>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the cubes day two coverage of VMware Explorer, 22 from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, back here with you with Dave Nicholson, we have a couple of guests from VMware. Joining us, please. Welcome Jay Workman, senior director, cloud partner, and alliances marketing, and Jeff Thompson, VP cloud provider sales at VMware guys. It's great to have you on the program. >>Ah, good to be here. Thanks for having us on. >>We're gonna be talking about a really interesting topic. Sovereign cloud. What is sovereign cloud? Jeff? Why is it important, but fundamentally, what is >>It? Yeah, well, we were just talking a second ago. Aren't we? And it's not about royalty. So yeah, data sovereignty is really becoming super important. It's about the regulation and control of data. So lots of countries now are being very careful and advising companies around where to place data and the jurisdictional controls mandate that personal data or otherwise has to be secured. We ask, we have to have access controls around it and privacy controls around it. So data sovereign clouds are clouds that have been built by our cloud providers in, in, in VMware that specifically satisfy the requirements of those jurisdictions and regulated industries. So we've built a, a little program around that. We launched it about a year ago and continuing to add cloud providers to that. >>Yeah, and I, I think it's also important just to build on what Jeff said is, is who can access that data is becoming increasingly important data is, is almost in it's. It is becoming a bit of a currency. There's a lot of value in data and securing that data is, is becoming over the years increasingly important. So it's, it's not like we built a problem or we created a solution for problem that didn't exist. It's gotten it's, it's been a problem for a while. It's getting exponentially bigger data is expanding and growing exponentially, and it's becoming increasingly important for organizations and companies to realize where my data sits, who can access it, what types of data needs to go and what type of clouds. And it's very, very aligned with multi-cloud because some data can sit in a, in a public cloud, which is fine, but some data needs to be secure. It needs to be resident within country. And so this is, this is what we're addressing through our partners. >>Yeah, I, yeah, I was just gonna add to that. I think there's a classification there there's data residency, and then there's data sovereignty. So residency is just about where is the data, which country is it in sovereignty is around who can access that data. And that's the critical aspect of, of data sovereignty who's got control and access to that data. And how do we make sure that all the controls are in place to make sure that only the right people can get access to that data? Yeah. >>So let's, let's sort of build from the ground up an example, and let's use Western Europe as an example, just because state to state in the United States, although California is about to adopt European standards for privacy in a, in a unique, in a unique, unique way, pick a country in, in Europe, I'm a service provider. I have an offering and that offering includes a stack of hardware and I'm running what we frequently refer to as the STDC or software defined data center stack. So I've got NEX and I've got vs N and I've got vSphere and I'm running and I have a cloud and you have all of the operational tools around that, and you can spin up VMs and render under applications there. And here we are within the borders of this country, what makes it a sovereign cloud at that? So at that point, is that a sovereign cloud or? >>No, not yet. Not it's close. I mean, you nailed, >>What's >>A secret sauce. You nailed the technology underpinning. So we've got 4,500 plus cloud provider partners around the world. Less than 10% of those partners are running the full STDC stack, which we've branded as VMware cloud verified. So the technology underpinning from our perspective is the starting point. Okay. For sovereignty. So they, they, they need that right. Technology. Okay. >>Verified is required for sovereign. Yes. >>Okay. Cloud verified is the required technology stack for sovereign. So they've got vSphere vs. A NSX in there. Okay. A lot of these partners are also offering a multitenant cloud with VMware cloud director on top of that, which is great. That's the starting point. But then we've, we've set a list of standards above and beyond that, in addition to the technology, they've gotta meet certain jurisdiction requirements, certain local compliance requirements and certifications. They've gotta be able to address the data re data residency requirements of their particular jurisdiction. So it's going above and beyond. But to your point, it does vary by country. >>Okay. So, so in this hypothetical example, this is this country. You a stand, I love it. When people talk about Stan, people talk about EMIA and you know, I, I love AMEA food. Isn't AIAN food. One. There's no such thing as a European until you have an Italian, a Britain, a German yep. In Florida arguing about how our beer and our coffee is terrible. Right. Right. Then they're all European. They go home and they don't like each other. Yeah. So, but let's just pretend that there's a thing called Europe. So this, so there's this, so we've got a border, we know residency, right. Because it physically is here. Yep. But what are the things in terms of sovereignty? So you're talking about a lot of kind of certification and validation, making sure that, that everything maps to those existing rules. So is, this is, this is a lot of this administrative and I mean, administrative in the, in the sort of state administrative terminology, >>I I'm let's build on your example. Yeah. So we were talking about food and obviously we know the best food in the world comes from England. >>Of course it does. Yeah. I, no doubt. I agree. I Don not get that. I do. I do do agree. Yeah. >>So UK cloud, fantastic partner for us. Okay. Whether they're one of our first sovereign cloud providers in the program. So UK cloud, they satisfied the requirements with the local UK government. They built out their cloud verified. They built out a stack specifically that enables them to satisfy the requirements of being a sovereign cloud provider. They have local data centers inside the UK. The data from the local government is placed into those data centers. And it's managed by UK people on UK soil so that they know the privacy, they know the security aspects, the compliance, all of that wrapped up on top of a secure SDDC platform. Okay. Satisfies the requirements of the UK government, that they are managing that data in a sovereign way that, that, that aligns to the jurisdictional control that they expect from a company like UK cloud. Well, >>I think to build on that, a UK cloud is an example of certain employees at UK, UK cloud will have certain levels of clearance from the UK government who can access and work on certain databases that are stored within UK cloud. So they're, they're addressing it from multiple fronts, not just with their hardware, software data center framework, but actually at the individual compliance level and individual security clearance level as to who can go in and work on that data. And it's not just a governmental, it's not a public sector thing. I mean, any highly regulated industry, healthcare, financial services, they're all gonna need this type of data protection and data sovereignty. >>Can this work in a hyperscaler? So you've got you, have, you have VMC AVS, right? GC V C >>O >>CVAs O CVS. Thank you. Can it be, can, can a sovereign cloud be created on top of physical infrastructure that is in one of those hyperscalers, >>From our perspective, it's not truly sovereign. If, if it's a United States based company operating in Germany, operating in the UK and a local customer or organization in Germany, or the UK wants to deploy workloads in that cloud, we wouldn't classify that as totally sovereign. Okay. Because by virtue of the cloud act in the United States, that gives the us government rights to request or potentially view some of that data. Yeah. Because it's, it's coming out of a us based operator data center sitting on foreign soil so that the us government has some overreach into that. And some of that data may actually be stored. Some of the metadata may reside back in the us and the customer may not know. So certain workloads would be ideally suited for that. But for something that needs to be truly sovereign and local data residency, that it wouldn't be a good fit. I think that >>Perspectives key thing, going back to residency versus sovereignty. Yeah. It can be, let's go to our UK example. It can be on a hyperscaler in the UK now it's resident in the UK, but some of the metadata, the profiling information could be accessible by the entity in the United States. For example, there now it's not sovereign anymore. So that's the key difference between a, what we view as a pro you know, a pure sovereign cloud play and then maybe a hyperscaler that's got more residency than sovereignty. >>Yeah. We talk a lot about partnerships. This seems to be a unique opportunity for a certain segment of partners yeah. To give that really is an opportunity for them to have a line of business established. That's unique from some of the hyperscale cloud providers. Yeah. Where, where sort of the, the modesty of your size might be an advantage if you're in a local. Yes. You're in Italy and you are a service provider. There sounds like a great fit, >>That's it? Yeah. You've always had the, the beauty of our program. We have 4,500 cloud providers and obviously not, all of them are able to provide a data, a sovereign cloud. We have 20 in the program today in, in the country. You you'd expect them to be in, you know, the UK, Italy, Italy, France, Germany, over in Asia Pacific. We have in Australia and New Zealand, Japan, and, and we have Canada and Latin America to, to dovetail, you know, the United States. But those are the people that have had these long term relationships with the local governments, with these regulated industries and providing those services for many, many years. It's just that now data sovereignty has become more important. And they're able to go that extra mile and say, Hey, we've been doing this pretty much, you know, for decades, but now we're gonna put a wrap and some branding around it and do these extra checks because we absolutely know that we can provide the sovereignty that's required. >>And that's been one of the beautiful things about the entire initiative is we're actually, we're learning a lot from our partners in these countries to Jeff's point have been doing this. They've been long time, VMware partners they've been doing sovereignty. And so collectively together, we're able to really establish a pretty robust framework from, from our perspective, what does data sovereignty mean? Why does it matter? And then that's gonna help us work with the customers, help them decide which workloads need to go and which type of cloud. And it dovetails very, very nicely into a multi-cloud that's a reality. So some of those workloads can sit in the public sector and the hyperscalers and some of 'em need to be sovereign. Yeah. So it's, it's a great solution for our customers >>When you're in customer conversations, especially as, you know, data sovereign to be is becomes a global problem. Where, who are you talking to? Are you talking to CIOs? Are you talking to chief data officers? I imagine this is a pretty senior level conversation. >>Yeah. I it's, I think it's all of the above. Really. It depends. Who's managing the data. What type of customer is it? What vertical market are they in? What compliance regulations are they are they beholden to as a, as an enterprise, depending on which country they're in and do they have a need for a public cloud, they may already be all localized, you know? So it really depends, but it, it could be any of those. It's generally I think a fair, fairly senior level conversation. And it's, it's, it's, it's consultancy, it's us understanding what their needs are working with our partners and figuring out what's the best solution for them. >>And I think going back to, they've probably having those conversations for a long time already. Yeah. Because they probably have had workloads in there for years, maybe even decades. It's just that now sovereignty has become, you know, a more popular, you know, requirements to satisfy. And so they've gone going back to, they've gone the extra mile with those as the trusted advisor with those people. They've all been working with for many, many years to do that work. >>And what sort of any examples you mentioned some of the highly regulated industries, healthcare, financial services, any customer come to mind that you think really articulates the value of what VMware's delivering through its service through its cloud provider program. That makes the obvious why VMware an obvious answer? >>Wow. I, I, I get there's, there's so many it's, it's actually, it's each of our different cloud providers. They bring their win wise to us. And we just have, we have a great library now of assets that are on our sovereign cloud website of those win wires. So it's many industries, many, many countries. So you can really pick, pick your, your choice. There. That's >>A good problem >>To have, >>To the example of UK cloud they're, they're really focused on the UK government. So some of them aren't gonna be referenced. Well, we may have indication of a major financial services company in Australia has deployed with AU cloud, one of our partners. So we we've also got some semi blind references like that. And, and to some degree, a lot of these are maintained as fairly private wins and whatnot for obvious security reasons, but, and we're building it and building that library up, >>You mentioned the number 4,500, a couple of times, you, you referencing VMware cloud provider partners or correct program partners. So VCP P yes. So 45, 4500 is the, kind of, is the, is the number, you know, >>That's the number >>Globally of our okay. >>Partners that are offering a commercial cloud service based at a minimum with vSphere and they're. And many of 'em have many more of our technologies. And we've got little under 10% of those that have the cloud verified designation that are running that full STDC, stack >>Somebody, somebody Talli up, all of that. And the argument has been made that, that rep that, that would mean that VMware cloud. And although some of it's on IAS from hyperscale cloud providers. Sure. But that, that rep, that means that VMware has the third or fourth largest cloud on the planet already right now. >>Right. Yep. >>Which is kind of interesting because yeah. If you go back to when, what 2016 or so when VMC was at least baned about yeah. Is that right? A lot of people were skeptical. I was skeptical very long history with VMware at the time. And I was skeptical. I I'm thinking, nah, it's not gonna work. Yeah. This is desperation. Sorry, pat. I love you. But it's desperation. Right. AWS, their attitude is in this transaction. Sure. Send us some customers we'll them. Yeah. Right. I very, very cynical about it. Completely proved me wrong. Obviously. Where did it go? Went from AWS to Azure to right. Yeah. To GCP, to Oracle, >>Oracle, Alibaba, >>Alibaba. Yep. Globally. >>We've got IBM. Yep. Right. >>Yeah. So along the way, it would be easy to look at that trajectory and say, okay, wow, hyperscale cloud. Yeah. Everything's consolidating great. There's gonna be five or six or 10 of these players. And that's it. And everybody else is out in the cold. Yeah. But it turns out that long tail, if you look at the chart of who the largest VCP P partners are, that long tail of the smaller ones seem to be carving out specialized yes. Niches where you can imagine now, at some point in the future, you sum up this long tail and it becomes larger than maybe one of the hyperscale cloud providers. Right. I don't think a lot of people predicted that. I think, I think people predicted the demise of VMware and frankly, a lot of people in the VMware ecosystem, just like they predicted the demise of the mainframe. Sure. The storage area network fill in the blank. I >>Mean, Jeff and I we've oh yeah. We've been on the, Jeff's been a little longer than I have, but we've been working together for 10 plus years on this. And we've, we've heard that many times. Yeah. Yeah. Our, our ecosystem has grown over the years. We've seen some consolidation, some M and a activity, but we're, we're not even actively recruiting partners and it's growing, we're focused on helping our partners gain more, share internally, gain, more share at wallet, but we're still getting organic growth in the program. Really. So it, it shows, I think that there is value in what we can offer them as a platform to build a cloud on. >>Yeah. What's been interesting is there's there's growth and there's some transition as well. Right? So there's been traditional cloud providers. Who've built a cloud in their data center, some sovereign, some not. And then there's other partners that are adopting VCP P because of our SA. So we've either converted some technology from product into SA or we've built net new SA or we've acquired companies that have been SA only. And now we have a bigger portfolio that service providers, cloud providers, managed service providers are all interested in. So you get resellers channel partners. Who've historically been doing ELAs and reselling to end customers. They're transitioning their business into doing recurring revenue and the only game in town where you really wanna do recurring revenues, VCP P. So our ecosystem is both growing because our cloud providers with their data center are doing more with our customers. And then we're adding more managed service providers because of our SA portfolio. And that, that, that combo, that one, two punch is creating a much bigger VCP P ecosystem overall. >>Yeah. >>Impressive. >>Do you think we have a better idea of what sovereign cloud means? Yes. I think we do. >>It's not Royal. >>It's all about royalty, >>All royalty. What are some of the things Jeff, as we look on the horizon, obviously seven to 10,000 people here at, at VMwares where people really excited to be back. They want to hear it from VMware. They wanna hear from its partner ecosystem, the community. What are some of the things that you think are on the horizon where sovereign cloud is concerned that are really opportunities yeah. For businesses to get it right. >>Yeah. We're in the early days of this, I think there's still a whole bunch of rules, regulatory laws that have not been defined yet. So I think there's gonna be some more learning. There's gonna be some top down guidance like Gaia X in Europe. That's the way that they're defining who gets access and control over what data and what's in. And what's out of that. So we're gonna get more of these Gaia X type things happening around the world, and they're all gonna be slightly different. Everyone's gonna have to understand what they are, how to interpret and then build something around them. So we need to stay on top of that, myself and Jay, to make sure that we've got the right cloud providers in the right space to capitalize on that, build out the sovereign cloud program over time and make sure that what they're building to support aligns with these different requirements that are out there across different countries. So it's an evolving landscape. That's >>Yeah. And one of the things too, we're also doing from a product perspective to better enable partners to, to address these sovereign cloud workloads is where we have, we have gaps maybe in our portfolio is we're partner partnering with some of our ISVs, like a, Konic like a Forex vem. So we can give our partners object storage or ransomware protection to add on to their sovereign cloud service, all accessible through our cloud director consult. So we're, we're enhancing the program that way. And to Jeff's point earlier, we've got 20 partners today. We're hoping to double that by the end of our fiscal year and, and just take a very methodical approach to growth of the program. >>Sounds great guys, early innings though. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about what software and cloud is describing it to us, and also talking about the difference between that data residency and all the, all of the challenges and the, in the landscape that customers are facing. They can go turn to VMware and its ecosystem for that help. We appreciate your insights and your time. Guys. Thank >>You >>For >>Having us. Our >>Pleasure. Appreciate it >>For our guests and Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching the cube. This is the end of day, two coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022. Have a great rest of your day. We'll see you tomorrow.

>>We'll come back to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2021, the industry's most important hybrid event. Very few hybrid events, of course, in the last two years. And the cube is excited to be here. Uh, this is our ninth year covering AWS reinvent this the 10th reinvent we're here with Joel Minnick, who the vice president of product and partner marketing at smoking hot company, Databricks and Greg Rokita, who is executive director of technology at Edmonds. If you're buying a car or leasing a car, you gotta go to Edmund's. We're gonna talk about busting data silos, guys. Great to see you again. >>Welcome. Welcome. Glad to be here. >>All right. So Joel, what the heck is a lake house? This is all over the place. Everybody's talking about lake house. What is it? >>And it did well in a nutshell, a Lakehouse is the ability to have one unified platform to handle all of your traditional analytics workloads. So your BI and reporting Trisha, the lake, the workloads that you would have for your data warehouse on the same platform as the workloads that you would have for data science and machine learning. And so if you think about kind of the way that, uh, most organizations have built their infrastructure in the cloud today, what we have is generally customers will land all their data in a data lake and a data lake is fantastic because it's low cost, it's open. It's able to handle lots of different kinds of data. Um, but the challenges that data lakes have is that they don't necessarily scale very well. It's very hard to govern data in a data lake house. It's very hard to manage that data in a data lake, sorry, in a, in a data lake. >>And so what happens is that customers then move the data out of a data lake into downstream systems and what they tend to move it into our data warehouses to handle those traditional reporting kinds of workloads that they have. And they do that because data warehouses are really great at being able to have really great scale, have really great performance. The challenge though, is that data warehouses really only work for structured data. And regardless of what kind of data warehouse you adopt, all data warehouse and platforms today are built on some kind of proprietary format. So once you've put that data into the data warehouse, that's, that is kind of what you're locked into. The promise of the data lake house was to say, look, what if we could strip away all of that complexity and having to move data back and forth between all these different systems and keep the data exactly where it is today and where it is today is in the data lake. >>And then being able to apply a transaction layer on top of that. And the Databricks case, we do that through a technology and open source technology called data lake, or sorry, Delta lake. And what Delta lake allows us to do is when you need it, apply that performance, that reliability, that quality, that scale that you would expect out of a data warehouse directly on your data lake. And if I can do that, then what I'm able to do now is operate from one single source of truth that handles all of my analytics workloads, both my traditional analytics workloads and my data science and machine learning workloads, and being able to have all of those workloads on one common platform. It means that now not only do I get much, much more simple in the way that my infrastructure works and therefore able to operate at much lower costs, able to get things to production much, much faster. >>Um, but I'm also able to now to leverage open source in a much bigger way being that lake house is inherently built on an open platform. Okay. So I'm no longer locked into any kind of data format. And finally, probably one of the most, uh, lasting benefits of a lake house is that all the roles that have to take that have to touch my data for my data engineers, to my data analyst, my data scientists, they're all working on the same data, which means that collaboration that has to happen to go answer really hard problems with data. I'm now able to do much, much more easy because those silos that traditionally exist inside of my environment no longer have to be there. And so Lakehouse is that is the promise to have one single source of truth, one unified platform for all of my data. Okay, >>Great. Thank you for that very cogent description of what a lake house is now. Let's I want to hear from the customer to see, okay, this is what he just said. True. So actually, let me ask you this, Greg, because the other problem that you, you didn't mention about the data lake is that with no schema on, right, it gets messy and Databricks, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, has begun to solve that problem, right? Through series of tooling and AI. That's what Delta liked us. It's a man, like it's a managed service. Everybody thought you were going to be like the cloud era of spark and Brittany Britain, a brilliant move to create a managed service. And it's worked great. Now everybody has a managed service, but so can you paint a picture at Edmonds as to what you're doing with, maybe take us through your journey the early days of a dupe, a data lake. Oh, that sounds good. Throw it in there, paint a picture as to how you guys are using data and then tie it into what y'all just said. >>As Joel said, that they'll the, it simplifies the architecture quite a bit. Um, in a modern enterprise, you have to deal with a variety of different data sources, structured semi-structured and unstructured in the form of images and videos. And with Delta lake and built a lake, you can have one system that handles all those data sources. So what that does is that basically removes the issue of multiple systems that you have to administer. It lowers the cost, and it provides consistency. If you have multiple systems that deal with data, you always arise as the issue as to which data has to be loaded into which system. And then you have issues with consistency. Once you have issues with consistency, business users, as analysts will stop trusting your data. So that was very critical for us to unify the system of data handling in the one place. >>Additionally, you have a massive scalability. So, um, I went to the talk with from apple saying that, you know, he can process two years worth of data. Instead of just two days in an Edmonds, we have this use case of backfilling the data. So often we changed the logic and went to new. We need to reprocess massive amounts of data with the lake house. We can reprocess months worth of data in, in a matter of minutes or hours. And additionally at the data lake houses based on open, uh, open standards, like parquet that allowed us, allowed us to basically hope open source and third-party tools on top of the Delta lake house. Um, for example, a Mattson, we use a Matson for data discovery, and finally, uh, the lake house approach allows us for different skillsets of people to work on the same source data. We have analysts, we have, uh, data engineers, we have statisticians and data scientists using their own programming languages, but working on the same core of data sets without worrying about duplicating data and consistency issues between the teams. >>So what, what is, what are the primary use cases where you're using house Lakehouse Delta? >>So, um, we work, uh, we have several use cases, one of them more interesting and important use cases as vehicle pricing, you have used the Edmonds. So, you know, you go to our website and you use it to research vehicles, but it turns out that pricing and knowing whether you're getting a good or bad deal is critical for our, uh, for our business. So with the lake house, we were able to develop a data pipeline that ingests the transactions, curates the transactions, cleans them, and then feeds that curated a curated feed into the machine learning model that is also deployed on the lake house. So you have one system that handles this huge complexity. And, um, as you know, it's very hard to find unicorns that know all those technologies, but because we have flexibility of using Scala, Java, uh, Python and SQL, we have different people working on different parts of that pipeline on the same system and on the same data. So, um, having Lakehouse really enabled us to be very agile and allowed us to deploy new sources easily when we, when they arrived and fine tune the model to decrease the error rates for the price prediction. So that process is ongoing and it's, it's a very agile process that kind of takes advantage of the, of the different skill sets of different people on one system. >>Because you know, you guys democratized by car buying, well, at least the data around car buying because as a consumer now, you know, I know what they're paying and I can go in of course, but they changed their algorithms as well. I mean, the, the dealers got really smart and then they got kickbacks from the manufacturer. So you had to get smarter. So it's, it's, it's a moving target, I guess. >>Great. The pricing is actually very complex. Like I, I don't have time to explain it to you, but knowing, especially in this crazy market inflationary market where used car prices are like 38% higher year over year, and new car prices are like 10% higher and they're changing rapidly. So having very responsive pricing model is, is extremely critical. Uh, you, I don't know if you're familiar with Zillow. I mean, they almost went out of business because they mispriced their, uh, their houses. So, so if you own their stock, you probably under shorthand of it, but, you know, >>No, but it's true because I, my lease came up in the middle of the pandemic and I went to Edmonds, say, what's this car worth? It was worth like $7,000. More than that. Then the buyout costs the residual value. I said, I'm taking it, can't pass up that deal. And so you have to be flexible. You're saying the premises though, that open source technology and Delta lake and lake house enabled that flexible. >>Yes, we are able to ingest new transactions daily recalculate our model within less than an hour and deploy the new model with new pricing, you know, almost real time. So, uh, in this environment, it's very critical that you kind of keep up to date and ingest their latest transactions as they prices change and recalculate your model that predicts the future prices. >>Because the business lines inside of Edmond interact with the data teams, you mentioned data engineers, data scientists, analysts, how do the business people get access to their data? >>Originally, we only had a core team that was using Lakehouse, but because the usage was so powerful and easy, we were able to democratize it across our units. So other teams within software engineering picked it up and then analysts picked it up. And then even business users started using the dashboarding and seeing, you know, how the price has changed over time and seeing other, other metrics within the, >>What did that do for data quality? Because I feel like if I'm a business person, I might have context of the data that an analyst might not have. If they're part of a team that's servicing all these lines of business, did you find that the data quality, the collaboration affected data? >>Th the biggest thing for us was the fact that we don't have multiple systems now. So you don't have to load the data. Whenever you have to load the data from one system to another, there is always a lag. There's always a delay. There is always a problematic job that didn't do the copy correctly. And the quality is uncertain. You don't know which system tells you the truth. Now we just have one layer of data. Whether you do reports, whether you're data processing or whether you do modeling, they all read the same data. And the second thing is that with the dashboarding capabilities, people that were not very technical that before we could only use Tableau and Tableau is not the easiest thing to use as if you're not technical. Now they can use it. So anyone can see how our pricing data looks, whether you're an executive, whether you're an analyst or a casual business users, >>But Hey, so many questions, you guys are gonna have to combat. I'm gonna run out of time, but you now allow a consumer to buy a car directly. Yes. Right? So that's a new service that you launched. I presume that required new data. We give, we >>Give consumers offers. Yes. And, and that offer you >>Offered to buy my league. >>Exactly. And that offer leverages the pricing that we develop on top of the lake house. So the most important thing is accurately giving you a very good offer price, right? So if we give you a price, that's not so good. You're going to go somewhere else. If we give you price, that's too high, we're going to go bankrupt like Zillow debt, right. >>It took to enable that you're working off the same dataset. Yes. You're going to have to spin up a, did you have to inject new data? Was there a new data source that we're working on? >>Once we curate the data sources and once we clean it, we see the directly to the model. And all of those components are running on the lake house, whether you're curating the data, cleaning it or running the model. The nice thing about lake house is that machine learning is the first class citizen. If you use something like snowflake, I'm not going to slam snowflake here, but you >>Have two different use case. You have >>To, you have to load it into a different system later. You have to load it into a different system. So like good luck doing machine learning on snowflake. Right. >>Whereas, whereas Databricks, that's kind of your raison d'etre >>So what are your, your, your data engineer? I feel like I should be a salesman or something. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying that. Just, just because, you know, I was told to, like, I'm saying it because of that's our use case, >>Your use case. So question for each of you, what, what business results did you see when you went to kind of pre lake house, post lake house? What are the, any metrics you can share? And then I wonder, Joel, if you could share a sort of broader what you're seeing across your customer base, but Greg, what can you tell us? Well, >>Uh, before their lake house, we had two different systems. We had one for processing, which was still data breaks. And the second one for serving and we iterated over Nateeza or Redshift, but we figured that maintaining two different system and loading data from one to the other was a huge overhead administration security costs. Um, the fact that you had to consistency issues. So the fact that you can have one system, um, with, uh, centralized data, solves all those issues. You have to have one security mechanism, one administrative mechanism, and you don't have to load the data from one system to the other. You don't have to make compromises. >>It's scale is not a problem because of the cloud, >>Because you can spend clusters at will for different use cases. So your clusters are independent. You have processing clusters that are not affecting your serving clusters. So, um, in the past, if you were running a serving, say on Nateeza or Redshift, if you were doing heavy processing, your reports would be affected, but now all those clusters are separated. So >>Consumer data consumer can take that data from the producer independ >>Using its own cluster. Okay. >>Yeah. I'll give you the final word, Joel. I know it's been, I said, you guys got to come back. This is what have you seen broadly? >>Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Greg's point about scale. It's an interesting one. So if you look at cross the entire Databricks platform, the platform is launching 9 million VMs every day. Um, and we're in total processing over nine exabytes a month. So in terms of just how much data the platform is able to flow through it, uh, and still maintain a extremely high performance is, is bar none out there. And then in terms of, if you look at just kind of the macro environment of what's happening out there, you know, I think what's been most exciting to watch or what customers are experiencing traditionally or, uh, on the traditional data warehouse and kinds of workloads, because I think that's where the promise of lake house really comes into its own is saying, yes, I can run these traditional data warehousing workloads that require a high concurrency high scale, high performance directly on my data lake. >>And, uh, I think probably the two most salient data points to raise up there is, uh, just last month, Databricks announced it's set the world record for the, for the, uh, TPC D S 100 terabyte benchmark. So that is a place where Databricks at the lake house architecture, that benchmark is built to measure data warehouse performance and the lake house beat data warehouse and sat their own game in terms of overall performance. And then what's that spends from a price performance standpoint, it's customers on Databricks right now are able to enjoy that level of performance at 12 X better price performance than what cloud data warehouses provide. So not only are we jumping on this extremely high scale and performance, but we're able to do it much, much more efficiently. >>We're gonna need a whole nother section second segment to talk about benchmarking that guys. Thanks so much, really interesting session and thank you and best of luck to both join the show. Thank you for having us. Very welcome. Okay. Keep it right there. Everybody you're watching the cube, the leader in high-tech coverage at AWS reinvent 2021

>>Hi everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage of eight of his public sector summit live in Washington D. C, where it's a face to face real event. I'm johN for a year host but virtual events. Hybrid events were hybrid event as well. We've got a great remote interview. Got a guest here in person, Jon Stankovic, president of cloud solutions. Smartronix and Britain was the VP of eight of his managed services, also known as A M. S with amazon web services, jOHN and jOHN and three johns here. Welcome to the cube remote >>in person. >>Hybrid. >>Thanks. Thank you. Great to be on the cube longtime viewer and I really appreciate what you >>do for fun to be here remotely but I feel like it right there. >>Yeah, I love the hybrid if it's only gonna get better next time will be in the metaverse soon. But uh, jOHn on the line there, I want to ask you with AWS managed services, take us through what you guys are doing with Smart Trust because this is an interesting service you guys are working together. How's that relates at the table for us. >>Yeah, well, you know, we're really excited about this announcement, We've been working with Smartronix since we launched A. M S 4.5 years ago. So we've been able to build up working with them, you know, a huge library of automation capabilities and this really just formalised as that in an offer for our joint customers where we can bring the expertise from AWS and Smartronix and offer a full solution that's highly integrated to help help our customers jointly accelerate their cloud adoption as well as their operating model transformation as they start to move to a more devops motion and they need help. We're there together to provide our expertise and make that simple for them. >>Well I appreciate the call. You john b john s over here. Js john Stankevich. Um tell me about Smart trust because you heard what's going on with devoPS to point a whole revolutions going on in devops, you're starting to see a highly accelerated modern application development environment which means that the software developers are setting the pace there, the pace car of the innovation, right? And so other teams like security or I. T. Become blockers. Blockers a drag and anchor. So the shift left on security for instance is causing a lot of problems on the security team. So all this is going on like right now so still the speed is the game. What's your take? >>Sure so absolutely. I think that's where this partnership really really excels. You know, we want customers to focus on their mission, you know, national security, health care outcomes. Um we want them to kind of take the rest off their plate. So when you say some of the quote unquote blockers around security uh Smartronix has invested heavily in a federally authorized platform that sits on top of what a WS has done from a Fed ramp and so right off the bat speed agility. We don't want our customers spending time replicating things that we've done at scale and leveraging what AWS has and so by kind of utilizing this, this joint offer all of a sudden a big part of that compliance is taken care of. Uh, and then things like devoPS, things like SRE models that you hear a lot about, we fold all that into this uh, combined service offering. >>I know a little about what you guys are doing. You mentioned SRE is very cool, but let's take a minute to explain what you guys are doing because you guys are on the cutting edge of solving a lot of problems from infrastructure fools around the deVOPS stack. What are you guys doing in the cloud services? >>Sure. So I think jOHN hit a little bit on it. But you know, we look at AMS as best in breed at scale managing core parts of the U. S. Infrastructure. What Smartronix does is many times customers have some unique requirements and we take that core kind of powered by aims and we try and fill in those kind of complementary skill sets and complementary requirements. And so something like the devops, which is basically making sure that those people developing that software, they have also the ability to manage it and on an ongoing basis. Kind of run it. We develop all the frameworks and that's part of this offering to enable that. >>What's the solution jOHN B because I think you guys don't, this is people have challenges. I want to understand those challenges. And then when they go to the external managed service, what's involved, you walk us through that? Because I think that's important. >>Yeah, sure. You know, it turns out jOHN nailed this one. That moving to the cloud can be, can be a big transformation for many, many enterprises and government teams. Right. They worked for many years and have an ecosystem in their traditional data center. But when they move to the cloud, there's a lot of moving pieces and so what we like to focus on is helping them with the undifferentiated aspects of safely and automating cloud operations. So working with, with Smartronix allows us to take what we're doing across the infrastructure services, around security, around automation, around patching instance management, container management, all of those uh, undifferentiated, heavy lifting passed by now with Smartronix and expertise across the application layer across customers, unique environments across federal and moderate the various government standards and compliance is, and we think we're able to get, take a customer um, from kind of really early stage cloud experience and rapidly deploy configure and get them into a very stable scalable posture operationally on the cloud so that they can start to invest in their people, their skills and their differentiated application on the cloud that really drive the differentiation in their business and not have to worry about best practice configurations and operational run books and, and and automation is and and and the latest dep sec ops capabilities that will pick up for them while they're training and getting, they're getting their emotions in place, >>jOHn is on the Smartronix side. Talk about the difference between scale okay. Which is a big issue with cloud these customers want to have with AMS but then you also have some scale, maybe some scale to but highly compliant environments, regulated industries, for instance, this is the hot areas because scale is unwieldy, but if you don't want get rain it in, it can be chaotic. Right? So also regulations and compliance is a huge issue. >>Yeah. What what we found is um, at times customers look at it and they just get frustrated because it can be kind of intimidating and we as a combined team really have spent a lot of time we have accelerators to walk customers through that process and a really flexible model. If they feel that they have a lot of domain expertise in it, then we'll just kind of be almost a supporter other customers look at it and say, you know, we'd like you to take the entire patch of that compliance and so highly regulated environments. Both commercial D. O. D. National Security, um federal civilian agencies, state and local, they're all looking to this and saying we really want someone that's been through things like the U. S. Audited managed service provider, things like they're managed security service provider, things like fed ramp or D. O. D. Ill four and five. And I think to be honest Smartronix has just invested heavily in that with the goal of reducing all that complexity and it's it's really been taken off and we really appreciate the partnership specifically with jOHn and uh the A. W. S. A. M. S. Team. >>All right so you guys were going together, what's the ultimate benefit to the customer? >>I can I'll give my thing right off the bat all this innovation coming out of A. W. S. Um It's fantastic but only if you have the ability to take advantage of it. And so thousands of new services being rolled out. We really want customers to be able to take advantage of that and let at times us do what we do best and let them focus on their mission. And I think that's what really AWS is all about and we just feel very fortunate to be an enabler of that >>john be talking about talking about the staffing issues too because one of the problems that we have been reporting and this has come up at every reinvest on the max. Peterson about this as well. He's promised last year was gonna train 29 million people. See how that comes out of reinvent when the report card comes back. I was kinda busting his chops a little bit there but he had a smile on his face I think is gonna hit the numbers a lot of times, Maybe people don't have an SRE they don't have a devout person or they have some staff that they're in transition or transforming this is a huge factor. What's your take on this, >>you know, that that is so important, you know, as john mentioned, it's all about helping the customers focused and and their their cloud talent is scarce and it's a scarce resource and you you want to make sure that your cloud talent is working on the cool stuff or they're going to leave and and as you train and skill, these folks, they want to focus on what really impacts the business, what's really differentiating doing, you know, doing the cloud and the necessities on operations and operational tasks and sec ops and things like that, sometimes, that's not the sexiest part of the work that the customer really wants to focus their team on. So again, I think together we're able to help drive high levels of automation and really do that day in and day out work that is not necessarily the differentiator of their business and that's going to attract and keep the best and brightest minds in these in these customers um which allows us to help them with the undifferentiated aspects of of the heavy lifting. >>Not only is availability of people, it's keeping the people, I love that great call out there, Okay, where does this go? Where's the relationship. So you guys are partnering, you have the M. S. Is going on? Strong managed services not gonna go away mormon people were using managed services. It's part of the ecosystem within the ecosystem. What's next in the relationship? >>Well, I think, you know, I'll speak first, john, I'm sure you've got some thoughts to, but you know, we've got so many things on our plate around predictive operations and the predictive capabilities that we're excited about tackling together. Obviously there's all sorts of unique applications that require even deeper capabilities and working with Smartronix to help us, you know, provide even greater insight into the application layer. So I kind of see us expanding um both horizontally as well as well as vertically and horizontally. We've got customers looking at the edge with the outpost solutions and we can snap into those capabilities as well. So there's a tremendous amount of kind of, I'd say vertical and horizontal opportunity that we can continue to expand it together, >>john your reaction, That's >>pretty right on Absolutely. I think john Berger really hit it and I think really machine learning, you know, that's a big area of focus, if you look at all this data is being collected, predictive modeling and so we have this kind of transition from a model where people were basically watching screens reacting and what the AWS MSP offer and what you know, AmS offers is really predicting, so you you're not doing that, you're not reacting, you're proactively ahead of things. And that's the honest truth is AWS is such a well run service. It just doesn't break, you know, it doesn't break like what you see in the traditional kind of legacy infrastructure. And so at times we're just continuing to climb that stack. As, as john mentioned, >>it's really interesting as you guys are, as you're talking, I'm thinking myself just go back a couple of years ago, eight years ago or so. DevoPS is a bad word. Dev's dominate up. So I was through them now, operational leverage is a huge part of this ai operations, um, the entire I. T service management being disrupted heavily by cloud operations that also facilitate rapid development models. Right? So, again, this is like under reported, but it's a really nuanced point hardened operations for security and not holding back the developers is the cloud scale. What's your guys reaction to that? >>Yeah, I completely agree. I think, you know, the automation piece of things and I think customers are still going through transitions. You know, traditionally managed services means a big staff and it's like I said, sitting there watching screens and you flip that model where you have developers actually deploying code and infrastructure to support it. It's, you know, it's very transitional and very transformative and I think that's where an offering, like what we've really partnered on really, really helps because at times it can be overwhelming for customers and we just want to simplify that. And as I've said, let them focus on their mission. >>Amen one last question before we break, because I was talking to another partner, a big part of AWS. Um, and we're talking about SAS versus solutions and sometimes if you're too Sassy, you're not really building a custom solution, but you can have the best of both worlds. A little professional services, maybe some headroom on the stack, if you will your building solutions. So the next question is, as you guys put this cutting edge innovative innovative solution together, how are your customers consuming it? Like what's the consumption? I'm assuming there must be happy because a lot of heavy lifting being taken away, they don't have to deal with house the contract process. >>Well, you know, I think, you know, we have the opportunity, we support customers and kind of all modes of their application stack. So, you know, a full stacks solution. You know, even a legacy architecture moving to the cloud requires a high degree of automation to support it. And then as those applications become modernized over time, they become much more cloud native at some point, they might even become a full stack Starzz offer. So many of our customers actually run their SAAS platform leveraging our capability as well. So, you know, I think it gives the customer a lot of optionality uh, and future kind of growth as they modernize their application stack. >>Yeah, john your reaction. Absolutely. >>I think one of the greatest benefits is it's freeing up funds to do mission work. And so instead of spending time procuring hardware and managing it and leasing data center space, they literally have more funding. And so we've seen customers literally transform their business because this piece of it's done more efficiently and they have really excess and really additional funding to do their mission. >>We love the business model innovation, faster um, higher quality, easy and inexpensive. That's the flywheel gentlemen, Thank you for coming on and get the three. John john thank you. Vice President Cloud Solutions. That Smartronix, thank you for coming on. John Barrington BP of amazon websites managed. There is a also known as AWS and A M. S. A W. S got upside down. W. M. Looks the same. Thank you guys for coming. I appreciate it. Thank you. We appreciate great great Cube covers here. eight of us summit we're live on the ground and were remote. It's a hybrid event. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm

>>From around the globe, it's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. >>We continue our coverage here on the cube of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm John Wallace, glad to be with you here and glad that you've joined us for an important discussion. You know, a lot of companies and many industries are making a very concerted effort toward promoting greater diversity and inclusion within their various workforces. And the renewable energy industry is certainly a big part of that movement. And here to talk about how AWS is supporting that and what the industry itself is doing. I'm proud to and pleased to welcome three guests. We have Shannon Kellogg with us from AWS. He's the vice president of public policy for the Americas. Shannon, thanks for being with us here on the cube. >>You back. Thank you. And great >>Whetstone, who is the president and CEO of the American council on renewable energy. We're going to call it a core from here on out, and also joining us Colleen Pickford, who was the EVP at ACOR, and welcome to both of you. Glad we could have it here on the cube. Glad to be here. John's great. You bet. Absolutely looking forward to this discussion first off, Shannon, let me, let me turn it over to you. I know, uh, AWS had some fairly significant announcements, uh, very recently about renewable and, um, you know, launching that on, around reinvent 2020, if he would take us through that a little bit about that commitment and what exactly that news was all about. >>Well, thank you on, uh, Amazon overall, uh, made a very, uh, significant announcement, uh, last week of 26, uh, renewable energy projects around the world. Uh, so many of those here in the U S but also, uh, many of those, uh, internationally and, um, the announcements, uh, collectively last week, along with what we've already announced previously in renewable energy projects now makes us the largest, uh, corporate, uh, buyer of renewable energy in the world. And so we're really excited about that. Um, this is part of our longterm, uh, efforts, uh, to be a hundred percent renewable, um, in our, uh, uh, footprint around the AWS infrastructure, uh, footprint, uh, but also a part of the broader, uh, commitment that we have at Amazon, including around climate and sustainability. So, uh, we were really super excited about last week from now. >>Yeah. Can you give me an idea of the flavor of the projects? I mean, you're talking about more than two dozen, uh, and as you said there around the world, so I assumed pretty wide variety of impacts and, and of, uh, initiatives as well, but maybe just to give those watching at home and idea of what the scale at this point. >>Well, it's a mix of, uh, solar and wind, uh, projects. Uh, like I said, both in the U S and abroad. Um, we had previously announced, uh, uh, several, um, solar projects in the Commonwealth of Virginia. For example, with last week's announcements, we added more, uh, solar, uh, in Virginia, we had previously, uh, uh, announced, uh, wind projects in Ohio and we added more, uh, wind, uh, and, um, uh, you know, large scale utility scale projects in Ohio. And so we also included other States of course, are in the U S and in countries as well, including, uh, one of the first offshore, uh, projects, uh, offshore wind projects that we've done, uh, with, uh, in this case with, uh, off of the coast of Germany. >>All right, Greg, when you hear about that kind of commitment that AWS is making, uh, in terms of, uh, not only from a geographical standpoint, but from a variety of standpoint, we're talking about when we're talking about solar, um, I mean, what is, what stands out to you with regard to the, the impact of that kind of commitment and that kind of initiative >>Kale it's really impactful. It's such an impressive thing to be able to bring that many new renewable projects that are that big online in a single year, that the total amount of new clean generation is on the order of 4,000 megawatts. It wasn't that long ago. That would be a great year for the renewable sector as a whole in the United States. If you go back 10, 12 years. So the idea that one company is now procuring so much renewable power is phenomenally exciting, and we're just so proud of Amazon and it's big progress toward Amazon. So a hundred percent goal, uh, and really, uh, toward the broader effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions rapidly enough to stay within shouting distance of what scientists say we need to do in order to protect our planet's climate. >>Right. Great point. Uh, Colleen, I know you made an interesting point recently, you were talking about the accelerated membership program, which is, uh, an initiative that you've just launched, uh, in terms of trying to create greater diversity and equity and inclusion within the renewable energy, uh, workforce, uh, AWS big sponsor of that, um, founding partner. Uh, if you would tell us a little bit more about that program, uh, and, and what you see is what you hope it's near term or short term impact might be. And then maybe the long tail of that, you know, what kind of impact you can have eventually? >>Yeah, absolutely a core like toward like many in our industry, we've been looking at how we can play a role in creating a more equitable and just future. Um, and we were lucky because we have board members who went during our normal boring board meetings, and we're looking at our membership, asked me, they said, what are you doing to bring more diversity into a core membership? And I had to say, not enough, and that's really the Genesis for the accelerate program. And we were really fortunate to have Shannon and Amazon and our other board members work with us to develop a program that will create opportunities for companies that are owned or led by women or people of color to access a core in all of our benefits for two years and create additional resources for them to really grow their businesses in a way that they may not otherwise be able to. >>Yeah. Shannon did point out that you are board members, Colleen just, just mentioned, um, uh, of a core. What is it about this particular initiative that you think that has peaked the AWS entrust? >>This is Colleen said, uh, we were discussing at the board level, you know, ways that we could, um, do more as a or, uh, in this companies in this sector, promote diversity and inclusion. And we were brainstorming one day and came up with this, uh, with this idea, you know, it's, I'm really excited about it because, um, we're basically going out and offering a core membership and other services, uh, to entrepreneurs and small businesses in the sector led by, uh, minorities and, um, uh, women leaders. And this is just a fantastic opportunity to assist companies and organizations that are just getting started, uh, in an encourages innovation and encourages obviously diversity and inclusion. And so we're super excited about this effort. >>Is this, is this something that you can direct toward a company of any specific size? I mean, Shannon just touched on it, small business, um, but is, is this applicable? The, the, the accelerate program is this geared toward just the small businesses, larger >>Turn in Britain. Uh, we want to bring more diversity in the sector. We want to help. And it's really the smaller companies that need assistance and making those connections and participating, uh, and gaining the access, uh, and maybe mentoring pro bono services. Uh, we want to help those small companies become bigger, grow this sector and, and help enhance the diversity, the leadership in this sector from underrepresented communities. We want, you know, like much of the economy we recognize the renewable energy sector does not yet look like America looks and that's something we're all fighting to achieve. And it's, uh, incredibly helpful to have an Amazon is really the founding supporter of this program. And after Amazon stepped up, uh, seen a number of other companies join in and helping make this a reality. And we've got a lot of momentum now, very excited about the accelerate program. >>Colleen, I like to hear a little bit more from you on the partnership with AWS in general. Um, I know this isn't the first time that you all have partnered together. So if you would maybe fill in some of the blanks about that history that led us to this initiative, and then for them being the one of the founding partners along with the Berkshire Hathaway foundation. >>Sure. I mean, Amazon's been a member of our board for a number of years now, their commitment to the industry is clear and, you know, Shannon and his whole team actively participate across a core providing us with guidance and with insights like these. I think when you look at what we've done with the accelerate program, you know, it's not the first stop for a new small company organization like eight core, but we can have a measurable impact on their go to market strategies and their ability to grow their business. And Shannon and Amazon gave us that insight and they gave us some additional insights about what we could provide through the accelerate program that could really help make a difference for those companies. >>Hmm. You know, Greg, um, if I could just flip the script just a little bit here or, or, uh, get you back on to the discussion about climate change in general. I know that's just obviously, uh, the, the, a key driver to your organization's mission. Just your thoughts about, you know, where we stand, that you talked about trying to be within shouting distance of certain goals. I know there's been discussion about United States for joining the Paris accord, um, and committing to voluntary, uh, uh, emissions controls, just, I mean, where are we in your mind in terms of, of trying to seriously address the problem >>We're behind? I mean, the surprising thing is the renewable sector has been growing at a booming pace. We had over $60 billion in investment last year and wind and solar power, uh, one of the most important economic drivers for the country. Um, we're going to end up despite all of the difficulties presented by 2020 with a pandemic, we're going to have record renewable energy growth in 2020, we're going to bust through the old record, which was about 23,000 megawatts. And we'll be more like 27,000 megawatts. So that's great, but to get our arms around the climate issue, we know we have to grow much more rapidly. We've set a goal at a core of achieving a trillion dollars and investment by 2030, starting when we launched that program back in 2018, uh, and we made a lot of headway, but we're behind. We need to be investing closer to 90, a hundred billion a year in order to see that growth in logging at growth at a much higher rate, we feel really optimistic about getting a tailwind from the new administration, the desire to build back that, or, uh, the clear focus on policies and that value the ability to generate power, to make our economy grow and grow dramatically without greenhouse emissions, without adding to, uh, climate change. >>So, uh, um, I'm optimistic we can get there, but we know we gotta step it up as much as we've been growing as successful as we've been. It's not enough. And we know that >>Colleen, how does your organization in ACOR trumpet that, um, I know you talked about the nexus of finance and policy and technology. Obviously policy is what, uh, is at the center of this particular discussion, but, but how, how can you in the coming year, especially, um, be a, a key driver in that discussion? >>Well, I think, you know, we bring together a really unique stakeholder group from all across the renewable energy industry. And we take those stakeholders and it gives us a magnified voice to share the message of what's needed to really drive more Watts of renewable energy onto the grid. And what are those barriers in policy to making that possible? So, I mean, that's really how we do it is we bring together the most unique group together, >>But we appreciate the work. Uh, no question about that. It is a dire need that needs to be addressed. And we certainly thank you for that. Uh, Shannon, we thank AWS for their support, not only of this initiative, but of all that you're doing around the world. And, uh, we certainly wish you all the best of success with the accelerate membership program and creating these better hiring opportunities within your industry. So thank you all very much for joining us here on the cube.

