>>And good afternoon. Welcome back here on the Cub as to continue our coverage at aws Reinvent 22, win the Venetian here in Las Vegas, day two, it's Wednesday. Thanks. Still rolling. Quite a along. We have another segment for you as part of the Global Startup program, which is under the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm joined now by Vink at Viera, who is the CEO and co-founder of R Set. And good to see you, >>Sir. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, >>No, a real pleasure. Looking forward to it. So first off, for some of, for yours who might not be familiar with Roxette, I know you've been on the cube a little bit, so you're, you're an alum, but, but why don't you set the stage a little bit for Rock set and you know, where you're engaged with in terms of, with aws? >>Definitely. Rock Set is a realtime analytics database that is built for the cloud. You know, we make realtime applications possible in the cloud. You know, realtime applications need high concurrency, low latency query processing data needs to be fresh, your analytic needs to be fast. And, you know, we built on aws and that's why we are here. We are very, very proud partners of aws. We are in the AWS Accelerate program, and also we are in the startup program of aws. We are strategic ISV partner. And so yeah, we make real time analytics possible without all the cost and complexity barriers that are usually associated with it. And very, very happy to be part of this movement from batch to real time that is happening in the world. >>Right. Which is certainly an exciting trend. Right. I know great news for you, you made news yesterday, had an announcement involved with the intel with aws, who wants to share some of that >>With us too? Definitely. So, you know, one, one question that I always ask people is like, you know, if you go perspective that I share is like, if you go ask a hundred people, do you want fast analytics on fresh data or slow analytics on stale data? You know, a hundred out of a hundred would say fast and fresh, right? Sure. So then the question is, why hasn't this happened already? Why is this still a new trend that is emerging as opposed to something that everybody's taking for granted? It really comes down to compute efficiency, right? I think, you know, at the end of the day, real time analytics was always in using, you know, technologies that are, let's say 10 years ago using let's say processors that were available 10 years ago to, you know, three cloud, you know, days. There was a lot of complexity barriers associated with realtime analytics and also a lot of cost and, and performance barriers associated with it. >>And so Rox said from the, you know, from the very beginning, has been obsessing about building the most compute efficient realtime database in the world. And, you know, AWS on one hand, you know, allows us to make a consumption based pricing model. So you only pay for what you use. Sure. And that shatters all the cost barriers. But in terms of computer efficiency, what we announced yesterday is the Intel's third generation Zon scalable processors, it's code named Intel Ice Lake. When we port it over Rock said to that architecture, taking advantage of some of the instructions sets that Intel has, we got an 84% performance boost, 84, 84, 84. >>It's, it's incredible, right? >>It's, it's an incredible charts, it's an incredible milestone. It reduces the barrier even more in terms of cost and, you know, and, and pushes the efficiency and sets a, a really new record for how efficient realtime, you know, data processing can be in the cloud. And, and it's very, very exciting news. And so we used to benchmark ourselves against some of our other, you know, realtime, you know, did up providers and we were already faster and now we've set a, a much, much higher bar for other people to follow. >>Yep. And, and so what is, or what was it about real time that, that, you know, was such a barrier because, and now you've got the speed of, of course, obviously, and maybe that's what it was, but I think cost is probably part of that too, right? That's all part of that equation. I mean, real time, so elusive. >>Yeah. So real time has this inherent pattern that your data never stops coming. And when your data never stops coming, and you can now actually do analytics on that. Now, initially people start with saying, oh, I just want a real time dashboard. And then very quickly they realize, well, the dashboard is actually in real time. I'm not gonna be staring at the 24 7. Can you tap on my shoulder when something is off, something needs to be looked at. So in which case you're constantly also asking the question, is everything okay? Is everything all right? Do I need to, is is that something that I need to be, you know, double clicking on and, and following up on? So essentially very quickly in real time analytics, what happens is your queries never stop. The questions that you're asking on your data never stops. And it's often a program asking the question to detect anomalies and things like that. >>And your data never stops coming. And so compute is running 24 7. If you look at traditional data warehouses and data lakes, they're not really optimized for these kinds of workloads. They're optimized to store massive volumes of data and in a storage efficient format. And when an analyst comes and asks a question to generate a report, you can spin up a whole bunch of compute, generate the report and tear it all down when you're done. Well, that is not compute running 24 7 to continuously, you know, you know, keep ingesting the data or continuously keep answering questions. So the compute efficiency that is needed is, is much, much, much higher. Right? And that is why, you know, Rox was born. So from the very beginning, we're only built, you know, for these use cases, we have a, an extremely powerful SQL engine that can give you full feature SQL analytics in a very, very compute efficient way in the cloud. >>Right. So, so let's talk about the leap that you've made, say in the last two years and, and, and what's been the spur of that? What has been allowed you to, to create this, you know, obviously a, a different kind of an array for your customers from which to choose, but, but what's been the spark you think >>We touched upon this a little earlier, right? This spark is really, you know, the world going from batch to real time. So if you look at mainstream adoption of technologies like Apache, Kafka and Confluent doing a really good job at that. In, in, in growing that community and, and use cases, now businesses are now acquiring business data, really important business data in real time. Now they want to operationalize it, right? So, you know, extract based static reports and bi you know, business intelligence is getting replaced in all modern enterprises with what we call operational intelligence, right? Don't tell me what happened last quarter and how to plan this quarter better. Tell me what's happening today, what's happening right now. And it's, it's your business operations using data to make day to day decisions better that either grows your top line, compresses your bottom line, eliminates risk that are inherently creeping up in your business. >>Sure. You know, eliminate potential churn from a customer or fraud, you know, deduction and, and getting on top of, you know, that, you know, a minute into this, into, into an outage as opposed to an hour into the outage. Right? And so essentially I think businesses are now realizing that operational intelligence and operational analytics really, you know, allows them to leverage data and especially real time data to make their, you know, to grow their businesses faster and more efficiently. And especially in this kind of macro environment that is, you know, more important to have better unit economics in your business than ever before. Sure. And so that is really, I think that is the real market movement happening. And, and we are here to just serve that market. We are making it much, much easier for companies that have already adopted, you know, streaming technologies like Kafka and, and, and knows Canis MSK and all these technologies. Now businesses are acquiring these data in real time now. They can also get realtime analytics on the other end of it. Sure. >>You know, you just touched on this and, and I'd like to hear your thoughts about this, about, about the economic environment because it does drive decisions, right? And it does motivate people to look for efficiencies and maybe costs, you know, right. Cutting costs. What are you seeing right now in terms of that, that kind of looming influence, right? That the economy can have in terms of driving decisions about where investments are being made and what expectations are in terms of delivering value, more value for the buck? >>Exactly. I think we see across the board, all of our customers come back and tell us, we don't want to manage data infrastructure and we don't want to do kind of DIY open source clusters. We don't wanna manage and scale and build giant data ops and DevOps teams to manage that, because that is not really, you know, in their business. You know, we have car rental companies want to be better at car rentals, we want airlines to be a better airline, and they don't, don't want their, you know, a massive investment in DevOps and data ops, which is not really their core business. And they really want to leverage, you know, you know, fully managed and, you know, cloud offerings like Rock said, you know, built on aws, massively scalable in the cloud with zero operational overhead, very, very easy to get started and scale. >>And so that completely removes all the operational overhead. And so they can invest the resources they have, the manpower, they have, the calories that they have on actually growing their businesses because that is what really gonna allow them to have better unit economics, right? So everybody that is on my payroll is helping me grow my top line or shrink my bottom line, eliminate risk in my business and, and, and, and churn and, and fraud and other, and eliminate all those risks that are inherent in my business. So, so that is where I think a lot of the investments going. So gone are the days where, you know, you're gonna have these in like five to 10% team managing a very hard to operate, you know, open source data management clusters on EC two nodes in, in AWS and, and kind of DIYing it their way because those 10 people, you know, if all they do is just operational maintenance of infrastructure, which is a means to an end, you're way better off, you know, using a cloud, you know, a bond in the cloud built for the cloud solution like rock and eliminate all that cost and, and replace that with an operationally much, much simpler, you know, system to op, you know, to to work with such as, such as rock. >>So that is really the big trend that we are seeing why, you know, not only real time is going more and more mainstream cloud native solutions or the real future even when it comes to real time because the complexity barrier needs to be shattered and only cloud native solutions can actually, >>You get the two Cs cost and complexity, right. That you, you need to address. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. You know, what is it about building trust with your, with your clients, with your partners? Because you, you're talking about this cloud environment that, that everyone is talking about, right? Not everyone's made that commitment. There are still some foot draggers out there. How are you going about establishing confidence and establishing trust and, and, and providing them with really concrete examples of the values and the benefits that you can provide, you know, with, with these opportunities? >>So, you know, I grew up, so there's a few ways to to, to answer this question. I'll, I'll, I'll come, I'll cover all the angles. So in, in order to establish trust, you have to create value. They, you know, your customer has to see that with you. They were able to solve the problem faster, better, cheaper, and they're able to, you know, have a, the business impact they were looking for, which is why they started the project in the first place. And so establishing that and proving that, I think there's no equivalence to that. And, you know, I grew up at, at, you know, at Facebook back in the day, you know, I was managing online data infrastructure, okay. For Facebook from 2007 and 2015. And internally we always had this kind of culture of all the product teams building on top of the infrastructure that my team was responsible for. >>And so they were not ever, there was never a, a customer vendor relationship internally within Facebook that we're all like, we're all part of the same team. We're partnering here to have you, you know, to help you have a successful product launch. There's a very similar DNA that, that exists in Rock said, when our customers work with us and they come to us and we are there to make them successful, our consumption based pricing model also forces us to say they're not gonna really use Rock said and consume more. I mean, we don't make money until they consume, right? And so their success is very much integral part of our, our success. And so that I think is one really important angle on, you know, give us a shot, come and do an evaluation, and we will work with you to build the most efficient way to solve your problem. >>And then when you succeed, we succeed. So that I think is a very important aspect. The second one is AWS partnership. You know, we are an ISV partner, you know, AWS a lot of the time. That really helps us establish trust. And a lot of the time, one of the, the, the people that they look up to, when a customer comes in saying, Hey, what is, who is Rock? Said? You know, who are your friends? Yeah. Who are your friends? And then, you know, and then the AWS will go like, oh, you know, we'll tell you, you know, all these other successful case studies that R has, you know, you know, built up on, you know, the world's largest insurance provider, Europe's largest insurance provider. We have customers like, you know, JetBlue Airlines to Klarna, which is a big bator company. And so, so all these case studies help and, and, and, and platform and partners like AWS helps us, helps you amplify that, that, you know, and, and, and, and, and