>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas. Back at events re Mars, Amazon re Mars. I'm your host, John fur with the cube. Mars stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. It's great event brings together a lot of the industrial space machine learning and all the new changes in scaling up from going on the moon to, you know, doing great machine learning. And we've got two great guests here with kinda called lunar outpost, Justin Sears, CEO, Lauren, man. He's the co-founder and chief strategy officer lunar outpost. They're right next to us, watching their booth. Love the name, gentlemen. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. >>All right. So lunar outpost, I get the clues here. Tell us what you guys do. Start with that. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, we're a company based outta Colorado that has two missions headed to the moon over the course of the next 24 months. We're currently operating on Mars, which forest will tell you a little bit more about here in a second. And we're really pushing out towards expanding the infrastructure on the lunar surface. And then we're gonna utilize that to provide sustainable access to other planetary bodies. >>All right, far as teeing it up for you. Go, how cool is this? We don't, we wanna use every minute. What's the lunar surface look like? What's the infrastructure roads. You gonna pave it down. You what's going on. Well, >>Where we're going. No one has ever been. So, um, our first mission is going to Shackleton connecting Ridge on the south pole, the moon, and that's ripe to add infrastructure such as landing pads and other things. But our first Rover will be primarily driving across the surface, uh, exploring, uh, what the material looks like, prospecting for resources and testing new technologies. >>And you have a lot of technology involved. You're getting data in, you're just doing surveillance. What's the tech involved there. >>Yeah. So the primary technology that we're demonstrating is a 4g network for NOK. Um, we're providing them mobility services, which is basically like the old Verizon commercial. Can you hear me now? Uh, where the Rover drives farther and farther away from the Lander to test their signal strength, and then we're gonna have some other payloads ride sharing along with us for the ride >>Reminds me the old days of wifi. We used to call it war drive and you go around and try to find someone's wifi hotspot <laugh> inside the thing, but no, this is kind of cool. It brings up the whole thing. Now on lunar outpost, how big is the company? What's how what's to some of the stats heres some of the stats. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, 58 people, uh, growing quite quickly on track to double. So any of you watching, you want a job, please apply <laugh>. But with lunar outpost, uh, very similar to how launch companies provide people access to different parts of space. Lunar outpost provides people access to different spots on planetary bodies, whether it's the moon, Mars or beyond. So that's really where we're starting. >>So it's kinda like a managed service for all kinds of space utilities. If you kind of think about it, you're gonna provide services. Yeah, >>Absolutely. Yeah. It, it's definitely starting there and, and we're pushing towards building that infrastructure and that long term vision of utilizing space resources. But I can talk about that a little bit more here in a sec. >>Let's get into that. Let's talk about Mars first. You guys said what's going on with >>Mars. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So right now, uh, lunar outpost is part of the science team for, uh, Moxi, which is an instrument on the perseverance Rover. Yeah. Moxi is the first demonstration of space resource utilization on another planet. And what space resource utilization is basically taking resources on another planet, turning them into something useful. What Moxi does is it takes the CO2 from the atmosphere of Mars and atmosphere of Mars is mostly CO2 and it uses a process called solid oxide electrolysis to basically strip oxygen off of that CO2 to produce oh two and carbon monoxide. >>So it's what you need to self sustain on the surface. >>Exactly. It's not just sustaining, um, the astronauts, but also for producing oxygen for propellant. So it'll actually produce, um, it's a, it's a technology that'll produce a propellant for return rockets, um, to come back for Mars. So >>This is the real wildcard and all this, this, this exploration is how fast can the discoveries invent the new science to provide the life and the habitat on the surface. And that seems to be the real focus in the, in the conversations I heard on the keynote as well, get the infrastructure up so you can kinda land and, and we'll pull back and forth. Um, where are we on progress? You guys have the peg from one zero to 10, 10 being we're going, my grandmother's going, everyone's going to zero. Nothing's moving. >>We're making pretty rapid >>Progress. A three six, >>You know, I'll, I'll put it on an eight, John an >>Eight, I'll put it on >>Eight. This is why the mission force was just talking about that's launching within the next 12 months. This is no longer 10 years out. This is no longer 20 years away, 12 months. And then we have mission two shortly after, and that's just the beginning. We have over a dozen Landers that are headed to line surface this decade alone and heavy lift Landers and launchers, uh, start going to the moon and coming back by 2025. >>So, and you guys are from Colorado. You mentioned before you came on camera, right with the swap offices. So you got some space in Colorado, then the rovers to move around. You get, you get weird looks when people drive by and see the space gear. >>Oh yeah, definitely. So we have, um, you know, we have our facility in golden and our Nevada Colorado, and we'll take the vehicles out for strolls and you'll see construction workers, building stuff, and looking over and saying, what's >>Good place to work too. So you're, you're hiring great. You're doubling on the business model side. I can see a lot of demand. It's cheaper to launch stuff now in space. Is there becoming any rules of engagement relative to space? I don't wanna say verified, but like, you know, yet somehow get to the point where, I mean, I could launch a satellite, I could launch something for a couple hundred grand that might interfere with something legitimate. Do you see that on the radar because you guys are having ease of use so smaller, faster, cheaper to get out there. Now you gotta refine the infrastructure, get the services going. Is there threats from just random launches? >>It's a, it's a really interesting question. I mean, current state of the art people who have put rovers on other planetary bodies, you're talking like $3 billion, uh, for the March perseverance Rover. So historically there hasn't been that threat, but when you start talking about lowering the cost and the access to some of these different locations, I do think we'll get to the point where there might be folks that interfere with large scale operations. And that's something that's not very well defined in international law and something you won't really probably get any of the major space powers to agree to. So it's gonna be up to commercial companies to operate responsibly so we can make that space sustainable. And if there is a bad actor, I think it they'll weed themselves out over time. >>Yeah. It's gonna be of self govern, I think in the short term. Good point. Yeah. What about the technology? Where are we in the technology? What are some of the big, uh, challenges that we're overcoming now and what's that next 20 M stare in terms of the next milestone? Yeah, a tech perspective. >>Yeah. So the big technology technological hurdle that has been identified by many is the ability to survive the LUN night. Um, it gets exceptionally cold, uh, when the sun on the moon and that happens every 14 days for another, for, you know, for 14 days. So these long, cold lunar nights, uh, can destroy circuit boards and batteries and different components. So lunar outpost has invested in developing thermal technologies to overcome this, um, both in our offices, in the United States, but we also have opened a new office in, uh, Luxembourg in Europe. That's focusing specifically on thermal technologies to survive the lunar night, not just for rovers, but all sorts of space assets. >>Yeah. Huge. That's a hardware, you know, five, nine kind of like meantime between failure conversation, right. >><laugh> and it's, it gets fun, right? Because you talk five nines and it's such like, uh, you know, ingrained part of the aerospace community. But what we're pitching is we can send a dozen rovers for the cost of one of these historical rovers. So even if 25% of 'em fail, you still have eight rovers for the cost of one of the old rovers. And that's just the, economy's a scale. >>I saw James Hamilton here walking around. He's one of the legendary Amazonians who built out the data center. You might come by the cube. That's just like what they did with servers. Hey, if one breaks throw it away. Yeah. Why buy the big mainframe? Yeah. That's the new model. All right. So now about, uh, space space, that's a not space space, but like room to move around when you start getting some of these habitats going, um, how does space factor into the size of the location? Um, cuz you got the, to live there, solve some of the thermal problems. How do I live on space? I gotta have, you know, how many people gonna be there? What's your forecast? You think from a mission standpoint where there'll be dozens of people or is it still gonna be small teams? >>Yeah. >>Uh, what's that look like? >>I mean you >>Can guess it's okay. >>I mean, my vision's thousands of people. Yep. Uh, living and working in space because it's gonna be, especially the moon I think is a destination that's gonna grow, uh, for tourism. There's an insane drive from people to go visit a new destination. And the moon is one of the most unique experiences you could imagine. Yep. Um, in the near term for Artis, we're gonna start by supporting the Artis astronauts, which are gonna be small crews of astronauts. Um, you know, two to six in the near term. >>And to answer your question, uh, you know, in a different way, the habitat that we're actually gonna build, it's gonna take dozens of these robotic systems to build and maintain over time. And when we're actually talking, timelines, force talks, thousands of people living and working in space, I think that's gonna happen within the next 10 to 15 years. The first few folks are gonna be on the moon by 2025. And we're pushing towards having dozens of people living and working in space and by 2030. >>Yeah. I think it's an awesome goal. And I think it's doable question I'll have for you is the role of software in all this. I had a conversation with, uh, space nerd and we were talking and, and I said open sources everywhere now in the software. Yeah. How do you repair in space? Does you know, you don't want to have a firmware be down. So send down backhoe back to the United States. The us, wait a minute, it's the planet. I gotta go back to earth. Yeah. To get apart. So how does break fix work in space? How, how do you guys see that problem? >>So this one's actually quite fun. I mean, currently we don't have astronauts that can pick up a or change a tire. Uh, so you have to make robots that are really reliable, right. That can continuously operate for years at a time. But when you're talking about long-term repairs, there's some really cool ideas and concepts about standardization of some of these parts, you know, just like Lu knots on your car, right? Yeah. If everyone has the same Lu knots on their wheel, great. Now I can go change it out. I can switch off different parts that are available on the line surface. So I think we're moving towards, uh, that in the long >>Term you guys got a great company. Love the mission. Final question for both of you is I noticed that there's a huge community development around Mars, living on Mars, living on the moon. I mean, there's not a chat group that clubhouse app used, used to be around just kind of dying. But now it's when the Twitter spaces Reddit, you name it, there's a fanatical fan base that loves to talk about an engineer and kind of a collective intelligence, not, may not be official engineering, but they just love to talk about it. So there's a huge fan base for space. How does someone get involved if they really want to dive in and then how do you nurture that audience? How does that, is it developing? What's your take on this whole movement? It's it's beyond just being interested. It's it's become, I won't say cult-like but it's been, there's very, a lot of people in young people interested in space. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. There's, there's a whole, lots of places to get involved. There's, you know, societies, right? Like the Mar society there's technical committees, um, there's, you know, even potentially learning about these, you know, taking a space, resources master program and getting into the field and, and joining the company. So, um, we really, uh, thrive on that energy from the community and it really helps press us forward. And we hope to, uh, have a way to take everyone with us on the mission. And so stay tuned, follow our website. We'll be announcing some of that stuff soon. >>Awesome. And just one last, uh, quick pitch for you, John, I'll leave you with one thought. There are two things that space has an infinite amount of the first is power and the second is resources. And if we can find a way to access either of those, we can fundamentally change the way humanity operates. Yeah. So when you're talking about living on Mars long term, we're gonna need to access the resource from Mars. And then long term, once we get the transportation infrastructure in place, we can start bringing those resources back here to earth. So of course there are gonna be those people that sign up for that first mission out to Mars with SpaceX. But, uh, we'd love for folks to join on with us at lunar outpost and be a part of that kind of next leap accessing those resources. >>I love the mission, as always said, once in the cube, everything in star Trek will be invented someday. <laugh>, we're almost there except for the, the, uh, the transporter room. We don't have that done yet, but almost soon be there. All right. Well, thanks for coming. I, I really appreciate Justin for us for sharing. Great story. Final minute. Give a plug for the company. What are you guys looking for? You said hiring. Yep. Anything else you'd like to share? Put a plug in for lunar outpost. >>Absolutely. So we're hiring across the board, aerospace engineering, robotics engineering, sales marketing. Doesn't really matter. Uh, we're doubling as a company currently around 58 people, as we said, and we're looking for the top people that want to make an impact in aerospace. This is truly a unique moment. First time we've ever had continuous reliable operations. First time NASA is pushing really hard on the public private partnerships for commercial companies like ours to go out and create this sustainable presence on the moon. So whether you wanna work with us, our partner with us, we'd be excited to talk to you and, uh, yeah. Please contact us at info. Lunar outpost.com. >>We'll certainly follow up. Thanks for coming. I love the mission we're behind you and everyone else is too. You can see the energy it's gonna happen. It's the cube coverage from re Mars new actions happening in space on the ground, in the, on the moon you name it's happening right here in Vegas. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>We're here live in Las Vegas with a cubes coverage of Amazon re Mars. It's a reinvent re Mars reinforced. The big three shows called the res. This is Mars machine learning, automation, robotic and space. It's a program about the future it and the future innovation around industrial cloud scale climate change the moon, a lot of great topics, really connecting all the dots together here in Las Vegas with Amazon re Mars I'm John ER, host of the cube. Our first guest is Howard Hughes program manager, necess Ryan program. Howard is involved with all the action and space and the moon project, which we'll get into Howard. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Well, Hey, thanks for having me here this morning. Appreciate you guys inviting me here. >>So this show is not obvious to the normal tech observer, the insiders in, in the industry. It's the confluence of a lot of things coming together. It's gonna be obvious very soon because the stuff they're showing here is pretty impressive. It's motivating, it's positive and it's a force for change in good. All of it coming together, space, machine learning, robotics, industrial, you have one of the coolest areas, the space what's going on with your Orion program. You guys got the big moon project statement to >>Explain. Well, let me tell you, I'll start with Orion. Orion is our next human space craft. That's gonna take humans beyond low earth orbit and we're part of the broader Artis campaign. So Artis is our plan, our NASA plan to return the first person of color, first woman, back to the moon. And we're very excited to do that. We have several missions that I could talk to you about starting with in a very few months, Artis one. So Artis one is going to fly on the space launch system, which is gonna be the biggest rocket we call the mega rocket has been built since the Saturn five on top of the SLS is the Ryan spacecraft and that Ryan spacecraft houses four crew members for up to 21 days in deep space. And we'll have an unru test in a few months launch on the S SLS. And Orion's gonna go around the moon for up to 40 days on Aus two, we will have the first test of the humans on board Orion. So four people will fly on Aus two. We will also circle the moon for about 10 to 12 days. And then our third mission will be our landing. >>So the moon is back in play, obviously it's close to the earth. So it's a short flight, relatively speaking the Mars a little bit further out. I'll see everyone as know what's going on in Mars. A lot of people are interested in Mars. Moon's closer. Yes, but there's also new things going on around discovery. Can you share the big story around why the moon what's? Why is the moon so important and why is everyone so excited about it? >>Yeah. You, you know, you know, coming to this conference and talking about sustainability, you know, I mean it is exploration is I think ingrained in our DNA, but it's more than just exploration is about, you know, projecting human presence beyond our earth. And these are the stepping stones. You know, we talk about Amazon talked about day one, and I think about, we are on those very early days where we're building the infrastructure Ryans of transportation infrastructure, and we're gonna build infrastructure on the moon to learn how to live on a surface and how to utilize the assets. And then that's very important because you know, it's very expensive to carry fuel, to carry water and all the necessities that you need to survive as a human being and outer space. If you can generate that on the surface or on the planet you go to, and this is a perfect way to do it because it's very in your backyard, as I told you earlier. So for future mission, when you want to go to Mars, you're nine months out, you really wanna make sure you have the technologies and you're able to utilize those technologies robustly and in a sustainable way. >>Yeah, we were talking before you came on, came camera camping in your backyard is a good practice round. Before you go out into the, to the wilderness, this is kind of what's going on here, but there's also the discovery angle. I mean, I just see so much science going on there. So if you can get to the moon, get a base camp there, get set up, then things could come out of that. What are some of the things that you guys are talking about that you see as possible exploration upside? >>Yeah. Well, several things. One is power generation recently. We just released some contracts that from vision power, so long, sustainable power capability is very, very important. You know, the other technologies that you need utilize is regenerative, you know, air, water, things that are, you need for that, but then there's a science aspect of it, which is, you know, we're going to the south pole where we think there's a lot of water potentially, or, or available water that we can extract and utilize that to generate fuel. So liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen is one of the areas that are very interesting. And of course, lunar minerals are very exciting, very interesting to bring and, and, and be able to mine potentially in the future, depending on what is there. >>Well, a lot of cool stuff happening. What's your take on this show here, obviously NASA's reputation as innovators and deep technologists, you know, big moonshot missions, pun intended here. You got a lot of other explorations. What's this show bring together, share your perspective because I think the story here to me is you got walkout retail, like the Amazon technology, you got Watson dynamics, the dog, everyone loves that's walking on. Then you got supply chain, robotics, machine learning, and space. It all points to one thing, innovation around industrial. I think what, what, what's your, what's your, what's your take? >>You know, I think one of the things is, is, you know, normally we are innovating in a, in our aerospace industry. You know, I think there's so much to learn from innovation across all these areas you described and trying to pull some of that into the spacecraft. You know, when, when you're a human being sitting in spacecraft is more than just flying the spacecraft. You know, you have interaction with displays, you have a lot of technologies that you normally would want to interact with on the ground that you could apply in space to help you and make your tasks easier. And I think those are things that are really important as we look across, you know, the whole entire innovative infrastructure that I see here in this show, how can we extract some that and apply it in the space program? I think there is a very significant leveraging that you could do off of that. >>What are some of the look at what's going on in donors? What are some of the cool people who aren't following the day to day? Anything? >>Well, well, certainly, you know, the Artman's mission Artis campaign is one of the, the, the coolest things I could think of. That's why I came into, you know, I think wrapping around that where we are not only just going to a destination, but we're exploring, and we're trying to establish a very clear, long term presence that will allow us to engage. What I think is the next step, which is science, you know, and science and the, and the things that can, can come out of that in terms of scientific discoveries. And I think the cool, coolest thing would be, Hey, could we take the things that we are in the labs and the innovation relative to power generation, relative to energy development of energy technologies, robotics, to utilize, to help explore the surface. And of course the science that comes out of just naturally, when you go somewhere, you don't know what to expect. And I think that's what the exciting thing. And for NASA, we're putting a program, an infrastructure around that. I think that's really exciting. Of course, the other parts of NASA is science. Yeah. And so the partnering those two pieces together to accomplish a very important mission for everybody on planet earth is, is really important. >>And also it's a curiosity. People are being curious about what's going on now in space, cuz the costs are down and you got universities here and you got the, of robotics and industrial. This is gonna provide a, a new ground for education, younger, younger generation coming up. What would you share to teachers and potential students, people who wanna learn what's different about now than the old generation and what's the same, what what's the same and what's new. What's how does someone get their arms around this, their mind around it? Where can they jump in? This is gonna open up the aperture for, for, for talent. I mean with all the technology, it's not one dimensional. >>Yeah. I think what is still true is core sciences, math, you know, engineering, the hard science, chemistry, biology. I mean, I think those are really also very important, but what we're we're getting today is the amount of collaboration we're able to do against organically. And I think the innovation that's driven by a lot of this collaboration where you have these tools and your ability to engage and then you're able to, to get, I would say the best out of people in lots of different areas. And that's what I think one of the things we're learning at NASA is, you know, we have a broad spectrum of people that come to work for us and we're pulling that. And now we're coming to these kinds of things where we're kind getting even more innovation ideas and partnerships so that we are not just off on our own thinking about the problem we're branching out and allowing a lot of other people to help us solve the problems that >>We need. You know, I've noticed with space force too. I had the same kind of conversations around those with those guys as well. Collaboration and public private partnerships are huge. You've seen a lot more kind of cross pollination of funding, col technology software. I mean, how do you do break, fix and space at software, right? So you gotta have, I mean, it's gotta work. So you got security challenges. Yeah. This is a new frontier. It is the cybersecurity, the usability, the operationalizing for humans, not just, you know, put atypical, you know, scientists and, and, and astronauts who are, you know, in peak shape, we're talking about humans. Yeah. What's the big problem to solve? Is it security? Is it, what, what would you say the big challenges >>Are? Yeah. You know, I think information and access to information and how we interact with information is probably our biggest challenge because we have very limited space in terms of not only mass, but just volume. Yeah. You know, you want to reserve the space for the people and they, they need to, you know, you want maximize your space that you're having in spacecraft. And so I think having access to information, being able to, to utilize information and quickly access systems so you can solve problems cuz you don't know when you're in deep space, you're several months out to Mars, what problems you might encounter and what kind of systems and access to information you need to help you solve the problems. You know, both, both, both from a just unplanned kind of contingencies or even planned contingencies where you wanna make sure you have that information to do it. So information is gonna be very vital as we go out into deep >>Space and the infrastructure's changed. How has the infrastructure changed in terms of support services? I mean see, in the United States, just the growth of a aerospace you mentioned earlier is, is just phenomenal. You've got smaller, faster, cheaper equipment density, it solved the technology. Where's there gonna be the, the big game changing move movement. Where do you see it go? Is it AIST three? It kind of kicks in AIST ones, obviously the first one unmanned one. But where do in your mind, do you see key milestones that are gonna be super important to >>Watch? I think, I think, I think, you know, we've already, you know, pushed the boundaries of what we, we are, you know, in terms of applying our aerospace technologies for AIST one and certainly two, we've got those in, in work already. And so we've got that those vehicles already in work and built yeah. One already at the, at the Kennedy space center ready for launch, but starting with three because you have a lot more interaction, you gotta take the crew down with a Lander, a human landing system. You gotta build rovers. You've gotta build a, a capability which they could explore. So starting with three and then four we're building the gateway gateways orbiting platform around the moon. So for all future missions after Rist three, we're gonna take Aion to the gateway. The crew gets into the orbiting platform. They get on a human landing system and they go down. >>So all that interaction, all that infrastructure and all the support equipment you need, not only in the orbit of the moon, but also down the ground is gonna drive a lot of innovation. You're gonna have to realize, oh, Hey, I needed this. Now I need to figure out how to get something there. You know? And, and how much of the robotics and how much AI you need will be very interesting because you'll need these assistance to help you do your daily routine or lessen your daily routine. So you can focus on the science and you can focus on doing the advancing those technologies that you're gonna >>Need. And you gotta have the infrastructure. It's like a road. Yeah. You know, you wanna go pop down to the moon, you just pop down, it's already built. It's ready for you. Yep. Come back up. So just ease of use from a deployment standpoint is, >>And, and the infrastructure, the things that you're gonna need, you know, what is a have gonna look like? What are you gonna need in a habitat? You know, are, are you gonna be able to have the power that you're gonna have? How many station power stations are you gonna need? Right. So all these things are gonna be really, things are gonna be driven by what you need to do the mission. And that drives, I think a lot of innovation, you know, it's very much like the end goal. What are you trying to solve? And then you go, okay, here's what I need to solve to build things, to solve that >>Problem. There's so many things involved in the mission. I can imagine. Safety's huge. Number one, gotta be up safe. Yep. Space is dangerous game. Yes. Yeah. It's not pleasant there. Not for the faint of heart. As you say, >>It's not for the faint >>Heart. That's correct. What's the big safety concerns obviously besides blowing up and oxygen and water and the basic needs. >>I think, I think, you know, I think you, you said it very well, you know, it is not for the faint of heart. We try to minimize risk. You know, asset is one of the big, you're sitting under 8.8 million pounds of thrust on the launch vehicle. So it is going very fast and you're flying and you, and, and it's it's light cuz we got solid rocket motors too as well. Once they're lit. They're lit. Yeah. So we have a escape system on Orion that allows a crew to be safe. And of course we build in redundancy. That's the other thing I think that will drive innovation. You know, you build redundancy in the system, but you also think about the kind of issues that you would run into potentially from a safety perspective, you know, how you gonna get outta situation if you get hit by a meteor, right? Right. You, you, you are going through the band, Ellen belt, you have radiation. So you know, some of these things that are harsh on your vehicle and on, on the human side of this shop too. And so when you have to do these things, you have to think about what are you gonna protect for and how do you go protect for that? And we have to find innovations for >>That. Yeah. And it's also gonna be a really exciting air for engineering work. And you mentioned the data, data's huge simulations, running scenarios. This is where the AI comes in. And that seems to me where the dots connect from me when you start thinking about how to have, how to run those simulations, to identify what's possible. >>I think that's a great point, you know, because we have all this computing capability and because we can run simulations and because we can collect data, we have terabytes of data, but it's very challenging for humans to analyze at that level. So AI is one of the things we're looking at, which is trying to systematically have a process by which data is called through so that the engineering mind is only looking at the things and focus on things that are problematic. So we repeat tests, every flight, you don't have to look at all the terabytes of data of each test. You have a computer AI do that. And you allow yourself to look at just the pieces that don't look right, have anomalies in the data. Then you're going to do that digging, right. That's where the power of those kinds of technologies can really help us because we have that capability to do a lot of computing. >>And I think that's why this show to me is important because it, it, it shows for the first time, at least from my coverage of the industry where technology's not the bottleneck anymore, it's human mind. And we wanna live in a peaceful world with climate. We wanna have the earth around for a while. So climate change was a huge topic yesterday and how the force for good, what could come outta the moon shots is to, is to help for earth. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. Better understanding there all good. What's your take on the show. If you had to summarize this show, re Mars from the NASA perspective. So you, the essence space, what's the what's going on here? What's the big, big story. >>Yeah. For, for me, I think it's eyeopening in terms of how much innovation is happening across a spectrum of areas. And I look at various things like bossy, scientific robots that the dog that's walking around. I mean to think, you know, people are applying it in different ways and then those applications in a lot of ways are very similar to what we need for exploration going forward. And how do you apply some of these technologies to the space program and how do we leverage that? How do we leverage that innovation and how we take the innovations already happening organically for other reasons and how would those help us solve those problems that we're gonna encounter going forward as we try to live on another planet? >>Well, congratulations on a great assignment. You got a great job. I do super fun. I love being an observer and I love space. Love how at the innovations there. And plus space space is cool. I mean, how many millions of live views do you see? Everyone's stopping work to watch SpaceX land and NASA do their work. It's just, it's bringing back the tech vibe. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's just, things are going you a good tailwind. Yeah. >>Congratulations. Thank you very much. >>Appreciate it on the, okay. This cube coverage. I'm John fur. You're here for the cube here. Live in Las Vegas back at reinvent reinforce re Mars, the reser coverage here at re Mars. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Okay. We're now going to go into the customer panel, and we'd like to welcome Angelo Fausti, who's a software engineer at the Vera C. Rubin Observatory, and Caleb Maclachlan who's senior spacecraft operations software engineer at Loft Orbital. Guys, thanks for joining us. You don't want to miss folks this interview. Caleb, let's start with you. You work for an extremely cool company, you're launching satellites into space. Of course doing that is highly complex and not a cheap endeavor. Tell us about Loft Orbital and what you guys do to attack that problem. >> Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having me here by the way. So Loft Orbital is a company that's a series B startup now, who, and our mission basically is to provide rapid access to space for all kinds of customers. Historically, if you want to fly something in space, do something in space, it's extremely expensive. You need to book a launch, build a bus, hire a team to operate it, have a big software teams, and then eventually worry about, a bunch like, just a lot of very specialized engineering. And what we're trying to do is change that from a super specialized problem that has an extremely high barrier of access, to a infrastructure problem. So that it's almost as simple as deploying a VM in AWS or GCP is getting your programs, your mission deployed on orbit with access to different sensors, cameras, radios, stuff like that. So, that's kind of our mission and just to give a really brief example of the kind of customer that we can serve. There's a really cool company called Totum Labs, who is working on building IoT cons, an IoT constellation for, internet of things, basically being able to get telemetry from all over the world. They're the first company to demonstrate indoor IoT which means you have this little modem inside a container that container that you track from anywhere in the world as it's going across the ocean. So, and it's really little, and they've been able to stay a small startup that's focused on their product, which is the, that super crazy, complicated, cool radio, while we handle the whole space segment for them, which just, you know, before Loft was really impossible. So that's our mission is providing space infrastructure as a service. We are kind of groundbreaking in this area and we're serving a huge variety of customers with all kinds of different missions, and obviously generating a ton of data in space that we've got to handle. >> Yeah. So amazing Caleb, what you guys do. Now, I know you were lured to the skies very early in your career, but how did you kind of land in this business? >> Yeah, so, I guess just a little bit about me. For some people, they don't necessarily know what they want to do like earlier in their life. For me I was five years old and I knew I want to be in the space industry. So, I started in the Air Force, but have stayed in the space industry my whole career and been a part of, this is the fifth space startup that I've been a part of actually. So, I've kind of started out in satellites, spent some time in working in the launch industry on rockets, then, now I'm here back in satellites and honestly, this is the most exciting of the different space startups that I've been a part of. >> Super interesting. Okay. Angelo, let's talk about the Rubin Observatory. Vera C. Rubin, famous woman scientist, galaxy guru. Now you guys, the Observatory, you're up way up high, you get a good look at the Southern sky. And I know COVID slowed you guys down a bit, but no doubt you continued to code away on the software. I know you're getting close, you got to be super excited, give us the update on the Observatory and your role. >> All right. So, yeah. Rubin is a state of the art observatory that is in construction on a remote mountain in Chile. And, with Rubin we'll conduct the large survey of space and time. We're going to observe the sky with eight meter optical telescope and take 1000 pictures every night with 2.2 Gigapixel camera. And we are going to do that for 10 years, which is the duration of the survey. >> Yeah, amazing project. Now, you earned a doctor of philosophy so you probably spent some time thinking about what's out there, and then you went out to earn a PhD in astronomy and astrophysics. So, this is something that you've been working on for the better part of your career, isn't it? >> Yeah, that's right, about 15 years. I studied physics in college. Then I got a PhD in astronomy. And, I worked for about five years in another project, the Dark Energy Survey before joining Rubin in 2015. >> Yeah, impressive. So it seems like both your organizations are looking at space from two different angles. One thing you guys both have in common of course is software, and you both use InfluxDB as part of your data infrastructure. How did you discover InfluxDB, get into it? How do you use the platform? Maybe Caleb you could start. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the first company that I extensively used InfluxDB in, was a launch startup called Astra. And we were in the process of designing our first generation rocket there, and testing the engines, pumps, everything that goes into a rocket. And, when I joined the company our data story was not very mature. We were collecting a bunch of data in LabVIEW and engineers were taking that over to MATLAB to process it. And at first, there, you know, that's the way that a lot of engineers and scientists are used to working. And at first that was, like people weren't entirely sure that that was, that needed to change. But, it's, something, the nice thing about InfluxDB is that, it's so easy to deploy. So as, our software engineering team was able to get it deployed and, up and running very quickly and then quickly also backport all of the data that we collected this far into Influx. And, what was amazing to see and is kind of the super cool moment with Influx is, when we hooked that up to Grafana, Grafana as the visualization platform we used with Influx, 'cause it works really well with it. There was like this aha moment of our engineers who are used to this post process kind of method for dealing with their data, where they could just almost instantly easily discover data that they hadn't been able to see before, and take the manual processes that they would run after a test and just throw those all in Influx and have live data as tests were coming, and, I saw them implementing like crazy rocket equation type stuff in Influx, and it just was totally game changing for how we tested. >> So Angelo, I was explaining in my open, that you could add a column in a traditional RDBMS and do time series, but with the volume of data that you're talking about in the example that Caleb just gave, you have to have a purpose built time series database. Where did you first learn about InfluxDB? >> Yeah, correct. So, I work with the data management team, and my first project was the record metrics that measured the performance of our software, the software that we used to process the data. So I started implementing that in our relational database. But then I realized that in fact I was dealing with time series data and I should really use a solution built for that. And then I started looking at time series databases and I found InfluxDB, and that was back in 2018. The, another use for InfluxDB that I'm also interested is the visits database. If you think about the observations, we are moving the telescope all the time and pointing to specific directions in the sky and taking pictures every 30 seconds. So that itself is a time series. And every point in that time series, we call a visit. So we want to record the metadata about those visits in InfluxDB. That time series is going to be 10 years long, with about 1000 points every night. It's actually not too much data compared to other problems. It's really just a different time scale. >> The telescope at the Rubin Observatory is like, pun intended, I guess the star of the show. And I believe I read that it's going to be the first of the next gen telescopes to come online. It's got this massive field of view, like three orders of magnitude times the Hubble's widest camera view, which is amazing. Like, that's like 40 moons in an image, amazingly fast as well. What else can you tell us about the telescope? >> This telescope it has to move really fast. And, it also has to carry the primary mirror which is an eight meter piece of glass. It's very heavy. And it has to carry a camera which has about the size of a small car. And this whole structure weighs about 300 tons. For that to work, the telescope needs to be very compact and stiff. And one thing that's amazing about it's design is that, the telescope, this 300 tons structure, it sits on a tiny film of oil, which has the diameter of human hair. And that makes an, almost zero friction interface. In fact, a few people can move this enormous structure with only their hands. As you said, another aspect that makes this telescope unique is the optical design. It's a wide field telescope. So, each image has, in diameter the size of about seven full moons. And, with that, we can map the entire sky in only three days. And of course, during operations everything's controlled by software and it is automatic. There's a very complex piece of software called the Scheduler, which is responsible for moving the telescope, and the camera, which is recording 15 terabytes of data every night. >> And Angelo, all this data lands in InfluxDB, correct? And what are you doing with all that data? >> Yeah, actually not. So we use InfluxDB to record engineering data and metadata about the observations. Like telemetry, events, and commands from the telescope. That's a much smaller data set compared to the images. But it is still challenging because you have some high frequency data that the system needs to keep up, and, we need to store this data and have it around for the lifetime of the project. >> Got it. Thank you. Okay, Caleb, let's bring you back in. Tell us more about the, you got these dishwasher size satellites, kind of using a multi-tenant model, I think it's genius. But tell us about the satellites themselves. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, we have in space some satellites already that as you said, are like dishwasher, mini fridge kind of size. And we're working on a bunch more that are a variety of sizes from shoebox to, I guess, a few times larger than what we have today. And it is, we do shoot to have effectively something like a multi-tenant model where we will buy a bus off the shelf. The bus is what you can kind of think of as the core piece of the satellite, almost like a motherboard or something where it's providing the power, it has the solar panels, it has some radios attached to it. It handles the attitude control, basically steers the spacecraft in orbit, and then we build also in-house, what we call our payload hub which is, has all, any customer payloads attached and our own kind of Edge processing sort of capabilities built into it. And, so we integrate that, we launch it, and those things because they're in lower Earth orbit, they're orbiting the earth every 90 minutes. That's, seven kilometers per second which is several times faster than a speeding bullet. So we have one of the unique challenges of operating spacecraft in lower Earth orbit is that generally you can't talk to them all the time. So, we're managing these things through very brief windows of time, where we get to talk to them through our ground sites, either in Antarctica or in the North pole region. >> Talk more about how you use InfluxDB to make sense of this data through all this tech that you're launching into space. >> We basically, previously we started off when I joined the company, storing all of that as Angelo did in a regular relational database. And we found that it was so slow and the size of our data would balloon over the course of a couple days to the point where we weren't able to even store all of the data that we were getting. So we migrated to InfluxDB to store our time series telemetry from the spacecraft. So, that's things like power level, voltage, currents, counts, whatever metadata we need to monitor about the spacecraft, we now store that in InfluxDB. And that has, now we can actually easily store the entire volume of data for the mission life so far without having to worry about the size bloating to an unmanageable amount, and we can also seamlessly query large chunks of data. Like if I need to see, you know, for example, as an operator, I might want to see how my battery state of charge is evolving over the course of the year, I can have, plot in an Influx that loads that in a fraction of a second for a year's worth of data because it does, intelligent, it can intelligently group the data by assigning time interval. So, it's been extremely powerful for us to access the data. And, as time has gone on, we've gradually migrated more and more of our operating data into Influx. >> Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about, we throw this term around a lot of, you know, data driven, a lot of companies say, "Oh yes, we're data driven." But you guys really are, I mean, you got data at the core. Caleb, what does that mean to you? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think the, and the clearest example of when I saw this be like totally game changing is what I mentioned before at Astra where our engineer's feedback loop went from a lot of kind of slow researching, digging into the data to like an instant, instantaneous almost, seeing the data, making decisions based on it immediately rather than having to wait for some processing. And that's something that I've also seen echoed in my current role. But to give another practical example, as I said, we have a huge amount of data that comes down every orbit and we need to be able to ingest all of that data almost instantaneously and provide it to the operator in near real time, about a second worth of latency is all that's acceptable for us to react to see what is coming down from the spacecraft. And building that pipeline is challenging from a software engineering standpoint. My primary language is Python which isn't necessarily that fast. So what we've done is started, and the goal of being data-driven is publish metrics on individual, how individual pieces of our data processing pipeline are performing into Influx as well. And we do that in production as well as in dev. So we have kind of a production monitoring flow. And what that has done is allow us to make intelligent decisions on our software development roadmap where it makes the most sense for us to focus our development efforts in terms of improving our software efficiency, just because we have that visibility into where the real problems are. And sometimes we've found ourselves before we started doing this, kind of chasing rabbits that weren't necessarily the real root cause of issues that we were seeing. But now that we're being a bit more data driven there, we are being much more effective in where we're spending our resources and our time, which is especially critical to us as we scale from supporting a couple of satellites to supporting many, many satellites at once. >> Yeah, of course is how you reduced those dead ends. Maybe Angelo you could talk about what sort of data-driven means to you and your teams. >> I would say that, having real time visibility to the telemetry data and metrics is crucial for us. We need to make sure that the images that we collect with the telescope have good quality, and, that they are within the specifications to meet our science goals. And so if they are not, we want to know that as soon as possible and then start fixing problems. >> Caleb, what are your sort of event, you know, intervals like? >> So I would say that, as of today on the spacecraft, the event, the level of timing that we deal with probably tops out at about 20 Hertz, 20 measurements per second on things like our gyroscopes. But, the, I think the core point here of the ability to have high precision data is extremely important for these kinds of scientific applications and I'll give an example from when I worked at, on the rockets at Astra. There, our baseline data rate that we would ingest data during a test is 500 Hertz. So 500 samples per second, and in some cases we would actually need to ingest much higher rate data, even up to like 1.5 kilohertz, so extremely, extremely high precision data there where timing really matters a lot. And, you know, I can, one of the really powerful things about Influx is the fact that it can handle this. That's one of the reasons we chose it, because, there's, times when we're looking at the results of a firing where you're zooming in, you know, I talked earlier about how on my current job we often zoom out to look at a year's worth of data. You're zooming in to where your screen is preoccupied by a tiny fraction of a second, and you need to see same thing as Angelo just said, not just the actual telemetry, which is coming in at a high rate, but the events that are coming out of our controllers, so that can be something like, "Hey, I opened this valve at exactly this time," and that goes, we want to have that at, micro, or even nanosecond precision so that we know, okay, we saw a spike in chamber pressure at this exact moment, was that before or after this valve opened? That kind of visibility is critical in these kind of scientific applications, and absolutely game changing to be able to see that in near real time, and with, a really easy way for engineers to be able to visualize this data themselves without having to wait for us software engineers to go build it for them. >> Can the scientists do self-serve or do you have to design and build all the analytics and queries for your scientists? >> Well, I think that's absolutely, from my perspective that's absolutely one of the best things about Influx and what I've seen be game changing is that, generally I'd say anyone can learn to use Influx. And honestly, most of our users might not even know they're using Influx, because, the interface that we expose to them is Grafana, which is a generic graphing, open source graphing library that is very similar to Influx zone Chronograf. >> Sure. >> And what it does is, it provides this almost, it's a very intuitive UI for building your queries. So, you choose a measurement and it shows a dropdown of available measurements. And then you choose the particular fields you want to look at, and again, that's a dropdown. So, it's really easy for our users to discover and there's kind of point and click options for doing math, aggregations. You can even do like perfect kind of predictions all within Grafana, the Grafana user interface, which is really just a wrapper around the APIs and functionality that Influx provides. >> Putting data in the hands of those who have the context, the domain experts is key. Angelo, is it the same situation for you, is it self-serve? >> Yeah, correct. As I mentioned before, we have the astronomers making their own dashboards because they know what exactly what they need to visualize. >> Yeah, I mean, it's all about using the right tool for the job. I think for us, when I joined the company we weren't using InfluxDB and we were dealing with serious issues of the database growing to an incredible size extremely quickly, and being unable to like even querying short periods of data was taking on the order of seconds, which is just not possible for operations. >> Guys, this has been really formative, it's pretty exciting to see how the edge, is mountaintops, lower Earth orbits, I mean space is the ultimate edge, isn't it? I wonder if you could answer two questions to wrap here. You know, what comes next for you guys? And is there something that you're really excited about that you're working on? Caleb maybe you could go first and then Angelo you can bring us home. >> Basically what's next for Loft Orbital is more satellites, a greater push towards infrastructure, and really making, our mission is to make space simple for our customers and for everyone. And we're scaling the company like crazy now, making that happen. It's extremely exciting, an extremely exciting time to be in this company and to be in this industry as a whole. Because there are so many interesting applications out there, so many cool ways of leveraging space that people are taking advantage of, and with companies like SpaceX and the, now rapidly lowering cost of launch it's just a really exciting place to be in. We're launching more satellites, we are scaling up for some constellations, and our ground system has to be improved to match. So, there's a lot of improvements that we're working on to really scale up our control software to be best in class and make it capable of handling such a large workload, so. >> Are you guys hiring? >> We are absolutely hiring, so I would, we have positions all over the company, so, we need software engineers, we need people who do more aerospace specific stuff. So absolutely, I'd encourage anyone to check out the Loft Orbital website, if this is at all interesting. >> All right, Angelo, bring us home. >> Yeah. So what's next for us is really getting this telescope working and collecting data. And when that's happened is going to be just a deluge of data coming out of this camera and handling all that data is going to be really challenging. Yeah, I want to be here for that, I'm looking forward. Like for next year we have like an important milestone, which is our commissioning camera, which is a simplified version of the full camera, it's going to be on sky, and so yeah, most of the system has to be working by then. >> Nice. All right guys, with that we're going to end it. Thank you so much, really fascinating, and thanks to InfluxDB for making this possible, really groundbreaking stuff, enabling value creation at the Edge, in the cloud, and of course, beyond at the space. So, really transformational work that you guys are doing, so congratulations and really appreciate the broader community. I can't wait to see what comes next from having this entire ecosystem. Now, in a moment, I'll be back to wrap up. This is Dave Vellante, and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Welcome. Telegraf is a popular open source data collection agent. Telegraf collects data from hundreds of systems like IoT sensors, cloud deployments, and enterprise applications. It's used by everyone from individual developers and hobbyists, to large corporate teams. The Telegraf project has a very welcoming and active Open Source community. Learn how to get involved by visiting the Telegraf GitHub page. Whether you want to contribute code, improve documentation, participate in testing, or just show what you're doing with Telegraf. We'd love to hear what you're building. >> Thanks for watching Moving the World with InfluxDB, made possible by Influx Data. I hope you learned some things and are inspired to look deeper into where time series databases might fit into your environment. If you're dealing with large and or fast data volumes, and you want to scale cost effectively with the highest performance, and you're analyzing metrics and data over time, times series databases just might be a great fit for you. Try InfluxDB out. You can start with a free cloud account by clicking on the link in the resources below. Remember, all these recordings are going to be available on demand of thecube.net and influxdata.com, so check those out. And poke around Influx Data. They are the folks behind InfluxDB, and one of the leaders in the space. We hope you enjoyed the program, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

>>Time series data is any data that's stamped in time in some way that could be every second, every minute, every five minutes, every hour, every nanosecond, whatever it might be. And typically that data comes from sources in the physical world like devices or sensors, temperature, gauges, batteries, any device really, or things in the virtual world could be software, maybe it's software in the cloud or data and containers or microservices or virtual machines. So all of these items, whether in the physical or virtual world, they're generating a lot of time series data. Now time series data has been around for a long time, and there are many examples in our everyday lives. All you gotta do is punch up any stock, ticker and look at its price over time and graphical form. And that's a simple use case that anyone can relate to and you can build timestamps into a traditional relational database. >>You just add a column to capture time and as well, there are examples of log data being dumped into a data store that can be searched and captured and ingested and visualized. Now, the problem with the latter example that I just gave you is that you gotta hunt and Peck and search and extract what you're looking for. And the problem with the former is that traditional general purpose databases they're designed as sort of a Swiss army knife for any workload. And there are a lot of functions that get in the way and make them inefficient for time series analysis, especially at scale. Like when you think about O T and edge scale, where things are happening super fast, ingestion is coming from many different sources and analysis often needs to be done in real time or near real time. And that's where time series databases come in. >>They're purpose built and can much more efficiently support ingesting metrics at scale, and then comparing data points over time, time series databases can write and read at significantly higher speeds and deal with far more data than traditional database methods. And they're more cost effective instead of throwing processing power at the problem. For example, the underlying architecture and algorithms of time series databases can optimize queries and they can reclaim wasted storage space and reuse it. At scale time, series databases are simply a better fit for the job. Welcome to moving the world with influx DB made possible by influx data. My name is Dave Valante and I'll be your host today. Influx data is the company behind InfluxDB. The open source time series database InfluxDB is designed specifically to handle time series data. As I just explained, we have an exciting program for you today, and we're gonna showcase some really interesting use cases. >>First, we'll kick it off in our Palo Alto studios where my colleague, John furrier will interview Evan Kaplan. Who's the CEO of influx data after John and Evan set the table. John's gonna sit down with Brian Gilmore. He's the director of IOT and emerging tech at influx data. And they're gonna dig into where influx data is gaining traction and why adoption is occurring and, and why it's so robust. And they're gonna have tons of examples and double click into the technology. And then we bring it back here to our east coast studios, where I get to talk to two practitioners, doing amazing things in space with satellites and modern telescopes. These use cases will blow your mind. You don't want to miss it. So thanks for being here today. And with that, let's get started. Take it away. Palo Alto. >>Okay. Today we welcome Evan Kaplan, CEO of influx data, the company behind influx DB. Welcome Evan. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey John, thanks for having me >>Great segment here on the influx DB story. What is the story? Take us through the history. Why time series? What's the story >><laugh> so the history history is actually actually pretty interesting. Um, Paul dicks, my partner in this and our founder, um, super passionate about developers and developer experience. And, um, he had worked on wall street building a number of time series kind of platform trading platforms for trading stocks. And from his point of view, it was always what he would call a yak shave, which means you had to do a ton of work just to start doing work, which means you had to write a bunch of extrinsic routines. You had to write a bunch of application handling on existing relational databases in order to come up with something that was optimized for a trading platform or a time series platform. And he sort of, he just developed this real clear point of view is this is not how developers should work. And so in 2013, he went through why Combinator and he built something for, he made his first commit to open source in flu DB at the end of 2013. And, and he basically, you know, from my point of view, he invented modern time series, which is you start with a purpose-built time series platform to do these kind of workloads. And you get all the benefits of having something right outta the box. So a developer can be totally productive right away. >>And how many people in the company what's the history of employees and stuff? >>Yeah, I think we're, I, you know, I always forget the number, but it's something like 230 or 240 people now. Um, the company, I joined the company in 2016 and I love Paul's vision. And I just had a strong conviction about the relationship between time series and IOT. Cuz if you think about it, what sensors do is they speak time, series, pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, light, they're measuring they're instrumenting something over time. And so I thought that would be super relevant over long term and I've not regretted it. >>Oh no. And it's interesting at that time, go back in the history, you know, the role of databases, well, relational database is the one database to rule the world. And then as clouds started coming in, you starting to see more databases, proliferate types of databases and time series in particular is interesting. Cuz real time has become super valuable from an application standpoint, O T which speaks time series means something it's like time matters >>Time. >>Yeah. And sometimes data's not worth it after the time, sometimes it worth it. And then you get the data lake. So you have this whole new evolution. Is this the momentum? What's the momentum, I guess the question is what's the momentum behind >>You mean what's causing us to grow. So >>Yeah, the time series, why is time series >>And the >>Category momentum? What's the bottom line? >>Well, think about it. You think about it from a broad, broad sort of frame, which is where, what everybody's trying to do is build increasingly intelligent systems, whether it's a self-driving car or a robotic system that does what you want to do or a self-healing software system, everybody wants to build increasing intelligent systems. And so in order to build these increasing intelligent systems, you have to instrument the system well, and you have to instrument it over time, better and better. And so you need a tool, a fundamental tool to drive that instrumentation. And that's become clear to everybody that that instrumentation is all based on time. And so what happened, what happened, what happened what's gonna happen? And so you get to these applications like predictive maintenance or smarter systems. And increasingly you want to do that stuff, not just intelligently, but fast in real time. So millisecond response so that when you're driving a self-driving car and the system realizes that you're about to do something, essentially you wanna be able to act in something that looks like real time, all systems want to do that, want to be more intelligent and they want to be more real time. And so we just happen to, you know, we happen to show up at the right time in the evolution of a >>Market. It's interesting near real time. Isn't good enough when you need real time. >><laugh> yeah, it's not, it's not. And it's like, and it's like, everybody wants, even when you don't need it, ironically, you want it. It's like having the feature for, you know, you buy a new television, you want that one feature, even though you're not gonna use it, you decide that your buying criteria real time is a buying criteria >>For, so you, I mean, what you're saying then is near real time is getting closer to real time as possible, as fast as possible. Right. Okay. So talk about the aspect of data, cuz we're hearing a lot of conversations on the cube in particular around how people are implementing and actually getting better. So iterating on data, but you have to know when it happened to get, know how to fix it. So this is a big part of how we're seeing with people saying, Hey, you know, I wanna make my machine learning algorithms better after the fact I wanna learn from the data. Um, how does that, how do you see that evolving? Is that one of the use cases of sensors as people bring data in off the network, getting better with the data knowing when it happened? >>Well, for sure. So, so for sure, what you're saying is, is, is none of this is non-linear, it's all incremental. And so if you take something, you know, just as an easy example, if you take a self-driving car, what you're doing is you're instrumenting that car to understand where it can perform in the real world in real time. And if you do that, if you run the loop, which is I instrumented, I watch what happens, oh, that's wrong? Oh, I have to correct for that. I correct for that in the software. If you do that for a billion times, you get a self-driving car, but every system moves along that evolution. And so you get the dynamic of, you know, of constantly instrumenting watching the system behave and do it. And this and sets up driving car is one thing. But even in the human genome, if you look at some of our customers, you know, people like, you know, people doing solar arrays, people doing power walls, like all of these systems are getting smarter. >>Well, let's get into that. What are the top applications? What are you seeing for your, with in, with influx DB, the time series, what's the sweet spot for the application use case and some customers give some >>Examples. Yeah. So it's, it's pretty easy to understand on one side of the equation that's the physical side is sensors are sensors are getting cheap. Obviously we know that and they're getting the whole physical world is getting instrumented, your home, your car, the factory floor, your wrist, watch your healthcare, you name it. It's getting instrumented in the physical world. We're watching the physical world in real time. And so there are three or four sweet spots for us, but, but they're all on that side. They're all about IOT. So they're think about consumer IOT projects like Google's nest todo, um, particle sensors, um, even delivery engines like rapid who deliver the Instacart of south America, like anywhere there's a physical location do and that's on the consumer side. And then another exciting space is the industrial side factories are changing dramatically over time. Increasingly moving away from proprietary equipment to develop or driven systems that run operational because what, what has to get smarter when you're building, when you're building a factory is systems all have to get smarter. And then, um, lastly, a lot in the renewables sustainability. So a lot, you know, Tesla, lucid, motors, Cola, motors, um, you know, lots to do with electric cars, solar arrays, windmills, arrays, just anything that's gonna get instrumented that where that instrumentation becomes part of what the purpose >>Is. It's interesting. The convergence of physical and digital is happening with the data IOT. You mentioned, you know, you think of IOT, look at the use cases there, it was proprietary OT systems. Now becoming more IP enabled internet protocol and now edge compute, getting smaller, faster, cheaper AI going to the edge. Now you have all kinds of new capabilities that bring that real time and time series opportunity. Are you seeing IOT going to a new level? What was the, what's the IOT where's the IOT dots connecting to because you know, as these two cultures merge yeah. Operations, basically industrial factory car, they gotta get smarter, intelligent edge is a buzzword, but I mean, it has to be more intelligent. Where's the, where's the action in all this. So the >>Action, really, it really at the core, it's at the developer, right? Because you're looking at these things, it's very hard to get an off the shelf system to do the kinds of physical and software interaction. So the actions really happen at the developer. And so what you're seeing is a movement in the world that, that maybe you and I grew up in with it or OT moving increasingly that developer driven capability. And so all of these IOT systems they're bespoke, they don't come out of the box. And so the developer, the architect, the CTO, they define what's my business. What am I trying to do? Am I trying to sequence a human genome and figure out when these genes express theself or am I trying to figure out when the next heart rate monitor's gonna show up on my apple watch, right? What am I trying to do? What's the system I need to build. And so starting with the developers where all of the good stuff happens here, which is different than it used to be, right. Used to be you'd buy an application or a service or a SA thing for, but with this dynamic, with this integration of systems, it's all about bespoke. It's all about building >>Something. So let's get to the developer real quick, real highlight point here is the data. I mean, I could see a developer saying, okay, I need to have an application for the edge IOT edge or car. I mean, we're gonna have, I mean, Tesla's got applications of the car it's right there. I mean, yes, there's the modern application life cycle now. So take us through how this impacts the developer. Does it impact their C I C D pipeline? Is it cloud native? I mean, where does this all, where does this go to? >>Well, so first of all, you're talking about, there was an internal journey that we had to go through as a company, which, which I think is fascinating for anybody who's interested is we went from primarily a monolithic software that was open sourced to building a cloud native platform, which means we had to move from an agile development environment to a C I C D environment. So to a degree that you are moving your service, whether it's, you know, Tesla monitoring your car and updating your power walls, right. Or whether it's a solar company updating the arrays, right. To degree that that service is cloud. Then increasingly remove from an agile development to a C I C D environment, which you're shipping code to production every day. And so it's not just the developers, all the infrastructure to support the developers to run that service and that sort of stuff. I think that's also gonna happen in a big way >>When your customer base that you have now, and as you see, evolving with infl DB, is it that they're gonna be writing more of the application or relying more on others? I mean, obviously there's an open source component here. So when you bring in kind of old way, new way old way was I got a proprietary, a platform running all this O T stuff and I gotta write, here's an application. That's general purpose. Yeah. I have some flexibility, somewhat brittle, maybe not a lot of robustness to it, but it does its job >>A good way to think about this is versus a new way >>Is >>What so yeah, good way to think about this is what, what's the role of the developer slash architect CTO that chain within a large, within an enterprise or a company. And so, um, the way to think about it is I started my career in the aerospace industry <laugh> and so when you look at what Boeing does to assemble a plane, they build very, very few of the parts. Instead, what they do is they assemble, they buy the wings, they buy the engines, they assemble, actually, they don't buy the wings. It's the one thing they buy the, the material for the w they build the wings, cuz there's a lot of tech in the wings and they end up being assemblers smart assemblers of what ends up being a flying airplane, which is pretty big deal even now. And so what, what happens with software people is they have the ability to pull from, you know, the best of the open source world. So they would pull a time series capability from us. Then they would assemble that with, with potentially some ETL logic from somebody else, or they'd assemble it with, um, a Kafka interface to be able to stream the data in. And so they become very good integrators and assemblers, but they become masters of that bespoke application. And I think that's where it goes, cuz you're not writing native code for everything. >>So they're more flexible. They have faster time to market cuz they're assembling way faster and they get to still maintain their core competency. Okay. Their wings in this case, >>They become increasingly not just coders, but designers and developers. They become broadly builders is what we like to think of it. People who start and build stuff by the way, this is not different than the people just up the road Google have been doing for years or the tier one, Amazon building all their own. >>Well, I think one of the things that's interesting is is that this idea of a systems developing a system architecture, I mean systems, uh, uh, systems have consequences when you make changes. So when you have now cloud data center on premise and edge working together, how does that work across the system? You can't have a wing that doesn't work with the other wing kind of thing. >>That's exactly. But that's where the that's where the, you know, that that Boeing or that airplane building analogy comes in for us. We've really been thoughtful about that because IOT it's critical. So our open source edge has the same API as our cloud native stuff that has enterprise on pre edge. So our multiple products have the same API and they have a relationship with each other. They can talk with each other. So the builder builds it once. And so this is where, when you start thinking about the components that people have to use to build these services is that you wanna make sure, at least that base layer, that database layer, that those components talk to each other. >>So I'll have to ask you if I'm the customer. I put my customer hat on. Okay. Hey, I'm dealing with a lot. >>That mean you have a PO for <laugh> >>A big check. I blank check. If you can answer this question only if the tech, if, if you get the question right, I got all this important operation stuff. I got my factory, I got my self-driving cars. This isn't like trivial stuff. This is my business. How should I be thinking about time series? Because now I have to make these architectural decisions, as you mentioned, and it's gonna impact my application development. So huge decision point for your customers. What should I care about the most? So what's in it for me. Why is time series >>Important? Yeah, that's a great question. So chances are, if you've got a business that was, you know, 20 years old or 25 years old, you were already thinking about time series. You probably didn't call it that you built something on a Oracle or you built something on IBM's DB two, right. And you made it work within your system. Right? And so that's what you started building. So it's already out there. There are, you know, there are probably hundreds of millions of time series applications out there today. But as you start to think about this increasing need for real time, and you start to think about increasing intelligence, you think about optimizing those systems over time. I hate the word, but digital transformation. Then you start with time series. It's a foundational base layer for any system that you're gonna build. There's no system I can think of where time series, shouldn't be the foundational base layer. If you just wanna store your data and just leave it there and then maybe look it up every five years. That's fine. That's not time. Series time series is when you're building a smarter, more intelligent, more real time system. And the developers now know that. And so the more they play a role in building these systems, the more obvious it becomes. >>And since I have a PO for you and a big check, yeah. What is, what's the value to me as I, when I implement this, what's the end state, what's it look like when it's up and running? What's the value proposition for me. What's an >>So, so when it's up and running, you're able to handle the queries, the writing of the data, the down sampling of the data, they're transforming it in near real time. So that the other dependencies that a system that gets for adjusting a solar array or trading energy off of a power wall or some sort of human genome, those systems work better. So time series is foundational. It's not like it's, you know, it's not like it's doing every action that's above, but it's foundational to build a really compelling, intelligent system. I think that's what developers and archs are seeing now. >>Bottom line, final word. What's in it for the customer. What's what, what's your, um, what's your statement to the customer? What would you say to someone looking to do something in time series on edge? >>Yeah. So, so it's pretty clear to clear to us that if you're building, if you view yourself as being in the build business of building systems that you want 'em to be increasingly intelligent, self-healing autonomous. You want 'em to operate in real time that you start from time series. But I also wanna say what's in it for us influx what's in it for us is people are doing some amazing stuff. You know, I highlighted some of the energy stuff, some of the human genome, some of the healthcare it's hard not to be proud or feel like, wow. Yeah. Somehow I've been lucky. I've arrived at the right time, in the right place with the right people to be able to deliver on that. That's that's also exciting on our side of the equation. >>Yeah. It's critical infrastructure, critical, critical operations. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. Great stuff, Evan. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate this segment. All right. In a moment, Brian Gilmore director of IOT and emerging technology that influx day will join me. You're watching the cube leader in tech coverage. Thanks for watching >>Time series data from sensors systems and applications is a key source in driving automation and prediction in technologies around the world. But managing the massive amount of timestamp data generated these days is overwhelming, especially at scale. That's why influx data developed influx DB, a time series data platform that collects stores and analyzes data influx DB empowers developers to extract valuable insights and turn them into action by building transformative IOT analytics and cloud native applications, purpose built and optimized to handle the scale and velocity of timestamped data. InfluxDB puts the power in your hands with developer tools that make it easy to get started quickly with less code InfluxDB is more than a database. It's a robust developer platform with integrated tooling. That's written in the languages you love. So you can innovate faster, run in flex DB anywhere you want by choosing the provider and region that best fits your needs across AWS, Microsoft Azure and Google cloud flex DB is fast and automatically scalable. So you can spend time delivering value to customers, not managing clusters, take control of your time series data. So you can focus on the features and functionalities that give your applications a competitive edge. Get started for free with influx DB, visit influx data.com/cloud to learn more. >>Okay. Now we're joined by Brian Gilmore director of IOT and emerging technologies at influx data. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you, John. Great to be here. >>We just spent some time with Evan going through the company and the value proposition, um, with influx DV, what's the momentum, where do you see this coming from? What's the value coming out of this? >>Well, I think it, we're sort of hitting a point where the technology is, is like the adoption of it is becoming mainstream. We're seeing it in all sorts of organizations, everybody from like the most well funded sort of advanced big technology companies to the smaller academics, the startups and the managing of that sort of data that emits from that technology is time series and us being able to give them a, a platform, a tool that's super easy to use, easy to start. And then of course will grow with them is, is been key to us. Sort of, you know, riding along with them is they're successful. >>Evan was mentioning that time series has been on everyone's radar and that's in the OT business for years. Now, you go back since 20 13, 14, even like five years ago that convergence of physical and digital coming together, IP enabled edge. Yeah. Edge has always been kind of hyped up, but why now? Why, why is the edge so hot right now from an adoption standpoint? Is it because it's just evolution, the tech getting better? >>I think it's, it's, it's twofold. I think that, you know, there was, I would think for some people, everybody was so focused on cloud over the last probably 10 years. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that they forgot about the compute that was available at the edge. And I think, you know, those, especially in the OT and on the factory floor who weren't able to take Avan full advantage of cloud through their applications, you know, still needed to be able to leverage that compute at the edge. I think the big thing that we're seeing now, which is interesting is, is that there's like a hybrid nature to all of these applications where there's definitely some data that's generated on the edge. There's definitely done some data that's generated in the cloud. And it's the ability for a developer to sort of like tie those two systems together and work with that data in a very unified uniform way. Um, that's giving them the opportunity to build solutions that, you know, really deliver value to whatever it is they're trying to do, whether it's, you know, the, the out reaches of outer space or whether it's optimizing the factory floor. >>Yeah. I think, I think one of the things you also mentions genome too, dig big data is coming to the real world. And I think I, OT has been kind of like this thing for OT and, and in some use case, but now with the, with the cloud, all companies have an edge strategy now. So yeah, what's the secret sauce because now this is hot, hot product for the whole world and not just industrial, but all businesses. What's the secret sauce. >>Well, I mean, I think part of it is just that the technology is becoming more capable and that's especially on the hardware side, right? I mean, like technology compute is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And we find that by supporting all the way down to the edge, even to the micro controller layer with our, um, you know, our client libraries and then working hard to make our applications, especially the database as small as possible so that it can be located as close to sort of the point of origin of that data in the edge as possible is, is, is fantastic. Now you can take that. You can run that locally. You can do your local decision making. You can use influx DB as sort of an input to automation control the autonomy that people are trying to drive at the edge. But when you link it up with everything that's in the cloud, that's when you get all of the sort of cloud scale capabilities of parallelized, AI and machine learning and all of that. >>So what's interesting is the open source success has been something that we've talked about a lot in the cube about how people are leveraging that you guys have users in the enterprise users that IOT market mm-hmm <affirmative>, but you got developers now. Yeah. Kind of together brought that up. How do you see that emerging? How do developers engage? What are some of the things you're seeing that developers are really getting into with InfluxDB >>What's? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there are the developers who are building companies, right? And these are the startups and the folks that we love to work with who are building new, you know, new services, new products, things like that. And, you know, especially on the consumer side of IOT, there's a lot of that, just those developers. But I think we, you gotta pay attention to those enterprise developers as well, right? There are tons of people with the, the title of engineer in, in your regular enterprise organizations. And they're there for systems integration. They're there for, you know, looking at what they would build versus what they would buy. And a lot of them come from, you know, a strong, open source background and they, they know the communities, they know the top platforms in those spaces and, and, you know, they're excited to be able to adopt and use, you know, to optimize inside the business as compared to just building a brand new one. >>You know, it's interesting too, when Evan and I were talking about open source versus closed OT systems, mm-hmm <affirmative> so how do you support the backwards compatibility of older systems while maintaining open dozens of data formats out there? Bunch of standards, protocols, new things are emerging. Everyone wants to have a control plane. Everyone wants to leverage the value of data. How do you guys keep track of it all? What do you guys support? >>Yeah, well, I mean, I think either through direct connection, like we have a product called Telegraph, it's unbelievable. It's open source, it's an edge agent. You can run it as close to the edge as you'd like, it speaks dozens of different protocols in its own, right? A couple of which MQTT B, C U a are very, very, um, applicable to these T use cases. But then we also, because we are sort of not only open source, but open in terms of our ability to collect data, we have a lot of partners who have built really great integrations from their own middleware, into influx DB. These are companies like ke wear and high bite who are really experts in those downstream industrial protocols. I mean, that's a business, not everybody wants to be in. It requires some very specialized, very hard work and a lot of support, um, you know, and so by making those connections and building those ecosystems, we get the best of both worlds. The customers can use the platforms they need up to the point where they would be putting into our database. >>What's some of customer testimonies that they, that share with you. Can you share some anecdotal kind of like, wow, that's the best thing I've ever used. This really changed my business, or this is a great tech that's helped me in these other areas. What are some of the, um, soundbites you hear from customers when they're successful? >>Yeah. I mean, I think it ranges. You've got customers who are, you know, just finally being able to do the monitoring of assets, you know, sort of at the edge in the field, we have a customer who's who's has these tunnel boring machines that go deep into the earth to like drill tunnels for, for, you know, cars and, and, you know, trains and things like that. You know, they are just excited to be able to stick a database onto those tunnel, boring machines, send them into the depths of the earth and know that when they come out, all of that telemetry at a very high frequency has been like safely stored. And then it can just very quickly and instantly connect up to their, you know, centralized database. So like just having that visibility is brand new to them. And that's super important. On the other hand, we have customers who are way far beyond the monitoring use case, where they're actually using the historical records in the time series database to, um, like I think Evan mentioned like forecast things. So for predictive maintenance, being able to pull in the telemetry from the machines, but then also all of that external enrichment data, the metadata, the temperatures, the pressure is who is operating the machine, those types of things, and being able to easily integrate with platforms like Jupyter notebooks or, you know, all of those scientific computing and machine learning libraries to be able to build the models, train the models, and then they can send that information back down to InfluxDB to apply it and detect those anomalies, which >>Are, I think that's gonna be an, an area. I personally think that's a hot area because I think if you look at AI right now, yeah. It's all about training the machine learning albums after the fact. So time series becomes hugely important. Yeah. Cause now you're thinking, okay, the data matters post time. Yeah. First time. And then it gets updated the new time. Yeah. So it's like constant data cleansing data iteration, data programming. We're starting to see this new use case emerge in the data field. >>Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think you agree. Yeah, of course. Yeah. The, the ability to sort of handle those pipelines of data smartly, um, intelligently, and then to be able to do all of the things you need to do with that data in stream, um, before it hits your sort of central repository. And, and we make that really easy for customers like Telegraph, not only does it have sort of the inputs to connect up to all of those protocols and the ability to capture and connect up to the, to the partner data. But also it has a whole bunch of capabilities around being able to process that data, enrich it, reform at it, route it, do whatever you need. So at that point you're basically able to, you're playing your data in exactly the way you would wanna do it. You're routing it to different, you know, destinations and, and it's, it's, it's not something that really has been in the realm of possibility until this point. Yeah. Yeah. >>And when Evan was on it's great. He was a CEO. So he sees the big picture with customers. He was, he kinda put the package together that said, Hey, we got a system. We got customers, people are wanting to leverage our product. What's your PO they're sell. He's selling too as well. So you have that whole CEO perspective, but he brought up this notion that there's multiple personas involved in kind of the influx DB system architect. You got developers and users. Can you talk about that? Reality as customers start to commercialize and operationalize this from a commercial standpoint, you got a relationship to the cloud. Yep. The edge is there. Yep. The edge is getting super important, but cloud brings a lot of scale to the table. So what is the relationship to the cloud? Can you share your thoughts on edge and its relationship to the cloud? >>Yeah. I mean, I think edge, you know, edges, you can think of it really as like the local information, right? So it's, it's generally like compartmentalized to a point of like, you know, a single asset or a single factory align, whatever. Um, but what people do who wanna pro they wanna be able to make the decisions there at the edge locally, um, quickly minus the latency of sort of taking that large volume of data, shipping it to the cloud and doing something with it there. So we allow them to do exactly that. Then what they can do is they can actually downsample that data or they can, you know, detect like the really important metrics or the anomalies. And then they can ship that to a central database in the cloud where they can do all sorts of really interesting things with it. Like you can get that centralized view of all of your global assets. You can start to compare asset to asset, and then you can do those things like we talked about, whereas you can do predictive types of analytics or, you know, larger scale anomaly detections. >>So in this model you have a lot of commercial operations, industrial equipment. Yep. The physical plant, physical business with virtual data cloud all coming together. What's the future for InfluxDB from a tech standpoint. Cause you got open. Yep. There's an ecosystem there. Yep. You have customers who want operational reliability for sure. I mean, so you got organic <laugh> >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, again, we got iPhones when everybody's waiting for flying cars. Right. So I don't know. We can like absolutely perfectly predict what's coming, but I think there are some givens and I think those givens are gonna be that the world is only gonna become more hybrid. Right. And then, you know, so we are going to have much more widely distributed, you know, situations where you have data being generated in the cloud, you have data gen being generated at the edge and then there's gonna be data generated sort sort of at all points in between like physical locations as well as things that are, that are very virtual. And I think, you know, we are, we're building some technology right now. That's going to allow, um, the concept of a database to be much more fluid and flexible, sort of more aligned with what a file would be like. >>And so being able to move data to the compute for analysis or move the compute to the data for analysis, those are the types of, of solutions that we'll be bringing to the customers sort of over the next little bit. Um, but I also think we have to start thinking about like what happens when the edge is actually off the planet. Right. I mean, we've got customers, you're gonna talk to two of them, uh, in the panel who are actually working with data that comes from like outside the earth, like, you know, either in low earth orbit or you know, all the way sort of on the other side of the universe. Yeah. And, and to be able to process data like that and to do so in a way it's it's we gotta, we gotta build the fundamentals for that right now on the factory floor and in the mines and in the tunnels. Um, so that we'll be ready for that one. >>I think you bring up a good point there because one of the things that's common in the industry right now, people are talking about, this is kind of new thinking is hyper scale's always been built up full stack developers, even the old OT world, Evan was pointing out that they built everything right. And the world's going to more assembly with core competency and IP and also property being the core of their apple. So faster assembly and building, but also integration. You got all this new stuff happening. Yeah. And that's to separate out the data complexity from the app. Yes. So space genome. Yep. Driving cars throws off massive data. >>It >>Does. So is Tesla, uh, is the car the same as the data layer? >>I mean the, yeah, it's, it's certainly a point of origin. I think the thing that we wanna do is we wanna let the developers work on the world, changing problems, the things that they're trying to solve, whether it's, you know, energy or, you know, any of the other health or, you know, other challenges that these teams are, are building against. And we'll worry about that time series data and the underlying data platform so that they don't have to. Right. I mean, I think you talked about it, uh, you know, for them just to be able to adopt the platform quickly, integrate it with their data sources and the other pieces of their applications. It's going to allow them to bring much faster time to market on these products. It's gonna allow them to be more iterative. They're gonna be able to do more sort of testing and things like that. And ultimately it will, it'll accelerate the adoption and the creation of >>Technology. You mentioned earlier in, in our talk about unification of data. Yeah. How about APIs? Cuz developers love APIs in the cloud unifying APIs. How do you view view that? >>Yeah, I mean, we are APIs, that's the product itself. Like everything, people like to think of it as sort of having this nice front end, but the front end is B built on our public APIs. Um, you know, and it, it allows the developer to build all of those hooks for not only data creation, but then data processing, data analytics, and then, you know, sort of data extraction to bring it to other platforms or other applications, microservices, whatever it might be. So, I mean, it is a world of APIs right now and you know, we, we bring a very sort of useful set of them for managing the time series data. These guys are all challenged with. It's >>Interesting. You and I were talking before we came on camera about how, um, data is, feels gonna have this kind of SRE role that DevOps had site reliability engineers, which manages a bunch of servers. There's so much data out there now. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's like reigning data for sure. And I think like that ability to be like one of the best jobs on the planet is gonna be to be able to like, sort of be that data Wrangler to be able to understand like what the data sources are, what the data formats are, how to be able to efficiently move that data from point a to point B and you know, to process it correctly so that the end users of that data aren't doing any of that sort of hard upfront preparation collection storage's >>Work. Yeah. That's data as code. I mean, data engineering is it is becoming a new discipline for sure. And, and the democratization is the benefit. Yeah. To everyone, data science get easier. I mean data science, but they wanna make it easy. Right. <laugh> yeah. They wanna do the analysis, >>Right? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it, it's a really good point. I think like we try to give our users as many ways as there could be possible to get data in and get data out. We sort of think about it as meeting them where they are. Right. So like we build, we have the sort of client libraries that allow them to just port to us, you know, directly from the applications and the languages that they're writing, but then they can also pull it out. And at that point nobody's gonna know the users, the end consumers of that data, better than those people who are building those applications. And so they're building these user interfaces, which are making all of that data accessible for, you know, their end users inside their organization. >>Well, Brian, great segment, great insight. Thanks for sharing all, all the complexities and, and IOT that you guys helped take away with the APIs and, and assembly and, and all the system architectures that are changing edge is real cloud is real. Yeah, absolutely. Mainstream enterprises. And you got developer attraction too, so congratulations. >>Yeah. It's >>Great. Well, thank any, any last word you wanna share >>Deal with? No, just, I mean, please, you know, if you're, if you're gonna, if you're gonna check out influx TV, download it, try out the open source contribute if you can. That's a, that's a huge thing. It's part of being the open source community. Um, you know, but definitely just, just use it. I think when once people use it, they try it out. They'll understand very, >>Very quickly. So open source with developers, enterprise and edge coming together all together. You're gonna hear more about that in the next segment, too. Right. Thanks for coming on. Okay. Thanks. When we return, Dave LAN will lead a panel on edge and data influx DB. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Why the startup, we move really fast. We find that in flex DB can move as fast as us. It's just a great group, very collaborative, very interested in manufacturing. And we see a bright future in working with influence. My name is Aaron Seley. I'm the CTO at HBI. Highlight's one of the first companies to focus on manufacturing data and apply the concepts of data ops, treat that as an asset to deliver to the it system, to enable applications like overall equipment effectiveness that can help the factory produce better, smarter, faster time series data. And manufacturing's really important. If you take a piece of equipment, you have the temperature pressure at the moment that you can look at to kind of see the state of what's going on. So without that context and understanding you can't do what manufacturers ultimately want to do, which is predict the future. >>Influx DB represents kind of a new way to storm time series data with some more advanced technology and more importantly, more open technologies. The other thing that influx does really well is once the data's influx, it's very easy to get out, right? They have a modern rest API and other ways to access the data. That would be much more difficult to do integrations with classic historians highlight can serve to model data, aggregate data on the shop floor from a multitude of sources, whether that be P C U a servers, manufacturing execution systems, E R P et cetera, and then push that seamlessly into influx to then be able to run calculations. Manufacturing is changing this industrial 4.0, and what we're seeing is influx being part of that equation. Being used to store data off the unified name space, we recommend InfluxDB all the time to customers that are exploring a new way to share data manufacturing called the unified name space who have open questions around how do I share this new data that's coming through my UNS or my QTT broker? How do I store this and be able to query it over time? And we often point to influx as a solution for that is a great brand. It's a great group of people and it's a great technology. >>Okay. We're now going to go into the customer panel and we'd like to welcome Angelo Fasi. Who's a software engineer at the Vera C Ruben observatory in Caleb McLaughlin whose senior spacecraft operations software engineer at loft orbital guys. Thanks for joining us. You don't wanna miss folks this interview, Caleb, let's start with you. You work for an extremely cool company. You're launching satellites into space. I mean, there, of course doing that is, is highly complex and not a cheap endeavor. Tell us about loft Orbi and what you guys do to attack that problem. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, thanks for having me here by the way. Uh, so loft orbital is a, uh, company. That's a series B startup now, uh, who and our mission basically is to provide, uh, rapid access to space for all kinds of customers. Uh, historically if you want to fly something in space, do something in space, it's extremely expensive. You need to book a launch, build a bus, hire a team to operate it, you know, have a big software teams, uh, and then eventually worry about, you know, a bunch like just a lot of very specialized engineering. And what we're trying to do is change that from a super specialized problem that has an extremely high barrier of access to a infrastructure problem. So that it's almost as simple as, you know, deploying a VM in, uh, AWS or GCP is getting your, uh, programs, your mission deployed on orbit, uh, with access to, you know, different sensors, uh, cameras, radios, stuff like that. >>So that's, that's kind of our mission. And just to give a really brief example of the kind of customer that we can serve. Uh, there's a really cool company called, uh, totem labs who is working on building, uh, IOT cons, an IOT constellation for in of things, basically being able to get telemetry from all over the world. They're the first company to demonstrate indoor T, which means you have this little modem inside a container container that you, that you track from anywhere in the world as it's going across the ocean. Um, so they're, it's really little and they've been able to stay a small startup that's focused on their product, which is the, uh, that super crazy complicated, cool radio while we handle the whole space segment for them, which just, you know, before loft was really impossible. So that's, our mission is, uh, providing space infrastructure as a service. We are kind of groundbreaking in this area and we're serving, you know, a huge variety of customers with all kinds of different missions, um, and obviously generating a ton of data in space, uh, that we've gotta handle. Yeah. >>So amazing Caleb, what you guys do, I, now I know you were lured to the skies very early in your career, but how did you kinda land on this business? >>Yeah, so, you know, I've, I guess just a little bit about me for some people, you know, they don't necessarily know what they wanna do like early in their life. For me, I was five years old and I knew, you know, I want to be in the space industry. So, you know, I started in the air force, but have, uh, stayed in the space industry, my whole career and been a part of, uh, this is the fifth space startup that I've been a part of actually. So, you know, I've, I've, uh, kind of started out in satellites, did spent some time in working in, uh, the launch industry on rockets. Then, uh, now I'm here back in satellites and you know, honestly, this is the most exciting of the difference based startups. That I've been a part of >>Super interesting. Okay. Angelo, let's, let's talk about the Ruben observatory, ver C Ruben, famous woman scientist, you know, galaxy guru. Now you guys the observatory, you're up way up high. You're gonna get a good look at the Southern sky. Now I know COVID slowed you guys down a bit, but no doubt. You continued to code away on the software. I know you're getting close. You gotta be super excited. Give us the update on, on the observatory and your role. >>All right. So yeah, Rubin is a state of the art observatory that, uh, is in construction on a remote mountain in Chile. And, um, with Rubin, we conduct the, uh, large survey of space and time we are going to observe the sky with, uh, eight meter optical telescope and take, uh, a thousand pictures every night with a 3.2 gig up peaks of camera. And we are going to do that for 10 years, which is the duration of the survey. >>Yeah. Amazing project. Now you, you were a doctor of philosophy, so you probably spent some time thinking about what's out there and then you went out to earn a PhD in astronomy, in astrophysics. So this is something that you've been working on for the better part of your career, isn't it? >>Yeah, that's that's right. Uh, about 15 years, um, I studied physics in college, then I, um, got a PhD in astronomy and, uh, I worked for about five years in another project. Um, the dark energy survey before joining rubing in 2015. >>Yeah. Impressive. So it seems like you both, you know, your organizations are looking at space from two different angles. One thing you guys both have in common of course is, is, is software. And you both use InfluxDB as part of your, your data infrastructure. How did you discover influx DB get into it? How do you use the platform? Maybe Caleb, you could start. >>Uh, yeah, absolutely. So the first company that I extensively used, uh, influx DBN was a launch startup called, uh, Astra. And we were in the process of, uh, designing our, you know, our first generation rocket there and testing the engines, pumps, everything that goes into a rocket. Uh, and when I joined the company, our data story was not, uh, very mature. We were collecting a bunch of data in LabVIEW and engineers were taking that over to MATLAB to process it. Um, and at first there, you know, that's the way that a lot of engineers and scientists are used to working. Um, and at first that was, uh, like people weren't entirely sure that that was a, um, that that needed to change, but it's something the nice thing about InfluxDB is that, you know, it's so easy to deploy. So as the, our software engineering team was able to get it deployed and, you know, up and running very quickly and then quickly also backport all of the data that we collected thus far into influx and what, uh, was amazing to see. >>And as kind of the, the super cool moment with influx is, um, when we hooked that up to Grafana Grafana as the visualization platform we used with influx, cuz it works really well with it. Uh, there was like this aha moment of our engineers who are used to this post process kind of method for dealing with their data where they could just almost instantly easily discover data that they hadn't been able to see before and take the manual processes that they would run after a test and just throw those all in influx and have live data as tests were coming. And, you know, I saw them implementing like crazy rocket equation type stuff in influx, and it just was totally game changing for how we tested. >>So Angelo, I was explaining in my open, you know, you could, you could add a column in a traditional RDBMS and do time series, but with the volume of data that you're talking about, and the example of the Caleb just gave you, I mean, you have to have a purpose built time series database, where did you first learn about influx DB? >>Yeah, correct. So I work with the data management team, uh, and my first project was the record metrics that measured the performance of our software, uh, the software that we used to process the data. So I started implementing that in a relational database. Um, but then I realized that in fact, I was dealing with time series data and I should really use a solution built for that. And then I started looking at time series databases and I found influx B. And that was, uh, back in 2018. The another use for influx DB that I'm also interested is the visits database. Um, if you think about the observations we are moving the telescope all the time in pointing to specific directions, uh, in the Skype and taking pictures every 30 seconds. So that itself is a time series. And every point in that time series, uh, we call a visit. So we want to record the metadata about those visits and flex to, uh, that time here is going to be 10 years long, um, with about, uh, 1000 points every night. It's actually not too much data compared to other, other problems. It's, uh, really just a different, uh, time scale. >>The telescope at the Ruben observatory is like pun intended, I guess the star of the show. And I, I believe I read that it's gonna be the first of the next gen telescopes to come online. It's got this massive field of view, like three orders of magnitude times the Hub's widest camera view, which is amazing, right? That's like 40 moons in, in an image amazingly fast as well. What else can you tell us about the telescope? >>Um, this telescope, it has to move really fast and it also has to carry, uh, the primary mirror, which is an eight meter piece of glass. It's very heavy and it has to carry a camera, which has about the size of a small car. And this whole structure weighs about 300 tons for that to work. Uh, the telescope needs to be, uh, very compact and stiff. Uh, and one thing that's amazing about it's design is that the telescope, um, is 300 tons structure. It sits on a tiny film of oil, which has the diameter of, uh, human hair. And that makes an almost zero friction interface. In fact, a few people can move these enormous structure with only their hands. Uh, as you said, uh, another aspect that makes this telescope unique is the optical design. It's a wide field telescope. So each image has, uh, in diameter the size of about seven full moons. And, uh, with that, we can map the entire sky in only, uh, three days. And of course doing operations everything's, uh, controlled by software and it is automatic. Um there's a very complex piece of software, uh, called the scheduler, which is responsible for moving the telescope, um, and the camera, which is, uh, recording 15 terabytes of data every night. >>Hmm. And, and, and Angela, all this data lands in influx DB. Correct. And what are you doing with, with all that data? >>Yeah, actually not. Um, so we are using flex DB to record engineering data and metadata about the observations like telemetry events and commands from the telescope. That's a much smaller data set compared to the images, but it is still challenging because, uh, you, you have some high frequency data, uh, that the system needs to keep up and we need to, to start this data and have it around for the lifetime of the price. Mm, >>Got it. Thank you. Okay, Caleb, let's bring you back in and can tell us more about the, you got these dishwasher size satellites. You're kind of using a multi-tenant model. I think it's genius, but, but tell us about the satellites themselves. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, we have in space, some satellites already that as you said, are like dishwasher, mini fridge kind of size. Um, and we're working on a bunch more that are, you know, a variety of sizes from shoebox to, I guess, a few times larger than what we have today. Uh, and it is, we do shoot to have effectively something like a multi-tenant model where, uh, we will buy a bus off the shelf. The bus is, uh, what you can kind of think of as the core piece of the satellite, almost like a motherboard or something where it's providing the power. It has the solar panels, it has some radios attached to it. Uh, it handles the attitude control, basically steers the spacecraft in orbit. And then we build also in house, what we call our payload hub, which is, has all, any customer payloads attached and our own kind of edge processing sort of capabilities built into it. >>And, uh, so we integrate that. We launch it, uh, and those things, because they're in lower orbit, they're orbiting the earth every 90 minutes. That's, you know, seven kilometers per second, which is several times faster than a speeding bullet. So we've got, we have, uh, one of the unique challenges of operating spacecraft and lower orbit is that generally you can't talk to them all the time. So we're managing these things through very brief windows of time, uh, where we get to talk to them through our ground sites, either in Antarctica or, you know, in the north pole region. >>Talk more about how you use influx DB to make sense of this data through all this tech that you're launching into space. >>We basically previously we started off when I joined the company, storing all of that as Angelo did in a regular relational database. And we found that it was, uh, so slow in the size of our data would balloon over the course of a couple days to the point where we weren't able to even store all of the data that we were getting. Uh, so we migrated to influx DB to store our time series telemetry from the spacecraft. So, you know, that's things like, uh, power level voltage, um, currents counts, whatever, whatever metadata we need to monitor about the spacecraft. We now store that in, uh, in influx DB. Uh, and that has, you know, now we can actually easily store the entire volume of data for the mission life so far without having to worry about, you know, the size bloating to an unmanageable amount. >>And we can also seamlessly query, uh, large chunks of data. Like if I need to see, you know, for example, as an operator, I might wanna see how my, uh, battery state of charge is evolving over the course of the year. I can have a plot and an influx that loads that in a fraction of a second for a year's worth of data, because it does, you know, intelligent, um, I can intelligently group the data by, uh, sliding time interval. Uh, so, you know, it's been extremely powerful for us to access the data and, you know, as time has gone on, we've gradually migrated more and more of our operating data into influx. >>You know, let's, let's talk a little bit, uh, uh, but we throw this term around a lot of, you know, data driven, a lot of companies say, oh, yes, we're data driven, but you guys really are. I mean, you' got data at the core, Caleb, what does that, what does that mean to you? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think the, and the clearest example of when I saw this be like totally game changing is what I mentioned before at Astro where our engineer's feedback loop went from, you know, a lot of kind of slow researching, digging into the data to like an instant instantaneous, almost seeing the data, making decisions based on it immediately, rather than having to wait for some processing. And that's something that I've also seen echoed in my current role. Um, but to give another practical example, uh, as I said, we have a huge amount of data that comes down every orbit, and we need to be able to ingest all of that data almost instantaneously and provide it to the operator. And near real time, you know, about a second worth of latency is all that's acceptable for us to react to, to see what is coming down from the spacecraft and building that pipeline is challenging from a software engineering standpoint. >>Um, our primary language is Python, which isn't necessarily that fast. So what we've done is started, you know, in the, in the goal of being data driven is publish metrics on individual, uh, how individual pieces of our data processing pipeline are performing into influx as well. And we do that in production as well as in dev. Uh, so we have kind of a production monitoring, uh, flow. And what that has done is allow us to make intelligent decisions on our software development roadmap, where it makes the most sense for us to, uh, focus our development efforts in terms of improving our software efficiency. Uh, just because we have that visibility into where the real problems are. Um, it's sometimes we've found ourselves before we started doing this kind of chasing rabbits that weren't necessarily the real root cause of issues that we were seeing. Uh, but now, now that we're being a bit more data driven, there we are being much more effective in where we're spending our resources and our time, which is especially critical to us as we scale to, from supporting a couple satellites, to supporting many, many satellites at >>Once. Yeah. Coach. So you reduced those dead ends, maybe Angela, you could talk about what, what sort of data driven means to, to you and your teams? >>I would say that, um, having, uh, real time visibility, uh, to the telemetry data and, and metrics is, is, is crucial for us. We, we need, we need to make sure that the image that we collect with the telescope, uh, have good quality and, um, that they are within the specifications, uh, to meet our science goals. And so if they are not, uh, we want to know that as soon as possible and then, uh, start fixing problems. >>Caleb, what are your sort of event, you know, intervals like? >>So I would say that, you know, as of today on the spacecraft, the event, the, the level of timing that we deal with probably tops out at about, uh, 20 Hertz, 20 measurements per second on, uh, things like our, uh, gyroscopes, but the, you know, I think the, the core point here of the ability to have high precision data is extremely important for these kinds of scientific applications. And I'll give an example, uh, from when I worked at, on the rocket at Astra there, our baseline data rate that we would ingest data during a test is, uh, 500 Hertz. So 500 samples per second. And in some cases we would actually, uh, need to ingest much higher rate data, even up to like 1.5 kilohertz. So, uh, extremely, extremely high precision, uh, data there where timing really matters a lot. And, uh, you know, I can, one of the really powerful things about influx is the fact that it can handle this. >>That's one of the reasons we chose it, uh, because there's times when we're looking at the results of a firing where you're zooming in, you know, I talked earlier about how on my current job, we often zoom out to look, look at a year's worth of data. You're zooming in to where your screen is preoccupied by a tiny fraction of a second. And you need to see same thing as Angela just said, not just the actual telemetry, which is coming in at a high rate, but the events that are coming out of our controllers. So that can be something like, Hey, I opened this valve at exactly this time and that goes, we wanna have that at, you know, micro or even nanosecond precision so that we know, okay, we saw a spike in chamber pressure at, you know, at this exact moment, was that before or after this valve open, those kind of, uh, that kind of visibility is critical in these kind of scientific, uh, applications and absolutely game changing to be able to see that in, uh, near real time and, uh, with a really easy way for engineers to be able to visualize this data themselves without having to wait for, uh, software engineers to go build it for them. >>Can the scientists do self-serve or are you, do you have to design and build all the analytics and, and queries for your >>Scientists? Well, I think that's, that's absolutely from, from my perspective, that's absolutely one of the best things about influx and what I've seen be game changing is that, uh, generally I'd say anyone can learn to use influx. Um, and honestly, most of our users might not even know they're using influx, um, because what this, the interface that we expose to them is Grafana, which is, um, a generic graphing, uh, open source graphing library that is very similar to influx own chronograph. Sure. And what it does is, uh, let it provides this, uh, almost it's a very intuitive UI for building your queries. So you choose a measurement and it shows a dropdown of available measurements. And then you choose a particular, the particular field you wanna look at. And again, that's a dropdown, so it's really easy for our users to discover. And there's kind of point and click options for doing math aggregations. You can even do like perfect kind of predictions all within Grafana, the Grafana user interface, which is really just a wrapper around the APIs and functionality of the influx provides putting >>Data in the hands of those, you know, who have the context of domain experts is, is key. Angela, is it the same situation for you? Is it self serve? >>Yeah, correct. Uh, as I mentioned before, um, we have the astronomers making their own dashboards because they know what exactly what they, they need to, to visualize. Yeah. I mean, it's all about using the right tool for the job. I think, uh, for us, when I joined the company, we weren't using influx DB and we, we were dealing with serious issues of the database growing to an incredible size extremely quickly, and being unable to like even querying short periods of data was taking on the order of seconds, which is just not possible for operations >>Guys. This has been really formative it's, it's pretty exciting to see how the edge is mountaintops, lower orbits to be space is the ultimate edge. Isn't it. I wonder if you could answer two questions to, to wrap here, you know, what comes next for you guys? Uh, and is there something that you're really excited about that, that you're working on Caleb, maybe you could go first and an Angela, you can bring us home. >>Uh, basically what's next for loft. Orbital is more, more satellites, a greater push towards infrastructure and really making, you know, our mission is to make space simple for our customers and for everyone. And we're scaling the company like crazy now, uh, making that happen, it's extremely exciting and extremely exciting time to be in this company and to be in this industry as a whole, because there are so many interesting applications out there. So many cool ways of leveraging space that, uh, people are taking advantage of. And with, uh, companies like SpaceX and the now rapidly lowering cost, cost of launch, it's just a really exciting place to be. And we're launching more satellites. We are scaling up for some constellations and our ground system has to be improved to match. So there's a lot of, uh, improvements that we're working on to really scale up our control software, to be best in class and, uh, make it capable of handling such a large workload. So >>You guys hiring >><laugh>, we are absolutely hiring. So, uh, I would in we're we need, we have PE positions all over the company. So, uh, we need software engineers. We need people who do more aerospace, specific stuff. So, uh, absolutely. I'd encourage anyone to check out the loft orbital website, if there's, if this is at all interesting. >>All right. Angela, bring us home. >>Yeah. So what's next for us is really, uh, getting this, um, telescope working and collecting data. And when that's happen is going to be just, um, the Lu of data coming out of this camera and handling all, uh, that data is going to be really challenging. Uh, yeah. I wanna wanna be here for that. <laugh> I'm looking forward, uh, like for next year we have like an important milestone, which is our, um, commissioning camera, which is a simplified version of the, of the full camera it's going to be on sky. And so yeah, most of the system has to be working by them. >>Nice. All right, guys, you know, with that, we're gonna end it. Thank you so much, really fascinating, and thanks to influx DB for making this possible, really groundbreaking stuff, enabling value creation at the edge, you know, in the cloud and of course, beyond at the space. So really transformational work that you guys are doing. So congratulations and really appreciate the broader community. I can't wait to see what comes next from having this entire ecosystem. Now, in a moment, I'll be back to wrap up. This is Dave ante, and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Welcome Telegraph is a popular open source data collection. Agent Telegraph collects data from hundreds of systems like IOT sensors, cloud deployments, and enterprise applications. It's used by everyone from individual developers and hobbyists to large corporate teams. The Telegraph project has a very welcoming and active open source community. Learn how to get involved by visiting the Telegraph GitHub page, whether you want to contribute code, improve documentation, participate in testing, or just show what you're doing with Telegraph. We'd love to hear what you're building. >>Thanks for watching. Moving the world with influx DB made possible by influx data. I hope you learn some things and are inspired to look deeper into where time series databases might fit into your environment. If you're dealing with large and or fast data volumes, and you wanna scale cost effectively with the highest performance and you're analyzing metrics and data over time times, series databases just might be a great fit for you. Try InfluxDB out. You can start with a free cloud account by clicking on the link and the resources below. Remember all these recordings are gonna be available on demand of the cube.net and influx data.com. So check those out and poke around influx data. They are the folks behind InfluxDB and one of the leaders in the space, we hope you enjoyed the program. This is Dave Valante for the cube. We'll see you soon.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're now going to go into the customer panel. And we'd like to welcome Angelo Fausti, who's software engineer at the Vera C Rubin Observatory, and Caleb Maclachlan, who's senior spacecraft operations software engineer at Loft Orbital. Guys, thanks for joining us. You don't want to miss folks, this interview. Caleb, let's start with you. You work for an extremely cool company. You're launching satellites into space. Cause doing that is highly complex and not a cheap endeavor. Tell us about Loft Orbital and what you guys do to attack that problem? >> Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having me here, by the way. So Loft Orbital is a company that's a series B startup now. And our mission basically is to provide rapid access to space for all kinds of customers. Historically, if you want to fly something in space, do something in space, it's extremely expensive. You need to book a launch, build a bus, hire a team to operate it, have big software teams, and then eventually worry about a lot of very specialized engineering. And what we're trying to do is, change that from a super specialized problem that has an extremely high barrier of access to a infrastructure problem. So that it's almost as simple as deploying a VM in AWS or GCP, as getting your programs, your mission deployed on orbit, with access to different sensors, cameras, radios, stuff like that. So that's kind of our mission. And just to give a really brief example of the kind of customer that we can serve. There's a really cool company called Totum labs, who is working on building an IoT constellation, for Internet of Things. Basically being able to get telemetry from all over the world. They're the first company to demonstrate indoor IoT, which means you have this little modem inside a container. A container that you track from anywhere on the world as it's going across the ocean. So it's really little. And they've been able to stay small startup that's focused on their product, which is that super crazy, complicated, cool radio, while we handle the whole space segment for them, which just, before Loft was really impossible. So that's our mission is, providing space infrastructure as a service. We are kind of groundbreaking in this area, and we're serving a huge variety of customers with all kinds of different missions, and obviously, generating a ton of data in space that we've got to handle. >> Yeah, so amazing, Caleb, what you guys do. I know you were lured to the skies very early in your career, but how did you kind of land in this business? >> Yeah, so I guess just a little bit about me. For some people, they don't necessarily know what they want to do, early in their life. For me, I was five years old and I knew, I want to be in the space industry. So I started in the Air Force, but have stayed in the space industry my whole career and been a part of, this is the fifth space startup that I've been a part of, actually. So I've kind of started out in satellites, did spend some time in working in the launch industry on rockets. Now I'm here back in satellites. And honestly, this is the most exciting of the different space startups that I've been a part of. So, always been passionate about space and basically writing software for operating in space for basically extending how we write software into orbit. >> Super interesting. Okay, Angelo. Let's talk about the Rubin Observatory Vera C. Rubin, famous woman scientists, Galaxy guru, Now you guys, the observatory are up, way up high, you're going to get a good look at the southern sky. I know COVID slowed you guys down a bit. But no doubt you continue to code away on the software. I know you're getting close. You got to be super excited. Give us the update on the observatory and your role. >> All right. So yeah, Rubin is state of the art observatory that is in construction on a remote mountain in Chile. And with Rubin we'll conduct the large survey of space and time. We are going to observe the sky with eight meter optical telescope and take 1000 pictures every night with 3.2 gigapixel camera. And we're going to do that for 10 years, which is the duration of the survey. The goal is to produce an unprecedented data set. Which is going to be about .5 exabytes of image data. And from these images will detect and measure the properties of billions of astronomical objects. We are also building a science platform that's hosted on Google Cloud, so that the scientists and the public can explore this data to make discoveries. >> Yeah, amazing project. Now, you aren't a Doctor of Philosophy. So you probably spent some time thinking about what's out there. And then you went on to earn a PhD in astronomy and astrophysics. So this is something that you've been working on for the better part of your career, isn't it? >> Yeah, that's right. About 15 years. I studied physics in college, then I got a PhD in astronomy. And I worked for about five years in another project, the Dark Energy survey before joining Rubin in 2015. >> Yeah, impressive. So it seems like both your organizations are looking at space from two different angles. One thing you guys both have in common, of course, is software. And you both use InfluxDB as part of your data infrastructure. How did you discover InfluxDB, get into it? How do you use the platform? Maybe Caleb, you can start. >> Yeah, absolutely. So the first company that I extensively used InfluxDB in was a launch startup called Astra. And we were in the process of designing our first generation rocket there and testing the engines, pumps. Everything that goes into a rocket. And when I joined the company, our data story was not very mature. We were collecting a bunch of data in LabVIEW. And engineers were taking that over to MATLAB to process it. And at first, that's the way that a lot of engineers and scientists are used to working. And at first that was, like, people weren't entirely sure that, that needed to change. But it's something, the nice thing about InfluxDB is that, it's so easy to deploy. So our software engineering team was able to get it deployed and up and running very quickly and then quickly also backport all of the data that we've collected thus far into Influx. And what was amazing to see and it's kind of the super cool moment with Influx is, when we hooked that up to Grafana, Grafana, is the visualization platform we use with influx, because it works really well with it. There was like this aha moment of our engineers who are used to this post process kind of method for dealing with their data, where they could just almost instantly, easily discover data that they hadn't been able to see before. And take the manual processes that they would run after a test and just throw those all in Influx and have live data as tests were coming. And I saw them implementing crazy rocket equation type stuff in Influx and it just was totally game changing for how we tested. And things that previously it would be like run a test, then wait an hour for the engineers to crunch the data and then we run another test with some changed parameters or a changed startup sequence or something like that, became, by the time the test is over, the engineers know what the next step is, because they have this just like instant game changing access to data. So since that experience, basically everywhere I've gone, every company since then, I've been promoting InfluxDB and using it and spinning it up and quickly showing people how simple and easy it is. >> Yeah, thank you. So Angelo, I was explaining in my open that, you know you could add a column in a traditional RDBMS and do time series. But with the volume of data that you're talking about in the example that Caleb just gave, you have to have a purpose built time series database. Where did you first learn about InfluxDB? >> Yeah, correct. So I worked with the data management team and my first project was the record metrics that measure the performance of our software. The software that we use to process the data. So I started implementing that in our relational database. But then I realized that in fact, I was dealing with time series data. And I should really use a solution built for that. And then I started looking at time series databases and I found InfluxDB, that was back in 2018. Then I got involved in another project. To record telemetry data from the telescope itself. It's very challenging because you have so many subsystems and sensors, producing data. And with that data, the goal is to look at the telescope harder in real time so we can make decisions and make sure that everything's doing the right thing. And another use for InfluxDB that I'm also interested, is the visits database. If you think about the observations, we are moving the telescope all the time and pointing to specific directions in the sky and taking pictures every 30 seconds. So that itself is a time series. And every point in the time series, we call that visit. So we want to record the metadata about those visits in InfluxDB. That time series is going to be 10 years long, with about 1000 points every night. It's actually not too much data compared to the other problems. It's really just the different time scale. So yeah, we have plans on continuing using InfluxDB and finding new applications in the project. >> Yeah and the speed with which you can actually get high quality images. Angelo, my understanding is, you use InfluxDB, as you said, you're monitoring the telescope hardware and the software. And just say, some of the scientific data as well. The telescope at the Rubin Observatory is like, no pun intended, I guess, the star of the show. And I believe, I read that it's going to be the first of the next gen telescopes to come online. It's got this massive field of view, like three orders of magnitude times the Hubble's widest camera view, which is amazing. That's like 40 moons in an image, and amazingly fast as well. What else can you tell us about the telescope? >> Yeah, so it's really a challenging project, from the point of view of engineering. This telescope, it has to move really fast. And it also has to carry the primary mirror, which is an eight meter piece of glass, it's very heavy. And it has to carry a camera, which is about the size of a small car. And this whole structure weighs about 300 pounds. For that to work, the telescope needs to be very compact and stiff. And one thing that's amazing about its design is that the telescope, this 300 tons structure, it sits on a tiny film of oil, which has the diameter of human hair, in that brings an almost zero friction interface. In fact, a few people can move this enormous structure with only their hands. As you said, another aspect that makes this telescope unique is the optical design. It's a wide field telescope. So each image has, in diameter, the size of about seven full moons. And with that we can map the entire sky in only three days. And of course, during operations, everything's controlled by software, and it's automatic. There's a very complex piece of software called the scheduler, which is responsible for moving the telescope and the camera. Which will record the 15 terabytes of data every night. >> And Angelo, all this data lands in InfluxDB, correct? And what are you doing with all that data? >> Yeah, actually not. So we're using InfluxDB to record engineering data and metadata about the observations, like telemetry events and the commands from the telescope. That's a much smaller data set compared to the images. But it is still challenging because you have some high frequency data that the system needs to keep up and we need to store this data and have it around for the lifetime of the project. >> Hm. So at the mountain, we keep the data for 30 days. So the observers, they use Influx and InfluxDB instance, running there to analyze the data. But we also replicate the data to another instance running at the US data facility, where we have more computational resources and so more people can look at the data without interfering with the observations. Yeah, I have to say that InfluxDB has been really instrumental for us, and especially at this phase of the project where we are testing and integrating the different pieces of hardware. And it's not just the database, right. It's the whole platform. So I like to give this example, when we are doing this kind of task, it's hard to know in advance which dashboards and visualizations you're going to need, right. So what you really need is a data exploration tool. And with tools like chronograph, for example, having the ability to query and create dashboards on the fly was really a game changer for us. So astronomers, they typically are not software engineers, but they are the ones that know better than anyone, what needs to be monitored. And so they use chronograph and they can create the dashboards and the visualizations that they need. >> Got it. Thank you. Okay, Caleb, let's bring you back in. Tell us more about, you got these dishwasher size satellites are kind of using a multi tenant model. I think it's genius. But tell us about the satellites themselves. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we have in space, some satellites already. That, as you said, are like dishwasher, mini fridge kind of size. And we're working on a bunch more that are a variety of sizes from shoe box to I guess, a few times larger than what we have today. And it is, we do shoot to have, effectively something like a multi tenant model where we will buy a bus off the shelf, the bus is, what you can kind of think of as the core piece of the satellite, almost like a motherboard or something. Where it's providing the power, it has the solar panels, it has some radios attached to it, it handles the altitude control, basically steers the spacecraft in orbit. And then we build, also in house, what we call our payload hub, which is has all any customer payloads attached, and our own kind of edge processing sort of capabilities built into it. And so we integrate that, we launch it, and those things, because they're in low Earth orbit, they're orbiting the Earth every 90 minutes. That's seven kilometers per second, which is several times faster than a speeding bullet. So we've got, we have one of the unique challenges of operating spacecraft in lower Earth orbit is that generally you can't talk to them all the time. So we're managing these things through very brief windows of time. Where we get to talk to them through our ground sites, either in Antarctica or in the North Pole region. So we'll see them for 10 minutes, and then we won't see them for the next 90 minutes as they zip around the Earth collecting data. So one of the challenges that exists for a company like ours is, that's a lot of, you have to be able to make real time decisions operationally, in those short windows that can sometimes be critical to the health and safety of the spacecraft. And it could be possible that we put ourselves into a low power state in the previous orbit or something potentially dangerous to the satellite can occur. And so as an operator, you need to very quickly process that data coming in. And not just the the live data, but also the massive amounts of data that were collected in, what we call the back orbit, which is the time that we couldn't see the spacecraft. >> We got it. So talk more about how you use InfluxDB to make sense of this data from all those tech that you're launching into space. >> Yeah, so we basically, previously we started off, when I joined the company, storing all of that, as Angelo did, in a regular relational database. And we found that it was so slow, and the size of our data would balloon over the course of a couple of days to the point where we weren't able to even store all of the data that we were getting. So we migrated to InfluxDB to store our time series telemetry from the spacecraft. So that thing's like power level voltage, currents counts, whatever metadata we need to monitor about the spacecraft, we now store that in InfluxDB. And that has, you know, now we can actually easily store the entire volume of data for the mission life so far, without having to worry about the size bloating to an unmanageable amount. And we can also seamlessly query large chunks of data, like if I need to see, for example, as an operator, I might want to see how my battery state of charge is evolving over the course of the year, I can have a plot in an Influx that loads that in a fraction of a second for a year's worth of data, because it does, you know, intelligent. I can intelligently group the data by citing time interval. So it's been extremely powerful for us to access the data. And as time has gone on, we've gradually migrated more and more of our operating data into Influx. So not only do we store the basic telemetry about the bus and our payload hub, but we're also storing data for our customers, that our customers are generating on board about things like you know, one example of a customer that's doing something pretty cool. They have a computer on our satellite, which they can reprogram themselves to do some AI enabled edge compute type capability in space. And so they're sending us some metrics about the status of their workloads, in addition to the basics, like the temperature of their payload, their computer or whatever else. And we're delivering that data to them through Influx in a Grafana dashboard that they can plot where they can see, not only has this pipeline succeeded or failed, but also where was the spacecraft when this occurred? What was the voltage being supplied to their payload? Whatever they need to see, it's all right there for them. Because we're aggregating all that data in InfluxDB. >> That's awesome. You're measuring everything. Let's talk a little bit about, we throw this term around a lot, data driven. A lot of companies say, Oh, yes, we're data driven. But you guys really are. I mean, you got data at the core. Caleb, what does that what does that mean to you? >> Yeah, so you know, I think, the clearest example of when I saw this, be like totally game changing is, what I mentioned before it, at Astra, were our engineers feedback loop went from a lot of, kind of slow researching, digging into the data to like an instant, instantaneous, almost, Seeing the data, making decisions based on it immediately, rather than having to wait for some processing. And that's something that I've also seen echoed in my current role. But to give another practical example, as I said, we have a huge amount of data that comes down every orbit, and we need to be able to ingest all that data almost instantaneously and provide it to the operator in near real time. About a second worth of latency is all that's acceptable for us to react to. To see what is coming down from the spacecraft and building that pipeline is challenging, from a software engineering standpoint. Our primary language is Python, which isn't necessarily that fast. So what we've done is started, in the in the goal being data driven, is publish metrics on individual, how individual pieces of our data processing pipeline, are performing into Influx as well. And we do that in production as well as in dev. So we have kind of a production monitoring flow. And what that has done is, allow us to make intelligent decisions on our software development roadmap. Where it makes the most sense for us to focus our development efforts in terms of improving our software efficiency, just because we have that visibility into where the real problems are. At sometimes we've found ourselves, before we started doing this, kind of chasing rabbits that weren't necessarily the real root cause of issues that we were seeing. But now, that we're being a bit more data driven, there, we are being much more effective in where we're spending our resources and our time, which is especially critical to us as we scaled from supporting a couple of satellites to supporting many, many satellites at once. >> So you reduce those dead ends. Maybe Angela, you could talk about what sort of data driven means to you and your team? >> Yeah, I would say that having real time visibility, to the telemetry data and metrics is crucial for us. We need to make sure that the images that we collect, with the telescope have good quality and that they are within the specifications to meet our science goals. And so if they are not, we want to know that as soon as possible, and then start fixing problems. >> Yeah, so I mean, you think about these big science use cases, Angelo. They are extremely high precision, you have to have a lot of granularity, very tight tolerances. How does that play into your time series data strategy? >> Yeah, so one of the subsystems that produce the high volume and high rates is the structure that supports the telescope's primary mirror. So on that structure, we have hundreds of actuators that compensate the shape of the mirror for the formations. That's part of our active updated system. So that's really real time. And we have to record this high data rates, and we have requirements to handle data that are a few 100 hertz. So we can easily configure our database with milliseconds precision, that's for telemetry data. But for events, sometimes we have events that are very close to each other and then we need to configure database with higher precision. >> um hm For example, micro seconds. >> Yeah, so Caleb, what are your event intervals like? >> So I would say that, as of today on the spacecraft, the event, the level of timing that we deal with probably tops out at about 20 hertz, 20 measurements per second on things like our gyroscopes. But I think the core point here of the ability to have high precision data is extremely important for these kinds of scientific applications. And I'll give you an example, from when I worked on the rockets at Astra. There, our baseline data rate that we would ingest data during a test is 500 hertz, so 500 samples per second. And in some cases, we would actually need to ingest much higher rate data. Even up to like 1.5 kilohertz. So extremely, extremely high precision data there, where timing really matters a lot. And, I can, one of the really powerful things about Influx is the fact that it can handle this, that's one of the reasons we chose it. Because there's times when we're looking at the results of firing, where you're zooming in. I've talked earlier about how on my current job, we often zoom out to look at a year's worth of data. You're zooming in, to where your screen is preoccupied by a tiny fraction of a second. And you need to see, same thing, as Angelo just said, not just the actual telemetry, which is coming in at a high rate, but the events that are coming out of our controllers. So that can be something like, hey, I opened this valve at exactly this time. And that goes, we want to have that at micro or even nanosecond precision, so that we know, okay, we saw a spike in chamber pressure at this exact moment, was that before or after this valve open? That kind of visibility is critical in these kinds of scientific applications and absolutely game changing, to be able to see that in near real time. And with a really easy way for engineers to be able to visualize this data themselves without having to wait for us software engineers to go build it for them. >> Can the scientists do self serve? Or do you have to design and build all the analytics and queries for scientists? >> I think that's absolutely from my perspective, that's absolutely one of the best things about Influx, and what I've seen be game changing is that, generally, I'd say anyone can learn to use Influx. And honestly, most of our users might not even know they're using Influx. Because the interface that we expose to them is Grafana, which is generic graphing, open source graphing library that is very similar to Influx zone chronograph. >> Sure. >> And what it does is, it provides this, almost, it's a very intuitive UI for building your query. So you choose a measurement, and it shows a drop down of available measurements, and then you choose the particular field you want to look at. And again, that's a drop down. So it's really easy for our users to discover it. And there's kind of point and click options for doing math, aggregations. You can even do like, perfect kind of predictions all within Grafana. The Grafana user interface, which is really just a wrapper around the API's and functionality that Influx provides. So yes, absolutely, that's been the most powerful thing about it, is that it gets us out of the way, us software engineers, who may not know quite as much as the scientists and engineers that are closer to the interesting math. And they build these crazy dashboards that I'm just like, wow, I had no idea you could do that. I had no idea that, that is something that you would want to see. And absolutely, that's the most empowering piece. >> Yeah, putting data in the hands of those who have the context, the domain experts is key. Angelo is it the same situation for you? Is it self serve? >> Yeah, correct. As I mentioned before, we have the astronomers making their own dashboards, because they know exactly what they need to visualize. And I have an example just from last week. We had an engineer at the observatory that was building a dashboard to monitor the cooling system of the entire building. And he was familiar with InfluxQL, which was the primarily query language in version one of InfluxDB. And he had, that was really a challenge because he had all the data spread at multiple InfluxDB measurements. And he was like doing one query for each measurement and was not able to produce what he needed. And then, but that's the perfect use case for Flux, which is the new data scripting language that Influx data developed and introduced as the main language in version two. And so with Flux, he was able to combine data from multiple measurements and summarize this data in a nice table. So yeah, having more flexible and powerful language, also allows you to make better a visualization. >> So Angelo, where would you be without time series database, that technology generally, may be specifically InfluxDB, as one of the leading platforms. Would you be able to do this? >> Yeah, it's hard to imagine, doing what we are doing without InfluxDB. And I don't know, perhaps it would be just a matter of time to rediscover InfluxDB. >> Yeah. How about you Caleb? >> Yeah, I mean, it's all about using the right tool for the job. I think for us, when I joined the company, we weren't using InfluxDB and we were dealing with serious issues of the database growing to a an incredible size, extremely quickly. And being unable to, like even querying short periods of data, was taking on the order of seconds, which is just not possible for operations. So time series database is, if you're dealing with large volumes of time series data, Time series database is the right tool for the job and Influx is a great one for it. So, yeah, it's absolutely required to use for this kind of data, there is not really any other option. >> Guys, this has been really informative. It's pretty exciting to see, how the edge is mountain tops, lower Earth orbits. Space is the ultimate edge. Isn't it. I wonder if you could two questions to wrap here. What comes next for you guys? And is there something that you're really excited about? That you're working on. Caleb, may be you could go first and than Angelo you could bring us home. >> Yeah absolutely, So basically, what's next for Loft Orbital is more, more satellites a greater push towards infrastructure and really making, our mission is to make space simple for our customers and for everyone. And we're scaling the company like crazy now, making that happen. It's extremely exciting and extremely exciting time to be in this company and to be in this industry as a whole. Because there are so many interesting applications out there. So many cool ways of leveraging space that people are taking advantage of and with companies like SpaceX, now rapidly lowering cost of launch. It's just a really exciting place to be in. And we're launching more satellites. We're scaling up for some constellations and our ground system has to be improved to match. So there is a lot of improvements that we are working on to really scale up our control systems to be best in class and make it capable of handling such large workloads. So, yeah. What's next for us is just really 10X ing what we are doing. And that's extremely exciting. >> And anything else you are excited about? Maybe something personal? Maybe, you know, the titbit you want to share. Are you guys hiring? >> We're absolutely hiring. So, we've positions all over the company. So we need software engineers. We need people who do more aerospace specific stuff. So absolutely, I'd encourage anyone to check out the Loft Orbital website, if this is at all interesting. Personal wise, I don't have any interesting personal things that are data related. But my current hobby is sea kayaking, so I'm working on becoming a sea kayaking instructor. So if anyone likes to go sea kayaking out in the San Francisco Bay area, hopefully I'll see you out there. >> Love it. All right, Angelo, bring us home. >> Yeah. So what's next for us is, we're getting this telescope working and collecting data and when that's happened, it's going to be just a delish of data coming out of this camera. And handling all that data, is going to be a really challenging. Yeah, I wonder I might not be here for that I'm looking for it, like for next year we have an important milestone, which is our commissioning camera, which is a simplified version of the full camera, is going to be on sky and so most of the system has to be working by then. >> Any cool hobbies that you are working on or any side project? >> Yeah, actually, during the pandemic I started gardening. And I live here in Two Sun, Arizona. It gets really challenging during the summer because of the lack of water, right. And so, we have an automatic irrigation system at the farm and I'm trying to develop a small system to monitor the irrigation and make sure that our plants have enough water to survive. >> Nice. All right guys, with that we're going to end it. Thank you so much. Really fascinating and thanks to InfluxDB for making this possible. Really ground breaking stuff, enabling value at the edge, in the cloud and of course beyond, at the space. Really transformational work, that you guys are doing. So congratulations and I really appreciate the broader community. I can't wait to see what comes next from this entire eco system. Now in the moment, I'll be back to wrap up. This is Dave Vallante. And you are watching The cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks to the studio there for the handoff. Appreciate it, we're here for breaking news and it's exciting that we have Amol Phadke who's the Managing Director, Google is breaking some hard news here, Dave, so we want to bring him in and get commentary while we end out day two. Obviously, the story here is CLOUD CITY. We are in the CLOUD CITY. Amol, thanks for coming on remotely into our physical hybrid set here. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. I'm very excited to be here, virtually at MWC 21. >> Oh we got Bon Jovi ready to play. Everyone's waiting for that concert and you're the only thing standing between Bon Jovi and all the great stuff so. >> A lot of people watching. >> Thanks for coming on. Seriously you guys got some big news first Ericsson partners with you guys on 5G, platform deal with anthesis as well as open O-ran Alliance. You guys are joining huge testament to the industry. Obviously Google with all your innovation you guys have in the big three cloud hyperscalers. Obviously you guys invented SRE, so you know, you're no stranger to large scale. What's the news? Tell us why this Ericsson news is so important. Let's start with the Ericsson announcement. >> Sure, so, John, I mean, we are very excited today to finally bring to the market, the strategic partnership that we've been building with Ericsson for the last few months, the partnership, the reason we feel this is very important to the industry is we are actually doing this in conjunction with very large CSPs. So it's not done in isolation. You in fact saw in the press release that we have already launched something together with Telecom Italia in Italy. Because you will see that also in the press. And really the partnership is on three pillars. Number one, how can CSPs monetize 5G and Edge, which is a real team at the moment using Google Clouds solutions like the Edge computing platform and Anthos and Ericsson's cutting Edge 5G components, 5G solutions. And if we can onboard this together at the CSPs, such as Telecom Italia, that creates massive time to market efficiency. So that's point 1. Speed and agility is key John. But then point 2, it also unlocks a lot of Edge use cases for a bunch of verticals, retail, manufacturing, healthcare and so on. Which we are already starting to launch together with Ericsson. And so that's the second pillar. And then the final pillar of course, is this continuous wave of Cloud Native innovation that you just highlighted, John. We are going to try and double down on it between ourselves and Ericsson to really try and create this Cloud Native Application Suite for 5G over time. >> Talk about the innovations around Cloud, because the message we're hearing this year at Mobile World Congress is that the public cloud is driving the innovation and you know, I can be a little bit over the top and say, so the Telcos are slow, they're like glaciers, they move slow, but they're just moving packets. They are there, they're moving the network around. The innovation is happening on top. So there's some hardened operations operating the networks. Now you have a build concept, Cloud Native enables that. So you've got containers. You can put that, encapsulate that older technology and integrate it in. So this is not a rip and replace, someone has to die to win. This is a partnership with the Telco's. Can you share your thoughts on that piece? >> Spot on, John, spot on. We, we believe that it's a massive partnership opportunity. There's zero conflict or tensions in this sort of ecosystem. And the reason for that is, when you talk about that containerization and write once and deploy everywhere type architecture, that we are trying to do, that's where the Cloud Native be really helps. Like when you create Ericsson 5G solutions with the operators at Telecom Italia, once you build a solution, you don't have to worry about, do I need to go create that again and again for every deployment. As long as you have Anthos and Ericsson working, you should be able to have the same experience everywhere. >> Yeah, John and I talk all the time in theCUBE about how developers are really going to drive the Edge. You're clearly doing that with your Distributor Cloud, building out a Telco Cloud. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how you see that evolving and a lot of the AI that's done today is done in the cloud. A lot of modeling being done. When you think about Edge, you think about AI inferencing, you think about all these monetization opportunities. How are you thinking about that? >> Sure, so I think David first of all, it's a fantastic segue into how we are looking at analytics at the Edge, right? So we, we have realized that (connection disruption) is a very, very data computing, heavy operation. So certainly the training of the models is still going to stay in cloud for the foreseeable future. But the influencing part that you mentioned, is definitely something that we can offload to the Edge? Why is that so important? In the pandemic era think of running a shop or a factory floor, completely autonomously, needing zero minimal human intervention. And if you want to look at an assembly line and look at AI influencing as a way to find out assembly line defects on products and manufacturing. That's a very difficult problem to solve unless you actually create those influencing models at the Edge. So creating that ecosystem of an Ericsson and a Google Cloud and Telecom Italia type of carrier, gives you that Edge placement of the workloads that would fit right next to a factory floor in our manufacturing example. And then on top of that, you could run the AI influencing to really put in the hands of the manufacturer, a visual inspection capability to just bring this to life. >> Great, thank you for that and now the other piece of the announcement of course is the open, Open RAN. We've been talking about that all week. And you know, you well remember when Cloud first came out, people were concerned about security. And of course, now everybody's asking the question, can we still get the reliability and the security that we're used to with the Telcos? And of course over time we learned that you guys actually are pretty good at security. So how do you see the security component? Maybe first talk about the Open RAN piece, why that's important and how security fits? >> Sure, so first of all, Open RAN is something that we have taken great interest in the last year or so as it started evolving. And the reason for that is fairly simple Dave, this aggregation of networks has been happening for some time. In the radio layer, we believe that's the final frontier of sort of unlocking and desegregating that radio layer. And why is that so important? 80% of the operators spent globally is on radio across the entire infrastructure, 80% is on radio. If you disaggregate that and if you created synergies for your CSP partners and clients, that meant you have standard purpose hardware, standard purpose software with open interfaces, number one, massive difference in PCO. Number two, the supply chain gets streamlined and becomes a really, really simple way to manage a fairly large distribution, that's about to get larger with 5G and the capillarity that 5G needs. You're thinking of tens of thousands of micro cells and radio cells going everywhere. And having that kind of standardized hardware, software with open interfaces, is an extremely important cost dimension too. And on the revenue side, the things is that, the reason we got so excited with Open RAN was, you can now run a lot of API's on the radio net itself. That then suddenly brings a whole developer community on the radio layer. That then helps you do a bunch of things like closed loop automation for network optimization, as well as potentially looking at monetization opportunities by hyper personalizing yours and mine experiences at a device level, from the cell tower. And so that really is what is driving us towards this Open RAN type announcement. >> John: Amol, we've only got a minute and a half. I want to get your thoughts real quick on, on Open Source and the innovation. Danielle Royston, who's the CEO of TelcoDr. She's a keynote today. And she mentioned that the iPhone, 14 years ago was launched, okay. And you think about Open, and you mentioned proprietary with the 5G, and having O-RAN be more commodity and industry standard. That's going to lower the costs, increase the surface area of infrastructure. Everyone wins, 'cause everyone wants more connectivity options. Software is going to be the key to success for the telco industry, and Open Source is driving that. Is Android the playbook that you guys pioneered, obviously at Google with phones was very successful. How is that a playbook or an indicator to what could happen at Telco? >> Absolutely John and the parallel analogy that you raised is spot on. We believe in the Telco world Anthos multi-cloud as a unifying software development layer and the app development platform is the way that people will start to drive this innovation. Whether it's a radio or whether it's in the core or whether it's on the IT side of house. Same software running everywhere. That really allows you that whole CICD SRE type development models that we are familiar with, but on the telecom side. And that's where we are seeing some massive innovation opportunities for start, that would be for systems to come on. >> John: That's great stuff. And I was, just heard someone in the hallway just yesterday and say, you want to be the smartphone. You don't want to be the Blackberry going forward. That's pretty much the consensus here at Mobile World Congress. Amol, thank you for coming on and sharing the hard news with Google. Congratulations on the Ericsson Anthos platform deal as well as the Open Ran Alliance. Congratulations, good to see you. And by the way, you'll be keynoting tomorrow on theCUBE featured segments. So, watch that interview. >> Thank you John. Glad to be here. >> Thanks Amol. Managing Director, Telecom Industry Solutions at Google, obviously player, he's managing that business. Big opportunities for Google because they have the technology to get the chops Dave, and we're going to now, bring on Danielle Royston, she's here, I want to bring her up on the stage. Bon Jovi's about to go on, behind us, Bon Jovi's here. And this is like a nightclub, small intimate setting here in CLOUD CITY. Dave, Bon Jovi is right there. He's going to come on stage after we close down here, but first let's bring up the CEO of TelcoDR, Danielle Royston, great to see you. She's hot off the keynote. We're going to see you have a mic. Great to see you. >> Oh, it's great to be here, awesome. >> We are going to see you tomorrow for an official unpacking of the keynote but thanks for coming by and closing, swinging by. >> I know we're closing down the show. It's been a big, it's been a big day today at MWC and in CLOUD CITY. >> And Bon Jovi by the way. >> Day two, I mean really starting to get packed. >> And I mean, everyone's coming in, the band's warming up. You can kind of hear it. I think Elon Musk is about to go on as well. So I mean, it's really happening. >> A lot of buzz about CLOUD CITY out there in the hallway. >> Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think everyone's talking about it. I'm really, really excited >> Awesome. >> with how it's going, so yeah. >> Well, this is awesome, while we got you here, we want to put you to work being theCUBE analyst for this segment. You just heard Google. We broke them in for a breaking news segment. Obviously, so hard news Ericsson partnership. We're in the, actually former Ericsson booth. They're not even here, it's now the TelcoDR booth. But that's and then Open RAN again, Open Source. You got 5G, you got Open Source all happening. What's your take on this, as you're seeing this? >> Yeah, I think, you know, there's two big, and I talked about in my keynote this morning, there's two big technological changes that are happening in our industry simultaneously. And I don't think we could have had it--MWC 21 I certainly wanted to make it about the Public Cloud. I think I'm sort of successful in doing that. And I think the other piece is Open RAN, right? And I think these two big shifts are happening and I'm really thrilled about it. And so, yeah, we saw these two. >> I loved your keynote, we were here live Chloe was here filling in for Dave while Dave was going to do some research and getting some breaking stories. But you are on stage and, and we were talking, Chloe's like, these there's trillions of dollars, John on the table. And I was making the point, that the money's in the middle of the table and it's changing hands. If people don't watch it. And then you onstage said there's trillions of dollars. This is a real competitive shift with dollars on the table. And you've got cultural collision. You've got operators and builders trying to figure out, it feels like Dev Ops is coming in here. >> Yeah. >> I mean, what's the, what's the holistic vibe. What's the, what do you? >> Yeah, I think my message is about, we can use the software and specifically the software, the Public Cloud, to double your ARPU without massive CapEx expenditure. And I think the CSPs has always viewed to get the increase in ARPU, I got to build out the network, I got to spend a lot of money. And with these two technologies that require might be dropped. And then in exchange for doubling our ARPU, why not? We should do that absolutely. >> You know, your message has been pretty clear that you got to get on, on the wave. Got to ride the wave or become driftwood, as John said yesterday. And I think it's pretty, it's becoming pretty clear that that's the case for the Telcos. I feel like Danielle, that they entering this decade, perhaps with a little bit more humility than they have in the past. And then, you know, maybe, especially as it relates to developers, we're just talking about building out the Edge. We always talk about how developers are really going to be a key factor in the Edge and that's not a wheelhouse necessarily. But, obviously they're going to have to partner for that to have, they're going to have to embrace Cloud Native. I mean, it's pretty clear that your premise is right on. We'll see how long it takes, but if it, if they don't move fast, you know, what's going to happen. >> Well, I think you look at it from the enterprise's perspective. And we just heard Google talking about it. We need to provide a tech stack that the enterprises can write to. Now, historically they haven't had this opportunity. Historically that CSPs have provided it. Now you're going to be able to write against Google's tech stack. And that's something that is documented, it's available. There's developers out there that know it. And so I think that's the big opportunity. And this might be the, the big use case that they've been looking for with 5G and looking forward to 6G. And so it's a huge opportunity for CSPs to do that. >> I think that's an important point because you've got to place bets. And if I'm betting on Google or Amazon, Microsoft, okay, those are pretty safe bets, right? Those guys are going to be around. >> You think, I mean, they're like, no, don't trust the hyperscalers. And like, are you guys nuts? They're safe bets. >> Safe bets in terms of your investment in technology, now you've got to move fast. >> Yeah. >> That's the other piece of it. >> Yeah. >> You got to change your business model. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Well, you got to be in the right side of history too. I mean, I mean, what is trust actually really mean? Does Snowflake trust Amazon? It sure did to get them where they are, but now they're looking at other options. >> That is a great example, John. It really is, because there's a company that can move fast, but the same time they compete, but the same time they add incremental value. >> And so here you can see the narrative like, oh no, we're partnering, Telcos aren't bad. No one needs to die to bring in the new. Well containers do, will help them manage that operational legacy, but culturally, if they don't move, they're going to have an asset that'll get rolled up into a SPAC or some sort of private equity deal. And because the old model of building CapEx and extract rents is kind of shifting because the value's shifting. So to me, I think this is what we're watching still kind of unknown. Danielle, love to get your thoughts on this, because if the value shifts to services, which is a consumption model like cloud, >> Yeah. >> Then you can, don't have to try to extract the rents out of the CapEx or, what's your thought, I mean. >> Yeah, I don't think you need to own the entire stack to provide value. And I think that's where we are today in Telco, right. There, I mean, nuts and bolts of the stack, the servers, you know, the cabling, everything. And I'm like, stand on the shoulders of these amazing tech giants that have solved, you know, mega data centers, right? Huge data centers at scale, and just leverage their investment and for your own benefit and start to focus, and we heard Amol talking about it, starts to focus on your subscriber and driving a great experience for us, right, yeah. >> Well, you've talking about that many times that you exhibit, you're right. If the conversation has been, has to go beyond, okay, we're just connectivity. It's got to be going to be like, oh, it's $10 a month for roaming charges, ah great. >> Yeah. >> Tick that box. Right, it's those value added services that you're talking about. And it's an infinite number of those that can be developed. And that's where the partnerships come in, and creativity in the industry. It's just a blank piece of paper. >> Well, we, you know, everyone thinks Google knows everything about you, right? We've had the experience on our phone where they're serving up ads and you're like, how did it? >> Facebook does? >> Right, Facebook. But you know who knows more about us than, than Google or your mother even, your Telco. >> Yeah. >> You take your phone with you everywhere, right? And so it's time to start unlocking all of that knowledge and using it to provide a really great experience. >> And by the way, congratulations on the CEO to Totogi and the investment hundred million dollars. That's a game changer statement again, back to the billing and the there's a good, there's a whole new team, even all up and down the stack of solutions, great stuff. And I want to unpack that tomorrow. I want to hold that, we're going to meet tomorrow. I want to, I want to, leave that here. >> Stay in the data for a second, because you made the point before in your keynote as well. That, it's that it's the data that drives the value of these companies. Why is it that Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook now trillion dollar valuations. >> Yeah. >> It's all about the data and the Telco's have the data, but they can't figure out how to turn that into valuation. >> I think there's two parts of the data problem, which is number one, the data is trapped in on-premise, siloed systems that are not open. You can't connect them, and you certainly do it without, and we talked about it, I think yesterday, you know, millions of dollars of expenditure. And I think the other piece that's really interesting is that it's not connected to a mechanism to get it out in a timely manner, right? This is data that's aging by the minute. And when it takes you weeks to get the insight , it's useless, right? And so to Totogi, we announced the launch of Totogi, I'll get a little to Totogi plug in there, right. Totogi is connecting that insight to the charger, to the engagement engine and getting it out to subscribers. I think that's the beginning of this connection. I think it's a hard problem to solve it would have been solved already. But I think the key is leveraging the Public Cloud to get your data out of on-premise and, and mashing it up against these great services that Google and Azure and Amazon provide to drive it into the hands of the subscriber, make it very actionable, very monetizeable right at the end, that's what they want. More ARPU, more revenue, right. And you know, we've heard some keynotes from GSMA yesterday, some big, big guys, you know, talking about how, you know, it's not fair that these other communication platforms are not regulated. You know, Telco is heavily regulated and they're like, it's not fair. And I'm like, yep, it's not fair. That's life, right? >> Yeah. >> Stop complaining about it and start treating your customers better. So they're happy to give you more money. >> Yeah, and I think that's the message about the assets too. But one thing I will say, this Mobile World Congress, is that we've been having a lot of fun here in CLOUD CITY. I have to ask you a personal question. Have you been having fun? You look great on the keynote. You have a spring to your step. CLOUD CITY is beautiful, spectacular here. >> Yeah. >> Give us some highlights, personal highlights from your trip so far. >> Well number one, I'm, I'm psyched that the keynote is delivered in and done. I mean, I think it takes my blood pressure down a bunch. You know, the spring in my step, I wore these fun little tennis shoes and that was really fun. But yeah, I'm having, I'm having, I think a lot of things, great conversations. Yes the attendance is reduced. You know, usually you see hundreds of people from the big group carriers, especially the European groups. And yeah the attendance is reduced, but the senior guys are here, right? The senior leadership teams are in the booth. We're having meetings, we're having amazing conversations. I think the last year we really did live a decade in one year. I think they woke up to the power of the Public Cloud. >> Yeah, the pandemic helped. >> I mean, there was no way that they got business done without cloud based tools. And I think the light bulb went off. I think I'm right in the right moment. It's Awesome. >> Do you think that, do you think that they'll think in there, like left money on the table because you look at the pandemic, there were three categories of companies, losers, people who held the line, struggled and then winners. >> Yeah. >> Big time tale wind, booming. Obviously the Zooms of the world. Telco's did well. They were up and running, business was good. You think they might've left some money on the table? They could have done more. >> Yeah, I think the ones that were, you know, people talk about digital transformation. We're digital Telco, we're digitally enabled. And I think the pandemic really tested this, right. Can you deliver a contactless SIM? Or do you need to go to a store, in person, to get to go pick it up? And I had a broken SIM during the pandemic. My provider made me go to the store and I'm like, is it even open? And so I heard other stories of Telcos that were very digitally enabled, right. They were using Uber to deliver sims, and all sorts of fun, crazy stuff and new ideas. And they were able to pivot. >> Agile. >> Right, agile. And so I think, I think that was a really big wake up call. >> Telemedicine booming. >> So If you were in a digital business during the pandemic. In general, you're out of business, maybe unless you were a Telco, but I think you're right. I think the light bulb went off. It was an aha moment. And they said, oh-oh, if we don't move. >> I mean, I am not kidding right. As an ex-CEO where I was trying to collect signatures on renewals, right. Here's a DocuSign, which for the world is like, duh. I mean, our school uses DocuSign. I had telcos that required an in-person signature, >> Facts. >> Right, in some country, once a month on Tuesday between 10 and 2. And I'm like, how are you doing business, like that? That's like the dark ages. >> Yeah, this is where the crypto guys got it right, with know your customer. >> Yeah, right. >> 'Cause they have the data. >> Well, they had to, they had to. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot of things that's going wrong on crypto, we don't want to, we could do a whole show on that. But Danielle great to have you drop by, obviously Bon Jovi's here. How did you get Bon Jovi? Huge fan, New Jersey boy, Patriot's fan. >> Yeah. >> Dave, we love him. >> Fantastic. >> Well, I mean, who doesn't love Bon Jovi, right? We knew we wanted a rocker, right. Rock and roll is all about challenging the status quo. That, I mean, since the beginning and that's what we're doing here, right. We're really challenging like the way things have been done in Telco. Kind of just shattering the glass ceiling in lots of different ways, right. Calling the old guys dinosaurs. I'm sure those guys love me, right. I mean, how much do they hate me right now? Or they're like that girl, oh, so. >> Well we are punk rock. They're rock and roll. >> Right, right. I mean, maybe we should have gotten The Clash, right. Black Flag, right. I'm a little bit older than you. >> Bon Jovi's good. >> Right, we'll go with Bon Jovi. >> We like both of them. >> Accessible, right. >> Once's more conservative rock and roll still edgy. >> Yeah, so really excited to get them here. I've met him before. And so hopefully he'll remember me. It's been a couple of years since I've seen him. So can't wait to connect with him again. I think we have Elon Musk coming up and that's going to be, it's always exciting to hear that guy talk, so yeah. >> Yeah, he's going to be inspiration he'll talk space, SpaceX, >> Oh yeah. >> And possibly Starlink. >> Talking about the edge. >> Starlink, right. >> Starlink. >> I mean, those guys are launching rockets and deploying satellites and I think that's really interesting for rural. For rural right in Telco, right. Being able to deploy very quickly in rural where the, maybe the cost, you know, per gig doesn't make sense. You know, the cost for deployment of tower, I think. I mean, that's an interesting idea right there, yeah. >> It's exciting, he's inspirational. I think a lot of people look at the younger generation coming in and saying why are we doing things? A lot of people are questioning and they see the cloud. They're saying, oh, A or B, why are we doing this? This is such an easier, better way. >> Yeah. >> I think eventually the generation shifts in time. >> It's coming. I'm so excited to be a part of it, yeah. >> Great, great leadership. And I want to say that you are real innovative, glad to have us here and presenting with you here. >> Awesome team. >> I'm excited to have you guys. We talked last night about how great this partnership is, so thank you so much, yeah. >> TheCUBE, theCUBE's rocking inside the CLOUD CITY. The streets of the CLOUD CITY are hustling and booming. >> Packed. >> Packed in here. All stuff, great stuff. Thanks for coming on. >> Yep, thanks so much. >> Bon Jovi is here, we got a shot of Bon Jovi. Do we have a screenshot of Bon Jovi? >> Yeah, there it is. >> There it is, yeah. >> Okay, he's about to come on stage and we're going to take a break here. We're going to take and send it back to Adam and the team in the studio. Thanks guys.

