>>Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Cubes Presentation of Women in Tech Global Event Celebrating International Women's Day I'm John for a host of the Cube. We had a great guest in Cuba. Alumni Veranda re vice president. Commercial sales for Europe, Middle East and Africa. EMEA at AWS Amazon Web service to great to see you. Thank you for coming in all the way across the pond and the US to Palo Alto from London. >>Thank you, John. Great to see you again. I'm super excited to be part of this particularly special event. >>Well, this is a celebration of International Women's Day. It's gonna continue throughout the rest of the year, and every day is International Women's Day. But you're actually international. Your women in Tech had a great career. We talk that reinvent. Let's step back and walk through your career. Highlights to date. What have been some of the key things in your career history that you can share? >>Uh, thanks, John. It's always nice to reflect on this, you know? Look, I the way I would classify my career. First of all, it's very it's been very international. I was born and raised in India I went to study in the US It was always a dream to go do that. I did my masters in Boston University. I then worked in the U S. For a good 17 years across A number of tech, uh, tech companies in particular, started my career at McKinsey in the very early days and then moved on to work for E M. C. You'll you'll probably remember them, John. Very well, of course, There now, Del um And then I moved over to Europe. So I've spent the last 18 years here in Europe. Um, and that's been across a couple of different things. I I always classify. Half my career has been strategy, transformation, consulting, and the other half of my career is doing the real job of actually running operations. And I've been, you know, 12 15 years in the tech and telecom sector had the excitement of running Schneider Electric's business in the UK Denniston and Private Equity went back to McKinsey Boomerang, and then a W s called me, and how could I possibly refuse that? So it's been really exciting, I think the one big take away when I reflect on my career is. I've always had this Northstar about leading a business someday, and then I've sort of through my career master set of skills to be able to do that. And I think that's probably what you see. Very eclectic, very mobile, very international and cross industry. Uh, in particular. >>I love the strategy and operations comment because they're both fun, but they're different ones. Very execution, tactical operating. The business strategy is kind of figuring out the future of the 20 mile stare. You know, playing that chess match, so to speak, all great skills and impressive. But I have to ask you, what got you in the tech sector? Why technology? >>Well, so you know, in some ways I kind of fell into it, John, right? Because when I was growing up, my father was always in the tech space, so he had a business and fax machines and he was a reseller of cannon. If you remember Cannon, um, and microfilm equipment and I grew up around him, and he was a real entrepreneur. I mean, always super visionary about new things that were coming out. And so as I followed him around, I said, I kind of wanna be him. And it's a little bit about that sort of role model right early in your career. And then when I moved to the U. S. To study again, it wasn't like I thought I was gonna go to attack. I mean, I wasn't an engineer, you know. I grew up in India with economics degree. That's when women went into We didn't necessarily go into science. But when I joined McKinsey in the early days, I ended up working with, you know, the big companies of the days. You know, the IBMs, the E M. C. Is the Microsoft the oracles, etcetera. So I just then began to love, love the innovation, always being on the sort of bleeding edge. Um, and I guess it was a little bit just fascinating for me not being an engineer to learn how technology had all these applications in terms of how businesses advanced. So I guess, Yeah, that's kind of why I still think it around with it. It's interesting >>how you mentioned how you at that time you pipeline into economics, which is math. Of course. Uh, math is needed for economics, but also the big picture and This is one of the conversation we're having, Uh, this year, the breaking down the barriers for women in tech. Now there's more jobs you don't You don't need to have one pathway into into science or, you know, we're talking stem versus steam arts are super important, being creative. So the barriers to get in are being removed. I mean, if you think about the surface area for technology. So I got to ask you, what barriers do you think Stop girls and young women the most in considering a career in Tech? >>I've got to start with role models, John. Right? Because I think a number of us grew up, by the way, being the only not having the allies in the business, right? All of us, all the all the managers and hiring people are males rather than females. And the fact of the matter is, we didn't have this sort of he for she movement. And I think that's the biggest barrier is not having enough role models and positive role models in the business. I can tell you that research shows that actually, when you have female role models, you tend to hire more and actually what employees say is they feel more supportive when they have actually female managers. So I think there are lots of goodness, but we just need to accelerate how many role models we have. I think the other things I will say to you as well is, if you look at just the curriculum and the ability to get women into stem, right, I mean, we need to have colleges, universities, schools also encouraging women into stem. And you've probably heard about our programme. You know, it's something we do to encourage girls into stem. I think it's really important that teachers and others are actually encouraging girls to do math, for example, right? It's not just about science. Math is great. Logic is great, by the way. Philosophy is great. I just love what you said. I think increasingly, the EQ and EQ parts have to come together, and I think that's what women excel at. Um, so I think that's another very, very big carrier, and then the only other thing I will say is we're gonna watch the language we use, like when I think about job descriptions, they tend to be very male oriented languages we look at CVS now, if you haven't been a female in tech for a long time, your CV isn't going to show a lot of tech, is it? So for recruiters out there, look for competencies. Look for capabilities. You mentioned strategy and arts earlier. We have this leadership principles, As you know, John, really well, think big and dive deep, right? That strategy and operations. And so I think we we need to recruit for that. And we need to recruit for culture. And we need to recruit for people with ambition, an aspiration and not always Just look at 20 years of experience because you're not gonna find it. So I think those are some of the big barriers. Um, that I that I at least think, is stopping women from getting into town. But the biggest one is not enough women at the top hiring women. >>I think people want to see themselves, or at least an aspirational version of what they could be. And I think that's only gonna get better. Lots changed. A lot has happened over the years, but now, with technology in everyone's life, covid pulled forward a lot of realities. You know, the current situation in Europe where you're you are now has pulled forward a lot of realities around community, cyber, digital, our lives. And I think this opens up new positions, clearly cybersecurity. And I'm sure the job boards in every company is hiring people that didn't exist years ago, but also this new problems to solve. So the younger generation coming up, um, is gonna work on these problems, and they need to have role models. So what's your reaction to that? You know, new problems are opportunities their new so usually solved by probably the next generation. Uh, they need mentors. All this kind of works together. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, and, you know, let me pick up on something we're doing that I think is really important. I think you have to address age on the pipeline problem, you know, because they're just is a pipeline problem, you know, at the end of the day, And by that, what I mean is, we need to have more and more people with the and I'm not gonna use the word engineering or science. I'm going to use the word digital skills, right? And I think what we've we've committed to doing, John, you know, I'm very proud of this is we said we're gonna train 29 people 29 million people around this world on digital skills for free by 2025. Right, That's gonna help us get that pipeline going. The other thing we do is something called Restart where we actually do 12 weeks of training for the under, employed and under served right and underrepresented communities. And that means in 12 weeks we can get someone. And you know, this case I talk to you about this before I love it. Fast food operator to cloud, right? I mean, that's that's what I call changing the game on pipeline. But But here's the other stand. Even if the pipeline is good and we often see that the pipeline can be as much as 50% at the very early career women, by the time you get into the C suite, you're not a 50 anymore. You're less than 20%. So the other big thing John there, and this comes back to the types of roles you have an opportunities you create. We've got to pull women through the pipeline. We've really got to encourage that there are sponsors and not just mentors. I think women are sorry to say this over mentored and under sponsored. We need more people say I'm gonna open the door for you and create the opportunity I had that advantage. I hit people through my career. By the way, they were all men, right? Who actually stood out there and bang on the door and said, Okay, Tunisia is gonna go do this. And my first break I remember was having done strategy all my life when the CEO come into the room and you said, You're gonna better locks and you're gonna go run the P and L in Benelux and I almost fainted because I thought, Oh, my God, I've never run a PNR before But it's that type of risk taking that's going to be critical. And I think we've got to train our leaders and our managers to have those conversations be the sponsors, get that unconscious bias training. We all have it. Every single one of us has it. I think those are the combinations of things that are going to actually help open the door and make a see that Actually, it's not just about coding. It's actually about sales. It's about marketing. It's about product management. It's about strategy. It's about sales operations. It's about really, really thinking differently about your customers, right? And that's the thing that I think is attractive about technology. And you know what? Maybe that leads you to eventually become a coder. Or maybe not. Maybe you enter from coding, but those are all the range is available to you in technology, which is not good at advertising, >>that there's more applications than ever before. But I love your comment about over mentoring and under sponsored. Can you quickly just define the difference between those two support elements sponsoring versus, uh, mentoring sponsoring >>So mentors And by the way they can range from my son is my mentor, you know, is a great reverse mentor. By the way, I really encourage you to have the reverse mentoring going. So many mentors are people from all walks of your life, right? And you should have, you know, half a dozen of those. At least I think right who are going to be able to help you deal with situations, help coach you give you feedback respond to concerns You're having find ways for you to navigate all the stuff you need, by the way. Right? And feedback the gift we need that sponsors. It's not about the feedback. Necessarily. It's people who literally will create opportunities for you. Mentors don't necessarily do that. Sponsors will say you You know what? We got the phone. Call John and say, John, I've got the perfect person for you. You need to go speak to her. That's the big difference. John and a couple of sponsors. It's not about many, >>and that's where the change happens. I love that comment. Good call. I'm glad I could double down on that. Now that you have the environment, pipeline and working, you have the people themselves in the environment getting better sponsors and mentors, hopefully working more and more together. But once they're in the environment, they still got to be part of it. So as girls and young women and to the working sector for tech, what advice would you give them? Because now they're in the game there in the arena. So what advice would you give them? Because the environments they are now >>yeah, yeah. I mean, Gosh, John, it's you know, you've lived your career in this space. It's an exciting place to be right. Um, it's a growth opportunity. And I think that's a really important point because the more you enter sectors where there's a lot of growth and I would say hyper right growth, that's just gonna open the doors to so many more things. If you're in a place where it's all about cost cutting and restructuring, do you know what? It's super hard to really compete and have fun, right? And as we say, make history. So it's an exciting place. Today's world transformation equals digital transformation, right? So tech is the place to be, because tech is about transformation, Right? So coming in here, the one advice I would give you is Just do it because believe me, there's so much you can do, like take the risk, find someone is going to give you that entree point and get in the door right? And look, you know what's the worst that could happen? The worst that could happen is you don't like it. Fine. There's lots of other things than to go to. So my advice is, you know, don't take the mm. The really bad tips I've received in my career, right? Don't let people tell you you can't do it. You're not good enough. You don't have the experience, right? It's a male's world. You're a woman. It's all about you and not about EQ. Because that's just rubbish, Frankly, right. The top tip I was ever given was actually to take the risk and go for it. And that was my father. And then all these other sponsors I've had around the way. So that's that's the one thing I would say. The other thing I will say to you is the reason I advise it and the reason you should go for it. It's purposeful. Technology is changing our lives, you know, And we will all live to be no longer. 87 I think 100 right? And so you have the opportunity to change the course of the world by coming to technology. The vaccine deployment John was a great example, right? Without cloud, we couldn't have launch these vaccines as fast as we did. Right? Um, so I think there's a tonne of purpose. You've got to get in and then you've got to find. As I said, those sponsors, you've got to find those mentors. You've got to not worry about vertical opportunities and getting promoted. You gotta worry about horizontal opportunities, right? And doing the things that I needed to get the skills that you require, right? I also say one thing. Um, don't Don't let people tell you not to speak up, not to express your opinion. Do all of the above be authentic, Be authentic style. You will see more role models. Many, many more role models are gonna come out in tech that are going to be female role models. And actually, the men are really stepping up to the role models. And so we will be better together. And here's the big thing. We need you. We can do this without women. There's no possible way that we will be able to deliver on the absolute incredible transformation we have ahead of us without you. >>Inclusion, Diversity equity. These are force multipliers for companies. If applied properly, it's competitive advantage. And so breaking the bias. The theme this year is super super important. It sounds like common sense, but the reality is you break the bias It's not just women as men, as all of us. What can we do? Better to bring that force multiplier capabilities and competitive advantage of inclusion, diversity, equity to business. >>So the first thing I would say and my doctor used to always tell me this if it hurts, don't do it right. I would say to you just do it. Get diverse teams in place because if you have diverse teams, you have diversity of thought. You don't have to worry as much about bias because, you know, you've got the people around the table who actually represent the world. We also do something really cool. We have something called biassed busters. And so in meetings we have bias borders. People are going to, like, raise their hand and say, I'm not sure that that was really meant the way it was supposed to be, So I think that's just a nice little mechanism that we have here, Um, in a W s that helps. The other thing I would say to you is being your authentic self. You can't be a man and mentioned be women, and you're not gonna replicate somebody else because you're never gonna succeed if you do that, you know? So I would say be your authentic self all of the time, You know, we know. We know that women are sometimes labelled as aggressive when they're really not. Don't worry about it. It's not personal. I think the main thing you have to do is and I advise women all the time Is calibrate the feedback you're getting okay? Don't catastrophizing it right. Calibrate it. Taken in, you don't have to react to every feedback in the world, right? And make sure that you're also conscious of your own biases, right? So I think those are my Those are my two cents John for what they were for breaking device. I love the thing. >>Be yourself, You know, Don't take it too personal. Have some fun. That's life. That's a life lesson. Um, Final question, while I got you here, you're a great inspiration, and you're a great role model. You're running a very big business for Amazon web services. Europe, Middle East and Africa is a huge territory. It's its own thing. It's It's like you're bigger than some companies out there. Your role in your organisation. What's the hot area out there you were talking before camera. That's emerging areas that you're focused on. People are watching this young women, young ladies around the world. We're gonna look at this and say, What wave should I jump on? What's the hot things happening in in Europe? Middle Eastern Africa? >>I think the three things I would mention and I'm sure there's I'm sure, John, as we've spoken to my peers across the other gos, right, there are some similarities. The very, very hot thing right now is sustainability. Um, and you know, people are really building sustainability into their strategy. It's no longer sort of just an E S G goal in itself. It's actually very much part of changing the way they do business. So I think that's the hard part. And that's why again, I think it's a phenomenal place to be. I think the other big thing that we're absolutely talking about a lot is, and you know, this is getting even more complicated right now is just around security and cyber security and where that's going and how can we be really thinking about how we address some of these concerns that are coming out and I think there's There's something. There's a lot to be said about the way we build our infrastructure in terms of that context. So I think that's the second one. I think the third one is. People are really looking at technology to change the way businesses operate. So how does HR operate? How do you improve your employee value proposition? How do you do marketing in the next generation? How do you do finance in the next generation? So across the business is no longer the place of I t. It really is about changing the way we are as businesses and all of us becoming tech companies at the core. So the big thing there, John, is data data at the heart of everything we do data not because it's there in front of you, but data because you can actually make decisions on the back of it. So those are the things, Um, I seem to come across a lot more than anything else. >>It's always great to talk to you, your senior leader at AWS, um, inspirational to many. And thank you for taking the time to speak with us here on this great event. Women in text. Global Celebration of International Women's Day. Thank you so much for your time. >>Thank you, John. Always great to talk to you. >>We will definitely be keeping in touch More storeys to be had and we're gonna bring it to you. This is the cubes continuing presentation of women in tech. A global event celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Dell Technologies. World Digital Experience Brought to you by Dell Technologies. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of Dell Technology World del Tech, World 2020. Jeff Clark is here. He is the chief operating officer and vice chairman of Dell Technologies. Jeff, awesome to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me today. Appreciate it. >>Yeah, you're very welcome. When my first question is, when do you have time to be vice chairman? Well, >>you know, in today's world, it's pretty hectic. We're all working around the clock. If there's anything about the new norm, there are no boundaries. And unless you establish some boundaries so I've been able to find a rhythm that works for me personally, but also allows me to look after the company and, uh, kind of keep things moving and making progress of Dell. So pretty exciting times. It's certainly been a challenge finding new ways to break through new ways to get things done. But our team has done a great job rising to the occasion. >>Well, you know, a Z. You know, I didn't know you that well prior to you taking over the whole enchilada and do it going back into the enterprise. I mean, I knew you were obviously, but you have been able to see you know, how you operate in the decision making on how you rally the troops. Your several years now into the new Dell, you had to do a lot of tactical things, you know, including product portfolio rationalizations. But I wanted to start with the macro picture in a particular Can you share some of the acceleration points and the levers that you're really pulling in the operation? >>Well, clearly, if you look back at the company's strategy and I'll start there and then kind of build on from that platform if you think about the first tenet of our strategy is to win in the consolidation in our court marketplaces. So the core commercial PC market, the course server market in the course storage market, and clearly what we've been able to do and certainly been at this now for Gosh, I think it's three years now that we've been turning over the portfolio and modernizing the portfolio on the I s g side and to the point you referenced earlier. We've now modernized that portfolio. It is now under all the power brand and now represents new, fresh modern architecture er modern products that allows us to be competitive going forward across the entire eyes. T portfolio. We've had continued success on the commercial PC side. Then if you think about the next tenant of our strategy, which is to really build deeply integrated solutions across the Dell Technologies portfolio, we've made a lot of progress in the last handful of years, particularly integrating this new competitiveness of our I S G portfolio with the M R. And we're now beginning to see the fruits of that labor PC side will quickly. You've seen that with unified workspace work workspace one are leading services and are leading PC products to be able to bring a different change experience for end users on the PC side on the side. This all started with getting again this competitive portfolio. It started with Dell Technology Cloud a little over a year ago. It now is in joint collaboration around the edge. You've heard from my comments during the keynote around five g going forward. So as we think about this new modern world playing out. We now have the infrastructure competitive. We have a great asset and capability with VM, are now have figured out how to tightly integrate those and innovate on top of those platforms. And we think that's sort of the success for the future as we move forward. >>So it sounds like I mean, covitz change so many things, but it doesn't sound like it's materially changed your thinking on these leverage points or your strategy is gonna pre cove in Post Cove. It you kind of sort of approaching the same playbook, if you will. >>Well, a covert in many levels. While it's had a huge impact on many lives around the world, which we shouldn't, that should not be lost on any of us and the impact that it's had across many businesses and many parts of the world. If you step back and what I try to mention the keynote, what cove it has done is really accelerate digital transformation. I've heard many characterizations, but the way I tend to look at it is if you think of what's happened around us and the forcing of working remote learning remote the world as we look at it going forward, data driven. It's accelerated 10 years of what I thought would take us to get done into the first half of this decade. In many cases the first three years, Uh, this nomenclature that I've talk about is the future is now, and what it's really done is actually reinforced. The points that we thought were going toe happen brought them sooner and has made us believe mawr double down, if you will, that the path we're on is the right path, and we see our customers migrating that way rapidly. In fact, what's interesting? If you look at customers who embrace digital transformation earlier, we call them digital leaders. They're actually breaking away from the pack, sort of speak from their peer set and driving differentiated performance in their sector. We think that's a great, obviously proof point of digital transformation. But what all companies will have to go through to compete >>Well, it's interesting we saw early on in the US locked down worldwide, locked down you have you have such a broad portfolio that yeah, maybe some parts of the portfolio or, you know, directly negatively affected. Certainly. For instance, your you know your airline customers or your hospitality customers, etcetera. But the work from home was was a tailwind for you guys. So the fact that you have that broad portfolio somewhat, you know, one part of the business that cushioned you, maybe the other part of the business, You felt that. But on balance, you're able to get through that, and part of that was your supply chain. And some of your competitors struggled, you know, for instance, with laptop supplies. But you guys really have done a good job, sort of navigating through that, almost like you've been through it before. But nobody's been through this before. >>No, you know, David, thanks for recognizing it. One of the benefits of the Indian portfolio we have, which no one else has. The Indian portfolio that we do. We're able to weather the storm of different impacts to whether it's sectors, whether it's different parts of the business. And we've been able to do that on our our supply chain has performed well. It's been unbelievably resilient. We think it's appointed differentiation over us against anyone else in the marketplace. You couple that with our global service footprint, the two of them working together we designated those capabilities is essential. Very early in the pandemic, we protected our team members and we were able to serve our customers and a pretty non disruptive way. Now, behind the scenes are teams were doing all sorts of things to bring, uh, that continuity supply and those expectations we sent to our customers to the forefront. But I couldn't be more pleased at how we responded, and it set us up to where things were going to go. When we think about the future and migrating tomb or integrated solutions, I suspect we may talk about as a service and the capabilities needed with that services in the supply chain play a key role. >>I guess so much to talk to you about. What? I wanna come back to digital transformation For a minute. I was talking to the C i o the other day and I asked him what was the digital transformation mean to you? He said, David, I got a 15 year old s a P system. Digital transformation means to me I My business has changed in the last 15 years, but my s a P system Hasn't I gotta bring it up to speed. I have to modernize. So there's a spectrum. On the other hand, if if you're not digital today and you're, say, a restaurant, you can't do business. So what does that spectrum look like of digital transformation to you and your customers? >>Well, I think your examples were very good. I mean, our industries as a long reputation of overhyping, different constructs. The fact is, the world is rapidly digitizing. It's undeniable. If you look at the cost of a sensor and how those sensors air now being placed in everything, all of the data that's being collected as a result, That's certainly the forefront of what's happening. And every business has to deal with that. You mean you can't We talked about hospitality. You got hotel rooms that have sensors in them for lights, for water, for a temperature. You think about what's happening in the finance sector in the amount of data that's being created on the edge of that has to be processed on the edge. You think about smart factory smart hospitals in the amount of technology that's going in to bring those new areas to the forefront. So in my mind. Digital transformation is catching up with where the world's going. We know the world is going from an analog world to a digital world, and as that acceleration, mhm goes faster and faster and faster, which I absolutely we absolutely believe this happening. Companies have to change the business. They have to change their models. They have to figure out how to take all of this data and turn data into information to drive better business outcomes. We tend to get into this digital transformation and everyone to talk about this piece of gear, this piece of gear, this piece of gear. I actually don't spend any time on that. It's where customers are going. What are they doing to really instrument, if you will, the digital world they're going to participate in and have to figure out how to overcome the obstacles and barriers with that to compete in their particular sectors. That's where we come in. We help them help them with certainly the gear part of it, but more importantly, the solution orientation to bring better business outcomes to them, to help them get to where they want to go. Does that help? >>Yes, and it does, and it sort of leads me to the hybrid cloud multi cloud. To me, it's edges all part of that and it's critical for your customers. Digital transformations. I mean, what I mean by that is creating a trusted operating environment across whatever platform you're on, whether you're on Prem when you're in a public cloud, whether you're at the edge, so multi cloud is part of that. You know, I used to think a lot of this stuff was aspirational. It seems to becoming more and more really. Where do you see your customers in that maturity cycle? >>Well, I love the way you described it. What we see is the notion of Cloud is much broader than perhaps we would have talked about earlier on when I got this job was the public cloud. No, there's Public Cloud. There's private clouds, and clearly the edge is going to be a cloud operating a model. In fact, we see the world of five G edge and cloud, those three circles intersecting toe high degree. So we're gonna bring a cloud operating model to the edge. We're gonna bring new advanced connectivity data driven connective ity to this edge where all of this instrumentation and all of this data is going to be created that will have toe have real time analytics done, uh, at the edge we think, is this opportunity to really step back and go well. Those cloud things can't be separate. They have to be a set of systems. In fact, it has to become an integrated system. And we think that integrated system has to be able to move data, be able to consistently manage, consistently orchestrate and consistently Dr Operations across those three cloud environments, I think we have gone. Probably the best characterization is early innings. We're certainly not in the first inning. We're not in the ninth inning, but we're certainly into the ballgame here of helping customers orchestrate a multi cloud hybrid cloud environment. If you think about what we've done with VM wars enablement or interaction with the public domains, the work that we've done from our private area, we have accomplished a lot in a short period of time, I'd also tell you there's a fair amount of work in front of us as this spends very quickly and the edge of balls we have to connect those worlds and not leave the edge out on an island by itself. We have to bring it together. We're bringing into the public and private cloud domains that we have today, >>and I definitely wanna hit on as a service. But since we're on this topic, I wanna I wanna talk about five G and Telco a little bit. Let me just spiel for a bit and then you can respond. So I mean, this seems to be a lot of confusion around five G. There's very high expectations. There's there's a there's a lot of talk, but if it's hard toe sort of identify the true impact, that's that's tangible today, anyway. And then you got the telecom telco transformation going on. We've been We've been hearing this for a long, long time. Meanwhile, you got the over over the top providers. They're living off the infrastructure. The telcos price per bit is declining, but the usage is exploding. And so what do you make of all this? You know, the telcos air reinventing themselves. Five g is a part of that consumers Airway waiting for that. There's a lot of, you know, mixed marketing messages going on. What's your take on this and what's tells role? >>Well, look, I I tend to try to break it down into things. At least I can understand. If I look at five G is the next generation Cellular, which I believe it's far more than that. I mean, I think it's the next data fabric for the data era. I think it's going to be this intersection, as I mentioned moments ago of five g Cloud and Edge, all coming together. But I think about it from the infrastructure side that you describe. What we have is the first opportunity to bring a cloud environment to the telco space that hasn't happened before. And I think a cloud environment needs to be implemented because I think there are cost pressures in that sector, and this is going to be a way to become more competitive and to bring out new technologies and services much faster. So now if you bring a cloud operating model to this which I believe five g enables, there is now the opportunity to bring, I think, um, or standard based infrastructure rather than the proprietary ones. In the past, we now can bring a industry standard set of architectures was softer to find layers in the stack. And for the first time in the telcos space, you have the ran going through significant transformation. And on my mind, Iran is one of the significant control points in the telco or five g stack, and that is going to be more open. And then we have to think of five. G is just more than a cellular network. I mean, we're gonna have private private five G. So to the degree that it displaces why, if I will be interesting to see and unfold. But there's a huge opportunity now. Is those sensors that I talked about in the digitization of hospitals and factories and cities, all interconnected by a bunch of private five G networks, all working in an interactive combined system way. I think it just lends itself to a solutions orientation, a standardization orientation, a cloud model, and that's sort of what we do. So I get excited. All of what I just said or alluded to is not solved to your point. You've been hearing this discussion for some time, but the opportunity is large for us. It's one of the single biggest largest opportune, single biggest opportunity that we see for Delon View more and we're going to pursue it together. And we think we can take our at scale technologies that we brought to the Enterprise Data Center and bring those to the telco providers in the private five g build out. >>It's amazing, Jeff, when you think about the when you and I started in this business and how far we've come, it's It's just just mind boggling, isn't it? It >>really is. We've been at this a while and things have changed. But again, it's been on this consistent technology curve, this consistent standardization curve, and it's now applying to new sectors >>I want to end with as a service. You mentioned that before and and so you've got actually really growing business in subscriptions? Uh, you got a lot of options for customers, which is good, but sometimes it's confusing. What's the strategy around as a service? What can we expect there? >>Well, one of the things that we've done and you're right, we've made a lot of progress. We launched L Technology on demand last year. We have 2000 plus customers of $1.3 billion revenue run rate, it's growing at 30% so we're pleased. But at the same time, all the data suggest customers we're gonna want to deploy even at a greater rate. So I think I made reference during our keynote. Today, about 75% of the world's data is gonna be created outside of the data center, 75% off the edge. Build out is going to be done as a service, as is half of the infrastructure. So we think we need to take this to the proverbial next level. We announced Project Apex, Project Apex for us to take all of the properties that we have across the company, all of the different activities and to unify them a single effort for as a service model for the Dell company going forward for our entire portfolio. We think the timing is right. We think we have to be able to, if you will project APEC should be translated as the easy button for our customers. It's a way to make things simpler. It's a way to give them the choice they need to drive consistency in the operating model, and that's the path Ron, we're pretty excited about this unification, if you will. Galvanizing across the entire organization with Project Apex. >>Awesome. Listen, I know you're super busy. Appreciate all the time you've given us your You're a fun executive toe. Hang around with a mission, man. I wish we were together, but hopefully, hopefully sometime soon we can We could see each other face to face. >>I would like that very much. I missed the interactions themselves. I appreciate the time today. Thank you, Dave. >>All right, We'll see you, Jeff. Thanks again. All right. Thank you for watching everybody. Keep it right there. We're back with our next guest. It del Technology World 2020. You're watching the Cube.

>>from around the globe. It's the Q with digital coverage of exa scale day made possible by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Welcome, everyone to the Cube celebration of Exa Scale Day. Shaheen Khan is here. He's the founding partner, an analyst at Orion X And, among other things, he is the co host of Radio free HPC Shaheen. Welcome. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for being here, Dave. Great to be here. How are you >>doing? Well, thanks. Crazy with doing these things, Cove in remote interviews. I wish we were face to face at us at a supercomputer show, but, hey, this thing is working. We can still have great conversations. And And I love talking to analysts like you because you bring an independent perspective. You're very wide observation space. So So let me, Like many analysts, you probably have sort of a mental model or a market model that you look at. So maybe talk about your your work, how you look at the market, and we could get into some of the mega trends that you see >>very well. Very well. Let me just quickly set the scene. We fundamentally track the megatrends of the Information Age And, of course, because we're in the information age, digital transformation falls out of that. And the megatrends that drive that in our mind is Ayotte, because that's the fountain of data five G. Because that's how it's gonna get communicated ai and HBC because that's how we're gonna make sense of it Blockchain and Cryptocurrencies because that's how it's gonna get transacted on. That's how value is going to get transferred from the place took place and then finally, quantum computing, because that exemplifies how things are gonna get accelerated. >>So let me ask you So I spent a lot of time, but I D. C and I had the pleasure of of the High Performance computing group reported into me. I wasn't an HPC analyst, but over time you listen to those guys, you learning. And as I recall, it was HPC was everywhere, and it sounds like we're still seeing that trend where, whether it was, you know, the Internet itself were certainly big data, you know, coming into play. Uh, you know, defense, obviously. But is your background mawr HPC or so that these other technologies that you're talking about it sounds like it's your high performance computing expert market watcher. And then you see it permeating into all these trends. Is that a fair statement? >>That's a fair statement. I did grow up in HPC. My first job out of school was working for an IBM fellow doing payroll processing in the old days on and and And it went from there, I worked for Cray Research. I worked for floating point systems, so I grew up in HPC. But then, over time, uh, we had experiences outside of HPC. So for a number of years, I had to go do commercial enterprise computing and learn about transaction processing and business intelligence and, you know, data warehousing and things like that, and then e commerce and then Web technology. So over time it's sort of expanded. But HPC is a like a bug. You get it and you can't get rid of because it's just so inspiring. So supercomputing has always been my home, so to say >>well and so the reason I ask is I wanted to touch on a little history of the industry is there was kind of a renaissance in many, many years ago, and you had all these startups you had Kendall Square Research Danny Hillis thinking machines. You had convex trying to make many supercomputers. And it was just this This is, you know, tons of money flowing in and and then, you know, things kind of consolidate a little bit and, uh, things got very, very specialized. And then with