gonna be developer I mean what how do you guys envision the ecosystem evolving over the ecosystem it obviously is involved most of these you know most of the traditional the ISPs will begin to offer their own services you know they might be hosting them on AWS but they're gonna provide cloud services so they're gonna be exposing api's to use those services so I see that the evolution isn't there will be a lot of code that you still containerize and offer but there will be many services that are hosted somewhere else posted in a cloud hosting but you want to bring those services to bear I'm creating in an application maybe on Prem with openshift but I need to use a machine learning service from perhaps Google or from Watson and IBM so how do i and those are hosted services so how do I use those services even though my cloud native environment is inside inside the inside the firewall front I'm an integration or two critical pieces you guys got a layout across that right yeah yeah yes and so there's a distributed computer it sounds like an operating system out but it's spread all over the place it's spread all over the place your thoughts on your current portfolio how's it kind of all you talk about some of the services you're enabling within your own portfolio for your customers out there now rel very stable operationally everybody knows that how is the portfolio within Red Hat gonna continue to evolve at what's their vision there yeah so we are beginning to do more of you know integrating infrastructure services in from kubernetes so what you saw you know cnv containerized virtualization allows you to orchestrate VMS we've done the same thing with storage and storage virtualization you'll see more on the infrastructure side probably things like networking are next some of the API is within OpenStack but then up stack we're looking at other capabilities we do have a project going on right now with server list it's in tech preview it was demoed yesterday so you'll see a server list offering from us we have been experimenting with machine learning and AI and we're using it inside of our own capabilities like insights which is a management a hosted management tool but providing machine learning capabilities and offering those inside natively with inside of open ship these are all futures and part of the roadmap that we have going forward for application developers out there are potential partners of Red Hat what's the mandate in your mind to make kubernetes a first-class citizen so if I'm watching I want it I want a vector into this you know skate to where the puck is going kind of mindset what do I need to do what is an enterprise and a business or developer or startup right need to do two cunning connect into the growth is it a playbook do you see something involving that stick and maybe a clear line one of the things I mean from is just a technical basis if you if a partner has software well get a containerized figure out how that works in containers how many how do you structure that if a partner has a service then make that available through the service broker we will work with those partners to you know look at business models that might be appropriate in a cloud native environment that spans across cloud to help them market so those are some of the things I think you know a partner or an ecosystem provider would you should think about what's the feedback of the show here after the hallway conversations Dobbs a lot a lot of openshift conversations it's a centerpiece what are you hearing what are you seeing what's what's going on for you at the show here I think the breadth of what Red Hat has become I you know when we'd go to shows five six years ago we had you know started to build out the portfolio but you know people would still come to the show and you know it's the Linux show but it's no longer the Linux show it's it's a much bigger it's it's about computing open-source computing in the enterprise and cloud-based computing and so the breadth of the portfolio I think is a surprise for many people and how many things we do offer when you look at some of the customer testimonials and the demos we're showing everything from you know infrastructure and private cloud infrastructure out to very sophisticated application development use cases so I think that's a big difference than what you might have seen six broad you're broadening your portfolio from standalone Linux to include management applicate more applications this is a bigger market it's a much bigger market I think we you know we view our we we view our opportunity as becoming the computing platform both at an infrastructure level and helping the developers for the next you know for the next 50 years so hopefully right and it's a shift in the marketplace - and a shift in skill set of the people who are here right that's another thing that to be able to pull those two people into the future like yeah absolutely I mean the skill set used to be again you know a primary linux show a lot of linux systems administrators and and data center executives and data center managers and now you have a much more senior levels many c-suite people coming here to to understand how they transform their business how open-source can help how this broad hybrid cloud platform can help and then a large set of architects and developers so the mix is really interesting now it's not just the infrastructure and data center guys but it's the executives that make those decisions as well as the application develop you have more community members that are users inside the open source projects making things happen oh absolutely you guys now it helps everyone else oh I was just approached by a large bank this week and on openshift i/o which is this tool chain this pipeline capability now an open shift they want to participate they asked how do we get involved in the projects in the upstream projects we would like to build this out so that's just one example I think of and we get asked all the time about hey can you teach us how to be an open company how to be how does open source work how could we facilitate that in our culture to be a little bit more creative collaborative and move faster so I mean open source model is definitely real what are the customer feedback can you share because we're hearing the same thing the customers saying okay it's easier to recruit it's easier to just make everything open just from an operational standpoint right what are some of your top customers that have been with red head for a while what are they saying to you when they say wow this the benefits are are well well the benefits I think are are that they are much faster to market they can leverage skills and capabilities that may not be inherent in their own company beyond their walls they could you know get build ecosystems that have affinity to the to themselves all because they're just you know reaching out there they're participating in open source communities and trying to create a culture of open source and then you get better products out of a certain link wray thanks for coming on the cube and sharing your insights congratulations on all your success great to have you on we're here at the Red Hat summit 28 teens the cubes live covers stay with us for more work day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage we'll be right back after this short break I'm John four with John Troy here stay with us

San Francisco it's the Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone this is the cube live in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube and this week for three days of wall-to-wall coverage my co-host analyst is John Tory the co-founder of check reckoning and advisory and community development services firm industry legend formerly VMware's Bentley he was at the Q in 2010 our first ever cube nine years ago John Day one wrap up let's analyze what we heard and dissect and and put Red Hat into day one in the books but you know clearly it's a red-letter day for red hat so to speak your thoughts big day for open shift I think and hybrid cloud right we just saw a lot of signs here that we'll talk about that it's real there's real enterprises here real deployments in the cloud multi-cloud on-site hybrid cloud and i think there's really no doubt about that they really brought a brought the team out and you know red hat's become a bellwether relative to the tech industry because if you look at what they do there's so many irons on the fires but more the most important is that they have huge customer base in the enterprise which they've earned over a decades of work being the open source renegade to the open source darling and Tier one citizen they got a huge install basin they got to manage this so they can't just throw you know spaghetti at the wall they gotta have big solutions they're very technical company very humble but they do make some good tech bets absolutely we'll be talking with the folks from core OS tomorrow they have a couple of other action you know things we'll be talking about a lot of interesting partnerships the the most you know the thing here Linux is real and it's is the 20-year growth and that it's real in the enterprise and I mean the top line think the top line slowed and John is is is kubernetes than the gnu/linux for the cloud and I got to say there's some reality there yeah it's there's no doubt about it I mean then I've got my notes here just my summary for the day is on that point the new wave is here okay the glue layer that kubernetes and containers provide on top of say Linux in this case OpenShift a you know alternative past layer just a few years ago becomes the centerpiece of red hats you know architecture really providing some amazing benefits so I think what's clear is that this new shift this new wave is massive and we've heard on the cube multiple references to tcp/ip HTTP these are seminal moments where there's a massive inflection point where the games just radically changes for the better wealth creation happens startups boom new brands emerged that we've never heard of that just come out of the woodwork entrepreneurial activity hits an all-time high and they all these things are coming yeah I said John I was really impressed if we talk to a number of folks who are involved with technologies that some people might call legacy right we the Java programmers the IBM WebSphere folks they've been you you look at these technologies solid proven tested but yet still over here and adapted for today right and they talked about how they're fitting into openshift how they're fitting into modern application development and you're not leaving those people behind they're really here and you know the old joke going back to say Microsoft when Steve Ballmer was the CEO hell will freeze over when Linux isn't in in Microsoft ecosystem look today no further than what's going on in their developer Commerce called Microsoft build