>>covering the space and cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly. Hold on. Welcome to this special presentation with Cal poly hosting the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 virtual, um, John for your host with the cube and Silicon angle here in our Palo Alto studios with our remote guests, we couldn't be there in person, but we're going to be here remotely. Got a great session and a panel for one hour topic preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow, but a great lineup. Bill Britain, Lieutenant Colonel from the us air force, retired vice president for information technology and CIO and the director of the California cyber security Institute for Cal poly bill. Thanks for joining us, dr. Amy Fisher, who's the Dean of the college of engineering at Cal poly and trunk fam professor and researcher at the U S air force Academy. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >>Our pleasure got a great, great panel. This is one of my favorite topics preparing students for the next generation, the jobs for today and tomorrow. We've got an hour. I'd love you guys to start with an opening statement, to kick things off a bill. We'll start with you. Well, I'm really pleased to be, to start on this. Um, as the director for the cybersecurity Institute and the CIO at Cal poly, it's really a fun, exciting job because as a Polytechnic technology, as such a forefront in what we're doing, and we've had a, a wonderful opportunity being 40 miles from Vandenberg air force base to really look at the nexus of space and cyber security. And if you add into that, uh, both commercial government and civil space and cybersecurity, this is an expanding wide open time for cyber and space. In that role that we have with the cyber security Institute, we partner with elements of the state and the university. >>And we try to really add value above our academic level, which is some of the highest in the nation and to really merge down and go a little lower and start younger. So we actually are running the week prior to this showing a cybersecurity competition for high schools or middle schools in the state of California, that competition this year is based on a scenario around hacking of a commercial satellite and the forensics of the payload that was hacked and the networks associated with it. This is going to be done using products like Wireshark autopsy and other tools that will give those high school students. What we hope is a huge desire to follow up and go into cyber and cyber space and space and follow that career path. And either come to Cal poly or some other institution that's going to let them really expand their horizons in cybersecurity and space for the future >>Of our nation. >>Bill, thanks for that intro, by the way, it's gonna give you props for an amazing team and job you guys are doing at Cal poly, that Dex hub and the efforts you guys are having with your challenge. Congratulations on that great work. Thank you >>Star team. It's absolutely amazing. You find that much talent in one location. And I think Amy is going to tell you she's got the same amount of talent in her staff. So it's, it's a great place to be. >>Amy flasher. You guys have a great organization down there, amazing curriculum, grazing people, great community, your opening statement. >>Hello everybody. It's really great to be a part of this panel on behalf of the Cal poly college of engineering here at Cal poly, we really take preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow completely seriously. And we claim that our students really graduate. So they're ready day one for their first real job, but that means that in getting them to that point, we have to help them get valuable and meaningful job experience before they graduate, but through our curriculum and through multiple internship or summer research opportunities. So we focus our curriculum on what we call a learn by doing philosophy. And this means that we have a combination of practical experience and learn by doing both in and out of the classroom. And we find that to be really critical for preparing students for the workforce here at Cal poly, we have more than 6,000 engineering students. >>We're one of the largest undergraduate engineering schools in the country. Um, and us news ranks us the eighth best undergraduate engineering program in the, in the country and the top ranked state school. We're really, really proud that we offer this impactful hands on engineering education that really exceeds that of virtually all private universities while reaching a wider audience of students. We offer 14 degree programs and really we're talking today about cyber and space. And I think most of those degree programs can really make an impact in the space and cybersecurity economy. And this includes not only things like Aero and cyber directly, but also electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, materials, engineering, even manufacturing, civil and biomedical engineering. As there's a lot of infrastructure needs that go into supporting launch capabilities. Our aerospace program graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers, and most of them are working right here in California. >>I'm with many of our corporate partners, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon space, X, Virgin, galactic JPL, and so many other places where we have Cal poly engineer's impacting the space economy. Our cybersecurity focus is found mainly in our computer science and software engineering programs. And it's really a rapidly growing interest among our students. Computer science is our most popular major and industry interest and partnerships are integrated into our curriculum. And we do that oftentimes through support from industry. So we have partnerships with Northrop Grumman for professorship and a cyber lab and from PG and E for critical infrastructure, cybersecurity lab, and professorship. And we think that industry partnerships like these are really critical to preparing students for the future as the field's evolving so quickly and making sure we adapt our facilities and our curriculum to stay in line with what we're seeing in industry is incredibly important. >>In our aerospace program, we have an educational partnership with the air force research labs. That's allowing us to install new high performance computing capabilities and a space environments lab. That's going to enhance our satellite design capabilities. And if we talk about satellite design, Cal poly is the founding home of the cube sat program, which pioneered small satellite capabilities. And we remain the worldwide leader in maintaining the cube set standard. And our student program has launched more cube sets than any other program. So here again, we have this learn by doing experience every year for dozens of aerospace, electrical, computer science, mechanical engineering students, and other student activities that we think are just as important include ethical hacking through our white hat club, Cal poly space systems, which does really, really big rocket launches and our support program for women in both of these fields like wish, which is women in software and hardware. >>Now, you know, really trying to bring in a wide variety of people into these fields is incredibly important and outreach and support to those demographics. Traditionally underrepresented in these fields is going to be really critical to future success. So by drawing on the lived experiences by people with different types of backgrounds, while we develop the type of culture and environment where all of us can get to the best solution. So in terms of bringing people into the field, we see that research shows, we need to reach kids when they're in late elementary and middle schools to really overcome that cultural bias that works against diversity in our fields. And you heard bill talking about the cyber cybersec, the California cybersecurity institutes a year late cyber challenge. There's a lot of other people who are working to bring in a wider variety of, uh, of people into the field, like girl Scouts, which has introduced dozens of new badges over the past few years, including a whole cybersecurity series of badges and a concert with Palo Alto networks. So we have our work cut out for us, but we know what we need to do. And if we're really committed to prep properly preparing the workforce for today and tomorrow, I think our future is going to be bright. I'm looking forward to our discussion today. >>Yeah, you got a flashy for great, great comment, opening statement and congratulations. You got the right formula down there, the right mindset, and you got a lot of talent and community as well. Thank thank you for that opening statement. Next step from Colorado Springs, trunk fam, who's a professor and researcher. The us air force Academy is doing a lot of research around the areas that are most important for the intersection of space and technology trunk. >>Good afternoon, first electric and Cal poli for the opportunity. And today I want to go briefly about cyber security in S application. Whenever we talk about cyber security, the impression is got yes, a new phew that is really highly complex involving a lot of technical area. But in reality, in my personal opinion, it is in be complex because involve many disciplines. The first thing we think about is computer engineering and computer networking, but it's also involving communication sociology, law practice. And this practice of cyber security goes in on the info computer expert, but it's also info everybody else who has a computing device that is connected to the internet. And this participation is obviously every body in today's environment. When we think about the internet, we know that is a good source of information, but come with the convenience of information that we can access. >>We are constantly faced in being from the internet. Some of them, we might be aware of some of them we might not be aware of. For example, when we search on the internet, a lot of time, our browser will be saved and gotten this site is not trusted. So we will be more careful. What about the sites that we trusted? We know getting those salad chicken sites, but they're not a hundred percent good at proof. What happened? It was all side, uh, attack by hacker. And then they will be a silent source that we might not be aware of. So in the reality, we need to be more practicing the, um, cyber security from our SIBO point of view and not from a technical point of view. When we talk about space application, we should know that all the hardware, a computer based tool by computer system and therefore the hardware and the software must go through some certification process so that they can be record that air with the flight. >>What the, when we know that in the certification process is focusing on the functionality of the hardware and software, but one aspect that is explicitly and implicitly required is the security of those components. And we know that those components have to be connected with the ground control station and be communication is through the air, through the layby or signal. So anybody who has access to those communication regular signal will be able to control the space system that we put up there. And we certainly do not want our system to be hijacked by a third party. >>I'm not going to aspect of cybersecurity is we try to design the space system in a very strong manner. So it's almost impossible to hack in, but what about some August week system that might be connected to so strong system? For example, the spare system will be connected to the ground control station and on the ground control station, we have the human controller in those people have cell phone. They are allowed to use cell phones for communication, but at the same time, they are connected to the internet, to the cell phone and their cell phone might be connected to the computer that control the flight software and hardware. So what I want to say is that we try to build strong system and we protected them, but there will be some weaker system that we could not intended, but exists to be connected to our strong system. And those are the points that hacker will be trying to attack. If we know how to control the access to those points, we will be having a much better system for the space system. And when we see the cybersecurity that is requiring the participation everywhere, it's important to Merck that there is a source of opportunity for students to engage the workforce. To concede the obviously student in engineering can focus their knowledge and expertise to provide technological solution, to protect the system that we view. But we also >>Have students in business who can focus to write a business plan to reach the market. We also have student in law who can focus policy governing the cyber security. And we also have student in education who can focus the expert. She should be saying how to teach cyber security practice and students can focus the effort to implement security measures and it implies job opportunity. >>Thank you trunk for those great comments, great technology opportunities, but interesting as well as the theme that we're seeing across the entire symposium and in the virtual hallways that we're hearing conversations and you pointed out some of them, dr. Fleischer did as well. And bill, you mentioned it. It's not one thing. It's not just technology, it's different skills. And, um, Amy, you mentioned that computer science is the hottest degree, but you have the hottest aerospace program in the world. I mean, so all of this is kind of balancing it's interdisciplinary. It's a structural change before we get into some of the, um, how they prepare the students. Can you guys talk about some of the structural changes that are modern now in preparing, um, in these opportunities because societal impact is a law potentially impact it's, it's how we educate there's no cross-discipline skillsets. It's not just get the degree, see out in the field bill, you want to start. >>Well, what's really fun about this job is, is that in the air force, uh, I worked in the space and missile business and what we saw was a heavy reliance on checklist format, security procedures, analog systems, and what we're seeing now in our world, both in the government and the commercial side, uh, is a move to a digital environment. And the digital environment is a very quick and adaptive environment. And it's going to require a digital understanding. Matter of fact, um, the, uh, under secretary of the air force for acquisition, uh, rev recently referenced the need to understand the digital environment and how that's affecting acquisition. So as, as both Amy, um, and trunk said, even business students are now in the >>Cybersecurity business. And, and so, again, what we're seeing is, is the change. Now, another phenomenon that we're seeing in the space world is there's just so much data. Uh, one of the ways that we addressed that in the past was to look at high performance computing. It was a lot stricter control over how that worked, but now what we're seeing these adaptation of cloud cloud technologies in space support, space, data, command, and control. Uh, and so what we see is a modern space engineer who asked to understand digital, has to understand cloud and has to understand the context of all those with a cyber environment. That's really changing the forefront of what is a space engineer, what is a digital engineer and what does a future engineer, both commercial or government? So I think the opportunity for all of these things is really good, particularly for a Polytechnic air force Academy and others that are focusing on a more, uh, widened experiential level of cloud and engineering and other capabilities. >>And I'll tell you the part that as the CIO, I have to remind everybody, all this stuff works for the it stuff. So you've got to understand how your it infrastructures are tied and working together. Um, as we noted earlier, one of the things is, is that these are all relays from point the point, and that architecture is part of your cybersecurity architecture. So again, every component has now become a cyber aware cyber knowledgeable, and in what we'd like to call as a cyber cognizant citizen, where they have to understand the context, patients chip software, that the Fleischer talk about your perspective, because you mentioned some of the things that computer science. Remember when I'm in the eighties, when I got my computer science degree, they call the software engineers, and then you became software developers. And then, so again, engineering is the theme. If you're engineering a system, there's now software involved, um, and there's also business engineering business models. So talk about some of your comments was, you mentioned, computer science is hot. You got the aerospace, you've got these multidisciplines you got definitely diversity as well. It brings more perspectives in as well. Your thoughts on these structural interdisciplinary things. >>I think this is, this is really key to making sure that students are prepared to work in the workforce is looking at the, the blurring between fields no longer are you just a computer scientist, no longer are you just an aerospace engineer? You really have to have an expertise where you can work with people across disciplines. All of these, all of these fields are just working with each other in ways we haven't seen before. And bill brought up data, you know, data science is something that's cross cutting across all of our fields. So we want engineers that have the disciplinary expertise so that they can go deep into these fields, but we want them to be able to communicate with each and to be able to communicate across disciplines and to be able to work in teams that are across disciplines. You can no longer just work with other computer scientists or just work with other aerospace engineers. >>There's no part of engineering that is siloed anymore. So that's how we're changing. You have to be able to work across those, those disciplines. And as you, as Tron pointed out, you know, ethics has to come into this. So you can no longer try to fully separate what we would traditionally have called the, the liberal arts and say, well, that's over there in general education. No ethics is an important part of what we're doing and how we integrate that into our curriculum. So it was communication. So is working on public policy and seeing where all of these different aspects tied together to make the impact that we want to have in the world. So it, you no longer can work solo in these fields. >>Great point. And bill also mentioned the cloud. One thing about the cloud that showed us as horizontal scalability has created a lot of value and certainly data is now horizontal Trung. You mentioned some of the things about cryptography for the kids out there. I mean, you can look at the pathway for career. You can do a lot of tech and, but you don't have to go deep. Sometimes you can go, you can go as deep as you want, but there's so much more there. Um, what technology do you see, how it's going to help students in your opinion? >>Well, I'm a professor in computer science, so I'd like to talk out a little bit about computer programming. Now we, uh, working in complex project. So most of the time we design a system from scratch. We view it from different components and the components that we have either we get it from or some time we get it from the internet in the open source environment, it's fun to get the source code and then work to our own application. So now when we are looking at a Logie, when we talk about encryption, for example, we can easily get the source code from the internet. And the question is, is safe to use those source code. And my, my, my question is maybe not. So I always encourage my students to learn how to write source score distribution, where that I learned a long time ago before I allow them to use the open source environment. And one of the things that they have to be careful, especially with encryption is be quote that might be hidden in the, in the source, get the download here, some of the source. >>So open source, it's a wonderful place to be, but it's also that we have to be aware of >>Great point before we get into some of the common one quick thing for each of you like to get your comments on, you know, the there's been a big movement on growth mindset, which has been a great, I'm a big believer in having a growth mindset and learning and all that good stuff. But now that when you talk about some of these things that we're mentioning about systems, there's, there's an, there's a new trend around a systems mindset, because if everything's now a system distributed systems, now you have space in cyber security, you have to understand the consequences of changes. And you mentioned some of that Trung in changes in the source code. Could you guys share your quick opinions on the, the idea of systems thinking, is that a mindset that people should be looking at? Because it used to be just one thing, Oh, you're a systems guy or galley. There you go. You're done. Now. It seems to be in social media and data. Everything seems to be systems. What's your take dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you. >>Uh, I'd say it's a, it's another way of looking at, um, not being just so deep in your discipline. You have to understand what the impact of the decisions that you're making have on a much broader, uh, system. And so I think it's important for all of our students to get some exposure to that systems level thinking and looking at the greater impact of the decision that they're making. Now, the issue is where do you set the systems boundary, right? And you can set the systems boundary very close in and concentrate on an aspect of a design, or you can continually move that system boundary out and see, where do you hit the intersections of engineering and science along with ethics and public policy and the greater society. And I think that's where some of the interesting work is going to be. And I think at least exposing students and letting them know that they're going to have to make some of these considerations as they move throughout their career is going to be vital as we move into the future. Bill. What's your thoughts? >>Um, I absolutely agree with Amy and I think there's a context here that reverse engineering, um, and forensics analysis and forensics engineering are becoming more critical than ever, uh, the ability to look at what you have designed in a system and then tear it apart and look at it for gaps and holes and problem sets, or when you're given some software that's already been pre developed, checking it to make sure it is, is really going to do what it says it's going to do. That forensics ability becomes more and more a skillset that also you need the verbal skills to explain what it is you're doing and what you found. So the communication side, the systems analysis, >>The forensics analysis side, >>These are all things that are part of that system >>Approach that I think you could spend hours on. And we still haven't really done great job on it. So it's a, it's. One of my fortes is the really the whole analysis side of forensics and it reverse engineering >>Try and real quick systems thinking. >>Well, I'd like to share with you my experience. When I worked in the space patient program at NASA, we had two different approaches. One is a down approach where we design it from the system general point of view, where we put components to complex system. But at the same time, we have the bottom up approach where we have Ken Chile who spent time and effort the individual component. And they have to be expert in those Chinese component. That might be general component the gallery. And in the space station program, we bring together the welcome up engineer, who designed everything in detail in the system manager who manage the system design from the top down. And we meet in the middle and took the idea with compromise a lot of differences. Then we can leave a display station that we are operating to be okay, >>Great insight. And that's the whole teamwork collaboration that, that was mentioning. Thanks so much for that insight. I wanted to get that out there because I know myself as a, as a parent, I'm always trying to think about what's best for my kids in their friends, as they grow up into the workforce. I know educators and leaders in industry would love to know some of the best practices around some of the structural changes. So thanks for that insight, but this topics about students and helping them prepare. Uh, so we heard, you know, be, be multiple discipline, broaden your horizons, think like systems top down, bottom up, work together as a team and follow the data. So I got to ask you guys, there's a huge amount of job openings in cybersecurity. It's well documented and certainly at the intersection of space and cyber, it's only gonna get bigger, right? You're going to see more and more demand for new types of jobs. How do we get high school and college students interested in security as a career at the flagship? We'll start with you in this one. >>I would say really one of the best ways to get students interested in the career is to show them the impact that it's going to have. There's definitely always going to be students who are going to want to do the technology for the technology sake, but that will limit you to a narrow set of students. And by showing that the greater impact that these types of careers are going to have on the types of problems that you're going to be able to solve and the impact you're going to be able to have on the world, around you, that's the word that we really need to get out. And a wide variety of students really respond to these messages. So I think it's really kind of reaching out at the, uh, the elementary, the middle school level, and really kind of getting this idea that you can make a big difference, a big positive difference in the field with some of these careers is going to be really critical. >>Real question, follow up. What do you think is the best entry point? You mentioned middle squad in here, elementary school. This comes, there's a lot of discussions around pipelining and we're going to get into women in tech and under-represented matters later, but you know, is it too early or what's the, what's your feeling on this? >>My feeling is the earlier we can normalize it the better the, uh, if you can normalize an interest in, in computers and technology and building an elementary school, that's absolutely critical. But the dropoff point that we're seeing is between what I would call like late elementary and early middle school. Um, and just kind of as an anecdote, I, for years ran an outreach program for girl Scouts in grades four and five and grade six, seven, and eight. And we had a hundred slots in each program. And every year the program would sell out for girls in grades four and five, and every year we'd have spots remaining in grades six, seven, and eight. And that's literally where the drop-off is occurring between that late elementary and that middle school range. So that's the area that we need to target to make sure we keep those young women involved and interested as we move forward. >>Bill, how are we going to get these kids interested in security? You mentioned a few programs you got. Yeah. I mean, who wants to, who wouldn't want to be a white hat hacker? I mean, yeah, that sounds exciting. Yeah. Great questions. Let's start with some basic principles though. Is let me ask you a question, John, a name for me, one white hat, good person hacker. The name who works in the space industry and is an exemplar for students to look up to, um, you, um, Oh man. I'm hearing really. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine because the answer we normally get is the cricket sound. So we don't have individuals we've identified in those areas for them to look up to. I was going to be snarky and say, most white hackers won't even use their real name, but, um, there's a, there's an aura around their anonymity here. >>So, so again, the real question is, is how do we get them engaged and keep them engaged? And that's what Amy was pointing out too. Exactly the engagement and sticking with it. So one of the things that we're trying to do through our competition on the state level and other elements is providing connections. We call them ambassadors. These are people in the business who can contact the students that are in the game or in that, uh, challenge environment and let them interact and let them talk about what they do and what they're doing in life would give them a challenging game format. Um, a lot of computer based training, um, capture the flag stuff is great, but if you can make it hands on, if you can make it a learn by doing experiment, if you can make it am personally involved and see the benefit as a result of doing that challenge and then talk to the people who do that on a daily basis, that's how you get them involved. >>The second part is as part of what we're doing is, is we're involving partnership companies in the development of the teams. So this year's competition that we're running has 82 teams from across the state of California, uh, of those 82 teams at six students team, middle school, high school, and many of those have company partners. And these are practitioners in cybersecurity who are working with those students to participate. It's it's that adult connectivity, it's that visualization. Um, so at the competition this year, um, we have the founder of Def con red flag is a participant to talk to the students. We have Vince surf as who is of course, very well known for something called the internet to participate. It's really getting the students to understand who's in this. Who can I look up to and how do I stay engaged with them? >>There's definitely a celebrity aspect of it. I will agree. I mean, the influencer aspect here with knowledge is key. Can you talk about, um, these ambassadors and, and, and how far along are you on that program? First of all, the challenge stuff is anything gamification wise. We've seen that with hackathons is just really works well. Grades, bonding, people who create together kinda get sticky and get very high community aspect to it. Talking about this ambassador thing. What does that industry is that academic >>Absolutely partners that we've identified? Um, some of which, and I won't hit all of them. So I'm sure I'll short changes, but, uh, Palo Alto, Cisco, um, Splunk, um, many of the companies in California and what we've done is identified, uh, schools, uh, to participate in the challenge that may not have a strong STEM program or have any cyber program. And the idea of the company is they look for their employees who are in those school districts to partner with the schools to help provide outreach. It could be as simple as a couple hours a week, or it's a team support captain or it's providing computers and other devices to use. Uh, and so again, it's really about a constant connectivity and, uh, trying to help where some schools may not have the staff or support units in an area to really provide them what they need for connectivity. What that does gives us an opportunity to not just focus on it once a year, but throughout the year. So for the competition, all the teams that are participating have been receiving, um, training and educational opportunities in the game of education side, since they signed up to participate. So there's a website, there's learning materials, there's materials provided by certain vendor companies like Wireshark and others. So it's a continuum of opportunity for the, >>You know, I've seen just the re randomly, just going to random thought, you know, robotics clubs are moving den closer into that middle school area, in fact Fleischer. And certainly in high schools, it's almost like a varsity sport. E-sports is another one. My son just combined made the JV at the college Dean, you know, it's big and it's up and serious. Right. And, um, it's fun. This is the aspect of fun. It's hands on. This is part of the culture down there you learn by doing, is there like a group? Is it like, um, is it like a club? I mean, how do you guys organize these bottoms up organically interest topics? >>So, so here in the college of engineering, uh, when we talk about learning by doing, we have learned by doing both in the classroom and out of the classroom. And if we look at the, these types of, out of the classroom activities, we have over 80 clubs working on all different aspects of many of these are bottom up. The students have decided what they want to work on and have organized themselves around that. And then they get the leadership opportunities. The more experienced students train in the less experienced students. And it continues to build from year after year after year with them even doing aspects of strategic planning from year to year for some of these competitions. So, yeah, it's an absolutely great experience. And we don't define for them how their learned by doing experiences should be, we want them to define it. And I think the really cool thing about that is they have the ownership and they have the interest and they can come up with new clubs year after year to see which direction they want to take it. And, you know, we will help support those clubs as old clubs fade out and new clubs come in >>Trunk real quick. Before we go on the next, uh, talk track, what, what do you recommend for, um, middle school, high school or even elementary? Um, a little bit of coding Minecraft. I mean, what, how do you get them hooked on the fun and the dopamine of, uh, technology and cybersecurity? What's your, what's your take on that? >>On, on this aspect, I like to share with you my experience as a junior high and high school student in Texas, the university of Texas in Austin organized a competition for every high school in Texas. If we phew from poetry to mathematics, to science, computer engineering, but it's not about with university of Texas. The university of Texas is on the serving SSN for the final competition that we divide the competition to be strict and then regional, and then spit at each level, we have local university and colleges volunteering to host it competition and make it fun. >>Also students with private enterprises to raise funding for scholarship. So students who see the competition they get exposed to so they can see different option. They also get a scholarship when they attend university in college. So I've seen the combination in competition aspect would be a good thing to be >>Got the engagement, the aspiration scholarship, you know, and you mentioned a volunteer. I think one of the things I'll observe is you guys are kind of hitting this as community. I mean, the story of Steve jobs and was, was building the Mac, they call it bill Hewlett up in Palo Alto. It was in the phone book and they scoured some parts from them. That's community. This is kind of what you're getting at. So this is kind of the formula we're seeing. So the next question I really want to get into is the women in technology, STEM, underrepresented minorities, how do we get them on cybersecurity career path? Is there a best practices there, bill, we'll start with you? >>Well, I think it's really interesting. First thing I want to add is if I could have just a clarification, what's really cool that the competition that we have and we're running, it's run by student from Cal poly. Uh, so, you know, Amy referenced the clubs and other activities. So many of the, uh, organizers and developers of the competition that we're running are the students, but not just from engineering. So we actually have theater and liberal arts majors and technology for liberal arts majors who are part of the competition. And we use their areas of expertise, set design, and other things, uh, visualization