the big data craze, you know, we've seen HPC really at the heart of all that. So what's your take on on the ebb and flow of the HPC business and how it's evolved? >>Well, HBC was always trying to make sense of the world, was trying to make sense of nature. And of course, as much as we do know about nature, there's a lot we don't know about nature and problems in nature are you can classify those problems into basically linear and nonlinear problems. The linear ones are easy. They've already been solved. The nonlinear wants. Some of them are easy. Many of them are hard, the nonlinear, hard, chaotic. All of those problems are the ones that you really need to solve. The closer you get. So HBC was basically marching along trying to solve these things. It had a whole process, you know, with the scientific method going way back to Galileo, the experimentation that was part of it. And then between theory, you got to look at the experiment and the data. You kind of theorize things. And then you experimented to prove the theories and then simulation and using the computers to validate some things eventually became a third pillar of off science. On you had theory, experiment and simulation. So all of that was going on until the rest of the world, thanks to digitization, started needing some of those same techniques. Why? Because you've got too much data. Simply, there's too much data to ship to the cloud. There's too much data to, uh, make sense of without math and science. So now enterprise computing problems are starting to look like scientific problems. Enterprise data centers are starting to look like national lab data centers, and there is that sort of a convergence that has been taking place gradually, really over the past 34 decades. And it's starting to look really, really now >>interesting, I want I want to ask you about. I was like to talk to analysts about, you know, competition. The competitive landscape is the competition in HPC. Is it between vendors or countries? >>Well, this is a very interesting thing you're saying, because our other thesis is that we are moving a little bit beyond geopolitics to techno politics. And there are now, uh, imperatives at the political level that are driving some of these decisions. Obviously, five G is very visible as as as a piece of technology that is now in the middle of political discussions. Covert 19 as you mentioned itself, is a challenge that is a global challenge that needs to be solved at that level. Ai, who has access to how much data and what sort of algorithms. And it turns out as we all know that for a I, you need a lot more data than you thought. You do so suddenly. Data superiority is more important perhaps than even. It can lead to information superiority. So, yeah, that's really all happening. But the actors, of course, continue to be the vendors that are the embodiment of the algorithms and the data and the systems and infrastructure that feed the applications. So to say >>so let's get into some of these mega trends, and maybe I'll ask you some Colombo questions and weaken geek out a little bit. Let's start with a you know, again, it was one of this when I started the industry. It's all it was a i expert systems. It was all the rage. And then we should have had this long ai winter, even though, you know, the technology never went away. But But there were at least two things that happened. You had all this data on then the cost of computing. You know, declines came down so so rapidly over the years. So now a eyes back, we're seeing all kinds of applications getting infused into virtually every part of our lives. People trying to advertise to us, etcetera. Eso So talk about the intersection of AI and HPC. What are you seeing there? >>Yeah, definitely. Like you said, I has a long history. I mean, you know, it came out of MIT Media Lab and the AI Lab that they had back then and it was really, as you mentioned, all focused on expert systems. It was about logical processing. It was a lot of if then else. And then it morphed into search. How do I search for the right answer, you know, needle in the haystack. But then, at some point, it became computational. Neural nets are not a new idea. I remember you know, we had we had a We had a researcher in our lab who was doing neural networks, you know, years ago. And he was just saying how he was running out of computational power and we couldn't. We were wondering, you know what? What's taking all this difficult, You know, time. And it turns out that it is computational. So when deep neural nets showed up about a decade ago, arm or it finally started working and it was a confluence of a few things. Thalib rhythms were there, the data sets were there, and the technology was there in the form of GPS and accelerators that finally made distractible. So you really could say, as in I do say that a I was kind of languishing for decades before HPC Technologies reignited it. And when you look at deep learning, which is really the only part of a I that has been prominent and has made all this stuff work, it's all HPC. It's all matrix algebra. It's all signal processing algorithms. are computational. The infrastructure is similar to H B. C. The skill set that you need is the skill set of HPC. I see a lot of interest in HBC talent right now in part motivated by a I >>mhm awesome. Thank you on. Then I wanna talk about Blockchain and I can't talk about Blockchain without talking about crypto you've written. You've written about that? I think, you know, obviously supercomputers play a role. I think you had written that 50 of the top crypto supercomputers actually reside in in China A lot of times the vendor community doesn't like to talk about crypto because you know that you know the fraud and everything else. But it's one of the more interesting use cases is actually the primary use case for Blockchain even though Blockchain has so much other potential. But what do you see in Blockchain? The potential of that technology And maybe we can work in a little crypto talk as well. >>Yeah, I think 11 simple way to think of Blockchain is in terms off so called permission and permission less the permission block chains or when everybody kind of knows everybody and you don't really get to participate without people knowing who you are and as a result, have some basis to trust your behavior and your transactions. So things are a lot calmer. It's a lot easier. You don't really need all the supercomputing activity. Whereas for AI the assertion was that intelligence is computer herbal. And with some of these exa scale technologies, we're trying to, you know, we're getting to that point for permission. Less Blockchain. The assertion is that trust is computer ble and, it turns out for trust to be computer ble. It's really computational intensive because you want to provide an incentive based such that good actors are rewarded and back actors. Bad actors are punished, and it is worth their while to actually put all their effort towards good behavior. And that's really what you see, embodied in like a Bitcoin system where the chain has been safe over the many years. It's been no attacks, no breeches. Now people have lost money because they forgot the password or some other. You know, custody of the accounts have not been trustable, but the chain itself has managed to produce that, So that's an example of computational intensity yielding trust. So that suddenly becomes really interesting intelligence trust. What else is computer ble that we could do if we if we had enough power? >>Well, that's really interesting the way you described it, essentially the the confluence of crypto graphics software engineering and, uh, game theory, Really? Where the bad actors air Incentive Thio mined Bitcoin versus rip people off because it's because because there are lives better eso eso so that so So Okay, so make it make the connection. I mean, you sort of did. But But I want to better understand the connection between, you know, supercomputing and HPC and Blockchain. We know we get a crypto for sure, like in mind a Bitcoin which gets harder and harder and harder. Um and you mentioned there's other things that we can potentially compute on trust. Like what? What else? What do you thinking there? >>Well, I think that, you know, the next big thing that we are really seeing is in communication. And it turns out, as I was saying earlier, that these highly computational intensive algorithms and models show up in all sorts of places like, you know, in five g communication, there's something called the memo multi and multi out and to optimally manage that traffic such that you know exactly what beam it's going to and worth Antenna is coming from that turns out to be a non trivial, you know, partial differential equation. So next thing you know, you've got HPC in there as and he didn't expect it because there's so much data to be sent, you really have to do some data reduction and data processing almost at the point of inception, if not at the point of aggregation. So that has led to edge computing and edge data centers. And that, too, is now. People want some level of computational capability at that place like you're building a microcontroller, which traditionally would just be a, you know, small, low power, low cost thing. And people want victor instructions. There. People want matrix algebra there because it makes sense to process the data before you have to ship it. So HPCs cropping up really everywhere. And then finally, when you're trying to accelerate things that obviously GP use have been a great example of that mixed signal technologies air coming to do analog and digital at the same time, quantum technologies coming so you could do the you know, the usual analysts to buy to where you have analog, digital, classical quantum and then see which, you know, with what lies where all of that is coming. And all of that is essentially resting on HBC. >>That's interesting. I didn't realize that HBC had that position in five G with multi and multi out. That's great example and then I o t. I want to ask you about that because there's a lot of discussion about real time influencing AI influencing at the edge on you're seeing sort of new computing architectures, potentially emerging, uh, video. The acquisition of arm Perhaps, you know, amore efficient way, maybe a lower cost way of doing specialized computing at the edge it, But it sounds like you're envisioning, actually, supercomputing at the edge. Of course, we've talked to Dr Mark Fernandez about space born computers. That's like the ultimate edge you got. You have supercomputers hanging on the ceiling of the International space station, but But how far away are we from this sort of edge? Maybe not. Space is an extreme example, but you think factories and windmills and all kinds of edge examples where supercomputing is is playing a local role. >>Well, I think initially you're going to see it on base stations, Antenna towers, where you're aggregating data from a large number of endpoints and sensors that are gathering the data, maybe do some level of local processing and then ship it to the local antenna because it's no more than 100 m away sort of a thing. But there is enough there that that thing can now do the processing and do some level of learning and decide what data to ship back to the cloud and what data to get rid of and what data to just hold. Or now those edge data centers sitting on top of an antenna. They could have a half a dozen GPS in them. They're pretty powerful things. They could have, you know, one they could have to, but but it could be depending on what you do. A good a good case study. There is like surveillance cameras. You don't really need to ship every image back to the cloud. And if you ever need it, the guy who needs it is gonna be on the scene, not back at the cloud. So there is really no sense in sending it, Not certainly not every frame. So maybe you can do some processing and send an image every five seconds or every 10 seconds, and that way you can have a record of it. But you've reduced your bandwidth by orders of magnitude. So things like that are happening. And toe make sense of all of that is to recognize when things changed. Did somebody come into the scene or is it just you know that you know, they became night, So that's sort of a decision. Cannot be automated and fundamentally what is making it happen? It may not be supercomputing exa scale class, but it's definitely HPCs, definitely numerically oriented technologies. >>Shane, what do you see happening in chip architectures? Because, you see, you know the classical intel they're trying to put as much function on the real estate as possible. We've seen the emergence of alternative processors, particularly, uh, GP use. But even if f b g A s, I mentioned the arm acquisition, so you're seeing these alternative processors really gain momentum and you're seeing data processing units emerge and kind of interesting trends going on there. What do you see? And what's the relationship to HPC? >>Well, I think a few things are going on there. Of course, one is, uh, essentially the end of Moore's law, where you cannot make the cycle time be any faster, so you have to do architectural adjustments. And then if you have a killer app that lends itself to large volume, you can build silicon. That is especially good for that now. Graphics and gaming was an example of that, and people said, Oh my God, I've got all these cores in there. Why can't I use it for computation? So everybody got busy making it 64 bit capable and some grass capability, And then people say, Oh, I know I can use that for a I And you know, now you move it to a I say, Well, I don't really need 64 but maybe I can do it in 32 or 16. So now you do it for that, and then tens, of course, come about. And so there's that sort of a progression of architecture, er trumping, basically cycle time. That's one thing. The second thing is scale out and decentralization and distributed computing. And that means that the inter communication and intra communication among all these notes now becomes an issue big enough issue that maybe it makes sense to go to a DPU. Maybe it makes sense to go do some level of, you know, edge data centers like we were talking about on then. The third thing, really is that in many of these cases you have data streaming. What is really coming from I o t, especially an edge, is that data is streaming and when data streaming suddenly new architectures like F B G. A s become really interesting and and and hold promise. So I do see, I do see FPG's becoming more prominent just for that reason, but then finally got a program all of these things on. That's really a difficulty, because what happens now is that you need to get three different ecosystems together mobile programming, embedded programming and cloud programming. And those are really three different developer types. You can't hire somebody who's good at all three. I mean, maybe you can, but not many. So all of that is challenges that are driving this this this this industry, >>you kind of referred to this distributed network and a lot of people you know, they refer to this. The next generation cloud is this hyper distributed system. When you include the edge and multiple clouds that etcetera space, maybe that's too extreme. But to your point, at least I inferred there's a There's an issue of Leighton. See, there's the speed of light s So what? What? What is the implication then for HBC? Does that mean I have tow Have all the data in one place? Can I move the compute to the data architecturally, What are you seeing there? >>Well, you fundamentally want to optimize when to move data and when to move, Compute. Right. So is it better to move data to compute? Or is it better to bring compute to data and under what conditions? And the dancer is gonna be different for different use cases. It's like, really, is it worth my while to make the trip, get my processing done and then come back? Or should I just developed processing capability right here? Moving data is really expensive and relatively speaking. It has become even more expensive, while the price of everything has dropped down its price has dropped less than than than like processing. So it is now starting to make sense to do a lot of local processing because processing is cheap and moving data is expensive Deep Use an example of that, Uh, you know, we call this in C two processing like, you know, let's not move data. If you don't have to accept that we live in the age of big data, so data is huge and wants to be moved. And that optimization, I think, is part of what you're what you're referring to. >>Yeah, So a couple examples might be autonomous vehicles. You gotta have to make decisions in real time. You can't send data back to the cloud flip side of that is we talk about space borne computers. You're collecting all this data You can at some point. You know, maybe it's a year or two after the lived out its purpose. You ship that data back and a bunch of disk drives or flash drives, and then load it up into some kind of HPC system and then have at it and then you doom or modeling and learn from that data corpus, right? I mean those air, >>right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, driverless vehicles is a great example, because it is obviously coming fast and furious, no pun intended. And also, it dovetails nicely with the smart city, which dovetails nicely with I o. T. Because it is in an urban area. Mostly, you can afford to have a lot of antenna, so you can give it the five g density that you want. And it requires the Layton sees. There's a notion of how about if my fleet could communicate with each other. What if the car in front of me could let me know what it sees, That sort of a thing. So, you know, vehicle fleets is going to be in a non opportunity. All of that can bring all of what we talked about. 21 place. >>Well, that's interesting. Okay, so yeah, the fleets talking to each other. So kind of a Byzantine fault. Tolerance. That problem that you talk about that z kind of cool. I wanna I wanna sort of clothes on quantum. It's hard to get your head around. Sometimes You see the demonstrations of quantum. It's not a one or zero. It could be both. And you go, What? How did come that being so? And And of course, there it's not stable. Uh, looks like it's quite a ways off, but the potential is enormous. It's of course, it's scary because we think all of our, you know, passwords are already, you know, not secure. And every password we know it's gonna get broken. But give us the give us the quantum 101 And let's talk about what the implications. >>All right, very well. So first off, we don't need to worry about our passwords quite yet. That that that's that's still ways off. It is true that analgesic DM came up that showed how quantum computers can fact arise numbers relatively fast and prime factory ization is at the core of a lot of cryptology algorithms. So if you can fact arise, you know, if you get you know, number 21 you say, Well, that's three times seven, and those three, you know, three and seven or prime numbers. Uh, that's an example of a problem that has been solved with quantum computing, but if you have an actual number, would like, you know, 2000 digits in it. That's really harder to do. It's impossible to do for existing computers and even for quantum computers. Ways off, however. So as you mentioned, cubits can be somewhere between zero and one, and you're trying to create cubits Now there are many different ways of building cubits. You can do trapped ions, trapped ion trapped atoms, photons, uh, sometimes with super cool, sometimes not super cool. But fundamentally, you're trying to get these quantum level elements or particles into a superimposed entanglement state. And there are different ways of doing that, which is why quantum computers out there are pursuing a lot of different ways. The whole somebody said it's really nice that quantum computing is simultaneously overhyped and underestimated on. And that is that is true because there's a lot of effort that is like ways off. On the other hand, it is so exciting that you don't want to miss out if it's going to get somewhere. So it is rapidly progressing, and it has now morphed into three different segments. Quantum computing, quantum communication and quantum sensing. Quantum sensing is when you can measure really precise my new things because when you perturb them the quantum effects can allow you to measure them. Quantum communication is working its way, especially in financial services, initially with quantum key distribution, where the key to your cryptography is sent in a quantum way. And the data sent a traditional way that our efforts to do quantum Internet, where you actually have a quantum photon going down the fiber optic lines and Brookhaven National Labs just now demonstrated a couple of weeks ago going pretty much across the, you know, Long Island and, like 87 miles or something. So it's really coming, and and fundamentally, it's going to be brand new algorithms. >>So these examples that you're giving these air all in the lab right there lab projects are actually >>some of them are in the lab projects. Some of them are out there. Of course, even traditional WiFi has benefited from quantum computing or quantum analysis and, you know, algorithms. But some of them are really like quantum key distribution. If you're a bank in New York City, you very well could go to a company and by quantum key distribution services and ship it across the you know, the waters to New Jersey on that is happening right now. Some researchers in China and Austria showed a quantum connection from, like somewhere in China, to Vienna, even as far away as that. When you then put the satellite and the nano satellites and you know, the bent pipe networks that are being talked about out there, that brings another flavor to it. So, yes, some of it is like real. Some of it is still kind of in the last. >>How about I said I would end the quantum? I just e wanna ask you mentioned earlier that sort of the geopolitical battles that are going on, who's who are the ones to watch in the Who? The horses on the track, obviously United States, China, Japan. Still pretty prominent. How is that shaping up in your >>view? Well, without a doubt, it's the US is to lose because it's got the density and the breadth and depth of all the technologies across the board. On the other hand, information age is a new eyes. Their revolution information revolution is is not trivial. And when revolutions happen, unpredictable things happen, so you gotta get it right and and one of the things that these technologies enforce one of these. These revolutions enforce is not just kind of technological and social and governance, but also culture, right? The example I give is that if you're a farmer, it takes you maybe a couple of seasons before you realize that you better get up at the crack of dawn and you better do it in this particular season. You're gonna starve six months later. So you do that to three years in a row. A culture has now been enforced on you because that's how it needs. And then when you go to industrialization, you realize that Gosh, I need these factories. And then, you know I need workers. And then next thing you know, you got 9 to 5 jobs and you didn't have that before. You don't have a command and control system. You had it in military, but not in business. And and some of those cultural shifts take place on and change. So I think the winner is going to be whoever shows the most agility in terms off cultural norms and governance and and and pursuit of actual knowledge and not being distracted by what you think. But what actually happens and Gosh, I think these exa scale technologies can make the difference. >>Shaheen Khan. Great cast. Thank you so much for joining us to celebrate the extra scale day, which is, uh, on 10. 18 on dso. Really? Appreciate your insights. >>Likewise. Thank you so much. >>All right. Thank you for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next guest right here in the Cube. We're celebrating Exa scale day right back.

