[Music] from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM think brought to you by IBM welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM think 2020 the digital version of IBM think Bill Smith is here he's the general manager of IBM Global Financing bill thanks for coming on thank you very much for having me up I'm looking forward to it yeah me too so you know I remember the days of the the glory days of IBM you know leasing I used to run the leasing program for a couple of years at IDC and it was just it was an awesome time but things have changed a lot I mean iBM has really transformed its financing army what do we need to know about today's IBM Global Financing well some things are still saying but as you said a lot is different we constantly are celebrating our 40th anniversary this year a big part of our business is now software and services financing a lot of project man Singh we still do a lot of hardware business but it's a much much smaller portion of our thirty billion dollar asset base so it's a great business it was a great business back then when you were involved in it the very profitable and and interesting business today as it was then as I said big difference though a lot of software and services yeah well I've of course I would have mentioned that most if not all mainframes are still leased but now you've expanded it to many many more areas what can you tell us about you know some of the financial metrics you know what's the profile of the business look like yeah sure it's a it's a big business it looks a lot like a bank and we're around 30 billion in asset we do business and you know 40 plus countries around the world 26% return on equity most of the portfolio's very high percentage of that portfolio is investment rate so a couple other key metrics is we we actually issue our own debt we became an SCC registrant a couple years ago we have a you know many debt holders we only have one owner and one equity owner and that's IBM it's a very good business but 2% of IBM's revenue but about 10% of IBM's from yeah well so now this is an important aspect that I want to join to it when people you know look at the IBM balance sheet they'll you know go out or whatever Yahoo Finance and say oh my gosh look at all this debt must be you know I know of course the redhead acquisition is part of that but you're carrying a lot of the debt as part of the financing operation but people need to understand it's a very profitable and very high quality debt and if we could just address that one of the big benefits to becoming an SCC registrant is the amount of transparency that we were able to provide the investors so unlike other captive financing companies they just get rolled in to different units or parts of the books you know we actually report in the segment reporting every quarter we certify just like they you know public company would we're still a wholly owned subsidiary but the level of transparency is really great for the investors which is why you know debt holders were able to Willington by our paper it's still a very client based business we do very specialized structures we only do business and NIT as I told the board many times I'd be on board many times we don't do planes trains and automobiles we only do we only do I see and and really you know 99 percent of our businesses is IBM only so you talked about branching into software and services I'm interested in how the the client base has has transformed as a result of that sure you know there's a lot of digital transformations going on there's still a lot of ERP implementations around the world very large project so we we described it as project financing so if client will come to us and say bill we'd like to match the benefit of this very large GBS or services engagement that the IBM team is leading we like to match the benefit when we have the cash outlay so we'll put a structure together that will delay the payment for when those benefits begin to come online for the enterprise and then match payment with when benefits are actually received it's proven to be a very very effective financing instrument for us but highly effective economic instruments for the clients also gives if I'm you know contracting with IBM services you've got a major incentive for the services organization to deliver value as soon as possible and that aligns everybody doesn't it it absolutely does you know we have a lot of business partners where they'll do similar structures as well so other integrators you know if the redhead acquisition and and clients moving to a hybrid cloud model sometimes there's a migration that will take place between the traditional legacy systems and when they move that cloud well that bubble of been we take Dera so will will finance that migration effort for the client and again to match their cash outlays with when they receive the benefit that I've left from that cloud migration in the day there were tons of leasing companies who would take the risk and predict the residual values and then they'd take the paper and and and then it was just an awesome business and of course the government provided some incentives to do that with the investment tax credit what about things like refurbished equipment is that's still something that you do today or is that a thing of the mainframe pass that's great yeah that's a great question you know it's a it's still a really important and a sustainable business for us we we take equipment back that comes off of a lease or sometimes alone but typically a lease and we will refurbish that or reman factor that equipment and then put it back into market oftentimes it goes into our services organization for them to use with their clients the global technology services typically you know we will we will matram a fact or a remarket about 29,000 IT devices a week 16,000 tons of idea quipment around the in a year around the world so these remanufacturing refurbishing centers so it's a even though the hardware business has come down in its percentage of IBM's business compared to software and services it's still a very very big business as you can see by the the size of the number of equipment and the tonnage what about some of the initiatives that are so you mentioned you know the digital transformation a lot going on with cloud machine intelligence I mean those big projects you know some of them are still multi-year you know seven weeks people say oh there's no more multi-year projects but digital transformations are multi-year projects even though you might take them in chunks but I'm going to capitalize those can I finance them as well what role does does IBM finance play in that you absolutely can and and that is a big big part of our business today though the the client will they look I've got a very large digital transformation project going to take place in four countries we are looking for an opportunity to match those cash outlays with when those countries come online or when we begin to receive the benefits we also want you've been and some of the software that goes with this digital transformation and we also want to spin and the IT infrastructure that's required so we may put those services software and hardware on a different financial instruments but it looks like you know one total bill for the client and it and its global it's a global footprint so we're able to handle the different currencies around the world and and again most importantly match those cash outlays with when the benefits are received so bill you know as long as I've been in this business the IT investments from a CFOs perspective have always been viewed as a higher risk granted higher reward but but you know the the CFOs would say okay you're gonna have to have a little higher IRR for this one because you know the business moves so fast technology changes so quickly how are you seeing the CIO - CFO conversation evolve what's your advice to see iPods in terms of how they talk to two CFO's that's another really good question so I was just on with actually new client this morning one was the F of the other one was a treasurer and they were asking my opinion about this financial instrument and and and getting some advice actually the conversation went look it's not really cost the debt issue the cost of money is always part of the economic decision but oftentimes those clients use financing instrument as a way to manage the asset manage the asset throughout the life the project they also want to focus on the delivery the quality of the delivery I think that takes place during these very very large project financing engagements so the CFO specifically said look I really like business case it's quite clear when we're gonna receive these benefit what I'd like to know Bill is how do you view the risk of the implementation and you know we were able to share with them the risk work that we do with with GBS team our level of confidence that it will be done on time and on budget and the skill level of the of the partner team that's been assigned so it actually has allowed us to have a different conversation with different group or senior level at the account CFO Treasury sometimes the controller you play an important role in de-risking the the business case and as well I mean I would imagine right now in there you know these on certain times that you know IBM Global Financing can provide liquidity to businesses who need it that you you know are confident you know are stable business but might need some help you know getting through this pandemic we can and as you said the what makes us a little different is you know we make credit decisions on what we call arm's length credit visions you know for a standalone albeit at the financing company so we're very very focused on maintaining the right investment grade of the portfolio we're going to make really really good prudent risk decisions you know that being said we have some fabulous IBM clients that have been clients for a long time we work very closely with them understanding their financial structures what's what's important to them and they're very transparent with us about you know with financial challenges they have so we'll continue to provide that liquidity we are going to be very prudent but we'll certainly help those really good clients well last question it's kind of where do you see this going what's your kind of vision for IBM global global finance and give us a little glimpse of the future sure you know I think you'll see us continue to migrate in the direction of the IBM company moves the IBM company is aggressively moving towards a hybrid cloud model we'll continue to provide those migration services will continue to do you know some short-term financing a part of the business we didn't talk about was the commercial financing we provide short-term working capital through IBM 6000 isness partners so to help them with their free cash flow running their businesses you know that's a pretty big business for us we'll do about you know 14 billion or so in financing to that commercial financing business so I'll see that continue as well and then finally I'm sure you'll see us continue to grow the software and services financing as well and we'll stay with the very very high anything rate for whatever is left of IBM's Hardware portfolio point you made about the partner financing is huge like you said it helps them bridge their free cash flow it makes IBM a more attractive partner for through those resellers and partners it does and we've been in that business for a very very long time oftentimes we are one of the you know largest predators for those partners so the liquidity that we provide Danville allow them to run their businesses day to day with that short term working capital is something that we're very committed to you over the long term for IBM product and services so IBM Global Financing a very important and strategic part of IBM's business a differentiator a very few companies actually can provide that type of service to their clients and so bill really appreciate you coming to the Kuban and sharing that with with our audience great to have you back yeah very much Brad you've been a real pleasure - our pleasure as well thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Volante for the cube our continuous coverage of IBM think 2020 we'll be right back right after this short break you're watching the cube [Music] you