of virtualization. Those are all part of how we then teach and educate cyber in our game effication and other areas. So they're all involved in their learning as well. So we have our students teaching other students. So we're really excited about that. And I think that's part of what leads to a mentoring aspect of what we're providing, where our students are mentoring the other students. And I think it's also something that's really important in the game. Um, the first year we held the game, we had several all girl teams and it was really interesting because a, they, they didn't really know if they could compete. I mean, this is their, their reference point. We don't know if they did better than anybody. I mean, they, they knocked the ball out >>Of the park. The second part then is building that confidence level that they can going back and telling their cohorts that, Hey, it's not this thing you can't do. It's something real that you can compete and win. And so again, it's building that comradery, that spirit, that knowledge that they can succeed. And I think that goes a long way and an Amy's programs and the reach out and the reach out that Cal poly does to schools to develop. Uh, I think that's what it really is going to take. It. It is going to take that village approach to really increase diversity and inclusivity for the community. >>That's the flusher. I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned, um, your, your outreach program and the dropoff, some of those data, uh, you're deeply involved in this. You're passionate about it. What's your thoughts on this career path opportunity for STEM? >>Yeah, I think STEM is an incredible career path opportunity for so many people. There's so many interesting problems that we can solve, particularly in cyber and in space systems. And I think we have to meet the kids where they are and kind of show them, you know, what the exciting part is about it, right. But, you know, bill was, was alluding to this. And when he was talking about, you know, trying to name somebody that you can can point to. And I think having those visible people where you can see yourself in that is, is absolutely critical and those mentors and that mentorship program. So we use a lot of our students going out into California, middle schools and elementary schools. And you want to see somebody that's like you, somebody that came from your background and was able to do this. So a lot of times we have students from our national society of black engineers or a society of Hispanic professional engineers or our society of women engineers. >>We have over a thousand members, a thousand student members in our society of women engineers who were doing these outreach programs. But like I also said, it's hitting them at the lower levels too. And girl Scouts is actually distinguishing themselves as one of the leading STEM advocates in the country. And like I said, they developed all these cybersecurity badges, starting in kindergarten. There's a cybersecurity badge for kindergarten and first graders. And it goes all the way up through late high school, the same thing with space systems. And they did the space systems in partnership with NASA. They did the cybersecurity and partnership with Palo Alto networks. And what you do is you want to build these, these skills that the girls are developing. And like bill said, work in and girl led teams where they can do it. And if they're doing it from kindergarten on, it just becomes normal. And they never think, well, this is not for me. And they see the older girls who are doing it and they see a very clear path leading them into these careers. >>Yeah. It's interesting. You used the word normalization earlier. That's exactly what it is. It's life, you get life skills and a new kind of badge. Why wouldn't learn how to be a white, white hat hacker, or have fun or learn new skills just in, in the, in the grind of your fun day. Super exciting. Okay. Trung your thoughts on this. I mean, you have a diverse diversity. It brings perspective to the table in cybersecurity because you have to think like the other, the adversary, you got to be the white headed hippie, a white hat, unless you know how black hat thinks. So there's a lot of needs here for more, more, more points of view. How are we going to get people trained on this from under represented minorities and women? What's your thoughts? >>Well, as a member of, I took a professional society of directed pool in the electronic engineer. You have the, uh, we participate in the engineering week. We'll be ploy our members to local junior high school and high school to talk about our project, to promote the discovery of engineering. But at the same time, we also participate in the science fair that we scaled up flex. As the squad organizing our engineer will be mentoring students, number one, to help them with the part check, but number two, to help us identify talents so that we can recruit them further into the field of STEM. One of the participation that week was the competition of the, what they call future CV. We're still going, we'll be doing a CT on a computer simulation. And in recent year we promote ops smart CV where CT will be connected the individual houses to be added in through the internet. >>And we want to bring awareness of cybersecurity into competition. So we deploy engineer to supervise the people, the students who participate in the competition, we bring awareness, not in the technical be challenged level, but in what we've called the compound level. So speargun will be able to know what is, why to provide cyber security for the smart city that they are building. And at the same time, we were able to identify talent, especially talent in the minority and in the room. And so that we can recruit them more actively. And we also raise money for scholarship. We believe that scholarship is the best way to get students to continue education in Epic college level. So with scholarship, it's very easy to recruit them, to give you and then push them to go further into the cyber security Eylea. >>Yeah. I mean, you know, I see a lot of the parents like, Oh, my kid's going to go join the soccer team, >>Private lessons, and maybe look at a scholarship >>Someday. Well, they only do have scholarships anyway. I mean, this is if they spent that time doing other things, it's just, again, this is a new lifestyle, like the girl Scouts. And this is where I want to get into this whole silo breaking down because Amy, you brought this up and bill, you were talking about as well, you've got multiple stakeholders here with this event. You got, you know, public, you got private and you've got educators. It's the intersection of all of them. It's again, that those, if those silos break down the confluence of those three stakeholders have to work together. So let's, let's talk about that. Educators. You guys are educating young minds, you're interfacing with private institutions and now the public. What about educators? What can they do to make cyber better? Cause there's no real manual. I mean, it's not like this court is a body of work of how to educate cybersecurity is maybe it's more recent, it's cutting edge, best practices, but still it's an, it's an evolving playbook. What's your thoughts for educators, bill? We'll start with you. >>Well, I don't really, I'm going to turn it off. >>I would say, I would say as, as educators, it's really important for us to stay on top of how the field is evolving, right? So what we want to do is we want to promote these tight connections between educators and our faculty and, um, applied research in industry and with industry partnerships. And I think that's how we're going to make sure that we're educating students in the best way. And you're talking about that inner, that confluence of the three different areas. And I think you have to keep those communication lines open to make sure that the information on where the field is going and what we need to concentrate on is flowing down into our educational process. And that, that works in both ways that, you know, we can talk as educators and we can be telling industry what we're working on and what are types of skills our students have and working with them to get the opportunities for our students to work in industry and develop those skills along the way as well. >>And I think it's just all part of this is really looking at, at what's going to be happening and how do we get people talking to each other and the same thing with looking at public policy and bringing that into our education and into these real hands on experiences. And that's how you really cement this type of knowledge with students, not by not by talking to them and not by showing them, but letting them do it. It's this learn by doing and building the resiliency that it takes when you learn by doing. And sometimes you learn by failing, but you just up and you keep going. >>And these are important skills that you develop along the way >>You mentioned, um, um, sharing too. That's the key collaborating and sharing knowledge. It's an open, open world and everyone's collaborating feel private public partnerships. I mean, there's a real private companies. You mentioned Palo Alto networks and others. There's a real intersection there there's, they're motivated. They could, the scholarship opportunities, trunk points to that. What is the public private educator view there? How do companies get involved? What's the benefit for them? >>Well, that's what a lot of the universities are doing is to bring in as part of either their cyber centers or institutes, people who are really focused on developing and furthering those public private partnerships. That's really what my role is in all these things is to take us to a different level in those areas, uh, not to take away from the academic side, but to add additional opportunities for both sides. Remember in a public private partnership, all entities have to have some gain in the process. Now, what I think is really interesting is the timing on particularly this subject space and cyber security. This has been an absolute banner year for space. The Stanhope of space force, the launch of commercial partnership, leaving commercial platforms, delivering astronauts to the space station, recovering them and bringing back the ability of a commercial satellite platform to be launched a commercial platforms that not only launch, but return back to where they're launched from. >>These are things that are stirring the hearts of the American citizens, the kids, again, they're getting interested, they're seeing this and getting enthused. So we have to seize upon that and we have to find a way to connect that public private partnerships is the answer for that. It's not one segment that can handle it all. It's all of them combined together. If you look at space, space is going to be about commercial. It's going to be about civil moving from one side of the earth, to the other via space. And it's about government. And what's really cool for us. All those things are in our backyard. Yeah. That's where that public private comes together. The government's involved, the private sector is involved. The educators are involved and we're all looking at the same things and trying to figure out like this forum, what works best to go to the future. >>You know, if people are bored and they want to look for an exciting challenge, he couldn't have laid it out any clearer. It's the most exciting discipline. It hits everything. I mean, we just talk about space. GPS is everything we do is well tested. Do with satellites. >>I have to tell you a story on that, right? We have a very unique GPS story right in our backyard. So our sheriff is the son of the father of GPS for the air force. So you can't get better than that when it comes to being connected to all those platforms. So we, we really want to say, you know, this is so exciting for all of us because >>It gives everybody a job for a long time. >>You know, the kids that don't think tick toxic, exciting, wait til they see what's going on here with you guys, this program, trunk final word on this from the public side, you're at the air force. You're doing research. Are you guys opening it up? Are you integrating into the private and educational sectors? How do you see that formula playing out? And what's the best practice for students and preparing them? >>I think it's the same in athlete university CP in the engineering program will require our students to be final project before graduation. And in this kind of project, we send them out to work in the private industry. The private company got sponsor. Then they get the benefit of having an intern working for them and they get the benefit of reviewing the students as the prospective employee in the future. So it's good for the student to gain practical experience working in this program. Some, some kind of, we call that a core program, some kind, we call that a capstone program and the company will accept the students on a trial PRCS, giving them some assignment and then pay them a little bit of money. So it's good for the student to earn some extra money, to have some experience that they can put on their resume when they apply for the final of the job. >>So the collaboration between university and private sector is really important. We, when I joined a faculty, normally they already exist that connection. It came from. Normally it came from the Dean of engineering who would whine and dine with companies. We work relationship and sign up women, but it's approach to do a good performance so that we can be credibility to continue the relationship with those company and the students that we selected to send to those company. We have to make sure that they will represent the university. Well, they will go a good job and they will make a good impression. >>Thank you very much for great insight, trunk, bill, Amy, amazing topic. I'd like to end this session with each of you to make a statement on the importance of cybersecurity to space. We'll go Trung bill and Amy Truong, the importance of cybersecurity space statement. >>We know that it's affecting components that we are using and we are connecting to. And normally we use them for personal purpose. But when we connect to the important system that the government public company put into space, so it's really important to practice cyber security and a lot of time, it's very easy to know concept. We have to be careful, but in reality, we tend to forget to partnership the way we forget how to ride safely. And with driving a car, we have a program called defensive driving that requires every two or three years to get. We can get discount. >>We are providing the cyber security practice, not to tell people about the technology, but to remind them not practicing cybersecurity. And it's a requirement for every one of us, bill, the importance of cyber security to space. It's not just about young people. It's about all of us as we grow and we change as I referenced it, you know, we're changing from an analog world to a digital world. Those of us who have been in the business and have hair that looks like mine. We need to be just as cognizant about cybersecurity practice as the young people, we need to understand how it affects our lives and particularly in space, because we're going to be talking about people, moving people to space, moving payloads, data, transfer all of those things. And so there's a whole workforce that needs to be retrained or upskilled in cyber that's out there. So the opportunity is ever expensive for all of us, Amy, the importance of cybersecurity space, >>Uh, and the, the emphasis of cybersecurity is space. Just simply, can't be over emphasized. There are so many aspects that are going to have to be considered as systems get ever more complex. And as we pointed out, we're putting people's lives at stake here. This is incredibly, incredibly complicated and incredibly impactful, and actually really exciting the opportunities that are here for students and the workforce of the future to really make an enormous impact on the world around us. And I hope we're able to get that message out to students, to children >>Today. But these are my really interesting fields that you need to consider. >>Thank you very much. I'm John foray with the cube and the importance of cybersecurity and space is the future of the world's all going to happen in and around space with technology, people and society. Thank you to Cal poly. And thank you for watching the Cypress of computer security and space symposium 2020.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering >>space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Over On Welcome to this Special virtual conference. The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from the Cube. I'm John for your host and master of ceremonies. Got a great topic today in this session. Really? The intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic and this conversation is the cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup. We have Jeff Armstrong's the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly Jeffrey. Thanks for jumping on and Bang. Go ahead. The second director of C four s R Division. And he's joining us from the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition Sustainment Department of Defense, D O D. And, of course, Steve Jake's executive director, founder, National Security Space Association and managing partner at Bello's. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session. We got an hour conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>So we got a virtual event here. We've got an hour, have a great conversation and love for you guys do? In opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity in space, Jeff will start with you. >>Well, thanks very much, John. It's great to be on with all of you. Uh, on behalf Cal Poly Welcome, everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission to Cal Poly. Whether that means traditional undergraduates, master students are increasingly mid career professionals looking toe up, skill or re skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers ready Day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves is lucky to be on California's beautiful central Coast. But in recent years, as we have developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, we have discovered that our location is even more advantages than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than u C. Santa Barbara, and the base represents the southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air force base have partner to support regional economic development to encourage the development of a commercial spaceport toe advocate for the space Command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because because both parties stand to benefit Vandenberg by securing new streams of revenue, workforce and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students, and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the Central Coast and the US, creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called Reach, which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to camp to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that is facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has has long been an important defense contractor, an important partner to Cal poly funding scholarships and facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years north of grimness funded scholarships for Cal Poly students this year, their funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars program, Cal Poly Scholars, a support both incoming freshman is transfer students. These air especially important because it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal, and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernized the U. S. I. C B M Armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. How Polly is partnered with many private companies, such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cybersecurity Institute, College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber ready workforce by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment, side by side with military, law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG and E, most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry as a rough approximation. More than 4500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace and defense as their employment sector on linked in, and it's not just our engineers and computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow Panelists not too long ago, >>are >>speaking to bang, we learned that Rachel sins, one of our liberal arts arts majors, is working in his office. So shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates sword extraordinary heights such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International space station later this year as I close. All of which is to say that we're deeply committed the workforce, development and redevelopment that we understand the value of public private partnerships and that were eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state in the nation and our past efforts in space, cybersecurity and links to our partners at as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cybersecurity. Thank you so much, John. >>President, I'm sure thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique progressive. You and wanna tip your hat to you guys over there. Thank you very much for those comments. Appreciate it. Bahng. Department of Defense. Exciting you gotta defend the nation spaces Global. Your opening statement. >>Yes, sir. Thanks, John. Appreciate that day. Thank you, everybody. I'm honored to be this panel along with President Armstrong, Cal Poly in my long longtime friend and colleague Steve Jakes of the National Security Space Association, to discuss a very important topic of cybersecurity workforce development, as President Armstrong alluded to, I'll tell you both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the N S. A have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them in training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs. A swell Asare collective National security Earlier today, during Session three high, along with my colleague Chris Hansen discussed space, cyber Security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferations of hundreds, if not thousands, of satellites providing a variety of services, including communications allowing for global Internet connectivity. S one example within the O. D. We continue to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you one of the enabling technologies eyes the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used unemployed for the U. D. Certainly not lost on Me is the fact that Cal Poly Pioneer Cube SATs 2020 some years ago, and they set the standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the valiant benefit gained way ahead of everybody else, it seems, and Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steve's I colleague, current CEO Mr Bill Britain, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Uh, earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's Cyber Innovation Challenge. In June works Cal Poly host California Mill and high school students and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the pandemic change the plan. Why I truly look forward. Thio feature events such as these Thio participating. Now I want to recognize my good friend Steve Jakes, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here over two decades or so, who was in acknowledge space expert and personally, I truly applaud him for having the foresight of years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology but Polly policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operational izing space. Space is our newest horrifying domain. That's not a secret anymore. Uh, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains such as land, air and sea, obviously all of strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict they will need to be. They will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts in a joint operation. We must succeed. All to defending space is critical as critical is defending our other operational domains. Funny space is no longer the sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly, as I discussed in the previous session, commercial space is taking the lead a lot of different areas, including R and D, A so called new space, so cyber security threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. Three US considers and federal access to and freedom to operate in space vital to advancing security, economic prosperity, prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country. That's making cyberspace an inseparable component. America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space force ah, year ago or so as the newest military service is like the other services. Its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect us and allied interest in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. Imagine combining that US space force with the U. S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of space and cyberspace operation strengthened U D capabilities and integrate and bolster d o d cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires had trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy as well as high technical skill set much like we're seeing in stem, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now the D. O. D. Is recognized the importance of the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage his growth Back in 2013 the deputy secretary of defense signed the D. O d cyberspace workforce strategy to create a comprehensive, well equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the D. O. D and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program or site up. It's an exchange programs, which is very interesting, in which a private sector employees can naturally work for the D. O. D. In a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas are important to the d. O. D. A key responsibility of cybersecurity community is military leaders on the related threats and cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talk about rapid that position, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation. Likewise, cybersecurity must keep up with this challenge to cyber security. Needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent investing the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity, workforce, streets, future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John. Thank you. >>Thank you so much bomb for those comments and you know, new challenges and new opportunities and new possibilities and free freedom Operating space. Critical. Thank you for those comments. Looking forward. Toa chatting further. Steve Jakes, executive director of N. S. S. A Europe opening statement. >>Thank you, John. And echoing bangs thanks to Cal Poly for pulling these this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, we on behalf the association delighted and honored Thio be on this panel with President Armstrong along with my friend and colleague Bonneau Glue Mahad Something for you all to know about Bomb. He spent the 1st 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve. Very few people do that. So bang on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your long life long devotion to service to our nation. We really appreciate that and I also echo a bang shot out to that guy Bill Britain, who has been a long time co conspirator of ours for a long time and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly Bill, keep it up. But professor arms trying to keep a close eye on him. Uh, I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by by President Armstrong and bahng. Uh, in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. Um, we all recently reflected again on that tragic 9 11 surprise attack on our homeland. And it's an appropriate time, we think, to take pause while the percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or babies then For the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9 11 has taught us a lot to include to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open to include those quote eyes and ears from space, making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect. Protecting our nation requires we work in a cybersecurity environment at all times. But, you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see him. No, sir, We see Space launches man there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch, they become invisible. So what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well, to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine by Bonds and my good friend Chuck Beans. Chuck. It's a space guy, actually had Bonds job a fuse in the Pentagon. He is now chairman and chief strategy officer at York Space Systems, and in his spare time he's chairman of the small satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand. So I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article. Uh, they're afraid somewhat. So these are Chuck's words. Let's talk about average Joe and playing Jane. Before heading to the airport for a business trip to New York City, Joe checks the weather forecast informed by Noah's weather satellites to see what pack for the trip. He then calls an uber that space app. Everybody uses it matches riders with drivers via GPS to take into the airport, So Joe has lunch of the airport. Unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made with the help of precision farming made possible through optimized irrigation and fertilization, with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS on the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, aided by GPS and nose weather satellites. And Joe makes his meeting on time to join his New York colleagues in a video call with a key customer in Singapore made possible by telecommunication satellites. Around to his next meeting, Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting to another to the other side of town. So he calmly tells Syria to adjust the destination, and his satellite guided Google maps redirects him to the new location. That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite. The report details a meeting among world leaders discussing the developing crisis in Syria. As it turns out, various forms of quote remotely sensed. Information collected from satellites indicate that yet another band, chemical weapon, may have been used on its own people. Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary as they cruise across the Atlantic, made possible again by communications satellites and Joe's parents can enjoy the call without even wondering how it happened the next morning. Back home, Joe's wife, Jane, is involved in a car accident. Her vehicle skids off the road. She's knocked unconscious, but because of her satellite equipped on star system, the crash is detected immediately and first responders show up on the scene. In time, Joe receives the news books. An early trip home sends flowers to his wife as he orders another uber to the airport. Over that 24 hours, Joe and Jane used space system applications for nearly every part of their day. Imagine the consequences if at any point they were somehow denied these services, whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. And each of these satellite applications used in this case were initially developed for military purposes and continue to be, but also have remarkable application on our way of life. Just many people just don't know that. So, ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to chuck beans, well, the United States has a proud heritage being the world's leading space faring nation, dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years. Today we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to quote, wash and listen, provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation and timing from our GPS system. Much of what you heard in Lieutenant General J. T. Thompson earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also our also to our quality of life is Chuck told us. We simply no longer could live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversary like adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing ketchup while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2000 and seven, China demonstrated it's a set system by actually shooting down is one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counter space systems to disrupt hours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to bay well as Bond mentioned, the United States has responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and in Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational you United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located. Vandenberg Air Force Base Combined with our intelligence community today, we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space. And that's a very, very good thing. Commence, really. On the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association devoted solely to supporting the national security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the D C area, but we have arms and legs across the country, and we are loaded with extraordinary talent. In scores of Forman, former government executives, So S s a is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway ranging from a number of thought provoking policy. Papers are recurring space time Webcast supporting Congress's Space Power Caucus and other main serious efforts. Check us out at NSS. A space dot org's One of our strategic priorities in central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development. Just like cow calling. We will work with our U. S. Government customers, industry leaders and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry and two assistant mentoring and training as their careers. Progress on that point, we're delighted. Be delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with him very soon. So students stay tuned something I can tell you Space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry work force is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists, method and mathematicians, but also with a large non technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets things thes systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board from cost estimating cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal and many other support. Tasker Integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff, no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. When summary as bang had mentioned Aziz, well, there is a great deal of exciting challenges ahead we will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead, and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Richard Branson are in the game, stimulating new ideas in business models, other private investors and start up companies. Space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and microelectronics now allows the potential for a plethora of small SAT systems to possibly replace older satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much, and I look forward to the further conversation. >>Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool. It's relevant. But it's important, as you pointed out, and you're awesome story about how it impacts our life every day. So I really appreciate that great story. I'm glad you took the time Thio share that you forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you. But that would add that to the story later. Great stuff. My first question is let's get into the conversations because I think this is super important. President Armstrong like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bang and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives. Through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation. There are opportunities now with with research and grants, and this is, ah, funding of innovation that it's highly accelerate. It's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >>Yeah, I really appreciate that And appreciate the comments of my colleagues on it really boils down to me to partnerships, public private partnerships. You mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockie Martin, Boeing, Raytheon Space six JPL, also member of organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science, and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity in space but those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward at Cal Poly Aziz mentioned we've been involved with Cube set. Uh, we've have some secure work and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Uh, those partnerships are essential not only for getting the r and d done, but also the students, the faculty, whether masters or undergraduate, can be involved with that work. Uh, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during Covic or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or our industry. Uh, and then they're even better equipped, uh, to hit the ground running. And of course, we'd love to see even more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that a secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical, and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest and all demographics of California and the US into this field, uh, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential, and our goal is to grow them just like I know other colleagues and C. S u and the U C are planning to dio, >>you know, just as my age I've seen I grew up in the eighties, in college and during that systems generation and that the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives. They were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bond talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud. And Bezos was mentioned. Elon Musk. Sir Richard Branson. You got new ideas coming in from the outside. You have an accelerated clock now on terms of the innovation cycles, and so you got to react differently. You guys have programs to go outside >>of >>the Defense Department. How important is this? Because the workforce that air in schools and our folks re skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table. So share your thoughts. >>No, thanks, John. Thanks for the opportunity responded. And that's what you hit on the notes back in the eighties, R and D in space especially, was dominated by my government funding. Uh, contracts and so on. But things have changed. As Steve pointed out, A lot of these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork funding R and D. So they're taking the lead. So what we can do within the deal, the in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done on. Uh, since they're they're, you know, paving the way to new new approaches and new way of doing things. And I think we can We could certainly learn from that. And leverage off of that saves us money from an R and D standpoint while benefiting from from the product that they deliver, you know, within the O D Talking about workforce development Way have prioritized we have policies now to attract and retain talent. We need I I had the folks do some research and and looks like from a cybersecurity workforce standpoint. A recent study done, I think, last year in 2019 found that the cybersecurity workforce gap in the U. S. Is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened off getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like assess a professor Armstrong indicated, because we're gonna need them to be in place. Uh, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so, Uh, on top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with with stamps students, we can't afford not to have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within the with the not only deal with the but the commercial side as well. Thank you. >>How's the gap? Get? Get filled. I mean, this is the this is again. You got cybersecurity. I mean, with space. It's a whole another kind of surface area, if you will, in early surface area. But it is. It is an I o t. Device if you think about it. But it does have the same challenges. That's kind of current and and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap Get filled, Steve Or President Armstrong? I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What is some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >>Steve, go ahead. I'll follow up. >>Okay. Thanks. I'll let you correct. May, uh, it's a really good question, and it's the way I would. The way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it up front. And it comes with our teaching, etcetera across the board and from from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it. We've gotta have secure systems with everything we do and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them. Eyes is so paramount to the whole the whole cycle, and and that's kind of and it really takes focused attention. And we continue to use the word focus from an NSS, a perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce on the government side, but not nearly enough of them. And likewise on industry side. We could use Maura's well, but when you get down to it, you know we can connect dots. You know that the the aspect That's a Professor Armstrong talked about earlier toe where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that. That network at that ecosystem the will of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power not just of one or two companies, but our our entire membership to help out >>President >>Trump. Yeah, I would. I would also add it again. It's back to partnerships that I talked about earlier. One of our partners is high schools and schools fortune Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of, uh, administrations in California across party lines and education. Their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly and visit our learned by doing lab and you, you've got to get students interested in stem at a early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running. And that's exacerbated and really stress. Now, with this covert induced recession, California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation. But that is that has dropped this year or reasons. We all understand, uh, due to Kobe, and so our partnerships, our creativity on making sure that we help those that need the most help financially uh, that's really key, because the gaps air huge eyes. My colleagues indicated, you know, half of half a million jobs and you need to look at the the students that are in the pipeline. We've got to enhance that. Uh, it's the in the placement rates are amazing. Once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, uh, placement rates are like 94%. >>Many of our >>engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just gonna take key partnerships working together. Uh, and that continued partnership with government, local, of course, our state of CSU on partners like we have here today, both Stephen Bang So partnerships the thing >>e could add, you know, the collaboration with universities one that we, uh, put a lot of emphasis, and it may not be well known fact, but as an example of national security agencies, uh, National Centers of Academic Excellence in Cyber, the Fast works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate its 45 future cyber first responders as an example, so that Zatz vibrant and healthy and something that we ought Teoh Teik, banjo >>off. Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point. I'd like to define what is a public private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped. It's a modern error. Things air accelerated get you got security. So you get all these things kind of happen is a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business. Andi in the public sector. So >>what is what >>is a modern public private partnership? What does it look like today? Because people are learning differently, Covert has pointed out, which was that we're seeing right now. How people the progressions of knowledge and learning truth. It's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public private partnership and some some examples and improve points? Can you can you guys share that? We'll start with the Professor Armstrong. >>Yeah. A zai indicated earlier. We've had on guy could give other examples, but Northup Grumman, uh, they helped us with cyber lab. Many years ago. That is maintained, uh, directly the software, the connection outside its its own unit so that students can learn the hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses, and I know that that has already had some considerations of space. But that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public private partnership has benefits to both entities. Uh, in the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the is the talent, the talent that is, that is needed, what we've been working on for years of the, you know, that undergraduate or master's or PhD programs. But now it's also spilling into Skilling and re Skilling. As you know, Jobs. Uh, you know, folks were in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago. But it also spills into other aspects that can expand even mawr. We're very fortunate. We have land, there's opportunities. We have one tech part project. We're expanding our tech park. I think we'll see opportunities for that, and it'll it'll be adjusted thio, due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before Cove it. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important. Um, I wanna make sure that I'm driving across the bridge. Or or that that satellites being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training, uh, to do that and that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on a campus, getting that experience expanding and as adult. And we're gonna need those public private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these stem and engineering fields. >>It's interesting People in technology can work together in these partnerships in a new way. Bank Steve Reaction Thio the modern version of what a public, successful private partnership looks like. >>If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically, Dodi's has have had, ah, high bar thio, uh, to overcome, if you will, in terms of getting rapid pulling in your company. This is the fault, if you will and not rely heavily in are the usual suspects of vendors and like and I think the deal is done a good job over the last couple of years off trying to reduce the burden on working with us. You know, the Air Force. I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days where companies come in, do a two hour pitch and immediately notified of a wooden award without having to wait a long time. Thio get feedback on on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best. Thio strengthen that partnership with companies outside the main group of people that we typically use. >>Steve, any reaction? Comment to add? >>Yeah, I would add a couple of these air. Very excellent thoughts. Uh, it zits about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone. You know, the world that Bond and Bond lives in and I used to live in in the past has been quite structured. It's really about we know what the threat is. We need to go fix it, will design it says we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Um, life is so much more complicated than that. And so it's it's really to me. I mean, you take you take an example of the pitch days of bond talks about I think I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, uh, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks in academia. Because we are all in this together in a lot of ways, for example. I mean, we just sent the paper to the White House of their requests about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective? And we hope Thio embellish on this over time once the the initiative matures. But we have a piece of it, for example, is the thing we call clear for success getting back Thio Uh, President Armstrong's comments at the collegiate level. You know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program they grabbed kids in their their underclass years identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this. Get them scholarships. Um, um, I have a job waiting for them that their contract ID for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with S C I clearance. We believe that could be done so, and that's an example of ways in which the public private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on Day one. We think those kind of things can happen. It just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, give them giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can like these days. >>That's a great point, E. President. >>I just want to jump in and echo both the bank and Steve's comments. But Steve, that you know your point of, you know, our graduates. We consider them ready Day one. Well, they need to be ready Day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's that's exciting, uh, and needed very much needed mawr of it. Some of it's happening, but way certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans, >>and that's a great example of good Segway. My next question. This kind of reimagining sees work flows, eyes kind of breaking down the old the old way and bringing in kind of a new way accelerated all kind of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue, and this is the next topic. How can we employ new creative solutions? Because, let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern. You know the programs you get you particularly through the system. This is this is multiple disciplines. Cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart and math and have, ah, degree in anthropology and even the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new new world. What are some creative approaches that >>you know, we're >>in the workforce >>is quite good, John. One of the things I think that za challenge to us is you know, we got somehow we got me working for with the government, sexy, right? The part of the challenge we have is attracting the right right level of skill sets and personnel. But, you know, we're competing oftentimes with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples of a big deal. And those are the same talents. We need to support a lot of programs we have in the U. D. So somehow we have to do a better job to Steve's point off, making the work within the U. D within the government something that they would be interested early on. So I tracked him early. I kind of talked about Cal Poly's, uh, challenge program that they were gonna have in June inviting high school kid. We're excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security, and so on those air something. So I think we have to do it. Continue to do what were the course the next several years. >>Awesome. Any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be on idea, or just a kind of stoked the ideation out their internship. So obviously internships are known, but like there's gotta be new ways. >>I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier getting students in high school, uh, and aligning them sometimes. Uh, that intern first internship, not just between the freshman sophomore year, but before they inter cal poly per se. And they're they're involved s So I think that's, uh, absolutely key. Getting them involved many other ways. Um, we have an example of of up Skilling a redeveloped work redevelopment here in the Central Coast. PG and e Diablo nuclear plant as going to decommission in around 2020 24. And so we have a ongoing partnership toe work on reposition those employees for for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond. Uh, but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the up skilling and re Skilling uh, on I think that's where you know, we were talking about that Purdue University. Other California universities have been dealing with online programs before cove it and now with co vid uh, so many more faculty or were pushed into that area. There's going to be much more going and talk about workforce development and up Skilling and Re Skilling The amount of training and education of our faculty across the country, uh, in in virtual, uh, and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on one final question as we in the in the segment. And we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where you know, SAS business model subscription. That's on the business side. But >>one of The >>things that's clear in this trend is technology, and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at the world now we're living in co vid um, Cal Poly. You guys have remote learning Right now. It's a infancy. It's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity to enable new ways to collaborate, Right? So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed? How these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery higher to build the workforce? These air opportunities? How do you guys view this new digital transformation? >>Well, I think there's there's a huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium. We're filming this on one day, and it's going to stream live, and then the three of us, the four of us, can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing. And I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this this symposium, I think there's more and more that we can do from a Cal poly perspective with our pedagogy. So you know, linked to learn by doing in person will always be important to us. But we see virtual. We see partnerships like this can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in person time, decrease the time to degree enhanced graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps or students that don't have the same advantages. S so I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the up Skilling and Re Skilling, where employees air all over, they can be reached virtually then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. Eso I'm I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's gonna be different with every university with every partnership. It's one. Size does not fit all. >>It's so many possibilities. Bond. I could almost imagine a social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the d o. D. Possibly in the future. But >>these are the >>kind of kind of crazy ideas that are needed. Are your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross policy? >>I think technology is gonna be revolutionary here, John. You know, we're focusing lately on what we call digital engineering to quicken the pace off, delivering capability to warfighter. As an example, I think a I machine language all that's gonna have a major play and how we operate in the future. We're embracing five G technologies writing ability Thio zero latency or I o t More automation off the supply chain. That sort of thing, I think, uh, the future ahead of us is is very encouraging. Thing is gonna do a lot for for national defense on certainly the security of the country. >>Steve, your final thoughts. Space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people. Your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity >>Such a great question in such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Um echoing are my colleague's sentiments. I would add to it. You know, a lot of this has I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. Um, you know, we're not attuned to doing things fast. Uh, but the dramatic You know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now. I think it ties back Thio hoping Thio, convince some of our senior leaders on what I call both sides of the Potomac River that it's worth taking these gamble. We do need to take some of these things very way. And I'm very confident, confident and excited and comfortable. They're just gonna be a great time ahead and all for the better. >>You know, e talk about D. C. Because I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies in Congress and Senate. So I was getting job when I say that. Sorry. Presidential. Go ahead. >>Yeah, I know. Just one other point. Uh, and and Steve's alluded to this in bonded as well. I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships. That doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And I would also I have a zoo. You talk about technology. I have to reflect on something that happened in, uh, you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing a traditional data a data warehouse, data storage data center, and we partner with a W S. And thank goodness we had that in progress on it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before Cove. It hit on with this partnership with the digital transformation hub. So there is a great example where, uh, we we had that going. That's not something we could have started. Oh, covitz hit. Let's flip that switch. And so we have to be proactive on. We also have thio not be risk averse and do some things differently. Eyes that that is really salvage the experience for for students. Right now, as things are flowing, well, we only have about 12% of our courses in person. Uh, those essential courses, uh, and just grateful for those partnerships that have talked about today. >>Yeah, and it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these air themes that expand into space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you. very much for sharing your insights. I know. Bang, You're gonna go into the defense side of space and your other sessions. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time for great session. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube here in Palo Alto, California Covering and hosting with Cal Poly The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering. Get lab commit 2020 Brought to you by get lab. >>I am stupid, man, and this is the Cubes coverage of Get Lab. Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. Still hard saying 2020 and not thinking we're in the future. Joining us first time on the program. Darren Murph, who's the head of remote at get lab and a little birdie, told me that he also has a Guinness Book of World record. So, >>Darren, before we get >>into your day job, bring us back, is it? It's, uh, it's an interesting thing. >>Yeah, it's true. Surreal to have their records. So I'm the world's most prolific professional blogger, which is kind of crazy of Britain. About 10 million words or so When the record was given, it was about 17,000 articles, which was an article published every two hours, 24 7 for four straight years, which actually makes my chest hurt just a bit saying that out loud. >>But Darrin, I'm going thio going to do the Turing test right now >>because I'm not sure you're human being. I have been a blogger. When I had my regular cadence of 2 to 3 articles a week and knew the you know, 10 p.m. When the kids were in bed when I would do that stuff. The amount of words you're saying, um, you know that does not compute with me, but amazing stuff. Congratulations on. And you still you don't keep up that pace >>anymore. Try actually, part of >>my job here, get Lab is to make the all remote section of our handbook a lot bigger and better than it. ISS. So I'm still cranking away very different capacity than covering consumer electronics, but still cranking. Yeah, all right. >>Remote? Yes. Really interesting topic. When we talk about the future of work, you talk about the gig economy. There's all these ways that, you know, how do we leverage and enable global and changing workforce? And it's really fascinating. Get lab over 1100 employees and completely remote keynote this morning talked about, you know, the woman in New Zealand that's completely cut off with everything except for the Internet. She does her own power and everything like that, but she could just be part of the team and you don't even know. So tell us a little bit. What does that mean? Head of remote for your >>old. So as we've grown, it's It's interesting. There's an intersection of hiring and recruiting, talent branding, but also process. So we have a lot of people joining the company that come from co located spaces. And there's a certain acclamation period to getting used to remote and doing remote. Well, you think about people that have joined a co located company. They walk into an office where they've had a professional design, their office space. So they have ergonomic chairs, ergonomic monitors. Everything is set up for them. But if you're working from home or working for some wires from somewhere outside of an office, now that's on. You did. How do you do meetings? Well, how do you do? A synchronous Well, so part of my role is to work through those processes to make sure everyone, when they're on board and get lab, is giving the best possible experience. If they're coming into a remote role for the first time, >>you do you have any bias towards it makes sense to just build it in my home. Is it good to go to Oh, You know, I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and there's this cool place where I can go where they have good coffee and the people I can hang out with everything in between. What are some of the best >>practices there? The beauty of all remote is we don't say you have to work from home. You can work from anywhere. So wherever you're most comfortable, maybe that's a co working space. Maybe that's at a friend's house. Maybe that's a different place. Every month we have people that travel all around the world and every month or in a different time zone. That's the beauty of it. So we have over 1100 employees, but none of them operate their days quite the same as anyone else, and that that's the beauty of a super diverse and inclusive team. And, well, actually reimburse co working space expensing expenses. If you just feel more comfortable working in a group or you need to leave your home for any reason. Okay, >>um, we talked to sit a little bit about, you know, does this remote work for every type of job? His feedback from the light Combinator people were like, If you're in finance, It might not be the best fit on dhe one. Understand? How does the software help does it if if I'm someone that's doing development, you know, doesn't poke me every once in a while and say, Hey, you know, maybe you should eat and sleep every once in a while And you know, you've been going at this a little long time, you know? How does both the kind of the kind of HR and the technology piece fit together? >>Well, we hire people that are managers of one, so having a high degree of autonomy is really important. So you need to have a lot of self awareness in managing your day, and that includes taking breaks. And so we encourage people to take vacation, take breaks whenever they need it, and again everyone is different. So we enable people to take that as they need that. But no doubt when you're hiring, you want to look for things like that. It helps to have some experience in the working world, definitely with interns in junior level level level people, you need to check in with them more often because managing their own time and themselves when you're not in an office setting can feel a bit far, but actually get lab. The product is tailor made for remote teams because it's built by remote and even on the marketing side of things where no code really is involved. We use it to manage entire projects and entire events. And the beauty of that is it hones in on documentation, which is essential to do remote. Well, so we say any part of a project that you're moving forward try to move that forward and add context in a way that someone else who may be asleep right now when they wake up and read your stuff along the way they have context of what you did and can pick it up from there and move it on to the next step so that that helps us work really well, remotely. But honestly, that is probably useful for co located teams as well. And so a lot of people look at us as all you know, you have this all remote team. Things must be drastically different, but the truth is, all remote forces you to do things that you should be doing anyway. Transparency, documentation iteration. We just have to do them much more quickly and much more intentionally. >>Yeah, when everybody gets together event like this, Are they okay being on the same room, or do they want to go documents and things and hand things off? >>The funny thing about that is people will often say I don't know if I could I could work well in a remote environment because I really love the energy of being with other people. And the truth is in person, interactions are vital to a remote company. We have to be really intentional about that as well. So we get a CZ many people, as we can together for things like get lab, commit and get lab, contribute where we invite the entire company. But the subtle differences when you're in a co located space and you see people on a daily basis, sometimes you can take for granted in person interactions you have because you think I'll just see them again and again and again, but never in a remote setting. When you have to be intentional about when you'll see a person, it's it's there's a certain level of energy and, um, you proactively look forward to moments like that because you don't get them is often. So we build a lot of great bonds and relationships around those key in person moments. >>Is there anything along the communication technologies that you recommend you use video conference thing or, you know, phone calls? Or you know what some of the recommended How do I make sure you get, you know, some high bandwith interacting? >>There's a few tools that we use that didn't exist not too long ago, but because they exist now they've made all remote as a concept far more approachable and feasible. Google Docks is a big one. We cover agendas and things like that and something that could be edited by multiple people at once. Zuma's another one. Zoom is really amazing for video communication because many, many dozens of people hundreds of people, could be on the same call. And with very little technical difficulty, everyone can communicate well, which has been amazing for us being able to see each other on connect on a meaningful in a meaningful way, and the last one is actually get lab the product. So we build our handbooks. We have over 3000 pages of publicly accessible Get Live Handbook, How We Do Everything that is All publicly available on the Web and built and edited by Get Lab the product. So as we use get lab product to edit and iterated on their handbook, we as a get lab team see things that could be done better, more efficiently, and that gives us a flywheel of making the product better and then making the handbook better. So, >>Darren, I'm just curious where there any kind of interesting findings that you've had, uh, going to a company this size now with everything remote that you know, surprises >>the team. Well, I've worked remotely my entire career in different stages of remote. So some of the companies have been about 50 50 and some have been most of the people in the office. And then I've been one of maybe 10% of the company that works. Outside of it, you see all different facets of how people and companies communicate when you're in a hybrid remote setting. But the beautiful thing about all remote is it truly makes everyone a first class citizen. So a lot of people will say in a hybrid setting. If I don't go to the office frequently enough, miss out on some things. Or maybe I miss out on praise or promotion opportunities. Things like that. You feel like a second class citizen. So in, in in, in an environment like that, you have to take certain approaches to include people. You have to think about it intentionally to include those remote individuals, whereas if it's all remote, you're all on a level playing field. I think the other interesting thing is we have an amazingly diverse team over 65 countries because we hire the world's best talent from wherever they are. And so you'll be talking with someone on a call and you'll just see what's in their background. You think that looks completely foreign to where I am, and it's an amazing way to engage with someone and learn about them, learn about a new culture and truly keep a more global perspective. And lastly, all remote enables a workforce that may have been rejected at other stages of the workforce. So things like caregivers or working parents or military spouses where their spouse has to move at each new deployment. Ah, lot of these people might say, You know, it's too complicated to continue to reinvent my career with every move along the way in an all remote setting. Your job goes with you as those changes in life happened. And I just think that's going to become more than Norm, where the notion of moving for a career will seem silly, like the career should just follow you, no matter where life takes you. >>Yeah, I guess that lets follow upon that is we've reached a point where people expect, you know, immediate response. It's a text. It's something like that. When I'm dealing with dispersed and remote, how do you make How do you is that something you deal with? Is it something that is a team monitoring and handling that? But how do I make sure that I'm a little? I would I think, that it has to be a little bit more forgiving of not being an instant response. >>I tell you, all remote is actually much better for your mental health insanity than other settings, and it's because it forces us to work a synchronously. There's no other way to do it. We have people spread or call 65 countries, so almost every time zone is covered. But that also means there's almost a guarantee that someone on your team isn't a vastly different times, so they may be asleep the entire time. Europe working. We also allow people to just structure their day day today differently, depending on what they have going on appointments, things they need to attend to with their Children, things like that. So within a single as mindset, it enables all of us to take a step back and just assume that whatever we're doing is done with no one else online, so it can removes the burden of this nonstop string of slag messages where you have to respond to things immediately within a given time frame. We don't operate in that construct. I'll tell you, just from a mental health standpoint, when you have an entire company that embraces that were all given a little more breathing room to do really good. Deep work requires long periods of uninterrupted time, and we've seen massive improvements on the product and just team morale. When we embrace that and I feel like as a whole as a society, we're getting close to a tipping point where people are just to their limit on how many more slack messages or e mails or pings or urgent, urgent, urgent things they could do while also doing their job well. So we may be a little bit ahead of the curve on that. But my hope is that the industry at large embraces that allows the people more time to actually do the work they were hired. >>Darren Murph love the idea. Hope it definitely spreads beyond. Everybody absolutely can use the breathing room and being able to focus because we we know that multitasking really is a myth when it comes down to it. So great to be able to chat with you in person and thank you for all the >>work you're doing. A remote. Thanks for having me here. I appreciate it. All right, check out the cube dot net for all of our coverage, whether you were at an event or watching remote or after it, >>we've got all the content for you to meet him in. Thank you for watching the Cube