give more credibility. And last but not least, compliance matters. You know, being Soto type two compliant is, is a really important part of establishing trust. We are hip hop compliant now so that, you know, we can, you know, pi I phi data handling that. And so I think that will continue to be a part, a big part of our focus in improving the security, you know, functionality and, and capabilities that R set has in the cloud, and also compliance and, and the set of com, you know, you know, standards that we are gonna be compliant against. >>Well, I'm glad you hit on the AWS too, cause I did wanna bring that up. I, I appreciate that and I know they appreciate the relationship as well. Thanks for the time here. It's been a pleasure. Awesome. Learning about Rockette and what you're up to. Thank you. >>You bet. >>It's a pleasure. Thank you. Vi ka. All right. You are watching the cube coverage here at AWS Reinvent 22. And on the cube, of course, the leader, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Narrator: Live, from San Diego, California, it's The Cube, covering Cisco Live, US, 2019. Brought to you by Cisco, and it's Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to San Diego, everybody, you're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Volante. I'm here with my co-host Stu Miniman, we're covering day two here of Cisco Live, 2019. Anand Oswal is here, he's the Senior Vice President of Enterprise Networking Engineering at Cisco, and John Apostolopoulos. The Italians and the Greeks, we have a lot in common. He is the VP and CTO of Enterprise Networking at Cisco. Gentlemen, welcome to The Cube. How did I do? >> You did awesome. >> Dave: Not too bad, right? Thank you. (chuckles) All right. Anand, let's start with you. You guys have had a bunch of news lately. You're really kind of re-thinking access to the network. >> Anand: Yeah. >> Can you explain what's behind that, to our audience? >> Yeah. If you think about it, the network is running more and more critical infrastructure. At the same time, it's increasing modern scale and complexity. What we expect, is that you always need wireless on. The workspace is on the move. You're working here, in your office, in the cafe, in the soccer field, everywhere. You want an uninterrupted, unplugged experience. For that, it's wireless first, it's cloud-driven, and it's data-optimized. So, we had to rethink how we do access. It's not just about your laptops and your phones on the wireless network, in the enterprise it's digital management systems. IOD devices, everything's connected wirelessly. And we need to rethink the access, on that part. >> So John, this obviously ties in to, you know, you hear all the buzz about 5G and WIFI 6. Can you explain the connection and, you know, what do we need to know about that? >> Okay, so 5G and WIFI 6 are two new wireless technologies, which are coming about now, and they're really awesome. So, WIFI 6 is the new version of WIFI. It's available today, and it's going to be available predominantely indoors. As we use WIFI indoors, in high-density environments, where we need a large database per square meter. And the new WIFI 6, the coverage indoors. 5G is going to be used predominately outdoors, in the cellular frequency. Replacing conventional 4G or LTE, and it'll provide you the broad coverage as you roam around, outdoors. And what happens though, is we need both. You need great coverage indoors, which WIFI 6 can provide, and you need great coverage outdoors, which 5G will provide. >> So, the 4G explosion kind of coincided with mobile-- >> Anand: Yep. >> Obviously, and that caused a huge social change-- >> Anand: Yep. >> And of course, social media took off. What should we expect with 5G, is it, you know, I know adoption is going to take a while, we'll talk about that, but it feels like it's more, sort of, B-to-B driven, but maybe not. Can you, sort of, give us your thoughts there. >> Well think about it, if you see WIFI 6 and 5G have actually been on some similar fundamental technology building blocks. You know, you've all been at a ball game. Or the Warriors game, like a few weeks ago, when they were winning. And, after a great play, you're trying to send that message, a video to your kid or something, and the WIFI is slow, latency. With WIFI 6, you won't have that problem. 'Cause WIFI 6 has four times the latency, sorry, four times the throughput and capacity as existing WIFI. Lower latency. And also, the battery life. You know, people say that batteries are the most important thing today, like in the Maslow Hierarchy Chart-- >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Three times the battery life, for WIFI 6 endpoints. So, you're going to see a lot of use cases where you have inter-working with WIFI 6 and 5G. WIFI 6 for indoors, and 5G for outdoor, and there'll be some small overlap, but the whole idea is that, how do you ensure that these two disparate access networks are talking to each other? Exchanging security, policy, and there is some visibility. >> Okay, so, well, first of all, you're a Warriors fan, right? >> Anand: Yeah, I am. >> Awesome, we want to see this series keep going. >> Game six, baby! >> That was really exciting. Now of course, I'm a Bruins fan, so we're on the plane the other night, and the JetBlue TV shut down, you know, so I immediately went to the mobile. >> Yeah. >> But it was a terrible experience, I was going crazy. Texting my friends, what's happening? >> Anand: Yeah. >> You're saying that won't happen-- >> Anand: Yeah. >> With 5G and WIFI 6? >> Anand: Yeah. Exactly. >> Oh, awesome. >> So, John, help connect for us, Enterprise Networking. We've been talking about the new re-architectures, you know, there's ACI, there's now intent-based networking, how does this play into the 5G and WIFI 6 discussion that we're having today? >> Okay, so one of the things that really matters to our customers, and to everybody, basically, is that they want the sort of end-to-end capability. They have some devices, they want to talk through applications, they want access to data, they want to talk with other people, or to IoT things. So you need this sort of end-to-end capability, wherever the ends are. So one of the things we've been working on for a number of years now, is first of all intent-based networking, which we announced two and a half years ago. And then, multi-domain, where we try to connect across the different domains. Okay, across campus, and WAN, and data center, all the way to the cloud, and across the service finder network. And to add security, as foundational across all of these. This is something that Dave Goeckeler and Chuck Robbins talked about at their keynote yesterday. And this is a huge area for us, 'cause we're going to make this single-orchestrated capability for our customers, to connect end-to-end, no matter where the end devices are. >> All right, so Anand, I have to believe that it's not the poor, you know, administrator, saying, oh my God, I have all these pieces and I need to manage them. (laughing) Is this where machine learning and AI come in to help me with all these disparate systems? >> Absolutely. Our goal is very simple. Any user, on any device, should have access to any application. Whether it's sitting in a data center, in a cloud, or multiple clouds. Or any network. You want that securely and seamlessly. You also want to make sure that the whole network is orchestrated, automated, and you have the right visibilities. Visibilities for ID, and visibility for business insights. Talk of AI and ML, what's happening is that as the network is growing in complexity and scale, the number of alerts are growing up the wazoo. So you are not able to figure it out. That's where the power of AI and machine learning comes. Think about it. In the industrial revolution, the industrial revolution made sure that you don't have the limitations of what humans can do, right? You had machines. And now, we want to make sure that businesses can benefit in the digital revolution. You're not limited by what I can pass through the logs and scrolls. I want to automate everything. And that's the power of AI and machine learning. >> Are there use cases where you would want some human augmentation, where you don't necessarily want the machine taking over for you, or do you see this as a fully-automated type of scenario? >> Yeah, so what happens is, first of all, visibility is really, really important. The operator of a network wants to have visibility, and they want end-to-end across all these domains. So the first thing we do is we apply a lot of machine learning, to take that immense amount of data, as Anand mentioned, and to translate it into pieces of information, to insights into what's happening. So then we can share to the user and they can have visibility in terms of what's happening and how well it's happening, are they anomalies, or is there a security threat, so forth. And then, we can provide them additional feedback. Hey, this is ananomaly, this could be a problem. This is the root cause of the problem, and we believe these are the solutions for it. What do you want to do? Do you want to actuate one of these solutions? And then they get to choose. >> And if you think about the other way, our goal is really to take the bits and bites of data in the network, convert that data into information. That information into insights. That insights that lead to outcomes. Now, you want to also make sure that you can augment the power of AI and machine learning on those insights, so you can drill down exactly what's happening. So, for example, you want to first baseline your network. What's normal for your environment? And when you have deviations. That's anomalies. Then you narrow down exactly what the problem is. And then you want to automate the remediation of that problem. That's the power of AI and ML. >> When you guys, as engineers, when you think about, you know, applying machine intelligence, there's a lot of innovation going on there. Do you home-grow that? Do you open source it? Do you, you know, borrow? Explain the philosophy there, in terms of from a development standpoint. >> Yeah. From a development point of view it's a combination of all the other aspects. We will not reinvent what already exists, but there's always a lot of secret sauce that you need to apply, because everything flows to the network, right? If everything flows to the network, Cisco has a lot of information. It's not just a data lake. We're a data source as well. So taking this disparate source of information, normalizing it, harmonizing it, creating a language, applying the algorithm of AI and machine learning. For example, we do the model learning and training in the cloud. We do inference in the cloud, and you push the rules down. So it's a combination of all of the aspects we talked about. >> Right, and you use whatever cloud tooling is available. >> Yes. >> But it sounds like from a Cisco engineering standpoint, it's how you apply the machine intelligence, for the benefit of your customers and those outcomes-- >> Anand: Yeah. >> Versus us thinking of Cisco as this new AI company, right? >> Anand: Yeah. >> That's not the latter, it's the former, is that fair? >> So one of the things that's really important is as you know, Cisco's been making, we've been designing our A6 for many years, with really, really rich telemetry. And as you know, data is key to doing good machine learning and stuff. So we've been designing the A6, to do do real time at wire speed telemetry. And also to do various sorts of algorithmic work on the A6 to figure out, hey, what is the real data you want to send up? And then we've optimized the OS, IOS XE, to be able to perform various algorithms there, and also to host containers where you can do more machine learning at the switch, at the router, even in the future, maybe, at the AP. And then with DNA center, we've been able to gather all of the data together, in a single data lake, where we can perform machine learner on top. >> That's a very important point John mentioned, because you want layer one to layer some of the analytics. And that's why the Catalyst 9120 access point we launched has the Cisco RF ASIC, that provides things like clean air for spectrum, we've also got the analytics from layer one level, all the way to layer seven. >> Yeah, I really like the line actually, from Chuck Robbins yesterday, he said, the network sees everything and Cisco wants to you know, give you that visibility. Can you walk us through some of the new pieces, what people, either things that, they might not have been aware of, or new announcements this week. >> So, as part of the Cisco AI network analytics, we announced three things. The first thing is automated baselining. What that really means is that, what's normal for your environment, right? Because what's normal for your own environment might not be the same for my environment. Once I understand what that normal baseline is, then, as I have deviations, I can do anomaly detection. I can correlate and aggregate issues. I can really bring down apply AI and machine learning and narrow down the issues that are most critical for you to look at right now. Once I narrow down the exact issue, I go on to the next thing, and that is what we call machine reasoning. And machine reasoning is all about automating the workflow of all you need to do to debug and fix a problem. You want the network to become smarter and smarter, the more you use it. And all of this is done through model learning and training in the cloud, inference in the cloud, and pushing it down, the rules as we have devices online, on plan. >> So do you see the day, if you think about the roadmap for machine intelligence, do you see the day where the machine will actually do the remediation of that workflow? >> Absolutely. That's where we need to get to. >> When you talk about the automated baselining, I mean there's obviously a security, you know, use case there. Maybe talk about that a little bit, and are there others? Really, it depends on your objective, right? If my objective is to drive more efficiency-- >> Yeah. >> Lower costs, I presume a baseline is where you start, right? So... >> When I say, baseline, what I mean really is like, say if I tell you that on this laptop, to connect to the WIFI network, it took you three seconds. And I ask you is that good or bad? You'll