>> No, that makes total sense. You've got me thinking a little bit. You see some of this right now going on general fitness and these thirty six minute classes will fit thirty six is awesome there. Big group No. One, their trainers. And they do a really good job of it. But the onset of maybe not such, um, high intensity aspects that you're doing. But you're promoting motor patterns, right? So it's not like, Okay, let's train for thirty six minutes. Generally was trained for forty five minutes. Let's train for an hour. But let's have a specific program that we're picking on to develop an athlete and push him in direction. So I mean by that is, I kind of see this in this is my attempt to digest cores. Mind not break it down and bring her with me. I thought you'd like to roost e a seven day period. And then you said in this period, I want to accomplish, you know, thiss five sets off total or five sets of ten reps and back squat and then your micro dose in mind like you, you slice it up, and so all of a sudden it doesn't become a five by ten because fifty total wrapped trying to get you won't take that ten reps here and twenty wraps here and maybe five reps here, and you put it in different ways. So if you look at it holistically, it's this very on the certainly first. See, it looks almost just organized, but looks like a lot happening at once. When you take us back, you look at a full truck, the full pies there, and so people they come and see me one of your workout So they see on Instagram that, oh, it's just Korea Doing, you know, appears to be basic patterns that kind of seem random. But really, you said, Okay, this is my goal. This is what I want from these guys and you're taking a step back. You applied it in a very strategic way. So it's not just people say, Oh, it's a fitness class. No, First off, Micro does seem just That's if I like, you know, a thirty minute workout. It's a thirty minute directed work out with the candle quantifiable goal over Baghdad, a period of time. Is that a fair assessment? I dove into the brain of Cory. No, my deal >> looked like this. Lookit. Let's look at another population. We look at prisoners when they go to the yard. How much time do they have a day? All right, >> You know what, >> Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, it's not a lot like they're locked up in a cell for the whole day. So when they go to the yard, they go ham on whatever's available, it ain't like they got this nice little hole like, Okay, we're going to do from squads. And they were gonna go to bench and they were going to Arlo, and we're going to do no. They pick something that is available and they go ham on it for an hour, and they're on really terrible food and really terrible environments, but tend to get really strong. Okay, well, that makes sense. So and you know what? They do it again the next day and the next day and the next day. So I'm not saying we're trained like prisoners, But what I'm saying is there's a reason why if I was to tell any elite level lifter, OK? All you can do today for thirty minutes is squad. What do you think's gonna happen? They're going to go heavy often. And they're going to be able to be fresh the next day to do the same thing. I mean, no one leaves a power lifting meet the next day saying, Oh, time to go train again. No, their body is trashed, right? Because of all the intensity that they didn't through multiple movements. Same idea, right? All I'm doing is isolating it. So, for instance, I'm looking for a specific response. If I want to train relative string, I want to find a movement that they can move a lot of way, obviously not through a high speed. And that's the movement we're going to do. If I want a absolute velocity, for instance, Woodchuck and Tendo terms, I want them to be very elastic. Reactive owned him to move very, very fast. Then I'm gonna pick a movement, say, like a barbell squad job. Maybe it's a credible swing. Maybe it's throws and then they're going to go ham on that. But if you just take that one isolated lift, I don't care. If you do tend doubles at it, you're not going to be that sword, especially if you've been doing this for over a year. First start the preseason. We gotta look at stress holistically. The biggest stress they have is basketball. So the last thing I'm going to do is beat them down. And here I'm just going to make sure that we'Ll stay on the cart. So you look at our total volume. It looks something like four sets of four. But by the time we're at the end of the season January, February, March, we're hitting our P R's and reason why we're hit Rp. Ours is because we've made this huge reservoir of stress that they're able tto handle. So now practises cut in half. So I have more reserves in the weight room. So that force that's afore we were hitting for those compound movements in preseason. Well, now they look like ten sets of doubles or twelve sets of singles because they have that reservoir. So now we're expressing in a controlled environment faster weights have your weights at the time of year that we're looking for those adaptations so that now we're quote unquote stronger and faster. We're trying to win the championship, not tryingto win it and the summer, which you generally see like thereby sent PR is before they go home and summer. Well, that's great. And then they go into their maintenance program for the season, which last six months. Can you maintain anything for longer than six? No, you can't, like, maybe your oil, but you've not wantto patients, you know? I'm saying so. You know, that's that's where it really came down to is I'm trying to find the best means to produce performance, >> so I'm on times Lower standard. Yeah. Please do not mind around it. So I get it correct. Nowhere earthly it's looking at How do we given work out at that? Fits? The current state needed the athlete, so Okay, there begin the year, right? Their capacity only so localize outside stressors to fit in the workout around the other twenty three hours. Right? And then you're applying a stressor that's heavy enough, but not too light. And you do it. I'm not not overly fatigued them, but at least stimulate them. So you working guide rails? Not a written in stone. A type of thing, >> right? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. How Basically how I how I keep the best part of the best way to put it is what I've done this year that I haven't done in the past is abuse Tendo Units, I'm just That's my way of just monitoring. How about speed? Okay, Cool, because load is one thing. But once again, how do you move that load now? We're not We're not dicing up like, Oh, it's point seven. You're supposed to hit point five like up. You know, add thirty kilos or vice versa, right? Like you're not exact. But if you're within a range, it gives me a whole lot of details, all right? And then you're basically all we do from that point is record the wait, not the speed. I just keep them in a certain zone. Stay within this. You, for instance, our strength speed or a relative strength and strength. Speed movements can't go anything more than triples our speed, strength and are absolute velocity. You can't go anything over five reps. If you hit quote unquote those triples or those fives, then the next time you come in, guess what we get to upload if you're not above that was going to stick with the same load. And if you prove it within your early work sex, then we'LL have a little bit alert. But that's our way of day to day, keeping them on the road, if you will. >> No, that makes sense. Do I couldn't agree more. I see it carrying over so well. Universally way you looked at the origins of strength training and we're like Oh, came from Russia and even your ever pashanski for those people aren't nerds like myself. Russian sports science even started like appeared ization. It's kind of a made up thing, right? So one hundred percent made up haven't made up and it kind of came from the four years cycle of Russia itself. America takes that andan. What happens is you get the the non athlete world's intelligent public world. Everything is monetized, right? So it's like, Okay, we know that training really heavy every days and probably a good. So we're going to make these things called, you know, in small little workouts that might last twenty five minutes are our six minutes, you know, have a shrink it as Lois and possibly can. But no, let's make it not necessarily difficult, but challenging. Um and we make money office. We labeled something different and you see different fitness fads come off when I come and go. But a lot of because I got the capitalistic market monetization. People try to make money off of things. But that really does him from, like the athletic side. If you're thinking about Hey, I'm Cory. I'm dealing with Alex. I don't know how they're going to walk into my door today. I don't know if they're going to be high lower, you know, just normal. How can I then give myself the opportunity to provide environment where they can work successfully and and what you do, which is really cool, And I find it really inspiring kind of cheesy word. But you give a lot of ownership to all your athletes when it comes to selection of exercises and movements. And I find that to be something that we don't say. We as in the general world of anything sports, science and fitness don't always like to do. Um, and you say Okay, you know, credit. I'm wrong, Corey to I don't want take worth mountains, him incorrectly. Just so you know, here's a pattern and maybe select one of these three exercises that you feel like gets you ready. And what's so great about that? It removes the constraints of this exercise is the best. You know, this is the golden exercise and really, I mean you and I know it, but we want to feel good. We would always have a bench press when I came in town, but absolutely, it's like, Okay, let's let's really understand that it's not really a difference between Aback Squad versus upfront squad versus may be something of a trap, our poll, especially if you're using it to get the athlete ready. So talk. If you could talk a little bit about how you decide some of that and what led you down that path and giving those athletes that kind of ownership and understanding of you know, I want to do this versus I have to >> do this right? I mean, to me, autonomy is everything, because what you generally see and it's to me, it's almost criminal is everyone gets the piece of paper. They fill it out with me you get, then you do the same thing, right? You get that piece of paper the next day, fill it out. Get that piece of paper. Next thing, fill it out. And then four years later you go. Well, I'm leaving now. Where's my piece of paper For the rest of my life. Oh, so you didn't really learn how to train, did you? You didn't really learn what worked for you. You didn't really In the really issue is like I deal with crazy, different levers. I mean, I got guys that are five eight all the way to seven foot. So you can't tell me there's a golden exercise that it doesn't exist in my world. >> I >> like knowing you're on. I would love to have everybody do the exact same thing. They love doing it. And they all do it very, very well so that I can have my little lab and I can have my control and I can show. Hey, guys, look how much better we got this year because of my implementation. Bax Wass What? What does that say? That says that I care more about what I'm doing more than what's best for that athlete and what they're doing if you really the real reason why I got to this autonomy stage is when I realized what I do is such a small percentage of their overall success and the reason why I say that I'm not necessarily saying I agree with hit or disagree with Hit, but you could have a hit program. You could have an Olympic based program. You could have your holistic based program, whatever you want to say, and I see the hit program Win a national championship and I'm like, what happened? Like I don't agree with that program, but they won well, it's all about it's all about the dude's. So if I can give quote unquote my dudes the best training environment that works for them. So what I mean by that is Look, here's a squad. You hate doing back squats because the bar on your back, it's jerking the hell out of your shoulders because you don't like to be an external rotation will. Then maybe I'm just going to hate. How about this Bar safety squad bar that feel better? Cool court. My knees are super tender away. It's basketball. Everybody's needs at some point this season, every a super tender last thing I'm going to do is put them in an environment. Teo, flame up those tendons so that they can't perform at a higher level on the basketball court. So what are we going to do? Well, let's Hinch, how about we just do some already? L stay. How about we do some kettle bell swings? Maybe some tribe are dead. Lift. It doesn't necessarily have to be this golden exercise that everybody fits in. And I think really what it stands from is that strength coaches got approved to their sport coaches that we'll look at, our numbers go up and they have to have a control to do that. And the exact opposite. It's a sport. Coaches coming down saying one of our guys bench. Well, if our sport coaches cares so much about bench press, well, then what do you think I got to do? Well, I gotta bench my guys so we could get those numbers so I could look like, you know, I'm validated my job. Well, how about we take something that's oh, universally accepted. So how about a counter movement? Jump out force plate. Now, I'm not saying everybody has forced plates, but you could just use jump height. Friend sits. Who cares how you got there? As long as you are trending right, that's all that matters. Why should we be fixated to a certain methodology or a certain pattern or not? Pattern but exercise. Just give them a pattern, let him choose. And to be honest with you, if it feels right, it's going to fly, right? If it feels good to do attract bar squat, opposed to doing a front squat well, they're probably gonna put more load and they put more load that I'm going to get the stress response adaptation. If I don't like the front squat because it's choking me the hell out. Well, then I'm probably not going to put his much load on it. Now, I have a negative connotation now have all these internal stress is going on, and then I'm gonna have a weird as look atyou, saying I don't like what we're doing in here. So now you think the quote unquote Byeon is going to be there. So now we're not getting any stresses that are going to give me that positive adaptation I'm looking for. So at the end of the day, if I can give them the education tto, learn how to do these movements and how to choose for themselves, well, then now it's not just what they did here for four years. I just gave them skills for the rest of their life. And if they're good enough to play pros now, they can take that and they can articulate it to the next coaching stuff so they could do a better >> job. No, that's that's awesome, man like this. A lot of things I want. I head into their I'LL keep it all Diamond all nine hundred promised. But I couldn't agree more and one of things that you say, you know, let's have a king P I They said jump high, for example, a point of reference. Then let's not care what we d'Oh, to the extent I mean not care. But let's not constrain ourselves of what we dio in order to improve that k p I. So the way I think about it, it's kind of like you ever use waze before that? Yes, that we got right. It knows to things and knows where you are. It knows where you were. If you're driving, it knows where you're going. Road. And then as okay, all I care about getting to point B So it will take you on detours left and right. Little Granny is driving slow in front of you for the pothole. If whatever is going to find the best way to get there, it doesn't care how it gets there, right, Right. And so work that it's say, OK, let's get the sevens environment where we can learn. And we know we need to get to be for me. And I'm not gonna say to go in a straight line because you might go through building and crashing hit pedestrians. We're gonna find a way to get to be. We're going to find a way that makes sense for the athlete and yourself. So my teaching them, you know, let's have you like and learn to do some of these movements then don't know taking a left at this next stop light to get to point B will be quicker than you saying go straight because they're the one in the driver's seat, right? And if that educational environment where you start to look at this a really complex system, her planting a really simple abie model and apply it to something as complex as the human body so that we can learn. And the example I give. It's like, you know, the ways part like, that's the more complex and assumptions we make more room for aeri half All right, we'Ll screw this. We assume that the sumo gets here. Well, if we assume in order to get to A to B, we got a one a two a three a four, a five. But any point on the line that, you know, assumption breaks, we don't get to be all right, you guys, you stuck at a whatever and doing. You know, we have to follow this waterfall method. It's very much a living method where things come in, things come out, things make you change. But you know what? You want to go? I >> mean, it's we work in team sports. Like the only objective we are the only objective that matters is wins and losses, period. Right? So if I wasn't a stopwatch sport, maybe my mind would change a little bit, right? Maybe I got okay. We need to drift towards this because literally it's did you get faster? Did you not get faster? Right? Swimming whatever you're doing, maybe these are the things we need to do more often to make that happen. But I'm dealing with incompetent. I mean great human beings, but just physically incompetent. There's still learning about their bodies were still growing into their bodies. I think it's the most arrogance thing that a strength coach could do is to say, Here's a program that's gonna get you better for six weeks. What? What is that? Even here's a block that's going to get youto point me. How do you know Like, till you know Saddamist like, can you honestly tell me that following this six week plan is doing that? Hey, they got sport practice. They got exams, they got pick up your tell me none of those factors could potentially there off your little plan or that your little plan can go up. They're KP eyes, if you will, or their Their goal is just a play basketball. So that to me, that's where as this thing, it's like the most arrogant thing in our field and it just drives me up the wall. But the other day, like I got a sport coach who has all the faith in the world of me gives me the keys to the castle. He just tells me, Do what you think is best. I I report the numbers that he doesn't even know he needs. That's what's awesome about he's like Chord. I just trust you like these were things that I want to see my guys do. We want a quote unquote play fast. Well, okay, here's some standards that we can set And these Airways that we know we got quote unquote faster. Now, from the technical tactical aspect, that's where you guys come in and you guys got it. Apply what you think is best to make that happen, right? But I gave you the physical requirements. I told you exactly what you need to get done and how we got there. Now you guys apply the technical tactical aspect. And then there we go. Now we have a happy marriage is long as I can supply valuable information. It doesn't matter what the information ISS, and that's where everybody gets stuck on these controlled environment numbers like like looking, swatting inventions like Who cares? Like Who cares about written load? Load gets you to here right after that, it's all about It's all about speed. It's all about rhythm coordination, your vestibular system that there's so many things that go into making. You better not just, uh, put three fifteen on the back squat suite. No, >> that's you know. Yes, yes, I agree. I'm not going to deviate too far. My ma, you know how I work or my mind races and I don't go in straight lines. I apologized immediately. Good. I was thinking about your friend mentioned earlier. It was everything that this lately, too. People who've been the private sector's I work in personal training, and I worked in exercise clinic for two and a half years. Iowa State, where don't older adults randall off cool testing on them. But ultimately they showed up because they enjoy it. And one things that I think we I don't mean We have everybody some people forget is that it needs to be enjoyable back. And when you're in a private sector and you're literally your food is the ability for something to come back to you. Hey, it's really different and you start. You said Okay, you know what exercise and movement do you like, and then you manipulate How do I make that exercise the most effective exercise for that person? And that's what you kind of mentioned with the educational process for your athletes. You're taking this approach. Where? How did you get them to win? Firstly, they gotta want to be here, but they don't want to be who I try hard. And secondly, no Adam, take ownership of these movements. I really like that concept because it's really melting in the world of Hey, you're here. You have to get better. But everyone knows when you want to get better. Vs have to get better, right? The be out a little different and unusual marks Lefton excited to move. I just keep thinking about that from like the private side. That's really where, like the general public, and you could deal with great Alan to deal with a lot of athletes who really want to be there. But unfortunately, majority the world doesn't want to work out like they're they're not interested, and I hate to make an assumption, but it's hard not to think that it's either them not knowing or them intimidated that have to do something in there, right? Right. I'm like that mindset a beam to apply. Okay, let's have an ownership model that drives it, because if you talk to people, her successful personal trainers, they have a way to make sure people come back. Oh, for should join a box in a way that a strength coach you're no environment might not even have to be exposed to just because it's the nature of >> well, for me, like the off season. I mean, when I get a freshman, that's a great thing about basketball. But I get a freshman. I mean, maybe they picked up some weights like a B. There's still just such a greenhorn in the weight room. They don't know what's good and what's bad, right? So, essentially the off season is a little bit of dictatorship like Sorry, I'm to tell you what to do because you don't know shit, right? But the goal is to earn that autonomy as well. So, you know, my guys that are kind of like slaps like for the whole offseason. Well, their leashes a lot tighter like Nah, bro, you're going to do this because I know you need to do this. You have earned the right to have that a top. So I want to make sure that that's, like pretty clear, too, because if you just give autonomy all day and there's going to run over you. But the one aspect that I think that is so important with our autonomy is it's my biggest performance enhancer, and I actually had dated Approve it. Like if I just look at my C M J members from our force plates once again. Yes, there are some maybe eight sets of doubles or six sets of triples or whatever, right? But once again, that is Tendo based, like to a certain agree with most of our movement. So you know, it could be a triple. It could be a double. It could be a single. It depends on where they fall in on along those lines, but essentially the flexibility of the sets and wraps, the unbelievable latitude of the movement pattern that they're doing. But yet counter movement jumps in February. They are p r ng, not season. P R's. I'm talking life top ers Guys that have been here for three years are hidden from nineteen point one to twenty six point four. I can't say names the twenty six point four in February. So what does that say? It says that my biggest performance enhancer is the kids saying I want to do that. Cool. That's what we're going to do. >> No, I love it that zik perfect. If you want to be there, you're intense. Going to be high. You're going to try harder. You're going toe actually care about what you d'oh and that mindset really house dr an aspect of performance that otherwise we can't because all internal right korea we really started wrapping up towards the end you buy a couple questions for you before you go yourself thank you i appreciate it it's always good to have you next way clich a weekly cycle korea >> will make a >> record you know fire i slowly thanks for having you guys we wanted to come with because you're a scientist I mean, if you had to share a bitter fight and this is to anybody and this isn't their coach, Jenny, where nobody is looking to enhance their fitness, their performance, um, their overall well being You that with activity, right? How is what would you advise someone to get into and regards Tio training our house to someone Initiate That's on top of the micro dose in a kind of giving that much of credit here, obviously some e How does someone injured? I heard it put that way and I'll get straight to the point that one look into into exercise probably should do some form of micro dose in to see if you even like it everyone to overdose. How do they start that process if they're not athletes per se how they decide where they began? >> Well, essentially is what do you want to end up like, What's the what's the point beyond ways, right? Do you just want to look aesthetically better? How aesthetically do you want to look? Do you wanna look like a big body voter? Do you want to look like a swimmer? What do you want to look like? And I think that the vein than fan ity. And I mean, that's what drives my basketball players there in tank tops here around. Of course, they want nice arms. Right? So there's certain things that you gotta know. Like, I want to look like this. Now, some of the performance guys, Maybe I wantto sprint faster or jump higher. Like that's a whole another aspect. But we're talking about general population number one. What do you wanna look like? Okay, so if I'm three hundred pounds and I want to lose some body fat for my own general health and I want to, you know, be more presentable, if you will. And smaller clothing. Well, then maybe just walking ten minutes every day, and then you start adding layers to it, So Okay, You know what I mean? Killing these walks. How about we go Stairmaster? Okay, that's a little tougher. Okay, how about we introduce maybe some med ball exercises because that's not necessarily too complex to do that. I can do it through different ranges. It's easy to manipulate. Okay, Now, let's take a dumb bill or kettle bill. Then we work our way to a bar bill and now. Oh, man, what do you know? I just dropped one hundred pounds and in them. Oh, before all of that eating. But like, we're just talking about the physical aspects, but as far as that, where do you want to be? Okay, I want to look like Brad Pitt. OK, for one, get plastic surgery. But if you want to look cool air at Brad Pitt and Fight Club Okay, well, these are the things that I need to do. So let's reverse into near the process, okay? He cut his little jack, so that means he's got muscular strength. OK, cool. So that means weights are going to get involved at some point we'll he got really lean for this too. So my general fitness sucks. Maybe I just need to start with walking. Maybe a jump rope, maybe just medicine Ball toss is something that's super easy. The number one. What's going to make me more consistent? What consistency is goingto win? It's not. They'll work out you do that's going to make you go from a counter movement jumped a nineteen point one to twenty six point for It's the consistency that got you there. All right. That was a two year process for that kid. Just to get to that point, right? If you try to hijack the system, if you try to go, I want to get from point A to point Z like that. Well, you're going to run into multiple things. One possibly injury and two. What's the real reason why you're Russian? The real reason why you Russians, Because I don't want to be there in first place. Now you've just ruined the whole concept. Now you've just ruined the journey. To me, that is much more important. Like when I used to be a fake body motor, if you will, that when I try to get ready for shows. I don't remember the show at all. The only thing I remembered was those nights where I was damn hungry those mornings where I had to get up, do my quote unquote fasted cardio meal prep backs without remember only big. How I was on stage for forty five seconds like that was twelve weeks for forty five seconds. Right? So that's where you gotta understand like it's the beauty or what is it that Jake whole line of the beauty is in the is in the cash. Basically what? The thing that you want to fall in love with the most is the adversity that they were going to fall in love with the most is the stressful points. That's what's going to create the beauty, if you will remember that Jake Colon. But essentially, that Google >> search really quick pressure that the Brad Pitt Fight Club I >> mean, that dude was solid, Man, that was a solid right. May like Brad Pitt. He was a pretty boy until fight club. And I was like, Yo, that is some white trash. I would not mess with him. He can go. >> Uh, great. I love it. Lastly, Yeah. Course lesson. Where do we find you? On social media and other venues? Assault media were coming here more than beauty and wonder himself. >> Yeah. So Instagram is probably what you can find me on the most slash strength as C h L E s strength. You could find me there pretty active on it. You want to see so naked cats? So to sphinx, with my beautiful wife and ah, multiple podcast. I'm on a lot of different podcast that you just Google. I, too, are goingto iTunes type in my name. You'LL find many other platforms where I go into a lot more depth about how we train on And then, of course, speaking engagements. I do multiple speaking, engage with the nationally and internationally. And so there's opportunities to meet me in person there. >> There's beauty in the struggle. >> There is beauty in the struggle. This beauty >> I got my end. >> Yes, there is beauty in the struggle. That's when they >> get here in Britain, right? Right there. Where >> you Brooks. But there's beauty in the struggle >> A lasting well, Korea appreciate you have coming on here. I mean, I hope something useful. I >> was one hundred percent. My pleasure, Max. I love working with you, man. >> Now you do. And anybody curious about Corey? I mean, I really encourage checking out his social media. Yeah, I know. It's a lot of crazy stuff on Instagram that is really thought provoking. Put it that way and I can't believe it. Oh, my goodness. I can't let you escape Korea quite yet. >> Well, what you got? >> Uh, whole off the exit. Give me five minutes on it. I was going to ask his social media is going to ask. Yeah, way rehab itself. Yeah, to spring loaded monster man who means you want to share a little bit on this because I know you have been doing this yourself. Yeah, this is it in chorus singer based Achilles program. I love some of the actors. I love thee, not the unloaded foot contact under your hand motion who was seen Alice into this isn't the course in a chair, and he's for lack of better words. Words. MacInnis foot on the floor like a pogo stick and doing extremely extremely unloaded movements early on that site, too early on but in the rehab process itself to introduce low level plyometrics, He's doing band assisted jumps. He's doing isometrics. He's doing heavy squads. He's doing some bar bell curls. All things important for the curies. >> Sure are. Absolutely yeah beyond you. My understandings of the lower leg complex is off the charts because of my injury. So for the viewer's eye, tor macula or a ruptured my Achilles tendon with a full rupture but right at the insertion, which is the very atypical tear because I've been dealing teno sis for over a year before I tore it. So they had it cut me up top to bring me down low, if you will. So usually Achilles ruptures that all they do is bring it together and then tie it. There are. So it through the mind was at the very bottom. So essentially, they had to cut me up top toh length and me and then, uh, suitors through. So is very atypical, which sucks only that that part sucks. Spike. Um, it's not that I am Well, maybe a little bit arrogant, but I honestly want to take full control of my physical therapy because I think that intuitively I understand the process not just of rehab, but of how to increase performance. So all I did was watered down as much of that is possible and truly started as soon as I got to the pain free. And so, yeah, with all the unloaded stuff, it just made sense to me like that's something you just don't see in physical therapy to It's kind of blows. My mind is what's the first thing to go like when you get older? What happens? Will you lose your ability to do very forceful things or to lose power or the ability to generate power. So that's the first thing that came in my mind when I rupture. Or when a Torme Achilles was okay. I need to go back and not be old because essentially, I'm staying still. So if I'm staying still, it's like use it or lose it protocol. So from that perspective, I told myself, I need to move fast at some point. So I started with all my available limbs at the time, just moving fast. Then I progress toe when my suitors seal or excuse me with my I want my wound healed. I got into the pool, so that's the most is about is unloaded. You should get, and all it did was just frail. My leg and there a cz muchas I could through different planes and of course, he has fold up. But of course, it's going to like your adding a stress. And so I just did it Mohr or Mohr. And so I just Kim. Training fast, even though, is the most unloaded way you can do it. And then, like Max was talking about, I got to a seated position and I just started doing be most unloaded pogo jumps you've ever seen or ankle pops or whatever you want to call it. So then I transition to standing on it isometrics, then putting more force into the forefoot isometrics. And then I started using the bands I mean super heavy bands and then just started like Pogo's and then start lighting the bands I went to arm went the body weight. To me, it's like super common sense, but I don't know, maybe the physical world. It doesn't really look at it that way. They look at it and isolation opposed to global. So to me, I knew if I could quickly get back to global patterns that I will be able to promote healing faster. And so, like Chase talked about, his last one ought to be a far protocols. Luckily, I had him as a resource to help me with my healing process, but right now, on that four and a half months, almost five months, and I'm doing some pretty cool things if just to give you a point of reference. Dez Bryant, wide receiver. He tore his a week after mine, and essentially, you guys Essentially, he's What's a similar athletes level athlete? You know, very someone. Uh, actually, he's going to be up until eight to nine months. John Wall tour has a few months after mine. He's going to be an entire year for his process. Boog, Golden State warriors took him a whole year to get back on my goal. If I can get it back and lesson seven months, that means I did something, right? >> No, I love it. Well, that's tough stuff. Get to see if you check out his instagram page. So me, please, dear, do yourself a service. Go check out the man. He's a good dude, Tio. So sometimes no kid. Don't >> you know you're right there, e >> I don't want call corps on a bad day. >> You >> know, it's all good now. I really appreciate it, man. Thanks for being on here. And, uh, again we follow sometime in near future. I feel I'm expecting that shirt. By the way, where is my core bighead T shirt? >> You know, I want to find one of my earlier body building picks, and I'm gonna put it on a T shirts and, Tio, >> I love it. How I rocked the hell out of it. Man, >> you're beard in a most >> and be right here. Yes, right behind. Maybe my postal records slash proposing bronze and gold. You're welcome. You're welcome. An absolutely huge in that >> purple banana hammock to >> Wouldn't ask for another way. What? The full real deal. Korean stage. Ready, you know. Awesome. Well armed man up that thing. You guys, Listen, I appreciate it. Great South Korea on. If we're curious about finding more, check him out on instagram and look for Teo. No doing more. These in near future. >> Awesome. Thanks, Max.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. I'm with >> the one and only Cory Slush Inger Cory is the director of men's sorry, director of performance from men's basketball at Stanford University. Good friend of mine, extremely passionate human. And for those you don't know former college basketball Hooper Corey really happened. Happy on a day to thank you for being here. >> No, man, it's an absolute pleasure. Me, Max. It's It's kind of crazy how our relationship has evolved throughout the years. Ah, start with Diem. You know, that's how it usually goes, the way your T shirt and he's got hair. So I wish I was that God, like I got it down here, but I got it out talk. So don't worry, Max. I'm going to make you a T shirt and I'm sending Teo. You said >> make a T shirt. I >> will wear >> until you plant cast with you again. >> Be careful with the pick. Might be >> way careful with that. Wait. Speaking of that, Corey, I mean, before we went on air here, you have a little story about your beard. And not to say you're only known for the beard, but the beer definitely is a staple in the slashing. Your appearance give me back for that. I want to hear it, and they will dive into some of the science. >> Yeah, man. So as far as the beard, I mean, it started at you. Maybe we're on a Spanish tour went overseas, and I did. One of those crazy handlebar mustache is right. I mean, it was gnarly, but being overseas just didn't shave, right? I mean, we're there for almost a week and a half, and I just started growing out the stubble. And then people are like, keep it going. And so I kept going and we were winning a lot of games. And then we end up winning a championship. And so it became like the tournament beard or became like the season beard. And so I just kept rolling it from there, and yeah, that's that's kind of where the beard is stated for now. And then when I realized, like if I could, it almost looks like a cancer patient. So I needed a key because he's blond eyebrows, man from five feet away. It looks like I'm ball period like I can't grow here. So, yeah, that's where the beard states is at this point. >> Well, Iet's fifty. I'm getting mine going. I'm not going to your caliber. I keep it trimmed, but it makes me feel like I'm a scientist or something. If I have a beard, makes you more intelligent, but getting off the topic here. When it comes to developing anybody, people say, you know, athletes, athletes, athletes athletes are what zero point zero zero one percent of population when it comes to developing anybody at all. We got talking about the bass aspects of human movement human development. You have an interesting take on this, and I don't want to spoil it for the listeners. I'd rather have you say it first, cause I'll just bastardized and screw it up. You're going to take on developing anybody regardless if they're an athlete or just general population, >> right? I mean, if you look through human evolution one or two things that we used to do, I used to farm. We used to kill things with our hands. We used to climb, you know, we used to throw things, you know? I mean, look at the the early Olympics, right? I mean, that's basically what the events wass. He wrestled someone. You ran faster than someone. You ran further than someone, and you threw some things. I and basically that's what human capacity is. So my goal before we actually trained them to be better athletes, is to make them better humans first, because if I can express their ability to be a better human, then they will be able to express their ability to be a better athlete. >> Joshua and with those movements, selections. If you have unique choice food people who don't follow up Instagram better weigh on your instagram handle at the end. But the selections of exercises you pick, it's not traditional a sense. Let's load a bar up. Let's do a hand claim you really take ownership of different shaped objects for that way, whether it be a yoke, whether it be a kettle bell, how do you come up with the most movements? Elections? What goes into that decision making? And for any individual out there, whether they are fast ball player who's seven one or a guy who's five eight, how do you decide which of those implements are best fitted for you? >> Well, everything that shaped the way I believe is one hundred ten percent based off my environment. And look, I played college basketball. Don't look at my stats. I was not that good, but I trained in or I've played with, and now for ten years I've trained that basketball athletic population, so you can imagine with me. Okay, I'm five foot ten. Very average, at best, especially with my links, man. Now imagine six foot six, but a seven foot two weeks man and all those things that I was good at, clean snatched jerk. You know, I was a purist in the beginning. I mean, of course I was right. I was just learning what strength iss How to be strong. Now, I'm trying to imagine further. Like, how do I have impact? How do I have quote unquote transfer? What? I'm trying to load these freaks. I mean, these guys are not normal human beings, right? They got seven foot two wings fans and short torso, so their levers are crazy. So now I'm asking them to do the same things that got me strong. Being at five. Ten, it just doesn't make much sense to me now, Not saying they don't have the capacity to do it mean help. Be honest with you. Some of my best weightlifters actually been seven foot tall, But that being said, if there's a way I can load them, that makes a lot more sense. That's easy to teach. I could do it often, and it's right in their comfort zone now, not comfort as in like we're not training hard, but like in their center of mass, where they can actually manipulate loads heavy loads at that with decent speeds. Then, yeah, I'm going to do that. So, for instance, we look at a bar bell, clean snatches all good. Why can't we do the same intent with a trap door? I mean, we could still pull. We could still triple extend and then we can still catch in that power position. The only thing that changes is the complexity of the movement. Now I'm not manipulating myself around a straight bar bell. It's in my centre of mass. And now I, Khun Express quote unquote force. Ah, lot more efficient, Effective. So now I can load it more loaded faster and do less teaching. Yeah, I do that. That makes a lot of things So that's really what it came from. And then to be honest with you, But how do you experience that light? How do you know a seven foot feels like? How do you know? And so you know, I've dabbled town some ways too. Open up my consciousness, if you will, to allow me to feel that ord, allow the imagination, my creativity to tryto understand what that could feel like. And then, of course, obviously feedback from my athletes. But I mean, why you always see, like the old school dues were just like, Oh, this is weak. This is squad. We we box what we what do we do? Whatever to get strong. But it's like, you know, it makes sense. If you're five foot six, it doesn't make much sense if your seven foot tall so you've got a truly find ways to experience it yourself. And now by the means that you do that probably not going to talk about on this podcast. But the way I did it work. >> Yeah, well, we'll refrain from diving that specific. I'd appreciate it on because to each his own one of the things you mentioned like talking about Hooper's I played basketball. I played your Batch three point shooter. Anyone's listening, too, By the way, when my feet are set, I'm not. I'm not an athlete, but I could shoot the shit out of basketball. I'LL be very blunt with you. I've >> been on the receiving end of that on one of our own game. You don't have to talk when you busted my ask way >> down to like. A lot of basketball players are bad movers, and what I mean by that it's their very good when you put a ball in their hands. That is something you talked about, too. But when you get them in a dance room right there, a lot different than football players and I mean by that is you don't see a bad end zone celebration, right? Want touchdown dances look really good, Odell Beckham being very soon and a lot of it's because those patterns are done without a ball in their hand. This is my opinion and they're very primal and natural with a minute and basketball everything's doing the ball in their hand and then when they start to move, especially because they're developing this, you starts. We're like a third rate. Now they have to only play basketball. And typically you don't play football and basketball, especially football. The high level, because you know you prepping for the basketball season itself. >> You get that deal in Scotland. Shit, bro, >> You have to play basketball for every waking hour the next fifteen years to get there. I'm kidding, but I'm thinking about my head is we're not exposed to those different movement. Parents were stuck in this ninety foot unless you're how light is forty six feet, something like that with court that really constrains how we move. And then you put someone in a waiting room where all the son of dealing with external loads and very unique movement patterns you get guys who just looked walking and I think you talked about this on different podcast, but I want to get into a little bit. Here was, I think so. That stems from our coaching of a young athletes and our physical education that we no longer does. Have we used to have back in the day and how that's really affecting athletes as they get older. >> I couldn't agree more. I mean, I get these quote unquote specialized athletes. And to be honest with you, I don't have athletes like I have guys who have a basketball in their hand. They got really long levers and they have some skill, right? They have some skill to be able to go from point A to point B and put on orange round ball into a cellar. That's that's so happen to be ten foot off the ground. That's what I have. I don't have a true athlete who can pick things up off the floor