>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE and we're here with two Google folks. JD Velazquez who's the Product Manager for Stackdriver, got some news on that we're going to cover, and David Aronchick, who's the co-founder of Kubeflow, also with Google, news here on that. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. >> Thank you very much. >> So we're going to have Google Next coming out, theCUBE will be there this summer, looking forward to digging in to all the enterprise traction you guys have, and we had some good briefings at Google. Ton of movement on the Cloud for Google, so congratulations. >> JD: Thank you. >> Open source is not new to Google. This is a big show for you guys. What's the focus, you've got some news on Stackdriver, and Kubeflow. Kubeflow, not Cube flow, that's our flow. (laughing) David, share some of the news and then we'll get into Stackdriver. >> Absolutely, so Kubeflow is a brand new project. We launched it in December, and it is basically how to make machine learning stacks easy to use and deploy and maintain on Kubernetes. So we're not launching anything new. We support TensorFlow and PyTorch, Caffe, all the tools that you're familiar with today. But we use all the native APIs and constructs that Kubernetes rides to make it very easy and to let data scientists and researchers focus on what they do great, and let the I.T. Ops people deploy and manage these stacks. >> So simplifying the interactions and cross-functionality of the apps. Using Kubernetes. >> Exactly, when you go and talk to any researcher out there or data scientist, what you'll find is that while the model, TensorFlow, or Pytorch or whatever, that gets a little bit of the attention. 95% of the time is spent in all the other elements of the pipeline. Transforming your data, ingesting it, experimenting, visualizing. And then rolling it out toward production. What we want to do with Kubeflow is give everyone a standard way to interact with those, to interact with all those components. And give them a great workflow for doing so. >> That's great, and the Stackdriver news, what's the news we got going on? >> We're excited, we just announced the beta release of Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, which provides very rich and comprehensive observability for Kubernetes. So this is essentially simplifying operations for developers and operators. It's a very cool solution, it integrates many signals across the Kubernetes environment, including metrics, logs, events, as well as metadata. So what it allows is for you to really inspect your Kubernetes environment, regardless of the role, and regardless of where your deployment is running it. >> David is bringing up just the use cases. I just, my mind is exploding, 'cause you think about what Tensorflow is to a developer, and all the goodness that's going on with the app layer. The monitoring and the instrumentation is a critical piece, because Kubernetes is going to bring the people what is thousands and thousands of new services. So, how do you instrument that? I mean, you got to know, I want to provision this service dynamically, that didn't exist. How do you measure that, I mean this is, is this the challenge you guys are trying to figure out here? >> Yeah, for sure John. The great thing here is that we, and at Google primarily, many of our ancillary practices go beyond monitoring. It really is about observability, which I would describe more as a property of a system. How do you, are able to collect all these many signals to help you diagnose the production failure, and to get information about usage and so forth. So we do all of that for you in your Kubernetes environment, right. We take that toil away from the developer or the operator. Now, a cool thing is that you can also instrument your application in open source. You can use Prometheus, and we have an integration for that, so anything you've done in a Prometheus instrumentation, now you can bring into the cloud as needed. >> Tell about this notion, everyone gets that, oh my God, Google's huge. You guys are very open, you're integrating well. Talk about the guiding principles you guys have when you think about Prometheus as an example. Integrating in with these other projects. How are you guys treating these other projects? What's the standard practice? API Base? Is there integration plans? How do you guys address that question? >> Yeah, at a high level I would say, at Google, we really believe in contributing and helping grow open communities. I think that the best way to maintain a community open and portable is to help it grow. And Prometheus particularly, and Kubernetes of course, is a very vibrant community in that sense. So we are, from the start, designing our systems to be able to have integration, via APIs and so on, but also contributing directly to the projects. >> And I think that one thing that's just leveraging off that exact point, y'know, we realize what the world looks like. There's literally zero customers out there, like, "Well, I want be all in on one cloud. "Y'know, that 25 million dollar data center "I spent last year building. "Yeah, I'll toss that out so that I can get, "y'know, some special thing." The reality is, people are multi-cloud. And the only way to solve any problem is with these very open standards that work wherever people are. And that's very much core to our philosophy. >> Well, I mean, I've been critical of multi-cloud, by the definition. Statistically, if I'm on Azure, with 365, that's Azure. If I'm running something on Amazon, those are two clouds, they're not multi-cloud, by my definition. Which brings up where this is going, which is latency and portability, which you guys are really behind. How are you guys looking at that, because you mentioned observation. Let's talk about the observation space of clouds. How are you guys looking at, 'cause that's what people are talking about. When are we going to get to the future state, which is, I need to have workload portability, in real time, if I want to move something from Azure to AWS or Google Cloud, that would be cool. Can't do that today. >> That is actually the core of what we did around Kubeflow. What we are able to do is describe in code all the layers of your pipeline, all the steps of your pipeline. That works based on any conformant Kubernetes cluster. So, you have a Kubernetes conformant cluster on Azure, or on AWS, or on Google Cloud, or on your laptop, or in your private data center, that's great. And to be clear, I totally agree. I don't think that having single workloads spread across cloud, that's not just unrealistic, because of all the things you identified. Latency, variability, unknown failures, y'know. Cap theorem is a thing because, y'know, it's well-known. But what people want to do is, they want to take advantage of different clouds for the efforts that they provide. Maybe my data is here, maybe I have a legal reason, maybe this particular cloud has a unique chip, or unique service-- >> Use cases can drive it. >> Exactly, and then I can take my workload, which has been described in code and deploy it to that place where it makes sense. Keeping it within a single cloud, but as an organization I'll use multiple clouds together. >> Yeah, I agree, and the data's key, because if you can have data moving between clouds, I think that's something I would like to see, because that's going to be, because the metadata you mentioned is a real critical piece of all these apps. Whether it's instrumentation logging, and/or, y'know, provisioning new services. >> Yeah, and as soon as you have, as David is mentioning, if you have deployments on, y'know, with public or private clouds, then the difficult part is that of severability, that we were talking before. Because now you're trying to stitch together data, and tools to help you get that diagnosed, or get signals when you need them. This is what we're doing with Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, precisely. >> Y'know, we're early days in the cloud. It stills feels like we're 10 years in, but, y'know, a lot of people are now coming to realize cloud native, so. Y'know, I'm not a big fan of the whole, y'know, Amazon, although they do say Amazon's winning, they are doing quite well with the cloud, 'cause they're a cloud. It's early days, and you guys are doing some really specific good things with the cloud, but you don't have the breadth of services, say, Amazon has. And you guys are above board about that. You're like, "Hey, we're not trying to meet them "speed for speed on services." But you do certain things really, really well. You mentioned SRE. Site Reliability Engineers. This is a scale best practice that you guys have bringing to the table. But yet the customers are learning about Kubernetes. Some people who have never heard of it before say, "Hey, what's this Kubernetes thing?" >> Right. >> What is your perspectives on the relevance of Kubernetes at this point in history? Because it really feels like a critical mass, de facto, standard movement where everyone's getting behind Kubernetes, for all the right reasons. It feels a lot like interoperability is here. Thoughts on Kubernetes' relevance. >> Well I think that Alexis Richardson summed it up great today, the chairperson of the technical oversight committee. The reality is that what we're looking for, what operators and software engineers have been looking for forever, is clean lines between the various concerns. So as you think about the underlying infrastructure, and then you think about the applications that run on top of that, potentially services that run on top of that, then you think about applications, then you think about how that shows up to end users. Before, if you're old like me, you remember that you buy a $50,000 machine and stick it in the corner, and you'd stack everything on there, right? That never works, right? The power supply goes out, the memory goes out, this particular database goes out. Failure will happen. The only way to actually build a system that is reliable, that can meet your business needs, is by adopting something more cloud native, where if any particular component fails, your system can recover. If you have business requirements that change, you can move very quickly and adapt. Kubernetes provides a rich, portable, common set of APIs, that do work everywhere. And as a result, you're starting to see a lot of adoption, because it gives people that opportunity. But I think, y'know and let me hand off to JD here, y'know, the next layer up is about observability. Because without observing what's going on in each of those stacks, you're not going to have any kind of-- >> Well, programmability comes behind it, to your point. Talk about that, that's a huge point. >> Yeah, and just to build on what David is saying, one thing that is unique about Google is that we've been doing for more than a decade now, we've been very good at being able to provide innovative services without compromising reliability. Right, and so what we're doing is in that commitment, and you see that with Kubernetes and Istio, we're externalizing many of our, y'know, opinionated infrastructure, and platforms in that sense, but it's not just the platforms. You need those methodologies and best practices. And now the toolset. So that's what we're doing now, precisely. >> And you guys have made great strides, just to kind of point out to the folks watching, in the enterprise, I know you've got a lot more work to do but you're pedaling as fast as you can. I want to ask you specifically around this, because again, we're still early days with the cloud, if you think about it, there are now table stakes that are on the table that you got to get done. Check boxes if you will. Certainly on the government side there's like, compliance issues, and you guys are now checking those boxes. What is the key thing, 'cause you guys are operating at a scale that enterprises can't even fathom. I mean, millions of services, on and on up a huge scale. That's going to be helpful for them down the road, no doubt about it. But today, what is the Google table stakes that are done, and what are enterprises need to have for table stakes to do cloud native right, from your perspective? >> Well, I think more than anything, y'know, I agree with you. The reality is all the hyperscale cloud providers have the same table stakes, all the check boxes are checked, we're ready to go. I think what will really differentiate and move the ball forward for so many people is this adoption of cloud native. And really, how cloud native is your cloud, right? How much do you need to spin up an entire SRE team like Netflix in order to operate in the Netflix model of, y'know, complete automation and building your own services and things like that. Does your cloud help you get cloud native? And I think that's where we really want to lean in. It's not about IAS anymore, it's about does your cloud support the reliability, support the distribution, all the various services, in order to help you move even faster and achieve higher velocity. >> And standing up that is critical, because now these applications are the business model of companies, when you talk about digital. So I tweeted, I want to get your reaction to this, yesterday I got a quote I overheard from a person here in the hallways. "I need to get away from VPNs and firewalls. "I need user application layer security "with unphishable access, otherwise I'm never safe." Again this talks about the perimeterless cloud, spearphishing is really hot right now, people are getting killed with security concerns. So, I'm going to stop if I'm enterprise, I'm going to say, "Hold on, I'm not going," Y'know, I'm going to proceed with caution. What are you guys doing to take away the fear, and also the reality that as you provision all these, stand up all this infrastructure, services for customers, what are you guys doing to prevent phishing attacks from happening, security concerns, what's the Google story? >> So I think that more than anything, what we're trying to do is exactly what JD just said, which is externalize all the practices that we have. So, for example, at Google we have all sorts of internal tools that we've used, and internal practices. For example, we just published a whitepaper about our security practices where you need to have two vulnerabilities in order to break out of any system. We have all that written up there. We just published a whitepaper about encryption and how to do encryption by default, encryption between machines and so on. But I think what we're really doing is, we're helping people to operate like Google without having to spin up an entire SRE team as big as Google's to do it. An example is, we just released something internally, we have something called BeyondCorp. It's a non-firewall, non-VPN based way for you to authenticate against any Google system, using two-factor authentication, for our internal employees. Externally, we just released it, it's called, Internet, excuse me, IdentityAware proxy. You can use with literally any service that you have. You can provision a domain name, you can integrate with OAuth, you can, including Google OAuth or your own private OAuth. All those various things. That's simply a service that we offer, and so, really, y'know, I think-- >> And there's also multi, more than two-factor coming down the road, right? >> Exactly, actually IdentityAware proxy already supports two-factor. But I will say, one of the things that I always tell people, is a lot of enterprises say exactly what you said. "Jeez, this new world looks very scary to me. "I'm going to slow down." The problem is they're mistaken, under the mistaken impression that they're secure today. More than likely, they're not. They already have firewall, they already have VPN, and it's not great. In many ways, the enterprises that are going to win are the ones that lean in and move faster to the new world. >> Well, they have to, otherwise they're going to die, with IOT and all these benefits, they're exposed even as they are, just operationally. >> Yep. >> Just to support it. Okay, I want to get your thoughts, guys, on Google's role here at the Linux Foundation's CNCF KubeCon event. You guys do a lot of work in open source. You've got a lot of great fan base. I'm a fan of what you guys do, love the tech Google brings to the table. How do people get involved, what are you guys connecting with here, what's going on at the show, and how does someone get on board with the Google train? Certainly TensorFlow has been, it's like, great open source goodness, developers are loving it, what's going on? >> Well we have over almost 200 people from Google here at the show, helping and connecting with people, we have a Google booth which I invite people to stop by and tell about the different project we have. >> Yeah, and exactly like you said, we have an entire repo on Github. Anyone can jump in, all our things are open source and available for everyone to use no matter where they are. Obviously I've been on Kubernetes for a while. The Kubernetes project is on fire, Tensorflow is on fire, KubeFlow that we mentioned earlier is completely open source, we're integrating with Prometheus, which is a CNCF project. We are huge fans of these open source foundations and we think that's the direction that most software projects are going to go. >> Well congratulations, I know you guys invested a lot. I just want to highlight that. Again, to show my age, y'know these younger generation have no idea how hard open source was in the early days. I call it open bar and open source, you guys are bringing so much, y'know, everyone's drunk on all this goodness. Y'know, just these libraries you guys bringing to the table. >> David: Right. >> I mean Tensorflow is just the classic poster-child example. I mean, you're bringing a lot of stuff to the table. I mean, you invented Kubernetes. So much good stuff coming in. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I hesitate to say we invented it. It really was a community effort, but yeah, absolutely-- >> But you opened it up, and you did it right, and did a good job. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, I'm going to see you at Google Next. theCUBE will be broadcasting live at Google Next in July. Of course we'll do a big drill-down on Google Cloud platform at that show. It's theCUBE here at KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. More live coverage after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hi, this is Dave Volante, and we're getting ready to bring the Cube to Dell Tech World 2022. This is the first Dell Tech World that will be held in person since 2019. And, it's the first major Dell customer and industry gathering since Dell spun out VMware, as a completely separate company. Without Dell ownership, of course the chairman remains the same. Now, that Dell is untethered from VMware, it means its most lucrative asset is no longer going to show up on the income statement. Now, with the client business as an increasingly large share of revenue for Dell, over the past couple of years, thanks to the pandemic, Dell's gross margin line stands out more going from the low 30s to around 20%. Now, as part of the spin, Dell executed a special commercial agreement with VMware. Dell is VMware's number one distribution channel and sells tons of VMware software. So, that combined with the fact that Michael Dell is leading both companies was plenty of incentive for VMware to make disagreement. The special commercial agreement sets certain terms and conditions regarding how the two companies will work together to maximize technical integrations, co-marketing initiatives, and other go to market opportunities. This was done to ensure that the relationship between the two companies remains as strong as it was prior to the spin. It's interesting, a lot of people complained about the acquisition, that Dell and VMware shouldn't be together but customers, by all accounts, loved it. The other major change is Dell... For, with Dell post spin, is it now is a much stronger balance sheet. It has paid down a ton of debt to where it's now considered investment grade by the ratings bureaus. This means lower interest rates for Dell on its debt. And, it also means Dell has more flexibility to do dividends and stock buybacks and MNA. Dell, in our view, will begin to do some more of these tuck in acquisitions and beef up its software portfolio, As it still relies heavily on VMware software for much of its data center business, but we think it needs to diversify. It's increasingly going to look to expand into cloud offerings with its apex as a service. And, apex really is this as of surface offer, which is essentially Dell's version of their cloud and it spans on premises, the public cloud, and ultimately out to the edge. So, at Dell Tech World, expect the following areas to be emphasized client solutions. It's around half of the company's revenue. So, laptops and desktops and client side solutions have to be part of the discussion. It's a lower margin business than enterprise, but with COVID been growing quite rapidly as remote work has become the thing. The other thing we expect to hear, the other theme, is around ransomware, cyber resiliency, cyber threats are top of mind. Expect Dell to stress the importance of having sound security and data protection strategies in the post COVID era. You may see some specific offerings from Dell or perhaps even further emphasizing security in many of its products or both. Okay, we would also expect more storage innovation. Dell's legacy EMC storage business has been under pressure from the cloud and other competitors like Pure and some new entrants, nipping at Dell's heels. We would expect Dell to beef up its as a service offering both on prem within systems, AKA boxes, and as part of apex. Now, apex is going to be a big theme at the show. The as a service is going to absolutely be a big focus in our view. Dell has entered the market after HPE came in with GreenLake and Dell doesn't want to be overshadowed by HPE's all in as a service strategy. So, expect Dell to provide updates on its progress with apex, identify differentiation from some of the other players, AKA HP, and announce new services across its portfolio. You'll likely also hear some discussion about the ecosystem and partnerships with some global system integrators and also of some announcements about how they plan to appeal to the developer community. I think multi cloud is another theme that you're going to hear. Sometimes we call it super cloud. We would expect Dell to emphasize the importance of its ability to serve customers irrespective of physical location, right? Cloud is not a destination. It's an operating model kind of thing. On-prem, public cloud, across clouds, at the edge. Some of this is going to be vision, a lot of it of course will be vision, but some of it's going to be offerings. Might see some things in Telco and hear some 5g talk, as well as some Edge and Telco partnerships to attack that 5g opportunity and other opportunities at the edge. Dell's a large company. They, I think very conscious of responsibility. So, you're going to hear, I would say some, maybe not tons, but some fair dose of ESG, environmental, social, and governance. This will likely be a theme as companies like Dell, they got to demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion, as well as the sustainability of the environment. They can move the needle. They may likely also get into privacy, things like that. Maybe tech for good, or maybe talk a little bit about AI for good, maybe even AI solutions, although let's, we'll see, we'll report if we hear that. You're going to also hear about digital transformation like any conference and how Dell is helping customers transform their businesses. What maybe what Dell's doing internally with its own technology organization and its own digital transformation. Dell's role is to provide technologies and services that can accelerate those digital transformations. So, you'll hear Dell position itself there we think. And, finally channel partnerships and ecosystems as Dell transforms to a cloud company, that's going to redefine cloud. It has to, in our view, increasingly emphasize its ecosystem partnerships which are a critical component of cloud companies. Now, I hope as a company building out its own cloud vision, and trying to reset the cloud narrative, that we hear some focused discussion around developers. I mentioned that before, and how infrastructure's code is a key aspect of Dell's vision and offerings. Now, the Cube will be there. We start Monday evening. It'll be late east coast time, but it'll be 6, 6:30 west coast time. We're going to feature myself, John Farrier, Lisa Martin, and David Nicholson as host. Monday is largely focused on partners. And, then we go all day, wall to wall, on Tuesday and Wednesday with our typical Cube coverage. Several key execs are going to be joining us including, of course, Michael Dell and Chuck Whitten, who's the new co-chief operating officer, along with Jeff Clark, who is also vice chairman. He's going to be joining us and several others from Dell's ELT, including Cheryl Cook, JD Davis, Alison Dew, and a number of Dell customers, partners, and several members from the product teams coming on to talk about the new announcements that they're making at the show. And, of course, you'll get the Cube's take on all the keynotes, the product announcements, and the vibe at the show and what's happening in the hallways and in the evening events. So, tune into the cube.net, check out siliconangle.com for all the news and coverage. And, we'll see you there. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube in ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> On Friday, December 10th, Oracle announced a strong earnings beat and raise, on the strength of its licensed business, and slightly better than expected cloud performance. The stock was up sharply on the day and closed up nearly 16% surpassing 280 billion in market value. Oracle's success is due largely to its execution, of a highly differentiated strategy, that has really evolved over the past decade or more, deeply integrating its hardware and software, heavily investing in next generation cloud, creating a homogeneous experience across its application portfolio, and becoming the number one platform. Number one for the world's most mission critical applications. Now, while investors piled into the stock, skeptics will point to the beat being weighed toward licensed revenue and likely keep one finger on the sell button until they're convinced Oracle's cloud momentum, is more consistent and predictable. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibond CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll review Oracle's most recent quarter, and pull in some ETR survey data, to frame the company's cloud business, the momentum of fusion ERP, where the company is winning and some gaps and opportunities that we see. The numbers this quarter was strong, particularly top line growth. Here are a few highlights. Oracle's revenues that grew 6% year on year that's in constant currency, surpassed $10 billion for the quarter. Oracle's non-gap operating margins, were an impressive 47%. Safra Catz has always said cloud is more profitable business and it's really starting to show in the income statement. Operating cash and free cash flow were 10.3 billion and 7.1 billion respectively, for the past four quarters, and would have been higher, if not for charges largely related to litigation expenses tied to the hiring of Mark Hurd, which the company said would not repeat in the future quarters. And you can see in this chart how Oracle breaks down its business, which is kind of a mishmash of items they lump into so-called the cloud. The largest piece of the revenue pie is cloud services, and licensed support, which in reading 10Ks, you'll find statements like the following; licensed support revenues are our largest revenue stream and include product upgrades, and maintenance releases and patches, as well as technical support assistance and statements like the following; cloud and licensed revenue, include the sale of cloud services, cloud licenses and on-premises licenses, which typically represent perpetual software licenses purchased by customers, for use in both cloud, and on-premises, IT environments. And cloud license and on-prem license revenues primarily represent amounts earned from granting customers perpetual licenses to use our database middleware application in industry specific products, which our customers use for cloud-based, on-premise and other IT environments. So you tell me, "is that cloud? I don't know." In the early days of Oracle cloud, the company used to break out, IaaS, PaaS and SaaS revenue separately, but it changed its mind, which really makes it difficult to determine what's happening in true cloud. Look I have no problem including same same hardware software control plane, et cetera. The hybrid if it's on-prem in a true hybrid environment like exadata cloud@customer or AWS outposts. But you have to question what's really cloud in these numbers. And Larry in the earnings call mentioned that Salesforce licenses the Oracle database, to run its cloud and Oracle doesn't count that in its cloud number, rather it counts it in license revenue, but as you can see it varies that into a line item that starts with the word cloud. So I guess I would say that Oracle's reporting is maybe somewhat better than IBM's cloud reporting, which is the worst, but I can't really say what is and isn't cloud, in these numbers. Nonetheless, Oracle is getting it done for investors. Here's a chart comparing the five-year performance of Oracle to some of its legacy peers. We excluded Microsoft because it skews the numbers. Microsoft would really crush all these names including Oracle. But look at Oracle. It's wedged in between the performance of the NASDAQ and the S&P 500, it's up over 160% in that five-year timeframe, well ahead of SAP which is up 59% in that time, and way ahead of the dismal -22% performance of IBM. Well, it's a shame. The tech tide is rising, it's lifting all boats but, IBM has unfortunately not been able to capitalize. That's a story for another day. As a market watcher, you can't help but love Larry Ellison. I only met him once at an IDC conference in Paris where I got to interview Scott McNealy, CEO at the time. Ellison is great for analysts because, he's not afraid to talk about the competition. He'll brag, he'll insult, he'll explain, and he'll pitch his stories. Now on the earnings call last night, he went off. Educating the analyst community, on the upside in the fusion ERP business, making the case that because only a thousand of the 7,500 legacy on-prem ERP customers from Oracle, JD Edwards and PeopleSoft have moved Oracle's fusion cloud ERP, and he predicted that Oracle's cloud ERP business will surpass 20 billion in five years. In fact, he said it's going to bigger than that. He slammed the hybrid cloud washing. You can see one of the quotes here in this chart, that's going on when companies have customers running in the cloud and they claim whatever they have on premise hybrid, he called that ridiculous. I would agree. And then he took an opportunity to slam the hyperscale cloud vendors, citing a telco customer that said Oracle's cloud never goes down, and of course, he chose the same week, that AWS had a major outage. And so to these points, I would say that Oracle really was the first tech company, to announce a true hybrid cloud strategy, where you have an entirely identical experience on prem and in the cloud. This was announced with cloud@customer, two years, before AWS announced outposts. Now it probably took Oracle two years to get it working as advertised, but they were first. And to the second point, this is where Oracle differentiates itself. Oracle is number one for mission critical applications. No other vendor really can come close to Oracle in this regard. And I would say that Oracle is recent quarterly performance to a large extent, is due to this differentiated approach. Over the past 10 years, we've talked to hundreds literally. Hundreds and hundreds of Oracle customers. And while they may not always like the tactics and licensing policies of Oracle in their contracting, they will tell you, that business case for investing and staying with Oracle are very strong. And yes, a big part of that is lock-in but R&D investments innovation and a keen sense of market direction, are just as important to these customers. When you're chairman and founder is a technologist and also the CTO, and has the cash on hand to invest, the results are a highly competitive story. Now that's not to say Oracle is not without its challenges. That's not to say Oracle is without its challenges. Those who follow this program know that when it comes to ETR survey data, the story is not always pretty for Oracle. So let's take a look. This chart shows the breakdown of ETR is net score methodology, Net score measures spending momentum and works ETR. Each quarter asks customers, are you adding in the platform, That's the lime green. Increasing spend by 6% or more, that's the fourth green. Is you're spending E+ or minus 5%, that's the gray. You're spending climbing by 6%, that's the pinkish. Or are you leaving the platform, that's the bright red retiring. You subtract the reds from the greens, and that yields a net score, which an Oracle's overall case, is an uninspiring -4%. This is one of the anomalies in the ETR dataset. The net score doesn't track absolute actual levels, of spending the dollars. Remember, as the leader in mission critical workloads, Oracle commands a premium price. And so what happens here is the gray, is still spending a large amount of money, enough to offset the declines, and the greens are spending more than they would on other platforms because Oracle could command higher prices. And so that's how Oracle is able to grow its overall revenue by 6% for example, whereas the ETR methodology, doesn't capture that trend. So you have to dig into the data a bit deeper. We're not going to go too deep today, but let's take a look at how some of Oracle's businesses are performing relative to its competitors. This is a popular view that we like to share. It shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis, and market share. Market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the survey. Think of it as mentioned share. That's on the x-axis. And we've broken down and circled Oracle overall, Oracle on prem, which is declining on the vertical axis, Oracle fusion and NetSuite, which are much higher than Oracle overall. And in the case of fusion, much closer to that 40% magic red horizontal line, remember anything above that line, we consider to be elevated. Now we've added SAP overall which has, momentum comparable to fusion in the survey, using this methodology and IBM, which is in between fusion and Oracle, overall on the y-axis. Oracle as you can see on the horizontal axis, has a larger presence than any of these firms that are below the 40% line. Now, above that 40% line, you see companies with a smaller presence in the survey like Workday, salesforce.com, pretty big presence still, Google cloud also, and Snowflake. Smaller presence but much much higher net score than anybody else on this chart. And AWS and Microsoft overall with both a strong presence, and impressive momentum, especially for their respective sizes. Now that view that we just showed you excluded on purpose Oracle specific cloud offering. So let's now take a look at that relative to other cloud providers. This chart shows the same XY view, but it cuts the data by cloud only. And you can see Oracle while still well below the 40% line, has a net score of +15 compared to a -4 overall that we showed you earlier. So here we see two key points. One, despite the convoluted reporting that we talked about earlier, the ETR data supports that Oracle's cloud business has significantly more momentum than Oracle's overall average momentum. And two, while Oracle is smaller and doesn't have the growth of the hyperscale giants, it's cloud is performing noticeably better than IBM's within the ETR survey data. Now a key point Ellison emphasized on the earnings call, was the importance of ERP, and the work that Oracle has done in this space. It lives by this notion of a cloud first mentality. It builds stuff for the cloud and then, would bring it on-prem. And it's been attracting new customers according to the company. He said Oracle has 8,500 fusion ERP customers, and 28,000 NetSuite customers in the cloud. And unlike Microsoft, it hasn't migrated its on-prem install base, to the cloud yet. Meaning these are largely new customers. Now this chart isolates fusion and NetSuite, within a sector ETR calls GPP. The very giant, public and private companies. And this is a bellwether of spending in the ETR dataset. They've gone back and it correlates to performance. So think large public companies, the biggest ones, and also privates big privates like Mars or Cargo or Fidelity. The chart shows the net score breakdown over time for fusion and NetSuite going back to 2019. And you can see, a big uptick as shown in the blue line from the October, 2020 survey. So Oracle has done a good job building and now marketing its cloud ERP to these important customers. Now, the last thing we want to show you is Oracle's performance within industry sectors. On the earnings call, Oracle said that it had a very strong momentum for fusion in financial services and healthcare. And this chart shows the net score for fusion, across each industry sector that ETR tracks, for three survey points. October, 2020, that's the gray bars, July 21, that's the blue bars and October, 2021, the yellow bars. So look it confirms Oracles assertions across the board that they're seeing fusion perform very well including the two verticals that are called out healthcare and banking slash financial services. Now the big question is where does Oracle go from here? Oracle has had a history of looking like it's going to break out, only to hit some bumps in the road. And so investors are likely going to remain a bit cautious and take profits off the table along the way. But since the Barron's article came out, we reported on that earlier this year in February, declaring Oracle a cloud giant, the stock is up more than 50% of course. 16 of those points were from Friday's move upward, but still, Oracle's highly differentiated strategy of integrating hardware and software together, investing in a modern cloud platform and selectively offering services that cater to the hardcore mission critical buyer, these have served the company, its customers and investors as well. From a cloud standpoint, we'd like to see Oracle be more inclusive, and aggressively expand its marketplace and its ecosystem. This would provide both greater optionality for customers, and further establish Oracle as a major cloud player. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of both AWS and Azure is the momentum being created, by their respective ecosystems. As well, we'd like to see more clear confirmation that Oracle's performance is being driven by its investments in technology IE cloud, same same hybrid, and industry features these modern investments, versus a legacy licensed cycles. We are generally encouraged and are reminded, of years ago when Sam Palmisano, he was retiring and leaving as the CEO of IBM. At the time, HP under the direction ironically of Mark Hurd, was the now company, Palmisano was asked, "do you worry about HP?" And he said in fact, "I don't worry about HP. I worry about Oracle because Oracle invests in R&D." And that statement has proven present. What do you think? Has Oracle hit the next inflection point? Let me know. Don't forget these episodes they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, all you do is search it. Breaking Analysis podcast, check out ETR website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconANGLE.com. You can get in touch with me on email David.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me @dvellante on Twitter or, comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights. Powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody. Stay safe, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante aws is pointing the way to a revolution in system architecture much in the same way that aws defined the cloud operating model last decade we believe it is once again leading in future systems design the secret sauce underpinning these innovations is specialized designs that break the stranglehold of inefficient and bloated centralized processing and allows aws to accommodate a diversity of workloads that span cloud data center as well as the near and far edge hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll dig into the moves that aws has been making which we believe define the future of computing we'll also project what this means for customers partners and aws many competitors now let's take a look at aws's architectural journey the is revolution it started by giving easy access as we all know to virtual machines that could be deployed and decommissioned on demand amazon at the time used a highly customized version of zen that allowed multiple vms to run on one physical machine the hypervisor functions were controlled by x86 now according to werner vogels as much as 30 of the processing was wasted meaning it was supporting hypervisor functions and managing other parts of the system including the storage and networking these overheads led to aws developing custom asics that help to accelerate workloads now in 2013 aws began shipping custom chips and partnered with amd to announce ec2 c3 instances but as the as the aws cloud started to scale they really weren't satisfied with the performance gains that they were getting and they were hitting architectural barriers that prompted aws to start a partnership with anaperta labs this was back in 2014 and they launched then ec2 c4 instances in 2015. the asic in c4 optimized offload functions for storage and networking but still relied on intel xeon as the control point aws aws shelled out a reported 350 million dollars to acquire annapurna in 2015 which is a meager sum to acquire the secret sauce of its future system design this acquisition led to a modern version of project nitro in 2017 nitro nitro offload cards were first introduced in 2013 at this time aws introduced c5 instances and replaced zen with kvm and more tightly coupled the hypervisor with the asic vogels shared last year that this milestone offloaded the remaining components including the control plane the rest of the i o and enabled nearly a hundred percent of the processing to support customer workloads it also enabled a bare metal version of the compute that spawned the partnership the famous partnership with vmware to launch vmware cloud on aws then in 2018 aws took the next step and introduced graviton its custom designed arm-based chip this broke the dependency on x86 and launched a new era of architecture which now supports a wide variety of configurations to support data intensive workloads now these moves preceded other aws innovations including new chips optimized for machine learning and training and inferencing and all kinds of ai the bottom line is aws has architected an approach that offloaded the work currently done by the central processing unit in most general purpose workloads like in the data center it has set the stage in our view for the future allowing shared memory memory disaggregation and independent resources that can be configured to support workloads from the cloud all the way to the edge and nitro is the key to this architecture and to summarize aws nitro think of it as a set of custom hardware and software that runs on an arm-based platform from annapurna aws has moved the hypervisor the network the storage virtualization to dedicated hardware that frees up the cpu to run more efficiently this in our opinion is where the entire industry is headed so let's take a look at that this chart pulls data from the etr data set and lays out key players competing for the future of cloud data center and the edge now we've superimposed nvidia up top and intel they don't show up directly in the etr survey but they clearly are platform players in the mix we covered nvidia extensively in previous breaking analysis and won't go too deep there today but the data shows net scores on the vertical axis that's a measure of spending velocity and then it shows market share in the horizontal axis which is a measure of pervasiveness within the etr data set we're not going to dwell on the relative positions here rather let's comment on the players and start with aws we've laid out aws how they got here and we believe they are setting the direction for the future of the industry and aws is really pushing migration to its arm-based platforms pat morehead at the 6-5 summit spoke to dave brown who heads ec2 at aws and he talked extensively about migrating from x86 to aws's arm-based graviton 2. and he announced a new developer challenge to accelerate that migration to arm instances graviton instances and the end game for customers is a 40 better price performance so a customer running 100 server instances can do the same work with 60 servers now there's some work involved but for the by the customers to actually get there but the payoff if they can get 40 improvement in price performance is quite large imagine this aws currently offers 400 different ec2 instances last year as we reported sorry last year as we reported earlier this year nearly 50 percent of the new ec2 instances so nearly 50 percent of the new ec2 instances shipped in 2020 were arm based and aws is working hard to accelerate this pace it's very clear now let's talk about intel i'll just say it intel is finally responding in earnest and basically it's taking a page out of arm's playbook we're going to dig into that a bit today in 2015 intel paid 16.7 billion dollars for altera a maker of fpgas now also at the 6.5 summit nevin shenoy of intel presented details of what intel is calling an ipu it's infrastructure processing unit this is a departure from intel norms where everything is controlled by a central processing unit ipu's are essentially smart knicks as our dpus so don't get caught up in all the acronym soup as we've reported it's all about offloading work and disaggregating memory and evolving socs system-on-chip and sops system on package but just let this sink in a bit a bit for a moment intel's moves this past week it seems to us anyway are designed to create a platform that is nitro like and the basis of that platform is a 16.7 billion dollar acquisition just compare that to aws's 350 million dollar tuck-in of annapurna that is incredible now chenoy said in his presentation rough quote we've already deployed ipu's using fpgas in a in very high volume at microsoft azure and we've recently announced partnerships with baidu jd cloud and vmware so let's look at vmware vmware is the other you know really big platform player in this race in 2020 vmware announced project monterrey you might recall that it's based on the aforementioned fpgas from intel so vmware is in the mix and it chose to work with intel most likely for a variety of reasons one of the obvious ones is all the software that's running on on on vmware it's been built for x86 and there's a huge install base there the other is pat was heading vmware at the time and and you know when project monterey was conceived so i'll let you connect the dots if you like regardless vmware has a nitro like offering in our view its optionality however is limited by intel but at least it's in the game and appears to be ahead of the competition in this space aws notwithstanding because aws is clearly in the lead now what about microsoft and google suffice it to say that we strongly believe that despite the comments that intel made about shipping fpgas and volume to microsoft that both microsoft and google as well as alibaba will follow aws's lead and develop an arm-based platform like nitro we think they have to in order to keep pace with aws now what about the rest of the data center pack well dell has vmware so despite the split we don't expect any real changes there dell is going to leverage whatever vmware does and do it better than anyone else cisco is interesting in that it just revamped its ucs but we don't see any evidence that it has a nitro like plans in its roadmap same with hpe now both of these companies have history and capabilities around silicon cisco designs its own chips today for carrier class use cases and and hpe as we've reported probably has some remnants of the machine hanging around but both companies are very likely in our view to follow vmware's lead and go with an intel based design what about ibm well we really don't know we think the best thing ibm could do would be to move the ibm cloud of course to an arm-based nitro-like platform we think even the mainframe should move to arm as well i mean it's just too expensive to build a specialized mainframe cpu these days now oracle they're interesting if we were running oracle we would build an arm-based nitro-like database cloud where oracle the database runs cheaper faster and consumes less energy than any other platform that would would dare to run oracle and we'd go one step further and we would optimize for competitive databases in the oracle cloud so we would make oci run the table on all databases and be essentially the database cloud but you know back to sort of fpgas we're not overly excited about about the market amd is acquiring xi links for 35 billion dollars so i guess that's something to get excited about i guess but at least amd is using its inflated stock price to do the deal but we honestly we think that the arm ecosystem will will obliterate the fpga market by making it simpler and faster to move to soc with far better performance flexibility integration and mobility so again we're not too sanguine about intel's acquisition of altera and the moves that amd is making in in the long term now let's take a deeper look at intel's vision of the data center of the future here's a chart that intel showed depicting its vision of the future of the data center what you see is the ipu's which are intelligent nixed and they're embedded in the four blocks shown and they're communicating across a fabric now you have general purpose compute in the upper left and machine intelligent on the bottom left machine intelligence apps and up in the top right you see storage services and then the bottom right variation of alternative processors and this is intel's view of how to share resources and go from a world where everything is controlled by a central processing unit to a more independent set of resources that can work in parallel now gelsinger has talked about all the cool tech that this will allow intel to incorporate including pci and gen 5 and cxl memory interfaces and or cxl memory which are interfaces that enable memory sharing and disaggregation and 5g and 6g connectivity and so forth so that's intel's view of the future of the data center let's look at arm's vision of the future and compare them now there are definite similarities as you can see especially on the right hand side of this chart you've got the blocks of different process processor types these of course are programmable and you notice the high bandwidth memory the hbm3 plus the ddrs on the two sides kind of bookending the blocks that's shared across the entire system and it's connected by pcie gen 5 cxl or ccix multi-die socket so you know you may be looking to say okay two sets of block diagrams big deal well while there are similarities around disaggregation and i guess implied shared memory in the intel diagram and of course the use of advanced standards there are also some notable differences in particular arm is really already at the soc level whereas intel is talking about fpgas neoverse arms architecture is shipping in test mode and we'll have end market product by year end 2022 intel is talking about maybe 2024 we think that's aspirational or 2025 at best arm's road map is much more clear now intel said it will release more details in october so we'll pay attention then maybe we'll recalibrate at that point but it's clear to us that arm is way further along now the other major difference is volume intel is coming at this from a high data center perspective and you know presumably plans to push down market or out to the edge arm is coming at this from the edge low cost low power superior price performance arm is winning at the edge and based on the data that we shared earlier from aws it's clearly gaining ground in the enterprise history strongly suggests that the volume approach will win not only at the low end but eventually at the high end so we want to wrap by looking at what this means for customers and the partner ecosystem the first point we'd like to make is follow the consumer apps this capability the capabilities that we see in consumer apps like image processing and natural language processing and facial recognition and voice translation these inference capabilities that are going on today in mobile will find their way into the enterprise ecosystem ninety percent of the cost associated with machine learning in the cloud is around inference in the future most ai in the enterprise and most certainly at the edge will be inference it's not today because it's too expensive this is why aws is building custom chips for inferencing to drive costs down so it can increase adoption now the second point is we think that customers should start experimenting and see what you can do with arm-based platforms moore's law is accelerating at least the outcome of moore's law the doubling of performance every of the 18 to 24 months it's it's actually much higher than that now when you add up all the different components in these alternative processors just take a look at apple's a5 a15 chip and arm is in the lead in terms of performance price performance cost and energy consumption by moving some workloads onto graviton for example you'll see what types of cost savings you can drive for which applications and possibly generate new applications that you can deliver to your business put a couple engineers in the task and see what they can do in two or three weeks you might be surprised or you might say hey it's too early for us but you'll find out and you may strike gold we would suggest that you talk to your hybrid cloud provider as well and find out if they have a nitro we shared that vmware they've got a clear path as does dell because they're you know vmware cousins what about your other strategic suppliers what's their roadmap what's the time frame to move from where they are today to something that resembles nitro do they even think about that how do they think about that do they think it's important to get there so if if so or if not how are they thinking about reducing your costs and supporting your new workloads at scale now for isvs these consumer capabilities that we discussed earlier all these mobile and and automated systems and cars and and things like that biometrics another example they're going to find their way into your software and your competitors are porting to arm they're embedding these consumer-like capabilities into their apps are you we would strongly recommend that you take a look at that talk to your cloud suppliers and see what they can do to help you innovate run faster and cut costs okay that's it for now thanks to my collaborator david floyer who's been on this topic since early last decade thanks to the community for your comments and insights and hey thanks to patrick morehead and daniel newman for some timely interviews from your event nice job fellas remember i published each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes are all available as podcasts just search for breaking analysis podcasts you can always connect with me on twitter at d vallante or email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com i appreciate the comments on linkedin and clubhouse so follow us if you see us in a room jump in and let's riff on these topics and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time

