>>From around the globe with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, sponsored by Intel and AWS welcome everyone to the cube live and our coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today we are joined by Andre due for, he is the general manager of Amazon location service. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Andre. >>Thanks so much, Rebecca. It's a pleasure. >>So Amazon, AWS is announcing a Amazon location service in preview. Tell us a little bit more about what it does. What was the impetus for it? >>Of course. Well, Amazon location service is a new geospatial service that makes it easy for customers on AWS to integrate location information into their applications. And when I say location information, I mean a couple of specific things, mops points of interest places, and geocodes from trusted global high quality data partners. And one of the things that's really cool about Amazon location is we enable customers to access this high-quality data in a way that's incredibly cost effective. It's up to 10 times cheaper than some of the alternatives. And so what that means for customers is they can bring to life use cases that previously would have been inconceivable because they just weren't cost effective. Additionally, Amazon location takes privacy very seriously. And so, you know, customers have told us many times that they're, they're, they're very concerned about their location information, leaving their control. Whereas with Amazon location, we keep customer's location data in their AWS account unless they decide otherwise. And finally, what we've seen with customers who are using Amazon location is they're able to move from experimentation with location ideas, to scale production, much more quickly than they otherwise could have because it's a native AWS service. So we're so excited to be announcing this >>Well, you just mentioned cost privacy scale production, three things that are definitely on customers' minds right now. Tell us a little bit more about these use cases. How are customers using it? >>Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's often easiest to understand the capabilities through the lens of a use case. Now it turns out location in, in more and more customer conversations is pervasive across a bunch of different use cases, but I'll touch on maybe just for today. So one thing that we're seeing customers commonly using location for is location-based customer engagement. And so what that means is including a location component, when you are reaching out to your customers with timely offers. So for example, when they're in close proximity to one of your retail locations, sending them an offer tends to increase their satisfaction and their conversion an additional use case that Springs to mind immediately in many of the conversations is using maps for striking visualizations of data, either showing a route between two points or dropping location pins on a map in order to enhance the visual understanding of subject matter. >>Additionally, customers tend to use Amazon location for asset tracking. They want to know where their things are in the world and be able to reason over that both in real time in order to make decisions or retrospectively in order to optimize or to audit. And additionally, um, customers also use us in end to end delivery use cases, be it last mile delivery for, uh, goods that were ordered online or, uh, food delivery, which of course is, uh, increasingly prevalent these days. And so, yeah, you know, one of the customer examples that I think is especially compelling here because it touches on a couple of these is a company called Singleton solutions and their product is called mobile log. Uh, it's effectively last mile as a service in the cloud. And what it lets customers do is manage the logistics of a delivery business. And so what mobile log and Singleton have been able to do is retire a lot of the custom code that they had built because nothing was really available to meet their location needs. They were able to consolidate their location infrastructure from multiple clouds onto just AWS, which simplifies their solution. They were able to move more quickly as they innovate on behalf of their customers. And they managed to reduce their costs while doing this by up to 60%. So I think it's a pretty cool example of what location can do for customers. >>What are some other industries and apps and applications that would benefit most from this affordable location data? >>Yeah, well, it's, uh, it tends to spend many different industries. So we're seeing a lot of uses as you can imagine in transportation and logistics and, and certainly that's, uh, an industry that's growing very quickly, um, government and public sector attempt to have a need to, uh, visualize a lot of information, uh, on, on maps. Um, we are seeing retail and folks interested in customer engagement. Um, it really is springing up everywhere and often B uh, the conversations kind of have a location component in disguise. For example, we were talking to a telecom service provider who is telling us, well, you know, I can save billions of dollars if I increase the efficiency of my truck rolls. Well, that's the location use case, right? If people are talking about, uh, actually one, one customer, uh, or a person who has used us in beta is post NL, and they're telling us, you know, if they can increase just the, um, loading factor of their trucks by 1%, uh, in, uh, over time, this is big dollar savings for them. And not, that's all about location and about optimizing, uh, the, the routing and dispatch of their vehicles. And so really it's springing up everywhere, but it doesn't always sound like a map or a geocode it's, uh, more of these business level considerations around optimization around moving faster and around serving customers more quickly. >>You mentioned a couple of, of industries and logistics areas where this is being used. What are, which customers are currently using Amazon location service? >>Well, so there are a couple that I, uh, I mentioned, so of course we're only just launching today. We've had a beta program, uh, and we have a couple of references that we can talk about publicly. So Singleton is the very first that we touched on, and this is a company that's operative in the delivery and, uh, dispatch logistics space. And so they they've been using us to, to advantage and, and have realized some pretty significant cost savings. Uh, the other company that's been, uh, experimenting with Amazon location, uh, again in sort of a similar space, but with a different geography is posted on owl. And so they're the number one, uh, e-commerce and delivery, uh, her postal logistics company in the Netherlands. And what, what they're actually using us for is to, uh, do asset tracking on their delivery roller cages in order to, uh, understand where they are in the world and make better decisions as to where they should be in relation to the demand. >>Andre, I want you to close this out here. And as you said, you launched today, you've been in beta, what is in store for 2021 with Amazon location service? What can, what can we expect? What can customers expect? >>Yeah, so we're, we're in preview today and it's an open preview, so people can, can just go to the console and directly use it. You don't need to sign up. And what we have to look forward to in the first part of 2021 is general availability of the service. And you can imagine that we'll be rolling that out over everyone regions, because there's significant demand for this all over the world. And then it's a fairly typical, uh, AWS motion where what we're going to do is listen, because 90% of our roadmap is compelled by customer requests. And so we'll be very attentive to how people are using the service, where they see additional opportunities for us to serve them better. And we will move with vigor on those. >>Great. And for customers who want to find out more, what, what should they do? >>Well, the easiest thing to do is to go to aws.amazon.com/location, and then, uh, check, check us out there and get started with the service today. >>Great, well, Andre do for, thank you so much for coming on the Cuba really interesting conversation. >>Thank you so much. It's been a privilege. >>I'm Rebecca Knight stay tuned for more of the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020.

>>From around the globe with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, sponsored by Intel and AWS welcome everyone to the cube live and our coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today we are joined by Andre due for, he is the general manager of Amazon location service. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Andre. >>Thanks so much, Rebecca. It's a pleasure. >>So Amazon, AWS is announcing a Amazon location service in preview. Tell us a little bit more about what it does. What was the impetus for it? >>Of course. Well, Amazon location service is a new geospatial service that makes it easy for customers on AWS to integrate location information into their applications. And when I say location information, I mean a couple of specific things, mops points of interest places, and geocodes from trusted global high quality data partners. And one of the things that's really cool about Amazon location is we enable customers to access this high-quality data in a way that's incredibly cost effective. It's up to 10 times cheaper than some of the alternatives. And so what that means for customers is they can bring to life use cases that previously would have been inconceivable because they just weren't cost effective. Additionally, Amazon location takes privacy very seriously. And so, you know, customers have told us many times that they're, they're, they're very concerned about their location information, leaving their control. Whereas with Amazon location, we keep customer's location data in their AWS account unless they decide otherwise. And finally, what we've seen with customers who are using Amazon location is they're able to move from experimentation with location ideas, to scale production, much more quickly than they otherwise could have because it's a native AWS service. So we're so excited to be announcing this >>Well, you just mentioned cost privacy scale production, three things that are definitely on customers' minds right now. Tell us a little bit more about these use cases. How are customers using it? >>Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's often easiest to understand the capabilities through the lens of a use case. Now it turns out location in, in more and more customer conversations is pervasive across a bunch of different use cases, but I'll touch on maybe just for today. So one thing that we're seeing customers commonly using location for is location-based customer engagement. And so what that means is including a location component, when you are reaching out to your customers with timely offers. So for example, when they're in close proximity to one of your retail locations, sending them an offer tends to increase their satisfaction and their conversion an additional use case that Springs to mind immediately in many of the conversations is using maps for striking visualizations of data, either showing a route between two points or dropping location pins on a map in order to enhance the visual understanding of subject matter. >>Additionally, customers tend to use Amazon location for asset tracking. They want to know where their things are in the world and be able to reason over that both in real time in order to make decisions or retrospectively in order to optimize or to audit. And additionally, um, customers also use us in end to end delivery use cases, be it last mile delivery for, uh, goods that were ordered online or, uh, food delivery, which of course is, uh, increasingly prevalent these days. And so, yeah, you know, one of the customer examples that I think is especially compelling here because it touches on a couple of these is a company called Singleton solutions and their product is called mobile log. Uh, it's effectively last mile as a service in the cloud. And what it lets customers do is manage the logistics of a delivery business. And so what mobile log and Singleton have been able to do is retire a lot of the custom code that they had built because nothing was really available to meet their location needs. They were able to consolidate their location infrastructure from multiple clouds onto just AWS, which simplifies their solution. They were able to move more quickly as they innovate on behalf of their customers. And they managed to reduce their costs while doing this by up to 60%. So I think it's a pretty cool example of what location can do for customers. >>What are some other industries and apps and applications that would benefit most from this affordable location data? >>Yeah, well, it's, uh, it tends to spend many different industries. So we're seeing a lot of uses as you can imagine in transportation and logistics and, and certainly that's, uh, an industry that's growing very quickly, um, government and public sector attempt to have a need to, uh, visualize a lot of information, uh, on, on maps. Um, we are seeing retail and folks interested in customer engagement. Um, it really is springing up everywhere and often B uh, the conversations kind of have a location component in disguise. For example, we were talking to a telecom service provider who is telling us, well, you know, I can save billions of dollars if I increase the efficiency of my truck rolls. Well, that's the location use case, right? If people are talking about, uh, actually one, one customer, uh, or a person who has used us in beta is post NL, and they're telling us, you know, if they can increase just the, um, loading factor of their trucks by 1%, uh, in, uh, over time, this is big dollar savings for them. And not, that's all about location and about optimizing, uh, the, the routing and dispatch of their vehicles. And so really it's springing up everywhere, but it doesn't always sound like a map or a geocode it's, uh, more of these business level considerations around optimization around moving faster and around serving customers more quickly. >>You mentioned a couple of, of industries and logistics areas where this is being used. What are, which customers are currently using Amazon location service? >>Well, so there are a couple that I, uh, I mentioned, so of course we're only just launching today. We've had a beta program, uh, and we have a couple of references that we can talk about publicly. So Singleton is the very first that we touched on, and this is a company that's operative in the delivery and, uh, dispatch logistics space. And so they they've been using us to, to advantage and, and have realized some pretty significant cost savings. Uh, the other company that's been, uh, experimenting with Amazon location, uh, again in sort of a similar space, but with a different geography is posted on owl. And so they're the number one, uh, e-commerce and delivery, uh, her postal logistics company in the Netherlands. And what, what they're actually using us for is to, uh, do asset tracking on their delivery roller cages in order to, uh, understand where they are in the world and make better decisions as to where they should be in relation to the demand. >>Andre, I want you to close this out here. And as you said, you launched today, you've been in beta, what is in store for 2021 with Amazon location service? What can, what can we expect? What can customers expect? >>Yeah, so we're, we're in preview today and it's an open preview, so people can, can just go to the console and directly use it. You don't need to sign up. And what we have to look forward to in the first part of 2021 is general availability of the service. And you can imagine that we'll be rolling that out over everyone regions, because there's significant demand for this all over the world. And then it's a fairly typical, uh, AWS motion where what we're going to do is listen, because 90% of our roadmap is compelled by customer requests. And so we'll be very attentive to how people are using the service, where they see additional opportunities for us to serve them better. And we will move with vigor on those. >>Great. And for customers who want to find out more, what, what should they do? >>Well, the easiest thing to do is to go to aws.amazon.com/location, and then, uh, check, check us out there and get started with the service today. >>Great, well, Andre do for, thank you so much for coming on the Cuba really interesting conversation. >>Thank you so much. It's been a privilege. >>I'm Rebecca Knight stay tuned for more of the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020.

[Music] Andre one of the things that have come up is your relation with Russia as we talked about so I have to ask you a direct question do you to work with sanctioned Russian entities or Russian companies shown we and c5 we do not work with any company that's sanctioned from any country including Russia and the same applies to me we take sanctions very very seriously the one thing you don't mess with is US sanctions which has application worldwide and so you always have to stay absolutely on the right side of the law when it comes to sanctions so nothing nothing that's something that's connection nets are trying to make they're also the other connection is a guy named Victor Vail Selberg Viktor Vekselberg Vekselberg to go with the Russian names as people know what is your relationship with Viktor Vekselberg so victim Viktor Vekselberg is a is a very well known Russian businessman he's perhaps one of the best known Russian businessman in the West because he also lived in the US for a period of time it's a very well-known personality in in in Europe he's a donor for example to the Clinton Foundation and he has aggregated the largest collection of Faberge eggs in the world as part of national Russian treasure so he's a very well known business personality and of course during the course of my career which has focused heavily on also doing investigations on Russian related issues I have come across Viktor Vekselberg and I've had the opportunity to meet with him and so I know him as a as a business leader but c5 has no relationship with Viktor Vekselberg and we've never accepted any investment from him we've never asked him for an investment and our firm a venture capital firm has no ties to Viktor Vekselberg so you've worked had a relationship at some point in your career but no I wouldn't on a daily basis you don't have a deep relationship can you explain how deep that relationship is what were the interactions you had with him so clarify that point so so I know Viktor Vekselberg and I've met him on more than one occasion in different settings and as I shared with you I served on the board of a South African mining company which is black owned for a period of a year and which Renova had a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and that's the extent of the contact and exposure I've had to so casual business run-ins and interactions not like again that's correct deep joint ventures are very kind of okay let's get back to c5 for a minute cause I want to ask you it but just do just a circle just one last issue and Viktor Vekselberg Viktor Vekselberg is the chairman of scope over the Russian technology innovation park that we discussed and he became the chairman under the presidency of President Dmitry Medvedev during the time when Hillary Clinton was doing a reset on Russian relations and during that time so vekselberg have built up very effective relationships with all of the or many of the leading big US technology companies and today you can find the roster of those partners the list of those partners on the scope of our website and those nuclear drove that yes Victor drove that Victor drove that during during in the Clinton Secretary of this started the scope of our project started during the the Medvedev presidency and in the period 2010-2011 you'll find many photographs of mr. vekselberg signing partnership agreements with very well known technology companies for Skolkovo and most of those companies still in one way or another remain involved in the Skolkovo project this has been the feature the article so there are I think and I've read all the other places where they wanted to make this decision Valley of Russia correct there's a lot of Russian programmers who work for American companies I know a few of them that do so there's technology they get great programmers in Russia but certainly they have technology so oracles they're ibm's they're cisco say we talked about earlier there is US presence there are you do you have a presence there and does Amazon Web service have a presence on do you see five it and that's knowing I was alright it's well it's a warning in the wrong oh sorry about that what's the Skog Obama's called spoke over so Andres Kokomo's this has been well report it's the Silicon Valley of Russia and so a lot of American companies they're IBM Oracle Cisco you mentioned earlier I can imagine it makes sense they a lot of recruiting little labs going on we see people hire Russian engineers all the time you know c5 have a presence there and does AWS have a presence there and do you work together in a TBS in that area explain that relationship certainly c5 Amazon individually or you can't speak for Amazon but let's see if I've have there and do you work with Amazon in any way there c-5m there's no work in Russia and neither does any of our portfolio companies c5 has no relationship with the Skolkovo Technology Park and as I said the parties for this spoke of a Technology Park is a matter of record is only website anyone can take a look at it and our name is not amongst those partners and I think this was this is an issue which I which I fault the BBC report on because if the BBC report was fair and accurate they would have disclosed the fact that there's a long list of partners with a scope of our project very well known companies many of them competitors in the Jedi process but that was not the case the BBC programme in a very misleading and deceptive way created the impression that for some reason somehow c5 was involved in Skolkovo without disclosing the fact that many other companies are involved they and of course we are not involved and your only relationship with Declan Berg Viktor Vekselberg was through the c5 raiser bid three c5 no no Viktor Vekselberg was never involved in c5 raiser Petco we had Vladimir Kuznetsov as a man not as a minority investor day and when we diligence him one of our key findings was that he was acting in independent capacity and he was investing his own money as a you national aniseh Swiss resident so you if you've had no business dealings with Viktor Vekselberg other than casual working c-5 has had no business dealings with with Viktor Vekselberg in a in a personal capacity earlier before the onset of sanctions I served on the board of a black-owned South African mining company and which Renault bombs the Vekselberg company as a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and my motivation for doing so was to support African entrepreneurship because this was one of the first black owned mining companies in the country was established with a British investment in which I was involved in and I was very supportive of the work that this company does to develop manganese mining in the Kalahari Desert and your role there was advisory formal what was the role there it was an advisory role so no ownership no ownership no equity no engagement you call them to help out on a project I was asked to support the company at the crucial time when they had a dispute on royalties when they were looking at the future of the Kalahari basin and the future of the manganese reserve say and also to help the company through a transition of the black leadership the black executive leadership of the cut year is that roughly 2017 so recently okay let on the ownership of c5 can you explain who owns c5 I mean you're described as the owner if it's a venture capital firm you probably of investors so your managing director you probably have some carry of some sort and then talk about the relationship between c5 razor bidco the Russian special purpose vehicle that was created is that owning what does it fit is it a subordinate role so see my capital so Jones to start with c5 razor boot code was was never a Russian special purpose vehicle this was a British special purpose vehicle which we established for our own investment into a European enterprise software company vladimir kuznetsov later invested as an angel investor into the same company and we required him to do it through our structure because it was transparent and subject to FCA regulation there's no ties back to c5 he's been not an owner in any way of c5 no not on c5 so C fibers owned by five families who helped to establish the business and grow the business and partner in the business these are blue chip very well known European and American families it's a small transatlantic community or family investors who believe that it's important to use private capital for the greater good right history dealing with Russians can you talk about your career you mentioned your career in South Africa earlier talk about your career deal in Russia when did you start working with Russian people I was the international stage Russian Russia's that time in 90s and 2000 and now certainly has changed a lot let's talk about your history and deal with the Russians so percent of the Soviet Union I think there was a significant window for Western investment into Russia and Western investment during this time also grew very significantly during my career as an investigator I often dealt with Russian organized crime cases and in fact I established my consulting business with a former head of the Central European division of the CIA who was an expert on Russia and probably one of the world's leading experts on Russia so to get his name William Lofgren so during the course of of building this business we helped many Western investors with problems and issues related to their investments in Russia so you were working for the West I was waiting for the West so you are the good side and but when you were absolutely and when and when you do work of this kind of course you get to know a lot of people in Russia and you make Russian contacts and like in any other country as as Alexander Solzhenitsyn the great Russian dissident wrote the line that separates good and evil doesn't run between countries it runs through the hearts of people and so in this context there are there are people in Russia who crossed my path and across my professional career who were good people who were working in a constructive way for Russia's freedom and for Russia's independence and that I continue to hold in high regard and you find there's no technical security risk the United States of America with your relationship with c5 and Russia well my my investigative work that related to Russia cases are all in the past this was all done in the past as you said I was acting in the interest of Western corporations and Western governments in their relations with Russia that's documented and you'd be prepared to be transparent about that absolutely that's all those many of those cases are well documented to corporations for which my consulting firm acted are very well known very well known businesses and it's pretty much all on the on the Podesta gaiting corruption we were we were we were helping Western corporations invest into Russia in a way that that that meant that they did not get in meshed in corruption that meant they didn't get blackmailed by Russia organized crime groups which meant that their investments were sustainable and compliant with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other bribery regulation at war for everyone who I know that lives in Europe that's my age said when the EU was established there's a flight of Eastern Europeans and Russians into Western Europe and they don't have the same business practices so I'd imagine you'd run into some pretty seedy scenarios in this course of business well in drug-dealing under I mean a lot of underground stuff was going on they're different they're different government they're different economy I mean it wasn't like a structure so you probably were exposed to a lot many many post-conflict countries suffer from predatory predatory organized crime groups and I think what changed and of course of my invested investigative career was that many of these groups became digital and a lot of organized crime that was purely based in the physical world went into the into the digital world which was one of the other major reasons which led me to focus on cyber security and to invest in cyber security well gets that in a minute well that's great I may only imagine some of the things you're investigated it's easy to connect people with things when yeah things are orbiting around them so appreciate the candid response there I wanna move on to the other area I see in the stories national security risk conflict of interest in some of the stories you seeing this well is there conflict of interest this is an IT playbook I've seen over the years federal deals well you're gonna create some Fahd fear uncertainty and doubt there's always kind of accusations you know there's accusations around well are they self dealing and you know these companies or I've seen this before so I gotta ask you they're involved with you bought a company called s DB advisors it was one of the transactions that they're in I see connecting to in my research with the DoD Sally Donnelly who is Sally Donnelly why did you buy her business so I didn't buy Sonny Donnelly's business again so Sally Tony let's start with Sally darling so Sally Donny was introduced to me by Apple Mike Mullen as a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Sally served as his special advisor when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Apple Mullen was one of the first operating parties which we had in c5 and he continues to serve Admiral Mullen the four start yes sir okay and he continues to serve as one of operating partners to this day salad only and that will Mike worked very closely with the Duke of Westminster on one of his charitable projects which we supported and which is close to my heart which is established a new veteran rehabilitation center for Britain upgrading our facility which dates back to the Second World War which is called Headley court to a brand-new state-of-the-art facility which was a half a billion dollar public-private partnership which Duke led and in this context that Ron Mullen and Sally helped the Duke and it's team to meet some of the best experts in the US on veteran rehabilitation on veteran care and on providing for veterans at the end of the service and this was a this was a great service which it did to the to this new center which is called the defense and national rehabilitation center which opened up last summer in Britain and is a terrific asset not only for Britain but also for allies and and so the acquisition she went on to work with secretary Manus in the Department of Defense yes in February Feb 9 you