where Linux is the centerpiece of their open-source strategy and Microsoft has transformed themselves into a total open-source world so you know now you got Oracle with giving up Java II calling a Jakarta essentially bringing Java into an the Eclipse community huge move it's a kind of a nuance point but that's another signal of the shifts going on out in the open where communities aren't just yesterday's open source model a new generation of open source actors are coming in a new model I think the CNC F is showing it the Linux Foundation proves that you can have commercialization downstream with open source projects as that catalyst point as a big deal and I think that is happening at a new new level and it's super exciting to see yeah I mean open source is the new normal sure that that works it's in the enterprise but that doesn't mean that open source disappears it actually means that open source and communities and companies coming together to drive innovation actually gets more and more important I kind of thought well you know it's open source well everybody does open source but actually the the dynamics we're seeing of these both large companies partnering with small companies foundations like you talked about the Linux cutlasses various parts the Linux Foundation cloud boundary foundation etc right are really making a big impact well we had earlier on assistant general counsel David Levine and bringing about open source I think one key thing that's notable is this next generation of open source wave comes is the business model of open source and operationalizing it in not just server development lifecycle but in the business operation so for example spending resources on managing proprietary products with that have open source components separate from the community is a resource that you don't have to spend anymore if you just contribute everything to open source that energy can go away so I think open source projects and the product monetization component not new concepts is now highlighted as a bonafide competitive advantage across the company not just proven but like operationally sound legally verified certified and I think also you have to look at the distribution of open source versus the operation and management of open source we see a lot of management managed kubernetes coming out and in fact we didn't talk about today Microsoft big announcement here at the show Microsoft is on Azure is running a managed open ship not not kubernetes they already have kubernetes they're running a managed open ship another way of adding value to an open open source platforms to date directly to the IT operator honestly do you think these kind of deals would happen if you go back four years three years ago oh no way as you're running an open shift absolutely I mean were you crazy the you know the kingdom is turned upside down absolutely this is a notable point I want to get your reaction is because I see this absolutely as validation to the new wave being here with kubernetes containers as a de facto rallying point an inflection point big deals are happening IBM and Red Hat big deal we just talked about them with the players here two bellwether saying we're getting behind containers and two bays in a big way from that relationship essentially it changes the game literally overnight for IBM changes the game for Red Hat I think a little bit more for IBM than Red Hat already gets a ton of benefit but IBM instantly gets a cloud strategy that has a real scalable product market to it Arvind the the head of research laid that out and IBM now can go and compete with major players on deals with the private cloud more deals are coming absolutely this is the beginning now that everyone snapped into place is saying okay kubernetes and containers we now understand this the rallying cry a de facto standard I think a formation is going to happen in the next six to 12 months of major major major players now I mean we are in a not one size does not fit all world John so I mean we will continue to see healthy ecosystems I mean mesosphere and DT cos is still out there Dockers still out there right you will see very functional communities and and functioning application platforms and cloud platforms but you got to say the momentum is here I mean look at amine docker mace those fears look at when things like this happened this is my opinion so I'm just gonna say it out there when you have de facto standards that happen like this it's an opportunity to differentiate so I think what's gonna happen is docker meso sphere and others including the legacy guys like IBM and in others they have to differentiate their products they have to compete software companies so I think docker I think is come tonight at docker con but my opinion looking at from the outside is I think Dockers realized looking we can't make money from containers kubernetes is happening we're a great standard in that let's be a software company let's differentiate around kubernetes so this is just more pressure or more call-to-action to deliver good software hey it's never been of somebody said it's never been a better time to be an IT and IT infrastructure right this is a you think that the tools we have available to us super-powerful another key point I want to get your reaction on with kubernetes and containers this kind of de facto standardization is breathing new life into good initiatives and legacy projects so you think about OpenStack okay OpenStack gets a nice segmented approach is now clear with a where the swim lanes are you're an app developer you go over here and if you are a network and infrastructure guy you're going here but middleware a from talk to the Red Hat guys here we talk to IBM those legacy and apps can put a container around it and don't have to be thrown away and take their natural course now I think it's gonna be a three line through this holy a second life is for legacy and stuff and then to cloud is and it's in second inning because now you have the enablement for cloud your reaction the enablement of cloud Ibn iBM has cloud and then the market shares of nm who you believe they're not in that they're in the top three but they're not double digits according to synergy research and he bought us a little bit higher but still if you compare public cloud they're small they look at IBM's and tire and small base and saying if they have a specialty cloud that can be assembled quit Nellie yeah and scaled and maybe instantly successfully overnight yeah I think a few years ago you know there was a lot different always a few years back it always looks confusing right a few years back we were still arguing public cloud private cloud as private cloud ed is what is a true private cloud is that even valuable I still see people on Twitter making fun of everything anybody who's not 100% into the full public cloud which means they must not have talked to you know a lot of IT folks who have to business to run today so I think you're saying it's a it's a it's a multivalent world multi-cloud there's going to be differentiated clouds there's going to be operational clouds there's gonna be financial clouds and just it's it seems clear that you know from the perspective of right now here in San Francisco and 2018 that that you know the purpose of public-private hybrid seems pretty clear just like the purpose of like I said we're gonna in two weeks we'll be an openstack summit I mean the purpose of that seems pretty clear it's it's funny it's like I had this argument and each Assateague he thinks everything should go the public cloud goes eaten has one of the public clouds but he's kind of right and I and I and we talked about this way I with him I said if everything is running cloud operation we're talking about cloud ops we're talking about how its managed how its deployed code bases across the board if everything is clarified from an OP raishin standpoint the Dearing on Prem and cloud and IOT edge is there's no difference stuffs moving around so you almost treats a data center as an edge network so now it's sexually all cloud in my mind so then and also you do have to keep in mind time time horizons right anybody who has to do work the today this quarter right has to keep in mind what's what what portfolio of business deeds and tools do I have right now versus what it's gonna look like in a few years all right so I want to get your thoughts on your walk away from today I'll start my walk away from day one was talking some of the practitioners Macquarie Bank and Amadeus to me they're a tell signed the canary in the coalmine what's happening horizontally scalable synchronous infrastructure the new model is here now we're seeing them saying things like it's a streaming world not just Kafka for streaming data streaming services levels of granularity that at workers traded with containers and kubernetes up and down the stack to me architects who think that way will have a preferred advantage over everybody else that to me was like okay we're seeing it play out I guess I totally agree right the future isn't evenly distributed my takeaway though is there's certainly a future here and the people we talked to today are doing real-world enterprise scale multi-cloud micro services and modern architectures incorporating their legacy applications and components and that and they're just doing it and they're not even breaking a sweat so I think IT has really changed ok day one coverage continues day two tomorrow we have three days of wall-to-wall coverage day two and then finally day three Thursday here in San Francisco this is the cubes live coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the videos they're gonna be going up as soon as they are done live here and check out all the cube alumni and check out Silicon angle comm for all news coverage then of course you got tech reckoning Jon's company's the co-founder of for John Fourier and John Shroyer that's day one in the books thanks for watching see you tomorrow