(thoughtful electronic music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Enterprise applications are an enormous market, and they're enormously important to organizations globally. Essentially, the world's businesses are running on enterprise applications. Companies' processes are wired into these systems, and the investments that they make in people, process, and technology are vital to these companies' success. But it's complicated because many of these systems are decades old. Markets have changed, but the ERP system for example fundamentally hasn't. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. This week, we're going to do a data download on the enterprise software space, and put forth some themes in our thesis around this very important segment. I'd like to do a shout-out to my friend Sarbjeet Johal, who helped me frame this segment, and he's a strategic thinker and he shared some excellent insights for this episode. What I'd first like to do is let's lay out the scope of what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to focus on the core enterprise apps that companies rely on to run their businesses. Talkin' about the systems of record here, the ERP, the financial systems, HR, CRMs, service management we'll put in there. We may touch on some of the other areas, but this is core that we're going to drill into. This is a big, big market. Customers spend many hundreds of billions of dollars in this area, you could argue about a half a trillion. And it's a mature market, as you'll see from the data. Look, it's good to be in the technology business today. This business is doing better than most, and within the technology business, it's better to be in software because of the economics and scale. And if you have a SaaS cloud model, it's even better. But the market, it is fragmented, not nearly as much as it used to be, but there are many specialized areas where leaders have emerged. ServiceNow and ITSM or Workday and HCM are good examples of companies that've specialized and then exploded, first as we saw ServiceNow blow past Workday's valuation. It was nearly 2x at one point. Now, that was before Workday crushed its earnings this week. It's up 15% today. ServiceNow took a slight breather earlier this month, but it's up on Workday sympathy today. Salesforce also beat earnings, and of course replaced Exxon Mobile on the DOW Industrials, can you imagine that? But let's bring it back to this digital transformation that you hear about. This is the big cliche from all the tech companies and especially software players. Now a lot of this DX, I sometimes call it, is related to old systems. It's especially true for the mega-caps like Oracle, SAP, PeopleSoft, JD Edwards, and even Microsoft. Take ERP and some of the mature products for example, like Oracle R12, or SAP R3 or R4. Many of these systems were put in place 15 years ago, and yeah, they're going to need to transform. They are burnt in. They were installed in what, 2005? It was before the iPhone, before social media, before machine learning and AI made its big comeback, and before cloud. These systems were built on the 1.0 of cloud. The businesses have changed but the software really hasn't. It happens every 10 to 15 years, companies have to upgrade or re-implement their systems, and optimize for the way business now runs, because they had to be more competitive and more agile. They can't do it on their old software. And God help you if you made a bunch of custom modifications. Good lucking tryin' to rip those out. And this is why pure play companies in the cloud like ServiceNow and Workday have done so well. They're best-of-breed and they're cloud, and it sets up this age-old battle that we always talk about, best-of-breed versus integrated suites. So let's bring in some of the other themes and feedback that we get from the community. Now we've definitely seen this schism play out between on-prem and cloud plays. And that's created some challenges for the legacy players. People working remotely has meant less data center, less on-prem action for the legacy companies. Now, they have gone out and acquired to get to the cloud and/or they've had to rearchitect their software like Oracle has done with Fusion. But think about something like Oracle Financials. Oracle is tryna migrate them to Fusion, or think about SAP R3, with R4, SAP pushing HANA. All this is going to cloud-based SaaS. So the companies that've been pure play SaaS are doing better, and I say quasi-modern on this slide because Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, even Coupa, NetSuite which is now Oracle, SuccessFactors which SAP purchased, et cetera, these are actually pretty old companies, the earlier part of the 2000s or in the case of Salesforce, 1999. And you're seeing some really different pricing models in the market. Things are moving quickly to an OPEX model. You have the legacy perpetual pricing, and it's giving way to subscriptions, and now we even see companies like Datadog and Snowflake with so-called consumption-based pricing models, priced as a true cloud. And we think that that's going to eventually spill into the core SaaS applications. Now one of the concerns that we've heard from the community is that some of the traditional players that were able to hide from COVID earlier this year might not have enough deferred revenue dry powder to continue to power through the pandemic, but so far the picture continues to look pretty strong for the software companies. We'll get into some of that. Now, finally, this is a premise that I talked to Sarbjeet about, the disruption perhaps comes from cloud and developer ecosystems. Y'know I remember John Furrier and I had a conversation awhile back with Jerry Chen from Greylock. It was on theCUBE, and it was kind of like, went like this. People were talking about whether AWS was going to enter the applications market, and the thesis here is no, or not in the near future. Rather, the disruptive play, and this is really Sarbjeet's premise, is to provide infrastructure for innovation, and a PaaS layer for differentiation, and developers will build modern cloud-native apps to compete with the SaaS players on top of this. This is intriguing to me, and is likely going to play out over the next decade, but it's going to take a while, because these SaaS players are, they're very large, and they continue to pour money into their platforms. Now let's talk about the shift from CAPEX to OPEX and bring in some ETR data. Of course, this was well in play pre-COVID, but the trend has been accelerating. This chart shows data from the August ETR survey, and it was asking people to express their split between CAPEX and OPEX spend, and as you can see, the trend is clear. Goes from 48% last year, 55% today, and moving to over 62% OPEX a year from now. It's no surprise, but I think it could happen even faster depending on the technical debt that organizations have to shed. And hence, the attractiveness again of the SaaS cloud players. So now let's visualize some of the major players in this space, and do some comparisons. Here we show one of our favorite views, and what we're doing here is we juxtapose net score on the vertical axis with market share on the horizontal plane. Remember, net score is a measure of spending momentum. Each quarter, ETR asks buyers, are you planning to spend more or less, and they essentially subtract the lesses from the mores to derive net score. Market share on the other hand is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset, and it's derived from the number of mentions in the sector divided by the total mentions in the survey, and you can see each metric in that embedded table that we put in there. So I said earlier, this was a pretty mature market and you can see that in the table. Eh, kind of middle-of-the-road net scores with pretty large shared ends, i.e. responses in the dataset, but a lot of red. There are some standouts, however, as you see in the upper right, namely, ServiceNow and Salesforce. These are two pretty remarkable companies. ServiceNow entered the market as a help desk or service management player, and has dramatically expanded its TAM, really to the point where they're aiming at $5 billion in revenue. Salesforce was the first in cloud CRM, and is pushing 20 billion in revenue. I've said many times, these companies are on a collision course, and I stand by that, as any of the next great software companies, and these are two, are going to compete with all the mega-caps, including Oracle, SAP, and Microsoft, and they'll bump into each other. Which brings us to those super-cap companies. You see Microsoft with Dynamics, they show up like they always do. I'm like a broken record on Microsoft. I mean they're everywhere in the survey data. Now Oracle and SAP, they've been extremely acquisitive over the years, and you can see some of their acquisitions on this chart. I've said many times in theCUBE that Larry Olsen used to denigrate his competitors for writing checks instead of code, but he saw the consolidation trend happening in the ERT, ERP space before anyone else did, and with the $10 billion PeopleSoft acquisition in 2005, set off a trend in enterprise software that did a few things. First, it solidified Oracle's position further up the stack. It also set Dave Duffield and Aneel Bhusri off to create a next-generation cloud software company, Workday, which you can see in the chart has a net score up there with ServiceNow, Salesforce, and Coupa, and it also led to Oracle Fusion Middleware, which is designed as an integration point for all these software components, and this is really important because Oracle is moving everything into its cloud. And you can see that its on-prem net score, which puts it deep into negative territory. Now SAP, take a look at them, they have much higher net scores than Oracle, and you can see it's acquired SaaS properties like Ariba, Concur, and SuccessFactors, which have decent momentum. But you know, SAP, and we've talked about this before, is not without its challenges. With SAP, HANA is the answer to all of its problems. The problem is that it's not necessarily the answer to all of SAP's customers' problems. Most of SAP's legacy customers run SAP on Oracle or other databases. HANA is used for the in-memory query workload, but most customers are going to continue to use other databases for their systems of record. So this adds complexity. But HANA is very good at the query piece. However, SAP never did what Oracle did with Fusion, which as you might recall, took more than a decade to get right. HANA is SAP's architectural attempt to unify the SAP portfolio and get, (laughs) really get off of Oracle, but it's many years away, and it's unclear when or if they'll ever get there. All right, let's move on. Here's a look at a similar set of companies, but I wanted to show you this view because it gives you a detailed look at ETR's net score approach, and it tells us a few things more. And remember, this is a survey of almost 1,200 technology buyers. That's the N, that's the respondent rate. So this chart shows the net score granularity for the enterprise players that we were just discussing. Let me explain this. Net score is actually more detailed than what I said before. It comprises responses in four categories. The lime green is new adoptions. The forest green is growth in spending of 6% or more, the gray is flat spend, the pink is a budget shrink of 6% or greater, and the red is retiring the platform. So what this tells us is that there's a big fat middle of stay the same. The lime green is pretty small, but you can see, NetSuite jumps out for new adoptions because they've been very aggressive going after smaller and mid-sized companies, and Coupa, the spend management specialist, shows reasonably strong new adoptions. Now ServiceNow is interesting to me. Not a ton of new adoptions. They've landed the ship and really penetrated larger organizations. And while new adoptions are not off the charts, look at the spending more categories, it's very very strong at 46%. And the other really positive thing for ServiceNow is there's very little red. This company is a beast. Now Salesforce similarly, not tons of new adoptions, but 40% spend more. For a company that size, that's pretty impressive. Workday similarly has a very strong spending profile. At the bottom of the chart, you see a fair amount of red, as we saw on the XY graph. But now, let's take another view of net score. Think of this as a zoom in, which takes those bar charts but shows it in a pie format for individual companies. So we're showing this here for ServiceNow, Workday, and Salesforce, and we've superimposed the net score for these three in green, so you can see ServiceNow at 48%, very good for a company headed toward five billion. Same with Workday, 40% for a company of similar size, and Salesforce has a comparable net score, and is significantly larger than those two revenue-wise. Now this is the same view, this next chart's the same view for SAP and Oracle, and you can see substantially lower than the momentum leaders in terms of net score. But these are much larger companies. SAP's about 33 billion, Oracle's closer to 40 billion. But Oracle especially has seen some headwinds from organizations spending less which drags its net score down. But you're not seeing a lot of replacement in Oracle's base because as I said at the top, these systems are fossilized and many are running on Oracle. And the vast majority of mission-critical workloads are especially running on Oracle. Now remember, this isn't a revenue-weighted view. Oracle charges a steep premium based on the number of cores, and it has a big maintenance stream. So while its net score is kind of sucky, its cashflow is not. All right, let's wrap it up here. We have a very large and mature market. But the semi-modern SaaS players like Salesforce and ServiceNow and Workday, they've gone well beyond escape velocity and solidified their positions as great software companies. Others are trying to follow that suit and compete with the biggest of the bigs, i.e. SAP and Oracle. Now I didn't talk much about Microsoft, but as always they show up prominently. They're huge and they're everywhere in this dataset. What I think is interesting is the competitive dynamics that we talked about earlier. These kind of newer SaaS leaders, they're disrupting Oracle and SAP, but they're also increasingly bumping into each other. You know, ServiceNow has HR for example, and they say that they don't compete with Workday, and that's true. But y'know, these two companies, they eye each other and they angle for account control. Same thing with Salesforce. It's that software mindset. The bigger a software company gets, the more they think they can own the world, because it's software, and if you're good at writing code and you see an opportunity that can add value for your customers, you tend to go after it. Now, we didn't talk much about M&A, but that's going to continue here, especially as these companies look for TAM expansion and opportunities to bring in new capabilities, particularly around data, analytics, machine learning, AI and the like, and don't forget industry specialization. You've seen Oracle pick up a number of industry plays and as digital transformation continues, you'll see more crossing of the industry streams because it's data. Now, the disruption isn't blatantly obvious in this market right now, other than SaaS clouds going after SAP and Oracle, and it's because these companies are deeply entrenched in their customer organizations and change is risky. But the cloud developer, the open source API trend, it could lead to disruptions, but I wouldn't expect that until the second half of this decade as cloud ecosystems really begin to evolve and take hold. Okay, well that's it for today. Remember, these Breaking Analysis episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com, so check that out, and please do comment on my LinkedIn posts. Don't forget, check out ETR.plus for all the survey action. Get in touch on Twitter, I'm @dvellante, or email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (thoughtful electronic music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Paolo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE covering empowering the autonomous enterprise. Brought to you by Oracle Consulting. >> Hi everybody, welcome back. You're watching theCUBE. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only of the industry, but the transformation of Oracle Consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here, Group VP of Cloud Advisory and GM of Oracle Elevate which is a partnership that Oracle announced last Open World with Deloitte. And Don Schmidt is here, who's a Managing Director at Deloitte. Gents, good to see ya, welcome. >> Good to be here, Dave. >> So Don, I want to start with you. Transformation, everybody talks about that. There's a lot of trends goin' on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >> Yeah, I think there's an inflection point right now. Everybody's been saying they want to get out of their data centers, though leaps haven't really been taking place. They've been kind of moving in small bits. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale of getting out of your data centers is now here. So we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost-efficiently, and get them out of these data centers so that they can move on with their day-to-day business? >> So data centers just not an efficient use of capital for your customers is what you're saying. >> No, no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster, cheaper, and get onto innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware, floor space, power, cooling. >> Two very well-known brands, you guys get together. So what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on that front. >> Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologists. And back to the point of what we're trying to do with the Cloud when you're trying to do larger transformation, those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA, but if you look at it as why would you try to recreate the situation? Why would you not partner with an organization if it does large business transformation, like a Deloitte? And so the impetus of that is how do we take the technology with a business transformation, pull that together, and back to the one plus one equals three from a customer. That's what they really want. So how to we actually scale that and do really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move a couple application workloads. Our job, what we're really chartered to do is really make huge transformational leaps for our customers using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So it's a huge paradigm for us to kind of do this. >> And in our collaboration with the two organizations, just the opposite for what Mike just said. So Deloitte wasn't really big in big IT. Business-led transformation is kind of what Deloitte's been known for, along with our cyber practice and so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >> So you just described what I would think of as wave one and as you keep peeling, you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have reorganizations. That's really where you guys have expertise, right? >> There's a lot of things you have to sort through and that's where the combined alvic program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools will help make sure we get this right. Deloitte has a product called ATADATA, Oracle has a product called Soar, they marry together properly into this transformational journey to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right, as well. >> Take me through a typical engagement, typical, I know, in quotes, and then how long? Take me to the point at which you start to get business value. What do I got to do to get there? >> So we see two different spectrums on a transformation and it really aligns to what are your objectives. Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on archaic, dying hardware? Or do you want to take your time and make a little bit more of a transformational journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? But in either one of those we'll come in and do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the age or the health of your data center is, help put the customers through a business case, a TCO, how fast or how slow the journey needs to be for them, create what we call wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those, over time, to get out of their data center. In parallel, we're going to be doing, as Mike was saying, around all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their Cloud center of excellence. Getting Cloud operations into the organization is a different skillset for IT to have. They're going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of Cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel. And then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small, little group of safe applications and we can proof out the model works, move those into the Cloud and then what we want to do is we want to scale that out at its large pace, get the IT savings, get the cost cuts out of the organization. >> Do you guys have specific plays or campaigns that I can do to get started? Maybe do a little test case? Any particular offerings that? >> It's all under the program of Elevate. We've got a couple of campaigns. So the biggest one we've been talking about is around the data center transformation, so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. The next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to Oracle's Cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market to genera, put that in it, as well. Those are our three major campaigns. >> The JDE migration, so you've got what? Situations where people have just broken systems? >> Yeah, I would say it's more of a JDE modernization. So you have an organization, right? They may have a JD, a JDE or JD Edwards instance that's really, it's older. They may be on version nine or something like that. They don't want to go all the way to SaaS 'cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that but they also want to take advantage of the higher level of capabilities of Cloud computing: IoT, mobile, et cetera. So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach it together. We work with customers, depending on where they're goin' and going, "Hey, great, you can actually modernize "by taking it up to this version of JDE "through an upgrade process," but that allows you then to move it over to Oracle Cloud infrastructure which allows you to tap into all those platform services, the IoT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get. There's a various, kind of four major phases that we can do, or entry points with a customer on the JDE modernization, we kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has is a deep JDE and as well as Oracle Consulting, and we actually are going to market that together. Matter of fact, we're even at conferences together talking about our approaches, here and in our future. >> In the analytics campaign, so it seems to me a lot of companies don't have their data driven. They want to be data driven, but they're not there yet and so their data's in silos and so I would imagine that that's all about helping them understand where the data is, breaking down, busting down those silos, and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that drives them from data to insight. Is that fair? >> Yeah, fair. Yeah, it's not just doin' reporting and dashboards, it's actually having KPI driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR, finance, and supply chain. >> Guys, two powerhouses. Thanks so much for explaining in theCUBE and to our audience it. Appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. >> All right, thank you everybody for watching. We'll be right back with our next guest. You're watching theCUBE from Chicago. We'll be right back after this short break. (soft electronic music)

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston. It's the Cube covering empowering the autonomous enterprise brought to you by >>Oracle Consulting. Everybody, this is Dave Vellante. We've been covering the transformation of Oracle consulting and really, it's rebirth. And I'm here with Chris Fox, who's the group vice president for Enterprise Cloud Architects and chief technologist for the North America Tech Cloud at Oracle. Chris, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >>Thanks too great to be here, >>So I love this title. You know, years ago, this thing is a cloud architect. Certainly there were chief technologist, but so you really that's those are your peeps, Is that right? >>That's right. That's right. That's really in my team. And I That's all we dio. So our focus is really helping our customers take this journey from when they were on premise. You really transforming with cloud? And when we think about Cloud, really, for us, it's a combination. It's it's our hybrid cloud, which happens to be on premise. And then, of course, the true public cloud, like most people, are familiar with so very exciting journey and frankly, of seeing just a lot of success for our customers. You know what I think we're seeing at Oracle, though? Because we're so connected with SAS. And then we're also connected with the traditional applications that have run the business for years. The legacy applications that have been, you know, servicing us for 20 years and then the cloud native developers. So with my team and I are constantly focused on now is things like digital transformation and really wiring up all three of these across. So if we think of, like a customer outcome like I want to have a package delivered to me from a retailer that actual process flow could touch a brand new cognitive site of e commerce it could touch essentially maybe a traditional application that used to be on Prem that's now in the cloud. And then it might even use new SAS application, maybe for maybe Herman process or delivery vehicle and scheduling. So when my team does, we actually connect all three. So what? I was mentioned, too. In my team and all of our customers, we have field service, all three of those constituents. And if you think about process flows, so I take a cloud. Native developer we help them become efficient. We take the person use to run in a traditional application, and we help them become more efficient. And then we have the SAS applications, which are now rolling out new features on a quarterly basis and the whole new delivery model. But the real key is connecting all three of these into your business process flow. That makes the customers life much more vision. >>So I want to get into this cloud conversations that you guys are using this term last mover advantage. I asked you last I was being last, You know, an advantage. But let me start there. >>People always say, You know, of course, we want to get out of the data center. We're going zero data center and how we say, Well, how are you going to handle that back office stuff, right? The stuff that's really big Frankie, um, doesn't handle just, you know, instances dying or things going away too easily. It needs predictable performance in the scale. It absolutely needs security. And ultimately, you know, a lot of these applications truly have relied on Oracle database. The Oracle database has its own specific characteristics that it means to run really well. So we actually looked at the cloud and we said, Let's take the first generation clouds but you're doing great But let's add the features that specifically a lot of times the Oracle workload needed in order to run very well and in a cost effective manner. So that's what we mean when we say last mover advantage, We said, Let's take the best of the clouds that are out there today. Let's look at the workloads that, frankly, Oracle runs and has been running for years. What are customers needed? And then let's build those features right into this, uh, this next version of the cloud we service the Enterprise. So our goal, honestly, which is interesting is even that first discussion we had about cloud, native and legacy applications and also the new SAS applications. We built a cloud that handles all three use cases at scale resiliently in very secure manner, and I don't know of any other cloud that's handling those three use cases all in. We'll call it the same pendency process. Oracle >>Mike witnesses. Why was it important for Oracle? And is it important for Oracle on its customers that have to participate in IAS and Pass and SAS. Why not just the last two layers of that? Um What does that mean from a strategic advantage standpoint? What does that do for >>you? Yeah, great question. So the number one reason why we needed to have all three was that we have so many customers to today are in a data center. They're running a lot of our workloads on premise, and they absolutely are trying to find a better way to deliver lower cost services to their customers. And so we couldn't just say, Let's just everyone needs to just become net new. Everyone just needs to ditch the old and go just a brand new alone. Too hard, too expensive at times. So we said, You know, let's kill us customers the ultimate amount of choice. So let's even go back against that developer conversation and SAS Um, if you didn't have eyes, we couldn't help customers achieve a zero data center strategy with their traditional applications will call it PeopleSoft or JD Edwards, Revisit Suite or even. There's some massive applications that are running on the Oracle cloud right now that are custom applications built on the Oracle database. What they want is, they said, Give me the lowest. Possibly a predictable performance. I as I'll run my app steer on this number two. Give me a platform service for database because, frankly, I don't really want to run your database. Like with all the manual effort. I want someone automate, patching scale up and down and all these types of features like should have given us. And then number three. You know, I do want SAS over time. So we spend a lot of time with our customers really saying, How do I take this traditional application, Run it on eyes and has and the number two Let's modernize it at scale. Maybe I want to start peeling off functionality and running in the cloud Native services right alongside, right? That's something again that we're doing at scale. And other people are having a hard time running these traditional workloads on Prem in the cloud. The second part is they say, you know, I've got this legacy traditional your api been servicing we well, or maybe a supply chain system ultimately want to get out of this. How do I get to SAS? You say Okay, here's the way to do this. First bring into the cloud running on IAS and pass and then selectively, I call it cloud slicing. Take a piece of functionality and put it into SAS. We're helping customers move to the cloud at scale. We're helping them do it at their rate, with whatever level of change they want. And when they're ready for SAS, we're ready for them. >>How does autonomous fit into this whole architecture Wait for that? That that description? I mean, it's a it's nuanced, but it's important. I'm sure you haven't discussed this conversation with a lot of cloud architects and chief technologist. They want to know this stuff. They want to know how it works. Um, you know, we will talk about what the business impact is, but but yeah, it's not about autonomous and where that fits. >>So the autonomous database, what we've done is really big. And look at all the runtime operations of an Oracle database. So tuning, patching, sparing all these different features and what we've done is taken the best of the Oracle database the best of something called Exit Data right, which we run in the cloud which really helps a lot of our customers. And then we wrapped it with a set of automation and security tools to help it. Really, uh, managing self tune itself. Patch itself scale up and down, independent between compute and storage. So why that's important, though, is that it? Really? Our goal is to help people run the Oracle databases they have for years, but with far less effort and then even not letting far less effort. Hopefully, you know a machine. Last man out of the equation we always talk about is your man plus machine is greater than man alone, so being assisted by, um, artificial intelligence and machine learning to perform those database operations, we should provide a better service to our customers. Far less paths are hoping goal is that people have been running Oracle databases, you know, How can we help them do it with far less effort and maybe spend more time on what the data can do for the organization? Right? Improve customer experience at Centra versus maybe like Hana Way. How do I spin up the table? It >>so talk about the business impact. So you go into customers, you talk to the the cloud Architects, the chief technologist. You pass that test now, you got to deliver the business impact. We're is Oracle Consulting fit with regard to that? And maybe you could talk about that where you were You guys want to take this thing? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so you know, the cloud is a great set of technologies, but where Oracle Consulting is really helping us deliver is in, um, you know, one of the things I think that's been fantastic working with the Oracle consulting team is that, you know, Cloud is new for a lot of customers who've been running these environments for a number of years. There's always some fear and a little bit of trepidation saying, How do I learn this new cloud of the workloads? We're talking about David, like tier zero, tier one, tier two and all the way up to Dev and Test and, er, um, Oracle consulting. This really couple things in particular, Number one, they start with the end in mind, and number two that they start to do is they really help implement these systems. And, you know, there's a lot of different assurances that we have that we're going to get it done on time and better be under budget because ultimately, you know, again, that's a something is really paramount for us and then the third part of it. But sometimes a run book, right? We actually don't want to just live in our customer's environments. We want to help them understand how to run this new system. So training and change management. A lot of times, Oracle Consulting is helping with run books. We usually well, after doing it the first time. We'll sit back and say, Let the customer do in the next few times and essentially help them through the process. And our goal at that point is to leave only if the customer wants us to. But ultimately our goal is to implemented, get it to go live on time and then help the customer learn this journey to the cloud and without them. Frankly, uh, you know, I think these systems were sometimes too complex and difficult to do on your own. Maybe the first time, especially cause I could say they're closing the books. They might be running your entire supply chain. They run your entire HR system, whatever they might be, uh, too important, leading a chance. So they really help us with helping a customer become live and become very confident. Skilled. They could do themselves >>of the conversation. We have to leave it right there. But thanks so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your insights. Great stuff. >>Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. >>All right. You're welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the Cube. We are covering the oracle of North American Consulting. Transformation. And it's rebirth in this digital event. Keep it right there. We'll be right back.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering empowering the autonomous enterprise brought to you by Oracle consulting everybody welcome back you're watching the cube we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise it's a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only the industry but the transformation of Oracle consulting and its rebirth Mike Owens is here group VP of cloud advisory and GM of Oracle elevate which is a partnership at Oracle announced last open world with Deloitte and Don Schmidt is here as a managing director but Deloitte Jets good to see you welcome good to be here today so don't I want to start with you transformation right everybody talks about that there's a lot of trends going on in the industry what do you guys see is the big gestalt transformation that's going on yeah I think there's an inflection point right now all right everybody who didn't say and they want to get out of their data centers the leaves haven't really been taking place right they've been kind of moving in small bits we're now at the point where large transformation and scale of getting out of your data centers is now here so we are here to try to help our clients move faster how can we do this more effectively cost efficiently and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day-to-day business so data center is just not a efficient use of capital for your for your customers no no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster cheaper and get on to innovation spend your money they're not on hardware floor space power cooling two very well-known brands you guys get together so what was the sort of impetus to get together how's it going give us the update on that front oracle has been really technology focused it was really created by technologists right and back to the point of what we're trying to do with the cloud you're trying to do larger transformation those aren't some of the skills that we have we've been brain and some of those skills in DNA but if you look at it is why would you try to recreate this situation why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like a toy right and so the impetus of that is how do we take the technology with the business formation pull that together and back to the one plus one equals three for my customer right that's what they really want so how do we actually scale that and do really big things and get big outcomes for our customers our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move on a couple application workloads our job well we're really charted to do is really make huge transformational leaps for our customers using the combined capabilities of the two organizations so there's it's a huge paradigm for us to kind of do this and in our collaboration with two organizations just the opposite for what Mike just said right so the white wasn't really big in big IT right business led transformations kind of with toys it's been known for along with our cyber practice and so we needed the the deep skills of the technical experts so you just described what I would think of as wave one and then as you keep paling you got the applications you got the business process you might have you know reorganizations that's really weird guys have expertise right there's a lot of things out to sort through right and that's where the combined elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have we both have tools will help make sure we get this right right Deloitte has a protocol out of data oracle has a product called soar they marry together properly into these transformational journey to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right take me through a typical engagement typical and their own quotes and then how long they take me through the point at which you get start to get business value what am I got to do to get there yeah so we see two different spectrums on on a transformation and that really aligns to what are your objectives do you just need to get a data center because you're on archaic dying hardware or do you want to take that take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum but yeah neither one of those will come in and we'll do a discovery conversation we'll understand what's in your data center understand what the the age or the health of your your data center is help the customers through a business case TCO how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them create will create call wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their day Center in parallel we're going to be doing is my co-sign around all the operational aspects so while we're doing that discovery we want to start standing up there cloud center of excellence getting caught operations into their organization is it's a it's a different skill set for IT to have right they are gonna need to retrain themselves retool themselves in the world of cloud so we kind of do that in parallel now what we want to do is when we start a project we wanna start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can proof out the model works move those into the cloud and then what we want to do is we want to scale at it it's a large space right get the IT savings get the cost cuts part of the organization so under the program of elevate we've we've got a couple of campaigns so the biggest one we we've been talking about is around the data center transformation so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together the next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to torquas cloud and then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market do - jinora put that in as well those are three major campaigns the jde migration so you've got what situations where people have yeah it's actually more of a jte modernization or okay so you have an organization right they may have a JD at JD e or JD JD Edwards instance that's really it's older they may be on version 9 or something like that they don't want to go all the way to SAS because they can't simplify the business processes they need to do that but they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of cloud computing right IOT mobile etc right so as a modernization one of the things we're doing is an approach together we worth customers depending where they go and going hey great you can actually modernize by taking up to this version of jde through an upgrade process but that allows you to then to move it over to Oracle cloud infrastructure which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level then you can actually do the higher little analytics that sits on top of that so it's really a journey where the customer wants to get there's various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry with a customer on the jde modernization we kind of work them through so that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a DJ te and as well as Oracle consulting and we actually are going to market that together matter of fact we're even at conferences together talking about our approaches here at the inter future in the analytics campaign so it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven you know they want to be data-driven but they're not you're not there yet and so their data is in silos and so I would imagine that that's all about helping them understand where the data is breaking down busting down those silos and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that that drives their drives are some data to insights is that fair yet fair yeah it's not just doing reporting and dashboards it's it's actually having KPI driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations and so the Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR finance and supply chain guys from powerhouses thanks so much for explaining in the cube and to our audience appreciate it Chris Dave all right okay thank you everybody for watching we're right back with our next guest you're watching the cube from Chicago we're right back right after this short break

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, it's theCUBE! Covering empowering the autonomous enterprise. Brought to you by ORACLE Consulting. >> Back to theCUBE everybody, this is Dave Vellante. We've been covering the transformation of ORACLE Consulting, and really it's rebirth, and I'm here with Chris Fox, who's the Group Vice President for Enterprise Cloud Architects and Chief Technologist for the North America Tech Cloud at ORACLE. Chris, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, glad to be here. >> So, I love this title. I mean, years ago, there was no such thing as a cloud architect. Certainly there were chief technologists, but so, you are really, those are your peeps, is that right? >> That's right, that's right. That's really my team and I, that's all we do. So, our focus is really helping our customers take this journey from when they were on-premise to really transforming with cloud, and when we think about cloud, really, for us, it's a combination. It's our hybrid cloud, which happens to be on-premise, and then, of course, the true public cloud, like most people are familiar with. So, very exciting journey and, frankly, I've seen just a lot of success for our customers. You know, Dave, what I think we're seeing at ORACLE though, because we're so connected with SaaS, and then we're also connected with the traditional applications that have run the business for years, the legacy applications that have been, you know, servicing us for 20 years, and then the cloud needed developers. So, what my team and I are constantly focused on now is things like digital transformation and really wiring up all three of these across. So, if we think of, like, a customer outcome like I want to have a package delivered to me from a retailer, that actual process flow could touch a brand new cloud-native site from eCommerce, it could touch, essentially, maybe a traditional application that used to be on-prem that's now on the cloud, and then it might even use a new SaaS application, maybe, for maybe a permit process or delivery vehicle and scheduling. So, what my team does, we actually connect all three. So, what I always mention to my team and all of our customers, we have to be able to service all three of those constituents and really think about process flows. So, I take the cloud-native developer, we help them become efficient. We take the person who's been running that traditional application and we help them become more efficient, and then we have the SaaS applications, which are now rolling out new features on a quarterly basis and it's a whole new delivery model, but the real key is connecting all three of these into a business process flow that makes the customer's life much more efficient. People always say, you know, Chris, we want to get out of the data center, we're going zero data center, and I always say, well, how are you going to handle that back office stuff? Right? The stuff that's really big, it's cranky, doesn't handle just, you know, instances dying or things going away too easily. It needs predictable performance, it needs scale, it absolutely needs security, and ultimately, you know, a lot of these applications truly have relied on an ORACLE database. The ORACLE database has its own specific characteristics that it needs to run really well. So, we actually looked at the cloud and we said, let's take the first generation clouds, which are doing great, but let's add the features that specifically, a lot of times, the ORACLE workload needed in order to run very well and in a cost effective manner. So, that's what we mean when we say last mover advantage. We said, let's take the best of the clouds that are out there today, let's look at the workloads that, frankly, ORACLE runs and has been running for years, what our customers needed, and then let's build those features right into this next version of the cloud which can service the enterprise. So, our goal, honestly, which is interesting, is even that first discussion we had about cloud-native and legacy applications and also the new SaaS applications, we built a cloud that handles all three use cases at scale, resiliently, in a very secure manner, and I don't know of any other cloud that's handling those three use cases all in, we'll call it the same tendency for us at ORACLE. >> My question is why was it important for ORACLE, and is it important for ORACLE and its customers, to participate in IaaS and PaaS and SaaS? Why not just the last two layers of that? What does that give you from a strategic advantage standpoint and what does that do for your customer? >> Yeah, great question. So, the number one reason why we needed to have all three was that we have so many customers who, today, are in a data center. They're running a lot of our workloads on-premise and they absolutely are trying to find a better way to deliver lower-cost services to their customers and so we couldn't just say, let's just, everyone needs to just become net new, everyone just needs to ditch the old and go just to brand-new alone. Too hard, too expensive, at times. So we said, you know, let's give us customers the ultimate amount of choice. So, let's even go back again to that developer conversation in SaaS. If you didn't have IaaS, we couldn't help customers achieve a zero data center strategy with their traditional application, we'll call it PeopleSoft or JD Edwards or E-Business Suite or even, there's some massive applications that are running on the ORACLE cloud right now that are custom applications built on the ORACLE database. What they want is they said, give me the lowest cost but yet predictable performance IaaS. I'll run my apps tier on this. Number two, give me a platform service for database, 'cause frankly, I don't really want to run your database, like, with all the menial effort. I want someone to automate patching, scale up and down, and all these types of features like the cloud should have given us. And then number three, I do want SaaS over time. So, we spend a lot of time with our customers really saying, how do I take this traditional application, run it on IaaS and PaaS, and then number two, let's modernize it at scale. Maybe I want to start peeling off functionality and running them as cloud-native services right alongside, right? That's something, again, that we're doing at scale and other people are having a hard time running these traditional workloads on-prem in the cloud. The second part is they say, you know, I've got this legacy traditional ERP. It's been servicing me well, or maybe a supply chain system. Ultimately I want to get out of this. How do I get to SaaS? And we say, okay, here's the way to do this. First, bring it to the cloud, run it on IaaS and PaaS, and then selectively, I call it cloud slicing, take a piece of functionality and put it into SaaS. We're helping customers move to the cloud at scale. We're helping 'em do it at their rate, with whatever level of change they want, and when they are ready for SaaS, we're ready for them. >> And how does autonomous fit into this whole architecture? Thank you, by the way, for that description. I mean, it's nuanced but it's important. I'm sure you're having this conversation with a lot of cloud architects and chief technologists. They want to know this stuff, and they want to know how it works. And then, obviously, we'll talk about what the business impact is, but talk about autonomous and where that fit. >> So, the autonomous database, what we've done is really taken a look at all the runtime operations of an ORACLE database, so tuning, patching, securing, all these different features, and what we've done is taken the best of the ORACLE database, the best of something called Exadata, right, which we run on the cloud, which really helps a lot of our customers, and then we've wrapped it with a set of automation and security tools to help it really manage itself, tune itself, patch itself, scale up and down independent between computant storage. So, why that's important though is that it really, our goal is to help people run the ORACLE database as they have for years but with far less effort, and then even not only far less effort, hopefully, you know, a machine plus man, kind of the equation we always talk about is man plus machine is greater than man alone. So, being assisted by artificial intelligence and machine learning to perform those database operations, we should provide a better service to our customers with far less cost. Our hope and goal is that people have been running ORACLE databases. How can we help them do it with far less effort, and maybe spend more time on what the data can do for the organization, right? Improve customer experience, etc. Versus maybe, like, how do I spin up (breaks up). >> So, let's talk about the business impact. So, you go into customers, you talk to the cloud architects, the chief technologists, you pass that test. Now you got to deliver the business impact. Where does ORACLE Consulting fit with regard to that? And maybe you could talk about where you guys want to take this thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the cloud is great set of technologies, but where ORACLE Consulting is really helping us deliver is in the outcome. One of the things, I think, that's been fantastic working with the ORACLE Consulting team is that, you know, cloud is new. For a lot of customers who've been running these environments for a number of years, there's always some fear and a little bit of trepidation saying, how do I learn this new cloud? I mean, the workloads we're talking about, Dave, are like tier zero, tier one, tier two and, you know, all the way up to DEV and TEST and DR. ORACLE Consulting does really couple of things in particular. Number one, they start with the end in mind, and number two that they start to do, is they really help implement these systems and there's a lot of different assurances that we have that we're going to get it done on time and better be under budget, 'cause ultimately, again, that's something that's really paramount for us. And then the third part of it, a lot of times it's runbooks, right? We actually don't want to just live in our customers' environments. We want to help them understand how to run this new system, so in training and change management, a lot of times ORACLE Consulting is helping with runbooks. We usually will, after doing it the first time, we'll sit back and let the customer do it the next few times and essentially help them through the process, and our goal at that point is to leave. Only if the customer wants us to, but ultimately our goal is to implement it, get it to go live on time, and then help the customer learn this journey to the cloud. And without them, frankly, I think these systems are sometimes too complex and difficult to do on your own maybe the first time, especially 'cause like I say, they're closing the books. They might be running your entire supply chain. They run your entire HR system or whatever they might be. Too important to leave to chance. So, they really help us with helping the customer become live and become very confident and skilled 'cause they can do it themselves. >> Well Chris, we've covered the gamut. Loved the conversation. We'll have to leave it right there, but thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your insights. Great stuff. >> Absolutely, thanks Dave, and thanks for having me on. >> All right, you're welcome, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We are covering the ORACLE of North America Consulting transformation and its rebirth in this digital event. Keep it right there, we'll be right back.