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM thing brought to you by IBM hi buddy we're back this is Dave Volante and you're watching the cubes coverage of the IBM think 20/20 digital event experience wall-to-wall coverage of course in the remote cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston Grendel Greg lot Co is here he's with Broadcom he's a senior vice president and general manager of the Broadcom mainframe division Greg great to see you thanks for coming on hey good seeing you too happy to be here hey let's talk Z you know I gotta say when Broadcom made a nearly nineteen billion dollar acquisition of ca many people myself included said huh I don't really get it but might as you start to see what's happening the massive CA install base and the cross selling opportunities that have come to Broadcom you start to connect the dots and say uh maybe this does make some sense but you know how does it how's it going how's the acquisition been it's been you know what two years since that that move yeah we're coming up on two years I think it kind of shocked the world right I mean there's a lot of value there and the customers that have been using the mainframe and running their core businesses for many many years they knew this right so Broadcom came in and said hey you know I don't think this is the cash cow that others maybe have been treating it as you know we absolutely believed with some investment that you could actually drive greater value to customers and you know what a novel concept great you know expand expense invest drive greater volley value and that would be the way you'd expand revenue and profit yeah I mean I think generally the mainframe market is misunderstood it obviously goes in cycles I did a report a couple months ago on really focusing on z15 extras last summer and how historically IBM performance overall as a company is really driven still by mainframe cycles because it still drags so much software and services and so we're in the in the midst of a z15 tailwind and and so of course in that the Cova changes everything but nonetheless it's a it's a good business IBM's a dominant player in that business customers it'll continue to buy mainframes because it just works it's too risky to rip them out people say oh I want to get rid of the mainframe no way customers are going to do that's running their business so it's just a it's a fabulous business you know if you have a play there and clearly da yeah and if you think about those cycles that's largely driven by the hardware right as each generation comes out and if you look at traditional pricing metrics that really look at using that capacity or even using full capacity that's what caused us equality with the software as well but you know there's a lot a lot of changes even in that space I mean with us with mainframe consumption licensing from from Broadcom with IBM doing tailor-fit pricing you know the idea that you can have that Headroom on the hardware and then pay as you go pay as you grow I think that actually will smooth out and remove some of that psychology from the software space and as you said correctly you look at the the kovat stuff going on I mean there's an awful lot of transactions going on online people are obviously checking their financials with the economics going on the shipping companies are booming with with what they have to do so that's actually driving transactions up as well to use that capacity that's in the boxes yeah and financial services is actually and really good know the the stocks have been hit but the liquidity and the banks is very very strong because of the 2009 crisis though the fiscal policy sort of you know dictated that or you know the public policy dictated that so so the band the banks are here we see huge consumers of mainframe one of the things that that IBM did years ago was it sort of embraced Linux was one of its first moves to open up the mainframe but it's much more than just Linux I wonder if you could talk about so your point of view on open meets mainframe yeah so open is way more than just Linux right I mean Linux Linux is good running around the mainframe I mean that's that's absolutely an open paradigm from the operating system but open is also about opening up the API is opening up the connectivity so that it's easier to interact with the platform and you know sometimes people think open is just about dealing with open source certainly we've made a lot of investments there we contributed the command line interphase and actually a little more than 50% of the original contribution to the Zoe Project under the OMP the open mainframe project so that was about allowing open source technologies that interact with distributed and cloud technologies to now interact with that mainframe so it's it's not just the open source technologies but opening up the API so you can then connect the cross technologies that are on the platform or off platform so what about the developer community I mean it's obviously a lot of talk in the industry about about DevOps how does DevOps fit into the mainframe world Oh what about innovations like agile and you know sort of beyond DevOps if you will can you comment on that yeah absolutely I mean you can bring all those paradigms all those capabilities to the mainframe now with opening up those api's so I mean we had a large European retail bank that is actually used the it bridge that we work with providing you know through Zoe to connect into endeavor so they could leverage all the investments they have made in that existing technology over the years but actually used the same kind of see ICD pipeline the same interaction that they do across distributed platforms and mainframe together and open up that experience across their development community with that really means is you're using the same concepts the same tools that they maybe became comfortable with in university or on different platforms to then interact with the mainframe and it's not that you're doing anything that you know takes away from core capabilities of the mainframe you're still leveraging the stability the really resiliency this the throughput the serviceability but you're pressing down on it and interacting with it just like you do with other platform so it's it's really cool and and that goes beyond Linux right Fisher you're interacting with capabilities and technologies that are on the mainframe and z/os environment yeah in the end the hardened security as well as another you know key absolutely let's talk about cloud where does weird a lot of people talk about cloud cloud first multi cloud where does the mainframe fit in the cloud world so there's a lot of definitions of cloud out there right I mean people will talk about private cloud public cloud hybrid cloud across multiple private clouds they'll talk about you know this multi cloud we we actually talk about it a little differently we think about the customers cloud environment you know our our institution that we're dealing with say it's a financial institution to their end customers their cloud is however you interact and you think about it if you're if you're checking an account balance if you're depositing in a check if you're doing any of these interactions you're probably picking up a mobile device or a PC you're dealing with an edge server you're going back into distributed servers and you're eventually interacting with the mainframe and then that's got to come all the way back out to you that is our customers cloud so we talk about their cloud environment and you have to think about this paradigm of allowing the mainframe to connect through and to all of that while you hit it preserving the security so we think of cloud as being much more expansive and the mainframe is an integral part of that absolutely yeah I've seen some of your your discussions where you've talked about it sort of laid out look you know the mainframe sits behind all this other infrastructure that you know ultimately the consumer on his or her mobile phone you know it goes through a gateway it goes to you know some kind of site to buy something you know ends up ultimately doing a transaction and in that transaction you want to be you know secure you want it to be accurate and then how do how does that happen the majority of the world's transactions are you know running on some kind of you know IBM mainframe somewhere in some way touches that transaction so it's a you know as the world gets more complex that that mainframe is that I called it sort of the hardened you know sort of back-end and that has to evolve to be able to adapt to the changes at the front end and that's really kind of what's happening whether it's cloud whether it's mobile whether it's you know Linux and other open source so it's right it's it's fabulous that the mainframe has you know IO rates and throughput that no other platform and match but if you can't connect that to the transactions that the customer is driving to it then you're not leveraging the value right so you really have to think about it from a perspective of how do you open up everything you possibly can on the mainframe while preserving that theory I want to end with just talking about the the Broadcom portfolio when you hit the the Broadcom mainframe site it's it's actually quite mind-boggling the dozens and dozens of services and software capabilities that you provide how would you describe that that portfolio and what do you see is the vision for that portfolio going forward yeah so when people normally say portfolio they're thinking software products and we have hundreds of software products but we're looking at our portfolio as more than just the software sometimes people talk about hey let me just talk to you about my latest and greatest product one of the things we were really afforded the opportunity to do with Broadcom acquiring us was to reinvest to double down on core products that customers have had for many years and we know that they want to be able to count on for many years to come but the other really important thing we believe about driving value to our customers was those offerings and capabilities that you put around that you know think about the idea of if you want to migrate off of a competitive product or if you want to adopt an additional product that have the ability to tie these together often in our customer shops they don't have all the skills that they need or they just don't have the capacity to do it so we've been investing in partnership you know we kept our services business from at least that resources the people from CA we rolled them directly into the division and we're investing them in true partnership working side-by-side with our customers to help them deploy these capabilities get up and running and be successful and and we believe that's the the value of a true partnership to invest side-by-side to have them be successful with the software and their capabilities and their operation well like I said I caught a lot of people myself included by surprised that acquisition it was a big number but you can see it you know the outcomes performance post you know the July 2018 acquisition done quite well obviously co vid is affected you know much of the market but seems to be paying off Greg thanks so much for coming to the Kuban sharing your insights and best of luck going forward stay safe pleasure being here everybody you yourself and everybody out there be safe be well take care and thank you for everybody for watching this is the cubes coverage of the IBM think 20/20 digital event experience we right back right after this short break you're watching the cube [Music]

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hi everybody this is David on tape with the cube and welcome to the special digital presentation we're really digging into how IBM is operationalizing and automating the AI and data pipeline not only for its clients but also for itself and with me is Julie Lochner who looks after offering management and IBM's data and AI portfolio Julie great to see you again okay great to be here thank you talk a little bit about the role you have here at IBM sure so my responsibility in offering management in the data and AI organization is really twofold one is I lead a team that implements all of the back-end processes really the operations behind anytime we deliver a product from the data AI team to the market so think about all of the release cycle management pricing product management discipline etc the other roles that I play is really making sure that um we are working with our customers and making sure they have the best customer experience and a big part of that is developing the data ops methodology it's something that I needed internally from my own line of business execution but it's now something that our customers are looking for to implement in their shops as well well good I really want to get into that and so let's let's start with data ops I mean I think you know a lot of people are familiar with DevOps not maybe not everybody's familiar with the data Ops what do we need to know about data well I mean you bring up the point that everyone knows DevOps and and then in fact I think you know what data Ops really does is bring a lot of the benefits that DevOps did for application development to the data management organizations so when we look at what is data ops it's a data management it's a it's a data management set of principles that helps organizations bring business ready data to their consumers quickly it takes it borrows from DevOps similarly where you have a data pipeline that associates a business value requirement I have this business initiative it's gonna drive this much revenue or this much cost savings this is the data that I need to be able to deliver it how do I develop that pipeline and map to the data sources know what data it is know that I can trust it so ensuring that it has the right quality that I'm actually using the data that it was meant for and then put it to use so in in history most dated management practices deployed a waterfall like methodology or implementation methodology and what that meant is all the data pipeline projects were implemented serially and it was dawn based on potentially a first-in first-out program management office with a DevOps mental model and the idea of being able to slice through all of the different silos that's required to collect the data to organize it to integrate it to validate its quality to create those data integration pipelines and then present it to the dashboard like if it's a Cognos dashboard for a operational process or even a data science team that whole end-to-end process gets streamlined through what we're calling data ops methodology so I mean as you well know we've been following this market since the early days of a dupe and people struggle with their data pipelines it's complicated for them there's a raft of tools and and and they spend most of their time wrangling data preparing data improving data quality different roles within the organization so it sounds like you know to borrow from from DevOps data OPS's is all about REME lining that data pipeline helping people really understand and