>>Hello, everyone. My name is John Jane Shake. I work from Iran. Tous Andi. I am here this afternoon very gratefully with Anders Vulcan, who is VP of technology strategy for cloud bees, a Miranda's partner and a well known company in the space that we're going to be discussing. Anders is also a well known entity in this space, which is continuous integration and continuous delivery. Um, you've seen already today some sessions that focus on specific implementations of continuous integration and delivery, um, particularly around security. And, uh, we think this is a critically important topic for anyone in the cloud space, particularly in this increasingly complicated kubernetes space. To understand, um, Miranda's thanks, Uh, if I can recapitulate our own our own strategy and, uh, and language that with complexity on uncertainty consistently increasing with the depth of the technology stacks that we have to deal with consistently, um um elaborating themselves that navigating this requires, um first three implementation of automation to increase speed, which is what C and C d do. Um, and that this speed ba leveraged toe let us ship and iterate code faster. Since that's ultimately the business that all of us air in one way or another. I would like, I guess, toe open this conversation by asking Onders what does he think of that core strategy? >>You know, I think you know, hitting the security thing, right? Right off the bat. You know, security doesn't happen by accident. You know, security is not something that you know, Like a like a server in a restaurant. You know, Sprinkles a little bit of Parmesan cheese right before they serve you the the food. It's not something you Sprinkle on at the end. It's something that has to be baked in from the beginning, not just in the kitchen, but in the supply chain from from from the very beginning. So the you know it's a feature, and if you don't build it, if you're not going to get an outcome that you're not gonna be happy with and I think the you know it's increasingly it's obviously increasingly important and increasingly visible. You know, the you know, the kinds of security problems that we that we see these days can can be, you know, life altering, for for people that are subject to them and and can be, you know, life or death for a company that that's exposed to it. So it's it's it's very, very important. Thio pay attention to it and to work to achieve that as an explicit outcome of the software delivery process. And I think, you know, C i n c d as as process as tooling as culture plays a big part in that because ah, lot of it has to do with, you know, set things up, right? Um run them the same way over and over, you know, get the machine going. Turned the crane. Now, you wanna you wanna make improvements over over time. You know, it's not just, you know, set it and forget it. You know, we got that set up. We don't have to worry about it anymore, but it really is a question of, you know, get the human out of the loop a lot of the times because if if you're dealing with configuring complex systems, you wanna make sure that you get them set up configured, you know, documented Ideally, you know, as code, whether it's a domain specific language or or something like that. And then that's something that you contest against that you can verify against that you can that you can difficult. And then that becomes the basis for for your, you know, for yourself, for pipelines, for your automation around, you know, kind of the software factory floor. So I think automation is a key aspect of that because it, you know, it takes a lot of the drudgery out of it, for one thing, So now the humans have more time to spend on doing on the on the creative things on the things that we're good at a zoo. Humans and it also make sure that, you know, one of the things that computers are really good at is doing the same thing over and over and over and over. Eso that kind of puts that responsibility into the hands of the entity that that knows how to do that well, which is which is the machine eso I think it's, you know, it's a light. It's a deep, deep topic, obviously, but, you know, automation plays into it. Uh, you know, small batch sizes play into it, you know, being able to test very frequently whether that's testing in. You're kind of you're C I pipeline where you're sort of doing building mostly unit testing, maybe some integration testing, but also in layering in the mawr. Serious kinds of testing in terms of security scanning, penetration, testing, vulnerability, scanning. You know those sorts of things which, you know, maybe you do on every single see I Bill. But most people don't because those things tend toe take a little bit longer on. And you know you want your sea ice cycle to be as fast as possible because that's really in service of the developer who has committed code and wants toe kind of see the thumbs up from the system saying it. And, um, so most organizations most organizations are are are focusing on, you know, making sure that there's a follow on pipeline to follow on set of tests that happened after the C I passes successfully and and that's, you know, where a lot of the security scanning and those sorts of things happen. >>It's a It's an interesting problem. I mean, you mentioned, um, what almost sounds like a Lawrence Lessig Ian kind of idea that, you know, code is law in enterprises today, code particularly see, I code ends up being policy, but At the same time, there's, Ah, it seems to me there's a an alternative peril, which is, as you increase speed, particularly when you become more and more dependent on things like containers and layering technology to provide components and capabilities that you don't have to build yourself to your build pipeline, that there are new vulnerabilities, potentially that creep in and can creep in despite automation. Zor at least 1st. 1st order automation is attempts toe to prevent them from creeping in. You don't wanna you wanna freeze people on a six month old version of a key container image. But on the other hand, if the latest version has vulnerabilities, that could be a problem. >>Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a double edged sword. It's two sides of the same coin. I think you know, when I talked to a lot of security people, um, you know, people to do it for a living is supposed to mean I just talk about it, um, that Z not completely true. But, um, the ah, lot of times the problem is old vulnerabilities. The thing that I think keeps a lot of people up at night isn't necessarily that the thing at the tip of the releases for particular, you know, well known open source, library or something like that. But that's gonna burn you all the vast majority of the time. And I want to say, like, 80 85% of the time. The vulnerability is that you that you get hosed by are ones that have been known about for years. And so I think the if I had to pick. So if you know, in that sort of two sides of that coin, if I had to pick, I would say Be aggressive in making sure that your third party dependencies are updated frequently and and continuously right, because that is the biggest, biggest cause of of of security vulnerabilities when it comes to third party code. Um, now you know the famous saying, You know, move fast and break things Well, there's certain things you don't want to break. You know you don't want to break a radiation machine that's going to deliver radio radiotherapy to someone because that will endanger their health. So So those sorts of systems, you know, naturally or subject a little bit more kind of caution and scrutiny and rigor and process those sorts of things. The micro service that I run that shows my little avatar when I log in, that one probably gets a little less group. You know, Andre rightfully so. So I think a lot of it has to do. And somebody once said in a I think it was, Ah, panel. I was on a PR say conference, which was, which was kind of a wise thing to say it was Don't spend a million dollars protecting a $5 assets. You know, you wanna be smart and you wanna you wanna figure out where your vulnerabilities they're going to come from and in my experience, and and you know, what I hear from a lot of the security professionals is pay attention to your supply chain. You're you want to make sure that you're up to date with the latest patches of, of all of your third party, you know, open source or close source. It doesn't really matter. I mean, if anything, you know, open source is is more open. Eso You could inspect things a little bit better than the close source, but with both kinds of streams of code that you consume and and use. You wanna make sure that you're you're more up to date as opposed to a less up to date? Um, that generally will be better. Now, can a new version of the library cause problems? You know, introduce bugs? You know, those sorts of things? Yes. That's why we have tests. That's what we have automated tests, regression, sweets, You know, those sorts of things. And so you wanna, you know, you wanna live in a in a world where you feel the confidence as a as a developer, that if I update this library from, you know, one debt owed at 3 to 1 debt owed at 10 to pick up a bunch of, you know, bug fixes and patches and those sorts of things. But that's not going to break some on demand in the test suites that that will run against that ought to cover that that sort of functionality. And I'd rather be in that world of Oh, yeah, we tried to update to that, but it But it broke the tests and then have to go spend time on that, then say, Oh, it broke the test. So let's not update. And then six months later, you do find out. Oh, geez. There was a problem in one that owed at three. And it was fixed in one. That about four. If only we had updated. Um, you know, you look at the, um you look at some of the highest profile security breaches that are out there that you sort of can trace toe third party libraries. It's almost always gonna be that it was out of date and hadn't been patched. That's so that's my you know, opinionated. Take on that. Sure. >>What are the parts of modern C I c D. As opposed to what one would encounter 56 years ago? Maybe if we can imagine that is being before the micro services and containers revolution really took off. >>You know, I think e think you're absolutely right that, you know, not the whole world is not doing. See, I Yeah, and certainly the whole world is not doing city yet. Um, you know, I think you know, as you say, we kind of live in a little bit of an ivory tower. You know, we live in an echo chamber in a little bit of a bubble Aziz vendors in this space. The truth is that I would say less than 50% of the software organizations out there do real. See, I do real CD. The number's probably less than that. Um, you know, I don't have anything to back that up other than just I talked to a lot of folks and work with, you know, with a lot of organizations and like, Yeah, that team does see I that team does Weekly builds You know, those sorts of things. It's it's really all over the place, Onda. Lot of times there's There's definitely, in my experience, a high correlation there with the amount of time that a team or a code base has been around, and the amount of sort of modern technologies and processes and and and so on that are that are brought to it on. And that sort of makes sense. I mean, if you if you're starting with the green field with a blank sheet of paper, you're gonna adopt, you know, the technologies and the processes and the cultures of today. A knot of 5, 10 15 15 years ago, Um but but most organizations air moving in that direction. Right? Andi, I think you know what? What? What? What's really changed in the last few years is the level of integration between the various tools between the various pieces and the amount of automation that you could bring to bear. I mean, I you know, I remember, you know, five or 10 years ago having all kinds of conversations with customers and prospects and and people of conferences and so on and they said, Oh, yeah, we'd like to automate our our software development life cycle, but, you know, we can't We have a manual thing here. We have a manual thing there. We do this kind of testing that we can automate it, and then we have this system, but it doesn't have any guy. So somebody has to sit and click on the screen. And, you know, and I used to say e used to say I don't accept No for an answer of can you automate this right? Everything. Anything can be automated. Even if you just get the little drinking bird. You know that just pokes the mouse. Everyone something. You can automate it, and I Actually, you know, I had one customer who was like, Okay, and we had a discussion and and and and they said, Well, we had this old Windows tool. We Its's an obscure tool. It's no longer updated, but it's it's it's used in a critical part of the life cycle and it can't be automated. And I said, Well, just install one of those Windows tools that allows you to peek and poke at the, you know, mass with my aunt I said so I don't accept your answer. And I said, Well, unfortunately, security won't allow us to install those tools, Eh? So I had to accept No, at that point, but But I think the big change were one of the biggest changes that's happened in the last few years is the systems now have all I'll have a p i s and they all talk to each other. So if you've gotta, you know, if you if you've got a scanning tool, if you've got a deployment tool, if you have a deployment, you know, infrastructure, you know, kubernetes based or, you know, kind of sitting in front of our around kubernetes thes things. I'll talk to each other and are all automated. So one of the things that's happened is we've taken out a lot of the weight states. A lot of the pauses, right? So if you you know, if you do something like a value stream mapping where you sit down and I'll date myself here and probably lose some of the audience with this analogy. But if you remember Schoolhouse Rock cartoons in in the late seventies, early eighties, there was one which was one of my favorites, and and the guy who did the music for this passed away last year, sadly, But, uh, the it was called How a bill Becomes a Law and they personified the bill. So the bill, you know, becomes a little person and, you know, first time passed by the house and then the Senate, and then the president either signs me or doesn't and or he vetoes, and it really sort of did this and what I always talk about with respect to sort of value stream mapping and talking about your processes, put a GoPro camera on your source codes head, and then follow that source code all the way through to your customer understand all of the stuff that happens to it, including nothing, right? Because a lot of times in that elapsed time, nothing keeps happening, right. If we build software the way we were sorry. If we build cars the way we build software, we would install the radio in a car, and then we would park it in a corner of the factory for three weeks. And then we might remember to test the radio before we ship the car out to the customer. Right, Because that's how a lot of us still develop some for. And I think one thing that's changed in the in the last few years is that we don't have these kind of, Well, we did the bill. So now we're waiting for somebody to create an environment and rack up some hardware and install an operating system and install. You know, this that and the other. You know, that that went from manual to we use Scheffer puppet to do it, which then went to we use containers to do it, which then went to we use containers and kubernetes to do it. So whole swaths of elapsed time in our software development life cycles basically went to nothing, right and went to the point where we can weaken, weaken, configure them way to the left and and and follow them all the way through. And that the artifact that we're delivering isn't necessarily and execute herbal. It could be a container, right? So now that starts to get interesting for us in terms of being able to test against that container scan against that container, def. Against that container, Um, you know, and it, you know, it does bring complexity to in terms of now you've got a layered file system in there. Well, what all is in there, you know, And so there's tools for scanning those kinds of things, But But I think that one of the biggest things that's happened is a lot of the natural pause. Points are no longer natural. Pause points their unnatural pause points, and they're now just delays in yourself for delivery. And so what? What a lot of organizations are working on is kind of getting to the point where those sorts of things get get automated and connected, and that's now possible. And it wasn't 55 or 10 years ago. >>So It sounds like a great deal of the speed benefit, which has been quantified many different ways. But is once you get one of these systems working, as we've all experienced enormous, um, is actually done by collapsing out what would have been unused time in a prior process or non paralyze herbal stuff has been made parallel. >>I remember doing a, uh, spent some time with a customer, and they did a value stream mapping, and they they found out at the end that of the 30 days of elapsed time they were spending three days on task. Everything else was waiting, waiting for a build waiting foran install, waiting for an environment, waiting for an approval, having meetings, you know, those sorts of things. And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, you know, 90% of the elapsed time is doing nothing. And I was talking to someone Gene Kim, actually, and I said, Oh my God, it was terrible that these you know, these people are screwed and he says, 0 90%. That's actually pretty good, you know? So So I think you know, if you if you think today, you know, if you If you if you look at the teams that are doing just really pure continuous delivery, you know, write some code committed, gets picked up by the sea ice system and passes through CIA goes through whatever coast, see I processing, you need to do security scanning and so on. It gets staged and it gets pushed into production. That stuff can happen in minutes, right? That's new. That's different. Now, if you do that without having the right automated gates in place around security and and and and those sorts of