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston. It's the cube covering, empowering the autonomous enterprise brought to you by Oracle consulting. >>Hi buddy. Welcome back. You're watching the queue. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation, not only the industry but the transformation of Oracle consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here, group VP of cloud advisory and GM of Oracle elevate, which is a partnership that Oracle alone announced last OpenWorld with Deloitte and Don Schmitt and Sierra was a managing director, but to like Jen. Good to see you. Welcome. Good to be here today. So Don want to start with you. A transformation, right? Everybody talks about that. Uh, there's a lot of trends going on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >>Yeah, I think there's an inflection point right now, right? Everybody has been saying they want to get out of their data centers. Um, the leaps haven't really been taken place, right? They've been kind of moving in small bets. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale of getting out of your data centers is now here. So we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost efficiently and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day to day business. >>So data center is just not an efficient use of capital for your, for your customers. >>No, no. There's lots of ways to do this all at faster, cheaper, um, and get onto innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware floor space, power, cooling, >>two very well known brands you guys got together. So what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on, on that front. >>Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologist, right? And back to the point of what you're trying to do with the cloud and you're trying to do larger transformation. Those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA. But if you look at it as why would you try to recreate this situation? Why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like a Deloitte? Right? And so the impetus of that is how do we take the technology with the business transformation, pull that together and back with the one plus one equals three for my customer, right? That's what they really want. So how do we actually scale that into really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move on a couple application workloads. Our job we're really charted to do is really make huge transformational leaps for our customers using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So there's, it's a huge paradigm for us to kind of do this and I, and our collaboration with two organizations, just the opposite for what Mike just said, right? So delight wasn't really big in big it, right? Business led transformation is kind of what Deloitte has been known for right along with our cyber practice. And so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >>So you just described what I would think of is wave one and then as you keep peeling, you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have, you know, reorganizations. That's really what do you guys have expertise. >>There's a lot of things I have to sort through. Right? And that's where the combined, um, elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools or help make sure we get this right. Right. Uh, Deloitte has a product called added data. Oracle has a product called soar. They marry together properly into these transformational journey to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migration's done right. >>Take me through a typical engagement, typical, I know quotes and then how long, like take me through the point at which you get start to get business value. What am I going to do to get there? Yeah. >>So we see two different spectrums on, on a transformation and it really aligns to what are your objectives, objectives? Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on her kick dine hardware or do you want to take that, take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? Um, but yeah, on either one of those we'll come in and we'll do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the, the age or the health of your, your data center is helping the customers through a business case, a TCO, how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them. Create what we call wave groups of how fast in we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their data center. >>In parallel we're going to be doing as was Microsoft around all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their cloud, uh, center of excellence. Getting caught operations into the organization is, uh, it's a, it's a different skill set for it to have, right? They are going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel. And then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can prove out the model works, move those into the cloud. And then what we want to do is we want to scale that it at it's large pace, right? Um, let's get the it savings, get the cost cuts out of the, uh, organization. It was, so under the program of elevate, we've, we've got a couple of campaigns. So the, the biggest one we we've been talking about is around the data center transformation. So that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. Um, the next one is around moving JD Edwards, um, specific applications to, uh, to Oracle's cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market to, to genera. Put that in as well. Those are our three major campaigns, >>the JDE migration. Um, so you've got what situations where people have just, >>yeah, and I would say it's actually more of a JDE modernization or Hey, so you have an organization, right? They may have a JD at J D or J D J D Edwards instance. That's really, it's older. They maybe version nine or something like that. They don't want to go all the way to SAS cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that. But they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of cloud computing, right? IOT, mobile, et cetera. Right. So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach it together. We work with customers depending on where they're go and going, Hey great. You can actually modernize by taking it to this version of JDE through an upgrade process. But that allows you to then to move it over to Oracle cloud infrastructure, which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services, the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get, there's various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry points with a customer on the JDE modernization. We kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a deep JDE. Um, and as well as Oracle consulting. Um, and we actually are going to market that together. Matter of fact, we're even at conferences together talking about our approaches here >>and the analytics, uh, campaign. So it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven. You know, they, they want to be data-driven, but they're not, you're not there yet. And so their data is in silos. And so I would imagine that that's all about helping them understand where the data is breaking down, busting down those silos, and then actually putting in sort of a, an analytics approach that, that drives their drivers from data to insights. Is that fair? >>Yeah. Fair. Yeah. It's not just doing reporting and dashboards. It's, it's actually having KPI driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so the Deloitte has some pre-configured, uh, applications, uh, for, uh, HR, finance and supply chain >>six guys, two powerhouses. Thanks so much for explaining in the cube and to our audience. Appreciate it. Alright, thank you everybody for watching. We'll be right back with our next guest. You're watching the cube from Chicago right back, right after this short break.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, it's theCUBE! Covering empowering the autonomous enterprise. Brought to you by ORACLE Consulting. >> Back to theCUBE everybody, this is Dave Vellante. We've been covering the transformation of ORACLE Consulting, and really it's rebirth, and I'm here with Chris Fox, who's the Group Vice President for Enterprise Cloud Architects and Chief Technologist for the North America Tech Cloud at ORACLE. Chris, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, glad to be here. >> So, I love this title. I mean, years ago, there was no such thing as a cloud architect. Certainly there were chief technologists, but so, you are really, those are your peeps, is that right? >> That's right, that's right. That's really my team and I, that's all we do. So, our focus is really helping our customers take this journey from when they were on-premise to really transforming with cloud, and when we think about cloud, really, for us, it's a combination. It's our hybrid cloud, which happens to be on-premise, and then, of course, the true public cloud, like most people are familiar with. So, very exciting journey and, frankly, I've seen just a lot of success for our customers. You know, Dave, what I think we're seeing at ORACLE though, because we're so connected with SaaS, and then we're also connected with the traditional applications that have run the business for years, the legacy applications that have been, you know, servicing us for 20 years, and then the cloud needed developers. So, what my team and I are constantly focused on now is things like digital transformation and really wiring up all three of these across. So, if we think of, like, a customer outcome like I want to have a package delivered to me from a retailer, that actual process flow could touch a brand new cloud-native site from eCommerce, it could touch, essentially, maybe a traditional application that used to be on-prem that's now on the cloud, and then it might even use a new SaaS application, maybe, for maybe a permit process or delivery vehicle and scheduling. So, what my team does, we actually connect all three. So, what I always mention to my team and all of our customers, we have to be able to service all three of those constituents and really think about process flows. So, I take the cloud-native developer, we help them become efficient. We take the person who's been running that traditional application and we help them become more efficient, and then we have the SaaS applications, which are now rolling out new features on a quarterly basis and it's a whole new delivery model, but the real key is connecting all three of these into a business process flow that makes the customer's life much more efficient. People always say, you know, Chris, we want to get out of the data center, we're going zero data center, and I always say, well, how are you going to handle that back office stuff? Right? The stuff that's really big, it's cranky, doesn't handle just, you know, instances dying or things going away too easily. It needs predictable performance, it needs scale, it absolutely needs security, and ultimately, you know, a lot of these applications truly have relied on an ORACLE database. The ORACLE database has its own specific characteristics that it needs to run really well. So, we actually looked at the cloud and we said, let's take the first generation clouds, which are doing great, but let's add the features that specifically, a lot of times, the ORACLE workload needed in order to run very well and in a cost effective manner. So, that's what we mean when we say last mover advantage. We said, let's take the best of the clouds that are out there today, let's look at the workloads that, frankly, ORACLE runs and has been running for years, what our customers needed, and then let's build those features right into this next version of the cloud which can service the enterprise. So, our goal, honestly, which is interesting, is even that first discussion we had about cloud-native and legacy applications and also the new SaaS applications, we built a cloud that handles all three use cases at scale, resiliently, in a very secure manner, and I don't know of any other cloud that's handling those three use cases all in, we'll call it the same tendency for us at ORACLE. >> My question is why was it important for ORACLE, and is it important for ORACLE and its customers, to participate in IaaS and PaaS and SaaS? Why not just the last two layers of that? What does that give you from a strategic advantage standpoint and what does that do for your customer? >> Yeah, great question. So, the number one reason why we needed to have all three was that we have so many customers who, today, are in a data center. They're running a lot of our workloads on-premise and they absolutely are trying to find a better way to deliver lower-cost services to their customers and so we couldn't just say, let's just, everyone needs to just become net new, everyone just needs to ditch the old and go just to brand-new alone. Too hard, too expensive, at times. So we said, you know, let's give us customers the ultimate amount of choice. So, let's even go back again to that developer conversation in SaaS. If you didn't have IaaS, we couldn't help customers achieve a zero data center strategy with their traditional application, we'll call it PeopleSoft or JD Edwards or E-Business Suite or even, there's some massive applications that are running on the ORACLE cloud right now that are custom applications built on the ORACLE database. What they want is they said, give me the lowest cost but yet predictable performance IaaS. I'll run my apps tier on this. Number two, give me a platform service for database, 'cause frankly, I don't really want to run your database, like, with all the menial effort. I want someone to automate patching, scale up and down, and all these types of features like the cloud should have given us. And then number three, I do want SaaS over time. So, we spend a lot of time with our customers really saying, how do I take this traditional application, run it on IaaS and PaaS, and then number two, let's modernize it at scale. Maybe I want to start peeling off functionality and running them as cloud-native services right alongside, right? That's something, again, that we're doing at scale and other people are having a hard time running these traditional workloads on-prem in the cloud. The second part is they say, you know, I've got this legacy traditional ERP. It's been servicing me well, or maybe a supply chain system. Ultimately I want to get out of this. How do I get to SaaS? And we say, okay, here's the way to do this. First, bring it to the cloud, run it on IaaS and PaaS, and then selectively, I call it cloud slicing, take a piece of functionality and put it into SaaS. We're helping customers move to the cloud at scale. We're helping 'em do it at their rate, with whatever level of change they want, and when they are ready for SaaS, we're ready for them. >> And how does autonomous fit into this whole architecture? Thank you, by the way, for that description. I mean, it's nuanced but it's important. I'm sure you're having this conversation with a lot of cloud architects and chief technologists. They want to know this stuff, and they want to know how it works. And then, obviously, we'll talk about what the business impact is, but talk about autonomous and where that fit. >> So, the autonomous database, what we've done is really taken a look at all the runtime operations of an ORACLE database, so tuning, patching, securing, all these different features, and what we've done is taken the best of the ORACLE database, the best of something called Exadata, right, which we run on the cloud, which really helps a lot of our customers, and then we've wrapped it with a set of automation and security tools to help it really manage itself, tune itself, patch itself, scale up and down independent between computant storage. So, why that's important though is that it really, our goal is to help people run the ORACLE database as they have for years but with far less effort, and then even not only far less effort, hopefully, you know, a machine plus man, kind of the equation we always talk about is man plus machine is greater than man alone. So, being assisted by artificial intelligence and machine learning to perform those database operations, we should provide a better service to our customers with far less cost. Our hope and goal is that people have been running ORACLE databases. How can we help them do it with far less effort, and maybe spend more time on what the data can do for the organization, right? Improve customer experience, etc. Versus maybe, like, how do I spin up (breaks up). >> So, let's talk about the business impact. So, you go into customers, you talk to the cloud architects, the chief technologists, you pass that test. Now you got to deliver the business impact. Where does ORACLE Consulting fit with regard to that? And maybe you could talk about where you guys want to take this thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the cloud is great set of technologies, but where ORACLE Consulting is really helping us deliver is in the outcome. One of the things, I think, that's been fantastic working with the ORACLE Consulting team is that, you know, cloud is new. For a lot of customers who've been running these environments for a number of years, there's always some fear and a little bit of trepidation saying, how do I learn this new cloud? I mean, the workloads we're talking about, Dave, are like tier zero, tier one, tier two and, you know, all the way up to DEV and TEST and DR. ORACLE Consulting does really couple of things in particular. Number one, they start with the end in mind, and number two that they start to do, is they really help implement these systems and there's a lot of different assurances that we have that we're going to get it done on time and better be under budget, 'cause ultimately, again, that's something that's really paramount for us. And then the third part of it, a lot of times it's runbooks, right? We actually don't want to just live in our customers' environments. We want to help them understand how to run this new system, so in training and change management, a lot of times ORACLE Consulting is helping with runbooks. We usually will, after doing it the first time, we'll sit back and let the customer do it the next few times and essentially help them through the process, and our goal at that point is to leave. Only if the customer wants us to, but ultimately our goal is to implement it, get it to go live on time, and then help the customer learn this journey to the cloud. And without them, frankly, I think these systems are sometimes too complex and difficult to do on your own maybe the first time, especially 'cause like I say, they're closing the books. They might be running your entire supply chain. They run your entire HR system or whatever they might be. Too important to leave to chance. So, they really help us with helping the customer become live and become very confident and skilled 'cause they can do it themselves. >> Well Chris, we've covered the gamut. Loved the conversation. We'll have to leave it right there, but thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your insights. Great stuff. >> Absolutely, thanks Dave, and thanks for having me on. >> All right, you're welcome, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We are covering the ORACLE of North America Consulting transformation and its rebirth in this digital event. Keep it right there, we'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE everybody. This is Dave Vellante. We've been covering the transformation of Oracle Consulting and really its rebirth. And I'm here with Chris Fox, who's the Group Vice President for Enterprise Cloud Architects and Chief Technologist for the North America Tech Cloud at Oracle. Chris, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, glad to be here. >> So I love this title. I mean years ago there was no such thing as a Cloud Architect, certainly there were Chief Technologists but so you are really-- Those are your peeps, is that right? >> That's right. That's right. That's really, my team and I, that's all we do. So our focus is really helping our customers take this journey from when they were on premise to really transforming with cloud. And when we think about cloud, really for us, it's a combination. It's our hybrid cloud which happens to be on premise and then of course the true public cloud like most people are familiar with. So, very exciting journey and frankly I've seen just a lot of success for our customers. >> interesting that you hear conversations like, "Oh every company is a software company" which by the way we believe. Everybody's got a some kind of SaaS offering, but it really used to be the application, heads within organizations that had a lot of the power, still do, but of course you have cloud native developers etc. And now you have this new role of Cloud Architects, they've got to align, essentially have to provide infrastructure and capabilities so that you can be agile from a development standpoint. I wonder if you can talk about that dynamic of how the roles have evolved in the last several years. >> Yeah, you know it's very interesting now because as Oracle we spend a lot of our time with those applications owners. As a leader in SaaS right now, SaaS ERP, HCM. You just start walking through the list, they're transforming their organizations. They're trying to make their lives, much more efficient, better for their employees or customers etc. On the other side of the spectrum, we have the cloud native development teams and they're looking at better ways to deploy, develop applications, roll out new features at scale, roll out new pipelines. But Dave, what I think we're seeing at Oracle though, because we're so connected with SaaS and then we're also connected with the traditional applications that have run the business for years, the legacy applications that have been servicing us for 20 years and then the cloud native developers. So what my team and I are constantly focused on now is things like digital transformation and really wiring up all three of these across. So if we think of like a customer outcome, like I want to have a package delivered to me from a retailer, that actual process flow could touch a brand new cloud native site from e-commerce. It could touch essentially, maybe a traditional application that used to be on prem that's now on the cloud and then it might even use some new SaaS application maybe for maybe a procurement process or delivery vehicle and scheduling. So what my team does, we actually connect all three. So, what I always mention to my team and all of our customers, we have to be able to service all three of those constituents and really think about process flows. So I take the cloud native developer, we help them become efficient. We take the person who's been running that traditional application and we help them become more efficient. And then we have the SaaS applications which are now rolling out new features on a quarterly basis and the whole new delivery model. But the real key is connecting all three of these into a business process flow that makes the customer's life much more efficient. >> So what you're saying is that these Cloud Architects and the sort of modern day Chief Technologists, they're multi tool players. It's not just about cloud, it's about connecting that cloud to, whether the system's on prem or other clouds. Is that right? >> It is. You know and one thing that we're seeing too Dave, is that we know it's multi cloud. So it could be Oracle's cloud, hopefully it's always Oracle's cloud, but we don't expect that. So as architects, we certainly have to take a look at what is it that we're trying to optimize? What's the outcome we're looking for? And then be able to work across these teams, and I think what makes it probably most fun and exciting, on one day in one morning, let's say, you could be talking to the cloud native developer team. Talking about Kubernetes, CI/CD pipelines, all the great technologies that help us roll out applications and features faster. Then you'll go to a traditional, maybe Oracle E-Business suite job. This is something that's been running on prem maybe for 20 years, and it's really still servicing the business. And then you have another team that maybe is rolling out a SaaS application from Oracle. And literally all three teams are connected by a process flow. So the question is, how do we optimize all three on behalf of either the customer, the employee, the supplier? And that's really the job for the Oracle Cloud Architect. Which I think, really good, that's different than the other cloud because for the most part, we actually do offer SaaS, we offer platform, we offer infrastructure and we offer the hybrid cloud on prem. So it's a common conversation. How do we optimize all these? >> So I want to get into this cloud conversation a little bit. You guys are used to this term last mover advantage. I got to ask you about it. How is being last an advantage? But let me start there. >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, so frankly speaking I think that-- So Oracle has been developing, what's interesting is our SaaS applications for many, many, many years, and where we began this journey is looking at SaaS. And then we started with platform. Right after that we started saying how do we augment SaaS? This OCI for us or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure Gen 2 could be considered a last mover advantage. What does that mean? We join this cloud journey later than the others but because of our heritage, of the workloads we've been running, right? We've been running enterprise scale workloads for years, the cloud itself has been phenomenal, right? It's easier to use, pay for what you use, elastic etc. These are all phenomenal features, fell. And based on our enterprise heritage it wasn't delivering resilience at scale, even for like the traditional applications we've known on prem forever. People always say, "Chris we want to get out of the data center. "We're going zero data center." And I always say, "Well, how are you going to handle that back office stuff?" Right? The stuff that's really big, it's cranky, doesn't handle just, instances dying or things going away too easily. It needs predictable performance. It needs scale. It absolutely needs security and ultimately a lot of these applications truly have relied on an Oracle database. The Oracle database has it's own specific characteristics that it needs to run really well. So we actually looked at the cloud and we said, let's take the first generation clouds, which are doing great, but let's add the features that specifically, a lot of times, the Oracle workload needed in order to run very well and in a cost effective manner. So that's what we mean when we say, last mover advantage. We said, let's take the best of the clouds that are out there today. Let's look at the workloads that, frankly Oracle runs and has been running for years, what our customers needed and then let's build those features right into this next version of the cloud, we can service the enterprise. So our goal, honestly what's interesting is, even that first discussion we had about cloud native, and legacy applications, and also the new SaaS applications, we built a cloud that handles all three use cases, at scale resiliently in a very secure manner, and I don't know of any other cloud that's handling those three use cases, all in, we'll call it the same tendency for us at Oracle. >> Let's unpack that a little bit and get into, sort of, trying to understand the strategy and I want to frame it. So you were the last really to enter the cloud market, let's sort of agree on that. >> Chris: Yup. >> And you kind of built it from the ground up. And it's just too expensive now. The CapEx required to get into cloud is just astronomical. Now, even for a SaaS company, there's no sense. If you're a new SaaS company, you're going to run it in the cloud. Somebody else's cloud. There are some SaaS companies that of course run their own data centers but they're fewer and further between. But so, and I've also said that your advantage relative to the hyper scalers is that you've got this big SaaS estate and it somewhat insulates you, actually more than somewhat. Largely insulates you from the race to the bottom. On compute and storage, cost per bit kind of thing. But my question is, why was it was it important for Oracle, and is it important