say, I don't know. (laughs) >> What's the baseline for the environment? >> Dave: Yeah. >> What's normal? And next time, if you take eight seconds, and your baseline is three, something is wrong. But, what is wrong? Is it a laptop issue? Is it a version on there, on your device? Is it an application issue? A network issue? An RF issue? I don't know. That's where AI machine learning will determine exactly what the problem is. And then you use machine reasoning to fix the problem. >> Sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but, how much data do you actually need, and how much time do you need, to actually do a good job in that type of use case? >> Well, what happens is you need the right data, okay? And you're not sure where the right data is. (chuckles) >> So originally what we'd do, a lot of our expertise, that Cisco has for 20 years, is figuring out what the right data is. And also, with a lot of the machine learning we've done, as well as machine reasoning, where we put together templates and so forth, we've basically gathered the right data, for the customer, and we refined that over time. So over time, like, this venue here, the way this venue's network, what it is, how it operates and so forth, varies with time, and we need to refine that over time, keep it up to date, and so forth. >> And when we talk about data, we're talking about tons of metadata here, right? I mean, do you ever see the day where there'd be more metadata than data? (laughs) >> Yeah-- >> Rhetorical question. (laughs) >> All right, so-- >> It's true though, it's true. >> Right? (laughing) >> We're here in the DevNet zone, lots of people learning about building infrastructures, code, tell us how the developer angle fits into what we've been discussing here. >> Oh, yes. So what happens is, as part of intent-based networking, a key part's the automation, right? And another key part's the assurance. Well, it's what DevNet's trying to do right now, by working with engineering, with us, and various partners, other customers, is they're putting together, what are the key use cases that people have, and what is code that can help them get that done? And what they're also doing, is they're trying to, they're looking through the code, they're improving it, they're trying to instill best practice and stuff, so it's a reasonably good code, that people can use and start building off of. So we think this can be very valuable for our customers to help move into this more advanced automation, and so forth. >> So, architecture matters, we sort of touched upon it, but I want you to talk more about multi domain architecture. We heard Chuck Robbins, you know, talk about it. What is it, why is it such a big deal, and how does it give Cisco a competitive advantage? >> Think about it, I mean, multi domain architecture's nothing but all the components of a modern enterprise network behind the scenes. From giving access to a user or device, to access to an application, and everything in between. Now traditionally, each of these domains, like an access domain, the WAN domain, can have hundreds of thousands of network nodes and devices. Each of these are configured, generally manually, the the CLI. Multi domain architecture's all about stitching these various domains into one cohesive, data-driven, automated, programmable network. So, your campus, your branch, your WAN, your data center and cloud, with security as an integral part of it, if at all. >> So, it's really a customer view of an architecture, isn't it. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. >> Okay. It's good, I like that answer. I thought you were going to come out with a bunch of Cisco-- >> Anand: No. >> Mumbo-jumbo and secret sauce-- >> No. >> But it really is, you guys thinking about, okay, how would our customers need to architect their network? >> Exactly. Because if you think about it, it's all about a customer use case. For example, like, we talked earlier, today we are working everywhere. Like, on the poolside, in the cafe, in the office, and always on the go. You're accessing your business-critical applications, whether that's Webex, salesforce.com, O365. At the same time, you're reading Facebook, and WhatsApp, and YouTube, and other applications. Cisco's SD-WAN domain will talk to Cisco's ACI domain, exchange SLAs and policies, so now you can prioritize that application that you want, which is business-critical. And place the right part, for the best experience for you. Because you want the best experience for that app, no matter where you are. >> Well, and the security implications too, I mean-- >> Anand: Absolutely. >> You're basically busting down the security silos-- >> Yeah. >> Dave: And sort of the intent here, right? >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Great. All right, last thoughts on the show, San Diego, last year we were Orlando, we were in Barcelona earlier this year, your thoughts about that. >> I think it's been great so far. If you think about it, in the last two years we've filled out the entire portfolio for the new access network. On the Catalyst 9100 access points, with WIFI 6, the switches, next generation campus core, the wireless LAN controller, eyes for unified policy, DNA center for automation, analytics, DNA spaces for business insights, the whole access network has been reinvented, and it's a great time. >> Nice, strong summary, but John, we'll give you the last word. >> What happens here is also, everything Anand says, and we have 5000 engineers who've been doing this over multiple years, and we have a lot more in the pipe. So you're going to see more in six months from now, more in nine months, and so forth. It's a very exciting time. >> Excellent. Guys, it's clear you, like you say, completing the portfolio, positioning for the next wave of access, so congratulations on all the hard work, I know a lot goes into it >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, keep right there, Dave Volante with Stu Miniman, Lisa Martin is also in the house. We'll be back with The Cube, Cisco Live 2019, from San Diego. (fast electronic music)

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem. Barker's >> Welcome back to San Diego. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader and live check coverage. My name is David Locke. I'm here with my co host student in recovering Day to hear Sisqo live. 2019 on. On On. On on. Oswald is here. Excuse me. Sees the senior vice president of enterprise networking Engineering at Cisco. And John A postal, a polis. Italians in the Greeks. We have a lot in common. He is the VP and CTO of Enterprise Network. And get Sisko. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. How'd I do? Do you know it? Also, that you're bad, right? Thank you. All right, Good. Deal it out. Let's start with you. You guys have had a bunch of news lately. Uh, you're really kind of rethinking access to the network. Can you explain what's behind that to our audience? >> Yeah, even think about it. The network is getting has running more and more critical. Infrastructure at the same time is increasing. Bottom scale and complexity. What? We expected that you'll only be obvious. Violence on workspace is on the move. Are you? You're working here in your office, in the cafe, The sock off everywhere you want. An uninterrupted unplugged experience for that is violence. First, it's cloud driven and is dead optimist. So we had to rethink our way to access. It's not just about your laptops and your fool on the wireless network. In the end of the digital management systems, Coyote devices, everything is going to provide us with means reaching the access on that. But >> so, John, this obviously ties into, you know, you hear all the buzz about five g and WiFi. Six. Can you explain the connection? And you know what? We need to know about that. >> Okay, it's so fine. Five. Jean WiFi 62 new wireless technologies coming about now, and they're really awesome. So y fi six is the new version. WiFi. It's available today, and it's going to be available for down predominately indoors as wi WiFi indoors and high density environments where you need a large number. Large data bait for square meter una WiFi. Once again, the new WiFi six fight in the coverage indoors uh, five is going to be used predominately outdoors in the cellular frequency. Replacing conventional for Geo lt will provide you The broad coverage is your roam around outdoors. And what happens, though, is we need both. You need great coverage indoors, which wife Isis can provide, and you need great coverage outdoors. Which five year cried >> for G explosion kind of coincided with mobile yet obviously, and that caused a huge social change. And, of course, social media took off. What should we expect with five G? Is it? You know, I know adoption is gonna take a while. I'll talk about that, but it feels like it's more sort of be to be driven, but but maybe not. Can you >> see why 5 65 gr actually billions Some similar fundamental technology building blocks? You know you will be in the ball game for the Warriors game like a few weeks ago when they were winning on DH. After a bit of time to send that message. Video your kid something on the WiFi slow laden Z with WiFi, 61 have a problem. The WiFi six has four times the late in C 14. The throughput and capacity has existing y find Lowell Agency and also the battery life. You know, people say that that is the most important thing today. Like in the mass Maharaj three times the battery life for WiFi, 16 points. So you're gonna see a lot of use cases where you have inter walking within 556 and five g WiFi six foot indoors and find you for outdoor and some small overlap. But the whole idea is how do you ensure that these two disparate access networks are talking to each other explaining security policy and it is invisibility. >> Okay, so first what? Your warriors fan, right? Yeah. Awesome way. Want to see the Siri's keep going, baby? That was really exciting. Because I'm a Bruins fan, sir, on the plane the other night and in the JetBlue TV. Shut down, you know, So I immediately went to the mobile, But it was terrible experience, and I was going crazy checks in my friends. What's happening? You say that won't happen? Yeah, with five Julia and WiFi sexy. Exactly. Awesome. >> So, John, help connect for us. Enterprise. Not working. We've been talking about the new re architectures. You know, there's a c I there now intent based networking. How does this play into the five G and WiFi six discussion that we're having today? >> So one of the things that really matters to our customers and for everybody, basically, they want these sort of entering capability. They had some device is they want to talk to applications. They want access to data. We want to talk with other people or try ot things. So you need this sort of end twin capability wherever the ends are. So one of the things I've been working on a number of years now it's first all intent Basin that working, which we announced two and 1/2 years ago. And then multi domain, we try to connect across the different domains. Okay, well across campus and when, and data center all the way to the cloud and across the Service Fighter network and trad security has foundational across all of these. This was something that David Buckler and Chuck Robbins talked about at their keynote yesterday, and this is a huge area for us because we're going to make this single orchestrated capability crop customers to connect and to and no matter where the end of ices are >> alright so sewn on I have to believe that it's not the port, you know, administrator saying, Oh my God, I have all these signs of them. Is this where machine learning in A I come in to help me with all these disparate system absolutely are going very simple. Any user on any device had access to any application. Sitting in a data center in a cloud of multiple clouds over any network, you want that securely and seamlessly. You also wanna have nature. Its whole network is orchestrator automated, and you're the right visibility's recipes for idea on with the business insights on the eye. An ML. What's happening is there for the next book is going in complexity and skill. The number of alerts are growing up, so you are not able to figure it out. That's where the power of a I and machine learning comes. Think about it in the industry revolution, the Industrial Revolution made sure that you are. You don't have limitations or what humans can do right, like machines. And now we want to make sure businesses can benefit in the digital revolution, you know, in limited by what I can pass through all the logs and scrolls on ornament. Everything and that's the power of air and machine learning >> are there use cases where you would want some human augmentation. We don't necessarily want the machine taking over for you or Or Do you see this as a fully automated type of scenario? >> Yeah, so what happens is first ball visibility is really, really important. The operator of an effort wants the visibility and they want entwined across all these domains. So the first thing we do is we apply a lot of machine learning to get to take that immense amount of data is an unmentioned and to translate it into piece of information to insights into what's happening so that we could share to the user. And they can have visibility in terms of what's happened, how well it's happening. Are they anomalies? Are is this security threat so forth? And then we can find them additional feedback. Hate. This is anomaly. This could be a problem. This is the root cause of the problem, and we believe these are the solutions for what do you want to do? You wantto Do you want actuate one of these solutions and then they get to choose. >> And if you think of any other way, our goal is really take the bits and bytes of data on a network. Convert that data into information that information into insights that inside that lead to outcomes. Now you want. Also make sure that you can augment the power of a machine. Learning on those insights, you can build on exactly what's happening. For example, you want first baseline, your network, what's normal for your environment and when you have deviations and that anomalies. Then, you know, I don't know exactly what the problem is. Anyone automated the mediation of the problem. That's the power of A and women you >> When you guys as engineers, when