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to see CUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018 live in San Francisco, California at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, your cohost of theCUBE with John Troyer co-founder of Tech Reckoning advisory and community development firm. Our next two guests Mike Piech Vice President and General Manager of middleware at Red Hat and Mark Little, Vice President of Software Engineering for middleware at Red Hat. This is the stack wars right here. Guys thanks for coming back, good to see you guys again. >> Great to see you too. >> So we love Middleware because Dave Vellante and I and Stu always talk about like the real value is going to be created in abstraction layers. You're seeing examples of that all over the place but Kubernetes containers, multi-cloud conversations. Workload management and all these things are happening at these really cool abstraction layers. That's obviously you say global I say middleware but you know it's where the action is. So I got to ask you, super cool that you guys have been leading in there but the new stuff's happening. So let's just go review last year or was it this year? What's different this year, new things happening within the company? We see core OS' in there, you guys got OpenShift is humming along beautifully. What's new in the middleware group? >> There's a few things. I'll take one and then maybe Mike can think of another while I'm speaking but when we were here this time last year we were talking about functions as a service or server-less and we had a project of our own called Funktion with a K, between then and now the developer affinity around functions as a service has just grown. Lots of people are now using it and starting to use it in production. We did a review of what we were doing back then and looked around at other efforts that were in the market space and we decided actually we wanted to get involved with a large community of developers and try and move that in a direction that was pretty beneficial for everybody but clearly for ourselves. And we've decided, and we announced this publicly last year but we're now involved with a project called Apache OpenWhisk instead of Funktion. And OpenWhisk is a project that IBM originally kicked off. We got involved, it was tied very closely to cloud foundering so one of the first things that we've been doing is making it more Kubernetes native and allowing it to run on OpenShift. In fact we're making some announcements this week around our functions are service based on Apache OpenWhisk. But that's probably one of the bigger things that's changed in the last 12 months. >> I would just add to that that across the rest of the middleware portfolio which is as you know, a wide range of different technologies, different products, in our integration area we continue to push ahead with containerizing, putting the integration technologies in the containers, making it easier to basically connect the different components of applications and different applications to each other together through different integration paradigms whether it's messaging or more of a bus style. So with our Jboss Fuse and our AMQ we've made great progress in continuing to refine how those are invoked and consumed in the Openshift environment. Forthcoming very shortly, literally in the next week or two is our integration platform as a service based on the Fuse and AMQ technologies. In addition we've continued to charge ahead with our API management solution based on the technology we acquired from Threescale a couple of years ago. So that is coming along nicely, being very well adopted by our customers. Then further up the stack on the process automation front, so some of the business process management types of technologies we've continued to push ahead with containerizing and that was being higher up the stack and a little bit bigger a scale of technology was a little bit more complex in really setting it up for the containerized world but we've got our Process Automation 7.0 release coming out in the next few weeks. That includes some exciting new technology around case management, so really bringing all of those traditional middleware capabilities forward into the Cloud Native, containerized environment has been I would say the most significant focus of our efforts over the last year. >> Go ahead. >> Can you contextualize some of that a little bit for us? The OpenShift obviously a big topic of conversation here. You know the new thing that everyone's looking at and Kubernetes, but these service layers, these layers it takes to build an app still necessary, Jboss a piece of this stack is 17, 18 years old, right? So can you contextualize it a little bit for people thinking about okay we've got OpenStack on the bottom, we've got OpenShift, where does the middleware and the business process, how has that had to be modernized? And how are people, the Java developers, still fitting into the equation? >> Mark: So a lot of that contextualization can actually, if we go back about four or five years, we announced an initiative called Xpass which was to essentially take the rich middleware suite of products and capabilities we had, and decompose them into independently consumable services kind of like what you see when you look at AWS. They've got the simple queuing service, simple messaging service. We have those capabilities but in the past they were bundled together in an app server, so we worked to pull them apart and allow people to use them independently so if you wanted transactions, or you wanted security, you didn't have to consume the whole app server you actually had these as independent services, so that was Xpass. We've continued on that road for the past few years and a lot of those services are now available as part and parcel of OpenShift. To get to the developer side of things, then we put language veneers on top of those because we're a Java company, well at least middleware is, but there's a lot more than Java out there. There's a lot of people who like to use Pearl or PHP or JavaScript or Go, so we can provide language specific clients for them to interact. At the end of the day, your JavaScript developer who's using bulletproof, high performing messaging doesn't need to know that most of it is implemented in Java. It's just a complete opaque box to them in a way. >> John F: So this is a trend of microservices, this granularity concept of this decomposition, things that you guys are doing is to line up with what people want, work with services directly. >> Absolutely right, to give developers the entire spectrum of granularity. So they can basically architect at a granularity that's appropriate for the given part of their job they're working on it's not a one size fits all proposition. It's not like throw all the monoliths out and decompose every last workload into it's finest grain possible pieces. There's a time and a place for ultra-fine granularity and there's also a time and a place to group things together and with the way that we're providing our runtimes and the reference architectures and the general design paradigm that we're sort of curating and recommending for our customers, it really is all about, not just the right tool for the job but the right granularity for the job. >> It's really choice too, I mean people can choose and then based on their architecture they can manage it the way they want from a design standpoint. Alright I got to get your guys' opinion on something. Certainly we had a great week in Copenhagen last week, in Denmark, around CUBECon, Kubernetes conference, Cloud NativeCon, whatever it's called, they're called two things. There was a rallying cry around Kubernetes and really the community felt like that Linix moment or that TCPIP moment where people talk about standards but like when will we just do something? We got to get behind it and then differentiate and provide all kinds of coolness around it. Core defacto stand with Kubernetes is opening up all kinds of new creative license for developers, it's also bringing up an accelerated growth. Istio's right around the corner, Cubeflow have the cool stuff on how software's being built. >> Right. >> So very cool rallying cry. What is the rallying cry in middleware, in your world? Is there a similar impact going on and what is that? >> Yeah >> Because you guys are certainly affected by this, this is how software will be built. It's going to be orchestrated, composed, granularity options, all kinds of microservices, what's the rallying cry in the middleware? >> So I think the rallying cry, two years ago, at Summit we announced something called MicroProfile with IBM, with Tomitribe, another apps vendor, Piara and a few quite large Java user groups to try and do something innovative and microservices specific with Enterprise Java. It was incredibly successful but the big elephant in the room who wasn't involved in that was Oracle, who at the time was still controlling Java E and a lot of what we do is dependent on Java E, a lot of what other vendors who don't necessarily talk about it do is also dependent on Java E to one degree or another. Even Pivotal with Springboot requires a lot of core services like messaging and transactions that are defined in Java E. So two years further forward where we are today, we've been working with IBM and Oracle and others and we've actually moved, or in process of moving all of Java E away from the old process, away from a single vendor's control into the Eclipse Foundation and although that's going to take us a little while longer to do we've been on that path for about four or five months. The amount of buzz and interest in the community and from companies big and small who would never have got involved in Java E in the past is immense. We're seeing new people get involved with Eclipse Foundation, and new companies get involved with Eclipse Foundation on a daily basis so that they can get in there and start to innovate in Enterprise Java in a much more agile and interesting way than they could have done in the past. I think that's kind of our rallying call because like I said we're getting lots of vendors, Pivotal's involved, Fujitsu. >> John F: And the impact of this is going to be what? >> A lot more innovation, a lot quicker innovation and it's not going to be at the slow speed of standards it's going to be at the fast, upstream, open source innovative speed that we see in likes of Kubernetes. >> And Eclipse has got a good reputation as well. >> Yeah, the other significant thing here, in addition to the faster innovation is it's a way forward for all of that existing Java expertise, it's a way for some of the patterns and some of the knowledge that they have already to be applied in this new world of Cloud Native. So you're not throwing out all that and having to essentially retrain double digit millions of developers around the world. >> John F: It's instant developer actually and plus Java's a great language, it's the bulldozer of languages, it can move a lot, it does a lot of heavy lifting >> Yep. >> And there's a lot of developers out there. Okay, final question I know you guys got to go, thanks for spending the time on theCUBE, really appreciate certainly very relevant, middleware is key to the all the action. Lot of glue going on in that layers. What's going on at the show here for you guys? What's hot, what should people pay attention to? What should they look for? >> Mark: I'll give my take, what's hot is any talk to do with middleware >> (laughs) Biased. >> But kind of seriously we do have a lot of good stuff going on with messaging and Kafka. Kafka's really hot at the moment. We've just released our own project which is eventually going to become a product called Strimsy, integrated with OpenShift so it's coognative from the get-go, it's available