(upbeat music) >> Hi, and welcome to another Cube Conversation where we speak with thought leaders in depth about the topics that are most important to the overall technology community. I'm Peter Burris, your host. Every business inspires to be a digital business, which is every business, faces a significant challenge. They need to use their data in new and value creating ways. But some of that data is not lending itself to new applications, new uses because it's locked up in formats, in technologies and applications that don't lend themselves to change. That's one of the big challenges that every business faces. What can they do to help unlock, to help liberate their data from older formats and older approaches so they can create new sources of value with it. To have that conversation, we're joined by a great guest. Greg Tinker is the CTO and Founder of SereneIT. Greg, welcome back to theCube. >> Thank you Peter, very appreciate it buddy. >> It's been a long time. This is your first time here with SereneIT so why don't you tell us a little bit about SereneIT. >> Sure, so at a high level we are a technology partner. SereneIT focuses on the next generation model structures of engineering first. There's a lot of VARS, in simplest terms, I would say we're a value at a reseller, sure. But we capitalize and focus just on the VA. Anybody can bring VR. The legacy approach of just being a reseller is no longer valid in our industry. Complexities and trying to have a situation where you can liberate data, try to take it from a legacy entrenched model, process, procedure and go into a new modern IT software defined ecosystem is very complex. And our objective is to make the, enablement of IT serene or simple and that's where SereneIT comes from. >> You know, I love the name but if you go back 20 years as you said, the asset that IT was focused on and took care of was the hardware. >> That's right. >> And we bought the hardware from a reseller, they just made the installations, configurations and what not. But as you said, today we're focused on the data. That's the asset. >> That's correct. >> And just as we used to have challenges uplifting and all the things we had to do with hardware, we're having similar types of challenges when you think about how to apply data to new uses, sustain that asset feature of it but apply it in new ways to create new value. As you talk to customers, what is the problem that you find they're encountering as they try to think what to do with their high value traditional data? So there's actually, I'll call it three strategic problems. Becoming to where it to be a workload optimized model structures or your data driven intelligence, trying to pull something out of the data model, trying to pull something out of the data, make it tangible to the business. And then trying to figure out a way to make it easy to enable the users, that is the employees to do something with the data the have. Making it more of a cloud-centric approach. Everybody wants that easy button now. So at a high level, trying to make that a possibility is where we spend our time today. And give you a quick example of that would be legacy block storage. We do a lot in the storage world. And we focus on software defined storage apparatus or solutions. So a lot of our clients are kind of mired down with legacy block, via Fibre Channel basics that were great for their era. But today with cost being a big factor in trying to be able to leverage an ecosystem where I can take my data, wherever my data sits and leverage it on multiple different apparatuses, be it BlueData, be in Kubernetes, be it name your favorite Docker solution. Trying to be able to use that in an ecosystem in a software defined hyper cloud, doing that on a legacy block is very problematic. And that's where we help customers transition from that legacy mindset, legacy IT infrastructure into a more of a modern software defined data program. >> So what's talk about that. Because there's a more modern technology, but really what they're doing is they're saying, look I've got this data, using these protocols like Fibre Channel with these applications and it's doing its job. >> That's right. >> But I want to create options on how I might use that data in the future, options that aren't available to me or aren't available to my business if it stays locked inside Fibre Channel for example. >> That's correct. >> So what you're really doing, is you're giving them paths to new options with their data that can be sustained whatever the technology is. Have I got that right? >> In a nutshell, Frank I would agree with your sentiment on that, your comment is spot on. We take customers data, we look at the business as a whole. And we focus on, what is the core of the business? Be it, maybe it's a High-Performance Computing Cluster Maybe it's a Oracle, Cyrus, Informant name your favorite data base structure. Maybe it's MapR, maybe it's a Dupe. We look at the business and determine, how are we using that data? How much data do we need? What's my data working set size? Understanding that and then we actually would design a solution that will be a software defined ecosystem that we can move that data in. And nine times out of 10 we can do it on the fly. Rarely, rarely ever do we have an outage to do it. Or that might be a small few minute outage window when we do a cut over, where we keep everything in mirroring Lockstep . >> Well that's one of the beauties of software defined is that you have those kinds of flexibilities. >> That's right. >> But think of, so talk to me a little bit about the you are, the customer realizes they have a problem. They find you guys. >> Sure. >> So how do they find you? >> So we do a lot with large scale Fortune 50, Fortune 100, the large scale enterprise businesses. And we do that with our, we're known in the engineering world, big accounts, because of our backdrop in HP engineering. And so HP brings us a lot into these accounts to help them solve a big business problem. So that's how a lot of our customers are finding us today. We are reaching out with media, like theCube here to talk to clients about the fact that we do exist and that we exist to help them consume a more modern IT in footprint. To help them go from that legacy model into that more modern model. >> Okay, so the customer realizes they have a problem, HPE and others, help identify you guys, matches you together. You show up, how do you work with the customer? Is it your big brains and the customer passive? Or you're working side by side to help them accelerate their journey? >> We find it best that we do it in a cohesive manner. We sit down and have a long discussion with their, usually their Chief Executive officer, their CTO, Chief Technology Officer, we'll sit down and talk about the business constraints. And then we'll go down to the directors the guys on the front lines that see the problems on a day to day basis. And we look at where their constraints are. Is it performance, IOP driven. Nine times out of 10, those problems are no longer there. They were solved years ago. Today it's more about the legacy model of, let me log a ticket to stand up a new virtual machine to a SQL database to do this application. So I've logged the ticket, a week two later I finally get a virtual machine. And now I got to get five more teams engaged, I get it online. Total business takes about a month to get some new apparatus up. Where if we go into a software defined ecosystem where we have these playbooks and this model written for the business, we can do that in 10 minutes. Be it on Nutanix do it with SimpliVity, VMware models, we don't' differentiate that. We let the customer tell us which one they use. 'Cause everybody has their liking. Be it some are VMware shop, some are Hyper-V, some are KBM. We do all of them. >> But the point is you want to help them move form an old world that was focused on executing the tasks associate with bringing the system up to a new world that's focused on the resources being able to configure themselves, being able to bring to bring themselves up test themselves in a software defined manner introducing some of those DevOps processes. Whatever the technology is, they have the people and the process to execute the technology. >> That's exactly right, because the technology in a nutshell. If you look at just technology itself that's not the hard part. Not for us anyway, 'cause we're an engineering team that's what we do well. The data driven intelligence stuff and helping customers bring more value out of their data. We can help them with that and show them exactly how we would do it. Be it a different technologies and stuff and we'll get into that discussion later. But the biggest problem we see is the people and processes which you just mentioned. Pushing the button, achieve an objective. That is where the old way of being very ticket driven Siloed approach, really slow down the economics of business. Was a huge driving force of not achieving the ROI that you actually set out to do years ago. Where we have one client that has a little over 4,000 servers and how my team and I explain it to the clients. Come out to the Golden Gate bridge. January 1 you start painting. December 30th you're done painting and January 1 you start painting again. You never get done. It's always getting painted. Patching of these large scale enterprises is the exact same way. You can't patch all the servers on a Saturday. You can't patch three thousand machines, BIOS, firmware, the list goes on. What we do for them is we actually put in an apparatus engine, basically an automation engine and instead of an army of 10 people doing firmware or BIOS and all the stuff updates, we automated 100% of that entire process. That's what SereneIT does. Help a customer take a, could be a legacy model, bare metal machine and show them how we can automate the bare metal machine. We can do the exact same thing in any hypervisor on the planet today. >> So that it's done faster, simpler. The outcome is more predictable. The result is more measurable. >> Yes. >> That's really great stuff. Let's go back to this notion of data because we kind of started with this idea of data and having to evolve the formats increasing the flexibility of it's utilization. We talked about hypervisors and all that technology is kind of sucking it forward, bringing that data forward making it possible to do things with it, but still the data itself is a major challenge. How are you working with customers to get them to envision the new data world independent of some of these other technologies? >> Sure, okay. So yeah, we have clients right now, we have (mumbled) systems these are global file systems that have enormous amount of data in it, some of it is compiled code logics for drivers and firmware and Kernel code structure that are forthcoming technologies that aren't even released yet. We have clients that have data based structure with ascii text is very common road driven. We have customers that have flat ascii files that are just flat text files. So we help the customers grab data from that existing data footprint for new lines of business. Determine what are we touching, how are we touching and how often are we touching it and why are we touching it? Case in point, when you have a large manufacturer doing chip design and your looking at a global file system you're trying to give assertation data as to what drivers are our developers working on most frequently. In the medical community, we have a client we're working on at global scale, we're doing real time data analytics to figure out if we're doing SQL injection from a hacker. So we show them exactly how we can do this in an inline driver stack and show them how to do it with the technology reducing their actual CapEx expend. There's legacy tools out there that work great. You know one of these is like, I won't give names of product and stuff, but there's a lot of cool technologies that's been around for a long time. >> That works. >> That works. >> And it just needs a smart person, or a smart team to put it together so it can be applied. >> That's what we've been doing with our clients is trying to show them that we can take the data that you have, be it flat ascii files or binary data structures. And we can show them that we can give you data analytics and pull that back. We have another client in law industry that we manage worldwide and we do e-discovery. On trying to figure out phrases and things that are maybe concerning to them in a financial world that is the global market. And we're able to give them that data structure on their own intellectual property and we give that to them in real time. We give them a dashboard so they can log in to the dashboard and they can see real time data transparency at a moments notice, so they can tell what the market is doing in Britain or they can tell what the market is doing in Singapore or U.S. by just looking at a dashboard and we're pulling data back. And we're pulling it from outside of world data points, this could be Facebook. Real time feeds, news, media and we pull it from internal data feeds. Email transactions that are going from their financial, they have like CIO's the Chief Investment Officers. Most people think of that as an information officer, right? So we're able to pull data from that and show them that they have a great deal of intellectual property at their fingertips that honestly they've never used before and that's what we're helping customers do today. >> Greg Tinker, Founder, CTO SereneIT. Thanks so much for being on theCube. >> Thank you very much Peter. >> And once again want to thank you for listening to this Cube Conversation. Until next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering Nutanix.Next 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of .Next Copenhagen Nutanix. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside of Stu Miniman. We're joined by Craig Routledge, he is the vice president HPE GreenLake Sales. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, good afternoon. >> So why don't you start by telling our viewers a little bit about HPE and GreenLake. >> So HPE is the part of the old HP empire that's focused specifically on the hybrid computing world. So in the data sensors, the hybrid cloud world, and the edge and we're providing technology and services to our customers and our channel partners. And will continue to do so. And the announcement that we've made this week here in Copenhagen, is the announcement of GreenLake for Nutanix. >> So I'm not sure how much of our audience is very familiar with it. I've got plenty of experience with the various HP cloud initiatives over the years. But this is you know, at it's core, as a service as my understanding and help us understand where that fits in a customers over all kind of cloud portfolio. >> Yeah if you kind of take it back to the go back to real basics, actually almost before cloud. The customers access HP technology and infrastructures through capital purchase, through leasing, and some cases through subscription models, as the industry calls them. And then GreenLake was born about nine years ago in fact to help customers match cost to revenue. So it's a pay-per-use model. And that's where it was originally born. Before really the cloud was almost it was kind of around but not really in any scale. And then over the years, we've adapted GreenLake to be the private cloud solution for many direct customers then for channel customers, for service providers and partners. And now we've added the Nutanix partnership as well which, we've been announced as being ready for sale today onstage. Which is great timing by my engineering team I'm pleased to say. They were up late last night finishing it off. So its gradually evolving but were not just doing the private world, we're increasingly working in an environment where the equipment is installed in a colo. But it's still dedicated to that customer. Its not a shared service. And we're also increasingly, through out analytics portal, connecting to the public cloud world. So we've announced we have significant partnerships with the public cloud providers. And we can meter and monitor the customers usage in that solution. So we can provide a single tool set that gives them the private cloud usage and who's using it, and connect them to the public cloud world so they can get the same functionality in the pubic cloud. So they can see how much our marketing department are spending on computing storage, and networking and virtualization et cetera. >> It's a very different way for customers to think about it and many ways it should become more natural. If I got it right, I heard you say, its by the VM, or the container or by a certain flash increment. Maybe explain that a little bit? And you know, when and where would a customer say, "Oh well I need an increment of something that underneath "has Nutanix." >> Ah well it's interesting, you make in interesting point there actually. It is about customers buying work clothes, its the same way you buy a film on Netflix, or you buy a series or you might choose to buy episodes two, three, five, ten and 12 but not the whole book effectively. Not the whole library. And you buy that by the units of measure. So in Netflix, its a video or something. In the GreenLake world, its by virtual machine, at the VRAM level effectively. It could be by container, so it's the actual kubernetes container level. It can be at the gigabyte of high performing storage level. So we've disconnected the linkage between infrastructures. So the customer doesn't choose that infrastructure. The customer gives us a workload, and then we specify how that workload is designed. We have some recommended architectures. We're just about to launch the second dissertation of our quoting tools, so that a customer can get a quote on their smartphone, or our sales people in the pilot stages will be able to produce a quote on the phone. Now when that moves into operation, its our service team that are monitoring the customers usage 24 by seven. We own the metering and the management technologies. So we can snapshot the customers usage in their infrastructure environment, as often as we need to. So on Black Friday, you can guarantee we snapshot every retail customer in our portfolio at least every 30 minutes. And if there's a financial services crisis, as various presidents pick a fight with a global trade war. Share prices bounce up and down >> Not naming names. >> And dollars go in different directions and the RMB goes you need to meter the usage very rapidly, very accurately, and very often. And that's what our metering technology does. Now the service part of this, is not only do we kind of make sure that's all running 24 by seven, part of our service is to do the capacity management for the customers. So we take that responsibility off them. And if we think that the portal is telling us and the intelligence built into the portal, and into the experienced service managers saying, "You need an upgrade, we need to upgrade this piece." Then we can produce a change control note, one or two days, sign it, and then we can get some more infrastructure capacity rolled in of the chosen architecture for that customer. >> Just describing what you were saying about the retailers on Black Friday, and then watching the currency fluctuate based on whatever our world leaders are tweeting about. How has this in your mind changed the way the business world works today? Just the fact that we can see all this information this real time data. >> Its changed the speed and I think it it's the change of speed at which companies like ourselves have got to operate. And I think it's changed the speed at which the IT teams inside the end customers got to operate. And they get, I think they probably got the harder job than we have. An IT manager in an organization these days, not only has to watch those macro factors, the dollar going up and down, Britain finally sorts out its position on Brexit, we won't go into that one. And the IT team have got to look at that and see the impact on the business. But they also got to cope with the very rapidly changing environment. And a whole user base, I mean I don't know if any of you I presume you had to download the app on your smart phones. You press it, and if it doesn't download in three seconds, you're going, "Is something wrong here?" and that level of expectation in terms of the delivery of new application requests, is inherent in the user base now. Particularly the younger people are coming through in the wave of early stage employees and our customers. They expect instant gratification almost. They want a new app. They're a bit vague about how they want it to run, but they want it today. Now. And they want to pay a low volume price per click basis. So that's kind of, we're partly reacting to many of those trends. Part of our solution is in fact we provide, if we think the initial sizes, lets just say we need 500 Vms. Or we need 400 Nutanix and GreenLake licenses. We always provide a buffer. And in the early stage, lets say its 20 percent buffer. And that gives the customer some overflow room. So not only when we provision above their utilization but without a buffer to de-risk it for them. At our risk. And that's to make sure the service is seamless. And that's something that IT departments are not used to. But it matches the expectation of the internalized, I call them the IT consumers really, in business. Or customers of a bank. You know you dial your bank up on your app and you want to know what your balance is. And if you want to move money from that account to that account, you want it to go straight away. But I had a chasting experience on Sunday. My bank, they've got the app is online on Sunday. But they don't move money on the weekends. Am I'm like what? (chuckles) That was a bit stunning. And so my expectation is fueled by this kind of instant society that we live in. Yeah. >> So its order able now? >> Craig: Yes. Its order able now, we finished it >> Available? >> Available within 30 days. I mean, we think we'll have it available by the end of the month for delivery. >> Great and from a customer standpoint, will the customer be asking for Nutanix GreenLake? How does it, how do you give them the decision tree or is it a customer saying, " I wanted Nutanix." >> We have some people that are far more technically oriented than I am, technically literate than I am. We have some pre sales specialists inside the Nutanix team and inside the HP team. And we have some sizing tools as well to help us. So if the customer comes to us and says they want a particular workload, because we've expanded the choice, if they are talking to HP we'll look at what's the right solution. And if its Nutanix, then we use the Nutanix pre sales teams to help us. And that seems to be a very popular message in the marketplace. And is resonating very well. So we're helping the customer make a choice and obviously in a indirect motion, the partners will be helping the customer make that choice. And then coming us to, they'll specify the technology solution and they'll come to us with a specification. We'll turn that into a detailed specification. And a detailed cost and contract. >> So just GreenLake has been around for nine years now is this the first HCI based offering in the GreenLake portfolio? >> We've been working on the, we've had GreenLake on SimplyVity, which is the HP owned HCI solution. Two and a half, maybe three years now. And very successfully, its working very well in a few large cases. But it works different it works at a different level with different scaling parameters. So this is actually, the Nutanix partnership, and the reason why the two CEO's were excited, was this gives the customer another choice. And it gives them another choice other than the default virtualization engine, which everybody uses. And it also brings in the Nutanix expertise in end user computing, they call it VDI as I would call it. But that expertise and in the database world, it brings their expertise in that space is very valuable to us. So it augments our portfolio, and it brings two solutions to them. Not just the GreenLake solution, pay per use solution. But it also bring the proven HP server technology into their appliance portfolio. >> And the alignment on the optionality ] is really what is also driving this. >> Yes. And it is, we're both genuinely believe in customer choice in options. If the customer only got one choice, A: you've only given what the customer one choice and you might win or might lose, but you're going to have a resentful customer. If the customer says they want to go with HP and we only give them one choice, or can only give them one choice. Doesn't make for a long term relationship. And certainly I think both companies, HP clearly we believe having you know, lifetime we value a customer for its lifetime relationship with us. So its very important that we offer the customer choice, then narrow down to the right solution, refine that solution and draw it up into a contract. >> Excellent, so it's the right choice. Craig Routledge you are now a Cube alum. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage from .Next.

>> live from Washington, D. C. It's the Cube covering a ws public sector summit by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back, everyone. You are watching the Cuban. We're kicking off our day two of our live coverage a ws public sector summit here in our nation's capital. I'm Rebecca Knight co hosting with John Fer Yer John. It's great to be here. 18,000 people having important conversations around around governments and cloud computing. Let's extract the signal from the noise. Let's do with the Cube. Does best, >> Yeah, I mean, this is to me a really exciting event because it's got the confluence of what we love tech and cloud computing and all the awesomeness of that and that enables. But even in Washington, D. C. With the backdrop against tech clash on this, you know, narrative run tech for illah tech for bad, bad check whatever you want to call it. Anti trust is a lot of narratives around that there's a huge story around check for good. So I think there's an interesting balance there around the conversations, but this is world of heavy hitters are this week You've got senior people at the government level here, you have senior tech people hear all kind of meddling and trying to figure out howto let the tail winds of cloud computing Dr Change within government against this backdrop of tech for ill as Jay Carney, whose the global marketing policy guy for Amazon on reports to Jeff Bezos, former Obama press secretary. He's super savvy on policy, super savvy on tech. But this is a really big point in time where the future's gonna be determined by some key people and some key decisions around the role of technology for society, for the citizens, United States, for nation states as people start to figure out the role of data and all the impact of this so super exciting at that level, but also dangerous and people are telling a little bit. But I also want to run hard. That's pretty much the big story. >> So let's let's let's get into this tech backlash because you're absolutely right. Through the public, sentiment about technology and the tech behemoths has really soured. The regulators are sharpening their blades and really paying much more attention, uh, particularly because so many people say, Hey, wait a minute, why? How does Google and Facebook know all this stuff about me, but what do you think? What are we hearing on the ground in terms of where regulation is going? Before, before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about this idea of regulators working closely with the innovators, observing but not meddling. I mean, do you think that that's that's That's these dollars underwears We're going in? >> Well, not really. I think that that's where people wanted to go in. I think right now the the surprise attack of tech taking over, if you will in the minds of people and or without Israel or not, it's happened, right? So I was talking yesterday around how the Internet, when Bill Clinton was president, really grew a little bit slower than the pace of this today. But they did a good job of managing that they had private sectors take over the domain name system. We saw that grow that created in the open Web and the Web was open. Today it's different. It's faster in terms of technology innovation, and it's not as open. You have Facebook, LinkedIn and these companies that have silos of data, and they're not sharing it with cyber security General Keith Alexander, former head of the NSA and the first commander of cyber command in the U. S. The United States under Obama. He pointed out that visibility into the cyber attacks aren't there because there's no sharing of data. We heard about open data and knishes from a think tank. The role of data and information is going to be a critical conversation, and I don't think the government officials are smart enough and educated enough yet to understand that So regulatory groups want to regulate they don't know how to. They're reaching out the Amazons, Google's and the Facebook to try to figure out what's going on. And then from there they might get a path. But they're still in the early stages. Amazon feels like they're not harming anyone there. Lower prices, fast delivery, more options. They're creating an enablement environment for tons of startups, so they feel like they're not harming anyone. You're the antitrust, but if they're going to being monopolizing the market place, that's another issue. But I still think Amazon still an enabling mode, and I think you know, they're just running so hard. It's going so fast, I think there's gonna be a big challenge. And if industry doesn't step up and partner with government, it's going to be a real mess. And I think it's just moving too fast. It's very complicated. Digital is nuanced. Now. You get the role of data all this place into into into effect there. >> Well, you're absolutely right that it's going fast. Teresa Carlson on the other day talking about eight of US growth, UH, 41% year over year and she said, Cloud is the new normal. The cloud cloud is here more and more governments on state and local, really recognizing and obviously international countries to recognize that this, this is they're adopting these cloud first approach is, >> yeah, I mean, I think the first approach is validated 100%. There's no debate. I think it's not an ah ha moment. Cloud Israel. Amazon has absolutely proven since the CIA deal in 2013 that this is a viable strategy for government to get to value fast, and that is the whole speed of cloud game. It's all about time to value with agility. Eccentric center. We've been talking about that with Dev Ops for a long, long time. The real thing that I think's happening that's going on. That's kind of, you know, to read the tea leaves and we'll hear from Corey Quinn. Our host at large will go on later. This is a new generation of talent coming on board and this new generation. It feels like a counterculture mindset. These are Dev ops, mindset, people not necessarily Dev ops like in the Cloud Computing Way. They're younger, they're thinking differently, and they think like Amazon not because they love Amazon, because that's their nature. Their got their getting content in a digital way, their digital natives. They're born into that kind of cultural mindset. Of what is all this nonsense red tape? What's the bottlenecked in solving these problems? There's really not a good answer anymore, because with cloud computing and machine learning an A I, you can solve things faster. So if you expose the data, smart people go well. That's a problem that could be song. Let's solve it. So I think there's going to be a resurgence is going to be a renaissance of of younger people, kind of in a counter culture way that's going to move fast and an impact society and I think it's gonna happen pretty quickly over the next 10 years. >> Well, that's one of the things that's so inspiring about being at a conference like this one a ws public sector summit, Because we are hearing getting back to what you just said. We're solving problems and these air problems about not just selling more widgets. This's actually about saving lives, helping people, delivery of healthcare, finding Mr Missing Persons and POWs who are missing in action. >> I mean, the problems could be solved with technology now for goodwill, I think will outweigh the technology for Ayla's Jay Carney calls it. So right now, unfortunately, was talking about Facebook and all this nonsense that happened with the elections. I think that's pretty visible. That's painful for people to kind of deal with. But in the reality that never should have happened, I think you're going to see a resurgence of people that's going to solve problems. And if you look at the software developer persona over the past 10 to 15 years, it went from hire. Some developers build a product ship it market. It makes some money to developers being the frontlines. Power players in software companies there on the front lines. They're making changes. They're moving fast, creating value. I see that kind of paradigm hitting normal people where they can impact change like a developer would foran application in society. I think you're gonna have younger people solving all kinds of crisis around. Whether it's open opioid crisis, healthcare, these problems will be solved. I think cloud computing with a I and machine learning and the role of data will be a big catalyst. >> But money, the money, the money is the thing we're going to have Cory Quinn on later talking about this this talent gap because there are people who are, As you said, they're young people who are motivated to solve these problems, and they want to work for mission driving institutions. What better mission, then helping the United States government >> just heard in the hallway? This has been the I've heard this multiple times here. This show I just heard someone saying Yeah, but that person's great. I can't keep them. What's happening is with the talent is the people that they need for cloud computing. Khun, get a job that pays three times Mohr orm or at the private sector. So, you know, Governor doesn't have stock options, >> right? All right, all right. If >> you're, ah, machine learning, >> people call girls in the lounge. >> Eso all kinds of different diners. But I think this mission driven culture of working for society for good might be that currency. That will be the equivalent stock option that I think is something that we were watching. Not haven't seen anything yet, But maybe that will happen. >> Paid in good feelings way. We've got a lot of great guests. Wave already teed up. We've got your E. Quinn. Bill Britain from Cal Poly to talk more about ground station. We have alien Gemma Smith of YSL Itics, uh, and Jameel Jaffer. >> Think ground station. But the biggest surprise for me and the show so far has been ground station that that product has got so much traction. That's ridiculous. I thought it would be kind of cool. Spacey. I like it, but it's turning into a critical need for a I ot I mean, I was just talking with you. Came on about the airplane having WiFi on the plane. We all like Wow, we expected now, but you go back years ago is like, Oh, my God. I got WiFi on the plane. That's a ground station, like dynamic people going. Oh, my God. I can provision satellite and get data back, all for io ti anywhere in the world. So that is pretty killer. >> Excellently. I'm looking forward to digging in with you with many guests today. >> Good. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. For John. For your stay tuned, you are watching the Cube.