you think about, you know, applying machine intelligence, there's a lot of, you know, innovation going on there. Do you home grow that? Do you open source it? Do you borrow? Explain the philosophy there in terms of it. From a development standpoint, >> development point of it is a combination of off all the aspects, like we will not green when they leave it all the exists. But it's always a lot of secrets are that you need to apply because everything flows through the network, right? If everything first netbooks, this quarter of information is not just a data link, their data source as well. So taking this district's also information. Normalizing it, harmonizing it, getting a pretty language. Applying the Alberta and machine learning, for example. We do that model, model learning and training in the clouds. Way to infants in the cloud, and you pushed the rules down. There's a combination, all of all, of that >> right, and you use whatever cloud tooling is available. But it sounds like it's really from an interest from a Cisco engineering standpoint. It's how you apply the machine intelligence for the benefit of your customers and those outcomes versus us. Thinking of Sisko is this new way I company right. That's not the ladder. It's the former. Is that >> fair? One of the things that's really important is that, as you know, Cisco has been making, uh, we've been designing a six for many years with really, really rich telemetry and, as you know, Data's key to doing good machine learning and stuff. So I've been designing the A six to do really time at wire speed telemetry and also to do various sorts of algorithmic work on the A six. Figure out. Hey, what is the real data you want to send up? And then we have optimized the OS Iowa sexy to be able to perform various algorithms there and also post containers where you could do more more machine learning at the switch at the router, even in the future, maybe at the A P and then with DNA Center way, have been able to gather all the data together in a single data life where we could form a machine learning on top. >> That's important, Point John mentioned, because you want Leo want layers and analytics. And that's why the cattle's 91 191 20 access point we launch has Cisco are basic that provides things like cleaning for spectrum were also the analytic from layer one level are literally a seven. I really like the line, actually from Chuck Robbins, yesterday said. The network sees everything, and Cisco wants to give you that visibility. Can you walk us through some of the new pieces? What, what what people, Either things that they might not have been aware of our new announcements this week as part of the Sisko, a network analytics, announced three things. First thing is automated based lining. What it really means. Is that what's normal for your environment, right? Because what's normal for your own environment may not be the same for my environment. Once I understand what that normal baseline is, then, as I have deviations I canto anomaly detection, I can call it an aggregate issues I can really bring down. Apply here and machine learning and narrow down the issues that are most critical for you to look at right now. Once and Aragon exact issue. I wanted the next thing, and that is what we call machine. Reasoning on machine reasoning is all about ordering the workflow off what you need to do to debug and fix the problem. You want the network to become smarter and smarter, the more you use it on. All of this is done through model learning and putting in the clouds infants in the cloud and pushing it down the rules as way have devices on line on time. So, >> do you see the day? If you think about the roadmap for for machine intelligence, do you see the day where the machine will actually do the remediation of that workflow. >> Absolutely. That's what we need to get you >> when you talk about the automated base lining is obviously a security, you know, use case there. Uh, maybe talk about that a little bit. And are there others? It really depends on your objective, right? If my objective is to drive more efficiency, lower costs, I presume. A baseline is where you start, right? So >> when I say baseline what I mean really, like, say, if I tell you that from this laptop to connect on a WiFi network, it took you three seconds and ask, Is that good or bad? You know, I don't know what the baseline for his environment. What's normal next time? If you take eight seconds on your baseline street, something is wrong. But what is wrong isn't a laptop issue isn't a version on the on your device is an application issue on network issue and our issue I don't know. That's why I'm machine learning will do exactly what the problem is. And then you use machine reasoning to fix a problem. >> Sorry. This is probably a stupid question, but how much data do you actually need. And how much time do you need to actually do a good job in that? That type of use case? >> What happens is you need the right data, Okay? And you're not sure where the right data is originally, which we do a lot of our expertise. It's this grass for 20 years is figuring out what the right data is and also with a lot of machine learning. We've done as well as a machine reason where we put together templates and so forth. We've basically gathered the right made for the right cause for the customer. And we refined that over time. So over time, like this venue here, the way this venue network, what it is, how it operates and so forth varies with time. We need to weigh need to refine that over time, keep it up to date and so forth. >> And when we talk about data, we're talking about tons of metadata here, right? I mean, do you see the day where there'll be more metadata than data? Yeah, it's a rhetorical question. All right, so So it's true you were hearing >> the definite zone. Lots of people learning about a building infrastructure is code. Tell us how the developer angle fits into what we've been discussing. >> Here we ask. So what happens is is part of intent based on African key parts of automation, right? And another key parts. The assurance. Well, it's what Devon it's trying to do right now by working with engineering with us and various partners are customers is putting together one of the key use cases that people have and what is code that can help them get that done. And what they're also doing is trying to the looking through the code. They're improving it, trying to instill best practice and stuff. So it's recently good po'd people can use and start building off. So we think this could be very valuable for our customers to help move into this more advanced automation and so forth. >> So architecture matters. We've touched upon it. But I want you to talk more about multi domain architectures wear Chuck Robbins. You know, talk about it. What is it? Why is it such a big deal on DH? How does it give Sisko competitive advantage? >> Think about it. I mean, my dad go being architectures. Nothing but all the components of a modern enterprise that look behind the scenes from giving access to a user or device to access for application and everything in between. Traditionally, each of these domains, like an access domain, the land domain can have 100 thousands off network know that device is. Each of these are configured General Manual to see a live my domain architectures almost teaching these various domains into one cohesive, data driven, automated programmable network. Your campus, your branch, your ran. But he doesn't and cloud with security as an integral part of it if it all. >> So it's really a customer view of an architecture isn't? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, that's good. I like that answer. I thought you're going to come out with a bunch of Cisco No mumbo jumbo in secret sauce. Now it really is you guys thinking about Okay, how would our customers need to architect there? >> But if you think about it, it's all about customer use case, for example, like we talked earlier today, we were walking everywhere on the bull's eye, in the cafe, in office and always on the goal. You're accessing your business school applications, whether it's webex salesforce dot com, 40 65. At the same time you're doing Facebook and what's happened. YouTube and other applications. Cisco has the van Domain will talk to Sisko. The domains action escalates and policies. So now you can cry tears the application that you want, which is business critical and fixing the night watchers but miss experience for you. But you want the best experience for that matter, where you are well >> on the security implications to I mean, you're basically busting down the security silos. Sort of the intent here, right? Right. Last thoughts on the show. San Diego last year. Orlando. We're in Barcelona earlier this year. >> I think it's been great so far. If you think about it in the last two years, we fill out the entire portfolio for the new access network when the cattle is 90. 100. Access points with WiFi six Switches Makes emission Campus core. Waterston, Controller Eyes for Unified Policy Data Center for Automation Analytics. Delia Spaces Business Insights Whole Access Network has been reinvented on It's a great time. >> Nice, strong summary, but John will give you the last word. >> What happens here is also everything about It says that we have 5,000 engineers have been doing this a couple years and we have a lot more in the pipe. So you're going to Seymour in six months from now Morn. Nine months and so forth. It's a very exciting time. >> Excellent. Guys. It is clear you like you say, completing the portfolio positioning for the next wave of of access. So congratulations on all the hard work I know a lot goes into it is Thank you very much for coming. All right, Keep it right there. David. Dante was stupid. And Lisa Martin is also in the house. We'll get back with the Cube. Sisqo live 2019 from San Diego.

>> Narrator: Live. From Atlanta Georgia. It's theCUBE. Covering, Citrix Synergy, Atlanta 2019. Brought to you by Citrix. >> Hey, Welcome back to theCUBE. Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend and we're comin' to you Live from Atlanta, Georgia. The Showfloor from Citrix Synergy 2019. We're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time Simon Bray. Principle and Head of Leadership and Culture at Vega Factor. Simon, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks very much. Great to be here. >> So, I was doing some stalkin' of you online as I do for every guest. >> Simon: Thank you. >> Yup. And I read you're a culture Agent based in New York City. >> Simon: Yes. >> Then you come on set and I'm like , you're not originally from New York City. >> Simon: That is correct. >> You're a transplant and you hail from Brooklyn. >> Simon: Yes, I do. >> Which is where my mom Cathy Dally is from. >> Simon: Very nice, very nice. >> She will love you automatically because you live in Brooklyn. >> Keith: (laughter) >> I consider myself to be a New Yorker. I moved to New York in early 2006. So 14 years, and I think I can make that claim. Although, I am originally form London. >> I would say so. Although your accent is still identifiable. >> Simon: I keep-- I try to keep the accent. >> I mistaked it for a Texas accent, so that's--. >> Texas? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Got confused? Oh there you go. >> I get that a lot. >> I bet. Yeah. Well, regardless of that you're a Culture Agent. >> Simon: Yes. >> What is that? >> Simon: Okay. >> Because we talk about Cultural Transformation and Corporate Cultures and how employee experience is essential. But Culture Agent, I just thought that was very interesting. >> Yes, so my job is to help organizations create great cultures. Essentially, our theory at Vega Factor is that to create a great culture-- First of all you need to make sure that you build an adaptive organization. So one that is able to change, is able to flex is able to innovate. So that's kind of part one. So my role is really to help organizations become more adaptive. The way that I do that is by trying to -- create an operating model in an organization that is highly motivating. We've developed a way of measuring motivation. We call it TOMO. Where, essentially you look at trying to create a system which drives up the Play, Purpose and Potential the individuals feel. Play is enjoying the work. Purpose is when people feel like they're makin' a difference. And Potential, is when people feel like they're developing and growing. And minimizing the emotional pressure, economic pressure and inertia people feel. So were tyin' to design an operating model that drives that up in order to help people become more adaptive. So my work is to work with leaders and organizations all over the place to help them apply the science of that approach to become more adaptive. >> Lisa: That's awesome. So I've heard of FOMO. >> Okay. >> Fear of missing out. Which I imagine -- everybody that's not here at Citrix Synergy has FOMO. >> Well, of course. It's incredible. >> I know JOMO, I don't have that right now goin' on. >> (giggles). >> TOMO. >> Yes. >> Total, motivation? >> Total motivation. Yeah, so we were asking ourselves the question how do you get people to turn up and do their best work? You know, how do you get people to be motivated not just to do what it says on their job description. To actually lean into their role. To be constantly thinking about how to improve it. About how to innovate, about to problem solve. About how to collaborate. When times are tough. And really what it boiled down to is really simple insight. Which is why we work, determines how well we work. So we started lookin' at the psychology behind motivation. That's where we developed this frame work we call TOMO or total motivation. Which is where we're lookin' at trying to get people to turn up and be excited for themselves. Versus doing things because they're being pressured to do it by external forces. >> Keith: So a lot-- a lot of great conversation on stage this mornin' talking about employee experience, employee's not getting disenfranchised or feelin' unmotivated about their jobs. What are some of the largest factors you see, did what Citrix shared this morning correlate with what you're seeing when you're talkin' to clients? >> Simon: 100%, Yeah. I think what was interesting this morning was the focus on not just the