communicate across end to end as you're saying but but what's the ultimate business outcome that you're trying to drive so when you think about projects that require data to again cut cost to automate a business process or drive new revenue initiatives how long does it take to get from having access to the data to making it available that duration for every time delay that is spent wasted trying to connect to data sources trying to find subject matter experts that understand what the data means and can verify its quality like all of those steps along those different teams and different disciplines introduces delay in delivering high quality data fast so the business value of data Ops is always associated with something that the business is trying to achieve but with a time element so if it's for every day we don't have this data to make a decision we're either making money or losing money that's the value proposition of data ops so it's about taking things that people are already doing today and figuring out the quickest way to do it through automation through workflows and just cutting through all of the political barriers that often happens when these data's cross different organizational boundaries yeah so speed time to insights is critical but to in and then you know with DevOps you're really bringing together the skill sets into sort of you know one super dev or one super ops it sounds with data ops it's really more about everybody understanding their role and having communication and line-of-sight across the entire organization it's not trying to make everybody a superhuman data person it's the whole it's the group it's the team effort really it's really a team game here isn't it well that's a big part of it so just like any type of practice there's people aspects process aspects and technology right so people process technology and while you're you're describing it like having that super team that knows everything about the data the only way that's possible is if you have a common foundation of metadata so we've seen a surgeons in the data catalog market and last you know six seven years and what what the what that the innovation in the data catalog market has actually enabled us to be able to drive more data ops pipelines meaning as you identify data assets you've captured the metadata you capture its meaning you capture information that can be shared whether they're stakeholders it really then becomes more of a essential repository for people to really quickly know what data they have really quickly understand what it means in its quality and very quickly with the right proper authority like privacy rules included put it to use for models you know dashboards operational processes okay and and we're gonna talk about some examples and one of them of course is ibm's own internal example but but help us understand where you advise clients to start I want to get into it where do I get started yeah I mean so traditionally what we've seen with these large data management data governance programs is that sometimes our customers feel like this is a big pill to swallow and what we've said is look there's an opera there's an opportunity here to quickly define a small project align it to a high-value business initiative target something that you can quickly gain access to the data map out these pipelines and create a squad of skills so it includes a person with DevOps type programming skills to automate an instrument a lot of the technology a subject matter expert who understands the data sources and its meaning a line of business executive who can translate bringing that information to the business project and associating with business value so when we say how do you get started we've developed a I would call it a pretty basic maturity model to help organizations figure out where are they in terms of the technology where are they in terms of organizationally knowing who the right people should be involved in these projects and then from a process perspective we've developed some pretty prescriptive project plans that help you nail down what are the data elements that are critical for this business business initiative and then we have for each role what their jobs are to consolidate the datasets map them together and present them to the consumer we find that six-week projects typically three sprints are perfect times to be able to in a timeline to create one of these very short quick win projects take that as an opportunity to figure out where your bottlenecks are in your own organization where your skill shortages are and then use the outcome of that six-week sprint to then focus on filling in gaps kick off the next project and iterate celebrate the success and promote the success because it's typically tied to a business value to help them create momentum for the next one all right that's awesome I want to now get into some examples I mean or you're we're both massachusetts-based normally you'd be in our studio and we'd be sitting here face-to-face obviously with kovat 19 in this crisis we're all sheltering in place you're up in somewhere in New England I happen to be in my studio believe it but I'm the only one here so relate this to kovat how would data ops or maybe you have a concrete example in in terms of how it's helped inform or actually anticipate and keep up-to-date with what's happening with building yeah well I mean we're all experiencing it I don't think there's a person on the planet who hasn't been impacted by what's been going on with this coded pandemic crisis so we started we started down this data obscurity a year ago I mean this isn't something that we just decided to implement a few weeks ago we've been working on developing the methodology getting our own organization in place so that we could respond the next time we needed to be able to you know act upon a data-driven decision so part of step one of our journey has really been working with our global chief data officer Interpol who I believe you have had an opportunity to meet with an interview so part of this year journey has been working with with our corporate organization I'm in the line of business organization where we've established the roles and responsibilities we've established the technology stack based on our cloud pack for data and Watson knowledge catalog so I use that as the context for now we're faced with a pandemic crisis and I'm being asked in my business unit to respond very quickly how can we prioritize the offerings that are gonna help those in critical need so that we can get those products out to market we can offer a you know 90-day free use for governments and Hospital agencies so in order for me to do that as a operations lead for our team I needed to be able to have access to our financial data I needed to have access to our product portfolio information I needed to understand our cloud capacity so in order for me to be able to respond with the offers that we recently announced you know you can take a look at some of the examples with our Watson citizen assistant program where I was able to provide the financial information required for us to make those products available for governments hospitals state agencies etc that's a that's a perfect example now to to set the stage back to the corporate global chief data office organization they implemented some technology that allowed us to ingest data automatically classify it automatically assign metadata automatically associate data quality so that when my team started using that data we knew what the status of that information was when we started to build our own predictive models and so that's a great example of how we've partnered with a corporate central organization and took advantage of the automated set of capabilities without having to invest in any additional resources or headcount and be able to release products within a matter of a couple of weeks and in that automation is a function of machine intelligence is that right and obviously some experience but but you couldn't you and I when we were consultants doing this by hand we couldn't have done this we could have done it at scale anyways it is it machine intelligence an AI that allows us to do this that's exactly right and as you know our organization is data and AI so we happen to have the a research and innovation teams that are building a lot of this technology so we have somewhat of an advantage there but you're right the alternative to what I've described is manual spreadsheets it's querying databases it's sending emails to subject matter experts asking them what this data means if they're out sick or on vacation you have to wait for them to come back and all of this was a manual process and in the last five years we've seen this data catalog market really become this augmented data catalog and that augmentation means it's automation through AI so with years of experience and natural language understanding we can comb through a lot of the metadata that's available electronically we can comb through unstructured data we can categorize it and if you have a set of business terms that have industry standard definitions through machine learning we can automate what you and I did as a consultant manually in a matter of seconds that's the impact the AI is had in our organization and now we're bringing this to the market and it's a it's a big part of where I'm investing my time both internally and externally is bringing these types of concepts and ideas to the market so I'm hearing first of all one of the things that strikes me is you've got multiple data sources and data lives everywhere you might have your supply chain data and your ERP maybe that sits on Prem you might have some sales data that's sitting in the SAS store in a cloud somewhere you might have you know a weather data that you want to bring in in theory anyway the more data that you have the better insights that you can gather assuming you've got the right data quality but so let me start with like where the data is right so so it sits anywhere you don't know where it's gonna be but you know you need it so that that's part of this right is being able to read it quickly yeah it's funny you bring it up that way I actually look a little differently it's when you start these projects the data was in one place and then by the time you get through the end of a project you find out that it's a cloud so the data location actually changes while we're in the middle of projects we have many or coming even during this this pandemic crisis we have many organizations that are using this as an opportunity to move to SAS so what was on Prem is now cloud but that shouldn't change the definition of the data it shouldn't change its meaning it might change how you connect to it um it might also change your security policies or privacy laws now all of a sudden you have to worry about where is that data physically located and am I allowed to share it across national boundaries right before we knew physically where it was so when you think about data ops data ops is a process that sits on top of where the data physically resides and because we're mapping metadata and we're looking at these data pipelines and automated workflows part of the design principles are to set it up so that it's independent of where it resides however you have to have placeholders in your metadata and in your tool chain where we oughta mating these workflows so that you can accommodate when the data decides to move because of corporate policy change from on-prem to cloud then that's a big part of what data Ops offers it's the same thing by the way for DevOps they've had to accommodate you know building in you know platforms as a service versus on from the development environments it's the same for data ops and you know the other part that strikes me and listening to you is scale and it's not just about you know scale with the cloud operating model it's also about what you're talking about is you know the auto classification the automated metadata you can't do that manually you've got to be able to do that in order to scale with automation that's another key part of data Ops is it not it's well it's a big part of the value proposition and a lot of a part of the business base right then you and I started in this business you know and Big Data became the thing people just move all sorts of data sets to these Hadoop clusters without capturing the metadata and so as a result you know in the last 10 years this information is out there but nobody knows what it means anymore so you can't go back with the army of people and have them query these data sets because a lot of the contact was lost but you can use automated technology you can use automated machine learning with natural under Snatcher Alang guaa Jing to do a lot of the heavy lifting for you and a big part of data ops workflows and building these pipelines is to do what we call management-by-exception so if your algorithms say you know 80% confident that this is a phone number and your organization has a you know low risk tolerance that probably will go to an exception but if you have a you know a match algorithm that comes back and says it's 99 percent sure this is an email address right and you I have a threshold that's 98% it will automate much of the work that we used to have to do manually so that's an example of how you can automate eliminate manual work and have some human interaction based on your risk threshold now that's awesome I mean you're right the no schema on right said I throw it into a data leg the data link becomes the data swap we all know that joke okay I want to understand a little bit and maybe you have some other examples of some of the use cases here but there's some of the maturity of where customers are I mean it seems like you got to start