>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation. And its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Copenhagen Denmark this is KubeCon 2018 Europe, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jewell, he's the CEO of WSO2 with some big news, they're introducing a new programming language called Ballerina. Welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us! >> Hey thank you for having me. >> So you're now the new CEO of WSO2, couple months almost a year. You guys have big news introducing a new programming language called Ballerina here. Tell us a bit about what this is. What's the big story? >> Well Ballerina is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESB's are not agile, and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple, and agile. >> So take a step back how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is, and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details, and how long have you been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. >> Well WS02 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers, and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world. And all of our technology is open-source. Now we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world, and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long in advance, it requires huge teams, and there's no decentralization of the work. And we need to make integration agile again. And in order to do that we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done. And we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. >> It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been all imagined. Another waterfall project again coming back, again and again repeating it, with Cloud the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows, and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is is speed is it the tech demand for applications, what's the key? >> I think that what we're seeing is, really sophisticated and complex demand coming from kind-cuser consumers. Companies like Uber Slack and Amazon have witnessed this. And in order to scale to meet this complex demand, these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are tenexing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture, you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints. There are 50 billion right now. The forecasts are that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. >> Totally right I was just going to say glue layer, but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now, the CloudNative Foundation. Pretty massive growth, look at the logosly he sponsors. Just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand, but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers, where with open-source it's about really taking pre-existing code, and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security, these are all operating system kind of questions. >> Well I think also it's open right? I mean that is part of the key here, it's the fact that it's open-source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open-source perspective, is that right? >> Yeah we are the seventh largest open-source company, all the software that we publish is Apache License, and we found a way to monetize open-source without having to play open core games, where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations, where are developers gravitating to these days? That's always a question people always look at after the fact, they just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? >> Well first, we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open-source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary, but now they have program offices dedicated to open-source, and it encourages onboarding, adoption and giving back to open-source projects, so that trend is still significant. And as a result there's a lot of open-source foundations and non-profits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation, and all of its sub-organizations that are there, and we've also seen a resurgence in other open-source foundations like the Eclipse foundation as well. >> Lauren and I were talking about the opening about Kubernetes and that, outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or the industry, you go to a standard enterprise. Waterfall moving to agile, Kubernetes is new. >> Tyler: Yeah. >> So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises, and how should people think about the big movement to CloudNative, with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? >> I think that the momentum around Kubernetes, particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it, means that we have a de facto standard for a run-time platform that can engage both operations and development. And in the first time over the past 20 years, we do not have a fragmented market anymore. And when you don't have a fragmented market, the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically, and I think that's why we so many vendors here, and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. >> It's super awesome. What do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization? With the standardization people can rally around it. >> Yeah. >> Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? >> I think that the next level of work here is, this is the year of the service mesh. And really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations, and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up, and that's where the standardization is going to go next. >> And certainly containers are great. How about security what's your view on security? Because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google's got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked is it being baked out? What's new what's your view on security? >> I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings the spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world, but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked-on, add-on thing that's applied to your applications, and instead we actually need to look at programming languages in the apps that you write, as being security proof from the very beginning. And that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well >> How is Ballerina handling that? Are they doing it up front? >> Well our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted. And that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion and tax on that, and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tag. >> Yeah assume the worst, hope for the best right? >> How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform this is a different programming language, talk a little bit about that. >> This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long. And you and I both started our careers 20 years ago in developer evangelism Lauren right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it, that's how you do it. >> What's the state of the language now shipping? Is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan how are you going to roll this thing out? >> It is shipping now, we just hit our .970 release we've been at it for 3 years, we've got a hundred committers on the project, but we just went public this week with Ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks, and