for Oracle and it's customers, that it had to participate in IaaS and PaaS and SaaS? Why not just the last two layers of that? What does that give you from a strategic advantage standpoint and what does that do for your customer? >> Yeah, great question. So the number one reason why we needed to have all three was that we have so many customers to today that are in a data center. They're running a lot of our workloads on premise and they absolutely are trying to find a better way to deliver a lower cost services to their customers. And, so, we couldn't just say let's just-- everyone needs to just become net new. Everyone just needs to ditch the old and go just to brand new alone. Too hard, too expensive at times. So we said, let's give us customers the ultimate amount of choice. So, let's even go back again to that developer conversation in SaaS. If you didn't have IaaS, we couldn't help customers achieve a zero data center strategy with their traditional application. We'll call it Peoplesoft, or JD Edwards or E-Business suite or even-- there's some massive applications that are running on the Oracle cloud right now that are custom applications built on the Oracle database. What they want is they said, "Give me the lowest ASP to get predictable performance IaaS" I'll run my app's tier on this. Number two, give me a platform service for database 'cause frankly, I don't really want to run your database, like, with all the manual effort, I want someone to automate, patching, scale up and down, and all these types of features like the pilot should have given us. And then number three, I do want SaaS over time. So we spend a lot of time with our customers, really saying, "how do I take this traditional application, run it on IaaS and PaaS?" And then number two, "let's modernize it at scale." Maybe I want to start peeling off functionality and running them as cloud native services right alongside, right? That's something again, that we're doing at scale, and other people are having a hard time running these traditional workloads on prem in the cloud. The second part is they say, "You know, I've got this legacy traditional ERP. Been servicing we well or maybe a supply chain system. Ultimately I want to get out of this. How do I get to SaaS?" And we say, "Okay, here's the way to do this. First, bring into the cloud, run it on IaaS and PaaS. And then selectively, I call it cloud slicing. Take a piece of functionality and put it into SaaS." For ERP, it might be something like start with GL, a new chart of accounts in ERP SaaS. And then slowly over a number of your journey as needed, adopt the next module. So this way, I mean, I'll just say this is the fun part of as an architect, our jobs, we're helping customers move to the cloud at scale, we're helping them do it at their rate, with whatever level of change they want. And when they're ready for SaaS, we're ready for them. And I would just say the other IaaS providers, here's the challenge we're seeing Dave, is that they're getting to the cloud, they're doing a little bit of modernization, but they want PaaS, they also want to ultimately get to SaaS, and frankly, those other clouds don't offer them. So they're kind of in this we're stuck on this lift and shift. But then we want to really move and modernize and go to SaaS. And I would say that's what Oracle is doing right now for enterprises. We're really helping them move these traditional workloads to the cloud IaaS and PaaS. And then number two, they're moving to SaaS when they're ready. And even when you get to SaaS, everyone says, "You know what, leave it as as vanilla as possible, but I want to make myself differentiated." In that case, again, IaaS and PaaS, coupled alongside a SaaS environment, you can build your specific differentiation. And then you leave the ERP pristine, so it can be upgraded constantly with no impact to your specific sidebar applications. So, I would say that the best clouds in the world, I mean, I think you're going to see a lot of the others are trying to, either SaaS providers trying to grow a PaaS, or maybe some of the IaaS players are trying to add SaaS. So, I think you're going to see this blending more and more because customers are asking for the flexibility For either or all three. But I will say that-- >> How can I get PaaS and SaaS-minus. >> Absolutely, I mean, what are you doing there? You're offering choice. There's not a question in my mind that Cisco is a huge customer of ours, they have a product that is one of their SaaS applications running Tetration on the Oracle Cloud. It actually doesn't run any Oracle. It's all cloud native applications. Natively built with a number of open source components. They run just IaaS. That's it, the Tetration product, and it runs fast. The Gen 2 cloud has a great architecture underneath it, flattened fast network. By far, for us, we feel like we really gotten into the guts of IaaS and made it run more efficiently. Other customers say, "I've got a huge Oracle footprint in the data center, help me get it out." So up to the cloud that they go, and they say I don't want just IaaS because that means I'm writing all the automation, like I have to manage all the patching. And this is where for us platform services really help because we give them the automation at scale, which allows their people to do other things, that may be more impactful for the business. >> I want to ask you about, the automation piece. And you guys have made the statement that your Gen 2 cloud is fundamentally different than how other clouds work, Gen 1 clouds. And the Gen 1 clouds which are evolving, the hyper scalars are evolving, but how is Oracle's Gen 2 cloud fundamentally different? >> Yeah. I think that one of the most basic elements of the cloud itself was that for us, we had to start with the security and the network. So if you imagine that those two components really, A, could dictate speed and performance, plus doing it in a secure fashion. The two things that you'll see an awful lot about for us, is that we've embedded not only security at every level. But we've even separated off what we call, every cloud, you have a number of compute instances and then you have storage, right? In the middle, you have a network. However, to become a cloud, and to offer the elastic scale and the multiple sharing of resources, you have to have something called a control plane. What we've done is we've actually extracted the control plane out into its own separate instance of a running machine. Other clouds actually have the control plane inside of there running compute cores. Now, what does that do? Well, the fact of the matter is, we assume that the control plane and the network should be completely separate from what you run on your cloud. So if you run a virtual machine, or if you run a bare metal instance, there's no Oracle software running on it. We actually don't trust customers, and we actually tell the customers don't trust us, either. So by separating out the control plane, and all the code that runs that environment off of the running machine, you get more cores meaning like you have-- There's no Oracle tax for running this environment. It's a separate conmputer for each one, the control plane. Number two, it's more secure. We actually don't have any running code on that machine, if you had a bare metal instance. So therefore, there's no way for one machine in the cloud to infect another machine if the control plane was compromised. The second part of the network, the guys who have been building this cloud, Don Johnson, a lot of the guys came from other clouds before and they said, "yYou know the one thing we have to do is make a we call it Flattened Fast Clause Network that really is never oversubscribed." So you'll constantly see and people always ask me same question, "Dave, why is the performance faster if its the same VM shape? "Like I don't understand why it's going faster, like high performance computing." And the reason again a lot of times is the network itself is that it's just not oversubscribed. It's constantly flowing all the data, there's no such thing as congestion on the network, which can happen. The last part, we actually added 52 terabytes of local storage to every one of those compute nodes. So therefore, there's a possibility you don't even have to traverse the network to do some really serious work on the local machine. So you add these together, the idea is make the network incredibly fast, separate out the control plane and run the software and security layer separate from the entire node where all the customers work is being done. Number three, give the customers more compute, by obviously having us offload it to a separate machine. And the last thing is put local storage and everything is what's called NVMe storage. Whether it's local or remote, everything's NVMe, though the IOPS we get are really off the charts. And again, it shows up in our benchmarks. >> Yeah, so you're getting, atomic access to memory. But in your control plane, you describe that control plane that's running. Sorry to geek out everybody. But I'm kind of curious, you know. You got me started, Chris. So that's control-- >> Yeah, that's good. >> the Oracle cloud or runs. Where's it live? >> It's essentially separated from the compute node. We actually have it in between, there's a compute node that all the work is done from the customer, could be on like a Kubernetes container or VM, whatever it might be. The control plane literally is separate. And it lives right next to the actual compute node the customer is using. So it's actually embedded on a SmartNIC, it's a completely different cores. It's a different chipset, different memory structure, everything. And it does two things. It helps us control what happens up in the customers compute nodes in VMs. And it also helps us virtualize the network down as well. So it literally, the control plane is separate and distinct. It's essentially a couple SmartNICS. >> And then how does Autonomous fit into this whole architecture? I'm speaking by the way for that description, I mean, it's nuanced, but it's important. I'm sure you having this conversation with a lot of cloud architects and chief technologists, they want to know this stuff, and they want to know how it works. And then, obviously, we'll talk about what the business impact is. But talk about Autonomous and where that fit. >> Yeah, so as Larry says that there are two products that really dictate the future of Oracle and our success with our customers. Number one is ERP-SaaS. The second one is Autonomous Database. So the Autonomous Database, what we've done is really taken a look at all the runtime operations of an Oracle database. So tuning, patching, securing all these different features, and what we've done is taken the best of the Oracle database, the best of something called Exadata which we run on the cloud, which really helps a lot of our customers. And then we've wrapped it with a set of automation and security tools to help it really manage itself, tune itself, patch itself, scale up and down, independent between compute and storage. So, why that's important though, is that really our goal is to help people run the Oracle database as they have for years but with far less effort, and then even not only far less effort, hopefully, a machine plus man, out of the equation we always talk about is man plus machine is greater than man alone. So being assisted by artificial intelligence and machine learning to perform those database operations, we should provide a better service to our customers with far less costs. >> Yeah, the greatest chess player in the world is a combination of man and machine, you know that? >> You know what? It makes sense. It makes sense because, there's a number of things that we can do as humans that are just too difficult to program. And then there are other things where machines are just phenomenal, right? I mean, there's no-- Think of Google Maps, you ask it wherever you want to go. And it'll tell you in a fraction of a second, not only the best route, but based on traffic from maybe the last couple of years. right now, we don't have autonomous cars, right, that are allowed to at least drive fully autonomous yet, it's coming. But in the meantime, a human could really work through a lot of different scenarios it was hard to find a way to do that in autonomous driving. So I do believe that it's going to be a great combination. Our hope and goal is that the people who have been running Oracle databases, how can we help them do it with far less effort and maybe spend more time on what the data can do for the organization, right? Improve customer experience, etc. Versus maybe like, how do I spin up a table? One of our customers is a huge consumer. They said, "our goal is how do we reduce the time to first table?" Meaning someone in the business just came up with an idea? How do I reduce the time to first table. For some of our customers, it can take months. I mean, if you were going to put in a new server, find a place in the data center, stand up a database, make the security controls, right and etc. With the autonomous database, I could spin one up right here, for us and, and we could start using it and it would be secure, which is utmost and paramount. It would scale up and down, meaning like just based on workload, as I load data into it, it would tune itself, it would help us with the idea of running more efficiently, which means less cores, which means also less cost. And then the constant security patches that may come up because of different threats or new features. It would do that potentially on its own if you allow it. Obviously some people want to watch you know what exactly it's going to do first. Do regression testing. But it's an exciting product because I've been working with the Oracle database for about 20 years now. And to see it run in this manner, it's just phenomenal. And I think that's the thing, a lot of the database teams have seen. Pretty amazing work. >> So I love this conversation. It's hardcore computer science, architecture, engineering. But now let's end with by up leveling this. We've been talking, a lot about Oracle Consulting. So let's talk about the business impact. So you go into customers, you talk to the cloud architects, the chief technologist, you pass that test. Now you got to deliver the business impact. Where does Oracle consulting fit with regard to that, and maybe you could talk about sort of where you guys want to take this thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so, the cloud is great set of technologies, but where Oracle consulting is really helping us deliver is in the outcome. One of the things I think that's been fantastic working with the Oracle consulting team is that cloud is new. For a lot of customers who've been running these environments for a number of years, there's always some fear and a little bit of trepidation saying, "How do I learn this new cloud?" I mean, the workloads, we're talking about deeper, like tier zero, tier one, tier two, and all the way up to Dev and Test and DR, Oracle Consulting does really, a couple of things in particular, number one, they start with the end in mind. And number two, that they start to do is they really help implement these systems. And, there's a lot of different assurances that we have that we're going to get it done on time, and better be under budget, 'cause ultimately, again, that's something that's really paramount for us. And then the third part of it a lot of it a lot of times is run books, right? We actually don't want to just live at our customers environments. We want to help them understand how to run this new system. So training and change management. A lot of times Oracle Consulting is helping with run books. We usually will, after doing it the first time, we'll sit back and let the customer do it the next few times, and essentially help them through the process. And our goal at that point is to leave, only if the customer wants us to but ultimately, our goal is to implement it, get it to go live on time, and then help the customer learn this journey to the cloud. And without them, frankly, I think these systems are sometimes too complex and difficult to do on your own, maybe the first time especially because like I say, they're closing the books, they might be running your entire supply chain. They run your entire HR system or whatever they might be. Too important to leave to chance. So they really help us with helping the customer become live and become very competent and skilled, because they can do it themselves. >> But Chris, we've covered the gamut. We're talking about, architecture, went to NVMe. We're talking about the business impact, all of your automation, run books, loved it. Loved the conversation, but to leave it right there but thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your insights, great stuff. >> Absolutely, thanks Dave, and thank you for having me on. >> All right, you're welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We are covering the Oracle North America Consulting transformation and its rebirth in this digital event. Keep it right there. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back. You're watching theCUBE, we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only the industry, but the transformation of Oracle Consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here Group VP of Cloud Advisory and GM of Oracle Elevate, which is a partnership that Oracle announced last Open World with Deloitte, and Don Schmidt is here, who is a Managing Director at Deloitte. Gents, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here Dave. >> So, Don I want to start with you. Transformation, right? Everybody talks about that, there's a lot of trends going on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >> Yeah I think there's an inflection point right now. Everybody have been saying they want to get out their data centers. The leaves haven't really been taking place, right? They've been kind of moving in small bits. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale, of getting out of your data centers, is now here. So, we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost efficiently, and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day to day business? >> So data centers is just not an efficient use of capital for your customers. >> No, no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster, cheaper, and get on to innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware, floor space, power cooling, those fun things. >> Well you guys are spending money on data centers though right? So this is a good business for you all. >> Mike: We do it on behalf of other customers though. Right? >> Yeah and that's what's happening right? My customers, they essentially want to take all this IT labor cost and shift it into R&D get them on your backs and your backs right? Is this that what you see it? You know where are we in terms of that? I mean it started ten plus years ago but it really has started to uptake right? What's driving that? What's the catalyst there? >> You know so from my perspective, I've been doing this a while. A lot of it is either organizations are driving costs or what you're also seeing is IT organizations are no longer the utility in the organization and taking the orders, you're using them to try to top line value, but to do that, they actually have to take their business and change the model of it, so they can take that money and reinvest it in what Don had talked about, investment or continuous investment. So you're starting to hit those inflection points, you know years ago a CIO would be in his job for 15, 20 years, the average tenure for a CIO is you know three to five years on average, and it's because if they're not driving innovation or driving top line growth with an organization, organizations are now starting to flip that around so you're seeing a huge inflection point, with organizations really looking for IT not to be just a back office entity anymore, to truly drive them they have to transform that back to Don's point, because that inflection point, this large data center move over is a good sort of lever to kind of get them and really use it as opportunity to transform their organization. >> And the transformations are occurring, you know within industries, but at different pace. I mean some industries have transformed radically. You think about Ride shares, and digital music and the like others are taking more time, financial services, health care, they're riskier businesses, and you know there's more government in public policy so what do you see in terms of the catalyst for transformation and is there any kind of discernible, industry variance? >> Yeah there definitely is and he's mentioned some of the more start-up kind of organizations where Cloud was right for them at the early stages. These other organizations that have built these large application stacks and have been there for years, it's scary for them to say, "Let me take this big set of equipment and applications, and move it to the Cloud." It's a big effort. Starting from scratch with start-ups, that's a little different story right? So we are kind of at a different point, there are different stages within different industries, some are faster adopters than some of the others with government regulations and some of the technologies that have to kind of catch up to be able to provide those services. >> Do people generally want to take their sort of mission-critical apps which are largely running often on Oracle infrastructure database, they want to move that into the Cloud but do they want to bring that sort of Cloud-operating model to their on-prem and maybe reduce their overall data center footprint but preserve some of that? What are you guys seeing? >> So, two different probably viewpoints. So my viewpoint is, depends on the organization, depends on the regulatory they have, and there's a lot of factors in there. But I would say, as a standard organization would take their journey, mission-critical systems are historically not the first one in there. 'Cause back to the point of changing the operating model the way you want to do business and be effective, you don't go with the crown jewels first, historically, take some other work loads learn how to work in that operating model, how you're doing things change and then you evolve some of those pieces over time. There are organizations that basically, pull the band-aid off and just go right into it, right? But a lot of large enterprises sort of that's why we talk about Cloud as a journey, right? You take this journey you have to make the journey based on what's going on back what Don had talked about the regulatory requirements in history are the right controls in place for what they need at that point. If not, okay so what's an interim step to the journey? Could you bring Cloud in those capabilities on-prem and then have some of the other stuff off-prem? So it's really situational dependent, and we actually walk a customer through and now Don's organization does the same thing. You walk them through what makes best for their journey for where they're at in the industry and what they have today and what they're trying to achieve. >> So Don Deloitte doesn't just do IT it does business transformation, right? So it's like a chicken and egg, let's say that what comes first? The chicken or the egg? The IT transformation or the business transformation? >> I don't think it's an or it's an and. So have the total conversation of where's your Cloud journey for your entire enterprise, and then decide how that's going to be played out in both in IT and in the business. How the joint conversation from an enterprise perspective. >> So let's talk a little bit about the partnership, to your very well known brands, you guys get together, so what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on that front. >> Yeah you know so from Oracle standpoint, Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologists, right? And back to the point of what we're trying to do with the Cloud and trying to do larger transformation, those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA, but if you look at it as why would you try to recreate this situation? Why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like Deloitte? Right? And so the impetus of that is, how do we take the technology with the business transformation, pull that together and back of the one plus one equals three for my customer, right? That's what they really want, so how do we actually scale that into really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move a couple application work loads. Our job, what we're really charted to do is make huge transformational leaps for our customers, using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So this it's a hug paradigm for us to kind of do this. >> And in our collaboration with the two organizations just the opposite from what Mike just said right? So Deloitte wasn't really big in big IT, right? Business led transformations kind of what Deloitte's been known for, along with our cyber practice, and so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >> Right, so take me through what transformation engagement looks like. They don't call you up and say, "Hey want to buy me some transformation." Right? Where does it start? Who are the stake holders? How long does it take? I mean it could be multi year, I presume and never ends maybe but you want to get to business value first, so let's shorten up the time frame. Take me through typical engagement. Typical I know in quotes. And then, how long like take me through the point at which you start to get business value. What do I got to do to get there? >> Yeah so we see two different spectrums on a transformation. And it really aligns to what are your objectives. Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on archaic dying hardware? Or do you want to take that, take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? But on either one of those we'll come in and we'll do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the age or the health of your data center is, help the customers through, business case, TCO, how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them, crave look our wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their data center. In parallel we're going to be doing as Mike was saying running all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their Cloud center of excellence. Getting Cloud operations into the organization is a different skill set for IT to have, right? They're going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of Cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel and then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can prove how the model works. Move those into the Cloud, and then what we want to do is we want to scale at it, its large pace, right? Get the IT savings, get the cost cuts out of the organization. >> So I cleaned out my barn this weekend and the first thing I did is I got a dumpster. So I could throw some stuff out. So, is that part of the equation like getting rid of stuff? Is that part of the assessment? You know what's not delivering value that you can live without? >> Absolutely right, so there is kind of things that are just going to not go to Cloud, right? No longer need it, it's just laying around in the side, just get rid of that and move forward. >> And earlier one you'll see there's models depends you hear there's the 6 Rs, the 7 Rs and it's really the journey to Cloud it's almost you look at your status is it going to get re-platformed, is it going to get re-hosted, is it going to get retired back to your point. And if it's had something that's an appliance, right? That's something you're not going to put out to Cloud. Okay keep that in your data center. I have something that's so old, I hope it dies in the next two years. Don't spend the money move it to Cloud, let it die over the next two years. So back to the point, you kind of take this discovery and you go, where do things fall on the spectrum? And each one actually has a destination and a lever that you're going to pull, right? And if you're going to retire things okay so out of the business case, those are status quo for the next you're going to kill it over three years, right? Re-platform re-host means different things that they're going to take, right? Whether they do just to infrastructure or take advantage of PaaS or they'll go, "I'm going to blow up the entire application who directed to Cloud native services." Right? As you go through that journey you kind of map that out for them through the discovery process, and that tells you how much value you're going to get based on what you're going to do. >> But boy, this starts to get deep I mean as you used to peel the onions. So you just described what I would think of as wave 1. And then as you keep peeling you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have, reorganizations that's really where you guys have expertise, right? >> Well combined right? 