by just understanding what data you have cataloging it you're getting your metadata act in order but then you've got a you've got a data quality component before you can actually implement and get yet to insight so you know where our customers on the on the maturity model do you have any other examples that you can share yeah so when we look at our data ops maturity model we tried to simplify it I mentioned this earlier that we try to simplify it so that really anybody can get started they don't have to have a full governance framework implemented to take advantage of the benefits data ops delivers so what we did we said if you can categorize your data ops programs into really three things one is how well do you know your data do you even know what data you have the second one is and you trust it like can you trust its quality can you trust its meeting and the third one is can you put it to use so if you really think about it when you begin with what data do you know right the first step is you know how are you determining what data you know the first step is if you are using spreadsheets replace it with a data catalog if you have a department line of business catalog and you need to start sharing information with the departments then start expanding to an enterprise level data catalog now you mentioned data quality so the first step is do you even have a data quality program right have you even established what your criteria are for high quality data have you considered what your data quality score is comprised of have you mapped out what your critical data elements are to run your business most companies have done that for they're they're governed processes but for these new initiatives and when you identify I'm in my example with the Kovach crisis what products are we gonna help bring to market quickly I need to be able to find out what the critical data elements are and can I trust it have I even done a quality scan and have teams commented on its trustworthiness to be used in this case if you haven't done anything like that in your organization that might be the first place to start pick the critical data elements for this initiative assess its quality and then start to implement the workflows to remediate and then when you get to putting it to use there's several methods for making data available you know one is simply making a data Mart available to a small set of users that's what most people do well first they make a spreadsheet of the data available but then if they need to have multiple people access it that's when like a data Mart might make sense technology like data virtualization eliminates the need for you to move data as you're in this prototyping phase and that's a great way to get started it doesn't cost a lot of money to get a virtual query set up to see if this is the right join or the right combination of fields that are required for this use case eventually you'll get to the need to use a high performance ETL tool for data integration but Nirvana is when you really get to that self-service data prep where users can query a catalog and say these are the data sets I need it presents you a list of data assets that are available I can point and click at these columns I want as part of my you know data pipeline and I hit go and it automatically generates that output for data science use cases for a Cognos dashboard right that's the most mature model and being able to iterate on that so quickly that as soon as you get feedback that that data elements are wrong or you need to add something you can do it push button and that's where data observation to bring organizations to well Julie I think there's no question that this kovat crisis is accentuated the importance of digital you know we talk about digital transformation a lot and it's it's certainly real although I would say a lot of people that we talk to will say well you know not on my watch or I'll be retired before that all happens will this crisis is accelerating that transformation and data is at the heart of it you know digital means data and if you don't have your data you know story together and your act together then you're gonna you're not going to be able to compete and data ops really is a key aspect of that so you know give us a parting word all right I think this is a great opportunity for us to really assess how well we're leveraging data to make strategic decisions and if there hasn't been a more pressing time to do it it's when our entire engagement becomes virtual like this interview is virtual write everything now creates a digital footprint that we can leverage to understand where our customers are having problems where they're having successes you know let's use the data that's available and use data ops to make sure that we can iterate access that data know it trust it put it to use so that we can respond to those in need when they need it Julie Locker your incredible practitioner really hands-on really appreciate you coming on the Kuban and sharing your knowledge with us thank you okay thank you very much it was a pleasure to be here all right and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Volante for the cube and we will see you next time [Music]

[Music] hi and welcome to this cube conversations in the cube in the cube Studios in Palo Alto California I'm your host Sonia - Gauri and today we're joined by Justin Warren the chief analyst and managing director for pivot 9 Justin welcome to the cube thanks for having me absolutely so tell us more about pivot 9 and more about your role yes so I found a pivot 9 back in 2011 and we help customers with their positioning in marketing and their messaging that's most of what we do these days we have a background in infrastructure enterprise consulting so we most of our clients tend to be focused on the enterprise and we also perform a bunch of analyst services basic research and understanding what the market is doing which helps us to to advise our clients on what makes a good position and message to take into the market that's great and you also founded this company so tell us about how you started this company and how you navigated funding well we're entirely so funded and have been profitable for for a while now it was kind of an accident in in the early days my background was in all traditional kind of consulting working with his clients on actually building infrastructure so I've done time in the trenches in in most of the different fields so I was once a DBA rapidly de-skilling and I got bored and decided that fairly company seemed like a good idea which was of course insane as anyone who is founded the company will gladly tell you but it has worked out okay for me in the end that's great and you're also you also do a couple other things you're a co-host on the cube or you're a host on the cube and you're also contributor of Forbes so tell us about how you got into hosting the cube and how that experience has been like for you host oh you can it was was kind of a happy accident I had known Stu for many years and an opportunity came up which I happened to be at a conference that he was he was at and said hey would you like to come on the cube and do a little bit of hosting and I will we said yes and have been doing a bit of it ever since every every now and again so yeah well it's when I happened to be at the same place and I do go to most of the major tech conferences it's it's always a pleasure to come on and guest host the Q but a little bit that's awesome and we love having you on the cube and you're also contributor on Forbes so tell us more about what articles you write what what topics in fields you mostly focus on yes oh uh mostly there I focus on enterprise and and cloud a little bit of networking and information security those are my interests and and it's my background so I know the enterprise technology field pretty well and now it's just interesting it gives me an opportunity to talk to a lot of different customers and find out or both customers and vendors and find out how they think about the market what what are they trying to build why are they trying to do that and whenever I'm talking to them I'm always trying to find a way that I can educate the audience about what what this means for them so it does dovetail nicely with the work we do through pivot nine but I just found it personally interesting and quite useful to be able to communicate what people are really doing and why it's why it's a good idea I think a lot of my readers value that that honesty and the insight that they get from that writing I certainly that's what they've told me so I like listening to customer feedback so if they tell me that I start to suck then I'll have to change what I do it but until when I'll keep doing it the way up and doing it that's awesome Justin thank you so much for being on the Kuban we really appreciate you have having you here no problem thank you so much absolutely thank you so much for watching the cube this has been a cube conversation at the cube studios and pellet [Music] you [Music]

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back. Everyone's two cubes Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS reinforce. This is Amazon Web services Inaugural conference around Cloud security There first of what? Looks like we'll be more focused events around deep dive security to reinvent for security. But not no one's actually saying that. But it's not a summit. It's ah, branded event Reinforce. We're hearing Mark Ryland off director Office of the Sea. So at eight of us, thanks for coming back. Good to see you keep alumni. Yeah, I'm staying here before It's fun. Wait A great Shadow 80 Bucks summit in New York City Last year we talked about some of the same issues, but now you have a dedicated conference here on the feedback from the sea. So as we've talked to and the partners in the ecosystem is, it's great to have an event where they go deep dives on some of the key things that are really, really important to security. Absolutely. This is really kind of a vibe that how reinvents started, right? So reinventing was a similar thing for commercial. You're deep, not easy to us. Three here, deeper on Amazon. But with security. Yeah, security lens on some of the same issues. One thing that happened >> and kind of signal to us that we needed an event like this over the years with reinvent was consistently over the years, the security and compliance track became one of the most important tracks that was oversubscribed in overflow rooms and like, Hey, there's a signal here, right? And so, but at the same time, we wanted to be able to reach on audience. Maybe they wouldn't go to reinvent because they thought I'd say It's all the crazy Dale Ops guys were doing this cloud thing. But now, of course, they're getting the strong message in their security organizations like, Hey, we're doing cloud. Or maybe as a professional, I need to really get smart about this stuff. So it's been a nice transition from still a lot of the same people, but definitely the different crowd that's coming here and was a cross pollination between multiple and I was >> just at Public sector summit. They about cyber security from a national defense and intelligence standpoint. Obviously, threesome Carlson leads That team you got on the commercial side comes like Splunk who our data and they get into cyber. So you started to see kind of the intersection of all the kind of Amazon ecosystems kind of coming around security, where it's now part of its horizontal. It's not just these are the security vendors and partners writes pretty much everyone's kind of becoming native into thinking about security and the benefits that you guys have talk about that what Amazon has to have a framework, a posture. Yeah, they call it shared responsibility. But I get that you're sharing this with the ecosystem. Makes sense. Yeah, talk about the Amazon Web service is posture for this new security >> world. Well, the new security world is if you look at like a typical security framework like Mist 853 120 50 controls all these different things you need to worry about if you're a security professional. And so what eight obvious able to do is say, look, there's a whole bunch of these that we can take care of on your behalf. There's some that we'll do some things and you got to do some things and there's some There's still your responsibility, but we'll try to make it easy for you to do those parts. So right off the bat we can get a lot of wins from just hey, there's a lot of things will just take care of. And you could essentially delegate to us. And for the what remain, You'll take your expertise and you'll re focus it on more like applications security. There still may be some operating systems or whatever. If using virtual machine service, you still have to think about that. But even there, we'll use we have systems Manager will make it easy to do patch management, updating, et cetera. And if you're willing to go all the way to is like a lambda or some kind of a platform capability, make it super easy because all you gotta do is make sure your code is good and we'll take care of all the infrastructure automatically on your behalf so that share responsibility remains. There's a lot of things you still need to be careful about and do well, but your experts can refocus. They could be very you know like it's just a lot less to worry about it. So it's really a message for howto raise the bar for the whole community, but yet still have >> that stays online with the baby value properties, which is, you know, build stuff, ship fast, lower prices. I mazon ethos in general. But when you think about the core A. W. S what made it so great Waas you can reduce the provisioning of resource is to get something up and running. And I think that's what I'm