now. We're integrating that with OpenWhisk, which we talked about earlier, and also with our own reactive async platform called Vertex, so there's a number of sessions on that and if I get a chance I'm hoping to say into one >> John F: So real quick though I mean streaming is important because you talk about granularity, people are going to start streaming services with service measures right around the corner, the notion of streaming asynchronously is going to be a huge deal >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Mark: And tapping into that stream at any point in time and then pulling the plug and then doing the work based on that. >> Also real quick, Kubernetes, obviously the momentum is phenomenal in Cloud Native but becoming a first class citizen in the enterprise, still some work to do. Thoughts on that real quick? Would you say Kubernetes's Native, is it coming faster? Will it ever be, certainly I think it will be but. >> I think this is the year of Kubernetes and of enterprise Kubernetes. >> Mike: I mean you just look at the phenomenal growth of OpenShift and that in a way speaks directly to this point >> Mike, what's hot, what's hot? What are you doing at the show, what should we look at? I'd add to, I certainly would echo the points Mark made and in addition to that I would take a look at any session here on API management. Again within middleware the three-scale technology we acquired is still going gangbusters, the customers are loving that, finding it extremely helpful as they start to navigate the complexity of doing essentially distributive computing using containers and microservices, getting more disciplined about API management is of huge relevance in that world, so that would be the next thing I'd add. >> Congratulations guys, finally the operating system called the Cloud is taking over the world. It's basically distributed computer all connected together, it sounds like >> All that stuff we learned in the eighties right (laughs) >> It's a systems world, the middleware is changing the game, modern software construction of Apple cases all being done in a new way, looking at orchestration, server lists, service meshes all happening in real time, guys congratulations on the all the work and Red Hats. Be keeping it in the open, Java E coming around the corner as well, it's theCUBE bringing it out in the open here in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with John Troyer we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break

>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation. And its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Copenhagen Denmark this is KubeCon 2018 Europe, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jewell, he's the CEO of WSO2 with some big news, they're introducing a new programming language called Ballerina. Welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us! >> Hey thank you for having me. >> So you're now the new CEO of WSO2, couple months almost a year. You guys have big news introducing a new programming language called Ballerina here. Tell us a bit about what this is. What's the big story? >> Well Ballerina is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESB's are not agile, and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple, and agile. >> So take a step back how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is, and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details, and how long have you been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. >> Well WS02 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers, and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world. And all of our technology is open-source. Now we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world, and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long in advance, it requires huge teams, and there's no decentralization of the work. And we need to make integration agile again. And in order to do that we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done. And we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. >> It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been all imagined. Another waterfall project again coming back, again and again repeating it, with Cloud the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows, and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is is speed is it the tech demand for applications, what's the key? >> I think that what we're seeing is, really sophisticated and complex demand coming from kind-cuser consumers. Companies like Uber Slack and Amazon have witnessed this. And in order to scale to meet this complex demand, these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are tenexing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture, you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints. There are 50 billion right now. The forecasts are that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. >> Totally right I was just going to say glue layer, but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now, the CloudNative Foundation. Pretty massive growth, look at the logosly he sponsors. Just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand, but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers, where with open-source it's about really taking pre-existing code, and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security, these are all operating system kind of questions. >> Well I think also it's open right? I mean that is part of the key here, it's the fact that it's open-source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open-source perspective, is that right? >> Yeah we are the seventh largest open-source company, all the software that we publish is Apache License, and we found a way to monetize open-source without having to play open core games, where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations, where are developers gravitating to these days? That's always a question people always look at after the fact, they just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? >> Well first, we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open-source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary, but now they have program offices dedicated to open-source, and it encourages onboarding, adoption and giving back to open-source projects, so that trend is still significant. And as a result there's a lot of open-source foundations and non-profits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation, and all of its sub-organizations that are there, and we've also seen a resurgence in other open-source foundations like the Eclipse foundation as well. >> Lauren and I were talking about the opening about Kubernetes and that, outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or the industry, you go to a standard enterprise. Waterfall moving to agile, Kubernetes is new. >> Tyler: Yeah. >> So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises, and how should people think about the big movement to CloudNative, with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? >> I think that the momentum around Kubernetes, particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it, means that we have a de facto standard for a run-time platform that can engage both operations and development. And in the first time over the past 20 years, we do not have a fragmented market anymore. And when you don't have a fragmented market, the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically, and I think that's why we so many vendors here, and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. >> It's super awesome. What do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization? With the standardization people can rally around it. >> Yeah. >> Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? >> I think that the next level of work here is, this is the year of the service mesh. And really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations, and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up, and that's where the standardization is going to go next. >> And certainly containers are great. How about security what's your view on security? Because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google's got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked is it being baked out? What's new what's your view on security? >> I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings the spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world, but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked-on, add-on thing that's applied to your applications, and instead we actually need to look at programming languages in the apps that you write, as being security proof from the very beginning. And that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well >> How is Ballerina handling that? Are they doing it up front? >> Well our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted. And that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion and tax on that, and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tag. >> Yeah assume the worst, hope for the best right? >> How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform this is a different programming language, talk a little bit about that. >> This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long. And you and I both started our careers 20 years ago in developer evangelism Lauren right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it, that's how you do it. >> What's the state of the language now shipping? Is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan how are you going to roll this thing out? >> It is shipping now, we just hit our .970 release we've been at it for 3 years, we've got a hundred committers on the project, but we just went public this week with Ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks, and we hope to get to a Juanado language lock by the end of this year, and then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2 our company will offer commercial support, and have it in use and production with our customer accounts >> And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe what's the feedback, what are you hearing? >> The vibe is hot right? It's a new programming language, it's got an awesome logo associated with this, but more importantly the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours, and developers love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. >> For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe, that didn't make the trip from the US or are watching remote, What's the big takeaway in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes what's the takeaway? >> I think that the big takeaway is that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that, and that the ecosystem is ready to support you, and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. >> And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant? >> Ridiculous. >> Yeah cool. (laughter) Tyler thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it! >> Lauren: Thank you. >> Utterly my pleasure thank you for having me. >> Hey live coverage here in Denmark, we're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering InterConnect 2017, brought to you by IBM. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We are live in Las Vegas, at the Mandalay Bay, for IBM's InterConnect 2017. It's the cloud and big-data Watson show that's all kind of coming together. This is theCUBE's three-day coverage, wall-to-wall day two, coming to an end here. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Dave Lindquist who's an IBM Fellow, vice-president of Cloud DevOps and Analytics, at IBM. Great to have you on theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, John, thank you, Dave. >> So, love to have the IBM Fellows on, because we can then, like, get down and dirty, right? Get down and talk about the tech. I don't see if Ginnie's on stage today, I love the bumper sticker she has, 'cause she's, she nails it; enterprise strong, data first, cognitive to the core. So, enterprise strong means, there's a cloud-readiness equation going on right now, and we just came back from Google Next, and, hey, we've got great technology, buy us. Well, SLAs matter. You know, being enterprise ready isn't always about the best tech. >> No, no. >> It's about everything; it's the data, it's the machine-learning, it's the software, and also, those table stakes going on in the enterprise. Unpack that for us. >> Sure. Well, I think a lot of what you just went through, is at least part of the driving force between bringing ops into the dev space, this DevOps thing, and we'll expand on that in a little bit. But one of the big pushes going on is really around site reliability engineering, and how do you appropriately bring the skills together with the development teams to really set systems up in elastic scale, recovery-oriented compute models, so that you can scale that with the demand, you can recover from situations, you can recover from failures, you have a lot of redundancy built in the system. It takes a lot of time for teams to mature, to understand that, that aspect of delivering cloud services and delivering applications into, into a continuous available environment. >> What's IBM's formula for that right now, is you guys ramp-up and scale-up the cloud, IBM Cloud, you have the soft layer, and that's now Bluemix. So you have, on the lower end of the stack, you got to get that hardened infrastructure, if it's a service, and the platforms and service stuff. Then you start to bleed into the Bluemix. It's all one Bluemix now, but, you've got app developers, they want infrastructure as code, they want data as code, but then you got to have an uncoupling of set of services that look like one set of services. How hard is that, and what are you guys doing specifically to talk to customers about the value you're bringing on both sides of that camp? You know, the hard workload focused hybrid, to the creative sizzle of an app. >> Yeah, well, lot in that question, there's a lot of parts, lot of parts there. One of the things that's clearly going on, is, taking that next step in loose coupling systems, creating more independent services that can scale, elastically, independently of each other, the recovery-oriented models, and then presenting those services, up at the layers you mentioned; at the infrastructural areas, compute-storage networking, into the paths and container layers, so that the application developers can very rapidly get the environment they need, compose the services that they need, like the runtimes, data, messaging, et cetera, as a loosely-coupled system, and then build their applications to be deployed into that environment. >> How much innovation is going on? You're starting to see now, a new trend where there's more hardware engineering going into some chips, and hardware configurations, that's essentially software-driven, to offload, maybe machine-learning, some other, cooler things, that can assist some of the hard stuff that frees up more creativity on the software side. Say, machine-learning is a great example, you're starting to see Intel and others start thinking, okay, let's put some stuff on a chip. You have 5G wireless, you've got autonomous vehicles coming, a whole new hardware paradigm is kind of emerging with the cloud; how do you see that playing out, from an innovation standpoint? How does that strategy play out from a cloud, and IoT? >> To me, a lot of the things that are so exciting that's going on in the cloud, probably the big driver in the cloud is this whole acceleration of innovation. How quickly can you get from, instantiate an idea, in-field, iterate in-field with your users, towards a business outcome, and as you hit those outcomes, start scaling and expanding that out. And a lot of that innovation is building on some of the things that you mentioned: big data, cognitive, IoT, social, how do you start bringing these things together? And so, as you bring this together, real-time, you clearly need just exponential growth occurring, in compute capacity, which is probably creating, not probably, it's creating all kinds of opportunities for breakthroughs in algorithms, and breakthroughs in the hardware to support that. >> The other thing that we're seeing, I want to get your thoughts and commentary on is, how analytics is so compatible with the cloud, because, you're seeing that sweet spot developing nicely, and also with cloud-native trend is booming. You're seeing cloud-native compute foundations got big traction, and then the analytics is, people have no problem putting that in the public could, but yet they want the hybrid over here for some other stuff. So the workloads are starting to settle into their swim lanes. Your thoughts on the DevOps equation, as analytics moves to the cloud, not exclusively, but you know, for the majority of cases, and this cloud-native trend that's coming down the pike. >> Yeah, so, break that down in a couple pieces, the cloud-native trend, as well as the analytics trend. The cloud-native trend, what you see is a lot of development with micro services, and part of what makes that so exciting, is the culture of the teams and how they come together. You're basically seeing small teams, small, integrated teams, often called two-pizza teams, or squads, where you pull together designers with developers, with tests, with data science, with business, insights business strategy, into a team that then works together through the whole life-cycle, iterating incrementally and delivering in-field, to, as they move towards that business outcome that they're trying to achieve. So, what cloud-native is doing, is allowing, where that micro service model is really allowing many of these teams to work with relative autonomy, but accountability for their service, as it comes together to bring the full system together. What we're learning is that, one, you get a lot of speed like that, but then you start to, you need a level of analytics to help understand how that's coming together through that whole life-cycle, and what I mean by that is, you know, how is the testing coming along? So that everybody needs to start adopting more continuous testing, from unit tests, right, performance testing, availability, right into security testing. So you start running basic, simple analytics, where you start gathering on how the teams are doing in the continuous testing, and you can start setting soft and hard gates. An example of a soft gate might be, code coverage is dropping, so send an alert to the team to say, you've got to step up the code coverage. A hard gate might be, a security scan failed, so stop the deploy. And so, that's a basic set of analytics, but, the fun areas, to me, the exciting areas, we're starting to apply much more sophisticated models, are in understanding code health, and how the teams are actually working together. So you start developing models-- >> It's almost like team chemistry and coding working together. It's like, hey, you guys are good. You know, you're in the zone, you know? You're in the coding zone. Yeah, but this is a good point, I want to highlight just, let's just stop on that one point, I want to just drill down. I think that you nailed something that's, we've been kind of teasing out, and you put into words, the cloud-native trend around micro services, you mentioned teams working together, maybe some shared analytics, and kind of, code health, team, you know, scoreboard, or whatever. This is way beyond agile. I mean, agile has been a term that's been talked about inside companies, hey, let's be agile. You're talking about a fundamental industry reconfiguration of the players, so this is like a whole 'nother ballgame. >> To me, it builds on agile, what's going on, it does build on-- >> It goes beyond, it's-- >> But it goes way beyond, and even, you know, the early thinking, in DevOps, I think we're really pushing the envelope when we still call it DevOps, because we're thinking of the broad life-cycle of, you know, design practices. How do you begin to understand your users and what you're trying to accomplish with your users? Then you get into, you know, continuous integration, delivery, and testing, but then where it gets real interesting, is you start instrumenting everything, including, you know, getting direct LAN to site insight into how your users are using what you're deploying, and that causes the ability to pivot very rapidly, daily, weekly, into, you know, guiding where you're going to take your next iterations. To me, that's what's really taking this way past what you typically saw in an agile-- >> So what's happening to this traditional IT function? How is it adapting? You know, is it bi-modal, is there subtraction layer coming in, is there an equilibrium being reached between old and new? How would you describe what's going on? >> Fascinating question. What I often see in most of the enterprises I work in, is, they have a couple of investments going on. They're on a journey, a dev transformation journey, and a lot of that is, you know, really at the core of it, embracing DevOps. But what you'll see is, there's groups really pushing the envelope in these teams with cloud-native, micro service development, really all about speed, how quickly can they take small teams, get the idea into market? But then what you also see going on is, large sets of very valuable assets that data transactional systems, and how do you start embracing more, and more automation, to really reduce the cycle times, improve the service levels, and to effectively, start taking cost out of that full equation, that full life-cycle. So, what you're seeing, is a lot of automation coming into the existing IT environment. You're seeing a lot more of taking down of the silos of ops, and development teams, and that's going on in the core areas, and in the more cloud-native area, you're seeing, there's actually a common team put together, and they basically own the whole spectrum. They build it, they run it, the whole piece. >> You would think the competitive implications of this are huge. Without naming names, are you, at this point, able to discern patterns where organizations that are implementing this type of approach, are becoming more competitive, becoming more profitable, gaining share. Do we have enough evidence of that yet? >> Yes. Well, Gene, we were talking about Gene Kim earlier, and you can see, from a lot of the studies he has, that you'll see how much more effective and high-performance you're getting out of teams that are really embracing the best practices DevOps, and it is translating into financial results. So, you are seeing that bridge occur, but, part of what got me thinking about, is, what we were talking about earlier, the analytics that we've been exploring in the, in the team insights, and how the patterns you see, in how teams are interacting, and their code, and, you know, where are the core committers, the extended community, and extended community, the extended ring outside of that. You can begin to see patterns that are working well, patterns that are starting to have problems. It might actually be an architecture issue-- >> A self-healing concept too, if you think about it. This is actually taking it to like, social media has the same problem, on Twitter, runs with the same voice. You could have a zillion followers, and not have any influence, or have, you know, 100 followers and have a lot of influence, based on, that's no measure for that. You're getting at something that's more scoring-oriented, and analytical. That's interesting to me, I'm going to follow up on that, maybe another time. The question I want to ask you, 'cause I want to, I can't get it out of my mind, 'cause you mentioned the cloud-native, it's got me, kind of really, you know, riffing on this. We believe it's a multi-cloud world, right? And there's going to be a variety of clouds, not a winner take all, and they're all going to have differentiation, but having the traverse clouds is going to be really, really important. So, Kubernetes is kind of interesting to me, because you're looking at Kubernetes really kind of coming in and saying, hey, we could actually be a factor in orchestrating, and managing the sets of containers and micro services. And so, it's almost like a whole 'nother land-grab is going on around Kubernetes, because, it's so delicate. Can you share thoughts on that? Because, it's kind of nuanced, Kubernetes is, has got great traction in containers and micro services, but it's super-important. Why is it important, and why is it fragile, or is it fragile? In the sense of its importance, and not to be forked or tweaked. >> First, it's growing very rapidly. The use of containers for development and building, largely cloud-native micro service applications, is growing at a very rapid rate. And then, the ability to set-up these Kube clusters in different clouds, to be able to take advantage of the characteristics or services that are, are in those different clouds, including, you know, maybe you want to set-up a cluster near where your data is so you can have the processing local to that data, maybe you want to set-up clusters around certain security, or privacy, or regulatory policies. So, Kube is really providing, almost a platform-like layer for the containers, that is very robust. I wouldn't say it's fragile, but, with that flexibility, to setting that up, and where you want to setup that-- >> It allows customers to really figure out where to put workloads that matter. So, IoT would be a great use case for this. IoT, say, hey, you know what? This cloud is awesome at this and, put that app over there, and this one goes over here, 'cause it's got something over there that I like, but now, you need to have, I mean, is that kind of where, this is like, interoperability of networking in like, the 80s, in 90s, when that whole trend started booming is really its importance. >> Yes, yes-- >> Its openness. >> Well, the openness is critical. A lot of what we saw in distributed computing and the connectivity between clusters will be critical, but I do want to get to that point you mentioned on the openness; to me, openness is critical from a number of dimensions. One, certainly for inter-operability, and portability, but probably the most important is the rallying point for innovation, that you get these ecosystems, and with open technologies, which really is an open governance with open standards, you find a lot of creativity and innovation occurring within that base, and that, to me, is what really causes these environments to explode and take off. >> And if they can take that openness into the data level, then you're going to have a perfect storm of innovation, because now, you've got open source, which is thriving, and continues to be great, tier one by the way. >> And you're choosing to invest so much, and give back so much to the community. Not everybody does that, but you've made a business case for that. Why that strategy? I mean, it's IBM, you would think, you know, historically, IBM, very closed. But, you are almost overly-aggressive about your open source investments. >> Yeah. Not even sure it's historical, it dates back a long time, quite a while ago-- >> Yeah, that's true. >> Dave: You can go back, all the way to Linux. >> Yeah, Linux was the, they were the main player in Linux. >> You go back, obviously, the internet itself, TCP/IP, Linux, Java, Eclipse-- >> Track record's amazing. >> To me, all these industry breakthroughs, things that shape the industry are often, at its core, there were, at critical places, there was an open ecosystem, an open governance, open technology that really enabled it to just expand and grow at a tremendous rate. >> I think blockchain is perfect for you guys right now. A great example of, and in, might, people might be saying, oh, a little bit early, I think that bet is going to be playing out well. If you take the open source, and this whole digital value thing, very interesting. Well, I mean, final thought: what are you excited about right now? I mean, as an IBM Fellow, you get the canvas within the tech space, obviously, a lot to pull, it's kind of intoxicating these days. We kind of went down memory lane with some old ways, but, there's a ton of great new things happening. What are you excited about? I mean, what's getting you buzzed up about the current tech scene? >> The things that are really, I find fascinating and exciting now, is the different ways we're learning to apply AI, cognitive machine-learning into the different systems. We just, sort of, covering it just a little bit, in the DevOps space itself, but we're learning to apply it from the end of test, to understanding how we can predict where we have problematic code files, and how you would improve your test or skills, to the other spectrum of how is the community actually operating? Is the community healthy, is it growing? How are my projects and my teams working together? How healthy is that, are there issues that I have to start looking at? Do I have a design issue, an architecture issue, a squad issue? So, I can start doing that. This is all, we're learning how to take in big data and apply machine learning to this to get these types of insights. And to me, you know, that's just one spectrum of how we're applying it, but that's, to me, what's so exciting, is how we're applying it. You know, some of the examples that were shown with blockchain and cognitive, and in IoT, and AI. >> Dave is changing the game. The algorithms are coming out as more like libraries, not as custom stuff, and you've got the compute over the top. It's like, I wish I was 15 again, you know? What a great time to be in the tech industries, a computer scientist or any kind of science field right now. >> It is a great time. >> It's just a super time. Appreciate it, Dave, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Dave Lindquist, IBM Fellow, vice president of DevOps and the cloud at IBM, sharing his insight, great job. IBM's coverage continues here at day two, here on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us for our wrap after this short break. (percussive tones)

>> Voiceover: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube, covering Sapphire Now. Headline sponsored by SAP HANA Cloud, the leader in platform-as-a-service, with support from Consul, Inc, the Cloud internet company. Now here are your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Everyone, we are live in Orlando, Florida for a special presentation of theCube at SAP Sapphire Now's theCube SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from noise. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Peter Burris Want to give a shout out to our sponsors. Without them, we would not be here. SAP HANA Cloud Platform Console Inc, Capgemini and EMC, thanks for your support, really excited to be here. Wall-to-wall coverage, three days. Over forty videos going to be hitting YouTube: SiliconANGLE.com/youtube. Our next guest is Dan Lahl, VP of SAP HANA Cloud Platform Product Marketing, welcome to theCube, thanks for having us. >> Thank you, John. You got all that out without a stumble. That was fantastic. >> I memorize it. >> That's great. >> Without our sponsors, we wouldn't be here, thank you very much. Thanks to you, and it's a been great support from you and your team. Really appreciate it, welcome to theCube. >> Love being here. You guys have something very unique in how you bring a play-by-play but from an analyst's perspective, very, very unique. >> Someone called me Pat Summerall, and Peter, John Madden yesterday, which was a great compliment because our lives are ESPN of tech. >> And I like it because it means I'm the better looking one. >> Exactly. >> NFL Gameday, but the game is on. >> Peter: Who's a guy? >> John: Boom! (laughs) >> Boom the Cloud is here! >> It's the whiteboard. But all seriously, great conversation. One of the things that's emerging out of the whole HANA Cloud Platform Ecosystem play is that it's really buzzing, and it's not like sizzle, but it's steak on the grill as well. So, just a lot of meat on the bone and the thing that we're seeing is that SAP has been putting themselves out there with tech. And not trying to do the land grab, not saying, hey, we're SAP and this is all a marketing program to get more SAP share for our other stuff. There's clear separation between SAP stuff, whether it's, whatever the customers are buying, and then an open way for developers; both SAP developers and, now, mainstream developers, iOS and Apple so, huge shift. And the Ecosystem's super excited, so I got to ask you, how do you guys separate out the market? Explain to the folks out there how this all fits in because the HANA Cloud platform is more open, it's really non-SAP, in a way. And there's other clouds out there, and let's face it, you guys weren't getting the buzz. A little bit late to the party, and you've got the product in good position right now. But you got Amazon out there, as your Microsoft was here, you know, doing relationship with you, your partnering with Apple, IBM was on, Cisco, all the big guys are here working with you. Separate out what it means. >> So let me back up, let me back up and give you all the HANA buzzwords, we've been very confusing to the market on how we brand it to different HANA products. There's the HANA database, data managing platform, we came out with that in 2011; very similar to Oracle from SQL Interface standpoint, very different from a technology standpoint. All in memory, and everybody knows that by now. Then, we have another initiative called S/4HANA. That's taking all of the applications, putting them onto the HANA data management platform. So that's the app stack. So business suite is now S/4HANA. So data management was HANA, S/4HANA, app stack. Then we have something called the HANA Enterprise Cloud, and that's just basically a managed service. You want to take your landscape, give it to our data center, let us manage for you. >> For SAP stuff? >> SAP stuff. Yeah, not any of the red stuff or anybody else's apps but >> But some of the partner extensions? >> But some of the partner extensions, yes. And that has to be certified, but basically it's a managed service. So you want to give your data center over to SAP? Guarantee that it will run, we'll upgrade all of the apps and enhancement packs and that kind of thing. So that's HANA Enterprise Cloud. And then finally, HANA Cloud Platform is something different altogether. It really is our offer, open platform as a service. So, any of the applications that SAP is shipping today, whether that be business suite, S/4HANA, Success Factors, Ariba, Concur, Cloud for Customer, you name it, can be extended or integrated using HANA Cloud Platform. Okay, so HANA data management, HEC, the managed service, S/4HANA, the new app stack, HCP, really the extension platform for that SAP Ecosystem. Okay? Now I say that, it's an open platform. It's Java-based, can you believe it? It's not ABAP-based, it's Java-based. Node.js, all open systems. We announced at the show that we're shipping Cloud Foundry with Node.js runtimes scripting languages like Ruby and Python and PHP and Go. Databases like Mongo and Postgres and Redis, it's open systems, baby, right? >> All the tools that they are offering. >> Exactly, they can do that. Yeah. So, any programmer under 30, we can now approach and have a conversation with. They don't have to learn a German programming language, right? Now, whether it's good or bad, it doesn't make any difference, it's open systems, right? And so that's kind of the framework of what we announced. >> What's that mean to developers? Let's take that forward, okay, open cloud platform, okay, great, under 30, or, just open source is so good now all the Q&A, all the questions are on Stack Overflow and all these Node.js and technology out to be used, so that's what people want. Okay, what's the impact to me? I'm the developer. What does it mean? What's in it for me? Do I have access to all the SAP stuff? I'm used to dealing with all these different tools to put systems together. >> That's the beauty, John, is all of those tools that you use, as an open systems developer, you can now, through HANA Cloud Platform, get to the back end systems that we didn't expose before, expect through an ABAP stack. Right, you don't have to learn BAPIs, you don't have to learn ABAP. You can use your Java capabilities, using Eclipse if you want, if you want to do it on your desktop device, or use a web IDE that's Java-based, right? >> But you're exposing these through API? >> Exactly, exactly, through either APIs or through integration services, through a direct connect back to the back ends. And we not only expose data, but also processes as well, so you can take advantage of a process. One of the things we announced this week was the API Business Hub. So now, we're going to deliver a catalog of APIs, where we'll publish into and an open system developer can say Oh, what's with that management accounting services? That hooks back into S/4HANA, I just need to call the API and take advantage of those management accounting services. Very cool. >> So on the Apple relationship, which is an iOS-based thing, the developer can then go to the Enterprise customer, so this is the Ecosystem now, okay I'm a developer. I have a whitespace, I see some unique thing, a problem that my customer has, that I can solve, or I'm an entrepreneur and say Hey, you know, I have a unique idea, I want to solve that problem. I code it but I might rely on SAP data, say an ERP, I could tap that-- >> You can now tap it. >> John: And integrate it in seamlessly? >> Yes, and show it natively on an iOS device. That's what we're delivering through the ACP software development kit SDK. So you're an Apple developer today. Well, you could develop the next SnapChat or some consumer-to-consumer app. But interesting, the bulk of Apple devices or the bulk of devices in the Enterprise, are Apple devices. They're not Android devices. Apple's done some work on that, upwards of 75% are actually Apple devices. So now, you're a developer, you want to get access to all of those different applications that SAP has, delivered in beautiful 1990s master detail today. >> Let's face it, I mean, we had this comment on theCube which we concur with, the user experience of Enterprise software is dated, and old, and people are bringing their phones to work. >> That's really kind of you to say dated and old, okay? I would have said old and crappy, okay? >> No one wakes up and says, hey I can't wait to download my Enterprise app and use it on the weekend. It's like root canal, don't love it, but you need it. >> Part number 000743xp, okay so now they can get into all of those processes without having to know the back end process. Through the SDK, we're going to expose all of those. >> Share some data on some of the onboard. I know you had a lot of early adopters and now the program's ramping up. We've talked over the past year and you guys are tweaking the product. You want to make sure the product was solid, that was key. Might have been delayed a little bit, but the timing of the Apple announcement, perfect. But I can imagine that the developers are excited because certainly in the Ecosystem out there, in Silicon Valley and beyond, there's a softening, it's kind of a bubble bursting, if you will, on the consumer stuff, so there might not be a couple more unicorns. The few unicorns that come along at every cycle of innovation. But the Enterprise is hot, so the buzz on the street is the Enterprise is hot, that's where you make money. As everyone works for a revenue model, you got to break even, so, there's a big focus on that in the entrepreneurial ecosystem. So, is there an uptake that you can share or any stats on the kinds of new onboarding that you guys are doing. >> Yeah, so just this week, we also announced that IBM is taking all of their MobileFirsts for iOS applications. They're going to participate in the SDK and they're going to move all of their applications onto the HANA cloud platform. They had a beautiful UI that they built for a hundred little mobile apps that were enterprise ready, but not enterprise connected. So now they're going to connect all those hundred little apps like Find&Fix, and Parts Manager and that kind of thing. >> I can see the slogan now. Enterprise: Ready to Connect. >> Exactly. >> Connecting. >> It's pretty decent validation of some of the things we're talking about here. >> Exactly, and the HCP play in it, for SAP is that's the gearbox to get them back to all of the SAP apps. Whether they be On Premise business suite, On Premise S/4HANA, Workforce Management, with Success Factors and Fieldglass. It's the gearbox to get them back to all of those. >> So let me ask the question, you're in a private market so you've got your eye on the prize in the market, you're forward-facing, but also you've got to work with the product teams and deal with that. Do you see a window of opportunity right now? Because the timing of having the product ready with HANA Cloud Platform plus the Apple relationship and the IBM stuff, which is more validation, a window of opportunity, the wind is at your back. This window, you've got a short window to kind of go out and win. Are you worried about that? Are you guys investing heavily now, do you see now a time to throttle it up and pedal to medal, straight and narrow, 90 miles an hour? >> You know, I actually see it as the wave is forming. Okay, I don't think our customer base knows that much about HANA Cloud Platform, it really has its coming out party at TechWave, last October. It's now exposed to the business group. We had the techie outage, now its the business outing. I see the wave starting to form, okay? And we've got to catch the wave and we got to ride the crap out of it. And there's a lot of stuff on the product side we have to deliver. There's a lot more that we have to do for integrating into our existing systems. We have to provide more direct, not direct connections, we've already got that piece, but more integration with the processes. We're not all the way there yet. So we have to push our product, our product management and engineering teams to do that. And that's not always easy at a big company like SAP that has all these different divisions building processes. And then the other hard part is, you got to make sure our sales reps are introducing us into every single customer account as a gearbox, as the agility platform. So that's starting to happen. So I wouldn't even say we're on the wave yet. We're starting to catch the wave. >> So let me build on that. I have two questions. I don't want to say they're quick. But here's the first one, here's what our CIO clients are telling us. One of the advantages of everything you said, platform, a lot of entry points, means that their business can pick their own road map for how they go to S/4HANA, as opposed to having single one-way, and that's the only way in, that'll extend the adoption cycle. Do you see that being a positive thing ultimately for not only SAP, in getting this message, and getting this product out, but also all the partners and the Ecosystem to drive this whole thing forward? >> Let me answer the customer part of that first. The way we have set up S/4 and HCP, is S/4 is the core that you really don't want to touch that much, you don't want to customize that much, you don't want to extend, you do that in HCP. Why would you want to do that? Well, as we deliver new enhancement