through the transaction yes in February 2017 Sally decided to do public service and support of safety matters when he joined the current administration when she left her firm she sold it free and clear to a group of local Washington entrepreneurs and she had to do that very quickly because the appointment of secretary mattis wasn't expected he wasn't involved in any political campaigns he was called back to come and serve his country in the nation's interest very unexpectedly and Sally and a colleague of us Tony de Martino because of their loyalty to him and the law did to the mission followed him into public service and my understanding is it's an EAJA to sell a business in a matter of a day or two to be able to be free and clear of title and to have no compliance issues while she was in government her consulting business didn't do any work for the government it was really focused on advising corporations on working with the government and on defense and national security issues I didn't buy Sonny's business one of c-5 portfolio companies a year later acquired SPD advisors from the owner supported with a view to establishing and expanding one of our cyber advising businesses into the US market and this is part of a broader bind bolt project which is called Haven ITC secure and this was just one of several acquisitions that this platform made so just for the record c5 didn't buy her company she repeat relieved herself of any kind of conflict of interest going into the public service your portfolio company acquired the company in short order because they knew the synergies because it would be were close to it so I know it's arm's length but as a venture capitalist you have no real influence other than having an investment or board seat on these companies right so they act independent in your structure absolutely make sure I get that's exactly right John but but not much more importantly only had no influence over the Jedi contract she acted as secretary mitosis chief of staff for a period of a year and have functions as described by the Government Accounting Office was really of a ministerial nature so she was much more focused on the Secretary's diary than she was focused on any contracting issues as you know government contracting is very complex it's very technical sally has as many wonderful talents and attributes but she's never claimed to be a cloud computing expert and of equal importance was when sally joined the government in february 17 jeddah wasn't even on the radar it wasn't even conceived as a possibility why did yet I cannot just for just for the record the Jedi contract my understanding is that and I'm not an expert on one government contracting but my understanding is that the RFP the request for proposals for the July contract came out in quarter three of this year for the first time earlier this year there was a publication of an intention to put out an RFP I think that happened in at the end of quarter one five yep classic yeah and then the RFP came out and called a three bits had to go in in November and I understand a decision will be made sometime next year what's your relationship well where's she now what she still was so sunny left finished the public service and and I think February March of this year and she's since gone on to do a fellowship with a think-tank she's also reestablished her own business in her own right and although we remain to be good friends I'm in no way involved in a business or a business deal I have a lot of friends in DC I'm not a really policy wonk of any kind we have a lot of friends who are it's it's common when it administrations turnover people you know or either appointed or parked a work force they leave and they go could they go to consultancy until the next yeah until the next and frustration comes along yeah and that's pretty common that's pretty cool this is what goes on yeah and I think this whole issue of potential conflicts of interest that salad only or Tony the Martino might have had has been addressed by the Government Accounting Office in its ruling which is on the public record where the GAO very clearly state that neither of these two individuals were anywhere near the team that was writing the terms for the general contract and that their functions were really as described by the GAO as ministerial so XI salient Antonia was such a long way away from this contact there's just no way that they could have influenced it in in in any respect and their relation to c5 is advisory do they and do they both are they have relations with you now what's the current relationship since since Sally and Tony went to do public service we've had no contact with them we have no reason of course to have contact with them in any way they were doing public service they were serving the country and serving the nation and since they've come out of public service we've we've not reestablished any commercial relationship so we talked earlier about the relation with AWS there's only if have a field support two incubators its accelerator does c5 have any portfolio companies that are actually bidding or working on the Jedi contract none what Santa John not zero zero so outside of c5 having relation with Amazon and no portfolios working with a Jedi contract there's no link to c5 other than a portfolio company buying Sally Donnelly who's kind of connected to general mattis up here yeah Selleck has six degrees of separation yes I think this is a constant theme in this conspiracy theory Jonas is six degrees of separation it's it's taking relationships that that that developed in a small community in Washington and trying to draw nefarious and sinister conclusions from them instead of focusing on competing on performance competing on innovation and competing on price and perhaps that's not taking place because the companies that are trying to do this do not have the capability to do so Andre I really appreciate you coming on and answering these tough questions I want to talk about what's going on with c5 now but I got to say you know I want to ask you one more time because I think this is critical you've worked for big-time company Kroll with terminus international market very crazy time time transformation wise you've worked with the CIA in Quantico the FBI nuclei in Quantico on a collaboration you were to know you've done work for the good guys you have see if I've got multiple years operating why why are you being put as a bad guy here I mean you're gonna you know being you being put out there with if you search your name on Google it says you're a spy all these evil all these things are connecting and we're kind of digging through them they kind of don't Joan I've had the privilege of a tremendous career I've had the privilege of working with with great leaders and having had great mentors if you do anything of significance if you do anything that's helping to make a difference or to make a change you should first expect scrutiny but also expect criticism when that scrutiny and criticism are fact-based that's helpful and that's good for society and for the health of society when on the other hand it is fake news or it is the construct of elaborate conspiracy theories that's not good for the health of society it's not good for the national interest is not good for for doing good business you've been very after you're doing business for the for the credibility people questioning your credibility what do you want to tell people that are watching this about your credibility that's in question again with this stuff you've done and you're continuing to do what's the one share something to the folks that might mean something to them you can sway them or you want to say something directly what would you say the measure of a person it is his or her conduct in c-five we are continuing to build our business we continue to invest in great companies we continue to put cravat private capital to work to help drive innovation including in the US market we will continue to surround ourselves with good people and we will continue to set the highest standards for the way in which we invest and build our businesses it's common I guess I would say that I'm getting out as deep as you are in the in term over the years with looking at these patterns but the pattern that I see is very simple when bad guys get found out they leave the jurisdiction they flee they go do something else and they reinvent themselves and scam someone else you've been doing this for many many years got a great back record c5 now is still doing business continuing not skipping a beat the story comes out hopefully kind of derail this or something else will think we're gonna dig into it so than angle for sure but you still have investments you're deploying globally talk about what c5 is doing today tomorrow next few months the next year you have deals going down you're still doing business you have business out there our business has not slowed down for a moment we have the support of tremendous investors we have the support of tremendous partners in our portfolio companies we have the support of a great group of operating partners and most important of all we have a highly dedicated highly focused group of investment teams of very experienced and skilled professionals who are making profitable investments and so we are continuing to build our business we have a very full deal pipeline we will be completing more investment transactions next week and we are continue to scalar assets under management next year we will have half a billion dollars of assets under management and we continue to focus on our mission which is to use private capital to help innovate and drive a change for good after again thank you we have the story in the BBC kicked all this off the 12th no one's else picked it up I think other journals have you mentioned earlier you think this there's actually people putting this out you you call out let's got John wheeler we're going to look into him do you think there's an organized campaign right now organized to go after you go after Amazon are you just collateral damage you mentioned that earlier is there a funded effort here well Bloomberg has reported on the fact that that one of the competitors for this bit of trying to bring together a group of companies behind a concerted effort specifically to block Amazon Web Services and so we hear these reports we see this press speculation if that was the case of course that would not be good for a fair and open and competitive bidding process which is I think is the Department of Defense's intention and what is in the interests of the country at a time when national security innovation will determine not only the fate of future Wars but also the fate of a sons and daughters who are war fighters and to be fair to process having something undermine it like a paid-for dossier which I have multiple sources confirming that's happened it's kind of infiltrating the journalists and so that's kind of where I'm looking at right now is that okay the BBC story just didn't feel right to me credible outlet you work for them you did investigations for them back in the day have you talked to them yes no we are we are we are in correspondence with the BBC I think in particular we want them to address the fact that they've conflated facts in this story playing this parlor game of six degrees of separation we want them to address the important principle of the independence of the in editorial integrity at the fact that they did not disclose that they expert on this program actually has significant conflicts of interests of his own and finally we want them to disclose the fact that it's not c5 and Amazon Web Services who have had a relationship with the scope of our technology park the scope of our technology park actually has a very broad set of Western partners still highly engaged there and even in recent weeks of hosted major cloud contracts and conferences there and and all of this should have been part of the story in on the record well we're certainly going to dig into it I appreciate your answer the tough questions we're gonna certainly look into this dossier if this is true this is bad and if there's people behind it acting behind it then certainly we're gonna report on that and I know these were tough questions thanks for taking the time Andre to to answer them with us Joan thanks for doing a deep dive on us okay this is the Q exclusive conversation here in Palo Alto authority narc who's the founder of c-5 capital venture capital firm in the center of a controversy around this BBC story which we're going to dig into more this has been exclusive conversation I'm John Tory thanks for watching [Music] you

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering HoshoCon 2018! Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Las Vegas for the first security blockchain conference's inaugural event, HoshoCon, and it's all about the top brains in the industry coming together, with experience and tech chops to figure out the future in security. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. Our next guest, Andre McGregor, who's the partner and head of global security for TLDR. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you have a background, we were just talking off-camera, FBI, you've been doing the cyber for a long time, cyber-security, mostly enterprise-grade, large-scale. Now we're in crypto, where you have small set of teams, running massive scale, with money involved. >> Correct. So guess what, money attracts. >> Right. People who want it, want that money. Lot of hacks, $400 million in Japan, plus 60 million over here, you add it all up, there's a billion so far this year, who knows what really the number is, it's pretty big. >> It is, and what's concerning and the reason why I came over in this space was the number of hacks that were happening. My company, we get probably a call a week, whether it's high net worth individuals, CEO, exchanges, we've helped a couple, some that you'd know of if I told you who they were, trying to get out of a very bad situation. And interim response has been big, but what we've learned is that it's the same old fraud, the same old security tactics that are being used against some of these crypto-companies. >> And we've seen it all the time, everyone's had fraud alerts on their credit card, this is like classic blocking and tackling, at a whole 'nother level. >> It is, because if you think about it from, like a traditional start-up, you have a company that's small, they have time to develop their MVP, they go out and do maybe a seed round, friends and family, they're sort of ramping up over time, whereas we basically flipped the model upside-down, the same six founders now have $10 million worth of crypto, and they're not protecting it in the ways they think they should, because they're in hyper-growth mode. So the bad guys have determined that as a great place to target, and now as we see in the news, it's actually happening. >> Yeah, and Hartej, the co-founder of Hosho, was just one talking about physical security, in the sense of you got to watch out where you go too now, it's not just online security, it's physical security. So start-ups have that kind of fast and loose kind of culture. >> Well, if you think about it, traditional security in corporations, I can put everyone in a building, I have this similar or same network egress points, I can protect those, I can do the gates, guards, guns, perimeters around, but I got people working from home now in the crypto space, everyone's got their own setup. If someone's in an audience, they say oh, I've been in the blockchain space since 2010 or 11, I can make assumptions about them, about their financial worth, and other people are doing the same, but having nefarious reasons. >> Yeah, you connected the dots okay, it was $0.22 in 2011, so therefore, if they had kept a little bit of Bitcoin-- >> They would be doing very well. >> They're a target. >> Therefore, they're a target now. So when you think about it, you put all those scams together, it becomes sort of a hot topic for-- >> I just got into crypto. (laughs) >> Good answer, good answer. >> Alright, so let's talk about this security hack. Because obviously, in the enterprise tech, we cover a lot of those events across the year. IoT Edge is a huge topic, cloud computing booming, so now you have a lot of compute, which is good, and for bad actors too. So you have now a service area that's now, no perimeter, there's no egress points to manage. Is there a digital way to kind of map this out, and does blockchain give us any advantages or is there anything on the horizon that you see, where we can, in digital form? >> Well, I mean the true reason I came to the blockchain space, having worked hundreds of victim notifications and several dozen actual intrusions, from large intrusions at banks that are top five in the world, all the way down to small core defense contractors, you realize it's always a server you didn't know about, credentials that had more access than they should, obviously gaining access to a centralized server, that then gets exposed and allows that data to be leaked out. So the idea of blockchain and being able to decentralize, distribute that data, own it, and keep it cryptographically pure, and also being able to essentially remove the single source of failure that we saw in a lot of these hacks is exciting. Obviously, blockchain is also not the answer to everything. So in some ways, the spread sheet is still a spread sheet, and the MongoDB will still be the MongoDB, but-- >> The post-it next to your computer, your private key on it. >> But at the same point in time, it all comes down to cyber-hygiene, right? I mean, the stuff that we're looking at, the hacks that we're seeing, the hacks that I'm dealing with and my company dealing with, day in and day out, are not sophisticated. They may be sophisticated actors, but they're using insophisticated means, and of course, I hate to harp on it, but e-mail is still the number one intrusion vector, we all have it, we all use it. You could take stats from the FBI that says 92%, you could take stats from Verizon that says 93%, but that will be the number one way in. >> And phishing is the classic attack point. >> It will always be, because-- >> It's easy. >> I can manipulate people, I find the right opportunity, I always say even I've been phished. It happens, the way your mind is, it's just how you react, is what we need to teach people. >> It's really clicking on that one thing, that just takes one time. >> Yep. >> A PDF that you think is a document from work, or potentially a job opportunity, a new thing, sports scores, your favorite team, girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, I mean, you don't know! >> But, I'm going to challenge you on this, you get, you click on that bad link, or you feel like your computer has been hacked, who do you call? Do you actually have someone that you can call? There's no cyber 911. Unless you are a high net worth individual, or being targeted by a nation-state, you're not calling the FBI. So who do you call? And that's a problem that we have in our industry right now. I mean, I guess I've been the person that people have been calling, which is fine, I want to help them. 12 years as a firefighter on top of my FBI career, I'm used to helping people in time of need. But really, in the grand scheme of things, there's not enough Mandiants or Verizons are too big. So for these smaller, six-person companies, that don't have $500,000 to spend on instant response, they actually have no one to call when they actually do click something bad. >> And the people they punch in a call, the ones that aren't actually there to help them. Sometimes they get honey-potted into another vector. >> Sure. >> Which is hey, how can I help you? >> Or I even challenge it a bit further. You call any of these companies when your phone has been hacked, you SIM-swap, whatever it is, and you need to sign a master services agreement, you need to go through all the legalese, while you're actively being hacked. Like, it's happening hour after hour, and you're seeing it, your accounts are being compromised and being taken over, and you're trying to find outside counsel to do redline. So in emergency services, we say, don't exchange business cards at the disaster site. It's not the time that you should be saying hi, I'm introducing myself, we should figure out all the retainers, inter-response, legal questions beforehand, so that at 2:00 in the morning, someone calls, and you have someone pick up the phone. >> Yeah, and you know what the costs are going to be, 'cause it's solve the problem at hand, put out that fire, if you will. Okay, so I got to ask you a question on how do people protect themselves? 'Cause we know Michael Terpin's doing a fireside chat, it's well known that he sued AT&T, he had his phone SIM swapped out, this is a known vector in the crypto community. Most people maybe in the mainstream might not know it. But you know, your phone can be hacked. >> Yes. >> Simple two-factor authentication's not enough. >> Correct. >> What is the state-of-the-art solution for people who want to hold crypto, any meaningful amount, could be casual money, to high net worth individual wants to have a lot of crypto. >> I mean, I spent a good amount of my time talking about custody. We've sort of pivoted off to a new part of our business line, that deals specifically around institutional custody solutions, and helping people get through this particular process. But we all know, especially from that particular case, that SMS compromises, after account takeover of a phone, is high. Hardware tokens are always going to be something that I'm going to, Harp or YubiKey, or something like that, where I'm still having the ability to keep a remote adversary away from being able to attack my system that has my private keys, or whatever high-value data I have on it. But if I think about it at the end of the day, I'm going to need to transfer that risk. I would like to say that we can transfer all risk, but instead for the people that have a lot of crypto, you're going to need to look for a good custody solution, you're going to need to look and trust the team, you're going to need to look and trust the technology they have, and you're going to have to get insurance. Because there are so many vectors, in a certain point in time, we can't go back to the wild west, where we're actually >> The insider job is, is really popular now too. >> It is, but there are ways around the collusion, counterparty, third party risk of ensuring that not one person can take the billion dollars worth of crypto and run away off to Venezuela and never appear again. But again, it comes down to basic hygiene. I ask people, I've surveyed hundreds of people in the crypto space, and I ask simple questions like VPNs, and I'm still getting a third to a half of people are using VPNS. Very simple things that people are not doing. When you looks at password for example, if anyone still has a password under 12 characters, then game over. I mean, there are a variety of ways of hacking them. I can use GPU servers to do them very quickly. I won't go into all the different options that are there. People still-- >> So 12 characters, alphanumeric obviously, with-- >> With special characters as well. >> Special characters. >> But the assumption, let's just make the assumption, that either those passwords have been cracked already, because they've already been dumped, people share passwords, they get used again, and then the entropy is exponentially higher with every single character after 12. So my password's 22 characters, sure it's a pain to type it in, but when you think about it, at the end of the day, when I combine that with a password manager that also has a YubiKey that's a hardware token, and I require that access all the time, then I don't run into the problem that someone's going to compromise a single system to get into multiple systems. >> And then also, I know there's a lot of Google people as well, they're looking at security at the hardware level, down to the firmware. >> Sure, sure. >> There's all kinds of-- >> I mean, obviously, you could use the TPM chip as well, and that's something that we should be better at, as a society. >> So while I got you here, I might as well ask you about the China super micro modchip baseboard management controller, BMC, that was reported in Bloomberg, debunked, Apple and Amazon both came out and said no, that's been confirmed. They shift their story a little bit too, the reality probably there is some mods going on, it's manufactured in China. I mean, it's a zero-margin business going to zero, why not just let the Chinese continue to develop, and have a higher-value security solution somewhere else, that's what some people are discussing, like okay, like the DRAM market was. >> Yep. >> Let the Japanese own that, they did, and then Intel makes the Pentium. Wall Street Journal reported that, Andy Kessler. So the shifts in the industry, certainly China's manufacturing the devices. There's no surprise when you go to China, and if you turn on your iPhone, it says Apple would like to push an update, but that's not Apple, it's a forged certificate, pretty much public knowledge. The DNS is controlled by China, and a certificate, these are things that they can control, that's, this is the new normal. >> It, it-- >> If you know the hardware, you can exploit it. >> We've been dealing with supply-chain issues since Maxtor hard drives in Indonesia. So was I shocked when I hear stories about that? No, I'm sort of scared myself into a corner, working in skiffs over the years and reading the various reports that come out about supply chain poisoning. >> Certainly possible. >> It's happening. I mean, it's just to what extent is still something that may or may not be known to its full extent, but it's something that will happen, always happens, and will continue to happen. And so at a certain point in time, capitalism does step in and says alright, well, guess what, China, the way I see it is, China wants to be a super-power. At a certain point, they know that people are looking at them, and saying we can't trust you. So they're going to clean up their house, just like anyone else. >> It's inevitable for them. >> It is inevitable. Because they need to show that they can be a trusting force, in the world economy. And at the same time, we're going to have competition out there that's essentially going to say, alright, we can actually prove to have a much better, stronger, validated supply chain that you'll use. >> I mean, IoT and blockchain, great solutions for supply chain. >> 100%. >> I mean, so this is where-- >> I mean, we're talking, I mean, I was actually on a plane flying from Phoenix, to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I was sitting next to a guy, who was just like, I just want to use a blockchain to be able to deal with a supply chain around compromised food. So in the sense that if you think about it, fish for example, there's a lot of fake fish, fake type of tuna and other stuff that's out there, that people don't know the difference. But the restaurants are paying double, triple the amount of money for it. You start taking things like elephant tusks, you take things like just being able to track things that no one's really thinking about, and you're just like huh, I never thought of it that way. So at the end of the day, I still get surprised with what people are thinking about, that they can do with the blockchain. >> So Andre, question for you here, this event, what's the impact of this event and for the industry, in your opinion? Obviously, a lot of smart people here talking, candidly, sometimes maybe a little bit contentious about philosophies, regulation, no regulation, self-governance, lot of different things being discussed as exploration, to a new proficiency level that we need to get to. What are some of the hallway conversations you're hearing, and involved in? >> A lot of mine are obviously around custody. That is the topic of the moment. And for me, I'm in learning mode. I recognize that I've spent a lot of time in cyber-security. However, whereas it relates to blockchain and digital asset custody, whether it's utility tokens or security tokens, I'm on the CFTC Technology Advisory Committee, specifically, with cyber-security and custody, and so I want to take in as much information as I can, bring it back to the committee, bring it back to the commissioners, and help them create the proper regulations and standards, whether it's through an SRO, or it's through the government itself. >> For the folks that may watch this video later, that are new to the area, what does custody actually mean? Obviously, holding crypto, but define custody in context of these conversations, what is it, what's the threshold issues that are being discussed? >> Sure. I mean, to break it down, custody is very similar to a bank. So you are, you're saying I have a lot of X. It could be baseball cards, it could be gold bars, it could be fiat cash. And I want to have someone hold it, and I'm going to trust them with that. Of course, I'm transferring that risk, and with that, I have an expectation to have a qualified custodian, that has rules and regulations of how they're going to actually manage it, how they're going to control it, ensure that the risk, that people aren't going to take it. It could be, again, the Monet, it could be the Johnny Bench Ricky card, it could be 100 million blocks of gold. But I also want to have a level of insurance. That insurance could come from the insurance industry themselves, and allowing me to protect it in case something does happen to that, or the government. The FDIC, $250,000 for your bank account is a type of insurance that people are using. By the end of the day, from an institutional perspective, you want a pure custodian that takes all the risk. The government wants to say a certain point, that that custodian can allow for margin call, so that the client can't come in and say, well I'm not going to pay out $100 million worth of crypto, and I'm going to seize, or seizure of funds as well. And that's what's being set up right now. Traditional banks are not ready to handle that. Traditional auditing firms, like PWC or Ernst & Young, are still trying to figure out how they'd even be given a qualified opinion, as it relates to how-- >> So it's not so much that they are not have the appetite to do it, they don't have systems, they don't have expertise, >> They don't have systems, they don't have expertise, >> They don't have workflows. >> And right now, things are so new and so volatile, that they're sort of almost putting their toe in the water, but really not sure what the temperature is yet of the water to hop in. >> If someone wants to go to court, you say hey, prove it. Well, it's encrypted, I don't know who did it. >> Well, and the thing is is that when you have 53 states and territories with different money-transmitting laws, on top of the countless federal agencies and departments that are managing that, it is hard to come to consensus. It is much easier in a place like Bermuda, where the government is small enough where everyone can get together pretty quickly, have consensus on an