taking away from the security peace you could say. We know Amazon Web service is really well, and we're gonna do these things. You could do that so us on them and then parts to innovate. So I get that. That's good. The other trend I want to get your reaction to is comments we've had on the Cube with si SOS and customers is a trend towards building in house coding security. Your point about Lambda some cool things air being enabled through a B s. There's a real trend of big large companies with security teams just saying, Hey, you know what? I wanna optimize my talent to code and be security focused on use cases that they care about. So you know, Andy Jazz talks about builders. You guys are about builders you got cos your customers building absolutely. Yet they don't want Tonto, but they are becoming security. So you have a builder mindset going on in the big enterprises. >> Yes, talk about that dynamic. That's a That's a really important trend. And we see that even in security organizations which historically were full of experts but not full of engineers and people that could write code. And what we're seeing now is people say, Look, I have all this expertise, but I also see that with a software defined the infrastructure and everything's in a P I. If I pair up in engineering team with a security professional team, then well, how good things will happen because the security specials will say, Gosh, I do this repetitive task all the time. Can you write code to do that like, Yeah, we can write code to do that. So now I can focus on things that require judgment instead of just more rep repetitive. So So there's a really nice synergy there, and our security customers are becoming builders as well, and they're codifying if you moment expression in code, a policy that used to be in a document. And now they write code this as well. If that policy is whatever password length or how often we rode a credentials, whatever the policy is where Icho to ensure that that actually happening. So it's a real nice confluence of security expertise with the engineering, and they're not building the full stack >> themselves. This becomes again Aki Agility piece I had one customer on was an SMS business. They imported to eight of US Cloud with three engineers, and they wrote all the Kuban aged code themselves. They could have used, you know, other things, but they wanted to make sure it's stable so they could bring in some suppliers that could add value. So, again, this is new. Used to be this way back in the old days, in House developers build the abs on the mainframe, build the APS on the mini computers and then on I went to outsourcing, so we're kind of back. The insourcing is the big trend now, >> right in with the smaller engineering team, I can do a lot that used to require so many more people with a big waterfall method and long term projects. And now I take all these powerful building blocks and put an engineering team five people or what we would call it to pizza team five or six people off to the side, given 34 weeks, and they can generate a really cool system that would have required months and not years before. So that's a big trend, and it applies across the board, including two security. >> I think there's a sea change, and I think it's clear what I like about this show is this cloud security. But it's also they have the on premises conversation, Mrs Legacy applications that have been secured and or need to be secured as they evolve. And then you got cloud native and all these things together where security has to be built in. Yeah, this is a key theme, so I want to get your thoughts on this notion of built in security from Day one. What's your what's your view on this? And how should customers start thinking >> about it? And >> what did you guys bringing to the table? Well, I think that's just a general say maturation that goes on in the industry, >> whether it's cloud or on Prem is that people realize that the old methods we used to use like, Hey, I'm gonna build a nap And then I'm gonna hand it to the security team and they're gonna put firewalls around it That's not really gonna have a good result. So security by design, having security is equal co aspect of If I'm getting doing an architecture, I look a performance. I look, it cost. I look at security. It's just part of my system designed. I don't think of it as like a bolt on afterwards, so that leads to things like, you know, Secure Dev ops and kind of integration teams through. This could be happening on premises to it's just part of I T. Modernization. But Cloud is clearly a driver as well, and cloud makes it easier because it's all programmable. So things that are still manual on premises, you can do in a more automated getting into a lot of conversations here under the covers, A lot of under the hood conversations here around >> security BC to one of the most popular service is you guys have obviously compute a big part of the mission Land, another of the feature VPC traffic flows, where mirroring was a big announcement. Like we talked about that a lot of talking about the E c two nitro. You gave a talk on that. Did you just unpacked it a little bit because this has been nuanced out there. It's out there people are interested in. What's that talk about inscription is, is in a popular conversation taking minutes? Explain your talk. Sure, So we've talked for now a year and 1/2 >> about how we've essentially rien. Imagine reinvented our virtual machine architecture, too. Go from a primarily soft defined system where you have a mainboard with memory and intel processor and all that kind of a coup treatments of a standard server. And then your virtual ization layer would run a full copy of an operating system, which we call a Dom zero privileged OS that would mediate access between the guest OS is in this and the outside world because it would maintain the device model like how do I talk to a network card? How I talked to a storage device. I talked through the hyper visor, but through also a dom zero Ah, copy of Lennox. A copy of Windows to do all that I owe. So what we just did over the past few years, we begin to take all the things we're running inside that privileged OS and move that into dedicated hardware software, harbor combination where we now have components we call nitro components their actual separate little computers that do dbs processing. They do vpc processing they do instance, storage. So at this point now, we've taken all of the components of that damn zero. We've moved it out into these You could call Cho processors. I almost think of them is like the Nitro controllers. The main processor and the Intel motherboard is a co processor where customer workloads run because the trust now is in these external all systems. And when you go to talk to the outside world from easy to now you're talking through these very trusted, very powerful co processors that do encryption. They do identity management for you. They do a lot of work that's off the main processor, but we can accelerate it. We could be more assured that it's trustworthy. It can it can protect itself from potential types of hacks that might have been exposed if that, say, an encryption key was in the and the main motherboard. Now it's not so it's a long story until one hour version and doing three minutes now. But overall we feel that we built a trustworthy system for virtual. What was the title of talk so people can find it online? So I was just called the night to architecture security implications of the night to architecture. So it's taking information that we had out there. But we're like highlighting the fact that if you're a security professional, you're gonna really like the fact that this system has it has no damn zero. It has no shell. You can't log into the system as a human being. It's impossible to log in. It's all software to find suffer driven, and all the encryption features air in these co processors so we can do like full line made encryption of 100 gigabits of network traffic. It's all encrypted like that's never been done before. Really, in the history of computing, what's the benefit of nitro architectural? Simply not shelter. More trust built into it a trusted root. That's not the main board encryption, off load and more isolation. Because even if I somehow we're toe managed to the impossible combination of facts to get sort of like ownership of that main board, I still don't have access to the outside world. From there, I have to go through a whole another layer of very secure software that mediates between the inner world of where customer were close run and the outside world where the actual cloud is. So it's just a bunch of layers that make things more secure, >> and I'm sure Outpost will have that as well. Can you waste on that? Seem to me to hear about that. Okay, Encryption, encrypt everything. Is it philosophy we heard in the keynote? You also talked about that as well. Um, encrypting traffic on the hour. I didn't talk about what that means. What was talked to you? What's the big conversation around? Encryption within a. W s just inside and outside. What's the main story there? >> There's a lot of pieces to the pie, but a big one that we were talking about this week is a pretty long term project we call Project lever. It was actually named after a ah female cryptographer. Eventually Park team that was help. You know, one of the major factors, including World War Two, are these mathematicians and cryptographers. So we we wanted to do a big scale encryption project. We had a very large scale network and we had, you know, all the features you normally have, but we wanted to make it so that we really encrypted everything when it was outside of our physical control. So we done that took a long time. Huge investment, really exciting now going forward, everything we build. So any time data that customers give to us or have traffic between regions between instances within the same region outside reaches, whenever that traffic leaves our physical control so kind of our building boundaries or gates and guards and going down the street on a fiber optic to another data center, maybe not far away or going inter continent intercontinental links are going sub oceanic links all those links. Now we encrypt all the traffic all the time. >> And what's the benefit of that? So the benefit of that is there. Still, you know, it's it's obscure, >> but there is a threat model where, you know, governments have special submarines that are known to exist that go in, sniff those transoceanic links. And potentially a bad guy could somehow get into one of those network junction points or whatever. Inspect traffic. It's not, I would say, a high risk, but it's possible now. That's a whole nother level of phishing attacks. Phishing attack, submarine You're highly motivated to sniff that line couldn't resist U. S. O. So that's now so people could feel comfortable that that protection exists and even things like here's a kind of a little bit of scare example. But we have customers that say, Look, I'm a European customer and I have a very strong sense of regional reality. I wanna be inside the European community with all my data, etcetera, and you know, what about Brexit? So now I've got all this traffic going through. A very large Internet peering point in London in London won't be part of Europe anymore according to kind of legal norms. So what are you doing in that case? Unless they Well, how about this? How about if yes, the packets are moving through London, but they're always encrypted all the time. Does that make you feel good? Yeah, that makes me feel good. I mean, I so my my notion of work as extra territorial extra additional congee modified to accept the fact that hey, if it's just cipher text, it's not quite the same as unscripted. >> People don't really like. The idea of encrypted traffic. I mean, just makes a lot of sense. Why would absolutely Why wouldn't you want to do that right now? Final question At this event, a lot of attendee high, high, high caliber people on the spectrum is from biz dab People building out the ecosystem Thio Hardcore check. He's looking under the hood to see SOS, who oversee the regime's within companies, either with the C i O or whatever had that was formed and every couple is different. But there's a lot of si SOS here to information security officers. You are in the office of the Chief Security Information officer. So what is the conversations they're having? Because we're hearing a lot of Dev ops like conversations in the security bat with a pretty backdrop about not just chest undead, but hack a phone's getting new stuff built and then moving into production operations. Little Deb's sec up So these kinds of things, we're all kind of coming together. What are you hearing from those customers inside Amazon? Because I know you guys a customer driven in the customers in the sea SOS as your customer. What are they saying? What are they asking for? So see, so's our first getting their own minds around >> this big technical transformations that are happening on dhe. They're thinking about risk management and compliance and things that they're responsible for. They've got a report to a board or a board committee say, Hey, we're doing things according to the norms of our industry or the regulated industries that we sit in. So they're building the knowledge base and the expertise and the teams that can translate from this sort of modern dev ops e thing to these more traditional frameworks like, Hey, I've got this oversight by the Securities Exchange Commission or by the banking regulators, or what have you and we have to be able to explain to them why our security posture not only is maintained, it in some ways improved in these in this new world. So they're they're challenge now is both