who could sit down on the floor and stand up, who can throw things who can sprint, who could jump onto things. I mean, some of the best vertical jumps that you see in basketball are not even close to what you would see in football and track and field. When you think this is a sport with the high flyers counter movement, jump hands on hips averages that I've seen on teams eighteen inches and everybody is like Oh, that's terrible But that's a true counter movement jump with long levers. So now if we add some momentum to that and add a seven foot two wingspan and then all of a sudden their elbows above the ramp. Right? So that's the difference we get. We see this a NRI or this false thought, or this false vision of what athleticism is because they're so long. But in reality. And then you put a bunch of cornerbacks out there that would be really special to see, because these are guys that are like five foot ten and the most explosive fast dude you've ever seen. There's don't have the skill to play basketball. So you know, with the way we are, physical education is set up now, obviously has been chopped in half, half, half so no more education. Physical education is what we get to. They only play one sport. They sit in chairs that they're not really made to be. They live in this wart western society where every chair they sit in Is that it? His ninety, which for them is more like this, right? And then they get up and down on these beds that their feet are hanging off of. So I don't know what sleep looks like for that. And if you saw my guys get on an airplane, a commercial airplane, you would be cringing the entire time because they're literally bundled up like this. And so not on ly. Are we trying to correct childhood development? I'm trying to correct what they deal with on a daily basis. Just walking the class. We watching my guys duck through door frames constantly. It is like some some of them are guards and they're ducking through frames. And you're just like I don't know how you've made it this far without knocking yourself out. So there's so many that it's really all about the environment and her. When I've trained my athletes, it's all about giving them the environment they have never had. So that's why we utilize the resting room. The gymnastics room. It's soft had so they know, so they don't necessarily fear the ground. They don't fear their interactions gravity. So now I'm giving them the ability to learn how to change levels. You know, little guys. So I don't see six foot ten guys wrestling, right? So I have an opportunity. Now they learn how to interact and change levels, and then even more so you put somebody with them. So now we're like pushing and pulling, just like you see in football. So now they know where they put their feet. So now we're not stepping on feet constantly looking. I mean, God, Hey, these guys are like because sixteen seventeen shoes like, of course, I'm going to step on each other's speed. But if they have that awareness in that sense of where other people are, then maybe they don't make that misstep. Or maybe they get their self out of harm's way and then even more so just learning how to fall. They learn how to fall properly from standing toe floor transitions. Then, when they jumped through the air at forty two inch words, whatever you see, that's make believe for you. Switch vertical right word, but and then they get hit in the air, and now they've got to figure out the most effective way. Not the break there. Nash. Well, most of the guys are going to do everything they can to stay on their feet. Well, that's where you want to get blown out, right? So now if I can give them a tumbling strategy, so now that they can interact with the floor a lot more smoother, athletic, well, then maybe they have a chance to not get hurt and be be back in the action, right? So it's performance enhancing as well as injury mitigation. >> I >> know that. I mean, I don't know where to begin. I have about nine comments off that. First. I love the idea of talking about how these guys are living in a world built for some one, five, ten. I'm six two and Kelsey, my girlfriend. But, hey, can you reach above and grab the top? Can apostle whatever I'm like? Yeah, Okay. But you look at a guy until you actually play hoops. I think, and really appreciate how big these dudes are. You play. It's a guy who's seven one. You look at him and go, Oh, my gosh, like that's at a different human. And then you know his shoe size next to you and you shake his hand and you get to the other side of his hand. You start to understand, like, who we dealing with here, right? You look at these, you know the body needs to heal when it goes into a stress or whatever, and we're putting these guys in positions that the body would not otherwise deem for recovery right now, like this call. Time out. Is that the funniest thing? MBA timeouts. Aside from LeBron James, that's got the nine foot chair right? These guys come out and these will stools that are too small for meaning, and >> so they're not really >> rusting. And you got a dude who's trying to recover his heart rate, but really the whole time, he's in a hip flexion. He's never been in the past, you know, thirty years, right? And if you're thinking about really taking care of an athlete, we spend so much time in the weight room and all this great stuff we can do. So Muchmore. If we had a liberty, too, I use we usually more like you, um, to you, then develop an environment that conducive to them. I know University. Kentucky did that. If you look at their dorm rooms, they had ESPN going on two years ago when they built at the new facility. For the basketball players, the sinks were higher, the magical tired, they were longer. And if you ever wash a guy who's seven foot dragging on the water fountain, I mean the amount of spinal flexion he has to go under. It's ridiculous. The guy's curling up in a C. And I mean, that's crazy to think about because the whole time on the way we were talking about how do we get these guys in a position that they can function successfully? And right now it's like optimally because obviously would have been something we did fifteen years ago to get in a position, right? But how do we get them to be successful? So I pose the question to your court. I'm gonna give you the keys to the castle. The kingdom. Okay, Philip, um, maybe not the whole environment. But there's three things you like to change the outside of the weight room that you had the crystal ball and you could go either back in time more just socially. Okay. I want to change his guys. You know, the size of his car. You know that the chair he sits and we're three things that you pick and dio >> number one. I would get them involved and dance or martial arts as their first sport. That would be probably number one so or gymnastics something. I don't care how tall you are like Who cares if you're not trying Win a gold medal at three, Right? Is just learning how to do those things right? Understanding your body number two. I would change how physical education is and in western society, um, and then number three. Let's give you something actual physical number three. If I could make what? I >> got some for you. Well, you're thinking, OK, I got you want to think your third for me? Basketball players eat horribly. You're so single, teacher. Yeah, basketball players, at least by team. And I will make this universal blanket statement. They just don't like to eat for some reason. Right? Who for? Three hours and drinking game and call it good. And I don't get it like I have a fat ass. My play. I gained weight in season. Really? Team he'll know what a food I take over which you're pulling their postgame meals. And that's when they remove the snack girl. Remember the snack role when, uh, >> you know, you have todo I had Taco Bell, bro. Like we won. We got talking about, you know? So I asked the level Appalachia, which we suck. >> I think I'm going to go a little. Can't you apologize? We're going to go play and that's a D three hoops. That's finest. We're rolling to a game. It's up north took a four hour drive and we stopped at the rude crib an hour and a half before taking a corner booth buffet of ribs. They got a bunch of island boys here. The rib crib you bring up platters were basically, you know, and capacity. And when they get like five points because our center had to pull out the throat at halftime. >> Yeah, it is. Did you ever have to drive the team ban? Because I have ways in the backseat in the bag who thought that was, like level once again, level athlete, that unreal. But I would say that the third thing Don't be wrong. Yes, food. But if there's a way, I mean, if there's a truly economical way across the board to just look, it got health, we could do that, don't care. But I can change your environment that could change your internal environment and will, And the number one is if I can just poof your gut and I can look at everything, then that will be the number one, because just a little moving world. But I don't know how you're absorbing it. I don't know what's going on. And then you wantto talk about these kids that you know, a phD or these kids that are super restless. Well, I think it starts with the gut, because if you're got health sucks, so does this. So that would be the third thing. >> No, that's crazy That way. May I have a little bit of experience is our company. I don't deal with the actual read now that the things I've learned and seeing the idea of taking that integrated approach. So hey, let's actually look at your stomach. Yes, you have to collect your poop three times a day, and I'm sorry. If you're going to do that, you can start to look at what you produced and way of excreting and whether or not you're absorbing what you need to absorb. And we start looking at injuries and no tendon, health and muscle tissue, everything as a holistic approach. What? We gotta look at the internal environment if any of our environments messed up inside and we're trying to impose a stressor on the body. But we have no idea what the internal systems like, and you have certain deficiencies or certain aspects that your lack and these were certain areas where it again people go, Oh, that's not scientific. There's no study. Well, unfortunately, if you understand complex systems and their dynamic interactions and not to get too detail, I'Ll explain it as simple as I can. But what happens is we have an outcome like a strange angle, and we say, Oh, and go weak angle get hurt, right? Well, kind of grooming. Or maybe it's ankle week. That's a risk factor. Athlete didn't sleep enough the past three nights. Risk factor Athlete had some sort of physical contact during the game. That critter there system risk factor athlete. Nutritionally, it wasn't recovering from previous workouts and games. Risk factors so happens of all these risk factors, and that's just a very there's no all the risk factors. A lot involved, all but these risk factors come about and then we have the probabilistic nature of something toe happen. So oh, how likely is it that something bad will go wrong and we see the last straw on the camel's back sprain an ankle and we go a week. But maybe it's didn't sleep enough Ankle week. All this other stuff and that ankle sprain. For people interested in complex systems, it's called an emergent pattern. So there's a common pattern that occurs when you have things go wrong. So if the money C l it's like, Oh, gluten medias is weak knee Val Agus. All right, you're a muscular control all these things that go into and nothing can pinpoint it. So if we're including these bomber, you know about mechanical factors and Eve Alvis, why aren't we including some internal factors like gut health Or, you know, the blood wood for the micro nutrient efficient season? Yes, I know I'm not versed enough to speak on micronutrient deficiencies and our interactions off, you know, health and whatnot. But something as simple as college in environments haven't adequate vitamin C for, you know, ten and healing instead of, you know, repair is obviously a factor. And so when we start looking the bottom, we gotta look at the big picture. It's not just how your knee bends. It's not how you shoot a jump shot. It's not how you land every time. >> Where are you? Our body is so much more resilient and durable than you. Give it credit for me. We've survived as a species. We're a very long time. You're very harsh conditions and you're going to tell me it's that one jump that got you one job. One job is the one that Oh, that needs a little dalliance. That's the one that got you. I mean, if you super slow mo A lot of these great expressions of physical capacity in sport it was you would be like, Oh, my God, they're neither this there that But in reality, like that's I'm close to the reason why they like break or don't Break. And Jordan shallow, brilliant dude, He gave me this metaphor. He was saying to Philip, a pond, Well, it's like this fungus that will Philip a pond and it doubles its size every day. So if it starts off it like, you know, point two, then the next day be point for and he asked me, he's like, Okay, if it's going to Philip in thirty days, Philip, the whole pond, What's the day? It's half full. Then I thought for a second it took me a lot longer than I should have thought about it. But he's like, but he an injection goes day twenty nine. I >> don't want an answer, by the way. >> Yeah, was like Day twenty nine I. That's why I look at the human body like that is literally the last thing and then pull. And so it's all these. We could have had all these interventions from day to today twenty eight or day twenty nine. Even the notes that one just last. Ah, strong. The camel's back to just there goes, you know, And that's what's great about being in the collegiate setting. And being a Stanford is we have a lot of safety nets for our safety, and that's if you will. So we try to have as many quote unquote KP eyes and objective measurements to give us an idea of what could possibly happen. But in reality, it's still the dynamic environment, so I don't understand. Like I can't account for school. I can't account for their sleep. I mean, we could through, like, grouper or or whatever, but it's not realistic and thine and are setting and in their gut hell's like way picking up poop. Three times a day. They were not drawn blood once. We're not doing these things. So unless we're doing that, then you're just trying to create most resilient, durable human beings so they can withstand the stressors some more than others. But hopefully have a successful season. >> No, that's like I hate to break it to people. We don't know what we're doing. We're doing our best. I think chase Wells with him. A Stanford. Get a great line, he said. We can't guarantee success. We can almost guarantee you're not guaranteed to fail. And what I mean by that is that you can't always KP eyes and really, we're looking at. If you jump nine inches, we're probably not going to be very good basketball unless you're seven. No, right. And so we're looking at the human system as a means of understanding what is going on really lagged behind in regards to your performance assessment and what might be hindering you in regards to launch into no tracking? Can I get a little bit of data? A lot? The way explain it is kind of like I don't ask my girlfriend Kelsey, how she's doing. Once a week, you know. I asked her every day and why I asked that every day is to realize, you know, all my clothes that I left out pissing her off. You know, I did. I forget that we're supposed to go on a date last night. You know, I might not have forgot a wallet last night. We went to dinner from now on, Accent, all supposed to buy. But that's a true story. WeII >> brought up. I mean, that's the most important thing is you gotta have feedback daily, right? And wait here. It's really simple. We take a controlled environment, do some things in it before they go into a dynamic environment, which is basketball games of basketball practice. So what we do is we call that microdot. It's our way of training. Every day, in some form or fashion, these individuals come into their work, their human capacity, a Siri's, if you will. Then after that, they go into their B series, which is complex. This is really what I know what's going on. I don't get me wrong when they walk in to get their weight, are joking or making eye contact and get that handshake. How firm is that handshake thes air, All the quantitative things that I'm trying to pick up as they're coming through the door. Then you watch them say We're hitting clean, complex and they're going through the motions and their consulate changing grip or or the pool isn't looking too good, and any sharp today will boom. That's my control Now. It's not the most objective feedback, but at least it's a constant. And so that's my way of having once against safety nets from a safety nets and then weekly or depending on how many games we have that we do, our force plate jumps. So once again, another safety net, and then we have our connects on day. So our GPS data that they do on the practice gym once again any one of those in isolation doesn't tell me much. But if I have a bunch of them, then I can at least paint a better picture from quantitative qualitative, and then I can go and knit. Pick what I think they're intervention may need to be, and so it's not going to be perfect, not even close, but as long as you have a constant and yours is beautiful. Like you said, Just something simple. You get daily. Hey, how are you doing? And you know how they express that. I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm cool. I'm great. Like, you know, what there was in flux is are like, you know what? They're how they're truly feeling. Just based off that one question alone. But once again, if you can set up your system or your program or whatever toe have safety nets for your safety nets, then I think you can You can catch a >> lot of those along the way. >> Yeah. No, that makes sense. It's how you provide context to a situation. And the more information that we can apply that we didn't classifier more to a system like jumping is, you know, your lower body strength and your verbal expressions, your most emotional state on DH, maybe even sweep or other things that go into that, the more we could understand what's actually happening to the person. So I was kind of really bad for a second. You said some of micro dose in and term overdose. You refer into training a little bit often. Yep. And Corey is well known for this and for those at home listening, I'm going to my best to explain it. Short weeks. I got a question off of it. If you know, explains it will stay here for another hour and a half because great to listen to. But I want Teo a little bit of a different direction off of athletics about it. Firstly, micro doses the idea that we're applying a moderate level toe, low level stressor consistently, and that adaptation occurs from the aggravation off those dresses over a period of time. So we're never going to Hi, we're never going to low. And the idea is that training in the weight room is only one small piece of your life. They even programmed High Day, and you don't sleep that night or you have emotional stressor for your case, your practice. Then all of a sudden, that high, big, magnified and starts spilling over the bar and becomes too much the idea of micro dozing, especially a non controlled external environment where it's called life, and we're trying to apply enough that you can handle. If someone's feeling good, then they can push a little bit that they themselves. Now My question for you, Cory, is I love an athletic sense. I also see it being very applicable to anyone out there general population and especially in terms of I got two things. Us too. In terms of one, someone learned a movement. You get a chance to do it often and daily and someone who wants to learn how to be in the weight room. And secondly, because there are, let's say we do it eight out of ten days. If you only miss one day, you're only missing ten percent of your entire workout, right? So instead of doing looking at this whole one workout one day, you look at like a ten day period. If you got eight days of pick from and you just can't do one, you only missed ten percent versus if you only had five days of pick one and you miss one, you missed twenty percent, right? And so now we have the ability to be more flexible in our environment. So how does that fit in like a general population? If it was my dad or my girlfriend trying to learn howto use some of this micro dose in the weight room. How do you plan? >> So one hundred percent with micro dozing. The reason why it came about was it was a solution to a problem. My problem is I don't have enough exposure to my guys. So how do I create more training frequency? And now we got rid of warm up something that was just kind of getting them ready for practice. That kind of don't care about it. The coach hated seen me do it. I personally hated doing it. So now it was a solution. What it turned into was motor learning. Now you want to learn how to train, will do it all the time. So that's where complex comes in. It's the value of orcs work, right? So basically, you take a bar bill and you do every movement that you would do in a weight room, in some sense, in one set, so you'd hinge You do a hip flexion. You do a press, do a pool. If I break down each one of those into isolation, it would look like already else Squad, Polish, military, press or row, those air all movements that you would do and if you separated each exercise in an isolation you would go more resistance on, just like you would see in general fitness, right? Like we're going to do three sets of ten on bench press or three sets a tent on back squad. Well, that's great. How about we just put it all in one and now we have more exposure. So now I'm learning how to do the movements, and then you can't tell me that doing one thing once a week is actually going to make you learn the movement. So now you learn those little small video sequences that you see with thirty year experience power lifters who truly understand, like, move from body, this foot stance, or this is how I start to hinge here within my squat X degree. And that's how they perfected is because they have so much exposure to it. So we're doing the same thing. We're just trying to create exposure at lower thresholds and and in doing it often now as faras general population, what's the number one concern? But I don't have enough time. Oh, really? You don't have a thirty minute today, twenty to thirty minutes a day to not kind ofwork. Now. Every day I call B s. I say You just don't want to train. So that's where my producing to me is beautiful in the general population is because it's living the way you start your day. It's lunch, or it's when you get off work. Perfect. You can pick any of those three slots twenty, thirty minutes. You can eat and shower and get backto work or before work. So you can't tell me that everybody doesn't have that situation. So now, creating training frequency, you're getting enough volume throughout the week. Now we have on and then most importantly, like you brought up if I just had to miss that one day, it's ten percent of my training like it's not well, only train twice a week, So fifty percent of my training is gone. So that's where I think it's beautiful. And that's where he could work from general population to the most elite athletes in the world and the reason why I say the most elite athletes in the world because I just so happen to train to of So I do it with all these populations

>> Narrator: Live from Washington D.C. it's theCUBE, covering .conf2017. Brought to you by Splunk. (techno music) >> Well welcome back here on theCUBE as we continue our coverage at .conf2017. Splunks get together here in the nation's capital, Washington D.C. We are live here on theCUBE along with Dave Vellante. I'm John Walls. Glad to have you with us here for two days of coverage. We're joined now by Team Dell EMC I guess you could say. Colin Gallagher, who's the Senior Director of VxRail Product Marketing. Colin, good to see you, sir. >> Likewise. >> And Cory Minton, many time Cuber. Colin, you're a Cuber, as well. Principle Engineer, Data Analytical Leader at Dell EMC, and BigDataBeard.com, right? >> Yes, sir. >> Alright, and just in case, you have a special session going on. They're going to be handing these out a little bit later. So, I'm going to let you know that I'm prepared >> Cory: I love that, that's perfect. >> With you and your many legions of fans, allow me to join the club. >> That's awesome. Well welcome, we're so glad to have you. You've got a big data beard. You don't have to have a beard to talk big data at Dell EMC, but it certainly is not frowned upon if you do. >> John: Alright, well this would be the only way I'd ever grow one. >> There you go. >> I can promise you that. >> Looks good on you. >> I like the color, though, too. Anyway, they'll be handing these out at the special session. That'll be a lot of fun. Fellows, big announcement last week where you've got a marriage of sorts with Splunk technology and what Dell EMC is offering on VxRail. Tell us a little bit about that. Ready Systems is how you're branding this new offer. >> So we announced our Ready Systems for Splunk. These are turnkey offerings of Dell EMC technology pre-certified and pre-validated with Splunk and pre-sized. So we give you the option to buy from us both your Splunk solution and the underlying infrastructure that's been certified and validated in a wide variety of flavors based on top of VxRail, based on top of VxRack, based on top of some of our other storage products, as well, that gives you a full turnkey implementation for Splunk. So as Splunk is moving from the land of the hoodies and the experimenters to more mainstream running the business, these are the solutions that IT professionals can trust from both brands that IT professionals (mumbles). >> So you're both a Splunk reseller and a seller of infrastructure, is that right? >> Indeed. So we actually, we joined Splunk in a partnership as a strategic alliance partner a little over a year ago. And that gave us the opportunity to act as a reseller for Splunk. And we've recently gone through a rationalization of their catalog, so we actually have now an expanded offering. So, customers have more choice with us in terms of the offers that we provide from Splunk. And then part of our alliance relationship is that not only are we a reseller, but because of our relationship they now commit engineering and resources to us to help validate our solutions. So we actually work hand in hand with their partner engineering team to make sure that the solutions that we're designing from an infrastructure perspective at least meet or exceed the hardware requirements that Splunk wants to see their platform run on top of. >> Dave: Okay, cool. So you're a data guy. >> Indeed. >> You've been watching the evolution of things like Hadoop. When I look at the way in which customers deal with Hadoop, you know, ingest, you know, clean or transform, analyze, etc., etc., operationalize, there seem to be a lot of parallels between what goes on in that big data world and then the Splunk world, although Splunk is a package, it seems to be an integrated system. What are the similarities? What are the differences? And, what are the requirements for infrastructure? >> I think that the ecosystems, like you said, it's open source versus a commercial platform with a specific objective. And if you look at Splunk's deployment and their development over the years they've really started going from what was really a Google search for log, as Doug talked about today in the kickoff, to really being a robust analytics platform. So I think there's a lot of parallels in terms of technology. We're still ... It's designed to do many of the same things, which is I need to ingest data into somewhere, I need to make sense of it. So, we index it or do some sort of curation process to where then I can ask questions of it. And whether you choose to go the open source route, which is a very popular route, or you choose to go a commercial platform like Splunk, it really depends on your underlying call it ethos, right? It's that fundamental buy versus build, right? For somebody to achieve some of the business outcomes of like deploying a security event and information management tool like Splunk can do, to do that in open source may require some development, some integration of disparate open source platforms. I think Splunk is really good about focusing specifically on the business outcome that they're trying to drive and speeding their customers' time to value with that specific outcome in mind, whereas I think the open source community, like the Hadoop community, I think it offers maybe some ability to do some things that Splunk maybe wouldn't be interested in, things like rich media analytics, things that aren't good for Splunk indexing. >> Are there unique attributes of a data rich workload that you've accommodated that's maybe different from a traditional enterprise workload, and what are those? >> Yeah, so at the end of the day any application is going to have specific bottlenecks, right? One of the basis of performance engineering is move the bottleneck, right? In enterprise applications we had this evolution of originally they were kind of deployed in a server, and then we saw virtualization and shared storage really come in vogue for a number of years. And that's true in these applications, these data rich applications, as well. I think what we're starting to see is that regardless of what the workload is, whether it's a traditional business application like Oracle, SAP, or Microsoft or it's a data application like Splunk, anytime it becomes critical to the operation of a business organizations have to start to do things that we've done to every enterprise IT app in the past, which is we align it to our strategy. Is it highly available? Is it redundant? Is it built on hardware that we can be confident in that's going to be up and running when we need it? So I think from a performance and an engineering perspective, we treat each workload special, right? So we look at what Splunk requirements are and we understand that their requirements may be slightly different than running SAP or Oracle, and that's why we build the bespoke systems like our Ready System for Splunk specifically, right? It's not a catch all that hey it works for everything. It is a specifically designed platform to run Splunk exceptionally well. >> So Colin, a lot of the data practitioners that I talk to at this show and other data oriented shows like, "Ah, infrastructure. "I don't care about infrastructure." Why should they care about infrastructure? Why does infrastructure matter, and what are the things that they should know? >> Infrastructure does matter. I mean infrastructure, if youre infrastructure isn't there, if your infrastructure isn't highly available, as Cory said, if it lets you down in the middle of something, your business is going to shut down, right? Any user can say, "Talk about what happened "the last time you had a data center event, "and how long were you offline, "and what did that really mean for your business? "What's the cost of downtime for you?" And everything we build at an application level and a software level really rests on an infrastructure foundation, right? Infrastructure is the foundation of your data center and the foundation of your IT, and so infrastructure does matter in the sense that, as Cory said, as you build mission critical platforms on it the infrastructure needs to be highly reliable, highly available, and trusted, and that's what we really focus on bringing. And as applications like Splunk evolve more into that mainstream world, they need to be built on that mission critical, reliable, managed infrastructure, right? It's one thing for infrastructure development, and this kind of happens in the history of IT, as well. It happened in client server back in the day. You know, new applications ... Even the web environment I remember a company was running, one of my clients was running a web server under their secretary's desk, and she was administering in half time. You would never have a large company doing that. >> They'd be back up (mumbles). Before you leave. >> As it becomes more important it becomes more central, but also it becomes more important to centrally manage those, right? I'm a 15 year storage veteran, for good or for worse, and what we really sell in storage is selling centralized management of that storage. That's the value that we bring from centralized infrastructure versus a bunch of servers that are sitting distributed around the environment under someone's desk is that centralized management, the ability to share the resources across them, the ability to take one down while the others keep running, shift that workload over and shift it back. And that's what we can do with our Ready Systems. We can bring that level of shared management, shared performance management, to the Splunk world. >> I'll tell you, one of the things that we talked about, we talked about in a number of sessions this week, is application owners, specifically the folks that are here at this conference, need to understand that when they decide to make changes at the application level, whether they like infrastructure or they think it's valuable or not, what they need to understand is that there are impacts, and that if you look at the exciting things that were announced today around Enterprise Security updates, right? Enterprise Security is an interesting app from Splunk, but if a customer goes from just having Splunk Enterprise to running Enterprise Security as a premium application, there's significant downstream impacts on infrastructure that if the application team doesn't account for they can basically put themselves in a corner from a performance and a capacity perspective that can cause serious problems and slow down the business outcome that they're trying to achieve because they didn't think about the infrastructure impacts. >> Well, and what they want really is they want infrastructure that they can code, right? And we talked about this at VMworld we were talking about off camera that cloud model, bringing that cloud model to your data as oppose to trying to force your business into the cloud. So what about Ready Systems mimics that cloud model? Is it a cloud like infrastructure? Wondering if you could talk-- >> Yeah, I think it's that cloud like experience. Because we know we're in a multi cloud world, right? Cloud is not a place, cloud is an operating model, right? And so I think that the Ready Systems specifically provides a couple of things that are that cloud like experience, which is simple ordering and configuration and consumption that is aligned to the application, right? So we actually align the sizing of the system to the license size and the expected experience that this one customer would have so they get that very curated bespoke system that's designed specifically for them, but in a very easy to consume fashion that's also validated by the software vendor, in this case Splunk, that they say, "These are known good configurations "that you will be successful with." So we give customers that comfort that, "Hey, this is a proven way "to deploy this application successfully, "and you don't have to go through "a significant architecture design concept "to get to that cloud like experience." Then you layer in the fact that what makes up the Ready System, which is it is a platform powered by, in the VxRail case powered by VMware, right, ESX and vSAN, which obviously if you look at any of the cloud providers everything is virtualized at the end of the day for the most part, or at least most of the environments are. And so we give, and VMware has been focused on that for years and years of giving that cloud like experience to their customers. >> You talk about, you mentioned selling, sort of reseller, you've got this partnership growing, you're a customer. So, you have all these hats, right, and connections with Splunk. What does that do for you you think just in general? What kind of value do you put on that having these multiple perspectives to how they operate whether it's in your environment or what you're doing for your customers using their insights? >> Yeah, I think at the end of the day we're here to make it simpler for customers. So if we do the work, and we invest the time and energy and resources in this partnership, and we go do the validation, we do the joint engineering, we do the joint certification, that's work that customers don't have to do, and that's value that we can deliver to them that whatever reason they buy Splunk for whatever workload or business outcome they're trying to achieve, we accelerate it. That's one of the biggest values, right? And then you look at who do they interact with in the field? Well, it's engineers from our awesome presales team from around the world that we've actually trained in Splunk. So we have now north of 25 folks that have Splunk SE certifications that are actually Dell EMC employees that are out working with Splunk customers to build platforms and achieve that value very, very quickly. And then them understanding that, "Oh, by the way, Dell EMC is also a user of Splunk, "a great customer of Splunk "and a number of interesting use cases "that we're actually replatforming now "and drinking our own Kool Aid so to say," that I think it just lends credibility to it. And that's a lot of the reason why we've made the investments in being part of this awesome show, but also in doing things like providing the applications. So we actually have four apps in Splunkbase that are available to monitor Dell EMC platforms using Splunk. So I think customers just get a wholistic experience that they've got a technology partner that wants to see them be successful deploying Splunk. >> I wonder if we could talk about stacks, because I've heard Chad Sack-edge talk about stack wars, tongue and cheek, but his point is that customers have to make bets. You've heard him talk about this. You've got the cloud stacks, whether it's Azure or AWS or Google. Obviously VMware has a prominent stack, maybe the most prominent stack. And there's still the open source, whether it's Hadoop or OpenStack. Should we be thinking about the Splunk stack? Is that emerging as a stack, or is it a combination of Splunk and these other? >> You know, we actually had that conversation today with some of the partner engineering team, and I don't know that I would today. I think Splunk continues to be, it's its own application in many cases. And I actually think that a lot of what Splunk is about is actually making sure that those stacks all work. So there was even announcements made today about a new app. So they have a new app for Pivotal Cloud Foundry, right? So if you think about stacks for application development, if you're going to hit push on a new application you're going to need to monitor it. Splunk is one of those things that persistent. The data is persistent. You want to keep large amounts of data for long periods of time so that you can build your models, understand what's really going on in the background, but then you need that real time reporting of, "Hey, if I hit push on a Cloud Foundry app "and all of a sudden I have an impact "to the service that's underlying it "because there's some microservice that gets broken, "if I don't have that monitoring platform "that can tell me that and correlate that event "and give me the guidance to not only alert against it "but actually go investigate it and act against it, "I'm in trouble." The stacks, I think many of them have their own monitoring capabilities, but I think Splunk has proven it that they are invested in being the monitoring and the data fabric that I think is wanting to help all the stacks be successful. So I don't necessarily put it in the stack. And I kind of don't put Hadoop in its own stack, either, because I think at the end of the day Hadoop needs a stack for deployment models. So you may see it go from a physical construct of being, a bit trying to be its own software that controls the underlying hardware, but I think you're seeing abstraction layers happen everywhere. They're containerizing Hadoop now. Virtualization of Hadoop is legit. Most of the big cloud providers talk about the decoupling of compute from storage in Hadoop for persistent and transient clusters. So I think the stacks will be interesting for application development, and applications like Splunk will be one of two things. They'll either consume one of those stacks for deployment or they'll be a standalone monitoring tool that makes us successful. >> So you don't see in the near term anyway Splunk becoming an application development platform the way that a lot of the-- >> Cory: They may have visions of it. That's not, yeah. >> They haven't laid that out there. It's something that we've been bounding around here. >> Yeah, I think it's interesting. Again, I think it goes back to .. Because the flexibility in what you can do with Splunk. I mean we've developed some of our own applications to help monitor Dell EMC storage platforms, and that's, it's interesting. But in terms of building what we'd I guess we'd consider like traditional seven factor app development, I don't know that it provides it. >> Yeah, well it's interesting because, I'm noodling here, Doug Merritt said, "Hey, we think we're going to be the next five billion, "10 billion, 20 billion dollar ecosystem slash company," and so you start to wonder, "Okay, how does that TAM grow to that point? That's one avenue that we considered. I want to talk about the anatomy of a transaction and how that's evolved. Colin, you mentioned Client Server, and you think about data rich applications going from sort of systems of record and the transactions associated with that. And while there were many going to Client Server and HTTP, and then now mobile apps really escalated that. And now with containers, with microservices, the amount of data and the complexity of transactions is greater and greater and greater. As a technologist, I wonder if you could sort of add some color to that. >> Yeah, I think as we kind of go down a path of application stacks are interesting, but at the end of the day we're still delivering a service, right? At the end of the day it's always about how do I deliver service, whether it's a business service, it's a mobile application, which is a service where I could get closer to my customer, I could transact business with them on a different model, I think all of it ... Because everything has gone digital, everything we do is digital, you're seeing more and more machines get created, there's more and more IP addressed devices out there on the planet that are creating data, and this machine generated data deluge that we're under right now it ain't slowing down, right? And so as we create these additional devices, somebody has got to make sense of this stuff. And if you listen to a lot of the analysts they talk about machine data is the most target rich in terms of business value, and it's their fastest growing. And it's now at a scale because we've now created so many devices that are creating their own logs, creating their own transactional data, right, there's just not that many tools that out of the box make it simple to collect the data, search the data, and derive value from it in the way that Splunk does. You can get to a lot of the things that Splunk can deliver from an outcome other ways with other platforms, but the simplicity and the ability to do it with a platform that out of the box does it and has a vibrant community of folks that will help you get there, it's a pretty big deal. So I think it's, you know, it's interesting. I don't know, like under the covers microservices are certainly interesting. They're still services. They're just smaller and packaged slightly differently and shared in a different way. >> And a lot more of them. >> Yeah, and scaled differently, right? And I totally get that, but at the end of the day we're still from a Splunk perspective and from a data perspective, we've still got to make sense of all of it. >> Right, well, I think the difference is just the amount of data. You talked about kind of new computing models, serverless sort of, stateless, IoT coming into play. It's just the data curve is reshaping. >> Well, it's not just the amount of data, it's the number of sources. The data is exploding, but also, as Cory mentioned, it's exploding because it's coming from so many places. Your refrigerator can generate data for you now, right? Every single ... Everything that generates Internet, anything doing anything now really has a microprocessor in it. I don't know if you guys saw my escape room at VMworld. There were 12 microprocessors running this escape room. So one of the things we played about doing was bring it here and trying to Splunk the escape room to actually see real time what the data was doing. And we weren't able to ship it back from Barcelona in time, but it would've been interesting to see, because you can see just the centers that are in that room real time and being able to correlate all that. And that's the value of Splunk is being able to pull that from those disparate sources altogether and give you those analytics. >> Yeah, it's funny you talk about an IoT use case. So we've got these... Our partner, who's a joint partner of both Dell EMC and Splunk, we actually have these Misfit devices that are activity trackers. And we're actually-- >> Misfit device? >> Misfit. Yeah, it's a brand. >> John: Love it. >> It's fitting, I think. But we have these devices that we gave away to a number of the attendees here, and we actually asked them if they're willing to participate. They can actually use the app on your phone to grab the data. And by simply going to a website they can allow us to pull the data from their device about their activity, about their sleep. And so we actually have in our booth and in Arrow's booth we're Splunking Conf and it's called How Happy is Conf? And so you can actually see Splunk running, and by the way, it's running in Arrow's lab. It's running on top of Dell EMC infrastructure designed for Splunk. You can actually see us Splunking how happy conf attendees are. And we're measuring happiness by their sleep. How much sleep-- >> John: Sleep quality and-- >> The exercise, the number of steps, right? So we have a little battle going between-- >> Is more sleep or less sleep happy? >> Are consumption behaviors also tracked on that? I just want to know. I'm curious. >> It's voluntary. You'd have to provide that. >> Alright, because that's another measure of happiness. >> It certainly is. But it's just a great use case where we talk about IoT and the number of sources of data that Splunk as a platform ... It's very, very simple to deploy that platform, have a web service that's able to pull that data from an API from a platform that's not ours, right, but bring that data into our environment, use Splunk to ingest and index that data, then actually create some interesting dashboards. It's a real world use case, right? Now, how much people really want to (mumbles) Splunk health devices we'll determine, but in the IoT context it's an absolute analog for what a lot of organizations are trying to do. >> Interesting, good stuff. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. We appreciate that. Cory, it's probably not the real deal, but as close as I'm going to go. Good luck with your session. We appreciate the time to both of you, and you and your Misfit. Back with more here on theCUBE coming up in just a bit here in Washington D.C. (techno music)