opinion of how they want to deal with the crypto market, deal with custody, pass a regulation, and what's nice about Bermuda is it has crown ascendancy, so the UK government still approves it. >> And they move fast on the regulation side. They literally just passed-- >> They are the only jurisdiction that has a fully complete law surrounding cryptocurrency. >> You're bullish on Bermuda. >> I am, because I saw the efficiency there. And I expressed my same opinion with the CFTC, when I was doing my hearing last week, that it's nice to see the speed, but it's also a small island that allows for that speed. >> And they have legitimate practices that have been going on for years in other industries. >> Right, so there's no dirty money, there's no anything that people are sort of concerned with, they have the same AML, KYC, anti-money laundering and know your customer regulations that you would expect if you had your money in the United States. >> Yeah, we had a chance to interview the honorable charge there. >> Premier Burt, oh very nice. >> Yeah, he's great, and Toronto, so it's awesome. >> Nice. >> Alright, so final takeaway, for this show here, what's your takeaway about this event, the impact to the industry? >> This is a very important event, because I think people are still trying to get their footing around blockchain, they're still trying to get their footing around digital asset protections. And if we can get the smart people in one room, and they can share knowledge, and then we can come together as a community, and create some standards that make sense, then we're protecting the world. >> Well Andre, I'm glad you're in the industry, 'cause your expertise and background on the commercial side and government side certainly lend well to the needs. (laughs) So to speak. We need you, we need more of you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate your commentary and your insight. It's theCUBE, bringing the insights here, we are live in Las Vegas for HoshoCon, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, we'll be back with more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We are live here in Las Vegas at the Sands, along with Stu Miniman. I'm John Walls. You're watching theCUBE, of course, Dell Technologies World 2018. It's now a pleasure to welcome to the set, we have Bryan Bond, director of IT Infrastructure at Siemens eMeter. Bryan, thank you for being with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> John: And Andre Leibovici, who is the Vice President of Solutions and Alliances at Datrium. Andre, good afternoon to you. Good to see you. >> Great to see you. >> Alright, Bryan, tell us about Siemens eMeter, first, just for viewers who might not be familiar with the company and your mission. >> eMeter, basically, is a software development company. We do enterprise-level software for utilities, so gas, power, water, just about anything that has a meter. We do not make meters, but we deal with all the data that comes from those meters. So, data acquisition, meter data management, loss prevention, all those types of things that come from that data that's leaving your house or your business. We deal with that for the utilities. So, back-in billing systems, longterm data analytics, all of those types of things, that's what we do. >> Yeah, so, Bryan, most companies I talk to, it's like your industry's changing so fast, digital transformation, software, everything. Utilities are considered by most to be one of the slower moving pieces, so what's the reality in your world? >> It's like selling to a rock. (Stu laughs) A rock, right? It's tough, historically, it is very tough. Especially in the United States, with PUC regulations, with the way you can charge customers and can't, it makes it very hard. And I wish I was a real expert at that type of stuff, but... It's a slow-moving process. The good news is most countries in the planet have decided that they need to go full-on smart grid and they need to do it fast. So, in a lot of countries in Europe, there's an edict out, we're going to do this and that has helped move this along. So it's very helpful to us, as a business. I also think it's very helpful to us in general, you know, on the planet, being able to manage grids better and more efficiently. >> Okay, so we're not going to be talking about power grids and all the things on the utility. You're an IT guy. And that's what we love talking about on theCUBE here. So, give us a thumbnail sketch of your environment, your purview. What's going on? >> All right. So, like I said, so we're a software development house. It's all developers: dev test QA, sales, support, you know, all that type of stuff. I'm fortunate to be part of a very large company, so I don't have to worry about e-mail, SharePoint sites, or any of that stuff. I get to deal with the real fun stuff, which is our product, how it's deployed, how it's developed and tested. We're a pretty much a 100% virtualized. VMware shop. We use VMware-based cloud services for the appropriate things for that. And we do all of that work ourself with our own team. So we have a small team in the U.S., we have a small team in India, and we handle all of that ourselves, we don't really outsource any of that. >> Alright, so Andre, I want to pull you in here. You're software development in VMware environment. Brings me back; I remember early days of VMware was always only for test dev. Today, I hear developers, I hear this stuff, and it's like, "Oh, isn't that kind of public cloud "and some of those things?" So, give us your viewpoint on customers like Bryan and what kind of things Datrium brings to that environment, obviously virtualized and all that. >> Yeah, no, that's a good point. So... All types of customers know suddenly looking at how they can leverage private cloud, but also public cloud. Create the ideal, hybrid cloud. What does that mean, right? So we have Fortune 100 companies like Siemens who are leveraging our technology to deploy the private cloud, run the VMware infrastructure on us. At the same time, create, you know, DR strategies to their secondary sites. But there is also those customers who are looking to, "How can I actually push workloads to the cloud? "How can I create a strategy around disaster recovery "to the cloud?" And I believe that, as part of our journey as a company, embracing private data centers, we got to embrace, also, the cloud. And this is the next big thing for us at Datrium. Where are we going to help customers on the journey to take their workloads running on-premise to the cloud, but at the same time enabling them to use as as DR and also move back when needed. I may as well just spill the beans here. I'm not sure if I'm getting trouble with marketing or not. >> John: I'm sure you're not. >> So we actually releasing very soon a fully orchestrated DR from our platform to the VMware cloud, to VMC. Fully orchestrated and enables you to fire over environment to the cloud and back, once your DR site or your primary site is actually back. There's a lot of promise on this market. There's a lot of companies doing, saying that they would do, but, you know, I see that's something that customers are really excited... >> You know, how does it work when you're dealing with a customer who is dealing with a customer, who's dealing with customers who... You know, privacy's essential, right? And there's a lot of concern... They have to be the customer of a utility. So how do you treat them, you know, because they have very unique needs, I would assume and that's a major consideration, because of their position with their customer. I mean, that's got to create a new dynamic, or an interesting dynamic, for both of you to handle. >> Yeah, it does. You know, from a development standpoint, you know, you may not be actually dealing with that particular customer's data, but you're helping that customer deal with that data. So, we're having to go through and make sure that our software doesn't have any holes in it and it's patchable, and that it follows, you know, simple guidelines. But, at the same time, we make recommendations to customers all the time, you know. "Well, how are you guys doing X, Y, Z in-house, "because you seem to be doing okay." And we say, "Well, we're using this particular platform." And, their encryption is probably the best there is right now out there. De-duped encryption, it's just fantastic. And across different storage arrays. And being able to that to the cloud and be encrypted there, and not have to worry about that is a big bonus. And that's definitely something that we look at. Obviously, we don't encrypt all of our data, because a lot of it's just nonsense. But, we do have stuff that we do that with. And we do it both for testing purposes and to prove that this meets the requirements of the customer. Because those requirements are different, not just in different countries, but in every state you go to. So, being able to provide that level of assurance of yeah you can meet your requirements with our software regardless of what platform you're running on. >> Bryan, you mentioned a couple of features there. But I wonder if you could back us up a second. You've got a virtualized environment. There's, you know, so many options that you can choose on there. Walk us a little bit through the problems that you were having, the decision process, and ultimately what led to Datrium. >> So... The set of primary goals for us was the typical thing you see in IT is you're doing the same thing for a long period of time. You're buying the same stuff, you buy more of it, you renew, and then they tell you that the price is going to go way up on support. So you buy a new one and start over again, right? The hockey stick approach. And so that's the time I like to actually stop and say, "Hey, am I doing this right, still?" Because what I did five years ago may not be right, you know, going forward, knowing what the changes are in the business. We were looking for great cost to capacity. Right? And ease of management and overall cost of the deployment. And when we started looking at all the different players in the space... For us, the big thing was going to NFS. So, single file system for management. Prior to that, we were either fibre channel on or iSCSCI. So, mini management points. Hundreds of LUNs. Hundreds of LUNs. We're managing storage, right? A small group of people, three, four guys? You're spending 20 hours a week managing storage? That's nuts, right? So, day one, we put these guys in in a POC. And my guys are like, "This stuff's never leaving." Because now I'm down to one management point, right? Six months, seven months later, I'm down six hundred LUNs from where I was with three management points. I don't manage storage anymore. None of my guys manage storage anymore. That's a hidden cost, you know? And I'm not suggesting reduction in FTE or anything like that. I'm saying, "Oh, now those guys can go work "on operating system patching." You know, the other paying points that you've got in the business, rather than managing, you know, that platform. So, all of those things rolled in together. And when we tried to compare them to other vendors, we couldn't get an apples to apples comparison. We had to go with multiple vendors to get the same performance, to get the same capacity, and we could never get the pricing. The best-case scenario we got for capacity and performance was three times the cost. Best-case scenario. And I still had to manage LUNs. >> Yeah, Andre, I used to always joke simplicity in the enterprise was an oxymoron, because there's so much happening. You hear, "Okay, get rid of one thing, I got to patch the other thing." There's no such thing as eliminating bottlenecks, you just move them. But, you know, sounds like some common problems we've been hearing out there. What's typical about his environment? What are you hearing from customers in general that Datrium's helping? >> So, I think the first point is simplicity. And it's something that I know we've been evolving, it's a journey not only for Datrium, but the whole data center industry, right? Went through ACI and now it's open conversions. So the whole simplification of the data center and make sure that most of the task can be automated. So some of the things that we do, that we simplify from a management perspective: we have no knobs, you don't decide if it's compression, the de-duplication enable, the erasure codings. Everything is owned by default and that's the way it's going to be because it doesn't make sense for an organization with thousands of virtual machines and applications to start tweaking every single knob to make sure they're going to get the best possible performance. Across the board, once we've actually verified, you might get like one or 2% CPU back. So, simplicity's a big point. Also, the other point that we mitigate in the organization, especially compared to ACI's solutions, is the data resiliency. So we actually offer enterprise-grade data resiliency that for ACI... And when talking about evolution with data center, you know, taking like putting SSDs into the servers, ACI clusters, and moving forward. So we actually make all the management of this SSDs much simpler. I forgot the line, where I was going to, but I... (laughs) I think the message is simplicity, skill ability, back data resiliency. Making sure you get enterprise-greater data resiliency in the data center. And you don't compromise on that. You get capacity, data resiliency, simplicity at the same time. >> Keep it simple, make it work. >> Andre: Exactly. >> Right. Faster. Gentleman, thanks for joining us. We appreciate the time. Thanks for telling the Siemens eMeter story. We look forward to seeing you down the road. And good luck, continue success at Datrium, as well. Thanks, Andre. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Alright, thanks for having us. >> Back with more. You're watching Dell Technologies World 2018 right here on theCUBE. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube. Covering VM World 2017 brought to you by VM ware and it's ecosystem partner. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back, we are here on the ground at the VM village live in Las Vegas at VMworld 2017. People buzzing around us here on the ground floor in the hang space, I'm John Ferrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Craig Nunez, Chief VP of Marketing at Datrium, Andre Lebosi? >> Lebosi. >> VP Solutions and Alliances at Datrium. Welcome to The Cube, great to see you. >> I've been looking forward to this since I arrived in Vegas, man. (laughter) >> You guys are the hottest start-up right now on the track in Silicon Valley. A lot of people talking about you guys. Want to get this out there. Give you a minute to just talk about Datrium. You guys are a new model emerging, some real pros. David Doman everyone knows about your success with that. Frank's Loop and that went that way. You guys have a great team of XVM guys. >> Craig: Yes. >> So you're working on a really compelling unique thing but it's getting traction so give a minute to explain what Datrium is. >> In simple terms, we are a very different take on conversions. We were conversing VM ware and Linux virtualization even bare metal container hosts with your primary storage we leveraged host Flash for that with secondary storage and archived to cloud. All in one super simple system. And I mean, what a lot of our customers kind of tell us, wow you are a simpler more scalable kind of nutanix that meets rubrik. You're like this love child of nutanix and rubrik. (laughter) They just love it 'cause it's one thing that does it all, super simple. >> A lot of free love going around this generation. (laughter) You got AWS and VM ware bonding together. Google playing in here, it's like the 60's all over again. (laughter) >> Yeah, yeah, not that I remember. >> Tech B generation.6 >> Dave: Summer love 2017. Summer of love, that I'm going to use that. >> Okay love child between rubrick and nutanix. What specifically does that look like? Just clarify one from a product p6erspective. >> First of all there is absolutely zero Call it, HCI cluster administration and so you know growing is as simple as adding a server. Adding capacity, you add those independently as you need it, so it's super economic. Everything runs fast 'cause it runs right out of Flash in your server adjacent to your VM. Again no back up silo, you take care all of your protection and archiving to the cloud with the same console that you're running your business on. So it's in a nutshell what you get. >> So contrast that Andre with the classical hyper-converged infrastructure in terms of how it's scales and how it's managed. >> Yeah I know that's a good question. So if you think about hyper-convergence. It was great, it really changed the years. In many ways it simplified, you remove the no silos that san was creating complexity around scalability or configuring rate, lunz, zoning. All the things that you'd specialize as skill to manage, right? And as you know, as you move along in your journey in the data center, you end up with multiple different vendors. They have different skill sets to manage. So HCI really changed the game in that way. But it also created different challenges for the data center. And we were lucky enough that HCI's only starting, right? This whole thing about converging is only getting started. So one of the first problems that we are dress is being able to scale performance, independent of capacity. So we've hyper-converged for the most part. You know, if you might want more capacity you need to have a computer, if you need a computer, you need more capacity. So we enable customers to go in different directions as needed. We also enable customers to bring their own existing environment into the solution. With HCI generally speaking, you need to buy that specific appliance or that specific HCL and sort of like pour everything in that specific solution. Which kind of becomes a silo as well. So we enable companies to leverage the existing environments and get the same benefits that you'd get from a performance perspective that HCI is bringing. Data locality and relook or read IO's with ...... But at the same time, with your existing hardware. And allows you to use whatever you want. There are other benefits on the resilience side as well. A primary and secondary bad cops so all the primary data, leaves in the nodes in the servers but we have the copy of the data or the back up in what we call a data cluster. So, what that really makes is the solution is stateless on the server side. I don't know if you remember, it's the same timeframe. All the servers were stateless. If a server went down, you would just, no move. You restart the VM's or the workload in a different server. And it's great. With hyper-convergence, now it's always stateful. All the data is actually living on the server. So when you lose a server, you actually putting data at risk and to be cost effective with ACI, you need to do what they call IFTT1 or replication factor two which means I have two copies of the data across the cluster. But it's not very uncommon to have avoid this failure and the read error and then you down to back up and have to restore. You want to rely on the backup as your insurance-- >> Dave: Not as your-- >> Not as then we use it for a day today. >> Yeah. >> So there are a number of different things that we solved that we believe we solved well. That hyper-convergence was not able to solve in its first instance. But you know what? That said, hyper-convergence started this whole journey to convergence is starting. I think I heard Chad Sakeet saying that, there's 440,000 VMX out there. Those are all coming for renewal, no refresh cycles. And now customers that have been able to see what HCI was doing the past three, four years. What worked and what was not working well and look at the use solutions and see how we are addressing those changes. >> Well what about the data protection side. You guys obviously have with Brian and Hugo, a lot of experience as a target. >> Voiceover: Yeah, yeah. >> But you're talking about more. You're talking about a software platform. >> Yeah from a data protection perspective, first of all you've got a platform that's totally unified with your primary storage environment. You then have this wonderful grandularity at VM and V dis level, container level. Great scale, I mean again the chops that the founders bring to that. But one of the things that you know, it think is really powerful. other platforms will talk about, hey we can snap VM's. We can replicate but then they will store them on expensive Flash in those nods and we have a separate device that is cost optimized, globally dedupped compressed on very low cost capacity. That is ideal for all that capacity you need to keep to protect the business. And so bringing that together with the great performance of Flash, this thing really does it all end to end And so it's a different way to think about it. And when we go in, we typically solving problems on the compute primary storage side. >> Voiceover: Uh huh. >> But when we then describe what we do from a backup or archived to cloud perspective, the lights go on and oh my gosh, I simply don't need-- >> John: I got a two for one here. >> Yes exactly. >> Your file system basically you're saying eliminates the need for any separate backup software, is that right, or? >> We do, I would say 80 or 90% of what most people need because the convenience of having your virtualization engineer do it all is so good. Now what I would say is, there are a lot of requirements in the world that we absolutely are going to turn to our pals at Zerto for and Cool Replication. Our friends at Veem, Rubert Cohesidi. All of those guys, we'll team up with because if you want you know back up off platform you know we're daydream to daydream. >> Voiceover: Yeah, right. >> We're not, going to sugar coat that. But there are specific requirements that those guys do that you need. We're going to give them a ring and bring them in. But what we're finding is, most of our customers are looking for ways to just do it all in one spot with a guy running the business, so. >> So I want to back up for a second. We had Brian's founder on Monday and this is an interesting story. I want you to take a minute to describe why you're doing this, because a lot of people, you come in, okay primary storage compute and then that's how I used to operate and then the next guy comes in with his solution. You guys have an interesting perspective with the data domain backup side. Why are guys taking this approach? Explain the uniqueness, why you guys are engaging in this way and what does it mean for the person the customer on the other end. >> Craig: Yeah. >> Is it all in one, is it optional? I mean, the approach is unique 'cause of the founder. >> Craig: Yeah. Just take a minute to explain that. >> Here's the world, the world is hard and getting harder, right? I mean it's just a morning, noon, night and weekend job to keep businesses running with the pace of this economy we're in, right? >> John: The economists are pulling their hair out, basically. >> And the, exactly and so the winner in the market is the one who can bring the simplest approach that gets the job done. And the problem is the bolt on, peace meal solution's that folks are tasked to live with, if you sit down and just draw all of the software stacks and consoles, then you need to put together to go from your virtualization environment. Flash, your backup environment. Replication DR, security, you want to blow your brains out. (laughter) >> John: Hang from the raftors. And again guys, they're trying to get the job done. They're forced to move fast and they're tight on budget. And so if you Ycan bring them the simplest possible solution that solves the problem today and future proofs it going forward, that's what folks are looking for. And there's a lot of nuanced edges to a lot of different solutions out there but at the end of the day show me simple and that wins. >> Alright so, now give me the reactions. That's important to buyers to understand what the (mumbles) is, thank you very much for that. Now the reactions. So you walk into that buyer and say, hey don't blow your brains out. Don't hang from the rafters, we got you here. This is beautiful for you, simple works. Cleans those lines up. What are they reacting to? Are they skeptical, they say you're full of you know what? Do they test the hell out of it? What goes on? >> When you walk them through it, and I'm going to let you take this too. You've talked to a ton of people already. When you walk them through it, they totally get it. Where should Flash be? Right next to the VM on the host. Makes perfect since, it's cheaper there, right? How should you scale, well stateless host. You know, servers that aren't storage nods. You know you lose two and you cluster down. That's not a great situation. >> Voiceover: No problem. >> Voiceover: Yeah. (laughter) >> And so stateless hosts. Any number of servers can fail, you're still going. People love that, they get that. Bringing all the backup capability into that one console. If you've got it, people get it and by the way, a quick demo is kind of icing on the cake. But I mean-- >> Share some color. >> Yeah, no, I've been traveling the last few weeks and talking to customers. I joined Datrium four months ago, and customers understand the proposition and they like. They like that we bring performers. They like that we bring resiliency. They like that it re-utilize the existing investments in the data center. And they like that we do primary and secondary backup. The customers that we're talking to they get it and they understand it and they want to do POC's and move on. >> So you're talking about a lot of VMX's out there. 400,00 plus, obviously that's been a target for hyper-connected verge. Clearly a target for your guys.6 But you're also talking about stateless. And when you think about these emerging cloud native apps, these stateless apps, certain IOT apps that are being developed. Do you see the emergence within your customer base yet? Of those type of emerging applications that aren't staple. >> Absolutely, I mean well first of all. If you look at the public cloud world. Architecturally what those guys have had to do to kind of get latency low and scalable, they think EC2 and S3, you know think of how Google cloud is architected with Kolassas. They have separated that persistent capacity from what's going on, effectively on the nods, the compute nods. And they've done that for exactly for that reason. To scale, low latency workloads as you need as you grow on demand. >> And to make that infrastructure invisible to the developer. >> Absolutely, absolutely and so the approach we're taking is fundamentally to give customers in kind of this hybrid world a way to bring that kind of infrastructure with the simplicity, scale, performance you need and kind of on prim. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And then it's a wonderful map when you take that in hybrid way to public cloud, 'cause you can very easily map that capacity layer to capacity layer, compute to compute. Instead of this kind of crazy dance you have to do with traditional infrastructure. >> That was actually part of it. You look at the VM ware and nowadays there's keynotes and embracing double ups and container. It's all over the place now. Now we're counting the days for how many store engineers or infrastructural engineers who actually need the data center moving forward. But the way system that we said was the architecture while in mind just support very medal containers and provide all of the performance benefits. And really finding a way to run containers and native apps, called native apps across data centers, across clouds. And we're moving in that direction more and more to support (mumbles) integrated and a few other architectural solutions. >> So I want to follow up with that. I mean, everybody talks about cloud. The show it's cloud, cloud, cloud and obviously the big wave. But the, you know this well John being all the time you spent with AWS, Reinvent and Jassie and so forth. The (mumbles) cloud is not VM's. >> Voiceover: Right. >> Right, and so is the conversation beginning to change? And your customer base around more of a developer mindset and what does that conversation look like. >> For the customers that I've been talking they still are very VM centric. There are some discussions about containers and developing, developers embracing containers. Off brand on the &cloud and on premise but they know VM is still pervasive in the prize. >> Dave: So that's where the money is? (laughter) >> That's where the money is, at least for the large majority of -- >> I'm sorry now on premise. And so cloud is just a different vernacular true but-- >> But the reality is though folks have that've got a VM environment. A lot of people we talk to are they have mason container development work going on. >> John: Right. >> And the challenge is though that those kinds of customers wind up having to silo out the infrastructure that supports those. You just don't have the bridge. >> Dave: And with you, you're saying-- >> And the point is yeah, you can have your ESX, VM's, your Linux VM's, your containers running in those VM's or you can have those containers running bare metal. >> Yeah. >> It's all one shared pool of resources like it ought to be. >> And to some extent when I talk to customers, what I figured out is they all starting using containers running VM's. But as soon as they figured out their frame of work, their management, their orchestration, they wanted to move to bare metal 'cause they wanted to have is that additional 10, 15% performance that they get running bare metal. And that I see constantly and talking to Docker and other companies, that's what they see on their customer base as well. >> Voiceover: Yeah. >> So you know where all that is going, I don't believe everything is going to be running in the cloud. I don't believe everything is going to be running in the data center. There'll be a mix of everything. You talk to two customers, they have different hyper-visors, they had red hat visualization, they have VM ware, they have hyperV. And large customers are embracing everything to some extent. >> Yeah, and you want to set it up in a way that you know, you set your policies and you don't care where it is, right? You set it up, and economical way that is lined with you service levels and who care if it's you know, a different prim site, the cloud, which cloud it doesn't matter. It's all your cloud, one cloud, right? >> Guys, thanks for coming on. Andre Leibovici. >> Andre: Yeah. (laughter) >> Got it right? >> Andre: You, got it. >> Greg Nunez, good friend congratulations on the start-up. >> Craig: Thanks. >> Quick, I want to give you the last word here. Talk about the company's status, what you guys are hiring for, where you guys are in the start-up journey. I see great validation with multiple rounds of funding. How many employees? How much revenue are you doing? Tell me the product cost? (laughter) Share! >> We are growing rapidly, 130% quarter of a quarter. We are hiring literally across the board. We can't hire fast enough to keep up with the demand. And for us the number one goal is just getting in front of customers looking for a way out from personal infrastructure. >> John: Sales people, field organization, channel? >> Channel we have a wonderful channel network and absolutely hiring guys to partner up with our channel. Both sales and marketing and yeah we just-- >> Alright, I'll put you guys on the spot because we love big fan of start-ups, certainly ones that have great pedigree in product that's unique again like Utonics in the early days, no one understood it, founders had stayed on course. You guys are on a similar track where it doesn't look like everything else but it's game changing so. Each of you take a minute to explain to the buyer, a potential customer out there, why they should work with Datrium and what you can bring to the table. We'll start with you. >> So first of all, if you are on a ray based infrastructure now, you're dealing with your performance constraints, managing lines, you've looked at a modern approach to convergence and it just doesn't scale, it's not right for your infrastructure, and enterpriser service provider has to take a look at this new approach to convergence we've got. It will change your world, literally. Your business and your personal world. And if you don't take a look, you're missing out. It is different from hyper-convergence. But fundamentally brings your that wonderful X86 based infrastructure that the whole planet is moving to. Got to take a look. >> Andre you can't say the same thing he's said but in your own words what would you say to the potential buyers that are out there. Potential customers, why should they look at you guys. >> Sure, I'll let you all in on the HCI in the simplicatiion of the data center. You know HCI was great simplying data center, removing a lot of the complexity. We do the same things. We do it in a different way. We remove all the nobs and buttons that you have in the data center as an example our infrastructure doesn't require any tuning on performance. So enable this duplication, enable compression, disable original recording. All those features that people, that when you're managing hundreds or thousands of yams, there's no way you know what needs to be enabled and disabled for each one of your workloads. So we lack from simplicity and that's where I met my pace CI peg, it's simplicity. And we do the same thing but we now solve different challenges that HCI also brought into the market. >> Datrium start-up, hot start-up in Silicon Valley and all around the world. Congratulations. It's The Cube coverage here at VMWorld 2017. I'm John Ferrier and Dave Vellante. We'll be be back with more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Washington DC, it's the CUBE. Covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its partner Ecosystem. >> Welcome back here on the CUBE, the flagship broadcast of Silicon Angle TV along with John Furrier, I'm John Wallace. We're here at AWS Public Sector Summit 2017, the sixth one in its history. It's grown leaps and bounds and still a great vibe from the show for us. It's been packed all day John. >> It's the new reinvent for the public sector, so size wise it's going to become a behemoth very shortly. Our first conference, multi-year run covering Amazon, thanks to Theresa Carlson for letting us come and really on the front lines here, it's awesome. It's computing right here, edge broadcasting, we're sending the data out there. >> We are, we're extracting the signal from the noise as John always likes to say. Government, educations all being talked about here this week. And with us to talk about that is Max Peterson, he's a general manager at the AWS and Max, thank you for joining us, we appreciate that. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> And I knew we were in trouble with our next guest, cause I said this is John, I'm John, he said, this is Max and I'm Max. I said no you're not, I know better than that. Andre Pienaar who's a founder and chairman of C5 Consulting, Andre, thank you for being here on the CUBE. >> It's great pleasure being here. >> Alright let's just start off first off with core responsibilities and a little bit about C5 too for our audience. First off, if you would Max, tell us a little bit about your portfolio-- >> Sure. >> At AWS and then Andre, we'll switch over to C5. >> I think I might have the best job in the world because I get to work with government customers, educational institutions, nonprofits who are all working to try and improve the lives of citizens, improve the lives of students, improve the lives of teachers and basically improve the lives of people overall. And I do that all around the world. >> That is a good job. Yeah, Andre. >> Max will have to arm wrestle for who has got the best job in the world, because in C5, we have the privilege of investing into fast growing companies that are built on Amazon Cloud and that specializes in cyber security, big data and cloud computing and helps to make the world a safer place. >> I'm willing to say >> Hold on I think we have the best job. >> we both have the best job. >> Now wait a minute, we get to talk to the two of you, are you kidding? >> Yeah, I've got the best, we talk to all the smartest people like you guys and it can't get better than that. >> You're just a sliver of our great day. >> That's awesome, we have established we all have great jobs. >> Andre, so you hit cyber, obviously there is not a hotter topic, certainly in this city that is talked about quite a bit as you're well aware so let's just talk about that space in general and the kinds of things that you look for and why you have this interest and this association with AWS. >> So the AWS cloud platform is a game changer for cyber security. When we started investing in cyber security, and people considered cloud, one of their main concerns was do I move my data into the cloud and will it be secure? Today it's the other way around because of the innovation that AWS has been driving in the cyber security space. People are saying, we feel we are much more secure having the benefit of all innovation on the cloud platform in terms of our cyber security. >> And the investment thesis that you guys go after, just for the record, you're more on the growth side, what stage of investments do you guys do? >> We're a later stage investor so the companies we invest in are typically post revenue but fast growing in visibility and on profitability. >> So hot areas, cyber security, surveillance, smart cities, autonomous vehicles, I mean there's a data problem going on so you see data and super computing coming back into vogue. Back when I was a youngling in college, they called it data processing. The departments and mainframes, data processing and now you have more compute power, edge compute, now you have tons of data, how is all that coming in for and inching in the business models of companies. This is a completely different shift with the cloud. But you still need high performance computing, you still need huge amounts of data science operations, how do companies and governments and public sectors pull up? >> I think just the sheer volume of data that's being generated also by the emerging internet of things necessitates new models for storing and processing and accessing data and also for securing it. When big enterprises and governments think about cyber security, they really think about how do we secure the most valuable data that's in our custody and our stewardship and how do we meet that obligation to the people who have provided that data to us. >> How would you summarize the intrinsic difference between old way, new way? Old way being non-cloud and new way being cloud as we look forward? >> I think that was a pretty good summary right there. New way is cloud, old way is the legacy that people have locked up in their data centers and it's not just the hardware that is the legacy problem, the data is the legacy problem. Because when you have all that information built in silos around government, it makes it impossible to actually implement a digital citizen experience. You as a citizen would like to be able to just ask your question of government and let them sort out what your postal code was, what your benefits information was, right? You can't do that when you've got the data, much less the systems, locked up in a whole bunch of individual departments. >> Well merging of data, sharing data as an ethos and the cyber security world, where there's an ethos of hey, you know, we're going to help each other out because the more data, the more they can get patterns into the analytics which is a sharing culture. That's not really the way it is. I got governance, I got policy issues. >> Well policing is a good example. In the Washington DC area, there are 19 law enforcement agencies with arresting powers and that data is being kept in completely separate silos. Whereas if we're able to integrate and share that data, you will be able to draw some very useful predictive policing conclusions from that which can prevent and detect crime. >> That's a confidence issue and that's where your security point weighs in. Let me get back to what you said about the old way, new way thing. Another bottleneck or barrier, or just hurdle if you will, in cloud growth, has been cultural. Mindset of management and also operational practices, you have a waterfall development cycles or project management versus agile, which is different. That's a different cultural thing so you got all the best intentions in the world, people could raise their hand put stuff in the cloud, but if you can't scale out, you're going to be on this cadence where projects aren't going to get that ROI picture generated so the agility, how are you guys seeing that developing? >> I would tell you the first thing that it takes is leaders and that's what this conference is about. It's about telling the stories of customers who have seen the potential and who are now leaders. It takes something, it takes a spark to start it and the most powerful spark that we've seen, are customer testimonials, who come forward and they explain, hey I was doing this the old way. A lot of times for a cost reason or a new mandate, they have to come up with a new way to invent and they made that selection of the cloud and that's what so often changed the opportunity that they can address. Here's just using that data as an example, transport for London in the UK has a massive amount of data that comes from all of the journey information. They started their journey to the cloud four years ago and it started with the simple premise of I needed to save costs. They saved money and they were able to take that money and reprogram it now to figuring out how do we unlock the data to generate more information for commuters. Finally, they were able to take that learning and start spinning it into how do I actually improve the journey by using machine learning, artificial intelligence and big data techniques? Classic progression along the cloud. Save some money, reinvest the savings and then start delivering new innovation on that point. >> I was going to ask you the use cases. You jumped right in. Andre, can you just chime in and share your opinion on this or anecdotal or story or data around use cases that you see out there that can point to saying, that's game changing that's transformative, that's disruptive. >> Well one of the customer stories that Max referred to that was a real game changer in cyber security was when the CIA said that they were going to adopt the AWS cloud platform. Because people said if US Intelligence community has the confidence to feel secure on AWS cloud, why can't we? AWS have evolved cyber security from being an offering which is on top of the cloud and the responsibility of the client to something which is inside the cloud which involves a whole range of services and I think that's been a complete game changer. >> The CIA deal, Dave Velanto is not here, my partner in crime as well, I call it the shot heard all around the cloud, that was a seminal moment for AWS in chronicling your guys journey over the years but I've been following you guys since the barely birth days and how you've grown up, that was a really critical moment for AWS in the public sector so I want to ask you guys both a question, right now, 2017 here at public sector conference, what's the perception of AWS outside of the ecosystem? Clearly cloud is the new normal, we heard previously, I agree with that. But what's the perception of the viability, the production level? What's the progress part in the minds of the folks? How far are we in that journey cause this is a breakout year, this year. That was the shot heard around the cloud, now there seems to be a breakout year, almost a hockey stick pick up. >> It's another example of how it takes leadership and it was the shot heard round the cloud, what we're seeing though is now many, many people are picking up that lead and using it to their advantage. The National Cyber Security Center in the UK told a story today that's pretty much a direct follow on. They're now describing to their agencies what they should do to be safe on the cloud. They're not giving them a list of rules that they need to try and go check off. It's very much about enabling and it's very much about providing the right guidance and policy. It's unlocking it instead of using security as a blocker in that example. Much more than just that one example, all over the world-- >> But people generally think okay this is now viable. So in terms of the mind of the people out in the trenches, not in the front lines like here, thoughts on your view on the perception of the progress bar on AWS public sector. >> John, one of the best measures of how the AWS cloud is perceived is what's happening in the startup scene. 90% of all startups today get born on the Amazon cloud in the US. 70% of all startups in France gets born in AWS cloud. This is the future voting for cloud and saying this is where we want to be, this is where we can scale this is where we can grow-- >> If you can believe APIs will be the normal operational interface subsystems and data, then you essentially have a holistic distributed cloud, aka computer. That's the vision. So what's the challenge? What do you guys see as the challenge, is it just education, growth? You only have 10,000 people here, it's not like it's 30 yet. >> Well you heard one of the, or you hit on one of the things that's key and that's policy. You really do have to break through the old government bureaucracy and the old government mentality and help set the new policies. Whether it's economic policies that help enable small businesses to launch and use the cloud. Whether it's procurement policies that allow people to actually buy tech and use tech fast, or whether it's the basic policy of the country. The UK now has a policy of being digital native, cloud native. >> The ecosystem's interesting, Andre, you mentioned startup, because I think for me, challenge opportunity is to have Amazon scale up, to handle the tsunami of Ecosystem partners that could be as you said, we just talked to Fugue here. Amazing startup funded by New Enterprise Associates, NEA, they're kicking ass, they're just awesome. You go back 10 years ago, they wouldn't even be considered. >> Absolutely. >> So you've got an opportunity to jam everyone in the marketplace and let it be a free for all, it's kind of like a fun time. >> It's a great time and in the venture capital world, being architect on the Amazon cloud has become a badge of quality. So increasingly venture capital firms are looking for startups that run on the AWS cloud and use them in an innovative way. >> Well on the efficiency on the product side, but also leverage on the capital side. >> Exactly. You need less capital. >> Been a provision of data center, what? >> You need less capital and secondly, also, you can fail much faster and then still have space and time to build it and restart. I think failing faster is something from an investment point of view that is really attractive. >> John: Final question. >> John: Failing faster? >> Failing faster. Because what you don't want are the long drawn out deaths of businesses. Because that's a sure way to destroy value of money. >> I think the other part though is fix faster. >> Fix faster. >> And that's exactly what the cloud does so instead of spending an immense amount of time and energy trying to figuring out precisely what I need to build, I can come up with the basic idea, I can work quick, I can fail fast, but I can fix it fast. >> Alright, well you mentioned the golden time, the golden era, and I think you both have captured it, so I think both your jobs would be up there at the top of the shelf. >> Thank you John. >> You mentioned 19 agencies by the way here in DC that can arrest, I have parking tickets from every one of them. >> Andre: I'm glad they haven't arrested you yet John. >> No, that's the price you pay for living in this city. >> Thanks John and John. >> Max, Andre thank you very much. >> John and John thank you. >> Cheers. >> Back with more here from AWS Public Sector Summit 2017, live, Washington DC, you're watching the CUBE.

>>Welcome back to super cloud 22, our inaugural event. It's a pilot event here in the cube studios we're live and streaming virtually until we do it in person. Maybe next year. I'm John fury, host of the cube with Dave Lon two great guests, distinguished engineers managers, CTOs investors. Mariana Tessel is a CTO of Intuit ins Ray founder of vertex ventures. Both have a lot of DNA. Founder allow cloud here with mark Andre and Ben Horowitz, a variety of other great ventures you've done. And now you're an investor. Yep. Maria, you've been a seasoned CTO, VP of engineering, VMware Docker Intuit. Now thanks for joining us. >>Absolutely. >>So super cloud is a, is a thing. And apparently it's got a lot of momentum and you guys got stats over there at, at Intuit in, so you're investing and we were challenged on super cloud. Our initial thesis was you build on the clouds, get all that leverage like snowflake, you get a good differentiation and then you compete and then move to other clouds. Now it's becoming a thing where I can do this. Every enterprise could possibly do it. So I want to get your guys thoughts on what you think of super cloud concept and where are the holes in it, what needs to be defined. And so we'll start with you. You've done a lot of cloud things in your day. What >>Do you think? Yeah, it's the whole cloud journey started with a desire to consolidate and desire to actually provide uniformity and, and standards driven ways of doing things. And I think Amazon was a leader there. They helped kind of teach everybody else. You know, when I was in loud cloud, we were trying to do it with proprietary stacks just wouldn't work. But once everyone standardized upon Unix and you know, the chip sets no longer became as relevant. They did a lot of good things there, but what's happened since then is now you've got competing standards at the API layer at the interface layer no longer at the chip set layer, no longer at the operating system layer. Right? So the evolution of the, the, the battles are still there. When you talk about multicloud and super cloud, though, like one of the big things you have to keep in mind is latency is not free. Latency is very expensive and it's getting even more expensive now with, with multi-cloud. So you have to really understand where the separations of boundaries are between your data, your compute, and, and the network is just there as a facilitator to help binding compute and data. Right? And I think there's a lot of bets being made across different vendors like CloudFlare Akamai, as well as Amazon Google Microsoft in terms of how they think we should take computing either to the edge, from the core or back and forth. >>These, this is structural change. I mean, this is structural, >>It's desired by incumbents, but it's not something that I'm seeing from the consumption. I'd love to hear, hear from our end's per perspective, from a consumption point of view, like how much edge computing really matters. Right. >>Mario. >>So I think there's like, there's kind of a, a story of like two, like it's kind of, you can cut it for both edges. No, no pun intended on one end. It is really simplifying to actually go into like a single cloud and standardize on it and just have everything there. But I think what over time companies find is that they end up in multiple clouds, whether like, you know, through acquisitions or through like needing to use a service in another cloud. So you do find yourself in a situation where you have multi multi-cloud and you have to kind of work through it and understand how to make it all like work and latency is an issue, but also for many, many workloads, you can work around it and you can make it work where you have workloads that actually span multiple vendors and clouds. You know, again, having said that, I would say the world is such, that is still a simplifying assumption. When if you go to a single cloud, it's much easier to just go and, and bet on that >>Easier in terms of everything's integrated, IAS works with SAS, they solve a lot of problems. >>Correct. And you can do like for your developers, you can actually provide an environment that's super homogenous, simple. You can use services easily up and down the stack. And, you know, we, we actually made that deliberate decision. When we started migrating to the cloud at the beginning, it was like, oh, let's do like hybrid we'll, you know, make it, so it work anywhere. It was so complicated. It was not worth it. >>When was the, when did you give up, what was the moment? Was there a flash point where you said, oh, this is terrible. This is >>Dead. Yeah. When, when we started to try to make it interoperable and you just see what it requires to do that and the complexity of the architecture that it just became not worth it for the gains you have. >>So speaking obviously as a SAS provider, right. So it just doesn't, it didn't make business case sense for you guys to do that. So it was super cloud. Then an infrastructure thing we just heard from Ben wa deja VI that they're not, they're going beyond instantiating their, their data cloud. They're actually running, you know, their own little snow grid. They called it. And, and then when I asked him, well, what about latency? He said, well, we copied data over, you know, so, okay. That's you have to do, but that's a singular experience with the same governance or the same security. Just wasn't worth it for you guys is what I'm hearing. >>Correct. But again, like for some workload or for some services that we want to use, we are gonna go there and we are gonna then figure out what is the work around the latency issue, whether it's like copy or, you know, redundancy. >>Well, the question I have Dave on snowflake is maybe the question for you and in the panel is snowflake a tan expansion opportunity, or is there a technical reason to go to other clouds? >>I think they wanted to leverage the hyperscale infrastructure globally. And they said that they're out there, it's a free gift. We're gonna go take it. I, I think it started with we're on AWS. Do you think? And then we're on Azure and then we're on Google. And then they said, why don't we just connect all these and make it a singular experience? And yeah, I guess it's a TA expansion as a differentiator and it's, it adds value. Right. If I can share data across that global network, >>We have customers on Azure now, >>Right? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. >>You guys don't need to go CP. What do you think about that? >>Well, I think Snowflake's in a good position cuz they work mostly with analytical workloads and you have capacity. That's always gonna increase like no one subtracts, their analytical workload like ever, right. So there was just compounded growth is like 50% or 80% for, you know, many enterprises despite their best intentions, not to collect more data, they just can't stop doing it. So it's different than if you're like an Oracle or a transactional database where you don't have those, you know, like kind of infinite growth paths. So Snowflake's gonna continue to expand footprint their customers. They don't mind as long as you, they can figure out the, the lowest cost on denominator for, for that. >>Yeah. So it makes sense to be in all the clouds >>For them, for, for them, for sure. Yeah. >>But, but, but Oracle just announced with Microsoft what I would call super cloud, a, a cross cloud database service running on OCI and Azure with very low latency and a database that looks like a, the singular experience. Yeah. With, with a PAs layers >>That lost me after OCI that's >>Okay. You know, but that's the, that's the, the BS answer for all U VCs. The do nobody develops on Oracle? Well, it's a 240 billion market cap company. Show me who you all want be. >>We're gonna talk about SRDF and em C next, you >>All want Oracle. So there we go. You throw that into, you all want Oracle to buy your companies, your funding, you know, cause, cause we all wanna be like Oracle with that kinda cash flow. But, but anyway, >>Here's, here's one thing that I'm noticing that is gonna be really practical. I think for companies that do run SA is because like, you know, you have all these solutions, whether it's like analytics or like monitoring or logging or whatever. And each one of them is very data hungry and all of them have like SAS solutions that end up copy the data, moving data to their cloud, and then they might charge you by the size of your data. It does become kind of overwhelming for companies to use that many tools and basically maybe have that data kind of charge for it, multiple places because you use it for different purposes or just in general, if you have a lot of data, you know, that that is becoming an issue. So that's something that I've noticed in our, in our own kind of, you know, a world, but it's just something that I think companies need to think about how they solve because eventually a lot of companies will say, I cannot have all these solutions, so there's no way I'm gonna be willing to have so many copies of the data and actually pay for that. >>So many times, just something to think about. >>But one of the criticisms of the super cloud concept is that it's just SAS. If I'm running workload on prem and I, and I've got, you know, a connection to the cloud, which you probably do, that's, that's SAS, what's, what's the big deal and that's not anything new or different. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But Goldman Sachs, for instance, just announced the service last reinvent with AWS, connecting their tools, their data, and their software from on-prem to AWS, they're offering it as a service. I'm like, Hmm. Kind of looking like Supercloud, but maybe it's just SAS. >>It could be. And like, what I'm talking about is not so much like, you know, like what you wanna connect your data. But the idea is like a lot of the providers of different services, like in the past and, and like higher layer, they're actually COPI the data. They need the data in their cloud or their solution. And it just becomes complicated and expensive is, is kind of like my point. So yes, connecting it like for you to have the data in one place and then be able to connect to it. I think that is a valid, if, if that's kinda what you think about as a super cloud, that is a valid need, I think that companies will >>Have where developers actually want access to tools that might exist. >>Also the key is developers, right? Yeah. Developers decide all decisions, not database on administrators, not, you know, a hundred percent security engineers, not admins. So what's really interesting is where are the developers going next? If you look at the current winners in the current ecosystem, companies like MongoDB, I mean, they capture the minds of yeah. The JavaScript, you know, no JS developers absolutely very early on. And I started catch base and I could tell you like the difference was that capture motion was so important. So developers are basically used to this game-like experience now where they want to see tools that are free, whether it's open source or not, they actually don't care. They just want, and they want it SAS. They want it SAS delivered on demand. Right. And pay as you go. And so there's a lot of these different frameworks coming out next generation, no code, low code, whether it's Java, JavaScript, rust, you know, whatever, you know, go Lang. And there's a lot of people fighting religious wars about how to develop the next kind of modern pattern design pattern. Okay. And that's where a lot of excitement is how we look at like investment opportunities. Like where are those big bets who are, you know, frustrated developers, who are they frustrated, what's wrong with their current environment? You know, do they really enjoy using Kubernetes or trying to use Kubernetes? Yeah. Right. Like developers have a very different view than operator, >>But you mentioned couch base. I mean, I look at couch base what they're doing with Capellas as a form of Supercloud. I mean, I think that's an excellent, they're bringing that out to the edge. We're gonna hear later on from someone from couch base. That's gonna talk about that now. It's kind of a lightweight, you know, sort of, it's gonna be a, a synchronization, but it's the beginning >>A cool new venture deal that I'm not in, but was like duck DB. I'm like, what's duck DB like, well, it's an Emory database that has like this like remote store thing. I'm like, okay, that sounds interesting. Like let's call Mike Olson cuz that sounds like sleepy cat redone red distributed world. But like it's, it's like there's a lot of people refactoring design patterns that we're all grew up with since the popup days of, you know, typical round. Right? >>Yeah. That's the refactory I think that's the big pattern. So I have to ask you guys, what are you guys investing in? We've got a couple minutes left to chat about that. What are you investing at into it from a, from a, a CTO engineering perspective and what are you investing in that feels super cloud like to you? >>Well, the, the thing that like I'm focused on is to make sure that we have absolutely best in the world development environment for our engineers, where it's modern, it's easy to use and it incorporates as many things as we can into that environment. So the engineers don't have to think about it. Like one big example would be security and how we incorporated that into development environment. So again, the engineers don't have to bother with trying to think through how they secure their workloads and every step of the way their other things that we incorporated, whether it's like rollbacks or monitoring or, you know, like baly enough other things. But I think that's really an investment that has panned off for us. We actually started investing in development environment several years ago. We started measure our development velocity and we, it actually went up by six X justly investing. So >>User experience, developer experience and productivity pretty much right. >>Yeah. AB absolutely. Yeah. That's like a big investment area for us that, you know, cloud cloud >>Sounds like super cloudlike factor and I'm assuming it's you're on AWS. >>We are mostly on AWS. Yes. >>And so what are you investing in that from a VC money doling out standpoint? That feels super cloudlike >>So very similar to what we just touched on a lot of developer tool experiences. We have a company that we've invested in called ops level that the service catalogs it's, it's helping, you know, understand your, where your services live and how they could be accessed and, and you know, enterprise kind of that come with that. And then we have a company called Lugo that helps you do serverless debugging container debugging, cuz it turns out debugging distributed, you know, applications is a real problem right now just you can only do so much by log tracing, right? We have a company haven't announced yet that's in the web assembly space. So we're looking at modernizing the next generation past stack and throwing everything out the window, including Java and all of the, you know, current prebuilt components because turns out 90% of enterprise workloads are actually not used. They're they're just policy code. You compiled with they're sitting there as vulnerabilities that no one's actually accessing, but you still have to compile with all of it. So we have a lot of bloatware happening in the enterprise. So we're thinking about how do you skinny that up with the next generation paths that's enterprise capable with security context and frameworks >>Super pass. >>Well, yeah, super pass. That's a kind of good way to, well, is >>It, is it a consistent developer experience across clouds? >>It is. And, and, and, and web assembly is a very raw standard if you can call it that. I mean it's, but it's supported by every modern browser, every major platform, vendor cloud, and Adobe and others, and are using it for their uses. And it's not just about your edge browser compute. It's really, you can take the same framework and compile it down to server side as well as client site, just like JavaScript was a client side tool before it became node. Right. Right. So we're looking at that as a very interesting opportunity. It's very nascent. Yeah. >>Great patterns. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for spending the time outta your busy day. Ariana. Thanks for your commentary. Appreciate your coming on the cubes first in IGUR super cloud event, pilot. Thanks for, for sharing. Thanks for having, thanks for having us. Okay. More coverage here. Super cloud 2022. I'm Jeff David Alane stay with us. We got our cloud ARA panel coming up next.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting enterprise. Digital resilience on hybrid and multi cloud Brought to You by Iota Ho. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our continuing Siri's covering data automation brought to you by Io Tahoe. Today we're gonna look at how to ensure enterprise resilience for hybrid and multi cloud. Let's welcome in age. Eva Hora, who is the CEO of Iota A J. Always good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >>Great to be back. David Pleasure. >>And he's joined by Fozzy Coons, who is a global principal architect for financial services. The vertical of financial services. That red hat. He's got deep experiences in that sector. Welcome, Fozzie. Good to see you. >>Thank you very much. Happy to be here. >>Fancy. Let's start with you. Look, there are a lot of views on cloud and what it is. I wonder if you could explain to us how you think about what is a hybrid cloud and and how it works. >>Sure, yes. So the hybrid cloud is a 90 architecture that incorporates some degree off workload, possibility, orchestration and management across multiple clouds. Those clouds could be private cloud or public cloud or even your own data centers. And how does it all work? It's all about secure interconnectivity and on demand. Allocation of resources across clouds and separate clouds can become hydrate when they're similarly >>interconnected. And >>it is that interconnectivity that allows the workloads workers to be moved and how management can be unified in off the street. You can work and how well you have. These interconnections has a direct impact on how well your hybrid cloud will work. >>Okay, so we'll fancy staying with you for a minute. So in the early days of Cloud that turned private Cloud was thrown a lot around a lot, but often just meant virtualization of an on PREM system and a network connection to the public cloud. Let's bring it forward. What, in your view, does a modern hybrid cloud architecture look like? >>Sure. So for modern public clouds, we see that, um, teams organizations need to focus on the portability off applications across clouds. That's very important, right? And when organizations build applications, they need to build and deploy these applications as small collections off independently, loosely coupled services, and then have those things run on the same operating system which means, in other words, running it on Lenox everywhere and building cloud native applications and being able to manage and orchestrate thes applications with platforms like KUBERNETES or read it open shit, for example. >>Okay, so that Z, that's definitely different from building a monolithic application that's fossilized and and doesn't move. So what are the challenges for customers, you know, to get to that modern cloud? Aziz, you've just described it. Is it skill sets? Is that the ability to leverage things like containers? What's your view there? >>So, I mean, from what we've seen around around the industry, especially around financial services, where I spent most of my time, we see that the first thing that we see is management right now because you have all these clouds and all these applications, you have a massive array off connections off interconnections. You also have massive array off integrations, possibility and resource allocations as well, and then orchestrating all those different moving pieces. Things like storage networks and things like those are really difficult to manage, right? That's one. What s O Management is the first challenge. The second one is workload, placement, placement. Where do you place this? How do you place this cloud? Native applications. Do you or do you keep on site on Prem? And what do you put in the cloud? That is the the the other challenge. The major one. The third one is security. Security now becomes the key challenge and concern for most customers. And we could talk about how hundreds? Yeah, >>we're definitely gonna dig into that. Let's bring a J into the conversation. A J. You know, you and I have talked about this in the past. One of the big problems that virtually every companies face is data fragmentation. Um, talk a little bit about how I owe Tahoe unifies data across both traditional systems legacy systems. And it connects to these modern I t environments. >>Yeah, sure, Dave. I mean, fancy just nailed it. There used to be about data of the volume of data on the different types of data. But as applications become or connected and interconnected at the location of that data really matters how we serve that data up to those those app. So working with red hat in our partnership with Red Hat being able Thio, inject our data Discovery machine learning into these multiple different locations. Would it be in AWS on IBM Cloud or A D. C p R. On Prem being able thio Automate that discovery? I'm pulling that. That single view of where is all my data then allows the CEO to manage cast that can do things like one. I keep the data where it is on premise or in my Oracle Cloud or in my IBM cloud on Connect. The application that needs to feed off that data on the way in which you do that is machine learning. That learns over time is it recognizes different types of data, applies policies to declassify that data. Andi and brings it all together with automation. >>Right? And that's one of the big themes and we've talked about this on earlier episodes. Is really simplification really abstracting a lot of that heavy lifting away so we can focus on things A. J A. Z. You just mentioned e nifaz e. One of the big challenges that, of course, we all talk about his governance across thes disparity data sets. I'm curious as your thoughts. How does Red Hat really think about helping customers adhere to corporate edicts and compliance regulations, which, of course, are are particularly acute within financial services. >>Oh, yeah, Yes. So for banks and the payment providers, like you've just mentioned their insurers and many other financial services firms, Um, you know, they have to adhere Thio standards such as a PC. I. D. S s in Europe. You've got the G g d p g d p r, which requires strange and tracking, reporting documentation. And you know, for them to to remain in compliance and the way we recommend our customers to address these challenges is by having an automation strategy. Right. And that type of strategy can help you to improve the security on compliance off the organization and reduce the risk after the business. Right. And we help organizations build security and compliance from the start without consulting services residencies. We also offer courses that help customers to understand how to address some of these challenges. And that's also we help organizations build security into their applications without open sources. Mueller, where, um, middle offerings and even using a platform like open shift because it allows you to run legacy applications and also continue rights applications in a unified platform right And also that provides you with, you know, with the automation and the truly that you need to continuously monitor, manage and automate the systems for security and compliance >>purposes. Hey, >>Jay, anything. Any color you could add to this conversation? >>Yeah, I'm pleased. Badly brought up Open shift. I mean, we're using open shift to be able. Thio, take that security application of controls to to the data level. It's all about context. So, understanding what data is there being able to assess it to say who should have access to it. Which application permission should be applied to it. Um, that za great combination of Red Hat tonight. Tahoe. >>But what about multi Cloud? Doesn't that complicate the situation even even further? Maybe you could talk about some of the best practices to apply automation across not only hybrid cloud, but multi >>cloud a swell. Yeah, sure. >>Yeah. So the right automation solution, you know, can be the difference between, you know, cultivating an automated enterprise or automation caress. And some of the recommendations we give our clients is to look for an automation platform that can offer the first thing is complete support. So that means have an automation solution that provides that provides, um, you know, promotes I t availability and reliability with your platform so that you can provide, you know, enterprise great support, including security and testing, integration and clear roadmaps. The second thing is vendor interoperability interoperability in that you are going to be integrating multiple clouds. So you're going to need a solution that can connect to multiple clouds. Simples lee, right? And with that comes the challenge off maintain ability. So you you you're going to need to look into a automation Ah, solution that that is easy to learn or has an easy learning curve. And then the fourth idea that we tell our customers is scalability in the in the hybrid cloud space scale is >>is >>a big, big deal here, and you need a to deploy an automation solution that can span across the whole enterprise in a constituent, consistent manner, right? And then also, that allows you finally to, uh, integrate the multiple data centers that you have, >>So A J I mean, this is a complicated situation, for if a customer has toe, make sure things work on AWS or azure or Google. Uh, they're gonna spend all their time doing that, huh? What can you add really? To simplify that that multi cloud and hybrid cloud equation? >>Yeah. I could give a few customer examples here Warming a manufacturer that we've worked with to drive that simplification Onda riel bonuses for them is has been a reduction cost. We worked with them late last year to bring the cost bend down by $10 million in 2021 so they could hit that reduced budget. Andre, What we brought to that was the ability thio deploy using open shift templates into their different environments. Where there is on premise on bond or in as you mentioned, a W s. They had G cps well, for their marketing team on a cross, those different platforms being out Thio use a template, use pre built scripts to get up and running in catalog and discover that data within minutes. It takes away the legacy of having teams of people having Thio to jump on workshop cause and I know we're all on a lot of teens. The zoom cause, um, in these current times, they just sent me is in in of hours in the day Thio manually perform all of this. So yeah, working with red hat applying machine learning into those templates those little recipes that we can put that automation toe work, regardless of which location the data is in allows us thio pull that unified view together. Right? >>Thank you, Fozzie. I wanna come back to you. So the early days of cloud, you're in the big apple, you know, financial services. Really well. Cloud was like an evil word within financial services, and obviously that's changed. It's evolved. We talked about the pandemic, has even accelerated that, Um And when you really, you know, dug into it when you talk to customers about their experiences with security in the cloud it was it was not that it wasn't good. It was great, whatever. But it was different. And there's always this issue of skill, lack of skills and multiple tools suck up teams, they're really overburdened. But in the cloud requires new thinking. You've got the shared responsibility model you've got obviously have specific corporate requirements and compliance. So this is even more complicated when you introduce multiple clouds. So what are the differences that you can share from your experience is running on a sort of either on Prem or on a mono cloud, um, or, you know, and versus across clouds. What? What? What do you suggest there? >>Yeah, you know, because of these complexities that you have explained here, Miss Configurations and the inadequate change control the top security threats. So human error is what we want to avoid because is, you know, as your clouds grow with complexity and you put humans in the mix, then the rate off eras is going to increase, and that is going to exposure to security threat. So this is where automation comes in because automation will streamline and increase the consistency off your infrastructure management. Also application development and even security operations to improve in your protection, compliance and change control. So you want to consistently configure resources according to a pre approved um, you know, pre approved policies and you want to proactively maintain a to them in a repeatable fashion over the whole life cycle. And then you also want to rapid the identified system that require patches and and reconfiguration and automate that process off patching and reconfiguring so that you don't have humans doing this type of thing, right? And you want to be able to easily apply patches and change assistant settings. According Thio, Pre defined, based on like explained before, you know, with the pre approved policies and also you want is off auditing and troubleshooting, right? And from a rate of perspective, we provide tools that enable you to do this. We have, for example, a tool called danceable that enables you to automate data center operations and security and also deployment of applications and also obvious shit yourself, you know, automates most of these things and obstruct the human beings from putting their fingers on, causing, uh, potentially introducing errors right now in looking into the new world off multiple clouds and so forth. The difference is that we're seeing here between running a single cloud or on prem is three main areas which is control security and compliance. Right control here it means if your on premise or you have one cloud, um, you know, in most cases you have control over your data and your applications, especially if you're on Prem. However, if you're in the public cloud, there is a difference there. The ownership, it is still yours. But your resources are running on somebody else's or the public clouds. You know, e w s and so forth infrastructure. So people that are going to do this need to really especially banks and governments need to be aware off the regulatory constraints off running, uh, those applications in the public cloud. And we also help customers regionalize some of these choices and also on security. You will see that if you're running on premises or in a single cloud, you have more control, especially if you're on Prem. You can control this sensitive information that you have, however, in the cloud. That's a different situation, especially from personal information of employees and things like that. You need to be really careful off that. And also again, we help you rationalize some of those choices. And then the last one is compliant. Aziz. Well, you see that if you're running on Prem or a single cloud, um, regulations come into play again, right? And if you're running a problem, you have control over that. You can document everything you have access to everything that you need. But if you're gonna go to the public cloud again, you need to think about that. We have automation, and we have standards that can help you, uh, you know, address some of these challenges for security and compliance. >>So that's really strong insights, Potsie. I mean, first of all, answerable has a lot of market momentum. Red hats in a really good job with that acquisition, your point about repeatability is critical because you can't scale otherwise. And then that idea you're you're putting forth about control, security compliance It's so true is I called it the shared responsibility model. And there was a lot of misunderstanding in the early days of cloud. I mean, yeah, maybe a W s is gonna physically secure the, you know, s three, but in the bucket. But we saw so many Miss configurations early on. And so it's key to have partners that really understand this stuff and can share the experiences of other clients. So this all sounds great. A j. You're sharp, you know, financial background. What about the economics? >>You >>know, our survey data shows that security it's at the top of the spending priority list, but budgets are stretched thin. E especially when you think about the work from home pivot and and all the areas that they had toe the holes that they had to fill their, whether it was laptops, you know, new security models, etcetera. So how do organizations pay for this? What's the business case look like in terms of maybe reducing infrastructure costs so I could, you know, pay it forward or there's a There's a risk reduction angle. What can you share >>their? Yeah. I mean, the perspective I'd like to give here is, um, not being multi cloud is multi copies of an application or data. When I think about 20 years, a lot of the work in financial services I was looking at with managing copies of data that we're feeding different pipelines, different applications. Now what we're saying I talk a lot of the work that we're doing is reducing the number of copies of that data so that if I've got a product lifecycle management set of data, if I'm a manufacturer, I'm just gonna keep that in one location. But across my different clouds, I'm gonna have best of breed applications developed in house third parties in collaboration with my supply chain connecting securely to that. That single version of the truth. What I'm not going to do is to copy that data. So ah, lot of what we're seeing now is that interconnectivity using applications built on kubernetes. Um, that decoupled from the data source that allows us to reduce those copies of data within that you're gaining from the security capability and resilience because you're not leaving yourself open to those multiple copies of data on with that. Couldn't come. Cost, cost of storage on duh cost of compute. So what we're seeing is using multi cloud to leverage the best of what each cloud platform has to offer That goes all the way to Snowflake and Hiroko on Cloud manage databases, too. >>Well, and the people cost to a swell when you think about yes, the copy creep. But then you know when something goes wrong, a human has to come in and figured out um, you brought up snowflake, get this vision of the data cloud, which is, you know, data data. I think this we're gonna be rethinking a j, uh, data architectures in the coming decade where data stays where it belongs. It's distributed, and you're providing access. Like you said, you're separating the data from the applications applications as we talked about with Fozzie. Much more portable. So it Z really the last 10 years will be different than the next 10 years. A. >>J Definitely. I think the people cast election is used. Gone are the days where you needed thio have a dozen people governing managing black policies to data. Ah, lot of that repetitive work. Those tests can be in power automated. We've seen examples in insurance were reduced teams of 15 people working in the the back office China apply security controls compliance down to just a couple of people who are looking at the exceptions that don't fit. And that's really important because maybe two years ago the emphasis was on regulatory compliance of data with policies such as GDP are in CCP a last year, very much the economic effect of reduce headcounts on on enterprises of running lean looking to reduce that cost. This year, we can see that already some of the more proactive cos they're looking at initiatives such as net zero emissions how they use data toe under understand how cape how they can become more have a better social impact. Um, and using data to drive that, and that's across all of their operations and supply chain. So those regulatory compliance issues that may have been external we see similar patterns emerging for internal initiatives that benefiting the environment, social impact and and, of course, course, >>great perspectives. Yeah, Jeff Hammer, Bucker once famously said, The best minds of my generation are trying to get people to click on ads and a J. Those examples that you just gave of, you know, social good and moving. Uh, things forward are really critical. And I think that's where Data is gonna have the biggest societal impact. Okay, guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Really appreciate your time. Keep it right there from, or insight and conversation around, creating a resilient digital business model. You're watching the >>Cube digital resilience, automated compliance, privacy and security for your multi cloud. Congratulations. You're on the journey. You have successfully transformed your organization by moving to a cloud based platform to ensure business continuity in these challenging times. But as you scale your digital activities, there is an inevitable influx of users that outpaces traditional methods of cybersecurity, exposing your data toe underlying threats on making your company susceptible toe ever greater risk to become digitally resilient. Have you applied controls your data continuously throughout the data Lifecycle? What are you doing to keep your customer on supply data private and secure? I owe Tahoe's automated, sensitive data. Discovery is pre programmed with over 300 existing policies that meet government mandated risk and compliance standards. Thes automate the process of applying policies and controls to your data. Our algorithm driven recommendation engine alerts you to risk exposure at the data level and suggests the appropriate next steps to remain compliant on ensure sensitive data is secure. Unsure about where your organization stands In terms of digital resilience, Sign up for a minimal cost commitment. Free data Health check. Let us run our sensitive data discovery on key unmapped data silos and sources to give you a clear understanding of what's in your environment. Book time within Iot. Tahoe Engineer Now >>Okay, let's now get into the next segment where we'll explore data automation. But from the angle of digital resilience within and as a service consumption model, we're now joined by Yusuf Khan, who heads data services for Iot, Tahoe and Shirish County up in. Who's the vice president and head of U. S. Sales at happiest Minds? Gents, welcome to the program. Great to have you in the Cube. >>Thank you, David. >>Trust you guys talk about happiest minds. This notion of born digital, foreign agile. I like that. But talk about your mission at the company. >>Sure. >>A former in 2011 Happiest Mind is a born digital born a child company. The reason is that we are focused on customers. Our customer centric approach on delivering digitals and seamless solutions have helped us be in the race. Along with the Tier one providers, Our mission, happiest people, happiest customers is focused to enable customer happiness through people happiness. We have Bean ranked among the top 25 i t services company in the great places to work serving hour glass to ratings off 41 against the rating off. Five is among the job in the Indian nineties services company that >>shows the >>mission on the culture. What we have built on the values right sharing, mindful, integrity, learning and social on social responsibilities are the core values off our company on. That's where the entire culture of the company has been built. >>That's great. That sounds like a happy place to be. Now you said you had up data services for Iot Tahoe. We've talked in the past. Of course you're out of London. What >>do you what? Your >>day to day focus with customers and partners. What you focused >>on? Well, David, my team work daily with customers and partners to help them better understand their data, improve their data quality, their data governance on help them make that data more accessible in a self service kind of way. To the stakeholders within those businesses on dis is all a key part of digital resilience that will will come on to talk about but later. You're >>right, e mean, that self service theme is something that we're gonna we're gonna really accelerate this decade, Yussef and so. But I wonder before we get into that, maybe you could talk about the nature of the partnership with happiest minds, you know? Why do you guys choose toe work closely together? >>Very good question. Um, we see Hyo Tahoe on happiest minds as a great mutual fit. A Suresh has said, uh, happiest minds are very agile organization um, I think that's one of the key things that attracts their customers on Io. Tahoe is all about automation. Uh, we're using machine learning algorithms to make data discovery data cataloging, understanding, data done. See, uh, much easier on. We're enabling customers and partners to do it much more quickly. So when you combine our emphasis on automation with the emphasis on agility that happiest minds have that that's a really nice combination work works very well together, very powerful. I think the other things that a key are both businesses, a serious have said, are really innovative digital native type type companies. Um, very focused on newer technologies, the cloud etcetera on. Then finally, I think they're both Challenger brands on happiest minds have a really positive, fresh ethical approach to people and customers that really resonates with us at Ideo Tahoe to >>great thank you for that. So Russia, let's get into the whole notion of digital resilience. I wanna I wanna sort of set it up with what I see, and maybe you can comment be prior to the pandemic. A lot of customers that kind of equated disaster recovery with their business continuance or business resilient strategy, and that's changed almost overnight. How have you seen your clients respond to that? What? I sometimes called the forced march to become a digital business. And maybe you could talk about some of the challenges that they faced along the way. >>Absolutely. So, uh, especially during this pandemic, times when you say Dave, customers have been having tough times managing their business. So happiest minds. Being a digital Brazilian company, we were able to react much faster in the industry, apart from the other services company. So one of the key things is the organisation's trying to adopt onto the digital technologies. Right there has bean lot off data which has been to manage by these customers on There have been lot off threats and risk, which has been to manage by the CEO Seo's so happiest minds digital resilient technology, right where we bring in the data. Complaints as a service were ableto manage the resilience much ahead off other competitors in the market. We were ableto bring in our business continuity processes from day one, where we were ableto deliver our services without any interruption to the services. What we were delivered to our customers So that is where the digital resilience with business community process enabled was very helpful for us. Toe enable our customers continue their business without any interruptions during pandemics. >>So I mean, some of the challenges that customers tell me they obviously they had to figure out how to get laptops to remote workers and that that whole remote work from home pivot figure out how to secure the end points. And, you know, those were kind of looking back there kind of table stakes, But it sounds like you've got a digital business. Means a data business putting data at the core, I like to say, but so I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about maybe the philosophy you have toward digital resilience in the specific approach you take with clients? >>Absolutely. They seen any organization data becomes. The key on that, for the first step is to identify the critical data. Right. So we this is a six step process. What we following happiest minds. First of all, we take stock off the current state, though the customers think that they have a clear visibility off their data. How are we do more often assessment from an external point off view on see how critical their data is, then we help the customers to strategies that right. The most important thing is to identify the most important critical herself. Data being the most critical assert for any organization. Identification off the data's key for the customers. Then we help in building a viable operating model to ensure these identified critical assets are secure on monitor dearly so that they are consumed well as well as protected from external threats. Then, as 1/4 step, we try to bring in awareness, toe the people we train them >>at >>all levels in the organization. That is a P for people to understand the importance off the digital ourselves and then as 1/5 step, we work as a back up plan in terms of bringing in a very comprehensive and a holistic testing approach on people process as well as in technology. We'll see how the organization can withstand during a crisis time, and finally we do a continuous governance off this data, which is a key right. It is not just a one step process. We