we hope to get to a Juanado language lock by the end of this year, and then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2 our company will offer commercial support, and have it in use and production with our customer accounts >> And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe what's the feedback, what are you hearing? >> The vibe is hot right? It's a new programming language, it's got an awesome logo associated with this, but more importantly the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours, and developers love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. >> For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe, that didn't make the trip from the US or are watching remote, What's the big takeaway in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes what's the takeaway? >> I think that the big takeaway is that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that, and that the ecosystem is ready to support you, and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. >> And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant? >> Ridiculous. >> Yeah cool. (laughter) Tyler thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it! >> Lauren: Thank you. >> Utterly my pleasure thank you for having me. >> Hey live coverage here in Denmark, we're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> As you may recall, coming into the second part of 2019 we reported, based on ETR Survey data, that there was a narrowing of spending on emerging tech and an unplugging of a lot of legacy systems. This was really because people were going from experimentation into operationalizing their digital initiatives. When COVID hit, conventional wisdom suggested that there would be a flight to safety. Now, interestingly, we reported with Eric Bradley, based on one of the Venns, that a lot of CIOs were still experimenting with emerging vendors. But this was very anecdotal. Today, we have more data, fresh data, from the ETR Emerging Technology Study on private companies, which really does suggest that there's a notable decline in experimentation, and that's affecting emerging technology vendors. Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Once again, Sagar Kadakia is joining us. Sagar is the Director of Research at ETR. Sagar, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you again. Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So, it's really important to point out, this Emerging Tech Study that you guys do, it's different from your quarterly Technology Spending Intention Survey. Take us through the methodology. Guys, maybe you could bring up the first chart. And, Sagar, walk us through how you guys approach this. >> No problem. So, a lot of the viewers are used to seeing a lot of the results from the Technology Spending Intention Survey, or the TSIS, as we call it. That study, as the title says, it really tracks spending intentions on more pervasive vendors, right, Microsoft, AWS, as an example. What we're going to look at today is our Emerging Technology Study, which we conduct biannually, in May and November. This study is a little bit different. We ask CIOs around evaluations, awareness, planned evaluations, so think of this as pre-spend, right. So that's a major differentiator from the TSIS. That, and this study, really focuses on private emerging providers. We're really only focused on those really emerging private companies, say, like your Series B to Series G or H, whatever it may be, so, two big differences within those studies. And then today what we're really going to look at is the results from the Emerging Technology Study. Just a couple of quick things here. We had 811 CIOs participate, which represents about 380 billion in annual IT spend, so the results from this study matter. We had almost 75 Fortune 100s take it. So, again, we're really measuring how private emerging providers are doing in the largest organizations. And so today we're going to be reviewing notable sectors, but largely this survey tracks roughly 356 private technologies and frameworks. >> All right, guys, bring up the pie chart, the next slide. Now, Sagar, this is sort of a snapshot here, and it basically says that 44% of CIOs agree that COVID has decreased the organization's evaluation and utilization of emerging tech, despite what I mentioned, Eric Bradley's Venn, which suggested one CIO in particular said, "Hey, I always pick somebody in the lower left "of the magic quadrant." But, again, this is a static view. I know we have some other data, but take us through this, and how this compares to other surveys that you've done. >> No problem. So let's start with the high level takeaways. And I'll actually kind of get into to the point that Eric was debating, 'cause that point is true. It's just really how you kind of slice and dice the data to get to that. So, what you're looking at here, and what the overall takeaway from the Emerging Technology Study was, is, you know, you are going to see notable declines in POCs, of proof-of-concepts, any valuations because of COVID-19. Even though we had been communicating for quite some time, you know, the last few months, that there's increasing pressure for companies to further digitize with COVID-19, there are IT budget constraints. There is a huge pivot in IT resources towards supporting remote employees, a decrease in risk tolerance, and so that's why what you're seeing here is a rather notable number of CIOs, 44%, that said that they are decreasing their organization's evaluation and utilization of private emerging providers. So that is notable. >> Now, as you pointed out, you guys run this survey a couple of times a year. So now let's look at the time series. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. We can see how the sentiment has changed since last year. And, of course, we're isolating here on some of larger companies. So, take us through what this data means. >> No problem. So, how do we quantify what we just saw in the prior slide? We saw 44% of CIOs indicating that they are going to be decreasing their evaluations. But what exactly does that mean? We can pretty much determine that by looking at a lot of the data that we captured through our Emerging Technology Study. There's a lot going on in this slide, but I'll walk you through it. What you're looking at here is Fortune 1000 organizations, so we've really isolated the data to those organizations that matter. So, let's start with the teal, kind of green line first, because I think it's a little bit easier to understand. What you're looking at, Fortune 1000 evaluations, both planned and current, okay? And you're looking at a time series, one year ago and six months ago. So, two of the answer options that we provide CIOs in this survey, right, think about the survey as a grid, where you have seven answer options going horizontally, and then 300-plus vendors and technologies going vertically. For any given vendor, they can essentially indicate one of these options, two of them being on currently evaluating them or I plan to evaluate them in six months. So what you're looking at here is effectively the aggregate number, or the average number of Fortune 1000 evaluations. So if you look into May 2019, all the way on the left of that chart, that 24% roughly means that a quarter of selections made by Fortune 1000 of the survey, they