>>Que presents HP Discover 2022. Brought to You by HP >>Good morning, everyone. It's the Cube live in Las Vegas. Day two of our coverage of HP Discover 2022 from the Venetian Expo Centre. Lisa Martin and David want a what a day we had yesterday and today. Unbelievable >>for today. Big Big day today, >>Big day Today we've got a lot. We got some big heavy hitters on talking with HP customers. Partners, leadership. We've a couple of guests up with us next. Going to be talking more about the ecosystem. He's welcome. Corey Dire, the chief revenue officer, Digital Realty and Cliff Evans, senior director. H P E Green like partner ecosystem Guys. Great to have you on the >>programme. Thank you. Great to be here. >>Thank you for having us excited to be here >>with. So that's so that's harness that excitement. Cory, talk to us about the partnership. The announcement? What's going on there with Digital Realty and Green like? >>Yeah, we're crazy excited about it. You know, we've got customers dealing with data, gravity and the opportunity around that and how they could make use of it. And then they're thinking through digital transformation. How how you doing? Multi cloud and they need a partnership. To do that in this partnership with Green Leg and digital is perfect solution for them. So I'm crazy excited to be here with Cliff absolute with all of you to talk about it and hopefully build out a great partnership in relationship with HP. >>Talk to us. Sure, you're crazy Excitement >>club? Absolutely no. I think it is absolutely fantastic Partnership. I think the term is coming together as organisations. Bringing the two platforms together isn't it is an amazing thing that we have for customers, customers we know they want. They want a cloud experience. But really, they want to do that without really the DC footprint that had previously. So how did they do that in a way that really works for them in a secure client secure, sustainable way. But with the cloud experience. Really, the combination of the two pieces coming together really makes that happen, and that is what that's exciting. So we >>dig in to the two things that you mentioned Cory digital transformation and multiply. When I go back to the early days of cloud, it was that girl, you know, nobody's going to do anything you know ever again in the data centre. You know Charles Phillips, the the CEO of in four, famously said, Friends don't let friends, Bill Data centres, right? Everything's going in the cloud. So a lot of people predicted, You know, guys like you were going to be in trouble. The exact opposite happened. The market took off. So you mentioned digital transformation of multi cloud. Can we peel the onion on that? What? What is it about those two items? Are there other trends? They're driving your business, >>you know, You tied right on to to where it started. All enterprises started going to the club and then they got to the cloud and there was more that they needed to make that rial. I talk about multi cloud. You're going to use different cloud providers for different opportunities and different applications. And so you have to start thinking about how does this work in a world where you're gonna go to multiple clouds, multiple locations and what it really drove? It is the need for Cole location to make this because you've got a distributed architecture in order to enable all of this and then having to have us help you out with it. And partners like HP. That's part of where it comes from. But if you think through going to the cloud, can you stay there? Is that the full solution? You need to secure sustainable solution for that. One of the opportunities for us around that is that if you're building data centres for yourself on Prem, you don't have all the cloud access we do. We've got more cloud access points than anybody. So that helps in this digital transformation. >>How How much home? I'm sorry, Didn't mean to you how much homogeneity is there are our clients or customers saying, Hey, I kind of want the same experience in the same infrastructure. Same same. Or they saying, Hey, I want to do stuff in Digital Realty that I can't get from, you know, a cloud provider, Oracle Rack. You know, something like that, >>I would tell you that they come to us from all the partners. So we are partner community. We are not going up the stack anywhere on that. We do are we do our part. We're really good at doing the data centres really good at building data. They descended sustainable. Our position in the market is sustainability around it. We were the first to sign up on the science based initiatives for zero kind of carbon neutrality and in the future in 2030. And so yeah, so I think there's the partner aspect that they need help with on it to drive that Yeah. >>And I think from that from the HP Green Lake perspective, I think customers they very much want that that cloud experience. But I want to do on their own terms. The partnership allows that to happen on Gapen simply the cloud experiencing with the green light cloud platform to really go and deliver that genuine cloud experience and then building cloud services. On top of that, they get all the benefits that they would have from a public cloud experience, but done in the way that they would prefer to do it. So it's bringing those pieces together on >>I think the other side of you asked if it was it was the same across the board and ubiquitous. It's very bespoke. Solutions weaken D'oh! Every customer we have has a different footprint. Most from the multinationals. So we think through where their data is, where it needs to be accessed where their customers are, where their employees are, what makes the most sense. And then the partnership we have with HP into a whole lot for making very bespoke solution for that customer and help them be successful. Journey >>s O on. That s o. So what we've done with destroy lt is we have a specific offer around how we go to market with this really going how customers So we call it Green Light with co location. It's all about really positioning on offer to customers that says, Look, we can go and do this with you and do it simply and really make it happen very quickly and efficiently. So the customer ends up with a single contract in a single invoice for Green Lake Cloud Services on the co location piece, all in one single contracts. That just makes it a lot easier in terms of organising on a really big part of that as well is that our involvement is also spans right from the design to the implementation to support. So we do the whole thing to really help organisations golf and do this. So that's the big for me. The big differentiator. So rather than just having Green Lake in Cloud Services, were saying, Look, we can now do the Coehlo piece and they can really take the whole thing to a whole new level in terms of that public cloud experience >>in the sari and that that that invoice comes from HPD or Digital Realty is bundled into that >>correct? Yes, directly through the channel. We can sell that in a number of different ways. Customers get that that single invoice on a big part of that as well, just going a little bit deeper on that. So what we do is we We use a part of the company called Data Centre Technology Services, which are a great kind of consulting organisation with tremendous experience and something like 3000 projects across 40 countries from the very smallest of the very largest of data centre implementation. So all of that really makes the whole thing a lot easier from a customer's perspective in terms of designing, implementing and then supporting. So you pull all of that together. It's fantastic >>and I think it's really changed to add on to that partner in prison. So customers, now we're thinking about it differently and data centres differently, and they see us as a strategic partner along with HP. To go after this used to be space, power and calling. Now it's How much connectivity do you have? What your sustainability profile? What's your security profile? How do you secure this data? Date is the lifeblood of all these companies and you have to have a really secure, sustainable solution for them, >>right? That's absolutely critical for every industry. Talk about the specific value prop at a bespoke co location solution delivers to customers. Maybe you got a favourite customer example that you think really articulates the value of this partnership. >>So I think a combination. So so I think we touched on a lot of it, actually. So there's obviously the data centre aspect itself in terms of with the footprint that realty have across the world, you can pick and choose the data centre in the class of data centre that you want in terms of your Leighton see and connectivity that you want. Then really, it's the green make peace in terms of the flexibility that you get with that really is that value. And as I touched on the Green Lake with Cole Oh, I think for me is from our perspective, I think the biggest piece of value that we provide there to really go make it happen. Yeah, >>there's about 70 applications right now that are part of Green Lake Polo that you can bespoke for what you need to. You can think around your specific solutions that you need, and we've got it all right there with HP Green like and follow for us. And because we have a 290 data centre footprint across 50 markets, it gives us the opportunity really be the data centre provider in the Partner for H P, pretty much anywhere but with connective ity everywhere. >>When you say 70 applications, these the 70 services are you talking about talking >>about? Okay, Category 70 services. There's a lot of stuff. >>Cory, when you talked about sustainability a couple of times, is a really important ingredient of the customer decision. Why is it because they're indirectly paying the power bill or is because that's the right thing to do? And they care. There's increased. People care about it more because you go back a while ago. People way always talked about green it, but it was all lip service. Is that changing or is that there? Is there an economics >>changing in a really big way? Almost every conversation I have with customers is how are you doing Sustainability. So if they're doing an on Prem, that's not their core capabilities. They don't know how to do that. On our end, I mentioned our SP R science based initiatives that we signed up for. But how do we enable that? Enable it for how do we build in designer data centres? How do we actually work them and operate them? And then how do we go after all the green sources of sustainable energy including, I think since 2015, we've issued six billion in green bonds around that same support of it. So yeah, >>and your customer can then I presume, report that on their sustainability report a >>good way to think about it. You no longer have your data centre at its sometimes less efficient way than way are we're really good at building sustainable data centres, and then you can actually get some credits back and forth, >>just from agreement. Perspective. So Green Lake. So there's a specific Forrester Impact report that looks a green lake on how it how it performs from sustainability. Perspective on Greenlee really is giving you their 30% reduction in your energy consumption. So there's a big kind of win there as well, I think. Which is then, >>why? Where does that come from? >>So it Zim part that kind of the avoidance of over provisioning such that you going right size things, Then you have you have you have a certain amount of reserve capacity that you're using them just using the extra consumption piece when you need it. So rather than having everything running at full speed, it really is kind of struggling as to how that work. So you get a combination of effects >>with consulting and the thoughtfulness around this bespoke solution that you have. You end up needing fewer servers, pure technology that drives less power consumption and therefore you get a lot of this same really base it down. You >>talked about the savings you talked about the simplification delivery perspective. Talk about the implementation. What's the time to value that Organisations can glean from this partnership >>superfast So So yeah this This does accelerate the whole process from from initial kind of opportunity if you like and customer inquiry through to actual implementation So previously this would take considerable amount of time in terms of to ing and froing between multiple organisations on Now what we do is coordinate that do it efficiently and effectively So D. C. T s Data Sentinel services team very closely. Just have those connections often do those things incredibly quickly and it does accelerate the whole time >>and they're tied in with our team is well around. Where's the leighton? See where the solutions Because we're really thinking about what is your stack looked like from an HP perspective, but then where you need to deploy it so that you have access to the clouds You have the right proper Leighton see across your environment and you really haven't distributed architecture that works the best for you and your company. >>So this is probably answer those questions Probably both, but I'm asking anyway, I've always been a repatriation sceptic, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. You guys have other data. And maybe this is part of what one of my blind spots question is, is what's driving your business in terms of the EU's case? Is it organisations saying Hey, we want to get out of the data centre business way Don't want to put everything into the cloud but we're going to go on a digital realty and being green leg and we're gonna move into that cola Or is it? People say, You know, while we over rotated into the cloud, you were going to come back. So it's >>both. It's both, >>Yeah, in the empire. The credit. >>I think there are a lot of customers with good intentions on going to the cloud, and then there's some cost with it that maybe they didn't fully factor in it at that time. And now you've got the ability around these bespoke solutions to really right size every bit of this. And when they originally did it, they didn't think through a distributor architecture. They thought my own prim, and then I'm just gonna burst everything that a cloud that's no longer the case, and it's not really the most efficient way to your point about repatriation. They start pulling their storage back in. Well, where do you want your data? Where do you want your storage? You wanted as close as you can to the clouds for that capability and in a solution that's wrapped around it makes it very simple for you. >>I think the repatriation is very real and is increasing, eh? So we're seeing a lot of it in terms of activity and customers really trying to understand the cost that they're incurring now from a public cloud perspective. And how can they do that differently? In fact, with combined offer that we have it, it makes it a lot easier to compare. So, yeah, that really is accelerating because you don't >>see it in the macro numbers. I mean, just to be honest, you see the cloud guys combined growing 35%. And is that because your business is in transition from traditional on prime model, too, and as a service model, and so you've got that imbalance and it gets hidden in >>all that, and I think it's I think it's a new wave of things that are happening. Yeah. I mean, there's a there's a lot of things, obviously, that makes complete sense to me in Public Cloud, but I do think there's been an over rotation towards it, so I think now that realisation and it's going to take time to kind of pick that. But it's absolutely happening. There are a lot of opportunities that we've gotten some very big ones I'd love to talk about. Can't quite talk about them just get but really, where there's big, big savings in terms of what they're paying from a public cloud perspective, Really, what they want is that full management cloud service to go make it happen. So the combination of the data centre piece to Green Lake piece and then some management services, whether they're from ourselves or from party community, from manage service providers that we also work with, that gives them the complete package. >>So I have another premise. A lot of it, of course, is traditionally been focused on internal, and I feel like there's a new era coming. It's talks of the ecosystem. Are you seeing customers not only running there it in digital realty and connecting to the cloud in a hybrid fashion, but also actually building new value and building businesses that are customer facing on that that air monetize herbal. Are you seeing that? Is that happening and having examples, even generic? >>Well, basic from our perspective, our partner community, that's what they do. We have a tonne of enterprise customers, but I'll need to connect and integrate the data that you have doesn't do anything for you, Fitz on its own. And it's not interacting with other data points. And it's not around interacting with other customers, other solutions in one night. So it does help build out a partner community, a solution community for our customers in our data centres and across the >>are their industry patterns emerging. In other words, is that data ecosystems emerging by industry or is a sort of or horizontal? >>There's a mix. So I think there's a lot of lot of financial sector stuff. Yes, certainly. And then certainly manufacturing s O. I think it's interesting that you're getting a bit of a combination, but not a lot of financial sector. >>Of course, the big bags early on that they could build their own cloud. Yeah, now they're probably rethinking that. Yeah, well, maybe >>they're also service providers. When you're that large a za bank on their end. They're doing a lot of work. E. I would also say the other part that a lot of people see as an opportunity is around all the HPC and AI applications as well, in addition to manufacturing distribution. So there's a lot of use cases, a lot of reasons, like us from sort of doing this >>wrap us up with value, perhaps that you're talking Torto Financial Services Organisation or a manufacturing company. What is that 32nd elevator pitch value problem? Why they should go HP Making Digital Realty together. >>So I would say green, like Rico location gives you a single contract. Singling voice, easy to go and design, implement support and go make happen. Sorry, that's very simple way say, very just make it easy >>on. And I would just say thank you on that. It's been great to speak with you guys. And yeah, when you think through that part of it also is a bespoke opportunity to put your data where it needs to be closer to your customers. Closer to the action you were thinking through the rape reiteration of it. A lot of it's being built out there on phones and whatnot. So you've got to think through where your data is and how you managed to >>write and enable every every company in every industry to be a data company. Because that's what, of course, the demanding consumers demanding that demand isn't it is not going to turn down right now. Absolutely. Just thanks so much for David. Very much. Thank you. Together in the ecosystem, there are guests. And Dave l want a I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the key of live from the Venetian Expo Centre in Vegas, Baby. David, I will be back there next guest in a minute.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host. Lisa Martin. We've got two female rock stars here with me next. Stephanie Curry joins us the worldwide head of sales and go to market strategy for AWS at NetApp and Danielle GShock is back one of our QM ISV PSA director at AWS. Looking forward to a great conversation, ladies, about a great topic, Stephanie, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us an overview of your story, how you got into tech and what inspired you. >>Thanks so much, Lisa and Danielle. It's great to be on this show with you. Thank you for that. My name's Stephanie curs. Lisa mentioned I'm the worldwide head of sales for AWS at NetApp and run a global team of sales people that sell all things AWS going back 25 years now, when I first started my career in tech, it was kind of by accident. I'd come from a different background. I have a business background and a technical background from school, but had been in a different career. And I had an opportunity to try something new. I had an ally really that reached out to me and said, Hey, you'd be great for this role. And I thought, I'd take a chance. I was curious. And it, it turned out to be a 25 year career that I'm really, really excited about and, and really thankful for that person for introducing me to the, to the industry >>25 years in counting. I'm sure Danielle, we've talked about your background before. So what I wanna focus on with you is the importance of diversity for high performance. I know what a machine AWS is, and Stephanie, I'll come back to you with the same question, but talk about that, Danielle, from your perspective, that importance for diversity to drive the performance. >>Yeah. I truly believe that, you know, in order to have high performing teams, that you have to have people from all different types of backgrounds and experiences. And we do find that oftentimes being, you know, field facing, if we're not reflecting our customers and connecting with them deeply on, on the levels that they're at, we, we end up missing them. And so for us, it's very important to bring people of lots of different technical backgrounds experiences. And of course, both men, women, and underrepresented minorities, and put that forth to our customers in order to make that connection and to end up with better outcomes. So >>Definitely it's all about outcomes, Stephanie, your perspective and NetApp's perspective on diversity for creating highly performing teams and organizations. >>I really aligned with Danielle on the comment she made. And in addition to that, you know, just from building teams in my career note, we've had three times as many women on my team since we started a year ago and our results are really showing in that as well. We find the teams are stronger, they're more collaborative and to Danielle's point really not only our partners, but our customers themselves. So this really creates connections, which are really, really important to scale our businesses and, and really meet the customer where they're at as well. So huge proponent of that ourselves, and really finding that we have to be intentional in our hiring and intentional in how we attract diversity to our teams. >>So Stephanie let's stay with you. So a three X increase in women on the team in a year, especially the kind of last year that we've had is really incredible. I, I like your, I, your thoughts on there needs to be a, there needs to be focus and, and thought in how teams are hired. Let's talk about attracting and retaining those women now, especially in sales roles, we all know the number, the percentages of women in technical roles, but what are some of the things that, that you do Stephanie, that NetApp does to attract and retain women in those sales roles? >>The, the attracting part's really interesting. And we find that, you know, you, you read the stats and I'd say in my experience, they're also true in the fact that a lot of women would look at a job description and say, I can't do a hundred percent of that. So I'm not even going to apply with the women that we've attracted to our team. We've actually intentionally reached out and targeted those people in a good way to say, Hey, we think you've got what it takes. Some of the feedback I've got from those women are, gosh, I didn't think I could ever get this role. I didn't think I had the skills to do that. And they've been hired and they are doing a phenomenal job. In addition to that, I think a lot of the feedback I've got from these hires are, Hey, it's an aggressive sales is aggressive. Sales is competitive. It's not an environment that I think I can be successful in. And what we show them is bring those softer skills around collaboration, around connection, around building teams. And they do, they do bring a lot of that to the team. Then they see others like them there and they know they can be successful cuz they see others like them on the team. >>The whole concept of we can't be what we can't see, but we can be what we can see is so important. You said a couple things, Stephanie, that really stuck with me. And one of 'em was an, an interview on the cube I was doing, I think a couple weeks ago about women in tech. And the stat that we talked about was that women will apply will not apply for a job unless they meet 100% of the skills and the requirements that it's listed, but men will, if they only meet 60. And I, that just shocked me that I thought, you know, I, I can understand that imposter syndrome is real. It's a huge challenge, but the softer skills, as you mentioned, especially in the last two years, plus the ability to communicate, the ability to collaborate are incredibly important to, to drive that performance of, of any team of any business. >>Absolutely. >>Danielle, talk to me about your perspective in AWS as well for attracting and retaining talent and, and, and particularly in some of those challenging roles like sales that as Stephanie said, can be known as aggressive. >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, my team is focused on the technical aspect of the field and we definitely have an uphill battle for sure. Two things we are focused on first and foremost is looking at early career women and that how we, how can we bring them into this role, whether in they're in support functions, cl like answering the phone for support calls, et cetera, and how, how can we bring them into this organization, which is a bit more strategic, more proactive. And then the other thing that as far as retention goes, you know, sometimes there will be women who they're on a team and there are no other women on that team. And, and for me, it's about building community inside of AWS and being part of, you know, we have women at solution architecture organizations. We have, you know, I just personally connect people as well and feel like, oh, you should meet this person. Oh, you should talk to that person. Because again, sometimes they can't see someone on their team like them and they just need to feel anchored, especially as we've all been, you know, kind of stuck at home during the pandemic, just being able to make those connections with women like them has been super important and just being a long tenure Amazonian, that's definitely one thing I'm able to, to bring to the table as well. >>That's so important and impactful and spreads across organizations in a good way. Daniel let's stick with you. Let's talk about some of the allies that you've had sponsors, mentors that have really made a difference. And I said that in past tense, but I also mean in present tense, who are some of those folks now that really inspire you? >>Yeah. I mean, I definitely would say that one of my mentors and someone who ha has been a sponsor of my career has Matt ion, who is one of our control tower GMs. He has really sponsored my career and definitely been a supporter of mine and pushed me in positive ways, which has been super helpful. And then other of my business partners, you know, Sabina Joseph who's cube alum as well. She definitely has been, was a fabulous partner to work with. And, you know, between the two of us for a period of time, we definitely felt like we could, you know, conquer the world. It's very great to go in with a, with another strong woman, you know, and, and get things done inside of an organization like AWS. >>Absolutely. And know S I've had, I've been agreed here several times. So Stephanie, same question for you. You talked a little bit about your kind of, one of your original early allies in the tech industry, but talk to me about allies sponsors, mentors who have, and continue to make a difference in your life. >>Yeah. And, you know, I think it's a great differentiation as well, right? Because I think that mentors teach us sponsors show us the way and allies make room for us at the table. And that is really key difference. I thinks also as women leaders, we need to make room for others at the table too, and not forget those softer skills that we bring to the table. Some of the things that Danielle mentioned as well about making those connections for others, right. And making room for them at the table. Some of my allies, a lot of them are men. Brian ABI was my first mentor. He actually is in the distribution, was in distribution with advent tech data no longer there, Cory Hutchinson, who's now at Hashi Corp. He's also another ally of mine and remains an ally of mine, even though we're not at the same company any longer. So a lot of these people transcend careers and transcend different positions that I've held as well and make room for us. And I think that's just really critical when we're looking for allies. And when allies are looking for us, >>I love how you described allies, mentors and sponsors Stephanie. And the difference, I didn't understand the difference between a mentor and a sponsor until a couple of years ago. Do you talk with some of those younger females on your team so that when they come into the organization and maybe they're fresh outta college, or maybe they've transitioned into tech so that they can also learn from you and understand the importance and the difference between the allies and the sponsors and the mentors? >>Absolutely. And I think that's really interesting because I do take an extra approach and extra time to really reach out to the women that have joined the team. One, I wanna make sure they stay right. I don't want them feeling, Hey, I'm alone here and I need to, I need to go do something else. And they are located around the world, on my team. They're also different age groups. So early in career, as well as more senior people and really reaching out, making sure they know that I'm there. But also as Danielle had mentioned, connecting them to other people in the community that they can reach out to for those same opportunities and making room for them >>Make room at the table. It's so important. And it can, you never know what a massive difference and impact you can make on someone's life. And I, and I bet there's probably a lot of mentors and sponsors and allies of mine that would be surprised to know the massive influence they've had Danielle back. Let's talk about some of the techniques that you employ that AWS employs to make the work environment, a great place for women to really thrive and, and be retained as Stephanie was saying. Of course that's so important. >>Yeah. I mean, definitely I think that the community building, as well as we have a bit more programmatic mentorship, we're trying to get to the point of having a more programmatic sponsorship as well. But I think just making sure that, you know, both E everything from recruit to onboard to ever boarding that they they're the women who come into the organization, whether it's they're coming in on the software engineering side or the field side or the sales side that they feel as though they have someone working with them to help them drive their career. Those are the key things that were, I think from an organizational perspective are happening across the board. For me personally, when I run my organization, I'm really trying to make sure that people feel that they can to me at any time open door policy, make sure that they're surfacing any times in which they are feeling excluded or anything like that, any challenges, whether it be with a customer, a partner, or with a colleague. And then also of course, just making sure that I'm being a good sponsor to, to people on my team. That is key. You can talk about it, but you have to start with yourself as well. >>That's a great point. You you've got to, to start with yourself and really reflect on that and, and look, am I, am I embodying what it is that I need? And not that I know they need that focused, thoughtful intention on that is so importants, let's talk about some of the techniques that you use that NetApp uses to make the work environment, a great place for those women are marginalized communities to really thrive. >>Yeah. And I appreciate it. And it much like Danielle and much like AWS, we have some of those more structured programs, right around sponsorship and around mentorship, probably some growth there, opportunities for allies, because I think that's more of a newer concept in really an informal structure around the allies, but something that we're growing into at NetApp on my team personally, I think leading by example is really key. And unfortunately, a lot of the life stuff still lands on the women, whether we like it or not, I have a very active husband in our household, but I still carry when it push comes to shove it's on me. And I wanna make sure that my team knows it's okay to take some time and do the things you need to do with your family. I'm I show up as myself authentically and I encourage them to do the same. >>So it's okay to say, Hey, I need to take a personal day. I need to focus on some stuff that's happening in my personal life this week. Now obviously make sure your job' covered, but just allowing some of that softer vulnerability to come into the team as well, so that others, men and women can feel they can do the same thing. And that it's okay to say, I need to balance my life and I need to do some other things alongside. So it's the formal programs, making sure people have awareness on them. I think it's also softly calling people out on biases and saying, Hey, I'm not sure if you know, this landed that way, but I just wanted to make you aware. And usually the feedback is, oh my gosh, I didn't know. And could you coach me on something that I could do better next time? So all of this is driven through our NetApp formal programs, but then it's also how you manifest it on the teams that we're leading. >>Absolutely. And sometimes having that mirror to reflect into can be really eye-opening and, and allow you to, to see things in a completely different light, which is great. You both talked about kind of being what you can see. And, and I know both companies are obsess customer obsessed in a good way. Talk to me a little bit, Danielle, go back over to you about the AWS NetApp partnership. Some of the maybe alignment on, on performance on obviously you guys are very well aligned in terms of that, but also it sounds like you're quite aligned on diversity and inclusion. >>Well, we definitely do. We have the best partnerships with companies in which we have these value alignments. So I think that is a positive thing, of course, but just from a, from a partnership perspective, you know, from my five now plus years of being a part of the APN, this is, you know, one of the most significant years with our launch of FSX for NetApp, with that key key service, which we're making available natively on AWS. I, I can't think of a better Testament to the, to the partnership than that. And that's doing incredibly well and it really resonates with our customers. And of course it started with customers and their need for NetApp. So, you know, that is a reflection, I think, of the success that we're having together. >>And Stephanie talk to about the partnership from your perspective, NetApp, AWS, what you guys are doing together, cultural alignment, but also your alignment on really bringing diversity into drive performance. >>Yeah, I think it's a, a great question. And I have to say it's just been a phenomenal year. Our relationship has started before our first party service with FSX N but definitely just the trajectory between the two companies since the announcement about nine months ago has just taken off to a, a new level. We feel like an extended part of the family. We worked together seamlessly. A lot of the people on my team often say we feel like Amazonians, and we're really part of this transformation at NetApp from being that storage hardware company, into being an ISV and a cloud company. And we could not do this without the partnership with AWS and without the first party service of Fs XM that we've recently released. I think that those joint values that Danielle referred to are critical to our success, starting with customer obsession and always making sure that we are doing the right thing for the customer. >>We coach our team teams all the time on if you are doing the right thing for the customers, you cannot do anything wrong. Just always put the customer at the dis in the center of your decisions. And I think that there is a lot of best practice sharing and collaboration as we go through this change. And I think a lot of it is led by the diverse backgrounds that are on the team, female, male race, and so forth, and just to really have different perspectives and different experiences about how we approach this change. So we definitely feel like we're part of the family. We are absolutely loving working with the AWS team and our team knows that we are the right place, the right time with the right people. >>I love that last question for each of you. And I wanna stick with you Stephanie advice to your younger self, think back 25 years. What advice would you seen what you've accomplished and maybe the, the turns and, and serendipitous route that you've taken along the way, what would you advise your younger Stephanie self? >>I would say keep being curious, right? Keep being curious, keep asking questions. And sometimes when you get a no, it's not a bad thing, it just means not right now and find out why and, and try to get feedback as to why maybe that wasn't the right opportunity for you, but, you know, just go for what you want. Continue to be curious, continue to ask questions and find a support network of people around you that wanna help you because they are there and they are, they wanna see you be successful too. So never be shy about that stuff. >>Absolutely. And I always say failure does not have to be a bad F word. A no can be the beginning of something. Amazing. Danielle, same question for you. Thinking back to when you first started in your career, what advice would you give your younger self? >>Yeah, I think the advice I'd give my younger self would be, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. It's certainly, you know, coming from an engineering background, maybe you wanna stay behind the scenes, not, not do a presentation, not do a public speaking event, those types of things, but back to what the community really needs. This thing, you know, I genuinely now took me a while to realize it, but I realized I needed to put myself out there in order to, you know, allow younger women to see what they could be. So that would be the advice I would give. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. >>Absolutely. That advice that you both gave are, is so fantastic, so important and so applicable to everybody. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there, ask questions. Don't be afraid of a, no, that it's all gonna happen at some point or many points along the way. That can also be good. So thank you ladies. You inspired me. I appreciate you sharing what AWS and NetApp are doing together to strengthen diversity, to strengthen performance and the advice that you both shared for your younger was brilliant. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you >>For my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase. See you next time.