developing their own understanding, which I think they're doing a good job at, but also kind of building this the muscle of the strength. The terminology translate between these new technologies, new worlds and more traditional frameworks that they sit within and people who give oversight over them. So you gotta risk. So there's risk committees on boards of these large publics organizations, and the risk committees don't know a lot about cloud computing. So s O they're part of what they do now is they do that translation function and they can say, Look, I've I've got assurance is based on my work that I do in the technology and my compliance frameworks that I could meet the risk profiles that we've traditionally met in other ways with this new technology. So it's it's a pretty interesting >> had translations with the C I A. Certainly in public sector, those security oriented companies, a cz well, as the other trend, they're gonna educate the boards and they're secure and not get hacked the obsolete. And then there's the innovation side of it. Yeah, we actually gotta build out. Yes. This is what we just talked about a big change for our C says. That we talk to and work with all the time is that hey, we're in engineering community now. We didn't used to write a lot of code, and now we do. We're getting strong in that way. Or else we're parting very closely with an engineering team who has dedicated teams that support our security requirements and build the tools. We need to know that things are going well from our perspective. So that's a really cool, I think, changing that. I think that is probably one >> of my favorite trends that I see because he really shows the criticality of security was pretty much all critically, only act. But having that code coding focus really shows that they're building in house use case that they care about and the fact that I can now get native network traffic. Yeah, and you guys are exposing new sets of service is with land and other things >> over the top. >> It just makes for a good environment to do these clouds. Security things. That seems to be the show >> in a nutshell. Yeah, I think that's one of the nice thing about this show. Is It's a very positive energy here. It's not like the fear and scary stuff sometimes hear it. Security conference is like a the sky's falling by my product kind of thing Here. It's much more of a collaborative like, Hey, we got some serious challenges. There's some bad guys out there. They're gonna come after us. But as a community using new tooling, new techniques, modern approaches, modernization generally like let's get rid of a lot of these crusty old systems we've never updated for 10 or 20 years. It's a positive energy, which is really exciting. Good Mark, get your insights out. So this is your wheelhouse Show. Congratulations. >> You got to ask you the question. Just take your see. So Amazon had off just as an industry participant riding this way, being involved in it. What is the most important story that needs to be told in the press? In the media that should be told what's as important. Either it's being told it, then should be amplified or not being told and be written out. What's the What's the top story? I don't think that even after all this time that you know when people >> hear public cloud computing. They still have this kind of instinctive reaction like, Oh, that sounds kind of scary or a little bit risky and, you know, way need to get to the point where those words don't elicit some sense of risk in people's minds, but rather elicit like, Oh, cool, that's gonna help me be secure instead of being a challenge. Now that's a journey, and people have to get there, and our customers who go deep, very consistently, say, And I'm sure you've had them say to you, Hey, I feel more confident in my cloud based security. Then I do my own premises security. But that's still not the kind of the initial reaction. And so were we still have a ways, a fear based mentality. Too much more >> of a >> Yeah. Modernization base like this is the modern way to get the results in the outcomes I want, and cloud is a part of that, and it doesn't not only doesn't scare me, I want to go there because it's gonna take a community as well. Yeah, Mark, thanks so much for coming back on the greatest. Be hearing great Mark Mark Riley, direct of the office of the chief information security at Amazon Web services here, sharing his inside, extracting the signal. But the top stories and most important things >> being being >> said and discussed and executed here, it reinforced on the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen brought to you by bread. >> Welcome back to the Cube and our continuing coverage here. The Red had summit. This is six time around for us. Fifth time for stew minimum. So he still gets almost the perfect attendance. Goldmark. First time for me. So still have a lot of catching up to do. Stewed minimum. John Walls and Steve Spiker now joins us. He is the senior principal product manager. Developer tools, Red Hat and Steve. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Let's just talk about first off development in general. I mean, there's a lot of give and take there, right? You're tryingto listen. What air? The needs. Where the deficiencies, Where can the improvements be made? But how much do you drive that on your side and how much do listen and respond to do what? You're here for. The community. >> Yeah, we do a little bit of both. And so a lot of it is responding to the community, and that's one of the areas that Red has really excelled. Is taking what's popular, what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable pot product or stable solution that developers can use. But we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present. So we start from, like, various run times to actually contain our platforms. And so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help Dr Phil that because we hear it from customers a lot, it's like things you're doing are great. But like there's all these projects that need to come together sort of a product or unified experience. And so we spent a lot of our time China bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different task and also focus across like not just a job run times which we have a lot of job. >> So you might have it. You might have an in product in mind, right? And you realize that there might be a gap in terms of development, so you encourage or you try to bridged that gap a little bit. To get to that in product is that you're saying Yeah, >> so we do a lot of things to help build the pieces so that people can sometimes build their own experiences. They want. In the end, developers control kind of their own destiny, their own set of tools and a lot of customers have their own unique requirements, even like some tools they develop in house for loans, kind of regulatory reasons and other things. And so we have two, one build the pieces but also stitched the pieces together to help them have that kind of out of the box experience. Because some some customers really don't want to do that. They just want to say one kind of a turnkey solution. But then we may need to make some adjustments here and there. >> Yeah, but by Steve, you know, it's it's funny. It rhymes for me with what I saw, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago with Lennox. A lot of changes, a lot of pieces. I want to take advantage of it. But you know, a boy can somebody help me with this and you know that that's of course. Red hat rode that way pretty well right Today, cupidity is even more sprawling. There's so many different projects. There's so many pieces boy. It is complicated on DH. Therefore, how do we take advantage of that? What do I need to know? What can my platform a vendor do for me so that I don't have to manage that? Yeah, I love you. Spanned on that gives us a little bit of comparing trash. You know what's the same? What's different? Yeah, and so >> there's different aspects. I think the developer experience one thing that we talked about. It's like it just works sometimes. So, like it's if it's Cooper days. We've spent a lot time making sure it's hardened and works well. So you're not like debugging it, spending time on things that waist development time. Instead, That way, folks let on that. We also look at how we can build abstraction layers on top of that. So we built a Seelye tool called Rodeo, which is a developed, streamlined developer experience for open shift, and it's really focused on open ship. That way, that developer really just can focus on their application. They could deploy it, taken quickly, work on the changes before they commit to get, and then they can then also have a similar experience in the browser with things like Eclipse Jr Code or Dick workspaces are I got commercial offering behind that and that takes actually using the platform itself to do development, which is really, really super cool so that you can have an idea and the browser. You can also have the workspace like you're all your dependencies, like everything you would normally have on your laptop now don't need to worry about. It's now containerized and quickly spun up as a way to do development. And it's really a thing that enterprises really enjoy because they get like, quick satisfaction, like they get the stuff off the proprietary code off the death up there using their container platform, and it's building the same way they would build when they >> deployed my backgrounds on the infrastructure side. And the whole reason we have infrastructure to be able to run our abs and the Holy Grail we've wanted is you know, not not my developers. I shouldn't need to think about the stuff underneath, right? We looked at virtual ization. We look a container ization. You know, the nirvana of server lists, as they call it, is that I shouldn't have to think about that you know how we doing? Because at the end of the day, and I talked to users like Oh, jeez, well, I need to worry. What if something breaks? I need to understand the security for my environment. You know what you're seeing and talking to customers about it from there. Stop development. Yes, so they're able >> tto. It's like here's different stories, like Tool, Factor act. So it's like if you stay in certain parameters, you can have a lot of success, and that's still kind of true today. Survivalist kind of takes that to the next level, where you can really just have a predefined either a function spectacle o two and then things are really easy, and you don't have to worry about various aspects. But even though you look at the various vendors when you're working with different functions, it's even complex like, Oh, I need to provide the security on you. Make sure he sees a wire together. How do I log these things? How do I debugged when things across this mesh go wrong? And so it's like it's getting getting better. But there's still a lot of work to do to continue to improve that, and you will see a lot of innovation happening in that area, especially the work that we're working on. >> What kind of given take do you have in terms of what? Not only what is that community learning from you and the tools that you're providing them? But what are you getting back from that other than, you know, advancing a project or whatever, in terms of expertise, in terms of understanding, maybe a new wayto to build a different mouse trap. You know that someone comes up with an interesting idea. You're like, >> Wow, I >> didn't take that. Yeah, I think that's >> where, like the partnerships we've had with various companies before you go off starting out with Cooper Netease Anything in the Cave Native project last year. And that really took a different way of looking at serve elicit, moving it forward to say, Yeah, this is this is a different way. We thought about how we would do this on Cooper nowadays, even kind of like you abstract that ap I away. And it's like it's just to keep native of survivalists and then Karina use this kind of implementation detail behind that even and So that's really interesting to see things like that. And then also the recent work announcements with Microsoft and the azure functions where people like they maybe, you know, into the event sources there they would make sure that were close. That they're doing the functions are building, are running on Cooper Netease and our communities is is open shift. So it's really kind of completing the life cycle. >> So what if we could just step act, you know, if you talk about communities and open ships specifically, you've got you know, you've got partnership with Google and they've got the geeky and Antos stuff. You've got partnership for the Amazon, you know, they've got a ks, these things, they're not fully seamless and interoperable. It's, you know, I usually hear some confusion in the marketplace as to, you know, communities can run lots of places, but all the various you know, if you choose an implementation well, that your implementation and you should run that everywhere. Not I can't take all the various implementations and they're not inter swappable. So maybe you could help expand on that A little bit is toe, you know what's the goal? Where are we with this maturity here and you know, where do we need it to get? Because, you know, boy, it definitely is a little bit complicated. Least, you know, from the seat that I sit in Yeah. So it's >> somewhat complex, I think, goes back to your early days talking about letting she's like you would say you have an application that could run anywhere. They have Lenox this kind of truth. You know, there's always like certain security settings or packages you have enabled. That just holds true for elected Kuban aged world as well. You can lock it down a certain way. You