selected plan to evaluate or currently evaluating. If you fast-forward six months, to the middle of the chart, November '19, it's roughly the same, one in four technologies that are Fortune 1000 selected, they indicated that I plan or am currently evaluating them. But now look at that big drop off going into May 2020, the 17%, right? So now one out of every six technologies, or one out of every selections that they made was an evaluation. So a very notable drop. And then if you look at the blue line, this is another answer option that we provided CIOs: I'm aware of the technology but I have no plans to evaluate. So this answer option essentially tracks awareness levels. If you look at the last six months, look at that big uptick from 44% to over 50%, right? So now, essentially one out of every two technologies, or private technologies that a CIO is aware of, they have no plans to evaluate. So this is going to have an impact on the general landscape, when we think about those private emerging providers. But there is one caveat, and, Dave, this is what you mentioned earlier, this is what Eric was talking about. The providers that are doing well are the ones that are work-from-home aligned. And so, just like a few years ago, we were really analyzing results based on are you cloud-native or are you Cloud-aligned, because those technologies are going to do the best, what we're seeing in the emerging space is now the same thing. Those emerging providers that enable organizations to maintain productivity for their employees, essentially allowing their employees to work remotely, those emerging providers are still doing well. And that is probably the second biggest takeaway from this study. >> So now what we're seeing here is this flight to perceive safety, which, to your point, Sagar, doesn't necessarily mean good news for all enterprise tech vendors, but certainly for those that are positioned for the work-from-home pivot. So now let's take a look at a couple of sectors. We'll start with information security. We've reported for years about how the perimeter's been broken down, and that more spend was going to shift from inside the moat to a distributed network, and that's clearly what's happened as a result of COVID. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. Sagar, you take us through this. >> No problem. And as you imagine, I think that the big theme here is zero trust. So, a couple of things here. And let me just explain this chart a little bit, because we're going to be going through a couple of these. What you're seeing on the X-axis here, is this is effectively what we're classifying as near term growth opportunity from all customers. The way we measure that effectively is we look at all the evaluations, current evaluations, planned evaluations, we look at people who are evaluated and plan to utilize these vendors. The more indications you get on that the more to the top right you're going to be. The more indications you get around I'm aware of but I don't plan to evaluate, or I'm replacing this early-stage vendor, the further down and on the left you're going to be. So, on the X-axis you have near term growth opportunity from all customers, and on the Y-axis you have near term growth opportunity from, really, the biggest shops in the world, your Global 2000, your Forbes Private 225, like Cargill, as an example, and then, of course, your federal agencies. So you really want to be positioned up and to the right here. So, the big takeaway here is zero trust. So, just a couple of things on this slide when we think about zero trust. As organizations accelerate their Cloud and Saas spend because of COVID-19, and, you know, what we were talking about earlier, Dave, remote work becomes the new normal, that perimeter security approach is losing appeal, because the perimeter's less defined, right? Apps and data are increasingly being stored in the Cloud. That, and employees are working remotely from everywhere, and they're accessing all of these items. And so what we're seeing now is a big move into zero trust. So, if we look at that chart again, what you're going to see in that upper right quadrant are a lot of identity and access management players. And look at the bifurcation in general. This is what we were talking about earlier in terms of the landscape not doing well. Most security vendors are in that red area, you know, in the middle to the bottom. But if you look at the top right, what are you seeing here? Unify ID, Auth0, WSO2, right, all identity and access management players. These are critical in your zero trust approach, and this is one of the few area where we are seeing upticks. You also see here BitSight, Lucideus. So that's going to be security assessment. You're seeing VECTRA and Netskope and Darktrace, and a few others here. And Cloud Security and IDPS, Intrusion Detection and Prevention System. So, very few sectors are seeing an uptick, very few security sectors actually look pretty good, based on opportunities that are coming. But, essentially, all of them are in that work-from-home aligned security stack, so to speak. >> Right, and of course, as we know, as we've been reporting, buyers have options, from both established companies and these emerging companies that are public, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler. We've seen the work-from-home pivot benefit those guys, but even Palo Alto Networks, even CISCO, I asked (other speaker drowns out speech) last week, I said, "Hey, what about this pivot to work from home? "What about this zero trust?" And he said, "Look, the reality is, yes, "a big part of our portfolio is exposed "to that traditional infrastructure, "but we have options for zero trust as well." So, from a buyer's standpoint, that perceived flight to safety, you have a lot of established vendors, and that clearly is showing up in your data. Now, the other sector that we want to talk about is database. We've been reporting a lot on database, data warehouse. So, why don't you take us through the next graphic here, if you would. >> Sagar: No problem. So, our theme here is that Snowflake is really separating itself from the pack, and, again, you can see that here. Private database and data warehousing vendors really continue to impact a lot of their public peers, and Snowflake is leading the way. We expect Snowflake to gain momentum in the next few years. And, look, there's some rumors that IPOing soon. And so when we think about that set-up, we like it, because as organizations transition away from hybrid Cloud architectures to 100% or near-100% public Cloud, Snowflake is really going to benefit. So they look good, their data stacks look pretty good, right, that's resiliency, redundancy across data centers. So we kind of like them as well. Redis Labs bring a DB and they look pretty good here on the opportunity side, but we are seeing a little bit of churn, so I think probably Snowflake and DataStax are probably our two favorites here. And again, when you think about Snowflake, we continue to think more pervasive vendors, like Paradata and Cloudera, and some of the other larger database firms, they're going to continue seeing wallet and market share losses due to some of these emerging providers. >> Yeah. If you could just keep that slide up for a second, I would point out, in many ways Snowflake is kind of a safer bet, you know, we talk about flight to