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the cubes coverage here in San Francisco, California, a Davis summit, 2022, the beginning of the event season, as it comes back, little smaller footprint, a lot of hybrid events going on, but this is actually a physical event to his summit in new York's coming in the summer. We'll be there too with the cube on the set. We're getting back in the Groove's psych to be back. We were at reinvent, uh, as well, and we'll see more and more cube, but you're can see a lot of virtual cube outta hybrid cube. We wanna get all those conversations, try to get more interviews, more flow going. But right now I'm excited to have Corey Quinn here on the back on the cube chief cloud economists with duct bill, a group, he's the founder, uh, and chief content person always got great angles, fun comedy, authoritative Corey. Great to see you. Thank >>You. Thanks. Coming on. Sure is a lot of words to describe is shit posting, which is how I describe what I tend to do. Most days, >>Shit posting is an art form now. And if you look at mark, Andrew's been doing a lot of shit posting lately. All a billionaires are shit posting, but they don't know how to do it. Like they're not >>Doing it right. There's something opportunity there. It's like, here's how to be even more obnoxious and incisive. It's honestly the most terrifying scenario for anyone is if I have that kind of budget to throw at my endeavors, it's like, I get excited with a nonsense I can do with a $20 gift card for an AWS credit compared to, oh well, if I could buy a midsize island to in doing this from, oh, then we're having fun. >>This shit posting trend. Interesting. I was watching a thread go on about, saw someone didn't get a job because of their shit posting and the employer didn't get it. And then someone on this side, I'll hire the guy cuz I get that's highly intelligent shit posting. So for the audience that doesn't know what shit posting is, what is shit posting? >>It's more or less talking about the world of enterprise technology, which even that sentence is hard to finish without falling asleep and toppling out of my chair in front of everyone on the livestream, but it's doing it in such a way that brings it to life that says the quiet part. A lot of the audience is thinking, but generally doesn't say either because they're polite or not a jackass or more prosaically are worried about getting fired for better or worse. I don't have have that particular constraint, >>Which is why people love you. So let's talk about what you, what you think is, uh, worthy and not worthy in the industry right now, obviously, uh, coupons coming up in Spain, which they're having a physical event, you see the growth of cloud native Amazon's evolving Adams, especially new CEO. Andy's move on to be the chief of all Amazon. Just so I, the cover of was it time magazine, um, he's under a lot of stress. Amazon's changed. Invoice has changed. What's working. What's not, what's rising, what's falling. What's hot. What's not, >>It's easy to sit here and criticize almost anything. These folks do. They're they're effectively in a fishbowl, but I have trouble imagining the logistics. It takes to wind up handling the catering for a relat a downscale event like this one this year, let alone running a 1.7 million employee company having to balance all the competing challenges and pressures and the rest. I, I just can't fathom what it would be like to look at all of AWS. And it's, it's sprawling immense that dominates our entire industry and say, okay, this is a good start, but I, I wanna focus on something with a broader remit. What is that? How do you even get into that position? And you can't win once you're there. All you can do is hold onto the tiger and hope you don't get mold. Well, >>There's a lot of force for good conversations. Seeing a lot of that going on, Amazon's trying to port eight of us is trying to portray themselves as you know, the Pathfinder, you know, you're the pioneer, um, force for good. And I get that. I think that's a good angle as cloud goes mainstream. It's still the question of, we had a guy on just earlier, who was a skydiving instructor and we were joking about the early days of cloud. Like that was like skydiving, build a parachute open, you know, and now it's saying kind of thing, as you move to edge, things are like reliable in some areas, but still new, new fringe, new areas. That's crazy. Well, >>Since the last time we've spoken, uh, Steve Schmidt is now the CISO for all of Amazon and his backfill replacement. The AWS CISO is CJ. Moses who as a hobby race as a semi-pro race car driver to my understanding, which either, I don't know what direction to take that in either. This is what he does to relax or ultimately, or ultimately it's. Huh? That, that certainly says something about risk assessment. I'm not entirely sure what, but okay. Either way, sounds like more exciting, like better >>Have a replacement ready <laugh> in case something gonna was wrong on the track, >>Highly available >>CSOs. I gotta say one of the things I do like in the recent trend is that the tech companies are getting into the formula one, which I was never a fan of until I watched that Netflix series. But when you look at the formula one, it's pretty cool. Cause it's got some tech angles, I get the whole data instrumentation thing, but the most coolest thing about formula one is they have these new rigs out. Yeah. Where you can actually race in e-sports with, there are people in pure simulation of the race car. You gotta get the latest and video graphics card, but it's basically a tricked out PC with amazing monitors and you have all the equipment of F1 and you're basically simulating racing. >>Oh, it's great too. And I can see the appeal of these tech companies getting into it because these things are basically rocket chips. When those cars go like they're sitting there, we cans instrument every last part of what is going on inside that vehicle. And then AWS crops up. And we can bill on every one of those dimensions too. And it's like slow down their hasty pudding one step at a time. But I do see the appeal. >>So I gotta ask you about, uh, what's going on in your world. I know you have a lot of great success. We've been following you in the queue for many, many years. Got a great newsletter, check out Corey Quinn's newsletter, uh, screaming in the cloud program. Uh, you're on the cutting edge and you've got a great balance between really being snarky and, and, and really being delivering content. That's exciting, uh, for people, uh, with a little bit of an edge, um, how's that going? Uh, what's the blowback, any blowback lately? Has there been uptick? What was, what are some of the things you're hearing from your audience, more Corey or Corey, and then of course the, the PR team's calling you >>The weird thing about having an audience beyond a certain size is far and away as a landslide. The most common response I get is silence where it's huh? I'm emailing an awful lot of people at last week in AWS every week and okay. They must not have heard me it. That is not actually true. People just generally don't respond to email because who responds to email newsletters, that sounds like something, a lunatic might do same story with response to live streams and podcasts. It's like, I'm gonna call into that am radio show and give them a piece of my mind. People generally don't do that. >>We should do that. Actually. I think sure would call in. Oh, I, >>I think >>I guarantee we had that right now. People would call in and say, Cory, what do you think about X? >>Yeah. It not, everyone understands the full context of what I do. And in fact, increasingly few people do and that's fine. I, I keep forgetting that sometimes people do not see what I'm doing in the same light that I do. And that's fine. Blowback has been largely minimal. Honestly, I am surprised anything about how little I have gotten over the last five years of doing this, but it would be easier to dismiss me if I weren't generally. Right. When, okay, so you launch this new service and it seems pretty crappy to me cuz when I try and build something, it falls over and begs for help. And people might not like hearing that, but it's what customers are finding too. Yeah. I really am the voice of the customer. >>You know, I always joke with Dave ante about how John Fort's always at, uh, um, reinvent getting the interview with jazzy now, Andy we're there, you're there. And so we have these rituals at the events. It's all cool. Um, one of the rituals I like about your, um, your content is you like to get on the naming product names. Um, and, and, and, and, and kind of Google from that. Now why I like is because I used to work at ETT Packard where they used to name things as like engineers, HP 1 0 5, or we can't call, we >>Have a new monitor. How are we gonna name it? Throw the wireless keyboard down the stairs again. And there you go. Yeah. >>It's and the old joke at HP was if they, if they invented SU uh, sushi, they'd say, yeah, we can't call sushi. It's cold, dead fish. That's what it is. And so the joke was cold. Dead fish is a better name than sushi. So, you know, fun. So what's the, what are the, how's the Amazon doing in there? Have they changed their naming, uh, strategy, uh, on some of their, their >>Producting. So they're going in different directions. When they named Amazon Aurora, they decided to explore a new theme of Disney princesses as they go down those paths. And some things are more descriptive. Some people are clearly getting bonused on a number of words. They can shove into it. Like the better a service is the longer it's name. Like AWS systems manager, session manager is a great one. I love the service ridiculous name. They have a systems manager, parameter store, which is great. They have secrets manager, which does the same thing. It's two words less, but that one costs my in a way that systems manage through parameter store does not. It's fun. >>What's your, what's your favorite combination of acronyms >>Combination >>Of you got E Ks. You got EMR, you got EC two, you got S3 SQS. Well, RedShift's not an acronym. You >>Gots is one of my personal favorites because it's either elastic block store or elastic bean stock, depending into highly on the context of the conversation. They still >>Up Beanstalk or is that still around? >>Oh, they never turn anything off. They like the Antigo, Google turns things off while they're still building it. Whereas Amazon is like, well, we built this thing in 2005 and everyone hates it, but while we certainly can't change it, now it has three customers on it. John three <laugh>. Okay. Simple DV still haunts our dreams. >>I, I actually got an email on, I saw one of my, uh, servers, all these C twos were being deprecated and I got an email. I'm like, couldn't figure out. Why can you just like roll it over? Why, why are you telling me just like, give me something else. Right. Okay. So let me talk about, uh, the other things I want to ask you is that like, okay, so as Amazon gets better, so areas where do they need more work in your opinion? Because obviously they're all interested in new stuff and they tend to like put it out there for their end to end customers. But then they've got ecosystem partners who actually have the same product. Yes. And, and this has been well documented. So it's, it's not controversial. It's just that Amazon's got a database, Snowflake's got a database service. So, you know, Redshift, snowflake 80 is out there. So you got this co-op petition. Yes. How's that going? And what are you hearing about the reaction to any of that stuff? >>Depends on who you ask. They love to basically trot out a bunch of their partners who will say nice things about them. And it very much has heirs of, let's be honest, a hostage video, but okay. Cuz these companies do partner with Amazon and they cannot afford to rock the boat too far. I'm not partnered with anyone. I can say what I want. And they're basically restricted to taking away my birthday at worse so I can live with that. >>All right. So I gotta ask about multi-cloud cause obviously the other cloud shows are coming up. Amazon hated that word. Multi-cloud um, a lot of people are saying, you know, it's not a real good marketing word. Like multi-cloud sounds like, you know, root canal. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. So is there a better description for multi-cloud >>Multiple single, which >>Davey loves that term. Yeah. >>You know, you're building in multiple single points of failure, do it for the right reasons or don't do it as a default. I believe not doing it is probably the right answer. However, and if I were, if I were Amazon, I wouldn't want to talk about multi-cloud either as industry leader, let's talk about other clouds, bad direction to go in from a market cap perspective. It doesn't end well for you, but regardless of what they want to talk about, or don't want to talk about what they say, what they don't say, I tune all of it out. And I look at what customers are doing and multi-cloud exists in a variety of forms. Some brilliant, some brain dead. It depends a lot on context. But my general response is when someone gets on stage from a company and tells me to do a thing that directly benefits their company. I am skeptical at best. Yeah. When customers get on stage and say, this is what we're doing because it solves problems. That's when I shut up and listen. >>Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Corey, I gotta ask you a question cause I know you we've been, you know, fellow journeymen in the, and the cloud journey, going to all the events and then the pandemic hit. Of course, we're now in the third year, who knows what it's gonna gonna end? Certainly events are gonna look different. They're gonna be either changing footprint with the virtual piece, new group formations. Community's gonna emerge. You've got a pretty big community growing and it's growing like crazy. What's the weirdest or coolest thing, or just big changes you've seen with the pandemic, uh, from your perspective. Cause you've been in the you're in the middle of the whitewater rafting. Seeing the event you circle offline, you saw the online piece, come in, you're commentating, you're calling balls and strikes in the industry. You got a great team developing over there. Duck bill group. What's the big aha moment that you saw with the pandemic. Weird, funny, serious, real in the industry and with customers what's >>Accessibility. Reinvent is a great example. When in the before times it's open to anyone who wants to attend, who can pony up two grand and a week in Las Vegas and get to Las Vegas and wherever they happen to be by moving virtually suddenly it, it embraces the reality that talent is evenly. Distributed. Opportunity is not. And that means that suddenly these things are accessible to a wide swath of audience and potential customer base and the rest that hadn't been invited to the table previously, it's imperative that we not lose that. It's nice to go out and talk to people and have people come up and try and smell my hair from time to time, I smell delightful. Let me assure you. But it was, but it's also nice to be. >>I have some product for you if you want, you know? Oh, >>Oh excellent. I look forward to it. What is it? Pudding? Why not? <laugh> >>What else have you seen? So when accessibility for talent, yes. Which by the way is totally home run. What weird things have happened that you've seen? Um, that's >>Uh, it's, it's weird, but it's good that an awful lot of people giving presentations have learned to tight their message and get to the damn point because most people are not gonna get up from a front row seat in a conference hall, midway through your Aing talk and go somewhere else. But they will change a browser tab and you won't get them back. You've gotta be on point. You've gotta be compelling if it's going to be a virtual discussion. Yeah. >>And also turn off your iMessage too. >>Oh yes. It's always fun in the, in the meetings when you're talking to someone and colleague is messaging them about, should we tell 'em about this? And I'm sitting there reading it and it's >>This guy is really weird. Like, >>Yes I am and I bring it into the conversation and then everyone's uncomfortable. It goes, wow. Why >>Not? I love when my wife yells at me over I message. When I'm on a business call, like, do you wanna take that about no, I'm good. >>No, no. It's better off. I don't the only encourager. It's fine. >>Kids texting you. That's fun. Again. That's another weird thing. And, and then group behavior is weird. Now people are looking at, um, communities differently. Yes. Very much so, because if you're fatigued on content, people are looking for the personal aspect. You're starting to see much more of like yeah. Another virtual event. They gotta get better. One and two who's there. >>Yeah. >>The person >>That's a big part of it too is the human stories are what are being more and more interesting. Don't get up here and tell me about your product and how brilliant you are and how you built it. That's great. If I'm you, or if I wanna work with you or I want to compete with you, or I wanna put on my engineering hat and build it myself. Cause why would I buy anything? That's more than $8. But instead, tell me about the problem. Tell me me about the painful spot that you specialize in. Yeah. Tell me a story there. >>I, I think >>That gets a glimpse in a hook and makes >>More, more, I think you nailed it. Scaling storytelling. Yes. And access to better people because they don't have to be there in person. I just did a thing. I never, we never would've done the queue. We did. Uh, Amazon stepped up in sponsors. Thank you, Amazon for sponsoring international women's day, we did 30 interviews, APAC. We did five regions and I interviewed this, these women in Asia, Pacific eight, PJ, they call for in this world. And they're amazing. I never would've done those interviews cuz I never, would've seen 'em at an event. I never would've been in Japan or Singapore, uh, to access them. And now they're in the index. They're in the network. They're collaborating on LinkedIn. So a threads are developing around connections that I've never seen before. Yes. Around the content. >>Absolutely >>Content value plus network >>Effecting. And that is the next big revelation of this industry is going to realize you have different companies. And in Amazon's case, different service teams, all competing with each other, but you have the container group and you have the database group and you have the message cuing group. But customers don't really want to build things from spare parts. They want a solution to a problem. I want to build an app that does Twitter for pets or whatever it is I'm trying to do. I don't wanna basically have to pick and choose and fill my shopping cart with all these different things. I want something that's gonna basically give me what I'm trying to get as close to turnkey as possible. Moving up the stack. That is the future. And just how it gets here is gonna be >>Well we're here with Corey Quinn, the master of the master of content here in the a ecosystem. Of course we we've been following up from the beginning. It's great guy. Check out his blog, his site, his newsletter screaming podcast. Corey, final question for you. Uh, what do you hear doing what's on your agenda this week in San Francisco and give a plug for the duck build group. What are you guys doing? I know you're hiring some people what's on the table for the company. What's your focus this week and put a plug in for the group. >>I'm here as a customer and basically getting outta my cage cuz I do live here. It's nice to actually get out and talk to folks who are doing interesting things at the duck build group. We solve one problem. We fixed the horrifying AWS bill, both from engineering and architecture, advising as well as negotiating AWS contracts because it turns out those things are big and complicated. And of course my side media projects last week in aws.com, we are it's more or less a content operation where I indulge my continual and love affair with the sound of my own voice. >><laugh> and you're good. It's good content it's on, on point fun, Starky and relevant. So thanks for coming on the cube and sharing with us. Appreciate it. No, >>Thank you. Fun. >>Okay. This cube covers here in San Francisco, California, the cube is back going to events. These are the summits, Amazon web services summits that happen all over the world. We'll be in New York and obviously we're here in San Francisco this week. I'm John fur. Keep, keep it right here. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>>from >>around the globe. It's >>the cube >>with digital >>coverage of IBM >>Think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual, I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here virtual again in real life soon is right around the corner but we got a great guest here, Cameron art managing director at A T and T for IBM. Cameron manages the A T and T global account for IBM camera. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Thank you very much, john it's great to be >>Here. Uh, can almost imagine how complicated and big and large a TNT is with respect to IBM in the history and 18 very large company. What's the relationship with I B M and A T and T over the years? How has that evolved? And what, how do you approach that role as the managing director? >>Well, it's been fascinating. Um as you said, we've got to large complex companies but also to brand names that are synonymous for innovation, whether it be in in compute or technology or communications. But the most fascinating thing is if you look back at our relationship and this is two brands that have been around for well over 100 years. Our relationship actually has some fascinating backdrop to it. My favorite is in 1924, A T and T sent a picture of thomas Watson sr over a telephone wire to IBM and thomas Watson said they sent this over the telephone. We are united in a community of interest. They want to make it easier for businesses to transact as do I. We need to work together. And since then, there has been a number of advanced advances that both of us have driven collectively and individually. And it's been a it's been a long running and treasured relationship in the IBM company. >>It's such a storied relationship on both sides. I mean, the history is just amazing. They could do a whole History Channel segment on both 18 T N I B M. Uh but together, it's kind of the better together story, as you pointed out from that example, going back to sending a picture with the phone lines, like, oh my God, that's instagram on the internet um, happening. But how are they responding to the relationship now? I'll see with cloud, um Native exploding with the ability to get more access and you're seeing a lot more things evolved, more complexity is emerging. That needs to be abstracted away. You're seeing businesses saying, hey, I can do more with less, I can connect more more access. But then that also services more potential opportunities and challenges. How are you responding with a T and T? How are they responding to that dynamic with you guys? >>Yeah, I think it's fascinating because when I originally approached this relationship and I've been doing this for 12 months now, a little over 12 months and when I originally approach it as with anything else, many times, you're trying to enter something that is quite special and make it even better. And my approach at least initially with AT and T was very much one of, we're going to provide even better service. We're going to jointly grow together in the market and strengthen each of our businesses and we're gonna work for something broader than ourselves. And I'll get into a little more of the last point later. But those first two things from an A T T response perspective, and I think this is a common perspective among many clients is we'll see if your actions follow your words. And so it's been a process. We've gone through to understand that I'm a champion for A T and T inside of IBM and those interests that we share individually and collectively will be represented at the highest levels. And we will mature this relationship into one of not just kind of supply chain partners because we're very complementary to each other, but more ecosystem partners and my belief in my core. And you see this much with many of the business strategies that are out there. The ecosystem strategy, this sum is greater than the parts, it's not a zero sum game is something that's absolutely blooming in the market. >>Yeah, that ecosystem message is one of the things that's resonating and coming clearly out of IBM think 2021 this year and in the industry is seeing the success of network effects, ecosystem changes is the constant that's happening. Certainly the pandemic and now coming out of it, people want to have a growth strategy that's gonna be relevant, current and impactful. And you you pointed that out growth with each other is interesting. And you you shared some perspective on this just recently with an example of what is underway there where you heading with that? I mean talk more about this growth with each other because that really is an ecosystem dynamic. What is underway and where are you heading? >>It's a fascinating ecosystem dynamic and it's something that we've adopted wholeheartedly within AT and T in terms of not only how we work. So there are very basic examples examples like we, rather than answering our PS and responding to uh to requirements, we're co creating with our clients, we have multiple cloud garages going with a T and T. Where we identify outcomes that we believe could be possible and then we show and allow the client to experience the outcome of that rather than a power point slides. So there's this kind of base of how do you work with each other? But then much more broadly in the market, it didn't take long for us to realize that, you know, the addressable market, if if I were selling A T and T, everything I could ever sell them and at and T was selling IBM everything they could ever sell us. The addressable market is, let's say $10 billion. But the moment at which we pointed ourselves outside to the external market, we realize that that market opportunity expands by a factor of 20 or by a factor of 50, we have the opportunity to create unique value together. And I think that kind of comes from the core of how we work together. >>I'm also intrigued by your comments about working together for a greater purpose. You said you'd address that later. What do you mean by that? I mean that's a little bit very higher purpose. Um North Star and as you mentioned, you know, working together in the ecosystem that kind of seems tactical and strategic as well. But what's this greater purpose? What does that mean? >>Well, my belief and it's something I learned actually, as I got indoctrinated into the work that 18 T does the work that IBM does and how we do it. But we share many common purposes in terms of what we believe on the whole, in terms of progress in society. So for example, equality in the workplace. We hosted a women's day lunch and actually multiple women stays lunch days luncheons across the United States, where we had hundreds of female leaders from both IBM and AT and T. Collaborating together talking about how tips and tricks for how they continue to advance in the workplace. Another example is in equality and diversity and inclusion. Both A T and T and IBM have a strong commitment and if you'll see IBM just published, just published their diversity and inclusion study where we actually demonstrate here the numbers, here's our targets, here's where we want to get 18 T has exactly that same belief. Finally, in stem education for educating our future leaders in science and technology, engineering and math. Both 18 T and IBM for our future, need those skills showing up in the marketplace and Corey Anthony is just a quick spot for any of you would think cory cory Anthony who see it diversity and development Officer at AT and T is going to give a great presentation on A. T. N. T. S work in stem for younger generations. So there are many things that are, I would say societal on a broader purpose statement that we share a belief in together, >>that's awesome people and also people want to work on a team that's mission driven, has impact beyond just the profit and loss me, I love capitalism personally myself, I'm an entrepreneur but been there done that, but we're living in a cultural shift. Now we're starting to see a remote work. You're starting to see virtual teams, new use cases that have different expectations and experiences um, in the work place and also at home. So you know, with mobile that could be on the side of the soccer fields or you know, skiing or running or jogging and take a message to pull over to a chat, jump into an audio chat, listen to a podcast, engage. So we're all tethered now, this is exchanging the experiences and this is going to change the game for how you work together. >>100%. And by the way, we're all teller tethered hopefully through a T and T mobile connectivity devices, it was kind of amusing how much that has become a part of our lives and the core value, one of the core value propositions of AT and T is obviously connecting businesses to each other, but also consumers through their mobile brand, but also then to entertainment. I will say when I was in Augusta at the Masters, you know, people that have been there know that you're not allowed to have cell phones. It was amazing just in conversations how often whoever was I was having a conversation with and myself would say, well I'd like to look that up, hold on, can I get that statistic and and we we realized we're missing a big part of our of our lives in terms of communication. But those requirements of connecting people in new ways and in their homes were remotely actually only reinforce this shared value proposition of when you have the technology and you have it securely between our company IBM and A T and T. We play a massive part in that and it's something I'm quite proud of. >>You guys have a really interesting position there with the history of with the relationship and as you pointed out, A T and T has to be in the forefront of cutting edge user experience technology bringing. I mean, they are the edge. I mean they ultimately from base station down to the device to the person to the account you're talking about a real edge there, that's a person's consumer. Um They got to provide these new services. So I gotta ask you, you mentioned at the top of this interview that your goal is to provide even better service to a T and T. A pretty big pressure point for IBM. You know, you gotta deliver step up and their expectations must be high. Can you take us through perspectives on that kind of even better service when you've got a client that's on the cutting edge of having to deliver new kinds of things like better notifications. Smarter devices, Smarter software, more fault tolerant, highly available services. These are things that, you know, there's a lot of pressure take us through that what's it like? >>There is a lot of pressure, but there's a lot of consistency in terms of expectations and it's something that both of us understand very well and I would argue that it's probably the reason we work so well together, Both 18 T and IBM for years uh namely 50 hundreds of years have understood that if we're transacting for business, were transaction transacting on something that has to get done so on both sides of the equation. Not only do we push the edge of what can be done technically or for business, but we also understand the expectations of the business clients that are, it works every time and it works in every way I needed to. So for us, when we work together, I think that healthy balance of uh part musician, part engineer uh comes out very, very strongly in both teams, >>camera great insight and great to talk to you. I love to get the perspective on, you know, the kind of challenges and opportunities that you're um seizing at IBM with A T and T. Again, the history is amazing. Um the impact of the industry at both levels you mentioned Tom Watson senior than you got Junior. That in that generation just carries forward. You got that vibe back now with hybrid cloud. Arvin loves clouds. So, you know, you got a lot of things happening and it's really strong over at IBM and the theme this year generally is better together. So awesome, awesome work. Congratulations. >>Thank you very much. I will tell you, I don't want to I don't want to miss the opportunity to talk a bit about the future because from an A T and T and IBM perspective, we're doing a load of work around private five G or five G in general. This is something that provides an absolutely low latency, huge band with with a lot of actually characteristics from a business perspective that are manageable and it will enable. What I believe is another big wave in the technology and business industry, which is new business models very similar to that of the Internet. Originally, it allows with IBM technology and 18 T technology, they have something called multi access. Such compute these are absolutely blazing fast. Five G boxes that will be in not only businesses but universities, sports stadiums, you name that, you name it, changing the experience of how people consume technology or the benefits of technology, which I couldn't be more excited about >>awesome future ahead. Great. There's a big wave certainly away we've never seen before. Cameron, art managing Director at A T and T at IBM. Great insight. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks john >>Okay, Cube coverage of IBM think 2021. I'm John Ferrier. Thanks for watching. Mm. Mhm. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle, everybody to Cuban cloud. My name is Dave Volonte, and I'll be here throughout the day with my co host, John Ferrier, who was quarantined in an undisclosed location in California. He's all good. Don't worry. Just precautionary. John, how are you doing? >>Hey, great to see you. John. Quarantine. My youngest daughter had covitz, so contact tracing. I was negative in quarantine at a friend's location. All good. >>Well, we wish you the best. Yeah, well, right. I mean, you know what's it like, John? I mean, you're away from your family. Your basically shut in, right? I mean, you go out for a walk, but you're really not in any contact with anybody. >>Correct? Yeah. I mean, basically just isolation, Um, pretty much what everyone's been kind of living on, kind of suffering through, but hopefully the vaccines are being distributed. You know, one of the things we talked about it reinvent the Amazon's cloud conference. Was the vaccine on, but just the whole workflow around that it's gonna get better. It's kind of really sucky. Here in the California area, they haven't done a good job, a lot of criticism around, how that's rolling out. And, you know, Amazon is now offering to help now that there's a new regime in the U. S. Government S o. You know, something to talk about, But certainly this has been a terrible time for Cove it and everyone in the deaths involved. But it's it's essentially pulled back the covers, if you will, on technology and you're seeing everything. Society. In fact, um, well, that's big tech MIT disinformation campaigns. All these vulnerabilities and cyber, um, accelerated digital transformation. We'll talk about a lot today, but yeah, it's totally changed the world. And I think we're in a new generation. I think this is a real inflection point, Dave. You know, modern society and the geo political impact of this is significant. You know, one of the benefits of being quarantined you'd be hanging out on these clubhouse APS, uh, late at night, listening to experts talk about what's going on, and it's interesting what's happening with with things like water and, you know, the island of Taiwan and China and U. S. Sovereignty, data, sovereignty, misinformation. So much going on to talk about. And, uh, meanwhile, companies like Mark injuries in BC firm starting a media company. What's going on? Hell freezing over. So >>we're gonna be talking about a lot of that stuff today. I mean, Cuba on cloud. It's our very first virtual editorial event we're trying to do is bring together our community. It's a it's an open forum and we're we're running the day on our 3 65 software platform. So we got a great lineup. We got CEO Seo's data Practitioners. We got a hard core technologies coming in, cloud experts, investors. We got some analysts coming in and we're creating this day long Siri's. And we've got a number of sessions that we've developed and we're gonna unpack. The future of Cloud computing in the coming decade is, John said, we're gonna talk about some of the public policy new administration. What does that mean for tech and for big tech in General? John, what can you add to that? >>Well, I think one of the things that we talked about Cove in this personal impact to me but other people as well. One of the things that people are craving right now is information factual information, truth texture that we call it. But hear this event for us, Davis, our first inaugural editorial event. Robbo, Kristen, Nicole, the entire Cube team Silicon angle, really trying to put together Morva cadence we're gonna doom or of these events where we can put out feature the best people in our community that have great fresh voices. You know, we do interview the big names Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, the billionaires with people making things happen. But it's often the people under there that are the rial newsmakers amid savory, for instance, that Google one of the most impressive technical people, he's gotta talk. He's gonna present democratization of software development in many Mawr riel people making things happen. And I think there's a communal element. We're going to do more of these. Obviously, we have, uh, no events to go to with the Cube. So we have the cube virtual software that we have been building and over years and now perfecting and we're gonna introduce that we're gonna put it to work, their dog footing it. We're gonna put that software toe work. We're gonna do a lot mawr virtual events like this Cuban cloud Cuban startup Cuban raising money. Cuban healthcare, Cuban venture capital. Always think we could do anything. Question is, what's the right story? What's the most important stories? Who's telling it and increase the aperture of the lens of the industry that we have and and expose that and fastest possible. That's what this software, you'll see more of it. So it's super exciting. We're gonna add new features like pulling people up on stage, Um, kind of bring on the clubhouse vibe and more of a community interaction with people to meet each other, and we'll roll those out. But the goal here is to just showcase it's cloud story in a way from people that are living it and providing value. So enjoy the day is gonna be chock full of presentations. We're gonna have moderated chat in these sessions, so it's an all day event so people can come in, drop out, and also that's everything's on demand immediately after the time slot. But you >>want to >>participate, come into the time slot into the cube room or breakout session. Whatever you wanna call it, it's a cube room, and the people in there chatting and having a watch party. So >>when you're in that home page when you're watching, there's a hero video there. Beneath that, there's a calendar, and you'll see that red line is that red horizontal line of vertical line is rather, it's a linear clock that will show you where we are in the day. If you click on any one of those sessions that will take you into the chat, we'll take you through those in a moment and share with you some of the guests that we have upcoming and and take you through the day what I wanted to do. John is trying to set the stage for the conversations that folks are gonna here today. And to do that, I wanna ask the guys to bring up a graphic. And I want to talk to you, John, about the progression of cloud over time and maybe go back to the beginning and review the evolution of cloud and then really talk a little bit about where we think it Z headed. So, guys, if you bring up that graphic when a W S announced s three, it was March of 2000 and six. And as you recall, John you know, nobody really. In the vendor and user community. They didn't really pay too much attention to that. And then later that year, in August, it announced E C two people really started. They started to think about a new model of computing, but they were largely, you know, chicken tires. And it was kind of bleeding edge developers that really leaned in. Um what? What were you thinking at the time? When when you saw, uh, s three e c to this retail company coming into the tech world? >>I mean, I thought it was totally crap. I'm like, this is terrible. But then at that time, I was thinking working on I was in between kind of start ups and I didn't have a lot of seed funding. And then I realized the C two was freaking awesome. But I'm like, Holy shit, this is really great because I don't need to pay a lot of cash, the Provisional Data center, or get a server. Or, you know, at that time, state of the art startup move was to buy a super micro box or some sort of power server. Um, it was well past the whole proprietary thing. But you have to assemble probably anyone with 5 to 8 grand box and go in, and we'll put a couple ghetto rack, which is basically, uh, you know, you put it into some coasting location. It's like with everybody else in the tech ghetto of hosting, still paying monthly fees and then maintaining it and provisioning that's just to get started. And then Amazon was just really easy. And then from there you just It was just awesome. I just knew Amazon would be great. They had a lot of things that they had to fix. You know, custom domains and user interface Council got better and better, but it was awesome. >>Well, what we really saw the cloud take hold from my perspective anyway, was the financial crisis in, you know, 709 It put cloud on the radar of a number of CFOs and, of course, shadow I T departments. They wanted to get stuff done and and take I t in in in, ah, pecs, bite sized chunks. So it really was. There's cloud awakening and we came out of that financial crisis, and this we're now in this 10 year plus boom um, you know, notwithstanding obviously the economic crisis with cove it. But much of it was powered by the cloud in the decade. I would say it was really about I t transformation. And it kind of ironic, if you will, because the pandemic it hits at the beginning of this decade, >>and it >>creates this mandate to go digital. So you've you've said a lot. John has pulled forward. It's accelerated this industry transformation. Everybody talks about that, but and we've highlighted it here in this graphic. It probably would have taken several more years to mature. But overnight you had this forced march to digital. And if you weren't a digital business, you were kind of out of business. And and so it's sort of here to stay. How do you see >>You >>know what this evolution and what we can expect in the coming decades? E think it's safe to say the last 10 years defined by you know, I t transformation. That's not gonna be the same in the coming years. How do you see it? >>It's interesting. I think the big tech companies are on, but I think this past election, the United States shows um, the power that technology has. And if you look at some of the main trends in the enterprise specifically around what clouds accelerating, I call the second wave of innovations coming where, um, it's different. It's not what people expect. Its edge edge computing, for instance, has talked about a lot. But industrial i o t. Is really where we've had a lot of problems lately in terms of hacks and malware and just just overall vulnerabilities, whether it's supply chain vulnerabilities, toe actual disinformation, you know, you know, vulnerabilities inside these networks s I think this network effects, it's gonna be a huge thing. I think the impact that tech will have on society and global society geopolitical things gonna be also another one. Um, I think the modern application development of how applications were written with data, you know, we always been saying this day from the beginning of the Cube data is his integral part of the development process. And I think more than ever, when you think about cloud and edge and this distributed computing paradigm, that cloud is now going next level with is the software and how it's written will be different. You gotta handle things like, where's the compute component? Is it gonna be at the edge with all the server chips, innovations that Amazon apple intel of doing, you're gonna have compute right at the edge, industrial and kind of human edge. How does that work? What's Leighton see to that? It's it really is an edge game. So to me, software has to be written holistically in a system's impact on the way. Now that's not necessarily nude in the computer science and in the tech field, it's just gonna be deployed differently. So that's a complete rewrite, in my opinion of the software applications. Which is why you're seeing Amazon Google VM Ware really pushing Cooper Netease and these service messes in the micro Services because super critical of this technology become smarter, automated, autonomous. And that's completely different paradigm in the old full stack developer, you know, kind of model. You know, the full stack developer, his ancient. There's no such thing as a full stack developer anymore, in my opinion, because it's a half a stack because the cloud takes up the other half. But no one wants to be called the half stack developer because it doesn't sound as good as Full Stack, but really Cloud has eliminated the technology complexity of what a full stack developer used to dio. Now you can manage it and do things with it, so you know, there's some work to done, but the heavy lifting but taking care of it's the top of the stack that I think is gonna be a really critical component. >>Yeah, and that that sort of automation and machine intelligence layer is really at the top of the stack. This this thing becomes ubiquitous, and we now start to build businesses and new processes on top of it. I wanna I wanna take a look at the Big Three and guys, Can we bring up the other The next graphic, which is an estimate of what the revenue looks like for the for the Big three. And John, this is I asked and past spend for the Big Three Cloud players. And it's It's an estimate that we're gonna update after earning seasons, and I wanna point a couple things out here. First is if you look at the combined revenue production of the Big Three last year, it's almost 80 billion in infrastructure spend. I mean, think about that. That Z was that incremental spend? No. It really has caused a lot of consolidation in the on Prem data center business for guys like Dell. And, you know, um, see, now, part of the LHP split up IBM Oracle. I mean, it's etcetera. They've all felt this sea change, and they had to respond to it. I think the second thing is you can see on this data. Um, it's true that azure and G C P they seem to be growing faster than a W s. We don't know the exact numbers >>because >>A W S is the only company that really provides a clean view of i s and pass. Whereas Microsoft and Google, they kind of hide the ball in their numbers. I mean, I don't blame them because they're behind, but they do leave breadcrumbs and clues about growth rates and so forth. And so we have other means of estimating, but it's it's undeniable that azure is catching up. I mean, it's still quite distance the third thing, and before I want to get your input here, John is this is nuanced. But despite the fact that Azure and Google the growing faster than a W s. You can see those growth rates. A W s I'll call this out is the only company by our estimates that grew its business sequentially last quarter. Now, in and of itself, that's not significant. But what is significant is because AWS is so large there $45 billion last year, even if the slower growth rates it's able to grow mawr and absolute terms than its competitors, who are basically flat to down sequentially by our estimates. Eso So that's something that I think is important to point out. Everybody focuses on the growth rates, but it's you gotta look at also the absolute dollars and, well, nonetheless, Microsoft in particular, they're they're closing the gap steadily, and and we should talk more about the competitive dynamics. But I'd love to get your take on on all this, John. >>Well, I mean, the clouds are gonna win right now. Big time with the one the political climate is gonna be favoring Big check. But more importantly, with just talking about covert impact and celebrating the digital transformation is gonna create a massive rising tide. It's already happening. It's happening it's happening. And again, this shift in programming, uh, models are gonna really kinda accelerating, create new great growth. So there's no doubt in my mind of all three you're gonna win big, uh, in the future, they're just different, You know, the way they're going to market position themselves, they have to be. Google has to be a little bit different than Amazon because they're smaller and they also have different capabilities, then trying to catch up. So if you're Google or Microsoft, you have to have a competitive strategy to decide. How do I wanna ride the tide If you will put the rising tide? Well, if I'm Amazon, I mean, if I'm Microsoft and Google, I'm not going to try to go frontal and try to copy Amazon because Amazon is just pounding lead of features and scale and they're different. They were, I would say, take advantage of the first mover of pure public cloud. They really awesome. It passed and I, as they've integrated in Gardner, now reports and integrated I as and passed components. So Gardner finally got their act together and said, Hey, this is really one thing. SAS is completely different animal now Microsoft Super Smart because they I think they played the right card. They have a huge installed base converted to keep office 3 65 and move sequel server and all their core jewels into the cloud as fast as possible, clarified while filling in the gaps on the product side to be cloud. So you know, as you're doing trends job, they're just it's just pedal as fast as you can. But Microsoft is really in. The strategy is just go faster trying. Keep pedaling fast, get the features, feature velocity and try to make it high quality. Google is a little bit different. They have a little power base in terms of their network of strong, and they have a lot of other big data capabilities, so they have to use those to their advantage. So there is. There is there is competitive strategy game application happening with these companies. It's not like apples, the apples, In my opinion, it never has been, and I think that's funny that people talk about it that way. >>Well, you're bringing up some great points. I want guys bring up the next graphic because a lot of things that John just said are really relevant here. And what we're showing is that's a survey. Data from E. T. R R Data partners, like 1400 plus CEOs and I T buyers and on the vertical axis is this thing called Net score, which is a measure of spending momentum. And the horizontal axis is is what's called market share. It's a measure of the pervasiveness or, you know, number of mentions in the data set. There's a couple of key points I wanna I wanna pick up on relative to what John just said. So you see A W S and Microsoft? They stand alone. I mean, they're the hyper scale er's. They're far ahead of the pack and frankly, they have fall down, toe, lose their lead. They spend a lot on Capex. They got the flywheel effects going. They got both spending velocity and large market shares, and so, but they're taking a different approach. John, you're right there living off of their SAS, the state, their software state, Andi, they're they're building that in to their cloud. So they got their sort of a captive base of Microsoft customers. So they've got that advantage. They also as we'll hear from from Microsoft today. They they're building mawr abstraction layers. Andy Jassy has said We don't wanna be in that abstraction layer business. We wanna have access to those, you know, fine grain primitives and eso at an AP level. So so we can move fast with the market. But but But so those air sort of different philosophies, John? >>Yeah. I mean, you know, people who know me know that I love Amazon. I think their product is superior at many levels on in its way that that has advantages again. They have a great sass and