'Cause yeah we're on the organizational side of things, but yeah there's a lot of things you have to sort through, right? And that's where the combined Elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools that will help make sure we get this right, right? Deloitte has a product called Atadata, Oracle has a product called Soar, they married together properly into this transformational journey, to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right as well. >> Well you also have a lot of different stake holders, than you know, let's face it P&L Managers are going to try to hold on to their P&L. So you've got to bring in the senior executives. Clearly the CIOs involved is the CFO, CSWE. Who are the stake holders that you bring together in the room to kick this thing off? >> Depends on the message and depends on the outcome right? So if it's I need to get out of my data center, my data center strategy, historically the CIO. If it's there's an overall cost reduction and I want to re-implement my cost into innovating the business, sometimes that starts the CEO, CFO levels, right? >> Dave: Sure. >> So depends on that one but it is absolutely, back to your point of, the people want to hold their P&L huggers or kind of hold the cost or whatever. And one of the things, if you're not having the right conversations with people at the right level, the analogy that I've used for years is sometimes you're talking to a turkey about thanksgiving, right? So if you're trying to actually help transform and the entity is feeling that they're impacted by that negatively, even though there's a senior direction, so working through the right levels the organization to make sure you're showing how you're enabling them, it's key it's part of this journey. Helping them understand the future and how it's valuable, 'cause otherwise you'll get people that push back, even though it's the right thing for the company. We've seen that time and time again. >> Well it's potentially a huge engagement, so do you guys have specific plays or campaigns that you know I can do to get started maybe do a little test case, any particular offerings that-- >> Mike: I think-- >> Do you want to talk about the campaigns? >> So ]s under the program of Elevate, we've got a couple of campaigns. So the biggest one we've been talking about is around the data center transformation, so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. The next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to Oracle's Cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market through to general put that in as well. Those are our three major campaigns. >> So data center transformation we hit it pretty hard. I'm sorry the third one was Cloud-- >> Analytics. >> Sorry analytics right okay which is kind of an instate that everybody wants to get to. The JDE migration, so you've got what, situations where people have just, the systems. >> And I would say it's actually more of a JDE modernization, alright? >> Okay. >> So you have an organization, right? They may have a JDE or JD Edwards instance that's really it's older, they're maybe on version nine or something like that, they don't want to go all the way to SaaS 'cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that, but they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of Cloud computing, right? IOT, Mobil, et cetera right? So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach together we work with customers depending where they're going and go hey great, you can actually modernize by taking up this version of JDE through an upgrade process, but that allows you then to move it over to Oracle Cloud infrastructure, which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services, the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get. There's a various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry points with the customer on the JDE modernization, we kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a deep JDE, and as well as Oracle Consulting, and we actually are going to market that together, matter of fact, we're even at conferences together, talking about our approaches here and our future. >> Okay. So that'll allow you to get to a Cloud PaaS layer that'll allow you to sort of modernize that and get out of the sort of technical debt that's built up. >> Where customers are not ready to maybe move their entire data center, right? This gets them on the journey, right? That's the important pieces. We want to get them on the Cloud journey. >> In the analytics campaign, so it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven, they want to be data driven, but they're not there yet. And so, their data's in silos and so I would imagine that that's all helping them understand where the data is, breaking down, busting down those silos and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that drives their, drives us from data to insights. Is that fair? >> Yeah fair. Yeah it's not just doing reporting and dashboards it's actually having KPI-driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR, finance, and supply chains. >> So the existing EDW for example would be fitter into that, but then you've got agile infrastructure and processes that you're putting in place, bringing in AI and machine intelligence. That's kind of the future state that you're in. >> And it also has, they look at the particular that's one of the things we like about the other stuff that Deloitte has done. They've actually done the investment of the processes back into those particular business units that they do and actually have KPI-driven ones it prebuilt configurations that actually adds value. These are the metrics that should be driving an HR organization. Here's the metrics that should be driving finance. So rather than doing better analytics, hey help me write my report better. No, we're going to help you transform the way you should be running your business from a business financial transformation, that's why the partnership with Deloitte. So it's really changing the game of true analytics, not better BI. >> Right okay, guys, two power houses. Thanks so much for explaining in The Cube and to our audience, appreciate it. (mumbling) >> Alright, thank you everybody for watching we'll be right back with our next guest you're watching The Cube, from Chicago. We'll be right back right after the short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Reporter: From Chicago, it's The Cube. Covering Oracle transformation date 2020. Brought to you by Oracle Consulting. >> Hi everybody, welcome back. You're watching theCUBE, we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise. This is a very special digital event and we're really covering the transformation not only the industry, but the transformation of Oracle Consulting and its rebirth. Mike Owens is here Group VP of Cloud Advisory and GM of Oracle Elevate, which is a partnership that Oracle announced last Open World with Deloitte, and Don Schmidt is here, who is a Managing Director at Deloitte. Gents, good to see you, welcome. >> Good to be here Dave. >> So, Don I want to start with you. Transformation, right? Everybody talks about that, there's a lot of trends going on in the industry. What do you guys see as the big gestalt transformation that's going on? >> Yeah I think there's an inflection point right now. Everybody have been saying they want to get out their data centers. The leaves haven't really been taking place, right? They've been kind of moving in small bits. We're now at the point where large transformation at scale, of getting out of your data centers, is now here. So, we are here to try to help our clients move faster. How can we do this more effectively, cost efficiently, and get them out of these data centers so they can move on with their day to day business? >> So data centers is just not an efficient use of capital for your customers. >> No, no there's lots of ways to do this a lot faster, cheaper, and get on to innovation. Spend your money there, not on hardware, floor space, power cooling, those fun things. >> Well you guys are spending money on data centers though right? So this is a good business for you all. >> Mike: We do it on behalf of other customers though. Right? >> Yeah and that's what's happening right? My customers, they essentially want to take all this IT labor cost and shift it into R&D get them on your backs and your backs right? Is this that what you see it? You know where are we in terms of that? I mean it started ten plus years ago but it really has started to uptake right? What's driving that? What's the catalyst there? >> You know so from my perspective, I've been doing this a while. A lot of it is either organizations are driving costs or what you're also seeing is IT organizations are no longer the utility in the organization and taking the orders, you're using them to try to top line value, but to do that, they actually have to take their business and change the model of it, so they can take that money and reinvest it in what Don had talked about, investment or continuous investment. So you're starting to hit those inflection points, you know years ago a CIO would be in his job for 15, 20 years, the average tenure for a CIO is you know three to five years on average, and it's because if they're not driving innovation or driving top line growth with an organization, organizations are now starting to flip that around so you're seeing a huge inflection point, with organizations really looking for IT not to be just a back office entity anymore, to truly drive them they have to transform that back to Don's point, because that inflection point, this large data center move over is a good sort of lever to kind of get them and really use it as opportunity to transform their organization. >> And the transformations are occurring, you know within industries, but at different pace. I mean some industries have transformed radically. You think about Ride shares, and digital music and the like others are taking more time, financial services, health care, they're riskier businesses, and you know there's more government in public policy so what do you see in terms of the catalyst for transformation and is there any kind of discernible, industry variance? >> Yeah there definitely is and he's mentioned some of the more start-up kind of organizations where Cloud was right for them at the early stages. These other organizations that have built these large application stacks and have been there for years, it's scary for them to say, "Let me take this big set of equipment and applications, and move it to the Cloud." It's a big effort. Starting from scratch with start-ups, that's a little different story right? So we are kind of at a different point, there are different stages within different industries, some are faster adopters than some of the others with government regulations and some of the technologies that have to kind of catch up to be able to provide those services. >> Do people generally want to take their sort of mission-critical apps which are largely running often on Oracle infrastructure database, they want to move that into the Cloud but do they want to bring that sort of Cloud-operating model to their on-prem and maybe reduce their overall data center footprint but preserve some of that? What are you guys seeing? >> So, two different probably viewpoints. So my viewpoint is, depends on the organization, depends on the regulatory they have, and there's a lot of factors in there. But I would say, as a standard organization would take their journey, mission-critical systems are historically not the first one in there. 'Cause back to the point of changing the operating model the way you want to do business and be effective, you don't go with the crown jewels first, historically, take some other work loads learn how to work in that operating model, how you're doing things change and then you evolve some of those pieces over time. There are organizations that basically, pull the band-aid off and just go right into it, right? But a lot of large enterprises sort of that's why we talk about Cloud as a journey, right? You take this journey you have to make the journey based on what's going on back what Don had talked about the regulatory requirements in history are the right controls in place for what they need at that point. If not, okay so what's an interim step to the journey? Could you bring Cloud in those capabilities on-prem and then have some of the other stuff off-prem? So it's really situational dependent, and we actually walk a customer through and now Don's organization does the same thing. You walk them through what makes best for their journey for where they're at in the industry and what they have today and what they're trying to achieve. >> So Don Deloitte doesn't just do IT it does business transformation, right? So it's like a chicken and egg, let's say that what comes first? The chicken or the egg? The IT transformation or the business transformation? >> I don't think it's an or it's an and. So have the total conversation of where's your Cloud journey for your entire enterprise, and then decide how that's going to be played out in both in IT and in the business. How the joint conversation from an enterprise perspective. >> So let's talk a little bit about the partnership, to your very well known brands, you guys get together, so what was the sort of impetus to get together? How's it going? Give us the update on that front. >> Yeah you know so from Oracle standpoint, Oracle has been really technology focused. It was really created by technologists, right? And back to the point of what we're trying to do with the Cloud and trying to do larger transformation, those aren't some of the skills that we have. We've been bringing in some of those skills in DNA, but if you look at it as why would you try to recreate this situation? Why would you not partner with an organization who does large business transformation like Deloitte? Right? And so the impetus of that is, how do we take the technology with the business transformation, pull that together and back of the one plus one equals three for my customer, right? That's what they really want, so how do we actually scale that into really big things and get big outcomes for our customers? Our partnership is not about trying to take a bunch of customers and move a couple application work loads. Our job, what we're really charted to do is make huge transformational leaps for our customers, using the combined capabilities of the two organizations. So this it's a hug paradigm for us to kind of do this. >> And in our collaboration with the two organizations just the opposite from what Mike just said right? So Deloitte wasn't really big in big IT, right? Business led transformations kind of what Deloitte's been known for, along with our cyber practice, and so we needed the deep skills of the technical experts. >> Right, so take me through what transformation engagement looks like. They don't call you up and say, "Hey want to buy me some transformation." Right? Where does it start? Who are the stake holders? How long does it take? I mean it could be multi year, I presume and never ends maybe but you want to get to business value first, so let's shorten up the time frame. Take me through typical engagement. Typical I know in quotes. And then, how long like take me through the point at which you start to get business value. What do I got to do to get there? >> Yeah so we see two different spectrums on a transformation. And it really aligns to what are your objectives. Do you just need to get out of the data center because you're on archaic dying hardware? Or do you want to take that, take your time and make a little bit more of a transformation journey? Or do you want to play somewhere in the middle of that spectrum? But on either one of those we'll come in and we'll do a discovery conversation. We'll understand what's in your data center, understand what the age or the health of your data center is, help the customers through, business case, TCO, how fast or how slow that journey needs to be for them, crave look our wave groups of how fast and we're going to sequence those over time to get out of their data center. In parallel we're going to be doing as Mike was saying running all the operational aspects. So while we're doing that discovery, we want to start standing up their Cloud center of excellence. Getting Cloud operations into the organization is a different skill set for IT to have, right? They're going to need to retrain themselves, retool themselves in the world of Cloud. So we kind of do that in parallel and then what we want to do is when we start a project, we want to start with a little POC or small little group of safe applications that we can prove how the model works. Move those into the Cloud, and then what we want to do is we want to scale at it, its large pace, right? Get the IT savings, get the cost cuts out of the organization. >> So I cleaned out my barn this weekend and the first thing I did is I got a dumpster. So I could throw some stuff out. So, is that part of the equation like getting rid of stuff? Is that part of the assessment? You know what's not delivering value that you can live without? >> Absolutely right, so there is kind of things that are just going to not go to Cloud, right? No longer need it, it's just laying around in the side, just get rid of that and move forward. >> And earlier one you'll see there's models depends you hear there's the 6 Rs, the 7 Rs and it's really the journey to Cloud it's almost you look at your status is it going to get re-platformed, is it going to get re-hosted, is it going to get retired back to your point. And if it's had something that's an appliance, right? That's something you're not going to put out to Cloud. Okay keep that in your data center. I have something that's so old, I hope it dies in the next two years. Don't spend the money move it to Cloud, let it die over the next two years. So back to the point, you kind of take this discovery and you go, where do things fall on the spectrum? And each one actually has a destination and a lever that you're going to pull, right? And if you're going to retire things okay so out of the business case, those are status quo for the next you're going to kill it over three years, right? Re-platform re-host means different things that they're going to take, right? Whether they do just to infrastructure or take advantage of PaaS or they'll go, "I'm going to blow up the entire application who directed to Cloud native services." Right? As you go through that journey you kind of map that out for them through the discovery process, and that tells you how much value you're going to get based on what you're going to do. >> But boy, this starts to get deep I mean as you used to peel the onions. So you just described what I would think of as wave 1. And then as you keep peeling you got the applications, you got the business process, you might have, reorganizations that's really where you guys have expertise, right? >> Well combined right? 'Cause yeah we're on the organizational side of things, but yeah there's a lot of things you have to sort through, right? And that's where the combined Elevate program really synergizes itself around the tools that we have. We both have tools that will help make sure we get this right, right? Deloitte has a product called Atadata, Oracle has a product called Soar, they married together properly into this transformational journey, to make sure we get the discovery done right and we get the migrations done right as well. >> Well you also have a lot of different stake holders, than you know, let's face it P&L Managers are going to try to hold on to their P&L. So you've got to bring in the senior executives. Clearly the CIOs involved is the CFO, CSWE. Who are the stake holders that you bring together in the room to kick this thing off? >> Depends on the message and depends on the outcome right? So if it's I need to get out of my data center, my data center strategy, historically the CIO. If it's there's an overall cost reduction and I want to re-implement my cost into innovating the business, sometimes that starts the CEO, CFO levels, right? >> Dave: Sure. >> So depends on that one but it is absolutely, back to your point of, the people want to hold their P&L huggers or kind of hold the cost or whatever. And one of the things, if you're not having the right conversations with people at the right level, the analogy that I've used for years is sometimes you're talking to a turkey about thanksgiving, right? So if you're trying to actually help transform and the entity is feeling that they're impacted by that negatively, even though there's a senior direction, so working through the right levels the organization to make sure you're showing how you're enabling them, it's key it's part of this journey. Helping them understand the future and how it's valuable, 'cause otherwise you'll get people that push back, even though it's the right thing for the company. We've seen that time and time again. >> Well it's potentially a huge engagement, so do you guys have specific plays or campaigns that you know I can do to get started maybe do a little test case, any particular offerings that-- >> Mike: I think-- >> Do you want to talk about the campaigns? >> So ]s under the program of Elevate, we've got a couple of campaigns. So the biggest one we've been talking about is around the data center transformation, so that's kind of the first campaign that we're working on together. The next one is around moving JD Edwards specific applications to Oracle's Cloud. And then the third one is around our analytics offering that Deloitte has and how we're going to market through to general put that in as well. Those are our three major campaigns. >> So data center transformation we hit it pretty hard. I'm sorry the third one was Cloud-- >> Analytics. >> Sorry analytics right okay which is kind of an instate that everybody wants to get to. The JDE migration, so you've got what, situations where people have just, the systems. >> And I would say it's actually more of a JDE modernization, alright? >> Okay. >> So you have an organization, right? They may have a JDE or JD Edwards instance that's really it's older, they're maybe on version nine or something like that, they don't want to go all the way to SaaS 'cause they can't simplify the business processes. They need to do that, but they also want to take advantage of the higher level capabilities of Cloud computing, right? IOT, Mobil, et cetera right? So as a modernization, one of the things we're doing is an approach together we work with customers depending where they're going and go hey great, you can actually modernize by taking up this version of JDE through an upgrade process, but that allows you then to move it over to Oracle Cloud infrastructure, which allows you to actually tap into all those platform services, the IOT and stuff like that to take to the next level. Then you can actually do the higher level analytics that sits on top of that. So it's really a journey where the customer wants to get. There's a various kind of four major phases that we can do or entry points with the customer on the JDE modernization, we kind of work them through. So that's a skill of some of the capabilities that Deloitte has as a deep JDE, and as well as Oracle Consulting, and we actually are going to market that together, matter of fact, we're even at conferences together, talking about our approaches here and our future. >> Okay. So that'll allow you to get to a Cloud PaaS layer that'll allow you to sort of modernize that and get out of the sort of technical debt that's built up. >> Where customers are not ready to maybe move their entire data center, right? This gets them on the journey, right? That's the important pieces. We want to get them on the Cloud journey. >> In the analytics campaign, so it seems to me that a lot of companies don't have their data driven, they want to be data driven, but they're not there yet. And so, their data's in silos and so I would imagine that that's all helping them understand where the data is, breaking down, busting down those silos and then actually putting in sort of an analytics approach that drives their, drives us from data to insights. Is that fair? >> Yeah fair. Yeah it's not just doing reporting and dashboards it's actually having KPI-driven insights into their information and their data within their organizations. And so Deloitte has some pre-configured applications for HR, finance, and supply chains. >> So the existing EDW for example would be fitter into that, but then you've got agile infrastructure and processes that you're putting in place, bringing in AI and machine intelligence. That's kind of the future state that you're in. >> And it also has, they look at the particular that's one of the things we like about the other stuff that Deloitte has done. They've actually done the investment of the processes back into those particular business units that they do and actually have KPI-driven ones it prebuilt configurations that actually adds value. These are the metrics that should be driving an HR organization. Here's the metrics that should be driving finance. So rather than doing better analytics, hey help me write my report better. No, we're going to help you transform the way you should be running your business from a business financial transformation, that's why the partnership with Deloitte. So it's really changing the game of true analytics, not better BI. >> Right okay, guys, two power houses. Thanks so much for explaining in The Cube and to our audience, appreciate it. (mumbling) >> Alright, thank you everybody for watching we'll be right back with our next guest you're watching The Cube, from Chicago. We'll be right back right after the short break. (upbeat music)