safety, because they're well-funded, they're established. You can go from zero to Snowflake very quickly, that's sort of their mantra, if you will. But I want to point out and recognize that it is somewhat oranges and tangerines here, Snowflake being an analytical database. You take MariaDB, for instance, I look at that, anyway, as relational and operational. And then you mentioned DataStax. I would say Couchbase, Redis Labs, Aerospike. Cockroach is really a... EValue Store. You've got some non-relational databases in there. But we're looking at the entire sector of databases, which has become a really interesting market. But again, some of those established players are going to do very well, and I would put Snowflake on that cusp. As you pointed out, Bloomberg broke the story, I think last week, that they were contemplating an IPO, which we've known for a while. >> Yeah. And just one last thing on that. We do like some of the more pervasive players, right. Obviously, AWS, all their products, Redshift and DynamoDB. Microsoft looks really good. It's just really some of the other legacy ones, like the Teradatas, the Oracles, the Hadoops, right, that we are going to be impacted. And so the claw providers look really good. >> So, the last decade has really brought forth this whole notion of DevOps, infrastructure as code, the whole API economy. And that's the piece we want to jump into now. And there are some real stand-outs here, you know, despite the early data that we showed you, where CIOs are less prone to look at emerging vendors. There are some, for instance, if you bring up the next chart, guys, like Hashi, that really are standing out, aren't they? >> That's right, Dave. So, again, what you're seeing here is you're seeing that bifurcation that we were talking about earlier. There are a lot of infrastructure software vendors that are not positioned well, but if you look at the ones at the top right that are positioned well... We have two kind of things on here, starting with infrastructure automation. We think a winner here is emerging with Terraform. Look all the way up to the right, how well-positioned they are, how many opportunities they're getting. And for the second straight survey now, Terraform is leading along their peers, Chef, Puppet, SaltStack. And they're leading their peers in so many different categories, notably on allocating more spend, which is obviously very important. For Chef, Puppet and SaltStack, which you can see a little bit below, probably a little bit higher than the middle, we are seeing some elevator churn levels. And so, really, Terraform looks like they're kind of separating themselves. And we've got this great quote from the CIO just a few months ago, on why Terraform is likely pulling away, and I'll read it out here quickly. "The Terraform tool creates "an entire infrastructure in a box. "Unlike vendors that use procedural languages, "like Ants, Bull and Chef, "it will show you the infrastructure "in the way you want it to be. "You don't have to worry about "the things that happen underneath." I know some companies where you can put your entire Amazon infrastructure through Terraform. If Amazon disappears, if your availability drops, load balancers, RDS, everything, you just run Terraform and everything will be created in 10 to 15 minutes. So that shows you the power of Terraform and why we think it's ranked better than some of the other vendors. >> Yeah, I think that really does sum it up. And, actually, guys, if you don't mind bringing that chart back up again. So, a point out, so, Mitchell Hashimoto, Hashi, really, I believe I'm correct, talking to Stu about this a little bit, he sort of led the Terraform project, which is an Open Source project, and, to your point, very easy to deploy. Chef, Puppet, Salt, they were largely disrupted by Cloud, because they're designed to automate deployment largely on-prem and DevOps, and now Terraform sort of packages everything up into a platform. So, Hashi actually makes money, and you'll see it on this slide, and things, Vault, which is kind of their security play. You see GitLab on here. That's really application tooling to deploy code. You see Docker containers, you know, Docker, really all about open source, and they've had great adoption, Docker's challenge has always been monetization. You see Turbonomic on here, which is application resource management. You can't go too deep on these things, but it's pretty deep within this sector. But we are comparing different types of companies, but just to give you a sense as to where the momentum is. All right, let's wrap here. So maybe some final thoughts, Sagar, on the Emerging Technology Study, and then what we can expect in the coming month here, on the update in the Technology Spending Intention Study, please. >> Yeah, no problem. One last thing on the zero trust side that has been a big issue that we didn't get to cover, is VPN spend. Our data is pointing that, yes, even though VPN spend did increase the last few months because of remote work, we actually think that people are going to move away from that as they move onto zero trust. So just one last point on that, just in terms of overall thoughts, you know, again, as we cover it, you can see how bifurcated all these spaces are. Really, if we were to go sector by sector by sector, right, storage and block chain and MLAI and all that stuff, you would see there's a few or maybe one or two vendors doing well, and the majority of vendors are not seeing as many opportunities. And so, again, are you work-from-home aligned? Are you the best vendor of all the other emerging providers? And if you fit those two criteria then you will continue seeing POCs and evaluations. And if you don't fit that criteria, unfortunately, you're going to see less opportunities. So think that's really the big takeaway on that. And then, just in terms of next steps, we're already transitioning now to our next Technology Spending Intention Survey. That launched last week. And so, again, we're going to start getting a feel for how CIOs are spending in 2H-20, right, so, for the back half of the year. And our question changes a little bit. We ask them, "How do you plan on spending in the back half year "versus how you actually spent "in the first half of the year, or 1H-20?" So, we're kind of, tighten the screw, so to speak, and really getting an idea of what's spend going to look like in the back half, and we're also going to get some updates as it relates to budget impacts from COVID-19, as well as how vendor-relationships have changed, as well as business impacts, like layoffs and furloughs, and all that stuff. So we have a tremendous amount of data that's going to be coming in the next few weeks, and it should really prepare us for what to see over the summer and into the fall. >> Yeah, very excited, Sagar, to see that. I just wanted to double down on what you said about changes in networking. We've reported with you guys on NPLS networks, shifting to SD-WAN. But even VPN and SD-WAN are being called into question as the internet becomes the new private network. And so lots of changes there. And again, very excited to see updated data, return of post-COVID, as we exit this isolation economy. Really want to point out to folks that this is not a snapshot survey, right? This is an ongoing exercise that ETR runs, and grateful for our partnership with you guys. Check out ETR.plus, that's the ETR website. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. Sagar, thanks so much for coming on. Once again, great to have you. >> Thank you so much, for having me, Dave. I really appreciate it, as always. >> And thank you for watching this episode of theCube Insights, powered by ETR. This Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Dockercon live 2020. Brought to you by, Docker, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon 2020, #DockerCon20. This is The Cube virtual coverage with Docker on their event here. And we're in the studio in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE, we're here with a great guest to talk about Docker Desktop, the Microsoft relationship, and the key news that's coming out. Ben De St Paer-Gotch is the product manager for Docker Desktop. Ben, great for coming on, thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it. >> So obviously, this is a virtual conference, we wish we could be in person, but given the state of affairs we're going to do remotely, but the momentum Docker has is phenomenal, it's always been great with containers. It's the number one downloaded app around for developers. Microsoft just had their Build conference, which was again virtual as well, or digital, as they say, it's interchangeable. But clear momentum now with Docker as containers actually is the standard, you guys are doing great. What's the key news out of the Microsoft world for people who missed it last week with MS Build? >> Yeah, so last year at Build, Microsoft announced WSO2 to the Windows subsystem with Linux two. (mumbles) The mapping between the windows (mumbles) Which, went really well but it just didn't provide the same centered needed Linux experience. Last year, they announced Windows subsystem Linux two, (Provides an actual Linux one on windows machine, and we've been working hard with Microsoft over the last year to integrate proper desktop as a main desktop application for working with containers with WSO2. A build this year, Microsoft has gone on and announced that WSO2 is going to have a few new features, and it's going to have new features. (mumbles) Mention Linux graphical, Linux applications, you can access the file system, the installation is going to become a slicker which I guess I'm the most excited about that pitch. But the most exciting announcement is, they will be bringing GPU support to WSO2 which means that we will be able to provide and give you support through Docker desktop or container workloads that peoples are working on. And now we're launching Gray and Agua through containers and docks and desktops and Windows which is really cool because we haven't been able to do that before. >> So is this the first GPU support on Microsoft Windows for Docker, with Docker? >> It's, yeah, it's the first GPU Support for Docker Desktop or Mac or Windows. So, previously the hypervisor hasn't passed through the GPU, pretty much, which meant that we couldn't access it from Docker desktop. So Docker desktop isn't about a lightweight VM we sorts of plumb all that in for you. But we're limited about what we could get access to from the hypervisor, Microsoft putting this through and giving us access for the first time, we can actually, we can go. >> Not to go on a side tangent here, but you know, all these virtual events, and I was watching some of the build stuff as well, as well as us immediate streamers and doing stuff, you can see people's home rigs. And you talk to any Developer, video streamer, or anyone who is working remotely, if you don't have the best GPU's in there, I mean, this has just become, I mean, quite frankly, you need the GPU's. So this is important, it's not only from a vanity standpoint performance. Having that support, I'm going to want the best GPU's, I'm always going to be upgrading my machine for that extra power. What's the impact? What does it mean for me as a Developer? Does it increase stuff? What's the bottom line? >> As a Developer, it means you actually have access to it. So, especially when you're doing workloads on the CPU, you've got minimum amounts of power utilization you can do. When you're running workloads for an L Development, you have a lot of power up process you've got to log, to do your mobile training. So, in an element cycle, you're likely to have your application which you're going to use to produce a modeling, you're going to have training data. Taking that training data and producing a model requires lots of panel processing which is an enormous calculations in producing with finer waitings. Doing that on a CPU has to be done on a serial fashion rather than parallel, which is huge and intensive and takes a really long time. Whereas on a GPU, you can do all of that in parallel which massively reduces the amount of time it will take to run those training functions. Either just straight up in Linux or running them in a container, which as the more of people are looking at running container with workloads, it's how I first, the first team that I was on actually used Docker. I was working in Amazon Alexa, and my team picked up the opportunity to run our workload in container. And that was my first experience, so even though my team backed down, so I could see the system. >> Yeah, ML workloads automations could be critical of that performance. Okay, let's get into some of the momentum with Microsoft, you guys have obviously, builds over, we're here now at DockerCon, there's news. Could you share some of the tidbits for what's being talked about now with Docker and DockerCon. >> Yeah, absolutely, so, along with everything else we've been doing, we've been partnering with Microsoft trying to make the best experience generally with Docker desktop, and with WSO2 and with the VSCO. I've been working closely with Microsoft guys to actually try and improve our experience in Windows as it is today, and to improve some of those integrations with VSCO, and also working with the VSCO team on the Docker plugin for VSCO to give our feedback, and to hear feedback from those guys on the errors and issues they're seeing with Docker desktop and to really try to produce the best experience we can on Windows. End to end, from very front end running all the way through that first push, that first run on the cloud using Docker. >> So what is some of the new product management processes and customer support things that you guys are doing? This comes up a lot, obviously, we had a great conversation around shift left with security. That's great news there. You start to see a lot of this added value for Developers, wanted their support right? So how do I get things I need, and from a customer standpoint? It's kind of a moving train this world and it's only getting better and better from a Developer standpoint. But there's more complexity, it's got to be abstract the way you've got, you know, this new abstraction layers developing. You've got a lot of automation. How does the customer get the support they need in the same agile way that Developers are cranking out code? >> It's a really good question, it's something I think we're still working on as well. So, we're trying to working out and one of the big things I'm trying to work out is, how to make it easier for people to get started with Docker, and how do we also make sure with the things we build, we don't leave a cliff edge instead