ecosystem. They don't really have their own SAS play, although they're trying to add some stuff on. I've been kind of critical of Microsoft in the past, but one thing I'm not critical of Microsoft, and people can get this wrong in the marketplace. Actually, in the journalism world and also in just some other analysts, Microsoft has always had large scale eso to say that Microsoft never had scale on that Amazon owned the monopoly on our franchise on scales wrong. Microsoft had scale from day one. Their business was always large scale global. They've always had infrastructure with MSN and their search and the distributive how they distribute browsers and multiple countries. Remember they had the lock on the operating system and the browser for until the government stepped in in 1997. And since 1997 Microsoft never ever not invested in infrastructure and scale. So that whole premise that they don't compete well there is wrong. And I think that chart demonstrates that there, in there in the hyper scale leadership category, hands down the question that I have. Is that there not as good and making that scale integrate in because they have that legacy cards. This is the classic innovator's dilemma. Clay Christensen, right? So I think they're doing a good job. I think their strategy sound. They're moving as fast as they can. But then you know they're not gonna come out and say We don't have the best cloud. Um, that's not a marketing strategy. Have to kind of hide in this and get better and then double down on where they're winning, which is. Clients are converting from their legacy at the speed of Microsoft, and they have a huge client base, So that's why they're stopping so high That's why they're so good. >>Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a little preview. I talked to gear up your f Who's gonna come on today and you'll see I I asked him because the criticism of Microsoft is they're, you know, they're just good enough. And so I asked him, Are you better than good enough? You know, those are fighting words if you're inside of Microsoft, but so you'll you'll have to wait to see his answer. Now, if you guys, if you could bring that that graphic back up I wanted to get into the hybrid zone. You know where the field is. Always got >>some questions coming in on chat, Dave. So we'll get to those >>great Awesome. So just just real quick Here you see this hybrid zone, this the field is bunched up, and the other companies who have a large on Prem presence and have been forced to initiate some kind of coherent cloud strategy included. There is Michael Michael, multi Cloud, and Google's there, too, because they're far behind and they got to take a different approach than a W s. But as you can see, so there's some real progress here. VM ware cloud on AWS stands out, as does red hat open shift. You got VM Ware Cloud, which is a VCF Cloud Foundation, even Dell's cloud. And you'd expect HP with Green Lake to be picking up momentum in the future quarters. And you've got IBM and Oracle, which there you go with the innovator's dilemma. But there, at least in the cloud game, and we can talk about that. But so, John, you know, to your point, you've gotta have different strategies. You're you're not going to take out the big too. So you gotta play, connect your print your on Prem to your cloud, your hybrid multi cloud and try to create new opportunities and new value there. >>Yeah, I mean, I think we'll get to the question, but just that point. I think this Zeri Chen's come on the Cube many times. We're trying to get him to come on lunch today with Features startup, but he's always said on the Q B is a V C at Greylock great firm. Jerry's Cloud genius. He's been there, but he made a point many, many years ago. It's not a winner. Take all the winner. Take most, and the Big Three maybe put four or five in there. We'll take most of the markets here. But I think one of the things that people are missing and aren't talking about Dave is that there's going to be a second tier cloud, large scale model. I don't want to say tear to cloud. It's coming to sound like a sub sub cloud, but a new category of cloud on cloud, right? So meaning if you get a snowflake, did I think this is a tale? Sign to what's coming. VM Ware Cloud is a native has had huge success, mainly because Amazon is essentially enabling them to be successful. So I think is going to be a wave of a more of a channel model of indirect cloud build out where companies like the Cube, potentially for media or others, will build clouds on top of the cloud. So if Google, Microsoft and Amazon, whoever is the first one to really enable that okay, we'll do extremely well because that means you can compete with their scale and create differentiation on top. So what snowflake did is all on Amazon now. They kind of should go to azure because it's, you know, politically correct that have multiple clouds and distribution and business model shifts. But to get that kind of performance they just wrote on Amazon. So there's nothing wrong with that. Because you're getting paid is variable. It's cap ex op X nice categorization. So I think that's the way that we're watching. I think it's super valuable, I think will create some surprises in terms of who might come out of the woodwork on be a leader in a category. Well, >>your timing is perfect, John and we do have some questions in the chat. But before we get to that, I want to bring in Sargi Joe Hall, who's a contributor to to our community. Sargi. Can you hear us? All right, so we got, uh, while >>bringing in Sarpy. Let's go down from the questions. So the first question, Um, we'll still we'll get the student second. The first question. But Ronald ask, Can a vendor in 2021 exist without a hybrid cloud story? Well, story and capabilities. Yes, they could live with. They have to have a story. >>Well, And if they don't own a public cloud? No. No, they absolutely cannot. Uh hey, Sergey. How you doing, man? Good to see you. So, folks, let me let me bring in Sergeant Kohala. He's a He's a cloud architect. He's a practitioner, He's worked in as a technologist. And there's a frequent guest on on the Cube. Good to see you, my friend. Thanks for taking the time with us. >>And good to see you guys to >>us. So we were kind of riffing on the competitive landscape we got. We got so much to talk about this, like, it's a number of questions coming in. Um, but Sargi we wanna talk about you know, what's happening here in Cloud Land? Let's get right into it. I mean, what do you guys see? I mean, we got yesterday. New regime, new inaug inauguration. Do you do you expect public policy? You'll start with you Sargi to have What kind of effect do you think public policy will have on, you know, cloud generally specifically, the big tech companies, the tech lash. Is it gonna be more of the same? Or do you see a big difference coming? >>I think that there will be some changing narrative. I believe on that. is mainly, um, from the regulators side. A lot has happened in one month, right? So people, I think are losing faith in high tech in a certain way. I mean, it doesn't, uh, e think it matters with camp. You belong to left or right kind of thing. Right? But parlor getting booted out from Italy s. I think that was huge. Um, like, how do you know that if a cloud provider will not boot you out? Um, like, what is that line where you draw the line? What are the rules? I think that discussion has to take place. Another thing which has happened in the last 23 months is is the solar winds hack, right? So not us not sort acknowledging that I was Russia and then wish you watching it now, new administration might have a different sort of Boston on that. I think that's huge. I think public public private partnership in security arena will emerge this year. We have to address that. Yeah, I think it's not changing. Uh, >>economics economy >>will change gradually. You know, we're coming out off pandemic. The money is still cheap on debt will not be cheap. for long. I think m and a activity really will pick up. So those are my sort of high level, Uh, >>thank you. I wanna come back to them. And because there's a question that chat about him in a But, John, how do you see it? Do you think Amazon and Google on a slippery slope booting parlor off? I mean, how do they adjudicate between? Well, what's happening in parlor? Uh, anything could happen on clubhouse. Who knows? I mean, can you use a I to find that stuff? >>Well, that's I mean, the Amazons, right? Hiding right there bunkered in right now from that bad, bad situation. Because again, like people we said Amazon, these all three cloud players win in the current environment. Okay, Who wins with the U. S. With the way we are China, Russia, cloud players. Okay, let's face it, that's the reality. So if I wanted to reset the world stage, you know what better way than the, you know, change over the United States economy, put people out of work, make people scared, and then reset the entire global landscape and control all with cash? That's, you know, conspiracy theory. >>So you see the riches, you see the riches, get the rich, get richer. >>Yeah, well, that's well, that's that. That's kind of what's happening, right? So if you start getting into this idea that you can't actually have an app on site because the reason now I'm not gonna I don't know the particular parlor, but apparently there was a reason. But this is dangerous, right? So what? What that's gonna do is and whether it's right or wrong or not, whether political opinion is it means that they were essentially taken offline by people that weren't voted for that. Weren't that when people didn't vote for So that's not a democracy, right? So that's that's a different kind of regime. What it's also going to do is you also have this groundswell of decentralized thinking, right. So you have a whole wave of crypto and decentralized, um, cyber punks out there who want to decentralize it. So all of this stuff in January has created a huge counterculture, and I had predicted this so many times in the Cube. David counterculture is coming and and you already have this kind of counterculture between centralized and decentralized thinking and so I think the Amazon's move is dangerous at a fundamental level. Because if you can't get it, if you can't get buy domain names and you're completely blackballed by by organized players, that's a Mafia, in my opinion. So, uh, and that and it's also fuels the decentralized move because people say, Hey, if that could be done to them, it could be done to me. Just the fact that it could be done will promote a swing in the other direction. I >>mean, independent of of, you know, again, somebody said your political views. I mean Parlor would say, Hey, we're trying to clean this stuff up now. Maybe they didn't do it fast enough, but you think about how new parlor is. You think about the early days of Twitter and Facebook, so they were sort of at a disadvantage. Trying to >>have it was it was partly was what it was. It was a right wing stand up job of standing up something quick. Their security was terrible. If you look at me and Cory Quinn on be great to have him, and he did a great analysis on this, because if you look the lawsuit was just terrible. Security was just a half, asshole. >>Well, and the experience was horrible. I mean, it's not It was not a great app, but But, like you said, it was a quick stew. Hand up, you know, for an agenda. But nonetheless, you know, to start, get to your point earlier. It's like, you know, Are they gonna, you know, shut me down? If I say something that's, you know, out of line, or how do I control that? >>Yeah, I remember, like, 2019, we involved closing sort of remarks. I was there. I was saying that these companies are gonna be too big to fail. And also, they're too big for other nations to do business with. In a way, I think MNCs are running the show worldwide. They're running the government's. They are way. Have seen the proof of that in us this year. Late last year and this year, um, Twitter last night blocked Chinese Ambassador E in us. Um, from there, you know, platform last night and I was like, What? What's going on? So, like, we used to we used to say, like the Chinese company, tech companies are in bed with the Chinese government. Right. Remember that? And now and now, Actually, I think Chinese people can say the same thing about us companies. Uh, it's not a good thing. >>Well, let's >>get some question. >>Let's get some questions from the chat. Yeah. Thank you. One is on M and a subject you mentioned them in a Who do you see is possible emanate targets. I mean, I could throw a couple out there. Um, you know, some of the cdn players, maybe aka my You know, I like I like Hashi Corp. I think they're doing some really interesting things. What do you see? >>Nothing. Hashi Corp. And anybody who's doing things in the periphery is a candidate for many by the big guys, you know, by the hyper scholars and number two tier two or five hyper scholars. Right. Uh, that's why sales forces of the world and stuff like that. Um, some some companies, which I thought there will be a target, Sort of. I mean, they target they're getting too big, because off their evaluations, I think how she Corpuz one, um, >>and >>their bunch in the networking space. Uh, well, Tara, if I say the right that was acquired by at five this week, this week or last week, Actually, last week for $500 million. Um, I know they're founder. So, like I found that, Yeah, there's a lot going on on the on the network side on the anything to do with data. Uh, that those air too hard areas in the cloud arena >>data, data protection, John, any any anything you could adhere. >>And I think I mean, I think ej ej is gonna be where the gaps are. And I think m and a activity is gonna be where again, the bigger too big to fail would agree with you on that one. But we're gonna look at white Spaces and say a white space for Amazon is like a monster space for a start up. Right? So you're gonna have these huge white spaces opportunities, and I think it's gonna be an M and a opportunity big time start ups to get bought in. Given the speed on, I think you're gonna see it around databases and around some of these new service meshes and micro services. I mean, >>they there's a There's a question here, somebody's that dons asking why is Google who has the most pervasive tech infrastructure on the planet. Not at the same level of other to hyper scale is I'll give you my two cents is because it took him a long time to get their heads out of their ads. I wrote a piece of around that a while ago on they just they figured out how to learn the enterprise. I mean, John, you've made this point a number of times, but they just and I got a late start. >>Yeah, they're adding a lot of people. If you look at their who their hiring on the Google Cloud, they're adding a lot of enterprise chops in there. They realized this years ago, and we've talked to many of the top leaders, although Curry and hasn't yet sit down with us. Um, don't know what he's hiding or waiting for, but they're clearly not geared up to chicken Pete. You can see it with some some of the things that they're doing, but I mean competed the level of Amazon, but they have strength and they're playing their strength, but they definitely recognize that they didn't have the enterprise motions and people in the DNA and that David takes time people in the enterprise. It's not for the faint of heart. It's unique details that are different. You can't just, you know, swing the Google playbook and saying We're gonna home The enterprises are text grade. They knew that years ago. So I think you're going to see a good year for Google. I think you'll see a lot of change. Um, they got great people in there. On the product marketing side is Dev Solution Architects, and then the SRE model that they have perfected has been strong. And I think security is an area that they could really had a lot of value it. So, um always been a big fan of their huge network and all the intelligence they have that they could bring to bear on security. >>Yeah, I think Google's problem main problem that to actually there many, but one is that they don't They don't have the boots on the ground as compared to um, Microsoft, especially an Amazon actually had a similar problem, but they had a wide breath off their product portfolio. I always talk about feature proximity in cloud context, like if you're doing one thing. You wanna do another thing? And how do you go get that feature? Do you go to another cloud writer or it's right there where you are. So I think Amazon has the feature proximity and they also have, uh, aske Compared to Google, there's skills gravity. Larger people are trained on AWS. I think Google is trying there. So second problem Google is having is that that they're they're more focused on, I believe, um, on the data science part on their sort of skipping the cool components sort of off the cloud, if you will. The where the workloads needs, you know, basic stuff, right? That's like your compute storage and network. And that has to be well, talk through e think e think they will do good. >>Well, so later today, Paul Dillon sits down with Mids Avery of Google used to be in Oracle. He's with Google now, and he's gonna push him on on the numbers. You know, you're a distant third. Does that matter? And of course, you know, you're just a preview of it's gonna say, Well, no, we don't really pay attention to that stuff. But, John, you said something earlier that. I think Jerry Chen made this comment that, you know, Is it a winner? Take all? No, but it's a winner. Take a lot. You know the number two is going to get a big chunk of the pie. It appears that the markets big enough for three. But do you? Does Google have to really dramatically close the gap on be a much, much closer, you know, to the to the leaders in orderto to compete in this race? Or can they just kind of continue to bump along, siphon off the ad revenue? Put it out there? I mean, I >>definitely can compete. I think that's like Google's in it. Then it they're not. They're not caving, right? >>So But But I wrote I wrote recently that I thought they should even even put mawr oven emphasis on the cloud. I mean, maybe maybe they're already, you know, doubling down triple down. I just I think that is a multi trillion dollar, you know, future for the industry. And, you know, I think Google, believe it or not, could even do more. Now. Maybe there's just so much you could dio. >>There's a lot of challenges with these company, especially Google. They're in Silicon Valley. We have a big Social Justice warrior mentality. Um, there's a big debate going on the in the back channels of the tech scene here, and that is that if you want to be successful in cloud, you have to have a good edge strategy, and that involves surveillance, use of data and pushing the privacy limits. Right? So you know, Google has people within the country that will protest contract because AI is being used for war. Yet we have the most unstable geopolitical seen that I've ever witnessed in my lifetime going on right now. So, um, don't >>you think that's what happened with parlor? I mean, Rob Hope said, Hey, bar is pretty high to kick somebody off your platform. The parlor went over the line, but I would also think that a lot of the employees, whether it's Google AWS as well, said, Hey, why are we supporting you know this and so to your point about social justice, I mean, that's not something. That >>parlor was not just social justice. They were trying to throw the government. That's Rob e. I think they were in there to get selfies and being protesters. But apparently there was evidence from what I heard in some of these clubhouse, uh, private chats. Waas. There was overwhelming evidence on parlor. >>Yeah, but my point is that the employee backlash was also a factor. That's that's all I'm saying. >>Well, we have Google is your Google and you have employees to say we will boycott and walk out if you bid on that jet I contract for instance, right, But Microsoft one from maybe >>so. I mean, that's well, >>I think I think Tom Poole's making a really good point here, which is a Google is an alternative. Thio aws. The last Google cloud next that we were asked at they had is all virtual issue. But I saw a lot of I T practitioners in the audience looking around for an alternative to a W s just seeing, though, we could talk about Mano Cloud or Multi Cloud, and Andy Jassy has his his narrative around, and he's true when somebody goes multiple clouds, they put you know most of their eggs in one basket. Nonetheless, I think you know, Google's got a lot of people interested in, particularly in the analytic side, um, in in an alternative, hedging their bets eso and particularly use cases, so they should be able to do so. I guess my the bottom line here is the markets big enough to have Really? You don't have to be the Jack Welch. I gotta be number one and number two in the market. Is that the conclusion here? >>I think so. But the data gravity and the skills gravity are playing against them. Another problem, which I didn't want a couple of earlier was Google Eyes is that they have to boot out AWS wherever they go. Right? That is a huge challenge. Um, most off the most off the Fortune 2000 companies are already using AWS in one way or another. Right? So they are the multi cloud kind of player. Another one, you know, and just pure purely somebody going 200% Google Cloud. Uh, those cases are kind of pure, if you will. >>I think it's gonna be absolutely multi cloud. I think it's gonna be a time where you looked at the marketplace and you're gonna think in terms of disaster recovery, model of cloud or just fault tolerant capabilities or, you know, look at the parlor, the next parlor. Or what if Amazon wakes up one day and said, Hey, I don't like the cubes commentary on their virtual events, so shut them down. We should have a fail over to Google Cloud should Microsoft and Option. And one of people in Microsoft ecosystem wants to buy services from us. We have toe kind of co locate there. So these are all open questions that are gonna be the that will become certain pretty quickly, which is, you know, can a company diversify their computing An i t. In a way that works. And I think the momentum around Cooper Netease you're seeing as a great connective tissue between, you know, having applications work between clouds. Right? Well, directionally correct, in my opinion, because if I'm a company, why wouldn't I wanna have choice? So >>let's talk about this. The data is mixed on that. I'll share some data, meaty our data with you. About half the companies will say Yeah, we're spreading the wealth around to multiple clouds. Okay, That's one thing will come back to that. About the other half were saying, Yeah, we're predominantly mono cloud we didn't have. The resource is. But what I think going forward is that that what multi cloud really becomes. And I think John, you mentioned Snowflake before. I think that's an indicator of what what true multi cloud is going to look like. And what Snowflake is doing is they're building abstraction, layer across clouds. Ed Walsh would say, I'm standing on the shoulders of Giants, so they're basically following points of presence around the globe and building their own cloud. They call it a data cloud with a global mesh. We'll hear more about that later today, but you sign on to that cloud. So they're saying, Hey, we're gonna build value because so many of Amazon's not gonna build that abstraction layer across multi clouds, at least not in the near term. So that's a really opportunity for >>people. I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm dating myself, but you know the date ourselves, David. I remember back in the eighties, when you had open systems movement, right? The part of the whole Revolution OS I open systems interconnect model. At that time, the networking stacks for S N A. For IBM, decadent for deck we all know that was a proprietary stack and then incomes TCP I p Now os I never really happened on all seven layers, but the bottom layers standardized. Okay, that was huge. So I think if you look at a W s or some of the comments in the chat AWS is could be the s n a. Depends how you're looking at it, right? And you could say they're open. But in a way, they want more Amazon. So Amazon's not out there saying we love multi cloud. Why would they promote multi cloud? They are a one of the clouds they want. >>That's interesting, John. And then subject is a cloud architect. I mean, it's it is not trivial to make You're a data cloud. If you're snowflake, work on AWS work on Google. Work on Azure. Be seamless. I mean, certainly the marketing says that, but technically, that's not trivial. You know, there are latent see issues. Uh, you know, So that's gonna take a while to develop. What? Do your thoughts there? >>I think that multi cloud for for same workload and multi cloud for different workloads are two different things. Like we usually put multiple er in one bucket, right? So I think you're right. If you're trying to do multi cloud for the same workload, that's it. That's Ah, complex, uh, problem to solve architecturally, right. You have to have a common ap ice and common, you know, control playing, if you will. And we don't have that yet, and then we will not have that for a for at least one other couple of years. So, uh, if you if you want to do that, then you have to go to the lower, lowest common denominator in technical sort of stock, if you will. And then you're not leveraging the best of the breed technology off their from different vendors, right? I believe that's a hard problem to solve. And in another thing, is that that that I always say this? I'm always on the death side, you know, developer side, I think, uh, two deaths. Public cloud is a proxy for innovative culture. Right. So there's a catch phrase I have come up with today during shower eso. I think that is true. And then people who are companies who use the best of the breed technologies, they can attract the these developers and developers are the Mazen's off This digital sort of empires, amazingly, is happening there. Right there they are the Mazen's right. They head on the bricks. I think if you don't appeal to developers, if you don't but extensive for, like, force behind educating the market, you can't you can't >>put off. It's the same game Stepping story was seeing some check comments. Uh, guard. She's, uh, linked in friend of mine. She said, Microsoft, If you go back and look at the Microsoft early days to the developer Point they were, they made their phones with developers. They were a software company s Oh, hey, >>forget developers, developers, developers. >>You were if you were in the developer ecosystem, you were treated his gold. You were part of the family. If you were outside that world, you were competitors, and that was ruthless times back then. But they again they had. That was where it was today. Look at where the software defined businesses and starve it, saying it's all about being developer lead in this new way to program, right? So the cloud next Gen Cloud is going to look a lot like next Gen Developer and all the different tools and techniques they're gonna change. So I think, yes, this kind of developer ecosystem will be harnessed, and that's the power source. It's just gonna look different. So, >>Justin, Justin in the chat has a comment. I just want to answer the question about elastic thoughts on elastic. Um, I tell you, elastic has momentum uh, doing doing very well in the market place. Thea Elk Stack is a great alternative that people are looking thio relative to Splunk. Who people complain about the pricing. Of course it's plunks got the easy button, but it is getting increasingly expensive. The problem with elk stack is you know, it's open source. It gets complicated. You got a shard, the databases you gotta manage. It s Oh, that's what Ed Walsh's company chaos searches is all about. But elastic has some riel mo mentum in the marketplace right now. >>Yeah, you know, other things that coming on the chat understands what I was saying about the open systems is kubernetes. I always felt was that is a bad metaphor. But they're with me. That was the TCP I peep In this modern era, C t c p I p created that that the disruptor to the S N A s and the network protocols that were proprietary. So what KUBERNETES is doing is creating a connective tissue between clouds and letting the open source community fill in the gaps in the middle, where kind of way kind of probably a bad analogy. But that's where the disruption is. And if you look at what's happened since Kubernetes was put out there, what it's become kind of de facto and standard in the sense that everyone's rallying around it. Same exact thing happened with TCP was people were trashing it. It is terrible, you know it's not. Of course they were trashed because it was open. So I find that to be very interesting. >>Yeah, that's a good >>analogy. E. Thinks the R C a cable. I used the R C. A cable analogy like the VCRs. When they started, they, every VC had had their own cable, and they will work on Lee with that sort of plan of TV and the R C. A cable came and then now you can put any TV with any VCR, and the VCR industry took off. There's so many examples out there around, uh, standards And how standards can, you know, flair that fire, if you will, on dio for an industry to go sort of wild. And another trend guys I'm seeing is that from the consumer side. And let's talk a little bit on the consuming side. Um, is that the The difference wouldn't be to B and B to C is blood blurred because even the physical products are connected to the end user Like my door lock, the August door lock I didn't just put got get the door lock and forget about that. Like I I value the expedience it gives me or problems that gives me on daily basis. So I'm close to that vendor, right? So So the middle men, uh, middle people are getting removed from from the producer off the technology or the product to the consumer. Even even the sort of big grocery players they have their APs now, uh, how do you buy stuff and how it's delivered and all that stuff that experience matters in that context, I think, um, having, uh, to be able to sell to thes enterprises from the Cloud writer Breuder's. They have to have these case studies or all these sample sort off reference architectures and stuff like that. I think whoever has that mawr pushed that way, they are doing better like that. Amazon is Amazon. Because of that reason, I think they have lot off sort off use cases about on top of them. And they themselves do retail like crazy. Right? So and other things at all s. So I think that's a big trend. >>Great. Great points are being one of things. There's a question in there about from, uh, Yaden. Who says, uh, I like the developer Lead cloud movement, But what is the criticality of the executive audience when educating the marketplace? Um, this comes up a lot in some of my conversations around automation. So automation has been a big wave to automate this automate everything. And then everything is a service has become kind of kind of the the executive suite. Kind of like conversation we need to make everything is a service in our business. You seeing people move to that cloud model. Okay, so the executives think everything is a services business strategy, which it is on some level, but then, when they say Take that hill, do it. Developers. It's not that easy. And this is where a lot of our cube conversations over the past few months have been, especially during the cova with cute virtual. This has come up a lot, Dave this idea, and start being around. It's easy to say everything is a service but will implement it. It's really hard, and I think that's where the developer lead Connection is where the executive have to understand that in order to just say it and do it are two different things. That digital transformation. That's a big part of it. So I think that you're gonna see a lot of education this year around what it means to actually do that and how to implement it. >>I'd like to comment on the as a service and subject. Get your take on it. I mean, I think you're seeing, for instance, with HP Green Lake, Dell's come out with Apex. You know IBM as its utility model. These companies were basically taking a page out of what I what I would call a flawed SAS model. If you look at the SAS players, whether it's salesforce or workday, service now s a P oracle. These models are They're really They're not cloud pricing models. They're they're basically you got to commit to a term one year, two year, three year. We'll give you a discount if you commit to the longer term. But you're locked in on you. You probably pay upfront. Or maybe you pay quarterly. That's not a cloud pricing model. And that's why I mean, they're flawed. You're seeing companies like Data Dog, for example. Snowflake is another one, and they're beginning to price on a consumption basis. And that is, I think, one of the big changes that we're going to see this decade is that true cloud? You know, pay by the drink pricing model and to your point, john toe, actually implement. That is, you're gonna need a whole new layer across your company on it is quite complicated it not even to mention how you compensate salespeople, etcetera. The a p. I s of your product. I mean, it is that, but that is a big sea change that I see coming. Subject your >>thoughts. Yeah, I think like you couldn't see it. And like some things for this big tech exacts are hidden in the plain >>sight, right? >>They don't see it. They they have blind spots, like Look at that. Look at Amazon. They went from Melissa and 200 millisecond building on several s, Right, Right. And then here you are, like you're saying, pay us for the whole year. If you don't use the cloud, you lose it or will pay by month. Poor user and all that stuff like that that those a role models, I think these players will be forced to use that term pricing like poor minute or for a second, poor user. That way, I think the Salesforce moral is hybrid. They're struggling in a way. I think they're trying to bring the platform by doing, you know, acquisition after acquisition to be a platform for other people to build on top off. But they're having a little trouble there because because off there, such pricing and little closeness, if you will. And, uh, again, I'm coming, going, going back to developers like, if you are not appealing to developers who are writing the latest and greatest code and it is open enough, by the way open and open source are two different things that we all know that. So if your platform is not open enough, you will have you know, some problems in closing the deals. >>E. I want to just bring up a question on chat around from Justin didn't fitness. Who says can you touch on the vertical clouds? Has your offering this and great question Great CP announcing Retail cloud inventions IBM Athena Okay, I'm a huge on this point because I think this I'm not saying this for years. Cloud computing is about horizontal scalability and vertical specialization, and that's absolutely clear, and you see all the clouds doing it. The vertical rollouts is where the high fidelity data is, and with machine learning and AI efforts coming out, that's accelerated benefits. There you have tow, have the vertical focus. I think it's super smart that clouds will have some sort of vertical engine, if you will in the clouds and build on top of a control playing. Whether that's data or whatever, this is clearly the winning formula. If you look at all the successful kind of ai implementations, the ones that have access to the most data will get the most value. So, um if you're gonna have a data driven cloud you have tow, have this vertical feeling, Um, in terms of verticals, the data on DSO I think that's super important again, just generally is a strategy. I think Google doing a retail about a super smart because their whole pitches were not Amazon on. Some people say we're not Google, depending on where you look at. So every of these big players, they have dominance in the areas, and that's scarce. Companies and some companies will never go to Amazon for that reason. Or some people never go to Google for other reasons. I know people who are in the ad tech. This is a black and we're not. We're not going to Google. So again, it is what it is. But this idea of vertical specialization relevant in super >>forts, I want to bring to point out to sessions that are going on today on great points. I'm glad you asked that question. One is Alan. As he kicks off at 1 p.m. Eastern time in the transformation track, he's gonna talk a lot about the coming power of ecosystems and and we've talked about this a lot. That that that to compete with Amazon, Google Azure, you've gotta have some kind of specialization and vertical specialization is a good one. But of course, you see in the big Big three also get into that. But so he's talking at one o'clock and then it at 3 36 PM You know this times are strange, but e can explain that later Hillary Hunter is talking about she's the CTO IBM I B M's ah Financial Cloud, which is another really good example of specifying vertical requirements and serving. You know, an audience subject. I think you have some thoughts on this. >>Actually, I lost my thought. E >>think the other piece of that is data. I mean, to the extent that you could build an ecosystem coming back to Alan Nancy's premise around data that >>billions of dollars in >>their day there's billions of dollars and that's the title of the session. But we did the trillion dollar baby post with Jazzy and said Cloud is gonna be a trillion dollars right? >>And and the point of Alan Answer session is he's thinking from an individual firm. Forget the millions that you're gonna save shifting to the cloud on cost. There's billions in ecosystems and operating models. That's >>absolutely the business value. Now going back to my half stack full stack developer, is the business value. I've been talking about this on the clubhouses a lot this past month is for the entrepreneurs out there the the activity in the business value. That's the new the new intellectual property is the business logic, right? So if you could see innovations in how work streams and workflow is gonna be a configured differently, you have now large scale cloud specialization with data, you can move quickly and take territory. That's much different scenario than a decade ago, >>at the point I was trying to make earlier was which I know I remember, is that that having the horizontal sort of features is very important, as compared to having vertical focus. You know, you're you're more healthcare focused like you. You have that sort of needs, if you will, and you and our auto or financials and stuff like that. What Google is trying to do, I think that's it. That's a good thing. Do cook up the reference architectures, but it's a bad thing in a way that you drive drive away some developers who are most of the developers at 80 plus percent, developers are horizontal like you. Look at the look into the psyche of a developer like you move from company to company. And only few developers will say I will stay only in health care, right? So I will only stay in order or something of that, right? So they you have to have these horizontal capabilities which can be applied anywhere on then. On top >>of that, I think that's true. Sorry, but I'll take a little bit different. Take on that. I would say yes, that's true. But remember, remember the old school application developer Someone was just called in Application developer. All they did was develop applications, right? They pick the framework, they did it right? So I think we're going to see more of that is just now mawr of Under the Covers developers. You've got mawr suffer defined networking and software, defined storage servers and cloud kubernetes. And it's kind of like under the hood. But you got your, you know, classic application developer. I think you're gonna see him. A lot of that come back in a way that's like I don't care about anything else. And that's the promise of cloud infrastructure is code. So I think this both. >>Hey, I worked. >>I worked at people solved and and I still today I say into into this context, I say E r P s are the ultimate low code. No code sort of thing is right. And what the problem is, they couldn't evolve. They couldn't make it. Lightweight, right? Eso um I used to write applications with drag and drop, you know, stuff. Right? But But I was miserable as a developer. I didn't Didn't want to be in the applications division off PeopleSoft. I wanted to be on the tools division. There were two divisions in most of these big companies ASAP. Oracle. Uh, like companies that divisions right? One is the cooking up the tools. One is cooking up the applications. The basketball was always gonna go to the tooling. Hey, >>guys, I'm sorry. We're almost out of time. I always wanted to t some of the sections of the day. First of all, we got Holder Mueller coming on at lunch for a power half hour. Um, you'll you'll notice when you go back to the home page. You'll notice that calendar, that linear clock that we talked about that start times are kind of weird like, for instance, an appendix coming on at 1 24. And that's because these air prerecorded assets and rather than having a bunch of dead air, we're just streaming one to the other. So so she's gonna talk about people, process and technology. We got Kathy Southwick, whose uh, Silicon Valley CEO Dan Sheehan was the CEO of Dunkin Brands and and he was actually the c 00 So it's C A CEO connecting the dots to the business. Daniel Dienes is the CEO of you I path. He's coming on a 2:47 p.m. East Coast time one of the hottest companies, probably the fastest growing software company in history. We got a guy from Bain coming on Dave Humphrey, who invested $750 million in Nutanix. He'll explain why and then, ironically, Dheeraj Pandey stew, Minuteman. Our friend interviewed him. That's 3 35. 1 of the sessions are most excited about today is John McD agony at 403 p. M. East Coast time, she's gonna talk about how to fix broken data architectures, really forward thinking stuff. And then that's the So that's the transformation track on the future of cloud track. We start off with the Big Three Milan Thompson Bukovec. At one oclock, she runs a W s storage business. Then I mentioned gig therapy wrath at 1. 30. He runs Azure is analytics. Business is awesome. Paul Dillon then talks about, um, IDs Avery at 1 59. And then our friends to, um, talks about interview Simon Crosby. I think I think that's it. I think we're going on to our next session. All right, so keep it right there. Thanks for watching the Cuban cloud. Uh huh.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kubecon and cloud nativecon North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by Red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE, >> Coverage of Kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. It's virtual this year, though, theCUBE is virtual. This is theCUBE virtual I'm John Furrier your host. This is the segment where we kind of pre tease out the show for this year. We do a CUBE review and analyze and talk about some of the things we're expecting trends in the marketplace. And I'm pleased to announce a new CUBE co-host with me, Ali Amagasu, who's been part of theCUBE community since 2013, going back to the OpenStack days, which is now different name, but it's private clouds making a come back. But she's part of the cloud community, the cloud Harati, as we say, Ali, welcome to being a CUBE host. >> Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure, it's been a while since we've hung out, but I do remember pestering you back in those days, and I've certainly stayed with theCUBE ever since then. I mean, you guys are an institution to put it. >> It's been so much fun, I have to say I had less gray hair. I didn't have glasses, I wear contacts. Now I have progressive vision, so I can't wear the contacts. They're hard for me, but it's been such a great evolution. And one of the things that's been really important to our mission has been to be kind of like an upstream project to be kind of open and be part of the community to be on the ground floor. We can't be there this year 'cause of the pandemic, but it's been great and about a few years ago, Stu Miniman and I were seeing that we had a great community of people who wanted a co-host, and we got a great community host model. And thanks for coming on and being part of this mission, it's been important to our mission. We've got Lisa Martin, Rebecca Knight, John Troyer, Keith Townson, Justin Warren, Corey Quinn, to name a few. So welcome to the crew, thanks for coming on. >> Sure I'm happy to step in. >> So I want to go back in time. I mean, when we first met in 2013, you were a part of Metacloud, which got acquired by Cisco at that time, OpenStack was hot, OpenStack was at the cloud. And if you think about where Amazon was at that point and time, it was really the beginning of that sea change of rapid cloud scale, public cloud, specifically OpenStack kind of settled in, and that's kind of making a nice foundation for private cloud right now. It's still out there, telco clouds. You're seeing that trend, but this is the sixth Kubecon we've been there at all of them. We were there at the founding president creation. What an interesting turn of events. The world is kind of spun in the direction of all the conversations we were having back in 2013, 14, 15, 16. Now fast forward Kubernetes is the hottest thing on the planet and cloud native is the construct for all these modern apps, so what's your take on it. What's your view on this? 'Cause you've been riding this wave. >> Well, I think it's interesting. You brought up OpenStack because I remember in those days, OpenStack was smoking hot. And I remember talking to some of the organizers from the foundation, what they said was we want OpenStack to be boring. We want it to be part of the background. We will know we've made it when it's boring. And we could argue that they're there now, right? They aren't what we're talking about as much, but they're still there, they're still doing their thing. They're still growing as far as I know. So that's happened and now Kubernetes is the incredible hotness and it's just exploded. And so it turned from, you know, just a few projects, to now, if you look at the list of projects that are in incubation list of projects that have graduated, it's pretty long, and it's an impressive set of capabilities, when you look. >> It's been really interesting, you know, Dan Collin who's, the Ben was the director of the CNCF. I remember talking to him early on. And when he came, when he joined, he was, he hustled hard. He was smart. And he had a vision to balance the growing ecosystem cause he's done successful startups. So he kind of kind of knows the rocket ship labor, but he basically brought that entrepreneurial startup mentality. And I saw him in China when I was there with Intel with Alibaba conference in the lobby of the hotel, I'm like, dad, what are you doing here? So the CNC, I was already thinking global. They build out the most impressive landscape of vendors to participate in cloud nativecon and Kubecon At the same time, they maintain that end user focused. If you look at Envoy, right, it came from Lyft. So you have this really nice balance. And you know, it was always people chirping and complaining about this, that, and the other thing on the vendor's side. But the end user focus has been such a strong hand for Kubecon and the CNCF. It's just been really impressive and they maintain that. And this is the key. >> And I think what's impressive is that they've evolved. They've continued, they haven't sat there and said, "We've got a couple of fantastic projects," right? They're bringing in new ones all the time. They're staying at the cutting edge. They're looking at serverless and making sure there's projects that are taking care of that. And so I think that's, what's keeping it relevant, is the fact that they're relentlessly evolving. >> Yeah, and we comment, I think two years ago, Stu and I were pontificating about, can they maintain it? And one of the things that we were predicting, I want to get your reaction to this is that as Kubernetes becomes more standard and you're starting to see the tipping point now where it's beyond just testing and deploying in some clusters, you're starting to see Kubernetes native and in part of everything, in part of the future as service meshes and wrap around it and other things, the commercialization, the success of the vendor side is starting to be there. You starting to see real viable companies be started. So do they become end-users or so? So the question was, can it maintain its open source vibe while you have all this commercialization going on? Because that's always the challenge in open source. How do you balance it? What's your reaction to that threat or maybe an opportunity? >> I don't think it's a threat. I think there will always be folks who want to do it themselves. They want to use the vanilla upstream, Kubernetes. They want to build it. They don't want any vendor interference. There's also a very other solid other camp that says, "No, no, we don't want to deal with the updates ourselves. We don't want to deal with the integration with networking and security and all those things." And the vendor takes care of that. So I really think it's just serving two different audiences that as far as I can tell are changing, they're not, I don't see one side growing and one side shrinking. I really see it staying same, pretty stable. And so it's serving both teams. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And this is what's great about evolution. And when you talk about the community gets about the people involved. And I was riffing with someone the other day and were like, "Hey, you know what makes CNCF different?" And we were saying that everyone kind of knows each other. So as you have, you know, the most popular thing at Kubecon is the hallway tracks, right? So hallway tracks are always popular. And just being in the hallways, we call it lobby con and the CUBES on the floor there. So there's a lot of hallway conversations as hallway tracks, there's lightening talks, there's always something exciting, but even though people might move around from company to company for project to project, everyone kind of knows each other. So I think that kind of gives this kind of self governance piece, some legs. >> It does, and you're bringing up something that's really relevant right now 'cause it's virtual this year, right? So we don't get to have those hallway conversations. We don't get to have those, you know, accidental, you know, connections that means so much. I think they did an amazing job, amazing with the European version of Kubecon and you know, they're doing the best they can, I think the attend, I heard the attendance was great. The sessions were incredible from an efficiency standpoint. If you're an attendee, you could hit so many more sessions from home. There was so much to learn, the content was fabulous. The one thing that's missing, and I don't know how they replicate it is that ability to connect with your colleagues in the hallway, the folks you haven't seen'cause they, they moved on, they went to a different company. Maybe they'd been to two or three companies since you saw them last and the one place, you know, you're going to see them is at Kubecon or some of the other conferences you attend. >> Yeah and talking to Priyanka. And some of the co-chairs one of the things that was interesting out of that last conference was you had the virtual theater, but the Slack channel was very engaging. So you had people leaning in on the dialogue and it's interesting. And this is where I want to ask you your thoughts on the top conversations as we prepare. And we start doing the remote interviews, with the leaders of the CNCF, as well as the top end users, as well as vendors and companies, people want to know what's the top conversation that's happening and what are we looking for? So I want to ask you, what are you looking for, Ali? What are the things that you're trying to squint through? What smoke signals you're looking for? What's the trends that you're trying to tease out a coupon this year? >> I'm going to be really interested. You know, I already mentioned it once, but I'm going to be interested to hear how the new serverless projects are going. I know there are a couple in incubation that sounds really interesting. Priyanka brought them up when I've spoken with her. And so I'd love to see if those are getting so traction. What does the momentum around those look like? Is there as much excitement service meshes there was last year. I know there was a lot of discussion about what was happening with search. Most people were really excited. So I want to know what's happening with that. I want to know how new users to the community are dealing with the proliferation of projects. You know, how are they finding out ways to get involved? How are we nurturing new members to the CNCF community and making sure that they aren't overwhelmed, that they find their niche and they're able to contribute to become users, to do whatever their role is meant to be. I think those are the interesting things to me. How about you? >> That's a good question. I mean, I've, there's so many things. I mean, I look at the first of all, the open source projects are phenomenal. And again, talking about the people, I love to see the things that are maturing and getting promoted and what's kind of in sandbox, but I look at the, some of the ecosystem landscape maps with the vendors. And if you look at Amazon, Cisco and the HPE, IBM cloud, red hat, VMware to name a few, and you've got some other companies like Convolt for instance, which is pivoting to a cloud service, Microsoft Palo Alto networks for security Rancho was acquired., you know, a lot of companies are, I think at capital one out there, always in great end. You always great stuff. You got interesting and in Docker, for example, cup Docker containers, we did Docker con this year and I was blown away by the demand, the interest and just the openness of DAPA as they re-pivoted back to their roots. But I'm interested to see how the big cloud vendors are going to play because Google has always been an impressive and dominant partner in KubeCon, Amazon then joined, Azure is in there as well. So you've got those three, the big three in there. So the question is, okay, as this ecosystem is growing, I'm trying to tease out what is this, everything as a service, because one of the things that's coming out on the customer side, if you work backwards from the customer, they're getting kind of the missions from the CEOs and the CIO or CSO saying, "Take everything as a service," which is kind of like, I call it the ivory tower kind of marching orders. And then it gets handed down to the cloud architects and the developers and they go, "What's that? How's that, how does it's kind of hard?" It's not easy, right? So the modern apps is one and then this, everything as a service business model is going to be based upon cloud native. So I think the cloud native, this is the year that cloud native is going to start showing some signs and some visibility into what the metrics are going to be for success around the key projects. And then who can deliver at scale, do everything is a service. So, you know, understanding what that means, what does Kubernetes enable? What are some of the new things? So to me, I'm trying to tease that out because I think that's the next big wave. Everything is a service. And then what that means technically, how do you achieve it? Because when you start rolling out, it's like, okay, what's next? >> Yeah, I wonder who are going to be the new super users that emerged from this, you know, who are going to be the companies that maybe didn't adopt early, they're getting in now and they start running with it and they do incredible new things with it. And the truth is going to your earlier point about whether or not commercializing that, you know, should it be an upstream thing where you're using it vanilla using, you know, pure Kubernetes or using a vendor version? The truth is when you start getting vendors involved and getting super users involved, and these big companies, they can throw 10, 20 people at projects as contributors. You know, I tend to think of open source as being a bunch of small companies, but the truth is it's a lot harder for a small company to dedicate multiple head count to full-time contributions, right? Well big company, you could throw a couple dozen at them and not even blink. And so that's, it's critical to the survival truthfully of the community that we have, these big companies get in there and run with it. >> You know, I was talking to Constance and Steven Augustus, they're both co-chairs of the event and Steven brought up something. That's interesting because it's the theme that's kind of talked about, but no one likes to talk about it because it's kind of important and ugly at the same time. It's security and I think one of the things that I'm looking for this year, Ali is, you know, there's a buzz word out there has been kind of overused, but it's still kind of relevant and it's called shift left. So shift left means how do you build security into the CICB pipeline? So developers don't have to come back and do stuff, right? So it's like baking security in. This is going to be kind of a nuance point because of course everyone wants security, but that's not what application developers think about every day, right? It's like, they're not like security people, right? So, but they got to have security. So I think whoever can crack the code on making security brain dead easy will be great. And how that works together with across multiple vendors. So to me, that's something that I want to understand more. I don't yet have a formed opinion on it, but certainly we're hearing "Shift left" a lot. >> Yes I agree 100% at first we had developers and operators. Then we had devOps. Now I hear sec devOps all the time. You know, that I started hearing that last year and now these poor developers, you know, suddenly they are, whether they want to be, or not, to some degree, they are responsible for their company security, because if they aren't integrating best practices into their code, then they are introducing vulnerabilities. And so it it's just fallen upon them, whether they signed up for it or not, it's fallen upon them. And it'll be real interesting to see how that plays out. >> Well, one of the things I'd love to do is get me, you John, Troy, Keith Townsend, Justin Warren, and certainly Corey Quinn on a podcast or CUBE interview because man, we would have some war stories and have some real good stories to tell the evolution of what's real. And what's not real. Certainly Cory queen allows to talk about kind of like squinting through the hype and calling out kind of what's real, but this is kind of really kind of what's going on with coop comes a lot of exciting things. So I have to ask you over the years within CNCF and cloud nativecon and Kubecon, what are some of your favorite memories or moments that you can share could be personal, could be professional, could be code, could be accompany. What's some of the things that you can share about some, some happy moments for Kubecon >> Sure, sure, I'd say for me, some of the best moments have been the recent pivot toward trying to take care of the attendees. You know, I don't remember if it was San Diego. I think it was San Diego where they brought in all the puppies or mental wellness. And there was a meditation room. I don't know if you went in there, but it was quiet. And there was just some very soft lighting and some quiet music. And I didn't know how much traction that was going to get amongst attendees, that room was packed every time I went in there, dead quiet people relaxing, the puppies were bananas. People were just hoarding around the puppies and wanting to pet them. And I just really liked the way that they had really thought of a bunch of different angles to try to make sure that people who have left their families, they've come to a different place. They're, they're, they're under stress. 'Cause they're probably traveling with their boss and a bunch of their colleagues and they're stressed. And so to make sure that they had a break, I thought that was really somewhere where KubeCon was ahead of a lot of the other conferences I see. And it wasn't a single approach. It wasn't, we're going to throw a bunch of dogs in the hallway. It was, we're going to do that. We're going to have a therapist do a session. We're going to have puzzles in a quiet area at the hallway. It really went all in. And so for me, that was one of my favorite things from recent years. I thought that was fantastic. How about you? >> It's been fun. I mean, it's just so many moments. I mean, I love the European show. We did one year when I first, first time they had rolled out in Europe and I thought that was just so small and intimate. Of course the big mega shows have been great with activity. I think, but one of my favorite moments was I was wandering in the lobby. This was in Europe. It was, and it was a huge EU event, I think 2018 might've been, and I'm kind of buzzing around the lobby and I had nothing to do that night. And it was like five to 11 different parties to go to. People have, you know, dinners. And I ran into one of the CNCF co-hosts and also she's a Google engineer and I'm like, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" I'm like, she's like, "Oh, we're going to the women's happy hour." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." I'm like, "It sounds good." And she invited me and I went with her and I was the only guy there, okay. >> Oh lucky you. >> And I looked around and it was packed. And I said to myself, this is freaking amazing. And it was great women, great leaders, smart, super awesome. And they were all welcomed me. I wasn't like being stared at either, by the way. So I'm like, okay, there was no line for the men's room either by the way, just to, you know, and I was like, good tweet there. But I felt really welcomed. And I thought that was very cool. It was packed. And I went back until it's too much. Do you can't believe it was just really awesome. I was in this awesome happy hour. And I remember saying to myself, "This community is inclusive, they're awesome. And it was just one of just a great moment. >> It's great you've got to be the other side of that, right? Because as a woman, I am always on the standard side of it, which has guys everywhere, there's very few women, but here's the thing I have never felt intimidated or uncomfortable in any way at a Kubecon I've always felt welcomed, I've had fabulous interactions. I've met people from around the world. And I try to explain to my kids actually, when we talk and they they'll say something sometime not xenophobic, maybe that's an overstatement, but they're little kids. They don't have a great understanding of the world. And I'll say, "Wait till you grow up and you go to one of these conferences, you'll realize that people from countries that even fear that some of them there's some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I have ever met. And you walk away really feeling like you want to just throw your arms around everyone, that's been my experience anyway. S0 maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had that intimidation factor at all. >> You got it, you've got a great mindset and your kids are lucky. And I feel like for me, the moment was the community is very open and inclusive. And I think theCUBE when we interview people, we want people who are smart, you know, and we interview a lot of great women and at KubeCon, it's been fantastic, so that's the highlight. And of course the grueling hours, and then, you know, people like to drink beer in this community. And I like beer, although I'd been trimming down a little bit because, you know, IPA's have been kind of getting heavy on me, but good beer drinkers. They like to have fun and they also work hard and it's a great community, so. >> And now you have to bring your own beer. Now that it's virtual, you have to keep your own IPA. >> Well, the joke was virtual is that we can have a better lunch at home. 'Cause that's always kind of like the event thing. But I think virtuals, I miss the face to face, but we get to talk to more people with remote and they get more traffic on the site, but hopefully when it comes back, it'll be hybrid and we'll still be kind of doing more remote, but more face-to-face. >> So well, and it's more affordable. I did not look at what the pricing is this time, but I know for the European version, the pricing was very fair, certainly more affordable than going in real life. And, you know, for some folks who really can't swing that travel costs and the registration fee, it's a great opportunity to get in on the cheap and suck up a lot of knowledge really quickly. >> Well, Ali, thank you for riffing on Kubecon preview. Thank you very much. And looking forward to hosting with you and thanks for co-hosting on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, okay you're watching theCUBE virtual. This is a Kubecon preview. I'm here with Ali. I'm a goo who's our new CUBE host helping out on the Kubecon looking forward to more interviews, this is the CUBE I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stew Minimum and the host of Cloud Native Insights. And the threat that we've been pulling on with Cloud Native is that we needed to be able to take advantage of the innovation and agility that cloud in the ecosystem around it can bring, not just the location. It's It's not just the journey, but how do I take advantage of something today and keep being able to move for Happy to welcome back to the program one of our regulars and someone that I've had lots of discussion about? Cloud Cloud. Native Serverless So Cory Quinn, the Keith Cloud economists at the Duck Bill Group. Corey, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. >>It is great to see me. And I always love having the opportunity to share my terrible opinions with people who then find themselves tarred by the mere association. And there's certainly no exception to use, too. Thanks for having me back. Although I question your judgment. >>Yeah, you know, what was that? Pandora's box. I open when I was like Hey, Corey, let's try you on video so much. And if people go out, they can look at your feet and you've spent lots of money on equipment. You have a nice looking set up. I guess you missed that one window of opportunity to get your hair cut in San Francisco during the pandemic. But be doesn't may Corey, why don't you give our audience just the update You went from a solo or mentor of the cloud? First you have a partner and a few other people, and you're now you've got economists. >>Yes, it comes down to separating out. What I'm doing with my nonsense from other people's other people's careers might very well be impacted by it considered tweet of mine. When you start having other clouds, economists and realize, okay, this is no longer just me we're talking about here. It forces a few changes. I was told one day that I would not be the chief economist. I smile drug put on a backlog item to order a new business cards because it's not like we're going to a lot of events these days, and from my perspective, things continue mostly a base. The back. To pretend people now means that there's things that my company does that I'm no longer directly involved with, which is a relief, that absolutely, ever. But it's been an interesting right. It's always strange. Is the number one thing that people who start businesses say is that if they knew what they were getting into, they'd never do it again. I'm starting to understand that. >>Yeah, well, Corey, as I mentioned you, and I have had lots of discussions about Cloud about multi Cloud server. Listen, like when you wrote an article talking about multi cloud is a worse practice. One of the things underneath is when I'm using cloud. I should really be able to leverage that cloud. One of the concerns that when you and I did a cube con and cloud native con is does multi cloud become a least common denominator? And a comment that I heard you say was if I'm just using cloud and the very basic services of it, you know, why don't I go to an AWS or an azure which have hundreds of services? Maybe I could just find something that is, you know, less expensive because I'm basically thinking of it as my server somewhere else. Which, of course, cloud is much more than so you do with a lot of very large companies that help them with their bills. What difference there differentiates the companies that get advantage from the cloud versus those that just kind of fit in another location, >>largely the stories that they tell themselves internally and how they wind up adapting to cloud. If the reason I got into my whole feel about why multi cloud is a worst practice is that of you best practices a sensible defaults, I view multi cloud as a ridiculous default. Sure, there are cases where it's important, and so I don't say I'm not suggesting for a second that those people who are deciding to go down that are necessarily making wrong decisions. But when you're building something from scratch with this idea toward taking a single workload and deploying it anywhere in almost every case, it's the wrong decision. Yes, there are going to be some workloads that are better suited. Other places. If we're talking about SAS, including that in the giant wrapper of cloud definition in terms of what was then, sure you would be nuts to wind of running on AWS and then decide you're also going to go with codecommit instead of git Hub. That's not something sensible people to use get up or got sick. But when I am suggesting, is that the idea of building absolutely every piece of infrastructure in a way that avoids any of the differentiated offerings that your primary cloud provider uses is just generally not a great occasionally you need to. But that's not the common case, and people are believing that it is >>well, and I'd like to dig a little deeper. Some of those differentiated services out there there are concerned, but some that said, You know, I think back to the past model. I want to build something. I can have it live ever anywhere. But those differentiated services are something that I should be able to get value out of it. So do you have any examples, or are there certain services that you have his favorites that you've seen customers use? And they say, Wow, it's it's something that is effective. It's something that is affordable, and I can get great value out of this because I didn't have to build it. And all of these hyper scaler have lots of engineers built, building lots of cool things. And I want to take advantage of that innovation. >>Sure, that's most of them. If we're being perfectly honest, there are remarkably few services that have no valid use cases for no customer anywhere. A lot of these solve an awful lot of pain that customers have. Dynamodb is a good example of this Is that one a lot of folks can relate to. It's super fast, charges you for what you use, and that is generally yet or a provision Great. But you don't have to worry about instances. You have to worry about scaling up or scaling down in the traditional sense. And that's great. The problem is, is great. How do I migrate off of this on to something else? Well, that's a good question. And if that is something that you need to at least have a theoretical exodus for, maybe Dynamo DV is the wrong service for you to pick your data store personally. If I have to build for a migration in mind on no sequel basis, I'll pick mongo DB every time, not because it's any easier to move it, but because it's so good at losing data, that'll have remarkably little bit left. Migrate. >>Yeah, Corey, of course. One of the things that you help customers with quite a bit is on the financial side of it. And one of the challenges if I moved from my environment and I move to the public cloud, is how do I take advantage not only of the capability to the cloud but the finances of the cloud. I've talked to many customers that when you modernize your pull things apart, maybe you start leveraging serverless capabilities. And if I tune things properly, I can have a much more affordable solution versus that. I just took my stuff and just shoved it all in the cloud kind of a traditional lift and shift. I might not have good economics. When I get to the cloud. What do you see along those lines? >>I'd say you're absolutely right with that assessment. If you are looking at hitting break even on your cloud migration in anything less than five years, it's probably wrong. The reason to go to Cloud is not to save money. There are edge cases where it makes sense, Sure, but by and large you're going to wind up spending longer in the in between state that you would believe eventually you're going to give up and call it hybrid game over. And at some point, if you stall long enough, you'll find that the cloud talent starts reaching out of your company. At which point that Okay, great. Now we're stuck in this scenario because no one wants to come in and finish the job is harder than we thought we landed. But it becomes this story of not being able to forecast what the economics are going to look like in advanced, largely because people don't understand where their workloads start and stop what the failure modes look like and how that's going to manifest itself in a cloud provider environment. That's why lift and shift is popular. People hate, lift and ship. It's a terrible direction to go in. Yeah, so are all the directions you can go in as far as migrating, short of burning it to the ground for insurance money and starting over, you've gotta have a way to get from where you are, where you're going. Otherwise, migration to be super simple. People with five weeks of experience and a certification consult that problem. It's but how do you take what's existing migrated end without causing massive outages or cost of fronts? It's harder than it looks. >>Well, okay, I remember Corey a few years ago when I talk to customers that were using AWS. Ah, common complaint was we had to dedicate an engineer just to look at the finances of what's happening. One of the early episodes I did of Cloud Native Insights talked to a company that was embracing this term called Been Ops. We have the finance team and the engineering team, not just looking back at the last quarter, but planning understanding what the engineering impacts were going forward so that the developers, while they don't need tohave all the spreadsheets and everything else, they understand what they architect and what the impact will be on the finance side. What are you hearing from your customers out there? What guidance do you give from an organizational standpoint as to how they make sure that their bill doesn't get ridiculous? >>Well, the term fin ops is a bit of a red herring in there because people immediately equate it back to cloud ability before their app. Geo acquisitions where the fin ops foundation vendors are not allowed to join except us, and it became effectively a marketing exercise that was incredibly poorly executed in sort of poisoned the well. Now the finance foundations been handed off to the Cloud Native Beauty Foundation slash Lennox Foundation. Maybe that's going to be rehabilitated, but we'll have to find out. One argument I made for a while was that developers do not need to know what the economic model in the cloud is going to be. As a general rule, I would stand by that. Now someone at your company needs to be able to have those conversations of understanding the ins and outs of various costs models. At some point you hit a point of complexity we're bringing in. Experts solve specific problems because it makes sense. But every developer you have does not need to sit with 3 to 5 days course understanding the economics of the cloud. Most of what they need to know if it's on a business card, it's on an index card or something small that is carplay and consult business and other index ramos. But the point is, is great. Big things cost more than small things. You're not charged for what you use your charger for. What you forget to turn off and being able to predict your usage model in advance is important and save money. Data transfers Weird. There are a bunch of edge cases, little slice it and ribbons, but inbound data transfer is generally free. Outbound, generally Austin arm and a leg and architect accordingly. But by and large for most development product teams, it's built something and see if it works first. We can always come back later and optimize costs as you wind up maturing the product offering. >>Yeah, Cory, it's some of those sharp edges I've love learning about in your newsletter or some of your online activities there, such as you talked about those egress fees. I know you've got a nice diagram that helps explain if you do this, it costs a lot of money. If you do this, it's gonna cost you. It cost you a lot less money. Um, you know, even something like serverless is something that in general looks like. It should be relatively expensive, but if you do something wrong, it could all of a sudden cost you a lot of money. You feel that companies are having a better understanding so that they don't just one month say, Oh my God, the CFO called us up because it was a big mistake or, you know, where are we along that maturation of cloud being a little bit more predictable? >>Unfortunately, no. Where near I'd like us to be it. The story that I think gets missed is that when you're month over, month span is 20% higher. Finance has a bunch of questions, but if they were somehow 20% lower, they have those same questions. They're trying to build out predictive models that align. They're not saying you're spending too much money, although by the time the issues of the game, yeah, it's instead help us understand and predict what's happening now. Server less is a great story around that, because you can tie charges back to individual transactions and that's great. Except find me a company that's doing that where the resulting bill isn't hilariously inconsequential. A cloud guru Before they bought Lennox, I can't get on stage and talk about this. It serverless kind of every year, but how? They're spending $600 a month in Lambda, and they have now well, over 100 employees. Yeah, no one cares about that money. You can trace the flow of capital all you want, but it grounds up to No one cares at some point that changes. But there's usually going to be far bigger fish to front with their case, I would imagine, given, you know, stream video, they're probably gonna have some data transfer questions that come into play long before we talk about their compute. >>Yeah, um, what else? Cory, when you look at the innovation in the cloud, are there things that common patterns that you see that customers are missing? Some of the opportunities there? How does the customers that you talk to, you know, other than reading your newsletter, talking Teoh their systems integrator or partner? How are they doing it? Keeping up with just the massive amount of change that happens out >>there. Get customers. AWS employees follow the newsletter specifically to figure out what's going on. We've long since passed a Rubicon where I can talk incredibly convincingly about services that don't really exist. And Amazon employees won't call me out on the joke that I've worked in there because what the world could ever say that and then single. It's well beyond any one person's ability to keep it all in their head. So what? We're increasingly seeing even one provider, let alone the rest. Their events are outpacing them and no one is keeping up. And now there's the persistent, never growing worry that there's something that just came out that could absolutely change your business for the better. And you'll never know about it because you're too busy trying to keep up with all the other number. Every release the cloud provider does is important to someone but none of its important everyone. >>Yeah, Corey, that's such a good point. When you've been using tools where you understand a certain way of doing things, how do you know that there's not a much better way of doing it? So, yeah, I guess the question is, you know, there's so much out there. How do people make sure that they're not getting left behind or, you know, keep their their their understanding of what might be able to be used >>the right answer. There, frankly, is to pick a direction and go in it. You can wind up in analysis paralysis issues very easily. And if you talk about what you've done on the Internet, the number one responsible to get immediately is someone suggesting an alternate approach you could have taken on day one. There is no one path forward for any six, and you can second guess yourself that the problem is that you have to pick a direction and go in it. Make sure it makes sense. Make sure the lines talk to people who know what's going on in the space and validate it out. But you're going to come up with a plan right head in that direction, I assure you, you are probably not the only person doing it unless you're using. Route 53 is a database. >>You know, it's an interesting thing. Corey used to be said that the best time to start a project was a year ago. But you can't turn back time, so you should start it now. I've been saying for the last few years the best time to start something would be a year from now, so you can take advantage of the latest things, but you can't wait a year, so you need to start now. So how how do you make sure you maintain flexibility but can keep moving projects moving forward? E think you touched on that with some of the analysis paralysis, Anything else as to just how do you make sure you're actually making the right bets and not going down? Some, you know, odd tangent that ends up being a debt. >>In my experience, the biggest problem people have with getting there is that they don't stop first to figure out alright a year from now. If this project has succeeded or failed, how will we know they wind up building these things and keeping them in place forever, despite the fact that cost more money to run than they bring in? In many cases, it's figure out what success looks like. Figure out what failure looks like. And if it isn't working, cut it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up, went into this thing that you've got to support in perpetuity. One example of that one extreme is AWS. They famously never turn anything off. Google on the other spectrum turns things off as a core competence. Most folks wind up somewhere in the middle, but understand that right now between what? The day I start building this today and the time that this one's of working down the road. Well, great. There's a lot that needs to happen to make sure this is a viable business, and none of that is going to come down to, you know, build it on top of kubernetes. It's going to come down. Is its solving a problem for your customers? Are people they're people in to pay for the enhancement. Anytime you say yes to that project, you're saying no to a bunch of others. Opportunity Cost is a huge thing. >>Yeah, so it's such an important point, Cory. It's so fundamental when you look at what what cloud should enable is, I should be able to try more things. I should be able to fail fast on, and I shouldn't have to think about, you know, some cost nearly as much as I would in the past. We want to give you the final word as you look out in the cloud. Any you know, practices, guidelines, you can give practitioners out there as to make sure that they are taking advantage of the innovation that's available out there on being able to move their company just a little bit faster. >>Sure, by and large, for the practitioners out there, if you're rolling something out that you do not understand, that's usually a red flag. That's been my problem, to be blunt with kubernetes or an awful lot of the use cases that people effectively shove it into. What are you doing? What if the business problem you're trying to solve and you understand all of its different ways that it can fail in the ways that will help you succeed? In many cases, it is stupendous overkill for the scale of problem most people are throwing. It is not a multi cloud answer. It is not the way that everyone is going to be doing it or they'll make fun of you under resume. Remember, you just assume your own ego. In this sense, you need to deliver an outcome. You don't need to improve your own resume at the expense of your employer's business. One would hope, >>Well, Cory, always a pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for joining me on the cloud. Native insights. Thank you. Alright. Be sure to check out silicon angle dot com if you click on the cloud. There's a whole second for cloud Native insights on your host to minimum. And I look forward to hearing more from you and your cloud Native insights Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. >>This is a cube conversation. I'm stew Minuteman, and this is the Cube's virtual coverage of AWS Summit online. Happy to welcome back to the program to help give us some insight into what's happening. Aws last week. And today, that is Cory Quinn is the cloud economist at the Duck Bill Group. Cory, I know it's >>thank you. Always a >>pleasure to see you >>now it is always a pleasure to see me. Thank you for once again exhibiting remarkably poor judgment and inviting me back onto your program. >>Yeah, you know, Korea, you've been on the program a few times now, including in some of the AWS goes Ah, 18 San Francisco AWS, New York City. You know, reinvent we see you. But this is the first time we've had you on online. So give us a little bit about you know what? That impact of the global pandemic has been meaning to you and more importantly, what you've been seeing from our dear friends at AWS. >>Sure, the fact that not traveling anymore and spending almost all of my time at home means that I'm a lot closer to the edge when it comes to the content I put out because I no longer have to worry about someone punching me in the face. But other than that, from a business perspective, things tend to be continuing on much as they have before with four different customer concerns. The more interesting question from my side has been what is the effect this is having on people Because we're working from home remotely? It's not really a fair test of how well you can do remote. I've been doing it like this for years, and there's a There's a sense of existential dread that's hanging over people's at more so than usual, more so than right before the AWS re invent. You know, when you're wondering if you're about to have your entire business put out of business by an AWS. Now, it's just that sort of dread that never goes away because they won't deliver the keynote If you'll pardon me if using a metal >>Yeah, it's been really interesting to watch, you know, for you, of course. I mean, Amazon is, you know, a big player in the industry before this Amazon one that gets talked about a lot in the news. You know Amazon overall, You know, when this first pitch they announced they were hiring 1000 then they went through that faster than anyone could believe. You know, you think about having to hire a driver remotely. You know, my joke was you know, Alexa the screen. Everybody and I are everyone. But then they hired another 75,000. And it's not just the warehouse and the whole food people, because I've seen a number of people that I know getting hired by AWS do. So you know, you talk. It's all about the people that you know, the number one in the endemic people. How's Amazon doing? What feedback are you getting for? How they're doing? >>Well, I don't have too many internal sources that confirm or deny things of strategic import because it turns out that I'm generally not for those things. Who knew something I'm picking up on across the industry has been that if you're building a hyper scale cloud provider, you're not looking to next border. The investments you make today are going to be realized 3 to 5 years No one is currently predicting a dramatic economic impact community felt for a decade, based on the current question. So, yeah, AWS is still investing in people, which is always going to be the limiting constraint there still launching regions we have to launch within a month, and we're still seeing a definite acceleration of anything of the pace of innovation as a W was like. Now my perspective, that's both reassuring that some things never change. And, of course, the usual level of depression where oh, good, there's still more services to learn what they do. Learn how the names work, find ways to poke holes in their various presentational aspects. And, of course, try and keep the content relatively fresh. There's only so many times you could make the same joke for people. >>Yeah, absolutely. And of course, you bring up a really good point. You know, Amazon that they have a long strategic plan there. If they're building new data centers, they're building the power in perfect for these things. It's not something that they're going to change on a dime. They plan these things out far in advance, and AWS does, of course, have a global scope. Um, you know, I really, you know, wonder. You know, from an operational standpoint, are there any pressures on them? You wrote an article you know, relatively recently talking about one of the other public cloud providers that is by our customers. And we even have performance issues. AWS seems to be running through this dealing with acid. You know, I've had phone systems that have problems. You know, everybody as when they're working from home engine internally. Even if you've got a gig bandwidth When the fire neighborhood has Children on, you know, the classrooms online for video. There's pressures there. So you know where your teams from what I've seen, you know, AWS operationally is running well and, you know, keeping things all up and running Is am I missing anything? >>No. I mean the database is fond of saying there's no compression algorithm for experience, as I'm fond of saying, that's why they charge per gigabyte. But what that means is that they've gone through a lot of these growing pains and largest instructional stories in 2010 to 2012 EBS outages, causing a cascading failures as everyone saturates links as they roll from region to region or availability zone availability zone. They understand what those workloads look like and what those years are, and they've put in credible amount of engineering into solving these problems. I think that anyone who looks at this and doesn't see this happening is unfortunate place because we don't have to its approach utility level of reliability. You don't wonder every time you turn the faucet on whether water is going to, and we're now at a point of seeing that with AWS Resource. Now they're still going to be recurring issues. And there have been basically since this thing watched a particular instance. Size and family in a particular availability zone of a particular region may be constrained for a period of weeks, and that is something that we've seen across the board. But that has less to do with the fact that they didn't see this stuff coming in that appropriately and more to do with the fact that there's a lot of different options and customer demand is never going to be an exact thing we are seeing some customers dramatically turn off city and others sporadically scrapping capacity up. It comes down to what is the nature of this endemic on >>there. Yeah, well, this absolutely does. But you know, some of those promises of the cloud test I should be able to spin things down some things I should be able to turn off. And if I have to know shut down by business, I should be able to do that. Um, I'm curious what you've heard on changing demand out there. Worry. Um, you know, on the one hand, you know customers there re buying, they're getting reserved. They're making for that. They can, you know, optimize every dollar. But when something like this comes up and they need a major change, you know, are they stuck with a lot of capacity that they didn't necessarily want? >>Sometimes it comes down to a lot of interesting variables For me, the more interesting expression of this is when companies see demand falling off a cliff. As users, we're no longer using what their what they built out. But their infrastructure spend doesn't change. That tells me that it's not a particularly elastic infrastructure. And in fact, when people are building the elasticity into their applications, they always interpret that is scaling up rather than scaling down because the failure mode of not scaling up fast enough is you're dropping customer requests on the floor. The failure mode of not scaling down fast enough just means you're spending money. So when you see user demand for environment cut by 80% but the infrastructure cost remains constant or the infrastructure usage defending. That's a more interesting problem. And you're not gonna have a lot of success asking any cloud provider for adjustment