things you know, then you're living a little bit dangerously, although I would argue not necessarily any more dangerously, than just letting that insecure coat sit around for a week before your shipment, right? It's not like that problem is going to fix itself if you just let it sit there, Um, but But, you know, you definitely operated at a higher velocity. Now that's a lot of the benefit that you're tryingto trying to get out of it, right? You can get stuff out to the market faster, or if you take a little bit more time, you get more out to the market in, in in the same amount of time you could turn around and fix problems faster. Um, if you have a vulnerability, you can get it fixed and pushed out much more quickly. If you have a competitive threat that you need to address, you can you know, you could move that that much faster if you have a critical bug. You know, I mean, all security issues or bugs, sort of by definition. But, you know, if you have a functionality bug, you can you can get that pushed out faster. Eso So I think kind of all factors of the business benefit from from this increase in speed. And I think developers due to because anybody you know, any human that has a context switch and step away from something for for for, you know, duration of time longer than a few minutes, you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna have to load back up again. And so that's productivity loss. Now, that's a soft cost. But man, is it Is it expensive and is a painful So you see a lot of benefit there. Think >>if you have, you know, an organization that is just starting this journey What would you ask that organization to consider in orderto sort of move them down this path? >>It's by far the most frequent and almost always the first question I get at the end of the talk or or a presentation or something like that is where do we start? How do I know where to start? And and And there's a couple of answers to that. What one is Don't boil the ocean, right? Don't try to fix everything all at once. You know that because that's not agile, right? The be agile about your transformation Here, you know, pick, pick a set of problems that you have and and make a, you know, basically make a burn down list and and do them in order. So find find a pain point that you have right and, you know, just go address that and and try to make it small and actionable and especially early on when you're trying to affect change. And you're tryingto convinced teams that this is the way to go and you may have some naysayers, or you may have people who are skeptical or have been through these processes before that have been you know failures released, not the successes that they that they were supposed to be. You know, it's important to have some wind. So what I always say is look, you know, if you have a pebble in your shoe, you've got a pain point. You know how to address that. You know, you're not gonna address that by changing out your wardrobe or or by buying a new pair of shoes. You know, you're gonna address that by taking your shoe off, shaking it until the pebble falls out there putting the shoe back on. So look for those kinds of use cases, right? So if you're engineers are complaining that whenever I check in the build is broken and we're not doing see, I well, then let's look at doing C I Let's do see eye, right? If you're not doing that. And for most organizations, you know, setting up C I is a very manageable, very doable thing. There's lots of open source tooling out there. There's lots of commercial tooling out there. Thio do that to do it for small teams to do it for large teams and and everything in between. Um, if the problem is Gosh, Every time we push a change, we break something. You know where every time something works in staging it doesn't work in production. Then you gotta look at Well, how are these systems being configured? If you're If you're configuring them manually, stop automate the configuration of them. Um, you know, if you're if you're fixing system manually, don't you know, as a friend of mine says, don't fix, Repave? Um, you know, you don't wanna, you know, there's a story of, you know how how Google operates in their data centers. You know, they don't they don't go look for a broken disk drive and swap it out. You know, when it breaks, they just have a team of people that, like once a month or something, I don't know what the interval is. They just walked through the data center and they pull out all the dead stuff and they throw it out, and what they did was they assume that if the scale that they operate, things are always going to break physical things are always going to break. You have to build a software to assume that breakage and any system that assumes that we're going to step in when a disk drive is broken and fix it so that we can get back to running just isn't gonna work at scale. There's a similarity. There's sort of ah, parallel to that in in software, which is you know, any time you have these kinds of complex systems, you have to assume that they're gonna break and you have to put the things in place to catch those things. The automated testing, whether it's, you know, whether you have 10,000 tests that you that you've written already or whether you have no tests and you just need to go right, your first test that that journey, you've got to start somewhere. But my answer thio their questions generally always just start small, pick a very specific problem. Build a plan around it, you know, build a burned down list of things that you wanna address and just start working your way down that the same way that you would for any, you know, kind of agile project, your transformation of your own processes of your own internal systems. You should use agile processes for those as well, because if you if you go off for six months and and build something. By the time you come back, it's gonna be relevant. Probably thio the problems that you were facing six months ago. >>A Then let's consider the situation of, ah, company that's using C I and maybe sea ice and C d together. Um, and they want to reach what you might call the next level. Um, they've seen obvious benefits they're interested in, you know, in increasing their investment in, you know and cycles devoted to this technology. You don't have to sell them anymore, but they're looking for a next direction. What would you say that direction should be? I >>think oftentimes what organizations start to do is they start to look at feedback loops. So on DAT starts to go into the area of sort of metrics and analytics and those sorts of things. You know what we're we're always concerned about? You know, we're always affected by things like meantime to recovery. Meantime, the detection, what are our cycle times from, you know, ideation, toe codecommit. What's the cycle? Time from codecommit the production, those sorts of things. And you know you can't change what you don't measure eso so a lot of times the next step after kind of getting the rudimentary zoo of C I Orsini or some combination of both in places start to measure. Stop you, Um, and and then but But there. I think you know, you gotta be smart about it, because what you don't want to do is kind of just pull all the metrics out that exists. Barf them up on the dashboard. And the giant television screens say boom metrics, right. You know, Mike, drop go home. That's the wrong way to do it. You want to use metrics very specifically to achieve outcomes. So if you have an outcome that you want to achieve and you can tie it to a metric start looking at that metric and start working that problem once you saw that problem, you can take that metric. And you know, if that's the metric you're showing on the big you know, the big screen TV, you can pop that off and pick the next one and put it up there. I I always worry when you know a little different when you're in a knock or something like that. When when you're looking at the network stuff and so on. But I'm always leery of when I walk into to a software development organization. You know, just a Brazilian different metrics, this whole place because they're not all relevant. They're not all relevant at the same time. Some of them you wanna look at often, some of them you just want to kind of set an alarm on and make sure that, you know, I mean, you don't go down in your basement every day to check that the sump pump is working. What you do is you put a little water detector in there and you have an alarm go off if the water level ever rises above a certain amount. Well, you want to do the same thing with metrics, right? Once you've got in the water out of your basement, you don't have to go down there and look at it all the time. You put the little detector in, and then you move on and you worry about something else. And so organizations as they start to get a little bit more sophisticated and start to look at the analytics, the metrics, um, start to say, Hey, look, if our if our cycle time from from, you know, commit to deploy is this much. And we want it to be this much. What happens during that time, And where can we take slices out of that? You know, without without affecting the outcomes in terms of quality and so on, or or if it's, you know, from from ideation, toe codecommit. You know what? What can we do there? Um, you start to do that. And and then as you get those sort of virtuous cycles of feedback loops happening, you know, you get better and better and better, but you wanna be careful with metrics, you know, you don't wanna, you know, like I said, you don't wanna barf a bunch of metrics up just to say, Look, we got metrics. Metrics are there to serve a particular outcome. And once you've achieved that outcome, and you know that you can continue to achieve that outcome, you turn it into an alarm or a trigger, and you put it out of sight. And you know that. You know, you don't need to have, like, a code coverage metric prominently displayed you you pick a code coverage number that you're happy with you work to achieve that. Once you achieve it, you just worry about not going below that threshold again. So you can take that graph off and just put a trigger on this as if we ever get below this, you know, raising alarm or fail a build or fail a pipeline or something like that and then start to focus on improving another man. Uh, or another outcome using another matter >>makes enormous sense. So I'm afraid we are getting to be out of time. I want to thank you very much on this for joining us today. This has been certainly informative for me, and I hope for the audience, um, you know, thank you very, very much for sharing your insulin.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high-tech coverage, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. Two sets, wall-to-wall coverage, our 10th year. We actually call this one the Valley set, over on the other side, it's in the middle of a meadow, and this was in the valley. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for this segment is, of course, John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And joining us, the quintessential Valley guest that we have, Jerry Chen. Long time participant in the program, climbing up the leaderboard here of theCUBE Times at VMworld. Jerry, thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, John, thanks for having me back. >> All right, so we knew you back when you worked for VMware. >> Jerry: Right. >> You're now a partner at Greylock. We watched some of your amazing startups, we've had many of them on our program. Just a little bit going on in your world this day, maybe we'll start there. >> Sure, it amazes me, both being at VMworld 10 years since you guys started covering. For me, I joined VMware back in 2003. So I was at the first Vmworld, through every single one of them, and seeing this ecosystem reinvent itself, and juxtapose that with every other conference at Moscone. So Dreamforce, Oracle OpenWorld, VMworld. And I would say five years ago, no one would have thought Dreamforce itself, or Salesforce as an ecosystem big enough for investors. But yes, now they can invest in startups. All they do is sell to the Salesforce ecosystem. You can always invest in a startup. All they sell to is the VMware ecosystem. And for sure, when, you and I, three of us go to Amazon or an event, that ecosystem just continues to grow exponentially year over year. >> And this some of the highlights of Datadog, we were talking before we came on camera. They always had a big booth, they bet on the AWS ecosystem, not a lot of Datadog here, but monitoring turns into observability, a key component, which basically was a white space. I mean, monitoring was boring. A little sector, but because of the nature of the data security auditing, this has become kind of a killer category. >> I think last week you saw SignalFX get acquired by Splunk, which is another huge enterprise company, and Datadog filed their S-1. No one thought monitoring would be a big enough market to support multiple billion plus companies, and what we've learned is making a bet on just cloud-native companies like Datadog did, purely in the Amazon Ecosystem, was a great bet because they've grown super fast, and that market turned out to be very big. In addition, it could be Splunk, and they could bet on logging for mostly on-premise companies. That turned out to be a large market. So I think five, 10 years ago, no one thought that these markets would be so big and so gigantic. The cloud itself, you can have a multi-billion dollar company like Datadog purely on a cloud-native application and cloud-native companies, if you will. >> You know, it's interesting, you're a VC and the enterprise specialist at Greylock. Consumer used to be all the rage in venture. "Oh, we're going to consumer against Facebook," Facebook breaks democracy, all kinds of problems. Being regulated. But enterprise became really hot with the cloud, and then you have an interesting dynamic. Now a thousand flowers are blooming on the startup side, so yes, there's a lot of action in startups, but the buyers of startups and the IPO markets is where the liquidity happens, which you care about, right? So now you have liquidity options for IPO for fast-growing flit scalers as you guys call it, and then the M and A market are buying the companies. So I got to ask you, with seeing Splunk as a great example, where they own the log market, log files, bring SignalFX in, former VMware guys and Facebook guys, comes in, they add some servability piece to it. Splunk's got more power now because of the acquisition. It's not just token acquisition. This is the market, product market slash M and A market. What's your thoughts on that? Because that's a key exit opportunity, and the numbers are pretty sizable when you think about it. >> I think just going back to the opportunity, the market's so big that you have multiple multi-billion dollar companies, so like Splunk's a huge company, great company. We're investors in a company called Sumo Logic. That's going to also be a successful company, and also a big-- >> John: And filed for IPO. >> And a big company that's OZA, Amazon, and Vmworld. So I think what you have here is each of these markets are monitoring, APM, the log, infrastructure, are turning out to be multi multi-billion, and larger than we anticipated. So I think before, to your analogy in the consumer, we always knew consumer markets had huge TAMs. Like how many billion in people are on Facebook? How many billion people are on Twitter? What we're learning now is the market and the TAM for these enterprise software companies, be it SAAS, be it LOG, be it Metrics, be it security, those TAMs are actually bigger than we thought beforehand as well. >> And the driver of that is what? Cloud, transformation, just replatforming, modernization? The businesses are businesses still. >> I think the move to cloud is accelerate, I think your last line, "businesses are businesses," is what's key. Like every business now is being touched by software. They all got to go cloud so I'm an investor in a company called Blend that does mortgage software. So the entire financial services industry, from mortgages to car loans and consumer lending, that's all going digital. That's all going online. Jobs that were like mortgage brokers are going to be an app on your phone now. So finance, retail, healthcare, construction, so all these markets now are going to the cloud, going digital, so these TAMs are expanding exponentially. >> Yeah, Jerry, want to get your take on the ecosystem. You know, we look at VMware, they built a big ecosystem, the end user computing space, you know. You've coined the term Virtual Desktop Infrastructure, from that environment there was an ecosystem around there. I see VMware at a lot of shows, and they have a good presence there, and there's some overlap between the public cloud space. Like when I go to this show, and I walk through the expo hall, oh my gosh. Data protection is everywhere, and all of those companies are at a all of the cloud environment, but do you see a transition from, you know, where VMware is in kind of the cloud-native space? Is there a lot of overlap, or what's your thinking on those kind of dynamics? >> I think all above. I think VMware at Vwworld, and like all these tech companies are constantly reinventing themselves and expanding. So you have, as a VC, say it's this company I'm looking at, when it's two individuals, and a dog, and PowerPoint. Is it a feature, is it a product, or is it a company? It's a feature, it's okay. You know, it's probably not worth the investment, but it's worthwhile. It'll get acquired for something. Is it a product? Some companies are just one killer product, right? And you can ride that product for the arc of the company. But then some startups turn out be companies, multi-product companies. And there always have one or two great products, and then you start adding new things as the market evolves, and VMware has done that. And so, as a result of adding server virtualization, desktop virtualization, Cloud Foundry which I helped build, out in the Kubernetes stuff. So they're adding multiple products to their company. I think the great companies can do that. Look at Amazon. They keep launching 10 new products every single month. Microsoft has done a great job reinventing themselves. So I think the great companies can reinvent, but not transform, they just add to what they have, and just to be a multi-product family. >> Stu: All right, so you mentioned Cloud Foundry. >> Yeah. >> Pivotal, of course, is now back in the mothership where it started there. When Cloud Foundry first started it was, "Well, we're not going to take the hypervisor "and put it all of these places." We needed a slightly different footprint. Well, five years later, we're talking about Kubernetes is going to be baked into Vsphere, and Vsphere is going to be a main piece of VMware's cloud-native strategy. Has the market changed or some of those technology pieces, you know, still a challenge? What's your take there? >> You know, it's a great question because I think what we're seeing is there's never ever in technology as you guys know, on platforms, it's a zero-sum game. It's never always going to all mainframe, all client server, all VMs, all microservers, all Serverless, right? And I think we're seeing is it's also never going to be all Amazon, it's never going to be all Google, it's never going to be all Azure, right? I think we talked about early days, it's not a winner take all. It may be, you know, what one-third, two-thirds, or something, 25-40% market share, but it's not going to be all or nothing. And so we're seeing companies now have architectures on multiple clouds, multiple technologies, and so just like 10 years ago, you had a mainframe team, you had a Windows team, you had a Solaris team. Remember Sun and Spark? And a Linux team. Now you have a Google team, and Azure team, an Amazon team, and an on-prem team. And so you just had these different stacks evolve, and I think what's interesting to see is like, we've kind of had this swing of momentum around Docker, Containers, Kubernetes, Serverless, but at the same time you see a bunch of folks realize, okay, what's happening is I'm choosing how much I want to consume. Like an API, a container, or a whole VM, right? And people realizing, yes, maybe consuming the APIs is our right level of consumption, but quite frankly, Stu, John, buying whole VMs also what I want. So you see a bunch of companies say, I'm just going to build better monolithic applications around VMware, I'm going to build better microservices around Docker and Kubernetes, and then we'll use Serverless where I think I need to use Serverless. >> Yeah, that's a good point. One of the things we hear from customers we talk to, and there's two types of enterprise customers, at least in the enterprise infrastructure side, classic CIOs and then CISOs. Two different spectrums. CIOs, old, traditional, multi-vendor means a good thing, no lock in, I know how to deal with that world. CISOs, they want to build their own stacks, manage their own technology, then push APIs out to the suppliers, and rechange the supplier relationship because security is so important they're forced to the