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hello and welcome back to the cube coverage here in San Francisco, the Moscone center for RSA Congress 2020 for all the coverage period for three days. I'm John, host of the cube. You know, as cybersecurity goes to the next level, as cloud computing goes, continues to go more enterprise, large scale AI and machine learning have become critical managing the data. We've got a great guest here from Intel, Kaz Borzynski, senior director of the AI price with Intel. Thanks for joining us. Oh thanks. So data is a huge, huge data problem when it comes down to cybersecurity, uh, and and generally across the enterprise. Now it's well known, well documented, but you're here giving a talk about machine learning privacy because everyone wants to know who the bad guys are. So do the bad guys deserve privacy? Okay, we'll get to that later. But first tell about your talk and give a talk here at RSA. >>We'll get into other stuff later. I gave a talk, so thanks for having me. I gave a talk on a whole suite of exciting new techniques known as privacy preserving machine learning. So this is a set of machine learning techniques that help people realize the promise of AI and machine learning. But we know that machine learning systems rely on underlying data to train. So how can you also respect the privacy and the security of the underlying data while still being able to train and use AI systems and just take it, where are you within the Intel sphere? Because Intel osseous surgery obviously chips and power to all the enterprises in large. Skip. How are you on the software side AI group? Explain where you are. And so I'm in the AI group at Intel, but I have the most fun job at Intel. I think so cause I work in the CTO office of the AI group, which means I get to think about more futuristic, you know, where is AI going? >>What are some of the major inflection points? One of these that we've been looking at for the last couple of years is this kind of collision course between the need for data to train machine learning systems to unlock all the power of AI, but still the need to keep data private. Yeah, and I think that's generally consistent with our editorial in our research, which is the confluence of cloud native, large scale cloud computing, multi-cloud and AI or machine learning, all kinds of coming together. Those are multigenerational technologies that are coming. So that's, this wave is big. That's right. And I think one thing that's kind of maybe underappreciated about machine learning, especially in production is it's almost always a multi-party interaction. So you'll have, let's say one party that owns data and other party may own a model. They're running a system on somebody else's hardware. So because of the nature of digital data, if you want to share things, you have to worry about what other parties may be doing with those data. >>Because you bring up a great point I want to get your reaction and thoughts on is that, is that it's multidisciplinary. Now as people aren't breaking into the field. I mean people are really excited about AI. I mean you talk to someone who's 12 years old, they see a Tesla, they see software, they see all these things, they see all this cool stuff. So machine learning, which powers AI is very enticing to anyone that's got kind of technical or nerdy background and social attracting a lot of young people. So it's not just getting a computer science degree. There's so much more to AI because you talk about why, what someone needs to be successful too. And to engage in the AI wave. You don't need to just be a code or you could be outside the scope because it's an integrated model or is it's very much, so my group at Intel is better, very heterogeneous. >>So what have got a, you know, kind of mathematicians, but I also have coders. I have, uh, an attorney who's a public policy expert. I have cryptographers. Uh, I think there's a number of ways to get involved in, in meaning my, my background is actually a neuroscience. So, um, it makes sense. Good. Stitch it all together. Yeah. Well, societal changes has to be the, the algorithm needs training they need to learn. So having the most diverse input seems to me to be a, a posture the industry is taking and what's, is that right? Is that the right way to think about it? How should we be thinking about how to make AI highly effective versus super scary? Right. Well, one of the efforts that we're making, part of my message here is that to make these systems better, generally more data helps, right? If you can expand the availability of data, that's always going to help machine learning systems. >>And so we're trying to unlock data silos that may exist across countries, across the organizations. So for example, you know, in healthcare you could have multiple hospitals that have patient data. If somehow they could pool all their data together, you would get much more effective models, much better patient outcomes, but for very good privacy reasons, they're not allowed to do that. So there's these interesting ideas like federated learning where you could somehow decentralize the machine learning process so that you can still respect privacy but get the statistical power. That's a double down on that for a second cause I want to explore that. I think this is the most important story that's not being talked about. It's nuance a little bit. Yeah. You know, healthcare, you had HIPAA, which was built for all the right reasons back then, but now when you start to get into much more of a cross pollination of data, you need to manage the benefit of why it existed with privacy. >>So encryption, homomorphic encryption for instance, data and use. Yes. Okay. When it's being used, not just in flight or being arrested becomes, now you have the three triads of data. Yes. This is now causing a new formula for encryption privacy. What are some of the state of the art mindset thinkings around how to make data open a usable but yet either secure, encrypted or protected. That's right. So it's kind of this paradox of how do I use the data but not actually get the data. You mentioned homomorphic encryption. So this is one of the most kind of leading edge techniques in this area where somehow you're able to, there are ways of doing math on the data while it stays encrypted and the answer that comes out, it's still encrypted and it's only the actual owner of the data who can reveal the answer. So it seems like magic, but with this capability you enable all kinds of new use cases that wouldn't be possible before where third parties can act on, you know, your sensitive data without ever being exposed to it in any way. >>So discovery and leverage of the days that what you're getting at in terms of the benefits, I mean use cases. So stay on that. They used cases of the, of this new idea. Yeah. Is discovery and usage. How would that work? Well, so when we talked about federated learning and pooling across hospitals, that's one set of techniques. Homomorphic encryption would be, for example, suppose that some AI system has already been trained, but I'd like to use it on sensitive data. How do I do that in such a way that the third party service isn't, you know, this what makes, I think machine learning different from different types of data. You know, security problems is that machine learning, you have to operate on the data. You're not just storing it, you're not just moving it around. So how do you, yeah, and this is a key thing. >>So I've got to ask you the question because one of the things that's a real interesting trade off these days is AI and machine learning is really can create great benefits, but also people just go the knee jerk reaction of, you know, Oh my God, it's scary. My privacy. So it's a frontline with Amazon, just facial recognition. Oh my God, it's evil. Yeah. So there's a lot of scared people that might not be informed. Yeah. How should companies invest in machine learning and AI from your opinion? On how should they think about the next 10 year trajectory starting today, thinking about how to invest, what's the right way to think about it, build a team. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that? Because, and this is the number one challenge right now. Yeah. Well I think the, uh, some of this scary issues that you mentioned, you know, there are legitimately scary. >>They're going to have to be resolved, not by companies, but probably, you know, by society and kind of our delegates. So lawmakers, regulators, part of what we're trying to do at the technical level is give society and regulators a, a more flexible set of tools around which you can slice and dice data privacy and so on, so that it's not just all or none. Right. I think that's kind of my main goal as a, as an organization. I think again, the, this idea of having a heterogeneous set of talents, you know, you're going to need policy experts and applied mathematicians and linguists and you know, neuroscientists. So diversity is a huge opportunity, very much so. Not just diversity of people, but diverse data, diverse data, diverse kind of mindsets, approaches to problems that are hard but very promising. If so. Okay. Let's flip to the other side of the spectrum, which is what should people not do? >>What does, what's a, what's a fail failure formula one dimensional thinking? What's a, what's an identification of something that's not, may not go in the right way? Well, you know, one, uh, distinguishing feature of the machine learning field, and it's kind of a cultural thing, but it's given it a lot of traction is it's fundamentally, it had been a very open culture. So there's a lot of, uh, sharing of methods. It's a very, uh, collaborative academic field. So I think within a company you want to kind of be re you want to be part of that culture too. So every company is going to have its secret sauce. It's things that it needs to keep proprietary, but it's very important for companies to engage this broader community of researchers. So you're saying, which I would want, maybe I'm what I would agree with, but I'll just say it. >>You can agree or disagree to be successful, you got to be open. If you're data-driven, you've gotta be open. That's right. There's more JD equals better data. That's why more data, more approaches to data, kind of more eyes on the problem. But you know, still you can definitely keep your proprietary, you know, it kind of forces organizations to think about what are our core strengths that we really want to keep proprietary. But then other things let's, you know, open. All right. So what's the coolest thing you've working on right now? What are some of the fun projects you guys are digging into and you've got a great job. Sounds like you're excited about it. I mean, AI I think is the most exciting thing. I mean I wish I could be 20 again in computer science or whatever field. Cause I think AI is more than a multigenerational things. >>Super exciting as a technical person. But what are you working on that you're excited about? So I'm very excited about taking some of these things like homomorphic encryption and making them much more available to developers, to data scientists because it's asking too much for a data scientist to also be a kind of a post quantum crypto expert. So we've written an open source package called H E transformer, H G for homomorphic encryption. It allows the data scientists to kind of do their normal data science and Python or whatever they're used to, but then they kind of flick a switch and suddenly their model is able to run on encrypted data. Can you just take a minute to explain why homomorphic encryption trend right now is really important? I mean, give a peek into the why because this is something that is now becoming much more real. >>Yeah. The data in use kind of philosophy. Why now? Why is it so important right now? Well, I think, uh, the, because of cloud in the, the power of cloud and the fact that you know, data are collected in one place and possibly processed in another place, you're going to have to, you know, your data are moving around and they're being operated on. So if you can know that, you know, as long as my data are moving around and people are operating on it but it's staying encrypted the whole time, you know, not just in transit, that gives a much higher level of comfort around and the applications are going to probably be onboarded. I mean you can almost imagine new applications will emerge from this application discovery cataloging and API integration points. I mean you can almost imagine the trust will go up and you can also kind of end up with these different business models where you have entities that compete in some spheres but they may decide to collaborate in other ways. >>So for example, banks could compete on, you know, lending and so on under normal activities. But in terms of fraud detection, they may decide, Hey, maybe we can make some Alliance where we cross check with each other as models on certain transactions, but I'm not actually giving you any transaction data. So that's maybe okay. Right. So that's a very powerful, it's really interesting. I mean I think the uh, the compute power has allowed, the overhead seems to be much more robust because people are working on this for in the eighties and nineties I remember. Yes. But it was just so expensive overhead while that's right. Yeah. So you bring up a great point here. So, and this is one of the areas where Intel is really pushing, my team is pushing these techniques have been around for 20 years. Initially they were maybe like 10 million times slower than real time. >>So people thought, okay, this is interesting, you know, mathematically, but not practical. There've been massive improvements just in the last two years where now things are running, you know, a hundred times slower than, than kind of un-encrypted math. But still that, that means that something that you know would take 50 milliseconds now takes five seconds. That's still not an unreasonable, you're my new friend. Now, my best friend on AI. Um, and I got a business to run and I'm going to ask you, what should I do? I really want to leverage machine learning and AI in my business. Okay, I'm investing in more tech. I got cloud and building my own software. How should I be investing? How do I build out a great machine learning AI scene and then ultimately capabilities? How should I do that? Okay, well I would start with a team that has a kind of a research mindset, not because you want them to come in and like write research papers, but the path from research into production is so incredibly short in AI. >>You know, you have things that are papers one year and they're going into production at Google search and within a year. So you kind of need that research mindset. I think another thing is that you want to, uh, you're gonna, you're going to require a very close collaboration between this data science team and your CIO and kind of, you know, systems. And a lot of the challenges around AI are not just coming up with the model, but how do you actually scale it up and you know, go to production with it and interesting about the research. I totally agree with you. I think, you know, you can almost call that product management kind of new fangled Prague product management because if it's applied research, you kind of have your eye on a market generally, but you're not making hardcore product decisions. You're researching it, you're writing it so that you got to, got to do the homework, you know, dream it before you can build it. >>Well, I'm just saying that the field is moving so fast that you're going to need on your team, uh, people who can kind of consume the latest papers. Oh, you're saying consume the research as well. Yeah, I mean if they can contribute, that's great too. I mean, I think this is this kind of open culture where, you know, people consume, they find some improvement. They can then publish it at the next year's conference. It's just been this incredibly healthy eco software. Acceleration's a big part of the cloud. Awesome. Well I really appreciate your insight. This is great topic. I could go for an hour. One of my favorite things. I love the homophobic uh, encryption. I think that's going to be a game changer. I think we're going to start to see some interesting discoveries there. Uh, give a quick plug for Intel. What are you working on now? >>What are you looking to do? What's your plans, highs hiring, doing more research, what's going on? Well, so we think that this intersection of privacy and AI is kind of at the core of, of Intel's data centric mission. So we're trying to figure out, you know, whatever it takes to enable the community, whether it's, you know, uh, optimize software libraries. It could be custom Silicon, it could be even services where, you know, we really want to listen to customers, figure out what they need. Funding. Moore's law is always going to be around the next wave is going to have more compute. It's never going away. More storage, more data. It's just gets better and better. Yeah. Thanks for coming on Catherine. Thanks for having can we have Intel inside the cube breaking down the future of AI. Really exciting stuff on the technology front security day. That's all going to happen at large scale. Of course, it's the cube bringing you all the data here at RSA. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I F s. Hi, buddy. Welcome to Boston. You're watching the cubes coverage of I s s World in the Heinz Auditorium in Boston. I'm Day Volonte with my co host, Paul Gill and Paul. This is the the largest enterprise resource planning software company that our audience probably has never heard of. This is our second year covering I f s World. Last year was in Atlanta. They moved to Boston. I f s is a Swedish based company. They do about $600 million in annual revenue, about 3700 employees. And interestingly, they have a development center in Sri Lanka, of all places. Which is kind of was war torn for the last 15 years or so, but nonetheless, evidently, a lot of talent and beautiful views, but so welcome. >>Thank you, Dave. I have to admit, before our coverage last year, I had never even heard of this company been around this industry for more than 30 years. Never heard of this company. They've got 10,000 customers. They've got a full house next door in the keynote and very enthusiastic group. This is a focus company. It's a company that has a lot of ah ah, vision about where wants to go some impressive vision documents and really a company that I think it's coming out of the shadows in the U. S. And it will be a force to be reckoned with. >>So I should say they were founded in the in the mid 19 eighties, and then it kind of re architected their whole platform around Client server. You remember the component move? It was a sort of big trends in the in the nineties. In the mid nineties opened up offices in the United States. We're gonna talk to the head of North America later, and that's one of the big growth areas that growing at about three. They claim to be growing at three x the overall market rate, which is a good benchmark. They're really their focus is really three areas e r. P asset management software and field service management, and they talk about deep functionality. So, for instance, they compete with Oracle ASAP. Certainly Microsoft and in four company we've covered in four talks a lot about the last mile functionality. That's not terminology that I f s uses, but they do similar types of things. I'll give you some examples because, okay, what's last mile? Functionality? Things like, um, detailed invoicing integration, contract management. Very narrow search results on things like I just want to search for a refurbished parts so they have functionality to allow you to do that. Chain. A custom e custody chain of custody for handling dangerous toxic chemicals. Certain modules to handle FDA compliance. A real kind of nitty gritty stuff to help companies avoid custom modifications in certain industries. Energy, construction, aerospace and defense is a big area for that. For them, a CZ well as manufacturing, >>there's a segment of the e r P market that often is under uh is under seeing. There's a lot of these companies that started out in niches Peoples off being a famous example, starting out on a niche of the market and then growing into other areas. And this company continues to be very focused even after 35 years, as you mentioned, just energy aerospace, a few construction, a few basic industries that they serve serve them at a very deep level focused on the mid market primarily, but they have a new positioning this year. They're calling the challengers for the challengers, which I like. It's a it's a message that I think resonates. It's easy to understand there position their customers is being the companies that are going to challenge the big guys in their industries and this time of digital transformation and disruption. You know, that's what it's all about. I think it's a great message of bringing out this year. >>Of course I like it because the Cube is a challenger, right? Okay, even though we're number one of the segments that we cover, we started out as a sort of a challenger. Interestingly, I f s and the gardener Magic Corners actually, leader and Field Service Management. They made an acquisition that they announced today of a company called Asked. He asked, U S he is a pink sheet OTC company. I mean, they're very small is a tuck in acquisition that maybe they had a They had a sub $20 million market cap. They probably do 25 $30 million in revenue. Um, Darren rules. The CEO said that this place is them is the leader in field service management, which is interesting. We're gonna ask him about that to your other point. You look around the ecosystem here that they have 400 partners. I was surprised last night. I came early to sort of walk around the hall floor. You see large companies here like Accenture. Um and I'm surprised. I mean, I remember the early days when we did the service. Now conferences 2013 or so you didn't see accent. You're Delloye E Y p W c. Now you see them at the service now event here that you see them? I mean, and I talked to essential last night. They said, Yeah, well, we actually do a lot of business in Europe, particularly in the Scandinavian region, and we want to grow the business in the U. S. >>Europe tends to be kind of a blind spot for us cos they don't see the size of the European market, all the activities where some of the great e. R. P. Innovation has come out of Europe. This company, as you mentioned growing three times the rate of the market, they have a ah focus on your very tight with those customers that they serve and they understand them very well. And this is a you can see why it's centuries is is serving this market because, you know they're simply following the money. There's only so much growth left in the S a P market in the Oracle market. But as the CEO Darren said this morning, Ah, half of their revenues last year were from net new customers. So that's that's a great metric. That indicates that there's a lot of new business for these partners to pursue. >>Well, I think there's there's some fatigue, obviously, for big, long multi year s AP integrations, you're also seeing, you know, at the macro we work with Enterprise Technology Research and we have access to their data set. One of the things that we're seeing is a slowdown in the macro. Clearly, buyers are planning to spend less on I T in the second half of 2019 than they did in the first half of 2019 and they expect to spend less in Q four than they expected to in July. So things are clearly softening at the macro level. They're reverting back to pre 2018 levels but it's not falling off a cliff. One of the things that I've talked to e t. R about the premise we put forth love to get your thoughts is essentially we started digital transformation projects, Let's say in earnest in 2016 2017 doing a lot of pilots started kind of pre production in 2018. And during that time, what people were doing is they were had a lot of redundancy. They would maintain the legacy systems and they were experimenting with disruptive technologies. You saw, obviously a lot of you. I path a lot of snowflake and other sort of disruptive technology. Certainly an infrastructure. Pure storage was the beneficiary of that. So you had this sort of dual strategy. We had redundancy of legacy systems, and then the new stuff. What's happening now is, is the theory is that we're going into production. Would digital transformation projects and where were killing the legacy stuff? Okay, we're ready to cut over >>to a new land on that anymore, >>right? We're not going to spend them anymore. Dial that down. Number one. Number two is we're not just gonna spray and pray on all new tech Blockchain a i rp et cetera. We're gonna now focus on those areas that we think are going to drive business value. So both the incumbents and the disruptors are getting somewhat affected by that. That slowdown in that narrowing of the focused. And so I think that's really what's happening. And we're gonna, I think, have to absorb that for a year or so before we start to see new wave of spending. >>There's been a lot of spending on I t over the last three years. As you say, driven by this need, this transition that's going on now we're being going to see some of those legacy systems turned off. The more important thing I have to look at, I think the overall spending is where is that money being spent is being spent on on servers or is it being spent on cloud service is, and I think you would see a fairly dramatic shift going on. They're so the overall, the macro. I think it's still healthy for I t. There's still a lot of spending going on, but it's shifting to a new area there. They're killing off some of that redundancy. >>Well, the TR data shows couple things. There's no question that server and storage spending is has been declining and attenuating for a number of quarters now. And there's been a shift going on from that. Core infrastructure, obviously, into Cloud Cloud continues its steady march in terms of taking over market share. Other areas of bright spots security is clearly one. You're seeing a lot of spending in an analytics, especially new analytics. I mentioned Snowflake before we're disrupting kind of terror Data's traditional legacy enterprise data warehouse market. The R P. A market is also very hot. You AI path is a company that continues to extend beyond its its peers, although I have to say automation anywhere looks very strong. Blue Prison looks very strong. Cloudera interestingly used to be the darling is hitting sort of all time lows in the E. T R database, which is, by the way, that one of the best data sets I've ever seen on on spending enterprise software is actually still pretty strong. Particularly, uh, you know, workday look strong. Sales force still looks pretty strong. Splunk Because of the security uplift, it still looks pretty strong. I have a lot of data on I f s Like you said, they don't really show up in the e t R survey base. Um, but I would expect, with kind of growth, we're seeing $600 million. Company hopes to be a $1,000,000,000 by 2022 2021. I would think they're going to start showing up in the spending >>service well again in Europe. They may be They may be more dominant player than we see in the US. As I said, I really had not even heard of the company before last year, which was surprising for a company with 10,000 customers. Again, they're focused on the mid market in the mid market tends to fly a bit under the radar. Everyone thinks about what's happening in the enterprise is a huge opportunity out there. Many more mid market companies and there are enterprises. And that's a that's been historically a fertile ground for e. R. P. Companies to launch. You know J. D. Edwards came out of the mid market thes are companies that may end up being acquired by the Giants, but they build up a very healthy base of customers, sort of under the radar. >>Well, the other point I wanted to make I kind of started to about the digital transformation is, as they say, people are getting sort of sick of the big, long, ASAP complicated implementations. As small companies become midsize companies and larger midsize companies, they they look toward an enterprise resource planning, type of, of platform. And they're probably saying, All right, wait. I've got some choices here. I could go with an an I F. S, you know, or maybe another alternative. T s a p. You know, A S A P is maybe maybe the safe bet. Although, you know, it looks like i f s is got when you look around at the customers, they have has some real traction, obviously a lot of references, no question about it. One of things they've been digging for saw this gardener doing them for a P I integrations. Well, they've announced some major AP I integrations. We're gonna talk to them about that and poke it that a little bit and see if that will So to solve that criticism, that what Gardner calls caution, you know, let's see how real that is in talking to some of the customers will be talkinto the executives on members of the ecosystem. And obviously Paul and I will be giving our analysis as well. Final thoughts >>here. Just the challenge, I think, is you note for these midmarket focus Cos. Has been growing with their customers. And that's why you see of Lawson's in the JD Edwards of the World. Many of these these mid market companies eventually are acquired by the big E R P vendors. The customers eventually, if they grow, have to go through this transition. If they're going to go to Enterprise. The R P you know, they're forced into a couple of big choices. The opportunity and the challenge for F s is, can they grow those customers as they move into enterprise grade size? Can they grow them with with E. I. F s product line without having them forcing them to transition to something bigger? >>So a lot of here a lot of action here in Boston, we heard from several outside speakers. There was Linda Hill from Harvard. They had a digital transformation CEO panel, the CEO of soo say who will be on later uh PTC, a Conway, former PeopleSoft CEO was on there. And then, of course, Tony Hawk, which was a lot of fun, obviously a challenger. All right, so keep it right there, buddy. You're watching the Cube live from I F s World Conference at the Heinz in Boston right back, right after this short break.