when? Well, okay, you're suddenly not seeing the demand, but you're still remains the same. What is this based upon? You need to actually demonstrate a shortfall. First of wow, you know, we normally spend a $1,000,000 a month. Well, now we're spending 200 grand a month. Yeah, about that. And once you could do that, there are paths forward. I have not yet heard stories about, frankly, any of the big Three cloud providers, absolutely hanging customers out to dry in the cloud I have heard whispers about, for example, with G suite, where they're not willing to. And this this feels like a very dark way to go. But I'm going for it. Where will we just laid off 1/3 of our staff and we get a break on the annual licensing for those seats on G suite. And the answer is no. That feels like it stings and is more than a little capricious. >>Yeah, No, absolutely. You know, one of the things that the underbelly of fast is, you know? Oh, it should be elastic like cloud. But often times you're locked one or your contract, and if all of a sudden you find yourself with that meeting half the demand and you call them up, you know, Are they going to give you that break? So you know, Price and Corey, you know better >>than most. So all right, let me spoil it for you. Every provider is going to give you a break on this because this is a temporary aberration. As far as the way the world works, we're not going to start seeing Global 10 X every year, I hope. And when this crisis passes, people are going to remember how their vendors treated. And if it's well, we held your feet to the fire and made you live up to that contract that sticks with me, and it doesn't take too many stories like that, or people pulling lawsuits out of Acer to demonstrate that a company beat the crap out of them to say, Huh? Maybe that's not where I want to thank my sizeable cloud. Invest. >>Yeah. So, Corey, how about you know, there are there certain areas where I heard, you know, certain that maybe were slow rolling cloud and all of a sudden realize that when they're working from home, they plug and adjust their servers that are saying, Oh, jeez, maybe I need to hop on this. Then there's other services. You think VPN usage must be through the roof workspaces. So when first announced, you know, many years ago was a bit of a slow roll had been a growth ah, area for Amazon for the last couple of years. Are you hearing anything specific to new services or increase growth in certain services like I'm in? >>There are two patterns we're seeing. Of all. One is the traditional company you just described, where they build out a VPN that assumes some people will occasionally be working from home at a 5% rate versus the entire workforce 40 hours a week that that model that model is training every. Whereas if you go back the last 10 years or so and look at a bunch of small businesses that have started up or startups that have launched where everything they're using is a SAS service or a cloud service, then there is no VPN. I don't have a VPN. For example, the fact that I have a wireless network here in my house and I'm at dislocation. There's this I p address isn't white listed anywhere. The only benefit that this network has over others is that there's a printer plugged in here, and that's it. The identity model of Ioffe indicate to these services by the credentials of a user name and password by enchanting something, and they send an email that I click the link that that winds up handling the Asian night and there is no bottleneck in the same direction. I feel like this is going to be the death now for a lot of VM centric for tonight. >>Alright, Corey, want one of the other things about aws is they don't stop. And what I mean is, you know, you talked about them always being online. But you know every week there's a new announcement. It keeps feeding your newsletter, feeding your feet. You know everything going on there. How is number one? You know the announcement? Brains from AWS going and anything specific. You know, John Furrier was, you know, interest in, you know, Amazon Apolo, something that was released relatively recently. >>The problem with a lot of these new services that get released relatively recently is that it requires time to vet out how it works, how it doesn't work, how it should have wound up being implemented to solve your particular use case or, in my case, how they could have named it better. But you're not able to come up with those things off the top of your head the first time you see it because it's irresponsible at scale to deploy anything in production. You don't understand. It's failure cases right now, with everyone scrambling, most companies are not making significant investments in new capabilities. They are desperately trying to get their workforces online and stay afloat and adjust very rapidly changing. And oh, they built a new data store or something of that. Nature is not going to be this sort of thing that gets people super excited in most shops, that time will change. But I do feel a bit of it right now for a lot of these product teams who've been working away on these things for months or years. And now suddenly they're releasing something into a time when people don't I care about it enough to invest the effort that, yeah, you bring up a really good >>point. Corey, you know, there's certain things. If I was working on a project that was going to help me be more agile and be more flexible, I needed that yesterday. But I still need that today. Um, some other projects, you know, might take years to roll out a eyes. Technology that has been growing bring over the last couple of years were I O T solutions are a little bit more nascent. So is what you're thinking. It's a little bit more Stick to your knitting and the solutions and the products that you're leveraging today. And some of the, you know, more visionary and futuristic ones might be a little bit of a pause button for the next couple months. >>Exactly if you're looking at exploring something that isn't going to pay dividends for 18 months. Right now, the biggest question everyone has is what is the long term repercussion of this going to be? What is the year? What we're gonna look like in three years? Because that's where a lot of these planning horizons are stretching to. And the answer is, Look, when I wind up doing a pre recorded video or podcast where I talk about this stuff and it's not going to release for four days, I'm worried about saying something that was going to be eclipsed by the new site. I worry on my podcast reporting, for example, that I'm going to wind up saying something about that dynamic, and by the time it airs in two months, it's Oh, look at this guy. He's talking about the pandemic. He doesn't even mention the meteor, and that's the place right now where people are operating from, it becomes much more challenging to be able to adequately and intelligently address the long term. When you don't know what it's going to look like, >>Yeah, absolutely. For our viewers, when you hear my segment on Cory's ask and you wonder why we could talk about that it's because we missed that one week window that we're in right now When we're talking about murder Hornet, Not when we recorded it. Not when we released the really good point court. You know, Corey, you know, data is one of the most important things. You've done a lot about data portability, you know, all the costs involved. Cloud Amazon's trying to help people, you know, with, you know, bringing data together. You know, I said in one of the interviews with Andy Jassy a couple years ago, while customers were really the flywheel for AWS for a number of years, I think it is data that is that next flywheel. So I'm curious your thoughts as our, you know, enterprises think about their data, and AWS is role >>there incorrectly. If you want me to be blunt, there's an awful lot of movement, especially as we look at AI and machine learning to gather all of the data. I've been on cost optimization projects where Wow, that's an awful lot of data sitting there. And that s three bucket. Do you need it all? And I'm assured that yes, all of the sales transaction logs from 2012 are absolutely going to be a treasure trove of data just as soon as they figure out what to do with it, and they're spending our piles of money on >>it. But >>it's worse than that because it's not just that you have this data that's costing you money. That's almost a by product. There's risk to an awful lot of forms of data with regulation that continues to expand. Data can become a toxic asset in many respects. But there's this belief of never throw anything away that's not really ideal. Part of the value of a same data management strategy is making sure that you can remove all of the stuff that you don't absolutely need right now, with AI and ML being where they are, there's this movement or keep everything because we don't know what that's going to be useful for. Down the road, it's a double edged sword, and enterprises are at this point not looking at this through a lens of this thing could hurt me so much as they are. This thing could possibly benefit that the business in the future. >>Alright, so Cory, I I've really noticed over the last few months you've spent a bit more. I'm talking publicly about some of the other clouds that aren't AWS, though. You know what we are covering? AWS Summit online. Give us what you're hearing from Microsoft, Google and others. You know any strategies that Aaron you any you know, customer movement? That is worth >>sure. I think that we're seeing customers move in the way that they've always been moving. People made a bit of a kerfuffle about a block post I put out with the extremely Clickbait idle of Zoom chose Oracle Cloud over AWS. Maybe you should, too, and there were a few. There are few conclusions people drew understandably from that particular headline, which was, for example, the idea that AWS have lost a workload that was being moved from AWS to Oracle. Not true. It was net new. They do already has existing relationships with both Azure and AWS by their own admission. But the argument what what I took that particular change to be in my case was an illustration of something that's been bugging me for a while. If you look at AWS data transfer pricing publicly posted stop, which again, no one of this scale is going to pay. It is over 10 times more expensive than Oracle. Wow. And what that tells me is that I'm now sitting here in a position where I can make you made a good faith recommendation to choose Oracle's for cost reasons, which sounds nuts. But that's the world in which we live. It's a storytelling problem, far more than it is a technical shortcoming. But that was interpreted to mean that Oracle's on the rise. AWS is in decline. Zoom is a very strong AWS customer and has made public commitments. They will remain so right now. This is what we're seeing across the board. You see Zoom doing super well. They're not building out a whole lot of net new, either. What they're doing is building is just it's desperately trying to stay up under brushing unprecedented demand. That's where the value is coming from right now, clouds elasticity and they're not doing. You know, we're going to go ahead and figure out if we can build a new continuous deploy process or something that it makes on call a little bit less brutal. That's not what anyone's focusing on it here. Wow, this boat is sinking. If we don't stay up, grab a bucket, start bailing. And that is what they're doing. The fact that they're working with every cloud provider, it shouldn't come as a surprise. >>Yeah, well, it's interesting. I'm thinking about Zoom, and one of the things that I've been watching them for the last couple of everybody has is, you know, the daily updates that are happening Related security. Um, you know, I think back, you know, 67 years ago, Amazon had This is our security model. We're not changing it for anyone now. You know Amazon as a much more flexible and nuanced. So there are >>still in violent principles that Amazon will not and cannot shift. So, to be clear, they have different ways of interfacing with security in different ways of handling data classification. But there are rules that you knew are not changing. It's not well surprised. Now, suddenly, every Amazonian who works there can look through your private data that none of that is >>happening. I >>just want to very clear on >>that. Yeah, No, you're absolutely right. It's more security, you know, getting more engine even than ever. And it was already coming into 2020 before everything changed. What was one of the hot topic? Great. You know, I'm curious. You know, we're looking at a virtual event for AWS. Have you been to some of these? You know, you're getting burnt out from all of the online content. I'm sure everybody's getting tired of you. So are you getting tired of everyone else? >>I don't accept that anyone ever get tired of me. I'm a treasure and of the light. But as far as online events go, I think that people are getting an awful lot profoundly wrong about that. For example, I think that people focus on, well, I need to get the best video and the best microphone, and that's the thing that people are going to focus on, rather than maybe I should come up with something that someone wants to listen. People are also assuming that the same type of delivery and content works super well in a stage for 45 minutes is not going to work when people can tab over to something else and stop paying attention. You've got to be more dynamic. You've got to be able to grab people's, and I think that people are missing the forest for the trees. Here, you're just trying to convert existing format into something that will work online in the immediate short term. Everyone is super sympathetic. It's not going to last. People are going to get very tired of the same tired formatting ropes, and there's only so much content people are going to consume. You've got to stand out and you've got to make it compelling and interesting. I've been spending a lot of time trying to find ways to make that >>work. Yeah, I had a great conversation with John Troyer, he said. You know, we can learn something about what? Some of the late those Ah, you know, I think there's a new opportunity for you to say There's a house band, you know. You have a small child at home, divert Amerine there's your house band. You know you can have a lot of fun with >>Oh, absolutely, especially during a tantrum that's going to go super. Well, I'm just gonna watch one of her meltdowns about some various innocuous topic, and then I'm going to wind up having toddler meltdown the Amazon s three remix, and I'm sure we could wind up tying it back to something that is hilarious in the world of cloud. But I'm trying to pull off a little bit longer before I start actively exploiting her for Internet points. I mean, I'm going to absolutely do it. I just wanted to get a little color. >>All right. Well, Corey, want to give you the final word on AWS? The online events happening, you know, give our audience that what they should be looking at when it comes to their AWS estate, >>cool as usual attention to what's coming out. It's always been to have a low level awareness of what's coming out on stage. I don't feel you need to jump in and adopt any of it immediately. Focus on the things that matter to your business. Just because something new and shiny has announced on stage does not need a fit for you doesn't mean it's not, but remain critical. I tend not to be one of the early adopters in production, things that have a potential to wind up housing challenges, and I'm not saying, Oh, stay on the exact old stuff from 2010 and nothing newer, but there is a bit of a happy medium. Don't think that just because they released something that a you need to try it or B, it's even for, you know, AWS service is for everyone but every AWS services for someone. >>Alright, Well, Cory Quinn, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining with you joining us. >>Thank you. It was over the suffering. The slings and arrows Appreciate >>it. All right. Thank you for watching everyone. Lots of coverage of the cube at the AWS Summit online. Check out the cube dot net for all the offering. And thank you for what? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. >>This is a cube conversation >>live on. Welcome to the Special Cube Virtual coverage of AWS Summit Online. This is an event of virtual event by AWS. We're covering with the Virtual Cube his Amazon, so it would have no >>looking started. We started. Thank you. Right >>everyone, welcome to this Special Cube. Virtual coverage of the AWS Summit Virtual Online This is an event that Amazon normally has in person in San Francisco, but now it's virtual around the world. Seoul, Korea, in Tokyo, all over the world, in Asia Pacific and in North America, I'm John Furrier Dave Jones Stew Minimum. Let's do We're kicking off aws Virtual with the Cube Virtual. I'm in Palo Alto with the quarantine crew. You're in Massachusetts in Boston when the quarantine crew there still great to have you on to talk about AWS Virtual summit. >>Yeah, John, it's it's great to see you. Ah, it's been ah, you know, interesting times doing all these remote interviews A Z Many of us say I don't blame hotels, but I do miss the communities I do miss the hallway conversation. But great to see you, John. Love the Midnight Madness shirt. We >>want to thank Amazon for stepping up with some sponsorship for allow us to do the Virtual Cube alongside their virtual event because now it's a global community. It's all virtual. There are no boundaries. The Cube has no boundaries to We've got a great program. We have Cory Quinn coming up. Expect to hear from him last week in AWS is known for is a rising star in the community. Certainly Cube guest and also guest host and analyst for the Cube. We spent to hear all the latest from his big zoom post controversy to really what's going on in AWS around what services are hot. I know you're going to a great interview with him, but that's not what Amazon we're seeing a ton of activity, obviously, most recently last week was the jet, I think, which was an agency protest kind of confidential. Microsoft blew that up big time with a post by their worldwide comes person. Frank Shaw countered by Drew Heard Who's the coms globally for end of us and so a war of words is ensuing. This is again pointing to the cloud Native War that's going on with a jet I conference gets Jedi contract a $10 billion which is awards to Microsoft. This shows that the heat is on to do. This is a absolute bloodbath between AWS and Microsoft. We're seeing it play out now virtually with Amazon ai Large scale cloud. This is huge. This is this is another level. A def con one. Basically your thoughts. >>Yeah, John, you know, you've covered this really well and really impressing plot number one you talk about You know, this requirement When AWS launched the govcloud had the CIA as a client early on many years ago. It was the green light for many companies to go from. Wait. Is the club secure enough? Do well, good enough for the federal government in the US It's probably good enough for the enterprise. When Microsoft one jet I they didn't have all the certifications to meet what was in the contract? They had a ticking clock. Make sure that they could meet those security engagements. Aziz. Well, as you know what, one of the pieces the esports that move was working, made a partnership announced with Azure. We know the federal government uses Oracle quite a bit, though they can now run that in azure and not have the penalties from Oracle. So you know that many have said, you know Hey, AWS, why don't you kind of let that one go? You got federal business, but those ripple effect we understand from one contract kind of move things around. >>Well, my take on this is just the tip of the teapot. Either Microsoft's got something that we don't know where they're running scared. My predictions do is that the clock is gonna take out D o. D. Is going award the contract again to Microsoft because I don't think the d. O. D. Wants to change basically on the data that I'm getting from my reporting. And then, ultimately Amazon will keep this going in court because Microsoft has been deficient on winning the deal. That is by the judge and in government contracts. As you know, when you're deficient, you're ineligible. So, essentially on the tech specs, Microsoft failed to meet the criteria the contract and they're deficient. They still can't host top secret content even if they wanted to. This is going to be a game changer when if this comes out to be true, it will be a huge tech scandal. If it's true, then am I gonna have egg on their face? OK, so we passed. This speaks to the large scale problems that are having with Cove it. You're seeing Amazon. They're all working at home, but they still got to run the servers. They >>can do >>it. They got cloud native. You've got Dev ops. But for their customers to be people who are trying to do hybrid. What >>are you >>hearing in terms of the kinds of situations that people are doing? Are they still going to work with maths on our There's still data centers that need to be managed. What >>are >>you hearing in the tech world's do around Covad 19. And as the cloud becomes more apparent, it's obvious that if you're not cloud native, you're going to be on the wrong side of history. Here is pretty obvious. >>Yeah, well, absolutely. John. There there is a bit of a Elwyn behind cloud. Everything from you mentioned work from home. Everybody needs to be on their VPN. They need to access their service access their services where they are. If you've got a global workforce, if you thought that your infrastructure was going to be able to handle that, you might not be in for a WS is meeting that need. There's been some of the cloud providers that have had performance issues have had to prioritize which customers can get access to things AWS standing strong. They're meeting their customers and their answering the call of cloud. You know, we know that AWS puts a huge investment into their environment. If you compare an availability zone from AWS, you know, it is very, very sturdy. It's not just, you know, a you know, a small cluster on. And they say, Hey, we can run all over the place, you know, to be specific It's, you know, John Azure has been having some of those performance issues and has been from concerns. Corey actually wrote a really good article talking about that. It actually put a bad you on public cloud in general. But we know not all public cloud with the same, though, you know, Google has been doing quite well, you know. Managing the demand spike, though, has AWS. Microsoft has needed to respond a little bit. >>It's just mentioned Microsoft's outages. Microsoft actually got caught on eight K filing, which you just have to be going through, and they noticed that they said they had all this up. Time for the cloud. Turns out it wasn't the cloud. It was the teams product. They had to actually put a strike a line through it legally. So a lot of people getting called out, it doesn't matter. It's a crisis. I think that's not gonna be a core issue is gonna be what technology has been needed the most. And I got to ask you still, when was the last time you and I talked about virtual desktops? Because, hey, if you're working at home and you're not at your desk, you need might need some stuff on your desk. This >>is a real issue. >>I mean, it's a >>kind >>of a corner case in tech, but virtual desktops. If >>you're not >>at the office, you need to have that at home. This is a huge issue. It's been a surge >>in demand. Yeah, there were jokes in the community that you know, finally, it's the year of VD I, but desktop as a service. John is an area that took a little while to get going. You know, Dave Volante and I were just having about this. You and Dave interviewed me when Amazon released workspaces, and it was like, Ah, you know, Citrix is doing so well and VD I, you know, isn't the hotness anymore, But that's not service as grown. If you talk about desktop as a service compared to V i p. I is still, you know, a bit of a heavy lift. Even if you've got, you know, hyper converged infrastructure. Roll this out. It's a couple of months to put these whole solutions together. Now, if you have some of that in perspective, can you scale it and you build them up much faster? Yes, you can. But if you're starting to enable your workforce a little bit faster, desktop as a service is going to be faster. AWS has a strong solution with work base. Is it really is that enablement? And it's also putting pressure on the SAS providers. One. They need scale and do they need to be responsive that some of their customers need to scale up really fast and some of them dial things down. Always worry about some of these on track that the SAS providers, but you in. So you know, customers need to make sure they're being loud and clear with their providers. If you need help. If you need to adjust something, you know, push back on them because they should be responsive because we know that there is a broad impact on this. But it will not be a permanent impact, though you know, these are the times that companies need to work closely with customers because otherwise you will. You will either make a customer for life, or you will have somebody that will not be saying about you for a long >>while. Still, let's just quickly run through some of the highlights so far on the virtual conference virtual event. Aussie Amazon Pre announced last month the Windows Migration Service, which has been a big part of their business. They've been doing it for 11 years, so we're gonna have an interview with an AWS person to talk about that also app Flows announced as well as part of the virtual kind of private, you know, private checks. So you're seeing that right here. Large scale data lakes breaking down those silos, moving data from the cloud from the console into the top. Applicants like Salesforce is a big one. That was kind of pre announced. The big story here is the Kendra availability and the augmented AI availability. Among other things, this is the big story. This kind of shows the Amazon track record they pre announced at reinvent, trying to run as fast as they can to get it shipping the focus of AI. The focus of large scale capacity, whether it's building on top of GC, too. Server list. Lambda ai. All this is kind of coming together data, high capacity, operational throughput and added value. That seems to be the highlights. Your reaction? >>Yeah, John, You know, at flow is an interesting one. We were just talking about asp providers. An area that we've been spending a lot of time talking with. The system is you know, my data is all over the place, you know? Yes, there's my data centers public, but there's all of these past provides. So, you know, if I have data in service now, I have it in workday. I have a sales force you know, how do I have connectors there? How do I You're that How do I protect that, though? Amazon, you know, working with a broad ecosystem and helping to pull that together. Eyes definitely an interesting one. What? Kendra definitely been some good buzz in the ecosystem for a while. They're You know, the question is on natural language processing and a I, you know, where are the customers with these deployments? Because some of them, if they're a little bit more long term, Egypt might be the kind of projects that get put on pause rather than the ones that are critical for me to run the business today. >>And I just did a podcast with the VM ware ecosystem last week talking about which projects will be funded. Which ones won't. It brings up this new virtual work environment where, you know, some people are going to get paid and some people aren't. If you're not core to the enterprise, you're probably not going to get paid. If you're not getting a phone call to come into work, you're probably gonna get fired. So there will be project that will be cut and projects that will be funded certainly virtual events, which I want to talk to you about in a minute to applications that are driving revenue and or engagement around the new workforce. So the virtualization of business is happening now. We joke because we know server virtualization actually enabled the cloud. Right? So I think there's going to be a huge Cambrian explosion of applications. So I want to get your thoughts. The folks you've been talking to the past few months, what are you hearing in terms of those kinds of projects that people will be leaning into and funding versus ones they might put on hold? Have you heard anything? >>Yeah. Well, you know, John, it's interesting when you go back at its core, what is AWS and they want to enable built. So, you know, the last couple of years we've been talking about all of the new applications that will get built. That's not getting put on hold, Jones. You know it. What? I do not just to run the business but grow the business. I need the We'll have applications at the core of what we do. Data and applications, Really. Or what? Driving companies today. So that piece is so critically important and therefore AWS is a very strategic partner there. >>I'm saying the same things Do I think the common trend that I would just add to that would be I'm seeing companies looking at the covert crisis is the opportunity and frankly in some cases, an excuse to lay people off, and that's kind of you're seeing some of that. But the >>end of >>the day that people are resetting, reinventing and then putting new growth strategies together that still doesn't change business still needs to get done. So great point. It's to virtual events were here with the AWS summit. Normally run the show floor. The Cube. We're here with the Virtual Cube doing our virtual thing. It's been interesting to a lot of our events have converted to virtual. Some have been canceled, but most of them have been been running on the virtual. We've been plugged in, but the cube is evolving, and I want to get your thoughts on how you see the Cube evolving. I've been getting a lot of questions that came again on the VM Ware community podcast. How is the Cube morphed and I know that we've been working hard with a lot of our customers. How have we evolved? Because we're >>in the >>middle of this digital way, this virtualization away. The Cube is in there. We've been successful. That's been different use cases. Some have been embedded into the software. Amazon's got their own run a show. But events are more than just running the show content. >>Yeah, more John, >>more community behind us to your thoughts and how well Cube has evolved. And what are you seeing? >>I'm glad, John. You just mentioned community. So you know, you and I have talked many times on air that, you know, the Cube is much network in the community as it is a media company. So, you know, first of all, it's been so heartening over the last couple of months that we've been putting out. We're still getting some great feedback from the community. One of things I personally miss is, you know, when we step off the stage and you walk the hallway and you bump into people that know when they ask your questions were you know, they share some of the things that they're going through. That data that we always look for is something we still need. So I'm making sure that reach out to friends, you know, diving back into the social channels to make sure that we understand the pulse of what's going on. But you know, John, you know, our community has always been online, though a big piece of the Cube is relatively unchanged. Other than we're doing all the interviews, we have to deal with everyone's home systems in home network. Every once in a while you hear a dog barking in the background or, you know, a child running, but it actually humanized. So there's that opportunity or the communities to rally together. Some of my favorite interviews have been, you know, the open source communities that are gathering together toe work on common issues, a lot of them specifically for the global endemic, you know, And so there are some really good stories out there. I worry when you talk about companies that are think, Hey, this There have been so many job losses in this pandemic that it just is heartbreak. So, you know, we've loved when the tech community is helping to spur new opportunities, great new industries. I had a great interview that I did with our friends from a cloud guru, and they've seen about a 20 to 30% increase on people taking the online training. And one of the main things that they're taking training on is the one on one courses on AWS on Google and on Azure, as well as an interesting point. John, they said, Multi cloud is something that come up. So you know, 2020 we've been wondering. Is aws going to admit that multi cloud is a thing, or are they going to stick with their hybrid message and, you know, as their partners not talk about? It's >>been interesting on the virtual queue because we and Amazon's been a visionary and this leading Q B virtual with them. It's become a connective tissues to between the community. And if you think about how much money the companies they're saving by not running the physical events and with the layoffs, as you mentioned, I think that could be an opportunity for the Cube to be that connective tissue to bring people together. I think that's the mission that we hope will unfold, but ultimately, digital investments will probably go up from this. I'm seeing a lot of great conversion around. Okay, So the content, What does it mean to me? Is that my friend group are my friends involved? How do I learn? How do I discover? How do I connect? And I think the interesting thing about the Cube is we've seen that up front. And I think there's a positive sign of heads do around virtualization of the media and the community. And I think it's going to be economic opportunity. And I hope that we could help people find either jobs or ways to re engage and reconnect. So again, reinvents coming. You got VM World. All >>these big shows do They dropped so much cash. Can you answer? They >>put all that cash with the community. I think that's a viable scenario. >>Yeah. No, Absolutely. John. There there is, you know, big money and events, you know? Yes, there are less cost. They're also, you know, almost none of them are charging for people to attend, and very few of them are urging the bunker. So, you know, big shift in and how we have to look at these. It needs to be a real focus on content. I mean from our standpoint, John, from day one. We've been doing this a decade now. In the early days when it was a wing and a prayer on the technology, it was always about the content. And the best people help extract that signal from the noise. So, you know, some things have changed the mission overall days. >>And you know what? Amazon is being humble. They're saying we're figuring it out. Of course, we're psyched that we're there with the Virtual Cube students do. Thanks for spending the time kicking off this virtual coverage wrap up. Not >>as good as face to face. >>Love to be there on site. But I think it's easy to get guests used to in the virtual world. But we're gonna go to a hybrid as soon as it comes back to normal. Sounds like clouds to public hybrid virtual. There it is too. Thanks so much. Okay, that's the cube coverage for AWS Summit. Virtual online. That's the Cube virtual coverage. I'm sure. First Amendment, Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for the next segment. Yeah, >>yeah, yeah, yeah

(bright music) >> Narrator: From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the cube. We're at our Palo Alto studio today. And we're kind of taking advantage of this opportunity to reach out to the community, as we're going through this COVID crisis, to talk to leaders, get their tips and tricks and advice. As you know, everyone is going through this thing together. It's really a unique situation that everybody has a COVID story, where were you in March of 2020. So we're excited to have our next guest. He's Corey Williams. He's the VP of strategy and marketing for Idaptive. Cory, great to see you. >> Hey, great to see you. Thanks for having me, Jeff. >> Absolutely, I was just thinking the last time that we saw, was late February, it was February 25th. At the RSA conference, 40,000 people I think was the last big show, that I attended for sure, and kind of snuck in, before everything got shut down. It's just amazing, you know, kind of how quick this light switch moment happened to really force first, everybody home, and then you know, kind of all these collateral impacts of that in terms of digital transformation. >> Yeah, it is amazing. I remember that RSA show very well, shaking dozens of people's hands, eating from a buffet, sitting in a crowded room. It's amazing how quickly things have transformed, and how our mindset about, just about everything, but especially what we do for a living and how we interact with each other, had just changed overnight. >> Yeah and it's fascinating too, because when the stay at home, what started to come out, you know, nobody really had time to plan. And you know, and I would argue even if you had, I don't know, six months to plan, nine months to plan, a year to plan, for kind of this cutover, it would still have been a difficult situation. So just to be, you know, kind of thrown in and it's ready said go. Here we are, really unique challenge for people, but also for the infrastructure providers, also for the technology providers, in the space that you operate in, which is security, very different challenge and it wasn't, you know, we're going to plan and get everybody's VPN is all hooked up and configured and tested. It's like, don't come to the office tomorrow. >> Yeah and it literally happened that quickly. It wasn't a matter of being able to plan this, like a normal transition. But it was literally, today we're working in the office, tomorrow, please don't come in, we'll let you know when it's going to change. And I think it really did catch a lot of companies off guard, even those that were used to supporting a remote workforce at least in part. >> Yeah, because it's interesting people been talking about new way to work and work from home and this for a very long time. But you know, this was an incredible forcing function. So let's talk about you know, kind of what you do for the people that aren't familiar with Idaptive. Give us kind of the quick, the quick overview. >> Sure, Idaptive is what's called an identity and access management company. What we do is we make it easier for end users to get access to all their applications, and for organizations to provide that access in more secure manner. As you know, all these cloud applications and devices that we need to have access to, are typically just secured by a password and they all have different passwords, and those passwords often get reused and shared among different employees, and it creates a big problem, for not only for the security of the company, but even for the IT Helpdesk who's got to support account lockouts and password resets and so, Idaptive is one of the leaders in this space. >> As you talk about the password reset and I didn't think really kind of from the IT support side if you don't have a teenager hopefully close by in the room you know, that creates all kinds of challenges, but it's real and the password situation was bad before. Now as you said we've got all kinds of internal applications, you've got all types of access control to your inside stuff, you have all your cloud applications. A lot of times you said passwords are stored in queues or they're stored in caches, or they're stored in your Chrome browser. You guys have written extensively about passwords and getting kind of past passwords to better ways to authenticate people, whenever you can actually written quite a bit recently on blog posts. Talk about your kind of strategy and how you help customers kind of rethink access. >> Yeah, there's sort of two main strategies that I've been writing about. And then our company has been talking to our customers about. The first one we call Next-Gen Access, which is essentially a combination or layers of technology like Single sign-on, multi-factor authentication, provisioning, and analytics provide some user behavior and risk. All of that is intended to provide a more secure experience where we can put additional factors besides just a password, in front of the user, but only do it, when the risk is high, so that we can preserve the user experience. And so that we call a Next-gen access approach. But ultimately, the reason you want to do that is to arrive at a zero trust state of mind. That sort of approach allows you to say that, hey, I've verified every user, that is on my network. I know the device they're using is something that I trust and is in good shape. And I've limited their access to just what they need in order to do their job. >> Now, do you find that most people in this situation are still accessing via a VPN or some secure network or as most of it, you know, it's public internet access, and you're relying really on the applications and the access and the protocols and the two factor to make sure people can only get what they're supposed to get? >> Yeah, I think you kind of bring up a good point. The vast majority of businesses are what I've referred to hybrid enterprises, they still have on-premise applications, they still have their own applications that they build. But they also are in the process of adopting cloud applications like Office 365. And you know, all of the different kind of productivity apps, that are very popular. And so most companies are stuck in this situation where they can't simply be completely virtual company overnight. They still have to provide access to on-premise systems and applications in order to do their business. And so many of them just had the option of saying, okay, here's VPN access for everyone. But as as we know, VPN access is a very blunt instrument. First of all you have it has to be able to scale to a lot of users. Second of all, it gives you access to the whole network from a remote location, both of which are situations that are difficult, especially when you have to turn it on overnight. >> You're right. So you and one of the articles that I saw in getting ready for this, has some really specific as straightforward advice to people, to help them enable their remote workers. I wonder if you could go through some of those key points with us? >> Sure, I think, you know, when you think about remote access or having a remote workforce, you think about a few different things. One is be able to provide them easy kind of friction, free discovery of their applications and providing access. So, having something like a portal of all the applications that you're supposed to have access to whether they're on-premise or in the cloud, and have one click access to those protected in a way that is common to all those applications, using something like a second factor of authentication. That provides some of the immediate convenience of getting people up and productive, even if they're outside the network at home. The second thing we think about is, how do we give access to those on-premise applications? You can use VPN, it's quick, I can tell you that our customers are telling us two things. One is they didn't prepare for that much capacity. So their VPN connections don't scale. So they're having to ration the use of it, which limits the productivity. But also, they haven't necessarily rolled out multi-factor authentication to all of these users who don't typically use VPN. And so they are forced with either having to dial down, the security level, or to scramble and try to find a way to secure that access. So in my writings, we've been talking about providing alternatives to a VPN, something like an application gateway, which would can give you access to just the apps you need, without having to have full network access, and having those apps just be published through the gateway. >> So there's really some kind of creative ways to restructure the access beyond just simply having better access more secure access and as you said VPN and multi-factor cause in fact, you might not be able to implement those things just in the timely manner which you have, as we said, this was a light switch moment. >> Yeah I think definitely the it's something to think about in these emergency light switch moments, what is the easiest way and there's three parties involved. You've got the security folks who are concerned about maintaining a level of continuity with the access to their data. But you also have the end user and they have to do their job. It has to be easy enough for them to be able to do, without having to have a lot of special training. And let's not forget the IT Helpdesk, either. They are getting overwhelmed with requests for about basic technology use and about getting access to the basic resources. The last thing you want to do is pile on a whole bunch of new lockouts. And, you know, barriers have been put in front of users, that can overwhelm them. So you kind of have to think about all three parties, when you're developing a solution for remote workforce. >> All right, and I presume the bad guys are not taking holiday, seeing this opportunity as again, we're constantly talking about this increasing attack surface. It just got a whole lot bigger for the bad guys. >> It certainly did. I mean, if you think about the attack surface, it used to be that if they could get past your network barrier, then they were in. And so he was very concentrated around securing the network. As you start adopting more mobile and cloud applications, now your attack surface becomes all the resources are out in the cloud. Now, when you take all of your workers and disperse them to home, each one of their own systems and networks becomes an extension of that attack surface. And so anything you can do to narrow and lessen the attack surface by making sure you have good user verification, device validation, and other layers of intelligence to help you monitor that access. It reduces the scope to everyone on Earth, from any device on Earth, to just the people that you you trust and if identified, and that's why we talked to our our customers about is putting these layers in that can balance that security, but also provide a more friction free user experience and that's the real trick. >> All right, so I'm just curious to get your take you've been in the business for a long time. And kind of the state of passwords, you know, is this just something we're stuck with forever? Do you see in the not too distant future? Or medium future? Passwords going away? I mean, we've got biometric