of a lining path. You don't get to a certain point in an easy process, and then the next step, takes you straight off a cliff, so that's not useful for anyone. So, producing those parts and those ways for people to learn and actually progress is something we're really trying to work out. How to make it natural from the first experience all the way through. From an actual support perspective, the other thing we're looking at, is we're trying to do more things in the open. We're really trying at Docker to bring as many of the new features and pieces we're developing which we have to do that in the open with community visibility, so that if people really want it fixed, they can open the PR and they can help us out. And then the last thing that my team really stood out was our Docker of having actions. As creators, someone already finished, could you do this? Someone else had a PR and emerged it. So, to a certain extent, you've got your one side which had you on board and this ever growth spiral and you keep learning. The other side is how'd you fix the board when you find an issue? In that one, we're really trying to work with the community, a lot more than we have in the last couple of years. >> Awesome, some folks watching, hit him up on Twitter, he's the Product Manager for Docker Desktop among other things. You guys are very transparent, you've got your Twitter handle on the lower third. People can chime in or just jump on the chat, we'll follow up and get you the info. Final question for you Ben, as you look at this reality we're in, there's kind of a holistic kind of moment now where people kind of realizing the new realities here. You're looking at the.. you get the keys to the kingdom with Docker Desktop, okay. You got some momentum with Microsoft, the developer role is moving fast and fast as the head room increases for capabilities with automation. And I know you mentioned a few of those things. GPU is now available. What's the future look like for these Developers? The next short, medium and long term? What's your view as you look out over the landscape because you've got to look at the product roadmap, your engagement with the community. Can you share some insight into how you're thinking about Docker Desktop going forward? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think what really interesting point as you say, which is that, if you look at sort of a lot of the Developer side of things that have sort of come out in the last like six months, six to eighteen months. The things I see, I see daily like you mention, things like orchestrating for containers gaining momentum. If you think about crossing the Kaizen model, we're just passed the early Dockers now. We're kind of into the early majority, but we're going to start to move over the next few years into the late majority. What that really means is that people here have been using one of two of these technologies. Maybe you've been using cloud, maybe you've been using Edge, maybe you've been using containers, maybe you've been using CICD, maybe you are using Expiration, maybe you're not. Maybe you've got a Microservice application, maybe it's a little bit of a mole rat. What we're really going to see is, you're going to start to see, all of these changes intersecting and overlapping. And people who have started to pick up model two of these will start to pick up all of them. And that's probably going to happen as we move into the majority of users. So from a what's coming instead of a lot of those thing that you see in best practice in the ideal Developer setup, so a beautiful CICD, a more of an orchestrated environment, Microservice architecture, we're going to see a lot more of that becoming the norm. But I think along with that, we'll also see a level of recognition coming along that a single Microservice alone doesn't provide value. And that's it's going to be some of those groups of services that will provide the user outcome. And that's where my focus is at the end which is you know, an authentication service is great but it doesn't provide value unless you give access to something as authentic. >> It's been issued that the new Docker is all about Developer experience. This is really the core mission. I mean, since the sale of the piece of morantis, Docker has retrenched and reinvented, but stayed core to its principles. Just share with the Developers who've been watching that are coming back into the ecosystem, what is this new Docker vibe? Share your thoughts. >> The new Docker vibe is about working in the open, and it's about solving problems for Developments. The original goal of Docker was to make it easy to pack and ship. It was to reduce Developer friction. As we move more into, sort of, the enterprise space, we worry more about Ops and DevOps. We're not trying to re-focus on Developer and if you sort of think there's two parts to the Developer life cycle, where you've got your work, where you're doing your creative work, where you're writing code. And then you've sort of got your part of the inner loop. And then you've got your part where you're trying to get that code out to production, you're trying to get your value to someone else. Instead of your outer loop, we're really trying to focus on the inner loop And sort of our mantra is that any bit for a Developer should spend as much as their time as possible creating new and exciting things and we're onto those holes that reduce those boring, Monday, repetitive tasks, that we're really trying to work out how we take those boring repetitive pieces and how do we make them just vanish like magic from new users or how do we reduce the friction for the experience from users? From both desktop and hub, we're really trying to bring those two together to achieve that. >> You know what's great about folks who have been in the class since day one. All of us have scar tissue experiences, you know the one thing that's constant is constant change. And one of the things that you guys have done at Docker, and hats off to the whole, you know, original team, is that brand of Docker has symbolized quality openness, and set the standard, I mean, if you look back and containers were really coming around, it's not a new concept. But Docker really set the industry on this path and it's been great to follow every DockerCon at TheCube coverage, but more importantly, as the demand for Developers to build these next wave of Cambrian explosion of applications. It's going to be more important than ever to have more of these abstractions, more of these tools in this real time, more Developers experience because there's more building going on. And it's not just one cloud, it's all clouds, it's all things. >> Yeah, I think it was like when IDC analyzed the future report a couple years ago, I think it was maybe the 2018 one. They said that maybe 2017. They said to date, we've built 500 millions applications worldwide and by 2023, we'll build another 500 million. The rate of creation is just insane, it's exponential growth of us producing more and more applications and connecting more and more devices to do them. The sheer volume of creation and the rate of new technology supporting, even with the rate of companies adopting, I guess more of a warm cloud. I think it's like 60 percent of companies are now more than one cloud provider. Maybe even more, maybe it's like 80 percent. It's ridiculous. >> I