>>Hi lisa martin here with the cubes coverage of demon 2021. I've got to alumni joining me. Please welcome back to the cube Danny. Alan beam's ceo Danny. It's great to see you. >>I am delighted to be here lisa. >>Excellent brian Schwartz is here as well. Google director outbound product management brian welcome back to the program. Uh >>thanks for having me again. Excited to be >>here. Excited to be here. Yes, definitely. We're gonna be talking all about what Demon google are doing today. But let's go ahead and start Danny with you. Seems vision is to be the number one trusted provider of backup and recovery solutions for the, for for modern data protection. Unpack that for me, trust is absolutely critical. But when you're talking about modern data protection to your customers, what does that mean? >>Yeah. So I always, I always tell our customers there's three things in there that are really important. Trust is obviously number one and google knows this. You've been the most trusted search provider uh, forever. And, and so we have 400,000 customers. We need to make sure that our products work. We need to make sure they do data protection, but we need to do it in a modern way. And so it's not just back up and recovery, that's clearly important. It's also all of the automation and orchestration to move workloads across infrastructures, move it from on premises to the google cloud, for example, it also includes things like governance and compliance because we're faced with ransomware, malware and security threats. And so modern data protection is far more than just back up. It's the automation, it's the monitoring, it's a governance and compliance. It's the ability to move workloads. Um, but everything that we look at within our platform, we focus on all of those different characteristics and to make sure that it works for our customers. >>One of the things that we've seen in the last year, Danny big optic in ransom were obviously the one that everyone is the most familiar with right now. The colonial pipeline. Talk to me about some of the things that the team has seen, what your 400,000 customers have seen in the last 12 months of such a dynamic market, a massive shift to work from home and to supporting SAS for clothes and things like that. What have you seen? >>Well, certainly the employees working from home, there's a massive increase in the attack surface for organizations because now, instead of having three offices, they have, you know, hundreds of locations for their end users. And so it's all about protecting their data at the same time as well. There's been this explosion in malware and ransomware attacks. So we really see customers focusing on three different areas. The first is making sure that when they take a copy of their data, that it is actually secure and we can get into, you know, a mutability and keeping things offline. But really taking the data, making sure it's secure. The second thing that we see customers doing is monitoring their environment. So this is both inspection of the compute environment and of the data itself. Because when ransomware hits, for example, you'll see change rates on data explode. So secure your data monitor the environment. And then lastly make sure that you can recover intelligently is let us say because the last thing that you want to do if you're hit by ransomware is to bring the ransomware back online from a backup. So we call this security cover re secure, restore. We really see customers focusing on those three areas >>And that restoration is critical there because as we know these days, it's not if we get hit with ransomware, it's really a matter of when. Let's go ahead now and go into the google partnership, jenny talked to me about it from your perspective, the history of the strength of the partnership, all that good stuff. >>Yeah. So we have a very deep and long and lengthy relationship with google um, on a number of different areas. So for example, we have 400,000 customers. Where do they send their backups? Most customers don't want to continue to invest in storage solutions on their premises. And so they'll send their data from on premises and tear it into google cloud storage. So that's one integration point. The second is when the running workloads within the clouds. So this is now cloud native. If you're running on top of the google cloud platform, we are inside the google America place and we can protect those workloads. A third area is around the google vm ware engine, there's customers that have a hybrid model where they have some capacity on premises and some in google using the VM ware infrastructure and we support that as well. That's a third area and then 1/4 and perhaps the longest running um, google is synonymous with containers and especially kubernetes, they were very instrumental in the foundations of kubernetes and so r K 10 product which does data protection for kubernetes is also in the google America place. So a very long and deep relationship with them and it's to the benefit of our customers. >>Absolutely. And I think I just saw the other day that google celebrated the search engine. It's 15th birthday. I thought what, what did we do 16 years ago when we couldn't just find anything we wanted brian talked to me about it from Google's perspective of being partnership. >>Yeah, so as Danny mentioned, it's really multifaceted, um it really starts with a hybrid scenario, you know, there's still a lot of customers that are on their journey into the cloud and protecting those on premises workloads and in some senses, even using beams capabilities to move data to help migrate into the cloud is I'd say a great color of the relationship. Um but as Danny mentioned increasingly, more and more primary applications are running in the cloud and you know, the ability to protect those and have, you know, the great features and capabilities, uh you know, that being provides, whether it be for GCB er VM where you know, capability and google cloud or things like G k e R kubernetes offering, which has mentioned, you know, we've been deep and wide in kubernetes, we really birthed it many, many years ago um and have a huge successful business in, in the managing and hosting containers, that having the capabilities to add to those. It really adds to our ecosystem. So we're super excited about the partnership, we're happy to have this great foundation to build together with them into the future. >>And Danny Wien launched, just been in february a couple of months ago, being backup for google cloud platform. Talk to us about that technology and what you're announcing at them on this year. >>Yeah, sure. So back in february we released the first version of the VM backup for G C p product in the marketplace and that's really intended to protect of course, i as infrastructure as a service workloads running on top of G C p and it's been very, very successful. It has integration with the core platform and what I mean by that is if you do a backup in G C P, you can do you can copy that back up on premises and vice versa. So it has a light integration at the data level. What we're about to release later on this summer is version two of that product that has a deep integration with the VM platform via what we call the uh team service platform, a PS themselves. And that allows a rich bidirectional uh interaction between the two products that you can do not just day one operations, but also day to operations. So you can update the software, you can harmonize schedules between on premises and in the cloud. It really allows customers to be more successful in a hybrid model where they're moving from on premises to the cloud. >>And that seems to be really critically important. As we talk about hybrid club all the time, customers are in hybrid. They're living in the hybrid cloud for many reasons, whether it's acquisition or you know, just the nature of lines of business leveraging their cloud vendor of choice. So being able to support the hybrid cloud environment for customers and ensure that that data is recoverable is table stakes these days. Does that give them an advantage over your competition Danny? >>It does. Absolutely. So customers want the hybrid cloud experience. What we find over time is they do trend towards the cloud. There's no question. So if you have the hybrid experience, if they're sending their data there, for example, a step one, step two, of course, is just to move the workload into the cloud and then step three, they really start to be able to unleash their data. If you think about what google is known for, they have incredible capabilities around machine learning and artificial intelligence and they've been doing that for a very long time. So you can imagine customers after they start putting their data there, they start putting their workloads here, they want to unlock it into leverage the insights from the data that they're storing and that's really exciting about where we're going. It's, they were early days for most customers. They're still kind of moving and transitioning into the cloud. But if you think of the capabilities that are unlocked with that massive platform in google, it just opens up the ability to address big challenges of today, like climate change and sustainability and you know, all the health care challenges that we're faced with it. It really is an exciting time to be partnered with Google >>Ryan. Let's dig into the infrastructure in the architecture from your perspective, help us unpack that and what customers are coming to you for help with. >>Yeah. So Danny mentioned, you know the prowess that google has with data and analytics and, and a, I I think we're pretty well known for that. Uh, there's a tremendous opportunity for people in the future. Um, the thing that people get just right out of the box is the access to the technology that we built to build google cloud itself. Just the scale and, and technology, it's, you know, it's, it's a, you know, just incredible. You know, it's a fact that we have eight products here at google that have a billion users and when you have, you know, most people know the search and maps and gmail and all these things. When you have that kind of infrastructure, you build a platform like google cloud platform and you know, the network as a perfect example, the network endpoints, they're actually close to your house. There's a reason our technology is so fast because you get onto the google private network, someplace really close to where you actually live. We have thousands and thousands of points of presence spread around the world and from that point forward you're riding on our internal network, you get better quality of service. Uh the other thing I like to mention is, you know, the google cloud storage, that team is built on our object storage. It's uh it's the same technology that underpins Youtube and other things that most people are familiar with and you just think about that for a minute, you can find the most obscure Youtube video and it's gonna load really fast. You know, you're not going to sit there waiting for like two minutes waiting for something to load and that same under underlying technology underpins GCS So when you're going to go and you know, go back to an old restore, you know, to do a restore, it's gonna load fast even if you're on one of the more inexpensive storage classes. So it's a really nice experience for data protection. It has this global network properties you can restore to a different region if there was ever a disaster, there's just the scale of our foundation of infrastructure and also, you know, Danny mentioned if we're super proud about the investments that google has made for sustainability, You know, our cloud runs on 100% renewable energy at the cloud at our scale. That's a lot of, that's a lot of green energy. We're happy to be one of the largest consumers of green energy out there and make continued investments in sustainability. So, you know, we think we have some of the greenest data centers in the world and it's just one more benefit that people have when they come to run on Google Cloud. >>I don't know what any of us would do without google google cloud platform or google cloud storage. I mean you just mentioned all of the enterprise things as well as the at home. I've got to find this really crazy, obscure youtube video but as demanding customers as we are, we want things asAP not the same thing. If you know, an employee can't find a file or calendar has been deleted or whatnot. Let's go in to finish our time here with some joint customer use case examples. Let's talk about backing up on prem workloads to google cloud storage using existing VM licensing Danny. Tell us about that. >>Yeah. So one of the things that we've introduced at beam is this beam, universal licensing and it's completely portable license, you can be running your workloads on premises now and on a physical system and then you can, you know, make that portable to go to a virtual system and then if you want to go to the cloud, you can send that data up to the work load up to the cloud. One of the neat things about this transition for customers from a storage perspective, we don't charge for that. If you're backing up a physical system and sending your your back up on premises, you know, we don't charge for that. If you want to move to the cloud, we don't charge for that. And so as they go through this, there's a predictability and and customers want that predictability so much um that it's a big differentiating factor for us. They don't want to be surprised by a bill. And so we just make it simple and seamless. They have a single licensing model and its future proof as they move forward on the cloud journey. They don't have to change anything. >>Tell me what you mean by future proof as a marketer. I know that term very well, but it doesn't mean different things to different people. So for means customers in the context of the expansion of partnership with google the opportunities, the choices that you're giving customers to your customers, what does future proof actually delivered to them? >>It means that they're not locked into where they are today. If you think about a customer right now that's running a workload on premises maybe because they have to um they need to be close to the data that's being generated or feeding into that application system. Maybe they're locked into that on premises model. Now they have one of two choices when their hardware gets to the end of life. They can either buy more hardware which locks them into where they are today for the next three years in the next four years Or they can say, you know what, I don't want to lock into that. I want to model the license that is portable that maybe 12 months from now, 18 months from now, I can move to the cloud and so it future proof some, it doesn't give them another reason to stay on premises. It allows them the flexibility that licensing is taken off the table because it moves with you that there's zero thought or consideration and that locks you into where you are today. And that's exciting because it unlocks the capabilities of the cloud without being handicapped if you will by what you have on premises. >>Excellent. Let's go to the second uh use case lift and shift in that portability brian. Talk to us about it from your perspective. >>Yeah, so we obviously constantly in discussions with our customers about moving more applications to the cloud and there's really two different kind of approach is the lift and shift and modernization. You know, do you want to change and run on kubernetes when you come to the cloud as you move it in? In some cases people want to do that or they're gonna obviously build a new application in the cloud. But increasingly we see a lot of customers wanting to do lift and shift, they want to move into the cloud relatively quickly. As Danny said, there's like compelling events on like refreshes and in many cases we've had a number of customers come to us and say look we're going to exit our data centers. We did a big announcement Nokia, they're gonna exit 50 data centers in the coming years around the world and just move that into the cloud. In many cases you want to lift and shift that application to do the migration with his little change as possible. And that's one of the reasons we've really invested in a lot of enterprise, more classic enterprise support type technologies. And also we're super excited to have a really wide set of partners and ecosystem like the folks here at Wien. So the customers can really preserve those technologies, preserve that operational experience that they're already familiar with on prem and use that in the cloud. It just makes it easier for them to move to the cloud faster without having to rebuild as much stuff on the way in. >>And that's critical. Let's talk about one more use case and that is native protection of workloads that run on g c p Danny. What are you enabling customers to do there? >>Well? So we actually merged the capabilities of two different things. One is we leverage the native Api is of G C p to take a snapshot and we merge that with our ability to put it in a portable data format. Now. Why is that important? Because you want to use the native capabilities of G CPU want to leverage those native snapshots. The fastest way to recover a file or the fastest way to recover of'em is from the G C p snapshot. However, if you want to take a copy of that and move it into another locale or you want to pull it back on premises for compliance reasons or put it in a long term storage format, you probably want to put it in GCS or in our portable storage format. And so we merge those two capabilities, the snapshot and back up into a single product. And in addition to that, one of the things that we do, again, I talked about predictability. We tell customers what that policy is going to cost them because if for example a customer said, well I like the idea of doing my backups in the cloud, but I want to store it on premises. We'll tell them, well if you're copying that data continually, you know what the network charges look like, What the CPU and compute charges look like, What do the storage costs looks like. So we give them the forecast of what the cost model looks like even before they do a single backup. >>That forecasting has got to be key, as you said with so much unpredicted things that we can't predict going on in this world the last year has taught us that with a massive shift, the acceleration of digital business and digital transformation, it's really critical that customers have an idea of what their costs are going to be so that they can make adjustments and be agile as they need the technology to be. Last question Bryant is for you, give us a view uh, and all the V mon attendees, what can we expect from the partnership in the next 12 >>months? You know, we're excited about the foundation of the partnership across hybrid and in cloud for both VMS and containers. I think this is the real beginning of a long standing relationship. Um, and it's really about a marriage of technology. You think about all the great data protection and orchestration, all the things that Danny mentioned married with the cloud foundation that we have at scale this tremendous network. You know, we just signed a deal with SpaceX in the last couple of days to hook their satellite network up to the google cloud network, you know, chosen again because we just have this foundational capability to push large amounts of data around the world. And that's you know, for Youtube. We signed a deal with Univision, same type of thing, just massive media uh, you know, being pushed around the world. And if you think about it that that same foundation is used for data protection. Data protection. There's a lot of data and moving large sets of data is hard. You know, we have just this incredible prowess and we're excited about the future of how our technology and beans. Technology is going to evolve over time >>theme and google a marriage of technology Guys, thank you so much for joining me, sharing what's new? The opportunities that demand google are joined me delivering to your joint customers. Lots of great step. We appreciate your time. >>Thanks lisa >>For Danielle in and Brian Schwartz. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of Lehman 2021.

(soft music) >> Hi everyone. And welcome to this special cube conversation and kickoff preview of the Mobile World Congress Barcelona event. It's a physical event that's going to be taking place in person. It will probably be the first hybrid big event 68 days until the June 28th kickoff. You might've heard TelcoDr, Telco disruptor. Is on a mission to move the telco industry to the public cloud. And, and, and it's been taken of one of the biggest spaces this year from Erickson is the big story everyone's talking about. And of course the CUBE is excited to be there and broadcast and be a partner with TelcoDr. So I'm excited to bring on the founder and CEO of TelcoDr. Danielle Royston. Danielle great to see you. Thanks for coming on for this Mobile World Congress preview. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm psyched to talk to you about this, its going to be great. >> So Erickson always has the biggest booth 14 years. You're disrupting the Barcelona not people's shorts going to be on or off. It's officially on, it's happening. And there's going to be a physical event we're coming out of COVID still a risky move. It's going to be a big hybrid event. It's going to be in person. Tell us the story. How did you guys come out of nowhere a disruptor take the biggest real estate in the place and turn it into a community event. A news event, immediate event, everything tell us. >> Yeah, well, you know, I think it was March 9th a little over a month ago. Ericsson announced that they were pulling out of MWC and it's very analogous to what happened in 2020. They were one of the first vendors to bail as well. And it kind of started this like tidal wave of people saying, can't do it. And I think the distinction now is that, that was at the beginning of COVID. There was a lot of unknowns, you know, is it coming? Is it not? Is it safe? Is it not? We're now, you know, year 50 to three, four months into it. I think that when you look at where we are now cases are trending down. The vaccine is up. And I think the legacy players were sort of backward looking they're like, this is a repeat of 2020. We're going to, it's not safe to go. We're going to pull out. And I'm like with a hundred days to go. And the vaccine ramping, I think I see it a different way. I think there's a really big opportunity. John Hoffman, CEO of the GSMA had put out a two page missive on LinkedIn where he was personally responding to questions about how serious they were about making sure that the event was safe and could be held. And my, my view was this is going to happen. And with Ericsson pulling out, I mean this is hollowed ground. I mean, this is, you know, a, you know, massively successful company that has customers literally trained like Skinner's chickens to come to the same spot every year. And now I get to, you know, put out my shingle right there and say welcome and show them the future , right? And instead of the legacy past and all the normal rhetoric that you hear from those you know, sort of dinosaurs, Ericsson and Nokia now they're going to hear about the public cloud. And I'm really excited for this opportunity. I think the ROI on this event is instant. And so it was, it was a pretty easy decision. I think I thought about it for about 30 seconds. >> It's a real bold move. And it's, again, it's a risk that pays off if it happens, if it doesn't, you know, you didn't happen but you're like, it's like a, it's like the the startups that put a Superbowl commercial for the first time, it's a big hit and it's a big gamble that pays off huge. Take us through, I heard, how did it all happen? Did you just wake up and saw it was open? How do you know that it was open? Was it like, does the email go out, say hey I've got this huge space for >> Well, I mean, it was big news. It was big news in the industry that they were pulling out and all the journalists were like, Oh, here we go again. You know, everyone's going to bail, who who's next right? And, and everyone was sort of like building that sort of negative momentum energy. And I'm like, we got to squash this. So I put out a tweet on Twitter. I mean, I'm not the most followed person but I'm kind of known in telco. And I was like, hey GSMA, I'll take over the booth. And I don't think people even liked my tweet, right? Like no likes no retweets. I reached out to a couple of journalists. I'm like, let's do an interview. Let's do a story. Everyone's like, we'll have you on the podcast like in a month, I'm like what?! So, so when John Hoffman had put out that letter I had connected to him. And so I was like, Oh, I'm connected to the CEO of the GSMA. So I went out on LinkedIn and I referenced the story and I said, John Hoffman, I'll take over the booth. And I think about 30 minutes later he responded and said, let's do it. And I said, great, who do I talk to? And I was in touch with someone within a couple of hours. And I think we put the whole deal together in 48. And I think wrote the press release and announced it on Friday. So happened on Tuesday the ninth, announced by that Friday. And I really, I was like, GSMA, we've got to get this out. And we got to stop the negative momentum of the show and get people to realize it's going to be different in June. This is going to happen. Let's go do it. And so I think they are they're psyched that I stepped into the booth it's big booth it's 65,000 square feet, 6,000 square meters for for the rest of the World that use it, the metric system. And I mean, that's huge. I mean, that's the size of a professional pitch in a in a football field, a soccer field. That's a one and a half football fields. It's, it's a ton of space. It's a ton of space pull off. >> I think what's interesting is there's a points out that this new business model of being connected you were on LinkedIn, you connect to them you get a deal done so fast. This is how this is the direct to consumer as a start-up you're literally took over the primo space the best space in the area. So congratulations. And, and the other thing that's notable and why I'm excited to talk to you is that this kind of sets the table for the first global what I call hybrid event. This will probably be a cornerstone case study in and of itself because we're still kind of coming out of the pandemic. People are getting vaccinated. People want to fly. They want to get out of the house, were partnering with the CUBE and the CUBE 365 platform. And, you know, we'd love hybrid. We'd love doing events, theCUBE that's what we do with video. Now, we're going to do a partnership with you to create this hybrid experience. What can people and guests who come to Barcelona or watch remotely expect? >> Yeah, so I think there's a couple of experiences that we're trying to drive in the booth. I think obviously demonstrations, you know I can't fill 65,000 square feet on my own. I'm a startup small company. And so I am inviting like-minded forward thinking companies to join me in the booth. I'm, I'm paying for it providing a turnkey experience for those vendors. And so I think what we have in common is we're thinking about future technologies, like open ran on the network side and obviously public cloud which is a big part of my message. And so first and foremost, foremost, there's, you know come and see the companies that are driving the change the new technologies that are out there and what's available for, for carriers to start to adopt and think about. MWC is a meeting intensive event. Deals are done at this show. In 2019, I think the stat is $65 billion of deals were put together at the show. And so a big component of the booth will be a place for executives to come together and have private conversations. And so we're going to have that. So that's going to be a big piece of it. And I think the third part is driving education and thought leadership. And so there's going to be a whole, you know, talk track right? Tech topics, business topics customer case studies involve the hyperscalers and really start to educate the telco community around these new technologies. But there'll be shorter talks. They won't be like hour long keynotes. We're talking 15, 20 minutes. And I think one thing that we're going to do with you as you were just talking about with theCUBE is, you know MWC was the first big show to have to cancel with COVID I think in 2019, sorry, 2020, the the dates it's always the last Monday in February and and the rest of that week. And so that's like right at the beginning of that of the COVID stuff, Italy was just starting to take off. So it was one of the first shows that had to make a big call and decide to cancel, which they did. This is going to be one of the first shows that comes back online, post COVID right? And so I don't think things just snap back to the way that they used to be. I don't think we, as consumers are going to snap back to the way that we operating we're now used to being able to get curbside delivery from any restaurant in the city, right. I mean, it's just, it's just a sort of a different expectation. And so partnering with theCUBE, we really want to provide an experience that brings the virtual people into the booth. Typically in events like this you really have to be there to see it boosts are kind of like unveiled the day of the show. What's going on. One thing I'm trying to do is really educate people about what you can expect. What can you see? This is what it's going to look like. And so we're going to start to share some pictures of the booth of, of, you know, what it looks like. Number one, to drive excitement with the partners that are coming, right. Like you're going to be part of something really, really fabulous. I think number two attendees can wait, I don't know week of to make the decision to go. And so maybe if COVID continues to trend down and vaccines are, are picking up steam, maybe they're like it's safe for me to go and I want to go be a part of that. But I think from here on out we're going to have sort of that virtual experience. It's always going to be part of shows. And so we're going to experiment with you guys. We're going to have a live streaming event over the course of the, you know, all MWC. It's going to be a way for people who are unable to travel or, you know, can't afford it. COVID or whatever, see what's going on in the booth. And it's going to be everything from listen to a talk to watch what you guys are typically famous for, your awesome interviews. We're going to have a man on the street, you know, like you know, we're here at, at a demo station, take us through your little demo. We're going to have telepresence robots that people can reserve. And, you know, cruise to the booth, the robot can go to a talk. The robot can watch on this streaming thing the robot can go to a demo. The robot can go to a meeting and it's controlled by the the virtual attendees and so experimenting, right? Like how do we make this great for virtual people? How do we make the virtual people feel part of the physical? How do the physical people feel? The virtual people that are attending and really just make it feel like a community of both. So really excited >> That's super awesome. And I think one of the, first of all, thank you for having paying for everyone and including theCUBE in that but I think this speaks to the ecosystem of open you're bringing, you're creating an open ecosystem. And I think that is a huge thing. So for people who are at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona this is going to be a nice, safe place to hang space as well as get deals done and to be comfortable doing media center, we'll get you on the digital TV, but also you're also designing the first what I call the first hybrid experience not just having people, having on-demand videos on their website, connecting Barcelona with other parts of the World, with meetings and stories and content. I think that to me is going to be a great experiment slash upgrade. We'll see, we'll get to see it. >> Well, it was really, I mean, we all lived through 2020. I mean, some of the shows went on AWS's re-invent happened. Google did like a crazy nine week program. It's very lonely to participate in those virtual events right. You know, you kind of log on by herself. No, one's really tweeting about it. You're watching, you know, an event the event is great, but it was really lonely. And so, you know, and I think what people love about the physical events is we're together and we're networking and we're meeting people. And so, you know, I think continue to evolve that experience so that virtual is not as lonely. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. >> No, I've got to say your, your vision is really aligned with us and others that are in this open innovation World. Because if you look at like theCUBE physical went away, we had no events. We did Q virtual, a new brand. It wasn't a pivot. It was an extension, a line extension of theCUBE. Now theCUBES coming back to the physical. We're going to bring that cube virtual to connect everybody. So this is it. And it just amplifies the value of the physical event. So if done right, is so much cooler. So, so that's cool. And what I want to ask you though on the physical side to kind of bring it back to physical is there's still going to be keynotes. There's still going to be talks at Mobile World Congress. And so I saw that schedule and I just saw last week GSMA announced you're going to be doing a keynote speech. That's amazing. So how did that happen? So give us the lowdown on the keynote that you're doing. >> I'm sure the entire industry is like that happened. And it probably has something to do with the back that I have one of the biggest booths at the space. I always, you know, put in a request to speak. I feel that I have really exciting message to share with the industry. Over the last I guess it's been 9 or 10 months. I really been trying to amplify, amplify my voice. I have a podcast, I have a newsletter I'm talking to execs. I have a list that I literally go down one by one stalking each executive of like have I talked to them like how I told them about like the power of the public cloud. And so I am super thankful that I have this opportunity to spread that this message and I'm, I'm planning a really epic talk, just I really want to shake the industry. And this is, this is my opportunity, right? This is my opportunity to stand on the biggest stage in our industry. And command a presence and send out my message. And I'm absolutely thrilled to go do it. And I hope I crush it. I hope it's like a mic drop experience and can't wait to do it. >> Well, we're looking forward to covering it. And we love the open vision. We love the idea of public cloud and the enablement and the disruption, because just like you got the deal so fast, you can move fast with modern applications with the cloud moving at cloud scale, complete content, game changer, so great stuff. So totally applaud that looking forward to, and we're we're here to cheer you on and, and and ask the tough questions. I do want to get to on Twitter yesterday though, you put out on tweetstorm on Twitter, about the plans kind of teasing out the booth. How you going to plan to build the booth, are you worried that you're opening up too much of the kimono here and opened up putting too much on the table because it's usually a secret Mobile World Congress is supposed to be secret, not publicly out there. What, what's the, you know >> Well, I mean, I think this is just a little bit of a change has happened post COVID, right. You know, people usually build their booth in and don't reveal it until the first day of the show. And it's kind of like this excitement to go see what is there, what's their big message. And what's the big reveal. And there's always fun stuff. I think this year is a little bit different. So at first, like I said, at first big event back. I think I need to create a little bit of excitement for people who are going and maybe entice people that maybe you should think about coming. I realize this is a super personal decision, right? It depends on where you are and the country and your, your health and your status. But, but if you can do it I want people to know that you're going to miss out. It's going to be super fun. So, um, so yeah. >> Well, let's take it. Let's take a look at the booth though. And that's why my next question, I want to see I know we have guys, do we have that, rendering, let's pull that up and let's talk this through. Let's go look at the rendering. So you can see here on the screen, take us through this. >> Yeah. So what we want to do is give the sense of, of cloud city, right? And that's what we're calling this space in cloud cities. There's in a city there's outdoor space. Like you see here, and then there's in indoor space. And indoors is for you where you work, where you buy, where you meet. And so you can see here on the left, the demo stations that would have different vendors displaying you know, and it kind of, it goes way back. I mean, what we're feeling like I said is like a football field, an American football field and the half or a European football field a pitch it's pretty, it's pretty extensive. And so we think we're going to have, I don't know, 20 30 vendors showing their, their different software. I think we're, we're scheduling or planning for about 24 different meeting rooms that we can schedule all COVID safe with the, with the space requirements in there, but on the out in that outdoor space, it would be where you learn right. The education and then I think we're going to have this fabulous booth for the, for theCUBE. It's going to look, It's just so amazing with the backdrop of this amazing building. And, you know, I think I underappreciated or didn't really realize, you know, how devastated the both the event planning industry has been from COVID as well as construction. You know, obviously when events were shut down these companies had to lay off thousands of workers. Some of the big firms have laid off 50% of their workforce. And those people, you know they didn't just go home and sit around. They, they had to come up with a livelihood and this people have pivoted into another job. And they're not really, I mean events aren't really back yet. So some of these firms are shrunk. You know, the manpower is, is severely reduced. But then I think on the other side is and you can see this in just housing construction. There's a lumber shortage, there's a shortage of materials. And so everything that we source for the booth pretty much has to come from Spain. And so when we look at the booth, you know, we have, we have a pretty significant ceiling. Well, it looks like the roof of the building. It's an engineering feat to do. That we're still working through the sure. Someone with a protractor is doing lots of math. You know, the glass, we have those huge beautiful glass spans in the front getting a glass that spans that height. I think it's, I think it's 18 feet. It's six meters tall. That's going to be hard things like the flooring. I want to have like hardwood, laminate flooring. So it looks like hardwood floors. Don't know if we can find them right there. Like, why don't you do carpet? I'm like, can you just check one more vendor? I really want my floor. So, so we'll see how it goes. And yeah, I, I think that sharing this plan, the trials and tribulations, like how can this small startup, right? That usually, you know, take over a space that usually takes nine months to plan, right? Who is this girl? What is she doing? How are they going to pull this off? You know, I think it's like, grab your popcorn and watch the train wreck or, you know, hero's journey. We get it done. >> Well, people are on clubhouse. They're bored, they want to get out. I think this is a case study. Mobile World Congress has a huge economic impact for the, as a show it's got its own little economy built around it. Impacts the, the country of Spain in Barcelona, the city, a great city. People love it. And so it certainly is notable and newsworthy. We will be following that story. I have to ask you more of a, kind of a tactical question. If you don't mind, while I have you here, can you talk about some of the vendors that are coming and the kinds of talks you're going to have inside the booth and and how do people get involved? You mentioned it's open to people who love open ran and open public cloud, open technologies. I mean, that's pretty much everybody that's cool and relevant, which is like almost the whole World now. So like, is it going to be a space, is there a criteria? How do people get involved? What's the collaboration formula. >> Yeah, no. I had been working on putting together a list of potential vendors. You'd be surprised, not everyone is, is as bullish as I am on the public cloud. And so there was a little bit of a filtering criteria, but otherwise anyone can come right enterprise software vendors in telco where their primary customer is a communications service provider. That's their software runs on the public cloud come on in, right. People using open man. And it's still a little sort of small band of cohorts that are really trying to drive this new technology forward. And, and they're growing up, going up against some of the biggest companies in telco, right? They're going up against Huawei. They're going up against Ericcson. Both those guys are, are very anti and then not really pro open rank because it's hugely disruptive to their business. And so, you know I'm pretty sure those guys are not psyched to see open ran you know, you know, become a thing in telco. And so it's really sort of about disruptive technologies that are that are in the, in the booth. And so, yeah, I'm paying for the space. I'm paying for the, build-out bring your demos bring your people, come with your marketing message and and let's, and let's build a community. And so we're talking to open ran vendors like Mavenir. Which is a pretty big name in the open ran, open ran space. I've been talking with parallel wireless and LTO star. Those are also great players, software vendors like Totogi, which is a talk that I did a little over a month ago about this new startup that has a web-scale charger that they're trying to put out there. Aria is another company that I'm really familiar with that has some cloud for software and then little tiny startups like Zquence, and some other up-and-comers that no one's heard of. So we're really excited to invite them into the booth. I've been secretly stalking Elon, Elon Musk and Starlink and SpaceX to be a part of it. And we'll see, right. I'm kind of, you know, using Twitter and whatever I can to, to reach out and see if they want to be a part of it. But yeah, it's kind of really open arms, not really excluded. >> Oh, Elon, Elon is very disruptive and you know, he reached out on, you can reach out to him on Twitter. He's accessible. I mean, you've got to break through, but he is got this antenna up for innovators. People who think differently. They love people who break down walls and markets floor open wins. I mean, we, we know there's a history we've been covering it. I've been involved in my career. People who bet against open, always lose it's happened in every single wave of innovation. So Elons gettable, lets get him. >> Who doesn't love Elon Musk. I mean, I think some people don't, I love him, he's my hero. I model a lot of the things that I do around, around his, his approach, his vision, right, 20 years ago or close to 20 years ago, 2003 he said he was going to put people on Mars. And I think people laughed at him for being like the PayPal guy and this guy's crazy. But every year he makes progress against his goals, right. We have a real landable rocket. He's doing a manned mission this week, a second man mission or third man mission. And the guy makes progress. And I think I'm on the same, same mission here. My mission is to move telco to the public cloud. I think it's a, it's a long journey, right? I think people are like, who's this girl and she's like 12 people, and what's your story? And I'm like, I don't care. I have a singular mission is a quest. I am not going to stop until I moved the industry to the public cloud. And I it's my life's mission. And I'm psyched to do it. >> Well, we love the mojo. We'd love your style. We'd love Elon Musk, his mugshot. And again, just to bring the dots together you have that same mindset, which has, you know, as people you know, love her, love or like Elon, he's a builder. Okay, he builds things and he delivers. So as you said, so know I really appreciate the work you're doing. I love your philosophy. We're in total agreement, open, open building. Doing it together as a collective, being part of something. This is what the World needs. You got a lot of great ideas in the works and we can't wait to hear them. And what you got coming up over the next 68 days. This is the first of many conversations together. Thank you so much >> Yeah, yeah, no, it's going to be so awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Psyched to talk to you about it. >> Okay Mobile World Congress is happening in Barcelona on the June 28th. It's going to be in person and it's going to be probably the biggest hybrid event to date. Be there, check out telcoDR and theCUBE and the space that they took over 14 years at the helm there. Ericcson had it, now it's TelcoDR. Danielle Royston, founder and CEO here with me from TelcoDR. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>>mhm Yes, Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual, which we were in person this year but we're still remote. We still got the Covid coming around the corner. Soon to be in post. Covid got a great guest here, Clayton Coleman architect that red hat cuba love and I've been on many times expanded role again this year. More cloud, more cloud action. Great, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>It's a pleasure >>to be here. So great to see you were just riffing before we came on camera about distributed computing uh and the future of the internet, how it's all evolving, how much fun it is, how it's all changing still. The game is still the same, all that good stuff. But here at Red had some and we're gonna get into that, but I want to just get into the hard news and the real big, big opportunities here you're announcing with red hat new managed cloud services portfolio, take us through that. >>Sure. We're continuing to evolve our open shift managed offerings which has grown now to include um the redhead open shift service on amazon to complement our as your redhead open shift service. Um that means that we have um along with our partnership on IBM cloud and open ship dedicated on both a W S and G C P. We now have um managed open shift on all of the major clouds. And along with that we are bringing in and introducing the first, I think really the first step what we see as uh huh growing and involving the hybrid cloud ecosystem on top of open shift and there's many different ways to slice that, but it's about bringing capabilities on top of open shift in multiple environments and multiple clouds in ways that make developers and operation teams more productive because at the heart of it, that's our goal for open shift. And the broader, open source ecosystem is do what makes all of us safer, more, uh, more productive and able to deliver business value? >>Yeah. And that's a great steak you guys put in the ground. Um, and that's great messaging, great marketing, great value proposition. I want to dig into a little bit with you. I mean, you guys have, I think the only native offering on all the clouds out there that I know of, is that true? I mean, you guys have, it's not just, you know, you support AWS as your and I B M and G C P, but native offerings. >>We do not have a native offering on GCPD offered the same service. And this is actually interesting as we've evolved our approach. You know, everyone, when we talk about hybrid, Hybrid is, um, you know, dealing with the realities of the computing world, We live in, um, working with each of the major clouds, trying to deliver the best immigration possible in a way that drives that consistency across those environments. And so actually are open shift dedicated on AWS service gave us the inspiration a lot of the basic foundations for what became the integrated Native service. And we've worked with amazon very closely to make sure that that does the right thing for customers who have chosen amazon. And likewise, we're trying to continue to deliver the best experience, the best operational reliability that we can so that the choice of where you run your cloud, um, where you run your applications, um, matches the decisions you've already made and where your future investments are gonna be. So we want to be where customers are, but we also want to give you that consistency. That has been a hallmark of um of open shift since the beginning. >>Yeah. And thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that because the manage serves on GCB rest or native. Um let me ask about the application services because Jeff Barr from AWS posted a few weeks ago amazon celebrated their 15th birthday. They're still teenagers uh relatively speaking. But one comment he made that he that was interesting to me. And this applies kind of this cloud native megatrend happening is he says the A. P. I. S are basically the same and this brings up the hybrid environment. You guys are always been into the api side of the management with the cloud services and supporting all that. As you guys look at this ecosystem in open source. How is the role of A PS and these integrations? Because without solid integration all these services could break down and certainly the open source, more and more people are coding. So take me through how you guys look at these applications services because many people are predicting more service is going to be on boarding faster than ever before. >>It's interesting. So um for us working across multiple cloud environments, there are many similarities in those mps, but for every similarity there is a difference and those differences are actually what dr costs and drive complexity when you're integrating. Um and I think a lot of the role of this is, you know, the irresponsible to talk about the role of an individual company in the computing ecosystem moving to cloud native because as many of these capabilities are unlocked by large cloud providers and transformations in the kinds of software that we run at scale. You know, everybody is a participant in that. But then you look at the broad swath of developer and operator ecosystem and it's the communities of people who paper over those differences, who write run books and build um you know, the policies and who build the experience and the automation. Um not just in individual products or an individual clouds, but across the open source ecosystem. Whether it's technologies like answerable or Terror form, whether it's best practices websites around running kubernetes, um every every part of the community is really involved in driving up uh driving consistency, um driving predictability and driving reliability and what we try to do is actually work within those constraints um to take the ecosystem and to push it a little bit further. So the A. P. I. S. May be similar, but over time those differences can trip you up. And a lot of what I think we talked about where the industry is going, where where we want to be is everyone ultimately is going to own some responsibility for keeping their services running and making sure that their applications and their businesses are successful. The best outcome would be that the A. P. R. S are the same and they're open and that both the cloud providers and the open source ecosystem and vendors and partners who drive many of these open source communities are actually all working together to have the most consistent environment to make portability a true strength. But when someone does differentiate and has a true best to bring service, we don't want to build artificial walls between those. I mean, I mean, that's hybrid cloud is you're going to make choices that make sense for you if we tell people that their choices don't work or they can't integrate or, you know, an open source project doesn't support this vendor, that vendor, we're actually leaving a lot of the complexity buried in those organizations. So I think this is a great time to, as we turn over for cloud. Native looking at how we, as much as possible try to drive those ap is closer together and the consistency underneath them is both a community and a vendor. And uh for red hat, it's part of what we do is a core mission is trying to make sure that that consistency is actually real. You don't have to worry about those details when you're ignoring them. >>That's a great point. Before I get into some architectural impact, I want to get your thoughts on um, the, this trends going on, Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know, you say, oh yeah, I gotta, I want a data cloud, you know, everything is like the new, you know, they saw Snowflake Apollo, I gotta have some, I got some of that data, You've got streaming data services, you've got data services and native into the, these platforms. But a lot of these companies think it's just, you're just gonna get a data cloud, just, it's so easy. Um, they might try something and then they get stuck with it or they have to re factor, >>how do you look >>at that as an architect when you have these new hot trends like say a data cloud, how should customers be thinking about kicking the tires on services like that And how should they think holistically around architect in that? >>There's a really interesting mindset is, uh, you know, we deal with this a lot. Everyone I talked to, you know, I've been with red hat for 10 years now in an open shift. All 10 years of that. We've gone through a bunch of transformations. Um, and every time I talked to, you know, I've talked to the same companies and organizations over the last 10 years, each point in their evolution, they're making decisions that are the right decision at the time. Um, they're choosing a new capability. So platform as a service is a great example of a capability that allowed a lot of really large organizations to standardize. Um, that ties into digital transformation. Ci CD is another big trend where it's an obvious wind. But depending on where you jumped on the bandwagon, depending on when you adopted, you're going to make a bunch of different trade offs. And that, that process is how do we improve the ability to keep all of the old stuff moving forward as well? And so open api is open standards are a big part of that, but equally it's understanding the trade offs that you're going to make and clearly communicating those so with data lakes. Um, there was kind of the 1st and 2nd iterations of data lakes, there was the uh, in the early days these capabilities were knew they were based around open source software. Um, a lot of the Hadoop and big data ecosystem, you know, started based on some of these key papers from amazon and google and others taking infrastructure ideas bringing them to scale. We went through a whole evolution of that and the input and the output of that basically let us into the next phase, which I think is the second phase of data leak, which is we have this data are tools are so much better because of that first phase that the investments we made the first time around, we're going to have to pay another investment to make that transformation. And so I've actually, I never want to caution someone not to jump early, but it has to be the right jump and it has to be something that really gives you a competitive advantage. A lot of infrastructure technology is you should make the choices that you make one or two big bets and sometimes people say this, you call it using their innovation tokens. You need to make the bets on big technologies that you operate more effectively at scale. It is somewhat hard to predict that. I certainly say that I've missed quite a few of the exciting transformations in the field just because, um, it wasn't always obvious that it was going to pay off to the degree that um, customers would need. >>So I gotta ask you on the real time applications side of it, that's been a big trend, certainly in cloud. But as you look at hybrid hybrid cloud environments, for instance, streaming data has been a big issue. Uh any updates there from you on your managed service? >>That's right. So one of we have to manage services um that are both closely aligned three managed services that are closely aligned with data in three different ways. And so um one of them is redhead open shift streams for Apache Kafka, which is managed cloud service that focuses on bringing that streaming data and letting you run it across multiple environments. And I think that, you know, we get to the heart of what's the purpose of uh managed services is to reduce operational overhead and to take responsibilities that allow users to focus on the things that actually matter for them. So for us, um managed open shift streams is really about the flow of data between applications in different environments, whether that's from the edge to an on premise data center, whether it's an on premise data center to the cloud. And increasingly these services which were running in the public cloud, increasingly these services have elements that run in the public cloud, but also key elements that run close to where your applications are. And I think that bridge is actually really important for us. That's a key component of hybrid is connecting the different locations and different footprints. So for us the focus is really how do we get data moving to the right place that complements our API management service, which is an add on for open ship dedicated, which means once you've brought the data and you need to expose it back out to other applications in the environment, you can build those applications on open shift, you can leverage the capabilities of open shift api management to expose them more easily, both to end customers or to other applications. And then our third services redhead open shift data science. Um and that is a, an integration that makes it easy for data scientists in a kubernetes environment. On open shift, they easily bring together the data to make, to analyze it and to help route it is appropriate. So those three facets for us are pretty important. They can be used in many different ways, but that focus on the flow of data across these different environments is really a key part of our longer term strategy. >>You know, all the customer checkboxes there you mentioned earlier. I mean I'll just summarize that that you said, you know, obviously value faster application velocity time to value. Those are like the checkboxes, Gardner told analysts check those lower complexity. Oh, we do the heavy lifting, all cloud benefits, so that's all cool. Everyone kind of gets that, everyone's been around cloud knows devops all those things come into play right now. The innovation focuses on operations and day to operations, becoming much more specific. When people say, hey, I've done some lift and shift, I've done some Greenfield born in the cloud now, it's like, whoa, this stuff, I haven't seen this before. As you start scaling. So this brings up that concept and then you add in multi cloud and hybrid cloud, you gotta have a unified experience. So these are the hot areas right this year, I would say, you know, that day to operate has been around for a while, but this idea of unification around environments to be fully distributed for developers is huge. >>How do you >>architect for that? This is the number one question I get. And I tease out when people are kind of talking about their environments that challenges their opportunities, they're really trying to architect, you know, the foundation that building to be um future proof, they don't want to get screwed over when they have, they realize they made a decision, they weren't thinking about day to operation or they didn't think about the unified experience across clouds across environments and services. This is huge. What's your take on this? >>So this is um, this is probably one of the hardest questions I think I could get asked, which is uh looking into the crystal ball, what are the aspects of today's environments that are accidental complexity? That's really just a result of the slow accretion of technologies and we all need to make bets when, when the time is right within the business, um and which parts of it are essential. What are the fundamental hard problems and so on. The accidental complexity side for red hat, it's really about um that consistent environment through open shift bringing capabilities, our connection to open source and making sure that there's an open ecosystem where um community members, users vendors can all work together to um find solutions that work for them because there's not, there's no way to solve for all of computing. It's just impossible. I think that is kind of our that's our development process and that's what helps make that accidental complexity of all that self away over time. But in the essential complexity data is tied the location, data has gravity data. Lakes are a great example of because data has gravity. The more data that you bring together, the bigger the scale the tools you can bring, you can invest in more specialized tools. I've almost do that as a specialization centralization. There's a ton of centralization going on right now at the same time that these new technologies are available to make it easier and easier. Whether that's large scale automation um with conflict management technologies, whether that's kubernetes and deploying it in multiple sites in multiple locations and open shift, bringing consistency so that you can run the apps the same way. But even further than that is concentrating, mhm. More of what would have typically been a specialist problem, something that you build a one off around in your organization to work through the problem. We're really getting to a point where pretty soon now there is a technology or a service for everyone. How do you get the data into that service out? How do you secure it? How do you glue it together? Um I think of, you know, some people might call this um you know, the ultimate integration problem, which is we're going to have all of this stuff and all of these places, what are the core concepts, location, security, placement, topology, latency, where data resides, who's accessing that data, We think of these as kind of the building blocks of where we're going next. So for us trying to make investments in, how do we make kubernetes work better across lots of environments. I have a coupon talk coming up this coupon, it's really exciting for me to talk about where we're going with, you know, the evolution of kubernetes, bringing the different pieces more closely together across multiple environments. But likewise, when we talk about our managed services, we've approached the strategy for managed services as it's not just the service in isolation, it's how it connects to the other pieces. What can we learn in the community, in our services, working with users that benefits that connectivity. So I mentioned the open shift streams connecting up environments, we'd really like to improve how applications connect across disparate environments. That's a fundamental property of if you're going to have data uh in one geographic region and you didn't move services closer to that well, those services I need to know and encode and have that behavior to get closer to where the data is, whether it's one data lake or 10. We gotta have that flexibility in place. And so those obstructions are really, and to >>your point about the building blocks where you've got to factor in those building blocks, because you're gonna need to understand the latency impact, that's going to impact how you're gonna handle the compute piece, that's gonna handle all these things are coming into play. So, again, if you're mindful of the building blocks, just as a cloud concept, um, then you're okay. >>We hear this a lot. Actually, there's real challenges in the, the ecosystem of uh, we see a lot of the problems of I want to help someone automate and improved, but the more balkanize, the more spread out, the more individual solutions are in play, it's harder for someone to bring their technology to bear to help solve the problem. So looking for ways that we can um, you know, grease the skids to build the glue. I think open source works best when it's defining de facto solutions that everybody agrees on that openness and the easy access is a key property that makes de facto standards emerged from open source. What can we do to grow defacto standards around multi cloud and application movement and application interconnect I think is a very, it's already happening and what can we do to accelerate it? That's it. >>Well, I think you bring up a really good point. This is probably a follow up, maybe a clubhouse talk or you guys will do a separate session on this. But I've been riffing on this idea of uh, today's silos, tomorrow's component, right, or module. If most people don't realize that these silos can be problematic if not thought through. So you have to kill the silos to bring in kind of an open police. So if you're open, not closed, you can leverage a monolith. Today's monolithic app or full stack could be tomorrow's building block unless you don't open up. So this is where interesting design question comes in, which is, it's okay to have pre existing stuff if you're open about it. But if you stay siloed, you're gonna get really stuck >>and there's going to be more and more pre existing stuff I think, you know, uh even the data lake for every day to lake, there is a huge problem of how to get data into the data lake or taking existing applications that came from the previous data link. And so there's a, there's a natural evolutionary process where let's focus on the mechanisms that actually move that day to get that data flowing. Um, I think we're still in the early phases of thinking about huge amounts of applications. Microservices or you know, 10 years old in the sense of it being a fairly common industry talking point before that we have service oriented architecture. But the difference now is that we're encouraging and building one developer, one team might run several services. They might use three or four different sas vendors. They might depend on five or 10 or 15 cloud services. Those integration points make them easier. But it's a new opportunity for us to say, well, what are the differences to go back to? The point is you can keep your silos, we just want to have great integration in and out of >>those. Exactly, they don't have to you have to break down the silos. So again, it's a tried and true formula integration, interoperability and abstracting away the complexity with some sort of new software abstraction layer. You bring that to play as long as you can paddle with that, you apply the new building blocks, you're classified. >>It sounds so that's so simple, doesn't it? It does. And you know, of course it'll take us 10 years to get there. And uh, you know, after cloud native will be will be galactic native or something like that. You know, there's always going to be a new uh concept that we need to work in. I think the key concepts we're really going after our everyone is trying to run resilient and reliable services and the clouds give us in the clouds take it away. They give us those opportunities to have some of those building blocks like location of geographic hardware resources, but they will always be data that spread. And again, you still have to apply those principles to the cloud to get the service guarantees that you need. I think there's a completely untapped area for helping software developers and software teams understand the actual availability and guarantees of the underlying environment. It's a property of the services you run with. If you're using a disk in a particular availability zone, that's a property of your application. I think there's a rich area that hasn't been mined yet. Of helping you understand what your effective service level goals which of those can be met. Which cannot, it doesn't make a lot of sense in a single cluster or single machine or a single location world the moment you start to talk about, Well I have my data lake. Well what are the ways my data leg can fail? How do we look at your complex web of interdependencies and say, well clearly if you lose this cloud provider, you're going to lose not just the things that you have running there, but these other dependencies, there's a lot of, there's a lot of next steps that we're just learning what happens when a major cloud goes down for a day or a region of a cloud goes down for a day. You still have to design and work around those >>cases. It's distributed computing. And again, I love the space where galactic cloud, you got SpaceX? Where's Cloud X? I mean, you know, space is the next frontier. You know, you've got all kinds of action happening in space. Great space reference there. Clayton, Great insight. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Clayton Coleman architect at red Hat. Clayton, Thanks for coming on. >>Pretty pleasure. >>Always. Great chat. I'm talking under the hood. What's going on in red hats? New managed cloud service portfolio? Again, the world's getting complex, abstract away. The complexities with software Inter operate integrate. That's the key formula with the cloud building blocks. I'm john ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Exascale Day. Made possible by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's celebration of Exascale Day. Dr. Mark Fernandez is here. He's the HPC technology officer for the Americas at Hewlett Packard enterprise. And he's a developer of the spaceborne computer, which we're going to talk about today. Mark, welcome. It's great to see you. >> Great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So let's start with Exascale Day. It's on 10 18, of course, which is 10 to the power of 18. That's a one followed by 18 zeros. I joke all the time. It takes six commas to write out that number. (Mark laughing) But Mark, why don't we start? What's the significance of that number? >> So it's a very large number. And in general, we've been marking the progress of our computational capabilities in thousands. So exascale is a thousand times faster than where we are today. We're in an era today called the petaflop era which is 10 to the 15th. And prior to that, we were in the teraflop era, which is 10 to the 12th. I can kind of understand a 10 to the 12th and I kind of can discuss that with folks 'cause that's a trillion of something. And we know a lot of things that are in trillions, like our national debt, for example. (Dave laughing) But a billion, billion is an exascale and it will give us a thousand times more computational capability than we have in general today. >> Yeah, so when you think about going from terascale to petascale to exascale I mean, we're not talking about orders of magnitude, we're talking about a much more substantial improvement. And that's part of the reason why it's sort of takes so long to achieve these milestones. I mean, it kind of started back in the sixties and seventies and then... >> Yeah. >> We've been in the petascale now for more than a decade if I think I'm correct. >> Yeah, correct. We got there in 2007. And each of these increments is an extra comma, that's the way to remember it. So we want to add an extra comma and get to the exascale era. So yeah, like you say, we entered the current petaflop scale in 2007. Before that was the terascale, teraflop era and it was in 1997. So it took us 10 years to get that far, but it's taken us, going to take us 13 or 14 years to get to the next one. >> And we say flops, we're talking about floating point operations. And we're talking about the number of calculations that can be done in a second. I mean, talk about not being able to get your head around it, right? Is that's what talking about here? >> Correct scientists, engineers, weather forecasters, others use real numbers and real math. And that's how you want to rank those performance is based upon those real numbers times each other. And so that's why they're floating point numbers. >> When I think about supercomputers, I can't help but remember whom I consider the father of supercomputing Seymour Cray. Cray of course, is a company that Hewlett Packard Enterprise acquired. And he was kind of an eclectic fellow. I mean, maybe that's unfair but he was an interesting dude. But very committed to his goal of really building the world's fastest computers. When you look at back on the industry, how do you think about its developments over the years? >> So one of the events that stands out in my mind is I was working for the Naval Research Lab outside Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. And we were doing weather modeling. And we got a Cray supercomputer. And there was a party when we were able to run a two week prediction in under two weeks. So the scientists and engineers had the math to solve the problem, but the current computers would take longer than just sitting and waiting and looking out the window to see what the weather was like. So when we can make a two week prediction in under two weeks, there was a celebration. And that was in the eighties, early nineties. And so now you see that we get weather predictions in eight hours, four hours and your morning folks will get you down to an hour. >> I mean, if you think about the history of super computing it's really striking to consider the challenges in the efforts as we were just talking about, I mean, decade plus to get to the next level. And you see this coming to fruition now, and we're saying exascale likely 2021. So what are some of the innovations in science, in medicine or other areas you mentioned weather that'll be introduced as exascale computing is ushered in, what should people expect? >> So we kind of alluded to one and weather affects everybody, everywhere. So we can get better weather predictions, which help everybody every morning before you get ready to go to work or travel or et cetera. And again, storm predictions, hurricane predictions, flood predictions, the forest fire predictions, those type things affect everybody, everyday. Those will get improved with exascale. In terms of medicine, we're able to take, excuse me, we're able to take genetic information and attempt to map that to more drugs quicker than we have in the past. So we'll be able to have drug discovery happening much faster with an exascale system out there. And to some extent that's happening now with COVID and all the work that we're doing now. And we realize that we're struggling with these current computers to find these solutions as fast as everyone wants them. And exascale computers will help us get there much faster in the future in terms of medicine. >> Well, and of course, as you apply machine intelligence and AI and machine learning to the applications running on these supercomputers, that just takes it to another level. I mean, people used to joke about you can't predict the weather and clearly we've seen that get much, much better. Now it's going to be interesting to see with climate change. That's another wildcard variable but I'm assuming the scientists are taking that into consideration. I mean, actually been pretty accurate about the impacts of climate change, haven't they? >> Yeah, absolutely. And the climate change models will get better with exascale computers too. And hopefully we'll be able to build a confidence in the public and the politicians in those results with these better, more powerful computers. >> Yeah let's hope so. Now let's talk about the spaceborne computer and your involvement in that project. Your original spaceborne computer it went up on a SpaceX reusable rocket. Destination of course, was the international space station. Okay, so what was the genesis of that project and what was the outcome? So we were approached by a long time customer NASA Ames. And NASA Ames says its mission is to model rocket launches and space missions and return to earth. And they had the foresight to realize that their supercomputers here on earth, could not do that mission when we got to Mars. And so they wanted to plan ahead and they said, "Can you take a small part of our supercomputer today and just prove that it can work in space? And if it can't figure out what we need to do to make it work, et cetera." So that's what we did. We took identical hardware, that's present at NASA Ames. We put it on a SpaceX rocket no special preparations for it in terms of hardware or anything of that sort, no special hardening, because we want to take the latest technology just before we head to Mars with us. I tell people you wouldn't want to get in the rocket headed to Mars with a flip phone. You want to take the latest iPhone, right? And all of the computers on board, current spacecrafts are about the 2007 era that we were talking about, in that era. So we want to take something new with us. We got the spaceone computer on board. It was installed in the ceiling because in space, there's no gravity. And you can put computers in the ceiling. And we immediately made a computer run. And we produced a trillion calculations a second which got us into the teraflop range. The first teraflop in space was pretty exciting. >> Well, that's awesome. I mean, so this is the ultimate example of edge computing. >> Yes. You mentioned you wanted to see if it could work and it sounds like it did. I mean, there was obviously a long elapse time to get it up and running 'cause you have to get it up there. But it sounds like once you did, it was up and running very quickly so it did work. But what were some of the challenges that you encountered maybe some of the learnings in terms of getting it up and running? >> So it's really fascinating. Astronauts are really cool people but they're not computer scientists, right? So they see a cord, they see a place to plug it in, they plug it in and of course we're watching live on the video and you plugged it in the wrong spot. So (laughs) Mr. Astronaut, can we back up and follow the procedure more carefully and get this thing plugged in carefully. They're not computer technicians used to installing a supercomputer. So we were able to get the system packaged for the shake, rattle and roll and G-forces of launch in the SpaceX. We were able to give astronaut instructions on how to install it and get it going. And we were able to operate it here from earth and get some pretty exciting results. >> So our supercomputers are so easy to install even an astronaut can do it. I don't know. >> That's right. (both laughing) Here on earth we have what we call a customer replaceable units. And we had to replace a component. And we looked at our instructions that are tried and true here on earth for average Joe, a customer to do that and realized without gravity, we're going to have to update this procedure. And so we renamed it an astronaut replaceable unit and it worked just fine. >> Yeah, you can't really send an SE out to space to fix it, can you? >> No sir. (Dave laughing) You have to have very careful instructions for these guys but they're great. It worked out wonderfully. >> That's awesome. Let's talk about spaceborne two. Now that's on schedule to go back to the ISS next year. What are you trying to accomplish this time? >> So in retrospect, spaceborne one was a proof of concept. Can we package it up to fit on SpaceX? Can we get the astronauts to install it? And can we operate it from earth? And if so, how long will it last? And do we get the right answers? 100% mission success on that. Now spaceborne two is, we're going to release it to the community of scientists, engineers and space explorers and say, "Hey this thing is rock solid, it's proven. Come use it to improve your edge computing." We'd like to preserve the network downlink bandwidth for all that imagery, all that genetic data, all that other data and process it on the edge as the whole world is moving to now. Don't move the data, let's compute at the edge and that's what we're going to do with spaceborne two. And so what's your expectation for how long the project is going to last? What does success look like in your mind? So spaceborne one was given a one year mission just to see if we could do it but the idea then was planted it's going to take about three years to get to Mars and back. So if you're successful, let's see if this computer can last three years. And so we're going up February 1st, if we go on schedule and we'll be up two to three years and as long as it works, we'll keep computing and computing on the edge. >> That's amazing. I mean, I feel like, when I started the industry, it was almost like there was a renaissance in supercomputing. You certainly had Cray and you had all these other companies, you remember thinking machines and convex spun out tried to do a mini supercomputer. And you had, really a lot of venture capital and then things got quiet for a while. I feel like now with all this big data and AI, we're seeing in all the use cases that you talked about, we're seeing another renaissance in supercomputing. I wonder if you could give us your final thoughts. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we've got the generic like you said, floating point operations. We've now got specialized image processing processors and we have specialized graphics processing units, GPUs. So all of the scientists and engineers are looking at these specialized components and bringing them together to solve their missions at the edge faster than ever before. So there's heterogeneity of computing is coming together to make humanity a better place. And how are you going to celebrate Exascale Day? You got to special cocktail you going to shake up or what are you going to do? It's five o'clock somewhere on 10 18, and I'm a Parrothead fan. So I'll probably have a margarita. There you go all right. Well Mark, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on Exascale Day. Congratulations on your next project, the spaceborne two. Really appreciate you coming to theCUBE. Thank you very much I've enjoyed it. All right, you're really welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for thecUBE. We're celebrating Exascale Day. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special presentation with Cal Poly hosting the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE here in our Palo Alto studios with our remote guests. We couldn't be there in person, but we're going to be here remote. We got a great session and a panel for one hour, topic preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow. Got a great lineup. Bill Britton, Lieutenant Colonel from the US Air Force, retired vice president for information technology and CIO and the director of the California Cybersecurity Institute for Cal Poly. Bill, thanks for joining us. Dr. Amy Fleischer, who's the dean of the College of Engineering at Cal Poly, and Trung Pham, professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >> Our pleasure. >> Got a great- >> Great to be here. >> Great panel. This is one of my favorite topics. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Preparing students for the next generation, the jobs for today and tomorrow. We got an hour. I'd love you guys to start with an opening statement to kick things off. Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm really pleased to be, to start on this as the director for the Cybersecurity Institute and the CIO at Cal Poly, it's really a fun, exciting job, because as a polytechnic, technology has such a forefront in what we're doing, and we've had a wonderful opportunity being 40 miles from Vandenberg Air Force Base to really look at the nexus of space and cybersecurity. And if you add into that both commercial, government, and civil space and cybersecurity, this is an expanding wide open time for cyber and space. In that role that we have with the Cybersecurity Institute, we partner with elements of the state and the university, and we try to really add value above our academic level, which is some of the highest in the nation, and to really merge down and go a little lower and start younger. So we actually are running the week prior to this showing a cybersecurity competition for high schools and middle schools in the state of California. That competition this year is based on a scenario around hacking of a commercial satellite and the forensics of the payload that was hacked and the networks associated with it. This is going to be done using products like Wireshark, Autopsy, and other tools that will give those high school students what we hope is a huge desire to follow up and go into cyber and cyberspace and space and follow that career path and either come to Cal Poly or some other institution that's going to let them really expand their horizons in cybersecurity and space for the future of our nation. >> Bill, thanks for that intro. By the way, I just want to give you props for an amazing team and job you guys are doing at Cal Poly, the DxHub and the efforts you guys are having with your challenge. Congratulations on that great work. >> Thank you. It's a rock star team. It's absolutely amazing to find that much talent at one location. And I think Amy's going to tell you, she's got the same amount of talent in her staff, so it's a great place to be. >> Dr. Amy Fleischer. You guys have a great organization down there, amazing curriculum, amazing people, great community. Your opening statement. >> Hello everybody. It's really great to be a part of this panel on behalf of the Cal Poly College of Engineering. Here at Cal Poly, we really take preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow completely seriously, and we can claim that our students really graduate so they're ready day one for their first real job. But that means that in getting them to that point, we have to help them get valuable and meaningful job experience before they graduate, both through our curriculum and through multiple internship or summer research opportunities. So we focus our curriculum on what we call a learn by doing philosophy. And this means that we have a combination of practical experience and learn by doing both in and out of the classroom. And we find that to be really critical for preparing students for the workforce. Here at Cal Poly, we have more than 6,000 engineering students. We're one of the largest undergraduate engineering schools in the country. And US News ranks us the eighth best undergraduate engineering program in the country and the top ranked state school. We're really, really proud that we offer this impactful hands-on engineering education that really exceeds that of virtually all private universities while reaching a wider audience of students. We offer 14 degree programs, and really, we're talking today about cyber and space, and I think most of those degree programs can really make an impact in the space and cybersecurity economy. And this includes not only things like aero and cyber directly, but also electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, materials engineering, even manufacturing, civil, and biomedical engineering, as there's a lot of infrastructure needs that go into supporting launch capabilities. Our aerospace program graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers and most of them are working right here in California with many of our corporate partners, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, SpaceX, Virgin Galactic, JPL, and so many other places where we have Cal Poly engineers impacting the space economy. Our cybersecurity focus is found mainly in our computer science and software engineering programs, and it's really a rapidly growing interest among our students. Computer science is our most popular major, and industry interests and partnerships are integrated into our cyber curriculum, and we do that oftentimes through support from industry. So we have partnerships with Northrop Grumman for professorship in a cyber lab and from PG&E for critical infrastructure cybersecurity lab and professorship. And we think that industry partnerships like these are really critical to preparing students for the future as the field is evolving so quickly and making sure we adapt our facilities and our curriculum to stay in line with what we're seeing in industry is incredibly important. In our aerospace program, we have an educational partnership with the Air Force Research Labs that's allowing us to install new high-performance computing capabilities and a space environments lab that's going to enhance our satellite design capabilities. And if we talk about satellite design, Cal Poly is the founding home of the CubeSat program, which pioneered small satellite capabilities, And we remain the worldwide leader in maintaining the CubeSat standard, and our student program has launched more CubeSats than any other program. So here again we have this learn by doing experience every year for dozens of aerospace, electrical, computer science, mechanical engineering students, and other student activities that we think are just as important include ethical hacking through our white hat club, Cal Poly Space Systems, which does really, really big rocket launches, and our support program for women in both of these fields, like WISH, which is Women In Software and Hardware. Now, you know, really trying to bring in a wide variety of people into these fields is incredibly important, and outreach and support to those demographics traditionally underrepresented in these fields is going to be really critical to future success. So by drawing on the lived experiences by people with different types of backgrounds will we develop the type of culture and environment where all of us can get to the best solution. So in terms of bringing people into the field, we see that research shows we need to reach kids when they're in late elementary and middle schools to really overcome that cultural bias that works against diversity in our fields. And you heard Bill talking about the California Cybersecurity Institute's yearly cyber challenge, and there's a lot of other people who are working to bring in a wider variety of people into the field, like Girl Scouts, which has introduced dozens of new badges over the past few years, including a whole cybersecurity series of badges in concert with Palo Alto Networks. So we have our work cut out for us, but we know what we need to do, and if we're really committed to properly preparing the workforce for today and tomorrow, I think our future is going to be bright. I'm looking forward to our discussion today. >> Thank you, Dr. Fleischer, for a great comment, opening statement, and congratulations. You got the right formula down there, the right mindset, and you got a lot of talent, and community, as well. Thank you for that opening statement. Next up, from Colorado Springs, Trung Pham, who's a professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. He's doing a lot of research around the areas that are most important for the intersection of space and technology. Trung. >> Good afternoon. First I'd like to thank Cal Poly for the opportunity. And today I want to go briefly about cybersecurity in space application. Whenever we talk about cybersecurity, the impression is that it's a new field that is really highly complex involving a lot of technical area. But in reality, in my personal opinion, it is indeed a complex field because it involves many disciplines. The first thing we think about is computer engineering and computer networking, but it's also involving communication, sociology, law practice. And this practice of cybersecurity doesn't only involve computer expert, but it's also involve everybody else who has a computing device that is connected to the internet, and this participation is obviously everybody in today's environment. When we think about the internet, we know that it's a good source of information but come with the convenience of information that we can access, we are constantly facing danger from the internet. Some of them we might be aware of. Some of them we might not be aware of. For example, when we search on the internet, a lot of time our browser will be saying that this site is not trusted, so we will be more careful. But what about the sites that we trusted? We know that those are legitimate sites, but they're not 100% bulletproof. What happen if those site are attacked by a hacker and then they will be a silent source of danger that we might not be aware of. So in the reality, we need to be more practicing the cybersecurity from our civil point of view and not from a technical point of view. When we talk about space application, we should know that all the hardware are computer-based or controlled by by computer system, and therefore the hardware and the software must go through some certification process so that they can be rated as airworthy or flightworthy. When we know that in the certification process is focusing on the functionality of the hardware and software, but one aspect that is explicitly and implicitly required is the security of those components. And we know that those components have to be connected with the ground control station, and the communication is through the air, through the radio signal, so anybody who has access to those communication radio signal will be able to control the space system that we put up there. And we certainly do not want our system to be hijacked by a third party. Another aspect of cybersecurity is that we try to design the space system in a very strong manner so it's almost impossible to hack in. But what about some other weak system that might be connected to the strong system? For example, the space system will be connected to the ground control station, and on the ground control station, we have the human controller, and those people have cell phone. They are allowed to use cell phone for communication. But at the same time, they are connected to the internet through the cell phone, and their cell phone might be connected to the computer that control the flight software and hardware. So what I want to say is we try to build strong system and we've protected them, but there will be some weaker system that we could not intended but exists to be connected to our strong system, and those are the points the hacker will be trying to attack. If we know how to control the access to those weak points, we will be having a much better system for the space system. And when we see the cybersecurity that is requiring the participation everywhere it's important to notice that there is a source of opportunity for students who enter the workforce to consider. Obviously students in engineering can focus their knowledge and expertise to provide technological solution to protect the system that we view. But we also have students in business who can focus their expertise to write business plan so that they can provide a pathway for the engineering advances to reach the market. We also have student in law who can focus their expertise in policy governing the internet, governing the cybersecurity practice. And we also have student in education who can focus their expertise to design how to teach cybersecurity practice, and student in every other discipline can focus their effort to implement security measure to protect the system that they are using in their field. So it's obvious that cybersecurity is everywhere and it implies job opportunity everywhere for everybody in every discipline of study. Thank you. >> Thank you, Trung, for those great comments. Great technology opportunities. But interesting, as well, is the theme that we're seeing across the entire symposium and in the virtual hallways that we're hearing conversations, and you pointed out some of them. Dr. Fleischer did, as well. And Bill, you mentioned it. It's not one thing. It's not just technology. It's different skills. And Amy, you mentioned that computer science is the hottest degree, but you have the hottest aerospace program in the world. I mean, so all this is kind of balancing. It's interdisciplinary. It's a structural change. Before we get into some of the, how they prepare the students, can you guys talk about some of the structural changes that are modern now in preparing in these opportunities, because societal impact is a, law potentially impact, it's how we educate. There's now cross-discipline skill sets. It's not just get the degree, see you out in the field. Bill, you want to start? >> Well, what's really fun about this job is that in the Air Force, I worked in the space and missile business, and what we saw was a heavy reliance on checklist format, security procedures, analog systems, and what we're seeing now in our world, both in the government and the commercial side, is a move to a digital environment, and the digital environment is a very quick and adaptive environment, and it's going to require a digital understanding. Matter of fact, the undersecretary of Air Force for acquisition recently referenced the need to understand the digital environment and how that's affecting acquisition. So as both Amy and Trung said, even business students are now in the cybersecurity business. And so again, what we're seeing is the change. Now, another phenomenon that we're seeing in the space world is there's just so much data. One of the ways that we addressed that in the past was to look at high-performance computing. There was a lot stricter control over how that worked. But now what we're seeing is adaptation of cloud, cloud technologies in space support, space data, command and control. And so what we see is a modern space engineer who has to understand digital, has to understand cloud, and has to understand the context of all those with a cyber environment. That's really changing the forefront of what is a space engineer, what is a digital engineer, and what is a future engineer, both commercial or government. So I think the opportunity for all of these things is really good, particularly for a polytechnic, Air Force Academy, and others that are focusing on a more widened experiential level of cloud and engineering and other capabilities. And I'll tell you the part that as the CIO I have to remind everybody, all this stuff works with the IT stuff. So you've got to understand how your IT infrastructures are tied and working together. As we noted earlier, one of the things is that these are all relays from point to point, and that architecture is part of your cybersecurity architecture. So again, every component has now become a cyber aware, cyber knowledgeable, and what we like to call as a cyber cognizant citizen where they have to understand the context. (speaking on mute) >> (indistinct) software Dr. Fleischer, talk about your perspective, 'cause you mentioned some of the things about computer science. I remember in the '80s when I got my computer science degree, they called us software engineers and then you became software developers. And then, so again, engineering is the theme. If you're engineering a system, there's now software involved, and there's also business engineering, business models. So talk about some of your comments, 'cause you mentioned computer science is hot. You got the aerospace. You got these multi-disciplines. You got definitely diversity, as well, brings more perspectives in, as well. Your thoughts on these structural interdisciplinary things? >> I think this is really key to making sure that students are prepared to work in the workforce is looking at the blurring between fields. No longer are you just a computer scientist. No longer are you just an aerospace engineer. You really have to have an expertise where you can work with people across disciplines. All of these fields are just working with each other in ways we haven't seen before. And Bill brought up data. You know, data science is something that's cross-cutting across all of our fields. So we want engineers that have the disciplinary expertise that they can go deep into these fields, but we want them to be able to communicate with each other and to be able to communicate across disciplines and to be able to work in teams that are across disciplines. You can no longer just work with other computer scientists or just work with other aerospace engineers. There's no part of engineering that is siloed anymore. So that's how we're changing. You have to be able to work across those disciplines. And as you, as Trung pointed out, ethics has to come into this. So you can no longer try to fully separate what we would traditionally have called the liberal arts and say, well, that's over there in general education. No, ethics is an important part of what we're doing and how we integrate that into our curriculum. So is communication. So is working on public policy and seeing where all these different aspects tie together to make the impact that we want to have in the world. So you no longer can work solo in these fields. >> That's great point. And Bill also mentioned the cloud. One thing about the cloud that's showed us is horizontal scalability has created a lot of value, and certainly data is now horizontal. Trung, you mentioned some of the things about cryptography for the kids out there, I mean, you can look at the pathway for career. You can do a lot of tech, but you don't have to go deep sometimes. You can as deep as you want, but there's so much more there. What technology do you see that's going to help students, in your opinion? >> Well, I'm a professor in computer science, so I like to talk a little bit about computer programming. Now we are working in complex projects. So most of the time we don't design a system from scratch. We build it from different components, and the components that we have, either we get it from vendors or sometimes we get it from the internet in the open source environment. It's fun to get the source code and then make it work to our own application. So now when we are looking at cryptology, when we talk about encryption, for example, we can easily get the source code from the internet. And the question, is it safe to use those source code? And my question is maybe not. So I always encourage my students to learn how to write source code the traditional way that I learned a long time ago before I allow them to use the open source environment. And one of the things that they have to be careful especially with encryption is the code that might be hidden in the source that they downloaded. Some of the source might be harmful. It might open up back gate for a hacker to get in later. We've heard about these back gates back then when Microsoft designed the operating system with the protection of encryption, and it is true that is existing. So while open source code is a wonderful place to develop complex system, but it's also a dangerous place that we have to be aware of. >> Great point. Before we get into the comments, one quick thing for each of you I'd like to get your comments on. There's been a big movement on growth mindset, which has been a great big believer in having a growth mindset and learning and all that good stuff. But now when you talk about some of these things we're mentioning about systems, there's a new trend around a systems mindset, because if everything's now a system, distributed systems now you have space and cybersecurity, you have to understand the consequences of changes. And you mention some of that, Trung, in changes in the source code. Could you guys share your quick opinions on the of systems thinking? Is that a mindset that people should be looking at? Because it used to be just one thing. Oh, you're a systems guy or gal. There you go. You're done. Now it seems to be in social media and data, everything seems to be systems. What's your take? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you. >> I'd say it's another way of looking at not being just so deep in your discipline. You have to understand what the impact of the decisions that you're making have on a much broader system. And so I think it's important for all of our students to get some exposure to that systems level thinking and looking at the greater impact of the decision that they're making. Now, the issue is where do you set the systems boundary, right? And you can set the systems boundary very close in and concentrate on an aspect of a design, or you can continually move that system boundary out and see where do you hit the intersections of engineering and science along with ethics and public policy and the greater society. And I think that's where some of the interesting work is going to be. And I think at least exposing students and letting them know that they're going to have to make some of these considerations as they move throughout their career is going to be vital as we move into the future. >> Bill, what's your thoughts? >> I absolutely agree with Amy. And I think there's a context here that reverse engineering and forensics analysis and forensics engineering are becoming more critical than ever. The ability to look at what you have designed in a system and then tear it apart and look at it for gaps and holes and problem sets. Or when you're given some software that's already been pre-developed, checking it to make sure it is really going to do what it says it's going to do. That forensics ability becomes more and more a skillset that also you need the verbal skills to explain what it is you're doing and what you found. So the communication side, the systems analysis side, the forensics analysis side, these are all things that are part of system approach that I think you could spend hours on and we still haven't really done a great job on it. So it's one of my fortes is really the whole analysis side of forensics and reverse engineering. >> Trung, real quick, systems thinking, your thoughts. >> Well, I'd like to share with you my experience when I worked in the space station program at NASA. We had two different approaches. One is a compound approach where we design it from the system general point of view where we put components together to be a complex system. But at the same time, we have the (indistinct) approach where we have an engineer who spent time and effort building individual component and they have to be expert in those tiny component that general component they deliver. And in the space station program, we bring together the (indistinct) engineer who designed everything in detail and the system manager who managed the system design from the top down, and we meet in the middle, and together we compromised a lot of differences and we delivered the space station that we are operating today. >> Great insight. And that's the whole teamwork collaboration that Dr. Fleischer was mentioning. Thanks so much for that insight. I wanted to get that out there because I know myself as a parent, I'm always trying to think about what's best for my kids and their friends as they grow up into the workforce. I know educators and leaders in industry would love to know some of the best practices around some of the structural changes. So thanks for that insight. But this topic's about students and helping them prepare. So we heard be multiple discipline, broaden your horizons, think like systems, top down, bottom up, work together as a team, and follow the data. So I got to ask you guys, there's a huge amount of job openings in cybersecurity. It's well-documented. And certainly with the intersection of space and cyber, it's only going to get bigger, right? You're going to see more and more demand for new types of jobs. How do we get high school and college students interested in security as a career? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you on this one. I would say really one of the best ways to get students interested in a career is to show them the impact that it's going to have. There's definitely always going to be students who are going to want to do the technology for the technology's sake, but that will limit you to a narrow set of students, and by showing the greater impact that these types of careers are going to have on the types of problems that you're going to be able to solve and the impact you're going to be able to have on the world around you, that's the word that we really need to get out. And a wide variety of students really respond to these messages. So I think it's really kind of reaching out at the elementary, the middle school level, and really kind of getting this idea that you can make a big difference, a big positive difference in the field with some of these careers, is going to be really critical. >> Real question to follow up. What do you think is the best entry point? You mentioned middle. I didn't hear elementary school. There's a lot of discussions around pipelining, and we're going to get into women in tech and underrepresented minorities later. But is it too early, or what's your feeling on this? >> My feeling is the earlier we can normalize it, the better. If you can normalize an interest in computers and technology and building in elementary school, that's absolutely critical. But the drop-off point that we're seeing is between what I would call late elementary and early middle school. And just kind of as an anecdote, I for years ran an outreach program for Girl Scouts in grades four and five and grade six, seven, and eight. And we had 100 slots in each program. And every year the program would sell out for girls in grades four and five, and every year we'd have spots remaining in grades six, seven, and eight. And that's literally where the drop-off is occurring between that late elementary and that middle school range. So that's the area that we need to target to make sure we keep those young women involved and interested as we move forward. >> Bill, how are we going to get these kids interested in security? You mentioned a few programs you got. >> Yeah. >> I mean, who wouldn't want to be a white hat hacker? I mean, that sounds exciting. >> So yeah, great questions. Let's start with some basic principles, though, is let me ask you a question, John. Name for me one white hat, good person hacker, the name, who works in the space industry and is an exemplar for students to look up to. >> You? >> Oh man, I'm feeling really... >> I'm only, I can't imagine a figure- >> (indistinct) the answer because the answer we normally get is the cricket sound. So we don't have individuals we've identified in those areas for them to look up to. >> I was going to be snarky and say most white hackers won't even use their real name, but... >> Right, so there's an aura around their anonymity here. So again, the real question is how do we get them engaged and keep them engaged? And that's what Amy was pointing out to exactly, the engagement and sticking with it. So one of the things that we're trying to do through our competition on the state level and other elements is providing connections. We call them ambassadors. These are people in the business who can contact the students that are in the game or in that challenge environment and let 'em interact and let 'em talk about what they do and what they're doing in life. But give them a challenging game format. A lot of computer-based training, capture the flag stuff is great, but if you can make it hands-on, if you can make it a learn by doing experiment, if you can make it personally involved and see the benefit as a result of doing that challenge and then talk to the people who do that on a daily basis, that's how you get them involved. The second part is part of what we're doing is we're involving partnership companies in the development of the teams. So this year's competition that we're running has 82 teams from across the state of California. Of those 82 teams at six students a team, middle school, high school, and many of those have company partners, and these are practitioners in cybersecurity who are working with those students to participate. It's that adult connectivity. It's that visualization. So at the competition this year, we have the founder of Defcon Red Flag is a participant to talk to the students. We have Vint Cerf, who is, of course, very well-known for something called the internet, to participate. It's really getting the students to understand who's in this, who can I look up to, and how do I stay engaged with them? >> There's definitely a celebrity aspect of it, I will agree. I mean, the influencer aspect here with knowledge is key. Can you talk about these ambassadors, and how far along are you on that program? First of all, the challenge stuff is, anything gamification-wise, we've seen that with hackathons, it just really works well. Creates bonding. People who create together can get sticky and get very high community aspect to it. Talk about this ambassador thing. What is that, industry, is that academic? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What is this ambassador thing? >> Industry partners that we've identified, some of which, and I won't hit all of 'em, so I'm sure I'll short change this, but Palo Alto, Cisco, Splunk, many of the companies in California, and what we've done is identified schools to participate in the challenge that may not have a strong STEM program or have any cyber program. And the idea of the company is they look for their employees who are in those school districts to partner with the schools to help provide outreach. It could be as simple as a couple hours a week, or it's a team support captain or it's providing computers and other devices to use. And so again, it's really about a constant connectivity and trying to help where some schools may not have the staff or support units in an area to really provide them what they need for connectivity. What that does is it gives us an opportunity to not just focus on it once a year, but throughout the year. So for the competition, all the teams that are participating have been receiving training and educational opportunities in the gamification side since they signed up to participate. So there's a website, there's learning materials, there's materials provided by certain vendor companies like Wireshark and others. So it's a continuum of opportunity for the students. >> You know, I've seen, just randomly, just got a random thought. Robotics clubs are moving then closer into that middle school area, Dr. Fleischer, and in certainly in high schools, it's almost like a varsity sport. E-sports is another one. My son just called me. "I made the JV at the college team." It's big and serious, right? And it's fun. This is the aspect of fun. It's hands-on. This is part of the culture down there. Learn by doing. Is there, like, a group? Is it, like, a club? I mean, how do you guys organize these bottoms-up organically interest topics? >> So here in the college of engineering, when we talk about learn by doing, we have learned by doing both in the classroom and out of the classroom. And if we look at these types of out of the classroom activities, we have over 80 clubs working on all different aspects, and many of these are bottom-up. The students have decided what they want to work on and have organized themselves around that. And then they get the leadership opportunities. The more experienced students train the less experienced students. And it continues to build from year after year after year with them even doing aspects of strategic planning from year to year for some of these competitions. Yeah, it's an absolutely great experience. And we don't define for them how their learn by doing experiences should be. We want them to define it. And I think the really cool thing about that is they have the ownership and they have the interest and they can come up with new clubs year after year to see which direction they want to take it, and we will help support those clubs as old clubs fade out and new clubs come in. >> Trung, real quick, before we go on the next talk track, what do you recommend for middle school, high school, or even elementary? A little bit of coding, Minecraft? I mean, how do you get 'em hooked on the fun and the dopamine of technology and cybersecurity? What's your take on that? >> On this aspect, I'd like to share with you my experience as a junior high and high school student in Texas. The university of Texas in Austin organized a competition for every high school in Texas in every field from poetry to mathematics to science, computer engineering. But it's not about the University of Texas. The University of Texas is only serving as a center for the final competition. They divide the competition to district and then regional and then state. At each level, we have local university and colleges volunteering to host the competition and make it fun for the student to participate. And also they connected the students with private enterprises to raise fund for scholarship. So student who see the competition is a fun event for them, they get exposed to different university hosting the event so that they can see different option for them to consider college. They also get a promise that if they participate, they will be considered for scholarship when they attend university and college. So I think the combination of fun and competition and the scholarship aspect will be a good thing to entice the student to commit to the area of cybersecurity. >> Got the engagement, the aspiration, scholarship, and you mentioned a volunteer. I think one of the things I'll observe is you guys are kind of hitting this as community. I mean, the story of Steve Jobs and Woz building the Mac, they called Bill Hewlett up in Palo Alto. He was in the phone book. And they scoured some parts from him. That's community. This is kind of what you're getting at. So this is kind of the formula we're seeing. So the next question I really want to get into is the women in technology, STEM, underrepresented minorities, how do we get them on cybersecurity career path? Is there a best practices there? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I think it's really interesting. First thing I want to add is, if I could, just a clarification. What's really cool, the competition that we have and we're running, it's run by students from Cal Poly. So Amy referenced the clubs and other activities. So many of the organizers and developers of the competition that we're running are the students, but not just from engineering. So we actually have theater and liberal arts majors and technology for liberal arts majors who are part of the competition, and we use their areas of expertise, set design and other things, visualization, virtualization. Those are all part of how we then teach and educate cyber in our gamification and other areas. So they're all involved and they're learning, as well. So we have our students teaching other students. So we're really excited about that. And I think that's part of what leads to a mentoring aspect of what we're providing where our students are mentoring the other students. And I think it's also something that's really important in the game. The first year we held the game, we had several all-girl teams, and it was really interesting because A, they didn't really know if they could compete. I mean, this is their reference point. We don't know if. They did better than anybody. I mean, they just, they knocked the ball out of the park. The second part, then, is building that confidence level that can, going back and telling their cohorts that, hey, it's not this obtuse thing you can't do. It's something real that you can compete and win. And so again, it's building that camaraderie, that spirit, that knowledge that they can succeed. And I think that goes a long way. And Amy's programs and the reach out and the reach out that Cal Poly does to schools to develop, I think that's what it really is going to take. It is going to take that village approach to really increase diversity and inclusivity for the community. >> Dr. Fleischer, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned your outreach program and the drop-off, some of those data. You're deeply involved in this. You're passionate about it. What's your thoughts on this career path opportunity for STEM? >> Yeah, I think STEM is an incredible career path opportunity for so many people. There's so many interesting problems that we can solve, particularly in cyber and in space systems. And I think we have to meet the kids where they are and kind of show them what the exciting part is about it, right? But Bill was alluding to this when he was talking about trying to name somebody that you can point to. And I think having those visible people where you can see yourself in that is absolutely critical, and those mentors and that mentorship program. So we use a lot of our students going out into California middle schools and elementary schools. And you want to see somebody that's like you, somebody that came from your background and was able to do this. So a lot of times we have students from our National Society of Black Engineers or our Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers or our Society of Women Engineers, which we have over 1,000 members, 1,000 student members in our Society of Women Engineers who are doing these outreach programs. But like I also said, it's hitting them at the lower levels, too, and Girl Scouts is actually distinguishing themselves as one of the leading STEM advocates in the country. And like I said, they developed all these cybersecurity badges starting in kindergarten. There's a cybersecurity badge for kindergartener and first graders. And it goes all the way up through late high school. The same thing with space systems. And they did the space systems in partnership with NASA. They did the cybersecurity in partnership with Palo Alto Networks. And what you do is you want to build these skills that the girls are developing, and like Bill said, work in girl-led teams where they can do it, and if they're doing it from kindergarten on, it just becomes normal, and they never think, well, this is not for me. And they see the older girls who are doing it and they see a very clear path leading them into these careers. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you used the word normalization earlier. That's exactly what it is. It's life, you get life skills and a new kind of badge. Why wouldn't you learn how to be a white hat hacker or have some fun or learn some skills? >> Amy: Absolutely. >> Just in the grind of your fun day. Super exciting. Okay, Trung, your thoughts on this. I mean, you have a diverse, diversity brings perspective to the table in cybersecurity because you have to think like the other guy, the adversary. You got to be the white hat. You can't be a white hat unless you know how black hat thinks. So there's a lot of needs here for more points of view. How are we going to get people trained on this from underrepresented minorities and women? What's your thoughts? >> Well, as a member of the IEEE Professional Society of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, every year we participate in the engineering week. We deploy our members to local junior high school and high school to talk about our project to promote the study of engineering. But at the same time, we also participate in the science fair that the state of Texas is organizing. Our engineer will be mentoring students, number one, to help them with the project, but number two, to help us identify talent so that we can recruit them further into the field of STEM. One of the participation that we did was the competition of the, what they call Future City, where students will be building a city on a computer simulation. And in recent year, we promote the theme of smart city where city will be connected the individual houses and together into the internet. And we want to bring awareness of cybersecurity into that competition. So we deploy engineer to supervise the people, the students who participate in the competition. We bring awareness not in the technical detail level, but in what we've call the compound level so student will be able to know what required to provide cybersecurity for the smart city that they are building. And at the same time, we were able to identify talent, especially talent in the minority and in the woman, so that we can recruit them more actively. And we also raise money for scholarship. We believe that scholarship is the best way to entice student to continue education at the college level. So with scholarship, it's very easy to recruit them to the field and then push them to go further into the cybersecurity area. >> Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of the parents like, oh, my kid's going to go join the soccer team, we get private lessons, and maybe they'll get a scholarship someday. Well, they only do half scholarships. Anyway. I mean, if they spent that time doing these other things, it's just, again, this is a new life skill, like the Girl Scouts. And this is where I want to get into this whole silo breaking down, because Amy, you brought this up, and Bill, you were talking about it, as well. You got multiple stakeholders here with this event. You've got public, you've got private, and you've got educators. It's the intersection of all of them. It's, again, if those silos break down, the confluence of those three stakeholders have to work together. So let's talk about that. Educators. You guys are educating young minds. You're interfacing with private institutions and now the public. What about educators? What can they do to make cyber better? 'Cause there's no real manual. I mean, it's not like this court is a body of work of how to educate cybersecurity. Maybe it's more recent. There's cutting edge best practices. But still, it's an evolving playbook. What's your thoughts for educators? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm going to turn to Amy and let her go first. >> Let you go. >> That's fine. >> I would say as educators, it's really important for us to stay on top of how the field is evolving, right? So what we want to do is we want to promote these tight connections between educators and our faculty and applied research in industry and with industry partnerships. And I think that's how we're going to make sure that we're educating students in the best way. And you're talking about that inner, that confluence of the three different areas. And I think you have to keep those communication lines open to make sure that the information on where the field is going and what we need to concentrate on is flowing down into our educational process. And that works in both ways, that we can talk as educators and we can be telling industry what we're working on and what types of skills our students have and working with them to get the opportunities for our students to work in industry and develop those skills along the way, as well. And I think it's just all part of this really looking at what's going to be happening and how do we get people talking to each other? And the same thing with looking at public policy and bringing that into our education and into these real hands-on experiences. And that's how you really cement this type of knowledge with students, not by talking to them and not by showing them, but letting them do it. It's this learn by doing and building the resiliency that it takes when you learn by doing. And sometimes you learn by failing, but you just pick up and you keep going. And these are important skills that you develop along the way. >> You mentioned sharing, too. That's the key. Collaborating and sharing knowledge. It's an open world and everyone's collaborating. Bill, private-public partnerships. I mean, there's a real, private companies, you mentioned Palo Alto Networks and others. There's a real intersection there. They're motivated. They could, there's scholarship opportunities. Trung points to that. What is the public-private educator view there? How do companies get involved and what's the benefit for them? >> Well, that's what a lot of the universities are doing is to bring in as part of either their cyber centers or institutes people who are really focused on developing and furthering those public-private partnerships. That's really what my role is in all these things is to take us to a different level in those areas, not to take away from the academic side, but to add additional opportunities for both sides. Remember, in a public-private partnership, all entities have to have some gain in the process. Now, what I think is really interesting is the timing on particularly this subject, space and cybersecurity. This has been an absolute banner year for space. The standup of Space Force, the launch of commercial partnership, you know, commercial platforms delivering astronauts to the space station, recovering them, and bringing them back. The ability of a commercial satellite platform to be launched. Commercial platforms that not only launch but return back to where they're launched from. These are things that are stirring the hearts of the American citizens, the kids, again, they're getting interested. They're seeing this and getting enthused. So we have to seize upon that and we have to find a way to connect that. Public-private partnerships is the answer for that. It's not one segment that can handle it all. It's all of them combined together. If you look at space, space is going to be about commercial. It's going to be about civil. Moving from one side of the Earth to the other via space. And it's about government. And what's really cool for us, all those things are in our backyard. That's where that public-private comes together. The government's involved. The private sector's involved. The educators are involved. And we're all looking at the same things and trying to figure out, like this forum, what works best to go to the future. >> You know, if people are bored and they want to look for an exciting challenge, you couldn't have laid it out any clearer. It's the most exciting discipline. It's everything. I mean, we just talk about space. GPS is, everything we do is involved, has to do with satellites. (laughs) >> I have to tell you a story on that right? We have a very unique GPS story right in our backyard. So our sheriff is the son of the father of GPS for the Air Force. So you can't get better than that when it comes to being connected to all those platforms. So we really want to say, you know, this is so exciting for all of us because it gives everybody a job for a long time. >> You know, the kids that think TikTok's exciting, wait till they see what's going on here with you guys, this program. Trung, final word on this from the public side. You're at the Air Force. You're doing research. Are you guys opening it up? Are you integrating into the private and educational sectors? How do you see that formula playing out? And what's the best practice for students and preparing them? >> I think it's the same in every university in the engineering program will require our students to do the final project before graduation. And in this kind of project, we send them out to work in the private industry, the private company that sponsor them. They get the benefit of having an intern working for them and they get the benefit of reviewing the students as the prospective employee in the future. So it's good for the student to gain practical experience working in this program. Sometimes we call that a co-op program. Sometimes we call that a capstone program. And the company will accept the student on a trial basis, giving them some assignment and then pay them a little bit of money. So it's good for the student to earn some extra money, to have some experience that they can put on their resume when they apply for the final, for the job. So the collaboration between university and private sector is really important. When I join a faculty normally there already exist that connection. It came from normally, again, from the dean of engineering, who would wine and dine with companies, build up relationship, and sign up agreement. But it's us professor who have to do the (indistinct) approach to do a good performance so that we can build up credibility to continue the relationship with those company and the student that we selected to send to those company. We have to make sure that they will represent the university well, they will do a good job, and they will make a good impression. >> Thank you very much for a great insight, Trung, Bill, Amy. Amazing topic. I'd like to end this session with each of you to make a statement on the importance of cybersecurity to space. We'll go Trung, Bill, and Amy. Trung, the importance of cybersecurity to space, brief statement. >> The importance of cybersecurity, we know that it's affecting every component that we are using and we are connecting to, and those component, normally we use them for personal purpose, but when we enter the workforce, sometimes we connect them to the important system that the government or the company are investing to be put into space. So it's really important to practice cybersecurity, and a lot of time, it's very easy to know the concept. We have to be careful. But in reality, we tend to forget to to practice it the way we forget how to drive a car safely. And with driving a car, we have a program called defensive driving that requires us to go through training every two or three years so that we can get discount. Every organization we are providing the annual cybersecurity practice not to tell people about the technology, but to remind them about the danger of not practicing cybersecurity and it's a requirement for every one of us. >> Bill, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> It's not just about young people. It's about all of us. As we grow and we change, as I referenced it, we're changing from an analog world to a digital world. Those of us who have been in the business and have hair that looks like mine, we need to be just as cognizant about cybersecurity practice as the young people. We need to understand how it affects our lives, and particularly in space, because we're going to be talking about people, moving people to space, moving payloads, data transfer, all of those things. And so there's a whole workforce that needs to be retrained or upskilled in cyber that's out there. So the opportunity is ever expansive for all of us. >> Amy, the importance of cybersecurity in space. >> I mean the emphasis of cybersecurity is space just simply can't be over emphasized. There are so many aspects that are going to have to be considered as systems get ever more complex. And as we pointed out, we're putting people's lives at stake here. This is incredibly, incredibly complicated and incredibly impactful, and actually really exciting, the opportunities that are here for students and the workforce of the future to really make an enormous impact on the world around us. And I hope we're able to get that message out to students and to children today, that these are really interesting fields that you need to consider. >> Thank you very much. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and the importance of cybersecurity and space is the future of the world's all going to happen in and around space with technology, people, and society. Thank you to Cal Poly, and thank you for watching the Cybersecurity and Space Symposium 2020. (bright music)

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello everyone? Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly and theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We have a great session here. Space cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. We have Bong Gumahad, Director of C4ISR, Directorate Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment for the DOD. And Chris Henson, Technical Director Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity. A lot going on, congestion, contention, freedom, evolution, innovation. So Bong, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective. >> John, thanks for the intro, really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal Poly for convening the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium this year. And despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery is pretty impressive. I really foot stomping what can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms. This has been awesome, thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Henson from NSA, who is actually assigned to our staff at the OUSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll find his commentary and positions on things very refreshing for today's seminar. Now space cybersecurity is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Cybersecurity means protecting against cyber threats. And it's really more than just computers here on earth. Space is the newest war fighting domain and cybersecurity is perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain than others. I'm sure Lieutenant General Thompson and Major John Shaw discuss the criticality of this new Space Force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my advantage point as part of the Acquisition and Sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Well, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the National Defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of C4ISR, I have come to understand how the integration of C4ISR capability is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the Under Secretary for Acquisition and Sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project lethality in contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency 4ISR infrastructure. We are also cultivating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collaboratively planning with those who partner with us in the fight. Most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others, land, air and sea. All are important to the defense of the US. In conflict, no doubt about this, they will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts and in a joint operation in a future fight and the future conflict they must all succeed. I see three areas being key toward DOD strategic success in space. One, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies. Two, prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation and adaptive operations. And third, responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance US strengths, partnerships and alliances. Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential to lethality operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, for the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space, if you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force coordinated across all domains. We call it the Joint All Domain Command and Control, JADC2. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of JADC2 is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them. Operationally, JADC2 seeks to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability to sense signal, connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance space awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings in these systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield in an environment challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors. In space, the character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensory diversity, and many more. As I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in their efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes. SpaceX Starlink Constellation is one example. Another one is Amazon's Kuiper. Kuiper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different nodes. While a number of these companies continue to grow, some have struggled. Case in point is OneWeb. Nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taken advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding our small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is to enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris will talk more about that, being that he's the expert in this area. One challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity is unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy. The trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields. During the next session, I am a part of a panel with president Armstrong at Cal Poly, and Steve Jacques, the founder of the National Security Space Association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having this dialogue surrounding space cybersecurity with Chris and John. Thank you, John. >> Bong, thank you for that opening statement and yes, workforce gaps, we need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson's Technical Director of Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Your opening statement. >> Thank you for having me. I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the National Security Agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment. I work under Mr. Gumahad in the C4ISR area. But almost 63 years ago, on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet Union and space history was made. And each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the US isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese Space Agency, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address the idea that the communications command and control and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only .go, .mil, .com, .edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk accepted by one is shared by all. And sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, data vulnerabilities, threat data mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways in expanding the space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions, thank you. >> Thank you, Chris, thank you, Bong. Okay, I mean, open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial, government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bong, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD's role in addressing cybersecurity in space? It's real, it's a new frontier. It's not going away, it's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. What's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >> I think our role is to be the leader in developing not only is it the strategy, but the implementation plans to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the National Cyber Strategy, I think published in 2018, calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, digital safety policy, advocacy, and research. You here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products as examples and capabilities, you're pushing the goal to provision. When you know what's on your network, patch network, backup and encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia, in the case of Cal Poly, civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that. Cyber security, and I think Chris will definitely back me up on this, more than passwords encryption or firewall. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling mission to succeed in assured and in a resilient fashion. >> Chris, you're take and reaction to the cybersecurity challenge involved here. >> It's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, you know, the recent security policy Directive-5 that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as Mr. Gumahad said, is the leadership role. And that leadership blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry, partnership with academia, partnership with other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships blend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics, as we come up with best practices, as we come up with mitigation strategies, and as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information. We're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas. That the DOD has to be involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. And that deployment involves, as Mr. Gumahad said, encryption, authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the fabric of that network, and if nothing else, this internet of things and work from home environment that we've partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different locations. Well, space will be that natural node, that natural next network in measure involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on, not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. The calm segment, the space vehicle, and the ground portion. >> You know, Bong, we talked about this in our other segment around with the president of Cal Poly, but the operating models of the Space Force and of the DOD and getting to space. But it's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue 'cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, we know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment so it's software defined. That just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, "Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down "or make the GPS do something different?" I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server, you got to really protect. >> Right, because in one hand it space will carry not only focal national security information, but if you look at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of a lot of countries, institutions, you know, more and more John, they'll be using space assets to make all that happen. So, and if you look at the, you mentioned the attack vectors in space. It's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, the tasking that you need to do, the command and controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the birds, the satellites, you know, they all need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to hacking, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, the potential of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >> Gentlemen, like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, Bong, you mentioned it. You want to be a leader, I get it, the DOD is Department of Defense, it's a new frontier to defend war time zone, you mentioned war time opportunity potentially. But how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD, Department of Defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint? Do you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end-to-end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise, it's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and nix and devices. It's IOT, it's all this and all new. This is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >> Yeah, I think the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead in terms of being the only source of funding for a lot of highly developmental efforts. We're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways allies commercial companies are actually leading the R&D of a lot different technology. So we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think leadership can come in, by partnering a lot more with the commercial companies. In 2020, the DOD released the Defense Space Strategy, as an example, that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by setting example of how we counter the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but the civilian and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire to state space. Our lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations, like I mentioned before. Shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners in industry and other US governmental departments and agencies to advance the cost of space. To take full advantage of what space can provide us in DOD and the nation. >> Chris as a domain now, what's your take on all of this? Because again, it's going to take more people, more diverse, potentially more security hauls. What's your view on this? >> Well, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the architecture. Where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about. Where it talks about the authentication, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication credential, or other aspects of the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. Another area is in a topic that you touched on as well, was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And you know, this vast array of software code that's going into system nowadays. And then that frees up our human exquisite talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor vulnerability, fix a vulnerability. They can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those unknown hidden lines of code that get put into a software library and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >> That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash, all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device. And this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed, all the processors all built in. So there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just efficiencies. But this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts? >> Yeah, it's a serious threat and not just for the US space supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain you access with large, I think it's a threat that's this real we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently involving, I think our law and services, where there was a foreign threat that was trying to get into a troop through with predatory investments. So it is something that we need to be aware of, it's happening and will continue to happen. It's an easy way to gain access to do our IP. And so it's something that we are serious about in terms of awareness and countering. >> Chris, your thoughts? I mean, I'm an open source guy. We've seen it when I grew up in the industry in the '80s open source became a revolution. But with that, it enabled new tactics for state sponsored attacks and that became a domain in of itself. That's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring a supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? (chuckles) Who's got what software and what device... Where the chip from? Who made it? Just the potential is everywhere. How do you see these tactics? Whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing, startup, big company-- >> Yeah, so when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip. Then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our are industries that have these companies that are being purchased or a large born investment influx into those, they can be suspect. And we have to be very careful with those and do the tracking of those, especially when those, some of those parts and mechanisms are coming from off shore. And again, going back to the Space Policy Directive-5, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the quantitative ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from, and the tracking and delivery of that from an end-to-end system. And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that's the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out do the systems perform as they stated on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be, before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >> Great point, this federal views-- >> The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you launch the bird or the satellite, your access to it is diminished significantly, right? Unless you go up there and take it down. So, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts to ensure that is performing as described there, as specified with good knowledge that it's trustworthy. And so we do that all on the ground before we take it up to launch it. >> It's funny, you want agility, you want speed, and you security, and you want reliability, and risk management. All aggressive, and it's a technical problem, it's a business model problem. Love to get real quick before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys to just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view? If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the role with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity? >> Chris, why don't you take that on and I'll follow up. >> Okay, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the Department of Defense that cyber security is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we look at the vendors and how they implement and employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security. That when we want to write a contract or a vendor for a purchase that's going to go into a space system, we'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up, before it even gets put into a larger system. So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and started to employ beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in the out years. How important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this. In fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, not just in the Department of Defense, that they're going to adopt an approach like this. So it shows the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that all can build on. >> Bong, your reaction. >> Yeah, I'll just add to that. John, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we track commercial entities or people into the space and cyber security domains? I can tell you that at least my view of it, space and cybersecurity are new. It's exciting, it's challenging, a lot of technical challenges there. So I think in terms of attracting the right people and personnel to work those areas, I think it's not only intellectually challenging, but it's important for the defensing and near States. And it's important for economic security at large for us as well. So I think in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in those domains, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >> Awesome, I loved your talk on intro track there. Bong, you mentioned the three key areas of DOD success, developing a whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical, and the allies. Prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology seem to be fast. I think all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the Defense Space Strategy. In 2020, the DOD released dispense Defense Space Strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? >> Right, well, I think as I said before, Chris as well, you know, we're seeing that space will be highly contested because it's a critical element in our war fighting construct. To win our future conflict, I think we need to win space as well. So when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts in China to take that advantage away from the United States. So the threat is real, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. And the more we use space, for both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threats, some AFAs itself in forms of cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. So, yeah, so the threat is indeed growing, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, like we do now in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on within DOD. How do we protect our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trustworthy and free of any interference. >> Chris, exciting time, I'm mean, if you're in technology, this is crossing many lines here, tech, society, war time defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >> Yeah and I think that expansion is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we think of our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets and so on that have just continued to get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems, when we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's can be repurposed into a small vehicle, and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we can afford to get rapid experiments, rapid exploitations and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, DevSecOps, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re-addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's relevant and new. And the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >> Well, that brings us to the next big topic. I want to spend the remainder of our time on, that is workforce, this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join immediately. It's so much fun, it's exciting, and it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind adding space to it. So this is the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this? It's not just STEM, it's everything. >> Yeah, it's everything, you know, the opportunities we have in space, it's significant and tremendous. And I think if I were young again, as you pointed out, John, you know, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago, but it continues to be exciting, lots of opportunities, you know. When you look at some of the commercial space systems are being put up, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before and Amazon's Kuiper Constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally, and that sort of thing. And they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. We're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by companies, both within the US and foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities. There's technical challenges galore in terms of not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate flexibly and get the most you can out of the capabilities we have operating up in space. >> Besides being cool, I mean, everyone looks at launch of space gets millions of views on live streams, the On-Demand reruns get millions and millions of views. There's a lot of things there. So, Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Jobs, skills, what's the aperture? What's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there? >> I'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our Space Force. And I mean, their job is to train and equip each air space and that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up to have a Space Force that's dedicated to training, equipping, an acquisition and a deployment model that will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our strategic way of how this company, country employees space altogether. So having a Space Force, I think, is a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of what you're asking and that addresses a larger workforce, we need so many different talents in this area. We can employ a variety of people from technical writers, to people who write and develop software to those who bending metal and actually working in a hardware environment. And those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a weather data, or we're looking at from a sensor, recent events on shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open for a variety of backgrounds. And those that really just want to take an opportunity, take a technical degree, or a degree that can apply itself to a tough problem, because they certainly exist in space. And we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration. Or somebody who knows how to actually make operations safer, better through space situation awareness. So there's a huge swath of opportunity for us. >> Bong, talk about the cybersecurity enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings, supply chain, we just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that are enabled by it, if you think about it. And this is what the students at Cal Poly and every other college and university, community college, you name it, who are watching videos on YouTube. Anyone with a brain can jump in if they see the future. It's all net news. Space Force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cyber secure systems. Your thoughts? >> Absolutely, I was had planned on attending the Cyber Challenge that's Cal Poly had planned in June. Of course, the pandemic took care of that plan, but I was intrigued by the approach that the Cal Poly was taking with middle school and high school kids of exposing him to a problem set. Here, you have a satellite that came down from space and part of the challenge was to do forensic analysis on the debris, the remaining pieces of the satellite to figure out what happened. It had a cyber cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked, it was attacked by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with the remaining parts of the satellite, figure out what happened. So it was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I look forward to future events like that, to get our young people intrigued and interested in this new field of space. Now, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, there're opportunities that you talk about, while I would like to have people come to the government, to help us out, it's not just focused on government. There's lots of opportunities in commercial space, if you will, for a lot of talent to participate in. So the challenge is immense, both government and the commercial sector, John. >> I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD, I want to work for NSA, I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission. But for the folks out there, Chris and Bong that are like, "Do I qualify?" It's like the black box of the DOD, it's like a secret thing, you got to get clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. Is it like that, and will that continue? 