cutting edge. So I look at that a kind of canary in the coal mine, and want to get your thought on that, because we're seeing a trend where enterprises are building software. They're saying, hey, you know, I want a stack internally that we're going to do for a variety of different reasons, security or whatever, and that doesn't really blend well for the multi-cloud team approach, because not everyone can have three killer teams building stacks, so you're seeing some people saying, you know, I'm going to pick a cloud here and go all in on certain things, build the stack, and then have a backup cloud there. And then some CIOs say, hey, you know what? I want all the cloud guys in there negotiating their best price maybe, or whatever. >> I think it's great nuance you pointed out. Even just like we had a Windows team and a Linux team, you still had a single database team that ran across both, or storage teams are ran across both. So I think the nuance here is certain parts of the stack should be Azure, Amazon, VMware. Certain parts of the stack should be, I think that the ultimate expression is just an API with service errors. So one of the companies you guys are familiar with, Roxette, it's a search and Serverless analytics company. It's basically an API in the cloud, multi-cloud, to do search and analytics. And just like you had a database team that's independent across all these stacks, for certain parts of the architecture, you're going to want something like Roxette, that's going to be independent of the architecture stacks. And so it's not all isolated, it's not siloed, it's not all horizontal, depending on the part of the stack, you're going to either want a horizontal cross-cloud solution, or a team that's going to go deep on one. >> So it's really a contextual decision based on what the environment looks like, or business. >> And there's certain areas of technology that we know from history that lends themself to either full stacks versus horizontals. Just like I said, there was a storage team and a database team, right? That's Oracle, or something that ran across Windows and Linux and Sun, you're going to see someone like Roxette become this search and Serverless analytics team across multiple cloud stacks. >> This is why the investment is such a great opportunity for the enterprise VCs right now because, I mean, there's so many dimensions of opportunities for companies to grow and become pretty large, and the markets are shifting so the TAM is pretty big. Michael Dell was just on the other side, I interviewed him. He says, you know, he was getting kind of in Dave's grill saying, "Well, the TAM for enterprise is bigger than cloud TAM." I go, "Well that TAM is going to be replatformized, so like that's going away and moving, shifting, so the numbers are big but they're shifting so tons of opportunities. >> It depends if you're a big company like Dell versus a small startup. Oftentimes, this true that the TAM for enterprise is still much larger than cloud, but your point is what's shifting were the dollars growing fast. >> The TAM for horses was huge at one point, and then, you know, cars came along, right? So you know. >> Every startup, what you want to do, you want to attach to a growing budget. You don't want to attach to a flat to shrinking budget. And so right now, if you're a founder, and say, "Okay, where are the budget dollars flowing to?" Everyone's got a kind of a cloud strategy, just like they had a VMware virtualization strategy, so if I'm like a startup G, metrics, or data analytics, I'm going to try to attach to where the dollars are flowing. That's a cloud strategy, that's an AI application strategy, security strategy. >> So let me ask you one question. So if I'm going to start up, this is a hypothetical startup, startups got an opportunity. It's a SaaS-based startup, they say, "You know what? "This is a feature in the market "that's part of a bigger system, "but I'm going to innovate on that." I think that with the markets shifting, that could evolve into a large TAM to your point about Datadog. What's the strategy, from an investment standpoint, that you would take? Would you say go all in on the single product? Do you want to have one or two features? What's the makeup of that approach, because you want to have some maybe defensibility, is it go all in on the one thing and hope that you return into like a Salesforce, then you bolt stuff on, or do you go in and try to do a little platform play underneath? >> It depends where you are in the startup world. We're in lifecycle. Look, startups succeed because they do one thing better, right? And so focus, focus, focus. And you have to have something that's like 10 times faster, 10 times better, 10 times cheaper, or something different. Something the world hasn't seen before. But if you do that one thing well, either A, you're taking budget dollars from incumbents, or B, you're something net new, the world hasn't seen, people will come to you when they see utility. As an investor I like to see that focus, I like to see, you know, some founders you get say, hey, Stu, think bigger. Some founders like John think smaller. Like what's your wedge? What's that initial entry point to the customer you're going to hit? Because once you land that, you get the right to do the next product, the next feature. >> That's the land, adopt, expand, like Xoom did. Or they picked video, >> Correct, voice, et cetera. >> I mean who the hell thought that was going to be a big market? It's a legacy market but they innovated with the cloud. >> Absolutely. I have all these sayings that I try to say like, "You don't get to play the late innings, "if you don't make it out the early innings," right? You know, and so if you want and have this strategy for this large platform, that's great, and every VC wants to see a path there. But they want to see execute from we're going to land, and we're expand. Now, startups fail because either where they land, they picked incorrectly. Like you decided to storm the wrong beach, right? Or it's either to small, or it's too big. The initial landing spot is too big, and they can't hold that ground. And so part of the art of navigating from Point A to Point B, or where I say, Act one, Act two, Act three of a lifecycle is make sure that you land correctly, earn your keep, show a lot of value, win that first battle, if you will, Act one, and then they move to Act two, Act three, and you can see a company like VMware clearly on their second, third act, right? And they've done a nice job of owning one product category, server virtualization, desktop virtualization, now expanding to other adjacent categories, buying companies like Carbon Black, right? In terms of security. So it doesn't happen overnight. I mean, VMware started in 1998. I was there when there was about 200 employees. People forget Amazon's been, gosh 27, 1998, when Bezos started selling books. Now they're selling books, movies, food, groceries, video, right? >> When did you first use AWS? Was it when the EC2 launched? I mean, everyone kicked the tires on that puppy. >> We all kicked the tires. I was at VMware as a Product Manager, I think it was '06 when they launched, right? And we all kind of kicked the tires on it. And it was a classic innoverse dilemna. We saw this thing that you thought was small and a very narrow surface area. Amazon started with an EC2, >> Two building blocks, storage and EC2. >> S-3, right, that's it. And then they said, "Okay, we're going to give a focus, focus on basic compute and basic object storage," and people were like, "What can you do with S-3? "Nothing," right? It's not a Sand, it's an availability. It's going to fail all the time, but people just started innovating and working their way through it. >> All right, so Jerry, when you look at the overall marketscape out there today, it seems like you still feel pretty confident that it's a good time for startups. Would you say that's true? >> Absolutely. >> All right, I want to get your final word here. 10 years in theCUBE at Vmworld, you know, you've known John for a long time. Did you think we'd make it? Any big memories as to what you've seen as we've changed over the years. >> I've plenty, let's go back to, >> John: Okay, now you can embarrass us. >> 10 year anniversary of VMworld. For your first Vmworld 10 years ago, I was like a Product Manager, and John Furrier, I think I met at a Press dinner, and he's like, "Hey, Chen," walking by, "come here, sit down," and they turn the camera on, and we had no idea what was going on, and he just started asking a bunch of random questions. I'm like, sure, I haven't cleared this with marketing or anyone else, but why not? >> John: Hijack interview, we call that. >> Hijack interview, and then it's been amazing to watch the two of you, Dave, John, everybody, grow SiliconANGLE and theCUBE in particular, and to this, the immediate franchise, in terms of both having a presence at all these shows, like Amazon, Oracle World, DreamForce, Vmworld, etc. But also the content you guys have, right? So now you have 10 years of deep content, and embarrassingly enough, 10 years, I guess, of videos of yours truly, which is always painful to watch, like either what I was saying, or you know, what my hair looked like back then. >> Stu: Jerry, you still have hair though, so. (laughing) >> Well, the beautiful thing is that we can look at the reputation trajectory of what people say and what actually happens. You always had good picks, loved the post you did on MOATs. That turned out to be very timeless content, and yeah, sometimes you miss it, we sometimes cringe. >> We miss a bunch. >> I remember starting one time with no headset on. Lot of great memories, Jerry. Great to have you in the community. Thanks for all your contribution. >> I look forward to the next 10 years of theCUBE, so I got to be here for the 20th anniversary, and now if I walk away, come back on right away, do I get another notch on my CUBE attending list so I can go up and catch Hared in the best? >> If you come on the other set, that counts as another interview. >> Perfect, so I got to catch up with Steve and the rest of the guys. >> Steve just lost it to Eric Herzog just a minute ago. We had a ceremony. It was like a walk through the supermarket, the doors thing, and the confetti came down. 11th time so you got to get to 11 now. So 12 is the high water mark. >> Done, we need t-shirts. (laughing) >> Well Jerry, thanks so much for joining us again. For John Furrier, I'm Stu Miniman, and you can go to theCUBE.net, if you search for Jerry Chen, there's over 16 interviews on there. I know I've gone back and watched some of them. Some great discussions we've had over the years. Thanks so much, and stay tuned for lots more coverage here at Vmworld 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> from the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the cue. Now, here's your host. Day Volonte. >> Hi, >> everybody. Welcome to this cute conversation. I'm Dave Volonte and Stew Minuteman is here with me. We're gonna break down a w s kind of give you Ah, midyear What's happened so far this year with all the events that we've been covering and what to look forward to? Uh, the N Y C Summit is coming up stew. It's been a big year. Obviously. What we came off a re invent. Amazon's got $30,000,000,000 run rate business growing at 40 plus percent per year. That means they're putting 9,000,000,000 of incremental revenue every year into the cloud business. The marketplace, That growth that's roughly as large is tthe e entire Microsoft cloud business, which is astounding >> day that that that's that's the point Amazon definitely has been making for a couple of years. And you're absolutely right. Microsoft is definitely growing at a faster pace than Amazon, and they're running about 75 87 but off a much smaller number. So the incremental add that Amazon has been throwing off the last couple years. Every year they're adding more than an azure every year. So absolutely Amazon, you know, is the lead horse out there. And while you know, the horses on the track behind them are trying fast to catch up Amazon. If you talk about Infrastructures service, AWS is still the lead. >> Well, the big question is. Will that attenuate? And we were at Remember the Nutanix inaugural Nutanix Stop next? Do you rush Pandey, who's very smart guy, somebody we respect a lot. One of the fundamental assumptions they were making is eventually the law of large numbers will catch up to them and know it very well May. But it hasn't yet. I asked John Lovelock, can a company the size of Amazon $30,000,000,000 company grow it for 42% a year? Is that sustainable? And he said, Absolutely. There's nothing to stop them now. Who knows who has the crystal ball? What are your thoughts? >> Yeah, So, Dave, what we saw is Amazon's not sitting still. You know, they always like to say it's always Day one, and if you look at where they're going, the products that they keep throwing off the innovation that they keep moving on and the flywheel that they've had first of customer acquisition with all of the innovations that they're putting out there and the flight well. But I've been talking about the last couple of years the label of data, which is something we want to be a little concerned about. How much data Amazon actually does have both Amazon AWS and Amazon, with all those intelligent devices that are in your homes and connecting everything together. Some people are a little concerned about that. The government's a little bit concerned about that, but absolutely Amazon is going everywhere. We've seen Amazon going into sub segments of the market, going into verticals and going just really broad, really deep. So absolutely I don't see anything slowing a bit on down. It is a company that continues to impress one of >> the challenges. I think those do that that Amazon does have, and this came out of the reinforced >> conference a couple weeks ago in Boston, which was, Ah, conference for security practitioners, a lot of si SOS chief information security officers. The number one challenge that came out of that when you talk to practitioners was their ability to keep up with the innovations that Amazon is putting forth. So, you know, I wonder if we're gonna talk to some commercial customers. You'll see them down the summit probe to see if, in fact, that's part of their challenge. Just the pace at which Amazon brings out new features. But we've done Gosh, we've covered eight events or will have covered eight events this year. Eight productions. It started in the U. K. Where we covered a public sector health care. And then we did the AWS summit London really all about both public sector in the UK as well as the summit in the UK Innovations in the UK around cloud, etcetera, cloud adoption. 12,000 people at the AWS London summit. Now you covered re Mars, which was not the Cube wasn't there, but you were there. What was that show? >> Yes. So, first of all, it's an Amazon >> show, not a native US show, but absolutely showed underneath where eight of us fits into the fulfillment centers of Amazon. And it was about re Marceau Mars A play of course on space. But it was a machine learning automation, robotics in space. So you had the cool blue origin stuff that actually brought in. Robert Downey Jr talked about how he's going to save the planet with, you know, robotics and intelligence out there to help clean up pollution in the globe on and the like. But it was a phenomenal show, but what I said is actually going to show a little bit underneath the covers of Amazon similar what we've seen from eight of us at the reinvent shows over the years. Because, you know, we all know how many boxes air coming to our, you know, our place of home every day and how fast that's going. And so this is what's happening underneath the robotics and machine learning a lot of those Air AWS Service's that are powering that. So it was a fascinating show, Dave and absolutely showed other relationship between Amazon, the parent company. Eight of us, all those cloud service is that helped feed the bigger business. >> Now, June, the Cube covered the D. C. Public sector summit. This is Teresa Carlson's gig. She's the host. Actually, Andy Jassy was there this time. He wasn't there last year when you and I recovering it. And of course, that's all about bringing cloud to public sector, not just federal but all public sector. It includes AH, non profit and education, which talk about in a minute. The big story. There is a jet. I we're talking about tens of billions of dollars going to ah, contract. Oracle, of course, is fighting it. It's going into the courts. I guess they've been a number of reviews or could won't give up its oracle. Amazon clearly is the front runner. Last I read, it was down to AWS and Microsoft, with AWS being the lead contender there. We'll see what happens. I think the decision is coming down this month, July 2019. But it's really again about bringing cloud innovations to public sector. Public sector tends to take things a little bit later than the commercial like. For instance, last year they announced the the VM wear on AWS was available, so you'll see those kinds of things come maybe a year later. But its again. Another big show there 12. 13,000 people there at the D. C Convention center. >> Yeah, Davey, when you talked about the critique of what's happening in Amazon as Amazon goes deeper into all of these verticals How do they help get that information to the user in a way that they need to run their businesses? So my co host for New York City's Cory Quinn was listen to his podcast this morning and he said, That's where Amazon's got dozens of blog's. They've got so many announcements, they haven't done a really good job, something we've seen many companies do. How do I get to you know that business roll and put it in, you know, verbal that they understand, as opposed to just >> Hey, we had 1000 new features >> come out this year and they're awesome. Then you should use everything s o. You know, that's something that, you know the industry as a whole needs to do better at an Amazon. Just in the nature of how fast they're moving is something that they should be able to do a better job. >> And Jennifer is also gonna be in New York City. And one of things he was stressing at reinforce was the marketplace. We had Dave McCann on the just rocketing. I think it was 100,000 census of security subscriptions. I think it was 1,000,000 subscriptions in total so just an amazing ah momentum in the marketplace. But reinforce was all about security. Deep dives on security, chief information, security officers. What came out of that show the big takeaway was was head of AWS is, uh, security. The chief information security officer, Schmidt said. This narrative in the industry that the sky is falling doesn't do anybody any good. Um, it's not productive. We should be more positive. The state of the cloud union is good, like the president of states is State of the Union is strong. Um, having said that, Amazon talks about the shared security model. The practitioners that we talked to said, Yeah, shared model Amazon's going to secure the the infrastructure of the storage, the compute of the database. We are responsible for our end, and it really is on us to make sure that we are secure. So again, back to that point about the pace of innovation that Amazon is putting forth is a challenge for people. AWS imagine is also going down. I think this week what's that you're >> so it's in Seattle and it's you mentioned the public Sector one in D. C, which is government agencies, nonprofits and education. So imagine is a subset of that. My understanding is the education, a nonprofit piece of that from when you and I were in D. C. Last year for the Public sector summit. It's It is impressive how deep Amazon is going into these spaces, the affinity they have. And really, you know how happy the customers are to be able to move fast. So, you know, when you think about nonprofits and think about education, innovation is not the first thing that usually comes to mind because budgets are tight and I don't have enough people. And usually you've got, you know, whatever's left over. But imagine is them. How do we move these forward? How do we You know, we know we need to help transform education. It's so important to train the next generation. So, you know, imagine there are some great stories that come out of that. Jeffrey loves getting those stories, helping us tell those stories through the Cube platform. And so it's the second year we're doing >> Yes, it would be covering that. And then, of course, reinvent will have two sets again that reinvent this year. The Super >> Bowl of our industry, >> right? Sure. Um, something's going on. So unfortunate incidents in Southern California. Big earthquakes, actually. Multiple earthquakes, Right? You had the physical earthquake, and then you had CO I, leonard going to the Clippers. But so I'm interested in sort of poking at this notion of ground stations. So at reinvent last year, Amazon announced on his own ground station, which essentially was ground station is a service. So if I understand it, one of the challenges okay, You launched the satellites, but you still need