>> No, that makes total sense. You've got me thinking a little bit. You see some of this right now going on general fitness and these thirty six minute classes will fit thirty six is awesome there. Big group No. One, their trainers. And they do a really good job of it. But the onset of maybe not such, um, high intensity aspects that you're doing. But you're promoting motor patterns, right? So it's not like, Okay, let's train for thirty six minutes. Generally was trained for forty five minutes. Let's train for an hour. But let's have a specific program that we're picking on to develop an athlete and push him in direction. So I mean by that is, I kind of see this in this is my attempt to digest cores. Mind not break it down and bring her with me. I thought you'd like to roost e a seven day period. And then you said in this period, I want to accomplish, you know, thiss five sets off total or five sets of ten reps and back squat and then your micro dose in mind like you, you slice it up, and so all of a sudden it doesn't become a five by ten because fifty total wrapped trying to get you won't take that ten reps here and twenty wraps here and maybe five reps here, and you put it in different ways. So if you look at it holistically, it's this very on the certainly first. See, it looks almost just organized, but looks like a lot happening at once. When you take us back, you look at a full truck, the full pies there, and so people they come and see me one of your workout So they see on Instagram that, oh, it's just Korea Doing, you know, appears to be basic patterns that kind of seem random. But really, you said, Okay, this is my goal. This is what I want from these guys and you're taking a step back. You applied it in a very strategic way. So it's not just people say, Oh, it's a fitness class. No, First off, Micro does seem just That's if I like, you know, a thirty minute workout. It's a thirty minute directed work out with the candle quantifiable goal over Baghdad, a period of time. Is that a fair assessment? I dove into the brain of Cory. No, my deal >> looked like this. Lookit. Let's look at another population. We look at prisoners when they go to the yard. How much time do they have a day? All right, >> You know what, >> Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, it's not a lot like they're locked up in a cell for the whole day. So when they go to the yard, they go ham on whatever's available, it ain't like they got this nice little hole like, Okay, we're going to do from squads. And they were gonna go to bench and they were going to Arlo, and we're going to do no. They pick something that is available and they go ham on it for an hour, and they're on really terrible food and really terrible environments, but tend to get really strong. Okay, well, that makes sense. So and you know what? They do it again the next day and the next day and the next day. So I'm not saying we're trained like prisoners, But what I'm saying is there's a reason why if I was to tell any elite level lifter, OK? All you can do today for thirty minutes is squad. What do you think's gonna happen? They're going to go heavy often. And they're going to be able to be fresh the next day to do the same thing. I mean, no one leaves a power lifting meet the next day saying, Oh, time to go train again. No, their body is trashed, right? Because of all the intensity that they didn't through multiple movements. Same idea, right? All I'm doing is isolating it. So, for instance, I'm looking for a specific response. If I want to train relative string, I want to find a movement that they can move a lot of way, obviously not through a high speed. And that's the movement we're going to do. If I want a absolute velocity, for instance, Woodchuck and Tendo terms, I want them to be very elastic. Reactive owned him to move very, very fast. Then I'm gonna pick a movement, say, like a barbell squad job. Maybe it's a credible swing. Maybe it's throws and then they're going to go ham on that. But if you just take that one isolated lift, I don't care. If you do tend doubles at it, you're not going to be that sword, especially if you've been doing this for over a year. First start the preseason. We gotta look at stress holistically. The biggest stress they have is basketball. So the last thing I'm going to do is beat them down. And here I'm just going to make sure that we'Ll stay on the cart. So you look at our total volume. It looks something like four sets of four. But by the time we're at the end of the season January, February, March, we're hitting our P R's and reason why we're hit Rp. Ours is because we've made this huge reservoir of stress that they're able tto handle. So now practises cut in half. So I have more reserves in the weight room. So that force that's afore we were hitting for those compound movements in preseason. Well, now they look like ten sets of doubles or twelve sets of singles because they have that reservoir. So now we're expressing in a controlled environment faster weights have your weights at the time of year that we're looking for those adaptations so that now we're quote unquote stronger and faster. We're trying to win the championship, not tryingto win it and the summer, which you generally see like thereby sent PR is before they go home and summer. Well, that's great. And then they go into their maintenance program for the season, which last six months. Can you maintain anything for longer than six? No, you can't, like, maybe your oil, but you've not wantto patients, you know? I'm saying so. You know, that's that's where it really came down to is I'm trying to find the best means to produce performance, >> so I'm on times Lower standard. Yeah. Please do not mind around it. So I get it correct. Nowhere earthly it's looking at How do we given work out at that? Fits? The current state needed the athlete, so Okay, there begin the year, right? Their capacity only so localize outside stressors to fit in the workout around the other twenty three hours. Right? And then you're applying a stressor that's heavy enough, but not too light. And you do it. I'm not not overly fatigued them, but at least stimulate them. So you working guide rails? Not a written in stone. A type of thing, >> right? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. How Basically how I how I keep the best part of the best way to put it is what I've done this year that I haven't done in the past is abuse Tendo Units, I'm just That's my way of just monitoring. How about speed? Okay, Cool, because load is one thing. But once again, how do you move that load now? We're not We're not dicing up like, Oh, it's point seven. You're supposed to hit point five like up. You know, add thirty kilos or vice versa, right? Like you're not exact. But if you're within a range, it gives me a whole lot of details, all right? And then you're basically all we do from that point is record the wait, not the speed. I just keep them in a certain zone. Stay within this. You, for instance, our strength speed or a relative strength and strength. Speed movements can't go anything more than triples our speed, strength and are absolute velocity. You can't go anything over five reps. If you hit quote unquote those triples or those fives, then the next time you come in, guess what we get to upload if you're not above that was going to stick with the same load. And if you prove it within your early work sex, then we'LL have a little bit alert. But that's our way of day to day, keeping them on the road, if you will. >> No, that makes sense. Do I couldn't agree more. I see it carrying over so well. Universally way you looked at the origins of strength training and we're like Oh, came from Russia and even your ever pashanski for those people aren't nerds like myself. Russian sports science even started like appeared ization. It's kind of a made up thing, right? So one hundred percent made up haven't made up and it kind of came from the four years cycle of Russia itself. America takes that andan. What happens is you get the the non athlete world's intelligent public world. Everything is monetized, right? So it's like, Okay, we know that training really heavy every days and probably a good. So we're going to make these things called, you know, in small little workouts that might last twenty five minutes are our six minutes, you know, have a shrink it as Lois and possibly can. But no, let's make it not necessarily difficult, but challenging. Um and we make money office. We labeled something different and you see different fitness fads come off when I come and go. But a lot of because I got the capitalistic market monetization. People try to make money off of things. But that really does him from, like the athletic side. If you're thinking about Hey, I'm Cory. I'm dealing with Alex. I don't know how they're going to walk into my door today. I don't know if they're going to be high lower, you know, just normal. How can I then give myself the opportunity to provide environment where they can work successfully and and what you do, which is really cool, And I find it really inspiring kind of cheesy word. But you give a lot of ownership to all your athletes when it comes to selection of exercises and movements. And I find that to be something that we don't say. We as in the general world of anything sports, science and fitness don't always like to do. Um, and you say Okay, you know, credit. I'm wrong, Corey to I don't want take worth mountains, him incorrectly. Just so you know, here's a pattern and maybe select one of these three exercises that you feel like gets you ready. And what's so great about that? It removes the constraints of this exercise is the best. You know, this is the golden exercise and really, I mean you and I know it, but we want to feel good. We would always have a bench press when I came in town, but absolutely, it's like, Okay, let's let's really understand that it's not really a difference between Aback Squad versus upfront squad versus may be something of a trap, our poll, especially if you're using it to get the athlete ready. So talk. If you could talk a little bit about how you decide some of that and what led you down that path and giving those athletes that kind of ownership and understanding of you know, I want to do this versus I have to >> do this right? I mean, to me, autonomy is everything, because what you generally see and it's to me, it's almost criminal is everyone gets the piece of paper. They fill it out with me you get, then you do the same thing, right? You get that piece of paper the next day, fill it out. Get that piece of paper. Next thing, fill it out. And then four years later you go. Well, I'm leaving now. Where's my piece of paper For the rest of my life. Oh, so you didn't really learn how to train, did you? You didn't really learn what worked for you. You didn't really In the really issue is like I deal with crazy, different levers. I mean, I got guys that are five eight all the way to seven foot. So you can't tell me there's a golden exercise that it doesn't exist in my world. >> I >> like knowing you're on. I would love to have everybody do the exact same thing. They love doing it. And they all do it very, very well so that I can have my little lab and I can have my control and I can show. Hey, guys, look how much better we got this year because of my implementation. Bax Wass What? What does that say? That says that I care more about what I'm doing more than what's best for that athlete and what they're doing if you really the real reason why I got to this autonomy stage is when I realized what I do is such a small percentage of their overall success and the reason why I say that I'm not necessarily saying I agree with hit or disagree with Hit, but you could have a hit program. You could have an Olympic based program. You could have your holistic based program, whatever you want to say, and I see the hit program Win a national championship and I'm like, what happened? Like I don't agree with that program, but they won well, it's all about it's all about the dude's. So if I can give quote unquote my dudes the best training environment that works for them. So what I mean by that is Look, here's a squad. You hate doing back squats because the bar on your back, it's jerking the hell out of your shoulders because you don't like to be an external rotation will. Then maybe I'm just going to hate. How about this Bar safety squad bar that feel better? Cool court. My knees are super tender away. It's basketball. Everybody's needs at some point this season, every a super tender last thing I'm going to do is put them in an environment. Teo, flame up those tendons so that they can't perform at a higher level on the basketball court. So what are we going to do? Well, let's Hinch, how about we just do some already? L stay. How about we do some kettle bell swings? Maybe some tribe are dead. Lift. It doesn't necessarily have to be this golden exercise that everybody fits in. And I think really what it stands from is that strength coaches got approved to their sport coaches that we'll look at, our numbers go up and they have to have a control to do that. And the exact opposite. It's a sport. Coaches coming down saying one of our guys bench. Well, if our sport coaches cares so much about bench press, well, then what do you think I got to do? Well, I gotta bench my guys so we could get those numbers so I could look like, you know, I'm validated my job. Well, how about we take something that's oh, universally accepted. So how about a counter movement? Jump out force plate. Now, I'm not saying everybody has forced plates, but you could just use jump height. Friend sits. Who cares how you got there? As long as you are trending right, that's all that matters. Why should we be fixated to a certain methodology or a certain pattern or not? Pattern but exercise. Just give them a pattern, let him choose. And to be honest with you, if it feels right, it's going to fly, right? If it feels good to do attract bar squat, opposed to doing a front squat well, they're probably gonna put more load and they put more load that I'm going to get the stress response adaptation. If I don't like the front squat because it's choking me the hell out. Well, then I'm probably not going to put his much load on it. Now, I have a negative connotation now have all these internal stress is going on, and then I'm gonna have a weird as look atyou, saying I don't like what we're doing in here. So now you think the quote unquote Byeon is going to be there. So now we're not getting any stresses that are going to give me that positive adaptation I'm looking for. So at the end of the day, if I can give them the education tto, learn how to do these movements and how to choose for themselves, well, then now it's not just what they did here for four years. I just gave them skills for the rest of their life. And if they're good enough to play pros now, they can take that and they can articulate it to the next coaching stuff so they could do a better >> job. No, that's that's awesome, man like this. A lot of things I want. I head into their I'LL keep it all Diamond all nine hundred promised. But I couldn't agree more and one of things that you say, you know, let's have a king P I They said jump high, for example, a point of reference. Then let's not care what we d'Oh, to the extent I mean not care. But let's not constrain ourselves of what we dio in order to improve that k p I. So the way I think about it, it's kind of like you ever use waze before that? Yes, that we got right. It knows to things and knows where you are. It knows where you were. If you're driving, it knows where you're going. Road. And then as okay, all I care about getting to point B So it will take you on detours left and right. Little Granny is driving slow in front of you for the pothole. If whatever is going to find the best way to get there, it doesn't care how it gets there, right, Right. And so work that it's say, OK, let's get the sevens environment where we can learn. And we know we need to get to be for me. And I'm not gonna say to go in a straight line because you might go through building and crashing hit pedestrians. We're gonna find a way to get to be. We're going to find a way that makes sense for the athlete and yourself. So my teaching them, you know, let's have you like and learn to do some of these movements then don't know taking a left at this next stop light to get to point B will be quicker than you saying go straight because they're the one in the driver's seat, right? And if that educational environment where you start to look at this a really complex system, her planting a really simple abie model and apply it to something as complex as the human body so that we can learn. And the example I give. It's like, you know, the ways part like, that's the more complex and assumptions we make more room for aeri half All right, we'Ll screw this. We assume that the sumo gets here. Well, if we assume in order to get to A to B, we got a one a two a three a four, a five. But any point on the line that, you know, assumption breaks, we don't get to be all right, you guys, you stuck at a whatever and doing. You know, we have to follow this waterfall method. It's very much a living method where things come in, things come out, things make you change. But you know what? You want to go? I >> mean, it's we work in team sports. Like the only objective we are the only objective that matters is wins and losses, period. Right? So if I wasn't a stopwatch sport, maybe my mind would change a little bit, right? Maybe I got okay. We need to drift towards this because literally it's did you get faster? Did you not get faster? Right? Swimming whatever you're doing, maybe these are the things we need to do more often to make that happen. But I'm dealing with incompetent. I mean great human beings, but just physically incompetent. There's still learning about their bodies were still growing into their bodies. I think it's the most arrogance thing that a strength coach could do is to say, Here's a program that's gonna get you better for six weeks. What? What is that? Even here's a block that's going to get youto point me. How do you know Like, till you know Saddamist like, can you honestly tell me that following this six week plan is doing that? Hey, they got sport practice. They got exams, they got pick up your tell me none of those factors could potentially there off your little plan or that your little plan can go up. They're KP eyes, if you will, or their Their goal is just a play basketball. So that to me, that's where as this thing, it's like the most arrogant thing in our field and it just drives me up the wall. But the other day, like I got a sport coach who has all the faith in the world of me gives me the keys to the castle. He just tells me, Do what you think is best. I I report the numbers that he doesn't even know he needs. That's what's awesome about he's like Chord. I just trust you like these were things that I want to see my guys do. We want a quote unquote play fast. Well, okay, here's some standards that we can set And these Airways that we know we got quote unquote faster. Now, from the technical tactical aspect, that's where you guys come in and you guys got it. Apply what you think is best to make that happen, right? But I gave you the physical requirements. I told you exactly what you need to get done and how we got there. Now you guys apply the technical tactical aspect. And then there we go. Now we have a happy marriage is long as I can supply valuable information. It doesn't matter what the information ISS, and that's where everybody gets stuck on these controlled environment numbers like like looking, swatting inventions like Who cares? Like Who cares about written load? Load gets you to here right after that, it's all about It's all about speed. It's all about rhythm coordination, your vestibular system that there's so many things that go into making. You better not just, uh, put three fifteen on the back squat suite. No, >> that's you know. Yes, yes, I agree. I'm not going to deviate too far. My ma, you know how I work or my mind races and I don't go in straight lines. I apologized immediately. Good. I was thinking about your friend mentioned earlier. It was everything that this lately, too. People who've been the private sector's I work in personal training, and I worked in exercise clinic for two and a half years. Iowa State, where don't older adults randall off cool testing on them. But ultimately they showed up because they enjoy it. And one things that I think we I don't mean We have everybody some people forget is that it needs to be enjoyable back. And when you're in a private sector and you're literally your food is the ability for something to come back to you. Hey, it's really different and you start. You said Okay, you know what exercise and movement do you like, and then you manipulate How do I make that exercise the most effective exercise for that person? And that's what you kind of mentioned with the educational process for your athletes. You're taking this approach. Where? How did you get them to win? Firstly, they gotta want to be here, but they don't want to be who I try hard. And secondly, no Adam, take ownership of these movements. I really like that concept because it's really melting in the world of Hey, you're here. You have to get better. But everyone knows when you want to get better. Vs have to get better, right? The be out a little different and unusual marks Lefton excited to move. I just keep thinking about that from like the private side. That's really where, like the general public, and you could deal with great Alan to deal with a lot of athletes who really want to be there. But unfortunately, majority the world doesn't want to work out like they're they're not interested, and I hate to make an assumption, but it's hard not to think that it's either them not knowing or them intimidated that have to do something in there, right? Right. I'm like that mindset a beam to apply. Okay, let's have an ownership model that drives it, because if you talk to people, her successful personal trainers, they have a way to make sure people come back. Oh, for should join a box in a way that a strength coach you're no environment might not even have to be exposed to just because it's the nature of >> well, for me, like the off season. I mean, when I get a freshman, that's a great thing about basketball. But I get a freshman. I mean, maybe they picked up some weights like a B. There's still just such a greenhorn in the weight room. They don't know what's good and what's bad, right? So, essentially the off season is a little bit of dictatorship like Sorry, I'm to tell you what to do because you don't know shit, right? But the goal is to earn that autonomy as well. So, you know, my guys that are kind of like slaps like for the whole offseason. Well, their leashes a lot tighter like Nah, bro, you're going to do this because I know you need to do this. You have earned the right to have that a top. So I want to make sure that that's, like pretty clear, too, because if you just give autonomy all day and there's going to run over you. But the one aspect that I think that is so important with our autonomy is it's my biggest performance enhancer, and I actually had dated Approve it. Like if I just look at my C M J members from our force plates once again. Yes, there are some maybe eight sets of doubles or six sets of triples or whatever, right? But once again, that is Tendo based, like to a certain agree with most of our movement. So you know, it could be a triple. It could be a double. It could be a single. It depends on where they fall in on along those lines, but essentially the flexibility of the sets and wraps, the unbelievable latitude of the movement pattern that they're doing. But yet counter movement jumps in February. They are p r ng, not season. P R's. I'm talking life top ers Guys that have been here for three years are hidden from nineteen point one to twenty six point four. I can't say names the twenty six point four in February. So what does that say? It says that my biggest performance enhancer is the kids saying I want to do that. Cool. That's what we're going to do. >> No, I love it that zik perfect. If you want to be there, you're intense. Going to be high. You're going to try harder. You're going toe actually care about what you d'oh and that mindset really house dr an aspect of performance that otherwise we can't because all internal right korea we really started wrapping up towards the end you buy a couple questions for you before you go yourself thank you i appreciate it it's always good to have you next way clich a weekly cycle korea >> will make a >> record you know fire i slowly thanks for having you guys we wanted to come with because you're a scientist I mean, if you had to share a bitter fight and this is to anybody and this isn't their coach, Jenny, where nobody is looking to enhance their fitness, their performance, um, their overall well being You that with activity, right? How is what would you advise someone to get into and regards Tio training our house to someone Initiate That's on top of the micro dose in a kind of giving that much of credit here, obviously some e How does someone injured? I heard it put that way and I'll get straight to the point that one look into into exercise probably should do some form of micro dose in to see if you even like it everyone to overdose. How do they start that process if they're not athletes per se how they decide where they began? >> Well, essentially is what do you want to end up like, What's the what's the point beyond ways, right? Do you just want to look aesthetically better? How aesthetically do you want to look? Do you wanna look like a big body voter? Do you want to look like a swimmer? What do you want to look like? And I think that the vein than fan ity. And I mean, that's what drives my basketball players there in tank tops here around. Of course, they want nice arms. Right? So there's certain things that you gotta know. Like, I want to look like this. Now, some of the performance guys, Maybe I wantto sprint faster or jump higher. Like that's a whole another aspect. But we're talking about general population number one. What do you wanna look like? Okay, so if I'm three hundred pounds and I want to lose some body fat for my own general health and I want to, you know, be more presentable, if you will. And smaller clothing. Well, then maybe just walking ten minutes every day, and then you start adding layers to it, So Okay, You know what I mean? Killing these walks. How about we go Stairmaster? Okay, that's a little tougher. Okay, how about we introduce maybe some med ball exercises because that's not necessarily too complex to do that. I can do it through different ranges. It's easy to manipulate. Okay, Now, let's take a dumb bill or kettle bill. Then we work our way to a bar bill and now. Oh, man, what do you know? I just dropped one hundred pounds and in them. Oh, before all of that eating. But like, we're just talking about the physical aspects, but as far as that, where do you want to be? Okay, I want to look like Brad Pitt. OK, for one, get plastic surgery. But if you want to look cool air at Brad Pitt and Fight Club Okay, well, these are the things that I need to do. So let's reverse into near the process, okay? He cut his little jack, so that means he's got muscular strength. OK, cool. So that means weights are going to get involved at some point we'll he got really lean for this too. So my general fitness sucks. Maybe I just need to start with walking. Maybe a jump rope, maybe just medicine Ball toss is something that's super easy. The number one. What's going to make me more consistent? What consistency is goingto win? It's not. They'll work out you do that's going to make you go from a counter movement jumped a nineteen point one to twenty six point for It's the consistency that got you there. All right. That was a two year process for that kid. Just to get to that point, right? If you try to hijack the system, if you try to go, I want to get from point A to point Z like that. Well, you're going to run into multiple things. One possibly injury and two. What's the real reason why you're Russian? The real reason why you Russians, Because I don't want to be there in first place. Now you've just ruined the whole concept. Now you've just ruined the journey. To me, that is much more important. Like when I used to be a fake body motor, if you will, that when I try to get ready for shows. I don't remember the show at all. The only thing I remembered was those nights where I was damn hungry those mornings where I had to get up, do my quote unquote fasted cardio meal prep backs without remember only big. How I was on stage for forty five seconds like that was twelve weeks for forty five seconds. Right? So that's where you gotta understand like it's the beauty or what is it that Jake whole line of the beauty is in the is in the cash. Basically what? The thing that you want to fall in love with the most is the adversity that they were going to fall in love with the most is the stressful points. That's what's going to create the beauty, if you will remember that Jake Colon. But essentially, that Google >> search really quick pressure that the Brad Pitt Fight Club I >> mean, that dude was solid, Man, that was a solid right. May like Brad Pitt. He was a pretty boy until fight club. And I was like, Yo, that is some white trash. I would not mess with him. He can go. >> Uh, great. I love it. Lastly, Yeah. Course lesson. Where do we find you? On social media and other venues? Assault media were coming here more than beauty and wonder himself. >> Yeah. So Instagram is probably what you can find me on the most slash strength as C h L E s strength. You could find me there pretty active on it. You want to see so naked cats? So to sphinx, with my beautiful wife and ah, multiple podcast. I'm on a lot of different podcast that you just Google. I, too, are goingto iTunes type in my name. You'LL find many other platforms where I go into a lot more depth about how we train on And then, of course, speaking engagements. I do multiple speaking, engage with the nationally and internationally. And so there's opportunities to meet me in person there. >> There's beauty in the struggle. >> There is beauty in the struggle. This beauty >> I got my end. >> Yes, there is beauty in the struggle. That's when they >> get here in Britain, right? Right there. Where >> you Brooks. But there's beauty in the struggle >> A lasting well, Korea appreciate you have coming on here. I mean, I hope something useful. I >> was one hundred percent. My pleasure, Max. I love working with you, man. >> Now you do. And anybody curious about Corey? I mean, I really encourage checking out his social media. Yeah, I know. It's a lot of crazy stuff on Instagram that is really thought provoking. Put it that way and I can't believe it. Oh, my goodness. I can't let you escape Korea quite yet. >> Well, what you got? >> Uh, whole off the exit. Give me five minutes on it. I was going to ask his social media is going to ask. Yeah, way rehab itself. Yeah, to spring loaded monster man who means you want to share a little bit on this because I know you have been doing this yourself. Yeah, this is it in chorus singer based Achilles program. I love some of the actors. I love thee, not the unloaded foot contact under your hand motion who was seen Alice into this isn't the course in a chair, and he's for lack of better words. Words. MacInnis foot on the floor like a pogo stick and doing extremely extremely unloaded movements early on that site, too early on but in the rehab process itself to introduce low level plyometrics, He's doing band assisted jumps. He's doing isometrics. He's doing heavy squads. He's doing some bar bell curls. All things important for the curies. >> Sure are. Absolutely yeah beyond you. My understandings of the lower leg complex is off the charts because of my injury. So for the viewer's eye, tor macula or a ruptured my Achilles tendon with a full rupture but right at the insertion, which is the very atypical tear because I've been dealing teno sis for over a year before I tore it. So they had it cut me up top to bring me down low, if you will. So usually Achilles ruptures that all they do is bring it together and then tie it. There are. So it through the mind was at the very bottom. So essentially, they had to cut me up top toh length and me and then, uh, suitors through. So is very atypical, which sucks only that that part sucks. Spike. Um, it's not that I am Well, maybe a little bit arrogant, but I honestly want to take full control of my physical therapy because I think that intuitively I understand the process not just of rehab, but of how to increase performance. So all I did was watered down as much of that is possible and truly started as soon as I got to the pain free. And so, yeah, with all the unloaded stuff, it just made sense to me like that's something you just don't see in physical therapy to It's kind of blows. My mind is what's the first thing to go like when you get older? What happens? Will you lose your ability to do very forceful things or to lose power or the ability to generate power. So that's the first thing that came in my mind when I rupture. Or when a Torme Achilles was okay. I need to go back and not be old because essentially, I'm staying still. So if I'm staying still, it's like use it or lose it protocol. So from that perspective, I told myself, I need to move fast at some point. So I started with all my available limbs at the time, just moving fast. Then I progress toe when my suitors seal or excuse me with my I want my wound healed. I got into the pool, so that's the most is about is unloaded. You should get, and all it did was just frail. My leg and there a cz muchas I could through different planes and of course, he has fold up. But of course, it's going to like your adding a stress. And so I just did it Mohr or Mohr. And so I just Kim. Training fast, even though, is the most unloaded way you can do it. And then, like Max was talking about, I got to a seated position and I just started doing be most unloaded pogo jumps you've ever seen or ankle pops or whatever you want to call it. So then I transition to standing on it isometrics, then putting more force into the forefoot isometrics. And then I started using the bands I mean super heavy bands and then just started like Pogo's and then start lighting the bands I went to arm went the body weight. To me, it's like super common sense, but I don't know, maybe the physical world. It doesn't really look at it that way. They look at it and isolation opposed to global. So to me, I knew if I could quickly get back to global patterns that I will be able to promote healing faster. And so, like Chase talked about, his last one ought to be a far protocols. Luckily, I had him as a resource to help me with my healing process, but right now, on that four and a half months, almost five months, and I'm doing some pretty cool things if just to give you a point of reference. Dez Bryant, wide receiver. He tore his a week after mine, and essentially, you guys Essentially, he's What's a similar athletes level athlete? You know, very someone. Uh, actually, he's going to be up until eight to nine months. John Wall tour has a few months after mine. He's going to be an entire year for his process. Boog, Golden State warriors took him a whole year to get back on my goal. If I can get it back and lesson seven months, that means I did something, right? >> No, I love it. Well, that's tough stuff. Get to see if you check out his instagram page. So me, please, dear, do yourself a service. Go check out the man. He's a good dude, Tio. So sometimes no kid. Don't >> you know you're right there, e >> I don't want call corps on a bad day. >> You >> know, it's all good now. I really appreciate it, man. Thanks for being on here. And, uh, again we follow sometime in near future. I feel I'm expecting that shirt. By the way, where is my core bighead T shirt? >> You know, I want to find one of my earlier body building picks, and I'm gonna put it on a T shirts and, Tio, >> I love it. How I rocked the hell out of it. Man, >> you're beard in a most >> and be right here. Yes, right behind. Maybe my postal records slash proposing bronze and gold. You're welcome. You're welcome. An absolutely huge in that >> purple banana hammock to >> Wouldn't ask for another way. What? The full real deal. Korean stage. Ready, you know. Awesome. Well armed man up that thing. You guys, Listen, I appreciate it. Great South Korea on. If we're curious about finding more, check him out on instagram and look for Teo. No doing more. These in near future. >> Awesome. Thanks, Max.