set up the environment, we do the initial analysis and set up the strategy on continuously govern this data to ensure that they are not only know managed will secure as well as they also have to meet the compliance requirements off the organization's right. That is where we help organizations toe secure on Meet the regulations off the organizations. As for the privacy laws, so this is a constant process. It's not on one time effort. We do a constant process because every organization goes towards their digital journey on. They have to face all these as part off the evolving environment on digital journey. And that's where they should be kept ready in terms off. No recovering, rebounding on moving forward if things goes wrong. >>So let's stick on that for a minute, and then I wanna bring yourself into the conversation. So you mentioned compliance and governance when when your digital business, you're, as you say, you're a data business, so that brings up issues. Data sovereignty. Uh, there's governance, this compliance. There's things like right to be forgotten. There's data privacy, so many things. These were often kind of afterthoughts for businesses that bolted on, if you will. I know a lot of executives are very much concerned that these air built in on, and it's not a one shot deal. So do you have solutions around compliance and governance? Can you deliver that as a service? Maybe you could talk about some of the specifics there, >>so some of way have offered multiple services. Tow our customers on digital against. On one of the key service is the data complaints. As a service here we help organizations toe map the key data against the data compliance requirements. Some of the features includes in terms off the continuous discovery off data right, because organizations keep adding on data when they move more digital on helping the helping and understanding the actual data in terms off the residents of data, it could be a heterogeneous data soldiers. It could be on data basis, or it could be even on the data legs. Or it could be a no even on compromise all the cloud environment. So identifying the data across the various no heterogeneous environment is very key. Feature off our solution. Once we identify classify this sensitive data, the data privacy regulations on the traveling laws have to be map based on the business rules So we define those rules on help map those data so that organizations know how critical their digital assets are. Then we work on a continuous marching off data for anomalies because that's one of the key teachers off the solution, which needs to be implemented on the day to day operational basis. So we're helping monitoring those anomalies off data for data quality management on an ongoing basis. On finally, we also bringing the automated data governance where we can manage the sensory data policies on their later relationships in terms off mapping on manage their business roots on we drive reputations toe Also suggest appropriate actions to the customers. Take on those specific data sets. >>Great. Thank you, Yousef. Thanks for being patient. I want to bring in Iota ho thio discussion and understand where your customers and happiest minds can leverage your data automation capability that you and I have talked about in the past. I'm gonna be great if you had an example is well, but maybe you could pick it up from there, >>John. I mean, at a high level, assertions are clearly articulated. Really? Um, Hyoty, who delivers business agility. So that's by, um accelerating the time to operationalize data, automating, putting in place controls and actually putting helping put in place digital resilience. I mean way if we step back a little bit in time, um, traditional resilience in relation to data often met manually, making multiple copies of the same data. So you have a d b A. They would copy the data to various different places, and then business users would access it in those functional style owes. And of course, what happened was you ended up with lots of different copies off the same data around the enterprise. Very inefficient. ONDA course ultimately, uh, increases your risk profile. Your risk of a data breach. Um, it's very hard to know where everything is. And I realized that expression. They used David the idea of the forced march to digital. So with enterprises that are going on this forced march, what they're finding is they don't have a single version of the truth, and almost nobody has an accurate view of where their critical data is. Then you have containers bond with containers that enables a big leap forward so you could break applications down into micro services. Updates are available via a p I s on. So you don't have the same need thio to build and to manage multiple copies of the data. So you have an opportunity to just have a single version of the truth. Then your challenge is, how do you deal with these large legacy data states that the service has been referring Thio, where you you have toe consolidate and that's really where I attack comes in. Um, we massively accelerate that process of putting in a single version of the truth into place. So by automatically discovering the data, discovering what's dubica? What's redundant? Uh, that means you can consolidate it down to a single trusted version much more quickly. We've seen many customers have tried to do this manually, and it's literally taken years using manual methods to cover even a small percentage of their I T estates. With our tire, you could do it really very quickly on you can have tangible results within weeks and months on Ben, you can apply controls to the data based on context. So who's the user? What's the content? What's the use case? Things like data quality validations or access permissions on. Then, once you've done there. Your applications and your enterprise are much more secure, much more resilient. As a result, you've got to do these things whilst retaining agility, though. So coming full circle. This is where the partnership with happiest minds really comes in as well. You've got to be agile. You've gotta have controls. Um, on you've got a drug toward the business outcomes. Uh, and it's doing those three things together that really deliver for the customer. >>Thank you. Use f. I mean you and I. In previous episodes, we've looked in detail at the business case. You were just talking about the manual labor involved. We know that you can't scale, but also there's that compression of time. Thio get to the next step in terms of ultimately getting to the outcome. And we talked to a number of customers in the Cube, and the conclusion is, it's really consistent that if you could accelerate the time to value, that's the key driver reducing complexity, automating and getting to insights faster. That's where you see telephone numbers in terms of business impact. So my question is, where should customers start? I mean, how can they take advantage of some of these opportunities that we've discussed today. >>Well, we've tried to make that easy for customers. So with our Tahoe and happiest minds, you can very quickly do what we call a data health check. Um, this is a is a 2 to 3 week process, uh, to really quickly start to understand on deliver value from your data. Um, so, iota, who deploys into the customer environment? Data doesn't go anywhere. Um, we would look at a few data sources on a sample of data. Onda. We can very rapidly demonstrate how they discovery those catalog e on understanding Jupiter data and redundant data can be done. Um, using machine learning, um, on how those problems can be solved. Um, And so what we tend to find is that we can very quickly, as I say in the matter of a few weeks, show a customer how they could get toe, um, or Brazilian outcome on then how they can scale that up, take it into production on, then really understand their data state? Better on build. Um, Brasiliense into the enterprise. >>Excellent. There you have it. We'll leave it right there. Guys, great conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Best of luck to you and the partnership Be well, >>Thank you, David Suresh. Thank you. Thank >>you for watching everybody, This is Dave Volonte for the Cuban are ongoing Siris on data automation without >>Tahoe, digital resilience, automated compliance, privacy and security for your multi cloud. Congratulations. You're on the journey. You have successfully transformed your organization by moving to a cloud based platform to ensure business continuity in these challenging times. But as you scale your digital activities, there is an inevitable influx of users that outpaces traditional methods of cybersecurity, exposing your data toe underlying threats on making your company susceptible toe ever greater risk to become digitally resilient. Have you applied controls your data continuously throughout the data lifecycle? What are you doing to keep your customer on supply data private and secure? I owe Tahoe's automated sensitive data. Discovery is pre programmed with over 300 existing policies that meet government mandated risk and compliance standards. Thes automate the process of applying policies and controls to your data. Our algorithm driven recommendation engine alerts you to risk exposure at the data level and suggests the appropriate next steps to remain compliant on ensure sensitive data is secure. Unsure about where your organization stands in terms of digital resilience. Sign up for our minimal cost commitment. Free data health check. Let us run our sensitive data discovery on key unmapped data silos and sources to give you a clear understanding of what's in your environment. Book time within Iot. Tahoe Engineer. Now. >>Okay, now we're >>gonna go into the demo. We want to get a better understanding of how you can leverage open shift. And I owe Tahoe to facilitate faster application deployment. Let me pass the mic to Sabetta. Take it away. >>Uh, thanks, Dave. Happy to be here again, Guys, uh, they've mentioned names to be the Davis. I'm the enterprise account executive here. Toyota ho eso Today we just wanted to give you guys a general overview of how we're using open shift. Yeah. Hey, I'm Noah Iota host data operations engineer, working with open ship. And I've been learning the Internets of open shift for, like, the past few months, and I'm here to share. What a plan. Okay, so So before we begin, I'm sure everybody wants to know. Noel, what are the benefits of using open shift. Well, there's five that I can think of a faster time, the operation simplicity, automation control and digital resilience. Okay, so that that's really interesting, because there's an exact same benefits that we had a Tahoe delivered to our customers. But let's start with faster time the operation by running iota. Who on open shift? Is it faster than, let's say, using kubernetes and other platforms >>are >>objective iota. Who is to be accessible across multiple cloud platforms, right? And so by hosting our application and containers were able to achieve this. So to answer your question, it's faster to create and use your application images using container tools like kubernetes with open shift as compared to, like kubernetes with docker cry over container D. Okay, so we got a bit technical there. Can you explain that in a bit more detail? Yeah, there's a bit of vocabulary involved, uh, so basically, containers are used in developing things like databases, Web servers or applications such as I have top. What's great about containers is that they split the workload so developers can select the libraries without breaking anything. And since Hammond's can update the host without interrupting the programmers. Uh, now, open shift works hand in hand with kubernetes to provide a way to build those containers for applications. Okay, got It s basically containers make life easier for developers and system happens. How does open shift differ from other platforms? Well, this kind of leads into the second benefit I want to talk about, which is simplicity. Basically, there's a lot of steps involved with when using kubernetes with docker. But open shift simplifies this with their source to image process that takes the source code and turns it into a container image. But that's not all. Open shift has a lot of automation and features that simplify working with containers, an important one being its Web console. Here. I've set up a light version of open ship called Code Ready Containers, and I was able to set up her application right from the Web console. And I was able to set up this entire thing in Windows, Mac and Lennox. So its environment agnostic in that sense. Okay, so I think I've seen the top left that this is a developers view. What would a systems admin view look like? It's a good question. So here's the administrator view and this kind of ties into the benefit of control. Um, this view gives insights into each one of the applications and containers that are running, and you could make changes without affecting deployment. Andi can also, within this view, set up each layer of security, and there's multiple that you can prop up. But I haven't fully messed around with it because with my luck, I'd probably locked myself out. So that seems pretty secure. Is there a single point security such as you use a log in? Or are there multiple layers of security? Yeah, there are multiple layers of security. There's your user login security groups and general role based access controls. Um, but there's also a ton of layers of security surrounding like the containers themselves. But for the sake of time, I won't get too far into it. Okay, eso you mentioned simplicity In time. The operation is being two of the benefits. You also briefly mention automation. And as you know, automation is the backbone of our platform here, Toyota Ho. So that's certainly grabbed my attention. Can you go a bit more in depth in terms of automation? Open shift provides extensive automation that speeds up that time the operation. Right. So the latest versions of open should come with a built in cryo container engine, which basically means that you get to skip that container engine insulation step and you don't have to, like, log into each individual container host and configure networking, configure registry servers, storage, etcetera. So I'd say, uh, it automates the more boring kind of tedious process is Okay, so I see the iota ho template there. What does it allow me to do? Um, in terms of automation in application development. So we've created an open shift template which contains our application. This allows developers thio instantly, like set up our product within that template. So, Noah Last question. Speaking of vocabulary, you mentioned earlier digital resilience of the term we're hearing, especially in the banking and finance world. Um, it seems from what you described, industries like banking and finance would be more resilient using open shift, Correct. Yeah, In terms of digital resilience, open shift will give you better control over the consumption of resource is each container is using. In addition, the benefit of containers is that, like I mentioned earlier since Hammond's can troubleshoot servers about bringing down the application and if the application does go down is easy to bring it back up using templates and, like the other automation features that open ship provides. Okay, so thanks so much. Know us? So any final thoughts you want to share? Yeah. I just want to give a quick recap with, like, the five benefits that you gained by using open shift. Uh, the five are timeto operation automation, control, security and simplicity. You could deploy applications faster. You could simplify the workload you could automate. A lot of the otherwise tedious processes can maintain full control over your workflow. And you could assert digital resilience within your environment. Guys, >>Thanks for that. Appreciate the demo. Um, I wonder you guys have been talking about the combination of a Iot Tahoe and red hat. Can you tie that in subito Digital resilience >>Specifically? Yeah, sure, Dave eso when we speak to the benefits of security controls in terms of digital resilience at Io Tahoe, we automated detection and apply controls at the data level, so this would provide for more enhanced security. >>Okay, But so if you were trying to do all these things manually. I mean, what what does that do? How much time can I compress? What's the time to value? >>So with our latest versions, Biota we're taking advantage of faster deployment time associated with container ization and kubernetes. So this kind of speeds up the time it takes for customers. Start using our software as they be ableto quickly spin up io towel on their own on premise environment are otherwise in their own cloud environment, like including aws. Assure or call GP on IBM Cloud a quick start templates allow flexibility deploy into multi cloud environments all just using, like, a few clicks. Okay, so so now just quickly add So what we've done iota, Who here is We've really moved our customers away from the whole idea of needing a team of engineers to apply controls to data as compared to other manually driven work flows. Eso with templates, automation, previous policies and data controls. One person can be fully operational within a few hours and achieve results straight out of the box on any cloud. >>Yeah, we've been talking about this theme of abstracting the complexity. That's really what we're seeing is a major trend in in this coming decade. Okay, great. Thanks, Sabina. Noah, How could people get more information or if they have any follow up questions? Where should they go? >>Yeah, sure. They've. I mean, if you guys are interested in learning more, you know, reach out to us at info at iata ho dot com to speak with one of our sales engineers. I mean, we love to hear from you, so book a meeting as soon as you can. All >>right. Thanks, guys. Keep it right there from or cube content with.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Hi. I'm still Minuteman. And welcome back to the Cube on Cloud. Talking about really important topics is toe how developers we're changing how they build their applications where they live. Of course. Long discussion we've had for a number of years, you know? How do things change in hybrid environment? We've been talking for years. Public cloud and Private Cloud and really excited for this session. We're gonna talk about how edge environment and ai impact that. So happy to walk back. One of our cube alumni, Simon Crosby, is currently the chief technology officer with swim. Got plenty of viewpoints on AI the edge and knows the developer world. Well, Simon, welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you, sir, for having me. >>All right. So let let let's start start for a second. Let's talk about developers, you know, used to be, you know, for for years we talked about, you know, what's the level of abstraction we get? Does it sit? You know, you know, do I put it on bare metal? Do I virtualized it? Do I contain Arise it. Do I make it serve? Ellis? Ah, lot of those things. You know that the app developer doesn't want to even think about. But location matters a whole lot when we're talking about things like a I where do I have all my data? That I could do my training? Where do I actually have to do the processing? And, of course, edge. Just changes by orders of magnitude, Some of the things like Leighton see, and where data lives and everything like that. So with that as a set up would love to get just your framework as to what you're hearing from developers and what will gettinto Some of the solutions that that you and your team are helping them toe do their jobs >>where you're up to lights to the data onslaught is very riel. Companies that I deal with are facing more and more real time data from products from their infrastructure from their partners, whatever it happens to be, and they need to make decisions rapidly. And the problem that they're facing is that traditional ways of processing that data or to so so perhaps the big data approach which by now is a bit old. It's been long in the tooth, Um, where you stored it and then you analyze it later is problematic. First of all, data streams of boundless so you don't really know winter analyze. But second, you can't store all. And so the story and analyze approach has to change and swim is trying to do something about this by adopting a process off. Analyze um, on the fly. So as dead is generate as you receive events, you don't bother Saw them. You you analyze them, and then if you have tow you still the data. But you you need to analyze as you receive data. Andre react immediately to be able to generate reasonable insights or predictions that can drive commerce and decisions in the real world. >>Yeah, absolutely. I remember back, you know, the early days of big data, you know, real time got thrown around a little, but it was usually I need to react fast enough toe. Make sure we don't, you know, lose the customer, we react toe something. But it was we gather all the data and let's move compute to the data. Uh, today is you talk about real time streams are so important. We've been talking about observe ability for last couple of years to just really understand the systems and the outputs More than, uh, looking back historically at where things were waiting for alerts. So could you give us some examples, if you would, Is toe You know that those streams, you know what is so important about being able to interact and leverage that data when you need it? And, boy, it's great if we can if we can use it then and not have to store it and think about it later. Obviously, there's some benefits there because >>every product nowadays has a CPU, right? And so there's more and more data and just let me give you an example. Um, swim processes real time data from more than 100 million mobile devices in real time, Um, in for a mobile operator. And what we're doing there is We're optimizing connection quality between devices and the network. Now that volume of data is more than four petabytes per day. Okay, now there is simply no way you could ever store that and analyze it later. The interesting thing about this is that if you adopt and analyze. And then if you really have to store architecture, you get to take advantage of Muslim. So you're running at CPU memory speeds instead of a disc speed, and so that gives you a million fold speed up. And it also means you don't have the Leighton see problem off reaching out to her boat storage, dead base or whatever. And so that reduces cost so we can do it all about 10% of the infrastructure that they previously had for her do style implementation. >>So maybe would help if we just explain when we say edge, people think of a lot of different things. Is it? You know, on I o. T device sitting out into the edge Are we talking about the telecom edge? We're watching a WS for years, you know, Spider out their services and into various environment. So what when you talk about the type of solutions you're doing and what your customers have is that the Telkom edges that the, you know, actual device edge, you know, where where does processing happen and where do these, you know, services that that work on it live? >>Uh, so I think the right way to think about edges. Where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have. But much data is encrypted between the original device. Say Onda. The application and so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze data in the clear. So is computing is not so much a place in my view as the first opportunity you have to process state in the clear and to make sense of it. And then edge makes sense in terms of Leighton, see, by locating compute as close as possible to the sources of data, um, to reduce latency and maximize your ability to get insights. You know, Andre return to uses in, you know, quickly. So edge for me often is the cloud >>excellent. One of the other things I I think about back from, you know, the big data days or even earlier It was that how long it took to get from the raw data to processing that data, to be able to getting some insight and then being able to take action. Uh, it sure sounds like we're trying to collapse That completely. Is that you know, how do we do that? You know, Can we actually, you know, build the system so that we can, you know, in that real time continuous model that you talk about, You know? So what character movements? One >>of the wonderful things about cloud computing is that two major abstractions really served us on. Those are rest which expect this computing and databases and rest means in the old server can do the job for me. And then the database is just a napi I call away. The problem with that is that it's desperately slow. So when I say desperately slow, I mean, it's probably thrown away the last 10 years, Um, was law. Just think about this way. Your CPU runs at gigahertz and the network runs at milliseconds. So by definition, every time you reach out to a data store, you're going a million times slower than your Cebu. That's terrible. It's absolutely tragic. Okay, so a model which is much more effective is to have and in memory, computing architecture er in which you engage in state will computation. So instead of having to reach out to a database every time to update the database and whatever you know, store something and then fetch it again a few moments later when the next event arrives. You keep state in memory and you compute on the fly as data arrives and that way you get a million times speed up. You also end up with this tremendous cost direction because you don't end up with as many instances having to compute by comparison. So let me give you a quick example. If you go to a traffic dots from the AI, you can see, um, the real time state off the traffic infrastructure in Palo Alto. And, um, each one of those, um intersections is predicting its own future. Now, the volume of data from just a few 100 lights in Palo Alto is about four terabyte today. And sure, you can deal with this in AWS Lambda. There are lots and lots of servers up there. But the problem is that the end to end per event leighton see, is about 100 milliseconds. And you know, if I'm dealing with 30,000 events a second, that's just too much so solving that problem with a stateless architectures is extraordinarily expensive. You know, more than $5000 a month. Where is the staple architectural? Which you could think of as an evolution all for, uh, you know, something reactive or the actor model, Um, get you, You know, something like 1/10 of the cost. Okay, so cloud is fabulous for things that need to scale wide, but a state formal is required for dealing with things which update you rapidly or regularly about their changes in state. >>Yeah, absolutely. I You know, I think about if we were talking, I mentioned before AI training models often, if you look at something like autonomous vehicles, the massive amounts of data that it needs to process, you know, has to happen in the public cloud. Um, but then that gets pushed back down to the end device. In this case, it's a car because it needs to be able to react in real time and get fed at a regular update. The new training algorithms that that it has there. Um what are you saying? You know, we >>were reviews on on this training approach and the science in general, and that is that there aren't enough the scientists or no smart people to train these algorithms, deploy them to the edge and so on. And so there is an alternative worldview, which is a much simpler one, and that is that relatively simple algorithms deployed at scale to staple representatives. Their school, you know, digital twins off things, um, can deliver enormous improvements in behavior. Um, as things learn for themselves. So the way I think the at least this edge world gets smaller is that relatively simple models off things will learn for themselves for their own futures based on what they can see and and then react. And so this idea that we have lots and lots of very scientists dealing with vast amounts of information in the cloud, Um, it's suitable for certain algorithms, but it doesn't work for the vast majority of our applications. >>So where are we with the state of what the developers need to think about? You mentioned that there's compute in most devices. That's true, but you know they need some special in video chip set out there. Are there certain programming languages that that you're seeing more prevalent? Yeah, you know, interoperability. Give us a little bit of toe, you know, some tips and tricks for for those developing >>super so number one a staple architectures is fundamental and sure react is well known. Andi, there are, For example, on er lang swim is another. So I'm going to use some language. And I would encourage you to look at Cem O s or G to go from play there. A staple architecture, ER which allows actors small, concurrent objects to Stapley evolve their own state based on updates from the real world is fundamental. But the way in swim, we use data to build these models. So, um, these little agents for things we call them Web agents because the object I'd is a your I, um they staple evolved by processing their own real world data safely representing it. And then they do this wonderful thing, which is build a model on the fly, and they build a model by linking to things that they're related to. So a knit section would link to all of its sensors. But it would also licked all of its neighbors because the neighbors and linking is like a sub in pubs up and it allows that Web agent then to continually analyze, learn and predict on the fly. And so every one of these concurrent objects is doing this job off and analyzing its own raw data and then predicting from that and streaming the results so and swim you get stream board data in. And what streams out is predictions. Predictions about the future state off the infrastructure, and that's a very powerful staple approach, which can run all the memory. No stories required, by the way. It's still persistence. If you lose the no, you can just come back up and carry on. But there's no need to store huge amounts of raw data if you don't need it. And let me just be clear. The volumes of raw data from the real world are staggering, right? So for Porter by today from Palo Alto. But Las Vegas, about 60 terabytes today from the traffic lights, Um, no more than 100 million mobile devices is is tens of petabytes per day, which is just too much the store. >>Well, Simon, you'd mentioned that we we have a shortage when it comes to data scientists and the people that could be involved in those things. How about from the developer side? Do most enterprises that you're talking to? Do they have the skill set? Is the ecosystem mature enough for the company take involved? Or what do we need to do? Looking forward, toa help companies be able to take advantage of this opportunity. >>Yeah, So there is a huge change in terms of, I guess just cloud native skills. Um, and this is exacerbated. The more you get out into, I guess what you could think of as traditional kind of companies, all of whom have tons and tons of data sources. So we need to make it easy and swim tries to do this by effectively using skills of people already have Java or JavaScript and giving them easy ways to develop, deploy and then run applications without thinking about them. So instead of finding developers to notions of place and where databases are and all that sort of stuff, if they can write simple, object oriented programs about things like intersections and push buttons, a pedestrian lights, and in road loops and so on and simply relate basic objects in their world to each other, then we let data build the model by essentially creating these little concurrent objects for each thing, and they will then link to each other and solve the problem. We end up solving a huge problem for developers to which is that they don't need to acquire complicated cloud native skill sets to get to work. >>Well, absolutely. Simon, that's something we've been trying to do for a long time. Is to truly simplify things. I wanna let you have the final word. Uh, if you look out there, uh, the opportunity that challenge in the space, what final takeaways would would you get our audience? >>So very simple. If you adopt a staple competing Achter should like swim, you get to go a million times faster. The applications always have an answer. They analyze, learn and predict on the fly, and they go million times faster. They use 10% less. No. So 10% off the infrastructure of a store than analyze approach. And it's the way of the future. >>Simon Crosby. Thanks so much for sharing. Great having you on the program. >>Thank you too. >>And thank you for joining. I'm stew Minuteman. Thank you. As always for watching the cube. Yeah,

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of workplace next made possible by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >>Hello, everyone. We're here covering workplace next on the Cube For years, you know, we've talked about new ways to work, and it was great thought exercise. And then overnight the pandemic heightened the challenges of creating an effective work force. Most of the executives that we talked to in our survey say that productivity actually has improved since the work from Home Mandate was initiative. But, you know, we're talking not just about productivity, but the well being of our associates and managing the unknown. We're going to shift gears a little bit now. We've heard some interesting real world examples of how organizations are dealing with the rapid change in workplace, and we've heard about some lessons to take into the future. But now we're going to get more practical and look at some of the tools that are available to help you navigate. The changes that we've been discussing and with me to talk about these trends related to the future of work are are are Qadoura, who's the vice president of worldwide sales and go to market for Green Lake at HP Sadat Malik is the VP of I O t and Intelligent Edge at HP and Satish Yarra Valley is the global cloud and infrastructure practice Head at Whip Probe guys welcomes. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having us. >>You're very welcome. Let me start with Sadat. You're coming from Austin, Texas here. So thank you. Stay crazy. As they say in Austin, for the uninitiated, maybe you could talk a little bit about h p E point. Next. It's a strategic component of H p. E. And maybe tell us a little bit about those services. >>Thank you so much for taking the time today. Appreciate everybody's participation here. So absolutely so point Next is HP Services on. This is the 23,000 strong organization globally spread out, and we have a very strong ecosystem of partners that be leveraged to deliver services to our customers. Um, our organization differentiates itself in the market by focusing on digital digital transformation journeys for our customers. For customers looking toe move to a different way off, engaging with its customers, transforming the way its employees work, figuring out a different way off producing the products that it sells to. His customers are changing the way it operationalize these things. For example, moving to the cloud going to a hybrid model, we help them achieve any of these four transformation outcomes. So point next job is toe point. What is next in this digital transformation journey and then partner with our customers to make that happen? So that's what we do. >>Thank you for that. I mean, obviously, you're gonna be seeing a lot of activity around workplace with shift from work from home, changes in the network changes in security. I mean the whole deal. What are some of your top takeaways that you can share with our audience? >>Yeah, they're >>so a lot has been happening in the workplace arena lately. So this is not new, right? This is not something that all of a sudden side happening when Kobe 19 hit, uh, the digital workplace was already transforming before over 19 happened. What over 19 has done is that it has massively accelerated the pace at which this change was happening. So, for example, right remote work was already there before over 19. But now everybody is working remotely so, in many ways, the solution that we have for remote work. They have been strained to appoint, never seen before. Networks that support these remote work environments have been pushed to their limits. Security was already there, right? So security was a critical piece off any off the thinking, any of the frameworks that we had. But now security is pivotal and central. Any discussion that we're having about the workplace environment data is being generated all across the all across the environment that we operated, right? So it's no longer being generated. One place being stored. Another. It's all over the place now. So what Kobe, 19 has done is that the transformation that was already underway in the digital workplace, it has taken that and accelerated it massive. The key take away for me is right that we have to make sure that when we're working with our customers, our clients, we don't just look at the technology aspect of things. We have to look at all the other aspect as well the people in the process aspect off this environment. It is critical that we don't assume that just because the technology is there to address these challenges that I just mentioned. Our people and our processes would be able to handle that as well. We need to bring everybody along. Everybody has different needs, and we need to be able to cater to those needs effectively. So that's my biggest take away. Make sure that the process and the people aspect of things was hand in glove with the technology that we were able to bring to bear here. >>Got it. Thank you. So, ah, let's go to San Francisco, bringing our war to the conversation. You're one of your areas of focus is is HP Green Lake. You guys were early on with the as a service model. Clearly, we've seen Mawr interest in cloud and cloud like models. I wonder if you could just start by sharing. What's Green Lake all about? Where does it fit into this whole workplace? Next, Uh, conversation that we're having? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um HP Green lake effectively is the cloud that comes to your data center to your Coehlo or to your edge, right? We saw with Public Cloud. The public cloud brought a ton of innovations, um, into the sort of hyper scale model. Now, with HP. What we've done is we've said, Look, customers need this level of innovation and this level of, you know, pay as you go economics the, you know, management layer the automation layer not just in a public cloud environment, but also in our customers data center or to the other potential edges or Coehlo scenarios. And what we've done is we've brought together Asada just mentioned the best of our point next services our software management layer as well as H. P. E s rich portfolio of hardware to come together to create that cloud experience. Um, of course, we can't do this without the rich ecosystem around us as well. And so everything from you know, some of our big S I partners like we bro, who also have the virtual desktop expertise or virtual desk that then come together to start helping us launch some of these new workloads supported cloud services such as D. D i eso for my perspective, v. D. I is the most important topic for a lot of our customers right now, especially in sectors like financial services, um, advanced engineering scenarios and health care where they need access to those, uh to their data centers in a very secure way and in a highly cost optimized way as well. >>Well, okay. Thank you. And then let's let's bring in, uh, petition talk a little bit about the ecosystem. I mean, we're pro. That's really kind of your wheelhouse. We've been talking a lot on the cube about moving from an industry of point products to platforms and now ecosystem innovation, Uh, are are mentioned VD I we saw that exploding eso teach. Maybe you could weigh in here and and share with us what you're seeing in the market and specifically around ecosystem. >>As we all know, the pandemic has redefined the way we collaborate to support this collaboration. We have set up huge campuses and office infrastructure In summary, our industry has centralized approach. Now, the very premise of the centralization bringing people together for work has changed. This evolving workspace dynamics have triggered the agency to reimagine the workspace strategy. CEO, CEO S and C H R ose are all coming together to redefine the business process and find new ways off engaging with customers and employees as organizations embrace work from home for the foreseeable future. Customer need to create secure by design workspaces for remote working environments. With the pro virtual disk platform, we can help create such seamless distal workspaces and enable customers to connect, collaborate and communicate with ease from anywhere securely. They're consistent user experience. Through this platform led approach, we are able to utter the market demands which are focused on business outcomes. >>Okay, and this is the specifics of this hard news that you're talking about Video on demand and Citrix coming together with your ecosystem. H p E were pro and again, the many partners that you work with is that correct? >>Well, actually, Dave, we see a strong playoff ecosystem partners coming together to achieve transformative business outcomes. As Arbor said earlier, HP and Wipro have long standing partnership, and today's announcement around HP Green Lake is an extension off this collaboration, where we provide leverage HP Green Leg Andre Pro, which elders platform to offer video as a service in a paper user model. Our aim is to enable customers fast track there. It is still works based transformation efforts by eliminating the need to support upfront capital investments and old provisioning costs while allowing customers to enjoy the benefit off compromise, control, security and compliance. Together, we have implemented our solution across various industry segments and deliver exceptional customer experiences by helping customer businesses in their workspace. Transformation journeys by defining their workspace strategy with an intelligent, platform led approach that enables responsiveness, scalability and resilience. It's known that Wipro is recognized as a global leader in the distal workspace and video I, with HP being a technology leader, enabling us with high level of program ability on integration capabilities. We see tremendous potential to jointly address the industry challenges as we move forward. >>Excellent. Uh, sad. I wanna come back to you. We talk a lot about the digital business, the mandate for digital business, especially with the pandemic. Let's talk about data. Earlier this year, HP announced the number of solutions that used data to help organizations work more productively safely. You know, the gamut talk about data and the importance of data and what you guys were doing there specifically, >>Yeah, that's a great question. So that is fundamental to everything that we're doing in the workplace arena, right? So from a technology perspective that provides us with the wherewithal to be able to make all the changes that we want to make happen for the people in the process side of things. So the journey that we've been on this past year is a very interesting one. Let me share with the audience a little bit of what's been going on on the ground with our customers. Um, what's what's been happening in the field? So when the when Kobe 19 hit right, a lot of our customers were subjected to these shutdown, which were very pervasive, and they had to stop their operations. In many cases, they had to send their employees home. So at that point, HB stepped in the point. Next organization stepped in and helped these customers set up remote work out options, which allowed them to keep their businesses going while they handle these shutdowns. Fast forward. Six months and the shutdown. We're starting to get lifted and our customers were coming back to us and saying to us that Hey, we would now like to get a least a portion off our workforce back to the normal place of work. But we're concerned that if we do that, it's gonna jeopardize their safety because off the infection concerned that were there. So what we did was that we built a cities or five solutions using various types of video analytics and data analysis analysis technologies that allowed these customers to make that move. So these five solutions, uh, let me walk, walk our customers and our clients and audience through those. The first two of these solutions are touchless entry and fever detection. So this is the access control off your premise, right? So to make sure that whoever is entering the building that's in a safe manner and any infection concerned, we stop it at the very get go once the employees inside the workplace, the next thing that we have is a set of two solutions. What one is social distance tracing and tracking, and the other one is workplace alerting. What these two solutions do is that they use video analytics and data technology is to figure out if there is a concern with employees adhering to the various guidelines that are in place on alerting the employees and the employers if there is any infringement happening which could risk overall environment. Finally, we realized right that irrespective off how much technology and process we put in place. Not everybody will be able to come into the normal place of work. So what we have done is that the first solution that we have is augmented reality and visual remote guidance. This solution uses a our technologies allow. People were on site to take advantage of the expertise that resides offsite to undertake complex task task, which could be as complex as overhauling a machine on ah factory floor using augmented reality where somebody off site who's an expert in that machine is helping somebody on site data has become central to a lot of the things that we do. But as I said, technology is one aspect of things. So ultimately the people process technology continuum has to come together to make these solutions real for our customers. >>Thank you, Arwa. We just have just about 30 seconds left and I wonder if you could close on. We're talking about cloud hybrid. Uh, everybody's talking about hybrid. We're talking about the hybrid workplace. What do you see for the for the future over the next 2345 years? >>Absolutely. And I think you're right, Dave. It is, ah, hybrid world. It's a multi cloud world. Ultimately, what our customers want is the choice and the flexibility to bring in the capabilities that drive the business outcomes that they need to support. And that has multiple dimensions, right? It's making sure that they are minimizing their egress costs, right. And many of our on Prem solutions do give them that flexibility. It is the paper use economics that we talked about. It is about our collective capability as an ecosystem to come together. You know, with Citrix and NVIDIA with R s I partner we pro and the rich heritage of HP es services as well as hardware to bring together these solutions that are fully managed on behalf of our customers so that they can focus their staff their i t capabilities on the products and services they need to deliver to their customers. >>Awesome. Guys, I wish we had more time. We got to go day volonte for the cube. Keep it right there. Lots of great more content coming your way. >>Yeah,

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around >>the world. This is a cute conversation high, but this is Day Volonte. And as you know, we've been tracking the next generation of clouds. Sometimes we call it Cloud to two point. Frank's Lukman is here to really unpack this with me. Frank. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Yeah, you as well. They could see it >>s o obviously hot off your AIPO A lot of buzz around that. Uh, that's fine. We could we could talk about that, but I really want to talk about the future. What? Before we get off the I p o. That was something you told me when you're CEO service. Now you said, hey, we're priced to perfection, so it looks like snowflakes gonna be priced to perfection. It's a marathon, though. You You made that clear. I presume it's not any different here for you. Yeah, >>well, I think you know the service now. Journey was different in the sense that we were kind of under the underdogs, and people sort of discovered over the years the full potential of the company and I think there's stuff like they pretty much discovered a day. One. It's a little bit more, More sometimes it's nice to be an underdog. Were a bit of an over dog in this, uh, this particular scenario, but, you know, it is what it is, Andre. You know, it's all about execution delivering the results, delivering on our vision, Uh, you know, being great with our customers. And, uh, hopefully the chips will fall where they where they may. At that point, >>yeah, you're you're You're a poorly kept secret at this point, Frank. After a while, I wanted, you know, I've got some excerpts of your book that that I've been reading. And, of course, I've been following your career since the two thousands. You're off sailing. You mentioned in your book that you were kind of retired. You were done, and then you get sucked back in now. Why? I mean, are you in this for the sport? What's the story here? >>Uh, actually, that that's not a bad way of characterizing it. I think I am in that, uh, you know, for the sport, uh, you know the only way to become the best version of yourself is to be to be under the gun and, uh, you know, every single day. And that's that's certainly what we are. It sort of has its own rewards building great products, building great companies, regardless off you know what the spoils. Maybe it has its own rewards. And I It's hard for people like us to get off the field and, you know, hang it up. So here we are. >>You know, you're putting forth this vision now the data cloud, which obviously it's good marketing, but I'm really happy because I don't like the term Enterprise Data Warehouse. I don't think it reflects what you're trying to accomplish. E D. W. It's slow on Lee. A few people really know how to use it. The time value of data is gone by the time you know, your business is moving faster than the data in the D. W. And it really became a savior because of Sarbanes Oxley. That's really what it came a reporting mechanism. So I've never seen What you guys are doing is is e d w. So I want you to talk about the data cloud. I want to get into the to the vision a little bit and maybe challenge you on a couple things so our audience can better understand it. Yes. So >>the notion of a data cloud is is actually, uh, you know, type of cloud that we haven't had. I mean, data has been been fragmented and locked up in a million different places in different clouds. Different cloud regions, obviously on premise, um, And for data science teams, you know, they're trying thio drive analysis across datasets, which is incredibly hard, Which is why you know, a lot of this resorts to, you know, programming on bond things of that sort of. ITT's hardly scalable because the data is not optimized. The economics are not optimized. There's no governance model and so on. But a data cloud is actually the ability thio loosely couple and lightly Federated uh, data, regardless of where it is. So it doesn't have scale limitations or performance limitations. Uh, the way traditional data warehouses have had it. So we really have a fighting chance off really killing the silos and unlocking the bunkers and allowing the full promise of data sciences and ml On day I thio really happen. I mean, a lot of lot of the analysis that happens on data is on the single data set because it's just too damn hard, you know, to drive analysis across multiple data sets. And, you know, when we talk to our customers, they have very precise designs on what they're trying to do. They say, Look, we are trying to discover, you know, through through through deep learning You know what the patterns are that lead to transactions. You know, whether it's if you're streaming company. Maybe it's that you're signing up for a channel or you're buying a movie or whatever it is. What is the pattern you know, of data points that leads us to that desired outcome. Once you have a very accurate description of the data relationships, you know that results in that outcome, you can then search for it and scale it, you know, tens of million times over. That's what digital enterprises do, right? So in order to discover these patterns enriched the data to the point where the patterns become incredibly predictive. Uh, that's that's what snowflake is formed, right? But it requires a completely Federated Data mo because you're not gonna find a data pattern in the in the single data set per se right? So that's that's what it's all about. I mean, the outcomes of a data cloud are very, very closely related to the business outcomes that the user is seeking, right? It's not some infrastructure process. It has a very remote relationship with business outcome. This is very, very closely related. >>So it doesn't take a brain surgeon to look at the Trillion Years Club. And so I could see that I could see the big you know, trillion dollars apple $2 trillion market cap companies. They got data at the core, whereas most companies most incumbents. Yeah, it might be a bottling plant that the core, some manufacturing or some other processes they put, they put data around it in these silos. It seems like you're trying toe really? Bring that innovation and put data at the core. And you've got an architecture to do that. You talk about your multi cluster shared storage architecture. You mentioned you mentioned data sharing it. Will this, in your opinion, enable, for instance, incumbents to do what a lot of the startups were able to do with the cloud days? I mean they got access to data centers, which they they couldn't have before the cloud you're trying to do with something similar with data. >>Yeah, so So, you know, obviously there's no doubt that the cloud is a critical enabler. This wouldn't be happening. Uh, you know what? I was at the same time, the trails that have been blessed by the likes of Facebook and Google. Uh, e the reason those enterprises are so extraordinary valuable is is because of what they know. Uh, you know, through data and how they can monetize what they know through data. But that is now because that power is now becoming available, you know, to every single enterprise out there. Right, Because the data platform, the underlying cloud capabilities, we are now delivering that to anybody who wants it. Now, you still need to have strong date engineering data science capabilities. It's not like falling off a log, but fundamentally, those capabilities are now, you know, broadly accessible in the marketplace. >>So we're talking upfront about some of the differences between what you've done earlier in your career. Like I said, you're the worst kept secret, you know, Data domain. I would say it was sort of somewhat of a niche market. You you blew it up until it was very disruptive, but it was somewhat limited in what could be done. Uh, and and maybe some of that limitation, you know, wouldn't have occurred if you stay the price, uh, independent company service. Now you mop the table up because you really had no competition there, Not the case here. You you've got some of the biggest competitors in the world, so talk about that. And what gives you confidence that you can continue to dominate, >>But, you know, it's actually interesting that you bring up these companies. I mean, data. The man was a scenario where we were constrained on market and literally we were a data backup company. As you recall, we needed to move into backup software. Need to move the primary storage. While we knew it, we couldn't execute on it because it took tremendous resource is which, back in the day, it was much harder than one of this right now. So we ended up selling the company to E M. C and and now part of Dell. But way short, uh, we're left with some trauma from that experience, Uh, that, you know, why couldn't we, you know, execute on that transformation? So coming to service now, we were extremely. I'm certainly need personally, extremely attuned to the challenges that we have endured in our prior company. One of the reasons why you saw service now break out at scale at tremendous growth rights is because of what we have learned from the prior journey. We're not gonna ever get caught again in a situation where we could not sustain our markets and sustain our growth. So if service I was very much the execution model was very much a reaction to what we had encountered in the prior company. Now coming into snowflake totally different deal. Because not only is there's a large market, this is a developing market. I think you've pointed out in some of your broadcasting that this market is very much in flux on the reason is that you know, technology is now capable of doing things for for people and enterprises that they could never do before. So people are spending way mawr resource is than they ever thought possible on these new capability. So you can't think in terms of static markets and static data definitions, it means nothing. Okay, These things are so in transition right now, it's very difficult for people you know to to scope that the scale of this opportunity. >>Yeah. I wanna understand you're thinking around and, you know, I've written about the TAM, and can Snowflake grow into its valuation and the way I drew it, I said, Okay, you got data Lakes and you got Enterprise Data Warehouse. That's pretty well understood. But I called it data as a service to cover the closest analogy to your data cloud. And then even beyond that, when you start bringing in the edge and real time data, uh, talk about how you're thinking about that, Tam. And what what you have to do to participate. You have toe, you know, bring adjacent capabilities, ISAT this read data sharing that will get you there. In other words, you're not like a transaction system. You hear people talking about converge databases, you hear? Talk about real time inference at the edge that today anyway, isn't what snowflake is about. Does that vision of data sharing and the data cloud does that allow you to participate in that massive, multi $100 billion tam that that I laid out and probably others as well. >>Yeah, well, it is always difficult. Thio defined markets based on historical concept that probably not gonna apply whole lot for much longer. I mean, the way we think of it is that data is the beating heart of the digital enterprise on, uh, you know, digital enterprises today. What do you look at? People against the car door dash or so on. Um, they were built from the ground up to be digital on the prices and data Is the beating heart off their operation Data operations is their manufacturing, if you will, um, every other enterprise out there is is working very hard to become digital or part digital and is going to learn to develop data platforms like what we're talking about here to data Cloud Azaz. Well, as the expertise in terms of data engineering and data scientist to really fully become a digital enterprise, right. So, you know, we view data as driving operations off the digital enterprise. That's really what it iss right data, and it's completely data driven. And there's no people involved. People are developing and supporting the process. But in the execution, it is end to end. Data driven. Being that data is the is the signal that initiates the process is technol assess. Their there being a detective, and then they fully execute the entire machinery probe Problematic machinery, if you will, um, you know, of the processes that have been designed, for example, you know, I may fit a certain pattern. You know, that that leads to some transactional context. But I've not fully completed that pattern until I click on some Lincoln. And all of a sudden proof I have become, you know, a prime prospect system, the text that in the real time and then unleashes Oh, it's outreach and capabilities to get me to transact me. You and I are experiencing this every day. You know, when we're when we're online, you just may not fully re election. That's what's happening behind the scenes. That's really what this is all about. So and so to me, this is sort of the new online transaction processing is enter and, uh, you know, data digital. Uh, no process that is continually acquiring, analyzing and acting on data. >>Well, you've talked about the time time value of of data. It loses value over time. And to the extent that you can actually affect decisions, maybe before you lose the customer before you lose the patient even even more importantly or before you lose the battle. Uh, there's all kinds of, you know, mental models that you can apply this. So automation is a key part of that. And then again, I think a lot of people like you said, if you just try to look at historical markets, you can't really squint through those and apply them. You really have toe open up your mind and think about the new possibilities. And so I could see your your component of automation. I I see what's happening in the r P. A space and and I could see See these this massive opportunities Thio really change society, change business, your last thoughts. >>There's just there's just no scenario that I can envision where data is not completely core in central to a digital enterprise, period. >>Yeah, I think I really do think, Frank, your your your Your vision is misunderstood somewhat. I think people say Okay. Hey, we'll bet on salute men Scarpelli the team. That's great to do that. But I think this is gonna unfold in a way that people may be having predicted that maybe you guys, yourselves and your founders, you know, haven't have aren't able to predict as well. But you've got that good, strong architectural philosophy that you're pursuing and it just kind of feels right, doesn't it? >>You know, I mean, one of the 100 conversations and, uh, you know, things is the one of the reasons why we also wrote our book. You know, the rights of the data cloud is to convey to the marketplace that this is not an incremental evolution, that this is not sort of building on the past. There is a real step function here on the way to think about it is that typically enterprises and institutions will look at a platform like snowflakes from a workload context. In other words, I have this business. I have this workload. This is very much historically defined, by the way. And then they benchmark us, you know, against what they're what they're already doing on some legacy platform. And they decided, like, Yeah, this is a good fit. We're gonna put Snowflake here. Maybe there, but it's still very workload centric, which means that we are essentially perpetuating the mentality off the past. Right? We were doing it. Wanna work, load of the time We're creating the new silos and the new bunkers of data in the process. And we're really not approaching this with level of vision that the data science is really required to drive maximum benefit from data. So our arguments and this is this is not an easy arguments is to say, toc IOS on any other sea level person that wants to listen to that look, you know, just thinking about, you know, operational context and operational. Excellent. It's like we have toe have a platform that allows us unfettered access to the data that, you know, we may need to, you know, bring the analytical power to right. If you have to bring in political power to a diversity of data sets, how are we going to do that right? The data lives in, like, 500 different places. It's just not possible, right, other than with insane amounts of programming and complexity, and then we don't have the performance, and we don't have to economics, and we don't have the governance and so on. So you really want to set yourself up with a data cloud so that you can unleash your data science, uh, capabilities, your machine learning your deep learning capabilities, aan den, you really get the full throttle advantage. You know of what the technology can do if you're going to perpetuate the silo and bunkering of data by doing it won't work. Load of the time. You know, 5, 10 years from now, we're having the same conversation we've been having over the last 40 years, you know? >>Yeah. Operationalize ing your data is gonna require busting down those those silos, and it's gonna require something like the data cloud to really power that to the next decade and beyond. Frank's movement Thanks so much for coming in. The Cuban helping us do a preview here of what's to come. >>You bet, Dave. Thanks. >>All right. Thank you for watching. Everybody says Dave Volonte for the Cube will see you next time

>>Hello, everyone. My name is John Jane Shake. I work from Iran. Tous Andi. I am here this afternoon very gratefully with Anders Vulcan, who is VP of technology strategy for cloud bees, a Miranda's partner and a well known company in the space that we're going to be discussing. Anders is also a well known entity in this space, which is continuous integration and continuous delivery. Um, you've seen already today some sessions that focus on specific implementations of continuous integration and delivery, um, particularly around security. And, uh, we think this is a critically important topic for anyone in the cloud space, particularly in this increasingly complicated kubernetes space. To understand, um, Miranda's thanks, Uh, if I can recapitulate our own our own strategy and, uh, and language that with complexity on uncertainty consistently increasing with the depth of the technology stacks that we have to deal with consistently, um um elaborating themselves that navigating this requires, um first three implementation of automation to increase speed, which is what C and C d do. Um, and that this speed ba leveraged toe let us ship and iterate code faster. Since that's ultimately the business that all of us air in one way or another. I would like, I guess, toe open this conversation by asking Onders what does he think of that core strategy? >>You know, I think you know, hitting the security thing, right? Right off the bat. You know, security doesn't happen by accident. You know, security is not something that you know, Like a like a server in a restaurant. You know, Sprinkles a little bit of Parmesan cheese right before they serve you the the food. It's not something you Sprinkle on at the end. It's something that has to be baked in from the beginning, not just in the kitchen, but in the supply chain from from from the very beginning. So the you know it's a feature, and if you don't build it, if you're not going to get an outcome that you're not gonna be happy with and I think the you know it's increasingly it's obviously increasingly important and increasingly visible. You know, the you know, the kinds of security problems that we that we see these days can can be, you know, life altering, for for people that are subject to them and and can be, you know, life or death for a company that that's exposed to it. So it's it's it's very, very important. Thio pay attention to it and to work to achieve that as an explicit outcome of the software delivery process. And I think, you know, C i n c d as as process as tooling as culture plays a big part in that because ah, lot of it has to do with, you know, set things up, right? Um run them the same way over and over, you know, get the machine going. Turned the crane. Now, you wanna you wanna make improvements over over time. You know, it's not just, you know, set it and forget it. You know, we got that set up. We don't have to worry about it anymore, but it really is a question of, you know, get the human out of the loop a lot of the times because if if you're dealing with configuring complex systems, you wanna make sure that you get them set up configured, you know, documented Ideally, you know, as code, whether it's a domain specific language or or something like that. And then that's something that you contest against that you can verify against that you can that you can difficult. And then that becomes the basis for for your, you know, for yourself, for pipelines, for your automation around, you know, kind of the software factory floor. So I think automation is a key aspect of that because it, you know, it takes a lot of the drudgery out of it, for one thing, So now the humans have more time to spend on doing on the on the creative things on the things that we're good at a zoo. Humans and it also make sure that, you know, one of the things that computers are really good at is doing the same thing over and over and over and over. Eso that kind of puts that responsibility into the hands of the entity that that knows how to do that well, which is which is the machine eso I think it's, you know, it's a light. It's a deep, deep topic, obviously, but, you know, automation plays into it. Uh, you know, small batch sizes play into it, you know, being able to test very frequently whether that's testing in. You're kind of you're C I pipeline where you're sort of doing building mostly unit testing, maybe some integration testing, but also in layering in the mawr. Serious kinds of testing in terms of security scanning, penetration, testing, vulnerability, scanning. You know those sorts of things which, you know, maybe you do on every single see I Bill. But most people don't because those things tend toe take a little bit longer on. And you know you want your sea ice cycle to be as fast as possible because that's really in service of the developer who has committed code and wants toe kind of see the thumbs up from the system saying it. And, um, so most organizations most organizations are are are focusing on, you know, making sure that there's a follow on pipeline to follow on set of tests that happened after the C I passes successfully and and that's, you know, where a lot of the security scanning and those sorts of things happen. >>It's a It's an interesting problem. I mean, you mentioned, um, what almost sounds like a Lawrence Lessig Ian kind of idea that, you know, code is law in enterprises today, code particularly see, I code ends up being policy, but At the same time, there's, Ah, it seems to me there's a an alternative peril, which is, as you increase speed, particularly when you become more and more dependent on things like containers and layering technology to provide components and capabilities that you don't have to build yourself to your build pipeline, that there are new vulnerabilities, potentially that creep in and can creep in despite automation. Zor at least 1st. 1st order automation is attempts toe to prevent them from creeping in. You don't wanna you wanna freeze people on a six month old version of a key container image. But on the other hand, if the latest version has vulnerabilities, that could be a problem. >>Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a double edged sword. It's two sides of the same coin. I think you know, when I talked to a lot of security people, um, you know, people to do it for a living is supposed to mean I just talk about it, um, that Z not completely true. But, um, the ah, lot of times the problem is old vulnerabilities. The thing that I think keeps a lot of people up at night isn't necessarily that the thing at the tip of the releases for particular, you know, well known open source, library or something like that. But that's gonna burn you all the vast majority of the time. And I want to say, like, 80 85% of the time. The vulnerability is that you that you get hosed by are ones that have been known about for years. And so I think the if I had to pick. So if you know, in that sort of two sides of that coin, if I had to pick, I would say Be aggressive in making sure that your third party dependencies are updated frequently and and continuously right, because that is the biggest, biggest cause of of of security vulnerabilities when it comes to third party code. Um, now you know the famous saying, You know, move fast and break things Well, there's certain things you don't want to break. You know you don't want to break a radiation machine that's going to deliver radio radiotherapy to someone because that will endanger their health. So So those sorts of systems, you know, naturally or subject a little bit more kind of caution and scrutiny and rigor and process those sorts of things. The micro service that I run that shows my little avatar when I log in, that one probably gets a little less group. You know, Andre rightfully so. So I think a lot of it has to do. And somebody once said in a I think it was, Ah, panel. I was on a PR say conference, which was, which was kind of a wise thing to say it was Don't spend a million dollars protecting a $5 assets. You know, you wanna be smart and you wanna you wanna figure out where your vulnerabilities they're going to come from and in my experience, and and you know, what I hear from a lot of the security professionals is pay attention to your supply chain. You're you want to make sure that you're up to date with the latest patches of, of all of your third party, you know, open source or close source. It doesn't really matter. I mean, if anything, you know, open source is is more open. Eso You could inspect things a little bit better than the close source, but with both kinds of streams of code that you consume and and use. You wanna make sure that you're you're more up to date as opposed to a less up to date? Um, that generally will be better. Now, can a new version of the library cause problems? You know, introduce bugs? You know, those sorts of things? Yes. That's why we have tests. That's what we have automated tests, regression, sweets, You know, those sorts of things. And so you wanna, you know, you wanna live in a in a world where you feel the confidence as a as a developer, that if I update this library from, you know, one debt owed at 3 to 1 debt owed at 10 to pick up a bunch of, you know, bug fixes and patches and those sorts of things. But that's not going to break some on demand in the test suites that that will run against that ought to cover that that sort of functionality. And I'd rather be in that world of Oh, yeah, we tried to update to that, but it But it broke the tests and then have to go spend time on that, then say, Oh, it broke the test. So let's not update. And then six months later, you do find out. Oh, geez. There was a problem in one that owed at three. And it was fixed in one. That about four. If only we had updated. Um, you know, you look at the, um you look at some of the highest profile security breaches that are out there that you sort of can trace toe third party libraries. It's almost always gonna be that it was out of date and hadn't been patched. That's so that's my you know, opinionated. Take on that. Sure. >>What are the parts of modern C I c D. As opposed to what one would encounter 56 years ago? Maybe if we can imagine that is being before the micro services and containers revolution really took off. >>You know, I think e think you're absolutely right that, you know, not the whole world is not doing. See, I Yeah, and certainly the whole world is not doing city yet. Um, you know, I think you know, as you say, we kind of live in a little bit of an ivory tower. You know, we live in an echo chamber in a little bit of a bubble Aziz vendors in this space. The truth is that I would say less than 50% of the software organizations out there do real. See, I do real CD. The number's probably less than that. Um, you know, I don't have anything to back that up other than just I talked to a lot of folks and work with, you know, with a lot of organizations and like, Yeah, that team does see I that team does Weekly builds You know, those sorts of things. It's it's really all over the place, Onda. Lot of times there's There's definitely, in my experience, a high correlation there with the amount of time that a team or a code base has been around, and the amount of sort of modern technologies and processes and and and so on that are that are brought to it on. And that sort of makes sense. I mean, if you if you're starting with the green field with a blank sheet of paper, you're gonna adopt, you know, the technologies and the processes and the cultures of today. A knot of 5, 10 15 15 years ago, Um but but most organizations air moving in that direction. Right? Andi, I think you know what? What? What? What's really changed in the last few years is the level of integration between the various tools between the various pieces and the amount of automation that you could bring to bear. I mean, I you know, I remember, you know, five or 10 years ago having all kinds of conversations with customers and prospects and and people of conferences and so on and they said, Oh, yeah, we'd like to automate our our software development life cycle, but, you know, we can't We have a manual thing here. We have a manual thing there. We do this kind of testing that we can automate it, and then we have this system, but it doesn't have any guy. So somebody has to sit and click on the screen. And, you know, and I used to say e used to say I don't accept No for an answer of can you automate this right? Everything. Anything can be automated. Even if you just get the little drinking bird. You know that just pokes the mouse. Everyone something. You can automate it, and I Actually, you know, I had one customer who was like, Okay, and we had a discussion and and and and they said, Well, we had this old Windows tool. We Its's an obscure tool. It's no longer updated, but it's it's it's used in a critical part of the life cycle and it can't be automated. And I said, Well, just install one of those Windows tools that allows you to peek and poke at the, you know, mass with my aunt I said so I don't accept your answer. And I said, Well, unfortunately, security won't allow us to install those tools, Eh? So I had to accept No, at that point, but But I think the big change were one of the biggest changes that's happened in the last few years is the systems now have all I'll have a p i s and they all talk to each other. So if you've gotta, you know, if you if you've got a scanning tool, if you've got a deployment tool, if you have a deployment, you know, infrastructure, you know, kubernetes based or, you know, kind of sitting in front of our around kubernetes thes things. I'll talk to each other and are all automated. So one of the things that's happened is we've taken out a lot of the weight states. A lot of the pauses, right? So if you you know, if you do something like a value stream mapping where you sit down and I'll date myself here and probably lose some of the audience with this analogy. But if you remember Schoolhouse Rock cartoons in in the late seventies, early eighties, there was one which was one of my favorites, and and the guy who did the music for this passed away last year, sadly, But, uh, the it was called How a bill Becomes a Law and they personified the bill. So the bill, you know, becomes a little person and, you know, first time passed by the house and then the Senate, and then the president either signs me or doesn't and or he vetoes, and it really sort of did this and what I always talk about with respect to sort of value stream mapping and talking about your processes, put a GoPro camera on your source codes head, and then follow that source code all the way through to your customer understand all of the stuff that happens to it, including nothing, right? Because a lot of times in that elapsed time, nothing keeps happening, right. If we build software the way we were sorry. If we build cars the way we build software, we would install the radio in a car, and then we would park it in a corner of the factory for three weeks. And then we might remember to test the radio before we ship the car out to the customer. Right, Because that's how a lot of us still develop some for. And I think one thing that's changed in the in the last few years is that we don't have these kind of, Well, we did the bill. So now we're waiting for somebody to create an environment and rack up some hardware and install an operating system and install. You know, this that and the other. You know, that that went from manual to we use Scheffer puppet to do it, which then went to we use containers to do it, which then went to we use containers and kubernetes to do it. So whole swaths of elapsed time in our software development life cycles basically went to nothing, right and went to the point where we can weaken, weaken, configure them way to the left and and and follow them all the way through. And that the artifact that we're delivering isn't necessarily and execute herbal. It could be a container, right? So now that starts to get interesting for us in terms of being able to test against that container scan against that container, def. Against that container, Um, you know, and it, you know, it does bring complexity to in terms of now you've got a layered file system in there. Well, what all is in there, you know, And so there's tools for scanning those kinds of things, But But I think that one of the biggest things that's happened is a lot of the natural pause. Points are no longer natural. Pause points their unnatural pause points, and they're now just delays in yourself for delivery. And so what? What a lot of organizations are working on is kind of getting to the point where those sorts of things get get automated and connected, and that's now possible. And it wasn't 55 or 10 years ago. >>So It sounds like a great deal of the speed benefit, which has been quantified many different ways. But is once you get one of these systems working, as we've all experienced enormous, um, is actually done by collapsing out what would have been unused time in a prior process or non paralyze herbal stuff has been made parallel. >>I remember doing a, uh, spent some time with a customer, and they did a value stream mapping, and they they found out at the end that of the 30 days of elapsed time they were spending three days on task. Everything else was waiting, waiting for a build waiting foran install, waiting for an environment, waiting for an approval, having meetings, you know, those sorts of things. And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, you know, 90% of the elapsed time is doing nothing. And I was talking to someone Gene Kim, actually, and I said, Oh my God, it was terrible that these you know, these people are screwed and he says, 0 90%. That's actually pretty good, you know? So So I think you know, if you if you think today, you know, if you If you if you look at the teams that are doing just really pure continuous delivery, you know, write some code committed, gets picked up by the sea ice system and passes through CIA goes through whatever coast, see I processing, you need to do security scanning and so on. It gets staged and it gets pushed into production. That stuff can happen in minutes, right? That's new. That's different. Now, if you do that without having the right automated gates in place around security and and and and those sorts of things you know, then you're living a little bit dangerously, although I would argue not necessarily any more dangerously, than just letting that insecure coat sit around for a week before your shipment, right? It's not like that problem is going to fix itself if you just let it sit there, Um, but But, you know, you definitely operated at a higher velocity. Now that's a lot of the benefit that you're tryingto trying to get out of it, right? You can get stuff out to the market faster, or if you take a little bit more time, you get more out to the market in, in in the same amount of time you could turn around and fix problems faster. Um, if you have a vulnerability, you can get it fixed and pushed out much more quickly. If you have a competitive threat that you need to address, you can you know, you could move that that much faster if you have a critical bug. You know, I mean, all security issues or bugs, sort of by definition. But, you know, if you have a functionality bug, you can you can get that pushed out faster. Eso So I think kind of all factors of the business benefit from from this increase in speed. And I think developers due to because anybody you know, any human that has a context switch and step away from something for for for, you know, duration of time longer than a few minutes, you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna have to load back up again. And so that's productivity loss. Now, that's a soft cost. But man, is it Is it expensive and is a painful So you see a lot of benefit there. Think >>if you have, you know, an organization that is just starting this journey What would you ask that organization to consider in orderto sort of move them down this path? >>It's by far the most frequent and almost always the first question I get at the end of the talk or or a presentation or something like that is where do we start? How do I know where to start? And and And there's a couple of answers to that. What one is Don't boil the ocean, right? Don't try to fix everything all at once. You know that because that's not agile, right? The be agile about your transformation Here, you know, pick, pick a set of problems that you have and and make a, you know, basically make a burn down list and and do them in order. So find find a pain point that you have right and, you know, just go address that and and try to make it small and actionable and especially early on when you're trying to affect change. And you're tryingto convinced teams that this is the way to go and you may have some naysayers, or you may have people who are skeptical or have been through these processes before that have been you know failures released, not the successes that they that they were supposed to be. You know, it's important to have some wind. So what I always say is look, you know, if you have a pebble in your shoe, you've got a pain point. You know how to address that. You know, you're not gonna address that by changing out your wardrobe or or by buying a new pair of shoes. You know, you're gonna address that by taking your shoe off, shaking it until the pebble falls out there putting the shoe back on. So look for those kinds of use cases, right? So if you're engineers are complaining that whenever I check in the build is broken and we're not doing see, I well, then let's look at doing C I Let's do see eye, right? If you're not doing that. And for most organizations, you know, setting up C I is a very manageable, very doable thing. There's lots of open source tooling out there. There's lots of commercial tooling out there. Thio do that to do it for small teams to do it for large teams and and everything in between. Um, if the problem is Gosh, Every time we push a change, we break something. You know where every time something works in staging it doesn't work in production. Then you gotta look at Well, how are these systems being configured? If you're If you're configuring them manually, stop automate the configuration of them. Um, you know, if you're if you're fixing system manually, don't you know, as a friend of mine says, don't fix, Repave? Um, you know, you don't wanna, you know, there's a story of, you know how how Google operates in their data centers. You know, they don't they don't go look for a broken disk drive and swap it out. You know, when it breaks, they just have a team of people that, like once a month or something, I don't know what the interval is. They just walked through the data center and they pull out all the dead stuff and they throw it out, and what they did was they assume that if the scale that they operate, things are always going to break physical things are always going to break. You have to build a software to assume that breakage and any system that assumes that we're going to step in when a disk drive is broken and fix it so that we can get back to running just isn't gonna work at scale. There's a similarity. There's sort of ah, parallel to that in in software, which is you know, any time you have these kinds of complex systems, you have to assume that they're gonna break and you have to put the things in place to catch those things. The automated testing, whether it's, you know, whether you have 10,000 tests that you that you've written already or whether you have no tests and you just need to go right, your first test that that journey, you've got to start somewhere. But my answer thio their questions generally always just start small, pick a very specific problem. Build a plan around it, you know, build a burned down list of things that you wanna address and just start working your way down that the same way that you would for any, you know, kind of agile project, your transformation of your own processes of your own internal systems. You should use agile processes for those as well, because if you if you go off for six months and and build something. By the time you come back, it's gonna be relevant. Probably thio the problems that you were facing six months ago. >>A Then let's consider the situation of, ah, company that's using C I and maybe sea ice and C d together. Um, and they want to reach what you might call the next level. Um, they've seen obvious benefits they're interested in, you know, in increasing their investment in, you know and cycles devoted to this technology. You don't have to sell them anymore, but they're looking for a next direction. What would you say that direction should be? I >>think oftentimes what organizations start to do is they start to look at feedback loops. So on DAT starts to go into the area of sort of metrics and analytics and those sorts of things. You know what we're we're always concerned about? You know, we're always affected by things like meantime to recovery. Meantime, the detection, what are our cycle times from, you know, ideation, toe codecommit. What's the cycle? Time from codecommit the production, those sorts of things. And you know you can't change what you don't measure eso so a lot of times the next step after kind of getting the rudimentary zoo of C I Orsini or some combination of both in places start to measure. Stop you, Um, and and then but But there. I think you know, you gotta be smart about it, because what you don't want to do is kind of just pull all the metrics out that exists. Barf them up on the dashboard. And the giant television screens say boom metrics, right. You know, Mike, drop go home. That's the wrong way to do it. You want to use metrics very specifically to achieve outcomes. So if you have an outcome that you want to achieve and you can tie it to a metric start looking at that metric and start working that problem once you saw that problem, you can take that metric. And you know, if that's the metric you're showing on the big you know, the big screen TV, you can pop that off and pick the next one and put it up there. I I always worry when you know a little different when you're in a knock or something like that. When when you're looking at the network stuff and so on. But I'm always leery of when I walk into to a software development organization. You know, just a Brazilian different metrics, this whole place because they're not all relevant. They're not all relevant at the same time. Some of them you wanna look at often, some of them you just want to kind of set an alarm on and make sure that, you know, I mean, you don't go down in your basement every day to check that the sump pump is working. What you do is you put a little water detector in there and you have an alarm go off if the water level ever rises above a certain amount. Well, you want to do the same thing with metrics, right? Once you've got in the water out of your basement, you don't have to go down there and look at it all the time. You put the little detector in, and then you move on and you worry about something else. And so organizations as they start to get a little bit more sophisticated and start to look at the analytics, the metrics, um, start to say, Hey, look, if our if our cycle time from from, you know, commit to deploy is this much. And we want it to be this much. What happens during that time, And where can we take slices out of that? You know, without without affecting the outcomes in terms of quality and so on, or or if it's, you know, from from ideation, toe codecommit. You know what? What can we do there? Um, you start to do that. And and then as you get those sort of virtuous cycles of feedback loops happening, you know, you get better and better and better, but you wanna be careful with metrics, you know, you don't wanna, you know, like I said, you don't wanna barf a bunch of metrics up just to say, Look, we got metrics. Metrics are there to serve a particular outcome. And once you've achieved that outcome, and you know that you can continue to achieve that outcome, you turn it into an alarm or a trigger, and you put it out of sight. And you know that. You know, you don't need to have, like, a code coverage metric prominently displayed you you pick a code coverage number that you're happy with you work to achieve that. Once you achieve it, you just worry about not going below that threshold again. So you can take that graph off and just put a trigger on this as if we ever get below this, you know, raising alarm or fail a build or fail a pipeline or something like that and then start to focus on improving another man. Uh, or another outcome using another matter >>makes enormous sense. So I'm afraid we are getting to be out of time. I want to thank you very much on this for joining us today. This has been certainly informative for me, and I hope for the audience, um, you know, thank you very, very much for sharing your insulin.