a ground station to collect the data and then uploaded and analyze it. That's what AWS is is partnering to put in infrastructure that allows you to essentially rent ground station infrastructure. So, you know, they worry about building it in securing it yourself. Because you think about it. It's got to be a secure location. You gotta have fencing. You got a physical security. You got to get the data in. You gotta upload it to the toe. Where we gonna upload it? So Amazon is basically building this service out, saying Don't worry about the ground station piece. Rent that from us, you know, swipe your credit card. Your ground station as a service, and then we'll ingest that data uploaded to the cloud and then apply all of the tooling that we have to allow you to analyze that data. So if you think about the earthquake of devastation, if you don't have a ground station there, you can, in theory, go to AWS and actually spin up a ground station in jest. You know, on the ground, you know, the ground truth as we like to sometimes talk about and actually get satellite imaging and telemetry in that region, you know, this comes into play things like forest fires and all kinds of of natural disaster. >> Dave, even at the remarks show, I attended a session where one of the Amazon partners was talking about not only just getting the satellite data down, but Justus. They have the snowball edge today, which is, you know, for you know, I ot or some remote sites, but some of these satellites are gonna have the compute and storage at in satellite themselves. So if you think about I'm gonna have these geosynchronous satellites. I'm gonna have all this connectivity. And if I could get a gigabit of Ethernet, you know, traffic going to the satellites and I could do the processing at the edge, which is now up in space. I can process that. And you know, that edge that we talked about get to hold another dimension, you know, off off the terra firma to be able to do those kind of analysis. As you said, earthquakes, you know, all the all the climate discussion that's going on, we should be able to have tap into even more. Resource is, and we'll have to rename Cloud if it even goes beyond the Earth. >> And then, um, outpost is the other story that we've been tracking, attracting a lot of stories, but but outpost is starting to ship in beta form. We've seen instances of >> so, so seeing >> it. We just did a little quick right up. >> I mean, Dave, you know, just a ripple went through the >> industry when they showed Hey, here's Iraq and what they're like. This is the exact same rack that we have in the Amazon data centers and why it's a little surprising because we're allowed to see inside the Amazon Data Center. So it's like, Okay, this is what they're computed awaited to 24 in tracking, supposed to a 19 in track. But that line between the public cloud and my on premises environment absolutely is blurring. So everybody wants to see where Amazon's going. They have the big partnership with VM, where Veum, where is already shipping the solution? That is the same software for that Veum wear on AWS in my data center. So, you know, I can have you know, the Dell hardware with the Veum where code or I can have the Amazon hardware with the VM where code coming later this year without post. So that line between public in private is absolutely blurring. And where to my applications live, You know that that future of how fast is eight of us continue to grow? Absolutely. There are applications and data and things that will stay in my own data center and under my control. But that line is definitely blurring. And there's gonna be some re architectures. It's definitely still gonna take a couple of years to sort some of these things out. But we're at some of those inflection points where we'll see some of >> us. So I wrote a post its upon wicked bond kind of analyzing that video, and there's some interesting things that are unique. There's certainly a lot of goodness in there. Not some of the things they talk about are completely unique. Thio, aws. But things like Nitro and their special virtual ization engine and their special chip on Do you want to get a look at that? You take a look at that video and thence to New York City Summit this week. Um, we mentioned some of the innovations that we've seen up to date this year. A lot of talk I'm sure about the marketplace. >> Yeah, I'm wondering if there'll be any ripples, Dave, because the 1/2 of a chick you, too, was supposed to be in New York City. And now it's not, doesn't mean they don't have a strong presence in New York City like London and believe it's somewhere around 12 to 15,000 people. When I went to New York City two years ago was quite impressive. It is a free show, which means if your customer you get in for free. If you're a partner, of course, you're still paying for everything that goes there. But the regional summits are quite impressive and a great way to get in touch with Amazon and all that they're doing. If you don't want to go to the Super Bowl itself, which is, you know, 50,000 plus now in Las Vegas towards the end of the year. >> Yeah, these air, like many reinvents and they're actually quite good. A lot of a lot of practitioner focused on you're gonna you're gonna see that New York City >> did what I always love about every Amazon show I go to. There are customers that are interested learning new things. How can you do better with what I'm doing? But also, how can I change what I'm doing? How can I move forward? So even if it's not adopting the latest and greatest from AWS, the entire ecosystem is going there to meet with those customers and talk about digital transformation? Modern workforce? All of these hot trends definitely play out. Ground zero is the AWS. >> Yeah, and this is by design. As I said before, the pace of innovation is a challenge for people. It's an adoption blocker and so Amazon wants to educate and share the knowledge so that they can get more adoption. OK, stew. Thanks very much. Good luck. This week. Check out silicon angle dot com For all the news, the cube dot net is where the videos will live and watch. Do on John Ferrier and Corey Quinn. Live and check out the cuban dot com for all the research. Thanks for watching Everybody Day, Volonte and Stupid Event. We'll see you next time.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS reinforce Amazon web services. First inaugural conference around Cloud Security. I'm John for your Michael's Day. Volante, our next Katie Jenkins s V P. C. Vice President. See? So, Chief Information Security officer with Liberty Mutual Big Company, Lot of activity insurance. Lot of probably a lot of action on your side. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. So you've been in this job for about a year. Tell us about what's going on in Libya. Means you guys have a large company. 100 plus years old. You're see. So you're in charge. You're running everything. We're gonna security conference. Tell us the reality. What's going on in the real world? >> Yeah, well, this is super exciting. That reinforce, of course, is in Boston. This is Liberty Mutual's hometown assed. You mentioned 107 year old security, not security company >> insurance company. But we're >> doing really cool things in technology and security. Specifically, um, I would say to kind of bring this gathering together. We have a really rich pool of security talent of security and innovators. It really matches up with what what we're doing. So Liberty Mutual has made a very significant commitment to moving to the public cloud for our technology and computing needs. We're in about your three of that journey, maybe 25% of our workload in the public cloud. It's really been a catalyst for not just transforming our technology organisation but transforming the way security does its work in the way security engages with our development community. >> While you're the head honchos, they say there's a C so but you had 20 plus years in cyber security. This is now kind of a new category with reinforced being a branded show over AWS. I see this deserves its own conversation, and industry is a lot of action going on. What is cloud security mean to you? Because this is the focus of this show. It's not just pure clouds, a lot on premise and on cloud interactions with hybrid etcetera. You guys have been doing tons of I t over the generations with Liberty Mutual, but cloud security is the focus. What does that mean? Thio to? You guys have a cyber security standpoint? >> Yeah, um, in a word. Enablement, um, I think that the public cloud offers us, um, really interesting opportunity to reinvent security. Right? So if you think about all of the technologies and processes and many of which were manual over the years, I think we have an opportunity to leverage automation to make our work easier in some ways to to, um, avoid the situation where we have air oversight. Gosh, we encrypted everything, but you know, this set of assets over here, So through using automation and enforcement, it's a new, exciting opportunity to further develop our security capabilities. But also, you know, cloud security at cloud in general has bred a transformation of the way that are practitioners do work through agile. And it means that security has toe no work with our technologists in a different way. >> So you've had a really interesting background. Um you work for a company that does audits. I can infer from that. You've worked for service is company. You work for a technology vendor. You worked as a practitioner. So you've seen it all sides and you know Amazon. It made some comments yesterday that said, Look, the narrative in the security industry has always been fear, fear, fear. And we'd like to put forth forth the narrative. That is about Listen, the state of security is really good and strong. The union is strong and we're gonna work together in a positive message. So my question is, are you an optimist? >> Ah, a reluctant activist. Um, I think the days of having security be something that's fearful, uh are just not not doing us any any any justice in that area. I mean, security is an area of partnership. There's very little of what we do. Insecurity. It's just done by security practitioners. We need asset managers. We need compliance people. We need the privacy team. We need our auditors way. Need procurement. I mean, there's just so many different parties involved in security that if we're just instilling fear and everyone, I think it'll be difficult for us tow. Get that partnership and we need Thio. Empower people, right. We need Thio. Both empower our developers to do their work in a secure manner and we have to empower our whole workforce and our trusted third parties to make good decisions. We're educating them on how to prevent phishing attacks were doing all sorts of kind of culture based initiatives, recognizing that if it's just the security folks doing security, we're gonna have a big gap. >> One of the things that we were discussing a lot of other C. So So we've been talking privately. Off the record in the hallways and private briefings is the common theme of integration as a big part of dealing with ecosystem, either suppliers and or different teams within their different pillars of how they're organized internally and externally, and then also reducing the number of security vendors that they've been buying products from to get some also in house coding, teams working more closely on the use cases that matter. So this has become kind of ah, see, So a conversation where what? What is that criteria? How do you figure out who to have a suppliers who's gonna be around for the long haul? We're gonna be that a partnership for the enablement. So rather than having hundreds of vendors, we want to get him down to a handful. Is that something that you think about or is it a trend that you see it's happening now? >> Uh, it is a trend. I think it starts at how we even procure in select our suppliers. I mean, we're really giving a lot of thought to the area of third party risk management. And do we understand not just the elements of cyber risk and engaging with 1/3 party? But but privacy and continuity kind of risk, too. So it starts there. I don't have a sort of fabricated number in terms of I'm trying to go from X number of vendors down toe Why? But I think that there's a very purposeful thought process that we're undergoing to say, Yeah, we recognize and for certain technologies, we want to have different providers to provide some of that redundancy. Let's be smart about them. Let's make sure we really understand where those overlapping capabilities are because we don't want to be wasteful either. Right >> on the span, the question comes up to around Devil's because what we're seeing is the devil ops and security paradigms kind of coming together in terms of the concepts agility. You could do some prototyping, a hackathon do some things and then ultimately trying to get into production or two different animals. So that enablement of doing innovative things, his agility, that that's been a key theme, a positive theme. And the question is, is there a funding model? Doesn't automatically get security funding. And where's the spin that you're spending going up? So all the monetary spend questions come up. >> How do you >> deal with that ballistically? And how do you think about, you know, spend conversation? >> Yeah, um, >> it's a really interesting one, because, of course, expense >> pressures. I'm not immune to those. But I >> also think that we're in a position where, um, our executive leadership team understands the value of the work that we're doing understands the important to our policy holders. So it's less often a need to justify why we need more spend. It's a demonstration of using that spend responsibly and understanding where we might have an uplift from something that we automated to say. Well, now we have these resource is that could be doing something else. >> There's >> always something else and security, right? So if we're committed to re Skilling and making sure that people are evolving the work that they do in the talents that they have to adjust a different kind of >> no rule of thumb per se. It's more of your management recognizes the criticality of it. Therefore, you could make those calls on your own building built in building, >> project tough questions and making >> responsible decisions. But I think it comes down and knowing your technology, >> so the skills gap, obviously a huge challenge in your industry would talk to somebody else, they said. We just can't find people, so we have to bring him in and train them ourselves. We have the homegrown and take the long view. Amazon talks about the shared responsibility model, and a lot of small companies don't really understand that things misunderstood. Obviously, Liberty Mutual gets it. My question is, as you see Amazon focusing on compute in the storage and data base layer, and you guys have the opportunity to focus on other areas that are your responsibility that shared responsibility model. Have you been able to shift? Resource is how have you handled that you retrain people? Has it freed up, not freed up time to do some of those more strategic things that you want to do maybe respond more quickly. Prioritized, better automate, etcetera, etcetera. Can you talk about that from your perspective? >> Yeah. So the shared responsibility model is, uh, you know, I think that's video unimportant speaking point of this whole ecosystem. At the end of the day, Liberty Mutual. Our duty is to protect policyholder data. It doesn't matter. It's in the cloud. If it's in our data, Southers, we have that duty. It's >> on you. >> So I think a lot about the skills that we will need in the future. So I've referenced sort of vaguely that yet. Compliance area is a particularly interesting area where we have opportunities to able to more easily Bingley produced artifacts on our auditors need to really bring automation to a process that just has a very steep history and being manual in nature. So, yeah, I understand that tomorrow we're not gonna ask everyone to make a big switch and I'll become developers. But way do you know plenty of people to this conference and they are participating in the tracks on how to bring of automation to compliance. And I think that's pretty heavily in training opportunities for people. >> How do you look about the vendor lock in conversation because of cloud. The value proposition certainly shifts in the old model was, Oh, you by event supplier and you're in, You're locked in with database or whatever with Cloud. There's a lot of switching costs, opportunities to move around. But people generally settling in on one main cloud and having this may be a hybrid backup cloud or the cloud is the secondary is the focus of the team's How do you view, um, lock And when you deal with suppliers because you don't want to be stuck with once a fire? If you have the need to be agile, you want to have options. How do you guys think about that? Because being in agility is key for you guys to be successful. Not someone's just dealing with the vendors. >> Um, >> it does come down to balance. We do leverage multiple cloud providers, right? I think that, um, if we're too focused on making sure that we have that portability, and we could quickly move from one to another than we miss an opportunity to kind of deeply leverage. Some of the service is, for example, that the eight of us provides, but we also, you know, you've been around the block of >> your first rodeo. Exactly. >> And I think that it's important to have that perspective and prepare for the future. >> Do you, um, attend board meetings regularly? >> I do. I do for sent out to our board of directors. >> Is that a sort of frequent thing? And once a year, once 1/4 of interested in what the board conversation is like with >> it happens in a couple different context, whether it's specific to sort of an audit readout or sort of a general state of State of Security type A report out. But yeah, we have a really engaged board that asked great questions about our partners, right about things that are more culture base in terms of how we're doing with our anti phishing protection. And we talk about technology architectures, too, in the work that we're doing to make sure that we're being more fine grain in the way that we're authenticating users and devices, no matter where they work in a more secure way. They're they're interested in that. So I feel pretty lucky. Thio both have the opportunity and get deeply. Would >> you say the conversation is more of a strategic nature with the board. Is it more tactic? You just mentioned some tactical items. Is it more metrics driven or a sort of a combination of all three? >> It's a It's a combination right? I think they want to see demonstrated progress against areas that we have self identified Azarias that we'd like to prove improve. But they're also looking to see that I have a vision for where we're going to fully cognizant of the work that we've done in the public cloud and want to understand that the level of trust and they had in their security programme on premise will perpetuate and advance into the cloud. So >> when you look at clouds, security and now security, you guys have you had a perspective on full sides and clouds certainly accelerating involving fast when you find a legacy app that you're working with. We've heard other seasons. We've talked us who have had frank conversations, that look, we're deciding whether we lift and shifted more rebuild on. So there's been some visibility into when it's great to have lifted shifts and when it's great to rebuild. So that's been a conversation that I don't think been fully baked out yet. In the full narrative in the industry, it's one people are talking about. What's your view on when you have a legacy app, you want a lift and shifted or rebuild it? What goes through your mind? What's a conversation like? >> It's a conversation that we have. We have legacy. I won't hide behind behind that. But it's not a conversation in a decision that's just made by technologists, right? I think we have to articulate what the options are, and that has to be a joint decision with our business partners. I think generally I'm not preferring a lift and shift because I think that we are may be overlooking some of the opportunities to make similar security improvements that I see. But when we can get an application that's using our software development pipelines that we have embedded security controls, we have better visibility. We have better enforcement, ensuring what we know that we know what's going into. The cloud has met, you know, a number of our security standards, so to speak, that's a much better position. >> So the destruction of multiple clouds I'm interested in how you handle that you take separate teams is the same team, sort of handling everything, and it's sort of a follow up on that is I'm interested in your relationship with AWS and how that's affected your business. >> Yeah, so the security team does not. Oh, the cloud environment, so to speak. That's that's, Ah Secure Dev Ops team within our infrastructure organization. And they're very close partner of ours, right? So, yes, I do