technology but the peoples side of things. And making sure that there's a close partnership between people and technology. And really seeing that through the lens of the overall employee experience. The way that we see the employee experience is everything that affects somebody's motivation in an organization is part of the employee experience. So, everything from the way that you frame up your purpose and identity as an organization. To the way that you organize yourselves and design roles and teams. To the way that you work together as a team. To the way that you set up governance, planning, the talent and performance systems. All of these things can be designed poorly. And therefore create disengagement and lack of motivation. They can also be designed really well. To drive that play, purpose and potential that I talked about earlier on. And as I said before, our work is all about helping organizations design the system within which people work to maximize TOMO. And that's our answer to some of the issues that were raised this morning about employees being disengaged. Our view is that that's just not good enough. You need to make sure that you're really focusing on how to make sure that people turn up and do their best work. And then the technology side of it is making sure that they're equipped with the tools, of course, that they need to do that. >> So, where do you start when organizations come to you in the Vega Factor and say, Hey guys, whether it's a younger organization that I would think on one hand might have an advantage being younger, maybe less kind of cultural biases built in. Versus an organization that might be a competitor with Citrix. Who's been around for decades and has a very, probably I don't want to say static culture. But probably a lot of cultural elements really locked in. What's the starting point? For that fresher organization versus a legacy organization? Are there any overlaps with where you guys recommend, all right this where we got to go. >> Yeah, I think the same overall framework applies. But just in a slightly different way. So, the way we start our conversations often is by defining performance as being, having two parts. The first part of performance is tactical performance. Which is all about strategy, planning and execution. And doing that as efficiently as possible. So tactical performance is really important. And then there's also the adaptive performance. Adaptive performance is how effectively can you diverge from the plan. Reacting to context changes, innovating, problem solving, solving issues. And those two types of performance are both important but they're opposing. So if you have too much tactical performance, you end up being very rigid. And it kills your ability to be adaptive. If you have too much adaptive performance you end up reinventing things all of the time and having no tactical performance and being a bit chaotic. I share that because when we look at two different types of company. Call it a legacy organization and a high growth start up. We often find that that high growth start ups have too much adaptive performance and that eats their ability to be tactical performance. People go crazy, because they're reinventing themselves all the time. And they haven't got the processes and systems so a lot of times with those organizations it's all about getting clear, on some of the basics. What are the guard rails within which we operate. What is our purpose, and identity? How do we want to organize? So that's all about helping a highly adaptive organization improve their tactical performance. Then the other side of it is a legacy organization. You know, think of any big mega organization. Where, actually as they've grown they've shifted from being really adaptive into being really tactical. They put in place processes and policies and structures, to help them manage their scale. The issue is, is that in doing that they can often lose their ability to be adaptive, By becoming bureaucratic. So, with those organizations a lot of our work is how can you, without losing that tactical performance create the space, and autonomy for teams to be able to be adaptive at the same time? So that's kind of where we come. Same framework, but actually a start point that's really quite different. >> So, let's talk about scale. Small organizations, start ups, I can see how that approach can be very deliberate. You can, spend a percentage of your time building culture. Let's talk about the big battle ships. When your goin' into a large organization. How does a large organization where it's very difficult to impact change and culture change. How do large organization's tackle this challenge? >> That's a great question. You're right, it is much harder to work within a big organization to affect change. I think the way that we would typically approach it is first of all, not to try to change a big organization at the same time. You know, it's hard to change the behavior of a thousands of people quickly. And so what we try to do is to start by taking a small part of the organization. To actually, show using that organization what good looks like. To, and then build from that. So, show the rest of the organization how this can work, how you can manage both tactical and adaptive performance. How you can create a high TOMO way of working. Then we find, that people gradually follow on from there. What's really important about that is, one you're not trying to boil the ocean. But secondly, you're showing people what good looks like and you're giving them the opportunity to opt in. And I found that when people opt into change and they start pulling for it that's a much better way to affect change versus operate in a situation where change is something that's done to people. Where people are told what to do. >> Lisa: It's being pushed on them. >> Yeah exactly. >> Lisa: Right, naturally, you're going to get resistance there. >> Yeah. For sure. >> Some of the stats that we heard this morning and Keith and I are both living this. I think I heard, maybe it was within the last week that by 2020, which is literally around the corner that 50% of the work force is going to be remote. >> Simon: Yeah. >> And I think they were saying this morning that in the next few years there's going to be 65 billion connected devices. With each person having about eight different connected devices. Keith and I are here with out different devices. Where do you see, the necessity of delivering mobile experiences. But also, for cultural impact for businesses, small or large to enable workers to be remote and give them access? Rather than forcing that they sit on a train for an hour, or in the car, and be in the office. Where is that conversation in the Vega platform? >> Yeah, it's an interesting one. So, one of the things that we spend quite a lot of time doing, is working with individual teams to help them operate more as a team. One of the things I found quite surprising in my work with different types of organizations is that often teams are connected by a common manager, but essentially are a collection of individual contributors who aren't actually working on shared issues. So, one of the first things that we like to do is to help teams re-orient themselves around the shared purpose. And, set themselves challenges for things that they want to solve together to improve their collective performance. So that's a foundational piece. Once we've done that, then the next question becomes, to answer your question, how do you get teams to problem solve together effectively. And there's two different times when teams problem solve. One is what we would call synchronously. Synchronicity is where teams need to get together physically, and actually brain storm and kick around a problem. And there is a time and a place to do that. That's why its still important to have get-togethers and to create that human connection. But actually more and more we find that teams need to also be able to solve problems in parallel asynchronously. And I think that's where technology comes in. Technology allows teams to work together on problems but not all be in the same place at the same time. To be able to do that in parallel and whenever they want to. It's when you get that asynchronous problem solving and synchronous problem solving that you can get teams to generally work together and that way we find people perform at a much higher level than if they're essentially just focusing on the job that they have. >> So obviously, you work across industries, groups and type of functions. Can you share with us some correlation between TOMO, the rise in kind of this-- employee experience measure and performance? Like, what are some of the key indicators that culture is improving performance? >> That's a great question as well. So, one of the things that we spend a lot of time doing in our early research is trying to quantify culture. Because you know, most of us would agree that culture is important but it becomes something that can easily get shunted down the list. Or seen as a nice to have (mumbles) especially if times are tough. So we spend a lot of time trying to measure culture and then to be able to to show a correlation between that measure and the performance of a business. So, the first thing that we did is say well how do you measure culture? And our way of measuring culture is the degree to which people are motivated. So this comes back to TOMO. The way that we calculate TOMO is by adding up the play, purpose and potential that somebody feels. And subtracting the emotional pressure, economic pressure and inertia they feel. And these are weighted according to their proximity to the work. And they end up giving us a nice neat score between minus 100 and positive 100. Like a net promoters score. We get that number by asking them six multiple choice questions. So it's two or three minutes. That gives us an individual score but also of course, we can measure that organizationally. We then looked at the correlation between that score and the performances of business across a range of different industries. And we show a straight line correlation between TOMO and business performance. So as an example, we looked at the airline industry. And we looked at the TOMO of most of the U.S airlines. And we found that the highest TOMO airline -- Can you guess what the highest TOMO airline is? >> Lisa: JetBlue? Southwest? >> Southwest. >> Keith: I was going to say SouthWest. >> JetBlue is second. So we found that when you walk on a Southwest or JetBlue airplane you feel great. It feels different. Because the employees, the flight crew, turn up in a different way. That's because their TOMO is higher. And as a result the performance of Southwest particularly around elements like Customer Experience, Customer Satisfaction is significantly higher than the rest. The lowest TOMO airline in our data set is United. Now-- >> Lisa: I was going to guess that. >> Keith: (laughter) >> Now, if you think of TOMO low TOMO tends to be when people either have low play, purpose and potential. They're not enjoying their job they don't feel like their makin' a difference or they're not learning. Or the system they're in is very high pressured. High emotional pressure, economic pressure. That creates a lower business performance. It can also have a negative effects from a behavioral point of view. As an example, if you saw the story a couple of years ago where United had a big scandal where someone was pulled, man-handled off one of their planes. That's a predictable affect of low TOMO. Our data, our research was done two years before that happened. And we would've been able to predict that United would have issues based upon their low TOMO score. To try to explain, and I wasn't there of course. But to try to explain what happened through the lens of TOMO. If you create a very high pressure system where the ground staff, are being essentially measured on their ability to get the plane to take off on time. When a passenger sits, and refuses to move, because of the pressure the ground crew are under they forget what the right thing to do is. Because of their low TOMO and pressure they ended up man-handling the passenger off. United lost a billion dollars in their share price. And that's a predictable, what we call a cobra affects. Which, is where people kind of feel like they have to cheat or short cut the system, that we are predicting is a result of low TOMO. >> So, we're almost out of time here but I'm so curious, how do you -- what the incentives are, for United airlines to really look at that kind of experience that goes viral on social media and these things happen, I don't want to say all the time. But that was not an isolated incident. >> Simon: Absolutely not. >> So for a company like that that's making money hand over fist flights are always sold out. They're not hurting for business. What incentivizes a business like that to flip that TOMO scale? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really difficult to make any kind of change happen when you're doing okay. First of all. And that's difficult. But the reality is is that, if you had measured the TOMO of United, and there are many other examples I am not just trying to pick on them. You would've been able to guess that this would happen. And so, our advise to organizations is regardless of how successful you are regardless of how well your business results are in the short term. You need to be thinking long term about culture. You need to be thinking about what is the operating system that you're putting your employees into. And getting ahead of what could be consequences that happen down the stream as a result of well intended moves that you make now to improve your tactical performance. >> Awesome, Simon. This has been so interesting. I learned a new acronym >> Together: TOMO. >> It's some great stuff. >> Lisa: I want to have TOMO everyday, and I'm going to really work on that. Being on theCUBE it's not hard to achieve that. >> Simon: This is great. >> Well Simon, we, Keith and I so appreciate you comin' by and sharing what you guys are doin' at Vega. And really, really interesting. TOMO. >> Thank you very much. Thanks guys. >> Lisa: Our pleasure. For Keith Townsend, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live on the show floor of Citrix Synergy 2019, from Atlanta Georgia. Thanks for watching.