'Cause some people might say, "Hey, can I even get involved? "What do I do?" So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved in that they might not know about? >> For NSA, there's a variety of workforce initiatives that for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's several NSA schools across the country that have academic and cyber sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive nature that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into an intelligence organization. And the other agencies have those opportunities as well across the intelligence community. And the partnership between and collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the Department of Defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon, just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of that partnering that's going on today. >> So there's some innovation. Bong, nontraditional pathways to find talent, what are out there, what are new? What are these new nontraditional ways? >> I was going to add to what Chris was mentioning, John. Even within DOD and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary Defense signed the, what we call the DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy into effect. And that included a program called the Cyber Information Technology Exchange Program. It's an exchange program in which a private sector employee can work for the DOD in cyber security positions span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will. Going back to what we talked about, kind of opportunities within the government for somebody who might be interested. You don't have to be super smart, dork in space, there's a lot of, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people, talented people to conduct the mission in space. So you don't have to be mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for any types of talent, any type of academic disciplines that are out there. >> All right, thank you, and Chris's shout out to the Space Force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's going to create some activation for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve, new threats to take on, and move it on. So really super conversation, space and cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. Bong and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you Bong and then Chris. Summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal Poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the Department of Defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >> Chris, want to go and take that on? >> That's right, thank you. Cybersecurity applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration. And the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants cyber security safeguards. In any economic espionage, your data exfiltration, or denied access to that data, i.e. ransomware or some other attack, that can cripple any business or government endeavor, no matter how small or large, if it's left unprotected. And our economic backbone clearly depends on space. And GPS is more than just a direction finding, banking needs that T and timing from P and T or whether it just systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not. Even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. All those space space assets require protection from spoofing date, data denial, or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics or intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command as we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive, real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical going forward. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and talking on this important topic. Thank you, Chris Henson. Bong Gumahad, closing remarks? >> Yeah, likewise, John, again, as Chris said, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this very important around space cybersecurity, as well as addressing at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have people in the mix for future. (indistinct) We discussed, we need to start that recruiting early as we're doing to address the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We absolutely need smart and innovative people to protect both our economic wellbeing as a nation, as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John. And again, thank you and Cal Poly host for having this symposium and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you. >> Gentlemen, thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, the Cal Poly. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, your host. Thank you for watching. (soft music)

>>Live from Denver, Colorado. It's the cube covering comm vault. Go 2019 brought to you by Combolt. >>Hey, good morning. Welcome to the cubes coverage of combo go 19 I'm Lisa Martin and it was stupid man. Hey Sue. Hey Lisa. Are you ready? I was going to ask you. Yes. Are you ready? >>I believe the statement this morning was, we're born ready. >>We are born ready? Yes. That was a big theme this morning. It's the theme of the event here at con Volvo 19 in Colorado and great parody this morning of all these old video clips of all these actors including the Lego movie stars from saying I'm ready. Even SpongeBob. That one got me, so we had a great day. Yesterday's to love some news came out Monday and Tuesdays a lots of great stuff to talk about. We had there a lot of their C level execs and let a new changes a call yesterday. Really got the vibe of, Hey, this is a new Combalt. >>It's interesting Lisa, because one of the things we've been talking about is the 20 years of pedigree that the company has. This Andre Mirchandani said yet they're doing some new items. I was talking to some of the partners in there like how come metallics like a separate brand, don't you worry about brand spread? We knew a thing about having too many brands on the program so it is the history, the experience, the lessons learned, the war chest as they said of all of the things that have gone wrong over the years and I sure know that from my time living on the vendor side is there's no compression algorithm for all the experience you've had and like, Oh we fixed something in that stays in the code as opposed to there's something brand new might need to work through things over time but metallic a separate brand but leveraging the partnerships and the go to market and the experience of Convolt overall. >>So if you want, my quick take is, you know metallic. I definitely, I think coming out of here is the thing we will be talking the most about their SAS plus model. I want to see how that plays in the marketplace. As I probed Rob, when we interviewed him, customers, when you think about SAS, it should just be, I worry about my data and I get up and running and they said they have a very fast up and running less than 15 minutes. That's great. But some of that optionality that they built in, Oh well I can bring this along or I can add this and do this. It's always worried that a wait, do I have to remember my thing? And as it changes down the road, do I have everything set up right? Those are things that we're trying to get away from when we go to a SAS or cloud model. >>And to your point, another theme of the show has been about operational simplification, not just what Combolt is doing internally to simplify their operations, but what they need to deliver to customers. Customers want simplicity rates. Do we, we talk about that at every show regardless of industry, but there is this, this line, and maybe it's blurring, >>like we talked a lot about blurred lines yesterday of too much choice versus simplification. Where's the line there? >> Yeah and a great point Lisa, so one of the items Sandra Mirchandani said yesterday in his keynote was that blurring the line between primary and secondary storage and I probed him on our interview is Convolt going into the primary storage market with Hedvig. Hedvig has got a, you know, a nice offering, strong IP, good engineering team. I think they want to make sure that customers that have bought head vigor want to keep buying Hedvig we'll do it, but it really, I think two years from now when you look back at is that core IP, how does that get baked into the solution? That's why they bought it. That's where it's going to be there. I don't think we're going to be looking two years from now and saying, Oh wow know Convolt they're going up against all the storage star Walton competing a bit gets HCI and everything. >>They have a strong partnership, so I think I got clarity on that for the most part, even though the messaging will will move over time on that, it will move over time on that. >> That's a good point that the song blurred lines kept popping into my head yesterday as we were talking about that. But one of the things that was clear was when we spoke with Rob Kalusi and about metallic, we spoke with Avinash Lakshman about Hedvig Sanjay as well as Don foster. They're already working on the technical integration of of this solutions and we even spoke with their VP of pricing. So from a customer, from a current Hedvig customer perspective, there is focus on that from Combolt's perspective. It's not just about integrating the technologies and obviously that has to be done really well, but it's also about giving customers that consistency and really for combo kind of a new era of transparency with respect to pricing. >>And another thing we talked about some of that transformation of the channel and Mercer row came on board only a couple of days officially on the job. He's helped a number of companies get ready for multicloud and absolutely we've seen that change in the channel over the last five to 10 years. Know back in his days when he was at VM world at VMware there the channel was, Oh my gosh, you know, when Amazon wins we all lose and today we understand it as much more nuance there. The channel that is successful partners with the hyperscale cloud environments, they have practices built around it. The office three 65 and Microsoft practices are an area that Convolt in their partners should be able to do well with and the metallic will tie into as well as of course AWS. The 800 pound gorilla in this space will be there. Combolt plays into that and you know, setting the channel up for that next generation with the SAS, with the software and living in a broader multicloud environment is definitely something to watch you a lot of news about the channel, not just from a leadership standpoint but also so metallic for the mid market >>really delivered exclusively through the channel but also the new initiative that they have. And we talked a little bit about this yesterday about going after and really a big focus with global systems integrators on the largest global enterprises. And when we spoke with their GTM chief of staff yesterday along with Mercer with Carmen, what they're doing, cause I said, you know, channel partners, all the channel partners that they work with work with their competitors. So you have to really deliver differentiation and it can't just be about pricing or marketing messaging goes all the way into getting those feet on the street. And that's another area in which we heard yesterday Combolt making strategic improvements on more feet on the street co-selling with partners, really pulling them deeper into enablement and trainings and to them that's one of the key differentiators that they are delivering to their partners. Yeah >>and Lisa, he, we got to speak to a number, a couple of customers we have more coming on today. It's a little bit telling that you know the average customer you talk to, they have five 10 years of experience there. They are excited about some of the new offerings, but as we've said many times metallic, the new Hedvig we want to talk to the new logos that they're going to get on board. That is something that for the partners has been an incentive. There were new incentives put in place to help capture those new logos because as we know, revenue was actually down in the last fiscal year a bit and Convolt feels that they have turned the corner, they're all ready to go. And one other note I'd like to make, the analogy I used last year is we knew a CEO was canoe CEO search was happening, a lot of things were in motion and it's almost as if you were getting the body ready for an organ transplant and you make sure that the antibodies aren't going to reject it. And in conversation with Sanjay, he was very cognizant of that. His background is dev offs and he was a CIO. We went for it, he was the CEO of puppet. So he's going to make things move even faster. And the pace of change of the last nine months is just the beginning of the change. And for the most part I'm not hearing grumbling underneath the customer seem fully on board. The employees are energized and definitely there was good energy last year, but a raise of the enthusiasm this year. >>Well Stu, first of all, you have just been on fire the last two days comparing their CEO transition to getting a body ready for a transplant. It's probably one of the best things I've heard in a long time. That was awesome. But you're right, we've heard a lot of positivity. Cultural change is incredibly difficult. You talked a minute ago about this as a 20 year old company and as we all have all experience and the industries in which we're in, you know, one of the things that's important is, is messaging that experience and talking about the things that that worked well, but also the things that didn't work well, that they've learned from that message was carried through the keynote this morning. That three customers on stage that we saw before we had to come to the side. And I, I had, my favorite was from Sonic healthcare. Matthew McCabe's coming on in shortly with us and I always appreciate, you know, I think the voice of the customer is the best brand validation that you can get. However, what's even better is a customer talking about when the technologies that they're using fail because it does happen. How are they positioned with the support and the training and the education that is giving them to make those repairs quickly to ensure business continuity and ensure disaster recovery. I think that to me that speaks volumes about the legacy, the 20 years of experience that combo has. >>Yeah, no, Lisa, you're absolutely right. There's certain products out there that we talk about uptime in 100% in this space. You, I believe the stat was about 94% success rate and we had NASA in the keynote yesterday talking about success versus partial success versus failures and Convolt really embraces that and has customers that we'll talk about that because there are times that things will happen and there are things that you need to be able to recover from ransomware. Often it is not a question of if, when it is going to be happened, at least. The other thing I want to get your comment on Jimmy chin who is the director and one of the, the cameraman of the free solo Oscar-winning free solo documentary definitely gave me a little bit of, Oh my gosh, look at some of the Heights and I was nervous just looking at some of this stuff they're doing. I like a little bit of lightweight hiking. I'm not a mountain climber, nothing like that. But he talked about when the camera goes on, there's that added pressure that goes on and it's sitting there. It's like, yeah, you know, we sit here live all day doing that. There's that, that energy to perform. But you know, we all appreciate the everybody watching and understanding that we're all human here and every time, every once in awhile a word or a mistake gets in there, but we keep going summit. Yeah, >>that's life. But also Jimmy chin, phenomenal. I think at 2018 they just won the Oscar just earlier this year for free. Solo. I have to watch that this weekend. But a couple of things that he talked about is that failure is a huge part of preparation. Couldn't agree more. What a simplified statement for somebody that not only has has skied Everest, the climbed Meru, I think they call it the shark fin of India, but what you talked about with what he documented with free solo and all of the thousands of sequences and he talked about that, Alex, I'm forgetting his last name, the guy who closed, who free soloed, El Capitan, all of these different failure scenarios that he rehearsed over and over again in case he encountered any of them, he would immediately be to remedy that situation and get himself back on track. I thought that message to me, failure is a good F-word if you use it properly. You know NASA, you mentioned yesterday and NASA was famous for coining in the 60s failure is not an option and I always say onto that cause I used to work for NASA, but it's a distinct possibility. And so what Jimmy chin shared this morning was electrified, but it also was a great understatement of what Combolt is helping their customers. We have to help you prepare for this. We can't help you prepare for all of it. As you mentioned, ransomware, it's not if but when. >>Well, right and both NASA and when the climbing is understanding where something could go wrong and therefore what the failures scenarios are. So you know rockets today you can't have a failure and by failure they mean look, if the rocket isn't going to work or something goes wrong, we need to make sure we don't have loss of life. That is something that if you look at blue origin and SpaceX that is pre eminent in there is we can't have another challenger disaster. We can't have some of these environments where we have the loss of human life. So that is number one. Some of the other ones, sometimes we know that the unknown happens or things don't go quite right. So being prepared to understand if something goes wrong, how do we recover from that? And that brings us back to the whole data protection and recovery of the environment because the best laid architecture, eventually something will happen and therefore we need to make sure that that data, the lifeblood of the company is able to be recovered and used and that the business can go forward even if some piece of infrastructure or some attack got through. >>There are, and there's inherent risk in every industry, whether you're talking about healthcare data, we talked with AstraZeneca yesterday, you know, genetics, clinical data, or you're talking about a retailer, doesn't matter. There's an inherent risks with every business and one of the most important things that I got out of the NASA talk yesterday, Jimmy Chin's talked today, some of the customers, is that preparation is key. You can't be over prepared. You really can't act fact. He said that you can't be overprepared in his line of work, but I think it applies to the inherent risks that any business has. Managing data. As we talk about Sue all the time, it's the lifeblood. It's the new oil. It is. It has to be available, accessible 24 by seven if it isn't and can't be. Businesses are massive risk in this day and age. Competitive competitors who have maybe better risk fault tolerance scenario in play. >>So that risk that they have to mitigate comes a preparation. We're going to be talking with Sandra Hamilton in just a few minutes about who leads customer success for combo. Really want to dig into the training, the support. We've heard that articulated from customers on stage that I don't wake up in the middle of the night anymore because I have this support from my trusted vendor combo and that is critical to any business staying up. Absolutely. We're going to hear from number of customers. I'm sure they're ready and we are ready for day two. We are ready. See, let's have a great day. Yeah, thanks. All right, so Sue and I will be right back with our first guest on day two of our coverage of comm Volkow for Stu. I'm Lisa Martin. We'll be right back.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Informatica World 2019. Brought to you by Informatica. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Informatica World 2019. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, John Furrier. We have two guests for this segment. We have Charlie Emer. He is the senior director data management and governance strategy at Honeywell. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> And Randy Mickey, senior vice president global professional services at Informatica. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Charlie, I want to start with you. Honeywell is a household name, but tell us a little bit about the business now and about your role at Honeywell. >> Think about it this way. When I joined Honeywell, even before I knew Honeywell, all I thought was thermostats. That's what people would think about Honeywell. >> That's what I thought. >> But Honeywell's much bigger than that. Look, if you go back to the Industrial Revolution, back in, I think, '20s, we talked about new things. Honeywell was involved from the beginning making things. But we think this year and moving forward in this age, Honeywell is looking at it as the new Industrial Revolution. What is that? Because Honeywell makes things. We make aircraft engines, we make aircraft parts. We make everything, household goods, sensors, all types of sensors. We make things. So when we say the new Industrial Revolution is about the Internet of Things, who best to participate because we make those things. So what we are doing now is what we call IIOT, Industrial Internet of Things. Now, that is what Honeywell is about, and that's the direction we are heading, connecting those things that we make and making them more advancing, sort of making life easier for people, including people's quality of life by making those things that we make more usable for them and durable. >> Now, you're a broad platform customer of Informatica. I'd love to hear a little bit from both of you about the relationship and how it's evolved over the years. >> Look, we look at Informatica as supporting our fundamentals, our data fundamentals. For us to be successful in what we do, we need to have good quality data, well governed, well managed, and secure. Not only that, and also accessible. And we using Informatica almost end to end. We are using Informatica for our data movement ETL platform. We're using Informatica for our data quality. We're using Informatica for our master data management. And we have Informatica beginning now to explore and to use Informatica big data management capabilities. And more to that, we also utilize Informatica professional services to help us realize those values from the platforms that we are deploying. IIoT, Industrial IoT has really been a hot trend. Industrial implies factories building big things, planes, wind farms, we've heard that before. But what's interesting is these are pre-existing physical things, these plants and all this manufacturing. When you add digital connectivity to it and power, it's going to change what they were used to be doing to new things. So how do you see Industrial IoT changing or creating a builder culture of new things? Because this connect first, got to have power and connectivity. 5G's coming around, Wi-Fi 6 is around the corner. This is going to light up all these devices that might have had battery power or older databases. What's the modernization of these industrial environments going to look like in your view? First of all, let me give you an example of the value that is coming with this connectivity. Think of it, if you are an aircraft engineer. Back in the day, a plane landed in Las Vegas. You went and inspected it, physically, and checked in your manual when to replace a part. But now Honeywell is telling you, we're connecting directly to the mechanic who is going to inspect the plane, and there will be sort of in their palms they can see and say wait a minute. This part, one more flight and I should replace this part. Now, we are advising you now, doing some predictive analytics, and telling you when this part could even fail. We're telling you when to replace it. So we're saying okay, the plane is going to fly from here to California. Prepare the mechanics in California when it lands with the part so they can replace it. That's already safety 101. So guaranteeing safety, sort of improving the equity or the viability of the products that we produce. When we're moving away from continue to build things because people still need those things built, safety products, but we're just making them more. We've heard supply chain's a real low-hanging fruit on this, managing the efficiency so there's no waste. Having someone ready at the plane is efficient. That's kind of low-hanging fruit. Any ideas on some of the creativity of new applications that's going to come from the data? Because now you start getting historical data from the connections, that's where I think the thing can get interesting here. Maybe new jobs, new types of planes, new passenger types. >> We are not only using the data to improve on the products and help us improve customer needs, design new products, create new products, but we also monitorizing that data, allowing our partners to also get some insights from that data to develop their own products. So creating sort of an environment where there is a partnership between those who use our products. And guess what, most of the people who use our products, our products actually input into their products. So we are a lot more business-to-business company than a B2C. So I see a lot of value in us being able to share that intelligence, that insight, in our data at a level of scientific discovery for our partners. >> Randy, I want to bring you into the conversation a little bit here (laughs). >> Thanks. >> So you lead Informatica's professional services. I'm interested to hear your work with Honeywell, and then how it translates to the other companies that you engage with. Honeywell is such a unique company, 130 years of innovation, inventor of so many important things that we use in our everyday lives. That's not your average company, but talk a little bit about their journey and how it translates to other clients. >> Sure, well, you could tell, listening to Charlie, how strategic data is, as well as our relationship. And it's not just about evolution from their perspective, but also you mentioned the historicals and taking advantage of where you've been and where you need to go. So Charlie's made it very clear that we need to be more than just a partner with products. We need to be a partner with outcomes for their business. So hence, a professional services relationship with Honeywell and Charlie and the organization started off more straightforward. You mentioned ETL, and we started off 2000, I believe, so 19 years ago. So it's been a journey already, and a lot more to go. But over the years you can kind of tell, using data in different ways within the organization, delivering business outcomes has been at the forefront, and we're viewed strategically, not just with the products, but professional services as well, to make sure that we can continue to be there, both in an advisory capacity, but also in driving the right outcomes. And something that Charlie even said this morning was that we were kind of in the fabric. We have a couple of team members that are just like Honeywell team members. We're in the fabric of the organization. I think that's really critically important for us to really derive the outcomes that Charlie and the business need. >> And data is so critical to their business. You have to be, not only from professional services, but as a platform. Yes. This is kind of where the value comes from. Now, I can't help but just conjure up images of space because I watch my kids that watch, space is now hot. People love space. You see SpaceX landing their rocket boosters to the finest precision. You got Blue Origin out there with Amazon. And they are Honeywell sensors either. Honeywell's in every manned NASA mission. You have a renaissance of activity going on in a modern way. This is exciting, this is critical. Without data, you can't do it. >> Absolutely, I mean, also sometimes we take a break. I'm a fundamentalist. I tell everybody that excitement is great, but let's take a break. Let's make sure the fundamentals are in place. And we actually know what is it, what are those critical data that we need to be tracking and managing? Because you don't just have to manage a whole world of data. There's so much of it, and believe me, there's not all value in everything. You have to be critical about it and strategic about it. What are the critical data that we need to manage, govern, and actually, because it's expensive to manage the critical data. So we look at a value tree as well, and say, okay, if we, as Honeywell, want to be able to be also an efficient business enabler, we have to be efficient inside. So there's looking out, and there's also looking inside to make sure that we are in the right place, we are understanding our data, our people understand data. Talking about our relationship with IPS, Informatica Professional Services, one of the things that we're looking at is getting the right people, the engineers, the people to actually realize that okay, we have the platform, we've heard of Clare, We heard of all those stuff. But where are the people to actually go and do the real stuff, like actually programming, writing the code, connecting things and making it work? It's not easy because the technology's going faster than the capabilities in terms of people, skills. So the partnership we're building with Informatica professional services, and we're beginning to nurture, inside that, we want to be in a position were Honeywell doesn't have to worry so much about the churn in terms of getting people and retraining and retraining and retraining. We want to have a reliable partner who is also moving with the certain development and the progress around the products that we bought so we can have that success. So the partnership with IPS is for the-- >> The skill gaps we've been talking about, I know she's going to ask next, but I'll just jump in because I know there's two threads here. One is there's a new generation coming into the workforce, okay, and they're all data-full. They've been experiencing the digital lifestyle, the engineering programs. To data, it's all changing. What are some of the new expertise that really stand out when evaluating candidates, both from the Informatica side and also Honeywell? What's the ideal candidate look like, because there's no real four-year degree anymore? Well, Berkeley just had their first class of data analytics. That's new two-generation. But what are some of those skills? There's no degree out there. You can't really get a degree in data yet. >> Do you want to talk about that? >> Sure, I can just kick off with what we're looking at and how we're evolving. First of all, the new graduates are extremely innovative and exciting to bring on. We've been in business for 26 years, so we have a lot of folks that have done some great work. Our retention is through the roof, so it's fun to meld the folks that have been doing things for over 10, 15 years, to see what the folks have new ideas about how to leverage data. The thing I can underscore is it's business and technology, and I think the new grads get that really, really well in terms of data. To them, data's not something that's stored somewhere in the cloud or in a box. It's something that's practically applied for business outcomes, and I think they get that right out of school, and I think they're getting that message loud and clear. Lot of hybrid programs. We do hire direct from college, but we also hire experienced hires. And we look for people that have had degrees that are balanced. So the traditional just CS-only degrees, still very relevant, but we're seeing a lot of people do hybrids because they know they want to understand supply chain along with CS and data. And there are programs around just data, how organizations can really capitalize on that. >> And also we're hearing, too, that having domain expertise is actually just as important as having the coding skills because you got to know what an outcome looks like before you collect the data. You got to know what checkmate is if you're going to play chess. That's the old expression, right? >> I think people with the domain, both the hybrid experience or expertise, are more valuable to the company because maybe from the product perspective, from building products, you could be just a scientist, code the code. But when you come to Honeywell, for example, we want you to be able to understand, think about materials. Want you to be able to understand what are the products, what are the materials that we use. What are the inputs that we have to put into these products? Now a simple thing like a data scientist deciding what the right correct value of what an attribute should be, that's not something that because you know code you can determine. You have to understand the domain, the domain you're dealing with. You have to understand the context. So that comes, the question of context management, understanding the context and bringing it together. That is a big challenge, and I can tell you that's a big gap there. >> Big gap indeed, and understand the business and the data too. >> Yes. >> Charles, Randy, thank you both so much for coming on theCUBE. It's been a great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

from Gillette Stadium in Foxborough Massachusetts it's the cube covering Vita winter warmer 2019 brought to you by silicon angle media hi I'm Stu minimun and this is the cube at V tug winter warmer 2019 at Gillette Stadium home of the New England Patriots the AFC Championship team going to the Super Bowl third year in a row yet again Randall right yeah paying it's my Los Angeles Rams oh so happy to welcome to the program Randall hunt who's a software engineer with AWS did a keynote this morning I believe it was a hundred AWS features in 50 minutes and felt like you we added a couple more than 100 and went a little over 50 minutes but I think we probably hit 57 minutes that was what the slide counter said but yeah I added a couple of the updates since reinvent you know reinvent is not the end of our innovation we continued releasing new stuff after that all right so our program we're not going to be showing JavaScript we're gonna take a deep breath and slow down a little bit because you know our audience absolutely knows Amazon I tell you this show remember like four years ago first time AWS presented me at Microsoft and AWS here and people heard cloud 101 and I was like come on I could have given this presentation and they were walking around like oh my god I just you know found out that you know who you know horseless carriages and I can do that do them and things like this so you know cloud we've been there for a decade but we're still I believe you know day zero day one is what Amazon always likes this is day one it's always day one so there's no way we can shove the entire reinventing keynote into this discussion so you know want to start first Tulsa rent a little bit about yourself your role what you work on and what customers you talk to sure so I studied physics and then I found out physicists don't really make any money so I became a software engineer and I worked at NASA I worked at SpaceX and worked with this company called MongoDB back then it was called Tianjin and then I am an Amazon I was my second time around in Amazon I'm a software engineer there but I'm also a Technical Evangelist and what that means is I get to travel around the world and make make all of the demos and chat with all of our customers and kind of solicit feedback from them and then kind of try to act as the voice of the customer for the service teams whenever I can get them to listen yeah so probably not going to go into open source versus software licensing of things with you because we want to make sure that we can publish I tell you space is one of those things I love it when I've interviewed people that have been in space I've talked to lots of companies that have our code in space Amazon you have I loved you know robotics and space are hard and we make it easy and I kind of laugh cuz I was an engineer as an undergrad I mean I studied a little bit of you know what it takes to break gravity and understand I always love watching you know all the shows about space and track SpaceX would you work for and things like that give me a break you haven't made space easy well I think space as a whole is getting easier this industry is becoming more approachable one of the things that we launched to reinvent this year was a ground station and this is something where if you have an S band or UHF you know satellite and leo which is low Earth orbit or mio which is medium Earth orbit you can basically down stream that data to one of these ground stations which is you know essentially attach to a region you know in this case us East 2 which is in a like Ohio area and you can go and say hey just stream this data into s3 for me or you know let me access this from my V PC which is pretty gnarly if you think about it you know you have a you have an IP address which is a satellite in space yeah I love I worked on replication technology 15 years ago and it was like okay can the application take the ping off the satellite or you know how do we do this so look we're leveraging satellites a little bit more I understand it's a great tagline to make those useful and more readily just you know it's amazing you think about when you think about my availability zones and regions it's now you know that things aren't just on the Terra Firma well I'm looking forward to the first availability zone on the on the moon or on Mars that that'll be you know when we have utopia planitia 1a that'll be the really cool AZ alright we heard the first blue origins working to Mars no well the latency you know if you have 300,000 and fit three hundred fifty thousand kilometers on average between the Earth and the moon so you know you can go around the earth it would speed of light 7.5 times every second to go to the moon is a fool I hang it's like six seven seconds or so so the latency requirements become a little bit harder there I roll more my wrong pin I have I have the Grace Hopper nanosecond which is the wit which is you know curled up and if you follow the white thing it's how long light would take to travel that and it does it in two nanoseconds so you got me I'm a physics lover and love space as does a lot of our audience so bring it down to the thing one of the things that amazon has done really well is I don't need to be a physics geek to be able to use this technology we're having arguments as to you know if I'm starting out or if I want to restart my career today do I go code or heck you know let me just use lambda and all these wonderful things that Amazon have and I might not even need to know traditional coding I mean when I learned programming you know it was you learned logic and wrote lines of code and then when you went to coding it's pulling pieces and modifying things and in the future it's it seems like serverless goes even further along that spectrum I definitely think there's opportunities for folks who have just you know I don't want to say modest coding abilities but people who were kind of you know industry adjacent scientists you know data scientists folks like that who may not necessarily be software engineers or have the they couldn't recite in Big O notation for mergesort and things like that from scratch you know but they know how to write basic code there's a lot of opportunity now for those developers and I'll call them developers to go and write a lambda function and just have it accomplishing a large portion of their business logic for their whole company I think the you know you have a spectrum of compute options you have you know ec2 on the one side and then you have containers and then as you move towards service you get this this you know spectrum between Fargate and lambda and lambda being the the chief level of abstraction but I I think in a couple cases you can you know even go further than that with things like amplify which is a service that well it's an open source project that we launched and it's also a service that we launched and it takes together a bunch of different AWS services things like app sank and kognito and lambda and it merges them all together with one CLI call you can go and say hey spin up a static site for me like a Hugo static site or something and it'll build the code pipeline build all that stuff for you without you having to you know worry about all the stuff and if developers are starting new today you know I remember when I started I really had to go deep on some of the networking stuff you know I had to learn all these different routers and like how to program them and these like the industry router so you know the million dollar ones and having to rack and stack this stuff and the knowledge is not really needed to operate of large-scale enterprise you know if you if you know a Ralph's table and you you you know V pcs you know you can run you know a multi-billion dollar company if you want yeah it's been interesting to watch too and you know I think the last five years the proliferation of services in AWS got to a point where is like oh my gosh if I wanted to kind of configure a server for my datacenter or configure an equivalent something that I wanted at AWS there was more choices in the public cloud than there was there and people like oh my gosh how do I learn it how do I do this but what we start to see is it's more don't need to do that because what do I want to do if there's an application that I can run where services that will help make it easier for me to do that because the whole it's not let me replicate what I was doing here and do it there but I have to kind of start with a clean sheet of paper and say okay well what what's the goal what data do I need what applications do I need to build and start there I'm curious what you see and how do you help companies through that so that this is a really common scenario so I this is a kind of key point here is enterprises and companies have existed since before the cloud was really around so why do we keep seeing so much uptick why do we keep seeing so many customers moving into the cloud and how do we make it easier for customers to get into the cloud with their existing workloads so along that same spectrum if you have greenfield projects if I were running my own company and I were doing everything I would absolutely start in the cloud and I would build everything as kind of cloud native and if you want to migrate these existing workloads that's part of the one of the things that we launched this year in partnership with VMware is VMware kind of interface for AWS so you can use your native vCenter and vSphere kind of control plane to access EBS to access route 53 and ec2 and all the other kind of underlying stuff that you are interested in run it you can even do RDS on VMware in my environment so that line is definitely blurring between my stuff and my stuff somewhere else and when people are talking about migrating workloads right you know you can take the lowest hanging fruit the most orthogonal piece of your infrastructure and you can say hey let me take this piece as an experimental proof of concept workload and what kind of lift and shift it into the cloud and then let me build the accoutrement the glue and all the other stuff that kind of is associated with that workload cloud native and you'll get additional agility your you know 1:1 ops person can manage this whole suite of things across 19 20 regions of AWS and you know there's kind of global availability and all this kind of good stuff that typically comes with the cloud and in addition to that as you keep moving more and more workloads over it's not like it's a static thing you know you can evolve you can adjust the application you can add new features and you can build new stuff as your move these applications over to the cloud yeah and it's interesting because just the dynamics are changing so much so there's been there's still so much movement to the cloud and then oh well some people I'm pulling stuff back and then you see you have a WS outposts so later 2019 we expect to Amazon to have you know footprint in people's environments and then you know Jeff just to make things even more complicated well the whole edge computing IOT and the like which you know everything from snowball and these pieces so the answer is it gets even more complicated but you know your your AWS I know is trying to help simplify this for use right the board I think I can say anything at all about AWS it's that if a customer is asking us to build something we are gonna do our best to make that customer happy we take customer feedback so incredibly seriously in all of our meetings all of our service team meetings you know we that voice of the customer is very strong and so if people are saying hey I want a AWS in my own datacenter you know that's kind of the genesis of outpost and it's this idea that well we have this control plane we have this hardware let's figure out how we can get it to more customers and customers are saying hey I want into my data center I want to just be able to plug in some fiber and plug in some power and I want it to work and that's the idea right we're gonna when I think of every company that I've watched there's usually something that people will gripe about and what I've been very impressed with Amazon Amazon absolutely listens and moves pretty fast to be able to address things and if you see you know if I'm a competitor of Amazon I'm like oh well you know this is the way that we get in there you know where we think we have an advantage chances are that Amazon is addressing it looking to you know move past it and you know absolutely the Amazon of 2019 is sure not the Amazon of 2018 or you know when you thought about it you know 2015 and it's big challenge for people as to because usually I think of something and you never get a second chance to make a first impression but it changes so much right everything changes that you know I need to revisit it it's like oh well this is the way I do things well Amazon has five different ways you can do that now um you know which one fits you best and I think that's important is different applications gonna have different characteristics that you want to be able to pull in and run in different ways yeah you know honestly I'm a huge fan of service I I think service is where a ton of different workloads are going to move into the future and I just see more and more companies migrating their existing you know everything from elastic Beanstalk applications so like vdq you know VMware images into the service environment and I like seeing that kind of uptick and someone recently I I can't remember who it was someone sent me a screenshot of their console with their ec2 instances in 2010 and maybe it was part of this 10-year challenge thing on Twitter where it's 2009 versus 2019 but they sent me you know they're in one large and the screenshot of the console from back then and they sent me a screenshot of 2019 and Wow things really have changed and you don't really notice it as much when you're using it every day but I can imagine you know their their Ops teams where they haven't logged into the console in three years because you know everything is done kind of in an automated fashion they set up their auto scaling group you know three years ago and then the only time they ever log in is to update to new instance types or something for the cost savings and I get messages on Twitter sometimes from people who are like whoa console got an update this is so cool and then sometimes we we get messages from people where you know we changed the EBS volume snapshotting things we had somebody who had it was like 130,000 EBS snapshots or something and they were like hey you removed my ability for me to select multiple snapshots it what it's like well you have a hundred and thirty thousand so we went in into the UI and we added a little icon that works better for large groups of snapshots you know if there's a customer pain point we will do everything we can to address it all right Randall Hunt really appreciate you sharing with us your experience what's going on with customers and absolutely that 10-year challenge we know things change fast we used to measure in decades I say now it's usually more like you know 18 to 24 months before between everything AWS in 2029 it's gonna be crazy and I can't I can't imagine what its gonna look like then all right well the cube we started broadcasting from in 2010 we appreciate you staying with us through 2019 check out the cube net for all of our programming I'm Stu minimun and thanks so much for watching the key