have a resource. Is that our specialist in AWS versus other clouds and others that are identity and access management specialists are able to work on the development of those patterns across different cloud environments. Right. You know, I there's nothing bad that I could say about the relationship with our AWS partners that we felt very supported and understanding what we're trying to do introduce us to new service is and introduced it probably most importantly, introducing us to other customers that have but you know, are a little bit ahead of us in their journey. So weaken, hopefully not repeat, >> not helping you with security pieces. Well, I'm that's something that they with shared responsibility there are there working with you on this securing those workloads as you move. Glad >> be Definitely leverage their expertise. >> And you mentioned that you guys kind of made a decision a few years ago. Toe go all in on the cloud. How has that affected your business? What kind of results have you seen? A zit met expectations. Is it exceeded? You know, I >> mean, is I mentioned we do still have, Ah, a lot of a lot of our technology on premise, but for the use cases that have really seen that rapid acceleration of agile practices allowed teams to develop code so much more quickly. I think the business is generally delighted that their needs are being far more quickly met. Then >> I could ask you, there's a perpetual line in the men's room. It's quite long. So what's it like to be long? And the lady I was going to say? I don't think it is because I would say the proportion of women here is actually lower than even the industry and most conferences that we attend. So what's it like being a woman in this male dominated security business? >> I been in it so on, but I certainly have. You're in a little bit of custom toe, but not so accustomed that I'm not motivated on a daily basis to bring more women in. I think that security just has tremendous opportunities and, you know, certainly the marketing of security professionals is hoody wearing white male kind of persona. Just >> their opportunity. What some of those opportunities for women who are stem science, they might your daughters all stem love public policy, the sociology impact side. The impact that's here is a lot of range of skills. What are some of those that you would inspire someone >> I studied? Math is an undergrad. We didn't have security >> back then and since got a Masters >> degree in cyber security. So that's cool. But, you know, I think a great security professional is a great communicator, a great collaborator. I need technologists. I need developers. I need process experts. I need people that think you know very deeply about assurance type control so way have tried to attract people out of other technology round. >> And it's just not just math and computer science is creativity involved. There's a lot of things that that blend sells all kinds of diversity. >> There is, you know, you think about human psychology, right? We just totally transformed one of the systems that we use for approving for managers to approve the access of their people. Right Past system was ugly. People didn't know how to interact with it. I mean, that user experience expertise that over laid and how we developed our new platform just makes all the difference to make sure that it's actually invaluable process. Now, like I'm so frustrated. I'm just gonna sign off on this because I I give up >> really interesting because you spend a lot of time and effort and money on things that drive revenue. But this drives so much productivity in business value that, you know he's not maybe direct dollars, but clearly there. I have a question. When you recruit people, presumably you tap your network. And it's not just the good old boys network your women. Are you able to successfully find women or young women in particular that you can attract and recruit into your business as security practitioners? They had much success there. >> Yeah, so we definitely are outpacing industry numbers in terms of women and security. We have a long way to go, you know, historically excluded people right? Not just women people of color. I mean, we just have a long ways to go, right. And I think it takes more than sitting back and waiting for a recruiter to bring recruiter to bring me a slate of candidates to say no. I know people. I know people that know people. And I really have toe invest myself and make sure that my leaders know that that's my expectation of them, right? I mean, I think that way feel that diversity of thought, no matter how that diversity is expressed, is really important doing the work. >> Let us know how we could help in Silicon Valley days here in Boston as well. Love help get the word out. So anything you need for muscle now. Okay. Thanks so much for his great insights. Love to have you on the cube again sometime. Thanks. Coming on S V p. C. So at Liberty Mutual here in the cube, extracting the signal, sharing the reality of what's going on in the security equation for cloud security. I'm John for Dave. A lot. Right back after this short break

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next '19. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Moscone Center in San Francisco everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day two of our coverage of Google Cloud Next #GoogleNext19. I'm here with my co-host Stuart Miniman and I'm Dave Vellante, John Furrier is also here. Dominic Preuss is here, he's the Director of Product Management, Storage and Databases at Google. Dominic, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Great, thanks to be here. >> Gosh, 15, 20 years ago there were like three databases and now there's like, I feel like there's 300. It's exploding, all this innovation. You guys made some announcements yesterday, we're gonna get into, but let's start with, I mean, data, we were just talking at the open, is the critical part of any IT transformation, business value, it's at the heart of it. Your job is at the heart of it and it's important to Google. >> Yes. Yeah, you know, Google has a long history of building businesses based on data. We understand the importance of it, we understand how critical it is. And so, really, that ethos is carried over into Google Cloud platform. We think about it very much as a data platform and we have a very strong responsibility to our customers to make sure that we provide the most secure, the most reliable, the most available data platform for their data. And it's a key part of any decision when a customer chooses a hyper cloud vendor. >> So summarize your strategy. You guys had some announcements yesterday really embracing open source. There's certainly been a lot of discussion in the software industry about other cloud service providers who were sort of bogarting open source and not giving back, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How would you characterize Google's strategy with regard to open source, data storage, data management and how do you differentiate from other cloud service providers? >> Yeah, Google has always been the open cloud. We have a long history in our commitment to open source. Whether be Kubernetes, TensorFlow, Angular, Golang. Pick any one of these that we've been contributing heavily back to open source. Google's entire history is built on the success of open source. So we believe very strongly that it's an important part of the success. We also believe that we can take a different approach to open source. We're in a very pivotal point in the open source industry, as these companies are understanding and deciding how to monetize in a hyper cloud world. So we think we can take a fundamentally different approach and be very collaborative and support the open source community without taking advantage or not giving back. >> So, somebody might say, okay, but Google's got its own operational databases, you got analytic databases, relational, non-relational. I guess Google Spanner kind of fits in between those. It was an amazing product. I remember that that first came out, it was making my eyes bleed reading the white paper on it but awesome tech. You certainly own a lot of your own database technology and do a lot of innovation there. So, square that circle with regard to partnerships with open source vendors. >> Yeah, I think you alluded to a little bit earlier there are hundreds of database technologies out there today. And there's really been a proliferation of new technology, specifically databases, for very specific use cases. Whether it be graph or time series, all these other things. As a hyper cloud vendor, we're gonna try to do the most common things that people need. We're gonna do manage MySQL, and PostgreS and SQL Server. But for other databases that people wanna run we want to make sure that those solutions are first class opportunities on the platform. So we've engaged with seven of the top and leading open source companies to make sure that they can provide a managed service on Google Cloud Platform that is first class. What that means is that as a GCP customer I can choose a Google offered service or a third-party offered service and I'm gonna have the same, seamless, frictionless, integrated experience. So I'm gonna get unified billing, I'm gonna get one bill at the end of the day. I'm gonna have unified support, I'm gonna reach out to Google support and they're going to figure out what the problem is, without blaming the third-party or saying that isn't our problem. We take ownership of the issue and we'll go and figure out what's happening to make sure you get an answer. Then thirdly, a unified experience so that the GCP customer can manage that experience, inside a cloud console, just like they would their Google offered serves. >> A fully-managed database as a service essentially. >> Yes, so of the seven vendors, a number of them are databases. But also for Kafka, to manage Kafka or any other solutions that are out there as well. >> All right, so we could spend the whole time talking about databases. I wanna spend a couple minutes talking about the other piece of your business, which is storage. >> Dominic: Absolutely. >> Dave and I have a long history in what we'd call traditional storage. And the dialog over the last few years has been we're actually talking about data more than the storing of information. A few years back, I called cloud the silent killer of the old storage market. Because, you know, I'm not looking at buying a storage array or building something in the cloud. I use storage is one of the many services that I leverage. Can you just give us some of the latest updates as to what's new and interesting in your world. As well as when customers come to Google where does storage fit in that overall discussion? >> I think that the amazing opportunity that we see for for large enterprises right now is today, a lot of that data that they have in their company are in silos. It's not properly documented, they don't necessarily know where it is or who owns it or the data lineage. When we pick all that date up across the enterprise and bring it in to Google Cloud Platform, what's so great about is regardless of what storage solution you choose to put your data in it's in a centralized place. It's all integrated, then you can really start to understand what data you have, how do I do connections across it? How do I try to drive value by correlating it? For us, we're trying to make sure that whatever data comes across, customers can choose whatever storage solution they want. Whichever is most appropriate for their workload. Then once the data's in the platform we help them take advantage of it. We are very proud of the fact that when you bring data into object storage, we have a single unified API. There's only one product to use. If you would have really cold data, or really fast data, you don't have to wait hours to get the data, it's all available within milliseconds. Now we're really excited that we announced today is a new storage class. So, in Google Cloud Storage, which is our object storage product, we're now gonna have a very cold, archival storage option, that's going to start at $0.12 per gigabyte, per month. We think that that's really going to change the game in terms of customers that are trying to retire their old tape backup systems or are really looking for the most cost efficient, long term storage option for their data. >> The other thing that we've heard a lot about this week is that hybrid and multi-cloud environment. Google laid out a lot of the partnerships. I think you had VMware up on stage. You had Cisco up on stage, I see Nutanix is here. How does that storage, the hybrid multi-cloud, fit together for your world. >> I think the way that we view hybrid is that every customer, at some point, is hybrid. Like, no one ever picks up all their data on day one and on day two, it's on the cloud. It's gonna be a journey of bringing that data across. So, it's always going to be hybrid for that period of time. So for us, it's making sure that all of our storage solutions, we support open standards. So if you're using an an S3 compliant storage solution on-premise, you can use Google Cloud Storage with our S3 compatible API. If you are doing block, we work with all the large vendors, whether be NetApp or EMC or any of the other vendors you're used to having on-premise, making sure we can support those. I'm personally very excited about the work that we've done with NetApp around NetApp cloud buying for Google Cloud Platform. If you're a NetApp shop and you've been leveraging that technology and you're really comfortable and really like it on-premise, we make it really easy to bring that data to the cloud and have the same exact experience. You get all the the wonderful features that NetApp offers you on-premise in a cloud native service where you're paying on a consumption based service. So, it really takes, kind of, the decision away for the customers. You like NetApp on-premise but you want cloud native features and pricing? Great, we'll give you NetApp in the cloud. It really makes it to be an easy transition. So, for us it's making sure that we're engaged and that we have a story with all the storage vendors that you used to using on-premise today. >> Let me ask you a question, about go back, to the very cold, ice cold storage. You said $0.12 per gigabyte per month, which is kinda in between your other two major competitors. What was your thinking on the pricing strategy there? >> Yeah, basically everything we do is based on customer demand. So after talking to a bunch of customers, understanding the workloads, understanding the cost structure that they need, we think that that's the right price to meet all of those needs and allow us to basically compete for all the deals. We think that that's a really great price-point for our customers. And it really unlocks all those workloads for the cloud. >> It's dirt cheap, it's easy to store and then it takes a while to get it back, right, that's the concept? >> No, it is not at all. We are very different than other storage vendors or other public cloud offerings. When you drop your data into our system, basically, the trade up that you're making is saying, I will give you a cheaper price in exchange for agreeing to leave the data in the platform, for a longer time. So, basically you're making a time-based commitment to us, at which point we're giving you a cheaper price. But, what's fundamentally different about Google Cloud Storage, is that regardless of which storage class you use, everything is available within milliseconds. You don't have to wait hours or any amount of time to be able to get that data. It's all available to you. So, this is really important, if you have long-term archival data and then, let's say, that you got a compliance request or regulatory requests and you need to analyze all the data and get to all your data, you're not waiting hours to get access to that data. We're actually giving you, within milliseconds, giving you access to that data, so that you can get the answers you need. >> And the quid pro quo is I commit to storing it there for some period of time, is that you said? >> Correct. So, we have four storage classes. We have our Standard, our Nearline, our Coldline and this new Archival. Each of them has a lower price point, in exchange for a longer, committed time the you'll leave the product. >> That's cool. I think that adds real business value there. So, obviously, it's not sitting on tape somewhere. >> We have a number of solutions for how we store the data. For us, it's indifferent, how we store the data. It's all about how long you're willing to tell us it'll be there and that allows us to plan for those resources long term. >> That's a great story. Now, you also have this pay-as-you-go pricing tiers, can you talk about that a little bit? >> For which, for Google Cloud Storage? >> Dave: Yes. >> Yeah, everything is pay-as-you-go and so basically you write data to us and there's a charge for the operations you do and then you charge for however long you leave the data in the system. So, if you're using our Standard class, you're just paying our standard price. You can either use Regional or Multi-Regional, depending on the disaster recovery and the durability and availability requirements that you have. Then you're just paying us for that for however long you leave the data in the system. Once you delete it, you stop paying. >> So it must be, I'm not sure what kind of customer discussions are going on in terms of storage optionality. It used to be just, okay, I got block and I got file, but now you've got all different kind of. You just mentioned several different tiers of performance. What's the customer conversation like, specifically in terms of optionality and what are they asking you to deliver? >> I think within the storage space, there's really three things, there's object, block and file. So, on the object side, or on the block side we have our persistence product. Customers are asking for better price performance, more performance, more IOPS, more throughput. We're continuing to deliver a higher-performance, block device for them and that's going very, very well. For those that need file, we have our first-party service, which is Cloud Filestore, which is our manage NFS. So if you need managed NFS, we can provide that for you at a really low price point. We also partner with, you mentioned Elastifile earlier. We partner with NetApp, we're partnering with EMC. So all those options are also available for file. Then on the object side, if you can accept the object API, it's not POSIX-compliant it's a very different model. If your workloads can support that model then we give you a bunch of options with the Object Model API. >> So, data management is another hot topic and it means a lot of things to a lot of people. You hear the backup guys talking about data management. The database guys talk about data management. What is data management to Google and what your philosophy and strategy there? >> I think for us, again, I spend a lot of time making sure that the solutions are unified and consistent across. So, for us, the idea is that if you bring data into the platform, you're gonna get a consistent experience. So you're gonna have consistent backup options you're gonna have consistent pricing models. Everything should be very similar across the various products So, number one, we're just making sure that it's not confusing by making everything very simple and very consistent. Then over time, we're providing additional features that help you manage that. I'm really excited about all the work we're doing on the security side. So, you heard Orr's talk about access transparency and access approvals right. So basically, we can have a unified way to know whether or not anyone, either Google or if a third-party offer, a third-party request has come in about if we're having to access the data for any reason. So we're giving you full transparency as to what's going on with your data. And that's across the data platform. That's not on a per-product basis. We can basically layer in all these amazing security features on top of your data. The way that we view our business is that we are stewards of your data. You've given us your data and asked us to take care of it, right, don't lose it. Give it back to me when I want it and let me know when anything's happening to it. We take that very seriously and we see all the things we're able to bring to bear on the security side, to really help us be good stewards of that data. >> The other thing you said is I get those access logs in near real time, which is, again, nuanced but it's very important. Dominic, great story, really. I think clear thinking and you, obviously, delivered some value for the customers there. So thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and sharing that with us. >> Absolutely, happy to be here. >> All right, keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest right after this. You're watching theCUBE live from Google Cloud Next from Moscone. Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman, John Furrier. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)