could open it up a certain way. And so you see a lot of content that's delivered, assuming certain like privileges I have on the system and other systems that don't allow it. And so I think, more and more we see through the standardization something we could study in conformance testing. It really helps people like No, we want our getting in their hands. On an instance. It's really, you know, a full fledged communities or the part that they care about the most is working out well. And so I see that gave me the evil by also see tools that kind of abstract, even more so like a native, is a mentioned sort of survivalist workloads or functions themselves and then even house tool in kind of works. On top of that, like Natively understands the platform, that platform and those requirements to move those applications across the different systems because we have a lot of customers who run open ship communities as well as like many other good bearnaise kind of instances that so they have. We have this requirement to make sure we stay conforming, allow them to make sure the were closer portable, and it's an important part to move forward. So I still think there's a lot of work to be done toe to make these things a smoother processes. It's a lot of interesting things going on, though, >> So any interesting tens with workloads that's one of things we always look at is, you know, um, I just taking the old workloads. Am I doing them in a new place Or, you know, are there new new workloads and anything jumping out at you from customers that you talk to? >> Yes. So the way talk I know I mentioned several See multiple times a whole idea around this auto scaling. And Lou only losing your uplink your resources when you need to is a big deal. So we see a lot more and more of those kind of small function, single purpose things that are occurring up until, like, machine learning. Big data. It just continues. A GPU resource is we talked about running a V EMS and cos when I first heard this, like four years ago, I laughed out loud, and I really don't know. Their seriousness is something that happens. And, yeah, it's becoming mainstream now. So now kind of everything kind of fits within the current. You know, orchestrator of those workloads. >> You're not laughing anymore, right? No. No, because there's someone areas in which your concerns are certainly understandable securities. One of those a lot of attention being paid automation these days, right? And a lot of opportunity there. Is there one, or are there a couple areas where you say this is kind of where we have maybe greener pastures in terms of providing developers with really unusual tools are really more sophisticated, more complex or effective tools than than in any other area where you could use that kind of a boost. >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of things, but one thing that I see in this area is still a lot of fragmentation, like I'm not sure if I see you like this kind of a single way that things work, seeing a lot of great work, like with the Microsoft GS code tooling pieces. And I'm just saying that from an abstraction way to bring certain things together. Nice work going with Microsoft, the committee's plugging for there, and we were collaborating with them on that to extend it for some of the open shift use cases. But that just kind of moves, I think Mohr to beat the developers where they're at and will continue to invest across the different set of tools like I do, the more you keep up with these list of all these tools in the ecosystem. Everytime I present it, someone says, I don't know about those, but here's Maura that I didn't know about it, so this is just continues to grow and people continue to innovate, and I think it just think it's exciting because we continue Teo to evolve it. So I know think there's much in the way of kind of narrowing down on a smaller set of things. I think it's going to continue to expand in the sense. >> Speaking of expansion at Microsoft build yesterday, there was announcement of beloved Taquito K d a. A ce your functions with open shift. Help us parts a little bit. What, what that is. >> Yeah. So what that's about is really taking Thea's your functions and allowing those workloads to Warren on open ship because they're targeted towards Cuba. Netease and, of course, open ship those grenades distribution. So it allows that to happen. There's also that it's a unique auto scaler that kind of allows workload to be more surveillance run. So then also it's it ties into some of the azure event sorts of soul like thee. The message Cuba and bus Kafka that's there. And so now you can wire in yours your pieces, you can run it across here. Either hosted is your or on open shift with those of your function. >> Okay, just to clarify this is today separate from the K Native Initiative that you were talking about earlier. >> Yes, that's right. So this is touching on some of those points and the idea behind this project. This liken early preview announcer was like showing some progress, but they're looking in wiring in some of the chips. Start the kidney of serving pieces to allow running in those applications on open ship, but also the need of events sources. So you can take combination events and triggers your functions and do some of these exciting things. >> Can I ask you, you're doing sessions here at this show? You know how many of the people here you know, talking about survivalists and looking at that bleeding edge or there? There are other technologies that you find them spending a little bit more time in the tooling. It's >> a wide range. I'm really shocked by what some of the customers are like. Bleeding edge Kate made. It was like, Oh, you know, we saw whatever zero dot three release out there with this, and we'd really like this auto scaling capability because we're spending a lot of money running these applications that are not doing anything, So we like the better auto scaler that's out there. The others are really just like trying to understand more about container technology. I was just talking to Jen one early after a session. He's like, This is what we're trying to do. We need to contain your eyes applications. How do I build a CIA pipeline around it? So it's a It's a wide range of things you see here. Well, >> you certainly at the center of this inspiration, the innovation of the industry. I know you're an exciting place, and it's kind of something new every day for you. Probably right. >> Oh, it is. Yeah. Especially when these big conference and announcements come >> out. Gear up, right? Yeah, Exactly. Good job, Steve. Thank you for joining us here. We appreciate the time and wish you well down the road. >> Take me much. Enjoyed being on >> you, Steve Spiker from Red Hat. Joining this here for the first time on the Q. Good to have you, Steve. Good Have you with us as we continue our coverage from Boston. But the Red Hat Summit

brought to you by Red Hat well welcome back everyone this two cubes exclusive coverage here in San Francisco California for Red Hat summit 20:18 I'm John Ferreira co-host of the cube with my analyst co-host this week John Troy year co-founder of The Reckoning advisory services and our next guest is Arvind Krishna who's the senior vice president of hybrid cloud at IBM Reese and director of IBM Research welcome back to the cube good to see you hey John and John Wade you guys just kick it confuse get to John's here great to have you on because you guys are doing some deals with Red Hat obviously the leader at open source you guys are one of them as well contributing to Linux it's well documented the IBM has three books on your role relationship to Linux so yeah check check but you guys are doing a lot of work with cloud in a way that you know frankly is very specific to IBM but also has a large industry impact not like the classic cloud so I want to get who tie the knot here and put that together so first I got to ask you take a minute to talk about why you're here with red hat what's the update with IBM with Red Hat yeah great John thanks and thanks for giving me the time I'm going to talk about it in two steps one I'm going to talk about a few common Tenace between IBM and Red Hat and then I'll go from there to the specific news so for the context we both believe in Linux I think that's easy to state we both believe in containers I think that's the next thing to state and we'll come back and talk about containers because this is a world containers are linked to Linux containers are linked to these technologies called kubernetes containers are linked to how you make workloads portable across many different environments both private and public then I go on from there to say and we both believe in hybrid hybrid meaning that people want the ability to run their workload wherever they want beat on a private cloud beat on a public cloud and do it without having to rewrite everything as you go across okay so let's just average those are the market needs so then you come back and say an IBM as a great portfolio of middleware names like WebSphere and db2 and I can go on and on and rather has a great footprint of Linux in the enterprise so now you say we got the market need of hybrid we got these two things which between them of tens of millions maybe hundreds of millions of endpoints how do you make that need get fulfilled by this and that's what we just announced here so we announced that IBM middleware will run containerized on RedHat containers on Red Hat Enterprise Linux in addition we said IBM cloud private which is the ability to bring all of the IBM middleware in a sort of a cloud friendly form right you click and you install it keeps itself up it doesn't go down it's elastic in a set of technologies we call IBM cloud private running in turn on Red Hat open shift container service on Red Hat Linux so now for the first time if you say I want private I want public I want to go here I want to go there you have a complete certified stack that is complete I think I can say we are unique in the industry and giving you this this and this is where this is kind of where the fruit comes on the tree off the tree for you guys you know we've been good following you guys for years you know every where's the cloud strategy and first well it's not like you don't have a cloud strategy you have cloud products right so you have to deliver the goods you've got the system replays the market need we all knows the hybrid cloud multi-cloud choice cetera et cetera right you take Red Hat's footprint your capabilities your combined install base is foundational right so and nothing needs to change there's no lifting shift there's no rip and replace you can it's out there it's foundational now on top of it is where the action is that's what we're that's what were you kind of getting at right that's correct so so we can go into somebody there running let's say a massive online banking application or the running a reservation system is using technologies from Asus using Linux underneath and today it's all a bunch of piece parts you have a huge complex stuff it's all hard wired and rigidly nailed down to the floor in a few places and I can say hey I'll take the application I don't have to rewrite the application I can containerize it I can put it here and that same app now begins to work but in a way that's a lot more fluid in elastic well by the way I want to do a bit more work I want to expose a bit of it up as micro-services I want search Samia you can go do that you want to fully make it microservices enable to be able to make it as little components and digestible you can do that so you can take it in sort of bite-sized chunks and go from one to the other at the pace that you want and that's game-changing yeah that's what I really like about this announcement it really brings the best of breed together right you did you know there's a lot of talk about containers and legacy and we you know we've been talking about what goes where and do you have to break everything up like you were just saying but the the announcement today you know WebSphere the this the you know a battle-tested huge enterprise scale component db2 those things containerized and also in a framework like with IBM we either with IBM Microsoft things or others right that's um that's a huge endorsement for open shipped as a platform absolutely it is and look we would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit I mean we use the word containers and containers a lot yes you're right containers is a really really important technology but what containers enable is much more than prior attempts such as vm's and all have done containers really allow you to say hey I saw the security problem I solved the patching problem the restart problem all those problems that lie around the operations of a typical enterprise can get solved with containers VM sold a lot about isolating the infrastructure but they didn't solve as John was saying the top half of the stack and that's I think the huge power here yeah I want to just double click on that because I think the containers thing is instrument because you know first of all being in the media and loving what we do we're kind of a new kind of media company but traditional media has been throwing IBM under the bus and saying oh you know old guard and all these things but here's the thing you don't have to change anything you could containers you can essentially wrap it up and then bring a micro-services architecture into it so you can actually leverage at cloud scale so what interests me is is that you can move instantly value proposition wise pre-existing market cloud if I if you will with operational capabilities and this is where I like the cloud private so I want to kind of go with the ever second if I have a need to take what I