packs, and we're delivering every couple of quarters, on the S/4 platform. Every time you do a customization inside the app, when you have to upgrade, you have to do regression tests, you got to check to customizations against the new rev. It becomes, in technical terms, a hairball. It becomes a huge hairball. Take that off the plate, just do it on HANA Cloud Platform. And so that's the customer angle to it, the partner angle to it is very simple, and it's a win-win for partners and for us. They can, and for customers as well, they can build a little app on the platform, snap it into S/4, Success Factor, and make it look like an app that's part of our SAS application, okay? The customer doesn't have to provision anything. The customer takes a tile and puts it on their Success Factor application. We win, because they're consuming it on HCP, so we're monetizing that too. So the partner has an easy path, the customer gets something easy, we help monetize on that. >> It's a great story and a lot of folks are looking forward, so for example, some of our clients are telling us, We are looking at the S/4platform, the S/4HANA platform, we came to it through analytics. So here's an interesting question Dan, you've got a lot of background in database. So the old way of thinking about building a database application is you didn't want to write an application required more than 80, 90, 100 disk I/Os. >> Yeah. Now we're talking about in-memory databases, calmative organization, provide any number of different straight-forward, common interfaces from a few standpoints back to the application. We're talkin' about what used to be or the equivalent of tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of I/Os. What does that mean to the types of applications that we're going to be able to build in the Ecosystem over the course of the next few years. >> So you're right in that all data's immediately available in-memory ready to go. But here's the cool thing that I think you were getting at. You can build a structure one time, you build a table structure one time. On top of that, you just build views, logical views. And then your queries or your application looks at the logical view. Now logical views aren't somethin' new. It was just horrible to do it on a disk-based databse. >> Yep, very digital. >> You have to do tons of optimizations. In a memory database, it doesn't matter. It's all there. You just look at the logical view. So we're going to see people stacking up more and more and more logical views. Specifically in the analytics case, we see that all the time. From a partner standpoint, they're going to build their table structure, and then mix and match different application types using logical views. And you know, in HANA, we provide calc views and attribute views. So even better ways to do that. >> But the bottom line is the way you get to that ability to take a tile and drop it into a system and add that functionality, is because that underlying platform can support that view in an almost unlimited way. >> Exactly, whether the data is in HANA in the Cloud, or whether the data is still on premise through a direct connection back in the existing HANA system on premise. >> Of course unstructured data complicates the database equation, but also they have to coexist with the schemas and the structured databases out there. Has that thrown a curve ball at you guys at all? Or not a problem at all with HANA? >> So you know we've got an answer for that with Vora. I don't know if you've talked to any of the Vora folks, but you know what Vora brings to the party is it brings in-memory capabilities. It's an in-memory indexer for dup data. So instead of pointing your sequel query or building a MapReduce or using Hive or one of those technologies-- >> Or data lakes-- >> Or whatever, you just point it at Vora, and it's already indexed in memory. So our plan and our hope is that soon Vora will be on the HANA Cloud Platform. So that's just another piece of technology-- >> Peter: Way of generating a view. >> It's another service that we provide for generating a view on top of the dup data. >> Yeah, that's key. So talk about the Ecosystem innovation. Because one of the things I loved in McDermott's opening keynote, and I love the term, business model innovation. 'Cause that just really speaks to a whole new level of innovation. Usually it's tech innovation. >> Yeah. >> You get destructive enablers, platforms. At the end of the day, the application of the tools and platforms, however they're developed, by whomever, impact something. That's the business. That's the revenue. These new processes that are emerging. IoT is a great example. It's kind of an unknown process. It's hard to automate that workflow because it's evolving in real time. What innovations can you point to that you see, and that SAP sees as key mile markers, if you will, that shows that these things are being innovated on the business model side with the Ecosystem? >> Yeah, I'll give you two examples, one that's kind of just a speed up. And then I'll give you one that's a business model. So Hamburg Port Authority is the Port Authority for Hamburg, the second largest port in Europe. For them to keep up with the competition, they're going to have to double and triple in the next 15 years, the amount of goods going through their port. They have nowhere to build out. They cannot make their port bigger. It's surrounded by a city. There's nowhere for them to go. So they're using HANA Cloud Platform to basically create a grid. They're creating a utility or a cell network grid of all the containers that are sensorized, all of the trucks that have telematics information in the trucks. And they're also bringing in traffic information so that when the container comes in, they can bring the exact truck in that needs to get it in the right path into the port. If you think about that, that's a cellular network. And that's what they built using HANA Cloud Platform. So it's a semi-change in business model for the technology-- >> So minutes matter to them. >> Seconds matter to them, literally. The faster they can match up the container with the truck that's going to move that container, the better off they are. >> They got to clear the inventory. Sounds like a business problem. >> Exactly, exactly right? And think about it, they're probably going to sensorize the ships as well. They're going to stage those guys coming in over time. >> John: What's the other example? >> The other example is really interesting. This small company in Germany that builds forklifts, There can be nothing more pedantic than a forklift. It picks up a pallet, it moves the pallet, it puts it down. So here's what this company's done. It's called Still Forklifts. They are using HANA Cloud Platform to match up their order system, which is an SAP with the forklifts that are sensorized on HANA Cloud Platform so that the order system will send the order to get picked by the forklift. And the forklift and the order system have the maps of where everything is in the warehouse. >> The client's order system. >> The client's order system. And they've also now, they haven't done it yet, but they're working on a forklift to forklift integration so that if this guy's over in this part of the warehouse he has to pick something up over here. This forklift is over here. They meet in the middle. Trade some product, get it out to the docking station. >> So the forklift is an IoT device to the order system. And it opens up the possibility of greater automation within the warehouse floor. >> And they've changed their business model. They're no longer selling forklifts. They're selling pounds of goods moved within the warehouse. From in the warehouse to shipped. And they're billing on a monthly basis based on pounds of goods shipped. They're not selling forklifts anymore. That is pretty cool. >> So that's a complete shift. >> That's a business model shift. >> It's an outcome shift. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> They're selling the outcome. >> Exactly, exactly. And they had to think differently about their business. They had to think, we are not a forklift operator. We're a goods mover operator. >> Or to your business model, we were a forklift operator. Now we're a goods mover, an in-warehouse goods mover. >> Exactly, exactly. >> That's a great example and also a huge innovation. Because now, as the keynotes were saying, people are afraid to go out of business. And so the opportunity for the Ecosystem is, put one of those guys at check. They'll get the check. If they don't move, you take their territory. >> Exactly. >> So it's a nice cycle, SAP wins on both sides. >> On both sides, yeah, very cool. >> All right Dan, I got to ask you the question. Plans for this year, you got the Apple. You got the Cloud Platform. You have all this goodness goin' on. What's the plans for the year. Give us a taste of some of the things that you want to achieve this year, out in the market. And what KPIs are you looking at-- >> Yeah, what are we going to be talking about this time next year? >> I think we're going to be talking about what did you guys do in the area of Cloud Foundry. Have you guys really delivered on your Cloud Foundry promise of going opensource and moving toward portability? So next year, if we're fortunate enough to speak again, That's what I want you to ask me. Where are you guys on delivering Cloud Foundry? Pushing opensource, open development for developers even further as we talked at the outset of the interview. And then secondly, where are we on the API business hub? What is SAP doing to expose the thousands of business services that we have to our customers? To be able to use the HANA Cloud Platform with a catalog of business services that we're exposing to help them extend or modify or build that new application. >> And new onboarding numbers, having numbers showing both. >> That's right. Now what that means from a revenue standpoint, it means, you know we got to double or triple our business next year. We're not talkin' a 10%, 15% growth. We're talking an order of magnitude growth for our part of the business. >> And so you'll be investing more in marketing, training, tools. >> All of the above, all of the above. >> Hey, companies want to get into the enterprise, and the existing enterprise suppliers want to stay in the enterprise. >> Exactly, exactly. >> John: So it's a good time to be an arms dealer. >> Exactly, and we'll supply it with the HANA Cloud Platform. >> John: Dan, thanks so much for sharing your insight here on theCube. Really appreciate it, and great to meet your team. >> As well. >> And everyone here has been fantastic. We are live, here in Orlando. The theme is live, here at SAP this year. And of course we got the live coverage from theCube. This is theCube, I'm John Furrier, with Peter Burris. We'll be right back. You're watchin' theCube. (soft electronic music)