[Music] Andre one of the things that have come up is your relation with Russia as we talked about so I have to ask you a direct question do you to work with sanctioned Russian entities or Russian companies shown we and c5 we do not work with any company that's sanctioned from any country including Russia and the same applies to me we take sanctions very very seriously the one thing you don't mess with is US sanctions which has application worldwide and so you always have to stay absolutely on the right side of the law when it comes to sanctions so nothing nothing that's something that's connection nets are trying to make they're also the other connection is a guy named Victor Vail Selberg Viktor Vekselberg Vekselberg to go with the Russian names as people know what is your relationship with Viktor Vekselberg so victim Viktor Vekselberg is a is a very well known Russian businessman he's perhaps one of the best known Russian businessman in the West because he also lived in the US for a period of time it's a very well-known personality in in in Europe he's a donor for example to the Clinton Foundation and he has aggregated the largest collection of Faberge eggs in the world as part of national Russian treasure so he's a very well known business personality and of course during the course of my career which has focused heavily on also doing investigations on Russian related issues I have come across Viktor Vekselberg and I've had the opportunity to meet with him and so I know him as a as a business leader but c5 has no relationship with Viktor Vekselberg and we've never accepted any investment from him we've never asked him for an investment and our firm a venture capital firm has no ties to Viktor Vekselberg so you've worked had a relationship at some point in your career but no I wouldn't on a daily basis you don't have a deep relationship can you explain how deep that relationship is what were the interactions you had with him so clarify that point so so I know Viktor Vekselberg and I've met him on more than one occasion in different settings and as I shared with you I served on the board of a South African mining company which is black owned for a period of a year and which Renova had a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and that's the extent of the contact and exposure I've had to so casual business run-ins and interactions not like again that's correct deep joint ventures are very kind of okay let's get back to c5 for a minute cause I want to ask you it but just do just a circle just one last issue and Viktor Vekselberg Viktor Vekselberg is the chairman of scope over the Russian technology innovation park that we discussed and he became the chairman under the presidency of President Dmitry Medvedev during the time when Hillary Clinton was doing a reset on Russian relations and during that time so vekselberg have built up very effective relationships with all of the or many of the leading big US technology companies and today you can find the roster of those partners the list of those partners on the scope of our website and those nuclear drove that yes Victor drove that Victor drove that during during in the Clinton Secretary of this started the scope of our project started during the the Medvedev presidency and in the period 2010-2011 you'll find many photographs of mr. vekselberg signing partnership agreements with very well known technology companies for Skolkovo and most of those companies still in one way or another remain involved in the Skolkovo project this has been the feature the article so there are I think and I've read all the other places where they wanted to make this decision Valley of Russia correct there's a lot of Russian programmers who work for American companies I know a few of them that do so there's technology they get great programmers in Russia but certainly they have technology so oracles they're ibm's they're cisco say we talked about earlier there is US presence there are you do you have a presence there and does Amazon Web service have a presence on do you see five it and that's knowing I was alright it's well it's a warning in the wrong oh sorry about that what's the Skog Obama's called spoke over so Andres Kokomo's this has been well report it's the Silicon Valley of Russia and so a lot of American companies they're IBM Oracle Cisco you mentioned earlier I can imagine it makes sense they a lot of recruiting little labs going on we see people hire Russian engineers all the time you know c5 have a presence there and does AWS have a presence there and do you work together in a TBS in that area explain that relationship certainly c5 Amazon individually or you can't speak for Amazon but let's see if I've have there and do you work with Amazon in any way there c-5m there's no work in Russia and neither does any of our portfolio companies c5 has no relationship with the Skolkovo Technology Park and as I said the parties for this spoke of a Technology Park is a matter of record is only website anyone can take a look at it and our name is not amongst those partners and I think this was this is an issue which I which I fault the BBC report on because if the BBC report was fair and accurate they would have disclosed the fact that there's a long list of partners with a scope of our project very well known companies many of them competitors in the Jedi process but that was not the case the BBC programme in a very misleading and deceptive way created the impression that for some reason somehow c5 was involved in Skolkovo without disclosing the fact that many other companies are involved they and of course we are not involved and your only relationship with Declan Berg Viktor Vekselberg was through the c5 raiser bid three c5 no no Viktor Vekselberg was never involved in c5 raiser Petco we had Vladimir Kuznetsov as a man not as a minority investor day and when we diligence him one of our key findings was that he was acting in independent capacity and he was investing his own money as a you national aniseh Swiss resident so you if you've had no business dealings with Viktor Vekselberg other than casual working c-5 has had no business dealings with with Viktor Vekselberg in a in a personal capacity earlier before the onset of sanctions I served on the board of a black-owned South African mining company and which Renault bombs the Vekselberg company as a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and my motivation for doing so was to support African entrepreneurship because this was one of the first black owned mining companies in the country was established with a British investment in which I was involved in and I was very supportive of the work that this company does to develop manganese mining in the Kalahari Desert and your role there was advisory formal what was the role there it was an advisory role so no ownership no ownership no equity no engagement you call them to help out on a project I was asked to support the company at the crucial time when they had a dispute on royalties when they were looking at the future of the Kalahari basin and the future of the manganese reserve say and also to help the company through a transition of the black leadership the black executive leadership of the cut year is that roughly 2017 so recently okay let on the ownership of c5 can you explain who owns c5 I mean you're described as the owner if it's a venture capital firm you probably of investors so your managing director you probably have some carry of some sort and then talk about the relationship between c5 razor bidco the Russian special purpose vehicle that was created is that owning what does it fit is it a subordinate role so see my capital so Jones to start with c5 razor boot code was was never a Russian special purpose vehicle this was a British special purpose vehicle which we established for our own investment into a European enterprise software company vladimir kuznetsov later invested as an angel investor into the same company and we required him to do it through our structure because it was transparent and subject to FCA regulation there's no ties back to c5 he's been not an owner in any way of c5 no not on c5 so C fibers owned by five families who helped to establish the business and grow the business and partner in the business these are blue chip very well known European and American families it's a small transatlantic community or family investors who believe that it's important to use private capital for the greater good right history dealing with Russians can you talk about your career you mentioned your career in South Africa earlier talk about your career deal in Russia when did you start working with Russian people I was the international stage Russian Russia's that time in 90s and 2000 and now certainly has changed a lot let's talk about your history and deal with the Russians so percent of the Soviet Union I think there was a significant window for Western investment into Russia and Western investment during this time also grew very significantly during my career as an investigator I often dealt with Russian organized crime cases and in fact I established my consulting business with a former head of the Central European division of the CIA who was an expert on Russia and probably one of the world's leading experts on Russia so to get his name William Lofgren so during the course of of building this business we helped many Western investors with problems and issues related to their investments in Russia so you were working for the West I was waiting for the West so you are the good side and but when you were absolutely and when and when you do work of this kind of course you get to know a lot of people in Russia and you make Russian contacts and like in any other country as as Alexander Solzhenitsyn the great Russian dissident wrote the line that separates good and evil doesn't run between countries it runs through the hearts of people and so in this context there are there are people in Russia who crossed my path and across my professional career who were good people who were working in a constructive way for Russia's freedom and for Russia's independence and that I continue to hold in high regard and you find there's no technical security risk the United States of America with your relationship with c5 and Russia well my my investigative work that related to Russia cases are all in the past this was all done in the past as you said I was acting in the interest of Western corporations and Western governments in their relations with Russia that's documented and you'd be prepared to be transparent about that absolutely that's all those many of those cases are well documented to corporations for which my consulting firm acted are very well known very well known businesses and it's pretty much all on the on the Podesta gaiting corruption we were we were we were helping Western corporations invest into Russia in a way that that that meant that they did not get in meshed in corruption that meant they didn't get blackmailed by Russia organized crime groups which meant that their investments were sustainable and compliant with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other bribery regulation at war for everyone who I know that lives in Europe that's my age said when the EU was established there's a flight of Eastern Europeans and Russians into Western Europe and they don't have the same business practices so I'd imagine you'd run into some pretty seedy scenarios in this course of business well in drug-dealing under I mean a lot of underground stuff was going on they're different they're different government they're different economy I mean it wasn't like a structure so you probably were exposed to a lot many many post-conflict countries suffer from predatory predatory organized crime groups and I think what changed and of course of my invested investigative career was that many of these groups became digital and a lot of organized crime that was purely based in the physical world went into the into the digital world which was one of the other major reasons which led me to focus on cyber security and to invest in cyber security well gets that in a minute well that's great I may only imagine some of the things you're investigated it's easy to connect people with things when yeah things are orbiting around them so appreciate the candid response there I wanna move on to the other area I see in the stories national security risk conflict of interest in some of the stories you seeing this well is there conflict of interest this is an IT playbook I've seen over the years federal deals well you're gonna create some Fahd fear uncertainty and doubt there's always kind of accusations you know there's accusations around well are they self dealing and you know these companies or I've seen this before so I gotta ask you they're involved with you bought a company called s DB advisors it was one of the transactions that they're in I see connecting to in my research with the DoD Sally Donnelly who is Sally Donnelly why did you buy her business so I didn't buy Sonny Donnelly's business again so Sally Tony let's start with Sally darling so Sally Donny was introduced to me by Apple Mike Mullen as a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Sally served as his special advisor when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Apple Mullen was one of the first operating parties which we had in c5 and he continues to serve Admiral Mullen the four start yes sir okay and he continues to serve as one of operating partners to this day salad only and that will Mike worked very closely with the Duke of Westminster on one of his charitable projects which we supported and which is close to my heart which is established a new veteran rehabilitation center for Britain upgrading our facility which dates back to the Second World War which is called Headley court to a brand-new state-of-the-art facility which was a half a billion dollar public-private partnership which Duke led and in this context that Ron Mullen and Sally helped the Duke and it's team to meet some of the best experts in the US on veteran rehabilitation on veteran care and on providing for veterans at the end of the service and this was a this was a great service which it did to the to this new center which is called the defense and national rehabilitation center which opened up last summer in Britain and is a terrific asset not only for Britain but also for allies and and so the acquisition she went on to work with secretary Manus in the Department of Defense yes in February Feb 9 you through the transaction yes in February 2017 Sally decided to do public service and support of safety matters when he joined the current administration when she left her firm she sold it free and clear to a group of local Washington entrepreneurs and she had to do that very quickly because the appointment of secretary mattis wasn't expected he wasn't involved in any political campaigns he was called back to come and serve his country in the nation's interest very unexpectedly and Sally and a colleague of us Tony de Martino because of their loyalty to him and the law did to the mission followed him into public service and my understanding is it's an EAJA to sell a business in a matter of a day or two to be able to be free and clear of title and to have no compliance issues while she was in government her consulting business didn't do any work for the government it was really focused on advising corporations on working with the government and on defense and national security issues I didn't buy Sonny's business one of c-5 portfolio companies a year later acquired SPD advisors from the owner supported with a view to establishing and expanding one of our cyber advising businesses into the US market and this is part of a broader bind bolt project which is called Haven ITC secure and this was just one of several acquisitions that this platform made so just for the record c5 didn't buy her company she repeat relieved herself of any kind of conflict of interest going into the public service your portfolio company acquired the company in short order because they knew the synergies because it would be were close to it so I know it's arm's length but as a venture capitalist you have no real influence other than having an investment or board seat on these companies right so they act independent in your structure absolutely make sure I get that's exactly right John but but not much more importantly only had no influence over the Jedi contract she acted as secretary mitosis chief of staff for a period of a year and have functions as described by the Government Accounting Office was really of a ministerial nature so she was much more focused on the Secretary's diary than she was focused on any contracting issues as you know government contracting is very complex it's very technical sally has as many wonderful talents and attributes but she's never claimed to be a cloud computing expert and of equal importance was when sally joined the government in february 17 jeddah wasn't even on the radar it wasn't even conceived as a possibility why did yet I cannot just for just for the record the Jedi contract my understanding is that and I'm not an expert on one government contracting but my understanding is that the RFP the request for proposals for the July contract came out in quarter three of this year for the first time earlier this year there was a publication of an intention to put out an RFP I think that happened in at the end of quarter one five yep classic yeah and then the RFP came out and called a three bits had to go in in November and I understand a decision will be made sometime next year what's your relationship well where's she now what she still was so sunny left finished the public service and and I think February March of this year and she's since gone on to do a fellowship with a think-tank she's also reestablished her own business in her own right and although we remain to be good friends I'm in no way involved in a business or a business deal I have a lot of friends in DC I'm not a really policy wonk of any kind we have a lot of friends who are it's it's common when it administrations turnover people you know or either appointed or parked a work force they leave and they go could they go to consultancy until the next yeah until the next and frustration comes along yeah and that's pretty common that's pretty cool this is what goes on yeah and I think this whole issue of potential conflicts of interest that salad only or Tony the Martino might have had has been addressed by the Government Accounting Office in its ruling which is on the public record where the GAO very clearly state that neither of these two individuals were anywhere near the team that was writing the terms for the general contract and that their functions were really as described by the GAO as ministerial so XI salient Antonia was such a long way away from this contact there's just no way that they could have influenced it in in in any respect and their relation to c5 is advisory do they and do they both are they have relations with you now what's the current relationship since since Sally and Tony went to do public service we've had no contact with them we have no reason of course to have contact with them in any way they were doing public service they were serving the country and serving the nation and since they've come out of public service we've we've not reestablished any commercial relationship so we talked earlier about the relation with AWS there's only if have a field support two incubators its accelerator does c5 have any portfolio companies that are actually bidding or working on the Jedi contract none what Santa John not zero zero so outside of c5 having relation with Amazon and no portfolios working with a Jedi contract there's no link to c5 other than a portfolio company buying Sally Donnelly who's kind of connected to general mattis up here yeah Selleck has six degrees of separation yes I think this is a constant theme in this conspiracy theory Jonas is six degrees of separation it's it's taking relationships that that that developed in a small community in Washington and trying to draw nefarious and sinister conclusions from them instead of focusing on competing on performance competing on innovation and competing on price and perhaps that's not taking place because the companies that are trying to do this do not have the capability to do so Andre I really appreciate you coming on and answering these tough questions I want to talk about what's going on with c5 now but I got to say you know I want to ask you one more time because I think this is critical you've worked for big-time company Kroll with terminus international market very crazy time time transformation wise you've worked with the CIA in Quantico the FBI nuclei in Quantico on a collaboration you were to know you've done work for the good guys you have see if I've got multiple years operating why why are you being put as a bad guy here I mean you're gonna you know being you being put out there with if you search your name on Google it says you're a spy all these evil all these things are connecting and we're kind of digging through them they kind of don't Joan I've had the privilege of a tremendous career I've had the privilege of working with with great leaders and having had great mentors if you do anything of significance if you do anything that's helping to make a difference or to make a change you should first expect scrutiny but also expect criticism when that scrutiny and criticism are fact-based that's helpful and that's good for society and for the health of society when on the other hand it is fake news or it is the construct of elaborate conspiracy theories that's not good for the health of society it's not good for the national interest is not good for for doing good business you've been very after you're doing business for the for the credibility people questioning your credibility what do you want to tell people that are watching this about your credibility that's in question again with this stuff you've done and you're continuing to do what's the one share something to the folks that might mean something to them you can sway them or you want to say something directly what would you say the measure of a person it is his or her conduct in c-five we are continuing to build our business we continue to invest in great companies we continue to put cravat private capital to work to help drive innovation including in the US market we will continue to surround ourselves with good people and we will continue to set the highest standards for the way in which we invest and build our businesses it's common I guess I would say that I'm getting out as deep as you are in the in term over the years with looking at these patterns but the pattern that I see is very simple when bad guys get found out they leave the jurisdiction they flee they go do something else and they reinvent themselves and scam someone else you've been doing this for many many years got a great back record c5 now is still doing business continuing not skipping a beat the story comes out hopefully kind of derail this or something else will think we're gonna dig into it so than angle for sure but you still have investments you're deploying globally talk about what c5 is doing today tomorrow next few months the next year you have deals going down you're still doing business you have business out there our business has not slowed down for a moment we have the support of tremendous investors we have the support of tremendous partners in our portfolio companies we have the support of a great group of operating partners and most important of all we have a highly dedicated highly focused group of investment teams of very experienced and skilled professionals who are making profitable investments and so we are continuing to build our business we have a very full deal pipeline we will be completing more investment transactions next week and we are continue to scalar assets under management next year we will have half a billion dollars of assets under management and we continue to focus on our mission which is to use private capital to help innovate and drive a change for good after again thank you we have the story in the BBC kicked all this off the 12th no one's else picked it up I think other journals have you mentioned earlier you think this there's actually people putting this out you you call out let's got John wheeler we're going to look into him do you think there's an organized campaign right now organized to go after you go after Amazon are you just collateral damage you mentioned that earlier is there a funded effort here well Bloomberg has reported on the fact that that one of the competitors for this bit of trying to bring together a group of companies behind a concerted effort specifically to block Amazon Web Services and so we hear these reports we see this press speculation if that was the case of course that would not be good for a fair and open and competitive bidding process which is I think is the Department of Defense's intention and what is in the interests of the country at a time when national security innovation will determine not only the fate of future Wars but also the fate of a sons and daughters who are war fighters and to be fair to process having something undermine it like a paid-for dossier which I have multiple sources confirming that's happened it's kind of infiltrating the journalists and so that's kind of where I'm looking at right now is that okay the BBC story just didn't feel right to me credible outlet you work for them you did investigations for them back in the day have you talked to them yes no we are we are we are in correspondence with the BBC I think in particular we want them to address the fact that they've conflated facts in this story playing this parlor game of six degrees of separation we want them to address the important principle of the independence of the in editorial integrity at the fact that they did not disclose that they expert on this program actually has significant conflicts of interests of his own and finally we want them to disclose the fact that it's not c5 and Amazon Web Services who have had a relationship with the scope of our technology park the scope of our technology park actually has a very broad set of Western partners still highly engaged there and even in recent weeks of hosted major cloud contracts and conferences there and and all of this should have been part of the story in on the record well we're certainly going to dig into it I appreciate your answer the tough questions we're gonna certainly look into this dossier if this is true this is bad and if there's people behind it acting behind it then certainly we're gonna report on that and I know these were tough questions thanks for taking the time Andre to to answer them with us Joan thanks for doing a deep dive on us okay this is the Q exclusive conversation here in Palo Alto authority narc who's the founder of c-5 capital venture capital firm in the center of a controversy around this BBC story which we're going to dig into more this has been exclusive conversation I'm John Tory thanks for watching [Music] you

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment