from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation vibrator this is Dave Volante and welcome to this special cube conversation as you know I've been running a CXO series now for several weeks really trying to understand how leaders are dealing and coping with the Cova 19 crisis today we want to switch gears a little bit and talk not only about how leadership has sort of navigated through this crisis but also start to imagine what it's going to look like coming out of it I'm going to introduce you to a company that have been talking about now for the last well six to nine months company called octave as you know from my previous breaking analysis this is a company that not only is in the security business they really kind of made their mark with identification management but also really there's a data angle normally when you think about security you thinking about auto security it means that less user flexibility it means less value from the user standpoint what what octa has done really successfully is bring together both endpoint security as well as that data angle and so the company is about six hundred million dollars in revenue they've got an eighteen billion dollar valuation which you know may sound kind of rich at 30 X a revenue multiple but as I've reported the company is growing very rapidly I've talked about the you know the rule of 40 octa is really a rule of 50 type of company you know by that definition they're with me here to talk about the product side of things as dia jolly who's the chief product officer yeah thanks so much for coming on the cube I hope you're doing okay how are things out in California things are going well good to meet you as well Dave I hope you're doing well as well yeah we're hanging in there you know the studios are rocking the cube you know continues our daily reporting I want to start with your role you're relatively new to octa you've got a really interesting background particularly understanding endpoints you're at Google Google home of Google Nest you spent some time you know worrying about looking after Xbox do you a good understanding of what's going on in the marketplace but talk about your your role and how specifically you're bringing that to enterprise sure so I drove about this I I say that I've done every kind of known product management imaginable the man at this point I'm done both Hardware Don software so dealt a lot with endpoints as you talked about that a lot with sass dealt with consumer dealt with enterprise and all over the place completely different sizes so after really my role as a chief product officer is to be able to understand and what our customers need right and what are the challenges they're facing and not just the challenges they're facing today but also what are the challenges that they'll face tomorrow that they don't even know about and then help build products to be able to overcome that both with our engineering teams as well as with our sales engineering team so that we can take it to market now my background is unique because I've seen so many identity being used in so many different ways across so many different use cases whether it's enterprise or its consumer and that given that we covered both sides spectrum I can bring that to bear yes so what I've reported previously is that that you guys kind of made your mark with with identification management but in terms of both workforce but also customer identification management which has been I think allowed you to be very very successful I want to bring up a chart and share something that I've I've shared a lot of data with our audience previously some guys if you bring that up so this is data from enterprise Technology Research our data partner and for those who follow this program you know we we generally talk in in two metrics a net score which is a measure of spending momentum and and also market share which really isn't real market share but it's it's pervasiveness in the survey and what you can see here is the latest April survey from over 1200 CIOs and IT practitioners and we're isolating on an octa and and we brought it back to July 15 survey you see a couple of points here I want to make one is it something to the right this is pervasiveness or market share so octa in the market is doing very very well it's why the valuation is so high what's driving the growth and then you can see in the green a 55% net net score very very strong it's one of the leaders in security but as I said it's more than than that so dia from a product standpoint what is powering this momentum sure so as you well know the world is working from home what after does is it provides Identity Management that allows you to connect to any technology and by any technology it primarily means technology technology that's not just on premise like your applications on-premise old-school applications or into software that's on premise but it also means technology that's in the clouds of SAS applications application infrastructure that's in the cloud etc and on the other hand it also allows companies to deploy applications where they can connect to their customers online so as more and more of the world moves to work from home you need to be able to securely and seamlessly allow your employees your partners to be able to connect from their home and to be able to do their work and that's the foundation that we provide now if you look at if you we've heard a lot in the press about companies like zoom slack people that provide online collaboration and their usage has gone up we're seeing similar trends across both octa as well as the entire security industry in general right and if you look at information recently since over to started phishing attacks have increased by six hundred and sixty seven percent and what we've seen in response is one of our products which is multi-factor authentication we've experienced in eighty percent growth in usage so really as Corvette has pushed forward there was a trend for people to be able to work remotely for people to be able to access cloud apps and but as ubered has suddenly poured gas on the fire for that we're seeing our customers reaching out to us a lot more needing more support and just the level of awareness and the level of interest raising let's talk about some of the trends that you guys see in the marketplace and like to better understand how that informs your product or you know roadmap and decisions you know obviously this cloud you guys have made a really good mark in the cloud space you know with both your your operating model your pricing model the modern stack the other is a reference that upfront which data talked a lot about digital transformation digital us data course the third is purity related to trust we've talked a lot on the cube about how the perimeter is there is no particular anymore the Queen is left her castle and so what are the big trends that you see the big waves that that you're riding and how does that inform your product directly sure so a few different things I think number one if you think about the way I've phrase this is or the way I think about it is the following any big technological trend you see today right whether it's the move the cloud whether it's mobile whether it's artificial intelligence intelligence you think about the neural nets etc or it's a personalized consumer experience all of that fundamentally depends on identity so the most important the so from a from being an identity provider the most important thing for us is to be able to build something that is flexible enough that is broad enough that it is able to span multiple uses right so we've taken from a product perspective that means we can follow two philosophies we can either the try and go solve each of these pain points one by one or we can actually try to build a platform that is more open that's more extensible and that's more flexible so that we can solve many of these use cases right and not only can we solve it because there's it extensible our customers can customize it they can build on top of it our partners can build on top of it so that's one thing that's one product philosophy that we hold dear and so we have the Octagon cloud which is a platform which provides both workforce identity as well as customer identity using the same underlying components the same multi-factor authentication we use for workforce we package up as an SDK so that our customer identity customers that's number one the second thing is you rightfully mention is data you can't really secure identity without data so we have very we have a lot of data across our customers we know when the users logging in we know what device they're logging in front we know the security posture on the device we know where they're logging in from we know their different behaviors were apps they go into or during wartime of the day etc so being able to harness all this data to say hey and apply ml model squared to say hey is the user secure or not is a very very core foundation of our product so for example we have what we call risk-based authentication you can not only do things like hey this user seems to be logging on from a location they've never logged on from but you could even do things like well you may not want to stop the user they may be traveling so instead of just asking them for a for a password you ask them for a multi-factor right so that's the other piece of it and in many ways data and security and usability are three legs of a triangle the more data you have the more you can allow a user you more security you can provide a user without creating more friction so it's sometimes helpful for the audience to understand a company in a edit Avant act in the landscape so the obvious platform out there is Active Directory now Microsoft with Azure Active Directory you know really you know trying to and and that's really been on their platforms but with api's you know Microsoft has got a thumbs in every pie how does octave differentiate from some of the other traditional platforms that are out there and and what gives you confidence that it and you can continue to do so going forward post kovat that's it that's a fantastic question Dave um so I think we divide if you think about our competitors on the workforce side we've got Microsoft and a couple of other competitors and on the customer Identity side really it's a bill versus buy story right most companies customer identity internally so let's take workforce first Microsoft is the dominant player there they've got Active Directory they've now got Azure Active Directory and from a Microsoft perspective I think Microsoft is always been great at building products or building technology that interconnected run the world is going to more there's more and more technology proliferation in the world and the way we differentiate is by becoming a neutral and independent platform so whether you're on a Microsoft stack whether you're on a Google stack whether you're on an amazon stack we are able to connect with you deeply we connect just as well with all 365 as they connect with Salesforce as we connect with AWS right and that has been our core philosophy and not only is that a philosophy for other when other vendors it's a philosophy for ourselves as well we have multi-factor authentication so do many other providers like duo if you want to use ours great if you don't want to use ours with our platform who use the one that's best for your technology and I think what we've always believed in from a product perspective is this independence this neutrality this ability to plug-and-play any technology you want into a platform to be able to do what you want and the technology that's best for your business's need so what's interesting what you said about the sort of make versus buy that's particularly relevant for the customer identification management because let's say you know I'm buying from Amazon I've got Amazon they know who I am but if I understand it correctly customers now are able to look across brands maybe cohort selling maybe make specific offers analyze the data that's an advantage that you bring that maybe do it yourself doesn't Frank maybe talk about that a little bit sure so really if you think about if you think about a bill versus buying even ten years ago life used to be relatively simple maybe 15 years ago you had a website you as your username your the password you weren't really using you don't have multiple channels you didn't have multiple devices as prevalent you didn't have multiple apps in a lot of cases connected to each other right and in that in that day and age password was fairly secure you weren't doing a lot of personalization with the user data or had a lot of sensitive user data so building a custom identity solution having your customer managing your customers identity yourself was fairly easy now it's becoming more and more hard number one I just talked about the phishing attacks they're an equal number of attacks on the customer identity side right so how do you actually secure this identity how do you actually use things like multi-factor authentication how do you keep up with all the latest in multi-factor authentication touch ID face ID etcetera and that's one the second thing we provide is scale for a number of companies we also provide the ability to scale dramatically which scaling identity and being being able to authenticate someone and keep someone authenticated in real time is actually a very big channel challenge as you get to more and more scale and then the last thing that you mentioned is this ability we provide a single view of the user which is super super powerful because now if you think about one of our customers Albertsons they have multiple different apps there are multiple different digital experiences and he don't have a siloed view of their customer across all these experiences here one identity for your customer that customer uses that one identity to log on to all your digital experiences across all channels and we're able to bring that data back together so if Albertsons wants to say hey somebody shot a in or bought something in one particular app but I know people that buy this particular object like something else that's available in another app they can give a promotion for it or they can give a discomfort that's so that makes a lot of sense I went into the PR platform get our data partner and I looked at which industries are really showing moment so remember this survey focus was run right in the heart of the the Cova 19 pandemic from from mid-march the mid April so it's a good of good current data point and there were four that stood out large companies healthcare and pharma telco which is courses this work-from-home thing and then consumer the example that you just gave from Albertsons is really you know sort of around that consumer there are a lot of industries that obviously been hit airlines restaurants hospitality but but these four really stood out as growth areas despite the kovat 19 pandemic I want to ask you about octane you just got it had your big user conference anything product specific that came out of that that our audience should know about I mean I'm an interested in access gateway I know that wasn't necessarily a new announcement but Cloud Gateway what were the highlights of some of those things from a product stamp yeah of course so we did we did made a very difficult decision to pivot octane virtually and we did this because a number of our customers are given what they're facing with the Kovach pandemic wanted to hear more around news around what our product launches are how they could use this with cetera and really I'd say there are three key product launches that I want to highlight here we had a number of different announcements and it was a very successful conference but the three that are the most relevant here one is we've always talked about being a platform and we've set this for the past four or five years I think and but over the last your and going into the next couple of years we're investing very very heavily in making our platform even more powerful even more extensible even more customizable and so that it can go across the scenarios you described right which is whether you're on Prem with Auto access gateway or you're in the cloud or in some kind of hybrid environment or you using some mix-and-match or work from home people in the office etc so really what we did this year over the last year was deepen our platform footprint and we started releasing the four components available in a platform which we call platform services so we have six components and we were directories that is customizable and and flexible so you can build your own emails except for N equals four users adds information related to them we have an integration platform that we've made available at a deep level where where our customers can use SDKs tools etc to be able to integrate with octa in a platform which we've talked a lot about and then we released three new platform services and one was what we call arc identity engine we had released we talked about this last year and this year we talked about it last year from a customer identity perspective this year we brought her into our workforce identity but also what that does is it allows you a lot more flexibility for situations like we're in right it allows you flexibility to define security policies at the parabola it so you could decide hey for my email I don't want my customers to have to use a multi-factor authentication for but for Salesforce I would definitely want them to use a multi-factor authentication if they're not in the office and it also allows you to have a lot more flexible factor recovery so for example if you forgot your password one of the biggest pain points of co-ed has been the number of helpdesk costs have been rising through the roof the phone calls are ringing nonstop right and one of the biggest reasons for helpdesk are says oh I can't login I got locked out either lost a factor or L forgot my password it helps with that um so that's one set of announcements the second set of announcements was we launched a brand new devices platform and personally this is my personal favorite but really what the devices platform allows you to do is the feature in it that we launched is called Fast Pass and what phosphorous allows you to do is it actually takes phosphorous to the next level it allows you to basically use logging into your device and us understanding the posture of the device and all the user context around you to be able to log you directly dr. then I imagine if you're on a Mac or a iOS device or an Android or a Windows device just being able to face match into your iOS or being able to touch ID into your Windows hello and you're automatically logged into lockdown right that is that and and the way we do that is we have this client on across all these operating systems that can really understand the security posture of the device it can understand of the device is managed if it's safe if it's jailbroken if it's unmanaged it can also connect with multiple signals on the device so if you have an EDR and MDM vendor we can ingest those signals and what they think of the risk we can also ingest signals directly from apps if apps things like um G suite and Salesforce actually track user behavior to determine risk they can pass those signals to us and then we can make a decision on hey we should allow the user to authenticate directly into octa because they've authenticated their device which we can make a decision that says no let's provider let's ask them to step up with a multi-factor authentication or we can say no this is too risky let's deny access and all of this is configurable by the IT admin they can decide the risk levels they're comfortable with they can decide the different risk levels by different apps so that was another major announcement and then and as a product person you rarely ever get the chance to actually increase security and usability at one time which is why it's my favorite you increase both security and usability together now the last one was action was a workflows engine we call it workflows lifecycle management and we it's really we launched a graphical no cord user interface identity is so important so many business processes for our customers there's so many business processes built an identity for example if someone joins her company you usually either have a script that allows them access to the applications they need to or you actually have an IT admin sitting in there trying to manually provide access or when they leave right what workflow lifecycle management or lifecycle management workflows allows you to do is it actually allows you to provide it actually provides you the no core graphical user interface where you can build all these flows so now you don't need someone that knows coding you can even have a business unit so for example I for me in the product for the product org I can have someone say hey building a business process similar it's something you would build in sort of like an iPad and allow everyone that comes in to be able to have access to fig mom because we use pigma a lot right those are the kinds of things you can do and it's super powerful and it takes the ability of our already existing lifecycle management product to the next level well thank you for that that's that summary dear so I want to kind of close with I mean those of you have been following the cube for a while there I think there's some similarities between octa and and and service now that obviously obvious differences but we started following you know ServiceNow pre-ipo is less than a hundred million dollar company and we've seen that company build out as a platform company and that's really what octa is doing here we're talking about a total available market that's yeah probably north of 50 billion so the the question I have he is you know what Frederic and pod started 11 years ago playing on the dynamics coming out of the financial crisis that got us to where we are today now you've got the challenge of you've achieved reached escape velocity now you've got this you know massive growth opportunity in front of you how do you see the product portfolio evolving expanding and I'm also interested in postcode with 19 you know no whiteboards no face-to-face contact not at least not for a while and how you're kind of managing through that but but how can we expect the product portfolio to expand over time what can you share with us so one of the given how pervasive identity has become and given how not just broad but at the same time deep it is there are multiple different places or product portfolio >> and a number of different places were thinking about right so one is you mentioned today we play in workforce identity and customer identity but we haven't even begun to talk about how we might play in consumer right one of the one of the biggest perk matter is consumers and consumers protecting their own identity so often an employee is not using their identity to lock the seals ports and you have an attack on a company and offered an employee actually logging into their Gmail their personal Gmail or their personal or some personal website that bank and they get and their credential get compromised in their fluency impossible so the more protective the more directly consumers the more we indirectly protect both enterprises from work from an employer as well as a customer perspective howdy we're an enterprise company so it doesn't mean that we are going to go direct to consumer there are ways to make employees more secure by what the director calls were so that's one the second thing is managing identities I think we've as the number of applications as the number of technologies are proliferate managing and an employee's life cycle who that governing that the life cycle is not administering etc is also fully stock also becoming very very challenging it was all well and good we'll never can ask and you were on that that's not true anymore an average company uses I think close to 200 applications and then if you broaden back to other resources like infrastructure there's a lot lock more so how do you actually build automated systems that based on the employee status based on their rule based on the project they're on provides them the right access for the right amount of time the third thing you mentioned is and you should pass on this initially but this is the there's this concept of zero security right and the perimeters disappeared how do you provide security so if you look at the industry at large today there are tons of different security vendors trying to provide security at each point if you talk to any see-saw out there it's really really hard to cobble all of this together and one of the things we were trying to do is we're trying to figure out how with our partners we can build a silly end-to-end solution for n - n zero trust for our customers so that's that's another area that the of the product portfolio we're pushing and then finally with the whole digital transformation and customer identity yes more and more companies want their customers to go back online yes more and more customers convenience of being able to interact online with Billy if you think about it the world has changed dramatically over the last three years with privacy laws with things like gdpr CCP etc how do you actually manage your customers obviously you actually manage their content how do you ensure that while you're using all this data from across these apps that we talked about here you and you're using for the first benefit how do you make sure that the minister private is secure and and how do you ensure your customers that's another major area that I think our customers are asking us for helping and so those are areas or so that you should be a big signature the next two to three years some of it will be through partnership that's generally that high-level directions we're headed in wealthy you so much for coming on the key on the key and sharing the product roadmap and some other details about the great company really interested in watching its continued ascendancy good luck in the marketplace and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Villante you conversations we'll see you next time [Music]

(bright music) >> Narrator: From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the cube. We're at our Palo Alto studio today. And we're kind of taking advantage of this opportunity to reach out to the community, as we're going through this COVID crisis, to talk to leaders, get their tips and tricks and advice. As you know, everyone is going through this thing together. It's really a unique situation that everybody has a COVID story, where were you in March of 2020. So we're excited to have our next guest. He's Corey Williams. He's the VP of strategy and marketing for Idaptive. Cory, great to see you. >> Hey, great to see you. Thanks for having me, Jeff. >> Absolutely, I was just thinking the last time that we saw, was late February, it was February 25th. At the RSA conference, 40,000 people I think was the last big show, that I attended for sure, and kind of snuck in, before everything got shut down. It's just amazing, you know, kind of how quick this light switch moment happened to really force first, everybody home, and then you know, kind of all these collateral impacts of that in terms of digital transformation. >> Yeah, it is amazing. I remember that RSA show very well, shaking dozens of people's hands, eating from a buffet, sitting in a crowded room. It's amazing how quickly things have transformed, and how our mindset about, just about everything, but especially what we do for a living and how we interact with each other, had just changed overnight. >> Yeah and it's fascinating too, because when the stay at home, what started to come out, you know, nobody really had time to plan. And you know, and I would argue even if you had, I don't know, six months to plan, nine months to plan, a year to plan, for kind of this cutover, it would still have been a difficult situation. So just to be, you know, kind of thrown in and it's ready said go. Here we are, really unique challenge for people, but also for the infrastructure providers, also for the technology providers, in the space that you operate in, which is security, very different challenge and it wasn't, you know, we're going to plan and get everybody's VPN is all hooked up and configured and tested. It's like, don't come to the office tomorrow. >> Yeah and it literally happened that quickly. It wasn't a matter of being able to plan this, like a normal transition. But it was literally, today we're working in the office, tomorrow, please don't come in, we'll let you know when it's going to change. And I think it really did catch a lot of companies off guard, even those that were used to supporting a remote workforce at least in part. >> Yeah, because it's interesting people been talking about new way to work and work from home and this for a very long time. But you know, this was an incredible forcing function. So let's talk about you know, kind of what you do for the people that aren't familiar with Idaptive. Give us kind of the quick, the quick overview. >> Sure, Idaptive is what's called an identity and access management company. What we do is we make it easier for end users to get access to all their applications, and for organizations to provide that access in more secure manner. As you know, all these cloud applications and devices that we need to have access to, are typically just secured by a password and they all have different passwords, and those passwords often get reused and shared among different employees, and it creates a big problem, for not only for the security of the company, but even for the IT Helpdesk who's got to support account lockouts and password resets and so, Idaptive is one of the leaders in this space. >> As you talk about the password reset and I didn't think really kind of from the IT support side if you don't have a teenager hopefully close by in the room you know, that creates all kinds of challenges, but it's real and the password situation was bad before. Now as you said we've got all kinds of internal applications, you've got all types of access control to your inside stuff, you have all your cloud applications. A lot of times you said passwords are stored in queues or they're stored in caches, or they're stored in your Chrome browser. You guys have written extensively about passwords and getting kind of past passwords to better ways to authenticate people, whenever you can actually written quite a bit recently on blog posts. Talk about your kind of strategy and how you help customers kind of rethink access. >> Yeah, there's sort of two main strategies that I've been writing about. And then our company has been talking to our customers about. The first one we call Next-Gen Access, which is essentially a combination or layers of technology like Single sign-on, multi-factor authentication, provisioning, and analytics provide some user behavior and risk. All of that is intended to provide a more secure experience where we can put additional factors besides just a password, in front of the user, but only do it, when the risk is high, so that we can preserve the user experience. And so that we call a Next-gen access approach. But ultimately, the reason you want to do that is to arrive at a zero trust state of mind. That sort of approach allows you to say that, hey, I've verified every user, that is on my network. I know the device they're using is something that I trust and is in good shape. And I've limited their access to just what they need in order to do their job. >> Now, do you find that most people in this situation are still accessing via a VPN or some secure network or as most of it, you know, it's public internet access, and you're relying really on the applications and the access and the protocols and the two factor to make sure people can only get what they're supposed to get? >> Yeah, I think you kind of bring up a good point. The vast majority of businesses are what I've referred to hybrid enterprises, they still have on-premise applications, they still have their own applications that they build. But they also are in the process of adopting cloud applications like Office 365. And you know, all of the different kind of productivity apps, that are very popular. And so most companies are stuck in this situation where they can't simply be completely virtual company overnight. They still have to provide access to on-premise systems and applications in order to do their business. And so many of them just had the option of saying, okay, here's VPN access for everyone. But as as we know, VPN access is a very blunt instrument. First of all you have it has to be able to scale to a lot of users. Second of all, it gives you access to the whole network from a remote location, both of which are situations that are difficult, especially when you have to turn it on overnight. >> You're right. So you and one of the articles that I saw in getting ready for this, has some really specific as straightforward advice to people, to help them enable their remote workers. I wonder if you could go through some of those key points with us? >> Sure, I think, you know, when you think about remote access or having a remote workforce, you think about a few different things. One is be able to provide them easy kind of friction, free discovery of their applications and providing access. So, having something like a portal of all the applications that you're supposed to have access to whether they're on-premise or in the cloud, and have one click access to those protected in a way that is common to all those applications, using something like a second factor of authentication. That provides some of the immediate convenience of getting people up and productive, even if they're outside the network at home. The second thing we think about is, how do we give access to those on-premise applications? You can use VPN, it's quick, I can tell you that our customers are telling us two things. One is they didn't prepare for that much capacity. So their VPN connections don't scale. So they're having to ration the use of it, which limits the productivity. But also, they haven't necessarily rolled out multi-factor authentication to all of these users who don't typically use VPN. And so they are forced with either having to dial down, the security level, or to scramble and try to find a way to secure that access. So in my writings, we've been talking about providing alternatives to a VPN, something like an application gateway, which would can give you access to just the apps you need, without having to have full network access, and having those apps just be published through the gateway. >> So there's really some kind of creative ways to restructure the access beyond just simply having better access more secure access and as you said VPN and multi-factor cause in fact, you might not be able to implement those things just in the timely manner which you have, as we said, this was a light switch moment. >> Yeah I think definitely the it's something to think about in these emergency light switch moments, what is the easiest way and there's three parties involved. You've got the security folks who are concerned about maintaining a level of continuity with the access to their data. But you also have the end user and they have to do their job. It has to be easy enough for them to be able to do, without having to have a lot of special training. And let's not forget the IT Helpdesk, either. They are getting overwhelmed with requests for about basic technology use and about getting access to the basic resources. The last thing you want to do is pile on a whole bunch of new lockouts. And, you know, barriers have been put in front of users, that can overwhelm them. So you kind of have to think about all three parties, when you're developing a solution for remote workforce. >> All right, and I presume the bad guys are not taking holiday, seeing this opportunity as again, we're constantly talking about this increasing attack surface. It just got a whole lot bigger for the bad guys. >> It certainly did. I mean, if you think about the attack surface, it used to be that if they could get past your network barrier, then they were in. And so he was very concentrated around securing the network. As you start adopting more mobile and cloud applications, now your attack surface becomes all the resources are out in the cloud. Now, when you take all of your workers and disperse them to home, each one of their own systems and networks becomes an extension of that attack surface. And so anything you can do to narrow and lessen the attack surface by making sure you have good user verification, device validation, and other layers of intelligence to help you monitor that access. It reduces the scope to everyone on Earth, from any device on Earth, to just the people that you you trust and if identified, and that's why we talked to our our customers about is putting these layers in that can balance that security, but also provide a more friction free user experience and that's the real trick. >> All right, so I'm just curious to get your take you've been in the business for a long time. And kind of the state of passwords, you know, is this just something we're stuck with forever? Do you see in the not too distant future? Or medium future? Passwords going away? I mean, we've got biometric stuff now, you can touch your phone, you can read your iris, but those things can be spoofed as well. Where do you see, you know, kind of the passwords evolving and what's going to take its place? >> You know, it's a little bit like the clothes in the back of my closet, you can never quite get rid of everything. And I think passwords are will always be with us in some form, because they're baked into technology that's been around forever. As a side note, you've probably heard about these IRS checks going out. And there being problems in some states because these stimulus checks are dependent on systems that were built 50 years ago. And so technology kind of lives forever in some form. So we can't necessarily get rid of passwords, but there are two things we can do, one is we can never depend on passwords alone to secure access, we can layer on, multi-factor authentication and artificial intelligence to determine risk level and put an additional set of factors in front of the user. But we can also develop new applications and technologies, with more of what is being known as a password list experience, which is sort of an ideal thing. And we have some experience with modern technology like facial recognition on our iPhone or a fingerprint on our PC. Those types of experiences can be built in and before COVID happened, I'd say that one of the big trends of 2020 was this idea of password list access. And we have actually recently announced some of our own password capabilities, but it was a hot trending topic. And I think will continue to be because not only is it a more secure experience, but it's also much easier for end users and they would prefer to have a one click access rather than having to remember a complex string that they have changed in 90 days. >> I was going to say, do you think it's an accelerant? Or in terms of having this alternative access method? Or is it a pullback because people are hunkering down, but it sounds on those two attributes, that it's a better thing. >> I think definitely in >> The more secure that seems pretty straightforward. >> Yes, I think definitely, in the medium and long term, this will accelerate the trend. In the short term, yes. Everything is being focused on just enabling those remote users. There was a actually a recent survey done by Mayfield, with their collection of CSOs and CTOs, asking them what the top priorities were in the short term. And of course, the number one priority for IT leaders is enabling that remote workforce. But number two in the short term is actually security enabling that says not only enabling users to work from home productively, but making sure that security is keeping track. So I don't think they've lost sight even in the short term, although I think they're focused on very tactical goals related to scaling out the solutions and supporting their end users. In the medium term and in the long term, this is going to have lasting effects. We know that the remote workforce trend was accelerated and there's no turning back. Companies are going to be more remote, they're going to be more comfortable with remote models. And so having better stronger, better experiences and stronger authentication experiences will be part of how we do things going forward. >> Well, Cory, in everywhere we go, security has to get baked into everything. So it's no longer a bolt in is, as you well know, and so it's not surprising that that's right in there with supporting those remote people cause they got access to the keys to the kingdom. You just can't let that get out there. So give you the final word once we come out of COVID and in terms of, you know, looking directly at what that's driving in terms of priorities. What are some of the other priorities that you hope to get back to, once we kind of get through this period? >> Well, I mean, I think clearly, we're seeing the effect on certain industries like travel and hospitality and others, we certainly and we tell,, we certainly hope that those businesses are able to come back strong. So those are some of the things we're looking forward to. But we know a lot of our customers are really wanting to not just respond to the current activities that are happening, but they want to build their businesses. They want to build better user experiences, they want to put out new digital experiences. We know from the survey as well, from Mayfield that increasing acceleration towards adopting cloud, and towards the digital transformation of user and business processes is going to be key. And so that's what we see the future is not just in providing security to prevent the bad guy, but to enable these new digital experiences and to accelerate these trends like move to cloud, identity and access management is fundamental to all of those efforts. And we see that as being a very positive thing. And hopefully this will end up serving as a catalyst to spurred and acceleration of those adoptions. >> Well, I think there's no doubt about it. I mean, we're not going to go back and the longer this thing goes on, the more new habits are formed, and people aren't just going to want to go back to the old ways. So I think there's no doubt about it. And I really appreciate you sharing your insights. Again, Cory has written a ton of stuff. There's blogs all over the place, do a quick search on Cory Williams with an E, and you'll find some of his blog posts and thanks for taking a few minutes with us here today, Cory. >> You bet, thank you, Jeff. >> All right, he's Corey, I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. We're in our Palo Alto studios. Stay safe out there, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this special cube in size powered by ET our enterprise Technology Research our partner who's got this database to solve the spending data and what we're gonna do is a braking analysis on the analytic database market we're seeing that cloud and cloud players are disrupting that marketplace and that marketplace really traditionally has been known as the enterprise data warehouse market so Alex if you wouldn't mind bringing up the first slide I want to talk about some of the trends in the traditional EDW market I almost don't like to use that term anymore because it's sort of a pejorative but let's look at it's a very large market it's about twenty billion dollars today growing it you know high single digits low double digits it's expected to be in the 30 to 35 billion dollar size by mid next decade now historically this is dominated by teradata who started this market really back in the 1980s with the first appliance the first converged appliance or coal with Exadata you know IBM I'll talk about IBM a little bit they bought a company called mateesah back in the day and they've basically this month just basically killed the t's and killed the brand Microsoft has entered the fray and so it's it's been a fairly large market but I say it's failed to really live up to the promises that we heard about in the late 90s early parts of the 2000 namely that you were going to be able to get a 360 degree view of your data and you're gonna have this flexible easy access to the data you know the reality is data warehouses were really expensive they were slow you had to go through a few experts to to get data it took a long time I'll tell you I've done a lot of research on this space and when you talked to the the data warehouse practitioners they would tell you we always had to chase the chips anytime Intel would come out with a new chip we forced it in there because we just didn't have the performance to really run the analytics as we need to it's took so long one practitioner described it as a snake swallowing a basketball so you've got all those data which is the sort of metaphor for the basketball just really practitioners had a hard time standing up infrastructure and what happened as a spate of new players came into the marketplace these these MPP players trying to disrupt the market you had Vertica who was eventually purchased by HP and then they sold them to Micro Focus greenplum was buy bought by EMC and really you know company is de-emphasized greenplum Netezza 1.7 billion dollar acquisition by IBM IBM just this month month killed the brand they're kind of you know refactoring everything par Excel was interesting was it was a company based on an open-source platform that Amazon AWS did a one-time license with and created a redshift it ever actually put a lot of innovation redshift this is really doing well well show you some data on that we've also at the time saw a major shift toward unstructured data and read much much greater emphasis on analytics it coincided with Hadoop which also disrupted the market economics I often joked it the ROI of a dupe was reduction on investment and so you saw all these data lakes being built and of course they turned into the data swamps and you had dozens of companies come into the database space which used to be rather boring but Mike Amazon with dynamodb s AP with HANA data stacks Redis Mongo you know snowflake is another one that I'm going to talk about in detail today so you're starting to see the blurring of lines between relational and non relational and what was was what once thought of is no sequel became not only sequel sequel became the killer app for Hadoop and so at any rate you saw this new class of data stores emerging and snowflake was one of the more interesting and and I want to share some of that data with you some of the spending intentions so over the last several weeks and months we've shared spending intentions from ETR enterprise technology research they're a company that that the manages of the spending data and has a panel of about 4,500 end-users they go out and do spending in tension surveys periodically so Alex if you bring up this survey data I want to show you this so this is spending intentions and and what it shows is that the public cloud vendors in snowflake who really is a database as a service offering so cloud like are really leading the pack here so the sector that I'm showing is the enterprise data warehouse and I've added in the the analytics business intelligence and Big Data section so what this chart shows is the vendor on the left-hand side and then this bar chart has colors the the red is we're leaving the platform the gray is our spending will be flat so this is from the July survey expect to expectations for the second half of 2019 so gray is flat the the dark green is increase and the lime green is we are a new customer coming on to the platform so if you take the the greens and subtract out the red and there's two Reds the dark red is leaving the lighter red is spending less so if you subtract the Reds from the greens you get what's called a net score so the higher the net score the better so you can see here the net score of snowflake is 81% so that very very high you can also see AWS in Microsoft a very high and Google so the cloud vendors of which I would consider a snowflake at cloud vendor like at the cloud model all kicking butt now look at Oracle look at the the incumbents Oracle IBM and Tara data Oracle and IBM are in the single digits for a net score and the Terra data is in a negative 10% so that's obviously not a good sign for those guys so you're seeing share gains from the cloud company snowflake AWS Microsoft and Google at the expense of certainly of teradata but likely IBM and Oracle Oracle's little for animal they got Exadata and they're putting a lot of investments in there maybe talk about that a little bit more now you see on the right hand side this black says shared accounts so the N in this survey this July survey that ETR did is a thousand sixty eight so of a thousand sixty eight customers each er is asking them okay what's your spending going to be on enterprise data warehouse and analytics big data platforms and you can see the number of accounts out of that thousand sixty eight that are being cited so snowflake only had 52 and I'll show you some other data from from past surveys AWS 319 Microsoft the big you know whale here trillion dollar valuation 851 going down the line you see Oracle a number you know very large number and in Tara data and IBM pretty large as well certainly enough to get statistically valid results so takeaway here is snowflake you know very very strong and the other cloud vendors the hyper scale is AWS Microsoft and Google and their data stores doing very well in the marketplace and challenging the incumbents now the next slide that I want to show you is a time series for selected suppliers that can only show five on this chart but it's the spending intentions again in that EDW and analytics bi big data segment and it shows the spending intentions from January 17 survey all the way through July 19 so you can see the the period the periods that ETR takes this the snapshots and again the latest July survey is over a thousand n the other ones are very very large too so you can see here at the very top snowflake is that yellow line and they just showed up in the January 19 a survey and so you're seeing now actually you go back one yeah January 19 survey and then you see them in July you see the net score is the July next net score that I'm showing that's 35 that's the number of accounts out of the corpus of data that snowflake had in the survey back in January and now it's up to 52 you can see they lead the packet just in terms of the spending intention in terms of mentions AWS and Microsoft also up there very strong you see big gap down to Oracle and Terra data I didn't show I BM didn't show Google Google actually would be quite high to just around where Microsoft is but you can see the pressure that the cloud is placing on the incumbents so what are the incumbents going to do about it well certainly you're gonna see you know in the case of Oracle spending a lot of money trying to maybe rethink the the architecture refactor the architecture Oracle open worlds coming up shortly I'm sure you're gonna see a lot of new announcements around Exadata they're putting a lot of wood behind the the exadata arrow so you know we'll keep in touch with that and stay tuned but you can see again the big takeaways here is that cloud guys are really disrupting the traditional edw marketplace alright let's talk a little bit about snowflakes so I'm gonna highlight those guys and maybe give a little bit of inside baseball here but what you need to know about snowflakes so I've put some some points here just some quick points on the slide Alex if you want to bring that up very fast-growing cloud and SAS based data warehousing player growing that couple hundred percent annually their annual recurring revenue very high these guys are getting ready to do an IPO talk about that a little bit they were founded in 2012 and it kind of came out of stealth and hiding in 2014 after bringing Bob Moog Leon from Microsoft as the CEO it was really the background on these guys is they're three engineers from Oracle will probably bored out of their mind like you know what we got this great idea why should we give it to Oracle let's go pop out and start a company and that NIN's and as such they started a snowflake they really are disrupting the incumbents they've raised over 900 million dollars in venture and they've got almost a four billion dollar valuation last May they brought on Frank salute Minh and this is really a pivot point I think for the company and they're getting ready to do an IPO so and so let's talk a little bit about that in a moment but before we do that I