was just having this debate on Twitter about this multi-cloud. Someone tried to call us out saying, "Oh you guys were pooing on multi-cloud in 2016 and 18." I go "Look at, no one was Pooping on multi-cloud, it didn't exist." I had multiple clouds but there was no real use case. Now you're starting to see the use cases, where yeah, I had multiple clouds and I got Azure here, I got this over here. But no one wakes up and spreads their workloads wrong. This is going back a few years. Certainly the hybrid was developing, but I think now you're starting to see with networking and some of these inter-operable dynamics, you start to see innovation pockets in wide spaces in large market opportunities for start-ups and companies to thread the clouds together at the right place. So I think multi-cloud is becoming apparent from a use case stand point. Still a ton of work to do, I mean direct connects, got SLA's, I mean all kinds of stuff at the networking level but it is real. It's going to be one of those realities that everyone has, at least one or two, if not three. It could be optimization, this is what Developers do right? Solve problems. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean if nothing else, I've encounter a couple of companies even just where redundancy is handled by multi-cloud strategy. If you want to achieve more nines and you're just balancing workloads between two clouds. >> I mean, the Zoom news was really a testament to that because everyone got into a twist over that. Oh Zoom moves off Amazon, no they didn't move off Amazon, they went to Oracle, they got Adge, they're everywhere. Why wouldn't they be? They need to pass it, they fail over, they need fall tolerance, I mean, these are basic distributing computing concepts that is one on one. You've got to have these co-locations. And optimization for those clouds and the apps on Microsoft as well, so why wouldn't you do it? >> Exactly. And that's that hybrid, that multi-cloud, compounding that some of which you said earlier, that over changes when you're looking at how you go to CICD, how you're bundling these applications, creating more applications than ever. Coming back, sort of, with more AI workloads, much like GPU and you combine that with, sort of, last in the growth of age devices as well. It sort of makes for a really interesting future. And Docker is sort of, that summation SOV, what we're using to frame how we're thinking about our product and what we should be building. >> Great, for the audience out there, hit him up on Twitter, Ben's available, they're out in the open, if you're interested in how Docker makes life easier on the Windows platform, with the GPU support, they've got security now built in, shifting left. Give these guys a call and of course, we love the mission, out in the open. It's theCUBE's mission as well and great to chat with you. Ben, thanks for spending the time with me today. >> Been an absolute pleasure, thank you for having me. >> Okay, just TheCube's coverage, the virtual Cube with DockerCon co-creating together out in the open. DockerCon20, #Docker20, I'm John Fer with TheCube, stay tuned for our next segment, and thanks for watching. (ambient music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCube. Covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage of CNCF. The Cloud Native Foundation, Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation of KubeCon 2018 here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier co-host of theCUBE here with analyst this week Lauren Cooney, who is the founder of Spark Labs, brand new start up that she founded to help companies bring innovation to Cloud Native, bring in all of her expertise to companies. Also, here on theCUBE, Lauren, great to have you this week. >> Thanks, John. >> Here in Europe, you've done so much work in the area of open source over the years. You've done, you were radical renegade, progressive, pushing PHP, bringing that to Microsoft. Doing a lot of great things, and now we're in a new modern era, and you're bringing that expertise, but you're also on the front lines of the new wave. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Cloud Native, so what's your take? What's your analysis? I mean, there's so much going on. You can't just retrofit old school open source, but it's got to build on the next generation. What's your thoughts? >> It has to build on the next generation, but you also have to look back at what has happened in the past. I think what is incredibly important to see is the mistakes that have been made in the past, so that people don't repeat them. One of the things that I'm seeing here and hearing a lot about is multiple distributions of Kubernetes out there, and when I hear multiple distributions I get worried that they're going the open sack route and there is going to be too many distributions out there. I would rather see one or two standard become kind of more standard and people building on top of that. I think it's the right way to go versus the splintering of the community. If the community is going to stay together you're going to have to narrow that down. >> What's the rationale for the distribution? Because, we've seen this before. Certainly at Hadoop, we saw people come out with distros and then abandon them, and then people coalesce around. >> Oh, they'll just die on the vine. I mean, fundamentally they just will die on the vine. It won't be, if it's not de facto already you're probably not going to get it de facto. >> John: What should companies do? Should they have a distro down. >> They should map to one of the key distros right now. They should, basically, use what is out there already. The one that they feel is right, and for their users, and for their company long term. >> I really enjoyed a couple of interviews we had yesterday. I want to just kind of revisit a couple of them. Tyler and Dirk, we had Tyler on from the new programming language ballerina that was launched. He's part of WSO2. Dirk is from Vien, where former early Linux guy, Linux foundation guy, worked with Linux tarballs in the early days. These guys know up the source. So you look at some of those leaders, and they say, "Hey, this is about the people" What are the things that we can draw from the past that are still relevant today? As the new formula of Kubernetes horizontally scalable cloud, Cloud Native thousands and, potentially, millions of micro-services coming online, new kinds of dynamic policy based infrastructure software, everything's coming. >> Service mesh, can't forget service mesh. >> Service meshes are going to be huge. What do we have to keep and preserve, and what is being built out that's new? >> Well, I think that you need to preserve the feeling of the community and what's going on there. I mean, these communities, actually it's communities not community, and these folks are coming along for the wave right? And I think it's important to make sure that people are aware of that, and there's lots of different personalities and lots of different goodness that can be brought to the table with that and the recognition of that. I also think that, for the most part, I do believe that this is one of the strongest communities out there, and it will continue to be for a number of years. >> I want to get your thoughts on something Ed Warnicke said from Cisco because he was very complimentary of the CNCF as are other people, and we have been complimentary as well about keeping everything tight to the core and allowing people to innovate. So you have, and we have commented on theCUBE and other KubeCons about this, and they've been doing it, which is let the innovation foster on the technical side as well as let people flex their business model opportunities. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Not so much just for the sake of commercialization because if you have too much commercialization you might stunt the community of growth organically so there's a balance, and I think CNCF has done a good job there, but they've kept the core of Kubernetes really tight which has allowed the de facto standard approach to be Kubernetes. That has created great opportunity, and people are super excited by that. What's your analysis of what happens next? What needs to happen? What's the momentum phase two of this? >> I think part of it is, how do you monetize, right? It's looking at, and this is part of what Spark Labs actually does, is we actually work with companies, some that are in the CNCF, and we work on them in different ways to monetize. Is it a services wrapper that's going to work? Is it additional features or functionality? The innovation comes with the technology, but with that technology you have to have the business model kind of in mind when you're building this out so you can figure out how to make money. As these smaller companies especially are looking to do and some of the bigger companies as well. >> I really think it's important for the CNCF and the Linux foundation and I know they're on this so its not critical analysis so much as it is more of an observation. You have a long tail of start ups and kind of a fat tail if you will, that are out there, and you have the big whales out there Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and others at the top. There was a comment in Austin, a snarky comment. I won't say by who, but I was looking at the logo board of the sponsors, and the guy said, "All those start-ups, they might be dead in 18 months" and it made me pause and say okay, that's an observation because they were brand new companies. >> Lauren: Mm hmm. >> That can't happen. We need to have a model of preservation for start-ups to experiment, to grow. This is something you're doing at Spark Labs so what's your view of this? And, reaction to the fact that this has to happen. What can we do as an industry and community to make sure the start ups-- >> I think the Linux foundation is doing one of the best things that can be done out there. Other open source foundations do too. Is they create the infrastructure so that folks have the support for marketing, or legal, or something along those lines, but so companies are allowed to innovate and then the Linux Foundation basically bets on the innovation and they bet on multiple innovations with multiple companies so they allow these companies to thrive while giving them the support inside of that. >> John: Yeah. >> And I think that's really helping a lot of these companies along. >> Well, Dave Collins always says is the membership organization, so no members no business model so I mean they're incented to make sure that, or hope, that these guys can survive, and certainly there's going to be some misfires and people will natural evolution. So what are you most excited about? I got to ask ya, I mean you're out on your own now. Congratulations, you started up. >> Thank you. >> Super exciting for you and I'm happy that you're going to go out on your own. What are some of the things you're excited about? What are you digging your teeth into, in terms of projects? Share what you're doing. >> I'm super excited about these companies that are coming out with true multi-cloud. So, allowing applications to run across multiple environments, public, private, et cetera. And we've been saying we can do it for a decade or something like that, but fundamentally that wasn't the case. You did have to re-write code. You did have to do a lot of underlying things to make that occur. One of the things that I'm super excited about is being able to take those companies and figure out how to actually get their product to market faster. Some of these guys are still in stealth. They need to move really fast if they want to catch up. I also love working with them on figuring out how to build out their teams, figuring out how to monetize. What are the next steps? What are the business plans, really, behind this? What is the one, three, five year model that they're going to use? I also love helping them get the money, of course. I think that's the fun part too. >> Yeah, it's always fun. Start-ups are great. What I'm excited about, I got to tell ya, I got to share with you just some personal feelings. I love this market right now because I've seen many waves of innovation and I think this wave of cloud native, whatever you want to call it this massive wave or sets of waves coming in and you got blockchain and other things going on behind it these centralized applications which I think is part of this set coming in, is that it's bigger than all the other waves combined and because there's so much value creation on the horizon and I think historically, this moment in time, historically is going to be a point we're going to look back and say the Kubernetes de facto standard galvanized a set of industry, a new card of players who are going to establish a new way methodology of doing things, and we're documenting it. Secondly, the role of community, as you pointed out, is so important here, and it's strong, but now we're living in a new age of digital. We're seeing formations of new kinds of community engagement digitally, not just the events, so I'm excited with theCUBE and what we're doing here, and what the Linux Foundation is doing because there's now going to be, potentially, exponential growth and acceleration around the combination of community. >> Yup. >> The community growth with this new modern commercialization on digital. >> It's definitely increasingly important, and you have to look at it from the technologies making it happen. The technology is looking at, edge computing is going to make digital happen really when you look at all the end points and things along those lines. And, I think that it's going to be great for everyone involved in that. >> Yeah, and we can learn a lot from looking at the Facebook example of how fake news swayed the election. How people were weaponizing content for bad things. There's also an opposite effect, we believe that you can do the for good. >> Lauren: Totally agree. >> I think digital will have a big role in the next generation community formations, community growth, short cuts to the truth, really that's what it's all about. It's about the people, so certainly we're going to be documenting it. Thanks for your commentary. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Appreciate it, great to work with you this week. Day two of exclusive coverage, here at the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation's, CNCF's KubeCon 2018. This is where Kubernetes, service mesh, Istio a lot of great projects, from a lot of smart people. We're here on the ground covering it live. Day two, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us for day two coverage, after this short break. (electronic music)