have an IBM when it's WebSphere now I got developers I got installed base I'd have to put a migration plan away I containerize it thank you very much I do some cloud native stuff but I want to make it private my use case is very specific maybe it's confidential maybe it's like a government region whatever I can create a cloud operations is that right I can cloud apply it and run it absolutely correct so when you look at about private to go down that path we said well private allows you to run on your private infrastructure but I want all these abilities you just described John I want to be able to do micro services I want to be able to scale up and down I want to be able to say operations happen automatically so it gives you all that but in the private without having to go all the way to the public so if you cared a lot about you're in a regulated industry because you went down government or confidential data or you say this data is so sensitive I don't really I'm not going to take the risk of it being anywhere else it absolutely gives you that ability to go do that and and that is what we brought to our private to the market for and then you combine it with open shift and now you get the powers of both together so you guys essentially have brought to the table the years of effort with bluemix all that good stuff going on you can bring any he'd actually run this in any industry vertical pretty much right absolutely so if you look at what what the past has been for the entire industry it has been a lot about constructing a public cloud not just to us but us and our competition and a public cloud has certain capabilities and it has certain elasticity it has a global footprint but it does not have a footprint that's in every zip code or in every town or in every city that song ought to happen to the public cloud so we say it's a hybrid world meaning that you're going to run some bulk loads on a public cloud and like to run some bulk loads on a private and I'd like to have the ability that I don't have to pre decide which is where and that is what the containers the micro services the open ship that combination all gives you to say you don't need to pre decide you fucker you rewrite the workload on to this and then you can decide where it runs well I was having this conversation with some folks at and recent Amazon Web Services conference to say well if you go to cloud operations then the on-prem is essentially the edge it's not necessary then the definition of on-premise really doesn't even exist so if you have cloud operations in a way what is the data center then it's just a connected tissue that's right it's the infrastructure which you set up and then at that point the software manages the data center as opposed to anything else and that's kind of being the goal that we are all being wanted it sounds like this is visibility into IBM's essentially execution plan from day one we've been seeing in connecting the dots having the ability to take either pre-existing resources foundational things like red hat or whatnot in the enterprise not throwing it away building on top of it and having a new operating model with software with elastic scale horizontally scalable synchronous all those good things enabling micro search with kubernetes and containers now for the first time I could roll out new software development life cycles in a cloud native environment without foregoing legacy infrastructure and investment absolutely and one more element and if you want to insert some public cloud services into the environment beat in private or in public you can go do that for example you want to insert a couple of AI services into your middle of your application you can go do that so the environment allows you to do what he described and these additions we're talking about people for a second though the the titles that we haven't mentioned CIO you know business leader business unit leaders how are they looking at the digital transformation and business transformation in your client base as you go out and talk to us so let's take a hypothetical back and every bank today is looking about at simple questions how do i improve my customer experience and everyone in this a customer experience really do mean digital customer experience to make it very tangible and what they mean by that is how I get my end customer engaged with me through an app the apps probably on a device like this some smartphone we won't say what it is and and so how do you do that and so they say well well you were to check your balance you obviously want to maybe look at your credit card you want to do all those things the same things we do today so that application exists there is not much point in rewriting it you might do the UI up but it's an app that exists then you say but I also want to give you information that's useful to you in the context of what you're doing I want to say you can get a 10 second not a not a 30-day load but a ten-second law I want to make it offer to you in the middle of you browsing credit cards all those are new customer this thinks are hot where do you construct those apps how do you mix and match it how do you use all the capabilities along with the data you got to go do that and what we are trying to now say here is a platform that you can go all that do all that on right to that complete lifecycle you mentioned the development lifecycle but I got to add to the the data lifecycle as well as here is the versioning here are my area models all those things built in into one platform and scales are huge the new competitive advantage you guys are enabling that so I got to ask you on the question on on multi cloud I'll see as people start building out the cloud on pram and with public cloud the things you're laying out I can see that going on for a while a lot of work being done there we seeing that wiki bond had a true private cloud before I thought was truly telling a lot of growth they're still not going away public cloud certainly has grown the numbers are clear however the word multi clouds being kicked around I think it's more of a future state obviously but people have multiple clouds will have relationships with multiple clouds no one's gonna have one Klaus not a winner-take-all game winner take most but you're gonna have multiple clouds what does multi-cloud mean to you guys in your architecture because is that moving workloads in real time based upon spot pricing indexes or is that just co-locating on clouds and saying I got this SAP on that cloud that app on that cloud control plane did these are architectural questions it's the thing hell is multi cloud so these are today and then there is a tomorrow and then there is a long future state right so let's take today let's check IBM we're on Salesforce we're on service now we're on workday we're on SuccessFactors well all these are different clouds we run our own public cloud we run our own private cloud and we have traditional data center and we might have some of the other clouds also through apps that we bought that we don't even know okay so let's just toss I think every one of our clients is like this so multi cloud is here today I begin with that first simple statement and I need to connect the data and it comes connect when things go away the next step I think people nobody's gonna have only one even public cloud I think the big public clouds most people are gonna have to if not more that's today and tomorrow your channel partners have clouds by the way your global s lies all have clouds there's a cloud for crying out loud right so then you go into the aspirational state and that may be the one he said where people do spot pricing but even if I stay back from spot pricing and completely dynamic and of worrying about network and I'm worrying about video reach I just back up on to but I may decide it I have this app I run it on private well but I don't have all the infrastructures I want to bust it today and I've very robust it to I got to decide which public and how do I go there and that's a problem of today and we're doing that and that is why I think multi-cloud is here now not some pointed problem the problem statement there is latency managing you know service level agreements between clouds and so on and so forth governance where does my data go because there may be regulate regulate through reasons to decide where the data can flow and all the great point about the cloud I never thought about that way it's a good good illustration I would also say that I see the same argument of database world not everyone has db2 that everyone has Oracle number one has databases are everywhere you have databases part of IOT devices now so like no one makes a decision on the database similar was proud you're seeing a similar dynamic it's the glue layer that to me interest me as you how do you bring them together so holistically looking at the 20 mile stare in the future what is the integration strategy long term if you look at a distributed system or an operating system there has to be an architectural guiding principle for absolute integration you know well that's 30 years now in the making so we can say networking everybody had their own networking standards and the let's say the 80s though it probably goes back to the 70s right yeah an SN a tcp/ip you had NetBIOS TechNet deck that go on and on and in the end is tcp/ip that one out as the glue others by the way survived but in pockets and then tcp/ip was the glue then you can fast forward 15 years beyond that an HTTP became the glue we call that the internet then you can fast forward you can say now how to make applications portable and I would turn around and tell you that containers on linux with kubernetes as orchestration is that glue layer now in order to make it so just like in tcp/ip it wasn't enough to say tcp/ip you needed routing tables you needed DNS you needed name repositories you needed all those things similarly you need all those here I've called those catalogs and automation so that's the glue layer that makes all of this work this is important I love this conversation because I've been ranting on this in the queue for years you're nailed it a new stack is development DNS this is olden Internet infrastructure cloud infrastructure at the global scale is seeing things like Network effect okay we see blockchain in token economics like databases multiple database on structured data a new plethora of new things are happening that are building on top of say HTTP correct and this is the new opportunity this is the new the new platform which is emerging and it's going to enable businesses to operate you said at scale to be very digital to be very nimble application life cycles are not always going to be months they're gonna come down to days and this is what gets enabled so I want you to give your opinion personal or IBM or whatever perspective because I think you nailed the glue layer on cue and a stalker and these this new glue layer that and you made reference system things like HTTP and TCP which changed the industry landscape wealth creation new up new new brands emerged companies we've never heard of emerged out of this and we're all using them today we expect a new set of brands are gonna emerge new technologies and emerge in your expert opinion how gigantic is this swarm of new innovation gonna be just because you've seen many ways before in your view your mind's eye what are you expecting wouldn't share your your insight into how big of a shift and wave is this is going to be and add some color to that I think that if I take a take a shorter and then a longer term view in the short term I think that we said that this is on the order of 100 billion dollars that's not just our estimate I think even Gartner estimated about the same number that'll be the amount of opportunity for new technologies in what we've been describing and that is I think short term if I go longer term I think as much as 1/2 but at least 1/4 of the complete ID market is going to shift onto these technologies so then the winners are those that make the shift and then bye-bye clusion the losers of those who don't make this shift faster Afghan and stop the market moves that's that's he was interesting we used to like look at certain segments going back years oh this companies reap platform Ising we platforming they're their operative lift and shift and all this stuff what you're talking about here is so game-changing because the industries Reap lat forming that's a company that's it's an industry that's right any and I think the the the Internet era of 1995 to put that point it's perhaps the easiest analogy to what is happening not the not the emergence of cloud not the emergence of all that I think that was small steps what we're talking about now is back to the 1995 statement every vertical is upgrading their stack across the board from e-commerce to whatever that's right it's completely modernizing correct around cloud what we call digital transformation in a sense yes what not a big fan of the word but I lied I understand what you mean great insight our thanks for coming on the Kuban Sharon because we even get to some of the other good stuff but IBM and Red Hat doing some great stuff obviously foundational I mean Red Hat Tier one first-class citizen in every single enterprise and software environment you know now saw open source runs the world you guys you guys are no stranger to Linux being the first billion dollar investment going back so you guys have a heritage there so congratulations on the relationships that go around about ninety nine nine yeah and and I love the strategy hybrid cloud here at IBM and right at this the cube bring you all the action here in San Francisco I'm John for John Troy you're more live covers stay with us here in the cube Willie right back