want to bring up just this really simple picture of Alex if you if you'd bring this this slide up this block diagram it's like a kindergarten so that you know people like you know I can even understand it but basically the innovation around the snowflake architecture was that they they separated their claim is that they separated the storage from the compute and they've got this other layer called cloud services so let me talk about that for a minute snowflake fundamentally rethought the architecture of the data warehouse to really try to take advantage of the cloud so traditionally enterprise data warehouses are static you've got infrastructure that kind of dictates what you can do with the data warehouse and you got to predict you know your peak needs and you bring in a bunch of storage and compute and you say okay here's the infrastructure and this is what I got it's static if your workload grows or some new compliance regulation comes out or some new data set has to be analyzed well this is what you got you you got your infrastructure and yeah you can add to it in chunks of compute and storage together or you can forklift out and put in new infrastructure or you can chase more chips as I said it's that snake swallowing a basketball was not pretty so very static situation and you have to over provision whereas the cloud is all about you know pay buy the drink and it's about elasticity and on demand resources you got cheap storage and cheap compute and you can just pay for it as you use it so the innovation from snowflake was to separate the compute from storage so that you could independently scale those and decoupling those in a way that allowed you to sort of tune the knobs oh I need more compute dial it up I need more storage dial it up or dial it down and pay for only what you need now another nuance here is traditionally the computing and data warehousing happens on one cluster so you got contention for the resources of that cluster what snowflake does is you can spin up a warehouse on the fly you can size it up you can size it down based on the needs of the workload so that workload is what dictates the infrastructure also in snowflakes architecture you can access the same data from many many different houses so you got again that three layers that I'm showing you the storage the compute and the cloud services so let me go through some examples so you can really better understand this so you've got storage data you got customer data you got you know order data you got log files you might have parts data you know what's an inventory kind of thing and you want to build warehouses based on that data you might have marketing a warehouse you might have a sales warehouse you might have a finance warehouse maybe there's a supply chain warehouse so again by separating the compute from that sort of virtualized compute from the from the storage layer you can access any data leave the data where it is and I'll talk about this in more and bring the compute to the data so this is what in part the cloud layer does they've got security and governance they got data warehouse management in that cloud layer and and resource optimization but the key in in my opinion is this metadata management I think that's part of snowflakes secret sauce is the ability to leave data where it is and have the smarts and the algorithms to really efficiently bring the compute to the data so that you're not moving data around if you think about how traditional data warehouses work you put all the data into a central location so you can you know operate on it well that data movement takes a long long time it's very very complicated so that's part of the secret sauce is knowing what data lives where and efficiently bringing that compute to the data this dramatically improves performance it's a game changer and it's much much less expensive now when I come back to Frank's Luqman this is somebody that I've is a career that I've followed I've known had him on the cube of a number of times I first met Frank Sloot when he was at data domain he took that company took it public and then sold it originally NetApp made a bid for the company EMC Joe Tucci in the defensive play said no we're not gonna let Ned afgan it there was a little auction he ended up selling the company for I think two and a half billion dollars sloop and came in he helped clean up the the data protection business of EMC and then left did a stint as a VC and then took over service now when snoop and took over ServiceNow and a lot of people know this the ServiceNow is the the shiny toy on Wall Street today service that was a mess when saluteth took it over it's about 100 120 million dollar company he and his team took it to 1.2 billion dramatically increased the the valuation and one of the ways they did that was by thinking about the Tam and expanding that Tim that's part of a CEOs job as Tam expansion Steuben is also a great operational guy and he brought in an amazing team to do that I'll talk a little bit about that team effect uh well he just brought in Mike Scarpelli he was the CFO was the CFO of ServiceNow brought him in to run finance for snowflake so you've seen that playbook emerge you know be interesting Beth white was the CMO at data domain she was the CMO at ServiceNow helped take that company she's an amazing resource she kind of you know and in retirement she's young but she's kind of in retirement doing some advisory roles wonder if slooping will bring her back I wonder if Dan Magee who was ServiceNow is operational you know guru wonder if he'll come out of retirement how about Dave Schneider who runs the sales team at at ServiceNow well he you know be be lord over we'll see the kinds of things that Sluman looks for just in my view of observing his playbook over the years he looks for great product he looks for a big market he looks for disruption and he looks for off-the-chart ROI so his sales teams can go in and really make a strong business case to disrupt the existing legacy players so I one of the things I said that snoopin looks for is a large market so let's look at this market and this is the thing that people missed around ServiceNow and to credit Pat myself and David for in the back you know we saw the Tam potential of ServiceNow is to be many many tens of billions you know Gartner when they when ServiceNow first came out said hey helpdesk it's a small market couple billion dollars we saw the potential to transform not only IT operations but go beyond helpdesk change management at cetera IT Service Management into lines of business and we wrote a piece on wiki Vaughn back then it's showing the potential Tam and we think something similar could happen here so the market today let's call 20 billion growing to 30 Billy big first of all but a lot of players in here what if so one of the things that we see snowflake potentially being able to do with its architecture and its vision is able to bring enterprise search you know to the marketplace 80% of the data that's out there today sits behind firewalls it's not searchable by Google what if you could unlock that data and access it in query at anytime anywhere put the power in the hands of the line of business users to do that maybe think Google search for enterprises but with provenance and security and governance and compliance and the ability to run analytics for a line of business users it's think of it as citizens data analytics we think that tam could be 70 plus billion dollars so just think about that in terms of how this company might this company snowflake might go to market you by the time they do their IPO you know it could be they could be you know three four five hundred billion dollar company so we'll see we'll keep an eye on that now because the markets so big this is not like the ITSM the the market that ServiceNow was going after they crushed BMC HP was there but really not paying attention to it IBM had a product it had all these products that were old legacy products they weren't designed for the cloud and so you know ServiceNow was able to really crush that market and caught everybody by surprise and just really blew it out there's a similar dynamic here in that these guys are disrupting the legacy players with a cloud like model but at the same time so the Amazon with redshift so is Microsoft with its analytics platform you know teradata is trying to figure it out they you know they've got an inertia of a large install base but it's a big on-prem install base I think they struggle a little bit but their their advantages they've got customers locked in or go with exudate is very interesting Oracle has burned the boats and in gone to cloud first in Oracle mark my words is is reacting everything for the cloud now you can say Oh Oracle they're old school they're old guard that's fine but one of the things about Oracle and Larry Ellison they spend money on R&D they're very very heavy investor in Rd and and I think that you know you can see the exadata as it's actually been a very successful product they will react attacked exadata believe you me to to bring compute to the data they understand you can't just move all this the InfiniBand is not gonna solve their problem in terms of moving data around their architecture so you know watch Oracle you've got other competitors like Google who shows up well in the ETR survey so they got bigquery and BigTable and you got a you know a lot of other players here you know guys like data stacks are in there and you've got you've got Amazon with dynamo DB you've got couch base you've got all kinds of database players that are sort of blurring the lines as I said between sequel no sequel but the real takeaway here from the ETR data is you've got cloud again is winning it's driving the discussion and the spending discussion with an IT watch this company snowflake they're gonna do an IPO I guarantee it hopefully they will see if they'll get in before the booth before the market turns down but we've seen this play by Frank Sluman before and his team and and and the spending data shows that this company is hot you see them all over Silicon Valley you're seeing them show up in the in the spending data so we'll keep an eye on this it's an exciting market database market used to be kind of boring now it's red-hot so there you have it folks thanks for listening is a Dave Volante cube insights we'll see you next time

>> (Narrator) Live, from Boston, Massachusetts it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Boston everybody, this is Red Hat Summit, and this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Dave Vellante, with my cohost Stu Miniman, and John Hodgson is here, he's the Senior Director of IT Program Management at Optum technology. John good to see ya. >> Good, it's good to be here. >> Fresh off the keynote, we were just talking about the large audience, a very large audience here. And Optum, you described a little bit at the keynote what Optum is with healthcare, sort of technology arm. Which is not super common but not uncommon in your world. But describe Optum and where it fits. >> So in the grand scheme of things within UnitedHealth Group you know, we have the parent company, of course, you know the Health Group, our insurance side, that does insurance, whether it's public sector for large corporations, as well as community and state government type work as UnitedHealthcare. They do all that, and then Optum is our technology side. We do really all the development, both for supporting UHC as our main customer, you know, they're truly our focus, but we also do a lot of commercial development as well for UnitedHealthcare's competitors. So big, big group, as I mentioned in the keynote. Over 10,000 developers in the company, lots of spend, I think in the last year our, just internal IT budget was like $1.2 billion in just IT development capital. So it's huge. >> Dave: Mind-boggling. >> John, you've got that internal Optum Cloud, Can you give us just kind of the breadth and depth, you said 1.2 billion, there. What is that make up, what geographies does that span, how many people support that kind of environment? >> As far as numbers of people supporting it, I think we've got a few hundred in our Enterprise Technology Services Group, that supports Optum Cloud. We started Optum Cloud probably a half a dozen years ago, and it's gone through its different iterations. And part of my job right now is all about Enterprise Cloud adoption and migration. So, we started with our own environment, we call it UCI, United, it was supposed to be Converged Infrastructure, but I call it our Cloud Infrastructure, that's really what it is. And we've continued to enhance that. So over the last few years, I think about 3.5, four years ago, we brought in Red Hat and OpenShift. We're on our third iteration of OpenShift. Very, very stable platform for us now. But we also have Azure Stack in there as well, I think even as Paul and those guys mentioned in the keynote there's a lot of different things that you can kind of pull from each one of the technology providers to help support what we're doing, kind of take the best of breed from each one of them, and use them in each solution. >> Organizations are always complaining that they spend all this money on keeping the lights on, and they're trying to make the shift, and obviously Cloud helps them do that, and things like OpenShift, etc. What's that like in your world? How much of your effort is spent on maintenance and keeping the lights on? Sounds like you got a lot of cool, new development activity. Can you describe that dynamic for us? >> Yeah, we've got a really good support staff. Our group, SSMO, when we build an application, they kind of take it back over and run everything. We've got a fabulous support team in the background. And to that end, and it's on both sides, right? We have our UnitedHealthcare applications that we build that have kind of their own feature set, because of what it's doing internally for us, versus what we do on the OptumInsight side, where it's more commercial in nature. So they have some different needs. Some of the things that we're developing, even for Cloud Scaffolding that I mentioned in the keynote. We're kind of working on both sides of the fence, there, to hit the different technologies that each one of them really need to be successful, but doing it in a way that it doesn't if you're on one side of the fence or the other, it's a capability that everybody will be able to use. So if there's a pattern on one side that you want to be able to use for a UHC application, by all means, go ahead and grab it, take it. And a lot of what we're doing now is even kind of crowdsourcing things, and utilizing the really super intelligent people that we have, over 10,000 developers. And so many of them, we've got a lot of legacy stuff. So there's some old-school guys that are still doing their thing, but we've got a lot of new people. And they want to get their hands on the new fresh stuff, and experience that. So there's really a good vibe going on right now, with how things are changing, all the TDP folks that we're bringing in. A lot of fresh college grads and things. And they love to see the new technologies, whether it's OpenShift or whatever. Lot are really getting into DevOps, trying to make that change in a big organization is difficult, we got a little ways to go with that. But that's kind of next up. >> You're an interesting case study, because you've got a lot of the old and a lot of cool innovation going on. And is it, how do you decide when to go, because DevOps is not always the answer. Sometimes waterfall is okay, you know. So, how do you make that determination, and where do you see that going? >> That's a great question, that's actually part of what my team does. So my specific team is all about Cloud adoption and migration, so our charter is really to work across the enterprise. So whether it's OptumInsight, OptumRx, UnitedHealthcare, we are working with them to evaluate their portfolios of applications to figure out legacy applications that we have that are still strategic. They've got life in them, they've got business benefit. And we want to be able to take advantage of that, but at the same time there's some of these monolithic applications that we look at how can we take that application, decompose it down into microservices and APIs, things like that, to make it available to other applications that maybe are just greenfield, are coming out now, but still need that same technology and information. So that's really what my team is doing right now. So we sit down with those teams and go through an analysis, help them develop a road map. And sometimes that road map is two or three years long. Getting to fully cloud from where they're at right now in some of these legacy applications is a journey. And it costs money, right? There's a lot of budget concerns and things like that that go with it. So that's part of what we helped develop is a business case for each one of those applications that we can help support them going back, and getting the necessary capital to do the cloud migrations and the improvements, and really the modernization of their applications. We started the program a couple of years ago and found that if you want to hang your hat on just going from old physical infrastructure, some of the original VMs that we had. And just moving over to cloud infrastructure, and whether that's UCI, OpenShift, Azure, whatever. If you're going to do your business case on that, you're going to be writing a lot of business cases before you get one approved. It's all about modernizing the applications. So if you fold in the move to new infrastructure, cloud infrastructure, along with the ability to modernize that application, get them doing agile development, getting down the DevOps path, looking at automated testing, automated deployment, zero downtime deployments. All of those things, when you add them up together and say, okay, here's what your real benefit looks like. And you're able to present that back to the business, and show them speed to market, speed to value is a new metric that we have. Getting things out there quickly. We used to do quarterly releases, or even biannual releases. And now we're at monthly, weekly, some of our applications that are more relatively new, Health4Me, if you go to the App Store, that's kind of our big app on the App Store. There's updates on a very frequent basis. >> So that's the operating model, really, that you're talking about, essentially, driving business value. We had a practitioner on a couple weeks ago, and he said, "If you just lift and shift to the cloud, "and you don't change your operating model, "you won't get a dime." >> Stu: You're missing the boat. >> Maybe there's something, some value there, a little faster, but you're talking about serious dollars, if you can change the operating model. And that's what you've found? >> Yeah absolutely, and that's the, it's a shift, and you've got to be able to prove it to the business that's there's benefit there, and sometimes that's hard. Some of these cloud concepts and things are a little nebulous, so-- >> It's hard 'cause it's soft. >> It's soft, right, yeah, I mean, you're putting the business case together, the hard stuff is easy to document, but when you're talking about the soft benefits, and you're trying to explain to them the value that they're going to get out of their team switching from a waterfall development over to agile and DevOps, and automated testing and things like that, where I can say, "Hey listen, "you know your team over here that has been, "you know we took them out of the pocket, "from actually doing their day jobs for the last week, "because they needed to test this new version? "If I can take that out of the mix, "and they don't have to do that anymore, "and they can keep on doing what they're doing "and not get a week behind, what value is that for you?" And all of a sudden they're like, "Oh really? "We don't have to do that anymore?" I'm like, "No, we can create test scripts and stuff. "We can automate your deployment. "We can make it zero downtime. "We have," there's an application that we're working on now that has 19,000 individual desktop deployments. And we're going to automate that, turn it into a software as a service application, host it on OpenShift, and completely knock that out. I mean deployments out to 19,000 people take weeks to get done. We only do a couple thousand a week, because there's obviously going to be issues. So now you've got helpdesk tickets, you've got desktop technicians that are going round, trying to fix things, or dialing in, remoting into somebody's desktop to try to help figure that all out. We can do the whole deployment in a day, and everybody logs in the next day, and they've got the new version. That kind of value in creating real cloud-based applications is what's driving the benefit for us. And they're finally starting to really see that. And as we're doing it, more application product owners are going, "Okay, now we're getting some traction. "We heard what you did over here. "Come talk to us, and let's talk "about building a road map and figuring out what we can do." >> John, one of the questions I got from the community after watching you keynote was, they want to understand how you handle security and enforce compliance in this new cloud development model. (laughs) >> That's beyond me, all I can tell you is that we have one of the most secure clouds out there. Our private cloud is beyond secure. We're working right now to try to get the public hybrid cloud space with both AWS and Azure, and working through contracts and stuff right now. But one of the sticking points is our security has to be absolutely top notch, if we're going to do anything that has HIPAA-related data, PHI, PII, PCI, any of that, it has got to be lock-solid secure. And we have a tremendous team led by Robert Booker, he's absolutely fabulous, I mean we're, our whole goal, security-wise, is don't be the next guy on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. >> You mentioned public cloud, how do you make your decisions as to what application, what data can live in which public cloud? You said you've got Azure Stack, and you've got OpenShift. How do you make those platform decisions? >> Well right now, both OpenShift and Azure Stack are on our internal private cloud. So we're in the process of kind of making that shift to move over towards public and hybrid cloud. So I'm working with folks on our team to help develop some of those processes and determine what's actually going to be allowed. And I think in a lot of cases the PHI and protected data is going to stay internal. And we'll be able to take advantage of hosting certain parts of an application on public cloud while keeping other parts of the data really secure and protected behind our private cloud. >> Red Hat made an announcement this morning with AWS, with OpenShift. >> Sounds like that might be of interest to you, would that impact what your doing? >> Absolutely, yeah, in fact I was talking with Jim and Paul back behind the screen this morning. And we were talking about that and I was like wow that is a game changer. With what we're thinking about doing in the hybrid cloud space, having all of the AWS APIs and services and stuff available to us. Part of the objection that I get from some folks now is knowing that we have this move toward public and hybrid cloud internally, and the limitations of our cloud. We're never going to be, our private Optum Cloud is never going to be AWS or Azure, it's just not. I mean they've spent billions of dollars getting those services and stuff in place. Why would we even bother to compete with that? So we do what we do well, and a big portion of that is security. But we want to be able to expand, and take advantage of the things that they have. So that's, this whole announcement of being able to take advantage of those services natively within OpenShift? If we're able to expose that, even internally, on our own private cloud? That's going to take away a lot of the objections, I think, from even our own folks, who are waiting to do the public hybrid cloud piece. >> When the Affordable Care Act hit, did your volume spike? And as things, there's a tug of war now in Washington, it could change again, does that drive changes in your application development in terms of the volume of requests that come in, and compliance things that you have to adhere to? And if so, does having a platform that's more agile, how does that affect your ability to respond? >> Yeah it does, I mean when we first got into the ACA, there was a number of markets that we got into. And there was definitely a ramp-up in development, new things that we had to do on the exchanges. Stuff like that. I mean we even had groups from Optum that were participating directly with the federal government, because some of their exchanges were having issues, and they needed some help from us. So we had a whole team that was kind of embedded with the federal government, helping them out, just based on our experience doing it. And, yeah, having the flexibility, in our own cloud, to be able to able to spin up environments quickly, shut them down, all that, really it's invaluable. >> So the technology business moves so fast, I mean it wasn't that long ago when people saw the first virtualized servers and went Oh my gosh, this is going to change the world. And now it's like, wow we got to do better, and containers. And so you've gone for this amazing transformation, I mean, I think it was 17 developers to 1,600, which is just mind-boggling. Okay, and that's, and you've got technologies that have helped you do that, but five years down the road there's going to be a what's next. So what is next for you? As you break out your telescope, what do you see? >> God, I don't know, I mean I never would have predicted containers. >> Even though they've been around forever, we-- >> Yeah I mean when we first went to VMs, you know back in the day I was a guy in the server room, racking and stacking servers and running cables, and doing all that, so I've seen it go from one extreme to the next. And going from VMs was a huge switch. Building our own private cloud was amazing to be a part of, and now getting into the container side of things, hybrid cloud, I think for us, really, the next big step for us is the hybrid cloud. So we're in the process of getting that, I assume by the end of this year, early next, we'll be a few steps into the hybrid cloud space. And then beyond that, gosh I don't know. >> So that's really extending the operating model into that hybrid cloud notion, bringing that security that you talked about, and that's, you got a lot of work to do. >> John: That's a big task in itself. >> Let's not go too far beyond that, John. Alright well listen, thanks for coming on theCUBE, it was really a pleasure having you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me guys, appreciate it. >> You're welcome, alright keep it right there everybody, Stu and I will be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. We'll be right back. (electronic music)

live from Las Vegas Nevada it's the kue covering knowledge 15 brought to you by service now welcome back to knowledge 15 everybody I'm Dave vellante and we're here this is the cube and we've been unpacking the experience that is service now knowledge knowledge 15 with this our third knowledge we did 13 14 and now 15 we're very excited to be here Nicole Tate and van Tran are here the two consultants in the IT service management space happen to be focused on health care right now but they got a lot of experience couple IT practitioners folks welcome to the cube it's great to see you so to call uh let me start with you so your first knowledge or you've been to a couple knowledge shows her so I started back in New Orleans with such okay no it's true yeah all right right so wow you've seen the transformation of knowledge along with the evolution of service now when you what do you think about this one so I'm amazed you know the first knowledge i attended I remember being overwhelmed I hadn't even implemented my first phase and so I'm sitting in these sessions and I'm just like wow these people are rockstars look at all these cool things that they're doing and I came back very energized very revived and started on my own journey after that and now I'm seeing some of these same people coming up and being their own rock stars and kind of watching the conference grow it's really impressive so if you go back van you know a few years ago so the IT and still in many organizations is of the whipping child of the organization but we've really seen a transformation in that role for particularly the clients that are the customers that are here maybe you could talk about that in your own experience yeah I started with service now back probably in 2007 and so back then it was something that was shown as something is an easy platform that you can easily configure and through the growth of service now you know it's become more complicated and clients have had more requirements so then we've seen more dedicated roles to this profession and a lot of resources are needed to be successful in the complication that we have today especially in the health care industry so it's it's it's going getting more complicated and they'll be need to be more people involved to make it successful so you both are relatively new to healthcare right it's turn over the last 12 months or so or less casing the call but you've got a lot of experience you're consulting with different organizations you know around and what's different about health care Nicole what are your first impressions so I think health care has been one of these things that's very complicated and rightfully so it's it's people's health you know it's their lives but with recent legislation and recent things that are coming down health care is being forced to be more of a product more of a service right and as the cost per patient Rises and you're getting less back from insurance right you have to get creative and there's going to have to be some disruption in this industry I'm and I see service now as a platform that will be able to streamline a lot of these complex processes put some automation behind it and really reduce some costs so you think it'll reduce our bills I hope so so van let's talk about your experiences with with service now he said started in 2007 did I hear right that's when I first he's dead okay how did that all come about it's it's still fairly new at that time so when when our our service desk was replacing a tool it was just something that you brought in and then I worked at the helpdesk at that time so I was in charge of just sort of configured to replace our old tool at that time and so and since then I've just kind of did a little fudging here and there and but as I went through my career I've had more dedicated part in service now and so now I'm a full-time developer and so I'm just doing it a lot lot more now and Nicole you were saying off-camera that your experience is you were one of the first to go beyond IT maybe you could tell us about that yeah so and when I came to the New Orleans conference I was just worried about it's an IT tool and as I was sitting there listening to some of the sessions and some of the use cases I thought you know there's there's something unique here we could we can take this really far so I came back and I did a really aggressive roadmap and I showed my boss and he says you're trying to do everything in six months and I said fine give me 12 and he says okay good luck whatever go do whatever you need to do and I met with HR facilities accounts payable engineering and then we rolled out 15 business apps in 18 months vicious very it was really nice because we had everybody using the same platform and once you get everybody using the same platform then you can automate your enterprise processes so this stuff that you know everybody has a piece of that before you have to take outside of a workflow you'd have to go door knocking and say hey it's your turn to do your part now we just you know hit the now button right it just goes everybody just got an automated task to do their keys they would do that these you go to the next piece we were able to bring a lot of products to market very fast for that house we're breaking ice new ground how did you go about succeeding there just take us through kind of the steps that he took yeah um initially HR came to me and says you know we do what you do and I send our IT you don't do what we do and he says no absolutely we have these we have incidents and she do no you don't you know you ok let's now really have a conversation and he's any starts to walk me through he says yeah you know you didn't get paid what would you think that was that was and I'm like oh it's a really big incident and he said yeah exactly so I need something that I can have as a portal for employees to come through and get services from HR and I was like that makes a lot of sense you know let's go ahead and do this so we did a proof of concept where we got everybody in the room and did an 8-hour jam session and we came out of that with actually a really good app it took three weeks to roll it out because we had to do change management and some training to the field but time to market it was literally four weeks and we had an enterprise HR you know case automation piece to it so it's really cool what was it ok but there was no app creator back then right now so how did that all work so it was me i just right clicked and created an app into the table and prayed that i did it right youryour coder by background I'm not I'm definitely from the business side of the house so I did the the proof of concept and then I had a developer come in and do some of the security and some of the more complex logic that was needed to support something like HR but there's a lot of sensitive sensitivity to data and things like that van you're a you a developer by right background or no I come the service that side so that's why what your service now developer and now my service not developer so you guys are the low coders or no coders as they say how did you get into being a developer service now well starting at the service desk you know at that time I just took calls and wrote up incidents and I moved into the application space and I still had a hand in service now and I did a little bit more coding in my application role and then in my consulting role then that's when I start to do more coding and stuff like that and so then so that's how I got in that space and I like coding yeah people wouldn't have to call me as much as when I wrecked at the service desk i was able to concentrate more and not be pulled in two different directions and as a developer i can just focus on what i'm working on in front of my screen at that time ok so I'm envisioning you know code right as code I see our developers they got code all the place and understand it maybe it's HTML maybe it's Python whatever it is so what's it like to be a service now developer it's not so much different from that it's just you have to know that there's some proprietary functions within the ServiceNow system but it's mostly javascript-based and there's some jelly and then you can do some HTML on the CMS front too but the server has a lot of tools that sort of make it a little bit easier for people who don't code very much as one of those who do code very much and then it because gives them short cousin they don't have to write everything themselves so today's developer in service now can to have the options to make it really complex if they need to or they can use the out of box tools to help them configure their application in a more efficient matter it helps with better practice or if you don't have a computer science background I have a computer science okay so that helped it does it does how hey okay so you've taken courses and you understand logic and yes yeah that definitely does have some code maybe not commercially but yeah I've been insane Nicole did you have a computer science background I don't have an MBA I'm straight up business now okay and you consider yourself now a service now developer or no you just sort of broke the ice so I'm definitely capable of putting together you know as it you know part of my role is being a champion for the organization identifying solution opportunities I can put together a POC or proof of concept within the tool and show people what they could do what life could be like if they use service now and then when you actually want to roll something out to production and have security and some automated business rules and things like that you know I'll partner with van and say help me this is the things that we want to go ahead and do here's some of the additional harder requirements that we need to solve here but yeah I'm capable of going in and doing stuff to it but the job of pieces and things like that I let the experts handle that so what makes a good developer and how does that compare to what makes a good service now developer there's got to be similarities or their differences there are slight differences what makes a good service now developers that you're aware of the best practice and you use the proprietary functions within the system some of the stuff comes with out of box and and depending on what your requirements are maybe you don't want to skirt around that you want to use that because you know you when things change on the service and Alfre you don't want your stuff to break so a good service now developer will take into account the existing out of box functionality things that you can figure and then you would code and help support that so that when you do changes and upgrades to that then your stuff wouldn't break so it's just about being conscious about what's best practice supporting the outer box functions when it's appropriate and and versus a regular developer well you wouldn't you might not have a system that you're working with you're just creating your own application so that's the general difference which you know you must be started about something else what you've seen at the very excited about your nieces and yeah so talk about what you want you've seen that's got you it's very it's very very nice and I see there has a presence that's a good idea about having a chat and the ability to do that and and I what I really like is the more support behind the mobil feature because in today it's we have the mobile feature but it but what we need may not it may not be fully supported yet but i see in geneva they're making a big push into the mobile app space and then I think that's when mobile apps going to start taking off for service now when we get to Geneva the real-time peace with angular yes that definitely supply yes okay all right a call so let's talk about n van both of you guys have one point to weigh in on this so let's take a hypothetical situation in healthcare you guys get relatively new to healthcare so you come up with a fresh perspective describe a typical healthcare situation may be using a variety of tools and a lot of stovepipes a lot of inefficiencies describe that situation and how you get from there to where you want to be and what is that state and how do you get there so one of the things that you know we're focusing on right now is standardized processes so in IT we're battling kind of the firefighting or the being a very reactive so if we can get everybody to fall into place with a standard process that allow us to have a very similar experience from the hospital with IT so if a doctor calls in they'll they'll have the very similar experience each and every time as opposed to it being somewhat