stuff now, you can touch your phone, you can read your iris, but those things can be spoofed as well. Where do you see, you know, kind of the passwords evolving and what's going to take its place? >> You know, it's a little bit like the clothes in the back of my closet, you can never quite get rid of everything. And I think passwords are will always be with us in some form, because they're baked into technology that's been around forever. As a side note, you've probably heard about these IRS checks going out. And there being problems in some states because these stimulus checks are dependent on systems that were built 50 years ago. And so technology kind of lives forever in some form. So we can't necessarily get rid of passwords, but there are two things we can do, one is we can never depend on passwords alone to secure access, we can layer on, multi-factor authentication and artificial intelligence to determine risk level and put an additional set of factors in front of the user. But we can also develop new applications and technologies, with more of what is being known as a password list experience, which is sort of an ideal thing. And we have some experience with modern technology like facial recognition on our iPhone or a fingerprint on our PC. Those types of experiences can be built in and before COVID happened, I'd say that one of the big trends of 2020 was this idea of password list access. And we have actually recently announced some of our own password capabilities, but it was a hot trending topic. And I think will continue to be because not only is it a more secure experience, but it's also much easier for end users and they would prefer to have a one click access rather than having to remember a complex string that they have changed in 90 days. >> I was going to say, do you think it's an accelerant? Or in terms of having this alternative access method? Or is it a pullback because people are hunkering down, but it sounds on those two attributes, that it's a better thing. >> I think definitely in >> The more secure that seems pretty straightforward. >> Yes, I think definitely, in the medium and long term, this will accelerate the trend. In the short term, yes. Everything is being focused on just enabling those remote users. There was a actually a recent survey done by Mayfield, with their collection of CSOs and CTOs, asking them what the top priorities were in the short term. And of course, the number one priority for IT leaders is enabling that remote workforce. But number two in the short term is actually security enabling that says not only enabling users to work from home productively, but making sure that security is keeping track. So I don't think they've lost sight even in the short term, although I think they're focused on very tactical goals related to scaling out the solutions and supporting their end users. In the medium term and in the long term, this is going to have lasting effects. We know that the remote workforce trend was accelerated and there's no turning back. Companies are going to be more remote, they're going to be more comfortable with remote models. And so having better stronger, better experiences and stronger authentication experiences will be part of how we do things going forward. >> Well, Cory, in everywhere we go, security has to get baked into everything. So it's no longer a bolt in is, as you well know, and so it's not surprising that that's right in there with supporting those remote people cause they got access to the keys to the kingdom. You just can't let that get out there. So give you the final word once we come out of COVID and in terms of, you know, looking directly at what that's driving in terms of priorities. What are some of the other priorities that you hope to get back to, once we kind of get through this period? >> Well, I mean, I think clearly, we're seeing the effect on certain industries like travel and hospitality and others, we certainly and we tell,, we certainly hope that those businesses are able to come back strong. So those are some of the things we're looking forward to. But we know a lot of our customers are really wanting to not just respond to the current activities that are happening, but they want to build their businesses. They want to build better user experiences, they want to put out new digital experiences. We know from the survey as well, from Mayfield that increasing acceleration towards adopting cloud, and towards the digital transformation of user and business processes is going to be key. And so that's what we see the future is not just in providing security to prevent the bad guy, but to enable these new digital experiences and to accelerate these trends like move to cloud, identity and access management is fundamental to all of those efforts. And we see that as being a very positive thing. And hopefully this will end up serving as a catalyst to spurred and acceleration of those adoptions. >> Well, I think there's no doubt about it. I mean, we're not going to go back and the longer this thing goes on, the more new habits are formed, and people aren't just going to want to go back to the old ways. So I think there's no doubt about it. And I really appreciate you sharing your insights. Again, Cory has written a ton of stuff. There's blogs all over the place, do a quick search on Cory Williams with an E, and you'll find some of his blog posts and thanks for taking a few minutes with us here today, Cory. >> You bet, thank you, Jeff. >> All right, he's Corey, I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. We're in our Palo Alto studios. Stay safe out there, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>from the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >>Hello, everyone. And welcome to this breaking analysis. We're here to assess the VM Ware v Sphere seven announcement, which is the general availability of so called Project Pacific. VM Ware has called this the biggest change to V sphere in the last 10 years. Now Project Specific Pacific supports kubernetes and natively in VM Ware environments. Why is this important? This is critical for multi and hybrid cloud because Kubernetes and its surrounding orchestration enable application portability and management. Yeah, as we've been reporting, VM Ware is one of the big players eyeing multi cloud, along with a crowded field of aspirants that include IBM with Red hat, Microsoft, Cisco, Google and a host of specialists in the ecosystem. Like how she and rancher as well play. Some players have focused in their respective stack swim lanes like security and data protection, storage, networking, etcetera. And with me to dig into this announcement is stew. Minutemen's Do is a senior analyst at Wiki Bond and co host of The Cube is too good to see you and let's get into it great to talk about this state. Okay, so the Sphere seven, what is being announced? And why is it relevant? >>Yes. So, David, as you said in the open, this is the general availability of what they talked about at VM World 2019 as Project Pacific. So it really is integrating kubernetes into V sphere. The VM ware, of course, will position this is that they're now enabling, you know, the 90% of the data centers around the world that have VM ware. Hey, your kubernetes enabled. Congratulations. You're cloud native. Everything like that. Only being a little facetious here. But this is very important. How do we get from where we were to live in this more cloud? Native environments. So containers in general and kubernetes specifically are being a first class citizen. There's a lot of work, Dave, and my understanding this has been going on for a number of years. You know, it's not like they just started working at this six months ago. A overhaul to how this works. Because it's not just we're going to stick a couple of containers on top of, you know, the guest operating system in the virtual machine. But there is a supervisor cluster for kubernetes at the hyper visor level. And there's a lot of, you know, in the weeds things that we're all trying to understand and figure out because you've got you know, we've got a hyper visor and you've got VM. And now you've got the containers and kubernetes on. Some of them are living in my data center. Some VM ware, of course, lives on multiple clouds like the VM ware on AWS. Solutions of this will go there on and, you know, how do I manage that? How does this impact my operations? You know, how did this change my application portfolio? Because, you know, the early value proposition for VM Ware always was. Hey, you're gonna put VM ware on there. You don't need to touch your applications. Everything runs like it did before you were running windows APS on a physical server. You move into virtual. It's all great. There's a lot of nuance and complexity. So when VM Ware says this is the biggest change in a decade probably is, I think back to you know, I remember when the fx 2.0, rolled out in V motion really changed the landscape. That was big V balls. Move to really ah storage. To really understand that architecture and really fix storage was was a huge undertaking that took many years. This this definitely stacks up with some of those previous changes to really change the way that we think about VM Ware. I think the advertising you have even seen from being where some places is don't think of them as VM ware their cloud where our container ware with like because vm zehr still there. But VM Ware is much more than VMS today, >>so this feels like it's bm were trying to maintain its relevance in a cloud native world and really solidify its because, let's face it, VM Ware is a platform that Pat Gelsinger's has ride. The Waves tried many times in many angles to try to ride the cloud wave, and it's finally settled on the partnerships with AWS specifically. But others on DSO really Is this their attempt to become cloud native, not get left behind and be cloud naive? His many say >>Yeah, great question, David. Absolutely. There's the question as to you know what's happening with my applications, you know lots of customers. They say, Well, I'm just going to satisfy the environments. Watched the huge growth of companies like service now workday. Those applications, well, customers don't even know what they live on. Do they live on virtualization? Environment is a containers I don't need to worry about because SAS takes care of that. If I'm building modern applications, well, I'm probably not starting with VMS. Containers are the way that most people are doing that. Or they might even be going serverless now if we take these environments. So how does VM ware make sure that they have the broadest application support? Kubernetes really won the container orchestration wars on. And this is a way that VM ware now can enable customers to move down that path to modernize their environments on. And what they wanna have is really some consistency between what's happening in the cloud and happening in the environments that they control >>themselves. Vm ware saying that containers in our first class citizen within v sphere what does that mean? Why is that important? First of all, are they really And what does that mean? And why is that important? >>Yes. So, Dave, my understanding is, you know, absolutely. It's their, You know, the nuances that you will put there is. You know, we're not just running bare metal servers with Lennox and running containers on top of it. It is. You're still sitting on top of the hyper visors. One of the things I'm trying to understand when you dig down is you know what? The device driver level VM ware always looked a little bit like Linux. But the people that use it and operate it, they're not letting people Dave, these, you know, the OS. The number one os that always ran on VM ware was Windows and the traditional applications that ran there. So when we talk about containers and we're enabling that in a kubernetes environment, there are some questions about how do we make sure that my applications get certified? Dave, you got a lot of history knowing things like s ap and Oracle. I need to make sure that we've tested everything in this works. This is not what we were running traditionally in VM ware and VM ware. Just thanks. Hey, v Sphere seven, turn the crank. Everything certified Well, I would tell customers make sure you understand that your application has been tested, that your Eyes V has certified this environment because this is definitely, as VM Ware says, a huge architectural change. So therefore, there's some ripple effects to make sure that what I'm doing in this environment stays fully supported. Of course, I'm sure VM Ware is working with their huge ecosystem to make sure that all the pieces or environment you mentioned things like data protection. We absolutely know that VM Ware is making sure the day one the data protection plugs in and supported in these environments when you're using the kind of kubernetes persona or containers solutions in V sphere. >>Well, this brings me to my next question. I mean, we were talking to Bernard Golden the other day and he was saying, You know, Kubernetes is necessary for multi cloud, but it's insufficient. And so this seems to me to be a first step and, as I say, VM ware maintaining and growing its relevance. But there's gonna be a roadmap here that goes beyond just containers and portability. There's other management factors you mentioned security of enabling the ecosystem to plug in. So maybe talk about that a little bit in terms of what's necessary to really build this out over the next >>decade. And actually, it's a great point. So, first of all, you know, V. Sphere, of course, is the core of VM Ware's business. But there's only a piece of the overall portfolio said this lives in. I believe they would consider this part of what they call their Tansu family. Tando is their cloud native overarching piece of it, and one of the updates is their product hands admission control. Which of the existing product really came out of the Hep D Oh acquisition is how we can really manage any kubernetes anywhere, and this is pure software. Dave. I'm sure you saw the most recent earnings announcement from VM Ware, and you know what's going sass. What's going subscription? VM Ware is trying to build out some of their software portfolio that that isn't kind of the more traditional shrink wrap software, so Tan Xue can manage any kubernetes environment. So, of course, day one Hey, obviously or seven, it's a kubernetes distribution. Absolutely. It's going to manage this environment and but also if I've got Cooper days from azure kubernetes from Amazon communities from other environment. Tanja can manage across all of those environments. So when when you're what VM Ware has always done. If you think back in the early days of virtualization, I had a lot of different servers. How do I manage across those environments? Well, VM ware was a layer that lived across them. VM Ware is trying to do the same thing in the cloud. Talk about multi cloud. And how do I manage that? How do we get value across them? Well, there's certain pieces that you know VM Ware is looking to enable with their management software to go across them. But there are a lot of other companies, you know, Amazon Google actually not Amazon yet for multi cloud. But Microsoft and Google absolutely spent a lot of time talking about that in the last year. A swell as you mentioned. Companies like Rancher and Hashi Corp absolutely play across What Lots of these multi cloud. Well, >>let's talk about the competition. Who do you see is the number one competitors >>Well, so the number one competitor absolutely has to be red hat, Dave. So you know, when I've been in the kubernetes ecosystem for a number of years for many years. When I talk to practitioners, the number one, you know what kubernetes you're using? Well, the answer for many years was, Well, I'm grabbing it, you know, the open source and I'm building my own stack. And the reason customers did that was because there wasn't necessarily maturity, and this was kind of leading edge, bleeding edge customers in this space. The number two besides build my own was Red Hat was because I'm a red hat customer, a lot of Lennox tooling the way of building things the way my application developers do. Things fit in that environment. And therefore, that's why Red Hat has over 2000 open shift customers leading distribution for Kubernetes. And you know, this seems purely directly targeted at that market. That red hat did you know it was a big reason why IBM spent $34 billion on the Red Hat acquisition is to go after this multi cloud opportunity. So you know, absolutely this shot across the bow because Red Hat is a partner of VM Ware's, but absolutely is also a competitive >>Well, Maritz told me years ago that's true. We're with everybody and you could see that playing out. What if you look at what VM Ware could do and some of their options if they gave it away, that would really be a shot across the bow at open shift, wouldn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely, Dave, because kubernetes is not free if you're enabling kubernetes on my Google environment, I, you know, just within the last week's awesome things that were like, Okay, wait. If you're testing an environment, yes, it is free. But, you know, started talking about the hourly charges for the management layer of kubernetes. So you know kubernetes again. A color friend, Cory Quinn. Communities absolutely is not free, and he will give you an earful and his thoughts on it s o in Amazon or Google. And absolutely, Dave, it's an important revenue stream for red hat. So if I'm vm ware and you know, maybe for some period of time, you make it a line item, it's part of my l. A. You know, a good thing for customers to look out for is when you're renegotiating your l a toe, understand? If you're going to use this, what is the impact? Because absolutely, you know, from a financial standpoint, you know, Pat Gelsinger on the VM Ware team has been doing a lot of acquisitions. Many of those Dave have been targeted at this space. You know, not to step Geo, but a bit NAMI. And even the pivotal acquisition all fit in this environment. So they've spent billions of dollars. It shouldn't be a net zero revenue to the top line of what VM Ware is doing in the space. >>So that would be an issue from Wall Street's perspective. But at the same time, it's again, they're playing the long game here. Do we have any pricing data at this point? >>So I still have not gotten clear data as to how they're doing pricing now. >>Okay, Um, and others that are in there and in the mix. We talked about Red Hat. Certainly Microsoft is in there with Arc. I've mentioned many times Cisco coming at this from a networking perspective. But who else do you see and then Antos with Google? >>Yeah. And you know, Dave, all the companies we're talking about here, you know, Pat Gelsinger has had to leverage his intel experience to how to balance that line between a partner with everybody but slowly competing against everybody. So, you know, we've spent many hours talking about the VM Ware Amazon relationship. Amazon does not admit the multi cloud a solution yet and does not have a management tool for supporting all of the kubernetes environment. But absolutely Microsoft and Google do. Cisco has strong partnerships with all the cloud environment and is doing that hybrid solution and Dave Justice nothingto expand on a little bit there. If you talk about V sphere, you say, Okay, Visa or seven trolling out Well, how long will it take most of the customer base to roll to this environment? There will be some that absolutely want to take advantage of kubernetes and will go there. But we know that is typically a multi year process to get most of the install base over onto this. And if you extend that out to where VM Ware is putting their solution into cloud environments, there's that tension between, you know, Is there a match actually, between what I have in my data center and what is in the managed environment managed by VM Ware and Amazon, or manage for to support some of the other cloud environment. So the positioning always is that you're going to do VM Ware everywhere, and therefore it's going to be consistent everywhere. Well, the devil's in the details because I have control on what's in my data center, and I might have a little bit less control to some of those managed services that I'm consuming. So absolutely something to keep a close eye on. And not just for VM, where everybody is having these concerns. Even if you talk about the native kubernetes distributions, most of the kubernetes services from the cloud providers are not, you know, immediately on the latest revision of kubernetes, >>right, So Okay, well, let's let's talk about that. Remember when open Stack first came out? It was a Hail Mary against Amazon. Yeah, well, the new Hail Mary and looks like it has more teeth is kubernetes right, because it allows portability and and and of course, you know Amazon doesn't publicly say this, but it's not. That's not good for Amazon. If you're reporting things, applications, moving things around, moving them out of the Amazon cloud, and that makes it easier. Of course, Amazon does support kubernetes right, But you've got >>alternatives. So, David, it's fascinating. So I've talked to many practitioners that have deployed kubernetes and one of the top reasons that they say that why they're using Kubernetes is so they have options with the cloud. When you also ask them what cloud they're running, they're running Amazon. Did they have planned to move off of it? Well, probably not. I had a great customer that I didn't interview with that one of the Cube con shows, and they actually started out with Azure just because it was a little further head with kubernetes and then for the services they wanted. They ended up moving to AWS and Dave. It's not a click a button and you move from one kubernetes to another. You need toe match up and say, Okay, here's the five or six services I'm using. What are the equivalent? What changes do I need to make? Multi cloud is not simple. Today, I mentioned Hashi Corp is one of those companies that help people across these environments. If you have haji solution and you're managing across multiple clouds, you look in the code and you understand that there's a lot of difference between those different clouds, and they simplify that. But don't eliminate it. Just it is not. There is not a way today. This is not a utility when you talk about the public cloud. So you know Kubernetes absolutely is existentially a little bit of a threat to Amazon but Amazon still going strong in that space. And you know that the majority of customers that have deployed kubernetes in the public cloud are doing it on Amazon just because of their position in the marketplace and what they're. >>So let's double click on that. So Jassy, an exclusive interview with John Furrier before last year's re invent, said, Look, we understand there's a lot of reasons why people might choose multiple clouds, you know, go through them in a developer preference. And I think I think, you know, people want o optionality and reduce lock in potentially. But I've always said, by the way, just as an aside, that that the risk of lock in it is far down on the list relative to business value, people will choose business value over over, you know, no lock in every time. About 15% of the customers you might not agree. Nonetheless, Jassy claimed that typically when you get into a multiple cloud environment, he didn't use the term multi cloud that it's it's not a 50 50. It's a premier primary cloud supplier. So might be 70 30 or 80 20 or even 90 10. But it's really that kind of, you know, imbalance. First of all, do you see that? And then what does that mean for how they approach of this space? Multi cloud and in particular. >>So I'm sorry. You're asking how Amazon should approach the space. And you've said that I don't think they'll >>eventually enter this market place. >>Yeah, you know, absolutely, Dave. You know, first of all, in general, yes, I do agree. It is not. There are certain financial companies that, you know, have always chosen two of everything. Because for regulation and you know certain we need to protect ourselves. We're gonna have to suppliers. We're going to keep them as even as possible. But that is a corner case. Most customers I have a primary cloud. That's what I'm doing. That what I t tries to get everybody on and you need to have Is there a reason why you want to use a secondary or tertiary cloud because there's a service that they need. Of course, Google. You often run it. It's like, Oh, well, there's certain data services that they're doing well And, of course, the business productivity solutions that Microsoft's doing where the relationship with Oracle that are driving people towards Microsoft. But just as we saw Amazon soften on their hybrid solutions, we spent a lot of time at re invent talking about all the various hybrid solutions. Um, since their customers are going to have multiple clouds on and even you take most of their customers that have M and a involved you buy another company, they might be using another cloud. As Microsoft's position in the marketplace has grown, you would expect that Amazon would have not just migration services but management services to match what customers need, especially in this kubernetes environment, seems that it seems a natural fit for them. It's possible they might just leverage, you know, partnerships with red hat VM ware, you know, in some of the other players for the time being. But if the market gets big enough and customers are asking for it, that's usually when Amazon response >>So let's let's wrap with what this means to the customer. And I've said that last decade really multi cloud was a symptom of multi vendor and not so much of the strategy that's changing. You know, clearly, jokes CIOs are being called in to clean up the crime scene on do you know, put in edicts corporate edicts around security and governance and compliance and so forth. So it started to become a complicated situation for a lot of companies. We've said that multi cloud is gonna it's gonna be they're going. People are going to put the right war load and the right cloud, etcetera, and this advantages to certain clouds. But what should customers be thinking specifically as it relates to v. Sphere seven? >>Yes. So, Dave, the biggest thing I would say that people need to look at it is that understanding in your organization that that boundary and line between infrastructure and application people have often looked at you looked at the ascendancy of VM Ware, Andi V. M's and then what's happening with cloud and containers. And we think of it from an infrastructure standpoint that I'm just changing the underlying pieces. This is where it lives and where I put things. But the really important thing is it's about my data and my applications, Dave. So if I'm moving an application to a new environment, how do I take advantage of it? You know, we don't just move it to a new environment and run it the same way we were doing it. I need to take advantage of those new environments. Kubernetes is involved in infrastructure, but the real piece is how I have my application, my developers, my app. Dev's working on this environment and therefore it might be that if VM Ware's the right environment, I'm doing a lot of it that the development team says, Hey, I need you to give me a pool and provisioned this for me and I can have my sandbox where I can move really fast. But VM Ware helped initially customers when they went from physical to virtual, move faster. From an infrastructure standpoint, what it needs to do to really enable this environment is help me move faster on the application side. And that's a big gap from VM. Ware's history is where the pivotal people and hefty O people and bit NAMI and all the new people are helping along to help that whole cloud native team. But that is a big shift from customers. So for this to be successful, it's not just, oh, the virtualization admin. He upgraded to the new thing. He made some changes and said, Okay, hey, I can give you a kubernetes cluster when you need it. It's really understanding what's going to happen on the application side in a lot of that is going to be very similar to what you're doing in cloud environments. And I think this is Dave often where your customers, they say, Oh, well, I did that cloud and it was too expensive and it was too hard, and I repatriated. Everything else is, well, you probably didn't plan properly and you didn't understand what you're getting yourself into. And you jumped into the deep end of the pool and oh, wait, I forgot how to learn how to swim. So you know, that is where we are. You know, Dave, you know the technology parts. Always the easiest piece. It's getting all of the organizational and political things sorted out. And you know the developer we know how important that is, we're seeing. It's great to see VM Ware pushing faster in this environment. Kudos to them for how fast they moved. Project Pacific to G. A. That is really impressive to see and can't wait to hear the customers roll out because if this is successful, we should be hearing great transformation stories from customers as to how this is enabling their business, enabling them to move faster on. You know, that has been what, one of the favorite stories that I've been telling with customers on the Cube last couple of years. >>The vast majority of VM Ware's business, of course, is on print, and essentially they're doing here is enabling developers in their customer base and the half a 1,000,000 customers to really develop in a cloud native manner. The question is, you know, from a ah, from a cultural standpoint, is that actually gonna happen? Or the developers gonna reject the organ and say, No, I want to develop in AWS or Microsoft in the cloud. I think VM Ware would say, We're trying to embrace no matter where they want to develop, but they're still going to be. That's interesting organizational tension or developer attention in terms of what their primary choices is. They're not. >>Yeah, Dave, Absolutely. We've been saying for years. That cloud is not a location. It is an operating model. So this is helping to enable that operating model more in the data center. There's still questions and concerns, of course around, you know, consumption on demand versus you know, whether whether you've bought the entire thing as more and more services become available in the public cloud, are those actually enabled to be able to be used, you know, in my data center hosted environment. So you know, this story is not completed, but we're definitely ready. I believe we're saying it's the multi clouds Chapter three of what? We've been watching >>you and you're seeing a major tam expansion yet again from VM Ware that started with the NSX. And then, of course, went in tow networking and storage. And now they've got a cloud security division. We're talking about the the cloud native capabilities here and and on and on, it goes to thanks for helping us break this VC seven announcement down and good job fixed. All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for stew Minimum. We'll see you next time on the Cube. >>Yeah,

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone as theCUBE live covers Las Vegas day three, we're wrapping up the show for AWS re:Invent. I'm John Furrier, extracting the signal from the noise. I want to thank Intel for sponsoring this amazing set, two sets here. We had double barrel, cube action all week. Thanks to Intel, we wouldn't be able to do it and bring the great content to viewers today. Thank them for supporting our mission. We're going to wrap up the show with Stu Miniman, Corey Quinn, two experts who are scouring the floor. Doing interviews, talking to everybody, and myself. Cory, good to see you. >> It is great to see me, John, thank you. >> You're awesome, got quite a following these days on your work, your business is growing, congratulations. >> Corey: Thank you >> But, I saw you running around at the Wynn, you're definitely working hard. So, what have you learning, what are you seeing, what's the- what's your analysis of the show holistically? >> I think that Amazon, specifically AWS's product strategy, remains what it has been, and that is simply "yes." There is remarkably little that seems that it is beyond something that AWS would take an interest in. If you'd asked me to predict what they would have released at midnight madness, I would have had several guesses, none of which would have been "Well it's a piano keyboard thing that also does Machine Learning." And my follow up would be, well of course it is "Does it also make fries?" And at this point, well sure, it makes it makes a certain twisted sort of sense. Maybe it's too many days of re:Invent in a row, maybe it's just at this point a certain level of cynicism that I can no longer escape. But, at this point, very little surprises me. But it seemed to be a very AWS event through and through. >> The volume and velocity of announcements was at the same level as last year. No real change there. >> Yes, I am saddened to report that the re:Invent house band is still there and has not yet been put to sleep to spare them and ourselves further misery but, we'll see. >> You didn't like the band? >> I think the band is slightly hokey. I would change the lyrics of some of the things that their singing to at least be humorous. If you're going to go corny, go all in. >> The guy did nail the Queen notes. >> Oh, they're terrific performers it has nothing to do with that. But it is 8 O'clock in the morning. So, one has questions. >> I think the keynote could have been a sleeper, without the band, don't you think? >> I do maintain that I want an Alexa skill That is just Andy Jassy reading rock lyrics. I would pay serious money for that. >> Well you did put some thought in. Stu, your thoughts on the show, wrap it up man, what's going on? >> Look I mean, the show as Dave Vallente says "Amazon always delivers with the shock and awe." You know, broadest and deepest, so many pieces here. I took a selfie with many people and the biggest celebrity of the show, AWS Outpost. The rack, it's over in the corner there, and people asking me about all the gear inside. I said "You should stop asking about that because you will never touch it, only AWS will." So put a curtain around it, it's managed as a service. And that's what I think people are still trying to understand. We've been talking about cloud for what, fifteen years now? But Amazon's positioning on cloud is still different than everyone else's. When I think back to some of the waves, there's that buzz word. And there's one or two that really architecturally are different and deliver, and Amazon laid out their strategy even more, and, through the geeky pieces, and transformation was the theme. Hey Corey, talking transformation I met you at this show a few years ago, and your special skill back then was wearing a three piece suit. >> Indeed. The problem is is when you start talking about cloud billing and cloud accounting and that sort of thing, in a three piece suit, you look like you're a CPA that got lost somewhere. So, my brand and personal sartorial preferences have continued to evolve. When you're talking about Outpost though, you're right. It's the clear star of the show, and I love that product so much. Not because of what they say about it, but because of the subtext that comes along with that product. Namely that "Look, you're going to run things on-prem, and the problem of course is that you suck at managing hardware. Now, this is going to take a lot of that away. You're still going to suck at providing connectivity and power, and AWS does not have anything to announce around those at this time, but we're slowly, delicately, prying your grubby little hands off of the hands on hardware server hugger mentality and dragging you, lovingly, kickingly, and screamingly, into the best technology, lets say 2012 has to offer at least." It's modern-ish. >> So, are cloud buyers naive, if they are just going to be buying these solutions from other clouds or prepackaged solutions. Is that really cloud or do they care? I mean, what's the difference between cloud native and cloud naive? What's your perspective? Besides the letter T. >> Of course. I think that there's a definite spectrum on how cloudy something can be. If you want to just take everything running in your existing data center, virtualize it, and then just put that into an AWS region, okay great. There are ways to do that and most of them have a VMware price tag tied to them, but okay, is that cloud? Ish. Is it the best approach? Maybe. I think it's hard to bucket all customers into one. Everyone's in a different place on their journey. And I guess architecture shaming, it's "Oh, what are you going to do with that piece of crap?" Like about eight billion dollars of revenue a year, why do you ask?" There are valid reasons to do a lot of different things and be at different points on your journey. I like seeing Twitter for pets evolve and do the latest and greatest thing. I don't like seeing for example, my bank doing the exact same thing. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, it's beauty of the cloud is in the eye of the beholder. I mean what he's saying is and what Jassy's saying is "Look it, you can't just take, you know everyone and put them into a bucket, it's what you do with it." >> Yeah. It really comes back to what you want to do. >> I mean, John, I go back to, you know, things Werner said on the Keynote stage, everything fails all the time. The difference between the old architecture, which was "I'm going to do everything I can and I'm going to throw money and hardware at things to make it enterprise." Well, the new enterprise needs to look like what the Hyperscalers have been doing, which is, you build for software. Which means that everything fails all the time. That, our friendly chaos monkey will come in here and it doesn't matter what piece goes down, the application needs to stay up running. It's about the application, you know, application developers at the center of what's going on here, and you know, that modernization. I really liked Andy Jassy's answer, to what I asked him about, is if we go through this cloud Adoption, we talk about simplification and people want to buy over solutions but the successful company of the future will be builders. >> I got to ask you guys this question. I talked to a friend, and yes I have friends. So, he's in IT for a big company. I said "Hey, what do you think, AWS or Azure?" And I won't give away the names but he says look "We don't know what we're doing, like we're old school IT. We're running eight billion dollar business and we have network security. We're classic IT, we know we've got to get there, the boss is saying get to the cloud and, frankly, if we move to Amazon, half my team would either get fired or they wouldn't get it to work. So, we're just going to go with Microsoft because they've been selling us gear and stuff for decades." So, there we go, that's Azure. That has nothing to do with capability, that's a real-life scenario that we're hearing. Stu? Corey? >> It's incredibly important because once upon a time, I was a grumpy Unix admin because there's no other kind of Unix admin. And I was very anti-cloud for a long time. The reason was, I could come up with a whole list of flimsy justifications why the cloud was crap but the honest answer was I had built my sense of identity around the thing that I knew how to do and the cloud felt like it was taking it away from what I was. It wasn't true. There is a growth path, it's not as long as people often think it is but you can't fight the tide forever. And that world is slowly but surely eroding out from under you. Do you go Azure? Do you go AWS? That's going to depend on you, where you are, what your constraints are, what your business concerns are but I also think it's a miss-step to view the migration process solely as one of technology, it's people. >> Hold on, I need to chime in here, John, because I think >> You can slack in here too because people use that instead of chime. >> It is Goldilocks syndrome here. There is one cloud out there that you need to be a PHD and the smartest people out here to do it. There's one cloud out there that we're going to meet you where you are and you don't need to make any changes. What Amazon's trying to do is that balance between, we want to make it uncomfortable enough to make the change so that you can be successful in the future. Whether or not they've struck the right balance, I think, is up for debate and, this is a journey, >> Well, Hyperscale there are varies out there but I think, that's where I see the >> We'll there's two things, psychology of, just the change, right? Your Unix admin example and my friend, which is true, it's legit. Now, the question is what's the indifference of getting the path? But, if you look at the Hyperscalers Dave Vellante pauses that all the time They would spend engineering time to save money, so they'd engineer a solution, save time. Enterprise would spend money to save time. That's the general purpose computing market that used to be. >> Corey: Yeah >> It's not like that anymore. It's not general purpose. >> The entire theme of this show seems to be aimed much more at Big E enterprise than the leading edge type of story. There was a lot more Goldman-Sachs than Netflix, for example. And that's a good thing, and that's okay. >> I think it's a great thing. >> There's still room to grow, I mean, they did not announce an AWS 400. There's no mainframe story in the cloud as such yet. >> That's actually a mini computer, technically, okay >> Oh, I'm sure. >> But proprietary mini computer. >> You don't want to know what the billing model looks like. >> If you know what AS400 is, you're old like us. >> They call them I series now but, yeah, that's right, a U series. Done. >> All right guys, wrapping it up, this is the big point. Final word, Corey, Amazon, long game, still in play, no real impact from competition yet but they're in the rear view mirror. They're seeing stuff. Did Amazon successfully move the distance between them and the competition at this event? At least from a narrative and/or announcement stand point? >> Well, I will say that no other cloud has a Machine Learning piano. So, I think that that definitely is a differentiating factor and it adds another item to a checkbox list somewhere, that someone cares about. But as far as the core competency, I think, Outpost absolutely opens up a world of opportunity for folks who otherwise would not take that step. I think that they're demonstrating a rapid execution story around what it takes to get Big E enterprise workloads migrated and giving an on-ramp that doesn't require everyone being re-tooled, re-skilled and, oh, everything you're doing is great. But it's awful, throw it away and start over. >> And Stu, there's trillions of Dollars of spend coming in to the sector. Certainly, there's clear visibility the operating model's there, there's IT spend trillions are gonna be on the table up for grabs. >> You know what's interesting? Was watching a Netflix documentary about Bill Gates on the way in, talking about what Microsoft went through after the anti-trust piece. It is looming right in front of us, for AWS. The market power they have, it's still a relatively small piece of the overall IT market, absolutely Amazon has the potential to take a big chunk out of that, you know, trillions of dollars there. It is always day one here, they are always impressive as to the feedback loops, the way they are listening and they're growing, so, that was, we said, a year ago, it was the Oval office, the Executive Office, was the biggest threat to Amazon, it still is the biggest threat I see. >> I think the big story here from this re:Invent is Amazon recognizes two things, big enterprises need to transform their way to be successful to take advantage of the capabilities not take a transitional, incremental improvement and, two, they got competition. And they see it. And the pressure's definitely on, they won't admit it, but Microsoft, through their sales machinery, is taking down spend, and if that trend continues and will Microsoft have that ability to keep that going and not have dis-economies of scale for taking short-cuts. Can Amazon keep the pressure on? Because that, to me, is the big story and then it's clear, the narrative is keep pushing hard and try to extend the lead out past everybody. >> The answer is customers win. >> John, Amazon still doesn't use the word multi-cloud, they're architectural design is not to solve multi-cloud as it is to extend AWS and, it's interesting, we will see which design architecture wins out in the future. But, you know. >> Yeah. It's a three horse race, are the going to be number one? I think they recognize multi-cloud, they won't admit it but, why would you? If you were building a PC, why would you promote the Mac? And again, if they're commercial, who's the Mac guy and who's the PC guy, Corey? I mean, who's cooler? Microsoft or Amazon? >> These days? That's starts to become a bit of an open question. There's been fantastic transformational stories, as they say, it's not your grandfather's Microsoft. But, then again, Amazon has made some interesting choices as we go too. >> Stu, the Mac guy was cooler than the PC guy in those famous commercials, >> Absolutely he was. >> Who's cooler? Amazon or Apple? >> Corey, when you look at some of the cultural pieces, absolutely Microsoft has gone through some transformations. But Amazon was, for talking about AWS, they are cloud native. They are cloud. >> So they're cooler as far as Stu stands. Okay, depends how you look at it. This is a wrap up, guys, thanks for coming in, Corey, good to see you. >> Thank you for having me. >> I know you're working hard. >> Corey Quinn, one of the hardest working guys in the business, along with Stu Miniman, Dave Vellante, I'm John Furrier for John Walls, Jeff Frick, Leonard and the whole team, thanks for watching. I want to say, thanks to our sponsors who support our mission, which is to bring theCUBE to events and do as much high quality content as possible, with creators, decision makers, with executives, develop, whoever's got the action, the signal from the noise, we get that support by our sponsors, so without them, we wouldn't be here and of course Intel have the naming rights studio sponsorship as the headline, thank Intel and AWS for supporting, there's two stages here at AWS, so thank them and thanks to the entire team for watching. That's a wrap for AWS re:Invent 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)