(energetic music) >> Announcer: Live from New Orleans, Louisiana, it's The Cube! Covering .NEXT conference, 2018, brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage here of Nutanix .NEXT 2018, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host, Keith Townsend. Happy to welcome to the program two first time guests. We have Sherry Lautenbach who's the SVP of America Sales with Nutanix and Inder Sidhu who is the EVP of Global Customer Success, also with Nutanix. Sherry and Inder, thanks for joining us. >> Sherry: Thank you. >> Alright, so Sherry, first of all, you were up on stage this morning celebrating customers, we actually had the chance yesterday to nominate one of the, to interview one of the, nominees there and talked about what that meant to them and it was really talked about, you know, it's validation, where you know, we're trying something, we think we went out beyond what other people are doing and getting that validation back was just, they were really excited just to be nominated, so, you know, take us inside. >> Yeah, so first of all, we had hundreds of nominations, so it was super hard to choose and break it down to the finalists and then of course the winners, but for us, it was about innovation about cloud trailblazers, you know, dev ops, lots of different types of awards this year, and recognizing things that customers are doing to innovate with Nutanix. The best award we did have was Art.Heart give-back award and that, you know, it says a lot about our company that we focus on what companies are doing to better the communities they live in and the world in general, so. >> Yeah, and JetBlue is the winner there. >> Absolutely. >> Have to say, it makes me even happier to talk about, I have status with JetBlue, cause I fly to a lot of shows. >> Yeah, I can imagine Doug, they've been a great partner of ours, a great spokesperson, and they've really leveraged our technology to innovate with their company, so it's been a, it was a great morning. >> Alright, Inder, we watched Nutanix since the early days, discussion about NPS scores, and when you can't, when you come to an event like this, you can't help but feel the passion of the customers - over 5500 people here. Talk to us about what your role is, your engagement with customers, that whole customer success, and what that means. >> Yeah, customer success in my mind, Stu, is probably the single most important thing that we do at Nutanix, and the reason is because customers drive everything that the company does; it drives our employee behavior, it drives our partner behavior, it drives our product roadmaps. We're an outside-in company, fundamentally, and therefore, driving the customer success holistically, not just in terms of support after they might have an issue, but holistically, end-to-end over the entire life cycle is very very important for us. So, we're creating an organization, an investment, reporting all the way to the CEO to drive exactly that and we're very excited about that. >> Right, and I call it customer obsession, so I've been at Nutanix six months, the first day I showed up to headquarters, they gave me my laptop, and then they brought me up to the customer support area and said, "This is why we're so successful, because we are maniacally focused on ensuring our customers are being delivered value every day." And with a focus on our NPS four daily. So, for me, that was super impressive, and we don't let up on it. >> Stu: You know, Sherry, and I love some of the pieces. You were talking about innovation, talking about developers-- >> Sherry: Yes. >> We've been talking to a lot of customers about their digital transformation. It's not just, "Oh, okay, I'm re-platforming," it's more than that, talking about, what one of the customers said is, you know, "Business as IT." >> Right, no absolutely. So, digital transformation is clearly the buzzword, but it is all about what are companies doing to transform their businesses to become digital. And, Dheeraj always says, you know, "To be in that digital transformation journey is all about what you do to transform not only your IT operations, but the business." And the business drives what digital transformation does, absolutely. And it's not just creating things online or creating a presence, but its actually innovating yourself to differentiate yourself from your competition. We've seen that time and time again on what Amazon did to bookstores or what Netflix did to Blockbuster. And those types of things are the innovation that drives the change. >> Keith: So, Inder, speaking of innovation-- >> Inder: Mmhmm. >> Nutanix digitally transformed themselves into a software company. You guys made a lot of announcements, a lot of new products in the pipeline, a lot of new features available: GA as of the show. Nutanix has become a bigger company, valuation over nine billion dollars, as you get bigger, it's hard to keep that NPS score over 90. Where's the focus and how do you do it as Nutanix grows? >> You know one of the things, I think, as we become a big company in terms of size and scale, in terms of our heart and in terms of our spirit, we're very much a small company. I go tell customers, there is going to be times when we'll screw up. But you'll never find any company that's going to work harder than us to drive your success. And that's where the intent is, that's where the focus is. We're going to do whatever it takes from an holistic end-to-end customer perspective. We're assigning customer success managers to some of our largest customers so we can proactively engage with them, especially along three dimensions. We're not like a lot of other technology companies, where you just try to sell them technology, we're around three things: we want to make sure make sure that our customers can be organizationally proficient, we want to make sure they're operationally efficient and we want to make sure that they're financially accountable. All three of those dimensions have to do with stuff that's important to them. As we make them successful along those dimensions, automatically the technology starts to get adopted and they start seeing some benefits. >> So, Sherry, let's talk about that customer success manager. What are they empowered to do, like, if there's a problem, how do they make it right? >> Well that's a great question, they're empowered to do whatever it takes on behalf of the customer to ensure that one, they're deploying our technology well and they're finding great value in it. It's interesting, I've spoken to many customers at this conference and so many of them have said, you know, using Nutanix has changed my career, my career trajectory, and the business value I provide the organization, not just from an IT standpoint, but on the business side. And so for me, there's no greater compliment when our customers, they're cheering for us, they're rooting for us cause we're helping to transform what they do every day. So the customer success manager is just going to be an overlap in terms of ensuring and driving that success as we get deeper and deeper into these customers. >> And what we're going to do is we're going to start out with customer success managers more at the top of the pyramid, some of the largest accounts, but remember, we still have hundreds and hundreds of account team members from Sherry's team and others; SEs, all of whom provide an even greater leverage, and then extending all the way through our partners. So we have a high-touch model at the top with CSMs, we have a medium-touch model with SEs and account teams and insight sales reps and partners in the middle, and on the bottom of the pyramid, we've got a tech-touch model, where we're going to actually leverage our technology with self-service portals and so on with emails and webinars and training and material that can actually drive their end-to-end success, very focused on that. >> Stu: Sherry, I'm wondering if you can dig in some of the organizational pieces that Inder was talking about. From your customers as you move up the food chain with the products, what are you hearing from your various constituencies inside of companies? >> Inside of our customers? >> Stu: Inside of the customers, yes. >> Right, so, well we cover, in terms of an organizational size, we cover all different types of customers in various ways. We have dedicated account people to our largest accounts alongside with SEs of course. And we leverage our partners, though, in our channel and everything we do, so they're considered an extension of our sales force, which I think is truly valuable and really important that we ensure that they drive success with our customers. >> Anything special you're hearing when you get up to the C-Suite, pain points, that they're hearing more than you heard in the architect or admin standpoint? >> Yeah, no, they're looking for more of, you know, helping to rationalize cloud: how do I get to cloud, what's the right balance in terms of hybrid, on-prem, off-prem, and really, understanding the business value and drivers around it, not just cost efficiency. It's about transforming different areas of their business and many of the C-Suite customers that I speak to really are approaching it many different ways, dependent on what is the key pain point and business problem they're trying to solve. >> Inder: So, two things I'd say to add to Sherry's answer there is that what we see is customers wanting to engage more architecturally rather than an individual point product through a consultative process that is more around business outcomes. So it's not something necessarily new, but it's a little bit new for Nutanix, cause we've historically engaged at the technology level, and now you're finding more and more. Of the Fortune 50, we have 33. Of the Fortune 100, we have 66. So we're actually starting to get to really large customers in a big way. They want a deeper, architectural, all-in engagement, and as our portfolio starts to expand from just HCI to Flow and Beam and Xi and all of those, they're saying gosh, I mean I just literally ran into a CIO in the elevator, coming down this morning, and he said gosh, we were thinking about doing NSX but now that I came here and I heard about Flow and I heard about Xi, I think I'm going to go all-in with you guys, I'm going to put that thing on ice, and really work with you guys on this. Literally, unsolicited, in the elevator, this morning. >> Keith: That's impressive. So as we, on all those lines of growth, you guys have a huge user community: 70,000 participants, and this morning, Dr. Brennan, I'm sorry, Dr. Brené Brown talked about having difficult conversations around diversity. I want to first give you guys kudos, this is from an optics perspective been one of the most diverse technology conferences I've attended from an entertainment to the onstage presence to the keynote speakers, awesome job. As you guys are working towards having a more diverse user set, how are you helping your user community be successful along with their careers from a diversity perspective and whereas a career development perspective. >> Great question, and yes, I'm super proud of the diversity, things we're doing in the company. Just yesterday, I hosted a women's IT luncheon, so we celebrated the women around Nutanix so that was all about building a network of all of our customers: female and male, they were included too in this luncheon. And we had over 130 people, spent time, I said let's exchange business cards, let's talk about some of the challenges you face. We had one of our board members, Sue Bostrom share some very personal stories about challenges she's faced and opportunities to help advance her career, gave a great perspective on that. We also had the CEO of FlyWheel, she talked about failing fast and pivoting, and that to me was great little lessons and tidbits that we can provide our customers to say let's empower you to be even better and to build your network even more effectively. >> And if I can add to that, I think, what we're always looking for is a diversity of ideas, and those diversity of ideas is not just a nice-to-have, it's a must-have because it actually drives positive business outcomes from us when we start to represent what our community of users and what our community of customers is. And that diversity of ideas comes from people who have had a diversity of backgrounds, across a wide range of dimensions of diversity, and that's what we're really looking for. We're not necessarily solving for outcomes, we want to solve for opportunity, and make sure that everybody has that equal opportunity to engage and participate, and the more we do that, the richer we get, the more powerful we get, the more alive we become, I think, with diversity. >> Right, I mean, you think about that, you know, our traditional influencer was in the data center side, but we've found now in terms of diversity of our portfolio, the developer is going to be just as important of an influencer for Nutanix, so we're looking at it from not only our customers and who but what they do. >> Stu: Inder, I was wondering if you could get some colla rosso on the vertical side of things, we know you started early very much in the public sector phase, had a lot of strength there, so speak to how else you're growing in the vertical space. >> Inder: Yeah, one of the things we're doing is as we get into bigger and larger customers, as you know, we have 9000 customers, adding a thousand every quarter, we have about 642 after global 2000 customers and so, as we get into those, those customers want us to be able to talk to them in their language, around their issue. So I'll give you a great example, you know, recently, we hired a guy, his name is Don Mims out of Baylor Scott & White as a Customer Success Manager. Here's a guy who's done everything the Nutanix products, implemented them all through Baylor Scott & White, 7000 beds, 48 hospitals, and here's a guy who's implemented Nutanix, he's implemented AHV, he's implemented Epic. I got 40 other customers in the US alone who want to implement Epic and AHV in the healthcare sector among the provider community, and we're going to go towards those customers with that kind of verticalized expertise. Same thing around financial services, same thing around retail. I mean, when you look at retail, Walmart, Home Depot, Tractor Supply Company, Nordstrom, Target, you know, Best Buy, Kohls, we've got a wide range of customers who give us insight into their operations, and when we engage with them, when you're talking to a retailer, you're talking about dollars per square foot, you're talking about same store sales, you're talking about a flexible workforce and then you translate that into IT, which translates into a hybrid public-private flexible infrastructure. So as we have these conversations, they're very engaging, and we are starting to verticalize if you will, in terms of our overlay expertise. Sales force of course is going to be geographic first, because of the proximity that's required, but we're going to have overlay both in the services and in the sales organization that's going to be very noticeable as well. >> And we have found that there are certain geographies and areas that we can verticalize in the field, so, for example, Tennessee or in California, we can build healthcare verticals which has been very effective cause customers want us to talk in their language, understand what critical business applications they can leverage with Nutanix. So we're trying to mirror, as best we can, the vertical point of view in the field. >> Public sector of course is the first vertical that gets carved out for many companies, service providers, the second, we've already got public sector carved out, and one of the things, great kudos to Sherry and her team, you were proactive, Sherry, with Brad Rhodes in kind of carving out healthcare as a dedicated sales region in the West where people have nowhere to hide, you just live and die by the healthcare success, customer success. >> Well, and also, the familiarity on the use cases, right, cause a lot of the use cases are repeatable, so it just makes a lot of sense for us to bring teams together that can go to market that way. >> Keith: So, let's talk about the speed of Nutanix. I love the story, the impromptu meeting, CIO in an elevator, you guys are wowing me with the technologies in ways I never thought of. Let's talk about the other end of it. Where are customers pushing you, saying, "You know what, you guys need to move faster." You have one customer that's on NSX, you have a bunch that are looking way past that. >> Sherry: Right, no that's a great question, and the great thing about Nutanix is we really don't say no a lot, I mean, we've got to be very thoughtful in what we sign up for, but we will innovate and collaborate with customers in every instance. So what is it that you need, you need a support on a platform? We'll give you the right timeframe to do it, but yeah, we're going to do what we can to deliver on that, so, there is a lot that's coming at us from a speed standpoint with our customers and the demands that they have but I think that's a testament to the adoption and the delight that they have of using Nutanix and wanting to expand that in their enterprise. >> Inder: And I think, to some extent, Keith, I think your question is more about where are we perhaps falling short a little bit, and I'll tell you one area where perhaps we could do better, which is for support of a wider array of platforms. So for example, when we go to Asia Pacific, a lot of our customers are telling us, gosh you got support for Dell or Lenovo or IBM, etc., but what about other platforms that are local, Hitachi or Fujitsu or Inspira or Avia, etc.? So we're going to get very disciplined and structured around it, we don't want to over commit and let anybody down, because extending support to multiple platforms is not trivial, but we want to make sure that when we commit, we say what we'll do and we do what we say. And that's a guarantee that we'd like to provide to our customers. >> Stu: Inder and Sherry, I want to give you both an opportunity: just final takeaways you want your customers to know about Nutanix as they leave the show this year. >> Well, we'd love for more customers to come onboard, one thing I've seen with our customers that are here is that they love our technology, they're delighted. We've helped change jobs and careers with many of our customers and for me that's a huge privilege. >> I'd just say that customer success is the single most important thing for us, for our customers, we might make a mistake every once in a while, but you will never find anybody who works harder on your behalf. We've got the energy, we've got the fire in the belly, we've got the agility, and we're going to do everything that it takes to make you successful, no matter what. Period, end of story. So we're all in, we hope you can be all in with us as well. >> Alright, Inder and Sherry, obviously the passion is here from you, from your customers and the team. Thanks so much for joining us today. For Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more coverage here coming from Nutanix.NEXT, New Orleans, 2018. Thanks for watching The Cube. >> Thank you. (electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Los Vegas, it's the Cube, covering ServiceNow Knowledge2018. Brought to you be ServiceNow. >> Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge18 here in Las Vegas. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with Dave Vellante, the beer and the wine are out so it's getting time to party but we have another guest here on the show, Stephen Lee, he is the senior director business development and partner solutions at Okta. Thanks so much for joining us today. >> Thank you, great to be here. >> So, just lay the scene for us, tell our viewers what Okta is and what you do. >> So, we're an identity and access management company. Cloud base, when you think about every organization, right, with all the different kinds of users, employees, partners, and contractors, there's a lot of need for them to have access to things that they need to. Where's there an application and from different devices from anywhere. Our mission really is to connect anyone to anything. There's over 4,000 organizations using our product, the likes of Nordstrom, Twilio, JetBlue. It's not just about employees, I think a lot of people think of security products, they think about employees having access to different systems, it's beyond that. When you look at the persona of users now, it's employees, it's partners, it's contractors. It's our customers, our customers' customers, which most likely would be consumers, so it's a huge space and we're definitely filling a big gap in the security space. >> So, I got to ask you, so I like the tagline connect anyone to anything, but I want you to add a word. Safely! (Rebecca laughs) Connect anyone to anything safely. >> I would add a couple more words, I think it's securely, I think it's more effectively, because it's not just a product for end users, it's also a product for IT folks, it's been a very difficult for people to solve, right, and we want to make, we want to have a solution that's easy for IT to deploy and not have to worry about maintenance, having it running in the cloud, I think it's the very same message as what ServiceNow has, which is providing the best platform so that IT can provide a good solutions for the end users. I mean we're not building a solution for people walking around here. We're helping the people here building a solutions for their audience and these are the end users. These are the consumers, so it is about easy to use, it is about security, but it has to be user-friendly, it has to be very effective, it has to be cost-effective. So you could put a lot of adverbs behind that line, I think. >> You got to nice booth here, and big meter board. Okta plus ServiceNow, better together. What makes them better together, talk about the partnerships, why better together? >> Well I think about ServiceNow as a platform, right? Yes, it does a lot of complicated, workflow, ITSM related stuff and I think at the end of the day, we're solving problems for end users. How are they coming in, how is somebody coming in to file a ticket, how is somebody coming in to request for a service, and I think Okta does the same thing, it's about providing access in a secure way for end users. One of the original integrations that we've done for ServiceNow was all about making sure that end users can get to ServiceNow easily and securely. That continues to be a main theme of our partnership. But increasingly, when you look at ServiceNow, the platform expanding to other security disciplines. The sec-ops module, that was released last year. We've done a lot of work with that, in fact, early this year we released what is called an Okta clock connect force for sec-ops. And what that does is really when you think about Okta as an identity product, the information that we learn from users and how they access various things, it's actually useful information and can be used as triggers, can be used as data points. When you look at a security analyst looking at it from the lenses of sec-ops, they get to see that data. You see an incident, what do I know about Stephen? It's just a ticket, someone logged in or someone is having trouble. The integration that we've done allows you to get additional insight about the user from within the ServiceNow module. So you understand who the user is, who he or she reports to, what have they been doing recently and it gives you much better context when it comes to solving a problem or trying to resolve an incident. That's just yet another integration that works very well together, definitely looking forward to all the new things that ServiceNow is doing. I think at the end, it's because there's such an important focus around end user that makes the two products work really well together. >> Let me ask you, it's a big space but a crowded space. I mean, you guys are doing very well. Why, how are you able to differentiate from the pack? I mean, you're kicking butt and what do you attribute your success to? >> I think it's customer first. I mean, that is the number one thing when we look at it. It's not about throwing protocols at people, what features we have and all that. I think when we work with our customers we figure out what their problems are, what is the use case, how can we help you solve your problem and I think in a big way, it's a very similar message with ServiceNow, it's not about the platform. It's about what you need, what are you trying to do for your end users and I really think that's a big part of the success. On top of the fact that the product is built on a very sound platform, we're the first cloud-based identity and access management product. We started the category and we're still on top of the category, so great product. But I think the focus around customer success is really what has kept us going. >> You said before the cameras were rolling that the tagline for ServiceNow, making work work better for people, really resonates with you. >> It does because I think you mentioned our tagline earlier, the connect anyone to anything, and I think at the end, we want to make the workplace a better place. Like I said, we're not about the folks here. We're about helping the folks at this conference build a better work environment so people can have an easier time and be more efficient, be more productive. But more importantly, be able to work in an environment that is also more secure, obviously from an identity standpoint. But it extends beyond work, I think you're also looking at us reaching out to consumers, to our customers' customers but achieving the same purpose. Making their lives easier and that's why I love that listening to the keynote today. I feel like it's a really good message and I totally agree with that message. >> Rebecca: Well Stephen, thanks so much for coming on the Cube, it's been a pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you very much. >> Dave: Thank you. >> We will have more from ServiceNow Knowledge18 and the Cube's live coverage in just a little bit. (electronic tones)

(upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are at the Palo Alto Studio to have a Cube conversation today. Conference season's slowing down a little bit so we're going to do Cube conversations in the studio so it's a little bit different format, not in the crazy madness of a conference but we're really excited to have our next guest on, he's Matt Zili, he's a VP of Product Marketing at Marketo, I think first time on theCUBE, so welcome Matt. >> Thank you very much, great to be here. >> Absolutely, so you're Marketo, Marketo's been in the marketing, automation, digital, engagement space for a long time but you guys are really starting to change the way you think about things, about engagement. Engagement is this elusive, I don't want to say Unicorn 'cause the term is overused but it is right so how do we get that deep engagement with customers, and how the companies really establish that, and that's something you guys are trying to do more work with, and help enable to do better, so how do you think about when you think about engagement? >> Yeah, absolutely, I think it's what we realized these days is the currency that every company needs to have, has to have, because if you look back over the last 10 or 15 years, what the digital world has gotten us, as companies, is volume. We can go blast a message out all over the world, and just hope that one small percentage point of those folks will actually engage with us, and that's just not going to work anymore, we're all too familiar, we kind of black out, how to ignore all of those messages, and so the real key movement forward is how the companies really deeply engage with their audience, with their customers, with their potential customers, and we're trying to help companies do that. >> The other thing that's really changed is the avenues, the venues, the potential touch points have grown so much, where there used to be in the mailbox outside your house then there was email was dominant for so long, but now it's Snapchat and Facebook and Linkedin and Twitter and all these things, which A, are so omni-channel but B, give a level of measurement opportunity that you never really had before. So how is that changing the way that marketeers think about, knowing, connecting with touching regarding a campaign etc. but again, engaging. >> Yeah, it's a great awesome opportunity on one hand, and this unbelievably significant challenge on the other, where on the positive side, we have all of these avenues for engagement, where we can try to have a connection with somebody when they're on Facebook, when they're thinking more about how a brand might intercept with their personal life, than they ever do elsewhere and that's a great opportunity for marketers 'cause in the digital world, you can measure the effectiveness of all of these things, but on the flip side, as you alluded to, we've got a new opportunity to do that everyday, some new channel, some new touch point comes up and so, as organizations, we have to get really good at managing this complexity, one, just to make sure we're in the right places, and two, to make sure that we've got a uniform, consistent, story that's being told, across all these places and we're not sending a message out on Snapchat that misaligns with what's on our website or who our brand is. >> And it's interesting we had Karen on the other day, talking about the concept of adapted engagement, she had her three As of engagememt and really, this concept of the context matters, context has always mattered, not only the channel, but the timing and just because you can, and just because you've got this massive kind of technology, can and if you will, that you can send a lot of things, a lot of ways, a lot of time, you can't, just 'cause you can, doesn't mean, you can, so when you think about adaptive and trying to be kind of responsive and in sync with the opportunity and the offer as well as the appropriateness of the timing, as well as the match with the individual at the other end of that channel, what are some of the factors that people should think about, that companies should think about is their weighing, you know I cannot just spray and pray, 24/7, that's going to just saturate and kill people. >> I think I'm going to steal your technology, cannon analogy 'cause that's right, it's a cannon that could end up killing people or certainly, killing a brand, and so the way we encourage companies to think about it today, is you have to bring together all of these different insights you might have about a potential person, customer, potential customer, and figure out how to use that, to provide something of value, to them and that's going to adapt over time, we don't have perfect visibility yet into everyone we might want to engage, we learn over time and 10, 20 years ago, the best we could do was try and understand someone's demographics and used that to make a best educated guess, a guess about what they might want. That doesn't really work all that well anymore, when we can now think about all this behavioral data, and when we learn what somebody's looking at on the Web, or on Facebook, or what they're engaging with on Snapchat, that's way more insightful for us to make an educated guess about what might provide somebody value, as the next thing we put in front of them and so, it really is this concept of just constantly adapting the experience, we're delivering to people and it should just get better and better and better over time, as we learn more about what they want and what they're looking for. >> Right, one of the interesting things we see over and over a lot of tech events, is the concept that you have your data in-house, but then there's all this public data and other sources of data, and really to grab that competitive advantage, you need to combine the proprietary data, as well as the public data, and then combine them using the algorithms to get the insight, that maybe your competitor doesn't have, how are you seeing this actually executed in the field, is it easy to do, hard to do, still early innings for people trying to figure it out or is it relatively mature in terms of people using all this different data? >> Yeah, I think there's no question people are using data, more effectively and using just more data now than ever before but it hasn't yet manifested itself in a way where they're using it to deliver the best perfect thing to every single customer, so there's still a long way to go, and some of the things that we see, hold people back is, you mentioned we've got all these different touch points and channels popping up, the scope of how data is expanding is still going far faster than we can even keep up with, and in many organizations, all of those pieces of data will sit in different silos, so even for the companies that have managed to bring it all in-house and trying to get it at least inside the walls of their company, it still probably doesn't sit in one place that will allow somebody to actually gain insights from it and then use those insights to do something and so, I think that's where we see the next few years are going to take us with a combination of AI technologies that can do a lot of the heavy lifting, of looking at the data and gleaning insights from it, to getting them at somebody's fingertip whether it's a marketer or whether it's somebody driving customer experience so they naturally use it to do something informed for a specific customer. >> Right, the other kind of concept we hear over and over and over is kind of the segmentation of one, and the industry that I think is the most interesting to watch on this is insurance, car insurance, 'cause it's easy right, 'cause it used to be your age, your sex and if you were married, and the maybe did you have a red car, and maybe did you travel more than X number of miles, but now, you know with the progressive thing you stick in the dashboard, or let's face it, your cellphone, they can know a lot more, if you roll through red lights, do you spend too much time on your couch, do you tend to drive at 2.30 a.m. on Saturday night and see other things that can really determine ultimately what your rate is. On the other hand, at some point in time, if you're a big company, the overhead of managing to that level and to segment your offerings to that level maybe exceed the value of doing that, so as you see kind of people narrowing in, honing in on their segmentation and execution, what are some of the lessons learnt about, how tight can you get that, can you have infinite number of skews to provide a slightly different flavor of your service to any number of consumers or is there some kind of happy balance that you see the world kind of moving towards? >> Yeah, I think the biggest point we make is there's no excuse for not thinking that way today, there's no excuse for making strides towards delivering on an audience of one, or customer of one. I think it varies pretty wildly by business whether you can do that in your core operations, whether an insurance company can really come up with the right package price, product etc. for that audience of one, that's a big problem certainly, but at least when we think about how we engage with our customers, there's no excuse not to think about it that way today 'cause the very least we all have at our fingertips, the technologies that will let us choose how to engage with someone, what channel to engage with them, what timing, cadence to engage with them and so we can make progress even if we're not necessarily at the point of using all this information to deliver one perfect message to one person at that exact moment. There's a lot of work to be done today to get there. >> Right, the other piece that's interesting is advocacy, and again Karen talked about that as well in her three As of measuring engagement and it's a really different type of relationship to have with a customer that's not necessarily so transactional but much more relationship much less about this transaction and much more about the lifetime value the customer and again an example we shared with Karen, is Harley Davidson is just an iconic brand that people have such a connection to, that they will tattoo it on their body which if you're a brand manager, you're going to say, well, you know that's phenomenal, so you would see advocacy in companies wanting to change the nature of the relationship with the people that buy and use their services, what are some of the best practices you see, what are some of the ways people are trying to flip the bit if you will from a transactional to a relationship type of engagement. >> Yeah, I think there's certainly those iconic brands and products that do a lot of the heavy lifting for companies to do that effectively. Harley Davidson starts with the product, starts with the motorcycle and people love that but for a lot of companies that maybe don't drive that level of passion around the product itself, that's marketing's opportunity to go in and capture that and so I think what we see the most successful and forward thinking organizations do today is think about the entire life cycle that way with an eye towards advocacy because the thing that not everybody has capitalized on today is whether we like it or not, all of our customers have a megaphone and that we know and in a lot of ways, we try to manage the negative sides of that to make sure that the negative messages aren't getting out there and avoid that but we haven't used it enough to make sure we use that to drive the positive messages out in the market and so when companies kind of shift from the transactional approach from the, I just got to acquire new customers or I've got to get these customers to buy more, to a world where they're really thinking about a group of people that could really be advocates, almost on behalf of the brand, almost like their working for the brand to do that and set up a set of initiatives to drive that, it leads to 10, 20, 30 X yields down the road, an ROI down the road because everybody does have that opportunity to be an influencer today and brands can really harness that. >> So do you think the essence of that is brands finally figuring out that they no longer have exclusive rights to control the message, I forget the tweeter, of a meme somewhere you know that your brand is no longer what you're telling people it is, your brand is now what people are telling you what it is and as you said, people didn't have the giant microphones right, they had letter to the editor, who sees it compared to literally worldwide casting ability of a message and if you create it craftily and with a little bit of humor it might pick up and go viral so is it a reaction to that or do people finally figure out that it's seems so stupid to me, obviously it's always easier to sell more chiggers than clients than to get new so why suddenly is advocacy getting the bright spotlight when this should have been something that people were executing all along? >> Yeah, I think it's like most things, it's not just marketers, customer success, everyone's understood the problem and the opportunity for a long time and social is an area that has been around long enough that I think everybody understands it's really a question of what can be done to execute on it and if 80% of marketing budgets were self spent on acquiring new customers, it's no surprise that they're not executing on it, all that effectively and so I think the transition we're going through right now is brands are starting to re-align their dollars, leverage the new technologies and point them at this area of advocacy, as much as their pointing them to other areas, versus maybe they were just of lesser importance years ago so I think everybody's known it for awhile, but they're now just finally acting on it. >> And of course the other thing now that's so different than it used to be in the past especially in large broadcast media you know people measured audience but you really couldn't measure uptake and write the classical saying, I know I'm wasting 50% of my marketing budget, I just don't know which 50% it is. The ability to measure now is higher than we've ever had, the ability to A-B task or A-B-C-D-E-F-G task is like never before at the same time again referencing our conversation before you still have to have a narrative, you still have to be kind of a personality as a brand, or else you'll just get wiped out right so it's a weird dichotomy of the soft and kind of the hard elements of going to market. >> It's exactly it, if you look at what a lot of companies have done in the last 10, 12 years is digital has exploded and certainly beyond even 12 years, there's been a shift from the emotive storytelling side of marketing over to the data driven operational side of marketing, the idea of I can send out a million emails and I know 100,000 people will open them and some subset of those will click on them and that's an important piece of marketing today certainly but I already know the needle has swung too far. When we think about the engagement economy, we think about the core of this is being able, a brand being able to engage deeply on an emotional level with their customer and audience, it requires a brand narrative, a brand story that's relevant to them, it's rolled out appropriately to them that's shared across all these channels with them 'cause if you don't have that and all you have is the operational side, you'll never be the Harley Davidson iconic brand and has that emotional connection with their customers. >> Right, okay so before I let you go, I know you guys have been doing, did a research study that's going to be coming out shortly, I wonder if you can share, preview any kind of the highlights, in terms of what was the purpose of that first off and what are some of the preliminary findings that you could share before the actual data comes out. >> Yeah, absolutely, it's been really insightful for us, what we did, is we went out and surveyed a bunch of consumers and buyers, and a bunch of marketers, and we tried to understand is the story the same across both sides, what people value, what they want, what marketers were delivering, what they think they're delivering so it's been really insightful to understand what the world looks like today when it comes to engagement and while there are a lot of insights, I think the thing that everybody has acknowledged is how important this is, how critical it is in this economy to make sure that you do have that emotional connection with the brand, if you're a consumer, somebody you want to do business with and marketers and brands acknowledge how important it is to have that with their customers, where the gaps are, is how it's being actualized, is it actually happening, the beliefs from some companies is that they're doing this incredibly effectively, and yet the feedback from the customers is that they're not, and so that divide is what we have to resolve, as brands and as companies over the next few years, otherwise someone will come in and disrupt us and take advantage of that. >> So have you found any good objective measurements that people should, I mean obviously, there's not one golden metric, we would already have known it, but what are some of the things that marketers or companies should be looking at, to see if they're doing a better job or doing a good job? >> Yeah, I think that you know without question, looking at your competitive landscape and talking to your customers in a way that can really get you that feedback, you have to seek the answers to find out how good of a job you're doing versus looking at the efforts you're putting in place, and I think that even in itself can be a challenge for a lot of companies is to really get out there and try and get an objective understanding of whether they're doing it or not, and I think when you start there, in almost every brands' case, they're going to find surprises about how their customers really feel about them, how their potential customers really feel about them and identify the opportunities to close that gap. And then of course wandering through the crazy landscape of technology to try and figure out the right things that allow them to close that gap. The good news is there's shortage of options to do that today. >> And don't send 100 question questionnaire, oh my god, I just got one from JetBlue, was happy to fill it out, I lasted I dunno, a lot of questions, I thought and then I just ran out of gas, and c'mon, it's a new world order. >> And so you wouldn't put that in a list of engaging tactics >> A little trade right, give me a little value, I'll give you a little info, value-trade, value-trade, don't get to the whole multi-variate -- >> People have seconds, you can get them for seconds, you're not going to get them for minutes or hours. >> Alright, Matt we look forward to the research coming out and again, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day. >> Appreciate it, thanks for having me. >> A pleasure, Matt Zili, he's from Marketo, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time.