varied or they have their their hook up their IT hook up if you will right the other kind of interesting piece is we do a lot of rounding so we go to the hospital and we try to find out what's better and in doing that I noticed that we have a lot of paper sheets where we file you know if a piece of equipments broken or anything you'd help with something at the hospital they're actually filling out a piece of paper it's a form for that there's a form he's a paper form you know there's an app for that will and help you there's a fourth with us it's a foreigner or stack of paper I'm in you know our field service your I'm printed if you want that's right good scan it yeah um so our field services reps then go through every morning and they collect these pieces of paper and then they dispatch out some additional people to go fix these things or replace the items I'm you know what I'd like to see is you know a mobile device there and it's just you know right there for them to be able to do that I think those are some prime opportunities that are kind of the low-hanging fruit for us from an IT perspective but I also think that there's some great things that we could do outside of IT on this platform you know supply chain managing some of the you know needle sticks you know if you take a use case like that it's a huge challenge in healthcare today and when you have a practitioner who sticks themselves with the needle they have to go and fill out a form they have to go to occupational health they have to go and do all of these different things there's a set process behind that um you know it'd be nice for them to be able to log it from their mobile device that they had this issue they would get some sort of task or some sort of notification this is hey now your next step in this process is to go do this it gets checked off that way and you can confirm that that practitioner followed the appropriate steps and then what really excites me is the opportunity to do analysis behind that so is it the the nurse who's working the 18-hour shift that always gets the needle sticks and those are higher is that the night shift is it this specific specific area that's having an issue you can start compiling some of that data and doing a lot of the reporting out of service now on how could we how could we be better I would think it's awfully challenging to do some of that analysis if it's on spreadsheets and paper and things like that now doctors aren't known for being the most aggressive users of technology at least historically uh maybe that's unfair has that changed I think I disagree with that because I think you're seeing significant significant advances in health care today and I think they're looking for technology you know I ran into a physician the other day and he's been working at the hospital for 50-plus years and he's in he says oh you're from IT and I said I am and he says when are we gonna get better technology and I thought that was really interesting because I think it shows that they're really wanting more from us he's on that's why I'm here I'm here to help so van what are some of the applications that you're working on developing or getting adopted what kind of just about everything anything like out of box like incident helping change cmdb Service Catalog discovery and then most recently I I developed and get me and my team developed a social media management app and so you know I can fix you can help control Twitter feeds and stuff like that so and then there's we also have custom apps that that might sort of support an existing medical system and so we review the process for that and then we custom-built out that request system so a request for an enhancement might come in and there'd be a workflow behind that but it's not an incident a change or a Service Catalog requests doctors tweet my corporate corporate tweets perfectly i guess it could be so what is the social media management app to that's interesting basically it would it would prevent accidental inappropriate treats or controversial treats for the organization and you would store the credentials in service now and so none of your social media team but actually need to know the credentials and so you give them the ability to post to the social media but they would have to go through service now they have to submit a suggestion for a post and it would go through a workflow and a review and there would be some of that I would have the final say and the final edit on that post and they can polish it up and make it look good and then it would say post it now and then it would go out from service now and actually post it on the twitter feed and this way you can prevent you know if their people are leaving and coming you don't have to keep changing the password you can just give a masses to service now you can just take it away so it is also much secure and it prevents people from accidentally posting stuff in sizing us that's a real concern in today's industry about accidentally posting such does that work so i have my service now credentials yeah and then i have access it's it's a access controls to this app yeah you have you would get access to service now you'd open up a record producer and you'd submit a suggestion for a post so let's say I worked in department XYZ and I say you know our company should really talk about this out there and so I would submit this post suggestion it would go through a workflow behind the scenes and it would get reviewed and if they feel that you know what we really should be talking about this then they'll review it no maybe work with a couple of people to polish it up and then they'll post it and the person who suggested it doesn't need to know the credentials but they got their post out there and so that's the power of service now you don't have to give the credential salad so is that is that how it works is pretty pretty much anybody can make a suggestion anyone can make a sort of a user-generated content I here within the organization yeah you'd get everyone to participate maybe it's just not the social media team anymore you get feedback from the entire organ asian about what they feel should be out there that's relevant to their area and maybe you didn't know that that should be something you're talking about and so you'd get that feedback you'd get to review it and maybe you don't want to post it out or maybe you do and if you do you can get some work notes and discussions on the suggestive post and when you're ready you can post it up through service now to the app now would you for instance take that app and put it in in the store in theory would you do that yeah it would be on share I mean for others too yeah yeah okay have you done that or are you planning on doing that trying to do that yeah you see the charge for it no no okay that's cool great i love free apps but I mean a lot of people want to put stuff in the store so they can you know make money right your motivation is the major Shara sharing knowledge and just help people I mean it's it's it's not a complicated program or anything like that but it's it done okay so what why recreated yeah now what's the general philosophy with sort of developing applications now that the stores here is this whole ecosystem make or buy builder by that's the what's the philosophy or I guess it depends on whether you have a big team if you have a team of 20 X developer's then you could build it yourself to exactly to your specifications and if your team is small and you're relatively small company maybe it's worth it you just buy the app there's also an advantage to making it because then you can support it you know exactly what's behind it I think you know people are going to download off of share and like put applications on the platform they need to thoroughly understand how that application was built and so that they can understand all the business rules and the logic that comes in from a management perspective I think that's really really important to vet out how those apps are been configured we could talk about services so a lot of large service organizations here systems integrators folks that are you know pretty astute on best practice within service now an IT Service Management or in your experiences past experience cars experience are you using service providers how are you using them what would you recommend in that regards a lot of people like oh wow that's a lot of money but we're talking about the family jewels here too so you have to be careful so what would you recommend there and what's your experience been so when I was at the telecommunications organization we used a lot of different partners and in what we found is that each partner kind of brings a different strengths and that really allowed us to leverage you know one partner who's really nailed asset management for example that's one that we want to partner with asset management but maybe not on HR case management another partner could be really good at you know governance risk and compliance and bring a really strong you know strong suite there that's what we want to partner with I'm kind of finding a little bit of a shift now um you know I prefer to use service now professional services you know it's the one back to Pat one throat to choke kind of thing and but they also you know are able to tap into a huge consulting you know practice so if I'm leading an implementation in healthcare I can partner with them and say I want people that have health care experience and when I was at telecommunications I said hey I need somebody that has telecommunications experience they brought their a-game to the telecommunication space so it's really important because I think while everybody does incident management there are specific use cases for these different industries and things that are the I gotchas and they've been through those things and they can bring that knowledge and I think that that's worth you know the money that they charge is bringing the blog's up this health care provider and they did it this way and this is what they found don't do that you know we've gotten a lot of help on our recent project in that area just don't do this do it this way you know specific to our our guidelines writing for our industry we're running out of time you have a van a couple couple final questions man from your perspective coming from help desk now throw them in the application development role what's the one action item you would give you know to your peers what should they be focused on to be successful as a developer I think they would need to focus more on the business and be more you know listening and gathering requirements because i think you know there might be like a developer role and that business systems analyst role and not that that's not important but it would help the developer if they had a general understanding of the business and the flow of that so I think if they could extend just beyond being a developer fully if they could understand the business in the process that would definitely help them question and think about whether what they're building even though it's based off the requirements is really the best way to do it because they have the understanding of the business process to so to call you're nodding profusely okay look van took that one what's the piece of advice you would give your your peers and be your own internal sales rep so as we're asking the development community to fill in that gap of you know the business analyst and understanding the business and coming up with creative solutions you know from a solution owner a platform owner perspective it's be the champion you know HR is not going to know the capabilities of the platform unless you're out in front of them coming up with these solutions and showing the capabilities behind it so you know be the champion because it can only benefit your organization for everybody to be using the same technology you know it's interesting IT people traditionally you wouldn't consider them the most sales oriented our marketing oriented people in the planet but you walk around this conference and and you call it use it to our champion it's a good word but internal champion internal sales people you see a lot more that it events like this generally but specifically knowledge and so that's a skill set that's new IT isn't it it's good yeah and I think you know the platform allows that right we're not spending a lot of time coding and you know being very complicated our role is really making their processes less complicated so that we can automate in the tool faster right so if I can push back on the business and say hey why are you doing it that way this is a better way to do it I'm also simplifying our lives from a development perspective and I can go to market quicker as opposed to having to build all this custom functionality to support some crazy business requirement right so I think that's why you see a lot more champions at this conference because that's the skill set that's really important to make sure you don't mess up your platform all right we'll leave it there Nicole van thanks very much thank you thanks for having us all right keep it right to everybody will be back this is knowledge 15 is the cube with the back with our next guest right after this